#################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!cliffs.rs.itd.umich.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.wctc.net!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Books on NeXTSTEP and NeXTSTEP programming Date: 30 Dec 1996 21:34:38 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 41 Message-ID: <5a9che$g8n@duke.squonk.net> References: <5a4u1e$5b2@nr1.vancouver.istar.net> <5a7rth$sq4@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:48736 comp.sys.next.programmer:21226 rhayden@next.com (Ronald Hayden) wrote: > NeXT provides a number of books using the updated OpenStep API. You can > find out about these on NeXT's Pubs Catalog page: > > http://www.next.com/Pubs/PubsCatalog.html > > All ordering info (including phone and part #s) is available at: > > http://www.next.com/Pubs/PubsOrderForm.html > > In particular, I recommend our new "Discovering OPENSTEP: A > Developer Tutorial" for newcomers. It is our most complete > OPENSTEP tutorial ever, and delves into quite a lot of detail > using a very visual and readable approach. I recommend getting > the Windows version -- we put it out a couple of months later > than the Mach version, and had a chance to make some improvements. rhayden@next.com (Ronald Hayden) also wrote: > I should also mention that Nik Gervae was long a writer at NeXT, > and that Nancy Craighill worked with us as a contract writer/editor > while she was doing her book. Therefore I anticipate that both > their books should be very accurate and useful. > > As a public service, here are the URLs you can use to order their > books from Amazon: > > OpenStep for Enterprises, by Nancy Craighill > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0471308595/1826-4740401-062042 > > Developing Business Applications With OpenStep > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=038794852X/1826-4740401-062042 These are useful pointers, thanks. (it just occurred to me that this thread would probably be useful to see in comp.sys.next.programmer too, since csn.advocacy is getting so busy...). --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!btnet!btnet-feed2!unlisys!cs.tu-berlin.de!marcel From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 30 Dec 1996 23:30:50 GMT Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.149.17.109 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19936 comp.sys.next.programmer:21227 "Lawson English" writes: >John Kheit said: >>DPS doesn't convert anything...that's why it's a UNIFIED imaging >>system. The truest WYSIWYG possible. The EXACT SAME INFORMATION >>that is used on the screen is sent to the printer. No translation. >> [...discussion of number formats deleted...] >That should settle the issue, I think. Unless you can raise some subtle >point that I've missed, if you raise the point again, I'll consider it pure >FUD on your part, and treat you accordingly. Hmm...I am probably being totally moronic here, but converting between different graphics formats usually involves a lot more than just fixed/floating point conversions. Not doing any conversion at all will always be the optimum for maintaining fidelity, no matter what. Also, fixed number formats start running into problems when you have (a) applications that scale the coordinate system to have convenient units and (b) documents with scaled coordinates are nested. Let's face it, any fixed limit is one someone will run into, someday (can you say 'millenium bug'?). Regards, Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 30 Dec 1996 17:52:05 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.169 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19937 comp.sys.next.programmer:21228 Marcel Weiher said: "Lawson English" writes: >>That should settle the issue, I think. Unless you can raise some subtle >>point that I've missed, if you raise the point again, I'll consider it pure >>FUD on your part, and treat you accordingly. > >Hmm...I am probably being totally moronic here, but converting >between different graphics formats usually involves a lot more >than just fixed/floating point conversions. Not doing any >conversion at all will always be the optimum for maintaining >fidelity, no matter what. True enough. But within the limits of any conceivable display system, 16.16 fixed point should do fine. > >Also, fixed number formats start running into problems when you >have (a) applications that scale the coordinate system to have >convenient units and (b) documents with scaled coordinates are >nested. Let's face it, any fixed limit is one someone will >run into, someday (can you say 'millenium bug'?). > a) shouldn't apply unless you are talking about convenient units that need more than what is available under a range of 0 to ffff.ffff. b) might be a problem. I am not familiar with "nesting documents." I would think that such issues wouldn't apply in a hypothetical GX-based GhostScript server anyway because only the final results would need to be converted to GX fixed-point format for display/printing. The intermediate values could be stored in float or double format for greater accuracy until the actual rendering was done. I'd be greatly surprised if GX didn't do this anyway for some things, like rotation. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!uucp6.uu.net!world!news From: jspool@uie.com (Jared M. Spool) Subject: Two Courses on Product Usability Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: <32c882be.5226003@news.std.com> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 03:16:18 GMT Reply-To: jspool@uie.com Nntp-Posting-Host: world.std.com Organization: User Interface Engineerng X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/16.230 Lines: 1 Next #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Faster emulators and modern kernels Date: 30 Dec 1996 23:16:14 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5a9ifu$586@usenet.rpi.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:174272 comp.sys.next.programmer:21230 Clifford T. Matthews wrote: > If you're talking about emulating a Mac, there's no need to do > all that. Executor 2's synthetic CPU is rock solid (Executor > 2's limitations come from our avoidance of Apple ROMs and the > Apple System File). Check out > > ftp://ftp.ardi.com/pub/SynPaper.ps > and ftp://ftp.ardi.com/pub/MacHack_96/MacHack_96.ps > > Basically, because 68040s maintain separate instruction and data > caches, applications that run on them have to explicitly address > the cache when they modify code. That allows emulators a lot of > leeway. This touches upon a topic that I did not think of until recently. For this emulation stuff to work, Apple is going to need to emulate PowerPC code as well as 680x0 code. Does Executor have any hooks for that? --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!158.250.39.26!Gamma.RU!srcc!demos!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!usenet From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 31 Dec 1996 09:02:30 GMT Organization: Best Internet Communications Lines: 61 Message-ID: <5aakr6$ctn@nntp1.best.com> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp.jumpgate.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00002 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19942 comp.sys.next.programmer:21231 On 12/30/96, "Lawson English" wrote: >John Kheit said: > >>rex@mit.edu (Eric King) wrote: >>> GX converts shapes to Postscript every time one of its >>> printer drivers prints. GX was designed from the beginning >>> to be translatable to Postscript. >> >>DPS doesn't convert anything...that's why it's a UNIFIED imaging >>system. The truest WYSIWYG possible. The EXACT SAME INFORMATION >>that is used on the screen is sent to the printer. No translation. >> > >Let's put this in perspective: > >DPS uses 32-bit floats, or so I understand, to supply parameters for >display. > >GX uses signed 32-bit fixed point numbers. That gives one an accuracy of > >16-bits per ***PIXEL***, > >when printing. > >Unless you know of a printer that can print 1,000,000+ DPI, the difference >between fixed and float is meaningless for this usage. > >Unless you can point to a real-world program that deals with 32,000 pixel >long images, the difference is meaningless. > >Unless you are using fixed-point numbers for calculations (something that >is done in games, on occassion), there is going to be absolutely NO >discernable difference in output between GX display and DPS display, and GX >printing and DPS printing, of any arbitrary graphics primitive or >combination of graphics primitives. > >NONE. Nada. > >Period. > >That should settle the issue, I think. Unless you can raise some subtle >point that I've missed, if you raise the point again, I'll consider it pure >FUD on your part, and treat you accordingly. Hmm.... how about on a 3600DPI Imagesetter printing a 17" by 9' (feet) image? That would be 61200 dots across (well outside the range of 16.16 signed fixed point) by 388,800 dots long (REALLY outside the range of 16.16). I know someone who has printed things like that on a Mac using a PostScript imagesetter. And he has heard of systems that go up to 5000DPI. -Ken #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!cs.tu-berlin.de!marcel From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 31 Dec 1996 09:34:32 GMT Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5aamn8$27s$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.149.17.116 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19943 comp.sys.next.programmer:21232 "Lawson English" writes: >Marcel Weiher said: >>Hmm...I am probably being totally moronic here, but converting >>between different graphics formats usually involves a lot more >>than just fixed/floating point conversions. Not doing any >>conversion at all will always be the optimum for maintaining >>fidelity, no matter what. >True enough. But within the limits of any conceivable display system, 16.16 >fixed point should do fine. Hmmm...let's try this again: Converting between different graphics formats involves a lot _more_ than just number/coordinate conversions. Any conversion, even if it is absolutely the greatest ever implemented is more likely to have problems than _no_ conversion. Just like the fastest and only 100% guaranteed bug-free routine is the one that didn't have to be implemented. >> >>Also, fixed number formats start running into problems when you >>have (a) applications that scale the coordinate system to have >>convenient units and (b) documents with scaled coordinates are >>nested. Let's face it, any fixed limit is one someone will >>run into, someday (can you say 'millenium bug'?). >> >a) shouldn't apply unless you are talking about convenient units that need >more than what is available under a range of 0 to ffff.ffff. Let's take a CAD application that uses PS-points (72dpi/screen resolution) as its base coordinate system. Now you want to draw an aircraft carrier and you have just overflowed the range of the coordinate system. Of course you still have lots of precision left, so you _could_ have rescaled everything. But maintaining two sets of coordinates is really too much of a hassle. >b) might be a problem. I am not familiar with "nesting documents." Application A generates an EPS E, which is included by Program P into illustration I (also saved as EPS) which is then imported into Layout App L. Etc. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.dra.com!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!seer.demon.co.uk!news From: Paul_Lynch@griffin.plsys.co.uk (Paul Lynch) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Tcl/Tk Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 09:40:29 GMT Organization: P & L Systems Lines: 13 Sender: news@seer.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <1996Dec31.094029.21667@seer.demon.co.uk> References: <5a986r$ipf@ecom3.ecn.bgu.edu> Reply-To: Paul_Lynch@griffin.plsys.co.uk X-Mail2News-User: news@seer.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: plsys.co.uk!seer.demon.co.uk In article <5a986r$ipf@ecom3.ecn.bgu.edu> bihkrch@uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Raymond Chu) writes: > Has anyone built Tcl/Tk on Openstep 4.0? > I wanted to hear of any pitfalls before I got started. Before you do, look at Scott Hess' TickleServices (on all the archives) and http://www.tiptop.com. Paul -- Paul Lynch (NeXTmail) http://www.plsys.co.uk/~paul #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:28:29 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 26 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5a476h$1el@precipice.fdn.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article <5a476h$1el@precipice.fdn.fr> hugues@precipice.fdn.fr (Hugues RICHARD) writes: > In the case of "DPS or GX", I think it musn't be "DPS or GX" but "DPS > *and* GX"... > Apple's current drawing architecture has one fundamental flaw (aside from the fact it can't remote display ;-)) IT'S NOT DEVICE INDEPENDANT. My 6 year old NeXT monostation can run EVERYTHING I throw at it. I've never seen an app refuse to run because it didn't like the display. (or infact for any hardware reason - in fact if anything, MORE apps run on the old hardware than the new!). DPS scales from 2bit mono to 32bit colour (with alpha) without ANY programmer intervention. My 2 year old powerbook is crippled by it's display - not because it physically isn;t good enough, but because so many apps whine that they need a certain colour model or depth. Worse - many which do run are unuusable because the colour model isn't mapped correctly - everything comes out black on black. NeXT is the only platform I've seen achieve this - X is terrible, and DOS is pretty bad. $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-admin From: paul@pth.com (Paul Haddad) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Ring Line not supported by NeXT serial port drivers??? Date: 31 Dec 1996 16:17:26 GMT Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5abeam$khm@news.internetmci.com> Reply-To: paul@pth.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phaddad.metro.mci.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Hi, I've been working on some code that reads the lines of a serial port and it appears to me that the NeXT Intel serial port driver (v3.3) doesn't support the TIOCM_RNG line. I thought this was some kind of OS problem but I switched to the MUX driver (v1.7) and much to my surprise it works with no problems. Has anybody else experienced this problem or am I doing something else? Also anybody know if this problem occurs with Black or Sun hardware? Thanks, -- Paul Haddad #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!shelob.afs.com!news From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 31 Dec 1996 16:47:46 GMT Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5abg3i$jds@shelob.afs.com> References: Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.203 "Lawson English" writes > That should settle the issue, I think. Unless you can raise some subtle > point that I've missed, if you raise the point again, I'll consider it > pure FUD on your part, and treat you accordingly. To my many dear friends on c.s.n.programming: I just wanted to warn those of you that don't read the advocacy groups and don't subscribe to the Mac developer mailing list that this guy Lawson is a serious time sink. As I described it yesterday in a different forum, it's just as futile as arguing over Biblical scripture with the Jehovah's Witness at your front door: His job is to evangelize the Gospel, he has a prepared semi-relevant response for everything you might think to say, and meanwhile the roast is burning in the oven. Don't take the bait. You've been warned. -- Gregory H. Anderson | "I wander'd off by myself, In the Crystal Ball/Star Gazer | mystical moist night-air, and from Anderson Financial Systems | time to time, Look'd up in perfect greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | silence at the stars." Walt Whitman #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.70.231.3!spstimes.sps.mot.com!newsdist.sps.mot.com!risc.sps.mot.com!ibmoto.com!news From: tim@apple.com (Tim Olson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Faster emulators and modern kernels Date: 31 Dec 1996 15:58:48 GMT Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. / Somerset Lines: 15 Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[8230] Message-ID: <5abd7o$921@cerberus.ibmoto.com> References: <5a9ifu$586@usenet.rpi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.38.60.33 X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.7@129.38.60.33 Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name. Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:174495 comp.sys.next.programmer:21237 In article <5a9ifu$586@usenet.rpi.edu> Garance A Drosehn writes: > This touches upon a topic that I did not think of until recently. > For this emulation stuff to work, Apple is going to need to > emulate PowerPC code as well as 680x0 code. Does Executor have > any hooks for that? PowerPC emulation would only be required if you weren't running natively on a PowerPC processor. In a "compatibility box" scenerio, you need to virtualize the machine, not necessarily the processor. -- Tim Olson Apple Computer, Inc. (tim@apple.com) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.enteract.com!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 31 Dec 1996 13:10:04 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <5aamn8$27s$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.248 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19950 comp.sys.next.programmer:21238 Marcel Weiher said: >>a) shouldn't apply unless you are talking about convenient units that need >>more than what is available under a range of 0 to ffff.ffff. > >Let's take a CAD application that uses PS-points (72dpi/screen resolution) >as its base coordinate system. Now you want to draw an aircraft carrier >and you have just overflowed the range of the coordinate system. Of >course you still have lots of precision left, so you _could_ have >rescaled everything. But maintaining two sets of coordinates is really >too much of a hassle. > I'm sorry. Do you REALLY think that PS doesn't switch between float and integer internally, as needed? >>b) might be a problem. I am not familiar with "nesting documents." > >Application A generates an EPS E, which is included by Program P >into illustration I (also saved as EPS) which is then imported >into Layout App L. Etc. That is an issue for a GhostScript interpreter. We're talking *output* here. How things are stored internally in an interpreter is entirely a different matter. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 31 Dec 1996 13:07:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5aakr6$ctn@nntp1.best.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.248 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19951 comp.sys.next.programmer:21239 Kenneth C. Dyke responded: [I claimed that 16.16 was enough for any conceivable printing task] > >Hmm.... how about on a 3600DPI Imagesetter printing a 17" by 9' (feet) >image? That would be 61200 dots across (well outside the range of >16.16 signed fixed point) by 388,800 dots long (REALLY outside the >range of 16.16). I know someone who has printed things like that >on a Mac using a PostScript imagesetter. And he has heard of systems >that go up to 5000DPI. Hmmm... With scaling, 16.16 allows for 2^32 dots in each direction. a 2^14 (16,384) DPI printer would still leave 2^18 inches on the side, which is actually 131,072 inches, or 10,922.666667 feet on the side... I guess "We are sorry for the inconvenience" in 42 mile high letters (or whatever it was) would be beyond the range of GX's ability to print properly, but aside from a deity's need to apologize for creating the universe, I still don't see your point. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 31 Dec 1996 20:35:26 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 139 Message-ID: <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19953 comp.sys.next.programmer:21240 "Lawson English" wrote: > John Kheit said: > >rex@mit.edu (Eric King) wrote: > >> GX converts shapes to Postscript every time one of its > >> printer drivers prints. GX was designed from the beginning > >> to be translatable to Postscript. > > > >DPS doesn't convert anything...that's why it's a UNIFIED imaging > >system. The truest WYSIWYG possible. The EXACT SAME INFORMATION > >that is used on the screen is sent to the printer. No translation. > > There is no other perspective. DPS and PS printers use the same code. GX does not. Period. End of story. > Unless you are using fixed-point numbers for calculations (something > that is done in games, on occassion), there is going to be > absolutely NO discernable difference in output between GX display > and DPS display, and GX printing and DPS printing, of any arbitrary > graphics primitive or combination of graphics primitives. > NONE. Nada. > Period. > That should settle the issue, I think. Unless you can raise some > subtle point that I've missed, if you raise the point again, I'll > consider it pure FUD on your part, and treat you accordingly. The FUD has turned into pure fantasy on your part. There is one BIG difference you fail to note. I print on a DPS system, it PRINTS. Period. No problems. The same is not true of GX. Every PS file I pumpt to DPS prints...the same is not true of GX. That is the harsh reality. The harsh reality is that ms word, the biggest wp on the mac, pukes with gx often enough that gx is removed at universities. Period end of story. That you constantly ignore these facts seems to indicate you don't care about the reality users face. > Do you really think that having optimized "atomic" functions that > make use of cached font/color/compososit/transform are going to > be the same speed as having a class library, with all the overhead > of OOP, implement the same functionality, and THEN calling Display > PostScript? Dunno, depends on the implementation. > >You know why I don't -ASSUME- DPS is better for DTP than GX... > >B/C I can't friggn print a simple memo out with GX installed > >without it puking up all over the place. I KNOW DPS is currently > >much more usable. > > > That's a function of the app you are using, using an out-moded, > poorly documented, print model that GX is trying to cope with. > Probably a Microsoft product. See, under DPS and NeXTSTEP, it isn't a function of the app. All apps just print. Period. No problems. > >Dunno, I have no problems using all kinds of compositing modes > >with transparency under DPS, using different color models. > We're talking printing it out here, in case you missed. Didn't miss it, you were speaking of transparencies alone. DPS3 might fix this. Also, several times people mentioned that they developed ways to print transparencies under DPS and NeXTSTEP. > And GX has 4 more compositing modes than DPS, and you can do > things with GX inks that appear next to impossible with DPS. I haven't seen an example yet. Again, these are all minor issues dwarfed by the fact GX routinely pukes printing basic documents; and furthermore that may be all together taken care of by DPS3. > GX provides features that DPS doesn't. It provides speed that > DPS doesn't. It translates all DPS-esque graphics primitives > directly into PostScript when printing. Until it provides reliable printing, all the above are useless... > Shareware GX => PS and PS => GX translators exist, and pretty > much prove that PS provides a subset of GX's features. If you understand the concepts of turing languages, you'll understand that all of GX can be done in dps as well... > >> Think video/multimedia/web effects. A company is about to > >> release a GX-based video editing and effects package. > >> Realtime effects and transitions. I rarely see a need to > >> print a Quicktime Movie ;) Same goes for web graphics and > >> multimedia apps. > > > >DPS has had this since 1988 (if not sooner). Any folks remember > >those cool DPS .movie files? > > > There are real-time commercial movie editors for TV commercials > available using DPS calls on NeXT? No the apps never materialized b/c of the small market. But the effects in re-time were done back then in DPS. The capability is there...just no developers to take advantage... > I'm impressed. Somehow I don't believe you ;) > >> Today not everything in the DTP world is being printed. ;) > > > >Just most. > Mmmmm... Multi-media presentations, web-publishing, games graphics > design... If you doubt MOST things are still printed to good ole paper...well, I guess that's just par for the course. -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!207.76.102.250!newman.pcisys.net!news From: root@bytewarecafe.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: 32meg 70ns 72pin EDO simm for $140 Date: 31 Dec 1996 20:41:59 GMT Organization: bytewarecafe.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5abtqn$82k@newman.pcisys.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.76.102.212 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] We are a new site on the internet and we can supply your hardware needs. As a promotion to get our name out to you, we are running a special promotion on 32Meg simms. For a very limited time, we are selling 32Meg/70ns EDO simms for just 140+shipping and handling, delivered to your door within 2-3 days. Just go to our site www.bytewarecafe.com and fill out the necessary information about yourself and your credit card information. Goto the products list and choose the memory item. From here, select the memory you want and click on the invoice button to see your total charges. If you wish to browse the other hardware categories, feel free to browse for as long as you wish. If you wish to buy anything else, just select that item from that category. If you are satisfied with your selection(s) and your personal information is correct, click on the submit order button. The bytewarecafe.com server will respond with an order number and a time stamp. You will need these two numbers for any future correspondences with bytewarecafe.com Your order will be prepared and delivered to your door within 2-3 days. Thank you. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!207.76.102.250!newman.pcisys.net!news From: root@bytewarecafe.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: 32meg 70ns 72pin EDO simm for $140 Date: 31 Dec 1996 20:42:00 GMT Organization: bytewarecafe.com Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5abtqo$82k@newman.pcisys.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.76.102.212 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] We are a new site on the internet and we can supply your hardware needs. As a promotion to get our name out to you, we are running a special promotion on 32Meg simms. For a very limited time, we are selling 32Meg/70ns EDO simms for just 140+shipping and handling, delivered to your door within 2-3 days. Just go to our site www.bytewarecafe.com and fill out the necessary information about yourself and your credit card information. Goto the products list and choose the memory item. From here, select the memory you want and click on the invoice button to see your total charges. If you wish to browse the other hardware categories, feel free to browse for as long as you wish. If you wish to buy anything else, just select that item from that category. If you are satisfied with your selection(s) and your personal information is correct, click on the submit order button. The bytewarecafe.com server will respond with an order number and a time stamp. You will need these two numbers for any future correspondences with bytewarecafe.com Your order will be prepared and delivered to your door within 2-3 days. Thank you. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.238.120.21!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 17:31:04 -0600 From: mark@oaai.com Subject: Another UI suggestion - since we're at it Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <852072602.2258@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Dec 31 23:23:25 1996 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 199.166.28.100 () X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Windows NT) X-Authenticated-Sender: mark@oaai.com Lines: 85 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:49227 comp.sys.next.programmer:21243 Since someone's started up a thread about UI updates NEXTSTEP could use here's my personal favourite: Inspectors should try harder to accommodate multiple selections than they typically do. If I click on one file in the Workspace Manager and inspect it, I see its properties. If I click on two files, I see the properties of neither - the panel displays "Multiple Selection" instead. Traits and IB: I would love in Interface Builder to be able to select all of my TextFields and set their border style or font in a single interaction with the inspector. To do this in IB, replace the "Attributes" inspector with a dynamic "Traits" inspector. IB objects, instead of registering a single monolithic Attributes inspector can instead register a collection of generic trait editors which can be accumulated in the Traits inspector. [I'm on a roll here, and I'm about to geek-out; casual readers beware :-)] Imagine two dissimilar objects, a text field and an icon well for purposes of argument. Lets enumerate a candidate collection of traits for each: 1) TextField Traits: text value editable/non-editable selectable/non-selectable background color text color border style 2) IconWell Traits: selectable/non-selectable draggable/non-draggable background color border style If I select both of these objects within IB, I should still be able set common traits. So given a Trait Inspector which accumulates common traits for a given selection, the following traits would be displayed in, say, a scrolling list: selectable/non-selectable background color border style What is a Trait then? It's an object which edits a particular aspect of another object. We can categorize the traits above according to this description in the following way: 1) BooleanTraits selectable/non-selectable, draggable/non-draggable, 2) Text Traits text value 3) Color Traits background color, text color 4) Border Traits border style From a reuse perspective it makes better sense to factor the attributes of objects in terms of traits, write litte editors for these, and build attribute inspectors as compositions of these smaller trait editors. Inheritence of the attributes inspectors becomes easier to handle using this scheme. The need for developing new inspectors is diminished. Peace on earth - we could have all of these things :-) [geek-out *off*] There are a lot of areas where the environment could be improved. I humbly submit this one example. Mark -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5abtqo$82k@newman.pcisys.net> Date: 1 Jan 1997 02:27:46 GMT Control: cancel <5abtqo$82k@newman.pcisys.net> Message-ID: Sender: root@bytewarecafe.com X-Cancelled-By: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us X-No-Archive: Yes Approved: y Lines: 3 Spam cancelled. Notice ID: 19970101.11. See news.admin.net-abuse.announce or http://spam.ohww.norman.ok.us/spam_notices/19970101.11.html for complete report. Original Subject: 32meg 70ns 72pin EDO simm for $140 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 31 Dec 1996 19:31:03 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.210 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19959 comp.sys.next.programmer:21244 >The harsh reality is that ms word, the >biggest wp on the mac, pukes with gx often enough that gx is removed >at universities. Period end of story. That you constantly ignore >these facts seems to indicate you don't care about the reality >users face. > (like taking candy from a baby) But YOU are the one who claimed that MS applications produce lousy PS code. Isn't it within the realm of possibility that MS also does shanky non-standard things with Mac print drivers? --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5abtqn$82k@newman.pcisys.net> Date: 1 Jan 1997 02:29:34 GMT Control: cancel <5abtqn$82k@newman.pcisys.net> Message-ID: Sender: root@bytewarecafe.com X-Cancelled-By: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us X-No-Archive: Yes Approved: y Lines: 3 Spam cancelled. Notice ID: 19970101.11. See news.admin.net-abuse.announce or http://spam.ohww.norman.ok.us/spam_notices/19970101.11.html for complete report. Original Subject: 32meg 70ns 72pin EDO simm for $140 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!nntp.earthlink.net!usenet From: help@spry.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: FREE EDUCATIONAL VIDEO/CDs Date: 1 Jan 1997 03:16:41 GMT Organization: Self Help Corp Lines: 9 Message-ID: <5ackup$5g3@chile.earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust102.max4.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net FREE ACCESS: WORLDS LARGEST COLLECTION OF SELF-HELP, EDUCATIONAL, INSRUCTIONAL,AND INFORMATIONAL VIDEO TAPES AND CD ROMs. http://www.totalmarketing.com "IMPORTANT" ACCESS CODE FOR SITE IS "69589" (69589) PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF THIS ACCESS CODE, AS YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO USE SITE WITHOUT IT. " LEARN AT HOME " #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!marcel From: marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 1 Jan 1997 04:54:15 GMT Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5acqln$e5r$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <5aamn8$27s$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: 130.149.17.116 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19963 comp.sys.next.programmer:21246 "Lawson English" writes: >Marcel Weiher said: >>>a) shouldn't apply unless you are talking about convenient units that >need >>>more than what is available under a range of 0 to ffff.ffff. >> >>Let's take a CAD application that uses PS-points (72dpi/screen resolution) >>as its base coordinate system. Now you want to draw an aircraft carrier >>and you have just overflowed the range of the coordinate system. Of >>course you still have lots of precision left, so you _could_ have >>rescaled everything. But maintaining two sets of coordinates is really >>too much of a hassle. >> >I'm sorry. Do you REALLY think that PS doesn't switch between float and >integer internally, as needed? I was talking about the application. What PS does internally is of no concern to me. >>>b) might be a problem. I am not familiar with "nesting documents." >> >>Application A generates an EPS E, which is included by Program P >>into illustration I (also saved as EPS) which is then imported >>into Layout App L. Etc. >That is an issue for a GhostScript interpreter. We're talking *output* >here. How things are stored internally in an interpreter is entirely a >different matter. Well, yes, I forgot. You can't really do that with GX. Darn. Regards, Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5ackup$5g3@chile.earthlink.net> Date: 1 Jan 1997 05:29:15 GMT Control: cancel <5ackup$5g3@chile.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Sender: help@spry.com X-Cancelled-By: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us X-No-Archive: Yes Approved: y Lines: 3 Spam cancelled. Notice ID: 19970101.35. See news.admin.net-abuse.announce or http://spam.ohww.norman.ok.us/spam_notices/19970101.35.html for complete report. Original Subject: FREE EDUCATIONAL VIDEO/CDs #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.160.4!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.sfu.ca!quinlan From: quinlan@sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 1 Jan 1997 06:13:05 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5acv9h$qfd@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fraser.sfu.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #5 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19969 comp.sys.next.programmer:21247 John Kheit writes: >There is no other perspective. DPS and PS printers use the same >code. GX does not. Period. End of story. This is not always true. Sometimes you will have to print to a device with an aspect ratio that is different that that of your window. That may mean that you have to generate different PS code. >The FUD has turned into pure fantasy on your part. There is one >BIG difference you fail to note. I print on a DPS system, it >PRINTS. Period. No problems. The same is not true of GX. Every >PS file I pumpt to DPS prints...the same is not true of GX. That >is the harsh reality. The harsh reality is that ms word, the >biggest wp on the mac, pukes with gx often enough that gx is removed >at universities. Period end of story. That you constantly ignore >these facts seems to indicate you don't care about the reality >users face. The most likely probably is that Microsoft is ignoring Apples printing guidelines. >See, under DPS and NeXTSTEP, it isn't a function of the app. All >apps just print. Period. No problems. Your using absolutes when you shouldn't. I'll be you $10 that I can write a app that doesn't print under NeXTStep. Or are you arguing that all NeXTStep apps that you know of print correctly? That would be irrelevant since Word doesn't run under NeXTStep. -- Brian Quinlan "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac quinlan@sfu.ca user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!netnews.upenn.edu!news.voicenet.com!news From: "Gregory H. Anderson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Another UI suggestion - since we're at it Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 04:22:42 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32CA2CE2.1B04@afs.com> References: <852072602.2258@dejanews.com> Reply-To: greg@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ivyland104.voicenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:49423 comp.sys.next.programmer:21248 mark@oaai.com wrote: > Inspectors should try harder to accommodate multiple selections than they > typically do. If I click on one file in the Workspace Manager and inspect > it, I see its properties. If I click on two files, I see the properties > of neither - the panel displays "Multiple Selection" > instead. This is by far the most important advancement in Delphi's Inspector over NEXTSTEP's. The problem is, NeXT is very dependent on making individual attributes settable through special graphic widgets. Delphi simply builds a two-column matrix with the list of attributes and their current settings. When the objects are not all of the same class, the list of attributes in intersected to show only those which apply to all objects in the selection. Very slick. Greg #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 1 Jan 1997 13:36:55 GMT Organization: NO ORGANIZATION, INC. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5adp9n$p84@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> <5acv9h$qfd@morgoth.sfu.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: quinlan@sfu.ca Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19975 comp.sys.next.programmer:21249 In <5acv9h$qfd@morgoth.sfu.ca> Brian Quinlan wrote: > John Kheit writes: > > >There is no other perspective. DPS and PS printers use the same > >code. GX does not. Period. End of story. > > This is not always true. Sometimes you will have to print to a device > with an aspect ratio that is different that that of your window. That > may mean that you have to generate different PS code. > No. Obviously you do not understand the concepts behind PS. > >See, under DPS and NeXTSTEP, it isn't a function of the app. All > >apps just print. Period. No problems. > > Your using absolutes when you shouldn't. I'll be you $10 that I can > write a app that doesn't print under NeXTStep. Or are you arguing that > all NeXTStep apps that you know of print correctly? That would be > irrelevant since Word doesn't run under NeXTStep. > What he is trying to say it NeXTSTEP do not need a driver in the sense of the MacOS world. The extra step of converting (do not argue... GX has a different representation than PS) is not needed... you'll get the real McCoy. -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 1 Jan 1997 12:35:03 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5acqln$e5r$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.207 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19984 comp.sys.next.programmer:21250 >>That is an issue for a GhostScript interpreter. We're talking *output* >>here. How things are stored internally in an interpreter is entirely a >>different matter. > >Well, yes, I forgot. You can't really do that with GX. Darn. Touche. But you *could* convert it to GX with no problem and obtain all the accuracy that you needed... --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!sol.caps.maine.edu!cwood41 From: cwood41@maine.maine.edu (Christopher Wood) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 01:39:13 -0500 Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: async23.ts-m-merrill.caps.maine.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19987 comp.sys.next.programmer:21251 In article <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net>, jkheit@cnj.digex.net wrote: > The FUD has turned into pure fantasy on your part. There is one > BIG difference you fail to note. I print on a DPS system, it > PRINTS. Period. No problems. The same is not true of GX. Every > PS file I pumpt to DPS prints...the same is not true of GX. That > is the harsh reality. The harsh reality is that ms word, the > biggest wp on the mac, pukes with gx often enough that gx is removed > at universities. Period end of story. That you constantly ignore > these facts seems to indicate you don't care about the reality > users face. I don't think anyone would disagree that Apple's handling of GX so far has been pretty terrible... It's a pain to install, it takes up too much memory, it forces you to convert all your Type 1 fonts (and keep uncoverted copies handy for when you decide to remove GX -- in my experience about 2 - 3 hours after you first install it. And then to add insult to injury there are few mainstream applications that take advantage of it, and far too many that are downright incompatible with it. But all these problems could have been fixed if Apple had continued any serious devolopment on GX. The technology is sound and offers more than any other imaging architecture that I'm aware of. (Issue 15 of develop has a terrific intro to GX for programmers. I think Apple has a copy on their developer web site.) GX's failure isn't due to any inherent flaws in the technology, but to (the old) Apple's lack of will and discipline to develop a new technology beyond the demoware stage. (But maybe they're starting to see the light: I've heard that Apple is working on a new version of GX. And consider what they're doing with Cyberdog, aggressively updating it and (gradually) fixing what's wrong with it and adding what it needs. Is this the same Apple?) Anyway, although I think that GX is the better technology, I'd rather see Apple ship the new OS with DPS and ship it on time, than have a GX-based OS a year late. Besides, it might not be a bad idea for Apple to be getting on Adobe's good side, considering that Adobe's support is going to be critical to the success of the new OS. Just a thought, but would it be possible to layer the GX API (or a subset of it) on top of DPS? Just for the first version(s) of the new OS, I mean. The essential parts of the API would be there, and developers wouldn't have to worry about it becoming obsolete in the immediate future; and as Apple replaced the underlying engine, the overhead of going from GX to DPS would disappear and the additional features of GX would become available. --Chris -- Christopher Wood cwood41@maine.maine.edu D'ohh! <-- in the manner of Homer Simpson #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-dc.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!wesley.videotron.net!wagner.spc.videotron.ca!news From: lutzray@9bit.qc.ca (Raymond Lutz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: sound from NXRecordStream? Date: 1 Jan 1997 21:13:47 GMT Organization: SPC Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5aek2b$t90@wagner.spc.videotron.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: modem24.9bit.qc.ca X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 Hello all I want to play a sound freshly recorded by a NXRecordStream. How? The NXRecordStream passes me a pointer with the soundStream:didRecordData:(void *)data datasize:forBuffer delegate method, what can I do with this pointer? If I allocate a soundStruct, how do I stuff the data in? Do I mess with soundStruct->dataLocation ? If I instanciate a sound, [sound data] will *give* me a pointer, but I want to give a pointer *to* the sound object! 8^| PS: I don't simply use SNDStartRecording() because I want peak information, as [NXSoundDevice getPeakLeft:right:] gives. By the way, what's the difference between (void *) and id ? All those questions probably unveil my C ignorance... 8^) Should I wait MacStep to code all this in QuickDraw GX ? -- Raymond Lutz, lurker extraordinaire and dilettante programmer. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!usenet From: younghoon KIL Newsgroups: comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Calendar and scheduling apps Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 17:04:31 +0900 Organization: KORNET Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32CB6B8F.4F69@soback.kornet.nm.kr> References: <5af43n$8bu@ralph.vnet.net> Reply-To: ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr NNTP-Posting-Host: 168.126.214.37 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=euc-kr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) To: timothy@acm.org Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next:77 comp.sys.next.misc:24088 comp.sys.next.software:26973 comp.sys.next.programmer:21253 comp.sys.next.marketplace:15831 Timothy R Mills wrote: > > What kind of calendar/schedule/group scheduling software exists for > NEXTSTEP? What are the features and costs? Is there anything besides > PencilMeIn? daily planner application - Chronographer 0.85 Dwight Everhart everhart@alterlife.com ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/demos/productivity/Chronographer.0.85.NIHS.b.tar.gz ftp://peanuts.leo.org/pub/comp/platforms/next/Tools/calendars/Chronographer.0.85.NIHS.b.tar.gz group scheduling - Pencil Me In http://www.sarrus.com/PencilMeIn.html http://www.sarrus.com/FTP.html #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!voskovec.radio.cz!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.sfu.ca!quinlan From: quinlan@sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 2 Jan 1997 01:29:14 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5af31a$m2b@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> <5acv9h$qfd@morgoth.sfu.ca> <5adp9n$p84@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: fraser.sfu.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #5 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19995 comp.sys.next.programmer:21254 frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) writes: >No. Obviously you do not understand the concepts behind PS. I may understand more than you think. I am saying that, in cases where you are not doing WYSIWYG printing (for example, you will need to use different PS commands for DPS and for your printer. That means that it is possible for an application to display on a screen correctly but not to print correctly. The original poster claimed that it was absolutely impossible to print incorrectly under NeXTStep. That claim is false. >What he is trying to say it NeXTSTEP do not need a driver in the sense of the >MacOS world. The extra step of converting (do not argue... GX has a different >representation than PS) is not needed... you'll get the real McCoy. You do not need a driver, obviosly, because your printer understands the same PS code as DPS. I am arguing, however, that the problem with GX does not lay with Apple's GX -> PS conversion but Microsoft's non-standard use of Apple's imaging API. -- Brian Quinlan "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac quinlan@sfu.ca user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!mr.net!winternet.com!not-for-mail From: "Nick Nallick" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 1 Jan 97 09:45:23 -0600 Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc Lines: 18 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-66-19.dialup.winternet.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.winternet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.winternet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3, nntp://news.winternet.com/comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant, nntp://news.winternet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10913 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3301 comp.sys.next.programmer:21255 Apparently in a year or so Apple is going to have an object-oriented API via NextStep/OpenStep. As an established Mac frameworks person I haven't had the chance to use the NeXT software, but I'm curious about what level of function it provides. Perhaps the following questions can be answered by someone who has developed for a NeXT system and a Macintosh framework. Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp or PowerPlant on top of OpenStep, or does OpenStep provide all of those functions? For example, how rich is the view system? Is there an application/document model? Would a port of MacApp or PowerPlant be likely to make it easier to move an application written in one of these frameworks to the new Apple OS? Thanks, Nick Nallick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 2 Jan 1997 09:50:59 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5ag0e3$a2r@news4.digex.net> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> <5acv9h$qfd@morgoth.sfu.ca> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19996 comp.sys.next.programmer:21256 quinlan@sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) wrote: > Your using absolutes when you shouldn't. I'll be you $10 that I > can write a app that doesn't print under NeXTStep. Or are you > arguing that all NeXTStep apps that you know of print correctly? > That would be irrelevant since Word doesn't run under NeXTStep. True, nothing in life is absolute. I've used perhaps close to every app under NeXTSTEP... All of them print w/o problems b/c they use the standard print mechanisms that gives them much if not all printing fucntionality for free. If you actually set out TRYING to make something not work, I'm sure you'll succeed...though under NeXTSTEP you'd have to try a bit harder... I have no doubts ms is up to that task however ;) -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 2 Jan 1997 09:55:03 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5ag0ln$a2r@news4.digex.net> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:19997 comp.sys.next.programmer:21257 cwood41@maine.maine.edu (Christopher Wood) wrote: > Just a thought, but would it be possible to layer the GX API (or > a subset of it) on top of DPS? Just for the first version(s) of > the new OS, I mean. The essential parts of the API would be there, > and developers wouldn't have to worry about it becoming obsolete > in the immediate future; and as Apple replaced the underlying > engine, the overhead of going from GX to DPS would disappear and > the additional features of GX would become available. Yes, I think this is reasonably doable... Put much of the GX api in a framework for OpenStep and have DPS do the basic drawing... Likely the quickest way to go... -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!ralph.vnet.net!news From: Timothy R Mills Newsgroups: comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Calendar and scheduling apps Date: 2 Jan 1997 01:47:35 GMT Organization: Vnet Internet Access, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5af43n$8bu@ralph.vnet.net> Reply-To: timothy@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: vts-char1-s6.vnet.net Keywords: calendar, schedule Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next:78 comp.sys.next.misc:24102 comp.sys.next.software:26986 comp.sys.next.programmer:21258 comp.sys.next.marketplace:15833 What kind of calendar/schedule/group scheduling software exists for NEXTSTEP? What are the features and costs? Is there anything besides PencilMeIn? Please email me with any details and contacts. Thanks. Timothy -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Timothy R. Mills 2500 Innsbrook Road timothy@acm.org Charlotte, NC 28226 (NeXT/MIME/ASCII) phone: 704-442-1141 --------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.alt.net!newspost1.alt.net!ehutch From: ehutch@hypnos.norden1.com (E. Hutchinson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,misc.jobs.offered,chi.jobs,ill.jobs Subject: NEXTSTEP/Career Position/ILL Date: 2 Jan 1997 13:44:20 GMT Organization: Norden 1 Communications Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5age3k$l2q@tofu.alt.net> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21259 misc.jobs.offered:1763887 Programmer/analyst/developer NEXTSTEP--------------------Commercial experience Objective C----------------Commercial experience EOF-----------------------A Plus Career Position----------Excellent benefits,working conditions & opp Area--------------------The Greater Chicago Area To Be Considered-------Fax resume or mail a hard copy. -- ehutch@norden1.com (419) 893-6367 [fax] Omni Search (419) 893-6334 [voice] 1310 Craig Maumee, Ohio 43537 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 2 Jan 1997 09:46:30 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5ag05m$a2r@news4.digex.net> References: <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20009 comp.sys.next.programmer:21260 "Lawson English" wrote: > >The harsh reality is that ms word, the biggest wp on the mac, > >pukes with gx often enough that gx is removed at universities. > >Period end of story. That you constantly ignore these facts > >seems to indicate you don't care about the reality users face. > (like taking candy from a baby) > But YOU are the one who claimed that MS applications produce > lousy PS code. Isn't it within the realm of possibility that MS > also does shanky non-standard things with Mac print drivers? Well regardless of how crappy their PS code is, it does still manage to PRINT! I absolutely agree with you that ms is poop, however, apple knowing that ms might be doing the equivelent of sabotaging their platform...since it is the most widely used wp on the platform might have GX 'spoof' word by turning itself off for compatibility sake... Have GX init allow the user add apps to have GX disable itself for compatibility sake...that way I can have it installed all the time and apps that do take advantage great... but it would still let me use my main apps... BTW, just try and take some candy from me...you'll get what a baby might leave, just in bigger doses :) -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!chi-news.cic.net!dragonfly.wolfram.com!usenet From: stes@wolfram.com (David Stes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 2 Jan 1997 16:07:47 GMT Organization: Wolfram Research, Inc. Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5agmgj$6md@dragonfly.wolfram.com> References: Reply-To: stes@wolfram.com NNTP-Posting-Host: newt.wolfram.com "Nick Nallick" writes > > Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp > or PowerPlant on top of OpenStep, or does OpenStep provide all of those > functions? For example, how rich is the view system? Is there an > application/document model? > There are two different frameworks. OpenStep's framework, and the NextStep application kit. The latter is discussed in a book like e.g. Pinson & Wiener's "Objective C - Object-Oriented Programming Techniques". It's based upon a very well thought-out trio of objects, "View", "Window" and "Application". Clipping, coordinate transformations etc. are all handled very elegantly by a "chain of Views". Centered around this architecture, there are all sorts of Control classes, Font support, PrintPanel etc. It's good stuff. There is no Document object (there is a WhatsUpDoc mini-example nevertheless), but I recall a posting of William Parkhurst in 1991 about adding "generalized document handling" perhaps to future versions of the appkit (if I recall correctly, thread-safe operation, a document architecture etc. were a few of the items he mentionned at a BaNG meeting, as possible extensions of the appkit). But it didn't really happen yet (except for WhatsUpDoc), I think. -- David Stes E-mail: stes@wolfram.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!en.com!news.dgsys.com!sloth.swcp.com!usenet From: Clifford T. Matthews Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Faster emulators and modern kernels Date: 02 Jan 1997 11:46:49 -0700 Organization: ARDI Lines: 51 Sender: ctm@ftp.ardi.com Message-ID: References: <5a9ifu$586@usenet.rpi.edu> <5abd7o$921@cerberus.ibmoto.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gw.ardi.com In-reply-to: tim@apple.com's message of 31 Dec 1996 15:58:48 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:175381 comp.sys.next.programmer:21262 >>>>> "Tim" == Tim Olson writes: In article <5abd7o$921@cerberus.ibmoto.com> tim@apple.com (Tim Olson) writes: Tim> In article <5a9ifu$586@usenet.rpi.edu> Garance A Drosehn Tim> writes: >> This touches upon a topic that I did not think of until >> recently. For this emulation stuff to work, Apple is going to >> need to emulate PowerPC code as well as 680x0 code. Does >> Executor have any hooks for that? Tim> PowerPC emulation would only be required if you weren't Tim> running natively on a PowerPC processor. In a "compatibility Tim> box" scenerio, you need to virtualize the machine, not Tim> necessarily the processor. Right. For example, Executor/NEXTSTEP/680x0 uses the native 680x0 to do its work, for instance (but it, like other Executor 2 instantiations, doesn't run any PPC specific code). For Apple's flagship product, a PPC based system running a NEXTSTEP derived OS, there's no need for additional processor emulation and little, if any, need for any work that ARDI's done. The compatibility box would be constructed so that the native PPC processor handles the PPC code, and the existing 68k emulator for the PPC would be used for the 68k emulation. OTOH, NEXTSTEP already runs nicely on Intel based computers, and that's where the technology that ARDI uses in Executor could be useful. The synthetic CPU that's shipping in Executor 2 only emulates 68k, but Mat Hostetter has already done much work on a successor that could emulate 68k and PPC simultaneously, although it's not clear that such capability would ever be needed. *If* Apple embraces the multi-architecture nature of NEXTSTEP, then software written for the new OS will be "fat" and not need to run under emulation. So that leaves the question of what to do about PPC compatibility on non-PPC machines in the interim. One possible answer would be "nothing". After all, people are getting along fine now without the ability to run PPC based apps on Intel based machines. PPC based machines are cheap enough and contribute to Apple's bottom line enough for it to make sense to just point people in that direction when they absolutely need a PPC specific app. Tim> -- Tim Olson Apple Computer, Inc. (tim@apple.com) --Cliff ctm@ardi.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!jupiter.dnai.com!news From: Jeff Hoekman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: need NumToString( ) equivalent Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 07:47:48 -0800 Organization: DNAI ( Direct Network Access ) Lines: 5 Message-ID: <32CBD897.5E82@dnai.com> Reply-To: jeffh@dnai.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.138.252.176 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Does anyone know an easy way to convert integers or floating point number to character strings? Thank you, Jeff Hoekman #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!ctp.com!news From: "Georg Tuparev" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Python for NS.4.x Date: 2 Jan 1997 18:08:11 GMT Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5agtib$n3b@concorde.ctp.com> Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com NNTP-Posting-Host: haring.nl.ctp.com Folks! Does anybody already compiled Python 1.4 on NS 4.x? Tnx -- ------- /\/\ Georg Tuparev / /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners \ / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15 \/\/ 1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel: +31(20)575-0492 Fax: +31(20)575-0500 WWW: http://www.ctp.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:51:52 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <19970102145152369323@roxboro-169.interpath.net> References: <5a476h$1el@precipice.fdn.fr> <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> <5ag05m$a2r@news4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-169.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b7 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20021 comp.sys.next.programmer:21265 John Kheit wrote: ] "Lawson English" wrote: ] > >The harsh reality is that ms word, the biggest wp on the mac, ] > >pukes with gx often enough that gx is removed at universities. ] > >Period end of story. That you constantly ignore these facts ] > >seems to indicate you don't care about the reality users face. ] ] > (like taking candy from a baby) ] > But YOU are the one who claimed that MS applications produce ] > lousy PS code. Isn't it within the realm of possibility that MS ] > also does shanky non-standard things with Mac print drivers? ] ] Well regardless of how crappy their PS code is, it does still manage ] to PRINT! I absolutely agree with you that ms is poop, however, ] apple knowing that ms might be doing the equivelent of sabotaging ] their platform...since it is the most widely used wp on the platform ] might have GX 'spoof' word by turning itself off for compatibility ] sake... Have GX init allow the user add apps to have GX disable ] itself for compatibility sake...that way I can have it installed ] all the time and apps that do take advantage great... but it would ] still let me use my main apps... It DOES do this, but you have to install the QuickDraw(tm) GX Helper system extension. This will add a menu under the apple (and under the about menu) which says Turn Desktop Printing Off - which turns of GX for the frontmost application. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 2 Jan 1997 13:02:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.189 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20023 comp.sys.next.programmer:21266 Christopher Wood said: >Just a thought, but would it be possible to layer the GX API (or a subset >of it) on top of DPS? Just for the first version(s) of the new OS, I mean. >The essential parts of the API would be there, and developers wouldn't have >to worry about it becoming obsolete in the immediate future; and as Apple >replaced the underlying engine, the overhead of going from GX to DPS would >disappear and the additional features of GX would become available. > That would be doable, but I would suspect it to be dog-slow. You'd have the GX to DPS overhead, PLUS the DPS over head, PLUS the loss of all the optimizations (there are many) of GX. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 2 Jan 1997 13:03:03 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5ag0ln$a2r@news4.digex.net> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.189 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20024 comp.sys.next.programmer:21267 John Kheit said: > >Yes, I think this is reasonably doable... Put much of the GX api >in a framework for OpenStep and have DPS do the basic drawing... >Likely the quickest way to go... Or the slowest, depending... --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.Stanford.EDU!usenet From: xinwei@leland.stanford.edu (Sha Xin Wei) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: EOF2.0 and Oracle-DB Date: 2 Jan 1997 21:29:31 GMT Organization: Stanford University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5ah9br$nhg@nntp.Stanford.EDU> References: <59delc$6dn@iese.iese.fhg.de> Reply-To: xinwei@leland.stanford.edu (Sha Xin Wei) NNTP-Posting-Host: truffaut.stanford.edu In article <59delc$6dn@iese.iese.fhg.de> flege@iese.fhg.de (Oliver Flege) writes: > > after upgrading from EOF1.1 to EOF2.0 it's no longer possible > for me to connect to my Oracle-DB. EOModeler displays the login > panel for the DB, but after filling it in as usual everything I > get is an Alert-panel: > "Unable to connect to server: Oracle error 6107" > We discovered that you should leave the server-host field empty. ______________________________________________________________________ Sha Xin Wei (415)725-3152 Human-Computer Systems Architect xinwei@stanford.edu Maths & Scientific Visualization www.stanford.edu/~xinwei Stanford University Sweet Hall 415/Stanford,CA 94305-3090 ______________________________________________________________________ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.53.145.10!news2.interlog.com!n1tor.istar!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.istar.ca!news From: jsamson@istar.ca (Jean-Paul C. Samson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: need NumToString( ) equivalent Date: 2 Jan 1997 21:16:03 GMT Organization: iSTAR Internet Incorporated Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5ah8ij$u5@news.istar.ca> References: <32CBD897.5E82@dnai.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts2-15.edm.istar.ca In-Reply-To: <32CBD897.5E82@dnai.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-10001-01 On 01/02/97, Jeff Hoekman wrote: >Does anyone know an easy way to convert integers or floating point >number to character strings? Of course, the ANSI C function "sprintf" does this. For example: ----- char myString[256]; int myInteger; (void)sprintf(myString, "%d", myInteger) ----- This converts the integer "myInteger" into a C (i.e. char*) string entitled myString. If you are looking for something OpenStep specific, use the NSString class cluster. For example: ----- id myString; int myInteger; myString = [NSString stringWithFormat: @"%d", myInteger]; ----- This creates a temporary (i.e. it is destroyed at the completion of the current iteration of the event loop) NSString object. You should use an "alloc" message followed an "initWithFormat" to create a permanent string. (e.g. myString = [ [NSString alloc] initWithFormat: @"%d", myInteger]) Perhaps others will have better solutions. -- -===================================================================- Jean-Paul C. Samson -=- jsamson@istar.ca -=- NeXTmail & MIME welcome -============- http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jeanpaul/ -=============- -===================================================================- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!mr.net!news.mid.net!news.ponyexpress.net!ponyexpress-5-port-15.ponyexpress.net!user From: nextusr@sleepy.ponyexpress.net (The Woodsman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.marketplace Subject: Re: Calendar and scheduling apps Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 17:10:20 -0500 Organization: PonyExpress Net Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <5af43n$8bu@ralph.vnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ponyexpress-5-port-15.ponyexpress.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next:80 comp.sys.next.misc:24129 comp.sys.next.software:27007 comp.sys.next.programmer:21270 comp.sys.next.marketplace:15839 The best I have found is also the cheapest. That is Cassendra. It can be found on most NeXT FTP sites. Hope this helps. NeXTusr In article <5af43n$8bu@ralph.vnet.net>, timothy@acm.org wrote: > What kind of calendar/schedule/group scheduling software exists for > NEXTSTEP? What are the features and costs? Is there anything besides > PencilMeIn? > > Please email me with any details and contacts. > > Thanks. > Timothy > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Timothy R. Mills 2500 Innsbrook Road > timothy@acm.org Charlotte, NC 28226 > (NeXT/MIME/ASCII) phone: 704-442-1141 > --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Windows 95 - Got it... Tried it... Dumped it! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!tezcat!gail.ripco.com!news.tds.net!NewsWatcher!user From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.tools.misc,comp.sys.be,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Metrowerks Announcement Listserver Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 17:28:22 -0500 Organization: Metrowerks Lines: 40 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.137.76.139 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:58090 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3312 comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.tools.misc:6311 comp.sys.be:20096 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20026 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10475 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5012 comp.sys.next.programmer:21271 The Metrowerks WorldWide announcement server! Did you miss registering in time for an update? Have you been looking for a patch only to find it was released 3 weeks ago? Are you wondering when the next Update will be released? For these reasons and others, we have set up a list server that you can sign onto in order to receive Metrowerks announcements. This is Not a High-Traffic Discussion list or a Spam-Fest This is not a discussion list server. It is a one-to-many list, which means that you will not receive mail from anyone but Metrowerks and you will not receive mail unrelated to Metrowerks products and services. Your email address will be kept Metrowerks confidential and will not be sent to anyone outside of Metrowerks. Easy Come-Easy Go There are simple instructions to get on this list server and equally simple instructions to get off the list. The only thing you need is an email account. To subscribe send an email message to with the following commands in the message body: subscribe mw-announce (your full name) Your address will be added to the list of subscribers. You will then receive periodic announcement messages from Metrowerks. For more information check out the following URL < http://www.metrowerks.com/news/listserver.html > Ron -- METROWERKS Ron Liechty "Software at Work" MWRon@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com/about/people/rogues.html#mwron #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!usenet From: dekorte@intrepid.suite.com (Steve Dekorte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 2 Jan 1997 23:49:59 GMT Organization: OnRamp Technologies; ISP; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5ahhj7$cal@news.onramp.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: s172-122.suite.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10915 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3315 comp.sys.next.programmer:21272 "Nick Nallick" wrote: > Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp or > PowerPlant on top of OpenStep, or does OpenStep provide all of those > functions? No. > For example, how rich is the view system? Very good, but only 2d. > Is there an application/document model? Yes. > Would a port of MacApp or PowerPlant be likely to make it easier to move an > application written in one of these frameworks to the new Apple OS? Don't know. -- Steve Dekorte - OpenStep Developer - Anaheim, CA "...All eyes have turned to Apple and NeXT..." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Q: "a.out" with PB, or MAB with "> cc"? Date: 3 Jan 1997 02:24:17 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5ahqkh$j5v@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I would like to create a Multi-Architecture binary shell-executable file from a plain C program. I would normally compile it in a Shell with a command line: > cc -O program.c I gather that I could do this either: 1) through ProjectBuilder, if I knew how to make it compile plain C progams into shell-executables (which is not self-evident from NeXT documentation); or 2) through a Shell command, if I knew the right cc flags. Any answers to these questions will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.55.3.16!news2.mnsinc.com!news1.mnsinc.com!plsuh From: plsuh@goodeast.com (Paul L. Suh) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 22:56:46 -0500 Organization: UPenn Grad Econ Lines: 19 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp29.pm1.gslink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20033 comp.sys.next.programmer:21274 In article <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net>, jkheit@cnj.digex.net wrote: > I haven't seen an example yet. Again, these are all minor issues > dwarfed by the fact GX routinely pukes printing basic documents; > and furthermore that may be all together taken care of by DPS3. FYI, there is a poorly publicized bug in QDGX v1.1.3 and earlier affecting PCI-based PowerMacs, which causes crashes when attempting to print. It is apparently transmission-speed dependent, as I (using LocalTalk) have had consistent crashes while other people I have corresponded with (using Ethernet) have not had these crashes. According to other sources, this should be fixed in QDGX 1.2, to be released with System 7.6. See Apple's Tech Info Library for more details. --Paul #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!news.rmit.EDU.AU!minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU!not-for-mail From: rsmgm@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (Greg McPherson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 3 Jan 1997 08:39:15 GMT Organization: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: minyos.its.rmit.edu.au X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10916 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3321 comp.sys.next.programmer:21275 Nick Nallick (nallick@winternet.com) wrote: : Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp or : PowerPlant on top of OpenStep, or does OpenStep provide all of those : functions? For example, how rich is the view system? Is there an : application/document model? : : Would a port of MacApp or PowerPlant be likely to make it easier to move an : application written in one of these frameworks to the new Apple OS? : : Thanks, : Nick Nallick To me this is a very important question. More important than the C++ vs Objective C debate going on. Will I be able to port my MacApp programs to NeXT? If I can't, and I have to write things from scratch, it will be time to decide whether or not to move on to the world of Windows. I suspect many folks will be in a similar position. Greg #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Q: "a.out" with PB, or MAB with "> cc"? Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:27:50 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 14 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5ahqkh$j5v@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article <5ahqkh$j5v@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) writes: > I would like to create a Multi-Architecture binary shell-executable file from > a plain C program. I would normally compile it in a Shell with a command > line: > > cc -O program.c cc -arch i386 -arch m68k -arch sparc -arch hppa -O program.c (etc) $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!news.idt.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.89.123.24!nntp.inet.fi!news.sci.fi!comm From: comm@sci.fi (Juha Tuominen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Audio problem after upgrading 3.2 -> 3.3 Date: 3 Jan 1997 13:33:26 GMT Organization: Scifi Communications International Oy, http://www.sci.fi/, helpdesk@sci.fi, (931)3186277 Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5aj1r6$mu6@tron.sci.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.sci.fi X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I updated a customer's Intel NeXTstep system from 3.2 to 3.3. Their audio program began acting weird after the update. When recording a sound and stopping the recording with stop button (sends stop: message to sound object) the audio driver receives the stop message and it stops recording, but sound object fails to send didRecord: message to delegate object and the sound object stays empty. This doesn't happen every time, only once in awhile. Too often anyway. I checked the 3.3 release notes and didn't find any modifications on DriverKit nor SoundKit. Any ideas what might cause such a behaviour? -Juha -- My wife ran off with my best friend and I still miss him. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!netnews.upenn.edu!NEWS2!simpson From: simpson@post.drexel.edu (Homer Simpson) Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 08:48:57 -0500 References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> <5acv9h$qfd@morgoth.sfu.ca> <5adp9n$p84@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> Organization: Drexel University Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Lines: 20 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20038 comp.sys.next.programmer:21278 Personally all I care about is speed. How fast is DPS when compared to GX for display purposes only. How fast can I blit an entire screen at 24bit, a 6 or 7 ms? How fast can QuickTime movies play using masks? Can I easily and quickly do sprite movements of irregularly shaped objects? Can my display update in realtime? In a drawing program with say 1000 different shapes with many different colors sizes and transperency levels can the screen update the entire window? Because DPS is based on "real numbers" and not integers I highly doubt that a well optimized integer based display archtecture couldn't beat the pants off of an interpreted real number based display engine. One simple example of accelaration is performing simple divisions and multiplies by 2 using the bit shift operators instead of the actual multiply command. BTW does DPS support RAVE accelaration? I personally could careless at this point about printing, since I print fewer than 5 pages of information in a given week. BTW if PS is so great on NS and PS is used in print houses as the defacto standard of printing, why is the Mac the perferred platform? Secondly why are people who are migrating from the Mac switch to Windows NT or 95 and not NS? I would think that as a pre-press shop it would make sense to use a tool that works so well with printing. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news From: betti@erols.com (Mike Betti) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NeXT OS: Porting a UNIX app ? Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 15:29:41 GMT Organization: Erol's Internet Services Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5aj8p3$rer@boursy.news.erols.com> Reply-To: betti@erols.com NNTP-Posting-Host: spg-as43s73.erols.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 I know nothing about NeXT - but I've been asked to find out about the NeXT OS - so I thought I'd go straight to the experts.... What would it take to port UNIX daemon processes to the NeXT OS ? Is the NeXT OS UNIX-like, VMS-like, or what ? Any help would be appreciated. I'd like to be able to answer these questions somewhat intelligently. Mike #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:43:33 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 36 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10920 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3323 comp.sys.next.programmer:21280 In article <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> rsmgm@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (Greg McPherson) writes: > Nick Nallick (nallick@winternet.com) wrote: > : Would a port of MacApp or PowerPlant be likely to make it easier to move an > : application written in one of these frameworks to the new Apple OS? > : > : Thanks, > : Nick Nallick > > To me this is a very important question. More important than the C++ vs > Objective C debate going on. OK... I've never actually USED MacApp, but as I understand it, it's very simlar _in_principle_ to the AppKit. A port of MacApp threfore DOESN'T make sense, because the AppKit provides the same basic functionality, but in a more complete, and standard way - all NeXT apps (with very few exceptions) use the AppKit. > Will I be able to port my MacApp programs to NeXT? you will be able to _PORT_ them. The MacApp structure will move onto the AppKit architecture quite happily - far better than those apps based on polling the toolbox (which can be done under NeXTStep, but only just). MacApp people will be very happy under NeXTStep once they've moved over - those still writing "old style" programs will have far more problems. Thats not to say that there won't be signifgant work involved - all the objects are different, and the "toolbox" is very different, but the fundamental approach to building apps is the same, so there will be little restructuring. $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 3 Jan 1997 16:31:09 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ajc8d$430@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca17-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 03 10:31:09 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10921 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3324 comp.sys.next.programmer:21281 rsmgm@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (Greg McPherson) wrote: > Will I be able to port my MacApp programs to NeXT? > If I can't, and I have to write things from scratch, it will be time to > decide whether or not to move on to the world of Windows. I suspect many > folks will be in a similar position. I don't know what the merged OS will be like, but if OPENSTEP object frameworks are used, then your apps will run under Windows NT today with support for 95 not far away. So you can continue to produce Mac apps that are source-code compatible with Windows versions. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!news From: Michael D. Rossetti Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 3 Jan 1997 16:31:05 GMT Organization: MacApp Engineering Lines: 45 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> NNTP-Posting-Host: 17.219.103.164 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Nuntius 2.0.4_PPC X-XXDate: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:33:09 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10922 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3325 comp.sys.next.programmer:21282 Nick Nallick, nallick@winternet.com writes: >Apparently in a year or so Apple is going to have an object-oriented API >via NextStep/OpenStep. I'm not sure this is _apparent_. Perhaps we'll know better when a more complete announcement is made next week, and perhaps not. But right now it's not apparent; we can only make guesses. >Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp or >PowerPlant on top of OpenStep, or does OpenStep provide all of those >functions? To which Steve Dekorte, dekorte@intrepid.suite.com replies: >No. I'm not sure that this reply makes sense. Which part of Nick's question are you answering: the first part (it doesn't make sense to have MacApp or PowerPlant) or the second part (OpenStep provides all of those functions)? Assuming that you are answering the first part of the question the reply is not based upon any knowledge of Apple's strategy (assuming there is one) regarding the Next acquisition. I can think of about a thousand reasons why it would make sense to retain MacApp for many years even if Apple were to decide that a switch to OpenStep was warranted and new developers were to be encouraged (or even required) to develop using OpenStep. Would any of you thousand or so developers out there with existing MacApp applications like to comment on this? >Would a port of MacApp or PowerPlant be likely to make it easier to move an >application written in one of these frameworks to the new Apple OS? I've wondered this myself. MacApp is somewhat better abstracted than PowerPlant so it would be more straightforward to adapt to a different API. But I'm not losing much sleep over this matter right now. I'm more concerned about the language issue: will we have to switch to Objective C in order to take full advantage of the new API? If so then I think we've likely made a really big mistake. Mike R. [Speaking for myself and not for Apple] MacApp Engineering #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!sol.caps.maine.edu!cwood41 From: cwood41@maine.maine.edu (Christopher Wood) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 11:58:11 -0500 Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: async23.ts-m-merrill.caps.maine.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20045 comp.sys.next.programmer:21283 >Could you please outline the 'additional features of GX'? >I know nearly anything about DPS but nearly nothing about GX. > >I just had a look at 'GX versus PostScript: A Comparison' >found at www.apple.com. In this list only the chapter about >the 'Drawing modes' made some impression on me. Transparency >is available with DPS on NextStep, though not in such a >sophisticated way. > >Guenther Hi Guenther, From my perspective, the best things about GX that no other imaging technology has (at least not so far as I know) are its line layout features. GX brings a new level of typography to the desktop -- fonts kern themselves intelligently and have extensive sets of ligatures, ornamental characters, and swash characters. Because they're implemented at the OS level, these features are invisible to applications. That means that you could use all those nice 'fi', 'fl', 'ffi', and 'ffl' ligatures, as well as others, and the OS (and individual applications) would still recognize them for their constituent letters. And the system is smart enough to break up a ligature if it needs to add space for justification. The bottom line is that people could create documents with great-looking typography without even thinking about it. Hope I've answered your question (at least in part)... Tschues! --Chris -- Christopher Wood cwood41@maine.maine.edu D'ohh! <-- in the manner of Homer Simpson #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 12:02:55 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 68 Message-ID: <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh6-24.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 03 11:02:18 AM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10923 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3326 comp.sys.next.programmer:21284 Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > > Nick Nallick, nallick@winternet.com writes: > >Apparently in a year or so Apple is going to have an object-oriented API > >via NextStep/OpenStep. > > I'm not sure this is _apparent_. Perhaps we'll know better when a more > complete announcement is made next week, and perhaps not. But right now > it's not apparent; we can only make guesses. What, exactly, did they spend $400 million for? Alternately, what's the MacApp cross-platform strategy? > > >Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp or > >PowerPlant on top of OpenStep, or does OpenStep provide all of those > >functions? > > To which Steve Dekorte, dekorte@intrepid.suite.com replies: > >No. > > I'm not sure that this reply makes sense. Which part of Nick's question > are you answering: the first part (it doesn't make sense to have MacApp > or PowerPlant) or the second part (OpenStep provides all of those > functions)? > > Assuming that you are answering the first part of the question the reply > is not based upon any knowledge of Apple's strategy (assuming there is > one) regarding the Next acquisition. > > I can think of about a thousand reasons why it would make sense to retain > MacApp for many years even if Apple were to decide that a switch to > OpenStep was warranted and new developers were to be encouraged (or even > required) to develop using OpenStep. Would any of you thousand or so > developers out there with existing MacApp applications like to comment on > this? If I recall correctly, part of the reason Copland's development was being measured in geologic time was the attempt to maintain API compatability. Keeping MacApp seems like a continuation of this effort. Is the architecture of MacApp such that it could easily be ported to run on top of OpenStep? Or are there fundamental differences between OpenStep and MacOS that have resulted in significant differences in architecture? > > >Would a port of MacApp or PowerPlant be likely to make it easier to move an > >application written in one of these frameworks to the new Apple OS? > > I've wondered this myself. MacApp is somewhat better abstracted than > PowerPlant so it would be more straightforward to adapt to a different > API. But I'm not losing much sleep over this matter right now. > > I'm more concerned about the language issue: will we have to switch to > Objective C in order to take full advantage of the new API? If so then I > think we've likely made a really big mistake. NeXT's OpenStep API is in Objective-C. (Sun's is C++, I believe.) Changing it to C++ would take quite a while, unless you buy Apple's implementation. Before you decide that Objective-C is a mistake, have you used Objective C? -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT OS: Porting a UNIX app ? Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:32:54 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 17 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5aj8p3$rer@boursy.news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article <5aj8p3$rer@boursy.news.erols.com> betti@erols.com (Mike Betti) writes: > What would it take to port UNIX daemon processes to the NeXT OS ? All the standard ones are already there. because... > Is the NeXT OS UNIX-like, VMS-like, or what ? NeXTStep _IS_ Unix. it's 100% compatable (even to a BINARY level - I used to occasionaly run Sun binaries) with 4.3BSD. It does have the odd quirk - much like any Unix, but basically it's what you'd expect (but with a nice UI). It'll be no harder than any other Unix (and much easier than some). $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 11:52:58 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 61 Message-ID: <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh6-24.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 03 11:41:31 AM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10924 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3330 comp.sys.next.programmer:21286 Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > > Nick Nallick, nallick@winternet.com writes: > >Apparently in a year or so Apple is going to have an object-oriented API > >via NextStep/OpenStep. > > I'm not sure this is _apparent_. Perhaps we'll know better when a more > complete announcement is made next week, and perhaps not. But right now > it's not apparent; we can only make guesses. If they don't use the OpenStep API's, why would they bother buying NeXT? > >Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp or > >PowerPlant on top of OpenStep, or does OpenStep provide all of those > >functions? > > To which Steve Dekorte, dekorte@intrepid.suite.com replies: > >No. > > I'm not sure that this reply makes sense. Which part of Nick's question > are you answering: the first part (it doesn't make sense to have MacApp > or PowerPlant) or the second part (OpenStep provides all of those > functions)? > > Assuming that you are answering the first part of the question the reply > is not based upon any knowledge of Apple's strategy (assuming there is > one) regarding the Next acquisition. > > I can think of about a thousand reasons why it would make sense to retain > MacApp for many years even if Apple were to decide that a switch to > OpenStep was warranted and new developers were to be encouraged (or even > required) to develop using OpenStep. Would any of you thousand or so > developers out there with existing MacApp applications like to comment on > this? If I recall correctly, part of the reason Copland was taking so long was the effort to maintain API compatability. Staying with MacApp seems like a continuation of that. > >Would a port of MacApp or PowerPlant be likely to make it easier to move an > >application written in one of these frameworks to the new Apple OS? > > I've wondered this myself. MacApp is somewhat better abstracted than > PowerPlant so it would be more straightforward to adapt to a different > API. But I'm not losing much sleep over this matter right now. > > I'm more concerned about the language issue: will we have to switch to > Objective C in order to take full advantage of the new API? If so then I > think we've likely made a really big mistake. The OpenStep API from NeXT is Objective-C based. Sun apparently did it in C++. As to whether it's a mistake, have you used Objective-C? -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: mdros@aol.com (MDROS) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT OS: Porting a UNIX app ? Date: 3 Jan 1997 17:57:28 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 2 Message-ID: <19970103175500.MAA20412@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: <5aj8p3$rer@boursy.news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com nExt os IS bsd4.3 UNIX. If you ever worked with pre-solaris Suns, you will feel at home. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!dragonfly.wolfram.com!usenet From: stes@wolfram.com (David Stes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 3 Jan 1997 17:07:36 GMT Organization: Wolfram Research, Inc. Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ajeco$dnd@dragonfly.wolfram.com> References: Reply-To: stes@wolfram.com NNTP-Posting-Host: newt.wolfram.com Ian Stephenson writes > > A port of MacApp threfore DOESN'T make sense, because the AppKit > provides the same basic functionality, but in a more complete, and > standard way - all NeXT apps (with very few exceptions) use the AppKit. > I think it WOULD (or could) make some sense. You could try to implement MacApp classes in terms of the Appkit, and then that would make it a lot easier to port all the applications that are based upon _MacApp_. Then you don't have to convert the MacApp programs. This makes sense because there's perhaps dozens of MacApps programs, all sharing one common base, so it's useful to port the _base_, instead of converting/modifying/rewriting all the programs. And then _later_ you can start taking advantage of Appkit specifics. And another advantage is that you would have for a while just one set of sources (the MacApp sources) for both MacOS and NextStep. -- David Stes E-mail: stes@wolfram.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.170.183.55!brighton.openmarket.com!wizard.pn.com!news.zeitgeist.net!jupiter.dnai.com!news From: Jeff Hoekman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <32CBD897.5E82@dnai.com> Control: cancel <32CBD897.5E82@dnai.com> Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 23:33:01 -0800 Organization: DNAI ( Direct Network Access ) Lines: 1 Message-ID: <32CCB628.703E@dnai.com> References: <32CBD897.5E82@dnai.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.138.252.192 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) This message was cancelled from within Mozilla. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 24 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan3.140054.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com> X-Trace: 852318061/18593 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 19:00:54 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10925 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3334 comp.sys.next.programmer:21289 In article <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: > If I recall correctly, part of the reason Copland's development > was being measured in geologic time was the attempt to maintain > API compatability. Keeping MacApp seems like a continuation of this > effort. If Apple plans to retain the Macintosh look-and-feel, then using MacApp makes sense in order to isolate any changes required by OS enhancements (leaving them inside MacApp). If Apple does not plan to retain the Macintosh look-and-feel, then switching to Delphi would be in order since it already runs on the only platform you will need for the future - MS Windows. Regardless of how good the NeXTstep user interface might be, the consuming public will not stand for having it forced down their throats, and would desert Macintosh in droves if Apple were to insist on changing the interface. That does not say that NeXTstep's UI could not be a "personality" available at end-user option. Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 14:40:20 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32CD60A4.2E59@exnext.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.140054.1@eisner> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh4-21.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 03 1:39:42 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10926 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3335 comp.sys.next.programmer:21290 Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Regardless of how good the NeXTstep user interface might be, > the consuming public will not stand for having it forced down > their throats, and would desert Macintosh in droves if Apple > were to insist on changing the interface. They already have deserted in droves, and it's still the same interface. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!roper.uwyo.edu!roper.uwyo.edu!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: ncurses Message-ID: <1997Jan3.125029.25890@roper.uwyo.edu> From: nor@panoramix.uwyo.edu (norbert pirzkal) Date: 3 Jan 97 12:50:28 MST Distribution: world Nntp-Posting-Host: panoramix.uwyo.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Lines: 15 Is there a version of ncurses that compiles under NeXTSTEP 3.3/4.0 ??? Where can I get it? Thanks Nor -- Norbert Pirzkal http://faraday.uwyo.edu/grads/npirzkal P.O. Box 3905 Physics & Astronomy Department University Station Laramie, WY, 82071 #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 29 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> X-Trace: 852324227/20555 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:43:32 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10927 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3340 comp.sys.next.programmer:21292 In article <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: > If they don't use the OpenStep API's, why would they bother buying > NeXT? Memory protection, an OS kernel, scheduling, ... I can think of many components of an operating system which can be well hidden behind a variety of APIs. Also don't forget ... People. Certainly the NeXT folks have been down the design road before and know some of the pitfalls. > If I recall correctly, part of the reason Copland was taking so > long was the effort to maintain API compatability. Staying with > MacApp seems like a continuation of that. The innards of MacApp could be modified to match an arbitrary API which was capable of delivering the same look-and-feel as System 7. An arbitrary API change, however, would decimate the ranks of current non-MacApp developers, which would not be in Apple's best interest (Do I win the understatement award? Do I? Do I?). > As to whether it's a mistake, have you used Objective-C? _Requiring_ any particular language due to OS limitations is a mistake. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us (Robert Braver) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5ajp8k$i8i@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> Date: 3 Jan 1997 21:44:06 GMT Control: cancel <5ajp8k$i8i@newsfep3.sprintmail.com> Message-ID: Sender: tccs@sprintmail.com X-Cancelled-By: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us X-No-Archive: Yes Approved: y Lines: 2 Spam cancelled. Autocancel spam type: CDRMEDIA Original Subject: CD-R Media for Sale #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 24 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan3.164343.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.140054.1@eisner> <32CD60A4.2E59@exnext.com> X-Trace: 852327960/22260 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 21:43:43 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10930 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3342 comp.sys.next.programmer:21293 In article <32CD60A4.2E59@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: > Larry Kilgallen wrote: > >> Regardless of how good the NeXTstep user interface might be, >> the consuming public will not stand for having it forced down >> their throats, and would desert Macintosh in droves if Apple >> were to insist on changing the interface. > > They already have deserted in droves, and it's still the > same interface. You, sir, do not have a feel for true _droves_. :-) Actually on balance, I don't think there are statistics to show net defections from Macintosh. Apple has lost plenty of market share on new sales, meaning they are not getting a large piece of new users as they have in the installed base. There are plenty of shock stories such as sombody at NASA ordering wholesale replacement of Macintoshes, but there is less publicity about the subsequent visit from the Inspector General looking into costs :-) Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 17:06:46 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <32CD82F6.488@exnext.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh6-18.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 03 4:06:09 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10932 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3343 comp.sys.next.programmer:21294 Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > In article <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: > > > If they don't use the OpenStep API's, why would they bother buying > > NeXT? > > Memory protection, an OS kernel, scheduling, ... There's nothing special about NeXT's kernel. They could just as well have used Be, or NuKernal. (In fact, it's not clear they won't.) > I can think of many components of an operating system which can be well > hidden behind a variety of APIs. > > Also don't forget ... People. Certainly the NeXT folks have been down > the design road before and know some of the pitfalls. True. But they could have gotten key people much cheaper than $400 million. > > If I recall correctly, part of the reason Copland was taking so > > long was the effort to maintain API compatability. Staying with > > MacApp seems like a continuation of that. > > The innards of MacApp could be modified to match an arbitrary API > which was capable of delivering the same look-and-feel as System 7. > An arbitrary API change, however, would decimate the ranks of > current non-MacApp developers, which would not be in Apple's best > interest (Do I win the understatement award? Do I? Do I?). > > > As to whether it's a mistake, have you used Objective-C? > > _Requiring_ any particular language due to OS limitations is a > mistake. Let a thousand flowers bloom. It's not an OS limitation. It's an API decision. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!usenet From: bmunn@lighthouse.com (Beth Munn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: JOB: Lighthouse Design/Sun Microsystems Date: 3 Jan 1997 22:01:20 GMT Organization: Lighthouse Design, a Sun Microsystems business Lines: 48 Message-ID: <5ajvjg$d0c@nntp1.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ballast.lighthouse.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Lighthouse Design (a Sun Microsystems business) 2929 Campus Drive San Mateo, Ca. 94403 415.570.7736 http://www.lighthouse.com Founded in 1989, and acquired by Sun Microsystems in July of 1996, Lighthouse Design is one of the industry's most experienced developers of applications for purely object-oriented environments. Lighthouse offers the exciting and fast paced environment of a small company, while being able to provide "big company" benefits. JavaPlan, the newest product from Lighthouse Design is the industry's first enterprise devlopment platform for the analysis, design, and generation of sophisticated Java applications. Lighthouse is also the premiere provider of productivity applications for the OpenStep and Solaris environments. We are looking for individuals who can demonstrate excellence in Object-OrientedTechnology, GUI Design, Software Engineering Management, and Application Development. Your skills should include: Java, Objective-C, Smalltalk, C++, OpenStep, Solaris, Windows NT, RDBMS, OODBMS, and OO A/D, "off the shelf" application development, The following positions are currently open: JAVA DEVELOPMENT MANAGER APPLICATIONS ENGINEERS JAVAPLAN ENGINEERS SALES ENGINEERS TRAINERS/CURRICULUM DEVELOPERS OPERATIONS MANAGER .....and others!! Lighthouse is a leader in the Object-Oriented software industry, come and work with some of the best people in the business. For more informaiton please contact or send your resume to: Beth Munn 415-570-7736 bmunn@lighthouse.com For other opportunities, please see our web site at: www.lighthouse.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 3 Jan 1997 16:31:20 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5ajtr8$nha@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10933 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3345 comp.sys.next.programmer:21296 In article <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner>, kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > > As to whether it's a mistake, have you used Objective-C? > _Requiring_ any particular language due to OS limitations is a > mistake. Let a thousand flowers bloom. Objective-C isn't required "due to OS limitations". It is required because the OpenStep framework is more powerful with it than it would be with C++. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 3 Jan 1997 23:30:44 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10934 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3346 comp.sys.next.programmer:21297 rsmgm@minyos.its.rmit.EDU.AU (Greg McPherson) wrote: > To me this is a very important question. More important than > the C++ vs Objective C debate going on. > Will I be able to port my MacApp programs to NeXT? If I can't, > and I have to write things from scratch, it will be time to decide > whether or not to move on to the world of Windows. I suspect > many folks will be in a similar position. I heard there were some commercial port utilities comming out. And I certainly understand your concern... One thing I might point out though... That _IF_ apple does the right thing, and lets you develop/design/compile one piece of source code for Apple NewOS/win95/winNT/Solaris then this is still the place to be. Current NeXT development tools allow you to do so, actually to do so for multiple hardware for each of the OS platforms (for Mach OS you can compile to Intel, Sparc, HPPA, and soon PPC, and maybe 040 hardware...)... That kind of single code base/cross development is a powerful reason to use the new development platform... -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 3 Jan 1997 23:32:51 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5ak4v3$9je@news3.digex.net> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> <5acv9h$qfd@morgoth.sfu.ca> <5adp9n$p84@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20052 comp.sys.next.programmer:21298 simpson@post.drexel.edu (Homer Simpson) wrote: > I personally could careless at this point about printing, since > I print fewer than 5 pages of information in a given week. BTW > if PS is so great on NS and PS is used in print houses as the > defacto standard of printing, why is the Mac the perferred > platform? Secondly why are people who are migrating from the Mac > switch to Windows NT or 95 and not NS? I would think that as a > pre-press shop it would make sense to use a tool that works so > well with printing. Price and lack of apps. They'd love the DPS part. Furthermore, b/c YOU personally could care less about printing doesn't change the reality that the Mac's last strong market is the DTP market, which does require printing. -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 3 Jan 1997 23:50:27 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5ak603$9je@news3.digex.net> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.140054.1@eisner> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10935 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3347 comp.sys.next.programmer:21299 kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > Regardless of how good the NeXTstep user interface might be, the > consuming public will not stand for having it forced down their > throats, and would desert Macintosh in droves if Apple were to > insist on changing the interface. Again and the citation for this absolute truism? It taint necessarily so. Apple was planning on 'shoving' a new UI down the throats of mac users anyway, the only difference is this UI wasn't invented there.... Funny, the company isn't doing the "not invented here" thing anymore. -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.114.128.68!news.bb.net!news.blarg.net!news From: Les Novell Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Where do I start? Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 17:26:11 -0500 Organization: DataMirage Software Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32CD8783.D2F@datamirage.com> Reply-To: les@datamirage.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup49.blarg.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (OS/2; I) Hi, The recent Apple/NeXT merger has been exciting news for myself and other software contractors and small independent software vendors. I have one simple question: Where do I start? I realize that Apple won't have the operating system available until mid-'97 or later. Meanwhile, I would like to get a head-start by installing NeXTStep for Intel on my P166 including the important developer resources. Can anyone tell me which products and documentation to purchase, and possibly estimate cost? I've spent an hour or so browsing NeXT's site, but they don't seem to have a "Getting Started" package for developers. Worse, they don't really explain what developers will need or should have. I called NeXT's customer service and explained that I needed a basic development package, and they recommended I purchase WebObjects 3.0 Enterprise. Funny, I never once told them I needed a package to do client-server web content. Hum... Replies by email, please. Thanks, Les Novell DataMirage Software #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.139.9.15!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!peak.org!luomat Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <199701031437.GAA13384@PEAK.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Image-Url: http://www.nerc.com/~luomat/Timothy_J_Luoma-X-Face.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 09:37:38 -0500 Subject: Compiling ZSH QuadFat for NeXTStep Reply-To: luomat@peak.org Organization: Princeton Theological Seminary Lines: 42 I'm rather new at this still, but I'm perplexed by this. I've been able to compile programs quadfat by adding this: CFLAGS = -arch m68k -arch i386 -arch hppa -arch sparc to the Makefile. So I can ./configure on zsh.3.0.2, and the Makefile has CFLAGS = -Wall -Wno-implicit -Wmissing-prototypes -O2 so I change it to CFLAGS = -arch m68k -arch i386 -arch hppa -arch sparc -Wall -Wno-implicit -Wmissing-prototypes -O2 and set 'make' on its merry way The make seems to have exited fine, (make 4238.55s user 324.42s system 88% cpu 1:25:45.59 total) and the .o files are all QuadFat builtin.o hist.o loop.o subst.o zle_main.o zle_vi.o compat.o init.o math.o text.o zle_misc.o zle_word.o cond.o input.o mem.o utils.o zle_move.o exec.o jobs.o params.o watch.o zle_refresh.o glob.o lex.o parse.o zle_bindings.o zle_tricky.o hashtable.o linklist.o signals.o zle_hist.o zle_utils.o but ZSH is not QuadFat, it is only m68k. Does anyone know why this happened and what I can do to get ZSH to compile QuadFat? thanks! TjL -- Tj Luoma (luomat@peak.org) http://www.next.peak.org/~luomat Awaiting Apple's NeXTStep #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!chaos.crhc.uiuc.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!news2.ic.net!news From: drelson@ic.net (David Relson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NSThread startup problem Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 04:18:56 GMT Organization: ICNET... Your Link To The Internet... +1.313.998.0090 Lines: 47 Message-ID: <32cdd943.4845099@news.ic.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p83.p.aa.ic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99g/16.339 NSThread start problem Using NeXTSTEP 3.3 running on a Pentium, I'm using [ NSThread detachNewThreadSelector:toTarget:withObject: ] to start the threads of a multi-threaded application. Fairly often the application crashes (while starting threads) with the following message: Program generated(1): Memory access exception on address 0x0 (protection failure). 0x50085c9 in NXHashGet () Dumping the stack ( via 'where' ) gives me: #0 0x50085c9 in NXHashGet () #1 0x7826d20 in -[NSPort initWithMachPort:] () #2 0x7833dac in forkFunction () #3 0x5026b09 in cthread_body () I have disassembled initWithMachPort: enough to know that it uses two instances variables - the first (at location 0x4700d20) is a lock and the second (at 0x4 700d24) is the address of the hash table (sent as the first argument to NXHashGet()). Looking at these two locations ( via 'x/2x 0x04700d20' ) gives me: 0x4700d20 <_NSGlobalRetainLock+60>: 0x00000000 0x00203810 Some debugging tests indicate that the hash table address is 0x0 when it fails and is not 0x0 when startup succeeds. The same tests show that the lock is always 0x0. Anybody know what's going on here? My guess is that I need to send a special message to get the lock to be initial ized. Anybody know what that message is? Please respond via e-mail. Thanks. David David Relson relson@laa.com Lynn-Arthur Associates 313-995-5590 Ann Arbor, MI #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 3 Jan 1997 21:42:11 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ak4v3$9je@news3.digex.net> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.190 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20056 comp.sys.next.programmer:21303 John Kheit said: >Price and lack of apps. They'd love the DPS part. Furthermore, >b/c YOU personally could care less about printing doesn't change >the reality that the Mac's last strong market is the DTP market, >which does require printing. Actually, the Mac's market is all over the place: education, DTP, multi-media publishing, home... The only one for which DPS important is DTP. This might sell high-end, high-margin machines, but GX is a much better deal for multi-media and so on. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 20 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan3.235329.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.140054.1@eisner> <5ak603$9je@news3.digex.net> X-Trace: 852353616/1720 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 04:53:29 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10936 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3354 comp.sys.next.programmer:21304 In article <5ak603$9je@news3.digex.net>, John Kheit writes: > kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >> Regardless of how good the NeXTstep user interface might be, the >> consuming public will not stand for having it forced down their >> throats, and would desert Macintosh in droves if Apple were to >> insist on changing the interface. > > Again and the citation for this absolute truism? It taint > necessarily so. Apple was planning on 'shoving' a new UI down the > throats of mac users anyway, the only difference is this UI wasn't > invented there.... Funny, the company isn't doing the "not invented > here" thing anymore. No, the announced Apple plan was to allow various personalities to the UI, one of which would be the current one. Having another one be NeXTstep is fine too. I have no inner need to force some interface that I like onto someone else who has something they already like. Larry Kilgallen writing this in TECO on VMS -- VTEDIT is for wimps :-) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!rex From: rex@mit.edu (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 04:10:24 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5abtee$mk9@news4.digex.net> <5ag0ln$a2r@news4.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: phi-pa8-05.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 3:01:43 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20061 comp.sys.next.programmer:21305 In article <5ag0ln$a2r@news4.digex.net>, jkheit@cnj.digex.net wrote: )Yes, I think this is reasonably doable... Put much of the GX api )in a framework for OpenStep and have DPS do the basic drawing... )Likely the quickest way to go... Either you have interesting definitions for 'reasonably' and 'quickest' or you *really* don't have a concept of just how complex GX is. I mentioned it before but really all Apple has to do initially is let one assign a GX viewport to an OpenStep window or view object. This is *NOT* hard. All GX Graphics needs is a buffer to draw in and some clipping/obscuration info, that's *it*. Since the printing architecture would no longer need to patch the OS to work (The source of 'its' instabilities), all it needs are access to a serial or ethernet port. It doesn't have to interact with DPS or the OpenStep print system at all, it'd just be another background process running like the GX Graphics library. In addition by allowing a GX Viewport to be assigned to an OpenStep window Apple immediately has a convenient and safe place for Quickdraw 3D to render, i.e. one of the options for specifying a rendering location in QD 3D right *now* is a GX viewport. Furthermore Apple's going to have to figure out a good and fast way of drawing directly to the screen in the new OS for Quicktime. It might be a wise idea to just make all of QTML use GX viewports for rendering in the new OS. That way Apple only has to worry about integrating one piece of technology with the OpenStep windowing system. (and even then it doesn't need to do much) It also requires the least amount of change for all of the technology involved and developers could start moving their QTML code over right now and even retain *some* common source code across platforms. All together this would probably take around an order of magnitude less time to accomplish than reproducing GX's functionality in OpenStep. It'd also be much faster and more efficient plus DPS would still work as it does now. As for the new Mac-style GUI elements Apple would probably be wise to choose GX to render them because GX has some very powerful functions in it that are just made for widget implementation. (Also I doubt DPS or any other imaging system is used to print out scrollbars and buttons very often) GXHitTestPicture for instance which not only tells you which picture shape was hit but which sub-picture shapes or other types shapes of shapes were hit to a specified level or depth, further it tells you what parts of the geometry of those shapes were hit and where in those parts they were hit. You can even adjust the tolerance so that the user only has to click near something. Just the kind of things you need to *constantly* do in writing a GUI widget. This one function has personally saved me hundreds of hours of work. (If you want to get really sneaky you store a reference to the actual object that shape represents in a tag object for that shape, thus cutting out the need for a complex dispatch. :) Been doing that in my Prograph app's GUI, makes creating new kinds of interface elements a *lot* easier.) There are a some other things that are very handy for GUI implementation but I'm rather curious about how the Appkit analog to all of this works. (I'm assuming that since DPS is not object-oriented that hit-testing is carried out by the AppKit.) How does one tell which shape was hit and where in the collection of PS calls and entities that define a GUI widget's geometry? Is there a hierarchical shape storage and hit-testing system? How much info does it give during a hit-test? -Eric -- )>GX Enthusiast and 3D Programmer. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!rex From: rex@mit.edu (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 06:15:07 -0500 Organization: Netcom Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: phi-pa8-05.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 5:06:19 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20063 comp.sys.next.programmer:21306 In article <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de (Marcel Weiher) wrote: )Hmm...I am probably being totally moronic here, but converting )between different graphics formats usually involves a lot more )than just fixed/floating point conversions. Not doing any )conversion at all will always be the optimum for maintaining )fidelity, no matter what. True, but DPS is a superset of PS Level 2 and no one has PS Level 3 printers yet. So it's transparency and compositing functions won't get rendered if sent, i.e. it needs a non-trivial translation. One that GX does automatically. )Also, fixed number formats start running into problems when you )have (a) applications that scale the coordinate system to have )convenient units and All problems are easily overcome because GX primitives are objects with persistent data about their state. GX picture shapes, mapping properties and transform objects can handle all of the necessary scalings and transformations automatically. It's an extra step for the developer but a small one. I suppose the easiest way would be to encapsulate the very large or very small entity in a picture shape. (Not a bad idea anyway, it offers a lot of flexibility) Once there the entity's private transform object would scale the shape to its needed precision and the picture shape's transform object would scale it back to actual size. All told two function calls: GXScaleShape(), and surprise GXScaleShape() :) Because the transform objects are intrinsically bound to the two shapes, these calls only need to be made once. When converting to Postscript GX will combine the transforms and make the appropriate scaling and conversions into floating point. This is not rocket science folks... Incidentally GX provides a pretty extensive fixed-point math library with support for 64bit (32.32), 32bit (16.16), 32bit (32.0) and 32bit (0.32) formats. )(b) documents with scaled coordinates are )nested. Let's face it, any fixed limit is one someone will )run into, someday (can you say 'millenium bug'?). Can you say inefficiency for 99.99% of a user's work. Screen devices only accept integer coordinates. On a PPC it takes ~7 cycles to convert a float to an int. (This *must* be done to draw to the screen) To convert from a fixed to an int takes 1. To scale a fixed to any needed precision takes 1 cycle. It'll really be interesting to benchmark DPS vs. GX on the new OS. From my limited explorations with Acrobat PDFs, GX renders them faster (after conversion) than Acrobat does. -Eric -- )>GX Enthusiast and 3D Programmer. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.dfn.de!news.embl-heidelberg.de!usenet From: gherman@NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE (Dinu Gherman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Python for NS.4.x Date: 4 Jan 1997 15:51:05 GMT Organization: EMBL Heidelberg Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5alu99$p80@lion.embl-heidelberg.de> References: <5agtib$n3b@concorde.ctp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: panda.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de In article <5agtib$n3b@concorde.ctp.com> "Georg Tuparev" writes: > > Does anybody already compiled Python 1.4 on NS 4.x? Seems like people are eventually using good stuff at your place ;-) Well, if you don't need absolutely a 4.x compile, you can download python-1.4.NIHS.b.tar.gz for NS 3.3 from ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de in /pub/next/submissions/ Maybe it will make its way sometime from there to /pub/next/Developer/Languages ... I guess it works w/ no headaches on 4.x systems. I am using it only casually on 4.0, but I cannot report any problems so far. -- Dinu C. Gherman mailto:gherman@embl-heidelberg.de voice:49.6221.387-456 fax:49.6221.387-517 http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/gherman/ EMBL http://www.embl-heidelberg.de/ Heidelberg http://www.germany.eu.net/shop/Heidelberg.info.cvb/ --- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!news.inconnect.com!slc-dial-45.inconnect.com!user From: mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 4 Jan 1997 16:40:49 GMT Organization: Puppy Dog Software Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5ak4v3$9je@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: slc-dial-45.inconnect.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20064 comp.sys.next.programmer:21308 In article , "Lawson English" wrote: >Actually, the Mac's market is all over the place: education, DTP, >multi-media publishing, home... > >The only one for which DPS important is DTP. This might sell high-end, >high-margin machines, but GX is a much better deal for multi-media and so >on. The Macintosh market is everywhere - education & home are big markets that continue to grow at a higher rate than DTP. To stay competitive with Microsquish, they have to make their machines/software as affordable as possible. NextStep sold/is selling for some $800 a copy. That's OK for corporate markets, but end users would never pay this. You can assume that part of that price is due to DPS royalties. That means there is a good financial reason not to use DPS (Apple needs to do everything it can to reduce the price of NextStep). Add that to some of the cool technological things GX has and you have a good argument for GX over DPS. Just my two cents. Mark Munz #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!news.abs.net!aplcen.apl.jhu.edu!cpk-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!tommy.chesapeake.net!usenet From: chrisf@chesapeake.net (CF Publishing) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.nsc.32k,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.sgi.admin,comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.sys.sun.hardware,comp.text.tex,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.aix Subject: We Create Web Pages! Date: 4 Jan 1997 18:30:51 GMT Organization: CF Publishing Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5am7kr$drl@tommy.chesapeake.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2-0.chesapeake.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50603 comp.sys.next.misc:24190 comp.sys.next.programmer:21309 comp.sys.next.software:27066 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:24753 comp.sys.nsc.32k:147 comp.sys.palmtops:62217 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:14026 comp.sys.powerpc.misc:1617 comp.sys.powerpc.tech:3780 comp.sys.psion.misc:5734 comp.sys.sgi.admin:44846 comp.sys.sinclair:31854 comp.sys.sun.admin:82718 comp.sys.sun.hardware:43360 comp.text.tex:83391 comp.unix.admin:49762 comp.unix.advocacy:35511 comp.unix.aix:83445 Do you or your company want to be seen by millions of people via the Internet but not have the ability to accomplish this by yourself? A lot of people have this yearn, but do not have the means of achieving this. The solution to this problem is simple. I will publish your web page for you, and put it up on a web server of your choice. There, with proper advertising, it can be seen by millions! Your page will be complete with graphics, frames, and the text that you want. All you need to do is send me the ideas you have for your page, any text you would like to see there, and I will create it for a minimal fee. This is a great way of letting your friends and family worldwide keep in touch with you, or let your business be seen! Many businesses have pamphlets or brochures that they create to keep their customers informed. With your own web page, we can publish your pamphlets or brochures online so your customers can view them with ease. We can even set up forms to allow them to mail in their orders securely! We guarantee that our pages that we create will please you, and if they do not, there is no charge to you. Our guarantee can not be beat. We will publish your pages for you, and them show them to you for your approval. You may then suggest any changes that you wish to be made. If these changes do not make you absolutely happy, you will not be billed for our services. We do not want our customers to be unhappy with any of our services, so we will continue to make changes to keep the pages we create closest to the pages you originally showed us. Our prices for web publishing can not be beat. We will beat any other written estimate you may have. If you are interested in any of our services, simple email us at chrisf@chesapeake.net, or call us at (301) 855-9902. Thank you for your interest in our services. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:25:41 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32CEAEB5.3BA@exnext.com.nonsense> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh1-13.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 1:25:01 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20067 comp.sys.next.programmer:21310 Eric King wrote: > > In article <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de>, marcel@cs.tu-berlin.de > (Marcel Weiher) wrote: > > )Hmm...I am probably being totally moronic here, but converting > )between different graphics formats usually involves a lot more > )than just fixed/floating point conversions. Not doing any > )conversion at all will always be the optimum for maintaining > )fidelity, no matter what. > > True, but DPS is a superset of PS Level 2 and no one has PS Level 3 > printers yet. So it's transparency and compositing functions won't get > rendered if sent, i.e. it needs a non-trivial translation. One that GX does > automatically. You can't say for certain that this functionality will require a PS Level 3 printer. Level 3 may well handle printing transparency to Level 2 printers. Then again, if you print from a DPS box to a non-postscript printer, the issue's moot, since the DPS will handle it. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 14:28:36 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <32CEAF64.7F39@exnext.com.nonsense> References: <5ak4v3$9je@news3.digex.net> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh1-13.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 1:27:57 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20068 comp.sys.next.programmer:21311 Mark Munz wrote: > > In article , "Lawson English" > wrote: > > >Actually, the Mac's market is all over the place: education, DTP, > >multi-media publishing, home... > > > >The only one for which DPS important is DTP. This might sell high-end, > >high-margin machines, but GX is a much better deal for multi-media and so > >on. > > The Macintosh market is everywhere - education & home are big markets that > continue to grow at a higher rate than DTP. To stay competitive with > Microsquish, they have to make their machines/software as affordable as > possible. Education and home might be big growing markets, but they're not growing with the Macintosh. The Mac simply doesn't have a compelling advantage over Win95. Right or wrong, that's the way people are voting with their dollars. > NextStep sold/is selling for some $800 a copy. That's OK for corporate > markets, but end users would never pay this. You can assume that part of > that price is due to DPS royalties. That means there is a good financial > reason not to use DPS (Apple needs to do everything it can to reduce the > price of NextStep). Add that to some of the cool technological things GX > has and you have a good argument for GX over DPS. The academic discount price for NeXTSTEP is $295. The DPS license is not a big deal. Add in the time required to replace DPS with GX, and you've got a good argument for DPS over GX. Apple has money. They don't have time. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!paladin.american.edu!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: Robert F Tobler Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep Date: 4 Jan 1997 21:32:21 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 84 Message-ID: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21312 comp.sys.next.advocacy:50641 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176250 comp.sys.mac.system:189574 PROPOSAL: How to implement resource forks, file types, and file creators in NeXTstep so that the user interface works like the Macintosh. Currently Nextstep uses the 'wrapper' to get the same (and more) functionality than the resource fork of the Macintosh. A wrapper is a directory that contains multiple files that are never visible to the normal user. Only if a user really wants to see these files he can open the wrapper as a directory using a special command from the Workspace (aka Finder). The Workspace recognizes a wrapper by its extension, i.e by the text behind the last '.' in the filename. Other than both WinNT and Win95, the mapping from file extension to file type is done automatically by the Workspace, based on all the applications present in the system (or at least in the Workspace launch paths). These mappings are regenerated each time a user logs in. The Workspace also associates a default application with each file type. This default can be set by the user, and can be overridden when opening a file; it is not stored with the file, but in the *per user* mapping data base of the Workspace. In order to make current Macintosh files work on the Next Apple OS, it is therefore necessary to map each Mac file into a directory containing the data and resource forks as seperate files. This directory can be made to have the original Macintosh file type field as extension, thus making it recognizable for the workspace. For some filetypes, however, this is not the desired behaviour. Tiff-files, Gif-files, C-sources, aso. are filetypes which are frequently accessed by standard UNIX tools (and other powerful UNIX applications like for instance a WWW-server). These tools would cease to work when presented with directories instead of files. For this reason the mapping database of the Workspace could be extended to know about the nature of these files, and not map them to directories if macintosh disks are mounted. The only drawback to this approach is, that the resource fork of these files is lost. We think this is acceptable, since the usability of these filetypes does normally not depend on the presence of the resource fork. The majority of file types of "big" productivity applications are mapped as wrappers and will retain all their information (e.g. ".photoshop", ".pagemaker", ".freehand", will all be extensions of directories containing a resource fork, a data fork, and maybe even additional files). The icons that are displayed by the Next Finder will be primarily derived from the file type. Each application that accepts a file type provides a common icon for all files of that type. The icon displayed by the Next Finder, is the one of that application that is designated to open it. In order to facilitate the Macintosh functionality of custom icons for each file of a specific type, it is possible to put an icon into the wrapper of the file in question. This overrides the default icon. Currently the Nextstep GUI exposes the file extension (aka file type) to the user. It would not be very difficult to add a switch to the (user specific) system preferences that hides them from view for consistency with the current Macintosh user interface. Apart from the file type there is another field present in each Macintosh file: the Creator code. While the original meaning was literal, it now encodes the preferred application with which to open the file in question. While on a single user machine, like the macintosh, this can be stored directly with the file, we think that in a multiuser environment like the Next Apple OS, this is a user specific feature. For this reason the Creator code should be stored in a *per user* data base that associates the preferred application with each file for which the user would like to override his personal default for that file type. This makes it possible for multiple users to access the same file, and still use different default applications and/or preferred applications on that file. This data base is stored on a per volume and per user basis, such that the associations are kept when the user copies a file to a different volume (the only application that needs to maintain the database is the Next Finder, thus the functionality is nicely concentrated). For diehard CLI fanatics it is possible to provide an "Apple" command line copy/move that maintains the associations when moving/copying a file (a-mv, a-cp, a-rm that could even be aliased if desired). We think that these proposals will maintain most of the macintosh functionality while preserving the clean Nextstep implementation of these features. Comments are welcome. Robert F. Tobler & Alexander Wilkie ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.220.251.22!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news From: piercej@m4.sprynet.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 17:11:10 +0000 Organization: Sprynet News Service Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> Reply-To: piercej@sprynet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: hd56-173.compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Macintosh; I; PPC) CC: jonathan_pierce@seagram.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10938 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3362 comp.sys.next.programmer:21313 John Kheit wrote: >>That _IF_ apple does the right thing, and lets you >>develop/design/compile one piece of source code for Apple >>NewOS/win95/winNT/Solaris then this is still the place to be. I agree. >>Current NeXT development tools allow you to do so, actually to do >>so for multiple hardware for each of the OS platforms (for Mach OS >>you can compile to Intel, Sparc, HPPA, and soon PPC, and maybe 040 >>hardware...)... That kind of single code base/cross development >>is a powerful reason to use the new development platform... Code developed using the NEXT development tools and frameworks is still OS dependant. Like the Next development tools, the Metrowerks tools allow you to compile a single code base and target multiple processors (68K, PPC, x86). This does not eliminate the need for an OS-independant cross-platform framework. -Jonathan #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.cmc.net!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: news@cmc.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.nsc.32k,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.sgi.admin,comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.sys.sun.hardware,comp.text.tex,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.aix Subject: cmsg cancel <5am7kr$drl@tommy.chesapeake.net> Date: 4 Jan 1997 22:26:35 GMT Control: cancel <5am7kr$drl@tommy.chesapeake.net> Message-ID: Sender: chrisf@chesapeake.net (CF Publishing) X-Cancelled-By: news@cmc.net Approved: news@cmc.net X-No-Archive: Yes Lines: 1 Spam cancelled by news@cmc.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.130.2.8!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: Robert F Tobler Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: 4 Jan 1997 22:28:18 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 74 Message-ID: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50658 comp.sys.next.programmer:21314 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176271 comp.sys.mac.system:189580 PROPOSAL: How to modify the Workspace manager to behave like the Finder Currently the Nextstep Workspace manager presents one or more windows called "File Viewers" to the user, that consist of three parts: * The shelf: This is a place to store commonly accessed files and directories in a way similar to aliases on the Desktop of the Macintosh. * The icon path: This displays the location of the selected file by showing the complete path from the root of the main disk to the file, in the form of an icon sequence containing each directory. * The browser: This part of the viewer can be used in three different modes, one of them is the mode which shoes the contents of each directory in the icon path as a column, the second one shows the icon of each file in the current directory, and the third one shows a list of all files in the current directory with all the additional fields like owner, creation date, aso. Double-clicking a directory will show the directory in the current file viewer without opening a new window. The Workspace manager supports the functionality of opening a directory in a new file viewer window, if the user wants it (using a Menu, a command shortcut Cmd-Shift-O, or Alt-Double-Click). It also stores the mode of the browser in each directory that was opend with its own file viewer window. In order to change the Workspace manager to behave like the finder, a small number of changes are necessary: * Make it possible for a file viewer to contain only the shelf, or only the browser. This should be user selectable. * Add to the icon mode of the browser, the functionality to (optionally) store the location of each icon in each directory. * Add the option to always create a new "File Viewer" window for each directory that is double-clicked. * Add to the shelf the functionality of arbitrary icon placement; currently icons can only be placed in a grid. Using these three features, the Next Finder can be implemented this way: * Make a shelf-only window that has the size of the screen and resides below all other windows. This will be the Next Apple Desktop. * Set the defaults of the Next Finder to always create a new "Viewer" at each double click, and to be in icon mode per default. Using these defaults there are some differences to the original Macintosh Finder, e.g. the Desktop contains only "aliases", never real files. But I think the overall user expierence in such a customizable Next Finder, could be made very close to the current Finder, so that Macintosh users will still be able to efficiently use the Next Apple OS with only *very little* changes to their accusomed habits. This proposal makes the user interface changes from the current Finder to the Next Findersmall enough to be even less than the changes made from system 6.x to system 7.0. The proposed changes in the implementation of the Workspace manager are small enough to be finished and tested even within the timeframe for the first Developer release, so if Apple/Next chooses, they can cater to the current Apple customers even in the very first release of the Next Apple OS. Comments are welcome. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!dnelson From: dnelson@netcom.com (Nelson ) Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep Message-ID: Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1] References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 22:31:16 GMT Lines: 5 Sender: dnelson@netcom7.netcom.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21315 comp.sys.next.advocacy:50661 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176277 comp.sys.mac.system:189581 How about just emulate the Mac and convert apps to Objective-C and Openstep. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!usenet From: John 'kzin' Rudd Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 22:29:10 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <32CF4A36.28A1@cygnus.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: copernicus.cygnus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10939 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3363 comp.sys.next.programmer:21316 piercej@m4.sprynet.com wrote: > > John Kheit wrote: > > >>That _IF_ apple does the right thing, and lets you > >>develop/design/compile one piece of source code for Apple > >>NewOS/win95/winNT/Solaris then this is still the place to be. > > I agree. > > >>Current NeXT development tools allow you to do so, actually to do > >>so for multiple hardware for each of the OS platforms (for Mach OS > >>you can compile to Intel, Sparc, HPPA, and soon PPC, and maybe 040 > >>hardware...)... That kind of single code base/cross development > >>is a powerful reason to use the new development platform... > > Code developed using the NEXT development tools and frameworks is still > OS dependant. > > Like the Next development tools, the Metrowerks tools allow you to > compile a single code base and target multiple processors (68K, PPC, > x86). > > This does not eliminate the need for an OS-independant cross-platform > framework. > > -Jonathan Which is what Openstep is. Writing code for Openstep for Mach, as long as you stay within the Openstep frameworks, is portable to Openstep for NT. It should also be portable to Openstep for Solaris. There is soon to also be an Openstep for Win95. There was an announcement at one time that there would be an Openstep for Digital Unix, as well. There is a subset of Openstep on HP/UX (everything except the GUI frameworks) from what I've read. All of these Openstep are supposed to be 100% source code compatable. Asside from the HP/UX, Digital Unix, and Solaris ports (which were done by the native OS company, and not NeXT) I'm quite sure it's true. So, once there is a PPC version of Nextstep/Openstep-for-Mach that is "the new Apple OS", you'll be able to use NeXT's tools to write a completely functional GUI application that will work/run on all of the Nextstep/Openstep-for-Mach hardware platforms, Windows NT, and Windows 95. One code base for Mac and Wintel and probably a few of the more popular Unices. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!usenet From: John 'kzin' Rudd Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 22:38:46 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32CF4C76.1EBF@cygnus.com> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: copernicus.cygnus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50663 comp.sys.next.programmer:21317 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176280 comp.sys.mac.system:189582 Robert F Tobler wrote: > > * Add to the shelf the functionality of arbitrary icon placement; > currently icons can only be placed in a grid. > > > * Make a shelf-only window that has the size of the screen and resides > below all other windows. This will be the Next Apple Desktop. > This is sort of what Fiend.app's Shelf is. It's a next desktop where you can put any file (application, folder/directory, other files, etc). You can choose whether to have it snap to a grid or not. Fiend also allows you to set a background image, handles the standard nextstep screen saver modules (backspace.app is the original 'standard' for this.. and is included as a free demo from NeXT), and create a virtual dock that can be anywhere on the screen and more than just a vertical collumn of icons. If you were to close the File Viewer shelf, and just use Fiend's desktop Shelf, you'd already have this "apple like desktop". :-) Or you can have both shelves by keeping the File Viewer shelf open. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.130.2.8!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: Robert F Tobler Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: 4 Jan 1997 23:05:46 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5amnoa$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32CF4C76.1EBF@cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50675 comp.sys.next.programmer:21318 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176288 comp.sys.mac.system:189585 John 'kzin' Rudd wrote: > > > > * Make a shelf-only window that has the size of the screen and > > resides below all other windows. This will be the Next Apple > > Desktop. > > > > This is sort of what Fiend.app's Shelf is. It's a next desktop where > you can put any file (application, folder/directory, other files, etc). > You can choose whether to have it snap to a grid or not. I know about Fiend, but this *needs* to be in the Next Finder, and be the default setup, in order to cater to current Macintosh users. Shareware programs that provide the same functionality are not enough, since they will not be available on preinstalled systems, and only a fraction of the total user base knows about them. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.242.23.5!nwlink.com!ip029.mu3.nwlink.com!user From: marke@nwlink.com (Mark Eaton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Speculation about OS/NT's future, anyone? Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 15:30:49 -0800 Organization: Northwest Link Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <59p564$o2l@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <1996Dec26.004354.2389@seer.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip029.mu3.nwlink.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0b30 In article <1996Dec26.004354.2389@seer.demon.co.uk>, Paul_Lynch@griffin.plsys.co.uk wrote: > In article <59p564$o2l@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art > Isbell) writes: > > > It seems that Mac developers would like to be able to develop Mac > > software using OPENSTEP that is nearly 100% source-code compatible with > the > > Windows version of the same software. Just think of the increased > market > > without much additional effort. Seems like a big win to me. > > > > > The NeXT/Apple thing brings something to either parties that each > other > > > need: Hardware to NeXT, software to Apple. Whatever concerns Intel > boxes > > > isn't of Apple's concerns. > > FWIW, I endorse Art's opinions. It seems to me that some of the > statements from Ellen Hancock would seem to back this up. If Apple can > persuade developers (even if only vertical market developers) to write for > OpenStep for portability reasons, then this is a powerful attractant to > support third party applications on (the future) MacOS. The MacApp team have been rumbling for a couple years about a Windows version of MacApp. There is actually some demand for this. OpenStep would be an even better solution. -Mark -- ---> marke@nwlink.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:43:20 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <32CEEB18.16A7@exnext.com.nonsense> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh5-11.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 5:42:46 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10940 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3365 comp.sys.next.programmer:21320 piercej@m4.sprynet.com wrote: > > John Kheit wrote: > > >>That _IF_ apple does the right thing, and lets you > >>develop/design/compile one piece of source code for Apple > >>NewOS/win95/winNT/Solaris then this is still the place to be. > > I agree. > > >>Current NeXT development tools allow you to do so, actually to do > >>so for multiple hardware for each of the OS platforms (for Mach OS > >>you can compile to Intel, Sparc, HPPA, and soon PPC, and maybe 040 > >>hardware...)... That kind of single code base/cross development > >>is a powerful reason to use the new development platform... > > Code developed using the NEXT development tools and frameworks is still > OS dependant. Only if you write OS-dependant code. The Openstep framework should allow a very high level of OS-independant coding. > Like the Next development tools, the Metrowerks tools allow you to > compile a single code base and target multiple processors (68K, PPC, > x86). > > This does not eliminate the need for an OS-independant cross-platform > framework. The openstep framework is what you want. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.242.23.5!nwlink.com!ip029.mu3.nwlink.com!user From: marke@nwlink.com (Mark Eaton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 15:44:05 -0800 Organization: Northwest Link Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip029.mu3.nwlink.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0b30 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10941 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3366 comp.sys.next.programmer:21321 In article <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com>, Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > I can think of about a thousand reasons why it would make sense to retain > MacApp for many years even if Apple were to decide that a switch to > OpenStep was warranted and new developers were to be encouraged (or even > required) to develop using OpenStep. Would any of you thousand or so > developers out there with existing MacApp applications like to comment on > this? Hi Mike! It's good to see you in the NeXT programming group. I would like to see my MacApp apps easily moved to OpenStep. I think it would be ideal if, where MacApp and OpenStep overlap, MacApp simply provide a thin layer between my code and OpenStep. But where MacApp provides richer functionality, as in the case of TDocument, the MacApp manage things under OpenStep. However, I would rather Apple encouraged developers to do _new_ projects in the native OpenStep framework. Make it richer where necessary, but more importantly make it _simple_ for OpenStep developers to deploy on W95/NT. > I'm more concerned about the language issue: will we have to switch to > Objective C in order to take full advantage of the new API? If so then I > think we've likely made a really big mistake. I'm not so concerned about this. NeXT development already includes the capability to mix ObjC and C++. And Metrowerks is promising C++ compilers that target the ObjC dynamic runtime. Thanks for participating, Mike. -Mark -- ---> marke@nwlink.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 4 Jan 1997 17:11:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <32CEAF64.7F39@exnext.com.nonsense> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.158 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20075 comp.sys.next.programmer:21323 Jonathan W. Hendry said: >Education and home might be big growing markets, but they're not >growing with the Macintosh. The Mac simply doesn't have a >compelling advantage over Win95. Right or wrong, that's the >way people are voting with their dollars. Funny, I could swear that the K-12 marketshare for the Mac was bigger in 196 than it was in 1995... Sold more units, too! And Wind95's compelling advantage over the Mac boils down to marketing: MS has spent more money promoting Wind95, than Apple has spent acquiring NeXT. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.fast.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 4 Jan 1997 17:29:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <32CEAF64.7F39@exnext.com.nonsense> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.183 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20077 comp.sys.next.programmer:21324 Jonathan W. Hendry said: >The academic discount price for NeXTSTEP is $295. The DPS license >is not a big deal. > Typical markup rule-of-thumb is that you charge the customer 3x what you paid for something. If the DPS license costs $10, that adds $30 to the standard price. Hardly peanuts when Apple sells System 7.5.5 for $99. >Add in the time required to replace DPS with GX, and you've >got a good argument for DPS over GX. Apple has money. They >don't have time. Time to replace DPS with GX is a confusing issue: *Do you mean, replace the DPS engine with the GX engine at the fundamental level? That would break all existing apps. *Do you mean create a GhostScript server that would use GX for its primitive graphics engine? That would be very slow until a LOT of optimizations were done. *Do you mean replace the DPS calls for the OpenStep GUI with GX calls? That would take time to do properly, but would almost certainly result in a significant speedup for drawing of windows, etc. It would also give the UI designers a much speedier and more flexable library to deal with when designing new/different interface elements. *Do you mean replace DPS with GX as the graphics library of choice? That would happen for most Macintosh-oriented applications as soon as GX became available. I'm pretty sure that most NeXT applications programmers would prefer to deal with GX, also. The underlying design of GX is a better fit for most kinds of non-DTP applications. While DTP systems are very lucrative PER UNIT, Apple makes more money total off of high-end home and education systems, and GX provides a much better graphics model (with a more convenient printing model) for this market than DPS does. I mean, how well does DPS support animation, not by using dedicated graphics routines working with bitmaps or the screen directly, but by using the standard DPS calls to do all drawing, with or without blitting? GX will handle a reasonably wide range of animation needs due to its more efficient nature, and applications like PaceWorks' Object Dancer can render GX text directly into QuickTime movies *as* GX calls, and not just as bitmaps, and you get a decent playback speed. It is such an obvious thing to do that I wonder: has anyone ever created a NeXTtime CODEC for DPS? What is the playback frame-rate on specific machines for simple text animation? Any numbers available? Any dedicated text animation apps out there for DPS? --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 19:42:40 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <32CEF900.200@exnext.com.nonsense> References: <32CEAF64.7F39@exnext.com.nonsense> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh6-20.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 6:42:02 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20078 comp.sys.next.programmer:21325 Lawson English wrote: > > Jonathan W. Hendry said: > > >Education and home might be big growing markets, but they're not > >growing with the Macintosh. The Mac simply doesn't have a > >compelling advantage over Win95. Right or wrong, that's the > >way people are voting with their dollars. > > Funny, I could swear that the K-12 marketshare for the Mac was bigger in > 196 than it was in 1995... Sold more units, too! And the home market? > And Wind95's compelling advantage over the Mac boils down to marketing: MS > has spent more money promoting Wind95, than Apple has spent acquiring NeXT. This is true. But the end result is the same. Home computer buyers are buying PC's. Their partially marketing generated perception is that the Mac and Windows are essentially the same. Then their kids see all the PC games, and they buy a PC. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Dortmund.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 19:45:31 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32CEF9AB.54A9@exnext.com.nonsense> References: <32CEAF64.7F39@exnext.com.nonsense> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh6-20.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 6:44:51 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20079 comp.sys.next.programmer:21326 Lawson English wrote: > > Jonathan W. Hendry said: > > >The academic discount price for NeXTSTEP is $295. The DPS license > >is not a big deal. > > > > Typical markup rule-of-thumb is that you charge the customer 3x what you > paid for something. If the DPS license costs $10, that adds $30 to the > standard price. Hardly peanuts when Apple sells System 7.5.5 for $99. Maybe so, but the Mac market is far larger than the NeXTSTEP market. Adobe can charge less per unit but make far more in total. It's also very much to their advantage to make sure it's cheap. > >Add in the time required to replace DPS with GX, and you've > >got a good argument for DPS over GX. Apple has money. They > >don't have time. > > Time to replace DPS with GX is a confusing issue: The person I responded to felt DPS should be replaced by GX. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!demos!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.nsc.32k,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.sgi.admin,comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.sys.sun.hardware,comp.text.tex,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.aix Subject: Re: We Create Web Pages! Date: 4 Jan 1997 14:43:17 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5am7kr$drl@tommy.chesapeake.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50713 comp.sys.next.misc:24203 comp.sys.next.programmer:21327 comp.sys.next.software:27078 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:24757 comp.sys.nsc.32k:148 comp.sys.palmtops:62251 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:14035 comp.sys.powerpc.misc:1621 comp.sys.powerpc.tech:3784 comp.sys.psion.misc:5742 comp.sys.sgi.admin:44853 comp.sys.sinclair:31865 comp.sys.sun.admin:82726 comp.sys.sun.hardware:43366 comp.text.tex:83405 comp.unix.admin:49778 comp.unix.advocacy:35543 comp.unix.aix:83453 chrisf@chesapeake.net (CF Publishing) writes: [most of the spammer's ad deleted] >estimate you may have. If you are interested in any of our services, simple >email us at chrisf@chesapeake.net, or call us at (301) 855-9902. Guys, this is a rare chance to slam a spammer but good. I just tried the number above, and it's live. It appears to be his home number. Call him up, and tell him why it's wrong to spam usenet newsgroups!!! >Thank you for your interest in our services. Yeah, good luck getting a clue, dipshit. -jcr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 5 Jan 1997 01:19:22 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5amviq$cgd@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article "Lawson English" writes: > GX will handle a reasonably wide range of animation needs due to its more > efficient nature, and applications like PaceWorks' Object Dancer can > render GX text directly into QuickTime movies *as* GX calls, and not just > as bitmaps, and you get a decent playback speed. > > It is such an obvious thing to do that I wonder: has anyone ever created a > NeXTtime CODEC for DPS? What is the playback frame-rate on specific > machines for simple text animation? Any numbers available? Any dedicated > text animation apps out there for DPS? Well, finally someone whose memory is almost as bad as mine. Last time I mentioned the little real-time text-scaling app you were impressed... There are also various screen savers and 3D games that not only work but even work while multitasking. On an 040 cube. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp-oslo.UNINETT.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!news.uni-c.dk!news-inn.uni-c.dk!Bucklan.Stupi.SE!news.pi.se!jlarsson From: jlarsson@rekursiv.pi.se (Jan Larsson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 01:44:27 +0100 Organization: Rekursiv Teknik Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: d1313.sth.pi.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10943 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3368 comp.sys.next.programmer:21329 In article , "Nick Nallick" wrote: > Does it still make sense to have an application framework such as MacApp or > PowerPlant on top of OpenStep What would make sense is a MacApp works on both System-7 and the NewOS. While this may not use OpenStep to its full potential it would still have all the other advantages like memory protection, threads, SMP etc. And it would allow developers to support both NewOS and System-7 for a while. /Jan Larsson ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jan Larsson jlarsson@numerik.se Numerik Design http://www.numerik.se ---------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 5 Jan 1997 01:41:00 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5an0rc$dfm@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> piercej@m4.sprynet.com writes: > John Kheit wrote: > > >>That _IF_ apple does the right thing, and lets you > >>develop/design/compile one piece of source code for Apple > >>NewOS/win95/winNT/Solaris then this is still the place to be. > > I agree. > > >>Current NeXT development tools allow you to do so, actually to do > >>so for multiple hardware for each of the OS platforms (for Mach OS > >>you can compile to Intel, Sparc, HPPA, and soon PPC, and maybe 040 > >>hardware...)... That kind of single code base/cross development > >>is a powerful reason to use the new development platform... > > Code developed using the NEXT development tools and frameworks is still > OS dependant. > > Like the Next development tools, the Metrowerks tools allow you to > compile a single code base and target multiple processors (68K, PPC, > x86). Hmm... when I used the Metrowerks stuff, you had to have different projects for the two architectures (68k/PPC) that could then share source files. Things got out of sync very easily and it was almost impossible to figure out what libraries were required (no real docs on this) for the different platforms. With NextStep, going multi-platform usually required checking the architecture flags in project-builder (one click per architecture), as well as re-writing any endian-specific code. That was actually the biggest part of it because I was doing device-drivers. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Thomas Vincent Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 17:40:31 -0800 Organization: SFbayrun Internet Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32CF068E.27C1@sfbayrun.com> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <32CEAEB5.3BA@exnext.com.nonsense> Reply-To: info@sfbayrun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca84-01.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 7:40:26 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20081 comp.sys.next.programmer:21331 1. I have heard that to remove DPS from the Next OS would be a very long, and big job. 2. If GX is so great then why are there only like ten apps in the whole mac world that take advantage of it? I mean, most people know Quickdraw GX as this monolithic ram eater. -- Cheers, Thomas Vincent =============== SFbayrun Internet | The MacStep News & BookStore http://www.sfbayrun.com/snet/ | http://www.sfbayrun.com/next/ --------------------------------------------------------- National High School Cross Country & Track and Field Pages http://www.sfbayrun.com/scholar/ --------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!fdn.fr!r2d2.fdn.org!precipice!postmaster From: hugues@precipice.fdn.fr (Hugues RICHARD) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 4 Jan 1997 15:45:38 GMT Organization: Individual - France Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5altv2$3f8@precipice.fdn.fr> References: <5a476h$1el@precipice.fdn.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: precipice.fdn.fr X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.81) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20082 comp.sys.next.programmer:21332 "Lawson English" wrote: > MMMM... GX has other advantages over Display PostScript besides the > OOP-ness. One of the most important is the fact that various > calculation-results and other data are kept around in a "shape cache" > for each shape. This means that when you redraw/reuse that shape, GX > can use the information available to speed up whatever is being done > (drawing, masking, whatever). On PS level II (also DPS) you cache too but it is up to the programmer to specify if he wants to cache or not. If Apple build a GXKit, they may include this PS caching mecanism? > Using GX as an API on top of Display PostSCript would make less useful > since you're now working with an engine one or more layers removed. When working with OO framework, you always have one or more layers. If you don't want a lot of layer, go with the MS_all_direct attitude that prevent any evolution. At the begining, OO is an investment. >Another issue is fonts. While this won't really matter for printing, >GX fonts allow for up to 65,536 glyphs with layout, ligature, >justification, etc., information contained in the font tables. So PS level II does : characters are 16 bits encoded if Ligature must be seek at hand in afm files : C 174 ; WX 556 ; N fi ; B 31 0 521 683 ; C 175 ; WX 556 ; N fl ; B 32 0 521 683 ; you can find kerning, and composite characters in font tables. >Trying to bounce back and forth between the two strategies in real-time >sounds like it would be *terribly* inefficient for display. GX is >faster than standard QuickDraw graphics because it can cache certain >information for reuse. Doing this context-switching would more than >eat up all the time saved, I'm sure. Types have been the first things cached in PS (since day 1). Hugues. -------------------------------------------------------------------- hugues@precipice.fdn.fr - French, English, Italian and a few JP ->OK ------------ NS3.2 ------------ NS3.0J ------------ :-) ------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!news From: Brian Arnold Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:51:12 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 82 Message-ID: <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> Reply-To: arnold@lumina.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 17.219.103.166 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10944 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3370 comp.sys.next.programmer:21333 Hi Jonathon, I'm glad to see you contributing to the debate over frameworks, but I don't agree with your position. Let me start by saying that it is plausible that AppKit chould become the primary choice for developing applications in the new OS, and it is inevitable for Apple to give NeXTStep components leading framework roles in the new OS. However, existing MacOS frameworks, even ones that have similar features to NeXTStep components, have a right, and a need, to coexist in the new OS for the forseeable future, because so much existing code depends on them that is strategic to jump-starting the NeXT-based OS. Equating Copland's problems in retaining compatibility is not an argument for a framework as deeply abstracted as MacApp, or even for one more thinly abstracted such as PowerPlant--in fact, the logic can be applied in reverse. For example, Copland faced compatibility issues with its new event model--a model which is fully abstracted in MacApp and that could be adapted once, rather than adapting all the applications that use MacApp. The most basic role for MacApp in the new OS could be to facilitate the migration of existing MacApp apps more quickly by doing the work once. There are well over a thousand applications developed with MacApp that ship millions of units per year. Some of these applications are strategic to Apple, and some are strategic to major third party software vendors. We all know viscerally that developers largely do not embrace change, they tend to stick to legacy code on shipping OSes. Significant delays in migrating existing applications and strategic tools to a new OS is about the last thing Apple needs right now. Apple learned already once before with the transition to PowerPC that it can't abandon its existing frameworks, lest it cut off a crucial asset: instant native applications. I should mention that I understand this issue first-hand. Two years after PowerMacintosh and MacApp 3.1 were introduced, and more years than that after C++ was written on stone tablets, I led the port of a "dead" version of MacApp (2.0), in its "dead" language (Object Pascal) to PowerPC, which drove the number of native PowerPC applications up by a couple hundred. The reason was simple: some people can't or won't migrate on a particular schedule or with particular tools, and you have to accept that position, and more importantly, you have to realize its implications. The point is: there's a lot of important code written with MacApp that is in critical need of timely migration, and it doesn't matter whether there is a framework which is better than MacApp (though I would be happy argue that topic in a separate thread ;-). It is not appropriate to demand that a thousand-plus MacApp applications change their client code to conform to a different language and framework--that would "let a thousand flowers die," to turn a phrase by Guy Kawasaki. If there is the possibility for changing MacApp to conform to the NeXT OS's underlying architecture, this issue should be explored, because there is obvious leverage in doing so. Developers will still be free to choose to use another framework or language based on its features and on their needs, and most importantly, on their preferences and on their schedule. Therefore, MacApp should play at least one specific role in the transition to the new OS, even if its role isn't primary, even if its role becomes reduced once the new OS becomes widely available, and even if most developers flock to another framework: to help move existing MacApp applications to the new OS much more quickly than otherwise. I should point out that the Metrowerks suite of tools and third party applications as obscure as Microsoft Internet Explorer would have a hard time moving to the NeXT-based OS if the PowerPlant framework didn't adapt as well, so the same logic applies. Having a choice of languages is more important than having a choice of frameworks because the benefit of migrating existing frameworks is destroyed since client code must also migrate to the new language. Even more importantly, there are many times more MacOS applications written in plain old C, C++ and Object Pascal (not to mention SmallTalk, Lisp, and the other wierer languages ;-) whose developers have have an even stronger set of preferences about their tools options. Therefore, choice of language has an even stronger effect on availability of native applications in the new OS, and it's vital to get clarity on this issue first, lest we "let twenty thousand flowers die." - Brian Arnold MacApp Frameworks Dude Apple Computer, Inc. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.nsc.32k,comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.powerpc.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.tech,comp.sys.psion.misc,comp.sys.sgi.admin,comp.sys.sinclair,comp.sys.sun.admin,comp.sys.sun.hardware,comp.text.tex,comp.unix.admin,comp.unix.advocacy,comp.unix.aix Subject: cmsg cancel Control: cancel Date: 5 Jan 1997 03:25:04 GMT Organization: Sun Microsystems Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 1 Message-ID: <5an6ug$edt@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: pitts.eng.sun.com This article canceled. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!solace!mn6.swip.net!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 4 Jan 1997 21:16:50 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 65 Message-ID: <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <32CD82F6.488@exnext.com> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: haddock.cd.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10946 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3371 comp.sys.next.programmer:21334 In <32CD82F6.488@exnext.com> "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: >Larry Kilgallen wrote: >> >> In article <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: >> >> > If they don't use the OpenStep API's, why would they bother buying >> > NeXT? >> >> Memory protection, an OS kernel, scheduling, ... > >There's nothing special about NeXT's kernel. They could just as well >have used Be, or NuKernal. (In fact, it's not clear they won't.) I think they wanted the package. Mach and all. In fact, there are some things that are very special with Mach 2.5: OpenStep exists on the Mach kernel today. NeXT's engineers are used to the mach kernel. NeXT's engineers have experience porting the Mach kernel to new hardware. Add to this that: Apples engineers do not know OpenStep. NeXT's engineers do not know the NuKernel. To port OpenStep on Mach to the PPC, the NeXT engineers would not have to do much more than porting Mach, which is relatively easy, and supposedly done once already. If OpenStep were to be moved to the NuKernel, Apple's engineers would have to learn the internals of OpenStep first, or the NeXT engineers would have to learn how to use the NuKernel. This would take a lot more time. I don't think Apple will throw away time like that. > > If I recall correctly, part of the reason Copland was taking so > > long was the effort to maintain API compatability. Staying with > > MacApp seems like a continuation of that. > > The innards of MacApp could be modified to match an arbitrary API > which was capable of delivering the same look-and-feel as System 7. > An arbitrary API change, however, would decimate the ranks of > current non-MacApp developers, which would not be in Apple's best > interest (Do I win the understatement award? Do I? Do I?). The API change is hardly arbitrary. But, if it is reasonably simple to do, there should of course be conversion tools. If it is not reasonably simple, then emulation will have to do until attractive applications are ported to OpenStep. Let us not forget that Appled bought NeXT for $400 million. They did that because they needed that OS upgrade yesterday, and I find it highly unlikely that they will do any change to NEXTSTEP that will delay the release. ---- Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already. If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se John Hornkvist Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT OS: Porting a UNIX app ? Date: 4 Jan 1997 21:11:50 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5amh2m$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <5aj8p3$rer@boursy.news.erols.com> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: haddock.cd.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) In Ian Stephenson wrote: >it's 100% compatable (even to a BINARY level - I used to occasionaly run >Sun binaries) with 4.3BSD. > If I am not mistaken, it worked the other way too; NEXTSTEP would work on some Sun workstations up to version 1.1, or something like that. Supposedly because NEXTSTEP was developed on Suns. --- Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already. If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se John Hornkvist Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 5 Jan 1997 04:40:56 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5anbco$957@news4.digex.net> References: <5ag0ln$a2r@news4.digex.net> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20085 comp.sys.next.programmer:21336 "Lawson English" wrote: > John Kheit said: > >Yes, I think this is reasonably doable... Put much of the GX > >api in a framework for OpenStep and have DPS do the basic > >drawing... Likely the quickest way to go... > Or the slowest, depending... But at least it will print. -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsout1.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.aa.net!ixa.net!nwlink.com!not-for-mail From: "Mark Eaton" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: knife says Mach/PPC kernel via MkLinux Date: 4 Jan 97 20:28:46 -0800 Organization: Northwest Link Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ip026.mu3.nwlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a1 X-News-Servers: news.nwlink.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.nwlink.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.nwlink.com/comp.sys.next.programmer Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50764 comp.sys.next.programmer:21337 Mac the Knife's Jan 6 column suggests that the Mach 3.0 kernel thats part of the MkLinux project will be 'crucial to' the NextStep/PPC project... #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!swidir.switch.ch!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: knife says Mach/PPC kernel via MkLinux Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 23:46:19 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32CF321B.17DB@exnext.com.nonsense> References: Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh1-08.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 04 10:45:42 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50766 comp.sys.next.programmer:21338 Mark Eaton wrote: > > Mac the Knife's Jan 6 column suggests that the Mach 3.0 kernel thats part > of the MkLinux project will be 'crucial to' the NextStep/PPC project... > > Perhaps. On the other hand, maybe he got as far as the fact that they both use Mach and turned his brain off. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!corvette.mst6.lanl.gov!nntp.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: 5 Jan 1997 04:51:50 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5anc16$g3g@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50777 comp.sys.next.programmer:21339 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176404 comp.sys.mac.system:189640 In <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Robert F Tobler wrote: > > > PROPOSAL: > How to modify the Workspace manager to behave like the Finder > > * Make a shelf-only window that has the size of the screen and resides > below all other windows. This will be the Next Apple Desktop. Such a feature is implemented quite nicely by MonsterShelf, ftp://next-ftp.peak.org/pub/next/apps/utils/workspace/MonsterShelf.NIHS.bs.tar.gz I have found it simpler to use than Fiend, and it serves my needs adequately. ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.60.229.3!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!news.sfu.ca!quinlan From: quinlan@sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 5 Jan 1997 05:52:04 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5anfi4$opo@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <32CEAEB5.3BA@exnext.com.nonsense> <32CF068E.27C1@sfbayrun.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fraser.sfu.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #5 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20086 comp.sys.next.programmer:21340 Thomas Vincent writes: >2. If GX is so great then why are there only like ten apps in the whole >mac world that take advantage of it? I mean, most people know Quickdraw >GX as this monolithic ram eater. If NeXTStep is so great then why does it fair so poorly in the market? Why do most people consider it a generator of compatibility problems. -- Brian Quinlan "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac quinlan@sfu.ca user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: woody@alumni.caltech.edu (William Edward Woody) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 02:26:59 -0800 Organization: In Phase Consulting Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <5a6l13$b8k@news3.digex.net> <5a9jba$mk0$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de> <32CEAEB5.3BA@exnext.com.nonsense> <32CF068E.27C1@sfbayrun.com> <5anfi4$opo@morgoth.sfu.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: alumnae.caltech.edu X-Reality-Check: Failed X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.1d3+ Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20087 comp.sys.next.programmer:21341 In article <5anfi4$opo@morgoth.sfu.ca>, quinlan@sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) wrote: > Thomas Vincent writes: > If NeXTStep is so great then why does it fair so poorly in the market? Why > do most people consider it a generator of compatibility problems. Simple: NeXT never got over the 'users only buy what has programs for it; developers only write programs for systems users buy' hump. The fundamental problem with the market is that the basic game of who will dominate in the market place was basically decided way back in 1984; unless one of the major players totally screw up, you can expect the status quo to stay relatively the same until the end of time. Way back then, Apple introduced the Macintosh in a market where people were still tinkering and hacking with computers; basically the Macintosh showed up a couple of years too late and a couple of years too early. Too late because the IBM PC had already established itself in the hacker community as _the_ toy to play with. And too early because the windowing paradigm the Macintosh introduced (which is especially great for computer users) didn't fair too well with hackers (who are computer tinkerers and computer builders, not computer users). And once businesses started buying computers and hiring those hackers to help make the purchasing choices, the Macintosh was basically doomed to live in the 10% market share (with graphically intensive applications, even though the PC has long caught up to where graphically intensive applications can be written). And the IBM PC with Microsoft software was destined to live with the rest of the market share by virtue that the purchasing decisions would ultimately rest with the folks who were just last year tinkering with soldering irons building character generators to plug into the ISA bus for fun. In many ways I think it's too bad. First, because new technologies (such as the NeXT platform, which was really state of the art and the best bang for the buck when it first hit the market, or the BeBox, which is a damned good hardware deal today) don't have a chance. And second, because mediocre technologies (Microsoft) will live forever, only because the market share is too large and too invested in Microsoft technology to change to something else. Even if that something else (Apple, NeXT, Be, whatever) is clearly superior. - Bill -- William Edward Woody - In Phase Consulting - woody@alumni.caltech.edu http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!128.130.2.8!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: Robert F Tobler Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: 5 Jan 1997 13:45:32 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5aob9s$dc4@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5anc16$g3g@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50841 comp.sys.next.programmer:21342 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176490 comp.sys.mac.system:189701 altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) wrote: > > * Make a shelf-only window that has the size of the screen and > > resides below all other windows. This will be the Next > > Apple Desktop > Such a feature is implemented quite nicely by MonsterShelf, There are a number of free- or shareware utilities that extend the Next Finder or the Next Workspace Manager to include some of the functionality I have described. This is, however, not enough, since they will not be available on preinstalled systems, and only a fraction of the total user base knows about them. Thus the average system will not have the functionality, and will rightfully be criticized for lacking it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 13 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> X-Trace: 852472279/28550 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:51:11 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10947 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3373 comp.sys.next.programmer:21343 In article <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se>, John Hornkvist writes: > Let us not forget that Appled bought NeXT for $400 million. They > did that because they needed that OS upgrade yesterday, and I find > it highly unlikely that they will do any change to NEXTSTEP that > will delay the release. No, if Apple fails to retain the existing customer (and particularly, developer) base, the 400 million dollars is wasted. Customer loyalty is Apple's most precious asset, and in the US they rank second only to Harley-Davidson. Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 22 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan5.085755.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net> X-Trace: 852472683/28550 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 13:57:55 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10948 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3374 comp.sys.next.programmer:21344 In article <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net>, Brian Arnold writes: > Having a choice of languages is more important than having a choice of > frameworks because the benefit of migrating existing frameworks is > destroyed since client code must also migrate to the new language. Even > more importantly, there are many times more MacOS applications written > in plain old C, C++ and Object Pascal (not to mention SmallTalk, Lisp, > and the other wierer languages ;-) whose developers have have an even > stronger set of preferences about their tools options. Therefore, > choice of language has an even stronger effect on availability of native > applications in the new OS, and it's vital to get clarity on this issue > first, lest we "let twenty thousand flowers die." In particular, certain applications are better suited to certain implementation languages. GUI calls can be done from many languages, but when it comes to the actual guts of a program which does statistics, natural language processing, or whatever, telling a company full of problem domain experts that in order to run on Macintosh they must switch to using some language derived from C is quite simply a non-starter. Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!news.efn.org!johns From: johns@efn.org (John Selhorst) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 06:57:58 -0800 Organization: Just me Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32CF4C76.1EBF@cygnus.com> <5amnoa$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: dynip123.efn.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.3 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:50851 comp.sys.next.programmer:21345 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176503 comp.sys.mac.system:189706 In article <5amnoa$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at>, Robert F Tobler wrote: >I know about Fiend, but this *needs* to be in the Next Finder, and be the >default setup, in order to cater to current Macintosh users. Shareware >programs that provide the same functionality are not enough, since they >will not be available on preinstalled systems, and only a fraction of >the total user base knows about them. You don't need to reinvent the wheel. You just need to get Apple to license it and deliver it with the OS. No big deal. Johnny #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!mailszrz.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!suee1534 From: suee1534@mailszrz.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE (Ozan Sueel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Interceptor Date: 5 Jan 1997 15:13:40 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5aogf4$ht9@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: mailszrz.zrz.tu-berlin.de X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] -- ? ? Help M Main Menu P AG #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 5 Jan 1997 15:58:53 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 35 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5aoj3t$l4h@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: <1997Jan5.085755.1@eisner> Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article <1997Jan5.085755.1@eisner> kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) writes: > In article <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net>, Brian Arnold writes: > > > Having a choice of languages is more important than having a choice of > > frameworks because the benefit of migrating existing frameworks is > > destroyed since client code must also migrate to the new language. Even > > more importantly, there are many times more MacOS applications written > > in plain old C, C++ and Object Pascal (not to mention SmallTalk, Lisp, > > and the other wierer languages ;-) whose developers have have an even > > stronger set of preferences about their tools options. Therefore, > > choice of language has an even stronger effect on availability of native > > applications in the new OS, and it's vital to get clarity on this issue > > first, lest we "let twenty thousand flowers die." > > In particular, certain applications are better suited to certain > implementation languages. GUI calls can be done from many languages, > but when it comes to the actual guts of a program which does statistics, > natural language processing, or whatever, telling a company full > of problem domain experts that in order to run on Macintosh they > must switch to using some language derived from C is quite simply > a non-starter. > > Larry Kilgallen It sure is. And they don't have to. Does every Mac programmer have to use Assembler/Pascal? Of course not. The FUD is really flying low. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.191.160.4!van-bc!uniserve!van0224.tvs.net!user From: acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 12:38:06 -0800 Organization: InMedia Presentations Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <32CD82F6.488@exnext.com> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: van0224.tvs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10951 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3376 comp.sys.next.programmer:21348 In article <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se>, sorry@no.more.spams wrote: > To port OpenStep on Mach to the PPC, the NeXT engineers would not > have to do much more than porting Mach, which is relatively easy, > and supposedly done once already. Er, three times, isn't it?? MkLinux is the Mach kernel, so is Tenon's MachTen or whatever they call it, and according to MacWEEK NuKernel is based on Mach as well. MacLeak also claims that NeXTStep is running on a twin 601 machine in NeXT's labs. So that would make _four_ ports of Mach to PPC in existence right now :) Seems to me that the MkLinux development efforts should be able to be leveraged straight into Avi's new group, and there's no obvious reason we can't have NeXTStep Mac running fine by WWDC. Which looking at Metrowerk's announcements about tool releases, seems to be what they expect too. Now, once the port's done, adding Mac OS APIs to NeXTStep ... there's an issue or two there, yeah ;) But FWIW, I think what Ellen's saying about porting NeXTStep to current hardware immediately, so Apple at least has an alternative to provide people, and *then* thinking about backwards compatibility (both API and hardware wise) is PRECISELY the correct strategy Apple needs to be taking at this point. For an example of how this strategy works from a marketing point of view in the real world, consider NT 3.5 vs. 4. Looks like a reasonable model to me. ---- Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!uniserve!van0224.tvs.net!user From: acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 12:38:30 -0800 Organization: InMedia Presentations Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <32CD82F6.488@exnext.com> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: van0224.tvs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10952 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3377 comp.sys.next.programmer:21349 In article <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se>, sorry@no.more.spams wrote: > To port OpenStep on Mach to the PPC, the NeXT engineers would not > have to do much more than porting Mach, which is relatively easy, > and supposedly done once already. Er, three times, isn't it?? MkLinux is the Mach kernel, so is Tenon's MachTen or whatever they call it, and according to MacWEEK NuKernel is based on Mach as well. MacLeak also claims that NeXTStep is running on a twin 601 machine in NeXT's labs. So that would make _four_ ports of Mach to PPC in existence right now :) Seems to me that the MkLinux development efforts should be able to be leveraged straight into Avi's new group, and there's no obvious reason we can't have NeXTStep Mac running fine by WWDC. Which looking at Metrowerk's announcements about tool releases, seems to be what they expect too. Now, once the port's done, adding Mac OS APIs to NeXTStep ... there's an issue or two there, yeah ;) But FWIW, I think what Ellen's saying about porting NeXTStep to current hardware immediately, so Apple at least has an alternative to provide people, and *then* thinking about backwards compatibility (both API and hardware wise) is PRECISELY the correct strategy Apple needs to be taking at this point. For an example of how this strategy works from a marketing point of view in the real world, consider NT 3.5 vs. 4. Looks like a reasonable model to me. ---- Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!drivel.ics.uci.edu!news.service.uci.edu!newsfeed.intelenet.net!rbarris From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: DPS Q: palette hardware Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 14:23:10 -0800 Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: karnov.quicksilver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.2 As far as I can remember, Display Postscript systems such as the original 030 NeXT, 040 NeXTStations, and even NeXT on Intel were restricted to certain display modes, namely ones like 2 bit gray 8 bit gray 16/24 bit color That is to say "no color palettes", only direct "true color" or "gray scale" modes. While I admire the simplicity that this must bring to the DPS code, never having to worry about mapping a color back into a palette of arbitrarily chosen colors, I wonder what will/might happen to DPS and NextStep as it is brought to the Mac world. Does/can DPS support for example 8-bit color with palette hardware? Does it have a palette manager to manage the color hardware state as you switch from one app to another? Could it run on an old PowerMac with 4-bit color or 1-bit black and white display? As a multimedia/game person I would love it if everyone would buy fast high-color/true-color machines, it would eliminate a lot of headaches in production if we could do away with palettes forever, however the installed base has a lot of "less worthy" video hardware. Rob Barris Quicksilver Software Inc. rbarris@quicksilver.com * Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: DPS Q: palette hardware Date: 5 Jan 1997 23:35:50 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5apdsm$h9p@news4.digex.net> References: Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote: > As far as I can remember, Display Postscript systems such as > the original 030 NeXT, 040 NeXTStations, and even NeXT on > Intel were restricted to certain display modes, namely ones > like > 2 bit gray 8 bit gray 16/24 bit color Add to the above 8bit color as well. > As a multimedia/game person I would love it if everyone would > buy fast high-color/true-color machines, it would eliminate > a lot of headaches in production if we could do away with > palettes forever, however the installed base has a lot of > "less worthy" video hardware. Well, DPS might be very nice. It uses 24bit (or even higher in some cases) color, and maps down on the fly. It will dither down to 8bit color, and the results are just great...b/c of the way dithering is done, an 8bit screen ends up looking like it has thousands or millions of colors. Also, 8bit color takes less memory and redraws faster...so it's very nice. For game developers...one doesn't even have to switch the entire screen to 8 or 16 or 24bit modes. Say you log in in 24bit mode. You can run an app at any bit depth...you can launch a newsreader in 2bit monochrome...that app and all its windows will be drawn in only 2bit mono, only use the memory required for 2bit mono, and redisplay faster b/c of the lower bit depth...If that app has any color, it will just be dithered down... The rest of the system will continue on working in color. Anyway, I imagine if you have 256 color CLUT based graphics, when you display them in 8bit color under nextstep...or any other bit depth...their 'pure' color values will be used, and it will be dithered down to as close a representation as possible... -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!tezcat!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 5 Jan 1997 16:39:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 76 Message-ID: References: <5altv2$3f8@precipice.fdn.fr> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.176 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20093 comp.sys.next.programmer:21352 Hugues RICHARD said: >"Lawson English" wrote: > >> MMMM... GX has other advantages over Display PostScript besides the >> OOP-ness. One of the most important is the fact that various >> calculation-results and other data are kept around in a "shape cache" >> for each shape. This means that when you redraw/reuse that shape, GX >> can use the information available to speed up whatever is being done >> (drawing, masking, whatever). > >On PS level II (also DPS) you cache too but it is up to the programmer to >specify if he wants to cache or not. > I believe that we're talking about a different level of cache, here. >If Apple build a GXKit, they may include this PS caching mecanism? > >> Using GX as an API on top of Display PostSCript would make less useful >> since you're now working with an engine one or more layers removed. > >When working with OO framework, you always have one or more layers. >If you don't want a lot of layer, go with the MS_all_direct attitude that >prevent any evolution. >At the begining, OO is an investment. The OOP-ness of GX is in the API: all shape objects respond to the same calls in a type-appropriate manner. DrawShape(mShape); works for any shape, be it line, rectangle, path, text, glyph or layout. > >>Another issue is fonts. While this won't really matter for printing, >>GX fonts allow for up to 65,536 glyphs with layout, ligature, >>justification, etc., information contained in the font tables. > >So PS level II does : characters are 16 bits encoded >if Ligature must be seek at hand in afm files : >C 174 ; WX 556 ; N fi ; B 31 0 521 683 ; >C 175 ; WX 556 ; N fl ; B 32 0 521 683 ; >you can find kerning, and composite characters in font tables. > But PS wasn't designed with the Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Hindu-Urdi/etc markets in mind. GX was. >>Trying to bounce back and forth between the two strategies in real-time >>sounds like it would be *terribly* inefficient for display. GX is >>faster than standard QuickDraw graphics because it can cache certain >>information for reuse. Doing this context-switching would more than >>eat up all the time saved, I'm sure. > >Types have been the first things cached in PS (since day 1). I understand that PS caches bit-map images of fonts at a given resolution. GX's architecture allows for the caching of all sorts of things. In fact, I understand that GX doesn't really store shapes as OOP-style *objects* but as entries in an optimized database, with the shape's reference (GX "pointer") being used as the index into that database. I would *guess* that recently used fonts are stored in bitmap format, since this is an obvious optimization strategy, but GX goes way beyond that in terms of sophistication. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 5 Jan 1997 16:43:03 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <32CF068E.27C1@sfbayrun.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.176 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20094 comp.sys.next.programmer:21353 Thomas Vincent said: >1. I have heard that to remove DPS from the Next OS would be a very >long, and big job. > >2. If GX is so great then why are there only like ten apps in the whole >mac world that take advantage of it? I mean, most people know Quickdraw >GX as this monolithic ram eater. No-one that I know of is advocating that Apple remove DPS from NeXT/OpenStep. They want to keep the installed base of NeXT apps functional afterall and this would require that Apple implement GX as the backend for a "Ghost"-DPS server, which is no doubt doable, but would take a long time to optimize. Instead, GX fanatics are asking for Apple to make sure that GX works as a "native" API under the new OS and to seriously consider implementing the GUI using GX, since such an implementation would be faster and more versatile. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 5 Jan 1997 21:46:55 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 83 Message-ID: <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: haddock.cd.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10953 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3381 comp.sys.next.programmer:21354 In <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> Larry Kilgallen wrote: >In article <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se>, John Hornkvist writes: > >> Let us not forget that Appled bought NeXT for $400 million. They >> did that because they needed that OS upgrade yesterday, and I find >> it highly unlikely that they will do any change to NEXTSTEP that >> will delay the release. > >No, if Apple fails to retain the existing customer (and particularly, >developer) base, the 400 million dollars is wasted. Customer loyalty >is Apple's most precious asset, and in the US they rank second only to >Harley-Davidson. Since it seems like Apple intends to continue development of System 7, I don't see why they'd be unable to keep their existing customer base. The NeXT Apple OS will take care of those users that want a better OS than System 7. That group may well include users of Windows'95 or NT. Even more important, Apple may gain the momentum that is needed to attract new computer users. Apropos customer loyalty, how large is Apple's customer base compared to the growth of the computer market? I have no idea, but it would be interesting to know. Anyway, I maintain that Apple will not delay the release of the new OS by adding Apple technologies. However, once that initial release is out, Apple is likely to start migrating those technologies that are needed. By the way, IIRC almost every major change of NEXTSTEP has forced developers to rewrite applications. Applications written for 3.3 will not compile under 4.0, although they will run. I suspect the situation will be similar for Mac developers. As for developers: 1) There are plenty of developers on OpenStep today. 2) Developers are usually early adaptors. 3) OpenStep is a developers dream. One of the most important factors in software development is time to market. The OpenStep frameworks, combined with the dynamic nature of Objective-C allows for a very short development cycle. If the developer has a decently structured application, which all people that call themselves developers should have, changing the UI code should be very simple. Normally you do not have to change more than that when porting to NEXTSTEP. Besides, developers have the same asset that Apple has; customers. If Apple can get their customers do move to the NeXT OS, which is likely, then developers will have to follow, or throw away a customer base that they have worked very hard to develop. The competition on the Windows market is fierce. Developing a customer base there will be incredibly hard. So, I still maintain get the new OS out on PPC yesterday, and if that means you'll have to leave Apple technologies behind, then so be it. Apple has to get something out quick. I find it likely that migrating MacApp will take longer than porting NEXTSTEP to the PPC, and therefore it will have to wait. Remember that there are many excellent applications available for OpenStep, and that the OpenStep developers are very positive about the port. Through the merger Apple has gained some momentum and caught attention. They have to show what NEXTSTEP is capable off on Apple's hardware. They have to get a working system out to developers. They don't have infinite time. All this does not mean that MacApp should not be ported, but that it should be ported when there is time, and in such a way that MacApp applications integrate with the new UI. Otherwise they can just as well stay in emulation. --- Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already... If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se John Hornkvist Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!erix.ericsson.se!erinews.ericsson.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 5 Jan 1997 21:52:42 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 47 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ap7ra$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <32CD82F6.488@exnext.com> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: haddock.cd.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: acurylo@inmediapresents.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10954 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3382 comp.sys.next.programmer:21355 In Alex Curylo wrote: > In article <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se>, sorry@no.more.spams wrote: > > > To port OpenStep on Mach to the PPC, the NeXT engineers would not > > have to do much more than porting Mach, which is relatively easy, > > and supposedly done once already. > > Er, three times, isn't it?? MkLinux is the Mach kernel, so is Tenon's > MachTen or whatever they call it, and according to MacWEEK NuKernel is > based on Mach as well. > > MacLeak also claims that NeXTStep is running on a twin 601 machine in > NeXT's labs. So that would make _four_ ports of Mach to PPC in existence > right now :) I meant that NeXT's engineers had already ported Mach to PPC once... :) > Seems to me that the MkLinux development efforts should be able to be > leveraged straight into Avi's new group, and there's no obvious reason we > can't have NeXTStep Mac running fine by WWDC. Which looking at Metrowerk's > announcements about tool releases, seems to be what they expect too. I think the differences between Mach 2 and 3 are great enough that the MkLinux teem will not have much more to add than the Copland team. That could still be a lot, though... :) > Now, once the port's done, adding Mac OS APIs to NeXTStep ... there's an > issue or two there, yeah ;) But FWIW, I think what Ellen's saying about > porting NeXTStep to current hardware immediately, so Apple at least has an > alternative to provide people, and *then* thinking about backwards > compatibility (both API and hardware wise) is PRECISELY the correct > strategy Apple needs to be taking at this point. For an example of how > this strategy works from a marketing point of view in the real world, > consider NT 3.5 vs. 4. Looks like a reasonable model to me. I am glad we agree. ---- Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already... If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se John Hornkvist Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 6 Jan 1997 04:38:11 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5apvjj$h9p@news4.digex.net> References: <32CF068E.27C1@sfbayrun.com> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20095 comp.sys.next.programmer:21356 "Lawson English" wrote: > Instead, GX fanatics are asking for Apple to make sure that GX works as a "native" API under the new OS and to seriously consider implementing the GUI using GX, since such an implementation would be faster and more versatile. Faster than what? How could replacing something be faster than simply using the current structure? Or do you mean faster executing? Please followup to comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy This kind of thread seems out of place in programming groups... -- Thanks, later, John Kheit monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NEXTmail OK NEXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Opinions expressed represent me only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.207.105.50!prodigy.com!johnsmith From: Ones-And-Zeros@prodigy.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: ! MASS POST Was Here! (WlmNpZ) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 97 05:40:06 GMT Organization: Mass Post Lines: 6 Message-ID: <5aq38p$3no6@usenet1y.prodigy.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: port76.nyc3.prodigy.net X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 MASS POST--the program by Ones and Zeros--has been used to send this message to thousands of newsgroups. (WlmNpZ) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: vbragin@ix.netcom.com (Vicki Bragin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc Subject: Need help from users of Rasmol for NEXTSTEP Date: 6 Jan 1997 05:44:41 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5aq3g9$h71@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pas-ca23-40.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jan 05 11:44:41 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-20003-05 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21358 comp.sys.next.software:27115 comp.sys.next.misc:24259 I am desperately looking for somebody who might help in recompiling the NEXTSTEP version of RasMol to update it and implement some functionalities that have been added to the other versions (Mac, Windows, SGI, etc.). For those who may not know about RasMol, it is a molecular display freeware written by Roger Sayle of Glaxo Wellcome. He has generously shared the code with the scientific world (supposedly 30,000 visitors to the RasMol home page over last 9 months, most recent count). It has been compiled for just about any platform one can think of. The problem is I believe nobody is maintaining the NEXTSTEP version. I tried to compile the NEXTSTEP version from the source code, there did not appear to be any problems in compilation, but I am unable to get a graphics display on the window. I will give more detail to any chemist, biochemist, molecular biologist, ... inerested in helping out. -- ********************************************************** Victoria M. Bragin Physical Sciences Division, Pasadena City College 1570 E. Colorado Blvd., Pasadena, CA 91106-2003 Phone: (818) 585-7147 Fax: (818) 585-7919 E-mail: (NeXTmail and MIME mail welcome) vbragin@nextlab.calstatela.edu vbragin@ix.netcom.com vbragin@paccd.cc.ca.us vbragin@pslc.ucla.edu ********************************************************** #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us (Robert Braver) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5aq38p$3no6@usenet1y.prodigy.net> Date: 6 Jan 1997 06:49:12 GMT Control: cancel <5aq38p$3no6@usenet1y.prodigy.net> Message-ID: Sender: Ones-And-Zeros@prodigy.net X-Cancelled-By: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us X-No-Archive: Yes Approved: y Lines: 2 Spam cancelled. Autocancel spam type: ONESZEROS Original Subject: ! MASS POST Was Here! (WlmNpZ) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 6 Jan 1997 07:00:31 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5aq7uf$7vo@huffalump.visi.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10957 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3386 comp.sys.next.programmer:21359 piercej@m4.sprynet.com wrote: : Code developed using the NEXT development tools and frameworks is still : OS dependant. Wrong. You've missed the whole point of OpenStep. Thanks for playing, though. -- # david young: +oo developer # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com, dwy@ace.net (NeXTmail ok) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: DPS Q: palette hardware Date: 6 Jan 1997 05:35:52 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5aq2vo$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca19-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jan 05 9:35:52 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote: > Does it have a palette manager to manage the color hardware state as you > switch from one app to another? What's the correct way to deal with different apps that use different color palettes in a multitasking environment where windows from several apps might be on-screen simultaneously? X Window doesn't deal with this well at all (at least it didn't several years ago). The entire screen uses the color palette for the active app which makes the windows for other apps look pretty bad and the entire display flashes when another app becomes active as the color palette changes. Ugly! I don't know much about this stuff, but it doesn't seem like the color hardware can deal with multiple color palettes simultaneously, so the above behavior might be the only possibility. If so, this seems to be a major weakness for color palettes as opposed to DPS' dithered color. But then if one needs to display undithered colors for some reason, this may be a problem with DPS. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 6 Jan 1997 06:10:05 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 62 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5aq4vt$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca19-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jan 05 10:10:05 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10958 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3388 comp.sys.next.programmer:21361 John Hornkvist wrote: > By the way, IIRC almost every major change of NEXTSTEP has forced > developers to rewrite applications. Applications written for 3.3 > will not compile under 4.0, although they will run. I suspect the > situation will be similar for Mac developers. This seems overstated. We have been developing under NEXTSTEP since 1.0a and our only rewrite has been the recent NEXTSTEP->OPENSTEP conversion, much of which was handled by automated conversion tools supplied with OPENSTEP. When NEXTSTEP 2.0 was released, the small number of classes and methods that were scheduled to become obsolete were supported through the various 2.x releases and dropped when 3.0 was released allowing more than a year to replace obsoleted code. I can't recall anything similar when 3.0 was released other than several new object kits being added although there may have been a few more obsoleted classes and methods that were supported through the 3.x releases. > If the > developer has a decently structured application, which all people > that call themselves developers should have, changing the UI code > should be very simple. When I worked on the NEXTSTEP port of WingZ, originally a Mac app, the port was not nearly as easy as you imply. Many of the View classes are provided by NeXT and included without code using InterfaceBuilder. This didn't seem to be the case with the Mac version for which much View code existed and had to be converted to InterfaceBuilder nib files. But MacApp may not have been used for the original WingZ, so maybe this isn't a valid comparison. The Controller classes require extensive rewrites because all UI interactions must be Objective-C messages. Model classes can remain in C or C++, though, with little porting effort required in general. However, no Pascal or Smalltalk to/from Objective-C communication appears to be supported. However, Java and Objective-C are so similar under the covers that NeXT has recently provided cross language support to such a degree that subclasses can be written in a different language than the superclass. Normally you do not have to change more than > that when porting to NEXTSTEP. Methinks Mac apps will require a considerable porting effort unless Apple and NeXT put a lot of effort into conversion tools. > The competition > on the Windows market is fierce. Developing a customer base there > will be incredibly hard. Unfortunately, this seems true. We develop apps for the business side of hospitals and have had absolutely no request for Mac versions. Business in general seems to be well-entrenched in the Microsoft world and change doesn't come easy :-( I don't know what the new Apple OS would have to offer to lure these Windows sites away. Microsoft has perfected the disgusting "just good enough" development strategy so that its perfected marketing machine can sell mediocrity with little effort. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: Sun, 05 Jan 1997 19:50:47 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32D04C67.3FE2@exnext.com.nonsense> References: <5altv2$3f8@precipice.fdn.fr> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh4-28.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Jan 05 7:32:39 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20097 comp.sys.next.programmer:21362 Lawson English wrote: > The OOP-ness of GX is in the API: all shape objects respond to the same > calls in a type-appropriate manner. > > DrawShape(mShape); > > works for any shape, be it line, rectangle, path, text, glyph or layout. How do you extend GX? -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!voskovec.radio.cz!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.245.243.1!news.palantir.com!news.IntNet.net!news From: polyex@mail.netsrq.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Speculation about OS/NT's future, anyone? Date: 5 Jan 1997 00:19:41 GMT Organization: Intelligence Network Online, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5ams2t$7gl@mercury.IntNet.net> References: <59p564$o2l@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <1996Dec26.004354.2389@seer.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: polyex@mail.netsrq.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp003.netsrq.com X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 In , marke@nwlink.com (Mark Eaton) writes: >In article <1996Dec26.004354.2389@seer.demon.co.uk>, >Paul_Lynch@griffin.plsys.co.uk wrote: > >> In article <59p564$o2l@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art >> Isbell) writes: >> >> > It seems that Mac developers would like to be able to develop Mac >> > software using OPENSTEP that is nearly 100% source-code compatible with >> the >> > Windows version of the same software. Just think of the increased >> market >> > without much additional effort. Seems like a big win to me. >> > >> > > The NeXT/Apple thing brings something to either parties that each >> other >> > > need: Hardware to NeXT, software to Apple. Whatever concerns Intel >> boxes >> > > isn't of Apple's concerns. >> >> FWIW, I endorse Art's opinions. It seems to me that some of the >> statements from Ellen Hancock would seem to back this up. If Apple can >> persuade developers (even if only vertical market developers) to write for >> OpenStep for portability reasons, then this is a powerful attractant to >> support third party applications on (the future) MacOS. > >The MacApp team have been rumbling for a couple years about a Windows >version of MacApp. There is actually some demand for this. OpenStep would >be an even better solution. > >-Mark > >-- >---> >marke@nwlink.com One benifit you guys have not mentioned - It would allow developers to write programs NOW, for the operating system (Mac/Next) that is not out yet. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!news.io.com!fnord!jamesl.sirs.com!user From: jamesl@io.com (James Lee) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 6 Jan 1997 17:02:42 GMT Lines: 14 Sender: jamesl@jamesl.sirs.com Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jamesl.sirs.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10960 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3392 comp.sys.next.programmer:21364 In article <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net>, arnold@lumina.com wrote (among many other insightful things): > We all know viscerally that developers largely do not embrace > change, they tend to stick to legacy code on shipping OSes. Actually, I disagree with this statement. This is usually a management decision based on the expense of converting a large base of legacy code to a new framework. Often management finds it far cheaper to continually patch an old app., even one built with a bloated and outdated framework, than to bite the bullet (and often all too real expense) of starting over from scratch. Most developers I know love having the latest tools work in and frameworks to work with. Thanks- Jim Lee __________________________________________________________________ jamesl@io.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!news.io.com!fnord!jamesl.sirs.com!user From: jamesl@io.com (James Lee) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to best learn NeXT? Date: 6 Jan 1997 17:27:25 GMT Lines: 6 Sender: jamesl@jamesl.sirs.com Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: jamesl.sirs.com Soliciting recommendations on how to best learn NeXT. Considering buying a NeXTstation 68040/16 for $379 used. Is that a good deal? Is it a good place to start? Please copy me via email. Thanks- Jim Lee __________________________________________________________________ jamesl@io.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: sound from NXRecordStream? Date: 6 Jan 1997 18:36:09 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 111 Message-ID: <5argmp$6lb@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5aek2b$t90@wagner.spc.videotron.ca> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <5aek2b$t90@wagner.spc.videotron.ca> Followups-To: comp.sys.next.programmer X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21366 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51242 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176915 On 01/01/97, Raymond Lutz wrote: > I want to play a sound freshly recorded by a NXRecordStream. > > How? > Depends on when you want to play it... I'm not sure if there's a way to play it *whilst* you're recording -- not easily and not without the likelihood of dropping samples anyway... The way I got round it (based on code sent to me by $an Stephenson, I think) was to use the delegate method (as you point out) @implementation Delegate - soundStream:sender didRecordData:(void *)data size:(unsigned int)numBytes forBuffer:(int)tag { mutex_lock(mlock); bufferTag--; buffsRead++; mutex_unlock(mlock); fwrite((const void *)data, numBytes, 1, fp); // <---- ** vm_deallocate(task_self(), (vm_address_t)data, numBytes); return self; } @end ** Here you can see I'm basically writing the data to a file on disk... Later on when I want to create the Sound object I read the data in from the file... - stop:sender { unsigned char *sndData; unsigned int bytesProcessed; if (recording == YES) { bytesProcessed = [recordStream bytesProcessed]; [(NXSoundStream *)recordStream deactivate]; recording = NO; cthread_join(stuffer_thread); [aSound setDataSize:bytesProcessed dataFormat:sstruct.dataFormat samplingRate:sstruct.samplingRate channelCount:sstruct.channelCount infoSize:4]; sndData = [(Sound *)aSound data]; rewind(fp); fread(sndData, bytesProcessed, 1, fp); fclose(fp); [playButton setState:0]; [playButton setEnabled:YES]; [recordButton setEnabled:YES]; [recordButton setState:0]; [soundView setSound:aSound]; } else { [aSound stop]; } return self; } If anyone knows how to do this more elegantly, maybe they could let me know?! :-) I guess you could copy it into a newly-created SNDSoundStruct, but that's more tricky as you'll have to dynamically allocate the memory for it as you go (and I suspect that you'll then run into problems with alocating enough memory in the time you have before the next bufferfull of data arrives -- I seem to recall I tried this, unsuccessfully). Note that you'll also have to set up a number of other things like stuffer_thread = cthread_fork((cthread_fn_t)dataStuffer, self); [NXSoundIn setUseSeparateThread:YES]; I hope this helps? > Should I wait MacStep to code all this in QuickDraw GX ? > :-) I wonder if any Apple people could show how this could be done on the Mac? (Not a troll -- I'm aware that people like DigiDesign have done inpressive stuff... the SoundKit is one area in NEXTSTEP which has evolved at a rather slower pace than other kits -- maybe we could have some ideas as to how it could be enhanced? Note: Followups to comp.sys.next.programmer) Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.io.com!fnord!jamesl.sirs.com!user From: jamesl@io.com (James Lee) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep Date: 6 Jan 1997 18:51:16 GMT Lines: 11 Sender: jamesl@jamesl.sirs.com Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: jamesl.sirs.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21367 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51251 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176925 comp.sys.mac.system:189951 In article <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at>, Robert F Tobler wrote: > PROPOSAL: > How to implement resource forks, file types, and file creators in > NeXTstep so that the user interface works like the Macintosh. As a Mac guy I am just curious about the Next world now and have been reading this thread. What is your goal with these interesting proposals? Thanks- Jim Lee __________________________________________________________________ jamesl@io.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!serra.unipi.it!swidir.switch.ch!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: Robert F Tobler Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep Date: 6 Jan 1997 20:38:14 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5arnrm$n1v@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21368 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51271 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:176949 comp.sys.mac.system:189962 jamesl@io.com (James Lee) wrote: > As a Mac guy I am just curious about the Next world now and have been > reading this thread. What is your goal with these interesting proposals? > Thanks- Jim Lee For current Mac users I wanted to show, that it is not very hard to modify Nextstep to behave like the Macintosh System. Thus we can expect Apple/Next to implement something along these lines within a reasonable time-frame. Mac users should therefore not fear that the Next Apple OS will be any harder or different to use than their current system. For current Nextstep users I wanted to show, that it is very easy to keep the clean implementation and scalability of Nextstep while catering to the needs of current Macintosh users. These proposals would not in anyway reduce the functionality of the current Nextstep system, while still adding all of the Mac interface. Thus I think the fear of Nextstep users, that their system will be 'downgraded' is also unfounded. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!voskovec.radio.cz!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Can't Get NXData to work. Date: 6 Jan 1997 21:58:19 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5arshr$1uu2@news.doit.wisc.edu> Reply-To: giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: animas.chem.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I'm trying to copy an array of floating point data across a DO (distributed object) connection by encapsulating it in an NXData object. I have a pre-malloc'ed array of floats, use it to init the NXData object, with the appropriate size (in this case 80 bytes), and then pass it across a DO connection, as in: [remoteobject setData:mydata]; where mydata is of type (NXData *) . When I recieve the object at the server end, the array contains all zeros. However, the size is correct if I do a [mydata size] (80 bytes!). So for some reason it seems the data block is not being passed across the connection but the other instance variables are. Has anybody seen this problem before? I found nothing with a quick search of NextAnswers. -- Michael Giddings giddings@chem.wisc.edu giddings@barbarian.com (608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851 http://www.barbarian.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.66.12.35!news-in.iadfw.net!usenet From: grettir@njardvik.orem.novell.com (Shawn Lynn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: qsort = void? Date: 6 Jan 1997 22:43:32 GMT Organization: INTERNET AMERICA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5arv6k$rme@library.airnews.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: njardvik.orem.novell.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) I'm compiling INN 1.5.1 and I've solved all of the config.data problems but one. When I attempt to run a make I get the following error message: In file included from getdtab.c:7: ../include/clibrary.h:143: conflicting types for `qsort' /NextDeveloper/Headers/ansi/stdlib.h:79: previous declaration of `qsort' But both clibrary.h and stdlib.h show the same declaration: extern void qsort(); Am I missing something? -- Shawn Lynn "Clothes make the man. Naked grettir@njardvik.orem.novell.com people have little or no influence in society." - Mark Twain #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news.smart.net!not-for-mail From: Mark Cruver Newsgroups: comp.object,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Smalltalk Positions Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 05:31:35 -0500 Organization: OBJECTGems Lines: 30 Message-ID: <32D0D486.4727@objectgems.com> Reply-To: mcruver@objectgems.com NNTP-Posting-Host: compumatics.smart.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) CC: mcruver@objectgems.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.object:49973 comp.sys.next.programmer:21371 OBJECTGems, a leader in applying Object-Oriented Technologies to solve problems in Business and Industry, is searching for software engineers with experience in OO development and the willingness to learn new technologies - Object-Oriented Databases, Object Request Brokers, WEB application Development, Java, Artificial Intelligence. We will consider both permanent employees as well as independent contractors. We currently have immediate openings the personnel with the following skills: NeXTStep, Objective C VisualWorks Smalltalk; VSE; VisualWave VisualAge Smalltalk for work primarily in the Washington, D.C. and Baltimore metropolitan area as well as throughout the US and some overseas locations. We offer competitive rates or excellent salary and benefits, and the opportunity to work on highly visable projects that are crucial to the mission of our customers; generally using leading edge technology. For consideration, please send your resume by email:mcruver@objectgems.com Office 703-917-6625 Fax: 703-893-8283 Also please visit our Web Site URL:http://www.objectgems.com for Company profile and further job opportunities. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-admin From: Michael.Gentry@mci.com (Michael Gentry) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 6 Jan 1997 23:04:33 GMT Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5as0e1$47q@news.internetmci.com> References: <5altv2$3f8@precipice.fdn.fr> <32D04C67.3FE2@exnext.com.nonsense> NNTP-Posting-Host: mgentry.metro.mci.com In-Reply-To: <32D04C67.3FE2@exnext.com.nonsense> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00120-01 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20105 comp.sys.next.programmer:21372 Lawson English wrote: > The OOP-ness of GX is in the API: all shape objects respond to the > same calls in a type-appropriate manner. > > DrawShape(mShape); This is vastly different than NeXT's/Objective-C's: [mShape display]; -- "We love Java, but we believe in choice." - Brad Silverberg, Microsoft Corporation, December 1996 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.242.23.5!nwlink.com!not-for-mail From: "Mark Eaton" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Speculation about OS/NT's future, anyone? Date: 6 Jan 97 15:01:16 -0800 Organization: Northwest Link Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5ams2t$7gl@mercury.IntNet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip036.mu1.nwlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a1 X-News-Servers: news.nwlink.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.nwlink.com/comp.sys.next.programmer > One benifit you guys have not mentioned - It would allow > developers > to write programs NOW, for the operating system (Mac/Next) that is > not > out yet. > Sure, the minute Apple says the OpenStep API won't change, this will be possible. But if Apple makes non-trivial changes (probable) I'd rather just wait. -Mark #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 6 Jan 1997 15:48:24 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 108 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) So, I'm looking through Apple's docs on GX on the web, and I came across the following code snippet, which apparently draws a ten-pixel wide, fifty percent grey, three-point spline curve, rotated 45 degrees from the base coordinate system of the window in which it is drawn. Apple's sample code follows: /* shape object reference */ gxShape aCurveShape; /* shape geometry definition */ gxCurve aCurveGeometry = {{ff(40), ff(120)}, /* first point */ {ff(100), ff(0)}, /* control point */ {ff(200), ff(120)}};/* last point */ /* color structure */ gxColor halfGray; /* point structure for center point */ gxPoint curveCenter; /* view port object reference */ gxViewPort aViewPort; /* job object reference */ gxJob aPrintJob; /* shape object refernce for picture to contain shape */ gxShape aPage; /* Code to declare window pointer, initialize Macintosh */ /* Toolbox, and create window goes here. */ halfGray.space = gxGraySpace; /* color space is grayspace */ halfGray.profile = nil; /* no color-matching */ halfGray.element.gray = 0x8000; /* 50% intensity */ /* create and draw shape */ aCurveShape = GXNewShape(gxCurveType); GXSetCurve(aCurveShape, &aCurveGeometry); GXSetShapePen(aCurveShape, ff(10)); GXSetShapeColor(aCurveShape, &halfGray); GXSetShapeAttributes(aCurveShape, gxMapTransformShape); GXGetShapeCenter(aCurveShape, 0, &curveCenter); GXRotateShape(aCurveShape, ff(45), curveCenter.x, curveCenter.y); aViewPort = GXGetNewWindowViewPort(theWindow); GXSetShapeViewPorts(aCurveShape, 1, &aViewPort); GXDrawShape(aCurveShape); /* print shape */ GXInitPrinting(); GXNewJob(&aPrintJob); aPage = GXNewShape(gxPictureType); GXSetPicture(aPage, 1, &aCurveShape, nil, nil, nil); GXStartJob(aPrintJob, "\p Rotated Gray Curve ", 1); GXPrintPage(aPrintJob, 1, GXGetJobFormat(aPrintJob, 1), aPage); GXFinishJob(aPrintJob); GXDisposeShape(aPage); GXDisposeJob(aPrintJob); GXExitPrinting(); GXDisposeShape(aCurveShape); The tally: seven variable declarations, ten function calls, and twenty lines of of code. Add the printing stuff, and it's eight declarations, twenty-one function calls, and thirty-one lines of code. Off the top of my head, the way we'd do this in NEXTSTEP using Objective-C and DPS is: #import @implementation myView:View // Bear in mind that this is an approximation, since in Postscript we use // Bezier curves, not splines. Also, the default coordinate space in GX // is not cartesian in layout, but is what we'd call a flipped coordinate // space. - drawSelf:(const NXRect *) rects :(int) rectCount { NXSetColor(NX_COLORGRAY); // Constant for a 50% gray value. PSsetlinewidth(10); PSmoveto(40.0, 120.0 ); PScurveto(100.0, 0.0, 100, 0, 200, 120); PSstroke(); } @end The tally: one object created, ten lines of code. There is no seperate printing code. All you need to do to print is send a -printPSCode message to the instance of myView. For rotation, you send a -rotate: -rotateBy: or -rotateTo: message to the view. So, what's the point of this? I'm not sure what the point is, but I will say that the biggest shift in my thinking when I went from the Mac to the NeXT six years ago, was realizing how much code I didn't have to write anymore. I doubt that I'll be using the GX API at all when I move my apps to the Macintosh. -jcr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.213.176.5!news.ntplx.net!news From: David Riedel Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 18:42:40 -0500 Organization: Silk City Software Inc. Lines: 33 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> Reply-To: silkcty2@ntplx.net NNTP-Posting-Host: a21-57.hftd.dialin.ntplx.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10961 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3396 comp.sys.next.programmer:21375 >>One of the most important factors in software development is time >>to market. The OpenStep frameworks, combined with the dynamic nature >>of Objective-C allows for a very short development cycle. If the >>developer has a decently structured application, which all people >>that call themselves developers should have, changing the UI code >>should be very simple. Normally you do not have to change more than >>that when porting to NEXTSTEP. If I have an application written in C++ using templates, exceptions and multiple inheritance, features which are major reasons for developing in C++ to start with, then I have to throw all this out and re-design and rewrite my application. Even if MW succeeds in putting some kind of C++ wrapper around Objective-C, there will be limits on what C++ features can be used for these wrapped classes. >>1) There are plenty of developers on OpenStep today. >>2) Developers are usually early adaptors. >>3) OpenStep is a developers dream. I've heard this in several places but it doesn't matter. The NextStep OS has been rejected by the marketplace over the last 9 years. Next has not made money in the past 3 years. People who buy Macs don't buy them to acess 'legacy' systems. Anyways, If there are so many developers for OpenStep, where are all the Objective-C books?? I searched compubooks database. With over 8700 books listed, there are only 2 for Objective-C, and one of them is from Next! If in fact there is this extensive developer community out there they must keep to themselves a lot. Given that Apple has decided to go with a unix based OS, why didn't they just reprise Aux? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep Date: 7 Jan 1997 01:33:21 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5as951$361@duke.squonk.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5arnrm$n1v@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21376 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51388 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177069 comp.sys.mac.system:190011 Robert F Tobler wrote: > jamesl@io.com (James Lee) wrote: > > As a Mac guy I am just curious about the Next world now and > > have been reading this thread. What is your goal with these > > interesting proposals? Thanks- Jim Lee > > For current Mac users I wanted to show, that it is not very hard > to modify Nextstep to behave like the Macintosh System. Thus we > can expect Apple/Next to implement something along these lines > within a reasonable time-frame. Mac users should therefore not > fear that the Next Apple OS will be any harder or different to > use than their current system. > > For current Nextstep users I wanted to show, that it is very easy > to keep the clean implementation and scalability of Nextstep > while catering to the needs of current Macintosh users. These > proposals would not in anyway reduce the functionality of the > current Nextstep system, while still adding all of the Mac > interface. Thus I think the fear of Nextstep users, that their > system will be 'downgraded' is also unfounded. I haven't had the time to really think over your proposals, but they seemed reasonable enough at a glance. Of course, I'm not someone speaking for Apple, so my view doesn't effect much... :-) Note that for some NeXTSTEP users, the issue wasn't so much whether the Mac interface would be a "downgrade", as simply time-to-market. The more time spent changing the NeXTSTEP interface, the longer it will take for this new OS to reach user's hands. Given that I do a lot of Mac support, I can pretty much argue either side of any particular difference in the interfaces. As such, I'm mainly swayed by my desire to see something "sooner" rather than "later". --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Can't Get NXData to work. Date: 7 Jan 1997 03:10:37 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5aserd$3s98@news.doit.wisc.edu> References: <5arshr$1uu2@news.doit.wisc.edu> Reply-To: giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: animas.chem.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu In <5arshr$1uu2@news.doit.wisc.edu> Michael Giddings wrote: > So for some reason it seems the data block is not being passed across the > connection but the other instance variables are. > > Has anybody seen this problem before? I found nothing with a quick search of > NextAnswers. > > After a few more hours I figured it out, having to do with data transfer between little-endian and big-endian machines. I guess it was a case of RTFM - once I dug in there and did a more careful reading of the portability guide, I found that the swap functions for floats and doubles can't just be applied at the recieving end: you are required to first use them at the encoding end to convert them into the NXSwappedFloat and NXSwappedDouble types. Strange, but after wasting a whole day to figure this out, it works . . . -- Michael Giddings giddings@chem.wisc.edu giddings@barbarian.com (608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851 http://www.barbarian.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!news.inconnect.com!slc-dial-32.inconnect.com!user From: mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 7 Jan 1997 03:05:29 GMT Organization: Puppy Dog Software Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slc-dial-32.inconnect.com In article , jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: [ lots of source code of GX & DPS- snip] First, if it's Apple source code, there's no telling how verbose it really is (Apple has yet to provide a nice, clean, tight piece of sample code ever). Second, it appears that the GXShape can be retained and used later, but the DPS object is hard-coded MoveTo, LineTo. This appears to be a more object oriented approach for GX. A more accurate comparison would be to create an object in DPS that you could keep around and that could draw itself at different rotations and such. Third, it also looks like the printing code is generic enough to cover all the GX printing - it's quite possible to have a library call that you'd pass a GXPicture to and that's that. Fourth, the lines of source code is valid for some things, but the question is - how much native code is generated by the DPS lines. And how fast is each one. That's what is really important. Fifth, I believe one of the advantages of GX (from what I've been told) is that it is extensible and that DPS requires a change in the definition of DPS language (with a backward compatible interpreter for odl stuff) for additions to it. There are lots of things wrong with GX, but there are lots of things right with it.. Just my two cents. Mark Munz #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!sn.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 7 Jan 1997 02:52:08 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 105 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca16-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jan 06 8:52:08 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10962 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3397 comp.sys.next.programmer:21379 David Riedel wrote: > If I have an application written in C++ using templates, exceptions and > multiple inheritance, features which are major reasons for developing in > C++ to start with, then I have to throw all this out and re-design and > rewrite my application. Even if MW succeeds in putting some kind of C++ > wrapper around Objective-C, there will be limits on what C++ features > can be used for these wrapped classes. The OPENSTEP compiler supports mixing C++ and Objective-C in the same app. Metrowerks has indicated their intention to provide similar capabilities. So you won't need to throw away C++ code that's used for Model classes, the functional core of any application. The Controller classes that bind the Model classes to View classes will need to have all messages to View classes reimplemented in Objective-C, usually not the major portion of an app. View classes must be Objective-C classes, but almost all that you'll need is included in OPENSTEP's AppKit. The use of these classes requires almost no coding because InterfaceBuilder archives instances of View classes that are unarchived at runtime. I can't see any need to wrap C++ classes around Objective-C, or vice-versa. They can coexist in most cases. Templates are a hack to deal with C++'s strict typing that aren't needed in Objective-C (hope my lack of full understanding of templates isn't showing too much :-) An Objective-C collection can contain objects of any type and can even include objects of different types without the need to resort to some sort of template mechanism. NeXT has implemented exceptions outside of Objective-C. OPENSTEP exceptions can be raised (thrown), caught at any stack frame at or above where they were raised, and handled accordingly. Exception memory management is handled by OPENSTEP's memory management which automatically releases autoreleased memory at the end of every event even if an exception has been raised. Maybe C++ exceptions offer something more, but I doubt that most C++ programmers will feel too deprived. Multiple inheritance is not directly supported in Objective-C, a situation that many feel is an advantage, but some may miss. Multiple inheritance can be simulated using Objective-C's ability to forward unimplemented messages to another object which can provide the functionality that multiple inheritance might provide. I don't think most programmers feel that the lack of true multiple inheritance is a problem. > I've heard this in several places but it doesn't matter. The NextStep > OS has been rejected by the marketplace over the last 9 years. Next has > not made money in the past 3 years. Unfortunately, I'd say that Apple shares a lot of these same problems with NeXT. As you know, technical excellence doesn't necessarily correlate well with market success. You're discussing technical issues here, not lame marketing which NeXT and Apple are both guilty of. People who buy Macs don't buy them > to acess 'legacy' systems. Apple has stated that it intends to target such markets, though. But then we've never accessed a legacy system with our NeXT machines, either. We use them for client access to today's database servers, not yesterday's legacy systems. > Anyways, If there are so many developers for OpenStep, where are all the > Objective-C books?? I searched compubooks database. With over 8700 > books listed, there are only 2 for Objective-C, and one of them is from > Next! Once you see how simple Objective-C is compared with C++, you'll understand why few books exist. Any C++ programmer can learn Objective-C in a day of self-study with the documentation supplied by NeXT. The language isn't where most of OPENSTEP's power lies - it's in the object kits where most of the learning process must occur. And one really needs to understand object-oriented analysis and design which isn't an Objective-C issue per se. If in fact there is this extensive developer community out there > they must keep to themselves a lot. They are mostly in large companies doing in-house mission-critical application development, something that these companies don't care to advertise to their competitors. Then there are the 3-letter government agencies that don't talk about anything they do :-) > Given that Apple has decided to go with a unix based OS, why didn't they > just reprise Aux? Must be because of everything else that OPENSTEP has to offer. We take the underlying operating system for granted and don't deal with it much in our programming. The OPENSTEP object kits and development tools are where the real value lies. The underlying operating system provides the solid support for robust applications, something that has been missing from the Mac but that doesn't seem like a big deal to us. However, we'd hate to be without it. I'm pretty dismayed by all of the antagonism that's being exchanged among Mac and OPENSTEP programmers. We're going to need help from each other in the future if we're going to make this thing work, so let's not poison the atmosphere at this early stage when none of us knows what's really going to happen. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.174.65.41!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!bertl From: Norbert Heger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 7 Jan 1997 11:13:33 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5atb4t$crq@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> Reply-To: Norbert Heger NNTP-Posting-Host: edvtsmb15.tuwien.ac.at Originator: bertl@gemini David Riedel writes > Anyways, If there are so many developers for OpenStep, where are all the > Objective-C books?? I searched compubooks database. With over 8700 > books listed, there are only 2 for Objective-C, and one of them is from > Next! That shows how easy programming can be using Objective-C. You don't NEED more than two books! Sorry, I couldn't resist... ;-) - N.C. _________________________________________________________________ Norbert C. Heger NEXTSTEP / OpenStep Software Development NeXTmail preferred, MIME is welcome Please finger for PGP public key #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 7 Jan 1997 03:42:08 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 83 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) writes: >In article , jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: >[ lots of source code of GX & DPS- snip] >First, if it's Apple source code, there's no telling how verbose it really >is (Apple has yet to provide a nice, clean, tight piece of sample code >ever). Good point. I remember the examples in Inside Macintosh from my system 6.x days. >Second, it appears that the GXShape can be retained and used later, but >the DPS object is hard-coded MoveTo, LineTo. This appears to be a more >object oriented approach for GX. A more accurate comparison would be to >create an object in DPS that you could keep around and that could draw >itself at different rotations and such. Actually, if I were following the usual practice in NEXTSTEP coding, I'd have defined a Shape class, which had orientation, color, etc. attributes, which any View could use. (Note to non-NeXT programmers: a View in NeXTSTEP is an object which renders part of the contents of a window, and receives the events that occur within that part. Views have a clipping boundary, they have a postscript drawing context, they can draw themselves to the screen, or to the printing machinery.) Incidentally, I coud have created a userpath in the DPS server, if I wanted it to stick around. userpaths take advantage of the font-caching system, and they're very fast. >Third, it also looks like the printing code is generic enough to cover all >the GX printing - it's quite possible to have a library call that you'd >pass a GXPicture to and that's that. >Fourth, the lines of source code is valid for some things, but the >question is - how much native code is generated by the DPS lines. And how >fast is each one. That's what is really important. I will also mention, that the example I wrote previously is using the single-operator PS library calls, which is not the most efficient way to do this. I could also have written my rendering code in PS, and run it through pswrap to generate a binary object sequence. >Fifth, I believe one of the advantages of GX (from what I've been told) is >that it is extensible and that DPS requires a change in the definition of >DPS language (with a backward compatible interpreter for odl stuff) for >additions to it. PS is a threaded intrepeted language. What could possibly be more extensible? If I write: /rectpath { /x exch def /y exch def /w exch def /h exch def newpath x y moveto w 0 rlineto 0 h rlineto w neg 0 rlineto closepath } bind def Then rectpath works just like it had always been there. In fact, I know of research projects where people used postscript to add functionality to servers and device drivers, that had nothing to do with graphics. It is a turing-complete programming language. You can write a LISP interpreter in it if you like! -jcr >There are lots of things wrong with GX, but there are lots of things right >with it.. >Just my two cents. >Mark Munz #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.radio.cz!voskovec.radio.cz!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!ascend6.netrover.com!user From: nervous@system.net (Nervous) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 00:33:10 -0500 Organization: Central Nervous System Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ascend6.netrover.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21382 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51508 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177237 comp.sys.mac.system:190100 Dated: 1.6.97 The exclusive information can be found at: http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.912.html In brief - System 7.6 Harmony in late January - System 7.7 Tempo in July - System 7.8 Allegra in early 1998 - System 7.9 Sonata in mid-1998 - MacOS 8 code-named Rhapsody (in blue? see below) - 'Blue Box' window in Rhapsody to run System 7.x applications - new OS based on NeXTStep is called 'Yellow Box' - NeXTStep interface to be Mac-like. (Sorry NeXT mongers =) "...the company is convinced that the Mac OS's human interface is the best available and wants to ensure that this approach is maintained." (MacWorld 1.6.97) - UNIXness of MacOS 8 will be hidden - Appearance Manager to be implemented - continued support of Intel x86 and SunSparc versions of NeXTStep OS -- GO Mac GO!!! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 12:35:31 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32D28963.6C27@exnext.com.nonsense> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com.nonsense NNTP-Posting-Host: cin-oh4-23.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jan 07 9:35:02 AM PST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21383 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51604 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177352 Followups trimmed. Nervous wrote: > - NeXTStep interface to be Mac-like. (Sorry NeXT mongers =) > > "...the company is convinced that the Mac OS's human interface is > the best available and wants to ensure that this approach is > maintained." (MacWorld 1.6.97) Cutting the first part of that statement is a little dishonest, nervous. The full statement is: "While Apple will adopt some NextStep conventions, the company is convinced that the Mac OS's human interface is the best available and wants to ensure that this approach is maintained." Sorry, 'nervous'. Care to guess what those NextStep conventions might be? Left-side scrollbars? Menus? Dock? Browser? -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 18:23:44 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 121 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> David Riedel writes: > Anyways, If there are so many developers for OpenStep, where are all the > Objective-C books?? I searched compubooks database. With over 8700 > books listed, there are only 2 for Objective-C, and one of them is from > Next! If in fact there is this extensive developer community out there > they must keep to themselves a lot. There is very little need for an Objective-C book. Reason: Objective C is REALLY EASY. I do own a copy of "the" ObjectiveC book (Object Oriented Programming, an Evolutionary Aproach, Brad Cox and somoneoneelseski), and it's a great read, but only a small part of it is about teaching the language, and much of it is about concepts and ideas. I've programmed NeXTStep commercially for a few years, in a number of places, and many developers have never read it, and no one ever needs to refer to it. Contrast this with C++ there "the" book is three times thicker, and is entirly dedicated to trying to explain the language (including long lists of pratfalls waiting for anyone who is less than perfect to fall into). Every C++ programmer has a copy of this book, and most (self included) keep a copy by their desk. (Stroustrup (see I can spell this one cause its 4" form my left hand) new little about designing programming languages but everything about setting himself up a nice nestegg as an author) For those that DONT want to read teh ObjC book: $ans 5 minute tutotial on Objective C to define a class: #include "SuperClass.h" @interface MyClass : SuperClass { int instanceVar; float anotherInstanceVar; id aGenericObject; } +AClassMethod; -anInstanceMethod; -anInstanceMethodWith:param; -anInstanceMethodWith:param and:anotherParm; -anInstanceMethodWith:param and:anotherParm and:paramEtc; //Not the following has a non object param -setFloatValue:(float)val; @end Put the above in MyClass.h The following in MyClass.m @implementation MyClass +aClassMethod { puts("This is a class method - they're quite rare"); } -anInstanceMethod { //Call anInstanceMethodWith: in the current object //with a parameter of 0 [self anInstanceMethodWith:nil]; } -anInstanceMethodWith:param { //Param is of type id. // If our parameter was nil then make one if(param=nil) { //init is a convention //it is the standard default initialiser param=[[AClass alloc] init]; //Note Capital first letter for a Class (convention) //Lowercase first letter for an instance (convention) //param could be initiallised by a something more complex } //note we DON'T real know the class of param //it could be AClass, but not necessaritly [param setIntValue:instanceVar]; } -setFloatValue:(float)val { //If val is <= 0 we use the implementation in our superclass if(val >0) floatValue=val; else [super setFloatValue:val]; } .... implement all the rest .... @end There are also Catagories: @interface MyClass (aCatagory) -moreMethods; @end @implementaion MyClass (aCatagory) -moreMethods { //Clever bit thats you don't HAVE to know [aGenericObject makeObjectPerform:@selector(wibble)]; //Is a clever way of doing // [aGenericObject wibble]; // but @selector(wibble) is an expression which can //be assigned and passed as a parameter! } @end Adds another method to MyClass, so it can be broken up. Thats about it! The only other thing I can think of are Protocols, and they're not a core part of the language. It's REALLY hard to spin that out to a whole book. Hence there are no books. Perhaps it should have been made more difficult, and then you'd be happy! $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!speering.alleg.edu!news From: cortesr@alleg.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 7 Jan 1997 19:38:07 GMT Organization: Allegheny College Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5au8mv$j8l@speering.alleg.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D28963.6C27@exnext.com.nonsense> NNTP-Posting-Host: gemini.alleg.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21385 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51632 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177386 Jonathan: Might wanna check out: http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.912.html Tells details on the new os. Ricardo -- Ricardo Cortes Allegheny College cortesr@alleg.edu (NeXTMail OK) http://ace.alleg.edu/~cortes #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-pdx03-33.teleport.com!user From: dave@rsd.com (Dave Goldman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 13:17:46 -0800 Organization: Research Software Design Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-pdx03-33.teleport.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10964 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3410 comp.sys.next.programmer:21386 In article , jamesl@io.com (James Lee) wrote: > In article <32CF1721.1883@rahul.net>, arnold@lumina.com wrote (among many > other insightful things): > > We all know viscerally that developers largely do not embrace > > change, they tend to stick to legacy code on shipping OSes. > Actually, I disagree with this statement. This is usually a management > decision... > ... Most developers I know love having the latest tools work in > and frameworks to work with. For the purposes of this sort of discussion, it seems to me that the term "developer" refers to the _organization_ that develops software. Doesn't really change the outcome if it's management making the decision rather than the programmers. -- Dave Goldman Research Software Design #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!ranvier!jstrout From: Joseph Strout Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 15:06:37 -0800 Organization: The University of California at San Diego Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ranvier.ucsd.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: jstrout@ranvier In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21387 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51702 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177466 comp.sys.mac.system:190243 gOn Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Nervous wrote: > - NeXTStep interface to be Mac-like. (Sorry NeXT mongers =) > > "...the company is convinced that the Mac OS's human interface is > the best available and wants to ensure that this approach is > maintained." (MacWorld 1.6.97) It can't be the best available, since it lacks proportionally sized scroll bars. GS/OS, NextStep, X-Windows, and others all have this. (Ironically, Apple had it first, with GS/OS, but they never moved it to the Mac.) Smart Scroll helps, but too many apps do funky things with their scroll bars that Smart Scroll can't figure out... OTOH, I just saw that BeOS is available for off-the-shelf PowerMacs now, and it already runs MacOS apps! And it should be shipping (non-beta) soon. Sounds like a good deal to me! ,------------------------------------------------------------------. | Joseph J. Strout Department of Neuroscience, UCSD | | jstrout@ucsd.edu http://www-acs.ucsd.edu/~jstrout/ | `------------------------------------------------------------------' #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!news.global-one.no!news1.transpac.net!news5.transpac.net!news.netg.se!dd.chalmers.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 6 Jan 1997 18:45:17 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 65 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5arh7t$2no@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5aq4vt$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: haddock.cd.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10965 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3412 comp.sys.next.programmer:21388 In <5aq4vt$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell wrote: >John Hornkvist wrote: > >> By the way, IIRC almost every major change of NEXTSTEP has forced >> developers to rewrite applications. /.../ > > This seems overstated. We have been developing under NEXTSTEP since 1.0a >and our only rewrite has been the recent NEXTSTEP->OPENSTEP conversion, much >of which was handled by automated conversion tools supplied with OPENSTEP. >When NEXTSTEP 2.0 was released, the small number of classes and methods that >were scheduled to become obsolete were supported through the various 2.x >releases and dropped when 3.0 was released allowing more than a year to >replace obsoleted code. I can't recall anything similar when 3.0 was >released other than several new object kits being added although there may >have been a few more obsoleted classes and methods that were supported >through the 3.x releases. I did not enter the NS world until version 3.2, but I have definitely heard complaints from developers about changes in the kits requiring them to rewrite applications. Those developing for the Music Kit, or DSP kit would be examples of that, I imagine. > When I worked on the NEXTSTEP port of WingZ, originally a Mac app, the >port was not nearly as easy as you imply. Many of the View classes are >provided by NeXT and included without code using InterfaceBuilder. This >didn't seem to be the case with the Mac version for which much View code >existed and had to be converted to InterfaceBuilder nib files. But MacApp >may not have been used for the original WingZ, so maybe this isn't a valid >comparison. If WingZ is a good example of how Macintosh apps are generally written, it does imply a problem. However, it may be easier for the original developers to do the port, since they are likely to be familiar with the code. >> Normally you do not have to change more than >> that when porting to NEXTSTEP. > > Methinks Mac apps will require a considerable porting effort >unless Apple and NeXT put a lot of effort into conversion tools. What worries me about this scenario is integration between the user interfaces. On the Amiga, for example there was a framework for easy porting of X-windows based applications. Those generally integrated far from seamlessly with the UI. The same was true with the transition from Amiga OS 1.3 to 2.0, where the look and feel of the UI changed. Old applications kept their look, and that was very negative. As I recall, most applications were quickly rewritten to benefit from the improved UI, though. Or replaced by applications from other sources with the new look and feel. To quote Percy Barnevik, board member of DuPont, and General Motors among other things: "It is better to be a little wrong early than to be completely right to late." --- John Hornkvist --- nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already... If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!tezcat!gail.ripco.com!news.tds.net!aumi3-a03.ccm.tds.net!user From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 20:46:55 -0500 Organization: Metrowerks Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5aq4vt$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <5arh7t$2no@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: aumi3-a03.ccm.tds.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10967 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3416 comp.sys.next.programmer:21389 In this press release today, METROWERKS & APPLE COMPUTER SIGN DEVELOPMENT AGREEMENT FOR PORTING CODEWARRIOR TOOLS TO RHAPSODY, APPLE'S NEXT GENERATION OS Was this.... 3. Metrowerks PowerPlant To Be Transitioned to Rhapsody Metrowerks PowerPlant application framework will be transitioned to Rhapsody. Metrowerks and Apple Computer intend to outline and implement a transition strategy that will allow developers using Metrowerks' PowerPlant application framework to move their applications to Rhapsody as rapidly as possible. Ron -- METROWERKS Ron Liechty "Software at Work" MWRon@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com/about/people/rogues.html#mwron #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 7 Jan 1997 18:57:03 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <32D28963.6C27@exnext.com.nonsense> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.153 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21390 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51774 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177558 >The full statement is: > >"While Apple will adopt some NextStep conventions, the >company is convinced that the Mac OS's human interface >is the best available and wants to ensure that this approach is >maintained." > >Sorry, 'nervous'. Care to guess what those NextStep >conventions might be? Left-side scrollbars? Menus? >Dock? Browser? > From the various pieces taht I've seen (couldn't see the presentation, only heard it), System 7.9 will have the same GUI as the first bundled version of Rhapsody. Should be very interesting to see what they come up with. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 7 Jan 1997 20:04:00 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5as0e1$47q@news.internetmci.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.153 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20124 comp.sys.next.programmer:21391 > >> The OOP-ness of GX is in the API: all shape objects respond to the >> same calls in a type-appropriate manner. >> >> DrawShape(mShape); > >This is vastly different than NeXT's/Objective-C's: > > [mShape display]; Sure. In C++ it would have been: myShape.display; The problem is that GX was done before any way existed to create an OOP library for the Mac OS, so they needed a non-OOP API. OpenDOc does the same thing with the "ev" variable. --------------------------------------------------- "Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we should all go home." -Me --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!NewsWatcher!user From: carol1@apple.com (Andrew Carol) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 21:18:12 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> <5aq7uf$7vo@huffalump.visi.com> <32D2D0AD.6870@m4.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 17.219.103.211 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10968 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3418 comp.sys.next.programmer:21392 In article <32D2D0AD.6870@m4.sprynet.com>, piercej@sprynet.com wrote: > Not really. I didn't say processor dependant, I said OS dependant. > OpenStep is an OS and applications using it require it to be installed. OpenStep is _not_ an OS. It is an GUI API layed on top of an OS. OpenStep is runing today on at least 3 different OS's: 1) Solaris 2) Next Mach 3) NT -- Andrew Carol carol1@apple.com I do not speak for Apple. All opinions are my own. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!rockyd!cmcl2.nyu.edu!news.nyu.edu!bononno From: bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 22:55:57 -0500 Organization: Techline Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial3-async42.dial.net.nyu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21393 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51853 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177663 comp.sys.mac.system:190367 In article , Joseph Strout wrote: > >OTOH, I just saw that BeOS is available for off-the-shelf PowerMacs now, >and it already runs MacOS apps! And it should be shipping (non-beta) >soon. Sounds like a good deal to me! It does? I thought it didn't. BeOS will run my Mac applications? That's a possibility I had sort of forgotten about. And it will run on my 8500? Be has been hard at work I see. -- ------------------------------------------------------ Robert Bononno - bononno@acf2.nyu.edu - CIS:73670,1570 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!rockyd!cmcl2.nyu.edu!news.nyu.edu!bononno From: bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 22:52:44 -0500 Organization: Techline Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial3-async42.dial.net.nyu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21394 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51855 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177664 comp.sys.mac.system:190368 In article , nervous@system.net (Nervous) wrote: >Dated: 1.6.97 > >The exclusive information can be found at: > >http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.912.html > >In brief - System 7.6 Harmony in late January > - System 7.7 Tempo in July > - System 7.8 Allegra in early 1998 > - System 7.9 Sonata in mid-1998 > - MacOS 8 code-named Rhapsody (in blue? see below) Yeah, but like when? Already we're into mid-98 here. Assume Rhapsody is the NeXT-based OS for Macintosh. So this is 1.5 to 2 years away. That's a long, long time in this business. > - 'Blue Box' window in Rhapsody to run System 7.x applications > - new OS based on NeXTStep is called 'Yellow Box' > - NeXTStep interface to be Mac-like. (Sorry NeXT mongers =) Too bad. I was hoping they would go with the NeXT GUI. > > "...the company is convinced that the Mac OS's human interface is > the best available and wants to ensure that this approach is > maintained." (MacWorld 1.6.97) > > - UNIXness of MacOS 8 will be hidden Totally hidden? No Unix at all? I was hoping they'd keep that aspect for some reason. > - Appearance Manager to be implemented > - continued support of Intel x86 and SunSparc versions of NeXTStep OS Well, that's good. Might provide a revenue stream for Apple/NeXT. -- ------------------------------------------------------ Robert Bononno - bononno@acf2.nyu.edu - CIS:73670,1570 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!neon.mlink.net!NewsWatcher!user From: spamwall@zercom.net (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 8 Jan 1997 13:41:26 GMT Organization: Groupimage, inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.191.6.170 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21395 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51876 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177684 comp.sys.mac.system:190386 In article , nervous@system.net (Nervous) wrote: > Dated: 1.6.97 > > The exclusive information can be found at: > > http://www.macworld.com/daily/daily.912.html > > In brief - System 7.6 Harmony in late January > - System 7.7 Tempo in July > - System 7.8 Allegra in early 1998 > - System 7.9 Sonata in mid-1998 > - MacOS 8 code-named Rhapsody (in blue? see below) [...] This isn't exclusive at all. I've downloaded all of this info (in great details, including time graphs) on Jan 7th at 4pm (eastern time), off Apple's DevWorld web site. At that time, www.apple.com was totally inaccessible (lots of trafics I guess), so lowwing to www.devworld.apple.com gave all info requested. Download at will. ================================================================= Please reply using the following address, rather than the "reply-to" address (my mail box is being filled with junk mail). ================================================================= Martin-Gilles Lavoie | Opinions expressed herein are just that. mouser@zercom.net | "No! Do, or do not. There is no try." Globimage, inc. | --Yoda on error handling #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.160.4!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news From: stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 01:30:28 -0800 Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 22 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: line014.nwm.mindlink.net ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) wrote: >[impressively concise example using nearly all of Objective-C] > >Thats about it! The only other thing I can think of are Protocols, and >they're not a core part of the language. > >It's REALLY hard to spin that out to a whole book. Hence there are no >books. Perhaps it should have been made more difficult, and then you'd be >happy! You really seem to have covered the basics. I'd like to ask one question though: occasionally I see code that uses expressions like @"string" @(..., ..., ...) What are these things? There's no mention of them in NeXT's Objective-C book. --------------------------------------- Stephen Ma #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.160.4!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news From: stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Interface Builder tutorial: rtfd headache Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 01:41:04 -0800 Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 15 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: line014.nwm.mindlink.net I downloaded the Interface Builder tutorial from ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/documents/next/NeXT_IB_Tutorial.tar.gz but found to my dismay that it's in NeXT rtfd format. It seems almost compatible with standard PC word processors, but not quite. I suppose I could hack it until it fits, but I understand that anyone running NeXT could easily convert it to Postscript. Would some kind soul upload the Postscript (or, better yet, the Acrobat PDF) to peak? Thanks. --------------------------------------- Stephen Ma #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!151.atlanta-10.ga.dial-access.att.net!user From: onscrn@aol.com (Bob Estes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Basic question about OpenStep Date: 8 Jan 1997 14:56:56 GMT Organization: OnScreen Science, Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.116.129.151 Please excuse my ignorance, but it's amazing how many messages on OpenStep I've read without getting the answer to this basic question: Is OpenStep required to be present in order to run programs written using OpenStep? My assumption had always been yes, but I've read so many times that "if you write an OpenStep program it automatically will run on NT etc." I'm confused. So, can anyone with a machine running "stock" NT (no OpenStep addition of any kind) fire up a program written using OpenStep (compiled for the particular type of machine the user has) and run it? Bob Estes onscrn@aol.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!ascend3.netrover.com!user From: nervous@system.net (Nervous) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 8 Jan 1997 14:54:30 GMT Organization: Central Nervous System Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ascend3.netrover.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21399 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51901 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177707 comp.sys.mac.system:190396 In article , bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: In article , Joseph Strout wrote: > >OTOH, I just saw that BeOS is available for off-the-shelf PowerMacs now, >and it already runs MacOS apps! And it should be shipping (non-beta) >soon. Sounds like a good deal to me! It does? I thought it didn't. BeOS will run my Mac applications? That's a possibility I had sort of forgotten about. And it will run on my 8500? Be has been hard at work I see. Only 68K apps that aren't hardware dependent. -- rhapsody: rhap.so.dy \'rap-s*d-e-\ n recitation of selections from epic poetry; a highly emotional utterance or literary work; RAPTURE, ECSTASY; the new Macintosh OS. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!usenet From: "Dirk P. Fromhein" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 11:32:41 +0500 Organization: Watershed Technologies, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <32D33F89.7C0E@watershed.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5aq4vt$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <5arh7t$2no@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: minglewood.watershed.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) To: MW Ron Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10971 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3423 comp.sys.next.programmer:21400 I've used both NeXT's AppKit and Wetrowerks' PowerPlant. Getting PowerPlant to work under the AppKit will be a very very difficult thing. The development methodology differs greatly between C++ and Objective-C, you can't map on to the other... you just can't. Take a good hard long look at InterfaceBuilder for NeXTSTEP. What do you see? No code generation! You can't do a InterfaceBuilder with C++ without doing code generation. Will PowerPlant be Objective-C or C++? My point is that if you are going to go with a new paradigm, go with it. At some point you have to cut the baggage loose. Every project I have worked with that started with the premise that "we have to build on what we have even if it's not all that great" or "this new technology is cool, but we have to hedge our bets and keep some tie to what everyone else is using" has ended up being late, slow, bloated, and buggy. Only when you embrace a new technology (that is sound) and use it to it's limits do you get the phenomial bennefits most projects are looking for. It's interesting that Art mentioned WingZ, I find it a perfect example of the above. The app was very cool (unbelievably fast), but the UI was a "port". It did not feel like a NeXT app, nor did it behave like one. Most NeXT sites decided to go with a more natural fit, a spreadsheet that felt like a NeXT application (that I happened to work on: Mesa). Not that we should not have hired a GUI designer... :-) I've been doing NeXTSTEP since '90 and the Mac since '87. NeXTSTEP was love at first sight. I really hope that Apple does not screw NeXSTEP up while trying to preserve the past, they have already made some disturbing comments (I'm betting that they will screw it up). But all this is irrelevant as I think Java will be *THE* programming language from now on (for custom apps and even shrinkwap apps). Cheers, Dirk Fromhein df@watershed.com ================ Sure, Win95 == MacOS 85, but don't forget MacOS 97 == MacOS 85 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 8 Jan 1997 16:53:33 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b0jed$89r@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5aq4vt$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <5arh7t$2no@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca9-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jan 08 8:53:33 AM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10972 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3425 comp.sys.next.programmer:21401 John Hornkvist wrote: > What worries me about this scenario is integration between the user > interfaces. On the Amiga, for example there was a framework for > easy porting of X-windows based applications. Those generally > integrated far from seamlessly with the UI. > The same was true with the transition from Amiga OS 1.3 to 2.0, > where the look and feel of the UI changed. Old applications kept > their look, and that was very negative. The DPS window server used by OPENSTEP along with some changes to the various UI classes seem to be able to produce the NEXTSTEP, Windows 95, and Solaris (I believe) looks-and-feels and native behaviors quite well, so I assume that the Mac look-and-feel will be relatively easy to produce as well. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 8 Jan 1997 17:02:43 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b0jvj$89r@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> <5aq7uf$7vo@huffalump.visi.com> <32D2D0AD.6870@m4.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca9-08.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jan 08 9:02:43 AM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10973 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3427 comp.sys.next.programmer:21402 piercej@m4.sprynet.com wrote: > OpenStep is an OS OPENSTEP/Mach is an OS, but OPENSTEP/NT and OPENSTEP/Solaris aren't OS's - they're development and runtime environments that require the support of an underlying OS. and applications using it require it to be installed. > It is impossible for me to ship applications on W95 and WindowsNT > without requiring users to license and install OpenStep first. > > Even if users could obtain it free, they may not be willing to install > the environment since it adds overhead they may not feel is justified. Many Windows apps require the dynamic link libraries (DLLs) used to support their development environments. These DLLs are delivered with apps. This is the same approach used by OPENSTEP/NT whose runtime consists of DLLs and several (4?) daemons (processes running in the background). But your point of additional overhead is a valid one. OPENSTEP/NT probably increases overhead more than most runtime environments because it includes its own DPS window server, name server used for interapplication communications even across networks, Mach emulation daemon, and pasteboard server. Including these components eased the port of OPENSTEP to NT and adds capabilities that were not available under NT, so the news isn't all bad. I'm sure that this overhead can be reduced somewhat given a little more time and effort. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!clapge.apple.com!user From: geoff.clapp@apple.com (Geoffrey Clapp) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 09:42:50 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: clapge.apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10974 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3428 comp.sys.next.programmer:21403 In article , ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) wrote: >OK... I've never actually USED MacApp, but as I understand it, it's very >simlar _in_principle_ to the AppKit. The AppKit and OpenStep frameworks are very similar to MacApp, PowerPlant, MFC, TCL, etc. etc. The question is where do we go and how do we get there. MetroWerks has already committed to PowerPlant for Rhapsody, but what does that really mean in terms of code portability, etc? Who knows....there are a ton of issues to still work out. >A port of MacApp threfore DOESN'T make sense, because the AppKit provides >the same basic functionality, but in a more complete, and standard way - >all NeXT apps (with very few exceptions) use the AppKit. And I have never used AppKit, but in pure number of classes, methods, and coverage, it is a less mature, smaller framework than MacApp. It certainly does not cover the breath of OS type features that MacApp does, but it does cover other areas more completley. I think what you are seeing is that there might be a convergence opporunity. I am amazed how many people think this has to be an all or none....it's a "merger" right? ;-> >> Will I be able to port my MacApp programs to NeXT? >you will be able to _PORT_ them. .....or run them in the compatilbility layer "blue box" geoffrey -------------------------------------------- Geoffrey Clapp Apple Computer, Inc. OpenDoc Engineering geoff.clapp@apple.com -------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Message-ID: <32D40A8C.712@nmaa.org> Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 12:58:52 -0800 From: Daniel Fahey Organization: DanSources Technical Services Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: JOBS: Next Developers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp21.nmaa.org Lines: 14 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news8.digex.net!204.91.49.12!ppp21.nmaa.org Dear Nexstep Developers We are seeking a bunch of Nextstep, EOF, Objective-C Developers for the monster program in Northern Virginia. Please contact us (301-217-0425)if you are interested. This program will have a lot CORBA exposure to connect with the Legacy. You would be working with the CORBA Developers and learn CORBA.. Thanks Sincerely, Dan Fahey #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!purdue!oitnews.harvard.edu!infobhan.med.harvard.edu!user From: ibhan@student.med.harvard.edu (Ishir Bhan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:36:04 -0500 Organization: Harvard Medical School Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: infobhan.med.harvard.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21405 comp.sys.next.advocacy:51967 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177782 comp.sys.mac.system:190438 In article , bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: > Yeah, but like when? Already we're into mid-98 here. Assume Rhapsody is the > NeXT-based OS for Macintosh. So this is 1.5 to 2 years away. That's a long, > long time in this business. Rhapsody is supposed to be released at the same time as 7.8. That is, one year from now. The developer release will preceed it by several months (possibly as soon as 6). -- Ishir Bhan Harvard Medical School '00 ibhan@student.med.harvard.edu http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~ibhan #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: SoundChaser Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Basic question about OpenStep Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 10:44:38 -0800 Organization: hmmm Lines: 22 Message-ID: <32D3EB16.65C@velodrome.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: velodrome.eng.sun.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Bob Estes wrote: > > Please excuse my ignorance, but it's amazing how many messages on OpenStep > I've read without getting the answer to this basic question: Is OpenStep > required to be present in order to run programs written using OpenStep? Yes > My assumption had always been yes, but I've read so many times that "if you > write an OpenStep program it automatically will run on NT etc." I'm Marketing Hype > confused. So, can anyone with a machine running "stock" NT (no OpenStep > addition of any kind) fire up a program written using OpenStep (compiled > for the particular type of machine the user has) and run it? No > > Bob Estes > onscrn@aol.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 8 Jan 1997 19:15:04 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5b0rno$48e@news.xmission.com> References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) wrote: > [...] I'd like to ask one > question though: occasionally I see code that uses expressions like > > @"string" > @(..., ..., ...) > > What are these things? There's no mention of them in NeXT's > Objective-C book. This is syntactic sugar--almost a macro. The first one creates an NSString object with the specified value and the second creates an NSArray populated with the comma delimited list of objects between the parenthesis. Pretty simple stuff and a recent addition to the compiler as of the creation of the NeXT FoundationKit. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:31:12 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32D3E7F0.4EE1@exnext.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10975 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3429 comp.sys.next.programmer:21408 Geoffrey Clapp wrote: > > In article , ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) > wrote: > > >OK... I've never actually USED MacApp, but as I understand it, it's very > >simlar _in_principle_ to the AppKit. > > The AppKit and OpenStep frameworks are very similar to MacApp, PowerPlant, > MFC, TCL, etc. etc. Please, Geoffrey. Please don't mention MFC in the same sentence as the NeXT frameworks (and MacApp and PowerPlant), let alone say they're 'very similar'. ;) -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 8 Jan 1997 19:23:19 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 13 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5b0s77$26t@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: stephen_ma@mindlink.net In <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> Stephen Ma wrote: > You really seem to have covered the basics. I'd like to ask one > question though: occasionally I see code that uses expressions like > > @"string" > @(..., ..., ...) > > What are these things? There's no mention of them in NeXT's > Objective-C book. > @"string" just means allocate an instance of NSString representing "string" #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.agtac.net!news.telusplanet.net!news From: cgruber@q-soft.com (Christian Gruber) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 8 Jan 1997 20:02:41 GMT Organization: Quintessence Software Foundry Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.34.80.169 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10976 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3432 comp.sys.next.programmer:21410 In article <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner>, kilgallen@eisner.decus.org says... > >_Requiring_ any particular language due to OS limitations is a >mistake. Let a thousand flowers bloom. > >Larry Kilgallen For the record, I have it from reliable sources that OPENSTEP as released and supported by Next Software Inc. for the NT platform will include java as a completely interchangable language with objective-c, and given Apple's support for java, there is no reason to suppose this will change for an apple/next os with openstep. The objective-c and java object models are incredibly similar, even if the syntax is not and I already have a complete port of the Enterprise Object Framework and the Foundation framework in java as extensions to the WebObjects 3.0 system. This allows me to arbitrarily write objects in Objective-C, C++, Java, or procedural code in C, or scripted OO code in Webscript and have each of these pieces talk to each other as if these pieces were in the language I am calling them from (slight simplification, but the translation mechanism is pretty darned good.) So if you don't like obj-c then go with java, as of 4.2 or the next release after that, I am told (unauthenticated, but insider info) Openstep's next project and development tools will natively support java compilation just as they do obj-c now. (In fact Project builder already does with the WO3.0 server side java extensions, but this is beta software.) There's no way we're going to avoid java as a language with any kind of work related to the internet in a few months or years, so we may as well accept getting that particular language rammed down your throat if you don't like obj-c. Sincerely Christian Gruber #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.com!usenet From: "Dirk P. Fromhein" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 16:05:50 +0500 Organization: Watershed Technologies, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <32D37F8E.57A3@watershed.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: minglewood.watershed.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10977 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3433 comp.sys.next.programmer:21411 Geoffrey Clapp wrote: 1: > The AppKit and OpenStep frameworks are very similar to MacApp, PowerPlant, [munch] 2: > And I have never used AppKit [munch] Now how do you claim 1 and then say 2. The AppKit/OpenStep have nothing in common with MacApp, PowerPlant, TCL, etc. And I HAVE used them all (well MacApp only for a very short while). The design/implementation methods are from two different paradigms. They are totaly incompatible. Any attempt to combine the two is doomed to be slow, bloated, buggy, and fail. The AppKit is the most beautiffuly crafted class library I have ever seen. The only poor implementation detail was how they did PopUp menus. Well it shold be entertaining at the least... Dirk Fromhein df@watershed.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!clapge.apple.com!user From: geoff.clapp@apple.com (Geoffrey Clapp) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:05:06 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> NNTP-Posting-Host: clapge.apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10978 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3434 comp.sys.next.programmer:21412 In article <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner>, kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >In article <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: > >> If they don't use the OpenStep API's, why would they bother buying >> NeXT? > >Memory protection, an OS kernel, scheduling, ... > Apple has made no official announcement on the kernel technology to be used in the new OS (as of yesterday's keynote, anyway, the way things are moving around here, it might be announced! ;->) geoffrey -------------------------------------------- Geoffrey Clapp Apple Computer, Inc. OpenDoc Engineering geoff.clapp@apple.com -------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!clapge.apple.com!user From: geoff.clapp@apple.com (Geoffrey Clapp) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 13:09:50 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD3BBF.1750@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.140054.1@eisner> <5ak603$9je@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: clapge.apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10979 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3435 comp.sys.next.programmer:21413 In article <5ak603$9je@news3.digex.net>, jkheit@cnj.digex.net wrote: >kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: >> Regardless of how good the NeXTstep user interface might be, the >> consuming public will not stand for having it forced down their >> throats, and would desert Macintosh in droves if Apple were to >> insist on changing the interface. > >Again and the citation for this absolute truism? It taint >necessarily so. Apple was planning on 'shoving' a new UI down the >throats of mac users anyway, the only difference is this UI wasn't >invented there.... Funny, the company isn't doing the "not invented >here" thing anymore. In fairness to Larry, the Copland UI was very similar to the traditional 7.x UI. It was not the case of shoving a totally new UI onto users, as Ellen and other have said the "NextOS"/Rhapsody project will not do, either. gjc -------------------------------------------- Geoffrey Clapp Apple Computer, Inc. OpenDoc Engineering geoff.clapp@apple.com -------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!frankensun.altair.com!newsserver.pixel.kodak.com!news.kodak.com!newsserver.rdcs.Kodak.COM!usenet From: Joe Nekrasz Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 13:15:29 -0800 Organization: Eastman Kodak Company Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: Joe Nekrasz NNTP-Posting-Host: 150.246.40.46 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; IRIX 6.3 IP32) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21414 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52032 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177853 comp.sys.mac.system:190497 > > - UNIXness of MacOS 8 will be hidden Any idea if we could still get to it if we want to, even if it is hidden? That's what I like about unix. The graphical system is nice, but it makes the OS so much more powerful when you can write scripts, use perl, and pipe things to do whatever but still drag a file to the trash. -- Joseph P. Nekrasz Pager: 415-253-6921 Systems Administrator Phone: 415-463-3040 Taos Mt. Software Email: jnekrasz@taos.com Palo Alto, CA or nekrasz@cineon.kodak.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Playing an audio stream Date: 8 Jan 1997 22:12:38 GMT Organization: NO ORGANIZATION, INC. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5b164m$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <5av8u8$rth@newsfeed.vivanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: dmr@westview.rochester.ny.us In <5av8u8$rth@newsfeed.vivanet.com> Daniel Rosenberg wrote: > Hi folks -- > I'm trying to play a network-acquired 8 bit mu-law audio > stream through the sound device. Now, on lesser machines, you just > pipe the stuff out to /dev/audio (or wherever) and viola, you get > RealAudio or IPhone or whatever. I'm finding on my Next (because I'm > pig ignorant) I've got to bcopy the stuff into a SNDSoundStruct and > SNDAlloc the structure each time before it'll play, and then it does > play, in short choppy bursts which make my audio sound like it's from > Mars. > > Is there a more raw interface to the sound device? Or does > anyone know of a way I can use the fancier NXAudioStream stuff which > seems to want converting into a 16 bit sample? > > The software I'm trying to convert, BTW, is WREK/Georgia > Tech's CyberAudio 1. > Look on my home page and you'll find everything done and ready. Well mostly... :-) (A port of CyberRadio to NS is in the download area) -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 16:38:44 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21416 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52055 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177884 comp.sys.mac.system:190518 In article , Joseph Strout wrote: > Smart Scroll helps, but too many apps do funky things with their scroll > bars that Smart Scroll can't figure out... Smart Scroll? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 16:41:58 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21417 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52056 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177885 comp.sys.mac.system:190519 In article , bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: > Totally hidden? No Unix at all? I was hoping they'd keep that aspect for > some reason. Personally I'd like to see it all removed, all that /bin, /usr stuff, and left out of the standard install. Then you could purchase (or download if you don't need support) a POSIX/Unix "support pack" that you could then optionally install and use if you need to support Unix utilities directly. It would seem that this is the best of both worlds, you get to use Unix if you want, and don't have it on the drive if you don't need it. Better yet you beat NT in this regard, which removed POSIX support and didn't have any of the standard shells or utilities anyway. Maury #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 59 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> X-Trace: 852761661/15995 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 22:13:54 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10980 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3438 comp.sys.next.programmer:21418 In article <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net>, cgruber@q-soft.com (Christian Gruber) writes: > In article <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner>, kilgallen@eisner.decus.org says... > >> >>_Requiring_ any particular language due to OS limitations is a >>mistake. Let a thousand flowers bloom. >> >>Larry Kilgallen > > For the record, I have it from reliable sources that OPENSTEP > as released and supported by Next Software Inc. for the NT platform > will include java as a completely interchangable language with > objective-c, and given Apple's support for java, there is no reason > to suppose this will change for an apple/next os with openstep. > > The objective-c and java object models are incredibly similar, even > if the syntax is not and I already have a complete port of the > Enterprise Object Framework and the Foundation framework in java > as extensions to the WebObjects 3.0 system. This allows me to > arbitrarily write objects in Objective-C, C++, Java, or procedural > code in C, or scripted OO code in Webscript and have each of these > pieces talk to each other as if these pieces were in the language > I am calling them from (slight simplification, but the translation > mechanism is pretty darned good.) > > So if you don't like obj-c then go with java, as of 4.2 or the next > release after that, I am told (unauthenticated, but insider info) > Openstep's next project and development tools will natively support > java compilation just as they do obj-c now. (In fact Project builder > already does with the WO3.0 server side java extensions, but this is > beta software.) I apologize for that long quotation (I hate it when people do that), but I felt it necessary how long someone can rattle on without mentioning any language which interests me. In fact, they all seem to be derivatives of C !!! How about: Ada, Basic, Cobol, Eiffel, Fortran, LISP, Pascal, PL/I and Prolog. Particular languages are useful for particular problem domains. To the person who has only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. > There's no way we're going to avoid java as a language with any kind > of work related to the internet in a few months or years, so we > may as well accept getting that particular language rammed down your > throat if you don't like obj-c. I certainly disagree. Even if one considers "languages one can send over the net for extremely trusting individuals to execute in their own security context" (a _very_ small part of "work related to the internet"), the only element Java has going for it is the planned pervasiveness of the Java Byte Code engine. But Ada compilers can generate Java Byte Code just as good* as Java compilers !! Larry Kilgallen * some would say better than #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!clapge.apple.com!user From: geoff.clapp@apple.com (Geoffrey Clapp) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 14:13:12 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <32D37F8E.57A3@watershed.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clapge.apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10981 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3439 comp.sys.next.programmer:21419 In article <32D37F8E.57A3@watershed.com>, "Dirk P. Fromhein" wrote: >Geoffrey Clapp wrote: >1: >> The AppKit and OpenStep frameworks are very similar to MacApp, PowerPlant, >[munch] >2: >> And I have never used AppKit >[munch] > >Now how do you claim 1 and then say 2. My knowlegde of AppKit is academic, not commerical, so I wanted to qualify that before making sweeping comments so I would not be misunderstood as to my angle. I should have been more specific. My apologies. >The AppKit/OpenStep have nothing in common with MacApp, PowerPlant, TCL, >etc. And I HAVE used them all (well MacApp only for a very short >while). The goals and necessities are the same. I was not tring to suggest that all frameworks (which is why I listed MFC in the first posting) use the same models or approaches to problems, or even architectures or paradims. As you would know, each framework I listed, including the Mac-Specific, has varing architectures and paradims. The NeXT also has the OpenStep spec to consider, obviously, when discussing the merger or melding of these frameworks. I was commenting on from a design and metholodogy approach, not implemenation. Again, I apologize for any lack of clarity >The design/implementation methods are from two different paradigms. >They are totaly incompatible. Nor am I suggesting that MacApp or any other framework should be re-written in Objective-C, Java, or C++. I am talking at a higher level. The implementation details, despite the time I put in working on MacApp, is not of interest to me right now. >The AppKit is the most beautiffuly crafted class library I have ever >seen. The only poor implementation detail was how they did PopUp menus. And it is in the design that I hope something (which I refered to as a merger) will emerge, not just for the yellow box, but the blue as well. >Dirk Fromhein >df@watershed.com -------------------------------------------- Geoffrey Clapp Apple Computer, Inc. OpenDoc Engineering geoff.clapp@apple.com -------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 8 Jan 1997 23:46:18 GMT Organization: NO ORGANIZATION, INC. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: geoff.clapp@apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10982 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3440 comp.sys.next.programmer:21420 In Geoffrey Clapp wrote: > The AppKit and OpenStep frameworks are very similar to MacApp, PowerPlant, > MFC, TCL, etc. Yeah right! And the sun shines out of my backside (much harder word to be used here) :-) Sorry to tell but you are wrong. AppKit and OpenStep frameworks have in fact not much in common with MacApp, PowerPlant, MFC, TCL, etc. -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!ocean.netrover.com!ascend3.netrover.com!user From: nervous@system.net (Nervous) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 9 Jan 1997 02:01:18 GMT Organization: Central Nervous System Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <32D28963.6C27@exnext.com.nonsense> NNTP-Posting-Host: ascend3.netrover.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21421 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52109 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:177958 In article , "Lawson English" wrote: >The full statement is: > >"While Apple will adopt some NextStep conventions, the >company is convinced that the Mac OS's human interface >is the best available and wants to ensure that this approach is >maintained." > >Sorry, 'nervous'. Care to guess what those NextStep >conventions might be? Left-side scrollbars? Menus? >Dock? Browser? > From the various pieces taht I've seen (couldn't see the presentation, only heard it), System 7.9 will have the same GUI as the first bundled version of Rhapsody. Should be very interesting to see what they come up with. What was this mention of 3D windows? I didn't seem to read anything about it. Do you have any ideas? The Mac UI and NeXT UI are sure to be a killer combination. Maybe Wintel World will do a Hershey Bar in it's undies afterall. =) -- rhapsody: rhap.so.dy \'rap-s*d-e-\ n recitation of selections from epic poetry; a highly emotional utterance or literary work; RAPTURE, ECSTASY; the new Macintosh OS. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 01:47:27 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10983 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3443 comp.sys.next.programmer:21422 On 01/08/97, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > Particular languages are useful for particular problem domains. > To the person who has only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. > To go off on a tangent here, I saw a delightful .sig recently (I wish I knew who to give credit for this) along the lines of: If C++ is your hammer, every problem looks like a thumb. Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!usenet From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.be Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 02:40:31 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5b1lqv$abn@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: m.crawford@shef.ac.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10984 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3444 comp.sys.next.programmer:21423 comp.sys.be:20606 In <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote: > On 01/08/97, Larry Kilgallen wrote: > > Particular languages are useful for particular problem domains. > > To the person who has only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. > > > To go off on a tangent here, I saw a delightful .sig recently (I wish I knew > who to give credit for this) along the lines of: > > If C++ is your hammer, every problem looks like a thumb. > last year, in the middle of a discussion on various OO languages, the following came out of my mouth (I don't know where it came from inside me though..): For objects, Smalltalk is like working with astronaughts tools. They feel funny sometimes, but they always work incredibly well, and you know it was all carefully and elegantly thought out and designed. C++ is like working with a sledgehammer. Just a sledgehammer; no wrench, screwdriver, nor anything else. Not even a cast iron one. A big rock on the end of a stick. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com (ex- kzin@email.sjsu.edu) =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Spammers: I charge you for my time, disk, and bandwidth if you post off- topic solicitations for money in the groups I read. $500/post/group. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!bznews.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!a17-203-33-160.apple.com!rossetti From: Michael D. Rossetti Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 03:34:11 GMT Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. - MacApp Engineering Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: rosemi.apple.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Nuntius 2.0.4_PPC X-XXMessage-ID: X-XXDate: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 03:33:32 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10987 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3445 comp.sys.next.programmer:21424 In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > Multiple inheritance is not directly supported in Objective-C, a >situation that many feel is an advantage, but some may miss. Multiple >inheritance can be simulated using Objective-C's ability to forward >unimplemented messages to another object which can provide the functionality >that multiple inheritance might provide. I don't think most programmers feel >that the lack of true multiple inheritance is a problem. [Lots of great information in this thread! Lovin' it!] This is an interesting way to implement multiple inheritance. I guess this approach must mean that 'multiple inheritance' in Objective C is limited to only one base class and one 'proxy' class - is that correct? Can this occur multiple times in the hierarchy? That is, if class A2 derives from class A1 can A2 forward to B2 and A1 forward to B1? What is the overhead runtime cost of this approach? Curious minds want to know, Mike R. MacApp Engineering #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!bznews.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!a17-203-33-160.apple.com!rossetti From: Michael D. Rossetti Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 03:59:09 GMT Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. - MacApp Engineering Lines: 35 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b1qed$nlm@nntp1.apple.com> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: rosemi.apple.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Nuntius 2.0.4_PPC X-XXMessage-ID: X-XXDate: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 03:58:27 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10988 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3446 comp.sys.next.programmer:21425 In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > I'm pretty dismayed by all of the antagonism that's being exchanged among >Mac and OPENSTEP programmers. We're going to need help from each other in >the future if we're going to make this thing work, so let's not poison the >atmosphere at this early stage when none of us knows what's really going to >happen. > I guess I've sensed a bit of angst but not really any serious antagonism. Everyone is wondering where this NeXT deal is going to leave them and some 'news' coming out of the executive offices at Apple is a bit more reassuring than other news. But generally I think the discussion going on here has been pretty reasoned and I've archived many comments for use in developing and arguing the MacApp strategy. It is somewhat helpful in these discussions to keep in mind that there are two types of developers: those with existing software investments and those starting fresh. It appears that MacApp will be a major contributor to the former but will still be somewhat valuable for the latter. So our strategy needs to address both continued support for System 7, transition support for Mac OS 8, and some form of contribution to the 'native' framework for Mac OS 8. I'd like to point out that there is no complete framework for Mac OS 8 yet though many in this discussion have talked like OpenStep _is_ that framework. This will come when OpenStep has been modified to provide some form of Macintosh User Experience. Perhaps MacApp can contribute in this way, too. Anyway, this has been a most interesting discussion and I appreciate Nick Nallick kicking it off. Mike R. MacApp Engineering #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.196.139.12!news.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!nntp.dist.maricopa.edu!rtd.com!opus1.com!opus1.com!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Message-ID: <32D446AC.23A2@running-start.com> From: Eric Hermanson Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:15:24 -0800 Reply-To: eric@running-start.com References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> Organization: Running Start, Inc. Nntp-Posting-Host: universe.running-start.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 20 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10989 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3447 comp.sys.next.programmer:21426 Geoffrey Clapp wrote: > Apple has made no official announcement on the kernel technology to be > used in the new OS (as of yesterday's keynote, anyway, the way things are > moving around here, it might be announced! ;->) Steve Jobs said in the keynote address that the kernel would be Mach. Probably Mach 3.0 if they can optomize it to run faster than dog-slow. Eric -- Running Start, Inc. * Ask About Our Software For: "The Enterprise Developer's Developer" * Workflow http://www.running-start.com * Web Commerce +1-520-760-4890 (4891 FAX) * Request Resolution eric@running-start.com * OPENSTEP/WebObjects/JAVA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.196.139.12!news.Arizona.EDU!math.arizona.edu!noao!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!nntp.dist.maricopa.edu!rtd.com!opus1.com!opus1.com!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Message-ID: <32D44737.30CB@running-start.com> From: Eric Hermanson Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 17:17:43 -0800 Reply-To: eric@running-start.com References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> Organization: Running Start, Inc. Nntp-Posting-Host: universe.running-start.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 25 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10990 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3449 comp.sys.next.programmer:21427 Christian Gruber wrote: > For the record, I have it from reliable sources that OPENSTEP > as released and supported by Next Software Inc. for the NT platform > will include java as a completely interchangable language with > objective-c, and given Apple's support for java, there is no reason > to suppose this will change for an apple/next os with openstep. If you look at NeXT's web site, some of their documentation has already been "ported" to JAVA. This upsetted many Objective-C lovers, so NeXT agreed to write parallel Obj-C/JAVA documentation. It is clear NeXT is very serious about supporting JAVA. I wouldn't doubt if they're either implementing an OpenStep JAVA spec, or writing compilers that will compile Obj-C to JAVA bytecode? Eric -- Running Start, Inc. * Ask About Our Software For: "The Enterprise Developer's Developer" * Workflow http://www.running-start.com * Web Commerce +1-520-760-4890 (4891 FAX) * Request Resolution eric@running-start.com * OPENSTEP/WebObjects/JAVA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!mbk From: mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 9 Jan 1997 03:36:52 GMT Organization: The University of California at San Diego Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: poincare.ucsd.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1 PL8] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21428 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52183 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178061 comp.sys.mac.system:190624 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : In article , : bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: : > Totally hidden? No Unix at all? I was hoping they'd keep that aspect for : > some reason. : Personally I'd like to see it all removed, all that /bin, /usr stuff, : and left out of the standard install. Then you could purchase (or : download if you don't need support) a POSIX/Unix "support pack" that you : could then optionally install and use if you need to support Unix : utilities directly. No. This is stupid. It means that standard applications cannot assume the presence of useful unix style utilities. Users might not want to know about '/bin', but they do not want a program or internal script to die on account of its absence. : Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!hermod.uio.no!nntp.uio.no!nntp-trd.UNINETT.no!newsfeed.sunet.se!news99.sunet.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Basic question about OpenStep Date: 9 Jan 1997 00:38:50 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5b1emq$qmk@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: haddock.cd.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: onscrn@aol.com In Bob Estes wrote: >Please excuse my ignorance, but it's amazing how many messages on OpenStep >I've read without getting the answer to this basic question: Is OpenStep >required to be present in order to run programs written using OpenStep? My >assumption had always been yes, but I've read so many times that "if you >write an OpenStep program it automatically will run on NT etc." I'm >confused. So, can anyone with a machine running "stock" NT (no OpenStep >addition of any kind) fire up a program written using OpenStep (compiled >for the particular type of machine the user has) and run it? Running OpenStep programs requires that you have an OpenStep environment. This "environment" includes a DPS server, mach style name server, and OpenStep libraries. (And possibly more.) NeXT chose to confuse the issue by renaming the OpenStep compatible operating system NEXTSTEP 4.0 to OPENSTEP/Mach. --- John Hornkvist --- nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already... If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 06:40:10 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 275 Message-ID: <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10991 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3451 comp.sys.next.programmer:21430 Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, > aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > > Multiple inheritance is not directly supported in Objective-C, > > [...]. Multiple > > inheritance can be simulated using Objective-C's ability to > > forward unimplemented messages to another object which can > > provide the functionality that multiple inheritance might > > provide. I don't think most programmers feel that the lack > > of true multiple inheritance is a problem. > > This is an interesting way to implement multiple inheritance. > I guess this approach must mean that 'multiple inheritance' in > Objective C is limited to only one base class and one 'proxy' > class - is that correct? No, it isn't! When the Objective C runtime sees an object doesn't implement a method, the object's -forward: method is called and asked to deal with the unknown message. The default implementation of -forward: causes an exception and the program bails. But if you override it, you can choose to forward the message to any number of delegates--and you can even send it to more than one of them! In effect, you are extending the message dispatching system yourself, and you can do it any way you like, lending a lot of flexibility to the usage. A concrete example is the MiscKit's MiscTee object. What it does is act like a tee (as in plumbing)--send a message into it and it will turn around and pass the message on to every object on its "output", but only that that object actually responds to the message. The Tee itself doesn't respond to any of these messages. Instead, when you send it a message, that message is trapped by the -forward: method, which then loops through all the delegates and passes the message on to each of the ones that can handle it. Since the MiscTee can effectively respond to any message that is handled by any of the objects that is connected to it, we have overridden the -respondsTo: method as well. As you add and remove objects to the Tee's list of "delegates", the set of messages it responds to will appear to change! It turns out that that particular object is _really_ handy in some circumstances. (Especially in Interface Builder, where all GUI objects have a single target. With the MiscTee, they can have as many targets as you want! There's also an additional functionality where you can have the tee associate a _particular_ message with a particular delegate and then, when it gets a -ping: message, each delegate gets sent its particular message. Those who work with IB know how useful _that_ little treat is!) Anyway, since it is a reasonably good example of how the forwarding mechanism works, I'll append the source to this message. (Don't worry-it is pretty short, considering what it does.) I don't think you'll find any objects in C++ that implement this sort of functionality so cleanly and in such a generic way. :-) > Can this occur multiple times in the hierarchy? That is, > if class A2 derives from class A1 can A2 forward to B2 > and A1 forward to B1? Sure. You can code it any way you like. :-) Objective C, as simple as it is, is surprisingly flexible. You have hooks into _everything_. You can do some really nifty things. One of my all time favorites is ObjectivePerl and ObjectiveTCL by TipTop software. They have integrated Perl and Tcl (respectively) into Objective C so that you can write subclasses of Obj-C objects in Tcl or Perl. And, better yet, you can actually write Objective-C classes--which compile just fine--that descend from Tcl and Perl objects! The cool part of it is, if you're writing in Objective-C, the way you send messages to the objects is the same. Without actually querying the object, you can't tell what language it was written in. (You can ask and find out, using the appropriate messages, if you care.) Sending messages from the TCL and Perl sides requires you learn some minor extensions to those languages, however. Then, the real mind blower is that you can actually _mix_ the languages when defining a single class! A particular class could have methods implemented in TCL, Perl, and/or Objective-C. This same technology could be used to hook up Java (and it appears NeXT has done that with the latest WebObjects extensions for Java--may it make it back into the base OS!) or any other language you like. And it uses the hooks that have always been in Objective C. > What is the overhead runtime cost of this approach? Urm, well...it can be pretty bad, depending on how many times a message gets passed on to somebody else. Like any good thing, this can be taken to ridiculous extremes. You really have to benchmark a particular case of it--and that benchmark won't generalize very well. Basically, the overheads are: (a) messaging versus function call--a few CPU cycles more, and present in every Objective C message. Experience with NEXTSTEP has shown that this is fairly insignificant for all but the tightest computational loops (and, in those cases, you can ask Obj-C for a function pointer and turn the method call into a function call, so the point is moot). (b) forwarding means at least _two_ extra method dispatches than normal since you have (1) original call, (2) -forward:, and (3) message sent on to delegate. But there could be more-- how long is your chain of delegates? How many delegates are you sending messages to? In practice, (b) isn't too bad. The Objective TCL and Objective Perl products--even though Tcl and Perl are interpreted languages-- have shown surprisingly good performance! I wish I could give more concrete answers (numbers) but I don't have them handy. For those who are truly interested in how the dynamism of Objective C changes--and simplifies--OO programming (and how it simplifies many of the GOF Design Patterns), Andy Grosso and I have been working on some pages on the MiscKit web site that discuss all this. They aren't quite ready for prime time (yet), but I'll post the URL to comp.lang.[objective-c|java|c++] when they are ready for public consumption. The pages are dynamic, like a guest list page, so people will be able to create a discussion of sorts if they want to. If you're too curious and just can't wait for it, email me and I'll see what I can do. :-) Apple is doing a good thing in bringing Objective C to a wider audience--it isn't the end all, be all of languages, but it is a darned sight nicer to work with than C++! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page MiscTee source code: [I have cut out some of the methods that aren't germane to this discussion. If you want the whole object, grab the MiscKit. And anyone doing NeXT programming probably already has it...] [this comment block is cut out of the .m (source) below for brevity, but still applies to both portions] // MiscTee.h -- An object which will pass a message on to any of // the objects connected to it. This is useful for splitting // an action message to multiple recipients or for allowing // multiple delegates to be connected to provide different services. // // Written by David Fedchenko. Copyright 1994 by David Fedchenko. // Version 1.1 All rights reserved. // Additions by Don Yacktman to remove warnings and avoid infinite loops. // // This notice may not be removed from this source code. // // This object is included in the MiscKit by permission from the author // and its use is governed by the MiscKit license, found in the file // "LICENSE.rtf" in the MiscKit distribution. Please refer to that file // for a list of all applicable permissions and restrictions. #import @interface MiscTee:Object { id (idConnections); // a Storage object filled with CONPAIRs // which are defined in the source file (not here, since this is a // public header and CONPAIRs are a private structure) BOOL inTee; } - addConnection:anObject with:(SEL)anAction; - removeConnection:anObject; - ping:sender; - forward:(SEL)aSelector :(marg_list)argFrame; - (BOOL)respondsTo:(SEL)aSelector; @end // MiscTee.m // // Written by David Fedchenko. Copyright 1994 by David Fedchenko. // Version 1.1 All rights reserved. // This notice may not be removed from this source code. #import "MiscTee.h" typedef struct { // Object *idObject; // Using this would remove warnings _if_ isa were // not protected, but as things stand, we'll have to live with the // warnings. :-( That's what you get for "isa hacking"! //id idObject; // This is where we got warnings...original definition... struct objc_class *idObject; // This seems to work right... SEL selAction; } CONPAIR; @implementation MiscTee - ping:sender { int i; CONPAIR * pcp; if (inTee) return self; inTee = YES; for (i = 0; i < [idConnections count]; i++) { pcp = (CONPAIR *)[idConnections elementAt:i]; if (strcmp(pcp->idObject->isa->name, "FREED(id)") && pcp->idObject != sender && pcp->selAction) { [pcp->idObject perform:pcp->selAction with:sender]; } } inTee = NO; return self; } - forward:(SEL)aSelector :(marg_list)argFrame { int i; CONPAIR * pcp; void * pv = nil; BOOL fSent = NO; if (inTee) return self; inTee = YES; for (i = 0; i < [idConnections count]; i++) { pcp = (CONPAIR *)[idConnections elementAt:i]; if (strcmp(pcp->idObject->isa->name, "FREED(id)") && [pcp->idObject respondsTo:aSelector]) { pv = [pcp->idObject performv:aSelector :argFrame]; fSent = YES; } } if (!fSent) { [self doesNotRecognize:aSelector]; } inTee = NO; return (id)pv; } -(BOOL) respondsTo:(SEL)aSelector { int i; CONPAIR * pcp; if ([super respondsTo:aSelector]) { return YES; } for (i = 0; i < [idConnections count]; i++) { pcp = (CONPAIR *)[idConnections elementAt:i]; if (strcmp(pcp->idObject->isa->name, "FREED(id)") && [pcp->idObject respondsTo:aSelector]) { // don't worry about multiple positive responses return YES; } } return NO; } @end #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!express.ior.com!cnn.isc-br.com!nwfocus.wa.com!news.omnigroup.com!news From: toon@omnigroup.com (Greg Titus) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 8 Jan 1997 19:50:26 GMT Organization: Omni Development, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5b0tq2$407@gaea.titan.org> References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: jhereg.omnigroup.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) wrote: >ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) wrote: >>[impressively concise example using nearly all of Objective-C] Note that there was a typo in there... the "if(param=nil)" in -anInstanceMethodWith: should have been "if(param==nil)" as a C programmer would expect. Just don't want you to think Objective-C has some funky operator difference from plain old C. :) >You really seem to have covered the basics. I'd like to ask one >question though: occasionally I see code that uses expressions like > @"string" > @(..., ..., ...) > >What are these things? There's no mention of them in NeXT's >Objective-C book. This is something new with OPENSTEP/NeXTSTEP 4.0/WebObjects, it is a syntax for statically constructed objects from NeXT's Foundation framework. The Obj-C compiler only recognizes the string form (I think), but WebObjects' scripting language (which looks exactly like Obj-C otherwise) also recognizes the array form. // foo points to an automatically built NSString object with the content bar NSString *foo = @"bar"; // foo points to an automatically built NSArray object containing a couple // of NSStrings NSString *foo = @(@"bar", @"baz"); --------------------- Greg Titus Omni Development Inc. gtitus@omnigroup.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!serra.unipi.it!swidir.switch.ch!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!cmcl2.nyu.edu!news.nyu.edu!bononno From: bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:36:31 -0500 Organization: Techline Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial6-async01.dial.net.nyu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21432 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52206 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178100 comp.sys.mac.system:190646 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >In article , >bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: > >> Totally hidden? No Unix at all? I was hoping they'd keep that aspect for >> some reason. > > Personally I'd like to see it all removed, all that /bin, /usr stuff, >and left out of the standard install. Then you could purchase (or >download if you don't need support) a POSIX/Unix "support pack" that you >could then optionally install and use if you need to support Unix >utilities directly. That sounds like quite a kludge. Add in the command line support/shell later on? > > It would seem that this is the best of both worlds, you get to use Unix >if you want, and don't have it on the drive if you don't need it. Better >yet you beat NT in this regard, which removed POSIX support and didn't >have any of the standard shells or utilities anyway. I thought POSIX support was NT's big selling point? -- ------------------------------------------------------ Robert Bononno - bononno@acf2.nyu.edu - CIS:73670,1570 #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!jussieu.fr!fdn.fr!r2d2.fdn.org!laura!as From: as@asci.fdn.fr (Antoine Schmitt) Subject: Re: sound from NXRecordStream? Message-ID: <1997Jan9.025209.20257@asci.fdn.fr> Sender: as@asci.fdn.fr Reply-To: as@asci.fdn.fr (Antoine Schmitt) Organization: Antoine Schmitt - Paris, France. References: <5argmp$6lb@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 02:52:09 GMT Lines: 29 In article <5argmp$6lb@bignews.shef.ac.uk> mmalcolm crawford writes: > On 01/01/97, Raymond Lutz wrote: > > I want to play a sound freshly recorded by a NXRecordStream. [stuff about writing to a file - Deleted] > I guess you could copy it into a newly-created SNDSoundStruct, but that's > more tricky as you'll have to dynamically allocate the memory for it as you > go (and I suspect that you'll then run into problems with alocating enough > memory in the time you have before the next bufferfull of data arrives -- I > seem to recall I tried this, unsuccessfully). I did this once. To cope with the incoming flux of data, I would store the pointers to the incoming data in an array while I was recording. Then, when recording was over, I would allocate a new SNDSoundStruct, and bcopy all the pieces of data in it before deallocating them. Then the SNDStruct is playable. And you dont have to go through a file. But I'm not sure I was multithreaded. (Would this be a problem ?) I still have the code somewhere I guess. Antoine -- ________________________________________________________ Antoine Schmitt, ASCI - Paris, France #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!news.inconnect.com!slc-dial-65.inconnect.com!user From: mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 06:13:51 GMT Organization: Puppy Dog Software Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <32D446AC.23A2@running-start.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: slc-dial-65.inconnect.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10992 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3452 comp.sys.next.programmer:21434 In article <32D446AC.23A2@running-start.com>, eric@running-start.com wrote: >Steve Jobs said in the keynote address that the kernel would be Mach. >Probably Mach 3.0 if they can optomize it to run faster than dog-slow. Actually, Apple has said it will not have an official decision on the Kernel issue until the end of January. What Steve Jobs may say at a keynote can't be taken as gospel (of course, neither can anything anyone else says). Mark Munz #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.cs.utah.edu!news.cc.utah.edu!news.inconnect.com!slc-dial-65.inconnect.com!user From: mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 9 Jan 1997 06:24:28 GMT Organization: Puppy Dog Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: slc-dial-65.inconnect.com In article , jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: >In fact, I know of research projects where people used postscript to add >functionality to servers and device drivers, that had nothing to do with >graphics. It is a turing-complete programming language. You can write >a LISP interpreter in it if you like! I don't want yet another programming language .. I just want to be able to image. The fact that PS is intrepeted is also bothersome.. Never has interpreted been equated with high speed. The whole purpose of pre-emptive MT and other such goodies is give performance to the user. This is an area that I think BeOS seems to win in (their imaging is extremely fast). I would have actually liked to see something closer to how Be did it (taking advantage of the FPU in PPC chips -- and Pentinum also has FPU built-in).. it seems disappointing. While some of this is bothersome, I'm not ready to condemn DPS - but it does raise some questions about it. I hope Apple talks to someone BESIDES Adobe (they're opinions are SLIGHTLY BIASED) on this to make sure they're making the right decision about the imaging model. Mark Munz #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!cmcl2.nyu.edu!news.nyu.edu!bononno From: bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:35:03 -0500 Organization: Techline Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial6-async01.dial.net.nyu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21436 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52209 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178104 comp.sys.mac.system:190648 In article , ibhan@student.med.harvard.edu (Ishir Bhan) wrote: >In article , >bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: > >> Yeah, but like when? Already we're into mid-98 here. Assume Rhapsody is the >> NeXT-based OS for Macintosh. So this is 1.5 to 2 years away. That's a long, >> long time in this business. > >Rhapsody is supposed to be released at the same time as 7.8. That is, one >year from now. The developer release will preceed it by several months >(possibly as soon as 6). > That's not what I read. -- ------------------------------------------------------ Robert Bononno - bononno@acf2.nyu.edu - CIS:73670,1570 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!portc02.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: mikey3141@aol.com (Mikey3141) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 07:49:52 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 3 Message-ID: <19970109074800.CAA02596@ladder01.news.aol.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com on the behalf of us that have been trying to find books on obj c, we thank you, ian. I can't wait to have AppleStep to arrive #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!papergirl.highway1.com!news.ctcne.com!news From: "Steven W. Schuldt" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Basic question about OpenStep Date: 9 Jan 1997 03:40:08 GMT Organization: Bostonix Communications Lines: 20 Message-ID: <01bbfdb4$87f2d680$953c8018@winona> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: bostonix.ne.highway1.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 You need the OPENSTEP runtime installed on NT; just as you need a runtime to execute Java applets, just as you need a runtime for PowerBuilder apps. Everyone and his grandma wants Apple to give this thing away for free. For now, Apple seems so baffled at NeXT's embarassment of technological riches and harangued by it's frantic, wide-eyed userbase that it appears to not even know that this is an issue. - Steve Bob Estes wrote in article ... > Please excuse my ignorance, but it's amazing how many messages on OpenStep > I've read without getting the answer to this basic question: Is OpenStep > required to be present in order to run programs written using OpenStep?... > > Bob Estes > onscrn@aol.com > #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 08:15:58 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 121 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b29fu$a8b@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca8-04.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 09 12:15:58 AM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10993 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3454 comp.sys.next.programmer:21439 Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, > aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > > Multiple inheritance is not directly supported in Objective-C, a > >situation that many feel is an advantage, but some may miss. Multiple > >inheritance can be simulated using Objective-C's ability to forward > >unimplemented messages to another object which can provide the functionality > >that multiple inheritance might provide. I don't think most programmers feel > >that the lack of true multiple inheritance is a problem. > > This is an interesting way to implement multiple inheritance. I wouldn't characterize this as a multiple inheritance implementation :-) It's just a strategy that provides some of the functionality of multiple inheritance without most of the problems that true multiple inheritance implementations can cause. I'm not stating that forwarding is "better" - I was just trying to indicate an approach that can be used when multiple inheritance might be useful. I doubt that this approach is a technique commonly used by most Objective-C programmers. The need for multiple inheritance just doesn't seem to be that great. I guess > this approach must mean that 'multiple inheritance' in Objective C is > limited to only one base class and one 'proxy' class - is that correct? > Can this occur multiple times in the hierarchy? That is, if class A2 > derives from class A1 can A2 forward to B2 and A1 forward to B1? Allow me to use NeXT's documentation of NSObject's (the root class) forwardInvocation: method. They explain it much better than I can :-) -(void)forwardInvocation:(NSInvocation *)anInvocation Overridden by subclasses to forward messages to other objects. When an object is sent a message for which it has no corresponding method, the run-time system gives the receiver an opportunity to delegate the message to another receiver. It does this by creating an NSInvocation object representing the message and sending the receiver a forwardInvocation: message containing this NSInvocation as the argument. The receiver's forwardInvocation: method can then choose to forward the message to another object. (If that object can't respond to the message either, it too will be given a chance to forward it.) The forwardInvocation: message thus allows an object to establish relationships with other objects that will, for certain messages, act on its behalf. The forwarding object is, in a sense, able to inherit some of the characteristics of the object it forwards the message to. An implementation of the forwardInvocation: method has two tasks: To locate an object that can respond to the message encoded in anInvocation. This need not be the same object for all messages. To send the message to that object using anInvocation. anInvocation will hold the result, and the run-time system will extract and deliver this result to the original sender. In the simple case, in which an object forwards messages to just one destination (such as the hypothetical friend instance variable in the example below), a forwardInvocation: method could be as simple as this: - (void)forwardInvocation:(NSInvocation *)invocation { SEL selector = [invocation selector]; if ([friend respondsToSelector:selector]) [invocation invokeWithTarget:friend]; else [self doesNotRecognizeSelector:selector]; } The message that's forwarded must have a fixed number of arguments; variable numbers of arguments (in the style of printf()) are not supported. The return value of the message that's forwarded is returned to the original sender. All types of return values can be delivered to the sender: ids, structures, double-precision floating point numbers. Implementations of the forwardInvocation: method can do more than just forward messages. forwardInvocation: can, for example, be used to consolidate code that responds to a variety of different messages, thus avoiding the necessity of having to write a separate method for each selector. A forwardInvocation: method might also involve several other objects in the response to a given message, rather than forward it to just one. NSObject's implementation of forwardInvocation: simply invokes the doesNotRecognizeSelector: method; it doesn't forward any messages. Thus, if you choose not to implement forwardInvocation:, unrecognized messages will raise an exception. > What is the overhead runtime cost of this approach? Good question. The Objective-C run-time does a lot of caching of method implementations so that the first time a message is sent, the overhead is highest, but subsequent messages hit the cache and are probably quite speedy. However, there is no free lunch. Objective-C message dispatches aren't as fast as C function calls, but for interactive applications where user events drive an app, the user is so much slower than the Objective-C run-time that performance isn't a problem. If certain code segments are performance-critical, Objective-C's run-time can provide a function pointer for the implementation of a method so performance can be as good as a C function call, but this will eliminate the possibility of polymorphism. This approach might be used in a loop where a message is sent to the same object repeatedly so that polymorphism isn't an issue. But if performance is still a problem, C or C++ can be substituted for Objective-C. > Curious minds want to know, Should I have misled, please correct me. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!134.222.90.2!EU.net!Belgium.EU.net!news.bel.alcatel.be!usenet From: suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 09:04:12 GMT Organization: Alcatel/Bell Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b2cac$s0a@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> References: <5b0tq2$407@gaea.titan.org> Reply-To: suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.204.93.85 Greg Titus writes > // foo points to an automatically built NSArray object containing a couple > // of NSStrings > NSString *foo = @(@"bar", @"baz"); > Shouldn't this read NSString *foo = @("bar", "baz"); ?? Yours, ------------------------ Ralf.Suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!ddfservb.technet.net!ok@technet.net From: Constantin Szallies Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 10:03:00 GMT Organization: Tech Net GmbH Lines: 59 Message-ID: <5b2fok$det2@ddfservb.technet.net> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.77.99.122 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10994 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3456 comp.sys.next.programmer:21441 Michael D. Rossetti wrote: >In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, >aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: >> Multiple inheritance is not directly supported in Objective-C, a >>situation that many feel is an advantage, but some may miss. Multiple >>inheritance can be simulated using Objective-C's ability to forward >>unimplemented messages to another object which can provide the functionality >>that multiple inheritance might provide. I don't think most programmers feel >>that the lack of true multiple inheritance is a problem. > >[Lots of great information in this thread! Lovin' it!] > >This is an interesting way to implement multiple inheritance. I guess >this approach must mean that 'multiple inheritance' in Objective C is >limited to only one base class and one 'proxy' class - is that correct? > >Can this occur multiple times in the hierarchy? That is, if class A2 >derives from class A1 can A2 forward to B2 and A1 forward to B1? > >What is the overhead runtime cost of this approach? Objective-C does have multiple inheritance!! Multi interface inheritance but only single implementation inheritance. The same concept as in Java, if you know this language. And NO multiple inheritance can't be simulated by objective C's abibliy to forward messages. These forwarding is the same as delegation, you just don't have to write code like: public void someMessage() { delegate.someMessage(); } With forwarding, you just have to implement one method that forwards all method invocations that can't be handled by the receiver to the delegate. The overhead is one additional method invocation and one slot more in the call stack. But this doesn't change the type of the receiver!! Multiple inheritance in Objective-C looks like this (example from the Foundation Kit, a framework with basic datastructures for OPENSTEP applications): @interface NSArray:NSObject This means NSArray inhertits from NSObject (implementaion) and from NSCopying and NSMutableCopying (iterface only). NSCopying and NSMutableCopying are so called protocols which define a set of method signatures. NSArray must implement all methods in these protocols. You can check if some Object is of type NSCopying at runtime by calling [someObject conformsTo:@protocol(NSCopying)] -- Constantin Szallies, Energotec GmbH szallies@energotec.de 49211-9144018 #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!EU.net!sun4nl!icgned!news From: tom@icgned.nl (Tom Hageman) Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ganymedes Message-ID: Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: IC Group X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82 [trh1]) References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> <5b0rno$48e@news.xmission.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:35:49 GMT Lines: 60 don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote: >stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) wrote: >> [...] I'd like to ask one >> question though: occasionally I see code that uses expressions like >> >> @"string" >> @(..., ..., ...) >> >> What are these things? There's no mention of them in NeXT's >> Objective-C book. > >This is syntactic sugar--almost a macro. The first one creates >an NSString object with the specified value and the second creates >an NSArray populated with the comma delimited list of objects >between the parenthesis. Pretty simple stuff and a recent addition >to the compiler as of the creation of the NeXT FoundationKit. Really? (No question about the NSString construct, but this is the first I heard of the NSArray one.) When I tried to compile the following test code: --- @array.m --- #if (NS_TARGET_MAJOR <= 3) #import #import #else #import #endif void test() { id array = @(@"aap", @"noot", @"mies"); // test @(..., ...) } --- I got the following errors: cc -c @array.m @array.m: In function `test': @array.m:10: invalid identifier `@' @array.m:10: warning: initialization makes pointer from integer without a cast Using both the NS3.3 and OS/Mach 4.1 compiler. Maybe it does work with the OS/NT or the latest gcc compiler, I haven't checked. It is possible to get about the same effect by defining a macro like: #define @(objects...) [NSArray arrayWithObjects:objects, nil] but this would (a) use a gcc-specific preprocessor feature, and (b) it does not yield an array constant like @"string" yields a string constant. In the same vein: should @123 or @45.678 yield NSNumbers? :-) -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Ed is the standard text editor" __/ _/_/ -- Unix Programmer's Manual #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 38 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan9.070842.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b29fu$a8b@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> X-Trace: 852811726/8475 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:08:42 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10995 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3457 comp.sys.next.programmer:21443 In article <5b29fu$a8b@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) writes: > Michael D. Rossetti wrote: >> In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, >> aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: >> > Multiple inheritance is not directly supported in Objective-C, a >> >situation that many feel is an advantage, but some may miss. Multiple >> >inheritance can be simulated using Objective-C's ability to forward >> >unimplemented messages to another object which can provide the > functionality >> >that multiple inheritance might provide. I don't think most programmers > feel >> >that the lack of true multiple inheritance is a problem. >> >> This is an interesting way to implement multiple inheritance. > > I wouldn't characterize this as a multiple inheritance implementation :-) > It's just a strategy that provides some of the functionality of multiple > inheritance without most of the problems that true multiple inheritance > implementations can cause. I'm not stating that forwarding is "better" - I > was just trying to indicate an approach that can be used when multiple > inheritance might be useful. > > I doubt that this approach is a technique commonly used by most > Objective-C programmers. The need for multiple inheritance just doesn't seem > to be that great. The mechanism described seems perfectly adequate to handle "mixins", which some would say is the most useful application of multiple inheritance. Is there some other technique for "mixins" used by the class of "most Objective-C programmers", or do they just not need mixins for most of their work ? And for bonus points: Did the term "mixins" really derive from Steve's Ice Cream in Davis Square, Sommerville, Massachusetts, USA ? Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:25:05 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 21 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) writes: > I'd like to ask one > question though: occasionally I see code that uses expressions like > > @"string" > @(..., ..., ...) > > What are these things? There's no mention of them in NeXT's > Objective-C book. They're an extension thats prominent in NeXTStep4/OpenStep (I think they existed before but were never used). They're a shortcut to create a string object, equivalent to [NSString stringWithCString:"string"]; They're automatically put into the releasepool, so you'd need to retain such a string if you needed to keep a copy. $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!neon.mlink.net!NewsWatcher!user From: spamwall@zercom.net (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 9 Jan 1997 13:49:43 GMT Organization: Groupimage, inc. Lines: 74 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.191.6.170 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21445 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52243 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178145 comp.sys.mac.system:190692 In article , bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: > In article , Joseph > Strout wrote: > > > >OTOH, I just saw that BeOS is available for off-the-shelf PowerMacs now, > >and it already runs MacOS apps! And it should be shipping (non-beta) > >soon. Sounds like a good deal to me! > > It does? I thought it didn't. BeOS will run my Mac applications? That's a > possibility I had sort of forgotten about. And it will run on my 8500? Be > has been hard at work I see. I have BeOS on my PowerMac at this instant. BeOS doesn't support Mac applications, nor does it (currently) support the Mac file system. The BeOS for PowerMac requires Mac OS to boot. When in the Finder, you double-click on "BeOS Launcher", which forces a shutdown of your Mac and boots up BeOS. The Mac toolbox, in all respect, is considered "off". For BeOS to be running Mac apps, you require a software called "Virtual Mac" which requires the presence of your PowerMac ROMs (ie, does not work on BeBox). Following is an excerp of the press release: Be Operating System (BeOS) Summary of MacOS System 7.x Compatibility Features DUAL BOOT CAPABILITIES Includes the ability to run the BeOS and MacOS on a single PowerPC system. One OS is active at any one time. Supports loading systems on separate hard disks, or on separate partitions of a single disk. Available: Now Introduced with the BeOS development kit last month. Will be a feature of the Q1 public release. DATA COMPATIBILITY Includes the ability to access MacOS formatted volumes directly from within the BeOS, and ability to read System 7.x files and various data formats. Available: In Q1 Release NETWORK COMPATIBILITY Internet TCP/IP-based service compatibility and interchange with Mac and Windows systems, and AppleTalk capabilities with Mac-based systems. Available: Now Internet capabilities to be enhanced in the Q1 release. Be is studying AppleTalk network compatibility, availability to be announced. VIRTUALMAC CAPABILITIES Includes the ability to run existing System 7.x applications within the BeOS environment. Available: Demonstrated Availability to be announced later in Q1 ================================================================= Please reply using the following address, rather than the "reply-to" address (my mail box is being filled with junk mail). ================================================================= Martin-Gilles Lavoie | Opinions expressed herein are just that. mouser@zercom.net | "No! Do, or do not. There is no try." Globimage, inc. | --Yoda on error handling #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news From: stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Wed, 08 Jan 1997 22:40:35 -0800 Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> <5b0rno$48e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: line059.nwm.mindlink.net don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote: >stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) wrote: >> [what do the following expressions mean?] >> @"string" >> @(..., ..., ...) > >This is syntactic sugar--almost a macro. The first one creates >an NSString object with the specified value and the second creates >an NSArray populated with the comma delimited list of objects >between the parenthesis. Pretty simple stuff and a recent addition >to the compiler as of the creation of the NeXT FoundationKit. Thanks to everyone who replied. Have any other features been added recently to the language? Is there an official specification? My copy of "Object-Oriented Programming and the Objective C Language", produced by NeXT and published by Addison-Wesley, is rather old (1993). --------------------------------------- Stephen Ma #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: sound from NXRecordStream? Date: 9 Jan 1997 14:13:17 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5b2udt$kce@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5argmp$6lb@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <1997Jan9.025209.20257@asci.fdn.fr> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <1997Jan9.025209.20257@asci.fdn.fr> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 On 01/08/97, Antoine Schmitt wrote: > I did this once. To cope with the incoming flux of data, I would store the > pointers to the incoming data in an array while I was recording. Then, > when recording was over, I would allocate a new SNDSoundStruct, and bcopy > all the pieces of data in it before deallocating them. Then the SNDStruct > is playable. And you dont have to go through a file. > But I'm not sure I was multithreaded. (Would this be a problem ?) > I'm not sure if threading would be a problem -- your solution sounds like a useful alternative to mine, thanks. I'd only be worried about allocating enough space to hold all the pointers to begin with, but this is a minor consideration. Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 13:30:47 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 52 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article geoff.clapp@apple.com (Geoffrey Clapp) writes: > In article , ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) > wrote: > > >OK... I've never actually USED MacApp, but as I understand it, it's very > >simlar _in_principle_ to the AppKit. > > The AppKit and OpenStep frameworks are very similar to MacApp, PowerPlant, > MFC, TCL, etc. etc. The question is where do we go and how do we get > there.MetroWerks has already committed to PowerPlant for Rhapsody, but > what does that really mean in terms of code portability, etc? Who > knows....there are a ton of issues to still work out. Aggreed. However the danger is that we end up with two or more frameworks on NeXTStep. NeXTStep's strenght has been it's consistancy, and interoperability. A hasty port of several competing frameworks might keep Mac develpers happy in the short term, but ultimatly we need to get everyone onto OpenStep. NeXT recently did a major overhaul of the AppKit moving from NeXTStep to OpenStep. This was(is) painfull for developers in the short term, but more beneficial in the long term, as everyone ends up using the same, new improved kit. I'd like to see something like that to convert MacApp apps to appkit apps (or more likly a first attempt, which the programmer then patches up), rather than having two frameworks co-existing. > >A port of MacApp threfore DOESN'T make sense, because the AppKit provides > >the same basic functionality, but in a more complete, and standard way - >I think what you are seeing is > that there might be a convergence opporunity. I am amazed how many people > think this has to be an all or none....it's a "merger" right? ;-> Yep... And the Dev environments have to merge too. A port of MacApp doesn't make sense because that wouldn't merge the enviropnments - it just allows both camps to live on the same hardware. OpenStep == Appkit. Thats a fact. What can be done is to take features from MacApp which are more advanced (you say it's more broad in its scope), and make new Kits which provide the functionality that MacApp (or powerplant) users think is missing. eg - I suspect that adding a generic document class would be a good thing. $an #################################################################### Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 08:28:26 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b2fok$det2@ddfservb.technet.net> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 22 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port5.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10996 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3458 comp.sys.next.programmer:21449 In article <5b2fok$det2@ddfservb.technet.net>, Constantin Szallies wrote: > Objective-C does have multiple inheritance!! Multi interface inheritance but only > single implementation inheritance. The same concept as in Java, if you know this > language. Interface inheritance hardly really counts, as I understand it, since the "descendent" cannot inherit behavior. Seems more like a template, in that it allows clients to access methods without knowing the class (other than that it inherits certain interfaces). Better than nothing but the need to implement all methods in the inherited protocols is rather tedious. Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software #################################################################### Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 09:08:22 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 57 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port5.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10997 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3459 comp.sys.next.programmer:21450 In article <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > A concrete example is the MiscKit's MiscTee object. What it > does is act like a tee (as in plumbing)--send a message into > it and it will turn around and pass the message on to every > object on its "output", but only that that object actually > responds to the message. The Tee itself doesn't respond to > any of these messages. Instead, when you send it a message, > that message is trapped by the -forward: method, which then > loops through all the delegates and passes the message on to > each of the ones that can handle it. Since the MiscTee can > effectively respond to any message that is handled by any of > the objects that is connected to it, we have overridden the > -respondsTo: method as well. As you add and remove objects > to the Tee's list of "delegates", the set of messages it > responds to will appear to change! > ... > Anyway, since it is a reasonably good example of how the > forwarding mechanism works, I'll append the source to this > message. (Don't worry-it is pretty short, considering > what it does.) I don't think you'll find any objects in > C++ that implement this sort of functionality so cleanly > and in such a generic way. :-) This is a great feature. I made a recreational attempt to build this functionality on top of non-objective language years before objective languages were available for the Mac ('86 or '87). Did not fit in with the business plan, though. Before we had multiple inheritance we mimicked in an analogous way by attaching behaviors (and other objects) rather than mixing them in, we and still try to mimick abstract delegation with (for example, in MacApp 3) dependency spaces. But the point I wish to raise is that for many programmers (including myself) choice of language is not as important as programming habits and code design. My mental model includes ideal implementations of all these features, and my programming habits act as a sort of "precompiler" into whatever language I am using. In this case, wouldn't it be better if the language I used matched my mental model exactly? Perhaps, but depends on the costs (they work both ways). Objective C may require of a project fewer lines of code and no days housekeeping memory, but then the code object is larger and slower, which is a significant concern in our case. Now if I were starting a new project, especially if I was managing inexperienced programmers, I would probably choose Objective C. But there is no weightier reality in this business than legacy code (that I can think of). Legacy code is capital and even if it has a short life cycle you cannot just throw it away. Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!neon.mlink.net!NewsWatcher!user From: spamwall@zercom.net (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 14:00:24 GMT Organization: Groupimage, inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.191.6.170 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10998 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3460 comp.sys.next.programmer:21451 In article , geoff.clapp@apple.com (Geoffrey Clapp) wrote: > In article <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner>, kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry > Kilgallen) wrote: > > >In article <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" > writes: > > > >> If they don't use the OpenStep API's, why would they bother buying > >> NeXT? > > > >Memory protection, an OS kernel, scheduling, ... > > > > Apple has made no official announcement on the kernel technology to be > used in the new OS (as of yesterday's keynote, anyway, the way things are > moving around here, it might be announced! ;->) I've read everything Apple had to say since December 20th. According to "Plan A" (phun), Apple will be using a "modern kernel which supports SMP". As far as I know, the current OpenStep/Mach isn't SMP, but NuMach (Apple's kernel developed for Copland and Gershwin) does support it. Will they just modify NeXT's, or use Apple's? This wasn't specified. Apple has also said that "the next generation OS will use an API based upon that of the current OpenStep, with minor modifications to include Apple technology where it makes sense". Further down: "Apple will move more towards a PostScript model [...] and will incorporate technologies from QuickDraw GX and ColorSync to add extra value". This means that DPS is going to be the driving graphics, but GX functions might be used on top on DPS in order to support features otherwise not available (trasparency?). Apple also mentioned that the initial release (DR-1) will use most of the current OpenStep look and feel, with minor modifications, but will gradually (until Golden Master) be transposed to the Mac UI, while keeping the best of both UIs. ================================================================= Please reply using the following address, rather than the "reply-to" address (my mail box is being filled with junk mail). ================================================================= Martin-Gilles Lavoie | Opinions expressed herein are just that. mouser@zercom.net | "No! Do, or do not. There is no try." Globimage, inc. | --Yoda on error handling #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!usenet From: jdevlin@umich.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Encryption Date: 9 Jan 1997 16:54:09 GMT Organization: University of Michigan Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5b37rh$ss5@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 141.211.88.245 X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52276 comp.sys.next.programmer:21452 NEXT promised encryption with NEXTSTEP 3.0, but had to relent due to federal export restrictions. Nonetheless, they shipped NS 3.x with a nice interface for encrypted email, and you can load a publicly available PGP bundle which dynamically binds with that interface. (You've got to love an OS that can dynamically load bundles -- EVERY app on the new Apple OS should have a published interface for them ...) Moreover, NEXT owns a patent on Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE) - a cryptosystem which, according to reported hints from Steve Jobs, the NSA regards as more secure than PGP. (The NSA was rumored to be one of NEXT's larger customers ...) SUGGESTION: Apple should include a documented interface for encryption in both Mail.app and WorkspaceManager, and allow customers to load their favorite cryptographic engine as a bundle. Moreover, Apple should follow MIT's example and make a FEE bundle available on their website to anyone in the United States and make the Objective-C implementation of the algorithm available without restriction as an ascii file. Between FEE and PGP, virtually everyone would have access to military grade encryption with a consistent and well thought out GUI. -- John Devlin Department of Philosophy The University of Michigan Ann Arbor, MI 48109 - 1003 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 16:58:24 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 79 Message-ID: <5b383g$esi@news.xmission.com> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b2fok$det2@ddfservb.technet.net> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:10999 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3462 comp.sys.next.programmer:21453 Constantin Szallies wrote: > And NO multiple inheritance can't be simulated by objective C's > abibliy to forward messages. These forwarding is the same as > delegation, you just don't have to write code like: Actually I don't feel that is quite correct--and this is only a matter of opinion and is therefore debatable. But let me explain what I mean... While creative use of the forwarding mechanism is not true multiple implementation inheritance, it *does* allow implementations to be shared amongst several objects (via delegation), and that is a very close approximation of multiple implementation inheritance. So I guess that you could say this isn't an implementation of MI, but rather an approximation to it that will cover the times when you would want to use MI, making the lack of MI in Objective C effectively a non-issue. Note that we are talking about a simulation--not a fullblown implementation. If, in Objective-C, you were to ever run into a situation that required multiple inheritance of implementations, this technique is the path many programmers would take to approach a solution. The fact still remains that (a) a lot of these multiple inheritance issues are moot in Objective-C because its dynamism removes the need to use multiple inheritance in most if not all cases, and (b) protocols--multiple inheritance of interfaces--cover nearly all of the remaining cases. And, IMHO, (c) a better OO design gets rid of the rest. I've done a lot of Objective C programming and have never needed to use the -forward: feature to simulate multiple inheritance. I know it can be done, because I understand the language and its implications and have used the discussed mechanisms for other things, but I've never used it in this way. So IMHO "good" designs, meaning Objective-C friendly designs I guess, should cover any remaining cases. (I do not think that using an "Objective-C friendly design" when programming Objective-C is entirely a bad thing. While you don't want your designs to be implementation independent, the tool you use _will_ influence the way you approach your design _always_ whether you admit it or not. [Take the choice of choosing an OO vs. procedural language--right there your design methodology changes...and there are subtle effects for any language you pick within those classes.] And, you might as well use your chosen tool to the best of its capacity. Luckily, Objective-C allows for much simpler designs than, for example, C++.) At any rate, the blessing of dynamic OO is enough that no one should mind the fact that it also lifts the curse of multiple inheritance at the same time. :-) And I think the above answers this question: Larry Kilgallen wrote: > The mechanism described seems perfectly adequate to > handle "mixins", which some would say is the most useful > application of multiple inheritance. Is there some other > technique for "mixins" used by the class of "most > Objective-C programmers", or do they just not need mixins > for most of their work ? I've never needed it, but I'd use this mechanism if I did. I can't say that I'm "most Objective-C programmers", but from what I've seen I think there's a lot of us that would take this approach as well...if we ever needed it. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 9 Jan 1997 17:22:50 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21454 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52290 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178199 comp.sys.mac.system:190730 On 01/09/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > I personally don't need Unix, and thus don't want all those paths all > over the place. I can also say that I'm a minority in this regard though, > at least in the newsgroups. > So I guess you wouldn't want /System/Control Panel etc either...? That's basically what most of this stuff is. There are also a number of features in the current implementation of NEXTSTEP which explicitly allow you to hide some files (the most basic one bing the "Unix Expert" flag in Preferences, which if not selected hides exactly all those /bin, /etc folders you don't want to see. I agree, this is the way it should be, for most users. A small group of users, however, will find those directories and their contents very useful -- mainly developers and some system administrators (techies if you want). Whilst a minority, IMHO AppLE cannot afford to make these people's lives more difficult just for the sake of it... Applications have to be ported to the new OS; people will have to network the new machines and connect them to the Internet. Anything that can make these tasks easier is a win for Apple, and, as far as I can tell, keeping Unix there will do just that. Unless you have any alternative suggestions? Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 9 Jan 1997 17:28:54 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21455 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52294 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178203 comp.sys.mac.system:190732 On 01/09/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > Sure, why not? You can add a command line to the Mac now if you want > to, 3rd party (even Unix-like shells) and this doesn't seem to be a > problem. For the _vast_ majority of Mac users the presence of Unix simply > wastes disk space because they're never going to use it. Why install all > that code for something that only 10% or less of the market is going to > use? > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is stuff which is used by the OS itself... I am having difficulty understanding your prejudice here -- what all this stuff represents is effectively what I (assume) MacOS has in its /System folder, it's just spread around a bit more (perhaps something for AppLE to address, though doing so might break a lot of stuff), and with a more obscure nomenclature. Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!citizen From: TimT@asiatlanta.com (Tim Triemstra) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Using NT libs with OpenStep NT? Date: Thu, 09 Jan 97 17:37:26 GMT Organization: Alpha Star International Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5b3am6$l6v@client2.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.240.207.1 X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52314 comp.sys.next.programmer:21456 I am looking to purchase OpenStep for NT because an development library I use under NS 3.3 has stopped supporting NeXT in the present version. I was curious, could I expect to be able to use the NT libraries provided by this vendor with the rest of the OpenStep project? This is a database library and I'd like to be able to keep using all my .nib files and ObjectiveC code along with the NT binrary .lib files to access the database. Any information on plausibility and potential pitfalls would be helpful. I of course realize that the clients will have to be using NT OpenStep as well. Tim Triemstra ....... TimT@ASIAtlanta.com Alpha Star International, Atlanta GA USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!sn.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Tom Hageman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Basic question about OpenStep Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 00:00:19 +0100 Organization: Warty Wolfs Lines: 23 Message-ID: <9701082300.AA04026@basil.icce.rug.nl> Reply-To: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-User: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-Path: obelix.icce.rug.nl!basil.icce.rug.nl!next.mailer X-Authentication-Warning: obelix.icce.rug.nl: uubasil set sender to basil.icce.rug.nl!tom using -f Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.icce.rug.nl/pub/tom/Tom_Hageman@basil.icce.rug.nl.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) In article , you wrote: > Please excuse my ignorance, but it's amazing how many messages on OpenStep > I've read without getting the answer to this basic question: Is OpenStep > required to be present in order to run programs written using OpenStep? My > assumption had always been yes, but I've read so many times that "if you > write an OpenStep program it automatically will run on NT etc." I'm > confused. So, can anyone with a machine running "stock" NT (no OpenStep > addition of any kind) fire up a program written using OpenStep (compiled > for the particular type of machine the user has) and run it? Your assumption is correct. You need the OPENSTEP/NT runtime in order to run OPENSTEP/NT apps. (the runtime basically consist of a bunch of shared libraries, plus some server programs like windowserver). --- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 9 Jan 1997 19:07:44 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 128 Message-ID: <5b3fm0$esi@news.xmission.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21458 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52324 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178244 comp.sys.mac.system:190773 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu>, mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) wrote: > > > No. This is stupid. It means that standard applications cannot assume the > > presence of useful unix style utilities. Users might not want to know > > about '/bin', but they do not want a program or internal script to die on > > account of its absence. > > Standard applications can current assume that Unix is not installed. I > run about 100 applications on my Macs, and not a single one of them calls > anything remotely like Unix. Sure having the utilities allows a lazy > programmer to do less work, but I don't see this as a goal. There are a lot of NEXTSTEP applications that use the shell and UNIX commands to do a lot of things. I don't think it is wise to throw all that out. In fact, I wouldn't want to lose all those apps. And if half the apps you buy, in their installation, insist that you install an "optional" UNIX shell package, the user might as well just have it installed automatically from the beginning so they don't have to be bothered with that extra detail. Now, most people won't need to access the commands directly, BUT if many of their apps do, then they need to be there. The answer is simple, and NEXTSTEP already has it. From the GUI, by default, the /bin, /usr, .* files, /etc, plus several other files in the filesystem are hidden and do not appear in the GUI. This is system wide--open/save panels, WorkSpace, etc. You can even add a file called ".hidden" to a directory to tell the system which files should be hidden by default. The user who wants to see the files goes into the Preferences.app (analogous to a control panel) and turns on the "UNIX Expert" checkbox. So the GUI can hide the complexity from those who don't need to see it and show it to those who want it. It seems like that is adequate to solve the problem. [Aside: I've known NeXT slab owners who I've helped with their systems. When I turn on UNIX Expert mode, they are surprised--"I didn't know all that was there!" These are people who have owned NeXT machines for _years_ and never knew. Their daily usage of the system probably invoked many of those commands and made use of much of that hidden stuff--the swapfile is an obvious example--but they never saw it, or even cared. And they didn't need to know it to get their work done. That's an effective GUI--it did what it is supposed to do with no hassles for the user.] OK, so there's still the "lazy programmer" argument. Well, my counter to this is the fact that a large part of the NeXT environment--not just third party apps--uses the underlying UNIX commands in /bin and elsewhere. If you got rid of them, you'd suddenly have a hell of a lot more work to do to create Rhapsody. I don't think Apple wants to do that. Additionally, why shouldn't a programmer use these commands? Why re-invent the wheel for every app? By sharing resources that are already available as much as possible, you enhance the stability and robustness of the entire system. Which is easier to debug: fifteen routines to do a file copy in fifteen different apps or a single "cp" program on the system? Plus, in the case of "cp", we already know it works. If we rely upon it, that is one less bug we have to worry about! We're building off the stability that already exists. Software is becoming very complex and this (and other forms of OOP) is the one of the reasonable ways we currently have to manage that complexity. Moreover, if the system "cp" program _is_ broken and Apple is too slow to fix it, you can grab source off the net (or a prebuilt package someone else may have already built) and replace that portion of the system with a version that works. Without having to wait. NeXT users have done this with sendmail, ftpd, httpd, and many other portions of the system for a long time and it works. And, with NeXT's Installer.app, it is easy to create, distribute, and install these minor upgrades via the GUI without *ever* having to deal with UNIX directly! It is no different than installing a vendor patch, and the ease of creating packages helps the situation because NeXTophiles create these updates left and right--so that most of us can have modern systems without having to deal with UNIX. But without the underlying tar and compress commands, even the Installer would break... My point is that those commands need to be there for apps to run well. The user may never touch them directly, but that's OK. They can obtain the benefits of these programs without ever knowing that they are using them because the GUI hides the underlying complexity. I think that's a win-win reason for keeping it in there. As food for thought, here are some other interesting features in the environment that I really like, which are direct results from the UNIX commands: In Edit.app, the editor that comes free with NEXTSTEP, the expert mode, if turned on, gives you the option to pipe any text selection through a UNIX command of your choice. (Select the text with the mouse, type Command-|, type the UNIX command into the text field, hit return, and voila!) This is great because it makes the editor that much more extensible. I find that piping logs through grep or grep -v allows me to analyze them very rapidly and is highly useful. Programmers would have all sorts of use for this feature, too. The MiscKit contains an object called the MiscShell that makes it trivial to connect an arbitrary UNIX command or shell script up to the NEXTSTEP GUI--all from InterfaceBuilder.app, without writing code. Tell me, when was the last time you saw someone use drag and drop to create a flat file news reader _without_ _writing_ _any_ _code_? This is way cool, but the capability relies heavily upon the underlying UNIX inside of NEXTSTEP. I'm sure that I could keep spouting off examples, but you get the idea. Part of the stability and richness of the NeXT environment are directly attributable to the good sense NeXT had in building on top of something as powerful as UNIX. While IMHO UNIX is unfriendly to novices and it is good to hide it from them via a good GUI, it is also IMHO that it would be dumb to throw out that power. And isn't this what OOP is all about? Code reuse? Is it really lazy to reuse existing code? Or is it just a wise application of expensive and limited programmer hours, making an efficient use of that time? -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.tue.nl!usenet From: tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 09 Jan 1997 20:59:58 +0100 Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology Lines: 17 Sender: tiggr@tom.ics.ele.tue.nl Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tom.ics.ele.tue.nl In-reply-to: ians@cam-ani.co.uk's message of Thu, 9 Jan 1997 12:25:05 GMT X-Newsreader: (ding) Gnus v0.99.18 In article ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) writes: > @"string" They're a shortcut to create a string object, equivalent to [NSString stringWithCString:"string"]; No they are not. They're automatically put into the releasepool, so you'd need to retain such a string if you needed to keep a copy. @"String objects" are part of the executable. If you want to keep them, retain them; after retaining, release them, but do not retain them to prevent them from being autoreleased, since they aren't (autoreleased, that is). Not that an extra retain matters, since they can not leak anyway (apart from the retainment administration). --Tiggr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 9 Jan 1997 21:04:38 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b3mh6$ijp$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: <5b2cac$s0a@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article <5b2cac$s0a@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be> suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) writes: > Greg Titus writes > > // foo points to an automatically built NSArray object containing a couple > > // of NSStrings > > NSString *foo = @(@"bar", @"baz"); > > > Shouldn't this read > NSString *foo = @("bar", "baz"); The @() syntax is part of WebScript, not Objective-C. In WebScript, it creates "constant" NSArrays. @"" creates constant NSStrings in both WebScript and Objective-C. In Objective-C, the objects are created by the compiler as instances of NXConstantString class (though I would assume this to be implementation-dependent.) To see for yourself, try using the @"" syntax in a source file that does not include the NSString header file. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!pacbell.com!ames!purdue!oitnews.harvard.edu!infobhan.med.harvard.edu!user From: ibhan@student.med.harvard.edu (Ishir Bhan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:09:50 -0500 Organization: Harvard Medical School Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: infobhan.med.harvard.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21461 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52369 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178316 comp.sys.mac.system:190824 In article , bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: > That's not what I read. Well, read more carefully, then. http://www.macos.apple.com -- Ishir Bhan Harvard Medical School '00 ibhan@student.med.harvard.edu http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~ibhan #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!neon.mlink.net!NewsWatcher!user From: spamwall@zercom.net (Martin-Gilles Lavoie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 21:24:42 GMT Organization: Groupimage, inc. Lines: 113 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1qed$nlm@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.191.6.170 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11001 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3473 comp.sys.next.programmer:21462 In article <5b1qed$nlm@nntp1.apple.com>, Michael D. Rossetti wrote: [...] > I'd like to point out that there is no complete framework for Mac OS 8 > yet though many in this discussion have talked like OpenStep _is_ that > framework. This will come when OpenStep has been modified to provide > some form of Macintosh User Experience. Perhaps MacApp can contribute in > this way, too. Interestingly, I am working on a new framework which was intended to be used as a bridge for Mac OS 7.x and (R.I.P.) Copland (using it's HIObject-based classes), to replace what we're currently using in-house (another home-brewed framework). This framework's core classes strangelly ressembles OpenStep's (as per the drafts of 94, as found on www.next.com), and I'm thingking of making this framework a cross-platform (ie, Mac OS 7.x/Rhapsody) framework. I'm still examining the OpenStep code for feasability (OpenStep is new to me, as for many Mac programmer). See for yourself: (c) copyright 1996-1997 Martin-Gilles Lavoie All rights reserved CKernel CLinkedList CBinary CClassList CMemory CKernelEvent CKernelObject CMenu COSAObject CCAFEStream CCAFEWindow CDynamicObjectMember CDynamicObject CKernelTask CApplication CEventScheduler CGarbageCollector CGraphicsEngine CIdleTask CAgent CIdleFunction CIODevice CIOTextStream CFile CDynamicObjectsFile CKeyboard CSerial CModem CSpeachIO CMouse CNetwork CSCSI CKODE CKODEVariable CWindowThing CWindowCaptionThing CWindowButtonThing CWindowPopMenuThing CWindowPushButtonThing CWindowCheckButtonThing CWindowRadioButtonThing CWindowPictButtonThing CWindowEditFieldThing CWindowLabelThing CWindowListThing CWindowTextThing CWindowLinesThing CWindowBezierThing CWindowViewThing CWindowClusterThing CToolBox CUndoRedoList CString CNumber CTokenList CQueuedList The interesting thing in this framework is that OS 7 events are mapped to CKernelEvent objects. Therefore, mapping OpenStep messages in there would be trivial. Also, since both Rhapsody and the "blue box" will support AppleEvents, it doesn't break the 'COSAObject' class hierarchy. The above framework is about 20% functional (core stuff is in, and some of the CWindowThings are all set...details available on request), and is currently being compiled with Copland interfaces (something I'll have to change, I guess). This framework handles garbage collection, runtime code interpretation (CKODE= Kernel Object Developer Extention), instantiation by name and by type, *fast* in-window UI (910 items drawn in less than 1.5 secs on Quadra 840AV--power macs where not timed yet as we use that Quadra for performance bottom-line). The CKernel object is the main loop container, and administrator of all registered classes, objects and tasks (which makes somewhat of a miss-namer). If anyone wants to give his/her insights, I'd welcome them. ================================================================= Please reply using the following address, rather than the "reply-to" address (my mail box is being filled with junk mail). ================================================================= Martin-Gilles Lavoie | Opinions expressed herein are just that. mouser@zercom.net | "No! Do, or do not. There is no try." Globimage, inc. | --Yoda on error handling #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rickg@sunsoft.eng.sun.com (Richard Goldstein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 09 Jan 1997 13:10:53 -0800 Organization: SunSoft, Inc. Lines: 50 Sender: rickg@upuaut Message-ID: References: Reply-To: rickg@eng.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: upuaut.eng.sun.com In-reply-to: mmunz@inconnect.com's message of 9 Jan 1997 06:24:28 GMT X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 From: mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 9 Jan 1997 06:24:28 GMT Organization: Puppy Dog Software >In fact, I know of research projects where people used postscript to add >functionality to servers and device drivers, that had nothing to do with >graphics. It is a turing-complete programming language. You can write >a LISP interpreter in it if you like! I don't want yet another programming language .. I just want to be able to image. The fact that PS is intrepeted is also bothersome.. Never has interpreted been equated with high speed. The whole purpose of pre-emptive These concerns are a good part of what I try to address in my somewhat expirimental Modello class library for DPS/X, which in part implements the PS types on the client side in a commonly used language (in this case a subset of C++), such that you can do more on the client side, in a compiled language environment, and only download the PS commands that really need to be done there. It includes a complete language binding for PS which gets converted directly to binary object sequences for faster execution. This works fine for Solaris OpenStep, which uses DPS/X. Anyone interested, there is a white paper discussing this, plus the issues with pswrap, etc. in the release available in ftp.x.org:/contrib/devel_tools/DPS/ rick -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Richard M. Goldstein richard.goldstein@Eng.Sun.COM 64-bit Linkers, Libs & Executables SunSoft, Inc. "Without time we pick up all the streams, and find the leaves that drift out inbetween..." -Kirkwood #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!demos!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 9 Jan 1997 13:21:21 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) writes: >In article , jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: >>In fact, I know of research projects where people used postscript to add >>functionality to servers and device drivers, that had nothing to do with >>graphics. It is a turing-complete programming language. You can write >>a LISP interpreter in it if you like! >I don't want yet another programming language .. I just want to be able to >image. The fact that PS is intrepeted is also bothersome.. Never has >interpreted been equated with high speed. The whole purpose of pre-emptive I wasn't suggesting that we all start writing apps in Postscript. I was making a point about extensibility. The speed of DPS comes from its caching machinery, and raster operations. These have had many years and many passes of code revision, and Adobe does have some of the best graphics hackers who ever wrote code. I know a few of them. >MT and other such goodies is give performance to the user. This is an area >that I think BeOS seems to win in (their imaging is extremely fast). I >would have actually liked to see something closer to how Be did it (taking >advantage of the FPU in PPC chips -- and Pentinum also has FPU built-in).. >it seems disappointing. AFAIK, DPS does use the floating-point hardware in whatever CPU it's running on. As for Be's speed, well, they'd *better* be fast on a dual-PPC machine. DPS was fast enough to use on a 25Mhz '040. I can't wait to see some of the PS fractal hacks run on a 225Mhz 604! >While some of this is bothersome, I'm not ready to condemn DPS - but it >does raise some questions about it. >I hope Apple talks to someone BESIDES Adobe (they're opinions are SLIGHTLY >BIASED) on this to make sure they're making the right decision about the >imaging model. Apple hasn't been doing much talking to Adobe on this subject. Adobe only found out about the merger a few days before we all did. -jcr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:23:04 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21465 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52381 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178338 comp.sys.mac.system:190851 In article <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > So I guess you wouldn't want /System/Control Panel etc either...? > > That's basically what most of this stuff is. Oh, true enough, but there's a quality and quantity thing. I mean, do I need all the .conf files? How about the shells and all the support stuff for them? man pages? > There are also a number of features in the current implementation of NEXTSTEP > which explicitly allow you to hide some files (the most basic one bing the > "Unix Expert" flag in Preferences, which if not selected hides exactly all > those /bin, /etc folders you don't want to see. Yeah, but all that stuff adds up a lot in size. I'd personally rather not have it installed unless I want it. > A small group of users, however, will find those directories and their > contents very useful -- mainly developers and some system administrators > (techies if you want). Whilst a minority, IMHO AppLE cannot afford to make > these people's lives more difficult just for the sake of it... Absolutely, and they should get to install it off the same CD. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 16:24:17 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21466 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52389 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178346 comp.sys.mac.system:190856 In article <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to > buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is > stuff which is used by the OS itself... My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store files she'll never use. Hmmmm. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.nwnet.net!news-hub.interserv.net!news.sprynet.com!news From: piercej@m4.sprynet.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 22:39:41 +0000 Organization: Sprynet News Service Lines: 17 Message-ID: <32D2D0AD.6870@m4.sprynet.com> References: <5aigjj$72u$1@aggedor.rmit.edu.au> <5ak4r4$9je@news3.digex.net> <32CE8F2E.1A12@m4.sprynet.com> <5aq7uf$7vo@huffalump.visi.com> Reply-To: piercej@sprynet.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dd69-016.compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01E (Macintosh; I; PPC) CC: jonathan_pierce@seagram.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11002 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3477 comp.sys.next.programmer:21467 >piercej@m4.sprynet.com wrote: >: Code developed using the NEXT development tools and frameworks is >still OS dependant. david young responded: >>Wrong. You've missed the whole point of OpenStep. >>Thanks for playing, though. Not really. I didn't say processor dependant, I said OS dependant. OpenStep is an OS and applications using it require it to be installed. It is impossible for me to ship applications on W95 and WindowsNT without requiring users to license and install OpenStep first. Even if users could obtain it free, they may not be willing to install the environment since it adds overhead they may not feel is justified. -Jonathan #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Apple-NeXT Conflicts? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 9 Jan 1997 22:35:50 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5b3rs6$jvc@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <32CB01DB.41AB@exnext.com> <32D3AD84.237C@aurora.jhuapl.edu> <5b0h10$73b@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1d96$5hn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178359 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52401 comp.sys.next.programmer:21468 Note: followups to comp.sys.next.programmer On 01/09/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > > If a Class adopts a Protocol > > it asserts that it has definitions for all the methods declared in the > > Protocol. Furthermore, since Objective-C allows dynamic binding (and the > > concept of Delegates) messages sent to one Object can be forwarded on to > > another for handling. > > Ok, can you give me an example? I'll give you one and perhaps you can > illustrate how this works to the same solution... > There is a thread on this subject already in comp.sys.next.programmer in which this is being discussed by people for more able than I, and a couple of excellent examples have already been given -- may I point you to those. > In the PowerPlant book them give a perfect example of why MI works well > in a class lib. Consider a window field that allows the user to input a > string. It's got a lot in common with a lot of other standard things that > can be placed in windows, so we group the common code into something like > WindowGizmos. These are things that can be drawn in windows, so you put > them into some WindowItems class. > > But the cursor in the field has to blink, it will have to get time every > so often. So this means that you have to have it be a part of a > Periodical class, because lots of other things need time too. Without MI > this means that the View class has to come from the Periodical class, even > though only a SINGLE class WAYYYY down the chain needs anything from > Periodical! Making Periodical a mixin class solves the problem, you > inherit it directly into the classes that need it. > > The result is easy to see, TCL is VERY deep, PowerPlant is VERY flat. I > like flat. > > Ok, so can this be done in Object C? Can you give an example? > Well, clearly it can be done -- my cursor's blinking away as I type! :-) This sort of thing, though, is usually handled by the (PostScript) Window Server, which handles timed events, and can be used in a number of creative ways. For most TextFields etc that you use, unless you're writing your own DTP app, I'd imagine you'd either be using an AppKit TextField or a subclass thereof, in which case the cursor is handled for you automatically. Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!not-for-mail From: shimpei@argo.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 9 Jan 1997 14:44:29 -0800 Organization: Hummingbird Heaven Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: argo.patnet.caltech.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21469 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52405 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178363 comp.sys.mac.system:190872 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu>, mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) wrote: > >> No. This is stupid. It means that standard applications cannot assume the >> presence of useful unix style utilities. Users might not want to know >> about '/bin', but they do not want a program or internal script to die on >> account of its absence. > > Standard applications can current assume that Unix is not installed. I >run about 100 applications on my Macs, and not a single one of them calls >anything remotely like Unix. Sure having the utilities allows a lazy >programmer to do less work, but I don't see this as a goal. If you hate Unix so much, Nextstep is constructed such that you don't have to use any of them, and you don't have to see any of them unless you go hunting for them. I see a whole bunch of files in my System Folder whose purposes are entirely unclear; I'm just afraid to delete them all in case I screw something up. They are definitely an eyesore--gosh, the Preference folder sure gathers up a lot of muck after a few months of trying out new software! Ditto for the Extensions folder. On the other hand, they appear to be perfectly harmless if left alone, so I keep my mouse pointers away from them. The little Unix files in /bin, /etc and whatever are no different if you don't know or like Unix. Some of them are absolutely necessary for running a system (I'm not sure exactly how NeXT handles bootup, but if it's anything like normal Unix, bootup is handled through Bourne shell scripts, which rely heavily on these Unix programs), and others come in very handy once every so often. And if you don't want to see them, nothing prevents you from ignoring their existence, much like I ignore the Extension folder's existence 99.9% of the time. I completely disagree about the laziness issue. Maybe it's true for commercial-grade programs, because using external routines often introduces big speed penalties. On the other hand, people who often write short programs or scripts (the same folks who have embraced AppleScript) will benefit a lot from having a complete set of file-manipulation utilities lying around. For those types of applications, development time is much more important than the speed of the final solution. -- Shimpei Yamashita Graduate Student, Caltech Dept. of Physics shimpei@socrates.caltech.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 22:07:39 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 33 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) writes: > In Geoffrey Clapp wrote: > > > The AppKit and OpenStep frameworks are very similar to MacApp, PowerPlant, > > MFC, TCL, etc. > > Sorry to tell but you are wrong. AppKit and OpenStep frameworks have in fact > not much in common with MacApp, PowerPlant, MFC, TCL, etc. While I've disagreed with Geoff Clapp about a number of details in this thread, if you don't see that MacApp and AppKit are similar, then you don't understand the issues here. The point of MacApp, and the fundamental structure of an AppKit program are the same: That you relinquish the control flow to an App object which then asks objects within your program to perform tasks as appropriate in response to user actions. Both systems set up a null application with the user then fills in the behaviours for. This fundamentally different to the way X, or older Mac programs are/were written. Here the program retains control, doing it's own thing, and polls the UI for information about the users actions receiving a list of events which it then has to parse and deal with. Having ported a number of apps from X to NeXTStep, changing this around can be a problem (Uae uses a very nasty hack to get round this). The fundamental structure of a MacApp app is the same as an AppKit app, and this is a good start for those transfering. $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 9 Jan 1997 23:40:05 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 93 Message-ID: <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21471 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52409 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178368 comp.sys.mac.system:190882 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford > wrote: > > > So I guess you wouldn't want /System/Control Panel etc either...? > > > > That's basically what most of this stuff is. > > Oh, true enough, but there's a quality and quantity thing. I mean, do I > need all the .conf files? How about the shells and all the support stuff > for them? man pages? Man pages are already installed from a seperate package. You have to want them to get them. The remaining .conf files are needed by the system to function properly. They are the UNIXy things that haven't moved into NetInfo, and they alone don't take up much space. If Apple gets rid of them by moving them into NetInfo, then great, but the difficulty there is that they are things that typically get configured _before_ NetInfo starts up! (Note that the GUI sysadmin tools _do_ modify many of these files, so you don't have to go in with vi or emacs to configure things--in many cases.) You don't want to throw out the /usr/adm stuff, since the logs in there are the first thing a support person would want to look at to determine what is wrong with a system. You can't throw out /private because that's where the vm filesystem is as well as all the .conf files (/etc is a link into there) and is needed for normal operation of the machine. What's left? A few shlibs and some UNIX commands. The large majority of them are needed by GUI apps--they are the underlying functionality. I wrote another port on this in more detail explaining why those shouldn't be thrown out. > > There are also a number of features in the current implementation of > > NEXTSTEP which explicitly allow you to hide some files (the most > > basic one being the "Unix Expert" flag in Preferences, which if not > > selected hides exactly all those /bin, /etc folders you don't want > > to see. > > Yeah, but all that stuff adds up a lot in size. I'd personally rather > not have it installed unless I want it. I really think the UNIX Expert preference is all the hiding Apple needs to do--and is all they should do. You should have a least common denominator that all app developers can count on, and it is important to not take away functionality in the system. You might not use it directly yourself, but the GUI Apps you do use directly will rely upon it. You may not want that stuff, but it turns out you'll need it to run things. If Apple's going to get this thing out the door within a year, they don't have time to rewrite all the UNIXy stuff and move it elsewhere on the system--and I can't really see any advantage to embarking on such a project anyway. You lose more than you gain. > In article <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford > wrote: > > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult > > these days to buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And > > remember much of this is stuff which is used by the OS itself... > My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store files > she'll never use. Hmmmm. I think you should consider a new HD as part of the price of an upgrade. Or just don't upgrade. Stick with what you have that already works. Or spend the $200-$300 to get a new 1GB+ hard drive. It won't kill you! Also note that the compiler and about half of the stuff that is installed on the drive mentioned is another optional package--the developer tools. So the footprint is smaller than you think for the UNIXy stuff. An 80Meg hard drive is outdated hardware at this stage of the game, and not sufficient for a modern OS. If the disk is only 80 Meg, even if Apple _does_ remove all the UNIXy stuff, I guarantee you that Rhapsody will NOT fit on it, let alone anything else. You honestly need to have a 400M or larger drive to run NEXTSTEP/OPENSTP. And don't expect that to shrink too much--once you get backward compatability added in, expect that to only _expand_! Disk space is cheap nowadays. That shouldn't be clouding decisions like this one. (And at Apple, I'm sure it isn't...) Then again, maybe I'm spoiled by the ~8 GB of space I have shared by my NeXTs for development. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 02:09:27 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca19-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jan 08 6:09:27 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11003 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3478 comp.sys.next.programmer:21472 kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) wrote: > How about: > Ada, Basic, Cobol, Eiffel, Fortran, LISP, Pascal, PL/I and Prolog. A few of the above are or have been available for NEXTSTEP. I would imagine that they, plus others, will be ported to Rhapsody with its probable significantly better market share than NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Mach. However, none of them took advantage of the huge amount of functionality provided by the various Objective-C object kits included by NeXT. > Even if one considers "languages one can send > over the net for extremely trusting individuals to execute in their > own security context" (a _very_ small part of "work related to the > internet"), the only element Java has going for it is the planned > pervasiveness of the Java Byte Code engine. I humbly suggest that Java provides much of the advantages of Objective-C plus provides automatic garbage collection, a big win. Some of the languages you list above support automatic GC also, but for programmers accustomed to C-based languages, automatic GC is very attractive. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!btnet!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 9 Jan 1997 01:55:47 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b1j73$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5amhc2$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <1997Jan5.085111.1@eisner> <5ap7gf$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5aq4vt$bfu@sjx-ixn9.ix.netcom.com> <5arh7t$2no@nyheter.chalmers.se> <32D33F89.7C0E@watershed.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca19-01.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jan 08 5:55:47 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11004 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3479 comp.sys.next.programmer:21473 "Dirk P. Fromhein" wrote: > But all this is irrelevant as I think Java will be *THE* programming > language from now on (for custom apps and even shrinkwap apps). I agree. I guess it's too much to hope for considering the huge job Apple and NeXT engineers have ahead of them just to get a nice OS running on Mac hardware, but my dream would be for a port of the OPENSTEP API to Java so we won't have to deal with memory management any more. But I would miss the self-documenting Objective-C named method arguments - initWithContentRect:styleMask:backing:defer: (NSWindow's designated initializer). NeXT apparently recently released support for mixing Java and Objective-C to the extent that a class implemented in one language could be subclassed in the other language, so this might be a reasonable approximation if it works seamlessly. I don't have any details about this, so maybe I just dreamed it :-) -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: Chung Yang Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 09 Jan 1997 15:18:03 -0800 Organization: Sun Microelectronics Lines: 42 Sender: chyang@thesands Message-ID: <840rajujv4k.fsf@Eng.Sun.COM> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: thesands.eng.sun.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.40/XEmacs 20.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21474 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52422 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178390 comp.sys.mac.system:190897 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes: > > In article <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu>, mbk@inls1.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) wrote: > > > No. This is stupid. It means that standard applications cannot assume the > > presence of useful unix style utilities. Users might not want to know > > about '/bin', but they do not want a program or internal script to die on > > account of its absence. > > Standard applications can current assume that Unix is not installed. I > run about 100 applications on my Macs, and not a single one of them calls > anything remotely like Unix. Sure having the utilities allows a lazy > programmer to do less work, but I don't see this as a goal. Try to look at it from another perspective. Having utility allows a "not so lazy" programmer to be more productive. IMHO, is a good goal to have. Also consider why people needed Unix untilities. Unix is a huge operating system that most of the time exists in a heavily networked environment that often needs to work on completely different harware platforms. Even the most astute programmar would not be able to hack a piece of code that works on all machines. Lets consider for a moment. What if the MacOS is a cross platform OS? How would you be able to keep your sanity to make sure that the app you are writing works on all variations of MacOS? Recompile on every machine? Or wouldn't it be better to have a set of commonly used utility already in the OS. And if you want to do tool control or file level manipulation, all you do is to write scripting languages to execute those utilities. Finally, consider for a moment. The next generation OS for the Mac platform will need to do all those stuff that unix has been able to do for over 20 years. - Chung > Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 00:19:50 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 73 Message-ID: <5b41v6$ebp@news.xmission.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21475 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52428 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178397 comp.sys.mac.system:190902 shimpei@argo.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita) wrote: > If you hate Unix so much, Nextstep is constructed such that you don't > have to use any of them, and you don't have to see any of them unless > you go hunting for them. This is very true. They are in well defined places and by default are hidden by the GUI. > I see a whole bunch of files in my System > Folder whose purposes are entirely unclear; I'm just afraid to delete > them all in case I screw something up. They are definitely an > eyesore--gosh, the Preference folder sure gathers up a lot of muck > after a few months of trying out new software! Ditto for the > Extensions folder. On the other hand, they appear to be perfectly > harmless if left alone, so I keep my mouse pointers away from them. The beauty of NEXTSTEP is that you wouldn't even have to see these! They would be out of sight and out of mind. :-) You can configure which files are hidden by the GUI. > The little Unix files in /bin, /etc and whatever are no different if > you don't know or like Unix. Some of them are absolutely necessary for > running a system (I'm not sure exactly how NeXT handles bootup, but if > it's anything like normal Unix, bootup is handled through Bourne shell > scripts, which rely heavily on these Unix programs), That's right. It uses sh. And, if you do hopelessly screw up your system config, you can usually boot into single user mode and fix it back up without losing any files. Obviously, this is a feature Joe User won't use, but a support technician would need it to recover the system. And that relies upon sh and vi/emacs at the very least to get the job done. There's a lot of other UNIX programs that get run during bootup, too, and are absolutely necessary to start the system. > I completely disagree about the laziness issue. Maybe it's true for > commercial-grade programs, because using external routines often > introduces big speed penalties. Even then, it depends upon what the program is doing. Most of the backup programs for NeXT are actually wrappers around tar and/or dump, which are UNIX programs, for example. In this case, that is a good thing, because gnutar, for example, is well tested software and that inspires confidence in the user. And the extra process overhead on a tar dump isn't going to be significant since a backup will almost always take long enough to make the startup of a new process negligible. The Installer is also wrapped around tar/compress, and Opener.app wraps around just about every archiving and compressing tool in existence. Apps like these are as robust and fast as necessary and that "extra overhead" isn't a problem at all. Another advantage of using these tools is that other apps can also make use of the same tools--sort of like a primitive shared library. That helps cut down on the app size and conserves disk space. > On the other hand, people who often > write short programs or scripts (the same folks who have embraced > AppleScript) will benefit a lot from having a complete set of > file-manipulation utilities lying around. For those types of > applications, development time is much more important than the speed > of the final solution. Absolutely! For those who have taken the time to learn what tools exist and how to use them, this is an understatement! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!depot.mro.dec.com!news.jrd.dec.com!tbjnws.tbj.dec.com!tkonws.tko.dec.com!news.dec-j!spin-hsd1-tky!spinnews!spin-pp0-osk!spinosk!threeWeb-news!news.osk.threewebnet.or.jp!news.osk.threewebnet.or.jp!ici From: ici@giocoso.osk.threewebnet.or.jp (Toshinao Ishii) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Audio problem after upgrading 3.2 -> 3.3 Date: 09 Jan 1997 15:57:21 GMT Organization: 3Web internet service Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5aj1r6$mu6@tron.sci.fi> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppi007.osk.threewebnet.or.jp In-reply-to: comm@sci.fi's message of 3 Jan 1997 13:33:26 GMT In article <5aj1r6$mu6@tron.sci.fi> comm@sci.fi (Juha Tuominen) writes: > I updated a customer's Intel NeXTstep system from 3.2 to 3.3. Their audio > program began acting weird after the update. When recording a sound and > stopping the recording with stop button (sends stop: message to sound > object) the audio driver receives the stop message and it stops recording, > but sound object fails to send didRecord: message to delegate object What about changing IRQ ? I have an experience that playing sound became not smooth after I changed video card. I tried several combination of IRQs asigned to the sound card and found a good one. -=-=-=-=-=-=-= Toshinao Ishii email: ici@osk.threewebnet.or.jp (NeXTMAIL/MIME Welcome) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 10 Jan 1997 00:33:28 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5b42oo$ebp@news.xmission.com> References: Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: > AFAIK, DPS does use the floating-point hardware in whatever CPU > it's running on. That is correct. In fact, when NEXTSTEP was ported from m68k to x86 architectures, one of the disappointments was the the graphics speeds weren't much better. When you sit down to analyze why this is, there are two reasons: (1) Bus architectures. NeXT had local bus video (and a fine design of it) long before the Intel world did and subsequently the PC bus slowed things down. Nowadays, there are good video subsystems for Intel hardware that take care of this problem adequately. But, even more telling, (2) When you compare x86 and m68k series, you find that Motorola's FP performance is better than that of an equivalent Intel CPU. Conversely, the Intel processors do better with integer math. Since DPS does so many FP calculations, you find that the m68k still retained an advantage--longer than one might have originally expected. So you can count on DPS to take full advantage of the FPU! In fact, the FPU and the graphics bus speeds are far more important to DPS than the integer math speed of the CPU. > As for Be's speed, well, they'd *better* be > fast on a dual-PPC machine. DPS was fast enough to use on a 25Mhz > '040. I can't wait to see some of the PS fractal hacks run on a > 225Mhz 604! No kidding! DPS is really a lot faster than most people expect. I've got a Pentium Pro that dual boots OPENSTEP and Win95/WinNT. Frankly, OPENSTEP _feels_ as fast as the other OSes. In fact, it feels _really_ fast on this hardware, after coming off my Turbo slab (which is still bearable performance, at least). -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!demos!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!usenet From: bmunn@lighthouse.com (Beth Munn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Open Positions! Lighthouse Design, Sun Microsystems, Inc. business Date: 10 Jan 1997 00:38:22 GMT Organization: Lighthouse Design, a Sun Microsystems business Lines: 48 Message-ID: <5b431u$35v@nntp1.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ballast.lighthouse.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Lighthouse Design (a Sun Microsystems business) 2929 Campus Drive San Mateo, Ca. 94403 415.570.7736 http://www.lighthouse.com Founded in 1989, and acquired by Sun Microsystems in July of 1996, Lighthouse Design is one of the industry's most experienced developers of applications for purely object-oriented environments. Lighthouse offers the exciting and fast paced environment of a small company, while being able to provide "big company" benefits. JavaPlan, the newest product from Lighthouse Design is the industry's first enterprise devlopment platform forthe analysis, design and generation of sophisticated Java applications. Lighthouse is also the premiere provider of productivity applications for the OpenStep and Solaris environments. We are looking for individuals who can demonstrate excellence in Object-OrientedTechnology, GUI design, software engineering management, and application development. Your skills should include: JAVA, OBJECTIVE-C, SMALLTALK, C++, OPENSTEP, SOLARIS, Windows NT, RDBMS, OODBMS, OO A/D, and "off the shelf" application development, The following positions are currently open: JAVA DEVELOPMENT MANAGER APPLICATIONS ENGINEERS JAVAPLAN ENGINEERS SALES ENGINEERS TRAINERS/CURRICULUM DEVELOPERS OPERATIONS MANAGER .....and others!! Lighthouse is a leader in the Object-Oriented software industry, come and work with some of the best people in the business. For more informaiton please contact or send your resume to: Beth Munn 415-570-7736 bmunn@lighthouse.com For other opportunities, please see our web site at: www.lighthouse.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 19:04:56 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32D587A8.5ECB@steeldriving.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: jon@steeldriving.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21479 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52443 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178408 comp.sys.mac.system:190914 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford > wrote: > > > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to > > buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is > > stuff which is used by the OS itself... > > My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store files > she'll never use. Hmmmm. Something tells me your Mom won't be running out to buy the new OS. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 01:01:03 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21480 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52444 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178410 comp.sys.mac.system:190916 On 01/09/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > Oh, true enough, but there's a quality and quantity thing. I mean, do I > need all the .conf files? How about the shells and all the support stuff > for them? man pages? > Shells you certainly want, as the OS (as it is at the moment) depends on them. Man pages are not installed as standard (you have to explicitly install the Documentation package). .conf files... hmm, can't say I've ever touched them myself, and I can't see more than half a dozen of them. Again, looks like the system depends on them though. I certainly agree it would be good if AppLE could tidy come of this up... in the fullness of time :-) (Back to this "get something out of the door ASAP theme) > Yeah, but all that stuff adds up a lot in size. I'd personally rather > not have it installed unless I want it. > I'm not sure how much superfluous stuff there really is... much of the space is taken up with things like libraries (20+MB in /usr/lib), the kernel etc. The Bourne shell, for example, is only 120K. The whole of NEXTSTEP, absolute minimum installation, takes up less than 100MB I believe. I don't know just how much MacOS uses, but if you added enough extras to give you the same functionality (i.e. you'd have to add internet connectivity, a number of applications for system administration etc), I wonder if you'd be in the same ballpark? Say 50MB? Or am I being wildly "pessimistic" (I may be, I have no idea... I have a copy of an upgrade for 7.5.5 here, but can't work out the sizes of the relevant files). > Absolutely, and they should get to install it off the same CD. > As others have pointed out, I suspect that so many things would depend on whatever you would like to be made optional that the majority of users would end up having to install this stuff later anyway, after the inconvenience of finding out the hard way that they did need it. At a time when, as I said before, it seems to be difficult to find a hard drive smaller than 1GB, for the sake of a few tens of MB at the most, it doesn't seem worth worrying about "wasted space". (Your concerns about hiding things from the user are fair enough, and I hope others have shown that NeXT had already taken effective steps to address that -- hopefully AppLE can now take a few steps further). Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 02:58:40 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b4b90$9u8@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca17-04.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 09 8:58:40 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21481 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52456 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178424 comp.sys.mac.system:190945 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford > wrote: > > > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to > > buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is > > stuff which is used by the OS itself... > > My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store files > she'll never use. Hmmmm. Hopefully, all readers of this group understand that a system with an 80 MB system disk isn't going to have the other resources necessary to run Rhapsody (how much RAM does her system have?). This system will continue to work fine with the various System 7 upgrades and isn't a system that Apple has targeted for Rhapsody. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!tezcat!mckinnon.tezcat.com!user From: mckinnon@tezcat.com (Chuck McKinnon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 00:53:44 -0600 Organization: Satan's Servers of Process Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: mckinnon.tezcat.com X-url: http://www.tezcat.com/~mckinnon/ X-key: ftp://tezcat.com//users/mckinnon/pubkey.asc Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21482 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52469 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178441 comp.sys.mac.system:190951 In article <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au>, Ferret wrote: >Here are the files that make my Mac go in the system folder: >Finder - the basis of the OS >System - what makes the finder go >Control Panels - filled with all sorts a crap that I throw in there >Extentions - same as control panels >Fonts - pretty obvious >Preferences - ditto > >No /usr or /etc or any of that crut, Well if .apps all have to go into a certian location for the OS to work, why not make the "Applications" folder act like the System folder. Currently, the Applications folder is a normal folder with a special icon, and the system will recognize it as such; also the Finder allows for protection of this folder. Just go the next step (pun intended) and make the Applications folder the required place for .apps and make the system treat it as such. This would make even more sense for new/consumer user: it makes sense. All apps go in the Applications folder, [duh!] and the new system will get what it need. Or is this too simple? -- Chuck McKinnon + mckinnon@tezcat.com --------------------------------------------------- Chicago Municipal Code Section 4-24-140: "No domestic animals, except _cats_, shall be permitted in a bakery or place where flour or meal is stored in connection therewith, and suitable provisions shall be made to prevent nuisances from the presence of cats." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.177.125.4!inetserv2.fs.lmco.com!news.lfso.loral.com!news.manassas.ibm.com!usenet From: Koplien@vnet.IBM.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Speculation about OS/NT's future, anyone? Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 07:53:08 Organization: Lockheed Martin Federal Systems in Manassas, VA, USA Lines: 10 Message-ID: <5b4p0r$uv6@news.manassas.ibm.com> References: <5ams2t$7gl@mercury.IntNet.net> <5av8el$mo4@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 9.164.177.55 X-Newsreader: IBM-WebExplorer-DLL I think it makes no sense to do anything now. My opinion about the migration of Steve is: NeXTStep is dead. Apple have had very hard times and Steve isn't the phoenix. The PowerPC was a great mess and chips like the 620 will never come. Apple have to build a new machine with a xxx (?) processor nobody knows, to compete with. The well designed OS don't succeed on the most common platform, so why should things go better on a dead processor? Tell me! And keep in mind, the hardware problems of the black ones are not unknown to Steve... (BTW, AMD quits the remake of the Intel chips, so there is nobody left to strike against the valance of Intel) The opinions are mine. Henry #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!dcn134.dcn.davis.ca.us!user From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 21:50:42 -0800 Organization: Bridge Family Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dcn134.dcn.davis.ca.us X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21484 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52484 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178457 comp.sys.mac.system:190975 In article <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu>, shimpei@argo.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita) wrote: etely disagree about the laziness issue. Maybe it's true for > commercial-grade programs, because using external routines often > introduces big speed penalties. On the other hand, people who often > write short programs or scripts (the same folks who have embraced > AppleScript) will benefit a lot from having a complete set of > file-manipulation utilities lying around. For those types of > applications, development time is much more important than the speed > of the final solution. > > -- > Shimpei Yamashita > Graduate Student, Caltech Dept. of Physics shimpei@socrates.caltech.edu Unfortunately you're looking at your machine like a mechanic -- not like a user who has not interest or desire to open the hood. The Mac world, in its philosophy, is nothing like the UNIX world. They are polar opposites. What for you makes a wonderful set of tools would scare the bejesus out of my wife if something she saw even HINTED they were there - she's been a Mac user for 9 years, through 3 different hardware systems, and does highly productive design work. It's a tool -- and one that is completely command-line free. In my opinion, if Apple is to succeed, they MUST maintain that distance between the OS and the user interface. I don't care if it's UNIX under the hood or OpenVMS or BeOS, I want the machine to work, not crash, and present a consistant and relatively familier user-interface. If there's more there, it's okay, as long as I'm NEVER required to make use of it. Which means I can install applications ANYWHERE I want on my system, including dumb places. Having the OS system in a more rigorously defined location is okay -- but I shouldn't have to manipulate what's there directly through some arcane set of UNIX commands designed back in the days when ASR33 teletypes were the state of the art. I recognize the power of complex command-line driven tools. They're wonderful for mega-power-users. But hold little meaning for virtually ALL current Macintosh USERS. Regards, Adam Bridge #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsout1.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 00:33:42 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21485 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52486 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178460 comp.sys.mac.system:190976 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Standard applications can current assume that Unix is not installed. I > run about 100 applications on my Macs, and not a single one of them calls > anything remotely like Unix. Sure having the utilities allows a lazy > programmer to do less work, but I don't see this as a goal. You apparently aren't a programmer. There are gobs of well-written utilities around, and it's utterly senseless to rewrite them from scratch, especially considering that they have already gone through extensive testing/debugging cycles. Why should an application have code to send mail when it can call an existing mail transport agent? Why should it have code to search files for text when there are already grep programs which are optimized to within an inch of their lives to do this? Etc. Sure, you could make the utilities optional, but if app developers can't assume that they're there, they're not likely to opt to use them, and will end up rewriting lots of things. And when it comes down to it, all the Unix utilities comprise a relatively small portion of the total disk usage. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!surf.metro.net.au!news From: Ferret Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:21:36 +1000 Organization: n/a Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp208.surf.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21486 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52487 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178461 comp.sys.mac.system:190977 mmalcolm crawford wrote: > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to > buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is > stuff which is used by the OS itself... > > I am having difficulty understanding your prejudice here -- what all this > stuff represents is effectively what I (assume) MacOS has in its /System > folder, it's just spread around a bit more (perhaps something for AppLE to > address, though doing so might break a lot of stuff), and with a more obscure > nomenclature. Here are the files that make my Mac go in the system folder: Finder - the basis of the OS System - what makes the finder go Control Panels - filled with all sorts a crap that I throw in there Extentions - same as control panels Fonts - pretty obvious Preferences - ditto No /usr or /etc or any of that crut, Ferret -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Sverre 'Ferret' Gunnersen | |e-mail: mailto:ferret@surf.net.au | |Melbourne, Australia | | "I like reality, It tastes of bread." -J. Aliyoueh | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!jbf From: jbf@frazer.com (James B. Frazer) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:20:37 -0500 Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: frazer.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21487 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52493 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178472 comp.sys.mac.system:190983 In article <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > The whole of NEXTSTEP, absolute minimum installation, takes up less than > 100MB I believe. I don't know just how much MacOS uses, but if you added > enough extras to give you the same functionality (i.e. you'd have to add > internet connectivity, a number of applications for system administration > etc), I wonder if you'd be in the same ballpark? My system partition, with the 7.5.5 OS and a minimal set of Unixy utilities, runs to 90MB. Now that's somewhat inflated by my PowerPC architecture; perhaps the equivalent would be 60-70 MB on a 680x0. That's close enough so that Mac fans shouldn't fret. And, believe me, those Unix utilities replace a great many small Mac applications. Barney #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!usenet From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.be Subject: Interpreted Drawing (Was Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example)) Date: 10 Jan 1997 06:57:22 GMT Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5b4p8i$m0l@nntp1.best.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp.jumpgate.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00002 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21488 comp.sys.be:20748 On 01/08/97, Mark Munz wrote: > >I don't want yet another programming language .. I just want to be >able to image. The fact that PS is intrepeted is also bothersome.. ^^^^^^^^^^ >Never has interpreted been equated with high speed. The whole purpose >of pre-emptive MT and other such goodies is give performance to the >user. This is an area that I think BeOS seems to win in (their imaging >is extremely fast). I would have actually liked to see something >closer to how Be did it (taking advantage of the FPU in PPC chips -- >and Pentinum also has FPU built-in).. it seems disappointing. I don't think that DPS is THAT much different than what Be is doing as for as interpreting drawing commands goes. (Someone from Be correct me if I'm wrong on this...) Under NeXTSTEP/OpenStep, an application will either use the DPS client library functions or pswraps to send encoded postscript rendering commands to the DPS Window server. On BeOS, a similar mechanism is used by the BView class to send drawing commands to the app_server process. So in a sense, theyare BOTH using interpreters. The difference is that the DPS window server's byte code just happens to be encoded PostScript, while on BeOS it's proprietary. Both systems are able to take advantage of multitasking and multiprocessing (at least on NT, and presumably on the new Apple OS) to offload the drawing operations to another task and/or CPU. -Ken #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.63.63.70!nwnews.wa.com!jesjones From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Bad mouthing templates Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 22:06:15 -0800 Organization: Jet City Studios, Inc Lines: 56 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blv-pm114-ip12.halcyon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11006 comp.sys.next.programmer:21489 In article <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com>, Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, > aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > > Templates are a hack to deal with C++'s strict typing that aren't needed > >in Objective-C (hope my lack of full understanding of templates isn't showing > >too much :-) An Objective-C collection can contain objects of any type and > >can even include objects of different types without the need to resort to > >some sort of template mechanism. > > > > I believe that perhaps the better way to phrase this might be: Templates > are a hack to provide type safety in C++'s that isn't needed in > Objective-C... Like Eiffel C++ was designed to make writing production quality code easier. A large part of this is static type checking which at compile time checks *all* your code for type mismatches. In a language with less static type checking you need to execute each code path in your application to get the same result. For a large application this is very difficult. Like Eiffel C++ provides compile time polymorphism to achieve additional flexibility without sacrificing type safety. In C++ this is done with templates which are useful for much more than just container classes. For example, in C++ it's as easy to write a templatized FFT as one hardcoded for a specific type. Yet the template version allows you to use floats, doubles, long doubles, or even a big float class. I can only remember seeing three half-way valid criticisms of templates: 1) Templates cause massive code. This can happen very easily with naive implementations, but it can be largely alleviated by using non-template base classes and partial specialization. 2) It's difficult to write exception safe template code since any method of the parameterized class can throw an exception. This is also overblown: with care and experience with exception handling safe code can be written. 3) Templates force the compiler to slog thru much more code thereby reducing compile speeds. This can be dealt with by not using MSVC, by using non-template base classes, and by forward referencing template classes in headers. It's my understanding that the ANSI committe has blessed seperate compilation for templates so this will hopefully become moot. I keep seeing Objective-C advocates claiming that it makes writing programs much easier. That may well be true, but the hard part of programming is not coding it's making the program do what it's supposed to do, perform well, and gracefully handle errors. C++ makes this easier because the language and the philosophy emphasize catching problems at compile time. Maintaining backward compatibility with C does make C++ less safe than it would otherwise have been, but in the hands of a skilled engineer it's a powerful and effective tool. --Jesse #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.63.63.70!nwnews.wa.com!jesjones From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Bad mouthing templates Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 22:03:30 -0800 Organization: Jet City Studios, Inc Lines: 56 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blv-pm114-ip12.halcyon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11007 comp.sys.next.programmer:21490 In article <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com>, Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, > aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > > Templates are a hack to deal with C++'s strict typing that aren't needed > >in Objective-C (hope my lack of full understanding of templates isn't showing > >too much :-) An Objective-C collection can contain objects of any type and > >can even include objects of different types without the need to resort to > >some sort of template mechanism. > > > > I believe that perhaps the better way to phrase this might be: Templates > are a hack to provide type safety in C++'s that isn't needed in > Objective-C... Like Eiffel C++ was designed to make writing production quality code easier. A large part of this is static type checking which at compile time checks *all* your code for type mismatches. In a language with less static type checking you need to execute each code path in your application to get the same result. For a large application this is very difficult. Like Eiffel C++ provides compile time polymorphism to achieve additional flexibility without sacrificing type safety. In C++ this is done with templates which are useful for much more than just container classes. For example, in C++ it's as easy to write a templatized FFT as one hardcoded for a specific type. Yet the template version allows you to use floats, doubles, long doubles, or even a big float class. I can only remember seeing three half-way valid criticisms of templates: 1) Templates cause massive code. This can happen very easily with naive implementations, but it can be largely alleviated by using non-template base classes and partial specialization. 2) It's difficult to write exception safe template code since any method of the parameterized class can throw an exception. This is also overblown: with care and experience with exception handling safe code can be written. 3) Templates force the compiler to slog thru much more code thereby reducing compile speeds. This can be dealt with by not using MSVC, by using non-template base classes, and by forward referencing template classes in headers. It's my understanding that the ANSI committe has blessed seperate compilation for templates so this will hopefully become moot. I keep seeing Objective-C advocates claiming that it makes writing programs much easier. That may well be true, but the hard part of programming is not coding it's making the program do what it's supposed to do, perform well, and gracefully handle errors. C++ makes this easier because the language and the philosophy emphasize catching problems at compile time. Maintaining backward compatibility with C does make C++ less safe than it would otherwise have been, but in the hands of a skilled engineer it's a powerful and effective tool. --Jesse #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 02:28:59 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32D5EFBB.2562@steeldriving.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: jon@steeldriving.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21491 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52510 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178497 comp.sys.mac.system:190995 mmalcolm crawford wrote: > At a time when, as I said before, it seems to be difficult to find a hard > drive smaller than 1GB, for the sake of a few tens of MB at the most, it > doesn't seem worth worrying about "wasted space". (Your concerns about > hiding things from the user are fair enough, and I hope others have shown > that NeXT had already taken effective steps to address that -- hopefully > AppLE can now take a few steps further). The fact that NeXT's filesystem doesn't suffer from the same file bloat the MacOS does should help a bit. A little 100-byte config file on the new OS won't take up 16k or 32k, like it would on HFS. It's not inconceivable that hard disks under the new OS, might actually end up with *more* free space, despite the apparent increase in system files. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!waldorf.csc.calpoly.edu!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 09:06:15 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21492 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52512 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178499 comp.sys.mac.system:190996 Ferret wrote: > mmalcolm crawford wrote: > > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to > > buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is > > stuff which is used by the OS itself... > > > > I am having difficulty understanding your prejudice here -- what all this > > stuff represents is effectively what I (assume) MacOS has in its /System > > folder, it's just spread around a bit more (perhaps something for AppLE to > > address, though doing so might break a lot of stuff), and with a more obscure > > nomenclature. > > Here are the files that make my Mac go in the system folder: > Finder - the basis of the OS > System - what makes the finder go > Control Panels - filled with all sorts a crap that I throw in there > Extentions - same as control panels > Fonts - pretty obvious > Preferences - ditto > > No /usr or /etc or any of that crut, The point is that the "crud" in /usr and /etc is a combination of Extensions and System--NEXTSTEP needs that stuff to run. You never have to look at it yourself if you don't want to. (I like the mechanic and hood comparison. Yes, the ugly user-unfriend- liness of UNIX is there. NEXTSTEP hides it with a more than adequate hood and _you_ have to lift that hood to see it. Most users never will. End of story. You can't just throw out the engine and expect the car to run, you know. You can't delete your System folder and expect your Mac to work very well. And Blow away /etc or /usr and your NeXT won't boot. Most users won't mess with the engine, System, or /usr and /etc and will never need to--and the "hood" hides the complexity. The mechanics of the world know it is there, though, and just love to play in the dirt and grime... :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!night.primate.wisc.edu!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 02:50:30 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5b4apm$al2@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21493 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52521 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178516 comp.sys.mac.system:191000 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store > files she'll never use. Hmmmm. Your mother has a PowerMac with an 80-meg disk? Really? And if she has a 68K-based, then she wasn't going to be running *any* of the new operating system choices that Apple was considering. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!waldorf.csc.calpoly.edu!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 10 Jan 1997 09:39:11 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 101 Message-ID: <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11008 comp.sys.next.programmer:21494 jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote: > I keep seeing Objective-C advocates claiming that it makes writing programs > much easier. That may well be true, but the hard part of programming is not > coding it's making the program do what it's supposed to do, perform well, > and gracefully handle errors. C++ makes this easier because the language > and the philosophy emphasize catching problems at compile time. Maintaining > backward compatibility with C does make C++ less safe than it would > otherwise have been, but in the hands of a skilled engineer it's a powerful > and effective tool. Wow. This is amazing. And he really believes what he's saying! With C++ my productivity hits rock bottom, at least when compared to what I can crank out in Objective C. And even with all the type checking the compiler is doing for me, I find my code quality is in the dumps with C++, as compared to Objective-C. Yeah, that picky compiler keeps me busy all right. Bow down to the needs of the compiler and satisfy its every whim. I like Objective C becase it reduces clutter in the system's design and is simply a better OO implementation (for reasons that have been hashed out zillions of times before). Let's face it: a large C++ project versus a large Objective-C project, what are the differences? * That picky C++ compiler means I can hire twice as many programmers and take twice as long to get it written. And even then it probably won't work right anyway. So much for stamping the bugs early on. The simplicity of Objective-C keeps most of those bugs from happening in the first place, because it is easier to write! Besides, a good design will, by nature, help reduce the bugs in the product. You should never trust a compiler to make up for flaws in a bad design, which is what I see far too many C++ programmers doing. (Not all are that way, thank heavens, but in practice the "compiler will spot the bugs" attitude often leads to this outcome.) * My resulting app will be much larger because of unnecessary code bloat caused by lack of dynamism. The design will bloat as well, as I work around language deficiencies. [To do effective GUI work you need to have a certain amount of dynamism. In C++, this means you re-invent your own mini runtime each time. In Objective-C, where you start with a runtime, you save yourself that much effort. Less code usually means fewer bugs, as far as I've seen.] * The C++ _may_ run a little faster, since I don't have the overhead of the runtime--but not as much as you'd think because of that code bloat and the less-than-optimal design the compiler's pickiness forces me to use. * C++ has all these nifty features (syntactic sugar) that I can use to increase my productivity. Too bad that the next guy that comes along--to maintain my code--can't figure out what the hell I did. Most Objective-C code is very nearly self documenting. The simpler designs mean the maintenance guys can come in and quickly find and fix problems. If there are any. You could argue that good and bad programming styles affect this comparison--and yes they sure do--but C++ promotes arcane usage and bad style because of its haphazard design whereas Objective-C does a lot to help promote good design. Plus, how many syntax elements does C++ add to C? Has anyone ever sat down and counted? Compare Objective-C's number--I think it is in the _teens_. So which is going to be easier to debug? And I could keep going...but I think my bias is obvious. Why? I've used both and I _know_ which one works better. As a final point, which OO environment has faster execution speed on like hardware and is more time tested and proven: NEXTSTEP or Taligent? Does anything more have to be said? That's two large systems of similar complexity, and one seems to be doing just a little bit better than the other, now, wouldn't you think? And while languge isn't the only reason for that particular situation, you can't blame management on that one. NeXT is notorious for being one of the most poorly managed companies ever, at least according to its many "enemies" and even a large portion of its advocates. Yes, with all that mismanagement, their product has _still_ survived, in spite of all they have done to apparently try and kill it off! That really says something to me about the product's quality! Of course, after using the product and those of competitors, I know firsthand why it is so great. You really have to give it a chance to "get it", and once you do, you'll never want to go back... As I sign off, I will say that a good design is paramount, no matter which language you choose. A lot of Objective C projects have failed, too, because of that. I _strongly_ suggest Bruce Webster's book, "Pitfalls of Object Oriented Programming." That's the wise voice of sad experience speaking there. May we all read and learn from it and avoid those traps! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!not-for-mail From: dozer@netwizards.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: would you be my friend? Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:03:31 Lines: 5 Message-ID: <5b50kh$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust2.max1.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net Hello, I'm 14 years old and I think I may be a gay. I'm looking for some support and friendship with a older male age 18-40. Please email if you can help. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 03:07:09 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21496 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52550 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178550 comp.sys.mac.system:191015 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes: [munch] > My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store files >she'll never use. Hmmmm. Yeah, and isn't it a disgrace that the new mac OS isn' going to run on my Mac Plus, with one meg of RAM? Sheesh! Seriously, maury. Disks are cheap. Buy your mom a new 1Gbyte drive. -jcr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!mordred.cc.jyu.fi!cyberspam!usenet Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer From: dozer@netwizards.net Subject: cmsg cancel <5b50kh$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net> Control: cancel <5b50kh$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net> Message-ID: Approved: otto@cc.jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela) Reply-To: otto@cc.jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela) X-Cancelled-by: otto@cc.jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela) Followup-to: junk References: <5b50kh$kmr@news1-alterdial.uu.net> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:03:31 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 1 Spam-cancel: "would you be my friend?" #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.he.net!nr1.scn.co.jp!news02.so-net.or.jp!news01.so-net.or.jp!sinfony-news01!wnoc-tyo-news!aist-nara!wnoc-kyo-news!omrongw!usenet From: shihong@mbox.kyoto-inet.or.jp (LAO Shihong) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mc.prorammer.misc Subject: Re: DPS *and* GX (was : Welcome to the New World Order) Date: 10 Jan 1997 10:23:35 GMT Organization: OMRON Corporation, Kyoto, JAPAN Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5b55b7$rml@omrongw2.wg.omron.co.jp> References: Reply-To: shihong@mbox.kyoto-inet.or.jp NNTP-Posting-Host: hamlet.wg.omron.co.jp In article "Lawson English" writes: > But PS wasn't designed with the Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Hindu-Urdi/etc > markets in mind. GX was. Maybe, but the best fonts for Chinese, Japanese are all PS fonts. Please stop saying such meaningless words. You just seems know nothing about DPS. GX might be good technology, but it's not enough to save Apple. ---- LAO Shihong (Firstname is surname) $(0@9'a$(1,c(B(use mule to show Chinese) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!surf.metro.net.au!news From: Ferret Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 19:16:57 +1000 Organization: n/a Lines: 34 Message-ID: <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp202.surf.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) To: Chuck McKinnon Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21498 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52566 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178567 comp.sys.mac.system:191031 Chuck McKinnon wrote: > Well if .apps all have to go into a certian location for the OS to work, > why not make the "Applications" folder act like the System folder. > Currently, the Applications folder is a normal folder with a special > icon, and the system will recognize it as such; also the Finder allows > for protection of this folder. > > Just go the next step (pun intended) and make the Applications folder > the required place for .apps and make the system treat it as such. This > would make even more sense for new/consumer user: it makes sense. > All apps go in the Applications folder, [duh!] and the new system will > get what it need. > > Or is this too simple? Well, um. The thing is, I dont want to be 'forced' into putting apps in the apps folder. All of my real apps are in the apps folder already. But temp apps, say resedit, I am only leaving there for an hour or so. I dont want to have to go thru the apps folder to get to it. I put in my disk, copy res edit to the desktop. Use it, throw it in the trash. As someone else said, i like to put things where I want. Even in dumb places. Yours, Ferret -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Sverre 'Ferret' Gunnersen | |e-mail: mailto:ferret@surf.net.au | |Melbourne, Australia | | "I like reality, It tastes of bread." -J. Aliyoueh | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!surf.metro.net.au!news From: Ferret Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 23:52:29 +1000 Organization: n/a Lines: 38 Message-ID: <32D6499E.1017@surf.net.au> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp202.surf.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21499 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52567 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178568 comp.sys.mac.system:191032 Don Yacktman wrote: > The point is that the "crud" in /usr and /etc is a combination > of Extensions and System--NEXTSTEP needs that stuff to run. You > never have to look at it yourself if you don't want to. (I like > the mechanic and hood comparison. Yes, the ugly user-unfriend- > liness of UNIX is there. NEXTSTEP hides it with a more than > adequate hood and _you_ have to lift that hood to see it. Most > users never will. End of story. You can't just throw out the > engine and expect the car to run, you know. You can't delete > your System folder and expect your Mac to work very well. And > Blow away /etc or /usr and your NeXT won't boot. Most users > won't mess with the engine, System, or /usr and /etc and will > never need to--and the "hood" hides the complexity. The > mechanics of the world know it is there, though, and just love > to play in the dirt and grime... :-) How easy is it in NEXTSTEP to add functionality. This is not an attempt to get at NEXTSTEP, I do actually know. This is a real question. On the Mac I can get any extension or control panel, toss it in the system folder, i get the dialoge that it needs to go in the appropriate folder, and so i click yes, and it put's it there. If I want it out: if it was an extension, go to HD, go to system folder, go to Extensions, drag the file to trash. If it is a Control Panel, do the same but go to the Control Panels folder rather than the Extension folder. If I have a NEXTSTEP extention (do they have them?), or a NEXTSTEP equivilant, what directory do i put it in? /usr? /etc? or is there a /extensions? Well? Ferret -- +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Sverre 'Ferret' Gunnersen | |e-mail: mailto:ferret@surf.net.au | |Melbourne, Australia | | "I like reality, It tastes of bread." -J. Aliyoueh | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 10 Jan 1997 13:32:12 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5b5gcs$92n@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21500 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52571 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178573 comp.sys.mac.system:191036 comp.sys.next.programmer removed from followups. On 01/10/97, Ferret wrote: > As someone else said, i like to put things where I want. Even in dumb > places. > Please point out where anyone said you could not do this in NEXTSTEP. If you can't, please can we move on from here, and would you please stop spreading disinformation. (Inference: you can put apps wherever you like. Even in dumb places.) Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!news-stkh.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!imaginet.fr!cyber59.montpellier.imaginet.fr!user From: logi27@imaginet.fr (Logi27 Development Team) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:17:22 +0100 Organization: LOGI 27 Lines: 37 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cyber59.montpellier.imaginet.fr X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b4 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11010 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3495 comp.sys.next.programmer:21501 In article <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com>, Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, > aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > > Multiple inheritance is not directly supported in Objective-C, a > >situation that many feel is an advantage, but some may miss. Multiple > >inheritance can be simulated using Objective-C's ability to forward > >unimplemented messages to another object which can provide the functionality > >that multiple inheritance might provide. I don't think most programmers feel > >that the lack of true multiple inheritance is a problem. > > [Lots of great information in this thread! Lovin' it!] > > This is an interesting way to implement multiple inheritance. I guess > this approach must mean that 'multiple inheritance' in Objective C is > limited to only one base class and one 'proxy' class - is that correct? > > Can this occur multiple times in the hierarchy? That is, if class A2 > derives from class A1 can A2 forward to B2 and A1 forward to B1? > > What is the overhead runtime cost of this approach? > > Curious minds want to know, > Mike R. > MacApp Engineering What's the future of MacApp at Apple ? at the last European Developper Forum at London in November 1996 it was said that one issue for MacApp was to become CrossPlatform. But the last Announce from Apple concerning the OS is new shock for MacApp isn't it ? a+ Paul Plaquette #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Librarian replacement Date: 10 Jan 1997 14:18:42 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52583 comp.sys.next.programmer:21502 One of the really useful apps that's always shipped with NS is Librarian. Now, as I understand it, it'll be difficult to port to the new OS since it's dependent on the defunct IndexingKit? So, we may need a replacement? Fortunately the IR world has advanced substantially since Librarian was developed, so I wondered, would it be possible to wrap a GUI around Glimpse or somesuch? Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 15:26:11 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5b5n2j$9e8@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> <32D6499E.1017@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: ferret@surf.net.au Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21503 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52597 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178606 comp.sys.mac.system:191059 In <32D6499E.1017@surf.net.au> Ferret wrote: > If I have a NEXTSTEP extention (do they have them?), or a NEXTSTEP > equivilant, what directory do i put it in? /usr? /etc? or is there a > /extensions? > > Well? > Ferret > First, by default, UNIX directories are hidden in the file viewer. Second, in a networked environment, security is essential. Third, in order to preserve security, users should not log in with root privileges. Fourth, without root privileges, you can not mess with stuff in UNIX directories even if you want to. Specifically regarding extensions: There are two types of extensions. Some add "system" services such as device drivers or additional networking and file system protocols. Others are just "utility" services such as automatic conversion of file types, adding a banner to print requests, workspace extender's, dock replacements, screen savers, etc. "system" extensions can be installed by a novice only if the installing program is VERY clever because a botched "system" extension can/will crash the system. Generally, only competent individuals should even attempt to install "system" services. (most users should wait for the next system release) "system" extensions will generally go in /usr or /etc or /lib directories. "utility" services are owned by individual users and can be installed by individual users. The worst thing a buggy "utility" service can do is mess up an individual's environment. Perhaps there is a central problem - that MAC users asking questions do not understand the issues surrounding multi-user network operating systems. I am not criticizing Ferret, I am just wondering if using NeXtstep for a little while would clear up all of these questions and stop the worrying. In my extensive experience, extremely novice MAC users have felt comfortable in NeXTstep. I have routinely failed to tell them that they are using UNIX and I am sure most never suspect. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!fdn.fr!r2d2.fdn.org!free.fdn.fr!news From: Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Message-ID: Sender: news@free.fdn.fr Organization: Fabien Roy Consultant. X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:05:25 GMT Lines: 29 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21504 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52598 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178608 comp.sys.mac.system:191060 As a programmer, I rely on the presence of /bin /usr/bin etc... stuff. I prefer to do this: system("df -i /Disk|grep dev > /tmp/df.result"); than to rewrite the df code. Then I can proceed the /tmp/df.result file to see how many inodes used/free on the local disk thus avoiding the "out of inodes" message. Stripping those UNIX tools would make developing software much more difficult. Excerpt from the man df: DF(1) UNIX Programmer's Manual DF(1) NAME df - report free disk space on file systems SYNOPSIS df [ -i ] [ filesystem ... ] [ file ... ] [ -t type ] [ filesystem ... ] [ filename ... ] CIAO. -- Fabien Roy --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted) Fabien Roy Consultant NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA 10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23 Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90 GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!catlan.met.fu-berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: thomas@catlan.met.FU-Berlin.DE (Thomas Hensel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: HELP: Maximum Memory for NS3.3 Intel Date: 10 Jan 1997 16:12:39 GMT Organization: Freie Universitaet Berlin Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5b5ppn$jpn@fu-berlin.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: catlan.met.fu-berlin.de (160.45.74.163) X-Access: 16 17 19 X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) What is the maximum memory size for Intel based NextStep-Systems ??? NextAnswers 1002: (Intel) RAM requirements vary depending upon your selection of graphics adapter and imaging model. NextAnswers 1843, 1844 (HP, Sparc) RAM requirements vary depending upon the user's selection of graphics adapter. NEXTSTEP Release 3.3 supports a maximum of 256MB of memory. If it is true, that for Intel systems only 256 MB are supported, how can I change this ? Are there Kernel-Patches ? Thanks in advance, Thomas -- || Who: Dipl. Phys. Thomas Hensel MIKS - Meteorologische Informations- || EMail: thomas@bibo.met.FU-Berlin.DE und Kommunikations-Systeme || Voice: (+49 30) 838 71 225 an der Freien Universitaet Berlin || FAX: (+49 30) 791 90 02 Schmidt-Ott-Str. 13 - 12165 Berlin #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!dcn131.dcn.davis.ca.us!user From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 08:11:54 -0800 Organization: Bridge Family Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> <32D6499E.1017@surf.net.au> <5b5n2j$9e8@castor.cca.rockwell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dcn131.dcn.davis.ca.us X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21506 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52602 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178612 comp.sys.mac.system:191064 In article <5b5n2j$9e8@castor.cca.rockwell.com>, embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote: > Specifically regarding extensions: > > There are two types of extensions. Some add "system" services such as device > drivers or additional networking and file system protocols. Others are just > "utility" services such as automatic conversion of file types, adding a > banner to print requests, workspace extender's, dock replacements, screen > savers, etc. > > "system" extensions can be installed by a novice only if the installing > program is VERY clever because a botched "system" extension can/will crash > the system. Generally, only competent individuals should even attempt to > install "system" services. (most users should wait for the next system > release) "system" extensions will generally go in /usr or /etc or /lib > directories. > Having NO experience with NeXT at all I'm wondering about the nature of extensions that fall in this catagory. For a Mac user you drag something to System Folder, drop it, and it gets put where it belongs. End of installation for Extensions. The idea there's something that requires heroic knowledge for installation isn't comforting. But, I suppose, a good installer would take care of this. > "utility" services are owned by individual users and can be installed by > individual users. The worst thing a buggy "utility" service can do is mess > up an individual's environment. > Another place where I'd like an example of what sort of things are being added by these extensions. > Perhaps there is a central problem - that MAC users asking questions do not > understand the issues surrounding multi-user network operating systems. I > am not criticizing Ferret, I am just wondering if using NeXtstep for a little > while would clear up all of these questions and stop the worrying. > > In my extensive experience, extremely novice MAC users have felt comfortable > in NeXTstep. I have routinely failed to tell them that they are using UNIX > and I am sure most never suspect. > Many Mac users use a very simple peer-to-peer file sharing built into their machines which does allow/deny access to volumes, folders, or files. It's easy and it works. It doesn't have access control lists, etc. which I recognize in an enterprise enviornment are essential. It's an issue of ease-of-use -- these machines are used by everyone, from home users to college wizards, and the user interface has to bow to the lowest common denominator in terms of ease of us. Adam #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 10 Jan 97 10:24:27 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <5b42oo$ebp@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-21.access.one.net In-reply-to: don@globalobjects.com's message of 10 Jan 1997 00:33:28 GMT In article <5b42oo$ebp@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) writes: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: > AFAIK, DPS does use the floating-point hardware in whatever CPU > it's running on. That is correct. In fact, when NEXTSTEP was ported from m68k to x86 architectures, one of the disappointments was the the graphics speeds weren't much better. When you sit down to analyze why this is, there are two reasons: (1) Bus architectures. NeXT had local bus video <...> (2) When you compare x86 and m68k series, you find that Motorola's FP performance is better than that of an equivalent Intel CPU. <...> So you can count on DPS to take full advantage of the FPU! In fact, the FPU and the graphics bus speeds are far more important to DPS than the integer math speed of the CPU. And don't forget memory! DPS vs older windowing systems is somewhat like Unix versus "PC operating systems" in that it's _not_ heavily optimized to be a memory miser. Just like with older printers, this was somewhat of a problem - not so long ago, a 4M printer was considered somewhat insane, nowadays there's really no point to putting less than 4M in a printer. Today, we're getting to the point that it's silly to even think of buying a new machine with 16M of ram versus 32M. The $70 you saved would end up being _very_ expensive in the long run. One very visible area where this shows up is in backing store. DPS spends memory to keep backing stores for each window, which really _is_ silly if your machine isn't powerful enough to keep more than one or two apps in the air at a time. But when you're running five or six apps at once, it's utility becomes apparent. When you move a window, instead of five or six apps competing for the CPU to redraw tiny portions of their windows, you have _one_ app, the DPS windowserver, which handles it all. These days implementation decisions like that are starting to look almost prophetic. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!shelob.afs.com!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <587851299369@digifix.com> Date: 10 Jan 1997 16:42:13 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 347 Approved: sanguish@digifix.com Message-ID: <475852914532@digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com X-Mailer: Perl5 Mail::Internet v1.23 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52616 comp.sys.next.announce:4006 comp.sys.next.hardware:26560 comp.sys.next.software:27302 comp.sys.next.misc:24551 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:24846 comp.sys.next.bugs:4155 comp.sys.next.programmer:21508 Topics include: Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site eduSTEP WWW site NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site comp.sys.next newsgroups related newsgroups comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list ftp sites NeXTanswers Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site =============================================== This online community resource includes - ISV company pages - ISV product descriptions - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages - Mailing List archives and information You can connect via the world wide web at: http://www.stepwise.com/ Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com If you would like to get your company and product information on Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com. eduSTEP WWW site ================ http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/ eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on: - NextStep tools and projects for scientists. - Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist). - A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with customers in the educational community. - Conferences, meetings, workshops - Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a NextStep scientific work environment - Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation of OpenStep now being developed NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site ============================ http://www.next.com comp.sys.next.* newsgroups ========================== news:comp.sys.next.advocacy This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. news:comp.sys.next.announce Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Archives are available by ftp at ftp://ftp.stepwise.com/pub/Next_Announce_Archives Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. news:comp.sys.next.bugs A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well. news:comp.sys.next.hardware Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. news:comp.sys.next.marketplace NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. news:comp.sys.next.misc For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! news:comp.sys.next.programmer Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. news:comp.sys.next.software This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. Related Newsgroups ================== news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. news:comp.lang.objective-c Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. news:comp.object Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com The ftp sites ============= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org - The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de: - (Peanuts) Located in Germany. ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next - Peanuts mirror in the US ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: - See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com ) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Librarian replacement Date: 10 Jan 1997 17:04:41 GMT Organization: NO ORGANIZATION, INC. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5b5sr9$ad1@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: m.crawford@shef.ac.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52618 comp.sys.next.programmer:21509 In <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote: > One of the really useful apps that's always shipped with NS is Librarian. > Now, as I understand it, it'll be difficult to port to the new OS since it's > dependent on the defunct IndexingKit? > > So, we may need a replacement? Fortunately the IR world has advanced > substantially since Librarian was developed, so I wondered, would it be > possible to wrap a GUI around Glimpse or somesuch? > My Datacase.app (see my home page) is a wrapper around FreeWAIS. I use it daily but on the downside - the indexing mechanism is slow (update takes a few 10 seconds... ok it runs in the background) - the index files are quite large - there is no support for RTF or RTFDs yet, you have to use plain text files (it is a matter of writing a RTF/RTFD input filter for waisindex) and on the upside - the search engine has the potential to work on multiplatfroms network wide (it's WAIS....) - it does a very fast search - it does not use the indexing kit at all :-) It should be trivial to use glimpse instead of freewais. -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!new-news.cc.brandeis.edu!xray From: xray@cs.brandeis.edu (Nathan G. Raymond) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Developing for MacOS and Be now, MacSTEP in the future (question) Date: 10 Jan 1997 18:33:10 GMT Organization: Default Usenet Organization Lines: 12 Distribution: brandeis Message-ID: <5b6216$kk6@new-news.cc.brandeis.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: opal.cs.brandeis.edu Summary: C++ and Objective C, how well do they jive? Keywords: MacOS, BeOS, NeXTSTEP X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #3 I'm in the planning stages of developing an application for simultaneous deployment on both MacOS (System 7) and BeOS. Development will be with Metrowerks in C++. I have no experience with Objective C, how can I make the code forward compatible with, or at least easily portable to, the forthcoming MacSTEP (Apple's NeXTSTEP)? Are there any specific design pitfalls I should avoid? Paradigms I should strive for? Can I expect there to be tools available at a later date to ease the transition? -- Nathan Raymond xray@cs.brandeis.edu raymond@binah.cc.brandeis.edu http://www.cs.brandeis.edu/~xray #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Librarian replacement Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:11:24 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <32D6864C.5DE6@steeldriving.com> References: <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: jon@steeldriving.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52647 comp.sys.next.programmer:21511 mmalcolm crawford wrote: > > One of the really useful apps that's always shipped with NS is Librarian. > Now, as I understand it, it'll be difficult to port to the new OS since it's > dependent on the defunct IndexingKit? > > So, we may need a replacement? Fortunately the IR world has advanced > substantially since Librarian was developed, so I wondered, would it be > possible to wrap a GUI around Glimpse or somesuch? Doesn't the new 4.0 Project Builder perform some sort of indexing? Does that use parts of the Indexing Kit? If so, porting it might not be a problem. Apple has some sort of searching tool called V-Twin. I don't know if it uses index files or not, but it might be a suitable replacement for the Indexing Kit's engine. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 10 Jan 1997 19:00:55 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5b63l7$s80@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21512 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52649 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178672 comp.sys.mac.system:191103 Followups trimmed to advocacy groups. On 01/10/97, Adam Bridge wrote: > In my opinion, if Apple is to succeed, they MUST maintain that distance > between the OS and the user interface. I don't care if it's UNIX under > the hood or OpenVMS or BeOS, I want the machine to work, not crash, and > present a consistant and relatively familier user-interface. If there's > more there, it's okay, as long as I'm NEVER required to make use of it. > Which means I can install applications ANYWHERE I want on my system, > including dumb places. Having the OS system in a more rigorously defined > location is okay -- but I shouldn't have to manipulate what's there > directly through some arcane set of UNIX commands designed back in the > days when ASR33 teletypes were the state of the art. > OK. So in what way does NEXTSTEP as it currently ships, let alone before AppLE improves it, fail to meet your needs? Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 19:10:51 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 57 Message-ID: <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21513 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52650 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178673 comp.sys.mac.system:191104 Ferret wrote: > Well, um. The thing is, I dont want to be 'forced' into putting apps in > the apps folder. All of my real apps are in the apps folder already. But > temp apps, say resedit, I am only leaving there for an hour or so. I > dont want to have to go thru the apps folder to get to it. I put in my > disk, copy res edit to the desktop. Use it, throw it in the trash. > > As someone else said, i like to put things where I want. Even in dumb > places. You can _run_ a NEXTSTEP app from anywhere in the file system. If you don't put the app in a folder that is in the "application search path", then the WorkSpace doesn't know that the app is available to open files of whatever type the app can open. And if it offers services, then you can't use those services. But I open up apps in /tmp to run and test them from there all the time, for example. When you are developing an app, you run it (to test it) from the project folder; you don't have to move it to any of the app folders. To explain the above, the application search path is a list of folders that tells the WorkSpace where it should look to find applications. When it is creating its list of filetypes, icons, and applications that open them, it only looks in the folders listed in the application search path. This is also true for apps which provide services. Note that if you have a lot of apps, this slows down the login process, since WorkSpace scans the application search path every time you log in. To solve the login problem, a lot of sites have /LocalApps for apps which define file types and services and /OtherApps (which is _not_ in the application search path) for the remaining apps. This speeds login and isn't too confusing (though IMHO is isn't all that user friendly, but that's the sysadmin's choice). Finally, what folders are in the application search path? /LocalApps /NextApps /NextDeveloper/Apps/ /NextDeveloper/Demos/ ~/Apps (the folder "Apps" within your home directory) And yes, you can add folders to this list or remove them as you wish. It is more structured than what the Mac offers, but it is still very flexible. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!newshost.uwo.ca!anise.irus.rri.uwo.ca!user From: gchapman@irus.rri.uwo.ca (Greg Chapman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games Subject: Re: SX Tracker Defect Tracking System Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 13:17:49 -0500 Organization: John P. Robarts Research Institute Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5b46dp$etc@news.mitec.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: anise.irus.rri.uwo.ca X-Homepage-URL: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20170 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10558 comp.sys.newton.programmer:16231 comp.sys.next.programmer:21514 comp.unix.programmer:45688 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5083 In article <5b46dp$etc@news.mitec.net>, andrews@stormx.com (Andrew Stelmaszek) wrote: > Come to our Web Site and download a free trial of our > Defect and Program Enhancement tracking system for Win > 95/NT. What does this POSSIBLY have to do with most of the newsgroups you posted to? Are you soft in the head? -- Greg Chapman Mac Developer - Robarts Research Institute Imaging Research Labs --- "You! Out of the gene pool!" #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 19:20:48 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5b64qg$s70@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> <32D6499E.1017@surf.net.au> <5b5n2j$9e8@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21515 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52655 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178677 comp.sys.mac.system:191107 abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) wrote: > [...]. For a Mac user you drag something > to System Folder, drop it, and it gets put where it belongs. End of > installation for Extensions. The idea there's something that requires > heroic knowledge for installation isn't comforting. But, I suppose, a > good installer would take care of this. Practically every commercial software package (and a large number of freeware and shareware packages as well) are distributed as a ".pkg" file. To install, double click the file and the Installer.app will open it and give you a panel with info about the package (size, what it is, icon, etc.). Click the "Install button". You may be asked where you'd like to install the package (with a default given for the "typical installation"). If the package _must_ be installed to a particular place (UNIIX sometimes requires that) you won't be given the option. Then, you'll be asked to pick which architectures you wish to install, the default being only the architecture of the machine you're using. If you want to install for other architectures, though, you add them to the selections. (I do because I have m68k and x86 hardware running NEXTSTEP, for example.) After that, you get a little progress bar and the installation happens. (Some packages may ask for other information, too, but that is rare.) It is extremely easy to install and it is very nearly foolproof, especially if you just pick all the defaults. I don't think too many folks will find this onerous--and Apple may come out with something even better for Rhapsody. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!news.izzy.net!inet-prime.comshare.com!not-for-mail From: alanf@izzy.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Librarian replacement Date: 10 Jan 1997 20:37:13 GMT Organization: "Comshare, Inc." Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5b699p$req$3@inet-prime.comshare.com> References: <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: alanf@izzy.net NNTP-Posting-Host: blackbird.comshare.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) Cc: m.crawford@shef.ac.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52660 comp.sys.next.programmer:21516 In <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> mmalcolm crawford wrote: > One of the really useful apps that's always shipped with NS is Librarian. > Now, as I understand it, it'll be difficult to port to the new OS since it's > dependent on the defunct IndexingKit? > > So, we may need a replacement? Fortunately the IR world has advanced > substantially since Librarian was developed, so I wondered, would it be > possible to wrap a GUI around Glimpse or somesuch? > > Best wishes, > > mmalc. > > What about expanding Librarian to be the Help System as well? Balloon help would be part of the app, but context sensitive help events would launch the Librarian (if it wasn't already running), and open the applications help "book", going to the appropriate location. It could serve as both a Help System and a general purpose clipping/cutting repository utility. Regards, Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:15:07 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21517 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52661 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178687 comp.sys.mac.system:191121 In article <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu>, shimpei@argo.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita) wrote: > If you hate Unix so much, Nextstep is constructed such that you don't > have to use any of them, and you don't have to see any of them unless > you go hunting for them. Great! It's not that I hate Unix, I just don't need it on my desktop machine and don't want it takin up space from all my games. ;-) > The little Unix files in /bin, /etc and whatever are no different if > you don't know or like Unix. The problem is that I believe this will lead to dependance on them, and let's face it, a lot of what's in there is not all that great code. > I completely disagree about the laziness issue. Maybe it's true for > commercial-grade programs, because using external routines often > introduces big speed penalties. On the other hand, people who often > write short programs or scripts (the same folks who have embraced > AppleScript) will benefit a lot from having a complete set of > file-manipulation utilities lying around. For those types of > applications, development time is much more important than the speed > of the final solution. Yes, but the quality of these applications varies, some is passable, lots os terrible. rm doesn't even ask you to confirm, let alone allow you to rescue the items. It's not lazy coders that's the problem, it's the code that exists from years ago that is. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:17:56 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21518 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52662 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178688 comp.sys.mac.system:191122 In article <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > Man pages are already installed from a seperate package. You have > to want them to get them. Well that's my point exactly. > You don't want to throw out the /usr/adm stuff, since the logs in > there are the first thing a support person would want to look at to > determine what is wrong with a system. But that could just as easily be a folder called Log Files or some such. If we can do this without changing anything, great. > I really think the UNIX Expert preference is all the hiding Apple > needs to do--and is all they should do. You should have a least > common denominator that all app developers can count on, and it is > important to not take away functionality in the system. You might > not use it directly yourself, but the GUI Apps you do use directly > will rely upon it. Well if it's indeed this easy, then I'm happy. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:19:28 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b4b90$9u8@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21519 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52664 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178690 comp.sys.mac.system:191123 In article <5b4b90$9u8@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > Hopefully, all readers of this group understand that a system with an 80 > MB system disk isn't going to have the other resources necessary to run > Rhapsody (how much RAM does her system have?) 8 meg. > This system will continue to > work fine with the various System 7 upgrades and isn't a system that Apple > has targeted for Rhapsody. Exactly the problem. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:20:48 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21520 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52665 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178692 comp.sys.mac.system:191129 In article <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > You apparently aren't a programmer. There are gobs of well-written > utilities around And most of them aren't standard parts of Unix, who's standard parts vary widely from Unix release to release, and vary in quality from passable to horrid. These are the exact items I'm talking about. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:22:16 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21521 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52666 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178693 comp.sys.mac.system:191130 In article , mckinnon@tezcat.com (Chuck McKinnon) wrote: > Just go the next step (pun intended) and make the Applications folder > the required place for .apps and make the system treat it as such. This > would make even more sense for new/consumer user: it makes sense. > All apps go in the Applications folder, [duh!] and the new system will > get what it need. > > Or is this too simple? Too inflexible anyway. I like putting my apps where I like them, I have a number of drag and drop ones on my desktop for instance. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:23:02 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b4apm$al2@usenet.rpi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21522 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52668 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178695 comp.sys.mac.system:191131 In article <5b4apm$al2@usenet.rpi.edu>, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > Your mother has a PowerMac with an 80-meg disk? Mac II with a math-pro (my old machine). Yeah I know it's not going to run on it, that's my *complaint*. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: Eren_Kotan@next.com (Eren Kotan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 10 Jan 1997 21:52:56 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 40 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com> References: Reply-To: Eren_Kotan@next.com NNTP-Posting-Host: demoroom.next.com Hi all, just a couple of things I'd like to add to two posts on this thread: Ian Stephenson writes > Reason: Objective C is REALLY EASY. Amen to that. I'll go further and say that it only takes one day for you to learn Objective C if you are already familiar with OO design issues and an alternative OO language like C++ or Smalltalk. How can I be so certain? Because I recently was on a training course with an experienced C++ developer who had never used Objective C before. By the end of the 1st day, he was competent. By the end of the course (four days later) he was very much smitten by Objective C, though he still thought C++ was handy in a few respects. Tom Hageman writes: > id array = @(@"aap", @"noot", @"mies"); // test @(..., ...) This syntax is currently supported only in WebScript (for our WebObjects product) as a shortcut to creating NSArrays. It would fail when used from an OPENSTEP app, as you found out. In OPENSTEP, you still have to use a class "convenience method" as a shortcut to creating arrays, ie. id myArray = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@"One", @"Two", @"Three", nil]; Still, this is pretty straightforward, anyway, right? Regards, Eren -- Eren Kotan - NeXT Software (UK) Limited oh, one moment, it's Apple now The best friend money can buy ObjectLine Support E-mail: Eren_Kotan@next.com - WWW: http://www.next.com/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!news.ucsc.edu!alvin From: alvin@cse.ucsc.edu (Alvin Jee) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Encryption Date: 10 Jan 1997 20:20:07 GMT Organization: UC Santa Cruz CIS/CE Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5b689n$b2m@darkstar.ucsc.edu> References: <5b37rh$ss5@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ren.cse.ucsc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52687 comp.sys.next.programmer:21524 In article <5b37rh$ss5@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>, wrote: > NEXT promised encryption with NEXTSTEP 3.0, but had to relent due to >federal export restrictions. Nonetheless, they shipped NS 3.x with a nice >interface for encrypted email, and you can load a publicly available PGP >bundle which dynamically binds with that interface. (You've got to love an Yes, but you can only send encrypted NeXTmail around. The current bundle doesn't support a MIME format (yet?). > Moreover, NEXT owns a patent on Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE) - a >cryptosystem which, according to reported hints from Steve Jobs, the NSA >regards as more secure than PGP. (The NSA was rumored to be one of NEXT's >larger customers ...) Hmm. I did remember seeing quite a few NeXTSTEP boxes around the last time I was in one of their buildings. Then again, I also saw a few OS/2 boxes laying around. My suggesstion is to enhance the CryptorBundle to spit out MIME mail also. -- Alvin Jee alvin@neander.com http://www.neander.com NeXTMail gleefully accepted! #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!noris.net!shinto!news From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) Subject: Re: Encryption Message-ID: Sender: news@shinto.nbg.sub.org X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next/Images/People/tomi.shinto.nbg.sub.org.tiff Organization: STEPeople's home (A NUGI member) X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <5b37rh$ss5@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:48:23 GMT Lines: 52 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52689 comp.sys.next.programmer:21525 jdevlin@umich.edu wrote: > > Moreover, NEXT owns a patent on Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE) - a > cryptosystem which, according to reported hints from Steve Jobs, the NSA > regards as more secure than PGP. (The NSA was rumored to be one of NEXT's > larger customers ...) I am not sure if NeXT owns the patent or NeXTs mathematics guru...Richard Crandall (hey..maybe he's one of the reasons why Mathematica has always remained available for NeXTSTEP). Side Note: Elliptic Encryption can provide more unique keys with shorter key length the public key systems based on primes. Richard found a way to remove all divisions in the EE encryption and could replace the with simple plus and mius operations. Thuse it is called FEE. FEE is more secure then PGP since it can take a 40bit key and will cause the same amount of "cracking" headache as a 120bit PGP (ok..these numbers are wrong I would have to look them up...but you get the idea) At ObejctWorld'95 NeXT officially said that they will provide an encrption API with release 4.0. We all know they didn't. And we all know that encryption is a hairy issues in some countries (e.g. US, France) > > SUGGESTION: Apple should include a documented interface for encryption > in both Mail.app and WorkspaceManager, and allow customers to load their > favorite cryptographic engine as a bundle. This IMHO was planned and hopefully will be deliverd. > Moreover, Apple should follow > MIT's example and make a FEE bundle available on their website to anyone in > the United States and make the Objective-C implementation of the algorithm > available without restriction as an ascii file. Between FEE and PGP, This is unlikely since the implementation is something they can sell (to NSA for example) As far as I know the algorithm is described in some paper by Richard Crandall..but I am not sure if all the details of the implementation are available. But then..if it is patented you would not be allowed to implement it. > virtually everyone would have access to military grade encryption with a > consistent and well thought out GUI. This is why I won't happen :-) Governments are afraid of encryption and still hope that people will remain dumb enough to believe the claim that encryption prohibition is just to keep the "bad guys" from using it. "Bad guys" don't care if it is prohibited. Its the "good guys" who are the target. Aloha Tomi #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!wolverine.hq.cic.net!chi-news.cic.net!news.uiowa.edu!news From: clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 10 Jan 1997 20:36:45 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 113 Message-ID: <5b698t$qsa@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11012 comp.sys.next.programmer:21526 From article <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com>, by don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman): > jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote: >> [ C++ ] ... in the hands of a skilled engineer it's a powerful >> and effective tool. > > Wow. This is amazing. And he really believes what he's saying! And it is true. You say so yourself with your closing statements: > As I sign off, I will say that a good design is paramount, no matter > which language you choose. A lot of Objective C projects have > failed, too, because of that. I _strongly_ suggest Bruce Webster's Design is absolutely the most important thing. If don't have a good one, it doesn't matter how you express it. > * That picky C++ compiler means I can hire twice as many programmers > and take twice as long to get it written. And even then it probably > won't work right anyway. So much for stamping the bugs early on. That picky compiler isn't just blowing smoke. The type system of C++ was well-thought out, and has grown stronger with standardization. An error is an error. > * My resulting app will be much larger because of unnecessary code > bloat caused by lack of dynamism. The design will bloat as well, > as I work around language deficiencies. [To do effective GUI work Here is the cause of your problems: C++ is not Smalltalk. C++ does does not share it's object model like Objective-C does. If you can only "think" in goto's, all of the abstraction compabilities of C, Pascal, ... matter not. If you can only think without types, then strong typing is definitely going to get in the way. > you need to have a certain amount of dynamism. In C++, this means > you re-invent your own mini runtime each time. Think virtual. If it can't be done with virtual member functions, then think dynamic_cast. If it still can't be done, think type_info. Each is is small, additional layer over C, so you pay for what you use. If you need more dynamism, and a great many problems do not, C++ is a poor choice. > * The C++ _may_ run a little faster, since I don't have the overhead > of the runtime--but not as much as you'd think because of that code > bloat and the less-than-optimal design the compiler's pickiness forces > me to use. Code bloat in C++ does not usually refer to "extra" instructions created because of run-time binding, which are truly minimal. It refers to the inlining of non-trivial template definitions. This is not a C++ problem, but a compiler implementation one. On the Mac (at least), there are manual ways to control this. I think rewriting the Stepanov Benchmark would be an interesting test. It provides a measure of the "abstraction penalty" for language features. Good optimizing C++ compilers have remarkably low penalities, even for advanced features. I would think Objective-C would fall in the same category as (Typed) Smalltalk. > * C++ has all these nifty features (syntactic sugar) that I can use > to increase my productivity. Too bad that the next guy that comes > along--to maintain my code--can't figure out what the hell I did. > Most Objective-C code is very nearly self documenting. A good rule of thumb for overloading is overload only when extending existing behavior. If you are designing a fixed point arithmetic library, what could possibly be more self-documenting than FixedPoint f1, f2, f3; ... f1 = f2 * f3; // extends * (multiplication) for fix point numbers ? Other uses are no different than poor name selection. If another programmer defines FPMFPFP(), how are you suppose to know it means "multiply a fixed point by a fixed point producing a fixed point"? > Plus, how many syntax elements does C++ add to C? Has anyone ever > sat down and counted? Compare Objective-C's number--I think it is > in the _teens_. So which is going to be easier to debug? Consider the role of C++. First, the user community of C++ is considerably larger than any other language but C, as well as its area of application. This means features need to support many, varied problem domains, and still maintain the efficency and conciseness. Second, I know of no other language in which the user community played such a large role in standardization, mostly through the rise of the Internet. Just about every C++ user thinks the language is too large, but no one wants to give anything up ("it's just too important to my work"), and many want just 1 more feature added (or two). Heck, even you do - a more dynamic notion of types. Third, C compatibility requirements can be quite restrictive, yet few would give this up even today. Without it, the adoption rate of C++ would most likely be that of Objective-C's. > And I could keep going...but I think my bias is obvious. Why? I've > used both and I _know_ which one works better. > > As a final point, which OO environment has faster execution speed on > like hardware and is more time tested and proven: NEXTSTEP or > Taligent? While such a comparison is meaningless, why didn't you pick BeOS for representative C++ system? According to MacWorld, almost everything is implemented in C++ and most users consider it very, very fast. Those who don't consider very, very fast, consider it just very fast. > As I sign off, I will say that a good design is paramount, no matter > which language you choose. Amen. -mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:43:25 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32D6B7FD.3D460A1B@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b4apm$al2@usenet.rpi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21527 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52693 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178722 comp.sys.mac.system:191160 Maury Markowitz wrote: > Garance A Drosehn wrote: > > > > Your mother has a PowerMac with an 80-meg disk? > > Mac II with a math-pro (my old machine). Yeah I know it's > not going to run on it, that's my *complaint*. Even if the Copeland project was saved by the hand of God it still wouldn't run on that hardware either. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-angers.fr!univ-rennes1.fr!news.emn.fr!newsmaster From: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Time and multiThreading Date: 14 Jan 1997 12:37:11 GMT Organization: Ecole des Mines de Nantes Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bfuln$aif@wfn.emn.fr> Reply-To: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr NNTP-Posting-Host: buzz.info.emn.fr Hi, Is there someone who can explain me how the user time and the system time of a thread are calculated by the thread_info function ? For the very same process running in a thread, the user time at the end of the execution is never exactly the same. The first step is maybe to have a definition of what are the user time and the system time ! Any clue ? I use NEXTSTEP 3.3 (SPARC) and the MiscThreadedObject class of the MiscKit. Laurent. -- ======================================================= Laurent Champciaux Departement Informatique - Ecole des Mines de Nantes 4, rue A.Kastler - BP 20722 - 44307 Nantes Cedex 03 Tel: 33 2 51 85 82 18 (B220) email: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr WWW: http://www.emn.fr/dept_info/perso/laurent/ #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!news.goldengate.net!not-for-mail From: mattj@invisix.com Subject: perl4 and libwww Message-ID: <1a7cd$142215.283@news.goldengate.net> Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 02:34:21 GMT X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Lines: 21 Hey there, I am interested in utilizing perl4 and libwww on my NS 3.2 station. Do I have to have the development option for 3.2 or can I get perl from somewhere (http://www.perl.com is down at the moment or something)...? I downloaded libwww for perl4 which should just work with it, as it's just a bunch of scripts, I take it. Is perl4 pretty portable between unixes? I'm considering doing this project on NS 3.2 or SGI Irix 5.3, which if I decide to change in the middle will my scripts work on the other machine? Thanks alot for the info, getting into some stuff I've never done before so I need a little help from you programming wizards out there....! -- MATT | mailto:mattj@invisix.com NeXTMail Ok jurcich | http://www.invisix.com Silicon Graphics Personal Iris 4D/25G, 16MB, 800MB, 20", Irix 5.3 NeXTstation Turbo Color, 24MB, 250MB, NEC XP21, NEXTSTEP 3.2 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!surf.metro.net.au!news From: Ferret Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:24:18 +1000 Organization: n/a Lines: 36 Message-ID: <32D715F2.6D08@surf.net.au> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b5gcs$92n@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp203.surf.net.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) To: mmalcolm crawford Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21530 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52741 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178804 comp.sys.mac.system:191243 mmalcolm crawford wrote: > > comp.sys.next.programmer removed from followups. > > On 01/10/97, Ferret wrote: > > As someone else said, i like to put things where I want. Even in dumb > > places. > > > Please point out where anyone said you could not do this in NEXTSTEP. > If you can't, please can we move on from here, and would you please stop > spreading disinformation. > > (Inference: you can put apps wherever you like. Even in dumb places.) Ok, if you can put apps on the desktop then fine. But the reason I sai#################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 11 Jan 1997 02:18:12 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5b6t94$nk@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21535 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52770 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178857 comp.sys.mac.system:191292 nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote: > > You apparently aren't a programmer. There are gobs of well-written > utilities around, and it's utterly senseless to rewrite them from > scratch, especially considering that they have already gone > through extensive testing/debugging cycles. Well, I wouldn't go too far praising the wonderfulness of the code in most unix utilities. A fair number of them are hacks thrown quickly together, which have been good enough that no one bothered to rewrite them (until GNU came along...). --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Librarian replacement Date: 11 Jan 1997 02:04:04 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5b6sek$nk@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b699p$req$3@inet-prime.comshare.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52771 comp.sys.next.programmer:21536 alanf@izzy.net wrote: > mmalcolm crawford wrote: > > So, we may need a replacement? Fortunately the IR world has > > advanced substantially since Librarian was developed, so I > > wondered, would it be possible to wrap a GUI around Glimpse or > > somesuch? > > What about expanding Librarian to be the Help System as well? > Balloon help would be part of the app, but context sensitive help > events would launch the Librarian (if it wasn't already running), > and open the applications help "book", going to the appropriate > location. It could serve as both a Help System and a general > purpose clipping/cutting repository utility. I think that this is one of those examples where Apple already has the technology for this area. I see little reason for Apple to rewrite the indexing kit when they've already got V-twin. And the help facilities on the Mac are nicer (in my opinion) than most anything that's been done on NeXTSTEP, with the exception of the customized help system that Scott Hess used to have in Stuart and TickleServices. Now, let me hasten to add that I think the indexing kit would be good for other purposes, and I hope to see a revitalized version reappear as part of the MiscKit. However, I don't think Apple needs to spend time on it. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 11 Jan 1997 02:16:11 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5b6t5b$nk@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b4b90$9u8@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21537 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52773 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178859 comp.sys.mac.system:191293 aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > Hopefully, all readers of this group understand that a system > with an 80 MB system disk isn't going to have the other resources > necessary to run Rhapsody (how much RAM does her system have?). > This system will continue to work fine with the various System > 7 upgrades and isn't a system that Apple has targeted for Rhapsody. Actually, I'm not all that sure that system 7.6 (with all it's goodies, such as OpenDoc) will be particularly comfortable on an 80meg disk either. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!newsfeed.pnl.gov!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!uw-coco!nwnews.wa.com!jesjones From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 22:19:40 -0800 Organization: Jet City Studios, Inc Lines: 92 Message-ID: References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blv-pm102-ip8.halcyon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11013 comp.sys.next.programmer:21538 In article <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > > > With C++ my productivity hits rock bottom, at least when compared > to what I can crank out in Objective C. And even with all the > type checking the compiler is doing for me, I find my code quality > is in the dumps with C++, as compared to Objective-C. Yeah, that > picky compiler keeps me busy all right. Bow down to the needs of > the compiler and satisfy its every whim. And what whims are we talking about? Requiring that the method exists for the object it's invoked on? Requiring that pointer assignments be between compatible types? Do you agree that it's better, as a general rule, to find errors as soon as possible? > I like Objective C becase it reduces clutter in the system's design > and is simply a better OO implementation (for reasons that have been > hashed out zillions of times before). I can see how a more dynamic language can lead to a simpler class design: I've made careful use of dynamic_cast in my C++ code and been pleased with the results. However I don't think this is worth sacrificing static type safety for. I want my code to be as solid and robust as possible. A language where an object may or may not be able to handle a method call seems like a giant step backward. I must have missed those zillion discussions of why Objective-C is a better OOPL than C++. Care to elaborate? > Let's face it: a large C++ project versus a large Objective-C > project, what are the differences? > > * That picky C++ compiler means I can hire twice as many programmers > and take twice as long to get it written. And even then it probably > won't work right anyway. So much for stamping the bugs early on. > The simplicity of Objective-C keeps most of those bugs from happening > in the first place, because it is easier to write! Besides, a good > design will, by nature, help reduce the bugs in the product. You > should never trust a compiler to make up for flaws in a bad design, > which is what I see far too many C++ programmers doing. (Not all are > that way, thank heavens, but in practice the "compiler will spot the > bugs" attitude often leads to this outcome.) As I said before simple to write doesn't mean a language is suitable for software engineering. BASIC makes it easy to bang out code, but very few would claim that it's suitable for large commercial quality projects. I would claim (and I know I'm not alone) that C is, at best, barely adequate for software engineering. C++ has added a lot to the language with most of the additions focused on making it easier to write large robust systems. What has Objective-C done to meet this goal? [snip] > * C++ has all these nifty features (syntactic sugar) that I can use > to increase my productivity. Too bad that the next guy that comes > along--to maintain my code--can't figure out what the hell I did. > Most Objective-C code is very nearly self documenting. The simpler > designs mean the maintenance guys can come in and quickly find and fix > problems. If there are any. You could argue that good and bad > programming styles affect this comparison--and yes they sure do--but > C++ promotes arcane usage and bad style because of its haphazard > design whereas Objective-C does a lot to help promote good design. > Plus, how many syntax elements does C++ add to C? Has anyone ever > sat down and counted? Compare Objective-C's number--I think it is > in the _teens_. So which is going to be easier to debug? C++ was not haphazardly designed and it doesn't "promote arcane usage and bad style". The worst C++ code is written by old time C hackers who don't grasp OOD and the evils of the preprocessor. Slamming C++ because its a big language is absurd: the language was written for professional developers who can relatively easily learn the mechanics of the language. There are valid criticisms of C++, but they're almost entirely due to backward compatibility with C. [snip] > As I sign off, I will say that a good design is paramount, no matter > which language you choose. A lot of Objective C projects have > failed, too, because of that. I _strongly_ suggest Bruce Webster's > book, "Pitfalls of Object Oriented Programming." That's the wise > voice of sad experience speaking there. May we all read and learn > from it and avoid those traps! I've read Webster's book. It was interesting in places, but I don't think I learned much. A much better book IMO is "Object Oriented Software Construction" by Bertand Meyer. In the book he discusses OOD and OOP from a software engineering perspective using Eiffel for his examples. The book is one of the classics in the field and should be read by anyone who cares about robust software. --Jesse #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.uwa.edu.au!hera.ee.uwa.edu.au!user From: ting@tartarus.uwa.edu.au (Tee Chuan Ng) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 12 Jan 1997 05:16:56 GMT Organization: Bayle Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sun6.ee.uwa.edu.au Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21539 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52785 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178888 comp.sys.mac.system:191344 In article <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: >You can _run_ a NEXTSTEP app from anywhere in the file system. > >If you don't put the app in a folder that is in the "application >search path", then the WorkSpace doesn't know that the app is >available to open files of whatever type the app can open. And >if it offers services, then you can't use those services. But >I open up apps in /tmp to run and test them from there all the >time, for example. Hmm ... so /app is one of the defaults in the $PATH variable? So does this mean that the OS will not be able to find apps which aren't in any of the directories listed in $PATH? If this is the case then "double clicking" a document created by an application not located in the search path wouldn't be possible and would be very un Mac-like - assuming that the document in question doesn't reside in the same directory as the application. Am I mistaken about this conclusion? Furthermore, is searching the path directories recursive? If this is the case then a solution to make NeXT more Mac like would be to add a / to the end of the search path list. Have fun, TC #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT on Mac 68040 Date: 14 Jan 1997 18:12:24 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5bgia8$r15@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5bd75k$36t@infa.central.susx.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 On 01/13/97, James B. Frazer wrote: > In article <5bd75k$36t@infa.central.susx.ac.uk>, matteos@cogs.susx.ac.uk > (Matteo Sartori) wrote: > > > Is NeXT available on Apple Macs or is it only NeXT hardware compatible ? > > Only on NeXT hardware. > Just to clarify -- NEXTSTEP does not run on 68040-based Macs. In addition to NeXT hardware, however, it also runs on Intel PCs and Sun SparcStations. Best wishes, mmalc. posn. research facilitator where institute for language speech and hearing sheffield university west court 2 mappin street sheffield s1 4dt england vox (+44) 114 282 5269 fax (+44) 114 278 0972 email m.crawford@dcs.shef.ac.uk NeXTMail, SunMail, MIME welcome PGP key available on request http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/research/ilash/ -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.ultranet.c#################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.glink.net.hk!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.63.63.70!nwnews.wa.com!brokaw.wa.com!jesjones From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:15:22 -0800 Organization: Jet City Studios, Inc Lines: 47 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> <5bb1j8$qb3@peng.ping.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: blv-pm108-ip5.halcyon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11015 comp.sys.next.programmer:21542 In article <5bb1j8$qb3@peng.ping.at>, hannes@ping.at (Hannes Tiefenbrunner) wrote: > In Jesse Jones wrote: > > ....snip.... > > Like Eiffel C++ was designed to make writing production quality code > > easier. A large part of this is static type checking which at compile time > > checks *all* your code for type mismatches. In a language with less static > > type checking you need to execute each code path in your application to > get > > the same result. > > Does this mean, that you hope not needing to do so, when using static type > checking? If you carefully read what I wrote you'll see that this is not what I said. Basicly I was just trying to emphasize the difference between compile time and run time checking. With compile time checking all of your code is checked each time you compile it. With run time checking the tests are executed only if you happen to execute that code path. For this reason I strongly prefer languages whose design and philosophy encourage compile time checks. > > ....snip... > > I keep seeing Objective-C advocates claiming that it makes writing > programs > > much easier. That may well be true, but the hard part of programming is > not > > coding it's making the program do what it's supposed to do, perform well, > > and gracefully handle errors. C++ makes this easier because the language > > and the philosophy emphasize catching problems at compile time. > > What problems can be caught by C++ at compile time? Do you mean problems due > to using wrong data-types? > I also think, that static type checking can help avoid some bugs. That`s why > I most of the time use it in ObjectiveC. Unfortunately, using wrong types is > one of the smaller bug-producers. Wrong types may or may not be a major source of bugs, but I feel much better knowing that I'm using a language that is going to catch almost all of my type errors. I want to use a compiler that will do everything it can do find bugs in my programs. I want frameworks that rigorously check method arguments and perform invariant checks upon entering every public function. I want garbage collection. I want a language that was designed for writing large robust systems. Hmmm, sounds kind of like....Eiffel! --Jesse #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: SimonSays (speech recognition) Date: 12 Jan 1997 13:01:59 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5banc7$kim@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52821 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178972 comp.sys.next.programmer:21543 Someone asked recently about SimonSays, the NeXT app for voice control of the interface... If I remember rightly there was a Mac equivalent (Voice Navigator?) which was available a while ago -- is that still around? I notice from the Apple developer pages http://speech.apple.com/speech/dev/dev.html that a development environment for speech recognition has been released (it looks similar in many respects to Visus' SpeechKit which was released for the NeXT a few years ago) -- it actually also has a chap sporting a bow tie similar to that which SimonSays had too! I wonder if this kit is to be ported to Rhapsody (it looks as if it's written in C++ at the moment -- it could be used "as is", else maybe better ported to Objective-C)? I'd have thought that given this kit it should not be too difficult to reconstruct SimonSays, probably (given that ASR technology has improved since then) actually rather better... Despite my background (or perhaps because of it!) I'm not convinced that SR is quite ready for prime time yet, and one of my main criticisms has always been that I didn't thingk enough attention had been paid to the User Interface. What's really encouraging about the article is the emphasis that the developers give to the creation of a good and imaginitve UI. Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.hk.net!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:37:45 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5aq7uf$7vo@huffalump.visi.com> <5be9qd$k2k@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11016 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3520 comp.sys.next.programmer:21544 In article <5be9qd$k2k@nntp1.apple.com>, Michael D. Rossetti wrote: Thank you for your clear and informative message. A question if I may... > 1. Support for existing MacApp/C++-based applications which will remain > on the Mac OS 7.x path until that path goes away (Blue Box). Seems reasonable. > 2. Support for moving existing MacApp/C++-based applications > over to Rhapsody (Yellow Box). A very good idea. > 3. Enhancing AppKit through integration of key MacApp concepts. Can't comment. > 4. Support for writing new or reworking existing MacApp/Objective C > applications to run only under Rhapsody (Yellow Box). Also reasonable. My question addresses the opposite problem, what do Yellow Box developers do to get their code running on Sys7? This strikes me as rather important, and to date, ignored in all the press releases and such. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 13 Jan 1997 06:57:36 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5bcmd0$bk0@duke.squonk.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> <32D6499E.1017@surf.net.au> <5b5n2j$9e8@castor.cca.rockwell.com> <32D71873.546C@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.141.185.34 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21545 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52828 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:178986 comp.sys.mac.system:191412 Ferret wrote: > Yes, using NEXTSTEP probably would clear up some concernes. But > how would I use NEXTSTEP? It's not like I have them at work. I > dont have a job. I live at home during the holdidays with my Mac > PowerBook and my Quadra 610, and at school I use my PowerBook > and the PC's they have there. Funny, I dont see NeXT anywhere in > there. Well, another thing to realize is that Apple is working on something they're calling Rhapsody. This is based on NeXTSTEP, but it will look and feel more like the MacOS than NeXTSTEP does. So even if you used NeXTSTEP, you might get yourself (and us!) all worked up about issues that won't exist in Rhapsody... > Why is NeXT spelt with capital N, lower e, capital X, and capital T It's a trademark. It's a way to recognize that you mean "the company which calls itself 'NeXT'", instead of just the standard word next. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:43:49 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 8 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 In article <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com>, Eren_Kotan@next.com wrote: > id myArray = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@"One", @"Two", @"Three", nil]; I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical context, but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: SimonSays (speech recognition) Date: 13 Jan 1997 23:32:12 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 57 Message-ID: <5begls$nkk@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5banc7$kim@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bcasp$614@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5be2di$1mev@msunews.cl.msu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52866 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179051 comp.sys.next.programmer:21547 In article <5be2di$1mev@msunews.cl.msu.edu>, wrote: >In <5bcasp$614@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: >> That, and I can't think of anything useful to do with speech recognition, >> so I don't use it. But that's not for lack of technical excellence. >Geeze I have an idea for a definate 'killer app' once SR is commonly >available. It's so simple and so insanely useful is almost made me cry. Well, there's some Star Trek database thing that's voice-controlled like the computers on the Enterprise (speaking of which, do you think there'll be a Star Trek theme for the Appearance Manager?), but I didn't consider that a good enough use to buy it. >I've been researching using a PC with the technology and interfacing >the SR in there to various OS's. I think that a next generation OS >should really consider incorporating a SR engine into the UI, very >much like how SimonSays works. But from the SimonSays example it Just to clarify what you mean by integration, what do you think of Apple's speech recognition? It's not quite integrated to the point where you can say "close window" and the OS will close a window, but you can say "close window" and it will run the Close Window script in the Speakable Items folder, and it works while another app is active. >Frankly it is time for us to be unchained from our keyboards and >mice. Heck mostly we use a mouse just to navigate windows and >the GUI and a keyboard to type words/commands.. I personally >don't ever want to have to use a keyboard again!!!!! Let me walk I don't know. I always feel kind of dumb talking to my computer. >And this is why you'd want multiple cpu's (SR eats a lot of cpu!) Well, that's not the *only* reason I'd want multiple CPUs, but that's a very good point. >Also using some of the hearing aid technology it should be easy >to make a microphone that will pick up only sounds from a persons >lips and not the surrondings (at least one that sits 1-3" from your mouth).. Spy tech! Plug your microphone into a preprocessor that filters background noise, amplifies the voice range, searches for speech patterns, maybe it can take a load off of the processor. >Please give us decent SR under OpenStep on PPC Apple/NeXT >and I'll give you a killer app that could sell 10s-100s of millions >of machines. You're awfully optimistic. What did you have in mind? -- "But you can't let the package hide the pudding; evil is just plain bad. You don't cotton to it. You've got to hit it in the nose with the rolled-up newspaper of goodness. Bad Dog! BAD! DOG!" - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!news From: John Friesen Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: SimonSays (speech recognition) Date: 13 Jan 1997 23:09:45 GMT Organization: BCTEL Advanced Communications Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5befbp$87q2@news.bctel.net> References: <5banc7$kim@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bcasp$614@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5be2di$1mev@msunews.cl.msu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: client1.pacificplace.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:52868 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179053 comp.sys.next.programmer:21548 > mmalcolm crawford wrote: > That, and I can't think of anything useful to do with speech recognition, > so I don't use it. But that's not for lack of technical excellence. I have used the demo version of SimonSays on my Nextstation Turbo and it worked very well. I just spoke normally to the computer and it followed about a dozen commands that I set for it. There is also a demo called Text to Speech and that program is wild.....all you do is drag text into the app and it reads it to you. It is very good for checking reports, etc. I hope an app will soon be available on Openstep that will convert Speech to text.....keyboards are the slowest human/computer interface..... ############################################################################################################################## Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!shelob.afs.com!news From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 14 Jan 1997 20:57:32 GMT Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 14 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5bgrvs$pib@shelob.afs.com> References: Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.203 Maury Markowitz writes > I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical context, > but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. To avoid namespace collisions, it is typical for each vendor of objects to adopt a 2 or 3 letter prefix identifying the author in the class name. Otherwise, two ISVs might both write a "Foo" class, which could never be used together in the same project. "NS" is the prefix NeXT chose for its own classes. -- Gregory H. Anderson | "I wander'd off by myself, In the Crystal Ball/Star Gazer | mystical moist night-air, and from Anderson Financial Systems | time to time, Look'd up in perfect greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | silence at the stars." Walt Whitman #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.244.176.52!news.iij.ad.jp!tyo2.gate.nec!tyo4.gate.nec!newssvt02.tk!newssvd01!news From: "Hiroki Yamaberi" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: CMU Common Lisp for NS 3.3 FIP Date: 14 Jan 1997 01:16:15 GMT Organization: C&C Internet Service mesh Lines: 13 Message-ID: <01bc01b8$080225e0$020000c0@mini> NNTP-Posting-Host: taka1du06.tm.mesh.ad.jp X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Hi, I'm porting CMU Common Lisp for NEXTSTEP 3.3 for Intel. And current Free snapshot is avairable, but with no warranty: ftp://gokhu.com/pub/cmucl17f.tgz You better get Emacs Editor as a lisp listener. Have fun. -- /// Hiroki Y. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nic.win.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!nic.ott.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 14 Jan 1997 21:01:54 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5bgs82$ldk@news.digifix.com> References: <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 On 01/14/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com>, Eren_Kotan@next.com wrote: > >> id myArray = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@"One", @"Two", @"Three", nil]; > > I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical context, >but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. > >Maury > Actually, I think its better. The reason being as long as you keep your own objects out of the NSxxx namespace, you will not find yourself being stomped on. As well, it gives you a definate indication of ownership of the original class. NS (OpenStep), Misc (MiscKit), etc.. -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!beatty.slip.netcom.com!beatty From: beatty@netcom.com (Derek Lee Beatty) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 13 Jan 1997 18:30:21 GMT Organization: none Lines: 125 Message-ID: <5bduvt$e54@beatty.slip.netcom.com> References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> <5b8mje$nam@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: beatty.slip.netcom.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.81) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11017 comp.sys.next.programmer:21556 don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote: >Having used both, the question of which I would rather use is >a no-brainer. I'd like to know if other people who have used >_both_ languages _extensively_ feel the same as I do or not. >I don't want to hear from people who have only used one or the >other or who have not used them both a lot; there would be too >much bias in the answer to get what I'm looking for here. I'm not quite what you're looking for but I'm fairly close. I've used C++ extensively and Objective C only occasionally (but Smalltalk extensively), and I'd much rather use Objective C than C++. The problem is not that I can't build a large system; I've built large systems in Smalltalk, and I've built large systems in a mixture of Scheme and C. I've written lots of C over the years, and I've had people seek me out out tell me what a pleasure it was to read my code. I've done some teaching of Common Lisp. I've done a little work using pure functional languages. I've done research on formal methods for hardware design. I think I have a fairly well-rounded CS background. I think the real problem with C++, compared to Objective C, is that while Objective C was very clear on its design goal (add the flexibility of OOP to C), C++ suffered not having clear goals. C++ was structured on two tenets: "compatibility" and "speed:" 1) compatibility with C, and 2) getting the highest possible performance for small snippets of code like foo->bar(). I'll give you the compatibility. C++ is highly compatible with C. Some complain that the language is maligned because much code was written by poorly-trained C programmers. Was it Perlis who said that one man's bug is another man's feature? I'll also give you the speed, for small chunks of code. Compile-time type-checking facilitates compile-time optimizations. Unfortunately, this kind of type checking has been misrepresented as offering superior safety. Although it can, you don't see the safety because C++ is fat with other dangers, as I'll explain later. (If you want a similar language with this kind of type-checking designed for safety, try Modula-3.) Doing as much binding of message (name) to method (code) as possible at compile time seems like a great idea because the compiler can check a lot. It works well in a waterfall development methodology (i.e., one where requirements don't change) led by an omniscient system architect (i.e., one who gets the base classes right the first time). Where this early binding breaks down is where the first version isn't right. Sometimes the requirements change after you've started coding. This can happen because the requirements analysis wasn't done right; it can also happen because the requirements are unknowable. Examples of the latter are programs that must comply with a law ("nobody is safe while the legislature is in session") or that have a non-trivial user interface (User studies followed by code changes are the only way to build good interfaces for novel tasks.) This point is easily missed. It's hard to grasp for students whose programming problems are well-specified (what instructor has time to take the student questions that an ill-specified problem generates?). It's also be hard to grasp for ivory-tow#################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles W Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 14:25:10 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21560 comp.sys.next.advocacy:52959 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179197 comp.sys.mac.system:191593 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 14-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Scott Maxwell@nic.com >> Right. You can run the app, but not launch it by double clicking >> one of its data files. > > Well how about this. Perhaps a method could be devised so that when you > move an application the database of locations is updated when the move > occurs? I know nothing of the internal operation of OpenStep but it seems > like an easy thing to implement. What would that gain you? Right now, NEXTSTEP has conventions for the filesystem locations for applications and other components which are supposed to be available to everyone on the system. These conventions exist for a number of good reasons-- they simplify system administration and fileserver configuration, and they make it much easier for users to use a new machine without having to waste time trying to figure out where important applications were installed. Nothing prevents you from installing applications whereever you want and making links (aka aliases) into the standard locations, or from making links from the standard locations whereever else you like. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: DPS Hit Detection Date: 15 Jan 1997 22:26:44 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 54 Message-ID: <5bjlj4$sab@news.xmission.com> References: <5biv18$h7p@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21561 comp.sys.mac.misc:131782 comp.sys.mac.system:191618 "Lawson English" wrote: > Erik M. Buck said: > >It seems that GX provides higher level abstractions of "Graphics" than > >DisplayPostscript. I have not heard any reason why GX could not be > >implemented as frameworks based on DisplayPostscript. I can not give any > >details (proprietary information) but my company makes a product that does > >essentially that. It is not GX, but it has similar capabilities. > > GX is an optimized data base that is written entirely in compiled C that > calls its primitives directly as part of a single function call, rather > than as a string of bytes interpreted by the DPS server. If you're going to dig that deep into the engine, you'll find that DPS's binary object sequences are surprisingly similar. And this is how most of the NEXTSTEP drawing occurs--it is a lot faster than you would expect from an "interpreter" because most of the "interpreting" was done by PSwrap at compile time and ends up being more of a jump table. DPS is very, very well written, contrary to what you think. > The cached data that GX generates is available to be used by the primitives > because there is no intermediate set of calls needed as is the case with > non-DPS cache info used with DPS primitives.[...]. > > Being forced to store the cache info for the font (not just bit-maps, but > info used for hit-testing of the above kinds of text-strings) on the other > side of the DPS server stream from the primitives that would use it, would > slow things down. I suspect that it would slow things down a lot more than > would be acceptable in a multi-tasking environment, which is probably why > Apple has explicitly said that the GX line layout was being merged with > DPS. Maybe the rest of it can be made fast enough to work in frameworks or > maybe they are abandoning the rest. [...] Now here's a problem. You're effectively saying that Erik's solution wouldn't work because it would be too slow if built upon DPS. Well, although like Erik, I can't give any details, I have seen his _actual_ _implementation_ of this and IT WORKS! It is even reasonable when running on a 33MHz 68040! It isn't as bad as you think, I would posit, because quite simply I've seen a working implementation that disproves your theory. This is _fact_. You can posture all you want, but at some point you'll scrape up against reality... By the way, I do hope Erik's work is someday available as a commercial product. It is _way_ cool. It impresses me; GX does not. :-) [That's not a flame at GX--it is nice for what it is, but Erik's product--the part of it that runs on top of the GX-like code and could probably be ported onto GX--is really, really nifty.] -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wco.com!news From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys Subject: OPENSTEP Documentation on the Web Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 19:42:06 GMT Organization: Electronics Service, Unit No. 16 Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5bjc0a$js2@news.wco.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: octans47.wco.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21562 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179274 comp.sys:184 NeXT has a new page up on the NeXT site pointing to all available OpenStep documentation for Mac programmers. You can access it through: http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/Download Thanks to the NeXT Technical Publications group for pulling this together. Mike Paquette -- I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me. mpaque@wco.com mpaque@next.com NeXT business mail only, please #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:53:29 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21563 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53009 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179282 comp.sys.mac.system:191673 In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > In any event, your entire argument here is weak and irrelevant. You're right of course, who would want something like standardization? > issue was whether Rhapsody should include Unix utilities. I argued > that it should, because many developers of GUI applications could use > them to save time. Your response is to assert that Unix utilities are > "nonstandard". No, my argument is, and was sidestepped, that these functions are better off provided vias modern interfaces rather than command line tools. > Rhapsody! Whatever Rhapsody includes is a de facto standard Rhapsody > utility, and may be used in Rhapsody GUI apps. So they should get rid of the command line stuff then. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!pump.acadian.net!news.bridge.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.124.68.65!newsfeed.gte.net!cust81.max27.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net!user From: ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:24:33 -0700 Organization: Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Lines: 40 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust81.max27.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11023 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3539 comp.sys.next.programmer:21564 In article , tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: > > Obj-C does not support multiple inheritance. > > I keep hearing that multiple inheritance is a "must have" feature, but I've > never really noticed the lack if it's missing. The fact that others find > it necessary leads me to believe that I must be missing something > somewhere. I've posted before that I don't find it a needed feature, maybe > I'm just being dense. > > Could you list off a few reasons why lacking mulitple inheritance in a > language is limiting and annoying? (looking around ruefully) I don't > really want to cause another language riot or flamefest, I'd really like to > know. > MI is extremely useful as both a design tool and a modification tool if used properly. Like any other tool you can also misuse it in ways that get you into deep yogurt. In the design case, it allows you to partition and encapsulate various independently-useful orthogonal functionalities so that they can be combined at will (mixins) without each feature tripping over the others. In the case of modifications, it allows addition of features without messing up the original classes. For example, you buy (or obtain by hook or by crook) a library of objects that you really don't want to modify, but now you want to subclass and implement streams or something that was not included in that object library. It's easy to do with MI. Without it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more work than you had planned. -- G. Gordon Apple, PhD The Ed4U Project Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Redondo Beach, CA ga@ed4u.com www.ed4u.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: DPS Hit Detection Date: 15 Jan 1997 13:10:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <5biv18$h7p@castor.cca.rockwell.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.195 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21565 comp.sys.mac.misc:131812 comp.sys.mac.system:191680 Erik M. Buck said: >It seems that GX provides higher level abstractions of "Graphics" than >DisplayPostscript. I have not heard any reason why GX could not be >implemented as frameworks based on DisplayPostscript. I can not give any >details (proprietary information) but my company makes a product that does >essentially that. It is not GX, but it has similar capabilities. GX is an optimized data base that is written entirely in compiled C that calls its primitives directly as part of a single function call, rather than as a string of bytes interpreted by the DPS server. The cached data that GX generates is available to be used by the primitives because there is no intermediate set of calls needed as is the case with non-DPS cache info used with DPS primitives. If a GXLayout shape contains Korean Hangul text, GXHitTestLayout(myShape...) can return the tri-glyph that was clicked on OR which side (left/middle/right) of the tri-glyph was clicked on, depnding on which options are set. GX hit-testing even helps resolve (although not completely from what I understand) the case where you have clicked on the boundry of right-to-left and left-to-right text combinations (e.g. Hebrew quoting English). Given how complex some languages and combinations of languages are, even simple text-selection done in real-time isn't a trivial task, and you would like to do it as optimally as possible. Having all the cache info available immediately to the GX call makes it as speedy as possible. Being forced to store the cache info for the font (not just bit-maps, but info used for hit-testing of the above kinds of text-strings) on the other side of the DPS server stream from the primitives that would use it, would slow things down. I suspect that it would slow things down a lot more than would be acceptable in a multi-tasking environment, which is probably why Apple has explicitly said that the GX line layout was being merged with DPS. Maybe the rest of it can be made fast enough to work in frameworks or maybe they are abandoning the rest. I hope that they don't abandon the rest of GX. Since GX is a complete package, including printing, I'd like the entire thing to be available. Printing is a good example of where the GX strategy has its advantage: having everything sent to the print driver as a stream of GX shape objects means that you can pre-process the print job as individual shapes before it is finally translated into PS calls. Since there is only one print model ever used under NeXT/OpenStep, the printing problems that have plagued Apple since they released GX won't be an issue. A document that is rendered using GX would merely call a "GX printing translator" that that would allow the GX "print extension" processing to occur and THEN would translate it to PS for normal NeXT/OpenStep printing. Straight-forward and trivial to implement compared to what Apple has had to deal with under System 7.x, due to all the backwards compatibility issues due to various old-style print architecture limitations. Some of the more powerful applications would patch the OS all over the place for printing purposes and they would no longer print once GX was installed. Not the case here, since ONLY GX-rendered applications would ever call the GX printing translater and UNIX doesn't allow apps to patch the OS directly (sorry Microsoft). --------------------------------------------------- Apple is a company, but Macintosh is a community. -S.M. King --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!news.mdor.state.mn.us!news1.mr.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: [charter] comp.sys.*.advocacy Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:39:36 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <32DD5CA8.561F84AB@screaming.org> References: <5ahf5n$pq2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5ajg47$soi@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <1997010514570823842@p026.gor.euronet.nl> <5ap7db$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5argj1$84s@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5auv1t$h2c@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5b0vqa$k9@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5b1bq7$48e@news.xmission.com> <5b5vme$s70@news.xmission.com> <0mrHfT600iV945m0Ei@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179311 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53026 comp.sys.next.programmer:21566 Charles W Swiger wrote: > No doubt some Mac advocates recall that I and other non-Mac people have > slammed the Mac hard for it's flaws in multitasking and VM; but the > truth is that I've criticised NeXT harder than I ever have the Mac. > I've bitched about the miserably buggy POSIX "support", the inability to > turn NetInfo _OFF_, the lack of a modern sendmail, and a handful of > other issues for years. It's true. Charles has simultaneously been one of this forum's most harsh NeXT critics, and one of the strongest NeXTstep advocates. You'll find that he's a great source of knowledge and information. > Constructive criticism can be very useful to developers, assuming that > it is based off of knowledge of the problem and not some knee-jerk > reaction. Most NEXTSTEP advocates are honest enough to acknowledge that > there are other ways of doing things that may be better than the current > "NEXTSTEP way". So go ahead and criticise what we have to say (if > you've understood what the subject is), because that process will help > make Rhapsody better. > > And that is what we're all trying to do, right? I might also add that we should try to contain these discussions to single groups within the comp.sys.next.* and comp.sys.mac.* hierarchies. Many people try to read all of the groups within, which makes crossposting between them a pain. Besides, the people in the *.programmer groups already have issues to deal with concerning already-released versions of the soon-to-be-merged systems. Unlike the advocacy groups, they're trying to get immediate answers to questions that their work depends upon. I'm sure they'll drop by *.advocacy in their downtime. All we have to do is a little follow-up trimming. [followups trimmed back to advocacy groups.] -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!rex From: rex@mit.edu (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: DPS Hit Detection Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:07:26 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5bg2e0$ar2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32DBDD3C.1EBAB5AF@screaming.org> <5bh10q$c1s@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bj1nk$sab@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phi-pa8-17.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jan 15 2:55:47 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21567 comp.sys.mac.misc:131826 comp.sys.mac.system:191694 In article <5bj1nk$sab@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: )You can do this, but it's a sort of a hack. You set the *linewidth* )to your tolerance. The hit detection is done according to what PS )would have drawn, if it were drawing, so increasing the linewidth will )expand the hit "tolerance" a bit. Not obvious, but it works. :-) )Changing the line caps will affect the corners, too. Lotsa fun, eh? That's what I suspected, and it *is* a hack ;) Inefficient too, if there are a lot of thin objects to be checked. -Eric -- Excerpt from Marianne Moore's 'The Pangolin' This near artichoke with head and legs and grit-equipped gizzard, the night miniature artist engineer is, yes, Leonardo da Vinci's replica- impressive animal and toiler for whom we seldom hear. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!ames!purdue!oitnews.harvard.edu!cmcl2.nyu.edu!newsserv.cs.sunysb.edu!news.cc.sunysb.edu!news From: rlarson@semlab5.sbs.sunysb.edu (Richard K. Larson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Porting from NS to Rhapsody Date: 7 Jan 1997 20:28:16 GMT Organization: State University of New York at Stony Brook Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: semlab5.sbs.sunysb.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) I realize that a gazillion issues with NeXTSTEP/Rhapsody are up in the air at the moment, but is there any sense out there about how easy/difficult it is going to be to move existing NS applications to Rhapsody? For example, - if Apple changes from Mach 3.2 to Nukernel, will that entail significant reprogramming, - what about the QuickDraw/DisplayPS issue? - etc. I mostly interested in how the possible choices now facing Apple will impact on the issue of moving over. Obviously it won't be possible to say "it'll be easy" vs. "it'll be hard" at this stage. Thanks! -Richard Larson #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!sugee From: sugee@imap2.asu.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Cost of a NeXT Web Site? Date: 15 Jan 1997 22:58:37 GMT Organization: Arizona State University Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: general4.asu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I doubt that many advocates and customers like Chylser, CyberSlice, Nissan, and etc. as the list goes on, will argue about the merits of using NeXT's Web technologies for deploying their Web sites. We have all heard plenty and are proud of what is being accomplished. However, what I haven't heard anything about, something which curiously dawned on me recently and after reviewing what some of these folks are doing, is the cost of implementing and deploying these Web Sites. Can anybody provide approximate costs or actual figures of sites like these? I do respect people's anonymity. Cheers, Sue #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!rex From: rex@mit.edu (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: DPS Hit Detection Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:14:24 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <5biv18$h7p@castor.cca.rockwell.com> <5bjlj4$sab@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phi-pa5-01.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jan 15 7:02:49 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21570 comp.sys.mac.misc:131837 comp.sys.mac.system:191712 In article <5bjlj4$sab@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: )If you're going to dig that deep into the engine, you'll find that )DPS's binary object sequences are surprisingly similar. And this is )how most of the NEXTSTEP drawing occurs--it is a lot faster than you )would expect from an "interpreter" because most of the "interpreting" )was done by PSwrap at compile time and ends up being more of a jump )table. DPS is very, very well written, contrary to what you think. I don't think any of us GX proponents have ever questioned the quality of DPS' code. We're questioning the merits of using it as the one and only imaging and display system. For instance the fact that DPS uses a very fast byte-code evaluation system doesn't change the fact that the tight coupling between GX's object database and its rasterization components allows for some optimizations and operations that aren't achievable with the current DPS system. The fact that Adobe has repeatedly stated that its interpreted systems were inefficient and is actively developing new somewhat GX-like systems such as Bravo and Supra, makes me question whether or not DPS should be the foundation for the future of Mac imaging. The fact that Next made a usable DPS-based system doesn't mean that system couldn't be enhanced, nor does it mean that its the best system given today's technology. )_actual_ _implementation_ of this and IT WORKS! It is even reasonable )when running on a 33MHz 68040! As is GX. :) )By the way, I do hope Erik's work is someday available as a commercial )product. It is _way_ cool. It impresses me; GX does not. :-) )[That's not a flame at GX--it is nice for what it is, but Erik's )product--the part of it that runs on top of the GX-like code and could )probably be ported onto GX--is really, really nifty.] It certainly sounds intriguing :) Me, I'm looking forward to MovieClips Pro, the non-pro version right now gives you a very tantalizing taste of what kinds of real-time video effects are possible with GX's graphics engine. Has anyone tried making something that can transform and blend NextTime movies together in real-time? (That is on a Pentium or Pentium Pro, not on an ND board.) -Eric -- Excerpt from Marianne Moore's 'The Pangolin' This near artichoke with head and legs and grit-equipped gizzard, the night miniature artist engineer is, yes, Leonardo da Vinci's replica- impressive animal and toiler for whom we seldom hear. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 01:37:59 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5bk0pn$f3i@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21571 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53045 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179346 comp.sys.mac.system:191718 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >> In any event, your entire argument here is weak and irrelevant. > > You're right of course, who would want something like standardization? > >> issue was whether Rhapsody should include Unix utilities. I argued >> that it should, because many developers of GUI applications could use >> them to save time. Your response is to assert that Unix utilities are >> "nonstandard". > > No, my argument is, and was sidestepped, that these functions are better >off provided vias modern interfaces rather than command line tools. > >> Rhapsody! Whatever Rhapsody includes is a de facto standard Rhapsody >> utility, and may be used in Rhapsody GUI apps. > > So they should get rid of the command line stuff then. If nothing else, you need the command line stuff to run scripts. That's reason enough for me to keep it in. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!telly!lethe!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:42:04 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21572 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53052 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179355 comp.sys.mac.system:191730 In article <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu>, shimpei@ra.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita) wrote: > Seeing the litany of bugs plaguing any new Apple technology (68K CFM? > Open Transport 1.0.x? PCI support in general?) Well aside from the problem with the CFM 68k, the other two seem to be doing very well indeed. > MacOS doesn't exactly > appear to be a treature trove of good code either (but of course we'll > never know for sure because we can't look at the source code). Yeah, but at least you get an _API_ rather then sending streams to a shell! > No one is asking you to use rm on the command line! If the rm thing is > the extent of your complaint about the Unix programs, I'd say you > haven't used them enough to really understand their value. Sigh. > I do know many Unices ship with some truly buggy programs built-in. > This is really a different issue from your beef about rm's user > interface; No, it's the same beef. It's time someone started making open OS's that DIDN'T use command lines and shell scripts to accomplish things. We've had GUI's for ten years now, isn't it time to stop calling utils with them? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!telly!lethe!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:10:34 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21573 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53054 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179357 comp.sys.mac.system:191732 In article <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com>, dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > : Yes, but the quality of these applications varies, some is passable, > : lots os terrible. rm doesn't even ask you to confirm, let alone allow you > : to rescue the items. It's not lazy coders that's the problem, it's the > : code that exists from years ago that is. > > Now demoing at MacWorld! It's the person without a clue whatsoever! > > Have you ever even *used* a UNIX shell prompt? It's clear that you don't > have any idea what you're talking about. Ummm, so you're saying that rm's default behaviour is to ask you to confirm? Or that all of this stuff is standardized? Or is ad hominem attacks just something you do for fun? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!telly!lethe!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:11:24 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21574 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53055 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179358 comp.sys.mac.system:191733 In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Oooh, I bet the _Unix Hater's Handbook_ told you to say that. No actually, it's post right here in this conference that show examples. For instance... I've been tearing my hair out the last couple days dealing with HP-UX, Hewlett-Packard's version of Unix. They made a raft of gratitious filesystem changes that added NOTHING to the value of the OS, except to make it difficult to work with in a multivendor Unix environment. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!telly!lethe!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:20:50 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5be4ot$q7q@catapult.gatech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21575 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53056 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179359 In article <5be4ot$q7q@catapult.gatech.edu>, nobody@ictyl.gt.ed.net wrote: > A lot of what is in the mac toolbox from who knows when is not great code > ;) Exactly, isn't that why they're buying NeXT? To get rid of it? > Furthermore, all users can benefit for the same reason that even now Mac > programs are smaller than the same windows programs(though not as > dramaticly as before)-- common tasks are part of the system, so a program > can expect and call them there. This makes programs smaller, and also make > it faster to write programs because the wheel (or a search routine) need > not be reinvented. Code re-use is something all programmers should seek to > employ. I agree, so use the library system that makes OpenStep so great, and publish the interfaces. Why do all then Unix-hacks find this so terribly odd? I see comments about how great it is to have direct manipulation over objects in the same message with people lauding command line tools! > if the line "alias rm='rm -i'" And that fixes all the problem with the tool being unsafe in the first place. Sigh. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!telly!lethe!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:22:07 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21576 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53057 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179360 comp.sys.mac.system:191734 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > To put another spin on it, if they did decide to rearrange everything > into a new "sensible" order, it would be Just Another Arbitrary > System, aka Windows NT. The _only_ positive thing Apple has with > OpenStep/Mach (nee NeXTSTEP) is to make it a better Unix. If they > turn it into "Just as good as Unix, but different", then there is no > reason to run NeXTSTEP over OpenStep/NT, and it's already clear that > most of the market doesn't buy OpenStep/NT over raw NT Or they can put both on the CD and allow the user to chose. We're not all running ISP's, and people running Photoshop could care less about needing /usr. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: DPS Hit Detection Date: 15 Jan 1997 20:23:02 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <853351061.18559@dejanews.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.167 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21577 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20210 marko@wgatg.com said: > >The missing piece of information though is that with NEXTSTEP/OpenStep, >we use nested NSView subclasses for drawing, and "hit detection" is >already provided for these - a view that is clicked receives a mouseDown: >message if it >wants. > >Furthermore, through a mechanism called the "responder chain," if a >nested View fails to acknowledge a hit, then its superview is given the >opportunity to acknowledge >it. > >There is no real work involved here - you just implement the method and >you'll receive notification of a hit within your bounds. If you need to >specialize the hit test however, you just override the mouseDown: method >and perform a geometric test, or as a fallback for complex shapes, use >the DPS hit test routines (which for us serve to complete the business of >hit detection, they aren't the sole source of hit detection >mechanism). This is standard framework stuff going back to the days of MacApp, if not to SmallTalk itself. This won't work well for things like a large collection of shapes embedded within shapes. Nor for tri-glyph Korean Hangul characters. --------------------------------------------------- "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that Macs work better than PCs... But you'd be a fool not to follow their lead." -Sanjay S Vakil, graduate student, MIT Aeronautics and Astronautics Dept. -100% Mac --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Cost of a NeXT Web Site? Date: 16 Jan 1997 03:57:51 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5bk8vv$3im@news.digifix.com> References: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 On 01/15/97, sugee@imap2.asu.edu wrote: > >I doubt that many advocates and customers like Chylser, CyberSlice, >Nissan, and etc. as the list goes on, will argue about the merits of >using NeXT's Web technologies for deploying their Web sites. We have all >heard plenty and are proud of what is being accomplished. > >However, what I haven't heard anything about, something which curiously >dawned on me recently and after reviewing what some of these folks are >doing, is the cost of implementing and deploying these Web Sites. Can >anybody provide approximate costs or actual figures of sites like these? >I do respect people's anonymity. > Thats likely not something that you're going to have much luck finding out, the spectrum is pretty wide there. There are some WebObjects projects like Stepwise (a NEXTSTEP/OpenStep product registry) that are based on EOF and WOF and it took perhaps 20-40 hours to implement. (The back end OpenStep UI has probably taken about as long). Of course I've re-written it a number of times now so thats a rather poor example. I've written sample catalog applications in WebObjects in a matter of a weekend. However I know of _much_ larger scale projects that have been in development for 6-8 months with a pretty good team of people on it (4-6).. -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!telly!lethe!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:50:38 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21579 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53061 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179365 comp.sys.mac.system:191738 In article <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com>, dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > I think developers shouldn't be given APIs or frameworks because this will > lead to dependence on them. Next thing you know they'll be wanting > compilers. Computers shouldn't have operating systems, because, let's face > it, what's in there isn't all that great code. You know, what is it about this thread that leads to such terrible, and in this case idiotic, reducto ad absurdum arguments from people that know better? Dave, I'm not asking for people to get rid of the *&(#&^*%$ utilties. I'm saying that they should be OOPS libs on the disk with published interfaces that you can call from within your programs regardless of version and do so without having to flatten your code to a byte stream! Like OpenStep. You've heard of that right? Let's take a page from you're books... Since CLI's run on all computer's, it's obvious that we should get rid of libraries of code altogether and make absolutely everything a shell command. It's obvious isn't it? windisp -c "MyWindow" < my_text.txt There, now we don't need those silly library things and we can just ask cshell to display our windows for us! Better yet, let's get rid of all those imcompatible and confusing programming languages, let's do EVERYTHING in the shell! Yeah, addition and division and everything! It'll work! > Have you ever even *used* a UNIX shell prompt? It's clear that you don't > have any idea what you're talking about. Oh, then would you like to point out this paradigm of superb programming you refer to but don't name? sendmail? ls? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!n3ott.istar!infoshare!whome!telly!lethe!news.on.rogers.wave.ca!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 18:15:43 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bbtbb$b14@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21580 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53062 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179366 comp.sys.mac.system:191739 In article <5bbtbb$b14@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > rm is a bad example. For what I was trying to illustrate, it's a great one. > Most ISPs I've seen have aliased "rm" so that > it does an "rm -i" which asks about every single file before removing > it...though admittedly, without that change, the default is to assume > that the user knows what they are doing. Of course the "-i" bugs me > because I _do_ know what I'm doing when I do an "rm". At least it is > there for those who don't know what they are doing. :-) Now do you see my point? All of these things in the "perfect" OS would be object libs on the drive. Your programs would send them messages with objects as parameters. Your CLI would do the opposite of what you have to do now, it would take flat bytes and turn them into objects to pass to these libs. Look, ignore Unix, just look at that last paragraph and tell me what exactly is so wrong for asking for the entire OS to work the same way, rather than some one way and others others? No, I _don't_ expect this to happen any time soon. Is that a reason to think it's a bad idea to try? > which this reliance perhaps needs some reexamination. But I'll be > damned if I'm going to try to rewrite awk or sed--or sendmail--so that > my apps can use them. Those already work, and I'd like to save some > time to get to the core of what I wish to produce. Yeah, but do you really like flattening out your objects so you can stream them? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!news From: martin.boucher@cgocable.ca ($$$ EASY MONEY $$$) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.transputer,comp.sys.unisys,comp.sys.xerox,comp.sys.zenith.z100,comp.terminals,comp.terminals.bitgraph Subject: $ Take 5 minutes to read this and it WILL change your life $ Date: 16 Jan 1997 05:33:52 GMT Organization: cgocable Lines: 166 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <5bkek0$fah@nr1.ottawa.istar.net> Reply-To: mboucher@cgocable.ca NNTP-Posting-Host: 45-148.dr.cgocable.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:24628 comp.sys.next.programmer:21581 comp.sys.next.software:27378 comp.sys.transputer:4127 comp.sys.unisys:7176 comp.sys.xerox:1378 comp.sys.zenith.z100:633 comp.terminals:6947 comp.terminals.bitgraph:53 $$$$$$ $50.000 for the New Year $$$$$$ Take five minutes to read this and it WILL change your life. The internet has grown tremendously. It doubles in size every 4 months, think about it. You see those "Make Money Fast " posts more and more. That's ... because it WORKS! So I thought, all those new users might make it work. And I decided to try it out, a few months ago. Besides, whats $5.00, I spend more than in the morning on my way to work on coffee and cigs for the day. So I send in my money and posted. Everyone was calling it a scam, but there are SO many new users from AOL, Netcom, etc. they will join in and make it work for you. Well, two weeks later, I began recieving bucks in the mail! I couldn't believe it! Not just a little, I mean big bucks! At first only a few hundred dollars, then a week later, a couple of thousand, then BOOM. By the end of the fourth week, I had recieved nearly $47.000.00. It came from all over the world. And every bit of it perfectly legal and on the up and up. I've been able to pay off all my bills and still had enough left over for a nice vacation for me and my family. Not only does it work for me, it works for other folks as well. Markus Valppu says he made $57,883 in four weeks. Dave Manning claims he made $53,664 in the same amount of time. Dan Shepstone says it was only $17,000 for him. Do I know these folks? No, but when I read how they say they did it, it made sense to me. Enough sense that I'm taking a similar chance with $5 of my own bucks. Not a big chance, I admit, but one with incredible potential, because $5 is all anyone ever invests in this system. Period. That's all Markus, Dave, or Dan invested, yet their $5 netted them tens of thousands of dollars each, in a safe, legal, completely legitimate way. Here's how it works in 3 easy steps: STEP 1 Invest your $5 by writing your name and address on five seperate pieces of paper along with the words: "PLEASE ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST." (In this way, you're not just sending a dollar to someone; you're paying for a legitimate service.) Fold a $1 bill inside each paper, and mail them by standard Mail to the following five addresses: 1- Stuart Koch Connolly Hall Box c115 501 E St-Joseph Rapide City, SD 57701-3995 2- Karen Lundgren 3889 Kencrest Ave. Halifax, NS Canada B3K 3L4 3- David Wilson 7967 Shoals Drive Apt C Orlando, FL 32817 USA 4- Sylvain Huot 157 Comeau Sept-Iles, Qc, CANADA G4R 1J6 5- Martin Boucher 690 Allard Sept-Iles, Qc, CANADA G4R 1S8 STEP 2 Now remove the top name from the list, and move the other names up. This way, # 5 becomes # 4 and so on. Put your name in as the fifth one on the list. STEP 3 Post the article to at least 250 newsgroups. There are at least 19000 newsgroups at any given moment in time. Try posting to as many newsgroups as you can. Remember the more groups you post to, the more people will see your article and send you cash! (There is always help available from you online service if you do not know how to post to newsgroups, but it's pretty simple... once you modify your letter...250 newsgroups shouldn't take more than 30 to 60 minutes... Then just sit back and wait. STEP 4 You are now in business for yourself, and should start seeing returns within 7 to 14 days! Remember, the Internet is new and huge. There is no way you can lose. Now here is how and why this system works: Out of every block of 250 posts I made, I got back 5 responses. Yes, thats right only 5. You make $5,00 in cash, not checks or money orders, but real cash with your name at #5. Each additional person who sent you $1.00 now also makes 250 additional postings with your name at # 4, 1000 postings. On average then, 50 people will send you $1.00 with your name at # 4 ....$50,00 in your pocket! Now these 50 new people will make 250 postings each with your name at # 3 or 10,000 postings. Average return, 500 people = $500 They make 250 postings each with your name at # 2 = 100,000 postings = 5000 returns at $1.00 each=$5,000.00 in cash! Finally, 5,000 people make 250 postings each with your name at # 1 and you get a return of 60,000 before your name drops off the list. And that's only if everyone down the line makes only 250 postings each! Your total income for this one cycle is $55,000. From time to time when you see your name is no longer on the list you take the latest posting you can find and start all over again. The end result depends on you. You must follow through and repost this article everywhere you can think of. The more postings you make, the more cash ends up in your mailbox. It's too easy and too cheap to pass up!! So thats it. Pretty simple sounding stuff, huh? But believe me, it works! There are millions of people surfing the net every day, all day, all over the world. And 100,000 new people get on the net every day. You know that, you've seen the stories in the paper. So, my friend, read and follow the simple instructions and play fair. Thats the key, and thats all there is to it. Print this out right now so you can refer back to this article easily. Try to keep an eye on all the postings you made to make sure everyone is playing fairly. You know where your name sould be. If you're really not sure or still think this can't be for real, then don't do it. But please print this article and pass it along to someone you know who really needs the bucks, and see what happens. REMEMBER...HONESTY IS THE BEST POLICY. YOU DON'T NEED TO CHEAT THE BASIC IDEA TO MAKE THE BUCKS! GOOD LUCK TO ALL, AND PLEASE PLAY FAIR AND YOU WILL WIN AND MAKE SOME REAL INSTANT FREE CASH! *** By the way, if you try to deceive people by posting the messages with your name in the list and not sending th bucks to the people already included, you will not get much. I know someone who did this and only got about $150 (and that's after two months). Then he sent the 5 bills, people added him to their lists and in 4-5 weeks he had over $10.000! TRY IT AND YOU'LL BE HAPPY!!!! :)))) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!hammer.msfc.nasa.gov!cyberspam!not-for-mail Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.transputer,comp.sys.unisys,comp.sys.xerox,comp.sys.zenith.z100,comp.terminals,comp.terminals.bitgraph,control From: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov Message-ID: Control: cancel <5bkek0$fah@nr1.ottawa.istar.net> Subject: cmsg cancel <5bkek0$fah@nr1.ottawa.istar.net> no reply ignore Reply-To: bitbucket@news.msfc.nasa.gov X-No-Archive: Yes Organization: Semi-Automatic Chain Letter Remover Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 05:36:48 GMT Approved: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov X-Canceled-By: news@news.msfc.nasa.gov X-Cancel-Flags: a X-Cancel-Xref: 25790 Sender: martin.boucher@cgocable.ca ($$$ EASY MONEY $$$) X-Orig-Subject: $ Take 5 minutes to read this and it WILL change your life $ Lines: 11 ignore Make Money Fast post canceled by news@news.msfc.nasa.gov. Make Money Fast has been posted thousands of times, enough to qualify as cancel-on-sight spam. The chain letter scheme it describes is illegal in many countries. For example, see: http://www.usps.gov/websites/depart/inspect/chainlet.htm J. Porter Clark, d/b/a The Unknown News Administrator #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!swidir.switch.ch!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:48:33 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> <5bbuae$b14@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as9s38.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21582 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53074 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179384 comp.sys.mac.system:191758 In article <5bbuae$b14@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: >The paths in the application search path are, by default: > >~/Apps >/LocalApps >/NextApps >/NextAdmin >/NextDeveloper/Apps >/NextDeveloper/Demos > >And all the subdirectories in those listed above. > >> So does this >> mean that the OS will not be able to find apps which aren't in >> any of the directories listed in $PATH? > >Right. You can run the app, but not launch it by double clicking >one of its data files. > Well how about this. Perhaps a method could be devised so that when you move an application the database of locations is updated when the move occurs? I know nothing of the internal operation of OpenStep but it seems like an easy thing to implement. -- -------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm@nic.com "We are a fact-gathering organization only... the minute the FBI begins making recommendations on what should be done with its information, it becomes a Gestapo." -- J. Edgar Hoover #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 16 Jan 1997 06:18:35 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21583 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53077 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179387 comp.sys.mac.system:191762 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : Dave, I'm not asking for people to get rid of the *&(#&^*%$ utilties. : I'm saying that they should be OOPS libs on the disk with published : interfaces that you can call from within your programs regardless of : version and do so without having to flatten your code to a byte stream! Originally you were. When I had posted my reply, you were being utterly clueless and going on about the evils of cp, ls and rm and how horrible rm was because it didn't ask for confirmation (which, it does with the -i switch). Byte streams work well for some things. Objects work well for some things. You're not required to do system("mv foo bar"), you can use system calls, file system objects, whatever. Programmer's choice, which is really the important issue. : Since CLI's run on all computer's, it's obvious that we should get rid : of libraries of code altogether and make absolutely everything a shell : command. It's obvious isn't it? Are you trying to match my sarcastic wit? :) : There, now we don't need those silly library things and we can just ask : cshell to display our windows for us! Better yet, let's get rid of all : those imcompatible and confusing programming languages, let's do : EVERYTHING in the shell! Yeah, addition and division and everything! : It'll work! You're not following what I'm saying. There's nothing wrong with objects (in fact, I love objects. I live and die for objects.), but in many cases it makes more sense to use the shell. mv, rm, ls are bad examples. awk, sed, cut, sort, and uniq are better examples. They're designed for bytestream manipulation, which is something that is pretty common in most programs. Certain things don't always model well as objects; very complex pattern matching comes to mind. : Oh, then would you like to point out this paradigm of superb programming : you refer to but don't name? sendmail? ls? BTW, I don't know what paradigm you're inferring from my earlier posts. Do you think I'm somehow against OOP? What's wrong with ls? You prefer, say, dir /w? I doubt that a program would ever invoke ls and parse the output; it'd be more work than opendir(). Sendmail, despite its flaws, is incredibly powerful, btw. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 16 Jan 1997 06:22:53 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5bkhft$big@darla.visi.com> References: <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21584 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53078 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179388 comp.sys.mac.system:191764 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : No, my argument is, and was sidestepped, that these functions are better : off provided vias modern interfaces rather than command line tools. You're wrong. It'd be better as both. Else, you could argue that providing System 7 compatibilty is a waste, which is something I'm sure I'd be more likely to accept than you. The breadth of functionality that is covered in the UNIX utility suite is pretty big. Re-implementing perfectly clean interfaces like popen ("/usr/lib/sendmail -f maury@softarc.com dwy@ace.net") is time better spent on pushing forward. It's not like we're dealing with DOS here. : So they should get rid of the command line stuff then. Didn't you just suggest the exact opposite in the last post I replied to? -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 16 Jan 1997 06:29:19 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5bkhrv$big@darla.visi.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21585 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53079 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179389 comp.sys.mac.system:191765 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : > : Yes, but the quality of these applications varies, some is passable, : > : lots os terrible. rm doesn't even ask you to confirm, let alone allow you : > : to rescue the items. It's not lazy coders that's the problem, it's the : > : code that exists from years ago that is. Take note, you are faulting "rm" itself, which I will respond to below. : Ummm, so you're saying that rm's default behaviour is to ask you to : confirm? Or that all of this stuff is standardized? Or is ad hominem : attacks just something you do for fun? There are more issues at work than just rm, and if you had an understanding of UNIX, you'd know that. The site's administrator might choose to put 'alias rm "rm -i"' in /etc/tcshrc, in which case prompting would be the "default" behavior for that site. Or, maybe he thought he was clever and put 'alias rm "mv $* ~/.Trash"' and added "rm -rf ~/.Trash" in /etc/logout. Woo woo, there's all the functionality you were just whining about in two lines of shell aliases that'll work across the board on all unices with tcsh. There are really three levels of "default" behavior here: the factory rm, without aliases; the site-wide shell alias (if any) for rm, and the per-user alias (if any) for rm. The idea of "default" kind of loses its meaning in this context, wouldn't you say? rm does one thing, and one thing only: delete stuff. Anything else gets added someplace else, in the shell, or where ever. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 10:06:43 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5bkujj$rm5@duke.squonk.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> <5bbuae$b14@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.141.185.34 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21586 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53094 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179425 comp.sys.mac.system:191785 scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) wrote: > Well how about this. Perhaps a method could be devised so that > when you move an application the database of locations is updated > when the move occurs? I know nothing of the internal operation > of OpenStep but it seems like an easy thing to implement. One difference between the MacOS and NeXTSTEP is that the MacOS is really conceived of and envisioned as a personal computer. One computer, which has one owner. NeXTSTEP is designed for multiple users. In the world of multiple users, I'm not so sure that the above is a good idea. It is probably doable, but I think it'd be more confusing than helpful. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 30 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan16.103207.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> X-Trace: 853428732/23632 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:32:07 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11027 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3549 comp.sys.next.programmer:21587 In article , ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) writes: > MI is extremely useful as both a design tool and a modification tool if > used properly. Like any other tool you can also misuse it in ways that > get you into deep yogurt. In the design case, it allows you to partition > and encapsulate various independently-useful orthogonal functionalities so > that they can be combined at will (mixins) without each feature tripping > over the others. > > In the case of modifications, it allows addition of features without > messing up the original classes. For example, you buy (or obtain by hook > or by crook) a library of objects that you really don't want to modify, > but now you want to subclass and implement streams or something that was > not included in that object library. It's easy to do with MI. Without > it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more work than you had > planned. That ending seems to be a rather broad claim: > It's easy to do with MI. Without > it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more work than you had > planned. If one wants to add "mixins" in Ada95 one uses generics, and I have not seem any claim that generics are in any way more difficult for mixins. They certainly remove a lot of the risk associated with multiple inheritance, since there is ambiguity regarding common ancestors differently overridden, etc. Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wwa.com!news.ucdavis.edu!dcn134.dcn.davis.ca.us!user From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to get started Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:14:56 -0800 Organization: Bridge Family Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: dcn134.dcn.davis.ca.us X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.6 I'm looking at what it will take to get started writing NeXT software. The price of admission, I have to admit, seems awfully high. Am I missing something? And are there recommendations as to platform (since I'm going to have to build a machine to run it). Thanks, Adam Bridge #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 16:29:09 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca7-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 16 10:29:09 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21589 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53104 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179440 comp.sys.mac.system:191791 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > It's time someone started making open OS's that > DIDN'T use command lines and shell scripts to accomplish things. We've > had GUI's for ten years now, isn't it time to stop calling utils with > them? Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix Bourne shell language is similar. Scripting languages are a powerful alternative to GUI interfaces which can be very cumbersome in many cases. Providing both just creates a richer environment as long as users aren't *required* to use a CLI. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: Mark_Bessey@next.com (Mark Bessey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 16 Jan 1997 16:27:01 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> References: Reply-To: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM NNTP-Posting-Host: bananajr.next.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11029 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3550 comp.sys.next.programmer:21590 G. Gordon Apple, PhD writes > MI is extremely useful as both a design tool and a modification > tool if used properly. Like any other tool you can also misuse it in > ways that get you into deep yogurt. In the design case, it allows you > to partition and encapsulate various independently-useful orthogonal > functionalities so that they can be combined at will (mixins) without > each feature tripping over the others. The mix-in model of OOP isn't supported very well by Objective-C. You can often achieve much the same results by using delegation and forwarding to create "composite" objects. > In the case of modifications, it allows addition of features > without messing up the original classes. For example, you buy (or > obtain by hook or by crook) a library of objects that you really don't > want to modify, but now you want to subclass and implement streams or > something that was not included in that object library. It's easy to > do with MI. Without it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more > work than you had planned. This is exactly what Objective-C protocols are for. They allow you to add methods to any existing class. This can even be done for classes that you don't have the source code to - can C++ do that? There are surely some features of C++ that would be nice to have in Objective-C (stack-allocated objects and operator overloading, for instance), but Multiple Inheritance a feature I often wish I had. -Mark -- Mark Bessey NeXT Software, Inc Software Quality Assurance -->I DON'T SPEAK FOR NeXT <-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3 Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 16 Jan 97 10:48:07 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-27.access.one.net In-reply-to: Charles W Swiger's message of Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3552 comp.sys.next.programmer:21591 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11031 In article , Charles W Swiger writes: As for the size and performance of Obj-C based applications, I would suggest trying it before worrying about problems that most people don't encounter. C++ advocates always seem to imply there is a big tradeoff here, but I cannot recall ever seeing a NEXTSTEP developer (someone who has actually released commercial software) state that the size and performance of Obj-C was a significant problem. Fact of the matter is, most NeXTSTEP apps which are slow are slow because the developer didn't spend enough time looking at what the app is doing. If your app is drawing the same scene multiple times without changing it, then even if your language gives you 100% of the hardware's capability, it could be slower than an interpretted language which only draws the scene _once_. A long-term project I'm involved with is essentially a word processor with the capability of substantially rewriting the text based on answers users give to questions. The engine is written entirely in Objective-C. Every six to nine months, we manage to double or triple the speed of certain paths through the engine, without disrupting the UI (or application model) much at all, all while we continue to add new features to it. There's no reason we couldn't translate the engine into C++, gaining a "free" 10% in performance. OTOH, that would probably expand our six to nine month performance improvement schedule out to 12 to 16 months. That's an expensive price to pay for a 10% performance gain! As with anything else, algorithmic optimizations pay off much better than micro optimizations. If I thought we _really_ had anything to gain by going to C++ for our engine, we'd be there already. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news5.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 09:29:56 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21592 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53111 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179455 comp.sys.mac.system:191805 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >> Oooh, I bet the _Unix Hater's Handbook_ told you to say that. > > No actually, it's post right here in this conference that show >examples. For instance... > >I've been tearing my hair out the last couple days dealing with >HP-UX, Hewlett-Packard's version of Unix. They made a raft of >gratitious filesystem changes that added NOTHING to the value >Unix environment. 1. I said that. 2. It was said in the context of someone's proposal to make Apple's proposed Unix system "better" by renaming things like /usr. 3. I think all the unix utilities oughta be in there, in their full glory and grime. 4. Unix may suck--all OSes do--but making a bunch of gratitous changes that would make Apple's Unix layer different from every other Unix would suck even more. Casual, everyday users should never see Unix. Power users and developers are perfectly capable of dealing with the quirks of Unix, and removing or bastardizing Unix would be a tragedy of the first order, as well as a dumb business move. -- Don McGregor | "If C++ is your hammer, then every problem looks mcgredo@crl.com | like a thumb." -- will@dyson.microserve.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 18:01:27 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21593 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53121 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179466 comp.sys.mac.system:191817 In article , mckinnon@tezcat.com (Chuck McKinnon) wrote: > Well if .apps all have to go into a certian location for the OS to work, > why not make the "Applications" folder act like the System folder. > Currently, the Applications folder is a normal folder with a special > icon, and the system will recognize it as such; also the Finder allows > for protection of this folder. What folder? This is something that came with my Mac I suppose, like the short-lived Documents folder? > Just go the next step (pun intended) and make the Applications folder > the required place for .apps and make the system treat it as such. This > would make even more sense for new/consumer user: it makes sense. > All apps go in the Applications folder, [duh!] and the new system will > get what it need. > Or is this too simple? Way too simple for me, I'm afraid, I would find that disgustingly restrictive. The notion of an 'Applications', 'Documents' etc folder, is horribly Win-like, not something I could deal with. My root folders are along the lines of 'video', 'writing' etc, not categories that are frankly only useful to the computer itself. "Applications"? What good does that do me? Useless. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 18:28:40 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21594 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53128 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179471 comp.sys.mac.system:191828 In article , jbf@frazer.com (James B. Frazer) wrote: > > The whole of NEXTSTEP, absolute minimum installation, takes up less than > > 100MB I believe. I don't know just how much MacOS uses, but if you added > > enough extras to give you the same functionality (i.e. you'd have to add > > internet connectivity, a number of applications for system administration > > etc), I wonder if you'd be in the same ballpark? > My system partition, with the 7.5.5 OS and a minimal set of Unixy utilities, > runs to 90MB. Now that's somewhat inflated by my PowerPC architecture; perhaps > the equivalent would be 60-70 MB on a 680x0. That's close enough so that Mac > fans shouldn't fret. And, believe me, those Unix utilities replace a great > many small Mac applications. 40.1 MB here on 68K 7.5.5. This is not including GX, no speech extensions, no Applescript or Apple Guide extensions (I do trim my system to be more compact). But it does include CD-Rom, open transport, PPP etc etc etc, the Netscape 3.01 Java libraries and cache (currently at 5M and full) as well as Kaleidoscope and support files, and a limited amount of Clarisworks support files, and of course the Eudora support folder *think* what else? Anyway, that's 40.1 megs in total. In a lot of ways I'd like to see the end of the extensions and system folders. One reason is that if I am going to use something like Kaleidoscope I want to _replace_ the relevant code and discard the previous code, rather than patching it in. I also don't particularly like needing to have app stuff in my system folder. Though it's sobering that even with Netscape and Eudora and Clarisworks I'm at 40M. How is it that it can require 100M? Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Re: killer apps for Apple/NeXT Date: 16 Jan 1997 01:31:25 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5bk0dd$jnq@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <32DD473F.334E@worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: ziziz@worldnet.att.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53129 comp.sys.next.misc:24637 comp.sys.next.programmer:21595 comp.sys.next.software:27389 In <32DD473F.334E@worldnet.att.net> zizi zhao wrote: > Dean Hall is looking for killer apps for Apple/NeXT OS. He says: > "So far > most of the stories have been about > Apple , I would really like to know > about how the deal affects NeXT > developers. Does anyone have a > killer app in the works? What about > game developers? " > in his webpage http://members.tripod.com/~dehall/nextstep.html One of the companies I contract for may just have the "killer app". Imagine building first class OpenStep objects (especially highly graphical animating ones) with no code at all. This thing could put Visual Basic out of the picture and or be a great way to build Visual Basic component ware. My company is in fact working on a high end game using all of the latest greatest NeXT technology. Sorry I can not give details. P.S. Renderman was already available for Mac #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles W Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Installing software, was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:20:15 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 85 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21596 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179472 comp.sys.mac.system:191833 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53130 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 16-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Scott Maxwell@nic.com >> Right now, NEXTSTEP has conventions for the filesystem locations for >> applications and other components which are supposed to be available to >> everyone on the system. [ ... ] > > This is true. I'm not debating that. But, there are quite a few single > users (not multi-user) who might find it strange not to be able to put > things where they want them. I didn't say it was a good or bad thing. It's > just the way a lot of people are used to doing things. What you've said is clearly true. I suspect that for many people it simply won't be a problem. So let's consider an example of how a typical software installation works under NS, and see whether there is anything that you feel might be a problem. Let's say you're browsing some NS sites on the web, and see some software that you want to get-- a new demo, or an updated version, or whatever. You click on the URL, and your web browser happily goes and downloads the file. Let's say this was some shrinkwrapped software which was built into an Installer.app package [.pkg], and is archived to the FTP or web site probably in .compressed or .tar.gz format (1). When the download is done, your web browser will automatically invoke Opener.app to extract the package, and Opener.app will in turn automatically invoke Installer.app. Installer.app has a really nice and simple interface; all you have to do is click the "Install" button, and Installer may ask you where the files should go if you don't choose to accept the default location that the authors of the package recommend. You can also do such things as select which languages and which architectures (if you've got a FAT binary). But unless you tell it differently, software installed via this mechanism will be put in a sensible place. That's all, folks-- one click in the web browser, one click for Installer.app. Oh, in some cases you might have to hit return once or twice to confirm where to put the software and which languages/architectures to install. If you have a reason to install the software somewhere else than the default, no problem. If you do that and still want to have the system recognize the document types associated with that software, you can make a link. So I am of the opinion that the conventions in use for where things 'should' go will be something that most Mac people will like if they ever think about it at all. [ This is assuming that Apple doesn't change any of this, which they presumably would if Apple thinks that their user base is going to have problems. ] One more thing-- uninstalling software is just as easy. Whenever you install a package, Installer saves a record of the files installed and how to uninstall them in /NextLibrary/Receipts/. Just double-click on the .pkg file for whatever it is to run Installer, and then click "Uninstall". -Chuck ----------------- (1) NeXT's .compressed is another name for .tar.Z, and is used by the WorkSpace which lets you compress, decompress, and inspect .compressed files. Opener.app is an awesome utility that understands pretty much every major archive format used: *.Z,tar,shar,lzh,lha unix compressed files *.z,gz GNU gzipped files *.taz,tgz msdos .tar.Z, .tar.gz *.uu uuencoded file *.hqx,bin,sit,cpt macintosh archives *.arc,zip,zoo msdos arc archives *.PS (Preview misses cap .PS) *.arj msdos arj archives (extraction only) *.compressed NeXT compressed files Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:44:43 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21597 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53131 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179473 comp.sys.mac.system:191834 In article <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com>, dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > Originally you were. No I wasn't. > When I had posted my reply, you were being > utterly clueless and going on about the evils of cp cp? I don't think it's been mentioned once in this thread before. > horrible rm was because it didn't ask for confirmation (which, it does > with the -i switch). Yeah, the non-default action is the dangerous one. That's great interface design for you. +--------------------------+ | | | Are you sure you want | | to explode your car? | | | | +------+ | | | OK | | | +------+ | +--------------------------+ > Are you trying to match my sarcastic wit? :) Couldn't touch it. > You're not following what I'm saying. There's nothing wrong with objects > (in fact, I love objects. I live and die for objects.) And you're not following what _I'm_ saying. There's nothing wrong with CLI's, in fact I love CLI's. (although I don't die for them, only pizza and beer). > it makes more sense to use the shell. mv, rm, ls are bad examples. > awk, sed, cut, sort, and uniq are better examples. They're designed for > bytestream manipulation, which is something that is pretty common in most > programs. Certain things don't always model well as objects; very complex > pattern matching comes to mind. myString.findPattern("why the heck isn't rm -i the *&^$&%^ default"); > BTW, I don't know what paradigm you're inferring from my earlier posts. > Do you think I'm somehow against OOP? No, do you really think I'm against all CLI's. Heck, I think VMS rocks. > What's wrong with ls? You prefer, say, dir /w? Sure, whatever, as long as that's the same API that programs use. > would ever invoke ls and parse the output; it'd be more work than > opendir(). AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! (head explodes) WHAT THE HECK DO YOU THINK I'VE BEEN SAYING FOR THE LAST WEEK?!?!?! I need more beer. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:49:25 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21598 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53133 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179475 comp.sys.mac.system:191836 In article <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, > WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced > 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix Read it carefully, I was taling about calling these things from the command line, not the command line itself or using it as a person. IE, programs should not have to call things by "pretending" to typing in CLI commands. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:46:25 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> <5bkhrv$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21599 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53134 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179476 comp.sys.mac.system:191837 In article <5bkhrv$big@darla.visi.com>, dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > There are more issues at work than just rm, and if you had an understanding > of UNIX, you'd know that. The site's administrator might choose to put > 'alias rm "rm -i"' in /etc/tcshrc, in which case prompting would be the > "default" behavior for that site. Or, maybe he thought he was clever and > put 'alias rm "mv $* ~/.Trash"' and added "rm -rf ~/.Trash" in /etc/logout. > Woo woo, there's all the functionality you were just whining about in two > lines of shell aliases that'll work across the board on all unices with tcsh. Dave, if you think that patching the problem is as good as good design in the first place, I have a Pinto to sell you. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:47:40 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bbtbb$b14@news.xmission.com> <5bkkst$sab@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21600 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53135 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179477 comp.sys.mac.system:191838 In article <5bkkst$sab@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > I understand what you want. In general, I like the idea too. > I don't see it feasible to do given what Apple has to work with > and where they need to get to, given the time frame they are > forced to deal with. Yeah, but we can dream, right? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: vgrind help? Date: 16 Jan 1997 18:52:36 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5bltdk$ioq@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.sysadmin:24887 comp.sys.next.programmer:21601 comp.sys.next.software:27391 When I try to use vgrind, I get the following: # vgrind area.cc pscat: trouble reading .ct file lpr: stdin: empty input file # What do I need to do to so that vgrind works? Thanks. Randy -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 18:50:39 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21602 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53141 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179486 comp.sys.mac.system:191840 In article <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > One thing I'm pretty sure of is that the applications like tar, emacs, > and especially cc, will not be present. This new OS will not survive > without developer support, and I mean support by current Mac developers, > not NeXT developers. Apple can't afford to upset its developers by > giving away things that will in any way make users reluctant to buy new > software. I can't imagine any Mac user forgoing DropStuff or Stuffit Expander for tar... or _anything_ for emacs (don't know what cc is, could somebody describe?) This isn't something for Mac developers to worry about. :) Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:18:48 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Distribution: world Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 35 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!hermod.uio.no!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!forge.sbt.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port10.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11035 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3555 comp.sys.next.programmer:21603 In article <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com>, MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM wrote: > This is exactly what Objective-C protocols are for. They allow you to > add methods to any existing class. This can even be done for classes > that you don't have the source code to - can C++ do that? > > There are surely some features of C++ that would be nice to have in > Objective-C (stack-allocated objects and operator overloading, for > instance), but Multiple Inheritance a feature I often wish I had. I don't understand how this works. May one create a behavior just once, as protocols, mix them into various objects, go back and change the behavior, and have this change effect all classes to which the protocols have been added? May the classes to which you have added a set of protocols be passed to methods that take as an argument any classes containing that particular set of protocals? If not yes to all the above then there is really no equivalence to multiple inheritence. As for the ability to add methods to existing classes, that is a traditional feature of a subclass. What advantage do protocols add? The class with added protocols is no different than a subclass in any sense I can determine (unless perhaps it does not add an entire leaf to the virtual tables). Anders. p.s. I'm active in this thread because I really want to see why all the excitment about Obj-C. I don't mean to be a spoiler. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 16 Jan 1997 21:17:26 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 59 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bm5t6$qji@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: ga@ed4u.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11038 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3557 comp.sys.next.programmer:21604 In G. Gordon Apple, PhD wrote: > In article , > tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote> > MI is extremely useful as both a design tool and a modification tool if > used properly. Like any other tool you can also misuse it in ways that > get you into deep yogurt. In the design case, it allows you to partition > and encapsulate various independently-useful orthogonal functionalities so > that they can be combined at will (mixins) without each feature tripping > over the others. > > In the case of modifications, it allows addition of features without > messing up the original classes. For example, you buy (or obtain by hook > or by crook) a library of objects that you really don't want to modify, > but now you want to subclass and implement streams or something that was > not included in that object library. It's easy to do with MI. Without > it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more work than you had > planned. > Suppose you have a library of objects from a third party. The library contains a base class called Base. Now suppose the library contains many subclasses derived from Base. You do not have source code to the library. Now suppose you would like to add some capability to all of the subclasses of Base. Lets say you want to be able to serialize objects derived from Base along with objects from other libraries. You could create a subclass of every object that you may want to serialize and mix in a serializer class that implements the virtual void BaseDerived::serialize(MyStream &aStream) member function. Unfortunatly, one of the classes in the library contains the following code: myInstanceVariable = new BaseDerived; There is no way to get the library code to call new MySerializingBaseDerived instead. Since myInstanceVariable is not one of the subclasses that implements the serialize(MyStream &aStream) member function via mixin, there is no way to serialize the variable even from code in your subclass. IN CONTRAST OBJC ALLOWS THE FOLLOWING: @interface Base (MySerializeCatagory) - (void)serialize:(MyStream *aStream); @end Now every instance of Base and all of its sub-classes implement the -serialize: method. The code inside the library that executes the following line now works correctly! myInstanceVariable = [[BaseDerived alloc] init]; // This code will correctly allocates an object // that implements the -serialize: method even // without being recompiled!!! #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.lang.tcl,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!solace!mn6.swip.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!pasteur.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!fdn.fr!r2d2.fdn.org!free.fdn.fr!news From: Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org Subject: Re: Help!!! Tcl7.6/Tk4.2 compile errors on Openstep4.0 black (LONG) Message-ID: Sender: news@free.fdn.fr Organization: Fabien Roy Consultant. X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <32dd6305.171085267@ceco> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:22:17 GMT Lines: 52 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.tcl:57641 comp.sys.next.software:27393 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:24889 comp.sys.next.programmer:21605 In article <32dd6305.171085267@ceco>, you wrote: > Hi Tcl/Tk & Next community! > > Subject says it all. I am encountering compile errors while trying to > install Tcl7.6 on a NextStation (32Mb) Mono running Openstep 4.0 > developer. > > Here is the output... > [....] > tclUnixFCmd.c: In function `TclpCreateDirectory': > tclUnixFCmd.c:430: `S_IRUSR' undeclared (first use this function) > tclUnixFCmd.c:430: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once > tclUnixFCmd.c:430: for each function it appears in.) > tclUnixFCmd.c:430: `S_IWUSR' undeclared (first use this function) > tclUnixFCmd.c:430: `S_IXUSR' undeclared (first use this function) > tclUnixFCmd.c: In function `CopyFileAtts': > tclUnixFCmd.c:826: storage size of `tval' isn't known > tclUnixFCmd.c:829: `S_IRWXU' undeclared (first use this function) > tclUnixFCmd.c:829: `S_IRWXG' undeclared (first use this function) > tclUnixFCmd.c:829: `S_IRWXO' undeclared (first use this function) > *** Exit 1 > Stop. Make sure you have the included header tclUnixFCmd.c #include > > > Help me please. I am a lowly sysadmin trying to write scripts in > Tcl/Tk, expect, and Perl. All of these have compiled fine at work > under NT3.51 and Solaris2.x (sparc). I'd really like to get to use > this lovely unix environment at home. > > TIA > > eric chu > echu@bpo-ess.ceco.com Hope that helps. Fabien --- Fabien Roy --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted) Fabien Roy Consultant NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA 10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23 Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90 GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:59:11 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5bgrus$nkc$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 In article <5bgrus$nkc$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, marcel@sysyem.de wrote: > > I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical > context, > > but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. > > Really just a convention so different class libraries can be intermixed > without having to extend the language. ...and... > To avoid namespace collisions, it is typical for each vendor of objects ...and... > Actually, I think its better. The reason being as > long as you keep your own objects out of the NSxxx namespace, > you will not find yourself being stomped on. ...and... > It's important because those are the class names specified in the OPENSTEP I think I get it. It has something to to with the parameter order, right? :-) Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:27:45 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32DEAB61.6FD9@exnext.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21607 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53154 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179511 comp.sys.mac.system:191855 Chris Johnson wrote: > Garance confirmed these observations, with the added detail that the > GNU implementations were less prone to being dumb hacks... > > Thus, I am less interested in finding out how you feel about it as I am > in asking Garance whether the standard NeXT stuff bears more resemblance > to the GNU stuff than the dumb hacks. I suspect it must resemble the GNU > or the unix-savvy NeXTians would be less confident. So, Garance, is it so? It depends. They've added more gnu versions over the years, but there are lots of non-GNU programs in there. For some programs, it really doesn't make much sense to make changes. They're tolerable. In other cases, there are definite improvements that can be made. For instance, tar, lex, yacc have GNU versions (gnutar, flex, bison). These are complex enough that there are real benefits to reengineering them. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mach-O and localization, was Re: Apple-NeXT Conflicts? Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 16:31:07 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32DE9E1B.6067@exnext.com> References: <5ahf5n$pq2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5ajg47$soi@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <1997010514570823842@p026.gor.euronet.nl> <5ap7db$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5argj1$84s@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5auv1t$h2c@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5b0vqa$k9@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5b1bq7$48e@news.xmission.com> <5b5vme$s70@news.xmission.com> <0mrHfT600iV945m0Ei@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179514 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53155 comp.sys.next.programmer:21608 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <0mrHfT600iV945m0Ei@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles W Swiger > wrote: > > > multiple sections supported by Mach-O are a straightforward extension of > > the venerable a.out format, which had precisely three sections: TEXT, > > DATA, and BSS. > > Ahhhhhhh. So (you see this coming), why did it stop there? It didn't, NeXT added more sections. Later, they decided to go with appwrappers, which they felt were better than Mach-O. I happen to agree, since it makes life much easier if you want to much about with your applications - no need for a resedit-type tool to gain access to the Mach-O sections. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 17 Jan 1997 00:37:59 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 46 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bmhl7$qqf@darla.visi.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11039 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3558 comp.sys.next.programmer:21609 Anders Pytte (milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com) wrote: : I don't understand how this works. May one create a behavior just once, as : protocols, mix them into various objects, go back and change the behavior, : and have this change effect all classes to which the protocols have been : added? [c/protocols/categories for most of this article] No, categories are used for a different thing, and are specific to each class. However, if we were using the composition model instead of MI, then you could modify the "composed" class's behavior, and it would indeed change across your framework. : May the classes to which you have added a set of protocols be passed to : methods that take as an argument any classes containing that particular : set of protocals? If not yes to all the above then there is really no : equivalence to multiple inheritence. I don't follow what you mean. Why *wouldn't* you be able to send an object to a method of the same class? : As for the ability to add methods to existing classes, that is a : traditional feature of a subclass. What advantage do protocols add? The : class with added protocols is no different than a subclass in any sense I : can determine (unless perhaps it does not add an entire leaf to the : virtual tables). Subclasses are awkward in some situations. Supposing I base my application on NSStrings, and then halfway through the project I realize I need functionality NSString doesn't cover. Should I rewrite the entire app to use my subclass *probably just search and replace for the most part, but still..) : p.s. I'm active in this thread because I really want to see why all the : excitment about Obj-C. I don't mean to be a spoiler. I suggest you read NeXT's book on Objective-C, which is someplace on their web site. Also, some realted links: http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/OPENSTEP/ObjectiveC/objctoc.htm http://www.batech.com/~dekorte/Objective-C/objc.html -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 01:11:48 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21610 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53163 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179526 comp.sys.mac.system:191860 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >> Oooh, I bet the _Unix Hater's Handbook_ told you to say that. > > No actually, it's post right here in this conference that show >examples. For instance... > >I've been tearing my hair out the last couple days dealing with >HP-UX, Hewlett-Packard's version of Unix. They made a raft of >gratitious filesystem changes that added NOTHING to the value >of the OS, except to make it difficult to work with in a multivendor >Unix environment. Uh... maybe I'm getting my contestants mixed up. Who was it that didn't want a hard drive littered with /bin and /etc and stuff? I think this is a good argument for leaving them in. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!nntp.crl.com!ecf2.puc.edu!news5.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 16 Jan 1997 14:12:28 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5bm94c$n0f@crl.crl.com> References: <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11040 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3559 comp.sys.next.programmer:21611 In article , Alex Curylo wrote: [Categories.] >What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the >Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on >earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? We Obj-C guys wonder, too. Categories have a couple weaknesses. You can't add ivars, for example, and you really shouldn't override existing methods. But they really are amazingly useful. -- Don McGregor | "If C++ is your hammer, then every problem looks mcgredo@crl.com | like a thumb." -- will@dyson.microserve.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 01:14:18 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5bmjpa$p1q@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21612 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53168 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179537 comp.sys.mac.system:191865 In article <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, William Raphael Hix wrote: >Donald R. McGregor (mcgredo@crl.com) wrote: >: 3. I think all the unix utilities oughta be in there, in their >: full glory and grime. > >The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a >tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their software >to the new OS. Since Apple has said that it knows that Mac developer I don't follow your logic. How could Unix utilities possibly discourage the porting of software to the new OS? -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 16 Jan 1997 15:50:38 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.71/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11041 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3560 comp.sys.next.programmer:21613 acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) writes: > In article <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com>, dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the > Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on > earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? Several reasons (all IMHO): * Two of the best features of Objective-C, categories and protocols, were not added until later by NeXT. Although the original Objective-C implementation was nice, the above two really brought a fair amount of power that was lacking into the language. * At its inception, C++ was created at and backed by AT&T, a well-known heavyweight in the C world. Objective-C was backed only by Stepstone (the language inventor) and later by NeXT. * Someone (AT&T?) created cfront, a widespread C++-to-C translator which made it possible to use C++ code with your existing C compilers while good C++ compilers were still in the pipeline. Because of Objective-C's dependency on a runtime, it wasn't easy to make that kind of translator program unless it included the code for a runtime inside of it. * Perhaps most importantly, C++ fixed a number of shortcomings in the C language (good type checking, inline functions, ...) whereas Objective-C began by focusing on adding a good Smalltalk-style object layer to the C language. Hence, many people started using C++ because it was `a better C', ignoring the `object-oriented' features for a long time. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: giddings@barbarian.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to get the APM entry points? Date: 16 Jan 1997 23:52:47 GMT Organization: Barbarian Computer Services Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bmf0f$1b5u@news.doit.wisc.edu> Reply-To: giddings@barbarian.com NNTP-Posting-Host: animas.chem.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: michael_floyd@next.com I'm trying to figure out how to write a driver that interfaces better with the APM BIOS on a Toshiba Tecra than the NeXT supplied kernel does (so suspend/resume works, etc). The only piece of the puzzle missing is information on how to get the necessary protected mode entry points which the kernel obtains at boot time, and to also know specifically what the kernel does and doesn't do with respect to APM. If anyone knows how one can get the entry points from the kernel, or knows anything further on the subject, I would greatly appreciate the info. NeXT has been utterly unhelpful so far with my requests, even though my sales rep promised this would be part of the tech support provided with the developer program I signed up for. They won't even supply a header file, though I know it exists because one of the driver examples references functions in it (the AMD SCSI Driver). -- Michael Giddings giddings@chem.wisc.edu giddings@barbarian.com (608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851 http://www.barbarian.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:10:27 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 30 Message-ID: <32DEDF93.7CA5@concentric.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50269.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21615 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53181 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179561 comp.sys.mac.system:191888 Chris Johnson wrote: > > In article <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com>, mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > > It would be terrible if Apple went mucking around trying to make > > the Unix filesystem layout "more logical". That would break many > > thousands of command-line and daemon Unix programs, and detract > > from one of the main selling points of the new system--that Unix > > is in there, if you look for it. > > It just occurred to me- Mac developers must redevelop everything, Adobe > will re-do Photoshop, they will re-develop ClarisWorks, FrameMaker, > Quark... > > ....but re-doing a Unix daemon for a market many times the original's > potential size is too much to ask? It's not too much too ask--provided the benefit is greater than the cost. The cost of keeping things as they are is not great. The benefits of compatibility with "standard Unix" are great. I can't imagine Rhapsody suffering any signigicant loss of market share because of the pathnames used for the standard Unix folders. Frankly, this issue is "mice nuts." -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 17 Jan 1997 00:22:10 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 16 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bmgni$38s$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) writes: > > What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the > Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on > earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? That's the part Objective-C guys don't really understand. (Not that there aren't plenty of explanations, but that's not the same). Of course, it's not really that bad, gives us a 'free' competitive advantage. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 17 Jan 1997 00:26:38 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bmgvu$qqf@darla.visi.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11042 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3561 comp.sys.next.programmer:21617 Alex Curylo (acurylo@inmediapresents.com) wrote: : > and add methods you please, and every intance of NSString across the : > applicaiton gets the new methods, which, when combined with anonymous : > messaging, is very useful indeed... : What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the : Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on : earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? What are you saying? Categories *do* exist. Trust me. As to your second question, I don't know. I think it has something to do with the Dilbert Principle. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!ix.netcom.com!waqar From: waqar@netcom.com (Waqar Malik) Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Message-ID: Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 20:40:16 GMT Lines: 24 Sender: waqar@netcom17.netcom.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21618 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53191 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179580 comp.sys.mac.system:191895 Chris Johnson (jinx6568@sover.net) wrote: : In article <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu : (William Raphael Hix) wrote: : > One thing I'm pretty sure of is that the applications like tar, emacs, : > and especially cc, will not be present. This new OS will not survive : > without developer support, and I mean support by current Mac developers, : > not NeXT developers. Apple can't afford to upset its developers by : > giving away things that will in any way make users reluctant to buy new : > software. : I can't imagine any Mac user forgoing DropStuff or Stuffit Expander for : tar... or _anything_ for emacs (don't know what cc is, could somebody : describe?) The C compiler, I think NeXTSTEP uses gcc, which is free from GNU. : This isn't something for Mac developers to worry about. :) : Jinx_tigr : (aka Chris Johnson) Waqar #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!chaos.crhc.uiuc.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:58:10 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50269.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21619 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53194 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179584 comp.sys.mac.system:191898 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com > (Art Isbell) wrote: > > > Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, > > WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced > > 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix > > Read it carefully, I was taling about calling these things from the > command line, not the command line itself or using it as a person. IE, > programs should not have to call things by "pretending" to typing in CLI > commands. Exactly so. That's why an OS has a "kernel" and and API/BPI for invoking system services from within programs--no CLI required. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks From: ftruillot@iprolink.ch (Fabrice FT'e Truillot) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 02:16:27 +0100 Message-ID: <19970117021627223550@ts26gep142.iprolink.ch> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> Organization: FT'e Masters X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b7 NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.158.26.81 Lines: 13 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!swidir.switch.ch!news.iprolink.ch!ftruillot Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11043 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3562 comp.sys.next.programmer:21620 Alex Curylo wrote: > What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the > Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on > earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? And why Microsoft = 80% of the personal computer market ? ;-) FT'e Il faut partir de haut pour sauter sur quelque chose. ________________________________________________________________________ Fabrice Truillot ftruillot@iprolink.ch #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!uwvax!not-for-mail From: Dan Bongert Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT OS: Porting a UNIX app ? Date: 17 Jan 1997 02:50:16 GMT Organization: University of WI, Madison -- Computer Sciences Dept. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5bmpd8$9d7@spool.cs.wisc.edu> References: <5aj8p3$rer@boursy.news.erols.com> <5amh2m$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: dukat.cs.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961115] well, if *i'm* not mistaken, some of the early sun stations used 68k processors, just like NeXT did (when it was still in the hardware business). > If I am not mistaken, it worked the other way too; NEXTSTEP would > work on some Sun workstations up to version 1.1, or something like > that. Supposedly because NEXTSTEP was developed on Suns. -- Dan Bongert | Hire the Morally Handicapped--It's More Fun dbongert@students.wisc.edu | National Institute for the Morally Handicapped herkimer@upL.cs.wisc.edu | http://www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~herkimer #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.dfn.de!Radio-MSU.net!Gamma.RU!srcc!insync!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:06:57 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 39 Message-ID: <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21622 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53201 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179605 comp.sys.mac.system:191923 Chris Johnson wrote: > > In article <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com>, mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > > It would be terrible if Apple went mucking around trying to make > > the Unix filesystem layout "more logical". That would break many > > thousands of command-line and daemon Unix programs, and detract > > from one of the main selling points of the new system--that Unix > > is in there, if you look for it. > > It just occurred to me- Mac developers must redevelop everything, Adobe > will re-do Photoshop, they will re-develop ClarisWorks, FrameMaker, > Quark... > > ....but re-doing a Unix daemon for a market many times the original's > potential size is too much to ask? 'A' Unix daemon? Nonono. All of them. Are you willing to foot the bill? Or do it yourself? Furthermore, I don't think market size is much of an incentive for groups like the FSF. The people who write those small and highly useful Unix things don't really care about the size of the market. If Apple screws up the layout, the Mac community will once again have to mess around with the executables, porting them to the Mac. The end result being, once again, the Mac getting everything later than everyone else. If Apple wants the new OS to be a useful Unix platform (and they should) then Unix power-users need to be able to type "make install" and have, say, Apache build and install properly, with a minimum of tweaking. They should not have to wade through makefiles and install scripts to fix Apple's bungled filesystem. If they need to do this, they'll use Solaris, Linux, or something else, and Apple will lose sales that they cannot afford to lose. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news-relay.us.dell.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:11:04 -0600 From: mark@oaai.com Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <853471743.14007@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jan 17 04:01:33 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 199.166.28.100 () X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Windows NT) X-Authenticated-Sender: mark@oaai.com Lines: 61 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11044 comp.sys.next.programmer:21623 In article , milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) wrote: > > In article <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com>, MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM wrote: > > > This is exactly what Objective-C protocols are for. They allow you to > > add methods to any existing class. This can even be done for classes > > that you don't have the source code to - can C++ do that? [Mark actually means to say Objective-C categories.] > I don't understand how this works. May one create a behavior just once, as > protocols, mix them into various objects, go back and change the behavior, > and have this change effect all classes to which the protocols have been > added? > As for the ability to add methods to existing classes, that is a > traditional feature of a subclass. What advantage do protocols add? The > class with added protocols is no different than a subclass in any sense I > can determine (unless perhaps it does not add an entire leaf to the > virtual tables). Categories allow you to add methods to an existing class without subclassing. This becomes useful when you haven't got access to the code which constructs objects you wish to manipulate, and so as a result, can't guarantee you'll always see the subclass you want to work with. Concrete example: I wish to create an object which can send arbitrary messages to Java objects and select subsets of these objects according to the values they return: getLastName LIKE 'ONY*' AND getActivationDate > '12/13/96' [NeXT users will recognize this as the EOQualifier object] Unfortunately, Java doesn't define a uniform set of methods which correspond to the concepts "like" and "<" for all possible object attributes types. With categories, I can add methods to String, Integer, Real, etc. and make all objects work with my framework - even those written long before I ever conceived of this new code. Without categories, my code will only work with special objects that return subclasses I define - MarksString, MarksInteger, MarksReal. In a more abstract sense, categories reduce coupling and increase cohesion in an OO design. Coupling is reduced because I don't have to fill all of my, say, UI code with references to MarksString, MarksInteger, or MarksReal on the off-chance that in some particularly funky app I may try to search my UI for all text widgets with a string value of "foo." Cohesion is enhanced because I can bundle my qualification engine and categories which enable qualification for all classes, into one package. Hope this clarifies! Mark -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 05:16:59 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 16 9:16:59 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21624 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53213 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179629 comp.sys.mac.system:191950 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com > (Art Isbell) wrote: > > > Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, > > WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced > > 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix > > Read it carefully, I was taling about calling these things from the > command line, not the command line itself or using it as a person. IE, > programs should not have to call things by "pretending" to typing in CLI > commands. As has been stated on several occasions, OPENSTEP programs aren't *required* to use Unix shell utilities. In fact, if they do, they certainly won't be portable to NT. But if I need to write a little app to do something useful under Mach only, then why not have the option of using something that's already well-tested rather than reinventing the wheel? -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news5.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 21:13:46 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5bn1qa$c3r@crl.crl.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21625 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53214 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179630 comp.sys.mac.system:191951 >Chris Johnson wrote: >> It just occurred to me- Mac developers must redevelop everything, Adobe >> will re-do Photoshop, they will re-develop ClarisWorks, FrameMaker, >> Quark... >> >> ....but re-doing a Unix daemon for a market many times the original's >> potential size is too much to ask? If it makes you feel better, call it the "Unix Backward Compatibility Box", just like the System 7 Compatibility box. You don't try to make a backward compatability box "better" by changing things around, do you? You try to make it _compatible_. Changing the layout of the filesystem or nuking a bunch of utilities would defeat the purpose of the compatibility box. When someone writes something better in Rhapsody, we'll switch over to that. -- Don McGregor | "If C++ is your hammer, then every problem looks mcgredo@crl.com | like a thumb." -- will@dyson.microserve.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 17 Jan 1997 05:29:36 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bn2o0$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 16 9:29:36 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11045 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3564 comp.sys.next.programmer:21626 acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) wrote: > What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the > Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on > earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? You're a developer looking to adopt an object-oriented language. A.T.& T. is offering a spiffy new extension to C called C++. StepStone is offering another spiffy superset of C called Objective-C. Will you go with A.T.& T. or Step... who was that other vendor? -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 02:57:45 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> <5bbuae$b14@news.xmission.com> <5bkujj$rm5@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as9s13.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21627 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53216 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179634 comp.sys.mac.system:191954 In article <5bkujj$rm5@duke.squonk.net>, Garance A Drosehn wrote: >One difference between the MacOS and NeXTSTEP is that the MacOS >is really conceived of and envisioned as a personal computer. >One computer, which has one owner. > This is definitely true. >NeXTSTEP is designed for multiple users. In the world of multiple >users, I'm not so sure that the above is a good idea. It is >probably doable, but I think it'd be more confusing than helpful. > I agree with you. Unfortunately there are an awful lot of current Mac users who would be confused if they suddenly couldn't put things where they want. Of course the Finder-like program could handle the illusion of putting things where you want while you're running it. Didn't the original system and finder not really have folders (MFS) but the Finder made it look like it? This could even solve the creator code/file type thing I had mentioned. The actual files could have the extensions put on but the Finder 'browser' wouldn't show them unless you turned on that option (along with the CLI option). I had forgotten that the Finder is basically a file browser. This could run nicely on top of OpenStep and the NeXT interface could be run instead of the Finder for those who wanted to use it. Pretty brilliant huh? ;-) -- -------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm@nic.com "We are a fact-gathering organization only... the minute the FBI begins making recommendations on what should be done with its information, it becomes a Gestapo." -- J. Edgar Hoover #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 05:00:49 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5bn121$22l@duke.squonk.net> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21628 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53223 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179642 comp.sys.mac.system:191960 jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > > Have you ever even *used* a UNIX shell prompt? It's clear that > > you don't have any idea what you're talking about. > > Garance confirmed these observations, with the added detail that > the GNU implementations were less prone to being dumb hacks... > > Thus, I am less interested in finding out how you feel about it > as I am in asking Garance whether the standard NeXT stuff bears > more resemblance to the GNU stuff than the dumb hacks. I suspect > it must resemble the GNU or the unix-savvy NeXTians would be less > confident. So, Garance, is it so? important disclaimer: I'm not reading these advocacy groups as much as I was, because I'm back to work now and generally run out of hours in the day. So, for anyone seeing this, if you've asked me direct questions and are wondering why I don't answer, it might be because I'm not seeing your article... Some of the unix utilities that come with NeXTSTEP are the gnu versions (if nothing else, the "cc" is really "gcc" :-). Several gnu utilities are provided in addition to the "standard" unix versions. Thus, there is both "tar" and "gnutar". It was claimed that many of the unix utilities were slated for an upgrade at the same time the kernel got upgraded, but then that whole project got put on hold. (it was originally intended for NeXTSTEP release 4.0). --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 00:55:59 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 9 Message-ID: <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21629 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53228 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179650 comp.sys.mac.system:191964 In article <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a > tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their software > to the new OS. Why, because they may be useful? :) -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in1.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 05:40:06 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 115 Message-ID: <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21630 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53243 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179678 comp.sys.mac.system:191997 raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > Donald R. McGregor (mcgredo@crl.com) wrote: > : 3. I think all the unix utilities oughta be in there, in their > : full glory and grime. > > The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a > tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their > software to the new OS. Since Apple has said that it knows that > Mac developer support is critical to the success of this venture, > I don't think that the inclusion of utilities (like tar, emacs, > cc, ...) is guaranteed. It depends on the utility. Things like tar, gnutar, gzip, sed, perl, and various shells are bound to be there. To many things (such as the startup scripts) depend on them. Something like Emacs does not need to be included. No doubt it will be available, though, for those who like it. It's already true that the "user-version" of NeXTSTEP does not include cc. You have to buy the developer package for that, and given that Metrowerks has already signed up to make the compiler for Rhapsody then one expects that cc will not be included in any Rhapsody product. > As a workstation veteran and amatuer user of pipes, I'd like to > have grep and the like, but I'm not expecting it. Perhaps it > would be easy for Apple or a third party to add such functionality, > but I don't expect such utilities in the basic OS. If you were a veteran of administering workstations, you'd realize that it would be absurd to ship a unixy system without basic things such as shells and grep. > : 4. Unix may suck--all OSes do--but making a bunch of gratitous > : changes that would make Apple's Unix layer different from > : every other Unix would suck even more. > > This assumes that Rhapsody will have a Unix layer similar to the > BSD Unix emulation middle layer between NextStep and the Mach > kernal in OpenStep/Mach. This is true. That is the assumption. It is a reasonable assumption given the high-priority goal of shipping a product which works, and doing so as soon as practical. > Apple could use about anything to provide this functionality, > including a SysV Unix layer, or something based on Apple's > internal work. Yes, this would make it harder to port NeXTStep > apps to Rhapsody, but if they find a way which would make it > easier to port Mac apps, they might well do it. Forget NeXTSTEP applications (in the sense of the nice apps which have GUI interfaces). Doing something based on Apple's internal work, or based on SysV, is bound to slow down the project. The issue won't be whether some ancient NeXTSTEP application can run, the issue will be whether the system, Apple's own operating system, can boot up. If the goal is for Apple to prove it's macho by ripping out every last vestiage of unix, then they need to forget about NeXTSTEP and Rhapsody. Instead, they should go back to the morass which was Copland. My guess is that Apple has already decided against that. > : Casual, everyday users should never see Unix. Power users and > : developers are perfectly capable of dealing with the quirks > : of Unix, and removing or bastardizing Unix would be a tragedy > : of the first order, as well as a dumb business move. > > It's clear from Apple's plans to de-Unixize Rhapsody that the > ordinary user will see no signs of Unixness or CLI. Whether this > means that power users will be unable to summon a CLI capable of > at least file handling or developers will have to use some other > system call to do file removal or renaming is an open question. From the various press statements which have come out of Apple, there is not much of an opening for this question. It is certain that Apple will provide more user-friendly interfaces to some rough edges that are still seen in NeXTSTEP. It is certain that they have work to port NeXTSTEP (or at least OpenStep) to the PPC. It is pretty much certain that they also have work to port various Apple technologies (Quicktime Media Layer, etc) to Rhapsody. All of those are important projects with an obvious payoff. All of those will require time to do. It is also certain that if they don't deliver some kind of crediable operating system, running on their own hardware, by January 1998, then this whole exercise is going to be seen as a disaster. They *must* deliver a product. They can not go around taking on other big projects (like "ripping out unix") simply because someone *thinks* their life will be horrible if the executable for 'grep' is sitting on their hard disk. People keep thinking that Apple has plenty of time to go off on all sorts of exotic projects here. They do not. They must deliver a product this year (as a developer version), or they will look rather stupid. They have *plenty* of work to keep them busy without some of these nonsense projects. Why add "Work for the sake of Work" when they already have "Work for the sake of staying in business" to worry about? > I think it'll be 3 months before even Apple-NeXT is sure. They > do seem intent on replacing the Mach 2.5 kernal, so I think the > kernal decision needs to be made before the middle layer will be > finalized. There are some issues which will take at least a few months for Apple (and former NeXT) to work out. Hopefully they will conclude that they need to concentrate on producing a product, and on projects which have obvious benefits. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in1.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 05:11:30 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5bn1m2$22l@duke.squonk.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21631 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53245 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179680 comp.sys.mac.system:191999 jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: > > It would be terrible if Apple went mucking around trying to > > make the Unix filesystem layout "more logical". That would > > break many thousands of command-line and daemon Unix programs, > > and detract from one of the main selling points of the new > > system--that Unix is in there, if you look for it. > > It just occurred to me- Mac developers must redevelop > everything, Adobe will re-do Photoshop, they will re-develop > ClarisWorks, FrameMaker, Quark... > > ....but re-doing a Unix daemon for a market many times the > original's potential size is too much to ask? It depends what you mean by "re-do". It is not too much to ask for better versions of the various unix daemons (bugs fixed, security improved, maybe some options added). However, it is too much work to simply shuffle the entire unix file system around just because someone thinks they have "a better way". The problem isn't just the work to do those changes, but that there are all kinds of packages on the net which think they know where everything is, and what it does. Many of those packages are provided for free, and thus it could be awhile before the maintainers get around to updating those packages. Basically, it'd be a lot of work for very little payback. Note that the world of unix has some experience with this, most notably the transition Sun made from SunOS (bsd-based) to Solaris (sysv-based). Many things have taken years to move from SunOS to Solaris, simply because there was a lot of work to switch to Solaris and nothing much to gain by doing it. If I remember right, the drive for Solaris started at about the same time system 7.0 was released. There are still shops which stick with SunOS, because it's not worth it to them to switch. Meanwhile, traditional Mac developers have at least some expectations of a payback if they rewrite their programs for the new system. They won't have to worry about (*^&^%&^ handles any more. They will have unicode support. They will have a much nicer development environment. They have preemptive multitasking. Applications are protected from each other (so a bug in one application or daemon can not write over memory for some other running application). There is certainly a lot of work involved, but at least you've got something to show for it when you're done. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news-relay.us.dell.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 04:01:14 -0600 From: szallies@energotec.de (Constantin Szallies) Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <853493588.22389@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b2fok$det2@ddfservb.technet.net> <5b383g$esi@news.xmission.com> X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Jan 17 09:47:11 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 194.77.99.122 () X-Http-User-Agent: OmniWeb/2.1.2 OWF/1.0 X-Authenticated-Sender: szallies@energotec.de (Constantin Szallies) Lines: 36 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11048 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3567 comp.sys.next.programmer:21632 In article <5b383g$esi@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > > Constantin Szallies wrote: > > And NO multiple inheritance can't be simulated by objective C's > > abibliy to forward messages. These forwarding is the same as > > delegation, you just don't have to write code like: > > Actually I don't feel that is quite correct--and this is only > a matter of opinion and is therefore debatable. But let me > explain what I mean... > > While creative use of the forwarding mechanism is not true > multiple implementation inheritance, it *does* allow > implementations to be shared amongst several objects (via > delegation), and that is a very close approximation of > multiple implementation inheritance. [cut] I agree in that multiple inheritance is not needed in Objective-C. But there are a couple differences between delegation (or forwarding in the sence of Objective-C which is the same with less code) and multiple inheritance. Inheritance is white-box reuse and delegation is black-box reuse. You can't access a delegates protected instance variables. But you can access the protected instance varibles of an inhertited class. Greetings Constantin Szallies szallies@energotec.de -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!news.netuse.de!f49x18.lhag.de!NewsWatcher!user From: becker@ps.lhag.de (Dirk Becker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NextStep 2.0 to 4.1 comparison? Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:18:56 +0100 Organization: Linotype-Hell AG Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.103.65.112 X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b24.0+ Are there any similarities between the APIs of NextStep 2.0 as installed on my Cube, and the current OpenStep / future Rhapsody? Was the migration more like search&replace NX by NS and add support for a bunch of new classes, or is it gone into a totally different direction? I won't shell out $5000 from my hobbyist etat to get an up-to-date developer release bound to a doomed hardware, and with pricier alternatives in the near future through Metrowerks and Apple. OTOH it would be nice to have an early look at the next MacOS ... Dirk #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-15.sprintlink.net!wellspring.us.dg.com!usenet_mail From: Yomama Sophat Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.m68k,comp.misc,gnu.utils,alt.comp.hardware,comp.lang.asm,comp.os.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.misc Subject: Help: need info on Motrola "S" hex format Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:39:00 -0500 Organization: Data General Corporation, Westboro, MA Lines: 2 Message-ID: <32DF9D14.6FD8@inigo.us.dg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: audfw7.us.dg.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10575 comp.sys.m68k:8485 comp.misc:26173 gnu.utils:14 alt.comp.hardware:1997 comp.lang.asm:66 comp.os.misc:4640 comp.sys.next.programmer:21634 comp.sys.misc:5071 Any information out there? I need to write a program that outputs such files. Thanks in advance. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:21:32 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5boces$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 17 11:21:32 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21635 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53270 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179723 comp.sys.mac.system:192033 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art > Isbell) wrote: > > > As has been stated on several occasions, OPENSTEP programs aren't > > *required* to use Unix shell utilities. > > Yes I know, but also look at the many examples of those that _do_. We probably wouldn't have these examples to look at (and more importantly, *use*) if these shell utilities weren't available *and* their functionality wasn't duplicated in functional or class APIs. You made the point that if all the functionality of shell utilities were available in function or class libraries, then these shell utilities wouldn't be necessary for apps to use. This is a valid point, but one which hasn't been achieved yet. It's a worthy goal, but until that happens, don't rip out the shell utilities just to save a few MB of cheap disk space. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:40:37 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21636 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53278 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179736 comp.sys.mac.system:192042 In article <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > Uh... maybe I'm getting my contestants mixed up. Who was it that didn't > want a hard drive littered with /bin and /etc and stuff? I think this is > a good argument for leaving them in. Actually it's a great arguement for getting rid of them. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:44:50 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21637 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53280 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179738 comp.sys.mac.system:192043 In article <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: > Exactly so. That's why an OS has a "kernel" and and API/BPI for invoking > system services from within programs--no CLI required. Exactly so, so why should be have the later at all unless you want it? If all the applications called the API's (notably if those API's were clean and OOPS based) there seems to be no use for the shell and utils except for scripting. However this does not appear to be what actually happens. Lots of code examples posted here to bolster the "we need grep because..." indeed do exactly this, stream their parameters to text and send them out to the shell. grep comes to mind, I'm sure you can think of other examples. Then they claim this is a good thing, that you can do this. My point is, and has been, that thse utilties, like every other one, should be directly accessable via API's, preferably OOPS based ones. Look, the NeXT is considered to be one of the best OS's about because of it's great OOPS libs for the GUI. Imagine if the same were true of _all_ calls. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:46:01 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21638 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53281 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179739 comp.sys.mac.system:192044 In article <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > As has been stated on several occasions, OPENSTEP programs aren't > *required* to use Unix shell utilities. Yes I know, but also look at the many examples of those that _do_. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:50:37 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21639 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53282 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179740 comp.sys.mac.system:192045 In article <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net>, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > If you were a veteran of administering workstations, you'd realize > that it would be absurd to ship a unixy system without basic things > such as shells and grep. Well who said anything about a Unixy system? Apple didn't buy NeXT for Unix, they bought if for OpenStep and the underlying OS (which, yes, is Unixy). > This is true. That is the assumption. It is a reasonable assumption > given the high-priority goal of shipping a product which works, > and doing so as soon as practical. Given. > If the goal is for Apple to prove it's macho by ripping out every I think Apple's only real interest in the project is to get a working OS that is clean and doesn't have warts. Seeing as OpenStep runs over NT, it's demonstratable that you can rip out ALL the Unix utils and end up with a working system. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!sugee From: sugee@imap2.asu.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Cost of a NeXT Web Site? Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:15:20 GMT Organization: Arizona State University Lines: 84 Message-ID: <5boc38$4dn@news.asu.edu> References: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> <5bk8vv$3im@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: general1.asu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hello Scott, Although I didn't think to specifically ask for this, you provided great information to learn to help assess what the costs of doing things like this are. Knowing how long these projects can take, is an excellent start in the right direction and in fact help me to see what other aspects of the picture I should be inquiring about at also. See the clip of another follow-up post I did below. __________________ Hello Tim, Thank you for your reply. Please forgive me if my post was not clear enough. But, what I am very curious to find out, although I recognize that this is something which people may not be so willing to provide, is learning what NeXT and other developers are charging for these web sites and how much time they are taking to develop and what are exact or rough hourly charges. In other words, I would appreciate learning more about what the exact or estimated breakdown and total cost to the customer for something like this? Come to think of it, and something that another poster, a Scott A., was kind enough to offer, learning about what the development time of these sites would be great too along with this other information? This way, it can be compared to how much time and effort it would take using other tools on the market to try and accomplish the same or close to the same thing. I hope that this clarifies what I am asking. Cheer for the New Year! Sue <...my (Sue's) post deleted...> : Sue, I think you would have to be looking at a developers' license : (enterprise as they are calling it now) for $5000 and the WebObjects : product which will run you around $25,000 from my memories :) I am : not sure exactly what this gets you because there are issues of linking : to databases etc that could require extra costs but I think that $30,000 : will pretty much cover your up-front costs. : Tim Triemstra ....... TimT@ASIAtlanta.com : Alpha Star International, Atlanta GA USA Scott Anguish (sanguish@digifix.com) wrote: : On 01/15/97, sugee@imap2.asu.edu wrote: : > : >I doubt that many advocates and customers like Chylser, CyberSlice, : >Nissan, and etc. as the list goes on, will argue about the merits of : >using NeXT's Web technologies for deploying their Web sites. We have all : >heard plenty and are proud of what is being accomplished. : > : >However, what I haven't heard anything about, something which curiously : >dawned on me recently and after reviewing what some of these folks are : >doing, is the cost of implementing and deploying these Web Sites. Can : >anybody provide approximate costs or actual figures of sites like these? : >I do respect people's anonymity. : > : Thats likely not something that you're going to have much luck : finding out, the spectrum is pretty wide there. : There are some WebObjects projects like Stepwise (a : NEXTSTEP/OpenStep product registry) that are based on EOF and WOF and it : took perhaps 20-40 hours to implement. (The back end OpenStep UI has : probably taken about as long). Of course I've re-written it a number of : times now so thats a rather poor example. : I've written sample catalog applications in WebObjects in a matter : of a weekend. : However I know of _much_ larger scale projects that have been in : development for 6-8 months with a pretty good team of people on it (4-6).. : : -- : Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS : sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!sugee From: sugee@imap2.asu.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Cost of a NeXT Web Site? Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:17:17 GMT Organization: Arizona State University Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5boc6t$4dn@news.asu.edu> References: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> <5bk8vv$3im@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: general1.asu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] P.S. I can understand people being a bit tight lipped about this. However, if I am able to get a survey or cross-section, this would give me a fair idea I think. Scott Anguish (sanguish@digifix.com) wrote: : On 01/15/97, sugee@imap2.asu.edu wrote: : > : >I doubt that many advocates and customers like Chylser, CyberSlice, : >Nissan, and etc. as the list goes on, will argue about the merits of : >using NeXT's Web technologies for deploying their Web sites. We have all : >heard plenty and are proud of what is being accomplished. : > : >However, what I haven't heard anything about, something which curiously : >dawned on me recently and after reviewing what some of these folks are : >doing, is the cost of implementing and deploying these Web Sites. Can : >anybody provide approximate costs or actual figures of sites like these? : >I do respect people's anonymity. : > : Thats likely not something that you're going to have much luck : finding out, the spectrum is pretty wide there. : There are some WebObjects projects like Stepwise (a : NEXTSTEP/OpenStep product registry) that are based on EOF and WOF and it : took perhaps 20-40 hours to implement. (The back end OpenStep UI has : probably taken about as long). Of course I've re-written it a number of : times now so thats a rather poor example. : I've written sample catalog applications in WebObjects in a matter : of a weekend. : However I know of _much_ larger scale projects that have been in : development for 6-8 months with a pretty good team of people on it (4-6).. : : -- : Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS : sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:16:19 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 56 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 17 11:16:19 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11049 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3568 comp.sys.next.programmer:21642 milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) wrote: > But i have a few concerns. Using categories do i have access to private > members? If so, I see a danger, in that I could develop a set of > categories which would become invalid when the purveyer of my library > modified private data or method members. Objective-C supports private, protected, and public instance variables, but all methods (member functions in C++-speak) are public. Of course, one must be aware of their existance to use them, so the interface documentation can "advertise" only those methods that one wishes to make public. Methods defined in categories are first-class methods - i.e., they have the same access to instance variables as the methods defined in the main implementation and can invoke all methods whether they're defined in the main implementation or in other categories. But a familiar caveat applies: those who use private, undocumented methods are likely to be burned if the original implementations of these private methods change. Instance variables cannot be renamed, removed, or added without causing lots of grief, so that's not likely to happen. > More often I have wanted to modify the behavior of an existing method in a > base class (say there is a bug in the library). Is there any way I do that > in Obj-C? Or would I need to change the library source? Glad you asked :-) We have found this to be one of the most powerful features of Objective-C. We have fixed bugs in some of NeXT's libraries using Objective-C's posing capability - a class can pose as another class so that any message sent to any object of the original class will be handled by the posing class, and any subclass object that inherits the from the posed class will use any method implemented by the poser that hasn't been overridden - i.e., the poser class replaces the posed class totally - its existence is transparent. This applies to messages sent internally within the library implementation as well!! Try that in C++ :-) Of course, there's a downside as well (the "no free lunch" principle is absolute :-) If you change the behavior of a method using posing, then you will likely break something in the library. Posing is implemented by subclassing the class to be posed (the buggy class in your example), overriding methods to be replaced (a superclass implementation can be invoked in the override if desired as with any subclass), and sending the posing class object a poseAsClass: message (each Objective-C class is a class object that can implement class methods and can thus receive messages): [PosedClass poseAsClass:[PosingClass class]] Posing has the same restriction as categories: no instance variables can be added. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!132.175.109.6!news.sandia.gov!nntp.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Mystery bug from hell Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:06:19 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 109 Message-ID: <5bnmfb$7q1@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I've got a bug that depends on the order in which I declare two fields in a global structure variable. My hunch is that I'm doing something wrong when declaring global varibles. Everything works when I declare a structure like this: typedef struct { char recordFD; char Field_1; char Field_2; } menu_struct; But the bug occurs when I declare it like this: typedef struct { char recordFD; char Field_2; char Field_1; } menu_struct; I have had wierd problems before from variables declared outside of a method's interface. But I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Here is a sketch of the program structure, in 3 abbreviated files: A header file, "global.h" is imported into all the other source code files: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- #import typedef struct { char recordFD; char Field_2; char Field_1; } menu_struct; void Assign_with_Function (); extern menu_struct m; ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A file "Controller.m" contains the GUI methods, and has the bug: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- #import "Controller.h" #import "global.h" menu_struct m; /* Home of the declaration */ @implementation Controller - mainMethod:sender { Assign_with_Function(); /* Assigning through a function call works fine */ [self Assign_with_Method:self]; /* Assigning through a method gives the bug */ return self; } - Assign_with_Method:sender { printf("m.Field_1 = %c, m.Field_2 = %c\n", m.Field_1 , m.Field_2); /* produces: m.Field_1 = sprintf(&m.Field_1, "y"); printf("m.Field_1 = %c, m.Field_2 = %c\n", m.Field_1 , m.Field_2); /* produces: m.Field_1 = y, m.Field_2 = sprintf(&m.Field_2, "y"); printf("m.Field_1 = %c, m.Field_2 = %c\n", m.Field_1 , m.Field_2); /* THE BUG!! Now you get : m.Field_1 = return self; } @end ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The function "Assign_with_Function()" is defined in its own file "Assign.c", and works fine: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- #include "head.h" void Assign_with_Function () { sprintf(&m.Field_1, "y"); sprintf(&m.Field_2, "y"); } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The bug is that the variable "m.Field_1" loses its assigned value when "m.Field_2" is assigned. Any tips will be GREATLY appreciated. ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!EU.net!sun4nl!icgned!news From: tom@icgned.nl (Tom Hageman) Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ganymedes Message-ID: Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: IC Group X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82 [trh1]) References: <32D18DED.277F@ntplx.net> <0k20yMppj+2S091yn@mindlink.net> <5b0rno$48e@news.xmission.com> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:35:49 GMT Lines: 60 don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote: >stephen_ma@mindlink.net (Stephen Ma) wrote: >> [...] I'd like to ask one >> question though: occasionally I see code that uses expressions like >> >> @"string" >> @(..., ..., ...) >> >> What are these things? There's no mention of them in NeXT's >> Objective-C book. > >This is syntactic sugar--almost a macro. The first one creates >an NSString object with the specified value and the second creates >an NSArray populated with the comma delimited list of objects >between the parenthesis. Pretty simple stuff and a recent addition >to the compiler as of the creation of the NeXT FoundationKit. Really? (No question about the NSString construct, but this is the first I heard of the NSArray one.) When I tried to compile the following test code: --- @array.m --- #if (NS_TARGET_MAJOR <= 3) #import #import #else #import #endif void test() { id array = @(@"aap", @"noot", @"mies"); // test @(..., ...) } --- I got the following errors: cc -c @array.m @array.m: In function `test': @array.m:10: invalid identifier `@' @array.m:10: warning: initialization makes pointer from integer without a cast Using both the NS3.3 and OS/Mach 4.1 compiler. Maybe it does work with the OS/NT or the latest gcc compiler, I haven't checked. It is possible to get about the same effect by defining a macro like: #define @(objects...) [NSArray arrayWithObjects:objects, nil] but this would (a) use a gcc-specific preprocessor feature, and (b) it does not yield an array constant like @"string" yields a string constant. In the same vein: should @123 or @45.678 yield NSNumbers? :-) -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Ed is the standard text editor" __/ _/_/ -- Unix Programmer's Manual #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:28:44 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bocsc$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 17 11:28:44 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21645 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53307 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179781 comp.sys.mac.system:192067 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Seeing as OpenStep runs over NT, > it's demonstratable that you can rip out ALL the Unix utils and end up > with a working system. But you and I don't know whether OPENSTEP/Mach relies on Unix shell utilities and whether OPENSTEP/NT replaces this reliance with DOS utilities that are available under NT (probably not likely considering the paucity of functionality available with DOS utilities under NT compared with the richness Unix includes). OPENSTEP isn't a total self-contained cocoon. It depends on functionality offered by the underlying operating system. If you start ripping out this functionality, you may break things. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!shelob.afs.com!news From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 17 Jan 1997 18:20:50 GMT Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bofu2$5ks@shelob.afs.com> References: <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.203 A quick followup to one of Art's excellent comments. Art Isbell writes > Instance variables cannot be renamed, removed, or added without > causing lots of grief, so that's not likely to happen. More precisely, to write a category, you need access to the class's @interface (.h) file. If the original author adds an ivar, or changes the argument list for a method you have overridden, they must provide a fresh copy of the @interface. At that point, if you have set up a proper make-depend environment, your code will realize automatically that it needs to be recompiled. As to hiding private methods: The usual way to do this is by defining the private methods at the top of the @implementation module, rather than as part of the @interface. This is good enough to keep them away from casual hackers. A dedicated hacker, however, can run AppInspector and assemble a definitive list of avauilable methods for a class at runtime, including any categories or poseAs: methods that were loaded dynamically. This can be dangerous and desperate, but some of us have done it. 8^) Which brings me to my last point: Apple can end the desperation by RELEASING THE DAMN SOURCE CODE to the various Kits. You can get source for Delphi. You can get source for MFC. You can get source for almost any third-party object library. I know I've been a broken record about this topic for five years, but now is the time to change this policy. Everyone could get their work done a LOT faster. -- Gregory H. Anderson | "I wander'd off by myself, In the Crystal Ball/Star Gazer | mystical moist night-air, and from Anderson Financial Systems | time to time, Look'd up in perfect greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | silence at the stars." Walt Whitman #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 17 Jan 1997 19:32:26 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21647 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53316 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179789 comp.sys.mac.system:192086 Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: : In article <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: : : > The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a : > tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their software : > to the new OS. : : Why, because they may be useful? :) Example, does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup utility with a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin or Dantz who make backup software more or less eager to port to Rhapsody? I think less likely, because the number of potential buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the existance of tar and freeware extentions. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 13:13:53 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21648 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53317 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179790 comp.sys.mac.system:192087 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > If all the applications called the API's (notably if those API's were > clean and OOPS based) there seems to be no use for the shell and utils > except for scripting. Or for the people who prefer using a CLI to a GUI in order to perform some tasks. > Lots of code examples posted here to bolster the "we need grep > because..." indeed do exactly this, stream their parameters to text > and send them out to the shell. grep comes to mind, I'm sure you can You don't have to send them out to the shell, you can fork 'grep' directly. grep isn't a bad example, actually. Even in our object-oriented world, plenty of things (such as mail folders) are stored as text, and some of the greps are incredibly fast at searching such files. The overhead of forking a process is often less than that of actual searching. (Take a look at the integrated Agrep/Glimpse text search engine. It's really nice.) Another good example might be using a Unix mail transfer agent to deliver mail. > Then they claim this is a good thing, that you can do this. My point > is, and has been, that thse utilties, like every other one, should be > directly accessable via API's, preferably OOPS based ones. It is certainly cleaner that way. I would like to see more Unix utilities have their core functionality folded out into separate libraries, with the CLI utils being mostly wrappers to those APIs. However, practically speaking, it is just plain a lot less work to put OOP wrappers around existing CLI programs. Maybe we will eventually see a bunch of Unix utils make the transition (for example, GNU has a regular-expression library that a number of their programs share), in reality wrappering CLI programs is often nearly as good and requires less effort. It might be a good strategy to put OOP wrappers around command-line utilities and then slowly turn things around and transition the utilities to wrappers around libraries. (OOP libraries may or may not be desirable, depending on how well you can abstract the interfaces away from particular languages. Unfortunately, some solutions to do this, like CORBA, are a lot uglier than language-dependent ones like Objective-C.) -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 17 Jan 97 12:50:22 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-19-6.access.one.net In-reply-to: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu's message of 16 Jan 1997 20:07:06 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21649 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53318 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179791 comp.sys.mac.system:192088 In article <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) writes: Donald R. McGregor (mcgredo@crl.com) wrote: : 3. I think all the unix utilities oughta be in there, in their : full glory and grime. The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their software to the new OS. Since Apple has said that it knows that Mac developer support is critical to the success of this venture, I don't think that the inclusion of utilities (like tar, emacs, cc, ...) is guaranteed. I would guess that any developers who's contribution to the platform consists of things like grep and find isn't going to be that wonderful of a developer to have in any case. I'd rather see developers concentrate on _real_ problems, like decent workflow applications and games. On the other hand, if you _have_ to port things like grep to make the platform usable, that's a big disincentive for developers. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 17 Jan 97 12:56:37 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 27 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-19-6.access.one.net In-reply-to: acurylo@inmediapresents.com's message of Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:09:40 -0800 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11051 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3570 comp.sys.next.programmer:21650 In article , acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) writes: What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? To be frank, it's because Objective-C is too easy. No, wait, before you go "huh?", hear me out. Way Back When, apps were almost uniformly control-driven. We had flow charts, top-down design, etc, etc. The background of C++ is more control-driven, while the background of Objective-C (Smalltalk) was more event-driven. At the time, this was somewhat of a big concern, because you had to buy into a couple paradigm shifts all at once. Programming NeXT's AppKit is very Zen-like - rather than hunting things down and controlling them, you "float", waiting for things to happen. Objective-C in an event-driven environment was very easy to use, but it was too much of a change. Nowadays, most everything is event-driven ... and C++ just looks _horrid_. Unfortunately, it's really much too late to fix things. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!shelob.afs.com!news From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mystery bug from hell Date: 17 Jan 1997 18:31:43 GMT Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5bogif$5m5@shelob.afs.com> References: <5bnmfb$7q1@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.203 Lee Altenberg writes > [most of bug descrition snipped] > sprintf(&m.Field_1, "y"); This line is the problem. Remember, to the compiler, that "y" is a two-byte string: 'y' + NUL terminator. That has the effect of wiping out the next byte in the struct when you do the sprintf. You have to change that to m.Field_1 = 'y'; The only reason you don't get a SIGSEGV on the second assignment is that you have a three-byte struct which is padded to four automatically (except on m68k, which allows tight, odd alignments). -- Gregory H. Anderson | "I wander'd off by myself, In the Crystal Ball/Star Gazer | mystical moist night-air, and from Anderson Financial Systems | time to time, Look'd up in perfect greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) | silence at the stars." Walt Whitman #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.enteract.com!news.inetnebr.com!news.inetnebr.com!not-for-mail From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mystery bug from hell Date: 17 Jan 1997 12:32:30 -0600 Organization: Internet Nebraska Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5bogju$ps7@falcon.inetnebr.com> References: <5bnmfb$7q1@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: falcon.inetnebr.com NNTP-Posting-User: bettis X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 #1 (NOV) altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) writes: >typedef struct >{ > char recordFD; > char Field_1; > char Field_2; >} menu_struct; Here is your problem: > sprintf(&m.Field_1, "y"); > sprintf(&m.Field_2, "y"); This is basic C. All strings are numm-terminated. So with you call sprintf it writes 2 bytes, 'y' and 0. One goes in the char Field_1 and the other tromps Field_2. make it. m.Field_1 = 'y'; m.Field_2 = 'y'; #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-admin From: rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com (Rajnish Dogra) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mystery bug from hell Date: 17 Jan 1997 19:44:23 GMT Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 110 Message-ID: <5bokqn$6r4@news.internetmci.com> References: <5bnmfb$7q1@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tsabin.metro.mci.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Hi, altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) wrote: >I've got a bug that depends on the order in which I declare two fields in a >global structure variable. My hunch is that I'm doing something wrong when >declaring global varibles. Everything works when I declare a structure like Rule No. 1 from Comp Sci Avoid using global variables. >this: > >typedef struct >{ > char recordFD; > char Field_1; > char Field_2; >} menu_struct; > >But the bug occurs when I declare it like this: > >typedef struct >{ > char recordFD; > char Field_2; > char Field_1; >} menu_struct; > >I have had wierd problems before from variables declared outside of a method's >interface. But I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Here is a sketch of the >program structure, in 3 abbreviated files: > >A header file, "global.h" is imported into all the other source code files: > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- >#import > >typedef struct >{ > char recordFD; > char Field_2; > char Field_1; >} menu_struct; > >void Assign_with_Function (); > >extern menu_struct m; > >The function "Assign_with_Function()" is defined in its own file "Assign.c", and >works fine: > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- >#include "head.h" > >void Assign_with_Function () >{ > sprintf(&m.Field_1, "y"); > sprintf(&m.Field_2, "y"); >} >-------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- ==================================================================== > man sprintf PRINTF(3S) UNIX Programmer's Manual PRINTF(3S) NAME printf, fprintf, sprintf - formatted output conversion SYNOPSIS #include int printf(const char *format, ...); int fprintf(FILE *stream, const char *format, ...); int sprintf(char *s, const char *format, ...); DESCRIPTION Printf places output on the standard output stream stdout. Fprintf places output on the named output stream. Sprintf places `output' in the string s, followed by the character `\0'. Either put a fixed length (e.g. char Field_1[2];) in your char. or do not use sprintf instead try this m.Field_2 = 'y'; P.S. Are you using FoundationKit. Rajnish Dogra NextStep Developer rdogra@delphi.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.icm.edu.pl!uw.edu.pl!news.nask.pl!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!bertl From: Norbert Heger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 17 Jan 1997 22:55:50 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5bp01m$sb4@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: Reply-To: Norbert Heger NNTP-Posting-Host: b01.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Originator: bertl@gemini Anders Pytte wrote: > More often I have wanted to modify the behavior of an existing > method in a base class (say there is a bug in the library). Is > there any way I do that in Obj-C? Or would I need to change the > library source? There is a quite simple way. Subclass the base class, override the methods you want to improve and instruct the runtime system to use your class 'instead of' the base class: [ImprovedBaseClass poseAs:[BaseClass class]]; Note that it is necessary to perform this posing BEFORE any instances of the base class are allocated, otherwise they won't be kind of your subclass. - N.C. _________________________________________________________________ Norbert C. Heger NEXTSTEP / OpenStep Software Development NeXTmail preferred, MIME is welcome Please finger for PGP public key #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Tom Hageman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 00:52:29 +0100 Organization: Warty Wolfs Lines: 22 Message-ID: <9701162352.AA11370@basil.icce.rug.nl> Reply-To: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-User: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-Path: obelix.icce.rug.nl!basil.icce.rug.nl!next.mailer X-Authentication-Warning: obelix.icce.rug.nl: uubasil set sender to basil.icce.rug.nl!tom using -f Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.icce.rug.nl/pub/tom/Tom_Hageman@basil.icce.rug.nl.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) In article <5bihao$a0j@winx03.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>, rainer@wmax60.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de wrote: > > Maury Markowitz writes > > > I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical context, > > > but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. NS is a TLA for OPENSTEP. Um, NextSt... Oh well... Ah, opeNStep. > And I wish they had not. In Germany, "NS" usually refers to the > National Socialists (i.e. Nazis), when used in a term like > "NS-regime". Now, what is a NSWindow? That does it. This thread is now officially dead. :-) -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 19:47:10 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5bokvv$8n2$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21656 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53324 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179798 comp.sys.mac.system:192095 In <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> William Raphael Hix wrote: > Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: > : In article <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > : > : > The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a > : > tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their software > : > to the new OS. > : > : Why, because they may be useful? :) > > Example, does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup utility with > a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin or Dantz who make backup > software more or less eager to port to Rhapsody? I think less likely, > because the number of potential buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the > existance of tar and freeware extentions. > Uh.. yeah.. sure. The existance of tar and dump have both eliminated the need for any third party backup utilities on any flavor of Unix. And the existance of Wordpad.exe has completely eliminated the need for a Windows wordprocessor market. What are you smok'n? make sure you bring enough for all of us next time... -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:16:59 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a9.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21657 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53334 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179815 comp.sys.mac.system:192104 > In article <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com>, dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > > it makes more sense to use the shell. mv, rm, ls are bad examples. > > awk, sed, cut, sort, and uniq are better examples. They're designed for > > bytestream manipulation, which is something that is pretty common in most > > programs. Certain things don't always model well as objects; very complex > > pattern matching comes to mind. Here is a serious question- how prevalent _is_ bytestream manipulation in the standard Mac software base? Certainly something like an IRC program lends itself to bytestream manipulation. It is just possible that things like video editors _can_ operate on bytestreams though clearly there is non-linear stuff you could do that begins to touch on other ways of handling data. On the other hand, how does one abstract a Photoshop CMYK image in layers with a selection outline on the cyan plane that is being used to do a feathered blur? I think, though I could be wrong, that even with databases and spreadsheets the linkages of something like ClarisWorks are stepping past the ability of a single byte stream to describe what is going on. I'm not even going to get _into_ OpenDoc as an argument- first, I don't understand it myself on a techical level, and second, it's not necessary to my argument as I suspect there is a _lot_ of Mac software out there which is not handling data in a way which a single byte stream can deal with. I frankly don't have the background which is why I'm asking, but I find it hard to believe that 'everything is a stream of bytes' in Photoshop 4.0 or Cyberdog or even MoviePlayer, and even Simpletext can embed images contained in the resource fork, making a more complex compound data type that wouldn't seem to lend itself to bytestream manipulation. Any opinons on this? Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 19:20:48 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5b64qg$s70@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> <32D6499E.1017@surf.net.au> <5b5n2j$9e8@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21658 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53335 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179816 comp.sys.mac.system:192105 abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) wrote: > [...]. For a Mac user you drag something > to System Folder, drop it, and it gets put where it belongs. End of > installation for Extensions. The idea there's something that requires > heroic knowledge for installation isn't comforting. But, I suppose, a > good installer would take care of this. Practically every commercial software package (and a large number of freeware and shareware packages as well) are distributed as a ".pkg" file. To install, double click the file and the Installer.app will open it and give you a panel with info about the package (size, what it is, icon, etc.). Click the "Install button". You may be asked where you'd like to install the package (with a default given for the "typical installation"). If the package _must_ be installed to a particular place (UNIIX sometimes requires that) you won't be given the option. Then, you'll be asked to pick which architectures you wish to install, the default being only the architecture of the machine you're using. If you want to install for other architectures, though, you add them to the selections. (I do because I have m68k and x86 hardware running NEXTSTEP, for example.) After that, you get a little progress bar and the installation happens. (Some packages may ask for other information, too, but that is rare.) It is extremely easy to install and it is very nearly foolproof, especially if you just pick all the defaults. I don't think too many folks will find this onerous--and Apple may come out with something even better for Rhapsody. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-admin From: rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com (Rajnish Dogra) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:27:23 GMT Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tsabin.metro.mci.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21659 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53339 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179827 comp.sys.mac.system:192111 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > I think Apple's only real interest in the project is to get a working OS >that is clean and doesn't have warts. Seeing as OpenStep runs over NT, >it's demonstratable that you can rip out ALL the Unix utils and end up >with a working system. > >Maury No... As far I know NeXT ships (with OPENSTEP for NT) some if not all the unix utilities and even has Terminal.app. Rajnish Dogra NeXTStep Developer rdogra@delphi.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:06:19 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 64 Message-ID: <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50068.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21660 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53352 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179845 comp.sys.mac.system:192117 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy > wrote: > > > Exactly so. That's why an OS has a "kernel" and and API/BPI for invoking > > system services from within programs--no CLI required. > > Exactly so, so why should be have the later at all unless you want it? > If all the applications called the API's (notably if those API's were > clean and OOPS based) there seems to be no use for the shell and utils > except for scripting. > > However this does not appear to be what actually happens. Lots of code > examples posted here to bolster the "we need grep because..." indeed do > exactly this, stream their parameters to text and send them out to the > shell. grep comes to mind, I'm sure you can think of other examples. > > Then they claim this is a good thing, that you can do this. My point > is, and has been, that thse utilties, like every other one, should be > directly accessable via API's, preferably OOPS based ones. And for the most part, they are (but not OOP-based, admittedly). Grep is after all a program. It is not a monolithic one. It works by calling library functions--that any program can call. The reason for the CLI is that it is sometimes easier to write a short program using the CLI (especially for a one-time use) than it is to write the equivalent C program. This is partly because the CLI is optimized for doing system admin stuff, partly because it's interpreted instead of compiled, and partly because it has only data type: a stream of bytes. > Look, the NeXT is considered to be one of the best OS's about because of > it's great OOPS libs for the GUI. Imagine if the same were true of _all_ > calls. This would make it more difficult to use C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG, Assembly and other non-OO languages with the OS. Plus, it would make it more difficult to use OO languages whose object models were not compatible with the one used to implement the kernel and libraries. This is one of the reasons some people are complaining about Objective-C: it's object model is not compatible with that of C++, for example. How would a C++ program deal with a system call that expected an Objective-C class (or Smalltalk class) as one of the parameters (that is, the class itself, as an object--not one of its instances)? And what about Smalltalk BlockClosures? Or Ada Task types? Or CLOS multimethods? And the differences between OO languages with respect to type compatibility rules can also be problematic. One could perhaps use CORBA/SOM/DSOM to address such issues. But CORBA exacts a noticeable performance penalty. The initial version of Java might also have been a good choice, since I can't think of anything it has offhand that is hard to represent in other OO languages (although the non-OO langauges would still have problems). But the new version supports reflection and "inner classes," which would cause problems for C++. On the other hand, it's rather easy to interface to C from other languages. The only issues that arise are differences in String representation and multidimensional array structure--and the latter is not likely to be an issue in the case of system calls, and the former is not that hard to deal with. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:30:52 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> <5bbuae$b14@news.xmission.com> <5bkujj$rm5@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a9.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21661 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53355 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179850 comp.sys.mac.system:192121 In article , scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) wrote: > option). I had forgotten that the Finder is basically a file browser. This > could run nicely on top of OpenStep and the NeXT interface could be run > instead of the Finder for those who wanted to use it. Pretty brilliant huh? > ;-) Think of the Finder as a file browser/window manager/task switcher which operates on a 'desktop' paradigm- basically, if you have papers on your desktop one can overlap the other. You still get to read and work with underlying ones, by pulling them out and putting them on the top, and you can keep an eye on a mostly-buried corner of a 'paper' if it is showing changing content. In the 'Finder' proper, you can get to it with a single grab- i.e. if you downloaded something and wanted to drag it somewhere, and you are in an application, you click and drag on the part of the icon you can see, and it switches to the Finder, already dragging the thing. You switched- but not in two actions, switch/grab and drag, just one. When clicking on windows in other apps often it will _not_ put the click through to the app at first, because such a click might be inadvertent- this is not set in stone, it's a conscious decision by the designers, and could be otherwise. I believe the Finder handles the layering of windows on the screen, calling apps to redraw their windows in given regions. This is easily ignored by us Mac users because it is very good at giving the illusion that stuff just magically works ;) I bet there are Mac users out there who have never heard of regions and believe the screen draws entire windows, it's just that the one on the top covers underlying ones ;) The finder is pretty cool, really. Odds are Rhapsody will incorporate a lot of it. But be aware that it may not be the obvious use of copied appearance and layout- for instance, if the NeXT paradigm doesn't make much of this, it might grow to be extremely NeXT-like appearance... that just happens to handle layered windows and direct manipulation very naturally and well. (P'raps it already does- I've not been lucky enough to actually use it.) Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:20:48 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21662 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53362 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179857 comp.sys.mac.system:192123 In article <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > You apparently aren't a programmer. There are gobs of well-written > utilities around And most of them aren't standard parts of Unix, who's standard parts vary widely from Unix release to release, and vary in quality from passable to horrid. These are the exact items I'm talking about. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 14:22:16 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21663 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53364 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179858 comp.sys.mac.system:192124 In article , mckinnon@tezcat.com (Chuck McKinnon) wrote: > Just go the next step (pun intended) and make the Applications folder > the required place for .apps and make the system treat it as such. This > would make even more sense for new/consumer user: it makes sense. > All apps go in the Applications folder, [duh!] and the new system will > get what it need. > > Or is this too simple? Too inflexible anyway. I like putting my apps where I like them, I have a number of drag and drop ones on my desktop for instance. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles W Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:36:48 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 27 Message-ID: <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53365 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179859 comp.sys.mac.system:192125 comp.sys.next.programmer:21664 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 17-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > > Exactly so. That's why an OS has a "kernel" and and API/BPI for invoking > > system services from within programs--no CLI required. > > Exactly so, so why should be have the later at all unless you want it? > If all the applications called the API's (notably if those API's were > clean and OOPS based) there seems to be no use for the shell and utils > except for scripting. Because you need the shell and the utils in order for the operating system to boot in a flexible way that can be maintained by a system administrator. Furthermore, there are a large number of Unix server applications which are based off of those utilities. Rhapsody will be able to run all of the Internet server software being developed for Unix and will incorperate the efforts of Mac developers as they start porting to Rhapsody as well. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:44:49 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 143 Message-ID: <5booc1$qj@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21665 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53366 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179860 comp.sys.mac.system:192126 Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: : raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: : > The existence of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a : > tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their : > software to the new OS. Since Apple has said that it knows that : > Mac developer support is critical to the success of this venture, : > I don't think that the inclusion of utilities (like tar, emacs, : > cc, ...) is guaranteed. : : It depends on the utility. Things like tar, gnutar, gzip, sed, : perl, and various shells are bound to be there. To many things : (such as the startup scripts) depend on them. Too many things under a NeXT system depend on them. The only UNIXness Apple has really committed to is kernal level stuff like SMP, protected memory, etc. The only NeXT specific stuff they've firmly committed to is OpenStep, which need not depend on the BSD middle layer in OpenStep/Mach, as demonstrated by OpenStep/NT and OpenStep/Solaris. Does tar exist on OpenStep/NT? : : > As a workstation veteran and amateur user of pipes, I'd like to : > have grep and the like, but I'm not expecting it. Perhaps it : > would be easy for Apple or a third party to add such functionality, : > but I don't expect such utilities in the basic OS. : : If you were a veteran of administering workstations, you'd realize : that it would be absurd to ship a unixy system without basic things : such as shells and grep. : : > This assumes that Rhapsody will have a Unix layer similar to the : > BSD Unix emulation middle layer between NextStep and the Mach : > kernal in OpenStep/Mach. : : This is true. That is the assumption. It is a reasonable assumption : given the high-priority goal of shipping a product which works, : and doing so as soon as practical. I am a veteran of workstation administration, at least at the workgroup level. It certainly would be absurd to ship a UNIX system without shells and grep, but again we don't know for sure how unixy the middle layer will be. Can you point me at press info which guarantees the existence of the BSD middle layer? Personally I'd love for all of BSD to be present. But I think the assumption that it will be there could prove false. : > Apple could use about anything to provide this functionality, : > including a SysV Unix layer, or something based on Apple's : > internal work. Yes, this would make it harder to port NeXTStep : > apps to Rhapsody, but if they find a way which would make it : > easier to port Mac apps, they might well do it. : : Forget NeXTSTEP applications (in the sense of the nice apps : which have GUI interfaces). Doing something based on Apple's : internal work, or based on SysV, is bound to slow down the : project. The issue won't be whether some ancient NeXTSTEP : application can run, the issue will be whether the system, : Apple's own operating system, can boot up. : : If the goal is for Apple to prove it's macho by ripping out every : last vestige of unix, then they need to forget about NeXTSTEP and : Rhapsody. Instead, they should go back to the morass which was : Copland. My guess is that Apple has already decided against that. Apple has said that they bought NeXT for OpenStep and WebObjects. I'm not sure this necessarily means NeXTstep (OpenStep/Mach). If Apple goes with a Solaris kernal (one of a lot of options under consideration), wouldn't it be easier to use OpenStep/Solaris, which has SysV Unix under the hood. They certainly could port BSD to whatever kernal they choose, but what if a different choice of middle layer improves compatibility with current Mac applications. The (time) cost - benefit analysis might favor a new middle layer. : > It's clear from Apple's plans to de-Unixize Rhapsody that the : > ordinary user will see no signs of Unixness or CLI. Whether this : > means that power users will be unable to summon a CLI capable of : > at least file handling or developers will have to use some other : > system call to do file removal or renaming is an open question. : : From the various press statements which have come out of Apple, : there is not much of an opening for this question. It is certain : that Apple will provide more user-friendly interfaces to some rough : edges that are still seen in NeXTSTEP. It is certain that they : have work to port NeXTSTEP (or at least OpenStep) to the PPC. It : is pretty much certain that they also have work to port various : Apple technologies (Quicktime Media Layer, etc) to Rhapsody. All : of those are important projects with an obvious payoff. All of : those will require time to do. : : It is also certain that if they don't deliver some kind of credible : operating system, running on their own hardware, by January 1998, : then this whole exercise is going to be seen as a disaster. They : *must* deliver a product. They can not go around taking on other : big projects (like "ripping out unix") simply because someone : *thinks* their life will be horrible if the executable for 'grep' : is sitting on their hard disk. Hmm, seems we're reading the same statements very differently. To my mind, the assault Apple is planning on the Unixness is clear from Hancock and Amelio's comments. It sounds like by the time of the unified release, the GUI will be much more familiar to Mac users than NeXT users, certainly more than cleaning some rough edges. The question is whether the de-unixizing will be cosmetic or deeper. As someone who's life would be better with grep on my hard disk, I hope that such features will still be accessible if you want to use it, but I'm far from certain. I agree that they face time pressure but they also face pressure from current Mac users to produce a system which is at least familiar. : People keep thinking that Apple has plenty of time to go off on : all sorts of exotic projects here. They do not. They must deliver : a product this year (as a developer version), or they will look : rather stupid. They have *plenty* of work to keep them busy without : some of these nonsense projects. Why add "Work for the sake of : Work" when they already have "Work for the sake of staying in : business" to worry about? : : > I think it'll be 3 months before even Apple-NeXT is sure. They : > do seem intent on replacing the Mach 2.5 kernal, so I think the : > kernal decision needs to be made before the middle layer will be : > finalized. : : There are some issues which will take at least a few months for : Apple (and former NeXT) to work out. Hopefully they will conclude : that they need to concentrate on producing a product, and on projects : which have obvious benefits. This is certainly true. But the question remains, obvious benefit to whom. The set of projects which benefit current NeXTStep users is not identical to the projects which benefit the vastly larger community of current Mac users. I think that Apple will expend the majority of its effort on pleasing the latter group. This will result in disappointment for the current NeXT users who want NeXTStep for PPC, with Quicktime and a few other technologies. The question is how much disappointment. I don't think Rhapsody will please the people who want NeXTStep 5. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.intersurf.net!mozart.jlc.net!usenet From: jmeacham@meacham.jlc.net (The Rev. James David Meacham) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: DevTools 3.0 on 3.2 black installation? Date: 18 Jan 1997 01:39:08 GMT Organization: JLC-net, Milford NH Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5bp9jt$kl4@mozart.jlc.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: meacham.jlc.net X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 Hi All, I'm trying to get into some programming on my NeXTStation. I'm a more or less complete novice, and I'm getting my feet wet with C. Problem is, that none of the things I need (cc, etc.) are in the user release 3.2. Is it possible to succesfully install the dev tools from my 3.0 disk and use them on my 3.2 installation? any suggestions would be appreciated. Peace, James -- The Rev. James David Meacham First Unitarian Congregational Society of Wilton Center, NH e-mail:jmeacham@meacham.jlc.net 603-654-9518 (Church) 603-654-9590(Home) 603-654-2248(fax) Church Home Page: http://www.jlc.net/~jmeacham/index.html Personal Home Page: http://www.jlc.net/~jmeacham/jameshome.html #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:35:49 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.71/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11054 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3573 comp.sys.next.programmer:21667 milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) writes: > I can see how messing with instance variables would cause alot of > grief since all clients would need to be recompiled for correct > binding - thereby defeating a main advantage of Obj-C. [...] > Wouldn't the same follow with changes to methods? Even if the method > tables are not static, releases of a library would still need > consistent method tables offsets, right? I believe that each method name is mapped to a unique hash code in the interpreter, which is used to look up the method itself in a hashtable during message dispatch. The result is that adding and deleting new methods won't cause any offsets to go screwy. > Compile-time binding would seem necessary to know the correct data > offsets for mixed classes. Is this why Obj-C doesn't support > multiple inheritence? All the Obj-C developer snot like "better off > without it" and "I really don't miss it" sounds like sour grapes to > me. I'm not convinced that adding MI to Objective-C would be that difficult to do, although I suspect that it would be slow, since you'd effectively be performing a `respondsTo:' for each superclass. Note that MI is inherently ambiguous in a dynamic Objective-C model, and I doubt that any decision on how to satisfy the ambiguities is going to please everyone. If multiple superclasses implement the same method, which one do you pick? Do you only execute one or all of them? If all of them, do you return the results of the last one (or first one) or somehow make all the results available? During message dispatch, if one of the superclasses implements a generic `forward:' method, should you execute it or check the other superclasses for the method itself? What if two superclasses implement `forward:'? Any answers to those questions are *not* going to satisfy everyone, which is one reason why C++ programmers occasionally complain about the MI choices and end up hacking around them. It's also why Objective-C (and Smalltalk, and Java, and ...) effectively chose to let the programmer decide what the best inheritance scheme is. In any event, you're better off without it. I really don't miss it. :-) > The Obj-C community has listed a number of positive features, but I > find many of those features to suffer from significant limitations, > and they have not convincingly countered arguments in favor of C++. That's fair. IMHO, you use whatever language you're most comfortable with. Like I've said elsewhere, C++ is a great implementation of C. I'm not convinced that it's a very good object-oriented language, but that's because it doesn't have many of the Smalltalk-like features that I've come to appreciate in an OOL. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.be.com!news1.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!philip From: Phil Stripling Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 21:50:58 GMT Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5bos82$ccr@nexp.crl.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> : Organization: The Civilized Explorer Distribution: Waqar Malik wrote: : : I can't imagine any Mac user forgoing DropStuff or Stuffit Expander for : : tar... or _anything_ for emacs (don't know what cc is, could somebody : : describe?) Well, thank goodness emacs has already been ported to the Mac, so I don't have to forgo it. It's _very_ handy to have identical text editing capabilities on my Mac and my UNIX dial up. thankyouverymuch. -- Phil Stripling |Sorry to make it difficult to reply The Civilized Explorer |but you know what needs to be removed http://www.cieux.com/~philip/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.netset.com!tbrown From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Porting from NS to Rhapsody Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:14:14 -0500 Organization: NetSet Internet Services -- Columbus, Ohio Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp016.dialup.cmh.netset.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 In article <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu>, rlarson@semlab5.sbs.sunysb.edu (Richard K. Larson) wrote: >I realize that a gazillion issues with NeXTSTEP/Rhapsody are up in the air at >the moment, but is there any sense out there about how easy/difficult it is >going to be to move existing NS applications to Rhapsody? For example, > > - if Apple changes from Mach 3.2 to Nukernel, will that entail significant >reprogramming, > - what about the QuickDraw/DisplayPS issue? > - etc. > >I mostly interested in how the possible choices now facing Apple will impact >on the issue of moving over. Obviously it won't be possible to say "it'll be >easy" vs. "it'll be hard" at this stage. A microkernel change should pose much of a problem You can already move from OpenStep/Mach to OpenStep/NT. If Apple wants Rhapsody to be OpenStep compliant, they can't change all that much. It's unclear if Apple will do so or not (but it seems silly to not conform). I would imagine that even if Apple uses QuickDraw GX as the base imaging system, there will be a transparent access to a DPS->GX converter, so older OpenStep programs can run w/o modification. -- Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!news From: "Gregory H. Anderson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:18:26 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 45 Message-ID: <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: greg@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ivyland143.voicenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11055 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3576 comp.sys.next.programmer:21670 Anders Pytte wrote: > I can see how messing with instance variables would cause alot of grief > since all clients would need to be recompiled for correct binding - > thereby defeating a main advantage of Obj-C. (If i am incorrect, correct > me so my mental model of how the language is implemented improves). > Wouldn't the same follow with changes to methods? Even if the method > tables are not static, releases of a library would still need consistent > method tables offsets, right? No, because method tables are not maintained that way in the ObjC runtime. All method tables are constructed on the fly as extensible HashTables. There is no C++ style VMT. But ivars ARE maintained as a set of nested structs (one per class), which is why the compiler does need to know their offsets. > But the same flexibility would also make implementing multiple inheritence > rather difficult, I imagine. Compile-time binding would seem necessary to > know the correct data offsets for mixed classes. Is this why Obj-C doesn't > support multiple inheritence? All the Obj-C developer snot like "better > off without it" and "I really don't miss it" sounds like sour grapes to > me. I think it really boils down to the fact that the Objective C runtime metaclass information makes no allowance for MI, just as it has no way to point to a list of class variables (although it does have a pointer to a list of class _methods_). Both _could_ be added to the metaclass structs, but the Keepers of the Language have seen fit not to. The lack of class vars has always bothered me, but I wasn't about to go mucking in the runtime. That said, I really don't miss MI, whether or not someone thinks I would be better off without it. I find objects-owning-objects (which I described the other day) and delegation/forwarding sufficient. > I found the concept of the "poser" class pretty interesting. Thanks for > filling me in. From all I have heard, though, I would still not conclude > that Obj-C is a superior language in a preponderence of categories. The > Obj-C community has listed a number of positive features, but I find many > of those features to suffer from significant limitations, and they have > not convincingly countered arguments in favor of C++. Gotta disagree with you there. Why do you think Java is so much more like Objective C than C++ (except for certain syntacical conventions)? Greg #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 18 Jan 1997 02:14:34 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 198 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bpbma$evv$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11056 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3577 comp.sys.next.programmer:21671 Note: My reply is in generic tone, NOT specific working code. My Objective C method names may not be exact (I've used smalltalk far more than Obj-C, and much more recently). I'm conveying the overall concepts, not specific implimentations. In Anders Pytte wrote: > In article <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com > (Art Isbell) wrote: > > > > Objective-C supports private, protected, and public instance variables, > > but all methods (member functions in C++-speak) are public. Of course, one > > must be aware of their existance to use them, so the interface documentation > > can "advertise" only those methods that one wishes to make public. > > > > Methods defined in categories are first-class methods - i.e., they have > > the same access to instance variables as the methods defined in the main > > implementation and can invoke all methods whether they're defined in the main > > implementation or in other categories. But a familiar caveat applies: those > > who use private, undocumented methods are likely to be burned if the original > > implementations of these private methods change. Instance variables cannot > > be renamed, removed, or added without causing lots of grief, so that's not > > likely to happen. > > I can see how messing with instance variables would cause alot of grief > since all clients would need to be recompiled for correct binding - > thereby defeating a main advantage of Obj-C. (If i am incorrect, correct > me so my mental model of how the language is implemented improves). > Wouldn't the same follow with changes to methods? Even if the method > tables are not static, releases of a library would still need consistent > method tables offsets, right? > I think you're still thinking like C++. In C++ the class is really a structure like entity (I forget the EXACT end structure.. it's something conceptually like: struct this-class { struct memberfuncs { int *foo(); void *bar(); .... etc .... }; struct membervars { ... etc ... }; } Thus, to call foo, you need to know what the offset in the class structure is for that first pointer to a member function, because that's how structure references work. As a result, to do something like: (*aPointer).foo(); aPointer must be of a type whose class defines a foo member function, so that the type information for aPointer includes a struct offset for the foo pointer-to-a-function. You do NOT have generic object pointers in C++. You have "pointers to an ancestor which is the least common denominator of generic behavior". Any member function you wish to invoke in your 'youngest' classes via a generic pointer must be implimented in a class that they all inherit from. Objective-C does NOT work this way. In Objective-C, the struct that describes a class is more like this: struct this-class { ivar-list-type *ivars; method-list-type *methods; } (actually, the two datums are in 1 Part of the Obj-C runtime is taking the [anObject message], and looking through the class' list of methods (each node of the list contains the method selector ("name") and a pointer to the function that impliments it), and making a call to the right function. Therefore, you don't need to know any offset. You get a runtime dynamic binding of a message to a piece of code to run. For this "tax", you get true dynamic/generic message ability. A generic object id can recieve _any_ message (if it doesn't have a method, or inherit a method, for that message, the runtime invokes [self doesNotRespondTo]; ), and in order to have 2 objects that will respond to the same generic [randomObjectId thisMessage]; call, they do not have to inherit that method from a common ancestor. In fact, they could be the only two classes in the entire tree that have methods with that name. (many C++ advocates incorrectly say that "since every Obj-C object inherits from 'Object', it's the same thing".. but it's not.. in order to get the 'same thing' in C++, you not only need to have everyone inherit from the same 'Object' class, 'Object' would have to define every possible method (implimented or not)) That's why you don't have to worry about adding methods. When you load the class structure into memory, you load in the list of methods.. and when you load in the library that extends the class, you're just adding to that method list. Classes that pose don't worry about it because they just have a different list of methods, and instead of invoking "doesNotRespondTo" for methods they don't impliment, they probably just pass it on to the class they're posing as, or load that classes list of methods into their own list.. or something :-) ... Why is it different for Ivars? Because Ivars aren't handled by the Runtime. Everything of the form "[anObjectOrID message:selector]" is turned in to a call to the Objective C runtime functions. But in a method body, you don't access instance variables that way. You reference them just like local variables in C .. so they're handled by the compiler at compile time... thus, you can't change/redirect the list of Ivars. (though, if you play with the actual class structure, you can dynamically access ivars .. but that's not the 'typical' access mechanism..it's not a very programmer-friendly interface). > But the same flexibility would also make implementing multiple inheritence > rather difficult, I imagine. Compile-time binding would seem necessary to > know the correct data offsets for mixed classes. Is this why Obj-C doesn't > support multiple inheritence? All the Obj-C developer snot like "better > off without it" and "I really don't miss it" sounds like sour grapes to > me. > Again, I believe it has more to do with "following the smalltalk model of objects", where Smalltalk found Multiple Inheritance unnecessary (they did add it to smalltalk at one point, and later removed it). Thus, Objective-C never bothered with it. Compile-time binding is necessary for MI in a static-structure based class environment like C++. Implimenting the basics of MI into the Objective-C language probably isn't too hard to do, it has just never been considered necessary by those who created/control the language. > I found the concept of the "poser" class pretty interesting. Thanks for > filling me in. From all I have heard, though, I would still not conclude > that Obj-C is a superior language in a preponderence of categories. The > Obj-C community has listed a number of positive features, but I find many > of those features to suffer from significant limitations, and they have > not convincingly countered arguments in favor of C++. > Well, for one, there's only a very few new additions to the syntax/semantics of the language and its operators. It's basically the message construct ('[anObject aMessage:selector'), and the @ directives for the different pieces of defining a class (@implimentation, etc). C++ has an aditional semantic meaning for TONS of operators, and thus a new syntax for quite a few of those operators. This makes C++ a bit more arcane. You can learn everything you need to know about things that are new in Obj-C over C in a short chapter. I'm not sure _anybody_ really comprehends everything that C++ has changed since it stopped being C. For two, C++ uses a very static and limited concept of messaging, as described above. It's basically nothing more than a structure full of pointers to functions, and a compiler that finds which of your ancestors owns the function of that name. Objective-C also has a structure with a list of functions, but it's a dynamic list, not static. Dynamic binding also gives you greater flexability. For three, the mapping of Objective-C statements to C statements (ie. a message maps to a single function call) tends to be lower than mapping C++ statements to C statements, because of all of those new semantics applied to existing operators. Basically, in the same way Smalltalk is a dream for rapid prototyping, so is Objective-C (and yet, since it's also a compiled language, not an enterpreted environment, it's also good for deploying discrete end products). C++'s static overhead (overhead to the programmer, not the CPU), on the otherhand, does not lend itself to this. Obj-C also lends itself to smaller footprint executables, and simpler class hierarchy trees/designs, because the dynamism lends itself to cleaner interobject/interclass interfaces. Which all lends itself better to small, elegant, concise coding. Not to mention the general "feel" of programming in the two languages (I've done more C++ than Obj-C, by the way). My .sig could have "Obj-C" in place of Smalltalk. I'm sure some person more familiar with Objective C than I will come along and clear up the specifics of my post, I've probably made more than few detail errors... but the general concepts I think are in place. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 18 Jan 1997 02:11:43 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bpbgv$m6@sjx-ixn8.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca16-25.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 17 6:11:43 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21672 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53384 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179889 comp.sys.mac.system:192153 rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com (Rajnish Dogra) wrote: > maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > I think Apple's only real interest in the project is to get a working OS > >that is clean and doesn't have warts. Seeing as OpenStep runs over NT, > >it's demonstratable that you can rip out ALL the Unix utils and end up > >with a working system. > No... > As far I know NeXT ships (with OPENSTEP for NT) some if not all the unix > utilities and even has Terminal.app. OPENSTEP/NT Deployment includes only a small subset of typical Unix utilities with the Developer version including additional utilities necessary to build apps, many (all?) of which are GNU utilities. Unfortunately, Terminal isn't included, but sh, the Bourne shell, is included. It runs in the Windows Command tool, a lame excuse for a terminal application. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:05:57 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32DFF7C5.2090@steeldriving.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com> Reply-To: jon@steeldriving.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21673 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53394 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179912 comp.sys.mac.system:192161 Chris Johnson wrote: > On the other hand, how does one abstract a Photoshop CMYK image in > layers with a selection outline on the cyan plane that is being used to do > a feathered blur? For Photoshop/Painter, the bitstream manipulation equivalent would be plug-ins. Only that Photoshop plug-ins are far more complex and more limited in usability - writing an application that can use a Photoshop plug-in is non-trivial. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:32:02 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Distribution: world Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 46 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port12.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11057 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3578 comp.sys.next.programmer:21674 In article <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > Objective-C supports private, protected, and public instance variables, > but all methods (member functions in C++-speak) are public. Of course, one > must be aware of their existance to use them, so the interface documentation > can "advertise" only those methods that one wishes to make public. > > Methods defined in categories are first-class methods - i.e., they have > the same access to instance variables as the methods defined in the main > implementation and can invoke all methods whether they're defined in the main > implementation or in other categories. But a familiar caveat applies: those > who use private, undocumented methods are likely to be burned if the original > implementations of these private methods change. Instance variables cannot > be renamed, removed, or added without causing lots of grief, so that's not > likely to happen. I can see how messing with instance variables would cause alot of grief since all clients would need to be recompiled for correct binding - thereby defeating a main advantage of Obj-C. (If i am incorrect, correct me so my mental model of how the language is implemented improves). Wouldn't the same follow with changes to methods? Even if the method tables are not static, releases of a library would still need consistent method tables offsets, right? But the same flexibility would also make implementing multiple inheritence rather difficult, I imagine. Compile-time binding would seem necessary to know the correct data offsets for mixed classes. Is this why Obj-C doesn't support multiple inheritence? All the Obj-C developer snot like "better off without it" and "I really don't miss it" sounds like sour grapes to me. I found the concept of the "poser" class pretty interesting. Thanks for filling me in. From all I have heard, though, I would still not conclude that Obj-C is a superior language in a preponderence of categories. The Obj-C community has listed a number of positive features, but I find many of those features to suffer from significant limitations, and they have not convincingly countered arguments in favor of C++. Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 23:54:11 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21675 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53418 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179929 comp.sys.mac.system:192188 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >>I've been tearing my hair out the last couple days dealing with >>HP-UX, Hewlett-Packard's version of Unix. They made a raft of >>gratitious filesystem changes that added NOTHING to the value >>of the OS, except to make it difficult to work with in a multivendor >>Unix environment. >In article <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >> Uh... maybe I'm getting my contestants mixed up. Who was it that didn't >> want a hard drive littered with /bin and /etc and stuff? I think this is >> a good argument for leaving them in. > > Actually it's a great arguement for getting rid of them. I just don't understand you, Maury. You complain about HP making gratuitous changes in the file system that does nothing but make it difficult to work in a multivendor Unix environment, and then advocate Apple making gratuitous changes in the filesystem that does nothing but make it difficult to work in a multivendor Unix environment. The only reason I can see for that is you have a vendetta against Unix and oppose compatibility on general principles. It sure doesn't seem to be for functional reasons. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ncar!newshost.lanl.gov!corvette.mst6.lanl.gov!nntp.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Porting from NS to Rhapsody Date: 18 Jan 1997 00:13:58 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5bp4k6$7q1@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> References: <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: rlarson@semlab5.sbs.sunysb.edu One possible clue to this answer can be found by clicking on the apple icon at "All OpenStep documentation applies to Rhapsody! That means you can develop OpenStep applications today and simply recompile them when Rhapsody is released." In <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> Richard K. Larson wrote: > I realize that a gazillion issues with NeXTSTEP/Rhapsody are up in the air at > the moment, but is there any sense out there about how easy/difficult it is > going to be to move existing NS applications to Rhapsody? For example, > > - if Apple changes from Mach 3.2 to Nukernel, will that entail significant > reprogramming, > - what about the QuickDraw/DisplayPS issue? > - etc. > > I mostly interested in how the possible choices now facing Apple will impact > on the issue of moving over. Obviously it won't be possible to say "it'll be > easy" vs. "it'll be hard" at this stage. > > Thanks! > > -Richard Larson > > -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!140.162.1.25!seismo!sed.psrw.com!news.apk.net!jchan From: jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:40:51 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-8.apk.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11058 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3580 comp.sys.next.programmer:21677 I thought multiple inheritance could be 'implemented' by using Obj-C protocols and embedding several classes within a single class (pardon me if this is wrong - I've only started studying Obj-C for the last two days). This is quite similiar to Java's implements keyword(?). --- The Evil Tofu (Only Human) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!berlin.snafu.de!spamcancel!cyberspam From: TheCopyCatShop@NA.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5bp5g6$drj@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> Control: cancel <5bp5g6$drj@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 03:30:37 +1 Organization: Copy Shop Lines: 5 Approved: hweede@berlin.snafu.de Message-ID: References: <5bp5g6$drj@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: berlin.snafu.de X-Cancelled-By: hweede@berlin.snafu.de X-No-Archive: yes EMP/ECP spam cancelled by hweede@berlin.snafu.de. This is an ongoing spam whose Breidbart index already is above 20. See my report "TheCopyCatShop" or "summary of auto-cancels" in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins. Subject was: CD R Media Low Prices. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca!bstone From: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:44:22 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 26 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5boob6$1k0s@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <5boces$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21678 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53438 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179970 comp.sys.mac.system:192215 In article <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > As has been stated on several occasions, OPENSTEP programs aren't > *required* to use Unix shell utilities. In fact, an OPENSTEP program would be required to *not* rely on these utilities. OPENSTEP can be hosted on a variety of platforms, many of which do not include the utilities (or even the shell.) Nothing is going to prevent developers from doing inane things. There will be applications which break the UI guidelines, access hardware directly, delete documents created with competitor's products, rely on bugs in the API, and so forth. The best you can do is to recommend against it and raise a fuss when it does happen. Leave the utilities in place for those who care to use them. Make them invisible to those who would rather pretend they didn't exist. Rewrite the ones that desperately need it (perhaps starting with sendmail...) and we can all live together in peace. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blake W. Stone bstone@dkw.com Technical Director - DKW Systems "Art may imitate life, but life http://www.dkw.com/bstone imitates TV" - Ani Difranco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!xs4all!ztm07-20.dial.xs4all.nl!user From: rr@xs4all.nl (rr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: old NeXTStep version and PPP Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:11:46 +0100 Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ztm07-20.dial.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:15:52 MET Hi, This may not be the right place for these questions... My excuses in advance. I have a NeXTCube running an old version of NeXTSTep (2.x). I want to get my email with it. I also have a modem that came with it ( HSD InterFax 24/96 NX -not much but ok for just email, Iguess) I not sXXt about UNIX. I'm having a lot of trouble getting this setup to work for me. I want to get/send email. That's not too much to ask for such a beatifull machine. I gather I have to set up uucp. I find the manual not very clear on this, but maybe I'm just stupid. I'm also wondering if there is a version of PPP that will work with this old version of NeXTSTep. Does anybody know this ? Also, last the Cube with this version of NeXTStep doesn't seem to read macintosh-floppies the manual says it can with the help of some software, but doesn't state what or where to get it. Does anybody know this ? help is much appreciated, Rodney #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 20:57:30 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 71 Message-ID: <5bop3q$lul@news.xmission.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21680 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53444 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179978 comp.sys.mac.system:192216 raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: > : In article <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > : > : > The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a > : > tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their software > : > to the new OS. > : > : Why, because they may be useful? :) > > Example, does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup utility with > a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin or Dantz who make > backup software more or less eager to port to Rhapsody? I think less > likely, because the number of potential buyers for Stuffit is reduced > by the existance of tar and freeware extentions. Maybe, but I don't believe it. There was a program for NEXTSTEP-- a commercial app which sold for around $100--called enTar.app. It was basically a GUI wrapper around tar. But that GUI was a lot friendlier to use than tar itself. Those of us who were UNIX propellerheads and didn't mind using tar used tar. All the plain Joe NEXTSTEP users who didn't want to deal with UNIX (and even some of the propellerheads) bought enTar because it was easier to use, kept you in the GUI, and so on. I don't think the existence of tar in the system kept anyone from producing commercial software for backups. (There's also SafetyNet.app, by the way, in the same market area, so I don't think that tar's existence squelched any apps.) Oh, and there's also the freeware Opener.app, too. :-) [By the way, one thing I liked about enTar is that it gave you a browser window into the .tar file so that you could select specific files for extraction. That alone would make it worth buying for most people; recovering a single file from a .tar file never was, IMHO, a fun thing to do with the CLI. This is a place where the GUI was definitely an improvement worth paying for.] I think that argument extends to all the UNIX utilities. They're nice for those who know them and don't mind the unfriendly interface, but for the typical Mac user, they'll not be a good solution. Those users will buy third party software, which will likely mean a GUI. Another example, the free "sc" program (_S_preadsheet _C_alculator) didn't keep me from buying (and using) several NEXTSTEP spreadsheet apps! sc is nice for what it is, but the commercial apps are better supported, easier to use, and so I'll pay for them because of my increased productivity. Also, the spreadsheet apps added to the capabilities of "sc", and that added value (plus the support) is something most people will pay for...meaning there is always a market. The same sort of thing is true with a lot of commercial apps already in existence in the Windows/Mac market--there are freebies out there, but typically that doesn't keep the commercial vendors from selling similar apps. How many free screen savers are out there? And how many people bought AfterDark anyway? So: existence of UNIX utilities probably won't make a hill of beans' worth of difference to a Mac user. They'll still buy the GUI apps. Heck, I'm a UNIX propellerhead and I still buy a lot of GUI apps that duplicate UNIX command functionality--because they make me more productive than the CLI does. On the other hand, I use the CLI daily for tasks that would otherwise be too cumbersome to do in the GUI. Productivity is up when you use the right tool for the job... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:44:01 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5b42oo$ebp@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.1.6b8 In article <5b42oo$ebp@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > (2) When you compare x86 and m68k series, you find that Motorola's > FP performance is better than that of an equivalent Intel CPU. This was certainly true up to and including the 486, but seems to be no longer true for the newer Intel processors. > So you can count on DPS to take full advantage of the FPU! In fact, Can it run at all without it? I mean usefully. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!netnews.jhuapl.edu!usenet From: Charles F Waltrip Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:12:12 -0500 Organization: The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Lab Lines: 68 Message-ID: <32E0074B.2C67@aurora.jhuapl.edu> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: aurora.jhuapl.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.0 alpha) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21682 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53448 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179985 comp.sys.mac.system:192223 Maury Markowitz wrote: > [...] > Well who said anything about a Unixy system? Apple didn't buy NeXT > for Unix, they bought if for OpenStep and the underlying OS (which, > yes, is Unixy). > [...] > > I think Apple's only real interest in the project is to get a > working OS that is clean and doesn't have warts. Seeing as OpenStep > runs over NT, it's demonstratable that you can rip out ALL the Unix > utils and end up with a working system. > Well, yesssss. Yes, Apple bought NeXT for OpenStep and the underlying OS. And, yes, OpenStep doesn't depend on the particular underlying OS that Apple bought. And, yes, you can rip out all the UNIX utils and, provided you replace them with something that provides equivalent functionality, you can end up with a working system. I realize that, in saying they CAN do that, you are not necessarily advocating that they actually DO it. I believe that it would be no problem that Apple/OpenStep depends on the existence of those UNIX utilities for its operation. However, it would be a major problem that Apple/OpenStep depends on the direct use of those utilities for system administration. NeXT made efforts to avoid direct use of UNIX utilities such as Netinfo Manager for network management (a pretty good--but not insanely great--application), Preferences Manager, Print Manager, etc. It was a good start but this sort of thing is somewhat pedestrian compared to other, more exotic interests. The effort seems to have been largely abandoned in favor of more interesting technologies. Dirt and warts remain. Are they much worse than the dirt and warts in MacOS or Windows 95/NT? I think they are worse but not much worse. I think the shipping Apple/OpenStep will have to be much better in this respect than MacOS or Windows 95/NT. This is a first impression item that it is important NOT to have to overcome with later improvements/fixes. Ease of administration is a HUGE plus for the entire spectrum of users...from the home user to the Fortune 500 CIO. In fact, there ARE a lot of nice non-UNIX utilities and services that you get with OpenStep/Mach that you don't get when with, say, OpenStep/NT. Hopefully, many or all of them will find their way into Apple/OpenStep. (Edit/Mail/Digital Librarian/Fax-Print Integration/...) In the pre-Apple days, this newsgroup had a thread advocating an OpenStep Lite. I advocated an OpenStep Heavy for NT that included providing a lot of the system features, apps and utilities present in OpenStep/Mach but missing in NT. I still think it's a good idea. But perhaps it will show up for both Win 95/NT as OpenStep Heavy that includes the features, apps and utilities that will show up in OpenStep/Apple. Now THERE'S something that would make it exciting to be a Product Manager. Chuck ____________ Charles F. Waltrip Opinions expressed are my own. The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory email: waltrip@zephyr.jhuapl.edu phone: (410) 792-6596 fax: (410) 792-5597 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:15:34 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32DFEBF6.1072E12A@screaming.org> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21683 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53450 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:179989 comp.sys.mac.system:192227 Maury Markowitz wrote: > glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > > > Uh... maybe I'm getting my contestants mixed up. Who was it that > > didn't want a hard drive littered with /bin and /etc and stuff? > > I think this is a good argument for leaving them in. > > Actually it's a great arguement for getting rid of them. What argument? Please leave some context in your quoted material guys. [followups trimmed back to advocacy groups, for the sake of the poor people in *.programmer who have work to do...] -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:32:12 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32DFFDEC.74E@steeldriving.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: jon@steeldriving.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21684 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53464 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180021 comp.sys.mac.system:192253 William Raphael Hix wrote: > > Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: > : Why, because they may be useful? :) > > Example, does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup utility with > a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin or Dantz who make backup > software more or less eager to port to Rhapsody? I think less likely, > because the number of potential buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the > existance of tar and freeware extentions. There's a Mac program that handles tar, that was free (I think). Did Dantz or Aladdin die out when that came out, about 5 years ago? -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 17 Jan 1997 23:00:23 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5bp0a7$ouv@darla.visi.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21685 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53465 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180022 comp.sys.mac.system:192254 Chris Johnson (jinx6568@sover.net) wrote: : Here is a serious question- how prevalent _is_ bytestream manipulation : in the standard Mac software base? I'd imagine pretty common. See below. : : Certainly something like an IRC program lends itself to bytestream : manipulation. It is just possible that things like video editors _can_ : operate on bytestreams though clearly there is non-linear stuff you could : do that begins to touch on other ways of handling data. What's a video editor? A program that deals with a video stream. cat foo.avi |avi2mpeg | mpegscale 0.7 > foo.mpeg I'm not saying that's better or worse than a graphical interface, but i can see where it'd be useful. : On the other hand, how does one abstract a Photoshop CMYK image in : layers with a selection outline on the cyan plane that is being used to do : a feathered blur? I think, though I could be wrong, that even with : databases and spreadsheets the linkages of something like ClarisWorks are : stepping past the ability of a single byte stream to describe what is : going on. This is the reason we have applications and the clipboard, or on NEXTSTEP, services. Select a square of a bitmap in, say, NXPaint, or something, and do Services -> Photoshop -> Gaussian Blur.. It'd be good. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!blackbush.xlink.net!noris.net!shinto!news From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) Subject: Re: Encryption Message-ID: Sender: news@shinto.nbg.sub.org X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next/Images/People/tomi.shinto.nbg.sub.org.tiff Organization: STEPeople's home (A NUGI member) X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <5b37rh$ss5@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 21:48:23 GMT Lines: 52 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53484 comp.sys.next.programmer:21686 jdevlin@umich.edu wrote: > > Moreover, NEXT owns a patent on Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE) - a > cryptosystem which, according to reported hints from Steve Jobs, the NSA > regards as more secure than PGP. (The NSA was rumored to be one of NEXT's > larger customers ...) I am not sure if NeXT owns the patent or NeXTs mathematics guru...Richard Crandall (hey..maybe he's one of the reasons why Mathematica has always remained available for NeXTSTEP). Side Note: Elliptic Encryption can provide more unique keys with shorter key length the public key systems based on primes. Richard found a way to remove all divisions in the EE encryption and could replace the with simple plus and mius operations. Thuse it is called FEE. FEE is more secure then PGP since it can take a 40bit key and will cause the same amount of "cracking" headache as a 120bit PGP (ok..these numbers are wrong I would have to look them up...but you get the idea) At ObejctWorld'95 NeXT officially said that they will provide an encrption API with release 4.0. We all know they didn't. And we all know that encryption is a hairy issues in some countries (e.g. US, France) > > SUGGESTION: Apple should include a documented interface for encryption > in both Mail.app and WorkspaceManager, and allow customers to load their > favorite cryptographic engine as a bundle. This IMHO was planned and hopefully will be deliverd. > Moreover, Apple should follow > MIT's example and make a FEE bundle available on their website to anyone in > the United States and make the Objective-C implementation of the algorithm > available without restriction as an ascii file. Between FEE and PGP, This is unlikely since the implementation is something they can sell (to NSA for example) As far as I know the algorithm is described in some paper by Richard Crandall..but I am not sure if all the details of the implementation are available. But then..if it is patented you would not be allowed to implement it. > virtually everyone would have access to military grade encryption with a > consistent and well thought out GUI. This is why I won't happen :-) Governments are afraid of encryption and still hope that people will remain dumb enough to believe the claim that encryption prohibition is just to keep the "bad guys" from using it. "Bad guys" don't care if it is prohibited. Its the "good guys" who are the target. Aloha Tomi #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 19:04:56 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32D587A8.5ECB@steeldriving.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: jon@steeldriving.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21687 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53495 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180070 comp.sys.mac.system:192302 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford > wrote: > > > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to > > buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is > > stuff which is used by the OS itself... > > My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store files > she'll never use. Hmmmm. Something tells me your Mom won't be running out to buy the new OS. -- Jonathan W. Hendry President, Steel Driving Software, Inc. OpenStep, Delphi, and Java Consulting in Cincinnati http://www.steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 18 Jan 1997 08:04:15 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21688 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53498 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180076 comp.sys.mac.system:192309 raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > Example: does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup > utility with a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin > or Dantz who make backup software more or less eager to port to > Rhapsody? I think less likely, because the number of potential > buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the existance of tar and freeware > extentions. I don't think it effects them one bit. For one, most Mac users are used to Stuffit. They are not used to opening a unix window, and then figuring out all the options on tar. They will be much more likely to spend another $30 for a new version of Stuffit than bothering with tar. For two, Stuffit includes a very nice user interface. It is a "finder interface" to your compressed archive. Tar, by itself, is relatively crude. A front-end to tar might be competition to Stuffit, but tar by itself simply can not compete. For three, *I* don't use tar as a backup utility, and I'm more familar with tar than the average mac user is. I would very much prefer to have something like "Diskfit" for my NeXTSTEP system, and I've been using NeXTSTEP for years. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsout1.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.serv.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 00:33:42 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21689 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53501 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180080 comp.sys.mac.system:192315 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Standard applications can current assume that Unix is not installed. I > run about 100 applications on my Macs, and not a single one of them calls > anything remotely like Unix. Sure having the utilities allows a lazy > programmer to do less work, but I don't see this as a goal. You apparently aren't a programmer. There are gobs of well-written utilities around, and it's utterly senseless to rewrite them from scratch, especially considering that they have already gone through extensive testing/debugging cycles. Why should an application have code to send mail when it can call an existing mail transport agent? Why should it have code to search files for text when there are already grep programs which are optimized to within an inch of their lives to do this? Etc. Sure, you could make the utilities optional, but if app developers can't assume that they're there, they're not likely to opt to use them, and will end up rewriting lots of things. And when it comes down to it, all the Unix utilities comprise a relatively small portion of the total disk usage. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!btnet-feed2!btnet!netcom.net.uk!news-lond.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.dotcom.fr!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 18 Jan 1997 06:30:31 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5bpqm7$lul@news.xmission.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11059 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3590 comp.sys.next.programmer:21690 "Gregory H. Anderson" wrote: > That said, I really don't miss MI, whether or not someone thinks I would > be better off without it. I find objects-owning-objects (which I > described the other day) and delegation/forwarding sufficient. Ya know, the GOF book (Patterns book mentioned here earlier) even says that object composition is more important than inheritance. Which is what the Obj-C people have been saying all along. And that book is written from more of a C++ viewpoint, but it is also written by some people who really know what they are talking about! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.he.net!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 01:01:03 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21691 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53505 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180086 comp.sys.mac.system:192321 On 01/09/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > Oh, true enough, but there's a quality and quantity thing. I mean, do I > need all the .conf files? How about the shells and all the support stuff > for them? man pages? > Shells you certainly want, as the OS (as it is at the moment) depends on them. Man pages are not installed as standard (you have to explicitly install the Documentation package). .conf files... hmm, can't say I've ever touched them myself, and I can't see more than half a dozen of them. Again, looks like the system depends on them though. I certainly agree it would be good if AppLE could tidy come of this up... in the fullness of time :-) (Back to this "get something out of the door ASAP theme) > Yeah, but all that stuff adds up a lot in size. I'd personally rather > not have it installed unless I want it. > I'm not sure how much superfluous stuff there really is... much of the space is taken up with things like libraries (20+MB in /usr/lib), the kernel etc. The Bourne shell, for example, is only 120K. The whole of NEXTSTEP, absolute minimum installation, takes up less than 100MB I believe. I don't know just how much MacOS uses, but if you added enough extras to give you the same functionality (i.e. you'd have to add internet connectivity, a number of applications for system administration etc), I wonder if you'd be in the same ballpark? Say 50MB? Or am I being wildly "pessimistic" (I may be, I have no idea... I have a copy of an upgrade for 7.5.5 here, but can't work out the sizes of the relevant files). > Absolutely, and they should get to install it off the same CD. > As others have pointed out, I suspect that so many things would depend on whatever you would like to be made optional that the majority of users would end up having to install this stuff later anyway, after the inconvenience of finding out the hard way that they did need it. At a time when, as I said before, it seems to be difficult to find a hard drive smaller than 1GB, for the sake of a few tens of MB at the most, it doesn't seem worth worrying about "wasted space". (Your concerns about hiding things from the user are fair enough, and I hope others have shown that NeXT had already taken effective steps to address that -- hopefully AppLE can now take a few steps further). Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!jbf From: jbf@frazer.com (James B. Frazer) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 01:20:37 -0500 Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: frazer.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21692 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53512 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180092 comp.sys.mac.system:192325 In article <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > The whole of NEXTSTEP, absolute minimum installation, takes up less than > 100MB I believe. I don't know just how much MacOS uses, but if you added > enough extras to give you the same functionality (i.e. you'd have to add > internet connectivity, a number of applications for system administration > etc), I wonder if you'd be in the same ballpark? My system partition, with the 7.5.5 OS and a minimal set of Unixy utilities, runs to 90MB. Now that's somewhat inflated by my PowerPC architecture; perhaps the equivalent would be 60-70 MB on a 680x0. That's close enough so that Mac fans shouldn't fret. And, believe me, those Unix utilities replace a great many small Mac applications. Barney #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: dlehn@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (David I. Lehn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: OpenStep game development Date: 18 Jan 1997 10:02:35 GMT Organization: Virginia Tech Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5bq73r$e18$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Reply-To: dlehn@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 BETA-950824-color PL0] How are developers supposed to do OpenStep game programming? Apple has *Sprocket. M$ has Direct*. OpenStep has... Is Apple going to push Sprockets for Rhapsody? If you want code to be portable then you end up developing your own layer so you can have DirectX, Sprockets/QuickDraw/QD3D, GNUstep stuff, etc depending on platform. This is either less than ideal or a business opportunity. ;) Perhaps Apples code will work on M$ platforms as OS/NT does now. But that leaves GNUstep portability left to keeping up with non-OpenStep APIs. Maybe NeXT/Apple engineers will sit down and develop great OpenStep extensions to handle sound,various input devices,3D, speach,network,buffered drawing,etc. GNUstep support as well would make apps very portable. -dave --- David I. Lehn | http://www.vt.edu:10021/D/dlehn/ Computer Engineering Student @ Virginia Tech in sunny Blacksburg, VA #################################################################### Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:22:10 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 56 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port5.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11060 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3592 comp.sys.next.programmer:21694 In article <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com>, greg@afs.com wrote: > No, because method tables are not maintained that way in the ObjC > runtime. All method tables are constructed on the fly as extensible > HashTables. There is no C++ style VMT. But ivars ARE maintained as a set > of nested structs (one per class), which is why the compiler does need > to know their offsets. If i'd thought more carefully I would have realized some kind of method selector would be necessary to support the messaging schemes that'd been described to me. I should have known as I've built that sort of method dispatching on top of other languages in the past. So what kind of relationship exists between the number of methods in a class, the depth of subclassing, and the time to resolve a method call? > Gotta disagree with you there. Why do you think Java is so much more > like Objective C than C++ (except for certain syntacical conventions)? C++ _is_ getting old. But I don't think Java was designed for the purpose of creating large class libraries or large or time-critical systems (even aside from the fact that it is currently implemented as an interpreted language). It's design - like Obj-C - reflects restrictive requirements of an underlying layer as well as the latest thoughts about good programming. I would mourn the loss of stack based objects, mix in classes, and operator overloading as much as I would revel in untyped messaging and other benefits of run-time binding (some of which I suspect can lead to as much chaos as the arcane aspects of C++). In some ways C++ is more pure and abstract because you don't worry about the runtime overhead of creating objects of any little thing and stacking zillions of them in a list (with compile-time binding most such methods duck the virtual tables). I guess if I were to use Obj-C/Next I would still do part of my development in C++. I think the idea of building an OS as an extensible class library is superb, and my sense is that _that_ is what makes Next/OpenStep such a dynamite environment, more than a particular choice of language. I can see that Obj-C was designed to support just such an arrangement - would be much messier with C++. Most of the advantages of Obj-C that have been pointed out to me bear directly on this arrangement. But this is a different issue than merely comparing the features of two languages. Indeed, how often do we choose languages just on the basis of their ideal qualities, abstracted from the realities of our enterprises? Next has delivered a solution more than a language. The advantages of Obj-C don't seem as striking outside of that context. Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.s.shuttle.de!news.k.shuttle.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 04:04:57 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> <5bbuae$b14@news.xmission.com> <5bkujj$rm5@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as10s04.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21695 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53529 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180119 comp.sys.mac.system:192345 In article , jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > Think of the Finder as a file browser/window manager/task switcher >which operates on a 'desktop' paradigm- basically, if you have papers on >your desktop one can overlap the other. > I do understand the Finder. I've been using it for 12 years. :-) > I believe the Finder handles the layering of windows on the screen, >calling apps to redraw their windows in given regions. This is easily >ignored by us Mac users because it is very good at giving the illusion >that stuff just magically works ;) I bet there are Mac users out there who >have never heard of regions and believe the screen draws entire windows, >it's just that the one on the top covers underlying ones ;) > But, since this new Finder wouldn't have to worry about dealing with drawing windows, notifying programs, etc. it can just act as the user interface and disguise whatever unixness may be left underneath. > The finder is pretty cool, really. Odds are Rhapsody will incorporate a >lot of it. But be aware that it may not be the obvious use of copied >appearance and layout- for instance, if the NeXT paradigm doesn't make >much of this, it might grow to be extremely NeXT-like appearance... that >just happens to handle layered windows and direct manipulation very >naturally and well. (P'raps it already does- I've not been lucky enough to >actually use it.) > But if the Finder was handling windows and such then if you quit it (which is relatively simple) and were setiched to your application your windows and such still work. Then when you've quit the last running program the Finder will relaunch itself. Shouldn't be too hard to implement on Rhapsody. -Scott -- -------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm@nic.com "We are a fact-gathering organization only... the minute the FBI begins making recommendations on what should be done with its information, it becomes a Gestapo." -- J. Edgar Hoover #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!main.Germany.EU.net!Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in2.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 18 Jan 1997 06:53:36 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 118 Message-ID: <5bps1g$7t9@duke.squonk.net> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5booc1$qj@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21696 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53532 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180124 comp.sys.mac.system:192351 raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: > : raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > : > This assumes that Rhapsody will have a Unix layer similar to > : > the BSD Unix emulation middle layer between NextStep and the > : > Mach kernal in OpenStep/Mach. > : > : This is true. That is the assumption. It is a reasonable > : assumption given the high-priority goal of shipping a product > : which works, and doing so as soon as practical. > > I am a veteran of workstation administration, at least at the > workgroup level. It certainly would be absurd to ship a UNIX > system without shells and grep, but again we don't know for sure > how unixy the middle layer will be. Can you point me at press > info which guarantees the existence of the BSD middle layer? If I did, would it do any good? Did you read the interview with Avie? Let's be serious, all of us here are just stating our opinions, none of which will prove anything. The only thing that will be proof is the shipping system, and we have several months before we see that. However, none of us have any intention of shutting up for a few months, so we'll go round-and-round rehashing our opinions and our assumptions. None of them will be proof, they will only be opinions and assumptions. > : It is also certain that if they don't deliver some kind of credible > : operating system, running on their own hardware, by January 1998, > : then this whole exercise is going to be seen as a disaster. They > : *must* deliver a product. They can not go around taking on other > : big projects (like "ripping out unix") simply because someone > : *thinks* their life will be horrible if the executable for 'grep' > : is sitting on their hard disk. > > Hmm, seems we're reading the same statements very differently. > To my mind, the assault Apple is planning on the Unixness is > clear from Hancock and Amelio's comments. I've been reading as many interviews from Apple people as I can find, and I really do think you're picking up the wrong message from the initial comments given by Hancock and Amelio. However, it is also possible that I'm the one getting them wrong. It is also possible that whichever position they truly mean right *now*, that what we will actually get will be different than what they initially expected. > It sounds like by the time of the unified release, the GUI will > be much more familiar to Mac users than NeXT users, certainly > more than cleaning some rough edges. The GUI, yes. I expect that someone looking at a screen shot of a Rhapsody system is more likely to think "That's a Mac" than "That's a NeXTSTEP system". To me this means they replace the dock and File Viewer with something that looks much like the finder (they might have some options to get the NeXTSTEP look, but the standard look will be Mac-ish). This says nothing about ripping out unix. They *have* said things like "NeXTSTEP has done a good job of hiding Unix from the user, but there's still some rough edges. We intend to finish the job". If the job is *hiding* unix, then the job is not *eradicating* unix. Of course, it's still true that all of this is subject to change, as everyone at Apple sits down to work out the details. And I'm sure there are political battles going on inside of Apple over the same issues that they go on in this newsgroup. > The question is whether the de-unixizing will be cosmetic or > deeper. As someone who's life would be better with grep on my > hard disk, I hope that such features will still be accessible if > you want to use it, but I'm far from certain. I agree that they > face time pressure but they also face pressure from current Mac > users to produce a system which is at least familiar. If there is no common task which requires a user to learn Unix, then the user does not have to care that Unix might also happen to be on the hard disk. I agree that Apple has the goal you say it has, but that goal does not require the removal of /bin, /usr, and all the rest of unix. All it requires is more work done at the GUI level, so no user is required to open a Unix shell. > : There are some issues which will take at least a few months for > : Apple (and former NeXT) to work out. Hopefully they will conclude > : that they need to concentrate on producing a product, and on projects > : which have obvious benefits. > > This is certainly true. But the question remains, obvious benefit > to whom. The answer, in my opinion, is "to everyone". Hiding unix is a significant benefit to long-time Mac users, and doesn't really hurt anyone else. Ripping out unix will hurt everyone, including Mac users, because it means Apple needs to start a project to replace all the things which are handled at the Unix layer. The delay hurts everyone, including Apple. And it helps --- who? Not all that many people. I understand that some people might bitch about unix being there, but does it actually *help* them to remove it? > The set of projects which benefit current NeXTStep users is not > identical to the projects which benefit the vastly larger community > of current Mac users. I think that Apple will expend the majority > of its effort on pleasing the latter group. I do too. And I think they should. That does not mean they have to let users dictate low-level implementation details. It just means that a Mac user should not need lots of training sessions to learn how to use a Rhapsody system. However, they have made it clear that some things are going to change. That's the whole point of having a new system. If everything is *exactly* the same as the old system, then you haven't accomplished anything. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!in1.nntp.cais.net!news.us.net!usenet From: bchin@us.net (Bill Chin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep 2.0 to 4.1 comparison? Date: 18 Jan 1997 16:08:22 GMT Organization: US Net - MD,DC,VA ISP - info@us.net Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5bqshm$e0m@news.us.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: nikita.richmond.us.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) becker@ps.lhag.de (Dirk Becker) wrote: >Are there any similarities between the APIs of NextStep 2.0 as >installed on my Cube, and the current OpenStep / future Rhapsody? >Was the migration more like search&replace NX by NS and add >support for a bunch of new classes, or is it gone into a totally >different direction? It would be wrong to say that the OPENSTEP API's have "gone into a totally different direction." However, there are some significant changes, and IMHO, the alterations were for the better. The basics are pretty much the same, however. Yes, replace NX with NS, but also add in a new root class, autorelease memory pools, class clusters, new classes (NSString), etc. To see for yourself, check this URL out: http://www.next.com/Pubs/PubsCatalog.html Be sure to see the AppKit and Foundation References (downloadable). Also see the OpenStep spec at: ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/OpenStepSpec/ -- Bill Chin - bchin@us.net - NeXTmail/MIME welcomed #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Librarian replacement Date: 10 Jan 1997 14:18:42 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53562 comp.sys.next.programmer:21698 One of the really useful apps that's always shipped with NS is Librarian. Now, as I understand it, it'll be difficult to port to the new OS since it's dependent on the defunct IndexingKit? So, we may need a replacement? Fortunately the IR world has advanced substantially since Librarian was developed, so I wondered, would it be possible to wrap a GUI around Glimpse or somesuch? Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.63.63.70!nwnews.wa.com!jesjones From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Bad mouthing templates Date: Thu, 09 Jan 1997 22:03:30 -0800 Organization: Jet City Studios, Inc Lines: 56 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blv-pm114-ip12.halcyon.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11062 comp.sys.next.programmer:21699 In article <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com>, Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > In article <5asdoo$7us@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Art Isbell, > aisbell@ix.netcom.com writes: > > Templates are a hack to deal with C++'s strict typing that aren't needed > >in Objective-C (hope my lack of full understanding of templates isn't showing > >too much :-) An Objective-C collection can contain objects of any type and > >can even include objects of different types without the need to resort to > >some sort of template mechanism. > > > > I believe that perhaps the better way to phrase this might be: Templates > are a hack to provide type safety in C++'s that isn't needed in > Objective-C... Like Eiffel C++ was designed to make writing production quality code easier. A large part of this is static type checking which at compile time checks *all* your code for type mismatches. In a language with less static type checking you need to execute each code path in your application to get the same result. For a large application this is very difficult. Like Eiffel C++ provides compile time polymorphism to achieve additional flexibility without sacrificing type safety. In C++ this is done with templates which are useful for much more than just container classes. For example, in C++ it's as easy to write a templatized FFT as one hardcoded for a specific type. Yet the template version allows you to use floats, doubles, long doubles, or even a big float class. I can only remember seeing three half-way valid criticisms of templates: 1) Templates cause massive code. This can happen very easily with naive implementations, but it can be largely alleviated by using non-template base classes and partial specialization. 2) It's difficult to write exception safe template code since any method of the parameterized class can throw an exception. This is also overblown: with care and experience with exception handling safe code can be written. 3) Templates force the compiler to slog thru much more code thereby reducing compile speeds. This can be dealt with by not using MSVC, by using non-template base classes, and by forward referencing template classes in headers. It's my understanding that the ANSI committe has blessed seperate compilation for templates so this will hopefully become moot. I keep seeing Objective-C advocates claiming that it makes writing programs much easier. That may well be true, but the hard part of programming is not coding it's making the program do what it's supposed to do, perform well, and gracefully handle errors. C++ makes this easier because the language and the philosophy emphasize catching problems at compile time. Maintaining backward compatibility with C does make C++ less safe than it would otherwise have been, but in the hands of a skilled engineer it's a powerful and effective tool. --Jesse #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Porting from NS to Rhapsody Date: 18 Jan 1997 18:16:36 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5br424$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 18 12:16:36 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: > If Apple wants Rhapsody to be OpenStep compliant, they can't change all > that much. It's unclear if Apple will do so or not (but it seems silly to > not conform). I would imagine that even if Apple uses QuickDraw GX as the > base imaging system, there will be a transparent access to a DPS->GX > converter, so older OpenStep programs can run w/o modification. I bet that most OPENSTEP apps rarely directly access DPS directly. It's all covered up by NSApplication, NSView, and NSWindow. So these apps don't really know or care what imaging system is underneath. There are some classes of apps that probably do access DPS extensively (e.g., drawing apps), but these are probably a small fraction of existing NS/OS apps. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!usenet From: "Gregory H. Anderson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:17:21 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <32E14BF1.7D13@afs.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> Reply-To: greg@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ivyland347.voicenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11064 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3595 comp.sys.next.programmer:21701 Anders Pytte wrote: > So what kind of relationship exists between the number of methods in a > class, the depth of subclassing, and the time to resolve a method call? In general, the time to resolve a method is dependent on how long it takes to turn the string representation of the method name into a hash key, then use that key to search the class's hash table. Each class has its own hash table, so they tend not to get too big. It's certainly faster than a linear search, but I don't have Knuth in front of me to determine the general performance of hash lookups. The effect of depth of subclassing depends on how far down the search goes. Basically, the Objective C runtime dispatcher starts at the current class and keeps chasing down the superclass hierarchy until something (or nothing) responds to the method. The superclass is part of the metaclass information, so that is a direct pointer. It is important to note that for tight loops with frequent, invariant method calls, you can get the method address outside the loop, then call it inside with a syntax that is equivalent to a straight function. This is said to provide a 3x speedup, on average, versus repeated dynamic resolution. Finally, I mentioned in a prior message that ivars are stored in a set of nested structs -- which is the reason you can't add ivars on the fly -- but I shold have pointed out that you can work with them dynamically. That is how InterfaceBuilder works, for example. If you know an ivar exists by name, you can use the runtime system to perform indirect value access and assignment. > I would mourn the loss of stack based objects, mix in classes, and > operator overloading as much as I would revel in untyped messaging and > other benefits of run-time binding (some of which I suspect can lead to as > much chaos as the arcane aspects of C++). Stack based objects that clean themselves up at the end of an execution block would be a nice figure. Intriguingly, that WAS part of StepStone's original implementation, but NeXT never supported it. Operator overloading is one of those things you either love or hate, in my experience. I can take or leave it. I've seen too many C++ classes where it's done poorly or unintuitively. > But this is a different issue than merely comparing the features of two > languages. Indeed, how often do we choose languages just on the basis of > their ideal qualities, abstracted from the realities of our enterprises? > Next has delivered a solution more than a language. Full agreement. If only NeXT had had the wisdom to sell it that way. One of the most frustrating things about NeXT's marketing approach over the years was to sell the technology per se, rather than targeting solutions to customers. I hope Apple does not make the same mistake. Greg #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!usenet From: "Gregory H. Anderson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Porting from NS to Rhapsody Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:29:47 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <32E14EDB.7A4E@afs.com> Reply-To: greg@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ivyland347.voicenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Art Isbell wrote: > I bet that most OPENSTEP apps rarely directly access DPS directly. > It's all covered up by NSApplication, NSView, and NSWindow. So these > apps don't really know or care what imaging system is underneath. > There are some classes of apps that probably do access DPS extensively > (e.g., drawing apps), but these are probably a small fraction of > existing NS/OS apps. Allow me to share a recent posting to Semper Fi on this topic that got me thinking: "Hey, I publish NEXTSTEP-based DTP and word processing applications. How much PS code _do_ they contain?" I had never really counted before. Here is what I found. PasteUp and WriteUp contain 365 lines of source which use PSwraps. (If you missed the earlier discussion, these are pre-defined C functions that 'wrap' PS operators. For example, 'PSmoveto(1,1)' is equivalent to '1 1 moveto'.) Of those, 102 are simple gsave/grestore pairs (to preserve drawing contexts), so there are really only 263 lines of "meaningful" PS code. The majority of that is related to PasteUp's shape and line-drawing capabilities, NOT page composition. There are also 21 new AFS-defined PSwrap functions containing 134 lines of direct PostScript for common operations like underlining, arrows, special tokens, text frames, and selection knobs. In addition, there are 108 lines of Display PostScript calls. Of these, 11 are related to event-handling. Another 63 are DPSprintf operations that only apply to putting special code on the output stream for four-color separations and RGB->CMYK translation. (Yes, PasteUp creates service-bureau-ready separations, including crop marks, emulsion up/down, etc.) So there you go: In the application categories that you might expect to be the most PS-intensive on the platform, that is our total exposure to PostScript operations. Sounds manageable, doesn't it? Greg #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 18 Jan 1997 22:39:11 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5brjef$cg4@news.xmission.com> References: <5brdnj$65l@copland.udel.edu> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21703 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11065 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3596 chao@copland.udel.edu (John David Chao) wrote: > Charles W Swiger said: > > >Sure. Obj-C itself does not support MI or operator-overloading, but > >Obj-C++ does. People using pure Obj-C generally seem to use forwarding > > I haven't heard of Obj-C++. Is Metrowerks going to have a compiler for it? > How does it compare to Obj-C? It is just a compiler that can compile both Obj-C and C++. Which gives the interesting possibility of mixing Obj-C and C++ code in the same file. You cannot write an object in a combination of Obj-C and C++, it is one or the other, but you _can_ send messages from one type of object to the other, facilitating the mixing of two different kinds of objects. This is good because it lets you make a design incorporating both kinds of objects so that you can control the tradeoffs between dynamic and static OOP--or simply interface legacy C++ code to an Obj-C interface. If you want to see a good sized example of this mixture, the MiscKit has MiscTableScroll which uses a C++ engine but has an Obj-C Facade wrapped around it. ("Facade" as in the GOF pattern...) Source is part of the kit and is free, of course. This is a pretty good example, too, IMHO, since it is complex enough to really show a practical usage rather than a simple, little, contrived example. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 17:59:13 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Distribution: world Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 43 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port5.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11067 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3598 comp.sys.next.programmer:21704 In article <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > The depth of subclassing probably directly affects the time to resolve a > method call the first time a method is invoked on an object (or probably on > any instance of a class), but because of method caching, the resolution time > of subsequent invocations probably isn't proportional to subclassing depth. > I don't know how method caching is implemented, but I've read that the > average method invocation, although somewhat slower than a C function call, > isn't much slower (whatever "much" means :-) ... > Objective-C supports ducking the message dispatch process as well. > Programmers can ask for the pointer to the function that implements a method > and use that if performance is an issue such as in large loops. > > There's no reason why C++ programmers wouldn't continue to use their C++ > code and their C++ skills to write Model and maybe Controller classes in C++. Okay, I am impressed. Thanks for taking the time to detail the virtues of Obj-C. > But we're talking about Rhapsody development, aren't we? This will use > OPENSTEP libraries and their extensions (Apple technologies). So Objective-C > should be pretty striking in this context. With this as the subtext, yes. Perhaps I missed the germination of this thread where that subtext was made explicit. An OS interface using runtime-binding of objects is a good idea and benefits from a language like Obj-C or Java. But in certain contexts, compile-time binding, multiple inheritance, operator overloading, stack-based objects, etc., have great virtue (which members of the Obj-C community who contribute to this thread have been loath to acknowledge for reasons that mystify me). Is someone trying to sell me something? Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gumby!yale!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Porting from NS to Rhapsody Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:49:44 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 26 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> <5br424$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5br424$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> > tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: > >> If Apple wants Rhapsody to be OpenStep compliant, they can't change all >> that much. It's unclear if Apple will do so or not (but it seems silly to >> not conform). I would imagine that even if Apple uses QuickDraw GX as the >> base imaging system, there will be a transparent access to a DPS->GX >> converter, so older OpenStep programs can run w/o modification. From http://www.macos.apple.com/macos/releases/rhapsody/faq.rhap.html: "Q: Will Rhapsody support Display PostScript, QuickDraw GX, or some hybrid? A: Apple intends to adopt the PostScript imaging model for Rhapsody and migrate the best of our existing graphic technologies to that model, including ColorSync and GX typography. This will provide front-to-back PostScript support for publishing developers and customers. Technical details of QuickDraw and QuickDraw GX integration are still under investigation." -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:56:09 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5brdnj$65l@copland.udel.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5brdnj$65l@copland.udel.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21706 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11068 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3599 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 18-Jan-97 Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective.. by John David Chao@copland. >> Sure. Obj-C itself does not support MI or operator-overloading, but >> Obj-C++ does. People using pure Obj-C generally seem to use forwarding > > I haven't heard of Obj-C++. Is Metrowerks going to have a compiler for it? > How does it compare to Obj-C? ObjC++ == ObjC + C++. I don't know what Metrowerks is doing, but an ObjC++ compiler understands both ObjC and C++, so you can compile source which was written in either (or both 'simultaneously') languages. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!esp225.nrl.navy.mil!user From: pecora@zoltar.nrl.navy.mil (Lou Pecora) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:59:43 GMT Organization: Naval Research Lab Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDF93.7CA5@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: esp225.nrl.navy.mil X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21707 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53607 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180262 comp.sys.mac.system:192457 > Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| > Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | > alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. I like it. Lou Pecora code 6343 Naval Research Lab Washington DC 20375 USA == My views are not those of the U.S. Navy. == ------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the 4th Experimental Chaos Conference Home Page: http://natasha.umsl.edu/Exp_Chaos4/ ------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <475852914532@digifix.com> Date: 19 Jan 1997 04:57:55 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 347 Approved: sanguish@digifix.com Message-ID: <413853649874@digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com X-Mailer: Perl5 Mail::Internet v1.23 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53627 comp.sys.next.announce:4011 comp.sys.next.hardware:26659 comp.sys.next.software:27465 comp.sys.next.misc:24711 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:24921 comp.sys.next.bugs:4161 comp.sys.next.programmer:21708 Topics include: Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site eduSTEP WWW site NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site comp.sys.next newsgroups related newsgroups comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list ftp sites NeXTanswers Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site =============================================== This online community resource includes - ISV company pages - ISV product descriptions - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages - Mailing List archives and information You can connect via the world wide web at: http://www.stepwise.com/ Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com If you would like to get your company and product information on Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com. eduSTEP WWW site ================ http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/ eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on: - NextStep tools and projects for scientists. - Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist). - A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with customers in the educational community. - Conferences, meetings, workshops - Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a NextStep scientific work environment - Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation of OpenStep now being developed NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site ============================ http://www.next.com comp.sys.next.* newsgroups ========================== news:comp.sys.next.advocacy This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. news:comp.sys.next.announce Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Archives are available by ftp at ftp://ftp.stepwise.com/pub/Next_Announce_Archives Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. news:comp.sys.next.bugs A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well. news:comp.sys.next.hardware Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. news:comp.sys.next.marketplace NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. news:comp.sys.next.misc For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! news:comp.sys.next.programmer Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. news:comp.sys.next.software This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. Related Newsgroups ================== news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. news:comp.lang.objective-c Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. news:comp.object Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com The ftp sites ============= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org - The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de: - (Peanuts) Located in Germany. ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next - Peanuts mirror in the US ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: - See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. 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To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com ) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!decuac.dec.com!haven.umd.edu!news5.digex.net!phcs!papoose.quick.com!papoose.quick.com!not-for-mail From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 11 Jan 1997 13:00:23 -0500 Organization: PHCS Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5b8kfn$3f4@papoose.quick.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: papoose.quick.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21709 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53638 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180329 comp.sys.mac.system:192511 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: > Too inflexible anyway. I like putting my apps where I like them, I have >a number of drag and drop ones on my desktop for instance. Even under the current NeXT implementation, you can have apps appear to be installed any place, even if they are installed some other place. No matter what the Rhapsody looks like, this will still be possible. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Private HealthCare Systems NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | Systems Integration Group (617) 895-3343 ) | "I don't think so," said Rene Descartes. Just then, he vanished. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!spill From: spill@netcom.com (David Stein) Subject: Interfacing OpenStep program to Telnet... Message-ID: Organization: Netcom On-Line Services X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #9 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 03:53:52 GMT Lines: 15 Sender: spill@netcom2.netcom.com I need to know the following: Can I use Telnet from within an OpenStep application? I will be writing a program which communicates (unattended) with a Cisco access-server, and we communicate with these things via telnet. So, does OpenStep offer a (programmer's, not command line) interface to telnet? Or, am I left to do a fork/exec and communicate with telnet through pipes? Also, I have another question: Can I make calls directly to the NT or Mach Unix API's (where applicable) from within an OpenStep app? Any help is appreciated. Thank You. David Stein spill@netcom.com tevey. So now I'm wondering, can I load NS on the laptop and then load Win/95 under it to access my office productivity stuff - or should I get the SoftPC emulator? What do I need to do/can I get both NS and Win/95 on the same box, preferably Win/95 running in a window under NS. Another line of questions has to do with development. NEXTSTEP native vs OPENSTEP. Is there an OPENSTEP developer product for Intel boxes and do I want it instead of NS native? Is it the product that has a future?? Another line of questioning - is NS 3.3 Developer the latest/greatest still for Intel boxes (if OPENSTEP is the way to go - which version?). Lastly, a RFO (Request For Opinions) as to which is better as of today: Buy a new Intel box and put NS/OPENSTEP on it - or wait to purchase until some hot Apple/NEXT combo hits the market. Of particular interest to me is in the realm of laptops, but also interested in opinions generally. Look forward to hearing all the opinions on this hot topic. Feel free to email me directly at rwarner@prv.com - will summarize to the net. Rich #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.voicenet.com!news From: "Gregory H. Anderson" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:23:48 -0500 Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <32D7DAB4.1114@afs.com> References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> Reply-To: greg@afs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ivyland353.voicenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11070 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3602 comp.sys.next.programmer:21712 Michael D. Rossetti wrote: > This is an interesting way to implement multiple inheritance. I guess > this approach must mean that 'multiple inheritance' in Objective C is > limited to only one base class and one 'proxy' class - is that correct? I look at MI simulation in Objective-C somewhat differently than the direction this thread has taken. Here is something I posted to the Semper.Fi mailing list last week. Greg =========== It is fairly common to have objects "own" other objects that they instantiate upon creation, and destroy upon their own destruction. For example (I'm using 3.3 terminology here), the NeXT TextField class is a Control (a subclass of View) which owns a TextFieldCell to handle its contents (editing, validation, and formatting). In C++, you might declare TextField as one class that inherits from two others (View and Cell). In Objective-CC, you inherit from one, and use it to manage an instance of the other. In usage, the Cell can be returned to a caller, and then messages can be sent directly to it: [[myTextField cell] setStringValue:"foo"] But for convenience, the most frequent messages destined for the cell are also defined in the Control, so [myTextField setStringValue:"foo"] would be equivalent. (The TextField version of this message would simply forward the string value to the cell.) There are two nifty benefits to this approach. First, you don't have to worry about name-space conflicts between the merged classes. Second, you can substitute a different cell object or cell class at runtime, thus changing the apparent behavior without recompiling the TextField class. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cwix!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 19 Jan 1997 02:18:32 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21713 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53658 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180371 comp.sys.mac.system:192519 In article , jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > Way too simple for me, I'm afraid, I would find that disgustingly > restrictive. The notion of an 'Applications', 'Documents' etc folder, is > horribly Win-like, not something I could deal with. (Win-like???? Are we talking about the same Windows? You know, that operating system that likes to dump files everywhere on your drive? Windows does NOT have a mandatory Applications folder or anything like that.) Try dealing with it and you'll find you'll be able to. I don't understand why you want to scatter your applications all over the filesystem. I don't know anyone who does this. Even the Mac people tend to put everything in the Applications folder or a subdirectory of it. (Or on the Desktop, but the Desktop is not part of the filesystem under NEXTSTEP, and it doesn't really matter anyway as you can store links to files anywhere in the filesystem on the desktop using an extension.) And if you want to organize things better using subdirectories, fine, you can put applications in subdirectories of the standard folders and the Workspace will find them. If you don't like those subdirectories being stored in /LocalApps instead of your home directory, make links to them. Or store them on your File Viewer shelf. > My root folders are > along the lines of 'video', 'writing' etc, not categories that are frankly > only useful to the computer itself. You can make subdirectories of, say, LocalApps with names like Video and Writing to store applications related to those tasks. And if, for some reason, you want to put the video-related applications in the same folder as your QuickTimes or whatever, that's trivial too. Just have the Installer dump the apps in the regular directory, and create links to them wherever you want to see them. It takes no more effort than choosing where to install an app in the first place. > "Applications"? What good does that do me? You know, those things that you run? I personally am not interested in keeping my word processor in the same folder as all my word-processing documents.. I don't even keep all my documents in the same folder.. that's sorting by type and I sort by topic. I think you're just making a big deal over nothing, just because it's different. You complain that your freedom has been taken away, but you don't really need it; NEXTSTEP has perfectly acceptable substitutes. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!waldorf.csc.calpoly.edu!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 09:06:15 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: <5b50q7$39e@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21714 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53660 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180374 comp.sys.mac.system:192520 Ferret wrote: > mmalcolm crawford wrote: > > Let's see; *including the C compiler (bi-fat), /bin takes 4.7MB; > > /etc 800k, usr/bin 6.5MB, /usr/etc 3.1MB... when it's difficult these days to > > buy a disk < 1GB, this is not exactly *big*. And remember much of this is > > stuff which is used by the OS itself... > > > > I am having difficulty understanding your prejudice here -- what all this > > stuff represents is effectively what I (assume) MacOS has in its /System > > folder, it's just spread around a bit more (perhaps something for AppLE to > > address, though doing so might break a lot of stuff), and with a more obscure > > nomenclature. > > Here are the files that make my Mac go in the system folder: > Finder - the basis of the OS > System - what makes the finder go > Control Panels - filled with all sorts a crap that I throw in there > Extentions - same as control panels > Fonts - pretty obvious > Preferences - ditto > > No /usr or /etc or any of that crut, The point is that the "crud" in /usr and /etc is a combination of Extensions and System--NEXTSTEP needs that stuff to run. You never have to look at it yourself if you don't want to. (I like the mechanic and hood comparison. Yes, the ugly user-unfriend- liness of UNIX is there. NEXTSTEP hides it with a more than adequate hood and _you_ have to lift that hood to see it. Most users never will. End of story. You can't just throw out the engine and expect the car to run, you know. You can't delete your System folder and expect your Mac to work very well. And Blow away /etc or /usr and your NeXT won't boot. Most users won't mess with the engine, System, or /usr and /etc and will never need to--and the "hood" hides the complexity. The mechanics of the world know it is there, though, and just love to play in the dirt and grime... :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 19 Jan 1997 02:24:37 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5bsi7l$ecd@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21715 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53667 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180381 comp.sys.mac.system:192523 In article , jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > In article <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu > (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > > One thing I'm pretty sure of is that the applications like tar, emacs, > > and especially cc, will not be present. > > Apple can't afford to upset its developers by giving away things that > > will in any way make users reluctant to buy new software. > I can't imagine any Mac user forgoing DropStuff or Stuffit Expander for > tar... Me neither.. but maybe a graphical interface to tar that acts just like those Mac apps. > or _anything_ for emacs Developers might. Many programmers love Emacs because of its extensibility. (They even have a Mac version, you know.. so I doubt Apple's going to leave _that_ out of Rhapsody.) > (don't know what cc is, could somebody describe?) The C compiler. Apple could very well leave that out.. wouldn't want to give people a free alternative.. though I don't think that even the GNU C compiler with Obj-C extensions will be able to link in CodeWarrior object files or the OpenStep libraries, so I don't think they would gain much by leaving it out; it's mostly useful for command-line stuff. And leaving it out would be a big problem for Unix people, since most Unix software is distributed in source form only (every Unix system comes with a C compiler, except for some commercial implementations who have discovered that they can charge extra for the compiler). -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 11 Jan 1997 18:36:30 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 173 Message-ID: <5b8mje$nam@news.xmission.com> References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11071 comp.sys.next.programmer:21716 jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote: > Do you agree that it's better, as a general rule, to find > errors as soon as possible? Yes. But I prefer a language in which the tendency is to have fewer errors up front. I find that most of my Objective-C code "just works" because the simplicity of the language means I don't tend to make as many mistakes. This is nothing to do with which one I am most familiar with--C++ is a harder language to use (even if you're good at both) and hence there are more errors up front. The syntax is more complex, so it is easier to forget little details. My point is that in my experience, most of the errors that the C++ compiler is catching for me are errors I wouldn't make in the first place if I was using Objective-C, and which is better-- catching the error as soon as possible or never making the error at all? That's just my experience, as one who has used both languages. Having used both, the question of which I would rather use is a no-brainer. I'd like to know if other people who have used _both_ languages _extensively_ feel the same as I do or not. I don't want to hear from people who have only used one or the other or who have not used them both a lot; there would be too much bias in the answer to get what I'm looking for here. > I can see how a more dynamic language can lead to a simpler class design: > I've made careful use of dynamic_cast in my C++ code and been pleased with > the results. However I don't think this is worth sacrificing static type > safety for. I want my code to be as solid and robust as possible. A > language where an object may or may not be able to handle a method call > seems like a giant step backward. It really isn't. It allows great flexibility in a design. Just like C++ operator overloading, there are times when it is a very good thing and there are times when it is a bad idea. The same goes with Objective-C's dynamic features. When abused, they can cause problems. A good programmer with a good design will use them right [that goes for dynamism and overloading]. I've found the repercussions of bad programming in Objective-C to be a lot less serious, though, especially from a maintenance point of view, which I already mentioned. > I must have missed those zillion discussions of why Objective-C > is a better OOPL than C++. Care to elaborate? I haven't the time. Look at the archives of comp.lang.objective-c or search dejanews for comparisons of the two. There's more there than you'll want to waste time on reading... > As I said before simple to write doesn't mean a language is suitable for > software engineering. BASIC makes it easy to bang out code, but very few > would claim that it's suitable for large commercial quality projects. I > would claim (and I know I'm not alone) that C is, at best, barely adequate > for software engineering. C++ has added a lot to the language with most of > the additions focused on making it easier to write large robust systems. > What has Objective-C done to meet this goal? I think it has done the same thing as C++, but with more simplicity. That alone, to me, makes it better. It has a lot of features which, if you take advantage of them, will produce code more robust than what C++ will give you. And for a much lower price. > C++ was not haphazardly designed There are many who would argue that point. I've heard it described as "warts on warts" by more than one C++ programmer. > and it doesn't "promote arcane usage and bad style". Again, depends upon who you talk to. I'm not talking about Obj-C fans, either. I've met several C++ fans who will say this. > The worst C++ code is written by old time C hackers who don't > grasp OOD and the evils of the preprocessor. That goes for any OO language. C++ just makes it easier to do that. It is possible to write bad code in Objective-C, too, but you usually have to work harder to accomplish it. > Slamming C++ because its a big > language is absurd: the language was written for professional developers > who can relatively easily learn the mechanics of the language. There are > valid criticisms of C++, but they're almost entirely due to backward > compatibility with C. That's not what a lot of professionals I've talked to have said. It takes years to become a truly proficient C++ programmer, and it takes days to learn the guts of Objective-C. If two tools accomplish the same thing but one takes orders of magnitude longer to learn, I think that should tell you something. After using both, I don't feel that C++'s complexity buys you anything significant over Obj-C except for maybe a bigger training budget. > [...] A much better book IMO is "Object Oriented Software > Construction" by Bertand Meyer. [...]. Yeah, that's a good book, too. Well, it sounds like your experience is a bit different than mine and hence your opinions will be different; so be it. Have you extensively used Objective-C, though? After using both you might feel different, assuming you haven't. If you have, I'd like to hear specifics about what you don't like. Two final points: (1) Objective-C does do type checking and the compiler will let you know about objects that can't understand certain messages. You can have checking baed on object type (ie, inheritance chain): View *rectangle; [If you assign an object that isn't an instance of View or one of its subclasses, you get an error. If you send a message that "View" doesn't respond to, you also get a compiler error.] Or you can have it done by protocol: id rectangle; [If you assign a class that doesn't implement the "View" protocol, you get a compiler error; if you send a message not in the "View" protocol, you get another error. When you define an object with a protocol, it is an error to not define every method in that particular protocol.] The dangerous one is to do this, but there are times (actually rather rare) where this is appropriate: id rectangle; [You can assign any object and send any defined message without getting a compiler error. Usually, this is used for delegate objects where you may only want to implement a partial interface, since you don't care about certain notifications or behavioral modifications. In those cases, you always use -respondsTo: before sending the message, though. That's appropriate, since if the method isn't implemented, then the writer wanted that message to be ignored. This really improves the API of a framework; using the OPENSTEP frameworks for a while will teach you why.] So you aren't really giving up the static types you love so much-- a point which keeps getting lost in these discussions--but you are gaining a lot of dynamic abilities, which have positive effects on (a) design, (b) code production, and (c) code maintenance. It seems to me that this is an improvement. And yes, when I write Objective-C I do use the static types a lot. Additionally, I mix C++ and Objective-C. C++ works quite well for tightly integrated objects that work together as an engine. (ie, you don't need the dynamism, because you don't need or want its flexibility.) A good example of this is the MiscTableScroll, which is an Objective-C GUI object for NEXTSTEP which is meant to display DB columns and rows. The Objective-C stuff is really just a Facade over the C++ engine underneath, which does all the real work. And it turns out that that is a case where C++ has proven to be a very good tool. Source code for that is in the MiscKit; the docs for the Obj-C Facade are at: http://www.misckit.com/Documentation/Classes/MiscTableScroll.html Warning: that's a 300k document, and misckit.com is on a 28.8k... That's probably the most complex object in the MiscKit, because it can do so much. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!night.primate.wisc.edu!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 10 Jan 1997 02:50:30 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5b4apm$al2@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21717 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53675 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180403 comp.sys.mac.system:192530 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > My mom's HD is 80Meg. So now we get to buy a new HD to store > files she'll never use. Hmmmm. Your mother has a PowerMac with an 80-meg disk? Really? And if she has a 68K-based, then she wasn't going to be running *any* of the new operating system choices that Apple was considering. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 19 Jan 1997 02:34:07 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21718 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53678 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180406 comp.sys.mac.system:192531 In article , jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > > Mac users should note that the desktop on NEXTSTEP, when using an > > extension like Fiend, is _not_ part of the filesystem. Every icon you > > see on the desktop resides somewhere else, like aliases. > That's interesting- this is within the app wrapper, correct? No.. err, actually, it depends on what "this" means. With Fiend, if you drag something onto the desktop, it remembers what the path for the file is and displays that file's icon. (Actually, Fiend is more general, you can drop icons for things inside applications onto the desktop too.) But if you are asking there the icon images are stored, the images for a document are stored in the app wrapper for whatever apps is selected as the default opener for that document. If you change the default app, the file's icon changes. > Where are drive icons kept? There are no drive icons. Unix drives look like folders; they're mounted directly into the filesystem wherever you want (and have permission to put them). For example, you could have all your users' directories stored on another drive and mount it as the /Users folder. You literally can't tell what drive a folder is stored on unless you open up an inspector. There are some generic icons for removable media like floppy disks and CD-ROMs that the File Viewer uses instead of a folder icon when you insert one; those are probably stored in the Workspace's app wrapper. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mach-O and localization, was Re: Apple-NeXT Conflicts? Date: 19 Jan 1997 02:38:23 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5bsj1f$llh@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180407 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53679 comp.sys.next.programmer:21719 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > multiple sections supported by Mach-O are a straightforward extension of > > the venerable a.out format, which had precisely three sections: TEXT, > > DATA, and BSS. > Ahhhhhhh. So (you see this coming), why did it stop there? Because (you see this coming) the forked-file concept sucks and app wrappers are better. :) -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Interfacing OpenStep program to Telnet... Date: 19 Jan 1997 02:47:54 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5bsjja$nvs@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu In article , spill@netcom.com (David Stein) wrote: > I need to know the following: Can I use Telnet from within an > OpenStep application? I will be writing a program which communicates > (unattended) with a Cisco access-server, and we communicate with these > things via telnet. So, does OpenStep offer a (programmer's, not command > line) interface to telnet? Not to telnet specifically. > Or, am I left to do a fork/exec and communicate with telnet through pipes? You can use an NSTask object, which wrappers the fork/exec process, can set up a pipe, and can return either NSFileHandles or NSPipes to stdin/stdout/stderr. (Among other things.) I think that NSTask is a NeXT-specific extension of the OpenStep spec, so I suppose you can't count on it existing in other implementations. I don't know about NSFileHandle or NSPipe. > Also, I have another question: Can I make calls directly to the > NT or Mach Unix API's (where applicable) from within an OpenStep app? Sure. Just link the appropriate libraries in and call them like usual. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.NetVision.net.il!news From: Rami Gideoni Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.m68k,comp.misc,gnu.utils,alt.comp.hardware,comp.lang.asm,comp.os.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.misc Subject: Re: Help: need info on Motrola "S" hex format Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 09:57:40 +0200 Organization: AISYS Lines: 17 Message-ID: <32E1D3F4.313D@aisys.co.il> References: <32DF9D14.6FD8@inigo.us.dg.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ws24.aisys.co.il Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I) To: Yomama Sophat Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10587 comp.sys.m68k:8491 comp.misc:26269 gnu.utils:15 alt.comp.hardware:2042 comp.lang.asm:67 comp.os.misc:4647 comp.sys.next.programmer:21721 comp.sys.misc:5083 Yomama Sophat wrote: > > Any information out there? I need to write a program that outputs such > files. Thanks in advance. Hi, Send me your fax number and I'll fax it over to you. -- Rami Gideoni WWW : http//www.aisys-usa.com/fromrami.htm ------------------------------------------- Disclaimer: This message does not necessarily reflect the company's opinion - just my own humble one. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!waldorf.csc.calpoly.edu!charnel.ecst.csuchico.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 10 Jan 1997 09:39:11 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 101 Message-ID: <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11072 comp.sys.next.programmer:21722 jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote: > I keep seeing Objective-C advocates claiming that it makes writing programs > much easier. That may well be true, but the hard part of programming is not > coding it's making the program do what it's supposed to do, perform well, > and gracefully handle errors. C++ makes this easier because the language > and the philosophy emphasize catching problems at compile time. Maintaining > backward compatibility with C does make C++ less safe than it would > otherwise have been, but in the hands of a skilled engineer it's a powerful > and effective tool. Wow. This is amazing. And he really believes what he's saying! With C++ my productivity hits rock bottom, at least when compared to what I can crank out in Objective C. And even with all the type checking the compiler is doing for me, I find my code quality is in the dumps with C++, as compared to Objective-C. Yeah, that picky compiler keeps me busy all right. Bow down to the needs of the compiler and satisfy its every whim. I like Objective C becase it reduces clutter in the system's design and is simply a better OO implementation (for reasons that have been hashed out zillions of times before). Let's face it: a large C++ project versus a large Objective-C project, what are the differences? * That picky C++ compiler means I can hire twice as many programmers and take twice as long to get it written. And even then it probably won't work right anyway. So much for stamping the bugs early on. The simplicity of Objective-C keeps most of those bugs from happening in the first place, because it is easier to write! Besides, a good design will, by nature, help reduce the bugs in the product. You should never trust a compiler to make up for flaws in a bad design, which is what I see far too many C++ programmers doing. (Not all are that way, thank heavens, but in practice the "compiler will spot the bugs" attitude often leads to this outcome.) * My resulting app will be much larger because of unnecessary code bloat caused by lack of dynamism. The design will bloat as well, as I work around language deficiencies. [To do effective GUI work you need to have a certain amount of dynamism. In C++, this means you re-invent your own mini runtime each time. In Objective-C, where you start with a runtime, you save yourself that much effort. Less code usually means fewer bugs, as far as I've seen.] * The C++ _may_ run a little faster, since I don't have the overhead of the runtime--but not as much as you'd think because of that code bloat and the less-than-optimal design the compiler's pickiness forces me to use. * C++ has all these nifty features (syntactic sugar) that I can use to increase my productivity. Too bad that the next guy that comes along--to maintain my code--can't figure out what the hell I did. Most Objective-C code is very nearly self documenting. The simpler designs mean the maintenance guys can come in and quickly find and fix problems. If there are any. You could argue that good and bad programming styles affect this comparison--and yes they sure do--but C++ promotes arcane usage and bad style because of its haphazard design whereas Objective-C does a lot to help promote good design. Plus, how many syntax elements does C++ add to C? Has anyone ever sat down and counted? Compare Objective-C's number--I think it is in the _teens_. So which is going to be easier to debug? And I could keep going...but I think my bias is obvious. Why? I've used both and I _know_ which one works better. As a final point, which OO environment has faster execution speed on like hardware and is more time tested and proven: NEXTSTEP or Taligent? Does anything more have to be said? That's two large systems of similar complexity, and one seems to be doing just a little bit better than the other, now, wouldn't you think? And while languge isn't the only reason for that particular situation, you can't blame management on that one. NeXT is notorious for being one of the most poorly managed companies ever, at least according to its many "enemies" and even a large portion of its advocates. Yes, with all that mismanagement, their product has _still_ survived, in spite of all they have done to apparently try and kill it off! That really says something to me about the product's quality! Of course, after using the product and those of competitors, I know firsthand why it is so great. You really have to give it a chance to "get it", and once you do, you'll never want to go back... As I sign off, I will say that a good design is paramount, no matter which language you choose. A lot of Objective C projects have failed, too, because of that. I _strongly_ suggest Bruce Webster's book, "Pitfalls of Object Oriented Programming." That's the wise voice of sad experience speaking there. May we all read and learn from it and avoid those traps! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 11 Jan 1997 18:33:56 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 125 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b8mek$9sp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca9-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 11 10:33:56 AM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11073 comp.sys.next.programmer:21723 jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote: > In article <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > > With C++ my productivity hits rock bottom, at least when compared > > to what I can crank out in Objective C. And even with all the > > type checking the compiler is doing for me, I find my code quality > > is in the dumps with C++, as compared to Objective-C. Yeah, that > > picky compiler keeps me busy all right. Bow down to the needs of > > the compiler and satisfy its every whim. > And what whims are we talking about? Requiring that the method exists for > the object it's invoked on? Requiring that pointer assignments be between > compatible types? Reasonable requirements at first blush, but ones that can be overly restrictive for a dynamic system. And, as you probably know, requirements that are met by Objective-C compilers when static typing is used as it should be in most cases. But in those cases in which the type of an object shouldn't be restricted at compile-time, Objective-C's id type is designed for this situation. Objects typed to id should be asked whether they respond to a method or conform to a protocol before sending a message, so if the object doesn't respond, this fact is caught at run-time and handled accordingly with no loss of safety. Of course, the compiler doesn't protect against poor programming techniques that would allow an object to be sent a message to which it cannot respond, so the tradeoff is one of safety against flexibility. In many cases, choosing flexibility is a big win; in other cases, it's not. > Do you agree that it's better, as a general rule, to find errors as soon > as possible? Sure, but if needed flexibility is sacrificed in the process, then finding errors later, at run-time, and dealing with them at that point is sufficient. > I can see how a more dynamic language can lead to a simpler class design: > I've made careful use of dynamic_cast in my C++ code and been pleased with > the results. However I don't think this is worth sacrificing static type > safety for. I want my code to be as solid and robust as possible. A > language where an object may or may not be able to handle a method call > seems like a giant step backward. This is a red herring as I've pointed out. Objective-C provides run-time support for determining whether an object can handle a message. C++ programmers are familiar with dealing with run-time errors - exceptions. Dealing with unimplemented messages at run-time is no different. Some would argue that continuing to use an early-binding, static language at a time when distributed programming and other innovative technologies that require greater flexibility are gaining popularity is adherence to the status quo and inappropriate. A language designed for system programming, maximum safety, and good performance is difficult to adopt to a more dynamic problem domain. Applying further bandaides to try to simulate a more dynamic behavior becomes a process of diminishing returns which is where C++ seems to be now. > I must have missed those zillion discussions of why Objective-C is a better > OOPL than C++. Care to elaborate? It's difficult to have zillions of discussions when zillions know C++ side and only a few know Objective-C :-) I don't like to characterize any language as "better" than another. Most languages were designed for particular purposes and are appropriate for those purposes. But using Objective-C to write an operating system or C++ to write a distributed, extensible application may both be examples where better language choices exist. > I > would claim (and I know I'm not alone) that C is, at best, barely adequate > for software engineering. I agree. ANSI C is an improvement over K.& R. C. C++ has added a lot to the language with most of > the additions focused on making it easier to write large robust systems. I agree that C++ is certainly a better ANSI C. > What has Objective-C done to meet this goal? Objective-C is based on ANSI C as is C++. If one believes that object-oriented design can, in general, make writing and maintaining large, robust systems easier (I do), then many believe that Objective-C implements more completely those features generally acknowledged as characterizing object-oriented languages like Smalltalk. Objective-C's run-time supports both flexibility and robustness. > C++ was not haphazardly designed I don't believe it was, but it wasn't designed for many of the purposes that it is being used for. The extensions that have been grafted onto C++ have made the language so complex that using it well has become very difficult. and it doesn't "promote arcane usage and > bad style". Programmers promote arcane usage and bad style, but C++ seems to support such problems more readily than languages with simpler syntax and feature sets like Objective-C. > Slamming C++ because its a big > language is absurd: the language was written for professional developers > who can relatively easily learn the mechanics of the language. Many feel that using a very complex language like C++ or Ada is an impediment. It's easy to understand this. If most people must buy and comprehend large books or attend programming courses to master a language, then I think that the language complexity is bound to impact negatively on programmer productivity and code quality. There are > valid criticisms of C++, but they're almost entirely due to backward > compatibility with C. And Objective-C shares these weaknesses. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.232.56.18!news.ultranet.com!usenet From: "Dirk P. Fromhein" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 14:08:04 +0500 Organization: Watershed Technologies, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <32D75874.37DD@watershed.com> References: <5b1omq$adg@nntp1.apple.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: minglewood.watershed.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11074 comp.sys.next.programmer:21724 > backward compatibility with C does make C++ less safe than it would > otherwise have been, but in the hands of a skilled engineer it's a powerful > and effective tool. I would like to point out the last line... "a skilled engineer" To a "skilled engineer" the *elimitation* of "type-saftety" is a powerful and effective tool. Take a look on Wall Street, most trading apps are done in SmallTalk. I've also worked with complete trading systems done in Objective-C. We have apps at are at about 200K lines of code (yeah yeah, I know a bad measurement) that currently have 0 crash/critical, 0 Major bugs (in Objective-C) (five full time engineers). Our sister project done in C++ with twice the number of engineers has over 600 crash/critical, and some ungodly number of Major bugs. (We have five levels of rating bugs). We are going to go production in a few weeks, they... It comes down to the quality of your people... I also find that C++ forces "odd" Object Models. Any change to the Object Model in C++ after coding begins is a MAJOR effort... I have not foud this to be the case with Objective-C, but that might just be what I have seen. Dirk Fromhein df@watershed.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.137.48.145!news3.agis.net!agis!news.soltec.net!racecarr From: racecarr@soltec.com (Tony M. Carr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:11:38 -0600 Organization: Race Carr Unlimited Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp28.cu.soltec.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21725 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53714 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180454 comp.sys.mac.system:192563 In article <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net>, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > > Example: does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup > > utility with a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin > > or Dantz who make backup software more or less eager to port to > > Rhapsody? I think less likely, because the number of potential > > buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the existance of tar and freeware > > extentions. > > I don't think it effects them one bit. > Especially since tar doesn't do any compression, it simply lumps many files into one file. That's why so many files on the internet have *.tar.gz file names. They're run through tar then through gzip to compress the tar file. There will definitely be a market for Stuffit & Retrospect under Rhapsody. Tony C. -- Tony M. Carr Veteran of the Psychic War #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 11 Jan 1997 20:15:27 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21726 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53715 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180456 comp.sys.mac.system:192565 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: [in regards to UNIX shell utilities] : The problem is that I believe this will lead to dependance on them, and : let's face it, a lot of what's in there is not all that great code. I think developers shouldn't be given APIs or frameworks because this will lead to dependence on them. Next thing you know they'll be wanting compilers. Computers shouldn't have operating systems, because, let's face it, what's in there isn't all that great code. : Yes, but the quality of these applications varies, some is passable, : lots os terrible. rm doesn't even ask you to confirm, let alone allow you : to rescue the items. It's not lazy coders that's the problem, it's the : code that exists from years ago that is. Now demoing at MacWorld! It's the person without a clue whatsoever! Have you ever even *used* a UNIX shell prompt? It's clear that you don't have any idea what you're talking about. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 11 Jan 1997 20:17:15 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5b8sgb$6ue@darla.visi.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bigews.shef.ac.uk> <5b4b90$9u8@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21727 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53716 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180458 comp.sys.mac.system:192567 : > This system will continue to : > work fine with the various System 7 upgrades and isn't a system that Apple : > has targeted for Rhapsody. : : Exactly the problem. Damn. You mean my Apple //e won't run Rhapsody either? Apple sucks. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!usenet From: Mike Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 06:48:42 +0000 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 30 Message-ID: <32E1C3C0.3E5A@washdc.mindspring.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: indigo2@washdc.mindspring.com NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kbae8.dialup.mindspring.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Server-Date: 19 Jan 1997 11:46:00 GMT X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21728 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53725 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180470 comp.sys.mac.system:192575 Nathan M. Urban wrote: > > In article , jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: [...] > > Where are drive icons kept? > > There are no drive icons. Unix drives look like folders; they're > mounted directly into the filesystem wherever you want (and have > permission to put them). For example, you could have all your users' > directories stored on another drive and mount it as the /Users > folder. You literally can't tell what drive a folder is stored on > unless you open up an inspector. I'm not so sure I understand this completely. Tell me if I'm wrong, but if this is the case, then I could have four 2Gb hard drives all mounted at the same place in the file system and it would appear that I have one 8Gb hard drive, right? And the OS will know when one fills up and begin using available space on the next drive? And I could just keep on growing my hard drive? Could I set things up so that, using the four drive example above, two of the drives are a mirror of the other two? And if I pulled one of the drives, things would keep humming along? Are these just fantasies of mine because I don't understand what you're saying? Mike #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 10 Jan 1997 21:50:09 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21729 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53733 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180489 comp.sys.mac.system:192588 Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org wrote: : As a programmer, I rely on the presence of /bin /usr/bin etc... stuff. : I prefer to do this: system("df -i /Disk|grep dev > /tmp/df.result"); than to : rewrite the df code. Then I can proceed the /tmp/df.result file to see how : many inodes used/free on the local disk thus avoiding the "out of inodes" : message. : Stripping those UNIX tools would make developing software much more : difficult. As a long time UNIX user, I sometimes find myself yearning for grep, or sed, or f77? or ... on my Mac. And in the little time I've spent on NeXT systems, I found NeXT to be the user-friendliest UNIX. But I don't think that makes OpenStep user-friendly enough to be the NeXT-MacOS. Hancock and Amelio have said that additional effort will be made to de-UNIXize Rhapsody, including a "Advanced Macintosh Look & Feel". Whether this means replacing the file manager with something Finder-like or a more extensive revision including replacing the kernal, etc., we'll have to wait and see. The UNIX commands everyone is so concerned about fall into 3 categories, Applications, (tar, emacs, ...), Core OS functions (passwd, mount, ...), and System services (df, cp, rm, mkdir, ...). Every OS provides some form of the later 2 sets. For example, Apple will provide a system-wide file removal function for developers to use, even if it not the Unix rm. A principle difference between UNIX and MacOS is the ability of a user, from a CLI, to access such system services. Certainly, such a CLI will be completely optional in Rhapsody. The question is how far does de-UNIXize go? Is hiding it from novice users enough, or does it need to disappear completely? We'll all have to wait a few months to know, since I doubt it's even been completely decided by the Apple-NeXT system software team. One thing I'm pretty sure of is that the applications like tar, emacs, and especially cc, will not be present. This new OS will not survive without developer support, and I mean support by current Mac developers, not NeXT developers. Apple can't afford to upset its developers by giving away things that will in any way make users reluctant to buy new software. Yes, I know that this will break the current NeXTStep and its applications, but this in not NeXTStep 5 we're discussing, but MacOS 8. A lot of this thread is "NeXT wouldn't do ..." or "That would break existing NeXT applications", but it's not NeXT doing it, it's Apple. We'll see what the amalgamation of Apple and NeXT produces. It'll be a much different OS than either the Mac or NeXT adherents expect. I'm hopeful, but I expect any CLI to be an application you buy or at least download. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!prim.demon.co.uk!dave From: Dave Griffiths Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:11:52 GMT Organization: Primitive Software Ltd. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <1997Jan19.121152.449@prim.demon.co.uk> References: X-Mail2News-User: news@prim.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-7.mail.demon.net!relay-5.mail.demon.net!prim.demon.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21730 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11075 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3605 In article Charles W Swiger writes: > >There are some nice aspects to Java (especially the package hierarchy >for multiple namespaces), but it is not nearly as mature as Obj-C and >the object libraries available for Obj-C. Let's not forget that there is no standard "object library" for Obj-C. Obj-C by itself is pretty useless, you need at least either the Object or NSObject class. The latter came into being, what, two years ago? Not sure what the Gnu people are doing, but that might constitute a third version. I would argue that Java is as mature as the Foundation Kit and is certainly being used by a lot more people. Dave #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!prim.demon.co.uk!dave From: Dave Griffiths Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 11:56:33 GMT Organization: Primitive Software Ltd. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <1997Jan19.115633.364@prim.demon.co.uk> References: <32D33F89.7C0E@watershed.com> <5b1j73$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> X-Mail2News-User: news@prim.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-7.mail.demon.net!relay-6.mail.demon.net!prim.demon.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11076 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3606 comp.sys.next.programmer:21731 In article <5b1j73$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) writes: > > NeXT apparently recently released support for mixing Java and Objective-C >to the extent that a class implemented in one language could be subclassed in >the other language, so this might be a reasonable approximation if it works >seamlessly. I don't have any details about this, so maybe I just dreamed it >:-) As I understand it, it's not quite seamless. If you have a Java subclass of an Obj-C class, the Java code cannot access the superclass instance variables directly. But a lot of people would consider that a good thing. Dave #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsout1.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.serv.net!news.omnigroup.com!news.omnigroup.com!not-for-mail From: toon@gaea.titan.org (Greg Titus) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 20 Jan 1997 07:33:13 -0800 Organization: Omni Development, Inc. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5c037p$57q@gaea.titan.org> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5bmhl7$qqf@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gaea Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11077 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3608 comp.sys.next.programmer:21732 I'm skpping over several parts of your post because I think they've been adequately answered elsewhere. Anders Pytte (milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com) wrote: : I don't understand how this works. May one create a behavior just once, as : protocols, mix them into various objects, go back and change the behavior, : and have this change effect all classes to which the protocols have been : added? Not directly. Protocols are inheritence of interface, not of implementation. Java's concept of interfaces is similar. To combine implementation functionality you would generally use object composition under Obj-C. : May the classes to which you have added a set of protocols be passed to : methods that take as an argument any classes containing that particular : set of protocals? If not yes to all the above then there is really no : equivalence to multiple inheritence. It isn't equivalent to multiple inheritence, as you can see above. Protocols are a more natural construct than MI in a couple of the patterns in which MI might be used by C++ programmers. In Obj-C, of course, you can send any object to any method if you are not using static typing; what you are really asking is whether you can use static typing with protocols to make the compiler check that you aren't sending any messages to an an object not in the protocol.... Yes, you can. The Objective-C syntax looks like: - (void)aMethod:(id )argThatConformsToProtocol; or more complicated: - (void)anotherMethod:(SomeSuperClass *)arg; The first method takes an argument that conforms to the ProtocolName protocol, the second takes an argument that is a SomeSuperClass or subclass thereof, and also conforms to the Foo, Bar, and Baz protocols. (Of course, if SomeSuperClass conforms to all these protocols itself, you aren't gaining anything by this declaration. You'd use this kind of thing where you wanted to make sure the method was called with only the subset of subclasses that responded to the messages you wanted.) Also, protocols are first class objects, and you can test at runtime whether an object conforms to a protocol (similar to the way you can ask an object whether it implements a particular method). - (BOOL)conformsToProtocol:(Protocol *)aProtocol; ---Greg --------------------- Greg Titus Omni Development Inc. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Doesn't anyone know about power management? Date: 20 Jan 1997 16:41:52 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c078g$325i@news.doit.wisc.edu> Reply-To: giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: animas.chem.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Hi, I have posted several times asking for any information anyone might have on the interface the kernel has with the APM bios, since NeXT won't provide it (though I am still working on them). I have yet to recieve ANY information. It seems surprising that *no one* else has even looked into this. Please, if you have any insights or information about the way the mach kernel in 3.3 and 4.x deals with power management, I would appreciate the info. I would like to try to write a driver to improve the performance, as well as providing working suspend/resume, particularly for Toshiba Tecras. I have downloaded the APM specs and for the most part understand how the bios portion should work, it's just that the kernel has some built in routines that aren't published which interface with the bios. Thanks -- Michael Giddings giddings@chem.wisc.edu giddings@barbarian.com (608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851 http://www.barbarian.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:55:37 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 41 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk > In article , > acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) writes: > What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this > that the Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as > described, why on earth did the universe at large adopt C++ > instead? Why did the universe accept DOS? MSWord? Manual insert/eject floppies? VHS videos? people buy what they're told to buy. Even programmers (who should be smarter than average) follow the crowd. Most don't want to stand up and shout about making things better. In article shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > The background of C++ is more control-driven, while the > background of Objective-C (Smalltalk) was more event-driven. At the > time, this was somewhat of a big concern, because you had to buy into > a couple paradigm shifts all at once. My first reaction to C++ was "this isn't OO". In C++ the objects exist within the code. In Objective C the code exists within the objects. It makes all the difference. >Programming NeXT's AppKit is very Zen-like Giving up the flow of control is the greatest step forwards a programmer can make. "he who would hold it in his grasp loses it". once released you build objects which ARE things. They have behaviour which DOES things. the code becomes irrelevant. Actually my favourite quote at the moment is "to gain knowledge, add something every day. to gain wisdom remove something everyday." or to missquote "to gain code, add something every day. to gain a program remove something everyday." "to gain features, add something every day. to gain a functioanality remove something everyday." "to gain programming staff, add something every day. to gain a customers remove something everyday." $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!nntpfeed.doc.ic.ac.uk!sunsite.doc.ic.ac.uk!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!warwick!leicester!usenet From: Michael Hudson Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:48:33 +0000 Organization: University of Leicester, UK Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: none NNTP-Posting-Host: mac26.geol.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11078 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3609 comp.sys.next.programmer:21735 I have just read in excess of twenty posts about "Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks)" that discussed the relative merits of Objective-C and C++. Not one of these mentioned templates. Does Objective-C have templates? While we're about it, are the following features present, absent or irrelevant? (I'm not implying that I couldn't live without them all; I'm just curious) RTTI Exceptions The STL Function overloading User defined type conversions I apologise if I'm being uncultured, but C++ is my only language. -- Regards, Michael Hudson Please don't email this address - it's not mine. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!news From: "Thomas E. Zak" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:49:26 -0500 Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 109 Message-ID: <32E3A216.794B@earthlink.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E1C3C0.3E5A@washdc.mindspring.com> <0msZFYq00iWTM1J=5W@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E21849.265F@washdc.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pmsb29.pms.ford.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; IRIX 5.3 IP22) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53749 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180506 comp.sys.mac.system:192603 comp.sys.next.programmer:21736 Mike wrote: > > Charles William Swiger wrote: > > > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 19-Jan-97 Hard Drive as > > Folders? (was.. by Mike@washdc.mindspring.c ... If two people use the computer, can they map the same > hard drive to two different points in the file system? > Speaking about Unix in general, rather than Next, or whatever this thread started with.. If you mean linking the entire hard drive at two different points in the file system, NO. But you can link the hard drive at one point and use symbolic links (aliases) to make it appear that it is in two locations. If you mean link different partitions in separate locations, then yes, it is possible and happens quite often. Under Unix you are able to take fractions of drives or multiple drives and treat them as a single entity. > If I had a 2Gb drive with two 1Gb partitions, would I be able to have > one partition mapped into the file system for user A's account and the > other partition mapped into the file system for user B's account? That'd > be nice: neither user could muck around with the other's documents. > Although I see some problems with that if they had to share certain > files. No, I don't believe that you can have two drives with the same name, swapping between them based on userid. It would make it difficult for the superuser to handle them, since his account must be able to access both drives. The way that this is handled would be to have 2 or 3 separate drives (assuming you want to limit the space usage of the users). For example /machinename/u/personA (home directory of person A) /machinename/u/personB (home directory of person B) /machinename/projects ( common files and programs) the file permissions for those drives ( which are set the same way as folders and files ), would say that only person A (and root)has permission to read or write files in the personA directory. Likewise for person B and his directory. Finally the project directory should be readable and writeable by everybody in this project group (each user belongs to one or more groups). A simplified explanation of Unix permissions: drives, folders, files, links(aliases),devices(tape, cdrom, printers) all have the same base set of permisisons permisions for the owner (everything is owned by somebody) permissions for the group (everything has a group it belongs to ) permissions for everybody ( if you're not the onwer and you're not in the same group, then this means you ) The possible permissions are read: can look at the object write: can edit or delete the object execute: can use the object - run an executable program/script - look at the contents for drives/folders So if you don't want somebody mucking around in your stuff, you set the permissions so they cannot. > > This leads me to think that in a networked environment, I would be able > to mount hard drives from other computers into my file system when I > start up, right? Sort of like automounting servers on a Macintosh > network. > Basic NFS (network file system) mounting is done at startup, or whenever you restart the nfs daemons. That will mount the drives of other machines onto your machine. Automounting under Unix has a different meaning. This means that the drives are NOT mounted on startup, They are mounted only when you try to access them, and once you leave those drives idle for a certain time, they are automatically unmounted. > > > Tell me if I'm wrong, but if this is the case, then I could have four 2Gb > > > hard drives all mounted at the same place in the file system and it would > > > appear that I have one 8Gb hard drive, right? And the OS will know when one > > > fills up and begin using available space on the next drive? And I could just > > > keep on growing my hard drive? > > > > > > Could I set things up so that, using the four drive example above, two > > > of the drives are a mirror of the other two? And if I pulled one of the > > > drives, things would keep humming along? > > > > What you are asking for are logical volumes and mirroring. NEXTSTEP > > currently does not support either one, although it would be nice if it > > did. Why don't you make that suggestion to Apple? > > Ahhh. Logical volumes. That's what I want. Would it be difficult for the > guys at NeXT to get logical volumes supported? Are logical volumes a > fairly common part of other operating systems? What would happen if one > of the hard drives that makes up a logical volume takes a dive? Seems > like that would present some pretty sticky problems! > Not being a system administrator, I don't know all of the details. However, you can take four 2GB drives and make them appear as an 8Gb drive. But if you want to change that setup by adding or removing drives, it is a pain in the rear, and you will often have to repartition the drives. If you wanted to add or remove mirroring, that shouldn't be much of a problem, but removing one out of a set of mirrored drives is generally considered an error that needs to be fixed. -- Tom Zak Sterling Technology tzak@earthlink.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.uiowa.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: 19 Jan 1997 17:39:51 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5btm97$i2m@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <5bq73r$e18$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: dlehn@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us A direct to screen API does exist for NeXTstep but it is not portable for obvious reasons to other OpenStep/Hardware combinations. Buffered drawing is no problem with OpenStep (this is the default). Sound, speech, networking are all "built in". In particular, network gaming is AWESOME via nextstep. 3D is an interesting problem. The 3D support in NeXTstep (Renderman) is powerful but slow. Most 3D games will have to write their own engine on any platform. The lack of OpenGL on NeXTstep is a portability problem. See various public domain "GameKits" available via ftp. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 16:50:01 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 73 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E1C3C0.3E5A@washdc.mindspring.com> <0msZFYq00iWTM1J=5W@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E21849.265F@washdc.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <32E21849.265F@washdc.mindspring.com> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53753 comp.sys.mac.system:192606 comp.sys.next.programmer:21738 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180513 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 19-Jan-97 Re: Hard Drive as Folders? .. by Mike@washdc.mindspring.c > > However, when you look at '/' or where some filesystem device is located > > in the WorkSpace, you do in fact see a pretty icon that represents what > > the device is, and you can put new icon files at the top directory of > > whatever device it is if you want to change what that drive looks like. > > Good. I'd hate to think what I would do without all my Simpsons icons! > But wait a second. If two people use the computer, can they map the same > hard drive to two different points in the file system? Yes. That's what you normally do with removable media like a Zip or Jazz drive. Normal hard disks are normally mounted in fixed positions at boot time, and their filesystems stay in the same places for all users. You don't have to mount them like that that if you don't want to, but then they are treated more like removable media in that the console user has permission to do anything to that filesystem, whereas permenently-mounted drives have the standard Unix filesystem permissions enforced. > If I had a 2Gb drive with two 1Gb partitions, would I be able to have > one partition mapped into the file system for user A's account and the > other partition mapped into the file system for user B's account? Yes. > That'd be nice: neither user could muck around with the other's documents. > Although I see some problems with that if they had to share certain > files. The normal Unix permissions allow you to share files with other users according to the control of user, group, and other (aka world) permissions. > This leads me to think that in a networked environment, I would be able > to mount hard drives from other computers into my file system when I > start up, right? Sort of like automounting servers on a Macintosh > network. Of course-- NEXTSTEP comes with NFS, which lets all machines act as both a fileserver client and a fileserver server. [ ... ] >> What you are asking for are logical volumes and mirroring. NEXTSTEP >> currently does not support either one, although it would be nice if it >> did. Why don't you make that suggestion to Apple? > > Ahhh. Logical volumes. That's what I want. Would it be difficult for the > guys at NeXT to get logical volumes supported? Are logical volumes a > fairly common part of other operating systems? What would happen if one > of the hard drives that makes up a logical volume takes a dive? Seems > like that would present some pretty sticky problems! That type of functionality is becoming more common, although it's often sold as an add-on product, and yes-- getting it to work reliably even through otherwise-fatal drive crashes is somewhat tricky. > After reading my current issue of SciAm, I'm fully confident that NeXT > is going to kick some ass and give all us Mac people some really slick > stuff. I hope so too, although you should realize that NeXTizens are hoping to see some important things come from the Apple side of the deal.... :-) -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!isst.fhg.de!usenet From: Dirk Vleugels Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: SPARC OpenStep & GCC Date: 19 Jan 1997 23:01:32 +0100 Organization: FhG ISST Dortmund, Germany Lines: 34 Sender: vleugels@po Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: po.do.isst.fhg.de X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 Hi, i installed OpenStep 1.0 on a Creator2 running Solaris 2.5.1, and i'm quite impressed. Question: I do have the header files NS* & stuff + the shared libraries: total 12108 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 14 Jan 19 03:25 libAppKit.so -> libAppKit.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 4282152 Aug 9 03:13 libAppKit.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 18 Jan 19 03:25 libFoundation.so -> libFoundation.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 1346060 Aug 3 04:04 libFoundation.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 20 Jan 19 03:25 libObjcSelector.so -> libObjcSelector.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 363328 Aug 3 04:04 libObjcSelector.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 18 Jan 19 03:25 libidlRuntime.so -> libidlRuntime.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 32508 Aug 3 04:04 libidlRuntime.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 12 Jan 19 03:24 libobjc.so -> libobjc.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 119316 Aug 3 04:04 libobjc.so.1* drwxr-xr-x 3 bin bin 512 Jan 19 03:25 locale/ Is it possible to develop software with the free GCC? Do i need the AppBuilder? I couldn't find a SUN ObjC compiler + OpenStep SDK. Any hints (please reply also by mail)? Dirk -- "It's 206 ms to Chicago, we've got a full disk of GIFs, half a meg of hypertext, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." "Click it." -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 20 Jan 1997 17:46:21 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 72 Message-ID: <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21740 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53757 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180525 comp.sys.mac.system:192621 Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: : raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: : > Example: does the existence of tar, a reasonably able backup : > utility with a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin : > or Dantz who make backup software more or less eager to port to : > Rhapsody? I think less likely, because the number of potential : > buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the existence of tar and freeware : > extensions. : : I don't think it effects them one bit. : : For one, most Mac users are used to Stuffit. They are not used to : opening a unix window, and then figuring out all the options on : tar. They will be much more likely to spend another $30 for a new : version of Stuffit than bothering with tar. : : For two, Stuffit includes a very nice user interface. It is a : "finder interface" to your compressed archive. Tar, by itself, is : relatively crude. A front-end to tar might be competition to : Stuffit, but tar by itself simply can not compete. : : For three, *I* don't use tar as a backup utility, and I'm more : familar with tar than the average mac user is. I would very much : prefer to have something like "Diskfit" for my NeXTSTEP system, : and I've been using NeXTSTEP for years. Then you are essentially arguing that tar is of little use? If this is so, then why bother including it on everyone's disk? But I think this has become too fixated on tar. These are the issues that Apple faces with respect to such Unix utilities. There will be developer pressure on Apple to not duplicate the functions of 3rd party applications. Even before the new OS, Apple's usurpation of functionality was one of the main complaints from developers. Apple is particularly beholden to their developers now since without developer support, Rhapsody is OpenStep/PPC. In general, there are 2 extreme cases. Case #1, Unix utility A does everything (perhaps with a freeware wrapper) and so is a replacement for Mac Software B. In this case the Mac software developer never ports the application. There will be pressure on Apple to drop such functions. Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac application B. In this case, what is the point of including this utility in the OS? Unix compatibility comes the reply. Well, how important is Unix compatibility? It's clear from this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. But how much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple is pitching Rhapsody to? Would they rather have the system take up less space or have Unix compatibility 99% of them would never use. The feelings of NeXT users (none of whom have compatible hardware) are secondary to the 10-100 times larger Mac community. What about find? Should Apple leave the Unix find when we know they're going to include their new V-Twin search engine and Find File. Well, the V-Twin certainly replaces find if you are a GUI user, but what about CLI and scripts? Will Apple leave find for the 1% of users who might want to use their Mac like a Unix box? Naturally, every real example is somewhere in between, but both of the extreme cases argue against strong Unix compatibility. It will be interesting to see how Apple resolves this. Perhaps some add-on Unix compatibility, even from a 3rd party. Apple will need to compromise to fit Rhapsody to the needs of Mac users, and I fear that such compromises will come at the cost of NeXT users expectations. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca!bstone From: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 19 Jan 1997 23:01:08 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 50 Message-ID: <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21741 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53759 comp.sys.mac.system:192625 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180532 Alan Lovejoy (alovejoy@concentric.net) wrote: > > With the CLI tools under Unix, sending a message in C is a one-liner: > > > > system("echo 'This is the contents of the message.^D' | mail -s 'My > > Subject' ''"); > The same could be done in C without using the system() > function. But it would be ugly and awkward by comparison. > However, the fault lies both with C and with the standard C > library. There is no inherent fault of C or C++ that would make this awkward. The fact that the standard C library doesn't include a cross platform standard mail API isn't exactly unique. Very few standard language libraries do. > In some other programming language, such as Smalltalk (hey, you > knew this was coming, right?), coding the above could be as > simple as: > > MailTool > sendMessage: 'This is the contents of the message.' > withSubject: 'My Subject' > to: '" ] ; ... both examples assume that somebody has provided the hypothetical MailTool API, which AFAIK isn't a standard piece of either language. > If it were this simple in C (for everything, not just sending > mail), then perhaps the system() function would be used much > less. Yes, it's true, if there were an API function or method for every conceivable purpose life would be very easy. There isn't. There probably will never be. In the mean time, the system() function can be VERY handy if you know that your target system fully supports the tools you intend to use. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blake W. Stone bstone@dkw.com Technical Director - DKW Systems "Art may imitate life, but life http://www.dkw.com/bstone imitates TV" - Ani Difranco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 17:07:22 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E1C3C0.3E5A@washdc.mindspring.com> <5bulhh$7ch@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3a7.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21742 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53760 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180534 comp.sys.mac.system:192630 In article <5bulhh$7ch@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > And the OS will know when one fills up and begin > > using available space on the next drive? And I could just keep on > > growing my hard drive? > That sounds like RAID to me.. where the OS treats multiple drives like > one and stripes files across all of them. NEXTSTEP doesn't have that.. > though Apple should add it if they want to compete with NT in the server > market. Actually that's a separate issue- the logical volume does not necessarily stripe (indeed this might be a bad thing in case one of the disks goes down), it would work like the disks were large blocks of space to use, and would assemble them into one logical volume. The striping is for extremely fast read and write (note that access times will not be particularly better, just throughput). Finally, mirroring (obviously) is a sort of failsafe, using two disks and doubling the data. I believe RAID is a very specific implementation of these things and not simply the existence of striping/logical volumes/etc. The Mac already has all this as third-party (FWB Toolkit), though it would be nice to see it as part of the system software. It seems a pity to step on FWB's toes that way... but if I'm offered this stuff stock I won't spend too much time feeling sorry for FWB. *shrug* Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:18:31 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <32E14BF1.7D13@afs.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 31 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port5.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11079 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3611 comp.sys.next.programmer:21743 In article <32E14BF1.7D13@afs.com>, greg@afs.com wrote: > Stack based objects that clean themselves up at the end of an execution > block would be a nice figure. Intriguingly, that WAS part of StepStone's > original implementation, but NeXT never supported it. Operator > overloading is one of those things you either love or hate, in my > experience. I can take or leave it. I've seen too many C++ classes where > it's done poorly or unintuitively. I remember coding floating point arithmetic using SANE procedure calls in Lisa Pascal during the earliest days of Macintosh development. That created relatively unreadable code - I'm sure no one misses those days. Now if I want to do alot of fixed point arithmetic (or complex or vector or matrix or topological...) I guess I would prefer using familiar operators. Although I appreciate the generalization, i neither love nor hate operator overloading, but I recognize a class of problems to which they are ideally suited. Once almost any language feature has been around long enough people will compile examples of misuse. We strain to create languages that make bad programming impossible, but I think the only cure is simply good programming practices. In any event, thanks for your good natured remarks. Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.191.160.4!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!lantana.singnet.com.sg!usenet From: HisMajesty Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 21:08:32 +0800 Organization: The WatchTower Lines: 2 Message-ID: <32E36E50.2769@mbox2.singnet.com.sg> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32E1C3C0.3E5A@washdc.mindspring.com> <0msZFYq00iWTM1J=5W@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E21849.265F@washdc.mindspring.com> <5bum0h$9us@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: fatjelly@mbox2.singnet.com.sg NNTP-Posting-Host: ts900-8701.singnet.com.sg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53766 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180547 comp.sys.mac.system:192639 comp.sys.next.programmer:21744 We seem to have some conflict in opinions about locical partition of volumes here. Can anyone confirm? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:10:06 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 47 Message-ID: <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21745 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53793 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180579 comp.sys.mac.system:192661 In article <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > In general, there are 2 extreme cases. Case #1, Unix utility A does > everything (perhaps with a freeware wrapper) and so is a replacement for > Mac Software B. In this case the Mac software developer never ports > the application. There will be pressure on Apple to drop such functions. There probably aren't very many of these. Most of the Unix utilities are rather simple. A typical Mac application will duplicate the functionality of a number of Unix ones, with a nice graphical interface to boot. > Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac application B. > In this case, what is the point of including this utility in the OS? Unix > compatibility comes the reply. Well, how important is Unix compatibility? > It's clear from this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. But how > much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple is pitching Rhapsody > to? Would they rather have the system take up less space or have Unix > compatibility 99% of them would never use. The feelings of NeXT users > (none of whom have compatible hardware) are secondary to the 10-100 times > larger Mac community. Umm, Unix is important for people who want to run servers, you know. There is a lot of server-related software out there for Unix. A lot of it won't work if you throw out random utilities that are generally assumed to exist on a Unix platform. Do you want to see Rhapsody have an impact in the corporate environment? Not everyone is a home user. (And remember, Unix is the only thing that currently competes with Windows NT. Just being able to say that their operating system is Unix gets Apple's foot in the door with the corporate types, most of whom regard the Mac as a toy when it comes to high-end servers.) > What about find? Should Apple leave the Unix find when we know they're > going to include their new V-Twin search engine and Find File. Well, the > V-Twin certainly replaces find if you are a GUI user, but what about CLI and > scripts? Will Apple leave find for the 1% of users who might want to > use their Mac like a Unix box? Why not? All these Unix utilities don't take up much space. Crippling a Unix system isn't worth the effort. The _only_ consideration is whether the existence of these utilities will hurt developers with similar products, and I don't think that this is a serious problem. I doubt 'find' is going to replace V-Twin for desktop use, but there are plenty of sysadmins and shell scripts who use it. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:35:44 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 56 Message-ID: <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21746 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53801 comp.sys.mac.system:192666 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180586 In article <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, > Alan Lovejoy wrote: > >Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. > >I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously > >make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... > Why? Which is better? Accessing system services via distributed message passing, and dynamically loading and unloading object bundles into a running process's context? Or forking and exec'ing a shell to execute a new process, with all its associated overhead, and communicating with stream-based I/O that needs to be parsed into data structures? I like the former approach a lot better. Not that I'm advocating ripping Unix utilities out, or even saying that you shouldn't write apps which call utilities via a system() call. (Unlike some other people on this group...) Far from it. I love Unix and the Unix command line. I just think it would more elegant if most of the Unix functionality were wrappered with objects. Then the utilities could slowly be rewritten into object libraries, so that instead of having programs with object wrappers, you have programs which are thin wrappers around the objects. (Like 'ls' messaging a FileList object or something.) If you design the object wrappers well, you won't even have to change the application code that calls them. The replacement objects will have the same interface as the wrappers; the wrappers would have a system() call implementation, but you wouldn't be able to tell. Then you could either use command-line programs the way you're used to, or programatically interface to the OOP API directly from applications. In practice, the way I think this would happen is Unix utilities being rewritten one-by-one so that they depend on little libraries instead of integrated code, and then making those libraries object-oriented. (It might be better to put object wrappers around C libraries so that you can still access their APIs from C or some non-OOP language if you want.) During the long conversion process, there would still be no problem with writing apps which call programs via object wrappers using the system() call. Comments? Do other Unix hackers think this is the way Unix should evolve? The big problem is something that someone else has mentioned.. The object models of different languages do not agree. I'd love it if everything was based on Obj-C objects, but C++ has a tough time with them. You can use things like CORBA, but it makes ugly compromises to preserve language-independence (nowhere near as elegant as PDO), IMHO, and imposes a performance penalty. I can't think of a good solution to this problem as long as insufficiently dynamic OOP languages like C++ are in common use. (Dynamic ones have a much easier time talking to each other's objects directly.) -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:41:03 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5c0hof$7hv@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32E21849.265F@washdc.mindspring.com> <5bum0h$9us@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E36E50.2769@mbox2.singnet.com.sg> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53806 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180596 comp.sys.mac.system:192670 comp.sys.next.programmer:21747 In article <32E36E50.2769@mbox2.singnet.com.sg>, fatjelly@mbox2.singnet.com.sg wrote: > We seem to have some conflict in opinions about locical partition of > volumes here. Can anyone confirm? Well, where someone else's statements differ from mine, I'm probably wrong. :) Some of the questions have implementation-dependent answers, and I'm not familiar with all implementations. It could be possible that some things I said couldn't be done actually can be done under some operating systems. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 20 Jan 1997 14:51:35 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5c0ic7$ppv@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11081 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3613 comp.sys.next.programmer:21748 In article <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com>, none wrote: > Does Objective-C have templates? No. They're not generally regarded as necessary in a runtime messaging system. In fact, to hear my C++ friends complain, they hurt you more than they help you.. > While we're about it, are the following features present, absent or > irrelevant? (I'm not implying that I couldn't live without them all; I'm > just curious) > RTTI Objective-C's runtime is better than RTTI. > Exceptions I hear C++ does some slick things with exceptions. The OpenStep Foundation Kit has an NSException object you can use, but exceptions aren't built into the language. > The STL Most if not all of this functionality is subsumed into the Foundation Kit. > Function overloading I don't think so. > User defined type conversions Absent. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.algonet.se!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:16:17 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53814 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180611 comp.sys.mac.system:192682 comp.sys.next.programmer:21749 In article <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles W Swiger wrote: > Because you need the shell and the utils in order for the operating > system to boot in a flexible way that can be maintained by a system > administrator. Great, so have a shell that calls the OOPS libs. In fact, have lots of them. > Furthermore, there are a large number of Unix server applications which > are based off of those utilities. And which ones would the average Mac user want? Remember, there's 25 million Macs out there, and I'd be willing to bet that 90% of them could care less. Notice how "overwhelming" POSIX support was wanted under NT for instance. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:02:03 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <5boces$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21750 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53815 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180612 comp.sys.mac.system:192683 In article <5boces$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > We probably wouldn't have these examples to look at (and more > importantly, *use*) if these shell utilities weren't available *and* their > functionality wasn't duplicated in functional or class APIs. Balogna. There are neither Unix utils built into the Mac OS, nor are there any OOPS libs either. Nevertheless the exact examples given here of why you need the utils already exist on the Mac in "pure" form - ie, not a shell to a Unix utils. This point is simply invalid. > You made the point that if all the functionality of shell utilities were > available in function or class libraries, then these shell utilities wouldn't > be necessary for apps to use. This is a valid point, but one which hasn't > been achieved yet. It's a worthy goal, but until that happens, don't rip out > the shell utilities just to save a few MB of cheap disk space. That's not quite my point, although it's one of them. The main complaint is that as long as these utilities exist, so will code that accesses them. This is bad for the users, for the system, and most of all, for the developer. Why the developer? Well none of these utilities exist on the OpenStep/NT platform either to my (limited) knowledge, which means if you use them you thus are unable to run under that system. A OOPS lib, even one that is simply a shell for underlying Unix code is inherently portable, as OpenStep itself amply proves. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:06:20 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21751 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53816 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180613 comp.sys.mac.system:192684 In article <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Or for the people who prefer using a CLI to a GUI in order to perform > some tasks. Agreed. > You don't have to send them out to the shell, you can fork 'grep' > directly. Yes yes, but it's the same process to the developer for all intents and purposes. Instead of "run this query object" it's "flatten this object's search string to text, fire up grep, process the strings that come back into objects again and then display them". > grep isn't a bad example, actually. Even in our > object-oriented world, plenty of things (such as mail folders) are > stored as text Whereas a OOPS based search engine (lots of which exist and Apple's will almost certainly appear in this new uber-OS) do all the same and more, from direct calls. > It is certainly cleaner that way. I would like to see more Unix > utilities have their core functionality folded out into separate > libraries, with the CLI utils being mostly wrappers to those APIs. Well this is all I am asking for. > However, practically speaking, it is just plain a lot less work to put > OOP wrappers around existing CLI programs. Hey, fair enough. If that's the solution, so be it. And yet, I see no one doing this, do you? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:07:31 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21752 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53817 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180614 comp.sys.mac.system:192685 In article <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com>, rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com (Rajnish Dogra) wrote: > As far I know NeXT ships (with OPENSTEP for NT) some if not all the unix > utilities and even has Terminal.app. Really?? Uggg. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:14:36 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21753 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53818 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180615 comp.sys.mac.system:192686 In article <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: > This would make it more difficult to use C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG, > Assembly and other non-OO languages with the OS. You make that sounds like a bad thing. But seriously, this strikes me as a problem for data-processing like tasks only. The entire GUI is already OOPS lib based, and I don't see anyone crying over that. Do you? Although I haven't even used ObjC on the NeXT platform yet, I understand that many (all) of the above languages already exist. Are they all limited to creating programs that run from the CLI only? If not, it seems this isn't much of a problem after all. > more difficult to use OO languages whose object models were not compatible > with the one used to implement the kernel and libraries. Only in their current form. Apple's got more and more code being based on SOM, which has no such limitation. > One could perhaps use CORBA/SOM/DSOM to address such issues. But CORBA exacts > a noticeable performance penalty. Well I might be missing something here, but I always believed that if your compiler talked SOM, there was no inherent overhead. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:22:48 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21754 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53819 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180616 comp.sys.mac.system:192687 In article <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > (Win-like???? Are we talking about the same Windows? You know, that > operating system that likes to dump files everywhere on your drive? > Windows does NOT have a mandatory Applications folder or anything like > that.) How can you possibly say that after blasting me over not wanting /bin on my drive! > I don't understand why you want to scatter your applications all over > the filesystem. Because it's MY file system. You don't have to like it, do what you wish. > I don't know anyone who does this. Even the Mac > people tend to put everything in the Applications folder or a > subdirectory of it. Balogna, I can't think of a single Mac I've every had the pleasure of using that had all of it's programs arranged such, and that's a large number of Macs (in the hundreds). That's just _wrong_. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:25:06 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21755 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53820 comp.sys.mac.system:192688 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180617 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > But that's not what you're arguing about-- you seem to be claiming that > it is wrong for a program to execute a CLI utility to perform some task. > And that's silly. Why don't you show me how you'd use system calls on > any OS you'd like to send email? Ever heard of MAPI? Sure you have. > system("echo 'This is the contents of the message.^D' | mail -s 'My > Subject' ''"); Who's parameters have likely been "strung out" from objects running under OpenStep. I'd rather just pass the object, thank you. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:29:13 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21756 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53821 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180618 comp.sys.mac.system:192689 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > I disagree strongly. I do not believe the standard C library should > have to implement every conceivable command that is available via a > fork()/exec() or system() call. For gossakes, people, there is > something to be said for a manageable API instead of throwing everything > including the kitchen sink into the "standard system library". What "standard system library"? Who's arguing for that? No one that I can see. As far as I can tell, we're all arguing for a bunch of small shared libs. Geez. > For example, system("/bin/rm -rf /tmp/My_Programs_Temp_Dir/*.ckp") is myQuery.Find Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!Oslo2.Norway.EU.net!Norway.EU.net!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!en.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:30:27 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21757 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53822 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180619 comp.sys.mac.system:192690 In article <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Really, there's no point in ripping out Unix. Yes there _is_: a) easier on the programmers b) more cross platform Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:27:43 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21758 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53823 comp.sys.mac.system:192691 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180620 In article <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) wrote: > ... both examples assume that somebody has provided the > hypothetical MailTool API, which AFAIK isn't a standard piece of > either language. Once again: that doesn't mean it shouldn't be. MAPI... MAPI... MAPI.... > Yes, it's true, if there were an API function or method for every > conceivable purpose life would be very easy. There isn't. So wait, they all exist in the form of CLI utils, but it's impossible to make them in API form. Is it just me? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.glink.net.hk!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 15:45:11 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5c0lgn$r2b@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21759 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53824 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180621 comp.sys.mac.system:192692 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com>, > rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com (Rajnish Dogra) wrote: > > As far I know NeXT ships (with OPENSTEP for NT) some if not all the unix > > utilities and even has Terminal.app. > Really?? Uggg. No, not really. It would be pointless to port a Unix environment over to NT; OpenStep doesn't need it. They only ported a few things. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:19:14 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21760 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53825 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180623 comp.sys.mac.system:192694 In article <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > I just don't understand you, Maury. You complain about HP making > gratuitous changes in the file system that does nothing but make it > difficult to work in a multivendor Unix environment, and then advocate > Apple making gratuitous changes in the filesystem that does nothing but > make it difficult to work in a multivendor Unix environment. Ahhhh, close except for that last line there. In fact, that's the "non important part to be added later". It's only the NeXT-ites that give two hoots about this, the VAST majority of the users of the resulting OS will be Mac users and they simply don't care about the later. > The only reason I can see for that is you have a vendetta against Unix and > oppose compatibility on general principles. It sure doesn't seem > to be for functional reasons. That's right, it's all illogical. And the sky is indeed green on my planet. Happy now? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:26:20 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21761 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53826 comp.sys.mac.system:192696 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180626 In article <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: > MailTool > sendMessage: 'This is the contents of the message.' > withSubject: 'My Subject' > to: ' References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gaea Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11084 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3614 comp.sys.next.programmer:21762 Michael Hudson writes: >I have just read in excess of twenty posts about "Multiple Inheritance >(Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks)" that discussed the relative merits of >Objective-C and C++. >Does Objective-C have templates? Nope. Don't need 'em. Templates are a hack to get around the limitations in C++'s strong binding. When you want to manipulate objects in a generic way in Objective-C you just declare your arguments as "id" (any object), and the same method works for everything instead of the compiler making multiple copies of the code for every type of object you might use. >While we're about it, are the following features present, absent or >irrelevant? (I'm not implying that I couldn't live without them all; I'm >just curious) >RTTI RunTime Type Information, definitely. Classes, methods, selectors, and protocols are all first class objects. You can ask whether an object responds to a particular message, or set of messages (protocol), or is of a particular class, et cetera. There is enough information so that it is trivial to take a string entered in the user interface, say "foo", and find whether an object responds to a setFoo: method, if so call it, if not check to see if thee object contains an instance variable named foo, and if so set a new value directly into the object. This breaks encapsulation, of course, but is useful in situations where you want complete control over an object - this is how Interface Builder does its live GUI binding. >Exceptions Yep. Wrapped in objects, even. Get passed back across Distributed Objects connections, even. >The STL No, a lot of equivalent functionality is in NeXT's Foundation framework. >Function overloading >User defined type conversions Nope. These lose a lot of their utility when type isn't so important, as in C++. >I apologise if I'm being uncultured, but C++ is my only language. C++ and Objective-C can be used together, also - even mixed into the same file, and compiled with the -ObjC++ flag, which supports the superset of the two languages syntax. (The class hierarchies of ObjC and C++ can not be mixed, but they can message one another. Every so often I've used this to good effect, generally writing a low level calculation engine in C++ (complex numbers, or matrices, say) and the rest of the code in ObjC. The only place C++ really shines, IMHO, is in these very small, self-contained worlds where lots of small inline functions and operator overloading makes it into more of a macro language than an OOP language.) --Greg -------------------- Greg Titus Omni Development Inc. toon@omnigroup.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:13:30 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21763 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53828 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180630 comp.sys.mac.system:192700 > In article <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > > > What about find? Should Apple leave the Unix find when we know they're > > going to include their new V-Twin search engine and Find File. Well, the > > V-Twin certainly replaces find if you are a GUI user, but what about CLI and > > scripts? Will Apple leave find for the 1% of users who might want to > > use their Mac like a Unix box? Actually, Apple should let all those people who want Unix hang. Who cares if they buy Solaris, or Windows NT, or run linux on a cheap Pentium? Who needs em. Apple doesn't need new markets, right? Their current markets are doing *just fine*. They're doing just fine on their own. Selling to them home users, schools, and artists. Oh, that's right. Apple's marketshare is dwindling. Apple's traditional markets are moving to Windows. Schools, homes, graphics professionals. Evidently, Apple must not be selling what people want anymore. Apple isn't even holding on to their *current* customers. I think Apple should spend some time to find out exactly what users want. *Not* current Mac users. Former Mac users. Mac users who have left the Mac for NT, Solaris, Linux, IRIX, whatever. Obviously, Apple can't grow their marketshare selling to current Mac owners. Apple has to design Rhapsody for former Mac owners. Then they have to make it clear that Rhapsody is what they really wanted, and that they should come back. An Intel port of Rhapsody would make this easier. Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% marketshare. A 16% increase in Mac marketshare. Furthermore, it's an increase, which Apple hasn't seen in many moons. If Apple can grab back the graphics professionals who are using NT, they could probably add another .5%. If Apple can grab webserver marketshare from WinNT, that might account for another .5%. (This would likely be easier if Apple shipped Rhapsody on Intel). That'd increase Mac marketshare by another 1%. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 16:21:24 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5c0nkk$r0l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21764 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53834 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180639 comp.sys.mac.system:192702 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > grep isn't a bad example, actually. Even in our > > object-oriented world, plenty of things (such as mail folders) are > > stored as text > Whereas a OOPS based search engine (lots of which exist and Apple's will > almost certainly appear in this new uber-OS) do all the same and more, > from direct calls. Of course. Direct calls are better as long as you still have a CLI you can use. I'm just saying that when you're doing a bunch of streams processing, there isn't as much of a need to have a pure object library. You can convert from objects to streams and back again without much difficulty. What's hard is when a CLI program takes complex input and produces complex output which needs to be parsed. _That_ is a good candidate for ripping out its guts and putting them in a library. > > It is certainly cleaner that way. I would like to see more Unix > > utilities have their core functionality folded out into separate > > libraries, with the CLI utils being mostly wrappers to those APIs. > Well this is all I am asking for. There is a slow trend in this direction. It's happening first with programs which need to do common things. For example, GNU now has a separate library for doing regular expression searches because so many of its utilities need to do that. I hope to see more of this in the future. > > However, practically speaking, it is just plain a lot less work to put > > OOP wrappers around existing CLI programs. > Hey, fair enough. If that's the solution, so be it. And yet, I see no > one doing this, do you? By "this" do you mean OOP wrappers around CLI programs? If so, then I would say that most NEXTSTEP programs which call CLI programs use OOP wrappers around those programs. They may not be complete wrappers, only ones that embed the subset of the CLI program's functionality needed by the app. I'd like to see more of the public-domain developers putting their wrappers in separate libraries and making those separately available, so we can all benefit from them. Certainly, _I_ would do so if I wrote an app that used a lot of CLI functionality. (I haven't yet, but there are a few things I've been considering.) I think that in general, NEXTSTEP programmers are pretty good about proper OOP design. However, I don't think that even most OOP programmers have really gotten into this "objectware" concept. Even under NEXTSTEP, you don't see as many pure object libraries being distributed as you should; too many things are still folded into applications. This needs to change. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!agate!news.ucsc.edu!metricom37.ucsc.edu!user From: bwanga@cats.ucsc.edu (Timothy A. Seufert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:04:44 -0800 Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc. Lines: 38 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: metricom37.ucsc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21765 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53841 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180649 comp.sys.mac.system:192705 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >In article <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com >(Art Isbell) wrote: > >> Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, >> WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced >> 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix > > Read it carefully, I was taling about calling these things from the >command line, not the command line itself or using it as a person. IE, >programs should not have to call things by "pretending" to typing in CLI >commands. Why not? In the current MacOS, many programs send Apple events to the Finder to do some things. Why not use functionality that's debugged and optimized? If I need to copy a file from within my program, I'd sure like to be able to do it just by exec'ing cp. It's almost guaranteed to be better thought out than any copy algorithm I might come up with offhand (believe it or not, optimized file copying is not totally trivial!). I don't have to worry about handling all the possible pathological error conditions either, because cp will take care of that for me. I really don't see why you've got such a huge problem with having a UNIX environment present in Rhapsody. It doesn't really take up much space, it adds a large amount of functionality, it will attract developers with UNIX products, etc., etc. If it's effectively hidden from the user who doesn't want to ever see a bash prompt, then it's fine to have it there. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------+ |Tim Seufert, bwanga@cats.ucsc.edu | UselessWastedSpace(tm) | | "I never give them hell. I just tell the truth, and they | | think it is hell." -Harry S Truman | +-----------------------------------------------------------+ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.us.net!usenet From: bchin@us.net (Bill Chin) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone know about power management? Date: 20 Jan 1997 21:46:13 GMT Organization: US Net - MD,DC,VA ISP - info@us.net Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5c0p35$hak@news.us.net> References: <5c078g$325i@news.doit.wisc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nikita.richmond.us.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) wrote: >It seems surprising that *no one* else has even looked into this. Please, if >you have any insights or information about the way the mach kernel in 3.3 and >4.x deals with power management, I would appreciate the info. I would like >to try to write a driver to improve the performance, as well as providing >working suspend/resume, particularly for Toshiba Tecras. I'm not surprised no one has responded. Not many people run NS/OS on laptops, and those that do probably disable APM to get it to work right. half :-) and half :-( >I have downloaded the APM specs and for the most part understand how the bios >portion should work, it's just that the kernel has some built in routines >that aren't published which interface with the bios. I've looked at the APM specs also, and started to look into how Linux handles APM. However, since NeXT hides the APM support, one will have to hack the kernel to change this. Since it works reasonably well on the NEC Versa E I use, there hasn't been enough incentive to look further. :-) At least Apple/NeXT will have to correct some of this to make it work on Mac laptops. -- Bill Chin - bchin@us.net - NeXTmail/MIME welcomed #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca!bstone From: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 22:00:19 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 73 Message-ID: <5c0ptj$cvm@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21767 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53854 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180663 comp.sys.mac.system:192710 William Raphael Hix (raph@porter.as.utexas.edu) wrote: > In general, there are 2 extreme cases. > ... > Case #1, Unix utility A does everything (perhaps with a > freeware wrapper) and so is a replacement for Mac Software B. > ... What about people who are used to Software B and like it? > Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac application B. > In this case, what is the point of including this utility in the OS? > ... What about people who cannot justify the expense of application B? Fractal Design's Dabbler is a poor substitute for their full Painter package, and yet both are sold by the same company! Lastly, as you point out, these are both extreme cases and not representative of the general case. Generalizing from extremes does not tend to yield anything of value. For example, it would be pointless to try to educate a person who already knows everything, and equally pointless to try to educate a person who cannot learn anything. Does this prove that education is pointless? > Well, how important is Unix compatibility? It's clear from > this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. Only because a UNIX derrivative is the underlying operating system. If you get rid of it, you'll need to replace it with another real operating system. Any suggestions? Windows NT? Another UNIX? Or should Apple attempt to develop another operating system from the ground up while ignoring their dwindling share of the market? > But how much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple > is pitching Rhapsody to? Would they rather have the system > take up less space or have Unix compatibility 99% of them would > never use. Replace that with "never knowingly use" and the answer becomes obvious. 99% percent of the Mac users I know never invoke NewHandle directly, so why not remove it from the API to save disk space? > The feelings of NeXT users (none of whom have compatible > hardware) ... Try to avoid making this an Us vs. Them thing. It would be awfully nice to have a sense of community instead of a raging war. Of course some NeXT users do not have hardware compatible with the forthcoming Rhapsody. For that matter, a hell of a lot of Mac users will not have compatible hardware, either. > ... are secondary to the 10-100 times larger Mac community. The feelings of both are moot compared to the technical realities of hosting the OPENSTEP API or a derrivative thereof in a short time frame. There is every reason in the world to believe that the NeXT savvy are more likely to be in tune with these realities than the Mac savvy, no matter how much larger the latter group is. That being said, there sure are a lot of opinions being bandied about as solid technical facts. Time will tell just exactly where we're headed, and I'm eagerly awaiting the results. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blake W. Stone bstone@dkw.com Technical Director - DKW Systems "Art may imitate life, but life http://www.dkw.com/bstone imitates TV" - Ani Difranco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!news.dx.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:15:54 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4msyuOu00iV0M52s5o@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53856 comp.sys.mac.system:192714 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180667 comp.sys.next.programmer:21768 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 CLI utils vs. objects (was .. by Nathan M. Urban@csugrad. > In practice, the way I think this would happen is Unix utilities being > rewritten one-by-one so that they depend on little libraries instead of > integrated code, and then making those libraries object-oriented. (It > might be better to put object wrappers around C libraries so that you > can still access their APIs from C or some non-OOP language if you > want.) During the long conversion process, there would still be no > problem with writing apps which call programs via object wrappers using > the system() call. > > Comments? Do other Unix hackers think this is the way Unix should > evolve? I believe it is unfeasible to write sensible API's for every conceivable Unix utility and to replace all of the expressive power of the shell. There are roughly 1200 executables in my path; about 100 or so are already available as functions via the BSD 4.3 system call API, which leaves over a thousand left. I have no objection to people writing a good OO API to encapsulate the functionality currently provided by popular tools like grep and find-- I think it's a good idea. But people seem to think that simply providing such an API means that the /bin/grep and /bin/find utilities aren't needed anymore, and that claim makes no sense, for reasons that I've explained in other articles. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:58:44 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53858 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180670 comp.sys.mac.system:192716 comp.sys.next.programmer:21769 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles W Swiger > wrote: > > Furthermore, there are a large number of Unix server applications which > > are based off of those utilities. > > And which ones would the average Mac user want? Remember, there's 25 > million Macs out there, and I'd be willing to bet that 90% of them could > care less. Notice how "overwhelming" POSIX support was wanted under NT > for instance. Considering that Apple can't survive by just pleasing current Mac users, this isn't a very good argument. Apple cannot gain marketshare by catering to the tastes of a rapidly shrinking user base. They have to start working on people who aren't Mac users. To do that, Apple has to figure out why they're not Mac users. For some significant population, this is going to be because they need Unix. Apple cannot afford to ignore this market. BTW, POSIX support has little to do with Unix utilities. It's more of a C API issue, IIRC. The idea was that if you write to the POSIX api, you can more easily recompile on another OS. IIRC, using POSIX features means you cannot use native features. You probably couldn't write a POSIX app on NT that used a Windows GUI, for instance. The lack of supporting Unix programs probably hurt it, too. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:23:40 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 37 Message-ID: <32E3FE7C.404A@concentric.net> References: <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <4msyuOu00iV0M52s5o@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50195.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53863 comp.sys.mac.system:192722 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180676 comp.sys.next.programmer:21770 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 CLI utils vs. > objects (was .. by Nathan M. Urban@csugrad. > > In practice, the way I think this would happen is Unix utilities being > > rewritten one-by-one so that they depend on little libraries instead of > > integrated code, and then making those libraries object-oriented. (It > > might be better to put object wrappers around C libraries so that you > > can still access their APIs from C or some non-OOP language if you > > want.) During the long conversion process, there would still be no > > problem with writing apps which call programs via object wrappers using > > the system() call. > > > > Comments? Do other Unix hackers think this is the way Unix should > > evolve? > > I believe it is unfeasible to write sensible API's for every conceivable > Unix utility and to replace all of the expressive power of the shell. > There are roughly 1200 executables in my path; about 100 or so are > already available as functions via the BSD 4.3 system call API, which > leaves over a thousand left. > > I have no objection to people writing a good OO API to encapsulate the > functionality currently provided by popular tools like grep and find-- I > think it's a good idea. But people seem to think that simply providing > such an API means that the /bin/grep and /bin/find utilities aren't > needed anymore, and that claim makes no sense, for reasons that I've > explained in other articles. Some people apparently are advocating _replacing_ the CLI utilities with library APIs. But I am not one of them. I want both the CLI and its commands, AND the library utility functions. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:48:37 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 86 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21771 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53868 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180680 comp.sys.mac.system:192723 In article <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > Actually, Apple should let all those people who want Unix hang. No one here is advocating that, regardless of the labels you wish to brand us with. I have said all along that Apple should continue to develop Unix compatibility, perhaps even make it better, but that the VAST majority of Mac users won't use it, and that's going to be the VAST majority of the new OS's users. If you want the Unix command-line utilities, install them. If you don't, don't. Why has this possibility whipped the Unix people into such a frenzy? It's not the Arguments include... a) Unix utils make it easier to develop But not as easy as OOPS libs with the same functionality b) Unix utils make it easier to port the applications But only to other Unixen, to NT it certainly hurts c) Unix utils make it easier to administer Only because it depends on them no, it doesn't under NT d) It allows you do run all this great Unix software Which the VAST majority of it's users don't want anyway e) > Who > cares if they buy Solaris, or Windows NT, or run linux on a cheap > Pentium? Who needs em. That's a sophomoric argument and you know it. > Apple doesn't need new markets, right? Their current markets are doing > *just fine*. They're doing just fine on their own. Selling to them home > users, schools, and artists. No, but Unix's market share isn't exactly growing by leaps and bounds either, even with all the interest in the Internet saving it. > Oh, that's right. Apple's marketshare is dwindling. Apple's > traditional markets are moving to Windows. Schools, homes, graphics > professionals. Oh yeah, and NeXT's superior technology will help a lot here. Just look at how successful it was when they sold machines running it. As every Apple owner will tell you - technology doesn't create markets. > Evidently, Apple must not be selling what people want > anymore. But Apple DOES sell Unixen now, and no one's buying them either. This is not an argument for Unix. > I think Apple should spend some time to find out exactly what > users want. *Not* current Mac users. Former Mac users. Mac users > who have left the Mac for NT, Solaris, Linux, IRIX, whatever. Total Mac ownership continues to grow, that's not an issue. The issue is that the rest of the market grows faster. > Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully > sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% > marketshare. Uhhh, what? Win has 70% of the market, Apple 6% (in new sales) and the other 25% is divided up among all the rest. Even if that's all Unix, 1% of that is only .25% of the overall market. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd like to see your explanation of this number. > If Apple can grab back the graphics professionals who are using > NT, they could probably add another .5%. If Apple can grab > webserver marketshare from WinNT, that might account for another > .5%. (This would likely be easier if Apple shipped Rhapsody > on Intel). That'd increase Mac marketshare by another 1%. And how do any of these revolve around having the Unix shell utils in their current form rather than an updated one? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:52:26 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c0nkk$r0l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21772 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53869 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180681 comp.sys.mac.system:192724 In article <5c0nkk$r0l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Of course. Direct calls are better as long as you still have a CLI you > can use. Agreed, so there should be lots and lots of shells for you to use. > I'm just saying that when you're doing a bunch of streams > processing, there isn't as much of a need to have a pure object library. But people aren't doing a lot of streams processing except in very specific areas. And even in these areas I don't think using an OOPS library is any worse, notably if it's got all the extras like published interfaces and such. > You can convert from objects to streams and back again without much > difficulty. Yeah, but WHY? > By "this" do you mean OOP wrappers around CLI programs? No, _replacing_ the code with OOP shared libs. > However, I don't think that even most OOP programmers have really > gotten into this "objectware" concept. Even under NEXTSTEP, you don't > see as many pure object libraries being distributed as you should; too > many things are still folded into applications. This needs to change. Hmmmm. Suggestions? In general, how common is it to be able to reach into application xxx under NeXT OS and play around with it's objects? Can you do this at all? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:35:16 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 112 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21773 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180682 comp.sys.mac.system:192725 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53870 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 19-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Alan Lovejoy@concentric. >>> The same could be done in C without using the system() function. But it >>> would be ugly and awkward by comparison. However, the fault lies both >>> with C and with the standard C library. >> >> I disagree strongly. I do not believe the standard C library should >> have to implement every conceivable command that is available via a >> fork()/exec() or system() call. For gossakes, people, there is >> something to be said for a manageable API instead of throwing everything >> including the kitchen sink into the "standard system library". > > Two words: code reuse. Code reuse is a principle which states that it is usually easier and better to use preexisiting code rather than reinvent the wheel by re-writing functionality that is already available. I understand what code reuse means. Do you? Apparently not, because you are arguing that we should not reuse the preexisting code available in the form of the Unix utilities, and should instead write APIs and an implementation in the C system library for all of those utilities. That is the opposite of "code reuse"! > Now, whether such utility methods should be part of the **standard library** > for the C language is a different issue than whether they should be available > in some standard Unix library. I want them somewhere. If you want to make > an issue of which library they should be in, fine. I have other things I'd > rather worry about. I don't care which library they are in either. The point is, regardless of what it's called or whether it's just one or several libraries-- there is no point at all of creating tens of thousands of system calls to replace the Unix command line utilities unless that mammoth API is available on all of the hardware/operating system combinations that you're replacing the Unix CLI utilities, otherwise programmers won't be able to depend on all of the API being available, which would make it far less useful. Besides which, why don't you try to estimate the number of developer-years such a task would require? Then divide by the number of developers Apple has available-- do you think such a project would be released in this millenium? I don't. >> Furthermore, I don't believe that a programming API is always the best >> way of invoking complex behaviors when such behaviors are more easily >> defined and described using the CLI of a shell. >> >> For example, system("/bin/rm -rf /tmp/My_Programs_Temp_Dir/*.ckp") is >> easier to do than the way you would have to scan through directory >> entries and do wildcard expansion no matter what language you used. And >> this was only a trivial example-- I could give far more involved >> examples which involve shell functionality that is not trivial at all to >> duplicate in the form of a complete, robust, and bug-free API. > > Are you trying to say that C is not always the best language to use? I would agree with statement, yes-- in fact, I consider that to be an obvious concept. There is a wide range of problem domains, and there will never be one single computer language which is better than all other computer languages for every possible problem. [ ... ] >> "Could be"? Heck, you _could_ do the same in C or any other langauge if >> that MailTool API was standardly available for that language. > > Yes. > > But writing the MailTool class will be easier in Smalltalk or Objective-C > than it would be in C or C++. And using it in a Smalltalk IDE is just as > easy as using the CLI "mail" command. Okay, I'm willing to agree with that to an extent. However, your Smalltalk IDE is not going to be able to provide the flexibility behind the shell, such as emailing all files ending in '.gif' to somebody in the way that: system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... ) ...would do. [ ... ] >> My point was that an API for the majority of external commands is not >> available. Nor would creating such API for every command be practical >> or even desirable. > > I agree is't not available. And until it is, the CLI is necessary. And > a CLI would still be a good idea after such a library was available, > because it's a programming language (and the typical GUI is not). I agree with this, too. > However, I think such a library of useful utility classes/methods is very > desirable. Sure it is. In fact, that's one of the reasons why OpenStep is pretty cool. > Code reuse: it's a good idea. Again, writing a new library which provides functionality already implemented by Unix command-line tools is the precise opposite of code reuse. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:38:22 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> <5c0lgn$r2b@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21774 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53871 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180683 comp.sys.mac.system:192726 In article <5c0lgn$r2b@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > No, not really. It would be pointless to port a Unix environment over > to NT; OpenStep doesn't need it. They only ported a few things. That's what I thought. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:57:24 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 44 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21775 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53875 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180687 comp.sys.mac.system:192730 In article , bwanga@cats.ucsc.edu (Timothy A. Seufert) wrote: > Why not? In the current MacOS, many programs send Apple events to the > Finder to do some things. Why not use functionality that's debugged and > optimized? I said read it carefully, something it appears few are willing to do. AppleScript works on PUBLISHED interfaces over top of OBJECTS. As does any other OSA compatible scripting system, MacPERL for instance. This is exactly what I have been talking about all along this thread. How could you have missed this point? > If I need to copy a file from within my program, I'd sure like to be able > to do it just by exec'ing cp. It's almost guaranteed to be better thought > out than any copy algorithm I might come up with offhand Not YOU, the Unix that it came with. Really now, is this concept so hard to understand that I have to repeat it every single day for about two WEEKS now? Read it again: I am not asking for the removal of Unix I am not asking for the removal of utilities I _am_ asking for a system in which these utilities are in the forms of OOPS shared libs with published interfaces. Come now, that's not so bad is it? If it's not, how is it that you think that I'm possibly suggesting that you'd have to rewrite cp? > I don't have to > worry about handling all the possible pathological error conditions > either, because cp will take care of that for me. Ditto, but you get an object back instead of a string that looks different from everything that you call. > I really don't see why you've got such a huge problem with having a UNIX > environment present in Rhapsody. Sigh. I'm not, nor have I ever. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.glink.net.hk!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT OS: Porting a UNIX app ? Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:01:14 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5aj8p3$rer@boursy.news.erols.com> <5amh2m$dao@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5bmpd8$9d7@spool.cs.wisc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 In article <5bmpd8$9d7@spool.cs.wisc.edu>, Dan Bongert wrote: > well, if *i'm* not mistaken, some of the early sun stations used > 68k processors, > just like NeXT did (when it was still in the hardware business). I ran a lab of them. Sun 3/50's, based around the 68030. SLOOOWWWWWW. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!usenet.logical.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-15.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: Bill Bumgarner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Emacs for OpenStep Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:53:55 -0500 Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 12 Message-ID: <32E52CE3.1A0B@friday.com> Reply-To: bbum@friday.com NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh1-port8.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) X-Priority: Normal Has anyone successfully compiled Emacs for OpenStep-- the Emacs w/the full-blown NS UI? [It requires installation of the NS 3.3 developer tools under OS 4.1-- not something I have the resources to do]. BTW: I installed the package from next-ftp.peak.org, but it just gives a bus error upon launch. thanks, b.bum #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 00:09:11 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c11f7$3po@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c0nkk$r0l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-06.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Jan 20 6:09:11 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21778 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53878 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180696 comp.sys.mac.system:192741 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In general, how common is it to be able to reach into application xxx > under NeXT OS and play around with it's objects? Can you do this at all? Depends :-) If an app includes a single statement that registers one of its objects as a distributed objects server, then a client process can access that server object and any other objects accessible via the server object. Or if an app is designed to be extensible by dynamically loading code at run-time, then this distributed objects registration statement can be included in the loaded code thus making certain of the app's objects available to clients. We use this approach to drive OPENSTEP's InterfaceBuilder as a distributed objects server even though it was never designed to operate this way :-) -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!pacbell.com!ames!purdue!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:12:48 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 55 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53882 comp.sys.mac.system:192755 comp.sys.next.programmer:21779 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180701 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> Because you need the shell and the utils in order for the operating >> system to boot in a flexible way that can be maintained by a system >> administrator. > > Great, so have a shell that calls the OOPS libs. > In fact, have lots of them. "Calls the OOPS libs" how? Are you talking about having the system boot using a precompiled executable? If so, remember that we already went through the reasoning why that's not as good as having the system boot be configurable via an interpreted shell. >> Furthermore, there are a large number of Unix server applications which >> are based off of those utilities. > > And which ones would the average Mac user want? Who cares whether the current average Mac user would want them or not, so long as the ability to run those applications has no negative implications to that Mac user besides $3 worth of disk space? Rhapsody has the potential to sell to a large number of markets that Apple has never been successful in before-- such as corporate MCCA, Internet/Intranet usage, the server market, web technology, the important areas of higher education (ie, graduate CS/IS/Math programs :-), and so forth. Basicly, Rhapsody will cover all of the areas where Unix is popular, and hopefully will also make inroads into the normal business environment which is currently dominated by Microsoft Windows. Assuming, of course, that Apple doesn't do anything _completely_ braindamaged-- which is the only description I have for the suggestion of ripping Unix out of Rhapsody. Don't you Mac advocates want Rhapsody to be used by people who are currently using other operating systems? Or would you rather have Apples' market share shrink even further? Just to satisfy the bigotry of Unix-haters? How stupid can you get? If prior experience hadn't taught me not to ask for the impossible, I would love to hear a rational explanation of why certain people would rather do _anything_ to not see, hear, or (gasp) use Unix-- including sacrificing performance, functionality, and the potential to claim small but very important areas of the computer market. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:50:41 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 23 Message-ID: <32E404D1.24FA@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50195.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21780 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53889 comp.sys.mac.system:192757 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180708 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy > wrote: > > > MailTool > > sendMessage: 'This is the contents of the message.' > > withSubject: 'My Subject' > > to: ' > One must assume the existence of an object storing much of this data > even in the Unix case. Thus the line would become something to the effect > of... > > myMessage.send; Your comment leaves me baffled. I fail to understand your point. Perhaps you could elaborate? -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:06:34 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <32E3FA7A.5DEA@exnext.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21781 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53890 comp.sys.mac.system:192758 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180709 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca > (Blake Stone) wrote: > > Yes, it's true, if there were an API function or method for every > > conceivable purpose life would be very easy. There isn't. > > So wait, they all exist in the form of CLI utils, but it's impossible to > make them in API form. > > Is it just me? Where exactly do you intend to call the API from? -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:45:39 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 60 Message-ID: <32E403A3.788@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50195.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21782 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53891 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180710 comp.sys.mac.system:192760 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy > wrote: > > > This would make it more difficult to use C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG, > > Assembly and other non-OO languages with the OS. > > You make that sounds like a bad thing. It's a bad thing if you want to attract customers who intend to use those languages, and don't want to change. Personally, I think those languages are seriosly sub-optimal in many ways and for many usages, but Apple can't afford to alienate potential customers. > But seriously, this strikes me as a problem for data-processing like > tasks only. The entire GUI is already OOPS lib based, and I don't see > anyone crying over that. Do you? OpenStep is a framework for writing GUI-based apps. If such frameworks exist for C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG or Assembly (I don't think they do in all cases), then those frameworks are not compatible with OpenStep. And a COBOL shop would be interested in porting their existing apps over to Rhapsody, which would mean porting over their existing framework(s) for doing GUI apps (if they have such). And the original question wasn't the API for OpenStep, but rather the API to the kernel and the standard UNIX utilities. Those had better be accessible to COBOL and FORTRAN, or else a large and important base of potential customers will not use Rhapsody (I wish they'd change languages, but they won't). > Although I haven't even used ObjC on the NeXT platform yet, I > understand that many (all) of the above languages already exist. Are they > all limited to creating programs that run from the CLI only? If not, it > seems this isn't much of a problem after all. Don't know. I'm not all that familiar with NextStep/OpenStep per se. > > more difficult to use OO languages whose object models were not compatible > > with the one used to implement the kernel and libraries. > > Only in their current form. Apple's got more and more code being based > on SOM, which has no such limitation. Good. > > One could perhaps use CORBA/SOM/DSOM to address such issues. But CORBA exacts > > a noticeable performance penalty. > > Well I might be missing something here, but I always believed that if > your compiler talked SOM, there was no inherent overhead. I've heard differently. But I could be wrong. I'd be happy to wrong on this pont, actually. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: 21 Jan 1997 00:26:04 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 54 Message-ID: <5c12es$3ej@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21783 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53893 comp.sys.mac.system:192763 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180715 In article <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, Nathan M. Urban wrote: >In article <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >> In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, >> Alan Lovejoy wrote: > >> >Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. > >> >I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously >> >make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... > >> Why? > >Which is better? Accessing system services via distributed message >passing, and dynamically loading and unloading object bundles into a >running process's context? Or forking and exec'ing a shell to execute >a new process, with all its associated overhead, and communicating with >stream-based I/O that needs to be parsed into data structures? I like >the former approach a lot better. I couldn't care less. Unless there were some obvious benefits to show for it. But the message I've been getting from an admittedly lukewarm following of the thread is that the people who want to change this mostly want to change it for aesthetics, or "just because". Will it make a noticeable difference in performance or flexibility? >Not that I'm advocating ripping Unix utilities out, or even saying that >you shouldn't write apps which call utilities via a system() call. >(Unlike some other people on this group...) Far from it. I love Unix >and the Unix command line. I just think it would more elegant if most >of the Unix functionality were wrappered with objects. Then the >utilities could slowly be rewritten into object libraries, so that >instead of having programs with object wrappers, you have programs Oh, I'd have no problem with that. Just as long as I can keep my system() call, I don't care how it's implemented (as long as performance doesn't suffer). system() is the easiest way I've ever seen to pass messages to the shell. Compare that with, say, writing a MacOS program that passes messages via AppleScript. Does NeXT do it any better? >Comments? Do other Unix hackers think this is the way Unix should >evolve? The big problem is something that someone else has >mentioned.. The object models of different languages do not agree. >I'd love it if everything was based on Obj-C objects, but C++ has a >tough time with them. You can use things like CORBA, but it makes ugly One thing I'm reasonably certain of is system() and the shells won't change much in any way, shape, or form until there's a universal and backwards-compatible way to pass objects around. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.tfs.net!user From: tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 18:10:14 -0600 Organization: The Wandering Powerbook... Lines: 101 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: travis.tfs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21784 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53894 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180717 comp.sys.mac.system:192765 In article <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: >If Apple wants the new OS to be a useful Unix platform >(and they should) Here is the main point where you and I part company. I don't *want* the new OS to be a 'useful Unix platform' if it comes at the expense of the Mac's ease of use. I didn't buy a Unix box; I bought a Mac. If I'd wanted to buy a Unix box, I could have plunked down less cash than I spent on my Mac and bought a cheap Intel box running linux/X. I bought a Mac because I *wanted* a Mac, not a Unix box. The *reason* I want a Mac is so that I wouldn't have to deal with the hassles of a CLI-based OS like Unix or DOS/Windows. So I wouldn't *have* to deal with /bin, /usr and /etc, commands like "ls", "mv", "chmod," and suchlike. I hate to put words in other people's mouths, but I imagine that's the same reason a lot of the Mac users in this debate bought Macs. If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without *forcing* users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need to see or use them unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't mind. But what I saw of NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that way, and the comments I've seen here suggest that it hasn't changed in this respect. >then Unix power-users need to be able >to type "make install" and have, say, Apache build and install >properly, with a minimum of tweaking. Great, for Unix power-users. But I ask: how many Unix power-users are there in relation to the Mac user base? In a thread a while back, a linux proponent clamed hundreds of thousands of linux users as an argument for Unix as a broad-based OS. My reply was, hundreds of thousands compared to how many millions upon millions of Windows users on the same hardware platform? In other words, linux makes up what percentage of the OS base on the Intel platform? 5%? Less? In fact, taking the personal computer market as a whole, Unix and variants make up what percentage of the user base? Sorry, I'm starting to ramble here. My point is: Should you complicate or burden the user experience of 95% of the user base to benefit the 5% that actually make use of the Unix power features? I think that's a mighty poor tradeoff for a general-purpose OS. >They should not have to >wade through makefiles and install scripts to fix Apple's bungled >filesystem. Let me turn the question around: Should Joe Average User have to wade through Unix arcanum just to use the computer, when he doesn't know or care what 1/4 of the things mean, let alone how to use them -- just so that the small percentage of Unix gurus can easily run install scripts? I'll say it again... the vast majority of Rhapsody users will be *current Mac users*, NOT Unix users. The OS needs to be biased towards *those* users -- who bought Macs because they are simpler and easier to use, and didn't want to learn computer arcanum. I also take issue with calling it "Apple's bungled filesystem." I agree the technical underpinnings of HFS need to be reworked, to get rid of glitches like the allocation block size hassle on large volumes. And the System Folder could use some tweaking -- the Extensions folder is getting overcrowded with a bunch of vaguely-related files, and needs to get a cleanup in the same way that System 7's folder structure cleaned up the cluttered System Folder of System 6. But with that minor caveat, I think that FROM THE USER'S STANDPOINT, the current MacOS directory structure is both more flexible and more user-friendly: All OS-related items are kept in a single folder, with clearly labeled and reasonably meaningful subfolders, and the user can arrange the rest of the disk -- applications, documents, and all -- pretty much as he pleases. >If they need to do this, they'll use Solaris, Linux, >or something else, and Apple will lose sales that they cannot >afford to lose. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'd like to know your reasoning here. Your philosophy -- keeping arcane directory names and hierarchies that are cryptic and non-intuitive for most users, for the convenience of 'Unix power-users' -- is IMHO just about diametrically opposed to the philosophy that drove the creation of the Mac, and the user philosophy underlying almost everything Apple has done with the Mac since: The user should be able to use the computer to just get things done, with a *minimum* of computer arcanum. Even if your philosophy would pull in high-end technical people who favor Unix, that's still a tiny percentage of the market -- and if it alienates Apple's original (and much larger) market in the process, that's a recipe for sending Apple down the tubes. Remember, a common complaint from Mac users has been that the system is getting *too* complex -- not that it's not complex enough. Travis Butler (The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS; tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook; ; Mac page ) ...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:35:30 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 27 Message-ID: <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:53897 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180720 comp.sys.mac.system:192767 comp.sys.next.programmer:21785 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> The only reason I can see for that is you have a vendetta against Unix and >> oppose compatibility on general principles. It sure doesn't seem >> to be for functional reasons. > > That's right, it's all illogical. And the sky is indeed green on my > planet. Happy now? No, not really. I was assuming that I had been debating someone who had a sensible rationale behind their arguments. If you were being sarcastic (I'll admit to not being sure, since your arguments to date don't make a whole lot of sense, IMHO): could you stop congratulating yourself over this latest witty remark long enough to provide the logical rationale behind your argument? -Chuck PS: And I thought the NeXT newsgroups had some strange people! Are all Mac advocates like this? How do normal Mac users put up with it? Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!192.33.12.30!jklein From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Event handling during tight loop Date: 20 Jan 97 18:08:10 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 12 Message-ID: <32e3b48a.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hampshire.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hey, I've got a tight loop in a program, and I'd like for it to be interuptable by hitting a button. Without using threads, can somebody help me with this procedure? Do I use [NXApp getNextEvent], and then find an NX_MOUSEDOWN and manually check the coordinates to see if they hit the button? -- -jon klein jklein@freon.artificial.com Caper will do it for me. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:46:14 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21787 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53901 comp.sys.mac.system:192771 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180726 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> Really, there's no point in ripping out Unix. > > Yes there _is_: > > a) easier on the programmers Removing functionality cannot _possibly_ make programming easier. You can always decide to not use some API if you don't want to, but not having an API available at all means that you will have to do more work if/when you needed that functionality. > b) more cross platform I'd question whether this is true, too. You can find versions of 'grep' for almost every computer system available today. Ditto for most other popular Unix tools: tar, diff, sh, etc, etc. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 00:38:00 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: maury@softarc.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21788 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53902 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180727 comp.sys.mac.system:192773 In Maury Markowitz wrote: > In article <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > > Really, there's no point in ripping out Unix. > > Yes there _is_: > > a) easier on the programmers > b) more cross platform Not really. If you're developing GUI apps, you can already completely ignore the Unix API and tools. Openstep offers enough OS abstraction that you should be able to do any GUI app without touching Unix _if_you_want_to_. And that should be completely cross platform. So, it's no more easier on the programmers nor more cross platform supporting to rip out the Unix tools/layer. Compared to everything else in Openstep/Mach, the unix things like /bin, etc, are rather small. Ripping them out wont get you much in the way of disk space nor anything else, and it will only cost you in functionality and flexability. Now, if you as a programmer WANT to use the Unix tools, why shouldn't you be allowed to? (just like "if you as a user WANT to use the unix CLI and tools, why shouldn't you be allowed to?") It is dubious at best to assert that someone should be FORCED to write to any API, or limited to any set of user tools, solely for religious reasons (even if the chosen tools are better.. users and programmers have the right to choose). -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:04:25 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21789 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180728 comp.sys.mac.system:192775 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53903 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> (Win-like???? Are we talking about the same Windows? You know, that >> operating system that likes to dump files everywhere on your drive? >> Windows does NOT have a mandatory Applications folder or anything like >> that.) > > How can you possibly say that after blasting me over not wanting /bin on > my drive! Because the two issues are unrelated? [ ... ] >> I don't understand why you want to scatter your applications all over >> the filesystem. > > Because it's MY file system. You don't have to like it, do what you wish. Well, if you want to scatter your applications around even though it makes your computer less functional and harder for other people to use, you can. I don't see why anyone would want to make their computer harder to use, but then, that's just my preference for thinking rationally showing through.... >> I don't know anyone who does this. Even the Mac >> people tend to put everything in the Applications folder or a >> subdirectory of it. > > Balogna, I can't think of a single Mac I've every had the pleasure of > using that had all of it's programs arranged such, and that's a large > number of Macs (in the hundreds). That's just _wrong_. No, it's not, although I am unsurprised to discover that a Mac advocate has not had exposure to large computer networks administered by an organization. For example, CMU has hundreds of Macs in the clusters with a very consistent filesystem layout. Most Mac users here like the idea, so they generally arrange their computers in similar ways to the cluster machines-- and there are well over 1000 Macs on campus here. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.dacom.co.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!ames!purdue!oitnews.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 20:15:43 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <0mt1Wzm00iV0E52z4v@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21790 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180735 comp.sys.mac.system:192778 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53906 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > I am not asking for the removal of Unix > I am not asking for the removal of utilities > I _am_ asking for a system in which these utilities are in the forms of > OOPS shared libs with published interfaces. At the risk of repeating myself: Why don't you try to estimate the number of developer-years writing OOPS shared libraries to replace the thousand-odd Unix utilities would take? Then divide by the number of developers Apple has available-- do you think such a project would be released in this millenium? I don't. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:49:58 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 172 Message-ID: <32E420C6.17B7@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc501174.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21791 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180737 comp.sys.mac.system:192781 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53907 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 19-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld > Exclusive: App.. by Alan Lovejoy@concentric. > >>> The same could be done in C without using the system() function. But it > >>> would be ugly and awkward by comparison. However, the fault lies both > >>> with C and with the standard C library. > >> > >> I disagree strongly. I do not believe the standard C library should > >> have to implement every conceivable command that is available via a > >> fork()/exec() or system() call. For gossakes, people, there is > >> something to be said for a manageable API instead of throwing everything > >> including the kitchen sink into the "standard system library". > > > > Two words: code reuse. > > Code reuse is a principle which states that it is usually easier and > better to use preexisiting code rather than reinvent the wheel by > re-writing functionality that is already available. > > I understand what code reuse means. Do you? > > Apparently not, because you are arguing that we should not reuse the > preexisting code available in the form of the Unix utilities, and should > instead write APIs and an implementation in the C system library for all > of those utilities. That is the opposite of "code reuse"! Ahem. Now whose being offensive? Here's the most offensive part: you're wrongly attributing to me a position I have never stated, and in fact disagree with: namely, that the CLI utility commands should not be used, or should be eliminated. If the code in the UNIX shell commands were refactored and abstracted into utility functions with a standard API, the universe of reusable code would be increased. (And of course, the original shell commands would still be available with the same functionality and external interfaces). I hope this is clear, and does not need any further proof. > > Now, whether such utility methods should be part of the **standard library** > > for the C language is a different issue than whether they should be available > > in some standard Unix library. I want them somewhere. If you want to make > > an issue of which library they should be in, fine. I have other things I'd > > rather worry about. > > I don't care which library they are in either. > > The point is, regardless of what it's called or whether it's just one or > several libraries-- there is no point at all of creating tens of > thousands of system calls to replace the Unix command line utilities > unless that mammoth API is available on all of the hardware/operating > system combinations that you're replacing the Unix CLI utilities, > otherwise programmers won't be able to depend on all of the API being > available, which would make it far less useful. So no OS should ever provide a library that has any function not also available on any other OS? Or just not available on any other Unix? And a technical point: a function in a library is not a system call. It's only a system call if the function actually runs as part of the kernel, in the kernel address space, with kernel permissions. And finally, I'm advocating that ALL Unixes should have this new library of functions based on the CLI utilities. If a program uses one of these functions, it becomes Unix dependent. The same is true if the program uses system() to invoke a Unix shell command. In both cases, the problem can be fixed by porting the function/command to the non-Unix OS. If you want to write an OS-independent program, you don't make OS-specific calls. So what else is new? > Besides which, why don't you try to estimate the number of > developer-years such a task would require? Then divide by the number of > developers Apple has available-- do you think such a project would be > released in this millenium? I don't. Again, you are attributing to me a position I have not stated and disagree with. I said this was an ideal goal, that should be pursued as time permits. I fully agree that Apple cannot afford to do this now, and probably should not attempt to do it alone without the help and support of the Unix community as a whole. > >> Furthermore, I don't believe that a programming API is always the best > >> way of invoking complex behaviors when such behaviors are more easily > >> defined and described using the CLI of a shell. > >> > >> For example, system("/bin/rm -rf /tmp/My_Programs_Temp_Dir/*.ckp") is > >> easier to do than the way you would have to scan through directory > >> entries and do wildcard expansion no matter what language you used. And > >> this was only a trivial example-- I could give far more involved > >> examples which involve shell functionality that is not trivial at all to > >> duplicate in the form of a complete, robust, and bug-free API. > > > > Are you trying to say that C is not always the best language to use? > > I would agree with statement, yes-- in fact, I consider that to be an > obvious concept. There is a wide range of problem domains, and there > will never be one single computer language which is better than all > other computer languages for every possible problem. Agreed. > [ ... ] > >> "Could be"? Heck, you _could_ do the same in C or any other langauge if > >> that MailTool API was standardly available for that language. > > > > Yes. > > > > But writing the MailTool class will be easier in Smalltalk or Objective-C > > than it would be in C or C++. And using it in a Smalltalk IDE is just as > > easy as using the CLI "mail" command. > > Okay, I'm willing to agree with that to an extent. However, your > Smalltalk IDE is not going to be able to provide the flexibility behind > the shell, such as emailing all files ending in '.gif' to somebody in > the way that: > > system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... ) > > ...would do. Well, Smalltalk does have the equivalent of the C system() function. And one could implement some classes and methods that could do the above almost as concisely--including the equivalent of the piping of the output of tar to the input of mail. But I'm not advocating the elimination of the shell or of the system() function, so there's nothing to argue about that I see. > [ ... ] > >> My point was that an API for the majority of external commands is not > >> available. Nor would creating such API for every command be practical > >> or even desirable. > > > > I agree is't not available. And until it is, the CLI is necessary. And > > a CLI would still be a good idea after such a library was available, > > because it's a programming language (and the typical GUI is not). > > I agree with this, too. > > > However, I think such a library of useful utility classes/methods is very > > desirable. > > Sure it is. In fact, that's one of the reasons why OpenStep is pretty cool. > > > Code reuse: it's a good idea. > > Again, writing a new library which provides functionality already > implemented by Unix command-line tools is the precise opposite of code > reuse. I'm not suggesting rewriting the shell commands from scratch. I'm suggesting taking the existing code and a) for every command, there should be an equivalent library function (this is relatively easy), and b) **some** of the C functions that are currently private to the various shell commands should be exposed for reuse by the other commands, and by application programs. This not only **reuses** the existing code, but makes it more reusable. In doing the above, one would probably want to change some of the abstracted function so that they would be more generic (less specific to the context in which they were originally written). One may also discover that various commands "reinvent the wheel." Such could be modified to call on shared utility functions, resulting in yet more reuse. How is this bad? (Other than it takes time. I say it's an ideal goal. Paying for it is another issue. Apple can't afford this for now). -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 01:33:51 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5c16dv$586@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21792 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53909 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180740 comp.sys.mac.system:192785 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >> Really, there's no point in ripping out Unix. > > Yes there _is_: > >a) easier on the programmers >b) more cross platform I don't understand this. How could it be more cross-platform by removing compatibility with one of two major platforms outside the MacOS? As for easier on the programmers, I think Be has the right idea. It's POSIX-compliant (or nearly so) for compatibility reasons, but once developers start programming the Be way, they don't want to keep using the POSIX way. Unix compatibility has nothing to do with making it easy to program. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!tribune.usask.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca!bstone From: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 21 Jan 1997 01:53:43 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5c17j7$1e44@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21793 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53910 comp.sys.mac.system:192788 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180741 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: > MAPI... MAPI... MAPI.... Everybody agrees that a standard mail API would be nice. The point is not that it wouldn't be useful the point is that THERE ISN'T ONE. MAPI is a Win32 specific API, and a poorly thought out one at that. Yes, I've written for it. I'd rather spawn a shell task to send mail than write MAPI code again. > So wait, they all exist in the form of CLI utils, but it's > impossible to make them in API form. Has anyone said it's impossible? The key points are: * They all EXIST in the form of CLI utilities * It would be POSSIBLE to write them in API form Apple has 6 months to get a developer's release out. In that time do you honestly believe they're going to design, write, test, and document an API to replace all of UNIX's command line functionality? If so, you're sorely mistaken. If so and you're in a position to make decisions about software project planning, you're actively dangerous. I would love to see a brilliant OO API for every conceivable need, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blake W. Stone bstone@dkw.com Technical Director - DKW Systems "Art may imitate life, but life http://www.dkw.com/bstone imitates TV" - Ani Difranco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!bznews.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!farrca.apple.com!user From: antispam@apple.com (Cary Farrier (farrier@apple.com)) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:55:55 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5btm97$i2m@castor.cca.rockwell.com> <5bv009$r6r@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: farrca.apple.com x-real-email-address: farrier@apple.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.8 In article <5bv009$r6r@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > As a game developer, the possibilities are exciting, and I hope this > isn't all just wishful thinking. I've been wrong before, but I > really, really hope this is one of the times I'm right. :-) We will be bringing the Apple Game Sprockets to Rhapsody. In creating the Sprockets originally we listened to developers and they told us what they would like to have in a Game SDK from us, and that is what they got. I see no reason for us to do otherwise this time around. Right now we're doing investigations into what is going to be required to bring the Sprockets to Rhapsody. If anyone would like to share their opinions with us, we'd be happy to hear it. Currently we have the following Sprockets: DrawSprocket: a full-screen graphics API. Supports multiple buffering, page flipping, blitters, direct-to-screen access, resolution & color depth changing, etc. GoggleSprocket: works together with DrawSprocket to provide device-independent stereoscopic imaging. Currently supported devices are StereoGraphics SimulEyes (LCD Glasses), Virtual i/O iGlasses (a head-mounted display), Sanyo 3DLCD (way cool, 3D with no special glasses), and anaglyph (red/blue comic book glasses). InputSprocket: device-independent input from joysticks, foot pedals, flight-sticks, etc. NetSprocket: an easy interface for creating networked games. Hides protocol details and allows players on different protocols to be in the same game. SoundSprocket: 3D sound. "Positions" a sound in 3-space around the listener. Has special effects such as doppler shift. I imagine that we will be bringing most, if not all, to Rhapsody in some form. The official Apple games website is at . The unofficial site that we (the Sprocket engineers) operate is at . There is a mailing list called mac-games-dev that you can join if you are interested in the current discussions happening among Mac games developers. On unsupported.com there is a link to the sign-up page (a web form) for the mailing list. -> Cary -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cary Farrier, aka Mr. Draw Sprocket Software Engineer, Apple Game Technology Group farrier@apple.com Visit the Apple Games Website at #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!bznews.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!farrca.apple.com!user From: antispam@apple.com (Cary Farrier (farrier@apple.com)) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 19:35:19 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5bq73r$e18$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: farrca.apple.com x-real-email-address: farrier@apple.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.8 In article <5bq73r$e18$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, dlehn@vt.edu wrote: > Is Apple going to push Sprockets for Rhapsody? Yep. We're looking into the technical aspects right now. -> Cary -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cary Farrier, aka Mr. Draw Sprocket Software Engineer, Apple Game Technology Group farrier@apple.com Visit the Apple Games Website at #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 03:15:49 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5c1cd5$nhr@duke.squonk.net> References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21796 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53925 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180777 comp.sys.mac.system:192840 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > Really, there's no point in ripping out Unix. > > Yes there _is_: > > a) easier on the programmers > b) more cross platform Wow. Those are exactly the reasons to *not* rip it out. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 03:31:31 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21797 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53945 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180807 comp.sys.mac.system:192870 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > > > Actually, Apple should let all those people who want Unix hang. > > No one here is advocating that, regardless of the labels you > wish to brand us with. I have said all along that Apple should > continue to develop Unix compatibility, perhaps even make it > better, but that the VAST majority of Mac users won't use it, > and that's going to be the VAST majority of the new OS's users. > > If you want the Unix command-line utilities, install them. > If you don't, don't. Why has this possibility whipped the Unix > people into such a frenzy? Apparently you think that everyone who does not agree with you is "whipped into a frenzy". Given the number of articles you've posted on this topic, you're more in a frenzy than anyone else. In any case, there are some (but not all) of those unix utilites which are used during system bootup, or system shutdown, or other system functions which *all* users will expect to have. I suppose they could separate out the ones they really *need*, and have an optional installation package for the rest. To me this seems like a lot of work, but maybe it isn't too bad. If they want to do this, it won't bother me much -- assuming the system still boots up of course. One thing that might help is to point out that some of this separate already exists, There are a lot of unix utilities which are in the developer package, and not the "NeXTSTEP user" package. So, maybe the current NeXTSTEP situation isn't quite as bad as you think it is, because some of the stuff is already separated into optional packages. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:08:47 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32E44F5F.6C31@exnext.com> References: <5btm97$i2m@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Lawson English wrote: > > Erik M. Buck > > said: > > >A direct to screen API does exist for NeXTstep but it is not portable for > >obvious reasons to other OpenStep/Hardware combinations. > > > > That is very strange. The Mac has always allowed direct-drawing to the > video buffer via an API that is consistent with all video hardware that > works on the Mac, regardless of who makes it. "Regardless of who makes it"??? Pfft. As if the differences between Apple Macs and PowerComputing Macs are even remotely as large as the differences between NeXT's, Intel boxes with arbitrary video cards, HP workstations, and Sparcs. Not friggin' likely. Or are you talking about monitors? -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: Re: GX versus DPS (a Trivial example) Date: 13 Jan 1997 18:16:05 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 675 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.216 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Cyberdog-AltBoundary-000510B3" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21799 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20280 --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-000510B3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [I've added comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc to the discussion] John C. Randolph said: >mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) writes: > >>In article , jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: > >>[ lots of source code of GX & DPS- snip] [code for generic GX curve shape drawing app found online at Apple's GX site] > >>First, if it's Apple source code, there's no telling how verbose it really >>is (Apple has yet to provide a nice, clean, tight piece of sample code >>ever). > >Good point. I remember the examples in Inside Macintosh from my system >6.x days. > All of the lines are useful. They do a LOT of work for you. And save an AWFUL lot of work later on... >>Second, it appears that the GXShape can be retained and used later, but >>the DPS object is hard-coded MoveTo, LineTo. This appears to be a more >>object oriented approach for GX. A more accurate comparison would be to >>create an object in DPS that you could keep around and that could draw >>itself at different rotations and such. > >Actually, if I were following the usual practice in NEXTSTEP coding, I'd have >defined a Shape class, which had orientation, color, etc. attributes, >which any View could use. (Note to non-NeXT programmers: a View in >NeXTSTEP >is an object which renders part of the contents of a window, and receives >the events that occur within that part. Views have a clipping boundary, >they have a postscript drawing context, they can draw themselves to the >screen, or to the printing machinery.) > Note to non-GX programmers: GX shape objects are objects found in the GX shape object database and referenced by the shape "pointer" returned by a GXNewShape call or moral equivalent. GX shapes contain references to 9 GX objects: type, geometry, fill, style, ink, transform, attributes, owner count, tag list. These are stored in an optimized database referenced via the GX "pointer." The transform object contains one or more references to view objects which the object is drawn into during a "DrawShape(myShape)" call. The transform object can be applied to the geometric points describing the geometry of the shape OR be used as a generic transform to translate/rotate/etc. shape without changing the internal description of the shape (allows for a poor man's undo to be implemented merely by resetting transform matrix to the 'identity' transform). Each view object has its OWN transform matrix to be applied after the shape object's transform is applied. View objects can be off-screen bitmaps, the Mac desktop, windows, or any portion of the preceding. View objects can be nested within other view objects, and each transform object for each view is applied in an inside-out manner until the final view's transform is applied, followed by the view device object's transform, which applies any device-specific modifications needed to render the view. >Incidentally, I coud have created a userpath in the DPS server, if I >wanted it to stick around. userpaths take advantage of the font-caching >system, and they're very fast. > GX shapes not only "cache" the information mentioned above, but also any calculations that are performed when drawing/pre-drawing the shape. Bit-map caching is allowed and is only part of the info stored and the GX database could be ( and no doubt has been) designed to optimally cache shape-type-specific info. There are 8 pre-defined graphical shapes: points, lines, rectangles, polygons, curves, paths, and pictures, as well as 3 text shapes: text, glyph and layout. No other types need be defined, IMHO, since a picture is a list of shapes, including other pictures. I can guarantee that GX shapes are going to be drawn as fast, if not faster, than DPS user paths due to the optimized-database nature of GX as opposed to the interpreted nature of DPS. Even if DPS contained a CPU-specific compiler that compiled the user path into a native-code code-snippet, the strategy used by GX would allow for hand-tuned optimizations for each shape-type, whereas the DPS way would not. >>Third, it also looks like the printing code is generic enough to cover all >>the GX printing - it's quite possible to have a library call that you'd >>pass a GXPicture to and that's that. > Exactly. Also consider what you are getting when you pass a "page" reference to the GX printing calls: Each GX print job includes: page count -number of pages to print. format list -list of page formats, 1 to a page. Shape list -list of pages, each of which is actually a GX picture shape. Remember that a picture shape is a list of one or more GX shapes, including other GX pictures. When GX printing starts, a user/application is allowed to select/preselect one or more print extensions. Print extensions can walk the shape list of the print job and apply GX calls to any/all GX shapes found in any/all pages (among hundres of other capabilities). For instance, you can have a printer extension that would grab every GX shape of type gxCurve on every other page and replace the curve with the Korean equivalent of "Your text goes here" along the path of the curve, color it using R =3D 25, G =3D 200, B =3D 150, and rotate the resulting curved-text by 30 degrees, skew it and apply a user-selected 3D perspective to it, before passing the print job on to the next printing extension. >>Fourth, the lines of source code is valid for some things, but the >>question is - how much native code is generated by the DPS lines. And how >>fast is each one. That's what is really important. > >I will also mention, that the example I wrote previously is using the >single-operator PS library calls, which is not the most efficient way >to do this. I could also have written my rendering code in PS, and >run it through pswrap to generate a binary object sequence. > I'll mention that the GX example app is using the optimized GX database calls and is already in code native to the CPU. Can't get any faster than that, IMHO, without writing your own custom drawing routines using a native compiler/assembler. >>Fifth, I believe one of the advantages of GX (from what I've been told) is >>that it is extensible and that DPS requires a change in the definition of >>DPS language (with a backward compatible interpreter for odl stuff) for >>additions to it. > >PS is a threaded intrepeted language. What could possibly be more >extensible? > >If I write: > >/rectpath > { > /x exch def > /y exch def > /w exch def > /h exch def > newpath > x y moveto > w 0 rlineto > 0 h rlineto > w neg 0 rlineto > closepath > } bind def > >Then rectpath works just like it had always been there. > If you want to add to or extract data from rectpath from within an Obj-C call, do you have to define your own data handlers or is generic methods that works for any path? WIth GX, if you want to extract/reset the geometry of a GXPath shape, you can do so using one of the GXSetXX/GXGetXX methods. E.G.: GXGetPaths( aShape, aPathDataPtr); or GXSet Paths( aShape, aPathDataPtr); You can also edit the data in-place using various calls. You can also convert a shape type from one type to the other: E.G., a layout shapes takes specific font and language info and a text-string and converts it into an auto-kerned, auto-ligatured, etc., text-string of the appropriate language using information found in the GX font. If you want to hand-tune these features, say by applying your own kerning, you can. If you convert the layout shape to a glyph shape, the default info specified in the GX font is used to provide you with a shape whose individual glyphs can be transformed, for things like applying the glyph shape to a path. Since a glyph shape is a standard GX shape object, any/all attributes can be modified to affect the shape-as-a-whole, allowing you to apply rotations/skews/perspectives/co= lors/transforms/composit-modes to the entire text after you've made it follow the arbitrary curve. Remember that this info is *ALWAYS* (memory allowing) stored in shape-optimized form within the GX database for optimized redrawing -and that it includes a lot more than just bitmaps and DPS-type cache info. This is a database optimized SPECIFICALLY for these kinds of records, remember? >In fact, I know of research projects where people used postscript to add >functionality to servers and device drivers, that had nothing to do with >graphics. It is a turing-complete programming language. You can write >a LISP interpreter in it if you like! > Cool. You can embed any information that you want in a user-defined tag within a GX shape object. You can specify that PostScript commands be used instead of the generic GX layout commands for rendering a specific shape. If you wanted, you could create a driver that would preprocess the tag-info to implement any old thing you wanted to, within the domain of the capabiltiies of GX drivers talking to PS drivers/non-PS printers, including passing along the PS LISP interpreter code as found in a GX shape user-tag. >-jcr > >>There are lots of things wrong with GX, but there are lots of things right >>with it.. > >>Just my two cents. > >>Mark Munz > There's nothing really wrong with GX save that Apple never supported it properly. MY two cents... -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Windows: Tumor-causing, teeth-staining, smelly, puking habit. -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-000510B3 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000510B4" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000510B4 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 12Palatino[I've added comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc to the discussion] John C. Randolph < said: >mmunz@inconnect.com (Mark Munz) writes: > >>In article <, jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: > >>[ lots of source code of GX & DPS- snip] [code for generic GX curve shape drawing app found online at Apple's GX site] > >>First, if it's Apple source code, there's no telling how verbose it really >>is (Apple has yet to provide a nice, clean, tight piece of sample code >>ever). > >Good point. I remember the examples in Inside Macintosh from my system >6.x days. > All of the lines are useful. They do a LOT of work for you. And save an AWFUL lot of work later on... >>Second, it appears that the GXShape can be retained and used later, but >>the DPS object is hard-coded MoveTo, LineTo. This appears to be a more >>object oriented approach for GX. A more accurate comparison would be to >>create an object in DPS that you could keep around and that could draw >>itself at different rotations and such. > >Actually, if I were following the usual practice in NEXTSTEP coding, I'd have >defined a Shape class, which had orientation, color, etc. attributes, >which any View could use. (Note to non-NeXT programmers: a View in >NeXTSTEP >is an object which renders part of the contents of a window, and receives >the events that occur within that part. Views have a clipping boundary, >they have a postscript drawing context, they can draw themselves to the >screen, or to the printing machinery.) > Note to non-GX programmers: GX shape objects are objects found in the GX shape object database and referenced by the shape "pointer" returned by a GXNewShape call or moral equivalent. GX shapes contain references to 9 GX objects: type, geometry, fill, style, ink, transform, attributes, owner count, tag list. These are stored in an optimized database referenced via the GX "pointer." The transform object contains one or more references to view objects which the object is drawn into during a "DrawShape(myShape)" call. The transform object can be applied to the geometric points describing the geometry of the shape OR be used as a generic transform to translate/rotate/etc. shape without changing the internal description of the shape (allows for a poor man's undo to be implemented merely by resetting transform matrix to the 'identity' transform). Each view object has its OWN transform matrix to be applied after the shape object's transform is applied. View objects can be off-screen bitmaps, the Mac desktop, windows, or any portion of the preceding. View objects can be nested within other view objects, and each transform object for each view is applied in an inside-out manner until the final view's transform is applied, followed by the view device object's transform, which applies any device-specific modifications needed to render the view. >Incidentally, I coud have created a userpath in the DPS server, if I >wanted it to stick around. userpaths take advantage of the font-caching >system, and they're very fast. > GX shapes not only "cache" the information mentioned above, but also any calculations that are performed when drawing/pre-drawing the shape. Bit-map caching is allowed and is only part of the info stored and the GX database could be ( and no doubt has been) designed to optimally cache shape-type-specific info. There are 8 pre-defined graphical shapes: points, lines, rectangles, polygons, curves, paths, and pictures, as well as 3 text shapes: text, glyph and layout. No other types need be defined, IMHO, since a picture is a list of shapes, including other pictures. I can guarantee that GX shapes are going to be drawn as fast, if not faster, than DPS user paths due to the optimized-database nature of GX as opposed to the interpreted nature of DPS. Even if DPS contained a CPU-specific compiler that compiled the user path into a native-code code-snippet, the strategy used by GX would allow for hand-tuned optimizations for each shape-type, whereas the DPS way would not. >>Third, it also looks like the printing code is generic enough to cover all >>the GX printing - it's quite possible to have a library call that you'd >>pass a GXPicture to and that's that. > Exactly. Also consider what you are getting when you pass a "page" reference to the GX printing calls: Each GX print job includes: page count -number of pages to print. format list -list of page formats, 1 to a page. Shape list -list of pages, each of which is actually a GX picture shape. Remember that a picture shape is a list of one or more GX shapes, including other GX pictures. When GX printing starts, a user/application is allowed to select/preselect one or more print extensions. Print extensions can walk the shape list of the print job and apply GX calls to any/all GX shapes found in any/all pages (among hundres of other capabilities). For instance, you can have a printer extension that would grab every GX shape of type gxCurve on every other page and replace the curve with the Korean equivalent of "Your text goes here" along the path of the curve, color it using R =3D 25, G =3D 200, B =3D 150, and rotate the resulting curved-text by 30 degrees, skew it and apply a user-selected 3D perspective to it, before passing the print job on to the next printing extension. >>Fourth, the lines of source code is valid for some things, but the >>question is - how much native code is generated by the DPS lines. And how >>fast is each one. That's what is really important. > >I will also mention, that the example I wrote previously is using the >single-operator PS library calls, which is not the most efficient way >to do this. I could also have written my rendering code in PS, and >run it through pswrap to generate a binary object sequence. > I'll mention that the GX example app is using the optimized GX database calls and is already in code native to the CPU. Can't get any faster than that, IMHO, without writing your own custom drawing routines using a native compiler/assembler. >>Fifth, I believe one of the advantages of GX (from what I've been told) is >>that it is extensible and that DPS requires a change in the definition of >>DPS language (with a backward compatible interpreter for odl stuff) for >>additions to it. > >PS is a threaded intrepeted language. What could possibly be more >extensible? > >If I write: > >/rectpath > { > /x exch def > /y exch def > /w exch def > /h exch def > newpath > x y moveto > w 0 rlineto > 0 h rlineto > w neg 0 rlineto > closepath > } bind def > >Then rectpath works just like it had always been there. > If you want to add to or extract data from rectpath from within an Obj-C call, do you have to define your own data handlers or is generic methods that works for any path? WIth GX, if you want to extract/reset the geometry of a GXPath shape, you can do so using one of the GXSetXX/GXGetXX methods. E.G.: GXGetPaths( aShape, aPathDataPtr); or GXSet Paths( aShape, aPathDataPtr); You can also edit the data in-place using various calls. You can also convert a shape type from one type to the other: E.G., a layout shapes takes specific font and language info and a text-string and converts it into an auto-kerned, auto-ligatured, etc., text-string of the appropriate language using information found in the GX font. If you want to hand-tune these features, say by applying your own kerning, you can. If you convert the layout shape to a glyph shape, the default info specified in the GX font is used to provide you with a shape whose individual glyphs can be transformed, for things like applying the glyph shape to a path. Since a glyph shape is a standard GX shape object, any/all attributes can be modified to affect the shape-as-a-whole, allowing you to apply rotations/skews/perspectives/co= lors/transforms/composit-modes to the entire text after you've made it follow the arbitrary curve. Remember that this info is *ALWAYS* (memory allowing) stored in shape-optimized form within the GX database for optimized redrawing -and that it includes a lot more than just bitmaps and DPS-type cache info. This is a database optimized SPECIFICALLY for these kinds of records, remember? >In fact, I know of research projects where people used postscript to add >functionality to servers and device drivers, that had nothing to do with >graphics. It is a turing-complete programming language. You can write >a LISP interpreter in it if you like! > Cool. You can embed any information that you want in a user-defined tag within a GX shape object. You can specify that PostScript commands be used instead of the generic GX layout commands for rendering a specific shape. If you wanted, you could create a driver that would preprocess the tag-info to implement any old thing you wanted to, within the domain of the capabiltiies of GX drivers talking to PS drivers/non-PS printers, including passing along the PS LISP interpreter code as found in a GX shape user-tag. >-jcr > >>There are lots of things wrong with GX, but there are lots of things right >>with it.. > >>Just my two cents. > >>Mark Munz 12Palatino> There's nothing really wrong with GX save that Apple never supported it properly. MY two cents... -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- Windows: Tumor-causing, teeth-staining, smelly, puking habit. -----------------------------------------------------------------------= -- --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-000510B4-- --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-000510B3-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 06:48:45 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 190 Message-ID: <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21800 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53958 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180827 comp.sys.mac.system:192898 On 01/20/97, William Raphael Hix wrote: >Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: >: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: >: > Example: does the existence of tar, a reasonably able backup >: > utility with a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin >: > or Dantz who make backup software more or less eager to port to >: > Rhapsody? I think less likely, because the number of potential >: > buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the existence of tar and freeware >: > extensions. >: >: I don't think it effects them one bit. >: >: For one, most Mac users are used to Stuffit. They are not used to >: opening a unix window, and then figuring out all the options on >: tar. They will be much more likely to spend another $30 for a new >: version of Stuffit than bothering with tar. >: >: For two, Stuffit includes a very nice user interface. It is a >: "finder interface" to your compressed archive. Tar, by itself, is >: relatively crude. A front-end to tar might be competition to >: Stuffit, but tar by itself simply can not compete. >: >: For three, *I* don't use tar as a backup utility, and I'm more >: familar with tar than the average mac user is. I would very much >: prefer to have something like "Diskfit" for my NeXTSTEP system, >: and I've been using NeXTSTEP for years. > >Then you are essentially arguing that tar is of little use? (jumping ahead, you mention that this is too fixated on tar... the comments I've kept that in mind, and I think that these comments are probably safe enough in a general sense to be applied more widely.) Sounds to me that what he's saying is that its too clumsy for most casual users to learn, and that there is a market for a front end to it. Tar is of a great use to many people out there, isn't that obvious since almost everyone is adding its functionality and there are free versions of it available? >If this is >so, then why bother including it on everyone's disk? Why? Well, lets see.. Its a universally available tool on ALL machines, without depending on owning a third party product. This means that an Apple user who downloads something from the Net has a tool to start from. Same can be said for compress, ftp, telnet, etc... >But I think this >has become too fixated on tar. These are the issues that Apple faces with >respect to such Unix utilities. There will be developer pressure on Apple >to not duplicate the functions of 3rd party applications. There was an invited speaker who stood up at a WWDC conference and said that (and I'm paraphrasing here) "companies should stay out of the way and not make products they KNOW Apple is going to make. They should also not expect apple to buy their technology from them if that happens." Now, you need to take this with a grain of salt, since it was JLG that said this, and his kabillion dollar BE deal is obviously at clear odds with this statement. >Even before the >new OS, Apple's usurpation of functionality was one of the main complaints >from developers. Apple is particularly beholden to their developers >now since without developer support, Rhapsody is OpenStep/PPC. > >In general, there are 2 extreme cases. Case #1, Unix utility A does >everything (perhaps with a freeware wrapper) and so is a replacement for >Mac Software B. In this case the Mac software developer never ports >the application. There will be pressure on Apple to drop such functions. > Then they need to "value add" to their products. Even if they drop it from the OS CD, anyone can compile it for it, and still give it away. If they pressure Apple to drop basic functionality like this, then Apple should tell them to take a leap. >Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac application B. >In this case, what is the point of including this utility in the OS? Because its required by those who don't have the commercial product. Hell, better drop Edit.app from the release, its a RTF text editor, and the word processor people are going to scream. >Unix >compatibility comes the reply. Well, how important is Unix compatibility? Very. >It's clear from this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. But how >much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple is pitching Rhapsody >to? Oh, you mean like those piddly companies that have fortune 500 status? You know, those Enterprise installations Apple HAS to get to get back into the corporate market? Do you ever get a tar file that you want to uncompress over the net? Is Apple going to prohibit any freeware that might infringe on the little developer applications? > Would they rather have the system take up less space or have Unix >compatibility 99% of them would never use. The feelings of NeXT users >(none of whom have compatible hardware) are secondary to the 10-100 times >larger Mac community. Well, scr*w you too. Apple has said today that OpenStep for other platforms will continue to live, so suddenly alot more people become relevant due to hardware compatibility. And again, what if an Enterprise application running on OpenStep/Solaris or OpenStep/Intel require these tools? Someone needs a new machine, Apple doesn't ship with the essential tools, so we better just buy another Intel box with OpenStep/Intel on it. > >What about find? Should Apple leave the Unix find when we know they're >going to include their new V-Twin search engine and Find File. Well, the >V-Twin certainly replaces find if you are a GUI user, but what about CLI and >scripts? Will Apple leave find for the 1% of users who might want to >use their Mac like a Unix box? > Do you have ANY proof of your 1% number? Are you just grabbing at air? OK.. Apple removes a whole boatload of unix tools.... which means that those users who want to do things like run off-the-net stuff like Apache, INN, sendmail, all those other great Unix server programs are going to have to go through a hoop routine to install it? Will Apple prohibit compiling and distribution of find then? Who gets hurt by Apple including it? And what if someone writes a really cool freeware utility that uses find... do they have to supply it? >Naturally, every real example is somewhere in between, but both of the >extreme cases argue against strong Unix compatibility. Yeah, compatibility is bad. :-| CyberDog is bad. It hurts Eudora and other mail companies, better kill it now. sendmail, that might piss off a mail-gateway company ppp - hell, someone might want to make a commercial version ftp, sed, awk, perl, - all useful, but might tread on someone's toes, gotta kill them. ftpd, httpd, Apache, INN - all server products that will compete with other products. They're free here, gotta kill them too. Where do you stop? >It will be >interesting to see how Apple resolves this. Perhaps some add-on Unix >compatibility, even from a 3rd party. And lets not forget it will be free. >Apple will need to compromise >to fit Rhapsody to the needs of Mac users, and I fear that such >compromises will come at the cost of NeXT users expectations. > If Apple is at all serious about Cross-compatibility and the Enterprise, then they'd be stupid to remove unix utils (and all they'd be doing is making them harder to get, lets face it, they all supply source on the net). -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 03:10:38 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5c1c3e$nhr@duke.squonk.net> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21801 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53960 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180829 comp.sys.mac.system:192905 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > > > I just don't understand you, Maury. You complain about HP > > making gratuitous changes in the file system that does nothing > > but make it difficult to work in a multivendor Unix environment, > > and then advocate Apple making gratuitous changes in the > > filesystem that does nothing but make it difficult to work in > > a multivendor Unix environment. > > Ahhhh, close except for that last line there. In fact, that's > the "non important part to be added later". It's only the > NeXT-ites that give two hoots about this, the VAST majority of > the users of the resulting OS will be Mac users and they simply > don't care about the later. I think Mac users will care if the operating system is not delivered. It's not so much that I care about the unix underpinnings of the current NeXTSTEP product, however I do think those underpinnings provide many useful abilities. If Apple does not use Unix to do those things, then they will have more work to do (one way or another). I do think the abilities are important, and I do not think it would be brilliant of Apple to start reinventing a lot of wheels simply so they can say "Well, we kept Unix off our hardware!". Too much work, for too little payback. I'm also of the opinion that if they *do* keep the unix underpinnings, then they should pick a layout for Unix which already exists, instead of dreaming up a new one. Note that they do not have to stick with NeXT's BSD-style layer to do this, they could also use a layout that mimics Solaris or AIX. The important point is that the unix layer should look a lot like something which already exists. The reason for this, to me, is that there are many packages with nice little configure scripts which will break if Apple dreams up some new layout for unix. I see this as creating work for everyone, including Apple, and for no good reason. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 03:14:47 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5c1cb7$nhr@duke.squonk.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21802 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53961 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180830 comp.sys.mac.system:192906 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > What "standard system library"? Who's arguing for that? No one > that I can see. As far as I can tell, we're all arguing for a > bunch of small shared libs. Uh, and how is that different from a standard system library? The fact that you'll break up one "standard system library" into many "small" shared libs? Well, unix already has several standard libs, and it's the collection which is considered the "standard system library". It is not a single file. And where would you put these small, shared libs? If you're talking MacOS, you will be forced to put them in the extensions folder. If we're talking Unix, you'll be forced to put them in /usr/lib. The difference does not seem all that profound to me. (note that if you install the "small libs" in the separate folders of various applications, then those libs are no longer "shared"...) --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 03:26:11 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5c1d0j$nhr@duke.squonk.net> References: <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> <5c0lgn$r2b@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21803 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53962 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180831 comp.sys.mac.system:192907 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5c0lgn$r2b@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > > No, not really. It would be pointless to port a Unix environment > > over to NT; OpenStep doesn't need it. They only ported a few > > things. > > That's what I thought. Of course, they don't need it with WindowsNT because WindowsNT already has those facilities implemented. If Apple is going to throw out the Unix layer, then they will have to recreate all of it. They can't fall back to "the native OS", because they are the ones who have to provide the native OS. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 03:03:29 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5c1bm1$nhr@duke.squonk.net> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21804 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53963 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180835 comp.sys.mac.system:192909 raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: > : For three, *I* don't use tar as a backup utility, and I'm more > : familar with tar than the average mac user is. I would very much > : prefer to have something like "Diskfit" for my NeXTSTEP system, > : and I've been using NeXTSTEP for years. > > Then you are essentially arguing that tar is of little use? If > this is so, then why bother including it on everyone's disk? It is of little use, to me, as a backup utility. It is of great use, to me, for downloading (or uploading) distributions of various packages. I don't think it would replace stuffit for Mac-ish things, but at the same time Stuffit won't replace tar for unixy packages (not unless Aladdin makes a version of stuffit for all unix platforms, which I have actually asked them to do at times). > But I think this has become too fixated on tar. These are the > issues that Apple faces with respect to such Unix utilities. > There will be developer pressure on Apple to not duplicate the > functions of 3rd party applications. My guess is that you'll get the same response (from me, anyway :-) for any other unix utility that you care to name. The utilities are useful (and many are used by the system itself -- which means it needs to be part of the distribution), but they are not what Mac users would want. If you chose something other than tar, it's going to boil down to the same issues. > Even before the new OS, Apple's usurpation of functionality was > one of the main complaints from developers. I would say this is less of a problem with these unix utilities than with full-blown GUI applications. Apple can use the unix utilities for it's own (system) purposes, but third-party developers can do the "real Mac-way" versions. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.Stanford.EDU!usenet From: stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: dynamic_cast in C++ Date: 21 Jan 1997 08:01:27 GMT Organization: Stanford University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5c1t4n$sdd@nntp.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: nightowl.stanford.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Hello, C++ supposedly supports dynamic casting, like Accord *pAccord = dynamic_cast(item); Well, I don't seem to be able to get it to work. I looked in the g++ sources, and it is there, but when I use the above line, it complains about the function "dynamic_cast" not being defined. What do? Thanks, - Stan --- Nature photography: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~stanj NeXTmail and MIME: stanj@cs.stanford.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 13 Jan 97 21:41:08 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-14-20.access.one.net In-reply-to: gmares@cyberramp.net's message of Mon, 13 Jan 1997 00:24:54 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21806 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53965 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180838 comp.sys.mac.system:192912 In article , gmares@cyberramp.net (Gabe Mares) writes: I got used to proportional thumbs with GS/OS, and missed them when I moved to a Mac. After using a Mac for years, I find the proportional thumbs disconcerting in WinNT 4.0. I guess it's what you're used to. FWIW, I believe I read in "Tog on Interface" that Apple's user testing showed that proportional thumbs confused many users, which would explain why that feature didn't make it over to the Macintosh. OTOH, I have seldom seen anything more confusing than the old Windows non-proportional scrollbars and how they always were telling me "Hey, dummy, more text at the bottom", and when you scrolled down there ... nothing! [Related: Whoever thought to add that wonderful extra page or so of blank at the end of things? So helpful.] In any case, I think you're right, proportional scrollbars are entirely an experience issue. I can't imagine a means of honestly measuring the difference between proportional and non-proportional for inexperienced users. Either would seem confusing :-). Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.corp.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 04:29:38 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 68 Message-ID: <5c1gni$nhr@duke.squonk.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21807 comp.sys.next.advocacy:53970 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180844 comp.sys.mac.system:192915 tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: > In article <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com>, > "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: > > directory structure would cause problems for porting standard Unix > utilities> > > > If Apple wants the new OS to be a useful Unix platform > > (and they should) > > Here is the main point where you and I part company. I don't > *want* the new OS to be a 'useful Unix platform' if it comes > at the expense of the Mac's ease of use. a) some of us just want it to be a useful platform, and we see Unix as providing some very useful features. It's not unix per se that we want, it's the features. Apple could provide all those features without unix, but (I feel) that would be a major project. One that they do not have the time to tackle right now. b) certainly NeXTSTEP users do not want Unix at the expense of ease-of-use. In some of the early interviews with Ellen Hancock, she said something like "NeXTSTEP has done a good job of hiding Unix from the user. However, there are still some rough spots, and we intend to complete the job". I, for one, think that's a very good approach. I do not want to force anyone to learn a unix shell in order to do their work. At the same time, I think it'd be stupid to hobble the system as a whole by removing Unix, and I think it would be too large of a project to talk about rewriting that functionality in some other form. > The *reason* I want a Mac is so that I wouldn't have to deal with > the hassles of a CLI-based OS like Unix or DOS/Windows. So I > wouldn't *have* to deal with /bin, /usr and /etc, commands like > "ls", "mv", "chmod," and suchlike. I hate to put words in other > people's mouths, but I imagine that's the same reason a lot of > the Mac users in this debate bought Macs. The thing to realize is that most NeXTSTEP users do not use the CLI at all. I know of at least a few NeXTSTEP users who have run NeXTstations for at least four years now, and they still don't know any unix. None at all. I would expect that the user interface will only get better in Rhapsody, and that no owner of a personal system will ever have to learn any Unix. At the same time, there are other situations where Unix will come in very handy. These are in server configurations, or in multi-user configurations. (Note: I run some Mac labs here at RPI, and there are several features of Unix that I'd *really* like to have on those machines). > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without > *forcing* users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need > to see or use them unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't > mind. But what I saw of NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that > way, and the comments I've seen here suggest that it hasn't > changed in this respect. Hmm. Odd. What kind of things were you doing that you need to have terminal windows open? --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!swidir.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!news.unige.ch!dami From: dami@cui.unige.ch (Laurent Dami) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone know about power management? Date: 21 Jan 1997 08:47:56 GMT Organization: University of Geneva - CUI Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5c1vrs$ktg@uni2f.unige.ch> References: <5c078g$325i@news.doit.wisc.edu> <5c0p35$hak@news.us.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cuisuna.unige.ch In article <5c0p35$hak@news.us.net>, Bill Chin wrote: >giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) wrote: >>It seems surprising that *no one* else has even looked into this. Please, if >>you have any insights or information about the way the mach kernel in 3.3 and >>4.x deals with power management, I would appreciate the info. I would like >>to try to write a driver to improve the performance, as well as providing >>working suspend/resume, particularly for Toshiba Tecras. > >I'm not surprised no one has responded. Not many people run NS/OS on laptops, >and those that do probably disable APM to get it to work right. For info: I'm using NS on a NEC Versa P laptop, and APM works just fine. I just suspend/resume very often, and never met any problem. But I know nothing about the kernel internals, sorry. ========================================================================= Laurent DAMI | tel: +41 (22) 705 76 63 Centre Universitaire d'Informatique | secr: +41 (22) 705 77 70 24, rue General-Dufour | fax: +41 (22) 705 77 80 1211 Geneve 4 | email: dami@cui.unige.ch SWITZERLAND | WWW: http://cuiwww.unige.ch/~dami ========================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: 21 Jan 1997 05:19:18 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 13 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c1jkm$5di@usenet.rpi.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu antispam@apple.com (Cary Farrier (farrier@apple.com)) writes: > dlehn@vt.edu wrote: > > > Is Apple going to push Sprockets for Rhapsody? > > Yep. We're looking into the technical aspects right now. Ah, I'm glad to hear this! -- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!odin.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!news.netset.com!tbrown From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 22:07:53 -0500 Organization: NetSet Internet Services -- Columbus, Ohio Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net> <32E403A3.788@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp137.dialup.cmh.netset.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21810 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54000 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180884 comp.sys.mac.system:192970 In article <32E403A3.788@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: >OpenStep is a framework for writing GUI-based apps. If such frameworks exist >for C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG or Assembly (I don't think they do in all >cases), then those frameworks are not compatible with OpenStep. And a COBOL >shop would be interested in porting their existing apps over to Rhapsody, which >would mean porting over their existing framework(s) for doing GUI apps (if they >have such). Just because you've got a application in COBOL doesn't mean that when you port the app to another platform you want to write the entire GUI code in COBOL (even if it was originally written so for the other platform). What you want to do is provide a seemless jump from the new GUI code to the old COBOL code that is the core of the program. The new GUI code should be coded in something that best suits the job (which is prolly not COBOL). OpenStep seems to do well in this regard, as it's easy to craft the GUI code. There were several stories of Sci Computing Fortran programs being ported to NeXTSTEP, getting a GUI in the processs. The old event code was ripped out, and called from Obj-C. Result: a much better interface and few changes to old code. I could see some obtuse programs making the port harder, in that case you're prolly going to be fighting the port no matter what the target platform. -- Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!worldnet.att.net!news.alt.net!newspost1.alt.net!ehutch From: ehutch@hypnos.norden1.com (E. Hutchinson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,misc.jobs.offered,ill.jobs,mi.jobs Subject: Career Position:NEXTSTEP/Obj C/ILL Date: 21 Jan 1997 14:27:56 GMT Organization: Norden 1 Communications Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5c2jpc$b6o@tofu.alt.net> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21811 misc.jobs.offered:1848221 Programmer/analyst/developer NEXTSTEP--------------------Commercial experience Objective C-----------------Commercial experience EOF-------------------------A plus Career Position-------------Benefits & bonus Area------------------------Greater Chicago area To Be Considered------------Send or mail resume. -- ehutch@norden1.com (419) 893-6367 [fax] Omni Search (419) 893-6334 [voice] 1310 Craig Maumee, Ohio 43537 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 97 09:05:58 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-11-21.access.one.net In-reply-to: maury@softarc.com's message of Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:48:37 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21812 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54018 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180915 comp.sys.mac.system:192996 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes: Arguments include... a) Unix utils make it easier to develop But not as easy as OOPS libs with the same functionality I'm getting _somewhat_ tired of this particular point, and I've not seen anyone really rebutt it, so ... The choice is _not_ "The standard Unix utilities" vs "OOPS libs with the same functionality". Why not? 1) The Unix tools were designed as one-shot packages. For the most part, a particular tool (say, find(1)), is not designed as a generalized library with a command-line wrapper. Instead, it is designed so that the program executes once. Loosely put, the programs are not reentrant, and thus in most cases cannot be easily wrapped into a library. 2) The Unix tools are (quite frankly) not nearly well enough rounded to be made into a generalized library. If you're willing to have a library who's _only_ operation is to search a file for a regular expression and spit out a stream of matches, that's great. Unfortunately, I suspect that most people will want to interact with the execution more. For instance, your program may want to modify how many matches, it interactively receive lines and pass/fail them based on something other than a regex. 3) The Unix tools (or, more precisely, the _GNU_ Unix tools) attempt to be portable. This is a means of allowing their potential audience to be larger than any one platform, as most platforms don't have enough userbase to warrant extensive development. The first two points mean that a generalized, well-designed set of OOP libraries implementing the same set of functionality as a particular set of Unix command-line utilities will take 2-4 times the effort to develop. My experience indicates that that is a _conservative_ estimate. The effort required is likely to be open-ended. The third point means that we only have a small subset of the possible programmers who would have any incentive to work on the problem. Since these OOP libraries won't as easily portable outside of MythOS, anyone not on that platform won't have incentive to work on them. So, we have perhaps 10% of the man-hours applied to a problem that 3x harder than it needs to be. It's _very_ unlikely that this is going to happen. Last point? The water is very muddied, here. In my work I _very_ seldom use Unix utilities from C code. It just doesn't make sense, as the impedance mismatch is too great. I make _extensive_ use of Unix utilities while developing code, though, and I often write scripts which tie together Unix utilities (including other scripts) into a relatively seemless whole. In some sense Unix itself is one of my tools. Each specific operation I've done in Unix probably would be slicker if it had a GUI counterpart. On the other hand, any package which had that many functions would be impossible to understand (if you can't _find_ the operation, it might as well not exist), and I doubt there's any incentive to write a GUI version of various essentially one-shot operations, so that GUI version will never be written in any case. [In practice: A GUI grep-like program would be useful to many people. A GUI program to find all *.h files which contain the phrase "Public Interface" and then use their path relative to a given absolute as a basis to create a symlink in another directory is probably _not_ going to happen. Partially, this is because such a program would require so much flexibility that it will probably require a scripting language, at which point it might as well be a shell script, or even a "lambda" version (a single command-line tied together with pipes).] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!bznews.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!NewsWatcher!user From: ENGELHART.M@applelink.apple.com (Michael Engelhart) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 21 Jan 1997 15:07:02 GMT Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 8 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 17.128.202.195 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11088 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3627 comp.sys.next.programmer:21813 In article , acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) wrote: > What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the > Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on > earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? Same reason the universe at large bought into Microsoft Windows... :-) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!bznews.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!NewsWatcher!user From: ENGELHART.M@applelink.apple.com (Michael Engelhart) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 21 Jan 1997 15:13:42 GMT Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 17.128.202.195 > people buy what they're told to buy. Even programmers (who should be > smarter than average) follow the crowd. Most don't want to stand up and > shout about making things better. i think you're a little mislead...programmers aren't following the crowd, they're following the money trail that leads to the crowd... Programming is still a way to make money for most people so unless you've found a way to make a living using (until now) alternative OSes like NeXT, you've most likely moved on to Windows or some other crowd based technology... Mike Engelhart #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 15:26:12 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5c2n6k$1l8@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21815 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54030 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180932 comp.sys.mac.system:193024 On 01/21/97, Travis Butler wrote: > The *reason* I want a Mac is so that I wouldn't have to deal with the > hassles of a CLI-based OS like Unix or DOS/Windows. So I wouldn't *have* to > deal with /bin, /usr and /etc, commands like "ls", "mv", "chmod," and > suchlike. I hate to put words in other people's mouths, but I imagine > that's the same reason a lot of the Mac users in this debate bought Macs. > This is exactly why many people use NEXTSTEP. > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without *forcing* > users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need to see or use them > unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't mind. But what I saw of > NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that way, and the comments I've seen > here suggest that it hasn't changed in this respect. > I know of many NEXTSTEP users who don't know anything about Unix, and never will. They tend not to post here, though. What exactly was it about your encounter that gave you the idea that you *needed* a CLI. When was this? Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!swrinde!news-relay.us.dell.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:51:08 -0600 From: dtapp@dilan.com Subject: NSCalendarDate woes Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <853860675.19197@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Jan 21 15:47:00 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 198.252.165.163 () X-Http-User-Agent: OmniWeb/2.0.1 OWF/1.0 X-Authenticated-Sender: dtapp@dilan.com Lines: 60 Hello, all. I'm trying to use the NSDate and NSCalendarDate classes to set up some WHERE clauses for an SQL server. I'm having troubles with the "all events that happened yesterday" and "all events since midnight" options. I'm not that experienced with these two classes, and I'm getting two different types of bad results. First, this "yesterday" code throws an exception. (Note the code is a little more verbose than necessary; due to my debugging efforts: #define RIGHT_NOW [[ NSDate date ] \ dateWithCalendarFormat:@"%Y%m%d%H%M%S" timeZone: nil] . . . if ( [ dateType isEqual: @"yesterday" ] ) { NSCalendarDate *now = RIGHT_NOW, *yesterday = nil; NSString *yesterdayString = nil; yesterday = [ now addYear: 0 month: 0 day: -1 hour: 0 minute: 0 second: 0 ]; yesterdayString = [ yesterday descriptionWithCalendarFormat: @"%Y%m%d" ]; return [ NSString stringWithFormat: @"events.start >= '%@000000' and " @"events.stop <= '%@235959'", yesterdayString, yesterdayString ]; } This second snippet of code works ok, but returns inconsistent results. If I run it at about 9:00 in the evening, it tries to select tomorrow's records! (I have the correct time zone preference set.) if ( [ dateType isEqual: @"since midnight" ] ) { return [ NSString stringWithFormat: @"events.start >= '%@000000'", [ RIGHT_NOW descriptionWithCalendarFormat: @"%Y%m%d" ]]; } Regards, - Dan -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 15:46:30 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21817 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54034 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180937 comp.sys.mac.system:193030 In article <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote among other things: > In article <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote among other thing: > > Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac application B. > > In this case, what is the point of including this utility in the OS? Unix > > compatibility comes the reply. Well, how important is Unix compatibility? > > It's clear from this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. But how > > much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple is pitching Rhapsody > > to? Would they rather have the system take up less space or have Unix > > compatibility 99% of them would never use. The feelings of NeXT users > > (none of whom have compatible hardware) are secondary to the 10-100 times > > larger Mac community. Er, as you know, our installer programs allow 'full installs' and 'partial installs' and 'custom installs'. Why wouldn't the Unix programs- all of the hairy little buggers! be part of a really full install? Might even still fit on one CD- and if not, never mind 'HD being cheap', CD-Rom substrates in bulk are _really_ cheap. > Why not? All these Unix utilities don't take up much space. Crippling > a Unix system isn't worth the effort. The _only_ consideration is > whether the existence of these utilities will hurt developers with > similar products, and I don't think that this is a serious problem. I > doubt 'find' is going to replace V-Twin for desktop use, but there are > plenty of sysadmins and shell scripts who use it. I agree with Nathan. Completely. Because we do have good installers, and this is an ideal situation for a good installer. Preloads would be a more interesting situation and I daresay if the utilities are truly auxiliary they would not be included on mass-market preloads. But you could probably download them as desired. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:57:14 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54039 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180941 comp.sys.mac.system:193037 comp.sys.next.programmer:21818 In article <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > Considering that Apple can't survive by just pleasing current > Mac users, this isn't a very good argument. Yes, but stating that offering a Unix will expand market share is just as bad an argument. Apple _has_ offered Unix to customers for many years now, and it's been pretty much glued to the shelves. Unix alone will not expand Apple's market share whatsoever. > Apple cannot gain > marketshare by catering to the tastes of a rapidly shrinking > user base. A solid OS alone, one that's fast and powerful, has the ability to indeed stop that erosion, perhaps reverse it. > They have to start working on people who aren't > Mac users. So which market do they go after? The PC market doesn't want Unix any more than the Mac market does. > To do that, Apple has to figure out why they're > not Mac users. For some significant population, this is going > to be because they need Unix. Apple cannot afford to ignore > this market. I agree, and they already offer multiple solutions into this market, all of them rarely used. The "opposite", MAE, does indeed seem to be doing OK though. > BTW, POSIX support has little to do with Unix utilities. I know, but my point is that such support has been offered by other OS's as well, and has been pretty much ignored. If you want Unix, you buy Unix. If you don't, you don't. That's pretty much it. Offering Unix as a "feature" will no more expand Apple's market share now than in the past. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 15:55:08 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21819 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180944 comp.sys.mac.system:193042 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54042 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Again, writing a new library which provides functionality already > implemented by Unix command-line tools is the precise opposite of code > reuse. Here is a thought for other Mac people- perhaps the Unix command-line tools are best suited for _programs_ using them, not humans. It seems that for networking in particular, it's pretty easy to set things up so everything is a stream of bytes like Unix wants. Given that there are situations where data types are more complex, given that we already have code and APIs and programs to do the fancy stuff, is there any reason _not_ to let things which are already a stream of bytes _be_ a stream of bytes and let the Unix code (say, the GNU stuff Garance speaks well of) handle it? Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 97 09:17:44 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-9-27.access.one.net In-reply-to: sanguish@digifix.com's message of 21 Jan 1997 06:48:45 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21820 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54044 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180947 comp.sys.mac.system:193044 In article <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes: On 01/20/97, William Raphael Hix wrote: >Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac >application B. In this case, what is the point of including this >utility in the OS? Because its required by those who don't have the commercial product. Hell, better drop Edit.app from the release, its a RTF text editor, and the word processor people are going to scream. I'm prepared to release a commercial windowing system, if only we can get them to drop the current windowing system. I'd also be willing to get people together to release a commercial file system (again, only if they drop the current filesystems). Oh, probably should drop TCP/IP again, because there are some people who don't use it (and we already have commercial versions of that :-). Ah, well, now _there's_ an argument. _With_ the Unix utilities, FutureMac would be more useful to more people without having to spend additional bucks. Perhaps there will even be people out there who think it's stupid to have a Mac windowing system, when they just want to use Emacs in a text window. Apalling, isn't it? :-). Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:02:15 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32E4DA77.3678@exnext.com> References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21821 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54045 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180948 comp.sys.mac.system:193045 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > > Really, there's no point in ripping out Unix. > > Yes there _is_: > > a) easier on the programmers So NT is easier to program than, say, BSD Unix? Not likely. Especially if the program you're working on came from a Unix platform. > b) more cross platform Again, not likely. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:21:41 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 107 Message-ID: <32E4DF05.7E8F@exnext.com> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21822 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54047 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180950 comp.sys.mac.system:193047 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > Who > > cares if they buy Solaris, or Windows NT, or run linux on a cheap > > Pentium? Who needs em. > > That's a sophomoric argument and you know it. No, it's really not. Apple needs to increase marketshare. Thus, it needs to sell to people who currently would run Solaris, NT, or linux. > > Apple doesn't need new markets, right? Their current markets are doing > > *just fine*. They're doing just fine on their own. Selling to them home > > users, schools, and artists. > > No, but Unix's market share isn't exactly growing by leaps and bounds > either, even with all the interest in the Internet saving it. And why is Unix's market share not growing? Because it doesn't have the general-purpose apps or ease-of use of, say, Windows NT. Rhapsody should provide both of these things. I also have to wonder what the Unix share would look like if Linux was included. > > Oh, that's right. Apple's marketshare is dwindling. Apple's > > traditional markets are moving to Windows. Schools, homes, graphics > > professionals. > > Oh yeah, and NeXT's superior technology will help a lot here. Just look > at how successful it was when they sold machines running it. This isn't about NeXT. This is about Apple, and the fact that Apple is losing marketshare. > As every Apple owner will tell you - technology doesn't create markets. This is true. However, Apple's failing in existing markets. Apple no longer has a compelling advantage in these markets. And there are other existing markets that Apple has no presence in. > > Evidently, Apple must not be selling what people want > > anymore. > > But Apple DOES sell Unixen now, and no one's buying them either. This > is not an argument for Unix. Apple's current Unix offerings are AIX. Which suffers from the same problems as other plain Unixes: no mass-market software, poor ease-of-use. Rhapsody with a Unix layer would suffer from neither of these problems. > > I think Apple should spend some time to find out exactly what > > users want. *Not* current Mac users. Former Mac users. Mac users > > who have left the Mac for NT, Solaris, Linux, IRIX, whatever. > > Total Mac ownership continues to grow, that's not an issue. The issue > is that the rest of the market grows faster. Yeah. I know of two macs. They're sitting in a closet in Connecticut. But are Mac owners replacing their old Macs with new Macs, or PCs? It seems like the answer is PC's. > > Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully > > sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% > > marketshare. > > Uhhh, what? Win has 70% of the market, Apple 6% (in new sales) and the > other 25% is divided up among all the rest. Even if that's all Unix, 1% > of that is only .25% of the overall market. > > Maybe I'm missing something, but I'd like to see your explanation of > this number. It came from the post I was following-up. They said something about the 1% of users who want Unix. Nothing scientific about it. ;) The point is that it may seem like very few people want Unix. But very few people want Macs. The Unix market may be small, but Apple cannot afford to turn away anything that could increase their marketshare. When you've only got 6%, even a .5% increase is worthwhile. And if Apple doesn't grab that market, Microsoft will. Which Apple definitely cannot afford. > > If Apple can grab back the graphics professionals who are using > > NT, they could probably add another .5%. If Apple can grab > > webserver marketshare from WinNT, that might account for another > > .5%. (This would likely be easier if Apple shipped Rhapsody > > on Intel). That'd increase Mac marketshare by another 1%. > > And how do any of these revolve around having the Unix shell utils in > their current form rather than an updated one? Webservers: It'd be a lot easier to recompile a webserver and other related tools if the Unix environment hasn't been mangled. The ability to use tools that were developed on Linux, without having to hack makefiles, is a big plus. For graphics? Eh, it might not matter. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:34:49 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c0nkk$r0l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c11f7$3po@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21823 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54057 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180959 comp.sys.mac.system:193048 In article <5c11f7$3po@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > Depends :-) If an app includes a single statement that registers one of > its objects as a distributed objects server, then a client process can access > that server object and any other objects accessible via the server object. Fair enough. > Or if an app is designed to be extensible by dynamically loading code at > run-time, then this distributed objects registration statement can be > included in the loaded code thus making certain of the app's objects > available to clients. Right. > We use this approach to drive OPENSTEP's > InterfaceBuilder as a distributed objects server even though it was never > designed to operate this way :-) Hmmm. You actually call code right out of IB? Cool. And is this all networkable by default, or is this a "user" process that's logged in running locally. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:33:39 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 8 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E3FA7A.5DEA@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21824 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54058 comp.sys.mac.system:193049 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180960 In article <32E3FA7A.5DEA@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > Where exactly do you intend to call the API from? Directly from a program, like you do with all the other Unix API's. That program may be a CLI shell, it may not. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:41:51 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54059 comp.sys.mac.system:193050 comp.sys.next.programmer:21825 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180961 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Great, so have a shell that calls the OOPS libs. > > In fact, have lots of them. > > "Calls the OOPS libs" how? With a program. You know, those funky "API" things. > Are you talking about having the system boot using a precompiled > executable? No, I'm talking about having a OOPS shared library of some form on the disk, rather than a CLI executable program that you fork off. That's it. > If so, remember that we already went through the reasoning > why that's not as good as having the system boot be configurable via an > interpreted shell. And it still could be. Is this really so strange? I am truly baffled at the number of questions I'm getting about this that seem to be confused about what I am suggesting. > Who cares whether the current average Mac user would want them or not Riiiiight. In fact, let's install NT on their drives too. VMS while we're at it. Have you heard of the term "distributed costs"? > so long as the ability to run those applications has no negative > implications to that Mac user besides $3 worth of disk space? Do you mean aside from the fact that code written to use them is thus not portable by definition? > Rhapsody has the potential to sell to a large number of markets that > Apple has never been successful in before-- such as corporate MCCA, > Internet/Intranet usage, the server market, web technology, the > important areas of higher education (ie, graduate CS/IS/Math programs > :-), and so forth. Basicly, Rhapsody will cover all of the areas where > Unix is popular, and hopefully will also make inroads into the normal > business environment which is currently dominated by Microsoft Windows. Great, so have a check box in Custom Install that states "Install Unix shell utilities" and you can do all of this? This is getting really repetitive. > Assuming, of course, that Apple doesn't do anything _completely_ > braindamaged-- which is the only description I have for the suggestion > of ripping Unix out of Rhapsody. Who said anything about ripping Unix out of Rhapsody?!? READ THE THREAD! > Don't you Mac advocates want Rhapsody to be used by people who are > currently using other operating systems? Or would you rather have > Apples' market share shrink even further? Just to satisfy the bigotry > of Unix-haters? How stupid can you get? Yes, in fact I want it to make their hard drives explode and erase all their existing code too. I want it to not run any Mac software either, and offer limited compatibility to the C64 only, in 22x20 screen resolution. Come on people, READ THE THREAD! > If prior experience hadn't taught me not to ask for the impossible Which is what I feel when I ask people to read the thread. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!btnet-feed2!btnet!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 16:33:39 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54060 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180962 comp.sys.mac.system:193053 comp.sys.next.programmer:21826 On 01/21/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > So which market do they go after? The PC market doesn't want Unix any > more than the Mac market does. > Umm, this jars a little with the success of Linux... Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:49:51 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54061 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180963 comp.sys.mac.system:193055 comp.sys.next.programmer:21827 In article <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger wrote: > If you were being sarcastic (I'll admit to not being sure, since your > arguments to date don't make a whole lot of sense, IMHO): Right. If the posts here are any indication, it's because people simply aren't reading them. I have stated for no less that TWO WEEKS the same points over and over, and to date I've seen only ONE person figure it out. Your reply is doubly insulting, something I am rather rapidly tiring off. While admonishing me for not being able to "debate", it's clear in the message I was replying to that you had not even understood what I had written. > stop congratulating yourself over this latest witty remark long enough > to provide the logical rationale behind your argument? I have repeatedly, including the message you replied to that generated this remark. I'm tired of being called a moron because... a) I don't need Unix shells on my machine b) I don't want Unix shells on my machine c) I think the whole system would work better with shared libraries rather than forked command line utilties Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!linux0.unsl.edu.ar!ralsina From: ralsina@ultra7.unl.edu.ar (Roberto Alsina) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 16:56:35 GMT Organization: Universidad Nacional de San Luis - Argentina Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: wwwsearch.unl.edu.ar X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.1.1 BETA UNIX) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21828 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54063 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180965 comp.sys.mac.system:193057 In article , Tony M. Carr wrote: >In article <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net>, Garance A Drosehn > wrote: > >> raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: >> > Example: does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup >> > utility with a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin >> > or Dantz who make backup software more or less eager to port to >> > Rhapsody? I think less likely, because the number of potential >> > buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the existance of tar and freeware >> > extentions. >> >> I don't think it effects them one bit. >> >Especially since tar doesn't do any compression, it simply lumps many files >into one file. That's why so many files on the internet have *.tar.gz file >names. They're run through tar then through gzip to compress the tar file. >There will definitely be a market for Stuffit & Retrospect under Rhapsody. > >Tony C. > Just as a comment: making a big file and then compressing it usually gives a better compression ratio than the pkzip compress-and-then-lump strategy. I don't know how the Mac compressors do it, though. Also: doing it that way is a *very* fundamental part of Unix philosophy (combine small progs that do only one thing). For example, a few months ago, somebody released a prog called bzip that compressed 25-30% better than gzip. So, I instantly got a 25% improvement in my compressed files. Regards. >-- >Tony M. Carr >Veteran of the Psychic War -- ("\''/").__..-''"`-. . Roberto Alsina `9_ 9 ) `-. ( ).`-._.`) ralsina@unl.edu.ar (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._`. " -.-' Centro de Telematica _..`-'_..-_/ /-'_.' Universidad Nacional del Litoral (l)-'' ((i).' ((!.' Santa Fe - Argentina #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: rickg@sunsoft.eng.sun.com (Richard Goldstein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: SPARC OpenStep & GCC Date: 21 Jan 1997 08:45:09 -0800 Organization: SunSoft, Inc. Lines: 39 Sender: rickg@upuaut Message-ID: References: Reply-To: rickg@eng.sun.com NNTP-Posting-Host: upuaut.eng.sun.com In-reply-to: Dirk Vleugels's message of 19 Jan 1997 23:01:32 +0100 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 From: Dirk Vleugels Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 19 Jan 1997 23:01:32 +0100 Organization: FhG ISST Dortmund, Germany Hi, i installed OpenStep 1.0 on a Creator2 running Solaris 2.5.1, and i'm quite impressed. Question: I do have the header files NS* & stuff + the shared libraries: .... Is it possible to develop software with the free GCC? Do i need the AppBuilder? I couldn't find a SUN ObjC compiler + OpenStep SDK. Haven't tried, but my guess is no, based on the lack of standard ABI for languages like C++ & ObjC. The Sun ObjC compiler is the same as the C++ compiler, look for that on the CD. rick -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Richard M. Goldstein richard.goldstein@Eng.Sun.COM 64-bit Linkers, Libs & Executables SunSoft, Inc. "Without time we pick up all the streams, and find the leaves that drift out inbetween..." -Kirkwood #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!news.eng.convex.com!newshost.convex.com!egsner!newshost.cyberramp.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:29:15 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net> <32E403A3.788@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21830 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54064 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180967 comp.sys.mac.system:193058 In article <32E403A3.788@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: > It's a bad thing if you want to attract customers who intend to use those > languages, and don't want to change. It was a joke. Regardless all of these languages are available on the Mac, some (if not all) on NeXT, all of them on the PC etc. It seems there's no problem here. > OpenStep is a framework for writing GUI-based apps. If such frameworks exist > for C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG or Assembly (I don't think they do in all > cases), then those frameworks are not compatible with OpenStep. Only for now. Apple has stated that Java will be a "first class" language upon release, how they do this may open the API to other languages as well. SOM is one possibility for instance, which is typically available with both OOPS wrappers (for SOM itself) and non-OOPS calls for other cases (CFM for instance). > And the original question wasn't the API for OpenStep, but rather the > API to the kernel and the standard UNIX utilities. Not in my case, my _only_ interest is the utilities. The kernel is fine the way it is, and there are lots and lots of direct calls to other Unix API's that seem just fine the way they are too. This thread is specifically about those utilities, they should be better. > I've heard differently. But I could be wrong. I'd be happy to wrong on this > pont, actually. Me too, but I don't really know for sure either. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:51:45 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21831 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54069 comp.sys.mac.system:193061 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180972 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Removing functionality cannot _possibly_ make programming easier. And there is is again, a clear indication that you have either not read the posts, or are incapable of understanding them. > can always decide to not use some API if you don't want to, but not > having an API available at all means that you will have to do more work > if/when you needed that functionality. Find a message in which I propose that the API's should be removed. In fact, I've been constantly and unwaveringly suggesting that all of them should indeed be API's, when in the current case they are not. > I'd question whether this is true, too. You can find versions of 'grep' > for almost every computer system available today. Ditto for most other > popular Unix tools: tar, diff, sh, etc, etc. Yes, but they don't come installed by default, so it's a moot point. If you use grep and port, you provide grep. So much for code reuse. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Remote cvs and .nib wrappers Date: 21 Jan 97 11:23:55 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 28 Distribution: comp Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-27.access.one.net I have a situation, here. The project has a core engine which is currently running on NeXTSTEP, OpenStep/Mach, OpenStep/NT, and StepStone (for Windows 3.1). Unfortunately, even with only two active developers, keeping everyone up-to-speed on changes is becoming a problem, especially because we aren't at a single site. Right now we effectively swap code trees every month or so, and each run FileMerge to look over the diffs. This is annoying. Right now I can easily enough get things set up in cvs so that I can share the engine between the NeXTSTEP and OpenStep/Mach versions, on my local network. The problem still comes up when I go to OpenStep/NT, though. Since this is what computers are good at ... I've been exploring the remote features of cvs. Unfortunately, it seems that remote cvs doesn't work in combination with wrappers, so cvs can't handle .nib files in the repository. Has anyone gotten that working? Fortunately, the engine itself does not use .nib files, and the OS/Mach and OS/NT .nibs are starting to diverge already (with good reason :-). So I may be able to work around the problem by segregating the project somewhat. Still, though, I'd rather it Just Worked. Thanks, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:03:45 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21833 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54072 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180978 comp.sys.mac.system:193062 In article <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > If you're developing GUI apps, you can already completely ignore the Unix API > and tools. Openstep offers enough OS abstraction that you should be able to > do any GUI app without touching Unix _if_you_want_to_. And that should be > completely cross platform. Good so far. > So, it's no more easier on the programmers nor more cross platform supporting > to rip out the Unix tools/layer. But the code that does call it is indeed not cross platform. Whereas if the same code was provided in standard libraries it would be. Which portion do you not understand: a) it's easier to have API's than use streams? b) if you're in an OOPS paradigm you'd like to stay there? c) if you use system() you're not cross platform? d) shared libs run in the application's space, thus requiring less demands of the OS to be nicely MT? I mean, what is so terribly difficult to grasp about any of these points? > Compared to everything else in > Openstep/Mach, the unix things like /bin, etc, are rather small. Ripping > them out wont get you much in the way of disk space nor anything else, and it > will only cost you in functionality and flexability. No one has _ever_ advocated their complete removal. The other posts and my own have suggested making OOPS based versions of the same thing. I have mentioned this in every letter I've posted for the last three days, how can everyone continue to miss this point? > Now, if you as a programmer WANT to use the Unix tools, why shouldn't you be > allowed to? Sure, knowing full well what the issues are. And as a programmer, if you want to avoid the problems, shouldn't you be able to? Yes? Then why can't you now without having to write all the code yourself? > (just like "if you as a user WANT to use the unix CLI and tools, why > shouldn't you be allowed to?") It is dubious at best to assert that someone > should be FORCED to write to any API, or limited to any set of user tools, > solely for religious reasons (even if the chosen tools are better.. users and > programmers have the right to choose). What religious reasons? Can you point to them? What is "religious" about wanting to stay in an OOPS paradigm? Or wanting to have the features of the Unix utilities in a cross platform form? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news1.epix.net!news4.epix.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:57:14 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c16dv$586@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21834 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54073 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180984 comp.sys.mac.system:193064 In article <5c16dv$586@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >a) easier on the programmers > >b) more cross platform > > I don't understand this. How could it be more cross-platform by removing > compatibility with one of two major platforms outside the MacOS? Because none of the other platforms have the same utilities installed by default? Quick, where is find on my NT box? > As for easier on the programmers, I think Be has the right idea. It's > POSIX-compliant (or nearly so) for compatibility reasons, but once > developers start programming the Be way, they don't want to keep using the > POSIX way. Unix compatibility has nothing to do with making it easy to > program. I agree, but something that's OOPS all the way is easier than something that's 1/2 and 1/2 wouldn't you say? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:09:42 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5c1cb7$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21835 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54074 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180985 comp.sys.mac.system:193065 In article <5c1cb7$nhr@duke.squonk.net>, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > Uh, and how is that different from a standard system library? It's OOPS based, has a self-published interface, is cross platform, runs in the application rather than needing to be forked. That's how. > The fact that you'll break up one "standard system library" into > many "small" shared libs? Well, unix already has several standard > libs, and it's the collection which is considered the "standard > system library". It is not a single file. Here I am wondering how you came to this conclusion. > /usr/lib. The difference does not seem all that profound to me. Asside from the fact that it would say "InputSproket shared library" rather than "grep"? Or that programs could call them directly rather than forking? Or that they would have OOPS interfaces? > (note that if you install the "small libs" in the separate folders > of various applications, then those libs are no longer "shared"...) Only if your OS doesn't support it. That's an argument for registering them. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!srvr1.engin.umich.edu!umass.edu!192.33.12.30!jklein From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Allow other apps in front duing modal session? Date: 21 Jan 97 01:33:22 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 15 Message-ID: <32e41ce2.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hampshire.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Thanks to those who responded to my previous post -- a modal session turns out to be just the thing I needed. My only peeve is that I can't use other apps while the modal session is running. Actually, I can click on them and send events to them, but I can't get the windows from another app to the front of the screen. Due to the nature of of 'modal', I suspect that there is nothing I can do -- if there is, please tell me about it! Thanks! -- -jon klein jklein@freon.artificial.com Caper will do it for me. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!ames!taligent!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:12:03 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> <5c0lgn$r2b@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1d0j$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21837 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54077 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180989 comp.sys.mac.system:193072 In article <5c1d0j$nhr@duke.squonk.net>, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > Of course, they don't need it with WindowsNT because WindowsNT > already has those facilities implemented. Really? I don't seem to have a /bin on my NT system. Nor grep. So exactly how does NT include all of the Unix shell utilities again? What, you mean with API's? > throw out the Unix layer Why would they do that? Who's asking them too? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!amtmtc.demon.co.uk!andy From: andy@amtmtc.demon.co.uk (Andy Templeman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:42:58 +0000 Organization: Not Known Lines: 15 Message-ID: <199701211742586676963@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: amtmtc.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: amtmtc.demon.co.uk X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54081 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:180995 comp.sys.mac.system:193076 comp.sys.next.programmer:21838 Charles W Swiger wrote: > Because you need the shell and the utils in order for the operating > system to boot in a flexible way that can be maintained by a system > administrator. Macs have traditionally been touted as systems where you don't need a system administrator. A lot of home users are not C.S. savvy and want the new system to be as simple to install and administer as system 7 is, with the advantages that a protected & pre-emptive system can give. -- ................................................................. "Come Here! You've got my tankard" - Poldark on Mopeds ................................................................. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 21 Jan 1997 16:08:58 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 67 Message-ID: <5c2pmq$fec@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11089 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3628 comp.sys.next.programmer:21839 From article <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org>, by toon@gaea.titan.org (Greg Titus): > Michael Hudson writes: > >>I have just read in excess of twenty posts about "Multiple Inheritance >>(Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks)" that discussed the relative merits of >>Objective-C and C++. > >>Does Objective-C have templates? > > Nope. Don't need 'em. Templates are a hack to get around the limitations in > C++'s strong binding. When you want to manipulate objects in a generic way in > Objective-C you just declare your arguments as "id" (any object), and the > same method works for everything instead of the compiler making multiple > copies of the code for every type of object you might use. This is completely wrong. Templates support type-safe containers and are about the farthest thing from a hack. In most languages, you cannot create an array type, or any container with similar properties, yourself. You can create rough approximations but nothing with the same expressive power as a built-in array type. In C++, you can achieve the generic array mechanism above by defining an array "class" of void * and casting where necessary. > >>While we're about it, are the following features present, absent or >>irrelevant? (I'm not implying that I couldn't live without them all; I'm >>just curious) > >>Exceptions > > Yep. Wrapped in objects, even. Get passed back across Distributed Objects > connections, even. Of course this could be done for any language via macros or other non- standard extensions. The beauty of standardized exceptions, whether in C++, Java, or Standard ML, is that they are well-defined in the context of other language features, libraries, and compiler error reporting and optimizations. >>Function overloading >>User defined type conversions > > Nope. These lose a lot of their utility when type isn't so important, as in > C++. This is not true either, as I think any Prolog programmer would tell you. Overloading is simply giving the same name to different realizations of the same logical construct, allowing the programmer to tailor routines to specific cases while maintaining overall conceptual clarity. With overloading, you remember the logical part (e.g., "Draw()") and the compiler selects the routine. This is not much different than overriding a method. User-defined conversions give you the ability to define what the compiler already does for the built-in types. If I define a Fraction type, I would like to define conversions from integers, etc, >>I apologise if I'm being uncultured, but C++ is my only language. > > C++ and Objective-C can be used together, also - even mixed into the same > file, and compiled with the -ObjC++ flag, which supports the superset of > the two languages syntax. This is probably not part of the language definition of Objective-C, but a particular implementation. There is no guaranteed that every compiler vendor can or will provide such features. -mc #################################################################### Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:04:10 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Distribution: world Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 132 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port1.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11090 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3629 comp.sys.next.programmer:21840 In article , ENGELHART.M@applelink.apple.com (Michael Engelhart) wrote: > > What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the > > Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on > > earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? > > Same reason the universe at large bought into Microsoft Windows... :-) This is simplistic enough to be downright wrong. The succes of C++ is not due to better marketing, nor market leverage, nor due to a bad business decision by IBM, nor due to lower cost of software or platform/hardware than the competition, etc. Skip this lengthy defense of C++ if you like, but you might be interested in why someone like me still uses it. C++ made it largely on its own merits. C++ made good sense in the context of the evolution of computer languages and still has more life than many give credit for. It is still evolving with better environments, compilers, and linkers and debugging that provide for integrated development, sophisticated warnings/error detection, global analysis and other features that answer many of the criticisms leveled against it. Because C++ has a very low runtime overhead and is easily extensible (_cheaply_ extensible), it can still have a vital role in software development. It can extended with little effort to provide runtime type checking and assertion, and many other features that more modern languages boast. Although it lacks runtime binding, there are advantages in using a language neutral binding interface. One of the most common criticisms is that it is too large (linguistic bloat). But awareness of good programming practices keeps one using a restrictive, safe subset of the language. The only really dire problem, in practice, in my opinion, is lack of transparent garbage collection (made very difficult to implement by the allowance for pointer arithmetic). I have read (and greatly enjoyed) Joyner's 3rd edition of "A Critique of C++", and did not find a single inaccurate statement in it. If I were starting a new project on a platform that had very strong support for Eiffel, that would be my choice of language. I would love to get rid of header files, have assertion and other runtime debugging integrated into my language. I really aprreciate all of Eiffel's qualitues. But Obj-C and Java (so far) have far too many limitations for the sort of development I do. Joyner's critique suffers certain flaws in assumption, however. No weight is assigned to the practical likelyhood of individual flaws actually impacting on a software development project. A year or so ago I completed a term as lead programmer for a 9+ programmer-year project (whose product I am now maintaining), and would like to make the following observations. I have managed projects in Pascal and Object Pascal with similar experiences (perhaps I am a lousy manager!!!). I would list the relative importance of the factors that complicated our project as follows. 1. Poor code organization and structure (including poor encapsulation, naming, lack of documentation, etc.). I am refering here maintenence difficulties that result from bad judgements and habits of less experienced programmers in implementing code internal to their own modules. This could have been alleviated by consistent code review and "micro-management" but in our case that very likely would have cost more than did the resulting maintenence headaches. I have heard said that good code organization is easier with say Obj-C, but lets face it folks, here the burden is mostly on the programmer. Even in Eiffel it is up to the coder to make good use of require and ensure, to use good names, and clear language in the "is" clause, and to make correct encapsulation decisions. 2. Changes to (advances in) and bugs in target OS and development environment. Well, look, I suppose we could have targeted a more boring platform and used a stagnant development environment. This factor can be managed by (when possible) postponing upgrades until major product releases, and avoiding beta quality tools. But sometimes (as was the case in our project when Metrowerks appeared) the advantages of upgrading outweigh the costs. We spent alot of time porting stuff first to Object Master, then to Metrowerks, and through one upgrade of MacApp (now a second after the product release). But C++ was and still is the best supported language for our target. We would have sufferd more using viable alternatives (and VisualBasic, etc., were not viable). 3. Training. C++ is harder to learn than most alternatives. However, learning new or changed OS and development environment has been _far_ more coslty to us (all the team members had experience with C, most with C++). I personally have never had any trouble adjusting to a new language (in every case I can think of at this moment, I have used a language "feature" of a new language as a programming "technique" in a previous language). Good code design is hard to teach, but I have found that C++ does not get in the way. 4. Memory managment related errors. I isolate this factor from other types of bugs because of its severity, and the difficulty of detection. This was not nearly as bad a problem as it could have been because we made exhaustive use of assertion. But it was certainly a significant factor, especially when code was modified by a person other than the author and who incorrectly understood the "contract" or intended purpose/parameter requirements of a method. Thus this could have been alleviated by better code organization, mentioned above. There are lots of instances where pointer arithmetic makes for both readable and efficient code, although I admit this amounts to only slight justification for lack of garbage collection. 5. All other factors mentioned in Joyner's critique. We had no problem avoiding the sorts of ambiguities Joyner complains about. We didn't even have to discuss them. It took us all of a few minutes to implement tools for assertion, and MacApp provided other tools for runtime error detection. Some of the critiques have been made obsolete by new compilers and linkers. Maintaining header files was boring but not very time consuming. Etc., etc. Conclusion. So here is my point. Most the "linguistic" advantages of other languages over C++ are _small_ compared to other factors active in the business of software development. With the one exception of garbage collection, I think Joyner's (and other's) critiques, though correct, are alarmist and exagerated in importance; I agree with Stroustrup, that the flaws of C++ are acceptable. Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mach-O and localization, was Re: Apple-NeXT Conflicts? Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:34:28 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <5bsj1f$llh@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181005 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54087 comp.sys.next.programmer:21841 In article <5bsj1f$llh@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Because (you see this coming) the forked-file concept sucks and app > wrappers are better. :) I don't see how. It appears that when it comes to being able to be represented on multiple machines, Mach-o is indeed better. The fact that features made it into wrappers that didn't make it into Mach-o doesn't mean it should be that way. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:21:27 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <32E4DF05.7E8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21842 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54089 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181008 comp.sys.mac.system:193087 In article <32E4DF05.7E8F@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > No, it's really not. Apple needs to increase marketshare. Thus, it needs > to sell to people who currently would run Solaris, NT, or linux. Apple already has a Unix to sell to these people. No one's buying it. Selling another Unix doesn't seem to help them any, unless you have an argument on why that I haven't seen. > And why is Unix's market share not growing? Because it doesn't > have the general-purpose apps or ease-of use of, say, Windows NT. > Rhapsody should provide both of these things. I agree, and again am left wondering how the hard to use Unix utilities figure into your argument. It would appear to me that a Unix with these replaced would do even better, no? > I also have to wonder what the Unix share would look like if > Linux was included. From what I've seen in InformationWeek (I think, I was in Ireland at the time), about 1% of the market is Linux. > > Oh yeah, and NeXT's superior technology will help a lot here. Just look > > at how successful it was when they sold machines running it. > > This isn't about NeXT. This is about Apple, and the fact that Apple > is losing marketshare. And it's about NeXT, because that's what Apple bought. NeXT was the better Unix, and it didn't sell. Why should hosting it on the PMac do any better? > Apple's current Unix offerings are AIX. Which suffers from the same > problems as other plain Unixes: no mass-market software, poor > ease-of-use. And yet those other Unixen outsell it considerably. Although I agree completely that the NeXT version is better than all of these put together my point remains: Apple will not increase market share _because_ they have a Unix. > Yeah. I know of two macs. They're sitting in a closet in Connecticut. > But are Mac owners replacing their old Macs with new Macs, or PCs? It > seems like the answer is PC's. Depends on who you read, but many (no, not most) people that are buying Macs are buying their first Mac. This is not true of the industry in general, where something to the effect of 90% (could be 80%) of Win purchases are replacing current machines. > The point is that it may seem like very few people want Unix. But > very few people want Macs. The Unix market may be small, but Apple > cannot afford to turn away anything that could increase their > marketshare. > When you've only got 6%, even a .5% increase is worthwhile. Well I would agree with that for sure, but it would appear to me the other 80% would be even better to go after. > And if Apple doesn't grab that market, Microsoft will. I think they already did. > Webservers: It'd be a lot easier to recompile a webserver and other > related tools if the Unix environment hasn't been mangled. I don't think this will mangle it at all. Quite the opposite in some cases. If you want the shell utilities, click Custom Install, click "Unix utilities". End of issue. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:47:10 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <5bq73r$e18$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 In article , antispam@apple.com (Cary Farrier (farrier@apple.com)) wrote: > Yep. We're looking into the technical aspects right now. > > -> Cary Not too sound too crazy or anything, but can you get a 68k version of InputSprocket out first? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in1.uu.net!160.45.4.4!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 14 Jan 1997 20:57:00 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bgrus$nkc$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes: > In article <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com>, Eren_Kotan@next.com wrote: > > > id myArray = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@"One", @"Two", @"Three", nil]; > > I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical context, > but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. Really just a convention so different class libraries can be intermixed without having to extend the language. Also an important reminder/warning: this is NeXT's idea of what an array behaves like, not the-ultimate-class-that-forever-defines-what- an-array-is. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:09:41 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21845 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181016 comp.sys.mac.system:193102 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54093 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Apparently not, because you are arguing that we should not reuse the > preexisting code available in the form of the Unix utilities, and should > instead write APIs and an implementation in the C system library for all > of those utilities. That is the opposite of "code reuse"! Until you add in the words "OpenStep on NT". Once that's included it's clear that modern code indeed offers considerably better chances for code reuse than the current shell utilities. > The point is, regardless of what it's called or whether it's just one or > several libraries-- there is no point at all of creating tens of > thousands of system calls to replace the Unix command line utilities There are "tens of thousands" of command line utilities? And there's lots of reasons to do this. > unless that mammoth API is available on all of the hardware/operating This "mammoth" API is exactly as large as the current one. In fact, good design would allow it to be much smaller in fact (combine content and directory searching operations inside a single query object for instance). However, unlike the current API, it's language neutral, platform neutral, OOPS based and publishes its own interface. It also would allow for direct calls to the API using objects so you don't have to flatten your objects, and will pass back data or exceptions in the same way. Really now, the advantages are both obvious and huge. If they weren't, why did they create OpenStep in the first place? > system combinations that you're replacing the Unix CLI utilities, > otherwise programmers won't be able to depend on all of the API being > available, which would make it far less useful. The _current_ code is not available on all platforms, OpenStep for NT for instance. This not only makes this argument moot, but provides even more ammo for replacing it. > Besides which, why don't you try to estimate the number of > developer-years such a task would require? Two? Which utility in particular do you think is hard to recreate? > Sure it is. In fact, that's one of the reasons why OpenStep is pretty cool. > > > Code reuse: it's a good idea. > > Again, writing a new library which provides functionality already > implemented by Unix command-line tools is the precise opposite of code > reuse. Only if you consider the case when you're running on Unix. This is not the only case. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!news From: Michael Taylor Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:05:07 -0500 Organization: Alias|Wavefront Lines: 37 Message-ID: <32E51363.2C67@aw.sgi.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <199701211742586676963@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.tor.aw.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; IRIX 6.2 IP22) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54094 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181017 comp.sys.mac.system:193103 comp.sys.next.programmer:21846 > Macs have traditionally been touted as systems where you don't need a > system administrator. A lot of home users are not C.S. savvy and want > the new system to be as simple to install and administer as system 7 is, > with the advantages that a protected & pre-emptive system can give. > Sure, if you've got one Mac or half a dozen macs, then you don't need a system administrator. If you've got a network of a hundred macs, you will need a system administrator. Administrating 100 Macs and keeping them all up to date with recent software would be a difficult assignment. Unix is build to give a professional administrator the tools they need to efficiently maintain large networks. Apple has a chance to crack the enterprise computing market. Unix traditionally has done well in these markets despite having less software and worse user interface libraries. When Joe User calls you and tells you he can't run program X on his machine, it's a lot more efficient to log in remotely, retarget the display, and start testing than it is to pack up your manuals and start hunting for his desk. No to mention the advantage of not having to boot Joe off of his computer while you fix it. These are the sort of things that are taken for granted in the Unix community. I would assert the following: - one Mac is much easier to administrate than one Unix box - 100 Unix boxes are much easier to administrate than 100 Macs With better UI tools and more Unix hiding, the first statement should not necessarily hold for the next gen mac systems. /\/\ike -- /\/\ike Taylor | Mail: mtaylor@aw.sgi.com Alias|Wavefront Toronto | Voice: (416) 362-8558 x8740 Developer, API Team =D--' http://reality.sgi.com/mtaylor #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 21 Jan 1997 19:06:30 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 59 Message-ID: <5c343m$1ko@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21847 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54097 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181022 comp.sys.mac.system:193108 Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: : raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: : : Umm, Unix is important for people who want to run servers, you know. : There is a lot of server-related software out there for Unix. A lot of : it won't work if you throw out random utilities that are generally : assumed to exist on a Unix platform. Do you want to see Rhapsody have : an impact in the corporate environment? Not everyone is a home user. Is Unix important to people who want to run servers? Or is a protected memory, pre-emptively multitasking modern OS with a high performance file system what they want. Yes, until recently this meant Unix, but does it need to. I'd say the growth of Win NT indicates that not all people who run servers want Unix. There might be a better way. : (And remember, Unix is the only thing that currently competes with : Windows NT. Just being able to say that their operating system is Unix : gets Apple's foot in the door with the corporate types, most of whom : regard the Mac as a toy when it comes to high-end servers.) Getting into the high end server market against such established companies as Sun, HP, and DEC plus Win NT is even harder than shoring up Apple's strengths. Is another version of Unix the best way to go? Is servers the best place to get a foothold in the enterprise market? It is the part of enterprise furthest from Apple-NeXT's current strengths? I don't think that servers are the right entry for Apple. Content and application development build better on the existing strengths. But the important question is what Apple thinks? We'll see in a year, when the user releases of Rhapsody start. : > What about find? Should Apple leave the Unix find when we know they're : > going to include their new V-Twin search engine and Find File. Well, the : > V-Twin certainly replaces find if you are a GUI user, but what about CLI and : > scripts? Will Apple leave find for the 1% of users who might want to : > use their Mac like a Unix box? : : Why not? All these Unix utilities don't take up much space. Crippling : a Unix system isn't worth the effort. The _only_ consideration is : whether the existence of these utilities will hurt developers with : similar products, and I don't think that this is a serious problem. I : doubt 'find' is going to replace V-Twin for desktop use, but there are : plenty of sysadmins and shell scripts who use it. But the developer consideration is important to Apple. How important is unclear, but Apple has said that developer support will be critical to Rhapsody's success. What will they sacrifice in order to get developer support? If the question is supporting current Mac developers or Unix developers, the choice is clear. Hopefully they can find a compromise which satisfy both. Again, we'll know in a year. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:32:51 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E404D1.24FA@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21848 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54101 comp.sys.mac.system:193113 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181030 In article <32E404D1.24FA@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: > > > MailTool > > > sendMessage: 'This is the contents of the message.' > > > withSubject: 'My Subject' > > > to: ' > > > One must assume the existence of an object storing much of this data > > even in the Unix case. Thus the line would become something to the effect > > of... > > > > myMessage.send; > > Your comment leaves me baffled. I fail to understand your point. Perhaps > you could elaborate? Certainly, but it's basically "what you said", although I used some pseudo-OOPS there. If you're writing a real application under OpenStep, you pretty much have to assume that you've created an object for storing up the components of the message you want to send. So instead of placing strings in the call as you did in your example, I assume that these had already been placed in fields in some object that inherited code from a Mail API in a shared library. MAPI is a good example of a non-OOPS version of what I'm referring too. This being the case, the call I illustrated would likely be closer to the truth, you'd build the object at various prior stages of the code, and once complete, simply call it's send method. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.be.com!news1.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 11:38:58 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5c360i$gvq@crl.crl.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21849 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54103 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181036 comp.sys.mac.system:193122 In article , Travis Butler wrote: >>If Apple wants the new OS to be a useful Unix platform >>(and they should) > >Here is the main point where you and I part company. I don't *want* the new >OS to be a 'useful Unix platform' if it comes at the expense of the Mac's >ease of use. I didn't buy a Unix box; I bought a Mac. If I'd wanted to buy >a Unix box, I could have plunked down less cash than I spent on my Mac and >bought a cheap Intel box running linux/X. I bought a Mac because I *wanted* >a Mac, not a Unix box. There are two mostly disjoint sets of people that can be addressed by Rhapsody: server people and friendly client people. Unix is very good at the server side of things--you can grab Apache or NCSA web servers, run mail gateways, serve up filesystems, and so on. The existing Openstep implementation is very good at being a friendly client that shields people from having to know anything about Unix. Because it's good at one doesn't mean it has to be bad at the other. -- Don McGregor | "If C++ is your hammer, then every problem looks mcgredo@crl.com | like a thumb." -- will@dyson.microserve.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:46:00 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21850 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54104 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181037 comp.sys.mac.system:193124 In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without *forcing* > users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need to see or use them > unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't mind. But what I saw of > NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that way, and the comments I've seen > here suggest that it hasn't changed in this respect. Worse, when you suggest that you don't want to run all these great shell utilities, they simply can't figure out why not. > Sorry, I'm starting to ramble here. My point is: Should you complicate or > burden the user experience of 95% of the user base to benefit the 5% that > actually make use of the Unix power features? I think that's a mighty poor > tradeoff for a general-purpose OS. Hear hear. > Let me turn the question around: Should Joe Average User have to wade > through Unix arcanum just to use the computer, when he doesn't know or care > what 1/4 of the things mean, let alone how to use them -- just so that the > small percentage of Unix gurus can easily run install scripts? Distributed costs... Distributed costs... Distributed costs... > I'll say it again... the vast majority of Rhapsody users will be *current > Mac users*, NOT Unix users. In fact, the vast majority won't even be NeXT users. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:55:54 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21851 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181043 comp.sys.mac.system:193128 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54106 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Because the two issues are unrelated? They are _identical_. > Well, if you want to scatter your applications around even though it > makes your computer less functional and harder for other people to use, > you can. Good, then let me. You are actually advocating that YOUR setup is better for me than MY setup? I would never say that to you, so why should I use an OS that enforces it? > I don't see why anyone would want to make their computer > harder to use, but then, that's just my preference for thinking > rationally showing through.... Oh, it's terribly rational for the computer to dictate where the user places files, rather than the other way around. You must use some other definition of "rational". > No, it's not, although I am unsurprised to discover that a Mac advocate > has not had exposure to large computer networks administered by an > organization. I've RUN large networks administered by an organization. > For example, CMU has hundreds of Macs in the clusters > with a very consistent filesystem layout. Bully for them. I believe you'll find that your experiences in university and the commercial world will be largely different. > Most Mac users here like the idea, so they generally arrange their > computers in similar ways to the cluster machines What cluster machines? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:05:46 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <5c17j7$1e44@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21852 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54108 comp.sys.mac.system:193132 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181045 In article <5c17j7$1e44@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) wrote: > Everybody agrees that a standard mail API would be nice. The > point is not that it wouldn't be useful the point is that THERE > ISN'T ONE. That's the problem, problems should be fixed. Complaining that there's no API doesn't help anyone. > Has anyone said it's impossible? The key points are: > > * They all EXIST in the form of CLI utilities > * It would be POSSIBLE to write them in API form I think we all agree on this? > Apple has 6 months to get a developer's release out. In that > time do you honestly believe they're going to design, write, > test, and document an API to replace all of UNIX's command line > functionality? Can you find a single post in which I advocated this? > I would love to see a brilliant OO API for every conceivable > need, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. And as long as everyone shares this opinion, it will never get better. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:18:36 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21853 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54112 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181052 comp.sys.mac.system:193137 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > 2) The Unix tools are (quite frankly) not nearly well enough rounded > to be made into a generalized library. Thank you. > The first two points mean that a generalized, well-designed set of OOP > libraries implementing the same set of functionality as a particular > set of Unix command-line utilities will take 2-4 times the effort to > develop. My experience indicates that that is a _conservative_ > estimate. The effort required is likely to be open-ended. So for this reason we should live with the status quo and not even bother? Sorry, this doesn't strike me as a particularly strong argument. > The third point means that we only have a small subset of the possible > programmers who would have any incentive to work on the problem. > Since these OOP libraries won't as easily portable outside of MythOS, > anyone not on that platform won't have incentive to work on them. There's no reason why such libraries cannot be far more portable than you suggest here. Most modern library systems can not only support multiple languages, but multiple platforms and both OOPS and functional interfaces all at the same time. > So, we have perhaps 10% of the man-hours applied to a problem that 3x > harder than it needs to be. It's _very_ unlikely that this is going > to happen. I agree, but this again doesn't mean that it _shouldn't_ happen. > Each specific operation I've done in Unix probably would be slicker if > it had a GUI counterpart. On the other hand, any package which had > that many functions would be impossible to understand Ummm, you can wrap your head around the collection of Unix utilties but not the same collection re-implemented? Take the simple case, a 1:1 library. Now explain how this is any harder to understand than the current solution. > [In practice: A GUI grep-like program would be useful to many people. > A GUI program to find all *.h files which contain the phrase "Public > Interface" and then use their path relative to a given absolute as a > basis to create a symlink in another directory is probably _not_ going > to happen. Partially, this is because such a program would require so > much flexibility that it will probably require a scripting language, > at which point it might as well be a shell script, or even a "lambda" > version (a single command-line tied together with pipes).] I would recommend that you look at some of the OOPS database engines before stating this so strongly. I've seen quite a few generalized query objects, including one based in SOM for OpenDoc for instance. Not only is it possible, it's been done. And it's been done in a market that doesn't even really exist yet. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 21 Jan 1997 20:22:42 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 76 Message-ID: <5c38ii$5ol@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21854 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54113 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181053 comp.sys.mac.system:193138 Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@exnext.com) wrote: : : Actually, Apple should let all those people who want Unix hang. Who : cares if they buy Solaris, or Windows NT, or run linux on a cheap : Pentium? Who needs em. Obviously Apple wants as many new customers as they can get, but that takes time. For Apple to survive they need to enhance their current strenghs and then reach out to new areas. Protected memory, pre-emptive multitasking, and a high performance file system are important to all high performance computing tasks, content and application development, data and image processing. Unix compatibility is much less important. Apple will need to consider the trade offs and make a decision based on where it wants to compete. : Apple doesn't need new markets, right? Their current markets are doing : *just fine*. They're doing just fine on their own. Selling to them home : users, schools, and artists. : : Oh, that's right. Apple's marketshare is dwindling. Apple's : traditional markets are moving to Windows. Schools, homes, graphics : professionals. Evidently, Apple must not be selling what people want : anymore. Apple isn't even holding on to their *current* customers. : I think Apple should spend some time to find out exactly what : users want. *Not* current Mac users. Former Mac users. Mac users : who have left the Mac for NT, Solaris, Linux, IRIX, whatever. : Obviously, Apple can't grow their marketshare selling to current : Mac owners. Apple has to design Rhapsody for former Mac owners. : Then they have to make it clear that Rhapsody is what they really : wanted, and that they should come back. An Intel port of Rhapsody : would make this easier. Most of Apple's losses are to Win95 and, to a lesser extent, Win NT, users who have demonstrated little interest in Unix compatibility. Even when Apple had a Unix, A-UX, it drew little support outside of academia. Apple needs to compete against Microsoft and this requires little Unix compatibility. As a workstation user, I'd love to see Rhapsody have as much Unix compatibility as possible. I'm not sure Apple will agree with me. : Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully : sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% : marketshare. A 16% increase in Mac marketshare. Furthermore, it's : an increase, which Apple hasn't seen in many moons. Exactly what percentage of users do you think want Unix compatibility? I don't mean the features of a modern OS, I mean make and rm and the contents of /usr? All told they probably make up 1-2% of the marketplace. What is the current marketshare of Sun, DEC and HP's Unix offerings. Admittedly this is the financial plum of the marketplace, but a small portion. Do you expect Apple to be able to quickly grab a majority share against Sun, HP, and DEC, not to mention Win NT? You sure have high expectations for Rhapsody. Hopefully Apple will meet them. : If Apple can grab back the graphics professionals who are using : NT, they could probably add another .5%. If Apple can grab : webserver marketshare from WinNT, that might account for another : .5%. (This would likely be easier if Apple shipped Rhapsody : on Intel). That'd increase Mac marketshare by another 1%. Apple's market share was once 10%, without the Unix or webserver folks. Why can't they be that now without them? The fastest growing part of the market is the home where Apple's much better represented than average. Do you really think that battling it out with Sun, HP and DEC is the way to keep Apple alive? Are we just going to concede the vast majority of the market to Microsoft? Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:21:53 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <4msyuOu00iV0M52s5o@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54115 comp.sys.mac.system:193139 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181055 comp.sys.next.programmer:21855 In article <4msyuOu00iV0M52s5o@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger wrote: > I believe it is unfeasible to write sensible API's for every conceivable > Unix utility and to replace all of the expressive power of the shell. No one's talking about ridding ourselves of the shell as far as I can see. It would be that the shell is calling this libraries too. Before you say _that's_ infeasible, it's already running today in the form of MacPERL, which is OSA based and calls API directly out of the programs. So it's not only possible, but done for a shareware application no less. > There are roughly 1200 executables in my path; about 100 or so are > already available as functions via the BSD 4.3 system call API, which > leaves over a thousand left. Whereas the Mac OS probably already contains several thousand API calls. Again this is no argument as far as I can see. > I have no objection to people writing a good OO API to encapsulate the > functionality currently provided by popular tools like grep and find-- I > think it's a good idea. But people seem to think that simply providing > such an API means that the /bin/grep and /bin/find utilities aren't > needed anymore, and that claim makes no sense, for reasons that I've > explained in other articles. It doesn't mean they wouldn't be needed any more, the shell would simply call the new ones too. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!mindspring!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!audrey01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: chafi@aol.com (Chafi) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Immediate Openings for NextStep Programmer. Date: 21 Jan 1997 20:41:57 GMT Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Lines: 13 Message-ID: <19970121204101.PAA26927@ladder01.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder01.news.aol.com X-Admin: news@aol.com Hello We are currently looking for programers (three positions available) with excellent Nextstep background for a major telecom corporation located in IOWA. Long term contract positions, Salary and benifits as per experience. Contact: Amar Vakil or Stan Menezes (312) 930 9000 Send resumes on (312) 930 0510 E-mail : apsi@ix.netcom.com 01/21/97 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 21 Jan 1997 21:17:24 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 121 Message-ID: <5c3bp4$8s3@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0ptj$cvm@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21857 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54126 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181071 comp.sys.mac.system:193156 Blake Stone (bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca) wrote: : William Raphael Hix (raph@porter.as.utexas.edu) wrote: : Lastly, as you point out, these are both extreme cases and not : representative of the general case. Generalizing from extremes : does not tend to yield anything of value. For example, it would : be pointless to try to educate a person who already knows : everything, and equally pointless to try to educate a person who : cannot learn anything. Does this prove that education is : pointless? It is particularly difficult to argue from extremes when they aren't really opposites. A person who can not learn is not equivilent to a person who does not know anything. But this logical quibble aside, I did not intend to offer a concrete proof that Apple will ditch Unix compatibility. Instead I'm just trying to offer counter evidence to the assumption that Unix will be there. I hope it is, but Apple's vision for what Rhapsody will be and need to please third party software developers might result in disappointment to the Unix-friendly. : : > Well, how important is Unix compatibility? It's clear from : > this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. : : Only because a UNIX derivative is the underlying operating : system. If you get rid of it, you'll need to replace it with : another real operating system. Any suggestions? Windows NT? : Another UNIX? Or should Apple attempt to develop another : operating system from the ground up while ignoring their : dwindling share of the market? This I think is the compelling reason why much Unix compatibility will remain. It would take Apple time they don't have to rewrite the BSD middle layer which interfaces between OpenStep and the kernal in NeXTStep. But these arguments don't necessarily apply to a lot of Unix system utilities. : > But how much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple : > is pitching Rhapsody to? Would they rather have the system : > take up less space or have Unix compatibility 99% of them would : > never use. : : Replace that with "never knowingly use" and the answer becomes : obvious. 99% percent of the Mac users I know never invoke : NewHandle directly, so why not remove it from the API to save : disk space? If we're talking a few MB out of a system that adds up to 40-50, then you're right. But as the relative size creeps up over 10%, it gets harder to justify putting this in the system of all users. Perhaps they could have a "Unix Utilities" option in the OS installer for us workstation types. Or perhaps, some third party like Intercon will be able to sell us this add-on. : > The feelings of NeXT users (none of whom have compatible : > hardware) ... : > ... are secondary to the 10-100 times larger Mac community. : : Try to avoid making this an Us vs. Them thing. It would be : awfully nice to have a sense of community instead of a raging : war. Of course some NeXT users do not have hardware compatible : with the forthcoming Rhapsody. For that matter, a hell of a lot : of Mac users will not have compatible hardware, either. As much as I'd like for there to be harmony between Mac users (which I am at home) and current NeXT users (who I envy sitting at my Sun at work) the distinction is real because these 2 groups have different interests. How Apple will merge the interests of the techie NeXT users and the interests of the different pieces of its current user base is really what this whole thread is about. Hopefully, they can find a compromise which will make the Mac users happy without disillusioning the NeXT folks. However, at least in the near term, it is the Mac community which is the target of Rhapsody. Will any hardware which currently runs OpenStep run Rhapsody in its initial PPC version? I'm not talking the dream-like Intel compatible possibilities Apple hints at but does not promise, but PPC Rhapsody as it ships in 1998. It is the people who will be able to run Rhapsody in 98-99 for whom Apple will be tailoring the first version of Rhapsody. : The feelings of both are moot compared to the technical realities : of hosting the OPENSTEP API or a derivative thereof in a short : time frame. There is every reason in the world to believe that : the NeXT savvy are more likely to be in tune with these : realities than the Mac savvy, no matter how much larger the : latter group is. For someone who didn't want Us vs. Them, this sounds a little like platform bigotry to me. Markets matter when you want to sell things. As NeXT has shown, the set of NeXT savvy people can not support a major OS vendor, much less a producer of hardware. So Apple's target must be the larger group of users who want a modern OS with the Mac's ease of use and familiarity. Because of the time to market issue, I'd be very surprised if Apple completely removed the BSD middle layer. But the middle layer that Rhapsody ships with could be much more minimal than NeXT folks are accustomed to, without removing anything which will be missed by Apple's target audience. Hopefully it'd be easy to add the missing functionality back for those of us who want it. Of course that is my vision of Apple's target, which is different from most NeXT users, which is different from my mom's. Most importantly, it's probably different from Apple's but we won't know that for a year. : That being said, there sure are a lot of opinions being bandied : about as solid technical facts. Time will tell just exactly : where we're headed, and I'm eagerly awaiting the results. We're all trying to make our visions for the future come true by repeating them as loudly and often as possible. With the 6-12 months we have before there is something concrete to rail against, this is all we can do with our apprehension about the future of our platforms, both Mac and NeXT. Merging the 2 offers many wonderful possibilities, many of which will be disappointed, at least at first. But I think I'm going to like Rhapsody. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:24:19 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54129 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181075 comp.sys.mac.system:193159 comp.sys.next.programmer:21858 In article <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > Umm, this jars a little with the success of Linux... Linux seems to be used on about 1% of the machines in the world according to something I read once. Who knows if it's true, but it's running on one machine at work out of a couple hundred. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca!bstone From: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 21 Jan 1997 21:15:58 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5c3bme$kbu@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54131 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181077 comp.sys.mac.system:193161 comp.sys.next.programmer:21859 Andy Templeman (andy@amtmtc.demon.co.uk) wrote: > Macs have traditionally been touted as systems where you don't > need a system administrator. A lot of home users are not > C.S. savvy and want the new system to be as simple to install > and administer as system 7 is, with the advantages that a > protected & pre-emptive system can give. An out-of-the-box default installation of NeXTSTEP was fine for home use without needing weaking except when it cam to configuring it for Internet access. I expect that Apple will address the interface shortcomings in that area pronto and make it all as simple as it should be. What was REALLY cool, though, was that an out-of-the-box default installation was also fine for a corporate network. Just turn it on, watch it find the server and ... bingo! Automatically configured network connections, user accounts, shared printers, fax modems, the works. Take it to another location, plug it in, and watch it change personalities without any kind of local administration. Everything gets configured at the server level and is automatically picked up by workstations on the local net. You are going to love NetInfo (at least, when you don't hate it.) We had a zero-administration desktop environment running in our office years ago. A shame we had to rip it out and replace it with a Windows nightmare a year and a half later due to lack of supported office automation tools. I had DOS nightmares for weeks. Literally. I'd close my eyes to go to sleep and it would be waiting for me .... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blake W. Stone bstone@dkw.com Technical Director - DKW Systems "Art may imitate life, but life http://www.dkw.com/bstone imitates TV" - Ani Difranco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles W Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3 Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3633 comp.sys.next.programmer:21860 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11093 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 9-Jan-97 Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective.. by Anders Pytte@plainfield. > But the point I wish to raise is that for many programmers (including > myself) choice of language is not as important as programming habits and > code design. My mental model includes ideal implementations of all these > features, and my programming habits act as a sort of "precompiler" into > whatever language I am using. > > In this case, wouldn't it be better if the language I used matched my > mental model exactly? Perhaps, but depends on the costs (they work both > ways). Objective C may require of a project fewer lines of code and no > days housekeeping memory, but then the code object is larger and slower, > which is a significant concern in our case. What it is that you wish to retain from your previously developed code and your familiarity/programming habits? If you want to reuse the portable aspects of C or C++ code that you have around, no problem-- you can use legacy C and C++ code with Obj-C just fine. You really should learn about OOP (things like encapsulation, polymorphism, and inheritance) to take full advantage of the benefits of OPENSTEP's API, etc, but nothing prevents you from writing non-OOP code if that's how you want to solve a problem. As for the size and performance of Obj-C based applications, I would suggest trying it before worrying about problems that most people don't encounter. C++ advocates always seem to imply there is a big tradeoff here, but I cannot recall ever seeing a NEXTSTEP developer (someone who has actually released commercial software) state that the size and performance of Obj-C was a significant problem. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!gtnduss1.du.gtn.com!news.knipp.de!object-factory.com!usenet From: Erik Doernenburg Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Multiple threads and EOF2 Date: 21 Jan 1997 18:17:22 GMT Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany) Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5c317i$bes@leonie.object-factory.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wintermute.object-factory.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Hi! I am trying to convert a daemon that serves information merged from two databases to multiple clients. All DB access is read only, ie. the clients cannot alter the contents of the databases. This daemon instantiates a controller object for each client and runs each controller in a separate thread. This means, of course, that several database accesses can happen simultaneously. The daemon worked with EOF1x in such a way that new EODatabaseContext/Channel pairs were allocated in each thread and the fetch was performed via the channel's select/fetch methods. In EOF2 I obviously have to create more objects to perform a fetch (eg. an editing context) and I was wondering how much the threads can share. Do I need the whole set of EODatabaseContext, EODatabaseChannel, EOObjectStoreCoordinator and EOEditingContext for each thread, or is it possible that each thread has it's own editing context but these share one object store coordinator? And, if this peer configuration works, could it make use of multiple channels registered with the database context and perform fetches for different editing contexts in parallel? thanks in advance erik -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Erik Drnenburg OBJECT FACTORY Gesellschaft fr Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH http://www.object-factory.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 21 Jan 1997 21:49:29 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5c3dl9$ag5@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bsi7l$ecd@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21862 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54133 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181083 comp.sys.mac.system:193166 Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: : : The C compiler. Apple could very well leave that out.. wouldn't want : to give people a free alternative.. though I don't think that even the : GNU C compiler with Obj-C extensions will be able to link in CodeWarrior : object files or the OpenStep libraries, so I don't think they would gain : much by leaving it out; it's mostly useful for command-line stuff. And : leaving it out would be a big problem for Unix people, since most Unix : software is distributed in source form only (every Unix system comes : with a C compiler, except for some commercial implementations who have : discovered that they can charge extra for the compiler). And if Unix people were Apple's target for Rhapsody you'd be absolutely right, without cc it'd be almost useless. But Apple's current customer base, and the only people with machines capable of running Rhapsody when it is released, aren't Unix people. Mac users live in a world of shrink wrapped software, and will go to NT before they will compile applications themselves. If Rhapsody should ever need a C compiler as standard equipment, the game is over. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:02:01 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32E53CD9.5B7FB1D8@screaming.org> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54134 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181084 comp.sys.mac.system:193167 comp.sys.next.programmer:21863 Maury Markowitz wrote: > c) I think the whole system would work better with shared > libraries rather than forked command line utilties Sure, but what difference does it make if you can't tell that there's a pea under the bottom mattress? This issue is not pressing at all. NeXTstep makes excellent use of shared libraries, and forked CLI utils are rare. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:36:30 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 137 Message-ID: <32E536DE.3BBA@exnext.com> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <32E4DF05.7E8F@exnext.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21864 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54135 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181085 comp.sys.mac.system:193168 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32E4DF05.7E8F@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > > > No, it's really not. Apple needs to increase marketshare. Thus, it needs > > to sell to people who currently would run Solaris, NT, or linux. > > Apple already has a Unix to sell to these people. No one's buying it. > Selling another Unix doesn't seem to help them any, unless you have an > argument on why that I haven't seen. Apple has a crappy Unix, that doesn't have as nice an interface as NeXTSTEP, doesn't run Mac apps, and is aimed at servers. It's not user-friendly. You cannot compare AIX (or A/UX) to a Unix-based Rhapsody or even to NeXTSTEP. Apple's Unixen have *sucked*. > > And why is Unix's market share not growing? Because it doesn't > > have the general-purpose apps or ease-of use of, say, Windows NT. > > Rhapsody should provide both of these things. > > I agree, and again am left wondering how the hard to use Unix utilities > figure into your argument. It would appear to me that a Unix with these > replaced would do even better, no? No. Some people want these things. If Apple tries to sell some mangled Unix, nobody who wants *Unix* will buy it. A Unix site probably has lots of Unix scripts and utilities they've written and use every day. These would have to be rewritten or modified. Basically, using the new OS would be a giant pain in the ass for Unix users. Thus, the new OS would probably not be taken seriously, and few Unix sites would buy it. > > I also have to wonder what the Unix share would look like if > > Linux was included. > > From what I've seen in InformationWeek (I think, I was in Ireland at the > time), about 1% of the market is Linux. Not bad. About 16% of the Mac market. > > > > Oh yeah, and NeXT's superior technology will help a lot here. Just look > > > at how successful it was when they sold machines running it. > > > > This isn't about NeXT. This is about Apple, and the fact that Apple > > is losing marketshare. > > And it's about NeXT, because that's what Apple bought. NeXT was the > better Unix, and it didn't sell. Why should hosting it on the PMac do any > better? Because it'll run lots and lots of Mac applications that already exist. Because it's got the backing of a company with 1.8 billion in the bank to support it. Because it's no longer a freak OS, but instead has been 'blessed' by a major company in the industry. You might want to think about why NeXTSTEP didn't sell, before trying to apply those conditions to a NeXTSTEP-based MacOS. Most of the reasons NeXTSTEP didn't sell simply won't apply. > > > Apple's current Unix offerings are AIX. Which suffers from the same > > problems as other plain Unixes: no mass-market software, poor > > ease-of-use. > > And yet those other Unixen outsell it considerably. Although I agree > completely that the NeXT version is better than all of these put together > my point remains: Apple will not increase market share _because_ they have > a Unix. I disagree. Apple's Unixen have never been particularly stellar. Apple has never been a Unix company. Their Unix products have never been particularly well supported. Apple selling Unix has been like Yugo selling a luxury car. Radically different from their normal focus. I think Unix buyers knew this - Apple didn't appear to take Unix very seriously. Thus, they were less interested in buying Apple's unix. Why buy unix from someone when you *know* it's not going to be well supported? This has changed, since Unix-centric NeXT engineers are now developing the new OS. I think Unix shops may be more open to a Unix-based product if Apple can demonstrate that they are serious about it. > > Yeah. I know of two macs. They're sitting in a closet in Connecticut. > > But are Mac owners replacing their old Macs with new Macs, or PCs? It > > seems like the answer is PC's. > > Depends on who you read, but many (no, not most) people that are buying > Macs are buying their first Mac. This is not true of the industry in > general, where something to the effect of 90% (could be 80%) of Win > purchases are replacing current machines. > > > The point is that it may seem like very few people want Unix. But > > very few people want Macs. The Unix market may be small, but Apple > > cannot afford to turn away anything that could increase their > > marketshare. > > When you've only got 6%, even a .5% increase is worthwhile. > > Well I would agree with that for sure, but it would appear to me the > other 80% would be even better to go after. For the moment, Unix users are probably an easier target than Windows users. Especially if Apple gets in good with Sun - Sun shops would be able to deploy apps across Sun Solaris boxes and Apple Rhapsody boxes. This would be very nice, especially for shops that have secretaries using Solaris (they exist, I've seen one). The Unix market is probably an easier target because a) Unix vendors are already splintered and weak; b) Apple's chummy with Sun, and Sun would probably prefer to have its customers using Macs than Windows PC's on non-sparc desks. (lest those sparcs get replaced with Pentium Pros or Alphas running NT.) c) Apple could help Sun champion standard Java, which may aid Sun in their efforts against Microsoft's proprietary extensions. d) Microsoft can out-market Apple without breaking a sweat. Rhapsody could also become a nice alternative for small business types who want to run a webserver on Unix, but don't want to use Linux, and can't afford Sparcs. > > And if Apple doesn't grab that market, Microsoft will. > > I think they already did. True, to an extent. I'd bet the ex-Unix users wouldn't mind jumping back to a real Unix. Perhaps taking some other Windows users with them. (This would be much easier if Apple shipped Rhapsody on Intel.) -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!natinst.com!news-relay.us.dell.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:41:04 -0600 From: mark@oaai.com Subject: Re: GX vs. DPS Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <853295720.26750@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service References: X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jan 15 02:35:42 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 199.166.28.100 () X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/2.0 (compatible; MSIE 3.01; Windows NT) X-Authenticated-Sender: mark@oaai.com Lines: 43 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20298 comp.sys.next.programmer:21865 In article , "Scott Thompson" wrote: > If you wish to modify this example to make an argument in the GX vs. DPS > debate let's consider the following scenarios: > > 1. You want to draw the same shape in two different views that have > different magnifications. > > Using GX you have to create and set up the two view ports and establish a > link between the shape and the viewports. Then to do the actual drawing > takes one line of code (GXDrawShape) every time you want to draw the > figure. Drawing in the first view will tesselate the shape and cache off > the tesselated curve so that drawing in the second view is fast. > > To do it using DPS and the framework you have to create the two views and > set them up (just as in the GX space). Then to draw the shape you have to > execute the five lines of code you provided twice. Each time the code > sends values to the DPS interpreter which interprets them, re-tesselates > the curves and redraws them. Well actually if it was important to you to have it work just that extra bit quicker, you'd express the shape as a user path, and register that path with the server under a given name. Then to execute it within different views, you'd simply ask that the server stroke the server-cached path in each of the views. Please folks, if this were a gunfight then everyone would be shooting blanks. Just when you think you've pumped GX / DPS full of holes; lo - it still stands! We've all got a lot of learning to do in coming months. Regards, Mark --- M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc. Software Systems for the U.S. and Canadian Financial Industries. 15 La Rose Ave. Suite 702, Toronto Ontario M9P 1A7 (416)241-3076 -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:10:06 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32E53EBE.1DC04812@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21866 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54136 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181088 comp.sys.mac.system:193172 Maury Markowitz wrote: > (Travis Butler) wrote: > > > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS > > without *forcing* users to deal with these things, so they > > wouldn't need to see or use them unless they really *wanted* > > to, then I wouldn't mind. But what I saw of NeXTstep a few > > years ago didn't work that way, and the comments I've seen > > here suggest that it hasn't changed in this respect. > > Worse, when you suggest that you don't want to run all these > great shell utilities, they simply can't figure out why not. Even worse, when you suggest that you can keep UNIX without sacrificing useability, people suggest that the resulting system would still, somehow, be sullied by its presence -- regardless of how invisible it is. Of course, I know that you've never had such thoughts, Maury. I'm talking about other thick individuals. [followups trimmed back to advocacy groups] -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:13:01 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c16dv$586@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21867 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181097 comp.sys.mac.system:193176 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54141 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> I don't understand this. How could it be more cross-platform by removing >> compatibility with one of two major platforms outside the MacOS? > > Because none of the other platforms have the same utilities installed by > default? Quick, where is find on my NT box? /usr/NextDeveloper/bin/find I believe is the standard location when you have NeXT's development tools installed. Besides, which other platforms are you talking about besides NT? Last time I checked, OpenStep on top of Unix was available for pretty much every hardware platform available nowadays. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!noos.hooked.net!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!deniseh From: deniseh@nntp.best.com (Denise Howard) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Remote cvs and .nib wrappers Date: 21 Jan 1997 22:34:20 GMT Lines: 23 Distribution: comp Message-ID: <5c3g9c$m2n@nntp1.best.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: shellx.best.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Scott Hess (shess@one.net) wrote: : I've been exploring the remote features of cvs. Unfortunately, it : seems that remote cvs doesn't work in combination with wrappers, so : cvs can't handle .nib files in the repository. Has anyone gotten that : working? Art Isbell (aisbell@cubicsol.com) wrote a couple of items that will help you. I don't have them myself anymore since I no longer use CVS at work, but what they'll do is tar and compress the nib, so that you can then check the result into CVS like any other file. There was a tweak he made to the Makefile.preamble and Makefile.postamble, too, I think. Alternatively, you could look into buying DevMan. We use it every day at Filoli; with >30 developers all chugging on files, it's an absolute necessity for change control! It handles nibs and rtf files without a second thought, too. Denise -- Denise Howard | PROGRAM, tr. v., An activity similar to Mountain View, CA | banging one's head against a wall, but deniseh@best.com | with fewer opportunities for reward. NeXTMail welcome! | http://www.best.com/~deniseh #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!news From: Michael Taylor Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:50:10 -0500 Organization: Alias|Wavefront Lines: 31 Message-ID: <32E54822.4DAA@aw.sgi.com> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <32E4DF05.7E8F@exnext.com> <32E536DE.3BBA@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.tor.aw.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; IRIX 6.2 IP22) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21869 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54146 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181103 comp.sys.mac.system:193182 Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > For the moment, Unix users are probably an easier target than Windows > users. Especially if Apple gets in good with Sun - Sun shops would > be able to deploy apps across Sun Solaris boxes and Apple Rhapsody > boxes. This would be very nice, especially for shops that have > secretaries using Solaris (they exist, I've seen one). > I agree with your nice (or scathing:) summary. It's interesting to note that Sun already owns most of the commercial software that has been written for OpenStep (databases, spreadsheets, word processors, etc.) through their subsidiary Lighthouse Software. see http://www.lighthouse.com The early adopters of Rhapsody will be looking to Lighthouse and Sun for productivity software. Much of this software is pretty cool even if it will lack some of the features of monstrosities such as Microsoft office. Apple and NeXT are both driving hard on hard on Java, which should make Sun happy. /\/\ike -- /\/\ike Taylor | Mail: mtaylor@aw.sgi.com Alias|Wavefront Toronto | Voice: (416) 362-8558 x8740 Developer, API Team =D--' http://reality.sgi.com/mtaylor #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:33:21 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 131 Message-ID: <32E54431.29AA@exnext.com> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c38ii$5ol@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21870 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54147 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181105 comp.sys.mac.system:193192 William Raphael Hix wrote: > > Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@exnext.com) wrote: > : > : Actually, Apple should let all those people who want Unix hang. Who > : cares if they buy Solaris, or Windows NT, or run linux on a cheap > : Pentium? Who needs em. > Obviously Apple wants as many new customers as they can get, but that > takes time. For Apple to survive they need to enhance their current > strenghs and then reach out to new areas. Protected memory, pre-emptive > multitasking, and a high performance file system are important to > all high performance computing tasks, content and application development, > data and image processing. Unix compatibility is much less important. > Apple will need to consider the trade offs and make a decision based on > where it wants to compete. There are no trade offs. Only unjustified fears. > > : Apple doesn't need new markets, right? Their current markets are doing > : *just fine*. They're doing just fine on their own. Selling to them home > : users, schools, and artists. > : > : Oh, that's right. Apple's marketshare is dwindling. Apple's > : traditional markets are moving to Windows. Schools, homes, graphics > : professionals. Evidently, Apple must not be selling what people want > : anymore. Apple isn't even holding on to their *current* customers. > : I think Apple should spend some time to find out exactly what > : users want. *Not* current Mac users. Former Mac users. Mac users > : who have left the Mac for NT, Solaris, Linux, IRIX, whatever. > : Obviously, Apple can't grow their marketshare selling to current > : Mac owners. Apple has to design Rhapsody for former Mac owners. > : Then they have to make it clear that Rhapsody is what they really > : wanted, and that they should come back. An Intel port of Rhapsody > : would make this easier. > > Most of Apple's losses are to Win95 and, to a lesser extent, Win NT, > users who have demonstrated little interest in Unix compatibility. Even > when Apple had a Unix, A-UX, it drew little support outside of academia. > Apple needs to compete against Microsoft and this requires little > Unix compatibility. As a workstation user, I'd love to see Rhapsody > have as much Unix compatibility as possible. I'm not sure Apple will > agree with me. A/UX wasn't a serious Unix. It wasn't supported very well, and wasn't terribly well integrated. The question is this: If Unix is included in a user-friendly manner, does it open new markets for Macintoshes? The answer is yes. Does Apple need new MacOS customers? Yes. Is there any reason why Unix should taint MacOS into something unfriendly, complex, and hard-to-use for traditional Mac users? None whatsoever. What does Apple have to lose by including Unix? Nothing. > : Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully > : sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% > : marketshare. A 16% increase in Mac marketshare. Furthermore, it's > : an increase, which Apple hasn't seen in many moons. > > Exactly what percentage of users do you think want Unix compatibility? > I don't mean the features of a modern OS, I mean make and rm and the > contents of /usr? All told they probably make up 1-2% of the marketplace. > What is the current marketshare of Sun, DEC and HP's Unix offerings. > Admittedly this is the financial plum of the marketplace, but a small > portion. Do you expect Apple to be able to quickly grab a majority share > against Sun, HP, and DEC, not to mention Win NT? You sure have high > expectations for Rhapsody. Hopefully Apple will meet them. The Unix market is easier to crack than the Windows market. The Unix vendors are already fragmented, and Unix users are already drifting to Windows. It's also an enterprise market which is less prone to choosing a hardware platform according to how much software is available for it at Egghead. > : If Apple can grab back the graphics professionals who are using > : NT, they could probably add another .5%. If Apple can grab > : webserver marketshare from WinNT, that might account for another > : .5%. (This would likely be easier if Apple shipped Rhapsody > : on Intel). That'd increase Mac marketshare by another 1%. > > Apple's market share was once 10%, without the Unix or webserver folks. > Why can't they be that now without them? The fastest growing part of > the market is the home where Apple's much better represented than average. > Do you really think that battling it out with Sun, HP and DEC is the way > to keep Apple alive? Are we just going to concede the vast majority of > the market to Microsoft? Apple has an uphill battle ahead of them if they want to gain home marketshare. Microsoft has more mindshare. You can't freakin' swing a cat without hitting something with a Microsoft logo on it. For Apple to counteract this would require huge expenditures. They'd probably have to start paying CompUSA and others large amounts of money to give Macs a decent presence. Of course, CompUSA would probably just go to Microsoft, ask for more, and ignore Apple. Apple has to choose the battles they can win. I'm not convinced that Apple can win the home computer OS battle at this point. It would be better for Apple to pick up some wins on other battlefields (graphics, web, enterprise) first, then use those successes to gain home buyers. Get people to use it at work, and buy it for home because it's so much cooler. It's much easier to experience the advantages of a Mac in an 8-hour workday, than at a brief, half-hearted computer store demo. Apple should try to improve its visbility and marketing for home users. I don't think they should bet the farm on it, though. For the immediate future, Apple's marketing money would be better spent persuading developers to port their Windows-only children's applications to Macs. Co-marketing funds, developer subsidies, whatever. A big home computing marketing push would be a waste if there are significant applications that aren't available for the Mac. All it would take to blow a sale is one "Does it run ?" "No.". -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:05:01 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 108 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54159 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181116 comp.sys.mac.system:193197 comp.sys.next.programmer:21871 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > Which portion do you not understand: > > a) it's easier to have API's than use streams? That is simply not true for every problem. > b) if you're in an OOPS paradigm you'd like to stay there? Again, OO programming is one paradigm out of many. It is not always the best solution to every possible problem, although it is very good for a lot of problems. > c) if you use system() you're not cross platform? I can use fork()/exec() (which is more controllable in terms of handling stdin, stdout, etc that system()) on every POSIX-compliant operating system and every Unix system around. Such code is portable to more operating system/hardware plaform combinations than any other system call API that is available today. How is this not cross-platform? > d) shared libs run in the application's space, thus requiring less demands > of the OS to be nicely MT? Unix systems aren't bothered by fork()ing and preemptively multitasking at the process level. In fact, they often do a better job of blocking I/O and asyncronous activities like networking than a single process which is multithreaded, and such designs are often more robust and offer higher performance. You do realize that the fastest and most efficient web servers are written by preforking child servers-- such a design beats a multithreaded web server in pretty much every regard. > I mean, what is so terribly difficult to grasp about any of these points? Nothing-- it's not terribly difficult at all. Why don't you understand that almost every single point you've made in several articles, including this one, have been wrong? >> Compared to everything else in Openstep/Mach, the unix things like /bin, >> etc, are rather small. Ripping them out wont get you much in the way of >> disk space nor anything else, and it will only cost you in functionality >> and flexability. > > No one has _ever_ advocated their complete removal. The other posts and > my own have suggested making OOPS based versions of the same thing. I > have mentioned this in every letter I've posted for the last three days, > how can everyone continue to miss this point? Because it conflicts with your own words: 'I don't think this will mangle it at all. Quite the opposite in some cases. If you want the shell utilities, click Custom Install, click "Unix utilities". End of issue.' If the Unix CLI utilities are not shipped as a core element of the operating system with _every_ copy of Rhapsody, then they will not available on _some_ Rhapsody systems. Software currently available for Unix, including essentials such as the system boot procedure (/etc/rc and friends) and networking and email (machd, netinfod, nfsd, sendmail, telnet, ftp, etc) depends on those CLI utilities. That in turn means that one would have to scrap going with a normal Unix boot and write some custom design for booting the system. This means that pretty much all of the current NeXT sysadmin software will no longer work, and neither will any of the current networking functionality. The means that Rhapsody will not be compatible with other Unix operating systems. Do you understand? If you make Unix optional, Rhapsody will no longer be Unix-compatible because you would have to replace the current Unix functionality with something else that is not optional-- this is the case with OpenStep on NT. Doing constitutes "ripping out Unix", since the operating system would no longer be a Unix operating system. And guess what? Apple bought NeXT because "Apple needed a truly modern operating system and NeXT had an exceptional operating system with modern services and API's." That operating system is based off of Mach, BSD 4.x Unix, GNU developer tools (with gcc at the top of the list as being the most sophisticated cross-platform compiler written to date), NEXTSTEP's GUI and tools, NEXTSTEP's networking and system administration functionality, the reference implementation of the OpenStep API, and related tools/APIs such as EOF and WebObjects. These components are highly integrated at the lower levels-- OpenStep is the only part that's truly OS-independent. Removing Unix means that you would have to re-write everything from the developer tools to the sysadmin tools to the networking software to the way the system boots. All of this to save $3 worth of disk space? -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!iway.fr!news1.isdnet.net!tupelo!news From: Michel Coste Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 23:18:28 GMT Organization: MiCMAC Lines: 256 Message-ID: References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: mic@micmac.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp53.mon.hol.fr X-Nntp-Posting-Host: tupelo Cc: rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54164 comp.sys.next.programmer:21872 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181121 comp.sys.mac.system:193198 In <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> Robert F Tobler wrote: > > > PROPOSAL: > How to modify the Workspace manager to behave like the Finder I think this is a ridiculous idea. "Modify the Workspace manager to behave like the Finder" Ha ha ha! [I don't want to put you down Robert. I see perfectly your purpose and your analysis is quite good. But I think you didn't see how incidentally what you wrote could be sadly funny...] I remember when NeXT came out , ALL mac users were trying modify the Finder to mimic NeXT!!! What a WASTE you suggest! The Workspace is much more sophisticated than the Finder. To say the least what you suggest is a retrogradation... As a long time Macintosh user (Mac enthousiast and user since 1984) with maybe more than 10 000 hours and as a more recent convert to NeXT (enthousiast since 1988 and user since 1991!) I know perfectly the two environments and can compare them. > > Currently the Nextstep Workspace manager presents one or more windows called > "File Viewers" to the user, that consist of three parts: Right! > > * The shelf: This is a place to store commonly accessed files and > directories in a way similar to aliases on the Desktop of the > Macintosh. Yes it's like the desktop. But much better than aliases it deals with representations of the files... There is no need for a hidden "desktop folder" that contains these aliases (most finish to be orphaned sooner or later in my experience...) or worst real files! So the shelf does everything that the desktop does but it's a MUCH SUPERIOR metaphor! I thank everyday Jean-Marie Hullot for it's invention! > > * The icon path: This displays the location of the selected file by > showing the complete path from the root of the main disk to the > file, in the form of an icon sequence containing each directory. It's beautiful. When you clic once on every file/folder that you put on the shelf you see the icons of the complete path. The file could be on the other side of the world, it works the same. I thank everyday Jean-Marie Hullot for it's invention! > > * The browser: This part of the viewer can be used in three different > modes, one of them is the mode which shoes the contents of each > directory in the icon path as a column, the second one shows the > icon of each file in the current directory, and the third one shows > a list of all files in the current directory with all the additional > fields like owner, creation date, aso. Wrong! The third part is the View. One can choose between three Views: the more ancient style of the "Listing" (UNIX style of informations), the more recent style of the "Icons" (Macintosh style of information) and the actual style of the "Browser" (NeXT style of information, the more adapted to network navigation). In resume these three styles belong to the three more important periods of the computing history... I assume you talk from now on of the Browser View. > > Double-clicking a directory will show the directory in the current file > viewer without opening a new window. No need to double-clic... Select a directory in the Shelf (=desktop) or in the Browser will show it's content in the next column (and in the Path where you can make direct manipulation like on the Macintosh). > The Workspace manager supports the > functionality of opening a directory in a new file viewer window, if the user > wants it (using a Menu, a command shortcut Cmd-Shift-O, or Alt-Double-Click). > It also stores the mode of the browser in each directory that was opend with > its own file viewer window. It's very useful! Though I do most of my work in the main File Viewer, I sometimes open new ones this way to work on particular things. Since they are remembered it's very convenient (I have Files Viewers for my html work, for ftp, etc...) All in all I have much less windows on my NeXT than on my Mac! (On my Mac I have as many windows as there are windows = an infinity!) The File Viewer is a much sophisticated mecanism than the classic window. It's a weapon against the clutter made by these windows... > > In order to change the Workspace manager to behave like the finder, a small > number of changes are necessary: > > * Make it possible for a file viewer to contain only the shelf, or only > the browser. This should be user selectable. I don't see the advantage! If you want a bigger shelf/desktop you can open a File Viewer as large as the screen. BUT this is useless. I mean the desktop is not needed as much on the NeXT than on the Mac. On my Mac I'm perfectly happy with two or three File Viewer with big enough shelves. On my Mac I have a cluttered desktop! Why? Because the desktop on the Mac serves two main functions: - The useful one: put important files/folders and Drag & Drop Apps. I for one (like many I think!) put an alias of my System Folder at the bottom left of my screen. It makes installation of Control Panels and the like a breeze! On the NeXT there's no equivalent of the system Folder and Control Panels, so there's no use! Then I have an alias of ResEdit (a necessity for me since 1985!). On the NeXT there's no need of a ResEdit since you can open directly the equivalent of resources (text and tiff files). Then I have an alias to Save a Bundle since it's often needed... (On NeXT no equivalent is needed!). Then I have an alias to Shrinkwrap (On the NeXT it's a long time we don't manipulate diskettes anymore!). Then, Stuffit Expander alias. (On the NeXT decompression can be automatically and transparently made: I use Opener.app for that). And so on. You get the idea: under NeXTstep there is no need for drag & drop applications... I would like to say here that I think the concept of Services on the NeXT is superior since no waste of real estate is needed... I have then important folders like on my NeXT. - A rubbish dump: the desktop is often used to put the files we don't know where to put! Temporary files that we saved here because it's convenient to find them there later to trash them... New files waiting to be classified in the right place... > > * Add to the icon mode of the browser, Why not (optionally!)? That's a good idea. I only hope there's no penalisation when you open a directory with 1000 files! > the functionality to > (optionally) store the location of each icon in each directory. You mean by Icon View? No problem! It's really possible to add the possibility of a View by Icons with mess (no grid!)... > > * Add the option to always create a new "File Viewer" window for each > directory that is double-clicked. A very minor advantage. that could allow new users to make a clutter very quickly... so they could feel "at home"... Remember the File Viewer is not a "classic" window! > > * Add to the shelf the functionality of arbitrary icon placement; > currently icons can only be placed in a grid. Freedom Freedom!!!! I'm an anarchist myself (sort of...) but I don't see the advantages of putting the chaos there... But it's not a big deal. > > > Using these three features, the Next Finder can be implemented this way: > > * Make a shelf-only window that has the size of the screen and resides > below all other windows. This will be the Next Apple Desktop. Completely useless!!! The great thing with NeXTstep is that the files in the shelf are connected to a view! And remember there's no more need to drag & drop! Or maybe you presume that some Mac users are addicts to their drag & drop habits... > > * Set the defaults of the Next Finder to always create a new "Viewer" > at each double click, and to be in icon mode per default. You already said that! And the Icon View is already by default in the actual installation of NeXTstep. (I always thought it was a weakness from NeXT side!) > > Using these defaults there are some differences to the original Macintosh > Finder, e.g. the Desktop contains only "aliases", never real files. You see some advantages to aliases and real files in this case??????? I don't get it!!! > But I > think the overall user experience in such a customizable Next Finder, could > be made very close to the current Finder, so that Macintosh users will still > be able to efficiently use the Next Apple OS with only *very little* changes > to their accusomed habits. This proposal makes the user interface changes > from the current Finder to the Next Findersmall enough to be even less than > the changes made from system 6.x to system 7.0. > You said it: the only advantages to these changes would be to take care of Mac users habits, not for functionality... Now I think it's time for a more radical change! Remember there were some Apple II users that never accepted the Macintosh! Should have Steve Jobs managed them so the Mac interface would have been acceptable by them???? Sure not! Happily we had something completely different. The actual process is exactly the same... It happens that Steve Jobs is in charge of the supervision of the new system. So I'm confident he will not break the wonderful NeXT interface! (...) > Comments are welcome. I made some... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 > Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at > Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ > > -- mc _________________________________________________________ Michel Coste MiCMAC - Online Publishing < http://www.micmac.com> _________________________________________________________ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!news.uth.tmc.edu!news.msn.com!ratatosk!drg From: REMOVE.TO.REPLY.drg@biomath.mdacc.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 23:40:58 -0500 Organization: Univ. Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: bmrip01.mdacc.tmc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-No-Archive: Yes X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21873 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54165 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181122 comp.sys.mac.system:193199 In article , bononno@acf2.nyu.edu (Robert Bononno) wrote: > In article , > ibhan@student.med.harvard.edu (Ishir Bhan) wrote: > > >Rhapsody is supposed to be released at the same time as 7.8. That is, one > >year from now. The developer release will preceed it by several months > >(possibly as soon as 6). > > That's not what I read. It is, nevertheless, correct - according to presentations given at MacWorld last week. -- David Gutierrez drg@biomath.mdacc.tmc.edu "Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!rex From: rex@mit.edu (Eric King) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: DPS Hit Detection Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:56:13 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 87 Message-ID: References: <5bg2e0$ar2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32DBDD3C.1EBAB5AF@screaming.org> <5bh10q$c1s@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: phi-pa9-50.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jan 14 9:44:39 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21874 comp.sys.mac.misc:132518 comp.sys.mac.system:193201 In article <5bh10q$c1s@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: )> infill and inneofill -- returns true if any portion of the point )> along the user path passed as an argument lies in the )> region painted by fill or eofill of the current path )> )> instroke -- returns true if any portion of the point or user )> path lies in the region painted by a stroke of the current )> path. )> )> The three following operators are similar except they use a )> user path instead of the current path: )> inufill, inueofill, inustroke )> Thanks for the info, unfortunately this is still requires quite a bit more work than the GXHitTest**** family of functions. Boolean hittesting is useful, but its nowhere near as useful as being able to hit test a graphic structure and then given the object or objects that were hit. It looks as if I'd have to implement several layers of abstraction on top of the PS code defining the appearance of my widget. Ultimately what I want and what GX provides are hierarchical container shapes that know which part of them has been hit (with adjustable tolerance and depth :)) and which object in my app that part is associated with. This is a true time saver. )In addition to the straight PostScript operators, the Purple book (which IMHO )will probably be a required read for many Mac developers, especially if )they're considering graphics-based apps: Not if I can help it. :) The more I learn, the more I *really* hope Apple keeps GX around. )I wanted to draw attention to an easily-missed paragraph on p140, which notes )that it is possible to do hit detection without using the DPS operators. In )general, assuming your mouse point and your drawn object are rectangles (or )you can consider a bounding box around the drawn object), you can do hit )detection using NXIntersectsRect (I presume there is an OpenStep )equivalent?!) to first find whether the mouse point lies within the bounding )box prior to doing any more "expensive" checks. GX does this automatically, i.e. if you hit test a shape, it'll scan the bounding rects of the subshapes until it hits an intersection, from there it'll scan the bounding rects of any subshapes in that shape, and continue on down through the hierarchy until it hits a primitive or until you reach a specified depth. Once it hits a primitive it'll hit test any parts of that primitive like starting or end caps, and then relay references to the shape that was hit and what part of the shape that was hit. (if applicable.) If its told to stop at a certain depth then it'll just return the picture or other container shape at that depth. The cool thing is that one can store actual objects in the shapes and just extract the appropriate tag from the returned shape and call say a 'DoClick' method. e.g. something like: theHitShape = GXHitTestPicture(myWidget, thePoint, &myHitTestInfo, 1 ,1); if (theHitShape != null) { tagsfound = GXGetShapeTags(theHitShape, myTagType, 1, 1, &myTagRef); if (tagsfound) { GXGetTag(myTagRef, myTagType, &myTag); myTag.doClick; } } Another handy feature is the ability to change the hit test parameters of each shape individually because that info's stored in a shape's transform object. By the same token since the parameters are in a transform *object*, they can be shared among shapes. So if you wanted to do something like disable hittesting for a bunch of shapes on the screen, you could just change one shared transform object and they'd all be affected. )I mentioned elsewhere an application I wrote which commonly had 4000+ items )in a window (View); if I remember rightly, checking which representations )intersected the mouse point saved a *lot* of time. Now what was it that us GX developers were saying about DPS performance... 8) Out of continuing curiosity do any of the DPS hit test operators offer adjustable tolerances, i.e. if I click within a few points of an object will it still register as a hit or will I have to compute the intersection of a bounding circle and the object I wish to test against? -Eric -- Excerpt from Marianne Moore's 'The Pangolin' This near artichoke with head and legs and grit-equipped gizzard, the night miniature artist engineer is, yes, Leonardo da Vinci's replica- impressive animal and toiler for whom we seldom hear. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:25:17 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 86 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181134 comp.sys.mac.system:193207 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54170 comp.sys.next.programmer:21875 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> The point is, regardless of what it's called or whether it's just one or >> several libraries-- there is no point at all of creating tens of >> thousands of system calls to replace the Unix command line utilities > > There are "tens of thousands" of command line utilities? There are 1200 or so command line utilities in my path. Most of them have a much more complicated behavior than the basic commands like cp, mv, rm, and so forth-- those generally don't do much besides parse the command line and execute the appropriate system call. > And there's lots of reasons to do this. > > > unless that mammoth API is available on all of the hardware/operating > > This "mammoth" API is exactly as large as the current one. In fact, good > design would allow it to be much smaller in fact (combine content and > directory searching operations inside a single query object for > instance). However, unlike the current API, it's language neutral, > platform neutral, OOPS based and publishes its own interface. It also > would allow for direct calls to the API using objects so you don't have to > flatten your objects, and will pass back data or exceptions in the same > way. That API doesn't exist right now. Apple does not have the time to create such an API. I also question whether they can duplicate all of the functionality without having to undergo years of user feedback and debugging-- and Unix has undergone decades worth of testing. > Really now, the advantages are both obvious and huge. If they weren't, > why did they create OpenStep in the first place? OpenStep is another evolutionary step along the road towards the great Mecca in which good programs and reliable operating systems are available to all computer users. The existance of OpenStep does not mean that Rhapsody can dump the Unix CLI utilities without breaking far too many things (as I've explained in previous articles). Once again, the Unix utilities cannot be an optional part of Rhapsody without Apple having to replace that functionality with something else. >> system combinations that you're replacing the Unix CLI utilities, >> otherwise programmers won't be able to depend on all of the API being >> available, which would make it far less useful. > > The _current_ code is not available on all platforms, OpenStep for NT > for instance. This not only makes this argument moot, but provides even > more ammo for replacing it. NT provides a POSIX-compliant environment, does it not? POSIX, or S/VID, or one of those standards defines POSIX-compliant command-line utilities which are precisely the ones shipped with modern Unices (and are largely backwards-compatible with the BSD 4.3 utilities). >> Besides which, why don't you try to estimate the number of >> developer-years such a task would require? > > Two? Which utility in particular do you think is hard to recreate? make, sh, perl, diff, awk, sed, lex, yacc, grep, tar, cc, ld, as, emacs, gdb? Or what about system daemons like inetd, sendmail, netinfod, telnetd, ftpd? >>> Code reuse: it's a good idea. >> >> Again, writing a new library which provides functionality already >> implemented by Unix command-line tools is the precise opposite of code >> reuse. > > Only if you consider the case when you're running on Unix. This is not > the only case. Available evidence suggests that a lot of people implement popular Unix tools like make, sh, diff, and so forth for non-Unix operating systems since those tools are especially useful for developers and administrators because they provide a large amount of functionality. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:46:06 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 107 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:193208 comp.sys.next.programmer:21876 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181135 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54171 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> "Calls the OOPS libs" how? > > With a program. You know, those funky "API" things. What kind of program? A precompiled executable in the architechtures' machine language, or an interpreted program which requires an interpreter (ie, /bin/sh) and commands (ie, /bin/mount, /bin/find, /bin/grep, /etc/inetd, /usr/lib/sendmail, etc). >> Are you talking about having the system boot using a precompiled >> executable? > > No, I'm talking about having a OOPS shared library of some form on the > disk, rather than a CLI executable program that you fork off. That's it. What type of program calls the OOPS shared library? >> If so, remember that we already went through the reasoning >> why that's not as good as having the system boot be configurable via an >> interpreted shell. > > And it still could be. Is this really so strange? I am truly baffled > at the number of questions I'm getting about this that seem to be confused > about what I am suggesting. @Begin(Sarcasm) { Gee-- lots of people disagree with Maury, therefore they must all be confused and not understand what I mean. It couldn't possibly be the case that Maury is wrong.... } @End(Sarcasm) [ ... ] >> Who cares whether the current average Mac user would want them or not > > Riiiiight. In fact, let's install NT on their drives too. VMS while > we're at it. > > Have you heard of the term "distributed costs"? Yes. I suspect I understand them better than you do. What is the largest number of computers that you've had responsibility to administer? Furthermore, the difference in distributed costs would be the difference between the 15 MB or so for the Unix utilities if they are not optional, and however much space whatever your alternative is consumes. >> so long as the ability to run those applications has no negative >> implications to that Mac user besides $3 worth of disk space? > > Do you mean aside from the fact that code written to use them is thus > not portable by definition? No-- code written to use the Unix CLI utilities would be portable to all users of Rhapsody, assuming that Unix is not optional. That would not cause any portability problems for that Mac user, whereas the lack of the Unix CLI utilities would cause huge portability problems with Unix software because not every Rhapsody systems would be Unix-compatible. >> Rhapsody has the potential to sell to a large number of markets that >> Apple has never been successful in before-- such as corporate MCCA, >> Internet/Intranet usage, the server market, web technology, the >> important areas of higher education (ie, graduate CS/IS/Math programs >> :-), and so forth. Basicly, Rhapsody will cover all of the areas where >> Unix is popular, and hopefully will also make inroads into the normal >> business environment which is currently dominated by Microsoft Windows. > > Great, so have a check box in Custom Install that states "Install Unix > shell utilities" and you can do all of this? This is getting really > repetitive. Yes, it is. Rhapsody can either be Unix-compatible, or it can have Unix-compatibility as an optional add-on, which would mean that Rhapsody would have to have some non-optional replacement for the Unix utilities which would mean that some Rhapsody systems are guaranteed to not be Unix-compatible (because they didn't have the optional add-on installed). >> Assuming, of course, that Apple doesn't do anything _completely_ >> braindamaged-- which is the only description I have for the suggestion >> of ripping Unix out of Rhapsody. > > Who said anything about ripping Unix out of Rhapsody?!? READ THE THREAD! You did! Making Unix an optional part of Rhapsody means that Apple has to rip Unix out of Rhapsody and replace it with some non-optional alternative that provides similar functionality. Your operating system won't do anything if it can't boot, and Unix systems can't boot without the Unix CLI utilities. What part of that don't you understand? -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: 21 Jan 1997 01:49:05 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <32E44F5F.6C31@exnext.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.144 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan W. Hendry said: >Lawson English wrote: >> >> Erik M. Buck >> >> said: >> >> >A direct to screen API does exist for NeXTstep but it is not portable for >> >obvious reasons to other OpenStep/Hardware combinations. >> > >> >> That is very strange. The Mac has always allowed direct-drawing to the >> video buffer via an API that is consistent with all video hardware that >> works on the Mac, regardless of who makes it. > >"Regardless of who makes it"??? > >Pfft. As if the differences between Apple Macs and PowerComputing Macs >are even remotely as large as the differences between NeXT's, Intel >boxes with arbitrary video cards, HP workstations, and Sparcs. Not >friggin' likely. > >Or are you talking about monitors? Arbitrary video cards that work with Macs. As the man said in the article about Game Sprockets, Apple has a video API that supports direct-drawing, etc., for any Mac-compliant Plug-and-play video card, regardless of who makes it, regardless of VRAM size, shape, depth, acceleration, etc. Now, if the manufacturer doesn't provide a P'n'P driver for a specific video mode, the API doesn't work, but for P'n'P PCI cards and Mac NuBus cards, the old-style "raw" video API always works (allowing for bugs and non-compliance). The Game Sprocket API is supposed to be much (MUCH) easier to use, although I haven't had a need to delve into it (my last direct-to-screen stuff was done about 2 years ago for LC II-class machines using a PowerMac 7100/66 for the prototyping, and Game Sprockets wasn't even available back then, if memory serves). ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Windows: Tumor-causing, teeth-staining, smelly, puking habit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 00:42:26 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3 Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 68 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news-out.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port5.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3634 comp.sys.next.programmer:21878 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11096 In article , Charles W Swiger wrote: > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 9-Jan-97 Re: Mult. Inh. > in Objective.. by Anders Pytte@plainfield. > > But the point I wish to raise is that for many programmers (including > > myself) choice of language is not as important as programming habits and > > code design. My mental model includes ideal implementations of all these > > features, and my programming habits act as a sort of "precompiler" into > > whatever language I am using. > > > > In this case, wouldn't it be better if the language I used matched my > > mental model exactly? Perhaps, but depends on the costs (they work both > > ways). Objective C may require of a project fewer lines of code and no > > days housekeeping memory, but then the code object is larger and slower, > > which is a significant concern in our case. > > What it is that you wish to retain from your previously developed code > and your familiarity/programming habits? If you want to reuse the > portable aspects of C or C++ code that you have around, no problem-- you > can use legacy C and C++ code with Obj-C just fine. > > You really should learn about OOP (things like encapsulation, > polymorphism, and inheritance) to take full advantage of the benefits of > OPENSTEP's API, etc, but nothing prevents you from writing non-OOP code > if that's how you want to solve a problem. > > As for the size and performance of Obj-C based applications, I would > suggest trying it before worrying about problems that most people don't > encounter. C++ advocates always seem to imply there is a big tradeoff > here, but I cannot recall ever seeing a NEXTSTEP developer (someone who > has actually released commercial software) state that the size and > performance of Obj-C was a significant problem. > Chuck, Thanks for the info - I admit I am unsure of the size and performance advantage of C++, since I have not done comparisons. But you have misunderstood my intent. I have nothing at all against Obj-C, in fact, I am excited by it. I did not mean that I feared giving up programming habits, rather that I am accustomed to compensating for shortcomings of languages through good design and good programming habits. I would need to do the same with Obj-C due to its lack of explicit multiple inheritance, operator overloading, etc. (am I correct here about Obj-C?). And I don't want to hear any more bullshit about my being better off without those features - when correctly used they enhance code design. My point is that choice of language is not as important as good programming habits and good code design. Each language has its die-hard advocates, ofcourse. But I expect that many like myself take the following pragmatic view: 1. I want my current (huge) code base supported (atleast for a while). 2. I will use whatever language has the best support and most promise for a given platform (or especially for multiple platforms). If Apple blesses Obj-C, and I can use it (efficiently) to advance our existing products and port them to other platforms, then i will bless Obj-C too. Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:09:20 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54181 comp.sys.mac.system:193227 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181147 comp.sys.next.programmer:21879 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> Removing functionality cannot _possibly_ make programming easier. > > And there is is again, a clear indication that you have either not read > the posts, or are incapable of understanding them. Are you claiming that removing functionality does make programming easier, or that you have not suggested removing functionality by making the Unix utilities optional? >> You can always decide to not use some API if you don't want to, but not >> having an API available at all means that you will have to do more work >> if/when you needed that functionality. > > Find a message in which I propose that the API's should be removed. If the Unix utilities are an optional component of Rhapsody, which is what you have repeatedly suggested, then these utilities will not be available on every system running Rhapsody. This means that the API provided by those Unix utilities will no longer be available on every system running Rhapsody. In effect, the Unix API has been removed since it would no longer be a mandatory part of all Rhapsody systems. > In fact, I've been constantly and unwaveringly suggesting that all of them > should indeed be API's, when in the current case they are not. An API stands for "application programming interface" and it refers to a convention by which a software component is used by other software. The Unix utilities have an API defined for their command line usage. [ ... ] -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:57:57 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181148 comp.sys.mac.system:193229 comp.sys.next.programmer:21880 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54182 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > > If you were being sarcastic (I'll admit to not being sure, since your > > arguments to date don't make a whole lot of sense, IMHO): > > Right. If the posts here are any indication, it's because people simply > aren't reading them. I have stated for no less that TWO WEEKS the same > points over and over, and to date I've seen only ONE person figure it out. Alternative hypothesis: your arguments are wrong. This is what the majority of people are saying to you, with a single exception. [ ... ] > I have repeatedly, including the message you replied to that generated > this remark. I'm tired of being called a moron because... > > a) I don't need Unix shells on my machine > b) I don't want Unix shells on my machine > c) I think the whole system would work better with shared libraries rather > than forked command line utilties Unix operating systems need Unix shells and Unix utilities to function. Rhapsody needs to be a Unix operating system because Unix is a crucial component that provides the operating system functionality that was missing in MacOS which Apple believes people want. (And not just current Mac users, either but _new_ users....). It may well be true that most people don't ever want to use Unix directly. That's why Apple choose to buy NeXT, since NEXTSTEP does the best job of providing the functionality of Unix while still providing a very user-friendly environment that allows normal users to do their work without ever having to see or think about Unix _if_ they don't want to. But, if using Unix is so abhorrent to you, you have alternatives-- you could stick with MacOS 7.x, or switch to Windows NT. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uni.edu!news From: "Perry K. Lund" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:36:25 -0600 Organization: William Penn College Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32E51AB8.27D7@wmpenn.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <199701211742586676963@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> <32E51363.2C67@aw.sgi.com> Reply-To: lundp@wmpenn.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: galva.math-cs.uni.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54183 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181149 comp.sys.mac.system:193231 comp.sys.next.programmer:21881 Michael Taylor wrote: > > > Macs have traditionally been touted as systems where you don't need a > > system administrator. A lot of home users are not C.S. savvy and want > > the new system to be as simple to install and administer as system 7 is, > > with the advantages that a protected & pre-emptive system can give. > > > I would assert the following: > - one Mac is much easier to administrate than one Unix box > - 100 Unix boxes are much easier to administrate than 100 Macs > > With better UI tools and more Unix hiding, the first statement should > not necessarily hold for the next gen mac systems. The latest version of Network Assistant for Macs in conjunction with At Ease seems to be a move towards making life easier when managing 100s of Macs. With the choice of not using the goofy panels now available, At Ease is useable and not insulting to people. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------- Perry Lund Graduate Student CS Instructor Applied Computer Science UNI 1996 - 1997 William Penn College Cedar Falls, Iowa 50614 Oskaloosa, Iowa 52577 ------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 00:10:39 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5c3ltv$ljg$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: maury@softarc.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21882 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54186 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181153 comp.sys.mac.system:193234 In Maury Markowitz wrote: > In article <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > > Compared to everything else in > > Openstep/Mach, the unix things like /bin, etc, are rather small. Ripping > > them out wont get you much in the way of disk space nor anything else, and it > > will only cost you in functionality and flexability. > > No one has _ever_ advocated their complete removal. The other posts and > my own have suggested making OOPS based versions of the same thing. I > have mentioned this in every letter I've posted for the last three days, > how can everyone continue to miss this point? > I don't think that's the way you've been coming across, and while I don't have an article to quote, I do seem to remember you advocating specifically that things like access to the CLI and the Unix utilities be removed entirely. I don't think there's really a problem with a shared library that impliments the same functionality as the unix CLI tools. I don't think anyone has said "you shouldn't do that", I think they've been saying either: a) that's fine, but don't take away what I've already got, or b) why reinvent the wheel I presonally don't subscribe to the latter.. sometimes in order for your wheels to work with the next generation of carts/wagons/cars/etc, you need to reinvent them. Just don't take away/break what is already there. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:37:49 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 35 Message-ID: <32E56F6D.286A8712@screaming.org> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181172 comp.sys.mac.system:193258 comp.sys.next.programmer:21883 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54200 Charles William Swiger wrote: > Maury Markowitz: > > > > I have repeatedly, including the message you replied to that generated > > this remark. I'm tired of being called a moron because... > > > > a) I don't need Unix shells on my machine > > b) I don't want Unix shells on my machine > > c) I think the whole system would work better with shared libraries rather > > than forked command line utilties > > Unix operating systems need Unix shells and Unix utilities to function. > > Rhapsody needs to be a Unix operating system because Unix is a crucial > component that provides the operating system functionality that was > missing in MacOS which Apple believes people want. (And not just > current Mac users, either but _new_ users....). > > It may well be true that most people don't ever want to use Unix > directly. That's why Apple choose to buy NeXT, since NEXTSTEP does the > best job of providing the functionality of Unix while still providing a > very user-friendly environment that allows normal users to do their work > without ever having to see or think about Unix _if_ they don't want to. > > But, if using Unix is so abhorrent to you, you have alternatives-- you > could stick with MacOS 7.x, or switch to Windows NT. Well said. I think that about wraps up the issue. ;-) But I think that would have been a good time for a BeOS plug, young though it is. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 01:49:35 GMT Organization: NO ORGANIZATION, INC. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5c3rnf$auu@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21884 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54203 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181175 comp.sys.mac.system:193261 In <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Nathan M. Urban wrote: > Why not? All these Unix utilities don't take up much space. Crippling > a Unix system isn't worth the effort. The _only_ consideration is > whether the existence of these utilities will hurt developers with > similar products, and I don't think that this is a serious problem. I > doubt 'find' is going to replace V-Twin for desktop use, but there are > plenty of sysadmins and shell scripts who use it. > Any developer who sees in such tools a threat to his existence should better become a pig farmer fast! Evolution don't take prisoners. -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy * No pig farmers were hurt in this posting #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:54:30 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 55 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <32E21849.265F@washdc.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article <32E21849.265F@washdc.mindspring.com> Mike writes: > But wait a second. If two people use the computer, can they map the same > hard drive to two different points in the file system? All users see the same filesystem. However you can make links (aliases), so the drive apears in two places. All users would see all the links. > If I had a 2Gb drive with two 1Gb partitions, would I be able to have > one partition mapped into the file system for user A's account and the > other partition mapped into the file system for user B's account? That'd > be nice: neither user could muck around with the other's documents. You could, but there would be little point. You need to forget about disks - they're an artifact of the hardware that (at least in the case of non-removeable media) you want to forget about as much as possible. You'd be far better off mounting a single 2Gb partition for all users (say /Users), and give each user a directory inside that (/Users/A and /Users/B). Each user can access the others data, as much as the other user wants them to, using access mechanisms - they can totally exclude each other if they want. The diference would be that if A needed 1.5Gb and B only used 300Mb there's no problem. You should also be able to use quotas (do they work this release?), so A and B can each use up to 1.2Gb (though not at the same time!), but for up to a few days let A use up to up to 1.5Gb (and then force hium to delete the stuff when it times out). > This leads me to think that in a networked environment, I would be able > to mount hard drives from other computers into my file system when I > start up, right? Sort of like automounting servers on a Macintosh > network. This is the normal way of mounting things - ordinary users CANT mount things! (with certain exceptions). The system does all the mounting, and users go find things in a what looks like a single big disk. > Ahhh. Logical volumes. That's what I want. Would it be difficult for the > guys at NeXT to get logical volumes supported? Are logical volumes a > fairly common part of other operating systems? What would happen if one > of the hard drives that makes up a logical volume takes a dive? Seems > like that would present some pretty sticky problems! Its not common, but its not unusual. However I've seen some people come unstuck when messing with these things - usually just by getting confused. Personally (unless I need a high speed raid array!), I'd be happier with one filesystem per disk. It is possible, if you'r eprepared to loose diskspace to have error recovery built in. I've used a system which hacd about 40 disks, each holding 1 bit of data, with some totally spare. Data was accessed as 32bits, with something like six of the drives used for error correction. you could unplug any drive, and the machine would pause for "a while", automatically swap in a spare drive, and rebuild the missing data from the redundancy built into the other drives! This isn't really needed for most purposes! $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mach-O and localization, was Re: Apple-NeXT Conflicts? Date: 21 Jan 1997 17:46:54 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5bsj1f$llh@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.71/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181183 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54206 comp.sys.next.programmer:21886 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes: > In article <5bsj1f$llh@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > > Because (you see this coming) the forked-file concept sucks and > > app wrappers are better. :) > > I don't see how. It appears that when it comes to being able to be > represented on multiple machines, Mach-o is indeed better. The fact > that features made it into wrappers that didn't make it into Mach-o > doesn't mean it should be that way. As OpenStep so ably showed, Mach-o's segments worked great as long as they could port Mach to every hardware platform. As soon as that ability left their grasp with OpenStep/NT, the Mach-o format fell on its face. If they hadn't already pulled out a lot of the information into app wrappers, recompiling for a system that didn't have the ability to handle segments could have been a nightmare. App wrappers aren't that bad as long as the interface normally treats them as single entities. The wrapper makes it easier to pull out or add information to the application using the standard file system calls, and even if you localize your app for twelve different languages, you're not bogging down the load time with information the application is going to skip over anyway. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!solace!mn6.swip.net!seunet!news2.swip.net!rat.se!news From: Joakim Johansson Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 14 Jan 1997 08:42:25 GMT Organization: Research & Trade AB Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bfgth$jfo@baldwin.rat.se> References: <5be9qd$k2k@nntp1.apple.com> Reply-To: no@more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: victor.rat.se Michael D. Rossetti writes > Our preliminary set of objectives for addressing the NeXT opportunity can > be stated as follows: > > 3. Enhancing AppKit through integration of key MacApp concepts. Would that mean a new OpenStep spec, or will AppKit be further changed wrt the OpenStep spec? (It might be a good idea to have an updated OS spec, but let's get the first one out and running first, please) Wouldn't it make more sense to make a "MacApp Framework" which includes that new functionality? (Actually, I though it'd make sense to implement much of the current Apple technologies as Frameworks (QT, OpenDoc, etc, etc).. It's the obvious solution to the integration at least..) Joakim -- Joakim Johansson Software Developer, Research & Trade jocke@rat.se http://www.rat.se/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:00:59 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 102 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <32E4DF05.7E8F@exnext.com> <32E536DE.3BBA@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21888 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54210 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181188 comp.sys.mac.system:193270 In article <32E536DE.3BBA@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > Apple has a crappy Unix, that doesn't have as nice an interface > as NeXTSTEP, doesn't run Mac apps, and is aimed at servers. It's > not user-friendly. And a lot of other people have a crapy Unix too, and they get small sales too. Apple gets the sales it gets not by being Unix, but by being Apple. > No. Some people want these things. ^^^^ Good, then let those people install them. Some people (the vast majority) don't. > If Apple tries to sell some mangled > Unix, nobody who wants *Unix* will buy it. No one that _wants_ Unix buys what Apple has now. The market is tiny and Apple is way better off keeping current customers happy than attempting to go after markets that "allies" like Sun and SGI already do just fine in. > day. These would have to be rewritten or modified. Why do you think that Apple purchased OpenStep? Every application that runs on the Mac will have to be rewritten or modified. Apple is betting on the fact that development under OpenStep will be so easy that it will still be worthwhile. The same is just as true for any market. If new API's were available that offered more functionality and a better interface, why _not_ use them? Afraid of the work? > Basically, using the new OS would be a giant pain in the ass for > Unix users. And Apple doesn't have any, so this seems like a moot point. > Thus, the new OS would probably not be taken seriously, > and few Unix sites would buy it. And they didn't buy it in the past when it was a NeXT product either. Again, moot point. > Not bad. About 16% of the Mac market. That's of the PC market, so something more like 10%. On the Mac market itself, most likely the same number. Lots of growth there! > Because it'll run lots and lots of Mac applications that already exist. So can MAE on anyone else's Unix. > Because it's got the backing of a company with 1.8 billion in the bank > to support it. Because it's no longer a freak OS, but instead has been > 'blessed' by a major company in the industry. Considered a freak company by most these days. > You might want to think about why NeXTSTEP didn't sell, before trying > to apply those conditions to a NeXTSTEP-based MacOS. Most of the > reasons NeXTSTEP didn't sell simply won't apply. So you tell me then, why do _you_ think it didn't sell? You say people want Unix: people don't buy Unix Macs You say Apple's Unix sucks: people don't buy NeXTStep, which doesn't Seems like an empty argument to me. People who buy Unix want Unix. They can still buy it if they want. The market is small, not growing, and smaller than Apple's own. > I disagree. Apple's Unixen have never been particularly stellar. And NeXT's is, and yet it didn't sell either. You can't have it both ways! > > Well I would agree with that for sure, but it would appear to me the > > other 80% would be even better to go after. > > For the moment, Unix users are probably an easier target than Windows > users. I don't know about that, aside from OpenStep what can Apple offer that Sun or SGI or DEC or lots of other people can't? On the other hand all of these companies can offer all sorts of things that Apple can't. If the offering is OpenStep along, see the last sentance. > Especially if Apple gets in good with Sun - Sun shops would > be able to deploy apps across Sun Solaris boxes and Apple Rhapsody > boxes. This would be very nice, especially for shops that have > secretaries using Solaris (they exist, I've seen one). Wow. > True, to an extent. I'd bet the ex-Unix users wouldn't mind jumping back > to a real Unix. Maybe, we'll see. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!nott!cunews!hoth!paul From: paul@computerActive.on.ca (Paul Nadon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Survey... just in case nobody knows... Date: 14 Jan 1997 20:41:48 GMT Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5bgr2c$7ur@bertrand.ccs.carleton.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ribos.computeractive.com Keywords: apple, buyout, survey X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Jan 14 -- Developer Survey Welcome to the second survey of platform choices for Macintosh developers. The first survey was conducted on January 2 and 3. Sponsorship. This survey is sponsored by _MacWEEK_, _Seybold Seminars_, and _DaveNet_. Goals. To learn more about the current direction of the Macintosh development community. A secondary goal is to understand how the direction changed during the week of January 6, when Apple communicated its direction to developers. Timing. The survey begins on 1/14/97; 12:00:00 AM. It completes on 1/14/97; 11:59:59 PM. You can monitor the survey in real-time on the _Survey Results_ page. When the survey is complete, come back to this page for the final results. Changes since the first survey. We welcome Next developers to participate in the second survey. The Java Virtual Machine is now available as a platform choice. This is distinct from Java the programming language, which can be used to create CGI applications or code that runs inside of a web browser. If you indicate that you plan to, or are currently developing for the Java VM, you are working on apps that are accessed thru the native operating system. Thanks! We send back a cookie, but not to limit voting. If you keep the cookie, we'll be able to track changes on an individual basis if we do a third survey. Mac or Next Developers only. Respond to this survey only if you are actively developing software for the Macintosh or Next platforms. We want to know how you feel right now, at this moment. Do you know what platforms you'll be developing software for in the future? Base your responses only on what you know right now. You may change your mind later as more facts become available. This isn't a corporate survey. If you work for a company that develops software for the Mac, or if you develop Mac software in your spare time, please fill out the form. The responses are accumulated into a summary, so you aren't making a public statement. You may include the URL of a web page that describes your products, but unless you state your future platform preferences on your site, no one will know how you voted. Please be honest about your true at-this-moment platform intentions. Survey: http://www.scripting.com/davenet/surveys/97/jan14/ -- Paul Nadon - computerActive inc. paul@computeractive.on.ca http://www.computeractive.on.ca #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:20:25 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 53 Message-ID: <32E58779.29E4@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E404D1.24FA@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc501217.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21890 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54227 comp.sys.mac.system:193281 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181216 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32E404D1.24FA@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy > wrote: > > > > > MailTool > > > > sendMessage: 'This is the contents of the message.' > > > > withSubject: 'My Subject' > > > > to: ' > > > > > One must assume the existence of an object storing much of this data > > > even in the Unix case. Thus the line would become something to the effect > > > of... > > > > > > myMessage.send; > > > > Your comment leaves me baffled. I fail to understand your point. Perhaps > > you could elaborate? > > Certainly, but it's basically "what you said", although I used some > pseudo-OOPS there. If you're writing a real application under OpenStep, > you pretty much have to assume that you've created an object for storing > up the components of the message you want to send. > > So instead of placing strings in the call as you did in your example, I > assume that these had already been placed in fields in some object that > inherited code from a Mail API in a shared library. MAPI is a good > example of a non-OOPS version of what I'm referring too. > > This being the case, the call I illustrated would likely be closer to > the truth, you'd build the object at various prior stages of the code, and > once complete, simply call it's send method. Aha! Now I understand. Thanks. Actually, I would assume that the implementation of #sendMessage:withSubject:to: in MailTool class would be something like: MailTool class>sendMessage: messageString withSubject: subjectStruct to: adrString | message | message := MailMessage boundTo: self current. message text: messageString asText. message subject: subjectString asString. message address: (MailAddress fromString: adrString). message send. Whether one would actually use the "convenvience message" #sendMessage:withSubject:to:, or code using MailMessage directly, would depend on what one was doing and why. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: 21 Jan 97 21:12:24 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-16.access.one.net In-reply-to: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu's message of 20 Jan 1997 14:35:44 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21891 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54228 comp.sys.mac.system:193282 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181218 In article <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) writes: I love Unix and the Unix command line. I just think it would more elegant if most of the Unix functionality were wrappered with objects. Then the utilities could slowly be rewritten into object libraries, so that instead of having programs with object wrappers, you have programs which are thin wrappers around the objects. (Like 'ls' messaging a FileList object or something.) The biggest problem with this is that of the Unix utilities in existence, very little of them would be useful if they were converted to be object libraries IN THEIR CURRENT FORM. Take, for instance, telnet. For the most part, it provides an input/output connection to a remote site. As an object library, you'd really want it to allow generalized access to the WILL/WONT/DO/DONT negotiations, and also to parse and otherwise manipulate the input/output. Command-line telnet really has no facilities for this. If you _had_ a general object library of this sort, it would certainly be useful in implementing a command-line telnet. But, having written something of the sort in the past, it's not an evolutionary thing. A telnet object library has a much greater set of requirements than the command-line telnet needs, and to service those requirements you generally have to make some compromises. [In the case of the telnet protocol, these compromises aren't that severe. But there certainly are cases where you would have to choose performance _or_ flexibility.] Beyond that, though, there simply isn't that much need. Most Unix utilities really wouldn't be useful to most programmers as an object library. Telnet, perhaps. Find, perhaps. sum? split? bc? Most Unix utilities were designed to live within a very specific "object" library which already exists. Better, a large portion of them are more useful within that framework than they would be if they were in a real object library. Keep in mind that part of the power of Unix is that it restricts how programs communicate, but generally provides a wide enough channel for _most_ stuff to get done. An object library widens the channel _tremendously_ over simple pipes and arguments - but brings with it a lot of overhead that you have to ignore to get common jobs done. You know how "everyone" thinks Unix is complicated compared to DOS? It's generally not because DOS is actually simpler. Rather, it's because DOS doesn't have as many options. ls has many more options than dir (though neither is an "intuitive" label), which in some sense makes ls less approachable. A "FileList" object would probably have _many_ more options than ls, which would make it even harder to use. My gut feeling is that a FileList class general enough to implement a modern ls command would be a pretty substantial class. Probably a goodly part of a framework, in fact. Nobody wants a FileList class which just returns exactly a list of filenames, after all ... Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:27:49 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 50 Message-ID: <32E58935.6F04@concentric.net> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc501217.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181219 comp.sys.mac.system:193283 comp.sys.next.programmer:21892 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54229 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld > Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > > > If you were being sarcastic (I'll admit to not being sure, since your > > > arguments to date don't make a whole lot of sense, IMHO): > > > > Right. If the posts here are any indication, it's because people simply > > aren't reading them. I have stated for no less that TWO WEEKS the same > > points over and over, and to date I've seen only ONE person figure it out. > > Alternative hypothesis: your arguments are wrong. This is what the > majority of people are saying to you, with a single exception. > > [ ... ] > > I have repeatedly, including the message you replied to that generated > > this remark. I'm tired of being called a moron because... > > > > a) I don't need Unix shells on my machine > > b) I don't want Unix shells on my machine > > c) I think the whole system would work better with shared libraries rather > > than forked command line utilties > > Unix operating systems need Unix shells and Unix utilities to function. > > Rhapsody needs to be a Unix operating system because Unix is a crucial > component that provides the operating system functionality that was > missing in MacOS which Apple believes people want. (And not just > current Mac users, either but _new_ users....). > > It may well be true that most people don't ever want to use Unix > directly. That's why Apple choose to buy NeXT, since NEXTSTEP does the > best job of providing the functionality of Unix while still providing a > very user-friendly environment that allows normal users to do their work > without ever having to see or think about Unix _if_ they don't want to. > > But, if using Unix is so abhorrent to you, you have alternatives-- you > could stick with MacOS 7.x, or switch to Windows NT. Exactly so. I would like it if the Unix utilities exposed more of their inner goodies as shared library functions--but that will have to wait until the Unix community can find the time do so. It's a good goal. But so are many other things, and you can't have everything that's good--there's not enough time or money. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 97 21:33:27 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 68 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-16.access.one.net In-reply-to: maury@softarc.com's message of Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:18:36 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21893 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54230 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181220 comp.sys.mac.system:193284 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes: In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > The first two points mean that a generalized, well-designed set > of OOP libraries implementing the same set of functionality as a > particular set of Unix command-line utilities will take 2-4 times > the effort to develop. My experience indicates that that is a > _conservative_ estimate. The effort required is likely to be > open-ended. So for this reason we should live with the status quo and not even bother? Sorry, this doesn't strike me as a particularly strong argument. Sorry, perhaps I need to clarify - I'm not arguing about whether Unix utilities _should_ be converted to OOP libraries. I'm telling you why they _won't_ be so converted. > Each specific operation I've done in Unix probably would be > slicker if it had a GUI counterpart. On the other hand, any > package which had that many functions would be impossible to > understand Ummm, you can wrap your head around the collection of Unix utilties but not the same collection re-implemented? Take the simple case, a 1:1 library. Now explain how this is any harder to understand than the current solution. The secret, here, is that Unix has a very hard restriction on communications at a very low level. For the most part, communication is either via stream input, stream output, or command-line arguments. Any program, to be useful, has to come in under that bar. For that reason, I don't _have_ to understand the entire collection of Unix utilities, I only have to understand those I use. For a 1:1 library which provided a suitable stream abstraction, things would be just the same. On the other hand, a library which was that faithful to the source would be almost useless. For instance, take your directory-listing API. Under Unix, you essentially end up with a stream of bytes. Very simple. With an API, you'd want a stream of objects of some sort which would represent files. From there you'd query the file objects for various info you were interested in, probably using LISP mapcar style semantics. This is already quite a bit more complicated than a stream of bytes. Beyond that, though, you need to make certain that things work in entire frameworks. For instance, the directory-listing API should easily extend into the find(1) type API, and also into the file-manipulation API, and file-access API, etc, etc. An API thus has a significant amount of under-the-surface structure which makes everything work together. That structure _will_ make the framework harder to understand. Any specific operation is likely to be harder to understand, though once you get the "hang" of it, you can probably do pretty well. But the learning curve will necessarily be steeper than command-line Unix. [Keep in mind that we're talking an entire system of frameworks that have to work together. Millions of lines, at a minimum, and I'd expect the class count to be in the thousands - let alone the method count!] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:57:06 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 35 Message-ID: <32E59012.5DE7@concentric.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b6dih$9bm@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bsi7l$ecd@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c3dl9$ag5@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc501217.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21894 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54231 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181222 comp.sys.mac.system:193288 William Raphael Hix wrote: > > Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: > : > : The C compiler. Apple could very well leave that out.. wouldn't want > : to give people a free alternative.. though I don't think that even the > : GNU C compiler with Obj-C extensions will be able to link in CodeWarrior > : object files or the OpenStep libraries, so I don't think they would gain > : much by leaving it out; it's mostly useful for command-line stuff. And > : leaving it out would be a big problem for Unix people, since most Unix > : software is distributed in source form only (every Unix system comes > : with a C compiler, except for some commercial implementations who have > : discovered that they can charge extra for the compiler). > > And if Unix people were Apple's target for Rhapsody you'd be absolutely > right, without cc it'd be almost useless. But Apple's current customer > base, and the only people with machines capable of running Rhapsody > when it is released, aren't Unix people. Mac users live in a world of > shrink wrapped software, and will go to NT before they will compile > applications themselves. If Rhapsody should ever need a C compiler > as standard equipment, the game is over. Define "need." If you mean "unuseable without it," I'd agree. If you mean "necessary in order to grab Unix source code off the net and compile it" (such source code will be available no matter what Apple does, or what OS they use), then I disagree. Especially if such sources are "self compiling" in the same way that Zip file can be "self extracting." Or if there's a nice user-friendly GUI tool for compiling source code. Users wouldn't even have to know what was really happening, any more than they have to understand the technoloyg behind compression. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.clark.net!noos.hooked.net!news.scruz.net!kithrup.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 21 Jan 1997 15:25:03 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.71/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21895 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54234 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181227 comp.sys.mac.system:193291 tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) writes: > The *reason* I want a Mac is so that I wouldn't have to deal with > the hassles of a CLI-based OS like Unix or DOS/Windows. So I > wouldn't *have* to deal with /bin, /usr and /etc, commands like > "ls", "mv", "chmod," and suchlike. I hate to put words in other > people's mouths, but I imagine that's the same reason a lot of the > Mac users in this debate bought Macs. > > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without > *forcing* users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need to > see or use them unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't > mind. But what I saw of NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that > way, and the comments I've seen here suggest that it hasn't changed > in this respect. Actually, I'm seriously confused as to where in NeXTSTEP you felt you had to deal with /bin, `ls', `mv', `chmod' or any of the others. I know I've never felt a desperate need to drop to the command line for any of these things, and I don't think my wife has touched Terminal.app in years. Can you elaborate? As for the comments you're seeing here, I'd ignore them. Most of them seem to be arguing against a perception that Maury wants to dump all the Unix utilities completely and turn them into an object layer before Rhapsody goes gold. Whether that's true or not, I think it's more important to figure out where the existing GUI can be improved to make it work better for Joe Average User, not to play `what can we rip out this week'. > Let me turn the question around: Should Joe Average User have to > wade through Unix arcanum just to use the computer, when he doesn't > know or care what 1/4 of the things mean, let alone how to use them > -- just so that the small percentage of Unix gurus can easily run > install scripts? I agree completely, but I don't think this is an either-or thing. NeXTSTEP already does a good job of hiding the Unix-ness like /bin out of the box for normal users. Where is it falling down on the job? -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca!bstone From: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 22 Jan 1997 04:55:34 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5c46k6$ma0@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21896 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54248 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181249 comp.sys.mac.system:193308 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: > Which portion do you not understand: Why you're wasting so much time advocating something that doesn't exist and isn't likely exist in the near future. You might as well advocate teleportation over automobiles for all the good it's likely to do. I would _love_ to see a complete OO paradigm used to completely reinvent a modern operating system API. I think that you are hopelessly underestimating the effort involved. Microsoft has just begun the chore and even though they've got money to burn they don't expect to be done any time soon. > No one has _ever_ advocated their complete removal. You mean aside from your stating that it would make life easier for developers and make the system more cross platform if they were removed? I hope you're not surprised people took that as advocacy for their removal. Yes, you've made it very clear since then that this wasn't what you meant, but it was what you said. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blake W. Stone bstone@dkw.com Technical Director - DKW Systems "Art may imitate life, but life http://www.dkw.com/bstone imitates TV" - Ani Difranco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!rtd.com!opus1.com!opus1.com!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Message-ID: <32DBCF8F.2BBF@running-start.com> From: Eric Hermanson Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:25:19 -0800 Reply-To: eric@running-start.com References: <5be9qd$k2k@nntp1.apple.com> <5bfgth$jfo@baldwin.rat.se> Organization: Running Start, Inc. Nntp-Posting-Host: universe.running-start.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 29 Joakim Johansson wrote: > > Michael D. Rossetti writes > > Our preliminary set of objectives for addressing the NeXT opportunity can > > be stated as follows: > > > > 3. Enhancing AppKit through integration of key MacApp concepts. > > Would that mean a new OpenStep spec, or will AppKit be > further changed wrt the OpenStep spec? > (It might be a good idea to have an updated OS spec, but > let's get the first one out and running first, please) I'd like to make something clear. Apple has no power to change the OpenStep spec itself (if it still wants to be compatible with everyone else, that is). The OpenStep spec can only be changed if it is approved by the open standards bodies (I think one of them is OMG in this case). Apple can certainly add proprietary frameworks on top of the OpenStep foundation (much like WebObjects and EOF are proprietary add-ons). Eric -- Running Start, Inc. * Ask About Our Software For: "The Enterprise Developer's Developer" * Workflow http://www.running-start.com * Web Commerce +1-520-760-4890 (4891 FAX) * Request Resolution eric@running-start.com * OPENSTEP/WebObjects/JAVA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news.dfn.de!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!gatech!csulb.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.glink.net.hk!uunet!in1.uu.net!129.35.248.10!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 22 Jan 1997 04:59:38 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5c46rq$84c@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1bm1$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21898 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54251 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181258 comp.sys.mac.system:193328 Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: : raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: : > Then you are essentially arguing that tar is of little use? If : > this is so, then why bother including it on everyone's disk? : : It is of little use, to me, as a backup utility. : : It is of great use, to me, for downloading (or uploading) : distributions of various packages. I don't think it would : replace stuffit for Mac-ish things, but at the same time : Stuffit won't replace tar for unixy packages (not unless : Aladdin makes a version of stuffit for all unix platforms, : which I have actually asked them to do at times). Except that Stuffit does tar, create and extract. Stuffit and tar really do the same thing, file aggregating, though Stuffit compresses as well and has a nice interface. If I had stuffit on my Rhapsody machine, I wouldn't need tar. Your use of tar seems predicated on a Rhapsody software distribution system like most of Unix. Are you expecting lots of "here's the source code now compile it yourself" apps ported from Unix to Rhapsody? It's fundamental differences in expectations between the Mac and NeXT communities which fuel this thread. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!129.35.248.10!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 22 Jan 1997 05:53:45 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 75 Message-ID: <5c4a19$bja@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21899 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54252 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181269 comp.sys.mac.system:193336 Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: : : In any case, there are some (but not all) of those unix utilites : which are used during system bootup, or system shutdown, or other : system functions which *all* users will expect to have. : : I suppose they could separate out the ones they really *need*, and : have an optional installation package for the rest. To me this : seems like a lot of work, but maybe it isn't too bad. If they want : to do this, it won't bother me much -- assuming the system still : boots up of course. : : One thing that might help is to point out that some of this separate : already exists, There are a lot of unix utilities which are in the : developer package, and not the "NeXTSTEP user" package. So, maybe : the current NeXTSTEP situation isn't quite as bad as you think it : is, because some of the stuff is already separated into optional : packages. Such a scheme would allow Apple to maximize its appeal across the range of users. Imagine the following version of basic version of Rhapsody. 1) A Mach 3ish kernal (could be from NeXT, Apple, PPC Linux, Sun) 2) A stripped down version of the BSD emulated services, just the minimum necessary for OpenStep with boot handled by some means other than shell scripts. No CLI app or non-GUI access to BSD commands, to minimize the size of the distribution as well as Apple's potential problems supporting such things to the general Mac community. 3) OpenStep, with DPS, perhaps some QDGX enhancements as the Yellow Box. Sys 7.7 in the Blue Box, compatible with all productivity apps (except perhaps Word and Excel 8-)). This would be MacOS 8, selling for about $100. I think this would satisfy the Mac power users who just want more stability and performance from their Mac, and the home Mac users who just want their Macs to work, but neither of them wants learn anymore about computers than they know already. The price would need to be competitive with Win95 on the desktop. In addition there would be the optional Unix Application Environment (UAE) or perhaps the NeXT Application Environment (NAE) with a CLI app, full use of sed/grep/awk/... and shell scripts to your heart's content, except no ability to edit OS controls outside of the GUI. Perhaps it'd even have a OpenStep 4.2 mode for the appearence manager. This'd be full Unix compatibility (perhaps even with binary compatibility with AIX for PPC apps), except no cc, X11R6, perhaps no NFS. All of these would I'm sure be available from third parties. NAE would cost $100-200 perhaps, giving the current NeXT users a NeXT like system which also runs more commercial software, for I think less than NeXTstep user costs now? It'd also give Macs better connectivity in a Unix environment, and I guess given the work going into Unix-NT interactivity, better NT connectivity. Building on a strong Unix background, but having relatively low cost and great ease of use, this might be able to give NT a good fight. Would this satisfy everyone? Well, not the QD GX devotes or the folks who thinks Unix inside is as bad as Intel inside, even if they never see it. But I think it's still got a chance of satisfying a lot of people, from enterprise and content development to my mom, by being scalable. Hopefully it would avoid the dichotomy Microsoft has between their desktop and server OS. I put this "proposal" out as an attempt to constructively rationalize the hopes of the NeXT community with Apple's current loyal following, so I'd like to hear constructive comments. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in2.uu.net!129.35.248.10!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 22 Jan 1997 07:13:41 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5c4en5$fpj@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21900 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54255 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181272 comp.sys.mac.system:193342 Chris Johnson (jinx6568@sover.net) wrote: : I agree with Nathan. Completely. Because we do have good installers, : and this is an ideal situation for a good installer. : Preloads would be a more interesting situation and I daresay if the : utilities are truly auxiliary they would not be included on mass-market : preloads. But you could probably download them as desired. As I said more completely in a previous post, I think such scalable installation is the way to keep everyone happy, though if it's too finally grained it becomes a support nightmare. Perhaps just a basic pure GUI OS for $100, and then an addon which gives CLI, scripts, and the rest, for $100-200 more. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cwix!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.213.61!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.globalserve.net!usenet From: Drone Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 02:22:16 -0500 Organization: Envision This Lines: 49 Message-ID: <32E5C028.146C@globalserve.net> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> Reply-To: foxglove@globalserve.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin327.globalserve.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21901 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54257 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181274 comp.sys.mac.system:193345 Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > Oh, that's right. Apple's marketshare is dwindling. Apple's > traditional markets are moving to Windows. Schools, homes, graphics > professionals. Evidently, Apple must not be selling what people want > anymore. Apple isn't even holding on to their *current* customers. > I think Apple should spend some time to find out exactly what > users want. *Not* current Mac users. Former Mac users. Mac users > who have left the Mac for NT, Solaris, Linux, IRIX, whatever. > Obviously, Apple can't grow their marketshare selling to current > Mac owners. Apple has to design Rhapsody for former Mac owners. > Then they have to make it clear that Rhapsody is what they really > wanted, and that they should come back. An Intel port of Rhapsody > would make this easier. > > Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully > sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% > marketshare. A 16% increase in Mac marketshare. Furthermore, it's > an increase, which Apple hasn't seen in many moons. > I'm sick of this fallacy. Just because Apple's market share is decreasing, that doesn't mean that Mac users are abandoning the platform at greater rates. Since the majority of any computer market today is made up of those who already own outdated equipment, decreased market share simply means that Mac users are not replacing their systems as quickly as Wintel box users. Considering the massive tidal wave of hardware upgrades required by Windows 95 and Windows NT, at a time MacOS has not had major recent upgrades, this is not at all surprising. But it does not follow that fewer people are using Macintoshes, or that Windows is "winning". All it means is that there's going to be a new rash of dire predictions. Macintosh's problems right now rest in their sluggishness in bringing a new O/S to market. That's not good for their bottom line, since there are fewer upgrades forced by a higher O/S demands on the system. But does nobody see the positive side of this? How many of us have been forced to upgrade our CPUs in the last three years by an O/S revision? Apple is cash-rich so let them take some losses for a few more quarters, I like the mileage I'm getting on my PowerBook. In a year and a half or so, we'll all be buying again with the new O/S. Market share will increase. People will says Apple's back. And the real story (that market share is more closely tied to the timing of software releases than the size of the user base) will still be missing from the popular press. Personally, I hope that Microsoft's bloatware policy continues to the point where Wintel users are replacing their systems every six months. Thus, Mac's "market share" should shrink to about 1%, but with basically the same business and revenue. That will keep Apple healthy until the day Gates is drawn and quartered by the people buying 99% of the new computers each year for no good reason. Drone. -- "esse est percipi" foxglove@globalserve.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: Bill Bumgarner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Event handling during tight loop Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 01:26:43 -0500 Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32E5B323.4C76@friday.com> References: <32e3b48a.0@192.33.12.30> Reply-To: bbum@friday.com NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh3-port173.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) To: jon klein X-Priority: Normal Go look at the BackSpace source... basically, you want a modal event loop that doesn't lock one into modality. Backspace does this very well-- it avoids going all the way up to the main event loop unless some event occurs that it's internal event loop cannot handle. Caveats: Under OpenStep, be sure to maintain your own NSAutoreleasePool within the inner loop or else you will end up with a HUGE wad of unreleased objects when you leave the inner loop... they won't get leaked, but it will eat memory (by growing the processes swap size) and will cause the program to pause on the next pass through the MEL to clean up the accumalated objects. I don't know if it made it to OpenStep, but NeXTSTEP featured a single BOOL return function that would return YES if the user hit Command-. since the last call... it was intended to be used as a user-break signal from within tight loops-- ie; loops that couldn't afford even the overhead of what BackSpace does. b.bum #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: Bill Bumgarner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:11:36 -0500 Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 34 Message-ID: <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> Reply-To: bbum@friday.com NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh3-port173.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) To: Scott Anguish X-Priority: Normal Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21903 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54260 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181277 comp.sys.mac.system:193349 Actually, tar really, really sucks as an archive tool... tar was designed for use as an archival tool for writing hierarchies of files to a linear piece of media. As such, it lacks certain conveniences such as 'random access', 'well organized directory information', or any of the other conveniences of, say, Stuffit. Don't get me wrong-- tar provides a certain set of functinality that is both convenient and highly functional... but to say it is superior to Stuffit is ridiculous. If anything, Aladdin should release a version of Stuffit that can be used from the command line... I'd certainly pay for a tool that give me random access to my archives, a full-featured GUI w/drag-n-drop, and a comparably featured command line utility. [Hey, Raymond, remember me? Probably not... I'm the person that fought so, so hard for Stuffit to become an accepted file type on Connect and CompuServe way back in the .7, .8 days... back when that stupid Huffman tool ruled the mac world.] The only real advantage the various Unix tools have over the various tools on other platforms is that they +work+ within an environment that can be scripted (note that easily is nowhere to be found). But-- the user interface is crap and it is quite easy for the user to mean one thing and end up fatally wounding themselves (instead of just piercing their foot). Combine the UI experience of the comparable tools under Mac w/the awesome functionality of the various unix tools and you have one hell of a powerful system that one may actually have a hope of using without hurting oneself. b.bum #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 06:08:09 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5c4as9$4m2@duke.squonk.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21904 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181280 comp.sys.mac.system:193350 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54263 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Charles William Swiger wrote: > > > Apparently not, because you are arguing that we should not > > reuse the preexisting code available in the form of the Unix > > utilities, and should instead write APIs and an implementation > > in the C system library for all of those utilities. That is > > the opposite of "code reuse"! > > Until you add in the words "OpenStep on NT". Once that's included > it's clear that modern code indeed offers considerably better > chances for code reuse than the current shell utilities. "OpenStep on WindowsNT" is a product that runs upon an already- existing operating system, which is to say, WindowsNT. OpenStep itself does not include (it the specification) anything about Unix utilities. WindowsNT, the operating system (or environment, whatever) includes many tools similiar to the tools in the land of Unix. Thus, OpenStep did not include Unix utilities. However, in the case of Rhapsody, there is no already-existing operating system. There are no tools which already exist. Thus, if you do not use the unix utilities from something like NeXTSTEP, you will have to get them from somewhere else. Where do you propose to get them? As near as I can tell, you are proposing that someone develops some libraries which reimplement all the same utilities. This might well produce a superior result, but it won't do that by the time WWDC rolls around. Note that I'm serious that I want the abilities which happen to be in the unix utilities, and I want Rhapsody released this year. If you have an alternate source for all these utilities, one which will not delay Rhapsody, that might well be fine with me (depending on how good the replacement is, I guess). However, I think your position would be much more crediable if you could point at a specific alternate source for all these utilities. Note that an answer of "we'll just start from scratch and write them all" would be a particularly foolish position. Unless you can point to the specific set of utilities you would use, we are left to assume you mean "rewrite it all from scratch". --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!swidir.switch.ch!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!news.squonk.net!news From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 06:20:47 GMT Organization: Squonk-Net, Loudonville, NY 12211 Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5c4bjv$4m2@duke.squonk.net> References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.113.24.92 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21905 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54269 comp.sys.mac.system:193355 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181287 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Charles William Swiger wrote: > > > [You] can always decide to not use some API if you don't want to, > > but not having an API available at all means that you will have > > to do more work if/when you needed that functionality. > > Find a message in which I propose that the API's should be removed. > In fact, I've been constantly and unwaveringly suggesting that > all of them should indeed be API's, when in the current case they > are not. The point is that you think unix commands are not an API. Those of us who have written shell scripts are quite certain that unix commands are an API. Crude, perhaps, but effective. An API does not have to be pretty in order to be an API. Thus, when you want to remove unix utilities, you are removing an API. It's an API that you don't care for, but it is still and API. Perhaps most importantly, it is an API which is currently used a lot to boot up the system, run tasks in the background (tasks that the user never types anything in for), and cleanly shutdown the system. If you remove this API, you will have to reimplement all those functions. No one here is saying that Mac users must learn this API, any more than they must learn Hypercard. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:38:02 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as10s65.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21906 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54270 comp.sys.mac.system:193357 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181290 In article <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: >In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, >Alan Lovejoy wrote: > >>Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. >> >>I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously >>make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... > >Why? > Why not? -- -------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm@nic.com "We are a fact-gathering organization only... the minute the FBI begins making recommendations on what should be done with its information, it becomes a Gestapo." -- J. Edgar Hoover #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!smalltown.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!leto!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:41:32 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as10s65.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21907 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54280 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181300 comp.sys.mac.system:193360 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > That's right, it's all illogical. And the sky is indeed green on my >planet. Happy now? > Ah, you live in central New Jersey do you? ;-) Sorry, just trying to lighten the mood a bit. -- -------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm@nic.com "We are a fact-gathering organization only... the minute the FBI begins making recommendations on what should be done with its information, it becomes a Gestapo." -- J. Edgar Hoover #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.sgi.apps,comp.sys.sgi.misc,comp.sys.sun.apps,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.unix.aix,comp.unix.programmer,comp.unix.sco.programmer,comp.unix.solaris Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.ececs.uc.edu!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!uucp3.uu.net!world!noblenet From: Alex Valentine Subject: PR: NobleNet Secure Message-ID: Followup-To: poster Keywords: NobleNet, Client/Server, Remote Procedure Call, RPC, ONC, XDR, TCP/IP, Middleware, Tool, Secure, API, EZ-RPC, Communications, Developer, Software, Windows, Unix, Macintosh, VxWorks, VMS, Internet, Intranet Sender: noblenet@world.std.com (NobleNet Inc.) Reply-To: noblenet@world.std.com Organization: NobleNet, Inc. Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:45:14 GMT Lines: 88 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:59160 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10617 comp.sys.next.programmer:21908 comp.sys.sgi.apps:14908 comp.sys.sgi.misc:31346 comp.sys.sun.apps:14571 comp.sys.sun.misc:26781 comp.unix.aix:84280 comp.unix.programmer:45955 comp.unix.sco.programmer:5460 comp.unix.solaris:104743 PRESS RELEASE For Immediate Release For Further Information, Please Contact: Alex Valentine Director of Product Management NobleNet, Inc. Voice: (508) 460-8222 FAX: (508) 460-3456 e-mail: alexv@noblenet.com NobleNet Secure(TM) Provides Client/Server Application Security New Product Features Patented "Snap-in" Security Module Architecture Boston, January 21, 1997 -- NobleNet announces the availability of its initial entry into the market for securing applications that pass data over networks. Based on industry standards, NobleNet Secure is a highly flexible, modular approach to building secure client/server systems. Using a patented "snap-in" architecture, developers can implement pre-packaged security algorithms or integrate security modules of their choice, including custom algorithms for authentication, privacy, and integrity. Built with an open set of software interfaces, the domestic version of NobleNet Secure includes DES, RIVC4, XOR, MD5 and SHA modules. Application Programming Interfaces(APIs) allow for the integration of custom encryption algorithms, hardware-based smart cards, and both public and private key authentication. NobleNet Secure is a key element of the Optix(TM) document management system developed and marketed by Blueridge Technologies. "For our cross-platform, Internet architecture we needed a state-of-the-art security model and NobleNet Secure was the right solution," said Keith Ellis, Vice President of Sales and Marketing for Blueridge. A major design goal of NobleNet Secure is to provide a general purpose interface that accommodates any encryption method, and to do it in a way that minimizes the performance impact on the application. Higher levels of security typically impose application performance penalties. Solving performance problems with specialized hardware or higher powered computers can be an expensive solution. NobleNet's approach to security recognizes that not all application data requires encryption. Unlike most other implementations, NobleNet Secure allows security to be turned on or off on a per-call basis allowing developers to optimize the balance between security and performance. With NobleNet Secure, only those calls that require security are encrypted, leaving all other data to pass over the network without performance penalty. Being selective at the call coding level provides the developer an opportunity to construct secure applications that might not be possible with other approaches. "NobleNet Secure is ideal for programmers that want to get a quick immersion into secure client/server computing with software that requires very little effort to learn," said Mark Wedge, one of the principal programmers on Business Travel Solutions (BTS), SABRE Decision Technologies' (SM) new high performance on-line corporate travel booking and management project. The SABRE Group is now an independent company with its majority stock holder being AMR Corporation. "The software has a wealth of real-world capability that provides the developer with thorough control of just what is secured and what is passed without encryption. NobleNet Secure's flexibility saves development time and results in higher performing secure applications." NobleNet Secure works with any industry-standard Open Network Computing (ONC) implementation including NobleNet's recently announced RPC 3.0, the world's most advanced RPC environment. NobleNet Secure is currently available on Windows 3.1, 95, and NT, and on most popular UNIX platforms. Pricing is $2500 per platform which includes five end-user seats for application deployment. Additional deployment seats sell in 10, 100, and 1000 unit packages. For Independent Software Vendors (ISVs) desiring to integrate the software within their own product, NobleNet offers a percentage royalty pricing arrangement. NobleNet offers client/server middleware for procedural and object paradigms. Incorporated in 1991, NobleNet is the world leader in Remote Procedure Call (RPC) technology and has won numerous awards for its product family. The company headquarters in Southboro, Massachusetts can be reached by telephone at (508) 460-8222 or at http://www.noblenet.com/. Optix(TM) is a trademark of Blueridge Technologies, Flint Hill, VA http://www.blueridge.com. SABRE Decision Technologies(SM) is a service marks of SABRE Group Holding, Inc., Southlake, TX http://www.sabre.com. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 22 Jan 1997 05:07:41 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5c47at$8o6@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c1c3e$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21909 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54283 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181307 comp.sys.mac.system:193368 Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: : It's not so much that I care about the unix underpinnings of the : current NeXTSTEP product, however I do think those underpinnings : provide many useful abilities. If Apple does not use Unix to do : those things, then they will have more work to do (one way or : another). I do think the abilities are important, and I do not : think it would be brilliant of Apple to start reinventing a lot : of wheels simply so they can say "Well, we kept Unix off our : hardware!". Too much work, for too little payback. : : I'm also of the opinion that if they *do* keep the unix underpinnings, : then they should pick a layout for Unix which already exists, : instead of dreaming up a new one. Note that they do not have to : stick with NeXT's BSD-style layer to do this, they could also use : a layout that mimics Solaris or AIX. The important point is that : the unix layer should look a lot like something which already : exists. : : The reason for this, to me, is that there are many packages with : nice little configure scripts which will break if Apple dreams up : some new layout for unix. I see this as creating work for everyone, : including Apple, and for no good reason. What you are saying makes perfect sense, if Rhapsody was the next generation of OS from a Unix workstation vendor or the true successor to NeXTStep. Apple has not really clearly defined what they want Rhapsody to be, or the future of OpenStep (except to say they will continue to support it). If Apple positions Rhapsody as a desktop OS, competing with Win 95 and NT workstation, leaving the server side to OpenStep then your arguments for Unix compatability are not as strong. Has anyone read any more details from Apple about the projected role of Rhapsody? Inofworld seems to think that the lack of details from Apple stems from exactly these kinds of debates, internally. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 22 Jan 1997 07:21:25 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5c4f5l$g5k@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> So which market do they go after? The PC market doesn't want Unix any : > more than the Mac market does. : > : Umm, this jars a little with the success of Linux... Linux is one of those things which USENET gives a better impression of than reality. Don't get me wrong, I like free Unix for common hardware and the grassroots communal development gestalt. It's just that Linux has much more USENET mindshare than real world "marketshare". Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 22 Jan 1997 07:08:23 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 211 Message-ID: <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21911 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54286 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181313 comp.sys.mac.system:193373 Scott Anguish (sanguish@digifix.com) wrote: : On 01/20/97, William Raphael Hix wrote: : >Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: : >: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: : > : >Then you are essentially arguing that tar is of little use? : : Sounds to me that what he's saying is that its too clumsy for most : casual users to learn, and that there is a market for a front end to it. : : Tar is of a great use to many people out there, isn't that obvious : since almost everyone is adding its functionality and there are free : versions of it available? : Tar is of great use to Unix users. I use tar on my Unix box to aggregate files which I then compress and download to my Mac where Stuffit uncompresses and untars them. But most Mac users never encounter tar files since Mac software distribution is done by Stuffit/BinHex. But you expect Rhapsody software distribution to work like NeXTStep? Ports of apps from Unix to Rhapsody? This is another of those places there the NeXT and Mac community are talking about apples and oranges (I apologize for the pun). : >If this is then why bother including it on everyone's disk? : : Why? Well, lets see.. : : Its a universally available tool on ALL machines, without depending : on owning a third party product. This means that an Apple user who : downloads something from the Net has a tool to start from. But it doesn't do anything for a Mac user since Mac software in not in tar format. Perhaps for Rhapsody this will change, but I think that you are assuming things which aren't decide yet. : Same can be said for compress, ftp, telnet, etc... And there are software tools available for free or cheap which handle most of these in an GUI fashion familar to Mac users, so CLI version is of no use to Mac users. Will it be the Mac users or the NeXT users who must adapt. Both of course, we just don't know where who will give in. : >Even before the : >new OS, Apple's usurpation of functionality was one of the main complaints : >from developers. Apple is particularly beholden to their developers : >now since without developer support, Rhapsody is OpenStep/PPC. : >... There will be pressure on Apple to drop such functions. : : Then they need to "value add" to their products. : : Even if they drop it from the OS CD, anyone can compile it for it, : and still give it away. : : If they pressure Apple to drop basic functionality like this, then : Apple should tell them to take a leap. : What a NeXT user sees as basic functionality might seem like wasted disk space to a Mac user. Dropping them also reduces Apple's support load, perhaps lowering the cost. If it's a compiled freeware add-on it's not Apple's job to support it. Use it at your own risk. With tech savvy NeXT folks the risks of such are smaller than with typical desktop users. : : >Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac application B. : >In this case, what is the point of including this utility in the OS? : : Because its required by those who don't have the commercial product. : : Hell, better drop Edit.app from the release, its a RTF text editor, : and the word processor people are going to scream. So Apple is supposed to provide free versions of everything in case you can't afford (or don't want to spend the money on) the commercial version? The economics of a $100 dollar desktop OS are very different from those of a workstation OS. In the case of Edit.app, Apple does provide Simple Text. Should they provide both? : >Unix : >compatibility comes the reply. Well, how important is Unix compatibility? : : Very. To a NeXT user. Too much Unix compatibility might make some Mac users scared, or at least seem like a waste of disk space. : >It's clear from this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. But how : >much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple is pitching Rhapsody : >to? : : Oh, you mean like those piddly companies that have fortune 500 : status? You know, those Enterprise installations Apple HAS to get to get : back into the corporate market? Apple needs to appeal to their current users in order to survive long enough for enterprise to take notice. Besides NeXT demonstrated that even a solid reputation in the enterprise market is not enough to keep a large company or hardware manufacturer alive. : : > Would they rather have the system take up less space or have Unix : >compatibility 99% of them would never use. The feelings of NeXT users : >(none of whom have compatible hardware) are secondary to the 10-100 times : >larger Mac community. : : Well, scr*w you too. Apple has said today that OpenStep for other : platforms will continue to live, so suddenly alot more people become : relevant due to hardware compatibility. : : And again, what if an Enterprise application running on : OpenStep/Solaris or OpenStep/Intel require these tools? Someone needs a new : machine, Apple doesn't ship with the essential tools, so we better just buy : another Intel box with OpenStep/Intel on it. You are taking this too personally. I'm not trying to rain on you parade. Apple has said they will continue to support OpenStep on Intel and Solaris, but I haven't heard anything clear from them about future development, either as Rhapsody on other hardware or independently. Infoworld suggests that wrangling over these options is delaying fundamental choices like which kernal to bring to Rhapsody. But in any event, all such options are in the future. For now Apple has to sell Rhapsody to the current Mac power users if it's to ever get a chance to sell to enterprise or port it to Intel hardware. Apple did not buy NeXT to get the 50,000 yearly sales of OpenStep. It might want to use this as an entree into the enterprise market, but first it has to show that Rhapsody works and that it won't die off. This requires support from the Mac community. : > : >What about find? Should Apple leave the Unix find when we know they're : >going to include their new V-Twin search engine and Find File. Well, the : >V-Twin certainly replaces find if you are a GUI user, but what about CLI : and : >scripts? Will Apple leave find for the 1% of users who might want to : >use their Mac like a Unix box? : : Do you have ANY proof of your 1% number? Are you just grabbing at : air? OK.. Apple removes a whole boatload of unix tools.... which means that : those users who want to do things like run off-the-net stuff like Apache, : INN, sendmail, all those other great Unix server programs are going to have : to go through a hoop routine to install it? The 1% number is based on estimates of Linux installations on PCs. Perhaps it should be a few %. It sounds like you really want Rhapsody to be a cheap Unix, like a supported Linux. Mac users install Mac versions of servers. Some are free, some cost money but are supported. If you want Linux, get Linux. Don't ask millions of Mac users to accept Linux. : : Will Apple prohibit compiling and distribution of find then? Who : gets hurt by Apple including it? : : And what if someone writes a really cool freeware utility that uses : find... do they have to supply it? Of course Apple will not prohibit or inhibit distribution of any software. Apple just won't support it. I can just imagine calls to Apple which get answered, "Well you need to add -print to tell it to print the list of files it finds." Use at your own risk. : >Naturally, every real example is somewhere in between, but both of the : >extreme cases argue against strong Unix compatibility. : : Yeah, compatibility is bad. :-| Personally, I'd love Unix compatibility in my Mac, so all the Unix skills I have at work could be put to better use at home. But Apple isn't pushing Rhapsody for us tech-heads, it's got to appeal to a wider base that couldn't care less about Unix compatibility. : : CyberDog is bad. It hurts Eudora and other mail companies, better : kill it now. Apple did get pressure not to do Cyberdog, but evidently decided that the time had come for an least primitive systemwide Internet services. Perhaps for Rhapsody they'll add Unix compatibility to the list of things necessary to the OS. : sendmail, that might piss off a mail-gateway company : ppp - hell, someone might want to make a commercial version : ftp, sed, awk, perl, - all useful, but might tread on someone's : toes, gotta kill them. : : ftpd, httpd, Apache, INN - all server products that will compete : with other products. They're free here, gotta kill them too. Most of these would not be used by enough users to justify inclusion in the OS. Mac equivalents for most of the rest are available for free, some from Apple. If it wasn't and there was demand, someone would have ported it. Oh, but you want these exact versions. Get a Linux box then. Mac users are largely happy with what they have, if only it'd run stably, in protected memory with pre-emptive multitasking. : >It will be : >interesting to see how Apple resolves this. Perhaps some add-on Unix : >compatibility, even from a 3rd party. : : And lets not forget it will be free. Last time I heard OpenStep was far from free. It really sounds like you want Linux. I doubt you'll be happy with the outcome, because the OS is going to cost > $100 with or without complete BSD. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!in2p3.fr!ccsp001.in2p3.fr!mullere From: mullere@in2p3.fr (Eric Muller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 22 Jan 1997 10:52:28 GMT Organization: Laboratoire PHASE, Strasbourg, France Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5c4rhc$o1k@ccpnws.in2p3.fr> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ccsp001.in2p3.fr X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21912 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54287 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181317 comp.sys.mac.system:193376 Bill Bumgarner (bbum@friday.com) wrote: (some stuff deleted) : If anything, Aladdin should release a version of Stuffit that can be : used from the command line... I'd certainly pay for a tool that give me : random access to my archives, a full-featured GUI w/drag-n-drop, and a : comparably featured command line utility. If you use MPW you can have the Stuffit tools, they come with Stuffit Deluxe. So all you have to do is buying MPW (it come with CodeWarrior, MrC compiler and with the developper program from Apple) and Stuffit Deluxe. Personnaly I prefer to use Stuffit Expander with drag and drop than the MPW tools. -- Eric Muller, thesard au laboratoire PHASE, Strasbourg. Un Mac sinon rien! e-mail : mullere@in2p3.fr #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news.space.net!greenie!burrow.muc.de!tm From: Markus G Subject: Re: Emacs for OpenStep Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <7x4tgay96w.fsf@burrow.muc.de> To: Bill Bumgarner Lines: 43 Sender: tm@burrow.muc.de (the mole) Organization: hardly any. . . X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.82/Emacs 19.34 References: <32E52CE3.1A0B@friday.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.92) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:06:47 GMT >>>>> "BB" == Bill Bumgarner writes: BB> BTW: I installed the package from next-ftp.peak.org, but it BB> just gives a bus error upon launch. I also got a bus error when launching Emacs from the command line without supplying a file name (under 3.3, though). As far as I remember any of the following things fixed it for me (all out of my .emacs): (require 'ns-compat) ; settings for Emacs when run under the GUI: (cond ((eq window-system 'ns) ;;; NS specific instructions (setq gnus-display-type "grayscale") (global-font-lock-mode t) (setq ns-convert-font-trait-alist '(("Courier" "Courier-Bold" "Courier-Oblique" "Courier-BoldOblique"))) ) (t ;;; Instructions for dumb terminal or other window systems ;;; nothing here yet. )) While I'm at it. The following settings are also useful: (setq Man-switches "-M /usr/man:/usr/local/man:/usr/local/lib/perl5/man:/usr/gn\ u/man") (setq text-mode-hook '(lambda () (auto-fill-mode 1))) ; whenever using text-mode ; Enable auto-fill-mode Anyone with more suggestions? Hope this helps, Markus G #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 10:16:14 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54297 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181330 comp.sys.mac.system:193381 comp.sys.next.programmer:21914 On 01/21/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > In article <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford > wrote: > Linux seems to be used on about 1% of the machines in the world > according to something I read once. Who knows if it's true, but it's > running on one machine at work out of a couple hundred. > Fine. However your original message said: "The PC market doesn't want Unix any more than the Mac market does." I submit that Linux's success refutes this statement, and your subsequent post does not alter this. Clearly *some* people *do* want Unix. And in some cases are prepared to go to some lengths to get it too. Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wwa.com!news.ucdavis.edu!dcn138.dcn.davis.ca.us!user From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 16:01:47 -0800 Organization: Bridge Family Lines: 39 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: dcn138.dcn.davis.ca.us X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11098 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3642 comp.sys.next.programmer:21915 In article , toolz@homenet.ie (Neil O'Toole) wrote: > > > > I humbly suggest that Java provides much of the advantages of Objective-C > > plus provides automatic garbage collection, a big win. Some of the languages > > you list above support automatic GC also, but for programmers accustomed to > > C-based languages, automatic GC is very attractive. > > -- > > I don't know much about Objective-C but... the one question I have is, > does Obj-C support multiple inheritance? > > > I humbly suggest that Java provides much of the advantages > > Java the language, (as opposed to Java the technology) in it's current > incarnation is something of a joke. No multiple inheritance - therefore > it's very limitied and/or annoying. > > I know java has its interfaces "to protect ppl from the complexities of > multiple inheritance" (it said somewhere), but hell, let ppl who are > scared of "the complexities" use interfaces, and at least give me the > option of using multiple inheritance. > > Hope someone reads this before they finalise the java language spec. > > Neil. Issues related to multiple inheritence are religious in nature. As a Smalltalk sorta guy I never miss it. Does that make Smalltalk a joke as an object-oriented language? I don't think so. It doesn't make Java a joke either. It's a different way to design object-oriented systems. That Objective-C might not support multiple inheritance doesn't make it a bush-league language. Adam Bridge #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 22 Jan 1997 10:24:21 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5c4psl$sdl@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21916 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181332 comp.sys.mac.system:193385 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54299 On 01/21/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > > For example, CMU has hundreds of Macs in the clusters > > with a very consistent filesystem layout. > > Bully for them. I believe you'll find that your experiences in > university and the commercial world will be largely different. > Why? Best wishes, mmalc. (Followups trimmed to advocacy groups) -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.indy.net!news From: Steve Spicklemire Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:07:54 -0500 Organization: Silicon Prairie Ventures Lines: 33 Message-ID: <32E5F50A.2637@spvi.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: steve@spvi.com NNTP-Posting-Host: indy1.indy.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54302 comp.sys.mac.system:193387 comp.sys.next.programmer:21917 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181338 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > > Great, so have a check box in Custom Install that states "Install Unix > shell utilities" and you can do all of this? This is getting really > repetitive. > in another article in this thread Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Okay, I'm willing to agree with that to an extent. However, your > Smalltalk IDE is not going to be able to provide the flexibility behind > the shell, such as emailing all files ending in '.gif' to somebody in > the way that: > > system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... ) > > ...would do. > OK.. so what happens when I get my shiny new GUI app that expects 'system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... )' to work and the user neglected to install 'tar'? Are all these unix utilities so enourmous that we really want to risk breaking so much code? I would think the whole spiel compares in size (more or less) to a complete installation of any modern office productivity suite. :-) -steve -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Spicklemire Silicon Prairie Ventures, Inc. (and) University of Indianapolis steve@spvi.com steve@estel.uindy.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!jack From: jack@radionics.com (Jack Miller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:54:20 -0500 Organization: RSA Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> <5c2n6k$1l8@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: ns.radionics.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.4 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21918 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54303 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181339 comp.sys.mac.system:193388 In article <5c2n6k$1l8@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without *forcing* > > users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need to see or use them > > unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't mind. But what I saw of > > NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that way, and the comments I've seen > > here suggest that it hasn't changed in this respect. > > > I know of many NEXTSTEP users who don't know anything about Unix, and never > will. They tend not to post here, though. What exactly was it about your > encounter that gave you the idea that you *needed* a CLI. When was this? In addition, Apple's been very clear about the fact that they will hide any unixy remnants in Rhapsody. Even if NextStep DID require any CLI use (which, I'm told, it doesn't), Rhapsody would not. (Personally, I wouldn't mind being able to access a unix CLI from Rhapsody... the one thing I would love to be able to do on my Macs but can't is manipulate files using wildcards. Yes, I know that Find File with the Finder Scripting Extension allows much of this functionality and more, but to me it's not as simple as 'mv hm4*gif ..') Cheers, xxx hj xxx #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!uni-erlangen.de!winx03!news From: Rainer Frohnhfer Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 15 Jan 1997 12:07:52 GMT Organization: University of Wuerzburg, Germany Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5bihao$a0j@winx03.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> References: <5bgrvs$pib@shelob.afs.com> Reply-To: rainer@wmax60.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de NNTP-Posting-Host: wmax66.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote: > Maury Markowitz writes > > I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical context, > > but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. > > To avoid namespace collisions, it is typical for each vendor of objects > to adopt a 2 or 3 letter prefix identifying the author in the class name. > Otherwise, two ISVs might both write a "Foo" class, which could never be > used together in the same project. "NS" is the prefix NeXT chose for its > own classes. And I wish they had not. In Germany, "NS" usually refers to the National Socialists (i.e. Nazis), when used in a term like "NS-regime". Now, what is a NSWindow? O.K., I guess it's clear that there won't be any mixup :) -- ------------------------------------- "Um Energie zu sparen, wird das Licht am Ende des Tunnels vorlaeufig abgeschaltet." rainer@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (finger cip@mathematik for public key ...) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.tfs.net!user From: tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:03:38 -0600 Organization: The Wandering Powerbook... Lines: 137 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: node26.tfs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21920 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54334 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181383 comp.sys.mac.system:193416 In article <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote: >In article , jinx6568@sover.net (Chris >Johnson) wrote: > >> > Mac users should note that the desktop on NEXTSTEP, when using an >> > extension like Fiend, is _not_ part of the filesystem. Every icon you >> > see on the desktop resides somewhere else, like aliases. I suppose this is no surprise by now, after the screeds I've made :), but I can't say I like this, just as I didn't like the equivalent setup in Win 3.1. As I understand it, part of the whole GUI/Desktop/OO paradigm that Apple used is that when you manipulate icons on the desktop, you're manipulating the actual files/items. Making desktop icons no more than pointers to the original files is confusing: in some places in the OS (i.e. the NeXT browser), icons *do* represent files, and manipulating them manipulates the files; in other places, they're only aliases, and they don't affect the original files. I think Apple did the right thing in making aliases explicit creations, and putting their names in italic to distinguish them from regular files; you *know* there's a difference between an alias and a file, and you have an obvious visual cue to distinguish them. >> Where are drive icons kept? > >There are no drive icons. Unix drives look like folders; they're >mounted directly into the filesystem wherever you want (and have >permission to put them). For example, you could have all your users' >directories stored on another drive and mount it as the /Users >folder. You literally can't tell what drive a folder is stored on >unless you open up an inspector. Hmmm. I can see both advantages and disadvantages. If you're running on a fairly static system, with little or no changes to the mounted disks, this can be a big advantage, since you don't have to worry about what file goes where; OTOH, dealing with removable media (or drives that are regularly switched between systems) would be a real nightmare. (That's also much the same way the Newton OS works with data, by the by; data objects (notes, for example, or contact records or appointments) stored on a PC card are inserted into the 'soup' of their respective applications when the card is inserted, and removed when the card is ejected. Again, a mechanism that could be convenient at times, and a real nuisance at others.) >There are some generic icons for removable media like floppy disks and >CD-ROMs that the File Viewer uses instead of a folder icon when you >insert one; those are probably stored in the Workspace's app wrapper. Hmmm. Does that mean items on removable media are *not* inserted into the regular directory tree when you insert a cartridge? Combining a reply to another message in the thread... In article <5bofh1$g3f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote: >In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury >Markowitz) wrote: > >> If all the applications called the API's (notably if those API's were >> clean and OOPS based) there seems to be no use for the shell and utils >> except for scripting. > >Or for the people who prefer using a CLI to a GUI in order to perform >some tasks. Perhaps; but as I've been saying throughout, how many people is that? Is it worth keeping the underpinnings for a CLI for the small percentage of people who want it, if it clutters the system for the majority of people who don't? (More on this below.) As much as I dislike Windows, I'm tempted to use it as an example; you could interpret the explosion of Windows-based programs, with the corresponding withering of the DOS market, as an overwhelming user preference for GUI's. I admit I'm probably biased; I dislike CLI's, prefer GUI's... and the Mac was built from the ground up as a GUI system in exactly the way we're discussing. From the beginning, Mac programs have been calling shared interface and utility code through the Mac Toolbox API's. Scripting is the only area where CLI underpinnings might be an advantage, IMHO... and even there, there have been macro utilities to drive the GUI since... when were QuicKeys and Tempo introduced, 1988? And AppleScript and other Open Scripting Architecture-based languages like Frontier have given the MacOS high-level, object/event-based scripting since '92 or '93. >> Lots of code examples posted here to bolster the "we need grep >> because..." indeed do exactly this, stream their parameters to text >> and send them out to the shell. grep comes to mind, I'm sure you can > >You don't have to send them out to the shell, you can fork 'grep' >directly. grep isn't a bad example, actually. Um, I think you're missing or avoiding his point. I think he's right: most of the arguments in favor of the CLI utilities have been doing exactly what Maury is describing, citing the desirability of calling CLI utilities from programs as if they were being invoked from the shell. >> Then they claim this is a good thing, that you can do this. My point >> is, and has been, that thse utilties, like every other one, should be >> directly accessable via API's, preferably OOPS based ones. > >It is certainly cleaner that way. I would like to see more Unix >utilities have their core functionality folded out into separate >libraries, with the CLI utils being mostly wrappers to those APIs. >However, practically speaking, it is just plain a lot less work to put >OOP wrappers around existing CLI programs. Maybe we will eventually >see a bunch of Unix utils make the transition (for example, GNU has a >regular-expression library that a number of their programs share), in >reality wrappering CLI programs is often nearly as good and requires >less effort. Again, I'm probably biased, because the Mac was built from the ground up as you describe, with the functions provided as OS library API's called by applications. I also admit to an emotional dislike for GUI-driving-CLI, for several reasons. GUI-driving-CLI always felt like a Rube Goldberg contraption to me: it adds a layer of complexity to what could be direct library calls, it adds another link in the execution chain (and thus introduces another opportunity for things to go wrong), adds overhead from the extra steps of generating CLI commands and then having the shell execute them... and just feels less elegant on a gut level. You yourself note that it is only 'often nearly as good'... not 'always,' or 'just as good.' Also, every GUI-driving-CLI system I've seen has had 'holes' where the developers didn't provide a GUI shell for a CLI command... so that a user has to learn the CLI to get some things done. The Mac GUI lets you do *everything* - either directly or through GUI utilities. Travis Butler (The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS; tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook; ; Mac page ) ...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sarnoff.com!quixote.sarnoff.com!user From: tomstiller@macconnect.com (Tom Stiller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:55:01 -0500 Organization: David Sarnoff Research Center Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> <5c4rhc$o1k@ccpnws.in2p3.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: quixote.sarnoff.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21921 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54339 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181387 comp.sys.mac.system:193419 In article <5c4rhc$o1k@ccpnws.in2p3.fr>, mullere@in2p3.fr (Eric Muller) wrote: >Bill Bumgarner (bbum@friday.com) wrote: >(some stuff deleted) >: If anything, Aladdin should release a version of Stuffit that can be >: used from the command line... I'd certainly pay for a tool that give me >: random access to my archives, a full-featured GUI w/drag-n-drop, and a >: comparably featured command line utility. > >If you use MPW you can have the Stuffit tools, they come with Stuffit Deluxe. >So all you have to do is buying MPW (it come with CodeWarrior, MrC compiler >and with the developper program from Apple) and Stuffit Deluxe. >Personnaly I prefer to use Stuffit Expander with drag and drop than the >MPW tools. StuffIt Deluxe includes a Control Panel called True Finder Integration (tm) which allows any (finder recognized) StuffIt archive to be manipulated like a folder. When it is enabled, you can double-click the archive to open it and navigate the subdirectories contained within it. If you drag a folder or file to another location, it will be unstuffed as it is moved. It seems like everything the original poster wanted. Tom Stiller -- Everyone is entitled to my opinion #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.texas.net!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ObjC Vs C++ (NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:43:49 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 8 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 In article <5b6dno$goj@news.next.com>, Eren_Kotan@next.com wrote: > id myArray = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@"One", @"Two", @"Three", nil]; I'm curious, why the NSxxx class names? I know the historical context, but is this important today? Seems somewhat unpleasing to the eye. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 22 Jan 1997 15:05:36 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5c5ac0$66a@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net> <32E403A3.788@concentric.net> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21923 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54357 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181418 comp.sys.mac.system:193438 On 01/21/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > Not in my case, my _only_ interest is the utilities. The kernel is fine > the way it is, and there are lots and lots of direct calls to other Unix > API's that seem just fine the way they are too. > > This thread is specifically about those utilities, they should be better. > I'm completely lost now... What utilities? And how should they be better? You've said you *don't* want to rip out the CLI either, so could you please explain again exactly what it is that you do want to rip out? Just all those annoying little files in /bin? Best wishes, mmalc. (Followups trimmed) -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 15:09:23 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5c5aj3$66n@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21924 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54358 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181419 comp.sys.mac.system:193439 On 01/22/97, Scott Maxwell wrote: > In article , maury@softarc.com > (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > That's right, it's all illogical. And the sky is indeed green on my > >planet. Happy now? > > > Ah, you live in central New Jersey do you? ;-) > No, I think he's just standing on his head... Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!swidir.switch.ch!nntp.coast.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.magg.net!news.bridge.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!138.220.104.78!news.worldbank.org!usenet From: Stefano Pagiola Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:22:40 -0500 Organization: World Bank Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32E622B0.4136@worldbank.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> <5c2n6k$1l8@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: envgcte1.worldbank.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21925 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54359 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181424 comp.sys.mac.system:193441 Jack Miller wrote: > > In article <5c2n6k$1l8@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford > > > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without *forcing* > > > users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need to see or use them > > > unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't mind. But what I saw of > > > NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that way, and the comments I've seen > > > here suggest that it hasn't changed in this respect. > > > > > I know of many NEXTSTEP users who don't know anything about Unix, and never > > will. They tend not to post here, though. What exactly was it about your > > encounter that gave you the idea that you *needed* a CLI. When was this? Here's one long-time NeXT user (since 1991) that knows just the bare minimum about Unix. Enough to use some of those Unix utilities which do not have a GUI equivalent, in the rare cases that I need to. (Example: after my hard disk crashed, I lost my backup software along with a lot of other things. I downloaded a new version from the net, but of course it was compressed. How do I uncompress the app whose purpose in life it is to help me uncompress files? I spent 2 minutes learning the bare minimum I needed to know about tar (with some help from friendly netizens), uncompressed the app, and promptly started using it rather than tar for all my future uncompressing needs.) -- Stefano Pagiola 850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.columbia.edu!panix!feed1.news.erols.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!EU.net!sun4nl!icgned!vuur!hans From: hans@vuur (Hans Mulder) Subject: Re: Librarian replacement X-Nntp-Posting-Host: vuur Message-ID: Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: IC Group X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <5b5j42$bh7@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D6864C.5DE6@steeldriving.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:34:12 GMT Lines: 11 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54363 comp.sys.next.programmer:21926 In <32D6864C.5DE6@steeldriving.com> Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@steeldriving.com) wrote: >Doesn't the new 4.0 Project Builder perform some sort of indexing? >Does that use parts of the Indexing Kit? Yes, the 4.0 Project Builder performs some sort of indexing, and it uses the Indexing Kit. Unfortunately, the Indexing Kit has not been ported to NT or Solaris, so those options in Project Builder's "Find" panel that use it are disabled in the NT and Solaris versions. -- HansM #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 16:23:29 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5c1cb7$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21927 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54374 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181446 comp.sys.mac.system:193469 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Asside from the fact that it would say "InputSproket shared library" > rather than "grep"? Or that programs could call them directly rather than > forking? Or that they would have OOPS interfaces? Isn't forking preferable when you consider a multiprocessing system that could toss the forked process off to another processor? I really doubt Apple and the NeXT wizards are going to overlook _that_ one, particularly since two and four processor Macs are already out there. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles W Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:28:49 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21928 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11100 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3646 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 15-Jan-97 Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective.. by Anders Pytte@plainfield. > Thanks for the info - I admit I am unsure of the size and performance > advantage of C++, since I have not done comparisons. Until you encounter a problem or do your own testing, may I suggest that you not worry about these issues? The general consensus around here is that Obj-C developers don't run into problems with the size or speed of Obj-C executables. > But you have misunderstood my intent. I have nothing at all against Obj-C, > in fact, I am excited by it. I did not mean that I feared giving up > programming habits, rather that I am accustomed to compensating for > shortcomings of languages through good design and good programming habits. Okay, so far, so good. I think you'll find that you don't need to compensate for the language nearly as much using Obj-C as you have to do in C++. We can also hope that the combination of Apple's and NeXT's resources will be able to improve the development environment even further. I hope they learn some things from Java and Delphi, although I'd rather have significant changes appear after the first release or two. > I would need to do the same with Obj-C due to its lack of explicit > multiple inheritance, operator overloading, etc. (am I correct here about > Obj-C?). And I don't want to hear any more bullshit about my being better > off without those features - when correctly used they enhance code design. Sure. Obj-C itself does not support MI or operator-overloading, but Obj-C++ does. People using pure Obj-C generally seem to use forwarding and delegation mechanisms, and/or protocols and categories in places where C++ programmers would use MI. I think Obj-C programs are much more understandable and much more maintainable than the comparible C++ versions. As for operator overloading, I regard that as potentially one of the greatest causes of problems in C++, for the reason that it creates a heavyweight context or dependancy on the aggregated program environment which makes code difficult to reuse in a simple fashion. This is one of the reasons that large C++ frameworks are hard to understand, debug, and never seem to be delivered on time. Primary example: Taligent. But if you want to write code which uses operator-overloading, you can. > My point is that choice of language is not as important as good > programming habits and good code design. Each language has its die-hard > advocates, ofcourse. But I expect that many like myself take the following > pragmatic view: > > 1. I want my current (huge) code base supported (atleast for a while). While it's up to Apple now, I would certainly hope that they will give you this. I believe they can, since NEXTSTEP already had the ability to integrate ObjC and C++ code for a while, now. > 2. I will use whatever language has the best support and most promise for > a given platform (or especially for multiple platforms). There are some nice aspects to Java (especially the package hierarchy for multiple namespaces), but it is not nearly as mature as Obj-C and the object libraries available for Obj-C. > If Apple blesses Obj-C, and I can use it (efficiently) to advance our > existing products and port them to other platforms, then i will bless > Obj-C too. Et Domine dixit: fiat absolvo, fili. :-) [ And my apologies to any Latin purists, since it's been _way_ too long to remember how to spell the declensions perfectly. ] -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.ucalgary.ca!acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca!bstone From: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 22 Jan 1997 15:57:02 GMT Organization: The University of Calgary Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5c5dce$f0q@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21929 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54380 comp.sys.mac.system:193476 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181457 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: > In article <5c17j7$1e44@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca > (Blake Stone) wrote: > > Apple has 6 months to get a developer's release out. In that > > time do you honestly believe they're going to design, write, > > test, and document an API to replace all of UNIX's command line > > functionality? > Can you find a single post in which I advocated this? Why else would you post, in an advocacy form, in the midst of a discussion on Apple's future OS plans: "In fact, I've been constantly and unwaveringly suggesting that all of them should indeed be API's, when in the current case they are not." > > I would love to see a brilliant OO API for every conceivable > > need, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen. > And as long as everyone shares this opinion, it will never get > better. You start holding your breath, and we'll see just how fast it gets better :-) I'm not sitting around waiting for it to happen. Instead, I wrote the ThreadKit for OOing the threading APIs in Mach. I wrote a standard object interface for card games, which became the definitive NeXTSTEP Solitaire. I wrote object interfaces to hide the differences between CGI and ISAPI. I've translated the object interfaces to DirectX to Delphi. I've written wrappers to hide MAPI behind an object interface. I'm making it better as fast as I can. I just don't expect to be done any time soon. What have you been doing? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Blake W. Stone bstone@dkw.com Technical Director - DKW Systems "Art may imitate life, but life http://www.dkw.com/bstone imitates TV" - Ani Difranco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 17:02:50 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21930 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54388 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181464 comp.sys.mac.system:193485 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > I don't know anyone who does this. Even the Mac > > people tend to put everything in the Applications folder or a > > subdirectory of it. > Balogna, I can't think of a single Mac I've every had the pleasure of > using that had all of it's programs arranged such, and that's a large > number of Macs (in the hundreds). That's just _wrong_. Actually it beats putting everything in the desktop folder ;) I said once and I'll say again, I could deal with having to put everything in the applications folder if I decided to treat it like it was a hard disk. It's very simple. Instead of having the hard disk icon on my screen, I'd have the application folder icon on my screen. Open it and it would look like a hard disk, with apps, documents, organized as I wanted them to be. Interestingly, if multiple people had separate applications folders and had them set up differently (perhaps with aliases/symbolic links for shared things so you could have the same thing in two different positions) then you'd have entirely separate customizable environments for each user, with the other user's files hidden from the first user (or revealed as 'another folder'). I could usually hide .bin and .etc etc etc, but in this paradigm if I showed them they would appear as other 'hard disks/folders/whatever' on the desktop. That would work, I do not require that my system files be visually contained in a folder that represents my hard disk. In fact some of the disk techniques like logical volumes etc. tend to break down the concept of 'hard disk icon' anyhow. It's _all_ a visual metaphor, an illusion, it's just in how you present it. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!leicester!usenet From: Michael Hudson Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:31:35 +0000 Organization: University of Leicester, UK Lines: 33 Message-ID: <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> Reply-To: none NNTP-Posting-Host: mac26.geol.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11102 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3648 comp.sys.next.programmer:21931 Greg Titus wrote: > > Michael Hudson writes: > > >I have just read in excess of twenty posts about "Multiple Inheritance > >(Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks)" that discussed the relative merits of > >Objective-C and C++. > > >Does Objective-C have templates? > > Nope. Don't need 'em. Templates are a hack to get around the > limitations in C++'s strong binding. When you want to manipulate > objects in a generic way in Objective-C you just declare your > arguments as "id" (any object), and the same method works for > everything instead of the compiler making multiple copies of the code > for every type of object you might use. [snip] > >The STL > > No, a lot of equivalent functionality is in NeXT's Foundation > framework. > OK. Can you write me a short bit of code that would sort an array of any type in Objective-C? (I don't really want a complete quicksort algorithm, but somethnig that shows it would be possible) -- Regards, Michael Hudson Please don't email this address - it's not mine. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news-relay.us.dell.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 13:31:12 -0600 From: marko@wgatg.com Subject: Re: DPS Hit Detection Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Message-ID: <853351061.18559@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service References: <5bg2e0$ar2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32DBDD3C.1EBAB5AF@screaming.org> <5bh10q$c1s@bignews.shef.ac.uk> X-Article-Creation-Date: Wed Jan 15 18:00:16 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 207.107.9.34 (keeper.cibcwg.com) X-Http-User-Agent: OmniWeb/2.1.2 OWF/1.0 X-Authenticated-Sender: marko@wgatg.com Lines: 42 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21932 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20321 In article , rex@mit.edu (Eric King) wrote: > Thanks for the info, unfortunately this is still requires quite a bit > more work than the GXHitTest**** family of functions. Boolean hittesting is > useful, but its nowhere near as useful as being able to hit test a graphic > structure and then given the object or objects that were hit. It looks as > if I'd have to implement several layers of abstraction on top of the PS > code defining the appearance of my widget. Ultimately what I want and what > GX provides are hierarchical container shapes that know which part of them > has been hit (with adjustable tolerance and depth :)) and which object in > my app that part is associated with. This is a true time saver. Eric: Now I see the misunderstanding here - we NeXT folks are perplexed about what's lacking in the hit testing, and you all are surprised that that's all there is to DPS. The missing piece of information though is that with NEXTSTEP/OpenStep, we use nested NSView subclasses for drawing, and "hit detection" is already provided for these - a view that is clicked receives a mouseDown: message if it wants. Furthermore, through a mechanism called the "responder chain," if a nested View fails to acknowledge a hit, then its superview is given the opportunity to acknowledge it. There is no real work involved here - you just implement the method and you'll receive notification of a hit within your bounds. If you need to specialize the hit test however, you just override the mouseDown: method and perform a geometric test, or as a fallback for complex shapes, use the DPS hit test routines (which for us serve to complete the business of hit detection, they aren't the sole source of hit detection mechanism). Mark -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 15:42:14 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> <5bj39f$lco@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as10s05.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21933 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54408 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181509 comp.sys.mac.system:193517 In article <5bj39f$lco@crl.crl.com>, mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: >But really, the existing system works pretty well. Put shared apps >in /LocalApps, personal apps in ~/Apps. Fixing this should be >a pretty low priority, maybe deffered until there's some sort of >object store. > True. Personally, I hope they spend some time integrating file/creator types into the system so extensions aren't necessary. That's more annoying to me (personally) than much else. -- -------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm@nic.com "We are a fact-gathering organization only... the minute the FBI begins making recommendations on what should be done with its information, it becomes a Gestapo." -- J. Edgar Hoover #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:00:13 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32E655AD.55D3@exnext.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21934 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54414 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181514 comp.sys.mac.system:193526 Travis Butler wrote: > Also, every GUI-driving-CLI system I've seen has had 'holes' where the > developers didn't provide a GUI shell for a CLI command... so that a user > has to learn the CLI to get some things done. The Mac GUI lets you do > *everything* - either directly or through GUI utilities. No, the Mac GUI does not let you do *everything*. If there is something that is not in the GUI, you *cannot* do it. Unless, of course, some nice programmer comes along and writes a program that lets it happen. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!senator-bedfellow.mit.edu!usenet From: Pascal Chesnais Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: mktime() Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:32:20 -0500 Organization: MIT Media Laboratory Lines: 5 Message-ID: <32E65D33.446B@mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plan-9.media.mit.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; OSF1 V3.2 alpha) We are having problems here with mktime under nextstep 3.3 has anyone else run into this? Putting today's time gets us a wrong return value (on the order of 3 year!!!) pasc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:20:18 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c4a19$bja@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5c4a19$bja@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54416 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181519 comp.sys.mac.system:193530 comp.sys.next.programmer:21936 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 22-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by William Raphael Hix@port > 2) A stripped down version of the BSD emulated services, just the minimum > necessary for OpenStep with boot handled by some means other than shell > scripts. No CLI app or non-GUI access to BSD commands, to minimize the > size of the distribution as well as Apple's potential problems > supporting such things to the general Mac community. There are some problems I see with that suggestion. Let me present just the ones that would affect Mac users and not discuss any of the problems that would affect Unix users. 1) Apple has to re-write the system boot procedure they are getting from NeXT. This takes time, and has a reasonable chance of being buggy for a release or two. 2) Apple has to re-write most of the tools they get from NeXT, including the developer tools (the compiler, ProjectBuilder.app, InterfaceBuilder.app, etc), the system administration tools (NetInfoManager, NFSManager, UserManager, PrintManager, etc), and the networking and system functionality currently provided by Unix daemons (sendmail, nfsd, inetd, telnetd, named, etc). This will take lots of time, and, with 100% certainty will have bugs that will take quite some time to exterminate. 3) Remember Copland? Apple already tried and _failed_ to write their own replacement operating system for MacOS 7.x. While the brain-trust they've gained by acquiring NeXT's engineers would undoubtedly be of assistance in creating a new operating system, NeXT's engineers have already created their own operating system to do preemptive multitasking, good virtual memory, and so forth-- NEXTSTEP, which is based off of a reasonably sophisticated Mach kernel and BSD 4.x Unix and GNU utilities. 4) It removes functionality that some current Mac users have said that they would like. There are some Mac users who have stated that a CLI interface with Unix utilities would be nice to have every once in a while. Although no doubt that admission infuriates those Mac advocates who are anti-Unix and/or anti-CLI. And, yes, I am familiar with AU/X. One of the reason that AU/X was not popular with either normal Mac users or with normal Unix users was not because it was a Unix OS-- it's because AU/X was one of the worst Unix implementations ever made kludged on top of the Mac interface. NEXTSTEP is everything AU/X should have been, and much, much more. If one of the reasons we're having to argue about Rhapsody including Unix is due to Mac users remembering AU/X-- _please_ _PLEASE_ go use NEXTSTEP. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:38:15 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <0mtZ27a00iV_86I8Yp@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <32E5F50A.2637@spvi.com> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:193531 comp.sys.next.programmer:21937 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181520 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54417 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 22-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Steve Spicklemire@spvi.c > OK.. so what happens when I get my shiny new GUI app that expects > 'system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... )' to work and the user neglected to > install 'tar'? Are all these unix utilities so enourmous that we really > want to risk breaking so much code? They are 15 MB on my machine running NEXTSTEP 3.3. However, removing them does not mean that you would save 15 MB from every installation of Rhapsody, since Rhapsody would have to ship with some sort of replacement in order to provide the (now missing) functionality that lets the machine boot and do things like networking. > I would think the whole spiel compares in size (more or less) to a complete > installation of any modern office productivity suite. :-) Less. MS-Office '97 is what? 80 MB? -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-admin From: paul@pth.com (Paul Haddad) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 22 Jan 1997 19:24:42 GMT Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 47 Message-ID: <5c5phq$8kr@news.internetmci.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> Reply-To: paul@pth.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phaddad.metro.mci.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11104 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3654 comp.sys.next.programmer:21938 In <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> Michael Hudson wrote: > > OK. Can you write me a short bit of code that would sort an array of any > type in Objective-C? > (I don't really want a complete quicksort algorithm, but somethnig that > shows it would be possible) > > Easy. Assuming you have an array of objects called arrayToBeSorted. sortedArray = [arrayToBeSorted sortedArrayUsingSelector:@selector(compare:)]; Just make sure that the objects in the array respond to the compare: method (NSString, NSValue, NSDate all do). Writting the compare: method basically boils down to comparing two objects and returning <1 , 0, or >1. Here's a couple possible implementation @interface ObjectToBeSorted // Assuming internalValue returns an int - compare:anotherObject { if ([self internalValue] < [anotherObject internalValue]) return NSOrderedDescending; if ([self internalValue] > [anotherObject internalValue]) return NSOrderedAscending; return NSOrderedSame; } @end @interface ObjectToBeSorted // Assuming internalValue returns an NSString - compare:anotherObject { return [[self internalValue] compare:[anotherObject internalValue]]; } @end That's all you need, the standard NSArray takes care of sorting. If you want a quick sort or some other kind of sort you can always subclass NSArray... See ya, -- Paul Haddad #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: Bill Bumgarner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Emacs for OpenStep Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:46:55 -0500 Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 10 Message-ID: <32E779DF.2A65@friday.com> References: <32E52CE3.1A0B@friday.com> <7x4tgay96w.fsf@burrow.muc.de> Reply-To: bbum@friday.com NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh2-port74.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) To: Markus G X-Priority: Normal Thank you for the suggestions, I will apply them to my monstrous initialization environment (that works under Xemacs, emacs .28 or .34; under NeXTSTEP, NT, or X windows). Unfortunately, it doesn't fix the problem at hand. Is anyone working on a port of the emacs-for-nextstep to OpenStep? b.bum #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: kpompei@xmission.com (Kevin Pompei) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:35:13 -0700 Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900) Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <0mtZ27a00iV_86I8Yp@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: slc157.modem.xmission.com X-Newsreader: MicroPlanet Gravity v1.01 (30 Day Trial) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:193544 comp.sys.next.programmer:21940 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181540 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54429 In article <0mtZ27a00iV_86I8Yp@andrew.cmu.edu>, cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu spouts forth... > Less. MS-Office '97 is what? 80 MB? > Try 200MB! Kevin Pompei #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:37:58 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21941 comp.sys.mac.system:193557 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54438 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181550 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> I don't see why anyone would want to make their computer >> harder to use, but then, that's just my preference for thinking >> rationally showing through.... > > Oh, it's terribly rational for the computer to dictate where the user > places files, rather than the other way around. Correct. A multiuser computer system has conventions for where you should place common files (like applications, fonts, and other such resources) which are supposedly intended for use by all users. Such a system _prevents_ users from interfering with the files of other users or the OS itself unless that user has special permissions. This is also the primary reason why Unix systems are largely immune to viruses. However, nothing prevents a user from placing their files in whatever fashion they choose within their home directory (and whereever else they have the appropriate permissions for). For that matter, single-user computer systems have some of those conventions too-- what else did you think the special nature of the "System folder" represents under MacOS? > You must use some other definition of "rational". Obviously. Are you willing to accept empirical evidence from the real world as to which of our respective definitions is more valid, or does that not interest you? >> No, it's not, although I am unsurprised to discover that a Mac advocate >> has not had exposure to large computer networks administered by an >> organization. > > I've RUN large networks administered by an organization. You're kidding, right? If this is actually true, (a) provide some details, and (b) why aren't you making any sense? How can you possibly have "administered" a large network of computers (presumably Macs) if you did not have some conventions for what was on each computer and where such common functionality was to be located? How did you figure out how many licenses of various software packages were needed? >> For example, CMU has hundreds of Macs in the clusters >> with a very consistent filesystem layout. > > Bully for them. I believe you'll find that your experiences in > university and the commercial world will be largely different. Some are, some aren't. So far, I've never encountered a company when I was doing consulting which did not have conventions for the way a multiuser machine's filesystem(s) should be arranged. The point was, I was showing a real-world example of roughly as many Macs that did have a convention for filesystem layout as you stated that you were familiar with which did not have such a convention. And this refutes your attempt to claim that Macs in general do not have such conventions. >> Most Mac users here like the idea, so they generally arrange their >> computers in similar ways to the cluster machines > > What cluster machines? The computer systems in public areas at CMU are known as 'computer clusters'. Hence, the term 'cluster machines', which are the machines described above with "CMU has hundreds of Macs..." -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:53:03 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 99 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21942 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181551 comp.sys.mac.system:193558 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54439 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 22-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by William Raphael Hix@port >: Tar is of a great use to many people out there, isn't that obvious >: since almost everyone is adding its functionality and there are free >: versions of it available? > > Tar is of great use to Unix users. I use tar on my Unix box to aggregate > files which I then compress and download to my Mac where Stuffit > uncompresses and untars them. But most Mac users never encounter tar > files since Mac software distribution is done by Stuffit/BinHex. > But you expect Rhapsody software distribution to work like NeXTStep? I hope that Rhapsody uses NeXT's packages and Installer.app, yes. Normal NEXTSTEP users never invoke tar themselves-- they use GUI tools like Installer.app and Opener.app which use tar internally. If you look back a few weeks, I described exactly how easy Installer.app and Opener.app are to use, and the fact that you get functionality like receipts (for uninstalling software and for showing what software has been installed on a system), multilanguage support, and FAT binary support. Heck, even Maury seemed to like Installer's functionality, although I deliberately never mentioned that .pkg were wrappers around a tar'ed and compress'ed file along with some small text files and an icon. :-) > Ports of apps from Unix to Rhapsody? Sure hope so. Doesn't any Mac user see some advantages to being able to run your own personal web server on your own machine, or to be able to send and receive electronic mail quickly and efficiently? [ ... ] >: >If this is then why bother including it on everyone's disk? >: >: Why? Well, lets see.. >: >: Its a universally available tool on ALL machines, without depending >: on owning a third party product. This means that an Apple user who >: downloads something from the Net has a tool to start from. > > But it doesn't do anything for a Mac user since Mac software in not in > tar format. Perhaps for Rhapsody this will change, but I think that > you are assuming things which aren't decide yet. In that sense, this is what everyone on these newsgroups are doing! No doubt Apple and NeXT have a lot of decisions to make which have not been made yet. Possibly, although it's _far_ less likely-- some of the debate that goes on here in Usenet will have some influence on the decisions they make. It would be to our collective advantage in the long term if we can make discussions about Rhapsody as useful as we can, since it might make Rhapsody a better operating system. Prosletizing the "one true Mac way" to the point where someone at Apple gets disgusted enough to publicly disagree with your slander of DPS, or arguing that we have to rip Unix out of Rhapsody in order to save three dollars in disk space but screw up almost every aspect of NeXT's technologies, are, in my opinion, some of the most pointless and idiotic arguments I've ever seen on Usenet. _Why_ be so brain-damaged? [ ... ] >: If they pressure Apple to drop basic functionality like this, then >: Apple should tell them to take a leap. > > What a NeXT user sees as basic functionality might seem like wasted disk > space to a Mac user. Dropping them also reduces Apple's support load, > perhaps lowering the cost. [ ... ] Hold on a second. At the end of this article I'm responding to, you said: > Mac users are largely happy with what they have, if only it'd run stably, > in protected memory with pre-emptive multitasking. The combination of the Mach kernel and Unix utilities provides the functionality that you say Mac users would want. You can't rip the Unix layer out from between Mach and NeXT's software tools without seriously impacting that functionality, because Apple would have to write an as-yet-imaginary middle layer to replace that functionality. Do you think something like that is simply appear out of thin air? Nope-- it would take lots of time and development effort to get 1.0 version done, and would take even more time and effort to get stable and reliable. [ ... ] -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 20:40:25 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5c5tvp$jfu@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21943 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54442 comp.sys.mac.system:193568 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181560 In article , Scott Maxwell wrote: >In article <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >>In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, >>Alan Lovejoy wrote: >> >>>Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. >>> >>>I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously >>>make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... >> >>Why? >> >Why not? Because it's so easy to use, and because a lot of existing code uses it. What would you gain by removing it? -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 20:58:20 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 58 Message-ID: <5c5v1c$6t4@news.xmission.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21944 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54449 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181575 comp.sys.mac.system:193583 Alan Lovejoy wrote: > Charles William Swiger wrote: > > My point was that an API for the majority of external commands is not > > available. Nor would creating such API for every command be practical > > or even desirable. > > I agree is't not available. And until it is, the CLI is necessary. > And a CLI would still be a good idea after such a library was > available, because it's a programming language (and the typical GUI > is not). > > However, I think such a library of useful utility classes/methods > is very desirable. Code reuse: it's a good idea. That's where the MiscKit comes in...in being particularly germane to the current example, there is even a MiscMail object! (It is usually used to open up a window in the Mail app of the user's choice and programmatically compose a message for the user, filling in the subject: and to: lines for "suggenstion box" features and such.) I guess that's a case of hooking up to an existing API, but the MiscKit's object (a Facade pattern) makes the access a lot cleaner, and if the underlying API ever changes, apps using the MiscKit will just need to link against a new kit. I'm currently working with someone to create a framework of Message objects to simplify posting mail, news, or other types of messages. Hopefully it will be available in a month or two. :-) But, the point is this: the MiscKit is a case in point--APIs that we've felt are generally useful, but lacking in NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, are what we have created. We haven't recreated every API, but we have done a *lot*. A quick look at the kit manifest or docs on http://www.misckit.com/ will convince anyone of that. I don't think that Apple should necessarily be expected to create all these APIs, and in the time frame they have right now, they can't do it anyway. That's why community support like the MiscKit is such a good thing! One interesting thing to note: a lot of these APIs, when turned into objects, are very tricky to do well. Getting a good API seems to take several iterations. I've noticed that NeXT has added to OPENSTEP improved versions of many of the APIs that have been in the NEXTSTEP version of the MiscKit. I don't know that they actually borrowed our ideas or code--in fact, I suspect not--but the NeXT versions do tend to be better than our first generation tries, so they probably at least learned a little from our mistakes. (I do know that several of the AppKit and Foundation engineers are cognizant of what we're doing, though I don't know what degree, if any, of cross pollination occurs.) Of note is that eventually these APIs _are_ finding their way back into the NeXT API... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: More on Power Management! Date: 22 Jan 1997 21:19:07 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison Lines: 25 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c608b$40qc@news.doit.wisc.edu> Reply-To: giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: f182-110.net.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I've done more research since my last message and found a set of routines in the library libDriver.a. A few of these are used by the AMD scsi driver example. If anyone has any clue about how to use these (parameters, return values, etc), I'd love to know. I wish NeXT would just give me the damn header file or some documentation on them. I don't know why they're keeping it so secret. Here are the routines: PMGetPowerEvent PMGetPowerStatus PMRestoreDefaults PMSetPowerManagement PMSetPowerState Thanks! -- Michael Giddings giddings@chem.wisc.edu giddings@barbarian.com (608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851 http://www.barbarian.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Can one inherit from a class cluster? How? Date: 22 Jan 1997 21:22:59 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c60fj$40qc@news.doit.wisc.edu> Reply-To: giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: f182-110.net.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I was trying to implement a subclass of NSData that had an extra instance variable in it designating the endian-ness of the machine it originated on (so I could convert it appropriately when using Distributed Objects across different architectures). The problem is, I can't seem to create a subclass of NSData because it isn't really a class - it's a class cluster (it doesn't give an error until I try to create an instance of the subclass at runtime, then it fails). Has anyone run into this problem? A solution? The kluge I am using right now is just having another container object that holds an NSData object. But there are a number of inconveniences in this approach. Advice appreciated. Thanks -- Michael Giddings giddings@chem.wisc.edu giddings@barbarian.com (608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851 http://www.barbarian.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!aadt.sdt.com!ericsmalling From: Eric_Smalling@amrcorp.com (Eric Smalling) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 21:08:42 GMT Organization: SABRE Decision Technologies http://www.amrcorp.com Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5c5vmp$ab1@aadt.sdt.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.9.108.228 X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:193599 comp.sys.next.programmer:21947 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181588 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54454 In article <0mtZ27a00iV_86I8Yp@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger <32E5F50A.2637@spvi.com> wrote: >Less. MS-Office '97 is what? 80 MB? HA! My MS-Office '97 Directory Proporty window reports over 135MB!! (Not including whatever it may have installed in my WINNT directory) ____________________________________________________________________ Eric A. Smalling SABRE Decision Technologies - Ft Worth, Texas USA --=== ------=== The Any views expressed are mine alone and are in no ----------- SABRE way the views of AMR or any of it's subsidiaries. ------=== Group --=== email:Eric_Smalling@amrcorp.com Corp Web Site: http://www.amrcorp.com/sabr_grp/sdt/sdt.htm ____________________________________________________________________ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:40:50 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32E68962.52E@exnext.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <0mtZ27a00iV_86I8Yp@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:193600 comp.sys.next.programmer:21948 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181589 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54455 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 22-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld > Exclusive: App.. by Steve Spicklemire@spvi.c > > I would think the whole spiel compares in size (more or less) to a complete > > installation of any modern office productivity suite. :-) > > Less. MS-Office '97 is what? 80 MB? 130 or so, I think. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:39:56 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <32E420C6.17B7@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <32E420C6.17B7@concentric.net> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21949 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181592 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54458 comp.sys.mac.system:193601 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Alan Lovejoy@concentric. >> Code reuse is a principle which states that it is usually easier and >> better to use preexisiting code rather than reinvent the wheel by >> re-writing functionality that is already available. >> >> I understand what code reuse means. Do you? >> >> Apparently not, because you are arguing that we should not reuse the >> preexisting code available in the form of the Unix utilities, and should >> instead write APIs and an implementation in the C system library for all >> of those utilities. That is the opposite of "code reuse"! > > Ahem. Now whose being offensive? > > Here's the most offensive part: you're wrongly attributing to me a position > I have never stated, and in fact disagree with: namely, that the CLI utility > commands should not be used, or should be eliminated. Hmm. I'd have to look through a few hundred articles to see precisely what you said. You do agree that (1) you made the suggestion that the API for the Unix CLI utilities should be abstracted into a library, and (2) that you make that comment apparently in support of Maury's suggestion without ever mentioning that you did not agree with the rest of his suggestion to make those utilities optional? Regardless of what you think about the second part, your suggestion to recode the functionality of the Unix CLI utiltities into a library is still the "opposite of 'code reuse'", since that functionality already exists. > If the code in the UNIX shell commands were refactored and abstracted into > utility functions with a standard API, the universe of reusable code would > be increased. Agreed. > (And of course, the original shell commands would still be available with > the same functionality and external interfaces). I hope this is clear, and > does not need any further proof. It's clear. So far, so good-- [ ... ] >> >> The point is, regardless of what it's called or whether it's just one or >> several libraries-- there is no point at all of creating tens of >> thousands of system calls to replace the Unix command line utilities >> unless that mammoth API is available on all of the hardware/operating >> system combinations that you're replacing the Unix CLI utilities, >> otherwise programmers won't be able to depend on all of the API being >> available, which would make it far less useful. > > So no OS should ever provide a library that has any function not also > available on any other OS? Or just not available on any other Unix? Not at all. But I expect the process to be an evolutionary one that will take a great deal of time. In the meantime, the Unix utility API is pretty darn useful because it provides some important functionality. > And a technical point: a function in a library is not a system call. It's > only a system call if the function actually runs as part of the kernel, in > the kernel address space, with kernel permissions. That's the standard definition of the term 'system call' under Unix; other operating systems use that term more generally to refer to functionality provided by the standard system library. Since I've been talking to a Mac audience a lot, I've been trying to avoid using purely Unix terminology. [ ... ] -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!fido.asd.sgi.com!news From: Michael Taylor Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:52:02 -0500 Organization: Alias|Wavefront Lines: 49 Message-ID: <32E68C02.7D55@aw.sgi.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: opus.tor.aw.sgi.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; IRIX 6.2 IP22) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21950 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54459 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181594 comp.sys.mac.system:193603 William Raphael Hix wrote: > > You are taking this too personally. I'm not trying to rain on you parade. > Apple has said they will continue to support OpenStep on Intel and > Solaris, but I haven't heard anything clear from them about future > development, either as Rhapsody on other hardware or independently. For those interested, Apple has thrown out another small tidbit of information for our consumption. Draw what conclusions you will. The following is taken from a letter from Gil Amelio posted to the comp.sys.next.announce news group on Jan 21st. It promises future development of cross platform tools. It seems to indicate that Apple technologies will be ported to other OpenStep platforms. ------ Excerpt ---------- OpenStep Enterprise. We are also committed to continue the development of OpenStep Enterprise and OpenStep Developer, and to enhance them over time. One example is the developer API documentation, which we plan to update and improve. We plan to continue selling OpenStep Enterprise to current and future customers in markets where it is being sold now, with the same sales and support resources. Finally, the OpenStep API and development tools will be a core component of Rhapsody the code name for Apple's next generation operating system. This will increase the installed base of OpenStep many times over, helping ensure its acceptance as a viable and popular development environment. Cross Platform Support. Apple will maintain NeXT's commitment to cross-platform and cross-processor support, and will continue to develop, sell, and support products currently available, including those for Windows NT, Solaris, HP-UX, and NEXTSTEP. In addition, we plan to add support with Rhapsody on PowerPC processors. Cross platform support for WebObjects and OpenStep aligns perfectly with Apple's overall strategy of moving core software technologies such as QuickTime cross platform. We firmly believe that Apple's acquisition of NeXT will increase the market acceptance for the NeXT technology in which you've invested time, resources, and money. Apple is firmly committed to enhancing, selling, and supporting this technology in the future, and to providing NeXT customers with innovative technology for cross-platform development of mission-critical, enterprise solutions. -- /\/\ike Taylor | Mail: mtaylor@aw.sgi.com Alias|Wavefront Toronto | Voice: (416) 362-8558 x8740 Developer, API Team =D--' http://reality.sgi.com/mtaylor #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!dcn132.dcn.davis.ca.us!user From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:35:30 -0800 Organization: Bridge Family Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dcn130.dcn.davis.ca.us X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21951 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54468 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181611 comp.sys.mac.system:193611 UNIX is a strange beastie to those of us looking in at from the Mac side. Years ago in another incarnation I remember OS's that were refered to as "User Friendly". The Mac was just invented and, in my household, it was better than "User Friendly." It was "User Chummy". UNIX has always appeared to me as "User Hostile" with a command-line interface that was at once cryptic, terse to the point of rudeness, and documented for geeks not real users. The shell programs struck me as quite useful -- if you could get over the price of admission -- which was quite steep. And then there was moving from one system to another in which the system administrator had hacked the kernel in some way, or forgotten one of the 10,000 security loop holes or . . . You get the drift -- my early UNIX experience was not positive. So imagining my Mac taken over by a version of this system is somewhat alarming. BUT....only somewhat. UNIX is an adult operating system. I imagine that I'd start my system once a day if I chose not to leave it on all the time. The file system would be safe as houses. File system performance, I hope, will be good. But I don't want to turn on my Mac and find a totally different look and feel than what I'm used to. I want Dantz Retrospect to back up my hard disk. I want new products to install swiftly and cleanly and where I want them to go (it's my computer not the software company -- I'll take responsibiliity for screwups). That being the case I don't care what's under the hood: UNIX, Mach, Be, or squirrels in a cage -- as long as it works. Now, if you can add well designed command-line environment, I'll take the time to re-learn how to use it. That's fine. If UNIX utilties have to be there to get the system on its feet in the morning (I use coffee but if shell scripts are needed: be my guest just don't TELL me about it unless something terrible happens that I need to worry about -- then tell me something that makes sense instead of cryptic commands or Error 51 or something [that's a dig at Apple too]). And please, above everything else, make sure my system is secure so while I'm on the net some hacker in Cleveland doesn't actuate some obscure UNIX bug and thrash the hell out of my system. That hasn't happened to my Mac (I don't rate a Ping of Death I guess -- no complaints). But I'm DYING for the OpenStep development environment. Objective-C just makes so much sense. We're talking major league lust here. I'd steal and old black cube just to play with it. So, with that and SmalltalkAgents and maybe Prograph CPX I'll be a happy guy. And then Apple can chose to add different appearances so NeXT folks think they're on OpenStep or something and my wife will think her Mac is a little neater and a whole LOT more stable while she runs FreeHand and PageMaker and Photoshop. And I can play with Bryce. And it'll just work and I won't EVER know what's lurking inside the box unless I have this dying need to pull up a terminal window and write a script to devise a histogram of how many files of each file-name-length I have. (a straight-forward shell script I'm sure) Regards, Adam Bridge #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 01:37:59 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5bk0pn$f3i@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21952 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54471 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181615 comp.sys.mac.system:193615 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >> In any event, your entire argument here is weak and irrelevant. > > You're right of course, who would want something like standardization? > >> issue was whether Rhapsody should include Unix utilities. I argued >> that it should, because many developers of GUI applications could use >> them to save time. Your response is to assert that Unix utilities are >> "nonstandard". > > No, my argument is, and was sidestepped, that these functions are better >off provided vias modern interfaces rather than command line tools. > >> Rhapsody! Whatever Rhapsody includes is a de facto standard Rhapsody >> utility, and may be used in Rhapsody GUI apps. > > So they should get rid of the command line stuff then. If nothing else, you need the command line stuff to run scripts. That's reason enough for me to keep it in. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:09:14 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 33 Message-ID: <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net> References: <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c5tvp$jfu@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50014.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21953 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54474 comp.sys.mac.system:193618 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181618 Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > > In article , > Scott Maxwell wrote: > >In article <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > > > >>In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, > >>Alan Lovejoy wrote: > >> > >>>Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. > >>> > >>>I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously > >>>make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... > >> > >>Why? > >> > >Why not? > > Because it's so easy to use, and because a lot of existing code uses it. > > What would you gain by removing it? Removing it? I don't advocate that at all. Reimplementing the Unix shell utilities so that their implementations are less monolithic and are based on reuseable sub-functions is all I am recommending. And even then, only as time and resources permit (which may mean never...sigh). -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 17:53:29 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21954 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54479 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181626 comp.sys.mac.system:193631 In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > In any event, your entire argument here is weak and irrelevant. You're right of course, who would want something like standardization? > issue was whether Rhapsody should include Unix utilities. I argued > that it should, because many developers of GUI applications could use > them to save time. Your response is to assert that Unix utilities are > "nonstandard". No, my argument is, and was sidestepped, that these functions are better off provided vias modern interfaces rather than command line tools. > Rhapsody! Whatever Rhapsody includes is a de facto standard Rhapsody > utility, and may be used in Rhapsody GUI apps. So they should get rid of the command line stuff then. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!news.glink.net.hk!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.124.68.65!newsfeed.gte.net!cust34.max55.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net!user From: ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer, Subject: LAMG Dev. SIG, Jan. 28 Date: 22 Jan 1997 21:58:38 GMT Organization: Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: cust34.max55.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11106 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:59254 comp.sys.next.programmer:21955 LAMG Developer SIG (LAMG, formerly Los Angeles Macintosh Group. Looks like we officially changed the name just in time. :-) Meeting: Tuesday, Jan 28, 7:00 PM NeXT color machine demo and developer features presentation. Review of CodeWarrior 11. Discussion of Apple Computer system software directions. The new CodeWarrior 11 was mailed out (bulk mail) on Wed. Jan. 15. Just to make sure we have it in time, MW is mailing me another one via Priority Mail. One way or another we will have it for the meeting. After I made some phone calls to BANG (Bay Area NeXT Group), Earnest Prabhakar called me from LA. We eventually scared up a Color NeXT machine which he has agreed to bring to our meeting and demo features, developer tools, etc. This should be a great, (now) useful and informative demo relating to our future. We will get a peek through the veil of our shotgun bride and we won't have to endure the indignity of demoing it on a PC like I thought we were going to. We're not sure it will work with the Proxima, so real developers to the front, lookie-loos to the rear, please. The agenda will be: 1. Quick review of CW-11. 2. NeXT Demo, OpenStep, Interface Builder, etc. 3. Polite Q&A and discussion about NeXT technologies. 4. Raucous discussion of everything known, unknown, rumored, inferred, insinuated, surmised, and hoped for in the future AppleOS. (Bring Kevlar vests, brass knuckles, or whatever you think appropriate :-) We made one attempt to gather questions and concerns from developers to submit to Marco Landi since he promised me personally he would respond to these. Probably due to the holidays, there were only a few responses and insufficient time to get it together and have an impact, so it was not submitted. I still think we should try to compile such a list and send it while it might still be effective. Please give me any such questions in writing and I will try to get it together. Of course, if any of you would like to volunteer for this task, please let me know. I'll think about if for at least 5 sec. before handing it over to you. MEETING LOCATION, TIME, DIRECTIONS: LAMG Developer SIG meetings are at 7:00 PM on the last Tuesday of each month (except December). The LAMG Resource Center is at 1640 5th St., #220, Santa Monica, CA. From 405, take SM Freeway (10) west past Lincoln to 4th & 5th St. exit. On exiting, immediately take the 5th St. right turn. The building will be on your immediate left. Park on frontage road or at Mall on 4th St. (3 hr. free). For additional info, you can contact me directly. -- G. Gordon Apple, PhD The Ed4U Project Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Redondo Beach, CA ga@ed4u.com www.ed4u.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 22 Jan 1997 22:26:34 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 325 Message-ID: <5c646q$6t4@news.xmission.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11107 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3664 comp.sys.next.programmer:21956 Michael Hudson wrote: > OK. Can you write me a short bit of code that would sort an > array of any type in Objective-C? > (I don't really want a complete quicksort algorithm, but > somethnig that shows it would be possible) Absolutely! However, the one I'm going to point you at is a little bit more complex than what you are expecting, because it does more than you ask for. :-) This example is found in the freely available MiscKit, by the way. Look at the MiscListSorting category... Add this in a category on NeXT's List object and suddenly all list objects have the ability to sort--on any key you specify: /* * This is O((n)(n)) which isn't great but it was easy to code. * it would be better to use a quicker sort routine instead * which is O(nlog(n)) [For future implementations, right? :-)] */ - sortUsing:(SEL)aSelector ascending:(BOOL)aBool { unsigned int c,d; BOOL found; int compareValue; compareValue = (aBool ? -1 : 1); for (c = 1; c < [self count]; c++){ found = NO; d = c-1; while (!found) { /* move to left until find right place */ if ([self compareUsing:aSelector objectAt:d+1 :d] == compareValue) { [self swap:d+1 with:d]; d--; } else { found = YES; } } } return self; } Note that you need to write these two methods: - (int)compareUsing:(SEL)aSelector objectAt:(unsigned int)pos1 :(unsigned int)pos2 - swap:(unsigned int)pos1 with:(unsigned int)pos2 The latter is easy: - swap:(unsigned int)pos1 with:(unsigned int)pos2 { if ([self objectAt:pos1] && [self objectAt:pos2]){ id temp = [self objectAt:pos1]; dataPtr[pos1] = [self objectAt:pos2]; dataPtr[pos2] = temp; } return self; } But the compare method is the tricky one. Since it is long, I've appended it to this message. Why is it long? Let's look at what it does... The compare method is cool because you get to choose *how* the objects are compared. Pick a method that all the objects implement such as -compare: and then pass that method name to the compare routine and it will perform the appropriate comparisons. Since we don't know the return type of the method, we query the runtime system and then use a case statement to handle the comparison for any return type that a method can send back. This means that well do the right thing when comparing objects whether they return ints, floats, or char strings when queried. This flexibility means I can: (a) stick any object I like into a List object (that ability was already there in NeXT's object) (b) I can sort on _any_ key: -age, -length -- _whatever_ I want (c) The sort key doesn't have to exist at compile time Let me explain (c). Objective C is flexible enough I can write an app and allow it to load in bundles (ie, a plug-in). Let's say that the plug in defines a new type of object. I can take the existing List object, fill it with the new object, and sort on a key defined by the new object--which probably didn't exist when this was compiled. In fact, I could have a textfield in my app where I can type in the method to query when sorting and the app could pass that on to the above sorting routine! (Usually, you wouldn't do it quite that way, of course...) I'm not claiming that this is the best code, and it certainly is a more complex example than most would hand you. The complexity is due to the fact that this is about as general a solution as can be imagined, and that generality bloats the code a bit. :-) As an example of how you could make this whole thing a *lot* simpler, for the case where all the objects in your list respond to the -compareTo:caseSensitive: method, like a MiscString does, you can use this code (also from the MiscKit): // Two C wrappers so that the qsort() library function is happy static int stringValueCompare(const void *arg1, const void *arg2) { MiscString *str1 = *(id *)arg1; MiscString *str2 = *(id *)arg2; return [str1 compareTo:str2 caseSensitive:YES]; } static int noCaseStringValueCompare(const void *arg1, const void *arg2) { MiscString *str1 = *(id *)arg1; MiscString *str2 = *(id *)arg2; return [str1 compareTo:str2 caseSensitive:NO]; } // The sorting method - miscStringSortCaseSensitive:(BOOL)aFlag // added by DAY { // Danger: we don't first check to assure that all objects can // respond to -compareTo:caseSensitive: and we'll crash and burn // if they don't, so beware! if (aFlag) qsort(NX_ADDRESS(self), [self count], sizeof(id), stringValueCompare); else qsort(NX_ADDRESS(self), [self count], sizeof(id), noCaseStringValueCompare); return self; } That can also be attached to any container via a category. Note that we're making assumptions about the layout of the List object's memory and configuring the qsort() call appropriately, so this should be treated as a method making access to private variables. It works because we know what we're doing, but it is dangerous practice since we don't control the implementation of the List object. Still, any object that responds to the method, be it a MiscString or other object, will work for this one. The trick here is that you can't chane the comparison key. Note that a clever programmer could fix up the C wrapper functions above and the qsort call in such a way that the method can be altered--using the code appended below to handle the different comparison types...so that you don't have to use the slow sort routine given at the first. (Lack of time has kept me from doing it; I've bigger fish to fry right now.) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #define COMPARE_RESULT(A,B) ( ((A) < (B)) ? -1 : ( ((A) == (B)) ? 0 : 1) ) - (int)compareUsing:(SEL)aSelector objectAt:(unsigned int)pos1 :(unsigned int)pos2 { Method methodStruct; if ([self objectAt:pos1] && [self objectAt:pos2]){ methodStruct = class_getInstanceMethod([[self objectAt:pos1] class],(SEL)aSelector); if (!aSelector || !methodStruct){ NXLogError("[%s:%s]: no get selector for object at %d", [[self class] name],sel_getName(_cmd),pos1); return 0; } /* Here i am checking the return type of the the method (Well I hope that I am checking) * (the Return type of the method) */ switch(methodStruct->method_types[0]){ case _C_ID: { id val1 = ((id(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); id val2 = ((id(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); if ([val1 respondsTo:@selector(compare:)]){ return (int)[val1 perform:@selector(compare:) with:val2]; }else{ NXLogError("[%s:%s]: can't compare object values of \"%s\":%u and \"%s\":%u", [[self class] name],sel_getName(_cmd),[[val1 class] name],pos1,[[val2 class] name],pos2); } } break; case _C_SHT: { short int val1 = ((short int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); short int val2 = ((short int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_USHT: { unsigned short int val1 = ((unsigned short int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); unsigned short int val2 = ((unsigned short int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_INT: { int val1 = ((int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); int val2 = ((int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_UINT: { unsigned int val1 = ((unsigned int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); unsigned int val2 = ((unsigned int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_LNG: { long int val1 = ((long int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); long int val2 = ((long int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_ULNG: { unsigned long int val1 = ((unsigned long int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); unsigned long int val2 = ((unsigned long int(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_FLT: { float val1 = ((float(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); float val2 = ((float(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_DBL: { double val1 = ((double(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); double val2 = ((double(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); return COMPARE_RESULT(val1,val2); break; } case _C_CHARPTR: { const char *val1 = ((const char *(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos1] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos1],aSelector); const char *val2 = ((const char *(*)(id,SEL))[[self objectAt:pos2] methodFor:aSelector]) ([self objectAt:pos2],aSelector); if (val1 && val2){ return NXOrderStrings(val1,val2,YES,-1,NULL); }else{ if (val1){ return 1; }else{ return -1; } } break; } default: break; } }else{ #ifdef DEBUG NXLogError("[%s:%s]: no object at %d or %d",[[self class] name],sel_getName(_cmd),pos1,pos2); #endif } return 0; } #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Cost of a NeXT Web Site? Date: 16 Jan 1997 03:57:51 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5bk8vv$3im@news.digifix.com> References: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 On 01/15/97, sugee@imap2.asu.edu wrote: > >I doubt that many advocates and customers like Chylser, CyberSlice, >Nissan, and etc. as the list goes on, will argue about the merits of >using NeXT's Web technologies for deploying their Web sites. We have all >heard plenty and are proud of what is being accomplished. > >However, what I haven't heard anything about, something which curiously >dawned on me recently and after reviewing what some of these folks are >doing, is the cost of implementing and deploying these Web Sites. Can >anybody provide approximate costs or actual figures of sites like these? >I do respect people's anonymity. > Thats likely not something that you're going to have much luck finding out, the spectrum is pretty wide there. There are some WebObjects projects like Stepwise (a NEXTSTEP/OpenStep product registry) that are based on EOF and WOF and it took perhaps 20-40 hours to implement. (The back end OpenStep UI has probably taken about as long). Of course I've re-written it a number of times now so thats a rather poor example. I've written sample catalog applications in WebObjects in a matter of a weekend. However I know of _much_ larger scale projects that have been in development for 6-8 months with a pretty good team of people on it (4-6).. -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: 22 Jan 1997 18:53:52 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 49 Message-ID: <5c69ag$ecf@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c12es$3ej@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21958 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54492 comp.sys.mac.system:193648 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181646 In article <5c12es$3ej@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > In article <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, > Nathan M. Urban wrote: > >Which is better? Accessing system services via distributed message > >passing, and dynamically loading and unloading object bundles into a > >running process's context? Or forking and exec'ing a shell to execute > >a new process, with all its associated overhead, and communicating with > >stream-based I/O that needs to be parsed into data structures? I like > >the former approach a lot better. > I couldn't care less. Unless there were some obvious benefits to show for > it. But the message I've been getting from an admittedly lukewarm > following of the thread is that the people who want to change this mostly > want to change it for aesthetics, or "just because". Will it make a > noticeable difference in performance or flexibility? I am of the opinion that you _would_ gain a noticeable improvement in flexibility and, in some cases, performance. Otherwise I wouldn't be advocating it. I do think it would be much more flexible, a lot easier to access program functionality from other programs, more convenient to distribute functionality over a network, and other advantages. > >Not that I'm advocating ripping Unix utilities out, or even saying that > >you shouldn't write apps which call utilities via a system() call. > >(Unlike some other people on this group...) Far from it. I love Unix > >and the Unix command line. I just think it would more elegant if most > >of the Unix functionality were wrappered with objects. Then the > >utilities could slowly be rewritten into object libraries, so that > >instead of having programs with object wrappers, you have programs > Oh, I'd have no problem with that. Just as long as I can keep my system() > call, I don't care how it's implemented (as long as performance doesn't > suffer). system() is the easiest way I've ever seen to pass messages to > the shell. Compare that with, say, writing a MacOS program that passes > messages via AppleScript. Does NeXT do it any better? What's "it"? Passing messages to the shell? To Unix command-line utilities? To applications? Something else? > One thing I'm reasonably certain of is system() and the shells won't > change much in any way, shape, or form until there's a universal and > backwards-compatible way to pass objects around. Likely. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 18:55:31 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5c69dj$ej7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c1d0j$nhr@duke.squonk.net> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21959 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54493 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181647 comp.sys.mac.system:193649 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > throw out the Unix layer > Why would they do that? Who's asking them too? You are, apparently. I just ran across another article from you: > > [from somebody] > > Really, there's no point in ripping out Unix. > [from you] > Yes there _is_: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 23 Jan 1997 01:29:03 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 49 Message-ID: <5c6esv$ses@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5c5tvp$jfu@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21960 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54504 comp.sys.mac.system:193671 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181662 In article <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: >Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: >> >> In article , >> Scott Maxwell wrote: >> >In article <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >> >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: >> > >> >>In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, >> >>Alan Lovejoy wrote: >> >> >> >>>Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. >> >>> >> >>>I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously >> >>>make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... >> >> >> >>Why? >> >> >> >Why not? >> >> Because it's so easy to use, and because a lot of existing code uses it. >> >> What would you gain by removing it? > >Removing it? I don't advocate that at all. > >Reimplementing the Unix shell utilities so that their implementations are less >monolithic and are based on reuseable sub-functions is all I am recommending. >And even then, only as time and resources permit (which may mean never...sigh). Oh! I thought you thought there was something wrong with system(). But sure, improving what's there is a great idea. And if you can call them through system(), that would sure be a lot easier than, say, programming with AppleScript. BTW, what's monolithic and unreuseable about Unix shell utilities? Each of them do one and only one thing and you often have to string many of them together to get something done. That's not monolithic. And they're all sitting in standard libraries that any user or any program can call at any time. That's pretty reuseable. Maury had a good idea. Make a set of object-oriented libraries, and directories like /bin would be filled with CLI-style wrappers. All your old programs will continue to work, but you get to use the spiffy new API. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!aadt.sdt.com!ericsmalling From: Eric_Smalling@amrcorp.com (Eric Smalling) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: The Competition? Date: Wed, 22 Jan 97 22:48:26 GMT Organization: SABRE Decision Technologies http://www.amrcorp.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5c65ho$bfm@aadt.sdt.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.9.108.228 Keywords: OpenStep WebObjects Portable Distributed Objects X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 I am trying to do a _NON-BIASED_ review of OpenStep EOF (for NT mainly) and WebObjects Enterprise. I have seen both products and am VERY impressed, however, what products are there out there to compete with these? The only thing I've found to compete with WebObjects is "BackStage II" from MacroMedia and I'm not even sure if it does even a tenth of what WO 3.0 does. As for OpenStep EOF - it's the PDO piece that I amd intrigued with. I can find NO OTHER product that comes close to this. Anyone out there wanna help me here? ____________________________________________________________________ Eric A. Smalling SABRE Decision Technologies - Ft Worth, Texas USA --=== ------=== The Any views expressed are mine alone and are in no ----------- SABRE way the views of AMR or any of it's subsidiaries. ------=== Group --=== email:Eric_Smalling@amrcorp.com Corp Web Site: http://www.amrcorp.com/sabr_grp/sdt/sdt.htm ____________________________________________________________________ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 18:43:14 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5c68mi$cqk@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c0nkk$r0l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21962 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54514 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181676 comp.sys.mac.system:193681 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5c0nkk$r0l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > I'm just saying that when you're doing a bunch of streams > > processing, there isn't as much of a need to have a pure object library. > But people aren't doing a lot of streams processing except in very > specific areas. And even in these areas I don't think using an OOPS > library is any worse, notably if it's got all the extras like published > interfaces and such. > > You can convert from objects to streams and back again without much > > difficulty. > Yeah, but WHY? The point I was trying to make is that replacing stream-processing apps with pure object replacements is not a very high priority, and wrappering them is probably the way to go. Things like, say, mail transfer agents would be better candidates for OOP libraries. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: 22 Jan 1997 18:48:33 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 47 Message-ID: <5c690h$djc@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <4msyuOu00iV0M52s5o@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54515 comp.sys.mac.system:193682 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181677 comp.sys.next.programmer:21963 In article <4msyuOu00iV0M52s5o@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger wrote: > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 CLI utils vs. > objects (was .. by Nathan M. Urban@csugrad. > > In practice, the way I think this would happen is Unix utilities being > > rewritten one-by-one so that they depend on little libraries instead of > > integrated code, and then making those libraries object-oriented. (It > > might be better to put object wrappers around C libraries so that you > > can still access their APIs from C or some non-OOP language if you > > want.) During the long conversion process, there would still be no > > problem with writing apps which call programs via object wrappers using > > the system() call. > > Comments? Do other Unix hackers think this is the way Unix should > > evolve? > I believe it is unfeasible to write sensible API's for every conceivable > Unix utility and to replace all of the expressive power of the shell. Not every conceivable one, no. Just the main ones.. besides, the transition could be made over a long period of time -- assuming that new Unix programs begin to use the new philosophy so they don't have to be modified later too. As to replacing all of the expressive power of the shell, I'm not suggesting that you can do that with OOP alone. I want the Unix utilities to stay just the way they are; I'd just like it if they worked by calling external libraries (preferably OOP) to make it cleaner and easier to programatically access their functionality. > I have no objection to people writing a good OO API to encapsulate the > functionality currently provided by popular tools like grep and find-- I > think it's a good idea. But people seem to think that simply providing > such an API means that the /bin/grep and /bin/find utilities aren't > needed anymore, and that claim makes no sense, for reasons that I've > explained in other articles. I'm not of the latter opinion either. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 22 Jan 1997 18:46:01 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5c68rp$d6l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21964 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181678 comp.sys.mac.system:193684 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54516 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article , Charles William Swiger > wrote: > > Apparently not, because you are arguing that we should not reuse the > > preexisting code available in the form of the Unix utilities, and should > > instead write APIs and an implementation in the C system library for all > > of those utilities. That is the opposite of "code reuse"! > Until you add in the words "OpenStep on NT". Once that's included it's > clear that modern code indeed offers considerably better chances for code > reuse than the current shell utilities. Note that a lot of Unix utilities use pretty much straight ANSI C, and not too many direct Unix system calls, so there _are_ portable to NT. Many of those that aren't directly portable are portable without too many changes. I have seen a number of them available for NT. I am of the opinion that there are many cases in which a developer would find it much more productive to base his code around a Unix utility and port that utility to NT than rewrite all the code from scratch. You seem to be under the assumption that all Unix utilities are tiny little things that a programmer could bang out in a few weeks or something. This is not the case. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!news.inlink.com!not-for-mail From: sschaper@inlink.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:21:05 GMT Organization: InLink Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32e6928e.106264041@news.inlink.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> <5c1gni$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.inlink.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21965 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54517 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181679 comp.sys.mac.system:193686 On 21 Jan 1997 04:29:38 GMT, Garance A Drosehn wrote: >b) certainly NeXTSTEP users do not want Unix at the expense > of ease-of-use. In some of the early interviews with Ellen > Hancock, she said something like "NeXTSTEP has done a good > job of hiding Unix from the user. However, there are still > some rough spots, and we intend to complete the job". I, > for one, think that's a very good approach. > Exactly, use IB to design Apple Human Interface Guideline compliant GUI shells for the various UNIX tools and so forth that haven't already been so dressed up. This is doable, right? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:40:26 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 13 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5bu1uq$hrc@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21966 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54519 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181682 comp.sys.mac.system:193690 In article <5bu1uq$hrc@darla.visi.com> dwy@ace.net (David Young) writes: > You can't mount multiple drives to the some mount point. Using standard > UNIX filesystem conventions, one drive = one mount point. Just to throw a spanner in - BSD4.4 (at least the netBSD1.1 version I've played with) CAN do this. The problem is that new files created always go to the same disk (when writing to directories which are on more than one disk), but its ideal for setting up bin's and home directories. Just mount allMachines:/LocalUsers on /Users on all machines. If NeXT go with their "new" kernel then this should be included! $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: 23 Jan 1997 01:34:29 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5c6f75$spl@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5c0heg$jud@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c12es$3ej@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c69ag$ecf@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21967 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54523 comp.sys.mac.system:193695 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181689 In article <5c69ag$ecf@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, Nathan M. Urban wrote: >In article <5c12es$3ej@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: >> Oh, I'd have no problem with that. Just as long as I can keep my system() >> call, I don't care how it's implemented (as long as performance doesn't >> suffer). system() is the easiest way I've ever seen to pass messages to >> the shell. Compare that with, say, writing a MacOS program that passes >> messages via AppleScript. Does NeXT do it any better? > >What's "it"? Passing messages to the shell? To Unix command-line >utilities? To applications? Something else? Oh, any and all of them. The command-line is just a specific type of shell, the shell is just another application, so it's all the same. The only message passing and scripting I know about is AppleScript and Unix streams. I don't know how NeXT compares to either one. But I do know one thing for sure, it's a lot easier to pass a command to the shell with system() than with AppleEvents. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!bbnews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:21:37 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 91 Message-ID: <32E6A101.7010@acm.org> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11109 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3668 comp.sys.next.programmer:21968 Anders Pytte wrote: > I have read (and greatly enjoyed) Joyner's 3rd edition of "A Critique of > C++", and did not find a single inaccurate statement in it. If I were > starting a new project on a platform that had very strong support for > Eiffel, that would be my choice of language. I would love to get rid of > header files, have assertion and other runtime debugging integrated into > my language. I really aprreciate all of Eiffel's qualitues. But Obj-C and > Java (so far) have far too many limitations for the sort of development I > do. Glad you enjoyed the critique. I am certainly neither criticising Bjarne Stroustrup, nor the users of the language. I'm just bringing to people's attention that C++ is now old and flawed. And I appreciate that you would also prefer to use a better language. > Joyner's critique suffers certain flaws in assumption, however. No weight > is assigned to the practical likelyhood of individual flaws actually > impacting on a software development project. I don't consider this an error of omission. My effort is to write about the flaws. These lead to many traps that are commonly enough fallen into. To do what you suggest would require full time funded research to get those kinds of statistics. And then how would you get such numbers? By a survey probably, and people are not very good at reporting on their mistakes. The critique evaluates the flaws in C++. So where are the flaws in assumption? > 5. All other factors mentioned in Joyner's critique. > > We had no problem avoiding the sorts of ambiguities Joyner complains > about. We didn't even have to discuss them. It took us all of a few > minutes to implement tools for assertion, and MacApp provided other tools > for runtime error detection. Some of the critiques have been made obsolete > by new compilers and linkers. Maintaining header files was boring but not > very time consuming. Etc., etc. Perhaps you didn't, but people seem to have no problems overlooking mistakes that are made. The problems in C++ are there, and they do cause people headaches. The point of the critique is that we should encourage better languages. The ambiguities in C++ also cause problems to those who are extending and standardising the language. Most of the things I point out are easily fixed in a language design. They do tend to be the things easily avoided. Other factors are harder to fix in a language. However, the critique is not only to find flaws, but to point out where C++ makes the programmer take care of low level details (bookkeeping tasks), which could much better be taken care of by a compiler. Another factor in C++ is the maintenance problem. So the critique actually points out more faults than just ambiguities. > Conclusion. > > So here is my point. Most the "linguistic" advantages of other languages > over C++ are _small_ compared to other factors active in the business of > software development. With the one exception of garbage collection, I > think Joyner's (and other's) critiques, though correct, are alarmist and > exagerated in importance; I agree with Stroustrup, that the flaws of C++ > are acceptable. No the critique is not alarmist. Perhaps you are alarmed by the number of problems in C++ that I find in the critique. The best C++ people that I know in fact think I have only scratched the surface, and I have been too kind. I have certainly not sensationalised of overblown importance, just reported on the facts. Yes, I and many others are alarmed about the increasing use of C++, when we should be moving to more modern languages. Eiffel is a step on the way. Myself and many others disagree with you and Stroustrup that the flaws of C++ are acceptable. You just can't cover them up that easily any more. I think that in the next few years you will see a steady decline in the use of C++ as people find languages that are better suited to their purposes. And for those who are wondering what Anders and I are talking about, you can find the critique at: http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~geldridg/cpp/cppcv3.html Thank you Anders for the opportunity to respond to your thoughts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 16 Jan 1997 06:22:53 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5bkhft$big@darla.visi.com> References: <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21969 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54524 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181690 comp.sys.mac.system:193696 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : No, my argument is, and was sidestepped, that these functions are better : off provided vias modern interfaces rather than command line tools. You're wrong. It'd be better as both. Else, you could argue that providing System 7 compatibilty is a waste, which is something I'm sure I'd be more likely to accept than you. The breadth of functionality that is covered in the UNIX utility suite is pretty big. Re-implementing perfectly clean interfaces like popen ("/usr/lib/sendmail -f maury@softarc.com dwy@ace.net") is time better spent on pushing forward. It's not like we're dealing with DOS here. : So they should get rid of the command line stuff then. Didn't you just suggest the exact opposite in the last post I replied to? -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 16 Jan 1997 06:18:35 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21970 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54525 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181691 comp.sys.mac.system:193697 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : Dave, I'm not asking for people to get rid of the *&(#&^*%$ utilties. : I'm saying that they should be OOPS libs on the disk with published : interfaces that you can call from within your programs regardless of : version and do so without having to flatten your code to a byte stream! Originally you were. When I had posted my reply, you were being utterly clueless and going on about the evils of cp, ls and rm and how horrible rm was because it didn't ask for confirmation (which, it does with the -i switch). Byte streams work well for some things. Objects work well for some things. You're not required to do system("mv foo bar"), you can use system calls, file system objects, whatever. Programmer's choice, which is really the important issue. : Since CLI's run on all computer's, it's obvious that we should get rid : of libraries of code altogether and make absolutely everything a shell : command. It's obvious isn't it? Are you trying to match my sarcastic wit? :) : There, now we don't need those silly library things and we can just ask : cshell to display our windows for us! Better yet, let's get rid of all : those imcompatible and confusing programming languages, let's do : EVERYTHING in the shell! Yeah, addition and division and everything! : It'll work! You're not following what I'm saying. There's nothing wrong with objects (in fact, I love objects. I live and die for objects.), but in many cases it makes more sense to use the shell. mv, rm, ls are bad examples. awk, sed, cut, sort, and uniq are better examples. They're designed for bytestream manipulation, which is something that is pretty common in most programs. Certain things don't always model well as objects; very complex pattern matching comes to mind. : Oh, then would you like to point out this paradigm of superb programming : you refer to but don't name? sendmail? ls? BTW, I don't know what paradigm you're inferring from my earlier posts. Do you think I'm somehow against OOP? What's wrong with ls? You prefer, say, dir /w? I doubt that a program would ever invoke ls and parse the output; it'd be more work than opendir(). Sendmail, despite its flaws, is incredibly powerful, btw. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 16 Jan 1997 06:29:19 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5bkhrv$big@darla.visi.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21971 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54526 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181692 comp.sys.mac.system:193698 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : > : Yes, but the quality of these applications varies, some is passable, : > : lots os terrible. rm doesn't even ask you to confirm, let alone allow you : > : to rescue the items. It's not lazy coders that's the problem, it's the : > : code that exists from years ago that is. Take note, you are faulting "rm" itself, which I will respond to below. : Ummm, so you're saying that rm's default behaviour is to ask you to : confirm? Or that all of this stuff is standardized? Or is ad hominem : attacks just something you do for fun? There are more issues at work than just rm, and if you had an understanding of UNIX, you'd know that. The site's administrator might choose to put 'alias rm "rm -i"' in /etc/tcshrc, in which case prompting would be the "default" behavior for that site. Or, maybe he thought he was clever and put 'alias rm "mv $* ~/.Trash"' and added "rm -rf ~/.Trash" in /etc/logout. Woo woo, there's all the functionality you were just whining about in two lines of shell aliases that'll work across the board on all unices with tcsh. There are really three levels of "default" behavior here: the factory rm, without aliases; the site-wide shell alias (if any) for rm, and the per-user alias (if any) for rm. The idea of "default" kind of loses its meaning in this context, wouldn't you say? rm does one thing, and one thing only: delete stuff. Anything else gets added someplace else, in the shell, or where ever. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 16 Jan 1997 06:58:46 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 35 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11110 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3670 comp.sys.next.programmer:21972 G. Gordon Apple, PhD (ga@ed4u.com) wrote: : MI is extremely useful as both a design tool and a modification tool if : used properly. Like any other tool you can also misuse it in ways that : get you into deep yogurt. In the design case, it allows you to partition : and encapsulate various independently-useful orthogonal functionalities so : that they can be combined at will (mixins) without each feature tripping : over the others. Hmm. Doens't sound much better than Object Composition to me, other than you get neat triangle trees instead of dotted rectangles around circles.. : In the case of modifications, it allows addition of features without : messing up the original classes. For example, you buy (or obtain by hook : or by crook) a library of objects that you really don't want to modify, : but now you want to subclass and implement streams or something that was : not included in that object library. It's easy to do with MI. Without : it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more work than you had : planned. Aha! No you're *not*! Objective-C to the rescue again, with "categories", a totally powerful way to extend any class with new methods, regardless of whether or not you have source. I find myself wishing for it all the time in other lanaguages. Basically, you define a category of a class with: @interface NSString (DavesExtendedNSString) and add methods you please, and every intance of NSString across the applicaiton gets the new methods, which, when combined with anonymous messaging, is very useful indeed... -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!thor.cmp.ilstu.edu!news From: "Eric A. Dubiel" Newsgroups: isu.talk,isu.isunix,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc Subject: NEWS: Objective-C and Ada95 from Tenon Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:57:19 -0600 Organization: Instructional Technology Services-Illinois State University Lines: 123 Message-ID: <32E6E19C.692A@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> Reply-To: eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: h0010111.smith.ilstu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC) CC: isunet-l@thor.cmp.ilstu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21973 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20335 FYI: Useful for future OPENSTEP, Windows, UNIX, and Mac OS projects... This press release is from: Phone: 805-963-6983 FAX: 805-962-8202 Contact: Anita Holmgren Internet: anita@tenon.com Objective-C and Ada95 Now Available for Power Mac MachTen CodeBuilder - An affordable software development tool for the next generation MacOS Santa Barbara, CA, January 7, 1997. Tenon Intersystems has extended MachTen - its highly-regarded UNIX system for Apple computers - to include the Objective-C and the GNAT-Ada 95 tool suite. MachTen CodeBuilder, a new offering from Tenon being demonstrated this week at Macworld in San Francisco, includes C, C++, Objective-C, Java, Ada95 and Fortran77. CodeBuilder can be used in combination with standard Macintosh editors and compilers to develop Macintosh applications, X applications, and UNIX applications. MachTen CodeBuilder extends MacOS with a family of dynamically-linked, shared libraries that, like a Java virtual machine, create a UNIX virtual machine-based execution environment with pre-emptive multi-tasking. Tenon's MachTen UNIX is based on the same Carnegie Mellon Mach and BSD UNIX foundation as Steve Jobs' NeXT OS, making CodeBuilder a good platform for porting and building next-generation MacOS applications. The native PowerPC (PPC) package contains a complete UNIX software development environment with a source-level debugger and C, C++, Objective-C, Ada95 and Fortran77 compilers all generating native PPC code. Because CodeBuilder creates binary PowerPC Executable Format (PEF) files that can integrate directly with other Macintosh development tools, software developers can combine Macintosh debuggers and compilers with the CodeBuilder tool suite to get the best of both the Macintosh and UNIX worlds. CodeBuilder is a powerful tool for porting existing UNIX applications or developing new, advanced applications on Power Macs and Power Mac clones. This unique toolset gives developers the ability to create an application with a single source base not only for Power Macs under a native Apple operating system, but also for Silicon Graphics, SUN, NeXT, or HP environments. CodeBuilder gives Apple developers the freedom to take advantage of time-tested UNIX development tools without giving up the features of their favorite Macintosh editors or compilers. Tenon's new development tool suite includes a native UNIX fast file system. CodeBuilder has two file systems - a UNIX file system which extends the Macintosh file system with file name case sensitivity, and this new native fast file system which removes the Macintosh file name length limitations and sizing restrictions. Tenon's fast file system can be contained within a single Macintosh file, making disk partitioning unnecessary. Depending upon the application, Tenon's new file system can result in a two- to ten-fold performance improvement. This performance advantage, coupled with the latest high-performance Power Macs, creates a new standard in desktop computing. CodeBuilder supports a complete GNU software development environment. The GNU Ada95 and Objective-C compiler were brought to Power Macs by leveraging Tenon's existing gcc development tool suite. The Ada95 environment includes up-to-date tools for object-oriented programming and the core Ada essential tools suite from the Free Software Foundation. The Ada compiler includes a tasking run-time environment, an interface to the MacOS threads library, and Ada language bindings to the Macintosh Toolbox (API). Objective-C, an object-oriented extension to the C language, is the NeXTStep development language. The GNUStep OpenStep base class library is included on the CodeBuilder CD as a source code compilation example. GNUStep is a widely-available implementation of OpenStep, the NeXT distributed application run time environment. The fact that CodeBuilder's Objective-C is able to build and execute large sections of the GNUStep library demonstrates the strength of CodeBuilder's Objective-C implementation. A future release of CodeBuilder will include the complete GNUStep environment. CodeBuilder's Kaffe (a development & execution environment for Java bytecode), scripting tools (such as Perl, MacPerl, tck/tk and expect) and popular Macintosh and UNIX text editors (such as BBEdit Lite, Alpha, and emacs) make CodeBuilder an ideal internet programming and Web developer tool. CodeBuilder includes a high-performance X11R6 24-bit color X server as well as an X client application development environment. The current release supports AfterStep, a NeXT-style X desktop. Options for OpenGL and Motif 2.0 will be offered by the end of the first quarter of '97, further strengthening CodeBuilder's X development capabilities. The software comes on CD with BSD UNIX source code, on-line documentation in both HTML and Adobe Acrobat PDF formats, and an introductory price of $99. Tenon has been shipping UNIX, X , and networking software for the Macintosh since 1991. In 1994 MachTen was selected by UNIX World's Open Computing magazine as "A Best Product of the Year". Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie mailto:eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu ytalk eadubie@138.87.201.11 MIME, SUN, NeXT, PGP Mail ok R&D---Instructional Technology Services----Illinois State University Intelligence is the ultimate aphrodisiac- Timothy Leary ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED REPRESENT MYSELF ONLY #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 23 Jan 1997 04:07:01 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 54 Message-ID: <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54543 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181731 comp.sys.mac.system:193712 comp.sys.next.programmer:21974 Charles William Swiger (cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 22-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld : Exclusive: App.. by William Raphael Hix@port : > 2) A stripped down version of the BSD emulated services, just the minimum : > necessary for OpenStep with boot handled by some means other than shell : > scripts. No CLI app or non-GUI access to BSD commands, to minimize the : > size of the distribution as well as Apple's potential problems : > supporting such things to the general Mac community. : : There are some problems I see with that suggestion. Let me present just : the ones that would affect Mac users and not discuss any of the problems : that would affect Unix users. : : 3) Remember Copland? Apple already tried and _failed_ to write their : own replacement operating system for MacOS 7.x. : : While the brain-trust they've gained by acquiring NeXT's engineers would : undoubtedly be of assistance in creating a new operating system, NeXT's : engineers have already created their own operating system to do : preemptive multitasking, good virtual memory, and so forth-- NEXTSTEP, : which is based off of a reasonably sophisticated Mach kernel and BSD 4.x : Unix and GNU utilities. The problem with Copland was reportedly making the old Mac Toolbox work on a modern kernal. OpenStep is to solve that problem, not necessarily the rest of NeXTStep. They seem to be planning to replace the kernal. I think for time reasons they need to keep the BSD 4.3 middle layer to provide the basic OS functions, but not all of BSD provides features required for OpenStep compatibility. NeXT sold their OS for $800, a price comparable with other workstation vendors. Apple will not be able to sell a desktop OS for this, or compete with Win NT workstation ($250). I'm trying to predict where the compromise will come. : 4) It removes functionality that some current Mac users have said that : they would like. There are some Mac users who have stated that a CLI : interface with Unix utilities would be nice to have every once in a : while. Although no doubt that admission infuriates those Mac advocates : who are anti-Unix and/or anti-CLI. The point is not removal of functionality, but spliting it into pieces. The basic OS is to satisfy the ordinary Mac user, at the $100 price point they're comfortable with. The NAE provides all the OpenStep functionality you'd want, as a cost of a few hundred dollars more. Even then, it's less than half the cost NeXT now charges. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 07:21:01 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 77 Message-ID: <5bkkst$sab@news.xmission.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bbtbb$b14@news.xmission.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21975 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54552 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181743 comp.sys.mac.system:193715 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bbtbb$b14@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > Now do you see my point? All of these things in the "perfect" OS would > be object libs on the drive. Your programs would send them messages with > objects as parameters. Your CLI would do the opposite of what you have to > do now, it would take flat bytes and turn them into objects to pass to > these libs. > > Look, ignore Unix, just look at that last paragraph and tell me what > exactly is so wrong for asking for the entire OS to work the same way, > rather than some one way and others others? I understand what you want. In general, I like the idea too. I don't see it feasible to do given what Apple has to work with and where they need to get to, given the time frame they are forced to deal with. Maybe in the distant future this would become a reality. To a certain degree, it already is a reality in that, for exmaple, the "rm" command is just a cover to the unlink() function in the system library. And so on for the simple UNIX commands. It will take a long time to make the more complex commands work well in this scenario; the UNIX filter paradigm, while not great for everything, does work very well for a lot of data processing applications, and some are really complicated, and imposing the structure of objects over them may be more of a hindrance than a help. (It's back to the right tool for the job argument, though admittedly, UNIX tools are older and are slowly being replaced by better paradigms. I have no problem moving to something better when it is better and more stable than what I have, but I'm not going to move before then without kicking and screaming. What you want isn't going to happen within the next two years, and may take longer than that. Also, don't ignore that for a lot of batch type jobs, the CLI is still a lot more efficient an interface than a GUI. So you can't just get rid of it. Again, right tool for the job... > No, I _don't_ expect this to happen any time soon. Is that a > reason to think it's a bad idea to try? No, I suppose not. Problem is that once people depend on this stuff (and it may be the best that there is, and reality may constrain them to use these things out of practical need) you then have a backward compatability problem. So you have a catch-22. If you wait to "do it right" you lose a market opportunity, but if you use what you have, you get locked in... > > which this reliance perhaps needs some reexamination. But I'll be > > damned if I'm going to try to rewrite awk or sed--or sendmail--so that > > my apps can use them. Those already work, and I'd like to save some > > time to get to the core of what I wish to produce. > > Yeah, but do you really like flattening out your objects so you can > stream them? Doesn't bother me. The cases I "outsource" to a UNIX command I am typically dealing with passing a text string or a glob of binary data through a filter. The string and data objects have methods for doing this painlessly. One method call, that's it. Outsourcing is still easier than trying to write all that code and fold it into a project, following up with extra testing, etc. I'm sure that as software development evolves, everything we know today will eventually change. But it will be a slow process. Just look at how long UNIX has lasted and you know that there's a lot of inertia out there. The fact that the year 2000 problem exists is due to underestimating that inertia. Let's hope we've learned out lesson. There's nothing wrong with dreaming, but it is often more useful to be practical and deal with reality, assuming you can figure out what it is. :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!rain.fr!imaginet.fr!usenet From: pjb@imaginet.fr (Pascal Bourguignon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone know about power management? Date: 23 Jan 1997 02:27:12 GMT Organization: ImagiNET Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5c6ia0$go7@belzebul.imaginet.fr> References: <5c1vrs$ktg@uni2f.unige.ch> Reply-To: pjb@imaginet.fr (Pascal Bourguignon) NNTP-Posting-Host: cyber41.bordeaux.imaginet.fr In article <5c1vrs$ktg@uni2f.unige.ch> dami@cui.unige.ch (Laurent Dami) writes: > > For info: I'm using NS on a NEC Versa P laptop, and APM works just fine. > I just suspend/resume very often, and never met any problem. But I know > nothing about the kernel internals, sorry. One more data point: I'm using a DELL Lattitude XPi 90 ST, and I have to disable APM for the hardisk would not resume when it's asleep. Then I would have to power off and on, and then the file system is no more usable, and I have to reinstall it. __Pascal Bourguignon__ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:46:54 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32E6D11E.7EA7@exnext.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> <5c1gni$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <32e6928e.106264041@news.inlink.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21977 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54556 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181746 comp.sys.mac.system:193728 sschaper@inlink.com wrote: > > On 21 Jan 1997 04:29:38 GMT, Garance A Drosehn > wrote: > > >b) certainly NeXTSTEP users do not want Unix at the expense > > of ease-of-use. In some of the early interviews with Ellen > > Hancock, she said something like "NeXTSTEP has done a good > > job of hiding Unix from the user. However, there are still > > some rough spots, and we intend to complete the job". I, > > for one, think that's a very good approach. > > > > Exactly, use IB to design Apple Human Interface Guideline compliant > GUI shells for the various UNIX tools and so forth that haven't > already been so dressed up. > > This is doable, right? That appears to be Apple's intention, to some point. I think there are plenty of Unix tools that won't get a GUI, simply because they are obscure enough that only a CLI-friendly person would care to use them. Nature of the beast, I suppose. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:01:44 -0500 From: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> <32E6A101.7010@acm.org> Organization: Milkweed Software X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.3 Lines: 72 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!news.bypass.com!port10.chester.smallmedia.com!user Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11111 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3672 comp.sys.next.programmer:21978 In article <32E6A101.7010@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote: > Anders Pytte wrote: > > > Joyner's critique suffers certain flaws in assumption, however. No weight > > is assigned to the practical likelyhood of individual flaws actually > > impacting on a software development project. > > I don't consider this an error of omission. My effort is to write about > the > flaws. These lead to many traps that are commonly enough fallen into. To > do > what you suggest would require full time funded research to get those > kinds > of statistics. And then how would you get such numbers? By a survey > probably, > and people are not very good at reporting on their mistakes. The > critique > evaluates the flaws in C++. So where are the flaws in assumption? ... > > Conclusion. > > > > So here is my point. Most the "linguistic" advantages of other languages > > over C++ are _small_ compared to other factors active in the business of > > software development. With the one exception of garbage collection, I > > think Joyner's (and other's) critiques, though correct, are alarmist and > > exagerated in importance; I agree with Stroustrup, that the flaws of C++ > > are acceptable. > > No the critique is not alarmist. Perhaps you are alarmed by the number > of problems in C++ that I find in the critique. The best C++ people > that I know in fact think I have only scratched the surface, and I > have been too kind. I have certainly not sensationalised of overblown > importance, just reported on the facts. Yes, I and many others are > alarmed about the increasing use of C++, when we should be moving > to more modern languages. Eiffel is a step on the way. Myself and many > others disagree with you and Stroustrup that the flaws of C++ are > acceptable. You just can't cover them up that easily any more. I think > that in the next few years you will see a steady decline in the use of > C++ as people find languages that are better suited to their purposes. > > And for those who are wondering what Anders and I are talking about, > you can find the critique at: > > http://www.progsoc.uts.edu.au/~geldridg/cpp/cppcv3.html Ian, I was hoping someone would do the job of slaying me, and rather painlessly at that. I repent: there was no error of assumption on your part; by the same reasoning, nor was your critique alarmest. However, the main part of my conclusion, I believe, stands: it is still possible to create excellent products at competitive cost using C++, because the cost of this language's flaws, when prudently managed, is small compared to its benefits (excellent support, wide availability of tools and environments and skilled programmers, etc.). This is what i meant when i agreed with Stroustrup. In the meantime, I meant it when I said I would consider switching to Eiffel for my next project. But when will an _industrial_ version be available for the Mac? Anders. -- Anders Pytte Milkweed Software RR 1, Box 227 Voice: (802) 472-5142 Cabot VT 05647 Internet: milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!usenet From: "Kenneth R. Fleming" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Job Offer Date: 15 Jan 1997 16:17:26 GMT Organization: SuiteSoftware Lines: 11 Message-ID: <01bc0300$99b090a0$b4ac3895@ken.suite.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: s172-180.suite.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 We are developing graphical tools to manage large scale distributed object systems. We are looking for some with extensive background in Objective-C and OpenStep/NeXTStep. Skills in C++ and JAVA as well as knowledge Message Oriented Middleware, CORBA and other graphics systems would be a plus (i.e. more $$$). email or fax resume. FAX 714-978-1840 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott Maxwell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 02:49:58 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as9s61.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21980 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54570 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181765 comp.sys.mac.system:193734 In article , Charles W Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 14-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld >Exclusive: App.. by Scott Maxwell@nic.com >> Well how about this. Perhaps a method could be devised so that when you >> move an application the database of locations is updated when the move >> occurs? I know nothing of the internal operation of OpenStep but it seems >> like an easy thing to implement. > >What would that gain you? > >Right now, NEXTSTEP has conventions for the filesystem locations for >applications and other components which are supposed to be available to >everyone on the system. These conventions exist for a number of good >reasons-- they simplify system administration and fileserver >configuration, and they make it much easier for users to use a new >machine without having to waste time trying to figure out where >important applications were installed. > This is true. I'm not debating that. But, there are quite a few single users (not multi-user) who might find it strange not to be able to put things where they want them. I didn't say it was a good or bad thing. It's just the way a lot of people are used to doing things. >Nothing prevents you from installing applications whereever you want and >making links (aka aliases) into the standard locations, or from making >links from the standard locations whereever else you like. > >-Chuck > > > Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer > ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- > I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. -- -------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm@nic.com "We are a fact-gathering organization only... the minute the FBI begins making recommendations on what should be done with its information, it becomes a Gestapo." -- J. Edgar Hoover #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!drivel.ics.uci.edu!news.service.uci.edu!dialin9234.slip.uci.edu!user From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Encryption Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:14:58 -0700 Organization: UC Irvine Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5b37rh$ss5@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin9234.slip.uci.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54576 comp.sys.next.programmer:21981 In article , tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote: > I am not sure if NeXT owns the patent or NeXTs mathematics guru...Richard > Crandall (hey..maybe he's one of the reasons why Mathematica has always > remained available for NeXTSTEP). > > Side Note: Elliptic Encryption can provide more unique keys with shorter key > length the public key systems based on primes. Richard found a way to remove > all divisions in the EE encryption and could replace the with simple plus and > mius operations. Thuse it is called FEE. > FEE is more secure then PGP since it can take a 40bit key and will cause the > same amount of "cracking" headache as a 120bit PGP (ok..these numbers are > wrong I would have to look them up...but you get the idea) FYI, there is an article written by Crandall in the Feb97 Scientific American concerning large number mathematics that makes mention of FEE. It's not very specific or technical regarding FEE but according to the article he estimates it would take the worlds combined computing power more than 10^10,000 years to decipher a FEE encrypted SciAmerican. Sounds pretty damn secure to me... #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:29:24 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 185 Message-ID: <32E6BEF4.7D1A@exnext.com> References: <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <5c68rp$d6l@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21982 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181792 comp.sys.mac.system:193755 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54587 Nathan M. Urban wrote: > Note that a lot of Unix utilities use pretty much straight ANSI C, and > not too many direct Unix system calls, so there _are_ portable to NT. > Many of those that aren't directly portable are portable without too > many changes. I have seen a number of them available for NT. > > I am of the opinion that there are many cases in which a developer > would find it much more productive to base his code around a Unix > utility and port that utility to NT than rewrite all the code from > scratch. You seem to be under the assumption that all Unix utilities > are tiny little things that a programmer could bang out in a few weeks > or something. This is not the case. I'd also add that many of the Unix tools are available, free, from Cygnus in the CygWin32 package. I've got it on my Win95 box. Quite nice, though the integration with the Win95 filesystem could be nicer. Then again, it's been a while since I installed it, so maybe it's improved since then. Some are a bit screwy since the underlying functionality isn't there (whoami on a single-user system?) _~1 EXE 15,360 04-13-96 7:35p [.exe AR EXE 139,776 04-13-96 7:34p ar.exe AS EXE 249,344 04-13-96 7:34p as.exe AWK EXE 157,184 04-13-96 7:35p awk.exe BASENAME EXE 6,144 04-13-96 7:35p basename.exe BASH EXE 256,512 04-13-96 7:34p bash.exe BASHBUG 2,081 04-13-96 7:34p bashbug BISON EXE 64,000 04-13-96 7:34p bison.exe BYACC EXE 56,832 04-13-96 7:34p byacc.exe C__~1 EXE 5,120 04-13-96 7:35p c++.exe C__FIL~2 EXE 20,992 04-13-96 7:34p c++filt.exe CAPTOI~1 EXE 87,552 04-13-96 7:35p captoinfo.exe CAT EXE 9,728 04-13-96 7:35p cat.exe CC EXE 45,056 04-13-96 7:35p cc.exe CHGRP EXE 8,704 04-13-96 7:35p chgrp.exe CHMOD EXE 10,752 04-13-96 7:35p chmod.exe CHOWN EXE 9,728 04-13-96 7:35p chown.exe CKSUM EXE 8,192 04-13-96 7:35p cksum.exe CLEAR EXE 63,488 04-13-96 7:35p clear.exe CMP EXE 10,240 04-13-96 7:35p cmp.exe COMM EXE 8,192 04-13-96 7:35p comm.exe CP EXE 19,456 04-13-96 7:35p cp.exe CSPLIT EXE 37,888 04-13-96 7:35p csplit.exe CUT EXE 11,264 04-13-96 7:35p cut.exe CVTRES EXE 9,728 04-13-96 7:35p cvtres.exe CYGWIN DLL 3,264,906 04-13-96 7:35p cygwin.dll D EXE 25,088 04-13-96 7:35p d.exe DATE EXE 25,600 04-13-96 7:35p date.exe DD EXE 13,312 04-13-96 7:35p dd.exe DIFF EXE 64,512 04-13-96 7:35p diff.exe DIFF3 EXE 15,872 04-13-96 7:35p diff3.exe DIR EXE 25,088 04-13-96 7:35p dir.exe DIRNAME EXE 6,144 04-13-96 7:35p dirname.exe DLLTOOL EXE 164,864 04-13-96 7:34p dlltool.exe DU EXE 10,752 04-13-96 7:35p du.exe ECHO EXE 7,168 04-13-96 7:35p echo.exe EGREP EXE 55,296 04-13-96 7:35p egrep.exe ENV EXE 7,680 04-13-96 7:35p env.exe EXPAND EXE 8,704 04-13-96 7:35p expand.exe EXPR EXE 35,840 04-13-96 7:35p expr.exe FALSE 331 04-13-96 7:35p false FGREP EXE 55,296 04-13-96 7:35p fgrep.exe FIND EXE 51,712 04-13-96 7:35p find.exe FINGER EXE 16,896 04-13-96 7:35p finger.exe FLEX__~1 EXE 131,584 04-13-96 7:34p flex++.exe FLEX EXE 130,560 04-13-96 7:35p flex.exe FMT EXE 11,776 04-13-96 7:35p fmt.exe FOLD EXE 8,704 04-13-96 7:35p fold.exe FTP EXE 51,200 04-13-96 7:35p ftp.exe G__~1 EXE 5,120 04-13-96 7:35p g++.exe GASP EXE 37,888 04-13-96 7:34p gasp.exe GAWK EXE 157,184 04-13-96 7:35p gawk.exe GCC EXE 45,056 04-13-96 7:35p gcc.exe GCOV EXE 11,776 04-13-96 7:35p gcov.exe GDB EXE 765,952 04-13-96 7:35p gdb.exe GREP EXE 55,296 04-13-96 7:35p grep.exe GROUPS 1,440 04-13-96 7:35p groups GUNZIP EXE 44,544 04-13-96 7:35p gunzip.exe GZEXE 3,842 04-13-96 7:35p gzexe GZIP EXE 44,544 04-13-96 7:35p gzip.exe HEAD EXE 9,216 04-13-96 7:35p head.exe HOSTNAME EXE 6,144 04-13-96 7:35p hostname.exe I386-C~1 EXE 45,056 04-13-96 7:35p i386-cygwin32-gcc.exe ID EXE 8,192 04-13-96 7:35p id.exe IGAWK 2,998 04-13-96 7:35p igawk INDENT EXE 40,448 04-13-96 7:35p indent.exe INFOCMP EXE 93,696 04-13-96 7:35p infocmp.exe INSTALL EXE 12,288 04-13-96 7:35p install.exe JOIN EXE 12,800 04-13-96 7:35p join.exe LD EXE 242,176 04-13-96 7:35p ld.exe LESS EXE 134,656 04-13-96 7:35p less.exe LESSKEY EXE 6,656 04-13-96 7:35p lesskey.exe LN EXE 11,776 04-13-96 7:35p ln.exe LOCATE EXE 10,752 04-13-96 7:35p locate.exe LOGNAME EXE 5,632 04-13-96 7:35p logname.exe LS EXE 25,088 04-13-96 7:35p ls.exe M4 EXE 74,240 04-13-96 7:35p m4.exe MAKE EXE 92,672 04-13-96 7:35p make.exe MD5SUM EXE 13,824 04-13-96 7:35p md5sum.exe MKDIR EXE 9,216 04-13-96 7:35p mkdir.exe MKFIFO EXE 7,168 04-13-96 7:35p mkfifo.exe MKNOD EXE 8,704 04-13-96 7:35p mknod.exe MOUNT EXE 2,560 04-13-96 7:35p mount.exe MV EXE 12,800 04-13-96 7:35p mv.exe NICE EXE 7,680 04-13-96 7:35p nice.exe NL EXE 35,328 04-13-96 7:35p nl.exe NM EXE 145,408 04-13-96 7:35p nm.exe NOHUP 2,055 04-13-96 7:35p nohup OBJCOPY EXE 238,592 04-13-96 7:35p objcopy.exe OBJDUMP EXE 267,264 04-13-96 7:35p objdump.exe OD EXE 20,480 04-13-96 7:35p od.exe PASTE EXE 10,240 04-13-96 7:35p paste.exe PATCH EXE 35,840 04-13-96 7:35p patch.exe PATHCHK EXE 8,192 04-13-96 7:35p pathchk.exe PR EXE 15,872 04-13-96 7:35p pr.exe PRINTENV EXE 6,656 04-13-96 7:35p printenv.exe PRINTF EXE 10,752 04-13-96 7:35p printf.exe PROTO EXE 83,456 04-13-96 7:35p proto.exe PROTOIZE EXE 26,624 04-13-96 7:35p protoize.exe PWD EXE 7,168 04-13-96 7:35p pwd.exe RANLIB EXE 139,776 04-13-96 7:35p ranlib.exe RCL EXE 64,512 04-13-96 7:35p rcl.exe RESET EXE 107,520 04-13-96 7:35p reset.exe RM EXE 10,752 04-13-96 7:35p rm.exe RMDIR EXE 6,656 04-13-96 7:35p rmdir.exe SDIFF EXE 14,336 04-13-96 7:35p sdiff.exe SED EXE 52,224 04-13-96 7:35p sed.exe SHAR EXE 26,112 04-13-96 7:35p shar.exe SIZE EXE 126,976 04-13-96 7:35p size.exe SLEEP EXE 6,144 04-13-96 7:35p sleep.exe SORT EXE 20,480 04-13-96 7:35p sort.exe SPLIT EXE 9,728 04-13-96 7:35p split.exe STRINGS EXE 126,976 04-13-96 7:35p strings.exe STRIP EXE 238,592 04-13-96 7:35p strip.exe STTY EXE 22,528 04-13-96 7:35p stty.exe SUM EXE 8,192 04-13-96 7:35p sum.exe SYNC EXE 6,144 04-13-96 7:35p sync.exe TAC EXE 33,792 04-13-96 7:35p tac.exe TAIL EXE 13,824 04-13-96 7:35p tail.exe TAR EXE 109,568 04-13-96 7:35p tar.exe TEE EXE 7,680 04-13-96 7:35p tee.exe TELNET EXE 55,296 04-13-96 7:35p telnet.exe TEST EXE 15,360 04-13-96 7:35p test.exe TIC EXE 87,552 04-13-96 7:35p tic.exe TIME EXE 11,776 04-13-96 7:35p time.exe TOE EXE 87,552 04-13-96 7:35p toe.exe TOUCH EXE 23,040 04-13-96 7:35p touch.exe TPUT EXE 87,552 04-13-96 7:35p tput.exe TR EXE 16,384 04-13-96 7:35p tr.exe TRUE 332 04-13-96 7:35p true TSET EXE 107,520 04-13-96 7:35p tset.exe TTY EXE 6,656 04-13-96 7:35p tty.exe UMOUNT EXE 2,048 04-13-96 7:35p umount.exe UNAME EXE 6,656 04-13-96 7:35p uname.exe UNEXPAND EXE 9,216 04-13-96 7:35p unexpand.exe UNIQ EXE 9,216 04-13-96 7:35p uniq.exe UNPROT~1 EXE 22,528 04-13-96 7:35p unprotoize.exe UNSHAR EXE 9,728 04-13-96 7:35p unshar.exe UPDATEDB 4,376 04-13-96 7:35p updatedb USERS EXE 7,168 04-13-96 7:35p users.exe UUDECODE EXE 8,192 04-13-96 7:35p uudecode.exe UUENCODE EXE 7,680 04-13-96 7:35p uuencode.exe V EXE 25,088 04-13-96 7:35p v.exe V1 EXE 113,664 04-13-96 7:35p v1.exe VDIR EXE 25,088 04-13-96 7:35p vdir.exe WC EXE 8,704 04-13-96 7:35p wc.exe WHO EXE 9,216 04-13-96 7:35p who.exe WHOAMI EXE 5,632 04-13-96 7:35p whoami.exe XARGS EXE 11,776 04-13-96 7:35p xargs.exe YES EXE 6,144 04-13-96 7:35p yes.exe ZCAT EXE 44,544 04-13-96 7:35p zcat.exe ZCMP 2,002 04-13-96 7:35p zcmp ZDIFF 2,002 04-13-96 7:35p zdiff ZFORCE 1,006 04-13-96 7:35p zforce ZGREP 1,335 04-13-96 7:35p zgrep ZMORE 1,070 04-13-96 7:35p zmore ZNEW 3,504 04-13-96 7:35p znew SH EXE 256,512 07-04-96 11:14p sh.exe -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!hookup!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Problems with EOF 2.0 application Date: 16 Jan 1997 08:55:05 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5bkqd9$5b7@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 I'm still having some problems with the application I use to update Stepwise. I think the only remaining problem is something that I've not yet got a good handle on, although I'm not sure if thats the only problem left. I've written some HTML pages that describe the App, including screen dumps, and the EOModel dump from my EOModelViewer.app. If you are interested in a copy of it, visit my pages for more information. Basically it allows you to dump EOF 2 .eomodeld's to a detailed HTML table format for documentation and or printing. The pages are at http://www.digifix.com/StepwiseEOF _any help_ would be appreciated! -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:13:19 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 110 Message-ID: <32E70F8F.17C2@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <32E420C6.17B7@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc501175.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21984 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181834 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54609 comp.sys.mac.system:193786 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld > Exclusive: App.. by Alan Lovejoy@concentric. > >> Code reuse is a principle which states that it is usually easier and > >> better to use preexisiting code rather than reinvent the wheel by > >> re-writing functionality that is already available. > >> > >> I understand what code reuse means. Do you? > >> > >> Apparently not, because you are arguing that we should not reuse the > >> preexisting code available in the form of the Unix utilities, and should > >> instead write APIs and an implementation in the C system library for all > >> of those utilities. That is the opposite of "code reuse"! > > > > Ahem. Now whose being offensive? > > > > Here's the most offensive part: you're wrongly attributing to me a position > > I have never stated, and in fact disagree with: namely, that the CLI utility > > commands should not be used, or should be eliminated. > > Hmm. I'd have to look through a few hundred articles to see precisely > what you said. You do agree that (1) you made the suggestion that the > API for the Unix CLI utilities should be abstracted into a library, and > (2) that you make that comment apparently in support of Maury's > suggestion without ever mentioning that you did not agree with the rest > of his suggestion to make those utilities optional? In reference to: (1) Yes. (2) Debatable, at best. Firstly, my first post in the thread is a response to you, not to Maury. And in the post to which I initially responded, there was no mention made of getting rid of the Unix shell. However, I can understand how you might have gotten confused, since from your point of view both things would have seemed to be the theme of the thread. In hindsight, it would have been better had I made my position on the subject of getting rid of the CLI explicit from the beginning. > Regardless of what you think about the second part, your suggestion to > recode the functionality of the Unix CLI utiltities into a library is > still the "opposite of 'code reuse'", since that functionality already > exists. Hmmm... I might agree that rewriting something is not in itself reuse, and is in fact a failure to reuse. However, I think such a failure in reuse actually occurs when the original code is written such that rewriting it is required in order to achieve better reuse. And of course, rewriting code should be done only for good reason. The question is, is rewriting code solely to make it (and its subfunctions) more reuseable sufficient justification? I think so--or rather, I think it can be, but it depends on other factors--such as time, money, the likelyhood that the code that is rewritten for greater reusability will actually get reused, and so forth. So in the **ideal** situation, I'm all for it. In practice, it depends. I don't think Apple can afford to spend any time doing this sort of thing during the next two years. After that, maybe. But they'll need help from the whole Unix community. > > If the code in the UNIX shell commands were refactored and abstracted into > > utility functions with a standard API, the universe of reusable code would > > be increased. > > Agreed. If so, then I think we essentially agree on the whole topic. > > (And of course, the original shell commands would still be available with > > the same functionality and external interfaces). I hope this is clear, and > > does not need any further proof. > > It's clear. So far, so good-- > > [ ... ] > >> > >> The point is, regardless of what it's called or whether it's just one or > >> several libraries-- there is no point at all of creating tens of > >> thousands of system calls to replace the Unix command line utilities > >> unless that mammoth API is available on all of the hardware/operating > >> system combinations that you're replacing the Unix CLI utilities, > >> otherwise programmers won't be able to depend on all of the API being > >> available, which would make it far less useful. > > > > So no OS should ever provide a library that has any function not also > > available on any other OS? Or just not available on any other Unix? > > Not at all. But I expect the process to be an evolutionary one that > will take a great deal of time. In the meantime, the Unix utility API > is pretty darn useful because it provides some important functionality. Yep. > > And a technical point: a function in a library is not a system call. It's > > only a system call if the function actually runs as part of the kernel, in > > the kernel address space, with kernel permissions. > > That's the standard definition of the term 'system call' under Unix; > other operating systems use that term more generally to refer to > functionality provided by the standard system library. Since I've been > talking to a Mac audience a lot, I've been trying to avoid using purely > Unix terminology. Ah! Understood. Terminology differences are so often the cause of needless misunderstandings. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: CLI utils vs. objects (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!) Date: 23 Jan 1997 02:01:57 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5c72d5$i1j@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c12es$3ej@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5c69ag$ecf@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c6f75$spl@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21985 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54610 comp.sys.mac.system:193788 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181836 In article <5c6f75$spl@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > In article <5c69ag$ecf@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, > Nathan M. Urban wrote: > >In article <5c12es$3ej@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >> Oh, I'd have no problem with that. Just as long as I can keep my system() > >> call, I don't care how it's implemented (as long as performance doesn't > >> suffer). system() is the easiest way I've ever seen to pass messages to > >> the shell. Compare that with, say, writing a MacOS program that passes > >> messages via AppleScript. Does NeXT do it any better? > >What's "it"? Passing messages to the shell? To Unix command-line > >utilities? To applications? Something else? > Oh, any and all of them. The command-line is just a specific type of > shell, the shell is just another application, so it's all the same. The > only message passing and scripting I know about is AppleScript and > Unix streams. I don't know how NeXT compares to either one. NEXTSTEP tends to use two things for message passing: Portable Distributed Objects (PDO) for direct object-to-object communication, and Services for user-invoked actions that either take no parameters or operate on the current selection. Both of them are pretty slick and rather easy to use programatically. I don't know of anyone who has written a command-line interface to applications via PDO, though, since applications tend not to document their interface. There is a nice app out called TickleServices that lets you write TCL scripts as services. As to passing things to the shell, there are nice object wrappers around that, basically equivalent to a system() call except they use objects instead of a C call. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 23 Jan 1997 02:22:15 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5c73j7$inp@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21986 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54615 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181844 comp.sys.mac.system:193790 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > If you want the Unix command-line utilities, install them. If you > don't, don't. Why has this possibility whipped the Unix people into such > a frenzy? It's not the > Arguments include... > a) Unix utils make it easier to develop > But not as easy as OOPS libs with the same functionality Yes, nonexistent OOPS libs that Apple will NOT have time to write. I agree with you that they're nicer, but plain and simple, Apple is not going to make them. > b) Unix utils make it easier to port the applications > But only to other Unixen, to NT it certainly hurts Wrong. I already mentioned that most of the main Unix utilities have been ported to NT. (And OS/2, and some other OSes.) > c) Unix utils make it easier to administer > Only because it depends on them no, it doesn't under NT Again, Apple is not going to throw out all of the Unix admin tools. You see, NT is an operating system. It has admin tools. Rhapsody is a Unix system. If you take out the Unix tools, you have nothing left! Apple does not have the time to replace all of them, nor should it. > d) It allows you do run all this great Unix software > Which the VAST majority of it's users don't want anyway Rule #1: Do not throw out a competitive advantage. Most home users do not want Unix software. Many corporate, technical, and scientific users do. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 23 Jan 1997 02:26:18 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5c73qq$j63@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c343m$1ko@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21987 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54616 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181845 comp.sys.mac.system:193791 In article <5c343m$1ko@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: > : raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > : Umm, Unix is important for people who want to run servers, you know. > : There is a lot of server-related software out there for Unix. A lot of > : it won't work if you throw out random utilities that are generally > : assumed to exist on a Unix platform. Do you want to see Rhapsody have > : an impact in the corporate environment? Not everyone is a home user. > Is Unix important to people who want to run servers? Or is a protected > memory, pre-emptively multitasking modern OS with a high performance > file system what they want. Many of them want Unix. There are an awful lot of experienced Unix admins out there. More importantly, there is an enormous amount of server software available for Unix. It's what runs the Internet. > Yes, until recently this meant Unix, but > does it need to. I'd say the growth of Win NT indicates that not all > people who run servers want Unix. There might be a better way. Maybe, but Apple isn't about to go write the new killer server OS when they had to go out and buy one just to stay alive. > : Why not? All these Unix utilities don't take up much space. Crippling > : a Unix system isn't worth the effort. The _only_ consideration is > : whether the existence of these utilities will hurt developers with > : similar products, and I don't think that this is a serious problem. I > : doubt 'find' is going to replace V-Twin for desktop use, but there are > : plenty of sysadmins and shell scripts who use it. > But the developer consideration is important to Apple. How important is > unclear, but Apple has said that developer support will be critical to > Rhapsody's success. What will they sacrifice in order to get developer > support? Did you just ignore what I said, or what? I think it's ludicrous to even imagine that 'find' is going to replace V-Twin, or that 'tar' will be competition for StuffIt. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 23:24:13 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 62 Message-ID: <32E7121D.5341@concentric.net> References: <5c5tvp$jfu@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net> <5c6esv$ses@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc501175.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21988 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54617 comp.sys.mac.system:193792 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181847 Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > > In article <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net>, > Alan Lovejoy wrote: > >Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > >> > >> In article , > >> Scott Maxwell wrote: > >> >In article <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > >> >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >> > > >> >>In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, > >> >>Alan Lovejoy wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. > >> >>> > >> >>>I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously > >> >>>make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... > >> >> > >> >>Why? > >> >> > >> >Why not? > >> > >> Because it's so easy to use, and because a lot of existing code uses it. > >> > >> What would you gain by removing it? > > > >Removing it? I don't advocate that at all. > > > >Reimplementing the Unix shell utilities so that their implementations are less > >monolithic and are based on reuseable sub-functions is all I am recommending. > >And even then, only as time and resources permit (which may mean never...sigh). > > Oh! I thought you thought there was something wrong with system(). But > sure, improving what's there is a great idea. And if you can call them > through system(), that would sure be a lot easier than, say, programming > with AppleScript. > > BTW, what's monolithic and unreuseable about Unix shell utilities? Each > of them do one and only one thing and you often have to string many of > them together to get something done. That's not monolithic. And they're > all sitting in standard libraries that any user or any program can call at > any time. That's pretty reuseable. Well, some are much more "monolithic" than others. "rm" is hardly more than a wrapper for the unlink() function, so it's fine just as it is. But some are rather large and complex. I find it hard to believe that none of them have any harvestable subfunctions that could be effectively reused if only they were published in a documented library (although it may be true that many don't). > Maury had a good idea. Make a set of object-oriented libraries, and > directories like /bin would be filled with CLI-style wrappers. All your > old programs will continue to work, but you get to use the spiffy new API. Exactly. It's the promised land. Now, when will it be economically justified to get there? Perhaps never, but I sure hope we can do better than that. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail From: leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (Leigh Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Experience with DriverKit and MiG ? Date: 23 Jan 1997 09:04:30 GMT Organization: The University of Western Australia Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c79iu$3a3$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: antechinus.cs.uwa.oz.au Hi All, I'm working on a device driver for a 6DOF motion tracker. I've got most of the code done, including MiG generated asynchronous reply messages to stream the coordinates to separate threads in the user task. I'm still a bit unsure about the most appropriate means of streaming coordinates from the Kernel IO task to the MiG RPC message. In the MIDI driver a FIFO buffer is filled in the Kernel IO task, with a separate thread reading from the FIFO to call the MiG reply messages. Is it possible to simply call the MiG reply messages from the Kernel IO task itself? I can't seem to get it to work and IOConvertPort steadfastly refuses to convert the port. Trawling on the rare chance someone with device development experience can provide experiences and suggestions. Many thanks. -- Leigh Smith Computer Science, University of Western Australia +61-9-380-1945 leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (NeXTMail/MIME) "In a world where success means gaining time, thinking has a single but irredeemable fault: it's a waste of time" - J-F. Lyotard #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 23 Jan 1997 09:51:46 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5c7cbi$3bm@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21990 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54654 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181910 comp.sys.mac.system:193823 On 01/22/97, Adam Bridge wrote: > UNIX is a strange beastie to those of us looking in at from the Mac side. > Years ago in another incarnation I remember OS's that were refered to as > "User Friendly". The Mac was just invented and, in my household, it was > better than "User Friendly." It was "User Chummy". UNIX has always > appeared to me as "User Hostile" with a command-line interface that was at > once cryptic, terse to the point of rudeness, and documented for geeks not > real users. [...] > You get the drift -- my early UNIX experience was not positive. So > imagining my Mac taken over by a version of this system is somewhat > alarming. BUT....only somewhat. UNIX is an adult operating system. I > imagine that I'd start my system once a day if I chose not to leave it on > all the time. The file system would be safe as houses. File system > performance, I hope, will be good. > I really can't believe that after the thousands of messages that have been posted on this subject that you still have not noticed that anyone who has ever used NEXTSTEP for more than a day has said that, unless you want to find out, you'll never know it's Unix. With the NeXT, Steve Jobs set out to produce a better Mac than the Mac, and in the opinion of most of us who use NeXT's s/w, he, in collaboration with some outstandingly talented engineers and designers, succeeded. If you believe in AppLE, do you really think they would sacrifice everything the company stands for and the main competitive advantage they have (IMHO) just to put a commandline interface and a few terminal windows in front of their users? No. Please, read the press releases, read the web sites, particularly the unofficial ones that NeXT-users have created to tell people more about the new OS, and then if you have any well-founded concerns, come back and ask them in an informed manner. Best wishes, mmalc. (Followups trimmed) -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!ddfservb.technet.net!ok@technet.net From: Constantin Szallies Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 23 Jan 1997 10:34:41 GMT Organization: Tech Net GmbH Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5c7es1$7bc2@ddfservb.technet.net> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.77.99.122 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11115 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3675 comp.sys.next.programmer:21991 Michael Hudson wrote: >Greg Titus wrote: >> Michael Hudson writes: >> >Does Objective-C have templates? >> >> Nope. Don't need 'em. Templates are a hack to get around the >> limitations in C++'s strong binding. When you want to manipulate >> objects in a generic way in Objective-C you just declare your >> arguments as "id" (any object), and the same method works for >> everything instead of the compiler making multiple copies of the code >> for every type of object you might use. >[snip] >> >The STL >> >> No, a lot of equivalent functionality is in NeXT's Foundation >> framework. >> > >OK. Can you write me a short bit of code that would sort an array of any >type in Objective-C? >(I don't really want a complete quicksort algorithm, but somethnig that >shows it would be possible) This is only possible (nicely) with templates. Objective-C doesn't have templates, so it's not possible in Objective-C. The other replies to your question show code to sort a set of objects of any type. You can't add non-object types into these containers. Note that Smalltalk doesn't have this problem -- in the Smalltalk world everything is an object! In my experience, you don't have to hold primitive types like int, float etc. too often in containers, so the lack of templates in Objective-C is not really servere. For small sets of primitive types, one can use wrapper objects for each type without major performance impact. Have a nice day, -- Constantin Szallies, Energotec GmbH szallies@energotec.de 49211-9144018 #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.67.173.4!news.decus.org!eisner!kilgallen From: kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks X-Nntp-Posting-User: KILGALLEN Lines: 30 Organization: LJK Software Message-ID: <1997Jan16.103207.1@eisner> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> X-Trace: 853428732/23632 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: eisner.decus.org Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:32:07 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11116 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3676 comp.sys.next.programmer:21992 In article , ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) writes: > MI is extremely useful as both a design tool and a modification tool if > used properly. Like any other tool you can also misuse it in ways that > get you into deep yogurt. In the design case, it allows you to partition > and encapsulate various independently-useful orthogonal functionalities so > that they can be combined at will (mixins) without each feature tripping > over the others. > > In the case of modifications, it allows addition of features without > messing up the original classes. For example, you buy (or obtain by hook > or by crook) a library of objects that you really don't want to modify, > but now you want to subclass and implement streams or something that was > not included in that object library. It's easy to do with MI. Without > it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more work than you had > planned. That ending seems to be a rather broad claim: > It's easy to do with MI. Without > it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more work than you had > planned. If one wants to add "mixins" in Ada95 one uses generics, and I have not seem any claim that generics are in any way more difficult for mixins. They certainly remove a lot of the risk associated with multiple inheritance, since there is ambiguity regarding common ancestors differently overridden, etc. Larry Kilgallen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wwa.com!news.ucdavis.edu!dcn134.dcn.davis.ca.us!user From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to get started Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:14:56 -0800 Organization: Bridge Family Lines: 8 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: dcn134.dcn.davis.ca.us X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.6 I'm looking at what it will take to get started writing NeXT software. The price of admission, I have to admit, seems awfully high. Am I missing something? And are there recommendations as to platform (since I'm going to have to build a machine to run it). Thanks, Adam Bridge #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 16:29:09 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca7-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 16 10:29:09 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21994 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54661 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181921 comp.sys.mac.system:193834 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > It's time someone started making open OS's that > DIDN'T use command lines and shell scripts to accomplish things. We've > had GUI's for ten years now, isn't it time to stop calling utils with > them? Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix Bourne shell language is similar. Scripting languages are a powerful alternative to GUI interfaces which can be very cumbersome in many cases. Providing both just creates a richer environment as long as users aren't *required* to use a CLI. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!128.130.2.8!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: Robert F Tobler Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: 23 Jan 1997 12:01:30 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5c7juq$7n5@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54667 comp.sys.next.programmer:21995 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181932 comp.sys.mac.system:193844 Michel Coste wrote: > I remember when NeXT came out , ALL mac users were trying modify the > Finder to mimic NeXT!!! > What a WASTE you suggest! The Workspace is much more sophisticated > than the Finder. > To say the least what you suggest is a retrogradation... > > [ point by point comments ommited ] > The opinion of Next users (and I am also a Next user!) is utterly irrelevant to what Apple has to do to cater to their current user base. You showed point by point, that you think the Next way is better, and I agree with you in most of the cases (not all), but Apple couldn't care less about what we Next users think if they can retain their Marketshare (and Next users are negligible for that matter). The things I sugested show that it is possible to cater to all Mac users, while making all changes optional, so that *NO* functionality is lost to current Next users, so that the change is no retrogradation. I posted this to show that it is easily possible to modify the *default* behaviour of the next Workspace *WITHOUT* loosing the possibility to change everything back to the way it works now. I hope Apple/Next does something along these lines, and doesn't make a real retrogradation. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: Mark_Bessey@next.com (Mark Bessey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 16 Jan 1997 16:27:01 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 34 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> References: Reply-To: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM NNTP-Posting-Host: bananajr.next.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11119 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3677 comp.sys.next.programmer:21996 G. Gordon Apple, PhD writes > MI is extremely useful as both a design tool and a modification > tool if used properly. Like any other tool you can also misuse it in > ways that get you into deep yogurt. In the design case, it allows you > to partition and encapsulate various independently-useful orthogonal > functionalities so that they can be combined at will (mixins) without > each feature tripping over the others. The mix-in model of OOP isn't supported very well by Objective-C. You can often achieve much the same results by using delegation and forwarding to create "composite" objects. > In the case of modifications, it allows addition of features > without messing up the original classes. For example, you buy (or > obtain by hook or by crook) a library of objects that you really don't > want to modify, but now you want to subclass and implement streams or > something that was not included in that object library. It's easy to > do with MI. Without it, you're hosed, or you at least have a lot more > work than you had planned. This is exactly what Objective-C protocols are for. They allow you to add methods to any existing class. This can even be done for classes that you don't have the source code to - can C++ do that? There are surely some features of C++ that would be nice to have in Objective-C (stack-allocated objects and operator overloading, for instance), but Multiple Inheritance a feature I often wish I had. -Mark -- Mark Bessey NeXT Software, Inc Software Quality Assurance -->I DON'T SPEAK FOR NeXT <-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!138.220.104.78!news.worldbank.org!usenet From: Stefano Pagiola Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 09:15:51 -0500 Organization: World Bank Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32E62117.583E@worldbank.org> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: envgcte1.worldbank.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21997 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54668 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181934 comp.sys.mac.system:193847 > >: > Example: does the existence of tar, a reasonably able backup > >: > utility with a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin > >: > or Dantz who make backup software more or less eager to port to > >: > Rhapsody? I think less likely, because the number of potential > >: > buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the existence of tar and freeware > >: > extensions. Speaking as a long-time NeXT user, I can testify that over the years a large variety of backup apps, ranging from freeware through shareware to commercial software, have been written for NeXTSTEP. Yes, tar is in there, but most users want either more functionality or more ease of use, so there's been a ready market for these utilities. -- Stefano Pagiola 850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-admin From: rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com (Rajnish Dogra) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: mktime() Date: 23 Jan 1997 13:24:05 GMT Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 71 Message-ID: <5c7opl$34e@news.internetmci.com> References: <32E65D33.446B@mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tsabin.metro.mci.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Pascal Chesnais wrote: >We are having problems here with mktime under nextstep 3.3 >has anyone else run into this? Putting today's time gets >us a wrong return value (on the order of 3 year!!!) > >pasc The following code works in my NeXTStep 3.3 for Intel #include #include // // struct tm { // int tm_sec; /* seconds after the minute (0-59) */ // int tm_min; /* minutes after the hour (0-59) */ // int tm_hour; /* hours since midnight (0-23) */ // int tm_mday; /* day of the month (1-31) */ // int tm_mon; /* months since January (0-11) */ // int tm_year; /* years since 1900 */ // int tm_wday; /* days since Sunday (0-6) */ // int tm_yday; /* days since Jan. 1 (0-365) */ // int tm_isdst; /* flag; daylight savings time in effect */ // long tm_gmtoff; /* offset from GMT in seconds */ // char *tm_zone; /* abbreviation of timezone name */ // }; void main (void) { struct tm t, * t3; time_t tt, t2; t.tm_sec = 0; t.tm_min = 30; t.tm_hour = 9; t.tm_mday = 23; t.tm_mon = 0; t.tm_year = 97; tt = mktime(&t); fprintf (stderr, "sec = [%d]\n", t.tm_sec); fprintf (stderr, "min = [%d]\n", t.tm_min); fprintf (stderr, "hour = [%d]\n", t.tm_hour); fprintf (stderr, "mday = [%d]\n", t.tm_mday); fprintf (stderr, "mon = [%d]\n", t.tm_mon); fprintf (stderr, "year = [%d]\n", t.tm_year); fprintf (stderr, "wday = [%d]\n", t.tm_wday); fprintf (stderr, "yday = [%d]\n", t.tm_yday); fprintf (stderr, "\n\n"); t2 = time(&t2); t3 = localtime (&t2); fprintf (stderr, "sec = [%d]\n", t3->tm_sec); fprintf (stderr, "min = [%d]\n", t3->tm_min); fprintf (stderr, "hour = [%d]\n", t3->tm_hour); fprintf (stderr, "mday = [%d]\n", t3->tm_mday); fprintf (stderr, "mon = [%d]\n", t3->tm_mon); fprintf (stderr, "year = [%d]\n", t3->tm_year); fprintf (stderr, "wday = [%d]\n", t3->tm_wday); } Rajnish Dogra NeXTStep Developer #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!news5.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 09:29:56 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:21999 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54673 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181945 comp.sys.mac.system:193863 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >> Oooh, I bet the _Unix Hater's Handbook_ told you to say that. > > No actually, it's post right here in this conference that show >examples. For instance... > >I've been tearing my hair out the last couple days dealing with >HP-UX, Hewlett-Packard's version of Unix. They made a raft of >gratitious filesystem changes that added NOTHING to the value >Unix environment. 1. I said that. 2. It was said in the context of someone's proposal to make Apple's proposed Unix system "better" by renaming things like /usr. 3. I think all the unix utilities oughta be in there, in their full glory and grime. 4. Unix may suck--all OSes do--but making a bunch of gratitous changes that would make Apple's Unix layer different from every other Unix would suck even more. Casual, everyday users should never see Unix. Power users and developers are perfectly capable of dealing with the quirks of Unix, and removing or bastardizing Unix would be a tragedy of the first order, as well as a dumb business move. -- Don McGregor | "If C++ is your hammer, then every problem looks mcgredo@crl.com | like a thumb." -- will@dyson.microserve.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3 Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 16 Jan 97 10:48:07 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-27.access.one.net In-reply-to: Charles W Swiger's message of Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3679 comp.sys.next.programmer:22000 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11120 In article , Charles W Swiger writes: As for the size and performance of Obj-C based applications, I would suggest trying it before worrying about problems that most people don't encounter. C++ advocates always seem to imply there is a big tradeoff here, but I cannot recall ever seeing a NEXTSTEP developer (someone who has actually released commercial software) state that the size and performance of Obj-C was a significant problem. Fact of the matter is, most NeXTSTEP apps which are slow are slow because the developer didn't spend enough time looking at what the app is doing. If your app is drawing the same scene multiple times without changing it, then even if your language gives you 100% of the hardware's capability, it could be slower than an interpretted language which only draws the scene _once_. A long-term project I'm involved with is essentially a word processor with the capability of substantially rewriting the text based on answers users give to questions. The engine is written entirely in Objective-C. Every six to nine months, we manage to double or triple the speed of certain paths through the engine, without disrupting the UI (or application model) much at all, all while we continue to add new features to it. There's no reason we couldn't translate the engine into C++, gaining a "free" 10% in performance. OTOH, that would probably expand our six to nine month performance improvement schedule out to 12 to 16 months. That's an expensive price to pay for a 10% performance gain! As with anything else, algorithmic optimizations pay off much better than micro optimizations. If I thought we _really_ had anything to gain by going to C++ for our engine, we'd be there already. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!news.inlink.com!news.starnet.net!news.starnet.net!newspump.wustl.edu!crcnews.unl.edu!manager From: rdieter@math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: brk and sbrk Date: 23 Jan 1997 13:41:51 GMT Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln Lines: 9 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c7pr0$4e6@crcnis3.unl.edu> Reply-To: Rex Dieter NNTP-Posting-Host: mathlab44.unl.edu Keywords: brk, sbrk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22001 comp.sys.next.software:27576 I'm involved in a software porting venture... the software at hand uses the functions brk and sbrk. The NEXTSTEP man pages say these functions are not supported. Are there any other functions available to provide similar functionality? ____ Rex A. Dieter rdieter@math.unl.edu (NeXT/MIME OK) Computer System Manager http://www.math.unl.edu/~rdieter/ Mathematics and Statistics University of Nebraska-Lincoln #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 18:01:27 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22002 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54691 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181966 comp.sys.mac.system:193879 In article , mckinnon@tezcat.com (Chuck McKinnon) wrote: > Well if .apps all have to go into a certian location for the OS to work, > why not make the "Applications" folder act like the System folder. > Currently, the Applications folder is a normal folder with a special > icon, and the system will recognize it as such; also the Finder allows > for protection of this folder. What folder? This is something that came with my Mac I suppose, like the short-lived Documents folder? > Just go the next step (pun intended) and make the Applications folder > the required place for .apps and make the system treat it as such. This > would make even more sense for new/consumer user: it makes sense. > All apps go in the Applications folder, [duh!] and the new system will > get what it need. > Or is this too simple? Way too simple for me, I'm afraid, I would find that disgustingly restrictive. The notion of an 'Applications', 'Documents' etc folder, is horribly Win-like, not something I could deal with. My root folders are along the lines of 'video', 'writing' etc, not categories that are frankly only useful to the computer itself. "Applications"? What good does that do me? Useless. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: 23 Jan 97 09:27:33 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> <5c6qsj$2lv@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-18.access.one.net In-reply-to: sanguish@digifix.com's message of 23 Jan 1997 04:53:39 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22003 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54705 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181986 comp.sys.mac.system:193899 In article <5c6qsj$2lv@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes: A universally available format with the features of Stuffit (random access wise) and the free/clear compression algorithms of gzip would be a huge winner provided that the archive format and algorithms were made public so that it could become an 'all platform' solution. Sounds like InfoZip to me. Or perhaps zoo, though InfoZip has better compression. [In case you live in a DOS box, InfoZip is a portable version of PKZip. Source code included.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!worldnet.att.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 16 Jan 1997 18:28:40 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D2BCF1.41C6@cineon.kodak.com> <5b39ha$2cn@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b44cf$s7g@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22004 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54706 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181987 comp.sys.mac.system:193901 In article , jbf@frazer.com (James B. Frazer) wrote: > > The whole of NEXTSTEP, absolute minimum installation, takes up less than > > 100MB I believe. I don't know just how much MacOS uses, but if you added > > enough extras to give you the same functionality (i.e. you'd have to add > > internet connectivity, a number of applications for system administration > > etc), I wonder if you'd be in the same ballpark? > My system partition, with the 7.5.5 OS and a minimal set of Unixy utilities, > runs to 90MB. Now that's somewhat inflated by my PowerPC architecture; perhaps > the equivalent would be 60-70 MB on a 680x0. That's close enough so that Mac > fans shouldn't fret. And, believe me, those Unix utilities replace a great > many small Mac applications. 40.1 MB here on 68K 7.5.5. This is not including GX, no speech extensions, no Applescript or Apple Guide extensions (I do trim my system to be more compact). But it does include CD-Rom, open transport, PPP etc etc etc, the Netscape 3.01 Java libraries and cache (currently at 5M and full) as well as Kaleidoscope and support files, and a limited amount of Clarisworks support files, and of course the Eudora support folder *think* what else? Anyway, that's 40.1 megs in total. In a lot of ways I'd like to see the end of the extensions and system folders. One reason is that if I am going to use something like Kaleidoscope I want to _replace_ the relevant code and discard the previous code, rather than patching it in. I also don't particularly like needing to have app stuff in my system folder. Though it's sobering that even with Netscape and Eudora and Clarisworks I'm at 40M. How is it that it can require 100M? Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 23 Jan 97 09:22:07 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5c5tvp$jfu@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net> <5c6esv$ses@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-18.access.one.net In-reply-to: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu's message of 23 Jan 1997 01:29:03 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22005 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54707 comp.sys.mac.system:193904 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181988 In article <5c6esv$ses@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) writes: Maury had a good idea. Make a set of object-oriented libraries, and directories like /bin would be filled with CLI-style wrappers. All your old programs will continue to work, but you get to use the spiffy new API. Then you could call the API "Perl" ... [sorry, I just couldn't resist,] -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Re: killer apps for Apple/NeXT Date: 16 Jan 1997 01:31:25 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5bk0dd$jnq@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <32DD473F.334E@worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: ziziz@worldnet.att.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54714 comp.sys.next.misc:24802 comp.sys.next.programmer:22006 comp.sys.next.software:27583 In <32DD473F.334E@worldnet.att.net> zizi zhao wrote: > Dean Hall is looking for killer apps for Apple/NeXT OS. He says: > "So far > most of the stories have been about > Apple , I would really like to know > about how the deal affects NeXT > developers. Does anyone have a > killer app in the works? What about > game developers? " > in his webpage http://members.tripod.com/~dehall/nextstep.html One of the companies I contract for may just have the "killer app". Imagine building first class OpenStep objects (especially highly graphical animating ones) with no code at all. This thing could put Visual Basic out of the picture and or be a great way to build Visual Basic component ware. My company is in fact working on a high end game using all of the latest greatest NeXT technology. Sorry I can not give details. P.S. Renderman was already available for Mac #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles W Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Installing software, was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 13:20:15 -0500 Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 85 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b39sm$2u9@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <32D60909.42EC@surf.net.au> <5b647r$s70@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22007 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181998 comp.sys.mac.system:193915 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54715 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 16-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Scott Maxwell@nic.com >> Right now, NEXTSTEP has conventions for the filesystem locations for >> applications and other components which are supposed to be available to >> everyone on the system. [ ... ] > > This is true. I'm not debating that. But, there are quite a few single > users (not multi-user) who might find it strange not to be able to put > things where they want them. I didn't say it was a good or bad thing. It's > just the way a lot of people are used to doing things. What you've said is clearly true. I suspect that for many people it simply won't be a problem. So let's consider an example of how a typical software installation works under NS, and see whether there is anything that you feel might be a problem. Let's say you're browsing some NS sites on the web, and see some software that you want to get-- a new demo, or an updated version, or whatever. You click on the URL, and your web browser happily goes and downloads the file. Let's say this was some shrinkwrapped software which was built into an Installer.app package [.pkg], and is archived to the FTP or web site probably in .compressed or .tar.gz format (1). When the download is done, your web browser will automatically invoke Opener.app to extract the package, and Opener.app will in turn automatically invoke Installer.app. Installer.app has a really nice and simple interface; all you have to do is click the "Install" button, and Installer may ask you where the files should go if you don't choose to accept the default location that the authors of the package recommend. You can also do such things as select which languages and which architectures (if you've got a FAT binary). But unless you tell it differently, software installed via this mechanism will be put in a sensible place. That's all, folks-- one click in the web browser, one click for Installer.app. Oh, in some cases you might have to hit return once or twice to confirm where to put the software and which languages/architectures to install. If you have a reason to install the software somewhere else than the default, no problem. If you do that and still want to have the system recognize the document types associated with that software, you can make a link. So I am of the opinion that the conventions in use for where things 'should' go will be something that most Mac people will like if they ever think about it at all. [ This is assuming that Apple doesn't change any of this, which they presumably would if Apple thinks that their user base is going to have problems. ] One more thing-- uninstalling software is just as easy. Whenever you install a package, Installer saves a record of the files installed and how to uninstall them in /NextLibrary/Receipts/. Just double-click on the .pkg file for whatever it is to run Installer, and then click "Uninstall". -Chuck ----------------- (1) NeXT's .compressed is another name for .tar.Z, and is used by the WorkSpace which lets you compress, decompress, and inspect .compressed files. Opener.app is an awesome utility that understands pretty much every major archive format used: *.Z,tar,shar,lzh,lha unix compressed files *.z,gz GNU gzipped files *.taz,tgz msdos .tar.Z, .tar.gz *.uu uuencoded file *.hqx,bin,sit,cpt macintosh archives *.arc,zip,zoo msdos arc archives *.PS (Preview misses cap .PS) *.arj msdos arj archives (extraction only) *.compressed NeXT compressed files Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!news.nstn.ca!tor.istar!east.istar!news.globalserve.net!usenet From: Drone Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:15:21 -0500 Organization: Envision This Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32E78E99.1289@globalserve.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E655AD.55D3@exnext.com> Reply-To: foxglove@globalserve.net NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin469.globalserve.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22008 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54716 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:181999 comp.sys.mac.system:193916 Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > No, the Mac GUI does not let you do *everything*. If there is something > that is not in the GUI, you *cannot* do it. Unless, of course, some > nice programmer comes along and writes a program that lets it happen. > Well, DUH! Drone. -- "esse est percipi" foxglove@globalserve.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 23 Jan 1997 10:26:08 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11123 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3683 comp.sys.next.programmer:22009 In article <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com>, none wrote: > OK. Can you write me a short bit of code that would sort an array of any > type in Objective-C? Well, that's a built-in method of NSArray.. their documentation example is (modified for a mutable array): NSMutableArray *sortedArray = [anArray sortUsingSelector:@selector(compare:)]; The compare: message is sent to each object in the array, no matter what they are -- you can have a mixed array of objects, of course -- and returns NSOrderedAscending, NSOrderedDescending, or NSOrderedSame. (Those three return values are C enumerated types, by the way.) > (I don't really want a complete quicksort algorithm, but somethnig that > shows it would be possible) Internally, it's doing something like: id obj1 = [anArray objectAtIndex:i]; id obj2 = [anArray objectAtIndex:j]; if([obj1 compare:obj2] == NSOrderedDescending) { // swap elements [obj1 retain]; // keep the array from freeing obj1 when it is replaced at 'i' // don't have to worry about obj2, it gets retained by the first replace // and released by the second [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:i withObject:obj2]; [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:j withObject:obj1]; [obj1 release]; // decrement the reference count } I hope this works, it's just off the top of my head. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:57:41 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <32E79885.7DBD37EB@screaming.org> References: <5c5tvp$jfu@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net> <5c6esv$ses@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22010 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54722 comp.sys.mac.system:193927 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182020 Scott Hess wrote: > > (Gregory Loren Hansen) writes: > > Maury had a good idea. Make a set of object-oriented libraries, > > and directories like /bin would be filled with CLI-style wrappers. > > All your old programs will continue to work, but you get to use the > > spiffy new API. > > Then you could call the API "Perl" ... > > [sorry, I just couldn't resist,] No problem; I couldn't stop thinking about perl during this entire thread. I like Maury's idea in the abstract, and I trust that we'll keep slowly approaching that object-nirvana. Today AppLE has too many higher priorities that need to be addressed before they go yanking-out all the calls to system() and replacing the functionality of what was being called with an ObjC/OpenDoc frameworks. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:04:41 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: <32E7A839.564E@exnext.com> References: <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c73j7$inp@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E7A213.77BB@exnext.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22011 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54725 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182026 comp.sys.mac.system:193938 Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > Nathan M. Urban wrote: > > > > In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > > > a) Unix utils make it easier to develop > > > But not as easy as OOPS libs with the same functionality > > > > Yes, nonexistent OOPS libs that Apple will NOT have time to write. I > > agree with you that they're nicer, but plain and simple, Apple is not > > going to make them. > > > > I'm starting to think that what Maury really wants is Perl. ;) Doh! &^*&^%()! Scott beat me to it. Drat. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!decwrl!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:08:34 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <32E6D632.7A82@exnext.com> References: <5c5tvp$jfu@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <32E6900A.2A90@concentric.net> <5c6esv$ses@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22012 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54733 comp.sys.mac.system:193960 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182042 Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > Maury had a good idea. Make a set of object-oriented libraries, and > directories like /bin would be filled with CLI-style wrappers. All your > old programs will continue to work, but you get to use the spiffy new API. Kind of like ixsearch, ixbuild, etc. (I think, anyway. I suspect they wouldn't work if you nuked the indexing kit shlibs.) -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mach-O and localization, was Re: Apple-NeXT Conflicts? Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 15:27:03 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5ahf5n$pq2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5ajg47$soi@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <1997010514570823842@p026.gor.euronet.nl> <5ap7db$mnu@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5argj1$84s@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5auv1t$h2c@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5b0vqa$k9@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5b1bq7$48e@news.xmission.com> <5b5vme$s70@news.xmission.com> <0mrHfT600iV945m0Ei@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182046 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54735 comp.sys.next.programmer:22013 In article <0mrHfT600iV945m0Ei@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles W Swiger wrote: > multiple sections supported by Mach-O are a straightforward extension of > the venerable a.out format, which had precisely three sections: TEXT, > DATA, and BSS. Ahhhhhhh. So (you see this coming), why did it stop there? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:38:27 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 17 Message-ID: <32E7A213.77BB@exnext.com> References: <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c73j7$inp@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22014 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54737 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182048 comp.sys.mac.system:193967 Nathan M. Urban wrote: > > In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > a) Unix utils make it easier to develop > > But not as easy as OOPS libs with the same functionality > > Yes, nonexistent OOPS libs that Apple will NOT have time to write. I > agree with you that they're nicer, but plain and simple, Apple is not > going to make them. > I'm starting to think that what Maury really wants is Perl. ;) -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: 23 Jan 1997 20:17:20 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5c8h0g$9sf@news.digifix.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22015 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54743 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182060 comp.sys.mac.system:193984 On 01/22/97, Scott Hess wrote: >In article <5c6qsj$2lv@news.digifix.com>, > sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes: > A universally available format with the features of Stuffit (random > access wise) and the free/clear compression algorithms of gzip > would be a huge winner provided that the archive format and > algorithms were made public so that it could become an 'all > platform' solution. > >Sounds like InfoZip to me. Or perhaps zoo, though InfoZip has better >compression. > >[In case you live in a DOS box, InfoZip is a portable version of >PKZip. Source code included.] > Yep, it does doesn't it. Of course they'd have to store the multi-forked Apple files in some special manner in the archive, but that shouldn't be a big deal. There must be a good multi-forked Apple file 'flatten' format available right? Other than BinHex that is.. -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: How to get started Date: 16 Jan 1997 20:52:11 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5bm4dr$a3s@news.digifix.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 On 01/16/97, Adam Bridge wrote: >I'm looking at what it will take to get started writing NeXT software. >The price of admission, I have to admit, seems awfully high. Am I missing >something? And are there recommendations as to platform (since I'm going >to have to build a machine to run it). > The price of OpenStep developer is likely to come down soon. Originally it was thought that it would happen at Expo, but I doubt it will until the FTC approves the merger and the deal is done. -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 23 Jan 1997 20:55:39 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5c8j8b$10sg@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11125 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3687 comp.sys.next.programmer:22017 From article <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com>, by Bill Vareka : > Matthew Clay wrote: I didn't seem to say anything... >> >> From article <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org>, by toon@gaea.titan.org (Greg Titus): >> > Michael Hudson writes: >> >>Function overloading >> >>User defined type conversions >> > >> > Nope. These lose a lot of their utility when type isn't so important, as in >> > C++. I wrote that this was not the case, as any Prolog programmer would agree. > Is this true? Objective-C has no *function* overloading. I can > understand both sides to the arguments about *operator* overloading but > function overloading is > one of those features that, once you see it, > it seems so natural. instead of defining.. > > Draw(); > Draw(color *bkgrd); > Draw(float scaled); > now I'll need to regress back to: > Draw(); > DrawWithNewBckgrdColor(color *bkgrnd); > DrawScaledVersion(float scaled); That's correct. As Objective-C and Java mature and become mainstream, however they will face the same compelling arguments for new features as C++ did/does. The choices seem limited to following the same feature-rich path as C++ and being criticized as monstrosities, or striving for the minimality of C and being criticized as primitive. -mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uniserve!van0217.tvs.net!user From: acurylo@inmediapresents.com (Alex Curylo) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 11:09:40 -0800 Organization: InMedia Presentations Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: van0217.tvs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11126 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3688 comp.sys.next.programmer:22018 In article <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com>, dwy@ace.net (David Young) wrote: > Aha! No you're *not*! Objective-C to the rescue again, with "categories", > a totally powerful way to extend any class with new methods, regardless > of whether or not you have source. I find myself wishing for it all the > time in other lanaguages. Basically, you define a category of a class > with: > > @interface NSString (DavesExtendedNSString) > > and add methods you please, and every intance of NSString across the > applicaiton gets the new methods, which, when combined with anonymous > messaging, is very useful indeed... What gets me is how, if all these super-neat features like this that the Obj-C guys keep casually throwing out really do exist as described, why on earth did the universe at large adopt C++ instead? ---- Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 23 Jan 97 15:16:27 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-8-17.access.one.net In-reply-to: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu's message of 23 Jan 1997 10:26:08 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11127 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3689 comp.sys.next.programmer:22019 In article <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) writes: In article <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com>, none wrote: > (I don't really want a complete quicksort algorithm, but > somethnig that shows it would be possible) Internally, it's doing something like: id obj1 = [anArray objectAtIndex:i]; id obj2 = [anArray objectAtIndex:j]; if([obj1 compare:obj2] == NSOrderedDescending) { // swap elements [obj1 retain]; // keep the array from freeing obj1 when it is replaced at 'i' // don't have to worry about obj2, it gets retained by the first replace // and released by the second [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:i withObject:obj2]; [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:j withObject:obj1]; [obj1 release]; // decrement the reference count } I hope this works, it's just off the top of my head. Aighh! I would expect that NSArray is implemented internally as a pointer to a block of memory, and that they could just use qsort() with wrappers around -compare:. Something like: @implementation NSArray . static compare_wrapper( id obj1, id obj2) { return [obj1:compare:obj2]; } -(void)sortInPlace { qsort( [self getBaseOfArray], [self count], sizeof( id), compare_wrapper); } . @end Of course, that all has to be wrapped up in various sugar. For instance, you can sort an NSMutableArray in-place, but an NSArray can't be sorted in place ... from code using the API. _Internally_ it can be sorted in place easily enough :-). Also, the generic -sortUsingSelector: would have to store away the appropriate selector somewhere to be used by -performSelector:withObject:. In any case, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!ali.bc.ca!nobody From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk) Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Message-ID: Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca Reply-To: allan@cetus.ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk) Cc: billv@srsys.com Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc. Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:28:16 GMT References: <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <5c2pmq$fec@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Lines: 100 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11128 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3692 comp.sys.next.programmer:22020 In comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Bill Vareka wrote: > Is this true? Objective-C has no *function* overloading. I can understand both > sides to the arguments about *operator* overloading but function overloading is > one of those features that, once you see it, it seems so natural. > > instead of defining.. > > Draw(); > Draw(color *bkgrd); > Draw(float scaled); > > now I'll need to regress back to: > > Draw(); > DrawWithNewBckgrdColor(color *bkgrnd); > DrawScaledVersion(float scaled); > > Tell me it isn't so.... :-( Actually the syntax would be something like: - draw; - drawWithBackgroundColor:(Color *)aColor; - drawWithScale:(float)aScale; Which isn't really any more work to define than the overloaded C++ functions (except for longer names) and has the advantage that the calling code is more readable (ie. I don't have to figure out the type of the argument to tell which method is being called. If you really wanted to "overload" a method, note that you can define something like: - (void)drawWithObject:anObject { // This method does the appropriate drawing activity // for the provided argument object. if ([anObject isKindOfClass:[Color class]]) { // Treat the argument as the background // color to be used. .... return; } if ([anObject isKindOfClass:[NSNumber class]]) { // Treat the argument as the scale // factor to be used. ... return; } ... } But all this achieves in most situations is difficult to read and slightly less efficient code. For the most part, overloading is not something I care about. If the type of the argument is important, I probably have a purpose for the argument which should be reflected in the method name. If the type isn't important, then I am going to treat all of the objects essentially the same and I will just have one method (eg. addObject: ). Example: If I want to add a method to draw with a particular *foreground* color to your C++-ish example, I can't just define something like: Draw(color *foregrd); because there is already a Draw method with color argument. Instead, I'd have to have to define DrawWithForegroundColor(color *foregrd) Which is inconsistant with the other draw methods and leads to a confusing API. -- Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca ALI Technologies Voice: 604.279.5422 x 317 Richmond, Canada Fax: 604.279.5468 * NeXT and MIME mail welcome * "I have never seen anything fill up a vacuum so fast and still suck." -- Rob Pike, commenting on The X Window System #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!irz401!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Re: brk and sbrk Date: 23 Jan 97 15:09:37 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 91 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5c7pr0$4e6@crcnis3.unl.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-8-17.access.one.net In-reply-to: rdieter@math.unl.edu's message of 23 Jan 1997 13:41:51 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22021 comp.sys.next.software:27597 In article <5c7pr0$4e6@crcnis3.unl.edu>, rdieter@math.unl.edu (Rex Dieter) writes: I'm involved in a software porting venture... the software at hand uses the functions brk and sbrk. The NEXTSTEP man pages say these functions are not supported. Are there any other functions available to provide similar functionality? sbrk()/brk() are indeed there, though. Just not supported. I'd try them, first. Unfortunately, I don't know what the interface is, perhaps it'll be fine to snarf prototypes from another platform. [Aha, just a second ... int brk( void *end); void *sbrk( int incr);] If that's distasteful, you could probably emulate them to a great degree. I've never used brk()/sbrk(), but here goes (this code has never been compiled - don't look at me!): // 40M good enough? This isn't the value _actually_ allocated, // it's the amount of zerofill memory desired. You can run it // right off the scale if you want. It will wreak havoc with // your VSIZE in ps(1), of course. #define MaxSize (40*1024*1024) static void *__endCode=NULL; /* The "end" of code space. */ static void *__endData; /* The "end" of data space. */ // Allocate a MaxSize area "between" the end of code and the // stack. It's not really there, it just sounds like it is. // Returns the "end of code" pointer, which I think most // brk()/sbrk() users need. void *init_sbrk( void) { if( __endCode!=NULL) { return __endCode; } if( vm_allocate( task_self(), &__endCode, MaxSize, TRUE)!=KERN_SUCCESS) { errno=ENOMEM; return NULL; } // Mark the pages protected so you can't go in and screw // with them. vm_protect( task_self(), __endCode, MaxSize, FALSE, VM_PROT_NONE); vm_inherit( task_self(), __endCode, MaxSize, VM_INHERIT_COPY); __endData=__endCode; return __endCode; } // If newEnd is in range, let it go through. Everything between // __endCode and __endData is marked read/write, everything // paste __endData is marked free. int emu_brk( void *newEnd) { if( __endCode (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!rutgers!news.columbia.edu!news.new-york.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!140.174.136.8!batnet!usenet@batnet.com From: Bill Vareka Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:11:27 -0800 Organization: Stanford Research Systems Lines: 31 Message-ID: <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> References: <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <5c2pmq$fec@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: billv.srsys.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win16; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11129 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3693 comp.sys.next.programmer:22022 Matthew Clay wrote: > > From article <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org>, by toon@gaea.titan.org (Greg Titus): > > Michael Hudson writes: > > > >>Function overloading > >>User defined type conversions > > > > Nope. These lose a lot of their utility when type isn't so important, as in > > C++. > Is this true? Objective-C has no *function* overloading. I can understand both sides to the arguments about *operator* overloading but function overloading is one of those features that, once you see it, it seems so natural. instead of defining.. Draw(); Draw(color *bkgrd); Draw(float scaled); now I'll need to regress back to: Draw(); DrawWithNewBckgrdColor(color *bkgrnd); DrawScaledVersion(float scaled); Tell me it isn't so.... :-( bill vareka #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!news.gridnet.com.!opus1.com!opus1.com!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Event handling during tight loop Message-ID: <32E80C7B.8DD@running-start.com> From: Ralph Zazula Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:27 -0800 Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com References: <32e3b48a.0@192.33.12.30> Organization: Running Start, Inc. NNTP-Posting-Host: sierra.running-start.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jon klein Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 52 jon klein wrote: > > Hey, > I've got a tight loop in a program, and I'd like for it to be > interuptable by hitting a button. Without using threads, can somebody > help me with this procedure? Do I use [NXApp getNextEvent], and then > find an NX_MOUSEDOWN and manually check the coordinates to see if they > hit the button? > > -- > -jon klein > jklein@freon.artificial.com > > Caper will do it for me. I'm assuming this is a NEXTSTEP application (since you refer to NXApp). Yes, using getNextEvent:waitFor:threshold: will allow you to process events in your tight loop. If you see an event, you can dispatch it manually using sendEvent:. It probably wouldn't hurt to send all events since the user could then manipulate the menu (e.g., to hide or quit the app). The code might look something like this: - runLoop { NXEvent *event; while(![self done]) { /* run part of the long-running process */ [self computeALittle]; /* process events that have queued up */ while(event = [NXApp getNextEvent:NX_ALLEVENTS waitFor:0.0 threshold:NX_MODALRESPTHRESHOLD]) { /* send events -- possibly button clicks and stuff */ [NXApp sendEvent:event]; } } } Ralph -- Ralph Zazula Running Start, Inc. zazula@running-start.com 520/760-4890 (voice/fax) http://www.running-start.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 24 Jan 1997 03:13:26 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 43 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c99cm$n3l@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <5c2pmq$fec@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca8-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 23 7:13:27 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11130 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3696 comp.sys.next.programmer:22024 Bill Vareka wrote: > Is this true? Objective-C has no *function* overloading. I can understand both > sides to the arguments about *operator* overloading but function overloading is > one of those features that, once you see it, it seems so natural. > > instead of defining.. > > Draw(); > Draw(color *bkgrd); > Draw(float scaled); > > now I'll need to regress back to: > > Draw(); > DrawWithNewBckgrdColor(color *bkgrnd); > DrawScaledVersion(float scaled); Some of us don't view this as regression, but progress :-) Objective-C method names are very expressive and somewhat self-documenting *by convention*, so I wouldn't as happy trying to recall which of the following to use: - draw - draw:(NSColor *)aColor // How does draw: use aColor? - draw:(float)aFactor // How does draw: use aFactor? compared with - draw - drawWithBackgroundColor:(NSColor *)aColor - drawWithScalingFactor:(float)aFactor However, draw and draw: are 2 different Objective-C selectors, so the draw method is distinguishable from draw:. But the Objective-C runtime doesn't use return or argument types to distinguish among selectors. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:35:27 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: <32E81FEF.156B70AF@screaming.org> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5c7juq$7n5@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5c93k6$l5c@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54774 comp.sys.next.programmer:22025 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182132 comp.sys.mac.system:194054 John Kheit wrote: > But you are right...in and of ourselves...we don't amount to a hill > of beans (the NeXT community...)...well, on the other hand...we > are the biggest pool of Rhapsody developers out there :) ...suddenly panic-stricken Mac advocates worldwide develop an insatiable appetite for the OpenStep documentation on next.com... -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!insync!news.io.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 20:45:33 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <32E8143D.1586@exnext.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E655AD.55D3@exnext.com> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22026 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54775 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182135 comp.sys.mac.system:194057 Ted Brown wrote: > > In article <32E655AD.55D3@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > > >Travis Butler wrote: > > > >> Also, every GUI-driving-CLI system I've seen has had 'holes' where the > >> developers didn't provide a GUI shell for a CLI command... so that a user > >> has to learn the CLI to get some things done. The Mac GUI lets you do > >> *everything* - either directly or through GUI utilities. > > > >No, the Mac GUI does not let you do *everything*. If there is something > >that is not in the GUI, you *cannot* do it. Unless, of course, some > >nice programmer comes along and writes a program that lets it happen. > > And this differs from any other OS how? The CLI on NeXTSTEP (and others) allows access to functionality that hasn't been developed with a GUI. The Mac GUI has no 'holes' because there's less functionality there to begin with. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!usenet From: andylee@ucla.edu (Andy Lee) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Problem using MiscInspectorKit (MiscKit 1.9.0) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:23:22 GMT Organization: University of California, Los Angeles Lines: 32 Message-ID: <32e83488.154926334@news.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rod.cs.ucla.edu X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Hello, I am puzzled by a problem encountered with MiscInspectorKit and would appreciate any help or suggestion, i.e. what else could I use to implement inspectors? (NeXTstep FIP 3.3 User / 3.2 Dev) Following the SwapKit Tutorial in MiscKit, I created in my main project a master inspector manager with several inspector wrappers to load their respective .nib files. Inside each .nib file, the file owner is a wrapper, and there are several MiscInspectors to swap their views into the Inspector Panel. The prototype works great. Each wrapper loads and registers their MiscInspectors and swap their views into the Inspector Window. But when I subclass the MiscInspector to implement revert: in each, the program mysteriously cause a "memory access exception" error (in _class_lookupMethodAndLoadCache) during wrapper's [NXApp loadNibSection: owner:] call. (This is preceeded by error messages: "unrecognized -initialize message sent to instance of Window class", also to View, ScrollView, ClipView, DiagramView, LabelRep class in that order.) This is most puzzling because my subclasses of MiscInspector currently has NOTHING in it: no new instance variable, no revert:, no ok:, no methods, just empty skeleton of a subclass to MiscInspector. When I set in IB these subclasses back as MiscInspector, everything works. Any suggestion would be appreciated. Andy Lee andylee@ucla.edu andylee@netcom.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!night.primate.wisc.edu!ames!taligent!usenet From: Rich Gillam Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:27:42 -0800 Organization: Taligent, Inc. Lines: 31 Message-ID: <32E801FB.4475@taligent.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7es1$7bc2@ddfservb.technet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: richard-gillam.taligent.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11131 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3697 comp.sys.next.programmer:22028 >This is only possible (nicely) with templates. Objective-C doesn't >have templates, so it's not possible in Objective-C. The other >replies to your question show code to sort a set of objects of any >type. You can't add non-object types into these containers. Good point. Personally, I find the distinction between "objects" and "primitive types" one of the big flaws of C++, and I'm sorry that's it's also in Objective-C and Java. Another point is that while the examples will work with collections of any type, they won't (necessarily) work with collections where the elements are of DIFFERENT types. Unless the element types define comparison operations which compare them to not only other instances of the same type, but to instances of any other types that are represented in the collection (amd which are commutative), you'll either get bogus results or a runtime exception. There is no way (I think) to define a collection such that it is guaranteed to hold only instances of a certain type. You'll also get a runtime error if you stick objects into the collection that don't recognize the "compare" operation. Of course, in C++ you'll get a compile-time error for doing this, but it won't be particularly helpful a lot of the time. I may be wrong about all this because I've never coded in Objective-C. I'm just going on the comments others have made thus far in this thread. Feel free to set me straight. --Rich Gillam Text geek Taligent #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!szdc!brubeck From: brubeck@wport.com (Matt Brubeck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:31:17 -0800 Organization: Zip News Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5c8h0g$9sf@news.digifix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22029 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54781 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182160 comp.sys.mac.system:194077 In article <5c8h0g$9sf@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: >> A universally available format with the features of Stuffit (random >> access wise) and the free/clear compression algorithms of gzip >> would be a huge winner > > Of course they'd have to store the multi-forked Apple files in some >special manner in the archive, but that shouldn't be a big deal. There must >be a good multi-forked Apple file 'flatten' format available right? Other >than BinHex that is.. It's called MacBinary. ,--------------.-------------------. | Matt Brubeck I brubeck@wport.com | `--------------^-------------------' #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-16.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: Bill Bumgarner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: mmap/munmap under mach Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:29:21 -0500 Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32E98C21.2568@friday.com> Reply-To: bbum@friday.com NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh2-port76.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) To: next-prog@omnigroup.com X-Priority: Normal Does anyone have mmap() and munmap() equivalents for mach [under OS4.1]? I ask because I'm in the midst of porting msql-- if someone either has source to emulations of both functions, or has already done the port, please let me know. BTW: It appears that mmap exists within the OS-- even madvise is present. But compilation reveals that the munmap() function is undefined. As I do not have the implementation details of mmap(), I cannot undo whatever it does (maybe just a vm_dealloc() would work? Likely...?). thank you, b.bum #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!news.cerf.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:46:50 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <32E7176A.7732@exnext.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c6qhu$r1v@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22031 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182168 comp.sys.mac.system:194094 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54785 William Raphael Hix wrote: > Mostly we're trying to assuage our anxiety about our prefered platform. > I wrote to this thread hoping to see where the compromise of Mac and > NeXT users would lead. I just don't see Apple shipping for $100 the > same OS which NeXT sold for $800. Perhaps the ecomomy of scale will pay > off this well. The academic price for OPENSTEP/Mach (including development tools) is around $295. The $800 price is probably so high so that NeXT could continue to exist despite few OS sales. There's no particular reason for the new OS to cost $800. Materials certainly don't cost $800. The development of the OS is essentially paid for. Apple is probably more concerned with survival than with recouping the $400 million, and they'll never recoup all the money they blew on Copland. The only real issues are license payments, profit margin, and market pressures. Apple knows they can't charge too much for the OS. I'd guess that, at most, it'll cost as much as NT Workstation. Probably less, since Apple desperately needs widespread adoption of the new OS. I wouldn't be surprised to see a special introductory price. Then again, I could be completely wrong. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-angers.fr!ciril.fr!loria.fr!usenet From: colnet@loria.fr (Dominique Colnet) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.eiffel Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 24 Jan 1997 09:22:48 GMT Organization: CRIN & INRIA-Lorraine - Nancy - FRANCE Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5c9v18$95r@muller.loria.fr> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> <32E6A101.7010@acm.org> <32E85082.37DE@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: gerome.loria.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-newsreader: xrn 8.01 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11132 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3698 comp.sys.next.programmer:22032 comp.lang.eiffel:13986 In article <32E85082.37DE@acm.org>, Ian Joyner writes: |> > In the meantime, I meant it when I said I would consider switching to |> > Eiffel for my next project. But when will an _industrial_ version be |> > available for the Mac? |> |> I think there is only SmallEiffel, which is a university freebee, Before buying an industrial version for the Macintosh do not forget to try SmallEiffel first. I think that our results are quite impressive. Precompiled version for 68000 and PPC are available. |> and SIG computers version. Apple is probably doing a good job of |> scaring off prospective compiler developers right now. Let's hope |> they get sorted out (I would love to do MacApp again). In fact it |> was after a MacApp project that I saw Eiffel and thought it a |> worthy successor to Object Pascal. It's a shame Apple didn't pick |> up on the idea. SIG is probably more industrial strength. |> |> Perhaps someone should encourage Metrowerks to get together with |> an Eiffel compiler vendor or someone willing to write an Eiffel |> compiler for CW. It sounds like they would be a really good match. |> Having already written an Eiffel compiler in Pascal, I'm willing |> to volunteer. Yes, but it is now time to use Eiffel to write Eiffel compilers :-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Dominique COLNET -- Talk Eiffel with SmallEiffel Talk Eiffel C.R.I.N. (Centre de Recherche en Informatique de Nancy) POST: CRIN,BP 239,54506 Vandoeuvre les Nancy Cedex,FRANCE EMAIL: colnet@loria.fr VOICE:+33 0383593079 FAX:+33 0383413079 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: dlehn@crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us (David I. Lehn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: 24 Jan 1997 04:09:42 GMT Organization: Virginia Tech Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5c9cm6$otb$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> References: <5bq73r$e18$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> Reply-To: dlehn@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: crib.bevc.blacksburg.va.us X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 BETA-950824-color PL0] Cary Farrier (farrier@apple.com) (antispam@apple.com) wrote: > In article <5bq73r$e18$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>, dlehn@vt.edu wrote: > > > Is Apple going to push Sprockets for Rhapsody? > > Yep. We're looking into the technical aspects right now. > Perhaps a better question: Will a game framework become part of the OpenStep spec? After GNUstep matures games would be very portable! Having a well thought out standard API for sound, input, speech, 3D, quicktime, buffering, etc would be great. -NSDave --- David I. Lehn | http://www.vt.edu:10021/D/dlehn/ Computer Engineering Student @ Virginia Tech in sunny Blacksburg, VA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!news.informatik.uni-kiel.de!usenet From: Tim Weilkiens Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: mmap/munmap under mach Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:34:30 +0100 Organization: Institute of Computer Science, University of Kiel, Germany Lines: 151 Message-ID: <32E89036.75E2@informatik.uni-kiel.de> References: <32E98C21.2568@friday.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: rowlf.informatik.uni-kiel.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------33FC6A391CE2" X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) To: bbum@friday.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------33FC6A391CE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Bumgarner wrote: > > Does anyone have mmap() and munmap() equivalents for mach [under OS4.1]? > > I ask because I'm in the midst of porting msql-- if someone either has > source to emulations of both functions, or has already done the port, > please let me know. > > BTW: It appears that mmap exists within the OS-- even madvise is > present. But compilation reveals that the munmap() function is > undefined. As I do not have the implementation details of mmap(), I > cannot undo whatever it does (maybe just a vm_dealloc() would work? > Likely...?). > I attached a patch which was posted on the msql Mailinglist. For me its works fine. Tim -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ( o ) "Paddington on the Rocks" ()~*~() (_)-(_) Tim Weilkiens, Kiel, Germany /\ / \/\ Tim.Weilkiens@kiel.netsurf.de /\ / \ tim-w@pz-oekosys.uni-kiel.d400.de --------------33FC6A391CE2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="mmap.next.path" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="mmap.next.path" From owner-msql-list@bunyip.com Fri Jan 10 04:21:27 1997 Received: from services.Bunyip.Com by skadi.informatik.uni-kiel.de with SMTP id AA10949 (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2 for twe); Fri, 10 Jan 97 04:21:14 GMT Received: (from daemon@localhost) by services.bunyip.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) id LAA22625 for msql-list-out; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:32:05 -0500 Received: from mocha.bunyip.com (mocha.Bunyip.Com [192.197.208.1]) by services.bunyip.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA22620 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 11:32:03 -0500 Received: from lca.u-nancy.fr by mocha.bunyip.com with SMTP (5.65a/IDA-1.4.2b/CC-Guru-2b) id AA03177 (mail destined for msql-list@services.bunyip.com); Thu, 9 Jan 97 11:31:49 -0500 Received: from labserver by lca.lca.u-nancy.fr (NX5.67e/NX3.0M) id AA01340; Thu, 9 Jan 97 17:34:24 +0100 Message-Id: <9701091634.AA01340@lca.lca.u-nancy.fr> Received: by labserver.lca.u-nancy.fr (NX5.67f2/NX3.0X) id AA09936; Thu, 9 Jan 97 17:33:29 +0100 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: <32D4D194.4945@ahand.unicamp.br> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.0) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Etienne Klein Date: Thu, 9 Jan 97 17:33:27 +0100 To: msql-list@bunyip.com Subject: [mSQL] Solve: mmap patch for NeXTSTEP References: <32D4D194.4945@ahand.unicamp.br> Sender: owner-msql-list@bunyip.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: msql-list@bunyip.com Errors-To: owner-msql-list@bunyip.com Status: RO Hi, I just want to share this little patch wich solve the mmap problem for NeXTSTEP. It apparently works (meaning all msql tests are OK) for: NSFIP 3.3 p1 NS Motorola 3.3 p1. It does NOT work for HP 3.2 All other configurations are untested ! Thanks to the authors Fabien Roy and Robert Ehrlich for this patch ! Etienne Klein Laboratoire de Chimie Analytique Faculte de Pharmacie de Nancy France /* * @(#)map.c 1.0 of 20 December 1996 * * Copyright (c) 1996 by Fabien Roy. * Written by Fabien Roy and Robert Ehrlich. * Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.fr Robert.Ehrlich@inria.fr * Not derived from licensed software. * * Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any * purpose on any computer system, and to redistribute it freely, * subject to the following restrictions: * * 1. The author is not responsible for the consequences of use of * this software, no matter how awful, even if they arise * from defects in it. * * 2. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented, either * by explicit claim or by omission. * * 3. Altered versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not * be misrepresented as being the original software. * */ #include #include #include #include caddr_t mmap(caddr_t addr, size_t len, int prot, int flags, int fd, off_t off) { int pagelessone = getpagesize() -1; int size; caddr_t pageaddress; /* round to next page size */ size = (len + pagelessone) & ~pagelessone; /* allocate aligned pages */ if (!(pageaddress = (caddr_t) valloc(size))) return (caddr_t) -1; /* map it */ if (syscall(SYS_mmap, pageaddress, size, prot, flags, fd, off)){ free(pageaddress); return (caddr_t) -1; } return pageaddress; } void munmap(caddr_t addr, size_t len) { syscall(SYS_munmap,addr,len); free(addr); } -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To remove yourself from the Mini SQL mailing list send a message containing "unsubscribe" to msql-list-request@bunyip.com. Send a message containing "info msql-list" to majordomo@bunyip.com for info on monthly archives of the list. For more help, mail owner-msql-list@bunyip.com NOT the msql-list! --------------33FC6A391CE2-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!psinntp!psinntp!bbnews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.eiffel Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:02:42 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 55 Message-ID: <32E85082.37DE@acm.org> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> <32E6A101.7010@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11134 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3699 comp.sys.next.programmer:22035 comp.lang.eiffel:13991 Anders, Anders Pytte wrote: > > Ian, > > I was hoping someone would do the job of slaying me, and rather painlessly > at that. I repent: there was no error of assumption on your part; by the > same reasoning, nor was your critique alarmest. > > However, the main part of my conclusion, I believe, stands: it is still > possible to create excellent products at competitive cost using C++, > because the cost of this language's flaws, when prudently managed, is > small compared to its benefits (excellent support, wide availability of > tools and environments and skilled programmers, etc.). This is what i > meant when i agreed with Stroustrup. OK, you can use a careful subset of C++ to make your program more disciplined, and as long as your developers play ball, more cost efficient. However, I think such programming wisdom should be designed into a language to start with, so that you don't have arguments over style, or have to break in new programmers who have come from different environments. I think Eiffel is a language that is well designed from that perspective. However, you still have to use some of the uglier features of C++ such as its implementation of multiple inheritance, associated scope resolution and templates. These are good things to add to the language, but I would rather daily deal with cleaner implementations of them. And I would rather the compiler did more of the tedious manual work for me, which would result in being able to change things easier, and thus a much better maintenance cycle. > In the meantime, I meant it when I said I would consider switching to > Eiffel for my next project. But when will an _industrial_ version be > available for the Mac? I think there is only SmallEiffel, which is a university freebee, and SIG computers version. Apple is probably doing a good job of scaring off prospective compiler developers right now. Let's hope they get sorted out (I would love to do MacApp again). In fact it was after a MacApp project that I saw Eiffel and thought it a worthy successor to Object Pascal. It's a shame Apple didn't pick up on the idea. SIG is probably more industrial strength. Perhaps someone should encourage Metrowerks to get together with an Eiffel compiler vendor or someone willing to write an Eiffel compiler for CW. It sounds like they would be a really good match. Having already written an Eiffel compiler in Pascal, I'm willing to volunteer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!si-nic!usenet From: moellney@simtec.imr.mb.uni-siegen.de (Michael Mllney) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: EOModeler OS4.1/NT Date: 24 Jan 1997 12:07:15 GMT Organization: Uni Siegen Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5ca8lj$4cn@si-nic.hrz.uni-siegen.de> Reply-To: moellney@simtec.imr.mb.uni-siegen.de (Michael Mllney) NNTP-Posting-Host: simtec.imr.mb.uni-siegen.de X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Hi I just wanted to start to learn sth about EOModeler and the EOF Concept. First step: get a database with ODBC option a) got DB2/NT Server 2.1.2 (IBM try & buy 60 days) which hse an ODBC adaptor option b) got postgres95/OS4.0/MACH with postodbc (po020-32.tgz) for the nt-side both installed well. Both databases work fine with MS-Access connected over ODBC. Whenever I start EOModeler saying NEW and choose ODBC, set the ODBC-name there's a lot working on the machine and then a protected memory -error comes up and say i have to quit EOModeler. Oh yes, I downloaded and installed the ODBC-NT Patch from next-answers has anybody had such experiences, how did you work around them, what is it what I#m doing wrong? bye, Michael -- Michael Mllney Paul-Bonatz-Strae 9-11, Raum 426/2 57068 Siegen Tel: +49-271-740-4724 moellney@simtec.imr.mb.uni-siegen.de #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news5.digex.net!phcs!papoose.quick.com!papoose.quick.com!not-for-mail From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 24 Jan 1997 06:59:48 -0500 Organization: PHCS Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5ca87k$cu3@papoose.quick.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: papoose.quick.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54805 comp.sys.mac.system:194130 comp.sys.next.programmer:22037 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182221 In article <32E5F50A.2637@spvi.com>, Steve Spicklemire wrote: >OK.. so what happens when I get my shiny new GUI app that expects >'system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... )' to work and the user neglected to >install 'tar'? Are all these unix utilities so enourmous that we really >want to risk breaking so much code? I would think the whole spiel >compares in size (more or less) to a complete installation of any modern >office productivity suite. :-) An office utility suite weighs in at several hundred MB. Standard Unix executables are a small fraction of this. The combined disk space for the standard Unix executables is between 15 and 20 MB. Chump change. Considering that SCSI devices less than 1GB aren't even being made anymore and 2GB is now the entry level standard, this space is not an issue. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Private HealthCare Systems NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | Systems Integration Group (617) 895-3343 ) | "I don't think so," said Rene Descartes. Just then, he vanished. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster From: amando@gcomm.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Hashtable usage Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:53:11 +0200 Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32E86A67.652C@gcomm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ld56-225.compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) I am very new in the Next world and I have a question that I think can be easily answered by you, the next guru's. I need a function to make different serial numbers from an order number. For example, make a different serial number for each sale I made. I have read that a hash table is the method for doing this, but I am not very sure. For example, if the order number is 1, can I have a serial number of 8 digits that will not be used in the following orders numbers?, or I am wrong. Please, tell me information and excuses for the English. Thanks in Advance! Amando Blasco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!feeder.chicago.cic.net!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster From: amando@gcomm.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Hashtable usage Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 09:58:06 +0200 Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32E86B8E.73A4@gcomm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ld56-225.compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Macintosh; I; 68K) I am very new in the Next world and I have a question that I think can be easily answered by you, the next guru's. I need a function to make different serial numbers from an order number. For example, make a different serial number for each sale I made. I have read that a hash table is the method for doing this, but I am not very sure. For example, if the order number is 1, can I have a serial number of 8 digits that will not be used in the following orders numbers?, or I am wrong. Please, tell me information and excuses for the English. Thanks in Advance! Amando Blasco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!taurus!news From: "David Every" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 24 Jan 97 08:09:41 +0000 Organization: adnc.com Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.158.13.24 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a1 X-News-Servers: news.adnc.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.mac.system Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22040 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54830 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182258 comp.sys.mac.system:194157 Jonathan W. Hendry > Oh, that's right. Apple's marketshare is dwindling. Apple's > traditional markets are moving to Windows. Schools, homes, graphics > professionals. You are incorrect... Macs marketshare was flat last quarter. Since marketshare is a measurement of sales at a given time - and the computer market is growing - then Macs units are growing as well - just at the same rate as the rest of the industry (no faster or slower). I beleive sales of Macs (and compatibles) was at 5.1 million last year (96) as opposed to 4.5 million for '95. That is not exactly losing ground. Apple has given a little ground to its compatibles - but Macs are selling more units than ever. > Evidently, Apple must not be selling what people want > anymore. Apple isn't even holding on to their *current* customers. Funny.... 5.1 million machines last year.... that seems like pretty good sales volume to me. > Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully > sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% > marketshare. A 16% increase in Mac marketshare. Furthermore, it's > an increase, which Apple hasn't seen in many moons. Sure... Apple should focus on 1% of the marketplace instead of say 50%?!? Apple needs to make a good OS. The best that they can - then let the marketplace sort itself out. -- David K. Every MacKiDo Warrior - The Power of the Macintosh Way! -- =A91997 DKE. Non-exclusive, royalty free license to distribute is granted to any service provider except Microsoft. By distributing this, Microsoft agrees to pay $1,000 per posting. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Remote cvs and .nib wrappers Date: 24 Jan 97 12:16:09 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 39 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <5c3g9c$m2n@nntp1.best.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-8.access.one.net In-reply-to: deniseh@nntp.best.com's message of 21 Jan 1997 22:34:20 GMT In article <5c3g9c$m2n@nntp1.best.com>, deniseh@nntp.best.com (Denise Howard) writes: Scott Hess (shess@one.net) wrote: : I've been exploring the remote features of cvs. Unfortunately, : it seems that remote cvs doesn't work in combination with : wrappers, so cvs can't handle .nib files in the repository. Has : anyone gotten that working? Art Isbell (aisbell@cubicsol.com) wrote a couple of items that will help you. I don't have them myself anymore since I no longer use CVS at work, but what they'll do is tar and compress the nib, so that you can then check the result into CVS like any other file. There was a tweak he made to the Makefile.preamble and Makefile.postamble, too, I think. I snarfed CVS.NIHS.bs.tar.gz from ftp.peak.org. This is a package with an InterfaceBuilder palette which intercepts .nib saves. It then copies the CVS directory from the .nib~ file back to the .nib file itself. Unfortunately, it's for NeXTSTEP. Fortunately, with very little effort, I ported it to OpenStep/Mach. Most of the code's gone, but most of the ideas are the same. That wasn't much help, though, because I could already use wrappers fine on OpenStep/Mach. With substantially more effort, I managed to port it to OpenStep/NT. So now I can potentially do without wrappers for .nib files (.rtfd I didn't care one way or the other) on NeXTSTEP, OpenStep/Mach, and OpenStep/NT. Now all I need is CVS for NT (speak up, someone, before I port it myself!). See my homepage for OSCVS.tar.gz, which is the source to the palette for OpenStep. Sorry, no binaries, worse yet, NO SUPPORT. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!winx03!news From: Rainer Frohnhfer Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Once again --- pthreads for NeXTSTEP? Date: 24 Jan 1997 14:43:07 GMT Organization: University of Wuerzburg, Germany Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5cahpr$tk2@winx03.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> Reply-To: rainer@wmax60.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de NNTP-Posting-Host: wmax71.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Hi, this has been asked several times before: Where can I get a pthreads package for NeXTSTEP? ftp.hasc.ca doesn't exist anymore (apparently), and I couldn't find this anywhere else. And, yes, I know about cthreads. Any pointers welcome, Rainer -- ------------------------------------- "Um Energie zu sparen, wird das Licht am Ende des Tunnels vorlaeufig abgeschaltet." rainer@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (finger cip@mathematik for public key ...) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.rwth-aachen.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!not-for-mail From: stefan.boehringer@rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Stefan Boehringer) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: mktime() Date: 24 Jan 1997 20:47:32 GMT Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5cb754$ruo$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> References: <32E65D33.446B@mit.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialppp-3-96.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Pascal Chesnais wrote: > We are having problems here with mktime under nextstep 3.3 > has anyone else run into this? Putting today's time gets > us a wrong return value (on the order of 3 year!!!) I had similar problems. Just look into the misckit. One of the more recent releases contains mktime replacements in the MiscTime class. Just copy them over. - Stefan Bhringer #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3 Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 24 Jan 97 15:37:35 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1bka$sdo@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <5b1inf$996@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5b1ovj$tm6@nntp1.apple.com> <5b23sa$48e@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-13.access.one.net In-reply-to: shess@one.net's message of 16 Jan 97 10:48:07 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3702 comp.sys.next.programmer:22044 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11135 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: In article , Charles W Swiger writes: As for the size and performance of Obj-C based applications, I would suggest trying it before worrying about problems that most people don't encounter. C++ advocates always seem to imply there is a big tradeoff here, but I cannot recall ever seeing a NEXTSTEP developer (someone who has actually released commercial software) state that the size and performance of Obj-C was a significant problem. Fact of the matter is, most NeXTSTEP apps which are slow are slow because the developer didn't spend enough time looking at what the app is doing. If your app is drawing the same scene multiple times without changing it, then even if your language gives you 100% of the hardware's capability, it could be slower than an interpretted language which only draws the scene _once_. I've recently been reading some literature that indicates that even C++'s dispatch advantage is somewhat under pressure. It appears that VTBLs, which fairly efficient under 80's era processors, are less so under 90's processors. The instructions are such that they can't be easily pipelined because they each depend on the previous instruction to a great degree. Dynamic dispatch mechanisms have more instructions, yes, but the overall execution time is no longer related entirely to instruction count, and dynamic dispatch is getting _relatively_ better. OTOH, it's pretty easy to understand that code bloat from templates and such will not improve performance, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 24 Jan 1997 17:24:07 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c9g5b$nrl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm0a2.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22045 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54835 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182272 comp.sys.mac.system:194187 In article <5c9g5b$nrl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > In article , jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) wrote: > > I said once and I'll say again, I could deal with having to put > > everything in the applications folder if I decided to treat it like it was > > a hard disk. It's very simple. Instead of having the hard disk icon on my > > screen, I'd have the application folder icon on my screen. Open it and it > > would look like a hard disk, with apps, documents, organized as I wanted > > them to be. > Of course, NEXTSTEP users would freak out if they saw you putting > documents in the applications folder. :) (Not that you couldn't do > that if you wanted, of course.. it's just really weird..) Not really :) Suppose I have a bunch of animated gifs, that are only used to put on web pages and can only be worked on by a few programs. I can drag and drop them on whichever one I please- why should they not be in a folder which contains each app? However, mostly I'll have folders like 'writing' or a 'notes' folder in a context such as 'HTML' or 'Marathon'- having the Notes in a centralized loaction would require extra information in each title, and I would have to navigate to it rather than have the informationn right there when I'm working in that context :) Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.ums.edu!haven.umd.edu!dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu!vdal5.eng.umd.edu!no_spam From: no_spam@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 24 Jan 1997 18:43:33 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5cavsl$8lg@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vdal5.eng.umd.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22046 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54841 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182280 comp.sys.mac.system:194199 David Every (dke@adnc.com) wrote: : Since marketshare is a measurement of sales at a given time - and the : computer market is growing - then Macs units are growing as well - : just at the same rate as the rest of the industry (no faster or : slower). I beleive sales of Macs (and compatibles) was at 5.1 million : last year (96) as opposed to 4.5 million for '95. That is not exactly : losing ground. Apple has given a little ground to its compatibles - : but Macs are selling more units than ever. : Funny.... 5.1 million machines last year.... that seems like pretty : good sales volume to me. Apple itself shipped About 4 Million Units in Fiscal 1996. Could you tell me where you saw the 5.1 Million units number? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!usenet From: andylee@ucla.edu (Andy Lee) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Problem using MiscInspectorKit (MiscKit 1.9.0) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:06:25 GMT Organization: University of California, Los Angeles Lines: 42 Message-ID: <32e93164.219667948@news.ucla.edu> References: <32e83488.154926334@news.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rod.cs.ucla.edu X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 I solved the problem by naming the subclass of MiscInspector as MiscInspector. Hm... that's just strange. :-) Andy Lee On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 04:23:22 GMT, andylee@ucla.edu (Andy Lee) wrote: >Hello, > >I am puzzled by a problem encountered with MiscInspectorKit and would >appreciate any help or suggestion, i.e. what else could I use to >implement inspectors? (NeXTstep FIP 3.3 User / 3.2 Dev) > > Following the SwapKit Tutorial in MiscKit, I created in my main >project a master inspector manager with several inspector wrappers to >load their respective .nib files. Inside each .nib file, the file >owner is a wrapper, and there are several MiscInspectors to swap their >views into the Inspector Panel. > >The prototype works great. Each wrapper loads and registers their >MiscInspectors and swap their views into the Inspector Window. But >when I subclass the MiscInspector to implement revert: in each, the >program mysteriously cause a "memory access exception" error (in >_class_lookupMethodAndLoadCache) during wrapper's [NXApp >loadNibSection: owner:] call. (This is preceeded by error messages: >"unrecognized -initialize message sent to instance of Window class", >also to View, ScrollView, ClipView, DiagramView, LabelRep class in >that order.) > >This is most puzzling because my subclasses of MiscInspector currently >has NOTHING in it: no new instance variable, no revert:, no ok:, no >methods, just empty skeleton of a subclass to MiscInspector. When I >set in IB these subclasses back as MiscInspector, everything works. > >Any suggestion would be appreciated. > >Andy Lee >andylee@ucla.edu >andylee@netcom.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:03:06 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22048 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54844 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182284 comp.sys.mac.system:194210 Followups redirected out of c.s.n.programmer and c.s.m.system. Let's try to move non-relevent threads out of those two newsgroups.... Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 24-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by "David Every"@adnc.com >> Let's see. Apple has about 6% marketshare. If Apple can successfully >> sell to the 1% of users who want Unix, that would give Apple 7% >> marketshare. A 16% increase in Mac marketshare. Furthermore, it's >> an increase, which Apple hasn't seen in many moons. > > Sure... Apple should focus on 1% of the marketplace instead of say > 50%?!? Possibly-- the current size of a marketplace is only one factor. The needs and pocketbooks of a smaller market can sometimes make it a more attactive choice. For example, the license fees for some of the higher-end Unix software packages (for things like an WebObjects/EOF/DO server on the Internet, or an Oracle DB server, or specialized software for things like hospitals & medical usage) are often in the range of $25,000, and consulting rates for those specialized markets are generally lucrative, too. I am not saying that Apple should be strictly motivated by money, but the possible financial value of a market is far more important than raw marketshare in terms of numbers of users. Marketshare _times_ the per-seat profit (or net worth, or invested capital, or whatever similar measure you want to use) is a better estimate of the importance of a market. For all that Apple sells far more Macs per year than Sun sells SPARCstations, Sun is a bigger company because the Unix server market is worth a lot more per seat. Both Sun and NeXT made more money from doing consulting, training, and software sales then they ever have from selling hardware. Ellen Hancock's comments suggest that Apple is becoming more aware of this, and my opinion is that it's a more sensible way of deciding what your company should do than a blind drive towards getting more marketshare than Microsoft does. > Apple needs to make a good OS. The best that they can - then let the > marketplace sort itself out. I completely agree with you. But I think it would serve Apple well to capture a strong position selling their new OS to the customers that NeXT has sold to-- things like large banks and financial houses, Wall Street, Internet service providers, and other vertical-market customers. This in combination with a large percentage of the current Mac userbase would be a much healthier market.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 24 Jan 1997 22:37:08 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5cbdik$r4d@darla.visi.com> References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E801FB.4475@taligent.com> <5c9gjf$qtb@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11137 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3705 comp.sys.next.programmer:22049 Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: : > you'll either get bogus results or a runtime exception. : > There is no way (I think) to define a : > collection such that it is guaranteed to hold only instances of a : > certain type. : : There's nothing preventing you from writing or subclassing a collection : class that will refuse to hold more than one type of object. Yeah. It would've been a little inflexible of NeXT to limit NSArray to one type. Having a different class for every type would lead to class overload, like a certain framework from... um, nevermind. Alternately, you could extend NSArray with a category to sort using a "smart" sorter (preferably in some other class) which could determine the classes of the objects to be compared at runtime and dynamically load the required comparison class.. :) [trim] -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.bconnex.net!news2.insinc.net!news.solect.com!usenet From: Tim Desjardins Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: XDR on NeXTStep Developer 3.2? Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:23:25 -0500 Organization: Solect Technology Group Lines: 3 Message-ID: <32E9446C.3C8B@solect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: keeper.solect.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) Where can I find the library for the xdr routines on Developer 3.2? Thanks, #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:34:06 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <32E91CBE.56EF@exnext.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c9g5b$nrl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22051 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54853 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182305 comp.sys.mac.system:194236 Chris Johnson wrote: > Not really :) > Suppose I have a bunch of animated gifs, that are only used to put on > web pages and can only be worked on by a few programs. I can drag and drop > them on whichever one I please- why should they not be in a folder which > contains each app? However, mostly I'll have folders like 'writing' or a > 'notes' folder in a context such as 'HTML' or 'Marathon'- having the Notes > in a centralized loaction would require extra information in each title, > and I would have to navigate to it rather than have the informationn right > there when I'm working in that context :) I guess that NeXT users would find this weird since we're used to having applications that we don't 'own', and since it's a multiuser network OS. For instance, Edit.app is found in /NextApps. It's local to each machine. If you saved your documents with it, you'd lose access to them if you move to another machine. For some apps, this wouldn't be a problem, of course, if they're on a Net-mounted directory. Sysadmins often prefer to leave the Apps directories (other than the one in your home directory) read-only, so that users aren't installing weird or pirated software. When you get into a 1,000 users on a global WAN, storing documents with the applications definitely becomes problematic. ;) I generally put my documents in ~/Library, with appropriate subfolders. You might have ~/Library/notes, ~/Library/HTML, ~/Library/Marathon, etc. I put my programming stuff in ~/Develop. OTOH, my home directory often contains a bunch of cruft I've forgotten to throw out. ;) It works out rather well. I tend to organize other OS's the same way. Cruft included. ;) NeXTSTEP's Open and Save panels default to your home directory, IIRC. So storing Edit documents in /NextApps would be more work than putting them in ~/Library, since you'd have to do more browsing to get there. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-15.sprintlink.net!news.rain.net!news.teleport.com!ip-salem2-22.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:54:15 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5c8h0g$9sf@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem2-22.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1"; URL= Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22052 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54854 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182308 comp.sys.mac.system:194238 In article <5c8h0g$9sf@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote: > Of course they'd have to store the multi-forked Apple files in some >special manner in the archive, but that shouldn't be a big deal. ZipIt already does this, it can MacBinarize a file before adding it to the archive although according to its documentation, there are some problems with this. -- Joel Klecker PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly. I said I don't know." -- Mark Twain #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:23:01 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: <32E93645.21D43FE@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c9g5b$nrl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E91CBE.56EF@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22053 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54855 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182309 comp.sys.mac.system:194239 Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > Chris Johnson wrote: > > > > Suppose I have a bunch of animated gifs, that are only used to put on > > web pages and can only be worked on by a few programs. I can drag and drop > > them on whichever one I please- why should they not be in a folder which > > contains each app? However, mostly I'll have folders like 'writing' or a > > 'notes' folder in a context such as 'HTML' or 'Marathon'- having the Notes > > in a centralized loaction would require extra information in each title, > > and I would have to navigate to it rather than have the informationn right > > there when I'm working in that context :) > > I guess that NeXT users would find this weird since we're used to > having applications that we don't 'own', and since it's a multiuser > network OS. > > For instance, Edit.app is found in /NextApps. It's local to each > machine. If you saved your documents with it, you'd lose access > to them if you move to another machine. A traditional multi-machine environment would have the user's home directory on an NFS server, with the user authentication done by a NetInfo or NIS server. The mountpoint for the home directories would be the same on all the machines so that any person could walk up to any NeXTstep machine and still get their own environment and data. A setup where a user could not access their data when they logged onto another machine is poorly administered. ----- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.maz.net!news.is-europe.net!news2.shlink.de!gamelan.shnet.org!thomas From: thomas@gamelan.shnet.org._NO_SPAM (Thomas Funke) Subject: Re: mmap/munmap under mach Message-ID: <1997Jan24.113948.592@gamelan.shnet.org> Sender: thomas@gamelan.shnet.org (thomas) Cc: bbum@friday.com Organization: Disorganization X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) X-No-Archive: yes References: <32E98C21.2568@friday.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:39:48 GMT Lines: 95 In <32E98C21.2568@friday.com> Bill Bumgarner wrote: > Does anyone have mmap() and munmap() equivalents for mach [under OS4.1]? > > I ask because I'm in the midst of porting msql-- if someone either has > source to emulations of both functions, or has already done the port, > please let me know. > > BTW: It appears that mmap exists within the OS-- even madvise is > present. But compilation reveals that the munmap() function is > undefined. As I do not have the implementation details of mmap(), I > cannot undo whatever it does (maybe just a vm_dealloc() would work? > Likely...?). > > This was posted a while ago in the net: From: tagoldth@camtwh.eric.on.ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software Subject: NeXT mmap() summary Date: 3 Mar 1995 19:52:07 GMT Organization: The Eye Research Institute of Canada Lines: 61 Distribution: world Message-ID: <3j7s17$a9q@sator.eric.on.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: camtwh.eric.on.ca Summary: it does work, but not as a normal mmap Keywords: tied to NeXT Mach vm_ functions Hi All, After receiving *many* requests asking if I got the answer of how NeXT implemented mmap(), I am posting a simple summary (please don't ask for more details, I need my sleep :-) ). mmap() on the NeXT Mach OS works, but the semantics of allocation are changed, here are the details: - Under normal OS (whatever that is :-) ) - mmap first argument can specify - pointer value 0 (which means os finds suitable location for the map) - pointer value as suggestion on where to do the map - mmap will do the actual page allocations for you. - Under NeXT OS - first argument is pointer to region user has allocated using vm_allocate(). Here's a simple example: #include or import whats appropriate, such as mman.h etc ... vm_allocate((vm_task_t)task_self(), (vm_address_t*)&addr, 8192,TRUE); mmap((caddr_t)addr,(size_t)256,PROT_READ|PROT_WRITE, MAP_SHARED,fd,(off_t)0); .... - In the above, addr is a character pointer and fd the open file descriptor of what I want to mmap(). - I have tested it for sharing pages among processes (as I use it on other os'es) and it appears to work properly, see Big_Disclaimer below. - You can create wrapper functions, #ifdefs, etc, to merge the NeXT OS style mmap() code with code for other machines. - I didn't see a munmap() in the symbols of the libraries, so I just used vm_deallocate(). I assume here that the mmap goes away automagically when I deallocate the region. See Big_Disclaimer below.... Disclaimer: The above is written late at night, just to test it, and is not written to handle every case. Please look at the NeXT vm_* routine descriptions in the Librarian, and in the man pages on a SunOS machine (or other suitable machine with mmap implemented) for a description of how mmap() normally should work). Big_Disclaimer: NeXT supplies no man page for mmap(), so even though it works above, this could suggest that it is unsupported, and the semantics of what it does may be a variation, or have exceptions, to what I am describing. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. At some point I may exhaustively test it to be sure it all works right, if I find something odd, I'll post it. If we are lucky, 3.3 Dev may have it in the docs... My thanks to an anonymous person who suggested that the user must allocate the region of memory to map into. IT WORKED! :-) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:55:34 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11138 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3715 comp.sys.next.programmer:22055 From article <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, by nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban): > In article , ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) wrote: > >> In article <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com>, Bill Vareka wrote: > >> There are no two sides to operator overloading. If you want to be able >> to write expressions that look anything like mathematics, using complex >> numbers, Galois fields, vectors, matrices, etc. you need operator >> overloading, > > Writing expressions that look like mathematics in arbitrary mathematical > structures is hardly a requirement for a general-purpose programming > language; the convenience of operator overloading is not necessarily > worth its drawbacks for most programmers. Indeed. I often prefer writing :-) (sqrt (plus (sqr (minus x y)) (sqr (minus x y)))) > >> which BTW means having function overloading because operators >> by definition are functions. > > No. Operator overloading is NOT a subset of function overloading. > Operators on objects are methods, which are not functions, at least in > Objective-C. (Note that "function overloading" refers to C functions, > not mathematical ones.) Overloading applies to anything you can name. In C++, you can overload functions, member functions (methods), and operators. You also have your choice of _implementing_ most operators as either a function or a method. The typical dichotomy is that a binary, non-assignment operator is implemented as a function, all others as methods. They are some very good reasons for doing it this way (see the FAQ). Because you can't define an operator in Objective-C, it need not be a function or a method. -mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 24 Jan 1997 17:11:04 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b3vkl$ebp@news.xmission.com> <5bbe59$8fh@crl.crl.com> <32DEDEC1.490C@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm0a2.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22056 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54868 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182331 comp.sys.mac.system:194257 In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: > If you could make Unix functionality a part of the new OS without *forcing* > users to deal with these things, so they wouldn't need to see or use them > unless they really *wanted* to, then I wouldn't mind. But what I saw of > NeXTstep a few years ago didn't work that way, and the comments I've seen > here suggest that it hasn't changed in this respect. I certainly haven't gotten that impression, and I've been in the thick of these arguments since I started. Not only that, one of the few things we _do_ know is that Apple has every intention of insulating home users from the sparks and machinery, and has said so quite clearly. Apple already insulates users from TextEdit calls and drawing rects with Quickdraw for putting up windows. Apple insulates users from window management and handles determination of the foreground windows in an intuitive way. Why should they not be able to deal with this newer, easier task? Apple does _not_ insulate users from some memory management, as we know from the Get Info dialog box and manual setting of app memory spaces. Now this can change. ;) > Let me turn the question around: Should Joe Average User have to wade > through Unix arcanum just to use the computer, when he doesn't know or care > what 1/4 of the things mean, let alone how to use them -- just so that the > small percentage of Unix gurus can easily run install scripts? No. Instead Joe Average gets to totally ignore the Unix arcanum just as he gets to ignore FSpOpenResFile, InitApplZone, LAPRmvATQ, PBMakeFSSpec, XorRgn (do you know how hard it is to find toolbox routines with cryptic names? Wow. Mostly it's CloseWindow, DisposePalette, DrawString, GetFontInfo, GetSpecificHighLevelEvent, GetProcessSerialNumberFromPortName... really! These are from 'Routines that should not be called from within an interrupt', Inside Mac original edition) But just as Mac programmers get to use GoToPublisherSection and GetFontName and GetLastEditionContainerUsed and FSpRstFLock, Unix sysadmins get to use the Unix routines. Don't even _think_ of them as Stuffit Expander, think of them as Toolbox routines, okay? They are going to be there if Rhapsody is going to work. There isn't time to invent everything over again, basically. And is anyone demanding that FSpRstFLock be removed because it is cryptic? > ...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe. On the bright side, this is one of my favorite sigs I've ever seen :) Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!news.new-york.net!news.interactive.net!onyx.interactive.net!not-for-mail From: Matthew Hocker Subject: window class method question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 961018] X-Nntp-Posting-User: hocker Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Organization: IBS Interactive, Inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Trace: 854121451/24262 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: onyx.interactive.net Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:57:32 GMT Quick, hopefully simple question. Under NS3.3, 3.2 dev, I am trying to keep a window initially hidden then open it programmatically. I have the window connected to an instance of my controller class so that it is recognized (supposedly) in the code as slipWindow (type id). I then try and open the window by using: [slipWindow display]; which causes a memory fault. I've tried slipWindow=[Window alloc]; then [slipWindow init]; then [slipWindow display]; but I still get the same error (in gdb). What am I doing wrong? Theoretically, the window should already be allocated, since I drew it in IB, but maybe I need to allocate it somehow? Any help is welcome! Thanks Matt -- __ Matthew Hocker, B.Eng (McGill) | Voice your concern about /\_\ "Believer in all things well-engineered" | Internet censorship! Write \/_/ hocker@onyx.interactive.net | to Senator-Gorton@ NeXTSTEP! NeXTmail and MIME welcomed here! | gorton.senate.gov ! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!not-for-mail From: kent@voicenet.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 24 Jan 97 20:02:07 -0500 Organization: Voicenet - Internet Access - (215)674-9290 Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5cavsl$8lg@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cherryhill203.voicenet.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a2 X-News-Servers: netnews.voicenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://netnews.voicenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://netnews.voicenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://netnews.voicenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://netnews.voicenet.com/comp.sys.mac.system Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22058 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54870 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182336 comp.sys.mac.system:194263 >: Since marketshare is a measurement of sales at a given time - and the >: computer market is growing - then Macs units are growing as well - >: just at the same rate as the rest of the industry (no faster or >: slower). I beleive sales of Macs (and compatibles) was at 5.1 million >: last year (96) as opposed to 4.5 million for '95. That is not exactly >: losing ground. Apple has given a little ground to its compatibles - >: but Macs are selling more units than ever. > >: Funny.... 5.1 million machines last year.... that seems like pretty >: good sales volume to me. > >Apple itself shipped About 4 Million Units in Fiscal 1996. Could you >tell me where you saw the 5.1 Million units number? > Duder look at what the guy above you wrote. He said 5.1 million Mac/clones in 1996. That is quite possible since you yerself just said Apple alone sold 4 million of em. Mellow out duder and READ THE POST !!!!!!!!! I think 1.1 million between Motorola, ah Power Computing, Umax, and them Genesis dudes, APS is quite possible. You mean between 5 clone makers they only sold 1.1 million ?? That actually sounds lame. I thought it would be more 8( Oh weeeeeeell theres always 1997 8) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:37:52 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 74 Message-ID: <5caoh0$dpu@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5c93h6$3ur@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11139 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3717 comp.sys.next.programmer:22059 From article <5c93h6$3ur@darla.visi.com>, by dwy@ace.net (David Young): > Matthew Clay (clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu) wrote: > : That's correct. As Objective-C and Java mature and become mainstream, > : however they will face the same compelling arguments for new features as > : C++ did/does. The choices seem limited to following the same feature-rich > : path as C++ and being criticized as monstrosities, or striving for the > : minimality of C and being criticized as primitive. > > As far as function overloading goes, what's the point with a runtime > typing system? The same as in more static world -- freedom from all having to deal with all details at every step. For example, in the Prolog world, we might overload a predicate add/2 as add(int(N), int(M)) :- integer_add(N, M). % low-level integer add add(float(N), float(M)) :- float_add(N, M). % " floating add So that a programmer who only wanted to write a doubling routine, but did not care what kind of numbers are being doubled, could write double(N) :- add(N, N). Overloading is orthogonal to compile-time/run-time typing, though overload resolution is not. Overloading is just using the same name for the same logical concept, where the concept may have different implementations, and this is not much different than overriding methods in a subclass. > There's also the issue of method syntax (and some tradition) making it > irrelevant. Consider: > > - drawImage:anImage withFloatingPointScaleFactor:(float)f; > - drawImage:anImage withScalingObject:o; > vs. > drawImage (f); > drawImage (o); > > I tend to prefer the former, as it leads to more self-documenting > code, and less of that "hmm, what paramters does this take?" kind > of thing. I think it depends greatly on your viewpoint. An important aspect of an any high-level language is abstraction, and OO languages tend to support it greatly. For example, the above could be re-written as class Image { void ScaleBy(float simpleFactor); // optimized version void ScaleBy(ScalingObject complexFactor); // general version ... }; Image anImage; ... anImage.ScaleBy(x); // what is x? I think it's pretty clear that we want to scale the image, and that 'x' is directly involved. Just as in method overriding, we often don't care how things get done, for example, the direct role of 'x'. No, we assume that the author and the compiler do the right things for each case. If we want to know the details, for example to verify correctness, we have to look harder. Perhaps we have to look at the declaration of 'x', or look at the definition of ScaleBy(), or even trace through the call itself. But again, just as in a method override, this is the "price" we pay for abstraction. Is this too much? I don't think so -- we specifically wanted details! -mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.york.ac.uk!rog From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 24 Jan 1997 15:27:36 GMT Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5cakd8$829@netty.york.ac.uk> References: Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.4) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22060 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54879 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182342 On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:52:26 -0500, Maury Markowitz wrote: > > By "this" do you mean OOP wrappers around CLI programs? > > No, _replacing_ the code with OOP shared libs. don't be silly. the whole point of object orientation is to obtain better modularity within the system. the unix shell and its associated programs have better modularity than objective C or C++ will ever have. have you ever seen an OO library that allows objects to be interconnected as freely as the unix shell allows ? why reinvent the wheel (badly) ? rog. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!noris.net!shinto!news From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) Subject: Real-time video effects Was: DPS Hit Detection Message-ID: Sender: news@shinto.nbg.sub.org X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next/Images/People/tomi.shinto.nbg.sub.org.tiff Organization: STEPeople's home (A NUGI member) X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <5biv18$h7p@castor.cca.rockwell.com> <5bjlj4$sab@news.xmission.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:57:16 GMT Lines: 29 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22061 comp.sys.mac.misc:133044 comp.sys.mac.system:194280 rex@mit.edu (Eric King) wrote: > It certainly sounds intriguing :) Me, I'm looking forward to MovieClips > Pro, the non-pro version right now gives you a very tantalizing taste of > what kinds of real-time video effects are possible with GX's graphics > engine. Has anyone tried making something that can transform and blend > NextTime movies together in real-time? (That is on a Pentium or Pentium > Pro, not on an ND board.) While real-time is a problematic phrase (how fast is your real-time ? 30fps, 20fps ?...how big are your movies..full NTSC/PAL resolution at 24 bit ? ) this issues has little to do with a NeXTdimension board. The dimension would currently be the slowest NeXTIME platform around. But then...NeXTIME does basically not care about DPS. NeXTIME bypasses the DPS and directly writes to the framebuffer. If your effects can perform on bitmap data...combine the two samples of your two source movies (each frame is probvided as an NTSampleBuffer object) and deliver the transformed endresult to the imaging pipeline. Now if you are talking about translating a NTSampleBuffer into a native AppKit NSImage...then manipulating it (with DPS) add alpha channels and then putting things back together. Well, thats another issue and I would not comment on that until I have tested it. Still it has nothing to do with the way NeXTIME works...its how complex your manipulations are. Aloha Tomi #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!irz401!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 24 Jan 1997 19:21:22 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 47 Message-ID: <5cb23i$ofj@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <199701211742586676963@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54893 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182374 comp.sys.mac.system:194297 comp.sys.next.programmer:22062 andy@amtmtc.demon.co.uk (Andy Templeman) wrote: > Charles W Swiger wrote: > > Because you need the shell and the utils in order for the operating > > system to boot in a flexible way that can be maintained by a system > > administrator. > > Macs have traditionally been touted as systems where you don't need a > system administrator. A lot of home users are not C.S. savvy and want > the new system to be as simple to install and administer as system 7 is, > with the advantages that a protected & pre-emptive system can give. You don't have to be a sysadmin to run a NeXT box, either. In fact, I've known several folks who use a NeXT at home and probably know less about CS than the average Mac user. However, if you want to hook a bunch of NeXT boxes together, the sysadmin facilities are in place and work well. Seems this is the best of both worlds, since you can sell to home users or to corporations, and either type will find the system quite usable. So why rip out something that could potentially increase the markets you can successfully sell into if it doesn't damage the current markets you are targeting? By the way, IMHO, Apple still needs to make a few improvements in the GUI to hide UNIX a little better--but there isn't really that much more to do. When I bought my NeXT in 1991, one phrase that was common is "if you have to use the command line, it is a bug." In other words, they were trying to make the system such that you would never need the CLI--but they'd leave it in there for those who want and/or like it, such as sysadmins. Frankly, all I ever use the CLI for is sysadmin tasks; everything else is handled quite nicely by the GUI and I prefer that interface for most things. Most of the things Mac users fear about NeXT's UNIX underpinnings are really quite groundless--but until they've actually _used_ a system, it is impossible to "prove" it. So, if you don't know NeXT, find someone who will show you just how nice it is. I think that most Mac users are in for a pleasant surprise. It really is not as scary as you think and some things are positively amazing... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.ti.com!news.dseg.ti.com!news From: pkoren@ti.com (Peter A. Koren) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: 24 Jan 1997 19:25:53 GMT Organization: Texas Instruments Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5cb2c1$382@sf18.dseg.ti.com> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5c7juq$7n5@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5c93k6$l5c@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: s1273213.dseg.ti.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.7 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54895 comp.sys.next.programmer:22063 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182375 comp.sys.mac.system:194298 In article <5c93k6$l5c@news3.digex.net>, jkheit@cnj.digex.net says... > >snip > >Yes, but ms dos, unix, and other system users are much bigger than >apple's market of say around 5million users with hardware capable >of running the upcoming OS. Furthermore, and arguably, apple has >been loosing customers to those other platforms. Apple has to do >what is BEST, not what is most wanted by current mac users. Apple >has to do what is is BEST to be compelling enough for users of >other systems to switch over or come back to apple. A superior UI >to both the current mac, and next UI wouldn't hurt. > I jumped ship from the Mac when I went back to school full time to get another degree (CS). I had to get a PC to do the course work, but then I discovered NeXTStep on Intel and I finally had what I really wanted; an easy to use and powerful system. It beat both the Mac and Windows. But I couldn't stay with NeXTStep after graduating because of the money. I also needed the Unix apps and X stuff, so I went to Linux. The Apple-Next merger is for me a Godsend. My NeXT machine (bad pun) will be a Rhapsody running Mac or Mac clone. This deal brings me back to Apple. Pete Koren #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: mmap/munmap under mach Date: 24 Jan 97 09:40:16 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <32E98C21.2568@friday.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-8.access.one.net In-reply-to: Bill Bumgarner's message of Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:29:21 -0500 In article <32E98C21.2568@friday.com>, Bill Bumgarner writes: BTW: It appears that mmap exists within the OS-- even madvise is present. But compilation reveals that the munmap() function is undefined. As I do not have the implementation details of mmap(), I cannot undo whatever it does (maybe just a vm_dealloc() would work? Likely...?). Question: Have you tried copying the prototype from an older system, and compiling away? In the past NeXT has removed prototypes from the header files, but the implementations are often still in the libraries. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: 24 Jan 1997 12:08:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5c9cm6$otb$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.129 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Perhaps a better question: >Will a game framework become part of the OpenStep spec? > >After GNUstep matures games would be very portable! > >Having a well thought out standard API for sound, input, >speech, 3D, quicktime, buffering, etc would be great. Games Sprockets is supposed to encourage developers to develope for Macintosh-FIRST by providing a cross-platform solution that works with both MacOS and WIndows. Having a cross-platform solution that works with a free OS doesn't seem like a viable rationale for porting Games Sprockets to OpenStep/GnuStep. Also, one would need QuickDraw 3D and RAVE to make it work well, and I guarantee that Apple won't be porting those to GnuStep. --------------------------------------------------- What's so cool about Cyberdog? Parts is parts, right? --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:46:39 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 38 Message-ID: <32E957EF.65C0@exnext.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <199701240608351834902@amtmtc.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: jon@exnext.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22066 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54896 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182376 comp.sys.mac.system:194301 Andy Templeman wrote: > > Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > [snip - why should apple support 1% of users who want unix] > > > > Actually, Apple should let all those people who want Unix hang. Who > > cares if they buy Solaris, or Windows NT, or run linux on a cheap > > Pentium? Who needs em. > > > > [...] > > > > If Apple can grab back the graphics professionals who are using > > NT, they could probably add another .5%. If Apple can grab > > webserver marketshare from WinNT, that might account for another > > .5%. (This would likely be easier if Apple shipped Rhapsody > > on Intel). That'd increase Mac marketshare by another 1%. > > Apple already sell Unix boxes for people who want to run Unix servers. > You can buy today a Network server 700 which runs AIX. How will Apple be > exposing themselves to a new market by offering a second unix operating > system? What about people who want Unix, but not a server? There are lots of people running Unix as a workstation OS. They'd love to have lots of polished productivity apps. Right now, if they want them, they've got to go to NT. There's a huge difference between offering Yet Another Unix (AIX, or A/UX) and offering a robust, user-friendly Unix which runs lots of useful, polished applications. -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!leicester!usenet From: Michael Hudson Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 17:48:25 +0000 Organization: University of Leicester, UK Lines: 24 Message-ID: <32E8F5E9.2620@nowhere.com> References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: none NNTP-Posting-Host: mac26.geol.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11141 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3721 comp.sys.next.programmer:22067 Nathan M. Urban wrote: > id obj1 = [anArray objectAtIndex:i]; > id obj2 = [anArray objectAtIndex:j]; > > if([obj1 compare:obj2] == NSOrderedDescending) { // swap elements > [obj1 retain]; // keep the array from freeing obj1 when it is replaced at 'i' > // don't have to worry about obj2, it gets retained by the first replace > // and released by the second > [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:i withObject:obj2]; > [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:j withObject:obj1]; > [obj1 release]; // decrement the reference count > } I can think of another reason why C++ took off, rather than Objective-C: That looks nothing like C. C++ code (unless it's very templatey) looks much like C. I have never coded in pure C, but I'd say that the fact that C++ can look like C must have made the transition less scary for many people. -- Regards, Michael Hudson Please don't email this address - it's not mine. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!ftl.msen.com!stewart-3.pnet.msen.com!user From: glen_stewart@associate.com (Glen Stewart) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: BASIC on NeXT? Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 23:19:59 -0500 Organization: The Association at http://associate.com Lines: 25 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: stewart-3.pnet.msen.com Kinda in preparation of Mac-NeXT, I'm planning to install the Mac 68k port of NetBSD or OpenBSD on my IIci to begin getting some UNIX administration experience. I've spoken with about 6 people currently running NetBSD 1.2 on their IIci's, and they claim great stability - though it's a bit slow (-; Anyway, I'd love to be able to do BASIC programming in UNIX. Does anyone here know if there is such a compiler available? GCC seems to be just about everywhere (even on the Mac68k port), but BASIC is what I really prefer. Thanks for your reply if you know of such a tool. Glen -- The Scottish Stewart Clan Home - Genealogy Database, Symbols, Tartans, Septs http://associate.com/stewart.html The Association BBS - Gigs of *fully described* Macintosh files from '94-'97 http://associate.com/bbs_mug.html CyberChurch - A Massive Gathering of the Saints via dozens of Mailing Lists! http://associate.com/CyberChurch_news/ ListServ@associate.com - Mailing Lists like: Associated_MUG, DragonRaid, FutureBASIC, Soon, ChristianUnity, Christian_Music, MissionNet, and AOG #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!140.162.1.25!seismo!sed.psrw.com!news.apk.net!jchan From: jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Concerning Function Overloading in Obj-C.(Re: Multiple Inheritance) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:55:27 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Lines: 5 Message-ID: References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-16.apk.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11142 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3723 comp.sys.next.programmer:22069 Can't we just pass the parameter as an id object and then do a switch based on the object type? --- The Evil Tofu (Only Human) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.aloha.net!news-w.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!lantana.singnet.com.sg!violet.singnet.com.sg!ntuix.ntu.ac.sg!alpha.ntu.ac.sg!GWILLEM From: GWILLEM@alpha.ntu.ac.sg (Van Schaik Willem Anthon Johan ) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 25 Jan 1997 04:47:59 GMT Organization: Nanyang Technological University Lines: 7 Message-ID: <5cc39v$51e@ntuix.ntu.ac.sg> References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5c7juq$7n5@news.tuwien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.ntu.ac.sg X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2v [VAX/VMS]] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54914 comp.sys.next.programmer:22070 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182432 comp.sys.mac.system:194336 Robert F Tobler (rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at) wrote: : what we Next users think if they can retain their Marketshare (and Next users Isn't that . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . MarKETshare :-) Willem #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!data.ramona.vix.com!news1.digital.com!pa.dec.com!decuac.dec.com!haven.umd.edu!dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu!vdal5.eng.umd.edu!no_spam From: no_spam@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 25 Jan 1997 05:18:27 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5cc533$drv@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vdal5.eng.umd.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22071 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54915 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182433 comp.sys.mac.system:194339 kent@voicenet.com wrote: : >: Since marketshare is a measurement of sales at a given time - and the : >: computer market is growing - then Macs units are growing as well - : >: just at the same rate as the rest of the industry (no faster or : >: slower). I beleive sales of Macs (and compatibles) was at 5.1 million : >: last year (96) as opposed to 4.5 million for '95. That is not exactly : >: losing ground. Apple has given a little ground to its compatibles - : >: but Macs are selling more units than ever. : > : >: Funny.... 5.1 million machines last year.... that seems like pretty : >: good sales volume to me. : > : >Apple itself shipped About 4 Million Units in Fiscal 1996. Could you : >tell me where you saw the 5.1 Million units number? : > : Duder look at what the guy above you wrote. He said 5.1 million Mac/clones : in 1996. That is quite possible since you yerself just said Apple alone : sold 4 million of em. Mellow out duder and READ THE POST !!!!!!!!! I think : 1.1 million between Motorola, ah Power Computing, Umax, and them Genesis : dudes, APS is quite possible. You mean between 5 clone makers they only : sold 1.1 million ?? That actually sounds lame. I thought it would be more : 8( Oh weeeeeeell theres always 1997 8) Clone sales were estimated at between 350,000 to 500,000 units. Power Computing is rumored to have sold a bulk of that number. Motorola only started shipping machines in late 1996, Daystar sold about 5000 boxes (mostly high end multi-cpu configs) APS and Umax? haven't heard much about them at all. Do you have any idea where a 5.1 Million number could be reached? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 25 Jan 1997 01:52:09 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5ccaip$nm3@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11143 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3726 comp.sys.next.programmer:22072 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > In article <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, > nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) writes: > Internally, it's doing something like: > [a bunch of messaging] > Aighh! I would expect that NSArray is implemented internally as a > pointer to a block of memory, and that they could just use qsort() > with wrappers around -compare:. Well, yes. I didn't mean that "internally" too literally.. I just wanted to show an example of how you'd manipulate arrays using message passing. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Concerning Function Overloading in Obj-C.(Re: Multiple Inheritance) Date: 25 Jan 1997 01:52:58 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 9 Message-ID: <5ccaka$n27@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11144 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3727 comp.sys.next.programmer:22073 In article , jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) wrote: > Can't we just pass the parameter as an id object and then do a switch based > on the object type? No, the object type isn't an ordinal. You can't switch on it, just like you can't switch on strings. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: john_zollinger@arkona.com (John Zollinger) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: So what do I need to catch the Apple/Next wave?? Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:04:25 GMT Organization: Arkona, LLC Lines: 50 Message-ID: <32e9bad9.14819349@news.xmission.com> References: <5brihp$1hti@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> Reply-To: john_zollinger@arkona.com NNTP-Posting-Host: slc178.modem.xmission.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:24828 comp.sys.next.programmer:22074 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54934 warnerr@beethoven.cs.colostate.edu ( richard warner) wrote: > I have the NEXTSTEP 3.3 Developer system. A proud owner of a >Color NEXTSTATION - until just recently prepping to buy high-end >laptop (six solid years from the NEXT, not bad). Had pretty well given >up on NEXT *gasp* until the big news. WOOHOO!! LIFE. Way to go Stevey. > So now I'm wondering, can I load NS on the laptop and then load >Win/95 under it to access my office productivity stuff - or should I get >the SoftPC emulator? What do I need to do/can I get both NS and Win/95 >on the same box, preferably Win/95 running in a window under NS. Well, softpc runs only Win3.1 stuff last I heard. The best way to do it is to have two partitions on your hard drive. One for OPENSTEP for Mach, one for Win95 or NT. When you boot you can choose to go into either. Under NEXTSTEP you will be able to access the FILES on your Win95 partition, but you won't be able to access your NEXTSTEP stuff under Win95. I have Win95, NT, and OPENSTEP for Mach on my machine. > Another line of questions has to do with development. NEXTSTEP >native vs OPENSTEP. Is there an OPENSTEP developer product for Intel boxes >and do I want it instead of NS native? Is it the product that has a >future?? Yes. You can get either OPENSTEP for Mach (much like what you have on your black box). Or you can get OPENSTEP for Windows NT. Which is basically the OPENSTEP development tools, but in the NT OS. The good part about the OPENSTEP NT is that you can still get at your MS Office apps since they run fine in NT, the downside is that you don't have the nice mach OS, and you can't do any nifty unix things, you don't have all the great NeXT apps like mail, librarian, and, well, it's NT. If you are used to NEXTSTEP, moving to NT is quite annoying. > Another line of questioning - is NS 3.3 Developer the latest/greatest >still for Intel boxes (if OPENSTEP is the way to go - which version?). The latest is 4.1, and I think 4.2 is coming out shortly? > Lastly, a RFO (Request For Opinions) as to which is better as of today: >Buy a new Intel box and put NS/OPENSTEP on it - or wait to purchase until >some hot Apple/NEXT combo hits the market. Of particular interest to >me is in the realm of laptops, but also interested in opinions generally. Good question. I have no idea. I'm holding off on getting an Apple box until I see what horror's they do to the NeXT UI. If Apple keeps their current UI, I'll stick with OPENSTEP for Mach on Intel. :-) If they see-the-light and keep the majority of the current UI, then I will consider getting one. Ciao, #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.dfn.de!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!lehi.kuentos.guam.net!news From: crobato@kuentos.guam.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 25 Jan 1997 09:33:50 GMT Organization: Kuentos Communications Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <5cck1u$g07@lehi.kuentos.guam.net> References: <5cc533$drv@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu> Reply-To: crobato@kuentos.guam.net NNTP-Posting-Host: hagi-75.kuentos.guam.net X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22075 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54943 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182507 comp.sys.mac.system:194405 In <5cc533$drv@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu>, no_spam@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) writes: >kent@voicenet.com wrote: >: >: Since marketshare is a measurement of sales at a given time - and the >: >: computer market is growing - then Macs units are growing as well - >: >: just at the same rate as the rest of the industry (no faster or >: >: slower). I beleive sales of Macs (and compatibles) was at 5.1 million >: >: last year (96) as opposed to 4.5 million for '95. That is not exactly >: >: losing ground. Apple has given a little ground to its compatibles - >: >: but Macs are selling more units than ever. >: > >: >: Funny.... 5.1 million machines last year.... that seems like pretty >: >: good sales volume to me. >: > >: >Apple itself shipped About 4 Million Units in Fiscal 1996. Could you >: >tell me where you saw the 5.1 Million units number? >: > > >: Duder look at what the guy above you wrote. He said 5.1 million Mac/clones >: in 1996. That is quite possible since you yerself just said Apple alone >: sold 4 million of em. Mellow out duder and READ THE POST !!!!!!!!! I think >: 1.1 million between Motorola, ah Power Computing, Umax, and them Genesis >: dudes, APS is quite possible. You mean between 5 clone makers they only >: sold 1.1 million ?? That actually sounds lame. I thought it would be more >: 8( Oh weeeeeeell theres always 1997 8) > >Clone sales were estimated at between 350,000 to 500,000 units. Power >Computing is rumored to have sold a bulk of that number. Motorola >only started shipping machines in late 1996, Daystar sold about 5000 >boxes (mostly high end multi-cpu configs) APS and Umax? haven't heard >much about them at all. Do you have any idea where a 5.1 Million number >could be reached? > > Umax did 100,000 for the year. Half a year actually since they started shipping six months ago. Motorola did 40-50,000. In eight weeks. Rgds, Chris ************************************** *"Defend your OS choice, or you will lose it."* *---Steve Kahng, CEO, Power Computing. * *>> crobato@kuentos.guam.net << * ************************************** #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:47:52 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <32E644B8.29CAF0F5@screaming.org> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:54952 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182522 comp.sys.mac.system:194418 comp.sys.next.programmer:22076 William Raphael Hix wrote: > mmalcolm crawford (m.crawford@shef.ac.uk) wrote: > : On 01/21/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > : > : > So which market do they go after? The PC market doesn't want > : > Unix any more than the Mac market does. > : > > : Umm, this jars a little with the success of Linux... > > Linux is one of those things which USENET gives a better impression of > than reality. Don't get me wrong, I like free Unix for common hardware > and the grassroots communal development gestalt. It's just that Linux > has much more USENET mindshare than real world "marketshare". Here's a better way to phrase that idea: Linux users are more effectively internetworked. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!jussieu.fr!iway.fr!news1.isdnet.net!tupelo!news From: Michel Coste Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:16:24 GMT Organization: MiCMAC Lines: 92 Sender: news@micmac.com Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c9g1e$ng5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: mic@micmac.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp60.mon.hol.fr X-Nntp-Posting-Host: tupelo Cc: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22077 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54964 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182561 comp.sys.mac.system:194445 This was written in comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system (<5c9g1e$ng5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>) by Nathan M. Urban: > In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: > > > >There are no drive icons. Unix drives look like folders; they're > > >mounted directly into the filesystem wherever you want (and have > > >permission to put them). > > > Hmmm. I can see both advantages and disadvantages. If you're running on a > > fairly static system, with little or no changes to the mounted disks, this > > can be a big advantage, since you don't have to worry about what file goes > > where; OTOH, dealing with removable media (or drives that are regularly > > switched between systems) would be a real nightmare. > > How so?? I deal with removable media all the time. I don't see any > problems with it. > Well... He doesn't know ho NeXTSTEP deals with the problem! In the Workspace, when inserting a removable media, the user has these choices: - Place the icon on shelf - Open a new File Viewer - Select the Disk - Do nothing (what he thinks!) I personally make the second choice. But for people only doing backups to optical the fourth choice makes sense... So the NeXT way is always a big advantage! > > >There are some generic icons for removable media like floppy disks and > > >CD-ROMs that the File Viewer uses instead of a folder icon when you > > >insert one; those are probably stored in the Workspace's app wrapper. > > > Hmmm. Does that mean items on removable media are *not* inserted into the > > regular directory tree when you insert a cartridge? > > No, they _are_ inserted into the regular directory tree. What makes you > think otherwise? Well I think it's difficult to imagine how NeXT work if you've never touched a system, never seen a screen shot, never read something serious about it! From now on there are two sort of people. The ones who wait and try to learn these things before making noise on the Net (this is not intended for you Travis: obviously you _want_ to learn!) and the ones who made their idea without ever going to the clue market... (probably because they were born with ideas on everything). > > > >In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury > > >Markowitz) wrote: > > Yes. There is utterly no advantage to ripping out the CLI stuff. > What's this "clutters the system" stuff, anyway? You don't even have > to know it exists. I can't see any reason to rip out enormous amounts > of functionality to have a "less cluttered" system. Besides, Unix > requires many of these utilities to work! I guess he don't want to understand that. Out of reach! > Apple is going to provide GUI shells for more of the NEXTSTEP CLI > commands (you can already do anything from the NEXTSTEP GUI you want > w/o resorting to a CLI, except for some sysadmin commands, which is > what Apple is targeting), so you'd better learn to live with it. Well said Nathan! It should be the moral of the story... mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 23 Jan 1997 04:47:58 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 127 Message-ID: <5c6qhu$r1v@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22078 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182564 comp.sys.mac.system:194452 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54965 Charles William Swiger (cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 22-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld : Exclusive: App.. by William Raphael Hix@port : > Tar is of great use to Unix users. I use tar on my Unix box to aggregate : > files which I then compress and download to my Mac where Stuffit : > uncompresses and untars them. But most Mac users never encounter tar : > files since Mac software distribution is done by Stuffit/BinHex. : > But you expect Rhapsody software distribution to work like NeXTStep? : : I hope that Rhapsody uses NeXT's packages and Installer.app, yes. : Normal NEXTSTEP users never invoke tar themselves-- they use GUI tools : like Installer.app and Opener.app which use tar internally. : : If you look back a few weeks, I described exactly how easy Installer.app : and Opener.app are to use, and the fact that you get functionality like : receipts (for uninstalling software and for showing what software has : been installed on a system), multilanguage support, and FAT binary : support. This is the way any good installer works, it need only use tar if the software is coming from a Unix base. This is natural for NeXT with little shrinkwrapped software and hence heavy dependence on Unix's legacy. We'll have to see how true this remains with Rhapsody's mix of NeXT and Mac veterans. : : > Ports of apps from Unix to Rhapsody? : : Sure hope so. Doesn't any Mac user see some advantages to being able to : run your own personal web server on your own machine, or to be able to : send and receive electronic mail quickly and efficiently? Umm, there are Mac web servers you know. In fact more WWW severs run on Macs than on NeXT. It is no longer true that internetable means Unix. [snipped out tar's usefulness to NeXT users] : > But it doesn't do anything for a Mac user since Mac software in not in : > tar format. Perhaps for Rhapsody this will change, but I think that : > you are assuming things which aren't decide yet. : : In that sense, this is what everyone on these newsgroups are doing! No : doubt Apple and NeXT have a lot of decisions to make which have not been : made yet. : : Possibly, although it's _far_ less likely-- some of the debate that goes : on here in Usenet will have some influence on the decisions they make. : It would be to our collective advantage in the long term if we can make : discussions about Rhapsody as useful as we can, since it might make : Rhapsody a better operating system. : Mostly we're trying to assuage our anxiety about our prefered platform. I wrote to this thread hoping to see where the compromise of Mac and NeXT users would lead. I just don't see Apple shipping for $100 the same OS which NeXT sold for $800. Perhaps the ecomomy of scale will pay off this well. I'd love to have complete BSD 4.3 available on the same machine which runs Quicken at home. : Prosletizing the "one true Mac way" to the point where someone at Apple : gets disgusted enough to publicly disagree with your slander of DPS, or : arguing that we have to rip Unix out of Rhapsody in order to save three : dollars in disk space but screw up almost every aspect of NeXT's : technologies, are, in my opinion, some of the most pointless and idiotic : arguments I've ever seen on Usenet. Was it me specifically who slandered DPS? or am I a generic Mac user to lay your frustration on. Again, as a long time Unix user (Hell, I'm a FORTRAN programer on a bad day), I'm not advocating removing Unix from Rhapsody. I am however trying to figure out what Apple will do to NeXTStep to ease its acceptance with current Mac users. From the flip side, many NeXT users who have contributed to this thread see life under Rhapsody as no different from their current NeXTStep experience. With a short term projected audience of millions of Mac users, followed by current OpenStep users when Rhapsody makes it to their platform, I don't see this as a reasonable expectation. : _Why_ be so brain-damaged? I take that back, we all participate in USENET in order to insulted. I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, I find your's malformed as well. : >: If they pressure Apple to drop basic functionality like this, then : >: Apple should tell them to take a leap. : > : > What a NeXT user sees as basic functionality might seem like wasted disk : > space to a Mac user. Dropping them also reduces Apple's support load, : > perhaps lowering the cost. [ ... ] : : Hold on a second. At the end of this article I'm responding to, you said: : : > Mac users are largely happy with what they have, if only it'd run stably, : > in protected memory with pre-emptive multitasking. : : The combination of the Mach kernel and Unix utilities provides the : functionality that you say Mac users would want. : : You can't rip the Unix layer out from between Mach and NeXT's software : tools without seriously impacting that functionality, because Apple : would have to write an as-yet-imaginary middle layer to replace that : functionality. : : Do you think something like that is simply appear out of thin air? : Nope-- it would take lots of time and development effort to get 1.0 : version done, and would take even more time and effort to get stable and : reliable. : I don't want to remove BSD from Rhapsody, I'm wondering if Apple will minimize the size of the base installation and make the add-ons cost additional. If the Openstep API calls every single BSD command directly, then division is not possible if one is to maintain OpenStep compatibility. My impression from conversations with NeXTStep users is that there are parts of BSD not needed for OpenStep compatability. For example, the pieces of BSD which are part of OpenStep developer are optional for the OpenStep API. NeXT itself makes this distinction, Apple can do so as well. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: 23 Jan 1997 04:53:39 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 57 Message-ID: <5c6qsj$2lv@news.digifix.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22079 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54967 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182568 comp.sys.mac.system:194455 On 01/22/97, Bill Bumgarner wrote: >Actually, tar really, really sucks as an archive tool... > >tar was designed for use as an archival tool for writing hierarchies of >files to a linear piece of media. As such, it lacks certain >conveniences such as 'random access', 'well organized directory >information', or any of the other conveniences of, say, Stuffit. > >Don't get me wrong-- tar provides a certain set of functinality that is >both convenient and highly functional... but to say it is superior to >Stuffit is ridiculous. > I certainly didn't say that it was superior, or that Stuffit was bad. A universally available format with the features of Stuffit (random access wise) and the free/clear compression algorithms of gzip would be a huge winner provided that the archive format and algorithms were made public so that it could become an 'all platform' solution. >If anything, Aladdin should release a version of Stuffit that can be >used from the command line... I'd certainly pay for a tool that give me >random access to my archives, a full-featured GUI w/drag-n-drop, and a >comparably featured command line utility. > As would I. Infact, I have, I've probably bought two or three tar/compress front ends on NEXTSTEP.. :-) >[Hey, Raymond, remember me? Probably not... I'm the person that fought >so, so hard for Stuffit to become an accepted file type on Connect and >CompuServe way back in the .7, .8 days... back when that stupid Huffman >tool ruled the mac world.] > >The only real advantage the various Unix tools have over the various >tools on other platforms is that they +work+ within an environment that >can be scripted (note that easily is nowhere to be found). But-- the >user interface is crap and it is quite easy for the user to mean one >thing and end up fatally wounding themselves (instead of just piercing >their foot). Its the cross-platform availability of tar that I thing is superior, not the format itself. > >Combine the UI experience of the comparable tools under Mac w/the >awesome functionality of the various unix tools and you have one hell of >a powerful system that one may actually have a hope of using without >hurting oneself. > -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!nol.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 23 Jan 1997 05:13:17 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 269 Message-ID: <5c6s1d$2oh@news.digifix.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22080 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54968 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182571 comp.sys.mac.system:194460 On 01/21/97, William Raphael Hix wrote: >Scott Anguish (sanguish@digifix.com) wrote: >: On 01/20/97, William Raphael Hix wrote: >: >Garance A Drosehn (gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu) wrote: >: >: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: >: > >: >Then you are essentially arguing that tar is of little use? >: >: Sounds to me that what he's saying is that its too clumsy for most >: casual users to learn, and that there is a market for a front end to it. >: >: Tar is of a great use to many people out there, isn't that obvious >: since almost everyone is adding its functionality and there are free >: versions of it available? >: > >Tar is of great use to Unix users. I use tar on my Unix box to aggregate >files which I then compress and download to my Mac where Stuffit >uncompresses and untars them. But most Mac users never encounter tar >files since Mac software distribution is done by Stuffit/BinHex. Yeah, I know, this is one of my major complaints. Stuffit is a closed system in this respect. >But you expect Rhapsody software distribution to work like NeXTStep? >Ports of apps from Unix to Rhapsody? This is another of those places >there the NeXT and Mac community are talking about apples and oranges >(I apologize for the pun). > Not sure what you mean by this.. >: >If this is then why bother including it on everyone's disk? >: >: Why? Well, lets see.. >: >: Its a universally available tool on ALL machines, without depending >: on owning a third party product. This means that an Apple user who >: downloads something from the Net has a tool to start from. > >But it doesn't do anything for a Mac user since Mac software in not in >tar format. Perhaps for Rhapsody this will change, but I think that >you are assuming things which aren't decide yet. Sure it does. It gives Apple users a method of dealing with the oft available tar files on the net. > >: Same can be said for compress, ftp, telnet, etc... > >And there are software tools available for free or cheap which handle most >of these in an GUI fashion familar to Mac users, so CLI version is of no >use to Mac users. Will it be the Mac users or the NeXT users who must >adapt. Both of course, we just don't know where who will give in. You don't seem to be arguing the point you were, namely that the unix utilities should be removed because they are infringing on third party markets. > >: >Even before the >: >new OS, Apple's usurpation of functionality was one of the main complaints >: >from developers. Apple is particularly beholden to their developers >: >now since without developer support, Rhapsody is OpenStep/PPC. > >: >... There will be pressure on Apple to drop such functions. >: >: Then they need to "value add" to their products. >: >: Even if they drop it from the OS CD, anyone can compile it for it, >: and still give it away. >: >: If they pressure Apple to drop basic functionality like this, then >: Apple should tell them to take a leap. >: > >What a NeXT user sees as basic functionality might seem like wasted disk >space to a Mac user. Dropping them also reduces Apple's support load, >perhaps lowering the cost. If it's a compiled freeware add-on it's not >Apple's job to support it. Use it at your own risk. With tech savvy >NeXT folks the risks of such are smaller than with typical desktop users. > >: >: >Case #2, the Unix utility A is a "poor" substitute for Mac application B. >: >In this case, what is the point of including this utility in the OS? >: >: Because its required by those who don't have the commercial product. >: >: Hell, better drop Edit.app from the release, its a RTF text editor, >: and the word processor people are going to scream. > >So Apple is supposed to provide free versions of everything in case you >can't afford (or don't want to spend the money on) the commercial version? No. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't remove the functionality from the Unix underpinnings to prop up a market. I've bent over backwards to help NeXT ISVs keep things together over the past 3 or 4 years at great personal time and expense. I'm not anti-commercial software in any respect. >The economics of a $100 dollar desktop OS are very different from those >of a workstation OS. In the case of Edit.app, Apple does provide Simple >Text. Should they provide both? > >: >Unix >: >compatibility comes the reply. Well, how important is Unix compatibility? >: >: Very. > >To a NeXT user. Too much Unix compatibility might make some Mac users >scared, or at least seem like a waste of disk space. > >: >It's clear from this thread that to NeXT users it's essential. But how >: >much does this matter to the Mac community that Apple is pitching Rhapsody >: >to? >: >: Oh, you mean like those piddly companies that have fortune 500 >: status? You know, those Enterprise installations Apple HAS to get to get >: back into the corporate market? > >Apple needs to appeal to their current users in order to survive long >enough for enterprise to take notice. Besides NeXT demonstrated that >even a solid reputation in the enterprise market is not enough to >keep a large company or hardware manufacturer alive. >: >: > Would they rather have the system take up less space or have Unix >: >compatibility 99% of them would never use. The feelings of NeXT users >: >(none of whom have compatible hardware) are secondary to the 10-100 times >: >larger Mac community. >: >: Well, scr*w you too. Apple has said today that OpenStep for other >: platforms will continue to live, so suddenly alot more people become >: relevant due to hardware compatibility. >: >: And again, what if an Enterprise application running on >: OpenStep/Solaris or OpenStep/Intel require these tools? Someone needs a new >: machine, Apple doesn't ship with the essential tools, so we better just buy >: another Intel box with OpenStep/Intel on it. > >You are taking this too personally. You said... "The feelings of NeXT users are secondary" my reply to that is that you better start to open up, or Apple's gonna die. >I'm not trying to rain on you parade. >Apple has said they will continue to support OpenStep on Intel and >Solaris, but I haven't heard anything clear from them about future >development, either as Rhapsody on other hardware or independently. Then you should be reading the letter that Dr. Gil now has on NeXT's WWW site. >Infoworld suggests that wrangling over these options is delaying >fundamental choices like which kernal to bring to Rhapsody. Yeah, well, you gotta fill that print space. >The 1% number is based on estimates of Linux installations on PCs. Perhaps >it should be a few %. It sounds like you really want Rhapsody to be a >cheap Unix, like a supported Linux. You're wrong. What I want is for Apple to take the best of what it has to offer, and the best of what OpenStep has to offer (rich framework, EOF, WOF, preemptive multi-tasking, etc...) and make the best, most openly compatible system available. >Mac users install Mac versions of >servers. Some are free, some cost money but are supported. If you want >Linux, get Linux. Don't ask millions of Mac users to accept Linux. I'm not. What I'm asking is don't cripple the OS just to save 20 Mb of install space. >: >: Will Apple prohibit compiling and distribution of find then? Who >: gets hurt by Apple including it? >: >: And what if someone writes a really cool freeware utility that uses >: find... do they have to supply it? > >Of course Apple will not prohibit or inhibit distribution of any software. >Apple just won't support it. I can just imagine calls to Apple which >get answered, "Well you need to add -print to tell it to print the list of >files it finds." Use at your own risk. > I doubt that Apple does that with A/UX. >: >Naturally, every real example is somewhere in between, but both of the >: >extreme cases argue against strong Unix compatibility. >: >: Yeah, compatibility is bad. :-| > >Personally, I'd love Unix compatibility in my Mac, so all the Unix >skills I have at work could be put to better use at home. But Apple >isn't pushing Rhapsody for us tech-heads, it's got to appeal to a wider >base that couldn't care less about Unix compatibility. Not having it and not using it are entirely different things. >: >: CyberDog is bad. It hurts Eudora and other mail companies, better >: kill it now. > >Apple did get pressure not to do Cyberdog, but evidently decided that >the time had come for an least primitive systemwide Internet services. >Perhaps for Rhapsody they'll add Unix compatibility to the list of things >necessary to the OS. > >: sendmail, that might piss off a mail-gateway company >: ppp - hell, someone might want to make a commercial version >: ftp, sed, awk, perl, - all useful, but might tread on someone's >: toes, gotta kill them. >: >: ftpd, httpd, Apache, INN - all server products that will compete >: with other products. They're free here, gotta kill them too. > >Most of these would not be used by enough users to justify inclusion in >the OS. Mac equivalents for most of the rest are available for free, >some from Apple. If it wasn't and there was demand, someone would have >ported it. Oh, but you want these exact versions. Get a Linux box >then. Mac users are largely happy with what they have, if only it'd run >stably, in protected memory with pre-emptive multitasking. > >: >It will be >: >interesting to see how Apple resolves this. Perhaps some add-on Unix >: >compatibility, even from a 3rd party. >: >: And lets not forget it will be free. > >Last time I heard OpenStep was far from free. It really sounds like you >want Linux. I doubt you'll be happy with the outcome, because the OS is >going to cost > $100 with or without complete BSD. > No, what I want is OpenStep/Rhapsody. But crippling power users for the purpose of protecting the naive (instead of altering the method they would use or be able to access the dangerous stuff) is stupid. As I said, I don't have anything against commercial products, hell, its the market I'm in. -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!taurus!news From: "David Every" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 25 Jan 97 07:24:07 +0000 Organization: adnc.com Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5cc533$drv@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.158.13.129 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a1 X-News-Servers: news.adnc.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.adnc.com/comp.sys.mac.system Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22081 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54972 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182579 comp.sys.mac.system:194465 > Clone sales were estimated at between 350,000 to 500,000 units. Power > Computing is rumored to have sold a bulk of that number. Motorola > only started shipping machines in late 1996, Daystar sold about 5000 > boxes (mostly high end multi-cpu configs) APS and Umax? haven't heard > much about them at all. Do you have any idea where a 5.1 Million number > could be reached? Since I was the originator of that post (dont know how someone else got credit/blame) I can tell you where I read it - it was in a Dialy Professional Mac Journal I get - called MDJ (Mac Daily Journal). They were talking about MacOS sales (which included clones) and they mentioned the 5.1 million number over the 4.6 million the year before. -- David K. Every MacKiDo Warrior - The Power of the Macintosh Way! -- =A91997 DKE. Non-exclusive, royalty free license to distribute is granted to any service provider except Microsoft. By distributing this, Microsoft agrees to pay $1,000 per posting. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-16.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 25 Jan 1997 15:08:30 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3a18.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22082 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182581 comp.sys.mac.system:194466 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54973 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Ports of apps from Unix to Rhapsody? > Sure hope so. Doesn't any Mac user see some advantages to being able to > run your own personal web server on your own machine, or to be able to > send and receive electronic mail quickly and efficiently? We already can do all those things, just not on the scale you're thinking of :) Try 'run TinyMuck server software, IRC server software, a small net _backbone_ or a mail _router_ ' for a more accurate description of what we would be gaining. No sense in acting like we don't have any of that as we do have personal web servers available, and lord, can we ever do E-mail quickly and efficiently, by standards sendmail doesn't even address such as clarity of design and smoothness of operation :) and of course the ever popular live links to all sorts of net content in the E-mail :) We have 'personal' type stuff. We'll be gaining 'industrial-strength' type stuff. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!mr.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 25 Jan 1997 15:26:18 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3a18.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22083 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54974 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182582 comp.sys.mac.system:194469 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > I am not saying that Apple should be strictly motivated by money, but > the possible financial value of a market is far more important than raw > marketshare in terms of numbers of users. Marketshare _times_ the > per-seat profit (or net worth, or invested capital, or whatever similar > measure you want to use) is a better estimate of the importance of a > market. For all that Apple sells far more Macs per year than Sun sells > SPARCstations, Sun is a bigger company because the Unix server market is > worth a lot more per seat. Is this actually true? If so, Apple could be looking at potentially high revenues out of sales of the very same extremely high-end machines that have always sold for Apple (or new ones made even more high-end for the purpose) Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 25 Jan 1997 15:37:59 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c9g5b$nrl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E91CBE.56EF@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm3a18.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22084 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54975 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182583 comp.sys.mac.system:194470 In article <32E91CBE.56EF@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > NeXTSTEP's Open and Save panels default to your home directory, > IIRC. So storing Edit documents in /NextApps would be more > work than putting them in ~/Library, since you'd have to do > more browsing to get there. Ah- that helps explain it. I _can_ set up my Mac to default to 'documents' or something, but instead I've always had each app default to the last folder used while in the app, which really reinforces my arguably odd organizational procedures :) the control panel for doing this is 'General Controls' by the way, for the few who aren't already going 'I knew that, don't condescend to me' ;) Often this means that there is no browsing at all- I go to an app which I've not used that much, and bam, it is anticipating me because the last time I used it I was geared to a particular task and area. Similar task- same area- no browsing. I bet they keep this as an option (which it currently is). Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!sun4nl!cwi.nl!stes From: stes@cwi.nl (David Stes) Subject: Sorting in Objective C Message-ID: Sender: news@cwi.nl (The Daily Dross) Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus.cwi.nl Organization: CWI, Amsterdam Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:24:24 GMT Lines: 58 Michael Hudson wrote: > OK. Can you write me a short bit of code that would sort an > array of any type in Objective-C? > (I don't really want a complete quicksort algorithm, but > somethnig that shows it would be possible) A style that I personally like, is sorting NOT by working inplace on the data, but by using a Class ... that sorts (Tree in the code below). id sortThem(id aCollection) { id sorted,elements,anElement; sorted = [Tree new]; elements = [aCollection eachElement]; while (anElement = [elements next]) [sorted add:anElement]; elements = [elements free]; return sorted; } This works because the |add:| message will send a |compare:| message to figure out where to put "anElement". It's also possible to create a Tree that uses a different selector as sorting criterium (sorted = [Tree newSel:@selector(dictCompare:)];) for instance. Actually the code above could be done shorter, now that I'm thinking of it. id sortThem(id aCollection) { return [[Tree new] addContentsOf:aCollection]; } The one liner above will sort the objects in "aCollection". Once you have the objects in sorted order, and if you'd want them as a _collection_ (where you could use an offset index, which you can't for a Tree), then [[Collection new] addContentsOf:aTree]; would do the trick. And if you'd like to remove duplicate entries, [[Set new] addContentsOf:aCollection]; One thing that would be really "cool", is having Block objects instead of just selectors for sorting. sorted = [Tree newSortBy:|id a,b; return [b compare:a];|] for a reverse compare. In this case, you can still get away easily by just passing along a selector, but I think even here the block syntax is nicer. Anyhow to be clear, the |...| syntax that I've used above isn't part of Objective C (currently). David. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news From: robert@amo.mit.edu (Robert Lutwak) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Writing a Mail.app bundle Date: 25 Jan 1997 16:58:29 GMT Organization: Erol's Internet Services Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5cde3l$ik8@boursy.news.erols.com> Reply-To: robert@amo.mit.edu (Robert Lutwak) NNTP-Posting-Host: dam-as5s60.erols.com Hi. I'd like to write a Mail.app bundle. Can somebody point me to some documentation to get started ? Thanks, Robert -- Robert Lutwak robert@amo.mit.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 23 Jan 1997 02:17:40 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 46 Message-ID: <5c73ak$ics@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22087 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54982 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182598 comp.sys.mac.system:194477 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > (Win-like???? Are we talking about the same Windows? You know, that > > operating system that likes to dump files everywhere on your drive? > > Windows does NOT have a mandatory Applications folder or anything like > > that.) > How can you possibly say that after blasting me over not wanting /bin on > my drive! Easy. Go back and read your original statement. You said something to the effect that keeping everything in the same place was "Win-like". That is NOT Win-like. Unix /bin directories have nothing to do with Windows' behavior for placing files. > > I don't understand why you want to scatter your applications all over > > the filesystem. > Because it's MY file system. You don't have to like it, do what you wish. Not if it requires making compromises. NEXTSTEP has its restriction on file placement so it doesn't have to search the entire filesystem for things. Alternatives include keeping a database of locations or restructuring the filesystem to use file IDs, all of which have downsides in multiuser systems, efficiency, etc. > > I don't know anyone who does this. Even the Mac > > people tend to put everything in the Applications folder or a > > subdirectory of it. > Balogna, I can't think of a single Mac I've every had the pleasure of > using that had all of it's programs arranged such, and that's a large > number of Macs (in the hundreds). That's just _wrong_. Then I'm afraid I'm going to have to call you an idiot. Who are you to tell me what the Mac users I know do??!! I know a number of Mac users, and my summer job for the last few summers was at a completely Mac office, and when I say that "I don't know anyone who does this", I mean, _I don't know anyone who does this_. All of the Mac users I know either put things in the Applications folder (or a subdirectory thereof), or partly in the Applicatins folder and partly on the Desktop. Care to play any other mind-reading games? -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: Bill Bumgarner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Concerning Function Overloading in Obj-C.(Re: Multiple Inheritance) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:38:36 -0500 Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 62 Message-ID: <32EB969C.72DA@friday.com> References: <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5ccaka$n27@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: bbum@friday.com NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh2-port86.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) X-Priority: Normal Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11147 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3731 comp.sys.next.programmer:22088 But [within objective-c] there are a number of ways to do control flow based on object type or based on what functionality the object supports. some examples: Assuming you have a method like: - eatObject: anObject { ... CODE HERE ... } The ... CODE HERE ... part could contain flow control like: * switch on membership within a specific class: if ([anObject isMemberOfClass: [NSArray class]]) { ... it's an NSArray ... } else if ... * switch on membership within a specific class or subclass of said class: if ([anObject isKindOfClass: NSClassFromString(@"NSView")]) { ... it's a view of some kind ... } * switch on the fact that it implements a specific method: if ([anObject respondsToSelector: @selector(performCalculation:with:)]){ ... it implements -performCalculation:with: ... } * switch on the fact that it implements some protocol (a protocol is a collection of methods. Conformance to a protocol means that an object implements all of the methods in the protocol. IN distributed objects, not only can a proxy (a representation of an object within a remote runtime) conform to a protocol, it can be limited to ONLY responding to methods from a protocol)): if ([anObject conformsToProtocol: @protocol(ProcessRFC822MessagesP)]) { ... it implements the RFC822 processing protocol ... } And remember, since it is objective-c, all of the above flexibility is available for any class in the runtime-- be it one linked into the system libraries, one that was dynamically loaded at runtime, or one that created on-the-fly by the program... b.bum Nathan M. Urban wrote: > > In article , jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) wrote: > > > Can't we just pass the parameter as an id object and then do a switch based > > on the object type? > > No, the object type isn't an ordinal. You can't switch on it, just like > you can't switch on strings. > -- > Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: Bill Bumgarner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Sorting in Objective C Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:31:11 -0500 Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 48 Message-ID: <32EBA2EF.A40@friday.com> References: Reply-To: bbum@friday.com NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh2-port92.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) X-Priority: Normal Within the foundation kit, NSArray already has API for sorting objects-- there is no need to implement your own sorting algorithm unless you have some collection of objects for which the built-in sorting algorithm just ain't good enough. Since you define the comparison function or method, the built-in algorithm is 'good enough' for 99% of all cases where you need to sort an array. - (NSArray *)sortedArrayUsingFunction:(int(*)(id element1, id element2, void *userData))comparator context:(void *)context Returns an array listing the receiver's elements in ascending order as defined by the comparison function comparator. context is passed to the comparator function as its third argument.  - (NSArray *)sortedArrayUsingSelector:(SEL)comparator Returns an array listing the receiver's elements in ascending order, as determined by the comparison method specified by the selector comparator. -- So, assuming 'theArray' points to the array you wish to sort, and all of the objects within that array implement the method -compare: (a bunch of the foundation kit objects already do; like NSString and friends). You could: sortedArray = [theArray sortedArrayUsingSelector: @selector(compare:)]; Now-- if you had an array that contained a bunch of objects for which may not implement the sorting method... or may implement a variety of comparison methods (which, btw, would be an indication that someone wasn't following the suggested rules when defining their API :-), you could: int compare_func(id obj1, id obj2, void *context) { // if they both have compare:, compare 'em... if ([obj1 respondsTo: @selector(compare:)] && [obj2 respondsTo: @selector(compare:)]) return [obj1 compare: obj2]; // ok-- figure out how to compare 'em here and return -1 for // obj1 < obj2, 0 for obj1 == obj2 and 1 for obj1 > obj2 // (whatever) return 1; } b.bum #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!agate!pbrown From: pbrown@ashkhabad.berkeley.edu (Paul R. Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: BASIC on NeXT? Date: 25 Jan 1997 19:06:49 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ashkhabad.berkeley.edu X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.8.3 (BETA) UNIX) In article , Glen Stewart wrote: >Anyway, I'd love to be able to do BASIC programming in UNIX. Does anyone >here know if there is such a compiler available? GCC seems to be just >about everywhere (even on the Mac68k port), but BASIC is what I really >prefer. Well, if you *must*, then you have two choices. One is to write your own BASIC interpretter in C as an exercise (it's easy, really!), and the other is to grab the p2c distribution, a pascal -> c converter, which comes with just such a program. Paul #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:05:09 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 52 Message-ID: <32ea560c.2161748@nntp.ix.netcom.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$7e4@gaea.titan.org> <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7es1$7bc2@ddfservb.technet.net> <32E801FB.4475@taligent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca84-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 25 1:05:19 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11149 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3732 comp.sys.next.programmer:22091 On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:27:42 -0800, Rich Gillam wrote: > >Another point is that while the examples will work with collections of >any type, they won't (necessarily) work with collections where the >elements are of DIFFERENT types. Unless the element types define >comparison operations which compare them to not only other instances of >the same type, but to instances of any other types that are represented >in the collection (amd which are commutative), you'll either get bogus >results or a runtime exception. There is no way (I think) to define a >collection such that it is guaranteed to hold only instances of a >certain type. > Sure there is: add a method named something like - (void) setPrototype: (id) objectType allowSubclasses:( BOOL) subclassesAllowed which accepts an object and stores the class object corresponding to it. Then when things are added to the array, a quick check (either "do you instantiate this class" or "do you instantiate a subclass of this class") and you're done. If you really want to be sticky, use - initWithPrototype: (id) objectType allowSubclasses:( BOOL) subclassesAllowed and over-ride the standard init to throw an exception. That'll force the user to start with a typed array. You can also do this with selectors (pass in a selector which must be implemented by the object) or protocols (pass in a protocol object) or you could say to hell with it and just have your array use another object. E.g. the array implements - (void) setCheckingObject: newChecker; and newChecker implements the method - (BOOL) validateNewArrayEntry: (id) objectToValidate; This lets us do lots of neat stuff (you can type your array using an arbitrary predicate). Cheers, Andy "In the beginning, everything was even money" --Mike Caro #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news5.digex.net!phcs!papoose.quick.com!papoose.quick.com!not-for-mail From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mach-O and localization, was Re: Apple-NeXT Conflicts? Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 18 Jan 1997 12:44:59 -0500 Organization: PHCS Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5br26r$h4o@papoose.quick.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: papoose.quick.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182617 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54990 comp.sys.next.programmer:22092 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >In article <0mrHfT600iV945m0Ei@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles W Swiger > wrote: > >> multiple sections supported by Mach-O are a straightforward extension of >> the venerable a.out format, which had precisely three sections: TEXT, >> DATA, and BSS. > > Ahhhhhhh. So (you see this coming), why did it stop there? Because that is all that was needed. a.out is a format for executable images - the output of a compiler. The TEXT section contained the actual machine code which is executed by the CPU. The DATA section contained all pre-initialized data. The BSS section contained all other data statically allocated global data space. BSS was separate from data to cut down on executable size, since pages of bss could simply be grabbed from the VM subsytem when needed. This discussion of Mach-o is entirely out of context. Mach-o, like a.out, is an executable image format. It specifies how the operating system organizes, loads, and addresses components of executable images running on the system. It is true that mach-o provides a similar set of functionality to Resource and Data forks under MacOS. But the underlying purpose of this format is different. p.s. Follow-ups have been trimmed as it is not appropriate to cross-post this the c.s.n.programming groups. -- ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com / / / | Private HealthCare Systems NeXTMail O.K. \_/ (_\/ | Systems Integration Group (617) 895-3343 ) | "I don't think so," said Rene Descartes. Just then, he vanished. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 25 Jan 1997 19:22:10 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 28 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5cdmh2$j7f@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E8F5E9.2620@nowhere.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca16-11.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 25 1:22:10 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11150 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3733 comp.sys.next.programmer:22093 Michael Hudson wrote: > I can think of another reason why C++ took off, rather than Objective-C: > That looks nothing like C. > C++ code (unless it's very templatey) looks much like C. > I have never coded in pure C, but I'd say that the fact that C++ can > look like C must have made the transition less scary for many people. I think that your perceptions are biased because you know C++ and didn't come from a C background as I did. I used to follow the monthly "C++ Adviser" articles in _Unix Review_ as a means of trying to understand C++. Initially, I could understand what was happening because the syntax was very C-like. But as more and more syntactic additions to C++ occurred, I became less able to follow what was happening and finally quit reading the articles. For example, the frequent use of & in seemingly odd places is very confusing to me just as the use of [ and ] in Objective-C in seemingly odd places would be confusing to C programmers. But I'd be willing to wager that if a C programmer was handed a complex C++ code sample using most of the C++ language features and a similar Objective-C code sample, the confusion level would be similar. But I'd also be willing to wager that the C programmer could learn Objective-C MUCH faster than C++. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.eiffel Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 25 Jan 1997 19:29:09 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5cdmu5$j7f@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> <32E6A101.7010@acm.org> <32E85082.37DE@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca16-11.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 25 1:29:09 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11151 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3734 comp.sys.next.programmer:22094 comp.lang.eiffel:14065 Ian Joyner wrote: > Perhaps someone should encourage Metrowerks to get together with > an Eiffel compiler vendor or someone willing to write an Eiffel > compiler for CW. It sounds like they would be a really good match. > Having already written an Eiffel compiler in Pascal, I'm willing > to volunteer. IDE (or whatever Bertrand Meyer's company is called) has offered an Eiffel development environment for NEXTSTEP in the past. Not sure if an OPENSTEP version is available, but it probably wouldn't be too difficult to convert the NEXTSTEP version. If IDE offered Eiffel for the small NEXTSTEP market, they are likely to offer a version for the much larger Rhapsody market. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 18 Jan 1997 18:11:52 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 64 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5br3p8$o2i@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca5-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Jan 18 12:11:52 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11152 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3736 comp.sys.next.programmer:22095 milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) wrote: > So what kind of relationship exists between the number of methods in a > class, the depth of subclassing, and the time to resolve a method call? The number of methods shouldn't have any performance implication because the methods are hashed. The depth of subclassing probably directly affects the time to resolve a method call the first time a method is invoked on an object (or probably on any instance of a class), but because of method caching, the resolution time of subsequent invocations probably isn't proportional to subclassing depth. I don't know how method caching is implemented, but I've read that the average method invocation, although somewhat slower than a C function call, isn't much slower (whatever "much" means :-) > C++ _is_ getting old. But I don't think Java was designed for the purpose > of creating large class libraries or large or time-critical systems (even > aside from the fact that it is currently implemented as an interpreted > language). It's design - like Obj-C - reflects restrictive requirements of > an underlying layer as well as the latest thoughts about good programming. I suspect that compiled Java will evolve into a general object-oriented programming language that will gradually displace C++. As you've noted, much of the power of languages involves their libraries, and Java doesn't have those yet. > In some ways C++ is more pure and abstract because you don't worry about > the runtime overhead of creating objects of any little thing and stacking > zillions of them in a list (with compile-time binding most such methods > duck the virtual tables). I guess if I were to use Obj-C/Next I would > still do part of my development in C++. Objective-C supports ducking the message dispatch process as well. Programmers can ask for the pointer to the function that implements a method and use that if performance is an issue such as in large loops. There's no reason why C++ programmers wouldn't continue to use their C++ code and their C++ skills to write Model and maybe Controller classes in C++. > I think the idea of building an OS as an extensible class library is > superb, and my sense is that _that_ is what makes Next/OpenStep such a > dynamite environment, more than a particular choice of language. I can see > that Obj-C was designed to support just such an arrangement - would be > much messier with C++. Most of the advantages of Obj-C that have been > pointed out to me bear directly on this arrangement. Bingo! You've got it! > But this is a different issue than merely comparing the features of two > languages. Indeed, how often do we choose languages just on the basis of > their ideal qualities, abstracted from the realities of our enterprises? > Next has delivered a solution more than a language. > > The advantages of Obj-C don't seem as striking outside of that context. But we're talking about Rhapsody development, aren't we? This will use OPENSTEP libraries and their extensions (Apple technologies). So Objective-C should be pretty striking in this context. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.udel.edu!not-for-mail From: chao@copland.udel.edu (John David Chao) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 18 Jan 1997 16:01:39 -0500 Organization: University of Delaware Lines: 8 Message-ID: <5brdnj$65l@copland.udel.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: copland.udel.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22096 comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11153 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3737 Charles W Swiger said: >Sure. Obj-C itself does not support MI or operator-overloading, but >Obj-C++ does. People using pure Obj-C generally seem to use forwarding I haven't heard of Obj-C++. Is Metrowerks going to have a compiler for it? How does it compare to Obj-C? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: john_zollinger@arkona.com (John Zollinger) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Can one inherit from a class cluster? How? Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 20:45:48 GMT Organization: Arkona, LLC Lines: 30 Message-ID: <32ea7027.61233939@news.xmission.com> References: <5c60fj$40qc@news.doit.wisc.edu> Reply-To: john_zollinger@arkona.com NNTP-Posting-Host: slc62.modem.xmission.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) wrote: > >I was trying to implement a subclass of NSData that had an extra instance >variable in it designating the endian-ness of the machine it originated on >(so I could convert it appropriately when using Distributed Objects across >different architectures). The problem is, I can't seem to create a subclass >of NSData because it isn't really a class - it's a class cluster (it doesn't >give an error until I try to create an instance of the subclass at runtime, >then it fails). > >Has anyone run into this problem? A solution? > >The kluge I am using right now is just having another container object that >holds an NSData object. But there are a number of inconveniences in this >approach. Advice appreciated. Take a look at: http://www.next.com/NeXTanswers/HTMLFiles/2003.htmld/2003.html And look for the section titled: "CLASS CLUSTERS" towards the end. It tells you all about the class clusters and the steps necessary for doing what you want. Good luck, John Zollinger Software Engineering Director Arkona, LLC john_zollinger@arkona.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!pacbell.com!ames!purdue!haven.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu!vdal5.eng.umd.edu!no_spam From: no_spam@Glue.umd.edu (David T. Wang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 25 Jan 1997 17:11:06 GMT Organization: University of Maryland, College Park, MD Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5cdera$hli@dailyplanet.wam.umd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: vdal5.eng.umd.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22098 comp.sys.next.advocacy:54996 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182640 comp.sys.mac.system:194558 David Every (dke@adnc.com) wrote: : > Clone sales were estimated at between 350,000 to 500,000 units. : Power : > Computing is rumored to have sold a bulk of that number. Motorola : > only started shipping machines in late 1996, Daystar sold about 5000 : > boxes (mostly high end multi-cpu configs) APS and Umax? haven't : heard : > much about them at all. Do you have any idea where a 5.1 Million : number : > could be reached? : Since I was the originator of that post (dont know how someone else : got credit/blame) I can tell you where I read it - it was in a Dialy : Professional Mac Journal I get - called MDJ (Mac Daily Journal). They : were talking about MacOS sales (which included clones) and they : mentioned the 5.1 million number over the 4.6 million the year before. Upgrades? perhaps upgrades from Sys 7.1 to 7.5 counted as a sale? : -- : David K. Every : MacKiDo Warrior - The Power of the Macintosh Way! : -- : =A91997 DKE. Non-exclusive, royalty free license to distribute is : granted to any service provider except Microsoft. By distributing : this, Microsoft agrees to pay $1,000 per posting. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!netnews.nwnet.net!news.u.washington.edu!soroos From: soroos@u.washington.edu (Eric Soroos) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:07:23 -0800 Organization: The Bungled and the Botched Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cs2-12.u.washington.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-anti-netscape: X-pgp-public-key: http://e-soroos.ce.washington.edu/publicKey.html X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22099 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182654 comp.sys.mac.system:194571 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55002 In article , jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) wrote: > Try 'run TinyMuck server software, IRC server software, a small net >_backbone_ or a mail _router_ ' for a more accurate description of what we >would be gaining. No sense in acting like we don't have any of that as we >do have personal web servers available, and lord, can we ever do E-mail >quickly and efficiently, by standards sendmail doesn't even address such >as clarity of design and smoothness of operation :) and of course the ever >popular live links to all sorts of net content in the E-mail :) > We have 'personal' type stuff. We'll be gaining 'industrial-strength' >type stuff. Procmail. I want procmail. Badly. eric - Current procmail setting: "toast lightly" -- soroos@u.washington.edu http://www.ce.washington.edu/~soroos #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 25 Jan 1997 20:51:41 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5cdrot$616@news.xmission.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11154 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3740 comp.sys.next.programmer:22100 milkweed@plainfield.bypass.com (Anders Pytte) wrote: > But i have a few concerns. Using categories do i have access to private > members? If so, I see a danger, in that I could develop a set of > categories which would become invalid when the purveyer of my library > modified private data or method members. This _is_ a problem. Whenever you do something that is so tightly coupled to other code, you get into trouble. Of course, it depends on how tightly coupled you category code is--you can write it so that it goes via accessor methods and non-privates (taking a slight performance hit) and then it will be pretty well isolated from changes in the library. Of course, if you're using this to work around bugs, a new library release may obsolete your category any way, so it really depends upon the specific case as to how much of a problem this really is in practice. > More often I have wanted to modify the behavior of an existing method in a > base class (say there is a bug in the library). Is there any way I do that > in Obj-C? Or would I need to change the library source? No messing with the library source at all; you just use a combination of categories and/or -poseAs: (wich to use depends on what exactly you're trying to do) and you can get around just about anything--you can even play stunts like completely altering how GUI objects are rendered throughout your app, etc. (There's a hack out there that will turn all your app's windows into the style of the unreleased 4.0 PR1 GUI. :-) It uses the -poseAs: mechanism.) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 25 Jan 1997 20:51:19 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5cdro7$616@news.xmission.com> References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E8F5E9.2620@nowhere.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11155 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3741 comp.sys.next.programmer:22101 Michael Hudson wrote: > Nathan M. Urban wrote: > > [...Objective-C code...] > > I can think of another reason why C++ took off, rather than Objective-C: > That looks nothing like C. > C++ code (unless it's very templatey) looks much like C. > I have never coded in pure C, but I'd say that the fact that C++ can > look like C must have made the transition less scary for many people. While I agree that this is a _possible_ reason, it is also very, very sad. Why? When you move from a procedural language to an OOP language, you have to learn some _very_ different concepts. By retaining similar syntax, C++ makes it difficult to sort out which concepts are which, in the long run making things more confusing for a person learning a new paradigm. In Objective-C the two different paradigms are quite apparent; you know which is which at a glance just by looking at the code. Additionally, C++, by virtue of the explosion of new features over C (the syntax additions are legion in number) is actually _harder_ to learn than Objective-C, which has about 20 changes, if that! It may _look_ different, but it is closer to C than is C++, if you look at the language's grammar. Ironic, isn't it? Still, the way C++ "looks" more like C may well have made it seem less intimidating initially to many people--even though in reality Objective-C is much easier to learn. As a person who has learned both languages, I assure you Obj-C is a lot easier to learn and deal with. :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!ddsw1!not-for-mail From: font@MCS.COM (Font) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: BASIC on NeXT? Date: 25 Jan 1997 19:22:00 -0600 Organization: MCSNet Services Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5cebjo$h75$1@Venus.mcs.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: venus.mcs.com pbrown@ashkhabad.berkeley.edu (Paul R. Brown) writes: >In article , Glen Stewart wrote: >>Anyway, I'd love to be able to do BASIC programming in UNIX. Does anyone >>here know if there is such a compiler available? GCC seems to be just >>about everywhere (even on the Mac68k port), but BASIC is what I really >>prefer. >Well, if you *must*, then you have two choices. One is to write your >own BASIC interpretter in C as an exercise (it's easy, really!), and >the other is to grab the p2c distribution, a pascal -> c converter, >which comes with just such a program. I seem to recall that porting the Bywater BASIC interpreter to NEXTSTEP wasn't difficult, but I don't recall where the Bywater BASIC interpreter can be found. However, there is a FreeBSD port of it which should refer one to the archive site (check from http://www.freebsd.org). -- font@mcs.net Wishes are like dishes. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 18 Jan 1997 06:30:31 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5bpqm7$lul@news.xmission.com> References: <5blksl$ruc@news.next.com> <5boc53$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> <32E032F1.3D7@afs.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11157 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3743 comp.sys.next.programmer:22103 "Gregory H. Anderson" wrote: > That said, I really don't miss MI, whether or not someone thinks I would > be better off without it. I find objects-owning-objects (which I > described the other day) and delegation/forwarding sufficient. Ya know, the GOF book (Patterns book mentioned here earlier) even says that object composition is more important than inheritance. Which is what the Obj-C people have been saying all along. And that book is written from more of a C++ viewpoint, but it is also written by some people who really know what they are talking about! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT OS: Porting a UNIX app ? Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:10:01 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Lines: 12 Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk In article maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes: > I ran a lab of them. Sun 3/50's, based around the 68030. 3/50 = 68020 4Meg Ram 3/60 = 68020 up to 24Meg Ram 3/80 = 68030 Not THAT slow if you set them up right, and have realistic expectaitions of what they can do. $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: BASIC on NeXT? Date: 26 Jan 1997 01:10:04 GMT Organization: NO ORGANIZATION, INC. Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5ceatc$sss@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: pbrown@ashkhabad.berkeley.edu In Paul R. Brown wrote: > In article , Glen Stewart wrote: > >Anyway, I'd love to be able to do BASIC programming in UNIX. Does anyone > >here know if there is such a compiler available? GCC seems to be just > >about everywhere (even on the Mac68k port), but BASIC is what I really > >prefer. > > Well, if you *must*, then you have two choices. One is to write your > own BASIC interpretter in C as an exercise (it's easy, really!), and > the other is to grab the p2c distribution, a pascal -> c converter, > which comes with just such a program. > Look in the comp.sources.[misc|unix] archive, there are several basic interpreters available in source. You have to recompile them yourself. And not even think about a GUI :-)... -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.139.9.15!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!nerc.com!luomat Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <199701250636.BAA05669@nerc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Image-Url: http://www.nerc.com/~luomat/Timothy_J_Luoma-X-Face.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 01:36:50 -0500 Subject: Need a little C-help Reply-To: luomat@peak.org Organization: Princeton Theological Seminary X-Url: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/ X-Nextstep-Url: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next X-Next-Faq: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/faq.html Lines: 68 I would like to change this bit of code for PPP I can't read C much, so I'm floundering here. Lines 16-20 are the ones which control the bringing down of the link if the idle time has been met. I would like to replace the existing code with code which will: 1) send a message to /dev/console saying "Idle time exceeded, bringing down link" 2) execute "/usr/local/bin/pppdown" (preferably with the UID and GID of use who started this all, but that isn't crucial) 1 /* 2 * check_idle - check whether the link has been idle for long 3 * enough that we can shut it down. 4 */ 5 static void 6 check_idle(arg) 7 caddr_t arg; 8 { 9 struct ppp_idle idle; 10 time_t itime; 11 12 if (!get_idle_time(0, &idle)) 13 return; 14 itime = MIN(idle.xmit_idle, idle.recv_idle); 15 if (itime >= idle_time_limit) { 16 /* link is idle: shut it down. */ 17 syslog(LOG_INFO, "Terminating connection due to lack of activity."); 18 need_holdoff = 0; 19 lcp_close(0, "Link inactive"); 20 } else { 21 TIMEOUT(check_idle, NULL, idle_time_limit - itime); 22 } 23 } 24 Please note that this "idle" feature of PPP is purely voluntary -- a user DOES NOT have to set an idle time for themselves. My ISP has a 30 minutes idle time, and I would be using this to restrict my idle time to 5 or 10 minutes (which I can do without altering any C code, but just using the "options" file for PPP. However, I cannot effectively do that unless I can get a little more control over what happens when the idle time is reached. In Sum: this will allow me to free up a link to my ISP faster than if I cannot change this. Any help appreciated. TjL ps -- can anyone recommend a good "C for Dummies"-like book? I've made it 5 years using a NeXT without knowing any C or perl, but it looks like that might have to change. -- Tj Luoma (luomat@peak.org) If you have a web page about NeXTStep|OpenStep, email me the URL! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.be.com!news1.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 25 Jan 1997 20:44:16 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5cenf0$jen@crl.crl.com> References: <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1bm1$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c46rq$84c@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22107 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55040 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182746 comp.sys.mac.system:194631 In article <5c46rq$84c@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, William Raphael Hix wrote: >Your use of tar seems predicated on a Rhapsody software distribution >system like most of Unix. Are you expecting lots of "here's the source >code now compile it yourself" apps ported from Unix to Rhapsody? >It's fundamental differences in expectations between the Mac and NeXT >communities which fuel this thread. Yes, there should be a lot of compile it yourself apps for Rhapsody. Most users won't see it, though. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Apache, new versions of Bind, multicast routers, and other gizmos running on Rhapsody. It's a useful personal machine with plenty of shrink-wrapped apps, and it's a unix machine that does all sorts of unix things. The two markets are distinct, though, so most of group A won't know that group B exists. -- Don McGregor | "If C++ is your hammer, then every problem looks mcgredo@crl.com | like a thumb." -- will@dyson.microserve.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:45:16 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32E7A3AC.36B92050@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E655AD.55D3@exnext.com> <32E78E99.1289@globalserve.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22108 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55042 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182749 comp.sys.mac.system:194636 Drone wrote: > Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > > > No, the Mac GUI does not let you do *everything*. If there is something > > that is not in the GUI, you *cannot* do it. Unless, of course, some > > nice programmer comes along and writes a program that lets it happen. > > > > Well, DUH! Excellent! This is exactly the kind of honesty I'd like to hear more of from the Mac community. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.24.16.4!news.walrus.com!p25.ts1.walrus.com!user From: "Burton William Schlatter" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: how to implement Mac in Nextstep part 2 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:51:38 -0500 Organization: Intellitech Corporation Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5amli2$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5c7juq$7n5@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5c93k6$l5c@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p25.ts1.walrus.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet Mail and News for Macintosh - 1.1 (34) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55051 comp.sys.next.programmer:22109 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182769 comp.sys.mac.system:194649 In article <5c93k6$l5c@news3.digex.net>, John Kheit wrote: > Yes, but ms dos, unix, and other system users are much bigger than > apple's market of say around 5million users with hardware capable > of running the upcoming OS. Yes, but as a Mac-only guy I eagerly await the more sophisticated NeXT approach to the UI, and I hope to see a lot of it ported over to Rhapsody. In fact, without knowing it, I've set my Finder up to be startlingly like what little I know of the NeXT UI. I used (use) Greg's Browser LONG before I heard it was based on NeXT's File Viewer, and I like it greatly. NeXTfolks/NeXTdevelopers: Don't sell your potential contribution to the MacOS short. Push for what you know to be better than what exists presently in the MacUI. If it's truly better, we'll (the Mac User community) know. Personally, I think that NeXT's UI concepts are exactly the kind of shake-up the MacOS needs. I mean, Gates needs SOMETHING to copy! ------------------------------------------------------ skateboy@walrus.com --- burt@wfmu.org ------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Hard Drive as Folders? (was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan) Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 19 Jan 1997 20:59:06 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5bu1uq$hrc@darla.visi.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b7ur5$oks@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5bbv1d$c66@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bsipf$l4g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E1C3C0.3E5A@washdc.mindspring.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22110 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55054 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182774 comp.sys.mac.system:194658 Mike (indigo2@washdc.mindspring.com) wrote: : I'm not so sure I understand this completely. Tell me if I'm wrong, but : if this is the case, then I could have four 2Gb hard drives all mounted : at the same place in the file system and it would appear that I have one : 8Gb hard drive, right? And the OS will know when one fills up and begin : using available space on the next drive? And I could just keep on : growing my hard drive? That's not exactly what he meant, but it can be done with additional software. You can't mount multiple drives to the some mount point. Using standard UNIX filesystem conventions, one drive = one mount point. Typically on a NeXT box you might see a 1G drive mounted at / for the OS and home directories, and another 1G drive mounted at /Local for user/site extensions. : Could I set things up so that, using the four drive example above, two : of the drives are a mirror of the other two? And if I pulled one of the : drives, things would keep humming along? What you're describing is called software RAID, which lets you combine multiple drives into "logical drives" which span physical disks, offer performance tuning features, mirroring, hot swapping, etc. It's something generally reserved for large scale servers, but Apple would do well to offer some sort of RAID support in the future.. : Are these just fantasies of mine because I don't understand what you're : saying? Yeah, I've kind of wished for that under NEXTSTEP a couple times. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsspool.doit.wisc.edu!news.doit.wisc.edu!news From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Doesn't anyone know about power management? (Does it work under NT?) Date: 23 Jan 1997 18:45:33 GMT Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison Lines: 50 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5c8bkd$2cco@news.doit.wisc.edu> References: <5c1vrs$ktg@uni2f.unige.ch> <5c6ia0$go7@belzebul.imaginet.fr> Reply-To: giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: f182-058.net.wisc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Cc: pjb@imaginet.fr,dami@cui.unige.ch In <5c6ia0$go7@belzebul.imaginet.fr> Pascal Bourguignon wrote: > In article <5c1vrs$ktg@uni2f.unige.ch> dami@cui.unige.ch (Laurent Dami) writes: > > > > For info: I'm using NS on a NEC Versa P laptop, and APM works just fine. > > I just suspend/resume very often, and never met any problem. But I know > > nothing about the kernel internals, sorry. > > One more data point: > > I'm using a DELL Lattitude XPi 90 ST, and I have to disable APM for the hardisk > would not resume when it's asleep. Then I would have to power off and on, and > then the file system is no more usable, and I have to reinstall it. > > __Pascal Bourguignon__ > I've discussed this issue with quite a few people, and the only portable machines I have heard of suspend/resume working under NeXTStep are the NEC's. If anyone has another machine that works, I'd like to hear about it. Last time I got info from NeXT, they claimed it was because most of the hardware makers don't correctly implement the 32 bit power management API's, because they don't need to under Windows (3.1 or 95). This may be true. But a counter to this is the fact that I know of several who claim suspend/resume work fine under Linux. Maybe Linux can still access the 16 bit protected-mode interfaces. Or maybe the mach kernel is doing something incorrectly. It is really hard to tell who is actually responsible. That has been my biggest frustration. NeXT points at the hardware mfgs., and they point back at the OS makers. It would be interesting to know whether suspend/resume works under Windows NT on the NEC machines (or any others). That may resolve the issue of where the problem is. Suspend/resume on NT does not work on my Toshiba, which would tend to support NeXT's claim of the hardware (bios) being at fault. But maybe NT just can't handle it on any machine. Does anyone have a system that correctly suspends/resumes under Windows NT? That would help clarify this. Thanks -- Michael Giddings giddings@chem.wisc.edu giddings@barbarian.com (608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851 http://www.barbarian.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.139.9.15!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!nerc.com!luomat Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <199701250752.CAA07705@nerc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Image-Url: http://www.nerc.com/~luomat/Timothy_J_Luoma-X-Face.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Sat, 25 Jan 97 02:52:11 -0500 Subject: "/usr/lib/libposix.a is out of date" -- why/what/help? Reply-To: luomat@peak.org Organization: Princeton Theological Seminary X-Url: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/ X-Nextstep-Url: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next X-Next-Faq: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/faq.html Lines: 24 "ld: table of contents for archive: /usr/lib/libposix.a is out of date; rerun ranlib(1) (can't load from it)" Why did this happen, how can I fix it, what does it mean, did something break (if so, is it bad?) sorry, I don't know anything about this stuff, just trying to figure it out as I go along. can I rerun "ranlib" on /usr/lib/libposix.a without causing problems in the future? Thanks TjL -- Tj Luoma (luomat@peak.org) If you have a web page about NeXTStep|OpenStep, email me the URL! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!sn.no!hermod.uio.no!nntp.uio.no!news.kth.se!tybalt.admin.kth.se!celsiustech.se!seunet!news2.swip.net!mn6.swip.net!mn5.swip.net!guinan.mm.se!cb From: cb@guinan.mm.se (Christian Brunschen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Loginwindow Workspace hook Date: 25 Jan 1997 23:56:20 GMT Organization: - Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5ce6j4$aim@mn5.swip.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: guinan.mm.se Keywords: loginwindow dwrite Workspace hook Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22113 comp.sys.next.misc:24845 comp.sys.next.software:27650 Hi, I am trying to start a different program than Workspace at login time. The manual page for 'loginwindow' states that dwrite loginwindow Workspace /Users/cb/bin/loginprogram should make loginwindow start /Users/cb/bin/loginprogram instead of Workspace.app at login time. I have tried doing just that. Result ? Nothing. No change in the behaviour of loginwindow. Workspace still gets started, and my program doesn't. I am running 3.3 on Black 040 hardware. If anyone has any ideas, please share them with me. A search at NeXTAnswers revealed nothing. Best regards, // Christian Brunschen -- -- Christian Brunschen cb@mm.se #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Writing a Mail.app bundle Date: 26 Jan 1997 05:26:59 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5cepv3$469@news.digifix.com> References: <5cde3l$ik8@boursy.news.erols.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: <5cde3l$ik8@boursy.news.erols.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 On 01/25/97, Robert Lutwak wrote: >Hi. > >I'd like to write a Mail.app bundle. > >Can somebody point me to some documentation to get started ? > Documentation? Bwaahhh ha ha ha.. sorry, but its not documented... Grab the current source for EnhanceMail from the ftp.next.peak.org archive. Thats probably the best reference. -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "/usr/lib/libposix.a is out of date" -- why/what/help? Date: 25 Jan 1997 23:30:30 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5ceml6$mjl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <199701250752.CAA07705@nerc.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu In article <199701250752.CAA07705@nerc.com>, luomat@peak.org wrote: > "ld: table of contents for archive: /usr/lib/libposix.a is out of > date; rerun ranlib(1) (can't load from it)" > Why did this happen, how can I fix it, what does it mean, did > something break (if so, is it bad?) I got that after I applied that big patch for NS 3.3 that came out last spring. (I think.) I had to download libposix.a off their FTP site, and I think it worked after that. I don't know what causes it. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsout1.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.aros.net!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 05:33:02 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5bv02e$r6r@news.xmission.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22116 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55077 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182828 comp.sys.mac.system:194716 jinx6568@sover.net (Chris Johnson) wrote: > [...] the > GNU implementations were less prone to being dumb hacks... > > Thus, I am less interested in finding out how you feel about it as I am > in asking Garance whether the standard NeXT stuff bears more resemblance > to the GNU stuff than the dumb hacks. I suspect it must resemble the GNU > or the unix-savvy NeXTians would be less confident. So, Garance, is it so? NeXT seems to have used GNU stuff where they can. Some things are a little bit out of date, though, and the UNIX propellerheads would really like to see them updated. But, yes, there's a _lot_ of GNU under the hood. And this certainly seems to be a good thing. gcc, gnutar, gzip, gnumake, and more...without the GNU tools, you wouldn't have a NeXT. :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsout1.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.aros.net!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep game development Date: 20 Jan 1997 05:31:53 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 142 Message-ID: <5bv009$r6r@news.xmission.com> References: <5btm97$i2m@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) "Lawson English" wrote: > Erik M. Buck said: > >A direct to screen API does exist for NeXTstep but it is not portable for > >obvious reasons to other OpenStep/Hardware combinations. > > That is very strange. The Mac has always allowed direct-drawing to the > video buffer via an API that is consistent with all video hardware that > works on the Mac, regardless of who makes it. > > Apple is even making it cross-platform as part of its Games Sprockets, > so that it will work with Windows 95. Before I begin, this is an area where Apple technology, IMHO, probably exceeds NeXT technology, and so there will be a blending in of Apple's technology. Why is NeXT behind in this area? Look at the size of the company and then the market segments they have targeted and you realize that doing something for game developers would have wasted precious resources NeXT needed to put elsewhere. It is a matter of business sense and priorities. (Not that NeXT has ever really been guilty of good business sense, but this is one case where I think they did the right thing, even though, as a game developer myself, I sort of wish it had been different.) You've got a few things at play here. First, NeXT never designed their systems for games. The fact that DPS is fast enough to support them and the fact that the power of the development system makes it nice for game developers are sheer happenstance and not in there by design. Remember how closed the first Macs were? Jobs tried to keep the NeXT boxes closed that way, too. This arrogance of "my way is the bast" pervaded into the access of the screen--"you WILL use DPS". When it came time to do NEXTIME, it was found that video direct to screen could be more efficiently done if you bypassed DPS (which is no surprise--you want to blast bits to the screen, not have DPS doing all sorts of transformations on them). So along comes Interceptor, a way to bypass DPS. But, NeXT being arrogant as they are didn't make it public and they used various reasons (most already discussed here) to justify that action. Probably one of the real reasons behind it was the fact that the API was not originally designed to be cross platform or particularly portable. Not was it ever designed for public consumption. In fact, Interceptor as it exists today will probably never be made public. My suspicion is that something _like_ the Interceptor, probably using Apple's technology for this, will become the API for game developers. Given the mass market of Apple, _something_ will have to be made available! If they don't, then game developers will figure out how to bypass (read: hack around) DPS and then you'll get a very "non-NeXT" piece of software. What I mean by that is this: Because of DPS, any NeXT app will work on any machine running OPENSTEP. No matter what video hardware is used. It "just works." That is the "NeXT way". Now, if you write to the metal, and you don't make video routines that work on *every* possible video configuration, then somewhere down the road you'll hit the situation where the user has to go to the control panel and change the bit depth and/or screen resolution before they can run a particular program. This is one thing about WinXX that is particularly odious to me--I want to run in 1600x1200 and don't want to have to change that every stinking time I want to play such and such a game! And I don't want to have to drop to 256 color mode, either. I prefer using 16 bit (or better) true color mode! So, NeXT wants to avoid this situation and they way they did it is to force you to go through DPS, which will adjust for *any* hardware you throw at it, assuming you've got the device driver. Well, the arrogance here is that NeXT is saying that they can do it better than you can, so that's why you don't get Interceptor. [Fact is, in most cases this is true, but that doesn't make it any less arrogant IMHO.] The non-portable part of Interceptor, as I see it, isn't a cross platform problem but rather a problem with needing code for every possible video configuration out there (or risk annoying people by forcing them to use the video config you deign to provide). Of course, making code that will do this multi-format buffer writing and so on and making it faster than the highly optimized code for the same purpose that already exists in DPS is a tall order. Many will try to use this sort of an API and end up with code that only equals DPS in proformance or, perhaps is worse. Some will do better, but the speed gains will be on the order of a 10% gain at best, given the results of people I've talked to who have used Interceptor. That said, if you make your imaging buffers for your game such that they match the screen's video layout (you can query the AppKit to get that info) then you can bypass most of DPS since it will recognize that it can just memcpy() your buffer to the screen. That's what most of my games do--build the buffer and draw it using my own code [and often DPS compositing, which is very fast since it is almost a simple memcpy()] and then tell DPS to blast it on out. And it is very fast! Of course, having written that code, it is almost Interceptor-ready at that point, since all Interceptor will let me do is blast my pixmap to the VRAM myself instead of asking DPS to do it... So, summary: you can build the pixmaps without DPS. Interceptor lets you do the memcpy instead of asking DPS. You may get as much as a 10% speed increase because your code can be micro-optimized over DPS by not needing to handle certain generic cases. BUT, look at what you lose: (a) easy multiple screen support. My games can be played by having a window straddle a screen and have half in 32 bit color and half in 4-bit monochrome, and _I_ didn't have to write code to deal with that-- it just works. (b) remote screen support. By bypassing DPS, you can't NXHost quite as easily, so running an app and displaying it on a remote screen isn't trivial to do any more. DPS is what does all the work there, and bypassing it will hurt. (c) automatic support of any bit depth, buffer layout, and planar/meshed configurations, without you having to worry about them. Of course, for a _game_ maybe those things are _worth_ giving up to give a truly state of the art experience, and it is for the developer, not NeXT or Apple, to decide. DPS is good enough to support many games, so developers can make use of it should they want, but there are cases where the advantages of DPS are moot and writing to the metal just makes more sense. Well, anyway, keeping the Interceptor API private may have worked in a small marketplace that can't support development of entertainment software, BUT in a mass market, the game folks are going to go to the metal, and NeXT/Apple can't prevent that. They'll always feel they can do better than NeXT/Apple--and in some cases they are right. So, in order to avoid the situation I ranted about above, it seems NeXT/ Apple will have to provide an API to bypass DPS--for those who want to--whether it is justified or not that developers do so. What I expect to see is something with Interceptor's ability to bypass DPS but with a better API, probably resembling the features of what Apple already has. (ie, a melding of technologies). As a game developer, the possibilities are exciting, and I hope this isn't all just wishful thinking. I've been wrong before, but I really, really hope this is one of the times I'm right. :-) -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.maz.net!unlisys!cs.tu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!swidir.switch.ch!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mult. Inh. in Objective C (Was: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 19 Jan 1997 21:58:11 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5bun03$ett@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <1997Jan19.121152.449@prim.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11159 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3746 comp.sys.next.programmer:22118 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Jan-97 Re: Mult. Inh. > in Objective.. by Dave Griffiths@prim.demo > > Obj-C by itself is pretty useless, you need at least either the Object or > > NSObject class. The latter came into being, what, two years ago? Not sure > > what the Gnu people are doing, but that might constitute a third version. > My understanding is that the GNUstep people are going to create an > OpenStep-compliant implementation which will be freely available under > the GPL. > And no, I don't speak for them, so if anyone from that project wishes to > confirm and/or amplify and/or correct me, please do so. :-) Your understanding is correct. To the original poster: GNU's base class is NSObject. It used to be Object, but they've changed things over so that everything inherits from NSObject now. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!news.asu.edu!sugee From: sugee@imap2.asu.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Cost of a NeXT Web Site? Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:17:17 GMT Organization: Arizona State University Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5boc6t$4dn@news.asu.edu> References: <5bjnet$b79@news.asu.edu> <5bk8vv$3im@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: general1.asu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] P.S. I can understand people being a bit tight lipped about this. However, if I am able to get a survey or cross-section, this would give me a fair idea I think. Scott Anguish (sanguish@digifix.com) wrote: : On 01/15/97, sugee@imap2.asu.edu wrote: : > : >I doubt that many advocates and customers like Chylser, CyberSlice, : >Nissan, and etc. as the list goes on, will argue about the merits of : >using NeXT's Web technologies for deploying their Web sites. We have all : >heard plenty and are proud of what is being accomplished. : > : >However, what I haven't heard anything about, something which curiously : >dawned on me recently and after reviewing what some of these folks are : >doing, is the cost of implementing and deploying these Web Sites. Can : >anybody provide approximate costs or actual figures of sites like these? : >I do respect people's anonymity. : > : Thats likely not something that you're going to have much luck : finding out, the spectrum is pretty wide there. : There are some WebObjects projects like Stepwise (a : NEXTSTEP/OpenStep product registry) that are based on EOF and WOF and it : took perhaps 20-40 hours to implement. (The back end OpenStep UI has : probably taken about as long). Of course I've re-written it a number of : times now so thats a rather poor example. : I've written sample catalog applications in WebObjects in a matter : of a weekend. : However I know of _much_ larger scale projects that have been in : development for 6-8 months with a pretty good team of people on it (4-6).. : : -- : Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS : sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!sn.no!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!132.175.109.6!news.sandia.gov!nntp.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Mystery bug from hell Date: 17 Jan 1997 11:06:19 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 109 Message-ID: <5bnmfb$7q1@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I've got a bug that depends on the order in which I declare two fields in a global structure variable. My hunch is that I'm doing something wrong when declaring global varibles. Everything works when I declare a structure like this: typedef struct { char recordFD; char Field_1; char Field_2; } menu_struct; But the bug occurs when I declare it like this: typedef struct { char recordFD; char Field_2; char Field_1; } menu_struct; I have had wierd problems before from variables declared outside of a method's interface. But I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Here is a sketch of the program structure, in 3 abbreviated files: A header file, "global.h" is imported into all the other source code files: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- #import typedef struct { char recordFD; char Field_2; char Field_1; } menu_struct; void Assign_with_Function (); extern menu_struct m; ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- A file "Controller.m" contains the GUI methods, and has the bug: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- #import "Controller.h" #import "global.h" menu_struct m; /* Home of the declaration */ @implementation Controller - mainMethod:sender { Assign_with_Function(); /* Assigning through a function call works fine */ [self Assign_with_Method:self]; /* Assigning through a method gives the bug */ return self; } - Assign_with_Method:sender { printf("m.Field_1 = %c, m.Field_2 = %c\n", m.Field_1 , m.Field_2); /* produces: m.Field_1 = sprintf(&m.Field_1, "y"); printf("m.Field_1 = %c, m.Field_2 = %c\n", m.Field_1 , m.Field_2); /* produces: m.Field_1 = y, m.Field_2 = sprintf(&m.Field_2, "y"); printf("m.Field_1 = %c, m.Field_2 = %c\n", m.Field_1 , m.Field_2); /* THE BUG!! Now you get : m.Field_1 = return self; } @end ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The function "Assign_with_Function()" is defined in its own file "Assign.c", and works fine: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- #include "head.h" void Assign_with_Function () { sprintf(&m.Field_1, "y"); sprintf(&m.Field_2, "y"); } ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- The bug is that the variable "m.Field_1" loses its assigned value when "m.Field_2" is assigned. Any tips will be GREATLY appreciated. ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!ais.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 22:16:20 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 97 Message-ID: <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50140.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22121 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55092 comp.sys.mac.system:194747 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182880 Blake Stone wrote: > > Alan Lovejoy (alovejoy@concentric.net) wrote: > > > With the CLI tools under Unix, sending a message in C is a one-liner: > > > > > > system("echo 'This is the contents of the message.^D' | mail -s 'My > > > Subject' ''"); > > > The same could be done in C without using the system() > > function. But it would be ugly and awkward by comparison. > > However, the fault lies both with C and with the standard C > > library. > > There is no inherent fault of C or C++ that would make this > awkward. I said "by comparison." Let's see: #include ... MailTool *mt; mt = new MailTool; mt->sendMessage("", "MySubject", "This is the contents of the message."); free(mt); ... In my personal opinion, it's more awkward "by comparison." Your mileage may vary. > The fact that the standard C library doesn't include a > cross platform standard mail API isn't exactly unique. Very few > standard language libraries do. Agreed. > > In some other programming language, such as Smalltalk (hey, you > > knew this was coming, right?), coding the above could be as > > simple as: > > > > MailTool > > sendMessage: 'This is the contents of the message.' > > withSubject: 'My Subject' > > to: ' > Whereas in Objective-C this becomes unbearably complicated? > > [ MailTool sendMessage: "This is the contents of the message." > withSubject: "My Subject" > to: "" ] ; Hey, I didn't disparage **Objective-C** in any way! In fact, I like the language. I hope it becomes more widely available thanks to Rhapsody. However, I should point out that the above Smalltalk code can be typed in to any pane of any window (in the Smalltalk IDE) that accepts text input. Once typed in, it can be executed just by selecting it using the mouse, and then picking "do it" from the operate menu associated with that text pane. > ... both examples assume that somebody has provided the > hypothetical MailTool API, which AFAIK isn't a standard piece of > either language. Well, the "MailTool" class would be about two hundred lines of code in VisualWorks Smalltalk (roughly 30 methods). About 4 hours work to get fully tested and debugged. I would expect Objective-C in OpenStep to be roughly the same. In the case of C, however, multiply those numbers by a factor of 10. > > If it were this simple in C (for everything, not just sending > > mail), then perhaps the system() function would be used much > > less. > > Yes, it's true, if there were an API function or method for every > conceivable purpose life would be very easy. There isn't. There > probably will never be. In the mean time, the system() function > can be VERY handy if you know that your target system fully > supports the tools you intend to use. Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:21:32 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 23 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5boces$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 17 11:21:32 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22122 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55107 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182910 comp.sys.mac.system:194782 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5bn20b$lmn@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art > Isbell) wrote: > > > As has been stated on several occasions, OPENSTEP programs aren't > > *required* to use Unix shell utilities. > > Yes I know, but also look at the many examples of those that _do_. We probably wouldn't have these examples to look at (and more importantly, *use*) if these shell utilities weren't available *and* their functionality wasn't duplicated in functional or class APIs. You made the point that if all the functionality of shell utilities were available in function or class libraries, then these shell utilities wouldn't be necessary for apps to use. This is a valid point, but one which hasn't been achieved yet. It's a worthy goal, but until that happens, don't rip out the shell utilities just to save a few MB of cheap disk space. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 17 Jan 1997 17:28:44 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5bocsc$kft@dfw-ixnews11.ix.netcom.com> References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 17 11:28:44 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22123 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55108 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:182911 comp.sys.mac.system:194785 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Seeing as OpenStep runs over NT, > it's demonstratable that you can rip out ALL the Unix utils and end up > with a working system. But you and I don't know whether OPENSTEP/Mach relies on Unix shell utilities and whether OPENSTEP/NT replaces this reliance with DOS utilities that are available under NT (probably not likely considering the paucity of functionality available with DOS utilities under NT compared with the richness Unix includes). OPENSTEP isn't a total self-contained cocoon. It depends on functionality offered by the underlying operating system. If you start ripping out this functionality, you may break things. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 is planning on the Unixness is clear > from Hancock and Amelio's comments. It sounds like by the time of > the unified release, the GUI will be much more familiar to Mac users > than NeXT users, certainly more than cleaning some rough edges. > The question is whether the de-unixizing will be cosmetic or deeper. > As someone who's life would be better with grep on my hard disk, I > hope that such features will still be accessible if you want to use > it, but I'm far from certain. I agree that they face time pressure > but they also face pressure from current Mac users to produce a > system which is at least familiar. Given Apple's limited time, I think it's possible to make a good guess as to how they will handle this issue without mucking around in the BSD sources. They don't even need a programmer to do it, either: all they need to do is remove Terminal.app from the default installation for Rhapsody, and UNIX is immediately invisible to the user. As far as the user is concerned, it won't even exist as far as they know. Of course, they'll need programmers to provide GUI equivalents of any remaining gaps in system administration, but we knew they were going to do that anyway, right? So the only question is how to keep Mac users from freaking out when they accidentally double-click on Terminal.app: [simple: make it an optional install.] I believe that this course of action would be the absolute best use of Apple's resources in this vein. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 20 Jan 1997 15:53:39 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5c04e3$gh9@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5bu93k$ka6@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22139 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55159 comp.sys.mac.system:194890 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183038 In article <32E30DB4.7126@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy wrote: >Yes, the system() function is a necessity in today's world. > >I think the goal of Rhapsody (and all Unixes) should be to continuously >make it less so over time. Perhaps one day... Why? -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 17 Jan 1997 23:00:23 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5bp0a7$ouv@darla.visi.com> References: <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b8scv$6ue@darla.visi.com> <5bkh7r$big@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22147 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55190 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183091 comp.sys.mac.system:194921 Chris Johnson (jinx6568@sover.net) wrote: : Here is a serious question- how prevalent _is_ bytestream manipulation : in the standard Mac software base? I'd imagine pretty common. See below. : : Certainly something like an IRC program lends itself to bytestream : manipulation. It is just possible that things like video editors _can_ : operate on bytestreams though clearly there is non-linear stuff you could : do that begins to touch on other ways of handling data. What's a video editor? A program that deals with a video stream. cat foo.avi |avi2mpeg | mpegscale 0.7 > foo.mpeg I'm not saying that's better or worse than a graphical interface, but i can see where it'd be useful. : On the other hand, how does one abstract a Photoshop CMYK image in : layers with a selection outline on the cyan plane that is being used to do : a feathered blur? I think, though I could be wrong, that even with : databases and spreadsheets the linkages of something like ClarisWorks are : stepping past the ability of a single byte stream to describe what is : going on. This is the reason we have applications and the clipboard, or on NEXTSTEP, services. Select a square of a bitmap in, say, NXPaint, or something, and do Services -> Photoshop -> Gaussian Blur.. It'd be good. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:32:12 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32DFFDEC.74E@steeldriving.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: jon@steeldriving.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22148 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55191 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183092 comp.sys.mac.system:194923 William Raphael Hix wrote: > > Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: > : Why, because they may be useful? :) > > Example, does the existance of tar, a reasonably able backup utility with > a really unfriendly UI, make companies like Alladin or Dantz who make backup > software more or less eager to port to Rhapsody? I think less likely, > because the number of potential buyers for Stuffit is reduced by the > existance of tar and freeware extentions. There's a Mac program that handles tar, that was free (I think). Did Dantz or Aladdin die out when that came out, about 5 years ago? -- Jonathan W. Hendry jon @ exnext . com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news.uoregon.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!dsinc!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:53:05 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 30 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22149 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55192 comp.sys.mac.system:194924 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183093 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 16-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > > Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, > > WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced > > 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix > > Read it carefully, I was taling about calling these things from the > command line, not the command line itself or using it as a person. IE, > programs should not have to call things by "pretending" to typing in CLI > commands. Sure. That's why the kernel provides a system call API. But that's not what you're arguing about-- you seem to be claiming that it is wrong for a program to execute a CLI utility to perform some task. And that's silly. Why don't you show me how you'd use system calls on any OS you'd like to send email? With the CLI tools under Unix, sending a message in C is a one-liner: system("echo 'This is the contents of the message.^D' | mail -s 'My Subject' ''"); -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:09:46 -0500 From: dea@astral.magic.ca (Don Andrachuk) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Message-ID: References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> <5c4rhc$o1k@ccpnws.in2p3.fr> Organization: DEA Systems Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.4 NNTP-Posting-Host: avernus17.magic.ca Lines: 26 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!news.uni-hamburg.de!news.dkrz.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!arlut.utexas.edu!news.eden.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.168.54.138!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!news.total.net!dea Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22150 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55194 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183104 comp.sys.mac.system:194932 In article , jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote: >In article <5c4rhc$o1k@ccpnws.in2p3.fr>, mullere@in2p3.fr (Eric Muller) wrote: > >| Bill Bumgarner (bbum@friday.com) wrote: >| (some stuff deleted) >| : If anything, Aladdin should release a version of Stuffit that can be >| : used from the command line... I'd certainly pay for a tool that give me >| : random access to my archives, a full-featured GUI w/drag-n-drop, and a >| : comparably featured command line utility. >| >| If you use MPW you can have the Stuffit tools, they come with Stuffit Deluxe. > >But the v3.5 tools, at least, are incomplete (I don't have StuffIt 4): >can't add to an existing archive, can't extract fewer than all the files >from an archive, can't even list the contents of an archive. *All* of those things are possible with version 4. Not only that, but Aladdin's True Finder Integration control panel provides these features completely transparently at the Finder. -- Don Andrachuk DEA Systems #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Compiler version in newest OS? Date: 27 Jan 1997 15:08:08 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5cigco$bou@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 My understanding is that NeXT's compiler (cc) is comparable (derived from?) some version of the gnu c compiler. I have NS3.2/3.3 Developer, and am wondering whether the compiler that comes with 4.0 (or are we up to 4.1?) is comparable to a more recent gnu compiler. A version number would answer my question. Is it 2.7.2? Thank you for the information. Randy Jackson -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Concerning Function Overloading in Obj-C.(Re: Multiple Inheritance) Date: 27 Jan 97 09:50:44 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5ccaka$n27@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-12.access.one.net In-reply-to: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu's message of 25 Jan 1997 01:52:58 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11161 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3756 comp.sys.next.programmer:22152 In article <5ccaka$n27@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) writes: In article , jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) wrote: > Can't we just pass the parameter as an id object and then do a > switch based on the object type? No, the object type isn't an ordinal. You can't switch on it, just like you can't switch on strings. I know this will get me in trouble, but ... you shouldn't be switching on the class/type of an object in any case. That's the reason you use message dispatch (so the runtime does the switch for you). For those few times when it really is cleaner to do an explicit switch, if()...elseif() clauses aren't _too_ painful. [This does totally ignore the problem or match-ordering. If B subclasses A, what do you do when your switch switches on both A _and_ B?] :-), -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!gail.ripco.com!news.tds.net!aumi1-a12.ccm.tds.net!user From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.lang.pascal.mac,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.arch.embedded,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:33:00 -0500 Organization: Metrowerks Lines: 87 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: aumi1-a12.ccm.tds.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:59740 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3757 comp.lang.pascal.mac:4687 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10668 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20427 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5233 comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:2215 comp.arch.embedded:15204 comp.lang.java.programmer:31923 comp.sys.next.misc:24860 comp.sys.next.programmer:22153 METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY CodeWarrior(R) To Be Hosted On Sun Microsystems(R)' Solaris(TM)-based UNIX(R) Workstations AUSTIN, Texas--January 27, 1997--Metrowerks Inc. (NASDAQ: MTWKF, TSE/ME:MWK), one of the world's leading providers of software development tools, today announced that it had signed a letter of intention to acquire the principle assets of The Latitude Group, Inc., of Mountain View, Calif. Latitude's principle assets include a porting library which allows Mac(TM) OS applications to be ported to UNIX-hosted operating systems, including Sun Microsystems' Solaris 2.3+, Silicon Graphics(R)' IRIX(TM) 5.2+ and Hewlett-Packard(R)'s HP-UX(R) 9.03+. The Latitude porting libraries redirect Mac OS commands to the target operating system, with a UNIX library containing a portable implementation of the Mac OS API at its core. Metrowerks will also take over providing the Latitude porting technology to The Latitude Group, Inc.'s existing clients already under contract. Metrowerks intends to use the Latitude porting library to port CodeWarrior to run on Sun Microsystems' Solaris-based UNIX workstations in order to offer this platform as a host for embedded systems development. Sun's Solaris-based UNIX workstations are widely used by embedded systems programmers worldwide. The Latitude porting libraries will be incorporated in a new product, CodeWarrior Latitude. CodeWarrior Latitude will continue to support the UNIX-hosted operating systems outlined above. Metrowerks also plans to extend CodeWarrior Latitude to enable the port of Mac OS applications to run on Rhapsody, Apple's Next Generation OS. This will allow Metrowerks' existing clients to more easily port their existing applications to Rhapsody. As part of the agreement between Metrowerks and The Latitude Group, Inc., David Hempling, president and CEO of The Latitude Group, Inc., will join Metrowerks as the technical lead for CodeWarrior Latitude. Mr. Hempling was a co-founder of Quorum Software Systems Inc., which created Latitude. "The Latitude porting technology offers Metrowerks a great opportunity to move CodeWarrior to UNIX," said Jean Belanger, chairman and chief executive officer. "By offering embedded systems versions of CodeWarrior on Windows, Mac OS and, now, UNIX, our embedded story will be more compelling than ever. Implementing support for Rhapsody in CodeWarrior Latitude will allow Mac OS developers to move their applications to Apple's Next Generation OS much faster than would otherwise be the case." Pricing and Availability Metrowerks plans to ship CodeWarrior Latitude in the summer of 1997. CodeWarrior Latitude will include all available targets in one library package and will sell for $399. UNIX-hosted versions of CodeWarrior for embedded development will be available in late 1997. About Metrowerks Founded in 1985, Metrowerks develops, markets and supports a complete line of programming tools for building applications for a number of operating systems intended for use on desktop computers or embedded systems, including Mac(TM) OS, Windows(R) 95, Windows NT(TM), PlayStation(TM) OS, BeOS(TM) and Palm OS(TM), running on a number of microprocessors including 68K, PowerPC(TM), MIPS(TM) and x86 microprocessors. Metrowerks' CodeWarrior products are used by over 65,000 registered users in 70 countries. Additional information on Metrowerks and its products is available via e-mail at "info@metrowerks.com", from our web site at "http://www.metrowerks.com", or by calling (800) 377-5416 or (512) 873-4700. ### Metrowerks, the Metrowerks logo and CodeWarrior are registered trademarks of Metrowerks Inc. Apple and Macintosh are registered trademarks, and Mac is a trademark, of Apple Computer, Inc. Windows and WindowsNT are registered trademarks or trademarks of Microsoft Corp. in the United States and other countries. All other company and product names may be registered trademarks or trademarks of their respective companies/holders, and are hereby recognized. Statements in this press release regarding CodeWarrior Latitude are forward looking statements that involve risks and uncertainties, including successful and timely development of CodeWarrior Latitude and customer acceptance of the product. -- METROWERKS Ron Liechty "Software at Work" MWRon@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com/about/people/rogues.html#mwron #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: WM Inspector Question... Date: 27 Jan 1997 15:27:00 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 7 Message-ID: <5cihg4$fsr@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <5cgjaq$9g7@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: logic@friley253.res.iastate.edu In <5cgjaq$9g7@news.iastate.edu> ??? wrote: > Hello all, > I have a simple question: I would like to have a bitmap (on > top of a button) in my WM Inspector Panel. Add the image to the images suitcase in IB. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:36:08 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5c3ltv$ljg$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22155 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55210 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183143 comp.sys.mac.system:194991 In article <5c3ltv$ljg$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > I don't think that's the way you've been coming across, and while I don't > have an article to quote, I do seem to remember you advocating specifically > that things like access to the CLI and the Unix utilities be removed > entirely. From _my_ machine, yes. From _your_ machine? What the heck do I care? > I don't think there's really a problem with a shared library that impliments > the same functionality as the unix CLI tools. Well good. > I don't think anyone has said > "you shouldn't do that", I think they've been saying either: > > a) that's fine, but don't take away what I've already got, or > b) why reinvent the wheel a) I don't want to. b) because there are better (way better) wheels. > I presonally don't subscribe to the latter.. sometimes in order for your > wheels to work with the next generation of carts/wagons/cars/etc, you need to > reinvent them. Just don't take away/break what is already there. That's my point all along. And in some cases you have to break code, Apple just did by buying NeXT after all. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:34:10 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183144 comp.sys.mac.system:194997 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55211 comp.sys.next.programmer:22156 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > mv, rm, and so forth-- those generally don't do much besides parse the > command line and execute the appropriate system call. What a concept! > That API doesn't exist right now. You don't say. Huh. > Apple does not have the time to create such an API Ever? > I also question whether they can duplicate all of > the functionality without having to undergo years of user feedback and > debugging-- and Unix has undergone decades worth of testing. NT did, took about three years. > OpenStep is another evolutionary step along the road towards the great > Mecca in which good programs and reliable operating systems are > available to all computer users. Exactly, I propose nothing more than the next obvious step. > The existance of OpenStep does not mean that Rhapsody can dump the Unix > CLI utilities without breaking far too many things (as I've explained in > previous articles). Once again, the Unix utilities cannot be an > optional part of Rhapsody without Apple having to replace that > functionality with something else. What exactly do you think I've been calling for in this endless thread? > NT provides a POSIX-compliant environment, does it not? POSIX, or > S/VID, or one of those standards defines POSIX-compliant command-line > utilities which are precisely the ones shipped with modern Unices (and > are largely backwards-compatible with the BSD 4.3 utilities). None of which appear to be on either my NT server or workstation. > make, sh, perl, diff, awk, sed, lex, yacc, grep, tar, cc, ld, as, emacs, gdb? Analogues of all of these already exist on the current Mac OS. In many case, the exact code exists, tar and emacs come to mind, and many others use grep, BBEdit for instance. Things like make, cc and yacc are definitely not needed as they come as a part of a single IDE, the product being greater than the sum of it's parts. Perl is a particularly interesting one, because you can download MacPerl from the net for free. It takes the Perl scripts and it in turn generates AEvents for other applications, allowing Perl to do things on the Mac that you can't do under Unix (selecting cells in a live spreadsheet would be an example). So, all of these exist. Next set... > Or what about system daemons like inetd, sendmail, netinfod, telnetd, ftpd? Why one would wish to telnet to anything these days is beyond me, they all seem to be examples of places where the distributed OOPS code has not caught up to their code. It's a good idea in the world of text based CLI's, but that's the point of this thread, why telnet in when you can simply call the object over the net? Oh well... As to the rest inetd is not really needed (if you want it it would be easy to create though, hmmmmm), netinfod I don't know (and my Sun box has no man page for), sendmail exists in many forms, and ftpd's functionality exists in countless numbers of Mac products. Keep going, let's see some more examples of these things that are so hard to write Apple couldn't possibly do it (even though they exist on every platform I know of). > Available evidence suggests that a lot of people implement popular Unix > tools like make, sh, diff, and so forth for non-Unix operating systems > since those tools are especially useful for developers and > administrators because they provide a large amount of functionality. Exactly, so let's make them even more standarized, modern and portable. Maury #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!ali.bc.ca!nobody From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk) Subject: Re: "/usr/lib/libposix.a is out of date" -- why/what/help? Message-ID: Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca Reply-To: allan@cetus.ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk) Cc: luomat@nerc.com Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc. Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:46:43 GMT References: <199701250752.CAA07705@nerc.com> X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Lines: 37 In comp.sys.next.programmer Timothy J Luoma wrote: > > > "ld: table of contents for archive: /usr/lib/libposix.a is out of > date; rerun ranlib(1) (can't load from it)" > > > Why did this happen, how can I fix it, what does it mean, did > something break (if so, is it bad?) > > sorry, I don't know anything about this stuff, just trying to > figure it out as I go along. > > can I rerun "ranlib" on /usr/lib/libposix.a without causing > problems in the future? It usually means that the creation time of the file has changed, probably due to it being copied from one place to another (using the -p flag with the cp command will prevent this). Since this is a system library, the only way this could have happened is if you were mucking around with the file or installed a patch which forgot to preserve the build time when overwriting the file. Try running ranlib on the file to rebuilt the table of contents and seeing if everything works OK. ciao -- Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca ALI Technologies Voice: 604.279.5422 x 317 Richmond, Canada Fax: 604.279.5468 * NeXT and MIME mail welcome * "I have never seen anything fill up a vacuum so fast and still suck." -- Rob Pike, commenting on The X Window System #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:19:29 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:194999 comp.sys.next.programmer:22158 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183147 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55213 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > What kind of program? A precompiled executable in the architechtures' > machine language, or an interpreted program which requires an > interpreter (ie, /bin/sh) and commands (ie, /bin/mount, /bin/find, > /bin/grep, /etc/inetd, /usr/lib/sendmail, etc). Both. > What type of program calls the OOPS shared library? All. > Gee-- lots of people disagree with Maury, therefore they must all be > confused and not understand what I mean. It couldn't possibly be the > case that Maury is wrong.... If this is so obvious, why do I still get "why do you hate Unix so much" questions in every reply? > Yes. I suspect I understand them better than you do. What is the > largest number of computers that you've had responsibility to administer? Hmmm, good question. About 100, it could have been about 150 but I never really counted. > No-- code written to use the Unix CLI utilities would be portable to all > users of Rhapsody Oh, now THAT'S a very interesting definition of portable. > Rhapsody can either be Unix-compatible, or it can have > Unix-compatibility as an optional add-on, which would mean that Rhapsody > would have to have some non-optional replacement for the Unix utilities > which would mean that some Rhapsody systems are guaranteed to not be > Unix-compatible (because they didn't have the optional add-on installed). Which is exactly what NT is offering and selling the pants off of Unix. > Making Unix an optional part of Rhapsody means that Apple has to rip > Unix out of Rhapsody and replace it with some non-optional alternative > that provides similar functionality. Your operating system won't do > anything if it can't boot, and Unix systems can't boot without the Unix > CLI utilities. Then fix it. I'm not talking about today. Or tomorrow. Someday. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:15:40 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 103 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55214 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183149 comp.sys.mac.system:195000 comp.sys.next.programmer:22159 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > That is simply not true for every problem. I never said anything about "every problem". Let's hear your percentage then. 80%? 90%? > Again, OO programming is one paradigm out of many. It is not always the > best solution to every possible problem, although it is very good for a > lot of problems. And thus if you're using it (which you are in OpenStep after all) then wouldn't you like consistency? Don't you _want_ to have access to the best solution for most problems? So why not have it? > I can use fork()/exec() (which is more controllable in terms of handling > stdin, stdout, etc that system()) on every POSIX-compliant operating > system and every Unix system around. But that's a TINY portion of the computer market. A better solution that's not platform dependant would allow easier access to the rest of the market. What's funny about this thread is that while people seem fond of telling me this is nothing more than a "religious" anti-Unix rant, it appears the arguments offered in return are exactly that indeed. What's everyone so afraid of? Work? > Such code is portable to more operating system/hardware plaform > combinations than any other system call API that is available today. > How is this not cross-platform? It is however, NOT portable out of the box to the vast majority of _computers_ in the world. There's nothing inherent in OpenStep that I can see that has such a limitation that could stop it from running over, say, Win3.1. > You do realize that the fastest and most efficient web servers are > written by preforking child servers-- such a design beats a > multithreaded web server in pretty much every regard. That's because few Unixen have fast threading services, a point well hashed out in other threads (of the message sort). > Nothing-- it's not terribly difficult at all. Why don't you understand > that almost every single point you've made in several articles, > including this one, have been wrong? You agree with most of them (3 out of 4 to be exact), yet they are wrong. Your logic escapes me. > 'I don't think this will mangle it at all. Quite the opposite in some > cases. If you want the shell utilities, click Custom Install, click > "Unix utilities". End of issue.' > > If the Unix CLI utilities are not shipped as a core element of the > operating system with _every_ copy of Rhapsody, then they will not > available on _some_ Rhapsody systems. > > Software currently available for Unix, including essentials such as the > system boot procedure (/etc/rc and friends) and networking and email > (machd, netinfod, nfsd, sendmail, telnet, ftp, etc) depends on those CLI > utilities. And the average Mac user will never have any need of them, and doesn't want to either. I've been running on the Mac for about 7 years now, never used any one of those, and most likely won't in the future either. Yet on the off chance that _someone_ might on _their_ machine, I have to install this stuff on _my_ machine. > Do you understand? No, you again make all this sound like a bad thing. > If you make Unix optional, Rhapsody will no longer be Unix-compatible > because you would have to replace the current Unix functionality with > something else that is not optional-- this is the case with OpenStep on > NT. Doing constitutes "ripping out Unix", since the operating system > would no longer be a Unix operating system. I see. So if I delete, say, grep, off of my hard drive, Unix stops working? > And guess what? Apple bought NeXT because "Apple needed a truly modern > operating system and NeXT had an exceptional operating system with > modern services and API's." This descibes OS certainly, but do you truly offer up grep as a paradigm of modern programming? > All of this to save $3 worth of disk space? No, to make... a) programming easier b) programming more consistent c) the system more portable d) the system easier to use But who want's any of those, eh? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!irz401!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!iway.fr!imaginet.fr!usenet From: pjb@imaginet.fr (Pascal Bourguignon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: BASIC on NeXT? Date: 27 Jan 1997 06:30:48 GMT Organization: ImagiNET Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5chi2o$gmm@belzebul.imaginet.fr> References: <5cebjo$h75$1@Venus.mcs.net> Reply-To: pjb@imaginet.fr (Pascal Bourguignon) NNTP-Posting-Host: 195.68.24.51 In article <5cebjo$h75$1@Venus.mcs.net> font@MCS.COM (Font) writes: > pbrown@ashkhabad.berkeley.edu (Paul R. Brown) writes: > > >In article , Glen Stewart wrote: > >>Anyway, I'd love to be able to do BASIC programming in UNIX. Does anyone > >>here know if there is such a compiler available? GCC seems to be just > >>about everywhere (even on the Mac68k port), but BASIC is what I really > >>prefer. > > >Well, if you *must*, then you have two choices. One is to write your > >own BASIC interpretter in C as an exercise (it's easy, really!), and > >the other is to grab the p2c distribution, a pascal -> c converter, > >which comes with just such a program. > > I seem to recall that porting the Bywater BASIC interpreter to > NEXTSTEP wasn't difficult, but I don't recall where the Bywater > BASIC interpreter can be found. However, there is a FreeBSD port of > it which should refer one to the archive site (check from > http://www.freebsd.org). > -- > font@mcs.net Wishes are like dishes. Here is the smallest basic interpreter I ever found on Usenet (it really works!): /*------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ #define O(b,f,u,s,c,a)b(){int o=f();switch(*p++){X u:_ o s b();X c:_ o a b();default:p--;_ o;}} #define t(e,d,_,C)X e:f=fopen(B+d,_);C;fclose(f) #define U(y,z)while(p=Q(s,y))*p++=z,*p=' ' #define N for(i=0;i<11*R;i++)m[i]&& #define I "%d %s\n",i,m[i] #define X ;break;case #define _ return #define R 999 typedef char*A;int*C,E[R],L[R],M[R],P[R],l,i,j;char B[R],F[2];A m[12*R],malloc (),p,q,x,y,z,s,d,f,fopen();A Q(s,o)A s,o;{for(x=s;*x;x++){for(y=x,z=o;*z&&*y== *z;y++)z++;if(z>o&&!*z)_ x;}_ 0;}main(){m[11*R]="E";while(puts("Ok"),gets(B) )switch(*B){X'R':C=E;l=1;for(i=0;i",'#');U("<=",'$');U(">=",'!');}d=B;while(*F=*s){*s=='"'&&j ++;if(j&1||!Q(" \t",F))*d++=*s;s++;}*d--=j=0;if(B[1]!='=')switch(*B){X'E':l=-1 X'R':B[2]!='M'&&(l=*--C)X'I':B[1]=='N'?gets(p=B),P[*d]=S():(*(q=Q(B,"TH"))=0,p =B+2,S()&&(p=q+4,l=S()-1))X'P':B[5]=='"'?*d=0,puts(B+6):(p=B+5,printf("%d\n",S ()))X'G':p=B+4,B[2]=='S'&&(*C++=l,p++),l=S()-1 X'F':*(q=Q(B,"TO"))=0;p=B+5;P[i =B[3]]=S();p=q+2;M[i]=S();L[i]=l X'N':++P[*d]<=M[*d]&&(l=L[*d]);}else p=B+2,P[ *B]=S();l++;}X'L':N printf(I)X'N':N free(m[i]),m[i]=0 X'B':_ 0 t('S',5,"w",N fprintf(f,I))t('O',4,"r",while(fgets(B,R,f))(*Q(B,"\n")=0,G()))X 0:default:G() ;}_ 0;}G(){l=atoi(B);m[l]&&free(m[l]);(p=Q(B," "))?strcpy(m[l]=malloc(strlen(p )),p+1):(m[l]=0,0);}O(S,J,'=',==,'#',!=)O(J,K,'<',<,'>',>)O(K,V,'$',<=,'!',>=) O(V,W,'+',+,'-',-)O(W,Y,'*',*,'/',/)Y(){int o;_*p=='-'?p++,-Y():*p>='0'&&*p<= '9'?strtol(p,&p,0):*p=='('?p++,o=S(),p++,o:P[*p++];} /*------------------------------------------------------------------------*/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!news.he.net!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Number of digits in setDoubleValue: Date: 27 Jan 1997 08:49:11 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5chq67$gdm@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Is there any way to control the number of digits displayed in a textField? I am calling: [fieldMatrix setDoubleValue:(double) value at:2]; and it gives at most 6 digits in the display. It also automatically drops to lower numbers of digits when it can. I don't see anything in /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/TextField.rtf that mentions control over digits printed. I would like to be able to fix the number of digits at the precision of the floating point number. Perhaps this has changed in OpenStep? -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:04:29 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22162 comp.sys.mac.system:195027 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55228 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183183 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Correct. A multiuser computer system has conventions for where you > should place common files (like applications, fonts, and other such > resources) which are supposedly intended for use by all users. Well that about says it all. Computers should not do what we tell them to, it should be the other way around and that's completely logical. FYI, the Mac allows you to stew most files around as you like, and has no problems finding them, running them etc. This is true for both mutiple and single user machines. > For that matter, single-user computer systems have some of those > conventions too-- what else did you think the special nature of the > "System folder" represents under MacOS? Something that should have been destroyed many moons ago. > Are you willing to accept empirical evidence from the real world as to > which of our respective definitions is more valid, or does that not > interest you? _empirical_? No. You wouldn't be either. > You're kidding, right? If this is actually true, (a) provide some > details 25 Macs of varying types on a mixture of Ether and LocalTalk bridged by a FastPath V. One PC XT (a real one) using LocalTalk and a modem to talk to a bank. Another 25 or so 386 PC's on (get this) ArcNet. Another set of 386's. Lots of Unix boxes of various types, an IBM mini (43 something) and several DEC minis (the largest a 6220). All sorts of software, backed by servers running on PathWorks. I handled the Macs and PC's, their software and their connection to the network and servers. > (b) why aren't you making any sense? I am, why don't you understand me? No one else seems to be having a problem understanding me. With the exception of one other post (the person's first that I can see) everyone seems to agree that a new core of utilities would be a great thing. > How can you possibly have "administered" a large network of computers > (presumably Macs) if you did not have some conventions for what was on > each computer and where such common functionality was to be located? The Mac cares not where the stuff is located. I had to replace a dead drive one time and rebuild it off the file server. I was surprised to find all the applications being installed into a subfolder of a subfolder in a "Personal" folder. Hey, worked for them. > How did you figure out how many licenses of various software packages > were needed? I counted. I tried some more "fancy" solutions like various network mappers/responders, but never found them to be all that useful. For the most part the machines didn't die too often, and when they did I'd get the hardware guys to replace anything that really died (drives and such) and I handled the rest including training. Even so it was so little work that the position was nulled, I moved on, and no one had to replace me. > The point was, I was showing a real-world example of roughly as many > Macs that did have a convention for filesystem layout as you stated that > you were familiar with which did not have such a convention. And this > refutes your attempt to claim that Macs in general do not have such > conventions. Har! It does not at all refute it, you're arguing the general from the specific! Really now. Hey, the guy that got me into Macs now works at a place with something like 500 desktops in a 50/50 ratio of Macs to PC's, lots of portables, a BIG network etc etc. They don't have any standards for file locations either. Counterexample to the specific. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.eiffel Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 08:48:00 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32ED2290.2DB3@acm.org> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> <32E6A101.7010@acm.org> <32E85082.37DE@acm.org> <5c9v18$95r@muller.loria.fr> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11163 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3761 comp.sys.next.programmer:22163 comp.lang.eiffel:14171 Dominique Colnet wrote: >Ian Joyner wrote: > |> Perhaps someone should encourage Metrowerks to get together with > |> an Eiffel compiler vendor or someone willing to write an Eiffel > |> compiler for CW. It sounds like they would be a really good match. > |> Having already written an Eiffel compiler in Pascal, I'm willing > |> to volunteer. > Yes, but it is now time to use Eiffel to write Eiffel compilers :-) True! But on the machine that I wrote the Eiffel compiler on, the compilation system was all done in Pascal, which included lexical analysis, parsing, intermediate code, optimization, code generation, implementation of lots of the stuff in the "Dragon book". Thus my Eiffel "Language Processor" is less than 30,000 lines of Pascal, which includes generating most of ELKS 95. And yes it does 90% of Eiffel, included all of Multiple inheritance with selects, generics, etc, etc, and is native code generating. But the compiler support stuff accounts for probably 200,000 lines worth. Who says you can't do serious stuff in Pascal? In another environment, I would do it in Eiffel. I can probably boast having the best Eiffel compiler 'not' on the market today! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!news From: mshores@iastate.edu Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: WM Inspector help... Date: 27 Jan 1997 14:28:09 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa Lines: 12 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5cie1p$qfv@news.iastate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: friley253.res.iastate.edu Summary: WM Inspector help... (using bitmaps) Keywords: WM Inspector image bitmap X-Newsreader: Kiwi [version .11] Hello all, I am not certain that my pervious message was posted correctly, so I will post it again. I am having a problem getting a bitmap to appear when I create a WM Inspector. I understand that it is a bundle, and therefore different from an app, but even when I link in the bitmap, it still won't appear. Does anyone know how the programmer(s) of the 'lib' WM Inspector did it? (Thier logo appears next to some copyright info in the lower left hand corner) Thanks! Matt #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Re: vgrind help? Problem solved! Date: 27 Jan 1997 15:02:05 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 71 Message-ID: <5cig1d$bm8@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: <5bltdk$ioq@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>?nus` <5cfv2r$lf6@papoose.quick.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu In-Reply-To: <5cfv2r$lf6@papoose.quick.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25058 comp.sys.next.programmer:22165 comp.sys.next.software:27683 Thank you Mr. Quick! Your response solved my vgrind problem. And here I thought big and little endian problems were mostly a thing of the past. Silly me. Randy J On 01/26/97, James E. Quick wrote: >In article <5bltdk$ioq@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, >Randy Jackson wrote: >>When I try to use vgrind, I get the following: >> >># vgrind area.cc >>pscat: trouble reading .ct file >>lpr: stdin: empty input file >># >> >> >>What do I need to do to so that vgrind works? > >Ahah . . . You did not mention what architecture or version you >are using but it sounds to me like you are on an intel box. The @?Correct assumption.@ >transcript font files are endian dependant, and I think that they >are compiled bigendian on the CD. What you need to do is rebuild >these fonts. > >This is complicated somewhat by the fact that the script used for >rebuilding includes a configuration script which hardcodes a path >specific to the original source environment, not the installation >environment. > >Try this: >cd /usr/lib/transcript/troff.font > >Modify the script fragment ./config so that: > PSLIBDIR=$REALPSLIBDIR > >Now move the current font directories out of the way since the build >script will not build a new font directory if the old one is in place. > mkdir old > for map in *.map > do $dir=`basename $map .map` > mv $dir old/ > done > >Now that you have moved the old font directories out of the way, >build new ones. > for map in *.map > do $dir=`basename $map .map` > ./addtroff.sh $dir $map > done > >Now if you are satified, you can now delete the old dir. >-- > ___ ___ | James E. Quick jq@quick.com > / / / | Private HealthCare Systems NeXTMail O.K. >\_/ (_\/ | Systems Integration Group (617) 895-3343 > ) | "I don't think so," said Rene Descartes. Just then, he vanished. > -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lowana.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Novice PB question Date: 28 Jan 1997 02:35:30 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5cjoli$lo0@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts16-3.homenet.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00075 Since NS 1.0, and from then until now, I have written c++ code on the next, without bothering with the GUI. I decided today to give Project Builder a try, so I followed the directions in Chapter 15 for Simple.app -- yes, I have problems with simple.app! When I get to the point of building the code, I get the error: invalid option -lang-objc But for the life of me, I don't see where I am specifying that option. Is there a default set of compiler options that PB calls, (I don't see CFLAGS defined in any of the three makefiles). Most importantly, what do I need to do to get past this problem? Thanks. Randy -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!sonybc!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!interaccess!usenet From: aconti@interaccess.com (Aaron J. Conti) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc Subject: miscTableScroll object in the MiscKit Date: Mon, 27 Jan 97 10:35:08 PST Organization: InterAccess, Chicago's best Internet Service Provider Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5cilns$ddn@nntp.interaccess.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: d73.nhe.interaccess.com Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.93.02 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22167 comp.sys.next.software:27685 comp.sys.next.misc:24865 I am trying to use the table scroll from the miscKit. So far, I have used it in a couple different programs. Every time that I have used it so far, it has only been for displaying information. This allows me to fill all of the fields in the table programatically. Now I need to use it to display a list of item and let the user fill in values in the second and third columns. I can't seem to figure out what I am not setting to allow the user to select a single cell as apposed to a row and enter data into the cell. Any information on how to do this (or if it is impossible) would be appreciated. Please respond by e-mail to prichard@isdinc.com. I don't have reqular news access and had to borrow somebody else's account for this. Peter Richardson prichard@isdinc.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!flight From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Emacs for OpenStep Date: 27 Jan 1997 16:55:31 GMT Organization: InterNetNews at News.BelWue.DE (Stuttgart, Germany) Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5cimm3$f03$1@news.belwue.de> References: <32E52CE3.1A0B@friday.com> <7x4tgay96w.fsf@burrow.muc.de> <32E779DF.2A65@friday.com> <32E97084.4C31@friday.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fenchurch.mathi.uni-heidelberg.de X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Bill Bumgarner (bbum@friday.com) wrote: : Hmmm... still crashing. : I'll have to go and ping the next-emacs porting list and see where their : efforts stand-- I'd much rather run 19.34 than 19.28 anyway. http://nice.ethz.ch/~chris/emacs.html and ftp://nice.ethz.ch/pub/emacs-for-ns/ Thanks to Christian Limpach, the Emacs-for-NS beta version is now based on GNU Emacs 19.34b. On the ftp site, you'll find a patch for OS. It's supposed to work. Gregor -- | Gregor Hoffleit Mathematisches Institut, Uni HD | | flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de INF 288, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany | | (NeXTmail, MIME) (49)6221 54-5771 fax 54-8312 | | PGP Key fingerprint = 23 8F B3 38 A3 39 A6 01 5B 99 91 D6 F2 AC CD C7 | #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:00:13 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c16dv$586@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22169 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183273 comp.sys.mac.system:195100 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55265 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Besides, which other platforms are you talking about besides NT? Last > time I checked, OpenStep on top of Unix was available for pretty much > every hardware platform available nowadays. I'm not talking about OpenStep, just OS's in general. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!nntp1.best.com!shellx!sams From: sams@best.com (Samuel G. Streeper) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Calling ObjC from C function... Date: 27 Jan 1997 18:44:29 -0800 Organization: BEST Internet Communications Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <32ec3ca9.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: shellx.best.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #6 (NOV) jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) writes: >if I'm using some code that is best done (or only done, in this case) >in C, how can I get back to objective C code. Here's my situation... There's no real problem with going back to objc syntax; From the BackSpace example: void timedEntryFunction (DPSTimedEntry timedEntry, double timeNow, void *theObject) { [(id)theObject doDistributorLoop]; } The real problem is that "self" is a hidden argument in all method invocations, so if you try this: myFunction() { [self doSomething]; } The compiler will not know what self is. Best way is probably to pass it in as an argument: myFunction(id self) { [self doSomething]; } Only other thing is to make sure the compiler is in objective-c mode, which it wouldn't be by default on a ".c" file, but it would be on a ".m" file. I just rename sources to make the right thing happen automatically, but you could turn it on with the appropriate compiler flag. (If memory serves, it's something like "-objc") cheers, -sam #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:38:42 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5bmjkk$p15@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5bp3f3$1j2@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <8mt0xGe00iV0I52lR_@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183288 comp.sys.mac.system:195105 comp.sys.next.programmer:22171 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55271 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Unix operating systems need Unix shells and Unix utilities to function. Current Unix OS's yes. Unix didn't support a GUI in the past either. Now it does. Are you proposing that because current Unix systems need these old command line utilities that every one from now on should rely on them too? Or do you think that no one should try to make it better? > Rhapsody needs to be a Unix operating system because Unix is a crucial > component that provides the operating system functionality that was > missing in MacOS which Apple believes people want. (And not just > current Mac users, either but _new_ users....). And so does NT. > It may well be true that most people don't ever want to use Unix > directly. That's why Apple choose to buy NeXT, since NEXTSTEP does the > best job of providing the functionality of Unix while still providing a > very user-friendly environment that allows normal users to do their work > without ever having to see or think about Unix _if_ they don't want to. Oh I agree. > But, if using Unix is so abhorrent to you, you have alternatives-- you > could stick with MacOS 7.x, or switch to Windows NT. I'm not saying Unix is bad Chuck, I'm saying it could be better. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:22:01 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5c46k6$ma0@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22172 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55272 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183289 comp.sys.mac.system:195107 In article <5c46k6$ma0@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) wrote: > Why you're wasting so much time advocating something that doesn't > exist and isn't likely exist in the near future. You might as > well advocate teleportation over automobiles for all the good > it's likely to do. Geee, there's a worldview I like: nothing's going to change, don't bother trying. I suppose I should waste my time on something more constructive? Smoking perhaps? > I would _love_ to see a complete OO paradigm used to completely > reinvent a modern operating system API Great! > I think that you are > hopelessly underestimating the effort involved. Perhaps, Be did it, then ported it to a new platform, then another, in three years. They had to do the hard part to, write a new GUI to go with it, their own kernal, and a new file system too. > Microsoft has > just begun the chore and even though they've got money to burn > they don't expect to be done any time soon. NT's running just fine actually. > You mean aside from your stating that it would make life easier > for developers and make the system more cross platform if they > were removed? Replaced. Replaced. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:40:47 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55273 comp.sys.mac.system:195108 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183290 comp.sys.next.programmer:22173 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Are you claiming that removing functionality does make programming > easier, or that you have not suggested removing functionality by making > the Unix utilities optional? Are you claiming that I have ever said anything even remotely like this? > An API stands for "application programming interface" and it refers to a > convention by which a software component is used by other software. The > Unix utilities have an API defined for their command line usage. OOPS API's. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:32:39 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55276 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183295 comp.sys.mac.system:195110 comp.sys.next.programmer:22174 In article <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk>, mmalcolm crawford wrote: > "The PC market doesn't want Unix any more than the Mac market does." So far so good. > I submit that Linux's success refutes this statement, and your subsequent > post does not alter this. What success? Can you provide solid numbers of any sort? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:44:27 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5c5dce$f0q@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22175 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55279 comp.sys.mac.system:195111 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183300 In article <5c5dce$f0q@ds2.acs.ucalgary.ca>, bstone@acs3.acs.ucalgary.ca (Blake Stone) wrote: > "In fact, I've been constantly and unwaveringly suggesting that > all of them should indeed be API's, when in the current case they > are not." Because I think this is the way the system should evolve? > I'm not sitting around waiting for it to happen. Instead, I > wrote the ThreadKit for OOing the threading APIs in Mach. Great! > wrote a standard object interface for card games, which became > the definitive NeXTSTEP Solitaire. Fab! > I wrote object interfaces to > hide the differences between CGI and ISAPI. Great! (what is the later BTW?) > I've translated the > object interfaces to DirectX to Delphi. I've written wrappers to > hide MAPI behind an object interface. Great, keep it up! > I'm making it better as fast as I can. I just don't expect to be > done any time soon. What have you been doing? Debating Unix users who think it's a stupid idea, impossible, unlikely or not important. You are apparently not one of them. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!spool.mu.edu!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:40:46 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E5F50A.2637@spvi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55281 comp.sys.mac.system:195113 comp.sys.next.programmer:22176 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183302 In article <32E5F50A.2637@spvi.com>, steve@spvi.com wrote: > OK.. so what happens when I get my shiny new GUI app that expects > 'system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... )' to work and the user neglected to > install 'tar'? This is the _point_ Steve. GUI apps should not have to call things like 'system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... )' to work, they should be able to call OOPS libraries to work, ones that work on any platform. If that OOPS library then turns around and calls 'system("tar cf - *.gif | mail .... )', hey, fine. But as soon as you _base_ your code on it you're less portable. > want to risk breaking so much code? I would think the whole spiel > compares in size (more or less) to a complete installation of any modern > office productivity suite. :-) Probably smaller in fact. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:42:18 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <5c1cb7$nhr@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22177 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55283 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183304 comp.sys.mac.system:195115 In article , jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) wrote: > Isn't forking preferable when you consider a multiprocessing system > that could toss the forked process off to another processor? There's no real difference actually, if the libraries are "correctly" written. All of the newer Apple code has been for a few years now. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.maz.net!unlisys!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!newshost.convex.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:55:06 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22178 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183308 comp.sys.mac.system:195118 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55285 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 16-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by William Raphael Hix@port > Donald R. McGregor (mcgredo@crl.com) wrote: > : 3. I think all the unix utilities oughta be in there, in their > : full glory and grime. > > The existance of a lot of Unix utilities in Rhapsody would be a > tremendous disincentive to some Mac developers to port their software > to the new OS. Umm, why? I'd really love to hear someone give a coherent explanation. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:27:12 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <32ED0190.3748A5A6@screaming.org> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <5c4as9$4m2@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22179 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183313 comp.sys.mac.system:195121 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55288 Maury Markowitz wrote: > Garance A Drosehn > > Note that I'm serious that I want the abilities which happen to be > > in the unix utilities, and I want Rhapsody released this year. > > Me too. I also want it to get better in the future. > > > you have an alternate source for all these utilities, one which > > will not delay Rhapsody, that might well be fine with me (depending > > on how good the replacement is, I guess). However, I think your > > position would be much more crediable if you could point at a > > specific alternate source for all these utilities. > > Hmmm, I don't know if I can, although Be provides many of them > in it's OS. This is true. Be provides them through a vanilla bash shell on a standard CLI. Be's limited POSIX support is enough to get many standard unix utilities to run. One can also write CLI programs using classes from Be's framework. The same is true for CLI programs on NeXTstep. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.york.ac.uk!rog From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Re: brk and sbrk Date: 27 Jan 1997 17:35:46 GMT Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5cip1j$aln@netty.york.ac.uk> References: <5c7pr0$4e6@crcnis3.unl.edu> Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.4) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22180 comp.sys.next.software:27689 On 23 Jan 1997 13:41:51 GMT, Rex Dieter wrote: > I'm involved in a software porting venture... the software at hand uses the > functions brk and sbrk. The NEXTSTEP man pages say these functions are not > supported. Are there any other functions available to provide similar > functionality? they might not be documented, but they are still there. if you're not worried about portability to non-mach-based openstep platforms, then i'd just go ahead and use them in the same way as usual. rog. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.istar.ca!news From: jsamson@istar.ca (Jean-Paul C. Samson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Communicating with Subprocesses (NSTasks) with NSPipes Date: 27 Jan 1997 17:45:25 GMT Organization: iSTAR Internet Incorporated Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5cipjl$li@news.istar.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-01.edm.istar.ca X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-10001-01 I've been trying to figure out how to create a subprocess and then communicate between the main and this child process in OPENSTEP. NSTask provides functionality for starting up a subprocess and connecting pipes to its standard input and output. However, in the main process I need to be able to watch the incoming pipe for data. NEXTSTEP used to have a DPSAddFD() function to have the Display PostScript server trigger a handling function when data was received via a file descriptor. This function no longer exists in OPENSTEP. I can find no documentation on NSPipes or NSFileHandles. The conversion scripts example uses the out-of-date and unavailable NSPosixFileDescriptor class to mimic the DPSAddFD() behavior. Does anybody know how I can achieve the equivalent to DPSAddFD() using NSPipes? -- -===================================================================- Jean-Paul C. Samson -=- jsamson@istar.ca -=- NeXTmail & MIME welcome -============- http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jeanpaul/ -=============- -===================================================================- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!news-admin From: Michael.Gentry@spammers.not.welcome Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 27 Jan 1997 19:33:02 GMT Organization: InternetMCI Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5civte$dd1@news.internetmci.com> References: <32E3A1E1.7BC@nowhere.com> <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E8F5E9.2620@nowhere.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mgentry.metro.mci.com In-Reply-To: <32E8F5E9.2620@nowhere.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00120-01 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11168 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3771 comp.sys.next.programmer:22182 On 01/24/97, Michael Hudson wrote: >I can think of another reason why C++ took off, rather than >Objective-C: >That looks nothing like C. >C++ code (unless it's very templatey) looks much like C. >I have never coded in pure C, but I'd say that the fact that C++ can >look like C must have made the transition less scary for many people. Funny, I know ANSI C quite well, and I think C++ looks quite intimidating and unlike C. I dabbled in C++ a little, thinking it was the "thing" to learn, and was quite intimidated and frustrated by it. For me, C++ was quite an unfriendly beast and seemed to promote the worst features of C through new and obscure syntax (not to mention adding it's own "bad" elements -- like method implementations in the interface). Objective-C was so easy to learn (a day or two, tops), I never had time to be intimidated or experience feelings of resentment. Instead, I was able to focus on OO concepts with a simple and rather ANSI C-like language (my opinion, I'm sure). - mrg (michael DOT gentry AT mci DOT com) -- "We love Java, but we believe in choice." - Brad Silverberg, Microsoft Corporation, December 1996 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:14:39 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 93 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22183 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55296 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183331 comp.sys.mac.system:195130 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > Sorry, perhaps I need to clarify - I'm not arguing about whether Unix > utilities _should_ be converted to OOP libraries. I'm telling you why > they _won't_ be so converted. I wouldn't be quite so sure personally. With the ability to drive the market one can do wonders. No one in the Unix community can really do this as it stands. Actually, they could, but they are spending time on other portions of the OS as it stands, like GUI implementation and such. Nothing wrong with that, programming costs money. > The secret, here, is that Unix has a very hard restriction on > communications at a very low level. For the most part, communication > is either via stream input, stream output, or command-line arguments. > Any program, to be useful, has to come in under that bar. For that > reason, I don't _have_ to understand the entire collection of Unix > utilities, I only have to understand those I use. Ok, with you so far. > For a 1:1 library which provided a suitable stream abstraction, things > would be just the same. On the other hand, a library which was that > faithful to the source would be almost useless. I think that's just about what this thread has been about actually. The problem is the lack of standardization at that stream level though, there are lots and lots of methods for solving the problem, which is the same problem as having none in this particular case. > For instance, take your directory-listing API. Under Unix, you > essentially end up with a stream of bytes. Very simple. With an API, > you'd want a stream of objects of some sort which would represent > files. From there you'd query the file objects for various info you > were interested in, probably using LISP mapcar style semantics. This > is already quite a bit more complicated than a stream of bytes. Only if you wish to display that as a list of bytes. I agree that it's not trivial to make the streams look like "old" streams from the old utilities, but it doesn't strike me as particularly difficult either (flattening objects isn't all that hard, the reverse is not so easy). Regardless it seems self-evident that it's harder to go the other way than back. The Mac does a fine job of streaming out text directories (try this: View by Name, Select All, Copy - now check your clipboard) when needed as well as offering a richer structure than ls when it's not. (Now one feature I'd love in the Finder would be the Be-like ability to change the filtering of the directory's contents in the window title bar) > Beyond that, though, you need to make certain that things work in > entire frameworks. For instance, the directory-listing API should > easily extend into the find(1) type API, and also into the > file-manipulation API, and file-access API, etc, etc. An API thus has > a significant amount of under-the-surface structure which makes > everything work together. I think the goal would be to make a system that gave you all the abilities and was not necessarily have backward compatibility as it's first concern - that would be the function of the wrappers. Many of the command line utilities (and the code base of the shell's themselves) seem to be overly concerned with string manipulation - great in CLI's, but useful all around for sure. I'm thinking of things like Perl's internal string stuff, grep, even one-offs like indent, cat etc. Aside from their interaction with the file system (like find or ls) most of these could easily be duplicated in a single string object, or a string object with an associated searching class(es). Where the commands do intersect with the file classes, some of the issue is solved by having the string like portions of the file system be strings. Now before anyone tells me how impossible (or even unlikely) this is, Be is doing it. Now. > That structure _will_ make the framework harder to understand. Any > specific operation is likely to be harder to understand, though once > you get the "hang" of it, you can probably do pretty well. But the > learning curve will necessarily be steeper than command-line Unix. I really don't believe this at all. For instance MacPerl gives you Perl on the Mac. It's Perl, and it works on the Mac's psuedo-OO file system. And Be takes it the next step from there. > [Keep in mind that we're talking an entire system of frameworks that > have to work together. Millions of lines, at a minimum, and I'd > expect the class count to be in the thousands - let alone the method > count!] Oh now here I really disagree, I think the resulting class structure would be quite small. Maury #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!128.100.1.3!utcsri!bc2cep!news From: jmpiuze@qc.bell.ca (Jean-Marc Piuze) Subject: [Q] Where can I find SYLK specifications X-Nntp-Posting-Host: renc02.qc.bell.ca Message-ID: Sender: news@on.bell.ca (news admin) Reply-To: jmpiuze@qc.bell.ca Organization: Bell Sygma Solution Telecom Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:21:16 GMT Lines: 15 Even after using many shearching engines, I still can't find-out specifications of the SYmbolic LinK file format!... I wish to write information for spreadsheet directly in SYLK format (ascii like). Is there any web site releasing this information? Or there isprobably books about this!? Anyone can help? Please send me a short email.. Thank's! Bye, jmpiuze #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!rain.fr!ai.alienor.fr!xlan!news From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr Subject: Pb while drawing a matrix! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hp-712-60 Message-ID: Sender: news@x-lan.alienor.fr Organization: x&lan X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8a) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:13:29 GMT Lines: 120 I'd like to add a TextFieldcells matrix to a custom object. But it appears that my matrix is displayed in the superView and in my object!!! The way I create my object: { [[superView window] disableFlushWindow]; newObject = [TexteVariableMulti alloc]; [newObject initFrame:&newRect ....]; [superView addSubview:newObject]; [newObject display]; [[[superView window] reenableFlushWindow] flushWindow]; break; } Where : @implementation TexteVariableMulti - initFrame:(NXRect *)frameRect .... { [super initFrame:frameRect text:text alignment:mode]; [self calcLine]; [self setOpaque:YES]; /*allouer une matrice nbCol colonnes, ((nbVar-1)/nbCol)+1 lignes*/ matrixField = [[MatrixTxtVar alloc] initFrame:frameRect mode:NX_TRACKMODE cellClass:[TextFieldCell class] numRows:(int)(((nbVar-1)/nbCol)+1) numCols:nbCol]; [matrixField setCellBackgroundGray:1]; [matrixField setEnabled:NO]; [matrixField setEmptySelectionEnabled:YES]; [self addSubview:matrixField]; return self; } - drawSelf:(const NXRect *)rects :(int)rectCount { TextFieldCell *cellField; char buf[100]; int i,j; int lignes; int nbCellDess=0; NXRect frameMatrix; lignes=(int)(((nbVariables-1)/nbColonnes)+1); [self setClipping:YES]; [self setBackgroundGray:1]; PSsetgray(1); NXRectFill(&bounds); [self setFont:myFont]; [self setTextColor:couleurText]; [self setEditable:NO]; NXPing(); aRedessiner = NO; NXEraseRect(&bounds); [matrixField renewRows:0 cols:nbColonnes]; [matrixField lockFocus]; for (i=0;i Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:33:57 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55312 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183360 comp.sys.mac.system:195155 comp.sys.next.programmer:22186 Maury Markowitz wrote: > mmalcolm crawford wrote: > > > "The PC market doesn't want Unix any more than the Mac market does." > > So far so good. > > > I submit that Linux's success refutes this statement, and your > > subsequent post does not alter this. > > What success? Can you provide solid numbers of any sort? I think, since you were the one that asserted that the PC market doesn't want UNIX, that the burden to provide the figures is yours. Merely shrugging your shoulders and asking "where is it?" is not enough to support your claim. I'll give you a start, though. You can begin by adding the seats of intel boxes running any of the following: NeXTstep Solaris/x86 FreeBSD RedHat Linux Caldera Linux Debian Linux Slackware Linux Acme Linux generic download-the-source Linux NetBSD SCO Minix Don't be put off by the fact that this list seems to indicate that at least one person out in the PC world wants UNIX. That would be me. I'm single-handedly keeping all of them in business. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!kirin.wwa.com!news.ucdavis.edu!info.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!ieng9.ucsd.edu!llay From: enigma Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Compiling C++? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:47:21 -0800 Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 27 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ieng9.ucsd.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, This question is probably in a FAQ somewhere, but I just didn't know where to look... I'm using NSFIP 3.2 and trying to compile a C++ program for school. I thought NS has added support for C++ in addition to Objective C (which IMHO is far better than C++). Yet when I tried to compile the program, it gave me some sort of error about "reaching the end of the program" unexpectedly and complained about some undefined function/object/whatever. This program I'm trying to compile, compiled and runs successfully on the school's computer using g++ compiler--so it can't be something wrong with the source code... This send me digging through the developer's manuals, which only mentioned in passing about the "-x" option to cc for specifying the language. When I gave it the c++ language (as mentioned in the manual), it gave me error, saying unknown language. Since 3.2 don't come with g++ (does it come with newer version of OS?), I'm completely lost here. Any help appreciated. Thanks Luke. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!usc!newshub.cts.com!NewsWatcher!user From: andrewc@vasci.com (Andrew Cunningham) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.lang.pascal.mac,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.arch.embedded,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:15:20 -0800 Organization: Vibro-Acoustic Sciences Inc Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: pxy068.cts.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:59825 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3772 comp.lang.pascal.mac:4694 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10681 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20446 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5248 comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:2217 comp.arch.embedded:15266 comp.lang.java.programmer:32214 comp.sys.next.misc:24871 comp.sys.next.programmer:22188 In article , MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote: > METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY If anyone is interested in my experience (which has been quite positive overall) as a C/C++ Latitude developer feel free to email me. We have ported our application ,AutoSEA, to HP-UX and SGI. In a nutshell, Latitude gives you System 6.0.7 + 32 Bit Quickdraw plus a smattering of Syustem 7 API's. No magic there. Things that have no equivalent on a UNIX platform are just not there (e.g. Process Manager etc). The speed is pretty good - Latitude is a mature product that is now up to V3.x. I dearly hope Metrowerks provides SGI and (particularly) HP-UX C++ compilers as the native ones are bloody awful! Andrew -------------------------- Andrew Cunningham Vibro-Acoustic Sciences Inc 5355 Mira Sorrento Pl #100 San Diego CA 92121 USA Ph: +1-(619) 597 7535 Fax: +1-(619) 597 7414 e-mail: andrewc@vasci.com http://www.vasci.com -- Andrew Cunningham Vibro-Acoustic Sciences Inc Ph: +1-(619) 597 7535 Fax: +1-(619) 597 7414 e-mail: andrewc@vasci.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!usenet From: "Thomas L. Ferrell" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: BASIC on NeXT? Date: 28 Jan 1997 06:28:51 GMT Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5ck6b3$mj9@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov> References: <5cebjo$h75$1@Venus.mcs.net> <5chi2o$gmm@belzebul.imaginet.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp11r.ppp.ornl.gov Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.12(Macintosh; I; PPC) X-URL: news:5chi2o$gmm@belzebul.imaginet.fr See http://www.fys.ruu.nl/~bergmann/basic.html for Basic on all platforms. I think also that Chipmunk Basic has a UNIX port in progress, tho the Mac version is the best. tom Remove NoSpam from my email address to reply. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de!tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de!newsmaster From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: gdb displays double values incorrectly??? Date: 28 Jan 1997 01:42:00 GMT Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5cjlh8$89j@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin089.rz.uni-frankfurt.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Hi, I just encountered the following problem: In a program I use a variable of the type double. While the program actually works correctly and e.g. fprintf(stdout, "%f", variable) prints out the correct value, gdb shows some variation in the low bits. E.g. 199701270707 (correct value) becomes 199701266432 in gdb's/Edit.app's variable browser. Is this a known bug, or what is it?? Any ideas/experiences? Thanks for any insight! Bye Uli -- ______________________________________________________________________ Uli Zappe E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request Lorscher Strasse 5 WWW: - D-60489 Frankfurt Fon: +49 (69) 9784 0007 Germany Fax: +49 (69) 9784 0042 staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine ______________________________________________________________________ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news From: Hal Bouma Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Need advice for books Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:25:25 -0500 Organization: Bethesda Softworks Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32ED3965.3B17@erols.com> Reply-To: hbouma@erols.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dam-as11s02.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Hi, I'm finally getting a machine to run NeXTStep this week. (After a 3 year wait!) Since I haven't ran a UNIX based machine including NS before, I would like any advice for some good books on how to run a UNIX system (expecially any that deal with NS) along with any recommendations for books regarding programming for NeXTStep and Objective C. I would also appreciate information on where I might be able to buy these books, even if its to ask around on comp.sys.next.marketplace. I would prefer email responses, but I will stop by to read what is posted on here. Thanks! Hal Bouma hbouma@erols.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:24:31 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55349 comp.sys.mac.system:195209 comp.sys.next.programmer:22192 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183423 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 23-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by William Raphael Hix@port > : There are some problems I see with that suggestion. Let me present just > : the ones that would affect Mac users and not discuss any of the problems > : that would affect Unix users. > : > : 3) Remember Copland? Apple already tried and _failed_ to write their > : own replacement operating system for MacOS 7.x. > : > : While the brain-trust they've gained by acquiring NeXT's engineers would > : undoubtedly be of assistance in creating a new operating system, NeXT's > : engineers have already created their own operating system to do > : preemptive multitasking, good virtual memory, and so forth-- NEXTSTEP, > : which is based off of a reasonably sophisticated Mach kernel and BSD 4.x > : Unix and GNU utilities. > > The problem with Copland was reportedly making the old Mac Toolbox work > on a modern kernal. OpenStep is to solve that problem, not necessarily > the rest of NeXTStep. Well, Apple didn't have to buy NeXT in order to have the OpenStep API be available. All they had to do was fix their operating system so that the MacOS had the minimum level of functionality (PMT, good VM, IPC, etc) required for OpenStep to work on a platform. Apple could have paid NeXT on the order of $10 - 50 million for NeXT to port OpenStep to the MacOS, or Apple could have implemented their own version, or they could even have helped the GNUStep project along. All three would have been much cheaper alternatives. Apple bought NeXT for more than just OpenStep. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:05:57 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55351 comp.sys.mac.system:195214 comp.sys.next.programmer:22193 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183428 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 27-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> Are you claiming that removing functionality does make programming >> easier, or that you have not suggested removing functionality by making >> the Unix utilities optional? > > Are you claiming that I have ever said anything even remotely like this? I can only think of the above two ways of interpreting what you meant by your comment. If you want to restate what you meant more clearly, go ahead.... >> An API stands for "application programming interface" and it refers to a >> convention by which a software component is used by other software. The >> Unix utilities have an API defined for their command line usage. > > OOPS API's. I take it you acknowledge that the Unix CLI's do inf fact have an "API"? With regard to "object oriented", let's see: Modularity: Each Unix CLI utility is an object and we can combine them pretty freely. You can substitute different implementations of things like sort or grep (say GNU's for your vendor's) and not have to change anything, even through the new version may have a completely different internal implementation. Encapsulation: We're considering each utility as an object, and they encapulate their internal data very well (since each is a seperate process). Polymorphism: Well, we're using typeless ASCII with conventions like whitespace to seperate fields and CR and/or LF to indicate line breaks-- that implies we have some level of polymorphism, at least at the data level. However, the Unix CLI's do not have an inheritence hierarchy (except for a few exceptions along the lines of fgrep/grep/egrep). If you insist that OO has to have a predefined inheritence system, maybe they aren't fully OO. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 00:30:34 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55353 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183430 comp.sys.mac.system:195215 comp.sys.next.programmer:22194 In article , Maury Markowitz wrote: >> I can use fork()/exec() (which is more controllable in terms of handling >> stdin, stdout, etc that system()) on every POSIX-compliant operating >> system and every Unix system around. > > But that's a TINY portion of the computer market. A better solution >that's not platform dependant would allow easier access to the rest of the >market. MacOS and Unix pretty much *are* the computer market, except for Windows. Making MacOS 8 compatible with Unix is a no-brainer, since it practically *is* Unix. OS/2 is POSIX-compliant, so no problem there. BeOS is heading towards POSIX-compliance and can run Mac binaries anyway, so there's no problem there. They both have their own programming models that aren't compatible with anything else, so nobody else can use specially designed BeOS or OS/2 software anyway. But as long as the code is POSIX-compliant we can all share. So if we can use fork() and exec() and the rest of it, then we've cornered pretty much the entire market except for Windows. What about Windows? I really, REALLY don't want Apple to try to put the entire Windows API into the new MacOS and make it the standard programming model. Bad news. We have SoftWindows if we need it. Maybe MetroWerks will port PowerPlant to Windows and we'll have a common API. Or we could use Java. At any rate, I really don't think a Windows-compatible API is something Apple should try to work into the system. Given all of that, what's the problem with fork() and exec()? What can be a more generic way of implementing them? -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.maz.net!unlisys!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!isst.fhg.de!usenet From: Dirk Vleugels Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: SPARC OpenStep & GCC Date: 19 Jan 1997 23:01:32 +0100 Organization: FhG ISST Dortmund, Germany Lines: 34 Sender: vleugels@po Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: po.do.isst.fhg.de X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 Hi, i installed OpenStep 1.0 on a Creator2 running Solaris 2.5.1, and i'm quite impressed. Question: I do have the header files NS* & stuff + the shared libraries: total 12108 lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 14 Jan 19 03:25 libAppKit.so -> libAppKit.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 4282152 Aug 9 03:13 libAppKit.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 18 Jan 19 03:25 libFoundation.so -> libFoundation.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 1346060 Aug 3 04:04 libFoundation.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 20 Jan 19 03:25 libObjcSelector.so -> libObjcSelector.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 363328 Aug 3 04:04 libObjcSelector.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 18 Jan 19 03:25 libidlRuntime.so -> libidlRuntime.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 32508 Aug 3 04:04 libidlRuntime.so.1* lrwxrwxrwx 1 root other 12 Jan 19 03:24 libobjc.so -> libobjc.so.1* -rwxr-xr-x 1 bin bin 119316 Aug 3 04:04 libobjc.so.1* drwxr-xr-x 3 bin bin 512 Jan 19 03:25 locale/ Is it possible to develop software with the free GCC? Do i need the AppBuilder? I couldn't find a SUN ObjC compiler + OpenStep SDK. Any hints (please reply also by mail)? Dirk -- "It's 206 ms to Chicago, we've got a full disk of GIFs, half a meg of hypertext, it's dark, and we're wearing sunglasses." "Click it." -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:47:52 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 86 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22196 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55364 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183454 comp.sys.mac.system:195227 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 27-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> Correct. A multiuser computer system has conventions for where you >> should place common files (like applications, fonts, and other such >> resources) which are supposedly intended for use by all users. > > Well that about says it all. Computers should not do what we tell them > to, it should be the other way around and that's completely logical. Look, I'm not interested in defending a strawman position you've created yourself. Did I ever say that computers should not do what people tell them too? Conventions are developed by humans to provide a system of organization that can be used by computers to help humans work better-- but these conventions are human inventions. > FYI, the Mac allows you to stew most files around as you like, and has > no problems finding them, running them etc. This is true for both mutiple > and single user machines. Really? Let's consider a simple example, a file named 'Readme.doc'. Under a multiuser MacOS machine, how can one user double-click on that document and have it open in Word, while another user can double-click that precise same document (without changing any attribute of that document) and have it open in some other word processor? >> For that matter, single-user computer systems have some of those >> conventions too-- what else did you think the special nature of the >> "System folder" represents under MacOS? > > Something that should have been destroyed many moons ago. Maybe we should get rid of directories, too, and just have all of the files in one flat data space? Why did we ever come up with conventions to organize things in the first place? >> Are you willing to accept empirical evidence from the real world as to >> which of our respective definitions is more valid, or does that not >> interest you? > > _empirical_? No. That speaks for itself. > You wouldn't be either. I've run one too many beta test programs to not appreciate the value of real-world feedback even if it conflicts with my own opinions and theories. Just because you refuse to accept real-world evidence, Maury, does not mean that everyone else refuses to acknowledge consensual reality.... [ ... ] >> The point was, I was showing a real-world example of roughly as many >> Macs that did have a convention for filesystem layout as you stated that >> you were familiar with which did not have such a convention. And this >> refutes your attempt to claim that Macs in general do not have such >> conventions. > > Har! It does not at all refute it, you're arguing the general from the > specific! Really now. You made an existential claim-- that out of all of the hundreds of Macs you were familiar with, none of them had filesystem conventions. From this, you implicitly generalized that all Macs do not have such conventions, so Pohl's argument was therefore incorrect. However, all one has to do to refute an existential claim like yours is to find a single counterexample, as I did. The fact that I can point to lots of Macs (and other computers) and show machines with such conventions indicates that it's a standard practice, at least in some environments. [ ... ] -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 00:45:21 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5cji71$5lf$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55367 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183471 comp.sys.mac.system:195231 comp.sys.next.programmer:22197 In <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > What about Windows? I really, REALLY don't want Apple to try to put the > entire Windows API into the new MacOS and make it the standard programming > model. Bad news. We have SoftWindows if we need it. Maybe MetroWerks > will port PowerPlant to Windows and we'll have a common API. Or we could > use Java. At any rate, I really don't think a Windows-compatible API is > something Apple should try to work into the system. > No need to worry, Openstep for NT exists, and soon Openstep for Win95 will too. :-) Thus, there is a common API for MacOS8/Rhapsody and Windows, and it's not a compromise of "our side" of the fense. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!xs4all!ztm07-20.dial.xs4all.nl!user From: rr@xs4all.nl (rr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: old NeXTStep version and PPP Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:11:46 +0100 Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ztm07-20.dial.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 02:15:52 MET Hi, This may not be the right place for these questions... My excuses in advance. I have a NeXTCube running an old version of NeXTSTep (2.x). I want to get my email with it. I also have a modem that came with it ( HSD InterFax 24/96 NX -not much but ok for just email, Iguess) I not sXXt about UNIX. I'm having a lot of trouble getting this setup to work for me. I want to get/send email. That's not too much to ask for such a beatifull machine. I gather I have to set up uucp. I find the manual not very clear on this, but maybe I'm just stupid. I'm also wondering if there is a version of PPP that will work with this old version of NeXTSTep. Does anybody know this ? Also, last the Cube with this version of NeXTStep doesn't seem to read macintosh-floppies the manual says it can with the help of some software, but doesn't state what or where to get it. Does anybody know this ? help is much appreciated, Rodney #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!192.33.12.30!jklein From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cancel <32ec3ca9.0@192.33.12.30> Control: cancel <32ec3ca9.0@192.33.12.30> Date: 27 Jan 97 09:18:55 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 1 Message-ID: <32ec72ff.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hampshire.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Article cancelled from within tin [v1.2 PL2] #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!panix!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:20:07 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32ED7E77.3C7FDC1A@screaming.org> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55395 comp.sys.mac.system:195274 comp.sys.next.programmer:22199 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183520 Charles William Swiger wrote: > Apple could have paid NeXT on the order of $10 - 50 million for NeXT to > port OpenStep to the MacOS, or Apple could have implemented their own > version, or they could even have helped the GNUStep project along. All > three would have been much cheaper alternatives. > > Apple bought NeXT for more than just OpenStep. I suppose that depends upon what one means when they say "for OpenStep". On the one hand, Apple could have used it for free, or less expensively. On the other hand, if they bought NeXT for the ownership of that API, they could have still done it just "for OpenStep". Perhaps I'm picking nits, but I think that ownership of the API was implied. Of course, we know damn well that OpenStep is not the only NeXT technology or resource that Apple went sweet on. In order to maintain a clear message, they have to stress OpenStep above all else, but we'll see them promote more of their acquired technology once they've survived the transition. They know what assets they've purchased, including the talent of NeXT's engineers. OpenStep is merely the main course. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-15.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: svenifer@snet.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Converting ascii or dbf to objects? Date: 28 Jan 1997 14:21:12 GMT Organization: "SNET dial access service" Lines: 5 Message-ID: <5cl20o$8cj@goofy.snet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hrfr03-sh8-port206.snet.net X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 Any advice on what classes I would use to read in data files in ascii or dbf format to create objects which would later be NSarchived. I am using OPENSTEP 4.0 Developer. Thanks Sven #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!node2.frontiernet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-15.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: svenifer@snet.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: creating objects from ascii or dbf files? Date: 28 Jan 1997 14:25:47 GMT Organization: "SNET dial access service" Lines: 4 Message-ID: <5cl29b$8g2@goofy.snet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: hrfr03-sh8-port206.snet.net X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 Any advice on how create objects from ascii or dbf files using OPENSTEP 4.0? Thanks Sven #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news.ppp.net!usenet From: Lars Immisch Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Need a little C-help Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:50:28 +0100 Organization: Immisch, Becker & Partner Lines: 60 Message-ID: <32ECA494.4851@ibp.de> References: <199701250636.BAA05669@nerc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.163.97.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Timothy J Luoma wrote: > > I would like to change this bit of code for PPP > > I can't read C much, so I'm floundering here. > > Lines 16-20 are the ones which control the bringing down of the > link if the idle time has been met. > > I would like to replace the existing code with code which will: > 1) send a message to /dev/console saying "Idle time > exceeded, bringing down link" > > 2) execute "/usr/local/bin/pppdown" (preferably with the > UID and GID of use who started this all, but that isn't crucial) I don't know about /dev/console... Is that syslog entry not sufficient? About executing a script. Hmmm. The pppd I know already executes a script when the link goes down. It is called ip_down by default, but this can be overridden... Your pppd sources appear to be different from the ones I know, so be warned. The pppd sources I know have a function called run_program in main.c. This can be used to execute a script; as a model, have a look at ipcp_script() in ipcp.c. e.g, you would do something like: static void tjl_script(char* script, int unit) { char strgid[32]; char struid[32]; char* argv[3]; sprintf(strgid, "%d", getgid()); sprintf(struid, "%d", getuid()); argv[0] = script; argv[1] = struid; argv[2] = strgid; // run script with arguments argv, don't exit if it does not exist run_program(script, argv, 0, unit); } You would call this after, say, line 19 of your example as: tjl_script("/usr/local/bin/pppdown", 0); Lars -- mailto:lars@ibp.de http://www.ibp.de/~lars Yesterdays yellow yoyo can make you yawn today #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsrelay.iastate.edu!news.iastate.edu!news From: logic@friley253.res.iastate.edu (???) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: WM Inspector Question... Date: 28 Jan 1997 06:21:12 GMT Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5ck5so$lor@news.iastate.edu> References: <5cgjaq$9g7@news.iastate.edu> <5cihg4$fsr@castor.cca.rockwell.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: friley253.res.iastate.edu In-Reply-To: <5cihg4$fsr@castor.cca.rockwell.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 On 01/27/97, Erik M. Buck wrote: >In <5cgjaq$9g7@news.iastate.edu> ??? wrote: >> Hello all, >> I have a simple question: I would like to have a bitmap (on >> top of a button) in my WM Inspector Panel. > >Add the image to the images suitcase in IB. > > Erik, I am not sure if you got my EMAIL response, but I tried that, and it still cannot find it. I get no image. I check to make sure I wasn't setting the button as transparent or anything... is this a normal problem? Matt #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news.ppp.net!usenet From: Lars Immisch Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Compiler version in newest OS? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:27:10 +0100 Organization: Immisch, Becker & Partner Lines: 22 Message-ID: <32ECD75E.A07@ibp.de> References: <5cigco$bou@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.163.97.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Randy Jackson wrote: > > My understanding is that NeXT's compiler (cc) is comparable (derived from?) > some version of the gnu c compiler. I have NS3.2/3.3 Developer, and am > wondering whether the compiler that comes with 4.0 (or are we up to 4.1?) is > comparable to a more recent gnu compiler. A version number would answer my > question. Is it 2.7.2? 3.3's cc is gcc 2.2.2. I _think_ 4.1 still does not have 2.7.2, but this will hopefully be confirmed by someone who has 4.1. I am using gcc 2.7.2 on my 3.3 station, though. It is very easy to build a version from the source distribution on prep.ai.mit.edu I should note, however, that I do not use gcc 2.7.2 for Objective-C development or with ProjectBuilder-generated makefiles. -- mailto:lars@ibp.de http://www.ibp.de/~lars Yesterdays yellow yoyo can make you yawn today #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: far@ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Calling ObjC from C function... Date: 28 Jan 1997 06:44:41 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5ck78p$6at@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: Reply-To: far@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: whx-ca8-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Jan 28 12:44:41 AM CST 1997 In article sams@best.com (Samuel G. Streeper) writes: >jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) writes: >>if I'm using some code that is best done (or only done, in this case) >>in C, how can I get back to objective C code. Here's my situation... > >There's no real problem with going back to objc syntax; >From the BackSpace example: > >void timedEntryFunction (DPSTimedEntry timedEntry, > double timeNow, void *theObject) >{ [(id)theObject doDistributorLoop]; >} > >The real problem is that "self" is a hidden argument in all >method invocations, so if you try this: > > myFunction() > { [self doSomething]; > } > >The compiler will not know what self is. Best way is probably >to pass it in as an argument: > > myFunction(id self) > { [self doSomething]; > } > >Only other thing is to make sure the compiler is in objective-c >mode, which it wouldn't be by default on a ".c" file, but >it would be on a ".m" file. I just rename sources to make the >right thing happen automatically, but you could turn it on >with the appropriate compiler flag. (If memory serves, >it's something like "-objc") > >cheers, >-sam One thing I do is route through the app delegate: myFunction() { [[NXApp delegate] doSomething]; } -- Felipe A. Rodriguez # Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from Agoura Hills, CA # being a private citizen because he was # armed; his successors, since they avoided far@ix.netcom.com # the inconveniences of arms, became private (NeXTmail preferred) # citizens after having been dukes. (MIMEmail welcome) # --Nicolo Machiavelli #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!ai.alienor.fr!xlan!news From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr Subject: My color disappears when I paste ? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hp-712-60 Message-ID: Sender: news@x-lan.alienor.fr Organization: x&lan X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8a) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 09:18:22 GMT Lines: 39 I want to do a cut-paste with : paste => anObject=NXReadObject(stream); NXCloseTypedStream(stream); [vueFond addSubview:anObject]; [anObject display]; where : - read:(NXTypedStream *)typedStream { [super read:typedStream]; .... couleurText = NXReadColor(typedStream); .... } and : copy => NXWriteRootObject(stream, anObject); NXCloseTypedStream(stream); where : - write:(NXTypedStream *)typedStream { .... NXWriteColor(typedStream, couleurText); .... } But the first time the object is redrawn (there is [self setTextColor:couleurText]; there) there is no color??? Thanks for help. -- --------------------------------------- | O_O | O_O -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Fred Galot fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.reference.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 03:51:45 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5cken1$6co@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22207 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55414 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183564 comp.sys.mac.system:195307 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > Now before anyone tells me how impossible (or even unlikely) this is, Be > is doing it. Now. Yeah, and how long is it going to be before Be has even _close_ to the number of utilities functions Unix has, neatly modularized in OOP libraries. A long, long, _long_ time. And a lot of the current Be utilities are actually Unix ones running under POSIX emulation. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!informatik.uni-muenchen.de!newsmaster From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 28 Jan 1997 19:34:09 GMT Organization: Institut fuer Informatik der Universitaet Muenchen Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5clkbh$7s1@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> References: <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com> <5b698t$qsa@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dial043.ppp.lrz-muenchen.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11171 comp.sys.next.programmer:22208 clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) wrote: > >Think virtual. If it can't be done with virtual member functions, then >think dynamic_cast. If it still can't be done, think type_info. Each is >is small, additional layer over C, so you pay for what you use. If you >need more dynamism, and a great many problems do not, C++ is a poor choice. Ah, blurb. Think practical. Objective-C is much more like Smalltalk and much easier to learn and understand than C++. Why should I think e.g. about virtual member functions or all the other shit, if I could write it in a unique way in Objective-C? You should definitly watch the Be developer corner, and look what problems they do have, because C++ is rather complex and doesn't allow you to simply implement your design. In Objective-C or Smalltalk (or other equal languages) you can take your design and simply write it down. In C++ you have to take a further step and think about how to write it down in C++. A mistake in C++ could block further development! IMHO practiced showed, that Objective-C (and much more Smalltalk) is the better choice. However the market promotes C++ (because it is more like C(!), yes this was the winner strategy). This comparance is like Windows to NEXTSTEP. Everybody who ever used both, knows which one is better --- but the market thinks different. Folks, this is getting to be and advocacy thread.... Greetings, Bernhard. -- Bernhard Scholz http://www.leo.org/~scholz/ Peanuts FTP Admin http://peanuts.leo.org/ scholz@leo.org, (StuSta ONLY: boerny@xenia.stusta.mhn.de) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 14:12:26 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5clj2q$76p@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5cken1$6co@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22209 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55425 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183590 comp.sys.mac.system:195318 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5cken1$6co@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > Yeah, and how long is it going to be before Be has even _close_ to the > > number of utilities functions Unix has, neatly modularized in OOP > > libraries. > Most of it's done as far as I can tell. Look again. BeOS is nowhere near as mature as Unix. The current OOP APIs have a lot of the core functionality of Unix's base API (e.g., POSIX), but the BeOS APIs do not encapsulate nearly as many utility routines as the Unix command-line programs. It does not have OOP replacements for all, or even many, of the Unix command-line utilities. > > A long, long, _long_ time. And a lot of the current Be > > utilities are actually Unix ones running under POSIX emulation. > Uhh, not really unless you look at raw numbers. I _am_ looking at raw numbers. What does "a lot" mean? Fake numbers? Obviously, the BeOS utilities which are written to the BeOS API are not the ones running under POSIX emulation. But BeOS does not have nearly as many native utilities. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!hp.fciencias.unam.mx!usenet From: Briones Garcia Jorge Alfonso Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Looking for Examples Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:31:45 -0600 (CST) Organization: A Poorly Internet Site. Lines: 7 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: solarium.cs.buap.mx Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am learning to programming in NEXTSTEP 3.1. I am looking for examples, if you have some please send to me. Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thanks. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:29:22 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <32ED7E77.3C7FDC1A@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <32ED7E77.3C7FDC1A@screaming.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195334 comp.sys.next.programmer:22211 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183610 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55434 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 27-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Pohl Longsine@screaming. >> Apple could have paid NeXT on the order of $10 - 50 million for NeXT to >> port OpenStep to the MacOS, or Apple could have implemented their own >> version, or they could even have helped the GNUStep project along. All >> three would have been much cheaper alternatives. >> >> Apple bought NeXT for more than just OpenStep. > > I suppose that depends upon what one means when they say "for > OpenStep". On the one hand, Apple could have used it for > free, or less expensively. On the other hand, if they bought > NeXT for the ownership of that API, they could have still > done it just "for OpenStep". Perhaps I'm picking nits, but > I think that ownership of the API was implied. Wasn't OpenStep (the API) submitted to a standards organization like OMG? OpenStep is not a proprietary standard that Apple can alter at will, although they certainly are the primary group responsible for improving the standard. > Of course, we know damn well that OpenStep is not the only NeXT > technology or resource that Apple went sweet on. In order to > maintain a clear message, they have to stress OpenStep above > all else, but we'll see them promote more of their acquired > technology once they've survived the transition. I didn't see that from the letters I've seen from Gil Amelio. The very first reason given for Apple acquiring NeXT is because they have complementary technologies and missing pieces. As Gil said, NeXT had a solid operating system that Apple can use, and Apple has a large installed base that gives NeXT users and developers some volume. > They know what assets they've purchased, including the talent of > NeXT's engineers. OpenStep is merely the main course. I'd agree with you, but I'm looking at this from the perspective of a developer who likes cross-platform API's which allow me to not have to maintain seperate code trees and have to work hard to port my software. The installed base of current Mac users appear to be looking for a more stable operating system from Apple, and most of them could care less about Unix or the CLI, and they probably aren't as interested in gaining OpenStep as they are a decent OS to go with their GUI, their current applications, and Apples' ease-of-use. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 22:11:45 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5cltj1$2nc@news.xmission.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c9g5b$nrl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E91CBE.56EF@exnext.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22212 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55435 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183612 comp.sys.mac.system:195337 jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) wrote: > In article <32E91CBE.56EF@exnext.com>, jon@exnext.com wrote: > > NeXTSTEP's Open and Save panels default to your home directory, > > IIRC. So storing Edit documents in /NextApps would be more > > work than putting them in ~/Library, since you'd have to do > > more browsing to get there. > > Ah- that helps explain it. I _can_ set up my Mac to default to > 'documents' or something, but instead I've always had each app default to > the last folder used while in the app, which really reinforces my arguably > odd organizational procedures :) the control panel for doing this is > 'General Controls' by the way, for the few who aren't already going 'I > knew that, don't condescend to me' ;) > > Often this means that there is no browsing at all- I go to an app which > I've not used that much, and bam, it is anticipating me because the last > time I used it I was geared to a particular task and area. Similar task- > same area- no browsing. > > I bet they keep this as an option (which it currently is). One thing that _some_ NEXTSTEP apps have implemented--and I like this a lot--is a variable "set" of default directories for the Open/Save panel. When you first run the app, the default directory is your home, but you can add other directories to an extra pop-up menu that they added to the Open/Save panel. That way you have a list of places you can jump to really quickly. Sort of like a shelf for the Open/Save panel, but using up less real estate. I've found this to be handy in OpenWrite, since I can switch my "working" mode to change which group of documents I'm working on, etc. Another cool thing is the way you can drag a folder out of a WorkSpace browser and drop it on an Open/Save panel and the panel will jump to that folder, or the folder that houses the file you dropped on the panel... Definitely some improvements could be made to the standard OPENSTEP environment as far as this goes... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:38:05 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22213 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55439 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183614 comp.sys.mac.system:195338 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > >> Correct. [snip] > Look, I'm not interested in defending a strawman position you've created > yourself. Did I ever say that computers should not do what people tell > them too? Yes, as a matter of fact. You agreed with a statement by saying "Correct." at the first line there, and the statement I made was exactly that. > Under a multiuser MacOS machine, how can one user double-click on that > document and have it open in Word, while another user can double-click > that precise same document (without changing any attribute of that > document) and have it open in some other word processor? Use MEO, the prefs are stored locally. For single machine/multiuser situation you have the same problem and I'd love to hear what resources the Mac provides for mapping this on a per folder basis. > Maybe we should get rid of directories, too, and just have all of the > files in one flat data space? Why did we ever come up with conventions > to organize things in the first place? Now who's creating strawmen? > > _empirical_? No. > > That speaks for itself. That's right, I trust test results and numbers > I've run one too many beta test programs to not appreciate the value of > real-world feedback Real world feedback is not empirical because it can be quantified. > does not mean that everyone else refuses to acknowledge consensual > reality.... How existential of you. > You made an existential claim-- that out of all of the hundreds of Macs > you were familiar with, none of them had filesystem conventions. From > this, you implicitly generalized that all Macs do not have such > conventions, so Pohl's argument was therefore incorrect. No actually I was countering your claim that everyone that runs such systems has such standards. In fact I can now raise that (with a little reflection) to something on the order of 1000 Macs, none of which I know of have defined places in which to place files. Your claim: most networks do this My claim: hogwash Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.structured.net!news2.ixa.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:35:27 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55447 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183624 comp.sys.mac.system:195353 comp.sys.next.programmer:22214 In article <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org>, Pohl Longsine wrote: > That's because it's largely meaningless. It means that NT customers > are relatively uninterested in the POSIX API, not that PC customers > are relatively uninterested in a UNIX OS. Well fair enough. But since those OS's (Win) form something on the order of 70% of the market share of OS's being sold today, that means the vast majority of the market doesn't want Unix. So fine, Linux could be up to 25%. Now let's see YOUR numbers. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:33:12 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 23 Message-ID: References: <5cken1$6co@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5clj2q$76p@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22215 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55449 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183628 comp.sys.mac.system:195359 In article <5clj2q$76p@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Look again. BeOS is nowhere near as mature as Unix. The current OOP > APIs have a lot of the core functionality of Unix's base API (e.g., > POSIX), but the BeOS APIs do not encapsulate nearly as many utility > routines as the Unix command-line programs. It does not have OOP > replacements for all, or even many, of the Unix command-line > utilities. Ok, let's see... it has a complete lib for file access, including documents and databases, as well as supporting powerful searching, sorting and information extraction from any of the objects in the data store. It has a complete string manipulation library too. Development is handled by CodeWarrior, so a lot of those utilities aren't needed. It seems we're down to some of the networking daemons now. > I _am_ looking at raw numbers. What does "a lot" mean? Fake numbers? How about total amount of time the user spends using them? Total number of invocations. Sure there might be 1000 unconverted Unix utils, but does anyone use them? Maury #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!ix.netcom.com!spill From: spill@netcom.com (David Stein) Subject: Do I wait for OpenStep 4.2? Message-ID: Organization: Netcom On-Line Services X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #9 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 00:01:25 GMT Lines: 13 Sender: spill@netcom.netcom.com I am about to purchase OpenStep 4.1 Enterprise Academic Bundle, which means that I get OpenStep and OpenStep Developer. I have just found out that Next is planning to release Developer 4.2 some time in February. Are there any glaring problems with OpenStep Developer (for NT) ver. 4.1 that I should know about? In other words, should I really care that 4.2 is coming out in less than a month? Will my life with 4.1 be miserable, while my life with 4.2 would be beautiful if I waited? Or, do I have nothing to worry about? What about OpenStep for Mach? Are there any terrible problems (besides NT look and feel) with Enterprise which Mach lets me avoid? Sincerely, David Stein spill@netcom.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:39:17 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55458 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183654 comp.sys.mac.system:195370 comp.sys.next.programmer:22217 Maury Markowitz wrote: > Pohl Longsine wrote: > > > I think, since you were the one that asserted that the PC market > > doesn't want UNIX, that the burden to provide the figures is > > yours. > > Not really, because I did provide strong evidence in the form of NT. > NT's POSIX support has either been muted or removed entirely in 4.0 (along > with support for OS/2 text mode programs and OS/2's HPFS disk format as > well) and yet no one said a thing. That's because it's largely meaningless. It means that NT customers are relatively uninterested in the POSIX API, not that PC customers are relatively uninterested in a UNIX OS. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!vas.bull.de!usenet From: Petr Novak Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: EOF 2.0, EOModeler crashes Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:52:36 +0100 Organization: Microcomp GmbH , Cologne, Germany Lines: 10 Message-ID: <32EDDA74.6BF@microcomp.de> Reply-To: novak@microcomp.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.120.248.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) Hallo ! Openstep 4.1 for NT, EOF 2.0 I tried 'Create subclass' in EOModeler. After assigning new class name for subclass, the inspector for setting parent class includes all records duplicate and it is impossible to save such model. (Error: NSConcreteMutableArray index(1) beyond bounds) Does anybody has experience with it ? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 20:53:21 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5clp01$7tq@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5cji71$5lf$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55463 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183662 comp.sys.mac.system:195374 comp.sys.next.programmer:22219 In article <5cji71$5lf$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, John Rudd wrote: >In <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: >> What about Windows? I really, REALLY don't want Apple to try to put the >> entire Windows API into the new MacOS and make it the standard programming >No need to worry, Openstep for NT exists, and soon Openstep for Win95 will >too. :-) > >Thus, there is a common API for MacOS8/Rhapsody and Windows, and it's not a >compromise of "our side" of the fense. Let me see if I understand you correctly. There is a single OpenStep API that handles menus and managing windows and dialog boxes and memory allocation and printing and disk drives and networking and threading and everything else you'd do with the OS, and it will work correctly whether that program be compiled under MacOS or Windows or Linux or whatever else you're running? There are equivelants in OpenStep to fork() and exec() and GetNewCWindow() and TrackGoAway() and everything? If all of that's true, I'd have no problem just keeping POSIX for compatibility reasons while everyone else programs under OpenStep. But considering Maury's point of having something besides fork() and exec() for compatibility with a wider range of machines, I still think Unix machines and Unix software outnumbers OpenStep running on NT/95. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!vas.bull.de!usenet From: Petr Novak Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Multiple classes for single entity ? Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:06:51 +0100 Organization: Microcomp GmbH , Cologne, Germany Lines: 12 Message-ID: <32EDDDCB.6877@microcomp.de> Reply-To: novak@microcomp.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.120.248.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) Hallo ! In EOF 1.0 was possible to let superclass choose subclass to instantiate for each row. It was implemented by overwriting the method -initWithPrimaryKey:entity: and the choice was based on primary key. (EOF DeveloperGuide 1.0, pages 51-52) I tried the same in EOF 2.0 with the method -initWithEditingContext:classDescription:globalID but this doesn't work. Any ideas ? Petr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:05:48 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <32EE6A2C.3F304074@screaming.org> References: <5cken1$6co@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22221 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55467 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183669 comp.sys.mac.system:195379 Nathan M. Urban wrote: > maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > > Now before anyone tells me how impossible (or even unlikely) this > > is, Be is doing it. Now. > > Yeah, and how long is it going to be before Be has even _close_ to the > number of utilities functions Unix has, neatly modularized in OOP > libraries. A long, long, _long_ time. And a lot of the current Be > utilities are actually Unix ones running under POSIX emulation. ^^^^^^^^^^ There's that misused word again. No offense meant, but those POSIX calls are genuine, bonafide system calls, as with any other POSIX implementation. No emulation involved. At worst, some of them may be wrappers for more general calls. At any rate, Be's class hierarchy will probably be a lot more interesting in about 10 years, assuming they can break out of their C++ funk. ;-) -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:47:30 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <32EEAC32.5D8EEA06@screaming.org> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55468 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183672 comp.sys.mac.system:195381 comp.sys.next.programmer:22222 Maury Markowitz wrote: > Pohl Longsine wrote: > > > That's because it's largely meaningless. It means that NT customers > > are relatively uninterested in the POSIX API, not that PC customers > > are relatively uninterested in a UNIX OS. > > Well fair enough. But since those OS's (Win) form something on the > order of 70% of the market share of OS's being sold today, that means the > vast majority of the market doesn't want Unix. > So fine, Linux could be up to 25%. Now let's see YOUR numbers. I need show you no numbers. I made no claim, let alone one so subjective as the size of the pie slice required for a product to be called "wanted" by a particular market. You think 70% is about it, huh? Might it depend upon the size of the pie, perhaps. Maybe also the rate of growth of the pie? Would it not also depend upon the rate of piracy for those systems, and the rate at which Windows is replaced by Linux on second-hand systems? Might the statistic be skewed the fact that Microsoft's sales figures include a copy of Windows per every PC that shipped to a consumer who installed something else over it? Does your statistic cover international use of Linux on PCs? I think the PC market is sufficiently difficult to analyze that statements like "The PC market does not want UNIX" are devoid of meaning. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!pixie.mcom.com!news From: David Matiskella Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exculsive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:46:15 -0800 Organization: Another Netscape News Server User Lines: 36 Message-ID: <32EE9DD1.4A9B@netscape.com> Reply-To: netscape.com NNTP-Posting-Host: h-198-95-250-234.mcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Charles William Swiger wrote: > > > FYI, the Mac allows you to stew most files around as you like, and has > > no problems finding them, running them etc. This is true for both mutiple > > and single user machines. > > Really? Let's consider a simple example, a file named 'Readme.doc'. > > Under a multiuser MacOS machine, how can one user double-click on that > document and have it open in Word, while another user can double-click > that precise same document (without changing any attribute of that > document) and have it open in some other word processor? Oh this is easy. Just drag word to the Trash can and empty the trash. When you double click on the application it will say that it can't find the application and it will ask you which application you want to use. While I wouldn't recommend doing this it doesn't modify the document. The MacOS really wasn't designed for more than one user in the current version. IE each of your users has to go through quite a bit of effort to have their own customized look and most applications only have 1 set of preference files. This is a relatively easy problem to fix and it by no means depends on fixed locations for applications and so on. In fact Copland was supposed to handle multiple users with different preferences. I would guess that it will make it into Raphsody. I would also bet that you will not by default get a login prompt when you boot up Raphsody since a lot of Apples customers don't need/want it. Why don't we debate the really important questions like "How many buttons is the mouse going to have?" or "How many CLI programs will barf upon seeing mac file names with / and space in them?" > -Chuck > > Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer > ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- > I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:05:08 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195390 comp.sys.next.programmer:22224 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183689 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55471 In article <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger wrote: > If Apple developed an OpenStep implementation of their own, rather than > just paying royalties, etc for NeXT's OPENSTEP implementation, Apple > would _own_ their code and implementation. They wouldn't owe NeXT a > dime, since OpenStep is an "open standard". And that will allow them to sell it on other platforms? I think not. > In order to keep NeXT's customer list, Apple needs to provide an > operating system, development environment, and so forth which is > comparible to the functionality of NeXT's current products. And they wouldn't be able to get any of them unless they first purchased it. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.starnet.net!news.starnet.net!newspump.wustl.edu!fas-news.harvard.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:57:29 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195398 comp.sys.next.programmer:22225 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183696 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55479 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 28-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> Apple could have paid NeXT on the order of $10 - 50 million for NeXT to >> port OpenStep to the MacOS > > Yes, but that wouldn't have allowed them to sell it, If Apple developed an OpenStep implementation of their own, rather than just paying royalties, etc for NeXT's OPENSTEP implementation, Apple would _own_ their code and implementation. They wouldn't owe NeXT a dime, since OpenStep is an "open standard". > nor would it have got them NeXT's customer list. Those alone are probably > worth more to Apple than a new OS for the Mac. In order to keep NeXT's customer list, Apple needs to provide an operating system, development environment, and so forth which is comparible to the functionality of NeXT's current products. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 29 Jan 1997 00:19:09 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5cmmkd$q4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55493 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183729 comp.sys.mac.system:195428 comp.sys.next.programmer:22226 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org>, Pohl Longsine > wrote: > > That's because it's largely meaningless. It means that NT customers > > are relatively uninterested in the POSIX API, not that PC customers > > are relatively uninterested in a UNIX OS. > Well fair enough. But since those OS's (Win) form something on the > order of 70% of the market share of OS's being sold today, that means the > vast majority of the market doesn't want Unix. They don't want the Mac either, apparently. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 29 Jan 1997 00:18:07 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 41 Message-ID: <5cmmif$o9@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5cji71$5lf$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5clp01$7tq@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55494 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183730 comp.sys.mac.system:195429 comp.sys.next.programmer:22227 In article <5clp01$7tq@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > Let me see if I understand you correctly. There is a single OpenStep API > that handles menus and managing windows and dialog boxes and memory > allocation and printing and disk drives and networking and threading and > everything else you'd do with the OS, and it will work correctly whether > that program be compiled under MacOS or Windows or Linux or whatever else > you're running? Yes.. well, almost all of that. Menus, windows, dialog boxes: yes Memory allocation: standard C malloc() type stuff, plus Obj-C memory management Printing: graphical objects typically know how to print themselves, as they are PostScript Disk drives: NSFileManager does most file management, but it is not part of the official OpenStep API, though it is present in NeXT implementations Networking: no socket classes, but Portable Distributed Objects Threading: NSThread, though the class isn't as nice as it could be.. probably from having to offer a lowest-common-denominator thread API across platforms. OpenStep apps will compile under OPENSTEP for Mach (all architectures), OPENSTEP/NT, Solaris OpenStep, and Rhapsody.. not Linux until the GNUstep project is finished. > There are equivelants in OpenStep to fork() and exec() NSTask is available for that, but it also is not part of the official spec and I only know for sure that it's in the NeXT implementations. > and GetNewCWindow() and TrackGoAway() and everything? I don't know what those are. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 29 Jan 1997 00:22:42 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 46 Message-ID: <5cm58i$fq6@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <5clkbh$7s1@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11175 comp.sys.next.programmer:22228 From article <5clkbh$7s1@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de>, by scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz): > clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) wrote: >> >>Think virtual. [... deleted ... ] >>need more dynamism, and a great many problems do not, C++ is a poor choice. > > Think practical. Objective-C is much more like Smalltalk and much easier to > learn and understand than C++. Why should I think e.g. about virtual member > functions or all the other shit, if I could write it in a unique way in > Objective-C? If everything looks like an object, than you're right, C++ is probably not the right choice. But how many problems really look that way? One of the biggest faults of Smalltalk is it's Number hierarchy. From a practical standpoint, numbers just don't make good objects. First, because we've been subjected to algebra from grade 8 and on, just don't think of + as being much like message that you send to a integer object. It's not that it is an impossible view, just not much like our everyday experience. Second, it misses out the fact that we often add integers to integers, and often know this at compile-time. Again, this doesn't mean Smalltalk can't add, just that it misses some fundamental optimizations (realities). Objective-C strives for practicality here, leaving purity to Smalltalk. My point above was that a great many problems do not require generality that Smalltalk and Objective-C both offer _and_ impose. The greatest feature of C++ is you pay for what you use. You get to decide how much abstraction a problem requires to solve cleanly, not the system. You have total control which, perhaps in the hands of beginner, may be too much control. But then that's the philosophy of C isn't it? To criticize C++ for being too powerful, and offering too many features, is like criticizing PhotoShop because it's too power and has too many features. > IMHO practiced showed, that Objective-C (and much more Smalltalk) is the > better choice. However the market promotes C++ (because it is more like C(!), > yes this was the winner strategy). This comparance is like Windows to > NEXTSTEP. Everybody who ever used both, knows which one is better --- but the > market thinks different. This is totally silly and sounds like crying over spilled milk. Objective-C is a great language -- I haven't claimed otherwise -- as is Smalltalk. What I do object to is "C++ is too hard" or "you can't write great software in C++" or "templates are a hack"-type comments. Those statements are as uninformed as "Objective-C is a pitiful language because it failed in the marketplace". -mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!news.starnet.net!news.starnet.net!news.inlink.com!not-for-mail From: sangria@inlink.com (Sang K. Choe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:23:47 GMT Organization: InLink Lines: 30 Message-ID: <32f9a559.1557269312@mambo> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: sangria.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55513 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183771 comp.sys.mac.system:195450 comp.sys.next.programmer:22229 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 15:39:17 -0600, Pohl Longsine wrote: >Maury Markowitz wrote: >> Pohl Longsine wrote: >.. >> Not really, because I did provide strong evidence in the form of NT. >> NT's POSIX support has either been muted or removed entirely in 4.0 (along >> with support for OS/2 text mode programs and OS/2's HPFS disk format as >> well) and yet no one said a thing. > >That's because it's largely meaningless. It means that NT customers >are relatively uninterested in the POSIX API, He's also incorrect. NT 4.0's POSIX subsystem is still quite intact and supported. A large chunk of the utilities shipped with the ResKit would be useless were this the case. I would also think the guys over at SoftWay would be rather pissed if the POSIX subsystem was no longer supported--seeings how some of their major product lines are designed to work with the existing POSIX subsystem. -- Sang. ******************************************************** * Sang K. Choe sangria@inlink.com * * http://sangria.inlink.com/index.html * * finger: sang@sangria.inlink.com * ******************************************************** #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.ysu.edu!odin.oar.net!malgudi.oar.net!usenet From: "Keith L. Swallow" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: TCL for NeXT (HELP) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:27:09 -0500 Organization: OARnet Lines: 15 Message-ID: <32EEA76D.41C67EA6@oar.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.oar.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.4 sun4m) CC: swallow@oar.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:24890 comp.sys.next.programmer:22230 comp.sys.next.software:27722 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25079 Hello all, I need to find a copy of tcl or instructions for installing tcl 7.6 on a next with nextmach 1.0 .. I know its old... But it is what I have to work with. SO any assistance would be gratfully appreciated. Please just reply to this by mailing me : swallow@oar.net Also sorry for cross posting... I wanted to hit everybody that might be able to help... thanks again... -Sincerly Keith Lee Swallow Thanks again... -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!Austria.EU.net!usenet From: Guenter Szolderits Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:12:17 +0100 Organization: ETM Ges.m.b.H. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <32EF0661.6A64@etm.co.at> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 193.83.198.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183778 comp.sys.mac.system:195456 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55518 comp.sys.next.programmer:22231 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article , Charles William Swiger > wrote: > > NT provides a POSIX-compliant environment, does it not? POSIX, or > > S/VID, or one of those standards defines POSIX-compliant command-line > > utilities which are precisely the ones shipped with modern Unices (and > > are largely backwards-compatible with the BSD 4.3 utilities). > > None of which appear to be on either my NT server or workstation. The POSIX subsystem of Windows NT is only POSIX.1, which does'nt include any POSIX commands. Some POSIX commands are part of the Windows NT Resource Kit, which must be purchased separately. I consider the POSIX subsystem of Windows NT as useless. You can get much better utilities (even for porting Unix programs to NT) from third party vendors. Guenter -- Guenter Szolderits | e-mail: guenter@etm.co.at E T M , Kasernenstr. 29 | Phone: +43 2682 67555-0 A-7000 Eisenstadt Austria | Fax: +43 2682 67555-107 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Compiling C++? Date: 28 Jan 1997 15:27:26 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5cl5su$id@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 For starters, you have to name the file with an extension the compiler recognizes as c++. also, include the g++ library with -lg++. Randy On 01/27/97, enigma wrote: >Hi, > >This question is probably in a FAQ somewhere, but I just didn't know where >to look... > >I'm using NSFIP 3.2 and trying to compile a C++ program for school. I >thought NS has added support for C++ in addition to Objective C (which >IMHO is far better than C++). > >Yet when I tried to compile the program, it gave me some sort of error >about "reaching the end of the program" unexpectedly and complained about >some undefined function/object/whatever. This program I'm trying to >compile, compiled and runs successfully on the school's computer using g++ >compiler--so it can't be something wrong with the source code... > >This send me digging through the developer's manuals, which only mentioned >in passing about the "-x" option to cc for specifying the language. When I >gave it the c++ language (as mentioned in the manual), it gave me error, >saying unknown language. > >Since 3.2 don't come with g++ (does it come with newer version of OS?), >I'm completely lost here. > >Any help appreciated. Thanks > >Luke. > > -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: ProjectBuilder hurdle Date: 28 Jan 1997 15:31:23 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5cl64b$jv@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 My last post was drafted in a fatigued state, and omitted much info. It appears in modified form below. I use NSFIP 3.3. My Developer package is labeled 3.2, and arrived with the 3.3 User upgrade. I have applied the Developer patches. Now, Since NS 1.0, and from then until now, I have written c++ code on the next, without bothering with the GUI. I decided today to give Project Builder a try, so I followed the directions in Chapter 15 of the Developer Documentation for Simple.app -- yes, I have problems with simple.app! When I get to the point of building the code, I get the error: invalid option -lang-objc But for the life of me, I don't see where I am specifying that option. Is there a default set of compiler options that PB calls, (I don't see CFLAGS defined in any of the three makefiles, and the cc man page doesn't provide any direction). Most importantly, what do I need to do to get past this problem? Thanks. Randy -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu!shaffer From: shaffer@durer.phyast.pitt.edu (C. David Shaffer) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Compiler version in newest OS? Date: 28 Jan 1997 15:47:16 GMT Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5cigco$bou@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <32ECD75E.A07@ibp.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: durer.phyast.pitt.edu In-reply-to: Lars Immisch's message of Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:27:10 +0100 Here's what I get on my NeXTStation running NS3.3: ernie> cc -v Reading specs from /lib/m68k/specs NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-437.2.6, gcc version 2.5.8 ernie> David --- -- David Shaffer Department of Physics Wayne State College Wayne, NE 68787 shaffer@phyast.pitt.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.tamu.edu!news.utdallas.edu!news.starnet.net!news.starnet.net!news.inlink.com!not-for-mail From: sangria@inlink.com (Sang K. Choe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:17:28 GMT Organization: InLink Lines: 36 Message-ID: <32f8a413.1556942734@mambo> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: sangria.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55520 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183781 comp.sys.mac.system:195464 comp.sys.next.programmer:22235 On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 11:19:22 -0500, maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >In article <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org>, Pohl Longsine > wrote: > >> I think, since you were the one that asserted that the PC market >> doesn't want UNIX, that the burden to provide the figures is >> yours. > > Not really, because I did provide strong evidence in the form of NT. >NT's POSIX support has either been muted or removed entirely in 4.0 (along >with support for OS/2 text mode programs and OS/2's HPFS disk format as >well) and yet no one said a thing. What? NT 4.0 still supports POSIXs and OS/2 1.3 non-PM applications. POSIX support is still built in otherwise, you need to explain to me how some of my POSIX utilities are able to run. OS/2 support is still built in because NT still offers ways to manipulate the OS/2 1.x subsystem via the Registry--silly to keep that feature in there if they were going to drop the support. As for HPFS, the driver is no longer officially supported. However, you can shoe horn the support back in. Not that it's important, you can run OS/2 subsystem on both FAT and NTFS. The only real use of HPFS was if you were dual booting the system between NT and OS/2. -- Sang. ******************************************************** * Sang K. Choe sangria@inlink.com * * http://sangria.inlink.com/index.html * * finger: sang@sangria.inlink.com * ******************************************************** #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news.stgl.sel.alcatel.de!bln.sel.alcatel.de!news From: suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 29 Jan 1997 09:14:51 GMT Organization: Alcatel SEL AG Berlin Lines: 31 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5cn4eb$38q@slbh00.bln.sel.alcatel.de> References: <5cm58i$fq6@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de NNTP-Posting-Host: slbp19.bln.sel.alcatel.de Matthew Clay writes > My point above was that a great many problems do not require generality that > Smalltalk and Objective-C both offer _and_ impose. The greatest feature of ======================= > C++ is you pay for what you use. You get to decide how much abstraction a ================================ > problem requires to solve cleanly, not the system. You have total control > which, perhaps in the hands of beginner, may be too much control. But then > that's the philosophy of C isn't it? To criticize C++ for being too powerful, =================== > and offering too many features, is like criticizing PhotoShop because it's =============================== > too power and has too many features. The problem with C++ is that it offers too many features while being not powerful enough, more than than, it is really weak. You pay for what you don't get. I don't mean features when I say "you don't get it with C++", I mean design choices, software modularity and flexibility. Read that B. Cox book! I'm really tired of all that C++ discussion (at work, not in the netnews), because it eats up alot of time and possibilities. C++ is the hardest barrier on the way towards objects in programming, it permanently prevents people from concentrating on the real issues and writing good software. The only hope I have is that it seems to get to an end now. Yours, ------------------------ Ralf.Suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 21:42:30 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32EEC726.B7EE739@screaming.org> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195486 comp.sys.next.programmer:22237 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183851 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55540 Maury Markowitz wrote: > Charles William Swiger wrote: > > > If Apple developed an OpenStep implementation of their own, rather than > > just paying royalties, etc for NeXT's OPENSTEP implementation, Apple > > would _own_ their code and implementation. They wouldn't owe NeXT a > > dime, since OpenStep is an "open standard". > > And that will allow them to sell it on other platforms? I think not. It's true. Caldera could hire a few programmers to implement OpenStep, make sure it passes the compliancy suite, and then sell it with their Linux distribution for whatever price the market would bear. I'm not kidding. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:24:06 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 110 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22238 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183858 comp.sys.mac.system:195494 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55543 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 28-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >>>> Correct. > [snip] >> Look, I'm not interested in defending a strawman position you've created >> yourself. Did I ever say that computers should not do what people tell >> them too? > > Yes, as a matter of fact. You agreed with a statement by saying > "Correct." at the first line there, and the statement I made was exactly > that. That "Correct" was part of this statement: CWS> Correct. A multiuser computer system has conventions for where you CWS> should place common files (like applications, fonts, and other such CWS> resources) which are supposedly intended for use by all users. MM> Well that about says it all. Computers should not do what we tell them MM> to, it should be the other way around and that's completely logical. Those two statements >>>NOT<<< identical. You deliberately removed the rest of what I said! You also conveniently ignored my point that conventions are created by humans, and not by computers. Do us all a favor, Maury-- stop trying to distort what I've said in such a contrived fashion. (A) You aren't fooling anyone, and (B) I've already had more than enough experience with revisionists on Usenet to not want to deal with it ever again. >> Under a multiuser MacOS machine, how can one user double-click on that >> document and have it open in Word, while another user can double-click >> that precise same document (without changing any attribute of that >> document) and have it open in some other word processor? > > Use MEO, the prefs are stored locally. For single machine/multiuser > situation you have the same problem and I'd love to hear what resources > the Mac provides for mapping this on a per folder basis. Are you asking me or Usenet in general? It sounds like you do not have an answer for the case of a single multiuser machine. >> Maybe we should get rid of directories, too, and just have all of the >> files in one flat data space? Why did we ever come up with conventions >> to organize things in the first place? > > Now who's creating strawmen? You've been telling us all how filesystem conventions for the structure of directories is bad, and how the MacOS lets you put files whereever you want to which is good. >>> _empirical_? No. >> >> That speaks for itself. > > That's right, I trust test results and numbers. You obviously don't understand what the word means. Webster's sez: em-pir-i-cal \-i-kel\ also em-pir-ic \-ik\ adj 1: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory 2: originating in or based on observation or experience (empirical data) 3: capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment (empirical laws) Go find your own dictionary and look it up. >> I've run one too many beta test programs to not appreciate the value of >> real-world feedback > > Real world feedback is not empirical because it can be quantified. Oh, god. Could someone else explain this to Maury? He apparently isn't listening when I show him that he's completely wrong. For example: If I count the number of users who report a problem with a certain aspect of a program, I've just quantified real-world feedback. [ ... ] >> You made an existential claim-- that out of all of the hundreds of Macs >> you were familiar with, none of them had filesystem conventions. From >> this, you implicitly generalized that all Macs do not have such >> conventions, so Pohl's argument was therefore incorrect. > > No actually I was countering your claim that everyone that runs such > systems has such standards. Go look up the previous articles. > In fact I can now raise that (with a little > reflection) to something on the order of 1000 Macs, none of which I know > of have defined places in which to place files. > > Your claim: most networks do this > My claim: hogwash My claim was that "most networks _that_ _I_ _personally_ _have_ _experience_ _with_ 'do this'." I have never once made a claim that all computers in the world 'do this', or even that most computers 'do this'. Sigh, -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:29:32 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <5c4as9$4m2@duke.squonk.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22239 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183863 comp.sys.mac.system:195497 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55545 In article <5c4as9$4m2@duke.squonk.net>, Garance A Drosehn wrote: > "OpenStep on WindowsNT" is a product that runs upon an already- > existing operating system, which is to say, WindowsNT. OpenStep > itself does not include (it the specification) anything about Unix > utilities. Yup. > WindowsNT, the operating system (or environment, whatever) includes > many tools similiar to the tools in the land of Unix. Yup. > Thus, OpenStep > did not include Unix utilities. Yup. > However, in the case of Rhapsody, there is no already-existing > operating system. Yup. > There are no tools which already exist. Thus, > if you do not use the unix utilities from something like NeXTSTEP, > you will have to get them from somewhere else. Yup. > Where do you propose to get them? I haven't. > As near as I can tell, you are proposing that someone develops > some libraries which reimplement all the same utilities. This > might well produce a superior result, but it won't do that by > the time WWDC rolls around. Yup. > Note that I'm serious that I want the abilities which happen to be > in the unix utilities, and I want Rhapsody released this year. Me too. I also want it to get better in the future. > you have an alternate source for all these utilities, one which > will not delay Rhapsody, that might well be fine with me (depending > on how good the replacement is, I guess). However, I think your > position would be much more crediable if you could point at a > specific alternate source for all these utilities. Hmmm, I don't know if I can, although Be provides many of them in it's OS. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!news.texas.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.124.68.65!newsfeed.gte.net!cust92.max27.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net!user From: ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 11:20:37 -0700 Organization: Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust92.max27.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11178 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3793 comp.sys.next.programmer:22240 > >> which BTW means having function overloading because operators > >> by definition are functions. > > > > No. Operator overloading is NOT a subset of function overloading. > > Operators on objects are methods, which are not functions, at least in > > Objective-C. (Note that "function overloading" refers to C functions, > > not mathematical ones.) Which is actually making my point. "Operators" are by definition "functions" in the mathematical sense. You then responded to me in the context of Objective C. There is a substantial schism between people whose profession is writing code vs. those who write code to get a job done, e.g., mathematicians and engineers. Many times, the output of the latter moves into the domain of the former, especially as the power of PCs (in the generic sense) continues to increase. For example, I have often seen relatively new programmers dismiss the need for FORTRAN compilers. They have no concept of the vast libraries of FORTRAN code that runs much of the engineering world today and keeps the rest of the world running. One of the big advantages of C++ (e.g., over FORTRAN or C) is the ability to take the abstract mathematical concept of an "operator" and implement it in code in a way that is still recognizable. Galois fields and complex numbers may be considered highly specialized to some professional shrink-wrap application programmers, but they are very basic in many engineering areas. IMHO, giving that up is a giant step backwards. -- G. Gordon Apple, PhD The Ed4U Project Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Redondo Beach, CA ga@ed4u.com www.ed4u.com #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!fdn.fr!r2d2.fdn.org!free.fdn.fr!news From: Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org Subject: Re: mmap/munmap under mach Message-ID: Sender: news@free.fdn.fr Organization: Fabien Roy Consultant. X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <32E98C21.2568@friday.com> <1997Jan24.113948.592@gamelan.shnet.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:38:53 GMT Lines: 69 FYI here is my workaround: /* * @(#)map.c 1.0 of 20 December 1996 * * Copyright (c) 1996 by Fabien Roy. * Written by Fabien Roy and Robert Ehrlich. * Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.fr Robert.Ehrlich@inria.fr * Not derived from licensed software. * * Permission is granted to anyone to use this software for any * purpose on any computer system, and to redistribute it freely, * subject to the following restrictions: * * 1. The author is not responsible for the consequences of use of * this software, no matter how awful, even if they arise * from defects in it. * * 2. The origin of this software must not be misrepresented, either * by explicit claim or by omission. * * 3. Altered versions must be plainly marked as such, and must not * be misrepresented as being the original software. * */ #include #include #include #include caddr_t mmap(caddr_t addr, size_t len, int prot, int flags, int fd, off_t off) { int pagelessone = getpagesize() -1; int size; caddr_t pageaddress; /* round to next page size */ size = (len + pagelessone) & ~pagelessone; /* allocate aligned pages */ if (!(pageaddress = (caddr_t) valloc(size))) return (caddr_t) -1; /* map it */ if (syscall(SYS_mmap, pageaddress, size, prot, flags, fd, off)){ free(pageaddress); return (caddr_t) -1; } return pageaddress; } void munmap(caddr_t addr, size_t len) { syscall(SYS_munmap,addr,len); free(addr); } -- Fabien Roy --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted) Fabien Roy Consultant NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA 10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23 Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90 GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.fast.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 12:23:05 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5cken1$6co@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22242 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55556 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183884 comp.sys.mac.system:195512 In article <5cken1$6co@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Yeah, and how long is it going to be before Be has even _close_ to the > number of utilities functions Unix has, neatly modularized in OOP > libraries. Most of it's done as far as I can tell. > A long, long, _long_ time. And a lot of the current Be > utilities are actually Unix ones running under POSIX emulation. Uhh, not really unless you look at raw numbers. In most applications the only "traditional" calls you'll typically see will be to streams, everything else is handled by new OOPS based APIs, including file handling. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-angers.fr!ciril.fr!loria.fr!usenet From: colnet@loria.fr (Dominique Colnet) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.eiffel Subject: Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks Date: 29 Jan 1997 11:29:59 GMT Organization: CRIN & INRIA-Lorraine - Nancy - FRANCE Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5cncbn$nq6@muller.loria.fr> References: <1997Jan3.081621.1@eisner> <5ajc89$r1s@nntp1.apple.com> <32CD396A.3DC@exnext.com> <1997Jan3.154332.1@eisner> <5b0uh1$lqc@priv-sys04-le0.telusplanet.net> <1997Jan8.171354.1@eisner> <5b1k0n$fr3@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5bkjj6$big@darla.visi.com> <32E6A101.7010@acm.org> <32E85082.37DE@acm.org> <5c9v18$95r@muller.loria.fr> <32ED2290.2DB3@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: gerome.loria.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-newsreader: xrn 8.01 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11181 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3794 comp.sys.next.programmer:22243 comp.lang.eiffel:14308 In article <32ED2290.2DB3@acm.org>, Ian Joyner writes: |> Dominique Colnet wrote: |> >Ian Joyner wrote: |> > |> Perhaps someone should encourage Metrowerks to get together with |> > |> an Eiffel compiler vendor or someone willing to write an Eiffel |> > |> compiler for CW. It sounds like they would be a really good match. |> > |> Having already written an Eiffel compiler in Pascal, I'm willing |> > |> to volunteer. |> > Yes, but it is now time to use Eiffel to write Eiffel compilers :-) |> |> True! But on the machine that I wrote the Eiffel compiler on, the |> compilation system was all done in Pascal, which included lexical |> analysis, parsing, intermediate code, optimization, code generation, |> implementation of lots of the stuff in the "Dragon book". Thus my |> Eiffel "Language Processor" is less than 30,000 lines of Pascal, For information, our SmallEiffel compiler is about 50,000 lines Eiffel source code for about 300 classes. |> which includes generating most of ELKS 95. And yes it does 90% of |> Eiffel, included all of Multiple inheritance with selects, generics, |> etc, etc, and is native code generating. But the compiler support |> stuff accounts for probably 200,000 lines worth. Who says you can't |> do serious stuff in Pascal? Not me ! |> |> In another environment, I would do it in Eiffel. I can probably |> boast having the best Eiffel compiler 'not' on the market today! Yes. To have the best Eiffel compiler on the market, one must do better than SmallEiffel ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------ Dominique COLNET -- Talk Eiffel with SmallEiffel Talk Eiffel C.R.I.N. (Centre de Recherche en Informatique de Nancy) POST: CRIN,BP 239,54506 Vandoeuvre les Nancy Cedex,FRANCE EMAIL: colnet@loria.fr VOICE:+33 0383593079 FAX:+33 0383413079 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!pressimage!news1.isdnet.net!tupelo!news From: Michel Coste Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:35:19 GMT Organization: MiCMAC Lines: 25 Sender: news@micmac.com Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c9g5b$nrl@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E91CBE.56EF@exnext.com> <32E93645.21D43FE@screaming.org> Reply-To: mic@micmac.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp49.mon.hol.fr X-Nntp-Posting-Host: tupelo Cc: pohl@screaming.org X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22244 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55563 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183893 comp.sys.mac.system:195521 This was written in comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system (<32E93645.21D43FE@screaming.org>) by Pohl Longsine: > Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > For instance, Edit.app is found in /NextApps. It's local to each > > machine. If you saved your documents with it, you'd lose access > > to them if you move to another machine. > > A traditional multi-machine environment would have the user's > home directory on an NFS server, with the user authentication > done by a NetInfo or NIS server. The mountpoint for the home > directories would be the same on all the machines so that any > person could walk up to any NeXTstep machine and still get their > own environment and data. A setup where a user could not access > their data when they logged onto another machine is poorly administered. > Well I guess you read it too fast... =:) mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.70.231.3!spstimes.sps.mot.com!newsdist.sps.mot.com!risc.sps.mot.com!ibmoto.com!news From: tim@apple.com (Tim Olson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Number of digits in setDoubleValue: Date: 28 Jan 1997 03:27:00 GMT Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. / Somerset Lines: 25 Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[8230] Message-ID: <5cjrm4$7v9@cerberus.ibmoto.com> References: <5chq67$gdm@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.38.60.33 X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.7@129.38.60.33 Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name. In article <5chq67$gdm@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) writes: > Is there any way to control the number of digits displayed in a textField? > > I am calling: > [fieldMatrix setDoubleValue:(double) value at:2]; > > and it gives at most 6 digits in the display. It also automatically drops to > lower numbers of digits when it can. I don't see anything in > /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/TextField.rtf that mentions control over > digits printed. I would like to be able to fix the number of digits at the The TextFieldCell associated with the TextField inherits methods from the Cell class, one of which is (something like, typing from memory): - setFloatingPointDisplay (BOOL)autoRange: (unsigned)leftDigits: (unsigned)rightDigits At least it did in NeXTSTEP 2.1. -- Tim Olson Apple Computer, Inc. (tim@apple.com) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!blackbush.xlink.net!news.ppp.net!usenet From: Lars Immisch Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:01:30 +0100 Organization: Immisch, Becker & Partner Lines: 34 Message-ID: <32EF3C1A.5648@ibp.de> References: <5clkbh$7s1@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> <5cm58i$fq6@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.163.97.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11183 comp.sys.next.programmer:22246 Matthew Clay wrote: > If everything looks like an object, than you're right, C++ is probably > not the right choice. But how many problems really look that way? One of > the biggest faults of Smalltalk is it's Number hierarchy. From a practical > standpoint, numbers just don't make good objects. First, because we've > been subjected to algebra from grade 8 and on, just don't think of + as > being much like message that you send to a integer object. It's not that > it is an impossible view, just not much like our everyday experience. Second, > it misses out the fact that we often add integers to integers, and often > know this at compile-time. Again, this doesn't mean Smalltalk can't add, > just that it misses some fundamental optimizations (realities). Objective-C > strives for practicality here, leaving purity to Smalltalk. Which Smalltalks Number hierarchy are you talking about? Parcplace or Smalltak V? IMO Parcplace's Number hierarchy is nicely optimized by it's double dispatching strategy. (This implies that ArithmeticValue subclasses have to be abelian, which is not as general as it might be, but heck, thats what optimization is about). So I do not agree that it misses fundamental optimizations. I have often thought that, in contrary to your opinion, the Number hierarchy (of Parcplace's) is one of Smalltalks better features. Where else can you multiply 4 Gig with 2 and still get the correct result? Or express 1/3 correctly? Lars -- mailto:lars@ibp.de http://www.ibp.de/~lars Yesterdays yellow yoyo can make you yawn today #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news.ppp.net!usenet From: Lars Immisch Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ProjectBuilder hurdle Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:26:44 +0100 Organization: Immisch, Becker & Partner Lines: 26 Message-ID: <32EF5014.6DA@ibp.de> References: <5cl64b$jv@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.163.97.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Randy Jackson wrote: [deletia] > When I get to the point of building the code, I get the error: > > invalid option -lang-objc > > But for the life of me, I don't see where I am specifying that > option. Is there a default set of compiler options that PB calls, > (I don't see CFLAGS defined in any of the three makefiles, and the cc man page > doesn't provide any direction). > > Most importantly, what do I need to do to get past this problem? I have no clue why you see this behaviour, but the PB Makefiles include the template ones in /NextDeveloper/Makefiles/app and a set of CFLAGS is defined in common.make. Hope this helps. Lars -- mailto:lars@ibp.de http://www.ibp.de/~lars Yesterdays yellow yoyo can make you yawn today #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!mr.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 17:30:13 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2a16.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55574 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183918 comp.sys.mac.system:195536 comp.sys.next.programmer:22248 In article <5cjhba$54s@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > What about Windows? I really, REALLY don't want Apple to try to put the > entire Windows API into the new MacOS and make it the standard programming > model. Bad news. We have SoftWindows if we need it. Maybe MetroWerks > will port PowerPlant to Windows and we'll have a common API. Or we could > use Java. At any rate, I really don't think a Windows-compatible API is > something Apple should try to work into the system. Good God, no! What a sure recipe for disaster. "Hi folks, we now can offer you General Protection Faults" ;) Total madness, it ain't gonna happen. Nobody buys and sticks with Apple because they want the Windows API... and nobody will buy future Macs for the purpose of getting the Windows API... there is just no chance of this happening. SoftWindows (or something like WABI) will fill whatever minor need is present. People do not _get_ either a Mac or a Unix box to run Windows programs. Those who want that get a Wintel PC, in great numbers. Leave them to it, and work on going beyond what Wintel's capable of. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!news.alt.net!newspost1.alt.net!ehutch From: ehutch@hypnos.norden1.com (E. Hutchinson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,misc.jobs.offered,chi.jobs Subject: NEXTSTEP/Objective C/Career Position/ILL Date: 29 Jan 1997 15:15:58 GMT Organization: Norden 1 Communications Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5cnpje$bc7@tofu.alt.net> X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22249 misc.jobs.offered:1903188 Programmer/analyst NEXTSTEP----------Commercial experience Objective C-------Commercial experience Career Position---Excellent Position Relocation -------Company Assistance Working Conditions-Excellent To Be Considered---Fax resume or mail a hard copy. -- ehutch@norden1.com (419) 893-6367 [fax] Omni Search (419) 893-6334 [voice] 1310 Craig Maumee, Ohio 43537 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: Re: TCL for NeXT (HELP) Date: 29 Jan 97 09:53:04 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <32EEA76D.41C67EA6@oar.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-10-9.access.one.net In-reply-to: "Keith L. Swallow"'s message of Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:27:09 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:24903 comp.sys.next.programmer:22250 comp.sys.next.software:27740 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25088 In article <32EEA76D.41C67EA6@oar.net>, "Keith L. Swallow" writes: I need to find a copy of tcl or instructions for installing tcl 7.6 on a next with nextmach 1.0 .. I know its old... But it is what I have to work with. SO any assistance would be gratfully appreciated. Please just reply to this by mailing me : swallow@oar.net I've posted a copy of tcl7.6 modified to compile under NeXTSTEP3.3 to my home page. Getting it to compile under NS1.0 will likely be a chore, since a lot has happened since then. If you told us what goes wrong when you try to ./configure and compile it, well, then we might be able to help more. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Tom Hageman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Compiler version in newest OS? Date: Tue, 28 Jan 97 22:54:12 +0100 Organization: Warty Wolfs Message-ID: <9701282154.AA05544@basil.icce.rug.nl> Reply-To: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-User: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-Path: obelix.icce.rug.nl!basil.icce.rug.nl!next.mailer X-Authentication-Warning: obelix.icce.rug.nl: uubasil set sender to basil.icce.rug.nl!tom using -f Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.icce.rug.nl/pub/tom/Tom_Hageman@basil.icce.rug.nl.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) Lines: 26 In article <5cigco$bou@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, you wrote: > My understanding is that NeXT's compiler (cc) is comparable (derived from?) > some version of the gnu c compiler. I have NS3.2/3.3 Developer, and am > wondering whether the compiler that comes with 4.0 (or are we up to 4.1?) is > comparable to a more recent gnu compiler. A version number would answer my > question. Is it 2.7.2? Still based on 2.5.8: tom@basil 51) cc -v Reading specs from /lib/m68k/specs NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-478, gcc version 2.5.8 tom@basil 52) hostinfo Mach kernel version: NeXT Mach 4.1: Thu Sep 26 22:54:37 PDT 1996; root(rcbuilder):Objects/mk-183.27.obj~2/RELEASE_M68K The OS/NT (aka OPENSTEP Enterprise) compiler is based on 2.7.2 (or was it 2.6.3? -- memory fails me:-/) -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: ProjectBuilder hurdle Date: 29 Jan 1997 15:56:23 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5cnrv7$ien@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: <5cl64b$jv@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>? <32EF5014.6DA@ibp.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu In-Reply-To: <32EF5014.6DA@ibp.de> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 On 01/29/97, Lars Immisch wrote: >Randy Jackson wrote: >[deletia] >> When I get to the point of building the code, I get the error: >> >> invalid option -lang-objc >> >> But for the life of me, I don't see where I am specifying that >> option. Is there a default set of compiler options that PB calls, >> (I don't see CFLAGS defined in any of the three makefiles, and the cc man page >> doesn't provide any direction). >> >> Most importantly, what do I need to do to get past this problem? > >I have no clue why you see this behaviour, but the PB Makefiles include >the template ones in /NextDeveloper/Makefiles/app and a set of CFLAGS is >defined in common.make. > >Hope this helps. Thanks for the tip, but nowhere in my CFLAGS is -lang-objc defined as an option. In fact, -ObjC is, and that is what PB is recommending in the error message window. Strange. Randy > >Lars > >-- >mailto:lars@ibp.de >http://www.ibp.de/~lars > >Yesterdays yellow yoyo can make you yawn today > -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:52:54 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org> <32f9a559.1557269312@mambo> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55595 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183967 comp.sys.mac.system:195578 comp.sys.next.programmer:22253 In article <32f9a559.1557269312@mambo>, sangria@inlink.com (Sang K. Choe) wrote: > NT 4.0's POSIX subsystem is still quite intact and supported. A large > chunk of the utilities shipped with the ResKit would be useless were > this the case. Sorry, again I am a victim of poor use of a term. I'm not really referring to the POSIX API in this case, but utilities. For instance, nowhere on my drive can be found any of the standard utils - yes I know they are not a part of POSIX. > I would also think the guys over at SoftWay would be rather pissed if > the POSIX subsystem was no longer supported--seeings how some of their > major product lines are designed to work with the existing POSIX > subsystem. SoftWay... the guys that do the Unix compatibility stuff for NT? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!in2p3.fr!usenet From: stage1@bortibm5.in2p3.fr Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: X11toNX programming Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:44:58 +0100 Organization: In2p3 Lines: 7 Message-ID: <32EF9AAA.41C6@bortibm5.in2p3.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: bortibm5.in2p3.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; AIX 1) Hello, I would like to know if somebody has rewritten the libX11 functions in order to work with NeXTSTEP, for exemple, in programming the ImageMagic/libX11_subs.c ? Bye #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 29 Jan 1997 18:40:42 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 206 Message-ID: <5co5ja$lv8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c6s1d$2oh@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22255 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55601 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183980 comp.sys.mac.system:195583 Scott Anguish (sanguish@digifix.com) wrote: : On 01/21/97, William Raphael Hix wrote: : > : >Tar is of great use to Unix users. I use tar on my Unix box to aggregate : >files which I then compress and download to my Mac where Stuffit : >uncompresses and untars them. But most Mac users never encounter tar : >files since Mac software distribution is done by Stuffit/BinHex. : : Yeah, I know, this is one of my major complaints. Stuffit is a : closed system in this respect. Closed? Stuffit opens a much wider range of formats than any Unix utility I've encountered, making it a very good cross-platform tool. Of course that's the payware version. The freeware is merely a decoder for the most common Mac formats. You have to pay for added functionality which most users don't care about. : : >But you expect Rhapsody software distribution to work like NeXTStep? : >Ports of apps from Unix to Rhapsody? This is another of those places : >there the NeXT and Mac community are talking about apples and oranges : >(I apologize for the pun). : > : : Not sure what you mean by this.. : Software for NeXT consists of a strong set of utilities provided by NeXT as part of the OS, a relatively few shrink-wrapped apps, some compiled shareware and a lot of compilable software drawing on NeXT's Unix legacy. NeXT users therefore depend heavily on the core set of utilites which are part of the OS and their Unix derived apps (arriving in tar files). Software for Macs consists of a minimal set of utilities as part of the OS, a large number of shrink-wrapped apps, utilities and shareware, and almost no compilable software. Therefore Apple users expectations include paying additional for higher powered utilities and most of their apps. With Rhapsody, these 2 sets of expectations must be reconciled. From the NeXT side the consensus seems to be much like NeXTStep with a much larger selection of payware. The Mac users expections don't even have Unix legacy apps on the radar. These are the apples and oranges I described above. Note it is possible to reconcile these expectations, but how Apple will choose to do so is an open question. : >But it doesn't do anything for a Mac user since Mac software in not in : >tar format. Perhaps for Rhapsody this will change, but I think that : >you are assuming things which aren't decide yet. : : Sure it does. It gives Apple users a method of dealing with the oft : available tar files on the net. : Currently, those Mac users who need to deal with tar files buy the complete Stuffit. However, almost none do because they never encounter them. Under Rhapsody this might change, if it keeps Unix compatability and if Unix apps are important. While these might be essential to some people, for the majority of Mac users these are not important features so Apple might drop it or make you pay more for it. : >You are taking this too personally. : : You said... : : "The feelings of NeXT users are secondary" : : my reply to that is that you better start to open up, or Apple's : gonna die. There are what a few hundred thousand NeXT users, barely supporting a company much smaller than Apple. While Apple would love to have these people, particularly those in enterprise, they need to attract their current users if they are going to make a go of it. : >I'm not trying to rain on you parade. : >Apple has said they will continue to support OpenStep on Intel and : >Solaris, but I haven't heard anything clear from them about future : >development, either as Rhapsody on other hardware or independently. : : Then you should be reading the letter that Dr. Gil now has on NeXT's : WWW site. : I did read the letter. I found Apple's careful wording to leave as much undecided as it explained. Apple has pledged to continue support and development for OpenStep Developer and Enterprise (but no mention of User which I found odd), so current Next users would seemingly be at least as well off as they were. Apple has also said that the OpenStep API will be a core part of Rhapsody and that apps written to the API will work under Rhapsody. This might be all the compatability NeXT users get. Since the API interacts directly with the kernal, most of the /bin parts of Unix aren't necessary for the API. Apple has not said that Rhapsody will be based on or compatible with OpenStep/Mach. It could be that this has not been fully decided. If they change to a different kernal, replacing the full BSD layer is additional work. Since the API access the kernal directly, the full BSD layer is only necessary for Unix compatibility, which Apple might decide is unimportant or they might decide that users should pay more for Unix compatibility. Current Mac users pay for such aditional features. I expect that this issue will become clearer once Apple settles on a kernal. Hopefully then they'll start filling in the outline of Rhapsody. Apple has also not pledged to bring Rhapsody to other hardware. Hancock had hinted about the possibility, but nothing solid has come out. Apple could intend to develop Rhapsody and OpenStep in parallel in which case Rhapsody might never make it to Intel hardware. Apple might also make Rhapsody the basis of NeXTStep 5. I doubt that the final decision has been made. Over the next year, as they wrestle Rhapsody into existance on the Mac, they'll have plenty of time to thrash out their other options. : : >Infoworld suggests that wrangling over these options is delaying : >fundamental choices like which kernal to bring to Rhapsody. : : Yeah, well, you gotta fill that print space. And just because you don't like it means it can't be true. Of course all such news should be taken with a grain of salt. But there has to be some reason that Apple hasn't presented more info to developers about where they're going now that it's a month after the purchase. : >The 1% number is based on estimates of Linux installations on PCs. Perhaps : >it should be a few %. It sounds like you really want Rhapsody to be a : >cheap Unix, like a supported Linux. : : You're wrong. : : What I want is for Apple to take the best of what it has to offer, : and the best of what OpenStep has to offer (rich framework, EOF, WOF, : preemptive multi-tasking, etc...) and make the best, most openly compatible : system available. Like the rest of us, you want to have your cake and eat it too. Apple might decide that your flavor of cake is not popular enough. Or more likely they'll sell you your more exotic flavor at a higher price. : >Mac users install Mac versions of : >servers. Some are free, some cost money but are supported. If you want : >Linux, get Linux. Don't ask millions of Mac users to accept Linux. : : I'm not. What I'm asking is don't cripple the OS just to save 20 Mb : of install space. Microsoft and Apple both now sell millions of copies of OS's which to your definition are crippled. If Apple thinks that they can better position Rhapsody in the market place sans Unix compatibility, they'll do it. They've guaranteed a modern OS using the OpenStep API to replace the ToolBox. I hope that they also include Unix compatibility but I won't be surprised if I have to pay more for it. : : >: Will Apple prohibit compiling and distribution of find then? Who : >: gets hurt by Apple including it? : >: : >: And what if someone writes a really cool freeware utility that uses : >: find... do they have to supply it? : > : >Of course Apple will not prohibit or inhibit distribution of any software. : >Apple just won't support it. I can just imagine calls to Apple which : >get answered, "Well you need to add -print to tell it to print the list of : >files it finds." Use at your own risk. : : I doubt that Apple does that with A/UX. Apple never tried to sell A/UX to their entire user base. People who bought A/UX were much more technically savy than the intended audience of Rhapsody. : >Personally, I'd love Unix compatibility in my Mac, so all the Unix : >skills I have at work could be put to better use at home. But Apple : >isn't pushing Rhapsody for us tech-heads, it's got to appeal to a wider : >base that couldn't care less about Unix compatibility. : : Not having it and not using it are entirely different things. Of course, but Apple has a long history of making people pay for functionality beyond its definition of basic. I doubt Apple will see Unix compatibility as basic (surveys of the prosps of Rhapsody indicate a profound apathy towards it), so it might very well be an add-on, perhaps one you have to buy. : >Last time I heard OpenStep was far from free. It really sounds like you : >want Linux. I doubt you'll be happy with the outcome, because the OS is : >going to cost > $100 with or without complete BSD. : > : : No, what I want is OpenStep/Rhapsody. But crippling power users for : the purpose of protecting the naive (instead of altering the method they : would use or be able to access the dangerous stuff) is stupid. : : As I said, I don't have anything against commercial products, hell, : its the market I'm in. I have no doubt that Apple will ship Rhapsody, fully compliant with the OpenStep API, for $100-200 dollars, giving power users access to all the features of the expanded API. I think that the open questions are "How much will Rhapsody be like OpenStep/Mach, and how much it'll cost to make it so?" Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Looking for Examples Date: 29 Jan 1997 15:45:38 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5cnrb2$eki@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: at138@solarium.cs.buap.mx In Briones Garcia Jorge Alfonso wrote: > > I am learning to programming in NEXTSTEP 3.1. > I am looking for examples, if you have some please send > to me. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated... > Thanks. > See the MiscKit from next-ftp.peak.org This includes thousands of lines of source code See NeXT's mini-examples ftp.next.com See the /NeXTDeveloper/Examples directory #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 29 Jan 1997 11:09:30 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5cnsnq$sq6@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11187 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3802 comp.sys.next.programmer:22257 In article , ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) wrote: > One of the big advantages of C++ (e.g., over > FORTRAN or C) is the ability to take the abstract mathematical concept of > an "operator" and implement it in code in a way that is still > recognizable. In fact, that's just about the only reason I would find C++ useful. > Galois fields and complex numbers may be considered highly > specialized to some professional shrink-wrap application programmers, but > they are very basic in many engineering areas. IMHO, giving that up is a > giant step backwards. Giving up operator overloading is a giant step backwards, for those in engineering areas. For those in other areas, C++ is a giant step backwards. Should've campaigned for operator overloading in FORTRAN 90. (Or is it in there? It's been a while since I looked at it. I don't remember it being in there.) -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:27:38 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <32EF0661.6A64@etm.co.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183995 comp.sys.mac.system:195591 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55607 comp.sys.next.programmer:22258 In article <32EF0661.6A64@etm.co.at>, Guenter Szolderits wrote: > The POSIX subsystem of Windows NT is only POSIX.1, which does'nt include > any POSIX commands. Some POSIX commands are part of the Windows NT > Resource Kit, which must be purchased separately. Thank you for the clarification. > I consider the POSIX subsystem of Windows NT as useless. You can get > much better utilities (even for porting Unix programs to NT) from third > party vendors. Many of whom advertize in BackOffice it seems. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:11:12 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 73 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22259 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183996 comp.sys.mac.system:195592 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55608 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > That "Correct" was part of this statement: Which was agreeing with an _earlier_ statement, which you didn't quote. > Those two statements >>>NOT<<< identical. You deliberately removed the > rest of what I said! You also conveniently ignored my point that > conventions are created by humans, and not by computers. The context of the argument is that it's OK to have the computers define where certain file types can be stored because that's quite "natural". I've been saying it's not. > Do us all a favor, Maury-- stop trying to distort what I've said in such > a contrived fashion. As soon as you stop redefining every term used. > already had more than enough experience with revisionists on Usenet to Colour me surprised. > Are you asking me or Usenet in general? You. I'm asking YOU what resources the machines YOU run have for matching document types to applications based on that document's location. I would like to know how your file location "standards" solve the problem you posed to me in which the location of the file then defines which application is used with it. > You've been telling us all how filesystem conventions for the structure > of directories is bad, and how the MacOS lets you put files whereever > you want to which is good. I think it is. I think the limitations imposed on this by the System Folder is just that, an imposition. Perhaps a needed one, but an imposition none the less. More examples of this would be worse. > 1: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard > for system and theory This is of course the definition that is most often applied, as in empirical vs. quantitative evidence. If you wish to redefine that term as well to be (2) or (3), be my guest, but don't "hammer" me for using the most common definition. > For example: If I count the number of users who report a problem with a > certain aspect of a program, I've just quantified real-world feedback. ^^^^^^^^^^ Agreed. What portion exactly did you think I was disagreeing with? > Go look up the previous articles. I did. > My claim was that "most networks _that_ _I_ _personally_ _have_ > _experience_ _with_ 'do this'." I have never once made a claim that all > computers in the world 'do this', or even that most computers 'do this'. That's certainly not how it read, nor how you used it in the argument. This particular portion of the thread stated after another Mac user expressed concern that the NeXT OS required you to place certain files in particular places, something he appeared to be uncomfortable with. After a chain of messages you implied that this was quite natural behaviour, and that your computers had such a standard. I have been repeatedly stating that what you do is fine, but that I don't want that on _my_ machine, I want to put the files where I wish. Now who's being revisionist? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 29 Jan 1997 11:19:10 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5cnt9u$tgi@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11188 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3803 comp.sys.next.programmer:22260 In article , ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) wrote: > There is a substantial schism between people > whose profession is writing code vs. those who write code to get a job > done, e.g., mathematicians and engineers. I forgot to mention this in the last post, but I find that statement highly insulting. The implication is that only mathematicians and engineers write code "to get a job done". ALL programmers write code to get a job done. Are you implying that non-engineering applications aren't real work? Not everyone's problem domain is limited to engineering code. Note that here I am speaking as someone who has done numerical analysis and scientific computing, on supercomputers, in FORTRAN, as well as written Mathematica libraries which use (Mathematica's equivalent of) operator overloading. Operator overloading is almost a necessity when working with mathematical expressions -- I would not want to do without it in that case -- but I feel its inclusion in a general-purpose programming language such as C++ is not generally worth the problems it causes, especially because of what it does to code readability in large software engineering projects. Operator overloading _improves_ code readability in mathematical domains, but usually harms it in other domains where operations do not map to C++ operator symbols in a canonical way. It's a case of giving programmers too much rope to hang themselves by. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!gnus.wildfire.com!usenet From: tone@wildfire.com (Tone ) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 29 Jan 1997 19:07:36 GMT Organization: Wildfire Communications, Inc. Lines: 58 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5co75o$2e@gnus.wildfire.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: moocow.wildfire.com >In article <5b52nv$39e@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: >> * C++ has all these nifty features (syntactic sugar) that I can use >> to increase my productivity. Too bad that the next guy that comes >> along--to maintain my code--can't figure out what the hell I did. >> Most Objective-C code is very nearly self documenting. The simpler >> designs mean the maintenance guys can come in and quickly find and fix >> problems. If there are any. You could argue that good and bad >> programming styles affect this comparison--and yes they sure do--but >> C++ promotes arcane usage and bad style because of its haphazard >> design whereas Objective-C does a lot to help promote good design. >> Plus, how many syntax elements does C++ add to C? Has anyone ever >> sat down and counted? Compare Objective-C's number--I think it is >> in the _teens_. So which is going to be easier to debug? I agree, and I think many people who studied C++ very closely do, too. Java backs away from many of C++'s needless complexities. I'm not pointing to Java as a perfect language, but as one that received a lot of thought by people willing to make serious decisions (e.g.: removing the pre-processor) who had GREAT experience and knowledge of how C++ had attempted to improve the task of software authoring and maintenance. I call C++ a "gutter language" :) I've been using it for about 4 years, but probably not expertly. I think nearly all C++ programmers are under-achieving in their work in part because of the complexity of the language. C++'s great benefits, IMHO (not all are language-based, but reflect it's history and broad acceptance): the // comment GREAT STUFF, SERIOUSLY! Anything that makes adequate commenting simpler to do must be applauded its OO nature Again, I do not think C++ is a great OO language. But the fact that it IS an OO language is worthy of respect, given that it succeeded so broadly. Thank you C++! C++'s problems: Complexity! Multiple inheritance. Need the behavior, I agree, but this approach (while pure) introduces SO MANY issues of object footprint and function binding that it is a terrible loss in the end. The "interface" hack of Objective C and Java is so simple that its less pure nature is really easy to excuse. References and pointers. Why have both? They are essentially the same thing! I'm probably missing something here... Templates. Wow, is this a complex bastard son of the macro. Seems pasted on, to me. Operator overloading. This is really cool! It is also incredibly counter-productive to making large software projects drawing on code from various component providers (the kind of software OO is meant to support) impossible. "What does THIS plus sign do?" is not a question a programmer should ever ask himself. tone #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:00:20 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195593 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:183997 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55609 comp.sys.next.programmer:22262 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 28-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> If Apple developed an OpenStep implementation of their own, rather than >> just paying royalties, etc for NeXT's OPENSTEP implementation, Apple >> would _own_ their code and implementation. They wouldn't owe NeXT a >> dime, since OpenStep is an "open standard". > > And that will allow them to sell it on other platforms? I think not. Really? If Apple developed their own OpenStep implementation for NT themselves, what prevents them from selling that environment to NT users? (Under the context that Apple didn't buy NeXT, of course.) >> In order to keep NeXT's customer list, Apple needs to provide an >> operating system, development environment, and so forth which is >> comparible to the functionality of NeXT's current products. > > And they wouldn't be able to get any of them unless they > first purchased it. Agreed. Apple started with a reasonably friendly user interface back in 1984. They've done okay on the strength of being user-friendly, but they've had 12+ years during which the they've only managed to make their OS cooperatively multitasking. Apple failed to write an OS which was powerful enough and stable enough to appeal to MCCA customers. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 28 Jan 1997 18:37:19 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 46 Message-ID: <5clh0v$qbl$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: maury@softarc.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55612 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184012 comp.sys.mac.system:195601 comp.sys.next.programmer:22263 In Maury Markowitz wrote: > In article <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org>, Pohl Longsine > wrote: > > > I think, since you were the one that asserted that the PC market > > doesn't want UNIX, that the burden to provide the figures is > > yours. > > Not really, because I did provide strong evidence in the form of NT. > NT's POSIX support has either been muted or removed entirely in 4.0 (along > with support for OS/2 text mode programs and OS/2's HPFS disk format as > well) and yet no one said a thing. > > Then in order to _support_ the claim that Unix is wanted on the PC > world, Linux was offered. Unfortunately no numbers were provided with it. > Take a look at SCO's Unix offerings. They started off with a Unix clone (Xenix) that was practically the only PC unix option, and the demand was strong enough that they eventually bought the intellectual propperty of Unix. They're a strong growing company with a significant portion of the Unix market. And they only deploy on the PC. Next, take a look at the stats for web servers.. (No, I don't have them to give you, but I have seen them in the past .. and you can probably find them yourself). A significant portion of the web servers out there are based on linux, freebsd, or netbsd. And NONE of the commercial platforms are putting a significant dent in that.. including non-Unix PCs. Third, take a look at the volume of diskspace devoted to Linux and *Bsd archives. These wouldn't exist if there was a near zero interest in Unix on the PC... and there are growing and thriving business based on those free PC Unices.. that wouldn't happen if there wasn't a demand in the PC marketplace for Unix (though, that may be the tail wagging the dog.. Probably some of that is Unix people going to the PC because the PC has free Unices). You don't need hard numbers to see that this is true. The information above wouldn't be true if there wasn't such a demand. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.magg.net!news.bridge.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:24:59 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 7 Message-ID: References: <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5cmmkd$q4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55615 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184016 comp.sys.mac.system:195605 comp.sys.next.programmer:22264 In article <5cmmkd$q4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > They don't want the Mac either, apparently. Apparently? I think it's a good bet. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 29 Jan 1997 16:34:00 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5cnu5o$eus@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@cs NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22265 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55618 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184019 comp.sys.mac.system:195607 Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@exnext.com) wrote: : Andy Templeman wrote: : > : > Apple already sell Unix boxes for people who want to run Unix servers. : > You can buy today a Network server 700 which runs AIX. How will Apple be : > exposing themselves to a new market by offering a second unix operating : > system? : : What about people who want Unix, but not a server? There are : lots of people running Unix as a workstation OS. They'd love : to have lots of polished productivity apps. Right now, if : they want them, they've got to go to NT. : : There's a huge difference between offering Yet Another Unix (AIX, : or A/UX) and offering a robust, user-friendly Unix which runs lots : of useful, polished applications. : Unfortunately, the number of users who want a Unix OS and productivity apps is small (even though it includes me 8-)). Apple would be better served concentrating on larger markets, like content development, publishing, and the like, where the Apple name on a robust, stable and fast OS will quickly gain favor. Hopefully, we Unix users will get what we want, but I'm not holding my breath. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 11:27:03 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5clj2q$76p@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5cmmpi$11g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22266 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55624 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184031 comp.sys.mac.system:195616 In article <5cmmpi$11g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > Ok, let's see... it has a complete lib for file access, including > > documents and databases, as well as supporting powerful searching, sorting > > and information extraction from any of the objects in the data store. It > > has a complete string manipulation library too. Development is handled by > > CodeWarrior, so a lot of those utilities aren't needed. It seems we're > > down to some of the networking daemons now. > > Uh huh. Go look around the bin directories of a Unix system sometime. Right, and I find the same thing. This is the _point_, Be has recreated much of this, something Chuck claims is practically impossible and no one should waste their time on. > You'd be surprised. And a lot of them are used by higher-level scripts > without you even knowing about them, rather than directly. Code coverage numbers please. Regardless many do specific one off functions that could be portions of a single object. cat would be a good example. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:43:38 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 79 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184038 comp.sys.mac.system:195624 comp.sys.next.programmer:22267 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55626 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > When I write commercial software, OO is useful for about 80% of the code. Ok, good. > If by "consistency" you mean that I have to use the "best solution for > most problems" for every problem, then no. That's not what I mean. I mean when you are writing that 80% of the code that is OO based, you'd likely want to keep it that way. > I have no interest in developing software for a lowest common > demoninator Quite the opposite, I believe this allows for newer code that's better than currently prodivide. > which does not understand fork() and exec(). That's not what I was talking about, I was talking about the _way_ you call it. > No. I have better things to do with my programming time than trudge > through slime trying to write functional code in the abscence of a > reasonable operating system which provides a reasonable development > environment and reasonable library routines. Who said anything about lacking library routines? You'll have more, and perhaps better ones. > OpenStep demands a certain baseline functionality from the operating > system. Windows NT and Unix systems provide that. Windows 95 is > somewhat iffy, but adequate. Windows 3.1 and the MacOS aren't > adequate-- they don't provide enough functionality (eg, preemptive > multitasking for the machd to service Mach messages in time) to support > an OpenStep implementation. Uhhh, and? My point was not to select a single OS, but to show that more code is better than less code in this case. > As for the context switching overhead, if there is a system where > switching between processes is faster than switching between threads in > one process, you're looking at a completely broken thread implementation. That is indeed what I was referring to, and you seem to have it reversed. > Gee, could it be that you were batting well above average in this > particular case, and that someone could easily find other articles where > you didn't do nearly as well? So that's what this thread is for you now? A "count the times I find something wrong in a Maury post"? > > I see. So if I delete, say, grep, off of my hard drive, Unix stops > > working? > > Yes: No, only if there's no grep-stub calling the new code. Who's suggesting that? > I don't see how that matters at all. Grep is used by the operating > system to perform essential functionality. So, does that mean it _should_? > Those are nice goals. The existence of the Unix CLI utilities on a > system does not prevent any of these goals from occurring. I agree, but it doesn't help any. > In fact, I think tools like grep make programming easier, and they make > the system easier to use. And both would be even _easier_ too. But hey, if you think they're good enough, who am I to tell you different? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!basement.replay.com!not-for-mail From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Tar vs. Stuffit [was Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!!] Date: 29 Jan 1997 20:04:03 +0100 Organization: Replay and Company UnLimited Lines: 33 Sender: replay@basement.replay.com Message-ID: <5co6v3$6b3@basement.replay.com> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <32E70F28.48B8@friday.com> <5c4rhc$o1k@ccpnws.in2p3.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: basement.replay.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-XS4ALL-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:06:07 MET X-URL: http://www.replay.com/remailer/ X-001: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting X-002: Report misuse of this automated service to Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22268 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55627 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184039 comp.sys.mac.system:195625 In article , dea@astral.magic.ca (Don Andrachuk) wrote: > In article , > jdoherty@ix.netcom.com (John Doherty) wrote: > > >In article <5c4rhc$o1k@ccpnws.in2p3.fr>, mullere@in2p3.fr (Eric Muller) wrote: > > > >| Bill Bumgarner (bbum@friday.com) wrote: > >| (some stuff deleted) > >| : If anything, Aladdin should release a version of Stuffit that can be > >| : used from the command line... I'd certainly pay for a tool that give me > >| : random access to my archives, a full-featured GUI w/drag-n-drop, and a > >| : comparably featured command line utility. > >| > >| If you use MPW you can have the Stuffit tools, they come with Stuffit > Deluxe. > > > >But the v3.5 tools, at least, are incomplete (I don't have StuffIt 4): > >can't add to an existing archive, can't extract fewer than all the files > >from an archive, can't even list the contents of an archive. > > *All* of those things are possible with version 4. Not only that, but > Aladdin's True Finder Integration control panel provides these features > completely transparently at the Finder. > > -- > Don Andrachuk > DEA Systems Stuffit Lite 3.05 had an OK applescript interface. (It was removed from 3.5 and later versions of Stuffit Lite) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!nic.win.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:28:34 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <5cmmpi$11g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5co4fc$8n4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22269 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55630 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184042 comp.sys.mac.system:195628 In article <5co4fc$8n4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > For sufficiently small definitions of "much". Maybe so, but on the other hand portions of their OS is much richer than anything offered in "standard" Unixen that I am aware of. Their file/document system is a certainly one good example, volumes are simply large databases storing objects. I think this is something I'd like to see in the future NeXT OS as well. Hey, at least they're trying. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.bln.de!mind.de!bolzen.in-berlin.de!news.all.de!IN-Berlin.DE!fub!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:10:04 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 41 Message-ID: <5catts$508@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E8F5E9.2620@nowhere.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11190 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3806 comp.sys.next.programmer:22270 In article <32E8F5E9.2620@nowhere.com>, none wrote: > Nathan M. Urban wrote: > > [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:i withObject:obj2]; > > [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:j withObject:obj1]; > > [obj1 release]; // decrement the reference count > I can think of another reason why C++ took off, rather than Objective-C: > That looks nothing like C. Thank goodness. I hate the C++ method-calling syntax. That probably is one of the reasons, though. I think that having a different syntax is a pretty poor reason not to learn a language, but I'm sure many C programmers did feel more comfortable with C++'s syntax. Too bad Java made the same mistake. > I have never coded in pure C, but I'd say that the fact that C++ can > look like C must have made the transition less scary for many people. I suppose. Once you get used to Obj-C's syntax, though, a lot of people like it better. It makes it clearer that you are sending a message to and object rather than accessing a structure field or calling a function (which you are NOT doing), and lets you alternate pieces of the method name with the parameters it takes. I prefer [anArray replaceObjectAtIndex:i withObject:obj2]; to anArray.replaceObjectAtIndex_withObject(i,obj2); or anArray.replace(i,obj2); even if the latter is shorter, because the former is more readable. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!130.211.50.75!inet-prime.comshare.com!not-for-mail From: alanf@izzy.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Broken Pipe? Date: 29 Jan 1997 17:38:10 GMT Organization: "Comshare, Inc." Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5co1u2$kpn$1@inet-prime.comshare.com> Reply-To: alanf@izzy.net NNTP-Posting-Host: blackbird.comshare.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) In the 3.2 developer environment, I'm working on an app that redirects the stdin and stdout from a shell process to pipes, that in turn are connected to text objects. I've used a similar program in the Garfinkel/Mahoney book as reference. The shell's stdout is connected to fromProcess[1], the end of the pipe fromProcess[0] is being watched by DPSWatchFD (3.2, remember?). DPSWatchFD calls a printer function that messages the text object. This appears to work fine... the arguments I pass the shell via execv are echoed back, and appear in the text object. The other text object delegates to a method that writes to the pipe toProcess[1]... the other end of the pipe should be connected to the stdin of the shell: ------code fragment------------------------------------- syslog(1,"hello from child process"); close(0); /* stdin */ close(1); /* stdout */ close(toProcess[1]); close(fromProcess[0]); syslog(1,"reassigning stdin and stdout"); dup2(toProcess[0], 0); /* stdin */ dup2(fromProcess[1], 1); /* stdout */ close(2); /* stderr */ dup2(fromProcess[1], 2); /* stderr */ execv(argv[0], argv); -------------------------------------------------------------- The shell script should (and initially does) simply echos to stdout whatever comes in on stdin. The debugger indicates whatever I type into the "inbound" text object is making it to the pipe, however I receive nothing coming back from the other pipe. I believe I've traced everything I can with the debugging tools, the other side of the pipes are inaccessible. Any thoughts on how to sort this one out? Please cc: any responses to my email. Regards, Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 29 Jan 1997 13:21:32 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5co4fc$8n4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5cmmpi$11g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22272 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55644 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184071 comp.sys.mac.system:195643 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5cmmpi$11g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > > Ok, let's see... it has a complete lib for file access, including > > > documents and databases, as well as supporting powerful searching, sorting > > > and information extraction from any of the objects in the data store. It > > > has a complete string manipulation library too. Development is handled by > > > CodeWarrior, so a lot of those utilities aren't needed. It seems we're > > > down to some of the networking daemons now. > > Uh huh. Go look around the bin directories of a Unix system sometime. > Right, and I find the same thing. This is the _point_, Be has recreated > much of this, For sufficiently small definitions of "much". -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:44:59 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 159 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184086 comp.sys.mac.system:195650 comp.sys.next.programmer:22273 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55652 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 27-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> That is simply not true for every problem. > > I never said anything about "every problem". Let's hear your percentage > then. 80%? 90%? When I do system administration tasks, I rarely find OO paradigms useful, whereas the Unix CLI utilities are useful 95+% of the time. When I write commercial software, OO is useful for about 80% of the code. >> Again, OO programming is one paradigm out of many. It is not always the >> best solution to every possible problem, although it is very good for a >> lot of problems. > > And thus if you're using it (which you are in OpenStep after all) then > wouldn't you like consistency? Don't you _want_ to have access to the > best solution for most problems? If by "consistency" you mean that I have to use the "best solution for most problems" for every problem, then no. I'd rather use the "best solution for most problems" when it's appropriate, and use other solutions for the other times when they are better choices. > So why not have it? I do have NEXTSTEP and I'm more than slightly familiar with OpenStep-- I've had it for over 6 six years now. You don't need to advocate OpenStep to me. >> I can use fork()/exec() (which is more controllable in terms of handling >> stdin, stdout, etc that system()) on every POSIX-compliant operating >> system and every Unix system around. > > But that's a TINY portion of the computer market. A better solution > that's not platform dependant would allow easier access to the rest of the > market. I have no interest in developing software for a lowest common demoninator which does not understand fork() and exec(). I could care less about writing code that will work under the MacOS or under MS-DOS and Windows 3.1. > What's funny about this thread is that while people seem fond of telling > me this is nothing more than a "religious" anti-Unix rant, it appears the > arguments offered in return are exactly that indeed. > > What's everyone so afraid of? Work? No. I have better things to do with my programming time than trudge through slime trying to write functional code in the abscence of a reasonable operating system which provides a reasonable development environment and reasonable library routines. >> Such code is portable to more operating system/hardware plaform >> combinations than any other system call API that is available today. >> How is this not cross-platform? > > It is however, NOT portable out of the box to the vast majority of > _computers_ in the world. There's nothing inherent in OpenStep that I can > see that has such a limitation that could stop it from running over, say, > Win3.1. OpenStep demands a certain baseline functionality from the operating system. Windows NT and Unix systems provide that. Windows 95 is somewhat iffy, but adequate. Windows 3.1 and the MacOS aren't adequate-- they don't provide enough functionality (eg, preemptive multitasking for the machd to service Mach messages in time) to support an OpenStep implementation. >> You do realize that the fastest and most efficient web servers are >> written by preforking child servers-- such a design beats a >> multithreaded web server in pretty much every regard. > > That's because few Unixen have fast threading services, a point well > hashed out in other threads (of the message sort). Nonsense. Who cares what the thread startup costs are when you can compare preforking servers versus prespawning a multithreaded server? As for the context switching overhead, if there is a system where switching between processes is faster than switching between threads in one process, you're looking at a completely broken thread implementation. > > Nothing-- it's not terribly difficult at all. Why don't you understand > > that almost every single point you've made in several articles, > > including this one, have been wrong? > > You agree with most of them (3 out of 4 to be exact), yet they are > wrong. Your logic escapes me. Gee, could it be that you were batting well above average in this particular case, and that someone could easily find other articles where you didn't do nearly as well? [ ... ] >> If you make Unix optional, Rhapsody will no longer be Unix-compatible >> because you would have to replace the current Unix functionality with >> something else that is not optional-- this is the case with OpenStep on >> NT. Doing constitutes "ripping out Unix", since the operating system >> would no longer be a Unix operating system. > > I see. So if I delete, say, grep, off of my hard drive, Unix stops > working? Yes: % grep grep /etc/rc* /etc/rc:if ifconfig -a | grep -v "127.0.0.1" | grep -v "0.0.0.0" | grep -s inet; then /etc/rc: /usr/bin/egrep 'enable.+YES' ) >/dev/null 2>&1 /etc/rc: if [ -n "`ifconfig -a | grep en0 `" -o -n "`ifconfig -a | grep tr0 `" ]; then /etc/rc.local:pid=`ps cax | egrep nmserver | awk '{print $1;}'` /etc/rc.net:pid=`ps cax | egrep nmserver | awk '{print $1;}'` Your system won't have the loopback interface correctly configured, and the Mach nameserver won't be reinitialized correctly. >> And guess what? Apple bought NeXT because "Apple needed a truly modern >> operating system and NeXT had an exceptional operating system with >> modern services and API's." > > This descibes OS certainly, but do you truly offer up grep as a paradigm > of modern programming? I don't see how that matters at all. Grep is used by the operating system to perform essential functionality. > > All of this to save $3 worth of disk space? > > No, to make... > > a) programming easier > b) programming more consistent > c) the system more portable > d) the system easier to use > > But who want's any of those, eh? Those are nice goals. The existence of the Unix CLI utilities on a system does not prevent any of these goals from occurring. In fact, I think tools like grep make programming easier, and they make the system easier to use. I think that the world would be a better place if every operating system supported the POSIX API and command line utilities, because that would make programming more consistance and operating systems more portable. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 29 Jan 1997 18:40:15 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 95 Message-ID: <5co5if$slt$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: maury@softarc.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195651 comp.sys.next.programmer:22274 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184087 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55653 In Maury Markowitz wrote: > In article <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger > wrote: > > > If Apple developed an OpenStep implementation of their own, rather than > > just paying royalties, etc for NeXT's OPENSTEP implementation, Apple > > would _own_ their code and implementation. They wouldn't owe NeXT a > > dime, since OpenStep is an "open standard". > > And that will allow them to sell it on other platforms? I think not. > Then you don't know what an "open standard" is. Anyone can download the Openstep Spec from NeXT's ftp site. Anyone can impliment a set of libraries and system daemons that meet that spec. NeXT has no ability to say or do anything other than "that does [or doesn't] meet the requirements set down in the Openstep Spec" wrt to how the implimentor markets, distributes, deploys, or uses their implimentation of the specification anymore than those who wrote the Posix standard can tell Linus T how to distribute Linux. This is pretty much what GnuStep is.. a GNU implimentation of the Openstep libraries. NeXT and Apple will have no control over that implimentation, no right to require royalties, no right to limit what platforms it is distributed for (including their own platforms), etc. The only thing they could possibly do is stop circulating the Spec (which doesn't affect those who already have copies, it only prevents new copies _of_the_spec_ from being created and distributed), and stop allowing the anyone to claim "openstep compliance" even if they are openstep compliant or otherwise use the openstep name (the latter still wouldn't affect Gnustep, since they decided not to be called "Gnu Openstep"). This is what it means to be an "Open Standard". Anyone can impliment the standard, and they own their implimentation fully. The entity which creates the standard only owns the standard itself, and the name of the standard, and has _no_ control over the implimentations themselves. > > In order to keep NeXT's customer list, Apple needs to provide an > > operating system, development environment, and so forth which is > > comparible to the functionality of NeXT's current products. > > And they wouldn't be able to get any of them unless they first purchased it. > Not _necessarily_ true. They could have built a Rhapsody like system out of the Mklinux project. There is already a faction of Gnustep working to be sure it will deploy on Mklinux. Depending on whether you consider BSD (as opposed to simply 'unix-like') a requirement, mklinux already plans to allow multiple-server-OS's, and BSD-lites (a BSD 4.4 Mach Server OS) is as free as Linux. That could be ported to mk. Take those (their existing mk kernel, BSD-lites, Gnustep), put a upgraded Mac GUI on it, and create GUI admin tools, and they're probably closer to Rhapsody than they ever got with Copeland. They might even be able to ship something Rhapsody like in a year, if they worked at it. What they got from NeXT was all of that pre-canned, with several years of maturity and stability, and people whose "expert" credentials are impeccable (are there truely any professional linux experts out there? some.. but experts with all or most of mklinux?). They also got a coherent and working set of components. Rolling their own would have meant endless meaningless internal debates about whether their Gnustep needed to be GX or DPS, etc, etc, etc. Apple doesn't need to spend the next 2 years arguing over which group of standards to ship in one package, they need to deploy a working package. The last thing "they got" may sound strangest.. Especially coming from a Cygnus employee.. They got a proprietary implimentation. Why is that important? Because if they just took those free software packages, added a few new things, and shipped that.. just about anyone else could replace what they've got in about the same amount of time without paying a penny to Apple. At that point Apple becomes a Support body, not much of a Development body (though, that's arguable.. Cygnus is probably best known for supporting free software packages, but we also do a lot of development on them, and we even get a good chunk of revenue from having done that). Even if they managed to keep Development, it would imply a major restructuring of their business model.. not something they need to be saying to their investors right now. I mean.. if you're an investor who has put a lot of money in to Apple's proprietary past (and not gone out to invest in a company like Cygnus), how are you going to feel about the value of your stock if Amelio shows up tomorrow and says "HEY! We're going to become a free software company!" I'd think it was cool. But I don't know that you'd get the same reaction from Apple's current stock holders. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!chsun!news.eunet.ch!london!headi From: headi@now.ch (Daniel Scheidegger) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How bad can a file descriptor be? Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 13:42:28 GMT Organization: NOW GmbH, Zuerich, Switzerland Lines: 20 Sender: news@now.ch Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: dyna-azh-17.dial.eunet.ch X-Nntp-Posting-Host: astra Hi all, maybe one can help me with this problem: I'm in the process to port an application from OpenStep/Mach to OS/NT 4.1 which uses NSFileHandles for TCP/IP-communication. I'm going trough the normal process of creating a socket, connecting it to the remote system and creating a NSFileHandle for asynchron I/O. This works very well on OS/Mach. But the same code generates the following exception under OS/NT: -[NSConcreteFileHandle availableData]: Bad file descriptor. What can be the reasons for this? Netstat tells me, that the connection exists, so, whats bad with my file descriptor? Thanks for every hint Daniel -- Daniel Scheidegger Software Engineer, System Administrator NOW GmbH, Scheideggstr. 73, CH-8038 Zuerich ++41-1-2898025 / dscheide@now.ch #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 13:48:20 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 44 Message-ID: <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc501224.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22277 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55666 comp.sys.mac.system:195663 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184112 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 16-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld > Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > > > Why? Various scripting languages are all the rage now. JavaScript, > > > WebScript, VBScript, etc. plus what proponents sell as advanced > > > 4th-generation languages (4GLs) which are usually interpreted. The Unix > > > > Read it carefully, I was taling about calling these things from the > > command line, not the command line itself or using it as a person. IE, > > programs should not have to call things by "pretending" to typing in CLI > > commands. > > Sure. That's why the kernel provides a system call API. > > But that's not what you're arguing about-- you seem to be claiming that > it is wrong for a program to execute a CLI utility to perform some task. > And that's silly. Why don't you show me how you'd use system calls on > any OS you'd like to send email? > > With the CLI tools under Unix, sending a message in C is a one-liner: > > system("echo 'This is the contents of the message.^D' | mail -s 'My > Subject' ''"); The same could be done in C without using the system() function. But it would be ugly and awkward by comparison. However, the fault lies both with C and with the standard C library. In some other programming language, such as Smalltalk (hey, you knew this was coming, right?), coding the above could be as simple as: MailTool sendMessage: 'This is the contents of the message.' withSubject: 'My Subject' to: ' Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Porting from NS to Rhapsody Date: 19 Jan 1997 21:52:26 GMT Organization: Cyberstore Systems Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5bu52q$hoc@scipio.cyberstore.ca> References: <5aubl0$aql@abel.ic.sunysb.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: yvr-ppp-54.cyberstore.ca X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) wrote: >A microkernel change should pose much of a problem You can already move >from OpenStep/Mach to OpenStep/NT. I think you meant to say a microkernel change should'nt pose much of a problem. Darren http://www.bcog.org/~dreely #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!news.inlink.com!not-for-mail From: sangria@inlink.com (Sang K. Choe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:17:26 GMT Organization: InLink Lines: 30 Message-ID: <3304f650.1643531640@mambo> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <0mrz3kS00iVGI9e7EM@andrew.cmu.edu> <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5c2r53$3i3@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5c4pde$s64@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <32ED1135.22DC2715@screaming.org> <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org> <32f9a559.1557269312@mambo> NNTP-Posting-Host: sangria.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55670 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184116 comp.sys.mac.system:195669 comp.sys.next.programmer:22279 On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 10:52:54 -0500, maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >In article <32f9a559.1557269312@mambo>, sangria@inlink.com (Sang K. Choe) wrote: > >> NT 4.0's POSIX subsystem is still quite intact and supported. A large >> chunk of the utilities shipped with the ResKit would be useless were >> this the case. > > Sorry, again I am a victim of poor use of a term. I'm not really >referring to the POSIX API in this case, but utilities. For instance, >nowhere on my drive can be found any of the standard utils - yes I know >they are not a part of POSIX. So go and download them. You can find a decent set for free at www.cygnus.com. Or you can get another set from U of Texas. Or you can try the enhanced POSIX package from SoftWay in their OpenNT product. The POSIX 2 compliant tools/sdk should be available RSN. > SoftWay... the guys that do the Unix compatibility stuff for NT? Yep. -- Sang. ******************************************************** * Sang K. Choe sangria@inlink.com * * http://sangria.inlink.com/index.html * * finger: sang@sangria.inlink.com * ******************************************************** #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!pixie.mcom.com!news From: David Matiskella Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:24:36 -0800 Organization: Another Netscape News Server User Lines: 64 Message-ID: <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: netscape.com NNTP-Posting-Host: h-198-95-250-223.mcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11195 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3817 comp.sys.next.programmer:22280 John Rudd wrote: > > In G. Gordon > Apple, PhD wrote: > > > >> which BTW means having function overloading because operators > > > >> by definition are functions. > > > > > > > > No. Operator overloading is NOT a subset of function overloading. > > > > Operators on objects are methods, which are not functions, at least in > > > > Objective-C. (Note that "function overloading" refers to C functions, > > > > not mathematical ones.) > > > > Which is actually making my point. "Operators" are by definition > > "functions" in the mathematical sense. You then responded to me in the > > context of Objective C. There is a substantial schism between people > > whose profession is writing code vs. those who write code to get a job > > done, e.g., mathematicians and engineers. Many times, the output of the > > latter moves into the domain of the former, especially as the power of PCs > > (in the generic sense) continues to increase. > > > > For example, I have often seen relatively new programmers dismiss the > > need for FORTRAN compilers. They have no concept of the vast libraries of > > FORTRAN code that runs much of the engineering world today and keeps the > > rest of the world running. One of the big advantages of C++ (e.g., over > > FORTRAN or C) is the ability to take the abstract mathematical concept of > > an "operator" and implement it in code in a way that is still > > recognizable. Galois fields and complex numbers may be considered highly > > specialized to some professional shrink-wrap application programmers, but > > they are very basic in many engineering areas. IMHO, giving that up is a > > giant step backwards. > > > > > > Ok... just out of curiosity, for those cases where you need to change the way > objects "add" or "multiply" etc, to reflect their implimentation or > whatever.. > what is wrong with an "Add:" method, instead of "+:" or "+"? > > It's slightly more verbose, but it's not really more or less readable to say: > > foo = [ComplexA add: ComplexB]; > > than > > foo = ComplexA + ComplexB; > > -- > John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd > =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ > Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design > C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. If you take that attitude why should the language even have operators? Why not write c=Add(a,b) for every data type? What makes the built in ones special? Depending on what you are doing operator overloading is a godsend. If you are writing programs that depend on custom math types it makes your code a lot simplier. With just 1 operator its not bad but imagine if you want to do something like m=m1*m2*m3*m4 where the m's are a bunch of matrices. That is a hell of a lot easier to read than m=Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(m1,m2),m3),m4). If you aren't doing math heavy things like FEM, 3d graphics and the like, you might not miss them, but if you are you really do miss them whenever you have to deal with a language that doesn't have them. All IMNHO of course David Matiskella #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!blackbush.xlink.net!noris.net!shinto!news From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) Subject: Re: Adobe Bravo Message-ID: Sender: news@shinto.nbg.sub.org X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next/Images/People/tomi.shinto.nbg.sub.org.tiff Organization: STEPeople's home (A NUGI member) X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <8D0E511.09B600067E.uuout@moondog.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:47:49 GMT Lines: 65 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55673 comp.sys.next.programmer:22281 Ravi Mendis wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SHEPPARD GORDON quoted: > > A new graphical infrastructure for the Web. (Adobe Bravo) > > 07/01/96 > > Advanced Imaging > > > > TEXT/TYPOGRAPHY FEATURES > > > > As I've noted, text support in Bravo is not tied to any specific font > > technology. Applications can interchangeably work with Type 1, Type 1 > > multiple master, TrueType and the new "OpenType" technology recently > > announced by Adobe and Microsoft. Open Type is a universal font format that > > will combine TrueType and Type 1 font technologies to streamline management > > of existing fonts and provide a font format to handle the next generation of > > type for personal computers and the Internet. > > How about supporting QuickDraw GX Typography? Well shouldn't be a problem as far as "fonts" are concerned. But typography here does not include the "WorldScript" stuff since that would contradict with Bravos "portabilty". Things would look different on a Mac if it would only perform the ligature etc. stuff on that platform. But this whole issue is pretty useless as documetns which use GX fonts could not be displayed on e.g. Win95 boxes as long as you don't have them...etc. pp. I am still not really sure what Bravo is all about. It seems like a stripped down DPS system without all the interpreter stuff (PSwarps etc.). Seems like NeXTs/Apples DPS is perfectly suited for Bravo since it might just be an aditional layer on top of that (if they include antialiasing into DPS text rendering) What is this talk about support for "scalable PostScript line-art". Thats not EPS support...is it ? It can't be since then Bravo would not fit into a few hundred kilobytes (but then...how "few" is "few". DPS is only a "few hunderte" k too) And does Bravo build on top of the underlying drawing system (GDI, QuickDraw..) ? I supos not..sicne then results could not be really predicted. So it might just blit framebuffers. > * Collect graphical objects, characters and images to be painted multiple times into a display list cache. While almost all features are DPS alike (besides antialiasing and "save to PDF") I am not sure what this is about. These display lists seem to be more then a DPS "gstate" ?. Is that a PDF-style "base operationg" instruction set. To some degree it seems funny that the Java/Bravo systems are about to rebuild OpenStep. Add in the OpenDoc/Java thing and Rhapsody looks more then interesting. Aloha Tomi P.S. Sorry for crossposting...but shouldn't this migrate to the programmer group ? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 29 Jan 1997 21:47:34 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: ga@ed4u.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11196 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3818 comp.sys.next.programmer:22282 In G. Gordon Apple, PhD wrote: > > >> which BTW means having function overloading because operators > > >> by definition are functions. > > > > > > No. Operator overloading is NOT a subset of function overloading. > > > Operators on objects are methods, which are not functions, at least in > > > Objective-C. (Note that "function overloading" refers to C functions, > > > not mathematical ones.) > > Which is actually making my point. "Operators" are by definition > "functions" in the mathematical sense. You then responded to me in the > context of Objective C. There is a substantial schism between people > whose profession is writing code vs. those who write code to get a job > done, e.g., mathematicians and engineers. Many times, the output of the > latter moves into the domain of the former, especially as the power of PCs > (in the generic sense) continues to increase. > > For example, I have often seen relatively new programmers dismiss the > need for FORTRAN compilers. They have no concept of the vast libraries of > FORTRAN code that runs much of the engineering world today and keeps the > rest of the world running. One of the big advantages of C++ (e.g., over > FORTRAN or C) is the ability to take the abstract mathematical concept of > an "operator" and implement it in code in a way that is still > recognizable. Galois fields and complex numbers may be considered highly > specialized to some professional shrink-wrap application programmers, but > they are very basic in many engineering areas. IMHO, giving that up is a > giant step backwards. > > Ok... just out of curiosity, for those cases where you need to change the way objects "add" or "multiply" etc, to reflect their implimentation or whatever.. what is wrong with an "Add:" method, instead of "+:" or "+"? It's slightly more verbose, but it's not really more or less readable to say: foo = [ComplexA add: ComplexB]; than foo = ComplexA + ComplexB; -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 29 Jan 1997 00:21:54 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5cmmpi$11g@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5clj2q$76p@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22283 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55677 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184133 comp.sys.mac.system:195687 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5clj2q$76p@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > Look again. BeOS is nowhere near as mature as Unix. The current OOP > > APIs have a lot of the core functionality of Unix's base API (e.g., > > POSIX), but the BeOS APIs do not encapsulate nearly as many utility > > routines as the Unix command-line programs. It does not have OOP > > replacements for all, or even many, of the Unix command-line > > utilities. > Ok, let's see... it has a complete lib for file access, including > documents and databases, as well as supporting powerful searching, sorting > and information extraction from any of the objects in the data store. It > has a complete string manipulation library too. Development is handled by > CodeWarrior, so a lot of those utilities aren't needed. It seems we're > down to some of the networking daemons now. Uh huh. Go look around the bin directories of a Unix system sometime. > > I _am_ looking at raw numbers. What does "a lot" mean? Fake numbers? > How about total amount of time the user spends using them? Total number > of invocations. Sure there might be 1000 unconverted Unix utils, but does > anyone use them? You'd be surprised. And a lot of them are used by higher-level scripts without you even knowing about them, rather than directly. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!deceased.hb.north.de!gina.zfn.uni-bremen.de!news.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:28:10 -0500 Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <32EFF92A.526D@subsequent.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@cs <5cnu5o$eus@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22284 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55678 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184136 comp.sys.mac.system:195688 William Raphael Hix wrote: > Unfortunately, the number of users who want a Unix OS and productivity > apps is small (even though it includes me 8-)). Apple would be better > served concentrating on larger markets, like content development, > publishing, and the like, where the Apple name on a robust, stable and > fast OS will quickly gain favor. Hopefully, we Unix users will get what > we want, but I'm not holding my breath. You're assuming that the only way to market a Unix OS is as a Unix OS. This is not a good assumption. Rhapsody will have copious features which will allow it to be marketed to people who don't care one whit about Unix. Apple need only mention the Unix feature as one among dozens. The best bet would be to emphasize it in some marketing campaigns, and de-emphasize it in others. When trying to sell to techies, sell the Unix, along with everything else. When selling to artists, sell the power, ease of use, Display Postscript, and software - sell it as a Macintosh. There's no logical reason for Apple to use Unix marketing techniques to market their Unix operating system. There just isn't. Most Rhapsody users won't care what's under the hood - but that's not an argument against using Unix. -- "Liar. Liar. Liar. Liar. Liar. Hateful liar. That's what she is." - ELLIOT J. ABELSON A Los Angeles lawyer who represents Scientology speaking about the Pinellas-Pasco medical examiner #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 30 Jan 1997 03:45:35 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22285 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184155 comp.sys.mac.system:195701 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55683 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > That's certainly not how it read, nor how you used it in the argument. > This particular portion of the thread stated after another Mac user > expressed concern that the NeXT OS required you to place certain files in > particular places, something he appeared to be uncomfortable with. After > a chain of messages you implied that this was quite natural behaviour, and > that your computers had such a standard. I have been repeatedly stating > that what you do is fine, but that I don't want that on _my_ machine, I > want to put the files where I wish. Hm. Maury, it might even be me you're talking about as I sometimes have documents in a folder with their applications- for rarely used things that I want to be localized. I did mention this. I also have stuff in Engine/Desktop Folder, which is a subdirectory of Engine my hard disk. It is a real live subdirectory- it just happens to show different behavior (a screen-shaped window without borders or scrollbars.) I download Kaleidoscope color schemes. These have to go in Engine/System Folder/Extensions/Kaleidoscope Color Schemes or they won't work at all. I don't think twice about it and bear Greg Landwebe (who _is_ God, after all ;) ) no ill will for not making Kaleidoscope capable of hunting all over local and network disks for possible locations of color schemes. (I just wish he'd document the col# resource ;) ) You know? I don't think anybody will notice or care. Let the NeXTos be NeXTos. We'll deal. This is not hard stuff. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!news.dra.com!news.inlink.com!not-for-mail From: sangria@inlink.com (Sang K. Choe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:15:49 GMT Organization: InLink Lines: 22 Message-ID: <3303f619.1643476734@mambo> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <32EF0661.6A64@etm.co.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: sangria.inlink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99f/32.299 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184158 comp.sys.mac.system:195703 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55685 comp.sys.next.programmer:22286 On Wed, 29 Jan 1997 09:12:17 +0100, Guenter Szolderits wrote: >Maury Markowitz wrote: >>.. >> > NT provides a POSIX-compliant environment, does it not? ... >> >> None of which appear to be on either my NT server or workstation. > >The POSIX subsystem of Windows NT is only POSIX.1, which does'nt include >any POSIX commands. Some POSIX commands are part of the Windows NT >Resource Kit, which must be purchased separately. Or you can download a fairly complete set from CyGnus (www.cygnus.com) for free. -- Sang. ******************************************************** * Sang K. Choe sangria@inlink.com * * http://sangria.inlink.com/index.html * * finger: sang@sangria.inlink.com * ******************************************************** #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!news1.ucsd.edu!kennel From: kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 29 Jan 1997 21:19:26 GMT Organization: The University of California at San Diego Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5coesu$cm8@news1.ucsd.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lyapunov.ucsd.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195709 comp.sys.next.programmer:22287 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184166 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55686 Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote: : In article <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger : wrote: : > If Apple developed an OpenStep implementation of their own, rather than : > just paying royalties, etc for NeXT's OPENSTEP implementation, Apple : > would _own_ their code and implementation. They wouldn't owe NeXT a : > dime, since OpenStep is an "open standard". : And that will allow them to sell it on other platforms? I think not. Of course, they could sell it on anything they wanted. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:17:17 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 80 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22288 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184176 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55691 comp.sys.mac.system:195714 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 29-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >> Those two statements >>>NOT<<< identical. You deliberately removed the >> rest of what I said! You also conveniently ignored my point that >> conventions are created by humans, and not by computers. > > The context of the argument is that it's OK to have the computers define > where certain file types can be stored because that's quite "natural". > I've been saying it's not. Read what I just said. Now ask yourself, "who defined the conventions being used under an operating system like NEXTSTEP?" Was it (a) the humans who wrote NEXTSTEP, or (b) the computers running NEXTSTEP? [ ... ] >> Are you asking me or Usenet in general? > > You. I'm asking YOU what resources the machines YOU run have for > matching document types to applications based on that document's > location. I would like to know how your file location "standards" solve > the problem you posed to me in which the location of the file then defines > which application is used with it. My problem was how two users on a multiuser machine can have different default applications for the same exact file. Under NEXTSTEP, each user has a set of preferences built up and controlled by the WorkSpace which indicates which application should open which type of file. NEXTSTEP solves the problem I described just fine. MacOS doesn't. MacOS allows you to put files anywhere because single-user machines can get away with fewer conventions than multiuser machines have. >> You've been telling us all how filesystem conventions for the structure >> of directories is bad, and how the MacOS lets you put files whereever >> you want to which is good. > > I think it is. I think the limitations imposed on this by the System > Folder is just that, an imposition. Perhaps a needed one, but an > imposition none the less. More examples of this would be worse. We're never going to agree on this topic, clearly. Since Apple is moving to a multiuser operating system, I expect to see Rhapsody have more conventions rather than fewer, and I consider that to be a good thing for a variety of reasons that I've already explained. Deal with it. >> 1: relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard >> for system and theory > > This is of course the definition that is most often applied, as in > empirical vs. quantitative evidence. And what is the difference between those two? > If you wish to redefine that term as well to be (2) or (3), be my guest, > but don't "hammer" me for using the most common definition. I was quoting from Webster's dictionary-- I wasn't "redefining" anything, I was using what most people consider a good reference for the meaning of standard English words. >> For example: If I count the number of users who report a problem with a >> certain aspect of a program, I've just quantified real-world feedback. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > Agreed. What portion exactly did you think I was disagreeing with? Your claim that you can't quantify real world feedback? Can't you even manage to remember what you've said when it was quoted in the article that you've responded to? -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news-out.microserve.net!news-in.microserve.net!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!decwrl!ablecom!not-for-mail From: cliff@shell.ablecom.net (Cliff Tuel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Compiler version in newest OS? Date: 29 Jan 1997 15:42:58 -0800 Organization: PDH, Inc. Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5cona3$fjn@shell.ablecom.net> References: <5cigco$bou@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> <32ECD75E.A07@ibp.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: shell.ablecom.net Lars Immisch said... |3.3's cc is gcc 2.2.2. I _think_ 4.1 still does not have 2.7.2, but this |will hopefully be confirmed by someone who has 4.1. OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.1 / Mach: "In this release, the Mach compiler is based on the GNU C compiler version 2.5.8. The compilers Windows and PDO compilers [sic] shipped with the OPENSTEP Enterprise release are based on the GNU C compiler version 2.7.2." % cc -v Reading specs from /lib/i386/specs NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-478, gcc version 2.5.8 Also... "The GDB debugger in OpenStep 4.0 for Mach (and later versions) is based on the version 4.14 release from GNU/FSF." -- Cliff Tuel -- NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP Wrangler -- cliff@pdh.com -- cliff@ablecom.net PDH Inc / 2635 North First Street Suite 224 / San Jose California / 95134-2032 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 30 Jan 1997 05:17:47 GMT Organization: Cygnus Support Lines: 57 Message-ID: <5cpats$f4t$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Cc: davidm@netscape.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11201 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3823 comp.sys.next.programmer:22290 In <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> David Matiskella wrote: > John Rudd wrote: > > > > Ok... just out of curiosity, for those cases where you need to change the way > > objects "add" or "multiply" etc, to reflect their implimentation or > > whatever.. > > what is wrong with an "Add:" method, instead of "+:" or "+"? > > > > It's slightly more verbose, but it's not really more or less readable to say: > > > > foo = [ComplexA add: ComplexB]; > > > > than > > > > foo = ComplexA + ComplexB; > > > If you take that attitude why should the language even have operators? > Why not write c=Add(a,b) for every data type? What makes the built in > ones special? Depending on what you are doing operator overloading is a > godsend. If you are writing programs that depend on custom math types it > makes your code a lot simplier. With just 1 operator its not bad but > imagine if you want to do something like m=m1*m2*m3*m4 where the m's are > a bunch of matrices. That is a hell of a lot easier to read than > m=Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(m1,m2),m3),m4). If you aren't > doing math heavy things like FEM, 3d graphics and the like, you might > not miss them, but if you are you really do miss them whenever you have > to deal with a language that doesn't have them. All IMNHO of course > David Matiskella > I can see the case against using named _prefix_ notation functions, but that's not at all the same as _infix_ method names. [[[[matrixA times: matrixB] times: matrixC] times: matrixD]; is not significantly harder to read than: matrixA * matrixB * matrixC * matrixD; Especially if you need to add parenthises for some reason. It _is_ more wordy, but it's still easy to read. I'm also not entirely sure I'd agree that operator overloading is a godsend.. The times I've had to keep track of all of that in a C++ program (writing an arbitrary precision math lib) it was really little better than syntactic sugar. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!usenet From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to make "STOP" button? Date: 30 Jan 1997 01:36:31 -0500 Organization: Duke University, Durham, NC, USA Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5cpfhf$84f@news.duke.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bio2.acpub.duke.edu What is the standard (or just a good) method for enabling a user to stop a process in process? I have a method which iterates a dynamical system: - iterate:sender { while (loopConditionMet) { Iterate(dynamicalSystem); } return self: } Can I just stick some method call in the loop that checks to see if I've pressed a "STOP" button on my application? if ( [stopButton isPressed] ) exit; What would be the implementation of [stopButton isPressed] ? Thanks much, Lee Altenberg altenber@acpub.duke.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!newsfeed.de.ibm.net!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.ecrc.de!news00.btx.dtag.de!not-for-mail From: J.Penning@t-online.de (Jrg Penning) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Simple questions Date: 25 Jan 1997 22:42:43 GMT Organization: Telekom Online Internet Gateway Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5ce293$tqv@news00.btx.dtag.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: 04027878060-0001@t-online.de (Joerg Penning) X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01DT [de] (Win16; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5184 comp.sys.next.programmer:22292 Hi folks, I have a few questions about Objective-C: - What is the type 'Class' good for? Why shouldn't I use 'id'? - What will happen on [self free] AT THE END of some method? I'm running NSfIP 3.3 and I'm looking for a garbage collector. Any recommendations? Thanks, Joerg. -- Joerg Penning email j.penning@t-online.de #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sure.net!pm824.sure.net!user From: morbius@sure.net (Morbius) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 14:33:09 -0800 Organization: Mind's I Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <32E3EA94.142F@exnext.com> <5cmmkd$q4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm824.sure.net X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.1d3+ Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55709 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184256 comp.sys.mac.system:195765 comp.sys.next.programmer:22293 In article <5cmmkd$q4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > > In article <32EE7205.CCA9263@screaming.org>, Pohl Longsine > > wrote: > > > > That's because it's largely meaningless. It means that NT customers > > > are relatively uninterested in the POSIX API, not that PC customers > > > are relatively uninterested in a UNIX OS. > > > Well fair enough. But since those OS's (Win) form something on the > > order of 70% of the market share of OS's being sold today, that means the > > vast majority of the market doesn't want Unix. > > They don't want the Mac either, apparently. An unfortunate case of the market/public resisting change. There is a distinction, however. Resisting change, regardless of type (Mac), vs. resisting an OS intended for the "control freak" and/or "geek" (Unix). Something about throwing the baby with the water, comes to mind...:) Morbius -- "Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!..." Curly #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 30 Jan 1997 04:07:08 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm1a3.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184271 comp.sys.mac.system:195773 comp.sys.next.programmer:22294 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55714 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > by Maury Markowitz@softarc. > > I see. So if I delete, say, grep, off of my hard drive, Unix stops > > working? > Yes: > % grep grep /etc/rc* > /etc/rc:if ifconfig -a | grep -v "127.0.0.1" | grep -v "0.0.0.0" | grep > -s inet; then > /etc/rc: /usr/bin/egrep 'enable.+YES' ) >/dev/null 2>&1 > /etc/rc: if [ -n "`ifconfig -a | grep en0 `" -o -n "`ifconfig -a | > grep tr0 `" ]; then > /etc/rc.local:pid=`ps cax | egrep nmserver | awk '{print $1;}'` > /etc/rc.net:pid=`ps cax | egrep nmserver | awk '{print $1;}'` > Your system won't have the loopback interface correctly configured, and > the Mach nameserver won't be reinitialized correctly. ...just as if you somehow deleted HMGetMenuResID from the Mac Toolbox (or wherever it hides), MacOS stops working. Actually you can't- if I was up for it I'd option drag my active System file onto the desktop to make a copy, drag that onto ResEdit, and I could cite specific code resources that you could actually delete, that would make MacOS stop working. WDEF 0 would do nicely ;) The difference is that you can't actually treat MacOS toolbox calls or code resources as a user program. Under Unices you actually can, though they are not much more friendly than toolbox calls- but in some ways, for some uses, they are more friendly than toolbox calls, because their limits are sharply defined and they deal with a very very simple data type. One does not expect DisposPixMap to throw up a confirmation dialog, why should rm? It's just a question of burying rm so Grandma never sees it, and if anybody can do this Apple can. I _loved_ the Unix-Hater's Handbook. I found it delightful, hilarious, insightful, useful in its points of warning. Yet I am _still_ warming to the idea of Unix- because it will no longer be in anyone's face. There is clearly a lot that can be done by those crufty little code fragments of a utility library Unix has- they are appalling compared with, say, Aladdin products for file handling, but compare them to Apple event handling and Gworld manipulation and the little Unix utilities begin to look appealingly easy and sensible. Perhaps that's just my bias, but there it is. Grep is a toolbox call. Normal users ought never to know it's there, they get a GUI search box with all the options logically presented and clearly labelled, and _that_ does the 'toolbox call' and keeps track of what oddly named arguments grep requires. They're no less oddly named than wdef masks ;) you give the wdef a single number which is a binary _mask_ to set various switches. Picture using _that_ as a user program ;) Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!iway.fr!news1.isdnet.net!phoenix.siris.fr!ubnsrv.unisource.ch!scsing.switch.ch!elna.ethz.ch!usenet From: david@pfi.ibk.baum.ethz.ch (David C. EKCHIAN) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Compile ObjC in C++ fail with 4.1 Date: 30 Jan 1997 11:54:48 GMT Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETHZ) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5cq268$6vs@elna.ethz.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: edipo.ethz.ch X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Hi Folks, With OpenStep 4.0 or NextStep 3.3, one could compile ObjC and C++ code together with the -ObjC++ directive, and link all together. We only had to give the directive in the Build Attributes of the Project Inspector. Fine. With the new 4.1 makefile, it fails. All *.m files automatically get an -ObjC flag (see NONRECURSIVE_MFLAGS in flags.make and the implicitrules.make file). I renamed all my *.m files to *.M as workaround so that they are compiled as Objective-C++ files. Do you have another idea or proposition? Have fun, David. -- o _ /-;c ___ David C. EKCHIAN ______________________________________(@)#\(@)___ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-penn.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.belnet.be!swsbe6.switch.ch!scsing.switch.ch!elna.ethz.ch!usenet From: david@pfi.ibk.baum.ethz.ch (David C. EKCHIAN) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Failure in 4.1 if French language defined. Date: 30 Jan 1997 12:02:05 GMT Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETHZ) Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5cq2jt$6vs@elna.ethz.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: edipo.ethz.ch X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Hi Folks, If you choosed French as primary language, you'll probably encounter that problem soon: - your application won't run normally - you get many warnings on your Console like: > *** /NextLibrary/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/B/ > Resources/French.lproj/Printing.strings: > *** End of input expected; > Parse error line 97 (position 3048) for units: (); > Next token is 'OK' This is a BUG. In the file "Printing.strings", line 97, there is a " ." too much... Remove it! Enjoy 4.1. David. -- o _ /-;c ___ David C. EKCHIAN ______________________________________(@)#\(@)___ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!pressimage!news1.isdnet.net!phoenix.siris.fr!ubnsrv.unisource.ch!scsing.switch.ch!elna.ethz.ch!usenet From: david@pfi.ibk.baum.ethz.ch (David C. EKCHIAN) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Dynamic flag in 4.0 and 4.1 Date: 30 Jan 1997 11:46:13 GMT Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETHZ) Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5cq1m5$6vs@elna.ethz.ch> NNTP-Posting-Host: edipo.ethz.ch X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(s) Hi all, A question about the dynamic flag of the compiler. The Release notes say: > Notes Specific to Release 4.0 > New Features > Dynamically Linked Shared Libraries > The compiler tools now allow you to build and develop dynamic shared > libraries and support the programs that use these libraries, including > programs that use bundles. > All object files that are part of a dynamic shared library or that are > to be in an executable should be compiled with the -dynamic flag. The > -dynamic flag is now the default. They mean ALL compiled files then, hey? OK, I compiled with that flag on OpenStep 4.0, but now, with 4.1, I got new makefiles and -dynamic is no more the default! What shall I do? Reading the release notes for OpenStep 4.1, one read: > Notes Specific to Release 4.1 > The dynamic linker now has the environment variable > DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH to better support the development of > frameworks. See the man page for details. Nice. And what shall I do with that DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH? Any help appreciated, have a nice day, See also my thread "Compile ObjC in C++ fail with 4.1", David. -- o _ /-;c ___ David C. EKCHIAN ______________________________________(@)#\(@)___ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to make "STOP" button? Date: 30 Jan 1997 02:45:05 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5cp1vh$a0h@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) What is the standard (or just a good) method for enabling a user to stop a process in process? I have a method which iterates a dynamical system: - iterate:sender { while (loopConditionMet) { Iterate(dynamicalSystem); } return self: } Can I just stick some method call in the loop that checks to see if I've pressed a "STOP" button on my application? if ( [stopButton isPressed] ) exit; What would be the implementation of [stopButton isPressed] ? Thanks much, Lee -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!night.primate.wisc.edu!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 30 Jan 1997 00:46:12 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 57 Message-ID: <5cor0k$4o4@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11203 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3833 comp.sys.next.programmer:22299 David Matiskella wrote: > John Rudd wrote: > > Ok... just out of curiosity, for those cases where you need to > > change the way objects "add" or "multiply" etc, to reflect > > their implimentation or whatever.. what is wrong with an "Add:" > > method, instead of "+:" or "+"? > > > > It's slightly more verbose, but it's not really more or less > > readable to say: > > > > foo = [ComplexA add: ComplexB]; > > > > than > > > > foo = ComplexA + ComplexB; > > If you take that attitude why should the language even have > operators? Why not write c=Add(a,b) for every data type? What > makes the built in ones special? Because the operator is then part of the language, and you can know what it does (by looking at the language specification). You know that if you have a bug, it's very unlikely to be that "+" operator, as long as that "+" operator isn't overloaded. If you overload the operator, then someone looking at your code might think it does something other that what you were thinking of when you wrote it. For most good examples I have seen used to justify operator overloading, my gut reaction is "Why not support that data type in the language?". Not that ObjectiveC supports something like complex numbers, but it would be nice if it did. My own preference is that there was some degree of operator overloading, perhaps even limited to some special operators (eg: you could define what "[+]" means as an operator, but not what "+" itself means). I can see situations where the capability is useful, but I'd also like to see it used sparingly. I hate it when someone starts saying "Oh, gee, let's see what function I could bind to the "+" operator for this class of objects". Due to programmers like that, I would like "overloadable" operators to look different than standard ones. > If you aren't doing math heavy things like FEM, 3d graphics and > the like, you might not miss them, but if you are you really do > miss them whenever you have to deal with a language that doesn't > have them. All IMNHO of course - - David Matiskella The above ramblings are just my own opinions too, of course. And they probably need to be thought out a bit more... --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!tmpnews.crd.ge.com!news.crd.ge.com!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 30 Jan 1997 01:29:30 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5cothq$4o4@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5cnt9u$tgi@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11204 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3834 comp.sys.next.programmer:22300 nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote: > ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) wrote: > > > There is a substantial schism between people whose profession > > is writing code vs. those who write code to get a job done, > > e.g., mathematicians and engineers. > > I forgot to mention this in the last post, but I find that > statement highly insulting. The implication is that only > mathematicians and engineers write code "to get a job done". > ALL programmers write code to get a job done. Are you implying > that non-engineering applications aren't real work? I'm not insulted. I think I know what he means. In my case, I'm as interested in the process of programming as I am in the result. People in some other fields may write a program to get some task done, but they don't care about programming per se. I understand that they don't care about the same things I care about. That's why I'm a systems programmer, and they are in whatever fields they are in. I see no reason to be insulted by that. Think of programming like a car. Everyone may be using a car to get to some important destination, but only mechanics are interested in how the *car* itself works. That does not make your destination more (or less) important than the destination of a mechanic, it just means you care about different things. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.139.9.15!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!nerc.com!luomat Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <199701300102.UAA01397@nerc.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Image-Url: http://www.nerc.com/~luomat/Timothy_J_Luoma-X-Face.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) From: Timothy J Luoma Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 20:02:46 -0500 Subject: Counting remaining INODES Reply-To: luomat@peak.org Followup-To: poster,comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Princeton Theological Seminary X-Url: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/ X-Nextstep-Url: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next X-Next-Faq: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/faq.html Lines: 26 How can I tell how many inodes are left on my HD? (midnight commander can tell me I've got: Free nodes 206327 (85%) of 241664 and I want to know how it does that.) Anyone have a code/program/command-I-don't-know that does this? Does it work on other drives (SyQuest SCSI, for example)? Thanks! TjL ps -- please CC me on reply? I've set followups to me and the newsgroup -- Tj Luoma (luomat@peak.org) If you have a web page about NeXTStep|OpenStep, email me the URL! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 30 Jan 1997 10:27:31 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5cqel3$vp5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5co4fc$8n4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22302 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55730 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184325 comp.sys.mac.system:195812 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > but on the other hand portions of their OS is much richer than > anything offered in "standard" Unixen that I am aware of. Their > file/document system is a certainly one good example, volumes are simply > large databases storing objects. I think this is something I'd like to > see in the future NeXT OS as well. Hey, at least they're trying. I agree about the database filesystem. It's wonderful. A couple of years ago, NeXT was planning on adding something like a database and/or object file system to Mecca (the release of NEXTSTEP that eventually became OPENSTEP for Mach 4.0) -- I can't remember the details -- but it wasn't a high enough priority for NeXT's current market and goals. Maybe now it will be, especially with NT's Object File System coming out and all. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 29 Jan 1997 16:53:04 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5cnv9g$g3e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1bm1$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c46rq$84c@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5cenf0$jen@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22303 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55732 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184329 comp.sys.mac.system:195814 Donald R. McGregor (mcgredo@crl.com) wrote: : In article <5c46rq$84c@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, : William Raphael Hix wrote: : >Your use of tar seems predicated on a Rhapsody software distribution : >system like most of Unix. Are you expecting lots of "here's the source : >code now compile it yourself" apps ported from Unix to Rhapsody? : >It's fundamental differences in expectations between the Mac and NeXT : >communities which fuel this thread. : : Yes, there should be a lot of compile it yourself apps for Rhapsody. : Most users won't see it, though. Well, compile-your-self apps require a compiler. Do you expect this to be part of Rhapsody or do you expect to buy it from Metrowerks? I don't expect cc to be standard equipment on Rhapsody. Is cc a standard part of OpenStep/Mach user or do you need the Developer or Academic packages? : : It wouldn't surprise me at all to see Apache, new versions of Bind, : multicast routers, and other gizmos running on Rhapsody. It's a : useful personal machine with plenty of shrink-wrapped apps, and : it's a unix machine that does all sorts of unix things. The two : markets are distinct, though, so most of group A won't know : that group B exists. I'd be truly happy with such an OS. I'm just not expecting Rhapsody, in its base configuration, to offer all of this. Since, as you say group A won't care about these Unix features, the much smaller group B might have to pay extra. Current Mac users who are member of group B pay hundreds of dollars for software like MachTen, MacNFS, or MacX. Even if Apple takes this split approach, Mac-Unix users and NeXT users would be better off than they are now. They'd get access to common productivity apps plus all the Unix features they want for a cost probably much less than the current price of OpenStep/Mach. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news.fhg.de!news.iese.fhg.de!usenet From: flege@iese.fhg.de (Oliver Flege) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: WebObjects & gifs from a db Date: 30 Jan 1997 15:40:07 GMT Organization: Fraunhofer Gesellschaft: Institut iese Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5cqfcn$k32@iese.iese.fhg.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: galeras.iese.fhg.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Newsreader: knews 0.9.7 Hi, can anybody think of a way store picture-data in an RDBMS such as Oracle and to make them appear on Web-pages generated by WebObjects WITHOUT creating temporary files that contain the image data (i.e. is there a way to transmit those images by bypassing the usual IMG-Tags which only work with the URL of a file to be loaded.) If you can think of how to do that - please let me know. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Oliver Flege Fraunhofer Institute for Experimental Software Engineering (IESE) Sauerwiesen 6 tel (+49) 6301 707 220 67661 Kaiserslautern fax (+49) 6301 707 200 Germany e-mail flege@iese.fhg.de ----------------------------------------------------------------- 'A fool with a tool is still a fool.' #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.unisource.nl!xs4all!not-for-mail From: jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 30 Jan 1997 16:11:00 GMT Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses Lines: 77 Sender: @news.xs4all.nl Message-ID: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:11:00 CET X-XS4ALL-User: fygir@xs4all.nl on news.xs4all.nl X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Please tell me that we're not the only ones experiencing problems with OPENSTEP Developer 4.0 for Mach/Intel. I have collected a long list of bugs and would like to know whether other developers have seen the same ones. Some are minor, but others are really irritating, almost to the point of making development impossible. Thanks in advance for your sympathy :-) ;-) :-( Also if anyone knows if these bugs have been addressed in 4.1, please tell me about it. ============================================================================ Gripes about ProjectBuilder Release 4.0 (v268.5) ------------------------------------------------ *) it sometimes turnes RTF formatted source code into ASCII source code *) it sometimes refuses to set breakpoints in source code with the mouse, although it is possible by typing, but when the breakpoint has been reached it complains that the source code file does not exist *) the editor does not wrap properly *) sometimes when switching from the launch window to a source code window portions of the source code disappear, leaving white space which is only filled in when scrolling out of sight and back again *) the editor places opened files slightly too high (off the screen) *) the editor sometimes scrolls when you want to set a breakpoint causing it to appear in the wrong place *) changing the font of a selection in RTF formatted source code sometimes applies it to the complete file *) When debugging it (first) tries to link with frameworks using the wrong suffix: ',_debug' instead of '_debug'. (It notices this itself.) *) When making the main project builder window the key window, the selected file often changes from the last one accessed (as displayed in the panel containing the list of loaded files). This is very annoying if one wants to look up an accompanying header or implementation file. *) searching in the current file does not work *) the connection to the projectServer often breaks up (perhaps it crashes) *) often the Find panel fails to select the found text *) sometimes all keyboard shortcuts in the Services menu disappear *) it sometimes crashes Gripes about OPENSTEP 4.0 / Mach / Intel ---------------------------------------- *) NSBundle's classNamed method seems out of order, returning nil *) NSImage's imageNamed ditto. *) several class methods of NSApplication used in debugging are not declared in the header file *) even in List mode an NSMatrix always selects at least one cell. Even programmatically selecting the (-1, -1) combination selects the first enabled cell. * when launched InterfaceBuilder says 'objc: class SoundView not linked into application' ========================================================================= -- Jan-Willem de Bruijn - F Y G I R logistic information systems #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!cwix!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.174.65.41!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: Robert F Tobler Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 30 Jan 1997 16:26:53 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5cqi4d$ilq@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> <5cpats$f4t$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11207 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3838 comp.sys.next.programmer:22306 jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote: > [[[[matrixA times: matrixB] times: matrixC] times: matrixD]; you could even use tagged parameters to get something like: [matrixA times: matrixB times: matrixC times: matrixD] But for objective-c, I'd still like to have the possibility to use the following special method names: [matrixA +: matrixB] [matrixA -: matrixB] aso. This would be a nice compromise, in that it enables a rather short notation for custom objects, which is still different from the built-in operators which work on the primitive C-types. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!hwfn!james!ag082 From: ag082@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Andrew Orr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Need money for Programming costs? Date: 30 Jan 1997 14:56:08 GMT Organization: Hamilton-Wentworth FreeNet, Ontario, Canada. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5cqcq8$t11@main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-HWFN] To Find out more about this sensational money making opportunity Email me at with "30 days" as your subject for all the FREE details. DO IT NOW and Make Money! Andrew A. Orr, -- Andrew A. Orr, U.E.L., Dipl. President of the Andrew Club http://www.freenet.hamilton.on.ca/~ag082/Profile.html "Life is like a bowl of Cherries, fifty percent pits!" --- AAO #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!leicester!usenet From: Michael Hudson Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:15:39 +0000 Organization: University of Leicester, UK Lines: 52 Message-ID: <32F0D73B.F18@nowhere.com> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> Reply-To: none NNTP-Posting-Host: mac26.geol.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11208 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3840 comp.sys.next.programmer:22308 David Matiskella wrote: > If you take that attitude why should the language even have operators? > Why not write c=Add(a,b) for every data type? What makes the built in > ones special? Depending on what you are doing operator overloading is > a godsend. If you are writing programs that depend on custom math > types it makes your code a lot simplier. With just 1 operator its not > bad but imagine if you want to do something like m=m1*m2*m3*m4 where > the m's are a bunch of matrices. That is a hell of a lot easier to > read than m=Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(m1,m2),m3),m4). But you shouldn't do that anyway: You'll create 3 temporaries, or more if Matrix_Mult takes it parameters by value (Read your Meyer's). What you should do is m.Assign(m1); m.Multiply_Equals(m2); m.Multiply_Equals(m3); m.Multiply_Equals(m4); Or if Assign & Multiply_Equals return a reference to the Matrix you can chain the above into: m.Assign(m1).Multiply_Equals(m2).Multiply_Equals(m3) .Multiply_Equals(m4); Which is a little easier on the eye. NB: You're example implies operator overloading in the "m=" at the beginning. > If you aren't > doing math heavy things like FEM, 3d graphics and the like, you might > not miss them, but if you are you really do miss them whenever you > have to deal with a language that doesn't have them. All IMNHO of > course > David Matiskella Agreed. It does need watching however. If the operator you're overloading makes the program the slightest bit less intuitive, don't do it. If you have complex numbers, vectors, large integers then it makes sense. Overloading *= to scale a bitmap does not. Having member functions return references enables the chaining method shown above, which can help to compact the code. -- Regards, Michael Hudson Please don't email this address - it's not mine. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:36:39 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 10 Message-ID: References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> <5coesu$cm8@news1.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195837 comp.sys.next.programmer:22309 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184344 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55739 In article <5coesu$cm8@news1.ucsd.edu>, kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) wrote: > Of course, they could sell it on anything they wanted. Apple can't seel it's own products to these people, writing new code wouldn't change that. Hiring people who know how to sell into this market would. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.211.50.75!inet-prime.comshare.com!not-for-mail From: alanf@izzy.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Adobe Bravo Date: 30 Jan 1997 16:58:24 GMT Organization: "Comshare, Inc." Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5cqjvg$s1g$1@inet-prime.comshare.com> References: <8D0E511.09B600067E.uuout@moondog.com> Reply-To: alanf@izzy.net NNTP-Posting-Host: blackbird.comshare.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(n) Cc: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55742 comp.sys.next.programmer:22310 In Thomas Engel wrote: > To some degree it seems funny that the Java/Bravo systems are about to > rebuild OpenStep. Add in the OpenDoc/Java thing and Rhapsody looks more then > interesting. > Yup. Hilarious. Back in December, I attended a Sun presentation where they showed off a (primitive)JavaStation. The presenter indicated at that point the deal between Adobe and Sun regarding Bravo had gone South... so what's the 2D API with Java now, anyway? I think the low-end nature of the JavaOS and it's native UI will leave plenty of room for Apple. As I remember, the phrase "low-end" was repeated like a mantra at the Java presentation. Regards, Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net) disclaimer: my opinions are not necessarily my employers... #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!venus.sun.com!news2me.EBay.Sun.COM!engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM!usenet From: Richard Goldstein Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Adobe Bravo Date: 30 Jan 1997 09:14:00 -0800 Organization: SunSoft, Inc Lines: 30 Sender: rickg@upuaut Message-ID: References: <8D0E511.09B600067E.uuout@moondog.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: upuaut.eng.sun.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.40/XEmacs 20.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:55743 comp.sys.next.programmer:22311 tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) writes: > > I am still not really sure what Bravo is all about. It seems like a stripped > down DPS system without all the interpreter stuff (PSwarps etc.). > Seems like NeXTs/Apples DPS is perfectly suited for Bravo since it might just > be an aditional layer on top of that > You can already get such a layer for DPS, the Modello class library for DPS on ftp.x.org in /contrib/devel_tools/DPS/. Currently it just uses DPS/X, though the few X dependencies are designed to be replaced for non-X DPS. rick -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Richard M. Goldstein richard.goldstein@Eng.Sun.COM 64-bit Linkers, Libs & Executables SunSoft, Inc. "Without time we pick up all the streams, and find the leaves that drift out inbetween..." -Kirkwood #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!xfer.kren.nm.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Counting remaining INODES Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:06:08 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4mwBI0i00iVGQ4m2ZG@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <199701300102.UAA01397@nerc.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <199701300102.UAA01397@nerc.com> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 29-Jan-97 Counting remaining INODES by Timothy J Luoma@nerc.com > How can I tell how many inodes are left on my HD? [ ... ] > Anyone have a code/program/command-I-don't-know that does this? Sure. 'df -i'. > Does it work on other drives (SyQuest SCSI, for example)? Yes-- assuming they have a BSD filesystem on them, of course. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:02:48 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <32F0F058.5AB00B2C@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22313 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184352 comp.sys.mac.system:195854 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55746 Re: filesystem conventions on Mac and NeXT. For what it's worth, I'd like to offer a confession. I break the conventions on my NeXTstep system all the time. (Of course, I have to log on as god in order to do this...) Whenever I have a software package that requires a license key, I keep a copy of the key in the same folder that I keep the application. (One such document per directory full of applications.) So text files aren't put in /LocalApps by convention, and I break the convention a little so that I always know where to find the license keys. NeXTstep doesn't care that I do this, as long as I do it intentionally. Fortunately, if I'm logged on as a mortal, it won't allow me to accidentally drop any of my stuff into the application folders that all of my family members share. It also doesn't allow the toddler to drag my files out of my folders, or to damage the system at all, short of yanking the cord out of the wall. Note that anybody who wants their NeXTstep system to simulate the free-form nature of the Macintosh can just always be logged on as root. [...but don't come cryin' to me... ;-] -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 18:06:49 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk Lines: 41 In article <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn) writes: > > Please tell me that we're not the only ones experiencing problems with > OPENSTEP Developer 4.0 for Mach/Intel. > > I have collected a long list of bugs and would like to know whether other > developers have seen the same ones. Some are minor, but others are really > irritating, almost to the point of making development impossible. > > Thanks in advance for your sympathy :-) ;-) :-( Yes... It's full of bugs. C++ crashes if certain functions are empty xxx::xxx() {}; will not produce a valid object. This one alone took me weeks to track down, as it crashes much later. ObjC++ isn't even supported on NT. I forget how many other bugs I reported (the above being the most memorable), but it was in double figures. I do remember that it crashed halfway through the install when I got bored and moved the mouse! Basically 4.0 is even worse than 3.1 (and that had a good excuse). Both 2.0 and 3.0 were sufficiently stable that I ran them for years without bothering to upgrade (never even saw 2.1, I'm still on 3.2+foundation at home). 4.0 is a disaster. > Also if anyone knows if these bugs have been addressed in 4.1, please tell me > about it. following the bad experience of 4.0 I haven't been able to convince anyone to spring another $X000 on 4.1 (or 4.2). $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:47:18 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22315 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184362 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55750 comp.sys.mac.system:195866 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Now ask yourself, "who defined the conventions being used under an > operating system like NEXTSTEP?" Was it (a) the humans who wrote > NEXTSTEP, or (b) the computers running NEXTSTEP? Yes, and every source of power in the world indirectly comes from stars as well. This is a great way to hide the entire discussion, but also hides the entire complexity of what's going on. The OS that places more limitations on the user in terms of document and file placement is automatically a less flexible OS for that user by definition. It doesn't matter if that OS was written by programmers, Martians, or other computers. > NEXTSTEP solves the problem I described just fine. MacOS doesn't. > MacOS allows you to put files anywhere because single-user machines can > get away with fewer conventions than multiuser machines have. Thius is true, but was to have been solved under Copeland in a similar fashion - the folder manager would return different handles to the Prefs folder depending who was logged in. > Since Apple is moving to a multiuser operating system, I expect to see > Rhapsody have more conventions rather than fewer, and I consider that to > be a good thing for a variety of reasons that I've already explained. The "variety of reasons" you've outlined could all be solved in other, more user friendly, ways. Login prefs for MEO would have the same effect and yet not impose file locations on the user. > Deal with it. "Deal with it"? > And what is the difference between those two? quantitative : "here are the numbers that show..." empirical: "everyone knows that..." > I was quoting from Webster's dictionary-- I wasn't "redefining" > anything, I was using what most people consider a good reference for the > meaning of standard English words. Yes, but I'm a physicist before computer geek, and these are the definitions I've heard and used since grade school. > Your claim that you can't quantify real world feedback? ^^^^^^^^ Yes, in a quantitative measurement. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:14:19 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <32F0E4FB.7EC5F566@screaming.org> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <8mvbN9600iV1I6469b@andrew.cmu.edu> <5coesu$cm8@news1.ucsd.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:195872 comp.sys.next.programmer:22316 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184374 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55758 Maury Markowitz wrote: > kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel) wrote: > > > Of course, they could sell it on anything they wanted. > > Apple can't seel it's own products to these people, writing > new code wouldn't change that. Hiring people who know how to > sell into this market would. I think I see the misunderstanding here. You were talking about the whether or not Apple could achieve a healthy ROI on a clean-room OpenStep implementation. I think everybody else in this thread thought that you were questioning whether or not Apple could have legally done so, according to OpenStep's license, rather than purchasing NeXT. Of course, nothing was preventing Apple from adopting OpenStep as an API if they didn't want to pay NeXT for the port or buy the company outright. They could have just redirected their programmers to the task, passed compliancy tests, and slapped whatever price tag on the product they wanted to, without so much as a single phone call to NeXT -- and it would have been perfectly legal to do so. You are correct, though, that there are other issues involved in making such a strategy succeed, sales being one of them. [followups redirected] -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 30 Jan 1997 16:37:05 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5cr4a1$t2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5cnt9u$tgi@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11209 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3844 comp.sys.next.programmer:22317 In article , ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) wrote: > No such slight was intended. Apologies if it came accross that way. I > was simply trying to distingush between those whose primary profession is > writing code for shrink-wrap software vs those whose primary profession is > other than writing code but accasionally have to do it to accomplish > something in their (non-programming) field. Maybe I should have said > "those who write code to get a (non-programming) job done. Complex > numbers are extremely common in engineering/physice, etc. but not so > common in most commercial software packages. Is that better, or am I just > getting in deeper here? No, I see the distinction you were trying to make. That's why there are special-purpose programming languages. Dropping operator overloading is a miserable choice for an engineering language, since you don't typically run into the software-maintenance and other disadvantages you get in big shrink-wrap products. For your purposes, dropping operator overloading is a big step backwards.. on the other hand, I think that _having_ operator overloading can be a big step backwards for OOP programming in general. Maybe C++ will be increasingly relegated to such engineering applications as Fortran is now, as the software engineering movement shifts toward better languages. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!news.uiowa.edu!news From: clay@herky.cs.uiowa.edu (Matthew Clay) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bad mouthing templates Date: 30 Jan 1997 19:04:31 GMT Organization: The University of Iowa Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5cqrbv$mvo@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> References: <32EF3C1A.5648@ibp.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: herky.cs.uiowa.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11210 comp.sys.next.programmer:22318 From article <32EF3C1A.5648@ibp.de>, by Lars Immisch : > Matthew Clay wrote: >> ... a fault of Smalltalk is it's Number hierarchy. From a practical >> standpoint, numbers just don't make good objects. First, because we've >> been subjected to algebra from grade 8 and on, just don't think of + as >> being much like message that you send to a integer object. It's not that >> it is an impossible view, just not much like our everyday experience. Second, >> it misses out the fact that we often add integers to integers, and often >> know this at compile-time. Again, this doesn't mean Smalltalk can't add, >> just that it misses some fundamental optimizations (realities). Objective-C >> strives for practicality here, leaving purity to Smalltalk. > > Which Smalltalks Number hierarchy are you talking about? Parcplace or > Smalltak V? Actually I was speaking of the older coerce: generality: framework they used to use in ParcPlace. From my recollection, Smalltalk V did not support a similar Number hierarchy and instead used the base capabilities of the underlying hardware. "Fault" above was probably too strong of a word -- "less than desirable in the common case" would be more apt. I don't dislike the coerce: generality: framework, it's a very nice example of negotiation between two objects. It does however leave a lot to be desired on the performance end of things. > IMO Parcplace's Number hierarchy is nicely optimized by it's double > dispatching strategy. (This implies that ArithmeticValue subclasses have > to be abelian, which is not as general as it might be, but heck, thats > what optimization is about). So I do not agree that it misses > fundamental optimizations. Double-dispatching is indeed a nice optimization, but of course, you still have the overhead of method lookup, plus the space overhead for tags, etc. Perhaps an aggressive optimizer could discover many of the common cases, like integer + integer. I am not familiar enough with current Smalltalk implementations to comment. > I have often thought that, in contrary to your opinion, the Number > hierarchy (of Parcplace's) is one of Smalltalks better features. Where > else can you multiply 4 Gig with 2 and still get the correct result? Or > express 1/3 correctly? Of course this is easy enough in C++ to assign as a 1st or 2nd homework in my C++ course (for intermediate students with no C++ experience) when discussing operator overloading :) Supporting this kind of flexibility, without burdening everyone else who simply want to add 1 and 2, is a key feature of C++ A common trend, especially in functional languages, seems to be supporting greater varieties of number systems in programming languages. Perhaps Fortran has lost its appeal or Mathematica is too sophisticated or slow? -mc #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!newsfeed.gte.net!cust9.max55.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net!user From: ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:00:12 -0700 Organization: Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Lines: 33 Message-ID: References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5cnt9u$tgi@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust9.max55.los-angeles.ca.ms.uu.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11211 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3845 comp.sys.next.programmer:22319 In article <5cnt9u$tgi@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > In article , ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD) wrote: > > > There is a substantial schism between people > > whose profession is writing code vs. those who write code to get a job > > done, e.g., mathematicians and engineers. > > I forgot to mention this in the last post, but I find that statement > highly insulting. The implication is that only mathematicians and > engineers write code "to get a job done". ALL programmers write code to > get a job done. Are you implying that non-engineering applications > aren't real work? Not everyone's problem domain is limited to > engineering code. No such slight was intended. Apologies if it came accross that way. I was simply trying to distingush between those whose primary profession is writing code for shrink-wrap software vs those whose primary profession is other than writing code but accasionally have to do it to accomplish something in their (non-programming) field. Maybe I should have said "those who write code to get a (non-programming) job done. Complex numbers are extremely common in engineering/physice, etc. but not so common in most commercial software packages. Is that better, or am I just getting in deeper here? -- G. Gordon Apple, PhD The Ed4U Project Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc. Redondo Beach, CA ga@ed4u.com www.ed4u.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:30:07 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5co4fc$8n4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5cqel3$vp5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22320 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55769 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184394 comp.sys.mac.system:195888 In article <5cqel3$vp5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > I agree about the database filesystem. It's wonderful. A couple of > years ago, NeXT was planning on adding something like a database and/or > object file system to Mecca (the release of NEXTSTEP that eventually > became OPENSTEP for Mach 4.0) -- I can't remember the details -- but it > wasn't a high enough priority for NeXT's current market and goals. This is the one thing I seem to see by looking at what has and has not been done in the NeXT OS'en - ie, the portions of the code that are "new" tend to be lumped around the areas they were interested in at that time. > Maybe now it will be, especially with NT's Object File System coming > out and all. Is it coming out? I thought it was on hold again? Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!berlin.snafu.de!cyberspam!usenet From: julie@ok.com Organization: The.Copy.Cat Shop. Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5cr4m1$5f@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Control: cancel <5cr4m1$5f@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> Approved: hweede@berlin.snafu.de References: <5cr4m1$5f@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> Lines: 5 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 00:44:38 +1 X-Cancelled-By: hweede@berlin.snafu.de X-No-Archive: yes EMP/ECP spam cancelled by hweede@berlin.snafu.de. This is an ongoing spam whose Breidbart index already is above 20. See my report "TheCopyCatShop" or "summary of auto-cancels" in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins. Subject was: Complete Canon Computer System at Closout Price. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ncar!newshost.lanl.gov!corvette.mst6.lanl.gov!tesuque!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Suddenly DPS "Error: rangecheck;" after compile Date: 30 Jan 1997 09:14:27 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5cpopj$om2@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I've had this happen to me numerous times while developing applications using Interface Builder and Project Builder under NEXTSTEP 3.3/Intel: I recompile and launch the app, and I suddenly get DPS errors, and the App icon on the bottom of the screen stays "white". Jan 29 22:52:09 localhost BuggyApp[11919]: DPS client library error: PostScript program error, DPSContext f47a0 Jan 29 22:52:09 localhost BuggyApp [11919]: %%[ Error: rangecheck; OffendingCommand: ufill ]%% Jan 29 22:52:09 localhost BuggyApp [11919]: DPS client library error: Invalid tag in returned object, DPSContext f47a0, data 1049532 Jan 29 22:52:09 localhost BuggyApp [11919]: DPS client library error: Invalid tag in returned object, DPSContext f47a0, data 1036052 Now, sometimes, this disappears as mysteriously as it appeared. But right now, it ain't so I'm posting this. I also had a situation where the app had been giving this error, but stopped (on a 32 bit color NS/Intel system) but when I compiled it for NeXT hardware, it gave a DPS error (with the white icon) on a monochrome NeXTstation. Any tips will be greatly appreciated. -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!ncar!newshost.lanl.gov!corvette.mst6.lanl.gov!tesuque!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Suddenly DPS "error ... Date: 30 Jan 1997 09:37:59 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5cpq5n$rjt@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Ah, I think I found the problem. I had resized a group border around a display View where it just nicked off the top of the View. When I enlarged the border a bit, the DPS error disappeared. Sorry to take up the bandwidth. Perhaps this tip is useful info for others. -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c Subject: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 30 Jan 97 14:22:25 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 98 Distribution: comp Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-21.access.one.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22323 comp.lang.objective-c:5189 Something I'd like to see in Objective-C would be static inline methods. Say you have something like the Storage object, and you have a method like: @implementation Storage . -(void *)elementAt:(unsigned)index; { if( indexnumElements, ss=aStorage->elementSize; dataPtr=aStorage->dataPtr; for( ii=0; ii (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 30 Jan 1997 11:43:47 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> <32F0D73B.F18@nowhere.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Red Gnus v0.71/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11212 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3847 comp.sys.next.programmer:22324 [normally I'd send this by e-mail, but Michael seems downright determined not to get any.] Michael Hudson writes: > David Matiskella wrote: > > [...] That is a hell of a lot easier to read than > > m=Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(m1,m2),m3),m4). > > [...] > NB: You're example implies operator overloading in the "m=" at the > beginning. Um, why on earth do you think it implies that? If Matrix is typedef'd as a pointer to a multi-dimensional array, and Matrix_Mult returns that type, you can handle the assignment without operator overloading. I know we silly C programmers did something like the above before C++ reared its head out of the muck... -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 30 Jan 1997 16:31:13 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5cr3v1$4f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5cqel3$vp5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22325 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55781 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184420 comp.sys.mac.system:195911 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5cqel3$vp5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > I agree about the database filesystem. It's wonderful. A couple of > > years ago, NeXT was planning on adding something like a database and/or > > object file system to Mecca (the release of NEXTSTEP that eventually > > became OPENSTEP for Mach 4.0) -- I can't remember the details -- but it > > wasn't a high enough priority for NeXT's current market and goals. > This is the one thing I seem to see by looking at what has and has not > been done in the NeXT OS'en - ie, the portions of the code that are "new" > tend to be lumped around the areas they were interested in at that time. Well, obviously. That's how it is with any OS. > > Maybe now it will be, especially with NT's Object File System coming > > out and all. > Is it coming out? I thought it was on hold again? I dunno. It may be just more Microsoft vaporware to paralyze the market. Last I heard it was due out in 1998. Anyone have better info? -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.75.213.193!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 19:30:36 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5cqel3$vp5@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5cr3v1$4f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22326 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55785 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184428 comp.sys.mac.system:195920 In article <5cr3v1$4f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Well, obviously. That's how it is with any OS. Sure, but in this particular case that seems to result in the OS being pulled in many seemingly random directions. When they started they had the "chore" of building the best (and first) commercial OOPS based OS. They got started on that in convincing fashion, but since then we have differing directions following market trends. That too is par for the course. However one must contrast this to Be, where it's being created ex-nihlo. This is not a comment on NeXT as much as it is a statement of realities of the market. > I dunno. It may be just more Microsoft vaporware to paralyze the > market. Last I heard it was due out in 1998. Anyone have better > info? Well I heard that it was to be a part of the overall OOPS effort. However recent comments from MS seem to imply (rather directly actually) that the kernel of all future OS's will be the NT kernel. What they didn't say, but seem to imply, is that that's the _current_ NT kernel. And I don't have the reference handy any more (I'm thinking BackOffice though) as I read this when I was in Ireland, but I got the impression that the OOPS disk system was on indefinite hold too. Not the driver side of things (no info one way or the other there) but the "your disk is just a big object store" format seems to have disappeared completely. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.magicnet.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!newshub.more.net!news.missouri.edu!usenet.umr.edu!sanjeev From: sanjeev@ee.umr.edu (Sanjeev Agarwal) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Help... [CD ROM on next]... Date: 31 Jan 1997 01:19:21 GMT Organization: UMR Missouri's Technological University Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5crhap$a58$3@news.cc.umr.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ee.umr.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] I had installed a CD ROM driver (6x) on Pentium 133 running NS 3.3. Of late I cannot seem to access the CD ROM driver (for music CDs or otherwise). I was wondering what could have gone wrong. Could it have been some bug in CD Player that comes with the system. What do I need to do to correct this. Thank you .. Sanjeev #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.magicnet.net!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!newshub.more.net!news.missouri.edu!usenet.umr.edu!sanjeev From: sanjeev@ee.umr.edu (Sanjeev Agarwal) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Help.. [Network Printer].. Date: 31 Jan 1997 01:20:05 GMT Organization: UMR Missouri's Technological University Lines: 10 Message-ID: <5crhc5$a58$4@news.cc.umr.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ee.umr.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] HI, We have a pentium 133 running NextStep 3.3. I was trying to connect a Network printer (postScript printer) to this machine. What do I need to do for this to work. Thank you very much .. Sanjeev #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!hwfn!cyberspam!main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca!matt From: Andrew Orr Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5cqcq8$t11@main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> Control: cancel <5cqcq8$t11@main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> Date: 30 Jan 1997 18:10:32 GMT Organization: Hamilton-Wentworth FreeNet Lines: 31 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-Cancelled-By: Matthew Kelly X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970104] ancelling MMF. Article cancelled from within tin [v1.3 unoff BETA release 970104] Path: hwfn!james!ag082 From: ag082@freenet.hamilton.on.ca (Andrew Orr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Need money for Programming costs? Date: 30 Jan 1997 14:56:08 GMT Organization: Hamilton-Wentworth FreeNet, Ontario, Canada. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5cqcq8$t11@main.freenet.hamilton.on.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: james.freenet.hamilton.on.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2-HWFN] To Find out more about this sensational money making opportunity Email me at with "30 days" as your subject for all the FREE details. DO IT NOW and Make Money! Andrew A. Orr, -- Andrew A. Orr, U.E.L., Dipl. President of the Andrew Club http://www.freenet.hamilton.on.ca/~ag082/Profile.html "Life is like a bowl of Cherries, fifty percent pits!" --- AAO #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: sven Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 30 Jan 1997 20:42:34 GMT Organization: "SNET dial access service" Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5cr13q$gl@goofy.snet.net> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: hrfr03-sh5-port15.snet.net In-Reply-To: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 On 01/30/97, Jan-Willem de Bruijn wrote: > >Please tell me that we're not the only ones experiencing problems with >OPENSTEP Developer 4.0 for Mach/Intel. > >I have collected a long list of bugs and would like to know whether other >developers have seen the same ones. Some are minor, but others are really >irritating, almost to the point of making development impossible. > You are not alone. Also irritated, Sven #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 31 Jan 1997 04:11:26 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5crrde$19s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca7-24.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jan 30 10:11:26 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn) wrote: > Please tell me that we're not the only ones experiencing problems with > OPENSTEP Developer 4.0 for Mach/Intel. You're not :-) > Also if anyone knows if these bugs have been addressed in 4.1, please tell me > about it. Most of your listed bugs have been fixed in 4.1/Mach, but 4.1/NT isn't as solid as the Mach version. But 4.1 Developer still doesn't feel finished to me. 4.2 is rumored to be just around the corner. I bet 4.2 will be pretty solid. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!seicom.de!flop.schwaben.de!news From: hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM (Holger Hoffstaette) Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Distribution: comp X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) Sender: news@flop.schwaben.de Organization: NeXT Ghetto People feat. St.Eve Message-ID: References: X-Nntp-Posting-Host: flop Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:42:16 GMT Lines: 28 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22331 comp.lang.objective-c:5191 Scott Hess wrote: >(lots about method inlining) Good points - but I think what might be necessary is the equivalent of (shudder) Java's final keyword, so the compiler knows about what can be pessimized and what should not. Not sure how this would work out if you start playing with perform: and friends.. I've (sort of) solved the overhead of unnecessary method dispatch by extending e.g. any collection classes with more 'comfortable' methods that tend to do a lot of stuff at once, and do not use repeated method dispatch, but rather access their methods' implementation by using a straight C function call. Turns out to work great, encapsulates the C uglyness in a single (or several, but at least defined) places, and helps tremendously during large collection sweeps (for example repeated munging of arrays-of-dictionaries in a WOF app). Also, you can start with a shoddy implementation at first, and then tune those parts that suck the performance without really disturbing any other methods' implementation.. Holger -- Object web weaver | @work: hhoff@media-group.de Media group | @home: hhoff@schwaben.de (NeXTmail & PGP ok) Stuttgart, Germany | OPENSTEP. Resistance is futile. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.mel.connect.com.au!news.access.net.au!news.netspace.net.au!news.mira.net.au!harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au!mail_gw.fwall.telecom.com.au!cdn_news.telecom.com.au!usenet From: Nigel Pearson Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 16:27:20 +1100 Organization: Telstra Australia Lines: 39 Message-ID: <32F182B8.78E0@ind.tansu.com.au> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c4a19$bja@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.135.128.45 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4m) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22332 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55820 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184528 comp.sys.mac.system:195975 William Raphael Hix wrote: >...Imagine the following version of basic version of Rhapsody. > > 1) A Mach 3ish kernal (could be from NeXT, Apple, PPC Linux, Sun) > > 2) A stripped down version of the BSD emulated services... > > 3) OpenStep... > > This would be MacOS 8, selling for about $100... > > In addition there would be the optional Unix Application Environment (UAE) > or perhaps the NeXT Application Environment (NAE) ... Perhaps it'd even have > a OpenStep 4.2 mode for the appearence manager. This'd be full Unix > compatibility (perhaps even with binary compatibility with AIX for PPC > apps), except no cc, X11R6, perhaps no NFS. All of these would I'm sure > be available from third parties. Hell, if Mach is in there somewhere, it may be pretty easy to port the current MkLinux to it. Just change the MkLinux kernel from being a monolithic kernel to a kernel interface layer which implements Linux services ontop of the Mach 3 microkernel. ... > Would this satisfy everyone? It would me. -- | Nigel Pearson, nigel@ind.tansu.com.au |"so we came up with a golden rule | | Telstra IN Platforms, Sydney, Aust. | whatever works for you | | Office: 9206 3468 Fax: 9281 1301 | so we started up a whole new school| | Mobile: 014 611 322 Home: 9579 3293 | where nothing's absolute" C.Peacock| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 31 Jan 1997 00:32:15 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5cs04v$a0h@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5cr3v1$4f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22333 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55830 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184554 comp.sys.mac.system:195999 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > In article <5cr3v1$4f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > Well, obviously. That's how it is with any OS. > Sure, but in this particular case that seems to result in the OS being > pulled in many seemingly random directions. > ... but since then we have > differing directions following market trends. That too is par for the > course. However one must contrast this to Be, where it's being created > ex-nihlo. This is not a comment on NeXT as much as it is a statement of > realities of the market. Just wait. Be will get pulled in differing directions following market trends, just like everyone else. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news.claremont.edu!not-for-mail From: 6jim@acb2.cgs.edu (Jim Kieley) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: OS 4.0 - cannot exec cpp-precomp Date: 30 Jan 1997 23:47:17 GMT Organization: The Claremont Colleges Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5crbu5$c55$1@cinenews.claremont.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acb2.cgs.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) I am not up on Openstep even though I have it installed on a couple machines. A long story made short: things that comile fine under NS 3.3 produce the following error under Openstep 4.0: cc: installation problem, cannot exec cpp-precomp: No such file or directory Any explanation or help would be appreciated. Jim Kieley jim@cgs.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!vas.bull.de!usenet From: Petr Novak Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:36:59 +0100 Organization: Microcomp GmbH , Cologne, Germany Lines: 12 Message-ID: <32F1BD3B.25CB@microcomp.de> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> Reply-To: novak@microcomp.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.120.248.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) 4.0 is very bad. If you would use Apple's codenames style for future OS versions (Sonata, Rhapsody etc.) then 4.0 should be called REQUIEM. 4.1 is better , but still not sufficiently. I didn't have a day without "malfunction". I wonder about useless discussions on Net what fantastic features will Rhapsody include, how easy will be support every platform etc. Such prophets should try develop with Openstep and they will get real. Petr Novak #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!news From: Alan Lovejoy Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:45:39 -0800 Organization: Modulation Lines: 60 Message-ID: <32E403A3.788@concentric.net> References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32DEDCB2.24E6@concentric.net> <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50195.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; U) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22336 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55845 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184638 comp.sys.mac.system:196078 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32DFF7DB.167B@concentric.net>, Alan Lovejoy > wrote: > > > This would make it more difficult to use C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG, > > Assembly and other non-OO languages with the OS. > > You make that sounds like a bad thing. It's a bad thing if you want to attract customers who intend to use those languages, and don't want to change. Personally, I think those languages are seriosly sub-optimal in many ways and for many usages, but Apple can't afford to alienate potential customers. > But seriously, this strikes me as a problem for data-processing like > tasks only. The entire GUI is already OOPS lib based, and I don't see > anyone crying over that. Do you? OpenStep is a framework for writing GUI-based apps. If such frameworks exist for C, FORTRAN, COBOL, BASIC, RPG or Assembly (I don't think they do in all cases), then those frameworks are not compatible with OpenStep. And a COBOL shop would be interested in porting their existing apps over to Rhapsody, which would mean porting over their existing framework(s) for doing GUI apps (if they have such). And the original question wasn't the API for OpenStep, but rather the API to the kernel and the standard UNIX utilities. Those had better be accessible to COBOL and FORTRAN, or else a large and important base of potential customers will not use Rhapsody (I wish they'd change languages, but they won't). > Although I haven't even used ObjC on the NeXT platform yet, I > understand that many (all) of the above languages already exist. Are they > all limited to creating programs that run from the CLI only? If not, it > seems this isn't much of a problem after all. Don't know. I'm not all that familiar with NextStep/OpenStep per se. > > more difficult to use OO languages whose object models were not compatible > > with the one used to implement the kernel and libraries. > > Only in their current form. Apple's got more and more code being based > on SOM, which has no such limitation. Good. > > One could perhaps use CORBA/SOM/DSOM to address such issues. But CORBA exacts > > a noticeable performance penalty. > > Well I might be missing something here, but I always believed that if > your compiler talked SOM, there was no inherent overhead. I've heard differently. But I could be wrong. I'd be happy to wrong on this pont, actually. -- Alan L. Lovejoy |==============================================| Smalltalk Consultant | Beware of Geeks bearing GIFs! | alovejoy@concentric.net |==============================================| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:37:22 -0500 Organization: Atria Software Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <5cr3v1$4f@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5cs04v$a0h@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22337 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55848 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184640 comp.sys.mac.system:196084 In article <5cs04v$a0h@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > Just wait. Be will get pulled in differing directions following market > trends, just like everyone else. Of course, it's a truism. But for now they have a more complete package, ignoring the tools side that is. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.stealth.net!not-for-mail From: Software Solutions International Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Part time help needed - Mid town New York Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:28:18 -0600 Organization: Software Solutions International Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32F21DA2.3AD3@stealth.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: softsolint.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) CC: softsolint@stealth.net One of our clients is interested in enhancing their software written in objective C. They are looking for programmers with objective C experience. If you are interested in part time ( evening and/or weekend) work please contact the undersigned as soon as possible or reply back so that we can contact you. Vimal Software Solutions Phone 212-480-2112 Fax: 212-480-2114 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!vnetnews.value.net!ms.genetics.bio-rad.com!user From: msoori@genetics.bio-rad.com (msoori) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 31 Jan 1997 17:09:56 GMT Organization: Bio-Rad Laboratories Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> <5cpats$f4t$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ms.genetics.bio-rad.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11220 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3857 comp.sys.next.programmer:22339 In article <5cpats$f4t$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > I can see the case against using named _prefix_ notation functions, but > that's not at all > the same as _infix_ method names. > > [[[[matrixA times: matrixB] times: matrixC] times: matrixD]; > > is not significantly harder to read than: > > matrixA * matrixB * matrixC * matrixD; > > Especially if you need to add parenthises for some reason. It _is_ more > wordy, but it's still > easy to read. Give me a break! What about more complex functions? This is now begining to look like lisp with "()" replaced by "[]" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Mahesh P. Sooriarachchi. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Work: msoori@genetics.bio-rad.com | ~ ~ Home: mahesh@value.net | This space for rent! ~ ~ Home Page: http://value.net/~mahesh/ | ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sover.net!jinx6568 From: jinx6568@sover.net.egg.sausage.and.spam (Chris Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 31 Jan 1997 18:49:55 GMT Organization: Airwindows Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5b3scd$8et@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> <5b7chs$bi3@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> <5bll0l$me7@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com> <32E296A4.4261@concentric.net> <32E3158E.5785@concentric.net> <32EF0661.6A64@etm.co.at> <3303f619.1643476734@mambo> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm2a10.bratt.sover.net X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184707 comp.sys.mac.system:196126 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55887 comp.sys.next.programmer:22340 In article <3303f619.1643476734@mambo>, sangria@inlink.com (Sang K. Choe) wrote: > >The POSIX subsystem of Windows NT is only POSIX.1, which does'nt include > >any POSIX commands. Some POSIX commands are part of the Windows NT > >Resource Kit, which must be purchased separately. > Or you can download a fairly complete set from CyGnus (www.cygnus.com) > for free. > -- Sang. This is precisely the issue raised by some of the discussions over Rhapsody. If Rhapsody does not include the set, then maintainers (who are already used to telnetting into a box and using those tools since they are accessible through telnet) cannot depend on the tools being there. The potential of a user to download them for personal use is sort of irrelevant- odds are there are more refined tools available, anyhow. The issue is the default existence of certain really crude but functional tools that can be remotely accessed using existing methods. I've actually come to realize I'm strongly in favor of having these things in Rhapsody- hell, they'd fit on my existing hard disk which is a mere 280 megs. It is interesting to see that this ball has already been dropped by NT. Is this Cygnus package popular, or is it rarely found installed in actual systems? There could be a situation developing in which 'if you want to be sure of Unix-type remote access on a non 'unix' system, you have to get your users Macs'. Jinx_tigr (aka Chris Johnson) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 31 Jan 1997 21:21:24 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5ctnok$ptf@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c0fue$2e7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32E3D1EA.7F8F@exnext.com> <5c1daj$nhr@duke.squonk.net> <5c6o55$ojc@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:196148 comp.sys.next.programmer:22341 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184731 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55895 Charles William Swiger (cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 28-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld : Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. : > nor would it have got them NeXT's customer list. Those alone are probably : > worth more to Apple than a new OS for the Mac. : : In order to keep NeXT's customer list, Apple needs to provide an : operating system, development environment, and so forth which is : comparible to the functionality of NeXT's current products. : But will Rhapsody be it, or will OpenStep 5? be developed in parallel? This is one of the questions Apple has yet to answer clearly. It might be that Apple hasn't decided yet. This decision will determine how much of Rhapsody's expanded API makes it to Intel hardware, and how fast. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!cs.tu-berlin.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!newscaster-1.mcast.net!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.tfs.net!user From: tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:10:38 -0600 Organization: The Wandering Powerbook... Lines: 141 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: node23.tfs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22342 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184738 comp.sys.mac.system:196155 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55898 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 20-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld >Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >>> I don't understand why you want to scatter your applications all over >>> the filesystem. >> >> Because it's MY file system. You don't have to like it, do what you wish. > >Well, if you want to scatter your applications around even though it >makes your computer less functional and harder for other people to use, >you can. I don't see why anyone would want to make their computer >harder to use, but then, that's just my preference for thinking >rationally showing through.... Funny, I put all my graphics applications in a Graphics folder, all my utilities in a Utilities folder, all my internet applications in an Internet folder, a subfolder to the Communications folder where I put all my communications applications... I guess I just am not thinking rationally. I know other users who have a folder for each of their applications, and put all the documents from that application in a subfolder within that folder. Who am I to argue if it works for them? Bottom line: Different strokes for different folks, and there is *no* One True Way to Organize. Period. >>> I don't know anyone who does this. Even the Mac >>> people tend to put everything in the Applications folder or a >>> subdirectory of it. >> >> Balogna, I can't think of a single Mac I've every had the pleasure of >> using that had all of it's programs arranged such, and that's a large >> number of Macs (in the hundreds). That's just _wrong_. > >No, it's not, although I am unsurprised to discover that a Mac advocate >has not had exposure to large computer networks administered by an >organization. For example, CMU has hundreds of Macs in the clusters >with a very consistent filesystem layout. > >Most Mac users here like the idea, so they generally arrange their >computers in similar ways to the cluster machines-- and there are well >over 1000 Macs on campus here. Great. You're managing an organizational network in a lab situation, and you have other users arranging their machines so that there's less confusion for them when they use one of the lab machines. That's fine for them, but it doesn't say anything about all the individual Macs in use out there, not to mention all the network situations where it's one individual using the same Mac all day every day. Is it not more efficient for that user to arrange his system the way that's fastest and easiest for him to work with? Lab situations are IMHO an isolated situation that have, and *should* have, little influence on the way other people run their systems. Users in a lab, where any user might find himself using any computer, benefit from a standardized setup; but when one user is working with one computer, it makes more sense to organize it in the way that's most efficient for *them*. From another post: In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 21-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld >Exclusive: App.. by Maury Markowitz@softarc. >>> I don't see why anyone would want to make their computer >>> harder to use, but then, that's just my preference for thinking >>> rationally showing through.... >> >> Oh, it's terribly rational for the computer to dictate where the user >> places files, rather than the other way around. > >Correct. A multiuser computer system has conventions for where you >should place common files (like applications, fonts, and other such >resources) which are supposedly intended for use by all users. This is probably where most of the difference is coming from. I don't *want* a multiuser computer system, with all of the security kaka that involves. We're talking about *personal computers* here, and there's a reason for the word "personal" in the label -- these are computers designed for use by one person. As I said, I believe lab systems and servers are the exceptions, not the rule that you should design a personal computer OS around. The explosion of the computer market since the late 70's has been driven by personal computers -- not servers, not workstations, not multi-user systems. I think there's a reason for that. I want a system that I can control myself, set up any way I please to fit *my* habits and working patterns, without having to jump through security and permission hoops designed for multiuser setups my computer will never be used in. To bring back a metaphor from the '80s -- I oppose the high priests of the MIS department, and support individual user empowerment. To repeat the quote: >> Oh, it's terribly rational for the computer to dictate where the user >> places files, rather than the other way around. > >Correct. This is the antithesis of the personal computer movement, and it's the exact opposite of everything the Mac has stood for. I don't know if you paid much attention to the early Mac market, or Apple's early advertising -- but I still remember an early Mac demo, and the speech-synthesis application that went with it: "Wouldn't it be easier to teach computers about people, rather than teaching people about computers?" That philosophy is one of the things that's kept me loyal to the Mac, through thick and thin: the computer should adapt to the user, and computing power should be used to make things easier for the user -- not the other way around. The computer is there for the user, after all, not the user for the computer. >For that matter, single-user computer systems have some of those >conventions too-- what else did you think the special nature of the >"System folder" represents under MacOS? True... But: a) The organization in the System Folder was put in mainly for the *user's* benefit. I remember when it was reorganized, with System 7.0 in 1991. Previously, all OS-related items were simply dumped into the System Folder; System 7 created subfolders to organize those items, designed to be logical and understandable *from the user's standpoint*, with names like "Control Panels", "Preferences", "Startup Items," and so forth. b) These 'conventions' are limited to the OS itself; users are free to organize the rest of the computer as they please. Travis Butler (The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS; tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook; ; Mac page ) ...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 31 Jan 1997 22:02:08 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5ctq50$s7v@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <5b1p4k$8sf@news1.ucsd.edu> <5b4kbm$642@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@cs <5cnu5o$eus@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <32EFF92A.526D@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22343 comp.sys.next.advocacy:55908 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:184764 comp.sys.mac.system:196173 Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: : William Raphael Hix wrote: : > Unfortunately, the number of users who want a Unix OS and productivity : > apps is small (even though it includes me 8-)). Apple would be better : > served concentrating on larger markets, like content development, : > publishing, and the like, where the Apple name on a robust, stable and : > fast OS will quickly gain favor. Hopefully, we Unix users will get what : > we want, but I'm not holding my breath. : : You're assuming that the only way to market a Unix OS is as a : Unix OS. This is not a good assumption. Rhapsody will have copious : features which will allow it to be marketed to people who don't : care one whit about Unix. Apple need only mention the Unix : feature as one among dozens. The best bet would be to : emphasize it in some marketing campaigns, and de-emphasize : it in others. When trying to sell to techies, sell the Unix, : along with everything else. When selling to artists, sell the : power, ease of use, Display Postscript, and software - sell : it as a Macintosh. : There is nothing to preclude Apple from releasing Rhapsody with full BSD compliance, provided all user and system administration functions are fully GUI'd. However with the small interest in Unix in the target communities, non-compliance with BSD also wouldn't hurt much. They've said they'll build on the OpenStep API and that they'll have a modern kernal, though which kernal is still up for grabs. They'll need to interface the API with the kernal, a function now performed largely by the BSD libs. Thus Rhapsody will probably include the BSD libs, unless Apple decides they have a reason to replace them which is good enough to justify the time and effort it will take. The choice of kernal might play a role in this decision, since a kernal change will require porting the BSD libs. The case for the /bin parts of BSD is weaker. If the BSD libs are present, then adding the BSD /bin parts is easy, though it might be a separate product Apple or a third party sells. If the kernal change results in the BSD libs being dropped, full BSD compliance is a lot of work. However if the new kernal is Sun's Solaris, then SysV Unix compatibility is easy. Based on these factors, my opinion is that full BSD compliance will be possible, though I'm expecting that I'll need to pay for an additional product. Perhaps by the WWDC we'll get a better idea of how Apple feels on this issue. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: 31 Jan 1997 22:31:43 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5ctrsf$j2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: New User/Developer Date: 1 Feb 97 00:08:20 -0600 Lines: 36 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.101.238.36 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a2 X-News-Servers: news.alpha.net X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.alpha.net/comp.sys.next.programmer Wow! As a long time and very fanatical Mac user/developer/evangelist, all I have to say is that I wish I had checked out Next sooner. :-( I am very impressed after only 1 day of setting-up and getting to know OPENSTEP 4.1 for Mach/Pentium. I have not been this excited about an OS since the original Macintosh hit the scene in 84! Pentium P-90 16meg/2gig SCSI II Fast PCI, S3 PCI video, Soundblaster AWE/32 Installation was very smooth and easy (had the mouse on com2 and this was a point of confusion at first, plugged into com 1 and all was well). How much faster will I be if I upgrade my ram to 32/64 megs? I dug right into the Developer tutorial and have come across an anomaly that is probably very easy to remedy and I look for your advise. In the Currency Exchange tutorial on page 27 they direct me to drag the NSReturnSign icon from the nib file window onto the Convert button, but there is no NSReturnSign icon in the nib file! What did I do wrong, or better yet, how can I get that icon to show up? TIA Mark Jenkins markj@inwave.com MIME, Cyberdog mail OK (Soon to be NeXT Mail compatible! :-) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.ott.hookup.net!loki.tor.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: New User/Developer Date: 1 Feb 1997 07:08:49 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5cuq61$3nn@news.digifix.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 On 01/31/97, "Mark Jenkins" wrote: >Wow! > >As a long time and very fanatical Mac user/developer/evangelist, all I have >to say is that I wish I had checked out Next sooner. :-( > >I am very impressed after only 1 day of setting-up and getting to know >OPENSTEP 4.1 for Mach/Pentium. > >I have not been this excited about an OS since the original Macintosh hit >the scene in 84! > >Pentium P-90 16meg/2gig SCSI II Fast PCI, S3 PCI video, Soundblaster AWE/32 > >Installation was very smooth and easy (had the mouse on com2 and this was a >point of confusion at first, plugged into com 1 and all was well). > >How much faster will I be if I upgrade my ram to 32/64 megs? > I'm not sure if it would feel faster, but it would feel smoother. :-) With the price of RAM now adays, its pretty cheap. 64M can be had to $300. >I dug right into the Developer tutorial and have come across an anomaly >that is probably very easy to remedy and I look for your advise. > >In the Currency Exchange tutorial on page 27 they direct me to drag the >NSReturnSign icon from the nib file window onto the Convert button, but >there is no NSReturnSign icon in the nib file! > >What did I do wrong, or better yet, how can I get that icon to show up? > >TIA > >Mark Jenkins >markj@inwave.com >MIME, Cyberdog mail OK (Soon to be NeXT Mail compatible! :-) > > > > > -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 1 Feb 1997 03:05:51 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5cubuf$ibm@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> <32F1BD3B.25CB@microcomp.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca17-12.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jan 31 7:05:51 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Petr Novak wrote: > 4.1 is better , but still not sufficiently. I didn't have a day without > "malfunction". > > I wonder about useless discussions on Net what fantastic features will > Rhapsody include, how easy will be support every platform etc. Such > prophets should try develop with Openstep and they will get real. You are making an assumption that Rhapsody == OS 4.1 which I'm certain will be false. NeXT made huge numbers of changes in moving from NS to OS. They did it essentially in one step (OS existed in a minor way in NS 3.3). The rate of change from 4.0 to 4.1 suggests that 4.2 will be quite good. Rhapsody will follow even later so should benefit even more. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 1 Feb 1997 09:44:39 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5cv3a7$n1f$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: <5cubuf$ibm@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article <5cubuf$ibm@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) writes: > Petr Novak wrote: [..OS 4.x is terrible, Rhapsody will be as well..] > You are making an assumption that Rhapsody == OS 4.1 which I'm certain > will be false. NeXT made huge numbers of changes in moving from NS to OS. > They did it essentially in one step (OS existed in a minor way in NS 3.3). > The rate of change from 4.0 to 4.1 suggests that 4.2 will be quite good. > Rhapsody will follow even later so should benefit even more. In addition, OS had been de-emphasized significantly, with focus shifting to WebObjects. Now the focus of not just NeXT but Apple as well is on getting the best possible OS out the door. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news1.istar.ca!news From: jsamson@istar.ca (Jean-Paul C. Samson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: New User/Developer Date: 1 Feb 1997 08:42:49 GMT Organization: iSTAR Internet Incorporated Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5cuvm9$lb4@news.istar.ca> References: <5cuq61$3nn@news.digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts6-12.edm.istar.ca In-Reply-To: <5cuq61$3nn@news.digifix.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-10001-01 >>I dug right into the Developer tutorial and have come across an >>anomaly that is probably very easy to remedy and I look for your >>advise. In the Currency Exchange tutorial on page 27 they direct me >>to drag the NSReturnSign icon from the nib file window onto the >>Convert button, but there is no NSReturnSign icon in the nib file! >>What did I do wrong, or better yet, how can I get that icon to show >>up? They took out the return sign icon. Instead, the default button now has a thick black bezel, like Windows. Sadly, the Developer Tutorial book is filled with inaccuracies. They didn't do a very good job proofreading and testing the book. Maybe NeXT just ran out of time in preparing for the OPENSTEP 4.0 release. The book will give you a good idea of how to go about programming OPENSTEP applications, but don't expect the resulting programs to work very well. -- -===================================================================- Jean-Paul C. Samson -=- jsamson@istar.ca -=- NeXTmail & MIME welcome -============- http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~jeanpaul/ -=============- -===================================================================- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!Germany.EU.net!Dortmund.Germany.EU.net!news From: EDV@lfa.hal.eunet.de (Thomas Richter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Master-Detail-Relationship problems Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 10:43:24 GMT Organization: Landesamt fuer archaeologische Denkmalpflege Sachsen-Anhalt) Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5cva49$oao@news.Dortmund.Germany.EU.net> Reply-To: EDV@lfa.hal.eunet.de NNTP-Posting-Host: lfa.hal.eunet.de X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Hi all, i am using NEXTSTEP 3.3 and Developer and EOF 1.1 with installed Patches on Intel Hardware and Sybase Databases. With EOF 1.1 I cannot use Master-Detail-Relationships (no fetchs of detail records when selecting a record in the master table). Master-Peer-Configurations work fine. On my home maschine (equivalent software but msql- and Postgres95- Databases) i have no problems with Master-Detail-Relationships. Thanks for any help Thomas Richter Landesamt fuer archaeologische Denkmalpflege Sachsen-Anhalt, Gemany EDV@lfa.hal.eunet.de #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!pixie.mcom.com!news From: David Matiskella Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 18:43:01 -0800 Organization: Another Netscape News Server User Lines: 66 Message-ID: <32F2ADB0.41DD@netscape.com> References: <5c9h5n$rju@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5capi6$mqk@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5coghm$287$5@majipoor.cygnus.com> <32EFDC32.3ADC@netscape.com> <32F0D73B.F18@nowhere.com> Reply-To: netscape.com NNTP-Posting-Host: h-198-95-250-234.mcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11225 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3871 comp.sys.next.programmer:22351 Michael Hudson wrote: > > David Matiskella wrote: > > If you take that attitude why should the language even have operators? > > Why not write c=Add(a,b) for every data type? What makes the built in > > ones special? Depending on what you are doing operator overloading is > > a godsend. If you are writing programs that depend on custom math > > types it makes your code a lot simplier. With just 1 operator its not > > bad but imagine if you want to do something like m=m1*m2*m3*m4 where > > the m's are a bunch of matrices. That is a hell of a lot easier to > > read than m=Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(Matrix_Mult(m1,m2),m3),m4). > > But you shouldn't do that anyway: You'll create 3 temporaries, or more > if Matrix_Mult takes it parameters by value (Read your Meyer's). > > What you should do is > > m.Assign(m1); > m.Multiply_Equals(m2); > m.Multiply_Equals(m3); > m.Multiply_Equals(m4); > > Or if Assign & Multiply_Equals return a reference to the Matrix you can > chain the above into: > > m.Assign(m1).Multiply_Equals(m2).Multiply_Equals(m3) > .Multiply_Equals(m4); > > Which is a little easier on the eye. > > NB: You're example implies operator overloading in the "m=" at the > beginning. Of course. Does object C support references? > > If you aren't > > doing math heavy things like FEM, 3d graphics and the like, you might > > not miss them, but if you are you really do miss them whenever you > > have to deal with a language that doesn't have them. All IMNHO of > > course > > David Matiskella > > Agreed. > It does need watching however. If the operator you're overloading makes > the program the slightest bit less intuitive, don't do it. > If you have complex numbers, vectors, large integers then it makes > sense. > Overloading *= to scale a bitmap does not. Agreed. If you are overloading the mathematical operators for any non math purposed then your code is going to be a lot tougher to read. If it isn't clear what the operation does than you shouldn't overload the operator. An example is vector multiplication. Are you talking about the dot product or the cross product? I have seen decent arguments for both which means whenever I see a vector multiplicatoin I have to think about whats going on. Bad. > Having member functions return references enables the chaining method > shown above, which can help to compact the code. > > -- > Regards, > Michael Hudson > > Please don't email this address - it's not mine. David #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!sun4nl!surfnet.nl!news.tue.nl!usenet From: tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Concerning Function Overloading in Obj-C.(Re: Multiple Inheritance) Date: 01 Feb 1997 16:20:57 +0100 Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology Lines: 44 Sender: tiggr@tom.ics.ele.tue.nl Message-ID: References: <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5ccaka$n27@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tom.ics.ele.tue.nl In-reply-to: shess@one.net's message of 27 Jan 97 09:50:44 to: shess@one.net X-Newsreader: (ding) Gnus v0.99.18 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11226 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3872 comp.sys.next.programmer:22352 In article shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: I know this will get me in trouble, but ... you shouldn't be switching on the class/type of an object in any case. I could not agree more. That's the reason you use message dispatch (so the runtime does the switch for you). As an example of how this actually needs cleaner and faster code, the TOM (http://tom.ics.ele.tue.nl:8080) string classes can serve very well. Basically, there is a more-or-less abstract String class, with CharString and ByteString subclasses (for storing Unicode strings and byte-encoded versions of them, respectively), each with UniqueCharString and UniqueByteString subclasses. Now all these classes know how to compare each other, by implementing the equal method appropriately. For instance, the unique strings will simply invoke `[other equalUniqueString self]', where the receiving string, if a unique string, can simply do a `return self == other'; to normal (non-unique) strings being equal to a unique string is like being equal to a normal string. The ByteString will send `[other equalByteString self]' to test for equality. The ByteString implementation of this method can be really fast, using a simple memcmp (provided that the encodings are the same of course). The CharString implementation of `equalByteString' will do conversion between the canonical unicode and the byte encoding, etc. Why this is faster? Easy. It needs one or two extra method invocations, depending on what you compare with what, whereas the class switching needs a lot more: if ([other isKindOf: [ByteString class]]) ... In Objective-C, this is two method invocations, a class lookup (which means finding a string in a hashtable) and a class hierarchy test, which can be expensive. And after this excercise all you know is that it is a ByteString or not. And if it isn't, you have to do another expensive test. There are other advantages of not using isKindOf or conformsTo, like code locality, maintainability, and extensibility since each decision is in a seperate method, which is easily implemented by another class or overridden in a category... --Tiggr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.enteract.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: New User/Developer Date: 1 Feb 1997 17:28:20 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 20 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5cvufk$92p@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <5cuq61$3nn@news.digifix.com> <5cuvm9$lb4@news.istar.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca7-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Feb 01 11:28:20 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) jsamson@istar.ca (Jean-Paul C. Samson) wrote: > >>I dug right into the Developer tutorial and have come across an > >>anomaly that is probably very easy to remedy and I look for your > >>advise. In the Currency Exchange tutorial on page 27 they direct me > >>to drag the NSReturnSign icon from the nib file window onto the > >>Convert button, but there is no NSReturnSign icon in the nib file! > >>What did I do wrong, or better yet, how can I get that icon to show > >>up? > > They took out the return sign icon. Instead, the default button now > has a thick black bezel, like Windows. So to configure a default button in a nib, instead of dragging a NSReturnSign icon to the button, set the button's Key property to "\r" which is a common Unix representation of the carriage return character. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!news.cerf.net!louie.disney.com!news From: Joseph Panico Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 13:25:59 -0500 Organization: Disney Online Lines: 33 Message-ID: <32F38AB7.27ED@online.disney.com> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> <5crrde$19s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: jpanico@online.disney.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.18.62.119 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Art Isbell wrote: > > jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn) wrote: > > > Please tell me that we're not the only ones experiencing problems with > Most of your listed bugs have been fixed in 4.1/Mach, but 4.1/NT isn't as 4.1 Mach PB has many, many problems. - It's very easy to crash. Go to classes in the project file browser, double click on a .m, then double click on a .h-- splat! - I cannot find a place to set the tab-stops and the number of spaces per tab - The integrated editor does not reflect changes made to a file outside of PB. So it is impossible to use most of the features of PB with an outside editor. - Find does not search into all of the Frameworks included in a project. - It's too integrated-- The 3.3 PB had a better, more open design. It feels as though NeXT is moving backwards, not forwards. ...I could rant on... > -- > Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com > Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 > CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 > managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 -- Joe Panico Disney Online jpanico@online.disney.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!132.175.109.6!news.sandia.gov!tesuque!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: IB wierdess: saving .nib file alters it=>DPS errors Date: 1 Feb 1997 03:31:18 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5cude6$1cn@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.9 Beta(i) I've been having problems with Interface Builder in NEXTSTEP 3.3/Intel. The symptom is that when I launch my application, the app icon at the bottom of the screen stays whited out, and I get these console errors: Jan 31 17:17:58 pueo GA_VIEW[7381]: DPS client library error: PostScript program error, DPSContext f47a0 Jan 31 17:17:58 pueo GA_VIEW[7381]: %%[ Error: typecheck; OffendingCommand: ustroke ]%% Jan 31 17:17:58 pueo GA_VIEW[7381]: DPS client library error: Invalid tag in returned object, DPSContext f47a0, data 1009636 Jan 31 17:17:58 pueo GA_VIEW[7381]: DPS client library error: Invalid tag in returned object, DPSContext f47a0, data 1009652 Now, the strange thing is, all I have to do to get these errors is to open the nib file, save it without any changes, and recompile the program. I discovered that opening and saving the .nib file DOES change it! I get this diff in the data.classes file: 1c1 < BarView = {SUPERCLASS = View; }; --- > SortView = {ACTIONS = {"sortPlot:" = "sortPlot:"; }; OUTLETS = {}; SUPERCLASS = View; }; 4c4 < SortView = {ACTIONS = {"sortPlot:" = "sortPlot:"; }; OUTLETS = {}; SUPERCLASS = View; }; --- > BarView = {SUPERCLASS = View; }; For some reason, it reverses the order of these lines. There are also large differences in the data.nib files. And these differences cause the white icon and console errors. So what on earth is going on? Why should openning and saving a .nib file alter it, and cause DPS errors upon recompilation? Any tips greatly appreciated. -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 31 Jan 97 19:38:52 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 26 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: port-15-29.access.one.net In-reply-to: hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM's message of Thu, 30 Jan 1997 22:42:16 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22356 comp.lang.objective-c:5202 In article , hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM (Holger Hoffstaette) writes: I've (sort of) solved the overhead of unnecessary method dispatch by extending e.g. any collection classes with more 'comfortable' methods that tend to do a lot of stuff at once, and do not use repeated method dispatch, but rather access their methods' implementation by using a straight C function call. This is similar to what I've done with a pretty large project that did a _lot_ of messaging. It works very well for those cases where you're tending to do something small repeatedly (for instance, doing the same simple operation to an entire set of objects in a collection. You even get bonus points if the operation is literally the same due to all of the objects being the same!). On the other hand, this is exactly the type of thing I'd really like the compiler to do for me. The route described above does usually require you to make a bunch of small changes all over the place. I'd like to make one change (putting the method in the @interface file) in one place, and then just rebuild ... Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:08:23 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 137 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:185016 comp.sys.mac.system:196334 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56022 comp.sys.next.programmer:22357 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 31-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Travis Butler@tfs.net >> Well, if you want to scatter your applications around even though it >> makes your computer less functional and harder for other people to use, >> you can. I don't see why anyone would want to make their computer >> harder to use, but then, that's just my preference for thinking >> rationally showing through.... > > Funny, I put all my graphics applications in a Graphics folder, all my > utilities in a Utilities folder, all my internet applications in an > Internet folder, a subfolder to the Communications folder where I put all > my communications applications... I guess I just am not thinking > rationally. That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Under NEXTSTEP, you'd put that folder structure under /LocalApps and everything would work fine. Or you could put it whereever you liked and make links into /LocalApps. Or, assuming you can change the default searchpath for apps under Rhapsody, you could tell the WorkSpace to look whereever your tree is. > I know other users who have a folder for each of their applications, and > put all the documents from that application in a subfolder within that > folder. Who am I to argue if it works for them? They can if they want to under NEXTSTEP, too...depending on what permissions the system has been set up with. (Obviously, on a single-user machine, you can configure the permissions however you like-- but a multi-user machine normally has controls for who can do what where.) > Bottom line: Different strokes for different folks, and there is *no* One > True Way to Organize. Period. Surely. But operating systems generally have useful conventions to guide the way you organize things, and this can be very useful. [ ... ] >>No, it's not, although I am unsurprised to discover that a Mac advocate >>has not had exposure to large computer networks administered by an >>organization. For example, CMU has hundreds of Macs in the clusters >>with a very consistent filesystem layout. >> >>Most Mac users here like the idea, so they generally arrange their >>computers in similar ways to the cluster machines-- and there are well >>over 1000 Macs on campus here. > > Great. You're managing an organizational network in a lab situation, and > you have other users arranging their machines so that there's less > confusion for them when they use one of the lab machines. That's fine for > them, but it doesn't say anything about all the individual Macs in use out > there, not to mention all the network situations where it's one individual > using the same Mac all day every day. Is it not more efficient for that > user to arrange his system the way that's fastest and easiest for him to > work with? Probably not, no-- although it's a hypothesis that could be tested if you want to spend the effort setting up experiments. I happen to think that having good filesystem conventions makes machines easier to use for all users, but that's just my opinion, not a fact. I do know that I've never seen a NEXTSTEP user complain about the filesystem conventions under NS-- it's not as if there are legions of people who are dissatisfied by having their apps under /LocalApps and their fonts under /LocalLibrary/Fonts. > Lab situations are IMHO an isolated situation that have, and *should* have, > little influence on the way other people run their systems. And corperate users in the business world are also an isolated situation? And networked users are yet another isolated situation? So much for that theory.... [ ... ] >> Correct. A multiuser computer system has conventions for where you >> should place common files (like applications, fonts, and other such >> resources) which are supposedly intended for use by all users. > > This is probably where most of the difference is coming from. I don't > *want* a multiuser computer system, with all of the security kaka that > involves. We're talking about *personal computers* here, and there's a > reason for the word "personal" in the label -- these are computers designed > for use by one person. As I said, I believe lab systems and servers are the > exceptions, not the rule that you should design a personal computer OS > around. Your opinion is noted. Of course, Apple already tried that route with the MacOC, and they finally realized that multiuser machines with security have major advantages in terms of stability, immunity to virus infection, protection that keeps one user from damaging another user's files or processes or the operating system itself, protection from network attacks like someone cracking your machine, etc. Fortunately, NEXTSTEP is a multiuser OS with security and so forth, which also is very easy for people to use as their personal computer. That's why Apple bought NeXT in order to gain their technologies, once Apple realized that Copland was a failure. > The explosion of the computer market since the late 70's has been driven by > personal computers -- not servers, not workstations, not multi-user > systems. I think there's a reason for that. I want a system that I can > control myself, set up any way I please to fit *my* habits and working > patterns, without having to jump through security and permission hoops > designed for multiuser setups my computer will never be used in. To bring > back a metaphor from the '80s -- I oppose the high priests of the MIS > department, and support individual user empowerment. Great-- stick with MacOS 7 instead of Rhapsody, then. That's your choice. > To repeat the quote: > >>> Oh, it's terribly rational for the computer to dictate where the user >>> places files, rather than the other way around. >> >> Correct. > > This is the antithesis of the personal computer movement, and it's the > exact opposite of everything the Mac has stood for. I don't know if you > paid much attention to the early Mac market, or Apple's early advertising Gee-- I still own an Apple ][+ with 48K on the motherboard and a 16K language card from 1979, and I remember Apple's early advertising before the Mac even existed. I think NEXTSTEP and NeXT's black hardware, with multiuser and security, was generally the most user-friendly personal computer system ever invented. [ ... ] -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 16:49:18 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bumdc$evr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5c1358$k5v$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:196340 comp.sys.next.programmer:22358 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56034 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:185030 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 30-Jan-97 Re: MacWorld Exclusive: App.. by Chris Johnson@sover.net. [ ... ] > The difference is that you can't actually treat MacOS toolbox calls or > code resources as a user program. Under Unices you actually can, though > they are not much more friendly than toolbox calls- but in some ways, for > some uses, they are more friendly than toolbox calls, because their limits > are sharply defined and they deal with a very very simple data type. One > does not expect DisposPixMap to throw up a confirmation dialog, why should > rm? It's just a question of burying rm so Grandma never sees it, and if > anybody can do this Apple can. Exactly. NeXT already did a good job of hiding Unix, but Apple undoubtedly will go even further along those lines, which is great for normal users. Furthermore, Rhapsody will appeal to people who want or need to look at the low-level tools that make the OS go, which overcomes one of the primary limitations of the MacOS.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 2 Feb 1997 01:58:44 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 49 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5d0sck$q9g@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> <5crrde$19s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <32F38AB7.27ED@online.disney.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca18-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Feb 01 5:58:44 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Joseph Panico wrote: > 4.1 Mach PB has many, many problems. > - It's very easy to crash. Go to classes in the project file browser, > double > click on a .m, then double click on a .h-- splat! I guess the way one works determines the PB stability experienced. I rarely see PB crash and I spend all day every day using 4.1 PB on Mach and NT. But I never do the above. > - I cannot find a place to set the tab-stops and the number of spaces > per tab I have PB's preferences set to indent when tab is pressed, so I don't insert tabs in my source. But this enhancement would be nice for those who do. > - The integrated editor does not reflect changes made to a file outside > of PB. So it is impossible to use most of the features of PB with an > outside editor. I frequently use emacs to make external changes to source files. By merely entering Command-u (Revert to Saved) with the externally-edited file displayed in PB, the external changes will be displayed in PB. If you don't revert to saved, any attempt to modify the file in PB will open an Alert panel that provides an opportunity to reload the changed file, overwrite the changes, or cancel the modification. This seems like pretty good behavior. > - Find does not search into all of the Frameworks included in a project. That might be nice, but I'd want that to be optional behavior. As it stands, just having the framework projects open in PB in addition to the main project will allow the search string to be shared among all projects. So simultaneous searches of all desired projects can be run. This is pretty powerful. > - It's too integrated-- The 3.3 PB had a better, more open design. > It feels as though NeXT is moving backwards, not forwards. Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I like the tighter integration, but several important features are still missing. The former gdb browse panel is missing. This was a very nice feature. Too many gdb commands must be manually entered in the current PB. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 CaseServ: OPENSTEP Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail From: Tom Reminga Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.soft-sys.nextstep Subject: I Need some NeXT Hardware Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 22:24:17 -0600 Organization: Q-Net Internet Services Lines: 31 Message-ID: <32F416F1.6576@q-net.pair.com> Reply-To: webmaster@q-net.pair.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 156.46.174.100 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Tom Reminga (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) X-Priority: Normal Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.marketplace:16258 comp.sys.next.programmer:22360 comp.sys.next.software:27822 comp.soft-sys.nextstep:2956 Please help, I am in desperate need of hardware and software for my NeXT Station. Bellow is the list of items I need... 1 Monoter Cord- Monocrome- I am unsure since I can not even turn on the computer 2 Power Cords- One for Printer and One for computer itself 1 Printer Cords- To connect the printer to the computer 1 CD-Rom Drive- That can be connected to the SCSI port 1 Hard Drive (500 or so megs)- That can be connected to the SCSI port 1 Latest version of the operating system- Developer and user version for a Motorola processer 1 Set of Software- Browser, E-Mail Client, Word Processer, Spread Sheet, any other useful software. 1 A later version of their web development suiet for Motorola I have a Motorola NeXT Station with a Mega Pixel monoter. I also have a NeXT printer(laser). I am unsure of the RAM or Hard Disk space since I am unable to turn the computer on. Also if anyone could direct me to a few good books on NeXT. Thanks Tom Reminga E-Mail me at: mailto: webmaster@q-net.pair.com Q-Net Internet Services http://www.q-net.pair.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!nntp.farm.idt.net!news From: buckley4@mail.idt.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: RTF colors? Date: 2 Feb 1997 01:50:51 GMT Organization: IDT Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5d0rtr$l0m@nnrp2.farm.idt.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-68.ts-1.nyc.idt.net X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00058 Edit.app (and it's derivatives like Mail.app) will display RTF with a background color if specified. Unfortunately, selected contents are not highlighted in the presence of a background color (making cut & paste a guessing game) I found some specs for RTF 1.3 but no mention of a highlight color tag. OmniWeb does manage to allow visible selection of their generated RTF (converted from sgml for rendering). Interesting, Edit's "Save Selection" service drops all background color info from an HTML doc, but TickleServices "Save RTF" manages at least the greyscale alternative. Is it possible to have Edit/Mail behave like OmniWeb and display selected text in a different color? -- _________________________________________ Paul Buckley 515 W 59th St., Apt. 22K New York, NY 10019 E-mail: buckley4@mail.idt.net Tel/Fax: 212-333-3382 _________________________________________ Nuclear weapons are inherently dangerous, highly expensive, militarily inefficient, and morally indefensible General Lee Butler, who would not be quoted in The Times #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsout1.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.serv.net!news.omnigroup.com!news From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 2 Feb 1997 08:26:32 GMT Organization: Omni Development, Inc. Lines: 59 Message-ID: <5d1j3o$blq@gaea.titan.org> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> <5crrde$19s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <32F38AB7.27ED@online.disney.com> <5d0sck$q9g@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: bubastis.omnigroup.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > Joseph Panico wrote: > > > 4.1 Mach PB has many, many problems. > > - It's very easy to crash. Go to classes in the project file browser, > > double > > click on a .m, then double click on a .h-- splat! > > I guess the way one works determines the PB stability experienced. I > rarely see PB crash and I spend all day every day using 4.1 PB on Mach and > NT. But I never do the above. I'm unable to duplicate this problem. > > > - I cannot find a place to set the tab-stops and the number of spaces > > per tab > > I have PB's preferences set to indent when tab is pressed, so I don't > insert tabs in my source. But this enhancement would be nice for those who > do. Check the PB release notes for the tabStopChars default; it allows what is being asked for here. > > - Find does not search into all of the Frameworks included in a project. > > That might be nice, but I'd want that to be optional behavior. As it > stands, just having the framework projects open in PB in addition to the main > project will allow the search string to be shared among all projects. So > simultaneous searches of all desired projects can be run. This is pretty > powerful. Actually (assuming you have indexing turned on), it does search all included frameworks, though it's occasionally buggy about this. I would certainly like a preference for "search these frameworks even if I don't have them included." This would let me always search Foundation, AppKit and the EOF frameworks whether I've included them in the project or not. > > - It's too integrated-- The 3.3 PB had a better, more open design. > > It feels as though NeXT is moving backwards, not forwards. > > Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I like the tighter > integration, but several important features are still missing. The former > gdb browse panel is missing. This was a very nice feature. Too many gdb > commands must be manually entered in the current PB. I too much prefer the new PB, though it does still have room for improvement. -- andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com - NeXTmail & MIME ok #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: oure@cmfadljf.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: CD-R Media for Sale Date: 2 Feb 1997 13:19:13 GMT Organization: Copy.Cat Shop. Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5d248h$jct@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.200.39 We have the following CD-R media for sale. Brand: Pioneer Type: Printable Media (Surface is blank for printing or labels) Type: Gold on Green Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 6.99 Minimum Order: 10 Brand: Maxell Type: Gold on Gold Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 6.55 Minimum Order: 10 Brand: TDK Type: Gold on Green Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 6.55 Minimum Order: 10 Brand: Hewlett Packard Type Gold on Gold Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 7.15 Minimum Order: 10 Lifetime Warranty The Copy Cat Shop has all your CD duplication, replication, recorders, software, and media needs. If you have any questions or comments feel free to call. Cordially, The Copy Cat Shop 213-650-1680 213-650-9110 Fax #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!xfer.kren.nm.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!wilbur.ohww.norman.ok.us!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us (Robert Braver) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5d248h$jct@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> Date: 2 Feb 1997 13:24:10 GMT Control: cancel <5d248h$jct@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Sender: oure@cmfadljf.com X-Cancelled-By: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us X-No-Archive: Yes Approved: y Lines: 2 Spam cancelled. Autocancel spam type: CDRMEDIA Original Subject: CD-R Media for Sale #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!prim.demon.co.uk!dave From: Dave Griffiths Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 15:02:30 GMT Organization: Primitive Software Ltd. Message-ID: <1997Feb2.150230.1427@prim.demon.co.uk> References: <5c0ivv$ <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com> <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> X-Mail2News-User: news@prim.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-7.mail.demon.net!relay-6.mail.demon.net!prim.demon.co.uk Lines: 17 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11228 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3881 comp.sys.next.programmer:22364 In article <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> nurban@vt.edu writes: >In article <32E64EF7.3D6A@nowhere.com>, none wrote: > >> OK. Can you write me a short bit of code that would sort an array of any >> type in Objective-C? > >Well, that's a built-in method of NSArray.. their documentation example >is (modified for a mutable array): > >NSMutableArray *sortedArray = [anArray sortUsingSelector:@selector(compare:)]; That's cheating. :) That only works if you've paid $5000 for the library routines to help you. My machine has "classic" Obj-C but your code snippet would produce a link failure. Dave #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.252.116.190!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!prim.demon.co.uk!dave From: Dave Griffiths Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 14:50:38 GMT Organization: Primitive Software Ltd. Message-ID: <1997Feb2.145038.1341@prim.demon.co.uk> References: <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> <5c8j8b$10sg@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5c93h6$3ur@darla.visi.com> X-Mail2News-User: news@prim.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-7.mail.demon.net!relay-6.mail.demon.net!prim.demon.co.uk Lines: 26 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11229 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3882 comp.sys.next.programmer:22365 In article <5c93h6$3ur@darla.visi.com> dwy@ace.net (David Young) writes: > >There's also the issue of method syntax (and some tradition) making it >irrelevant. Consider: > >- drawImage:anImage withFloatingPointScaleFactor:(float)f; >- drawImage:anImage withScalingObject:o; > >vs. > >drawImage (f); >drawImage (o); > >I tend to prefer the former, as it leads to more self-documenting >code, and less of that "hmm, what paramters does this take?" kind >of thing. You must like typing. One of the worst things about OpenStep is all those horrible long method names. And whereas "drawImage" is easy to remember, how many times have you forgotten one of those long method names and typed (say) "withScaleFactor" instead of "withFloatingPointScaleFactor"? But don't tell me - there's a tool to help you. :) Dave #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: cnyap@next (Chih Nam Yap) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to free subviews ? Date: 2 Feb 1997 17:51:27 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5d2k6v$6a@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: next.dcs.shef.ac.uk Hi there, Can anyone tell me what is the correct way to free a hierarchy of subviews ? I have looked at view.rtf, the free method says free - free Releases the storage for the View and all its subviews. This method also invalidates the cursor rectangles for the View's window, frees the View's graphics state object (if any), and removes the View from the view hierarchy; the View will no longer be registered as a subview of any other View. I tried to free a hierarchy of subviews by using the following way [subviews free]; But my program always terminated. Do I need to perform some preparation works such as issue the "removeFromSuperview" method to each subviews before I can actually free them ? Your help is very much appreciated. Thank you. cheers, c.yap #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 2 Feb 1997 18:29:32 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5d2mec$431@darla.visi.com> References: <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> <5c8j8b$10sg@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5c93h6$3ur@darla.visi.com> <1997Feb2.145038.1341@prim.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11230 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3884 comp.sys.next.programmer:22367 Dave Griffiths (dave@prim.demon.co.uk) wrote: : You must like typing. One of the worst things about OpenStep is all those : horrible long method names. And whereas "drawImage" is easy to remember, : how many times have you forgotten one of those long method names and typed : (say) "withScaleFactor" instead of "withFloatingPointScaleFactor"? Five seconds of typing is better than a minute of looking stuff up. "drawImage" may be easy to remeber, but what parameters it takes sometimes is not. Draw image that's a bitmap? That's a JPEG? That's a sequence of drawing commands? With an integer scale factor? Even the class libraries that make the best use of method overloading don't accept everything as a parameter, and you wind up looking at the .h (or .java) file anyway to see what you can send it. : But don't tell me - there's a tool to help you. :) Well, of course ;) -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!129.63.1.1!ulowell.uml.edu!umassd.edu!umass.edu!192.33.12.30!jklein From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: drawing bitmap to screen quickly Date: 2 Feb 97 02:40:26 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 27 Message-ID: <32f3fe9a.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hampshire.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Hey there... I'm trying to get some reasonably fast animation going on a 68040 turbo color -- needless to say this will be a bit of work. The only way I know to get bitmaps to the screen is using the NXBitmapImageRep class, so I do something like the following: bitmap = [[NXBitmapImageRep alloc] initData: pixels ]; while(1) { (rearrange byte values in pixels[]) [bitmap draw]; [myWindow flushWindow]; } This setup however, only gives me about 3 frames per second in a 200 x 200 view. Along with my own code to rearrange the bytes in pixels[], I get 2 frames per second. This is simply not enough. 10 fps would be okay, but of course, the more the better. Can anybody tell me of a faster method of drawing a bitmap to the screen? -- -jon klein jklein@freon.artificial.com Caper will do it for me. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!129.63.1.1!ulowell.uml.edu!umassd.edu!umass.edu!192.33.12.30!jklein From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: drawing bitmap to screen quickly Date: 2 Feb 97 04:43:13 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32f41b61.0@192.33.12.30> References: <32f3fe9a.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hampshire.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] jon klein (jklein@freon.artificial.com) wrote: : bitmap = [[NXBitmapImageRep alloc] initData: pixels ]; : This setup however, only gives me about 3 frames per second in a : 200 x 200 view. Along with my own code to rearrange the bytes in : pixels[], I get 2 frames per second. This is simply not enough. : 10 fps would be okay, but of course, the more the better. Sorry to follow up to my own post, but the first example was with planer data. I get about 12 fps with meshed. Why is this, and are there any more hints to get faster animation? -- -jon klein jklein@freon.artificial.com Caper will do it for me. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news1.slip.net!not-for-mail From: Dru Nelson Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Help... [CD ROM on next]... Date: 3 Feb 1997 00:26:13 GMT Organization: Slip.Net Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5d3bb5$rsq$1@news1.slip.net> References: <5crhap$a58$3@news.cc.umr.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-3-barrnet.slip.net X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970124] Hi, Please post to the proper newsgroup. Thanks. Sanjeev Agarwal wrote: > I had installed a CD ROM driver (6x) on Pentium 133 running NS 3.3. > Of late I cannot seem to access the CD ROM driver (for music CDs > or otherwise). I was wondering what could have gone wrong. Could > it have been some bug in CD Player that comes with the system. > What do I need to do to correct this. > Thank you .. > Sanjeev #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.wco.com!not-for-mail From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MacWorld Exculsive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 2 Feb 1997 17:43:04 -0800 Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16 Lines: 26 Sender: mpaque@mpaque Distribution: world Message-ID: <5d3fr8$bp@mpaque.mpaque> References: <32EE9DD1.4A9B@netscape.com> Reply-To: mpaque@wco.com NNTP-Posting-Host: volans119.wco.com In article <32EE9DD1.4A9B@netscape.com> David Matiskella writes: > I would > also bet that you will not by default get a login prompt when you boot > up Raphsody since a lot of Apples customers don't need/want it. Done. NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP/Mach are set up to do this by default (No login window by default). > Why don't we debate the really important questions like "How many > buttons is the mouse going to have?" One. (Two on NeXT hardware, but they do the same thing by default.) > or "How many CLI programs will > barf upon seeing mac file names with / and space in them?" None, if they're properly written and invoked. NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP/Mach permit spaces in names. The filesystem code for foriegn filesystems performs an idempotent mapping of the path partitioning character, so ':' versus '/' (Mac vs. Unix) isn't a problem in real life. -- I don't speak for my employer, whoevere it is, and they don't speak for me. mpaque@next.com Official business only NeXT Mail OK mpaque@wco.com Non-business or personal mail NeXT mail OK #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!cs1.FTA-Berlin.de!gmdtub!stern.fokus.gmd.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: bbum@friday.com (Bill Bumgarner) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Concerning Function Overloading in Obj-C.(Re: Multiple Inheritance) Message-ID: <32EB969C.72DA@friday.com> Date: 26 Jan 97 17:38:36 GMT References: <5c7vug$4s4@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5ccaka$n27@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: bbum@friday.com Organization: Demiurge Development Group Lines: 62 NNTP-Posting-Host: nrwl02-sh2-port86.snet.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Bumgarner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) X-Priority: Normal Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11231 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3889 comp.sys.next.programmer:22372 But [within objective-c] there are a number of ways to do control flow based on object type or based on what functionality the object supports. some examples: Assuming you have a method like: - eatObject: anObject { ... CODE HERE ... } The ... CODE HERE ... part could contain flow control like: * switch on membership within a specific class: if ([anObject isMemberOfClass: [NSArray class]]) { ... it's an NSArray ... } else if ... * switch on membership within a specific class or subclass of said class: if ([anObject isKindOfClass: NSClassFromString(@"NSView")]) { ... it's a view of some kind ... } * switch on the fact that it implements a specific method: if ([anObject respondsToSelector: @selector(performCalculation:with:)]){ ... it implements -performCalculation:with: ... } * switch on the fact that it implements some protocol (a protocol is a collection of methods. Conformance to a protocol means that an object implements all of the methods in the protocol. IN distributed objects, not only can a proxy (a representation of an object within a remote runtime) conform to a protocol, it can be limited to ONLY responding to methods from a protocol)): if ([anObject conformsToProtocol: @protocol(ProcessRFC822MessagesP)]) { ... it implements the RFC822 processing protocol ... } And remember, since it is objective-c, all of the above flexibility is available for any class in the runtime-- be it one linked into the system libraries, one that was dynamically loaded at runtime, or one that created on-the-fly by the program... b.bum Nathan M. Urban wrote: > > In article , jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) wrote: > > > Can't we just pass the parameter as an id object and then do a switch based > > on the object type? > > No, the object type isn't an ordinal. You can't switch on it, just like > you can't switch on strings. > -- > Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!enews.sgi.com!EU.net!sun4nl!icgned!vuur!hans From: hans@vuur (Hans Mulder) Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: vuur Message-ID: Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: IC Group X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] References: <5b9d73$p3u@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn3bm$22l@duke.squonk.net> <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:09:05 GMT Lines: 17 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22373 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56154 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:185453 comp.sys.mac.system:196576 In <5bonbb$6r4@news.internetmci.com> Rajnish Dogra (rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com) wrote: >maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >> I think Apple's only real interest in the project is to get a working OS >>that is clean and doesn't have warts. Seeing as OpenStep runs over NT, >>it's demonstratable that you can rip out ALL the Unix utils and end up >>with a working system. >No... >As far I know NeXT ships (with OPENSTEP for NT) some if not all the unix >utilities and even has Terminal.app. No. With OPENSTEP for NT, NeXT ships some Unix utilities, not all of them. Terminal.app is not part of the package. You can run a slightly souped-up Bourne shell in a command.com window; csh and zsh are not included. -- HansM #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!vas.bull.de!usenet From: Petr Novak Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:30:22 +0100 Organization: Microcomp GmbH , Cologne, Germany Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32F5B02E.3EB1@microcomp.de> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> <32F1BD3B.25CB@microcomp.de> <5cubuf$ibm@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: novak@microcomp.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.120.248.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) > You are making an assumption that Rhapsody == OS 4.1 which I'm certain > will be false. NeXT made huge numbers of changes in moving from NS to OS. > They did it essentially in one step (OS existed in a minor way in NS 3.3). > The rate of change from 4.0 to 4.1 suggests that 4.2 will be quite good. > Rhapsody will follow even later so should benefit even more. > -- > Art Isbell No, I don't make assumption that Rhapsody will be bad. But I don't like dream's about nice future with Rhapsody when NOW you must develop with Openstep. Rhapsody will be completely new chapter - new and bigger project resources but also new technological problems. It is dificult to say when STABLE and USABLE Rhapsody will be available. Sorry , I dont want start new discussion about Rhapsody. I would like discuss in this newsgroup concrete problems with Openstep or Nextstep programming. Petr Novak #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.york.ac.uk!rog From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Broken Pipe? Date: 3 Feb 1997 11:25:10 GMT Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5d4hum$np@netty.york.ac.uk> References: <5co1u2$kpn$1@inet-prime.comshare.com> Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.4) On 29 Jan 1997 17:38:10 GMT, alanf@izzy.net wrote: > In the 3.2 developer environment, I'm working on an app that redirects the > stdin and stdout from a shell process to pipes, that in turn are connected to > text objects. I've used a similar program in the Garfinkel/Mahoney book as > reference. > The shell's stdout is connected to fromProcess[1], the end of the pipe > fromProcess[0] is being watched by DPSWatchFD (3.2, remember?). DPSWatchFD > calls a printer function that messages the text object. This appears to work > fine... the arguments I pass the shell via execv are echoed back, and appear > in the text object. > > The other text object delegates to a method that writes to the pipe > toProcess[1]... the other end of the pipe should be connected to the stdin of > the shell: there are all sorts of potential problems with this approach; the processes could be deadlocking, something might be writing down a pipe to a dead process (broken pipe), DPSWatchFD might not be called when you expect it to be... without a more complete sample of your code, there's very little way of finding out which is the actual problem, however. cheers, rog. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.238.120.21!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 06:41:03 -0600 From: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com Subject: Library Headers Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <854973058.17599@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Mon Feb 03 12:31:06 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 198.141.173.250 (www.lhr-sys.dhl.com) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.01 (Win16; I) X-Authenticated-Sender: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com Lines: 12 I would like to get hold of the header files for programming OpenStep. More specifically does anybody have a list of the Display Postscript routines and data types? Is there a place at NeXT where I can find this stuff? Thanks (Please email me a copy of your reply) Andre-John -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!vas.bull.de!usenet From: Petr Novak Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Master-Detail-Relationship problems Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:40:33 +0100 Organization: Microcomp GmbH , Cologne, Germany Lines: 15 Message-ID: <32F5B291.196E@microcomp.de> References: <5cva49$oao@news.Dortmund.Germany.EU.net> Reply-To: novak@microcomp.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.120.248.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (WinNT; I) Thomas Richter wrote: > > Hi all, > i am using NEXTSTEP 3.3 and Developer and EOF 1.1 with installed > Patches on Intel Hardware and Sybase Databases. With EOF 1.1 I cannot > use Master-Detail-Relationships (no fetchs of detail records when > selecting a record in the master table). Master-Peer-Configurations > work fine. I had the same problem on 4.0 and EOF 1.1. EOF automatically set some false delegate, which caused this problem. I cannot exact remember, but it was something like EOAssociation was set to delegate of TableView. Petr Novak #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:19:45 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 26 Distribution: comp Message-ID: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5214 comp.sys.next.programmer:22378 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 30-Jan-97 "static inline" methods wou.. by Scott Hess@one.net > Something I'd like to see in Objective-C would be static inline > methods. Say you have something like the Storage object, and you have > a method like: What you are asking for, "static inline functions", means that the compiler has to make all decisions at compile time, and that you therefore cannot rely on any dynamic properties of the runtime, like dynamic method invocation, or subclassing, etc-- but that's what you want, to avoid the overhead of objC_msgSend. This is what Java does when it sees the "final" keyword. Given that this is the case, why not simply use C macros to inline -elementAt: directly and let the compiler optimize from there? In fact, this allows you to also provide a real method implementation which could be used dynamicly by subclasses if needed, but you could use the macro version whenever you know that it's okay.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 11:42:02 -0500 Organization: SoftArc Inc. Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22379 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:185523 comp.sys.mac.system:196619 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56183 In article <5ctrsf$j2@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote: > For Copland, Apple was going to include the ability to have separate > preferences for multiple users and perhaps protected filespace, so I'm > sure they'll go at least that far. Copeland's method for this was to simply return different fid's for the Preferences folder. As long as no one hard wired the folder locations (and that should not be an issue) it would have worked great. > of OpenStep, then one would expect there to be Unix style file permissions > (though not visible to the unexperienced eye) and root login for system > functions. The problem I have with this is that Unix file permissions, like Mac ones, are terribly behind the times. I'd prefer a ACL based system on ALL objects, not just file system ones, and the disappearance of the current user/group/world permissions. I'd also like to see true central authority for this, Kerberos being the obvious one, perhaps even NT's Domains could be an option. This would make the new OS slip into a LOT more corporate networks. Say what you will about it's administration, but NT's network concepts do help the average admin quite a bit. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!192.33.12.30!jklein From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cancel <32f41b61.0@192.33.12.30> Control: cancel <32f41b61.0@192.33.12.30> Date: 2 Feb 97 13:34:15 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 1 Message-ID: <32f497d7.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hampshire.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Article cancelled from within tin [v1.2 PL2] #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.tufts.edu!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!umass.edu!192.33.12.30!jklein From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cancel <32f3fe9a.0@192.33.12.30> Control: cancel <32f3fe9a.0@192.33.12.30> Date: 2 Feb 97 13:34:19 GMT Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst Lines: 1 Message-ID: <32f497db.0@192.33.12.30> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.hampshire.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Article cancelled from within tin [v1.2 PL2] #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.york.ac.uk!rog From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: 3 Feb 1997 15:17:49 GMT Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5d4vit$np@netty.york.ac.uk> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.4) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22380 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:185572 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56201 On Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:47:18 -0500, Maury Markowitz wrote: > The OS that places more limitations on the user in terms of document and > file placement is automatically a less flexible OS for that user by > definition. your logic doesn't necessarily hold true here, i'm afraid. an OS that places more limitations on the user in terms of document and file placement might easily be a more flexible OS in general terms. consider the road system, for instance. drivers are restricted from driving in the wrong side of the road. does this make the road system a less flexible system in general ? no, because this very restriction allows drivers to assume that people going in the opposite direction will not be heading for a head-on collision, thus making the system *more* flexible in general, as drivers can concentrate on the task of driving from A to B, without worrying about dodging oncoming traffic. in the same way, some restrictions on the user can be useful and warranted if they aid users in accomplishing their tasks unencumbered by unexpected contingencies. this isn't to say that the unix file system is perfect by any means. there is no real reason why *all* the system related files can't be moved into (say) /system and subdirectories thereof, leaving the rest of the filesystem open to user havoc. arguments of "unix standardness" are spurious, because any portable unix program will not make assumptions about pathnames, as they are not a truly standard part of unix. for instance, /usr once contained only user accounts. /usr/etc (where the net daemons reside) and /usr/bin are relics of decades old hacks by Sun et al, and could easily be abolished in a new operating system from Apple, with only very minor changes to unix system programs. cheers, rog. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: drawing bitmap to screen quickly Date: 3 Feb 1997 19:09:15 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5d5d4r$t2l@news.xmission.com> References: <32f3fe9a.0@192.33.12.30> <32f41b61.0@192.33.12.30> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein) wrote: > jon klein (jklein@freon.artificial.com) wrote: > > : bitmap = [[NXBitmapImageRep alloc] initData: pixels ]; > > : This setup however, only gives me about 3 frames per second in a > : 200 x 200 view. Along with my own code to rearrange the bytes in > : pixels[], I get 2 frames per second. This is simply not enough. > : 10 fps would be okay, but of course, the more the better. > > Sorry to follow up to my own post, but the first example was with planer > data. I get about 12 fps with meshed. Why is this, and are there any more > hints to get faster animation? Because the screen RAM on a Color slab is meshed. If you start with planar data, the DPS interpreter has to convert it to meshed before copying it to the screen. You want to render such that DPS will have to do as little work as possible to get the data to the screen. For the best speed, read the DPS release notes and performance notes that come with the NEXTSTEP documentation. What you want to do is to *exactly* match the buffer's layout to the screen RAM's layout (meshed vs. planar, bits per pixel, etc.) and then, on slabs, if your buffer is the right *width* (there's a complex formula in one of the performance notes) you'll get an extra boost. This is all very hardware dependent, but it is the same thing you'd have to do with Interceptor. (So you may want to make different drawing routines to deal with various buffer geometries to match different hardware platforms, for example.) In fact, because of the width thing (DPS notices an "optimal" width and does a special machine instruction for a wider copy when it sees it) it is harder to beat DPS when using Interceptor on color slabs without dropping into asm code yourself... I'd elaborate more on details, but I'm short on time right now-- at least the above should point you in the right direction. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!sed.psrw.com!news.apk.net!jchan From: jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Accessing Serial Ports under OpenStep Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:01:18 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Lines: 5 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-22.apk.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Is it possible to access serial ports under OpenStep? I've got OpenStep/NT and I can't seem to find anything that allows me to talk to a serial port. --- The Evil Tofu (Only Human) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: How to free subviews ? Date: 3 Feb 1997 20:56:00 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 7 Message-ID: <5d5jd0$nur@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <5d2k6v$6a@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: cnyap@next I> > [subviews free]; This line of code frees the View's List of subviews...not the subviews themselves! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!gatech!ncar!newshost.lanl.gov!corvette.mst6.lanl.gov!tesuque!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: New User/Developer Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:29:38 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5d3f22$e1s@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> References: <5cuq61$3nn@news.digifix.com> <5cuvm9$lb4@news.istar.ca> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: jsamson@istar.ca In <5cuvm9$lb4@news.istar.ca> Jean-Paul C. Samson wrote: > >>I dug right into the Developer tutorial and have come across an > >>anomaly that is probably very easy to remedy and I look for your > >>advise. In the Currency Exchange tutorial on page 27 they direct me > >>to drag the NSReturnSign icon from the nib file window onto the > >>Convert button, but there is no NSReturnSign icon in the nib file! > >>What did I do wrong, or better yet, how can I get that icon to show > >>up? > > They took out the return sign icon. Instead, the default button now > has a thick black bezel, like Windows. > > Sadly, the Developer Tutorial book is filled with inaccuracies. They > didn't do a very good job proofreading and testing the book. Maybe > NeXT just ran out of time in preparing for the OPENSTEP 4.0 release. > The book will give you a good idea of how to go about programming > OPENSTEP applications, but don't expect the resulting programs to work > very well. > > It sure looked like NeXT had developed a bad case of Windows Envy before losing interest in OpenStep and focusing on WebObjects. The 4.0 beta borrowed a number of things from Windows95---blue window bars, window open/close buttons on the right, the fat button meaning carriage return, instead of the right angle arrow symbol. It was very dismaying to see. A loss of nerve. I'd like to see a Return of the Return! -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!hermes.is.co.za!news From: gvandyk@icon.co.za Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: LU6.2 Interface Date: 4 Feb 1997 09:39:57 GMT Organization: E.S. Systems cc (Financial Systems Development) Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5d705d$27b@hermes.is.co.za> NNTP-Posting-Host: a6-jhb-15.dial-up.net X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-10001-01 We need to communicate to MVS using LU6.2. Has anyone done this before and what is involved in doing this? Any help would be greatly appreciated -- Regards, Gerrit van Dyk email: gvandyk@icon.co.za (NeXTMail welcome) E.S. Systems cc The OBJECT is the ADVANTAGE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!news From: boudra@cimac-res.univ-lyon1.fr (Abdel BOUDRAA) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: How to Display an image on NeXT station???? Date: 4 Feb 1997 11:39:07 GMT Organization: UCBL Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5d774r$75j@tempo.univ-lyon1.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: bio-phy-1.univ-lyon1.fr Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.5 Hello, Can anyone tell me where I can find a sample code to display an image(8Bits, 256x256) using NXImage classe. Thanks in advace, ----------------------------- A. BOUDRAA Faculte RTH Laennec Lyon France E-mail:boudra@cimac-res.univ-lyon1.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail From: "Mark Jenkins" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Tutorial Question Date: 5 Feb 97 01:12:02 -0600 Lines: 101 Message-ID: References: <5d8j5q$he2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.101.238.21 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "mmalcolm crawford" X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a2 X-News-Servers: news.alpha.net X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.alpha.net/comp.sys.next.programmer On Tue, Feb 4, 1997 6:10 PM, mmalcolm crawford wrote: >Difficult to know exactly without seeing the code... I presume you're doing >something like sending a setFloatValue: message to your text field? Are you >sure the parameter is correct? Could you post (or email) the relevant code >snippet? > >Best wishes, > >mmalc. I appreciate your help immensely! :-) Well, as usual I decided to start from scratch. What do they say? Repetition? Anyway The NaN is gone and now I am not receiving anything. gdb tell's me: Feb 5 00:27:46 CurrencyConverter[23068] *** -[Converter convertAmount:byRate:]: selector not recognized When I click the convert button I get the above twice in gdb. The following code was type in directly from the tutorial .... Is spacing critical? They do not say anything about it in the manual. -----------------------------------------------Converter.h------------------------------------------ #import #import @interface Converter : NSObject { } - (float)convertAmount:(float)rate byRate:(float)amt; @end -----------------------------------------------Converter.m------------------------------------------ #import "Converter.h" @implementation Converter - (float)convertAmount:(float)amt: byRate: (float)rate { return (amt * rate); } @end ----------------------------------------------- ConverterController.h------------------------------------------ #import @interface ConverterController : NSObject { id converter; id dollarField; id rateField; id totalField; } - (void)convert:(id)sender; @end -----------------------------------------------ConverterController.m------------------------------------------ #import "ConverterController.h" #import "Converter.h" @implementation ConverterController - (void)convert: (id)sender { float rate, amt, total; amt = [dollarField floatValue]; rate = [rateField floatValue]; total = [converter convertAmount:amt byRate:rate]; [totalField setFloatValue:total]; [rateField selectText:self]; } - (void)awakeFromNib { [rateField selectText:self]; [[rateField window] makeKeyAndOrderFront:self]; } @end #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: woody@alumni.caltech.edu (William Edward Woody) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 23:13:41 -0800 Organization: In Phase Consulting Lines: 64 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alumnae.caltech.edu X-Reality-Check: Failed X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.1d3+ Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22388 comp.sys.mac.system:196892 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3921 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60588 In article <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > Let me say it more simply: as much as you and I find perverse > joy in the nooks and crannies of a Unix world: > > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** > > and that's all there is to it. And guess what, there are about > 19 million more "Mac users" than there are "techies who like > Macs but secretly wish they could grep sometimes." First, take a deep breath, and relax. The sky isn't really falling, as much as it seems like it. Second, let me note that I was also concerned with the idea of having a Unix kernel underlying the MacOS--as soon as such a thing hit the shelves it wouldn't be long before someone did 'tsh', at which point, we may as well have simply exposed people to the shell. See, to me the beauty of the Mac experience was to force us tech-heads out of the CLI-driven obscure filter applications and find a new computing paradigm and program interface which was suitable to the idea of a computer as an appliance (as opposed to a computer as a souped-up card batch processing engine). Don't get me wrong: NeXT's Interface builder, the object oriented mechanism for building complex and intuitive user interfaces, was also a godsend--it assisted in getting the much more user-centric applications off the ground. But it was the Macintosh which first forced us into that mold--by being the first mass-produced computer system which was WYSIWYG and windowing-driven. But get this: Mach is *NOT* Unix. Mach has been used to build a Unix compatable OS, and most people tend to build off of a Unix client built on top of the Mach kernel because that's what most of us programmers are familiar with. But ultimately, using the Mach kernel does not mean the Macintosh will operate as a layer on top of Unix. Instead, it means Apple will more likely create various OS "servers" which service operating system calls in the same way the Unix server operates. In fact, I suspect both the "yellow box" and the "blue box" are really just Mach servers providing different operating system personalities. And it means that the yellow box containing the NeXTStep API could contain the unix servers which make many elements of NeXTStep work, yet not force the personality of Unix system-wide. (Sort of like the Posix personality module you were talking about--just because it exists doesn't mean the file system mounts disks a'la Unix, or the boot process requires a /etc/rc script to be executed.) Heck, I would even *welcome* such a personality module: sometimes it would be nice to be able to compress or decompress files behind the scenes in my application by simply calling 'system("uncompress file.Z")', instead of having to deal a bunch of AppleEvents to do the same thing. - Bill -- William Edward Woody - In Phase Consulting - woody@alumni.caltech.edu http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!scottm From: scottm@nic.com (Scott) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 04:09:26 -0500 Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals) Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: phd-as8s59.erols.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22389 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:185885 comp.sys.mac.system:196895 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56322 In article , maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: >> For Copland, Apple was going to include the ability to have separate >> preferences for multiple users and perhaps protected filespace, so I'm >> sure they'll go at least that far. > > Copeland's method for this was to simply return different fid's for the >Preferences folder. As long as no one hard wired the folder locations >(and that should not be an issue) it would have worked great. > Well there go the M$ applications. :-) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Scott Maxwell - scottm (at) nic (dot) com "The Mac is plug and play, Windows is plug and pray." David Forte Technology Manager (TIME Magazine) "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated" - Mac Twain #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 4 Feb 97 11:21:12 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 46 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-10-9.access.one.net In-reply-to: Charles William Swiger's message of Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:19:45 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5217 comp.sys.next.programmer:22390 In article <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger writes: Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 30-Jan-97 "static inline" methods wou.. by Scott Hess@one.net > Something I'd like to see in Objective-C would be static inline > methods. Say you have something like the Storage object, and you have > a method like: What you are asking for, "static inline functions", means that the compiler has to make all decisions at compile time, and that you therefore cannot rely on any dynamic properties of the runtime, like dynamic method invocation, or subclassing, etc-- but that's what you want, to avoid the overhead of objC_msgSend. This is what Java does when it sees the "final" keyword. Given that this is the case, why not simply use C macros to inline -elementAt: directly and let the compiler optimize from there? In fact, this allows you to also provide a real method implementation which could be used dynamicly by subclasses if needed, but you could use the macro version whenever you know that it's okay.... I've certainly done that in the past. First problem is simply aesthetic - method calls should look like method calls. It's sort of like using a macro to act like a static inline function - if you had to change the interface to do it, it becomes much less attractive. Perhaps a bigger problem, though, is that changing to a macro (or static inline function) requires you to change the usage sites, rather than the definition. This requires significantly more work, and you want to be pretty sure of the benefits before doing it. [If you immediately want to back out, it's easy, but as you layer other code on top of that, you start working yourself into a corner.] Besides, quite frankly, I'd want the compiler handling this in order to help warn me about errors. With the compiler handling the inlining, it can easily warn me about a subclass which overrides the inlined method - using a macro or static inline function will give me no warning if I'm using it on a subclass. Admittedly, it can't give complete coverage, but it should be able to give warning when compiling a subclass that overrides such a method, or when dispatching the method to such a subclass. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!homer.alpha.net!not-for-mail From: "Mark Jenkins" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Tutorial Question Date: 4 Feb 97 13:16:36 -0600 Lines: 23 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.101.238.18 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a2 X-News-Servers: news.alpha.net X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.alpha.net/comp.sys.next.programmer As I stated in earlier posts, I am brand new to Unix, C and OPENSTEP. So far I love it! I am starting to learn the Project Builder and Interface Builder and have come accross a problem that is probably a very simple (ie. stupid mistake?) fix. In the first app Currency Converter I get a successfull build and compile. However, when I click the Convert Button the result that is placed in the "Amount in Other Currency" field displays :NaN (What does this indicate?) What did I do wrong? TIA Mark markj@inwave.com #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!grizzly.cs.washington.edu!scottwb From: "Scott W. Bradley" Subject: NeXT Semaphores? help... Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: news@beaver.cs.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U of Washington, Seattle Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: grizzly.cs.washington.edu Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 22:28:35 GMT Lines: 18 I have a program that compiles on various other flavores of unix that uses system semaphores. It does not compile on nextstep though. I get things like "key_t" undefined. Alos, I can't even locate a header file that I usually use called . I can't seem to find procedures like semget(). Can anybody please give any advice on how to get this to work? Help greatly appreciated -scott +-----------------------+-----------------------------------------+ | Scott W. Bradley | Home: 206.485.4142 | | 14128 NE 181st PL | Work: 206.685.2167 | | Apt. # K205 | mailto:scottwb@cs.washington.edu | | Woodinville, WA 98072 | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~scottwb/ | +-----------------------------------------------------------------+ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news.m.shuttle.de!news.b.shuttle.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 19:11:15 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5dam0j$bd1$4@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: macintsh@bu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22393 comp.sys.mac.system:197021 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3928 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60640 In <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: > You want Unix? Buy MkLinux! Just one last little comment.. Your assertion here seems to equate Nextstep with any other flavor of Unix, such that there is even a meaningful comparison of Mklinux to Nextstep for those who want unix functionality. The ignorance contained in just those 2 sentances (not to mention the entire rest of your post) is dumbfounding. It is as logical to advocate this sort of attitude as it would be for someone to tell you that you should switch from your Mac to Dos/Win3.0. The scale of difference between Dos + Windows 3 and the Mac is the same scale of difference between any other flavor of Unix (with or without Mach) + X and Nextstep. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 14:49:22 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <32F8E442.118B@subsequent.com> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22394 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186037 comp.sys.mac.system:197022 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56399 Tim Streater wrote: > > In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis > Butler) wrote: > >This is the antithesis of the personal computer movement, and it's the > >exact opposite of everything the Mac has stood for. I don't know if you > >paid much attention to the early Mac market, or Apple's early advertising > >-- but I still remember an early Mac demo, and the speech-synthesis > >application that went with it: "Wouldn't it be easier to teach computers > >about people, rather than teaching people about computers?" That philosophy > >is one of the things that's kept me loyal to the Mac, through thick and > >thin: the computer should adapt to the user, and computing power should be > >used to make things easier for the user -- not the other way around. The > >computer is there for the user, after all, not the user for the computer. > > Sad, isn't it, that some people still don't get this. Nerds are frightened > by this philosophy, though. And yet, Apple themselves realized that some order was in order, and added some structure to the System folder. Evidently, they figured out that some structure is a good thing. Whaddya guys want, Windows-style file chaos? Bleah. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: 4 Feb 1997 22:59:49 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 80 Message-ID: <5d8f15$fvt@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5bloik$aqu@crl.crl.com> <5bm1pa$i8u@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bn49f$bev@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5bok4a$q23@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5bq05v$7t9@duke.squonk.net> <5c0b1d$aiu@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c1osd$c0s@news.digifix.com> <5c4ed7$fjt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5c6s1d$2oh@news.digifix.com> <5co5ja$lv8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <5co5ja$lv8@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22395 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56402 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186042 comp.sys.mac.system:197024 [followups trimmed] Sorry this is a bit old now, however I'm just starting to read news again and couldn't see that this had been addressed: On 01/29/97, William Raphael Hix wrote: > Software for NeXT consists of a strong set of utilities provided by NeXT > as part of the OS, a relatively few shrink-wrapped apps, some compiled > shareware and a lot of compilable software drawing on NeXT's Unix legacy. > NeXT users therefore depend heavily on the core set of utilites which > are part of the OS and their Unix derived apps (arriving in tar files). > Umm, hang on a moment... ls ~/Apps 3DReality.app OmniPDF.app Astraloids.app OmniWeb.app Babble OpenWrite.app BeYap.app Opener.app C2Converter.app PageChoice.app CATculator.app Palette.app CedarWord.app ParaSheet.app ComponentEditor.app PasteUp.app Concurrence.app PencilMeIn.app Quantrix.app ConvertSelection.app RBrowser.app Create.app RZToDoList.app Diagram.app SplitBuilder EditSound.app SuperDraw.app Eloquent.app TIFFany2.app Encipher.app Tailor.app FrameMaker.app TaskMaster.app GifOmatic.app Thinner.app HNNews.app ToyViewer.app Jargon.app Twister.app LatinByrd.app VarioBuilder.app LaunchBar.app VarioData.app Mail.app WebMapper.app Mesa.app WebUp.app WetPaint.app Workbench.app Morph.app WriteUp.app MusicBuilder-1.0-Prerelease eXTRAPDF_Beta2.rtfd NewsFlash.app soundCheck.app OmniImage.app and there are a number of other apps I'd like to buy if I could afford it, and some I have bought but don't use at the moment and don't have disk space for (I'm almost up to my 1GB quota... ). When you say "relatively few", I think I know what you're getting at -- there are not thousands of NEXTSTEP applications all competing in the same market sector as there are with, say Windows (i.e. the remainder of the market not swamped by Micro$oft), however there are still plenty of good quality shrinkwrap productivity apps available (I've got about 6 word-processor-type apps) -- I most certainly do *not* "depend heavily on the core set of utilites which are part of the OS and their Unix derived apps". This next point has rather been overtaken by events, however with full 20/20 hindsight I'd say: > I have no doubt that Apple will ship Rhapsody, fully compliant with the > OpenStep API, for $100-200 dollars, giving power users access to all the > features of the expanded API. I think that the open questions are "How > much will Rhapsody be like OpenStep/Mach, and how much it'll cost to > make it so?" > I think -- given AppLE's current need to get the system out of the door and on developers' desks -- the question is more like "How much will Rhapsody be like OpenStep/Mach, given how much it'll cost to make it *not* so?" Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!rain.fr!ai.alienor.fr!xlan!news From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr Subject: How positionning tab stops? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hp-712-60 Message-ID: Sender: news@x-lan.alienor.fr Organization: x&lan X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8a) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 16:36:48 GMT Lines: 42 I've tried : int i; NXTextStyle *deftStyle; NXTabStop *tabList; deftStyle=[self defaultParaStyle]; tabList=deftStyle->tabs; nbTab=deftStyle->numTabs; for(i=0;ix to:longMax*(i+1)]; } AND : int i; NXTextStyle *deftStyle; NXTabStop *tabList; deftStyle=[self defaultParaStyle]; tabList=deftStyle->tabs; nbTab=deftStyle->numTabs; for(i=0;ix=longMax*(i+1); } [self setParaStyle:deftStyle]; But no way......... -- --------------------------------------- | O_O | O_O -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Fred Galot fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!roger.interlynx.net!visgen.com!not-for-mail From: robert@visgen.com (Robert Osborne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Date: 5 Feb 1997 11:21:58 -0500 Organization: Visible Genetics Inc. Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5dac36$bps@knuth.visgen.com> References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> <5crrde$19s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <32F38AB7.27ED@online.disney.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.visgen.com Joseph Panico wrote: >4.1 Mach PB has many, many problems. Tell me about it! Has anybody heard back from NeXT? I've submitted half a dozen or more bugs so far ... >- It's very easy to crash. Go to classes in the project file browser, >double click on a .m, then double click on a .h-- splat! Interesting. What happens to me is that suddenly there is no key window. Almost like it wants to open a new window but can't ... My favourite bug is that if I go to a block of code and type: /* and hit return PB crashes! Not always - seems to be dependant upon the code above that line (I think the autoformater is bailing ...) >- I cannot find a place to set the tab-stops and the number of spaces > per tab You have to set the preference "ProjectBuilder TabStopChars 4" outside of PB and rerun. Rob. -- Robert A. Osborne, robert@visgen.com "It's now safe to turn off your computer." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!usenet From: "Bill Keller" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Printing under Openstep Date: 4 Feb 1997 23:44:38 GMT Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Lines: 15 Message-ID: <01bc12c3$95adcf90$06254e8b@carcosa> NNTP-Posting-Host: stf-dialup01.cvm.okstate.edu X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 I've got Openstep 4.1 for NT, and have written several small utilities for work. When I got to the report printing section, I discover that Openstep won't work with non-postscript printers. Wha?! I had assumed Openstep for NT would just go through the NT printmanager. Does anyone have any experience with this, or a workaround? Under Nextstep 3.3, I used JetPilot to print to my inkjet. It was awfully slow, but it worked. Is there a similar emulation driver for NT, or am I stuck buying a postscript printer? BTW, anyone use JetPilot under Openstep for Mach? Does it still work? -- Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: WM Inspector Question... Date: 5 Feb 1997 00:02:52 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5d8inc$hcp@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5cgjaq$9g7@news.iastate.edu> <5cihg4$fsr@castor.cca.rockwell.com> <5ck5so$lor@news.iastate.edu> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <5ck5so$lor@news.iastate.edu> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 On 01/28/97, ??? wrote: > On 01/27/97, Erik M. Buck wrote: > >In <5cgjaq$9g7@news.iastate.edu> ??? wrote: > >> I have a simple question: I would like to have a bitmap (on > >> top of a button) in my WM Inspector Panel. > > > >Add the image to the images suitcase in IB. > > > I am not sure if you got my EMAIL response, but I tried that, > and it still cannot find it. I get no image. I check to make sure I > wasn't setting the button as transparent or anything... is this a > normal problem? > Shouldn't be... What version of NEXTSTEP are you using? Do you have any code you could send? Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Tutorial Question Date: 5 Feb 1997 00:10:34 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5d8j5q$he2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 On 02/04/97, "Mark Jenkins" wrote: > As I stated in earlier posts, I am brand new to Unix, C and OPENSTEP. > > So far I love it! > Good-oh! :-) > However, when I click the Convert Button the result that is placed in the > "Amount in Other Currency" field displays :NaN (What does this indicate?) > "Not a Number" > What did I do wrong? > Difficult to know exactly without seeing the code... I presume you're doing something like sending a setFloatValue: message to your text field? Are you sure the parameter is correct? Could you post (or email) the relevant code snippet? Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!cdouty From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Message-ID: Summary: Hardly! Organization: Netcom On-Line Services References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 22:32:01 GMT Lines: 33 Sender: cdouty@netcom4.netcom.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22401 comp.sys.mac.system:197073 In article , Anton Rang wrote: > Well, yes and no. While I agree that it's possible to build a decent >GUI for *file management* on a UNIX system, there are a lot of operations >a user can do on MacOS today which couldn't easily be done in a UNIX >environment without major changes. > > Consider double-clicking a document. How do you know which program to >launch? HFS provides the type and creator, which together with the >desktop database define both the default application as well as a list of >other applications which know how to open the file. Typical UNIX file >systems don't have this information available to them, [snip] You've NEVER used a NeXT, have you? NeXTstep and OpenStep for Mach (the current incarnation) and NOT typical Unix systems. Stop the FUD frenzy! When I double-click on an icon in the Workspace Manager, the prefered application for that file-type opens the file. If I want to use a different application, I open an inspector which presents me a list of all installed applications which can open that file-type. Drag-and-drop "just works," too. Relax, Rhapsody will be better than you can imagine. -Chris -- Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software cdouty@netcom.com "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 02:22:34 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 68 Message-ID: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22402 comp.sys.mac.system:197089 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3932 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60665 Jeez, I just read that 200+ post thread in c.s.next.programmer about "ripping Unix out" of NeXTSTEP. I really don't think that Apple is going to end up with "Unix with a GUI on top" at the end of their Rhapsody development. Now I know most NeXT users love Unix. I know it's fun to tar -cf - Papers | rsh pooh tar -xf - instead of using Apple file sharing, but the plain fact is: that has never been a part of the Mac OS experience. There are millions of Macs out ther, and the common thread among them is that they don't require that type of thing! They run Photoshop, Electric Image, PageMaker, and WordPerfect. They *don't* run xdmcp, biod, rcp, emacs, vi, gcc, ld, troff, and mv. Further, you CANNOT hope to get the current millions of Mac users to replace their OS with an OS that acts like Unix! And believe me, no matter how much you "hide" the unix, it'll never be "like a Mac" to those millions of users. On a Mac, icons do not "represent" or "point to" or "indicate" your files. They *ARE* your files. That icon *IS* your disk drive. That just isn't going to happen in the world of Unix. And why *should* Apple keep *any* vestiges of Unix? All they have to do is use a modern kernel with a modern API. Everything else is an implemntation. Add a POSIX sublayer, if you want. But there will be none of this /usr/bin foolishness. A huge Unix tree of libraries and executables is simply not revelant in an operating system that uses a MetroWerks development environment and a Finder-like program for file manipulation. Hell, even most modern Unix users and admins forego the soup of two-letter shell-script-invoked untilities for a more full-featured and reliable tool: perl You want Unix? Buy MkLinux! You want Unix in Rhapsody? Write your own mini-Unix on top of the POSIX subsystem. Recompile tcsh, mv, rm, cp, and friends, and away you go! Hell, I've got a full Unix user environment on my SE/30 via MacMint, an implementation of an Atari Unix, of all things. Filename completion, command-line magic, perl, the works. There's no reason a suitably insane person couldn't add this to his Mac. But there's no reason a SANE Apple would compromise it's 12 year old operating system and UI philosophy to keep it in its next- generation OS! Yes, it may be in there initially. But you can bet your booty that they'll remove it as soon asn they get the chance. Don't get me wrong. Although I've owned a Mac since the 128k, I'm an avid Unix user. Unix was the first platform I programmed for, and I use it every day. But my Mac is my Mac. If I wanted an OS on my desk at home in which I could cp my .cshrc to ~blee I would be running Linux. Let me say it more simply: as much as you and I find perverse joy in the nooks and crannies of a Unix world: *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** and that's all there is to it. And guess what, there are about 19 million more "Mac users" than there are "techies who like Macs but secretly wish they could grep sometimes." -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!jcg161.rh.psu.edu!user From: jude@smellycat.com (Jude Giampaolo) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Tue, 04 Feb 1997 23:01:48 -0500 Organization: CyberDrugs Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: jcg161.rh.psu.edu X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b4 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22403 comp.sys.mac.system:197106 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3933 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60671 In article <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** Yes they will. As long as it is an "extra feature" rather than a primary part of the user experience. I hate to say it, but sort of like the way Win95 sits on top of DOS. (But better of course....) -- Jude Giampaolo -- Penn State University -- Electrical Engineering jcg161@psu.edu - jude@smellycat.com - http://prozac.cwru.edu/jude/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!unixg.ubc.ca!bbennett From: bbennett@unixg.ubc.ca (Bruce Bennett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 20:30:10 -0800 Organization: University of British Columbia Lines: 28 Message-ID: <19970204203010615609@port09.annex3.net.ubc.ca> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port09.annex3.net.ubc.ca X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22404 comp.sys.mac.system:197109 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3935 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60676 John Siracusa wrote: > On a Mac, icons do not "represent" or "point to" or "indicate" > your files. They *ARE* your files. That icon *IS* your disk > drive. I hadn't realized this. Hell, who needs Plug-and-Play when we Mac folk can replace a disk drive with a mere Cut-and-Paste operation? :^) > You want Unix? Buy MkLinux! You want Unix in Rhapsody? Write > your own mini-Unix on top of the POSIX subsystem. Recompile > tcsh, mv, rm, cp, and friends, and away you go! Hell, I've got > a full Unix user environment on my SE/30 via MacMint Eek. MacMiNT's a nifty doodad indeed, but it's very far from a full unix user environment. > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** This one certainly will, provided it materializes only when summoned. What I don't see can't hurt me -- so long as it works. Magnificent rant, though, and you may well be correct in guessing that Apple intends to completely rid Rhapsody of unix so as not to frighten the the mass market with "incomprehensible", "old" unix -- call it The Revenge of the Herds. -- Bruce Bennett #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!utpapa.ph.utexas.edu!dawson From: dawson@utpapa.ph.utexas.edu (Doug Dawson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 05:00:21 GMT Organization: Physics Department, University of Texas at Austin Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5d9455$jkt@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: utpapa.ph.utexas.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22405 comp.sys.mac.system:197117 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3936 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60679 John Siracusa wrote: >Jeez, I just read that 200+ post thread in c.s.next.programmer >about "ripping Unix out" of NeXTSTEP. I really don't think that >Apple is going to end up with "Unix with a GUI on top" at the >end of their Rhapsody development. > >Now I know most NeXT users love Unix. I know it's fun to tar >-cf - Papers | rsh pooh tar -xf - instead of using Apple file >sharing, but the plain fact is: that has never been a part of >the Mac OS experience. [ tamp ] UNIX as an optional environment on top of the Mac GUI is an act of genius the likes of which the world has seldom seen. Make of that what you will ( and I mean _will_, not do. ) Doug Dawson dawson@physics.utexas.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!wong!iano From: Ian Russell Ollmann Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 21:26:15 -0800 Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <19970204203010615609@port09.annex3.net.ubc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: wong.scripps.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: iano@wong In-Reply-To: <19970204203010615609@port09.annex3.net.ubc.ca> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22406 comp.sys.mac.system:197123 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3937 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60685 Those of you Unix nuts out there who actually want to see unix appear on Mac hardware might strongly consider voicing your support for continued Linux development at http://www.mklinux.apple.com/forms/register.html Even if you are like me and was planning to get around to installing Linux some time Real Soon Now, you might wish to voice your intent before the product vaporizes. Ian Ollmann #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Printing under Openstep Date: 5 Feb 1997 06:09:19 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5d986f$pag$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: <01bc12c3$95adcf90$06254e8b@carcosa> Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article <01bc12c3$95adcf90$06254e8b@carcosa> "Bill Keller" writes: [OpenStep/NT needs PS printer] > Under Nextstep 3.3, I used JetPilot to print to my inkjet. It was awfully > slow, but it worked. Is there a similar emulation driver for NT, or am I > stuck buying a postscript printer? I am currently upgrading my printer software (the technology eXTRAPRINT and Color-X were based on) to be fully OpenStep compliant. This software is almost always faster than the ink-jet being driven. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cyclops.dsphere.net!usenet From: "Andrew Kim" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: PPP Help!!! Anyone? Date: 4 Feb 97 21:52:05 -0800 Organization: Cogent Software Lines: 55 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: mfs-annex1-p12.dsphere.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0002BCFC" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.cogent.net X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.cogent.net/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.cogent.net/comp.sys.next.hardware, nntp://news.cogent.net/comp.sys.next.misc, nntp://news.cogent.net/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.cogent.net/comp.sys.next.software, nntp://news.cogent.net/comp.sys.next.sysadmin Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:56479 comp.sys.next.hardware:27034 comp.sys.next.misc:24987 comp.sys.next.programmer:22408 comp.sys.next.software:27878 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25209 --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0002BCFC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is there any one can tell me how to set up PPP for OpenStep 4.0 (040 Black) by step by step instruction? Online help does not gives me a bit helpful. I have Supra Sonic and NeXTstation Color. I am very confused and I have a no idea what to do. Thank you for any suggestion. PS. I tried Gatekeeper, & Kermit. but never worked. What did I do wrong??? --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0002BCFC Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0002BCFC" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0002BCFC Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 12PalatinoIs there any one can tell me how to set up PPP for OpenStep 4.0 (040 Black) by step by step instruction? Online help does not gives me a bit helpful. I have Supra Sonic and NeXTstation Color. I am very confused and I have a no idea what to do. Thank you for any suggestion. PS. I tried Gatekeeper, & Kermit. but never worked. What did I do wrong??? --Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-0002BCFC-- --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0002BCFC-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: "Chris" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Help a new OpenStep 4.1 NT Developer! Date: 6 Feb 1997 06:02:48 GMT Organization: x Lines: 77 Message-ID: <01bc13f3$39944410$992274cf@openstep-nt> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.116.34.153 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Hi everyone, Let me say that I am very excited about the NeXT/Apple deal. I have been interested in NeXT for a couple of years now, but I honestly believed that NeXT would go bankrupt soon. But with news of the merger I went out and bought OpenStep 4.1 developer for NT. My Problem: My friend and I wrote a few dummy programs under NeXT 3.3 in a standard text editor and compiled them from the command line, without problem. When I tried to run the same program at home under NT, I get the following error message: Jethro.m:5: "Cannot find interface declaration for 'Object', superclass of 'JethroClass' Here is the complete source: <---------------------------------------------------snip-------------------- -------------------------------> #import @interface JethroClass: Object { } @end @interface SallieMae: Object { } @end @implementation JethroClass { } @end @implementation SallieMae: Object { } @end void main() { //-- Declarations id oJethro; int x; SEL MySelector; oJethro = [[JethroClass alloc] init]; x = [oJethro isKindOf: [JethroClass class]]; if (x) { printf("Yes, oJethro is a kind of JethroClass!\n"); } else { printf("No way man!\n"); } MySelector = sel_getUid("isKindOf:"); x = (int) [oJethro perform: MySelector with: [SallieMae class]]; if (x) { printf("Yes, oJethro is a kind of SalllieMae!\n"); } else { printf("Are you fucking with me, or are you just stupid?\n"); } exit(0); } <---------------------------------------------------snip-------------------- -------------------------------> I suspect that this is a simple problem to fix, but I've been at it for 2 days now, and I am getting just a little frustrated. Any comments and help would definately be appreciated. Thank you for your time. -- Chris BTW: My e-mail address is CErker@rnt.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 6 Feb 1997 06:36:32 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 56 Message-ID: <5dbu5g$6i5@darla.visi.com> References: <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> <5c8j8b$10sg@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5c93h6$3ur@darla.vis <5d2mec$431@darla.visi.com> <5da5dv$hld@netty.york.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11249 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3939 comp.sys.next.programmer:22410 Roger Peppe (rog@ohm.york.ac.uk) wrote: : since it's an OO language, the parameter types should be evident from : the type of the object. if objective C provided decent type checking, : and separate namespaces for different objects/protocols, then : the compiler could check that the parameters were in fact of the : required type. Well, they could have done: - drawImage:image { // switch on the class of passed objcet } But why go to that effort? It'd involve raising an error if the passed parameter wasn't an acceptable type, and would generally be unclean. However, none of this would matter if you had an image protocol which all image-ish objects conformed to. Personally, I'd prefer OpenStep over a framework that took the static approach, say, MFC, or OpenClass. But that's just me. : long method names are a hack to get around the criminal lack of : namespace control in objective C. Maybe I'm missing something, but what does a long method name have to do with the framework's namespace control? Namespace control goes as far as class collision, and that's it. Having said that, I do like Java's hierarchical namespaces, but they're still not without their problems. : and i don't know about anyone else, but i find myself looking up : those long method names almost every time i use them (to check : on exact phrasing and capitalisation), whereas i usually know : what parameters they take. itsQuiteSimpleAllOpenStepMethodsHaveCapitalizationLikeThis. : if objects are well designed, then a method name that reflects the : action to be taken and not the types that the method takes : should be perfectly adequate for self documenting code : (and much more robust in the event that the argument type changes) Types are as much a part of objects as anything else. There's no reason why method names shouldn't include them. There's every reason why they should include them in a dynamically typed language. Nonetheless, I see where you're going. Instead of drawImage, drawRect, and drawString, we could just have draw, and have long *variable* names instead. Then we'd get to change them from object to object, method to method, and have no change of remember anything. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!decwrl!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!brundage From: brundage@ipac.caltech.edu (Michael Brundage) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 22:34:39 -0800 Organization: Infrared Processing Analysis Center, Caltech Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: mars.ipac.caltech.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.1 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22411 comp.sys.mac.system:197141 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3940 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60700 In article <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net>, sdmeyers wrote: > You know it would be extreamly easy to map a GUI on top of UNIX in such a way > that the User will work with it in the same way that they work with the MacOS > today [...] Yeah, and Apple has already done it once (MAE). The thing that amazes me is that UNIX is literally older than I am, and it seems to be alive and kicking well (and what is it's market share, hmm?). I think the idea of a Macintosh presenting different kinds of (inter)faces to different types of users is totally excellent (at least, in theory). michael brundage@ipac.caltech.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news-feed.iguide.com!news.ziplink.net!connelly From: connelly@dawnstar.darc.org (Paul Connelly) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 01:46:41 -0500 Organization: Dawnstar Advanced Research Collaborative Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dawnstar.darc.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22412 comp.sys.mac.system:197142 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3941 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60701 In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. The shell is the best part of UNIX though. The tools that come with the shell are great. Just get rid of that horrid directory structure. (Let's see, is that program in /bin, or was it /usr/bin, or /usr/local/bin, or....?) - paul -- Ut ibi arduum cursum angelorum perficiam #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!jobone!dailyplanet.srl.ford.com!eccws1.dearborn.ford.com!news From: "Thomas E. Zak" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 16:58:52 -0500 Organization: Ford Motor Company Lines: 23 Message-ID: <32F9029C.FF6@earthlink.net> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: pmsb29.pms.ford.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0S (X11; I; IRIX64 6.2 IP28) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22413 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186281 comp.sys.mac.system:197159 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56503 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > In article <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org>, Pohl Longsine > wrote: > > > Wouldn't it be easier to teach the computer about how people > > program than to teach the programmer how to jump through quirky > > hoops in the toolbox? > > Point taken and all, but the user community outnumbers the developer > community a bit (like 100 to 1). That has to be taken into consideration. > As a Mac user for 8 years, and a Unix/PC developer for 4 years, I disagree with the 100:1 justification. If Apple had made their programming interface easier, I would probably be a Mac developer right now, and the code base for the Macintosh would be expanded. Also, the programmer base would be expanded, making it easier for companies wanting to support the platform to get competent programmers. Thomas E. Zak tzak@earthlink.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 18:01:00 -0500 Organization: SoftArc Inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org> <32F9029C.FF6@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22414 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186300 comp.sys.mac.system:197165 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56506 In article <32F9029C.FF6@earthlink.net>, "Thomas E. Zak" wrote: > As a Mac user for 8 years, and a Unix/PC developer for 4 years, > I disagree with the 100:1 justification. If Apple had made > their programming interface easier, I would probably be a > Mac developer right now, and the code base for the Macintosh > would be expanded. Also, the programmer base would be expanded, > making it easier for companies wanting to support the platform > to get competent programmers. The point in question though is about where the OS let's you place applications (if I'm reading the thread correctly). The reply to this being a problem (and I certainly think it is) is that this is no worse than forcing the developer to do odd things. Well like I said, that's definitely true, but while few of us are programmers, ALL of us are users. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!kithrup.com!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: sef@kithrup.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <4092552e.17046336@news.zippo.com> Date: 6 Feb 1997 09:31:38 GMT Control: cancel <4092552e.17046336@news.zippo.com> Message-ID: Sender: cjtech@inreach.com X-Cancelled-By: sef@kithrup.com Approved: sef@kithrup.com Lines: 1 Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.com!mindspring!psinntp!pubxfer.news.psi.net!citizen From: TimT@asiatlanta.com (Tim Triemstra) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Porting: NS 3.3 to OpenStep NT 4.1? Do I need Mach 4.1 too? Date: Wed, 05 Feb 97 21:59:27 GMT Organization: Alpha Star International Lines: 40 Message-ID: <5db07d$26r@client3.news.psi.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.240.207.1 X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 Ok, this is going to be a big project but I HAVE to port a NS 3.3 application to run under OpenStep NT v4.1... A subproject of the code will need to be re-written and compiled to link with Windows NT code (I do have Visual C++ v4.2). I do now have NeXT 3.3 (for Intel) running so I can make changes to the old .nib files and such. Unfortunately, one of the palettes used in the NeXT version is no longer available (no OpenStep port) so I need to remove it with more standard text fields. This also is probably not that hard. I have taken my project to a friend's place who is running the academic bundle of OpenStep 4.1 for NT. She didn't get much of a set of docs or tools with it. There is mention in a little .hlp file of running some OpenStep scripts on the OpenStep for Mach 4.0 distribution to convert old apps to OpenStep. I can't seem to find those scripts under the NT Academic bundle. Am I: A) Missing the conversion tools because it is an academic bundle and I don't get full docs or tools? B) Missing the conversion tools because it is an NT distribution? C) Not missing the tools but am too dumb to find them? :) If so, where are the docs for using them (the 700+ K file on porting only has like 4 pages of text!?!?) Do I need to buy BOTH the Mach and NT distributions of OpenStep? That would be cute, 3 computers to port the damn thing... I *AM* able to open the old project in the OpenStep NT 4.1 Project Builder but I can't build because it says it can't find the build tool (the inspector shows /bin/gnumake which obviously isn't a legitimate NT path.) If it *IS* possible to go directly from NS 3.3 to OpenStep NT 4.1 could someone please give me some advice? Before I ship off thousands (many) of dollars to NeXT I want to know that this is going to work and what I have to buy. What manuals will I get as opposed to the academic etc... Thanks a ton people! :) (if you're reader can respond to both mail and news that would be GREAT cause I have a hard time getting all the articles from my site.) Tim Triemstra ....... TimT@ASIAtlanta.com Alpha Star International, Atlanta GA USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 6 Feb 1997 02:32:03 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22416 comp.sys.mac.system:197203 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3947 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60728 In article <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu>, John Siracusa wrote: > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. If Apple put a nice GUI on any Unix, and provided control panels and menus to manipulate and administrate the system, you'd never know. The system disk could have an "Easy Install" option that automatically logs on as root when the system boots, and you'd never have to deal with usernames or passwords. Don't worry, it will still look and act like a Mac. But I hope they don't try to rip out the Unix. I hope they keep a bash or something laying around in Rhapsody. With NeXT, they're getting an industrial-strength multi-user remote-accessible operating system. That would let them expand into jobs where those qualities are needed, and attract the Unix geeks in computer science departments across America. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!blackbush.xlink.net!ka.sub.net!nextone!nitezki From: Nitezki@NiDat.sub.org (Peter Nitezki) Subject: Re: LU6.2 Interface Message-ID: Sender: nitezki@nidat.sub.org (Peter Nitezki) Reply-To: Peter.Nitezki@bku.db.de Organization: private site of Peter Nitezki, Kraichtal, Germany References: <5d705d$27b@hermes.is.co.za> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 21:29:31 GMT Lines: 23 In article <5d705d$27b@hermes.is.co.za> gvandyk@icon.co.za writes: > We need to communicate to MVS using LU6.2. > > Has anyone done this before and what is involved in doing this? > A CICS gateway, of course. On Unix they usually come with a Unix transaction monitor package. CICS (for Unix formerly aka. as Encina by Transarc) by itself is available for AIX and HP-UX. The connection to MVS/CICS by itself also assumes a SNA network stack and hardware (like token ring adapter or a channel adapter). I haven't seen these for NEXTSTEP. Most shops I know have some HP-UX for this trick. You then either use some adapter for LU6.2 to socket interface or a XA compliant transaction monitor like Tuxedo on the platform of choice. My choice of middleware would be different but this way has been followed by more than one herd :-) -- Peter Nitezki | Nitezki@NiDat.sub.org # Blessed art thou who knoweth Staarenbergstr. 44 | Tel.: +49 7251 62495 # not about the pleasure and D-76703 Kraichtal | Fax : +49 7251 69215 # delight of being hooked GERMANY | E-mail defunct, sorry # up to the Net. Peter 1,3-5 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!wolverine.hq.cic.net!compuserve.com!news.compuserve.com!newsmaster From: amando@gcomm.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: HASH Usage? Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 12:29:16 +0200 Organization: CompuServe Incorporated Lines: 9 Message-ID: <32F9B27C.CC6@gcomm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hd14-133.compuserve.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Could anybody please tell me what is a hash function? I am trying to get a function that allways gives me a different serial number giving it a seed. I haven't found any FAQ of this or how to implement serial and activation codes for registered shareware. Any help will be appreciated! Thanks in advance! Amando Blasco #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 21:14:29 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: <32F94C95.156369DA@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org> <32F9029C.FF6@earthlink.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22419 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186375 comp.sys.mac.system:197213 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56537 Maury Markowitz wrote: > "Thomas E. Zak" wrote: > > > As a Mac user for 8 years, and a Unix/PC developer for 4 years, > > I disagree with the 100:1 justification. If Apple had made > > their programming interface easier, I would probably be a > > Mac developer right now, and the code base for the Macintosh > > would be expanded. Also, the programmer base would be expanded, > > making it easier for companies wanting to support the platform > > to get competent programmers. > > The point in question though is about where the OS let's you place > applications (if I'm reading the thread correctly). That may have been the origin of this sub-thread, but the immediate context was Apple's design philosophy about how users are supreme and how geeks don't understand this. My response was to say that NeXT took this philosophy to heart and extended it to programmers. I claimed that this philosophy is superior to Apple's single-minded focus on the user, as it treats everybody with respect. This was a tangent shooting off from the free-form-filesystem discussion, but wasn't meant to say anything about it directly. I think the original topic of discussion was that Apple unveiled their OS plans at Macworld. ;) -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!isar.de!GIMLI.genias.de!dali!news From: roland@onevision.de (Roland Schwingel) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: lichtenstein Message-ID: Sender: news@onevision.de Reply-To: Roland Schwingel Organization: OneVision GmbH, Regensburg, Germany References: Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 12:13:00 GMT Lines: 50 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22420 comp.sys.mac.system:197214 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3948 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60731 In article rang@trillium.adaptec.com (Anton Rang) writes: > In article <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net>, sdmeyers wrote: > > You know it would be extreamly easy to map a GUI on top of UNIX in such a way > > that the User will work with it in the same way that they work with the MacOS > > today (of course in turn this OS would respond in a much better fashion to the > > user). > > Well, yes and no. While I agree that it's possible to build a decent > GUI for *file management* on a UNIX system, there are a lot of operations > a user can do on MacOS today which couldn't easily be done in a UNIX > environment without major changes. > > Consider double-clicking a document. How do you know which program to > launch? HFS provides the type and creator, which together with the > desktop database define both the default application as well as a list of > other applications which know how to open the file. Typical UNIX file > systems don't have this information available to them, though there are > approaches to make it work most of the time (or all the time, if you can > enforce a file format with a fixed header). > > [... some stuff deleted for shortening ...] > -- Anton It seems to me, that you never ever have used Nextstep. You should first try it out, before shouting about something not being possible. Double click loading of documents, document loading with dragging, all that is the daily business of a Nextstep user since years. So, please cool down. And take a look. And in my opinion the File Viewer of Nextstep is far ahead of the MAC's Finder. The finder has one or two features which are currently lacking in the File Viewer of Nextstep, but File Viewer has in my opinion much more capabilities than finder, which makes him one of the very best aroung. But all this is another discussion. Bye, Roland -- ============================================================================ Roland Schwingel OneVision GmbH Developer Zeissstrasse 9 Email:roland@onevision.de 93053 Regensburg (NextMail,MIME welcome) Germany ============================================================================ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Timothy B. Stiles Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Windows 95 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 05:39:12 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5dbqf2$nnh@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjc-ca4-12.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Feb 05 11:33:22 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: NETCOMplete/3.2 Can someone please answer this question? If I have a program written for Windows 95 that won't allow you to do anything to the window except "restore" or "close" where can I change those properties? IS it in the registry? I'd like to re-enable minimize, maximize, and size functionality. Please respond ASAP and cc: to tstiles@ptp.hp.com. Your help with this is very appreciated! : ) Tim Stiles #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!portc02.blue.aol.com!newsfeed.pitt.edu!news.duq.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:30:12 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> <5dadaq$c86$1@carrera.intergate.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5dadaq$c86$1@carrera.intergate.bc.ca> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5221 comp.sys.next.programmer:22422 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 5-Feb-97 Re: "static inline" methods.. by Ian Main@Slow.kite.ml.or > Umm.. You'll have to forgive my ignorance cause I just started with objC a > couple weeks ago, but isn't it only the method calls that use the runtime > system? Pretty much, yes. You can query the runtime via pure function calls, too, but that's not common. > I just compiled a little test program using a normal inline C > function, and the compiler never said a word with -Wall (this is the GNU > compiler 2.7.2.1). Now... whether it _really_ inlined it I don't know, but > it seemed to work. It probably did inline it, because you were using normal C. Scott wants a way of inlining code through the syntax of dispatching a ObjC method invocation. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!news.cerf.net!louie.disney.com!news From: Joseph Panico Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Documentation in PB 4.1 Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 10:56:25 -0500 Organization: Disney Online Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32F9FF29.4337@online.disney.com> References: <5datht$547@q.seanet.com> Reply-To: jpanico@online.disney.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.18.62.119 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Misha M. Melikov wrote: > > For some reason I can only see AppKit and Foundation documentation in > ProjectBuilder 4.1. All other frameworks do not get indexed and > documentation can not be seen. You are not alone. Strangely enough, after a couple days of use, *some* of the EOF documentation started showing, though I didn't change any settings at all. Perhaps it just has to "warm up" a bit ;). > -m -- Joe Panico Disney Online jpanico@online.disney.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.4.124.3!cerberus.wsc.com!usenet From: Pascal Forget Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 6 Feb 1997 17:14:56 GMT Organization: WSC Investment Services, Inc. Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5dd3ig$asr@cerberus.wsc.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: pascal@wsc.com NNTP-Posting-Host: hypnos.wscis.wsc.com X-Newsreader: Kiwi [version .11] In Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! comp.sys.next.programmer macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes, > There are millions of Macs out ther, and the common thread > among them is that they don't require that type of thing! They > run Photoshop, Electric Image, PageMaker, and WordPerfect. > They *don't* run xdmcp, biod, rcp, emacs, vi, gcc, ld, troff, > and mv. Not having a command line interface doesn't affect normal users' lives, but it makes software development/maintenance harder. I would like to make an analogy with the McDonald F-101B "Voodoo" Jet fighter airplane. http://aeroweb.brooklyn.cuny.edu/aircraft/f101a.html On the Voodoo, the mechanics had to remove the engine from the engine bay to perform basic maintenance! Likewise, I believe the MacOS is low on applications serviceability, i.e it makes the life of software developers/maintainers harder than it should be. Pascal Forget -- Spammers will be hunted down and shot at. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!usenet From: woo@opus.bloomco.ornl.gov (John W. Wooten) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Starter App? Date: 6 Feb 1997 18:17:30 GMT Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, TN Lines: 24 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5dd77q$4ee@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov> Reply-To: woo@korrnet.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 160.91.216.2 I've built several apps based on the Starter app from the archives. I've just built one that has a strange behavior I've not been able to track down. I alter "only" the DocumentWindow.[h-m] so that there are text fields in the Window displayed and cause the window to read the data from a file for those fields and then mark the window "isEdited". When I close the window, things work fine, but if I then click on any part of the menu, the application crashes with a "objc: FREED(id): message free sent to freed object=0x9b11c8 or objc: FREED(id): message resetCursorRect:inView: sent to freed object=0x9ac084 I'm not freeing any objects myself. Does anyone know what the Starter application might be doing that would cause this behavior? If you don't implement anything in the DocumentWindow object, then things work fine. -- J. W. Wooten http://sacam.oren.ortn.edu/~wooten Internet Consultant NeXTmail preferred, MIME is welcome Please finger woo@160.91.216.2 for PGP public key #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!omni1!tnelson From: tnelson@voicenet.com ("Tracy Nelson") Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Date: 6 Feb 1997 19:12:29 GMT Organization: Voicenet - Internet Access - (215)674-9290 Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5ddaet$36k@news1.voicenet.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: omni1.voicenet.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22426 comp.sys.mac.system:197361 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3953 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60777 Anton Rang (rang@trillium.adaptec.com) wrote: : Well, yes and no. While I agree that it's possible to build a decent : GUI for *file management* on a UNIX system, there are a lot of operations : a user can do on MacOS today which couldn't easily be done in a UNIX : environment without major changes. Why not? It's all just ones and zeroes... : Consider double-clicking a document. How do you know which program to : launch? HFS provides the type and creator, which together with the : desktop database define both the default application as well as a list of : other applications which know how to open the file. Typical UNIX file : systems don't have this information available to them, though there are : approaches to make it work most of the time (or all the time, if you can : enforce a file format with a fixed header). But UNIX files don't *have* headers! That's one of the nice bits! Both the creator/type problem and the resource fork can be handled through a couple of changes to the inode structure. Why do you assume these things are carved in stone? : But there are harder cases. Consider dropping a document onto the icon : for a currently running application. This should generally open it within : the app; but there is no standard way (in a generic UNIX) to communicate : this -- there is no equivalent to the AppleEvents which MacOS uses. (The : situation is worse when you think about full scriptability.) Why are we discussing "generic" UNIX? If Apple's going to go to the work of creating a major new OS, why would it just glue together some off-the-net components? Get with it people, there are NO LIMITS. Saying something is "based on" something can be the same as saying "we stole all the best ideas from" something. Admittedly, there won't be *that* much opportunity for innovation this time around, with the release schedule they've got, but there's no reason that the core UNIX concepts (NOT the shells, and NOT two- letter command names) can't be forged into the heart of a new MacOS. : The Chooser (through its use of NBP) also provides functionality which : typical UNIX TCP/IP implementations don't. There's a lot of work to be : done to make any modern UNIX as user-friendly as the Mac. (I'm not saying : it's impossible; just hard.) So why not support NBP alongside TCP/IP? Who's going to know? They pull up a Chooser, and it works like the Chooser is supposed to work, who cares if it's tunneling NBP in an IP wrapper? Or do you think that TCP/IP = lpadmin? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 6 Feb 97 14:01:59 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 70 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-14-23.access.one.net In-reply-to: Charles William Swiger's message of Mon, 3 Feb 1997 08:19:45 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5223 comp.sys.next.programmer:22427 In article <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger writes: Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 30-Jan-97 "static inline" methods wou.. by Scott Hess@one.net > Something I'd like to see in Objective-C would be static inline > methods. Say you have something like the Storage object, and you have > a method like: What you are asking for, "static inline functions", means that the compiler has to make all decisions at compile time, and that you therefore cannot rely on any dynamic properties of the runtime, like dynamic method invocation, or subclassing, etc-- but that's what you want, to avoid the overhead of objC_msgSend. This is what Java does when it sees the "final" keyword. 'Nother bit of thought ... to make a static inline method safer, you could potentially have the compiler modify things to verify that "self" is actually an instance of the class which defined the method (-isMemberOf:, _not_ -isKindOf:). Such a test could potentially be coded using pointer comparisons (something like self->isa==Storage, though that isn't quite right because Storage is not something you can refer directly to). If isa doesn't match, the normal method dispatch could be called. If things can be done as pointer comparisons, then the inline version could still be substantially faster than method dispatch. Of course, this would also restrict subclass use of the inline method. That's not so much of a problem in many cases (things like Storage are generally not subclassed). All of this makes me wonder if someone has been working on a method dispatch facility like those described in Karel Driesen's papers. [Sorry, no URL on-hand, look in DejaNews perhaps.] Basically put, the fastest method dispatch would be to use an matrix of pointers to method implementations, indexed by class and selector. Then method dispatch becomes "index, index, jump". Of course, such a matrix would be much too large for normal use, so you figure out ways to compress it, while still retaining the speed. Driesen describes means of packing rows or columns together to make a single array that's smaller than the matrix was. Then method dispatch becomes something like: id objc_msgSend( id self, SEL _cmd, ...) { IMP imp; imp=impTable[ selectorTable[ _cmd]+self->isa->classNumber]; return builtin_apply( imp, self, _cmd, ...); } [Sorry, I can't recall how you do builtin_apply offhand.] Basically, you index a global selector-to-offset table by the selector (which must now be a small integer rather than a static string), adjust by a per-class classNumber, and that gives you your index into impTable. In addition, within the implementation you check that it is really the implementation for _cmd, which is easy to do because at that time you _know_ what you're implementing. [Why check _cmd? Because you pack the impTable by taking advantage of the fact that most selectors aren't implemented in most classes, and use the "holes" to pack other implementations into. So you _could_ call the wrong implementation. But the check within the implementation is fast, so it's still a net gain to do the check.] I know it wouldn't work that well in the face of NXBundle, but that can probably be worked around (probably by making non-bundle code faster while leaving bundle code with the current dispatch speed). Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.160.4!van-bc!n1van.istar!news.InterGate.BC.CA!imain From: imain@Slow.kite.ml.org (Ian Main) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 5 Feb 1997 16:43:06 GMT Organization: Internet Gateway Corporation Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5dadaq$c86$1@carrera.intergate.bc.ca> References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9s10.intergate.bc.ca X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5224 comp.sys.next.programmer:22428 In article <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 30-Jan-97 "static >inline" methods wou.. by Scott Hess@one.net >> Something I'd like to see in Objective-C would be static inline >> methods. Say you have something like the Storage object, and you have >> a method like: > >What you are asking for, "static inline functions", means that the >compiler has to make all decisions at compile time, and that you >therefore cannot rely on any dynamic properties of the runtime, like >dynamic method invocation, or subclassing, etc-- but that's what you >want, to avoid the overhead of objC_msgSend. This is what Java does >when it sees the "final" keyword. Umm.. You'll have to forgive my ignorance cause I just started with objC a couple weeks ago, but isn't it only the method calls that use the runtime system? I just compiled a little test program using a normal inline C function, and the compiler never said a word with -Wall (this is the GNU compiler 2.7.2.1). Now... whether it _really_ inlined it I don't know, but it seemed to work. Ian #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.4.124.3!cerberus.wsc.com!usenet From: Pascal Forget Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Problem with Categories, Anyone? Date: 6 Feb 1997 20:18:28 GMT Organization: WSC Investment Services, Inc. Lines: 17 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ddeak$5f8@cerberus.wsc.com> Reply-To: no-spam@uiop3.com NNTP-Posting-Host: hypnos.wscis.wsc.com X-Newsreader: Kiwi [version .11] I have a class implemented in a library. I have a category implemented in another library which adds an extra instance method to the class. While this code has been working flawlessly on NS 3.x, for over two years, on OS 4.1 Mach I get an exception telling me that the class does not respond to the selector for the method implemented in the category. Are categories broken in OpenStep 4.x? Any information would be appreciated. Best Regards, - Pascal Forget #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Upgrading Source from 2.0 Date: 6 Feb 1997 22:04:16 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5ddkh0$g8u@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 I have a very old program, written for NS2.0, I think. I have Developer 3.3, and am just starting to learn it and Developer 4.1, and am curious what it would take to update a simple 2.0 app? I tried (silly me) to just rebuild it with the new PB, and of course that failed. When I wrote the app, I knew just enough to get it done, and haven't really done any GUI programming since. Comments and advice welcome. Randy -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.4.124.3!cerberus.wsc.com!usenet From: Pascal Forget Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Problem with Categories, Anyone? Date: 6 Feb 1997 20:43:03 GMT Organization: WSC Investment Services, Inc. Lines: 5 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ddfon$606@cerberus.wsc.com> References: <5ddeak$5f8@cerberus.wsc.com> Reply-To: no-spam@uiop3.com NNTP-Posting-Host: hypnos.wscis.wsc.com X-Newsreader: Kiwi [version .11] > Are categories broken in OpenStep 4.x? linking with -all_load fixed the problem. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!psinntp!chapman.com!chapman.com!geordie From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 15:16:28 -0600 Organization: Chapman and Cutler Lines: 22 Approved: USDA Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: korper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22432 comp.sys.mac.system:197379 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3957 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60787 In article , rang@trillium.adaptec.com (Anton Rang) wrote: : But there are harder cases. Consider dropping a document onto the icon :for a currently running application. This should generally open it within :the app; but there is no standard way (in a generic UNIX) to communicate :this -- there is no equivalent to the AppleEvents which MacOS uses. (The :situation is worse when you think about full scriptability.) Actually I think Apple copied drag and drop from NeXT. It was certainly implemented in NEXTSTEP first. Macintosh applications are only now getting the interapplication level of drag and drop that NeXT has had since day one. -- Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com ********************************************************************* * The text above should in no way be construed to represent the * * opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. * ********************************************************************* #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news-out.communique.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 08:27:31 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 46 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22433 comp.lang.objective-c:5225 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 4-Feb-97 Re: "static inline" methods.. by Scott Hess@one.net > Given that this is the case, why not simply use C macros to inline > -elementAt: directly and let the compiler optimize from there? In > fact, this allows you to also provide a real method implementation > which could be used dynamicly by subclasses if needed, but you > could use the macro version whenever you know that it's okay.... > > I've certainly done that in the past. First problem is simply > aesthetic - method calls should look like method calls. It's sort of > like using a macro to act like a static inline function - if you had > to change the interface to do it, it becomes much less attractive. > > Perhaps a bigger problem, though, is that changing to a macro (or > static inline function) requires you to change the usage sites, rather > than the definition. [ ... ] Okay-- I agree that macros aren't ideal, but I did want to point out that they would do what you wanted in terms of code performance. Your point was that you want the compiler to automate this work. If there was a syntax that meant "evaluate this method call inline at compile time", that would seem to suit what you want. Maybe if you created a '#pragma' directive to indicate this, or if you created a new syntax for method invocation, something like: instead of [anObject method:args] While I'm reasonably familiar with GCC's source, I never paid any special attention to the area where Obj-C method dispatching is implemented, so I can't suggest how you'd change the compiler except in general terms. Instead of converting the [ ... ] syntax into objC_msgSend(anObject, method, arg1, arg2, ....), you'd want to expand the function corresponding to the method call inline using the same optimization mechanism that already exists to inline small functions into their callers. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 6 Feb 1997 16:05:28 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5ddh2o$fh1@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22434 comp.sys.mac.system:197385 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3958 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60789 In article , connelly@dawnstar.darc.org (Paul Connelly) wrote: > The shell is the best part of UNIX though. The tools that come > with the shell are great. Just get rid of that horrid directory > structure. (Let's see, is that program in /bin, or was it /usr/bin, > or /usr/local/bin, or....?) Ah, who cares, as long as they're all in the path? Though the GNU Hurd is doing something interesting with filesystem translators.. they can be used to conceptually merge the contents of /bin, /usr/bin, etc., into one directory (/bin) even when the files are stored all over the place.. everything is in /bin. That lets you keep the old Unix organizational structure (I personally don't want 1000 files in my /bin directory) yet always have everything "be in /bin". -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!irz401!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.york.ac.uk!rog From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Multiple Inheritance (Re: NextStep & Mac Frameworks) Date: 5 Feb 1997 14:28:15 GMT Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5da5dv$hld@netty.york.ac.uk> References: <32E78DAF.433F@srsys.com> <5c8j8b$10sg@flood.weeg.uiowa.edu> <5c93h6$3ur@darla.vis <5d2mec$431@darla.visi.com> Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.4) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3:11256 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3960 comp.sys.next.programmer:22435 On 2 Feb 1997 18:29:32 GMT, David Young wrote: > Dave Griffiths (dave@prim.demon.co.uk) wrote: > : You must like typing. One of the worst things about OpenStep is all those > : horrible long method names. And whereas "drawImage" is easy to remember, > : how many times have you forgotten one of those long method names and typed > : (say) "withScaleFactor" instead of "withFloatingPointScaleFactor"? > > Five seconds of typing is better than a minute of looking stuff up. > > "drawImage" may be easy to remeber, but what parameters it takes sometimes > is not. Draw image that's a bitmap? That's a JPEG? That's a sequence of > drawing commands? With an integer scale factor? Even the class libraries > that make the best use of method overloading don't accept everything as > a parameter, and you wind up looking at the .h (or .java) file anyway > to see what you can send it. since it's an OO language, the parameter types should be evident from the type of the object. if objective C provided decent type checking, and separate namespaces for different objects/protocols, then the compiler could check that the parameters were in fact of the required type. long method names are a hack to get around the criminal lack of namespace control in objective C. and i don't know about anyone else, but i find myself looking up those long method names almost every time i use them (to check on exact phrasing and capitalisation), whereas i usually know what parameters they take. if objects are well designed, then a method name that reflects the action to be taken and not the types that the method takes should be perfectly adequate for self documenting code (and much more robust in the event that the argument type changes) rog. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in1.uu.net!162.62.21.8!adaptec!margaret.trillium.adaptec.com!user From: rang@trillium.adaptec.com (Anton Rang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 12:31:49 -0600 Organization: Trillium Research, an Adaptec company Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: margaret.trillium.adaptec.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22436 comp.sys.mac.system:197399 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3961 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60797 In article <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net>, sdmeyers wrote: > You know it would be extreamly easy to map a GUI on top of UNIX in such a way > that the User will work with it in the same way that they work with the MacOS > today (of course in turn this OS would respond in a much better fashion to the > user). Well, yes and no. While I agree that it's possible to build a decent GUI for *file management* on a UNIX system, there are a lot of operations a user can do on MacOS today which couldn't easily be done in a UNIX environment without major changes. Consider double-clicking a document. How do you know which program to launch? HFS provides the type and creator, which together with the desktop database define both the default application as well as a list of other applications which know how to open the file. Typical UNIX file systems don't have this information available to them, though there are approaches to make it work most of the time (or all the time, if you can enforce a file format with a fixed header). But there are harder cases. Consider dropping a document onto the icon for a currently running application. This should generally open it within the app; but there is no standard way (in a generic UNIX) to communicate this -- there is no equivalent to the AppleEvents which MacOS uses. (The situation is worse when you think about full scriptability.) The Chooser (through its use of NBP) also provides functionality which typical UNIX TCP/IP implementations don't. There's a lot of work to be done to make any modern UNIX as user-friendly as the Mac. (I'm not saying it's impossible; just hard.) As for what Apple may do ... who knows? The Mach kernel certainly provides mechanisms which could be used for AppleEvents and the like; I doubt they would try to promote a new system which didn't include at least as much functionality as the current one (though it may take different approaches). -- Anton #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.seanet.com!news From: misha@berlioz.osd.com (Misha M. Melikov) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Documentation in PB 4.1 Date: 6 Feb 1997 22:00:21 GMT Organization: Seanet Online Services, Seattle WA Lines: 36 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ddk9l$j08@q.seanet.com> References: <32F9FF29.4337@online.disney.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.168.30 After I added things like: #import #import #import to /NextLibrary/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Versions/B/Headers/AppKit.h everything started to work, strangely enough... What could be wrong? -m In article <32F9FF29.4337@online.disney.com> Joseph Panico writes: > Misha M. Melikov wrote: > > > > For some reason I can only see AppKit and Foundation documentation in > > ProjectBuilder 4.1. All other frameworks do not get indexed and > > documentation can not be seen. > > You are not alone. Strangely enough, after a couple days of use, *some* > of the EOF documentation started showing, though I didn't change any > settings at all. Perhaps it just has to "warm up" a bit ;). > > > -m > > -- > Joe Panico > Disney Online > jpanico@online.disney.com -- ___________________________________________________________ Misha M. Melikov Seanet Corporation Columbia Seafirst Center 701 Fifth Ave., Suite 6801 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 6 Feb 1997 23:23:50 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 170 Message-ID: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22438 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60802 comp.sys.mac.system:197405 Here's an excerpt from one UseNet reader's response to a post of mine about Unix and the NeXT-generation Mac OS: > John, there's always something to be hidden. Always. The reason you > like dealing with, say, the Mac filesystem is because it hides forks > to the extent that most users don't know they're there. If users had > to know that there's a section of every file holding things like the > creator application, then they'd scream. Instead, it's made (mostly) > transparent. What makes an environment good or bad is based in the > choices of what is hidden and what isn't. > Keep in mind [...] that there's nothing about forks that can't > be handled through structured directories/folders. Forks are little > more than a backend file system detail, which can be hidden from the > user as easily as, say, inodes. This brings up what I think is one of the most important aspects of the Mac/NeXT transition, and OS design in general: the file system. What I think is at the root of Unix's unsuitability for duty as a Mac OS underpinning is the nature of it's "stream of data" file system. A large percentage of the Mac's past and present ease of use advantage is a result of its somewhat strange multi-forked file system. The reply above seems to imply that there is no conceptual difference between having a resource fork and having a folder full of separate files for each application. I challenge that implication, going so far as to claim that it is the Mac's multi-forked file system that has separated it from other OSes. I'll look at this issue in three parts: 1. Hiding directories isn't the same as "hidden" resource forks. Let me make this point as succinctly as I can: files and directories are things that the user deals with. File forks are not. Any mechanism, no matter how pervasive and consistent, that hides whole directory trees is less desirable than a file structure that makes large directory trees unnecessary because files and directories are by their nature things that the user expects to have control over. Yes, I know the Mac has a few invisible files and folders. These are exceptions that prove the rule. This point is open to personal preference, but it is my opinion that vast majority of Mac users (most of whom aren't reading and posting to comp.sys.xxx.programmer, BTW) want things to work the way they do now, only faster and more stable. Again, this is just my opinion. 2. File count! I don't think there's anyone who would want *more* files related to their OS littering their hard drive. Back in the olden days, the Mac OS ("System", dammit! ;) consisted of a System file, a Finder application file, some DAs, and a smattering of printer drivers. As Mac developers started to discover the world of INITs, the System Folder became more crowded. System 7 and later 7.1 separated the System Folder into a single level of sub- folders, alleviating most of the clutter. Of course, there are exceptions. (The soup of "OpenTsprtAppleTalkLib" files spring to mind, although they reflects more on the 68k/PPC duality of the platform than any OS constraints.) To gain some perspective, however, let's contrast the Mac System Folder with the horror of the \WINDOWS and \SYSTEM directories of Windows 95 or 3.1. And then, of course, there's Unix, the king of the many-tentacled directory structure. But why is this a bad, thing? After all, if the directory structure is standardized, who cares how complex it is? Well, as I see it, there are many problems with even the most standardized and structured maze of directories. First, there's the problem of locating relevant information. If, as a user *or* a programmer, I want to, say, swap my file browser with another, newer version, on a Mac I'd simply replace the Finder application with a new one (this is a somewhat fictional example given how 7.x now works, but this type of thing may happen in a future Mac OS release. Humor me.) Doing the same thing in windows or Unix would not be a task for the faint of heart, simply because you'd first have to locate and remove every file associated with your file browser and replace them with the new versions. Yes, installers could attempt to handle this, but we all know how reliable they are. The reason for this disparity stems from the Mac's ability to shove all related resources into one executable. Due to both historic practices and their respective OS philosophies, Unix, Windows, and friends instead scatter related resources all over the file system (they'd *like* you to think all their files are in a single folder), thus making it nearly impossible to "wrap your mind around" every file associated with a single application, let alone the whole OS or your whole hard drive. This is something I personally consider a *huge* advantage of the Mac OS philosophy (if not the current implementation of it): the file system allows me to have a pretty accurate picture in my mind of *every* file on my hard drive, even though there are over 7000 files on my gigabyte hard drive. This piece of mind is nearly impossible on any other system. The counter-argument that remote administration of a large group of machines is only possible with a standardized directory structure has been dealt with before, and I won't go into it again. Suffice it to say that there are plenty of examples of successfully administered networks of "non-standard" Macs out there, possibly because of the advantages described above. As a final addition to the "application replacement" example, let me point out that in all likelihood, your non-Mac application has modified files that don't belong to it, adding to the difficulty of removing it completely from your system. Which brings me to... 2. Text configuration files Also known as: the bane of "modern" OS design. There is absolutely *no* excuse for text-based configuration files in a modern GUI operating system. Yes, they're oh-so-easy to edit from a CLI. Yes, they're readable by every lowly text editor. But cripes! When you start providing API calls to add and delete lines from a text file (GetProfileString(), etc.) you *know* you're barking up the wrong tree! I don't think there's anyone who would deny that messing with lines of text is more error prone even in the best conditions (i.e. no user modification of the file with a text editor to munge it up) simply because each text files are so free-form. There are no constraints of design to keep a badly behaved application from munging up a shared configuration file. In this scenario, it's easy to see why there'd be API calls! It minimizes the possibility of programmer error. But that's just treating the symptoms! An example relevant to Rhapsody (see, there *is* a connection buried here ;) is how TCP/IP will be handled in the new OS. Ignoring the ancient and ugly roots of the current Mac OS on which it runs, I'd take the Open Transport control panels (Modem, TCP/IP, AppleTalk, PPP) over a slew of .conf text files any day! I routinely switch between FreePPP, OT/PPP, and direct ethernet connection with a few flips of switches in control panels on my Mac. Try that with a Unix box. If you decide you want to change from a direct connection to PPP, you'd better hope you have the config files all set up, and hopefully some shell scripts to moves everything around for you. Oh, and you'd better not have changed the location of any of the files that the scripts refer to. And speaking of moving files, another disadvantage of text configuration files is the hard-coding of file paths. Even Unix symlinks are an example of the limitations of this scheme, although not directly related to text config files. Say what you want about the performance trade-offs of keeping track of aliases, but it's certainly a better system than the "I'm scared to move anything because everything might break" world of .INI files, et al. As far as I'm concerned, a *modern* OS should be the best of both worlds: the superb functionality of a preemptive memory-protected kernel and the interface of the Mac (along with a file system that allows it, of course!) Conclusion: Even the much-vaunted BeOS seems to suffer from file proliferation a la Unix (/dev/modem anyone?) Perhaps this is unavoidable and I'm being naive. After all, the *only* example of an OS that doesn't work this way is the now-ancient Mac OS. But I don't thing there's any reason to resign ourselves to the "me-too" world of evil OSes that require "Uninstallers" and that keep us captive of a bazillion fragile text files. There's a better way, and I only hope that in the coming years the people behind the Mac/NeXT OS aren't afraid to break from the past and give us an OS we can be proud to call "Mac." -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Date: 6 Feb 1997 23:32:49 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22439 comp.sys.mac.system:197408 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60803 William Edward Woody (woody@alumni.caltech.edu) wrote: : In article <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: : > Let me say it more simply: as much as you and I find perverse : > joy in the nooks and crannies of a Unix world: : > : > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** : > : > and that's all there is to it. And guess what, there are about : > 19 million more "Mac users" than there are "techies who like : > Macs but secretly wish they could grep sometimes." : First, take a deep breath, and relax. The sky isn't really falling, : as much as it seems like it. Yeah, I was a bit riled up after reading that huge thread. I'm more calm now ;) (see my new post about the whole file system issue) : Second, let me note that I was also concerned with the idea of having : a Unix kernel underlying the MacOS--as soon as such a thing hit the : shelves it wouldn't be long before someone did 'tsh', at which point, : we may as well have simply exposed people to the shell. It's not the kernel that bothers me. The Mach kernel is certainly suitable, although the Apple-striped part of me wishes I could see NuKernel with it's plug-in extensibility. : But get this: Mach is *NOT* Unix. Mach has been used to build a Unix : compatable OS, and most people tend to build off of a Unix client : built on top of the Mach kernel because that's what most of us : programmers are familiar with. Granted, kernel and system calls are fine. What I'm concerned about most is the support even simple Unix-isms like shell scripts require in order to work. IMO, this support system is not worth the small advantages that a few advanced users will receive because it constrains the rest of the OS too much. : But ultimately, using the Mach kernel does not mean the Macintosh will : operate as a layer on top of Unix. Instead, it means Apple will more : likely create various OS "servers" which service operating system calls : in the same way the Unix server operates. In fact, I suspect both : the "yellow box" and the "blue box" are really just Mach servers : providing different operating system personalities. As I stated in my original post, a POSIX subsystem is fine. A Unix directory tree appearing on my hard drive after a standard install is not. -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:29:02 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 81 Message-ID: <0myB5iy00iWY461F04@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22440 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3964 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60807 comp.sys.mac.system:197419 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 5-Feb-97 Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all.. by John Siracusa@bu.edu > Jeez, I just read that 200+ post thread in c.s.next.programmer > about "ripping Unix out" of NeXTSTEP. I really don't think that > Apple is going to end up with "Unix with a GUI on top" at the > end of their Rhapsody development. Care to make a bet on this? A gentlemen's bet for Usenet brownie points would be fine, but I'd be happy to put my money where my mouth is. (Email me privately if that is the case.) > Now I know most NeXT users love Unix. The majority of NeXT users don't know any Unix at all, and are often surprised to learn that NEXTSTEP is based on top of BSD Unix. > I know it's fun to tar -cf - Papers | rsh pooh tar -xf - instead of > using Apple file sharing, but the plain fact is: that has never been > a part of the Mac OS experience. You're absolutely right. MacOS has been based solely around GUI solutions for every task, and the lack of a CLI is one of the major weaknesses of the MacOS because it prevents knowledgable users from using the CLI as an alternative which is sometimes superior for some tasks. Regardless of whether Apple recognized their weak points, or whether they were simply lucky, they did purchase NeXT and NeXT's technology. And Apple is in the midst of discovering just what that means and just how fortunate their choice was. Rhapsody will provide a replacement operating system for the MacOS which should be better for both traditional Mac users and for new categories of users. > There are millions of Macs out ther, and the common thread > among them is that they don't require that type of thing! They > run Photoshop, Electric Image, PageMaker, and WordPerfect. > They *don't* run xdmcp, biod, rcp, emacs, vi, gcc, ld, troff, > and mv. You're absolutely right. The typical NEXTSTEP user never runs the CLI utilities you've listed, either. If you don't want to, you will never, ever have to use the CLI under NEXTSTEP for the tasks that normal users perform. > Further, you CANNOT hope to get the current millions of Mac > users to replace their OS with an OS that acts like Unix! You're absolutely right. Fortunately, NEXTSTEP doesn't act like any other Unix I've used. > And believe me, no matter how much you "hide" the unix, it'll > never be "like a Mac" to those millions of users. You've obviously never used NEXTSTEP, or else you would have seen for yourself that you really can hide the Unix. Most people who have used both NEXTSTEP and MacOS think that NEXTSTEP has a Mac-like interface that's actually better than the Mac's. > On a Mac, icons do not "represent" or "point to" or "indicate" > your files. They *ARE* your files. That icon *IS* your disk > drive. That just isn't going to happen in the world of Unix. Try using NEXTSTEP-- it already happened years ago. > And why *should* Apple keep *any* vestiges of Unix? This has already been extensively debated. Go look up some of my previous articles via http://www.dejanews.com. [ ... ] -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 13:49:25 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 87 Message-ID: <5daknl$4j7@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22441 comp.sys.mac.system:197420 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3965 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60808 In article <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > Further, you CANNOT hope to get the current millions of Mac > users to replace their OS with an OS that acts like Unix! No one is going to try. NEXTSTEP doesn't act like Unix. > And believe me, no matter how much you "hide" the unix, it'll > never be "like a Mac" to those millions of users. Wrong. The NEXTSTEP UI could be modified to behave just like a Mac from a user's point of view. (Of course, the API's would be different.) Let a Mac user use a NEXTSTEP system for an extended period of time. Don't tell them it's Unix. I bet they never figure it out, unless they go hunting through the documentation or run Terminal.app. > On a Mac, icons do not "represent" or "point to" or "indicate" > your files. They *ARE* your files. That icon *IS* your disk > drive. The icon "points" to the file in exactly the same way that a file icon in NEXTSTEP does. It's a bitmap which the OS knows about, and if you have a double-click event within that region, the OS looks gets a pointer/inode/file ID/whatever to the file, and opens it. > That just isn't going to happen in the world of Unix. Already been done. > And why *should* Apple keep *any* vestiges of Unix? Because Unix is an asset to a lot of people, and because they would have to spend time _removing_ Unix. There's nothing to gain from removing all the Unix utilities (except a little disk space), and something to lose. > All they > have to do is use a modern kernel with a modern API. Everything > else is an implemntation. Add a POSIX sublayer, if you want. > But there will be none of this /usr/bin foolishness. A huge > Unix tree of libraries and executables is simply not revelant in > an operating system that uses a MetroWerks development > environment and a Finder-like program for file manipulation. A lot of NEXTSTEP admin tools use Unix utilities. They would all have to be rewritten, often reproducing nontrivial functionality. There really is little reason to blow away /usr/bin, when the whole thing is 9 megs, and there are a number of users who might actually want to use something in it. Maybe if Apple is really concerned about disk space they'll make /usr/bin an optional install, but I doubt they'd nuke it completely. Heck, a lot of NeXT's developers use the utilities in there. > You want Unix? Buy MkLinux! You want Unix in Rhapsody? Write > your own mini-Unix on top of the POSIX subsystem. That's ludicrous. We already _have_ Unix in Rhapsody. There's no reason to take it out and annoy the people who want it, when leaving it in makes no difference to the people who don't. > Recompile tcsh, mv, rm, cp, and friends, and away you go! Well, I'm suspecting that Apple may remove gcc from Rhapsody.. > But there's no reason a SANE Apple would compromise it's 12 year > old operating system and UI philosophy to keep it in its next- > generation OS! "Compromise"?? Tell me exactly how NEXTSTEP compromises the Mac operating system and UI philosophy. Have you actually used NEXTSTEP? > Yes, it may be in there initially. But you can bet your > booty that they'll remove it as soon asn they get the chance. I'm not betting my booty. > Let me say it more simply: as much as you and I find perverse > joy in the nooks and crannies of a Unix world: > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** Boy, it's really amusing then that that's what they'll be getting. 99% of them will never even know it's Unix. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: OpenStep: Some questions Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 17:54:21 -0500 Organization: SoftArc Inc. Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186658 comp.sys.next.programmer:22442 I've been reading over the (sadly poorly formatted on my machine) OpenStep docs for a couple of hours now. While I won't pretend to understand a lot of it yet, I do have a few prelim questions: a) How big can text be? It doesn't really say. The Mac has a 32k limit (grumble) and all the OOPS libs out there are based on it. I hope there's no limit in OS? Having the picture embedding system in the standard text method will be helpful too. The implementation strikes me as being either hackish or brilliant, but either way it's good to see. b) How about making a spreadsheet view? Does NSMatrix support large "sheets" with arbitrary data types? The documents seem to imply that it doesn't. Does it support line-by-line or row-by-row selections? Again I don't see this. c) Is it just me or will the colour picking protocols make ColorSync a farily natural extension to the system? d) Is there _no_ document subsystem at all? I don't see anything obvious and this is rather scarry! How do you do document like things? Is it all up to you? For instance, I noticed that the text stuff has it's own read and write code, is it like this for everything? e) How does one implement custom text filters? For instance, what if I want to trap out TABs or something like that? The stuff in the FoundationKit looks moderately complete, although I haven't compared it to PowerPlant yet. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep: Some questions Date: 06 Feb 1997 17:58:48 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5ddv6g$81v@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186676 comp.sys.next.programmer:22443 don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) writes: > > c) Is it just me or will the colour picking protocols make ColorSync a > > farily natural extension to the system? > > I would say you're right. The addition of Pantone a while back, > for the user, was a "minor" change and didn't impact the interface > much at all--other than making every app on the machine understand > Pantone, that is--and there's no reason any other color model or > system couldn't be added just as easily. :-) Also, doesn't the OpenStep API already try to make a division between device and calibrated color spaces? I'd imagine that ColorSync could help with that immensely... -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!142.77.1.4!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:23:16 -0500 Organization: SoftArc Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22444 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186679 comp.sys.mac.system:197439 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56672 In article <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org>, Pohl Longsine wrote: > Wouldn't it be easier to teach the computer about how people > program than to teach the programmer how to jump through quirky > hoops in the toolbox? Point taken and all, but the user community outnumbers the developer community a bit (like 100 to 1). That has to be taken into consideration. Maury #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.207.165.222!smash.gatech.edu!cc.gatech.edu!fire.cc.gatech.edu!user From: mpinkert@cc.gatech.edu (Mike Pinkerton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:26:30 -0500 Organization: Georgia Tech Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: fire.cc.gatech.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22445 comp.sys.mac.system:197443 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3968 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60821 In article , geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) wrote: >Actually I think Apple copied drag and drop from NeXT. It was certainly >implemented in NEXTSTEP first. Macintosh applications are only now getting >the interapplication level of drag and drop that NeXT has had since day >one. Very true. When I first saw a Next box waaaaay back, I saw the drag and drop integration and flexibility and I said, "Now THIS is what the Mac needs." When Apple finally gave it to us in System 7.5, I was overjoyed and it was the first thing I showed to all my PeeCee and UNIX friends. -- Mike Pinkerton mpinkert@cc.gatech.edu http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~mpinkert Cyberdog: On the Internet, no one knows you're an OpenDoc part #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 13:50:19 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 40 Message-ID: <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22446 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186686 comp.sys.mac.system:197444 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56676 Tim Streater wrote: > (Travis Butler) wrote: > > > This is the antithesis of the personal computer movement, and > > it's the exact opposite of everything the Mac has stood for. I > > don't know if you paid much attention to the early Mac market, > > or Apple's early advertising -- but I still remember an early > > Mac demo, and the speech-synthesis application that went with > > it: "Wouldn't it be easier to teach computers about people, > > rather than teaching people about computers?" That philosophy > > is one of the things that's kept me loyal to the Mac, > > Sad, isn't it, that some people still don't get this. Nerds are > frightened by this philosophy, though. Somebody has to stand up for the geeks, here. Apple's philosophy here was correct, but they dropped the ball and forgot to apply the same philosophy to the parts of the computer that are exposed to the programmer. Wouldn't it be easier to teach the computer about how people program than to teach the programmer how to jump through quirky hoops in the toolbox? NeXT took this philosophy from Apple and extended it so that it was not singularly focused on making life easier for the user. They decided that life should be better for the programmer, too, so that there could be better & more software (per unit programmer hour) for the users to buy. Make life better for *everybody* that has to interact with the machine, not just the user! (duh.) That philosophy is one of the things that's kept me loyal to NeXT. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!nntp.earthlink.net!cust71.max3.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net!user From: phetsy@earthlink.net (Phetsy Calderon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 18:00:41 -0800 Organization: NightStar Macintosh Consulting Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust71.max3.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22447 comp.sys.mac.system:197447 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3969 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60823 In article <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > In article , > Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for Mac? Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files. I believe it's in the Utilities folder, but if you haven't already, just download the file. Path is /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. Search this file to find MacGREP's location. Phetsy Calderon phetsy@earthlink.net =========================================== The NightStar Company Macintosh consulting * Internet tutoring * Mac troubleshooting Voice/fax: 510/371-0445 Post: 4043 Guilford Ave., Livermore, CA 94550-5007 =========================================== #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 7 Feb 1997 02:36:59 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22448 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60825 comp.sys.mac.system:197448 As a follow up to my own post, let me just add this: File name extensions as the OS-wide method of file type recognition: JUST SAY NO I could post a whole other rant on why the file extension concept should be thrown in the same bin as punch cards, but I'll leave it at that for now... -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 00:50:15 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5ddu87$oba$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5ddh2o$fh1@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22449 comp.sys.mac.system:197459 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3971 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60828 In <5ddh2o$fh1@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Nathan M. Urban wrote: > In article , connelly@dawnstar.darc.org (Paul Connelly) wrote: > > > The shell is the best part of UNIX though. The tools that come > > with the shell are great. Just get rid of that horrid directory > > structure. (Let's see, is that program in /bin, or was it /usr/bin, > > or /usr/local/bin, or....?) > > Ah, who cares, as long as they're all in the path? > > Though the GNU Hurd is doing something interesting with filesystem > translators.. they can be used to conceptually merge the contents of > /bin, /usr/bin, etc., into one directory (/bin) even when the files are > stored all over the place.. everything is in /bin. That lets you keep > the old Unix organizational structure (I personally don't want 1000 > files in my /bin directory) yet always have everything "be in /bin". > Sounds similar to the Plan 9 solution.. which is to put mounts into user space. You don't have a path, you just mount what you want to in to /bin ;-) -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 18:58:52 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 154 Message-ID: <5dal9c$bd1$3@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: macintsh@bu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22450 comp.sys.mac.system:197472 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3972 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60830 In <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: > Jeez, I just read that 200+ post thread in c.s.next.programmer > about "ripping Unix out" of NeXTSTEP. I really don't think that > Apple is going to end up with "Unix with a GUI on top" at the > end of their Rhapsody development. > > Now I know most NeXT users love Unix. I know it's fun to tar > -cf - Papers | rsh pooh tar -xf - instead of using Apple file > sharing, but the plain fact is: that has never been a part of > the Mac OS experience. Nor is it generally part of the NeXT experience. As _MANY_ people have been telling you here on the groups, you can (and many people have) use Nextstep for years and never ever see anything related to Unix. > There are millions of Macs out ther, and the common thread > among them is that they don't require that type of thing! They > run Photoshop, Electric Image, PageMaker, and WordPerfect. > They *don't* run xdmcp, biod, rcp, emacs, vi, gcc, ld, troff, > and mv. And Nextstepers don't either. (hell, I'm a Unix sys admin, have been for years, and I don't even know what xdmcp IS) They don' t need mv, ld, troff, or a CLI editor to do everyday things. They can drag and drop files to move them, they can use the developers tools for compiling and linking, they can double click a file to load and run it, and they can use the GUI NFSManager.app to export and import file systems (and don't tell me mac users can do this without firing up an appleshare manager). And they can run WordPerfect, Tiffany, and a whole slew of top notch GUI apps that will give any same market Mac app a run for their money ANY DAY. This isn't the X world. > Further, you CANNOT hope to get the current millions of Mac > users to replace their OS with an OS that acts like Unix! > And believe me, no matter how much you "hide" the unix, it'll > never be "like a Mac" to those millions of users. You're right, Nextstep isn't "like a Mac". It's better. The people who brought you the Mac left Apple because Apple wasn't willing to take another risk and make something better.. and those people created NeXT, and created something better. A better polished GUI, with better integration and flexability. A more dynamic environment that is as friendly to developers AND users (novice and advanced) AND administrators as the Mac is to novice users. An environment that scales all the way from a single user standalone box to a distributed server on a hetergenous network. If the Mac could do that, why does Apple sell AIX for it's big end servers? > On a Mac, icons do not "represent" or "point to" or "indicate" > your files. They *ARE* your files. That icon *IS* your disk > drive. That just isn't going to happen in the world of Unix. This isn't windows 3.1 where deleting an icon means you still have the file on the drive and you have to delete it sperately. This isn't Win 95 or OS/2 where there are things on your desktop that have no relation to things in your filesystem. That icon is as tightly bound to a file or disk as your icon on a mac is. And just like on a Mac, not all icons are stored INSIDE the file's dataspace. The Mac does that _more_ than Nextstep, but the fact is the Mac doesn't do that for all files, and Nextstep does have files that store their icons inside one of their data segments. Not only can this happen in the world of Unix, it has been for the last 8 years. > And why *should* Apple keep *any* vestiges of Unix? All they > have to do is use a modern kernel with a modern API. Everything > else is an implemntation. Add a POSIX sublayer, if you want. > But there will be none of this /usr/bin foolishness. A huge > Unix tree of libraries and executables is simply not revelant in > an operating system that uses a MetroWerks development > environment and a Finder-like program for file manipulation. > Hell, even most modern Unix users and admins forego the soup of > two-letter shell-script-invoked untilities for a more > full-featured and reliable tool: perl Or they could rip out the core of Mac OS and run it on top of Unix. YOU would never know the difference. But I bet you'd sit here whining and sniveling about how annoying it would be to you to lose things you wouldn't even know were gone. Which contrasts with the Unix core of Nextstep where the things you want ripped out ARE useful and usable, and ARE important, and are already being sold by Apple on their high end servers (which run AIX, because Mac OS isn't up to the task). And while we're on the subject, compared to NeXT's development tools, Metroworks Codewarrior sucks. It's a static GUI builder (*hurl*) based around static languages and flimsy object wrappers around basically function oriented toolbox calls. The only way to get uglier is to use "Visual *". If Metroworks wants to jump in to the Rhapsody development environment that's great.. but if Apple drops Interface Builder and Project Builder, they're idiots. > You want Unix? Buy MkLinux! You want Unix in Rhapsody? Write > your own mini-Unix on top of the POSIX subsystem. Recompile > tcsh, mv, rm, cp, and friends, and away you go! Hell, I've got > a full Unix user environment on my SE/30 via MacMint, an > implementation of an Atari Unix, of all things. Filename > completion, command-line magic, perl, the works. There's no > reason a suitably insane person couldn't add this to his Mac. You're right.. And they did. It's called Mach Ten. And it's horribly slow, has no security to anyone at the console, and while usable, is barely acceptable, and your precious Mac OS is at fault for all of Mach Ten's short comings.. because as an _OS_, Mac OS sucks (Great GUI, crappy OS). Nextstep, on what has become a standard level of desktop computing power, is fast for both the CLI and GUI user, because it has a better infrastructure (which is guess what -- UNIX) and a better design that scales well. > But there's no reason a SANE Apple would compromise it's 12 year > old operating system and UI philosophy to keep it in its next- > generation OS! There's no reason a SANE Apple would continue on its current trend of clinging to a 12 year old OS that while it is only a few years more archaic than Win95, has no capacity for growth, nor their lack of growth and innovation philosophy that has become the Apple stagnation for the last several years. A Unix and Mach core at least has capability and infrastructure for a dynamic and growing environment. > Yes, it may be in there initially. But you can bet your > booty that they'll remove it as soon asn they get the chance. I'm willing to bet that by the time most people have a year of experience with something like Nextstep, they'll look at people like you for the ludite weirdos you are. > Don't get me wrong. Although I've owned a Mac since the 128k, > I'm an avid Unix user. Unix was the first platform I programmed > for, and I use it every day. But my Mac is my Mac. If I wanted > an OS on my desk at home in which I could cp my .cshrc to ~blee > I would be running Linux. > > Let me say it more simply: as much as you and I find perverse > joy in the nooks and crannies of a Unix world: > > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** Tell that to the thousands of Nextstepers who came here from the Mac world. > and that's all there is to it. And guess what, there are about > 19 million more "Mac users" than there are "techies who like > Macs but secretly wish they could grep sometimes." Yeah, and how fast is your 19 million user Mac community shrinking because the OS is now behind the competition, and the GUI isn't that far ahead anymore? -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 14:45:21 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 70 Message-ID: <32F8E351.24E0@subsequent.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22451 comp.sys.mac.system:197473 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3973 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60831 Anton Rang wrote: > > In article <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net>, sdmeyers wrote: > > You know it would be extreamly easy to map a GUI on top of UNIX in such a way > > that the User will work with it in the same way that they work with the MacOS > > today (of course in turn this OS would respond in a much better fashion to the > > user). > > Well, yes and no. While I agree that it's possible to build a decent > GUI for *file management* on a UNIX system, there are a lot of operations > a user can do on MacOS today which couldn't easily be done in a UNIX > environment without major changes. Nope. > Consider double-clicking a document. How do you know which program to > launch? HFS provides the type and creator, which together with the > desktop database define both the default application as well as a list of > other applications which know how to open the file. Typical UNIX file > systems don't have this information available to them, though there are > approaches to make it work most of the time (or all the time, if you can > enforce a file format with a fixed header). NeXTSTEP supports this, but using extensions. Before you panic, it's not brain-dead DOS extensions. For instance, a typical NeXTSTEP filename is something like "oracle database.eomodel" or "project schema.diagram2" Files under NeXTSTEP don't carry creator information. This wouldn't make sense in a multi-user environment like NeXTSTEP. Instead, each user selects a preferred application for opening files with a certain extension. Alternate applications can be set as the default very easily. Drag & drop also works - you can drop a file on another app to open it with that app. If you have no application that opens a file, it opens in a text editor (Edit.app). > But there are harder cases. Consider dropping a document onto the icon > for a currently running application. This should generally open it within > the app; but there is no standard way (in a generic UNIX) to communicate > this -- there is no equivalent to the AppleEvents which MacOS uses. (The > situation is worse when you think about full scriptability.) NeXTSTEP uses Distributed Objects to do this. The Workspace sends a DO message to the Application object in the application, passing the name of the document. Applications can publish objects with which you can communicate. > The Chooser (through its use of NBP) also provides functionality which > typical UNIX TCP/IP implementations don't. There's a lot of work to be > done to make any modern UNIX as user-friendly as the Mac. (I'm not saying > it's impossible; just hard.) It's been done. I used to work at a company with offices around the world. When you print a document under NeXTSTEP, the print panel lets you choose a printer. I could have printed the document on the other side of the planet. With a nice, friendly GUI. > As for what Apple may do ... who knows? The Mach kernel certainly > provides mechanisms which could be used for AppleEvents and the like; I > doubt they would try to promote a new system which didn't include at least > as much functionality as the current one (though it may take different > approaches). You should try to find a NeXTSTEP machine. Real estate agents say that 'buyers have no imagination'. The same appears true of computer users. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep: Some questions Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 19:43:22 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 52 Message-ID: <32FA7AAA.4263@subsequent.com> References: Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186709 comp.sys.next.programmer:22452 Maury Markowitz wrote: > > I've been reading over the (sadly poorly formatted on my machine) > OpenStep docs for a couple of hours now. While I won't pretend to > understand a lot of it yet, I do have a few prelim questions: > > a) How big can text be? It doesn't really say. The Mac has a 32k limit > (grumble) and all the OOPS libs out there are based on it. I hope there's > no limit in OS? No limit that I know of, except perhaps RAM & disk space. > Having the picture embedding system in the standard text method will be > helpful too. The implementation strikes me as being either hackish or > brilliant, but either way it's good to see. > > b) How about making a spreadsheet view? Does NSMatrix support large > "sheets" with arbitrary data types? The documents seem to imply that it > doesn't. Does it support line-by-line or row-by-row selections? Again I > don't see this. I don't know if it's in the OpenStep spec, or included with OpenStep, but in EOF NeXT has a class called NXTableView which does this sort of thing. > c) Is it just me or will the colour picking protocols make ColorSync a > farily natural extension to the system? Should, yes. > d) Is there _no_ document subsystem at all? I don't see anything obvious > and this is rather scarry! How do you do document like things? Is it all > up to you? For instance, I noticed that the text stuff has it's own read > and write code, is it like this for everything? I'm not entirely sure what you mean here. Do you mean reading and writing data? There's no OpenStep document class, but there might be one in MiscKit. A lot of NeXT-application documents are saved as archived objects. Under OpenStep, you'd use NSArchiver to do this. You end up with an NSData object which can be written to disk. The reverse process is handled too, of course. > e) How does one implement custom text filters? For instance, what if I > want to trap out TABs or something like that? Take a look at NSString, NSScanner, and NSCharacterSet in FoundationKit. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.iquest.net!not-for-mail From: sdmeyers Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 09:35:16 -0500 Organization: IQuest Internet, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: macmin.mcp.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: sdmeyers X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) X-Priority: Normal Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22453 comp.sys.mac.system:197482 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3975 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60834 John Siracusa wrote: > Let me say it more simply: as much as you and I find perverse > joy in the nooks and crannies of a Unix world: > > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** > > and that's all there is to it. And guess what, there are about > 19 million more "Mac users" than there are "techies who like > Macs but secretly wish they could grep sometimes." > > -----------------+---------------------------------------- > John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to > macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow John... You know it would be extreamly easy to map a GUI on top of UNIX in such a way that the User will work with it in the same way that they work with the MacOS today (of course in turn this OS would respond in a much better fashion to the user). I would compare it somewhat to Win 95, but that would understate the fact that a scalable Unix based OS would best Win 95/NT in almost every catagory. ON the other hand removing this capability from this OS would be like removing the carmel nuggut from a Snickers(tm) bar, and that would not only be stupid, but it would suck too. -sdmeyers #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.unimelb.EDU.AU!news From: Raul Sobon Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 15:40:01 +1100 Organization: BMU Lines: 33 Message-ID: <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: a.sobon@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au NNTP-Posting-Host: lightfoot.bmu.unimelb.edu.au Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22454 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60835 comp.sys.mac.system:197484 John Siracusa wrote: [rm -rf lotsofstuff] > 2. Text configuration files > I don't think there's anyone who would deny that messing with lines of > text is more error prone even in the best conditions (i.e. no user > modification of the file with a text editor to munge it up) simply > because each text files are so free-form. There are no constraints of > design to keep a badly behaved application from munging up a shared > configuration file. In this scenario, it's easy to see why there'd be > API calls! It minimizes the possibility of programmer error. But > that's just treating the symptoms! And ohh how wonderfull the Win95/NT solution of registry is... its NOT TEXT, but its binary.. and only regedit can edit it.. and IF IT GETS CURRUPTED as it often gets.. BOOM YOUR WIN95 is dead!!! and NOTHING but a clean install will fix it. How great non text config files work...NOT! text or not.. its all data to a program. Humans can read text and not binary like below... struct data { long *val; long flags; char filename[255]; }; -RAul #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 6 Feb 1997 19:42:42 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 167 Message-ID: <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22455 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60838 comp.sys.mac.system:197489 In article <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > I challenge that implication, going so far as to claim that it is > the Mac's multi-forked file system that has separated it from other > OSes. One wonders if that's a good thing. One of the largest problems with the Mac filesystem is that it's a huge pain trying to transfer files to other platforms in a meaningful way. > 1. Hiding directories isn't the same as "hidden" resource forks. > Let me make this point as succinctly as I can: files and directories > are things that the user deals with. File forks are not. Any > mechanism, no matter how pervasive and consistent, that hides whole > directory trees is less desirable than a file structure that makes > large directory trees unnecessary because files and directories are by > their nature things that the user expects to have control over. NEXTSTEP uses document wrappers instead of file forks, which are directories which are treated like files. If the directory acts exactly like a file when the user manipulates it, then for all intents and purposes, it IS a file. (It still looks like a directory from the Unix CLI, though, which is also a good thing.. if you're working on the command-line, then you want a non-graphical way of getting at the contents of a document. Most Mac users will never touch the CLI, anyway.) > 2. File count! > I don't think there's anyone who would want *more* files related to > their OS littering their hard drive. I would -- if they're useful, of course! (I'm not sure what you're aiming at here, though.. directories like /bin, /usr/bin, etc. which would be "hidden" in the File Viewer, or the wrappers which replace file forks in documents and applications.) > Back in the > olden days, the Mac OS ("System", dammit! ;) consisted of a System > file, a Finder application file, some DAs, and a smattering of printer > drivers. As Mac developers started to discover the > world of INITs, the System Folder became more crowded. System 7 and > later 7.1 separated the System Folder into a single level of sub- > folders, alleviating most of the clutter. Of course, there are > exceptions. NEXTSTEP's filesystem is rather well-organized.. except for the native Unix stuff, but that's hardly important to worry about as it will be hidden. None of the "dump everything in C:\WINDOWS" nightmare.. > But why is this a bad, thing? After all, if the directory structure is > standardized, who cares how complex it is? Well, as I see it, there are > many problems with even the most standardized and structured maze of > directories. > First, there's the problem of locating relevant information. Umm, face it. Things have to be stored on hard disks. They need to go somewhere. You can dump everything in one big file, or have lots of little files. > If, as a > user *or* a programmer, I want to, say, swap my file browser with > another, newer version, on a Mac I'd simply replace the Finder > application with a new one (this is a somewhat fictional example given > how 7.x now works, but this type of thing may happen in a future Mac OS > release. Humor me.) Doing the same thing in windows or Unix would not > be a task for the faint of heart, simply because you'd first have to > locate and remove every file associated with your file browser and > replace them with the new versions. You apparently have no idea how NEXTSTEP works. All the files that are associated with an application live inside the app wrapper bundle. If you move that, everything goes along for the ride. (Except your Preferences and any personal extension bundles you have installed.. those go in your home directory since they only apply to you, not to every user who users the application.) > Yes, installers could attempt to > handle this, but we all know how reliable they are. Quite reliable under NEXTSTEP, actually. There is a standardized package format which stores the location of everything installed in a Receipt file. > The reason for this disparity stems from the Mac's ability to shove all > related resources into one executable. Due to both historic practices > and their respective OS philosophies, Unix, Windows, and friends > instead scatter related resources all over the file system (they'd > *like* you to think all their files are in a single folder), NEXTSTEP does not. All the related resources ARE in a single folder, the app wrapper, which actually looks like a file to the user. > 2. Text configuration files > Also known as: the bane of "modern" OS design. I like them. > There is absolutely > *no* excuse for text-based configuration files in a modern GUI > operating system. Yes, they're oh-so-easy to edit from a CLI. Yes, > they're readable by every lowly text editor. But cripes! When you > start providing API calls to add and delete lines from a text file > (GetProfileString(), etc.) you *know* you're barking up the wrong > tree! It's not too bad. Anyway, NEXTSTEP uses the NetInfo database for most configuration stuff.. though it also tends to manipulate config files to make the Unix people happy. > I don't think there's anyone who would deny that messing with lines of > text is more error prone even in the best conditions (i.e. no user > modification of the file with a text editor to munge it up) simply > because each text files are so free-form. There are no constraints of > design to keep a badly behaved application from munging up a shared > configuration file. Agreed. I've always thought it would be neat to use the GNU Hurd's filesystem translators to fix this.. keep everything in a database, and have a file translator sitting on top of the config file, so that when you read the file it really queries the database and then prints out the text file in the appropriate format from the result.. then things that expect the text config files can still use them, but you can start transitioning configuration over towards a cleaner database design. > An example relevant to Rhapsody (see, there *is* a connection buried > here ;) is how TCP/IP will be handled in the new OS. Ignoring the > ancient and ugly roots of the current Mac OS on which it runs, I'd > take the Open Transport control panels (Modem, TCP/IP, AppleTalk, > PPP) over a slew of .conf text files any day! I routinely switch > between FreePPP, OT/PPP, and direct ethernet connection with a few > flips of switches in control panels on my Mac. Try that with a Unix > box. If you decide you want to change from a direct connection to > PPP, you'd better hope you have the config files all set up, and > hopefully some shell scripts to moves everything around for you. Oh, > and you'd better not have changed the location of any of the files > that the scripts refer to. NeXT's admin tools do a good job of manipulating the config files. You never have to touch most of them yourselves. (Apple is working on changing that "most" to "all".) As for changing the location of the configuration files, I have no idea why you would do that. > And speaking of moving files, another disadvantage of text > configuration files is the hard-coding of file paths. Even Unix > symlinks are an example of the limitations of this scheme, although > not directly related to text config files. Say what you want about > the performance trade-offs of keeping track of aliases, Okay, I will. The performance trade-offs are awful. > but it's > certainly a better system than the "I'm scared to move anything > because everything might break" world of .INI files, et al. That's why NEXTSTEP tends to keep associated files in wrappers. I really think you ought to learn more about how NEXTSTEP (_NOT_ your plain vanilla Unix) does things before you go around spreading FUD. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 6 Feb 1997 19:45:30 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5ddtva$u31@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22456 comp.sys.mac.system:197490 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60840 In article <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > What I'm concerned about > most is the support even simple Unix-isms like shell scripts require > in order to work. What do you mean by "support ... require[d] to work"? > IMO, this support system is not worth the small > advantages that a few advanced users will receive because it constrains > the rest of the OS too much. How does that "constrain the rest of the OS"??? > As I stated in my original post, a POSIX subsystem is fine. A Unix > directory tree appearing on my hard drive after a standard install is > not. I don't understand why not, considering that it doesn't take up that much more disk space, allows you to run any Unix programs you may wish to run in the future, is required by the OS to boot and do other administrative things, and doesn't even need to be seen by you. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.coli.uni-sb.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: Re: PPP Help!!! Anyone? Followup-To: comp.sys.next.sysadmin Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 10:19:05 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32F8B2F9.54E682D1@screaming.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:56698 comp.sys.next.hardware:27066 comp.sys.next.misc:24992 comp.sys.next.programmer:22457 comp.sys.next.software:27912 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25235 Andrew Kim wrote: > Is there any one can tell me how to set up PPP for OpenStep 4.0 > (040 Black) by step by step instruction? I'd like to point out here that it's really bad form to crosspost support questions to all of the comp.sys.next.* groups. Be more selective, please. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: cancel <32F8F46E.634219C7@screaming.org> Control: cancel <32F8F46E.634219C7@screaming.org> Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:32:21 -0600 Organization: WaveFront Communications, Inc. Lines: 1 Message-ID: <32F8FC65.78DD2258@screaming.org> References: <32F8F46E.634219C7@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) This message was cancelled from within Mozilla. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep: Some questions Date: 7 Feb 1997 01:06:24 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 82 Message-ID: <5ddv6g$81v@news.xmission.com> References: Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186740 comp.sys.next.programmer:22458 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > a) How big can text be? It doesn't really say. The Mac has a 32k limit > (grumble) and all the OOPS libs out there are based on it. I hope there's > no limit in OS? You mean the NSText object I presume; both it and the NSString will dynamically grow to be as big as you need them to be. I've loaded multi-megabyte files into the text object and it seems to handle them quite well. (And the only performance degradation for loading a large file is the time it takes to load it; scrolling and editing are the same speed as for small files.) > Having the picture embedding system in the standard text method will be > helpful too. The implementation strikes me as being either hackish or > brilliant, but either way it's good to see. The idea of your Text object being extensible by composition is really quite elegant--and very powerful. This is one of the many patterns detailed in the GOF patterns book. > b) How about making a spreadsheet view? This is a "hole" iun the environment and should be added. The matrix is just a widget to hole a bunch of cells, but doesn't really work with multiple cells together. The NSTableView is a closer approximation to that, but still isn't quite what you want, I suspect. The answer is to write your own and donate it to the MiscKit or wait until somebody else does. (Or wait for the MiscKit idea to be assimilate by the core environment, which it usually will--eventually. :-) ) > c) Is it just me or will the colour picking protocols make ColorSync a > farily natural extension to the system? I would say you're right. The addition of Pantone a while back, for the user, was a "minor" change and didn't impact the interface much at all--other than making every app on the machine understand Pantone, that is--and there's no reason any other color model or system couldn't be added just as easily. :-) > d) Is there _no_ document subsystem at all? I don't see anything obvious > and this is rather scarry! How do you do document like things? Is it all > up to you? For instance, I noticed that the text stuff has it's own read > and write code, is it like this for everything? Here is a definite case for "use the MiscKit". We've built a flexible architecture for handling multiple documents. It still needs a lot of work (IMHO) but it is usable. This has long been a flaw in NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP--but my answer to that is to plug the hole and then give everyone else access to my "stopper" via the MiscKit...so far that's worked pretty well. :-) > e) How does one implement custom text filters? For instance, what if I > want to trap out TABs or something like that? That's beyond the scope of a USENET posting. It can be done--I recommend looking at example code on the ftp archives or on an OPENSTEP system (what you're missing with web docs is all the megs of example code that comes with the developer release. It is an invaluable tool to see how to put things together to get something you can actually use. The general ref is helpful, but it really doesn't give the "big picture"--the best way to get that is still via looking at source code, IMHO. A good opportunity for a book, as I see it. (There are several books out there that do this with varying degress of success, but I still think there's room for more books on the topic. :-) ) > The stuff in the FoundationKit looks moderately complete, although I > haven't compared it to PowerPlant yet. Yeah, there's a lot there. But there are some things missing from the OPENSTEP spec like files, etc. (some of which are in NeXT's OPENSTEP, but not in Sun's--let's hope they get added to the spec!). -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Date: Wed, 05 Feb 1997 15:38:36 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 26 Message-ID: <32F8FDDC.27EDF2C9@screaming.org> References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <32F8E47B.1FCFFD97@screaming.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22459 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186743 comp.sys.mac.system:197507 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56702 Maury Markowitz wrote: > Pohl Longsine wrote: > > > Wouldn't it be easier to teach the computer about how people > > program than to teach the programmer how to jump through quirky > > hoops in the toolbox? > > Point taken and all, but the user community outnumbers the > developer community a bit (like 100 to 1). That has to be taken > into consideration. It should be taken into consideration in the following way: the minority produces every application that the majority uses. Apple, apparently, didn't see this in time or they wouldn't have felt the need to acquire NeXT. Apple's philosophy was myopically focused on the 100, and their religion was intentionally disrespectful to the one: The Evil Hacker Priesthood. NeXT chose a non-divisive philosophy that respected both, and Apple seems to appreciate the results. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.structured.net!news.teleport.com!ip-salem3-30.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 22:23:19 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dal9c$bd1$3@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem3-30.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22460 comp.sys.mac.system:197508 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3979 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60846 In article <5dal9c$bd1$3@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: >You're right, Nextstep isn't "like a Mac". It's better. The people who >brought you the Mac left Apple because Apple wasn't willing to take another >risk and make something better.. and those people created NeXT, and created >something better. Hmm, I wasn't aware that "Reality Distortion Field.app" shipped with NEXTSTEP. :-) -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. Microsoft is not the answer. Microsoft is the question, the answer is no. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 01:19:41 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22461 comp.sys.mac.system:197511 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3980 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60847 In article , Paul Connelly wrote: >In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >> Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. > >The shell is the best part of UNIX though. The tools that come >with the shell are great. Just get rid of that horrid directory >structure. (Let's see, is that program in /bin, or was it /usr/bin, >or /usr/local/bin, or....?) Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for Mac? I may or may not have a document about Schrdinger that I'd like to look up. But I have no idea where it might be, and I'm sure it would be buried in file with a bunch of other stuff, and the name would have no relation to the subject. And I don't know where to get it from an outside source. I've made a few requests but got no response. I know, bad filing system. It wasn't designed, it evolved haphazardly whenever I found something new I wanted to keep. And I haven't had the gumption to start reading through everything on my hard drive. With a nice Unix command line, I could find out once and for all in about ten seconds' worth of typing. find and grep make information searches fun and easy. The search time is immaterial since I'd let it run while I read the Usenet. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 7 Feb 1997 00:44:00 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 164 Message-ID: <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: macintsh@bu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22462 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60848 comp.sys.mac.system:197512 In <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: > This brings up what I think is one of the most important aspects of > the Mac/NeXT transition, and OS design in general: the file system. > > What I think is at the root of Unix's unsuitability for duty as a Mac > OS underpinning is the nature of it's "stream of data" file system. A > large percentage of the Mac's past and present ease of use advantage is > a result of its somewhat strange multi-forked file system. The reply > above seems to imply that there is no conceptual difference between > having a resource fork and having a folder full of separate files for > each application. > > I challenge that implication, going so far as to claim that it is > the Mac's multi-forked file system that has separated it from other > OSes. I'll look at this issue in three parts: > > 1. Hiding directories isn't the same as "hidden" resource forks. > > Let me make this point as succinctly as I can: files and directories > are things that the user deals with. File forks are not. Any > mechanism, no matter how pervasive and consistent, that hides whole > directory trees is less desirable than a file structure that makes > large directory trees unnecessary because files and directories are by > their nature things that the user expects to have control over. Yes, I > know the Mac has a few invisible files and folders. These are > exceptions that prove the rule. This point is open to personal > preference, but it is my opinion that vast majority of Mac users (most > of whom aren't reading and posting to comp.sys.xxx.programmer, BTW) > want things to work the way they do now, only faster and more stable. > Again, this is just my opinion. > Ohgod.. do we have to go through this AGAIN!? We already hashed this one out with Maury. NeXT used to have a 1 file mechanism for multi-segment binaries. The Mach-o file format was conceptually like resource forks, but with more forks. There was the Icon segment, a segment for each architecture's executable (all in one file), etc etc etc. More flexible than Resource Forks. But NeXT moved on from that becuase it is less flexible than Wrappers. By opening the file into multiple files that _can_ be accessed by advanced users, you can change sections of the code without any fancy tools. Things like UI elements, and optional Language localization features (which Gil Amelio has already said he wants to take advantage of). To the GUI user, a Wrapper looks EXACTLY like a file, except that it's executable. The only difference is to the CLI user (which you probably wont be anyway). The fact that folders and Wrappers are both implimented with the same file system element is just that.. an IMPLIMENTATION DETAIL. It does not change the user experience ONE BIT, unless you become advanced enough to appreciate the dynamic configurability and extensability of Wrappers (you could, for example, make a business of just adding multi-language support to apps that don't have it.. and you wouldn't need to have access to any special code from teh application vendor.. just the normal installed application -- because the wrapper is extensible, dynamic and HIERARCHICAL). > > 2. Text configuration files > > Also known as: the bane of "modern" OS design. There is absolutely > *no* excuse for text-based configuration files in a modern GUI > operating system. Yes, they're oh-so-easy to edit from a CLI. Yes, > they're readable by every lowly text editor. But cripes! When you > start providing API calls to add and delete lines from a text file > (GetProfileString(), etc.) you *know* you're barking up the wrong > tree! > > I don't think there's anyone who would deny that messing with lines of > text is more error prone even in the best conditions (i.e. no user > modification of the file with a text editor to munge it up) simply > because each text files are so free-form. There are no constraints of > design to keep a badly behaved application from munging up a shared > configuration file. In this scenario, it's easy to see why there'd be > API calls! It minimizes the possibility of programmer error. But > that's just treating the symptoms! > I will be the first to deny this. Any application can trash any unprotected config file no matter what format it is in. And binary config files are no less error prone to novice users. In fact, they may be more so, as the person fires up a text editor to edit the binary one the first time, and accidently trashes it. API calls can be just as easily implimented to do text based config files as binary ones. There are advantages to binary config files, and to text config files. You have touched on none of the real advantages nor disadvantages of either. Try again. And, by the way, NeXT's system administration model, NetInfo, uses a binary database. Stop your whining and go use a NeXT system before you keep going on and on about how bad its' going to be. > An example relevant to Rhapsody (see, there *is* a connection buried > here ;) is how TCP/IP will be handled in the new OS. Ignoring the > ancient and ugly roots of the current Mac OS on which it runs, I'd > take the Open Transport control panels (Modem, TCP/IP, AppleTalk, > PPP) over a slew of .conf text files any day! I routinely switch > between FreePPP, OT/PPP, and direct ethernet connection with a few > flips of switches in control panels on my Mac. Try that with a Unix > box. If you decide you want to change from a direct connection to > PPP, you'd better hope you have the config files all set up, and > hopefully some shell scripts to moves everything around for you. Oh, > and you'd better not have changed the location of any of the files > that the scripts refer to. > I don't need to switch anything to do that on my Unix box. And it wouldnt' matter if it was NeXtstep or not. In fact, unlike you and your Mac, I can have PPP and ethernet going at the same time. But, generally, I can fire up PPP or close it down with one double click. That's it. I don't need to flip any control switches, change between system configurations, etc.. Unix is smart enough to know what aspects of your system are dialup networking configs and which are local networking configs. Without special add ons, Mac's can only use one network interface at a time. > And speaking of moving files, another disadvantage of text > configuration files is the hard-coding of file paths. Even Unix > symlinks are an example of the limitations of this scheme, although > not directly related to text config files. Say what you want about > the performance trade-offs of keeping track of aliases, but it's > certainly a better system than the "I'm scared to move anything > because everything might break" world of .INI files, et al. > Which is another reason to use Wrappers. Everything the application needs is in the wrapper or the system libraries. > As far as I'm concerned, a *modern* OS should be the best of both > worlds: the superb functionality of a preemptive memory-protected > kernel and the interface of the Mac (along with a file system that > allows it, of course!) > Correct.. the best of both worlds, the most solid OS core and foundations, the most usable UI, the most flexable and capable programming model. In otherwords, Nextstep. > Conclusion: > > Even the much-vaunted BeOS seems to suffer from file proliferation a la > Unix (/dev/modem anyone?) Perhaps this is unavoidable and I'm being > naive. After all, the *only* example of an OS that doesn't work this > way is the now-ancient Mac OS. But I don't thing there's any reason to > resign ourselves to the "me-too" world of evil OSes that require > "Uninstallers" and that keep us captive of a bazillion fragile text > files. There's a better way, and I only hope that in the coming years > the people behind the Mac/NeXT OS aren't afraid to break from the past > and give us an OS we can be proud to call "Mac." > Or proud to move on to the next generation of the Mac, invented by the same major visionaries of the Mac project.. called "The NeXT Computer". Obviously Apple finnaly realized that Jobs was right with the changes he wanted to make the Mac, and are now going to incorporate them. Now, before you go though these rants again, go out and use the damn thing. Stop arguing from a stance of total ignorance. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!gtnduss1.du.gtn.com!news.knipp.de!object-factory.com!usenet From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT Semaphores? help... Date: 5 Feb 1997 11:26:38 GMT Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany) Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5d9qpe$mam@leonie.object-factory.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: wintermute.object-factory.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) "Scott W. Bradley" wrote: > I have a program that compiles on various other flavores of unix > that uses system semaphores. It does not compile on nextstep though. > I get things like "key_t" undefined. Alos, I can't even locate a header > file that I usually use called . I can't seem to find > procedures like semget(). Can anybody please give any advice on how > to get this to work? > Help greatly appreciated > -scott Hi Scott, natively, NeXT does not have semaphores, shared memory etc. What you are looking for could be: ftp://ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de/pub/NeXT/misc/unix/commercial/SysVIPC-3.4.N IHS.b.tar.gz which is a commercial implementation of shared memory. Although it is a commercial product you should be able to produce binaries (which underly certain restrictions, then) -dirk --- ______________________________________________________________________ Dirk Olmes OBJECT FACTORY Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0 Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99 dirk@object-factory.com http://www.object-factory.com/ Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 06 Feb 1997 17:43:51 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 132 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22464 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60852 comp.sys.mac.system:197526 macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: > Here's an excerpt from one UseNet reader's response to a post of mine > about Unix and the NeXT-generation Mac OS: Note: This was a mail note that I sent to John. There, I've taken credit for it. :-) I also apologize in advance to everyone who's already gone through this with Maury. It's not clear that this is going to break any new ground, so you may just want to add this thread to the killfile now... That said, on with the show... [...] > 1. Hiding directories isn't the same as "hidden" resource forks. > > Let me make this point as succinctly as I can: files and directories > are things that the user deals with. File forks are not. John appears to have completely missed my point. Files and directories are *not* things the user deals with. They are things that exist on the file system. The user may play with representations of them, but the user doesn't have to deal with them any more than he has to know what an inode is. If I'm working on a NeXT box, I can see an application in the directory tree. In the GUI, I can move it into another folder, drag it to another drive, drop it in the recycler, or double-click it to fire it up. In all these actions, it works exactly the same as a similar application would on a Mac. I have no knowledge that the application is a single file on the Mac and a directory tree on the NeXT. It doesn't matter. It's an implementation detail, nothing more. > [...] it is my opinion that vast majority of Mac users [...] want > things to work the way they do now, only faster and more stable. I agree completely. That doesn't mean that they want to know everything about the file system, or that they want forks in their files. It means that they want to see files, and folders, and their trash can, and have the GUI actions that they're used to do the same thing as always. Try to separate how things are implemented at the file system level from how the user will deal with them. > 2. File count! [...] > The reason for this disparity stems from the Mac's ability to shove all > related resources into one executable. Due to both historic practices > and their respective OS philosophies, Unix, Windows, and friends > instead scatter related resources all over the file system (they'd > *like* you to think all their files are in a single folder), thus > making it nearly impossible to "wrap your mind around" every file > associated with a single application, let alone the whole OS or your > whole hard drive. The entire point of NeXT-style app wrappers is that you collect all the files associated with the application into one directory. Everything that you put under `related resources' goes right into the app wrapper. Your unsupported straw man arguments aside, if you can't drag the application into your recycler and have it *all* go away, it's not a well-designed NeXT-style application. You're not saying that the NeXT way is bad because of what NeXT is like, you're saying it's bad because of the way applications work in every other brand of Unix. I'll grant you that they're vastly different, but let's argue about the real situation rather than 1970s technology. > 2. Text configuration files (2? I thought we were on 3 :-) > Also known as: the bane of "modern" OS design. There is absolutely > *no* excuse for text-based configuration files in a modern GUI > operating system. Yes, they're oh-so-easy to edit from a CLI. Yes, > they're readable by every lowly text editor. But cripes! When you > start providing API calls to add and delete lines from a text file > (GetProfileString(), etc.) you *know* you're barking up the wrong > tree! How so? If you stored all the information in a binary file, and provided the same API calls, would that somehow magically be better? Have you thought this argument out before committing it to the ether? If the information you're configuring is text-based, I don't see where it makes much difference. What you seem to want to argue is that config files should be forced to be under application control rather than user control, especially since your next argument... > [...] There are no constraints of design to keep a badly behaved > application from munging up a shared configuration file. ...is completely off the wall. If the application is badly behaved, it can screw up the file no matter how it's organized. Plus, just because it's text-based doesn't mean it can't have design constraints. > [...] I routinely switch between FreePPP, OT/PPP, and direct > ethernet connection with a few flips of switches in control panels > on my Mac. Try that with a Unix box. If you decide you want to > change from a direct connection to PPP, you'd better hope you have > the config files all set up, and hopefully some shell scripts to > moves everything around for you. That's odd, I thought I had that ability already on my NeXT at home. I didn't even have to worry about switching off my TCP/IP connection, either -- I can just click PPP and it adds in the network interface on the fly. > And speaking of moving files, another disadvantage of text > configuration files is the hard-coding of file paths. I can embed a file path just as easily in a binary config file. Again, what you want is for the configuration file to be under the control of the application, and ideally designed so that it stays with the application at all times. Hence, the app wrapper. > As far as I'm concerned, a *modern* OS should be the best of both > worlds: the superb functionality of a preemptive memory-protected > kernel and the interface of the Mac (along with a file system that > allows it, of course!) I have that on my NeXT. You have yet to say what it is about the *NeXT* way of doing things that is so horrendous. Since that way of doing things is probably what we're going to end up with, it would be good to hear about the problems with it. I haven't seen you talk about that yet, though. You told me in email that you'd used a NeXT, but you haven't given any examples. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!irz401!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!solaris.cc.vt.edu!news.seanet.com!news From: misha@berlioz.osd.com (Misha M. Melikov) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Documentation in PB 4.1 Date: 5 Feb 1997 21:19:57 GMT Organization: Seanet Online Services, Seattle WA Lines: 6 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5datht$547@q.seanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.181.168.30 For some reason I can only see AppKit and Foundation documentation in ProjectBuilder 4.1. All other frameworks do not get indexed and documentation can not be seen. Any thoughts? Should I be able to see any other documentation or is it too much to ask? -m #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!idiom.com!news.zocalo.net!news From: Jim Gagnon Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: PDO and hooking in an ORB Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 15:09:11 -0800 Organization: Abacus Concepts, Inc. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <32FA645B.2C4A@abacus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 157.22.237.237 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) I'm in the process of learning OpenStep and am having problems in finding documentation on how to take an existing ORB and tie it into PDO so that it can successfully interoperate with other ORBs. If I can tie our application's object engine in with PDO, I can port all non-GUI code over in one fell swoop and focus on creating a new user interface for it. Any advice would be welcome. Thanks! #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!sun4nl!cwi.nl!stes From: stes@cwi.nl (David Stes) Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Message-ID: Sender: news@cwi.nl (The Daily Dross) Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus.cwi.nl Organization: CWI, Amsterdam References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> Distribution: comp Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:06:31 GMT Lines: 41 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5227 comp.sys.next.programmer:22467 In article shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >it, while still retaining the speed. Driesen describes means of >packing rows or columns together to make a single array that's smaller >than the matrix was. Note that all the exisiting OC runtimes use some form of hashtable to do the look-up. I suspect that's the "packed matrix". >Then method dispatch becomes something like: > > id objc_msgSend( id self, SEL _cmd, ...) { > IMP imp; > imp=impTable[ selectorTable[ _cmd]+self->isa->classNumber]; > return builtin_apply( imp, self, _cmd, ...); In the Portable Object Compiler, there's a single hashtable which basically gets an "imp" with a formula such as you describe. See the "objcrt" file, it's really just 60 lines of code for the entire Objective C runtime... (other runtimes sometimes have a table / class). The builtin-apply is actually something that C provides. If "imp" is a function pointer, (*imp)(...) will be application on the arguments. However, the compiler can emit a _cast_ before dereferencing the function pointer. This ability to cast before dereferencing, allows you to pass structs, or return structs etc. For example, the implementation of |perform:with:| goes like, - perform:(SEL)aSelector with:anObject { IMP imp = _imp(self,aSelector); return (*(id(*)(id,SEL,id))imp)(self,aSelector,anObject); } So it's first casting from function taking only two arguments (IMP) to function with three arguments and returning "id", and then it's dereferencing _that_ function pointer, and applying it on the 3 args. David. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!wong!iano From: Ian Russell Ollmann Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 00:46:31 -0800 Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: Ian Russell Ollmann NNTP-Posting-Host: wong.scripps.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: iano@wong cc: connelly@news.ziplink.net, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu In-Reply-To: <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22468 comp.sys.mac.system:197552 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3982 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60861 On 7 Feb 1997, Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > In article , > Phetsy Calderon wrote: > >In article <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > > > >> In article , > > > >> Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for Mac? > > > >Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you > >guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files. I believe it's in the Utilities > >folder, but if you haven't already, just download the > >file. Path is /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. Search this file to > >find MacGREP's location. > > That sounds great. Except I'm not really sure what to do with that path. > I tried putting an "ftp:" in front of it, but Netscape says the connection > was refused. There are a whole series of info-mac mirror sites. The parent site is at sumex-aim.stanford.edu. Easier ones to get into are mirrors.aol.com and mirrors.apple.com. (e.g. ftp://mirrors.apple.com/mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/_Info-Mac_Help/) However, there are probably at least 20 such sites and maybe 50 or more. Unfortunately, (at the Apple site at least) MacGrep is either gone or called something else. There are two potentially grep related files, whose URL's are shown below. Hope that helps. ftp://mirrors.apple.com/mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/dev/card/grep-replace-xfcn.hqx ftp://mirrors.apple.com/mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/text/egrep.hqx Frankly, on the Apple, I find that if it is a specific text file, MS word or any of a half dozen word processors and text editors work fine enough for me. If you need to find a file with a particular word in it, but don't know which file it is, you can either wait for a Vtwin enabled finder under Rhapsody, if not Tempo or Allegro, or you could download TurboFind (http://www.moreinfo.com.au/access/TurboFind.html) today. Ian Ollmann #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep: Some questions Date: 7 Feb 1997 04:22:01 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 67 Message-ID: <5deal9$1uc@news.digifix.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186811 comp.sys.next.programmer:22469 On 02/06/97, Maury Markowitz wrote: > I've been reading over the (sadly poorly formatted on my machine) >OpenStep docs for a couple of hours now. While I won't pretend to >understand a lot of it yet, I do have a few prelim questions: > >a) How big can text be? It doesn't really say. The Mac has a 32k limit >(grumble) and all the OOPS libs out there are based on it. I hope there's >no limit in OS? > I've loaded huge 5Mb files into the OpenStep TextEdit example. No problem. > Having the picture embedding system in the standard text method will be >helpful too. The implementation strikes me as being either hackish or >brilliant, but either way it's good to see. > >b) How about making a spreadsheet view? Does NSMatrix support large >"sheets" with arbitrary data types? The documents seem to imply that it >doesn't. Does it support line-by-line or row-by-row selections? Again I >don't see this. > Don't look at NSMatrix. Look at NSTableView. >c) Is it just me or will the colour picking protocols make ColorSync a >farily natural extension to the system? > Yep. Someone at Next has already mentioned this. >d) Is there _no_ document subsystem at all? I don't see anything obvious >and this is rather scarry! How do you do document like things? Is it all >up to you? For instance, I noticed that the text stuff has it's own read >and write code, is it like this for everything? There is no Document handling stuff in the Frameworks. There are several examples with OpenStep that implement documents, but nothing that is formally accepted as the 'way to do it'. Having said that, once you have a good working Documents.framework, its easy to re-use it where you need to. > >e) How does one implement custom text filters? For instance, what if I >want to trap out TABs or something like that? The new Text object is pretty complete, and a huge improvement on what the old Text object was. I've not had a chance to work with it at any length yet though... :-( > > The stuff in the FoundationKit looks moderately complete, although I >haven't compared it to PowerPlant yet. > -- Scott Anguish DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS sanguish@digifix.com Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 02:25:46 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32FAD8FA.2C40@subsequent.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22470 comp.sys.mac.system:197585 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60878 John Siracusa wrote: > > William Edward Woody (woody@alumni.caltech.edu) wrote: > : But get this: Mach is *NOT* Unix. Mach has been used to build a Unix > : compatable OS, and most people tend to build off of a Unix client > : built on top of the Mach kernel because that's what most of us > : programmers are familiar with. > > Granted, kernel and system calls are fine. What I'm concerned about > most is the support even simple Unix-isms like shell scripts require > in order to work. IMO, this support system is not worth the small > advantages that a few advanced users will receive because it constrains > the rest of the OS too much. How, exactly, does it 'constrain the rest of the OS too much'? How, exactly, has it constrained NeXTSTEP? -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!wdcpop.dra.net!news.dra.com!news-out.internetmci.com!news.internetMCI.com!not-for-mail From: rdogra@mailserv.metro.mci.com (Rajnish Dogra) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Tutorial Question Date: 5 Feb 1997 12:42:38 GMT Organization: Internet MCI Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5d9v7u$bb8$1@news-le0.internetmci.com> References: <5d8j5q$he2@bignews.shef.ac.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tsabin.metro.mci.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) "Mark Jenkins" wrote: > >-----------------------------------------------Converter.m---------- -------------------------------- >#import "Converter.h" > >@implementation Converter > >- (float)convertAmount:(float)amt: byRate: (float)rate You put a colon after amt which is not correct in the above method. It should be like the following: - (float)convertAmount:(float)amt byRate: (float)rate Rajnish Dogra NeXTStep Developer #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!news.tue.nl!usenet From: tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 07 Feb 1997 10:05:11 +0100 Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology Lines: 28 Sender: tiggr@tom.ics.ele.tue.nl Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tom.ics.ele.tue.nl In-reply-to: stes@cwi.nl's message of Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:06:31 GMT CC: stes@cwi.nl X-Newsreader: (ding) Gnus v0.99.18 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5229 comp.sys.next.programmer:22472 In article stes@cwi.nl (David Stes) writes: Note that all the exisiting OC runtimes use some form of hashtable to do the look-up. I suspect that's the "packed matrix". The GNU Objective-C runtime uses per-class sparse arrays, indexed on selector id. The builtin-apply is actually something that C provides. If "imp" is a function pointer, (*imp)(...) will be application on the arguments. The __builtin_apply Scott refers to is GNU's. Though extremely low-level and machine dependent, it allows one to invoke any function with any number of arguments. For a good example on the use of __builtin_apply and __builtin_return, look at the implementation of the perform method in TOM (http://tom.ics.ele.tue.nl:8080), which is declared such: dynamic perform selector sel with dynamic arguments; It allows one to say things like: a = [obj perform some_sel with (1, 3.14, "a string")]; (a, b) = [obj perform sel2 with void]; (with a, b, obj, some_sel, and sel2 of an appropriate type). --Tiggr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!wong!iano From: Ian Russell Ollmann Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:16:42 -0800 Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA Lines: 59 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: wong.scripps.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: iano@wong To: Paul Connelly In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22473 comp.sys.mac.system:197593 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3984 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60881 On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Paul Connelly wrote: > In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > > > Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. > > The shell is the best part of UNIX though. The tools that come > with the shell are great. Just get rid of that horrid directory > structure. (Let's see, is that program in /bin, or was it /usr/bin, > or /usr/local/bin, or....?) Ah, but why not just include them all in your path? Why, just look at the one I use .... . /usr/sbin /usr/bsd /sbin /usr/bin /bin /usr/bin/X11 /usr/biosym/950/biosym_bin /usr/biosym/950/irix5r3/biosym_exe /usr/pub /home/iano/bin/sgi /usr/etc /usr/lib /etc /usr/ucb /tsri/mb/net/news/sgi/bin /tsri/mb/gnu/sgi/bin /tsri/mb/soft/bin/sgi /tsri/mb/misc/bin/bin.sgi /tsri/mb/grafx/bin/bin.sgi /home/iano/bin/sgitest /tsri/gnu/sgi4DIRIX5/lib That gets just about everything. Of course, it changes if I log into another flavor of unix box. How about sun... . /usr/ucb /bin /usr/bin . /bin /usr/bin /usr/pub /home/iano/bin/sun4 /usr/etc /usr/lib /etc /usr/ucb /usr/openwin/bin /usr/openwin/bin/xview /usr/openwin/demo . /usr/ucb /bin /usr/bin . /bin /usr/bin /usr/pub /home/iano/bin/sun4 /usr/etc /usr/lib /etc /usr/ucb /nfs/crystal/export/asd/prog/XtalView/xtalmgr /nfs/crystal/export/asd/prog/XtalView/xfit /nfs/crystal/export/asd/prog/XtalView/xtty /nfs/crystal/export/asd/prog/sun4 /usr/tran/sun4/bin /usr/lang /usr/local/news/bin /home/iano/bin/sun4test /tsri/mb/net/news/sun4/bin /nfs/mbhost/mb/text/Xframe/bin /nfs/mbhost/mb/text/Xframe/bin/bin.sun4 /tsri/mb/misc/bin/bin.sun4 /tsri/mb/soft/bin/sun4 /tsri/mb/gnu/sun4/bin /tsri/mb/grafx/bin/bin.sun4 well, OK that was just sunOS 4, for sunOS 5 there is another one, and one for the HP's and another for the Convex and one for IRIX 6... Anyway, it is so simple a child could do it. Find out the name of your local sysadmin. If his loginID is ralph, then take the following steps: chmod 755 ~/.cshrc mv ~/.cshrc ~/.cshrc.bak cp ~ralph/.cshrc ~/. That ought to fix your path and if it doesn't, take it up with ralph. In fact, you should probably ask ralph if it causes any other confusing changes, too. Most sysadmins are very capable with questions such as that one in particular. At least, let's hope so. :-) Ian Ollmann #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news.urz.tu-dresden.de!not-for-mail From: Patrick Schulz Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep/Sparc Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 12:43:47 +0100 Organization: Institute of Computer Engineering, CS department, University of Technology Dresden, Germany Lines: 95 Message-ID: <32FB1573.6445@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <32F19278.453B@erols.com> <5d5c30$8uq@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <32FA5C21.3080@cyrix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ite126.inf.tu-dresden.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.sun.misc:27061 comp.sys.next.misc:24995 comp.sys.next.programmer:22474 Hi OpenSteppers, > Openstep on Solaris is VERY slow. You're right. Sun could slightly increase performance in the current beta version, but it's IMHO not enough (compared to my NeXTstation). The bugs you mentioned are solved or in progress, just be a little bit more patient ;-) > There aren't many apps for Openstep solaris. I am sad that OW 2.0 isn't > available as I'm not too happy with some things of netscape. Agree, and IMHO the reason for that is OpenStep itself. Here's what I mean (taken from a letter to the MiscKit people): #OpenStep is promoted as a platform independend standard for a variety of #operating systems. The question is what platform independency means. #For me it's the ability to port a project in a very short time on a different #OS (much less than porting a X11-App). From my understanding an OpenStep #compliant program should be compilable on each OpenStep implementation without #major changes (I'm not talking about OS [processor] dependend code) . # #Since NeXT offers OPENSTEP I see a lot of problems for writing OpenStep #compliant Apps and Libraries. In detail they are: # #- proprietary format for InterfaceBuilder's .nib files (i.e. Sun's IB cannot handle # NeXT .nibs, you have to rebuild the complete interface) #- ClassClusters are not defined in the OpenStep standard, and do not work for # non-NeXT implementations #- all extensions to the OpenStep standard make programs not OpenStep compliant # (almost none of NeXT's AppKit examples can be ported to Solaris OpenStep, because # they're heavily using extensions like the new text system) #- there are still classes in use that remain from the old NeXTSTEP API (even the MiscKit # uses objects like Storage, NXZone, ...) #- the Framework concept and the new projectbuilder options (makefiles) require a # complete reorganization of the project on a different platform # #My results after 2 days hacking: # #- it's almost unprofitable to use the MiscKit2.x for a OpenStep implementation other # than NeXT's OPENSTEP #- the MiscKit is NOT OpenStep compliant including every application that's build upon #- the MiscKit would need significant changes to be portable (i.e. to Sun's OpenStep) #- there is no obvious benefit of the OpenStep standard # #To make OpenStep a really open standard I'd like to see: # #- keep all implementations in sync about extensions to the standard, provide upgrade # packages (free!) to close the gap (since there's a GNU implementation in the works # it's not done with a Sun<->NeXT license agreement) [NeXT's task] #- make the .nib format public and a standard [NeXT's task] #- remove all code using the NeXTSTEP API from your project [all programmers task] #- use STRICT_OPENSTEP as long as extensions are not public [all programmers task] #- separate compliant and non compliant code [all programmers task] # #I'm an OpenStep enthusiast, but I think the situation described above has #to change to be able to compete with other solutions like the Java SDK. > Everyone who sees it says that's neat. Definetely, I've never used a better UI on a Sun (I like to use a mouse :-) > It's OpenStep (looks like NeXTStep, feels like NeXTStep, but slower, > I have a NeXTStep machine...) hope for better times, the NeXT-Apple merger will make OpenStep more public and accepted, a good chance to clean up the portability problems mentioned above. Patrick. -- Patrick Schulz; Alaunstrasse 21a D-01099 Dresden; Germany email: schulz@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de (MIME & NeXTmail welcome) http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~ps3/ - vmunix: panic - no coffee detected, user halted. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:51:44 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk Lines: 23 In article <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: > An example relevant to Rhapsody (see, there *is* a connection buried > here ;) is how TCP/IP will be handled in the new OS. Ignoring the > ancient and ugly roots of the current Mac OS on which it runs, I'd > take the Open Transport control panels (Modem, TCP/IP, AppleTalk, > PPP) over a slew of .conf text files any day! I routinely switch > between FreePPP, OT/PPP, and direct ethernet connection with a few > flips of switches in control panels on my Mac. Try that with a Unix > box. Except that ANY unix will be smart enough to handle multiple interfaces. It will be quite happy to have one or more PPP links installed at teh same time as ether. It tests if the interfaces are valid, and uses them if they're working (including routing bewteen them if approriate). I therefore wouldn't have to do any config switching - it would just work. Not only is it easier to use than your so called easy switching system, its far more powerfull. Try setting up a mixed network of tcpip/appletalk and ether/localtalk/PPP and see how you get on useing your switching mechanism. $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!blackbush.xlink.net!linux1.netconx.de!news From: eb@con.de (Ernst Braun) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Test only Date: 7 Feb 1997 14:11:06 GMT Organization: NetConsult Communications Lines: 1 Message-ID: <5dfd5q$5qv@linux1.netconx.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: braun.con.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) sorry, posted only for test #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!copper.ucs.indiana.edu!glhansen From: Gregory Loren Hansen Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 09:57:04 -0500 Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 64 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 X-Sender: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22477 comp.sys.mac.system:197615 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3985 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60894 On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Ian Russell Ollmann wrote: > > > On 7 Feb 1997, Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > > > In article , > > Phetsy Calderon wrote: > > >In article <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > > >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > > > > > >> In article , > > > > > >> Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for Mac? > > > > > >Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you > > >guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files. I believe it's in the Utilities > > >folder, but if you haven't already, just download the > > >file. Path is /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. Search this file to > > >find MacGREP's location. > > > > That sounds great. Except I'm not really sure what to do with that path. > > I tried putting an "ftp:" in front of it, but Netscape says the connection > > was refused. > > There are a whole series of info-mac mirror sites. The parent site is at > sumex-aim.stanford.edu. Easier ones to get into are mirrors.aol.com and > mirrors.apple.com. (e.g. ftp://mirrors.apple.com/mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/_Info-Mac_Help/) > However, there are probably at least 20 such sites and maybe 50 or more. > > Unfortunately, (at the Apple site at least) MacGrep is either gone or > called something else. There are two potentially grep related files, whose > URL's are shown below. Hope that helps. > > ftp://mirrors.apple.com/mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/dev/card/grep-replace-xfcn.hqx > ftp://mirrors.apple.com/mirrors/Info-Mac.Archive/text/egrep.hqx Okay. I got a bunch of C source code. I'll have to try to make that work. Okay, I got TurboFind. I'm trying it out as I type do you. Looks like exactly the file/string search I wanted. Except I'm searching for "Erwin", and it keeps giving me "insidesendERWINdow) /*" in drag.c. I didn't know I had 30 copies of drag.c, but it went on to puzzleDrag.c and others, so it must be making forward progress. Looks like this one is worth the $10 the author is asking. You know, this seems like just the kind of thing OpenDoc would be good at. I realize OpenDoc has more flexibility than Unix-style streams, but each of the utilities could be a part, and a container app could be just a text command line and text output (with scrolling and printing and things, like SIOUX). That would be very nice. And those parts would also be available for any other OpenDocable app. And maybe a system() call that invokes the CLI container? GNU utilities for OpenDoc? It would all be very nice. AppleEvents scare me away, but I could handle system(). But I suppose there won't be much motivation to work on that kind of project until we see what comes with Rhapsody. Thanks! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!horus.ecmwf.int!syy From: syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 15:30:56 GMT Organization: ECMWF (European Weather Centre) Lines: 33 Message-ID: <5dfhrg$73v@horus.ecmwf.int> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: thrall.ecmwf.int Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22478 comp.sys.mac.system:197616 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3986 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60895 In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) writes: |> In article <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu>, John Siracusa wrote: |> |> > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** |> |> Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. |> |> If Apple put a nice GUI on any Unix, and provided control panels and menus |> to manipulate and administrate the system, you'd never know. You're forgetting the second (or maybe the first) major advantage of MacOS over UNIX: the filesystem. A pretty face can be painted on UNIX, in theory (if not yet in practice), but injecting a robust object-oriented filesystem is another matter entirely. UNIX filesystems typically provide no metadata structures analogous to the MacOS resource forks. BeOS attempts to provide something like this, but I believe it's done with a bolt-on database, not as a native part of the filesystem structure. NeXT may do something similar (I don't know) but again, it's likely to be a bolt-on. Rhapsody must provide all of the human interface correctness of MacOS along with at least as good a filesystem architecture before I'll be interested. -- Mike Connally Consultant, Data Handling Project European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF) Shinfield Park, Reading, Berks RG2 9AX England Tel: +44-1734-499253 Email: Mike.Connally@ecmwf.int #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 16:22:52 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5dfkss$cl1@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22479 comp.sys.mac.system:197640 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3988 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60902 In article , Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: >Okay, I got TurboFind. I'm trying it out as I type do you. Looks like >exactly the file/string search I wanted. Except I'm searching for >"Erwin", and it keeps giving me "insidesendERWINdow) /*" in drag.c. I >didn't know I had 30 copies of drag.c, but it went on to puzzleDrag.c and Okay, now I get it. There were 30 occurences in the file drag.c. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!news.asi.fr!cornut!rflattin From: rflattin@cornut.fr (Roger Flattin) Reply-To: rflattin@cornut.fr Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Distribution: world Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 07 Feb 1997 17:05:06 GMT Message-ID: <2252931071.5809221@cornut.fr> Organization: Cornut Informatique SA Lines: 24 Ian Ollmann wrote: >for me. If you need to find a file with a particular word in it, but don't >know which file it is, you can either wait for a Vtwin enabled finder >under Rhapsody, if not Tempo or Allegro, or you could download TurboFind >(http://www.moreinfo.com.au/access/TurboFind.html) today. To find a file with a particular word you can simply use the Find (Command-F) utility supply with MacOS 7. You just have to click on the popup that contains "name", "size" while the option key is pressed. At this point, some new items appears in the popup. Among them, a "content" item allows you to find by content. This method works fine but the search engine is slow. Roger FLATTIN e-mail: rflattin@cornut.fr ---->> On our site a SHAREWARE SQL Query Tool <<-------- --->> Don't forget to Try also our C/S Dev tool <<------- CORNUT Informatique SA Client/Server & SQL RDBMS BP 702 - 42950 St Etienne cedex 9 http://www.cornut.fr/ France email: info@cornut.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.75.213.193!xenitec!news.uunet.ca!NewsWatcher!user From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep: Some questions Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:31:23 -0500 Organization: SoftArc Inc. Lines: 70 Message-ID: References: <5ddv6g$81v@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230 X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:186966 comp.sys.next.programmer:22481 In article <5ddv6g$81v@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote: > You mean the NSText object I presume; both it and the NSString > will dynamically grow to be as big as you need them to be. I've > loaded multi-megabyte files into the text object and it seems to > handle them quite well. Phew. > (And the only performance degradation for > loading a large file is the time it takes to load it; scrolling > and editing are the same speed as for small files.) Double phew. Is it VM'ed or memory mapped files? > The idea of your Text object being extensible by composition is > really quite elegant--and very powerful. This is one of the many > patterns detailed in the GOF patterns book. Yeah, but it's pictures only and via a "fake char". A robust embedding system like the one from OpenDoc would be a boon. > This is a "hole" iun the environment and should be added. The > matrix is just a widget to hole a bunch of cells, but doesn't > really work with multiple cells together. The NSTableView is > a closer approximation to that, but still isn't quite what you > want, I suspect. The answer is to write your own and donate it > to the MiscKit or wait until somebody else does. (Or wait for > the MiscKit idea to be assimilate by the core environment, which > it usually will--eventually. :-) ) Well I don't think I'm nearly ready to write a production spreadsheet view as of yet, I'm still having trouble with Borland installs... To be more accurate I've seen the growing pains that PowerPlant has gone through in this regard and I'd rather let the dust of more experienced people settle and learn from their mistakes. However, you may wish to consider dropping Andy Dent a note. He was working on a massive extension to the PP Table system, integrating it with documents and his _superb_ OOFile persistant object/database system (now THERE'S some code that should come with Rhapsody!) and some cross fertilization might prove useful. > I would say you're right. The addition of Pantone a while back, > for the user, was a "minor" change and didn't impact the interface > much at all--other than making every app on the machine understand > Pantone, that is--and there's no reason any other color model or > system couldn't be added just as easily. :-) Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The issue appears to be limited entirely to making DPS understand colour correction, because ColorSync actually modified the colour tables of the monitors for correct display, as well as providing a natural "selector". > Here is a definite case for "use the MiscKit". We've built a > flexible architecture for handling multiple documents. It still > needs a lot of work (IMHO) but it is usable. This has long been > a flaw in NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP--but my answer to that is to plug > the hole and then give everyone else access to my "stopper" via > the MiscKit...so far that's worked pretty well. :-) Fair enough. > That's beyond the scope of a USENET posting. It can be done--I > recommend looking at example code on the ftp archives or on an > OPENSTEP system I'd need one first. :-) Maury #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!EU.net!sun4nl!cwi.nl!stes From: stes@cwi.nl (David Stes) Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Message-ID: Sender: news@cwi.nl (The Daily Dross) Nntp-Posting-Host: zeus.cwi.nl Organization: CWI, Amsterdam References: Distribution: comp Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:49:42 GMT Lines: 51 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5231 comp.sys.next.programmer:22482 In article tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers) writes: >In article stes@cwi.nl (David Stes) writes: > > Note that all the exisiting OC runtimes use some form of hashtable to do > the look-up. I suspect that's the "packed matrix". > >The GNU Objective-C runtime uses per-class sparse arrays, indexed on >selector id. And the Portable Object Compiler "objcrt" uses a single "cache", where the "lookup code" is like index = ((aSel^shr) % CACHESIZE); if (clsCache[index] == (id)shr && selCache[index] == aSel && !no_cache) return impCache[index]; > The builtin-apply is actually something that C provides. If "imp" is > a function pointer, (*imp)(...) will be application on the arguments. Note that you have omitted the essential part of the posting, about the function pointer cast, which shows that it is possible to do OC messaging in "pure C" without something like a builtin function to build stackframes. This is an idea of Ken Lerman's (as far as I know), but also discussed in the 2nd edition of Brad Cox' book. The original Stepstone objc's, including the 4.0 from which NeXT's is derived, and hence by extension also GNU's, translates something like [a message:b] into _msg(a,sel,b) /* sel == @selector(message:) */ and the prototype of _msg (or objcMsgSend or whatever) is _msg(id,SEL,...) Key point : the messenger takes the argumnets of the message as arguments (the ... in the prototype) The Portable Object Compiler messenger does NOT take the message arguments, as arguments. [a message:b] translates into 2 statements (actually 1 "comma" statement) (imp=_imp(a,sel), (*(id(*)(id,SEL,id))imp)(a,sel,b)) David. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!feed1.news.erols.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Tom Hageman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT Semaphores? help... Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 01:21:15 +0100 Organization: Warty Wolfs Message-ID: <9702070021.AA04930@basil.icce.rug.nl> Reply-To: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-User: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-Path: obelix.icce.rug.nl!basil.icce.rug.nl!next.mailer X-Authentication-Warning: obelix.icce.rug.nl: uubasil set sender to basil.icce.rug.nl!tom using -f Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.icce.rug.nl/pub/tom/Tom_Hageman@basil.icce.rug.nl.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance X) Lines: 313 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In article <5d9qpe$mam@leonie.object-factory.com>, dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes) wrote: > "Scott W. Bradley" wrote: > > I have a program that compiles on various other flavores of > > unix that uses system semaphores. It does not compile on nextstep > > though. I get things like "key_t" undefined. Alos, I can't > > even locate a header file that I usually use called . > > I can't seem to find procedures like semget(). Can anybody > > please give any advice on how to get this to work? > > Help greatly appreciated > > natively, NeXT does not have semaphores, shared memory etc. What > you are looking for could be: [URL snipped, see below for the "canonical" location.] > > which is a commercial implementation of shared memory. Although > it is a commercial product you should be able to produce binaries > (which underly certain restrictions, then) [...Here speaketh the author of SysVIPC...] Actually, there are no employment restrictions on binaries linked against SysVIPC, and there never has been. Note that we've changed the licensing terms of SysVIPC about a year ago. Here is the revised announcement: - -------- R&A SysVIPC v3.4 FREE FOR EDUCATIONAL USE AND DISTRIBUTED VIA THE NET R&A CHANGES LICENSING CONDITIONS AND DISTRIBUTION SCHEME FOR SysVIPC v3.4 Contact: Info@RnA.nl R&A today announces a change in the licensing conditions of SysVIPC v3.4. In short, these changes are: 1. SysVIPC is from now on distributed via the Internet. The fully functional binary distribution can be found in the directory: ftp://ftp.nl.net/pub/comp/next/SysVIPC/ 2. Use for educational purposes is free. Note that it is 'educational use' and not 'educational users'. If you want to use SysVIPC for commercial activities, you still need a license. Original version 3.4 announcement (with adapted prices) follows: R&A SHIPS Quad-fat SysVIPC V3.4 SHARED MEMORY & SEMPAHORE EMULATION FOR NEXTSTEP FREE UPGRADE FOR EXISTING CUSTOMERS *) Version 3.4, second release A new version due to shipping quad-fat (m68k, i486, hppa, sparc). Prices have changed to Dfl instead of US $. Two bugs have been fixed since pre-3.4 releases. *) Contact Info@RnA.NL for details Version 3.2 Version 3.2 differs from version 3 only with respect to POSIX support. The POSIX implementation and the BSD implementation of the directory functions and structures of NEXTSTEP 3.2 are not binary compatible. Version 3.2 of SysVIPC supports both. Follows: the text of the original Version 3 release with adapted prices R&A announces the shipping of the second release of SysVIPC: version 3. This version maximises the emulation completeness of the implementation within the constraints of security and speed. System V style IPC is used widely on SunOS, Ultrix and most System V Unix implementations for interprocess synchronisation and is not part of the NEXTSTEP developer libraries. Product description: SysVIPC offers NEXTSTEP programmers the possibility to use Unix System V style shared memory and semaphores in their code, thus enhancing portability on one side and easier porting of existing applications that use the Unix System V shared memory and semaphore API. Operating systems that include that API are (besides System V Unix implementations) for instance Digital Corporation's Ultrix 4.x and Sun Microsystem's SunOS 4.x BSD-style Unix implementations. R&A, for instance, used SysVIPC internally for the shared memory and semaphores when porting the University Postgres RDBMS (which is available as a separate product). The implementation does not need any change on the systems where programs created with SysVIPC are executed. Just installing on the developer system is enough. The following library calls are supported: semctl, semget, semop, shmctl, shmget, shmat, shmdt, ftok The following programs are included: ipcs, ipcrm The software license allows copies of the executables of icps and icprm to be shipped with your product. The implementation is as good as 100% complete (sometimes even more than complete). There are a few minor incompatibilities and some extra compatibilities beyond the API on the implementation level. These differences are (implementation level compatibilities are marked with '+', incompatibilities are marked with '-' and remarks are marked with 'o'): + Shmids and semids are system-wide unique -- as most System V-like implementations, including those of Ultrix and SunOS. This means that you can create, for instance, a semaphore set with semget() in one process, scribble the semid obtained by that down, and use it directly in another process to access that same semaphore set. This is important especially when porting programs that use this feature of the common implementations (which appear to be many). For a strict implementation of the API this is not necessary. Code from systems like SCO Unix (where the ids are on a per process basis) is not affected by the added functionality of system-wide id uniqueness. - - You cannot give away a semaphore- or shared-memory id to another user unless you are the super user. A semid or shmid is owned by a single user at a time, just like a file. (on System V it can be owned by the creator and another user.) Not being able to give away has to do with the general possibility on System V to give away things to other users. On System V, for instance, you can give away files. This behaviour is neither part of Mach nor of BSD. Our implementation is not loaded in the kernel, but runs in user space. Therefore, we had to choose between API compatibility and security. We chose to implement the latter, since in most situation this behaviour is not used anyway. Semaphores: - - all semop() and semctl() operations require READ + WRITE access to the semid, even those that according to the documentation only need READ access. This incompatibility is automatically lifted by our implementation for semaphores that are from the same owner. This incompatibility also has to do with our choice for security vs. completeness. In almost all cases developers will not be affected, since mostly semaphore operations are from one and the same user. Shared memory: + a single shmid can be attached multiple times by the same program (to different addresses) -- this is the behaviour of most System V implementations, including those of Ultrix and SunOS, but it is usually not clearly documented. Another beyond-the-API compatibility that is useful for porting existing code. o all shmids require at least READ access in order to be useful - this is also true of System V shmids, but again, is usually not clearly pointed out. - - shmat() and shmdt() cannot update the shmid_ds control structure if the shmid is read-only. Another security vs. API conflict for a user-space implementation. - - the emulation is not aware of processes that do not explicitly detach their shared memory segments before exiting. In short, the `shm_nattch' count may not reflect the actual number of segments attached. This would need some sort of server process, or a kernel implementation. Since we use a user-space implementation, we had to leave out the server for improved speed (and ease of use on the client side). o the shmctl() commands SHM_LOCK and SHM_UNLOCK are currently not implemented -- these are used in other implementations to lock/unlock the shared memory segment in physical memory, i.e., to avoid swapping (for performance?) The API defined behaviour is not affected by ignoring these. They are also impossible to implement in a user-space implementation. Also speed is not really affected by leaving these out. NB: We advise strongly against using the "beyond the API" parts of System V shared memory and semaphores when developing new code. The availablity of this behaviour is not guaranteed on other systems (e.g. SCO Unix), thus diminishing the portability of your code. You might wonder why we did not choose for a kernel-space implementation. Kernel loadable would have to be loaded on every machine that you run your software on. This implies heavy system administration and a big burden for anybody who wants to sell products that use our implementation. The user-space implementation does not have that disadvantage and is also inherently more safe to use. Any error in our implementation (of which we are not aware that there exists one) will not bring down the kernel, but merely a user process. The SysVIPC binary distribution is shipped as MAB (Version 3.4 for Intel 486, Motorola m68k and Hewlett-Packard PA-RISC architectures). Price and ordering information Prices as of 24/2/96 (may change without notice). Prices are in dutch guilders. License cost License Price Edu use 1st CPU binary Dfl 1000 shareware 2nd - 5th CPU binary Dfl 800 shareware 6th - 50th CPU binary Dfl 600 shareware 51th - 100th CPU binary Dfl 400 shareware All other CPU's Dfl 200 shareware Source license 10 times binary NA There is no runtime fee (so in general, just a few licenses are enough for any organisation, just on the developer side, and source licenses are for sites who require source control over as many parts of their product as possible). Note: SysVIPC is shareware for educational 'use', not for educational 'users'. This implies that you can use it for educational uses in commercial environments and you can't use it for commercial purposes in educational environments. Shareware means: we'd like to get money from you but it is not required. Send us money if you really like the package. Prices are without shipping, handling and VAT (Dutch VAT is 17.5%). Customers outside the European Union do not pay VAT. Customers inside the EU do, unless they send us their VAT registration number. Shipping and handling: Destination Shipping The Netherlands Dfl 15 Europe Dfl 20 Rest of the world Dfl 25 How to order Customers in the Netherlands may send a written order. A bill will be enclosed with the shipment. All other customers have to pre pay. No credit cards accepted. The best way to pay is to go to a bank that has access to SWIFT. Customer pays money transfer cost of both sides (which should normally lie around Dfl 15 per side). Bank to send money to: ABM-AMRO Bank Kneuterdijk 8 The Hague The Netherlands Account: 40.16.84.016 R&A Information: what you purchase and where to send it. In general: give as much info as you can. We do accept certified cheques. They should be written out in Dfl. Eurocheques are accepted and there is no payment fee involved. Make sure the Eurocheque is written in Dfl. Packaging SysVIPC comes in an installer package for NEXTSTEP 3.1 or higher on a 3.5" HD floppy disk. The package includes full documentation in the form of Unix man pages, as well as the ipcs and ipcrm programs. Both library and programs are in MAB format for all supported architectures. The source license comes with full sources for library, man pages and programs added to the mentioned binary installer package. Contact R&A Goudreinetstraat 582 2564 PX Den Haag The Netherlands Email: Info@RnA.NL We prefer e-mail. NeXTmail welcome. R&A is a small firm specialized in quality software design and implementation and consultancy. We are specialized in OO, Unix, NEXTSTEP and portability. Acknowledgements Ultrix is a trademark of Digital, SunOS is a trademark of Sun, SCO is a trademark of the Santa Cruz Operation, Unix is a trademark of USL, NEXTSTEP is a trademark of NEXT. All trademarks belong to their respective owners. - -------- end SySVIPC announce -------- Regards, - -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia Charset: next iQCVAwUBMvp1fDHcGwCnCAFpAQEt5wP+P8sLQqZttI8d4riWZ+1u/TaEWwhx7C6k Zbqnj6W1erdQgPkVh/1RKGq7MkVAZ2viRBJxARtLJgTe9rJ5MftrDxUaCdFY816m AlJO55jiYDJzi0V3ObI/9F5txOiPP35p3AZM8QB/HO5z4EX91QXYEqi+Kgv0c2ry sA+67VnSA/w= =P9eL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Date: 7 Feb 97 10:22:33 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-15-13.access.one.net In-reply-to: macintsh@bu.edu's message of 6 Feb 1997 23:32:49 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22484 comp.sys.mac.system:197655 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60913 In article <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: Granted, kernel and system calls are fine. What I'm concerned about most is the support even simple Unix-isms like shell scripts require in order to work. IMO, this support system is not worth the small advantages that a few advanced users will receive because it constrains the rest of the OS too much. The "support issues" would be: o Support for fork()/exec(). Those have to be present in some form or another on _any_ O/S, and fork()/exec() are pretty nice. They are a bit more primitive than many people would like, but there's no reason you couldn't have library functions to hide them. But, while it's possible to build up more complex launch semantics from fork()/exec(), it's almost _impossible_ to emulate fork()/exec() reasonably over anything more complex. o The ability for the kernel to recognize #! as magic when trying to exec() a file. Hmm. How are these constraining things? Of course, there are other support issues. For instance, if you want to support a CLI environment for your power users, you'll need something like a pty driver. And if you want to let remote users telnet into your machine. And a tty driver if you want people to come in via serial ports. Personally, I'd rather these important abstractions are abstracted _once_, by the vendor, rather than 35 times by each individual vendor shipping a connectivity package. The overall thing to keep in mind, here, is that while it's usually quite easy to emulate simpler systems on more complex systems (single-user on a multi-user system, single-tasking on a multi-tasking system, no file protections on a filesystem with protections, no networking on a system with networking), it's often hard unto impossiblity to emulate more complex systems on less complex systems. I'd rather start with an overcapable system and remove/ignore things than start with an incapable system and try to graft new functionality onto it, and ending up with something _nobody_ really cares for. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!mr.net!nntp.earthlink.net!cust113.max3.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net!user From: phetsy@earthlink.net (Phetsy Calderon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 09:19:20 -0800 Organization: NightStar Macintosh Consulting Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: cust113.max3.santa-clara.ca.ms.uu.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22485 comp.sys.mac.system:197656 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3994 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60914 In article <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > In article , > Phetsy Calderon wrote: > >In article <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > >Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you > >guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files.... Path is /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. >Search this file to > >find MacGREP's location. > > That sounds great. Except I'm not really sure what to do with that path. > I tried putting an "ftp:" in front of it, but Netscape says the connection > was refused. Sorry Greg--I have the Info-Mac path so firmly engraved in my brain I forget that normal human beings use brain space to remember dates with their spouses and what to put in their coffee ;-). You need to access an Info-Mac site: I use the mirror in Hawai'i, because it's the 2nd-closest to me, geographically speaking (the main site, Info-Mac at Stanford, is but 50 miles away, but the odds of getting into it are about the same as hitting the lottery). So the path I use is . It looks like you're posting from an Indiana location, so you might want to hit the mirror at U of Iowa. Path is . There's also a Canadian site , and one at Rice University . Phetsy Calderon phetsy@earthlink.net =========================================== The NightStar Company Macintosh consulting * Internet tutoring * Mac troubleshooting Voice/fax: 510/371-0445 Post: 4043 Guilford Ave., Livermore, CA 94550-5007 =========================================== #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 18:33:18 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5dajpe$a63@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: macintsh@bu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22486 comp.sys.mac.system:197658 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3995 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60916 In <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: > Jeez, I just read that 200+ post thread in c.s.next.programmer > about "ripping Unix out" of NeXTSTEP. I really don't think that > Apple is going to end up with "Unix with a GUI on top" at the > end of their Rhapsody development. JEEZ... Have you ever USED NeXTStep. I employ many artists who have been using NeXTstep and Macs happily for years and are not yet aware that NeXT has anything to do with UNIX. Most do not even know that a terminal emulator exists or for what it might be used. These same users do appreciate NFS networking, multiuser machines that let them sit at whichever machine suits them and get work done. They also appreciate the fact that the machines almost never crash. We have several machines that have not been rebooted in almost two years. We have ONE machine that is rebooted every night because of the infamous "SWAP FILE" problem. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!138.220.104.78!news.worldbank.org!usenet From: Stefano Pagiola Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 14:45:21 -0500 Organization: World Bank Lines: 37 Message-ID: <32FB8651.243F@worldbank.org> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: envgcte1.worldbank.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22487 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60917 comp.sys.mac.system:197660 Alan Jenks wrote: > One of the things that makes the Mac a joy to use is that I can create a > file in an application and name it anything I choose. Double click the > file and the application that created it will launch and open it. > > On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After > installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created > files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double > click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others with > Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with either one. > > What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent this > step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? The OS keeps track of all the filetypes an app can deal with. Through the Workspace's inspector, you can specify which app will, by default open a given file type. But in any given instance you can over-ride this default by either double-clicking on a different app within in the workspace inspector or command-dragging the file onto that app's icon. So, yes, all files with the same extension will by default open in a given app (you can't have some opening in one app and some opening in another) but there are easy and quick ways to over-ride the default whenever you choose to. Having said that, it seems to me that it ought to be simple to have a way to add particular extensions to the OS and tell it which app to direct files with those extensions to. That way you wouldn't be dependent on the specific extensions your app came with. In the example above, you could just customize your VC files to end with .vc instead of .c, and tell the OS to send any such files to VC rather than Borland. There is a freeware app that lets you do this under NeXTSTEP, but its not part of the OS. -- Stefano Pagiola 850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.233.85.167!shore!pm20-45.bstnma.shore.net!user From: robm@shore.net (Rob Mitchell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 13:25:04 -0400 Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net) Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm20-45.bstnma.shore.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22488 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3996 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60919 In article , phetsy@earthlink.net (Phetsy Calderon) wrote: > In article <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, > glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > > > In article , > > > Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for Mac? > > Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you > guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files. I believe it's in the Utilities > folder, but if you haven't already, just download the > file. Path is /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. Search this file to > find MacGREP's location. Also, if you own BBEdit (maybe even BBEdit Lite), it has a nice little grep feature inside the Find dialog. Very nice product that BBEdit, BTW. -- Rob Mitchell (robm@shore.net) Macintosh Software Developer (PS: yes, I do Windows/MFC development and porting, too) My opinions belong to me and only me. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!szdc!szdc-e!ppp.manual.com!user From: kindall@manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:07:51 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp.manual.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.3 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22489 comp.sys.mac.system:197668 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3997 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60923 In article , Ian Russell Ollmann wrote: >Frankly, on the Apple, I find that if it is a specific text file, MS word >or any of a half dozen word processors and text editors work fine enough >for me. If you need to find a file with a particular word in it, but don't >know which file it is, you can either wait for a Vtwin enabled finder >under Rhapsody, if not Tempo or Allegro, or you could download TurboFind >(http://www.moreinfo.com.au/access/TurboFind.html) today. UltraFind is a very nice program which includes an indexer -- content searches on indexed volumes are lightning-fast. Two commercial programs which may fit your needs are On Location (discountined, but still works if you can find a copy) and Retrieve It!. On Location is another indexing-type program which is very quick (though not as flexible as UltraFind). Retrieve It! is not as fast but it doesn't require space-consuming index files and is still pretty quick. I frequently use Retrieve It! myself. > Ian Ollmann -- Jerry Kindall Manual Labor Technical Writing; Internet & WWW Consulting Author of the Web Motion Encyclopedia The comprehensive animation and video reference for Web designers Coming Summer '97 from Waite Group Press #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 15:04:04 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <32FB8AB4.2A40@subsequent.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dal9c$bd1$3@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22490 comp.sys.mac.system:197674 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3998 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60930 Joel Klecker wrote: > > In article <5dal9c$bd1$3@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > > >You're right, Nextstep isn't "like a Mac". It's better. The people who > >brought you the Mac left Apple because Apple wasn't willing to take another > >risk and make something better.. and those people created NeXT, and created > >something better. > > Hmm, I wasn't aware that "Reality Distortion Field.app" shipped with > NEXTSTEP. :-) You're just jealous. ;) -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!tonyn From: tonyn@tiac.net (Tony Nelson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 16:00:22 -0500 Organization: Lines: 11 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tonyn.tiac.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22491 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60932 comp.sys.mac.system:197676 In article <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > Now, before you go though these rants again, go out and use the damn thing. > Stop arguing from a stance of total ignorance. I'll be brief. We like Macs. We use Macs because we can understand them. We want Macs, not techie Unix stuff. We aren't required to buy your favorite toy. If you don't like Macs, GO AWAY. ____________________________________________________________________ TonyN.:' tonyn@tiac.net ' #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 7 Feb 97 14:39:14 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 42 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-9.access.one.net In-reply-to: stes@cwi.nl's message of Fri, 7 Feb 1997 03:06:31 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5232 comp.sys.next.programmer:22492 In article stes@cwi.nl (David Stes) writes: In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >it, while still retaining the speed. Driesen describes means of >packing rows or columns together to make a single array that's >smaller than the matrix was. Note that all the exisiting OC runtimes use some form of hashtable to do the look-up. I suspect that's the "packed matrix". Unsure what your usage of "hashtable" is in the above. As I understand it, it would mean that the code to find the imp would change from: imp=impTable[ selectorTable[ _cmd]+self->isa->classNumber]; to: imp=self->isa->impTable[ hashSel( _cmd)%self->isa->impTableSize]; in a table-per-class implementation. [Sorry, this is clearly psuedo-code.] The problem is that use of hashSel(), and also that you have to handle collisions in the impTable. So obviously this is even bad psuedo-code :-). Note that the variation Driesen's paper suggests basically builds an impTable which doesn't require hashing, you index it directly. [It appears to me, looking over your code, that you optimize _imp() by using essentially a "selector look-aside buffer". First, you check a system-wide selector cache, and if the selector/class tuple is in the cache, you use the imp directly. Otherwise, you fall back to _getImp(). Driesen's version basically arranges things so that _all_ access would effectively be via the sel/class cache. Method dispatch would never use _getImp(). On the other hand, it's less dynamic.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 15:49:41 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 66 Message-ID: <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22493 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60933 comp.sys.mac.system:197680 Alan Jenks wrote: > On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After > installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created > files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double > click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others with > Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with either one. > > What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent this > step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? There is no 'creator' concept - that idea falls apart in a multiuser scenario. Filename extensions are used, but they are more flexible than Windows extensions. There's no limit on the length of the extension, for instance. The NeXTSTEP presentation app 'Concurrence' uses a '.concur' extension. Spaces are allowed in filenames. The WorkspaceManager, an application which plays the role of Apple's Finder, manages what applications open which files. Each application tells the workspace what kinds of files it can open. If you select a file, and bring up an 'Inspector' window (Command-3), you are shown a scrolling list of icons which represent the applications that can open that kind of file. One of them is treated as the default. The default application is shown as the furthest-left icon. For a file of type '.tiff', I have 5 icons: IconBuilder.app, WetPaint.app, Preview.app, WorkspaceManager.app, and Edit.app. Edit.app is always an option. This may sound odd, but it often makes sense. Files with no extension are treated as Edit files. WorkspaceManager.app provides a Contents Inspector (Command-2) in which documents are displayed (in a small window). You can create loadable bundles that will extend the Contents Inspector to handle more filetypes. If you double-click a file, the default application for that type of file is used to open it. To change the default, you bring up the inspector, select another application, and click the 'Set Default' button. You don't have to deal with all the editing garbage that Windows requires. To open the file with an application other than the default, you can either Command-drop the file on the application's icon, or you can bring up the Inspector and double-click the icon of the application you want it to open in. (Or you can use the open menu, in that application.) In one way, this may seem like a step backwards. But, in the 5 years I've been using NeXT's, I've never once had an occasion to need some utility so I could fix some file rendered useless by munged type/creator codes. That happened quite a few times in my 3 years if Mac ownership. (If it wasn't a problem, there wouldn't be several third-party tools around to work around it.) And, again, creator codes don't work well in a multi-user environment or network. If one user prefers Painter, and one user prefers Photoshop, and they both have to work on a set of files, they're continually going to have creator problems, because the files will continually have their creator code set to the other person's app. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!not-for-mail From: Alan Jenks Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 13:17:39 -0600 Organization: None Lines: 21 Message-ID: <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jalanet@mcs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: jalanet.pr.mcs.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22494 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60934 comp.sys.mac.system:197682 John Siracusa wrote: > > As a follow up to my own post, let me just add this: > > File name extensions as the OS-wide method of > file type recognition: JUST SAY NO > I absolutely agree!! One of the things that makes the Mac a joy to use is that I can create a file in an application and name it anything I choose. Double click the file and the application that created it will launch and open it. On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others with Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with either one. What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent this step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep/Sparc [MiscKit] Date: 7 Feb 1997 19:13:40 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 85 Message-ID: <5dfut4$k5a@news.xmission.com> References: <32F19278.453B@erols.com> <5d5c30$8uq@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <32FA5C21.3080@cyrix.com> <32FB1573.6445@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.sun.misc:27074 comp.sys.next.misc:25000 comp.sys.next.programmer:22495 As MiscKit administrator, I feel like I ought to add a few comments and explanations to Patrick Schulz's post, since it brings up some good points and raises a few issues I haven't had time to answer before. (But the public posting almost requires a response, IMHO.) On the MiscKit/OPENSTEP issues brought up here, there are a few things to note: (a) MiscKit2 as it stands is a pre-alpha and is, in my own words from the press release, "almost useless". (b) It is built on NEXT's OPENSTEP because I don't have a Solaris box to work with. (c) MiscKit is a free project and happens in people's spare time. To give more details: (a) pre-alpha; useless There's a lot of work to be done, and the OPENSTEP conversion is very incomplete. I want it to eventually be a 100% OPENSTEP compliant system and this means that there's a lot of work to do. I cannot do it all myself, and to date, not too many people have stepped in to help. Those who have: Thanks! Those who haven't: either step in and help--otherwise you have no right to complain! We _will_ get there. I'd like to do it ASAP, but as the rest of this explains, reality will cause delays in a project like this... (b) no Solaris boxes I'd be happy to make it compliant to the Solaris spec, but without a box to work with, _I_ can't do the work. If Sun cares enough about this to place a Sparc box on my desk, I'll be happy to make the MiscKit more Sparc-friendly. To date, they've expressed some interest, but not that much. What I envision is that we'll--as we always have--build off of everything NeXT gives us. Since some of that isn't in the OPENSTEP spec, what isn't in NeXT's version will have to be written for the Sparc version--ie, a non-OPENSTEP extension provided by NeXT would be recreated for the Sparc OPENSTEP. Obviously, some extensions are a bit beyond our scope to recreate, but a lot of the extensions we already almost have by virtue of the functionality of the MiscKit1 code we are porting. But without a Sun box--or someone with a Sun box stepping in to help--that situation probably won't get any better. Note that the "extra" stuff we need to run on Sun's environment is something we would probably want to either donate to GnuStep, or, if GnuStep already has it, borrow from them. :-) (c) freebie done in spare time Seems like we're all short on spare time these days given the NeXT/Apple merger and all the hoopla surrounding it; things have been somewhat slow in the submission receipt department, and I haven't had a lot of time to do the work myself. Progress is happening, but very slowly. [To keep it in perspective, here's the projects I have to keep my "spare time" busy: MiscKit1, MiscKit2, 3DKit, Indexing Kit, GameKit, several games, webmaster for several sites (www.planetary.net, www.yacktman.com, etc.) and tht's not counting family time and my regular job! So if you wait for _me_ to do all the work, it will eventually happen but not very quickly. Volunteers truly are needed!] At any rate, the problems addressed in the post that was copied from the MiscKit list are all things I plan to address over time. Right now, though, the post points out some very real flaws in the current MiscKit. My answer is: rather than complain, become part of the solution! That's the whole philosophy behind the kit itself and taking action like that will help everyone involved. :-) So, given that I acknowledge that MiscKit2 is currently almost useless for OPENSTEP development, I'd like to remind everyone that I don't plan for it to stay that way. The point point of making the kit is for it to be used, and I will do all that I can (now and in the future) to make sure that it can be used! -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!wong!iano From: Ian Russell Ollmann Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:07:07 -0800 Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: wong.scripps.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: iano@wong To: Gregory Loren Hansen In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22496 comp.sys.mac.system:197702 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:3999 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60942 On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: > Okay. I got a bunch of C source code. I'll have to try to make that work. > > Okay, I got TurboFind. I'm trying it out as I type do you. Looks like > exactly the file/string search I wanted. Except I'm searching for > "Erwin", and it keeps giving me "insidesendERWINdow) /*" in drag.c. I > didn't know I had 30 copies of drag.c, but it went on to puzzleDrag.c and > others, so it must be making forward progress. Looks like this one is > worth the $10 the author is asking. > > You know, this seems like just the kind of thing OpenDoc would be good > at. I realize OpenDoc has more flexibility than Unix-style streams, but > each of the utilities could be a part, and a container app could be just > a text command line and text output (with scrolling and printing and > things, like SIOUX). That would be very nice. And those parts would > also be available for any other OpenDocable app. And maybe a system() > call that invokes the CLI container? > > GNU utilities for OpenDoc? > > It would all be very nice. AppleEvents scare me away, but I could handle > system(). But I suppose there won't be much motivation to work on that > kind of project until we see what comes with Rhapsody. I hadn't thought about OpenDoc for that sort of use. However, if you want to use someting akin to piping in unix on the mac (e.g. something like cat /usr/mail/myboss | grep "My Name" | lpr) you might wish to a new development effort called FilterTops. It uses a graphical program interface to string together stdin and stdout of components so that you can do this sort of stuff easily on the mac. I took a look at it six months ago, and it looked promising, though not all the tools were in place. It is a mac community development effort, so if you want to write specialty tools, they would be thrilled to have you do so. In the mean time, hopefully over the last six months it has progressed fairly well and might be quite useful. It looks like it will do everything from grepping out words from a series of files to backing up/compressing files more recent than a specified date. http://topsoft.topsoft.org/ I hope that some day it finds its way into the Finder. Ian Ollmann #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.170.183.55!brighton.openmarket.com!decwrl!purdue!mozo.cc.purdue.edu!news From: ab@purdue.edu (Allen Braunsdorf) Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep/Sparc Date: 7 Feb 1997 20:20:12 GMT Organization: Purdue University Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5dg2ps$e1h@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> References: <32F19278.453B@erols.com> <5d5c30$8uq@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <32FA5C21.3080@cyrix.com> <32FB1573.6445@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: carnot.physics.purdue.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.sun.misc:27075 comp.sys.next.misc:25001 comp.sys.next.programmer:22497 Patrick Schulz wrote: >> Openstep on Solaris is VERY slow. >You're right. Sun could slightly increase performance in the current >beta version, >but it's IMHO not enough (compared to my NeXTstation). A SPARC running NEXTSTEP 3.3 is about four times as fast as a Turbo station by the usual benchmarks and feels much faster. Are you telling me that Openstep over Solaris is as slow as a station? I hope not. My machine has a CG3 in it, which NEXTSTEP doesn't support (I fixed the driver myself). I borrowed a CG6 one day and swapped it to see if there was any speed difference. It felt the same, but the graphics benchmarks said it was a little slower. My machine also runs better now that I've upgraded to 80MB of memory. OmniWeb is really the only thing that gets it swapping a lot. ab #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.netins.net!composer.inav.net!dcoshel From: dcoshel@pobox.com (Dave Oshel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 14:49:32 -0600 Organization: Xochitl Sodality Wonders & Marvels Committee Lines: 26 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <0myB5iy00iWY461F04@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: dip80.inav.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22498 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4001 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60947 comp.sys.mac.system:197714 In article <0myB5iy00iWY461F04@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger wrote: [ whack...] > MacOS has been based solely around GUI solutions for every task, and the > lack of a CLI is one of the major weaknesses of the MacOS because it > prevents knowledgable users from using the CLI as an alternative which > is sometimes superior for some tasks. Apple has never been loathe to throw her weakest children to the wolves, as those of us who bought Apple ]['s, ///'s and Lisas learned. Or SE's, for that matter. So MPW is a legacy of uncharacteristically old thinking at Apple -- its CLI has been around for years. With a toolbox of filters like Rez and DeRez ready to hand, its debt to Unix design philosophy has never been hard to see. Whatever the next Mac is based on, it had better know its "core business" as well as, say, the humble little Linux 1.2.13 kernel. Otherwise, some large and beautiful beasts are going to go the way of the dinosaurs. -- David C. Oshel dcoshel@pobox.com Cedar Rapids, IA http://pobox.com/~dcoshel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!NewsWatcher!user From: woody@alumni.caltech.edu (William Edward Woody) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 12:52:31 -0800 Organization: In Phase Consulting Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alumnae.caltech.edu X-Reality-Check: Failed X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.1d3+ Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22499 comp.sys.mac.system:197715 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60948 In article <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > William Edward Woody (woody@alumni.caltech.edu) wrote: > : But get this: Mach is *NOT* Unix. Mach has been used to build a Unix > : compatable OS, and most people tend to build off of a Unix client > : built on top of the Mach kernel because that's what most of us > : programmers are familiar with. > > Granted, kernel and system calls are fine. What I'm concerned about > most is the support even simple Unix-isms like shell scripts require > in order to work. IMO, this support system is not worth the small > advantages that a few advanced users will receive because it constrains > the rest of the OS too much. Hang on a second. When I said that Mach is not Unix, I think you failed to get the point. Mach itself is a microkernel, which supplies only three major services: preemptive multiprocessing and multitasking support, interprocess communications support, and the framework for low level memory management. Note that all three of these are 'support'--it is presumed that like the NuKernel or Microsoft's NT kernel, a layer of services would live on top of the Mach kernel in order to create a complete operating system. While most folks have put various flavors of Unix on top of Mach does not mean that Mach is only suitable for Unix. It would be like people only putting Unix on top of the NuKernel technology Apple was working on--just because it's first doesn't mean the NuKernel technology is only good for Unix. Mach is not Unix. It is a technology for building an operating system. Even the system calls can be redirected by the Mach technology, so that an application can request a different environment to live in. What this means is that even though the NeXTStep GUI now lives in a Unix-like environment does not mean we have to have to turn the Macintosh into a Unix box in order to run NeXTStep: it means only that at some level, the yellow box will contain a Unix emulator. > : Second, let me note that I was also concerned with the idea of having > : a Unix kernel underlying the MacOS--as soon as such a thing hit the > : shelves it wouldn't be long before someone did 'tsh', at which point, > : we may as well have simply exposed people to the shell. > > It's not the kernel that bothers me. The Mach kernel is certainly > suitable, although the Apple-striped part of me wishes I could see > NuKernel with it's plug-in extensibility. Think of Mach as CMU's version of the NuKernel. Both had the same purpose, and both have the same underlying purpose: to provide the fundamental core of services an operating system 'personality module' can use to implement a full operating system environment. > : But ultimately, using the Mach kernel does not mean the Macintosh will > : operate as a layer on top of Unix. Instead, it means Apple will more > : likely create various OS "servers" which service operating system calls > : in the same way the Unix server operates. In fact, I suspect both > : the "yellow box" and the "blue box" are really just Mach servers > : providing different operating system personalities. > > As I stated in my original post, a POSIX subsystem is fine. A Unix > directory tree appearing on my hard drive after a standard install is > not. This doesn't have to happen to support NeXTStep or the yellow box. - Bill -- William Edward Woody - In Phase Consulting - woody@alumni.caltech.edu http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 15:09:46 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <32FB8C0A.2C92@subsequent.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5dfhrg$73v@horus.ecmwf.int> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22500 comp.sys.mac.system:197721 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4002 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60951 Mike Connally wrote: > Rhapsody must provide all of the human interface correctness > of MacOS along with at least as good a filesystem architecture > before I'll be interested. HFS is not my idea of a 'good filesystem architecture'. It's a bad idea to make changes to the filesystem which make its files fundamentally incompatible with every other platform around. And don't get me started on the way HFS handles large disks. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news.uni-jena.de!news.tu-ilmenau.de!usenet From: Armin Tenge Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Problems with EOF Adaptors Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 22:19:28 +0100 Organization: TUI Lines: 6 Message-ID: <32FB9C5F.462B@prakinf.tu-ilmenau.de> Reply-To: Armin.Tenge@prakinf.tu-ilmenau.de NNTP-Posting-Host: clivia.rz.tu-ilmenau.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) I installed EOF 2.0 on a NT platform. I tried to make a new model and switched to the Informix Adaptor. It didn't find the ISQLI72.dll. When I switched to the other adaptor for relational databases, I got nearly the same error message that it couldn't find a dll. Thanks for immediate help, Armin #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!news@tiac.net From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Documentation in PB 4.1 Date: 7 Feb 1997 21:31:28 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5dg6vg$5s6@news-central.tiac.net> References: <5datht$547@q.seanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.215.178.89 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) misha@berlioz.osd.com (Misha M. Melikov) wrote: >For some reason I can only see AppKit and Foundation documentation in >ProjectBuilder 4.1. All other frameworks do not get indexed and >documentation can not be seen. How many other frameworks left? There is no documentation for System.framework and it's understandable. I've got References for EOF parts with OpenStep Enterprise on my machine. The problem is really that Documentation provided with OpenStep Enterprise for both Mach and NT is no longer that solid NeXT Documentation that could be found in good old days of NeXTSTEP 3.x. >Any thoughts? Should I be able to see any other documentation or is it too >much to ask? Look at $(NEXT_ROOT)/NeXTLibrary/Framework/$(FRAMEWORK_NAME).framework/Resources/Engl ish.lproj/Documentation/Reference Regards, Aleksey #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: jkeenan@next.com (Joe Keenan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Help a new OpenStep 4.1 NT Developer! Date: 6 Feb 1997 14:01:54 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5dco8i$kmu@news.next.com> References: <01bc13f3$39944410$992274cf@openstep-nt> Reply-To: joe_keenan@next.com NNTP-Posting-Host: barley.next.com In article <01bc13f3$39944410$992274cf@openstep-nt> "Chris" writes: > Hi everyone, > Let me say that I am very excited about the NeXT/Apple deal. I have > been interested in NeXT for a couple of years now, but I honestly believed > that NeXT would go bankrupt soon. But with news of the merger I went out > and bought OpenStep 4.1 developer for NT. > > My Problem: > My friend and I wrote a few dummy programs under NeXT 3.3 in a > standard text editor and compiled them from the command line, without > problem. When I tried to run the same program at home under NT, I get the > following error message: > > Jethro.m:5: "Cannot find interface declaration for 'Object', superclass of > 'JethroClass' NextStep 3.3 is based on the "old" APIs, and OPENSTEP is the "new" API. All objects in OpenStep are subclasses of NSObject, not Object. You'll have to change your object definitions. joe #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!copper.ucs.indiana.edu!glhansen From: Gregory Loren Hansen Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:59:40 -0500 Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 X-Sender: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22504 comp.sys.mac.system:197753 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4005 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60968 On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Ian Russell Ollmann wrote: > > GNU utilities for OpenDoc? > > > > It would all be very nice. AppleEvents scare me away, but I could handle > > system(). But I suppose there won't be much motivation to work on that > > kind of project until we see what comes with Rhapsody. > > I hadn't thought about OpenDoc for that sort of use. However, if you want > to use someting akin to piping in unix on the mac (e.g. something like > cat /usr/mail/myboss | grep "My Name" | lpr) you might wish to a new > development effort called FilterTops. It uses a graphical program > interface to string together stdin and stdout of components so that you > can do this sort of stuff easily on the mac. I took a look at it six Easy sources, filters, and sinks of information is one of the best things about Unix. It's something I'd like on the Mac, and I'll certainly take a look. > months ago, and it looked promising, though not all the tools were in > place. It is a mac community development effort, so if you want to write > specialty tools, they would be thrilled to have you do so. In the mean I'm a grad student learning the secrets of the universe, so I won't be writing specialty tools myself. I'm just looking for other people who've done all the work for me. > http://topsoft.topsoft.org/ I'll save this URL. Thanks. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!sonybc!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!btco!newsadm From: Gary Zhang Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: JDK Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 18:12:12 -0500 Organization: Bankers Trust Company Lines: 1 Message-ID: <32FBB6CC.14FA@ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: gzhang@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: algsvw0077.btco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Is there a version of JDK running on NeXTStep? Thanks. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!cdouty From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Message-ID: Organization: Netcom On-Line Services References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 23:27:18 GMT Lines: 27 Sender: cdouty@netcom18.netcom.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22506 comp.sys.mac.system:197757 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4006 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60970 In article , Paul Connelly wrote: >In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >> Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. > >The shell is the best part of UNIX though. The tools that come >with the shell are great. Just get rid of that horrid directory >structure. (Let's see, is that program in /bin, or was it /usr/bin, >or /usr/local/bin, or....?) What? and break every Unix package on the Net? It really has gotten a bit gangly though. Every Unix vendor has their own conventions, even in the SVR4 world. I'd like to see a nice 4.4BSD layer/filestructure. I dunno if they'll have time to do it for Rhapsody premire though. - Chris -- Christopher Douty - Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software cdouty@netcom.com "Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated according to some system with physical or conceptual entities. These semantic aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 07 Feb 1997 15:37:01 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22507 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60973 comp.sys.mac.system:197767 Alan Jenks writes: > One of the things that makes the Mac a joy to use is that I can create a > file in an application and name it anything I choose. Double click the > file and the application that created it will launch and open it. > > On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After > installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created > files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double > click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others with > Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with either one. > > What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent this > step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? These two issues (whether the types are part of the filename and the way in which file types and applications are tied together) are actually orthogonal. There are two ways in which you can tie a filename in with an application so that you can click on the filename and have the app open it nicely. The first, as seen on the Mac, is to have every file maintain a reference to the application which created it. The second, as implemented on Win95 and NeXT, is to have applications publish the file types that it knows how to handle, and give the user a way to choose a default application for that file type. The first way works very well on a single-user machine where files are usually created on the machine and left there; in this case, the creator application is (usually) always present. The second way works much better in a networked environment, where files get passed around and an attempt is made to keep the files in open standard formats. This way, the user on an individual machine can decide which application he or she likes best for opening a given file type. I prefer the second way a great deal. If I'm opening an HTML file, I don't want Netscape to open it, I want to use OmniWeb (or Mosaic, or Cyberdog...). If an Excel file is transferred onto my NeXT box, Mesa will open it without my having to do anything. And I don't care whether BBEdit, Borland, or Interface Builder created that C file, I want to open it in Emacs. Embedding type information into the filename is really a separate issue (and one which can, again, be hidden from the user if the programmers desire). -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!voskovec.radio.cz!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.he.net!news.enteract.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 8 Feb 1997 02:10:35 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5dgnar$rm1$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dgma6$rat$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: jrudd@cygnus.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22508 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60976 comp.sys.mac.system:197775 In <5dgma6$rat$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> John Rudd wrote: > Oh, and by the way, unless you plan to stick wtih System 7, if you stay on > the mac, you DO have to buy my favorite toy. And if you want me to go away, > then stop posting your ignorant drivel in our nextstep newsgroups. I feel the need to applogize to the other Mac users reading the groups that this has been cross posted to. The attitude I feel toward the initial poster, and the person I was just replying to are not how I feel toward the general mac community. In fact, I welcome the merger and consider the various technologies from the "other side" to be worth looking at and evaluating for inclusion (and i feel the same sort of evaluation should be done for things from "our side" too). What irks me is that the original poster starts off with an incredibly intollerant and closed perspective not just inspite of the open discussions and attempts to explain our side of the fence in another thread, but _because_ of how much time we're taking to explain why our technology is not only "not bad" for the Mac user, but "insanely great" for the future of the Mac... and yet inspite of claiming to read all of that, his statements show an incredible level of ignorance of everything being said... and a great deal of just plain bigotry for things he clearly has no clue about. The second bozo just managed to build on the first bozo's bigotry. But I don't want anyone to think that I don't welcome constructive, calm, and mature discourse on what the future of the Mac should be, and what technologies should be present in melding our two worlds. I want to see the Mac user and the Nextstep user come out of this deal feeling like they've both been enriched and empowered. If you're a Mac user who is afraid because you keep hearing "it's got that unfriendly unix underneath it", please trust us when we say "Nextstep is the friendliest system I've ever used, and is at least in the same catagory as the Mac" -- and not all of the people saying that are techies. Speaking of which, if you're in the Bay Area, I'd be happy to try to arrange to show you my Nextstep system.. either at home or at work. I'll give you a tour, and I'll let you sit and play for a while without me protecting you from the system. I'm not only willing to sit here and talk the talk, but I'll walk the walk too, because I'm confident that when you use the system, your fears will go away. But please, before you condemn Nextstep because of that Unix word, at least _TRY_ it. Ignorance and bigotry are ugly no matter what their target is. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.stealth.net!solace!news.ind.mh.se!not-for-mail From: "Christopher Erker" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: PrintForDebugger ??? Date: 7 Feb 1997 23:23:56 GMT Organization: Reich & Tang Lines: 11 Message-ID: <01bc154a$53c4c960$8279bdce@Pilot.rnt.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.189.121.130 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1160 I have a few question about PrintForDebugger. All of my 3rd party books and manuals (for Next 3.3, and OpenStep 4.1) hardly mention this method, but it looks really cool! 1) Is it only used through GDB? 2) If so, then can I use it through Openstep? 3) Could someone post a short example on it's use. Thank you for your time. -- Chris #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.stealth.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.216.190.5!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!ergotech.com!jim Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <199702071651.AA14596@ergotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) From: Jim Redman Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 09:52:12 -0700 Subject: PDO and hooking in an ORB Cc: jimg@abacus.com Lines: 25 Jim Gagnon >I'm in the process of learning OpenStep and am having problems in >finding documentation on how to take an existing ORB and tie it into >PDO so that it can successfully interoperate with other ORBs. There are two sides to this the Microsoft OLE/COM side and CORBA (II). NeXT has given slick demos of these products and the interaction/translation between them, billing PDO as the "Universal ORB". There much more information on OLE on their web site. My understanding is that, fairly transparently, you can talk from an OLE server or client to a PDO/UNIX client. I'm willing to be corrected on that since I haven't worked with it and don't know how simple it really is. NeXT's PDO is also "CORBA II" compliant. This means absolutely nothing without an implementation of an IDL, or Interface Definition Language. Essentially an IDL allows you to present the interface to your objects in a manner that can be understood by objects in other languages. I have heard rumors of third party implementation of an IDL for Objective-C, does anyone know more? NeXT is also working on an implementation of the OMG IDL and you can find more info by searching for IDL on the NeXT website. With any implementation of an IDL it should be possible to do what you need to do and have you application successfully interoperate. Jim #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.stealth.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.216.190.5!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!cdrom.com!eric Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <9702071549.AA06479@nebula.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.0 v146.2) X-Image-Url: http://www.cam.org/~ericet/EricTremblay.jpg X-Face: ai[hyoqe:f9G)"BQ&cQ[ Date: Fri, 7 Feb 97 07:49:22 -0800 Subject: How many characters in myScrollView???? OpenStep Reply-To: eric@cdrom.com Lines: 45 An OpenStep question. I'm trying to figure out how many characters I have in myScrollView. I just can't seem to get it to work. Any help would be very welcomed. Here's the converted OpenStep code: - textLengthTest:sender /* The number of characters in the Text object . */ { int HowLongIsTheText; document = [MyScrollView documentView]; /* assigns the length of the text in MyScrollView */ HowLongIsTheText = [[document text] length]; /* Displays how many characters is in the text */ [theTextLength setIntValue:HowLongIsTheText]; return self; } Here's the original NEXTSTEP code: - textLengthTest:sender /* The number of characters in the Text object . */ { int HowLongIsTheText; document = [MyScrollView docView]; /* assigns the length of the text in MyScrollView */ HowLongIsTheText = [document textLength]; /* Displays how many characters is in the text */ [theTextLength setIntValue:HowLongIsTheText]; return self; } Eric "E.T." Tremblay ericet@cam.org #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!strath-cs!info!mac-tim.dante.org.uk!user From: Tim.Streater@dante.org.uk (Tim Streater) Subject: Re: MacWorld Exclusive: Apple's OS Plan Unveiled!!! Message-ID: Sender: news@exeter.ac.uk (news admin) Organization: DANTE References: <5ami95$ol3@news.tuwien.ac.at> <32D5DFF0.2FB4@surf.net.au> <5bshs8$e5n@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 18:34:48 GMT Lines: 45 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22512 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:187149 comp.sys.mac.system:197786 comp.sys.next.advocacy:56895 In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: >>Well, if you want to scatter your applications around even though it >>makes your computer less functional and harder for other people to use, >>you can. I don't see why anyone would want to make their computer >>harder to use, but then, that's just my preference for thinking >>rationally showing through.... > >Funny, I put all my graphics applications in a Graphics folder, all my >utilities in a Utilities folder, all my internet applications in an >Internet folder, a subfolder to the Communications folder where I put all >my communications applications... I guess I just am not thinking >rationally. This is the sort of thing I do too, with variations because I have different sets of applications than you. But the principle's the same. Also I have a folder with aliases to all my apps and important docs. The nice thing about the MacOS alias is that I can move an application folder to the desktop, do some fiddling with the contents, and put it back without the link from the alias being destroyed. >To repeat the quote: > >>> Oh, it's terribly rational for the computer to dictate where the user >>> places files, rather than the other way around. >> >>Correct. > >This is the antithesis of the personal computer movement, and it's the >exact opposite of everything the Mac has stood for. I don't know if you >paid much attention to the early Mac market, or Apple's early advertising >-- but I still remember an early Mac demo, and the speech-synthesis >application that went with it: "Wouldn't it be easier to teach computers >about people, rather than teaching people about computers?" That philosophy >is one of the things that's kept me loyal to the Mac, through thick and >thin: the computer should adapt to the user, and computing power should be >used to make things easier for the user -- not the other way around. The >computer is there for the user, after all, not the user for the computer. Sad, isn't it, that some people still don't get this. Nerds are frightened by this philosophy, though. -- Tim Streater, DANTE. Tim.Streater@dante.org.uk +44 1223 302992 (Fax: 303005) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.66.12.35!news-in.iadfw.net!thegoat4 From: thegoat4@airmail.net (Bryant Brandon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 19:04:21 -0600 Organization: Anti Christian Coalition Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: fw10-9.ppp.iadfw.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b13 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22513 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60982 comp.sys.mac.system:197806 Damnit, shut up! You have no clue what you're whining about and you've polluted two groups that aren't related to this shit. You're concerned with what the users will experience after the merger. Programmers won't be bothered by the interface because we will always have to deal with the messy details of any system. Then you go on and on like you're the sole voice of the entire Macintosh community. You don't speak for me or anyone else. Go get a book and learn about Apple, NeXT, and programming. You obviously don't know a damn thing. In article <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > [...] > >Conclusion: > >Even the much-vaunted BeOS seems to suffer from file proliferation a la >Unix (/dev/modem anyone?) Perhaps this is unavoidable and I'm being >naive. After all, the *only* example of an OS that doesn't work this >way is the now-ancient Mac OS. But I don't thing there's any reason to >resign ourselves to the "me-too" world of evil OSes that require >"Uninstallers" and that keep us captive of a bazillion fragile text >files. There's a better way, and I only hope that in the coming years >the people behind the Mac/NeXT OS aren't afraid to break from the past >and give us an OS we can be proud to call "Mac." > B.B. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newshost.cygnet.co.uk!balti.imaginator.com!matthew From: matthew@imaginator.com (Matthew Powell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Date: 8 Feb 1997 03:03:43 GMT Organization: Cygnet Internet Services Ltd Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5dgqef$job$2@zeus.cygnet.co.uk> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: imaginator-wharf.imaginator.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22514 comp.sys.mac.system:197823 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4008 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60986 Gregory, > Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for Mac? > I may or may not have a document about Schrdinger that I'd like to look > up. But I have no idea where it might be, and I'm sure it would be buried > in file with a bunch of other stuff, and the name would have no relation > to the subject. And I don't know where to get it from an outside source. > I've made a few requests but got no response. If time really *is* immaterial, just call up the System 7.5 Find File and hold down option whilst selecting what to search by. You'll see a number of new options there including 'contents'. It takes forever, but it works. :) Matthew. -- [this space reserved for future expansion] #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!newshub.internex.net!masters0.news.internex.net!NewsWatcher!user From: ldesegur@911entertainment.com (LdS) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: $$$ Looking for Programmers & Graphic Artists $$$ Date: 8 Feb 1997 07:09:59 GMT Organization: 911 Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.119.65.24 Hello, We are a music based entertainment company (rock, techno, heavy...) looking to establish a Web presence. We are located in the San Francisco Bay Area. * If you are an experienced Java programmer (or C++ moving to Java) and interested about on-line interactive game development, we want to hear from you now. * We are looking for experienced database programmers with a good knowledge of Oracle RDBMS and Distributed Objects Technology. * We are also looking for talented 2D and 3D graphic artists and designers with creative ideas. We offer a good environment and good money. Full time positions available. send your resume at ldesegur@911entertainment.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!newshub1.home.com!news.home.com!newshub.internex.net!masters0.news.internex.net!NewsWatcher!user From: ldesegur@911entertainment.com (LdS) Newsgroups: comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer,fj.net.programming,rec.games.programmer Subject: $$$ Looking for Programmers & Graphic Artists $$$ Date: 8 Feb 1997 07:16:10 GMT Organization: 911 Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.119.65.24 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.newton.programmer:16616 comp.sys.next.programmer:22516 comp.unix.programmer:46682 fj.net.programming:188 rec.games.programmer:114587 Hello, We are a music based entertainment company (rock, techno, heavy...) looking to establish a Web presence. We are located in the San Francisco Bay Area. * If you are an experienced Java programmer (or C++ moving to Java) and interested about on-line interactive game development, we want to hear from you now. * We are looking for experienced database programmers with a good knowledge of Oracle RDBMS and Distributed Objects Technology. * We are also looking for talented 2D and 3D graphic artists and designers with creative ideas. We offer a good environment and good money. Full time positions available. send your resume at ldesegur@911entertainment.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!128.255.40.11!news.uiowa.edu!news1.icaen!macpd From: macpd@icaen.uiowa.edu (Liquefy root user) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Date: 8 Feb 1997 03:41:44 GMT Organization: Iowa Computer Aided Engineering Network, University of Iowa Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5dgslo$jda@server05.icaen.uiowa.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ground.isca.uiowa.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22517 comp.sys.mac.system:197841 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4009 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60991 Phetsy Calderon (phetsy@earthlink.net) wrote: : In article <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, : glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: : > In article , : > Phetsy Calderon wrote: : > >In article <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, : > >Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you : > >guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files.... Path is : /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. : >Search this file to : > >find MacGREP's location. : > : > That sounds great. Except I'm not really sure what to do with that path. : > I tried putting an "ftp:" in front of it, but Netscape says the connection : > was refused. : Sorry Greg--I have the Info-Mac path so firmly engraved in my brain I : forget that normal human beings use brain space to remember dates with : their spouses and what to put in their coffee ;-). : You need to access an Info-Mac site: It looks like you're posting from : an Indiana location, so you might want to hit the mirror at U of Iowa. : Path is . The U of Iowa replaced grind with liquefy a year ago, the old name still works of course. Liquefy has a HTTP interface as well as FTP, and an telnet interface for those still stuck in the dark ages. All three interfaces support file name and file date searches. Quite usefull to find things in the 4gigs of Mac files on liquefy. http://liquefy.isca.uiowa.edu/mac Brett Davis - macpd@isca.uiowa.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 8 Feb 1997 01:53:09 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 55 Message-ID: <5dgma6$rat$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: tonyn@tiac.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22518 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60994 comp.sys.mac.system:197844 In Tony Nelson wrote: > In article <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > > > Now, before you go though these rants again, go out and use the damn thing. > > Stop arguing from a stance of total ignorance. > > I'll be brief. We like Macs. We use Macs because we can understand them. > We want Macs, not techie Unix stuff. We aren't required to buy your > favorite toy. If you don't like Macs, GO AWAY. You sir, are exactly why the Mac market is failing. You're holding back the Mac from moving forward by being afraid to see some innovation or rennovation that has real technical merrit because something related to that rennovation isn't what you like. You don't know jack about what Nextstep is, or how easy it is to use. I don't care if you BUY a Nextstep system or not. USE IT before you go around saying how "unix will be the end of us!".. because quite frankly I have more contacts throughout the world who find Nextstep easier to use than the Mac, than the other way around. And I'm not talking about Techie people, or people who want "techie Unix stuff". I'm talking about artists, desktop publishers, graphic artists, secretaries, business people, house wives, children, etc. It has an intuitive, dynamic, and flexible GUI that makes a Mac look like the primitive toy that it is. But unlike the Mac, that's not all.. it has a fully capable and scalable infrastructure as well. Unix doesn't get in the way of the user experience at all (not that you'd know, because rather than take my advice and USE THE DAMN THING, you and the other Mac bigot here would rather bury your head in the sand and complain about "oh no, this might have unix in it), yet the Unix core gives it all of the power necessary to work as a heterogenous network server or gateway... not something you see a lot of Macs doing. But that's STILL not all. It has a built in between these two layers (GUI and Unix) a rich, dynamic, and extensible Object layer that makes development as friendly as the NeXT UI (ie. more friendly than the Mac UI, and WAY more friendly than Mac development), as well as making it easy to develop network aware and distributable programs. Don't forget that it was the rapid development environment of Nextstep that made the originator of the Web decide it was worth his time to spend building the project. Unix doesn't limit the user one tiny bit.. instead, combined with the development and GUI layers it empowers the user in ways that the Mac only gives us a vague hint. Oh, and by the way, unless you plan to stick wtih System 7, if you stay on the mac, you DO have to buy my favorite toy. And if you want me to go away, then stop posting your ignorant drivel in our nextstep newsgroups. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 07 Feb 1997 18:16:06 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dgma6$rat$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22519 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:60995 comp.sys.mac.system:197845 jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes: > In Tony Nelson wrote: > > I'll be brief. We like Macs. We use Macs because we can > > understand them. We want Macs, not techie Unix stuff. We aren't > > required to buy your favorite toy. If you don't like Macs, GO > > AWAY. > > You sir, are exactly why the Mac market is failing. You're holding > back the Mac from moving forward by being afraid to see some > innovation or rennovation that has real technical merrit because > something related to that rennovation isn't what you like. Hear hear. Well said, John. Apple and its marketplace are too far gone to rely on the insular, closed world they've been dealing with. They have a chance to open up and start looking at what's out there and how to make it work for them. It's time to get that act together. > [...] It has a built in between these two layers (GUI and Unix) a > rich, dynamic, and extensible Object layer that makes development as > friendly as the NeXT UI (ie. more friendly than the Mac UI, and WAY > more friendly than Mac development), as well as making it easy to > develop network aware and distributable programs. I'm often reminded that Steve Jobs, during his first visit to Xerox PARC, was shown three things: the GUI, networking, and object-oriented programming. When he came out with the Mac, it was because he only noticed the benefit of one of the trio. When he came out with the NeXT, he got all three. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!roger.interlynx.net!visgen.com!not-for-mail From: robert@visgen.com (Robert Osborne) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: New User/Developer Date: 5 Feb 1997 11:30:53 -0500 Organization: Visible Genetics Inc. Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5dacjt$bqq@knuth.visgen.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.visgen.com Mark Jenkins wrote: >How much faster will I be if I upgrade my ram to 32/64 megs? I upgraded my machine from 32 to 64 and it became much faster. It now only swaps when I run our app :-) One thing I've noticed is that the MachOS seems to have a very good swapping algorithm+ if I open an app that hasn't been "running" for a while it seems to swap the whole thing back in. So if you hear swapping when doing your regular daily work, buy memory 'cause Mach puts it to good use. Rob. + compared to other OS's I've recent experience with, like Solaris, SunOS, AIX, HP/UX, IRIX, VMS, NT, Win95 and LynxOS :-) -- Robert A. Osborne, robert@visgen.com "It's now safe to turn off your computer." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 8 Feb 1997 06:04:41 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dgnar$rm1$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22521 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61000 comp.sys.mac.system:197864 John Rudd (jrudd@cygnus.com) wrote: : If you're a Mac user who is afraid because : you keep hearing "it's got that unfriendly unix underneath it", please trust : us when we say "Nextstep is the friendliest system I've ever used, and is at : least in the same catagory as the Mac" -- and not all of the people saying : that are techies. Contrary to what you might thing, I've always admired the NeXT system and do indeed think it has many things to offer the Mac community. What I'm afraid of is that the break from the "traditional Mac experience" will be too drastic, and that we'll be left with a sum OS that's less than either the Mac or NeXT was individually. To avoid this, obviously, the *good* from both systems must be kept. IMO, the UI and user experience are the strongest points of the Mac. The API and "plumbing" seem to me to be the best parts of NeXTSTEP (yes, there are NeXT UI tricks that the Mac could learn a thing or two from) But the central question addressed (admittedly, somewhat sensationally) in my original post to this thread was this: is the file system more part of the UI, or the "plumbing"? Put another way, if the next generation Mac OS is to keep most of the Mac user experience, can it do so while adopting the NeXT file system? My own personal conclusion was that it would be a tough road... -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.stealth.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: John 'kzin' Rudd Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 09:56:20 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Inc. Lines: 49 Message-ID: <32FCBE44.37E5@cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dgnar$rm1$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-mv-06.cygnus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22522 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61001 comp.sys.mac.system:197867 John Siracusa wrote: > > > But the central question addressed (admittedly, somewhat > sensationally) in my original post to this thread was this: is the > file system more part of the UI, or the "plumbing"? Put another way, > if the next generation Mac OS is to keep most of the Mac user > experience, can it do so while adopting the NeXT file system? > > My own personal conclusion was that it would be a tough road... > I think at first, just because of the time constraints they're under, you'll see the existing unix file system with its existing structures. It wont be exactly the same as the Mac experience, in that respect, but I don't think it will impact anyone very hard. The final solution may be something NeXT had worked on in the past.. You see, there were several evolutionary steps that were supposed to go in to the 4.0 version of the OS that they dropped (transfering resources to the Openstep/Windows project to get it out the door on time). One was a new UI (instead of a dock, a multi-folder-tabbed application shelf, a different looking Dock, and some new half size icon buttons, plus a blue gradient title bar instead of flat black), a new kernel (which is probably what the Rhapsody kernel will be), one or two misc. OS thingys (one rumor that they were going to eliminate any AT&T code, and thus eliminate that license fee, more BSD 4.4isms, etc), and last but not least (and finnaly to the point ;-) ) was a new file system that more directly supported objects. I suspect that this would probably still have hidden "complex file entities are really wrappers, which are implimented via directories", but it would probably have added things like creator information and file type information somewhere other than the file name. (note, I dont know that for a fact, I'm speculating on what features the new file system would have had). On the otherhand, maybe they ARE going to resurect this, too. Now is really the time to do it, so that people don't have to change filesystem formats later (in Rhapsody 2.0 or something). Another option is taking the features of UFS and adding in features from HFS (they already know HFS formats, as Nextstep already supports Mac disks). But that is likely to be the most expensive (in terms of both time and money) option to develop.. there's no existing framework, there's not enough time to test it along wiht all of the other changes and still keep the delivery schedule (which is, to me, the main goal). But we'll see... #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.55.3.16!news2.mnsinc.com!news1.mnsinc.com!plsuh From: plsuh@goodeast.com (Paul L. Suh) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 01:30:50 -0500 Organization: Monumental Network Systems Lines: 55 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp56.pm2.gslink.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22523 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61003 comp.sys.mac.system:197869 In article , Stephen Peters wrote: > Alan Jenks writes: > > One of the things that makes the Mac a joy to use is that I can create a > > file in an application and name it anything I choose. Double click the > > file and the application that created it will launch and open it. > > > > On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After > > installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created > > files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double > > click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others with > > Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with either one. > > > > What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent this > > step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? > > These two issues (whether the types are part of the filename and > the way in which file types and applications are tied together) are > actually orthogonal. > > There are two ways in which you can tie a filename in with an > application so that you can click on the filename and have the app > open it nicely. The first, as seen on the Mac, is to have every file > maintain a reference to the application which created it. The second, > as implemented on Win95 and NeXT, is to have applications publish the > file types that it knows how to handle, and give the user a way to > choose a default application for that file type. > > The first way works very well on a single-user machine where files are > usually created on the machine and left there; in this case, the > creator application is (usually) always present. The second way works > much better in a networked environment, where files get passed around > and an attempt is made to keep the files in open standard formats. > This way, the user on an individual machine can decide which > application he or she likes best for opening a given file type. Actually, on the Mac there are _two_ 4-byte references for each file: one is the file type, the other is the file creator. Thus, it is possible to have a file of type TEXT that when double-clicked is opened by SimpleText, while another file, also of type TEXT, is opened by Netscape Navigator when double-clicked. There is a mechanism in the MacOS (Macintosh Easy Open) that allows the user to designate a default app to open a file with a creator whose app is not installed on the machine. The combination of the two works extremely well in a networked environment, IMHO much better than simple file-type defaults. Both the primary mechanism and the Macintosh Easy Open mechanism can be overridden by using drag & drop or opening from within the app. I believe that this point is moot; Aplle almost certainly will integrate a full MacOS type/creator mechanism into the file system during the development of Rhapsody. --Paul #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!uunet!in2.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem2-28.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 01:35:32 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem2-28.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22524 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61008 comp.sys.mac.system:197886 In article <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: >One wonders if that's a good thing. One of the largest problems with >the Mac filesystem is that it's a huge pain trying to transfer files to >other platforms in a meaningful way. No, it's not. Other platforms can't use the stuff in resource forks anyway, if the file needs the res fork stuff, then it's a mac-specific file and is useless to non-macs. If it's not a mac-specific file, say a PNG image, then just the data fork can be transferred. Or one can use a scheme such as AppleDouble, which separates the mac-specific data from the non mac-specific data. The only problem is that MacOS is not capable of decoding MacBinarized, AppleSingled, or Binhexed files on its own, which causes problems for the mac user that doesn't possess utilities to handle such files. >> not directly related to text config files. Say what you want about >> the performance trade-offs of keeping track of aliases, > >Okay, I will. The performance trade-offs are awful. Based on what evidence? I don't know of any other OS than MacOS that offers mac-like "aliases", and there's still a lot of non-native code in MacOS. I'm sure that the alias handling has gone through a bit of performance tuning, the hit, if there is one is certainly miniscule when one considers the usefulness of aliases. I'm not convinced that there /are/ any significant performance trade-offs, however. -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. Boycott Microsoft! Why? See . #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news.ppp.net!usenet From: Lars Immisch Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXT Semaphores? help... Date: Thu, 06 Feb 1997 19:06:05 +0100 Organization: Immisch, Becker & Partner Lines: 22 Message-ID: <32FA1D8D.71A5@pobox.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.163.97.16 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Lars Immisch (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Priority: Normal Scott W. Bradley wrote: > > I have a program that compiles on various other flavores of unix > that uses system semaphores. It does not compile on nextstep though. > I get things like "key_t" undefined. Alos, I can't even locate a header > file that I usually use called . I can't seem to find > procedures like semget(). Can anybody please give any advice on how > to get this to work? semget()... This smells like SysV to me. So I guess the semaphores your program uses are simply not available under NeXTStep. Under NeXTStep, you could use the Mach conditions and mutexes. It should not be too difficult to write a SysV emulation layer, either. Lars -- mailto:immisch@pobox.com http://pobox.com/~immisch Yesterdays yellow yoyo can make you yawn today #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-13.sprintlink.net!nntp.snet.net!news.snet.net!usenet From: svenifer@snet.net(Sven Crouse) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Documentation in PB 4.1 Date: 8 Feb 1997 06:19:33 GMT Organization: "SNET dial access service" Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5dh5tl$2dl@goofy.snet.net> References: <5datht$547@q.seanet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: hrfr03-sh8-port209.snet.net In-Reply-To: <5datht$547@q.seanet.com> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 On 02/05/97, Misha M. Melikov wrote: >For some reason I can only see AppKit and Foundation documentation in >ProjectBuilder 4.1. All other frameworks do not get indexed and >documentation can not be seen. >Any thoughts? Should I be able to see any other documentation or is it too >much to ask? >-m > Also make sure that PB->preferences->indexing->host field is not set to anything if you want the projectServer (responsible for indexing I believe) to be your local machine. Sven #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 8 Feb 1997 17:34:24 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5didf0$jre@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5dgqef$job$2@zeus.cygnet.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: 1073745024 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22527 comp.sys.mac.system:197940 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4010 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61025 In article <5dgqef$job$2@zeus.cygnet.co.uk>, Matthew Powell wrote: >If time really *is* immaterial, just call up the System 7.5 Find File and >hold down option whilst selecting what to search by. You'll see a number >of new options there including 'contents'. It takes forever, but it >works. :) Cool! I did not I could do that. Well, I've already tried TurboFind, and I don't have the article I was looking for. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.pbi.net!cbgw3.lucent.com!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 8 Feb 1997 17:59:35 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 171 Message-ID: <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22528 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61027 comp.sys.mac.system:197946 John Rudd (jrudd@cygnus.com) wrote: : Ohgod.. do we have to go through this AGAIN!? My nntp server only had the very tail-end of the "Mach-o" discussion... : We already hashed this one out with Maury. Well you won't have to "have it out" with me; just explain it ;) : To the GUI user, a Wrapper looks EXACTLY like a file, except that it's : executable. The only difference is to the CLI user (which you probably : wont be anyway). --which I most assuredly *will* be, if there's one to use. It's not my personal fear that's motivating the discussion, it's the traditional Mac experience that I'm concerned about. : > I don't think there's anyone who would deny that messing with lines of : > text is more error prone even in the best conditions (i.e. no user : > modification of the file with a text editor to munge it up) simply : > because each text files are so free-form. : I will be the first to deny this. Any application can trash any unprotected : config file no matter what format it is in. And binary config files are no : less error prone to novice users. In fact, they may be more so, as the : person fires up a text editor to edit the binary one the first time, and : accidently trashes it. API calls can be just as easily implimented to do : text based config files as binary ones. First, a user running a text editor on a binary config file should have no effect provided they exit the app when they realize all they see is gibberish. Second, *programming a robust API for* changing text files is much more difficult and inefficient than a structured binary format. It comes down to this: If you believe that config files should be changable by directly editing the file, then text files make sense. If you believe that config files should only be changed through a well-defined UI or GUI, then text files are not the best idea. : There are advantages to binary config files, and to text config files. You : have touched on none of the real advantages nor disadvantages of either. I think I did earlier and have again. I stated that an advantage of text config files is that they're easy for the user to edit without special tools. Disadvantages are re-stated above. The advantages of binary config files stem from the belief that config files should not be edited directly by the user, but through a UI instead. This is an OS philosophy that I support, and one that the Mac OS has traditionally supported. It is in *no way* an attack on the NeXT OS! Isn't it possible to have an open discussion of OS design without any of THIS: : And, by the way, NeXT's system administration model, NetInfo, uses a binary : database. Stop your whining and go use a NeXT system before you keep going : on and on about how bad its' going to be. Did I ever say "there are no binary config files in NeXT"? I never even *mentioned NeXT* up to this point in my post! I was clearly taking about the general idea of text config files. There's absolutely no reason to get defensive! : > An example relevant to Rhapsody (see, there *is* a connection buried : > here ;) is how TCP/IP will be handled in the new OS. Ignoring the : > ancient and ugly roots of the current Mac OS on which it runs, I'd : > take the Open Transport control panels (Modem, TCP/IP, AppleTalk, : > PPP) over a slew of .conf text files any day! I routinely switch : > between FreePPP, OT/PPP, and direct ethernet connection with a few : > flips of switches in control panels on my Mac. Try that with a Unix : > box. If you decide you want to change from a direct connection to : > PPP, you'd better hope you have the config files all set up, and : > hopefully some shell scripts to moves everything around for you. Oh, : > and you'd better not have changed the location of any of the files : > that the scripts refer to. : I don't need to switch anything to do that on my Unix box. And it wouldnt' : matter if it was NeXtstep or not. In fact, unlike you and your Mac, I can : have PPP and ethernet going at the same time. But, generally, I can fire up : PPP or close it down with one double click. That's it. Perhaps mine was a bad example, considering the Mac's limited networking ability. My point was that user interaction with OS services is less error prone when you're dealing with only one level of abstraction. My argument is that the "Mac way" of direct interaction with, say, a control panel is preferable to clicking an icon which runs an executable (or, more likely, a script on a plain Unix system) which runs a setuid exe or script that runs ifconfig which changes your network settings. : I don't need to flip : any control switches, change between system configurations, etc.. Unix is : smart enough to know what aspects of your system are dialup networking : configs and which are local networking configs. I wouldn't go so far as saying Unix is "smart enough." A few wrong CLI commands in the /dev directory and Unix would become terminally confused. That's the nature of Unix, and I really *do* like Unix. I'm just highlighting the areas where the "Unix philosophy conflicts most with the Mac philosophy. (Note: I said U-n-i-x, not N-e-X-T! :) : > And speaking of moving files, another disadvantage of text : > configuration files is the hard-coding of file paths. Even Unix : > symlinks are an example of the limitations of this scheme, although : > not directly related to text config files. Say what you want about : > the performance trade-offs of keeping track of aliases, but it's : > certainly a better system than the "I'm scared to move anything : > because everything might break" world of .INI files, et al. : Which is another reason to use Wrappers. Everything the application needs : is in the wrapper or the system libraries. Agreed. They seem like a reasonable solution, provided the practice is followed consistently (which I assume it is in the NeXT world). But what about traditional Unix apps? Are the NeXT versions .app wrappers as well? (I'm talking about things like emacs, not simple binaries like tar or gzip) : > As far as I'm concerned, a *modern* OS should be the best of both : > worlds: the superb functionality of a preemptive memory-protected : > kernel and the interface of the Mac (along with a file system that : > allows it, of course!) : Correct.. the best of both worlds, the most solid OS core and foundations, : the most usable UI, the most flexable and capable programming model. See that? We don't entirely disagree. : In otherwords, Nextstep. Err... ;) I still think there has to be some sort of compromise, here. Although the initial release of Raphsody is bound to be "straight Nextstep," I believe changes are coming and will be beneficial. : > Conclusion: : > : > Even the much-vaunted BeOS seems to suffer from file proliferation a la : > Unix (/dev/modem anyone?) Perhaps this is unavoidable and I'm being : > naive. After all, the *only* example of an OS that doesn't work this : > way is the now-ancient Mac OS. But I don't thing there's any reason to : > resign ourselves to the "me-too" world of evil OSes that require : > "Uninstallers" and that keep us captive of a bazillion fragile text : > files. There's a better way, and I only hope that in the coming years : > the people behind the Mac/NeXT OS aren't afraid to break from the past : > and give us an OS we can be proud to call "Mac." : Or proud to move on to the next generation of the Mac, invented by the same : major visionaries of the Mac project.. called "The NeXT Computer". Yes, that's another option. But why throw away what's good about 7.x? : Now, before you go though these rants again, go out and use the damn thing. : Stop arguing from a stance of total ignorance. For the umpteenth time, I *have* used Next cubes and slabs. I'm not nearly as familiar with them as I am with the Mac and Unix, however, which is why 99% of my points dealt with Mac philosophy vs. *Unix* or *Windows* philosophy (well, if Windows can be said to *have* any philosophy ;) It's posted to a NeXT group to gauge how much Unix is in NeXT! There's no reason to get defensive! I think every time an avid NeXT user reads "Unix" he or she automatically assumes that it's some dumb Mac user (also assuming that Mac users believe in computer monogomy and only use on OS ;) just assumes that "NeXT *is* Unix", and that it's the job of the NeXT user to smack some sense the poster. This is not always the case, and is certainly not the case here! -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!serv.hinet.net!netnews.hinet.net!news From: chsu@from.net Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Send 20 FREE Pages of Fax to any Fax machines in the World! Date: 8 Feb 1997 19:22:09 GMT Organization: Fax24 International, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5dijp1$nhu@netnews.hinet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tpts118.globalnet.com.tw Send Fax through the Internet. Low domestic and international rates. 20 FREE pages of Fax! Send to any Fax machines in the world! No obligation. Visit the site at: http://www.edfax.com/faxsav.htm Chris Sundres chsu@from.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!kithrup.com!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: sef@kithrup.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <5dijp1$nhu@netnews.hinet.net> Date: 8 Feb 1997 20:05:52 GMT Control: cancel <5dijp1$nhu@netnews.hinet.net> Message-ID: Sender: chsu@from.net X-Cancelled-By: sef@kithrup.com Approved: sef@kithrup.com Lines: 1 Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: Bob Foster Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 19:33:57 +0000 Organization: Symantec Corp. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <32FCD51C.3F8@worldnet.att.net> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dal9c$bd1$3@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: rfoster@symantec.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.146.225.50 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22530 comp.sys.mac.system:197999 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4014 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61041 Joel Klecker wrote: > > Hmm, I wasn't aware that "Reality Distortion Field.app" shipped with > NEXTSTEP. :-) You kidding? That's the most important feature. Bob -- Bob Foster Symantec Internet Tools #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news-out.communique.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.179.156.40!kithrup.com!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: sef@kithrup.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel <32fcdb9e.0@news.cias.net> Date: 8 Feb 1997 20:43:29 GMT Control: cancel <32fcdb9e.0@news.cias.net> Message-ID: Sender: xxxhot@*(^$#>(noreply).com X-Cancelled-By: sef@kithrup.com Approved: sef@kithrup.com Lines: 1 Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!nef.ens.fr!drakkar!jalon From: jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: problem with filter services Date: 9 Feb 1997 04:02:11 GMT Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris Lines: 84 Message-ID: <5dji83$g1q@nef.ens.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: drakkar.ens.fr Hello, i'm trying some things with the filter services bur hace some strange problems. (I'm running NS3.3) Here is my source : --- test.m #import void main(int argc, char *argv[]) { id myPb; const NXAtom *list; NXStream *stream; const char *selectedType; char *data; int length; if(argc!=4) { printf("Usage: %s FILE NEWFORMAT OUTFILE\n",argv[0]); exit(0); } myPb=[Pasteboard newByFilteringFile:argv[1]]; list=[myPb types]; if(!list) { printf("No filter available"); exit(0); } printf("available types :\n"); while(*list) { printf("%s\n",*list); if(!strcmp(argv[2],*list)) { printf("--> this one"); selectedType=*list; } list++; } if(!selectedType) { printf("%s is not a goot type\n",argv[2]); exit(0); } printf("selected type : \"%s\"\n",selectedType); [myPb readType:selectedType data:&data length:&length]; if(!data) { printf("nothing read - problem...\n"); } exit(0); } --- the goal is to "translate" a file to another possible type (the "write to file" part isn't currently in the source) by typing, e.g. : ./test foo.tiff "image format gif" foo.gif I have OmniImageFilter installed and my program outputs all the pasteboard types I want ("image format gif/bmp/...") ./test foo.tiff "NeXT TIFF v4.0 pasteboard type" foo2.tiff (not very useful : translate tiff to tiff :-) gives me a good result : (here data is not NULL) but if I try : ./test foo.tiff "image format gif" foo.gif it detects that "image format gif" is a good type but data is always NULL... why ? (in fact the only working types are "NeXT TIFF v4.0 pasteboard type" and "NXTypedFilenamePboardType:tiff" which do not require any filter services) It seems that Pasteboard know the services but doesn't want to use it ! --Julien -- Julien Jalon | Ecole normale superieure jalon@clipper.ens.fr | 45 rue d'Ulm http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/ | 75230 Paris Cedex 05 | FRANCE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 01:07:33 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dgnar$rm1$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22532 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61069 comp.sys.mac.system:198074 John Siracusa wrote: > But the central question addressed (admittedly, somewhat > sensationally) in my original post to this thread was this: is the > file system more part of the UI, or the "plumbing"? Put another way, > if the next generation Mac OS is to keep most of the Mac user > experience, can it do so while adopting the NeXT file system? The Mac approach takes a UI issue and makes it part of the filesystem, which IMHO is bad. The NeXT approach makes the UI issue part of the UI implementation. Rather than using a multi-forked filesystem to support info & resources, NeXT wrote the WorkspaceManager and the Appkit to treat bundles as files. The user experience is virtually the same: resources stay in a cohesive unit, and the user interacts with what appears to be an atomic item. Apple changed the filesystem, which resulted in persistent compatability headaches. Most of the perceived problems in reconciling the Mac and NeXT UI's and filesystems can be solved by adding some functionality into the WorkspaceManager and Appkit. Appkit changes will be adopted by all OpenStep applications and objects automatically. Even creator information could be handled this way, but on an improved, per-user basis, using some sort of database or hashtable. Each user could have their own creator code for a given file, rather than the file specifying one creator code for all users. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.eng.convex.com!seas.smu.edu!vivaldi.inoc.dl.nec.com!psinntp!psinntp!chapman.com!chapman.com!geordie From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 11:52:27 -0600 Organization: Chapman and Cutler Lines: 585 Approved: USDA Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: korper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22533 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61070 comp.sys.mac.system:198092 In article <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: :In article <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: : snip :> 2. Text configuration files : :> Also known as: the bane of "modern" OS design. : :I like them. : :> There is absolutely :> *no* excuse for text-based configuration files in a modern GUI :> operating system. Yes, they're oh-so-easy to edit from a CLI. Yes, :> they're readable by every lowly text editor. But cripes! When you :> start providing API calls to add and delete lines from a text file :> (GetProfileString(), etc.) you *know* you're barking up the wrong :> tree! : :It's not too bad. Anyway, NEXTSTEP uses the NetInfo database for most :configuration stuff.. though it also tends to manipulate config files :to make the Unix people happy. : :> I don't think there's anyone who would deny that messing with lines of :> text is more error prone even in the best conditions (i.e. no user :> modification of the file with a text editor to munge it up) simply :> because each text files are so free-form. There are no constraints of :> design to keep a badly behaved application from munging up a shared :> configuration file. : :Agreed. : :I've always thought it would be neat to use the GNU Hurd's filesystem :translators to fix this.. keep everything in a database, and have a :file translator sitting on top of the config file, so that when you read :the file it really queries the database and then prints out the text :file in the appropriate format from the result.. then things that :expect the text config files can still use them, but you can start :transitioning configuration over towards a cleaner database design. : :> An example relevant to Rhapsody (see, there *is* a connection buried :> here ;) is how TCP/IP will be handled in the new OS. Ignoring the :> ancient and ugly roots of the current Mac OS on which it runs, I'd :> take the Open Transport control panels (Modem, TCP/IP, AppleTalk, :> PPP) over a slew of .conf text files any day! I routinely switch :> between FreePPP, OT/PPP, and direct ethernet connection with a few :> flips of switches in control panels on my Mac. Try that with a Unix :> box. If you decide you want to change from a direct connection to :> PPP, you'd better hope you have the config files all set up, and :> hopefully some shell scripts to moves everything around for you. Oh, :> and you'd better not have changed the location of any of the files :> that the scripts refer to. : :NeXT's admin tools do a good job of manipulating the config files. You :never have to touch most of them yourselves. (Apple is working on :changing that "most" to "all".) As for changing the location of the :configuration files, I have no idea why you would do that. : :> And speaking of moving files, another disadvantage of text :> configuration files is the hard-coding of file paths. Even Unix :> symlinks are an example of the limitations of this scheme, although :> not directly related to text config files. Say what you want about :> the performance trade-offs of keeping track of aliases, snip Not to mention that his beloved Open/Transport PPP has configuration files for the modems that look like the following, and the only pseudo user interface to it is an alpha application that is hard to locate. begin Apple copyrighted information which is freely availible on their web site. ! USRobotics Universal ! CUSTOM SCRIPT due to "NO DIAL TONE" responce ! Author: Kris Kreutzman ! ! Copyright: ="c" 1991-1996 Apple Computer, Inc. All Rights Reserved. ! ! revision history: ! v2.1 as shipped with the ARA 2.1 ! v2.2 update CARRIER/CONNECT parsing ! ! 'mlts' resource info for this modem: ! byte 1 == 01 -> modem HAS built-in error correction protocols ! byte 2 == 01 -> modem HAS built-in data compression protocols ! byte 3 == 33 -> max number of chars in varstr 7 ! byte 4 == 33 -> max number of chars in varstr 8 ! byte 5 == 33 -> max number of chars in varstr 9 ! @ORIGINATE @ANSWER ! ! ---- Initial modem setup ---- ! ! Set serial port speed depending upon the compression flag ! A higher rate with compression on to handle expanded data from the modem ! A lower rate closer to the DCE when compression is off ! ifstr 5 1 "0" serreset 57600, 0, 8, 1 jump 2 ! @LABEL 1 serreset 38400, 0, 8, 1 ! @LABEL 2 hsreset 0 0 0 0 0 0 settries 0 ! ! Get the modem's attention ! matchclr matchstr 1 3 "OK\13\10" write "AT\13" matchread 30 ! @LABEL 3 ! ! Setup the modem for the following: ! Reset to factory settings ! Standard compression/reliablity ! Lock serial port speed ! Serial port hardware handshaking, turn off software handshaking ! Verbose responces and compression/protocol results ! CONNECT returns DCE speed ! Turn off answering ! Reset or return to command mode on DTR toggle (optional) ! pause 5 matchclr matchstr 1 4 "OK\13\10" matchstr 2 101 "ERROR\13\10" write "AT&FE0&D2&H1&R1&B1Q0X4&A3S7=75S0=0\13" matchread 30 inctries iftries 3 101 ! ! Reset the Modem on setup failure ! DTRClear pause 5 DTRSet flush jump 3 ! ! @LABEL 4 ! Varstring 4 , reliable link protocol: ! = 0, handled by computer (ARAP) ! = 1, handled by modem (PPP) ! = 2, MNP10 protocol (Cellular protocol, no longer supported) ifstr 4 5 "1" ifstr 4 5 "2" ! ! Varstring 4 == 0, turn off reliable link protocol in modem (ARAP) matchclr matchstr 1 9 "OK\13\10" write "AT&M0\13" matchread 30 jump 101 ! ! @LABEL 5 ! Varstring 5, compression protocol: ! = 0, handled by computer ! = 1, handled by modem ifstr 5 9 "1" ! ! Varstring 5 == 0, turn off compression protocol in modem. matchclr matchstr 1 9 "OK\13\10" write "AT&K0\13" matchread 30 jump 101 ! ! @LABEL 9 ! Varstring 2, modem speaker: ! = 0, speaker off ! = 1, speaker on ifstr 2 13 "1" pause 5 matchclr matchstr 1 13 "OK\13\10" write "ATM0\13" matchread 30 jump 101 ! ! Modem ready, wait for a call or originate a call ! @LABEL 13 ifANSWER 32 ! ! ! ---- Originating a call ---- ! ! Varstring 6, dialing mode: ! = 0, normal dialing ! = 1, blind dialing ! = 2, manual dialing ifstr 6 17 "1" ifstr 6 15 "2" jump 19 ! @LABEL 15 ! Display ASK dialog with message. Goto label 107 if dialog canceled. ASK 2 "Pick up the phone & dial ^1. When the phone rings, click OK then hang up." 107 note "Manual dialing initiated" 3 ! X1 to ignore dialtone & busy, D to dial, \^ generates data tone write "ATX1D\^\13" jump 32 ! @LABEL 17 note "Dialing without tone" 3 matchclr matchstr 1 19 "OK\13\10" ! X1 to ignore dialtone & busy write "ATX1\13" matchread 30 jump 101 ! ! @LABEL 19 ! Display the full dialstring contained in Varstring 1 note "Dialing ^1" 3 ! ! Varstrings 7, 8 and 9, contain dialstring fragments ! Long phone numbers may need to be split into smaller groups ! for the modem to use ! ! Varstring 3: "p" for pulse & "t" for tone dialing ! Varstring 8 == blank (dialstring in varstring 7) ! Varstring 9 == blank (dialstring in varstrings 7 & 8) ! Otherwise (dialstring in varstrings 7, 8 & 9) ! \^ is added to the dialstring to force the modem to generate a data tone ifstr 8 27 " " ifstr 9 24 " " ! ! Write dialstring in varstrings 7, 8 & 9 matchclr matchstr 1 21 "OK\13\10" write "ATD^3^7;\13" matchread 400 jump 101 @LABEL 21 matchclr matchstr 1 22 "OK\13\10" write "ATD^3^8;\13" matchread 400 jump 101 @LABEL 22 write "ATD^3^9\13" jump 32 ! ! @LABEL 24 ! Write dialstring in varstrings 7 & 8 matchclr matchstr 1 25 "OK\13\10" write "ATD^3^7;\13" matchread 400 jump 101 @LABEL 25 write "ATD^3^8\13" jump 32 ! @LABEL 27 ! Write dialstring in varstring 7 write "ATD^3^7\13" ! ! ! ---- Connection responce ---- ! ! The following section will parse modem responces of two types: ! 1) CARRIER xxx, PROTOCOL: yyy, COMPRESSION: yyy, CONNECT xxx ! 2) CONNECT xxx/yyy ! @LABEL 32 settries 0 @LABEL 33 matchclr matchstr 1 81 "RING\13\10" matchstr 2 102 "NO DIAL TONE\13\10" matchstr 3 103 "NO CARRIER" matchstr 4 103 "ERROR\13\10" matchstr 5 104 "BUSY\13\10" matchstr 6 105 "NO ANSWER\13\10" matchstr 7 35 "CONNECT" matchstr 8 34 "CARRIER" matchstr 9 62 "PROTOCOL: LAP" matchstr 10 62 "PROTOCOL: MNP" matchstr 11 62 "PROTOCOL: ALT" matchstr 12 67 "COMPRESSION: V" matchstr 13 67 "COMPRESSION: MNP5" matchstr 14 67 "COMPRESSION: CLASS" matchread 700 ifANSWER 32 jump 105 ! ! CARRIER parsing ! @LABEL 34 jsr 38 inctries jump 33 ! ! CONNECT parsing - do not parse rate if CARRIER seen ! @LABEL 35 iftries 1 61 jsr 38 jump 61 ! ! Parse CONNECT/CARRIER rate subroutine ! 2400 and 4800 have two entries each ! to distinguish them from 24000 and 48000 ! @LABEL 38 matchclr matchstr 1 40 "2400\13" matchstr 2 40 "2400/" matchstr 3 41 "4800\13" matchstr 4 41 "4800/" matchstr 5 42 "7200" matchstr 6 43 "9600" matchstr 7 44 "12000" matchstr 8 45 "14400" matchstr 9 46 "16800" matchstr 10 47 "19200" matchstr 11 48 "21600" matchstr 12 49 "24000" matchstr 13 50 "26400" matchstr 14 51 "28800" matchstr 15 52 "31200" matchstr 16 53 "33600" matchread 10 jump 59 ! ! -- Connection rates -- ! CommunicatingAt informs ARA of the raw modem to modem ! connection speed. ! @LABEL 40 note "Communicating at 2400 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 2400 jump 60 ! @LABEL 41 note "Communicating at 4800 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 4800 jump 60 ! @LABEL 42 note "Communicating at 7200 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 7200 jump 60 ! @LABEL 43 note "Communicating at 9600 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 9600 jump 60 ! @LABEL 44 note "Communicating at 12400 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 12400 jump 60 ! @LABEL 45 note "Communicating at 14400 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 14400 jump 60 ! @LABEL 46 note "Communicating at 16800 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 16800 jump 60 ! @LABEL 47 note "Communicating at 19200 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 19200 jump 60 ! @LABEL 48 note "Communicating at 21600 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 21600 jump 60 ! @LABEL 49 note "Communicating at 24000 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 24000 jump 60 ! @LABEL 50 note "Communicating at 26400 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 26400 jump 60 ! @LABEL 51 note "Communicating at 28800 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 28800 jump 60 ! @LABEL 52 note "Communicating at 31200 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 31200 jump 60 ! @LABEL 53 note "Communicating at 33600 bps." 2 CommunicatingAt 33600 jump 60 ! @LABEL 59 note "Communicating at an unknown rate." 2 ! @LABEL 60 return ! ! Look for reliablilty and compression results ! after the CONNECT rate. ! @LABEL 61 matchclr matchstr 1 63 "LAPM" matchstr 2 63 "REL" matchstr 3 63 "ARQ" matchstr 4 68 "COMP/" matchstr 5 68 "COMP\13" matchstr 6 63 "V42/" matchstr 7 63 "V42\13" matchstr 8 68 "V42BIS" matchstr 9 68 "V42bis" matchstr 10 63 "MNP\13" matchstr 11 68 "MNP5" matchstr 12 70 "\10" matchread 10 jump 70 ! -- Modem error correction link negotiation -- ! Userhook 2 informs ARA that a modem-to-modem error ! correcting protocol has been negotiated ! ! @LABEL 62 note "Modem Reliable Link Established." 2 userhook 2 jump 33 ! @LABEL 63 note "Modem Reliable Link Established." 2 userhook 2 jump 61 ! ! -- Compression negotiation -- ! Userhook 3 informs ARA that a modem-to-modem compression ! protocol has been negotiated ! @LABEL 67 note "Modem Compression Established." 2 userhook 3 jump 33 ! @LABEL 68 note "Modem Compression Established." 2 userhook 3 jump 61 ! ! ! -- Normal exit after "CONNECT" -- ! ! This modem has been setup to do CTS handshaking, ! and we assume that a CTS handshaking cable is being used. ! @LABEL 70 ! Turn on CTS handshaking. HSReset 0 1 0 0 0 0 ! ifANSWER 71 pause 30 @LABEL 71 exit 0 ! ! ! ---- Answer calls ---- ! ! A RING result from the modem and in ANSWERING mode ! claims the serial port and answering the phone ! @LABEL 81 ifORIGINATE 32 userhook 1 note "Answering phone..." 2 write "ATA\13" jump 32 ! ! ! ---- Hang up and reset modem ---- ! @HANGUP @LABEL 90 settries 0 HSReset 0 0 0 0 0 0 ! @LABEL 92 ! Escape from data to command mode matchclr matchstr 1 96 "OK\13\10" write "+++" matchread 20 ! @LABEL 94 ! Force a hangup matchclr matchstr 1 98 "NO CARRIER\13\10" matchstr 2 98 "OK\13\10" matchstr 3 98 "ERROR\13\10" matchstr 4 98 "0\13\10" write "ATH\13" matchread 30 ! ! Try to get control of the modem by toggling DTR DTRClear pause 5 DTRSet flush ! ! Try the hangup sequence three times otherwise declare and error inctries iftries 3 101 jump 92 ! @LABEL 96 ! Pause between data and command mode pause 50 jump 94 ! ! @LABEL 98 ! Recall the factory settings pause 15 matchclr matchstr 1 99 "OK\13\10" write "AT&F\13" matchread 30 jump 101 ! @LABEL 99 exit 0 ! ! ---- Error messages ----- ! ! Modem Not Responding @LABEL 101 exit -6019 ! ! No Dial Tone @LABEL 102 exit -6020 ! ! No Carrier or Error @LABEL 103 exit -6021 ! ! Busy @LABEL 104 exit -6022 ! ! No Answer @LABEL 105 exit -6023 ! ! User Cancellation @LABEL 107 exit -6008 -- Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com ********************************************************************* * The text above should in no way be construed to represent the * * opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. * ********************************************************************* #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!droleary From: droleary@alpha.temporal.org (Doc O'Leary) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 9 Feb 1997 09:19:13 GMT Organization: University of Minnesota Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> Reply-To: olearydr@freenet.msp.mn.us NNTP-Posting-Host: pub-3-f-89.dialup.umn.edu X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.8.4 (BETA) UNIX) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22534 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61071 comp.sys.mac.system:198097 On 07 Feb 1997 15:37:01 -0800, Stephen Peters wrote: >Embedding type information into the filename is really a separate >issue (and one which can, again, be hidden from the user if the >programmers desire). Another (more attractive, in my opinion) option is to inspect the contents of the file to determine the type. This is done all the time with the file command in Unix. Some X file managers use it to type files, and I think it would be a good thing to add to the Finder/Browser of the new Mac OS. --------- Doc -- Copyright 1997 by Doc O'Leary. Author of the wildly unsuccessful "DOS and Windows for People Who Still Have a Clue" #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Christian Kuhtz Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 9 Feb 1997 10:08:20 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5dk7mk$d2g@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ftc-co1-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Feb 09 4:08:20 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22535 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61074 comp.sys.mac.system:198115 droleary@alpha.temporal.org (Doc O'Leary) wrote: >On 07 Feb 1997 15:37:01 -0800, Stephen Peters wrote: > >>Embedding type information into the filename is really a separate >>issue (and one which can, again, be hidden from the user if the >>programmers desire). > >Another (more attractive, in my opinion) option is to inspect the contents >of the file to determine the type. This is done all the time with the >file command in Unix. Some X file managers use it to type files, and I think >it would be a good thing to add to the Finder/Browser of the new Mac OS. It would be a really bad thing because it will suck rocks in networked environments, just like the current file managers that do that already. That's one feature I hope I will never see in Rhapsody. -- Christian Kuhtz (personal) (work) ".com is a mistake." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!Ireland.EU.net!maths.tcd.ie!web3.tcd.ie!dmgarvey From: dmgarvey@tcd.ie (Daire Garvey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 11:49:52 GMT Organization: University of Dublin, Trinity College Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5df4t0$mki@web3.tcd.ie> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alf2.tcd.ie X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #8 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22536 comp.sys.mac.system:198119 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61075 In <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: > Let me say it more simply: as much as you and I find perverse > joy in the nooks and crannies of a Unix world: > > *** MAC USERS WILL NEVER ACCEPT UNIX *** Don't be daft. There will be as much UNIX on the face of Rhapsody as there is VMS on the face of WindowsNT, now shut up! jeez.. D. -- daire@netsoc.tcd.ie ----------------+-------- http://www.netsoc.tcd.ie/~daire | "Heck! If I had 2 grand, | - 3rd Year Computer Science. I'd Be a developer too!!" | - DU NetSoc Support Officer. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!prim.demon.co.uk!dave From: Dave Griffiths Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Arbitary precision arithmetic? Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:03:21 GMT Organization: 3Wiz - World Wide Web Consultants Message-ID: <1997Feb9.120321.1665@prim.demon.co.uk> X-Mail2News-User: news@prim.demon.co.uk X-Mail2News-Path: relay-7.mail.demon.net!relay-6.mail.demon.net!prim.demon.co.uk Lines: 9 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22537 comp.sys.next.software:27948 Hi, does anyone know of a simple maths library that will let you do arbitary precision integer arithmetic from C/Obj-C on NeXTStep? I found something called "pari" but it has a Sun3 assembler file that doesn't compile. Thanks, Dave #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!news.stealth.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Arbitary precision arithmetic? Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:41:18 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <1997Feb9.120321.1665@prim.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <1997Feb9.120321.1665@prim.demon.co.uk> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:27950 comp.sys.next.programmer:22538 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 9-Feb-97 Arbitary precision arithmetic? by Dave Griffiths@prim.demo > Hi, does anyone know of a simple maths library that will let you do > arbitary precision integer arithmetic from C/Obj-C on NeXTStep? Sure-- libmp.a, documented in 'man mp'. However, you'd be well advised to use the GNU MP library, libgmp.a, since the GNU implementation is significantly better than the stock Unix version.. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-hub.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!metro.atlanta.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 19:59:34 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <32FE72F6.4C96@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22539 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61120 comp.sys.mac.system:198262 Doc O'Leary wrote: > > On 07 Feb 1997 15:37:01 -0800, Stephen Peters wrote: > > >Embedding type information into the filename is really a separate > >issue (and one which can, again, be hidden from the user if the > >programmers desire). > > Another (more attractive, in my opinion) option is to inspect the contents > of the file to determine the type. This is done all the time with the > file command in Unix. Some X file managers use it to type files, and I think > it would be a good thing to add to the Finder/Browser of the new Mac OS. It'd be a nice backup system for files which have had their extension munged. If used for all files, it might get a little slow. Some caching might help that, though. But what if you want to name two files the same? It's not uncommon for me to have two files in the same directory with the same name but different extensions. For instance, splash.riff and splash.bmp. Splash.riff is a working file, splash.bmp is a duplicate that is used in an application. The riff file is required since bmp's don't support Painter floaters. Take away extensions and you either have two files named splash - if duplicates are allowed. If duplicates are not allowed, you'll end up with splash_riff and splash_bmp or some such, which puts the extension back in anyway. How does the Mac handle duplicates? It's been too long since I used one. I'm thinking that you can't have two files of different types in the same directory with the same name, but I could be wrong. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:26:35 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 30 Message-ID: <199702092226354712026@roxboro-189.interpath.net> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-189.interpath.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22540 comp.sys.mac.system:198274 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4016 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61124 Gregory Loren Hansen wrote: ] In article , ] Paul Connelly wrote: ] >In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, ] >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: ] > ] >> Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. ] > ] >The shell is the best part of UNIX though. The tools that come ] >with the shell are great. Just get rid of that horrid directory ] >structure. (Let's see, is that program in /bin, or was it /usr/bin, ] >or /usr/local/bin, or....?) ] ] Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for ] Mac? I may or may not have a document about Schrdinger that I'd like ] to look up. But I have no idea where it might be, and I'm sure it ] would be buried in file with a bunch of other stuff, and the name ] would have no relation to the subject. And I don't know where to get ] it from an outside source. I've made a few requests but got no ] response. Use the sys7's Find File, click on the drop down menu on the left while holding down the Option key, select contents and then set the file's probable type and creator - size to if you have a estimate. You can't have regular expressions but you SHOULD be able to find what you're looking for. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:26:32 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 56 Message-ID: <199702092226324711866@roxboro-189.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB8651.243F@worldbank.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-189.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22541 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61125 Stefano Pagiola wrote: ] Alan Jenks wrote: ] > One of the things that makes the Mac a joy to use is that I can ] > create a file in an application and name it anything I choose. ] > Double click the file and the application that created it will ] > launch and open it. ] > ] > On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After ] > installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created ] > files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double ] > click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others ] > with Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with ] > either one. ] > ] > What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent ] > this step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? ] ] The OS keeps track of all the filetypes an app can deal with. Through ] the Workspace's inspector, you can specify which app will, by default ] open a given file type. But in any given instance you can over-ride ] this default by either double-clicking on a different app within in ] the workspace inspector or command-dragging the file onto that app's ] icon. ] ] So, yes, all files with the same extension will by default open in a ] given app (you can't have some opening in one app and some opening in ] another) but there are easy and quick ways to over-ride the default ] whenever you choose to. ] ] Having said that, it seems to me that it ought to be simple to have a ] way to add particular extensions to the OS and tell it which app to ] direct files with those extensions to. That way you wouldn't be ] dependent on the specific extensions your app came with. In the ] example above, you could just customize your VC files to end with .vc ] instead of .c, and tell the OS to send any such files to VC rather ] than Borland. There is a freeware app that lets you do this under ] NeXTSTEP, but its not part of the OS. The Macs way is a better way to do this, it just needs a little extension. Have a type and creator associated with each file, established by the files creator, and allow the user to override that with something similar to Macintosh Easy Open. The problem with MEO is that it doesn't allow you to do the overriding when the creating applications is available and it doesn't allow you to do something like say that *all* TEXT files are to be opened by 'My favorite text editor'. It'd be nice if you could have it open MFTE as the default for all TEXT files, all TEXT files whose creator is unavailable, or for only some TEXT files - with a list of creators to override. MEO could be modified to work properly easily enough - in fact I'm tempted to send this in as a suggestion to Apple for Sys 7, how would you do this with NeXT? -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!news.dal.ca!or.psychology.dal.ca!jc From: jc@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 10 Feb 1997 04:11:06 GMT Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5dm74q$906@News.Dal.Ca> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FE72F6.4C96@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: or.psychology.dal.ca X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22542 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61127 comp.sys.mac.system:198286 Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: : Doc O'Leary wrote: : But what if you want to name two files the same? It's not uncommon : for me to have two files in the same directory with the same name : but different extensions. For instance, splash.riff and splash.bmp. Those aren't the same name. Why would one ever want to use EXACTLY the same name for two files on purpose. I hope no one ever comes up with a file system that allows that. I'd hate to have to follow some of the programmers I've seen in a project on such a file system. : not allowed, you'll end up with splash_riff and splash_bmp or some : such, which puts the extension back in anyway. But it does not reinstate the necessity for extensions or the limitations they engender. : How does the Mac handle duplicates? It's been too long since I : used one. I'm thinking that you can't have two files of different : types in the same directory with the same name, but I could be : wrong. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? You could always use exactly the same name but add a blank space at the end of one of them. After that is done how are you going to easily tell them apart? (OK, the one with the space will be later in list view and HOPEFULLY they will have different icons in icon view). This was the worst argument in this thread yet. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ John Christie "You aren't free because you CAN choose - only if you DO choose." "All you are is the decisions you make. If you let circumstances make them for you then what you are becomes very easy to estimate." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!usc!newshub.cts.com!nspace2.cts.com!user From: nspace@cts.com (Jerry Stratton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 19:21:07 -0800 Organization: Negative Space Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FE72F6.4C96@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: nspace2.cts.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22543 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61128 comp.sys.mac.system:198289 In article <32FE72F6.4C96@subsequent.com>, jon@subsequent.com wrote: >How does the Mac handle duplicates? It's been too long since I >used one. I'm thinking that you can't have two files of different >types in the same directory with the same name, but I could be >wrong. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Duplicate filenames in the same folder? Not allowed, type notwithstanding. While I did use to see that in DOS fairly often, it was usually considered a bug :*) The Mac stores all sorts of useful information in the header; the two that seem to be important for this discussion are the creator and the type. For example, if I save a Microsoft Word file as rich text format, the creator is MSWD, and the type is *RTF (or something like it). If a user double-clicks a file with those codes, the Mac first tries to open the creator (MSWD). If the creator doesn't exist, it then queries other applications and compiles a list of those that claim to understand *RTF. Depending on the user's settings, it will then provide the user with the list, and ask which one is most appropriate, or it will remember what the user chose the *last* time they tried to open a *RTF file and just do it. This is also how the Mac knows how to handle visual feedback on drag-and-drop. If you drag a document over an application, you'll get the darkening feedback if the application claims to understand that file type. Jerry jerry@hoboes.com http://www.hoboes.com/ e-mail help@hoboes.com What Your Children Are Doing: http://www.hoboes.com/Children/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!biosci!news.alaska.edu!uas-du-01-03.jun.alaska.edu!user From: anti_email_spam@real.address.in.sig (M) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 19:03:21 -0900 Organization: UAS Lines: 171 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: uas-du-01-03.jun.alaska.edu X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22544 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61132 comp.sys.mac.system:198294 In <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > In <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: [snip] > > 1. Hiding directories isn't the same as "hidden" resource forks. [snip] > But NeXT moved on from that becuase it is less flexible than Wrappers. By > opening the file into multiple files that _can_ be accessed by advanced > users, you can change sections of the code without any fancy tools. Things ^^^^^^^^^^^ Gee, all these years of using it, and I didn't know ResEdit was such a Fancy Tool. If you turn things 90 degrees and look at them, you could see that having to fire up a CLI to get into those wrappers is just another case of having to use a Fancy Tool. :) > like UI elements, and optional Language localization features (which Gil > Amelio has already said he wants to take advantage of). To the GUI user, a > Wrapper looks EXACTLY like a file, except that it's executable. The only > difference is to the CLI user (which you probably wont be anyway). The fact One nice thing about resource forks is that any file can have one, which is quite useful. For example, BBEdit (a popular text editor) saves some file state stuff (window size & position, location scrolled to, and document specific preferences) to resources while keeping the vanilla ascii text in the data fork. The file type is set to 'TEXT' so any app that can deal with plain ascii will open the file flawlessly, without any file conversion or any need to understand BBEdit's custom resources. When copying the text file to another platform, the resource fork is ignored. This is just one example. Many apps that deal with common file types (text, pict, jpeg, gif, tiff, eps, etc.) use the resource fork to store extra info useful for that app (or any others that recognize the same resource types), without sacrificing the portability of the file. Now, getting to my point here. . . . 1. You seem to imply that only executables are "wrappable". 2. Even if that is not the case (or it is changed for Rhapsody), I WILL be using the CLI from time to time. Having all my BBEdit files (etc.) really be directories containing several files would be, at best, cumbersome to work with. > that folders and Wrappers are both implimented with the same file system > element is just that.. an IMPLIMENTATION DETAIL. It does not change the user > experience ONE BIT, unless you become advanced enough to appreciate the > dynamic configurability and extensability of Wrappers (you could, for > example, make a business of just adding multi-language support to apps that > don't have it.. and you wouldn't need to have access to any special code from > teh application vendor.. just the normal installed application -- because the > wrapper is extensible, dynamic and HIERARCHICAL). Well, I can modify any app on my drive right now without any "special code" from the application vendor. Most Mac apps have any data that needs to be localized in standard, easily editable resource types. I expect the multi-language support in NeXTstep may be much better than the current Mac model, and if so I welcome it with open arms. But, this is really more of an issue of different API's and has nothing to do with what we are talking about here. You _seemed_ to imply that a Mac user couldn't freely modify or add new resources on their own (which is false). And yes, I do get your point with that last word in all caps -- since wrappers are really just directories the ability to create subdirectories within them is very cool. I just would hate to see the benefits of the current Mac resource model thrown out completely. Perhaps in Rhapsody Apple/NeXT will modify the current NeXT system to give us a bit of the best of both worlds. They're going to have to do something eventually to accommodate the Sys 7 "blue box", unless System 7 era files will only be able to exist on a separate partition using the old Mac file system. > > 2. Text configuration files > > > > Also known as: the bane of "modern" OS design. There is absolutely > > *no* excuse for text-based configuration files in a modern GUI > > operating system. Yes, they're oh-so-easy to edit from a CLI. Yes, > > they're readable by every lowly text editor. But cripes! When you > > start providing API calls to add and delete lines from a text file > > (GetProfileString(), etc.) you *know* you're barking up the wrong > > tree! > > > > I don't think there's anyone who would deny that messing with lines of > > text is more error prone even in the best conditions (i.e. no user > > modification of the file with a text editor to munge it up) simply > > because each text files are so free-form. There are no constraints of > > design to keep a badly behaved application from munging up a shared > > configuration file. In this scenario, it's easy to see why there'd be > > API calls! It minimizes the possibility of programmer error. But > > that's just treating the symptoms! > > I will be the first to deny this. Any application can trash any unprotected > config file no matter what format it is in. And binary config files are no > less error prone to novice users. In fact, they may be more so, as the > person fires up a text editor to edit the binary one the first time, and > accidently trashes it. This never happens on the Mac because most config files have the file type set to 'pref' with the creator code set to whatever uses them. If Joe Newbie double-clicks on the file it will try to launch the creator, but the file will not actually open in the app. Similarly, if the user is looking at the directory containing the pref file using the app's normal open dialog, the pref file won't be shown. (The same as with any other file types the app doesn't know how to open.) There are easy ways for a knowledgeable user to get into those files if they want to, but for novice users it is virtually bulletproof. > . . . . API calls can be just as easily implimented to do > text based config files as binary ones. > > There are advantages to binary config files, and to text config files. You > have touched on none of the real advantages nor disadvantages of either. Try > again. Mac users tend to prefer binary config files because: a. To protect them from the typical user the file type is usually not 'TEXT' anyway (even if it is ascii based). b. If saved in resources, settings which for one reason or another are not available to users in "control panels" or an app's dialogs can be easily edited in ResEdit. TMPL resources are templates that describe the format of a resource, allowing binary configuration resources to be edited using the GUI. Individual bits to be toggled show up as nicely labeled "radio buttons", strings & numbers have their own edit fields (again, labeled so you know what parameter you're editing). This makes them easy to edit, nearly impossible for the user to screw up the format, and smaller than ascii config files. [snip] > > As far as I'm concerned, a *modern* OS should be the best of both > > worlds: the superb functionality of a preemptive memory-protected > > kernel and the interface of the Mac (along with a file system that > > allows it, of course!) > > Correct.. the best of both worlds, the most solid OS core and foundations, > the most usable UI, the most flexable and capable programming model. In > otherwords, Nextstep. Yes, Nextstep . . . with an overhaul. > > Conclusion: > > > > Even the much-vaunted BeOS seems to suffer from file proliferation a la > > Unix (/dev/modem anyone?) Perhaps this is unavoidable and I'm being > > naive. After all, the *only* example of an OS that doesn't work this > > way is the now-ancient Mac OS. But I don't thing there's any reason to > > resign ourselves to the "me-too" world of evil OSes that require > > "Uninstallers" and that keep us captive of a bazillion fragile text > > files. There's a better way, and I only hope that in the coming years > > the people behind the Mac/NeXT OS aren't afraid to break from the past > > and give us an OS we can be proud to call "Mac." > > Or proud to move on to the next generation of the Mac, invented by the same > major visionaries of the Mac project.. called "The NeXT Computer". > Obviously Apple finnaly realized that Jobs was right with the changes he > wanted to make the Mac, and are now going to incorporate them. And there are changes that need to be made to NeXTstep. It's not a sacred cow, is it? > Now, before you go though these rants again, go out and use the damn thing. > Stop arguing from a stance of total ignorance. Now, before you go though these rants again, you need to have a better understanding of what these Mac users don't want to _lose_ in the next MacOS. ---< jsmdt@acad1.alaska.edu >------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.pbi.net!news5.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 9 Feb 1997 22:10:32 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5dme4o$ave@crl.crl.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22545 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61136 comp.sys.mac.system:198304 In article , M wrote: >> But NeXT moved on from that becuase it is less flexible than Wrappers. By >> opening the file into multiple files that _can_ be accessed by advanced >> users, you can change sections of the code without any fancy tools. Things > ^^^^^^^^^^^ >Gee, all these years of using it, and I didn't know ResEdit was such a >Fancy Tool. If you turn things 90 degrees and look at them, you could see >that having to fire up a CLI to get into those wrappers is just another case >of having to use a Fancy Tool. :) 1. Compared to nothing, anything is fancy. 2. You don't need to drop down to a CLI to get into a wrapper. >This is just one example. Many apps that deal with common file types (text, >pict, jpeg, gif, tiff, eps, etc.) use the resource fork to store extra info >useful for that app (or any others that recognize the same resource types), >without sacrificing the portability of the file. You shouldn't mention forked files and portability in the same sentence without a negation in there somewhere. >1. You seem to imply that only executables are "wrappable". It's not the case. Datafiles can be wrapped as well. > >2. Even if that is not the case (or it is changed for Rhapsody), I WILL be > using the CLI from time to time. Having all my BBEdit files (etc.) really > be directories containing several files would be, at best, cumbersome to > work with. There's more than one way to skin a cat. The window location and size might be kept in a per-user defaults database. -- Don McGregor | Mistakes were made. mcgredo@crl.com | #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!news.icm.edu.pl!hammer.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 04:04:18 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22546 comp.sys.mac.system:198313 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4019 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61137 In article , Phetsy Calderon wrote: >In article <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: > >> In article , > >> Speaking of which, is there anything like a find/grep combination for Mac? > >Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you >guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files. I believe it's in the Utilities >folder, but if you haven't already, just download the >file. Path is /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. Search this file to >find MacGREP's location. That sounds great. Except I'm not really sure what to do with that path. I tried putting an "ftp:" in front of it, but Netscape says the connection was refused. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Randy Thelen" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 06:54:45 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 112 Message-ID: <01bc171f$45774280$ceec1fcc@rthelen.ix.netcom.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ncr-us9-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Feb 09 10:54:45 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22547 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61140 comp.sys.mac.system:198319 M wrote in article ... > In <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > > In <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: > Gee, all these years of using it, and I didn't know ResEdit was such a > Fancy Tool. ResEdit is a lousy tool. I'm a Mac Fanatic and a developer of Mac Software. I despise having to use ResEdit. Although it's "fun" to get into a program and tiddle bits, it's not the way I want my customers to experience my software. > > like UI elements, and optional Language localization features (which Gil > > Amelio has already said he wants to take advantage of). To the GUI user, a > > Wrapper looks EXACTLY like a file, except that it's executable. The only > > difference is to the CLI user (which you probably wont be anyway). The fact > > One nice thing about resource forks is that any file can have one, which is > quite useful. Resource forks are a means to an end in some cases and an end in other. First case: The resource fork allows an application to store meta-data about the file with the file. In your example, you cited a text-editor storing window position and document preferences with the file. I think we can all agree that having file preferences on a per-file basis is pretty cool. Further, this data is automatically copied when the file is copied from place to place. That's great! In the second case, Macintosh applications have traditionally stored their M68000 executable code in the resource fork. Which is, if you really think about, a pretty unusual thing. Further, the Macintosh 'fat' applications store their PowerPC data in the data fork of the application. Which, if you remember, broke some applications which actually stored their preference data in the data fork of themselves. So, what we're seeing here are two of the many uses for multiple forks. A robust volume format that allows for multiple forks (HFS and NTFS are two good examples) is a desirable thing to have. However, FileSystems (NFS and UNIX's inode based FileSystem) which are populare in the networked world do not address multiple forks. If Apple had adopted NeXT six years ago and introduced a version of NeXT running on a multiple fork volume format, it may have encouraged UNIX implementations to adopt additional APIs which utilize multiple forks. Unfortunately that didn't happen and the UNIX centric data model of a single fork file has become the de-facto standard. It's not a bummer. It's reality. > Well, I can modify any app on my drive right now without any "special code" > from the application vendor. Most Mac apps have any data that needs to > be localized in standard, easily editable resource types. Umm, I must not have understood what you meant. I do believe ResEdit qualifies as "special code" by virtue of the fact that it is not installed when a system release is installed. Real customers don't have and should never have to have ResEdit. > I just would hate to see the benefits of the current Mac > resource model thrown out completely. Me too. I'd love to just close my eyes and wait and see what pops out in 18 months. But even blinking making me anxious about what's changed in the world around me. > Perhaps in Rhapsody Apple/NeXT will > modify the current NeXT system to give us a bit of the best of both worlds. I love my Mac as much as it sounds you love yours. But, I do not want to approach this with the "let's modify the NeXT system to do [xyz]." I'm hoping the approach taken by all involed is, "here's what customers want, here's what we have to work with, here's what can be modified to create a solution." > They're going to have to do something eventually to accommodate the Sys 7 > "blue box". Yep, they sure are. And I hope they do a good job. > This never happens on the Mac ... Careful, there is no evil that never happens on the Mac. > There are easy ways for a knowledgeable user to get into those files if they > want to, but for novice users it is virtually bulletproof. Bulletproof works. > Mac users tend to prefer binary config files because: Mmm. I think this is putting the cart before the horse. Mac users want easy control over the behavior of their system (where system may mean the O/S, their Tax software, their internet connectivity, etc.). Mac users don't really care how it gets done. In fact, if a Mac users has to know whether its a binary file or a text file, the system designer failed. > Yes, Nextstep . . . with an overhaul. Yes, Macintosh ... with an overhaul. > And there are changes that need to be made to NeXTstep. And there are changes that need to be made to Macintosh. > It's not a sacred cow, is it? Which Mac or Next? Oh! Neither. > > Now, before you go though these rants again, go out and use the > > damn thing. Stop arguing from a stance of total ignorance. > > Now, before you go though these rants again, you need to have a better > understanding of what these Mac users don't want to _lose_ in the next > MacOS. It's amazing how much alike we all sound. Friends? -- Randy Thelen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Randy Thelen" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 07:06:13 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 9 Message-ID: <01bc1720$e0f3d600$ceec1fcc@rthelen.ix.netcom.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <5dlvvo$149$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ncr-us9-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Feb 09 11:06:13 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22548 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61142 comp.sys.mac.system:198322 > A horror story from NT 4.0: NT 4.0 is a horror story! Seriously, I use NT everyday on a dual-processor PowerPC machine. It's got its strengths. -- Randy Thelen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 02:08:56 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5dlvvo$149$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22549 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61143 comp.sys.mac.system:198324 In article <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu>, John Siracusa wrote: \ As a follow up to my own post, let me just add this: \ File name extensions as the OS-wide method of \ file type recognition: JUST SAY NO \ I could post a whole other rant on why the file extension \ concept should be thrown in the same bin as punch cards, \ but I'll leave it at that for now... File name extensions are good in _some_ circumstances. I use SAS. SAS programs are TEXT files. When SAS runs, it produces a log of what it's done (a TEXT file) and a output file containing results (also a TEXT file). It helps a lot to be able to have myprogram.sas, myprogram.log, and myprogram.lst to indicated which is which, given that the fundamental underlying files are all of the same type. A horror story from NT 4.0: SAS registers .sas, .log, and .lst files when it is installed. By default, NT hides the extensions when it's showing files of known types. Thus, in the above example, I'd have three files named "myprogram" showing in the directory window, and I'd have to be able to decipher the icons to figure out which was my program, which was the log file, and which was the list file. When file names and extensions are of fixed, short length (e.g. 8.3) extensions as file-type indicators are a pain in the ass. However, with decently long filenames, I don't really care whether it's "My Latest Masterwork of Literature" or "My Latest Masterwork of Literature.Microsoft Word 5.1", especially if the last bit is hidden in icon views and hideable in list views. D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 97 07:30:11 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22550 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61146 comp.sys.mac.system:198326 "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: [stuff deleted] >And, again, creator codes don't work well in a multi-user >environment or network. If one user prefers Painter, and >one user prefers Photoshop, and they both have to work on >a set of files, they're continually going to have creator >problems, because the files will continually have their creator >code set to the other person's app. I don't see this as a big problem. If you work on the same files and you use different programs, you either open the file from within you favourite application or you simply drag the file onto the icon of the application. (*why* do you have to command-drop on the NeXT? I don't get it). I would be seriously dissapointed at Apple if we had to start dealing with extensions, however long they may be, after having had a far superior solution for over ten years. It seems right, however, to demand that the application knows and [apparently] tells the system which files it can handle. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 97 07:43:01 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22551 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61147 comp.sys.mac.system:198327 Stephen Peters writes: >maintain a reference to the application which created it. The second, >as implemented on Win95 and NeXT, is to have applications publish the >file types that it knows how to handle, and give the user a way to >choose a default application for that file type. One question: this "give the user a way to choose a default application...", does this mean that the user *have* to choose the default application, or does it mean that powerusers *may if they want* change the default application? I'm also suspicious against hacks of all kinds; the File Manager on Solaris is, unfortunatley, a very good example of a very, very bad hack. In that case, it is an unsolvable situation: the poverty of the filesystem (in terms of file attributes), makes a hack the only usable solution. The Real solution, a serious update of the file system, seems unthinkable to the unix community. Well, well, he who lives shall see. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 97 07:52:24 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dgma6$rat$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22552 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61148 comp.sys.mac.system:198331 jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes: >You don't know jack about what Nextstep is, or how easy it is to use. I >don't care if you BUY a Nextstep system or not. USE IT before you go around >saying how "unix will be the end of us!".. because quite frankly I have more I don't want to be harsh, but some three years ago I had a NeXT-machine on my desktop for a few days, just to check it out and see how it was. The first thing that happend when I booted the system was: nothing. A dialog saying "Checking System Resources" came up and then nothing. A manual told me to press ctrl-alt-q (or something) the get a shelltool and see what was happening. It was waiting for a DNS-server. And it waited and it waited. Very intuitive. Very non-unix. Once I had entered another DNS-server it booted very nicely and was ok to use, but not that much a revolution. I recently troet the NeXT-step GUI ontop of my Solaris 2.5 system. Neat, but not that neat, so I switched back to OpenWindows (in itself a disaster as a GUI, but usable). Don't get me wrong, I think this move from Apple/NeXT is a brilliant one, or at least, it has the potential to be brilliant, but please don't say that it's not unix and please don't say that it's easier for the novice to set up and maintain than the Mac OS. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!nef.ens.fr!drakkar!jalon From: jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 10:00:05 GMT Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5dmrj5$si2@nef.ens.fr> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dgma6$rat$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: drakkar.ens.fr Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22553 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61153 comp.sys.mac.system:198352 In article , Peter Moller wrote: >jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes: [...problem with a NeXT...] >"Checking System Resources" came up and then nothing. A manual told me to >press ctrl-alt-q (or something) the get a shelltool and see what was happening. >It was waiting for a DNS-server. And it waited and it waited. Very intuitive. >Very non-unix. If this happen on a Mac (and it happens often) : the system doesn't boot and you can't do almost anything, even if you are an advanced user, and sometimes you have to reinstall the system. At least, you can almost always try something with a NeXT box (and with all modern OSes (ie not Win95 not MacOS)). > Once I had entered another DNS-server it booted very nicely and >was ok to use, but not that much a revolution. Not that much a revolution compared to OpenWindows ???? :-) > I recently troet the NeXT-step >GUI ontop of my Solaris 2.5 system. Neat, but not that neat, so I switched >back to OpenWindows (in itself a disaster as a GUI, but usable). This is not the NS GUI but the Openstep port from Sun and it seems to be very slow and not very innovative... >Don't get me wrong, I think this move from Apple/NeXT is a brilliant one, or >at least, it has the potential to be brilliant, but please don't say that >it's not unix and please don't say that it's easier for the novice to set up >and maintain than the Mac OS. It's not unix, it's Mach and it's often easier for the novice to set up and maintain (because the organisation of files (expecially those the user sees, ie Apps, "Library") is much better) than the Mac OS --Julien -- Julien Jalon | Ecole normale superieure jalon@clipper.ens.fr | 45 rue d'Ulm http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/ | 75230 Paris Cedex 05 | FRANCE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.uwa.edu.au!not-for-mail From: leigh@antechinus.cs.uwa.edu.au (Leigh Smith) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Floating point within the kernel? Date: 10 Feb 1997 17:36:17 +0800 Organization: Computer Science, University of Western Australia Lines: 21 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: antechinus.cs.uwa.oz.au X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.0.15 In writing a motion tracking device driver I've come across a bug with floating point operations within the kernel (NS3.3 & OS/M4.1 Intel). I can declare a variable to be a floating point constant and hand it around within the kernel ok, and even pass it back to a user level program via MiG. If I attempt a floating point operation, multiply, divide, add, subtract, cast from an int to a float etc, I get a hung kernel. Looking at the assembly code, the floating point operations produce just the expected i486 op-codes. I'm guessing the cause is from a trap occuring due to floating point operations which isn't handled within the kernel. Can anyone provide any experience or suggestions? My cup of gratitude would overfloweth :-) Leigh -- Leigh Smith Computer Science, University of Western Australia +61-9-380-1945 leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (NeXTMail/MIME) "In a world where success means gaining time, thinking has a single but irredeemable fault: it's a waste of time" - J-F. Lyotard #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!bcc.ac.uk!drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk!hammond_g From: hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Sender: news@ucl.ac.uk (Usenet News System) Message-ID: <1997Feb10.095803.59322@ucl.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 09:58:03 GMT Reply-To: hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G) References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddvvd$lha@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: UCL Dept Mech Eng X-Newsreader: mxrn 6.18-9 Lines: 21 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22555 comp.sys.mac.system:198353 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4020 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61155 In article <5de9k2$q13@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) writes: |>>Yeah, somewhere on Info-Mac is a little utility called MacGREP which, you |>>guessed it, lets you GREP Mac files. I believe it's in the Utilities |>>folder, but if you haven't already, just download the |>>file. Path is /mirrors/Info-Mac_Help/all-files.text. Search this file to |>>find MacGREP's location. |> |>That sounds great. Except I'm not really sure what to do with that path. |>I tried putting an "ftp:" in front of it, but Netscape says the connection |>was refused. try http://src.doc.ic.ac.uk/packages/info-mac/ -- /** Java G * Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner * http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23 * "it's not about money... it's about pasta..." */ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 03:19:02 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 24 Message-ID: <32FED9F6.3D66@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22556 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61156 comp.sys.mac.system:198358 M wrote: > > In <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: > > In <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: > [snip] > > > 1. Hiding directories isn't the same as "hidden" resource forks. > [snip] > > But NeXT moved on from that becuase it is less flexible than Wrappers. By > > opening the file into multiple files that _can_ be accessed by advanced > > users, you can change sections of the code without any fancy tools. Things > ^^^^^^^^^^^ > Gee, all these years of using it, and I didn't know ResEdit was such a > Fancy Tool. If you turn things 90 degrees and look at them, you could see > that having to fire up a CLI to get into those wrappers is just another case > of having to use a Fancy Tool. :) You don't need a Fancy Tool or a CLI. You select the wrapper, and you select the 'Open As Folder' menu item in the 'File' menu. Or you type 'Command-O' (as opposed to Command-o for the normal open). That's in WorkspaceManager, NeXT's Finder app. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.win.bright.net!news From: Rich Schroedel Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Macintosh format? Date: Sat, 08 Feb 1997 12:54:42 -0600 Organization: BrightNet Wisconsin Lines: 10 Message-ID: <32FCCBEC.93E@win.bright.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ash1-cs-11.win.bright.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Next's document web page now claims to have down-loadable documentation in "Macintosh format". The files they have added all have a ".sit" suffix. When I try to download them using a Macintosh and Netscape, I am told that a helper application/plugin of type "application/octet-stream" is need. Netscape does not list any suggestions. I have no idea what application I need. -- Rich Schroedel "There is only one success... Ondossagon Software to live your life in your own way" richs@win.bright.net Christopher Marlowe #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem1-04.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:38:32 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dme4o$ave@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem1-04.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22558 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61164 comp.sys.mac.system:198383 In article <5dme4o$ave@crl.crl.com>, mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: >You shouldn't mention forked files and portability in the same sentence >without a negation in there somewhere. I've never had a problem transferring files from my mac to another platform, the "portability" problem is mostly bullshit, IMHO. Files that absolutely need the resource fork are mac-specific files, and would be useless to another system anyway. A standard[1] scheme called AppleDouble exists to transfer a non mac-specific file while keeping the resource fork, meta-data, etc. to another mac intact, and allowing a non-mac to ignore the mac-specific part. The only problem is that in this multi-platform world, MacOS has no standard routines to return a specially-encoded mac file to its unencoded form (however, most mac file transfer apps have been doing this without Apple's help for years (with the exception of web browsers, irritatingly enough)). [1] RFC 1740, . -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. Boycott Microsoft! Why? See . #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed3.bbnplanet.com!tiger.middlebury.edu!flannet.middlebury.edu!herren From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Macintosh format? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 08:44:09 -0500 Organization: Language Schools of Middlebury College Lines: 29 Sender: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu Message-ID: References: <32FCCBEC.93E@win.bright.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: flanweb.middlebury.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-ID: X-Gateway: NASTA Gate 1.18 for FirstClass(R) richs@win.bright.net,UseNet writes: >Next's document web page now claims to have down-loadable documentation >in "Macintosh format". The files they have added all have a ".sit" >suffix. When I try to download them using a Macintosh and Netscape, I am >told that a helper application/plugin of type "application/octet-stream" >is need. Netscape does not list any suggestions. I have no idea what >application I need. Stuffit expander with the shareware enhancements can open them. -- ------------------------- David Herren ------------------------ The Language Schools herren@flannet.middlebury.edu Middlebury College http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/ Middlebury, VT 05753 USA v: 802.443.5746 f: 802.443.2075 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: Re: TCL for NeXT (HELP) Date: 10 Feb 97 08:22:17 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <32EEA76D.41C67EA6@oar.net> <1997Feb9.105307.1337@prim.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-5.access.one.net In-reply-to: dave@prim.demon.co.uk's message of Sun, 9 Feb 1997 10:53:07 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:25008 comp.sys.next.programmer:22560 comp.sys.next.software:27964 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25286 In article <1997Feb9.105307.1337@prim.demon.co.uk>, dave@prim.demon.co.uk (Dave Griffiths) writes: In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >I've posted a copy of tcl7.6 modified to compile under NeXTSTEP3.3 >to my home page. Has anyone ported Tk to NeXTStep? I've had it running under Xnext, but no NeXTSTEP, yet. Last time I looked (tk4.1, I think), it looked like it was just too X11-based. Essentially, you'd have to write an emulator translating X11 calls into NeXTSTEP calls, and I really didn't want to get involved with that. Besides, I'd much rather have native "widgets". I don't want to see 12-pixel borders on my buttons, even if the script author wanted them! That might be a more useful port, but it would probably also take somewhat longer than an X11 emulation. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: first@secondd.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: CD`R Media for Sale Date: 10 Feb 1997 14:14:15 GMT Organization: thecopycatshop Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5dnafn$1eh@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lax-ca20-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Feb 10 8:14:15 AM CST 1997 We have the following CD-R media for sale. Brand: Pioneer Type: Printable Media (Surface is blank for printing or labels) Type: Gold on Green Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 6.99 Minimum Order: 10 Brand: Maxell Type: Gold on Gold Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 6.55 Minimum Order: 10 Brand: TDK Type: Gold on Green Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 6.55 Minimum Order: 10 Brand: Hewlett Packard Type Gold on Gold Size: 74 min (650 mb) Price: 7.15 Minimum Order: 10 Lifetime Warranty The Copy Cat Shop has all your CD duplication, replication, recorders, software, and media needs. If you have any questions feel free to call. Cordially, The Copy Cat Shop 213-650-1680 213-650-9110 Fax #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!louie.disney.com!news From: Joseph Panico Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Re: Arbitary precision arithmetic? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 09:48:17 -0500 Organization: Disney Online Lines: 20 Message-ID: <32FF3531.580@online.disney.com> References: <1997Feb9.120321.1665@prim.demon.co.uk> Reply-To: jpanico@online.disney.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.18.62.119 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22562 comp.sys.next.software:27968 Dave Griffiths wrote: > > Hi, does anyone know of a simple maths library that will let you do > arbitary precision integer arithmetic from C/Obj-C on NeXTStep? I found > something called "pari" but it has a Sun3 assembler file that doesn't > compile. > > Thanks, > > Dave Of course the Foundation's NSDecimalNumber will also allow you to do fixed point, near arbitrary (exponent of +-127) precision arithmetic. If you are so inclined, you can use a C interface into this functionality rather than access it as Obj-C classes. Look in NSDecimal.h. -- Joe Panico Disney Online jpanico@online.disney.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!pasteur.fr!jussieu.fr!eurocontrol.fr!polaris.eurocontrol.fr!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: first@secondd.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 10 Feb 1997 14:14:15 GMT Message-ID: Subject: cmsg cancel <5dnafn$1eh@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Control: cancel <5dnafn$1eh@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Feb 10 8:14:15 AM CST 1997 Organization: Usenet Canal Historique Approved: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr X-Cancelled-By: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) X-Newsposter: cancel-spam version 1.19 X-no-archive: yes Lines: 9 ECP/EMP aka SPAM or pyramidal scheme (MMF) cancelled by bofh@keltia.freenix.fr It may also be an image too small for newsbot to be activated. See report in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins. Date: Mon Feb 10 17:26:41 1997 Original subject was: CD`R Media for Sale #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.168.54.138!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!supernews!NewsWatcher!user From: spamwall~mouser@zercom.net (Martiin-Gilles Lavoie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.soft-sys.nextstep Subject: Re: I Need some NeXT Hardware Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:11:01 -0500 Organization: Internet-Login Lines: 38 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: <32F416F1.6576@q-net.pair.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.191.6.123 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.marketplace:16344 comp.sys.next.programmer:22563 comp.sys.next.software:27973 comp.soft-sys.nextstep:2986 In article <32F416F1.6576@q-net.pair.com>, webmaster@q-net.pair.com wrote: > Please help, I am in desperate need of hardware and software for my NeXT > Station. Bellow is the list of items I need... > > 1 Monoter Cord- Monocrome- I am unsure since I can not even turn on the > computer > 2 Power Cords- One for Printer and One for computer itself > > 1 Printer Cords- To connect the printer to the computer > > 1 CD-Rom Drive- That can be connected to the SCSI port > > 1 Hard Drive (500 or so megs)- That can be connected to the SCSI port > > 1 Latest version of the operating system- Developer and user version for > a Motorola processer > 1 Set of Software- Browser, E-Mail Client, Word Processer, Spread Sheet, > any other useful software. > 1 A later version of their web development suiet for Motorola > > I have a Motorola NeXT Station with a Mega Pixel monoter. I also have a > NeXT printer(laser). I am unsure of the RAM or Hard Disk space since I > am unable to turn the computer on. Also if anyone could direct me to a > few good books on NeXT. > > Thanks > Tom Reminga > E-Mail me at: > mailto: webmaster@q-net.pair.com > > Q-Net Internet Services > http://www.q-net.pair.com Check out Spherical Solutions at www.orb.com. They have cheap NeXT hardware and components. Martin-Gilles L. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:53:55 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 51 Message-ID: <32FF6EC3.4533@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FE72F6.4C96@subsequent.com> <5dm74q$906@News.Dal.Ca> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22564 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61194 comp.sys.mac.system:198472 John Christie wrote: > > Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: > : But what if you want to name two files the same? It's not uncommon > : for me to have two files in the same directory with the same name > : but different extensions. For instance, splash.riff and splash.bmp. > Those aren't the same name. Why would one ever want to use > EXACTLY the same name for two files on purpose. I hope no one ever comes > up with a file system that allows that. I'd hate to have to follow some > of the programmers I've seen in a project on such a file system. They are the same name, if you remove the extension. In an extensionless OS, you have 'splash' and 'splash'. There are perfectly valid reasons to name two files the same, an example of which you deleted in your response. > : not allowed, you'll end up with splash_riff and splash_bmp or some > : such, which puts the extension back in anyway. > > But it does not reinstate the necessity for extensions or the > limitations they engender. What limitations would those be? Only 3-character extensions have any limitations. > : How does the Mac handle duplicates? It's been too long since I > : used one. I'm thinking that you can't have two files of different > : types in the same directory with the same name, but I could be > : wrong. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? > > You could always use exactly the same name but add a blank space > at the end of one of them. That's a *nice* solution. Not. >After that is done how are you going to > easily tell them apart? (OK, the one with the space will be later in list > view and HOPEFULLY they will have different icons in icon view). > This was the worst argument in this thread yet. And from a command line? Or from a telnet session? Or from an Open Panel? How do you tell them apart then? Icon's aren't any help in many situations. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!not-for-mail From: Alan Jenks Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 13:29:27 -0600 Organization: None Lines: 18 Message-ID: <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dgnar$rm1$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> Reply-To: jalanet@mcs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: jalanet.pr.mcs.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22565 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61198 comp.sys.mac.system:198478 Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > Most of the perceived problems in reconciling the Mac > and NeXT UI's and filesystems can be solved by adding > some functionality into the WorkspaceManager and Appkit. > Appkit changes will be adopted by all OpenStep applications > and objects automatically. > > Even creator information could be handled this way, but > on an improved, per-user basis, using some sort of > database or hashtable. Each user could have their own > creator code for a given file, rather than the file > specifying one creator code for all users. It sounds like the NextOS already has a mechanism that could be enhanced to support the file type and creator concepts found on the Mac. I don't think the user will care that the implementation that supports this is multiple hidden files rather than a single file with a resource fork, as long as the user experience is the same. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!newsadm From: "Mitchell Allen" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.soft-sys.nextstep Subject: Re: I Need some NeXT Hardware Date: 10 Feb 97 19:00:06 -0500 Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services Lines: 49 Distribution: inet Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.60.191 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a1 X-News-Servers: netnews.worldnet.att.net X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/comp.sys.next.marketplace, nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/comp.sys.next.software, nntp://netnews.worldnet.att.net/comp.soft-sys.nextstep Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.marketplace:16347 comp.sys.next.programmer:22566 comp.sys.next.software:27976 comp.soft-sys.nextstep:2987 On Mon, Feb 10, 1997 1:11 PM, Martiin-Gilles Lavoie wrote: > > Please help, I am in desperate need of hardware and software for my > NeXT > > Station. Bellow is the list of items I need... > > > > 1 Monoter Cord- Monocrome- I am unsure since I can not even turn on > the > > computer > > 2 Power Cords- One for Printer and One for computer itself You can get these in any computer store. > > > > 1 Printer Cords- To connect the printer to the computer > > > > 1 CD-Rom Drive- That can be connected to the SCSI port Any SCSI CD ROM drive will work. > > > > 1 Hard Drive (500 or so megs)- That can be connected to the SCSI port Any SCSI HD will work, regardless of whether it is formatted NeXT, mac or IBM. Try it, you'll see what I'm talking about. > > > > 1 Latest version of the operating system- Developer and user version for > > a Motorola processer > > 1 Set of Software- Browser, E-Mail Client, Word Processer, Spread Sheet, > > any other useful software. > > 1 A later version of their web development suiet for Motorola > > > > I have a Motorola NeXT Station with a Mega Pixel monoter. I also have a > > NeXT printer(laser). I am unsure of the RAM or Hard Disk space since I > > am unable to turn the computer on. Also if anyone could direct me to a > > few good books on NeXT. Steve Jobs and the NeXT Big Thing --------------------------------------------------------- Cyberdog ---A Product of Apple Computer, Inc. --------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.130.2.8!news.tuwien.ac.at!bertl From: Norbert Heger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 11 Feb 1997 00:07:42 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5dod8e$j3a@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <5didf0$jre@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: Norbert Heger NNTP-Posting-Host: b08.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Originator: bertl@gemini Gregory Loren Hansen wrote > > [...] hold down option whilst selecting what to search by. > > You'll see a number of new options there [...] > > Cool! I did not I could do that [...] Hey guys, this is the 'NeXT PROGRAMMER' newsgroup - not a 'HOW TO OPERATE MY APPLE MACINTOSH' newsgroup. Please avoid such unnecessary crosspostings! - N.C. _________________________________________________________________ Norbert C. Heger NEXTSTEP / OpenStep Software Development NeXTmail preferred, MIME is welcome Please finger for PGP public key #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 23:11:49 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22568 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61207 comp.sys.mac.system:198517 In article <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com>, Alan Jenks wrote: \ It sounds like the NextOS already has a mechanism that could be enhanced \ to support the file type and creator concepts found on the Mac. I don't \ think the user will care that the implementation that supports this is \ multiple hidden files rather than a single file with a resource fork, as \ long as the user experience is the same. Under one condition--if we're using multiple hidden files, we MUST fix the large-block problem for large hard drives. Since a hard drive has 65536 allocation blocks, and no more, small files on large hard drive are large. Right now, a text file containing a single character consumes 32K of my (2.1 GB) hard drive. Under the current system, the data fork and the resource fork each require a minimum of one allocation block. If we break down the resource fork into a bunch of little hidden files, each of which requires a minimum of one allocation block, we'll be eating up hard drive space at an amazing rate. D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!pasteur.fr!jussieu.fr!pauli.cnam.fr!root From: philippe_Provost Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: WOF combined with Lotus DOmino 4.5 ? Date: 10 Feb 1997 20:58:18 GMT Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5do25a$hn6@pauli.cnam.fr> Reply-To: phil@cnam.fr NNTP-Posting-Host: phone-client.cnam.fr X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Greetings, Forgive me if that request is not sent to the appropriate group but i found no other to send it to. I attended the Lotus conference (LotusSphere97) and found that their Domino Server looks very appealing... native HTML embedded, NNTP server embedded, SMTP/Mime server embedded, Java curently being integrated.. and administration tools for managing these... I am a NeXT fellow from the beginning and I think that WOF is still unmatched however I really think that the combination of the two would be very very interesting. (of course Domino talks with a Notes server, to maintain all Notes services). NOTE that with MQSerie (from IBM), you can extract data from the Mainframe very securely and put those in a Notes server, which also means a Domino server (ie WWW). Does anybody tried to tie them altogether ? any more info available ? please reply to phil@cnam.fr. I will make a summary in a few days. Thank you for your help Philippe #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:45:32 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <32FF88EC.6515@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <5dlvvo$149$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <01bc1720$e0f3d600$ceec1fcc@rthelen.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22570 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61209 comp.sys.mac.system:198522 Randy Thelen wrote: > > > A horror story from NT 4.0: > NT 4.0 is a horror story! > > Seriously, I use NT everyday on a dual-processor PowerPC machine. It's got > its strengths. Support not being one of them. ;) -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 11:47:13 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22571 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61210 comp.sys.mac.system:198528 peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: > Stephen Peters writes: > >maintain a reference to the application which created it. The > >second, as implemented on Win95 and NeXT, is to have applications > >publish the file types that it knows how to handle, and give the > >user a way to choose a default application for that file type. > > One question: this "give the user a way to choose a default > application...", does this mean that the user *have* to choose the > default application, or does it mean that powerusers *may if they > want* change the default application? The latter. If an application says that it can deal with a file type, then it should automatically be used. If no applications have registered that they can deal with a given file type, it should attempt to open it in some kind of default application (like a text editor). If more than one application says that it can deal with a file type, some sort of conflict resolution needs to take place. However, I note that changing something like the opener application should never be considered part of the `power user' realm. It should be easily viewable through a `file attributes' box. > I'm also suspicious against hacks of all kinds; the File Manager on > Solaris is, unfortunatley, a very good example of a very, very bad > hack. In that case, it is an unsolvable situation: the poverty of > the filesystem (in terms of file attributes), makes a hack the only > usable solution. I agree that the Solaris filemgr application is a hack. I disagree that it's the only usable solution. NeXT hasn't played with the file system to get its information; instead, it's augmented the higher-level `Workspace' to associate the file types with applications. > The Real solution, a serious update of the file system, seems > unthinkable to the unix community. The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to embed them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only with the organization and management of the raw bits into directories and files. The file system doesn't need to know the file types, but the `workspace' does. I think it's still an open question as to which system needs to be reconfigured to solve this. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: Re: TCL for NeXT (HELP) Date: 10 Feb 1997 11:51:07 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <32EEA76D.41C67EA6@oar.net> <1997Feb9.105307.1337@prim.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:25011 comp.sys.next.programmer:22572 comp.sys.next.software:27980 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25296 shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > Has anyone ported Tk to NeXTStep? > > I've had it running under Xnext, but no NeXTSTEP, yet. Last time I > looked (tk4.1, I think), it looked like it was just too X11-based. > Essentially, you'd have to write an emulator translating X11 calls > into NeXTSTEP calls, and I really didn't want to get involved with > that. > > Besides, I'd much rather have native "widgets". I don't want to see > 12-pixel borders on my buttons, even if the script author wanted them! > That might be a more useful port, but it would probably also take > somewhat longer than an X11 emulation. The Tk8.0 release seems to be focusing a bit more on providing the ability to use native buttons, menus, scrollbars, and font designations. I've been toying with the idea of trying to do a NeXTSTEP/OpenStep port, but it's still kind of low on my to-do list :-) -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!uucp6.uu.net!world!rpk From: rpk@world.std.com (Robert P. Krajewski) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:28:59 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB8651.243F@worldbank.org> <199702092226324711866@roxboro-189.interpath.net> Nntp-Posting-Host: ppp0a037.std.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 13 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22573 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61217 So, what's really going to happen to the Mac file/document model ? I don't think it's going away. I would get that the file type/creator feature would survive into the Rhapsody APIs (even the Yellow Box) because it's such a basic feature of the way a Mac works. Otherwise, how is Rhapsody going to support existing MFS/HFS volumes without losing information ? I would expect that older Unix file systems accessible to Rhapsody would carry the extra properties in pretty much the same way that Unix implementations of AppleShare servers do, and that a new file system which is pretty much the same as what NeXTStep uses now would open up a few more slots or user properties for attributes formerly associated with MacOS. The rest can be can taken care of by a MacOS Easy Open on steroids. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!uucp6.uu.net!world!rpk From: rpk@world.std.com (Robert P. Krajewski) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:32:39 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FE72F6.4C96@subsequent.com> <5dm74q$906@News.Dal.Ca> Nntp-Posting-Host: ppp0a037.std.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 8 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22574 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61218 comp.sys.mac.system:198554 > Those aren't the same name. Why would one ever want to use >EXACTLY the same name for two files on purpose. That's not what a Mac user thinks at all. The name of a file still has to be unique within a directory. It's just that the type and creator of the file are just PROPERTIES of the file, not things that change its name -- at any level. It's simple, straightforward, and unfortunately unlike what people have been led to expect from file systems on every other OS. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 20:16:28 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 95 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <0myB5iy00iWY461F04@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22575 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4030 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61219 comp.sys.mac.system:198556 On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 13:29:02 -0500, Charles William Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 5-Feb-97 Mac/NeXT & >Unix: You're all.. by John Siracusa@bu.edu >> Further, you CANNOT hope to get the current millions of Mac >> users to replace their OS with an OS that acts like Unix! > >You're absolutely right. Have you guys realized that Unix's behaviour is entirely dependant upon the SHELL you are using? Look at Windoze: sure it sits on top of MS-DOG but someone unused to MS-DOG need not know any MS-LOSS commands; Most users are unaware (and uninterested) of the CLI sitting under Windoze. Windoze is a user shell, not an OS. Even Windoze-95 sits on top of a "virtual DOS" so it too qualifies as a shell. Windows NT is VMS with the serial numbers filed off. The GUI is nothing more than a user shell. Regular Unix systems w/ X windowing *can*, with the right X clients programs, hide the existence of the regular shells (though you can argue that TCL/TK is a pretty cool shell for a GUI). So the Mac handles things oddly, and, because there is no CLI available it cannot do any task that hasn't been pre- programmed. Unix (and, to a lesser extent, MS-DOG) can use small programs in a "pipeline" to handle extremely complex tasks. The advent of Perl makes this less critical, however. >Fortunately, NEXTSTEP doesn't act like any other Unix I've used. Actually, it's "shell" is unlike any previous Unix. >> And believe me, no matter how much you "hide" the unix, it'll >> never be "like a Mac" to those millions of users. > >You've obviously never used NEXTSTEP, or else you would have seen for >yourself that you really can hide the Unix. Most people who have used >both NEXTSTEP and MacOS think that NEXTSTEP has a Mac-like interface >that's actually better than the Mac's. There's nothing in Unix that keeps it from "putting on a pretty face" (which seems to be just a suite of X clients and a window manager that close the majority of gaps). Of course, Windoze is just a brown paper bag over MS-DOG's CLI. :-) >> On a Mac, icons do not "represent" or "point to" or "indicate" >> your files. They *ARE* your files. That icon *IS* your disk >> drive. That just isn't going to happen in the world of Unix. > >Try using NEXTSTEP-- it already happened years ago. Actually, have you looked at mfm and other items? Unix ain't AmigaDOS; You don't need an Icon file for any file you want to see. It really all depends upon the X client that's being used. Granted, the behavior (pre-CDE) wasn't real consistent and the "look'n'feel" was mostly dependant upon the window manager (be it Motif or OpenLook). >> And why *should* Apple keep *any* vestiges of Unix? Unix ain't a "user interface"; You can layer damn near anything on top of it without crashing the whole system. Imagine the GUI crapping out but the file system is intact, allowing more graceful behavior should an app go toes up. And that's just it- you're not arguing the same issue. Unix is a "kernel" with a sh*tload of tools around it. Much of the Mac paradigm is independant of the actual foundation it is built upon- Look at the Mac Virtual Machine(s) under BeOS; BeOS ain't Unix either, and it ain't MacOS, it has many features of Amiga's OS, but you can still do serious Mac stuff with it. Hell, if you're enough of a masochist, nothing stops anybody from grafting a MAE on top of Windoze-NT, bypassing the original M$ GUI; It's all a matter of properly interrupting the service calls. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 5 Feb 1997 20:30:07 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 77 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net> <5dakum$ien@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22576 comp.sys.mac.system:198570 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4031 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61221 On 5 Feb 1997 13:53:10 -0500, Nathan M. Urban wrote: >In article , rang@trillium.adaptec.com (Anton R > ang) wrote: > >> In article <32F89AA4.1DC4@iquest.net>, sdmeyers wrote: >> >> Consider double-clicking a document. How do you know which program to >> launch? HFS provides the type and creator, which together with the >> desktop database define both the default application as well as a list of >> other applications which know how to open the file. Typical UNIX file >> systems don't have this information available to them, though there are >> approaches to make it work most of the time (or all the time, if you can >> enforce a file format with a fixed header). > >That's probably the most difficult problem. The old "forked file" issue, again? I'm not entirely happy w/ the NeXT approach to this but I've little actual experience on NeXT itself. I'm a Unix systems generalist, so I've got some useful (and useless) things to bring in here. This is damn near trivial; Look at the "file" command in Unix. There's a file named /etc/magic that describes most file's internal "signatures"; Given this, it'd be an easy extension to allow all files w/ a particular signature to launch an application. Sure, it wouldn't allow mapping individual files with identical signatures to different applications... But then you go for filename hacking. Current versions of Linux (the ext2 filesystem) allow file names up to 256 characters long. You can (with some judicious use of "delimiting" characters) insert more information about this file into it's file name. Hell, you can even modify the filesystem to allow the Inode to support an application fork for a file (accessible via ioctl() calls?) for such information. This is *not* a biggie, especially when you have full access to the OS source code. *Everything* here is subject to trade-offs. >> But there are harder cases. Consider dropping a document onto the icon >> for a currently running application. This should generally open it within >> the app; but there is no standard way (in a generic UNIX) to communicate >> this > >It works in NEXTSTEP. It'd work damn near anywhere; It's a matter of ensuring that an application can open the file (some are too damn picky). Some of the file managers available under X allow for drag-and-drop access (though the window manager itself seldom supports this; It's a case of implementing a new window manager, really...). >> There's a lot of work to be >> done to make any modern UNIX as user-friendly as the Mac. (I'm not saying >> it's impossible; just hard.) > >Look at NEXTSTEP. I think it's friendlier than the Mac. Look carefully; Unix is an OS kernel, not a GUI. There are different GUIs layered on top of it, though, that use it's functionality (and set of tools) in entertaining ways. The advantage of Unix as a system foundation lies in it's layered nature. This allows a Unix system to take on many different personalities (consider shells; The C-Shell and Korn Shell have different personalities though they make no effort to "hide" the file system or the utitily programs...). -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 10 Feb 1997 19:54:20 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 75 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22577 comp.sys.mac.system:198610 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4035 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61244 On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 01:16:42 -0800, Ian Russell Ollmann wrote: > > >On Thu, 6 Feb 1997, Paul Connelly wrote: > >> In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, >> glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) wrote: >> >> > Don't confuse the operating system with the shells. >Anyway, it is so simple a child could do it. Find out the name of your >local sysadmin. If his loginID is ralph, then take the following steps: > > chmod 755 ~/.cshrc > mv ~/.cshrc ~/.cshrc.bak > cp ~ralph/.cshrc ~/. > >That ought to fix your path and if it doesn't, take it up with ralph. In >fact, you should probably ask ralph if it causes any other confusing >changes, too. Most sysadmins are very capable with questions such as that >one in particular. At least, let's hope so. You forgot that he could be re-setting his path in his .login file rather than the .cshrc file. You're also assuming he's using the C-shell (or t-c-shell) rather than (my preference) the Korn shell (which instead uses .profile and, sometimes, .kshrc files to do such setup). You can find out what his shell is, for instance, by: grep "^ralph:" /etc/passwd | awk '{print $NF}' But this is just a chance to pontificate (for me at least). The issue at hand is that most of the utilities need to be hidden from the user but we'd still need icons for various utilities to make them useful. Considering that most of the utilities are *not* suitable for use as GUI icons, we can simply have a folder with GUI'd front ends for these utilities, allowing them to be called up during drag'n'drop operations and such; The MacOS doesn't really have a way to string such things together. Alternatively, it shouldn't be all that difficult to modify TCL/TK to use the MacOS GUI gimmicks and use *that* to encapsulate the regular utilities within a shell program. A regular MacOS user will never want to launch a shell (CLI) so any utility programs the user wants access to must have the appropriate GUI wrapper; But then, this is true enough today. The "tar" utility packaged for MacOS duplicated the normal Unix tar functionality -at the back end- but needed a front-end to tie it into the GUI (which, I suspect, was the lion's share of the effort). The GUI *is* a form of a shell; It's just that you can't arrange utilities in a pipeline, so you've gotta have big, heavy utility programs. This is where the Mac differs greatly from Unix and requires a MacOS on top of Unix to implement a "command construction set" which yanks in the Unix utilities to perform a function. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news.urz.tu-dresden.de!not-for-mail From: Patrick Schulz Newsgroups: comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: OpenStep/Sparc [MiscKit] Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:10:28 +0100 Organization: Institute of Computer Engineering, CS department, University of Technology Dresden, Germany Lines: 34 Message-ID: <33004594.288B@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de> References: <32F19278.453B@erols.com> <5d5c30$8uq@mozo.cc.purdue.edu> <32FA5C21.3080@cyrix.com> <32FB1573.6445@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de> <5dfut4$k5a@news.xmission.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ite126.inf.tu-dresden.de Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; SunOS 5.5 sun4m) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.sun.misc:27102 comp.sys.next.misc:25014 comp.sys.next.programmer:22578 Hello, When I posted the last message, I wanted to bring up some serious portability issues about OpenStep, I didn`t like to criticize the MiscKit group. No, I think, the MiscKit and all the other free software projects are great, I wished, I`d have the time to be a volunteer. The problem I see for all OpenStep software projects is the portability problem across the different implementations. So I told you about my experiences with OpenStep Solaris, hoping that programmers and Software companies recognize the problem and start making their products more portable. IMHO it`s much easier to do that at the beginning of a project (what about a portability policy). My sorrow is, that OPENSTEP (NeXT`s thing) will become much more popular in the next time, and because of the problems I mentioned before other implementaions like Sun`s OpenStep or GNUstep will be dumped or discontinued. I`d like to see various OpenStep implementations running the same Apps no matter what platform they run on. NeXT`s OPENSTEP - aka the new MacOS won`t compete against Windows when they start doing their own thing again. My bottom line is: Stay open, don`t create/support proprietary software. OpenStep is the advantage :-) Patrick. -- Patrick Schulz; Alaunstrasse 21a D-01099 Dresden; Germany email: schulz@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de (MIME & NeXTmail welcome) http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~ps3/ - vmunix: panic - no coffee detected, user halted. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 02:01:29 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 28 Message-ID: <33001949.2FD2@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22579 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61256 comp.sys.mac.system:198641 Dave Scocca wrote: > > In article <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com>, Alan Jenks wrote: > > \ It sounds like the NextOS already has a mechanism that could be enhanced > \ to support the file type and creator concepts found on the Mac. I don't > \ think the user will care that the implementation that supports this is > \ multiple hidden files rather than a single file with a resource fork, as > \ long as the user experience is the same. > > Under one condition--if we're using multiple hidden files, we MUST fix > the large-block problem for large hard drives. Since a hard drive has > 65536 allocation blocks, and no more, small files on large hard drive > are large. Right now, a text file containing a single character > consumes 32K of my (2.1 GB) hard drive. > > Under the current system, the data fork and the resource fork each > require a minimum of one allocation block. If we break down the > resource fork into a bunch of little hidden files, each of which > requires a minimum of one allocation block, we'll be eating up hard > drive space at an amazing rate. If Apple doesn't use resource forks, they probably won't use the Mac filesystem at all. They'd most likely use the current NeXT/bsd filesystem, which doesn't suffer from the blocksize problem. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: "Randy Thelen" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 07:57:30 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 24 Message-ID: <01bc17f1$350f8ce0$aaec1fcc@rthelen.ix.netcom.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca36-10.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Feb 11 1:57:30 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22580 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61261 comp.sys.mac.system:198645 Dave Scocca wrote in article > Under one condition--if we're using multiple hidden files, we MUST fix > the large-block problem for large hard drives. Who's large-block problem? The Mac's? > Since a hard drive has > 65536 allocation blocks, and no more, small files on large hard drive > are large. Right now, a text file containing a single character > consumes 32K of my (2.1 GB) hard drive. Yes, on the Macintosh and DOS-FAT16 volume formats. However, on NTSF, FAT32, and UNIX file systems there is not such limitation. All of these volume formats allow the file system to utilize blocks at the granularity of 512 bytes. The above mentioned problem is only for the Macintosh (within the context of this problem). And, it's very unlikely the Macintosh volume format (HFS - Hierarchical File System) will survive as the volume format of choice for the Rhapsody system. I have no doubt that it will be supported for both existing Hard Disks and for floppies, but it will not be the default or the preferred format. -- Randy Thelen Hoping the powers that be do the right thing wrt NeXT & Apple. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.texoma.net!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!128.130.2.8!news.tuwien.ac.at!bertl From: Norbert Heger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 00:07:53 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 54 Message-ID: <5dod8p$j3c@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> Reply-To: Norbert Heger NNTP-Posting-Host: b08.dialin.tuwien.ac.at Originator: bertl@gemini Jonathan Hendry wrote: > And, again, creator codes don't work well in a multi-user > environment or network. If one user prefers Painter, and one user > prefers Photoshop, and they both have to work on a set of files, > they're continually going to have creator problems, because the > files will continually have their creator code set to the other > person's app. What about an extension of the file-wrapper concept? The wrapper may contain a file named ".fileCreator" to specify the creator application specific for each user e.g. using the plist-format: { john = WetPaint; bob = IconBuilder; susan = TIFFany2; } Each user may also specify wether he wants to use this information or not, using the defaults database: dwrite Workspace OpenFilesWithCreator YES (Mac like) dwrite Workspace OpenFilesWithCreator NO (NeXT like) > Filename extensions are used, but they are more flexible than > Windows extensions. There's no limit on the length of the extension, > for instance. The wrapper may also contain a file named ".fileType" to specify the type of the file-contents (e.g. "tiff"). This file may even contain A LIST OF TYPES to support multiple filetypes, e.g: "aSpecificPlistType, plist, ASCII" "m, ASCII" "h, rtf, ASCII" And it's no longer necessary to take care of the proper filetype-extension. Since the filetype information isn't part of the filename any longer, it is protected against accidental changes. Currently a folder is expected to be a wrapper if it has the proper filetype-extension and if the corresponding application is located in one of the application-search paths. Otherwise it looks like an ordinary folder which may be a bit confusing. Using the ".fileType" information instead - or in addition - to distinguish between wrappers and folders would avoid such a confusion. - N.C. _________________________________________________________________ Norbert C. Heger NEXTSTEP / OpenStep Software Development NeXTmail preferred, MIME is welcome Please finger for PGP public key #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!news.uh.edu!news.uh.edu!jason From: jason@fisher.psych.uh.edu (Jason L. Asbahr) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.lang.python Subject: Re: TCL for NeXT (HELP) Date: 11 Feb 97 06:52:15 Organization: C.R.A.S.H. The Computers, Robotics, and Artists Society of Houston Lines: 45 Message-ID: References: <32EEA76D.41C67EA6@oar.net> <1997Feb9.105307.1337@prim.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: fisher.psych.uh.edu In-reply-to: Stephen Peters's message of 10 Feb 1997 11:51:07 -0800 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:25016 comp.sys.next.programmer:22582 comp.sys.next.software:27992 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25302 comp.lang.python:17318 Greetings! shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > Has anyone ported Tk to NeXTStep? > > I've had it running under Xnext, but no NeXTSTEP, yet. Last time I > looked (tk4.1, I think), it looked like it was just too X11-based. > Essentially, you'd have to write an emulator translating X11 calls > into NeXTSTEP calls, and I really didn't want to get involved with > that. > > Besides, I'd much rather have native "widgets". I don't want to see > 12-pixel borders on my buttons, even if the script author wanted them! > That might be a more useful port, but it would probably also take > somewhat longer than an X11 emulation. The Tk8.0 release seems to be focusing a bit more on providing the ability to use native buttons, menus, scrollbars, and font designations. I've been toying with the idea of trying to do a NeXTSTEP/OpenStep port, but it's still kind of low on my to-do list :-) That sounds very cool -- would allow for Python-based GUI development on the NeXT! Keeping in mind I haven't delved into Tk much beyond Python's tkinter, how difficult would it be to emulate Tk's worldview in native NeXTSTEP? I don't mean at the X11 call level necessarily, but just below the Tk interface, with definiting buttons, packing them, etc... Hmm... Michael B. Johnson did some excellent work with Tcl/NeXTSTEP integration at the Media Lab, I guess I should look at that again. :-) (For the curious, it also involved RenderMan-Tcl bindings, URL: http://wave.www.media.mit.edu/people/wave/ ) More later, Jason Asbahr 808 Sul Ross Suite 7 Reactive Systems Houston, Texas 77006 jason@reactive.com (713) 942-7937 voice #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!sun4nl!server1.adam.ixe.net!news2.euro.net!news.euro.net!xs4all!asd16-10.dial.xs4all.nl!user From: tesuji@xs4all.nl (Mark Boon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.lang.pascal.mac,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.arch.embedded,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:54:30 +0200 Organization: Tesuji Software Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: asd12-21.dial.xs4all.nl X-XS4ALL-Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:47:01 CET Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61263 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4036 comp.lang.pascal.mac:4784 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10828 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20737 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5377 comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:2230 comp.arch.embedded:16210 comp.lang.java.programmer:35760 comp.sys.next.misc:25017 comp.sys.next.programmer:22583 In article , MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote: > > Pricing and Availability > > Metrowerks plans to ship CodeWarrior Latitude in the summer of 1997. > CodeWarrior Latitude will include all available targets in one library > package and will sell for $399. > Does that mean with one purchase I'd get CodeWarrior for say Mac, Windows and Playstation in one package? I'm considering buying a 'Yaroze' when it becomes available in Europe this month and port our Mac-game to Playstation. -- Mark Boon --------- Tesuji Software B.V. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 23:17:42 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5doaam$n5l$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22584 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61267 comp.sys.mac.system:198664 In article <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu>, John Siracusa wrote: \ John Rudd (jrudd@cygnus.com) wrote: \ It comes down to this: If you believe that config files should be \ changable by directly editing the file, then text files make sense. If \ you believe that config files should only be changed through a \ well-defined UI or GUI, then text files are not the best idea. \ : There are advantages to binary config files, and to text config files. You \ : have touched on none of the real advantages nor disadvantages of either. \ I think I did earlier and have again. I stated that an advantage of \ text config files is that they're easy for the user to edit without \ special tools. Another advantage of text-based config files: troubleshooting and tech support. I work in supporting SAS, and there have been times when the best way for me to find out what's been happening on a user's system is to look at the (text-based) config.sas file. If a user needs to upload and/or email the config file for tech support reasons, it's a lot easier to use a text transfer than to worry about corrupting a binary file. And as the supporting person, it's much easier to read the text file and see what the settings are than to try to run a program which will interpret a binary file. It's also easier to deal with config.sas file options cross-platform with a text-based file than with system-dependent binary files. D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 10 Feb 1997 17:14:47 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 152 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22585 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61268 comp.sys.mac.system:198672 macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: > John Rudd (jrudd@cygnus.com) wrote: > : Ohgod.. do we have to go through this AGAIN!? > > My nntp server only had the very tail-end of the "Mach-o" > discussion... You might want to check DejaNews (www.dejanews.com) if you're really interested. > : To the GUI user, a Wrapper looks EXACTLY like a file, except that it's > : executable. The only difference is to the CLI user (which you probably > : wont be anyway). > > --which I most assuredly *will* be, if there's one to use. It's not > my personal fear that's motivating the discussion, it's the traditional > Mac experience that I'm concerned about. The traditional Mac user will never know the difference; he or she will be simply using the GUI to do what he or she always did. The implementation details will be (and should be) hidden. > : [...] And binary config files are no less error prone to novice > : users. In fact, they may be more so, as the person fires up a > : text editor to edit the binary one the first time, and accidently > : trashes it. API calls can be just as easily implimented to do > : text based config files as binary ones. > > First, a user running a text editor on a binary config file should > have no effect provided they exit the app when they realize all they > see is gibberish. Considering we're talking about users who randomly try to edit files when they're not sure what they are, you may be assuming too much :-) > Second, *programming a robust API for* changing text files is much more > difficult and inefficient than a structured binary format. I disagree. Completely and unequivocally. Granted, you can find some binary formats which are very hard to evaluate in text form, but in the general case this is *not* true. Especially if you're talking about most configuration files, which boil down to little more than simple mappings between keywords and values. > It comes down to this: If you believe that config files should be > changable by directly editing the file, then text files make sense. > If you believe that config files should only be changed through a > well-defined UI or GUI, then text files are not the best idea. How about if you believe that config files should be changed through a well-defined UI or GUI, but should be robust enough that if someone ftp's the file in ASCII mode (potentially changing all instances of CR to CRLF), the program should treat the file as invariant. > I think I did earlier and have again. I stated that an advantage of > text config files is that they're easy for the user to edit without > special tools. Disadvantages are re-stated above. The advantages of > binary config files stem from the belief that config files should not > be edited directly by the user, but through a UI instead. Stating whether that config files should not be edited directly by the user is a completely different question as to whether the files should be in text or binary. One is a UI philosophy issue, the other is an implementation issue. In the discussion thus far, you've been arguing that the implementation details (as exhibited by Unix) are all-important, and all horrendous, and trying to back them up with philosophical issues. Once again, I submit that the implementation details have nothing to do with the UI philosophy, and ask that if you want to argue against one you learn how to separate it from the other. > That's the nature of Unix, and I really *do* like Unix. I'm just > highlighting the areas where the "Unix philosophy conflicts most with > the Mac philosophy. (Note: I said U-n-i-x, not N-e-X-T! :) Considering that Rhapsody will be based more on N-e-X-T rather than U-n-i-x, and that you seem to be arguing that N-e-X-T is a bad basis point because of U-n-i-x, it's probably better to start by looking at N-e-X-T. > : Which is another reason to use Wrappers. Everything the > : application needs is in the wrapper or the system libraries. > > Agreed. They seem like a reasonable solution, provided the practice > is followed consistently (which I assume it is in the NeXT world). > But what about traditional Unix apps? Are the NeXT versions .app > wrappers as well? (I'm talking about things like emacs, not simple > binaries like tar or gzip) Just as a data point, the full NeXTSTEP port of emacs (Emacs.app), embeds all the library information (*.el files, etc.) in a directory structure within the app wrapper. Now, there are a number of more system-level programs (the samba daemon immediately springs to mind) which are more or less straight ports of the Unix versions, and have more of a tendency to scatter files around the hard drive. Personally, I'd rather they were better integrated, and regard those ports as interim systems until someone takes the time to clean them up. But I do appreciate that the interim systems are easily ported. :-) > I still think there has to be some sort of compromise, here. > Although the initial release of Raphsody is bound to be "straight > Nextstep," I believe changes are coming and will be beneficial. Naturally. The question is whether willy-nilly rewrites of the file system or the config file formats are at all beneficial to the system as a whole. I happen to disagree with that presumption. > : Or proud to move on to the next generation of the Mac, invented by > : the same major visionaries of the Mac project.. called "The NeXT > : Computer". > > Yes, that's another option. But why throw away what's good about > 7.x? The question is whether you think, for example, the HFS file system is what's good about 7.x, or whether you think that the functionality it gives the user is what's good. You can have one without needing the other. > For the umpteenth time, I *have* used Next cubes and slabs. I'm not > nearly as familiar with them as I am with the Mac and Unix, however, > which is why 99% of my points dealt with Mac philosophy vs. *Unix* or > *Windows* philosophy (well, if Windows can be said to *have* any > philosophy ;) It's posted to a NeXT group to gauge how much Unix is in > NeXT! There's no reason to get defensive! I'm sorry, John, but your first posts sounded a heck of a lot like you were trying to slam Unix in general, and were assuming that NeXT was the same as all the others. You have never indicated a desire to `gauge how much Unix is in NeXT'. I submit for your consideration the second paragraph you ever posted in the comp.sys.next.programmer newsgroup: Now I know most NeXT users love Unix. I know it's fun to tar -cf - Papers | rsh pooh tar -xf - instead of using Apple file sharing, but the plain fact is: that has never been a part of the Mac OS experience. The fact of the matter is that the above statement indicates an assumption that on the NeXT, sharing files to another machine is a complex CLI routine, and in addition suggests that the reason we NeXT users enjoy the Unix underpinnings is because of the CLI. Neither assumption is correct; not by a long shot. If you knew better, then I'm surprised that you would even mention the above. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.duesseldorf.ecrc.net!news.hamburg.ecrc.net!news.hamburg.pop.de!nordwest.pop.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.94.215.18!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 16:01:21 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 87 Message-ID: <32FF8CA1.33C1@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <01bc171f$45774280$ceec1fcc@rthelen.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22586 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61269 comp.sys.mac.system:198673 Randy Thelen wrote: > First case: The resource fork allows an application to store meta-data about > the file with the file. In your example, you cited a text-editor storing > window position and document preferences with the file. I think we can all > agree that having file preferences on a per-file basis is pretty cool. > Further, this data is automatically copied when the file is copied from > place to place. That's great! This isn't so great in a multi-user environment or network, though. I want files to go where I left them, not where Bob in Accounting left them. Or where my wife left them. NeXT stores this sort of information in a per-user database. Granted, on a machine which only has one used, the issue is pretty moot. > In the second case, Macintosh applications have traditionally stored their > M68000 executable code in the resource fork. Which is, if you really think > about, a pretty unusual thing. Further, the Macintosh 'fat' applications > store their PowerPC data in the data fork of the application. Which, if you > remember, broke some applications which actually stored their preference > data in the data fork of themselves. NeXT's Mach allows a file to have multiple segments. Fat NeXT apps store each architecture's binary in a different segment. Mach knows how to execute the proper segment. Similar idea, different implementation. NeXTSTEP applications used to store app resources in segments. This was stopped for version 3.0, in favor or 'wrappers'. For resources other than the executable, the wrapper approach made more sense. One area where wrappers have an advantage over forks is in a multi-platform environment. Since NeXT applications consist of files and directories, they can 'live' on any OS, so long as there are no filename limits (8.3, etc.). A NeXTSTEP application is runnable regardless of what kind of filesystem it is stored on. It doesn't matter if the application server is a NeXT, a Sun, a Linux box, or an NT box. Conversely, it would be difficult (if not impossible) to run a Macintosh application that is stored on a non-HFS disk. Any 'special' or 'added' functionality NeXT wants is added above the filesystem layer. Which means that features such as fat binary support, application resource, etc. are not dependant upon what filesystem is used. Likewise, NeXT can add new features and functionality without modifying the filesystem. Which means that users can take advantage of the new features without reformatting their disks. And files stored on machines running other operating systems also benefit from those features. > So, what we're seeing here are two of the many uses for multiple forks. A > robust volume format that allows for multiple forks (HFS and NTFS are two > good examples) is a desirable thing to have. However, FileSystems (NFS and > UNIX's inode based FileSystem) which are populare in the networked world do > not address multiple forks. If Apple had adopted NeXT six years ago and > introduced a version of NeXT running on a multiple fork volume format, it > may have encouraged UNIX implementations to adopt additional APIs which > utilize multiple forks. Unfortunately that didn't happen and the UNIX > centric data model of a single fork file has become the de-facto standard. > It's not a bummer. It's reality. The way I look at it is this: TCP/IP is very low level. It doesn't deal with URL's, content types, or other information like that. It's pretty much concerned with sending bytes around, and that's it. This didn't prevent the development of the countless protocols that run on top of it. TCP/IP's architecture didn't prevent the development of HTTP, which provides a foundation for the media-rich content of the web. IMHO, the Unix filesystem is like TCP/IP. The NeXT Workspace is like HTTP, running on top of TCP/IP. The Workspace implements functionality that doesn't exist in the Unix filesystem, much like Netscape implements functionality that doesn't exist in TCP/IP. The Mac filesystem is like a combination of TCP/IP and HTTP. It's an interesting combination, and it adds some useful functionality, but at the cost of compatability with normal 'TCP/IP'. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 00:50:51 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 75 Message-ID: <5dofpb$sh2$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> <5dod8p$j3c@news.tuwien.ac.at> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: bertl@hal.kph.tuwien.ac.at In <5dod8p$j3c@news.tuwien.ac.at> Norbert Heger wrote: > Jonathan Hendry wrote: > > And, again, creator codes don't work well in a multi-user > > environment or network. If one user prefers Painter, and one user > > prefers Photoshop, and they both have to work on a set of files, > > they're continually going to have creator problems, because the > > files will continually have their creator code set to the other > > person's app. > > What about an extension of the file-wrapper concept? > > The wrapper may contain a file named ".fileCreator" to specify the > creator application specific for each user e.g. using the plist-format: > [SNIP] > > The wrapper may also contain a file named ".fileType" to specify > the type of the file-contents (e.g. "tiff"). This file may even > contain A LIST OF TYPES to support multiple filetypes, e.g: > [SNIP] I think the problem with the first one is that then the file grows simply by nature of how many people access the file. I think that would be a BAD thing. I think the _best_ thing would be to add two fields to the Inode which indicate a creator and a type. Have these be an actual string (like "Create" and "gif87" or something). All files would have creators, but for things like executables you wouldn't care about the creator, just the type ("mach-o", "elf", "mac-hfs", etc). What each user would have is a preferences order for which of the two has precedence ("Do I check the creator, and if I can locate that app first, or do I check the type and if I have an app that claims to support it first?" -- "Launch by File Creator" vs "Launch by File Type"). For "launch by file type", the inspector would be exactly like NeXT's now -- you have a list of files that claim to support that file type, and you pick which one you want to launch when you do a "launch by file type". For "launch by file creator", you create a list of "when the file says it was created by app X, I want you to launch it with app Y". Each user keeps these preferences in their own environment/files. Now, it IS debatable whether it needs to be in the inode or a wrapper.. I think the inode is more appropriate, but either is do-able. For backward compatability, the workspace could take files that don't have a creator or type (null strings, which is what happens when you import from older file systems, if they're stored in the inode, or missing ".FileType" and ".FileCreator" files if they're stored in a wrapper) and use their file name extension (hence you still want to have file name extensions for portability, and simple user visual identification). The main problem with using a wrapper is that wrappers are identified by a combination of a) being a directory, and b) file-name extension. Such as "OmniWeb.app", "Mail.app", "OmniImageFilter.service", "DeveloperPatch.pkg", etc.. To make all application data files be wrappers, you'd have to have a list of every possible file extension that you want to treat as a wrapper. If someone creates a new application with a new file name extension, they wont be supported by the GUI until they get it registered with Apple, and Apple propogates that to all of the users. This is not good. One solution: if a directory contains ".Wrapper", it is a wrapper.. and instead of having ".FileType" and ".FileCreator" files, have them simply be line items in the .Wrapper file. Is anyone from the Rhapsody team reading any of this? :-) -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 09:16:03 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22588 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61284 comp.sys.mac.system:198737 rpk@world.std.com (Robert P. Krajewski) writes: > The problem with that is it's much less linear in cost than having a > explicit property. (Especially for recipes like "starting from 8 bytes from > the end of the file...") Actually, it is still *linear* in cost, as long as the recipes are of the standard BSD /etc/magic form, which only examines the first 512 bytes, tops, of the file. Of course, linear doesn't buy you much when you're trying to build a view on a directory AFS-mounted from 3000 miles away. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!usenet From: Bill Keller Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Openstep and multithreads Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:56:00 -0600 Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Lines: 39 Message-ID: <330009F0.367@okstate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: stf-dialup01.cvm.okstate.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------789538EA300F0" X-Sender: Bill Keller (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Priority: Normal ------------789538EA300F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm trying to find some source examples of multithreaded code for Openstep. Or, more specifically, of using NSPort to communicate between threads. I've scoured next-ftp.peak.org, and there's just not much there for openstep yet. Any pointers or examples would be very helpful. Thanks! Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu) --------------------------------- ------------789538EA300F0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I'm trying to find some source examples of multithreaded code for Openstep.  Or, more specifically, of using NSPort to communicate between threads.  I've scoured next-ftp.peak.org, and there's just not much there for openstep yet.  Any pointers or examples would be very helpful.
 
Thanks!

Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu)
---------------------------------
 
------------789538EA300F0-- #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!hunter.premier.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!uucp6.uu.net!world!rpk From: rpk@world.std.com (Robert P. Krajewski) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 03:20:52 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: ppp0a037.std.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 10 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22590 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61287 comp.sys.mac.system:198744 In article , olearydr@freenet.msp.mn.us wrote: >Another (more attractive, in my opinion) option is to inspect the contents >of the file to determine the type. This is done all the time with the >file command in Unix. The problem with that is it's much less linear in cost than having a explicit property. (Especially for recipes like "starting from 8 bytes from the end of the file...") #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 11 Feb 1997 18:59:28 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 95 Message-ID: <5dqfig$pm8@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22591 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61290 comp.sys.mac.system:198754 Stephen Peters (speters@cygnus.com) wrote: : macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: : > It comes down to this: If you believe that config files should be : > changable by directly editing the file, then text files make sense. : > If you believe that config files should only be changed through a : > well-defined UI or GUI, then text files are not the best idea. : How about if you believe that config files should be changed through a : well-defined UI or GUI, but should be robust enough that if someone : ftp's the file in ASCII mode (potentially changing all instances of CR : to CRLF), the program should treat the file as invariant. This is a poor example. Most decent admins have FTP default to binary mode to protect novice users. This is a problem with FTP and not with the file format. By this logic, why shouldn't all apps be text? After all, a user could mangle their executable file if they transfer them in ASCII mode. : Stating whether that config files should not be edited directly by the : user is a completely different question as to whether the files should : be in text or binary. One is a UI philosophy issue, the other is an : implementation issue. It would be nice if UI philosophy and implementation could be so neatly separated. But in my experience, the implementation tends dictate many aspects of the UI. For example, if config files are ASCII, although there may be well-defined interfaces for editing them, those "in the know" will inevitably advise a troubled user to "just use your text editor." Further, there'll be swaps of portions of config files, where a user will say "here's my fonts defaults for WordWanker. Just copy and paste it over the fonts section of your config file." And then, of course, the user tries this and ends up not having some font specified in the file. Just look at the instructions that come with many DOS/Windows games that reccoment adding lines to .INI files by hand simply because it was an "afterthought" to provide a better way to do it. Human nature is such that people will tend to take the easy way out. Et voila, we're back to the problem of users messing with their config files and apps having to eal with garbled settings files. The point is, if settings are made as easily accessible, they're also easily screwed up. No matter how nice the UI is, users will bypass it if they can. I know you're saying to yourself: "Well, that's their own fault. Don't cripple *my* OS to account for dumb users." Yes, I know it sounds pretty totalitarian, but that's kinda the Mac way ;) It's probably an area where most NeXT users will disagree with most "striped-in-the-wool" Mac people. Such is life. : Just as a data point, the full NeXTSTEP port of emacs (Emacs.app), : embeds all the library information (*.el files, etc.) in a directory : structure within the app wrapper. That's good news indeed :) : Now, there are a number of more system-level programs (the samba : daemon immediately springs to mind) which are more or less straight : ports of the Unix versions, and have more of a tendency to scatter : files around the hard drive. Personally, I'd rather they were better : integrated, and regard those ports as interim systems until someone : takes the time to clean them up. But I do appreciate that the interim : systems are easily ported. :-) Which makes me wonder how things like NFS are currently implemented. Although this may be a moot point, since Apple's reportedly re-doing the networking stuff. : > I still think there has to be some sort of compromise, here. : > Although the initial release of Raphsody is bound to be "straight : > Nextstep," I believe changes are coming and will be beneficial. : Naturally. The question is whether willy-nilly rewrites of the file : system or the config file formats are at all beneficial to the system : as a whole. I happen to disagree with that presumption. Actually, the question is whether or not any rewrite would be "willy- nilly." I think there is room for improvement. : The question is whether you think, for example, the HFS file system is : what's good about 7.x, or whether you think that the functionality it : gives the user is what's good. You can have one without needing the : other. As I stated above, I don't think the implementation and the UI can be separated that neatly in real life. Time will tell, I guess... -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.220.251.22!netnews.nwnet.net!serval.net.wsu.edu!not-for-mail From: joerd@mail.wsu.edu Subject: templates Sender: news@serval.net.wsu.edu (News) Message-ID: <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 18:56:33 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: pareto.cbe.wsu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Eloquent) Organization: Washington State University X-Newsreader: Eloquent[2.01]; Eloquent is a Trademark of Take 3 Lines: 16 According to my documentation, the C++ compiler that comes with Nextstep 3.3 does not support templates. Hopefully, I'm misinformed and someone can set me straight. If not, then does the implementation in Nextstep 4.1 support templates? Thanks in advance, Wayne Joerding Professor of Economics Ofc: 509-335-6468 Washington State University FAX: 509-335-4362 PO Box 644741 http://cbeunix.cbe.wsu.edu/~joerd/ Pullman WA 99164 email: joerd@mail.wsu.edu "Stupidity always has the chance of being a capital offense." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 11 Feb 1997 19:38:20 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22593 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61292 comp.sys.mac.system:198768 Raul Sobon (a.sobon@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au) wrote: : John Siracusa wrote: : And ohh how wonderfull the Win95/NT solution of registry is... its NOT : TEXT, : but its binary.. and only regedit can edit it.. and IF IT GETS CURRUPTED : as it often : gets.. BOOM YOUR WIN95 is dead!!! and NOTHING but a clean install will : fix it. : How great non text config files work...NOT! I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.230.225.2!news.BSDI.COM!news.nero.net!newsfeed.orst.edu!news.orst.edu!news From: tpugh@oce.orst.edu (Tim Pugh) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: templates Date: 11 Feb 1997 20:49:28 GMT Organization: Oregon State University Lines: 51 Message-ID: <5dqm0o$c1a@news.orst.edu> References: <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> Reply-To: tpugh@oce.orst.edu (Tim Pugh) NNTP-Posting-Host: tsunami.oce.orst.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(n) Cc: joerd@mail.wsu.edu In NS4.1 release notes: Notes Specific to Release 4.0 PR2 In this release, the compiler is based on the GNU C compiler version 2.5.8. C++ Templates. The compiler has been updated to support C++ templates or parametrized types. For example, consider the following code: #include #include #include typedef SLList StringList; main(){ StringList listOfnames; listOfnames.append("hello world"); cout < cc++ template.cc -o test -lg++ %> test hello world %> In <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> joerd@mail.wsu.edu wrote: > According to my documentation, the C++ compiler that comes with Nextstep 3.3 > does not support templates. Hopefully, I'm misinformed and someone can set > me straight. > > If not, then does the implementation in Nextstep 4.1 support templates? > > Thanks in advance, > > Wayne Joerding > Professor of Economics Ofc: 509-335-6468 > Washington State University FAX: 509-335-4362 -------------------------------------------------------------- Tim F. Pugh email: tpugh@oce.orst.edu Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences voice: 541-737-2270 Oregon State University fax: 541-737-2064 104 Ocean Admin Building Corvallis, Oregon 97331-5503 NeXTmail, MIME, Sun, or Ascii mail ok! -------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news-out.communique.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 97 07:28:27 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dgma6$rat$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dmrj5$si2@nef.ens.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22595 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61301 comp.sys.mac.system:198793 jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) writes: >If this happen on a Mac (and it happens often) : the system doesn't >boot and you can't do almost anything, even if you are an advanced user, and >sometimes you have to reinstall the system. You do? When does this happends? I consider myself a poweruser and I haven't encountered that once. Of course I reinstall my system every now and then, but that has other reasons (new system, should-have-known-better goofs etc.) >>at least, it has the potential to be brilliant, but please don't say that >>it's not unix and please don't say that it's easier for the novice to set up >>and maintain than the Mac OS. >It's not unix, it's Mach and it's often easier for the novice to set up It's not? What's the difference? When I looked at that NeXT-box (wearing a bib) using a standard shell tool, it looked almost exactly like my SunOS 4.1 system. It's not the same kernel, I know that, and it has this great Object Thing, but what else is the big difference? -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:36:45 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22596 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61304 comp.sys.mac.system:198797 John Siracusa wrote: > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem > that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the > registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used by multiple users. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sumter!icardena From: icardena@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu (Ian Patrick Cardenas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: templates Date: 11 Feb 1997 22:04:08 GMT Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 17 Message-ID: <5dqqco$qb6@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> References: <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> Reply-To: icardena@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: sumter.cso.uiuc.edu X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) joerd@mail.wsu.edu writes: > >If not, then does the implementation in Nextstep 4.1 support templates? > According to the release notes, support for C++ templates was added in 4.0. My favorite URL in NeXTanswers is: http://www.next.com/NeXTanswers/HTMLFiles/2455.htmld/2455.html "Release Notes and Installation Guides for all Products" -- Ian P. Cardenas (icardena@uiuc.edu) CCSO Sites Technical Support "I am of the opinion that pizza and beer together are far superior to either in isolation." -James E. Quick on the Apple/NeXT merger #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 13:02:55 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22598 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61305 comp.sys.mac.system:198804 macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem > that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the > registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. And in what file's resource fork would you put, say, hardware configuration information? The registry is little more than a nice little database encompassing all the configuration information for applications, hardware, user profiles, OLE, etc, so that it can be shared among all applications or all users, without the individual items hunting all over the planet. That has nothing to do with the way that it's implemented; it could just as easily be a memory-only system which pulls the information from config files and the individual resource forks in all the applications. Oops. That comes dangerously close to my argument about there being a separation between implementation and UI. You may want to ignore that heresy. :-) -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!masternews.telia.net!newssrv.ita.tip.net!ubnsrv.unisource.ch!scsing.switch.ch!ubaclu.unibas.ch!ubaclu.unibas.ch!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: Re: TCL for NeXT (HELP) Message-ID: <1997Feb11.142706.47358@yogi.urz.unibas.ch> From: frank@ifi.unibas.ch Date: 11 Feb 97 14:27:06 MET Reply-To: frank@ifi.unibas.ch References: <32EEA76D.41C67EA6@oar.net> <1997Feb9.105307.1337@prim.demon.co.uk> Nntp-Posting-Host: woodstock.ifi.unibas.ch X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Lines: 26 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:25027 comp.sys.next.programmer:22599 comp.sys.next.software:28006 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25313 dave@prim.demon.co.uk (Dave Griffiths) wrote: > In article shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > > > >I've posted a copy of tcl7.6 modified to compile under NeXTSTEP3.3 to > >my home page. > > Has anyone ported Tk to NeXTStep? > > Dave > If I properly recall, yes. Some company (of which I of course don't have the name anymore) once did something like TK (ObjectTK?) and sold it commercially. Robert -- Institut fuer Informatik tel +41 (0)61 321 99 67 Universitaet Basel fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15 Robert Frank Mittlere Strasse 142 rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail ok) CH-4056 Basel X400: S=frank;OU=ifi;O=unibas;P=switch;A=arcom;C=ch Switzerland #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.tds.net!NewsWatcher!user From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.lang.pascal.mac,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.arch.embedded,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:33:17 -0500 Organization: Metrowerks Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.137.76.136 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61310 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4039 comp.lang.pascal.mac:4786 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10837 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20754 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5383 comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:2232 comp.arch.embedded:16256 comp.lang.java.programmer:35942 comp.sys.next.misc:25028 comp.sys.next.programmer:22600 In article , tesuji@xs4all.nl (Mark Boon) wrote: >In article , >MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote: > >> >> Pricing and Availability >> >> Metrowerks plans to ship CodeWarrior Latitude in the summer of 1997. >> CodeWarrior Latitude will include all available targets in one library >> package and will sell for $399. >> > >Does that mean with one purchase I'd get CodeWarrior for say Mac, Windows >and Playstation in one package? I'm considering buying a 'Yaroze' when it >becomes available in Europe this month and port our Mac-game to >Playstation. I'm afraid not, The available targets referred to in the CodeWarrior Latitude are the Sun Microsystems' Solaris 2.3+, Silicon Graphics(R)' IRIX(TM) 5.2+ and Hewlett-Packard(R)'s HP-UX(R) 9.03+. Metrowerks CodeWarrior Gold will continue to support MacOS and Windows and Rhapsody. CodeWarrior for Playstation will be a standalone product but the plugins will probably work other IDE's. Ron -- METROWERKS Ron Liechty "Software at Work" MWRon@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com/about/people/rogues.html#mwron #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!mindspring!psinntp!aadt.sdt.com!not-for-mail From: Eric Smalling Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Brief Editor Key Bindings? Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:09:34 -0600 Organization: SABRE Decision Technologies Lines: 59 Message-ID: <3300EE1D.67C2@amrcorp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 144.9.108.228 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------EFE51C17560" X-Sender: Eric Smalling (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Priority: Normal ------------EFE51C17560 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Has anyone out there wrote a "StandardKeyBindings.dict" to remap OpenStep 4.1's code editor to match that of the Borland "Brief" editor? If so, please E-Mail me and let me know where I can get a hold of such a file! :OP Thanks, ____________________________________________________________________ Eric A. Smalling SABRE Decision Technologies - Ft Worth, Texas USA --=== ------=== The Any views expressed are mine alone and are in no ----------- SABRE way the views of AMR or any of it's subsidiaries. ------=== Group --=== email:Eric_Smalling@amrcorp.com Corp Web Site: http://www.amrcorp.com/sabr_grp/sdt/sdt.htm ____________________________________________________________________ ------------EFE51C17560 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Has anyone out there wrote a "StandardKeyBindings.dict" to remap OpenStep 4.1's code editor to match that of the Borland "Brief" editor?  If so, please E-Mail me and let me know where I can get a hold of such a file!  :OP
 
Thanks,
 ____________________________________________________________________ 
 Eric A. Smalling                                     
 SABRE Decision Technologies - Ft Worth, Texas USA      --===        
                                                      ------=== The    
 Any views expressed are mine alone and are in no   ----------- SABRE
 way the views of AMR or any of it's subsidiaries.    ------=== Group
                                                        --===
                   email:Eric_Smalling@amrcorp.com
    Corp Web Site: http://www.amrcorp.com/sabr_grp/sdt/sdt.htm
 ____________________________________________________________________
 
------------EFE51C17560-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.lang.pascal.mac,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.arch.embedded,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: 11 Feb 1997 18:26:46 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61316 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4042 comp.lang.pascal.mac:4788 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10838 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20756 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5384 comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:2233 comp.arch.embedded:16262 comp.lang.java.programmer:35969 comp.sys.next.misc:25029 comp.sys.next.programmer:22602 In article , MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote: > The available targets referred to in the CodeWarrior > Latitude are the Sun Microsystems' Solaris 2.3+, Silicon Graphics(R)' > IRIX(TM) 5.2+ and Hewlett-Packard(R)'s HP-UX(R) 9.03+. > Metrowerks CodeWarrior Gold will continue to support MacOS and Windows and > Rhapsody. Here's something I've been wondering.. will CodeWarrior on Rhapsody be able to build for OPENSTEP for Mach (any architecture, such as Intel, NeXT, etc.), or for OPENSTEP/Enterprise (i.e., OpenStep on Windows NT). Or will the only OpenStep platform it can build for be Rhapsody/PPC? (I think this Newsgroups line needs to be trimmed, but I'm not sure which groups the posters on this thread are reading...) -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Openstep and multithreads Date: 11 Feb 1997 23:52:17 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 3 Message-ID: <5dr0nh$ugo@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <330009F0.367@okstate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: kellerw@okstate.edu There is a nice small example of multi-threads, locks, and communication in the PDO examples that come with OpenStep. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:33:15 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 75 Message-ID: <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22604 comp.sys.mac.system:198857 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4044 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61325 There has been an interesting discussion going on in comp.lang.eiffel which is relevant to why Apple should do much better in its efforts than just Unix. The basic problem with Unix and many other OSs is they do not notify the user of resource problems, such as disk full, file not found, memory short, etc, they just kill the program straight away. This leads to many applications having superfluous code to handle these exception conditions. This is very common code which really should be in the OS. Here is a snippet from the comp.lang.eiffel "Exceptions and Robustness" thread, as a request to Apple to not just blindly adopt Unix: --------------------------------------- Kent Tong wrote: > > Ian Joyner wrote: > > >My arguments here are the same as for files. Unfortunately, most OSs > > Actually what do you mean by this? The OS should handle a file not > found error? As shown in my previous example, this could be > inappropriate. It could be inappropriate, but mostly, it is entirely appropriate. A file is a resource that an application needs. Files are managed by the operating system, and in many environments, the fact that a file is not present does not represent a bug in the program, it represents an operations error. Thus the situation should be resolved between the operating system and the operator (which on a PC will be the end user themselves). The fact that Unix does not provide these facilities in a shared environment is even more unforgivable, and is a serious weakness of Unix. Let's consider the scenario. 1) A file is not found. 2) The OS tries alternatives to find the file, maybe on an archive. 3) If still not found, the OS notifies the operator/user of the problem (eg, via a dialog box). 4) The user responds is various ways: a) makes file available from some other source the OS can't find automatically, once the file is loaded, the program continues quite unknowingly that there was any problem; b) responds that the file is optional and should be skipped (program could contain logic to handle this situation); c) terminates the program (which could raise an exception to be handled in a number of different ways). If you are really running in an environment where the application logic depends on the availability of a file, then you should write some code before you access the file: if f.available then end (Notice I use available, not exists. Exists means a file might be present, but locked by another process, ie., it exists but is not available). Pushing these concerns into the operating system is an essential step towards providing more robust environments for programs to run. This makes no difference whether we are talking about mainframe or PC environments, it is just good OS (file manager) design. (I think we should all run down to our Unisys A Series shop to learn how a real operating system works, they have been doing this for decades, and application development and system operations is far simpler). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 15:40:04 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 131 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> <5dqfig$pm8@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22605 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61326 comp.sys.mac.system:198858 macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: > Stephen Peters (speters@cygnus.com) wrote: > : How about if you believe that config files should be changed through a > : well-defined UI or GUI, but should be robust enough that if someone > : ftp's the file in ASCII mode (potentially changing all instances of CR > : to CRLF), the program should treat the file as invariant. > > This is a poor example. Fair enough, I'll grant that. Although, one note on your comment: > By this logic, why shouldn't all apps be text? You're talking to someone who's been doing a *lot* of programming in interpreted languages lately, so this may not be the best example :-) > It would be nice if UI philosophy and implementation could be so > neatly separated. But in my experience, the implementation tends > dictate many aspects of the UI. Although this may be true in your experience, it's a bad thing. If the implementation is dictating the interface, you've done your design segment wrong. IMHO, of course. > For example, if config files are ASCII, although there may be > well-defined interfaces for editing them, those "in the know" will > inevitably advise a troubled user to "just use your text editor." > Further, there'll be swaps of portions of config files, where a user > will say "here's my fonts defaults for WordWanker. Just copy and > paste it over the fonts section of your config file." And then, of > course, the user tries this and ends up not having some font > specified in the file. Even if it's binary format, some user who thinks he knows more than he does may try to pull up the file and edit the strings inside of it. Bottom line: If your application can't gracefully handle arbitrary changes like the above to its config files, then it shouldn't be putting the config files somewhere where a naive user can get to them easily. If that means making them hidden files in an app wrapper, then that's what you do. If that means you put big warning messages in the file saying don't edit this except through `Preferences', then that's what you do. However, none of this has anything to do with what format the config file is in. In NT 3.x, a naive NT user could screw up his system royally simply by playing around in the registry. That's because of a problem with letting the user play with things that he probably shouldn't. In NT 4.0, they locked it down so that the user could change fewer things (so that the user can simply screw up his own account). Again, UI philosophy. Not implementation. > The point is, if settings are made as easily accessible, they're > also easily screwed up. No matter how nice the UI is, users will > bypass it if they can. Which is another UI philosophy issue. Should the users be prevented from bypassing the UI, or should they be allowed to bypass it with the realization that they're walking in unknown territory? > I know you're saying to yourself: "Well, that's their own fault. > Don't cripple *my* OS to account for dumb users." Yes, I know it > sounds pretty totalitarian, but that's kinda the Mac way ;) Which? Totalitarianism or crippling the OS? :-) > It's probably an area where most NeXT users will disagree with most > "striped-in-the-wool" Mac people. Such is life. Look, I'm not arguing that we must have Unix, and that it must be completely visible to the users. If anything, I'm arguing the opposite. Instead, I'm arguing that the line of reasoning (and this seems to be what you're trying to suggest) `users shouldn't edit config files, therefore they shouldn't be in text; a lot of Unix apps use text configs, therefore the Unix way of doing things is bad' has a number of fallacies in it. Not the least of which is the notion that config files need to be in binary in order to prevent users from playing with them. > : Naturally. The question is whether willy-nilly rewrites of the file > : system or the config file formats are at all beneficial to the system > : as a whole. I happen to disagree with that presumption. > > Actually, the question is whether or not any rewrite would be "willy- > nilly." I think there is room for improvement. No, the question is whether the cure is better than the disease. Of course there's room for improvement. But you find the improvements by looking at the problem you want to solve (which in this case is fundamentally an interface problem), and deciding where to improve it. > : The question is whether you think, for example, the HFS file system is > : what's good about 7.x, or whether you think that the functionality it > : gives the user is what's good. You can have one without needing the > : other. > > As I stated above, I don't think the implementation and the UI can > be separated that neatly in real life. John, I'd like you to close your eyes and imagine something. Suppose that someone created a Unix daemon which handled the AppleShare protocol and implemented an HFS-style system on top of NFS. Creating an `HFS file' actually made two separate files on the disk, one which was file.data and one which was, perhaps, file.rsrc. Trying to access the resource fork of the `HFS file' would pull data from the .rsrc, and vice versa. You could then mount this Unix disk on your Mac just as if it was an AppleShare'd Mac file system. Also imagine (as long as we're dreaming here) that they'd worked out most of the bugs. Honestly now, would you care that it's a Unix box that just looked like a Mac? Would you notice? Now imagine that the resource forks were instead held in a system-specific database that the system maintained and referenced, but the UI remained the same. Do you care? Will you notice? Right there, that's the difference between implementation and interface. Of course they can be separated, and in real life, too. The user doesn't care about resource forks, or file systems, or inodes; only nerds like you and I do. The user only cares about folders, documents, and double-clicking. (As a side note, I notice that there actually is something called AUFS, which works like the above, although it stores the resource fork in a hidden directory on the Unix file system. I'm unclear as to how well it works.) -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!hay-ca4-14.ix.netcom.com!user From: jamaro@ix.netcom.com (Josue E. Amaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: [TEST IGNORE] Test Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 19:52:25 -0800 Organization: Netcom Lines: 1 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca4-14.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Feb 11 9:52:17 PM CST 1997 Testing my account #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!hay-ca1-13.ix.netcom.com!user From: jamaro@ix.netcom.com (Josue E. Amaro) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: [ANN] Developer proposition Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 20:49:45 -0800 Organization: Netcom Lines: 67 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: hay-ca1-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Feb 11 10:49:38 PM CST 1997 The Rebellion Software An Internet Based Virtual Corporation ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vision The coming of age of the Internet has created a vast, powerful and easy to use information network that allows rapid and effective communication between geographically disperse people. It is through this medium that The Rebellion Software is possible. Bringing together all available software developers, to support a wide variety of platforms, with one common goal: Create applications that make this computer useful. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mission Statement To bring the software functionality available to Microsoft platforms ( DOS WINDOWS WINDOWS NT) to our supported platforms through the combined efforts of independent software developers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Need Millions of computer users have computers that do not run one of Microsoft's operating systems. These users sometimes are forced to give up their computers for a Windows or DOS system because the software they need is not available in other operating systems. The Products Which products do we seek to create? The Rebellion will use a radical new concept on the selection of products to create, We will ask the users! We will ask users to let us know what are their most pressing needs and form groups of programmers to provide a well engineered, robust solution. The Platforms We expect to support the following platforms. 1.Java 2.Linux\MkLinux 3.Macintosh (System 6 and System 7.x) 4.NextStep\OpenStep\Rhapsody(MacOS 8) 5.OS/2 6.Amiga 7.BeOS 8.Netware\Intranetware; 9.Any platform we can recruit developers for. Come One, Come All! Except those MS users,they have everything they need, or so I heard. Interested? GO TO #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!208.206.176.15!dimensional.com!not-for-mail From: "Eric Stadtherr" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 97 21:29:04 -0700 Organization: Dimensional Communications Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: p20.pm-9.pm.dimcom.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Cyberdog/2.0a2 X-News-Servers: news.dimensional.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.dimensional.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.dimensional.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior, nntp://news.dimensional.com/comp.sys.mac.system Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22608 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61335 comp.sys.mac.system:198892 >> The Real solution, a serious update of the file system, seems >> unthinkable to the unix community. > >The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the >real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a >high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to embed >them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only with the >organization and management of the raw bits into directories and >files. The file system doesn't need to know the file types, but the >`workspace' does. I think it's still an open question as to which >system needs to be reconfigured to solve this. > > The file system, by nature, should provide a means for the operating system to store and retrieve files, and information about those files. The Unix file system is based on the (perhaps outdated) notion that a file is a collection of bytes. The nature of the collection of bytes, and the uses to which it is put, are determined at a higher level by the application programs that access the file system through the operating system. While this blanket treatment of files has advantages in terms of portability and cross-platform interoperability, it is limited in its usefulness in a modern operating system. In a truly "modern" operating system, should the file system not be "modern" as well? The knowledge that a filesystem will contain heterogeneous types of files is instrumental in the design of a "modern" filesystem. I believe Apple, when it created HFS, pulled the concept of a filesystem from the '60s at least into the '80s. An HFS file, in addition to having a name, location, size, and extent(s), also has a type, creator, and other flags useful to the operating system that controls the file system. This concept not only makes the filesystem better suited for storage of modern files, but also allows the operating system to take advantage of the additional file information. Constructs such as the Desktop database, MacOS Easy Open, Drag-and-Drop application launching, etc., would not be nearly as elegant or intuitive if not for the support of the filesystem. HFS is not perfect. The allocation-block limitation should certainly be addressed. However, the designers of the Rhapsody filesystem would be making a mistake if they blind themselves to the intuitive knowledge that a file has more than a name and size. Therefore, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about the role of a filesystem. -Eric Stadtherr SingleTrac Software #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!netnews.com!news.enteract.com!insync!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.4.164.94!gail.ripco.com!news.tds.net!aumi3-a06.ccm.tds.net!user From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 00:29:45 -0500 Organization: Metrowerks Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: aumi3-a06.ccm.tds.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61336 comp.sys.next.programmer:22609 In article <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: >Here's something I've been wondering.. will CodeWarrior on Rhapsody be >able to build for OPENSTEP for Mach (any architecture, such as Intel, >NeXT, etc.), or for OPENSTEP/Enterprise (i.e., OpenStep on Windows NT). >Or will the only OpenStep platform it can build for be Rhapsody/PPC? I don't know at this time. >(I think this Newsgroups line needs to be trimmed, but I'm not sure >which groups the posters on this thread are reading...) I trimmed it a lot :) Ron -- METROWERKS Ron Liechty "Software at Work" MWRon@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com/about/people/rogues.html#mwron #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!uunet!in3.uu.net!204.191.213.61!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!n4tor.istar!news3.idirect.com!oasis.idirect.com!linus Newsgroups: comp.dcom.fax,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer From: linus@idirect.com (Goncalo Rodrigues) Subject: Want partner(s) in multi-platform FAX related programming project X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) Reply-To: gnrodrig@phobos.senecac.on.ca X-Newsmaster: Laszlo Herczeg (las@idirect.com) Lines: 26 Organization: Wintermute Softworks X-Client-Port: 1438 Message-ID: X-Nntp-Posting-Host: oasis.idirect.com Date: 12 Feb 97 04:35:29 UTC Lines: 26 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.dcom.fax:16343 comp.os.linux.development.apps:31259 comp.os.linux.misc:172717 comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc:113714 comp.os.os2.programmer.misc:50629 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20760 comp.sys.next.programmer:22610 As the subject indicates, I'm looking for a few partners (possibly a representative from each target platform) in a fax-related programming project. Whether a specific platform is supported rests mainly on the difficulty in doing so, and whether there is a candidate experienced on that platform. Though there will ideally be someone "in charge" of each platform, everyone is able to contribute to any part of the project. Potential targets would be Linux (*nix), Win32, Mac and OS/2, etc, unless this proves too ambitious. I, personally, will be concentrating on Linux (and portable code, of course). Qualified candidates must merely think of themselves as capable C programmers ... no professional experience at all is required (but we could use some hardcore graphics manipulators, compression gurus, security officianados and a guy who can construct a good Makefile ;) Now a bit about the project itself ... A document transmission/reception system, also capable of routing faxes over the Internet, including support for SSL (using SSLeay, ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au:/pub/Crypto/SSL) for secure net transmissions (be prepared to become a munitions exporter :). Support for all conventional fax standards, as well as ITU-T30E (colour fax, if the specs are easily obtainable). Integrated into each platform with an (optional) GUI front-end. Windows (Mac?) users probably have an abundance of this type of software (well, not quite _this_ type), but the other platforms seem lacking (IMO). The ideal situation would be an NFS served source tree (w/CVS?) on someone's box with a static IP that we can mount anytime. And we should set up some means of group communication maybe? The application will be made freely available. This isn't intended to be for profit, but who am I to dismiss fame and fortune. ;) Candidates should [R]eply by e-mail ... flames can be [f]ollowed up. :) -- Goncalo Rodrigues (please note the Reply-To field in case you have a broken news reader) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: 12 Feb 1997 00:45:23 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5drldj$d5k@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61344 comp.sys.next.programmer:22611 In article , MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote: > In article <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > >Here's something I've been wondering.. will CodeWarrior on Rhapsody be > >able to build for OPENSTEP for Mach (any architecture, such as Intel, > >NeXT, etc.), or for OPENSTEP/Enterprise (i.e., OpenStep on Windows NT). > >Or will the only OpenStep platform it can build for be Rhapsody/PPC? > I don't know at this time. Okay.. here's another question, then. For the developer release of Rhapsody slated for this summer, is it known yet whether the tools released at that time will include CodeWarrior, or an interim release of NeXT's ProjectBuilder until CodeWarrior is fully ported to OpenStep? (Incidentally, I hope tools eventually are produced that will migrate projects between CodeWarrior on Rhapsody and PB on OPENSTEP..) Also, has Metrowerks decided to provide something like InterfaceBuilder, or will that be provided by Apple? If it's still too early to tell, I understand.. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 97 08:07:20 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22612 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61349 comp.sys.mac.system:198948 Stephen Peters writes: >However, I note that changing something like the opener application >should never be considered part of the `power user' realm. It should >be easily viewable through a `file attributes' box. Yes, it should be easily viewable and easily editable, but the user should by no means *have* to deal with it unless he/she want's to. >The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the >real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a >high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to embed >them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only with the >organization and management of the raw bits into directories and Well, maybee you are right, but let us at least agree that an update of the file system in which a time stamp for *when the file was created* (to complement the three time stamps that exist in the Unix file system describing when the file was last accesses, modified and referenced - if memory serves me) is added would be needed?! And while we are at it it would be very nice to have a file attribute saying if the file is in use (busy) or not, right? The UFS has it's strengths, especially when coupled with NFS over TCP/IP, but that does not mean it cannot be im- proved. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!noris.net!shinto!news From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) Subject: Re: Loads of bugs in Developer 4.0/Mach Message-ID: Sender: news@shinto.nbg.sub.org X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next/Images/People/tomi.shinto.nbg.sub.org.tiff Organization: STEPeople's home (A NUGI member) X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <5cqh6k$bt5$1@news1.xs4all.nl> <5crrde$19s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <32F38AB7.27ED@online.disney.com> <5dac36$bps@knuth.visgen.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:00:51 GMT Lines: 34 robert@visgen.com (Robert Osborne) wrote: > Joseph Panico wrote: > >4.1 Mach PB has many, many problems. > > Tell me about it! Has anybody heard back from NeXT? I've submitted > half a dozen or more bugs so far ... > > >- It's very easy to crash. Go to classes in the project file browser, > >double click on a .m, then double click on a .h-- splat! > > Interesting. What happens to me is that suddenly there is no key window. > Almost like it wants to open a new window but can't ... > > My favourite bug is that if I go to a block of code and type: > > /* > > and hit return PB crashes! Not always - seems to be dependant upon > the code above that line (I think the autoformater is bailing ...) > While annoying at least the "/*" is documented in the release notes of PB 4.0. Don't know about 4.1, but at least in 4.0 you have to be careful with copying "demo" code from any RTF source (like the documentation) into your ASCII sources. This can heavily damage them if you are not careful. Turning off autoindexing and not copying RTF into sources did reduced the number of crashes on 4.0 significatly. Aloha Tomi #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!noris.net!shinto!news From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) Subject: ColorSync and DPS (was: OpenStep: Some questions) Message-ID: Sender: news@shinto.nbg.sub.org X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next/Images/People/tomi.shinto.nbg.sub.org.tiff Organization: STEPeople's home (A NUGI member) X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <5ddv6g$81v@news.xmission.com> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:40:50 GMT Lines: 68 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:188242 comp.sys.next.programmer:22614 maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote: > > I would say you're right. The addition of Pantone a while back, > > for the user, was a "minor" change and didn't impact the interface > > much at all--other than making every app on the machine understand > > Pantone, that is--and there's no reason any other color model or > > system couldn't be added just as easily. :-) > > Yeah, that's what I was thinking. The issue appears to be limited > entirely to making DPS understand colour correction, because ColorSync > actually modified the colour tables of the monitors for correct display, > as well as providing a natural "selector". OPENSTEP usually works with device independant color. The NSColorPanel returns this type of values. As somebody already mentioned DPS already supports calibrated (NXCalibratedRGBColorSpace, "This color space is based on the CCIR Rec 709 phosphor set, balance to a white point of D65") and device color (NXDeviceRGBColorSpace) spaces. Now this is not only PANTONE vs RGB. But calibrated RGB vs. "raw" RGB. The flexible approach of (D)PS allowed NeXT to add a lot of hooks. So you can adjust the transfer function to the imagebuffer which gives you one level of color correction. For CMYK you can use setcmykadjust, setcmykadjustparams, setdefaultcmykadjust to control hwo CMYK gets mapped to RGB. (and 4.0 does cmykadjust by default . As I had to learn...its makes a huge difference). You can also create your own color spaces if you wish. But the calibration so far, has been made for screens only...and only for NeXT MegaPixel devices. So ColorSync does not have to add any new features into the DPS/AppKit combo but could just fill the NetInfo database with the right color correction parameters for your current devices. It might also change the definiton of the "default" calibrated color space. Btw. this is where Win95 has something OPENSTEP lacks...Configure App does not offer you a way to define the monitor which is attached to a certain graphics card. While Win95 propably might not take any reasonable benefits from defining the monitor....on a real system it could automatically ensure that only reasonalbe resolution/refresh rates can be chosen...and that the right color profiles get installed automatically. So to some degree ColorSync might get integratedin the Configure application. Only Apple or NeXT folks could elaborate, if there is some code inside ColorSync which is more efficient then the one in DPS. If there is, this might be another level of "integration". > > That's beyond the scope of a USENET posting. It can be done--I > > recommend looking at example code on the ftp archives or on an > > OPENSTEP system > > I'd need one first. :-) > Btw.. is there any legal problem with making the entire RTF(D) documentation of OPENSTEP available ? Perhaps someone (NeXT ?, Scott & stepwise ?) could link the References/Release Notes into the web somehow. Or make PS (PDF) files out of them. This could help many Mac developers who want to read the details but have no Intel to install OPENSTEP. NeXT ?...this should be an easy task and propable worth the effort. Aloha Tomi #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 06:54:28 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 71 Message-ID: <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22615 comp.sys.mac.system:198958 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61354 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4048 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > There has been an interesting discussion going on in comp.lang.eiffel > which is relevant to why Apple should do much better in its efforts > than just Unix. The basic problem with Unix and many other OSs is > they do not notify the user of resource problems, such as disk full, > file not found, memory short, etc, they just kill the program straight > away. Under NEXTSTEP, when you start running low on disk space, the Workspace will pop-up an alert panel warning you that disk space is low. When you run critically low on space, you'll get another warning suggesting rebooting in order to free up space by shrinking the swapfile. Under any Unix, when a processes tries to open() a file, it can receive any of about a dozen errors, including EACCESS (file not found, or bad permissions). There are not fatal errors, and the OS does _not_ kill the process when they occur. It's up to the process to implement appropriate error handling upon receiving these errors. As for "memory short" condition, what precisely does this mean under an OS which provides a good virtual memory implementation? Normally, there are two problems which can occur: running low on disk space because of swapfile size, or excessive paging due to a lack of physical memory. The former condition will cause malloc() to return NULL and set ENOMEM (again, the OS does _not_ kill the process, and it's up to the process to detect and respond to such a condition appropriately). The latter condition represents a situation where the machines' physical resources are inadequate for the workload being attempted, and Unix system pagers will try to page and/or swap out processes to reduce the phsyical memory frame requirements because they pay attention to the page fault frequency rate (ie, they use a global PFF algorithm in association with their page replacement algorithm). > This leads to many applications having superfluous code to > handle these exception conditions. This is very common code which > really should be in the OS. Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These two statements are mutually contradictory. How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting the process decide for itself what should be done? [ ... ] > (I think we should all run down to our Unisys A Series shop to > learn how a real operating system works, they have been doing > this for decades, and application development and system operations > is far simpler). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are > Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are > i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys > | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Does anyone besides me detect a common bias between the last paragraph and the .signature? -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 1997 08:22:32 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5dsg6o$dtd@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22616 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61356 comp.sys.mac.system:198966 In article , peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) wrote: > Well, maybee you are right, but let us at least agree that an update of > the file system in which a time stamp for *when the file was created* > (to complement the three time stamps that exist in the Unix file system > describing when the file was last accesses, modified and referenced - Accessed, modified, or changed.. "referenced" sounds the same as "accessed" to me. > if memory serves me) is added would be needed?! Yes. > And while we are at it > it would be very nice to have a file attribute saying if the file is in > use (busy) or not, right? No, I see no need to write that data out to disk ever. It's not a static attribute of a file. There should be a system call to detect that. Such an attribute may become more desirable if the filesystem is a remote mount, like AFS or something, so you can't just ask your own OS directly.. but I think AFS has its own methods of handling busy files anyway.. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!news.asi.fr!cornut!rflattin From: rflattin@cornut.fr (Roger Flattin) Reply-To: rflattin@cornut.fr Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Distribution: world Subject: Windows Native Controls through OpenStep ? Date: 12 Feb 1997 14:26:20 GMT Message-ID: <3326541822.31250673@cornut.fr> Organization: Cornut Informatique SA Lines: 30 Hi, I have some questions about OpenStep for Windows NT, here is some of them : 1. I'm wondering wheither the GUI objects in OpenStep NT windows are native or not ? 2. Does OpenStep NT use Display Poscript to draw buttons, text fields or does it use the native Windows objects ? 3. Can a window be drawn without a call to display postscript (a window that contains only controls)? 4. How much memory resources does display postscript need ? I'm asking these questions because we are looking at OpenStep to develop client/serveur application which doesn't make intensive use of graphics. Some we have no direct need to use DPS. Thanks in advance, Roger FLATTIN rflattin@cornut.fr ---->> On our site a SHAREWARE SQL Query Tool <<-------- --->> Don't forget to Try also our C/S Dev tool <<------- CORNUT Informatique SA Client/Server & SQL RDBMS BP 702 - 42950 St Etienne cedex 9 http://www.cornut.fr/ France email: info@cornut.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!biosci!news.alaska.edu!uas-du-01-03.jun.alaska.edu!user From: anti_email_spam@real.address.in.sig (M) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:04:59 -0900 Organization: UAS Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <0myB5iy00iWY461F04@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: uas-du-01-03.jun.alaska.edu X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22618 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4049 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61359 comp.sys.mac.system:198975 soup@jtan.com (John R. Campbell) wrote: > So the Mac handles things oddly, and, because there is no > CLI available it cannot do any task that hasn't been pre- > programmed. Unix (and, to a lesser extent, MS-DOG) can use > small programs in a "pipeline" to handle extremely complex > tasks. I take it you've never heard of AppleScript or Frontier. . . :) No, It's not the same as unix pipes, but it can act as the glue between apps to do pipe-like operations. Plus, it can have control over GUI based apps in ways that I've never seen on any other system. ---< jsmdt@acad1.alaska.edu >------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news.duq.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:32:39 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 71 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22619 comp.sys.mac.system:198984 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61360 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Peter Moller@dna.lth.se >> The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the >> real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a >> high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to embed >> them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only with the >> organization and management of the raw bits into directories and > > Well, maybee you are right, but let us at least agree that an update of > the file system in which a time stamp for *when the file was created* > (to complement the three time stamps that exist in the Unix file system > describing when the file was last accesses, modified and referenced - > if memory serves me) is added would be needed?! The "last modified" timestamp is generally used as the time when the file was created, and the two are equivalent in the case of files that have never been modified. If you care about keeping exact track of earlier revisions of a file for whatever reason, you can use a revision control system. It will keep track of all (or some) of the intermediate versions and their timestamps. Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file when you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified version. Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care about that timestamp? > And while we are at it it would be very nice to have a file attribute > saying if the file is in use (busy) or not, right? Maybe. Currently, many systems keep track of busy files by maintaining state in the kernel, and various locking mechanisms like lockf(), flock(), etc exist. These provide semantics for doing things like shared and exclusive locks, or for locking sections of files instead of locking the entire thing. Having a single file attribute to indicate a file is busy would not be adequate to replace the more complex behaviors described above, but it would still be useful in some cases. > The UFS has it's strengths, especially when coupled with NFS over TCP/IP, > but that does not mean it cannot be improved. Certainly. I don't have any objections to augmenting the UFS in order to implement the Mac's current creator and filetype attributes. I think it's likely that Apple will do something along those lines because it would simplify the transition for Mac users who expect to see those in Rhapsody. However, those Mac attributes are not adequate for handling the document-to-application mapping under a multiuser OS for reasons that we've already been through. Given that this is the case, I expect to see that there will continue to exist something at a higher level which lets users select on an individual basis which applications they would prefer to have open various document types. Such a system could rely on just the file extension if the Mac-like creator/filetype attributes are not available or are not recognized [consider a file that has been FTP'ed or is being accessed via a remote filesystem like NFS, AFS, etc], but could also pay attention to the Mac attributes if they are available and valid. That seems to combine the desirable features without changing the way either current Mac users or current NEXTSTEP users like to have things work.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sun, 09 Feb 1997 17:47:50 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 55 Message-ID: <32FE5416.59CA@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22620 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61370 comp.sys.mac.system:199008 John Siracusa wrote: > > Second, *programming a robust API for* changing text files is much more > difficult and inefficient than a structured binary format. No it's not. NeXT's FoundationKit introduces something called a 'propertylist'. The classes in the FoundationKit (NSString, NSArray, NSDictionary) understand PropertyList format. You can write an NSDictionary to a file using PropertyList format. What you get looks like this: { Hostname = 'Foo'; IPAddress = '127.0.0.1'; Domain = 'steeldriving.com'; Users = ('tom','dick','harry'); LoginInfo = { LoginName = 'anonymous'; Password = 'guest'; }; } (An example dictionary with networking information.) The NSDictionary uses key = value formatting. The value can be a String, an Array, or another Dictionary. There's no limit to how complex the file can get, or how 'deep'. Read such a file in, and you've got a Dictionary object, which you can query ( [ipDictionary objectForKey:@"Hostname"] ). Make the changes, and save it out again. NeXT uses this to store EOModel objects. An EOModel is an object which relates database tables to Enterprise Object classes. An EOModel object can be written out to a file, and that file is an ascii propertyList format representation like that shown above. > It comes down to this: If you believe that config files should be > changable by directly editing the file, then text files make sense. If > you believe that config files should only be changed through a > well-defined UI or GUI, then text files are not the best idea. Nope. EOModel objects are stored as ascii text, but 99% of the time are edited with an excellent GUI tool, EOModeler.app. Sometimes, you've got to make global changes in an EOModel. It's much easier to open it up in a text editor and do a search & replace than to use the GUI app to do it. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!btco!newsadm From: Gary Zhang Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:44:42 -0500 Organization: Bankers Trust Company Lines: 21 Message-ID: <3301F37A.4B3@ix.netcom.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAD8FA.2C40@subsequent.com> Reply-To: gzhang@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: algsvw0077.btco.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22621 comp.sys.mac.system:199010 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61373 IMHO which file system to choose really is not that important -- that is, from a user's perspective. Ideally users (programmers being the exception) should be shielded from the underlying file system. Having the users to deal with file system directly is a major design flaw in all the OSs to date (execuse me if I'm wrong on this one). Why should a user be concerned with saving a file, creating a directory, and managing folders? If computers are really smart they should do all these for the user automatically. Ever tried to teach your mom to use a word processor? It all goes fine until you ask her to SAVE the file? No matter what you try she is not going to understand why you need to do this. The point -- information storage should be automatic and information retrieval should be intellegent. Right now the computer behaves like a dumb warehouse where YOU have to do the cleanning and organizing, while ideally it should be a SMART assistant who takes care tedious works for you -- "computer, here is my memo, don't lose it!" or "computer, I want to continue working on the unfinished article I started yesterday!" THAT's what a computer should do! ... I think Apple has a chance to create a really greate new OS. While trying to maintain compatibility, they should also build something revolutionary. An integrated, INTELLEGENT document management system should be one of those to consider... Just my 2 cents. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu!shaffer From: shaffer@durer.phyast.pitt.edu (C. David Shaffer) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: templates Date: 12 Feb 1997 16:28:44 GMT Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> <5dqm0o$c1a@news.orst.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: durer.phyast.pitt.edu In-reply-to: tpugh@oce.orst.edu's message of 11 Feb 1997 20:49:28 GMT Hello, I've posted about this before. My station is running 3.3 (academic bundle). My Workspace Manager reports: System Release 3.3, Workspace Version 374.6. Now if I ask for my complier version I get: ernie> cc -v Reading specs from /lib/m68k/specs NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-437.2.6, gcc version 2.5.8 That's 2.5.8! In fact, the template example that was posted previously compiles just fine on my machine. What gives? Not that I'm complaining but it seems that at least some of the 3.3 academic bundles shipped with gcc 2.5.8. David -- David Shaffer Department of Physics Wayne State College Wayne, NE 68787 shaffer@phyast.pitt.edu -- David Shaffer Department of Physics Wayne State College Wayne, NE 68787 shaffer@phyast.pitt.edu #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newstand.syr.edu!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!cornellcs!rochester!ringger From: "Eric K. Ringger" Subject: Re: TCL for NeXT (HELP) In-Reply-To: Your message of "11 Feb 1997 14:27:06 +0700." <1997Feb11.142706.47358@yogi.urz.unibas.ch> Message-ID: <199702121643.LAA03436@slate.cs.rochester.edu> Followup-To: comp.sys.next.software Sender: ringger@cs.rochester.edu (Eric K. Ringger) Cc: comp.sys.next.misc, comp.sys.next.software, comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: University of Rochester Computer Science Dept Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 11:43:30 -0500 Lines: 24 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.misc:25038 comp.sys.next.software:28018 comp.sys.next.programmer:22623 frank@ifi.unibas.ch wrote: >dave@prim.demon.co.uk (Dave Griffiths) wrote: [...] >> Has anyone ported Tk to NeXTStep? [...] >If I properly recall, yes. Some company (of which I of course don't >have the name anymore) once did something like TK (ObjectTK?) and >sold it commercially. [...] I believe that you're thinking of Objective-TCL, from Pedja Bogdanovic at TipTop Software ( http://www.tiptop.com/ ). The package does not include Tk. [Follow-ups to comp.sys.next.software only.] --Eric --- Eric K. Ringger mailto:ringger@cs.rochester.edu Dept. of Computer Science Office: +1-716-275-0922; Lab: +1-716-275-1083 University of Rochester Fax: +1-716-461-2018 Rochester NY 14627-0226 http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/ringger/ ||||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | ||||| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Dynamic flag in 4.0 and 4.1 Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:53:30 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5dt3ja$nc3@news.NeXT.COM> References: <5cq1m5$6vs@elna.ethz.ch> Reply-To: mark_bessey@next.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 129.18.3.62 David C. EKCHIAN writes > > Hi all, > > A question about the dynamic flag of the compiler. > OK, I compiled with that flag on > OpenStep 4.0, but now, with 4.1, I got new makefiles and -dynamic is no > more the default! What shall I do? Actually, the release notes could have been more clear on this point. The -dynamic flag is the default if none is specified. Therefore, it no longer needs to be passed on the command line (and didn't in 4.0, either). You don't need to do anything special, unless you want to create staticly-linked executables. > And what shall I do with that DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH? If you set the DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH environment variable, any programs that you load will attempt to find the frameworks they depend on in those directories first. This allows you to easily test a new version of a framework, while keeping the old version installed in it's usual place. You really ought to read the dyld man page. There's a pretty good description of this and a few other environment variables used by dyld there. Hope this helps, -Mark -- Mark Bessey Apple Computer, Inc. -->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!not-for-mail From: dwy@ace.net (David Young) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:29:51 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5dt26v$hkh$1@darla.visi.com> References: <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5drldj$d5k@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61391 comp.sys.next.programmer:22625 Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: : Okay.. here's another question, then. For the developer release of : Rhapsody slated for this summer, is it known yet whether the tools : released at that time will include CodeWarrior, or an interim release : of NeXT's ProjectBuilder until CodeWarrior is fully ported to : OpenStep? (Incidentally, I hope tools eventually are produced that : will migrate projects between CodeWarrior on Rhapsody and PB on : OPENSTEP..) Also, has Metrowerks decided to provide something like : InterfaceBuilder, or will that be provided by Apple? I'd been wondering a little about this too. I'd think that Apple could either sell what we know as OpenStep Developer to a friendly third party (ie, Metrowerks), or spin off another subsidiary corporation (ie, NeXT ;) in order to market them as a separate product. They kind of need a lot of attention and somehow I think Apple might neglect them in order to bolster third party developer tool support.. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.gate.net!navajo.gate.net!auchstet From: Robert Beeman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:27:44 -0500 Organization: CyberGate, Inc. Lines: 103 Message-ID: References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: clnt3.gate.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In-Reply-To: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22626 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61393 comp.sys.mac.system:199045 On 12 Feb 1997, John Rudd wrote: > In "Eric Stadtherr" wrote: > > Hold on to this perspective for a minute, and think about how things are > implimented in computers in general. Generally layers of the system are > implimented seperately, each layer abstracting some low level detail to make > impimenting the next higher level easier. At some level, in ANY file system, > the file system is literally just a collection of bytes on a disk. That's > true in HFS, UFS, FAT, etc. > > The reason the NeXT advocates are saying "Don't put more of this into the > file system than you absolutely have to" is because you're trying to put a > high level construct (who created those bits on the disk, and what format > they have) into a low level construct. You can impliment that high level > construct in MANY ways, and have it appear to the user the same no matter > where you actually have implimented that mechanism. > > For example, lets say you have a HFS file that is a tiff of a dog called "My > Dog". You created it in photoshop. As a user, you don't care where the > creator and format information are stored, as long as when you click on the > file, it pulls up the right application (presumably photoshop) and loads, and > you can edit the picture of your dog. HFS puts all of this into the file > itself, in the resource fork. > > However, lets say we modify Nextstep such that if you have a directory "My > Dog" that contains the file ".wrapper", then it is treated as a single file. > Inside .wrapper is all of the meta information on the file that you need > (creator, format, etc). When you, as a user, see that "My Dog", you see a > file. It may even look like a thumbnail of the actual picture, and if you > double click on it it fires up the right application. UFS hasn't stored any > of this information in the file system mechanisms. UFS doesn't know or even > care about this. UFS is a low level construct. > > The GUI, on the otherhand, does know where to find the information, does know > what to do with it, and does the right thing. The GUI is a high level > construct. If you were to take this high level construct and force it into a > low level implimentation, more likely than not you'd create problems and slow > the system down. You would also create inconsistancies and > incompatabilities, because you could only store these data items on systems > whose low level implimentation matched those resources. > > However, by using the UFS abstraction, any file system that supports 1) > directories/folders, and 2) file names that start with a . and continue on > for at least 7 more characters, can be used to store this information. Thus, > you care less about what your file server is. If you run a high-redundancy > file server with a dedicated OS, as long as it does NFS and supports 1 and 2, > you don't care how it stores the data on the disk. But if you imbed the > information in the file blocks themselves, you can't rely on simple NFS > implimentations. You have to build some sort of translator, which then > limits your choice of platforms to those that the translator have been ported > to. To share HFS files via non-Mac systems, you either need a specialized > NFS server, CAP, or a similiar piece of specialized software. To share a > wrapper, you can use any pre-canned NFS server, including dedicated NFS > systems like those from Auspex, HP, etc. > > Thus, you have completely ignored the concept of open systems... which is why > I bet Apple wont go down this road.. They are claiming to embrace open > systems now. > > Even though the other day I thought the inode was the best place to add this, > thinking about it more (thinking about what I wrote at the time more, even), > I think a wrapper is the best way to handle this. A wrapper which is > recognized, not by name, but by containing an identifying resource (like a > file ".wrapper"). The .wrapper file can contain any meta information you > need (perhaps in pairs like "creator = photoshop", "creator_version = x.y", > "file_type = tiff", "file_type_version = a.b", etc). > > > -- > John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd > =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ > Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design > C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. > > > Yup, sounds good to me, although I'm not an expert. It does lead me to two questions that maybe you can answer: 1. Instead of a nice single file with everything in it (executables, icons, tutorial, notes, etc) you now have a collection of files, some of which are invisible. Take Disinfectant 3.6, for example. You copy one file, its all there. If you use the .wrapper extra file, doesn't this all get lost if you FTP the file from somewhere else? I suppose you could come up with something like MacBinary to handle these invisible "support" files, but its still somewhat ugly, and you could end up with files missing icons, etc. Wouldn't it be better to embed this info into the first bytes of the file itself? I think this is how OpenDoc embeds creators, etc, and wouldn't using the OpenDoc methods be a better idea anyway? It certainly would give you the same "one file holds everything" that is so convenient. 2. How does MacOS really do the resource fork? When you write a DOS format floppy there is a directory titled "resources" on the disk. Does the MacOS hide resources in separate folders with reserved names (like the Trash and desktop stuff) or where is this stuff in the file system? I guess this really shows my ignorance!! Bob Beeman, Coral Springs, FL #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:40:44 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 57 Message-ID: <5dt2rc$j6$3@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5drldj$d5k@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61397 comp.sys.next.programmer:22627 In <5drldj$d5k@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Nathan M. Urban wrote: > In article , MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote: > > > In article <5dqv7m$34q@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: > > > >Here's something I've been wondering.. will CodeWarrior on Rhapsody be > > >able to build for OPENSTEP for Mach (any architecture, such as Intel, > > >NeXT, etc.), or for OPENSTEP/Enterprise (i.e., OpenStep on Windows NT). > > >Or will the only OpenStep platform it can build for be Rhapsody/PPC? > > > I don't know at this time. > > Okay.. here's another question, then. For the developer release of > Rhapsody slated for this summer, is it known yet whether the tools > released at that time will include CodeWarrior, or an interim release > of NeXT's ProjectBuilder until CodeWarrior is fully ported to > OpenStep? (Incidentally, I hope tools eventually are produced that > will migrate projects between CodeWarrior on Rhapsody and PB on > OPENSTEP..) Also, has Metrowerks decided to provide something like > InterfaceBuilder, or will that be provided by Apple? > > If it's still too early to tell, I understand.. > I'd actually like to know a lot more about the Apple/NeXT deal with Metrowerks. It sounds to me like it might be the death of IB and PB, which would REALLY suck. While I have heard good things about Metrowerks tools, I have never heard anyone say they offered the capabilities of Interface Builder. But, it doesn't really make sense for Apple to make this deal with Metrowerks if they're planning to ship a port of Openstep Developer for Rhapsody (or, rather, it doesn't make sense for Metrowerks to have jumped in there). The only way I can see that being "workable" is if IB and PB are shipped by Apple as "Objective-C only" development tools, and Metrowerks is "language independant" development tools (I seem to recall that being one of their strengths.. supporting several languages). Then your choice is the power of NeXT's tools vs the independance of Metrowerks tools. Another possability is that IB (which is really a necessary tool to any Nextstep development -- not literally so, but realistically) and PB will become seperate from the compiler choice. Apple could ship IB and PB in the base OS, without a compiler. Then Metrowerks would ship its compiler/debugger product, and both companies would be sure the two worked together. You use IB to build your .nib interface objects, PB (or metrowerks equivelant) to manage your project, and codwarrior to compile and debug. We'll have to see, though. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 1997 18:25:37 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 121 Message-ID: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: ericstad@netcom.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22628 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61398 comp.sys.mac.system:199059 In "Eric Stadtherr" wrote: > >> The Real solution, a serious update of the file system, seems > >> unthinkable to the unix community. > > > >The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the > >real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a > >high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to embed > >them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only with the > >organization and management of the raw bits into directories and > >files. The file system doesn't need to know the file types, but the > >`workspace' does. I think it's still an open question as to which > >system needs to be reconfigured to solve this. > > > > > > > The file system, by nature, should provide a means for the operating system > to store and retrieve files, and information about those files. The Unix > file system is based on the (perhaps outdated) notion that a file is a > collection of bytes. The nature of the collection of bytes, and the uses > to which it is put, are determined at a higher level by the application > programs that access the file system through the operating system. While > this blanket treatment of files has advantages in terms of portability and > cross-platform interoperability, it is limited in its usefulness in a > modern operating system. > > In a truly "modern" operating system, should the file system not be > "modern" as well? The knowledge that a filesystem will contain > heterogeneous types of files is instrumental in the design of a "modern" > filesystem. I believe Apple, when it created HFS, pulled the concept of a > filesystem from the '60s at least into the '80s. An HFS file, in addition > to having a name, location, size, and extent(s), also has a type, creator, > and other flags useful to the operating system that controls the file > system. This concept not only makes the filesystem better suited for > storage of modern files, but also allows the operating system to take > advantage of the additional file information. Constructs such as the > Desktop database, MacOS Easy Open, Drag-and-Drop application launching, > etc., would not be nearly as elegant or intuitive if not for the support of > the filesystem. > > HFS is not perfect. The allocation-block limitation should certainly be > addressed. However, the designers of the Rhapsody filesystem would be > making a mistake if they blind themselves to the intuitive knowledge that a > file has more than a name and size. > > Therefore, I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement about the role of > a filesystem. > I'm sorry for keeping all of this in the post, but I think I have to... Hold on to this perspective for a minute, and think about how things are implimented in computers in general. Generally layers of the system are implimented seperately, each layer abstracting some low level detail to make impimenting the next higher level easier. At some level, in ANY file system, the file system is literally just a collection of bytes on a disk. That's true in HFS, UFS, FAT, etc. The reason the NeXT advocates are saying "Don't put more of this into the file system than you absolutely have to" is because you're trying to put a high level construct (who created those bits on the disk, and what format they have) into a low level construct. You can impliment that high level construct in MANY ways, and have it appear to the user the same no matter where you actually have implimented that mechanism. For example, lets say you have a HFS file that is a tiff of a dog called "My Dog". You created it in photoshop. As a user, you don't care where the creator and format information are stored, as long as when you click on the file, it pulls up the right application (presumably photoshop) and loads, and you can edit the picture of your dog. HFS puts all of this into the file itself, in the resource fork. However, lets say we modify Nextstep such that if you have a directory "My Dog" that contains the file ".wrapper", then it is treated as a single file. Inside .wrapper is all of the meta information on the file that you need (creator, format, etc). When you, as a user, see that "My Dog", you see a file. It may even look like a thumbnail of the actual picture, and if you double click on it it fires up the right application. UFS hasn't stored any of this information in the file system mechanisms. UFS doesn't know or even care about this. UFS is a low level construct. The GUI, on the otherhand, does know where to find the information, does know what to do with it, and does the right thing. The GUI is a high level construct. If you were to take this high level construct and force it into a low level implimentation, more likely than not you'd create problems and slow the system down. You would also create inconsistancies and incompatabilities, because you could only store these data items on systems whose low level implimentation matched those resources. However, by using the UFS abstraction, any file system that supports 1) directories/folders, and 2) file names that start with a . and continue on for at least 7 more characters, can be used to store this information. Thus, you care less about what your file server is. If you run a high-redundancy file server with a dedicated OS, as long as it does NFS and supports 1 and 2, you don't care how it stores the data on the disk. But if you imbed the information in the file blocks themselves, you can't rely on simple NFS implimentations. You have to build some sort of translator, which then limits your choice of platforms to those that the translator have been ported to. To share HFS files via non-Mac systems, you either need a specialized NFS server, CAP, or a similiar piece of specialized software. To share a wrapper, you can use any pre-canned NFS server, including dedicated NFS systems like those from Auspex, HP, etc. Thus, you have completely ignored the concept of open systems... which is why I bet Apple wont go down this road.. They are claiming to embrace open systems now. Even though the other day I thought the inode was the best place to add this, thinking about it more (thinking about what I wrote at the time more, even), I think a wrapper is the best way to handle this. A wrapper which is recognized, not by name, but by containing an identifying resource (like a file ".wrapper"). The .wrapper file can contain any meta information you need (perhaps in pairs like "creator = photoshop", "creator_version = x.y", "file_type = tiff", "file_type_version = a.b", etc). -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Windows Native Controls through OpenStep ? Date: 12 Feb 1997 19:40:15 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 46 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5dt6av$nkg@news.next.com> References: <3326541822.31250673@cornut.fr> Reply-To: mark_bessey@next.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bananajr.next.com Roger Flattin writes > Hi, > > I have some questions about OpenStep for Windows NT, here is some of > them : > > 1. I'm wondering wheither the GUI objects in OpenStep NT windows are > native or not ? Not. > 2. Does OpenStep NT use Display Poscript to draw buttons, text fields or > does it use the native Windows objects ? OPENSTEP/NT uses DPS for everything except the window border and title bar. > 3. Can a window be drawn without a call to display postscript (a window > that contains only controls)? If you REALLY REALLY wanted to, you could probably do it using Windows API calls...But then you couldn't use the AppKit to interact with that window. > 4. How much memory resources does display postscript need ? > > I'm asking these questions because we are looking at OpenStep to develop > client/serveur application which doesn't make intensive use of graphics. > Some we have no direct need to use DPS. OK, now I understand. Unfortunately, OpenStep is largely an all-or-nothing kind of proposition. The AppKit is very dependent on DPS for all it's drawing. You could use just the Foundation layer, and do all the user interface with Windows API, but that would be almost as much work as not using OpenStep at all. I'd recommend using the whole OpenStep product to prototype your application, making sure that you have a clean break between application logic and user interface. Then, once it's running, determine whether DPS is really causing you any problems. Then if you have to, you can replace the DPS/Appkit front end with something a little lighter weight. -Mark -- Mark Bessey Apple Computer, Inc. -->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<-- #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!165.254.2.52!news.new-york.net!wlbr!llyene!cobra!urban From: urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Message-ID: <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> Sender: news@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:34:29 GMT Lines: 38 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22630 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61401 comp.sys.mac.system:199063 In article , Peter Moller wrote: >Stephen Peters writes: > >>The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the >>real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a >>high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to embed >>them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only with the >>organization and management of the raw bits into directories and > >Well, maybee you are right, but let us at least agree that an update of >the file system in which a time stamp for *when the file was created* >(to complement the three time stamps that exist in the Unix file system >describing when the file was last accesses, modified and referenced - >if memory serves me) is added would be needed?! And while we are at it >it would be very nice to have a file attribute saying if the file is in >use (busy) or not, right? The UFS has it's strengths, especially when >coupled with NFS over TCP/IP, but that does not mean it cannot be im- >proved. > Creation time information will be necessary for Mac programs, and would doubtless be helpful in some configuration management. It of course complicates Unix programs like "cp" that would need to explicitly duplicate the creation time, and operations like "cat a > b" could not preserve creation time information. "busy" information is not properly a function of the file header as it exists on disks, and complicates recovery in the event of a system crash. Out-of-band data associated with files (Finder information, resource fork, and perhaps other things) could be added in a general way to a Unix file system; for all I know, the NeXT folk may already have done this. It would certainly be a more general solution than the traditional Unix reliance on "magic numbers" and similar hackery. (two forks are theoretically sufficient; the second fork can point to another file with two forks, in a linked-list sort of way if multiple forks are desired). #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.4.124.3!cerberus.wsc.com!news!nwc From: nwc@ceto (Nick Christopher) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NSCoder..what does encodePropertyList: do? Date: 12 Feb 1997 21:16:15 GMT Organization: WSC Investment Services, Inc. Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ceto.wscis.wsc.com I need to be able to move achieves between OPENSTEP and GNUSTEP and so have written an NSCoder/NSArchiver/NSUnarchiver clone that allows this to happen. But - and its a big but...I am a little confused about encodePropertyList: and its decoding mirror. What are they there for? The docs are on these can not be used as specs. Anybody from NeXT/ApPPLE out there that might give a definitive answer? I read email (nwc@wsc.com) more than news so prefer answers that way. \n -- Nicholas Christopher nwc@wsc.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 12 Feb 1997 22:31:04 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5dtgb8$dh4@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22632 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61405 comp.sys.mac.system:199072 Stephen Peters (speters@cygnus.com) wrote: : macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: : > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem : > that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the : > registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. : And in what file's resource fork would you put, say, hardware : configuration information? I'm not quite sure what you mean by "hardware configuartion values." Do you mean size and number of disk drives, video cards, and stuff like that? That seems like the type of thing that is sensed at boot time and dynamically configured by the OS as disks are mounted or whatever. As for the concept of a centralized information registry, the closest the Mac comes is the Desktop File database(s). I don't like them much either, but at least if they get screwed up you can just trash them and they'll rebuild themselves. The seem to be a decent compromise between performance and functionality, consolidating all the information in each individual file's resource fork (as pertaining to file types, creators, and icon sets, in this case) into a central database to speed access. But without the information in the apps themselves, the ability to rebuild after a database corruption or whatever is gone. I think that's the main problem with the windows registry and I think it highlights the need for, if not separate file forks, then at least a standardized file *attribute* format (see: BeOS and it's spiffy mime-based file-typing and arbitrary key/value DB system built into its file system). -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!gail.ripco.com!news.tds.net!aumi5-a04.ccm.tds.net!user From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: [ANN] Making The Ultimate Development Platform Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 15:08:36 -0500 Organization: Metrowerks Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: aumi5-a04.ccm.tds.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61411 comp.sys.next.programmer:22633 HI, Just thought I'd point out that there is an interview in Apples online magazine Focus with Greg Galanos on the future plans of Metrowerks titled Making The Ultimate Development Platform http://www2.apple.com/home/thirddecade/ Ron -- METROWERKS Ron Liechty "Software at Work" MWRon@metrowerks.com http://www.metrowerks.com/about/people/rogues.html#mwron #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!seicom.de!flop.schwaben.de!news From: hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM (Holger Hoffstaette) Subject: Re: templates X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Sender: news@flop.schwaben.de Organization: NeXT Ghetto People feat. St.Eve Message-ID: References: <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> <5dqm0o$c1a@news.orst.edu> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: flop Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:39:39 GMT Lines: 39 C. David Shaffer wrote: > Hello, > > I've posted about this before. My station is running 3.3 (academic > bundle). My Workspace Manager reports: System Release 3.3, Workspace > Version 374.6. Now if I ask for my complier version I get: > > ernie> cc -v > Reading specs from /lib/m68k/specs > NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-437.2.6, gcc version 2.5.8 > > That's 2.5.8! In fact, the template example that was posted > previously compiles just fine on my machine. What gives? Not that I'm > complaining but it seems that at least some of the 3.3 academic > bundles shipped with gcc 2.5.8. On 4.1 it's still some transmogrified 2.5.8. I didn't really expect the posted example to compile, let alone work correctly (hey, we *are* talking about C++ here!), and needless to say I get punished for trying nevertheless: hhoff>cc++ -v Reading specs from /lib/i386/specs NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-478, gcc version 2.5.8 hhoff>cc++ test.C -lg++ hhoff>ll total 35 -rwxr-xr-x 1 hhoff other 34192 Feb 12 22:34 a.out* -rw-r--r-- 1 hhoff other 216 Feb 12 22:31 test.C hhoff>a.out Segmentation fault hhoff> Changing from a statically allocated object to one on the heap won't help either. Looks like typical C++ behaviour to me! :-> Holger #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 14:58:29 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 86 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22635 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61421 comp.sys.mac.system:199094 On 10 Feb 1997 11:47:13 -0800, Stephen Peters wrote: >peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: >> I'm also suspicious against hacks of all kinds; the File Manager on >> Solaris is, unfortunatley, a very good example of a very, very bad >> hack. In that case, it is an unsolvable situation: the poverty of >> the filesystem (in terms of file attributes), makes a hack the only >> usable solution. > >I agree that the Solaris filemgr application is a hack. I disagree >that it's the only usable solution. NeXT hasn't played with the file >system to get its information; instead, it's augmented the >higher-level `Workspace' to associate the file types with >applications. Still, it isn't that hard to add attributes to a file in a reasonable way w/i the Unix paradigm (though we'd need to doink around with the "copy" utility...). Now you've given me an opening- I'm old enough that I *love* an opportunity to pontificate. In a Unix filesystem there is an object called an I-Node; each unique file has one. Directories only contain names and inode numbers; Only the directory contains names, since there's little point to attaching a name to an inode directly (especially since several names can point to the same inode). I-Nodes are filesystem-wide and not constrained to a particular directory. An inode contains the timestamps of creation, modification and access, permissions and an array of block numbers where the file resides w/i the filesystem; There is no reason that one of those blocks can't be stolen and press-ganged into storing "overhead" information about a file; The only real limitation is how to get at the extended information block. See, for a "normal" utility (even for the Mac) this information is stored "out of band"; It's invisible to a utility program unless the program itself explicitly looks that information up. In Unix, read() and write() deal with in-band information and makes access to extended file information awkward. The stat() and fstat() calls are designed to look at specific information from the inode (but not all of it) and has the disadvantage of being "fixed format" (though we *can* cheat here). Another syscall used for out-of-band information is the ioctl() (I/O control) call; Normally applied to devices it can just as easily be applied to files... >> The Real solution, a serious update of the file system, seems >> unthinkable to the unix community. > >The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the >real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a >high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to embed >them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only with the >organization and management of the raw bits into directories and >files. The file system doesn't need to know the file types, but the >`workspace' does. I think it's still an open question as to which >system needs to be reconfigured to solve this. Actually, there is a good argument that such a "fork" mechanism can be useful, especially with an attempt to migrate towards a more "object oriented" filesystem. There are times when even I'd like to hide some information out- of-band to a file's contents yet still be able to get at it (Business BASICs, like Throroughbred's, must leave a special in-band header on a file, making it extremely difficult to access the file using "normal" Unix utilities). Linux's ext2 filesystem already has hooks for ACLs and the like; There's nothing precluding adding this feature as an experimental measure and exploring it's advantages, disadvantages and other side defects within a Unix-like environment. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 1997 16:35:59 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5dtd3v$pc2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22636 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61425 comp.sys.mac.system:199097 In article <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov>, urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban) wrote: > Out-of-band data associated with files (Finder information, resource > fork, and perhaps other things) could be added in a general way to > a Unix file system; for all I know, the NeXT folk may already have > done this. It would certainly be a more general solution than the > traditional Unix reliance on "magic numbers" and similar hackery. What NeXT needs to do is ressurect its object-oriented database filesystem project. Allows for the association of arbitrary attributes with files, or so I assume from what I remember hearing about it. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 1997 21:28:15 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5dtclf$35p$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: auchstet@gate.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22637 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61428 comp.sys.mac.system:199099 In Robert Beeman wrote: > > 1. Instead of a nice single file with everything in it (executables, > icons, tutorial, notes, etc) you now have a collection of files, some of > which are invisible. Take Disinfectant 3.6, for example. You copy one > file, its all there. If you use the .wrapper extra file, doesn't this all > get lost if you FTP the file from somewhere else? I suppose you could > come up with something like MacBinary to handle these invisible "support" > files, but its still somewhat ugly, and you could end up with files > missing icons, etc. Wouldn't it be better to embed this info into the > first bytes of the file itself? I think this is how OpenDoc embeds > creators, etc, and wouldn't using the OpenDoc methods be a better idea > anyway? It certainly would give you the same "one file holds everything" > that is so convenient. > NeXT did used to use something like this for its executables. Mach-o is a binary file format with multiple segments.. for icons, langauge resource, multiple executables (for various architectures), etc. But it was decided to switch to wrappers for more modularity, flexability, and such. It also turns out to be more portable. It does add an extra level of complexity for file transfers.. if you're creating something to distribute via FTP, you generally want to create a package, and then tar and compress/gzip that. But that's not really any worse than having to BinHex mac files. For copying files to a floppy or nfs volume, there's no overhead.. you drag the wrapper to the place you want it, and the GUI knows to copy not just the directory wrapper, but everything inside it. A Gui "Make an FTP volume" tool could easiliy be created.. or making a wrapper aware ftp server and client (probably the GUI tool would be better). > 2. How does MacOS really do the resource fork? When you write a DOS > format floppy there is a directory titled "resources" on the disk. Does > the MacOS hide resources in separate folders with reserved names (like the > Trash and desktop stuff) or where is this stuff in the file system? I > guess this really shows my ignorance!! > Your guess is pretty much accurate. At the point where we were using an NFS server for serving Appletalk volumes (via some add on software), it stored the data forks in one directory tree, and the resource forks in another. Probably the "resources" directory on the Dos disk was basically that.. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!hunter.premier.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.enteract.com!news.inetnebr.com!news.inetnebr.com!not-for-mail From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NSCoder..what does encodePropertyList: do? Date: 12 Feb 1997 16:36:12 -0600 Organization: Internet Nebraska Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5dtgks$j5r@falcon.inetnebr.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: falcon.inetnebr.com NNTP-Posting-User: bettis X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.1 #1 (NOV) nwc@ceto (Nick Christopher) writes: >I need to be able to move achieves between OPENSTEP and GNUSTEP and so have >written an NSCoder/NSArchiver/NSUnarchiver clone that allows this to happen. >But - and its a big but...I am a little confused about encodePropertyList: and >its decoding mirror. What are they there for? The docs are on these can not be >used as specs. -encodePropertyList encodes a property list, a property list is a graph of the following objects NSString, NSData, NSArray, and NSDictionary. encoding a property list does not preserve the mutablilty of the objects, just the structure. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!Radio-MSU.net!Gamma.RU!srcc!insync!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:10 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 108 Message-ID: <33026799.D07@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22639 comp.sys.mac.system:199111 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61435 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4061 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > > There has been an interesting discussion going on in comp.lang.eiffel > > which is relevant to why Apple should do much better in its efforts > > than just Unix. The basic problem with Unix and many other OSs is > > they do not notify the user of resource problems, such as disk full, > > file not found, memory short, etc, they just kill the program straight > > away. > > Under NEXTSTEP, when you start running low on disk space, the Workspace > will pop-up an alert panel warning you that disk space is low. When you > run critically low on space, you'll get another warning suggesting > rebooting in order to free up space by shrinking the swapfile. Rebooting!!! > Under any Unix, when a processes tries to open() a file, it can receive > any of about a dozen errors, including EACCESS (file not found, or bad > permissions). There are not fatal errors, and the OS does _not_ kill > the process when they occur. It's up to the process to implement > appropriate error handling upon receiving these errors. And this is wrong. An OS should handle many more of these common errors. > As for "memory short" condition, what precisely does this mean under an > OS which provides a good virtual memory implementation? Normally, there > are two problems which can occur: running low on disk space because of > swapfile size, or excessive paging due to a lack of physical memory. > > The former condition will cause malloc() to return NULL and set ENOMEM > (again, the OS does _not_ kill the process, and it's up to the process > to detect and respond to such a condition appropriately). The latter > condition represents a situation where the machines' physical resources > are inadequate for the workload being attempted, and Unix system pagers > will try to page and/or swap out processes to reduce the phsyical memory > frame requirements because they pay attention to the page fault > frequency rate (ie, they use a global PFF algorithm in association with > their page replacement algorithm). But in this case I expect the OS to alert the user to decide to close down certain processes. This decision is beyond the operating system to make, and it is certainly far beyond the scope of an application program. So what is the application program going to do because a malloc has failed due to environmental factors beyond its control? > > This leads to many applications having superfluous code to > > handle these exception conditions. This is very common code which > > really should be in the OS. > > Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' > when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS > should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These > two statements are mutually contradictory. How are they contradictory? I'm saying: don't kill my program, and don't hand me an exception before the OS has a good attempt at handling it itself. Only after this, hand me an exception so I can leave things in a consistent state. > How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying > the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors > occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting > the process decide for itself what should be done? Yes, because many of these things are so common. Why clutter applications just to make up for deficiencies in the OS? > [ ... ] > > (I think we should all run down to our Unisys A Series shop to > > learn how a real operating system works, they have been doing > > this for decades, and application development and system operations > > is far simpler). > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are > > Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are > > i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys > > | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Does anyone besides me detect a common bias between the last paragraph > and the .signature? Not at all, I am giving a concrete example of where what I am talking about is put into practice, with significant simplification in systems operations, and substantially reduced applications development effort. If I was really biased, I would not share these observations with Apple, would I? If Apple wants to adopt NeXT and Mach, then it had better be fully aware of the technical deficiencies of Unix, or Apple will lose its edge of superiority. > -Chuck > > Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer > ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- > I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!not-for-mail From: shimpei@ra.patnet.caltech.edu (Shimpei Yamashita) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 1997 14:53:53 -0800 Organization: Hummingbird Heaven Lines: 29 Message-ID: <5dthm1$30h@ra.patnet.caltech.edu> References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ra.patnet.caltech.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22640 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61436 comp.sys.mac.system:199117 In article , Robert Beeman wrote: >2. How does MacOS really do the resource fork? When you write a DOS >format floppy there is a directory titled "resources" on the disk. Does >the MacOS hide resources in separate folders with reserved names (like the >Trash and desktop stuff) or where is this stuff in the file system? I >guess this really shows my ignorance!! On the lowest level of abstraction, the two forks of a Mac file is stored as two separate files. (To convince yourself of this, make a tiny data file with and without a resource fork. The one without a resource fork will take up some minimal amount of space on the hard disk; the one with a resource fork will take up twice that, even though the amount of information in each is identical.) However, the two forks belong to the same file as far as application programmers are concerned. HFS doesn't allow you to move them around separately, AFAIK. The hack of putting the resource fork in some hidden directory is also used for AUFS (an emulation of HFS on top of Unix filesystem). That works just fine until you try to look at the files from the Unix side--then all sorts of things will break because file viewing and manipulation routines in Unix will only affect the data fork. I munged more than a few files this way before I learned by lesson. -- Shimpei Yamashita Caltech submillimeter astrophysics group shimpei@socrates.caltech.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 13 Feb 1997 01:04:37 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22641 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61439 comp.sys.mac.system:199128 Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: : John Siracusa wrote: : > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem : > that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the : > registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. : It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used : by multiple users. I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't vary from user to user. If you're talking about the type of thing that is stored in preference files on the Mac, then the logical solution is to have separate preference folders for each user. This doesn't really apply since, abilities aside, Rhaposdy will be targeted as a single-user system from what I have read. -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:18:22 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 21 Message-ID: <33025DCE.2A6D@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <33001949.2FD2@subsequent.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22642 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61441 comp.sys.mac.system:199135 John R. Campbell wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 02:01:29 -0500, "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: > >If Apple doesn't use resource forks, they probably won't use the > >Mac filesystem at all. They'd most likely use the current > >NeXT/bsd filesystem, which doesn't suffer from the blocksize problem. > > Let's assume a mangled Unix-like filesystem that allows for out-of- > band information to be stored in a special block w/i the inode. > Under normal circumstances this block won't be allocated on the > disk unless an application needs it, so the overhead isn't too > terrible. In order to get at the information we'd either need > to extend the stat() and fstat() calls or just do I/O to the block > via ioctl() (normally used for out-of-band management of devices). That might work, but once again, non-Apple filesystems would lack that information. NFS-mounted volumes from other Unix boxes would be devoid of this information. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:06:49 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 34 Message-ID: <33025B19.42A1@subsequent.com> References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dtclf$35p$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22643 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61442 comp.sys.mac.system:199136 John Rudd wrote: > > In Robert Beeman > wrote: > > > > 1. Instead of a nice single file with everything in it (executables, > > icons, tutorial, notes, etc) you now have a collection of files, some of > > which are invisible. Take Disinfectant 3.6, for example. You copy one > > file, its all there. If you use the .wrapper extra file, doesn't this all > > get lost if you FTP the file from somewhere else? I suppose you could > > come up with something like MacBinary to handle these invisible "support" > > files, but its still somewhat ugly, and you could end up with files > > missing icons, etc. Wouldn't it be better to embed this info into the > > first bytes of the file itself? I think this is how OpenDoc embeds > > creators, etc, and wouldn't using the OpenDoc methods be a better idea > > anyway? It certainly would give you the same "one file holds everything" > > that is so convenient. > A Gui "Make an FTP volume" tool could easiliy be created.. It's already there: File->Compress (For Mac users, the NeXT Workspace includes a Compress item in the File menu. Compress tar's and compresses the selected file. Or decompresses it, if the file's already compressed. Naturally, in that case, the menu item says 'Decompress'. The resulting file has a .compressed extension. The user doesn't need to go to the CLI and use tar and compress. It also handles .tar and .tar.Z files. A .compressed file is identical to a .tar.Z file.) -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 01:53:44 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5dts78$bot$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: macintsh@bu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22644 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61444 comp.sys.mac.system:199140 In <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: > Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: > : John Siracusa wrote: > : > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem > : > that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the > : > registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. > > : It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used > : by multiple users. > > I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't > vary from user to user. If you're talking about the type of thing > that is stored in preference files on the Mac, then the logical > solution is to have separate preference folders for each user. > > This doesn't really apply since, abilities aside, Rhaposdy will > be targeted as a single-user system from what I have read. It applies if they don't plan to _limit_ it to single user systems. Targeting isn't the same as saying "it wont be able to be used for applications other than this one". It simply means that is who they plan to focus on. Focusing on single user systems is all well and good, and rather appropriate to the mac market.. but again, Apple wants to come out of this with a system that scales to servers and such.. and it's not going to scale as well if they eliminate multi-user capabilities. On the otherhand, I don't see how that's relevant to Jonathan's point. The application creator is the application creator.. if that information is relevant to you, then you use that application. There is no need to overload this data. If you want the file type to determine the application you launch, instead of the creator, then the GUI should have a switch for choosing between the two. Then each user keeps a list of bindings for file types to applications. Multi-user systems aren't hindered by either of these being stored in the file (or the file wrapper, or the inode, or the resource fork). The reason this is a problem on a Mac isn't because it's stored in a central location.. it's because the Mac doesn't allow you to pick file type over file creator for its launching heuristic, and then give a seperate file-type <-> application binding for different "profiles" (even if its' just swapping a file at runtime). If it did allow this (even the crude run time swapping of the binding file), then it wouldn't be a problem. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!agate!news.Stanford.EDU!usenet From: stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Openstep: removing events from the queue Date: 13 Feb 1997 02:12:44 GMT Organization: Stanford University Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5dttas$1pk@nntp.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: nightowl.stanford.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) I have an event loop which follows the mouse as it's being dragged. The things I do there are quite expensive, esp. on NT. So I would like to get rid of all in-between dragged events to avoid lag. - (void)discardEventsMatchingMask:(unsigned int)mask beforeEvent:(NSEvent *)lastEvent; won't work because I don't know the very last event. The online docs say "NSAnyEvent till the mouseUp", but how am I gonna get the mouseUp NSEvent pointer if I don't know whether / where it is? So I built something like: while (ne = [_window nextEventMatchingMask:moveMask untilDate:[NSDate distantFuture] // [NSDate date] aint it either inMode:NSEventTrackingRunLoopMode dequeue:YES]) rLoc = [ne locationInWindow]; For some strange reason, this doesn't help. Can someone clue me in? Thanks - Stan --- Nature photography: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~stanj NeXTmail and MIME: stanj@cs.stanford.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 11 Feb 1997 15:51:01 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <33001949.2FD2@subsequent.com> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22646 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61449 comp.sys.mac.system:199149 On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 02:01:29 -0500, "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: >Dave Scocca wrote: >> >> In article <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com>, Alan Jenks wrote: >> >> \ It sounds like the NextOS already has a mechanism that could be enhanced >> \ to support the file type and creator concepts found on the Mac. I don't >> \ think the user will care that the implementation that supports this is >> \ multiple hidden files rather than a single file with a resource fork, as >> \ long as the user experience is the same. >> >> Under one condition--if we're using multiple hidden files, we MUST fix >> the large-block problem for large hard drives. Since a hard drive has >> 65536 allocation blocks, and no more, small files on large hard drive >> are large. Right now, a text file containing a single character >> consumes 32K of my (2.1 GB) hard drive. Sounds like MS-DOG's excuse for a filesystem to me. Using NeXT's NextStep you have a more Unix-like filesystem, so this is the logical starting point. Mind you, NeXT "fakes" the resource fork using hidden files; They apparently didn't want to modify the filesystem to allow for hidden information. A Unix-based file system (like Linux's ext2) can handle extremely large filesystems w/o having to boost the allocation granule size (sorry for using old MainFrame terminology, but I've been there); Most Unix filesystems still allocate 512byte blocks as the granule size. Even the Berkeley Fast File System resolves to these despite pre-allocating 4K per file and then allocating fragments when space starts getting tight. >> Under the current system, the data fork and the resource fork each >> require a minimum of one allocation block. If we break down the >> resource fork into a bunch of little hidden files, each of which >> requires a minimum of one allocation block, we'll be eating up hard >> drive space at an amazing rate. > >If Apple doesn't use resource forks, they probably won't use the >Mac filesystem at all. They'd most likely use the current >NeXT/bsd filesystem, which doesn't suffer from the blocksize problem. Let's assume a mangled Unix-like filesystem that allows for out-of- band information to be stored in a special block w/i the inode. Under normal circumstances this block won't be allocated on the disk unless an application needs it, so the overhead isn't too terrible. In order to get at the information we'd either need to extend the stat() and fstat() calls or just do I/O to the block via ioctl() (normally used for out-of-band management of devices). It ain't something that impossible, nor is it hard; It's merely a trick of a filesystem. I've been considering this issue and I see no reason I couldn't hack up a modification to Linux's ext2 filesystem to handle this... ...hmmm, this might make an interesting diversion... -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 97 17:08:23 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 104 Message-ID: References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-19-10.access.one.net In-reply-to: jrudd@cygnus.com's message of 12 Feb 1997 18:25:37 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22647 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61453 comp.sys.mac.system:199157 In article <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes: In "Eric Stadtherr" wrote: > The file system, by nature, should provide a means for the > operating system to store and retrieve files, and information > about those files. The Unix file system is based on the (perhaps > outdated) notion that a file is a collection of bytes. The > nature of the collection of bytes, and the uses to which it is > put, are determined at a higher level by the application programs > that access the file system through the operating system. <...> > I believe Apple, when it created HFS, pulled the concept of a > filesystem from the '60s at least into the '80s. An HFS file, in > addition to having a name, location, size, and extent(s), also > has a type, creator, and other flags useful to the operating > system that controls the file system. Actually, I would argue that with this information, Apple brought filesystems from the 60's to at most the 70's. Keep in mind the goals Unix had when it was young - don't build new abstractions for everything, instead try to find one abstraction which can fit most cases, with some adjustment at the boundaries. Thus we have things like sockets as a file descriptor, most everything as a device, and filesystems that turn files into bags of bytes. Hold on to this perspective for a minute, and think about how things are implimented in computers in general. Generally layers of the system are implimented seperately, each layer abstracting some low level detail to make impimenting the next higher level easier. At some level, in ANY file system, the file system is literally just a collection of bytes on a disk. That's true in HFS, UFS, FAT, etc. The reason the NeXT advocates are saying "Don't put more of this into the file system than you absolutely have to" is because you're trying to put a high level construct (who created those bits on the disk, and what format they have) into a low level construct. There is a _very_ good reason why you want to do this, one that I didn't see John mention in his post. Remember that we're no longer dealing with a glorified application launcher plus some system libraries, here. The filesystem code is either in the kernel (Unix, macrokernel Mach), or ever so slightly outside the kernel (microkernel Mach). [Honestly, the two only differ for people who like to hack on the kernel :-).] A filesystem as a bag of bytes is fundamentally easier to write and debug than a filesystem which maintains arbitrary amounts of auxiliary information. Keep in mind that each additional piece of info you stuff into the inode makes _everything_ that much slower. Right now, each block of inodes contains some number of inodes, call it N. If we make the inode twice as big, then each read only gets half as many inodes. This makes all of your directory traversal code slower, because it's waiting on the disk, and all of your inode maintenance code is likely slower, because you can't cache as many inodes in a given space (be it a disk block cache or a CPU cache). This affects _all_ files, even those which don't give a rat's ass about a file's creator, and it affects anything which "looks" at the file, including just listing the directory the file is in. Consider things like Unix pipes and devices. Under Unix, device access is mostly the same across devices (though each obviously works differently). You direct output to the console as easily as you direct output to a file as easily as you direct output to a network socket as easily as you direct output to a raw disk drive as easily as you direct one command's output to another's input. Devices, named pipes, redirected files, directories, executables, none of these need CREATOR or anything of the sort. All will pay the excise tax if it's added, though. Then there's the maintenance concern. What happens if you store various info in the inode, creator and whatnot, and ... the info you need changes? Nobody uses the "Last time a newline was written" flag, or it turns out that your "creator" indicator isn't big enough to handle all of the potential creator apps. [Perhaps someone wants to say "FuzzBall version 1.2" versus "FuzzBall version 2.1".] Or you need an entirely new bit of info which the current scheme doesn't provide. The _only_ thing I could see adding to the FFS filesystem to enhance support for additional info for files would be a single bit in the permissions for that file or directory. This bit would have no effect on anything, it would just be an advisory bit saying "I'm a document or document wrapper". This would allow the file viewer or finder to make certain assumptions about the file, such as how to display it and where to find certain information (within the file itself, or in a special file in the wrapper). Specifically, it lets you display a file as an application wrapper without requiring a registered extension. OTOH, if you just defined wrapperName/.FinderInfo as The Place To Put Finder Information, even that bit wouldn't be necessary. If the file is empty, display it as a document without any special handling. Otherwise the contents of the file might describe the creator application, the author of the file, what icon to use for the file, whether to verify before deleting, whether the file is password protected, etc, etc. And anything the application puts in which the finder doesn't understand is ignored, which could reasonably allow finder upgrades. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 00:06:27 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 70 Message-ID: <5dtlu3$93o$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <33001949.2FD2@subsequent.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22648 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61460 comp.sys.mac.system:199172 In John R. Campbell wrote: > > > >If Apple doesn't use resource forks, they probably won't use the > >Mac filesystem at all. They'd most likely use the current > >NeXT/bsd filesystem, which doesn't suffer from the blocksize problem. > > Let's assume a mangled Unix-like filesystem that allows for out-of- > band information to be stored in a special block w/i the inode. > Under normal circumstances this block won't be allocated on the > disk unless an application needs it, so the overhead isn't too > terrible. In order to get at the information we'd either need > to extend the stat() and fstat() calls or just do I/O to the block > via ioctl() (normally used for out-of-band management of devices). > > It ain't something that impossible, nor is it hard; It's merely > a trick of a filesystem. I've been considering this issue and I > see no reason I couldn't hack up a modification to Linux's ext2 > filesystem to handle this... > > ...hmmm, this might make an interesting diversion... > > First, before I say this, I want to say I think it would be MUCH better to go with the wrapper solution.. in the same way Mach-o is an improvement over a HFS solution (N forks vs 2 forks), and Wrappers are an improvement over Mach-o (N forks + heirarchy vs N forks) for executables, I think the same will be true for wrappers as data files. However, I went and looked at the Inode structures to see if there is an unused field that can be used for storing creator information (storing type information isn't something I think you can do in the current inode.. you could store an integer that referenced a list of types, but then you can only have files be of a "blessed" type to take advantage of that.. that's too limiting, in my opinion -- so you'd probably need to stick with keeping the file type information in the file name). There are 4 "reserved for future use" long's in the inode structure (inode.i_ic.ic_spare[4]) which could be used to store a) a device (a short), and b) an inode (a u_long) for the creator's location, and c) the time_t (long) of the file's last access by that creator at that inode. You'd probably also want to use the spare c time (inode.i_ic.ic_ctspare) for the "create time" of any arbitrary file. Then, when you access the file to find its creator, you a) check the create time of your file, find the device and inode of its creator and see if the file at THAT inode was created more recently than item C above. If the creator inode is more recent, then the creator file is no longer valid (it was destroyed since you last accessed this file from that creator). Otherwise, that file is the creator. There are some limits here... in file transfer via things like ftp and such, you WILL lose this data. It is non-portable to non-Rhapsody machines (it can be stored there via NFS, but the other machine wont use it, and it may get corrupted by the other machine(s), esp if they use this "reserved for future use" field for something else). However it doesn't create a seperate pool of information (the "pointer to a block" method would also be lost.. in transfer, btw), it doesn't have things spread across multipe files even at the lowest file level. It's just a simple "here's my creator" tag. It's also a bit of a hack.. not very elegant nor extensible. But it would probably work. I just don't think we want to be implimenting these things via hacks. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!visi.com!not-for-mail From: David Young Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 13 Feb 1997 04:46:57 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970123] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22649 comp.sys.mac.system:199178 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61462 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4063 In comp.sys.next.programmer Ian Joyner wrote: : Yes, because many of these things are so common. Why clutter : applications : just to make up for deficiencies in the OS? "Out of memory" is not something an OS can dictate an action for to an application. Trust me, when a UNIX box says out of memory, it's tried absolutely everything it can. : If Apple wants to adopt NeXT and Mach, then it had better be fully : aware of the technical deficiencies of Unix, or Apple will lose its : edge of superiority. Are you *insane*? Apple's current OS has the *worst* memory management architecture of ANY operating system since the advent of the MMU. Period. Whereas UNIX (and Mach) have one of the best. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!ais.net!cdc2.cdc.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.indiana.edu!glhansen From: glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (Gregory Loren Hansen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 13 Feb 1997 05:01:30 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5du77a$ean@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: copper.ucs.indiana.edu NNTP-Posting-User: glhansen Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22650 comp.sys.mac.system:199182 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61464 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4064 In article <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young wrote: >In comp.sys.next.programmer Ian Joyner wrote: >: Yes, because many of these things are so common. Why clutter >: applications >: just to make up for deficiencies in the OS? > >"Out of memory" is not something an OS can dictate an action for to an >application. Trust me, when a UNIX box says out of memory, it's tried >absolutely everything it can. And the response could be anything from "Out of memory: can't open file" to "Not enough memory for that operation. Try something smaller." to just opening up a smaller drawing area or sending a "Connection refused" error down the network without ever putting up a dialog box, or maybe limiting the quality of sound output in a game. Maybe even a "Calculation halted: out of memory. Try quitting some applications, then click 'RESUME' to continue." The operating system just doesn't know what you want to do with that out of memory error. And only you can decide which path the program should take, rather than charging ahead assuming you have the memory. And if you do charge ahead? If you try to store data through a null pointer, then the program is just plain broken and nothing the operating system can do will fix it. At that point the program can't even continue to run. -- "Good things come in small packages. But big things can't, unless they're inflatable or require some assembly." - The Tick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!uunet!in1.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 97 09:11:28 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 36 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22651 comp.sys.mac.system:199204 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61470 Charles William Swiger writes: >Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the >timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file when >you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified version. >Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care about that >timestamp? Easily; quite often I try to figure out which version of a file or a program is the oldest and the created time stamp is very handy in those situations. I admit that this is often a problem when I move files around nad/or have the "same" file on several places: my hard disk at work, my file server at work, a floppy on the way home or my hard disk at home; but there are other instances. When I have a small utility program that doesn't have proper version information and I am to determine which of two versions is the oldest. I see no reason not to have a created time stamp. I have cursed the unix file system more than once for not having such a time stamp. >Maybe. Currently, many systems keep track of busy files by maintaining >state in the kernel, and various locking mechanisms like lockf(), >flock(), etc exist. These provide semantics for doing things like >shared and exclusive locks, or for locking sections of files instead of >locking the entire thing. Well, maybee there are solutions for this in the unix world, but then I must have stumbled on the bad implementations of them. An easy example is the mailtool in OpenWindows. It's not working as desired. I don't say that a simple flag would do the trick in a multi user environment (I think we need something more sophisticated here and maybee that system should be layered on top of the file system), but I believe it would be a step in the right direction. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 01:05:18 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22652 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61471 comp.sys.mac.system:199206 John 'kzin' Rudd writes: > It may seem pendantic to point out the difference between "creator" and > what you're talking about, but it is semantically different. The > creator of a file is the creator of the file no matter whether you like > to use that application or not. If "creator" is going to be recorded, > then it really is an attribute of the file itself, and should somehow be > stored with it. Which begs the question to a die-hard Unix user like myself, if you add the notion of a `preferred application', what use is the `creator' designation other than bookkeeping? As a fallback to a known good application? Ditto on the various discussions on adding the `time created' field to augment the last modified and other time codes stored with the file. For me, once I start caring about the time the file was first created, I start caring about all the changes that were made, which seems to scream `revision control system' to me. (And if you copy a file from somewhere else, should it inherit the source file's created time?) Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Can someone help enlighten me? > However, each user should have the option to substitute some other app, > in case they don't want to use the actual applications creator.. and > that list of preferences would probably be best called "Prefered > applications" or something.. which would read something like: > > I prefer Painter for Photoshop apps. > Which would probably be mapped like "Photoshop.app -> Painter.app", > and thus when you launched a file created by Photoshop, it would > bring up Painter. :-} Ick. I really don't like this on an application basis. One person may normally look at JPEGs under Netscape, whereas I have some neat image utility like OmniImage that I use. That doesn't mean I want to set up OmniImage as a replacement for Netscape in all circumstances. -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 23:58:01 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 76 Message-ID: <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22653 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61476 comp.sys.mac.system:199210 John Siracusa wrote: > > Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: > : John Siracusa wrote: > : > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem > : > that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the > : > registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. > > : It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used > : by multiple users. > > I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't > vary from user to user. Sure it does. If I use Photoshop to edit a tiff, it'll get a Photoshop creator code, correct? If my coworker Bob prefers to work in Painter, he won't be able to double-click files that I've opened and have them open in Painter. After he saves them, I won't be able to open them in Photoshop by double-clicking. This is a pain. Yes, you can open by drag n drop, and yes you can open from the open panel. But, consider the situation where I want to open several files at once from the Finder. Bob's edited some of them. I select the files, and open them all at once. Photoshop is opened, as is Painter. Potentially, there could be as many creator codes as there are files, and I could end up with half a dozen applications running, just by opening files in the finder. This is a pain. If I prefer to edit tiffs in Painter, that should be the application that is used when I double-click. I should only be forced to use other methods in the exceptional case - when I want to use the other application. In the typical case, I should not have to go out of my way. Under *no circumstances*, should *I* be forced to take extra steps because of *someone else's* application usage preferences. An operating system which makes me do this is broken. I'm not crazy about the idea of creator codes, but if they must be there, each user has to have their own. Let the user decide which apps to use, not their coworkers. > If you're talking about the type of thing > that is stored in preference files on the Mac, then the logical > solution is to have separate preference folders for each user. > This doesn't really apply since, abilities aside, Rhaposdy will > be targeted as a single-user system from what I have read. I've read nothing of the sort. If Rhapsody is single-user, it'll never make much headway in the enterprise. A Windows95 class single-user operating system won't do. It certainly won't be any kind of draw for corporate customers. Apple will get laughed off Nasdaq if they try that. Apple needs an NT-class product, and they know that. Crippling it as a Win95-style singleuser OS makes little sense. It would gain Apple nothing. It would simply be an extension of the status quo - the 1980's model of computing. Not exactly something to be proud of. There really is no compelling reason to sell a single user system these days. Multiuser systems aren't exactly difficult to use. Hell, AOL is a multiuser system, and non-technical people don't seem to have any real trouble using *it*. Username/password isn't beyond anyone's comprehension, and would probably seem downright sensible to most people these days. Multiuser OS's offer advantages that even dimwit consumers could understand. Privacy. Virus resistance. Better user-specific configuration. Etc. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:20:24 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 20 Message-ID: <199702130020245167110@roxboro-185.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FE72F6.4C96@subsequent.com> <5dm74q$906@News.Dal.Ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-185.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22654 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61478 comp.sys.mac.system:199211 John Christie wrote: ] Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: ] : Doc O'Leary wrote: ] ] : But what if you want to name two files the same? It's not uncommon ] : for me to have two files in the same directory with the same name ] : but different extensions. For instance, splash.riff and splash.bmp. ] ] Those aren't the same name. Why would one ever want to use ] EXACTLY the same name for two files on purpose. I hope no one ever ] comes up with a file system that allows that. I'd hate to have to ] follow some of the programmers I've seen in a project on such a file ] system. As you say it's a silly argument and just BEGS the question of what do you do "if you want to name two files the same" including the extension? -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 01:01:19 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5dtp4v$aqt$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dtclf$35p$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <33025B19.42A1@subsequent.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: jon@subsequent.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22655 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61480 comp.sys.mac.system:199219 In <33025B19.42A1@subsequent.com> "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: > John Rudd wrote: > > A Gui "Make an FTP volume" tool could easiliy be created.. > > It's already there: > > File->Compress > er.. Duh.. I knew that. :-) -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!status.gen.nz!news.express.co.nz!actrix.gen.nz!hoult!Bruce Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Message-ID: <2938717302@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> From: Bruce@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 22:21:42 +1300 References: <5dtd3v$pc2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Lines: 24 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22656 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61481 comp.sys.mac.system:199220 nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) writes: > In article <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov>, urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban) wrote: > > > Out-of-band data associated with files (Finder information, resource > > fork, and perhaps other things) could be added in a general way to > > a Unix file system; for all I know, the NeXT folk may already have > > done this. It would certainly be a more general solution than the > > traditional Unix reliance on "magic numbers" and similar hackery. > > What NeXT needs to do is ressurect its object-oriented database > filesystem project. Allows for the association of arbitrary attributes > with files, or so I assume from what I remember hearing about it. It might pay to look at the work done for the OS/2 file system. Each file has the ability to have out-of-band "extended attributes" (I think that's what they call them) of arbitrary number and size. It's all rather like a Mac resource fork, but I think a bit more general. -- Bruce -- ...in 1996, software marketers wore out a record 31,296 copies of Roget's Thesaurus searching for synonyms to the word "coffee" ... #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.109.159.3!news.gtn.com!gtnduss1.du.gtn.com!news.knipp.de!not-for-mail From: anch@logiball.de (Andreas Christiani) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Openstep and multithreads Date: 12 Feb 1997 12:54:49 GMT Organization: Knipp Medien und Kommunikation, Dortmund, Germany Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5dseip$jo2$2@news.knipp.de> References: <330009F0.367@okstate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: odin.logiball.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Bill Keller wrote: >I'm trying to find some source examples of multithreaded code for >Openstep. Or, more specifically, of using NSPort to communicate between >threads. I've scoured next-ftp.peak.org, and there's just not much >there for openstep yet. Any pointers or examples would be very helpful. > >Thanks! > >Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu) From the docs of NSPort : "An NSPort represents a communication channel to or from another NSPort, which typically resides in different thread or task. The distributed objects system uses NSPort objects to send NSPortMessages back and forth. You should implement interapplication communication using distributed objects whenever possible, and use NSPorts only when necessary." Is it necessary ? If not, using DO is very simple and it's documented quite good. There's also an example in /NextDeveloper/Examples/Foundation/MultiThreadedDO. Bye, A.C. --- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ LogiBall gGmbH * Innovationszentrum Herne * Westring 303 * 44629 Herne Andreas Christiani * christiani@logiball.de * http://www.logiball.de Tel.: 02323 / 925 577 * Fax : 02323 / 925 551 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: John 'kzin' Rudd Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 06:28:11 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Inc. Lines: 56 Message-ID: <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-mv-04.cygnus.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22658 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61487 comp.sys.mac.system:199232 Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > John Siracusa wrote: > > > > Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: > > : John Siracusa wrote: > > : > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem > > : > that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the > > : > registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. > > > > : It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used > > : by multiple users. > > > > I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't > > vary from user to user. > > Sure it does. If I use Photoshop to edit a tiff, it'll > get a Photoshop creator code, correct? If my coworker > Bob prefers to work in Painter, he won't be able to > double-click files that I've opened and have them open > in Painter. After he saves them, I won't be able to > open them in Photoshop by double-clicking. > > This is a pain. Yes, you can open by drag n drop, > and yes you can open from the open panel. > except that what you're talking about is NOT "creator" information. It's more appropriately called "prefered application" or something like that. If the app somehow tracks the creator and file type (via any of the suggested mechanisms), it's trivial for the GUI to look at the creator, check to see if you have a "if app A is the creator, launch app B instead" entry in some preferences, and launch that instead. Or, have to GUI launch an app you have associated with the file type instead of an app you have substituted for the creator. However, in either case, storing and associating the document creator with/with-in the file itself has absolutely no affect on multiuser environments. It may seem pendantic to point out the difference between "creator" and what you're talking about, but it is semantically different. The creator of a file is the creator of the file no matter whether you like to use that application or not. If "creator" is going to be recorded, then it really is an attribute of the file itself, and should somehow be stored with it. However, each user should have the option to substitute some other app, in case they don't want to use the actual applications creator.. and that list of preferences would probably be best called "Prefered applications" or something.. which would read something like: I prefer Painter for Photoshop apps. Which would probably be mapped like "Photoshop.app -> Painter.app", and thus when you launched a file created by Photoshop, it would bring up Painter. :-} #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!news.RoBIN.de!zoodle.RoBIN.de!uli From: uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 12 Feb 1997 22:29:06 GMT Organization: meow!!! (private site) Lines: 92 Message-ID: <5dtg7i$29a@zoodle.robin.de> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.robin.de In-Reply-To: <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00081 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22659 comp.sys.mac.system:199252 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4066 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61488 On 02/12/97, Ian Joyner wrote: >There has been an interesting discussion going on in comp.lang.eiffel >which is relevant to why Apple should do much better in its efforts >than just Unix. The basic problem with Unix and many other OSs is >they do not notify the user of resource problems, such as disk full, >file not found, memory short, etc, they just kill the program straight >away. This leads to many applications having superfluous code to >handle these exception conditions. This is very common code which >really should be in the OS. Ok. Let's see how OPENSTEP handles these: - disk full: back in the days when I still had a small hard disk in my NeXTstation was the last time I had this particular problem. And behold, the system *did* inform me when the disk space began running short. Something like a message box saying "Alert, only 5 Megabytes left on device" or somesuch. Perfectly ok, except for the fact that I was in severe need of disk space back then ;-) - memory short: under normal circumstances this only happens if you run out of disk (i.e. swap) space. So it's the same as above. (Remember, we've got virtual memory in a swap file residing in the normal file system, the swap file grows (and sometimes - only sometimes though :-/ - also shrinks with usage, therefore out of memory ~= out of disk space) the non-normal circumstances would be an application (or the OS itself) that uses up all available virtual address space. That's at least close to two Gigabytes of virtual memory, allocated but - mostly - unused, per single task. I've had such a situation once with OmniWeb, showing up in the process status list as using the incredible amount of 1.99 Gigabytes of virtual memory. I checked this out when OmniWeb wasn't working properly and my disk began working hard. By the way: the rest of the system still worked perfectly, including quite good response times. Maybe (anyone in the know?) OmniWeb was doing some process-local garbage collection, for after about 20 minutes of swapping it continued to work normally. (This happened after several hours of watching pictures on the net with OmniWeb, and the swapfile was "just" about 100-200 MB, plus 96MB of real RAM.) - file not found: There's just no way to open a nonexistant file. You - obviously - can't doubleclick on it, or drag it to the application, and if you use the open panel, entering a filename that doesn't exist just causes the OK button not to function - you're still in the open panel. Of course you might not be allowed to open a file - and then you'll get the appropriate message. Similar things exist for other variations of file-system-doesn't-want-to- let-you-do-what-you-just-wanted-to-do situations. As - I hope - in any other user interface, even the so unpopular unix CLI based stuff. Generally, as described above, some of the functionality (disk-is-going-to-be-full-soon, open panel etc.) indeed *is* in the OS level. That is, at least in some shared library noone needs to take care of programming. Other stuff just can't be realized by the operating system except by telling the application (which may very well be a command line utility here) that something went wrong. If it just informs the user, but not the application, the application might do something stupid. Imagine, you want to quit an application. It tells you that there are unsaved files. You say ok, save them. The OS tells *you* (but not the app) that the disk is full, write protected or whatever else. So the app thinks the files are saved and quits. Without saving (to another disk, whatever). Unix doesn't kill applications. Applications kill themselves. Or the user does by manually killing them (GUI based of course). By the way, how do you kill a misbehaving application on MacOS? One that refuses to work? Reboot? Well... [stuff from the eiffel newsgroup deleted] Well, I still don't think this would really be useful. Normally, files needed for a system (be it the OS itself, an application, the network drivers, whatever) should be there. I think it's totally valid for the system to not function if something is ripped apart. It should of course gracefully tell you what's wrong, but it shouldn't basically pause the application until you do indeed find the file somewhere else. That's appropriate behaviour for MVS mainframes with a huge manually operated tape library, where disk storage in earlier times couldn't hold even moderately sized user files. I've never liked this behaviour all that much. In those environments you have long running jobs, needing several tapes mounted one after another. Obviously the system (which in these cases basically also handle the file I/O itself) has to prompt you to mount the next tape. And obviously, it should tell you "wrong tape, use the other one", and obviously you have to be able to respond with either "here it is", or "sorry, the cat ate it, you must die!". But that's a quite different world compared to most desktop/client/server kind of applications running today. And in those - quite rare - cases where it's still appropriate (an archive or backup tool using more than one tape or disk) this will better be handled by the application itself. But the application might be the OS itself as well, spitting out the current disk and prompting you to insert the one called "stupidlabel" if your application accesses the file "/stupidlabel/afile.txt" just after "/firstdisk/anotherfile.txt". This does work. Today. GUI-based. Even if you select the files from a shell window. Bye, Uli #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!news.RoBIN.de!zoodle.RoBIN.de!uli From: uli@zoodle.robin.de (Ulrich Grepel) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 12 Feb 1997 22:45:47 GMT Organization: meow!!! (private site) Lines: 98 Message-ID: <5dth6r$2c3@zoodle.robin.de> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rocket.robin.de In-Reply-To: <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00081 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22660 comp.sys.mac.system:199253 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61489 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4067 On 02/12/97, Charles William Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & >Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >> This leads to many applications having superfluous code to >> handle these exception conditions. This is very common code which >> really should be in the OS. > >Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' >when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS >should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These >two statements are mutually contradictory. > >How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying >the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors >occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting >the process decide for itself what should be done? Yes, exactly. The rest is more Re: Ian Joyner's posting If you've got a situation where an operator is able to provide the right tape containing the wanted file, then this is not really an error condition at all. It's just the operating system stalling the application and checking whether the user can do something to help. I don't know anything about Unisys systems, but I do know a bit about MVS and VSE. Basically, if you cannot provide the tape needed by your batch programs, most of the times the only useful option is to kill the job. Manually. Most JCLs or batch programs I've seen do not provide appropriate error checking. Imagine an MVS or VSE job for sending an email. The jcl tries to locate the equivalent of a .signature file. You don't have one, and don't want to create one. Now what could the OS do? Ask the user for the file? Well... I don't want a .signature file. Kill the job? Well... a .sig is not vitally important for an email message. Tell the application? See, that's what most OSes do in such circumstances. And don't tell me that having the following code is better than the code following the following code: --------8<-------- if (file-is-accessible) read-file else message("file not found") -------->8-------- read-file if (error) message("file not found") --------8<-------- Actually, the opposite is true. In the first example (which is what you - or rather the eiffel guys - wanted to use) no care is taken of the fact that between checking the accessability of the file and the file access itself there's nothing happening to the file - in another thread or process, on another CPU or even computer (making it "another process" - namely the NFS daemon or equivalent). So the first code example would even have to look like --------8<-------- lock-file if (file-is-accessible) read-file else message("file not found") unlock-file -------->8-------- And that doesn't include the possibility of lock/unlock going wrong. >> (I think we should all run down to our Unisys A Series shop to >> learn how a real operating system works, they have been doing >> this for decades, and application development and system operations >> is far simpler). >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are >> Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are >> i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys >> | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Does anyone besides me detect a common bias between the last paragraph >and the .signature? ;-) Well, seems like it should be "...we have been doing..." A colleague of mine also calls all non-mainframe operating systems "Nintendo systems". And I don't think app development and system operations is much easier on old style mainframe systems. At least not if you want to provide the same comfort for the user. Most modern systems cope *without* a system operator. They *only* have a user. That includes PCs, Macs and even NeXT boxes. It might include quite a few other Unix boxes as well. But administrating a mainframe is a full time job. Most of the times for more than one person. Bye, Uli #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 13 Feb 1997 07:55:46 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 18 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5duhe2$49a$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> Charles William Swiger writes: [...] > Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' > when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS > should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These > two statements are mutually contradictory. > > How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying > the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors > occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting > the process decide for itself what should be done? Well, the OS should open an on-line connection to the nearest computer retailer, order more DRAM and put the process to sleep until the memory has been made availabel. :-) Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 07:19:47 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 135 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <33026799.D07@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:199258 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61490 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4068 comp.sys.next.programmer:22662 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >> Under NEXTSTEP, when you start running low on disk space, the Workspace >> will pop-up an alert panel warning you that disk space is low. When you >> run critically low on space, you'll get another warning suggesting >> rebooting in order to free up space by shrinking the swapfile. > > Rebooting!!! That's what I said, yes. In general, this only happens when someone's system was very low on disk space to start with. If you make sure that you've got 100 MB free where you swap to, you're not going to have problems. >> Under any Unix, when a processes tries to open() a file, it can receive >> any of about a dozen errors, including EACCESS (file not found, or bad >> permissions). There are not fatal errors, and the OS does _not_ kill >> the process when they occur. It's up to the process to implement >> appropriate error handling upon receiving these errors. > > And this is wrong. An OS should handle many more of these common errors. Handle how? Specificly what should the OS do when open() fails instead of returning EACCESS? >> As for "memory short" condition, what precisely does this mean under an >> OS which provides a good virtual memory implementation? Normally, there >> are two problems which can occur: running low on disk space because of >> swapfile size, or excessive paging due to a lack of physical memory. >> >> The former condition will cause malloc() to return NULL and set ENOMEM >> (again, the OS does _not_ kill the process, and it's up to the process >> to detect and respond to such a condition appropriately). [ ... ] > > But in this case I expect the OS to alert the user to decide to close > down certain processes. This decision is beyond the operating system > to make, and it is certainly far beyond the scope of an application > program. So what is the application program going to do because a > malloc has failed due to environmental factors beyond its control? I assume you're just talking about the first case, where malloc() fails. Polite applications warn the user that they couldn't get the memory they needed, and they abort the operation being attempted, and return to their main event loop. Furthermore, under NEXTSTEP, running out of swapspace (which is what causes malloc() to fail) will usually cause the WorkSpace to provide a "disk space low" warning, as I described above. What else do you want the OS to do? >> Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' >> when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS >> should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These >> two statements are mutually contradictory. > > How are they contradictory? I'm saying: don't kill my program, and don't > hand me an exception before the OS has a good attempt at handling it > itself. Killing the process is bad, agreed (although if you're deadlocked, you've basicly got no good alternatives)-- it's a poor general solution to an exceptional condition. In general, the OS shouldn't do anything when confronting an exception that's not appropriate for all processes. The OS should report exceptions and let the process decide what should be done, instead of having the OS spend time and resources attempting to handle the exception itself. You've acknowledged that the OS should not perform inappropriate actions when encountering an exception since you gave the specific example of killing processes, but you don't appear to realize that your suggestions that the OS perform some other action beyond reporting the exceptional condition means that the OS will do things which are inappropriate for some tasks-- thus, the contradiction. >> How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying >> the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors >> occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting >> the process decide for itself what should be done? > > Yes, because many of these things are so common. Why clutter > applications just to make up for deficiencies in the OS? You're dodging the question. It's remarkably easy to claim that the OS is deficient, but it's much harder to define alternative behavior that the OS should perform that's generally useful for all processes. >> [ ... ] >>> (I think we should all run down to our Unisys A Series shop to >>> learn how a real operating system works, they have been doing >>> this for decades, and application development and system operations >>> is far simpler). >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are >>> Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are >>> i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys >>> | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Does anyone besides me detect a common bias between the last paragraph >> and the .signature? > > Not at all, I am giving a concrete example of where what I am talking > about is put into practice, with significant simplification in > systems operations, and substantially reduced applications development > effort. If I was really biased, I would not share these observations > with Apple, would I? The two aaren't mutually exclusive by any means. Right now, we've got someone from Unisys who is extolling the virtues of Unisys as "a real OS", and slamming other operating systems as "technically deficient". If you could substantiate the claims you've made, I'll happily withdraw my claim of bias. However, so far I've seen absolutely nothing of the sort-- you've made claims that the OS should provide error handling for conditions which I consider to be better handled within the applications. > If Apple wants to adopt NeXT and Mach, then it had better be fully > aware of the technical deficiencies of Unix, or Apple will lose its > edge of superiority. What "technical deficiencies" are you talking about, and precisely what "edge of superiority" did Apple and MacOS have over the NEXTSTEP (which is a Unix) operating system? In case you've forgotten, the reason Apple purchased NeXT was to remedy the technical deficiencies of the MacOS because Apple tried and failed to create their own replacement OS (q.v. Copland and Taligent). -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!news.uoregon.edu!tezcat!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.emi.com!usenet From: "Howard E. Hinant" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] Making The Ultimate Development Platform Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:44:20 -0500 Organization: Beam Technologies, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <330328BB.68C3@beamtech.com> References: Reply-To: heh@beamtech.com NNTP-Posting-Host: honeoye.beamtech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61493 comp.sys.next.programmer:22663 This sounds great. For me, the key point was stated, but perhaps not emphasized enough: "So when they write for Rhapsody, their applications can run on Mac OS, Wintel and UNIX boxes too." This is absolutely critical; Including the gui, the networking, and the multi-threading. (else we'll all be forced into java, gag!). -Howard MW Ron wrote: > > HI, > > Just thought I'd point out that there is an interview in Apples online > magazine Focus with Greg Galanos on the future plans of Metrowerks titled > Making The Ultimate Development Platform > > http://www2.apple.com/home/thirddecade/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!scripps.edu!wong!iano From: Ian Russell Ollmann Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 19:05:28 -0800 Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAD8FA.2C40@subsequent.com> <3301F37A.4B3@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: wong.scripps.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: iano@wong To: Gary Zhang In-Reply-To: <3301F37A.4B3@ix.netcom.com> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22664 comp.sys.mac.system:199265 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61496 On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Gary Zhang wrote: > IMHO which file system to choose really is not that important -- that > is, from a user's perspective. Ideally users (programmers being the > exception) should be shielded from the underlying file system. Having > the users to deal with file system directly is a major design flaw in > all the OSs to date (execuse me if I'm wrong on this one). Why should a > user be concerned with saving a file, creating a directory, and managing > folders? If computers are really smart they should do all these for the > user automatically. Ever tried to teach your mom to use a word > processor? It all goes fine until you ask her to SAVE the file? No > matter what you try she is not going to understand why you need to do > this. The point -- information storage should be automatic and > information retrieval should be intellegent. Right now the computer > behaves like a dumb warehouse where YOU have to do the cleanning and > organizing, while ideally it should be a SMART assistant who takes care > tedious works for you -- "computer, here is my memo, don't lose it!" or > "computer, I want to continue working on the unfinished article I > started yesterday!" THAT's what a computer should do! ... I think Apple > has a chance to create a really greate new OS. While trying to maintain > compatibility, they should also build something revolutionary. An > integrated, INTELLEGENT document management system should be one of > those to consider... Just my 2 cents. I think this is generally a good idea, but what of those documents that exist so dimly in your memory that you can't decribe them in sufficient detail for a computer (or another person for that matter) to find. In these cases, you'd have to fall back on some sort of visual file system cue, so it would always have to be there in some form. Also, if you use your computer a lot, you can start to build up thousands of files. It might be difficult to communicate to your computer the fine points of difference between (for example) your Netscape bookmarks html and the backup of it that you made last week or the week before, or which of sixteen saved games for DOOMII level 30 that you wish to play. Ian Ollmann #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 12 Feb 1997 16:57:09 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22665 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61498 comp.sys.mac.system:199272 On 11 Feb 1997 19:38:20 GMT, John Siracusa wrote: >Raul Sobon (a.sobon@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au) wrote: >: John Siracusa wrote: >: And ohh how wonderfull the Win95/NT solution of registry is... its NOT >: TEXT, >: but its binary.. and only regedit can edit it.. and IF IT GETS CURRUPTED >: as it often >: gets.. BOOM YOUR WIN95 is dead!!! and NOTHING but a clean install will >: fix it. > >: How great non text config files work...NOT! > >I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem >that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the >registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. Just in case you folks really think the registry is a bizarre mechanism, it's also (kind of) used in AIX; Most of the apps and h/w configuration is maintained in a registry that is edited by smit (I _still_ think "smut" was a better name, for "System Management UTility"; It's really just a curses-based front end to a sh*tload of executables...). While a centralized registry/repository makes _some_ sense, it really should've been embedded within the filesystem - especially since the i-node table is *itself* a registry of file objects within each filesystem (namespace is at a different level). I've already thrown in some ideas for such an enhancement on the "regular" Unix filesystems to support additional forks; I'm not sure how useful anybody who does this stuff for a living will find it. It's not like this is voodoo; It's not that it can't be done in a portable fashion; It's not that it can't be done simply; It's merely a lack of will to *get* it done. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 97 07:30:06 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22666 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61500 comp.sys.mac.system:199275 campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) writes: > An inode contains the timestamps of creation, modification > and access, permissions and an array of block numbers where Correction; there is no time stamp that says when the file is created (a *major* bummer in my opinion). There are three time stamps that tell you when a file was last: 1. modified (content) 2. mode changed (file attributes) 3. accessed -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!gtnduss1.du.gtn.com!news.knipp.de!not-for-mail From: anch@logiball.de (Andreas Christiani) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Re: Arbitary precision arithmetic? Date: 10 Feb 1997 10:02:24 GMT Organization: Knipp Medien und Kommunikation, Dortmund, Germany Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5dmrng$5i5$1@news.knipp.de> References: <1997Feb9.120321.1665@prim.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: odin.logiball.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22667 comp.sys.next.software:28034 Dave Griffiths wrote: >Hi, does anyone know of a simple maths library that will let you do >arbitary precision integer arithmetic from C/Obj-C on NeXTStep? I found >something called "pari" but it has a Sun3 assembler file that doesn't >compile. > >Thanks, > >Dave > Take a look at GNU MP (abbreviated gmp). A.C. --- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ LogiBall gGmbH * Innovationszentrum Herne * Westring 303 * 44629 Herne Andreas Christiani * christiani@logiball.de * http://www.logiball.de Tel.: 02323 / 925 577 * Fax : 02323 / 925 551 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!gtnduss1.du.gtn.com!news.knipp.de!object-factory.com!usenet From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: PrintForDebugger ??? Date: 10 Feb 1997 09:48:21 GMT Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany) Lines: 32 Message-ID: <5dmqt5$2nn@leonie.object-factory.com> References: <01bc154a$53c4c960$8279bdce@Pilot.rnt.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eddie.object-factory.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) "Christopher Erker" wrote: > I have a few question about PrintForDebugger. All of my 3rd party books > and manuals (for Next 3.3, and OpenStep 4.1) hardly mention this method, > but it looks really cool! > > 1) Is it only used through GDB? > 2) If so, then can I use it through Openstep? > > 3) Could someone post a short example on it's use. Hi, it's even more simple: AFAIK the debugger tries to invoke the -description method of any object you try to po. So if you implement this method the debugger should be able to po yor custom object. hope it helps, -dirk --- ______________________________________________________________________ Dirk Olmes OBJECT FACTORY Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0 Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99 dirk@object-factory.com http://www.object-factory.com/ Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 97 09:16:12 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 67 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-11-20.access.one.net In-reply-to: urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov's message of Wed, 12 Feb 1997 17:34:29 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22669 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61504 comp.sys.mac.system:199284 In article <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov>, urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban) writes: Creation time information will be necessary for Mac programs, Why? and would doubtless be helpful in some configuration management. Again, why? When would you want to do something to "all files created between such and such a date" as opposed to "all files modified between such and such a date"? Keep in mind that "modified" includes "replaced entirely" as a subset. If it was _really_ important that you get only files created in a certain timespan, you could easily end up with files that actually were created much later. Out-of-band data associated with files (Finder information, resource fork, and perhaps other things) could be added in a general way to a Unix file system; for all I know, the NeXT folk may already have done this. It would certainly be a more general solution than the traditional Unix reliance on "magic numbers" and similar hackery. (two forks are theoretically sufficient; the second fork can point to another file with two forks, in a linked-list sort of way if multiple forks are desired). Absolutely _not_. Beyond any gripes you're going to see from introducing some new type of links into the filesystem (yet another thing to cause hard-to-trace bugs in the filesystem code), if you're talking just theory, one fork and the ability to nest directories is sufficient. Just pretend that the directory is a linked list of nodes, there you go. Your choices really should be one fork or an undefined number of forks (directories give you the entire range, from zero to arbitrarily high). Why should Finder be a priviledged process in this context? _I_ want to be able to store out-of-band crap with my files, too! Everyone needs to keep in mind that under any future NeXTSTEP+MacOS operating system, Finder will be Just Another Executable. Yes, it will be _an_ application launcher - but it won't be _the_ executable launcher, if you see what I mean. Specifically, decisions like "who gets to open this file" need to be moved into a completely configurable user-land database of some sort, both because not all programs and files care (and thus shouldn't have to pay the toll), and because once you put something like this in the kernel, you are stuck with it _forever_. Transparent on-the-fly format upgrades are completely appropriate for applications, but completely _inappropriate_ for the kernel. [One starts to wonder if Copland and Taligent fell by the wayside because someone involved (management?) didn't understand the meaning of the word _kernel_, and the reasoning behind microkernels. "Don't forget the kernel level Tetris clone." For various reasons, you want as little as possible in the kernel, including things that might otherwise be very useful, but are just too complex. The kernel is _not_ an area where we want people trying out their pet theories - well, I don't want _you_ trying out _your_ pet theories on _my_ kernel.] [Hell, why not go with a real microkernel, put a BSD FFS filesystem server on it, and then layer an all-the-forks-you-want filesystem server on top of _that_? Then you can also layer the forked filesystem server over your NFS filesystem server. Stuff that in your pipe and smoke it :-).] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 97 09:53:13 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22670 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61505 comp.sys.mac.system:199288 macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: >vary from user to user. If you're talking about the type of thing >that is stored in preference files on the Mac, then the logical >solution is to have separate preference folders for each user. Yes, definetley. >This doesn't really apply since, abilities aside, Rhaposdy will >be targeted as a single-user system from what I have read. Let's hope not! The lack of a true user concept is one of the major lacks of the Mac OS. By the time Rhapsody really ships, every other computer worth the name will have some sort of user concept. I do hope Apple will not be the last to get onto that ship. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!hammer.uoregon.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:35:42 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 76 Message-ID: <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22671 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61509 comp.sys.mac.system:199293 John 'kzin' Rudd wrote: > > Jonathan W. Hendry wrote: > > Sure it does. If I use Photoshop to edit a tiff, it'll > > get a Photoshop creator code, correct? If my coworker > > Bob prefers to work in Painter, he won't be able to > > double-click files that I've opened and have them open > > in Painter. After he saves them, I won't be able to > > open them in Photoshop by double-clicking. > > > > This is a pain. Yes, you can open by drag n drop, > > and yes you can open from the open panel. > > > > except that what you're talking about is NOT "creator" information. > It's more appropriately called "prefered application" or something like > that. If the app somehow tracks the creator and file type (via any of > the suggested mechanisms), it's trivial for the GUI to look at the > creator, check to see if you have a "if app A is the creator, launch app > B instead" entry in some preferences, and launch that instead. Or, have > to GUI launch an app you have associated with the file type instead of > an app you have substituted for the creator. The Mac only uses the creator code which is what I'm bitching about. > However, in either case, storing and associating the document creator > with/with-in the file itself has absolutely no affect on multiuser > environments. If you only use an in-file creator code to determine the application, as the Mac does, then it does have an effect on multiuser environments. The way the Mac uses the creator code - to determine what app to use to open a file - is inherently poor for a multiuser environment. > It may seem pendantic to point out the difference between "creator" and > what you're talking about, but it is semantically different. The > creator of a file is the creator of the file no matter whether you like > to use that application or not. If "creator" is going to be recorded, > then it really is an attribute of the file itself, and should somehow be > stored with it. Okay. My beef is with the Macintosh's usage of the creator code, not the existence of one. > However, each user should have the option to substitute some other app, > in case they don't want to use the actual applications creator.. and > that list of preferences would probably be best called "Prefered > applications" or something.. which would read something like: > > I prefer Painter for Photoshop apps. Photoshop documents, you mean? > Which would probably be mapped like "Photoshop.app -> Painter.app", > and thus when you launched a file created by Photoshop, it would > bring up Painter. :-} The problem with this arrangement is that it creates a potentially large set of mappings, especially when you get into mapping to both creator and type. It seems more useful to just map types, and not creators. -- jon@steeldriving.com x x x x x #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.gtn.com!gtnduss1.du.gtn.com!news.knipp.de!not-for-mail From: anch@logiball.de (Andreas Christiani) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: problem with filter services Date: 12 Feb 1997 12:11:36 GMT Organization: Knipp Medien und Kommunikation, Dortmund, Germany Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5dsc1o$jo2$1@news.knipp.de> References: <5dji83$g1q@nef.ens.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: odin.logiball.de X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) wrote: >I have OmniImageFilter installed and my program outputs all the >pasteboard types I want ("image format gif/bmp/...") > >./test foo.tiff "NeXT TIFF v4.0 pasteboard type" foo2.tiff >(not very useful : translate tiff to tiff :-) >gives me a good result : (here data is not NULL) > >but if I try : >./test foo.tiff "image format gif" foo.gif >it detects that "image format gif" is a good type but >data is always NULL... > >why ? >(in fact the only working types are "NeXT TIFF v4.0 pasteboard type" >and "NXTypedFilenamePboardType:tiff" which do not require any filter >services) > >It seems that Pasteboard know the services but doesn't want to use it ! IMHO the OmniImageFilters are only input-filters. That means you can only translate the given types to NeXT-TIFF format. Read the README in OmniImagFilter.service. By the way : writing gif is only allowed by permission of COMPUSERVE :-) If you're only searching for converting tool, give me note and I tell you which you can use. Bye, A.C. --- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ LogiBall gGmbH * Innovationszentrum Herne * Westring 303 * 44629 Herne Andreas Christiani * christiani@logiball.de * http://www.logiball.de Tel.: 02323 / 925 577 * Fax : 02323 / 925 551 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!halon.vggas.com!news From: JYoungman@vggas.com (James Youngman) Newsgroups: comp.dcom.fax,comp.os.linux.development.apps,comp.os.linux.misc,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Want partner(s) in multi-platform FAX related programming project Date: 13 Feb 1997 10:39:03 GMT Organization: VG Gas Analysis Systems Message-ID: <5dur07$eou@halon.vggas.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: uriel.vggas.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.8 (x86 32bit) Lines: 14 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.dcom.fax:16354 comp.os.linux.development.apps:31352 comp.os.linux.misc:173105 comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.misc:113823 comp.os.os2.programmer.misc:50698 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20792 comp.sys.next.programmer:22673 In article , linus@idirect.com says... >Now a bit about the project itself ... > >A document transmission/reception system, also capable of routing faxes over the Internet, including support for SSL (using SSLeay, ftp://ft You mean, something a bit like HylaFAX? -- James Youngman VG Gas Analysis Systems |The trouble with the rat-race Before sending advertising material, read |is, even if you win, you're http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/47/227.html|still a rat. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!newsfeeds.sol.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mercury.arc.ab.ca!usenet From: schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca (Brian Schack) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Referencing externs from loaded bundle on OpenStep/NT - how? Date: 13 Feb 1997 09:48:16 -0700 Organization: Alberta Research Council, Calgary Alberta, Canada Lines: 69 Sender: schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: eldar.arc.ab.ca X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 We have an application consisting of a main program, and several bundles which are loaded at run time using [NSBundle initWithPath:]. The bundles reference several global variables in the main program. We've compiled and run the code successfully on NeXT hardware, Solaris OpenStep, and plain old gcc on a Sun. However, we cannot get it to work under OpenStep/NT - the main program and the bundle end up looking at two entirely different bits of memory. Here's a quick synopsis of the code: ---- main program ---- int global = 42; int main() { ... NSBundle* b = [[NSBundle alloc] initWithPath:@"test.bundle"]; Class bClass = [b principalClass]; [[bClass alloc] init]; ... } ---- bundle ---- extern int global; @implementation test - init { ... printf("global = %d\n", global); ... } ... @end -------- When run, it prints out something like: global = 3487248 definitely not the right answer. OPENSTEP 4.1 Release Notes (Entry Number 2473, Reference 72308) talks about exporting symbols from Frameworks (I think - it isn't very clear), but not how to import symbols into bundles. OPENSTEP/NT Developer FAQ (Entry Number 2462) also talks about exporting symbols from frameworks, but once again not how to import symbols into bundles. I've trying prefacing the 'extern int global' with a __declspec(dllimport), and the 'int global = 42' with a __declspec(dllexport), and various other combinations, all with no luck. Has anybody experienced this problem and know how to deal with it? Thanks, Brian -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Schack |mailto:schack@arc.ab.ca | "I don't want to achieve Alberta Research Council |http://www.arc.ab.ca | immortality through my 6815 8th St NE | | work ... I want to achieve Calgary, Alberta |ph: (403) 297-7564 | it through not dying." Canada T2E 7H7 |fax: (403) 297-2339 | - Woody Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in3.uu.net!144.212.100.12!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 97 10:04:47 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-26-26.access.one.net In-reply-to: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com's message of 12 Feb 1997 16:57:09 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22675 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61517 comp.sys.mac.system:199304 In article , campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) writes: On 11 Feb 1997 19:38:20 GMT, John Siracusa wrote: >I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane filesystem >that doesn't allow putting the information contained in the >registry in the files themselves, where it would make more sense. While a centralized registry/repository makes _some_ sense, it really should've been embedded within the filesystem - especially since the i-node table is *itself* a registry of file objects within each filesystem (namespace is at a different level). I'm not so certain about that. Documents are not the be-all and end-all of a GUI environment! NeXTSTEP uses two "registries", NetInfo and the defaults database. NetInfo is more of a system level registry, used for things like usernames and NFS info. defaults is an entirely user-level database, used to store things like where you want windows to appear and how you want applications to work. Some stuff is perfectly good to store with the document. For instance, where the document's windows were on the screen last time you closed it. Other stuff is not appropriate, such as where you want to store your template documents, or what document was open when you quit the application. You _can't_ store some of that stuff in an app-specific area on a multi-user system (say, the app's resource fork or forks). Either the app would have to manage multiple users (unlikely to happen, in practice), or every user would trounce every other user's preferences. Besides the obvious security hole of allowing write access to apps. On a NeXTSTEP network, you generally install apps read-only, and the apps store their preferences information in the defaults database, which is a per-user thing, with the magic handled by the system's libraries. [John, you probably knew all that - I just wanted to make the point that a registry is not necessarily something that can be replaced by information stored with files in the filesystem.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 12 Feb 1997 17:13:36 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 56 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <0myB5iy00iWY461F04@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22676 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4070 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61520 comp.sys.mac.system:199313 On Wed, 12 Feb 1997 05:04:59 -0900, M wrote: >soup@jtan.com (John R. Campbell) wrote: > >> So the Mac handles things oddly, and, because there is no >> CLI available it cannot do any task that hasn't been pre- >> programmed. Unix (and, to a lesser extent, MS-DOG) can use >> small programs in a "pipeline" to handle extremely complex >> tasks. > >I take it you've never heard of AppleScript or Frontier. . . :) > >No, It's not the same as unix pipes, but it can act as the glue between >apps to do pipe-like operations. Plus, it can have control over GUI based >apps in ways that I've never seen on any other system. Sure, but remember that you're tying together high-level (GUI driving) utility programs. What I'm referring to are the "low level" CLI-based programs you find in Unix. And herein lies the rub: Unix is based upon the idea that each utility should do one (simple) thing *well* (there are obvious exceptions like awk) and encourage the user to construct a pipeline (by providing simple tools to do so) that will combine these operations into a final form. Mac applications (and utilities) are dependant upon user supervision via the GUI to perform their tasks and embed all the necessary functionality within their code to perform all possible tasks. A Mac is a primarily interactive device, requiring (normally) close human supervision of each application to perform their tasks. While there is nothing stopping a Unix kernel from underlying the MacOS, the lack of a CLI would mean that the "regular" Unix utility tree would be rendered irrelevant. Of course, if the "extended information" is embedded as a header to each file, most of the text-oriented utilities would be rendered useless anyway. So my argument isn't MacOS utility programs, it's using the "standard" Unix command set. Yes, I know that "standard Unix" is oxymoronic; I've been around. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!psinntp!chapman.com!chapman.com!geordie From: geordie@chapman.com (Geordie Korper) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:49:08 -0600 Organization: Chapman and Cutler Lines: 26 Approved: USDA Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: korper Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22677 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61521 comp.sys.mac.system:199314 In article , Stephen Peters wrote: :Ditto on the various discussions on adding the `time created' field to :augment the last modified and other time codes stored with the file. :For me, once I start caring about the time the file was first created, :I start caring about all the changes that were made, which seems to :scream `revision control system' to me. (And if you copy a file from :somewhere else, should it inherit the source file's created time?) : :Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Can someone help enlighten me? It actually become very useful in a filesystem that is not accessed using hierarchial metaphors. Since I have ten thousand files on my drive some of which could be located in one of several places it is convenient to be able to search based upon when I made the file as well as name and file type and in the worst cases contents. -- Geordie Korper geordie@chapman.com ********************************************************************* * The text above should in no way be construed to represent the * * opinions of my employer, even if specifically stated to do so. * ********************************************************************* #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!main.Germany.EU.net!EU.net!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!metro.atlanta.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!usenet.srv.cis.pitt.edu!shaffer From: shaffer@durer.phyast.pitt.edu (C. David Shaffer) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: templates Date: 13 Feb 1997 14:57:12 GMT Organization: University of Pittsburgh Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> <5dqm0o$c1a@news.orst.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: durer.phyast.pitt.edu In-reply-to: hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM's message of Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:39:39 GMT Hmm, transcript from my session included below. Compiled and ran just fine. Maybe a different version of libg++? ernie> cat test.cc #include #include #include typedef SLList StringList; main(){ StringList listOfnames; listOfnames.append("hello world"); cout < cc++ -o test test.cc -lg++ ernie> ./test hello world ernie> -- David Shaffer Department of Physics Wayne State College Wayne, NE 68787 shaffer@phyast.pitt.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!vnetnews.value.net!ms.genetics.bio-rad.com!user From: msoori@genetics.bio-rad.com (msoori) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 13 Feb 1997 18:03:50 GMT Organization: Bio-Rad Laboratories Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ms.genetics.bio-rad.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22679 comp.sys.mac.system:199317 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61523 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4071 In article <33026799.D07@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote: > > Under any Unix, when a processes tries to open() a file, it can receive > > any of about a dozen errors, including EACCESS (file not found, or bad > > permissions). There are not fatal errors, and the OS does _not_ kill > > the process when they occur. It's up to the process to implement > > appropriate error handling upon receiving these errors. > > And this is wrong. An OS should handle many more of these common errors. How should the OS know what the application intended to do with the file? What if the application implemeted a sort of virtual mem scheme or an application preferences file that the user has no idea about, and if the OS cant find/create it it should asks the user to find it??? This is application domain not the OS. What you say makes sense for some files that the user is aware of, but in genereal the OS dosent know what a file's intended purpose is. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Mahesh P. Sooriarachchi. ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Work: msoori@genetics.bio-rad.com | ~ ~ Home: mahesh@value.net | This space for rent! ~ ~ Home Page: http://value.net/~mahesh/ | ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 97 08:52:41 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-11-20.access.one.net In-reply-to: "Jonathan W. Hendry"'s message of Thu, 13 Feb 1997 04:35:42 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22680 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61524 comp.sys.mac.system:199318 In article <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com>, "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: Okay. My beef is with the Macintosh's usage of the creator code, not the existence of one. OK, then, I'll beef. If some bit of information is not really necessary, then it shouldn't be added to the filesystem. If the creator code is just a nice little bit of trivia which follows a file around, but isn't necessary to figure out who to open the file with, then who cares? If it's in the information the filesystem maintains, then it's a drag on _every_ file, _every_ access, _every_ program. Put another way, if we must have it, rather than a creator code like "DRAW", I'd rather have something like "NeXT Draw demo program, version 3.14". Even better if it's got fields for creating user, date, hostname, etc, etc. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 97 09:46:15 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 44 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-11-20.access.one.net In-reply-to: peterm@dna.lth.se's message of 13 Feb 97 09:11:28 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22681 comp.sys.mac.system:199319 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61525 In article , peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: Charles William Swiger writes: >Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the >timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file >when you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified >version. Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care >about that timestamp? Easily; quite often I try to figure out which version of a file or a program is the oldest and the created time stamp is very handy in those situations. I admit that this is often a problem when I move files around nad/or have the "same" file on several places: my hard disk at work, my file server at work, a floppy on the way home or my hard disk at home; but there are other instances. When I have a small utility program that doesn't have proper version information and I am to determine which of two versions is the oldest. I see no reason not to have a created time stamp. I have cursed the unix file system more than once for not having such a time stamp. But a created timestamp doesn't solve the problem you asked to be solved. In the following situation: cp file1 /a/file1 cp file1 /b/file1 edit /a/file1 Which file is created first, /a/file1 or /b/file1? /a/file1. Which file is the most recently modified version? /a/file1. Pretend that /a is actually your machine at work, and /b is actually your machine at home. You look on the proxy for your home machine (a Zip disk, say), and see that the file1 on your work disk was created before the file1 on the Zip disk, and copy the file from the Zip to your work disk, overwriting the edited version. In this case, it's the last-modified timestamp you're looking for. Does anyone have a better example of why a created timestamp is needed? Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!nef.ens.fr!drakkar!jalon From: jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: problem with filter services Date: 13 Feb 1997 12:33:02 GMT Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris Message-ID: <5dv1lu$2rp@nef.ens.fr> References: <5dji83$g1q@nef.ens.fr> <5dsc1o$jo2$1@news.knipp.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: drakkar.ens.fr Lines: 102 In article <5dsc1o$jo2$1@news.knipp.de>, Andreas Christiani wrote: >IMHO the OmniImageFilters are only input-filters. That means you can only >translate the given types to NeXT-TIFF format. Read the README in >OmniImagFilter.service. No, OmniImageFilter are also TIFF->other formats filters (it's in the README and in the OmniImageFilter.service/services file) My code works fine if I include it in an app structure. The solution is just to include : [Application new] at the begining of my source ant it works fine. here is my source : (it's not finished but it works) --- genericfilter.m #import #import void main(int argc, char *argv[]) { id myPb; const NXAtom *list; NXStream *stream; const char *selectedType; char *data; int length; if(argc!=4) { printf("Usage: %s FILE NEWFORMAT OUTFILE\n",argv[0]); exit(0); } [Application new]; myPb=[Pasteboard newByFilteringFile:argv[1]]; list=[myPb types]; if(!list) { printf("No filter available\n"); [myPb free]; [NXApp free]; exit(0); } printf("available types :\n"); while(*list) { printf("%s\n",*list); if(!strcmp(argv[2],*list)) { selectedType=*list; } list++; } if(!selectedType) { printf("%s is not a goot type\n",argv[2]); [myPb free]; [NXApp free]; exit(0); } printf("selected type : \"%s\"\n",selectedType); printf("opening stream...\n"); stream=[myPb readTypeToStream:selectedType]; if(!stream) { printf("nothing read on stream\n"); [myPb free]; [NXApp free]; exit(0); } printf("writing to \"%s\"\n",argv[3]); if(NXSaveToFile(stream,argv[3])) { printf("unable to save to \"%s\"\n",argv[3]); exit(0); } NXCloseMemory(stream,NX_FREEBUFFER); [myPb free]; [NXApp free]; exit(0); } --- >By the way : writing gif is only allowed by permission of COMPUSERVE :-) writing ? I thought the problem was to produce source code which writes/read gifs... my program doesn't, it's the OmniImageFilter which does ! >If you're only searching for converting tool, give me note and I tell you >which you can use. I know almost all the converting tool. My idea was to produce a "generic converter" using all the facilities of NS. I can do : ./genericfilter foo.tiff "image format gif" foo.gif ./genericfilter foo.gif "image format bmp" foo.bmp ./genericfilter foo.pic "NeXT TIFF v4.0 pasteboard type" foo.tiff and also : ./genericfilter foo.rtf "NeXT plain ascii pasteboard type" foo.txt and whatever you want if the proper filter is installed ! --Julien -- Julien Jalon | Ecole normale superieure jalon@clipper.ens.fr | 45 rue d'Ulm http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/ | 75230 Paris Cedex 05 | FRANCE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Dynamic flag in 4.0 and 4.1 Date: 13 Feb 1997 16:29:38 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5dvfhi$s0i@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <5cq1m5$6vs@elna.ethz.ch> <5dt3ja$nc3@news.NeXT.COM> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca9-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Feb 13 8:29:38 AM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) wrote: > If you set the DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH environment variable, any programs that > you load will attempt to find the frameworks they depend on in those > directories first. This allows you to easily test a new version of a > framework, while keeping the old version installed in it's usual place. How can DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH be used when launching an app from Workspace? Because Workspace isn't a shell subprocess, there doesn't seem to be an easy way to set DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH for Workspace-launched apps. I understand how to use DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH from gdb or when launching an app from a shell. But the dyld man page doesn't state that these restrictions apply. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 OPENSTEP/NT Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!usenet From: Bill Keller Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:49:48 -0600 Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Lines: 28 Message-ID: <3302B98C.4590@okstate.edu> References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stf-dialup03.cvm.okstate.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Keller (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Priority: Normal Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22684 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61529 comp.sys.mac.system:199333 John Rudd wrote: [big snip!]  > Even though the other day I thought the inode was the best place to add this, > thinking about it more (thinking about what I wrote at the time more, even), > I think a wrapper is the best way to handle this. A wrapper which is > recognized, not by name, but by containing an identifying resource (like a > file ".wrapper"). The .wrapper file can contain any meta information you > need (perhaps in pairs like "creator = photoshop", "creator_version = x.y", > "file_type = tiff", "file_type_version = a.b", etc). > Amen! Thats the best approach I've seen yet on this thread. If you've used Openstep (I've just used the NT version), it uses something called property lists. In fact, there is even a Foundation class to handle this (NSPPL). You can store any info within these lists. The system can store whatever it wants within the .plist files, and use that info at runtime. Ultimately, the current Mac community doesn't care about the mechanics of how the information is retrieved, they just want to click on the file and go. If you can implement that functionality without screwing up the filesystem, that's the route you need to go. I read that Apple is not going to use Mach 3.0 for just this reason. They want to stick with something they know works, rather than waste alot of time to implement something that might not. -- Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu) --------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!usenet From: Bill Keller Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 00:56:52 -0600 Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Lines: 27 Message-ID: <3302BB34.34EB@okstate.edu> References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: stf-dialup03.cvm.okstate.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Keller (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Priority: Normal Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22685 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61530 comp.sys.mac.system:199336 Robert Beeman wrote: > Yup, sounds good to me, although I'm not an expert. It does lead me to > two questions that maybe you can answer: > > 1. Instead of a nice single file with everything in it (executables, > icons, tutorial, notes, etc) you now have a collection of files, some of > which are invisible. Take Disinfectant 3.6, for example. You copy one > file, its all there. If you use the .wrapper extra file, doesn't this all > get lost if you FTP the file from somewhere else? I suppose you could > come up with something like MacBinary to handle these invisible "support" > files, but its still somewhat ugly, and you could end up with files > missing icons, etc. Wouldn't it be better to embed this info into the > first bytes of the file itself? I think this is how OpenDoc embeds > creators, etc, and wouldn't using the OpenDoc methods be a better idea > anyway? It certainly would give you the same "one file holds everything" > that is so convenient. Sorry about jumping into the middle of this thread, but under Nextstep, you can declare a directory (a wrapper), to not even appear to be a directory. If I have Photoshop.app, it acts, in every respect, as a file. Its not. Its a directory of files. If I want to copy or move this, I click on the icon, and drag it where it's supposed to go. And all the files get moved together. -- Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu) --------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.itd.umich.edu!usenet From: Alan Olson Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 12:21:19 -0500 Organization: University of Michigan EECS Dept., Ann Arbor, MI Lines: 60 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: caucasus.eecs.umich.edu X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22686 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61535 comp.sys.mac.system:199346 "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: > [deletions...] > Sure it does. If I use Photoshop to edit a tiff, it'll > get a Photoshop creator code, correct? If my coworker > Bob prefers to work in Painter, he won't be able to > double-click files that I've opened and have them open > in Painter. After he saves them, I won't be able to > open them in Photoshop by double-clicking. This is not a problem with multiple users, this is a problem with using multiple applications to edit the same file. A single individual would encounter this problem if he prefered the Photoshop tools for some of his work and the Painter tools for the rest. [more deletions...] > > This is a pain. If I prefer to edit tiffs in Painter, that > should be the application that is used when I double-click. > I should only be forced to use other methods in the > exceptional case - when I want to use the other application. > In the typical case, I should not have to go out of my way. > > Under *no circumstances*, should *I* be forced to take extra > steps because of *someone else's* application usage preferences. > An operating system which makes me do this is broken. Sounds like you want file type to determine which application to open. That's a valid way of doing things, and in some ways its better than using creator codes. On a Mac the problem is there is no standardization of type codes (as far as I know). You can't tell the format/contents of a file just by looking at the type. There are a few types which are widely recognized (e.g., TEXT), but I don't think Apple has issued directives saying that files of type XXXX must have such and such a format. I should also point out that using creator codes is not entirely bad. It works fine for many (most?) people who create a file with a particular program, and always use the same program when editing the file. It is also good when you want to use several programs to work with files of a particular type. For example, you often edit JPEG files with Photoshop, you also want to look at JPEG files you download from the net. Photoshop isn't a particularly good or efficient JPEG viewer, you'd rather use JPEGView instead. If you only look at fiie type you are forced to make a choice. With creator codes you can set the appropriate creator for each so that the desired application is launched. Having universally recognized types would be nice, and I hope Apple considers doing this. One solution would be to let people choose between a type-centric or a creator-centric system (i.e., a user preference). A more sophisticated system which used both type and creator information would be better: e.g., lauch Photoshop for all JPEG files unless the creator is DNLD in which case launch JPEGView. Implementing a usable interface for such a system is left as an exercise for the reader. Alan Olson alan@eecs.umich.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 18:47:16 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 146 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dh51p$9hn@news.bu.edu> <5dtlu3$93o$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22687 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61537 comp.sys.mac.system:199349 On 13 Feb 1997 00:06:27 GMT, John Rudd wrote: >In John R. Campbell wrote: >> >> Let's assume a mangled Unix-like filesystem that allows for out-of- >> band information to be stored in a special block w/i the inode. >> Under normal circumstances this block won't be allocated on the >> disk unless an application needs it, so the overhead isn't too >> terrible. In order to get at the information we'd either need >> to extend the stat() and fstat() calls or just do I/O to the block >> via ioctl() (normally used for out-of-band management of devices). >> > >First, before I say this, I want to say I think it would be MUCH better to go >with the wrapper solution.. in the same way Mach-o is an improvement over a >HFS solution (N forks vs 2 forks), and Wrappers are an improvement over >Mach-o (N forks + heirarchy vs N forks) for executables, I think the same >will be true for wrappers as data files. Entertaining thought, but just that... My main thrust in all of this is to address the ability to use "regular" Unix utilities *in addition* to the MacOS programs. I envision that the first 512bytes block of a file (or 1K, if this is the filesystem's internal granularity) become a hidden "resource fork" to retain fork information. In effect, the file will have an lseek() offset automagically added by the filesystem unless a fcntl() flag (to be allocated?) is set, allowing read/write access to the "hidden" region. The Unix "cp" program would need to perform the fcntl() on both source and destination files to ensure a full copy is performed. This guarantees that the "resource fork" travels with the file. Granted, other parts of the system will need to know about this offset (like the exec() syscall) but this isn't that major a deal (consider how easily this can be done). If we don't provide this mode for all files we will need to add a 1bit flag to indicate whether the offset exists or not. This is actually a fallback to the "header" issue; It's just that the header isn't available to any programs but those that have a "need to know". This allows awk/grep/sed/vi/emacs to look at the contents of a file and not end up sucking in or destroying the header. Of course, cp, tar, cpio and perhaps dd will need to be privy to this region so that the backup is complete. Remember, even directories will have these headers. >However, I went and looked at the Inode structures to see if there is an >unused field that can be used for storing creator information (storing type >information isn't something I think you can do in the current inode.. you >could store an integer that referenced a list of types, but then you can only >have files be of a "blessed" type to take advantage of that.. that's too >limiting, in my opinion -- so you'd probably need to stick with keeping the >file type information in the file name). Are you talking Linux's ext2 or Mach-o? I've not been delving w/i the i-node structure of ext2 (or the others). Mind you, using an index is bogus; You might as well use /etc/magic for such signatures. >There are 4 "reserved for future use" long's in the inode structure >(inode.i_ic.ic_spare[4]) which could be used to store a) a device (a short), >and b) an inode (a u_long) for the creator's location, and c) the time_t >(long) of the file's last access by that creator at that inode. You'd >probably also want to use the spare c time (inode.i_ic.ic_ctspare) for the >"create time" of any arbitrary file. Actually, we could (if we're gonna keep it out of the regular block list) add a block number (which will require fsck to be aware of). Mind you, this adds extra complications. There are several utility programs that will need to be updated for this new filesystem. Additionally, why are you thinking that the i-node can't be changed? We're not expecting to support an existing filesystem (I guess this would become "ext3" or "cfufs" for Linux). >Then, when you access the file to find its creator, you a) check the create >time of your file, find the device and inode of its creator and see if the >file at THAT inode was created more recently than item C above. If the >creator inode is more recent, then the creator file is no longer valid (it >was destroyed since you last accessed this file from that creator). >Otherwise, that file is the creator. Sure, you can do that, but it doesn't help if the creating utility is in another filesystem or across a network. There's just too much information required. A "transparent" header make *just* enough sense (though there'd be quite a bit of debate over what the internals of this header will look like). >There are some limits here... in file transfer via things like ftp and such, >you WILL lose this data. It is non-portable to non-Rhapsody machines (it can >be stored there via NFS, but the other machine wont use it, and it may get >corrupted by the other machine(s), esp if they use this "reserved for future >use" field for something else). However it doesn't create a seperate pool of >information (the "pointer to a block" method would also be lost.. in >transfer, btw), it doesn't have things spread across multipe files even at >the lowest file level. It's just a simple "here's my creator" tag. Well, you lose this information via FTP anyway, so there's no real reason to allow FTP access to this transparent header (though it can be argued that a new flag could be added, but why bother?). NFS isn't really popular for Macs anyway, though a "MacFS" port for an enhanced MacNFS can be argued as sensible. In a "normal" NFS server running Unix these transparent headers won't be seen (remember you need to fcntl() a special flag to turn off the lseek() offset logic) unless enhancements are put in place. Also, since (IIRC) fcntl() *is* supported by NFS, we can find a way to use this. The idea isn't to make a MacOS environment a "perfect match" but to allow the Unix utilities to be used on the same files. >It's also a bit of a hack.. not very elegant nor extensible. But it would >probably work. I just don't think we want to be implimenting these things >via hacks. I think the transparent header isn't that much of a hack; It's awkward in some ways but opens up the opportunity to add more functionality to the filesystem, even for Unix. The truly great debate will center on what kind (and format) of information is placed in this "transparent" header. If this technique is really useful it is likely to find it's way into other filesystems; But it must first be seen as a truly useful enabling technology for Unix. It's something of a pity that I spent more time dealing with various device drivers rather than the filesystem code. I'll have to see what kind of cheat I can put together for Linux so I can try this out... -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in3.uu.net!162.62.21.8!adaptec!margaret.trillium.adaptec.com!user From: rang@trillium.adaptec.com (Anton Rang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:29:26 -0600 Organization: Trillium Research, an Adaptec company Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: margaret.trillium.adaptec.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22688 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61538 comp.sys.mac.system:199351 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > In article <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov>, > urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban) writes: > Creation time information will be necessary for Mac programs, > > Why? Because they already have access to it, so it has to be there to preserve backwards compatibility. (Does anyone use it? Probably; but it doesn't matter.) > and would doubtless be helpful in some configuration management. > > Again, why? When would you want to do something to "all files created > between such and such a date" as opposed to "all files modified > between such and such a date"? "Let me find all of the files which were placed on my disk when I installed CyberDog and its plug-ins. I want to copy them over to my new 20GB hard disk." Or, "I know I wrote the first draft of that article in September or October, and updated it last week...let me find all the files on the server like that." Just because you can't think of a reason to do it doesn't mean there aren't valid ones. (Conversely, just because there are valid reasons to do it doesn't mean it has to be possible.) > Keep in mind that "modified" includes "replaced entirely" as a subset. Well, it depends on what you mean by "replaced entirely"...the entire contents or the entire file? > [One starts to wonder if Copland and Taligent fell by the wayside > because someone involved (management?) didn't understand the meaning > of the word _kernel_, and the reasoning behind microkernels. Have you actually read the Copland microkernel white paper? -- anton #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!mercury.arc.ab.ca!usenet From: schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca (Brian Schack) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Referencing externs from loaded bundle on OpenStep/NT - how? Date: 13 Feb 1997 13:23:46 -0700 Organization: Alberta Research Council, Calgary Alberta, Canada Lines: 33 Sender: schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: eldar.arc.ab.ca In-reply-to: schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca's message of 13 Feb 1997 09:48:16 -0700 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Schack writes: Brian> We have an application consisting of a main program, and Brian> several bundles which are loaded at run time using Brian> [NSBundle initWithPath:]. The bundles reference several Brian> global variables in the main program. [etc] Well, I've just discovered the answer. The answer is given by NeXT's OPENSTEP/NT Developer FAQ, Entry Number: 2462, under the question: Q: Why do I get a segmentation fault when trying to use a bundle? A: There is a problem with code in a bundle trying to access global variables in the main application. Typically, when the bundle code tries to access the global variable, you will get a segmentation fault. The solution is to put these global symbols into a framework and link both the application and the bundle against the framework. You must also implement additional declarations (given in the next question) to export symbols other than class and category names from your frameworks. That'll teach me for skimming through the docs! It's a shame that it doesn't work the same on NT as it does on other machines though. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian Schack |mailto:schack@arc.ab.ca | "I don't want to achieve Alberta Research Council |http://www.arc.ab.ca | immortality through my 6815 8th St NE | | work ... I want to achieve Calgary, Alberta |ph: (403) 297-7564 | it through not dying." Canada T2E 7H7 |fax: (403) 297-2339 | - Woody Allen ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 13 Feb 1997 19:21:10 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 120 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <5dth6r$2c3@zoodle.robin.de> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22690 comp.sys.mac.system:199356 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61540 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4077 On 12 Feb 1997 22:45:47 GMT, Ulrich Grepel wrote: >On 02/12/97, Charles William Swiger wrote: >>Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & >>Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >>> This leads to many applications having superfluous code to >>> handle these exception conditions. This is very common code which >>> really should be in the OS. But this is where the signal handlers belong. The operating system is *not* an application, it merely arranges for services. It's really a convenience that is has some way of asynchronously notifying a user process that it's getting seriously overweight; It must fall to the application writer to decide what the best course of action should be (like save temp files and exit, for instance). >>Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' >>when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS >>should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These >>two statements are mutually contradictory. Yup. Either the application is actually part of the OS or not. If it ain't you've got more power. The OS ain't magic, it ain't Sparky (ObB5ref), so it has little need-to-know about the internals of an application. Remember, a computer may "simulate" certain levels of intelligence (as in expert systems) but it can't provide "judgement". An OS is not a place for an expert system, and how would you imbue it with judgement? >>How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying >>the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors >>occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting >>the process decide for itself what should be done? But *what* is the "right thing"? In Unix mere notification via a signal is pretty damn sufficient, giving the app the ability to choose a corrective action (and some signals are just there to notify of I/O completion, like SIGIO). >Yes, exactly. The rest is more Re: Ian Joyner's posting Well that's clear. *NOT* >If you've got a situation where an operator is able to provide the right >tape containing the wanted file, then this is not really an error condition at >all. It's just the operating system stalling the application and checking >whether the user can do something to help. > >I don't know anything about Unisys systems, but I do know a bit about MVS and >VSE. Basically, if you cannot provide the tape needed by your batch programs, >most of the times the only useful option is to kill the job. Manually. Most >JCLs or batch programs I've seen do not provide appropriate error checking. >Imagine an MVS or VSE job for sending an email. The jcl tries to locate the >equivalent of a .signature file. You don't have one, and don't want to create >one. Now what could the OS do? Ask the user for the file? Well... I don't want >a .signature file. Kill the job? Well... a .sig is not vitally important for >an email message. Tell the application? See, that's what most OSes do in such >circumstances. On the ol' Exec-8 (now OS-1100, OS-2200 I guess) all batch jobs entered a "Facilities Inventory" phase where all the assigns needed for the first job step are pending. Once these have been satisfied (by disk or tape mounts) the batch job will be released from the backlog. (The last time I dealt w/ Exec-8 it's version was 38R5- almost an eternity, ain't it?) In Unix it depends on the application. An open() call will return an error indicator (and set the errno variable) and it is up to the program to perform corrective action. >And that doesn't include the possibility of lock/unlock going wrong. Lock/Unlock have a tendency to "stall" the user's process until the syscall completes. And let's not get into "advisory" vs. "mandatory" file locking. >>> (I think we should all run down to our Unisys A Series shop to >>> learn how a real operating system works, they have been doing >>> this for decades, and application development and system operations >>> is far simpler). >>Does anyone besides me detect a common bias between the last paragraph >>and the .signature? >Well, seems like it should be "...we have been doing..." > >A colleague of mine also calls all non-mainframe operating systems "Nintendo >systems". Sounds like an odd bias. I've done years with mainframes (DEC-10, Xerox Sigma-9 w/CP-V, UNIVAC 1100s before getting into Unix. Unix is a different conceptual model optimized to provide a wide range of services to an individual user but it isn't really optimized for performance. In a mainframe system application performance (TPS, for instance) is optimized; Additionally, a mainframe provides awesome levels of I/O bandwidth (and I/O connectivity to devices) with it's CPU performance (remember that a mainframe maximizes single thread performance). Such an operating system doesn't really belong at the desktop; It funny that VMS (actually a clone named NT) is _almost_ able to be used there, but VMS has minicomputer (user centrist) roots mixed into it's architecture. Unix is written *around* the user, wrapping him(her) in a wonderfully responsive security blanket. Mainframes barely recognize a user's existence and do their best to provide services but they aren't really personalized. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: mpaque@next.com (Mike Paquette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Dynamic flag in 4.0 and 4.1 Date: 13 Feb 1997 20:52:42 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 21 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5dvuuq$3fs@news.next.com> References: <5dvfhi$s0i@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: mpaque@next.com NNTP-Posting-Host: moviola.next.com In article <5dvfhi$s0i@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) writes: > How can DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH be used when launching an app from > Workspace? Because Workspace isn't a shell subprocess, there doesn't seem to > be an easy way to set DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH for Workspace-launched apps. > > I understand how to use DYLD_FRAMEWORK_PATH from gdb or when launching an > app from a shell. But the dyld man page doesn't state that these > restrictions apply. The assorted DYLD environment variables are strictly for debugging purposes. They aren't available to apps running from the Workspace, or when running as the superuser (root) for obvious reasons. -- Mike Paquette I don't speak for my employer, and they don't speak for me. "May you live in interesting times." - Old Chinese curse #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Where's NSSound in OpenStep? Date: 13 Feb 1997 22:06:10 GMT Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc. Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5e038i$s5q@sjx-ixn7.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: nospam@spammers.suck.com NNTP-Posting-Host: sdx-ca23-54.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Feb 13 2:06:10 PM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(n) From a casual poking around the OpenStep section of NeXT's on-line documentation archive, I haven't seen any references to the Sound object (or NSSound, I presume, in OpenStep). Has it disappeared? Is someone else maintaining it now? Just Curious, -- Mark Trombino mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (NEXTMail, MIME Mail okay) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 13 Feb 97 13:56:26 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 49 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-26-38.access.one.net In-reply-to: shess@one.net's message of 6 Feb 97 14:01:59 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5254 comp.sys.next.programmer:22693 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: All of this makes me wonder if someone has been working on a method dispatch facility like those described in Karel Driesen's papers. Haven't had time to do this, but I'll probably try it. David Stes, http://www.can.nl/~stes/, has something out there called the Portable Object Compiler, which is an Objective-C to C preprocessor. I'll probably be experimenting which that, once I have a clearer understanding of what I'm doing ... Meanwhile, David has implemented inline caching for that runtime (v1.1.6 and later, I think). Now each dispatch site has a cache for the message previously sent from that site. Just to see what the difference is for the "hit" case, I wrote a simple program that calls [anObject self] 100 million times. The times were: NeXT runtime, 2.5.8 :29 objcrt 1.1.1 1:33 objcrt 1.1.7 :46 objcrt 1.1.8 :27 direct call to imp :11 The difference between 1.1.1 and 1.1.7 is the addition of the inline caching the dispatched method. The difference between 1.1.7 and 1.1.8 is that 1.1.8 has the inline cache hit literally inlined, not in a function. The last line is for comparison against calling the implementation of the method directly. Note that this is a completely artificial benchmark. It's testing a _single_ method dispatch on a single object with a very simple implementation, repeatedly. Real code is not so easy :-). Specifically, you'll likely have lots of cache misses (the object you're sending the message to can vary by class), and more complicated methods (in a real program, method dispatch should be less than %10 of the execution time). This does bring up a couple points for future testing. Why is NeXT's dispatch so fast? Do they cache the tuple between calls to objc_msgSend()? [That should be easy enough to ferret out.] [Now, toss in inline methods and an optimizing compiler, and this would take 0:00 execution time :-).] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Referencing externs from loaded bundle on OpenStep/NT - how? Date: 13 Feb 1997 19:37:55 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 29 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5dvqij$pl9@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Feb 13 1:37:55 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca (Brian Schack) wrote: > We have an application consisting of a main program, and several > bundles which are loaded at run time using [NSBundle initWithPath:]. > The bundles reference several global variables in the main program. > OPENSTEP 4.1 Release Notes (Entry Number 2473, Reference 72308) talks > about exporting symbols from Frameworks (I think - it isn't very > clear), but not how to import symbols into bundles. > > OPENSTEP/NT Developer FAQ (Entry Number 2462) also talks about > exporting symbols from frameworks, but once again not how to import > symbols into bundles. > > I've trying prefacing the 'extern int global' with a > __declspec(dllimport), and the 'int global = 42' with a > __declspec(dllexport), and various other combinations, all with no > luck. Has anybody experienced this problem and know how to deal with > it? One approach that works for us is to avoid defining global variables in the main executable if these variables need to be exported to loadable modules (seems like a really lame limitation of the WIN32 linker or whatever is to blame). Instead, we define all exported variables in loadable modules and import them into the main executable or into other loadable modules even when doing so doesn't seem to make sense. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 OPENSTEP/NT Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 19:02:25 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 83 Message-ID: <5dvog1$2bh$4@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: jon@subsequent.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22695 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61549 comp.sys.mac.system:199378 In <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: > John 'kzin' Rudd wrote: > Okay. My beef is with the Macintosh's usage of the creator code, > not the existence of one. > Ok.. I agree that the implimentation used by the Mac could cause problems in a multi-user environment. But I dont' think the concept in general would necessarily cause problems. Lets hope this is one of those things they think through well. > > However, each user should have the option to substitute some other app, > > in case they don't want to use the actual applications creator.. and > > that list of preferences would probably be best called "Prefered > > applications" or something.. which would read something like: > > > > I prefer Painter for Photoshop apps. > > Photoshop documents, you mean? > Yeah, sorry :-} > > Which would probably be mapped like "Photoshop.app -> Painter.app", > > and thus when you launched a file created by Photoshop, it would > > bring up Painter. :-} > > The problem with this arrangement is that it creates a potentially > large set of mappings, especially when you get into mapping to > both creator and type. It seems more useful to just map types, > and not creators. I think I mostly agree with you. I care more about what application to use by its type and/or its name (for example, I want my icons, which are tiffs, to open with icon builder. I want all the rest of my tiffs to open with OmniImage.. I could do this by file creator.. or if I name all of my icons name.icon.tiff, I could do it by file name.. But it's impossible to do it by file type alone -- you have to resort to manually dragging to the app or opening the app first). The Mappings could get quite large, but I'm willing to force the computer to take a little more time if it saves me a little more time.. that IS the point of computing, afterall. A preferences setup like: Default to [Creator, Type, Name Extensions] for determining Application to Launch for documents. (perhaps a draggable ordered list, like the preferences choice for languages) for Creator, a list of "created by this application, use this application instead" _or_ a "defer to next heuristic" option ("If it's created by Netscape, defer to the file's type for determining what to do") for Type, like with Nextstep now you have a list of apps that handle that type, and you pick which is the primary choice. And you have an option to defer to another heuristic for a given file type. for name extension, it's exactly like file type (except you're mapping by a different datum). When the GUI or "open" cli program try to find the app to launch for a document, it counts the number of deferals -- if you get 3 deferals, you've got a loop, and a dialogue should show up saying so (perhaps with the icons for the creator, the apps that handle that file type, and the apps that handle that file name extension... so you can just pick to launch one now). That's just my idea :-} yes, it could get large.. but with a good hashing algorythm, it shouldn't take TOO much overhead... and like I said, the point of the computer is to save me time, not the otherway around. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 14:19:31 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5dvpg3$kif@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22696 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61550 comp.sys.mac.system:199379 In article , Stephen Peters wrote: > Which begs the question to a die-hard Unix user like myself, if you > add the notion of a `preferred application', what use is the `creator' > designation other than bookkeeping? As a fallback to a known good > application? Because some users (i.e., many Mac users) _like_ opening files by creator, rather than by type. I don't see much of a problem with adding a creator field to the filesystem, other than the fact that remote mounts to non-Rhapsody hosts will likely not be able to see it, or may munge it, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread. (Thus, a document-opening scheme based solely on creator fails in a heterogenous networked environment.) However, if there is _also_ a type-based preferred application scheme like NeXT uses, then you can choose to use either scheme, or use the preferred-application scheme in a remote-mount situation in which creator information is not available. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!cloudbreak.rs.itd.umich.edu!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!uwvax!news From: Steve Barnet <"mailer-daemon"@[127.0.0.1]> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 16:31:26 -0600 Organization: UW-Madison Space Science and Engineering Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.ssec.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4c) CC: barnet Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22697 comp.sys.mac.system:199389 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61553 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4081 Ian Joyner wrote: > But in this case I expect the OS to alert the user to decide to close > down certain processes. This decision is beyond the operating system > to make, and it is certainly far beyond the scope of an application > program. Which user? Your assumption will only hold for a desktop system. Furthermore, there's no guarantee there will be a user. What about systems that sit in a closet and sling bytes (we call them servers)? Having a message pop up that says "A program can't get enough memory, which of these 500 processes should die" is not acceptable as 1) No one's at the box 2) who decides what dies? - If any Joe User can go postal because his program has asked for too much memory then we have a completely unacceptable security problem. The sysadmin will not likely be sitting in front of the box - what now? > So what is the application program going to do because a > malloc has failed due to environmental factors beyond its control? > Fail gracefully: log an error message (in a logfile or errorfile) and exit. The alternative you describe assumes (at least) two things: there's a user at the box all the time, the user at the box is able to make an acceptable decision. In multi-user environments those assumptions simply don't hold. Best, ---Steve -- Steve Barnet--System Administrator steve.barnet@ssec.wisc.edu UW-Madison Space Science and Engineering Center I'm not a rocket scientist, but I play one on TV (608)263-2268 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.physics.uiowa.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!usenet From: Bill Keller Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 01:18:33 -0600 Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Lines: 36 Message-ID: <3302C049.15C8@okstate.edu> References: <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <5duhe2$49a$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: stf-dialup03.cvm.okstate.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Keller (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Priority: Normal marcel@sysyem.de wrote: > > In article <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> Charles William Swiger > writes: > [...] > > Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' > > when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS > > should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These > > two statements are mutually contradictory. > > > > How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying > > the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors > > occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting > > the process decide for itself what should be done? > > Well, the OS should open an on-line connection to the nearest computer > retailer, order more DRAM and put the process to sleep until the memory > has been made availabel. :-) > > Marcel That, coupled with the fact that Apple should write an operating system so that I never have to check return codes (or handle exceptions. yuck!) again. I can just code away, avoid "cluttering up" my application with an error checking at all. "File not found"? No problem, the OS will handle it! "Out of memory"? Why exit gracefully, the OS will handle it! "File is locked by another user"? Who cares, open it anyway! Even if the OS handled errors like that, it would STILL have to inform the application in some manner, that the operation failed. The app would STILL have to have code that responds to the information recieved, and you're STILL in the same position you are right now. -- Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu) --------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.radio.cz!CESspool!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:24:53 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 57 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:199400 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61559 comp.sys.next.programmer:22699 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Peter Moller@dna.lth.se >> Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the >> timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file when >> you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified version. >> Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care about that >> timestamp? > > Easily; quite often I try to figure out which version of a file or a > program is the oldest and the created time stamp is very handy in those > situations. The last-modified timestamp serves that purpose better than the creation timestamp does. If the file has never been editted, the last-modified timestamp is identical to the creation timestamp. If the file has been changed, the last-modified timestamp will tell you which version is oldest whereas the creation timestamp does not. Try again. > I admit that this is often a problem when I move files around > nad/or have the "same" file on several places: my hard disk at work, my > file server at work, a floppy on the way home or my hard disk at home; but > there are other instances. When I have a small utility program that doesn't > have proper version information and I am to determine which of two versions > is the oldest. Where is the problem? Simply copying, or making links to a file shouldn't change the last-modified timestamp-- just the last-accessed. > I see no reason not to have a created time stamp. I have > cursed the unix file system more than once for not having such a time stamp. Really? I've been using Unix for about a decade, and I've can't ever recall needing the creation timestamp for anything that I wasn't already going to use a RCS for, anyway. >>Maybe. Currently, many systems keep track of busy files by maintaining >>state in the kernel, and various locking mechanisms like lockf(), >>flock(), etc exist. These provide semantics for doing things like >>shared and exclusive locks, or for locking sections of files instead of >>locking the entire thing. > > Well, maybee there are solutions for this in the unix world, but then I must > have stumbled on the bad implementations of them. An easy example is the > mailtool in OpenWindows. It's not working as desired. How so? More information is needed for me to respond.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!seicom.de!flop.schwaben.de!news From: hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM (Holger Hoffstaette) Subject: Re: templates X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Sender: news@flop.schwaben.de Organization: NeXT Ghetto People feat. St.Eve Message-ID: References: <970211105633.198AAFgS.wayne@pareto> <5dqm0o$c1a@news.orst.edu> X-Nntp-Posting-Host: flop Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 19:34:10 GMT Lines: 20 C. David Shaffer wrote: > Hmm, transcript from my session included below. Compiled and ran just > fine. Maybe a different version of libg++? Hmm.. hhoff>otool -L test test: /usr/lib/libg++.A.dylib (compatibility version 37.0.0, current version 39.0.0) /NextLibrary/Frameworks/System.framework/Versions/A/System (compatibility version 1.0.0, current version 117.13.0) hhoff> This is a 4.1 system upgraded from 3.3pl1, and all the new stuff seems to be in place - PB, gdb & Co. work fine. Anybody with more luck ? Holger #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!nef.ens.fr!allege!jalon From: jalon@allege.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 13 Feb 1997 21:39:18 GMT Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5e01m6$pdq@nef.ens.fr> References: <5dt1v1$j6$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> <3302B98C.4590@okstate.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: allege.ens.fr Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22701 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61561 comp.sys.mac.system:199410 In article <3302B98C.4590@okstate.edu>, Bill Keller wrote: >I read that Apple is not going to use Mach 3.0 for just this reason. They want to stick with something they >know works, rather than waste alot of time to implement something that might not. ??? Mach 3.0 works !!... and when you see how NS (and Openstep) works, it's. maybe, one of the best choice to do Raphsody ! The real problem is that Mach is a bit "slow". --Julien -- Julien Jalon | Ecole normale superieure jalon@clipper.ens.fr | 45 rue d'Ulm http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/ | 75230 Paris Cedex 05 | FRANCE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!handma.apple.com!user From: handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 17:11:51 -0800 Organization: Apple Computer Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <5dtd3v$pc2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <2938717302@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> NNTP-Posting-Host: handma.apple.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.7 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22702 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61570 comp.sys.mac.system:199430 In article <2938717302@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>, Bruce@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult) wrote: > nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) writes: > > In article <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov>, urban@cobra.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael P Urban) wrote: > > > > > Out-of-band data associated with files (Finder information, resource > > > fork, and perhaps other things) could be added in a general way to > > > a Unix file system; for all I know, the NeXT folk may already have > > > done this. It would certainly be a more general solution than the > > > traditional Unix reliance on "magic numbers" and similar hackery. > > > > What NeXT needs to do is ressurect its object-oriented database > > filesystem project. Allows for the association of arbitrary attributes > > with files, or so I assume from what I remember hearing about it. > > It might pay to look at the work done for the OS/2 file system. Each file has the ability > to have out-of-band "extended attributes" (I think that's what they call them) of arbitrary > number and size. > > It's all rather like a Mac resource fork, but I think a bit more general. > Finally, Bruce, your restore my faith that there are some people out there looking further than their own noses. Actually, (at least in older versions of HPFS) there are rather strong size constraints on what can go into the extended attributes. However NTFS has unlimited extended attributes which could trivially be used to hold creator/type info, multiple forks etc. The one difference, not at the file system but at the higher layer, is the lack of conventions on the meanings of these attributes and a Resource Manager to deal with resources. Maynard -- My opinion only #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:02:00 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 48 Message-ID: <3303B988.4E8F@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22703 comp.sys.mac.system:199433 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61572 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4082 msoori wrote: > > In article <33026799.D07@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote: > > > > Under any Unix, when a processes tries to open() a file, it can receive > > > any of about a dozen errors, including EACCESS (file not found, or bad > > > permissions). There are not fatal errors, and the OS does _not_ kill > > > the process when they occur. It's up to the process to implement > > > appropriate error handling upon receiving these errors. > > > > And this is wrong. An OS should handle many more of these common errors. > > How should the OS know what the application intended to do with the file? > What if the application implemeted a sort of virtual mem scheme or an > application preferences file that the user has no idea about, and if the > OS cant find/create it it should asks the user to find it??? This is > application domain not the OS. What you say makes sense for some files > that the user is aware of, but in genereal the OS dosent know what a > file's intended purpose is. You are correct that there are several different uses for files, which need to be identified. However all uses can be designed into an OS, and a consistent treatment can be designed. For example, there is a different treatment for a file that the application expects to be there, and one that it might optionally create if it is not present. Or a file might be optional, in which case the application might continue happily without it being there, with your preferences example it just uses defaults. Yes the application will code for these cases, but my point is there is a lot more that OSs can and should do. If the file is mandatory, what can the application accomplish? The user or some other process must make the file present. In fact that is one way of synchronising processes. Now before I gave Unisys A Series as a case example of an OS where all these cases have been considered, and a very consistent means of handling such resource problems was implemented over 20 years ago. Unfortunately, I was then accused of bias in a not very polite fashion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:32:22 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 194 Message-ID: <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:199436 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61573 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4084 comp.sys.next.programmer:22704 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > >> Under NEXTSTEP, when you start running low on disk space, the Workspace > >> will pop-up an alert panel warning you that disk space is low. When you > >> run critically low on space, you'll get another warning suggesting > >> rebooting in order to free up space by shrinking the swapfile. > > > > Rebooting!!! > > That's what I said, yes. In general, this only happens when someone's > system was very low on disk space to start with. If you make sure that > you've got 100 MB free where you swap to, you're not going to have > problems. Well rebooting is an admission of failure in the OS, either by implementation but even worse by design, and in this case it sounds like it's by design. > >> Under any Unix, when a processes tries to open() a file, it can receive > >> any of about a dozen errors, including EACCESS (file not found, or bad > >> permissions). There are not fatal errors, and the OS does _not_ kill > >> the process when they occur. It's up to the process to implement > >> appropriate error handling upon receiving these errors. > > > > And this is wrong. An OS should handle many more of these common errors. > > Handle how? Specificly what should the OS do when open() fails instead > of returning EACCESS? I explained that in my original post... to explain, the OS is responsible for maintaining the environment and resources within which an application runs. If the operating system is not handling such common cases and expecting an application to handle them, it is not providing a very good environment, and so its whole raison d'etre for existence is in question. > >> As for "memory short" condition, what precisely does this mean under an > >> OS which provides a good virtual memory implementation? Normally, there > >> are two problems which can occur: running low on disk space because of > >> swapfile size, or excessive paging due to a lack of physical memory. > >> > >> The former condition will cause malloc() to return NULL and set ENOMEM > >> (again, the OS does _not_ kill the process, and it's up to the process > >> to detect and respond to such a condition appropriately). [ ... ] > > > > But in this case I expect the OS to alert the user to decide to close > > down certain processes. This decision is beyond the operating system > > to make, and it is certainly far beyond the scope of an application > > program. So what is the application program going to do because a > > malloc has failed due to environmental factors beyond its control? > > I assume you're just talking about the first case, where malloc() fails. > Polite applications warn the user that they couldn't get the memory > they needed, and they abort the operation being attempted, and return to > their main event loop. Since this is a case that should be handled by every running task, why burden the application programmer with this task: make it common to the OS. The whole reason for frameworks is to remove this kind of burden from the programmer. However, when you think about it, this should not even be in the frameworks, it should be in the OS. That way, there is a common look and feel guaranteed for all common exceptions. > Furthermore, under NEXTSTEP, running out of swapspace (which is what > causes malloc() to fail) will usually cause the WorkSpace to provide a > "disk space low" warning, as I described above. What else do you want > the OS to do? We're not disagreeing, you're on the right track! It's exactly what should happen, so that the user can change into operator mode and clean up the disk problem. Then the application should continue, quite oblivious to the fact that some problem had occurred. > >> Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' > >> when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS > >> should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These > >> two statements are mutually contradictory. > > > > How are they contradictory? I'm saying: don't kill my program, and don't > > hand me an exception before the OS has a good attempt at handling it > > itself. > > Killing the process is bad, agreed (although if you're deadlocked, > you've basicly got no good alternatives)-- it's a poor general solution > to an exceptional condition. In general, the OS shouldn't do anything > when confronting an exception that's not appropriate for all processes. > The OS should report exceptions and let the process decide what should > be done, instead of having the OS spend time and resources attempting to > handle the exception itself. So time and resources are spent in the application to handle the exception. This makes no difference there. But it does make a difference that every application programmer must spend time and great expense developing code to handle exceptions because OSs are in general not sufficiently designed. > You've acknowledged that the OS should not perform inappropriate actions > when encountering an exception since you gave the specific example of > killing processes, but you don't appear to realize that your suggestions > that the OS perform some other action beyond reporting the exceptional > condition means that the OS will do things which are inappropriate for > some tasks-- thus, the contradiction. No, you don't make sense here: you are attempting to contrive some contradition. If the OS reports the problem, it is asking the user for some help, without having to bother the application. And the kinds of conditions I am talking about are problems with resources, the exact entity that it is the OSs job to manage. In order to prove your asserted contradiction you would have to show what is inappropriate for the OS to handle in any of the example scenarios I have given. > >> How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying > >> the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors > >> occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting > >> the process decide for itself what should be done? > > > > Yes, because many of these things are so common. Why clutter > > applications just to make up for deficiencies in the OS? > > You're dodging the question. It's remarkably easy to claim that the OS > is deficient, but it's much harder to define alternative behavior that > the OS should perform that's generally useful for all processes. Um, I think I answered yes... how is that "dodging the question"? I have also defined what the OS should do. What more do you want, apart from an argument and a boring Internet flame war? Please stick to the substance. > >> [ ... ] > >>> (I think we should all run down to our Unisys A Series shop to > >>> learn how a real operating system works, they have been doing > >>> this for decades, and application development and system operations > >>> is far simpler). > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are > >>> Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are > >>> i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys > >>> | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > >> Does anyone besides me detect a common bias between the last paragraph > >> and the .signature? > > > > Not at all, I am giving a concrete example of where what I am talking > > about is put into practice, with significant simplification in > > systems operations, and substantially reduced applications development > > effort. If I was really biased, I would not share these observations > > with Apple, would I? > > The two aaren't mutually exclusive by any means. Right now, we've got > someone from Unisys who is extolling the virtues of Unisys as "a real > OS", and slamming other operating systems as "technically deficient". No, take out your emotionally provokative tone like "slamming". I have made some points and given examples, I can't see that who I work for disqualifies me from this. Remember, Unisys is a large Unix vendor as well, so stay off your high horse as your comments are just silly. You are being personal, please keep it to technical points. > If you could substantiate the claims you've made, I'll happily withdraw > my claim of bias. However, so far I've seen absolutely nothing of the > sort-- you've made claims that the OS should provide error handling for > conditions which I consider to be better handled within the applications. > > > If Apple wants to adopt NeXT and Mach, then it had better be fully > > aware of the technical deficiencies of Unix, or Apple will lose its > > edge of superiority. > > What "technical deficiencies" are you talking about, and precisely what > "edge of superiority" did Apple and MacOS have over the NEXTSTEP (which > is a Unix) operating system? Because MacOS made computers useable. There are good things about Nextstep, but you should be careful about inheriting all the problems of Unix. > In case you've forgotten, the reason Apple purchased NeXT was to remedy > the technical deficiencies of the MacOS because Apple tried and failed > to create their own replacement OS (q.v. Copland and Taligent). This is quite reasonable. I think using the Mach Kernel and Openstep environment could be quite good. However, they should assemble the components carefully, and not just accept that Unix is the best thing since sliced bread, because it isn't. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 14 Feb 1997 01:25:58 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 86 Message-ID: <5e0ev6$qje@news.bu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> <5dqfig$pm8@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22705 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61574 comp.sys.mac.system:199438 Stephen Peters (speters@cygnus.com) wrote: : macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: : > I know you're saying to yourself: "Well, that's their own fault. : > Don't cripple *my* OS to account for dumb users." Yes, I know it : > sounds pretty totalitarian, but that's kinda the Mac way ;) : Which? Totalitarianism or crippling the OS? :-) Err...historically, a little of both ;) : John, I'd like you to close your eyes and imagine something. Suppose : that someone created a Unix daemon which handled the AppleShare : protocol and implemented an HFS-style system on top of NFS. Creating : an `HFS file' actually made two separate files on the disk, one which : was file.data and one which was, perhaps, file.rsrc. Trying to access : the resource fork of the `HFS file' would pull data from the .rsrc, : and vice versa. You could then mount this Unix disk on your Mac just : as if it was an AppleShare'd Mac file system. Also imagine (as long : as we're dreaming here) that they'd worked out most of the bugs. : Honestly now, would you care that it's a Unix box that just looked : like a Mac? Would you notice? Now imagine that the resource forks : were instead held in a system-specific database that the system : maintained and referenced, but the UI remained the same. Do you care? : Will you notice? If I'm on a Mac mounting a Unix volume full of Mac files which are split up this way (which I do daily at work), no, I don't care. But if it's *my* computer that has all these fragmented files on it's HD, I start to worry. And if there's not just a single .rsrc file associated with each file, but a whole slew of support files, things get hairy. Actually, I think you (and many other NeXT users) have sold me on the concept of app wrappers. Just today I found myself defending them in a discussion with (of all things) a GeoWorks user (GeoWorks uses a Mac-type loadable resource structure combined with system-wide loadable libraries). So I'll concede that .app wrappers may be a perfectly viable solution. The only remaining reservation I have is about the whole process of installing apps and then moving them after they're installed. Is there any possibility of paths getting messed up? : Right there, that's the difference between implementation and : interface. Of course they can be separated, and in real life, too. But my statement that the UI and implementation can't be separated referred more to this concept: no mater what the UI is, if the implementation is such that the UI is not *necessary*, then the majority of users and software vendors will cavalierly ignore it. I'm basing this theory on the DOS, Unix, and Windows practices of requiring or asking users to edit text files themselves in certain situations just because it's easier to ask that than to provide a more GUi-ish way to do it. Perhaps it's more of a cultural issue than a technical one. I'm not sure how common that type of practice is in the NeXT culture. But a Mac user *never* expects to be asked to do anything more than point, click, and drag. And any software package that asks him to do more than this during installation, maintenence, and use will be looked upon as a poor piece of work (smart comment about word processors omitted). To get back to the "totalitarian issue," it's the traditionally heavy-handed Human Interface Guidelines that Apple demands (although they spell it "suggests") you use which have kept Macs ahead of the pack in user friendliness. Because, left to their own devices, software vendors will do what's easiest for them, and force users to train themselves to to "get used to" the hacks they slap together. An example is the very first round of Mac apps from Microsoft which, as Steve Jobs put it, "were *terrible*" (emphasis his). They had to be scolded by Apple and sent back to the workbench several times before they did it "the Mac way." And this happened *with* file formats and conventions that discouraged roaming from the straight path. Speaking of which, I think I'm off-topic at this point. A very similar discussion (file systems, formats, etc.) is going on in the Be Developer's mailing list (along with about 15 other discussions ;) It seems like a hotly debated issue for any emerging OS, Be or Rhapsody. -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:44:29 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 51 Message-ID: <3303B56D.6AA0@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22706 comp.sys.mac.system:199460 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61581 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4085 I think I dropped into the wrong thread here. I was not intending to havea Next/Unix vs Mac debate, merely to point out that most OSs should do more than they do in terms of exception handling. David Young wrote: > > In comp.sys.next.programmer Ian Joyner wrote: > : Yes, because many of these things are so common. Why clutter > : applications > : just to make up for deficiencies in the OS? > > "Out of memory" is not something an OS can dictate an action for to an > application. Trust me, when a UNIX box says out of memory, it's tried > absolutely everything it can. Unquestionably, things will degrade, but it is the mode of degradation. At least on Microsoft systems, they give the user the chance to "close applications" when memory is low. That's about all you can do. Unfortunately, most people are used to teaching or development environments where "Out of memory" means a bug in some program. However, in a production environment, either large scale or PC use, out of memory means the machine has been overloaded by the users. Thus the users must clean up. There is nothing much the application can do about it at this stage. > : If Apple wants to adopt NeXT and Mach, then it had better be fully > : aware of the technical deficiencies of Unix, or Apple will lose its > : edge of superiority. > > Are you *insane*? Apple's current OS has the *worst* memory management > architecture of ANY operating system since the advent of the MMU. Period. No, I am not defending MacOS: it has problems. That is not my point. The point is not just to rush into Unix, as Unix also has deficiencies, and these deficiencies are in useability, where Mac has always showed it's strengths. The last thing Mac users want to be is Unix gurus, and to run a healthy Unix system you have to be. This is not just important for home users, but for companies as well who want to save money on their very costly operations (hence the drive to NCs). > Whereas UNIX (and Mach) have one of the best. And Apple should use the good parts of Mach, but not just blindly accept the deficiencies of Unix. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 12:21:54 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 113 Message-ID: <3303BE32.2D7C@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <5dth6r$2c3@zoodle.robin.de> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22707 comp.sys.mac.system:199469 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61583 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4086 Ulrich Grepel wrote: > > On 02/12/97, Charles William Swiger wrote: > >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > >Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > >> This leads to many applications having superfluous code to > >> handle these exception conditions. This is very common code which > >> really should be in the OS. > > > >Above you complain that the OS 'just kill[s] the program straight away' > >when certain error conditions occur, and now you suggest that the OS > >should handle those error conditions instead of the application! These > >two statements are mutually contradictory. > > > >How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying > >the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors > >occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting > >the process decide for itself what should be done? > > Yes, exactly. The rest is more Re: Ian Joyner's posting > > If you've got a situation where an operator is able to provide the right > tape containing the wanted file, then this is not really an error condition at > all. It's just the operating system stalling the application and checking > whether the user can do something to help. > > I don't know anything about Unisys systems, but I do know a bit about MVS and > VSE. Basically, if you cannot provide the tape needed by your batch programs, > most of the times the only useful option is to kill the job. Manually. Most > JCLs or batch programs I've seen do not provide appropriate error checking. > Imagine an MVS or VSE job for sending an email. The jcl tries to locate the > equivalent of a .signature file. You don't have one, and don't want to create > one. Now what could the OS do? Ask the user for the file? Well... I don't want > a .signature file. Kill the job? Well... a .sig is not vitally important for > an email message. Tell the application? See, that's what most OSes do in such > circumstances. > > And don't tell me that having the following code is better than the code > following the following code: > > --------8<-------- > if (file-is-accessible) > read-file > else > message("file not found") > -------->8-------- > read-file > if (error) > message("file not found") > --------8<-------- > > Actually, the opposite is true. In the first example (which is what you - or > rather the eiffel guys - wanted to use) no care is taken of the fact that > between checking the accessability of the file and the file access itself > there's nothing happening to the file - in another thread or process, on > another CPU or even computer (making it "another process" - namely the NFS > daemon or equivalent). So the first code example would even have to look like Considering the mail signature file, surely the code should be if signature_file.present then end that's it, no file not found messages needed. In the case where the application must have the file, the file loading should be taken care of between the OS and the operator. Let's work it out contractually. The application issues a read on a file that must be read (it's a non-optional file). This contracts the OS to read the file no matter what. If the file is not there (along any of the search paths that the OS knows about), the operator/user must be informed. Since the OS has been contracted to read the file, it should contact the operator "Help I'm having problems fulfilling this contract, what should I do now". Even better still it suggests to the operator several actions: 1) Kill the program (really do raise an exception), 2) make the file present, 3) tell me an alternative file, 4) perhaps change the read status to optional, etc. > A colleague of mine also calls all non-mainframe operating systems "Nintendo > systems". I don't agree, all OSs should be well designed, but unfortunately, many OSs lack features that the mainframe people take for granted, and more than that expect of operating systems. I am saying that more of these features should be implemented in low end machines (and especially Unix!). > And I don't think app development and system operations is much easier on old > style mainframe systems. At least not if you want to provide the same comfort > for the user. Most modern systems cope *without* a system operator. They > *only* have a user. That includes PCs, Macs and even NeXT boxes. It might > include quite a few other Unix boxes as well. But administrating a mainframe > is a full time job. Most of the times for more than one person. Be careful not to characterise things as "old style mainframes" and "modern systems", you have accepted too much of the artificial lines drawn by the marketing types and journalists. As far as I am concerned all these things are converging. I'll probably get accused of bias again, but an A Series takes far less operational support than your average Unix box. Small A Series require no operators at all. Don't judge these systems by what you know about IBM, it just ain't the same. Mainframes are not necessarily big ugly old OSs. But A Series aren't necessarily mainframes, just a well designed OS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!btnet-feed2!theplanet.net!knews.uk0.vbc.net!vbcnet-gb!btnet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!arclight.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!kithrup.com!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: sef@kithrup.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cmsg cancel Date: 14 Feb 1997 06:03:12 GMT Control: cancel Message-ID: Sender: scanning@XXX1324noreply.com (Cyber Services) X-Cancelled-By: sef@kithrup.com Approved: sef@kithrup.com Lines: 1 Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 14 Feb 1997 04:56:06 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5e0r96$i86$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22708 comp.sys.mac.system:199499 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61593 In article , Scott Hess wrote: \ But a created timestamp doesn't solve the problem you asked to be \ solved. In the following situation: \ cp file1 /a/file1 \ cp file1 /b/file1 \ edit /a/file1 \ Which file is created first, /a/file1 or /b/file1? /a/file1. Which \ file is the most recently modified version? /a/file1. In the Mac world, copy operations preserve the timestamps of the original. Thus, in this case, both files would have the same creation date, and :a:file1 would have a more recent modification date. \ Does anyone have a better example of why a created timestamp is \ needed? One theory is that it helps distinguish different edits of the same file from similarly-named files with wholly different contents. Apple's File Assistant synchronization software, uses creation date to help insure that it's dealing with two different versions of the same file rather than two different files with the same name. (Actually, I wish this feature could be turned off, or at least limited. When I run a file through LaTeX, the .aux file is always "re-created" rather than modified. Thus, my .aux files have to be synched by hand or (more often) deleted to make the synch process go smoothly. But I can see situations in which it could be useful.) D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 14 Feb 1997 05:09:22 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5e0s22$iki$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22709 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61594 comp.sys.mac.system:199500 In article , Alan Olson wrote: \ This is not a problem with multiple users, this is a problem with \ using multiple applications to edit the same file. A single \ individual would encounter this problem if he prefered the Photoshop \ tools for some of his work and the Painter tools for the rest. [...] This strikes me as an extraordinarily common situation. Especially with files of type TEXT. \ Sounds like you want file type to determine which application to \ open. That's a valid way of doing things, and in some ways its better \ than using creator codes. On a Mac the problem is there is no \ standardization of type codes (as far as I know). You can't tell the \ format/contents of a file just by looking at the type. There are a \ few types which are widely recognized (e.g., TEXT), but I don't think \ Apple has issued directives saying that files of type XXXX must have \ such and such a format. TEXT is exactly why I like the current system. If I'm editing a web page, I want to open it in Alpha. If it's a SAS program, I may want BBEdit or SAS depending on whether I want to edit it or run it. If it's a text file I've downloaded from the Net, I probably want to open it in Word 5. But if it's a binhexed file, I want to use Stuffit Expander. My solution is drag and drop--I've got a few options (Expander, Word, and BBEdit) installed in DragThing, and most of my other options are available by dragging into the menu bar. When I can, though, I take advantage of creator codes--my web pages are Alpha documents, so the machine "knows" to open them in Alpha. If I were forced to use a system that assigned only one app per file type, TEXT files would drive me up the wall. D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 14 Feb 1997 05:02:42 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5e0rli$ijn$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <1997Feb12.173429.29584@llyene.jpl.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22710 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61595 comp.sys.mac.system:199501 In article , Anton Rang wrote: \ > Creation time information will be necessary for Mac programs, \ Because they already have access to it, so it has to be there to \ preserve backwards compatibility. (Does anyone use it? Probably; but it \ doesn't matter.) Apple's PowerBook File Assistant synchro program uses it... it uses filename, type, creator, and creation date to decide which files "match", and then uses modification date to know which version is the new one. \ > and would doubtless be helpful in some configuration management. \ "Let me find all of the files which were placed on my disk when I \ installed CyberDog and its plug-ins. I want to copy them over to my new \ 20GB hard disk." Not a great example; as with file copies, installers leave the original creation dates on the files. So unless the CyberDog programmers gave all the files the same creation dates, this wouldn't work. \ > Keep in mind that "modified" includes "replaced entirely" as a subset. \ Well, it depends on what you mean by "replaced entirely"...the entire \ contents or the entire file? Certain operations on the Mac "replace" files and thereby change the creation date of what otherwise look like identical files. If you take a file and do a "save as" using the same name and in the same folder, you will usually change the creation date. At least one LaTeX application (Textures) "recreates" .aux files when it typesets. (I know because this plays hell with PowerBook File Assistant.) D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!cdc2.cdc.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!61020d0022ct.concentric.net!user From: glenn@concentric.net.no.spam (Glenn) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:34:30 -0400 Organization: Concentric Internet Services Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 61020d0022ct.concentric.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22711 comp.sys.mac.system:199508 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61597 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4089 In article <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young wrote: > Are you *insane*? Apple's current OS has the *worst* memory management > architecture of ANY operating system since the advent of the MMU. Period. Evidently you haven't done any 16 bit Winderz programming.... glenn@concentric.net.no.spam #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.216.190.5!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!hal.kph.tuwien.ac.at!cs Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <9702132021.AA02677@zaphod> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.0 v146.2) From: Christian Starkjohann Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 21:21:48 +0100 Subject: Re: Referencing externs from loaded bundle on OpenStep/NT - how? Lines: 33 In article schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca (Brian Schack) writes: > We have an application consisting of a main program, and several > bundles which are loaded at run time using [NSBundle initWithPath:]. > The bundles reference several global variables in the main program. > > We've compiled and run the code successfully on NeXT hardware, Solaris > OpenStep, and plain old gcc on a Sun. However, we cannot get it to > work under OpenStep/NT - the main program and the bundle end up > looking at two entirely different bits of memory. Here's a quick > synopsis of the code: > > [code example deleted] > [...] > > I've trying prefacing the 'extern int global' with a > __declspec(dllimport), and the 'int global = 42' with a > __declspec(dllexport), and various other combinations, all with no > luck. Has anybody experienced this problem and know how to deal with > it? I had the same problem. I have tried several combinations of this dllexport/dllimport stuff, too, and I also had no luck with it. I think, exporting globals to DLLs just does not. I "solved" the problem by writing class methods to access the global variables (luckily it was just one global variable...). Bye, Christian. -- Christian Starkjohann or , finger for PGP Public Key. PGP fingerprint: DF FD 40 60 91 6A 14 1C CD 2C E9 07 38 AE CB 4E #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!205.216.190.5!news1.isp.net!ispnet!antigone!hal.kph.tuwien.ac.at!cs Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Organization: Antigone Press gateway, San Francisco Return-Path: Message-ID: <9702132035.AA02710@zaphod> Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.0 v146.2) From: Christian Starkjohann Date: Thu, 13 Feb 97 21:35:54 +0100 Subject: Using NSConditionLock et al Lines: 25 Hi, I want to use an NSConditionLock (or any other NSLocking class) to protect the instance variables of objects in a multithreaded environment. The NSConditionLock should have been an instance variable of each such object. But then I found this sentence in the documentation of each NSLocking class (quote from "NSConditionLock.rtfd"): An application can have multiple NSConditionLock objects, each protecting different sections of code. However, these objects must be created before the application becomes multithreaded. Does that mean that I have to know how many locks I will need before I fork the first thread? Should I allocate a certain amount (say 100 or 1000) instances of NSConditionLock before forking a thread just in case I need them later? And does anybody know why it should be dangerous to allocate locks in a multithreaded environment? Thanks for any insights! Bye, Christian. -- Christian Starkjohann or , finger for PGP Public Key. PGP fingerprint: DF FD 40 60 91 6A 14 1C CD 2C E9 07 38 AE CB 4E #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.daimi.aau.dk!not-for-mail From: Kresten Krab Thorup Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 14 Feb 1997 10:51:04 +0100 Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. of Aarhus Univ. Lines: 37 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: california.daimi.aau.dk X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.33 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5256 comp.sys.next.programmer:22714 shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > .... Just to see what the > difference is for the "hit" case, I wrote a simple program that calls > [anObject self] 100 million times. The times were: > > NeXT runtime, 2.5.8 :29 > objcrt 1.1.1 1:33 > objcrt 1.1.7 :46 > objcrt 1.1.8 :27 > direct call to imp :11 > > This does bring up a couple points for future testing. Why is NeXT's > dispatch so fast? Do they cache the tuple between calls > to objc_msgSend()? [That should be easy enough to ferret out.] The NeXT messenger is so fast because someone spend *months* optimizing it for each specific hardware platform. It has a linear hash table cache in each class which contains (SEL,IMP) pairs, using "(SEL & (2^n-1))" as hash function. (You can easily reverse engineer the algorithm using the headerfiles.) This is reasonably fast because of the simple arithmetics involved, and because the hash search typically touches just one (hardware) cache line. The big speedup however, comes because the cache lookup is carefully hand-tuned assembler, which takes such things as cache line alignment and multiple issue pipeline into consideration. With NEXTSTEP 4, the runtime also implements a new multi thread support scheme which doesn't use an explicit mutex. This even speeds up the non-multi threaded case because it doensn't have to check the Mt flag. -- Kresten _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ | | _ _ _ __ | |_ / _ \ _| | __ (_)_ _ _(_) __ __ _ _ _| | | _ | |/ | '_|_ \| ' / _ / ` ||_ \| | ' ' | | |_ \ |_ \| | | / ` | |/ | | <| | / . | | | \__( (| / _ | | | | | |_/ _ / _ | | |( (| | < |_|\_|_| \_,_|_,_/\___/\_,_\__,_|_|_|_|_|_(_)__,_\__,_\_,_(_)_,_|_|\_| #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.174.65.41!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!03-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!news.tuwien.ac.at!news From: rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Robert F Tobler) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 14 Feb 1997 10:32:21 GMT Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria Lines: 28 Distribution: comp Message-ID: <5e1evl$ql@news.tuwien.ac.at> References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ray.cg.tuwien.ac.at X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: shess@one.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5257 comp.sys.next.programmer:22715 In Scott Hess wrote: > In article , > This does bring up a couple points for future testing. Why is NeXT's > dispatch so fast? Do they cache the tuple between calls > to objc_msgSend()? [That should be easy enough to ferret out.] > > [Now, toss in inline methods and an optimizing compiler, and this > would take 0:00 execution time :-).] You could also have a look a the GNU implementation of the Objective-C dispatch. In a real-world test with an Objective-C raytracer I get 10% speedup when I run the gcc-2.7.2 compiled version when compared to Next's gcc-2.5.8 version. (Of course this might also be caused by better general optimizations in gcc-2.7.2, you might want to include gcc in you simple comparison.) Anyway, the GNU implementation is available in source code, so you do not need to dig into assembly language: If gcc-2.7.2.1 is installed, see function: static inline void* sarray_get(struct sarray* array, sidx index) in: /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/i386-next-nextstep3/2.7.2.1/include/objc/sarray.h ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Robert F. Tobler - tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932 Institute of Computer Graphics - mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at Vienna University of Technology - http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 14 Feb 97 11:17:00 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22716 comp.sys.mac.system:199523 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61603 shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >But a created timestamp doesn't solve the problem you asked to be >solved. In the following situation: > cp file1 /a/file1 > cp file1 /b/file1 > edit /a/file1 >Which file is created first, /a/file1 or /b/file1? /a/file1. Which >file is the most recently modified version? /a/file1. They both have the same created timestamp! Yes, /a/file1 is the most recent changed, so? Did I ever say that I want the created time stamp to *replace* the last changed time stamp??? I honestly don't get the big problem with having a created time stamp. Let's say I have this neat unix script, and I want to see if this script is the one I wrote from scratch, or the one that is a hack on a hack on a hack, then time created is invaluable! >Pretend that /a is actually your machine at work, and /b is actually >your machine at home. You look on the proxy for your home machine (a >Zip disk, say), and see that the file1 on your work disk was created >before the file1 on the Zip disk, and copy the file from the Zip to >your work disk, overwriting the edited version. >In this case, it's the last-modified timestamp you're looking for. >Does anyone have a better example of why a created timestamp is >needed? Yes, of course I need the last-modified stamp - also!!! But that doesn't mean that I *never* need to know when I created a file! If you copy a file, you clone it, and of course you should copy all file attributes. What's the problem with that? I am aware that programmers/hackers rarely care about other things than raw (7-bit US-ASCII) text files, but there's a large amount of users (lusers) out there, and they have somewhat other interests. This is not a question of "who's right", but rather "how do we make both happy?" -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 14 Feb 97 12:20:40 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 65 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-19-30.access.one.net In-reply-to: tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu's message of 13 Feb 1997 22:15:21 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22717 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61605 comp.sys.mac.system:199529 In article <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu>, tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu ( Tim) writes: Under the current NeXT/bsd filesystem, a file with one character in it takes up 2 bytes. -rw------- 1 tfs 2 Feb 13 17:08 foo So it's feasible to have allot of small files, hell that's what losenet news is, lots and lots of small files, many smaller than the rather huge 32K that you're used to... Untrue. FFS uses blocks and fragments. Blocks are generally something like 8k or 4k, fragments are generally 512 bytes or 1024 bytes (1/8 a block or so). Any file _must_ be an integral number of fragments. Only the last partial block can be made up of adjacent fragments somewhere - a block-sized file will be stored as a block, not as a bunch of fragments. Only the last direct pointer in the inode can reference a fragment, which means that a file which is 25 blocks plus N bytes (N count=1" to create a file of an arbitrary size. The following table gives the , what ls -l reports, and what du and ls -s report for a couple sizes on my filesystem (8k blocks, 1k fragments): ls -l du/ls -s 2 2 1 1024 1024 1 1025 1025 2 88k 90112 88 88k=8k/bloc*11 blocks 88k+1 90113 89 96k 98304 96 96k=8k/block*12 blocks 96k+1 98305 112 From the above, it's clear that there are 12 direct block pointers in the inode, since it allocates a full 8k for that last one byte. That's not such a big deal, because it only affects large files (8k-1 wasted from 96k+1 is less than 8% wastage), while still keeping wastage small for small files. [BTW, 4k was the chosen blocksize initially for ffs, because with 4k blocks, you could put 1024 block numbers in an indirect node, and 1024 indirect block numbers in an doubly-indirect node, giving a filesystem size of 4*1024*1024*1024==2^32 without using triply-indirect blocks (which aren't currently implemented anyhow, though there's an inode entry for one). Unfortunately, somewhere signed integers are being used, so you can only use 2^32 (2G) in one partition on NeXTSTEP at this time. Actually you want it to be slightly smaller than that.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!usenet From: sieg@informatik.uni-muenchen.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 14 Feb 1997 21:25:57 GMT Organization: Institut fuer Informatik der Universitaet Muenchen Lines: 52 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5e2l95$902@arcadia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> References: <5e0s22$iki$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> Reply-To: sieg@informatik.uni-muenchen.de NNTP-Posting-Host: pizzastation.ppp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de Keywords: drag & drop mac nextstep unix text Dave Scocca writes > In article , > Alan Olson wrote: > > \ This is not a problem with multiple users, this is a problem with > \ using multiple applications to edit the same file. A single > \ individual would encounter this problem if he prefered the Photoshop > \ tools for some of his work and the Painter tools for the rest. > [...] > > This strikes me as an extraordinarily common situation. Especially > with files of type TEXT. > > \ Sounds like you want file type to determine which application to > \ open. That's a valid way of doing things, and in some ways its better > \ than using creator codes. On a Mac the problem is there is no > \ standardization of type codes (as far as I know). You can't tell the > \ format/contents of a file just by looking at the type. There are a > \ few types which are widely recognized (e.g., TEXT), but I don't think > \ Apple has issued directives saying that files of type XXXX must have > \ such and such a format. > > TEXT is exactly why I like the current system. If I'm editing a web > page, I want to open it in Alpha. If it's a SAS program, I may want > BBEdit or SAS depending on whether I want to edit it or run it. If > it's a text file I've downloaded from the Net, I probably want to open > it in Word 5. But if it's a binhexed file, I want to use Stuffit > Expander. > > My solution is drag and drop--I've got a few options (Expander, Word, > and BBEdit) installed in DragThing, and most of my other options are > available by dragging into the menu bar. When I can, though, I take > advantage of creator codes--my web pages are Alpha documents, so the > machine "knows" to open them in Alpha. You just do the same with Nextstep / Openstep for mach! > > If I were forced to use a system that assigned only one app per file > type, TEXT files would drive me up the wall. Just try Nextstep / Openstep for mach befor you complain, please! > > D. > -- > * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * > * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * > * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * > * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * -- Arne Sieg, StuMi-Sysadmin PST (E10, E3) url: http://www.pst.informatik.uni-muenchen.de/~sieg/ #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!fido.news.demon.net!demon!sun4nl!icgned!news From: : Hans Mulder Subject: Re: Broken Pipe? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: vuur Message-ID: Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: IC Group X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82 [trh1]) References: <5co1u2$kpn$1@inet-prime.comshare.com> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:43:30 GMT Lines: 35 alanf@izzy.net wrote: >In the 3.2 developer environment, I'm working on an app that redirects the >stdin and stdout from a shell process to pipes, that in turn are connected to >text objects. I've used a similar program in the Garfinkel/Mahoney book as >reference. >The shell's stdout is connected to fromProcess[1], the end of the pipe >fromProcess[0] is being watched by DPSWatchFD (3.2, remember?). DPSWatchFD >calls a printer function that messages the text object. This appears to work >fine... the arguments I pass the shell via execv are echoed back, and appear >in the text object. >The shell script should (and initially does) simply echos to stdout whatever >comes in on stdin. How exactly does your shell script do that? >The debugger indicates whatever I type into the "inbound" text object is >making it to the pipe, however I receive nothing coming back from the other >pipe. I believe I've traced everything I can with the debugging tools, the >other side of the pipes are inaccessible. The most common problem in this type of exercise is stdio buffering in the shell script. You'd test the shell script in a Terminal window and it'll work fine (because then you get line buffering). Then you use it at the far end of a pipe and it'll fail, because then you get block buffering. A few unix utilities allow you to turn off buffering, for example cat uses the -u option to do that. But cat is in a minority here. It would be nice if there were a way to tell stdio to not buffer the stdout stream (an enviromnet variable maybe?). AFAIK, there is no such mechanism. Hope this helps, -- HansM #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!portal.gmu.edu!gravity.science.gmu.edu!tfs From: tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu ( Tim) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 13 Feb 1997 22:15:21 GMT Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax Va. Lines: 29 Sender: tfs-----@gravity.science.gmu.edu (remove dashes to reply) Message-ID: <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gravity.science.gmu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22720 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61607 comp.sys.mac.system:199549 In article <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu>, Dave Scocca wrote: > >Under one condition--if we're using multiple hidden files, we MUST fix >the large-block problem for large hard drives. Since a hard drive has >65536 allocation blocks, and no more, small files on large hard drive >are large. Right now, a text file containing a single character >consumes 32K of my (2.1 GB) hard drive. > Well, there's no way the filesystem being used should be the Mac's, (flames on this to /dev/null if you can't see that the above is a monster problem, it isn't worth discussing). Under the current NeXT/bsd filesystem, a file with one character in it takes up 2 bytes. -rw------- 1 tfs 2 Feb 13 17:08 foo So it's feasible to have allot of small files, hell that's what losenet news is, lots and lots of small files, many smaller than the rather huge 32K that you're used to... Tim -- ________________________________________________________________ tfs@vampire.science.gmu.edu (NeXTmail, MIME) Tim Scanlon tfs@epic.org (PGP key aval.) crypto is good Seal Technologies Inc. I own my own words #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!162.62.21.8!adaptec!margaret.trillium.adaptec.com!user From: rang@trillium.adaptec.com (Anton Rang) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 09:23:06 -0600 Organization: Trillium Research, an Adaptec company Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: margaret.trillium.adaptec.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22721 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61610 comp.sys.mac.system:199555 In article <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu>, tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu ( Tim) wrote: > Under the current NeXT/bsd filesystem, a file with one character > in it takes up 2 bytes. > -rw------- 1 tfs 2 Feb 13 17:08 foo Well, er, no. I'm not sure of NeXT's implementation (BSD filesystems vary from machine to machine), but no BSD-derived file systems allow a file to take less than one block on disk (512 bytes). Saving that little bit of space just isn't worth the huge impact on speed. (Well, for some applications it would be; that's one place where plug-in file systems are useful.) > So it's feasible to have allot of small files, hell that's what > losenet news is, lots and lots of small files, many smaller than > the rather huge 32K that you're used to... The current HFS *implementation* is certainly painful on modern drives, and should be replaced; but 99% of the API doesn't care about the implementation; it's reasonable to think about an HFS implementation which allocated space in a much more friendly way but still provided the current Mac functionality. On a side note, someone claimed on one thread that the support for aliases in the Mac file system was a performance hit, and thus should be dropped; I'd just like to point out that the UNIX inode number is very similar and nobody suggests that it be dropped. :) -- Anton #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 14 Feb 97 08:48:03 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 67 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <4mxSLlq00iWUI108t7@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-30.access.one.net In-reply-to: Kresten Krab Thorup's message of 14 Feb 1997 10:51:04 +0100 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5260 comp.sys.next.programmer:22722 In article , Kresten Krab Thorup writes: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > .... Just to see what the difference is for the "hit" case, I > wrote a simple program that calls [anObject self] 100 million > times. The times were: > > NeXT runtime, 2.5.8 :29 > objcrt 1.1.1 1:33 > objcrt 1.1.7 :46 > objcrt 1.1.8 :27 > direct call to imp :11 > > This does bring up a couple points for future testing. Why is > NeXT's dispatch so fast? Do they cache the tuple > between calls to objc_msgSend()? [That should be easy enough to > ferret out.] The NeXT messenger is so fast because someone spend *months* optimizing it for each specific hardware platform. It has a linear hash table cache in each class which contains (SEL,IMP) pairs, using "(SEL & (2^n-1))" as hash function. Ugh. This did suddenly (for no good reason) cause me to test two other possibilities. The above were all without any optimization flags. (sorry.) A couple more numbers: NeXT runtime, -O2 :28 essentially the same objcrt 1.1.8, -O2 :18 NeXT's 2.5.8 objcrt 1.1.8, -O6 :16 gcc 2.7.2 with Pentium opts (961122) NeXT's version didn't change because it's still doing a function call, and the function call should still be the same speed. 1.1.8 inlines them, and then optimizes the inline code. With the Pentium optimized gcc, it presumably can also schedule things. Still, this isn't a very good benchmark, though now I'm wondering whether -O6 can overcome the miss penalty for a more "real" program. [Sorry, I can't test the GNU runtime using this crappy benchmark at this time without rebooting my machine to Linux.] With NEXTSTEP 4, the runtime also implements a new multi thread support scheme which doesn't use an explicit mutex. This even speeds up the non-multi threaded case because it doensn't have to check the Mt flag. I've been waiting a long time for this, as it's always seemed to me a silly distinction. Using an atomic store to update the cache should preserve the semantics without needing a flag, so long as all possible "simultaneous" stores are storing the same value. Wouldn't even need to be explicit, so long as you can't read a value that's half new, half stale. Should even work on SMP machines, unless one CPU can see a half-stale aligned word. [Brings up an interesting point. On an SMP machine running a multithreaded program on multiple CPUs, would it make more sense to have the IMP cache shared, or just let each of them maintain their own cache so they don't update each other's. I know that it would be nigh impossible to program, just thinking. Of course, after the cache is primed, it doesn't make much difference either way.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!fnnews.fnal.gov!stc06.ctd.ornl.gov!usenet From: woo@opus.bloomco.ornl.gov (John W. Wooten) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Data from App to Improv using Services? Date: 14 Feb 1997 15:04:07 GMT Organization: Oak Ridge National Lab, Oak Ridge, TN Lines: 14 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5e1ut7$8uo@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov> Reply-To: woo@korrnet.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 160.91.216.2 Where can I find out how to take data from an app I'm writing and put it into Improv for some calculations and formatting? I'd like to programmatically launch Improv and then paste the data parameters in. The rest of the formulas would already be in the spreadsheet if possible. -- J. W. Wooten http://sacam.oren.ortn.edu/~wooten Internet Consultant NeXTmail preferred, MIME is welcome Please finger woo@160.91.216.2 for PGP public key #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 14 Feb 97 08:32:48 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> <5dqfig$pm8@news.bu.edu> <5e0ev6$qje@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-17-30.access.one.net In-reply-to: macintsh@bu.edu's message of 14 Feb 1997 01:25:58 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22724 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61618 comp.sys.mac.system:199573 In article <5e0ev6$qje@news.bu.edu> macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: But my statement that the UI and implementation can't be separated referred more to this concept: no mater what the UI is, if the implementation is such that the UI is not *necessary*, then the majority of users and software vendors will cavalierly ignore it. I'm basing this theory on the DOS, Unix, and Windows practices of requiring or asking users to edit text files themselves in certain situations just because it's easier to ask that than to provide a more GUi-ish way to do it. Perhaps it's more of a cultural issue than a technical one. I'm not sure how common that type of practice is in the NeXT culture. But a Mac user *never* expects to be asked to do anything more than point, click, and drag. I won't claim that all NeXT "applications" are good in this regard. In general, though, real apps (ie, with GUI, launched from WorkSpace) tend to have a Preferences panel which stores its values in the defaults database. It's not done so much because it's recommended, as because with InterfaceBuilder, it's just not really that hard to throw together at least a minimal panel to handle most preferences. Some Unix-level stuff naturally requires you to putz with text config files. Obviously, if you install GNU CVS, you won't have a magical GUI for it :-). OTOH, things like PPP still usually require at least some command-line work, mostly because there simply aren't enough users out there to make it worth someone's while to put a GUI interface on it. Doing so wouldn't be hard, and if you could guarantee 100 shareware registrations to someone, they'd probably be willing to throw something together. [Depending on who "someone" is, you might only need 10 or 20 registrations :-).] There are some gray-area types, though. For instance, if you have "Super Power User Feature Which Is Not Fully Tested", you might not have a Preferences panel item for it. But you might leave the defaults database handling the same, and tell select customers you trust "Just go to a command-line and type 'dwrite MyApp SuperFeature YES'" or something of the sort. I've also done this in cases where I could more easily add a feature than I could rearrange my carefully laid out preferences panel, which isn't so easy to rearrange now that it's got 30 or 40 interacting options :-). Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!sun4nl!icgned!news From: : Hans Mulder Subject: Re: Compiler version in newest OS? X-Nntp-Posting-Host: vuur Message-ID: Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: : hardly any X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82 [trh1]) References: <9701282154.AA05544@basil.icce.rug.nl> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 15:22:41 GMT Lines: 28 Tom Hageman wrote: >In article <5cigco$bou@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, you wrote: >> My understanding is that NeXT's compiler (cc) is comparable (derived from?) >> some version of the gnu c compiler. I have NS3.2/3.3 Developer, and am >> wondering whether the compiler that comes with 4.0 (or are we up to 4.1?) is >> comparable to a more recent gnu compiler. A version number would answer my >> question. Is it 2.7.2? >Still based on 2.5.8: >tom@basil 51) cc -v >Reading specs from /lib/m68k/specs >NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-478, gcc version 2.5.8 >tom@basil 52) hostinfo >Mach kernel version: > NeXT Mach 4.1: Thu Sep 26 22:54:37 PDT 1996; root(rcbuilder):Objects/mk-183.27.obj~2/RELEASE_M68K >The OS/NT (aka OPENSTEP Enterprise) compiler is based on 2.7.2 (or was it 2.6.3? -- memory fails me:-/) It was 2.7.2: $ gcc -v Reading specs from C:/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/gcc-lib/i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5\2.7.2\specs gcc version 2.7.2 for NeXT PDO Incidentally, why does the pathname separator change form '/' to '\' at or near the word "winnt" :-? -- HansM #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 14 Feb 97 10:39:37 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 72 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-19-16.access.one.net In-reply-to: peterm@dna.lth.se's message of 14 Feb 97 11:17:00 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22726 comp.sys.mac.system:199599 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61624 One thing this thread is proving, beyond a _shadow_ of a doubt, is that once you put something into the information the filesystem stores with a file, it's almost _impossible_ to remove it. That observation, in and of itself, is a strong argument for not adding things to the inode :-). In article , peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >In this case, it's the last-modified timestamp you're looking for. >Does anyone have a better example of why a created timestamp is >needed? Yes, of course I need the last-modified stamp - also!!! But that doesn't mean that I *never* need to know when I created a file! If you copy a file, you clone it, and of course you should copy all file attributes. What's the problem with that? I am aware that programmers/hackers rarely care about other things than raw (7-bit US-ASCII) text files, but there's a large amount of users (lusers) out there, and they have somewhat other interests. Unfortunately, that is _not_ a valid argument for changing things, because it's open-ended. You might also want to know which user created a file. You might want to know what machine the file was created on. You might want to know which version of a program created the file (as distinct to which program created the file). Heck, you might want a complete log of which version of which program worked with a file, and which users editted it, when they editted it, what portions they editted, and where they editted it from. That _doesn't_ justify putting that information in _the_ filesystem. This thread has had suggestions which accomplish the same things over top of the existing filesystem, rather than by modifying things at a low level. All of this might justify putting the information in _a_ filesystem, though. Distinction? _The_ filesystem is the basic abstraction that lives somewhere deep in the kernel (at least to all intents and purposes). It should only be modified in extreme need. There's no reason you couldn't allow filesystem drivers to be layered on top of each other, though, with each level modifying how the filesystem is viewed. You might have multiple root filesystems (FFS, NFS, NTFS, HPFS, HFS, etc), with arbitrary filesystem "translators" layered on them. You want to view a non-HFS filesystem as having forks? Layer in a translator on whatever you have. Stuff it all in system libraries somewhere so that in the common case you don't even make the decision. [Using MacApp, you get something looking like HFS, using unistd.h you get something looking like FFS.] This is not a question of "who's right", but rather "how do we make both happy?" Well, except that I'm trying to argue that you shouldn't be unhappy with how it's currently done (in Unix) :-). More broadly, though, the filesystem obviously cannot be changed to make everyone happy. Everyone might be happy with the fact that their pet feature is in there, but everyone will be _unhappy_ because the performance sucks, it's buggy as all get out, and it doesn't interoperate with other filesystems at all. The plain fact of the matter is that in the abstract, there is a lowest common denominator filesystem out there. It looks suspiciously like FFS, if only because NFS was built in an FFS environment. Anything Apple/NeXT come out with _must_ interoperate with NFS in an almost completely transparent fashion. _MUST_. That's not even an option. NFS is simply too prevalent. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Date: 14 Feb 1997 22:06:50 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5e2nlq$76p@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtva$u31@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22727 comp.sys.mac.system:199606 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61626 Nathan M. Urban (nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu) wrote: : macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: : : > As I stated in my original post, a POSIX subsystem is fine. A Unix : > directory tree appearing on my hard drive after a standard install is : > not. : I don't understand why not, considering that it doesn't take up that : much more disk space, allows you to run any Unix programs you may wish : to run in the future, is required by the OS to boot and do other : administrative things, and doesn't even need to be seen by you. For good or for ill, John's comments are going to reflect those of a lot of Mac users. Which means that all vestiges of Unix must be completely hidden, not just from day to day users, but even for system managment. Clearly, of current Unix implimentations, NeXT does this the best, but Apple has said it needs to be done better. Whether this means that Apple will develop a complete set of GUI wrappers for all functions, or choose instead to replace these functions, probably hasn't been decided. I personally hope that hiding the Unixness doesn't mean removing it, but comments by Tevanian indicate that Rhapsody might not include Unix utilities. In taking a month to examine all the kernal options Apple has shown that they are being thorough in picking the pieces of the Next Mac OS. It will probably be several more months before we get a clear view of issues like the Unixness of Rhapsody. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news-out.communique.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!194.151.176.1!news!cruel From: cruel@xs4all.nl (Bart) Subject: Special offer Newsgroups: comp.dcom.net-analysis,comp.dcom.net-management,comp.os.netware.connectivity,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.os.netware.security,comp.ai.neural-nets,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.protocols.nfs,comp.networks.noctools.bugs,comp.networks.noctools.d,comp.sys.northstar Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 20:27:03 GMT Message-ID: <23.0072463750839@news.xs4all.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: ztm02-09.dial.xs4all.nl X-Newsreader: News Xpress Version 1.0 Beta #4 Organization: Pedo lovers inc. Lines: 29 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.dcom.net-analysis:448 comp.dcom.net-management:4691 comp.os.netware.connectivity:24010 comp.os.netware.misc:51195 comp.os.netware.security:6106 comp.ai.neural-nets:27132 comp.sys.newton.misc:84771 comp.sys.newton.programmer:16729 comp.sys.next:150 comp.sys.next.advocacy:57527 comp.sys.next.bugs:4196 comp.sys.next.hardware:27223 comp.sys.next.marketplace:16403 comp.sys.next.misc:25057 comp.sys.next.programmer:22728 comp.sys.next.software:28059 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25357 comp.soft-sys.nextstep:3000 comp.protocols.nfs:11403 comp.networks.noctools.bugs:56 comp.networks.noctools.d:71 comp.sys.northstar:529 IMPORTANT MESSAGE !! Yes for 150 $ you can possibly buy a nice young tight boys ass for 1.5 hours. This is in a district close to Rotterdam in Holland The boys are 10-12 years old. They have not been used more than 1 month at the most, some are untouched. 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Only pure sexual use is allowed. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.netaxs.com!netaxs.com!joshua From: joshua@nothing.izzy.com (Pure Stuff) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 14 Feb 1997 21:24:17 GMT Organization: Net Access - Philadelphia's Original ISP Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5dieu7$p0v@news.bu.edu> <5dqfig$pm8@news.bu.edu> <5e0ev6$qje@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nothing.izzy.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.2.1 BETA UNIX) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22729 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61639 comp.sys.mac.system:199636 In article , Scott Hess wrote: >Some Unix-level stuff naturally requires you to putz with text config >files. Obviously, if you install GNU CVS, you won't have a magical >GUI for it :-). OTOH, things like PPP still usually require at least [hack chop cut] Actually, using xemacs will provide you with a nice hapyp GUI for CVS. There's a 'VC' (version control) menu under the 'Tools' menu, which has context sensitive options (register file, next-action, etc). Makes working with CVS a lot easier (even for someone like me, who actually remembers how to type 'cvs commit'). So, there's your magical gui, emacs :) Joshua "emacs makes it happen" Burgin _________________________________________________________________________ Joshua Burgin Repeat after me:`I would like to feed your fingertips to the wolverines.' #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!nef.ens.fr!drakkar!jalon From: jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Link trick Date: 14 Feb 1997 19:20:53 GMT Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5e2dul$adp@nef.ens.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: drakkar.ens.fr Hello, I'm trying to "simulate" the link crtl-drag/link trick in Interface Builder. But I have some problem. I'm using NS3.3 (no Openstep for Mach 4 for the moment... helas...) The simple way to ask my questions is to give you this URL : http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/nxtproblems/pseudolink/ where you will find screen shots, sources and my questions (the sources are short...) thanks in advance. --Julien -- Julien Jalon | Ecole normale superieure jalon@clipper.ens.fr | 45 rue d'Ulm http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/ | 75230 Paris Cedex 05 | FRANCE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!usenet From: woodward@onramp.net (John Woodward) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 14 Feb 1997 22:36:21 GMT Organization: OnRamp Technologies; ISP; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA Lines: 25 Distribution: comp Message-ID: <5e2pd5$lii@newsread.onramp.net> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp5-12.dllstx.onramp.net In article shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > > NeXT runtime, -O2 :28 essentially the same > objcrt 1.1.8, -O2 :18 NeXT's 2.5.8 > objcrt 1.1.8, -O6 :16 gcc 2.7.2 with Pentium opts (961122) > > NeXT's version didn't change because it's still doing a function call, > and the function call should still be the same speed. 1.1.8 inlines > them, and then optimizes the inline code. With the Pentium optimized > gcc, it presumably can also schedule things. > > Still, this isn't a very good benchmark, though now I'm wondering > whether -O6 can overcome the miss penalty for a more "real" program. What Pentium opts are these? Where can I find them? john -- ============================================================== John W. Woodward email: woodward@onramp.net Dallas, TX NeXTMail welcome! ============================================================== #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 14 Feb 1997 23:15:58 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 125 Message-ID: <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22732 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61661 comp.sys.mac.system:199674 Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: : Alan Jenks wrote: : : > On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After : > installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created : > files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double : > click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others with : > Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with either one. : > : > What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent this : > step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? : : There is no 'creator' concept - that idea falls apart in a multiuser : scenario. Ignoring the attempt to brush off the issue with with an air of false superiority, there are legitimate uses for file creator info even in a multi user environment. In essence, creator indicates the primary program best used to examine a file, while file type provides a broader list of secondary apps which can open the file and at least use some of the data. This distinction between best and possible applications to open a file is not inherently based on the number of users. Of course, for standard file types, like GIF/TIFF/JPEG, or for plain text files, this distinction does not mean much, but it can be important for the proprietary file types produced by most third party apps. These apps need to store program specific info, like formating for a Word or Excel document, or layering in a Photoshop document. While a text editor might be able to open a Word document and allow you to read the text, it might lose the formating. Thus such a document has a best app with which to view it in as well as a number of acceptable ones. : Filename extensions are used, but they are more flexible than Windows : extensions. There's no limit on the length of the extension, for : instance. The NeXTSTEP presentation app 'Concurrence' uses a : '.concur' extension. Spaces are allowed in filenames. While the Mac users abhorance of file extensions is largely religious, it will probably need to be honored for the sake of a smooth migration path. However this could be as simple as hiding the extension from view in the Finder. : The WorkspaceManager, an application which plays the role of Apple's : Finder, manages what applications open which files. Each application : tells the workspace what kinds of files it can open. If you select : a file, and bring up an 'Inspector' window (Command-3), you are : shown a scrolling list of icons which represent the applications : that can open that kind of file. One of them is treated as the : default. The default application is shown as the furthest-left icon. : : For a file of type '.tiff', I have 5 icons: IconBuilder.app, : WetPaint.app, Preview.app, WorkspaceManager.app, and Edit.app. : Edit.app is always an option. This may sound odd, but it often : makes sense. Files with no extension are treated as Edit files. : WorkspaceManager.app provides a Contents Inspector (Command-2) : in which documents are displayed (in a small window). You can : create loadable bundles that will extend the Contents Inspector : to handle more filetypes. In this sense, Contents Inspector works like QuickTime, though QuickTime uses/makes custom previews and icons. Custom icons are particularly useful since even the best file name is not always as meaningful as a small version of the image. : If you double-click a file, the default application for that type : of file is used to open it. : : To change the default, you bring up the inspector, select another : application, and click the 'Set Default' button. You don't have : to deal with all the editing garbage that Windows requires. : : To open the file with an application other than the default, : you can either Command-drop the file on the application's icon, : or you can bring up the Inspector and double-click the icon : of the application you want it to open in. (Or you can use the : open menu, in that application.) This is a good example of the kinds of thing that excite me about the possibilities of Rhapsody. By merging the Mac way with the NeXT way Apple can produce something better than either. Of course everyone has their own vision of how this might look, but here's an idea. Suppose the new combined Finder/Workspace Manager works like this. If you double click on a file, it opens in the creator, if you have it, else it opens in the default app for that file type. If you shift-double click, or double click with button 2 or whatever, it brings up an inspector window which allows you to select any app which will open that file type. In addition it will let you change the default app for that file type and also change the creator of that file. : In one way, this may seem like a step backwards. But, in the : 5 years I've been using NeXT's, I've never once had an occasion : to need some utility so I could fix some file rendered useless : by munged type/creator codes. That happened quite a few times : in my 3 years if Mac ownership. (If it wasn't a problem, : there wouldn't be several third-party tools around to work : around it.) : : And, again, creator codes don't work well in a multi-user : environment or network. If one user prefers Painter, and : one user prefers Photoshop, and they both have to work on : a set of files, they're continually going to have creator : problems, because the files will continually have their creator : code set to the other person's app. If we combine the approaches, then no one needs to take a step backward. There are certainly ways in which the Workspace's easy choice of opening app is an improvement. Likewise there is sometimes value in knowing the file's creator, in part to reduce the number of file types. These can easily be merged if one retains these 2 pieces of info. Perhaps one could even have a user preference that set double click to use creator or use default. How to store this and like info (custom icons, previews, etc.), whether by forks or wrappers or hidden files or filename extensions is a technical issue which does not need to impact the look and feel or user experience. Hopefully only the engineers will worry about this. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-xfer.netaxs.com!news.fast.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.179.156.40!kithrup.com!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: sef@kithrup.com Newsgroups: comp.dcom.net-analysis,comp.dcom.net-management,comp.os.netware.connectivity,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.os.netware.security,comp.ai.neural-nets,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.protocols.nfs,comp.networks.noctools.bugs,comp.networks.noctools.d,comp.sys.northstar Subject: cmsg cancel <23.0072463750839@news.xs4all.nl> Date: 14 Feb 1997 21:53:53 GMT Control: cancel <23.0072463750839@news.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Sender: cruel@xs4all.nl (Bart) X-Cancelled-By: sef@kithrup.com Approved: sef@kithrup.com Lines: 1 Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!csn!nntp-xfer-2.csn.net!yuma!beethoven.cs.colostate.edu!warnerr From: warnerr@beethoven.cs.colostate.edu ( richard warner) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Anyone know if OS4Mach 4.1 supports EIDE CDROMS???? Date: 14 Feb 1997 19:47:11 GMT Organization: Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523 Lines: 1 Message-ID: <5e2ffv$3o2s@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: beethoven.cs.colostate.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 15 Feb 1997 00:12:36 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 52 Message-ID: <5e2v1k$g06@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22734 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61665 comp.sys.mac.system:199684 John Rudd (jrudd@cygnus.com) wrote: : Tony Nelson wrote: : > I'll be brief. We like Macs. We use Macs because we can understand them. : > We want Macs, not techie Unix stuff. We aren't required to buy your : > favorite toy. If you don't like Macs, GO AWAY. While I abhor the lack of knowledge inherent Tony's post, I don't think Apple can or will ignore users like him. For these users, Apple will hide all outward signs of Unix and make the user experience a lot like Sys 7. Apple has said that they are approaching the UI item by item, taking only the NeXT versions that offer clear benefit. Of course, we don't know what Apple's definition of clear benefit is, but I have a feeling it's some where between Tony's and John's. We also don't know if Apple's approach to de-Unixizing Rhapsody will simply make it so that using and managing a Rhapsody Mac won't require a CLI or whether Apple will go further in this regard. It seems clear from Tevanian's comment to the effect that Rhapsody might include Unix utilities, that this issue has not yet been decided. : Oh, and by the way, unless you plan to stick with System 7, if you stay on : the mac, you DO have to buy my favorite toy. And if you want me to go away, : then stop posting your ignorant drivel in our nextstep newsgroups. This is as short sighted as Tony's comment. The final Rhapsody will combine both NeXT users expectations with those of Mac users, hopefully providing a compromise amenable to most if not all. We all have to expect some disappointments. Mac users will gain a lot of performance and stability from the underlying microkernal. They will also find some changes the the GUI which they will hate in the short run and hopefully love in the long run. Both the compatibility of older apps and availability of new Rhapsody versions will be limited at first and grow with time. Likewise the inclusion of Apple technologies will grow with time. It will probably not be until the combined release 18 months from now that DPS will gain QD GX features, for example. NeXT users will probably see even more changes they don't like in the GUI, though perhaps these can be addressed by preferences. They might lose Unix capability and some hardware options. It also might take several years for Rhapsody to make it to Intel hardware. They will gain improvement in multimedia, and benefit from other Apple technologies. They will also gain since the expanded user base will drive down costs and drive up developer support. For many on both sides the final result will be wonderful, but some on both sides will be disappointed. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 15 Feb 1997 03:49:50 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 58 Message-ID: <5e3bou$emo$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22735 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61666 comp.sys.mac.system:199687 In article <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, William Raphael Hix wrote: \ Of course, for standard \ file types, like GIF/TIFF/JPEG, or for plain text files, this distinction \ does not mean much, but it can be important for the proprietary file types \ produced by most third party apps. Actually, I'd go the other way. Creator information is MOST important when lots of different apps can access the same file type. A WDBN (WorD BiNary) document will always be opened by MSWD (MicroSoft WorD), but a TEXT file can have many apps, and I like the fact that my Alpha docs know they belong to Alpha, my SAS docs know they belong to SAS, my Textures docs know they belong to Textures, and so on. \ Thus such a document has a best app with which to view it in as well as a \ number of acceptable ones. And in many many cases, the "preferred" app is the one with which the document was last saved. And in cases where this is not the case (Internet Explorer saves a GIF you want to edit with Color It!, say) it's a one-time operation to save the doc from the desired app and from then on it opens correctly. \ While the Mac users abhorance of file extensions is largely religious, \ it will probably need to be honored for the sake of a smooth migration \ path. However this could be as simple as hiding the extension from view \ in the Finder. BUT God forbid this should be done the same way as Windows NT 4. While the system _SHOULD_ hide extensions the user doesn't want, it should allow users and programs to name files with extensions which will remain visible. Otherwise, you're squinting at icons to determine which of the three "myprog"s is myprog.sas, which is myprog.log, and which is myprog.lst. Maybe the _real_ solution is to come up with a different extension separator (say a \?), keep the . as a generic character usable anywhere in a filename, use the \ to demarcate the "extension", and have a utility encouraging users to remove any \ characters they may have used in file names. (I just checked my 10,000-file hard drive, and no files contain the \ character, even though it's a legal Mac filename character.) To solve the multi-user problem with creator codes, maybe each user could have a farily small personal database mapping selected type/creator combos to other creators that know the relevant type. This shouldn't be too much overhead... after all, I don't know that there are _that_ many situations where users will want this... certainly not so many that such a table (think MacOS Easy Open, or Internet Config's helper apps) would become cumbersome. D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!mencjo.apple.com!user From: jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.lang.pascal.mac,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.oop.misc,comp.arch.embedded,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [ANN] METROWERKS TO ACQUIRE LATITUDE PORTING TECHNOLOGY Date: 15 Feb 1997 00:36:42 GMT Organization: De Anza College Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: mencjo.apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61668 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4099 comp.lang.pascal.mac:4809 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:10882 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20824 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:5398 comp.sys.mac.oop.misc:2236 comp.arch.embedded:16457 comp.lang.java.programmer:36831 comp.sys.next.misc:25060 comp.sys.next.programmer:22736 > > I'm afraid not, The available targets referred to in the CodeWarrior > Latitude are the Sun Microsystems' Solaris 2.3+, Silicon Graphics(R)' > IRIX(TM) 5.2+ and Hewlett-Packard(R)'s HP-UX(R) 9.03+. So now MW is supporting Unix platforms? Please do not ignore the Intel platform (UnixWare/Solaris, Linux). Also will MW port PowerPlant to X/Windows? Motif? CDE? > > Metrowerks CodeWarrior Gold will continue to support MacOS and Windows and > Rhapsody. > What about the BeOS? Will MW still support the BeOS? Please, Please, don't abandon the BeOS. -- ############################################################### # My opinions are my own and not of any I work for. # ############################################################### # WARNING: DO NOT send unwarranted mail or SPAMS! Further # # proceedings of sending unwarranted email or spams will # # result in fines up to $1000 in damages. # ############################################################### #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: "static inline" methods would be nice ... Date: 14 Feb 97 21:32:47 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 19 Distribution: comp Message-ID: References: <5e2pd5$lii@newsread.onramp.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-14-4.access.one.net In-reply-to: woodward@onramp.net's message of 14 Feb 1997 22:36:21 GMT In article <5e2pd5$lii@newsread.onramp.net>, woodward@onramp.net (John Woodward) writes: In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > With the Pentium optimized gcc, it presumably can also schedule > things. > What Pentium opts are these? Where can I find them? It's a version of gcc 2.7.2 compiled for NS3.3, with the patches from http://www.goof.com/pcg/ applied to it. The goal of that page (pcg==Pentium Compiler Group) is to do a version of gcc which does optimized scheduing for Pentium (and perhaps Pentium Pro). Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!aaron.hamilton.edu!bcollett From: bcollett@hamilton.edu (Brian Collett) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 10:02:49 -0400 Organization: Hamilton College Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FD69A5.673A@subsequent.com> <32FF770C.6601@mcs.com> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mac07896.phys.hamilton.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22738 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61695 comp.sys.mac.system:199750 In article <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu>, tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu ( Tim) wrote: > > Under the current NeXT/bsd filesystem, a file with one character > in it takes up 2 bytes. > -rw------- 1 tfs 2 Feb 13 17:08 foo > > So it's feasible to have allot of small files, hell that's what > losenet news is, lots and lots of small files, many smaller than > the rather huge 32K that you're used to... > Are you sure? The normal unix ls command does not show you the amount of disk space that file uses, only the number of bytes used in the file. You have to use du to find out how much space the file takes but it is normal for unix to have blocks sizes of 512 to 1024 bytes. I haven't used a Next machine but this is the case on many unix systems. Brian. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!nef.ens.fr!drakkar!jalon From: jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 15 Feb 1997 15:56:55 GMT Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5e4mc7$86l@nef.ens.fr> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: drakkar.ens.fr Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22739 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61698 comp.sys.mac.system:199754 In article , Brian Collett wrote: >Are you sure? The normal unix ls command does not show you the amount of >disk space that file uses, only the number of bytes used in the file. You >have to use du to find out how much space the file takes but it is normal >for unix to have blocks sizes of 512 to 1024 bytes. I haven't used a Next >machine but this is the case on many unix systems. You can use ls -s to see te real space the file takes (and it is always less than the apparent file size : $ mkdir temp $ cd temp $ cat > foo a $ ll foo -rw-r--r-- 1 jalon 2 Feb 15 16:53 foo $ ll -s foo 1 -rw-r--r-- 1 jalon 2 Feb 15 16:53 foo $ du . 2 $ --Julien -- Julien Jalon | Ecole normale superieure jalon@clipper.ens.fr | 45 rue d'Ulm http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/ | 75230 Paris Cedex 05 | FRANCE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!europa.clark.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 12:52:16 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 163 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:199764 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4103 comp.sys.next.programmer:22740 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61707 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 14-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >> That's what I said, yes. In general, this only happens when someone's >> system was very low on disk space to start with. If you make sure that >> you've got 100 MB free where you swap to, you're not going to have >> problems. > > Well rebooting is an admission of failure in the OS, either by implementation > but even worse by design, and in this case it sounds like it's by design. Operating systems fail when the machine is not provided adequate resources for the tasks that it's supposed to perform. Polite operating systems fail in a reasonably graceful way that may even allows you to correct the problem without rebooting, which is what NEXTSTEP does. Other operating systems tend to panic or lock up. >> Handle how? Specificly what should the OS do when open() fails instead >> of returning EACCESS? > > I explained that in my original post... to explain, the OS is responsible > for maintaining the environment and resources within which an application > runs. If the operating system is not handling such common cases > and expecting an application to handle them, it is not providing > a very good environment, and so its whole raison d'etre for existence > is in question. Apparently, you seem to think the OS should ask the user via an alert panel to browse the filesystem in order to specify where the missing file is. Do you agree that this was your suggestion? But what happens if there isn't a user? Should the process block indefinitely until someone notices that the machine is wedged? What happens if the file exists, but the OS refuses to allow the process to access the file because the process does not have the appropriate permissions? Are you saying that it's the OS' responsibility to allow the process to access the file anyway? [ ... ] >> I assume you're just talking about the first case, where malloc() fails. >> Polite applications warn the user that they couldn't get the memory >> they needed, and they abort the operation being attempted, and return to >> their main event loop. > > Since this is a case that should be handled by every running task, > why burden the application programmer with this task: Because not all tasks will want to handle a particular error condition in the same way? [ ... ] >> You've acknowledged that the OS should not perform inappropriate actions >> when encountering an exception since you gave the specific example of >> killing processes, but you don't appear to realize that your suggestions >> that the OS perform some other action beyond reporting the exceptional >> condition means that the OS will do things which are inappropriate for >> some tasks-- thus, the contradiction. > > No, you don't make sense here: you are attempting to contrive some > contradition. If the OS reports the problem, it is asking the user > for some help, without having to bother the application. And the > kinds of conditions I am talking about are problems with resources, > the exact entity that it is the OSs job to manage. In order to > prove your asserted contradiction you would have to show what is > inappropriate for the OS to handle in any of the example scenarios > I have given. Very good. I'll be happy to do so: Consider a machine like a web server, which does not have a user or administrator on the console. It's the responsibility of the programmers to write the web server so that it returns a 4xx code indicating that the requested resource was not found. It would be completely inappropriate for the web server to stop running and pop up an alert panel that some file could not be found, and wait for someone to tell the program what to do. >>>> How should the OS handle these exceptional conditions? Are you saying >>>> the OS should do the same thing to every process when those errors >>>> occur, instead of passing the error condition to the process and letting >>>> the process decide for itself what should be done? >>> >>> Yes, because many of these things are so common. Why clutter >>> applications just to make up for deficiencies in the OS? >> >> You're dodging the question. It's remarkably easy to claim that the OS >> is deficient, but it's much harder to define alternative behavior that >> the OS should perform that's generally useful for all processes. > > Um, I think I answered yes... how is that "dodging the question"? I have > also defined what the OS should do. Your suggestion for what the OS should do when a file is not found is inappropriate for some tasks, and you haven't given any specific suggestions for what the OS should do when the other two types of exceptions that you brought up as examples occur. > What more do you want, apart from an argument and a boring Internet > flame war? Please stick to the substance. I have been sticking to the substance, while you have not substantiated your claims. If you object to being flamed, I would suggest either coming up with better arguments or not using provocative phrases (for example, "technically deficient"). [ ... ] >> The two aren't mutually exclusive by any means. Right now, we've got >> someone from Unisys who is extolling the virtues of Unisys as "a real >> OS", and slamming other operating systems as "technically deficient". > > No, take out your emotionally provokative tone like "slamming". And precisely when were you going to take out _your_ emotionally provocative tone from phrases like 'technically deficient' or 'a real OS'? Why are you complaining when I've simply responded to your argument using a tone and rhetorical style which is quite similar yours? > I have made some points and given examples, I can't see that who I work > for disqualifies me from this. I didn't say you were disqualified from anything; I said you were biased. Who you work for is certainly relevant when you are employed by Unisys and you start talking about Unisys as a 'real operating system' in contrast to some alternatives. Regardless of whether you choose to admit it or not, you _are_ biased. > Remember, Unisys is a large Unix vendor > as well, so stay off your high horse as your comments are just silly. > You are being personal, please keep it to technical points. Pointing out that your arguments are biased is not a personal attack, since it's obviously relevant to the arguments you've been making. Aside from the issue of bias, where have I been personal? [ ... ] >>> If Apple wants to adopt NeXT and Mach, then it had better be fully >>> aware of the technical deficiencies of Unix, or Apple will lose its >>> edge of superiority. >> >> What "technical deficiencies" are you talking about, and precisely what >> "edge of superiority" did Apple and MacOS have over the NEXTSTEP (which >> is a Unix) operating system? > > Because MacOS made computers useable. There are good things about > Nextstep, but you should be careful about inheriting all the problems > of Unix. You're dodging the question yet again. Specificly, what are all of these "problems of Unix" that Apple might inherit? Specificly, what "technical deficiencies" are you talking about? -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 13:08:13 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61709 comp.sys.mac.system:199773 comp.sys.next.programmer:22741 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by John Siracusa@bu.edu >: It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used >: by multiple users. > > I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't > vary from user to user. While that is true, the Mac paradigm uses that information to make the decision as to which application should open a particular file. The Mac paradigm doesn't work very well when you consider a multiuser operating system because individual users should be able to decide for themselves which app should open a file and not have their decisions change what happens to other users. > If you're talking about the type of thing that is stored in preference > files on the Mac, then the logical solution is to have separate > preference folders for each user. Correct. That is what NEXTSTEP currently does-- the Workspace keeps track of the preferred opening application within a set of preferences files within each user's home directory. > This doesn't really apply since, abilities aside, Rhaposdy will > be targeted as a single-user system from what I have read. Rhapsody will undoubtedly work just fine as a single-user OS, agreed, but Rhapsody is almost certainly going to be multiuser. It's very easy for a multiuser OS to act like a single-user OS, as NEXTSTEP did with the default 'me' user. The reverse is not true, and it would be a very bad move on Apple's part to not make Rhapsody multiuser. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Need Adaptec2940SCSIDriver.config v 3.37 Date: 15 Feb 1997 20:05:13 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5e54tp$lm2@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22742 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25367 comp.sys.next.software:28073 I believe I need a newer version of the Adaptec2940SCSIDriver.config than the one on the 3.3 installation disks. If anyone hase v 3.37 or later, could you please NeXTMail me a copy? Thank you. Randy Jackson -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: 15 Feb 1997 20:22:32 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] From MacWeek: Sources in the boiler room report that Rhapsody will weigh in at about 110 Mbytes of pure chewing satisfaction and come with three levels of Install: EZ, Minimal and Custom. Even better, Mac users can install a version of Rhapsody that will not include a path to Unix, so they never have to soil their hands with the greasy innards of the new OS. --- Interesting... -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!news.ecn.bgu.edu!eiuts15.eiu.edu!user From: cuahb@DIESPAMDIE.bgu.edu (Adin Hunter Baber) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 16:10:36 -0600 Organization: Eastern IL University Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: eiuts15.eiu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22744 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61719 comp.sys.mac.system:199814 Teh main points of this thread seem to me to be: 1)should we keep the resource fork? and 2)how will the file system work in a multi-user environment. 1) I think the resource fork is an interesting idea, for the purposes of storing "meta-info." however, we need to remeber that the resoucre fork contains other info, such as icons. As a programmer going from DOS to Mac, I think the resouce fork is great, as it simplifies some programming aspects. 2)As a person whom owns a Mac that is used by three different people all the time, I think I am somewhat knowledgable on the multi-user aspect. The creation/prefereed program of a document does not cause us any problems. This is mostly due to a launcher palette that I keep on the upper left side of the screen. If somebody wants to open a file from other than its creator app, drag it to the launcher, and its opened. Its not that hard, when you have a place for all of your aliases to be kept. BTW, my launcher has aliases for around forty different apps, organized into six diferent sets, each containing 3 to 8 aliases. So, I find the complaint "that I sould be able to have opened in whatever app I want by double clicking" a little trivial. With my setup, drag-and-drop is as easy as double clicking. In fact, with my setup, I don't even have to click more than twice: first click to go the the right set (assuming its not already there) and the second click is to drag the doc's icon to the launcher. OTOH, the only time I have found a need to have a completelt different setup needed for different users are for prefs for a few apps. Most of these apps are games, or for internet use. Which means to me, what keyboard setup do I want for each game, or who is doing the posting to newsgroups. I think this could be implemented quite easily by simply having a few different prefs folders and a control panel to determine which prefs folder is being used. Hell, this could be done right now if someone wanted to make it for System 7. The only advantage of having it fully integrated into the OS would be that you could save completly different "looks" for the desktop. For example: the System 8 preview CD-ROM. -- Adin Hunter Baber cuahb@bgu.edu Please remove DIESPAMDIE before replying 'The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know' --Socrates #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!news2.cais.com!xombi!news From: recurve@resourceful.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: cc++ question Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 20:40:26 GMT Organization: Rosenzweig Investments Lines: 22 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.161.15.179 X-Nntp-Posting-Host: localhost X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) I'm trying to compile what should be a simple C++ program on NeXTStep 3.2 xombi.wizard.net> cc++ main.cc main.cc:86: warning: return type for `main' changed to integer type ld: Undefined symbols: endl(ostream &) _cerr ostream::operator<<(const char *) ostream::operator<<(ostream &(*)(ostream &)) _cout ostream::operator<<(int) ostream::operator<<(char) xombi.wizard.net> Why is the linker having a problem? Thanks! --- Son of Ginger and Harry, Aaron Rosenzweig http://www.wam.umd.edu/~recurve/ recurve@resourceful.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:41:04 -0600 From: Dan_Tapp@w3link.com Subject: CGI Handling of Interrupted Transfer Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <856049492.27218@dejanews.com> Reply-To: dtapp@dilan.com Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Sat Feb 15 23:31:33 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 198.252.165.157 () X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Authenticated-Sender: Dan_Tapp@w3link.com Lines: 52 Hi, all. While I was awaiting our development copy of WebObjects 3.x and other goodies, I busied myself with a small DO project on NS 3.3/Mach/Intel as a learning exercise; namely, a daemon-stub kit for CGI services under Apache. The ddcgi (DILAN Distributed CGI) object, when invoked, knows how to: *Decode URL-encoded special characters characters, *Attempt a connection with a remote object (a "ddcgiDaemon" whose name is part of the URL-encoding), *Pass the CGI environment (including GETted and POSTed values) to the daemon as an NSDictionary of name-value pairs, *Emit standard http headers back to the browser, and *pass HTML from the daemon to the browser, before breaking the connection and terminating. And, in the event the named daemon can't be found, the ddcgi object can emit some explanatory HTML. This little playkit actually got pretty useful to us, and now that I'm ready to move on into WebObjects, I find I need to keep a couple of intranet systems which are based on it up and running. The trouble is, I modified one of the CGI processes this week to send down a fairly large table, and I've discovered that, if a user hits the browser's "stop" button to interrupt a long HTML transfer, it crashes everything all the way back to and including the daemon. I have the daemon's toplevel process (the one invoked on each CGI call) wrapped in an inelegant-but-hardy exception handler..namely, it just tosses the bad connection, bleats a warning to the console, and moves on. It's ugly, but it works...while the cgi stub gave me fits and starts as I learned my way around, it's been hard to bonk one of the daemons, until now. Although I don't know PERL, I have read some sample code, and I conjectured that standard CGI processes don't have to worry about interrupted transfer, i.e. the http server sees the break message from the browser and gracefully accepts (and tosses) the remaining HTML output from a discarded CGI instance, until the instance finally shuts up and goes away. Based on the little knowledge that I've gleaned so far, my conjecture is still sound, and I should be concerned with an Apache configuration issue, rather than error-handling in the CGI stub itself. Does anyone have any comments on my predicament? Thanks & regards, - Dan -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!nic.wat.hookup.net!digifix!news From: sanguish@digifix.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net Supersedes: <413853649874@digifix.com> Date: 16 Feb 1997 02:23:10 GMT Organization: Digital Fix Development Lines: 347 Approved: sanguish@digifix.com Message-ID: <22496856059808@digifix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com X-Mailer: Perl5 Mail::Internet v1.23 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:57654 comp.sys.next.announce:4049 comp.sys.next.hardware:27256 comp.sys.next.software:28075 comp.sys.next.misc:25070 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25371 comp.sys.next.bugs:4197 comp.sys.next.programmer:22747 Topics include: Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site eduSTEP WWW site NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site comp.sys.next newsgroups related newsgroups comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list ftp sites NeXTanswers Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site =============================================== This online community resource includes - ISV company pages - ISV product descriptions - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages - Mailing List archives and information You can connect via the world wide web at: http://www.stepwise.com/ Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com If you would like to get your company and product information on Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com. eduSTEP WWW site ================ http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/ eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on: - NextStep tools and projects for scientists. - Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist). - A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with customers in the educational community. - Conferences, meetings, workshops - Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a NextStep scientific work environment - Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation of OpenStep now being developed NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site ============================ http://www.next.com comp.sys.next.* newsgroups ========================== news:comp.sys.next.advocacy This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc. news:comp.sys.next.announce Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.) This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability. Archives are available by ftp at ftp://ftp.stepwise.com/pub/Next_Announce_Archives Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted to any other comp.sys.next groups. news:comp.sys.next.bugs A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well. news:comp.sys.next.hardware Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals, and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for. news:comp.sys.next.marketplace NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups. news:comp.sys.next.misc For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no crossposting!!! news:comp.sys.next.programmer Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material. Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest. news:comp.sys.next.software This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run on NEXTSTEP systems. news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software. Related Newsgroups ================== news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP. news:comp.lang.objective-c Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc. news:comp.object Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to it.) Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups. Getting the Newsgroups without getting News =========================================== Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are now available as a mailing list digest as well. next-nextstep next-advocacy next-announce next-bugs next-hardware next-marketplace next-misc next-programmer next-software next-sysadmin object lang-objective-c (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com). The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's. To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying: subscribe where * is the name of the list e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com The ftp sites ============= ftp://ftp.next.peak.org - The main site for North American submissions formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de: - (Peanuts) Located in Germany. ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next - Peanuts mirror in the US ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group) ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep ftp://ftp.next.com: - See below ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com ===================================== [from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help] Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system! This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and other software, which are then sent to you automatically. You can request documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS. NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system. Requests sent to it are answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being. NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests. USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to nextanswers@next.com. Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead. To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the body of the message. You can request several files in a single message. You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message. These commands affect the way that files you request are sent: ASCII causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text SPLIT splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME Message/Partial specification REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system: HELP returns this help file INDEX returns the list of all available files INDEX BY DATE returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest SEARCH keywords lists all files that contain all the keywords you list (ignoring capitalization) For example, a message with the following Subject line requests three files: Subject: 2101 2234 1109 A message with this body requests the same three files be sent as ASCII text files: 2101 2234 1109 ascii This message requests two lists of files, one for each search: Subject: SEARCH Dell SCSI SEARCH NetInfo domain NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line. To use a different address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command REPLY-TO If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and follow the instructions. You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID numbers of the files you want. You can also request a list of available files. When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the files will be faxed to you. If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada. USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web server at URL http://www.next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README. If you have problems using this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com. USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965. Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section. From there you can download NeXTanswers documents. FOR MORE HELP... If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S. call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician. If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must make this call to the hotline. Otherwise, hotline support is on a pay-per-call basis. Thanks for using NeXTanswers! _________________________________________________________________ Written by: Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com ) Additions from: Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com ) Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net ) Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com ) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Referencing externs from loaded bundle on OpenStep/NT - how? Date: 16 Feb 1997 05:01:45 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 40 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5e64bp$t62@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca16-22.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Feb 15 11:01:45 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) schack@eldar.arc.ab.ca (Brian Schack) wrote: > Well, I've just discovered the answer. The answer is given by NeXT's > OPENSTEP/NT Developer FAQ, Entry Number: 2462, under the question: > > Q: Why do I get a segmentation fault when trying to use a bundle? > > A: There is a problem with code in a bundle trying to access global > variables in the main application. Typically, when the bundle > code tries to access the global variable, you will get a > segmentation fault. The solution is to put these global symbols > into a framework and link both the application and the bundle > against the framework. You must also implement additional > declarations (given in the next question) to export symbols other > than class and category names from your frameworks. This "hack" works for global variables, but how does one, in a dynamically-loaded module, subclass a class that's defined in the main executable? For example, IB defines attributes inspector classes for various UI objects (e.g. IBButtonInspector). Under Mach, we take advantage of this inspector classes when we write palettes that contain button subclasses. We start with the button attribute inspector nib included with IB, unparse the inspector class to generate a suitable header, subclass and add one or more ivars. We add an appropriate UI to the standard button attribute inspector panel, change the class of the File's Owner to our own IBButtonInspector subclass, build, and load into IB. Works great under Mach. But under OS/NT, our IBButtonInspector subclass fails to build due to a link error: IBButtonInspector not defined. Certainly there must be a "hack" that will solve this problem. Since source to IB isn't available, we can't create a DLL that defines IBButtonInspector and load that into our palette. Any suggestions? -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 OPENSTEP/NT Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uwm.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newsrelay.netins.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: 15 Feb 1997 18:44:44 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5e5hpc$isr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu In article <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > Even better, Mac users can install a version of Rhapsody that will not > include a path to Unix, I.e., Terminal.app? > so they never have to soil their hands with the > greasy innards of the new OS. Boy, would that be a mistake. Better to install it (possibly in some out-of-the-way place that you'd never notice) and just not use it. It might come in handy someday if your system gets totally hosed and the tech-support guy needs to tell you to go in and fix something. I'm sure that Apple can come up with nice GUI replacements for most routine administrative tasks, but I doubt they'd be able to handle every contingency and bizarre way in which you might screw up your system. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news From: Marc Slemko Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: making Apache work with NeXT Date: 16 Feb 1997 10:02:34 GMT Organization: University of Alberta Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5e6lvq$mp2@pulp.ucs.ualberta.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: gpu5.srv.ualberta.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 (NOV) There is no one in the Apache development group that uses the NeXT platform a lot. That means that we have no clue how to make it work properly on various versions of the NeXT OS. I don't even know what these versions that we should worry about may be. We added some fixes to the previous beta that fixed some things on some NeXT boxes but broke the compile on others. I would guess that there are a bunch of different versions around that have incompatabilities between them. The currently released beta is available at: http://www.apache.org/dist/apache_1.2b6.tar.gz We have reports of it failing with: In file included from http_main.c:108: /NextDeveloper/Headers/bsd/netinet/tcp.h:57: duplicate member `th_off' /NextDeveloper/Headers/bsd/netinet/tcp.h:58: duplicate member `th_x2' make: *** [http_main.o] Error 1 I would appreciate it if people who have some experience with various versions of the OS and porting software to it could test this and suggest changes that will make it work on the widest possible range of NeXT boxes. Note that I have no way to test these myself, but will try to get some idea of what is the right way and fix it for the next beta. Thanks. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!Gamma.RU!srcc!Radio-MSU.net!news.phys.msu.su!news.free.net!jupiter.nic.dtag.de!news.mediahaus.de!news From: piers@ilink.de (Piers Uso Walter) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System X-Nntp-Posting-Host: elmo.mediahaus.de Message-ID: Sender: news@mediahaus.de (News System) Reply-To: piers@iqweb.de Organization: Mediahaus Stroebel in Duesseldorf (Germany) References: <5e3bou$emo$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> Date: Sat, 15 Feb 1997 17:47:14 GMT Lines: 28 In article <5e3bou$emo$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) writes: > > Maybe the _real_ solution is to come up with a different extension > separator (say a \?), keep the . as a generic character usable > anywhere in a filename, use the \ to demarcate the "extension", and > have a utility encouraging users to remove any \ characters they may > have used in file names. (I just checked my 10,000-file hard drive, > and no files contain the \ character, even though it's a legal Mac > filename character.) Well, there's nothing that keeps you from using a . in a filename in OPENSTEP. I regularly use filenames like 970212.financing.rtf, 970214.shortterm.imp, and 970215.landscape.jpeg (the extensions being rtf, imp and jpeg respectively). Thinking about this I only see two limitations: 1. file name extensions may not contain a . 2. filenames that should have no extension may not contain a . -- -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- "I think people are happy using Windows, and that's an extremely depressing thought." -= Steve Jobs, 1/96 =- Piers Uso Walter ilink GmbH piers@ilink.de -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in2.uu.net!207.18.128.2!news.netrunner.net!cerebal.hippocampus.net!news1.econnect.ca!not-for-mail From: markr@connor-clark.com (Mark Ritchie) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Tutorial Question Date: 13 Feb 1997 15:14:43 GMT Organization: eConnect Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5dvb53$705$1@news1.econnect.ca> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.186.48.244 "Mark Jenkins" writes > [munch...] > However, when I click the Convert Button the result that is placed in > the "Amount in Other Currency" field displays :NaN (What does this > indicate?) > What did I do wrong? NaN means 'Not a Number'. You've probably missed a connection in IB. Check that the 'Amount in Other Currency' field is actually connected. Hope that helps... M. -- Mark Ritchie - OPENSTEP Developer - Diamond Lake Consulting Currently under contract to Connor, Clark and Co. Ltd. email:markr@connor-clark.com phone: 416-956-9325 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!solaaa65 From: jrichmond@i-way.co.uk (Jeff Richmond) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: tcpdump 3.0 - won't recognize en0 Date: Sun, 16 Feb 97 22:21:01 GMT Organization: UUNet PIPEX server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet PIPEX) Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5e819k$pe9@join.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ag004.du.pipex.com X-Newsreader: News Xpress 2.0 Beta #2 Keyword: tcpdump, ethernet Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:28082 comp.sys.next.programmer:22753 Hi folks. I've successfully compiled tcpdump 3.0 including the Berkley Packet Filter that comes with it. When I try to run it, I get the following: en0: No such device or address In gdb, its get to a line in pcap-bpf.c with the following: ioctl(fd,BIOCSETIF, (caddr_t) &ifr); This call is failing for some reason but I don't know why. The ifr structure has a valid ifr_name = 'en0'. Any ideas? Oh, I have also created devices in /dev for bpf0 and bpf1 under number 32. I just did a mknod, don't know if anything else is requried there ... note that I have installed the bpf LKS that comes with PPP, should I not load that? Cheers, Jeff Richmond #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: tcpdump 3.0 - won't recognize en0 Date: 16 Feb 1997 23:03:49 GMT Organization: Frank's Area 51 Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5e83ol$bi7@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <5e819k$pe9@join.news.pipex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: jrichmond@i-way.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:28083 comp.sys.next.programmer:22754 In <5e819k$pe9@join.news.pipex.net> Jeff Richmond wrote: > Hi folks. I've successfully compiled tcpdump 3.0 including the Berkley Packet > Filter that comes with it. When I try to run it, I get the following: > > en0: No such device or address > > In gdb, its get to a line in pcap-bpf.c with the following: > > ioctl(fd,BIOCSETIF, (caddr_t) &ifr); > > This call is failing for some reason but I don't know why. The ifr structure > has a valid ifr_name = 'en0'. Any ideas? Oh, I have also created devices in > /dev for bpf0 and bpf1 under number 32. I just did a mknod, don't know if > anything else is requried there ... note that I have installed the bpf LKS > that comes with PPP, should I not load that? > > Cheers, > > Jeff Richmond > See the NS BPF package on http://www.this.net/~frank/next_cap.html as it was adapted/rewritten by Satoshi Adachi (or the original site in Japan at ftp://ftp.aa.ap.titech.ac.jp/pub/adachi/ ). A vanilla BPF will not work on NS. -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 10:33:12 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 80 Message-ID: <33079938.783E@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22755 comp.sys.mac.system:199968 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61747 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4106 Steve Barnet wrote: > > Ian Joyner wrote: > > > But in this case I expect the OS to alert the user to decide to close > > down certain processes. This decision is beyond the operating system > > to make, and it is certainly far beyond the scope of an application > > program. > > Which user? Your assumption will only hold for a desktop system. Well no, it holds for multi-user systems. In production systems an error will be reported to the user of the process, but they will probably not be able to change the environment due to security restrictions. So the system operator will probably also be notified. But here we really are getting into matters of policy in how a particular site is run. However, the point is that what I am suggesting applies to both single user and multi user systems. > Furthermore, there's no guarantee there will be a user. What about > systems that sit in a closet and sling bytes (we call them servers)? > Having a message pop up that says "A program can't get enough memory, > which of these 500 processes should die" is not acceptable as > > 1) No one's at the box This is a good point, but then what is your program going to do? After all processes have the same security restrictions. The only way is to ask for manual resolution from someone who has enough security clearance. > 2) who decides what dies? - If any Joe User can go postal because his > program has asked for too much memory then we have a completely > unacceptable security problem. The sysadmin will not likely be > sitting in front of the box - what now? Well to start with, you might not have to kill anything. An experienced operator might have other tricks that can bring the system back to an acceptable mode. This could be suspending certain processes (such as compiles say) to allow other processes to run to completion and free up memory. And your average Joe User will probably not have priviledges to abuse the system. > > So what is the application program going to do because a > > malloc has failed due to environmental factors beyond its control? > > > > Fail gracefully: log an error message (in a logfile or errorfile) > and exit. Yes, but let's try everything else first. Never should the first process that receives an out of memory error just be told to die gracefully. It might be some other process that has gone rampant that is causing the problem. The approaches taken by Unix and most other OSs seem inherently dangerous to me. Supposing that the process terminated is critical. In this case the operator has not been given the chance to suspend or terminate other non-critical processes. > The alternative you describe assumes (at least) two things: there's a > user at the box all the time, the user at the box is able to make an > acceptable decision. In multi-user environments those assumptions simply > don't hold. I think you are talking about 'batch' environments. In that case you have to decide in advance in which ways your system will degrade, and maybe you might implement an auto manager which knows what is running in the system, and manages those resources. If certain problems occur, it can use some heuristics for getting out of the mess. If you don't have this, you must rely on human intervention. Whether a system is batch, multi or single user, it is just unacceptable to terminate a process due to resource shortages. You might be executing an innocent victim. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!swrinde!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Broken Pipe? Date: 16 Feb 1997 23:33:03 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5e85ff$r8h@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <5co1u2$kpn$1@inet-prime.comshare.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: hansm@icgned.nl > The most common problem in this type of exercise is stdio buffering in the > shell script. You'd test the shell script in a Terminal window and it'll > work fine (because then you get line buffering). Then you use it at the > far end of a pipe and it'll fail, because then you get block buffering. > > A few unix utilities allow you to turn off buffering, for example cat uses > the -u option to do that. But cat is in a minority here. > > It would be nice if there were a way to tell stdio to not buffer the stdout > stream (an enviromnet variable maybe?). AFAIK, there is no such mechanism. > > Hope this helps, > > -- HansM > Use fflush() to force buffer flushing. Use setbuf() to get control of buffering. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!usenet From: Bill Keller Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Windows Native Controls through OpenStep ? Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 07:52:29 -0600 Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3308629D.2DAC@okstate.edu> References: <3326541822.31250673@cornut.fr> NNTP-Posting-Host: stf-dialup02.cvm.okstate.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Sender: Bill Keller (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (WinNT; I) X-Priority: Normal Roger Flattin wrote: > I'm asking these questions because we are looking at OpenStep to develop > client/serveur application which doesn't make intensive use of graphics. Some > we have no direct need to use DPS. Then you should use d'ole. It lets you build back-end ole objects using Objective-C and FoundationKit, but you can use anything to do the front end. D'ole comes with interface examples for C++ and Visual Basic. D'ole comes with Openstep enterprise. -- Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu) --------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 16:25:34 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 62 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <5dfhrg$73v@horus.ecmwf.int> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22758 comp.sys.mac.system:199994 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4107 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61752 On 7 Feb 1997 15:30:56 GMT, Mike Connally wrote: >In article <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, glhansen@copper.ucs.indiana.edu >(Gregory Loren Hansen) writes: >|> If Apple put a nice GUI on any Unix, and provided control panels and menus >|> to manipulate and administrate the system, you'd never know. > >You're forgetting the second (or maybe the first) major >advantage of MacOS over UNIX: the filesystem. A pretty >face can be painted on UNIX, in theory (if not yet in >practice), but injecting a robust object-oriented filesystem >is another matter entirely. Unlike other environments, has anybody taken a closer look at Linux? Linux can support a sh*tload of filesystems *NOW* (though Apple's HFS ain't one of them- yet) so there's nothing implicit in Unix that makes this impossible. Unix has had a tendency to make a file a simple "array of bytes" making the internal structure of a file something the OS doesn't pay attention to. It can be argued that placing aheader on a file will do the trick (as is used w/i Thoroughbred BASIC and other such systems) but this denies the ability to use existing filters on a file. If you hide the resource fork w/i the filesystem, there is a call named ioctl() that allows additional information about a file (usually devices) to be accessed; A file system that allows this normal system call to manipulate the i-node of a file (so we'd have to update the inode structure; Big Deal) would render the Unix system Mac-friendly. >UNIX filesystems typically provide no metadata structures >analogous to the MacOS resource forks. BeOS attempts to >provide something like this, but I believe it's done with >a bolt-on database, not as a native part of the filesystem >structure. NeXT may do something similar (I don't know) >but again, it's likely to be a bolt-on. Like I point out above, this isn't that big a deal. Sure, it's kinda like an add-on (though it isn't really, since it'd be an embedded feature of the file system) but it's a part of the system as a whole. We just use the i-node table as a database. If Linux's ext2 file system is ready for ACLs, there's nothing stopping it from acquiring the "resource fork" or other extended information about a file... >Rhapsody must provide all of the human interface correctness >of MacOS along with at least as good a filesystem architecture >before I'll be interested. So? Unix *has* a very powerful file system paradigm that is easily mutated to take on the feature(s) you're looking for. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 16:30:37 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtva$u31@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22759 comp.sys.mac.system:200001 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61754 On 6 Feb 1997 19:45:30 -0500, Nathan M. Urban wrote: >In article <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > >> As I stated in my original post, a POSIX subsystem is fine. A Unix >> directory tree appearing on my hard drive after a standard install is >> not. > >I don't understand why not, considering that it doesn't take up that >much more disk space, allows you to run any Unix programs you may wish >to run in the future, is required by the OS to boot and do other >administrative things, and doesn't even need to be seen by you. If you don't want your user to see the "Unix Tree" it's real simple: hide the directories. Either that or the "system folder" would provide a symlink to the true root directory while a user normally lives only in his "home" directory (sure, there's only one user, so big deal!). Perhaps some MacUsers cannot handle the *concept* of a CLI that provides additional visibility... There are enough times w/ Windoze where I'm so impatient I just open up a DOS CLI and deal with the actions I want to take instead of banging my brains out against the File Mangler. While the Mac is more mature, there *are* times when I wish I had a Unix-like toolset for doing dirty deeds. Mind you, I've an extensive MS-DOG toolset that's based on Unix, much of it written by me... -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 16:32:31 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dal9c$bd1$3@majipoor.cygnus.com> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22760 comp.sys.mac.system:200002 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4108 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61755 On Thu, 06 Feb 1997 22:23:19 -0800, Joel Klecker wrote: > >Hmm, I wasn't aware that "Reality Distortion Field.app" shipped with >NEXTSTEP. :-) I though Jobs was a walking reality distortion field... Though I've worked in a place where a manager had the honesty to refer to the conference room as the "holodeck". -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.kei.com!news.thenet.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!uucp1.uu.net!world!rpk From: rpk@world.std.com (Robert P. Krajewski) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 03:29:41 GMT Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 References: <5dtd3v$pc2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <2938717302@hoult.actrix.gen.nz> Nntp-Posting-Host: ppp0a024.std.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Organization: The World @ Software Tool & Die X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Lines: 9 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22761 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61756 comp.sys.mac.system:200012 In article , handleym@apple.com (Maynard Handley) wrote: >However NTFS has unlimited extended attributes which could trivially be >used to hold creator/type info, multiple forks etc. Yes, NTFS definitely supports multiple forks (as multiple data streams). It would be cool if the canonical Rhapsody file system could support all the properties that MacOS HFS does. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.enteract.com!chi-news.cic.net!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!sonybc!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.lava.net!poha014.lava.net!user From: dfrick@lava.net (Doug Frick) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sun, 16 Feb 1997 17:51:42 -1000 Organization: LavaNet, Inc. Lines: 30 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5e3bou$emo$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: poha014.lava.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22762 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61757 comp.sys.mac.system:200014 In article <5e3bou$emo$1@newz.oit.unc.edu>, scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) wrote: [...] >Maybe the _real_ solution is to come up with a different extension >separator (say a \?), keep the . as a generic character usable >anywhere in a filename, use the \ to demarcate the "extension", and >have a utility encouraging users to remove any \ characters they may >have used in file names. (I just checked my 10,000-file hard drive, >and no files contain the \ character, even though it's a legal Mac >filename character.) This prompts me to ask some questions: -- What will happen with directory/folder syntax in fully qualified filenames in Rhapsody? I.e., Projects:hacks:foo.c v. /projects/hacks/foo.c. -- What about case sensitivity in filenames? -- What about newlines? What does NeXT use? CR v. LF: is it a problem? I suppose that when Rhapsody switches to a new file system, then some sort of API and translation layer could handle some of this. But I haven't seen any commentary on these issues yet by anybody. -- Doug Frick dfrick@pfr.com dfrick@lava.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 15:34:50 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 129 Message-ID: <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200030 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4109 comp.sys.next.programmer:22763 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61761 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 14-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > > Well rebooting is an admission of failure in the OS, either by implementation > > but even worse by design, and in this case it sounds like it's by design. > > Operating systems fail when the machine is not provided adequate > resources for the tasks that it's supposed to perform. Polite operating > systems fail in a reasonably graceful way that may even allows you to > correct the problem without rebooting, which is what NEXTSTEP does. > > Other operating systems tend to panic or lock up. If NextSTEP does this good. However, don't lump all other OSs into the panic and lock up variety. OSs should provide a decent level of resilliance to resource failure. However, you are right that there comes a point when failure will occur. How does an OS cope with ... whoops all my processors just disappeared. Or if the disk where a critical OS segment must be loaded from disappears (unless you have sufficient replication). > >> Handle how? Specificly what should the OS do when open() fails instead > >> of returning EACCESS? > > > > I explained that in my original post... to explain, the OS is responsible > > for maintaining the environment and resources within which an application > > runs. If the operating system is not handling such common cases > > and expecting an application to handle them, it is not providing > > a very good environment, and so its whole raison d'etre for existence > > is in question. > > Apparently, you seem to think the OS should ask the user via an alert > panel to browse the filesystem in order to specify where the missing > file is. Do you agree that this was your suggestion? Not exactly. The OS should ask the user/an operator what to do, locate the file, kill the process, ignore the file and continue. You have quite a few options. > But what happens if there isn't a user? Should the process block > indefinitely until someone notices that the machine is wedged? That is preferrable to killing the process, which is an extreme form of blocking and you will still have to wait for someone to come and fix it. Or do you mean that the process will be killed and automatically restarted. This is a possibility, but of course the condition that killed the original process might still be in effect. In this case the operator has a much harder job of trying to prevent the continual loop of [kill process; restart process]*. Whichever way you are still blocked. > What happens if the file exists, but the OS refuses to allow the process > to access the file because the process does not have the appropriate > permissions? Are you saying that it's the OS' responsibility to allow > the process to access the file anyway? NO! In that case the process gets a NO FILE. If access to the file is not there. I don't want to give someone a hint that it is actally present or not. That is a security violation in itself. In that case if the user has sufficient system priviledges, they could change the files permissions. Or in a multi-user environment, they could contact an operator who has priviledges. That is better than crashing the application system wouldn't you agree. Particularly if this is some kind of long calculation, database reorg, etc. > [ ... ] > >> I assume you're just talking about the first case, where malloc() fails. > >> Polite applications warn the user that they couldn't get the memory > >> they needed, and they abort the operation being attempted, and return to > >> their main event loop. > > > > Since this is a case that should be handled by every running task, > > why burden the application programmer with this task: > > Because not all tasks will want to handle a particular error condition > in the same way? But what I am saying is that you can do a good OS design by evaluating all those ways, and then giving the option (which might also include some automatic policy that circumvents the user/operator). > [ ... ] > >> You've acknowledged that the OS should not perform inappropriate actions > >> when encountering an exception since you gave the specific example of > >> killing processes, but you don't appear to realize that your suggestions > >> that the OS perform some other action beyond reporting the exceptional > >> condition means that the OS will do things which are inappropriate for > >> some tasks-- thus, the contradiction. > > > > No, you don't make sense here: you are attempting to contrive some > > contradition. If the OS reports the problem, it is asking the user > > for some help, without having to bother the application. And the > > kinds of conditions I am talking about are problems with resources, > > the exact entity that it is the OSs job to manage. In order to > > prove your asserted contradiction you would have to show what is > > inappropriate for the OS to handle in any of the example scenarios > > I have given. > > Very good. I'll be happy to do so: > > Consider a machine like a web server, which does not have a user or > administrator on the console. It's the responsibility of the > programmers to write the web server so that it returns a 4xx code > indicating that the requested resource was not found. > > It would be completely inappropriate for the web server to stop running > and pop up an alert panel that some file could not be found, and wait > for someone to tell the program what to do. Yes, but if you go back through my posts you'll find that I allow for that situation. Sorry, but I have deleted the rest of the post, it just smacks of a personalised flame war, which I don't want to get dragged into, is irrelevant and will bore most readers (and myself). ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 00:59:26 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 74 Message-ID: <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-181.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22764 comp.sys.mac.system:200037 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61763 Charles William Swiger wrote: ] Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & ] Unix: File S.. by Peter Moller@dna.lth.se ] >> The reason it seems unthinkable is because it's not necessarily the ] >> real solution. You're talking about taking what is, at its core, a ] >> high-level mapping (applications to file types), and trying to ] >> embed them into a low-level system that has historically dealt only ] >> with the organization and management of the raw bits into ] >> directories and ] > ] > Well, maybee you are right, but let us at least agree that an update ] > of the file system in which a time stamp for *when the file was ] > created* (to complement the three time stamps that exist in the Unix ] > file system describing when the file was last accesses, modified and ] > referenced - if memory serves me) is added would be needed?! ] ] The "last modified" timestamp is generally used as the time when the ] file was created, and the two are equivalent in the case of files that ] have never been modified. If you care about keeping exact track of ] earlier revisions of a file for whatever reason, you can use a ] revision control system. It will keep track of all (or some) of the ] intermediate versions and their timestamps. ] ] Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the ] timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file when ] you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified version. ] Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care about that ] timestamp? A very simple and quit answer is when you have two files with basically the same information and have modified both since their creation and want to know which file is newer. -snip busy file comments- ] > The UFS has it's strengths, especially when coupled with NFS over ] > TCP/IP, but that does not mean it cannot be improved. ] ] Certainly. I don't have any objections to augmenting the UFS in order ] to implement the Mac's current creator and filetype attributes. I ] think it's likely that Apple will do something along those lines ] because it would simplify the transition for Mac users who expect to ] see those in Rhapsody. ] ] However, those Mac attributes are not adequate for handling the ] document-to-application mapping under a multiuser OS for reasons that ] we've already been through. Given that this is the case, I expect to ] see that there will continue to exist something at a higher level ] which lets users select on an individual basis which applications they ] would prefer to have open various document types. I think the Mac attributes are ADEQUATE for d-t-a mapping, they just aren't spectacular. And to make it spectacular you HAVE to have the type/creator. Now how and where those 8 bytes are stored is a totally different question. And (of themselves) almost totally irrelevant. ] Such a system could rely on just the file extension if the Mac-like ] creator/filetype attributes are not available or are not recognized ] [consider a file that has been FTP'ed or is being accessed via a ] remote filesystem like NFS, AFS, etc], but could also pay attention to ] the Mac attributes if they are available and valid. That seems to ] combine the desirable features without changing the way either current ] Mac users or current NEXTSTEP users like to have things work.... I've seen this "accessed via a remote filesystem" argument used before and have never really understood it. If the computer at the other end is a Rhapsody machine then I'd expect the additional information to be passed along, if it isn't a R.M. then what kind of file is being accessed where the person getting it doesn't know what it is? -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 7 Feb 1997 16:40:10 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 47 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5ddpn1$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAD8FA.2C40@subsequent.com> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22765 comp.sys.mac.system:200052 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61774 On Fri, 07 Feb 1997 02:25:46 -0500, "Jonathan W. Hendry" wrote: >John Siracusa wrote: >> >> William Edward Woody (woody@alumni.caltech.edu) wrote: > >> : But get this: Mach is *NOT* Unix. Mach has been used to build a Unix >> : compatable OS, and most people tend to build off of a Unix client >> : built on top of the Mach kernel because that's what most of us >> : programmers are familiar with. >> >> Granted, kernel and system calls are fine. What I'm concerned about >> most is the support even simple Unix-isms like shell scripts require >> in order to work. IMO, this support system is not worth the small >> advantages that a few advanced users will receive because it constrains >> the rest of the OS too much. > >How, exactly, does it 'constrain the rest of the OS too much'? How, >exactly, has it constrained NeXTSTEP? AFAIK (non-authoritative, but I'll pontificate any chance I get) It's the *way* that NeXT implemented the resource/data forks for a file by hiding the file in a subdirectory. This qualifies as a hack and required re-working the "unix-like" utility set. Mach, being a micro-kernel architecture, provides greater ability to take advantage of multiprocessor systems (DEC Unix is a good case in point) and can wear a Unix-like face w/o difficulty (if you're gonna place one on); All that is needed is to intercept the SVID calls and map them onto the Mach API. What bugs me is that no effort was apparently expended on the file system; With the source for Mach would come the ability to doink with the file system internal structures, adding the desired "forks" directly to the file system. Remember, an OS is *not* a filesystem; It merely allows them to be layered on top of devices. What's most important it to take advantage of these layers in the most productive way possible. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!infonie.fr!usenet From: "Olivier Malcor" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: OOFS would be nice Date: 17 Feb 1997 11:59:47 GMT Organization: INFONIE Lines: 20 Message-ID: <01bc1cc1$91388ec0$2510c00a@olivier> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.192.16.37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 These are just ideas... The following sentences contain at least once the word "would" each. An object-oriented FS would be nice. The disks would be partitionned into object stores, allowing applications to peek into these stores to edit objects (instead of files). This would lead to a true object persistence system... sthg like an OO database. A store would contain indexes to objects, taking their key values on the value returned from some given methods (similarly to what IXRecordManager was trying to do in NS3.x)... so this would allow querying a store to get a selection of objects responding to some given criterion, instead of merely getting a list of files in a directory. Having OODBMS features into the core of the operating system would be great. Wouldn't it be? om #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!rain.fr!ai.alienor.fr!xlan!news From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr Subject: MouseDown+Drag and SHIFT!! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hp-712-60 Message-ID: Sender: news@x-lan.alienor.fr Organization: x&lan X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8a) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:25:26 GMT Lines: 37 My mouseDown looks like: mouseDown:theEvent { oldMask = [window addToEventMask:NX_MOUSEDRAGGEDMASK]; while (shouldLoop) { newEvent = [NXApp getNextEvent:(NX_MOUSEUPMASK |NX_MOUSEDRAGGEDMASK|NX_MOUSEEXITEDMASK)] ; switch (newEvent->type){ case NX_MOUSEUP: {...} case NX_MOUSEDRAGGED: { /*Heavy drawing here*/ mouseDownLocation = theEvent->location; /*next I use mouseDownLocation for drawing. But I'd like to use the real mouse position (cursor position?) because there is a shift between the real position of the mouse(cursor) and the point I'm using.*/ } }}} Thanks for help. -- --------------------------------------- | O_O | O_O -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Fred Galot fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 07:34:14 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9cre$if1@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5e9cre$if1@horus.ecmwf.int> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22768 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61779 comp.sys.mac.system:200059 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Mike Connally@ecmwf.int >> One wonders if that's a good thing. One of the largest problems with >> the Mac filesystem is that it's a huge pain trying to transfer files to >> other platforms in a meaningful way. > > What problem is that? Other systems (e.g. UNIX) want to see > a byte stream, which is what exists in the data fork of a Mac > file. [ ... ] Apps are another matter, of course. That "of course" is why the Mac forks are a problem. Either you can put _any_ file on a remote system like an Auspex NFS server, and have it work correctly, or else some crucial parts of what's on a Mac filesystem cannot be stored on remote fileservers because they won't work correctly. I think it would be good if Rhapsody did not suffer from the same heterogenous interoperability problems that Macs currently suffer from trying to share files on non-Mac filesystems. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.66.12.35!news-in.iadfw.net!PPP-account!wharris From: wharris@mail.airmail.net (Billy Harris) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 06:58:31 -0600 Organization: Internet America (and a UTA student) Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> NNTP-Posting-Host: fw2-25.ppp.iadfw.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22769 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61781 comp.sys.mac.system:200065 In article <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier>, "Olivier Malcor" wrote: >>Among the data stored in the application segments (see above), are the >information on which kind of document (file extension) one given app can >open. For example, PhotoShop.app could open ".tiff", ".eps", ".gif"..., >IconBuilder.app could open ".tiff" documents only. The user can choose a >default application (among those able) to open a given kind of document. >This is a user's preference. > >Once more, you have the choice. If you prefer, you can command-drag your >file icon onto a running or "docked" application icon to have it opened in >a different app. I think a lot of people (both NeXt and Mac) don't realize how often you will want different applications to open different files of the same type. A while ago, I drew a funky space picture. The background was a landscape created in KPT Byrce. The space ship was a model from RayDream Designer. I composed the final scene with Photoshop and added the flames and a laser bolt. The point is, that directory had many PICT files. Double-clicking on the space-ship picture should (and does) open RayDream Designer. Double-clicking on the landscape picture should (and does) open KPT Byrce. Double-clicking on the composite picture should (and does) open Photoshop. This behavior is easy to achieve with a creator field, but if I could only choose a single application for a pict file, I'd go crazy waiting for the wrong program to open, quitting, locating the correct program, and dragging the file to the program. -- Billy Harris wharris@mail.airmail.net wharris@vega.uta.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!p9.ts15.metro.ma.tiac.com!user From: ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu (Noah M. Daniels) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Subject: Looking for display driver for Compaq notebook Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:24:34 -0500 Organization: Noah's Ark Lines: 30 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: p9.ts15.metro.ma.tiac.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.hardware:27277 comp.sys.next.programmer:22770 comp.sys.next.software:28094 I was wondering if anyone can help me - I'm looking for a display driver for a Compaq Contura notebook. None of the drivers included with the OPENSTEP/Mach 4.1 release support any better than black-and-white on the display, though the hardware can handle 8-bit color at 640x480. If I select the Western Digital LCD display driver, it's looking for 1 meg of VRAM, which is more than my notebook has. If I edit the memory maps in 'expert settings' to tell it to look for 300K of VRAM (if the machine supports 640x480x8b it must have at least 300K of VRAM) it still doesn't work; on reboot (either looking for 1 meg or 300K of VRAM) it warns of something like 'unsupported memory width' and defaults to the default VGA driver (which is why I'm getting black and white). Has anyone gotten the Western Digital LCD driver to work with a Compaq Contura 420C notebook or anything similar? Or has anyone attepted to write a driver for this machine? It's a decently solid machine and OPENSTEP handles nicely on it (as long as you stay away from the hardware suspend/hibernate commands, which are flaky with OPENSTEP) and it'd be nice to get OPENSTEP running on it (since the desktop box it had been installed on croaked). Thanks in advance! -- -- Noah M. Daniels ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/ "He was a brave man who first ate an oyster" - Jonathan Swift "Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in wonder" - Socrates #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 97 09:15:37 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 40 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22771 comp.sys.mac.system:200111 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61795 shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >_doesn't_ justify putting that information in _the_ filesystem. This >thread has had suggestions which accomplish the same things over top >of the existing filesystem, rather than by modifying things at a low ^^^^^^^^^ >level. Well, this is a question: Apple (50 million claimed users) buys NeXT (a couple of millions users ?). Apple has one file system, NeXT another. I assume that the unified company will end up having one filesystem. Which one? Either way, one of them will have to change. As a Mac user, I don't see it as a modification to have a created time stamp. I under- stand that you, as a unix user, will view such a thing as a change. And I will, in my turn, view it as a change to not have it and have three time stamps for last change etc. instead. It's a matter of perspective. > This is not a question of "who's right", but rather "how do we make > both happy?" >Well, except that I'm trying to argue that you shouldn't be unhappy >with how it's currently done (in Unix) :-). I've been a unix sysadmin since 1990, and I have missed a creation time stamp all those years. In fact, I've missed a lot of things on my Sun (as much as I have missed some unix-things on the Mac). >More broadly, though, the filesystem obviously cannot be changed to >make everyone happy. Right, but how about maintaining a file system that has been used by several millions of users for more than a decade? >Anything Apple/NeXT come out with _must_ interoperate with NFS in an >almost completely transparent fashion. _MUST_. That's not even an >option. NFS is simply too prevalent. I agree (really!) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!peer.news.u-net.net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!horus.ecmwf.int!syy From: syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 10:45:02 GMT Organization: ECMWF (European Weather Centre) Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5e9cre$if1@horus.ecmwf.int> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: thrall.ecmwf.int Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22772 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61796 comp.sys.mac.system:200113 In article <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) writes: |> In article <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: |> |> > I challenge that implication, going so far as to claim that it is |> > the Mac's multi-forked file system that has separated it from other |> > OSes. |> |> One wonders if that's a good thing. One of the largest problems with |> the Mac filesystem is that it's a huge pain trying to transfer files to |> other platforms in a meaningful way. What problem is that? Other systems (e.g. UNIX) want to see a byte stream, which is what exists in the data fork of a Mac file. In my experience, all that's required on the foreign system is to apply the appropriate naming convention, with extension as required, for the foreign system to use the file, as is. Talking data here. Apps are another matter, of course. -- Mike Connally Consultant, Data Handling Project European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF) Shinfield Park, Reading, Berks RG2 9AX England Tel: +44-1734-499253 Email: Mike.Connally@ecmwf.int #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!uwvax!news From: Steve Barnet <"mailer-daemon"@[127.0.0.1]> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:46:23 -0600 Organization: UW-Madison Space Science and Engineering Lines: 71 Message-ID: <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: oak.ssec.wisc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4c) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22773 comp.sys.mac.system:200131 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61806 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4111 Ian Joyner wrote: > > Steve Barnet wrote: > > > > Ian Joyner wrote: [points of clarification snipped] > > > So what is the application program going to do because a > > > malloc has failed due to environmental factors beyond its control? > > > > > > > Fail gracefully: log an error message (in a logfile or errorfile) > > and exit. > > Yes, but let's try everything else first. Never should the first > process that receives an out of memory error just be told to die > gracefully. > It might be some other process that has gone rampant that is causing > the problem. The approaches taken by Unix and most other OSs seem > inherently dangerous to me. Supposing that the process terminated is > critical. In this case the operator has not been given the chance to > suspend or terminate other non-critical processes. I guess that depends upon what you're talking about. Many UNIX boxen used to randomly terminate processes when resource shortages happened. This caused a howl from almost everyone as it could make graceful recovery difficult if not impossible. That's no longer the behavior of civilized systems. I think IRIX may still do this, but as I said ... I will address possibilty two below. [snip] > > Whether a system is > batch, multi or single user, it is just unacceptable to terminate a > process due to resource shortages. You might be executing an innocent > victim. > Your point is valid and UNIX provides a mechanism for not slaying innocents. Most Unices have a notion of user limits (ulimit). This enables the administrator to set resource limits on a per user basis. So to deal with your scenario (shooting an innocent (possibly crucial) bystander), it's necessary to set user limits appropriately. This can prevent a user from monopolizing the box and (if done wisely) can make sure that crucial processes still have enough room to do their thing. As an admin, the only real problem that I have with your suggestions is that they fundamentally (auto manager aside) require user interaction. The environment I admin is not really a batch environment. In most cases the users of the 90+ UNIX boxes are not priviledged users whether they sit at the machine or not. Personally, I don't want to have to spend my days managing a machine at that level (deciding which processes live or die). I don't have the time. Just my .02 monetary units. ---SteveB -- Steve Barnet--System Administrator steve.barnet@ssec.wisc.edu UW-Madison Space Science and Engineering Center I'm not a rocket scientist, but I play one on TV (608)263-2268 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!138.220.104.78!news.worldbank.org!usenet From: Stefano Pagiola Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 09:20:14 -0500 Organization: World Bank Lines: 15 Message-ID: <3308691E.51A7@worldbank.org> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5e3bou$emo$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: envgcte1.worldbank.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22774 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61807 comp.sys.mac.system:200132 scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) wrote: > Maybe the _real_ solution is to come up with a different extension > separator (say a \?), keep the . as a generic character usable > anywhere in a filename, use the \ to demarcate the "extension", No need. NeXTSTEP uses the whatever is to the right of the LAST . as the extension. I have plenty of filenames with multiple periods in them, and NeXTSTEp parses them all appropriately (eg 961021.Jones.wp is correctly identified as WordPerfect file, not a "jones.wp" file). -- Stefano Pagiola 850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:37:57 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 166 Message-ID: <3308EBD5.61F7@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200137 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4112 comp.sys.next.programmer:22775 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61808 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > >> Operating systems fail when the machine is not provided adequate > >> resources for the tasks that it's supposed to perform. Polite operating > >> systems fail in a reasonably graceful way that may even allows you to > >> correct the problem without rebooting, which is what NEXTSTEP does. > >> > >> Other operating systems tend to panic or lock up. > > > > If NextSTEP does this good. > > However, don't lump all other OSs into the panic and lock up variety > > I didn't say "all other OS's". Granted, but it was somewhat implied. > While there are a few OS's which are as stable than NEXTSTEP, the vast > majority of computer systems are running either MS Windows or MacOS-- > both of which are well known for their lack of stability. True. Please don't think that I am attacking NeXTSTEP or defending MacOS. I am merely pointing out that OS people should reexamine what OSs do, and some major rethinks should be done. > [ ... ] > >> Apparently, you seem to think the OS should ask the user via an alert > >> panel to browse the filesystem in order to specify where the missing > >> file is. Do you agree that this was your suggestion? > > > > Not exactly. The OS should ask the user/an operator what to do, locate > > the file, kill the process, ignore the file and continue. You have > > quite a few options. > > The operating system does not have the decision-making powers of a > human, and it cannot make a decision between the alternatives you've > listed-- it will only do what it's programmed to do. Therefore, you've > either got to pick _one_ of the alternatives, or else provide a > deterministic and decidable algorithm that the OS can use to select an > alternative. I think we are saying the same thing now. That is exactly what I am saying, to OS should in many situations consult a human. After all most of these kinds of conditions are operations errors, particularly in a production environment where programs should be reliable. Development environments are a bit different, and you are more likely to get run away processes causing problems, but then as you say, how does the OS determine exactly which program is at fault? However, we should all be expecting our programs to eventually run in production environments. So for example, this means that out of memory probably means an operations error, as the machine has become overloaded. Out of disk means operations has not cleaned up recently enough. > Of course, you've failed to address the crucial point I've made, which > is that _any_ of the choices you've listed will be an inappropriate > action for some processes. No matter how many choices you come up with > and how complicated the algorithm to select between them is, I'll be > able to come up with situations which require different error handling > than what you've stated that the OS should do. That's an idle threat, but even if I was to embark on this process, it does not invalidate the OS design issue I have outlined. > >> But what happens if there isn't a user? Should the process block > >> indefinitely until someone notices that the machine is wedged? > > > > That is preferrable to killing the process, which is an extreme form > > of blocking and you will still have to wait for someone to come and > > fix it. Or do you mean that the process will be killed and automatically > > restarted. This is a possibility, but of course the condition that > > killed the original process might still be in effect. In this case the > > operator has a much harder job of trying to prevent the continual > > loop of [kill process; restart process]*. Whichever way you are > > still blocked. > > But Unix doesn't block when open() fails-- it returns EACCESS > immediately, which allows to process to decide whether to continue, ask > the user for help, or do whatever else it finds appropriate, such as > terminate. > > That's a far superior solution to blocking. No it's not a far superior solution to blocking. Consider if the open fails for some hardware problem on the disk. OK, the OS passes the failure back to the process, which decides to terminate, and do nothing more. Clearly, this must notify the operator that hardware is malfunctioning, and very likely the operator can help the process out by redirecting it to another disk unit. This is much more robust than just passing the error straight back to the process, which can't do anything. > [ ... ] > >>>> I assume you're just talking about the first case, where malloc() fails. > >>>> Polite applications warn the user that they couldn't get the memory > >>>> they needed, and they abort the operation being attempted, and return to > >>>> their main event loop. > >>> > >>> Since this is a case that should be handled by every running task, > >>> why burden the application programmer with this task: > >> > >> Because not all tasks will want to handle a particular error condition > >> in the same way? > > > > But what I am saying is that you can do a good OS design by evaluating > > all those ways, and then giving the option (which might also include some > > automatic policy that circumvents the user/operator). > > (A) It's impossible for the OS designer to incorperate every possible > way that a process might want to handle every possible error condition, > and, Well you would have to prove it were impossible, but even assuming that it is, that does not mean that OSs should not have better facilities for picking up the many common situations that we are interested in. OSs that don't handle these situations, and many don't, do not provide an adequate level of robustness. > (B) even if it was possible, why would you want to bloat the OS with all > of that code when it's simpler and easier to design processes that > perform the error handling that they need? "Bloat", well Unix has already got bloated, but aside from this that is a silly comment. Why do you think that all application programs should be bloated with code that handles common problems. That adds to the code that a programmer must produce; means you have maintenance problems to handle all the cases; means you have testing problems to test all the cases; means you have just made every project much more expensive to complete (well most projects get killed anyway); and means you have missed the fundamentals of reuse. > Good operating system provide well defined interfaces to support > processes, and these interfaces should be made as small, as simple, and > as elegant as possible while still providing all of the functionality > that's needed. Complex functionality like a window system, or a math > library, or a set of error handling routines belongs in user space, not > in the kernel. > > Ever hear of modularity? Did you ever hear of modular operating systems? Do you understand what an OS kernel is? It is not where I am suggesting putting this functionality, but neither is it in the user space, although that terminology is confused as well. Much of this stuff might run in user process space, but does not need to be written as part of the application. And as for the above point, we have not changed the interface one bit, so you still don't understand my point, before you go into overdrive mode defending Unix, coming out with mindless rhetoric about small interfaces, etc. To explain the interface is still the same. The open call remains the same. What I suggest is to reevaluate the contract of the call, and determine that much of what needs to be done is common, and therefore should not be on the calling side of the interface. In fact if you think about it many errors cannot be handled by the application, they have to be handled between the OS and the operator. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!peer.news.u-net.net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!horus.ecmwf.int!syy From: syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 14:52:05 GMT Organization: ECMWF (European Weather Centre) Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: thrall.ecmwf.int Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22776 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61813 comp.sys.mac.system:200144 In article , Charles William Swiger writes: |> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & |> Unix: File S.. by Mike Connally@ecmwf.int |> >> One wonders if that's a good thing. One of the largest problems with |> >> the Mac filesystem is that it's a huge pain trying to transfer files to |> >> other platforms in a meaningful way. |> > |> > What problem is that? Other systems (e.g. UNIX) want to see |> > a byte stream, which is what exists in the data fork of a Mac |> > file. [ ... ] Apps are another matter, of course. |> |> That "of course" is why the Mac forks are a problem. |> |> Either you can put _any_ file on a remote system like an Auspex NFS |> server, and have it work correctly, or else some crucial parts of what's |> on a Mac filesystem cannot be stored on remote fileservers because they |> won't work correctly. Are you asserting that you can put _any_ file from any UNIX system on _any_ other UNIX system and have it work properly? Executables? Very very wrong. Executables are tied very closely to the OS and HW and don't happily move between platforms. What does move generally well is data. And in that respect, Mac files are as easily portable as files from any other system. Foreign systems will need to have the file contents explained to them by primitive mechanisms like filename extensions, but the data is the same. Put a Mac file onto a UNIX system, give it the appropriate filename extension, and a UNIX app can use the Mac file as-is. I have never encountered anything like the originally quoted "huge pain trying to transfer files to other platforms in a meaningful way". I suspect anyone who says that has never actually tried doing it. It's trivial. -- Mike Connally Consultant, Data Handling Project European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF) Shinfield Park, Reading, Berks RG2 9AX England Tel: +44-1734-499253 Email: Mike.Connally@ecmwf.int #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 23:40:46 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5eaq9u$ofi$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61814 comp.sys.mac.system:200145 comp.sys.next.programmer:22777 In article , Travis Butler wrote: \ To the point at hand: I think it makes a lot more sense for the default to \ be the application that created a file. Again based on my experience, \ people generally create a file with the application they want to use to \ work with it. The exceptions I see are usually data-acquisition situations \ (including working with scanned images), where you use one program to get \ the file, and a second program to manipulate it. And in many data-acquisition situations, the first program is smart enough to let you tell it what creator code to use. For example, when I download a TEXT file from White Knight, I get the creator code MSWD rather than the one for White Knight (unless it's TeX stuff, in which case I temporarily set it to TEX* instead). D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!agate!pbrown From: pbrown@ashkhabad.berkeley.edu (Paul R. Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: font-lock-mode in Terminal.app? Date: 18 Feb 1997 01:00:47 GMT Organization: data communication and networking services Lines: 14 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: ashkhabad.berkeley.edu X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.8.3 (BETA) UNIX) It seems to me that Terminal.app windows could support font-lock-mode under emacs-19.34. I don't really need mouse support, so that would be all I need. (Note that font-lock-mode it broken in Carl Edman's NeXT-ized 19.28.) Has anyone done it or can tell me how to do it? Paul -- _____________________________________________________________________ Paul Brown Grad student, UCB mathematics (510)-843-7817 pbrown@math.berkeley.edu http://math.berkeley.edu/~pbrown/ NeXTmail preferred. _____________________________________________________________________ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 01:24:50 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5eb0d2$1en@news3.digex.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61820 comp.sys.mac.system:200160 comp.sys.next.programmer:22779 tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: > I'm blathering on about this because it seems like a large number > of the arguments by NeXT partisans boil down to 'it has to be > this way if you're on a multiuser system.' Well, as I said, I > don't WANT a multiuser system; and in my experience, this holds That's very nice. And I want to be the ruler of the universe. Looks like today neither of us will get what we want. Many people can and do benefit from multiuser os's. This is the same kind of argument I used to hear from dos heads. We don't want or need GUI. Who needs it? It's useful, and if you don't like it, no one will force you to make use of it. But, for certain server level processes it's great. That way the kids, while they are on their account, won't be able to crash down the web server processes you have going. That way your mother in law won't be able to spitefully kill your tax files. etc etc. -- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed... monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | You make the best of what's still around... #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!rain.fr!infonie.fr!usenet From: "Olivier Malcor" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 11:00:01 GMT Organization: INFONIE Lines: 41 Message-ID: <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 10.192.16.37 X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22780 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61832 comp.sys.mac.system:200192 > 1) I think the resource fork is an interesting idea... In my opinion, NS manages this kind of facilities in a better way. It gives you the alternative : 1. In terms of file system, NS apps are directories (with .app extension). Of course, these directories appear as icons for the end user, but she can also open the application "as a folder" to browse into its contents (including the executable, localizable interfaces (.nib), icons, sounds, strings, and so on...). 2. The structure of Mach executables is segmented. It allows you to put resources in the file itself, just like the Mac does... For example the application icon is located in the "app" section of the "__ICON" segment. This way, you can store any kind of resources in the executable... > 2)... about opening docs... Among the data stored in the application segments (see above), are the information on which kind of document (file extension) one given app can open. For example, PhotoShop.app could open ".tiff", ".eps", ".gif"..., IconBuilder.app could open ".tiff" documents only. The user can choose a default application (among those able) to open a given kind of document. This is a user's preference. Once more, you have the choice. If you prefer, you can command-drag your file icon onto a running or "docked" application icon to have it opened in a different app. About multi-user facilities: > I think this could be implemented quite easily by simply having a few > different prefs folders and a control panel to determine which prefs > folder is being used. Perhaps because you are sharing your Mac with responsible guys. What if you were sharing some very personal/critical data with your first enemy! or with some apprentice wizard cooking on the system with no restriction! om #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:01:53 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 49 Message-ID: <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22781 comp.sys.mac.system:200194 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61834 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by John Moreno@interpath.co > ] Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the > ] timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file when > ] you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified version. > ] Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care about that > ] timestamp? > > A very simple and quit answer is when you have two files with basically > the same information and have modified both since their creation and > want to know which file is newer. The answer is whichever file was modified last, and can be answered using the last-modified timestamp; the creation timestamp isn't needed. Again, that doesn't answer my question. [ ... ] >] Such a system could rely on just the file extension if the Mac-like >] creator/filetype attributes are not available or are not recognized >] [consider a file that has been FTP'ed or is being accessed via a >] remote filesystem like NFS, AFS, etc], but could also pay attention to >] the Mac attributes if they are available and valid. That seems to >] combine the desirable features without changing the way either current >] Mac users or current NEXTSTEP users like to have things work.... > > I've seen this "accessed via a remote filesystem" argument used before > and have never really understood it. If the computer at the other end > is a Rhapsody machine then I'd expect the additional information to be > passed along, if it isn't a R.M. then what kind of file is being > accessed where the person getting it doesn't know what it is? You're missing the point. When I access a file via a remote filesystem, I shouldn't need to care whether it's a R.M or not. I should be able to use any type of fileserver without having problems, and I should be able to run executables directly off of the fileserver. Come to think of it, perhaps Apple will provide this functionality by making Rhapsody's system loader understand the AppleDouble format directly as an executable format. It's rather similar to the way NEXTSTEP handles the Mach-O and MAB (FAT binary) executable formats.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:11:14 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 86 Message-ID: <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22782 comp.sys.mac.system:200207 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61837 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4114 Steve Barnet wrote: > > Ian Joyner wrote: > > It might be some other process that has gone rampant that is causing > > the problem. The approaches taken by Unix and most other OSs seem > > inherently dangerous to me. Supposing that the process terminated is > > critical. In this case the operator has not been given the chance to > > suspend or terminate other non-critical processes. > > I guess that depends upon what you're talking about. Many UNIX boxen > used to randomly terminate processes when resource shortages happened. > This caused a howl from almost everyone as it could make graceful > recovery difficult if not impossible. That's no longer the behavior > of civilized systems. I think IRIX may still do this, but as I said ... Good. > I will address possibilty two below. > > [snip] > > > > > Whether a system is > > batch, multi or single user, it is just unacceptable to terminate a > > process due to resource shortages. You might be executing an innocent > > victim. > > > > Your point is valid and UNIX provides a mechanism for not slaying > innocents. Most Unices have a notion of user limits (ulimit). This > enables the administrator to set resource limits on a per user basis. > So to deal with your scenario (shooting an innocent (possibly crucial) > bystander), it's necessary to set user limits appropriately. This can > prevent a user from monopolizing the box and (if done wisely) can make > sure that crucial processes still have enough room to do their thing. This is a valid point about limits, and it is probably reasonable for the OS to terminate processes that overstay their welcome. (The user may have set the limit in order to minimise their computing bill). However, this is a different problem to when the system as a whole is having resource difficulties. > > > As an admin, the only real problem that I have with your suggestions is > that they fundamentally (auto manager aside) require user interaction. > The environment I admin is not really a batch environment. In most cases > the users of the 90+ UNIX boxes are not priviledged users whether they > sit at the machine or not. Personally, I don't want to have to spend my > days managing a machine at that level (deciding which processes live or > die). I don't have the time. > > Normally you won't have to. If you set up your machines well, then they will be operating within their resources. If a system is out of resources though, an operator is likely to have to get involved, and it is more likely that the users will start complaining. However, it is also perfectly valid, that you could set system options as to what the operator is notified of, or whether the OS can take automatic action. And if you don't set up your systems correctly, so that you have resource problems, then this is an operational error, and such errors are not programming errors, so it is inappropriate to send an error to a program. It is difficult enough to code programs to deal with their own internal errors, let alone have to deal with system errors. In any case, I come back to the original point, that in most cases it is inappropriate for the OS to send an error/exception back to processes that are waiting on resources, without at least trying some recovery, either automatic or with operator assistance first. If the OS doesn't do this then you do not have a very robust OS. > Steve Barnet--System Administrator steve.barnet@ssec.wisc.edu > UW-Madison Space Science and Engineering Center > I'm not a rocket scientist, but I play one on TV Good 'cause this is hardly "rocket science" :-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: 17 Feb 1997 19:47:04 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5eacjo$f6o@news.next.com> References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: mark_bessey@next.com NNTP-Posting-Host: bananajr.next.com John Siracusa writes > From MacWeek: > > Sources in the boiler room report that Rhapsody will weigh in at about > 110 Mbytes of pure chewing satisfaction and come with three levels of > Install: EZ, Minimal and Custom. Wow. I wonder how the folks at MacWeek know how much disk space Rhapsody is going to use, when it hasn't even been built yet? -- Mark Bessey Apple Computer, Inc. -->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<-- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!140.162.1.25!seismo!sed.psrw.com!news.apk.net!pm5-18.apk.net!user From: jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:34:05 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-18.apk.net X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61842 comp.sys.mac.system:200215 comp.sys.next.programmer:22784 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > For example, let's say I'm using a Sun SPARC and my company has an > Auspex fileserver. I can NFS mount the Auspex server on my Sun, and I > can run Sun SPARC executables stored on the remote machine. In fact, I > could use any type of machine as an NFS fileserver, and be able to run > SPARC binaries stored on that fileserver without any problems. > > I could use Samba and an NT fileserver instead of NFS, if I wanted. Or > I could use a Novell Netware fileserver. Again, it shouldn't matter to > me what the remote fileserver is-- I should be able to store executables > on it and be able to run them. > > However, I can't NFS mount a remote fileserver on a Mac and be able to > run Mac executables, because they require the out-of-band information > stored in their resource forks which is not representable within the > standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms. > Situation A: Remote Machine is non-Mac and stores data on a Mac based NFS server. I'd like to point to . Macnfsd is written by a good friend of mine. It is a Macintosh NFS server [if I understand the terms correctly]. What it does it only transfer the contents of the data fork. So NFS clients will still work normally. Situation B: Remote Machine is a Mac and stores data on an NFS Server I'd like to point to a commercial NFS client for the Mac . In the Macintosh section, you will see the following comments: Apple standard - NFS/Share uses Apple's defined standards (AppleSingle or AppleDouble) for representing files for foreign file systems. This simply allows Macintosh users to store files with their resource and data forks intact. According to the brochure, you will simply see it as an extension of the AppleShare Services. I don't really know how a data file is passed from a Mac NFS client to a Non-Mac NFS client. The AppleSingle/Double storage methods might cause some confusion but I'm sure there are some solutions out there. I've not played enough with NFS to know. --- The Evil Tofu (Only Human) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:47:32 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 58 Message-ID: <1997021716473229510531@roxboro-170.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-170.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22785 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61843 comp.sys.mac.system:200222 Stephen Peters wrote: ] John 'kzin' Rudd writes: ] ] > It may seem pendantic to point out the difference between "creator" ] > and what you're talking about, but it is semantically different. ] > The creator of a file is the creator of the file no matter whether ] > you like to use that application or not. If "creator" is going to ] > be recorded, then it really is an attribute of the file itself, and ] > should somehow be stored with it. ] ] Which begs the question to a die-hard Unix user like myself, if you ] add the notion of a `preferred application', what use is the `creator' ] designation other than bookkeeping? As a fallback to a known good ] application? Well for starters some applications can handle the files of a certain type created by one application but not of another - non standard usage and all that rot. ] Ditto on the various discussions on adding the `time created' field to ] augment the last modified and other time codes stored with the file. ] For me, once I start caring about the time the file was first created, ] I start caring about all the changes that were made, which seems to ] scream `revision control system' to me. (And if you copy a file from ] somewhere else, should it inherit the source file's created time?) ] ] Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Can someone help enlighten me? Because when you update a applications then look at the file it often gets translated into the newer version, this is one way of keeping track of when you started something. ] > However, each user should have the option to substitute some other ] > app, in case they don't want to use the actual applications ] > creator.. and that list of preferences would probably be best called ] > "Prefered applications" or something.. which would read something ] > like: ] > ] > I prefer Painter for Photoshop apps. Which would probably be mapped ] > like "Photoshop.app -> Painter.app", and thus when you launched a ] > file created by Photoshop, it would bring up Painter. :-} ] ] Ick. I really don't like this on an application basis. One person ] may normally look at JPEGs under Netscape, whereas I have some neat ] image utility like OmniImage that I use. That doesn't mean I want to ] set up OmniImage as a replacement for Netscape in all circumstances. Your right, and it would NEVER be done on a application or creator basis, it would be done on a file TYPE basis. But consider that often a different application won't get ALL of the information in a file right, when compared to it's creator - it's nice to know that you can always go back to the creator which is guaranteed to be able to display the information properly (assuming that you haven't modified it in some other application). -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in1.uu.net!140.162.1.25!seismo!sed.psrw.com!news.apk.net!pm5-18.apk.net!user From: jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:44:37 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5eaq9u$ofi$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-18.apk.net X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61844 comp.sys.mac.system:200223 comp.sys.next.programmer:22786 In article <5eaq9u$ofi$1@newz.oit.unc.edu>, scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) wrote: > In article , > Travis Butler wrote: > > \ To the point at hand: I think it makes a lot more sense for the default to > \ be the application that created a file. Again based on my experience, > \ people generally create a file with the application they want to use to > \ work with it. The exceptions I see are usually data-acquisition situations > \ (including working with scanned images), where you use one program to get > \ the file, and a second program to manipulate it. > > And in many data-acquisition situations, the first program is smart > enough to let you tell it what creator code to use. For example, when > I download a TEXT file from White Knight, I get the creator code MSWD > rather than the one for White Knight (unless it's TeX stuff, in which > case I temporarily set it to TEX* instead). > I think Internet Config Aware apps can look up the Internet Config database for default file type / creator codes for various file suffixes. I think Anarchie uses it to set the type / creator code for files I've ftped without my interferance. --- The Evil Tofu (Only Human) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:47:28 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 61 Message-ID: <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5dts78$bot$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-170.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22787 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61845 comp.sys.mac.system:200224 John Rudd wrote: ] In <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: ] > Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com) wrote: ] > : John Siracusa wrote: ] > : > I'd say the registry is a hack to make up for an inane ] > : > filesystem that doesn't allow putting the information contained ] > : > in the registry in the files themselves, where it would make ] > : > more sense. ] > ] > : It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used ] > : by multiple users. ] > ] > I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't ] > vary from user to user. If you're talking about the type of thing ] > that is stored in preference files on the Mac, then the logical ] > solution is to have separate preference folders for each user. ] > ] > This doesn't really apply since, abilities aside, Rhaposdy will ] > be targeted as a single-user system from what I have read. ] ] It applies if they don't plan to _limit_ it to single user systems. ] Targeting isn't the same as saying "it wont be able to be used for ] applications other than this one". It simply means that is who they ] plan to focus on. ] ] Focusing on single user systems is all well and good, and rather ] appropriate to the mac market.. but again, Apple wants to come out of ] this with a system that scales to servers and such.. and it's not ] going to scale as well if they eliminate multi-user capabilities. ] ] On the otherhand, I don't see how that's relevant to Jonathan's point. ] The application creator is the application creator.. if that ] information is relevant to you, then you use that application. There ] is no need to overload this data. If you want the file type to ] determine the application you launch, instead of the creator, then the ] GUI should have a switch for choosing between the two. Then each user ] keeps a list of bindings for file types to applications. Multi-user ] systems aren't hindered by either of these being stored in the file ] (or the file wrapper, or the inode, or the resource fork). Well, it's never been stored in the resource fork. But other than that you're dead on target. ] The reason this is a problem on a Mac isn't because it's stored in a ] central location.. it's because the Mac doesn't allow you to pick file ] type over file creator for its launching heuristic, and then give a ] seperate file-type <-> application binding for different "profiles" ] (even if its' just swapping a file at runtime). If it did allow this ] (even the crude run time swapping of the binding file), then it ] wouldn't be a problem. It DOES allow you to override the launching application but ONLY if the creating application is not available. It's called Macintosh Easy Open and it could be extended to work properly (override even application which ARE available) in the current system, let alone in the next. Other than these two minor quibbles I agree with you. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:47:42 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 31 Message-ID: <1997021716474229511116@roxboro-170.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-170.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22788 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61846 comp.sys.mac.system:200225 Scott Hess wrote: ] In article <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com>, ] "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: ] Okay. My beef is with the Macintosh's usage of the creator code, ] not the existence of one. ] ] OK, then, I'll beef. If some bit of information is not really ] necessary, then it shouldn't be added to the filesystem. If the ] creator code is just a nice little bit of trivia which follows a file ] around, but isn't necessary to figure out who to open the file with, ] then who cares? If it's in the information the filesystem maintains, ] then it's a drag on _every_ file, _every_ access, _every_ program. It may be a drag [your trying to save 4 bytes worth] on every file, but it has NOTHING at ALL to do with ACCESSING the file. ] Put another way, if we must have it, rather than a creator code like ] "DRAW", I'd rather have something like "NeXT Draw demo program, ] version 3.14". Even better if it's got fields for creating user, ] date, hostname, etc, etc. Now your saying the opposite since "DRAW" get's mapped to "NeXT Draw demo program version 3.14" instead of it being stored with each file. Of course this doesn't really take care of the different version of the same program since to get that effect you'd have to change the creator each time, but you could make the creation information just a bit larger [2 bytes] and put it in there. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.global-one.no!news1.transpac.net!news5.transpac.net!news.netg.se!dd.chalmers.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 22:59:14 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 96 Message-ID: <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: ras10.itek.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: olivier72@infonie.fr Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22789 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61860 comp.sys.mac.system:200235 In <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> "Olivier Malcor" wrote: >> 1) I think the resource fork is an interesting idea... > >In my opinion, NS manages this kind of facilities in a better way. It gives >you the alternative : > >1. In terms of file system, NS apps are directories (with .app extension). >Of course, these directories appear as icons for the end user, but she can >also open the application "as a folder" to browse into its contents >(including the executable, localizable interfaces (.nib), icons, sounds, >strings, and so on...). > >2. The structure of Mach executables is segmented. It allows you to put >resources in the file itself, just like the Mac does... For example the >application icon is located in the "app" section of the "__ICON" segment. >This way, you can store any kind of resources in the executable... Exactly. Resource forks is only a way to reimplement directories inside a file. Now, in Unix a directory is a file. A file with names and pointers to other files. Making the OS aware that some directories are not really directories but a special sort of file should be simple enough. This could be done using extensions, or by modifying the file system to add a "bundle" bit. However, I think things work well the way they are... >> 2)... >about opening docs... > >Among the data stored in the application segments (see above), are the >information on which kind of document (file extension) one given app can >open. For example, PhotoShop.app could open ".tiff", ".eps", ".gif"..., >IconBuilder.app could open ".tiff" documents only. The user can choose a >default application (among those able) to open a given kind of document. >This is a user's preference. > >Once more, you have the choice. If you prefer, you can command-drag your >file icon onto a running or "docked" application icon to have it opened in >a different app. A couple of days ago I wrote a little application that acts as a dispatcher. You drag a file onto it and it uses another application to open it. You can drag files to its preferences panel and it will let you select an applition other than the workspace managers default for the file type. The idea was that it may at time be nice to have to classes of applications that can open files; "viewers" and "editors". I would use OmniImage when double clicking on a file, but WetPaint when dragged to the dispatcher, for example. The same goes for TeXView/(Edit or Emacs). There is no reason why this system could not be extended to treat files by name instead of by type only. It would become a bit slower, but not unmanageably so -- not even noticeably so, I bet. If anyone wants it, mail me! I wrote a "DesktopPrinter" which does pretty much the same thing, except that it opens the application in the background, starts a print job, and quits the app. However, of the applications I have tried this far only Edit seems to work as advertised... Anyway, the point of this is that the file should not be aware of which application the user wants it opened in, because you cannot count on having one user per system. Using a hash table, or some other data structure, to associate file names with applications in the workspace manager (finder) would be a much nicer approach, IMHO. >About multi-user facilities: >> I think this could be implemented quite easily by simply having a few >> different prefs folders and a control panel to determine which prefs >> folder is being used. > >Perhaps because you are sharing your Mac with responsible guys. What if you >were sharing some very personal/critical data with your first enemy! or >with some apprentice wizard cooking on the system with no restriction! Exactly! I want full security when I use a computer. Other users should not be able to affect my environment. Whenever computers that are not real multi user system are shared problems arise, either from malice or from incompetence. A multi user system saves lots of time for system administrators, and it saves users from trouble. There may also be information on my account that I do not want other users to be able to access. All in all a true multi user system allows you not to care about other users. Inside your own account you rule. You can install the applications you need, run whatever services and daemons you want, and have the directory hierarchy that you wish. The only way you affect other users is the way hard drive space shrinks... --- John Hornkvist --- nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already... If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.tfs.net!user From: tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:16:17 -0600 Organization: The Wandering Powerbook... Lines: 85 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: node50.tfs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61861 comp.sys.mac.system:200236 comp.sys.next.programmer:22790 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & >Unix: File S.. by John Siracusa@bu.edu >>: It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used >>: by multiple users. >> >> I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't >> vary from user to user. > >While that is true, the Mac paradigm uses that information to make the >decision as to which application should open a particular file. > >The Mac paradigm doesn't work very well when you consider a multiuser >operating system because individual users should be able to decide for >themselves which app should open a file and not have their decisions >change what happens to other users. The problem is, I couldn't care less about a multiuser operating system. I bought my Mac for use by a single person: me. With the exception of server machines, every single Mac -- heck, every single *personal computer* -- I've ever seen has been used by one person at a time. The majority of them have been used by a single person, period; if you leave out the CS lab machines, that becomes an overwhelming majority. I'm blathering on about this because it seems like a large number of the arguments by NeXT partisans boil down to 'it has to be this way if you're on a multiuser system.' Well, as I said, I don't WANT a multiuser system; and in my experience, this holds true for the vast majority of machines outside of a lab environment. I don't mind having things in there for the benefit of multiuser setups, as long as they don't get in the way of ordinary single-user operation; but if there's a conflict, I think multiuser features have to take a back seat to convenience features for single users. This gets back to the same argument I keep raising throughout these threads: It doesn't make sense to complicate the user experience for the majority of people to cater to the specialized needs of a small minority. To the point at hand: I think it makes a lot more sense for the default to be the application that created a file. Again based on my experience, people generally create a file with the application they want to use to work with it. The exceptions I see are usually data-acquisition situations (including working with scanned images), where you use one program to get the file, and a second program to manipulate it. For example, BBEdit is my primary text editor; however, when reading or creating documentation files, I'll often use SimpleText, because it supports and displays styled text and BBEdit doesn't. (To bring in another part of the thread, SimpleText stores style information in the resource fork of a file, thus avoiding problems with programs that expect only straight ASCII text.) In this situation, it makes far more sense to have a file-by-file preference, allowing styled text files to open in SimpleText by default, and other text files in BBEdit. >> This doesn't really apply since, abilities aside, Rhaposdy will >> be targeted as a single-user system from what I have read. > >Rhapsody will undoubtedly work just fine as a single-user OS, agreed, >but Rhapsody is almost certainly going to be multiuser. > >It's very easy for a multiuser OS to act like a single-user OS, as >NEXTSTEP did with the default 'me' user. The reverse is not true, and I'm afraid it's your premise that's not true, as you and other NeXT users prove every time you use 'it can't be done that way on a multiuser OS' as an argument -- as you just did above. If many of the conveniences and operating methods that Mac users are used to can't be done on a multiuser OS, then it's obvious that a multiuser OS can't act like the Mac single-user OS. >it would be a very bad move on Apple's part to not make Rhapsody >multiuser. Not if it compromises Apple's traditional ease of use, and especially not if it's for a minority of users. Travis Butler (The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS; tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook; ; Mac page ) ...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Data from App to Improv using Services? Date: 18 Feb 1997 00:54:50 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5eaukq$h4f@bignews.shef.ac.uk> References: <5e1ut7$8uo@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk In-Reply-To: <5e1ut7$8uo@stc06.ctd.ornl.gov> X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 On 02/14/97, John W. Wooten wrote: > Where can I find out how to take data from an app I'm writing and > put it into Improv for some calculations and formatting? > Improv API? ftp://next-ftp.peak.org/pub/next/apps/devtools/ImprovAPI.N.bs.tar.gz Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!news From: randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu (Randy Jackson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: cc++ question Date: 17 Feb 1997 18:37:16 GMT Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5ea8gs$n50@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu In-Reply-To: X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.217 $] NF-U-00075 On 02/15/97, recurve@resourceful.com wrote: >I'm trying to compile what should be a simple C++ program on NeXTStep 3.2 > Use -lg++ >xombi.wizard.net> cc++ main.cc >main.cc:86: warning: return type for `main' changed to integer type >ld: Undefined symbols: >endl(ostream &) >_cerr >ostream::operator<<(const char *) >ostream::operator<<(ostream &(*)(ostream &)) >_cout >ostream::operator<<(int) >ostream::operator<<(char) >xombi.wizard.net> > >Why is the linker having a problem? > >Thanks! > >--- >Son of Ginger and Harry, Aaron Rosenzweig >http://www.wam.umd.edu/~recurve/ >recurve@resourceful.com > -- Randy Jackson, Associate Professor ,_ o __o Geography, The Ohio State University / //\, _`\<,_ 1036 Derby Hall, 154 North Oval Mall \>> | (*)/ (*) Columbus OH 43210-1361 \\, FAX (614) 292 6213 randyj@lubra.sbs.ohio-state.edu http://www.geography.ohio-state.edu/faculty/jackson/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 97 22:40:36 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-19-15.access.one.net In-reply-to: John Hornkvist's message of 17 Feb 1997 22:59:14 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22793 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61874 comp.sys.mac.system:200269 In article <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> John Hornkvist writes: Resource forks is only a way to reimplement directories inside a file. Which brings up an interesting question ... can anyone tell me if there's a limit on the number of files you can have on HFS? It just occurred to me that perhaps forks are a means of effectively doubling the number of files without requiring more metadata overhead. [I'm making two assumptions, here. One is that Way Back When, Mac had small disks, and for every file which needed a resource fork, you'd have needed twice as much metadata overhead. Furthermore, files may have been referred to with small integers to save space in the metadata.] Now, in Unix a directory is a file. A file with names and pointers to other files. Making the OS aware that some directories are not really directories but a special sort of file should be simple enough. This could be done using extensions, or by modifying the file system to add a "bundle" bit. However, I think things work well the way they are... They do work reasonably the way they are, but I think it would be perfectly appropriate to have a bundle bit. OTOH, I'm not sure quite where it could go without conflicting with directory handling code. For instance, you could use the sticky bit (but it's already used for directories), or a setuid/setgid bit to indicate something special about a directory. OTOH, I keep coming back to the thought that, when you come right down to it, if you _only_ manipulate the file through the UI, it really doesn't make a bit of difference whether it's a forked file, a directory wrapping individual files, or a database filestore of some sort. You don't care. It's only those of us who ever access files from somewhere other than the UI (command-line _or_ programmatically) who care. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!Belgium.EU.net!news From: Stef Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 08:42:26 +0100 Organization: HOSTE NV Lines: 25 Message-ID: <33095D61.5859@ping.be> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5e3bou$emo$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <3308691E.51A7@worldbank.org> Reply-To: stefan.kuypers@ping.be NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup142.brussels2.eunet.be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22794 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61875 comp.sys.mac.system:200270 Stefano Pagiola wrote: > > scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) wrote: > > Maybe the _real_ solution is to come up with a different extension > > separator (say a \?), keep the . as a generic character usable > > anywhere in a filename, use the \ to demarcate the "extension", > > No need. NeXTSTEP uses the whatever is to the right of the LAST . as > the extension. I have plenty of filenames with multiple periods in > them, and NeXTSTEp parses them all appropriately (eg 961021.Jones.wp is > correctly identified as WordPerfect file, not a "jones.wp" file). I haven't been really following this thread but from a few posts I've read it seems like there is a possibility we will be confronted with those horrible .type extensions to differentiate between file types. I DO hope Apple won't start using these horrible things when all these years we're used to just giving any name to our files. Can you allready imagine all those poor end users who rename their mypict.jpg file to mypict and then find out that double clicking the icon doesn't launch the right app any more? If I'm completely besides the subject (like I said I haven't been completely following this thread) then I apoligize. Stef #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!peernews.ftech.net!telehouse1.frontier-networks.co.uk!Aladdin!aladdin.net!ns2.aladdin.net!RMplc!not-for-mail From: raymond@rcp.co.uk (Ray Offiah) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:46:13 GMT Organization: Research Machines plc Lines: 44 Message-ID: <3309a1c9.11108823@news.rmplc.co.uk> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: rcp-station231.rmplc.co.uk X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:189945 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20865 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15142 comp.sys.next.advocacy:57922 comp.sys.next.programmer:22795 comp.sys.next.misc:25089 comp.unix.machten:4066 comp.unix.osf.misc:4119 comp.os.mach:4067 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53329 On 18 Feb 1997 04:22:44 GMT, jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) wrote: >OK, > Let's get it straight guys, for those of you still confused. The >current specified Mach kernel under development (if you want to call it >that) is NOT a microkernel. OSF Mach 3.0, used in mkLinux, is an actual >microkernel. Apple's Mach kernel will have features from Mach 3.0, but >will not be the true Mach 3.0. Some are jokingly calling this 'Mach >2.5++'. > Yes, I too would love the latest wiz-bang features loaded into Rhapsody which would slow it down, cause it to be delivered late, and not really provide any benefits to it's users. >The near future is distributed cluster based microkernel which I believe >is evident in Mach 4.0. Microsoft with licenses from DEC will implement a >distributed cluster based Operating System with Windows NT 5.0. Let's also remember that MS has been promising an OO based file system for some time now ... so I think the lesson is (as with ALL software products) 'I'll believe it when I see it'. > Apple >will implement a monolithic kernel with Rhapsody. This kernel will be >upgraded to provide SMP (Symmetrical Multiprocessing). > .... you still haven't said why this is such a huge disaster, or why the kernel cannot be replaced at a later date. >Distributed microkernels will not only use SMP, but will also use other >processors and resources of various computers across high speed network >across different computers. Some may say this is analogous to the Borg in >Star Trek. > I think that, realistically speaking, Apple should do whatever gets Rhapsody into developers hands in the shortest possible time. If that means losing a few folk because they haven't the time to build in Borg technology, then that's a cross they will have to bear. Seems a fair trade to me. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!portal.gmu.edu!gravity.science.gmu.edu!tfs From: tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu ( Tim) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 17 Feb 1997 19:08:21 GMT Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax Va. Lines: 28 Sender: tfs-----@gravity.science.gmu.edu (remove dashes to reply) Message-ID: <5eaab5$66f@portal.gmu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gravity.science.gmu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Summary: oh this was good Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22796 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61884 comp.sys.mac.system:200278 In article , Scott Hess wrote: >In article <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu>, Scott, that was really a good explenation, and provided way, way more depth than I'd even considered putting in. I realize that most of the things you described come into play with the "space" issue, but I wanted to make the point about the difference in potentialy usable space in a concise manner. The only issue you neglected was the tuneability of the filesystem. For instance on my swapdisk I have maxbpg set pretty high compared to the default set up with a min & max on the swapfile size, because it's purpose is to deal with that one big swapfile. Tim -- ________________________________________________________________ tfs@vampire.science.gmu.edu (NeXTmail, MIME) Tim Scanlon tfs@epic.org (PGP key aval.) crypto is good Seal Technologies Inc. I own my own words #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.gtn.com!blackbush.xlink.net!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!hades.rz.uni-sb.de!news.phil.uni-sb.de!news.dfki.uni-sb.de!news From: fettig@clichy.this.domain.is.not.set (Thomas Fettig) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 17 Feb 1997 21:39:13 +0100 Organization: S.u.S.E GmbH Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com> Reply-To: fettig@cl.dfki.uni-sb.de NNTP-Posting-Host: clichy.dfki.uni-sb.de In-reply-to: glenn@concentric.net.no.spam's message of Fri, 14 Feb 1997 02:34:30 -0400 X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22797 comp.sys.mac.system:200281 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61886 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4120 In article glenn@concentric.net.no.spam (Glenn) writes: > > In article <5du6c1$19c$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young wrote: > > Are you *insane*? Apple's current OS has the *worst* memory management > > architecture of ANY operating system since the advent of the MMU. Period. > > Evidently you haven't done any 16 bit Winderz programming.... > glenn@concentric.net.no.spam So it is the second worst, and that is sad enough. tom #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:13:01 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 44 Message-ID: <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> References: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> <5ebqe6$hu6@concorde.ctp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: sjx-ca28-24.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Feb 18 3:13:05 AM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 On 18 Feb 1997 08:49:10 GMT, "Georg Tuparev" wrote: > >I converted 40k lines program using the scripts for 2 days without any problem -- >now the program runs even on NT and Solaris, and very soon with GNU OS ... and is >very happy so. > So, we have: (1) NeXT's claim that 50K lines take approximately a month. (2) Many exchanges such as the following fom c.s.n.misc > > What is involved in taking existing NeXTStep Apps and > migrating them to OpenStep for Sparc? > > Is it "just a recompile"? No, it's a right f**king pain in the arse. (3) Statements from prominent NEXTSTEP programmers, like the following from Don Yachtman (note that I'm avoiding the people that Georg has labelled "NeXT haters"). >It is true. NEXTSTEP != OPENSTEP as far as the API goes. >There are some major differences, some of which are >conceptual and require not just changing method names, but in >some cases completely _rewriting_code. Stuff that uses >streams a lot can be onerous, for example. Having done some >NEXTSTEP->OPENSTEP conversion, I will openly state: >it is non-trivial to do! and (4) Georg's assertion that it's a piece of cake. Draw your own conclusions about the validity of what Georg says. Cheers, Andy "In the beginning, everything was even money" --Mike Caro #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!news.asi.fr!cornut!rflattin From: rflattin@cornut.fr (Roger Flattin) Reply-To: rflattin@cornut.fr Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Distribution: world Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 12:02:49 GMT Message-ID: <3812884479.61889221@cornut.fr> Organization: Cornut Informatique SA Lines: 27 >The near future is distributed cluster based microkernel which I believe >is evident in Mach 4.0. Microsoft with licenses from DEC will implement a >distributed cluster based Operating System with Windows NT 5.0. Apple >will implement a monolithic kernel with Rhapsody. This kernel will be >upgraded to provide SMP (Symmetrical Multiprocessing). >Distributed microkernels will not only use SMP, but will also use other >processors and resources of various computers across high speed network >across different computers. Some may say this is analogous to the Borg in >Star Trek. As far as I see (in particular official description), the Mach kernel used in NeXTStep is a micro-kernel (i.e. a minimal kernel that handle virtual memory management, multitasking with multiple thread support and interprocess communication). It is able to dispatch processing among several CPU (even if no NeXT commercial product use this fonctionnality) and through a network among several computer (I have been said that this was already the case). Roger FLATTIN rflattin@cornut.fr ---->> On our site a SHAREWARE SQL Query Tool <<-------- --->> Don't forget to Try also our C/S Dev tool <<------- CORNUT Informatique SA Client/Server & SQL RDBMS BP 702 - 42950 St Etienne cedex 9 http://www.cornut.fr/ France email: info@cornut.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!bignews.shef.ac.uk!usenet From: mmalcolm crawford Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: UK NeXTSTEP-user group meeting: 20 February 1997 Date: 18 Feb 1997 11:15:08 GMT Organization: University of Sheffield, UK Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5ec2vs$18d@bignews.shef.ac.uk> Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford NNTP-Posting-Host: daneel.dcs.shef.ac.uk X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25401 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:189950 comp.sys.next.programmer:22800 Sorry about short notice, and for brevity of this message: Luke Howard of Xedoc is currently in the UK, and has kindly consented to give a talk about NetInfo (which will then lead to a discussion about other aspects of "recent events" :-) at 6:00pm on Thursday 20 February at Complete Works 399 Strand, London. (Just above Stanley Gibbons) 0171 836 0808 Many thanks to Jackie Mackay of Complete Works for agreeing to host this at short notice. Could you please let me know if you're likely to attend. Best wishes, mmalc. -- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:49:17 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61890 comp.sys.mac.system:200282 comp.sys.next.programmer:22801 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Mike Connally@ecmwf.int > |> Either you can put _any_ file on a remote system like an Auspex NFS > |> server, and have it work correctly, or else some crucial parts of what's > |> on a Mac filesystem cannot be stored on remote fileservers because they > |> won't work correctly. > > Are you asserting that you can put _any_ file from any UNIX > system on _any_ other UNIX system and have it work properly? > Executables? For example, let's say I'm using a Sun SPARC and my company has an Auspex fileserver. I can NFS mount the Auspex server on my Sun, and I can run Sun SPARC executables stored on the remote machine. In fact, I could use any type of machine as an NFS fileserver, and be able to run SPARC binaries stored on that fileserver without any problems. I could use Samba and an NT fileserver instead of NFS, if I wanted. Or I could use a Novell Netware fileserver. Again, it shouldn't matter to me what the remote fileserver is-- I should be able to store executables on it and be able to run them. However, I can't NFS mount a remote fileserver on a Mac and be able to run Mac executables, because they require the out-of-band information stored in their resource forks which is not representable within the standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms. > Very very wrong. Executables are tied very closely to the OS and HW and > don't happily move between platforms. Executables are machine specific, correct-- but they can be stored on remote fileservers without any problems, and they should be able to run on the appropriate hardware platform that the executable was compiled for. [ ... ] > I have never encountered anything like the originally quoted > "huge pain trying to transfer files to other platforms in a > meaningful way". I suspect anyone who says that has never > actually tried doing it. It's trivial. Sorry, but you're wrong. Macs do not integrate very well with with heterogenous network fileservers, because their executables won't be runnable when stored on an NFS fileserver (or a NT fileserver, or a Novell fileserver, etc). -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 14:35:54 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 129 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200284 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4121 comp.sys.next.programmer:22802 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61891 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >> Operating systems fail when the machine is not provided adequate >> resources for the tasks that it's supposed to perform. Polite operating >> systems fail in a reasonably graceful way that may even allows you to >> correct the problem without rebooting, which is what NEXTSTEP does. >> >> Other operating systems tend to panic or lock up. > > If NextSTEP does this good. > However, don't lump all other OSs into the panic and lock up variety I didn't say "all other OS's". While there are a few OS's which are as stable than NEXTSTEP, the vast majority of computer systems are running either MS Windows or MacOS-- both of which are well known for their lack of stability. [ ... ] >> Apparently, you seem to think the OS should ask the user via an alert >> panel to browse the filesystem in order to specify where the missing >> file is. Do you agree that this was your suggestion? > > Not exactly. The OS should ask the user/an operator what to do, locate > the file, kill the process, ignore the file and continue. You have > quite a few options. The operating system does not have the decision-making powers of a human, and it cannot make a decision between the alternatives you've listed-- it will only do what it's programmed to do. Therefore, you've either got to pick _one_ of the alternatives, or else provide a deterministic and decidable algorithm that the OS can use to select an alternative. Of course, you've failed to address the crucial point I've made, which is that _any_ of the choices you've listed will be an inappropriate action for some processes. No matter how many choices you come up with and how complicated the algorithm to select between them is, I'll be able to come up with situations which require different error handling than what you've stated that the OS should do. >> But what happens if there isn't a user? Should the process block >> indefinitely until someone notices that the machine is wedged? > > That is preferrable to killing the process, which is an extreme form > of blocking and you will still have to wait for someone to come and > fix it. Or do you mean that the process will be killed and automatically > restarted. This is a possibility, but of course the condition that > killed the original process might still be in effect. In this case the > operator has a much harder job of trying to prevent the continual > loop of [kill process; restart process]*. Whichever way you are > still blocked. But Unix doesn't block when open() fails-- it returns EACCESS immediately, which allows to process to decide whether to continue, ask the user for help, or do whatever else it finds appropriate, such as terminate. That's a far superior solution to blocking. [ ... ] >>>> I assume you're just talking about the first case, where malloc() fails. >>>> Polite applications warn the user that they couldn't get the memory >>>> they needed, and they abort the operation being attempted, and return to >>>> their main event loop. >>> >>> Since this is a case that should be handled by every running task, >>> why burden the application programmer with this task: >> >> Because not all tasks will want to handle a particular error condition >> in the same way? > > But what I am saying is that you can do a good OS design by evaluating > all those ways, and then giving the option (which might also include some > automatic policy that circumvents the user/operator). (A) It's impossible for the OS designer to incorperate every possible way that a process might want to handle every possible error condition, and, (B) even if it was possible, why would you want to bloat the OS with all of that code when it's simpler and easier to design processes that perform the error handling that they need? Good operating system provide well defined interfaces to support processes, and these interfaces should be made as small, as simple, and as elegant as possible while still providing all of the functionality that's needed. Complex functionality like a window system, or a math library, or a set of error handling routines belongs in user space, not in the kernel. Ever hear of modularity? [ ... ] >>> In order to >>> prove your asserted contradiction you would have to show what is >>> inappropriate for the OS to handle in any of the example scenarios >>> I have given. >> >> Very good. I'll be happy to do so: >> >> Consider a machine like a web server, which does not have a user or >> administrator on the console. It's the responsibility of the >> programmers to write the web server so that it returns a 4xx code >> indicating that the requested resource was not found. >> >> It would be completely inappropriate for the web server to stop running >> and pop up an alert panel that some file could not be found, and wait >> for someone to tell the program what to do. > > Yes, but if you go back through my posts you'll find that I allow for > that situation. And how would you allow for that situation? > Sorry, but I have deleted the rest of the post, it just smacks of > a personalised flame war, which I don't want to get dragged into, > is irrelevant and will bore most readers (and myself). Fine by me-- I've made my points and I'm willing to let them stand if you don't care to debate them further. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dircon!not-for-mail From: johnh@madcow.dircon.co.uk (John Holdsworth) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 17 Feb 1997 20:52:12 GMT Organization: via Direct Connection News service Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> Reply-To: holdswj@gb.swissbank.com NNTP-Posting-Host: madcow.dircon.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:57935 comp.sys.next.misc:25091 comp.sys.next.programmer:22803 I don't want to sound like a luddite but... I've put a fair amount of time into scoping the amount of work involved in porting some real applications onto OpenStep only to find that the common classes List, HashTable etc all gone from the OpenStep spec. Arrrrgh! These where useful, tightly written classes that surely would not have been to much effort to port to OpenStep (even inheriting from NSObject( but no, we are told we must use the impossible to subclass NSMutableDictionary and NSArray class clusters. While I appreciate people are trying to help us out by moving us onto these far "better" classes in the real world we have to keep software running not break it (even if we had two years to change over.) Perhaps this might explain why there are allot of NeXTStep apps out there (OmniWeb, Mesa, GateKeeper etc) but very few new OpenStep products that I am aware of. While I'm at it lets keep strings as a data type rather than a class. A char * can go along using dodgy features like a reference count at (char *)string[-1]. EOF would be a good deal simpler and faster if NSString hadn't been invented. Dates have loads of complex behaviour and justify being a class strings are better kept as a datatype. Flaming on... John H. (madcow is a Gateway 2000 PC in case you're wondering) #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!ali.bc.ca!nobody From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Message-ID: Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca Reply-To: allan@cetus.ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk) Cc: syy@ecmwf.int Organization: ALI Technologies Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 18:07:30 GMT References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Lines: 46 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22804 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61892 comp.sys.mac.system:200285 In comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Mike Connally wrote: > In article , Charles William Swiger > writes: > |> Either you can put _any_ file on a remote system like an Auspex NFS > |> server, and have it work correctly, or else some crucial parts of what's > |> on a Mac filesystem cannot be stored on remote fileservers because they > |> won't work correctly. > > Are you asserting that you can put _any_ file from any UNIX > system on _any_ other UNIX system and have it work properly? > Executables? Very very wrong. Executables are tied very > closely to the OS and HW and don't happily move between > platforms. I think you missed his point. You put the application on a NFS (ie. Network *File* Server) so that the application files are accessible from any client machine on the network. The server and clients can be running completely different operating systems. The server can be running an operating system which can not "run" the application, but that doesn't matter. As far as the server is concerned the application is just a collection of files. The client just accesses the remote file system and runs the application in its own memory space on its own CPU. Not the servers. I do this all of the time. It works great. With NeXT's fat binaries, the clients can even have different chip architectures and but use the same application on the remote file system. This is where the advantage of using a wrapper system really shines. If you have special resource fork or other scheme to represent file/application information, you have to figure out how to encode this on the alien file system and translate it on the fly. The wrapper approach uses a scheme which doesn't require any special representation, since it already works using regular directories. -- Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca ALI Technologies Voice: 604.279.5422 x 317 Richmond, Canada Fax: 604.279.5468 * NeXT and MIME mail welcome * "Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!blackbush.xlink.net!vas.bull.de!usenet From: Petr Novak Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Updates in EOF 2.0 Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 12:34:18 +0100 Organization: Impact GmbH,Cologne, Germany Lines: 10 Message-ID: <330993BA.2738@microcomp.de> Reply-To: novak@microcomp.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.120.248.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Hallo ! According the documentation , method setSavesToDataSourceAutomatically of EOController in 1.1 is in 2.0 obsolete, because changes are directly send to database.On my experience (Sybase 11, NT 4.0, Openstep 4.1) you must still explicitly send saveChanges to EOEditingContext to propagate changes to database. Is there some possibility to let updates in NSTableView to be send direct to database ? Petr Novak #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!sun4nl!news.omroep.nl!Intranet.eo.nl!pim From: pim@Intranet.eo.nl (Pim) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 14:31:17 GMT Organization: Nederlandse Omroepen Lines: 60 Message-ID: <5ecefl$5d1@kwek.omroep.nl> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.58.227.108 X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22806 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61895 comp.sys.mac.system:200289 : : > On Win 95 I have both Borland and MS compilers installed. After : : > installing the Borland compiler all my MS Visual C (*.c/cpp) created : : > files now insist on openning with the Borland compiler when I double : : > click them! I can't have some *.c/cpp files open with VC and others with : : > Borland and of course they must end in c/cpp to open with either one. : : > : : > What is the a type/creator mechanism on NextOS that will prevent this : : > step backwards in usability for Mac users in the future? : : : : There is no 'creator' concept - that idea falls apart in a multiuser : : scenario. Like other people pointed out, even in a multiuser environment, there should be such a thing as a default-application to open up a certain icon with. Changes by a normal users ought to be somehow stored in his/her own homedir or registry, preferences folder or whatever. : Ignoring the attempt to brush off the issue with with an air of false : : : Filename extensions are used, but they are more flexible than Windows : : extensions. There's no limit on the length of the extension, for : : instance. The NeXTSTEP presentation app 'Concurrence' uses a : : '.concur' extension. Spaces are allowed in filenames. : While the Mac users abhorance of file extensions is largely religious, : it will probably need to be honored for the sake of a smooth migration : path. However this could be as simple as hiding the extension from view : in the Finder. : Excuse me, but I don't see the point of creating a kludge by using filename extensions for filetypes. The filename is, as far as I know, just part of a file's inode in most filesystems. Hence, using hidden filename extensions or a resource with a Type/Creator basically amount to the same thing under a different name. : In this sense, Contents Inspector works like QuickTime, though QuickTime : uses/makes custom previews and icons. Custom icons are particularly : useful since even the best file name is not always as meaningful as a small : version of the image. : A really well-organized mind might be able to make a few destinctive proper- ties of an image and retreive them through those, but in the Real World I guess you're right :-) : How to store this and like info (custom icons, previews, etc.), whether : by forks or wrappers or hidden files or filename extensions is a technical : issue which does not need to impact the look and feel or user experience. : Hopefully only the engineers will worry about this. That sounds, in fact, a lot more sensible.. Regards, Pim r00t@pi.net #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 15:15:21 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ech29$9qj$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: <5ecefl$5d1@kwek.omroep.nl> Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article <5ecefl$5d1@kwek.omroep.nl> pim@Intranet.eo.nl (Pim) writes: [other stuff deleted] > The filename is, as far as I know, just part of > a file's inode in most filesystems. This is not the case in UNIX. I-Nodes/Files are nameless. They are referenced by directory entries, which are named. So you can have multiple (hard) links with different names pointing to the same I-Node/File, as well as multiple (soft) links pointing to a certain path-name. Marcel #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!portal.gmu.edu!gravity.science.gmu.edu!tfs From: tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu ( Tim) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 18 Feb 1997 01:29:32 GMT Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax Va. Lines: 39 Sender: tfs----@gravity.science.gmu.edu Message-ID: <5eb0ls$34j@portal.gmu.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gravity.science.gmu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Summary: umm yet-another-point Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22808 comp.sys.mac.system:200296 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61899 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4123 In article <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu>, Steve Barnet <"mailer-daemon"@[127.0.0.1]> wrote: > >Your point is valid and UNIX provides a mechanism for not slaying >innocents. Most Unices have a notion of user limits (ulimit). This >enables the administrator to set resource limits on a per user basis. >So to deal with your scenario (shooting an innocent (possibly crucial) >bystander), it's necessary to set user limits appropriately. This can >prevent a user from monopolizing the box and (if done wisely) can make >sure that crucial processes still have enough room to do their thing. Well, there's one other really good reason for ulimit too, and it's probably the one I've seen most utilized as well. Basicly it's limitation by & for the user. If I am working on/with some program that I've found to have problems for one reason or another, and I don't want it to eat up all the resources of the computer, I can as a user ulimit whichever catagory I have concerns about. Limitation by the admin is a superset of the same capacities that users have. Besides ulimit, there's also "nice" which is more commonly used by users I belive. In a client/server setup, where you want to make sure that users don't hog the resources of a central server (this is common in educational enviornments), ulimiting user processes appropriatly on a server can be quite useful to say the least, and is a common problem that needs dealing withfor the reasons that you described above. Tim -- ________________________________________________________________ tfs@vampire.science.gmu.edu (NeXTmail, MIME) Tim Scanlon tfs@epic.org (PGP key aval.) crypto is good Seal Technologies Inc. I own my own words #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!ctp.com!news From: "Georg Tuparev" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 18 Feb 1997 08:49:10 GMT Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc. Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5ebqe6$hu6@concorde.ctp.com> References: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com NNTP-Posting-Host: haring.nl.ctp.com --- Flame on --- Why some people cannot (or do not want to) understand that backwards-compatibility == M$ All these "I cannot convert to OS", "Where is the List class" etc. questions indicate poor design and implementation, and if somebody writes lasagne code, even backwards compatibility will not help ... he will find another excuse for his handicap. I converted 40k lines program using the scripts for 2 days without any problem -- now the program runs even on NT and Solaris, and very soon with GNU OS ... and is very happy so. --- flame of --- Say hallo to Steve. S. III, David S. and Greg A. They may accept you as a member of their hater club. In article <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> johnh@madcow.dircon.co.uk (John Holdsworth) writes: > > I don't want to sound like a luddite but... > > I've put a fair amount of time into scoping the amount of work > involved in porting some real applications onto OpenStep only > to find that the common classes List, HashTable etc all gone > from the OpenStep spec. > > Arrrrgh! > > These where useful, tightly written classes that surely would > not have been to much effort to port to OpenStep (even inheriting > from NSObject( but no, we are told we must use the impossible to > subclass NSMutableDictionary and NSArray class clusters. [...] -- ------- /\/\ Georg Tuparev / /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners \ / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15 \/\/ 1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel: +31(20)575-0492 Fax: +31(20)575-0500 WWW: http://www.ctp.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:35:10 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 36 Message-ID: <1997021810351033363403@roxboro-161.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-161.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22810 comp.sys.mac.system:200299 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61905 Scott Hess wrote: -snip- ] ] BSD FFS has also been used by several million users for more than a ] decade. ] ] BSD FFS was designed for multitasking timesharing server systems, ] systems with substantially more disk, memory, and CPU than personal ] computers of the day had, in a midsize heterogenous network ] environment. Systems, in fact, which look suspiciously like the ] personal computer systems of today, except that today's PCs have ] high-resolution video output devices. But it can still use some extensions - adding file type/creator and a creation time isn't a bad idea, although where that information is kept is another matter (it could be kept in a database and accessed by fileID#). ] HFS, meanwhile, was designed to run in a box with 128k of RAM, on a ] system which would be used by a single user, in a small homogenous ] networking environment. Not really - MFS was designed for such a machine. HFS was designed for a 1 meg machine with a 20 meg HD and a networking environment that wasn't entirely homogenous. ] Put another way, HFS was designed for the personal computers of ] yesterday, while FFS was designed for the minicomputers of yesterday. ] Today's personal computers are beyond the minicomputers of yesterday ] in many ways. Yes, but they have different needs. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!uchinews!news From: stephen farrell Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: phaedrus.uchicago.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Message-ID: <87u3nayt41.fsf@phaedrus.uchicago.edu> Lines: 18 Sender: news@midway.uchicago.edu (News Administrator) Organization: University of Chicago -- Academic Computing Services X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.2.25/XEmacs 19.14 References: <3309a1c9.11108823@news.rmplc.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.89) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:30:22 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190011 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20868 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15151 comp.sys.next.advocacy:57966 comp.sys.next.programmer:22811 comp.sys.next.misc:25093 comp.unix.machten:4069 comp.unix.osf.misc:4120 comp.os.mach:4069 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53366 [crap about the Bord deleted] > > I think that, realistically speaking, Apple should do whatever gets > Rhapsody into developers hands in the shortest possible time. If that > means losing a few folk because they haven't the time to build in Borg > technology, then that's a cross they will have to bear. Seems a fair > trade to me. > i don't fully understand this point. developers can go out right now and purchase openstep for mach on intel, sparc, and hppa platforms, and for winNT, and solaris. why doesn't apple encourage them to do so, and make sure that the final product they deliver is simply openstep compliant (or at least just needing trivial fixes and a recompile)? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 97 15:53:36 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-9.access.one.net In-reply-to: syy@ecmwf.int's message of 17 Feb 1997 14:52:05 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22812 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61908 comp.sys.mac.system:200310 In article <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int>, syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) writes: In article , Charles William Swiger writes: |> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Mike Connally@ecmwf.int |> >> One wonders if that's a good thing. One of the largest |> >> problems with the Mac filesystem is that it's a huge pain |> >> trying to transfer files to other platforms in a meaningful |> >> way. |> > |> > What problem is that? Other systems (e.g. UNIX) want to see |> > a byte stream, which is what exists in the data fork of a Mac |> > file. [ ... ] Apps are another matter, of course. |> |> That "of course" is why the Mac forks are a problem. |> |> Either you can put _any_ file on a remote system like an Auspex |> NFS server, and have it work correctly, or else some crucial |> parts of what's on a Mac filesystem cannot be stored on remote |> fileservers because they won't work correctly. Are you asserting that you can put _any_ file from any UNIX system on _any_ other UNIX system and have it work properly? Executables? Very very wrong. Executables are tied very closely to the OS and HW and don't happily move between platforms. Ugh, sorry to bust your bubble, but I can place executables from pretty much any Unix (Linux, Solaris, whatever) on my NeXTstation just fine. It's just a file of bytes, after all. Of course, I can't _execute_ the executable. I don't have the right OS or processor for that. But I can act as an NFS fileserver for another Unix system which _does_ have the right OS and processor. _That's_ what you can't do as well for HFS. It's tougher to have a giant SMP SCSI RAID 1+0 100Mbps switching server to handle all of your Mac files, data _and_ apps. Easy as pie (well, close :-) for any version of Unix _I've_ seen. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!warwick!leicester!usenet From: Michael Hudson Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:56:51 +0000 Organization: University of Leicester, UK Lines: 53 Message-ID: <3309DF53.3A07@nowhere.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B988.4E8F@acm.org> Reply-To: none NNTP-Posting-Host: mac26.geol.le.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22813 comp.sys.mac.system:200319 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61912 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4124 Ian Joyner wrote: > > You are correct that there are several different uses for files, which > need to be identified. However all uses can be designed into an OS, > and a consistent treatment can be designed. > > For example, there is a different treatment for a file that the > application > expects to be there, and one that it might optionally create if it is > not present. > Or a file might be optional, in which case the application might > continue happily without it being there, with your preferences > example it just uses defaults. Yes the application will code for these > cases, but my point is there is a lot more that OSs can and should do. > > If the file is mandatory, what can the application accomplish? The > user or some other process must make the file present. In fact that > is one way of synchronising processes. > Are you saying that when you ask the OS to open a file, you should tell it how badly you want the file? eg namespace file_system { enum requirements { required, optional, create_if_absent }; open_file(const file_spec& in_file, permission in_perm, requirements in_req); }; ... using file_system; open_file(the_file_spec,fsRdWrPerm,optional); open_file(the_file_spec,fsRdWrPerm,required | create_if_absent); This strikes me as being a little like the ios::nocreate flag in the C++ library. Does any OS do this? -- Regards, Michael Hudson Please don't email this address - it's not mine. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 23:05:57 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 97 Message-ID: <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61914 comp.sys.mac.system:200321 comp.sys.next.programmer:22814 In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: > I'm blathering on about this because it seems like a large number of the > arguments by NeXT partisans boil down to 'it has to be this way if you're > on a multiuser system.' Well, as I said, I don't WANT a multiuser system; Well I'm sorry, but too bad. Apple is not going to redesign the entire filesystem to make single users a little happier when it means sacrificing multiuser capability and returning to 80's technology. You can go on all you want about Apple's targeted market, but it's a step backwards and Apple's not going to take it. HFS is one reason why Macs are not considered seriously in server environments. > and in my experience, this holds true for the vast majority of machines > outside of a lab environment. Actually, I know of quite a few machines both in work and home environments which more than one person uses. And there are still good reasons for having a multiuser machine even if only one person uses it. > I don't mind having things in there for the > benefit of multiuser setups, as long as they don't get in the way of > ordinary single-user operation; but if there's a conflict, I think > multiuser features have to take a back seat to convenience features for > single users. There really are not very many instances where having a multiuser filesystem seriously inconveniences single users, your opinions notwithstanding. > To the point at hand: I think it makes a lot more sense for the default to > be the application that created a file. I don't. I've used Macs and I've used NEXTSTEP and I like the NEXTSTEP way far better. I don't want to get a file from somebody and have it open in whatever _they_ like to use. I want all GIFs to open in my preferred GIF viewer, etc. > Again based on my experience, > people generally create a file with the application they want to use to > work with it. They may create it with one application, and then prefer to view it from then on using another. Or they may prefer to view a document someone sends them with one viewer application rather than a full-blown editor. But that's the point you just made below. There are a _lot_ of exceptions though, at least with the files I typically work with. And the documents that I both create and view with the same application are usually with an application that has its own document format, so opening by type doesn't make any difference anyway. > The exceptions I see are usually data-acquisition situations > (including working with scanned images), where you use one program to get > the file, and a second program to manipulate it. > In this situation, it > makes far more sense to have a file-by-file preference, allowing styled > text files to open in SimpleText by default, and other text files in > BBEdit. In practice, I think Apple will probably add something like this, probably in the form of a user-level database of file->app associations. > >It's very easy for a multiuser OS to act like a single-user OS, as > >NEXTSTEP did with the default 'me' user. The reverse is not true, and > I'm afraid it's your premise that's not true, as you and other NeXT users > prove every time you use 'it can't be done that way on a multiuser OS' as > an argument -- as you just did above. It's easy to do, within _reasonable_ constraints. The 'me' account is quite good at fooling people into thinking the machine is a single-user one. But once you start doing idiotic things like writing information about which application should open a document directly into the filesystem, then there's no hope of a multiuser system remaining a multiuser system. If you put that kind of information in a _per-user_ database, where it belongs, then things work perfectly fine and the user is none the wiser. > If many of the conveniences and > operating methods that Mac users are used to can't be done on a multiuser > OS, then it's obvious that a multiuser OS can't act like the Mac > single-user OS. It's all a matter of efficiency. A multiuser OS can emulate a single-user one just fine. > Not if it compromises Apple's traditional ease of use, and especially not > if it's for a minority of users. And another thing. Stop pretending you speak for the majority. Mac users probably prefer the Mac way because it's the only thing they know. NEXTSTEP users generally have used NEXTSTEP _and_ Macs (or something else). The fact that they still prefer the NEXTSETP way says something. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!esiee.fr!jussieu.fr!nef.ens.fr!drakkar!jalon From: jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 04:23:28 GMT Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5ebas0$gqs@nef.ens.fr> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5eb0d2$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: drakkar.ens.fr Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61915 comp.sys.mac.system:200322 comp.sys.next.programmer:22815 In article <5eb0d2$1en@news3.digex.net>, John Kheit wrote: >That's very nice. And I want to be the ruler of the universe. >Looks like today neither of us will get what we want. Many people >can and do benefit from multiuser os's. This is the same kind of >argument I used to hear from dos heads. We don't want or need GUI. >Who needs it? It's useful, and if you don't like it, no one will >force you to make use of it. > >But, for certain server level processes it's great. That way the >kids, while they are on their account, won't be able to crash down >the web server processes you have going. That way your mother in >law won't be able to spitefully kill your tax files. etc etc. > And you can have your own personnal accounts : one to play, one to work, one to develop programs, etc... but the most important : one to install programms (=root) and one to run them (=me, or whatever you want) : result is almost no viruses, or not very dangerous viruses, no dangerous system crahes which remove all the files on your hard disk ! --Julien -- Julien Jalon | Ecole normale superieure jalon@clipper.ens.fr | 45 rue d'Ulm http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/ | 75230 Paris Cedex 05 | FRANCE #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!tribune.usask.ca!usenet From: eric@skatter.USask.Ca Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs Subject: OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 -- printf %g still broken Date: 18 Feb 1997 17:27:13 GMT Organization: University of Saskatchewan Lines: 77 Message-ID: <5ecoph$74i@tribune.usask.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: pisces.usask.ca X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.81) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22816 comp.sys.next.bugs:4202 I just finished installing OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 (Intel). I then checked to see if my favorite bug had survived yet another version: eric@pisces 224> cat printfcheck.c #include int main (int argc, char **argv) { printf ("Expect 0.00123: %.3g\n", 0.001234567); printf ("Expect 123: %.3g\n", 123.4567); printf ("Expect 123.5: %.4g\n", 123.4567); printf ("Expect 1e+03: %.3g\n", 999.6); return 0; } eric@pisces 225> cc -o printfcheck printfcheck.c eric@pisces 226> ./printfcheck Expect 0.00123: 0.001 Expect 123: 123.457 Expect 123.5: 123.4567 Expect 1e+03: 999.6 eric@pisces 227> ================================================================== Yes! It's still not fixed! Seven years and three months since I first reported it (way back in the NextStep 1.0 days). I even have the NeXT bug tracking reference numbers [60697, 98369] and an e-mail message from NeXT (September 1994) indicating that, ``it looks like it will finally be fixed in NEXTSTEP release 4.0.'' I wonder if this has any chance of being fixed before OpenStep mutates into Rhapsody? Every other time I have posted an article about this bug I have received mail saying that the behaviour of the NeXT printf is correct. To try and forestall these replies I include the following: The ANSI standard (X3.159-1989) says (Section 4.9.6.1, page 134, line 33): g,G The double argument is converted in style f or e (or in style E in the case of a G conversion specifier), with the precision specifying the number of significant digits. If the precision is zero, it is taken as 1. The style used depends on the value converted; style e (or E) will be use only if the exponent resulting from the conversion is less than -4 or greater than or equal to the precision. Trailing zeros are removed from the fractional portion of the result; a decimal-point character appears only if it is followed by a digit. *** NOTE THE WORDS `precision specifying the number of significant digits'. *** Let's have a look at some examples from the test program: format "%.3g" .001234567 ==== Result was: 0.001 ---- Result should have been: 0.00123 The zero's in 0.00123 are *not* significant. Score 1 against NeXT. format "%.3g" 999.6 ==== Result was: 999.6 ---- Result should have been: 1e+03 The format calls for 3 SIGNIFICANT DIGITS. Rounding 999.6 to three significant digits leaves 1000, which has an exponent equal to the precision and therefore should be printed in e format. Score 2 against NeXT. -- Eric Norum eric@skatter.usask.ca Saskatchewan Accelerator Laboratory Phone: (306) 966-6308 University of Saskatchewan FAX: (306) 966-6058 Saskatoon, Canada. NeXTMail accepted. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 20:29:15 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22817 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61917 comp.sys.mac.system:200332 On 13 Feb 97 07:30:06 GMT, Peter Moller wrote: >campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) writes: > >> An inode contains the timestamps of creation, modification >> and access, permissions and an array of block numbers where > >Correction; there is no time stamp that says when the file is created >(a *major* bummer in my opinion). There are three time stamps that tell >you when a file was last: >1. modified (content) stat.ctime (doubles as "creation time" since chmod is not normally changed). >2. mode changed (file attributes) stat.mtime >3. accessed stat.atime Your correction is understood, but remember the context. The ctime isn't changed all that often; It's changed when the inode *itself* has been manipulated rather than the file it refers to. For instance, once a file's created, how often do *you* think the permission bits need to be manipulated, hmmm??? -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:21:12 -0600 From: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com Subject: [Q]Getting list of windows in Openstep? Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <856285888.5928@dejanews.com> Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Tue Feb 18 17:11:28 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 198.141.173.250 (www.lhr-sys.dhl.com) X-Http-User-Agent: Mozilla/3.01 (Win16; I) X-Authenticated-Sender: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com Lines: 9 Is there any way of getting a list of the visible windows in Openstep, and then their rectangles? Thanks - Please email me a copy of your reply Andre-John -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 97 07:47:53 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 97 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-16.access.one.net In-reply-to: John Kheit's message of 18 Feb 1997 05:51:50 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190059 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20873 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15155 comp.sys.next.advocacy:57989 comp.sys.next.programmer:22819 comp.sys.next.misc:25096 comp.unix.machten:4070 comp.unix.osf.misc:4121 comp.os.mach:4070 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53379 In article <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net>, John Kheit writes: jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) wrote: > OK, > > Let's get it straight guys, for those of you still confused. > The current specified Mach kernel under development (if you > want to call it that) is NOT a microkernel. To further clarify, the current Mach kernel under development is _not_ "under development" in the same sense as replacing it with some other kernel would be "under development". In fact, insofar as that comparison goes, the current Mach kernel is pretty much finished. > OSF Mach 3.0, used in mkLinux, is an actual microkernel. > Apple's Mach kernel will have features from Mach 3.0, but will > not be the true Mach 3.0. Some are jokingly calling this 'Mach > 2.5++'. Yes, this has been rehashed several times, at least in the NeXT groups. If I remember correctly, some of the issues, and at least some consensus came to this concluse (If I got it wrong, please set me straight folks :) That micro kernels tend to be more buzz word hype than valuable... Why, b/c putting things outside the kernel, in general, results in some serious performance penalties for no real functional benefit. Thus, Avie, and the folks at NeXT (now apple), who really know a thing or two about this stuff, to say the least, opted to keep things monolithic for perfromance reasons. Yet the functionality of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. Umm, well, hmm. This is a rapidly evolving area, not only because there are people working on the problem of making microkernels more efficient, but because CPU speeds are outrunning I/O speeds, and main memory sizes are growing quickly (though not really getting faster). On a system like a NeXTstation, where the CPU, memory, and I/O are relatively balanced, a monolithic kernel can be easily more efficient. On a machine like a Pentium Pro 200 with 64M or 128M of RAM, a microkernel's inefficiencies start to lessen when compared to a monolithic kernel. The problem is that the system is becoming I/O bound. A monolithic kernel waiting for something to happen is no more efficient than a microkernel waiting for something to happen. On the other hand, a microkernel allows for things like filesystems to be more easily worked on and replaced, thus potentially improving the _net_ performance. Beyond that, on personal computers you tend to have a few processes using significant resources, but not necessarily doing very many kernel calls per unit of CPU time used. [Excepting web browsers, I supposed :-).] In fact, perhaps the single biggest amount of kernel activity on many systems, after virtual memory activity, is probably the context switching between apps and their windowserver. Microkernels must by nature be very focussed on context switch time as it applies to messaging, so if a microkernel were somewhat quicker there, it would probably cancel out the increase in context switches for many users. Also, I would rephrase things as "the functionality of a monolithic kernel 'as delivered by the vendor' is not reduced". But with a monolithic kernel, replacing things like filesystem drivers is much harder. [I'm not talking about CD-ROM-as-NFS-filesystem like what NeXTSTEP has. I'm talking replacing FFS with, say, an LFS, which is used from boot time onward.] Furthermore, similiar arguments about object oriented kernel design were wrung out... Namely that Mach 4.0 was done in C++, thereby making it OOP... It too might be a situation of more buzzword-checklist hype than reasoned implementation. The kernel being a low level layer of the OS, really needs to be tuned as possible, and OO'ness doesn't necessarily make much sense or add much functionality to that layer/level, and results in more of a performance hit than functionality gain. The message-passing _kernel_ needs to be insanely efficient hand-tuned C with assembly. It's in the critical path of almost every operation the system does, for all that it should only be 50k-100k. The stuff you hang off the kernel can be whatever makes the most sense. With today's larger memories, you can afford a certain amount of slop if your filesystem access patterns can be made more efficient. Obviously, if your filesystem code is 2x the size of hand-tuned C, and doesn't implement anything to improve performance, you'll have a net loss. In any case, why are we even discussing a point made by someone who compares distributed computing to "The Borg"? I _very_ much doubt that OS designers watch Star Trek in order to get wonderful new ideas about the future. [Or is the implication that the Borg run a microkernel operating system? Perhaps Amoeba.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 97 11:36:22 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 81 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22820 comp.sys.mac.system:200339 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61921 shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >No, it's not! Sigh. BSD FFS already does a wide variety of things >that Mac's UFS can't do or doesn't do well. Things like optimal >placement policy, disk fragmentation prevention, longer filenames (256 >bytes per name versus 32), larger filesystems without "clusters" There are definetley things that I'd like to be included in Rhapsody's filesystem and these are among them. BTW: what character encoding does NeXT's filesystem use? I definetley hope they go for Unicode throughout the OS. >_These_ are the really important things. Personally, I could care >less if you moved the other timestamps out of the filesystem, also. >The _only_ things necessary in the inode are the owner, group, >reference count, size, and direct, and indirect block pointers. As long as the user has a stable file system and not the kind of hack that Micro$oft has created to handle long filenames in Virus 95, yes I agree with you. >Why are the last accessed, modified, and inode updated times in there? >Quite simply for performance reasons. These things are being modified >_all_ of the time. Whether the kernel portion of the filesystem is Well, they are *read* quite often, I agree with that. But I'd like to say two things: 1. The MacOS don't have a tenth as many files as Solaris for instance. Thus, this kind of file info isn't read/changed at all as often. The Mac OS, however, fiddles with resources *all* the time, and thus for a Mac it's more important to have a fast resource manager than a fast filesystem (byt I'd love to see a really fast FS). 2. As far as I know, nothing less than a block (usually 512 bytes) is ever read from the hard disk. I don't know, but I assume that the OS doesn't sequentially read in the file header until it finds the information it looks for, but rather it get's it "directly" via an index, right? So how much time does it takes to use another index? I also assume that the file info in the cache behaves equally. Thus more info in the file header will not take more CPU time (unless that info is often referred/changed), right? Reading a few more bytes from the hard disk is hardly relevant here. >the most sensible place to generate this information is moot, because >it simply can't be generated anywhere else with the same speed. When >you're talking about updating something hundreds or millions of times, >a couple CPU cycles begins to make a difference. Yes, definetley. >On the other hand, files are only created once. The fact that a user >process can't generate that info as fast as the kernel can is besides >the point, because the operation only happens once. Yes. >Specifically, though, you're unhappy because you can't find out when a >file was created easily. You don't say that you're unhappy because >the inode structure doesn't contain a creation timestamp. [No, that's >_not_ a silly distinction. You'd have to modify all of the file As I said above, it's not important how the information is stored; in the FS or in some layer above it (possibly together with some revision and multiuser info), that is right. My only "demand" (if I may have one) is that it's rock solid and built in from scratch, i.e. not a hack. Hacks simply aren't good enough. >management utilities to propagate a new timestamp anyhow, just having >the timestamp there won't do squat.] Is it the applications that modify the other time stamps?? I thought it was the FS. >BSD FFS has also been used by several million users for more than a >decade. So that means we can never change it? >BSD FFS was designed for multitasking timesharing server systems, >systems with substantially more disk, memory, and CPU than personal >computers of the day had, in a midsize heterogenous network Oh, it's a good file system, but it can be improved, and this might be a good time. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:27:50 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 31 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61923 comp.sys.next.programmer:22821 comp.sys.mac.system:200344 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Jerome Chan@apk.net > > Sorry, but you're wrong. Macs do not integrate very well with with > > heterogenous network fileservers, because their executables won't be > > runnable when stored on an NFS fileserver (or a NT fileserver, or a > > Novell fileserver, etc). > > That's not true. An NT Fileserver has AppleShare services. I can (and do > store) my files on a winNT3.51 fileserver. I've also encountered Novell > Fileservers which simply appear to the user as AppleShare Servers when I > was at Case Western Reserve University. I can store these files on a > Novell fileserver and run them without any problems. Questions: 1) Can you run a Mac executable directly off of the remote fileservers without moving locally? 2) Does that functionality come with the base installation of the OS, or do you have to pay for that additional functionality? I know that commercial packages exist which will let you do reasonably complete AppleShare capabilities from a lot of different systems, but that means that things don't work out-of-the-box. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hpax!klui From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 18:29:24 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5ecse4$qsc@hpax.cup.hp.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: cup44ux.cup.hp.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190079 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20875 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15158 comp.sys.next.advocacy:57996 comp.sys.next.programmer:22822 comp.sys.next.misc:25097 comp.unix.machten:4071 comp.unix.osf.misc:4122 comp.os.mach:4071 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53385 In article <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net>, John Kheit wrote: >Thus, Avie, and the folks at NeXT (now apple), who really know a >thing or two about this stuff, to say the least, opted to keep >things monolithic for perfromance reasons. I would guess that time to market had a bigger role. But, yes, it seems performance will be better with a monolithic kernel. Ken -- Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com 19111 Pruneridge Avenue General Systems Division Cupertino, CA 95014-0795 USA Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team 1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: Stephen Peters Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 10:30:13 -0800 Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <1997021716473229510531@roxboro-170.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.4.8/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22823 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61925 comp.sys.mac.system:200350 phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) writes: > Stephen Peters wrote: > ] Which begs the question to a die-hard Unix user like myself, if you > ] add the notion of a `preferred application', what use is the `creator' > ] designation other than bookkeeping? As a fallback to a known good > ] application? > > Well for starters some applications can handle the files of a certain > type created by one application but not of another - non standard usage > and all that rot. Hmmm...I suspect that if there were less of an emphasis on the `creator' and more of an emphasis on the types, this kind of situation would occur less often. After all, if MicrosoftWord.app wanted to badly break RTF, they can always create the new MWRTF type. Maybe I'm living in a fantasy world :-) > ] Ditto on the various discussions on adding the `time created' field to > ] augment the last modified and other time codes stored with the file. > ] For me, once I start caring about the time the file was first created, > ] I start caring about all the changes that were made, which seems to > ] scream `revision control system' to me. (And if you copy a file from > ] somewhere else, should it inherit the source file's created time?) > ] > ] Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Can someone help enlighten me? > > Because when you update a applications then look at the file it often > gets translated into the newer version, this is one way of keeping track > of when you started something. But this is kind of my point. For me at least, when I want to know when I started something, I need that information in the context of "what kinds of changes have I made since I created this?" And I think it also begs the paranthetical question I asked above as well. If I copy something, should it inherit the source file's `created' time? If the created time's purpose is to track when I started work, then the answer is yes. If instead the purpose is to track when I started working on this `revision' of the document, then the answer is probably no. In either case, I think it's better to use a revision control system. Heck, maybe we should just write a file system wrapper which does revision control. RCSFS, anyone? (tongue partly in cheek). -- Stephen L. Peters speters@cygnus.com PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE 0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6 "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.s.shuttle.de!news.m.shuttle.de!news.b.shuttle.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!super.zippo.com!zdc!news4.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!starnine!avi.starnine.com!user From: avirr@starnine.com (Avi Rappoport) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 11:55:11 -0800 Organization: StarNine, a subsidary of Quarterdeck Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: avi.starnine.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22824 comp.sys.mac.system:200352 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61927 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4127 It sounds like a useful solution would be for Apple to implement an Error Manager that could be called from applications. That addresses the issue of the application writers not wanting to reinvent the (error) wheel and get the interface and functionality to be consistent. And if designed correctly, the manager could take advantage of OS improvements in the future and applications would automatically get those improvements. Avi _____________________________________________________ Avi Rappoport Product Manager for Mail Products, StarNine/Quarterdeck (510) 649-4949 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!ctp.com!news From: "Georg Tuparev" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 18 Feb 1997 12:07:21 GMT Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5ec61p$iud@concorde.ctp.com> References: <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com NNTP-Posting-Host: haring.nl.ctp.com If the application to be ported uses IXKit, Speaker & Listener, and DBKit/EOF 1.0 it is pain in the a**** But what people are complaining is that the OS dies not include the List class. And I just do not believe that this will cause alot of headache. The only trouble for me converting AppKit/RootClasses to OS was the Storage (in my example I was already using the DO). And yes, some of the hacks are hard to be ported (e.g. I just had to completely rewrite Andy Stone's exploding menus for the new MiscKit), but this is true for any hack no matter what you are porting. And the List and the HashTable are not the reason for rewriting such a hacks. -- georg -- In article <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) writes: > On 18 Feb 1997 08:49:10 GMT, "Georg Tuparev" wrote: > > > >I converted 40k lines program using the scripts for 2 days without any problem -- > >now the program runs even on NT and Solaris, and very soon with GNU OS ... and is > >very happy so. > > > > So, we have: > > (1) NeXT's claim that 50K lines take approximately a month. > (2) Many exchanges such as the following fom c.s.n.misc [...] -- ------- /\/\ Georg Tuparev / /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners \ / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15 \/\/ 1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel: +31(20)575-0492 Fax: +31(20)575-0500 WWW: http://www.ctp.com #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!netnews.nwnet.net!serval.net.wsu.edu!not-for-mail From: joerd@mail.wsu.edu Subject: Advice on Project Builder Sender: news@serval.net.wsu.edu (News) Message-ID: <970218104053.207AAFgI.wayne@pareto> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:40:53 GMT X-Nntp-Posting-Host: pareto.cbe.wsu.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mime-Version: 1.0 (Generated by Eloquent) Organization: Washington State University X-Newsreader: Eloquent[2.01]; Eloquent is a Trademark of Take 3 Lines: 48 I need some advice. I have just upgraded my NextStation (25Mz, 20MB Ram) to Openstep 4.1. I have found that gdb now uses Project Builder for display instead of Edit, thus more or less forcing me to use PB. As I learn PB I have run into some issues that might push me to going back to System 3.3 for the small research oriented programming projects I undertake. (Basically, I want to produce code that runs under generic gcc, so I don't use any of the Nextstep API.) 1. The help/documentation for PB uses the Librarian. The pages have little diamond shaped links to other sections, but the diamonds are not functional. When I click on one it changes color but does not take me to the new location. This makes using the documentation quite frustrating. Is there something wrong with my installation? 2. Using PB is quite slow. From my disk activity it seems that 20MB ram is not sufficient. Can I expect a significant speed up if I jump up to 32 MB ram? 3. Executing gdb from the command line of a terminal leads to ackward interface with PB. For example, when stepping thru code a step into another function in another file doesn't cause PB to bring the window for the new file up to the top, I have to click on the window to manually bring it to the top. Is there a fix for this? 4. "printf()" no longer seems to print to the terminal correctly. It drops "\n" characters and seems to put text in a different buffer than "cout". "cout" works fine. Is this a known bug? Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Wayne Joerding Professor of Economics Ofc: 509-335-6468 Washington State University FAX: 509-335-4362 PO Box 644741 http://cbeunix.cbe.wsu.edu/~joerd/ Pullman WA 99164 email: joerd@mail.wsu.edu "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do?" -- John M. Keynes #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!inet-nntp-gw-1.us.oracle.com!news From: Jason Lincoln Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: SQL*Net and EOF Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 00:58:34 +0000 Organization: Oracle Corp. Lines: 9 Message-ID: <3308FEBA.538E@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: reserved-dhcp-44-101.us.oracle.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I) I am trying to connect my NeXTstation to a test Oracle database using SQL*Net v2. I have created a tnsnames.ora file with a description of the database I am trying to connect to. When I try to connect in EOModeler I get a ORA-6152 error. Is there a HOWTO which explains the steps necessary to accomplish the SQL*Net connect from EOF? Thanks, Jason #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:39:06 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 29 Message-ID: <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200356 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61930 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4128 comp.sys.next.programmer:22828 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 18-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > In any case, I come back to the original point, that in most cases it > is inappropriate for the OS to send an error/exception back to processes > that are waiting on resources, without at least trying some recovery, > either automatic or with operator assistance first. If the OS doesn't > do this then you do not have a very robust OS. Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of robust! You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled within the process. Go perform some research on operating system design theory, Ian. You might learn something about why your suggestion is so mistaken. ------------ (*) Or whatever equivalents you want to consider for non-Unix systems. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Christian Kuhtz Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 19:49:56 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5ed154$fu@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: ftc-co1-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Feb 18 11:49:56 AM PST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190086 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20876 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15159 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58003 comp.sys.next.programmer:22829 comp.sys.next.misc:25098 comp.unix.machten:4072 comp.unix.osf.misc:4123 comp.os.mach:4072 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53387 shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: [..] > [Or is the implication that the Borg run a > microkernel operating system? Perhaps Amoeba.] Perhaps Amoeba with a NetBSD personality, absorbing any, no matter how old, computing equipment in its path. Voila, BorgOS. -- Christian Kuhtz MIME/NeXTmail Ok UNIX/Network Specialist "A German in the U.S., speaking for himself *gasp*" Paranet, Inc., Rocky Mountain Branch http://www.paranet.com/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:30:45 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 210 Message-ID: <0n2UBZ600iWk05nyw0@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> <3308EBD5.61F7@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <3308EBD5.61F7@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200361 comp.sys.next.programmer:22830 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61931 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4129 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 18-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org [ ... ] >>> Not exactly. The OS should ask the user/an operator what to do, locate >>> the file, kill the process, ignore the file and continue. You have >>> quite a few options. >> >> The operating system does not have the decision-making powers of a >> human, and it cannot make a decision between the alternatives you've >> listed-- it will only do what it's programmed to do. Therefore, you've >> either got to pick _one_ of the alternatives, or else provide a >> deterministic and decidable algorithm that the OS can use to select an >> alternative. > > I think we are saying the same thing now. That is exactly what I am > saying, to OS should in many situations consult a human. I completely disagree. With the exception of severe errors due to external reasons like hardware failure, the OS should never have to consult a human when an error condition occurs; instead, the OS should report the error to the process, and let the process decide for itself whether human intervention is required. This allows processes to continue running if the process determines for itself that it knows how to proceed after encountering whatever error condition happened, instead of always blocking. [ ... ] >> Of course, you've failed to address the crucial point I've made, which >> is that _any_ of the choices you've listed will be an inappropriate >> action for some processes. No matter how many choices you come up with >> and how complicated the algorithm to select between them is, I'll be >> able to come up with situations which require different error handling >> than what you've stated that the OS should do. > > That's an idle threat, It is neither idle nor a threat. It's merely a fact that I'll be happy to demonstrate for you if you choose to test my words. > but even if I was to embark on this process, it > does not invalidate the OS design issue I have outlined. The OS should report severe errors when they occur, and the OS may require human intervention in the face of hardware failure or other exceptional conditions, but it is completely inappropriate for the OS to require human intervention when an open() call fails because the file wasn't found. Your design suggestion that the OS should always consult a human operator even when minor, correctable error conditions occur instead of passing errors to the process is completely flawed. [ ... ] >> But Unix doesn't block when open() fails-- it returns EACCESS >> immediately, which allows to process to decide whether to continue, ask >> the user for help, or do whatever else it finds appropriate, such as >> terminate. >> >> That's a far superior solution to blocking. > > No it's not a far superior solution to blocking. Consider if the open > fails for some hardware problem on the disk. OK, the OS passes the failure > back to the process, which decides to terminate, and do nothing more. > Clearly, this must notify the operator that hardware is malfunctioning, > and very likely the operator can help the process out by redirecting it > to another disk unit. This is much more robust than just passing the > error straight back to the process, which can't do anything. If an exceptional condition like a drive failure happens, either: (a) you've got a RAID system and redundancy already built in and open() will be successful because the RAID system provided the needed fault tolerance, or (b) the drive failure means that the file is gone, and there is nothing that can be done to get the file back short of replacing the drive and restoring from backups. Asking the human what to do is futile; either the process can continue without the file, in which case having the OS report the error without waiting for the human is superior, or else the process cannot continue until the drive is replaced, and again it won't matter what the human says to do. [ ... ] >>>> Because not all tasks will want to handle a particular error condition >>>> in the same way? >>> >>> But what I am saying is that you can do a good OS design by evaluating >>> all those ways, and then giving the option (which might also include some >>> automatic policy that circumvents the user/operator). >> >> (A) It's impossible for the OS designer to incorperate every possible >> way that a process might want to handle every possible error condition, >> and, > > Well you would have to prove it were impossible, Proof by induction: I can design a simple program which does some operation (like an open()) and is capabable of handling one error which might occur before the process decides to give up and terminate. Assuming I have a program which handles n error conditions, I can write a program which handles n+1 error conditions by adding one operation surrounded by an error handler before the program code for the program which handles n error conditions. If you really want, I can even demonstrate C code for the above, but it should be obvious how to implement that. > ...but even assuming that it is, that does not mean that OSs should not > have better facilities for picking up the many common situations that we > are interested in. OSs that don't handle these situations, and many don't, > do not provide an adequate level of robustness. So you've been claiming. Your attempts to demonstrate why this is true so far have come down to the suggestion that the OS block waiting on human intervention. Try again. > > (B) even if it was possible, why would you want to bloat the OS with all > > of that code when it's simpler and easier to design processes that > > perform the error handling that they need? > > "Bloat", well Unix has already got bloated, Do you remember what I told you about provocative comments? We've already concluded that you are from Unisys and have certain biases for the Unisys operating system, and you are doing a great job of displaying a strong bigotry against Unix. Your bigotry is leading you to make patently false claims-- the Unix aspects of NEXTSTEP require less disk space than some GUI applications, and an order of magnitude less disk space than Microsoft's latest office suite. > but aside from this that is a silly comment. Why do you think that all > application programs should be bloated with code that handles common > problems. Because application programs should decide for themselves how to handle those problems, because they may decide to do different things depending on complex state behavior that is not readily available to the operating system itself. > That adds to the code that a programmer must produce; means you have > maintenance problems to handle all the cases; means you have testing > problems to test all the cases; means you have just made every project > much more expensive to complete (well most projects get killed anyway); > and means you have missed the fundamentals of reuse. Don't try to tell me about code reuse and designing error handling systems. I was the primary author of a popular NEXTSTEP product called CrashCatcher, which only required the addition of one line to the original source code in order to augment an Objective-C program with quite sophisticated error handling functionality. Of course, the developer could add a little more code and be able to perform arbitrarily complex error handling behavior within a framework that was well-debugged, modular, and extensible. >> Good operating system provide well defined interfaces to support >> processes, and these interfaces should be made as small, as simple, and >> as elegant as possible while still providing all of the functionality >> that's needed. Complex functionality like a window system, or a math >> library, or a set of error handling routines belongs in user space, not >> in the kernel. >> >> Ever hear of modularity? > > Did you ever hear of modular operating systems? Yes. > Do you understand what an OS kernel is? Yes. > It is not where I am suggesting putting this functionality, but neither is > it in the user space, although that terminology is confused as well. You mean you are confused by the terminology-- I understand the distinction between user space and kernel space quite well. If the CPU is in kernel mode (or supervisor mode, etc), we're talking about error handling within the operating system which is running in kernel space, and vise versa for "user mode" and "user or process space". [ ... ] > To explain the interface is still the same. The open call remains the > same. What I suggest is to reevaluate the contract of the call, and > determine that much of what needs to be done is common, and > therefore should not be on the calling side of the interface. In fact > if you think about it many errors cannot be handled by the application, > they have to be handled between the OS and the operator. Nonsense. The only errors that must be handled between the OS and the operator are severe errors like hardware failure, and they generally require human intervention for the simple and practical reason that there is no way for any layer of software (whether it be the process or the kernel) to recover. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!news.sgi.com!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 19:08:29 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5ecund$rcn$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5dts78$bot$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: phenix@interpath.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22831 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61933 comp.sys.mac.system:200363 In <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote: > John Rudd wrote: > ] The reason this is a problem on a Mac isn't because it's stored in a > ] central location.. it's because the Mac doesn't allow you to pick file > ] type over file creator for its launching heuristic, and then give a > ] seperate file-type <-> application binding for different "profiles" > ] (even if its' just swapping a file at runtime). If it did allow this > ] (even the crude run time swapping of the binding file), then it > ] wouldn't be a problem. > > It DOES allow you to override the launching application but ONLY if the > creating application is not available. It's called Macintosh Easy Open > and it could be extended to work properly (override even application > which ARE available) in the current system, let alone in the next. That's kind of what I meant.. You can't choose to open by file type _OVER_ file creator. If the file creator data is there, and the file creator app exists on that machine, you MUST use it. You cannot choose a file type application OVER that creator app. I didn't say you can't open by file type at all. I simply said the Mac doesn't give you a choice between the two -- if creator exists you use it, otherwise you use type... no choice. -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 97 16:18:30 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 98 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-14-28.access.one.net In-reply-to: peterm@dna.lth.se's message of 17 Feb 97 09:15:37 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22832 comp.sys.mac.system:200367 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61935 In article , peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >_doesn't_ justify putting that information in _the_ filesystem. >This thread has had suggestions which accomplish the same things >over top of the existing filesystem, rather than by modifying ^^^^^^^^^ >things at a low level. Well, this is a question: Apple (50 million claimed users) buys NeXT (a couple of millions users ?). Apple has one file system, NeXT another. I assume that the unified company will end up having one filesystem. Which one? Either way, one of them will have to change. As a Mac user, I don't see it as a modification to have a created time stamp. I under- stand that you, as a unix user, will view such a thing as a change. And I will, in my turn, view it as a change to not have it and have three time stamps for last change etc. instead. It's a matter of perspective. No, it's not! Sigh. BSD FFS already does a wide variety of things that Mac's UFS can't do or doesn't do well. Things like optimal placement policy, disk fragmentation prevention, longer filenames (256 bytes per name versus 32), larger filesystems without "clusters" (NeXT's 2G limitation is because they're only using 32 bits in the kernel, FFS would be happy enough with larger filesystems), multi-user support, almost seemless NFS integration. _These_ are the really important things. Personally, I could care less if you moved the other timestamps out of the filesystem, also. The _only_ things necessary in the inode are the owner, group, reference count, size, and direct, and indirect block pointers. Why are the last accessed, modified, and inode updated times in there? Quite simply for performance reasons. These things are being modified _all_ of the time. Whether the kernel portion of the filesystem is the most sensible place to generate this information is moot, because it simply can't be generated anywhere else with the same speed. When you're talking about updating something hundreds or millions of times, a couple CPU cycles begins to make a difference. On the other hand, files are only created once. The fact that a user process can't generate that info as fast as the kernel can is besides the point, because the operation only happens once. > This is not a question of "who's right", but rather "how do we > make both happy?" > >Well, except that I'm trying to argue that you shouldn't be >unhappy with how it's currently done (in Unix) :-). I've been a unix sysadmin since 1990, and I have missed a creation time stamp all those years. In fact, I've missed a lot of things on my Sun (as much as I have missed some unix-things on the Mac). Specifically, though, you're unhappy because you can't find out when a file was created easily. You don't say that you're unhappy because the inode structure doesn't contain a creation timestamp. [No, that's _not_ a silly distinction. You'd have to modify all of the file management utilities to propagate a new timestamp anyhow, just having the timestamp there won't do squat.] >More broadly, though, the filesystem obviously cannot be changed >to make everyone happy. Right, but how about maintaining a file system that has been used by several millions of users for more than a decade? BSD FFS has also been used by several million users for more than a decade. BSD FFS was designed for multitasking timesharing server systems, systems with substantially more disk, memory, and CPU than personal computers of the day had, in a midsize heterogenous network environment. Systems, in fact, which look suspiciously like the personal computer systems of today, except that today's PCs have high-resolution video output devices. HFS, meanwhile, was designed to run in a box with 128k of RAM, on a system which would be used by a single user, in a small homogenous networking environment. Put another way, HFS was designed for the personal computers of yesterday, while FFS was designed for the minicomputers of yesterday. Today's personal computers are beyond the minicomputers of yesterday in many ways. Don't think that there aren't things I'd like to change about FFS. I'd like to see journalling, and the ability to defer metadata update. I'd like NeXT to allow the number of disk buffers to interact with VM pages so that server systems can sacrifice VM for better I/O speed. I'd like a reasonable RAID implementation, and their SCSI drivers to work with my Fast-10 SCSI controller at 10MB/s rather than 5MB/s. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.191.213.61!ott.istar!istar.net!gateway.qnx.com!not-for-mail From: danh@qnx.com (Dan Hildebrand) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.qnx Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 14:47:03 -0500 Organization: QNX Software Systems Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5ed0vn$if7@qnx.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.qnx.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190126 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20877 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15161 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58024 comp.sys.next.programmer:22833 comp.sys.next.misc:25099 comp.unix.machten:4074 comp.unix.osf.misc:4124 comp.os.mach:4073 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53395 comp.os.qnx:11927 In article <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net>, John Kheit wrote: >jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) wrote: >> OK, >> Let's get it straight guys, for those of you still confused. >> The current specified Mach kernel under development (if you >> want to call it that) is NOT a microkernel. OSF Mach 3.0, used >> in mkLinux, is an actual microkernel. Apple's Mach kernel will >> have features from Mach 3.0, but will not be the true Mach 3.0. >> Some are jokingly calling this 'Mach >> 2.5++'. > >That micro kernels tend to be more buzz word hype than valuable... Just as with monolithic kernels differing in quality of implementation, microkernels also differ in quality of implementation. There are several microkernel OS's that benefit from having this architecture. >Why, b/c putting things outside the kernel, in general, results in >some serious performance penalties for no real functional benefit. None? There are several, well documented in the literature (why else would all this work into microkernel OS's be done in the first place?) >Thus, Avie, and the folks at NeXT (now apple), who really know a >thing or two about this stuff, to say the least, opted to keep >things monolithic for perfromance reasons. Yet the functionality >of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. Performance varies dramatically between different kernels, be they monolithic or microkernel. Quality of implementation is more important than microkernel vs monolithic kernel. -- Dan Hildebrand (danh@qnx.com) QNX Software Systems, Ltd. http://www.qnx.com/~danh 175 Terence Matthews phone: +1 (613) 591-0931 Kanata, Ontario, Canada fax: +1 (613) 591-3579 K2M 1W8 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!data.ramona.vix.com!sonysjc!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!colloquy.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!mencjo.apple.com!user From: jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 04:22:44 GMT Organization: De Anza College Lines: 29 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: mencjo.apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190129 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20878 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15162 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58026 comp.sys.next.programmer:22834 comp.sys.next.misc:25100 comp.unix.machten:4075 comp.unix.osf.misc:4125 comp.os.mach:4074 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53396 OK, Let's get it straight guys, for those of you still confused. The current specified Mach kernel under development (if you want to call it that) is NOT a microkernel. OSF Mach 3.0, used in mkLinux, is an actual microkernel. Apple's Mach kernel will have features from Mach 3.0, but will not be the true Mach 3.0. Some are jokingly calling this 'Mach 2.5++'. The near future is distributed cluster based microkernel which I believe is evident in Mach 4.0. Microsoft with licenses from DEC will implement a distributed cluster based Operating System with Windows NT 5.0. Apple will implement a monolithic kernel with Rhapsody. This kernel will be upgraded to provide SMP (Symmetrical Multiprocessing). Distributed microkernels will not only use SMP, but will also use other processors and resources of various computers across high speed network across different computers. Some may say this is analogous to the Borg in Star Trek. - joaquin -- ############################################################### # My opinions are my own and not of any I work for. # ############################################################### # WARNING: DO NOT send unwarranted mail or SPAMS! Further # # proceedings of sending unwarranted email or spams will # # result in fines up to $1000 in damages. # ############################################################### #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!news.tamu.edu!news.ttu.edu!usenet From: Jason Patrick Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NeXTSTEP and JAVA Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 13:05:10 -0600 Organization: The crazy fellow Lines: 7 Message-ID: <3309FD2B.749A@4thdim.com> Reply-To: jason@4thdim.com NNTP-Posting-Host: accs08-12.ttu.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Does anybody know where I can get the JDK for NeXT? I could not locate it on Sun's sight. Thanks Jason Patrick #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!not-for-mail From: marcel@sysyem.de Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 20:08:22 GMT Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany Lines: 19 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ed27m$qgb$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> References: Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de In article shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: [dealyed metadata updates] > You get no argument from here. 1) I'm the only user of the > filesystems in question, and there's really nothing that I can't > rebuild quickly enough as-is. Assuming that the async updates do flow > out to disk relatively frequently (I'd assume during the 30-second > sync), and that they flow out in an orderly fashion (the filesystem is > always recoverable, perhaps without those last three operations). 2) > I put _all_ of my machiens on UPS's, not just servers :-). Check out 'Metadata Update Performance in File Systems' by Gregory Ganger and Yale Patt. They describe a method of reordering metadata updates in such a way as to achieve delayed updating while maintaining consistency. Cool stuff that allows log file-system performance with a traditional FFS. Marcel #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!rain.fr!ai.alienor.fr!xlan!news From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr Subject: Re:(Correction) MouseDown+Drag and SHIFT!! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: hp-712-60 Message-ID: Sender: news@x-lan.alienor.fr Organization: x&lan X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8a) References: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:33:28 GMT Lines: 32 > /*next I use mouseDownLocation for drawing. But I'd > like to use the real mouse position (cursor position?) > because there is a shift between the real position of the > mouse(cursor) and the point I'm using.*/ This shift is not a coordinate shift because I've made a ...convertPoint:mouseDownLocation fromView:nil.. to get the value in the good coordinate system. The shift comes from the drawing time : the mouse is moving while I'm drawing. mouseDown here : ->x DRAWING DRAWING mouse is now here : ->y But my image appears on x... If you could understand my explanations thaks for help. -- --------------------------------------- | O_O | O_O -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Fred Galot fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!sn.no!hermod.uio.no!nntp.uio.no!news.global-one.no!news1.transpac.net!news5.transpac.net!news.netg.se!dd.chalmers.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 21:25:16 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Lines: 28 Message-ID: <5ed6ns$k4c@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: ras05.itek.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: shess@one.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22838 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61940 comp.sys.mac.system:200386 In Scott Hess wrote: > > OTOH, I keep coming back to the thought that, when you come right down > to it, if you _only_ manipulate the file through the UI, it really > doesn't make a bit of difference whether it's a forked file, a > directory wrapping individual files, or a database filestore of some > sort. You don't care. It's only those of us who ever access files > from somewhere other than the UI (command-line _or_ programmatically) > who care. > I think much of the debate stems from people -- usually Macintosh users, it seems -- being too interested in how things are done, instead of how well they work. If a normal user does not see a difference, does it really matter how it is done? The point of using systems such as the Mac, or even more so the NeXT is not having to worry about how things work. And still be confident that they do work. Again, the interface is the only thing that matters. Implementation is a trivium. --- John Hornkvist --- nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already... If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 05:51:50 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> References: Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190154 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20879 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15166 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58043 comp.sys.next.programmer:22839 comp.sys.next.misc:25101 comp.unix.machten:4076 comp.unix.osf.misc:4126 comp.os.mach:4075 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53405 jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) wrote: > OK, > Let's get it straight guys, for those of you still confused. > The current specified Mach kernel under development (if you > want to call it that) is NOT a microkernel. OSF Mach 3.0, used > in mkLinux, is an actual microkernel. Apple's Mach kernel will > have features from Mach 3.0, but will not be the true Mach 3.0. > Some are jokingly calling this 'Mach > 2.5++'. Yes, this has been rehashed several times, at least in the NeXT groups. If I remember correctly, some of the issues, and at least some consensus came to this concluse (If I got it wrong, please set me straight folks :) That micro kernels tend to be more buzz word hype than valuable... Why, b/c putting things outside the kernel, in general, results in some serious performance penalties for no real functional benefit. Thus, Avie, and the folks at NeXT (now apple), who really know a thing or two about this stuff, to say the least, opted to keep things monolithic for perfromance reasons. Yet the functionality of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. Furthermore, similiar arguments about object oriented kernel design were wrung out... Namely that Mach 4.0 was done in C++, thereby making it OOP... It too might be a situation of more buzzword-checklist hype than reasoned implementation. The kernel being a low level layer of the OS, really needs to be tuned as possible, and OO'ness doesn't necessarily make much sense or add much functionality to that layer/level, and results in more of a performance hit than functionality gain. Anyway, that's the gist of what I took from previous threads on this topic. If I got something substantially wrong, I hope someone chimes in and corrects my ignorance on the matter :) -- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed... monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Ja tallar ente svenska )^> %^) =^) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:42:39 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 18 Message-ID: <3309414F.56250C0F@screaming.org> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190157 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20880 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15167 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58046 comp.sys.next.programmer:22840 comp.sys.next.misc:25102 comp.unix.machten:4077 comp.unix.osf.misc:4127 comp.os.mach:4076 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53406 Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > Let's get it straight guys, for those of you still confused. > The current specified Mach kernel under development (if you > want to call it that) is NOT a microkernel. ...nor does its use prevent it from being replaced with one. > # WARNING: DO NOT send unwarranted mail or SPAMS! what about needless crossposts? [followups trimmed] -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in1.uu.net!140.162.1.25!seismo!sed.psrw.com!news.apk.net!pm5-18.apk.net!user From: jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 23:37:28 -0500 Organization: TofuSoft Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: pm5-18.apk.net X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61945 comp.sys.mac.system:200390 comp.sys.next.programmer:22841 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Sorry, but you're wrong. Macs do not integrate very well with with > heterogenous network fileservers, because their executables won't be > runnable when stored on an NFS fileserver (or a NT fileserver, or a > Novell fileserver, etc). That's not true. An NT Fileserver has AppleShare services. I can (and do store) my files on a winNT3.51 fileserver. I've also encountered Novell Fileservers which simply appear to the user as AppleShare Servers when I was at Case Western Reserve University. I can store these files on a Novell fileserver and run them without any problems. --- The Evil Tofu (Only Human) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!pagesat.net!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 97 21:35:56 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> <1997021716474229511116@roxboro-170.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-14-8.access.one.net In-reply-to: phenix@interpath.com's message of Mon, 17 Feb 1997 16:47:42 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22842 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61948 comp.sys.mac.system:200409 In article <1997021716474229511116@roxboro-170.interpath.net>, phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) writes: Scott Hess wrote: ] In article <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com>, ] "Jonathan W. Hendry" writes: ] Okay. My beef is with the Macintosh's usage of the creator code, ] not the existence of one. ] ] OK, then, I'll beef. If some bit of information is not really ] necessary, then it shouldn't be added to the filesystem. If the ] creator code is just a nice little bit of trivia which follows a file ] around, but isn't necessary to figure out who to open the file with, ] then who cares? If it's in the information the filesystem maintains, ] then it's a drag on _every_ file, _every_ access, _every_ program. It may be a drag [your trying to save 4 bytes worth] on every file, but it has NOTHING at ALL to do with ACCESSING the file. Yes it does. With an inode of a given size, you can fit a given number of inodes in a block. If each inode contained twice as much data, there would be half as many inodes per block, requiring twice as many blocks to be read to retrieve a given set of inodes. On the surface, this looks like a trivial concern. Unfortunately, it's not the inodes you _intend_ to access that get you - it's the inodes you _didn't_ intend to access. Accessing /Users/shess/Work/InDevelopment/SomeCode.subproj/AFile.m doesn't access only the inode associated with AFile.m - it also potentially accesses the inodes for each directory from root on down. Launching a given application might reference a couple hundred inodes in the first couple seconds. I'm not suggesting that adding a creation timestamp to inodes is going to bring the system to its knees. But if you add just any bit of trivia to the inode, you soon _will_ bring the system to its knees. Besides, in this case, you can store the creator info (and other info) in a seperate file. Then only the apps which care about that file pay any penalty at all for having it there. Other programs don't care. [This is all such a stupid discussion, anyhow. Everyone who uses open(2) and other kernel calls as your I/O interface in a shipping GUI application, raise you hands (so that I can slap them). In all likelyhood, you'd be using stdio, or some set of functions from the system's GUI library. If you have NSOpenFile(), NSOpenFork(), NSCreationTime(), and whatnot, then who _cares_ whether it's implemented as files-in-a-directory or forked files with creation timestamp in the inode? In fact, a good argument can be made that it's really none of your business, as any dependencies you code in on forks versus files-in-a-directory restrict what the system's implementors can do in the future.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.belwue.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!nntp-xfer.ncsu.edu!news From: exfjnzl@rbf.apfh.rqh (Ravi K. Swamy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 03:41:42 GMT Organization: Gunsmith Cats Lines: 14 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: c01021-111poe.eos.ncsu.edu X-Anti-Spam-Message: use rot13 to decode my email address or get from .sig X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.0-2 BETA UNIX) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22843 comp.sys.mac.system:200410 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61949 In article , Scott Hess wrote: [snip] >Don't think that there aren't things I'd like to change about FFS. >I'd like to see journalling, and the ability to defer metadata update. I know FreeBSD file systems can be mounted to do asynchronous metadata updates. Linux's ext2 does asynch metadata updates by default. (*Please* do not argue which is better for stability etc. it's been beaten to death already) Perhaps it is only the FFS in 4.4 Lite than can do asynch metadata updates? Or perhaps the FreeBSD guys added this. -- Ravi K. Swamy http://www4.ncsu.edu/~rkswamy/www/ rkswamy at eos.ncsu.edu root@genom.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.207.165.222!smash.gatech.edu!bicycle.ee.gatech.edu!user From: schooley@ee.gatech.edu (David C. Schooley) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs Subject: Re: OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 -- printf %g still broken Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 15:59:25 -0500 Organization: Georgia Tech Electric Power Jocks Lines: 83 Message-ID: References: <5ecoph$74i@tribune.usask.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: bicycle.ee.gatech.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22844 comp.sys.next.bugs:4204 In article <5ecoph$74i@tribune.usask.ca>, eric@skatter.USask.Ca wrote: > I just finished installing OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 (Intel). I then checked to see if > my favorite bug had survived yet another version: > [snip] > eric@pisces 225> cc -o printfcheck printfcheck.c > eric@pisces 226> ./printfcheck > Expect 0.00123: 0.001 > Expect 123: 123.457 > Expect 123.5: 123.4567 > Expect 1e+03: 999.6 > eric@pisces 227> > I compiled and ran your code under Solaris. I got: Expect 0.00123: 0.00123 Expect 123: 123 Expect 123.5: 123.5 Expect 1e+03: 1e+03 [snip] > > The ANSI standard (X3.159-1989) says (Section 4.9.6.1, page 134, line 33): > > g,G The double argument is converted in style f or e (or in style E in the > case of a G conversion specifier), with the precision specifying the > number of significant digits. If the precision is zero, it is taken > as 1. The style used depends on the value converted; style e (or E) > will be use only if the exponent resulting from the conversion is less > than -4 or greater than or equal to the precision. Trailing zeros are > removed from the fractional portion of the result; a decimal-point > character appears only if it is followed by a digit. > > *** NOTE THE WORDS `precision specifying the number of significant digits'. *** > It looks like whoever is responsible for the ansi libraries at NeXT needs an explanation of the term "significant digits". (Years ago, my high school chemistry teacher refered to them as "significant figures". We called them "sig figs" for short.) On the other hand, the ANSI specification may be somewhat to blame, since it uses the term "precision" to specify the number of significant digits. It looks like the meaning of 'g' and 'G' changed between K&R and the ANSI standard. Either that, or the writer of the ANSI spec didn't know the meaning of "significant digits". From K&R, 2nd ed. g, G: use %e or %E if the exponent is less than -4 or greater than or equal to the precision; otherwise use %f. Trailing zeros and a trailing decimal point are not printed. e, E: [-]m.dddddde+/xx or [-]mddddddE+/xx, where the number of 'd's is given by the precision. f: [-]m.dddddd, where the number of 'd's is given by the precision. So, I agree that NeXT is wrong with regards to the ANSI spec, but I'm not sure that the ANSI spec means what the writer wanted it to say. Removal of the trailing zeros is inconsistent with keeping the proper number of significant digits. For consistency with the sig. fig. specification, the result from printf ("Expect 1e+03: %.3g\n", 999.6); should be 1.00e-3, since that has 3 significant digits, and 1e+03 only has 1. later, ---Dave--- ------------------------------------------------------------- David C. Schooley | Ph.D. in progress | Hey, New York, Georgia Tech Electric Power | | Please put our flag back! | ------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!news.starnet.net!news.starnet.net!news.inlink.com!not-for-mail From: sschaper@inlink.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:22:21 GMT Organization: InLink Lines: 15 Message-ID: <330a0f52.17122045@news.inlink.com> References: <3309a1c9.11108823@news.rmplc.co.uk> <87u3nayt41.fsf@phaedrus.uchicago.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: athena.inlink.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190166 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20882 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15168 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58057 comp.sys.next.programmer:22845 comp.sys.next.misc:25103 comp.unix.machten:4078 comp.unix.osf.misc:4128 comp.os.mach:4077 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53407 On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 16:30:22 GMT, stephen farrell wrote: > >i don't fully understand this point. developers can go out right now >and purchase openstep for mach on intel, sparc, and hppa platforms, >and for winNT, and solaris. why doesn't apple encourage them to do >so, and make sure that the final product they deliver is simply >openstep compliant (or at least just needing trivial fixes and a >recompile)? If one were to use the Mach 3.0 kernal from MKLinux, would this also work in the present with OpenStep? > #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!EU.net!Norway.EU.net!sn.no!hermod.uio.no!nntp.uio.no!news.global-one.no!news1.transpac.net!news5.transpac.net!news.netg.se!dd.chalmers.se!news.chalmers.se!usenet From: John Hornkvist Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 21:31:56 GMT Organization: Chalmers Tekniska Hgskola Message-ID: <5ed74c$k4c@nyheter.chalmers.se> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> Reply-To: sorry@no.more.spams NNTP-Posting-Host: ras05.itek.chalmers.se X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: jkheit@cnj.digex.net Lines: 85 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190167 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20883 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15169 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58058 comp.sys.next.programmer:22846 comp.sys.next.misc:25104 comp.unix.machten:4079 comp.unix.osf.misc:4129 comp.os.mach:4078 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53408 In <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> John Kheit wrote: >jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) wrote: >> OK, >> Let's get it straight guys, for those of you still confused. >> The current specified Mach kernel under development (if you >> want to call it that) is NOT a microkernel. OSF Mach 3.0, used >> in mkLinux, is an actual microkernel. Apple's Mach kernel will >> have features from Mach 3.0, but will not be the true Mach 3.0. >> Some are jokingly calling this 'Mach >> 2.5++'. > >Yes, this has been rehashed several times, at least in the NeXT >groups. If I remember correctly, some of the issues, and at least >some consensus came to this concluse (If I got it wrong, please >set me straight folks :) > >That micro kernels tend to be more buzz word hype than valuable... Well... Micro kernels do have some nice chracteristics. But, as with most things, it has become more of something that "we have, too" than a tool used to provide better operating systems. >Why, b/c putting things outside the kernel, in general, results in >some serious performance penalties for no real functional benefit. Putting things outside the kernel results in performance problems if you don't move enough out of the kernel. The primary cost is switching between user and supervisor moder, and if you have too much functionality in the kernel, you'll be doing a lot of switching. You can make a micro kernel run fast, just as you can make an objective C program run fast. You just have to remember where the problems are. I'm not sure that Mach is the best place to start if you really want a good micro kernel, though. The monolithic but message passing Mach 2.5 is an excellent foundation for an OS, though. >Thus, Avie, and the folks at NeXT (now apple), who really know a >thing or two about this stuff, to say the least, opted to keep >things monolithic for perfromance reasons. Yet the functionality >of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. It is reduced, but not in a way that will matter on a personal computer. More modular approaches make sense if you run on MPP systems, for example. So, I hope Apple redesigns the kernel before they come out with an OS for systems with more than, say, 64 processors. :) >Furthermore, similiar arguments about object oriented kernel design >were wrung out... Namely that Mach 4.0 was done in C++, thereby >making it OOP... It too might be a situation of more buzzword-checklist >hype than reasoned implementation. The kernel being a low level >layer of the OS, really needs to be tuned as possible, and OO'ness >doesn't necessarily make much sense or add much functionality to >that layer/level, and results in more of a performance hit than >functionality gain. Micro kernel design is similar to RISC chip design; you try to find the most commonly used functions, and then speed those up. Less common things are done by combining simpler operations. If you use static binding and inlining, C++ would be good for the lowest level of an OS, I think. Remember that with C++ object orientation seems to end as soon as you compile... By the way, I would think that NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP stresses the OS in ways that a normal operating system may not do, and therefore the kernel has to be optimized differently. That may affect the choice of kernel; Mach 3 or "the Copland micro kernel" are unlikely to be optimized for running OPENSTEP. NeXT's Mach is likely to be highly optimized for that purpose. In addition to that it is stable, has been ported to many architectures, and is the foundation for OPENSTEP today. All in all, there is nothing wrong with cool technology, as long as it doesn't get away of important matters. --- John Hornkvist --- nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se Working on MSc in Computer Engineering, and MSc in Industrial Engineering and Management of Technology Does anyone need a NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP savvy programmer for the summer of '97? Sorry for not leaving my address in the header, but I get too many spam mails already... If you want to reach me, try nhoj at cd dot chalmers dot se #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!netnews.sbphrd.com!campbejr From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 20:26:00 GMT Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development Lines: 66 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021810351033363403@roxboro-161.interpath.net> Reply-To: soup@jtan.com NNTP-Posting-Host: phu989.sbphrd.com X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.5) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22847 comp.sys.mac.system:200419 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61956 On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 10:35:10 -0500, John Moreno wrote: >Scott Hess wrote: > >-snip- >] >] BSD FFS has also been used by several million users for more than a >] decade. >] >] BSD FFS was designed for multitasking timesharing server systems, >] systems with substantially more disk, memory, and CPU than personal >] computers of the day had, in a midsize heterogenous network >] environment. Systems, in fact, which look suspiciously like the >] personal computer systems of today, except that today's PCs have >] high-resolution video output devices. > >But it can still use some extensions - adding file type/creator and a >creation time isn't a bad idea, although where that information is kept >is another matter (it could be kept in a database and accessed by >fileID#). BAD IDEA. The reason behind keeping the information within the file's i-node is *very* simple: synchronization. The more "independant" pieces you have, the more likely a loss of synchronization will occur. Think of a filesystem as a database, tracking it's own use of space. A filesystem resides in a "linear" array of blocks (granules) and some of them are set aside to maintain a list of used granules. (What they are used for most often is not relevant to the model.) The i-nodes track this, but how do you know what to do with this array of record-keeping units? This is where directories come from; A directory provides an access method and name space for the i-nodes. An i-node (except for *extremely* large files) is an atomic object; When additional information is needed for a file, this is the most logical place to "hide" it. If, instead, you want to do it one level up (allowing each name to have different information) hid it in the directory entry (which *can* be done as long as the dirent.h or direct.h files are updated and you disallow anybody from directly getting at the contents of a directory). Now using BSD's FFS looks appealing, it *still* prefers a "clean" shutdown, and a fsck utility would be needed on each startup. Perhaps a newer model is needed; The ADVFS within DEC Unix looks like a parallel development with IBM's JFS for AIX; These are *Journalling* filesystems, allowing updates to be handled in a disk-resident queue (good for recoveries). If we can enhance the i-node structure (and add goodies for it's manipulation, either via ioctl() or other means) at the same time, we'll have something that really *cooks*. -- John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler soup@jtan.com "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me Disclaimer: I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so, if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must have more lawyers than sense. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!news@tiac.net From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP and JAVA Date: 18 Feb 1997 23:54:31 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5edffn$1cj@news-central.tiac.net> References: <3309FD2B.749A@4thdim.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.215.178.89 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Jason Patrick wrote: >Does anybody know where I can get the JDK for NeXT? I could not locate >it on Sun's sight. There is no such thing. There is no complete JDK. There are some problem with AWT port. Anyway one might consider kaffe as a JVM, but I doubt it would build with old version of gcc NeXT is still shipping with Mach. Do I understand things correct? I don't wanna build most recent version of gcc just to compile recent version of kaffe. Regards, Aleksey #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:04:19 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 71 Message-ID: <330A4383.339A@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200429 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4136 comp.sys.next.programmer:22849 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61961 Further on this subject there is a new thread in comp.lang.eiffel on "Using REQUIRES for synchronisation." My post there explains what I have been talking about in a slighly different way. What we really have is a concurrency issue. For example, any read to a file is essentially a concurrency problem... your process will probably suspend until the required data is read from disk. Many calls to an OS can be seen this way, as you might have to suspend until the requested resource becomes available. The general principle here is that the OS should do its utmost to satisfy the request, as should any call to any routine. This scheme greatly simplifies client coding as you then don't have to handle a miriad of different exceptions. If a call fails, it really is serious! Now there are certain exceptions, like what if a process overruns certain user set limits. Then swift termination is the best course. Or if you really are running an operator free system, perhaps this might be the best course, but such would have to be set as a system wide option. Besides for operator free systems you really want to ensure a very stable environment, such as a file server... no nasty development and testing of buggy programs on such a machine! As an example of concurrency, consider a stack: class STACK [T] empty: BOOLEAN top: T require not empty end end In a non-concurrent environment, the "require not empty" returns an exception to the caller if the stack is empty. However, in a concurrent environment, the "require not empty" suspends the calling process until some other process has put something in the stack. This ensures implicit synchronisation between processes with no fuss, mess or complication of exception handling in the caller. Now if the client really does not want to suspend they add code to skip the call: if not stack.empty then t := stack.top end Now if we apply that paradigm to files and other OS resources, much of the complication in handling exceptions in applications disappears. Perhaps I did not explain this very well in the first place, but I hope that makes it clearer to Charles. I am also not saying this to defend MacOS or criticise NeXT. However, some of the weaknesses of Unix should be understood, and the fact that Unix is not in many respects the perfect OS. Neither does it handle memory sharing and resource synchronisation at a very high level, and why it has not swept aside all those "horrible mainframe" OSs is due to the fact that it does not have very good server capabilities such as TP monitors, apart from Tuxedo. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: Larry Kendall Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:32:40 -0400 Organization: Netcom Lines: 6 Message-ID: <330A2E07.563D@ix.netcom.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: col-oh2-03.ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Feb 18 5:27:23 PM CST 1997 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01-C-AICK1-2 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61964 comp.sys.next.programmer:22850 comp.sys.mac.system:200433 With The standard Novell for Mac nlms running on 3.1.1 you can store and run your executables from the novell file server. I've been doing it for years. If the program requires system extension they have to be in the ext folder of the local Mac of course. lak #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!blackbush.xlink.net!vas.bull.de!usenet From: Petr Novak Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Bug with flattened attribute ? Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:31:42 +0100 Organization: Impact GmbH,Cologne, Germany Lines: 12 Message-ID: <3309D96D.7A59@microcomp.de> Reply-To: novak@microcomp.de NNTP-Posting-Host: 194.120.248.5 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Hallo ! Sybase 11, EOF 2.0 , NT 4.0 I have following problem: Master-detail relationship,detail NSTableView shows flattened attribute. After delete in detail entity,adaptor deletes also record from entity to which flattened attribute belongs. Is there some possibillity to forbid it ? Petr Novak #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!jussieu.fr!oleane!calvacom!not-for-mail From: "Stphan Mertz" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Updates in EOF 2.0 Date: 18 Feb 1997 16:54:18 GMT Organization: Improve SA Lines: 2 Message-ID: <01bc1dbc$49bc5df0$afbecec2@neuteu> References: <330993BA.2738@microcomp.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: lil15.calvacom.fr X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1157 Look at the EODisplayGroup. It's the new manager for the UI in EOF2.0. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-mannheim.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!tutnix.rhein-neckar.de!espresso.hf.org!hauke From: hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:27:30 +0100 Organization: Einzeln auftretender Radfahrer Lines: 49 Message-ID: <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: q700.hf.org X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b3 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22853 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61968 comp.sys.mac.system:200453 Scott Hess wrote: > In article <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> John Hornkvist writes: > Resource forks is only a way to reimplement directories inside a > file. > > Which brings up an interesting question ... can anyone tell me if > there's a limit on the number of files you can have on HFS? It just > occurred to me that perhaps forks are a means of effectively doubling > the number of files without requiring more metadata overhead. As far as I recall, there _was_ a limit of about 6k files per volume. But the Mac fs is a moving target, and they may have lifted that restriction before it seriously bit anyone. > [I'm making two assumptions, here. One is that Way Back When, Mac had > small disks, and for every file which needed a resource fork, you'd > have needed twice as much metadata overhead. Furthermore, files may > have been referred to with small integers to save space in the > metadata.] You're close... Actually, the resource fork pattern has always been appealing to me as a perfect approach to handle the hundreds of little data structures that a GUI application needs to run. Icons of various shapes and sizes, templates for menues, windows, dialogs, controls, code snippets... all of who would otherwise have littered the file system - and do so in other OSes. If you can do similar things with wrappers in a consistent manner, then it's for the sake of portability allrigt with me; but portability left aside, the forks add an additional abstraction level in a (for me) simple and elegant manner. > OTOH, I keep coming back to the thought that, when you come right down > to it, if you _only_ manipulate the file through the UI, it really > doesn't make a bit of difference whether it's a forked file, a > directory wrapping individual files, or a database filestore of some > sort. You don't care. It's only those of us who ever access files > from somewhere other than the UI (command-line _or_ programmatically) > who care. Agreed. hauke -- "It's never straight up and down" (DEVO) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Referencing externs from loaded bundle on OpenStep/NT - how? Date: 18 Feb 1997 16:49:27 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 51 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ecmin$kh2@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <5e64bp$t62@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca5-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Feb 18 10:49:28 AM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) wrote: > How does one, in a > dynamically-loaded module, subclass a class that's defined in the main > executable? > > For example, IB defines attributes inspector classes for various UI > objects (e.g. IBButtonInspector). Under Mach, we take advantage of this > inspector classes when we write palettes that contain button subclasses. We > start with the button attribute inspector nib included with IB, unparse the > inspector class to generate a suitable header, subclass and add one or more > ivars. We add an appropriate UI to the standard button attribute inspector > panel, change the class of the File's Owner to our own IBButtonInspector > subclass, build, and load into IB. Works great under Mach. > > But under OS/NT, our IBButtonInspector subclass fails to build due to a > link error: IBButtonInspector not defined. Certainly there must be a "hack" > that will solve this problem. Since source to IB isn't available, we can't > create a DLL that defines IBButtonInspector and load that into our palette. Thanks to Mont Rothstein for a workable solution: > If you are working under 4.1 try adding the following to your > Makefile.preamble: > > WINDOWS_PB_LDFLAGS = -Xlinker /FORCE > > This will force the linker to finish even though there are undefined > symbols. Since you will be in IB when the code executes, and therefore the > symbols will exist, this should be fine. And thanks to Paul Marcos for warning that using the linker's /FORCE option will cause linking to succeed even when other linking problems exist that will lead to the failure of the executable to perform as expected. For explicit use of a class object when the class hasn't been defined in the current module, NSClassFromString() can be used without generating an unresolved external symbol that would prevent linking. But when subclassing a class that isn't defined in the current module and for which no DLL that defines the class exists, /FORCE may be the only option. Tests are underway to determine whether another approach might exist. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 OPENSTEP/NT Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!visi.com!not-for-mail From: David Young Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: NeXTSTEP and JAVA Date: 19 Feb 1997 03:44:52 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5edsvk$mko$3@darla.visi.com> References: <3309FD2B.749A@4thdim.com> <5edffn$1cj@news-central.tiac.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970123] Aleksey Sudakov wrote: : There is no such thing. There is no complete JDK. There are some problem with : AWT port. Anyway one might consider kaffe as a JVM, but I doubt it would : build with old version of gcc NeXT is still shipping with Mach. Do I : understand things correct? I don't wanna build most recent version of gcc : just to compile recent version of kaffe. Old version gcc with Mach compile your source good, comrade. -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem2-01.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:30:34 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9cre$if1@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem2-01.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22856 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61971 comp.sys.mac.system:200459 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >Either you can put _any_ file on a remote system like an Auspex NFS >server, and have it work correctly, or else some crucial parts of what's >on a Mac filesystem cannot be stored on remote fileservers because they >won't work correctly. I suggest you learn about a format called AppleDouble, this stores a Mac two-forked file as two separate files on "dumber" file systems (this was originally developed for A/UX, AFAIK). RFC 1740 uses AppleDouble to avoid the interoperability problems in any MIME-complaint Mail User Agent. This is usually handled client side. >I think it would be good if Rhapsody did not suffer from the same >heterogenous interoperability problems that Macs currently suffer from >trying to share files on non-Mac filesystems. Alleged "heterogenous interoperability problems". -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Where do you think the idea for the Borg came from? ;) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 01:32:46 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> <330A2E07.563D@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <330A2E07.563D@ix.netcom.com> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22857 comp.sys.mac.system:200473 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61975 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 18-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Larry Kendall@ix.netcom. > With The standard Novell for Mac nlms running on 3.1.1 you can store and > run your executables from the novell file server. I've been doing it for > years. If the program requires system extension they have to be in the > ext folder of the local Mac of course. Okay, thanks for the correction. Even so, the point still applies to just NFS servers, which is more relevent for me.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!not-for-mail From: mail25193@pop.net (Fred Trottelhauer) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.unix.bsd.misc Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 19 Feb 1997 04:31:03 GMT Lines: 54 Message-ID: <5edvm7$t2v@news0-alterdial.uu.net> References: Reply-To: mail25193@pop.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cust42.max13.new-york.ny.ms.uu.net X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 v1.2.5 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190282 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20891 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15181 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58092 comp.sys.next.programmer:22858 comp.sys.next.misc:25107 comp.unix.machten:4086 comp.unix.osf.misc:4130 comp.os.mach:4079 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53452 comp.unix.bsd.misc:2840 In , jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) writes: > Microsoft with licenses from DEC will implement a >distributed cluster based Operating System with Windows NT 5.0. This will need to be watched very carefully, since Microsoft up until now has shown itself to be oriented, under the guise of a cheerily populist "software for the people", only towards foisting stunted garbage onto the public. Mircosoft rakes in billions by virtue of its marketing skill while real computing power is not allowed to reach the masses; Bill gets press as such a lovely bright young man while the interests that would maintain a mediocre status quo and a population which is not independent have their needs met. If this is another effort in that same vein, then it isn't worth a damn. The company reminds me of what a New York City resident said in my hearing one day, "we're the greatest city in the world. We have the greatest art, the most brilliant minds, the finest culture. We buy it all." That mode does nothing to maintain a living discipline, a growing ecosystem (computing ecosystem in this case) - it reduces it to a dead commodity sold by degenerate undead profiteers to stupified consumers. Mircosoft should stick to end-user products for the low end of the market, and keep its nose out of areas of the industry that matter in more than the short term. > [...]Some may say this is analogous to the Borg in >Star Trek. Your references aren't really an asset to your case... Fred Just as an aside, imagine for a moment what things would be like if everyone in the workplace (note ! - just the workplace) who now has a PC on their desk running a DOS/MS derivative would instead have a PC on their desk running Unix with a GUI, a minimal administrative interface, and the productivity tools equivalent to what they have under MS (which exist, please don't even start that discussion.) Imagine ! Half _years_ between reboots No stalls as your OS decides it's time to do some multitasking Fast task switching from the user perspective instead of Sominex-qualified GUIs Real, fast networking without hiccups and hangs Grown-up quality distributed facilities for file sharing and security A computing base that doesn't need a "revolution" every few years just to keep pace with hardware growth and user needs, because instead it is a non-stunted and correct implementation of the cutting edge of developments in the field. Imagine, particularly if you're involved in the business end of things, the BILLIONS of dollars in increased productivity which would be realized if this were the case now, nevermind if it had been the case for the last say eight years. Microsoft just doesn't cut it as the candidate to lead the way into the computing future. Others are more than qualified. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!nntp.mainstreet.net!ns2.mainstreet.net!sloth.swcp.com!reader1.news.act.net!genoa.com!usenet From: Alex Blakemore Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 18 Feb 1997 04:14:17 GMT Organization: Genoa Software Systems Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5ebaap$6db@saturn.genoa.com> References: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> Reply-To: Alex Blakemore NNTP-Posting-Host: jupiter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: johnh@madcow.dircon.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:58095 comp.sys.next.misc:25108 comp.sys.next.programmer:22859 In <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> John Holdsworth wrote: > I don't want to sound like a luddite but... > I've put a fair amount of time into scoping the amount of work > involved in porting some real applications onto OpenStep only > to find that the common classes List, HashTable etc all gone > from the OpenStep spec. Which is why Object, List, HashTable, StringTable and Storage ARE still available in NeXT's implementation of OPENSTEP, even if they are not officially part of the spec. For backward compatibility. I wouldn't recommend using them in new apps though. > While I'm at it lets keep strings as a data type rather than a class. Give NSString a chance, most people I've observed find it alot simpler to deal with than char * and its nice to only have to remember one approach for allocation, deallocation etc - even if a few operations are a little more awkward. Plus you get Unicode support. -- Alex Blakemore alex@genoa.com NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.cis.okstate.edu!nntp.ksu.edu!castor.cca.rockwell.com!news From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 18 Feb 1997 19:11:08 GMT Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins Lines: 36 Message-ID: <5ecusc$9p0@castor.cca.rockwell.com> References: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> <5ebqe6$hu6@concorde.ctp.com> <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: apuleius@ix.netcom.com > >It is true. NEXTSTEP != OPENSTEP as far as the API goes. > >There are some major differences, some of which are > >conceptual and require not just changing method names, but in > >some cases completely _rewriting_code. Stuff that uses > >streams a lot can be onerous, for example. Having done some > >NEXTSTEP->OPENSTEP conversion, I will openly state: > >it is non-trivial to do! > > and > > (4) Georg's assertion that it's a piece of cake. > > Draw your own conclusions about the validity of what Georg says. > To be fair, a LOT depends on how your code is structured. I wrote a tetris game for NeXTStep 1.0 that was difficult to convert to Openstep. It was one of my first NeXT apps. In contrast, a 44k line app for one of my customers was converted in a "few" days. Of course, the app was already FoundationKit based. We have ended up re-writing a lot of the GUI code for the app anyway to take advantage of the "new" way to do things. Streams, file descriptors, -performWith:afterDelay:cancelPrevious:, and a few others like NXPing are replaced with cumbersome code. Use NSData to simulate streams. I have not found a work around for the lack of file descriptors in Postscript How does MiscSerialPort handle this ? -performWith:afterDelay:cancelPrevious: can be simulated with NSTimer and NSNotification NXPing becomes [[NSDPSContext currentContext] wait] #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hpax!klui From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs Subject: Re: OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 -- printf %g still broken Date: 18 Feb 1997 20:51:37 GMT Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company Lines: 34 Message-ID: <5ed4op$t4c@hpax.cup.hp.com> References: <5ecoph$74i@tribune.usask.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: cup44ux.cup.hp.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22861 comp.sys.next.bugs:4205 In article <5ecoph$74i@tribune.usask.ca>, wrote: >eric@pisces 224> cat printfcheck.c >#include > >int main (int argc, char **argv) >{ > printf ("Expect 0.00123: %.3g\n", 0.001234567); > printf ("Expect 123: %.3g\n", 123.4567); > printf ("Expect 123.5: %.4g\n", 123.4567); > printf ("Expect 1e+03: %.3g\n", 999.6); > return 0; >} >eric@pisces 225> cc -o printfcheck printfcheck.c >eric@pisces 226> ./printfcheck >Expect 0.00123: 0.001 >Expect 123: 123.457 >Expect 123.5: 123.4567 >Expect 1e+03: 999.6 >eric@pisces 227> [...] >Every other time I have posted an article about this bug I have received mail >saying that the behaviour of the NeXT printf is correct. To try and forestall >these replies I include the following: The above program runs giving the expected results on HPUX 9.05, if it means anything to you; so your expected results and HPUX's output at least coincides. Ken -- Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com 19111 Pruneridge Avenue General Systems Division Cupertino, CA 95014-0795 USA Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team 1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem2-01.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:44:02 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem2-01.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61983 comp.sys.mac.system:200494 comp.sys.next.programmer:22862 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >However, I can't NFS mount a remote fileserver on a Mac and be able to >run Mac executables, because they require the out-of-band information >stored in their resource forks which is not representable within the >standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms. Doesn't the lame wrapper approach cause "problems" equal to that(AppleDouble certainly causes only as many problems as "wrappers")? Ideally, a MacOS NFS client would store Mac files on a NFS server in AppleDouble format (executables in AppleSingle would be better) and make the process seamless to the client Mac (I'm pretty sure that current clients already do this, if they don't, that's a problem). Netatalk and CAP do the reverse, to MacOS they work exactly the same as a "real" AppleShare server, without need of a Mac filesystem on the server (I don't see why a NFS client couldn't do something similar client-side). -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Rejected Microsoft ad slogans #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news.ececs.uc.edu!newsrelay.netins.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 1997 01:03:00 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5ee52k$arh@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61984 comp.sys.mac.system:200499 comp.sys.next.programmer:22863 In article , jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) wrote: > I don't want to sacrifice the useful > features of HFS and destroy what the Mac is just to satisfy a bunch of > people that probably still won't buy Macs. Huh? You mean the NEXTSTEP people? You think we're going to abandon all the new work going on in the OS just because Apple bought it? (Well, maybe, if they screw up the OS.) NEXTSTEP users stuck with the OS when there was far less incentive to do so; of course they'll buy it from Apple. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 01:01:19 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 39 Message-ID: <199702190101192935764@roxboro-180.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-180.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61985 comp.sys.mac.system:200501 comp.sys.next.programmer:22864 Charles William Swiger wrote: ] Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & ] Unix: File S.. by John Siracusa@bu.edu ] >: It doesn't make sense when files and applications can be used ] >: by multiple users. ] > ] > I don't see how that is. File type and creator information doesn't ] > vary from user to user. ] ] While that is true, the Mac paradigm uses that information to make the ] decision as to which application should open a particular file. ] ] The Mac paradigm doesn't work very well when you consider a multiuser ] operating system because individual users should be able to decide for ] themselves which app should open a file and not have their decisions ] change what happens to other users. The Mac way of doing it isn't the BEST way of doing it - a slight modification could be made which would make it about 10 times better - but it really doesn't have anything to do with whether it's a multiuser OS or not. The original system makes the (perfectly reasonable) assumption that *most* of the time your going to be opening files with the application that created it, and it's not too much of a added burden to open the file from within the application if your going to use a different one. This is just as valid for a dozen users as it is for a single one, WHAT has changed since the original system is the number of applications available. With the increase in the number applications available the odds of wanting to use a different application from the creator has gone up - even though it's STILL true *most* of the time for most users - and with the changing odds they need to make a few additions. They made a half-hearted effort with Macintosh Easy Open, and will soon find out that they need to finish it up and do it right. MEO as it is currently address only the most blatant problem with the current method, the one that confusing inexperienced users. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:10:01 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 45 Message-ID: <330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200502 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61987 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4144 comp.sys.next.programmer:22865 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 18-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > > In any case, I come back to the original point, that in most cases it > > is inappropriate for the OS to send an error/exception back to processes > > that are waiting on resources, without at least trying some recovery, > > either automatic or with operator assistance first. If the OS doesn't > > do this then you do not have a very robust OS. > > Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell > it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of > robust! You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial > system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper > encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS > of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled > within the process. You are not only not reading correctly what I am saying, but in your misreadings are quite wrong. > Go perform some research on operating system design theory, Ian. Go do some research on Netiquette. You might find that you get more pleasant exchanges with people. Technically, you should go and use a system other than Unix. > You might learn something about why your suggestion is so mistaken. From what I have seen you certainly don't have a monopoly on truth, and even further quite a meagre understanding, and probably not much experience beyond the confines of Unix. You are doing pretty well in monopolising beligerence. Please come back to the group only when you can write in a politer tone. You are too quick too accuse others of bias, ignorance and stupidity, and this displays a high level of arrogance. I don't subscribe to the belief that this is what Internet news groups are for. As I have said before, please keep it technical. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 01:58:55 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 69 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> <330A4383.339A@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <330A4383.339A@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200505 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4146 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61990 comp.sys.next.programmer:22866 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > For example, any read to a file is essentially a concurrency problem... > your process will probably suspend until the required data is read > from disk. That depends entirely upon how the process wants to read the file. The process can decide to perform non-blocking I/O file with the O_NDELAY or O_NONBLOCK flags to open(), or via select() on a set of open file descriptors. > Many calls to an OS can be seen this way, as you > might have to suspend until the requested resource becomes > available. The general principle here is that the OS should do > its utmost to satisfy the request, as should any call to any routine. The general principle is that the OS should attempt to maximize throughput by minimizing the number of resources held simultaneously by any process. The reason why processes may block waiting on a resource to become available is to allow the CPU (which itself is a crucial system resource) to be used by other processes until the current process can make progress. You want to avoid deadlock as best you can, and doing so involves trying to make critical sections as small as possible, as well as trying to avoid resource contention as far as the properties of resources allow. [ ... ] > Perhaps I did not explain this very well in the first place, but I > hope that makes it clearer to Charles. I am also not saying this > to defend MacOS or criticise NeXT. However, some of the weaknesses > of Unix should be understood, and the fact that Unix is not > in many respects the perfect OS. I've never said Unix was the perfect OS-- but I haven't found a better alternative so far, either. > Neither does it handle memory sharing and resource synchronisation at a > very high level, Not at the operating system level, no. That's why people write software layers on top of the OS, such as OPENSTEP, which provide higher level abstractions which use the more primitive functionality provided by the OS. And that's where those high-level abstractions belong-- not in the kernel.... > and why it has not swept aside all those "horrible mainframe" OSs is > due to the fact that it does not have very good server capabilities > such as TP monitors, apart from Tuxedo. Your typical Unix workstation is an entirely different class of machine from a mainframe-- the former is often running a GUI for a user on console, whereas the latter was designed to provide tremendous I/O bandwidth and was intended less for interactive use and more for transaction processing. But the age of "big iron" is mostly over, and even the mainframe's hold on it's traditional strength of large scale server applications is eroding in the face of fast, cheap workstations and distributed computing systems. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.radio.cz!CESspool!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.unisource.nl!news.unisource.nl!wwwserv1.shell.nl!news From: "Terje A. Bergesen" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 08:18:33 +0100 Organization: NSEP Lines: 20 Message-ID: <330AA949.3801@to.me.please> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> Reply-To: no.email@to.me.please NNTP-Posting-Host: gate.shell.nl Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190333 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20895 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15194 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58114 comp.sys.next.programmer:22867 comp.sys.next.misc:25110 comp.unix.machten:4087 comp.unix.osf.misc:4131 comp.os.mach:4080 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53481 John Kheit wrote: [...] > That micro kernels tend to be more buzz word hype than valuable... > Why, b/c putting things outside the kernel, in general, results in > some serious performance penalties for no real functional benefit. I really don't think this is a microkernel vs monolithic issue. I think it is an implementation issue. There are good examples, both in theory and in real life of implementations of microkernel OS's that have good performance. I haven't (sadly, I haven't got the time) looked at QNX for a while, but last time I looked it had a kernel of some 8K or something in that area, and excellent performance. ____________________________________________________________________ --- Terje Bergesen - I speak only for me, not for my employer. --- --- Email adress can be decuted from: t.bergesen at shell.no #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!csulb.edu!drivel.ics.uci.edu!news.service.uci.edu!dialin9118.slip.uci.edu!user From: rmcassid@uci.edu (Robert Cassidy) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:29:20 -0700 Organization: UC Irvine Lines: 9 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin9118.slip.uci.edu X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190335 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20896 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15195 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58116 comp.sys.next.programmer:22868 comp.sys.next.misc:25111 comp.unix.machten:4088 comp.unix.osf.misc:4132 comp.os.mach:4081 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53486 In article <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net>, jkheit@cnj.digex.net wrote: > of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. ^ Sorry, it might be correct but that's just one ugly-assed word :-) -Bobness Cassidyness #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 97 07:42:43 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22869 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61993 comp.sys.mac.system:200512 campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell) writes: > stat.ctime (doubles as "creation time" since chmod is not normally > changed). > For instance, once a file's created, how often do *you* think the > permission bits need to be manipulated, hmmm??? Often enough that this timestamp is *not* a reliable information of when a file was created. Period. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newspump.sol.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 97 07:46:03 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22870 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61994 comp.sys.mac.system:200513 shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >Which brings up an interesting question ... And another one: what happends if you move or rename an application in NeXTOS? Can I still double-click my document and have the correct application launch? Or is it like Solaris, where everything have to be where you once put it and don't you dare renaming it! (No need to say I find this reliance of paths infantile and stupid). On my Mac I can rename and move an application and the desktop database finds it immediately when I open a document. Even the aliases (soft links) survive. Rhapsody better keep this behaviour or a lot of Mac users will be angry and encounter problems. Just a question. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 97 07:52:34 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 39 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <32FB9565.5193@subsequent.com> <5e2rne$d5e@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> <5ecefl$5d1@kwek.omroep.nl> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22871 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61995 comp.sys.mac.system:200515 >: While the Mac users abhorance of file extensions is largely religious, >: it will probably need to be honored for the sake of a smooth migration >: path. However this could be as simple as hiding the extension from view >: in the Finder. I wouldn't call it religous, it's practical, logical etc. WHY should the user have to spend mental time and energy trying to remember extensions?? WHY? It's stupid. The application knows it and that suffices. An example: the extension "DOC" in the WIntel world meand "Micro$oft Word Document" and only that. It does not tell you what version of messy word it is. And the named word processor can handle a lot of other file types (from the BNDL-resource of Word 5.1): TEXT, WDBN, GLOS, WHLP, WPRD, sDBN, edtt, WDIC, WDEC, WDPC, SITD - and this is just one application!! One difference of the typical Macintosh user and users of other computer systems is that the Mac user generaly uses more applications than other users. Having to know information which there is no rational reason whatsoever to know would, I'm sure, stifle that using habit. Give me one rational reason to remember extensions! With the Mac scheme of creator/file type, I can easily have both FreeHand 5.5 and FreeHand 7.0 on my hard disk at the same time and use the newer application until I know I really want to have it. And when I throw the old one out, the new one knows directly when I open an old document exactly what kind of document it is and how it should treat it - all without looking at the content of the file (which takes time - at least more time than to look at the file type). And to have extensions but hide it in the Finder - sweeet jesus... So when you look at the files from another point of view (another kind of file browser, your own application or you have files on a floppy and you insert that floppy in a PC or unix machine or you simple transfer a file with ftp to another kind of machine) you will not see the same kind of information that you otherwise do and that's a major "No-no" in the Apple world, and with good reasons. Having this kind of "solution", one might just start to use the fabulous filesystem that WIntel uses... -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc!szdc!szdc-e!ppp.manual.com!user From: kindall@manual.com (Jerry Kindall) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 17:59:47 -0500 Organization: Manual Labor Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5dts78$bot$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> <5ecund$rcn$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp.manual.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.3 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22872 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61997 comp.sys.mac.system:200517 In article <5ecund$rcn$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: >In <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote: >> John Rudd wrote: >> ] The reason this is a problem on a Mac isn't because it's stored in a >> ] central location.. it's because the Mac doesn't allow you to pick file >> ] type over file creator for its launching heuristic, and then give a >> ] seperate file-type <-> application binding for different "profiles" >> ] (even if its' just swapping a file at runtime). If it did allow this >> ] (even the crude run time swapping of the binding file), then it >> ] wouldn't be a problem. >> >> It DOES allow you to override the launching application but ONLY if the >> creating application is not available. It's called Macintosh Easy Open >> and it could be extended to work properly (override even application >> which ARE available) in the current system, let alone in the next. > >That's kind of what I meant.. You can't choose to open by file type _OVER_ >file creator. If the file creator data is there, and the file creator app >exists on that machine, you MUST use it. You cannot choose a file type >application OVER that creator app. I didn't say you can't open by file type >at all. I simply said the Mac doesn't give you a choice between the two -- >if creator exists you use it, otherwise you use type... no choice. Sure there's choice. You can open the appropriate application, then use its Open command to open the file, or you can drag the document icon onto the application icon. In the latter case it can even be an alias. If you have OneClick, you can use my HotPlate palette to force files to be opened by a particular app with one keystroke. For example, I have my Mac configured to open the highlighted files in ResEdit when I hit Command-Shift-R, in Netscape Navigator when I hit Command-Shift-N, in Photoshop when I hit Command-Shift-P, and so on. -- Jerry Kindall Manual Labor Technical Writing; Internet & WWW Consulting Author of the Web Motion Encyclopedia The comprehensive animation and video reference for Web designers Coming Summer '97 from Waite Group Press #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!agate!news.ucsc.edu!metricom04.ucsc.edu!user From: bwanga@cats.uc*sc.edu (Timothy A. Seufert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 00:37:12 -0800 Organization: Evil Geniuses For A Better Tomorrow, Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: metricom04.ucsc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22873 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:61998 comp.sys.mac.system:200519 In article <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org>, hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) wrote: >Actually, the resource fork pattern has always been appealing to me as a >perfect approach to handle the hundreds of little data structures that a >GUI application needs to run. Icons of various shapes and sizes, >templates for menues, windows, dialogs, controls, code snippets... all >of who would otherwise have littered the file system - and do so in >other OSes. > >If you can do similar things with wrappers in a consistent manner, then >it's for the sake of portability allrigt with me; but portability left >aside, the forks add an additional abstraction level in a (for me) >simple and elegant manner. The MacOS resource fork does present many advantages. However, it doesn't really need the concept of a "fork" to work. Forks are just a method of making two files appear as one to the user. There is no reason why the Resource Manager can't be slightly hacked so that it operates on the lone fork of a file in a single-fork file system. A resource file then goes in the app wrapper, along with any other required files (like the executable). All of a sudden, you've got the Resource Manager working inside the app wrapper paradigm. It's better than before because it no longer relies on multiple forks. A cleaner concept might be to rewrite the RM so that what it actually does is to pack a directory tree into a single file. RM calls should work equally well whether a resource tree is in a packed container file or expanded into the filesystem. During progam development, you keep the tree unpacked, for easy manipulation of its contents. For a shipped program, you package the tree into a container file, to reduce the number of files that are actually going onto the end user's system. -- -Tim Seufert, bwanga@cats.uc*sc.edu The * is to fool automated email address grabbers. Remove it if you wish to send me email. No unsolicited commercial junk mail! #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!feed1.news.erols.com!news.ecn.uoknor.edu!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!das-news2.harvard.edu!news.dfci.harvard.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!not-for-mail From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Anyone know if OS4Mach 4.1 supports EIDE CDROMS???? Date: 18 Feb 1997 23:23:17 -0500 Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA Lines: 8 Message-ID: <5edv7m$vn3@lynx.dac.neu.edu> References: <5e2ffv$3o2s@yuma.ACNS.ColoState.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: lynx.dac.neu.edu Content-Type: text/html X-No-Archive: yes They do, although I have not been able to get OPENSTEP/Mach 4.1 to recognize my Sony CDU 33a. -- ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!gateway.cam-ani.co.uk!news.cam-ani.co.uk!news From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:28:14 GMT Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.cam-ani.co.uk Lines: 10 In article Hans Mulder writes: > nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote: > >In article <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > >I.e., Terminal.app? > Why not install it in the usual place and make it hidden? Move it into /NextAdmin? $an #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!gateway.qnx.com!249!mphunter From: mphunter@249.com (Michael Hunter) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Date: 19 Feb 1997 15:03:09 GMT Organization: QNX Software Systems Ltd. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5ef4nd$qut@qnx.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.qnx.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190363 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20902 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15198 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58128 comp.sys.next.programmer:22876 comp.sys.next.misc:25112 comp.unix.machten:4090 comp.unix.osf.misc:4133 comp.os.mach:4083 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53504 Scott Hess (shess@one.net) wrote: : In any case, why are we even discussing a point made by someone who : compares distributed computing to "The Borg"? I _very_ much doubt : that OS designers watch Star Trek in order to get wonderful new ideas : about the future. [Or is the implication that the Borg run a : microkernel operating system? Perhaps Amoeba.] Since the aliens in ID4 had DOS its wouldn't be a wonder if Apple looked to the stars for their salvation. -- * Michael Hunter (mphunter@qnx.com, http://www.qnx.com/~mphunter) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!peer.news.u-net.net!yama.mcc.ac.uk!horus.ecmwf.int!syy From: syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 1997 11:54:58 GMT Organization: ECMWF (European Weather Centre) Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5eepmi$r6e@horus.ecmwf.int> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> NNTP-Posting-Host: thrall.ecmwf.int Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22877 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62006 comp.sys.mac.system:200529 There's a tendency in the NeXT community not to grok the utility of MacOS features like file type & creator codes, Macintosh Easy Open, and full drag-and-drop capability. NeXTfreaks might say: |> >Among the data stored in the application segments ... are the |> >information on which kind of document (file extension) one given app can |> >open. For example, PhotoShop.app could open ".tiff", ".eps", ".gif"..., |> >IconBuilder.app could open ".tiff" documents only. The user can choose a |> >default application (among those able) to open a given kind of document. |> >This is a user's preference. This is a Mac user's preference too. The file TYPE code is analogous to a filename extension (but unintrusive). An app knows which file types it can handle. The file CREATOR code simply indicates which app created the file. Double-clicking a file tries to launch that app. If the app isn't found, Macintosh Easy Open launches to ask the user to nominate a substitute app which can handle that file type. Easy. From then on, that app becomes that user's preferred launch. And for further user flexibility, there's drag-and-drop. NeXTfreaks might say: |> >Once more, you have the choice. If you prefer, you can command-drag your |> >file icon onto a running or "docked" application icon to have it opened in |> >a different app. That's good. On a Mac it's even better. You can simply drag (no need for the command key) any document onto any app, as long as that app is willing to handle that file type. The app can be anywhere (in a folder, on the desktop, in the Launcher, wherever), and it can be running or not. Doesn't matter. Just drag any document onto any app, and if the app can handle that file type, it will launch (if not already running) and ingest the document. I keep aliases of all my most-used and favourite apps on my desktop, mostly for the specific purpose of drag-and-drop. -- Mike Connally Consultant, Data Handling Project European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts (ECMWF) Shinfield Park, Reading, Berks RG2 9AX England Tel: +44-1734-499253 Email: Mike.Connally@ecmwf.int #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!gateway.qnx.com!not-for-mail From: danh@qnx.com (Dan Hildebrand) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 19 Feb 1997 08:11:30 -0500 Organization: QNX Software Systems Lines: 45 Message-ID: <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: gateway.qnx.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190366 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20904 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15199 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58131 comp.sys.next.programmer:22878 comp.sys.next.misc:25113 comp.unix.machten:4091 comp.unix.osf.misc:4134 comp.os.mach:4084 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53509 In article , Scott Hess wrote: >In article <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net>, > > That micro kernels tend to be more buzz word hype than valuable... > Why, b/c putting things outside the kernel, in general, results in > some serious performance penalties for no real functional benefit. > Thus, Avie, and the folks at NeXT (now apple), who really know a > thing or two about this stuff, to say the least, opted to keep > things monolithic for perfromance reasons. Yet the functionality > of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. > >Umm, well, hmm. This is a rapidly evolving area, not only because >there are people working on the problem of making microkernels more >efficient, but because CPU speeds are outrunning I/O speeds, and main >memory sizes are growing quickly (though not really getting faster). >On a system like a NeXTstation, where the CPU, memory, and I/O are >relatively balanced, a monolithic kernel can be easily more efficient. Easily? Can you back this up? While some monolithic kernels are faster than some microkernels, this is not universally true. >Beyond that, on personal computers you tend to have a few processes >using significant resources, but not necessarily doing very many >kernel calls per unit of CPU time used. [Excepting web browsers, I >supposed :-).] In fact, perhaps the single biggest amount of kernel >activity on many systems, after virtual memory activity, is probably >the context switching between apps and their windowserver. >Microkernels must by nature be very focussed on context switch time as >it applies to messaging, so if a microkernel were somewhat quicker >there, it would probably cancel out the increase in context switches >for many users. Exactly - and with so many applications these days being structured as clients and servers (either local or network remote from each other), the speed with which you can do IPC (which implies context switching as part of the IPC), the faster the client/server transactions can occur. A microkernel works to simplify the kernel, with the goal being to then incur the complexity of making that simple kernel perform its operations as efficiently and quickly as possible. -- Dan Hildebrand (danh@qnx.com) QNX Software Systems, Ltd. http://www.qnx.com/~danh 175 Terence Matthews phone: +1 (613) 591-0931 Kanata, Ontario, Canada fax: +1 (613) 591-3579 K2M 1W8 #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!fido.news.demon.net!demon!sun4nl!icgned!news From: Hans Mulder Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information X-Nntp-Posting-Host: vuur Message-ID: Note: UNOX is a trademark of "Union Deutsche Lebensmittelwerke GmbH". Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: hardly any X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82 [trh1]) References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> <5e5hpc$isr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 13:38:25 GMT Lines: 17 nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote: >In article <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: >> Even better, Mac users can install a version of Rhapsody that will not >> include a path to Unix, >I.e., Terminal.app? >> so they never have to soil their hands with the >> greasy innards of the new OS. >Boy, would that be a mistake. Better to install it (possibly in some >out-of-the-way place that you'd never notice) and just not use it. Why not install it in the usual place and make it hidden? -- HansM #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!torn!kwon!watserv3.uwaterloo.ca!novice.uwaterloo.ca!ajkenned From: ajkenned@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Andrew Kennedy) Subject: NeXT Development problem Sender: news@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Mr. News) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 23:32:16 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: novice.uwaterloo.ca Organization: University of Waterloo Keywords: NeXT, menus, selector Lines: 29 Hello, I'm relatively new to the NeXT development scene and the answer to this is probably somewhere but I don't know where to start looking. Here's what I'm trying to do. I have an application with multiple bundles. They are linked to the main application and add items to the menu of the main application. I'm trying to add another menu item to the bundle submenu. I added the code in the appropriate files for the new menu item, and sure enough, if I build and install the bundle, the new menu item appears. I've given it a selector action. I have prototyped the method in the header file, added action to the method in the source file and have parsed the file in Interface Builder so that the new action appears correctly in the class file. However, when I select the menu option, it does nothing. Right now its supposed to pop up an alert box but it appears to not even find what I'm trying to do. I must have missed something, probably minor but obviously important. If anyone can shed some light onto this issue, could you reply to me in personal email. I can give you the new code if necessary. Thanks. -- | Andrew "Nad" Kennedy }:> | ajkenned@novice.uwaterloo.ca | | 4B Systems Design Engineering | ajkenned@zeus.uwaterloo.ca | | University of Waterloo | | #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!tsikes From: tsikes@netcom.com (Terry Sikes) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Message-ID: Organization: Netcom References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <330A4383.339A@acm.org> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 16:31:43 GMT Lines: 23 Sender: tsikes@netcom23.netcom.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200542 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4151 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62015 comp.sys.next.programmer:22881 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >Your typical Unix workstation is an entirely different class of machine >from a mainframe-- the former is often running a GUI for a user on >console, whereas the latter was designed to provide tremendous I/O >bandwidth and was intended less for interactive use and more for >transaction processing. > >But the age of "big iron" is mostly over, and even the mainframe's hold >on it's traditional strength of large scale server applications is >eroding in the face of fast, cheap workstations and distributed >computing systems. > >-Chuck Also check out Sun's new line of mainframe class machines. Extremely high I/O performance, up to 64 CPUs and Solaris - pointed directly at the big iron buyers. -- Terry Sikes | Software Developer tsikes@netcom.com | C++, Delphi, Java, Win32 (in alphabetical order ;) finger for PGP pub key | Objective objects objectify objectivity. My opinions - mine only! | http://members.aol.com/tsikes #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 09:19:38 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 15 Message-ID: <330B1A0A.52930AE1@screaming.org> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190402 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20908 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15205 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58144 comp.sys.next.programmer:22882 comp.sys.next.misc:25114 comp.unix.machten:4093 comp.unix.osf.misc:4135 comp.os.mach:4085 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53523 Robert Cassidy wrote: > jkheit@cnj.digex.net wrote: > > > of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. > ^ > > Sorry, it might be correct but that's just one ugly-assed word :-) You're right. I think the right word is monolithicitudeinousossity. -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!sun4nl!icgned!news From: tom@icgned.nl (Tom Hageman) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ganymedes Message-ID: Followup-To: : comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: IC Group X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82 [trh1]) References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021810351033363403@roxboro-161.interpath.net> [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!sun4nl!icgned!news From: tom@icgned.nl (Tom Hageman) Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! X-Nntp-Posting-Host: ganymedes Message-ID: Followup-To: : comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy Sender: news@icgned.nl Organization: IC Group X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82 [trh1]) References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:19:59 GMT Lines: 11 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22884 comp.sys.mac.system:200547 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62017 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4152 As interesting as this thread may be, it really does not belong in *.programmer anymore. Therefore I would like to ask the contestants to continue their exhortations in *.advocacy. Please? Note Followup... -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 19 Feb 1997 09:08:04 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5ef4nd$qut@qnx.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.217 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.machten, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.osf.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.mach, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190412 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20910 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15207 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58149 comp.sys.next.programmer:22885 comp.sys.next.misc:25116 comp.unix.machten:4094 comp.unix.osf.misc:4136 comp.os.mach:4086 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53532 > >Since the aliens in ID4 had DOS its wouldn't be a wonder if Apple >looked to the stars for their salvation. Nah. They had Windows. Bill Gates was the last survivor of the Roswell Crash, waiting for rescue and trying to sabatoge the Macintosh Way while he was at it (the ID4 aliens are an interstellar consortium of MIS folk, dedicated to making sure that the Macintosh Way never threatens their hegomony (that's why they attacked Earth)). The irony is that Bill Gates was on the verge of destroying the Mac, but since Windows is designed so that Windows machines can't talk to each other easily, he was unable to communicate that fact to the alien mothership. Since Macs are designed to network with Windows easier than Windows machines are, the PowerBook was able to interface with the mothership before Gates could, and the rest is history. Unfortunately, Apple was unable to sell any PowerBooks, even though one had saved the world, and Windows crushed the Mac, even without help from the aliens. --------------------------------------------------- Apple is a company, but Macintosh is a community. -S.M. King --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!unixis.demon.co.uk!it-connect.com!mail From: IT Connections Newsgroups: uk.jobs.offered,uk.jobs.contract,comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.sysadmin Subject: NeXT's Web Objects/Enterprise Objects Job - London based. Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 15:55:00 +0000 Organization: IT Connections Distribution: world Message-ID: <$DHk4GAUJyCzEwjn@it-connect.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: unixis.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: unixis.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 3.00 Lines: 20 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de uk.jobs.offered:25837 comp.soft-sys.nextstep:3006 comp.sys.next.programmer:22886 comp.sys.next.software:28155 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58156 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:25432 NeXT's Web Objects/Enterprise Objects Job - London based. Anyone out there like a job? This is an excellent opportunity to work for one of the coolest companies in the Universe. A developer is required to spearhead the commercialisation of their Web site. This will involve creation of both backend objects via data from an Oracle database and creation of front end dynamic pages using NeXT's Web Objects and Enterprise Objects and HTML. Contractors maybe considered for this role. Salary top pay Contact Andrew Akhurst for an informal discussion or mail CV to him. IT Connections Tel: 01525 840123 98-100 Dunstable Street Fax: 01525 840899 Ampthill Email: mail@it-connect.com Bedfordshire URL: http://www.it-connect.com MK45 2JP #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 97 09:36:10 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 116 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-8.access.one.net In-reply-to: peterm@dna.lth.se's message of 18 Feb 97 11:36:22 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22887 comp.sys.mac.system:200558 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62022 In article peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: >Why are the last accessed, modified, and inode updated times in >there? Quite simply for performance reasons. These things are >being modified _all_ of the time. Whether the kernel portion of >the filesystem is Well, they are *read* quite often, I agree with that. But I'd like to say two things: 1. The MacOS don't have a tenth as many files as Solaris for instance. Thus, this kind of file info isn't read/changed at all as often. The Mac OS, however, fiddles with resources *all* the time, and thus for a Mac it's more important to have a fast resource manager than a fast filesystem (byt I'd love to see a really fast FS). File count shouldn't make much difference - faster is faster, in general. [Well, in the past there were good arguments for 16-bit info, but we're far past that day.] Where it _might_ make a difference is in whether you're willing to put in the effort to make things fast. You're willing to put in more effort if the system is reading millions of files a day versus tens of files. Besides, the one constant in computers is that though you may not need that many _now_ you will next year :-). 2. As far as I know, nothing less than a block (usually 512 bytes) is ever read from the hard disk. I don't know, but I assume that the OS doesn't sequentially read in the file header until it finds the information it looks for, but rather it get's it "directly" via an index, right? So how much time does it takes to use another index? I also assume that the file info in the cache behaves equally. Thus more info in the file header will not take more CPU time (unless that info is often referred/changed), right? Reading a few more bytes from the hard disk is hardly relevant here. It's the latency that's important. If an inode has 96 bytes of information, you can fit 10 inodes in a 1k fragment. If an inode has 128 bytes, you can only fit 8, if it has 160 bytes, you can only fit 6. Everything is accessed in terms of fragments or blocks (8k by default on NeXTSTEP). Inodes are indexed by 32-bit integers, so you never "scan" for inodes, you always know where a given inode is. Obviously you always have to read a fragment to get an inode. Say you currently have 5 fragments worth of inodes in the cache, and you need to read some inode. With 10 inodes/fragment, you have 50 inodes which _might_ be the one you want. With 6 inodes/fragment, you only have 30. Keep in mind that the inode index for files in a directory will tend to be near one another, and the files in a directory will tend to cluster their accesses (after accessing a given file, the system is statistically more likely to access another file in that directory). In the end, the more inodes there are per fragment, the fewer disk reads you'll need to do. [Note: I'm not sure that inode blocks are read by fragment, or by block. Everything above pretty much holds in either case, though, the numbers are just bigger.] My only "demand" (if I may have one) is that it's rock solid and built in from scratch, i.e. not a hack. Hacks simply aren't good enough. Well, if there's one thing I can _guarantee_ will happen, it's that there will be one or more hacks involved. :-). >management utilities to propagate a new timestamp anyhow, just >having the timestamp there won't do squat.] Is it the applications that modify the other time stamps?? I thought it was the FS. Things like copy and archival utilities will have to maintain the creation timestamp, otherwise it's not worth much (you want the creation timestamp of the original, _not_ of the time the new copy was created). This is mostly a concern if it's stored out-of-band, though - "cp -Rp" will copy all files in a directory wrapper, and tar will work without modification. [These changes are by no means limited to just cp and tar, though :-).] >BSD FFS has also been used by several million users for more than a >decade. So that means we can never change it? Uh, the poster I was responding to made a point that HFS has been in use by millions of people for a decade. I was just pointing out that FFS has just as many numbers on its side. >BSD FFS was designed for multitasking timesharing server systems, >systems with substantially more disk, memory, and CPU than >personal computers of the day had, in a midsize heterogenous >network Oh, it's a good file system, but it can be improved, and this might be a good time. As I noted, I'm not averse to improving the filesystem - but I only consider things an "improvement" if they improve the operation of the filesystem. While an indirect goal should be improving the user's satisfaction with the system, the _direct_ goal should be to improve the filesystem's efficiency. In general, the user will get more done on a system with improved response time than on a system with improved throughput. In essence, that's what this thread is about - the creation timestamp is one more bit of info helpful to the user. I'm arguing that this bit is very seldom used, and though it might be useful periodically, it's not useful frequently enough to be worth hazarding throughput. If you make the things the user does hundreds of times a day fast, it's not too painful if you make the things they do once a week a bit slower. -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 19 Feb 97 09:43:31 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 50 Message-ID: References: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> <5ebqe6$hu6@concorde.ctp.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-8.access.one.net In-reply-to: "Georg Tuparev"'s message of 18 Feb 1997 08:49:10 GMT In article <5ebqe6$hu6@concorde.ctp.com>, "Georg Tuparev" writes: --- Flame on --- Why some people cannot (or do not want to) understand that backwards-compatibility == M$ All these "I cannot convert to OS", "Where is the List class" etc. questions indicate poor design and implementation, and if somebody writes lasagne code, even backwards compatibility will not help ... he will find another excuse for his handicap. I converted 40k lines program using the scripts for 2 days without any problem -- now the program runs even on NT and Solaris, and very soon with GNU OS ... and is very happy so. --- flame of --- Think what you're saying for a minute. I assert that you can be a talented object oriented designer/architecture/programmer _and_ think differently from NeXT's talented people. OpenStep is nice. That doesn't mean that anything which doesn't translate trivially to OpenStep is a "hack". In fact, I'd argue that anything which _does_ translate trivially to OpenStep was itself a more-or-less trivial application, or perhaps 90% comments. I think the real question is whether your program does indeed run as well as it did under NeXTSTEP. You've been running it through automated regression testing, have you? There are a variety of quite subtle points that differ between NeXTSTEP and OpenStep, where you can go to the documentation for either, and assuming you don't get "This section purposely left blank", you'll find that the results are ambiguous. Your code doesn't run because it doesn't run, not because you went out of your way to hack. And this all _assumes_ that you don't run across one of the multitude of bugs in OpenStep. While I won't assert that OpenStep/Mach and OpenStep/NT are "buggy", there certainly _are_ things at _clear_ odds with their documented behaviour which you end up having to workaround. [Given the low amount of apps ported from NeXTSTEP to OpenStep, perhaps Georg is arguing that pretty much _all_ of the NeXTSTEP community writes "lasanga" code?] -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 97 09:51:04 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-8.access.one.net In-reply-to: peterm@dna.lth.se's message of 19 Feb 97 08:43:53 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22889 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62023 comp.sys.mac.system:200559 In article peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) writes: >Scott Hess wrote: >As far as I recall, there _was_ a limit of about 6k files per volume. That must be a really old figure: I have a HFS-volume with more than 25,000 files on it and there's no problem at all. I think the limit is 32,767 files. Did I write that? Must have dropped a 4 somewhere, as I meant 64k (2^16). Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem2-01.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 21:58:18 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 17 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem2-01.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62024 comp.sys.mac.system:200563 comp.sys.next.programmer:22890 In article <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>, nurban@vt.edu wrote: >Well I'm sorry, but too bad. Apple is not going to redesign the entire >filesystem to make single users a little happier when it means >sacrificing multiuser capability and returning to 80's technology. You >can go on all you want about Apple's targeted market, but it's a step >backwards and Apple's not going to take it. I think a file system that stores meta-data in the filename (file extensions) is a huge step backwards. I don't want to sacrifice the useful features of HFS and destroy what the Mac is just to satisfy a bunch of people that probably still won't buy Macs. -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Rejected Microsoft ad slogans #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!visi.com!not-for-mail From: David Young Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: kaffe redeux Date: 19 Feb 1997 21:55:54 GMT Organization: ace dot net internet technologies Lines: 21 Message-ID: <5efsta$4sj$1@darla.visi.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: object.metaverse.com X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970123] Okay, after rattling on, I figured it was time to sit down and compile the damn thing. That was the easy part. Then I figured I'd get cool and fix the broken shared library support. I modified the Makefiles to build Mach-O relocatables instead of .a's, and poked around in the VM core to get rld_* to search the path defined in $KAFFE_LIBRARY_PATH (which I set to *Library/Kaffe) for code objects named foo.native. The resulting new version runs HelloWorldApp from the test suite, but the compiler (javac) throws an internal NullPointerException when I try to compile the other test programs. The source is available at ftp://ftp.ace.net/pub/dwy/kaffe-0.81mach.tar.gz. Anyone who wants to play around is welcome, but no guarantees. :) -- # david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp # vox: 212.629.6800 x170 phax: 212.629.6850 # net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:54:59 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 21 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190472 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20914 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15219 comp.sys.next.programmer:22892 comp.sys.next.misc:25118 comp.unix.machten:4095 comp.unix.osf.misc:4137 comp.os.mach:4088 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53553 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58175 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 18-Feb-97 Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a mic.. by Scott Hess@one.net > To further clarify, the current Mach kernel under development is _not_ > "under development" in the same sense as replacing it with some other > kernel would be "under development". In fact, insofar as that > comparison goes, the current Mach kernel is pretty much finished. Sure, although I do wish Apple/NeXT would support Mach's user-level paging objects so that individual processes like databases and garbage-collecting environments like LISP interpreters could have their own pagers. The NFS implementation could use an update, too. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 18 Feb 97 13:10:01 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 41 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5do9vl$mp2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> <5e03pp$thl@portal.gmu.edu> <5eaab5$66f@portal.gmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-16.access.one.net In-reply-to: tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu's message of 17 Feb 1997 19:08:21 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22893 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62027 comp.sys.mac.system:200581 In article <5eaab5$66f@portal.gmu.edu>, tfs@gravity.science.gmu.edu ( Tim) writes: The only issue you neglected was the tuneability of the filesystem. For instance on my swapdisk I have maxbpg set pretty high compared to the default set up with a min & max on the swapfile size, because it's purpose is to deal with that one big swapfile. I've been thinking it would be slick to write a swap partition creation program which gave you a partition with two inodes (/ and /swapfile - why do you need lost+found on such a disk, just recreate from scratch), and completely filled the filesystem. None of this "Meg per cylinder group" or "10% speed vs space" crap for me, nosiree :-). You could _probably_ simulate it pretty closely with standard utilities. You could try specifying an absurd inode count in the disktab, along with putting everything in on cylinder group. Set it to optimize for time, but with a low time-vs-space overhead. Then mkfile the swapfile. That might cause the swapfile to be written in a more-or-less optimal fashion. [I've also been thinking it would be cool to put /usr and other static directories on a fully-packed read-only partition. That would probably improve access times for those files (they'd all be closer together), and free up their 10% overhead on the read-write partition for other things. In effect, if you put 200M on the read-only partition, that would give you an extra 20M free on the read-write partition. Perhaps more if you adjusted the fragment size on the smaller read-only partition (so the 200M would take less overall space). On the other hand, it would be a nightmare to adjust the sizes and install new programs. You'd have to unpack and repack the entire partition. You'd also need the ability to adjust partitioning on the disk dynamically. Doable, perhaps, but annoying as hell.] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news-han1.dfn.de!news-ham1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Tom Hageman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: cc++ question Date: Tue, 18 Feb 97 00:56:01 +0100 Organization: Warty Wolfs Message-ID: <9702172355.AA01525@basil.icce.rug.nl> Reply-To: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-User: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-Path: obelix.icce.rug.nl!basil.icce.rug.nl!polly!next.mailer X-Authentication-Warning: obelix.icce.rug.nl: uubasil set sender to basil.icce.rug.nl!tom using -f Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.icce.rug.nl/pub/tom/Tom_Hageman@basil.icce.rug.nl.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) Lines: 27 In article , "Son of Ginger and Harry, Aaron Rosenzweig " wrote: > I'm trying to compile what should be a simple C++ program on NeXTStep 3.2 > > xombi.wizard.net> cc++ main.cc > main.cc:86: warning: return type for `main' changed to integer type > ld: Undefined symbols: > endl(ostream &) [snip] > Why is the linker having a problem? (If this isn't already in the FAQ it should be there...) cc++ main.cc -lg++ should do the trick. Hope this helps, -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!ctp.com!news From: "Georg Tuparev" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 19 Feb 1997 21:13:36 GMT Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc. Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5efqe0$st4@concorde.ctp.com> References: Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com NNTP-Posting-Host: haring.nl.ctp.com In article shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes: > [Given the low amount of apps ported from NeXTSTEP to OpenStep, > perhaps Georg is arguing that pretty much _all_ of the NeXTSTEP > community writes "lasanga" code?] No. Just ask yourself who is still writing OS Apps. There are not too many left. See as an example the MiscKit :-( ... ore to be even more concrete -- the port of the IXKit. As far as I can remember, there is not a single line ready. The only work I had time to do sofar is to is to write 1 (one) header file and three pages of a draft proposal -- this makes about 2 lines / week. If we work on IXKit with the same speed, it will be finished somewhere in year 2745 ... But better pipe this discussion to /dev/null or to c.s.n.advocacy (it's the same ;-) And about your "hack" comments - not everything that is not beautiful OO is bad, take the love as an example 8~) -- georg -- -- ------- /\/\ Georg Tuparev / /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners \ / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15 \/\/ 1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel: +31(20)575-0492 Fax: +31(20)575-0500 WWW: http://www.ctp.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 18 Feb 1997 14:13:41 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 11 Message-ID: <5ecv15$d1r@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <3309a1c9.11108823@news.rmplc.co.uk> <87u3nayt41.fsf@phaedrus.uchicago.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190508 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20917 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15222 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58187 comp.sys.next.programmer:22896 comp.sys.next.misc:25120 comp.unix.machten:4097 comp.unix.osf.misc:4138 comp.os.mach:4089 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53571 In article <87u3nayt41.fsf@phaedrus.uchicago.edu>, stephen farrell wrote: > i don't fully understand this point. developers can go out right now > and purchase openstep for mach on intel, sparc, and hppa platforms, > and for winNT, and solaris. why doesn't apple encourage them to do so, Well, for one, many Mac developers probably don't have large numbers of spare Sparc, HPPA, or even Intel machines lying around on which to do development. -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 97 13:01:43 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 37 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-16.access.one.net In-reply-to: exfjnzl@rbf.apfh.rqh's message of 18 Feb 1997 03:41:42 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22897 comp.sys.mac.system:200604 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62029 In article , exfjnzl@rbf.apfh.rqh (Ravi K. Swamy) writes: In article , Scott Hess wrote: [snip] >Don't think that there aren't things I'd like to change about FFS. >I'd like to see journalling, and the ability to defer metadata >update. I know FreeBSD file systems can be mounted to do asynchronous metadata updates. Linux's ext2 does asynch metadata updates by default. (*Please* do not argue which is better for stability etc. it's been beaten to death already) Perhaps it is only the FFS in 4.4 Lite than can do asynch metadata updates? Or perhaps the FreeBSD guys added this. You get no argument from here. 1) I'm the only user of the filesystems in question, and there's really nothing that I can't rebuild quickly enough as-is. Assuming that the async updates do flow out to disk relatively frequently (I'd assume during the 30-second sync), and that they flow out in an orderly fashion (the filesystem is always recoverable, perhaps without those last three operations). 2) I put _all_ of my machiens on UPS's, not just servers :-). In fact, I've been wondering if a Linux NFS server with fast/wide SCSI and striping on the other end of a crossover 100Mbit ethernet would be an improvement over a regular NeXTSTEP FFS with slow/narrow SCSI, for development work. [NeXTSTEP doesn't seem to want to do fast-10 on my NCR controllers. I'd guess it would do wide just fine. No striping, naturally.] Somehow I doubt it would be a net improvement, unless I could move my remote compiles over to the Linux box (would be a possibility, except that I don't think NeXT's ld and kin are GNUish). Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!zephyr.texoma.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 97 13:14:24 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 33 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <5ecefl$5d1@kwek.omroep.nl> <5ech29$9qj$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-16.access.one.net In-reply-to: marcel@sysyem.de's message of 18 Feb 1997 15:15:21 GMT In article <5ech29$9qj$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, marcel@sysyem.de writes: In article <5ecefl$5d1@kwek.omroep.nl>, pim@Intranet.eo.nl (Pim) writes: [other stuff deleted] > The filename is, as far as I know, just part of > a file's inode in most filesystems. This is not the case in UNIX. I-Nodes/Files are nameless. They are referenced by directory entries, which are named. So you can have multiple (hard) links with different names pointing to the same I-Node/File, as well as multiple (soft) links pointing to a certain path-name. Which brings about a good question or two. The directory entry only contains the name of the link, plus the inode for it. The inode contains the permissions, ownerships, and timestamps. Would a created timestamp refer to the contents of the file or the link? Would the type/creator refer to the contents of the file or the link? Actually, I think you could make arguments either way. [And I could make arguments against either way :-).] Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!ihnp4.ucsd.edu!sdcc12.ucsd.edu!ieng9.ucsd.edu!llay From: enigma Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: cc++ question Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 03:33:52 -0800 Organization: University of California, San Diego Lines: 32 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: ieng9.ucsd.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To: recurve@resourceful.com In-Reply-To: On Sat, 15 Feb 1997 recurve@resourceful.com wrote: > I'm trying to compile what should be a simple C++ program on NeXTStep 3.2 > > xombi.wizard.net> cc++ main.cc > main.cc:86: warning: return type for `main' changed to integer type > ld: Undefined symbols: > endl(ostream &) > _cerr > ostream::operator<<(const char *) > ostream::operator<<(ostream &(*)(ostream &)) > _cout > ostream::operator<<(int) > ostream::operator<<(char) > xombi.wizard.net> > > Why is the linker having a problem? I've had the same problem with you when I tried to compile a simple C++ program on NS 3.2. a couple of people suggested using the -lg++ option. However, I've also tried that (if I recall correctly)--somehow it results in the same errors... Perhaps you should try that on your system as well--just in case I made some stupid mistakes... I've since upgraded my system to 4.1, and somehow the errors just magically disappeared... Good luck. Lucas #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!peernews.ftech.net!telehouse1.frontier-networks.co.uk!Aladdin!aladdin.net!ns2.aladdin.net!RMplc!user From: btgsch@rmplc.co.uk (I. T. Manager) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 20:54:39 +0000 Organization: Bishop Thomas Grant Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: rm-dynf1-150.rmplc.co.uk Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62036 comp.sys.next.programmer:22900 comp.sys.mac.system:200613 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & >Unix: File S.. by Jerome Chan@apk.net >> > Sorry, but you're wrong. Macs do not integrate very well with with >> > heterogenous network fileservers, because their executables won't be >> > runnable when stored on an NFS fileserver (or a NT fileserver, or a >> > Novell fileserver, etc). >> >> That's not true. An NT Fileserver has AppleShare services. I can (and do >> store) my files on a winNT3.51 fileserver. I've also encountered Novell >> Fileservers which simply appear to the user as AppleShare Servers when I >> was at Case Western Reserve University. I can store these files on a >> Novell fileserver and run them without any problems. > >Questions: > >1) Can you run a Mac executable directly off of the remote fileservers >without moving locally? > >2) Does that functionality come with the base installation of the OS, or >do you have to pay for that additional functionality? I know that >commercial packages exist which will let you do reasonably complete >AppleShare capabilities from a lot of different systems, but that means >that things don't work out-of-the-box. Yes for both Netware 3.12 on, and NT server to both questions. > -- 'ric #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!cbgw2.lucent.com!news.bu.edu!acs6.bu.edu!macintsh From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: 20 Feb 1997 04:13:54 GMT Organization: Boston University Lines: 27 Message-ID: <5egj22$sfr@news.bu.edu> References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> <5eacjo$f6o@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: acs6.bu.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22901 comp.sys.mac.system:200617 Mark Bessey (MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM) wrote: : John Siracusa writes : > From MacWeek: : > : > Sources in the boiler room report that Rhapsody will weigh in at about : > 110 Mbytes of pure chewing satisfaction and come with three levels of : > Install: EZ, Minimal and Custom. : Wow. I wonder how the folks at MacWeek know how much disk space Rhapsody : is going to use, when it hasn't even been built yet? Notice the word "about." MacWeek is usually pretty good with their "guesses" I'd expect it to be a bit bigger with the Unix tree installed. And then there's swap space, of course. Interestingly, an Apple employee wrote a letter to Wired magazine (appears in the new issue) on an unrelated topic and mentioned that he was writing the letter as bits of code were sent from his Mac in Tokyo to Cupertino. His parenthetical comment was "Mac OS 8 alive and well, thank you very much." Makes you wonder 1. if the letter written back before Copland was canceled, and 2. what the heck Apple programmers are doing in Toyko... -----------------+---------------------------------------- John Siracusa | If you only have a hammer, you tend to macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!psinntp!bbnews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:20:29 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 144 Message-ID: <330B98CD.1135@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <3303B296.6C6@acm.org> <3307DFEA.2FB0@acm.org> <330A4383.339A@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200631 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4158 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62043 comp.sys.next.programmer:22902 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > > For example, any read to a file is essentially a concurrency problem... > > your process will probably suspend until the required data is read > > from disk. > > That depends entirely upon how the process wants to read the file. The > process can decide to perform non-blocking I/O file with the O_NDELAY or > O_NONBLOCK flags to open(), or via select() on a set of open file > descriptors. Correct. There are many different ways to handle IO. Blocking vs non-blocking is one of them. But this doesn't have much to do with this thread. You haven't told me anything I don't know or haven't used many times in the last 20 years. > > Many calls to an OS can be seen this way, as you > > might have to suspend until the requested resource becomes > > available. The general principle here is that the OS should do > > its utmost to satisfy the request, as should any call to any routine. > > The general principle is that the OS should attempt to maximize > throughput by minimizing the number of resources held simultaneously by > any process. The reason why processes may block waiting on a resource > to become available is to allow the CPU (which itself is a crucial > system resource) to be used by other processes until the current process > can make progress. > > You want to avoid deadlock as best you can, and doing so involves trying > to make critical sections as small as possible, as well as trying to > avoid resource contention as far as the properties of resources allow. > You again haven't told me anything I don't know, but you have not addressed the point either. You are retreating into general principles, without much to say. What I am suggesting actually follows from those principles, and enforces those principles, exactly things like keeping critical sections as small as possible. Your general tone of writing suggests you think I don't know anything about these things. If you can show where what I have suggested breaks the principles, then I can revise or throw away. But there is no revision or throwing away that can be done in the face of abuse. > [ ... ] > > Perhaps I did not explain this very well in the first place, but I > > hope that makes it clearer to Charles. I am also not saying this > > to defend MacOS or criticise NeXT. However, some of the weaknesses > > of Unix should be understood, and the fact that Unix is not > > in many respects the perfect OS. > > I've never said Unix was the perfect OS-- but I haven't found a better > alternative so far, either. Good, but my exact point is that there is still much progress to be made in the OS area. And certainly if you talk to real users of computers, they find other non-Unix solutions better alternatives. Unix hasn't conquered the world exactly because its proponents have thought it was intrinsically good and other systems intrinsically bad. And this attitude meant that they never really addressed what was really wanted in a computer system. Mind you Apple has to some extent suffered from the same mentality, even though Mac was for many years superior (and still in some ways is), they did not really get out there and talk to corporate customers. Gates did! > > Neither does it handle memory sharing and resource synchronisation at a > > very high level, > > Not at the operating system level, no. > > That's why people write software layers on top of the OS, such as > OPENSTEP, which provide higher level abstractions which use the more > primitive functionality provided by the OS. And that's where those > high-level abstractions belong-- not in the kernel.... Right, but as far as an application is concerned that is the OS. > > and why it has not swept aside all those "horrible mainframe" OSs is > > due to the fact that it does not have very good server capabilities > > such as TP monitors, apart from Tuxedo. > > Your typical Unix workstation is an entirely different class of machine > from a mainframe-- the former is often running a GUI for a user on > console, whereas the latter was designed to provide tremendous I/O > bandwidth and was intended less for interactive use and more for > transaction processing. That is a dangerous place for Unix to be. And I hope Apple realises it. As I said they can use the good parts like the Mach Kernel to solve their problems (although for public domain software like Mach, they needn't pay $400M.) The problem facing Unix is it is being squeezed from both sides. Systems like NT are coming up from the bottom (although I think NT is too overblown for most PC uses). And it is being squeezed from the top, because the previous mainframe (for want of a better word) systems provide this functionality much better than Unix. On the other hand, functionality that has only been on high end machines is now rightfully being found on low end machines. And that is the very essence of what I am suggesting in saying that OSs must take more responsibility for handling resource problems. It is this kind of lesson that we can learn from the study of all kinds of OSs. > But the age of "big iron" is mostly over, and even the mainframe's hold > on it's traditional strength of large scale server applications is > eroding in the face of fast, cheap workstations and distributed > computing systems. Well, this sounds like you have been reading too many newspapers and magazines. The server market is currently exploding, and there are more companies that want to run large networks. What is over is the days of expensive, overpriced computing. In a distributed environment what do you think is providing the most powerful nodes? So as such systems can now be built for quite cheap, Unix faces another threat. Companies don't choose computer systems because of a nice warm feeling, or they have a religious sense that it must be Unix because that is good for people. They buy on a price/functionality equation. Saying "big iron" is mostly over is now a statement that has outlived itself by about ten years. The "big iron" that is being sold today is different from ten years ago. It still has room to improve, but it certainly is not static. Even the largest A Series CPUs are now single chip machines (And the smallest A Series have been single chip for years, but now they are zero chip! (And that doesn't mean they are not selling.)) But then from Charles' arguments he is one of those people that believes that Unix is good, and those dirty old mainframes are "proprietary," "legacy," "communistic," and all those other labels that are generally stuck on them in order to prove some misguided point before we actually think. Computers and OSs are just technical artefacts. We should judge them technically, not with the vigour of over-emotional, fundamentalist beliefs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 22:26:08 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <0n2wFEC00iWn0CXEk0@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> <330A2E07.563D@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200642 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62047 comp.sys.next.programmer:22903 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Mike Connally@dial.pipex > > Okay, thanks for the correction. Even so, the point still applies to > > just NFS servers, which is more relevent for me.... > > No it doesn't. With NFS client software, Macs can use any > file (data or executable) resident on any NFS server. But that NFS client software doesn't come with MacOS, now does it? It's a seperate commercial product.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!news2.acs.oakland.edu!newsfeed.concentric.net!news-master!mxcs From: mxcs@cris.com (Mark Carmichael) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten Subject: Aliens among our Computers (was <...> IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 10:16:40 -0800 Organization: Seventh Church of Rodney Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5ef4nd$qut@qnx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: cnc50261.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190588 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20920 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15235 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58216 comp.sys.next.programmer:22904 comp.sys.next.misc:25126 comp.unix.machten:4099 In article , "Lawson English" wrote: > >Since the aliens in ID4 had DOS its wouldn't be a wonder if Apple >looked to the stars for their salvation. Nah. They had Windows. Bill Gates was the last survivor of the Roswell Crash, waiting for rescue and trying to sabatoge the Macintosh Way while he [....] Nefariously seeding technical newsgroups with psycho-viral crosspostings *that we cannont resist responding to* is also part of their evil plan. All of this Borg stuff reminds me of my personal vision of the climatic ending of "Terminator IX", wherein the latest Machine representative is tricked into entering DOS compatibility mode using logic (by an aged William Shatner, in a cameo appearance). -- Mark Carmichael "My phone bill, my opinions." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!news.pbi.net!news5.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl.crl.com!not-for-mail From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 1997 10:21:36 -0800 Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5efgbg$69d@crl.crl.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62057 comp.sys.mac.system:200696 comp.sys.next.programmer:22905 In article , Joel Klecker wrote: >In article , Charles William Swiger > wrote: > >>However, I can't NFS mount a remote fileserver on a Mac and be able to >>run Mac executables, because they require the out-of-band information >>stored in their resource forks which is not representable within the >>standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms. > >Doesn't the lame wrapper approach cause "problems" equal to >that(AppleDouble certainly causes only as many problems as "wrappers")? No. Wrappers are just directories that are handled a special way on the client side by the workspace. -- Don McGregor | "Let us hope that it is not true; but if it is, let mcgredo@crl.com | us pray that it does not become widely known." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!news.Stanford.EDU!usenet From: stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NS4.1: scrollers disappear when window deminiaturized Date: 20 Feb 1997 12:14:00 GMT Organization: Stanford University Lines: 16 Message-ID: <5ehf68$c90@nntp.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: nightowl.stanford.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Hi, when I miniaturize a window which has a NSScrollView as its content view, the scroll view is not displayed when I deminiaturize the window. The contents of the ScrollView display just fine, but there are no scroll bars nor arrows. Also, the window frame (with resizing bar at the bottom) doesn't show. Anyone had the same problem? Any solutions? Thanks, - Stan --- Nature photography: http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~stanj NeXTmail and MIME: stanj@cs.stanford.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!jupiter.dnai.com!dnai-207-33-180-197.dialup.dnai.com!user From: jeffh@dnai.com (Jeff Hoekman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: need animation/DPSTimedEntry help Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:23:57 -0800 Organization: DNAI ( Direct Network Access ) Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: dnai-207-33-180-197.dialup.dnai.com I'm getting a flicker in my animation, and I think it's because I'm calling the following three lines to erase/clear my background before drawing: PSsetgray(NX_WHITE); NXRectFill(&r); PSsetgray(NX_BLACK); Is there a better way to 'clear' my drawing surface? After 'clearing' my background, I'm calling this pswrap repeatedly in a loop: defineps lineshow(float x1; float y1; float x2; float y2; float graylevel) graylevel setgray x1 y1 moveto x2 y2 lineto stroke flushgraphics endps This is all for a single frame in the animation. I'm also calling NXPing() after this, but don't know if the call to flushgraphics is necessary. If anyone has or can point me to some programming examples which do this kind of stuff I'd really appreciate them, as well as any help and suggestions about the problems mentioned above. Thank you, Jeff P.S. Please reply via email --thanks alot. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!jupiter.dnai.com!dnai-207-33-180-197.dialup.dnai.com!user From: jeffh@dnai.com (Jeff Hoekman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: need animation/DPSTimedEntry help Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:25:49 -0800 Organization: DNAI ( Direct Network Access ) Lines: 32 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: dnai-207-33-180-197.dialup.dnai.com I'm getting a flicker in my animation, and I think it's because I'm calling the following three lines to erase/clear my background before drawing: PSsetgray(NX_WHITE); NXRectFill(&r); PSsetgray(NX_BLACK); Is there a better way to 'clear' my drawing surface? After 'clearing' my background, I'm calling this pswrap repeatedly in a loop: defineps lineshow(float x1; float y1; float x2; float y2; float graylevel) graylevel setgray x1 y1 moveto x2 y2 lineto stroke flushgraphics endps This is all for a single frame in the animation. I'm also calling NXPing() after this, but don't know if the call to flushgraphics is necessary. If anyone has or can point me to some programming examples which do this kind of stuff I'd really appreciate them, as well as any help and suggestions about the problems mentioned above. Thank you, Jeff P.S. Please reply via email --thanks alot. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 1997 13:18:18 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5efg5a$p2e@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22909 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62060 comp.sys.mac.system:200711 In article , peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) wrote: > And another one: what happends if you move or rename an application in NeXTOS? > Can I still double-click my document and have the correct application launch? Yes, unless you move the application outside one of the folders that the Workspace searches at login time. If you do that, the Workspace will be unable to find the application in order to query it about what document types it can open. (Though the application itself will still run.) Of course, making links to the application instead of physically moving it will still allow it to work. > On my Mac I can rename and move an application and the > desktop database finds it immediately when I open a document. Even the aliases > (soft links) survive. Rhapsody better keep this behaviour or a lot of Mac > users will be angry and encounter problems. I dunno. Rhapsody is just a different paradigm. With its filesystem structure based on directories instead of hard drives, I don't really see much reason why you should ever want or need to move an application outside of its original folder (unless it's into a subfolder you made for organizational purposes, in which case the Workspace will still find it). -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!208.195.156.10!news.walltech.com!HSNX.wco.com!news.wco.com!not-for-mail From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 1997 11:45:15 -0800 Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16 Lines: 21 Sender: mpaque@mpaque Distribution: world Message-ID: <5efl8b$tv@mpaque.mpaque> References: <5e0ev6$qje@news.bu.edu> Reply-To: mpaque@wco.com NNTP-Posting-Host: volans142.wco.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22910 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62062 comp.sys.mac.system:200718 In article <5e0ev6$qje@news.bu.edu> macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) writes: > The only remaining reservation I have is > about the whole process of installing apps and then moving them after > they're installed. Is there any possibility of paths getting messed > up? Not really. First, the OPENSTEP API provides mechanisms for applications to ask for application (or bundle, or framework) resources by name and/or type, and takes care of fishing about in the app wrapper to find the right bits, including looking at language preferences the user has selected and what languages are supported by the app. Second, when the user sees an app through the GUI, it's just an icon that can be dragged about. The relationships of the files within the wrapper are unaffected. -- I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me. mpaque@next.com Official business only NeXT Mail OK mpaque@wco.com Non-business or personal mail NeXT mail OK #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 1997 13:23:12 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 13 Message-ID: <5efgeg$p9s@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eepmi$r6e@horus.ecmwf.int> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22911 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62063 comp.sys.mac.system:200721 In article <5eepmi$r6e@horus.ecmwf.int>, syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) wrote: > There's a tendency in the NeXT community not to grok the utility > of MacOS features like file type & creator codes, Macintosh Easy > Open, and full drag-and-drop capability. There's a tendency in the Mac community to be unaware that NEXTSTEP _has_ features like drag-and-drop of documents onto apps, and that furthermore, many of the NEXTSTEP community are aware of the Mac features yet do not prefer them. (I, for example, am aware of the Mac open-by-creator process, yet do not prefer to use it.) -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.82.160.249!solaris.cc.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!csugrad.cs.vt.edu!not-for-mail From: nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: 19 Feb 1997 13:25:54 -0500 Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5efgji$pbg@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> <5e5hpc$isr@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: csugrad.cs.vt.edu In article , Hans Mulder wrote: > nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote: > >In article <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu>, macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: > > [mention of the possibility that Rhapsody installs might make > > Terminal.app optional] > >Boy, would that be a mistake. Better to install it (possibly in some > >out-of-the-way place that you'd never notice) and just not use it. > Why not install it in the usual place and make it hidden? Sure, that could work. In an emergency, the support guy could say, "Okay, go into Preferences, select `Unhide Unix', run this application and type in these commands. Your system will work again." -- Nathan Urban | nurban@vt.edu | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} | Virginia Tech #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:33:09 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 84 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <330B98CD.1135@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200740 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4165 comp.sys.next.programmer:22913 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62068 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 20-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >>> For example, any read to a file is essentially a concurrency problem... >>> your process will probably suspend until the required data is read >>> from disk. >> >> That depends entirely upon how the process wants to read the file. The >> process can decide to perform non-blocking I/O file with the O_NDELAY or >> O_NONBLOCK flags to open(), or via select() on a set of open file >> descriptors. > > Correct. There are many different ways to handle IO. Blocking vs > non-blocking is one of them. If you understand the difference, why did you claim that "your process would probably suspend..." when a process using non-blocking I/O will not suspend? Contradiction detected. [ ... ] >>> Many calls to an OS can be seen this way, as you >>> might have to suspend until the requested resource becomes >>> available. The general principle here is that the OS should do >>> its utmost to satisfy the request, as should any call to any routine. >> >> The general principle is that the OS should attempt to maximize >> throughput by minimizing the number of resources held simultaneously by >> any process. The reason why processes may block waiting on a resource >> to become available is to allow the CPU (which itself is a crucial >> system resource) to be used by other processes until the current process >> can make progress. >> >> You want to avoid deadlock as best you can, and doing so involves trying >> to make critical sections as small as possible, as well as trying to >> avoid resource contention as far as the properties of resources allow. > > You again haven't told me anything I don't know, but you have not > addressed the point either. You are retreating into general principles, > without much to say. You were the one to first bring up the phrase "general principle", Ian. Go read your words quoted above by ">>>". [ ... ] >> I've never said Unix was the perfect OS-- but I haven't found a better > > alternative so far, either. > > Good, but my exact point is that there is still much progress to be made > in the OS area. And certainly if you talk to real users of computers, > they find other non-Unix solutions better alternatives. According to what you've said, if I find Unix a better solution for some task, then I can't be a "real user of computers"? What nonsense.... [ ... ] >>> Neither does it handle memory sharing and resource synchronisation at a >>> very high level, >> >> Not at the operating system level, no. >> >> That's why people write software layers on top of the OS, such as >> OPENSTEP, which provide higher level abstractions which use the more >> primitive functionality provided by the OS. And that's where those >> high-level abstractions belong-- not in the kernel.... > > Right, but as far as an application is concerned that is the OS. You have one of the most bizzare viewpoints I've ever seen. OPENSTEP is not an operating system; it's an software layer that provides an abstraction _away_ from the specific OS that the application runs on, so that the app can do useful things without having to be written using non-portable, operating-system-specific functionality. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem1-01.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 06:44:28 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> <5efgbg$69d@crl.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem1-01.teleport.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62069 comp.sys.mac.system:200741 comp.sys.next.programmer:22914 In article <5efgbg$69d@crl.crl.com>, mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor) wrote: >>>stored in their resource forks which is not representable within the >>>standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms. >> >>Doesn't the lame wrapper approach cause "problems" equal to >>that(AppleDouble certainly causes only as many problems as "wrappers")? > >No. Wrappers are just directories that are handled a special way >on the client side by the workspace. AppleDouble is two files (which is also "...representable within the standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms"), how is that different? -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Rejected Microsoft ad slogans #################################################################### Message-ID: <330C6508.2A27@iphysiol.unil.ch.spam> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 15:51:52 +0100 From: Sean Hill Reply-To: Sean.Hill@iphysiol.unil.ch Organization: Knowledge Management Unit/ INFORGE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Instance drawing on OpenStep Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: pcbfsh1-138-2e.unil.ch Lines: 17 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!surfnet.nl!swidir.switch.ch!cisun2000.unil.ch!pcbfsh1-138-2e.unil.ch I've been trying to do some instance drawing on OpenStep for windows. I remember having code to do this years and years ago, but can't find it now. I would like to draw a box with dashed lines where the mouse moves during a mouse down. However, when I try it the line is always a single solid line and the inside of the box is always opaque. I've setalpha(0) and I'm only drawing the lines themselves but still it is solid white inside. I tried adding some code to do a PSnewinstance as a NSPeriodic event and that works better but still looks crappy. Is instance drawing actually useful for anything? Should I use compositing instead? Thanks for any sample code and ideas. Sean shill@iphysiol.unil.ch #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed5.bbnplanet.com!ssb.com!mattera From: mattera@ssga.ssb.com (Luigi Mattera) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 20 Feb 1997 14:51:18 GMT Organization: State Street Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5ehod6$5rj@svna0001.clipper.ssb.com> References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> <5eacjo$f6o@news.next.com> <5egj22$sfr@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: translated.clipper.ssb.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22916 comp.sys.mac.system:200748 John Siracusa (macintsh@bu.edu) wrote: : Notice the word "about." MacWeek is usually pretty good with : their "guesses" I'd expect it to be a bit bigger with the Unix : tree installed. And then there's swap space, of course. Bigger? Wouldn't they be smart and just move stuff around? Or are they actually going to have separate Mac and Unix applications? : Interestingly, an Apple employee wrote a letter to Wired magazine : (appears in the new issue) on an unrelated topic and mentioned : that he was writing the letter as bits of code were sent from his : Mac in Tokyo to Cupertino. His parenthetical comment was "Mac OS : 8 alive and well, thank you very much." : Makes you wonder 1. if the letter written back before Copland was : canceled, and 2. what the heck Apple programmers are doing in Toyko... Tokyo? They could be writing the Japanese localization for the Mac OS. (it does exist, you know) Besides which, with a direct T1 line it doesn't matter where on the planet you are located these days. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!news From: "Jonathan W. Hendry" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 18:03:01 -0500 Organization: By Displacement in Metric Tonnes. Lines: 14 Message-ID: <330A3525.1077@subsequent.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> Reply-To: jon@subsequent.com NNTP-Posting-Host: aahz.access.one.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22917 comp.sys.mac.system:200755 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62070 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4166 Avi Rappoport wrote: > > It sounds like a useful solution would be for Apple to implement an Error > Manager that could be called from applications. That addresses the issue > of the application writers not wanting to reinvent the (error) wheel and > get the interface and functionality to be consistent. And if designed > correctly, the manager could take advantage of OS improvements in the > future and applications would automatically get those improvements. An exception-handling class library would be better, but the result would be the same. -- jon@steeldriving.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:11:31 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 90 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> <8n2mO2O00iWl05_J00@andrew.cmu.edu> <330B8D60.74C1@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <330B8D60.74C1@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62071 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4167 comp.sys.next.programmer:22918 comp.sys.mac.system:200758 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 20-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >>>> Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell >>>> it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of >>>> robust! You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial >>>> system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper >>>> encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS >>>> of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled >>>> within the process. >>> >>> You are not only not reading correctly what I am saying, but in your >>> misreadings are quite wrong. >> >> How am I misreading what you've said? > > Most of your responses show little understanding of what I have said, > before you go into ultra defensive mode of Unix. You didn't answer the question; you simply rephrased what you previously said as quoted by ">>>". If you aren't going to provide a specific example of how I've misread your comments, fine-- go right ahead and continue dodging the question. >> What is wrong with my statements? > > Your statements about both robustness and deadlock are wrong. Robustness > is if an application calls a service, it expects the service to perform > that function. If the service does not take responsibility to handle common > error conditions, but just return an exception to the caller, that is > the opposite of robust. If the service needs some operator input to help > solve the situation then ask for it, don't just return an error to the > application, because due to security it may not be able to access the > system resources in the same way as the OS or operator. If the OS itself blocks the process which asked for some service and waits for the user to tell it what to do when an error occurs, then neither the process being blocked nor any other process which depend on that blocked process to make progress will be able to do anything. If any of these blocked processes is supposed to perform the action of asking for user intervention and returning the user's response, the system will be deadlocked. > Your comments about deadlock also show lack of understanding. If a > system resource becomes unavailable to all processes, then everything is > going to lock up. That's correct. How do you get from this statement to my supposed "lack of understanding"? > You are defending the position that all these processes > should be returned an error, when they have no control over the > resource. Correct. Processes do not have "control" over system resources; what is what the operating system is for. The OS manages system resources by implementing serialization mechanisms for non-preemptible resources like tty's, printers, the network, disk I/O to individual files, and so forth, and by implementing means of preempting resources like the CPU which can be preempted (otherwise known as preemptive multitasking). > This is also the opposite of robust. The case of deadlock may require > some human intervention to prevent reoccurrence anyway, but what we > are talking about here is not even a case of deadlock. Having the OS attempt to ask a user what to do when errors occur most certainly can lead to deadlock. I can demonstrate examples of interdependent processes on real-world operating systems which would satisfy the four necessary conditions for deadlock. For example, let's consider NEXTSTEP's WindowServer. Say the WindowServer tries to blit a bunch of bits via a DMA transfer handled by a video driver within the kernel, and the DMA transfer encounters an error. If the OS blocks the WindowServer due to the error and then tries to tell the user an error occured and ask what to do about it by having the WindowServer attempt to pop up an alert panel, the system is going to deadlock because the WindowServer is already blocked trying to draw and will never get unblocked in order to draw that alert panel. Therefore, the system is deadlocked. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem1-01.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 07:50:41 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 12 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> <330A2E07.563D@ix.netcom.com> <0n2wFEC00iWn0CXEk0@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem1-01.teleport.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3d2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200761 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62073 comp.sys.next.programmer:22919 In article <0n2wFEC00iWn0CXEk0@andrew.cmu.edu>, Charles William Swiger wrote: >But that NFS client software doesn't come with MacOS, now does it? >It's a seperate commercial product.... Very few Mac users need an NFS client. -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Rejected Microsoft ad slogans #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!206.71.77.3!nebo.vii.com!vyzynz!inquo!in-news.erinet.com!bug.rahul.net!rahul.net!a2i!nmia!news From: "Nicolas Droux" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs Subject: Re: OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 -- printf %g still broken Date: 20 Feb 1997 15:21:47 GMT Organization: New Mexico Internet Access Lines: 44 Message-ID: <01bc1f41$4bafa9b0$c6a63bc6@hyperion> References: <5ecoph$74i@tribune.usask.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: droux.nmia.com X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22920 comp.sys.next.bugs:4207 eric@skatter.USask.Ca wrote in article <5ecoph$74i@tribune.usask.ca>... > eric@pisces 225> cc -o printfcheck printfcheck.c > eric@pisces 226> ./printfcheck > Expect 0.00123: 0.001 > Expect 123: 123.457 > Expect 123.5: 123.4567 > Expect 1e+03: 999.6 > eric@pisces 227> > > ================================================================== > > Yes! It's still not fixed! Seven years and three months since I first reported > it (way back in the NextStep 1.0 days). I even have the NeXT bug tracking > reference numbers [60697, 98369] and an e-mail message from NeXT (September 1994) > indicating that, ``it looks like it will finally be fixed in NEXTSTEP release > 4.0.'' > > I wonder if this has any chance of being fixed before OpenStep mutates into > Rhapsody? Just checked under OPENSTEP NT 4.1, and here's what I got... hyperion[24] openstep/printftest > gcc -o PrintfTest PrintfTest.c hyperion[25] openstep/printftest > PrintfTest.exe Expect 0.00123: 0.00123 Expect 123: 123 Expect 123.5: 123.5 Expect 1e+03: 1e+003 hyperion[26] openstep/printftest > -- Nicolas Droux http://www.cs.unm.edu/~droux #################################################################### From: "Jeff A. Harrell" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 18:17:12 -0600 Organization: Digital Media Performance Labs Lines: 43 Message-ID: <330B9808.ABD@dmpl.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <330A4383.339A@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: solstice.dmpl.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0SC-SGI (X11; I; IRIX 6.2 IP20) To: Terry Sikes Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!netcom.net.uk!news.cybernet.dk!news.onramp.net!usenet Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200765 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4169 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62077 comp.sys.next.programmer:22921 Terry Sikes wrote: > In article , > Charles William Swiger wrote: > >Your typical Unix workstation is an entirely different class of machine > >from a mainframe-- the former is often running a GUI for a user on > >console, whereas the latter was designed to provide tremendous I/O > >bandwidth and was intended less for interactive use and more for > >transaction processing. > > > >But the age of "big iron" is mostly over, and even the mainframe's hold > >on it's traditional strength of large scale server applications is > >eroding in the face of fast, cheap workstations and distributed > >computing systems. > > > >-Chuck > > Also check out Sun's new line of mainframe class machines. Extremely > high I/O performance, up to 64 CPUs and Solaris - pointed directly at > the big iron buyers. Just to play the devil's advocate, Sun's UE10K is a direct competitor to Silicon Graphic's Origin 2000 / Cray Origin 2000 series. (To the extent that both systems are based, to one degree or another, on Cray's crossbar architecture.) The SGI Origin product line uses the same OS, GUI or command-line, as the rest of the SGI family. IRIX 6.4 runs on the two- to four-processor Origin 200, the four- to 128-processor Origin 2000, the Onyx2 visualization supercomputer, and the Octane desktop workstation. (A slightly different version runs on O2.) Rumor is that by summer there will be an all-platform release of IRIX 6.4 that runs on everything from Indy to Cray Origin 2000. So, from a user's perspective, there's really very little difference between desktop and supercomputer. -- Jeff Harrell, Systems Engineer Digital Media Performance Labs, Inc. http://www.dmpl.com http://jeff.dmpl.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!rtd.com!opus1.com!opus1.com!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: need animation/DPSTimedEntry help Message-ID: <330C9349.2F54@running-start.com> From: Ralph Zazula Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:09:13 -0800 Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com References: Organization: Running Start, Inc. Nntp-Posting-Host: sierra.running-start.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Hoekman Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 60 Hi - You might want to try disabling screen updating while you do your drawing. This may be the cause of the flicker. Here's what I typically do (in my View drawing code): /* disable screen updating */ [[self window] disableFlushWindow]; /* do a bunch of drawing to the backing store */ /* update the on-screen window with my new drawing [[[self window] reenableFlushWindow] flushWindow]; See the Window docs for more info. Ralph -- Ralph Zazula Running Start, Inc. zazula@running-start.com 520/760-4890 (4891 FAX) http://www.running-start.com Jeff Hoekman wrote: > > I'm getting a flicker in my animation, and I think it's because I'm > calling the following three lines to erase/clear my background before > drawing: > > PSsetgray(NX_WHITE); > NXRectFill(&r); > PSsetgray(NX_BLACK); > > Is there a better way to 'clear' my drawing surface? > > After 'clearing' my background, I'm calling this pswrap repeatedly in a loop: > > defineps lineshow(float x1; float y1; float x2; float y2; float graylevel) > graylevel setgray > x1 y1 moveto > x2 y2 lineto > stroke > flushgraphics > endps > > This is all for a single frame in the animation. I'm also calling > NXPing() after this, but don't know if the call to flushgraphics is > necessary. > > If anyone has or can point me to some programming examples which do this > kind of stuff I'd really appreciate them, as well as any help and > suggestions about the problems mentioned above. > > Thank you, > Jeff > > P.S. Please reply via email --thanks alot. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!insync!uunet!in2.uu.net!206.246.124.37!nntp.newsfirst.com!nntp.crosslink.net!news.magicnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-atl-21.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:09:23 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 78 Message-ID: <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-169.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22923 comp.sys.mac.system:200776 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62080 Charles William Swiger wrote: ] Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & ] Unix: File S.. by John Moreno@interpath.co ] > ] Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the ] > ] timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file ] > ] when you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified ] > ] version. Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care ] > ] about that timestamp? ] > ] > A very simple and quit answer is when you have two files with ] > basically the same information and have modified both since their ] > creation and want to know which file is newer. ] ] The answer is whichever file was modified last, and can be answered ] using the last-modified timestamp; the creation timestamp isn't ] needed. ] ] Again, that doesn't answer my question. My point was there but I apparently didn't make it clear enough: You are doing some ad hoc data acquisition and analysis - you do your first test and save it, then you do your second test and save it. You play with both of them a bit and then go home, where you come down with pneumonia and are out of the office for two weeks. When you come back to the office you can remember which test you did first but not what you named the file. That one's a bit of a stretch tho, so how about this - you have a program that automatically saves (thereby changing the modification date) whenever the file is even viewed. ] [ ... ] ] >] Such a system could rely on just the file extension if the Mac-like ] >] creator/filetype attributes are not available or are not recognized ] >] [consider a file that has been FTP'ed or is being accessed via a ] >] remote filesystem like NFS, AFS, etc], but could also pay attention ] >] to the Mac attributes if they are available and valid. That seems ] >] to combine the desirable features without changing the way either ] >] current Mac users or current NEXTSTEP users like to have things ] >] work.... ] > ] > I've seen this "accessed via a remote filesystem" argument used ] > before and have never really understood it. If the computer at the ] > other end is a Rhapsody machine then I'd expect the additional ] > information to be passed along, if it isn't a R.M. then what kind of ] > file is being accessed where the person getting it doesn't know what ] > it is? ] ] You're missing the point. When I access a file via a remote ] filesystem, I shouldn't need to care whether it's a R.M or not. I ] should be able to use any type of fileserver without having problems, ] and I should be able to run executables directly off of the ] fileserver. ] ] Come to think of it, perhaps Apple will provide this functionality by ] making Rhapsody's system loader understand the AppleDouble format ] directly as an executable format. It's rather similar to the way ] NEXTSTEP handles the Mach-O and MAB (FAT binary) executable ] formats.... I'd think you'd want to use the AppleSingle format, but other that, yeah. What's really important isn't the format of the file, but that the part of the system that transfers files over the network knows about it, and that all of the information is there. About a week ago Jonathan Hendry posted saying that "it would be difficult (if not impossible) to run a Macintosh application that is stored on a non-HFS disk". This sounds plausible but, as I said in my reply to him, since all of the information associated with a file is transfered to a PC disk when you copy a file back and forth it seems to me that if that was the case it would be a failure of the system since it should be possible. I immediately tested this by inserting a DOS formatted disk into my drive and copying a small application to it and then trying to execute it. It worked flawlessly. There is no reason that the same thing couldn't happen over a network connection and in fact I would expect it to work today over a properly setup network. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 20 Feb 97 08:54:28 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 42 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-13-19.access.one.net In-reply-to: danh@qnx.com's message of 19 Feb 1997 08:11:30 -0500 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190660 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20923 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15243 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58238 comp.sys.next.programmer:22924 comp.sys.next.misc:25130 comp.unix.machten:4100 comp.unix.osf.misc:4143 comp.os.mach:4090 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53660 In article <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> danh@qnx.com (Dan Hildebrand) writes: In article , Scott Hess wrote: >On a system like a NeXTstation, where the CPU, memory, and I/O are >relatively balanced, a monolithic kernel can be easily more >efficient. Easily? Can you back this up? While some monolithic kernels are faster than some microkernels, this is not universally true. I was not asserting that all monolithic kernels are more efficient than all microkernels for any machine. I was asserting that for a given system, a monolithic kernel written with the same close attention to detail and overall design as a microkernel for the same system should be more efficient because it can optimize away many operations. It might just take 30 times as long to write the monolithic kernel version. Unless I've _greatly_ misread a variety of papers, microkernels are coming into their own because we are asking entirely too much of our monolithic kernels. The amount of effort it takes to add something new to your monolithic kernel is often so great that you never get around to it - and thus a microkernel can be more efficient in the end. In essence, using a microkernel lets you get to a better design for the system faster than a monolithic kernel, so it wins in the end. This is similar to the differences between object programming and structured programming. Any given system _can_ be written in either. And if you write a given system using the same design in either, the structured version will generally be more efficient, because it doesn't have the object version's overhead. The fly in the ointment is that the structured version generally will never be written that way, though, because it doesn't help you manage complexity well enough. Object languages win in the end because though they might not be faster for a given design, they let you modify the design more easily. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!129.35.248.10!ausnews.austin.ibm.com!sjnews.sanjose.ibm.com!watnews.watson.ibm.com!grimsel.zurich.ibm.com!fritz.hw.boeblingen.ibm.com From: Koplien@vnet.IBM.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Record/Playback with SB16Vibra Date: Thu, 20 Feb 97 08:28:40 Organization: IBM Zurich Research Laboratory Lines: 3 Message-ID: <5egufj$15lm@grimsel.zurich.ibm.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 9.164.177.55 X-Newsreader: IBM-WebExplorer-DLL Is anybody able to simultaneously record and playback with this soundcard and the latest driver you will find on www.next.com (V3.33 I believe)? I need it for frequence measurements. Henry #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!rtd.com!opus1.com!opus1.com!nntp Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: MouseDown+Drag and SHIFT!! Message-ID: <330C9017.6518@running-start.com> From: Ralph Zazula Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 09:55:35 -0800 Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com References: Organization: Running Start, Inc. Nntp-Posting-Host: sierra.running-start.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 47 Hi - I'm assuming you are talking about the shift between the View coordinates and the coordinates given to you in the event (which are relative to the window). You can convert from Window-relative to View-relative coords with the following call: [self convertPoint:&mouseDownLocation fromView:nil]; Check the docs on View for more details. Ralph -- Ralph Zazula Running Start, Inc. zazula@running-start.com 520/760-4890 (4891 FAX) http://www.running-start.com fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr wrote: > > My mouseDown looks like: > > mouseDown:theEvent > { > oldMask = [window > addToEventMask:NX_MOUSEDRAGGEDMASK]; > while (shouldLoop) { > newEvent = [NXApp getNextEvent:(NX_MOUSEUPMASK > |NX_MOUSEDRAGGEDMASK|NX_MOUSEEXITEDMASK)] > ; > switch (newEvent->type){ > case NX_MOUSEUP: > {...} > case NX_MOUSEDRAGGED: > { > /*Heavy drawing here*/ > mouseDownLocation = theEvent->location; > /*next I use mouseDownLocation for drawing. But I'd > like to use the real mouse position (cursor position?) > because there is a shift between the real position of the > mouse(cursor) and the point I'm using.*/ > } > }}} > #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!news.sfu.ca!quinlan From: quinlan@sfu.ca (Brian Quinlan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 20 Feb 1997 18:38:23 GMT Organization: Simon Fraser University Lines: 14 Message-ID: <5ei5mv$6g6@morgoth.sfu.ca> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5dts78$bot$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> <5ecund$rcn$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: fraser.sfu.ca X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #5 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22927 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62091 comp.sys.mac.system:200791 I think that Apple should leave the Mac Type/Creater model in place. One problem that I have with my cube is that I work with two different types of files that have a .x extension. One is a type of image file and another is a RPC specification file. They also reside in the same directories (don't ask why). I am stuck with half of my .x files having the wrong default application. Type/Creator would immediately solve this problem. I don't care how they hack it into FFS as I think that they should quickly move towards a database style file system that can store arbitrary attributes anyways. -- Brian Quinlan "Never ask what sort of computer a guy drives. If he's a Mac quinlan@sfu.ca user, he'll tell you. If not, why embarrass him?" - Tom Clancy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!ais.net!ameritech.net!uunet!in2.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 97 08:43:53 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22928 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62094 comp.sys.mac.system:200803 hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) writes: >Scott Hess wrote: >As far as I recall, there _was_ a limit of about 6k files per volume. That must be a really old figure: I have a HFS-volume with more than 25,000 files on it and there's no problem at all. I think the limit is 32,767 files. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!bingnews.binghamton.edu!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 13:23:36 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 41 Message-ID: <5e9m4o$4lr@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22929 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62095 comp.sys.mac.system:200804 wharris@mail.airmail.net (Billy Harris) wrote: > This behavior is easy to achieve with a creator field, but if I > could only choose a single application for a pict file, I'd go > crazy waiting for the wrong program to open, quitting, locating > the correct program, and dragging the file to the program. This has been said a few times, but I suspect you've missed it. It also seems that some people who haven't used NeXTSTEP don't believe me (or anyone else) when I say this, but: Under NeXTSTEP, it is easy to find all applications that know how to open a given type (such as "pict"). What you list as "locating the correct program, and dragging the file to the program" would generally be done differently under NeXTSTEP. You'd: 1) with the document selected (in this case the PICT file), hit command-3 2) up pops a panel which shows the icon of every application which knows how to open a PICT. Double-click on the icon for the application that you want. I have used NeXTSTEP for five or six years. I have used the Mac for at least eight years (and my main responsibility at RPI is Mac support). I have both a Mac and a NeXTstation at home. I have a Mac and two NeXTSTEP machines in my office at work. I am not ignorant of either system. That said, this issue of "needing" a creator-field just isn't the issue that a Mac user might expect it to be. The NeXTSTEP interface works quite well. I don't feel too strongly about which way that Rhapsody ends up handling this. I'm just saying that based on my own experience of using both operating systems constantly, the NeXTSTEP user interface works quite well. In this area I find it better than the MacOS interface. At the same time, I understand that there is some advantage in having Rhapsody behave a lot like the MacOS does. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!mail2news.demon.co.uk!not-for-mail From: Tom Hageman Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: [Q]Getting list of windows in Openstep? Date: Wed, 19 Feb 97 21:50:09 +0100 Organization: Warty Wolfs Message-ID: <9702192049.AA10717@basil.icce.rug.nl> Reply-To: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-User: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl X-Mail2News-Path: obelix.icce.rug.nl!basil.icce.rug.nl!polly!next.mailer X-Authentication-Warning: obelix.icce.rug.nl: uubasil set sender to basil.icce.rug.nl!tom using -f Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 4.1mach v148) X-Image-Url: ftp://ftp.icce.rug.nl/pub/tom/Tom_Hageman@basil.icce.rug.nl.tiff X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 4.1mach (Enhance 2.0b5) Lines: 14 In article <856285888.5928@dejanews.com>, you wrote: > Is there any way of getting a list of the visible windows in Openstep, > and then their rectangles? Take a look at the Winfo mini-example from NeXTanswers (#1260) at www.next.com. Hope this helps, -- __/__/__/__/ Tom Hageman [NeXTmail/Mime OK] __/ __/_/ IC Group (work) __/__/__/ "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable __/ _/_/ from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.advocacy Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 14:28:48 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 43 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200807 comp.sys.next.programmer:22931 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62096 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 20-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Joel Klecker@esperance.c >> But that NFS client software doesn't come with MacOS, now does it? >> It's a seperate commercial product.... > > Very few Mac users need an NFS client. That's true-- but we've drifted away from the issue of Rhapsody. We've also drifted completely away from programming topics, so I'll try to set followups to .advocacy as per someone's request that I just saw. I think it would be nice for Rhapsody to include NFS client/server software for free like NEXTSTEP does. While it doesn't matter to me personally, I'd also expect that Apple will include their own networking and fileserver protocols (AppleTalk/EtherTalk and AppleShare) so that current Mac users don't need to transition to something else. I think it would be nice to figure out a way of representing out-of-band information currently in Mac resource/data forks in a way that it does not have to archived in the way AppleDouble/AppleSingle formats do now on non-Mac filesystems. The concept of wrappers (ie, directories which are treated by the GUI as though they were an individual file) works pretty well, I think. NeXT's Mach-O format used to store lots of things with an executable that are now stored as seperate files in an .app wrapper (ex, the file icon, help files, .nibs, etc), and the wrapper system works better. However, I'd still survive even if Apple decided to keep a filesystem more like the HFS than the Berkeley FFS with forks, seperate creator and file type information, the creation timestamp, and everything else that's been discussed/argued. I'd prefer something better, but Apple has to compromise between backwards compatibility, time required to change NeXT's technology, and their future goals for Rhapsody-- and the lord only knows what will be the results.... :-) -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 20 Feb 1997 20:52:24 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 44 Message-ID: <5eidi8$9nt@news3.digex.net> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190717 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20926 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15248 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58258 comp.sys.next.programmer:22932 comp.sys.next.misc:25133 comp.unix.machten:4101 comp.unix.osf.misc:4145 comp.os.mach:4091 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53684 jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: > John Kheit writes: > [munch] > >things monolithic for perfromance reasons. Yet the functionality > >of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. > Good God, John! Please please, just 'John' will be fine. :) > You're going to be a Lawyer! You should know that the correct > word isn't"Monolithicness", it's "monolithicity!" Actually, neither show up in websters. > "Monolithicness", actually spelled "monoliTHICKness," is a > different word altogether, meaning: "The smallest dimension of > that thing in Kubric's movie, 2001," or: "The mental state of > believing that statically linking everything is Just Fine." Now I see how L. Ron. Hubbard became god :) > Yours for a more erudite, and sesquipedalian c.s.n.a, Mine for a more plain spoken, blunt, and effective communication, sans perwinkle obfuscation of content, or pedantic clutching to semantics. :) -- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed... monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Ja tallar ente svenska )^> %^) =^) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 20 Feb 1997 14:55:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5eidi8$9nt@news3.digex.net> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.250 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.machten, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.osf.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.mach, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190726 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20928 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15250 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58261 comp.sys.next.programmer:22933 comp.sys.next.misc:25135 comp.unix.machten:4102 comp.unix.osf.misc:4146 comp.os.mach:4092 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53686 John Kheit said: >jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: >> You're going to be a Lawyer! You should know that the correct >> word isn't"Monolithicness", it's "monolithicity!" > >Actually, neither show up in websters. Monolithicism, on the other hand, does. Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary: Monolithicism -the state of being monolithic. --------------------------------------------------- Apple is a company, but Macintosh is a community. -S.M. King --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-9.sprintlink.net!news.dgsys.com!reader1.news.act.net!genoa.com!usenet From: Alex Blakemore Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 20 Feb 1997 03:31:43 GMT Organization: Genoa Software Systems Lines: 24 Message-ID: <5eggiv$8t7@saturn.genoa.com> References: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> <5ebqe6$hu6@concorde.ctp.com> <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: Alex Blakemore NNTP-Posting-Host: jupiter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: apuleius@ix.netcom.com In <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> William Grosso wrote: > (1) NeXT's claim that 50K lines take approximately a month. > (2) Many exchanges such as the following fom c.s.n.misc > No, it's a right f**king pain in the arse. > (3) Statements from prominent NEXTSTEP programmers,> >it is non-trivial to do! > (4) Georg's assertion that it's a piece of cake. > Draw your own conclusions about the validity of what Georg says. The cost to convert varies tremendously and depends on several factors. 1. was the original app reasonable well designed, modular, written in a maintainable way, or was it slapped together. 2. how well do the converters know the app, old NeXTSTEP, OPENSTEP 3. does the app use features such as dbkit that went away completely, or streams which changed significantly. 4. does the already use foundation classes. Given a well designed well written non-dbkit app with skilled experienced developers you might approach NeXT's estimates. Unfortunately, that's not often the case. -- Alex Blakemore alex@genoa.com NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!Online From: Online@MacTech.com ( nick.c @MT ) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:47:21 -0800 Organization: MacTech Magazine Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> <5eacjo$f6o@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.97.76.42 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 mark_bessey@next.com wrote: >John Siracusa writes >> From MacWeek: >> >> Sources in the boiler room report that Rhapsody will weigh in at about >> 110 Mbytes of pure chewing satisfaction and come with three levels of >> Install: EZ, Minimal and Custom. > >Wow. I wonder how the folks at MacWeek know how much disk space Rhapsody >is going to use, when it hasn't even been built yet? Sources say: the Knife has a time machine. ____Nicholas C. DeMello, Ph.D.___________________________________________ "MacTech Online"--MacTech Magazine, for Mac OS Programmers and Developers http://www.MacTech.com/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ Chemistry: Nick@chem.UCLA.edu _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ MacTech: Online@MacTech.com _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~nick/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!Online From: Online@MacTech.com ( nick.c @MT ) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:54:04 -0800 Organization: MacTech Magazine Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> <5eacjo$f6o@news.next.com> <5egj22$sfr@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: 128.97.76.42 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22936 comp.sys.mac.system:200840 macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa) wrote: >Makes you wonder 1. if the letter written back before Copland was >canceled, and 2. what the heck Apple programmers are doing in Toyko... Might have something to do with the launch of MacTech Japan. It's supposed to include dev info from Apple Japan as well as the regular MacTech fair... XPLAIN AND ASCII LAUNCH MACTECH JAPAN Westlake Village, CA and Tokyo, Japan -- February 17, 1997 -- Xplain Corporation, the publisher of MacTech Magazine, today announced that it is launching MacTech Japan with noted Japanese publisher, ASCII Corporation. Until today, Japanese MacOS developers have had to work twice as hard by using English based documentation. Not only did they have to battle the technical issues, but a language barrier as well. Now, MacTech Japan, a fully localized version of MacTech Magazine in the United States (MacTech US), solves that. Starting initially as a bi-monthly publication, MacTech Japan will not only include translated articles from MacTech US, but will also include translated information from Apple Japan and the Japanese developer community. ....... ____Nicholas C. DeMello, Ph.D.___________________________________________ "MacTech Online"--MacTech Magazine, for Mac OS Programmers and Developers http://www.MacTech.com/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ Chemistry: Nick@chem.UCLA.edu _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ MacTech: Online@MacTech.com _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ http://www.chem.ucla.edu/~nick/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!136.142.185.26!newsfeed.pitt.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:12:50 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 109 Message-ID: <8n2mO2O00iWl05_J00@andrew.cmu.edu> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200846 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62109 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4174 comp.sys.next.programmer:22937 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >>> In any case, I come back to the original point, that in most cases it >>> is inappropriate for the OS to send an error/exception back to processes >>> that are waiting on resources, without at least trying some recovery, >>> either automatic or with operator assistance first. If the OS doesn't >>> do this then you do not have a very robust OS. >> >> Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell >> it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of >> robust! You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial >> system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper >> encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS >> of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled >> within the process. > > You are not only not reading correctly what I am saying, but in your > misreadings are quite wrong. How am I misreading what you've said? What is wrong with my statements? You've made vague assertions without anything to back your claims up. I'm afraid that "proof by assertion" doesn't qualify as a legitimate argument. >> Go perform some research on operating system design theory, Ian. > > Go do some research on Netiquette. You might find that you get > more pleasant exchanges with people. I have plenty of pleasant exchanges with people. One of the two email messages I received at cs4w@andrew overnight was someone thanking me for my comments about named. I've never really thought about it, but I probably get thanked by some person or other several times a week for information I've provided them. However, I have a policy of responding to people's messages using a similiar tone and rhetorical style. If you object to my tone, look at some of the phrases _you've_ used. > Technically, you should go and use a system other than Unix. Do yourself a favor and stop trying to tell me what OS's I've used; it's nothing but a strawman argument. I have used many operating systems besides Unix. >> You might learn something about why your suggestion is so mistaken. > > From what I have seen you certainly don't have a monopoly on truth, Nope, I don't-- I am wrong some of the time, and that is fine by me since I learn more from being wrong than I do from being correct. I'm willing to publicly acknowledge when I'm wrong because I try hard not to let my own confidence in the validity of what I believe prevent me from accepting facts even when they contradict my beliefs. > and even further quite a meagre understanding, Perhaps that's true. But what does that imply about you, who hasn't been able to refute my arguments about operating system design? Why don't you start by readdressing the technical points made in the paragraph above starting with "Blocking a process..." instead of making claims that you don't even try to substantiate? > and probably not much experience beyond the confines of Unix. This strawman appears again, I see. > You are doing pretty well in monopolising beligerence. Please come > back to the group only when you can write in a politer tone. I make no apologies for responding to your arguments the way I have. You don't have to like it since you're free to place me in a killfile if you so desire. > As I have said before, please keep it technical. Only a hypocrite would attempt to criticise my ability to make technical points after you've made comments like "Unix is bloated" or strawman arguments such as your repeated claim that my knowledge of operating systems is limited to Unix! I've gotten into the same exact argument in another thread with some other anti-Unix person who was convinced that the Unix aspects of NEXTSTEP require 100 MB or more (he claimed that 100 MB was a conservative estimate, actually) when the truth of the matter is that the Unix CLI layer under NEXTSTEP requires under 15 MB. Even after this fact was pointed out to him by showing the results of 'du /bin /usr/bin /usr/ucb /usr/etc', he responded by saying that maybe Unix only would require 50 MB! You want to have a friendly, technical discussion, Ian? Well, I'll be happy to provide you with one after you stop your Unix bigotry and start responding with technical points of your own instead of making unsubstantiated claims. You can start by withdrawing your assertion that "Unix is bloated" now that you've got some facts to work with.... -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: michael (Michael F. DeMan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: PDO and hooking in an ORB Date: 21 Feb 1997 02:03:35 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 19 Message-ID: <5eivpn$rnt@news.next.com> References: <32FA645B.2C4A@abacus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: netuser12.next.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: jimg@abacus.com In <32FA645B.2C4A@abacus.com> Jim Gagnon wrote: > I'm in the process of learning OpenStep and am having problems in > finding documentation on how to take an existing ORB and tie it into PDO > so that it can successfully interoperate with other ORBs. If I can tie > our application's object engine in with PDO, I can port all non-GUI code > over in one fell swoop and focus on creating a new user interface for > it. > > Any advice would be welcome. Thanks! > > NeXT is supposed to be shipping an IIOP/CORBA compliant interface this summer. If you can wait a while and spend the $ for it when it arrives it should alleviate all your problems. Mike DeMan michael@rum.cs.wwu.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!RRZ.Uni-Koeln.DE!news.duesseldorf.ecrc.net!news.hamburg.ecrc.net!news.hamburg.pop.de!nordwest.pop.de!informatik.uni-bremen.de!cs.tu-berlin.de!unlisys!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!ddsw1!not-for-mail From: jweiss@MCS.COM (Jerry S. Weiss) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten Subject: Re: Aliens among our Computers (was <...> IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!) Date: 19 Feb 1997 17:03:17 -0600 Organization: MCSNet, Chicagoland's finest Internet provider - 312-803-6271 Lines: 39 Message-ID: <5eg0rl$s14$1@Jupiter.Mcs.Net> References: <5ef4nd$qut@qnx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: jupiter.mcs.net Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190778 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20930 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15253 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58279 comp.sys.next.programmer:22939 comp.sys.next.misc:25137 comp.unix.machten:4104 In article , Mark Carmichael wrote: >In article , "Lawson English" > wrote: > > > > >Since the aliens in ID4 had DOS its wouldn't be a wonder if Apple > >looked to the stars for their salvation. > > Nah. They had Windows. Bill Gates was the last survivor of the Roswell > Crash, waiting for rescue and trying to sabatoge the Macintosh Way while he > [....] > >Nefariously seeding technical newsgroups with psycho-viral crosspostings >*that we cannont resist responding to* is also part of their evil plan. > >All of this Borg stuff reminds me of my personal vision of the climatic >ending of "Terminator IX", wherein the latest Machine representative is >tricked into entering DOS compatibility mode using logic (by an aged >William Shatner, in a cameo appearance). > Actually you could probably get any electronic device with more than two transistors to fail by simply exposing it to a sample of William Shatner's singing talent (or lack thereof). All the more reason why Vulcans, given their finely tuned logic and excellent hearing won't come withing 100 parsecs of this silly little rock. It would be nice to use one Bill to defeat the other and his changeling operating system. Alas the resultant back blast from such an event would sterilize the entire planet. Instead, I think we need to trust Steve and try to imagine how he would look in pointed ears ;-) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!news.uni-stuttgart.de!rz.uni-karlsruhe.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!EU.net!news.mathworks.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!Mike.Connally From: Mike.Connally@dial.pipex.com (Mike Connally) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:37:09 +0000 Organization: UUNet PIPEX server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet PIPEX) Lines: 29 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: ao149.du.pipex.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62112 comp.sys.mac.system:200858 comp.sys.next.programmer:22940 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > However, I can't NFS mount a remote fileserver on a Mac and be able to > run Mac executables, because they require the out-of-band information > stored in their resource forks which is not representable within the > standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms. Wrong. NFS client software is available for MacOS from several vendors, and any Mac file (documents or executables) can reside on any NFS server platform and be used by the Mac transparently. > Executables are machine specific, correct-- but they can be stored on > remote fileservers without any problems, and they should be able to run > on the appropriate hardware platform that the executable was compiled > for. Yes. No problem for Macs with NFS client software, > Sorry, but you're wrong. Macs do not integrate very well with with > heterogenous network fileservers, because their executables won't be > runnable when stored on an NFS fileserver (or a NT fileserver, or a > Novell fileserver, etc). And I repeat: yes they are. -- Mike Connally Reading, England 'At 50, everyone has the face he deserves.' - George Orwell #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 19 Feb 1997 22:56:18 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 22 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190784 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20931 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15254 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58281 comp.sys.next.programmer:22941 comp.sys.next.misc:25138 comp.unix.machten:4105 comp.unix.osf.misc:4150 comp.os.mach:4094 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53712 John Kheit writes: [munch] >things monolithic for perfromance reasons. Yet the functionality >of a monolithic kernel is not reduced by its monolithicness. Good God, John! You're going to be a Lawyer! You should know that the correct word isn't"Monolithicness", it's "monolithicity!" "Monolithicness", actually spelled "monoliTHICKness," is a different word altogether, meaning: "The smallest dimension of that thing in Kubric's movie, 2001," or: "The mental state of believing that statically linking everything is Just Fine." Yours for a more erudite, and sesquipedalian c.s.n.a, -jcr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:29:53 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 73 Message-ID: <330CEC81.5A34@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200862 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4175 comp.sys.next.programmer:22942 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62115 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 20-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > >>> For example, any read to a file is essentially a concurrency problem... > >>> your process will probably suspend until the required data is read > >>> from disk. > >> > >> That depends entirely upon how the process wants to read the file. The > >> process can decide to perform non-blocking I/O file with the O_NDELAY or > >> O_NONBLOCK flags to open(), or via select() on a set of open file > >> descriptors. > > > > Correct. There are many different ways to handle IO. Blocking vs > > non-blocking is one of them. > > If you understand the difference, why did you claim that "your process > would probably suspend..." when a process using non-blocking I/O will > not suspend? > > Contradiction detected. Do you understand the meaning of the word probably? I understand non blocking IO thank you. It says, "Dear M. OS, please perform this function for me, oh and by the way, if you can't, don't bother I'll find something else to do." Blocking requests are quite different, they say "Dear M. OS, please get me this, and I'll wait around until you can." > According to what you've said, if I find Unix a better solution for some > task, then I can't be a "real user of computers"? > > What nonsense.... You are correct, your previous statement was nonsense. Please stop putting words in my mouth, and then arguing as if I said them. And you are the first to accuse others of the strawman tactic! > >> That's why people write software layers on top of the OS, such as > >> OPENSTEP, which provide higher level abstractions which use the more > >> primitive functionality provided by the OS. And that's where those > >> high-level abstractions belong-- not in the kernel.... > > > > Right, but as far as an application is concerned that is the OS. > > You have one of the most bizzare viewpoints I've ever seen. Not at all. From the applications viewpoint, when it calls a system level service for a resource, it is calling the OS. Doesn't matter how the system is implemented, whether its got multiple layers, structured as free standing modules or whatever. > OPENSTEP is not an operating system; it's an software layer that > provides an abstraction _away_ from the specific OS that the application > runs on, so that the app can do useful things without having to be > written using non-portable, operating-system-specific functionality. Well, I think we're actually saying the same thing here, so I can't see why you were picking an argument above. As I said, to the application, that abstraction you are talking about is the OS. If the application can tell any different, then it's not an abstraction! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 19 Feb 1997 17:39:03 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 50 Message-ID: <5efdrn$beo@news.xmission.com> References: <5eagds$niv$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk> <5ebqe6$hu6@concorde.ctp.com> <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <5ecusc$9p0@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote: I think first part was me, a while back, if I recall correctly. Seems vaguely familiar... :-) > > >It is true. NEXTSTEP != OPENSTEP as far as the API goes. > > >There are some major differences, some of which are > > >conceptual and require not just changing method names, but in > > >some cases completely _rewriting_code. Stuff that uses > > >streams a lot can be onerous, for example. Having done some > > >NEXTSTEP->OPENSTEP conversion, I will openly state: > > >it is non-trivial to do! > > > > and > > > > (4) Georg's assertion that it's a piece of cake. > > > > Draw your own conclusions about the validity of what Georg says. > > To be fair, a LOT depends on how your code is structured.[...]. That's it in a nutshell. It really depends upon what the code you started with looks like. As Georg asserts, in many cases code _can_ convert easily. I've found certain NEXTSTEP constructs that don't map well, but I've also found that once converted to OPENSTEP there's usually an improvement in the code I converted as a result. (I've written plenty of bad code in my time; the stuff I'd call "good" code tends to be easier to convert, so...) So, while there may be some work involved, it does seem to be worth the effort to do the conversion. > I have not found a work around for the lack of file descriptors > in Postscript > How does MiscSerialPort handle this ? Or MiscSubprocess... Right now, they don't. If anyone has any ideas and would like to complete the conversion, be my guest. :-) Right now, I've got other fish to fry, so it will be a while before I get time to bang on that problem... -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!198.4.241.4!brownfox.svs.com!vickery From: vickery@tornado.svs.com (Jeffrey M. Vickery) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.unix.bsd.misc Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 12:44:07 -0600 Organization: Sun Valley SoftWare, Ltd. (tornado) Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <5edvm7$t2v@news0-alterdial.uu.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tornado.svs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190823 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20932 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15259 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58293 comp.sys.next.programmer:22944 comp.sys.next.misc:25139 comp.unix.machten:4106 comp.unix.osf.misc:4151 comp.os.mach:4095 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53734 comp.unix.bsd.misc:2854 In article <5edvm7$t2v@news0-alterdial.uu.net>, mail25193@pop.net wrote: > Just as an aside, imagine for a moment what things would be like if everyone > in the workplace (note ! - just the workplace) who now has a PC on their desk > running a DOS/MS derivative would instead have a PC on their desk running Unix > with a GUI, a minimal administrative interface, and the productivity tools > equivalent to what they have under MS (which exist, please don't even start that > discussion.) Fred: I can't agree with you more! In fact, an aquaintance of mine that used to work for John Deer (The farm equipment people) as a programmer told me all about the system that he used to do updates for back in what I believe was the early 80's... Since Windows didn't exist at this time, Unix was really widely used in the business world - but usually with badly written packages that one would use via a terminal. However, Deer decided to implement a workgroup system that ran over SVR4 with Berkeley enhancements (essentially just the 'r'-series commands). What they found is that they could write their own windowing system (similar to X11) that could be customized for their own use - not somebody else's interface guidelines (i.e. MS Windows). Releasing updates was a snap because, of course, the system was easy to patch. Instead of hinging their technological ability on how often Microsoft would decide to release an update, they had a powerful client/server based system that could be easily modified by an in-house staff of "computer geeks" that knew Unix. Imagine how much money would be saved in the American business (hell, the global business) if such systems were implemented today. Instead of letting Gates get a share of everything, everything would be based on an industry-standard that can be ported to practically any other Unix platform. One common complaint is that you would then have systems that can't talk to each other. The contrary, though, is true - TCP/IP is good enough to drive a network as large as the Internet - why wouldn't it be good enough for corporate Intranet's? MS and any other Windows peddling company seems to think so as well, as they're dumping millions into the Intranet philosophy...Something that could have been done with Unix systems almost 20 years ago. I think relying on a key player like MS to provide updates for "everything" will be the downfall...or at least I hope it will be. Anyway, enough ranting... Best, Jeff +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jeffrey M. Vickery | Electronic Mail: vickery@tornado.svs.com | | System Administrator +--------------------------------------------------+ | tornado.svs.com | World Wide Web: http://tornado.svs.com/~vickery/ | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!pasteur.fr!jussieu.fr!fdn.fr!r2d2.fdn.org!free.fdn.fr!news From: Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Message-ID: Sender: news@free.fdn.fr Organization: Fabien Roy Consultant. X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 13:07:48 GMT Lines: 29 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22945 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62122 comp.sys.mac.system:200891 peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) wrote: > hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) writes: > >Scott Hess wrote: > >As far as I recall, there _was_ a limit of about 6k files per volume. > > That must be a really old figure: I have a HFS-volume with more than 25,000 > files on it and there's no problem at all. I think the limit is 32,767 files. > > > -- > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT > Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology > Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 How long did it take to reconstruct the finder database over your 25,000 files? -- Fabien Roy --------------------------------------------------------------------- Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted) Fabien Roy Consultant NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA 10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23 Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90 GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!nntp-hub.barrnet.net!news.NeXT.COM!usenet From: michael (Michael F. DeMan) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: How to make "STOP" button? Date: 21 Feb 1997 01:53:12 GMT Organization: NeXT Software, Inc. Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5eiv68$rnt@news.next.com> References: <5cp1vh$a0h@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: netuser12.next.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: altenber@acpub.duke.edu In <5cp1vh$a0h@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Lee Altenberg wrote: > What is the standard (or just a good) method for enabling a user to stop a > process in process? I have a method which iterates a dynamical system: > > - iterate:sender > { > while (loopConditionMet) > { > Iterate(dynamicalSystem); > } > return self: > } > > Can I just stick some method call in the loop that checks to see if I've pressed > a "STOP" button on my application? > > if ( [stopButton isPressed] ) exit; > > What would be the implementation of [stopButton isPressed] ? > > Thanks much, > Lee > There are lots of ways to do this, the easist is to simply hookup your stop button to a method that sets up a boolean value.... - stopButtonClicked: sender { theGlobalBoolean = FALSE; } Then check the value of that boolean in your loop. You can query the button itself but the overhead in making the query could be much higher - plus if it's a non-toggle button the user would have to be clicking on it at just the right time to ensure it was in the 'isPressed' state when the app. check it. Good luck, Mike DeMan michael@rum.cs.wwu.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: How to make "STOP" button? Date: 21 Feb 1997 04:22:18 GMT Organization: Netcom Lines: 56 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5ej7tq$csp@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <5cp1vh$a0h@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> <5eiv68$rnt@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: scz-ca17-19.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Feb 20 10:22:18 PM CST 1997 X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) michael (Michael F. DeMan) wrote: > In <5cp1vh$a0h@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Lee Altenberg wrote: > > What is the standard (or just a good) method for enabling a user to stop a > > process in process? I have a method which iterates a dynamical system: > > > > - iterate:sender > > { > > while (loopConditionMet) > > { > > Iterate(dynamicalSystem); > > } > > return self: > > } > > > > Can I just stick some method call in the loop that checks to see if I've > pressed > > a "STOP" button on my application? > > > > if ( [stopButton isPressed] ) exit; > > > > What would be the implementation of [stopButton isPressed] ? > > > > Thanks much, > > Lee > > > > There are lots of ways to do this, the easist is to simply hookup your stop > button to a method that sets up a boolean value.... > > - stopButtonClicked: sender { > theGlobalBoolean = FALSE; > } Unless you set up your own event loop or run a modal event loop, the mouse-down/mouse-up events necessary to activate the button won't be serviced until after the loop completes which isn't a very good STOP implementation :-) > Then check the value of that boolean in your loop. You can query the button > itself but the overhead in making the query could be much higher - plus if > it's a non-toggle button the user would have to be clicking on it at just the > right time to ensure it was in the 'isPressed' state when the app. check it. Unless you're running a multithreaded app, the loop won't be checking the button's state at the same time that the button is being pressed. -- Art Isbell NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com Trego Systems Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515 OPENSTEP/NT Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154 managed care solutions US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!mr.net!news.mr.net!wavefront.com!not-for-mail From: Pohl Longsine Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 20:43:25 -0600 Organization: mementech, inc. Lines: 36 Message-ID: <330D0BCD.5AD3C7F6@screaming.org> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eidi8$9nt@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: godel.mementech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.27 i486) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190846 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20933 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15263 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58302 comp.sys.next.programmer:22948 comp.sys.next.misc:25141 comp.unix.machten:4107 comp.unix.osf.misc:4152 comp.os.mach:4097 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53748 John Kheit wrote: > jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: > > > > "Monolithicness", actually spelled "monoliTHICKness," is a > > different word altogether, meaning: "The smallest dimension of > > that thing in Kubric's movie, 2001," or: "The mental state of > > believing that statically linking everything is Just Fine." > > Now I see how L. Ron. Hubbard became god :) Speaking of clever obfuscation, has anybody here actually read Dianetics? I swear: there are scores of plain, blunt words used as special Scientologist jargon -- none of which is given an adequate definition -- and the book is littered with footnotes defining "hard words" like prefrontal lobes arthritis sinusitis bursitis diabetes vacillate ...and then slowly throughout the book, L Ron Hoover starts slipping in L Ron Hoover's First Church of Appliantology Nomenclature(tm) -- all of which are defined in terms of each other. It's a fascinating tangled web of stupidity, written in a plain, easy to read form. And it makes a great gift, too! -- pohl@screaming.org |"Reality is that which when you stop believing http://screaming.org/ | in it doesn't go away." -- Philip K. Dick ----------------------+---------------------------------------------- OpenStep Inferno Java | Making the world safe for platform diversity. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!132.175.109.6!news.sandia.gov!tesuque!lynx.unm.edu!news.mhpcc.edu!news From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 21 Feb 1997 02:19:35 GMT Organization: MHPCC Lines: 25 Message-ID: <5ej0nn$6t6@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) NNTP-Posting-Host: montana.mhpcc.edu X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22949 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62126 comp.sys.mac.system:200906 Here's an example of why I can't stand the Mac's HFS file system. I just bought the Sonata font from Adobe. Adobe told me the Mac version would work with NEXTSTEP. So, I got the suckah, and put it on a Power Mac. I then used Fetch to send it over the network to my PC running NEXTSTEP 3.3. Fetch allowed me to pick Mac Binary II or BinHex. I tried both. When Opener on the NeXT side opens the *.hqx or *.bin files, it shows 0 bytes in the *.data file. All the data is in the *.rsrc files, i.e. the resource fork. Why is all the font data (these are the bitmap and outline files) in the resource fork, not the data fork? Anyway, the outline file is supposed to be ASCII PostScript, but it has lots of binary data in it. What a PITA! By the way, if you know what is wrong and how to fix it, please drop me a note. -- ======================================================================= Lee Altenberg, Ph.D. Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa Office: Maui High Performance Computing Center 550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100 Kihei, Maui HI 96753 Phone: (808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax) E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu Web: http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/ ======================================================================= #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!news2.digex.net!news From: John Kheit Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 21 Feb 1997 06:39:11 GMT Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA Lines: 15 Message-ID: <5ejfuf$ae2@news4.digex.net> References: <5eidi8$9nt@news3.digex.net> Reply-To: jkheit@cnj.digex.net NNTP-Posting-Host: cjc08018.slip.digex.net X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.8b) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190860 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20934 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15264 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58306 comp.sys.next.programmer:22950 comp.sys.next.misc:25142 comp.unix.machten:4108 comp.unix.osf.misc:4153 comp.os.mach:4098 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53760 "Lawson English" wrote: > John Kheit said: Monolithicism, on the > other hand, does. Webster's 3rd New International Dictionary: > Monolithicism -the state of being monolithic. In the states, the authority is likely to be the 9th or newer version. -- Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed... monoChrome, Inc. | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit New York Law School | Ja tallar ente svenska )^> %^) =^) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!206.112.192.109!newsfeed.one.net!news.one.net!howard.one.net!howard!shess From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 19 Feb 97 12:25:56 Organization: Is a sign of weakness Lines: 53 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eepmi$r6e@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: port-11-24.access.one.net In-reply-to: syy@ecmwf.int's message of 19 Feb 1997 11:54:58 GMT Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22951 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62133 comp.sys.mac.system:200917 In article <5eepmi$r6e@horus.ecmwf.int> syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) writes: There's a tendency in the NeXT community not to grok the utility of MacOS features like file type & creator codes, Macintosh Easy Open, and full drag-and-drop capability. . The file TYPE code is analogous to a filename extension (but unintrusive). An app knows which file types it can handle. As on NeXTSTEP. The file CREATOR code simply indicates which app created the file. Double-clicking a file tries to launch that app. NeXTSTEP tries to launch whichever app you've indicated you prefer to open that particular type of file with. If the app isn't found, Macintosh Easy Open launches to ask the user to nominate a substitute app which can handle that file type. Easy. From then on, that app becomes that user's preferred launch. NeXTSTEP in this case pops up an inspector, where you can choose to either do a one-time launch of that file in any of the apps that claim to handle it, or you can set it for all files of that type. You can also get that inspector by selecting a file and hitting Command-2 or something (sorry, I don't know offhand which menu item gets you there). And for further user flexibility, there's drag-and-drop. NeXTfreaks might say: |> >Once more, you have the choice. If you prefer, you can |> >command-drag your file icon onto a running or "docked" |> >application icon to have it opened in a different app. That's good. On a Mac it's even better. You can simply drag (no need for the command key) any document onto any app, as long as that app is willing to handle that file type. The app can be anywhere (in a folder, on the desktop, in the Launcher, wherever), and it can be running or not. Doesn't matter. Just as on NeXTSTEP, pretty much (NeXTSTEP has different notions of some of the things you mentioned, but it works in the context of those different notions, go figure). The main reason Command-drag is used instead of plain drag is because apps had already implemented plain-drag onto app icons before NeXT made the change. They didn't want to screw existing programs with an incompatible addition. Later, -- scott hess (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 20 Feb 1997 22:30:07 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 25 Message-ID: References: X-Posted-By: @206.165.42.206 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.machten, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.osf.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.mach, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190888 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20937 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15265 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58323 comp.sys.next.programmer:22952 comp.sys.next.misc:25144 comp.unix.machten:4110 comp.unix.osf.misc:4154 comp.os.mach:4100 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53776 John C. Randolph queried: >>Monolithicism -the state of being monolithic. > >Well, the thirty-day killfile entry expired, and what do I see right away? >An article by Lawson, demonstrating once again, that he has far more time >on his hands than I do. > >-jcr > >PS: So, Lawson: Any luck on the GX advocacy fight? So, John, how's the Gratituous Insult business? I mean, if you don't have enough time look up a word in a dictionary, but DO have enough time to flame me, I gotta assume that yours was a work-related post, right? --------------------------------------------------- Apple is a company, but Macintosh is a community. -S.M. King --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!fiji.easyway.net!news From: fuckyou@yourass.xxx Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: laptop4sale! - laptop4sale.doc (1/1) Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:15:43 GMT Organization: Easyway Communication Inc. Lines: 117 Message-ID: <330d74cf.3832599@news.easyway.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: nyc01-sl12.easyway.net X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 begin 644 laptop4sale.doc MT,\1X*&Q&N$`````````````````````/@`#`/[_"0`&```````````````! M`````0``````````$````@````$```#^____``````````#_____________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M_______________________]_____O____[___\$````!0````8````'```` M"````/[_____________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M_____________________________________________U(`;P!O`'0`(`!% M`&X`=`!R`'D````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````6``4`__________\!``````D"``````#`````````1@`````` M`````````.`^YHG>'[P!`P```,`+````````5P!O`'(`9`!$`&\`8P!U`&T` M90!N`'0````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`!H``@$"````__________\````````````````````````````````````` M`````````````````@L````````!`$,`;P!M`'``3P!B`&H````````````` M````````````````````````````````````````````````````$@`"`/__ M_____________P`````````````````````````````````````````````` M`"T```!>```````````````````````````````````````````````````` M````````````````````````````````````````````````____________ M____```````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M`````````0````(````#````!`````4````&````!P````@````)````"@`` M``L````,````#0````X````/````$````!$````2````$P```!0````5```` M%@```!<````8````&0```!H````;````'````!T````>````'P```"`````A M````(@```",````D````)0```"8````G````*````"D````J````*P```"P` M``#^____+@```/[_____________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M_______________________________7-T96T`%0``````5&EM97,@ M3F5W(%)O;6%N`!40`````%1I;65S($YE=R!2;VUA;@`@("`@*BHJ*BHJ*DQ! M4%1/4"!&3U(@4T%,12HJ*BHJ*BH-#4=!5$5705DR,#`P(%!%3E1)54TQ,C`@ M#3$V345'(%)!30TQ+C)'24<@2$%21"!$4DE610U214U/5D5!0DQ%($-$+5)/ M32!!3D0@1DQ/3U!9#4-(25!3("8@5$5#2"X@5DE$14\@04-#14Q%4D%43U(- M15-3(%-/54Y$#4)524Q$($E.(%-014%+15)3#3(X+CA00TU#24$@34]$14T- M041!4%1%0R!30U-)($-!4D0H<&-M8VEA*0TH=VET:"`R(&-A8FQE6]R:R!ASKZNGHY^;EY./BX>#?WMW NNTP-Posting-Host: salmon.mdc.com OpenStep 4.1 for Mach question: Some C code I'm compiling and putting into a shared object library (via ld -r) for later dynamic loading (using rld) is now refusing to be loaded. I've begged and pleaded, but to no avail. The error I'm now getting is something like "cannot use rld with dynamic shared libraries." Since all the "standard" libraries (e.g., libsys_s.dylib) are now dynamic shared libraries, are the rld routines no longer usable? I can switch to use dyld routines and use libtool--is this what I should do? Can someone point to some documentation (man pages aren't telling the complete story) that discusses rld routines under OpenStep 4.1? Also, I noticed that we can no longer build static executables, since there are no static "standard" libraries. Try compiling the "Hello, world" program using the -static compile/link switch. -- Mark Allman -- Sr. Engineer, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace, allman@pat.mdc.com -- Software consulting (Perl, C, Python, ...), ghost@ghost.neosoft.com -- (see: http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/5857.html) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!Mike.Connally From: Mike.Connally@dial.pipex.com (Mike Connally) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:31:33 +0000 Organization: UUNet PIPEX server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet PIPEX) Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5dts78$bot$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> <5ecund$rcn$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ao149.du.pipex.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22955 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62148 comp.sys.mac.system:200949 In article <5ecund$rcn$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: [about the Mac] > > That's kind of what I meant.. You can't choose to open by file type _OVER_ > file creator. If the file creator data is there, and the file creator app > exists on that machine, you MUST use it. You cannot choose a file type > application OVER that creator app. I didn't say you can't open by file type > at all. I simply said the Mac doesn't give you a choice between the two -- > if creator exists you use it, otherwise you use type... no choice. Wrong. You can either drag-and-drop any file of a compatible type onto any app (easy) or you can launch the app and the use the File Open dialog to open any document of a compatible type (fiddly, but Windows people seem to like it). -- Mike Connally Reading, England 'At 50, everyone has the face he deserves.' - George Orwell #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!Mike.Connally From: Mike.Connally@dial.pipex.com (Mike Connally) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:40:04 +0000 Organization: UUNet PIPEX server (post doesn't reflect views of UUNet PIPEX) Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> <330A2E07.563D@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ao149.du.pipex.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.6 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22956 comp.sys.mac.system:200950 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62149 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 18-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: File S.. by Larry Kendall@ix.netcom. > > With The standard Novell for Mac nlms running on 3.1.1 you can store and > > run your executables from the novell file server. I've been doing it for > > years. If the program requires system extension they have to be in the > > ext folder of the local Mac of course. > > Okay, thanks for the correction. Even so, the point still applies to > just NFS servers, which is more relevent for me.... No it doesn't. With NFS client software, Macs can use any file (data or executable) resident on any NFS server. -- Mike Connally Reading, England 'At 50, everyone has the face he deserves.' - George Orwell #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!ctp.com!news From: "Georg Tuparev" Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 21 Feb 1997 10:57:10 GMT Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc. Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5ejv26$bsl@concorde.ctp.com> References: <5egap7$beo@news.xmission.com> Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com NNTP-Posting-Host: haring.nl.ctp.com In article <5egap7$beo@news.xmission.com> don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) writes: > Perhaps we should include a List/HashTable implementation in > the MiscKit for people who are hopelessly attached to that API? Everyone is free to grab them from GNU's foundation implementation ;-) ... but some people prefer to complain :-( Coll to see some folks like Don and Tomi still around .. to balance the optimism... -- georg -- -- ------- /\/\ Georg Tuparev / /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners \ / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15 \/\/ 1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands Tel: +31(20)575-0492 Fax: +31(20)575-0500 WWW: http://www.ctp.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 21 Feb 97 07:23:57 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 13 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22958 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62152 comp.sys.mac.system:200954 Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org writes: >How long did it take to reconstruct the finder database over your 25,000 >files? I dunno; a couple of minutes (not that many actually). Something inbetween five and ten minutes. That's OK if you do it once a year or so. I fact, I can't remember when I last did it, I think it was in 1996 but I'm not sure. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-mannheim.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!tutnix.rhein-neckar.de!espresso.hf.org!hauke From: hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:02:14 +0100 Organization: Einzeln auftretender Radfahrer Lines: 24 Message-ID: <19970219230214660250@q700.hf.org> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: q700.hf.org X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b3 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22959 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62153 comp.sys.mac.system:200957 Scott Hess wrote: > In article peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) writes: > hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) writes: > >Scott Hess wrote: > >As far as I recall, there _was_ a limit of about 6k files per volume. > > That must be a really old figure: I have a HFS-volume with more > than 25,000 files on it and there's no problem at all. I think the > limit is 32,767 files. > > Did I write that? Must have dropped a 4 somewhere, as I meant 64k > (2^16). > > Later, > -- > scott hess You didn't; Peter got the quote wrong. =8) hauke -- "It's never straight up and down" (DEVO) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.idt.net!enews.sgi.com!news.be.com!news1.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl9.crl.com!not-for-mail From: van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 21 Feb 1997 03:43:30 -0800 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 60 Message-ID: <5ek1p2$31n@crl9.crl.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <01bc171f$45774280$ceec1fcc@rthelen.ix.netcom.com> <32FF8CA1.33C1@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22960 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62154 comp.sys.mac.system:200958 Jonathan W. Hendry (Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com)) wrote: : Randy Thelen wrote: : > In the second case, Macintosh applications have traditionally stored their : > M68000 executable code in the resource fork. Which is, if you really think : > about, a pretty unusual thing. Further, the Macintosh 'fat' applications : > store their PowerPC data in the data fork of the application. Which, if you : > remember, broke some applications which actually stored their preference : > data in the data fork of themselves. : : NeXT's Mach allows a file to have multiple segments. Fat NeXT apps store : each architecture's binary in a different segment. Mach knows how to : execute the proper segment. Similar idea, different implementation. Mac PowerPC code can exist as code fragments, such as PEF containers, which may reside in resource forks and separate files as well. Not quite as symmetric as Mach, though, though I'd fashion it's an interesting exercise to extend the Mixed Mode Manager to Java code. (Isn't that what Sonata is up to?). Connectix overrode the stock 68K emulator handily enough. : One area where wrappers have an advantage over forks is in a : multi-platform : environment. Since NeXT applications consist of files and directories, : they can 'live' on any OS, so long as there are no filename limits (8.3, : etc.). : A NeXTSTEP application is runnable regardless of what kind of filesystem : it is stored on. It doesn't matter if the application server is a NeXT, : a Sun, a Linux box, or an NT box. : Conversely, it would be difficult (if not impossible) to run a Macintosh : application that is stored on a non-HFS disk. Er, I've run Mac apps mounted from a SCO Unix (SVR3.2) box. AFS running under CAP. Didn't connect the Unix disk _physically_ onto the IIci's SCSI bus, though; that would have been something. :-) Basically it mapped the resource and data forks _and_ the FInfo information in the HFS onto plain files and directories with no change to the clients. : IMHO, the Unix filesystem is like TCP/IP. The NeXT Workspace is like : HTTP, running : on top of TCP/IP. The Workspace implements functionality : that doesn't : exist in the Unix filesystem, much like Netscape implements : functionality : that doesn't exist in TCP/IP. : : The Mac filesystem is like a combination of TCP/IP and HTTP. It's an : interesting combination, and it adds some useful functionality, but at : the : cost of compatability with normal 'TCP/IP'. Anyone know how much difference is there (protocol-wise) between reading/writing to DOS floppies and reading/writing to NTFS/etc. volumes? Just curious, as Macs have little trouble with the former. Van -- Van Bagnol / van@crl.com / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing / Parachuting Hawksbill Capital Management / (707) 575-7077 / (707) 575-8334 fax "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" "An Error is not a Mistake...until you refuse to correct it." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsrelay.courtave.net!polo.iquest.com!news3.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl9.crl.com!not-for-mail From: van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 21 Feb 1997 06:04:34 -0800 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 35 Message-ID: <5eka1i$3qo@crl9.crl.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:200962 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62155 comp.sys.next.programmer:22961 [Snipped followup to c.s.m.p.codewarrior] (Charles William Swiger (cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu)) wrote: : Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & : Unix: File S.. by Peter Moller@dna.lth.se : >> Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the : >> timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file when : >> you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified version. : >> Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care about that : >> timestamp? : > : > Easily; quite often I try to figure out which version of a file or a : > program is the oldest and the created time stamp is very handy in those : > situations. : The last-modified timestamp serves that purpose better than the creation : timestamp does. If the file has never been editted, the last-modified : timestamp is identical to the creation timestamp. If the file has been : changed, the last-modified timestamp will tell you which version is : oldest whereas the creation timestamp does not. : Try again. How's this: I have 2 builds of an application. The one built later inadvertently introduces a subtle bug. Both copies are later patched in the field to correct a minor misspelling, but before the bug is discovered. Which version is which? The "older" file isn't necessarily the least recently modified. Van -- Van Bagnol / van@crl.com / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing / Parachuting Hawksbill Capital Management / (707) 575-7077 / (707) 575-8334 fax "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" "An Error is not a Mistake...until you refuse to correct it." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:51:51 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 136 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> <8n2mO2O00iWl05_J00@andrew.cmu.edu> <330B8D60.74C1@acm.org> <330CE9E4.60AB@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <330CE9E4.60AB@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4179 comp.sys.next.programmer:22962 comp.sys.mac.system:200975 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62162 [ ...followups redirected out of the programmer groups... ] Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 21-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > Well, unfortunately because of the way you have pursued the argument of > this thing, this would become a you're dodging the question... no you're > dodging the question match. Respond to the original comment which I've placed below quoted by "C>" and explain how I misread your comments: C> Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell C> it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of C> robust! You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial C> system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper C> encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS C> of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled C> within the process. ...with specific examples, or do not respond. > To get a more reasonable line, you should stop accusing others in these > groups of doing exactly what it is that you are doing. Precisely what is it that I am doing that I have accused other of doing? Be sure to provide specific examples that include direct and uneditted quotes from me that also include adequate context. > From your first response to what I said, you jumped straight in and > responded as if I was some kind of biased idiot. If you wish to demonstrate that you are actually not, in own your words, a 'biased idiot': Address the issue of whether "Unix is bloated" by reconciling your statement with the demonstrable facts of the size of Unix as provided by the 'du' command. [ ... ] >> If the OS itself blocks the process which asked for some service and >> waits for the user to tell it what to do when an error occurs, then >> neither the process being blocked nor any other process which depend on >> that blocked process to make progress will be able to do anything. > > The process is blocked because the OS has not been able to service its > request for a resource. Correct. > That is it. Incorrect. That single process may hold other resources which cannot be released while it's blocked, or that single process may generate information which other processes require. Blocking one process may impact many other processes, or even the entire operating system. > If the programmer does not want the process to block on a currently > unavailable resource, I have already told you how to cater for that > situation. This claim is untrue. I was the first person to bring up the concept of non-blocking I/O into this argument, as a scan through prior articles will demonstrate. > Processes do not block on each other. Processes most certainly can block on each other. The producer-consumer paradigm is one of the most basic examples of using remote procedure calls for IPC. > Processes block on resources. Deadlock occurs because one process locks a > resource, and a second process locks another resource. Then both processes > try to lock the resource that the other process already has locked. That's the simplest example of the necessary conditions for deadlock. There are many, mnay other ways of creating deadlock. > Your previous example was if one resource is unavailable, then all > processes will block on it. There were two resources in my example-- the feedback from the user is also a resource, albeit one that is not part of the computer and therefore is not under the control of the operating system. _That_ is the primary reason why having the OS block a process and wait for the user to tell it what to do is such a bad idea! The OS cannot determine or control when it will actually get a response, because it involves a resource which the OS does not control. > What I am saying is if resources under the control of a resource > manager are unavailable, it is the resource managers responsibility > to ensure availability, and to resolve contention on the resource. Deadlock prevention, and/or deadlock detection and resolution are very difficult issues that do not have graceful solutions. Either you require processes to request all of the resources they will need before reserving any resources (which is hard to do especially when the process may not be able to figure out what it will need), or you have to do antisocial things like killing off lots of processes when they do become deadlocked. Both solutions impose a lot of overhead and generally make the system less efficient because resources will be used less efficiently. It's why most operating systems ignore the issue of deadlock entirely and simply try to make sure they can provide enough resources so that deadlock doesn't happen very often. > It is bad policy for a resource manager just to hand an error back > to a running process. That is incorrect. There are plenty of circumstances where having the resource manager just hand errors back is the best policy that could be followed. While you've claimed to understand non-blocking I/O, Ian, you obviously don't understand that when the data isn't available yet, the OS "just hand[s] an error back to a running process"-- namely, EWOULDBLOCK. If you actually understood non-blocking I/O then you would realize that the central concept represents a direct contradiction of your assertion that it's "a bad policy for a resource manager...." I'm not going to bother with the rest of this noise-- somehow, I simply don't feel a need to refute more of Ian's assertions that I don't understand deadlock. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsrelay.courtave.net!polo.iquest.com!news3.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl9.crl.com!not-for-mail From: van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 21 Feb 1997 04:48:28 -0800 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 31 Message-ID: <5ek5is$3d9@crl9.crl.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22963 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62163 comp.sys.mac.system:200976 Jonathan W. Hendry (Jonathan W. Hendry (jon@subsequent.com)) wrote: : John 'kzin' Rudd wrote: : > Which would probably be mapped like "Photoshop.app -> Painter.app", : > and thus when you launched a file created by Photoshop, it would : > bring up Painter. :-} : : The problem with this arrangement is that it creates a potentially : large set of mappings, especially when you get into mapping to : both creator and type. It seems more useful to just map types, : and not creators. Hmmm...Let's say I want to change the preferences for several applications, each having a disparate set of preference parameters. Who/what knows which file goes to which application? Every one of the files is of type 'pref'. Another example: a file of type '%*\C4/' that's unrecognizable to just about everything in existence except to the one application that created it, for _it_ surely knows what to do with it. I take it you mean '...more useful to just map types, and not _just_ creators'? In any case I think it's useful to have both. I agree with you, though, that their _use_ must be implemented wisely. Van -- Van Bagnol / van@crl.com / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing / Parachuting Hawksbill Capital Management / (707) 575-7077 / (707) 575-8334 fax "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" "An Error is not a Mistake...until you refuse to correct it." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.com!usenet From: karish@well.com (Chuck Karish) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 17:56:51 GMT Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 16 Message-ID: <330de131.1384575934@news.mindspring.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <5ejud7$2pk@crl9.crl.com> Reply-To: karish@well.com NNTP-Posting-Host: ip38.mountain-view.ca.pub-ip.psi.net X-Server-Date: 21 Feb 1997 17:56:14 GMT X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22964 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62166 comp.sys.mac.system:200983 On 21 Feb 1997 02:45:59 -0800, van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol) wrote: > To have _multiple_ users _each_ with a different mapping preference for > individual files looks like it's a many-to-one correspondence. Seems > that can get unwieldy to manage, or at least one that begins to parallel > the filesystem for _each user_. (Everyone gets a Desktop database). You mean the way it was done in A/UX? Don't forget that Apple has a long history of supporting (and abandoning, but that's another story) Unix. These are not new issues. Some pretty good solutions have already been implemented. Chuck Karish karish@mindcraft.com Mindcraft, Inc. 415 323 9000 x117 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!uknet!yama.mcc.ac.uk!news.york.ac.uk!rog From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,c Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: 21 Feb 1997 18:33:55 GMT Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK. Lines: 53 Message-ID: <5ekpqj$am9@netty.york.ac.uk> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> Reply-To: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk NNTP-Posting-Host: talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk X-Newsreader: slrn (0.8.4) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22965 comp.sys.mac.system:201002 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62172 On Tue, 18 Feb 1997 14:11:14 +1100, Ian Joyner wrote: > In any case, I come back to the original point, that in most cases it > is inappropriate for the OS to send an error/exception back to processes > that are waiting on resources, without at least trying some recovery, > either automatic or with operator assistance first. If the OS doesn't > do this then you do not have a very robust OS. what sort of behaviour *is* appropriate in general for an OS when a process is waiting on resources ? lack of memory: the process needs the memory for something, presumably to accomplish the task it set out to do. perhaps the most robust approach is to put the process to sleep until there is some memory available. can't access a file files can represent many things. in a unix system, a file might represent a tape drive, a display device, a configuration file or a user's word process file. the actions to be taken should any of these resources be missing varies enormously, from "please go and put the tape in" to "you've mistyped the filename, please try again". is there anything that can more accurately judge the most appropriate action to take on missing resources than the application itself ? unlike memory, an application does not always *need* the resource in order to process correctly. in many cases, the resource will only be used if it is available (e.g. optional configuration scripts). so in order for the OS to take some sort of appropriate recovery action, the application must indicate to the OS the nature of the recovery action to be taken. but where do you stop ? is it really necessary (or even desirable) for an OS to have inbuilt knowledge of all the recovery actions needed for the conditions above ? surely all your suggestion boils down to is a need for a new system call: int calloperator(char *msg); that informs the operator of a particular condition, and waits for a human response. now what happens if somebody is remotely logged in at 2am and this happens ? it's not an easy problem, but i don't think you've got a solution either! cheers, rog. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!bznews.apple.com!nntp1.apple.com!mencjo.apple.com!user From: jm041536@fhda.edu (Joaquin Menchaca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 21 Feb 1997 19:08:01 GMT Organization: De Anza College Lines: 54 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mencjo.apple.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:190994 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20942 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15279 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58368 comp.sys.next.programmer:22966 comp.sys.next.misc:25149 comp.unix.machten:4112 comp.unix.osf.misc:4157 comp.os.mach:4104 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53829 In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > > Unless I've _greatly_ misread a variety of papers, microkernels are > coming into their own because we are asking entirely too much of our > monolithic kernels. The amount of effort it takes to add something > new to your monolithic kernel is often so great that you never get > around to it - and thus a microkernel can be more efficient in the > end. In essence, using a microkernel lets you get to a better design > for the system faster than a monolithic kernel, so it wins in the end. > > This is similar to the differences between object programming and > structured programming. Any given system _can_ be written in either. > And if you write a given system using the same design in either, the > structured version will generally be more efficient, because it > doesn't have the object version's overhead. The fly in the ointment > is that the structured version generally will never be written that > way, though, because it doesn't help you manage complexity well > enough. Object languages win in the end because though they might not > be faster for a given design, they let you modify the design more > easily. > This is very well said. That was my orginal concern about the decision about using a monolithic kernel from NeXTSTEP (OPENSTEP for Mach). I think technically this is a mistake. It may be outrageous to say this, but I think NuKernel of Copland is a better choice as it combines the best of Apple with the best of NeXT (OPENSTEP). Playing devil's advocate: For the business side, this could be the correct decision. Apple needs to ship a developement system hosting NeXT for developers. This needs to be done as soon as possible. Afterwards, the kernel may have more features, but the monolithic kernel was probaly chosen in order to have a little risks and be able to meet deadlines. This is a sound decision. Afterwards, there is no reason, Apple could upgrade their monolithic kernel (Mach 2.5++) to that of a better kernel like good microkernel and/or a distributed cluster based kernel to the highend publishing, server, and rendering markets. Just my thoughts. joaquin -- ############################################################### # My opinions are my own and not of any I work for. # ############################################################### # WARNING: DO NOT send unwarranted mail or SPAMS! Further # # proceedings of sending unwarranted email or spams will # # result in fines up to $1000 in damages. # ############################################################### #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!howland.erols.net!usc!news.isi.edu!usenet From: Stacy Marsella Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: confused about bundles Re: Sequence.app problems Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 09:13:56 -0800 Organization: USC Information Sciences Institute Lines: 28 Message-ID: <330DD7D4.6EBA@isi.edu> References: <5ej5ke$d58@alto.isi.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: alto.isi.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:28194 comp.sys.next.programmer:22967 Bundle experts, riddle me this.. Stacy Marsella wrote: > > I am having a problem with Sequence.app v0.9.8 (the version at CCRMA) > on a nextstation (nextstep3.2). The eventlist view does not work. > When I hilite a partname and select Eventlist from the Part menu > nothing happens except the following error message gets displayed in > the Console window: > Sequence[181]: Assertion failed: loadNIBSection: could not find data > > Any Suggestions or Clues? ... > Stacy Marsella I seem to have fixed this problem. It turns out EventList is a bundle and in the EventList.bundle subdirectory is its nib subdir, EventList.nib. Well I created a link to EventList.nib in the main directory of Sequence.app and now it is working. My question is why is it working? Do bundles have default areas in the app subdir where they are willing to look and for some reason loading on my machine is not looking there? Could there be absolute paths in the EventList code (I looked in the binary and didn't find any but I may have missed it)? Thanks, Stacy marsella@isi.edu #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!news.uoregon.edu!xmission!news From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype! Date: 20 Feb 1997 01:52:39 GMT Organization: Global Objects Inc. Lines: 37 Message-ID: <5egap7$beo@news.xmission.com> References: <33098bb9.30677792@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <5ec61p$iud@concorde.ctp.com> Reply-To: don@globalobjects.com NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) "Georg Tuparev" wrote: > If the application to be ported uses IXKit, Speaker & > Listener, and DBKit/EOF 1.0 it is pain in the a**** > > But what people are complaining is that the OS does not > include the List class. [...]. I'd agree with Georg on this point--List and HashTable aren't needed to move to OPENSTEP. If you really need to make a special subclass, then it gets to be a pain because NSArry/ NSDictionary, being class clusters, don't subclass well. But usually with minor improvements to a design, this can be worked around since a subclass isn't always the best answer. Perhaps we should include a List/HashTable implementation in the MiscKit for people who are hopelessly attached to that API? Those would be easier to subclass, at least, and we could probably do better than NeXT's original implementation if we tried hard enough... (I know these classes are is in OS/Mach for back compatability, but they will likely go away someday.) Depending upon the code you're converting, the conversion can get nasty, but I've not found lack of Lists and HashTables to be the nasty parts. OS-specific parts are often some of the worst offenders, followed by what Georg listed, with some of my own additions: IXKit, 3DKit--both of which the MiscKit is trying to rectify--DBKit, Speaker, Listener, and NXStreams. In the latter cases, OPENSTEP provides something better and I'd rather go through a little pain to use the improved base. -- Later, -Don Yacktman don@misckit.com My home page #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 21 Feb 1997 12:06:49 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191019 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20945 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15284 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58378 comp.sys.next.programmer:22969 comp.sys.next.misc:25150 comp.unix.machten:4113 comp.unix.osf.misc:4158 comp.os.mach:4105 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53841 "Lawson English" writes: >So, John, how's the Gratituous Insult business? Pretty good. I can always count on getting a reaction out of you! Still, I'm keeping the day job. >I mean, if you don't have enough time look up a word in a dictionary, but >DO have enough time to flame me, I gotta assume that yours was a >work-related post, right? And, if you think you've been flamed by me, then I can only surmise that you're not very experienced at net.flamage. -jcr #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 11:12:51 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62183 comp.sys.mac.system:201040 comp.sys.next.programmer:22970 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by Mike Connally@dial.pipex >> However, I can't NFS mount a remote fileserver on a Mac and be able to >> run Mac executables, because they require the out-of-band information >> stored in their resource forks which is not representable within the >> standard NFS/UFS filesystem paradigms. > > Wrong. How is what I said wrong? AppleSingle and AppleDouble are archive formats, and my NFS server cannot represent the Mac resource forks the way HPS does without using such a mechanism. It's entirely comparible to the situation where you've got a .tar or .tgz archive on a DOS machine, and that archive contains filenames which can't be represented correctly under DOS's 8.3 filename limitations. > NFS client software is available for MacOS from several > vendors, and any Mac file (documents or executables) can reside > on any NFS server platform and be used by the Mac transparently. I already said that I was aware that commercial products exist which provide so-called "transparent" NFS support; but you don't get that software with MacOS, you have to pay for it. I don't have to pay for NFS on a Unix box, and there are commercial NFS implementations for the PC at $40 per client (QVT), whereas the cheapest Mac NFS client is $250 per machine. (From the NFS FAQ, http://www.rtd.com/pcnfsfaq/SecA.html and SecZ.html) Furthermore, let's consider exactly how transparent things really are. What happens when you do have this commercial Mac NFS client software. If I save a document like plain old ASCII text file or some common WP format like MS-Word from a Mac onto the NFS server, do I get (a) a file that I can walk over to a non-Mac system and be able to use as-is, or do I get (b) an AppleSingle or AppleDouble file that I can't use as-is? -Chuck PS: We could ask the same questions for SMB/Samba and for AppleShare, too. Of course, the wasted space from the blocksize of the Mac HFS on big drives means Macs are inefficient fileservers. An NT/Server box running on a FAT filesystem would also be inefficient, but you have NTFS as an alternative. Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!news.tu-chemnitz.de!irz401!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!compuserve.com!news.production.compuserve.com!news From: Erik Sherman <104047.2607@CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,pgh.next-users,sdnet.next Subject: Reporter seeks NeXT users Date: 20 Feb 1997 00:25:44 GMT Organization: CompuServe, Inc. (1-800-689-0736) Lines: 7 Message-ID: <5eg5m8$bbp$2@mhadf.production.compuserve.com> I am writing an article for a national magazine on the experiences companies have had using the NeXT operating system. If you have used it in a corporation, non-profit, etc., I'd be interested in speaking with you. You can reach me at esherman@world.std.com.  Erik Sherman #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!newsgate.duke.edu!news-relay.ncren.net!newz.oit.unc.edu!gibbs!scocca From: scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu (Dave Scocca) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 21 Feb 1997 21:44:04 GMT Organization: The Jack Voigt Fan Club Lines: 22 Message-ID: <5el4v4$kj2$1@newz.oit.unc.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: gibbs.oit.unc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22972 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62187 comp.sys.mac.system:201056 In article , Andrew Brownsword wrote: \ The HFS file format divides a disk into 65,536 chunks (sectors, clusters, \ blocks, whatever) and keeps a bitmap of which ones are allocated. Hence \ there is a hard limit at 65536, and in practice it will be considerably \ lower than that because most files are more than 1 block, plus each \ directory and the boot blocks take some away as well. Not to mention the fact that the resource fork and the data fork _each_ require a minimum of one block, so in effect anything with a resource fork takes up two spaces. I use some programs (e.g. Alpha, Textures, BBEdit) which put resource forks on a lot of things, and so have a bunch of small text files each taking up 63K on my 2GB hard drive. D. -- * The Minstrel in the Gallery http://sunsite.unc.edu/scocca/ * * D. A. Scocca (scocca@gibbs.oit.unc.edu) "Heteroskedastic" * * "My love does not, cannot _make_ her happy. My love can only * * release in her the capacity to be happy." --J. Barnes * #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!psinntp!bbnews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 10:31:44 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 69 Message-ID: <330B8D60.74C1@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> <8n2mO2O00iWl05_J00@andrew.cmu.edu> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:201061 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62189 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4182 comp.sys.next.programmer:22973 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > >>> In any case, I come back to the original point, that in most cases it > >>> is inappropriate for the OS to send an error/exception back to processes > >>> that are waiting on resources, without at least trying some recovery, > >>> either automatic or with operator assistance first. If the OS doesn't > >>> do this then you do not have a very robust OS. > >> > >> Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell > >> it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of > >> robust! You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial > >> system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper > >> encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS > >> of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled > >> within the process. > > > > You are not only not reading correctly what I am saying, but in your > > misreadings are quite wrong. > > How am I misreading what you've said? Most of your responses show little understanding of what I have said, before you go into ultra defensive mode of Unix. > What is wrong with my statements? Your statements about both robustness and deadlock are wrong. Robustness is if an application calls a service, it expects the service to perform that function. If the service does not take responsibility to handle common error conditions, but just return an exception to the caller, that is the opposite of robust. If the service needs some operator input to help solve the situation then ask for it, don't just return an error to the application, because due to security it may not be able to access the system resources in the same way as the OS or operator. Your comments about deadlock also show lack of understanding. If a system resource becomes unavailable to all processes, then everything is going to lock up. You are defending the position that all these processes should be returned an error, when they have no control over the resource. This is also the opposite of robust. The case of deadlock may require some human intervention to prevent reoccurrence anyway, but what we are talking about here is not even a case of deadlock. > You've made vague assertions without anything to back your claims up. > I'm afraid that "proof by assertion" doesn't qualify as a legitimate > argument. Well, once again, Charles goes off the deep end into arguments about assertions, strawman arguments (of which he is the largest contributor), and stuff I really can't be bothered responding to. I notice he is a student attempting to complete his final year at Carnegie Mellion University. I suggest that he goes and learns something, instead of wasting time flaming on the net, and come back after he has learnt his lessons and gained much more experience. [Rest of abuse deleted] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.sgi.com!news.tamu.edu!news From: stephen@ccc1.tamu.edu (Stephen Johnson) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: compiling multi-binary? Date: 19 Feb 1997 23:45:23 GMT Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas Lines: 6 Message-ID: <5eg3aj$61q@news.tamu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ccc1.tamu.edu X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01 How do I compile for multiple platforms on a single platform? I'm compiling on a NeXT but need it for an Intel, also. Any pointers would be helpful, Stephen #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!eanews1!plnews.pl.unisys.com!not-for-mail From: Ian Joyner Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 11:18:44 +1100 Organization: Unisys Lines: 146 Message-ID: <330CE9E4.60AB@acm.org> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> <8n2mO2O00iWl05_J00@andrew.cmu.edu> <330B8D60.74C1@acm.org> Reply-To: i.joyner@acm.org NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.146.252.190 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (WinNT; I) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62192 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4183 comp.sys.next.programmer:22975 comp.sys.mac.system:201072 Charles William Swiger wrote: > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 20-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org > >>>> Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell > >>>> it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of > >>>> robust! You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial > >>>> system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper > >>>> encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS > >>>> of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled > >>>> within the process. > >>> > >>> You are not only not reading correctly what I am saying, but in your > >>> misreadings are quite wrong. > >> > >> How am I misreading what you've said? > > > > Most of your responses show little understanding of what I have said, > > before you go into ultra defensive mode of Unix. > > You didn't answer the question; you simply rephrased what you previously > said as quoted by ">>>". If you aren't going to provide a specific > example of how I've misread your comments, fine-- go right ahead and > continue dodging the question. Well, unfortunately because of the way you have pursued the argument of this thing, this would become a you're dodging the question... no you're dodging the question match. To get a more reasonable line, you should stop accusing others in these groups of doing exactly what it is that you are doing. From your first response to what I said, you jumped straight in and responded as if I was some kind of biased idiot. I don't take it personally, as I have noticed your responses to others have showed a similar line of discourtesy. There are interesting things to be said in this thread, but unfortunately, you continue to make it extremely boring by jumping in and arguing about methods of argument. > >> What is wrong with my statements? > > > > Your statements about both robustness and deadlock are wrong. Robustness > > is if an application calls a service, it expects the service to perform > > that function. If the service does not take responsibility to handle common > > error conditions, but just return an exception to the caller, that is > > the opposite of robust. If the service needs some operator input to help > > solve the situation then ask for it, don't just return an error to the > > application, because due to security it may not be able to access the > > system resources in the same way as the OS or operator. > > If the OS itself blocks the process which asked for some service and > waits for the user to tell it what to do when an error occurs, then > neither the process being blocked nor any other process which depend on > that blocked process to make progress will be able to do anything. The process is blocked because the OS has not been able to service its request for a resource. That is it. If the programmer does not want the process to block on a currently unavailable resource, I have already told you how to cater for that situation. Processes do not block on each other. Processes block on resources. Deadlock occurs because one process locks a resource, and a second process locks another resource. Then both processes try to lock the resource that the other process already has locked. Your previous example was if one resource is unavailable, then all processes will block on it. What I am saying is if resources under the control of a resource manager are unavailable, it is the resource managers responsibility to ensure availability, and to resolve contention on the resource. It is bad policy for a resource manager just to hand an error back to a running process. It's like Basil Fawlty saying to the person at the desk "Hurry up, there are people waiting." > If any of these blocked processes is supposed to perform the action of > asking for user intervention and returning the user's response, the > system will be deadlocked. No, you don't understand deadlock. Once the first process clears, all other processes will also clear. How is a system level service going to block on a user process? It just won't happen by design. Not only do you not understand deadlock, but you don't understand that it is irrelevant to what I am saying. > > Your comments about deadlock also show lack of understanding. If a > > system resource becomes unavailable to all processes, then everything is > > going to lock up. > > That's correct. How do you get from this statement to my supposed "lack > of understanding"? > > > You are defending the position that all these processes > > should be returned an error, when they have no control over the > > resource. > > Correct. Processes do not have "control" over system resources; what is > what the operating system is for. Now you are close to understanding! > The OS manages system resources by implementing serialization mechanisms > for non-preemptible resources like tty's, printers, the network, disk > I/O to individual files, and so forth, and by implementing means of > preempting resources like the CPU which can be preempted (otherwise > known as preemptive multitasking). > > > This is also the opposite of robust. The case of deadlock may require > > some human intervention to prevent reoccurrence anyway, but what we > > are talking about here is not even a case of deadlock. > > Having the OS attempt to ask a user what to do when errors occur most > certainly can lead to deadlock. I can demonstrate examples of > interdependent processes on real-world operating systems which would > satisfy the four necessary conditions for deadlock. > > For example, let's consider NEXTSTEP's WindowServer. Say the > WindowServer tries to blit a bunch of bits via a DMA transfer handled by > a video driver within the kernel, and the DMA transfer encounters an > error. If the OS blocks the WindowServer due to the error and then > tries to tell the user an error occured and ask what to do about it by > having the WindowServer attempt to pop up an alert panel, the system is > going to deadlock because the WindowServer is already blocked trying to > draw and will never get unblocked in order to draw that alert panel. > > Therefore, the system is deadlocked. This doesn't sound like a very well designed system. Some errors will be in the category of lower level. Such primitive errors should by-pass standard mechanisms for display, if there is the possibility that the standard mechanism has become unusable. This is not a new problem, and OSs are already designed for this possibility. However, as usual your example is irrelevant to my original point that resource managers provided as part of the OS should take more responsibility to resolve resource problems before returning exceptions to clients. This greatly simplifies the client programming. Now I suppose you will respond with more accusations of bias, strawman arguments, dodging the question, etc. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ian Joyner | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are Internet email: | for a kingdom, the gentler | personal and are i.joyner@acm.org | gamester is the soonest winner" | not Unisys | William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment ------------------------------------------------------------------------ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.253.4.5!news.bridge.net!news.this.com!news1.best.com!idiom.com!idiom.com!jcr From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 20 Feb 1997 17:21:57 -0800 Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5eidi8$9nt@news3.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191069 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20947 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15291 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58405 comp.sys.next.programmer:22976 comp.sys.next.misc:25152 comp.unix.machten:4114 comp.unix.osf.misc:4159 comp.os.mach:4106 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53854 "Lawson English" writes: >John Kheit said: >>jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote: >>> You're going to be a Lawyer! You should know that the correct >>> word isn't"Monolithicness", it's "monolithicity!" >> >>Actually, neither show up in websters. >Monolithicism, on the other hand, does. Webster's 3rd New International >Dictionary: >Monolithicism -the state of being monolithic. Well, the thirty-day killfile entry expired, and what do I see right away? An article by Lawson, demonstrating once again, that he has far more time on his hands than I do. -jcr PS: So, Lawson: Any luck on the GX advocacy fight? #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!worldnet.att.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.netset.com!ppp007.dialup.cmh.netset.com!user From: tbrown@netset.com (Ted Brown) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 23:57:34 -0500 Organization: NetSet Internet Services -- Columbus, Ohio Lines: 51 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp007.dialup.cmh.netset.com X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62195 comp.sys.mac.system:201088 comp.sys.next.programmer:22977 In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: >The problem is, I couldn't care less about a multiuser operating system. I >bought my Mac for use by a single person: me. With the exception of server >machines, every single Mac -- heck, every single *personal computer* -- >I've ever seen has been used by one person at a time. The majority of them >have been used by a single person, period; if you leave out the CS lab >machines, that becomes an overwhelming majority. Apple seems to think that there are 2-3 users/mac. I too bought my Mac for use by a single person: me. But, it happens to be regularly used by friends, my father, and visitors. It doesn't matter if the machine is used by one person at a time, it matters that more than one person uses the machine. A multi-user machine can adapt itself to the current user (or multiple needs per user, like development, gaming, and browsing). With a multi-user OS, I could leave my friends/visitors (for one it's the only time he touches a computer), w/o worrying that they'll accidentally delete things, mess with private files, change some configuration, etc. I've owned a NeXT Cube, I'll welcome Apple making additions for multiple users. Apple is known for getting the little things right and making a system that works as a whole. NeXT did the same thing. I'll restate something that other NeXT users have said -- *use* OpenStep before you work yourself into a tizzy. Sure OpenStep uses file extentions, but somehow it didn't rub me the wrong way like they did on Win 3.1, and still do on Win 95 (though less so now that I have long file names). Apple won't be succeed/fail on something like CREATOR/TYPE codes. Resource forks are nice, but are nothing when compared to an .app directory and .nib files. Nor did the concept of putting applications where "the OS wanted them", rub me the wrong way. I tend to put apps in my Applications folder on my Mac anyway. I don't really like to spend time figuring out where to put stuff, I'd rather just throw them in the default location. You mention that it's the "macintosh way" to let the user decide where to put stuff. I'll counter that it's the macintosh way to allow the user to forget/ignore mundane things like "where do I install this app". I usually want to put *data* files where I want them, rather than Applications. I put aliases to apps where I want quick access to them. All of this I can do under NeXTStep. Again, I think that you are looking at NeXTStep as pieces, rather than the gestalt. -- Ted Brown tbrown@netset.com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!newsfeed.acns.nwu.edu!news.acns.nwu.edu!legume186142.nuts.nwu.edu!user From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:36:01 -0600 Organization: Northwestern University Lines: 34 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: legume186142.nuts.nwu.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191079 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20948 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15293 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58410 comp.sys.next.programmer:22978 comp.sys.next.misc:25153 comp.unix.machten:4115 comp.unix.osf.misc:4160 comp.os.mach:4107 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53865 In article <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) wrote: > NuKernel should have been scrapped before > a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for certain, > "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. To pick a nit, this has nothing to do with NuKernel, but with the higher levels of Copland. I'd rephrase your statement: *Copland* should have been scrapped .... what you said. NuKernel was actually a pretty nice kernel, at least as far as I could tell from the white paper released way back in 1995. It was the rest of Copland that sucked, specifically the crazy requirement that any task which drew in a window or interacted with the user had to live in the blue box, and hence could not benefit from preemptive scheduling or protected memory, which in turn led to the even crazier notion that apps would be factored into "server" and "UI" tasks which communicated via Apple events. Yuck. Rhapsody is a much better idea. I think Rhapsody as OpenStep on NuKernel would have been just fine, but would have taken longer to develop than Rhapsody as OpenStep on Mach. This time to market factor is why Mach was chosen, I believe. Due to ignorance, I have no opinion on the relative purely technical merits of Mach vs. NuKernel. -- John Norstad #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!line033.nwm.mindlink.net!user From: Sword@mindlink.net (Andrew Brownsword) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 21:00:41 -0800 Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada Lines: 35 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <199702182327301079516@q700.hf.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: line033.nwm.mindlink.net X-newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22979 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62196 comp.sys.mac.system:201095 In article , Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org wrote: >peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) wrote: >> hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) writes: >> >Scott Hess wrote: >> >As far as I recall, there _was_ a limit of about 6k files per volume. >> >> That must be a really old figure: I have a HFS-volume with more than 25,000 >> files on it and there's no problem at all. I think the limit is 32,767 >files. >> > The HFS file format divides a disk into 65,536 chunks (sectors, clusters, blocks, whatever) and keeps a bitmap of which ones are allocated. Hence there is a hard limit at 65536, and in practice it will be considerably lower than that because most files are more than 1 block, plus each directory and the boot blocks take some away as well. The other unfortunate side effect is that if you have a disk of 2^63 bytes, the smallest possible file is 2^47 bytes. This is funny because it is so extreme. The reality that a 9 gig drive has a minimum file size of 144K isn't so funny. A new file system is long overdue for performance, flexibility and efficiency reasons. The file system Apple was building for Copland looked pretty impressive, and was fully multi-threaded and format independant. Hopefully they can salvage something from that effort, but anything is better than the current file system (except DOS, mind you). -- Andrew Brownsword Software Engineer "What I said here is what I said, not what anybody else said. I'm speaking for just me, myself, and I." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.238.120.21!jump.net!grunt.dejanews.com!not-for-mail Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 12:51:14 -0600 From: Benoit.Marchant@questintl.com Subject: EOF2 and DO troubles Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Message-ID: <856464472.8723@dejanews.com> Reply-To: Benoit.Marchant@questintl.com Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service X-Article-Creation-Date: Thu Feb 20 18:47:54 1997 GMT X-Originating-IP-Addr: 145.17.100.1 (gatekeeper.homecare.com) X-Http-User-Agent: OmniWeb/2.5-beta-2 OWF/1.0 via proxy gateway CERN-HTTPD/3.0 libwww/2.17 X-Authenticated-Sender: Benoit.Marchant@questintl.com Lines: 46 Hi, I have a strange thing. I have a framework with me enterprise objects and eomodel, and an application based on this framework. I order to access appController which owns editigContext etc ..., I made appController a root object of a NSConnection and register it from my enterprise objects. So in a class method in my EO's framework, I implemented a fetch to retrieve special instances by fetching with an editingContext obtained by sending a message to the proxy on appController. It works, my method return a correct NSArray with instances in it. I my application I get this array and extract an instance of it named for exemple aFamily. If I add it in a relation of an eo just created with the same eoeditingContext as one used for the fetch before (which is obtained by [appController editingContext], the application go in a a spin when I execute [editingContext saveChanges] and finally crashed. If I make another variable aFaultFamily by aFaultFamily = [editingContext faultForGlobalID:[aFamily globalID] editingContext:editingContext] and insert it in the relation, it works like a charm. If I make a po of both instances, I get same results po aFaultFamily (gdb) po aFamily If I make print I get print aFamily $1 = (class IngredientFamily *) 0xbba6ac (gdb) print aFaultFamily $2 = (class IngredientFamily *) 0xc2c77c Does someone could explain me what is the reason ? Is it not recommended to use editingContext over NSConnection ? What are other solutions to keep business rules in the EO's framework insted of doing categories in the app when it's necessary to make fetch from class methods ? Thanks in advance for any help and ligth !! Benoit Marchant -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====----------------------- http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!130.235.20.4!news.lth.se!merkurius.lu.se!peterm From: peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 21 Feb 97 07:28:46 GMT Organization: Lund University Lines: 20 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> <5ej0nn$6t6@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ulfrun.dna.lth.se X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #7 (NOV) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22981 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62206 comp.sys.mac.system:201113 altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) writes: >Here's an example of why I can't stand the Mac's HFS file system. I just bought >the Sonata font from Adobe. Adobe told me the Mac version would work with >NEXTSTEP. So, I got the suckah, and put it on a Power Mac. I then used Fetch >to send it over the network to my PC running NEXTSTEP 3.3. Fetch allowed me to >pick Mac Binary II or BinHex. I tried both. When Opener on the NeXT side opens Which version of Fetch was that? Fetch has to my knowledge always had the option of 1) AppleSignle, 2) AppleDouble, 3) Raw data and 4) BinHex. Of these, you should of course use Raw data. I admit this is kinda confusing, but this is the way it will be until all computer systems have the same kind of file system (which I guess/hope will never happend) *or* well thought out "Helper System" than can aid you when "talking" (in a wide since) to another computer system. I guess we need C3PO :-) -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter.Moller@dna.lth.se, System Manager @ DNA & LUDAT Department of Computer Science, Lund Institute of Technology Box 118, S-221 00 LUND, Sweden, tfn +46 -46 10 41 56, fax +46 -46 13 10 21 #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.platinum.com!news From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 22 Feb 1997 08:13:08 GMT Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation Lines: 80 Message-ID: <5em9qk$3eu@news.platinum.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.105.80 X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(n) Cc: tokarek@students.uiuc.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191106 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20949 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15295 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58431 comp.sys.next.programmer:22982 comp.sys.next.misc:25154 comp.unix.machten:4116 comp.unix.osf.misc:4161 comp.os.mach:4108 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53880 In it appeared that Ryan Tokarek wrote: > On 22 Feb 1997, Gary W. Longsine wrote: > > > In it appeared that Joaquin > > Menchaca wrote: > > > In article , shess@one.net (Scott > > > Hess) wrote: > > > > > > > > This is very well said. That was my original concern about the decision > > > about using a monolithic kernel from NeXTSTEP (OPENSTEP for Mach). I > > > think technically this is a mistake. It may be outrageous to say this, > > > but I think NuKernel of Copland is a better choice as it combines the best > > > of Apple with the best of NeXT (OPENSTEP). > > > > Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before > > a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for certain, > > "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. > No, no. You haven't a clue. > > _Every_ process was to be protected under Copland with NuKernel. The > collection of tasks that ran as one large task (the compatibility box) and > was run internally with cooperative multitasking was protected (CMT > because of the continued use of a non-reentran GUI). No OS task nor any > other task could read from or write to anything in the compatibility box. [munch] > You were mistaken. Although you are technically correct in the strictest sense, when you say that every process would have had protected memory, you offer a misleading claim about the worthiness of Copland and the NuKernel, and fail to acknowledge the ugly truth: Copland would have forced ordinary user applications, even brand spanking new ones for MacOS 8, to reside in the same memory space. Only apps specially written could get their own memory space, and the only apps eligible for such special treatment were those without a GUI. Who thought that was a good idea? Who in the hell thought was a good idea? I don't even know thought was a good idea. Although I am perhaps guilty of being a bit inflammatory, I am nonetheless right. You are defending the (indefensible) technological equivalent of Windows 95, which as you probably know is a horrible, unstable, hunk of junk. Copland would have been just like it. I am *sooo* glad that usenet is not deciding the architecture of Rhapsody. Popular vote in Mac.advocacy would have picked: <> NuKernel <> Punt UNIX (in favor of what? nobody ever said) <> MacOS GUI (long may it wither) <> GX (punt DPS) <> Open Transport <> The MacOS filesystem Now, this looks like Pink/Taligent/Copland, to me: Over 5 years. Nearly 1/2 a billion dollars. Still no OS. In the meantime, NeXT delivered to market several iterations of a rock-solid modern operating system, and premier developer tools, which had all the features that both Apple and Microsoft failed to produce. Apple has finally caught a bout of the clue, in buying NeXT and making good use of the NeXT technology & talent. I only wish they had merged two years ago. /gary -- Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS, PLATINUM Technologies, Inc. | \ o.O| Objective-C: l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail | =(_)= (Can i have his spam?) & MIME) |. U Elegance is Relevant. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in2.uu.net!204.253.4.5!news.bridge.net!news.this.com!news1.best.com!idiom.com!usenet From: "Joseph A. Woo" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 02:00:21 -0800 Organization: Wootech Corporation Lines: 9 Message-ID: <330D7233.CE1@wootech.com> References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <330CEC81.5A34@acm.org> Reply-To: jwoo@wootech.com NNTP-Posting-Host: orf.wootech.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; I; PPC) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:201140 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4188 comp.sys.next.programmer:22983 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62208 For those of you that are posting this thread to the PowerPlant newsgroup, please stop. This newsgroup is for PowerPlant, and not Next or UNIX. Thanks. Joseph A. Woo Sr. Software Engineer Wootech Corporation #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.platinum.com!news From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 22 Feb 1997 07:04:21 GMT Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation Lines: 63 Message-ID: <5em5pl$3eu@news.platinum.com> References: <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.105.80 X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(n) Cc: english@primenet.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191136 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20951 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15300 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58443 comp.sys.next.programmer:22984 comp.sys.next.misc:25155 comp.unix.machten:4117 comp.unix.osf.misc:4163 comp.os.mach:4110 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53899 In it appeared that "Lawson English" wrote: > Gary W. Longsine said: >> > >Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before > >a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for > certain, > >"special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. > No, only "special" processes would NOT be protected: those that were > sitting in the Blue Box. Bzzzt! Thank you for playing, Contestant Two! Tell him about the consolation prize, Bob! Our second contestant will receive, as consolation for playing, and losing, "You Bet Your Mission Critical Custom Application" -- two quotations! These bits of knowledge hail from chapter 3, (Address Spaces and Memory Protection), of the detailed, well-written, Copland-friendly and authoritative description of the mercifully killed Copland project -- "MacOS 8 Revealed: A Technical Tour of the New Mac OS", published by Apple Press, written by Tony Francis... " Our contestant will also be given a small box, with an ant in it, and some left-over pizza that we have back-stage... "MacOS 8 assigns all cooperative programs to a shared address space. [...] These applications, by the way, are cooperative programs because they present a human interface." and later in the chapter... "If you're a developer, you can begin preparing to take advantage of multiple address spaces by determining whether some portion of your product benefits from the extra protection afforded by a separate address space. If so, you should plan to implement this portion as a server program." The dirty little secret of MacOS 8 was that, under Copland's NuKernel, [x] All ordinary applications (not just System 7 apps), by default, run in what we now think of as the "Blue Box" -- a single address space, where they are free to trample each other. [x] All applications with a GUI interface swim in the community memory pool. [x] As a developer, you must go out of your way to design server processes for applications that, "could benefit" from protected memory [x] Even Windows NT has a better memory protection architecture than that I stand by my proposition that, were I the highly paid Sr. VP at Apple in charge of Copland, sitting in a room with a bunch of engineers who described this kind of architecture to me, as the foundation of our new OS, I would have fired the idiots on the spot. I normally don't get quite this harsh, but really folks, there is not much room for argument here. Copland, kernel and all, was fundamentally mis-architected, and even if there exist interesting ideas in the project, it is very doubtful that any of the actual code will ever be of use to anyone writing a modern OS. /gary -- Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS, PLATINUM Technologies, Inc. | \ o.O| Objective-C: l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail | =(_)= (Can i have his spam?) & MIME) |. U Elegance is Relevant. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!newsserv.uni-bayreuth.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!news.cis.ohio-state.edu!nntp.sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Thu, 20 Feb 1997 17:57:16 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 48 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: po6.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22985 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62210 comp.sys.mac.system:201144 Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 20-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File S.. by John Moreno@interpath.co > ] The answer is whichever file was modified last, and can be answered > ] using the last-modified timestamp; the creation timestamp isn't > ] needed. > > My point was there but I apparently didn't make it clear enough: You > are doing some ad hoc data acquisition and analysis - you do your first > test and save it, then you do your second test and save it. You play > with both of them a bit and then go home, where you come down with > pneumonia and are out of the office for two weeks. When you come back > to the office you can remember which test you did first but not what you > named the file. That one's a bit of a stretch tho, so how about this - > you have a program that automatically saves (thereby changing the > modification date) whenever the file is even viewed. Both of those sound a little contrived, I'm afraid. I've done random bits of data acquisition and you pretty much always put a date/timestamp within the data file itself. As for the always-saves-even-unchanged program, I'd say that it was simply broken. :-) Basicly, my claim is that the only circumstances that I can think of where I would really care about the distinction between the last-modified and creation timestamps are when I'd want to use a complete revision control system..... >] Come to think of it, perhaps Apple will provide this functionality by >] making Rhapsody's system loader understand the AppleDouble format >] directly as an executable format. It's rather similar to the way >] NEXTSTEP handles the Mach-O and MAB (FAT binary) executable >] formats.... > > I'd think you'd want to use the AppleSingle format, but other that, > yeah. What's really important isn't the format of the file, but that the > part of the system that transfers files over the network knows about it, > and that all of the information is there. [ ... ] Agreed. And doing so would ease some of the requirements for the NFS and other fileserver implementations which have to interact with the MacOS or Rhapsody. -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer3.itd.umich.edu!news.eecs.umich.edu!inferno.eecs.umich.edu!user From: wagnerer@umich.edu (Eric Wagner) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 02:31:21 -0500 Organization: University of Michigan EECS Lines: 96 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: inferno.eecs.umich.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22986 comp.sys.mac.system:201146 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62211 In article <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net>, phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote: *Charles William Swiger wrote: * *] Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT *& *] Unix: File S.. by John Moreno@interpath.co *] > ] Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving the *] > ] timestamp of the creation date of the original version of a file *] > ] when you don't actually have the original file-- just the modified *] > ] version. Can you provide a real-world example of why you'd care *] > ] about that timestamp? *] > *] > A very simple and quit answer is when you have two files with *] > basically the same information and have modified both since their *] > creation and want to know which file is newer. *] *] The answer is whichever file was modified last, and can be answered *] using the last-modified timestamp; the creation timestamp isn't *] needed. *] *] Again, that doesn't answer my question. * *My point was there but I apparently didn't make it clear enough: You *are doing some ad hoc data acquisition and analysis - you do your first *test and save it, then you do your second test and save it. You play *with both of them a bit and then go home, where you come down with *pneumonia and are out of the office for two weeks. When you come back *to the office you can remember which test you did first but not what you *named the file. That one's a bit of a stretch tho, so how about this - *you have a program that automatically saves (thereby changing the *modification date) whenever the file is even viewed. * *] [ ... ] *] >] Such a system could rely on just the file extension if the Mac-like *] >] creator/filetype attributes are not available or are not recognized *] >] [consider a file that has been FTP'ed or is being accessed via a *] >] remote filesystem like NFS, AFS, etc], but could also pay attention *] >] to the Mac attributes if they are available and valid. That seems *] >] to combine the desirable features without changing the way either *] >] current Mac users or current NEXTSTEP users like to have things *] >] work.... *] > *] > I've seen this "accessed via a remote filesystem" argument used *] > before and have never really understood it. If the computer at the *] > other end is a Rhapsody machine then I'd expect the additional *] > information to be passed along, if it isn't a R.M. then what kind of *] > file is being accessed where the person getting it doesn't know what *] > it is? *] *] You're missing the point. When I access a file via a remote *] filesystem, I shouldn't need to care whether it's a R.M or not. I *] should be able to use any type of fileserver without having problems, *] and I should be able to run executables directly off of the *] fileserver. *] *] Come to think of it, perhaps Apple will provide this functionality by *] making Rhapsody's system loader understand the AppleDouble format *] directly as an executable format. It's rather similar to the way *] NEXTSTEP handles the Mach-O and MAB (FAT binary) executable *] formats.... * *I'd think you'd want to use the AppleSingle format, but other that, *yeah. What's really important isn't the format of the file, but that the *part of the system that transfers files over the network knows about it, *and that all of the information is there. About a week ago Jonathan *Hendry posted saying that "it would be difficult (if not impossible) to *run a Macintosh application that is stored on a non-HFS disk". This *sounds plausible but, as I said in my reply to him, since all of the *information associated with a file is transfered to a PC disk when you *copy a file back and forth it seems to me that if that was the case it *would be a failure of the system since it should be possible. I *immediately tested this by inserting a DOS formatted disk into my drive *and copying a small application to it and then trying to execute it. It *worked flawlessly. There is no reason that the same thing couldn't *happen over a network connection and in fact I would expect it to work *today over a properly setup network. * Actually such a system already works at the Univ of Michigan. We use the afs file system which esentially puts all user accounts and commercial software into one file structure that acts as the basis for the computers on campus. Mac's access afs through the chooser and use any of the files they have just used on there unix account. In fact I make extensive use of this myself. I have a telnet window open to a computational server that saves its output to a file and a graphics program on the mac both accessing the same file system displaying the data. Works pretty well in my case. Plus I like CodeWarriers IDE on the mac to write the programs (love that color coding) and a quick make on the comp server side compiles the program and runs it. The only complaint I have is that the icons for the unix files when seen from the mac side are quite ugly. Eric #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!enews.sgi.com!news.be.com!news1.crl.com!nexp.crl.com!crl9.crl.com!not-for-mail From: van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Date: 21 Feb 1997 02:45:59 -0800 Organization: CRL Dialup Internet Access (415) 705-6060 [Login: guest] Lines: 120 Message-ID: <5ejud7$2pk@crl9.crl.com> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: crl9.crl.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22987 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62213 comp.sys.mac.system:201152 (M (anti_email_spam@real.address.in.sig)) wrote: : In <5ddtsg$oba$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote: : > In <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> John Siracusa wrote: Having worked with MacOS and NeXTSTEP, and lurked in the BeOS newsgroups since their inception, it seems that everyone here has some valid points as well as preconceptions about what the "other side" does regarding the treatment of formatted vs freeform data in files. The same arguments came up in discussions of how Be's filesystem should be structured. Lemme give some of my observations: 1. The use of directories to encapsulate and structure n-fork data sets ("files") seems to me to be a rather elegant concept. One architecture, one API, rather than the split filesystem / resource map database and APIs that the Mac's HFS currently uses. Look at how the Finder displays custom icons: hidden "Icon\r" files for directories, 'ICN#' -16455 resources for files. It would demand performance from the filesystem at least better than that in the current Resource Manager. 2. There still needs to be a class of "raw data fork" to contain what is ubiquitously "default" data, for example, vanilla text sans the font information/window positions/icon images, etc. 3. The type of a document is not equivalent to how the user works with it. For *.c or *.html files the user may in different circumstances launch different IDEs, browsers, or editors, for different files with the same extension or even for the same file at different times. A configuration file, for example, _can_ be text but that doesn't preclude other apps from manipulating it more effectively/safely. 4. To have a mapping between documents and applications to launch for them at the granularity of individual files implies information at potential- ly one-to-one correspondence with the files. (e.g., filename suffixes or type/creator codes.) To have _multiple_ users _each_ with a different mapping preference for individual files looks like it's a many-to-one correspondence. Seems that can get unwieldy to manage, or at least one that begins to parallel the filesystem for _each user_. (Everyone gets a Desktop database). I suppose they can inherit the global mapping and simply override. 5. Tacking filename extensions to type the data in a file IMHO never seemed that elegant, but it _is_ a common convention (*.c, *.h, *.html). It's okay when it coincides with the user's level of abstraction _but_ it invades the namespace when it doesn't. "Thoughts on Foo Design.rtf" looks funnier than "Thoughts on Foo Design". (Affixes are useful but as a user I'd rather think in terms of content as opposed to syntax, especially if it's a compound document anyway.) 6. The ability to move/rename documents/applications in the filesystem and for things still to be able to find each other and work, is an expected feature for many Mac users, and is part of the Mac experience. (_Some_ files/folders are immovable/renameable but they are few and I don't think are considered a problem.) Renaming "System Folder" to "Engine Room" and moving it into "Etc", moving software from "Stuff to Evaluate" to "My Applications" and "Discard after Easter" folders, and renaming applications is no more effort than rearranging a clothes closet. However, the robustness needed to have documents itinerant and still locatable might conflict with the efficiency needed for (1). 7. It's often better to think of files/documents as _objects_ anyway. Just as there can be several 'accessor methods' to an object's internal variables, there can be several front-ends to edit a config file. It shouldn't matter to the user whether it's in binary, text, or Swahili, as long as there are safe enough methods to access it for the casual user and powerful enough ones for the knowledgeable user. If you think about it _all_ documents (even textfiles) are accessed by a UI "method" of one form or another. The base method for accessing a text document is simply Edit / SimpleText / whatever. (It's not as if you're directly manipulating the magnetic polarities on the platter.) (You _would_ have a general fork editor if SimpleText and ResEdit were rolled into a single application. Well okay, BBEdit and Resorcerer. :-) The key is that if configuration data really _is_ text but its integrity requires special formatting or syntax, it simply shouldn't be openable by default with simple text editors -- just as an internal variable of an object shouldn't be accessed directly. If you don't want people to open things with a plain screwdriver, don't attach the cover with plain screws! A standard _structured_ text format, such as NeXT's PropertyList, or Apple's MCF, or even AppleScript, would make textual config files easier to handle, though I suppose for performance/space/maintain- ability it's really up to the implementation. One could just as well do it with PPobs. 8. The primary GUI "shell" can enforce the interface consistency. In the Finder I can double-click the System file and "look inside" the system sounds, or do the same to the Users & Groups control panel to "see" the users. They both look and act like folder windows even though one is a control panel and the other the system file. A ResEdit look-alike can be written to work with resource-fork-like directories. Protocols can (and have) been written to make Unix filesystems map to HFS's data+resource+FInfo file forks. I remember in comp.sys.next.* that someone had basically replicated the functionality of the NeXT Workspace Manager in a relatively modest number of lines of code. Would it be that hard to put a Finder "shell" in the yellow box? After all, Greg Landweber managed to build "Greg's Buttons", a File Viewer lookalike for the Mac. Van -- Van Bagnol / van@crl.com / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing / Parachuting Hawksbill Capital Management / (707) 575-7077 / (707) 575-8334 fax "Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" "An Error is not a Mistake...until you refuse to correct it." #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!bingnews.binghamton.edu!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 23:19:19 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 49 Message-ID: <5eap1n$c6r@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:201161 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62215 comp.sys.next.programmer:22988 Charles William Swiger wrote: > Peter Moller@dna.lth.se writes: > > SomeoneProbablyNamed Charles Swiger wrote: > >> Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving > >> the timestamp of the creation date of the original version of > >> a file when you don't actually have the original file-- just > >> the modified version. Can you provide a real-world example > >> of why you'd care about that timestamp? > > > > Easily; quite often I try to figure out which version of a file > > or a program is the oldest and the created time stamp is very > > handy in those situations. > > The last-modified timestamp serves that purpose better than the > creation timestamp does. If the file has never been editted, > the last-modified timestamp is identical to the creation timestamp. > If the file has been changed, the last-modified timestamp will > tell you which version is oldest whereas the creation timestamp > does not. This will probably not be a convincing enough example, I just know that I've found this useful at times on MTS: When talking about timestamps, you are not always comparing different versions of the same file. Sometimes you are comparing unquestionably different files, which are related somehow. In that case, it can be useful to notice that the creation date of one set of files are all about the same, even though their last-modified time is different. Back in the world of Macs, I can tell you that there's a very very useful program called "Keyserver" (www.sassafras.com) which takes advantage of the creation date info. It ignores the lastdatachange info, and for good reason. Keyserver is used to key applications, thus making sure that you're living up to the licensing agreements of the application. Using keyserver is much nicer than the NeXTSTEP method of each developer coming up with their own unique schemes to track the licenses of their individual products. What it uses to identify an application is it's size, and it's creation date. It can't use the modification date, as that may change. I'm skipping over a bunch of details here, as I'm not really out to describe all the ins and outs of Keyserver. In any case, this works very well. It'd be a shame to lose it. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-16.sprintlink.net!news.onramp.net!usenet From: Jim_Miller@suite.com Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Dynamic flag in 4.0 and 4.1 Date: 22 Feb 1997 04:17:21 GMT Organization: OnRamp Technologies; ISP; Dallas/Ft Worth/Houston, TX USA Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5els0h$agc@newsread.onramp.net> References: <5dvfhi$s0i@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <5dvuuq$3fs@news.next.com> Reply-To: Jim_Miller@suite.com NNTP-Posting-Host: s172-122.suite.com mpaque@next.com (Mike Paquette) wrote: >The assorted DYLD environment variables are strictly for debugging >purposes. They aren't available to apps running from the Workspace, >or when running as the superuser (root) for obvious reasons. This is bad. We sell a product that consists of a bunch of executables (that run in the background), a couple of OpenStep applications (launched from the Workspace), and a dynamic library. The executables and OpenStep applications are linked with the dynamic library, and our customers will link their OpenStep apps with the dynamic library. The lack of a DYLD mechanism that works for apps launched from the Workspace will force our customers to install our dynamic library in a directory that has the same path as the directory the library was built in. In other words, our customers will have to install our product into a specific directory with a fixed name and path. They will not be able to install our product into a directory of their chosing. If they do, then none of our OpenStep applications that use our dynamic library will run. Am I correct, of am I misunderstanding something? Jim_Miller@suite.com -- ____________________________________________________________________ The Internet is a land bridge for memes ____________________________________________________________________ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 21 Feb 1997 14:03:56 GMT Organization: Frank's Area 51 Lines: 38 Message-ID: <5eka0c$98d@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> <5ej0nn$6t6@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: altenber@acpub.duke.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22990 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62219 comp.sys.mac.system:201173 In <5ej0nn$6t6@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Lee Altenberg wrote: > Here's an example of why I can't stand the Mac's HFS file system. I just bought > the Sonata font from Adobe. Adobe told me the Mac version would work with > NEXTSTEP. So, I got the suckah, and put it on a Power Mac. I then used Fetch > to send it over the network to my PC running NEXTSTEP 3.3. Fetch allowed me to > pick Mac Binary II or BinHex. I tried both. When Opener on the NeXT side opens > the *.hqx or *.bin files, it shows 0 bytes in the *.data file. All the data is > in the *.rsrc files, i.e. the resource fork. Why is all the font data (these > are the bitmap and outline files) in the resource fork, not the data fork? > Anyway, the outline file is supposed to be ASCII PostScript, but it has lots of > binary data in it. What a PITA! By the way, if you know what is wrong and how > to fix it, please drop me a note. > Copy your Sonata font on a Macintosh HFS Disk 1.44 MByte as plain file (it should have the 'Shaded A' icon for a PS font), get my FontConvert.app from peanuts.leo.org or next-ftp.peak.org, install and start in on your NeXT (Running NS 3.x or OS 4.x). Insert and mount your Mac Disk, show FontConvert the font, it should be able to convert it painlessly and will calculate a suitable AFM file in the process... BTW FontConvert.app is freeware/send-me-some-money-if-you-really-like-it-ware, the next release will be using the CAP (Appletalk) file name scheme for resource and finderinfo data, so you can directly use a network mounted Appleshare'ed volume. -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!pasteur.fr!jussieu.fr!eurocontrol.fr!polaris.eurocontrol.fr!cyberspam!not-for-mail From: fucuco@hamlet.net (Good Friend) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:30:13 GMT Message-ID: Subject: cmsg cancel <330d7930.6000913@news.uoknor.edu> Control: cancel <330d7930.6000913@news.uoknor.edu> X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230 Organization: Usenet Canal Historique Approved: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr X-Cancelled-By: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) X-Newsposter: cancel-spam version 1.19 X-no-archive: yes Lines: 9 ECP/EMP aka SPAM or pyramidal scheme (MMF) cancelled by bofh@keltia.freenix.fr It may also be an image too small for newsbot to be activated. See report in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins. Date: Fri Feb 21 15:14:41 1997 Original subject was: Learn to Make $$$FAST CASH$$$ With Honest Work #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dtinews!news.dtinet.or.jp!taurus!news5-tokyonet!tokyonet.ad.jp!tokyonet.ad.jp!tyo-noc-news!jh1ynw!nsdnews!nsc-ei-salome!nsc-ei-news!dinotopia!spin-hsd1-tky!sicnews!inetnews.sic.co.jp!usenet From: akki@sic.co.jp (KAWAMATSU Akira) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Questions another Page Orientation at Once Date: 21 Feb 1997 08:23:44 GMT Organization: Software Industrial Co., Ltd. Tokyo Japan. Lines: 24 Distribution: comp Message-ID: <5ejm2g$l1d@inetserv.sic.co.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.sic.co.jp Hi. I'm new here in this group. I have a Question about Printing by NeXT programming. Q. How to print another Page orientation at once. I wanna print Portlait and Landscape Format(A4) at One print Action. First page is OK, but second page cannot print well for affecting first page Orientation. (at the case,2nd page is prined by Portlait image.) I wanna change page orientation directly. If you know some hints,Please email to me. environment: OS : NeXTSTEP 3.3J(Japanese Edition) lang : Objective-C Thanks in advance. -- written by Akira Kawamatsu From Japan to Love. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nntp.club.cc.cmu.edu!goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!cs4w+ From: Charles William Swiger Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 10:42:41 -0500 Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 118 Message-ID: References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu> <330CEC81.5A34@acm.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: <330CEC81.5A34@acm.org> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:201200 comp.sys.next.programmer:22992 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62228 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4192 [ ...Followups redirected out of the programmer groups... ] Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 21-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org >> If you understand the difference, why did you claim that "your process >> would probably suspend..." when a process using non-blocking I/O will >> not suspend? >> >> Contradiction detected. > > Do you understand the meaning of the word probably? Yes. In this context it would mean that some task has non-deterministic behavior which is being described by probabilities as to whether the process would block or not. However, whether a process will suspend or not is deterministic-- either it will or it won't depending on whether it used blocking or non-blocking I/O. Therefore, "probably" is an inappropriate term to use. [ ... ] >> According to what you've said, if I find Unix a better solution for some >> task, then I can't be a "real user of computers"? >> >> What nonsense.... > > You are correct, your previous statement was nonsense. Please stop > putting words in my mouth, and then arguing as if I said them. Isn't it odd how you deleted your words which I was responding to? Here's what you said: > Good, but my exact point is that there is still much progress to be made > in the OS area. And certainly if you talk to real users of computers, > they find other non-Unix solutions better alternatives My comment was fully justified by this statement of yours, which in your own words was "real users of computers" "find other non-Unix solutions better alternatives". I have good reason to question both this overgeneralization and the reason why you would make an association between "real computer users" and "non-Unix solutions". > And you are the first to accuse others of the strawman tactic! A strawman argument is an attempt to distort someone's argument until it says something untrue and then refute this untruth as if you were responding to the original argument. I didn't distort your words in the above exchange-- the question I asked was an obvious way of refuting your overgeneralized claim. Futhermore, I made sure that I quoted everything you'd said instead of snipping off the relevant context the way you did. You cannot accuse me of distorting your words when I quoted exactly what you said. I don't resort to strawman arguments. I don't need to. On the other hand, it's a fact that you did resort to strawman arguments when you repeatedly claimed that I haven't used other operating systems aside from Unix sufficiently. It's also a fact that you were wrong to claim that "Unix is bloated". I believe you were lying when you claimed that you wanted to have a technical discussion, Ian. I challenge you to disprove my belief by addressing the technical points that I have made. Start by addressing your claims about the size of Unix as compared to on the observable facts from using the 'du' command. Judging from your past and current behavior, however, you'll snip this whole section instead of responding to it or admitting the truth. >>>> That's why people write software layers on top of the OS, such as >>>> OPENSTEP, which provide higher level abstractions which use the more >>>> primitive functionality provided by the OS. And that's where those >>>> high-level abstractions belong-- not in the kernel.... >>> >>> Right, but as far as an application is concerned that is the OS. >> >> You have one of the most bizzare viewpoints I've ever seen. > > Not at all. From the applications viewpoint, when it calls a system > level service for a resource, it is calling the OS. That's a tautology-- if you're calling a "SYSTEM level service", obviously you're involving the "operating SYSTEM". However, you can do lots of things with OPENSTEP that do not involve system level resources and the OS at all. >> OPENSTEP is not an operating system; it's an software layer that >> provides an abstraction _away_ from the specific OS that the application >> runs on, so that the app can do useful things without having to be >> written using non-portable, operating-system-specific functionality. > > Well, I think we're actually saying the same thing here, > so I can't see why you were picking an argument above. No, we're not-- I'm saying there is a distinction between an OS and software components not in the OS which provide useful functionality to application. > As I said, to the application, that abstraction you are talking about is > the OS. If the application can tell any different, then it's not an > abstraction! But OPENSTEP provides functionality which does not have any analogue at the operating-system level. It can't possibly provide an abstraction for something which does not exist! -Chuck Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer ----------------+---------------------+--------------------- I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news.belwue.de!bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de!news From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 22 Feb 1997 16:06:29 GMT Organization: Frank's Area 51 Lines: 30 Message-ID: <5en5i5$f84@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> References: <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> <5ej0nn$6t6@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> <5eka0c$98d@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> <1997022211003422003@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: miranda.burn.this.net X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(i) Cc: theisen@akaMail.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22993 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62234 comp.sys.mac.system:201221 In <1997022211003422003@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> Dirk Theisen wrote: > Hello Frank! > > Frank M. Siegert : > > the next release will > > be using the CAP (Appletalk) file name scheme for resource and finderinfo > > data, so you can directly use a network mounted Appleshare'ed volume. > > BTW: netatalk has a much nicer scheme of storing the resource forks etc. > It is hidden in a folder (.AppleDouble ?) that is normally not shown on > the unix side (because of the "."). > What about using this for FontConvert? netatalk does not run on NeXTSTEP/OpenStep, so of what use can this be? Beside the CAP naming scheme is a .resource directory for the resource fork part and a .finderinfo for the - guess what :) > Netatalk is faster anyway... :-) This is to be determined. It can be fast a hell - if it does not work on NS/OS all speed is quite useless :). I am unable to understand the holy war of 'netatalk' against 'CAP', both are solutions for a special problem. Both work and both has their strengths and weaknesses. -- * Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net * NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!geraldo.cc.utexas.edu!porter.as.utexas.edu!raph From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer Date: 21 Feb 1997 21:34:13 GMT Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5el4cl$88i@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> <330A2E07.563D@ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: porter.as.utexas.edu X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0] Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.system:201224 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62235 comp.sys.next.programmer:22994 Charles William Swiger (cs4w+@andrew.cmu.edu) wrote: : Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & : Unix: File S.. by Mike Connally@dial.pipex : > > Okay, thanks for the correction. Even so, the point still applies to : > > just NFS servers, which is more relevent for me.... : > : > No it doesn't. With NFS client software, Macs can use any : > file (data or executable) resident on any NFS server. : : But that NFS client software doesn't come with MacOS, now does it? : It's a seperate commercial product.... True, but the NFS client plus the Mac OS still cost much less than NeXTStep. I don't think cost or Apple's choice to leave secondary features like NFS to third party developers can be used to argue against the utility of creator codes in addition to file types. Now such issues (including what is secondary) might play a role in the choices Apple makes in the development of Rhapsody, but for the essentually UI issue of files remembering their creator, the decision will likely be based on ease of use and easing migration of current Mac users to Rhapsody. By saving creator and file type, Rhapsody can easily be adapted to provide either Mac or NeXT users with a GUI which functions as they expect. The technical issues of how to store such info and separate the data from the rest don't really impact this decision. Either using NeXT style wrappers, which essentially make each file a directory containing separate files for data, etc., or the current Mac fork structure, which essentially splits each file foo into 2 files, a foo.data and a foo.rsrc, can be made to work with a Unix style filesystem. To the ordinary user, they would look the same. Only if you looked at the filesystem with ls, assuming that Rhapsody has ls, could you tell the difference. Raph ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William Raphael Hix Department of Astronomy raph@astro.as.utexas.edu University of Texas Voice: (512) 471-3412 R.L. Moore Hall FAX: (512) 471-6016 Austin TX 78712 WWW: http://tycho.as.utexas.edu/~raph Room 17.210 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!uunet!in1.uu.net!204.245.3.50!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 21 Feb 1997 14:35:01 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 16 Message-ID: References: <5ejfuf$ae2@news4.digex.net> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.182 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.machten, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.osf.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.mach, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191222 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20954 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15311 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58474 comp.sys.next.programmer:22995 comp.sys.next.misc:25157 comp.unix.machten:4118 comp.unix.osf.misc:4167 comp.os.mach:4113 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53957 John Kheit said: [on my citing Webster's 3rd International] >In the states, the authority is likely to be the 9th or newer >version. yar, but I picked up the entire 3 volume set for $25, so I'm willing to put up with a few obsolete definitions... --------------------------------------------------- Apple is a company, but Macintosh is a community. -S.M. King --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.b-1.de.contrib.net!news.nacamar.de!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!uucp2.uu.net!swissbank!root From: thomas_zhou@swissbank.com Subject: 3 times NILoginPanel Message-ID: <1997Feb19.234918.6357@il.us.swissbank.com> Sender: root@il.us.swissbank.com (Operator) Nntp-Posting-Host: kunimura Organization: Swiss Bank Corporation CM&T Division Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:49:18 GMT Lines: 56 I am trying to modify the NILoginPanel so it will give user 3 times logging attempts, but 'cancel' button is not working well which is required to hit 3 times to exit. Can anyone tell me how to modify my code so 'cancel' can exit from the loop? Following is my code: - verifyUser { int counter = 0; BOOL tmp; NILoginPanel *loginPanel; loginPanel = [NILoginPanel new]; if (loginPanel == nil) exit(-1); counter++; [loginPanel setDelegate: passwordDelegate]; tmp = ([loginPanel runModalWithValidation: self inDomain: NXArgv[0] withUser: NXUserName() withInstruction: "Please Enter Collat Password..." allowChange: YES]); while (tmp != YES && counter < 3) { counter++; [loginPanel setDelegate: passwordDelegate]; tmp = ([loginPanel runModalWithValidation: self inDomain: NXArgv[0] withUser: NXUserName() withInstruction: "Please Enter Collat Password..." allowChange: YES]); }; switch (tmp) { case YES: break; default: case NO: if (counter >= 3) { NXRunAlertPanel("User Authentication", "Password Incorrect", "GoodBye", 0, 0); exit(2);} break; } return self; } Tom #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.nacamar.de!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!news.uni-mannheim.de!news.rhein-neckar.de!tutnix.rhein-neckar.de!espresso.hf.org!hauke From: hauke@Espresso.Rhein-Neckar.DE (Hauke Fath) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 23:02:15 +0100 Organization: Einzeln auftretender Radfahrer Lines: 54 Message-ID: <19970219230215660315@q700.hf.org> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <01bc1cb9$37d896c0$2510c00a@olivier> <5eans2$8jq@nyheter.chalmers.se> <5efg5a$p2e@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: q700.hf.org X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2b3 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:22997 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62239 comp.sys.mac.system:201229 Nathan M. Urban wrote: > In article , peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) wrote: > > > And another one: what happends if you move or rename an application in > > NeXTOS? Can I still double-click my document and have the correct > > application launch? [This is a hot one...] > Yes, unless you move the application outside one of the folders that the > Workspace searches at login time. If you do that, the Workspace will be > unable to find the application in order to query it about what document > types it can open. (Though the application itself will still run.) Bummer. > > On my Mac I can rename and move an application and the desktop database > > finds it immediately when I open a document. Even the aliases (soft > > links) survive. Rhapsody better keep this behaviour or a lot of Mac > > users will be angry and encounter problems. > > I dunno. Rhapsody is just a different paradigm. With its filesystem > structure based on directories instead of hard drives, I don't really > see much reason why you should ever want or need to move an application > outside of its original folder (unless it's into a subfolder you made > for organizational purposes, in which case the Workspace will still find > it). Look at it the other way 'round: Why should a (desktop machine) OS _force_ me to keep applications in special places and _not_ move them? This definitely touches the heart of the "Macintosh Way" of doing things. The paths paradigm may be fine if you are working from a command line like your father and grandfathers and have your $PATH set right. But for a GUI that wants to be more than the M$ crap? Frankly: A machine that forces me to keep in mind paths and locations, a machine that spits out "sharing violations" when I move an open folder (like NT 4) is not a Macintosh to me. (A bit pathetic, but that's about what I feel.) -- I should add that I run one of my Macs under NetBSD/mac68k and hack the kernel. Now I've seen the NeXT "wrappers" pattern, and I think Apple can make things look the same on the surface. But they will have a hard time providing the "Macintosh Way" of treating files (and apps in special) with a BSD ffs. Sure, you can always add another abstraction layer and bring your machine to a crawl... hauke -- "It's never straight up and down" (DEVO) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!205.180.230.3!cygnus.com!not-for-mail From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: compiling multi-binary? Date: 22 Feb 1997 01:51:47 GMT Organization: Cygnus Solutions Lines: 20 Message-ID: <5eljfk$n01$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> References: <5eg3aj$61q@news.tamu.edu> Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: arcadia.cygnus.com X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(s) Cc: stephen@ccc1.tamu.edu In <5eg3aj$61q@news.tamu.edu> Stephen Johnson wrote: > How do I compile for multiple platforms on a single platform? I'm > compiling on a NeXT but need it for an Intel, also. > > Any pointers would be helpful, > There's a "-arch " argument for the compiler. If you're on teh command line, you'd do something like this: cc foo.c -arch sparc -arch etc In Project Builder, when you go to build there's an "options" button that allows you to select a architectures -- John "kzin" Rudd jrudd@cygnus.com http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============ Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news.pbi.net!nntp.mainstreet.net!news.walltech.com!HSNX.wco.com!news.wco.com!not-for-mail From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 22 Feb 1997 13:30:09 -0800 Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16 Lines: 20 Sender: mpaque@mpaque Distribution: world Message-ID: <5enoh1$dg@mpaque.mpaque> References: Reply-To: mpaque@wco.com NNTP-Posting-Host: octans40.wco.com In article gandreas@mirage.skypoint.com (Glenn Andreas) writes: > Well, in the context of Rhapsody, isn't probably needed. Assuming they go > with a BSD 4.4 (or even 4.3) style file system, it is trivial to add > creator and type information to the file system. There are several long > fields in the inode that are unused, so using the for creator and type is > a no-brainer. Of course, getting and setting these values is a bit > trickier, since a POSIX stat call won't work (the struct you pass in > doesn't have any unused fields). While this works well in a local filesystem, the added inode information may not be preserved when mapped into vnodes for network file systems, such as NFS or Novell fileservers. -- I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me. mpaque@next.com Official business only NeXT Mail OK mpaque@wco.com Non-business or personal mail NeXT mail OK #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.pbi.net!nntp.mainstreet.net!news.walltech.com!HSNX.wco.com!news.wco.com!not-for-mail From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Dynamic flag in 4.0 and 4.1 Date: 22 Feb 1997 13:30:02 -0800 Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16 Lines: 32 Sender: mpaque@mpaque Distribution: world Message-ID: <5enogq$d9@mpaque.mpaque> References: <5els0h$agc@newsread.onramp.net> Reply-To: mpaque@wco.com NNTP-Posting-Host: octans40.wco.com In article <5els0h$agc@newsread.onramp.net> Jim_Miller@suite.com writes: > mpaque@next.com (Mike Paquette) wrote: > > >The assorted DYLD environment variables are strictly for debugging > >purposes. They aren't available to apps running from the Workspace, > >or when running as the superuser (root) for obvious reasons. > > This is bad. We sell a product that consists of a bunch of > executables (that run in the background), a couple of OpenStep > applications (launched from the Workspace), and a dynamic library. > The executables and OpenStep applications are linked with the dynamic > library, and our customers will link their OpenStep apps with the > dynamic library. Non-NeXT frameworks that third parties are expected to link with should be installed in /LocalLibrary/Frameworks in the current Mach based products. You can also dynamically add libraries into your app at runtime, through the usual object oriented APIs or the C API (e.g., NSAddLibrary(const char * library)). If you MUST use the environment variables, I suggest you break your app into a launcher part which reads the defaults database, configures the environment properly, and then launches your actual app. This will help protect your app from being spoofed by bogus DYLD environment parameters, and let you set up the app's runtime configuration using the usual defaults mechanism. -- I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me. mpaque@next.com Official business only NeXT Mail OK mpaque@wco.com Non-business or personal mail NeXT mail OK #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ux8.cso.uiuc.edu!tokarek From: Ryan Tokarek Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:56:20 -0600 Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 110 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> <5em9qk$3eu@news.platinum.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux8.cso.uiuc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: tokarek@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu In-Reply-To: <5em9qk$3eu@news.platinum.com> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191244 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20957 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15312 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58485 comp.sys.next.programmer:23001 comp.sys.next.misc:25158 comp.unix.machten:4119 comp.unix.osf.misc:4168 comp.os.mach:4114 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53966 On 22 Feb 1997, Gary W. Longsine wrote: > it appeared that Ryan Tokarek wrote: > > On 22 Feb 1997, Gary W. Longsine wrote: > > > > > it appeared that Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > > > > shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before > > > a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for > > > certain, "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. > > > > No, no. You haven't a clue. > > > > _Every_ process was to be protected under Copland with NuKernel. The > > collection of tasks that ran as one large task (the compatibility box) and > > was run internally with cooperative multitasking was protected (CMT > > because of the continued use of a non-reentran GUI). No OS task nor any > > other task could read from or write to anything in the compatibility box. > > [munch] > > > You were mistaken. > > Although you are technically correct in the strictest sense, when you say > that every process would have had protected memory, you offer a misleading > claim about the worthiness of Copland and the NuKernel, and fail to > acknowledge the ugly truth: I was not defending Copland, but NuKernel. > Copland would have forced ordinary user applications, even brand > spanking new ones for MacOS 8, to reside in the same memory space. Only apps > specially written could get their own memory space, and the only apps > eligible for such special treatment were those without a GUI. That's what I said... it looks like you only read my first paragraph and ignored (and cut out) the rest. > Although I am perhaps guilty of being a bit inflammatory, I am nonetheless > right. No, you are fundamentally wrong. Had you actually read my full post, you would have seen that. You are correct that Copland put all applications that required use of the GUI in a single shared memory space, but to the kernel that was just to be a single process (task... whatever). Internal to the compatibility box, there was a scheduler that decided which task (internal to the compatibility box mind you) would be next to take processor time. This had nothing to do with NuKernel. The compatibility box task was to have the third highest priority (below real time and below certain OS tasks) for preemptive scheduling with other tasks. The compatability box ***was protected from other tasks***. It was one segment of protected memory. Is this getting clearer? The issue with "partial protected memory" in Copland was not due to a kernel limitation. It was an inherant design limitation due to the fact that Apple wanted to retain it's non-reentrant GUI and a shared adddress space for applications that made use of it. Apple could have used any kernel for Copland. They could have used Mach 2.5 They decided to write their own kernel (NuKernel). That there is an arguement over this is because _you_ do not understand what was supposed to be happening. You are mistaken. > You are defending the (indefensible) technological equivalent of > Windows 95, which as you probably know is a horrible, unstable, hunk of junk. > Copland would have been just like it. I am *sooo* glad that usenet is not > deciding the architecture of Rhapsody. Read my words, and understand. I AM NOT DEFENDING COPLAND!!!!!!!!! The technical issues with using NuKernel for Rhapsody are not what you think they are. You have misunderstood a fundamental concept here. > Popular vote in Mac.advocacy would have picked: > > <> NuKernel There _are_ technical reasons not to use NuKernel, but they aren't the ones you think they are. > <> Punt UNIX (in favor of what? nobody ever said) No, don't get rid of Unix entirely. Make it so that it's availlable, but not necessary. > <> Open Transport What's wrong with OpenTransport? Do you understand its primary purpose? > <> The MacOS filesystem Only to retain backward compatibility. I don't mind if Rhapsody uses some other file system, but I want to be able to see my HFS formated partitions and disks as well. Ryan Tokarek #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!netnews.com!news.emanon.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!bingnews.binghamton.edu!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 17 Feb 1997 22:49:47 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 43 Message-ID: <5eanab$c6r@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com> <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23002 comp.sys.mac.system:201274 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62253 Charles William Swiger wrote: > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 17-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT & > Unix: File S.. by John Moreno@interpath.co > > ] Perhaps it's just me, but I don't see much value to preserving > > ] the timestamp of the creation date of the original version of > > ] a file when you don't actually have the original file-- just > > ] the modified version. Can you provide a real-world example of > > ] why you'd care about that timestamp? > > > > A very simple and quit answer is when you have two files with > > basically the same information and have modified both since > > their creation and want to know which file is newer. > > The answer is whichever file was modified last, and can be answered > using the last-modified timestamp; the creation timestamp isn't > needed. > > Again, that doesn't answer my question. If the two timestamps are available, people will find uses for them. Back in the days when mainframes ruled the earth, the operating system used at RPI was one called "MTS" (Michigan Terminal System). Files on it had four different timestamps. Creation date, last data-change time, last catalog-change time, and even last reference date. All of these were useful, in one context or another. Can people survive without them? Yes. Are people *worse off* with them? No, don't be silly. They are nice to have, even if other operating systems don't have them. Now, the way MTS handled creation-date is different from the way the Mac handles it, so I'm not saying it's an exact mapping. And no, right this second I can't give you a real-world example of how this is useful, because I haven't used MTS much in the last eight or nine years. I *do* know that I *did* use all of these timestamps when I spent most of my time on MTS, so I'm aware that they can be useful. I also know that I missed some of these when working on Unix, but I'll admit it was only a minor annoyance. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem1-20.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 14:35:39 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 27 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem1-20.teleport.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3d2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62256 comp.sys.mac.system:201279 comp.sys.next.programmer:23003 In article , Charles William Swiger wrote: >AppleSingle and AppleDouble are archive formats, and my NFS server >cannot represent the Mac resource forks the way HPS does without using >such a mechanism. AppleDouble is closer to "wrappers", it is a two file representation of a dual-fork file(with the exception that there is no enclosing directory). It (and AppleSingle) is not an archive format, rather it is a way to represent a single Mac file on a foreign filesystem. >Furthermore, let's consider exactly how transparent things really are. >What happens when you do have this commercial Mac NFS client software. >If I save a document like plain old ASCII text file or some common WP >format like MS-Word from a Mac onto the NFS server, do I get (a) a file >that I can walk over to a non-Mac system and be able to use as-is, or do >I get (b) an AppleSingle or AppleDouble file that I can't use as-is? You get (a), the whole point of AppleDouble is that the resource fork is separated from the data fork. AppleSingle should only be used to encode a mac-specific file, say an executable. -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Rejected Microsoft ad slogans #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!news.primenet.com!not-for-mail From: "Lawson English" Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 21 Feb 1997 17:43:11 -0700 Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet Lines: 18 Message-ID: References: <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> X-Posted-By: @198.68.42.175 (english) X-Mailer: Cyberdog/1.2 X-News-Servers: news.primenet.com X-Newsgroups-TO: nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.advocacy, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.programmer, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.sys.next.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.machten, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.unix.osf.misc, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.mach, nntp://news.primenet.com/comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191269 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20960 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15318 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58495 comp.sys.next.programmer:23004 comp.sys.next.misc:25160 comp.unix.machten:4120 comp.unix.osf.misc:4169 comp.os.mach:4116 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53984 Gary W. Longsine said: > >Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before >a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for certain, >"special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. > No, only "special" processes would NOT be protected: those that were sitting in the Blue Box. --------------------------------------------------- Apple is a company, but Macintosh is a community. -S.M. King --------------------------------------------------- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ux5.cso.uiuc.edu!tokarek From: Ryan Tokarek Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 20:40:30 -0600 Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 58 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux5.cso.uiuc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: tokarek@ux5.cso.uiuc.edu In-Reply-To: <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191278 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20961 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15321 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58502 comp.sys.next.programmer:23005 comp.sys.next.misc:25161 comp.unix.machten:4121 comp.unix.osf.misc:4170 comp.os.mach:4117 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53987 On 22 Feb 1997, Gary W. Longsine wrote: > In it appeared that Joaquin > Menchaca wrote: > > In article , shess@one.net (Scott > > Hess) wrote: > > > > > > > This is very well said. That was my original concern about the decision > > about using a monolithic kernel from NeXTSTEP (OPENSTEP for Mach). I > > think technically this is a mistake. It may be outrageous to say this, > > but I think NuKernel of Copland is a better choice as it combines the best > > of Apple with the best of NeXT (OPENSTEP). > > Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before > a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for certain, > "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. No, no. You haven't a clue. _Every_ process was to be protected under Copland with NuKernel. The collection of tasks that ran as one large task (the compatibility box) and was run internally with cooperative multitasking was protected (CMT because of the continued use of a non-reentran GUI). No OS task nor any other task could read from or write to anything in the compatibility box. (The plan for Copland was to be much like Windows95... it was to be an interim OS to get users up to a level so that a major OS transition could take place with a relative minimum of fuss that the user would have to go through... their goal was too hard to implement in a timely fashion it seems.) Because Apple wished to retain backwards compatibility with System 7 applications, because Apple didn't want to make the GUI reentrant at the time, and because older apps expected a flat memory model, Apple decided to go with a compatibility box. This was to be one large segment of protected memory that ran the GUI and applications that required the use of the GUI (System 7 and the main portions of Mac OS 8 apps). The tasks running inside the compatibility box were to have very limited memory protection from each other (all code would have been protected). This was because, to the kernel, the compatibility box was just one task, one segment of protected memory. NuKernel had full protected memory with preemptive multitasking and SMP for all tasks. People only call it partial protected memory and PMT because of issues with the internals of the compatibility box. I'm not really defending Apple. They fiddled and diddled with Copland too long, but their problems were not with the kernel... they had problems implementing backwards compatibility in that fashion. As far as I know, there was nothing in particular that was wrong with NuKernel (except prehaps that it wasn't as well tested like Mach 2.5 has been). You were mistaken. Ryan Tokarek #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!csn!nntp-xfer-2.csn.net!yuma!purdue!mozo.cc.purdue.edu!news.jsc.nasa.gov!pat!allman From: allman@pat.mdc.com (Mark Allman ) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc Subject: (Repost) Shared object libraries (rld) using OpenStep 4.1 Date: 21 Feb 1997 23:07:38 GMT Organization: McDonnell Douglas, Houston Division Lines: 23 Message-ID: <5el9rq$21v@cisu2.jsc.nasa.gov> References: <5ef797$m78@cisu2.jsc.nasa.gov> NNTP-Posting-Host: salmon.mdc.com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23006 comp.sys.next.software:28209 comp.sys.next.misc:25162 OpenStep 4.1 for Mach question: Some C code I'm compiling and putting into a shared object library (via ld -r) for later dynamic loading (using rld) is now refusing to be loaded. I've begged and pleaded, but to no avail. The error I'm now getting is something like "cannot use rld with dynamic shared libraries." Since all the "standard" libraries (e.g., libsys_s.dylib) are now dynamic shared libraries, are the rld routines no longer usable? I can switch to use dyld routines and use libtool--is this what I should do? Can someone point to some documentation (man pages aren't telling the complete story) that discusses rld routines under OpenStep 4.1? Also, I noticed that we can no longer build static executables, since there are no static "standard" libraries. Try compiling the "Hello, world" program using the -static compile/link switch. -- Mark Allman -- Sr. Engineer, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace, allman@pat.mdc.com -- Software consulting (Perl, C, Python, ...), ghost@ghost.neosoft.com -- (see: http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/5857.html) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news-xfer.mccc.edu!super.zippo.com!zdc-e!newsfeed.gte.net!news-fw-12.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!bingnews.binghamton.edu!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: 18 Feb 1997 02:53:09 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 75 Message-ID: <5eb5il$fv7@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62275 comp.sys.mac.system:201317 comp.sys.next.programmer:23007 tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler) wrote: > The problem is, I couldn't care less about a multiuser operating > system. I bought my Mac for use by a single person: me. With the > exception of server machines, every single Mac -- heck, every > single *personal computer* -- I've ever seen has been used by > one person at a time. The majority of them have been used by a > single person, period; if you leave out the CS lab machines, that > becomes an overwhelming majority. Many of the macs in homes have multiple people using it at different times. Someone like me might have a truly personal Mac, but other families often have fewer personal computers than they have people. > I'm blathering on about this because it seems like a large number > of the arguments by NeXT partisans boil down to 'it has to be > this way if you're on a multiuser system.' Well, as I said, I > don't WANT a multiuser system; and in my experience, this holds > true for the vast majority of machines outside of a lab environment. I prefer the NeXTSTEP way of doing things because it works better, for me, as a person who is pretty much the only one using my NeXTSTEP machines. While I do run Mac labs, and really would like multi-user capabilities there, my NeXTSTEP machines are pretty used only by me. I still think the NeXTSTEP interface works better, even ignoring multi-user issues. We aren't saying "this obviously sucks for an individual user, but you'll just have to grit your teeth and bear the pain because we want multi-user capabilities". Ignoring the multi-user issues, I (personally) could probably argue that either the Mac interface or the NeXTSTEP interface is better. Each has their strong points, and it's basically a subjective argument as to which one is better. However, when it comes to multi-user issues, it's fairly objective to say that NeXTSTEP handles those issues better. It's tiring to keep arguing subjective issues, because there's nothing you can do to make them objective. Thus, some NeXTSTEP advocates trot out the multi-user issues because that's objective. It isn't because NeXTSTEP is problematic as a single-user system, it's just that there is no good way to prove that it works well until we get "you" (the generic you) to use it for awhile. It really does work quite well, and I'm saying this as a person who used Macs for many years before I saw a NeXT. > I don't mind having things in there for the benefit of multiuser > setups, as long as they don't get in the way of ordinary single-user > operation; but if there's a conflict, I think multiuser features > have to take a back seat to convenience features for single users. NeXTSTEP is quite convenient for individual users. > This gets back to the same argument I keep raising throughout > these threads: It doesn't make sense to complicate the user > experience for the majority of people to cater to the specialized > needs of a small minority. I don't think it makes sense to complicate the user experience either. My position is that the NeXTSTEP user interface does *not* "complicate" anything. It's just different than the MacOS interface. Personally I would be fairly comfortable with either a MacOS or NeXTSTEP interface on Rhapsody, so I'm not insistent on trying to get my own way. Either way is fine with me, but I do wish to state that the NeXTSTEP interface works a lot better than a longtime Mac user might expect based on it's description. It really is very well done. I suspect Rhapsody will be very well done too, one way or another. I look forward to it's release, whether it's Mac-ish or NeXTSTEP-ish, just so we will have something more interesting to talk about. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.platinum.com!news From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 22 Feb 1997 00:14:58 GMT Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation Lines: 42 Message-ID: <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.105.80 X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(n) Cc: jm041536@fhda.edu Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191301 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20964 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15323 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58507 comp.sys.next.programmer:23008 comp.sys.next.misc:25164 comp.unix.machten:4122 comp.unix.osf.misc:4171 comp.os.mach:4118 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:53996 In it appeared that Joaquin Menchaca wrote: > In article , shess@one.net (Scott > Hess) wrote: > > > > > Unless I've _greatly_ misread a variety of papers, microkernels are > > coming into their own because we are asking entirely too much of our > > monolithic kernels. The amount of effort it takes to add something > > new to your monolithic kernel is often so great that you never get > > around to it - and thus a microkernel can be more efficient in the > > end. In essence, using a microkernel lets you get to a better design > > for the system faster than a monolithic kernel, so it wins in the end. Which says nothing about the of the kernel. What everyone seems to forget is that isn't everything. Microkernels are best defined in terms of how the kernel design is abstracted -- not the size of the binary. If several different parts, properly abstracted, are compiled into the same binary, you really have a hybrid micro-monolith kernel -- which is what damned near every vendor is shipping today. Like NeXT, they are all using dynamically loaded device drivers, but the core OS server is compiled into the same binary with the microkernel. > This is very well said. That was my original concern about the decision > about using a monolithic kernel from NeXTSTEP (OPENSTEP for Mach). I > think technically this is a mistake. It may be outrageous to say this, > but I think NuKernel of Copland is a better choice as it combines the best > of Apple with the best of NeXT (OPENSTEP). Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for certain, "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. /gary -- Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS, PLATINUM Technologies, Inc. | \ o.O| Objective-C: l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail | =(_)= (Can i have his spam?) & MIME) |. U Elegance is Relevant. #################################################################### From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 00:44:38 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 66 Message-ID: <19970221004438207835@roxboro-184.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <1997021716473229510531@roxboro-170.interpath.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-186.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!visi.com!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!nntp.mid-ga.com!gonzo.mylink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23009 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62278 comp.sys.mac.system:201323 Stephen Peters wrote: ] phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) writes: ] > Stephen Peters wrote: ] > ] Which begs the question to a die-hard Unix user like myself, if ] > ] you add the notion of a `preferred application', what use is the ] > ] `creator' designation other than bookkeeping? As a fallback to a ] > ] known good application? ] > ] > Well for starters some applications can handle the files of a ] > certain type created by one application but not of another - non ] > standard usage and all that rot. ] ] Hmmm...I suspect that if there were less of an emphasis on the ] `creator' and more of an emphasis on the types, this kind of situation ] would occur less often. After all, if MicrosoftWord.app wanted to ] badly break RTF, they can always create the new MWRTF type. ] ] Maybe I'm living in a fantasy world :-) Well, I don't want to know anything about your fantasies, but as far as emphasis on types goes - I don't think so. I've never had two projects that used the same file structure. Different programs have different needs. Just for starters, I've never been able to find a program that will correctly translate from xWORKS WP to yWORKS WP. The graphics are ALWAYS lost and quite often a good deal of the formatting. ] > ] Ditto on the various discussions on adding the `time created' ] > ] field to augment the last modified and other time codes stored ] > ] with the file. For me, once I start caring about the time the file ] > ] was first created, I start caring about all the changes that were ] > ] made, which seems to scream `revision control system' to me. (And ] > ] if you copy a file from somewhere else, should it inherit the ] > ] source file's created time?) ] > ] ] > ] Maybe I'm just not seeing it. Can someone help enlighten me? ] > ] > Because when you update a applications then look at the file it ] > often gets translated into the newer version, this is one way of ] > keeping track of when you started something. ] ] But this is kind of my point. For me at least, when I want to know ] when I started something, I need that information in the context of ] "what kinds of changes have I made since I created this?" And I'm usually looking to see it's okay to throw it away - and the last modification time just doesn't do it. ] And I think it also begs the paranthetical question I asked above as ] well. If I copy something, should it inherit the source file's ] `created' time? If the created time's purpose is to track when I ] started work, then the answer is yes. If instead the purpose is to ] track when I started working on this `revision' of the document, then ] the answer is probably no. In either case, I think it's better to use ] a revision control system. I'll answer these in reverse. A revision control system is overkill 9 times out of 10 - and is only half-way usable that 1 time. Interesting question, but I'd have to say that if a file is duplicated then it should have the same file info as the original - after all if you want to track the start of this revision then the file can always be created from within the application. It is something that you might want to make setable by a preference or use a modifier to reverse it. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.0.65.182!news-in.tiac.net!posterchild!p14.ts1.newbr.nj.tiac.com!user From: engelhar@dreamscape-solutions.com (Michael Engelhart) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: NS 3.0 Date: 22 Feb 1997 20:28:11 GMT Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc. Lines: 13 Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: p14.ts1.newbr.nj.tiac.com Hello all- I'm thinking of buying an old 33MhZ NeXT Station turbo for pretty cheap. It comes with NS 3.0 user/developer installed. Is this worth learning NeXT development on? I currently develop for the Mac and couldn't find any info about versions of NS previous to 3.3 on their site. Also, can you upgrade relatively easily to 3.3? I'm just trying to get a head start on Rhapsody. Also, are there any good tech references out in publication on NeXTStep?....any info would be greatly appreciated. thanks, Mike #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in1.uu.net!192.108.254.3!news.teleport.com!ip-salem2-07.teleport.com!user From: jk@esperance.com (Joel Klecker) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.system Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 20:31:40 -0800 Organization: Esperance Communications Lines: 24 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <1997022211004522664@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-salem2-07.teleport.com X-Newsreader: MT-NewsWatcher 2.3d2 X-URL: X-PGP-Key: Length=1024; ID=0x17D57681; Fingerprint="12 92 9C E4 60 DF 62 CD FC AD 18 47 9A 74 E7 D1" Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20965 comp.sys.mac.system:201342 comp.sys.next.programmer:23011 In article <1997022211004522664@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>, theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) wrote: >Joel Klecker : >> I think a file system that stores meta-data in the filename (file >> extensions) is a huge step backwards. > >What does it matter if I don't see it? >Treat the extension as a "system part" of the directory entry, not >directly editable by users. I don't want to lose the flexibility of the type/creator system either. I don't have a problem with hiding things from users when there is no more elegant way, but the type/creator system works well, and doesn't impact that much on interoperability. [comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior replaced with comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc and followups set to comp.sys.mac.advocacy, comp.sys.next.advocacy, and comp.sys.mac.system] -- Joel Klecker (jk@esperance.com) PGP Key available from my webpage, see "X-PGP-Key" header for fingerprint. We are Microsoft. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. -- Rejected Microsoft ad slogans #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!agate!usenet From: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: How to make "STOP" button? Date: 22 Feb 1997 22:59:02 GMT Organization: University of California, Berkeley Lines: 102 Distribution: world Message-ID: <5entnm$pc5@agate.berkeley.edu> References: <5eiv68$rnt@news.next.com> Reply-To: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu NNTP-Posting-Host: moica.berkeley.edu In article <5eiv68$rnt@news.next.com> michael (Michael F. DeMan) writes: >In <5cp1vh$a0h@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> Lee Altenberg wrote: >> What is the standard (or just a good) method for enabling a user to stop a >> process in process? I have a method which iterates a dynamical system: >> >> - iterate:sender >> { >> while (loopConditionMet) >> { >> Iterate(dynamicalSystem); >> } >> return self: >> } >> >> Can I just stick some method call in the loop that checks to see if I've >pressed >> a "STOP" button on my application? >> >> if ( [stopButton isPressed] ) exit; >> >> What would be the implementation of [stopButton isPressed] ? >> >> Thanks much, >> Lee >> > > There are lots of ways to do this, the easist is to simply hookup your stop >button to a method that sets up a boolean value.... > >- stopButtonClicked: sender { > theGlobalBoolean = FALSE; >} > > Then check the value of that boolean in your loop. I don't think your stopButtonClicked: method will get called until after the loop ends, in a single-threaded application. Thus, the button press will not break the loop. Here's what I actually use in my curve fitting application where sometimes I want to stop non-converging fitting attempts. I add a method to a Button class using category, and then give the 'id' of the abort button to a lengthy numerical computation loop. Then in the compute loop, the button state is periodically checked by: for(;;) { ... Long computation loop here ... // Check abort button every once in a while if(((niteration % 20) == 0) && abortButton) { if([abortButton isButtonPressed]) break; } } It works well, and avoids DO, timed entry, or threads for a stupid STOP button. --- ButtonPressed.h -- #import @interface Button(ButtonPressed) - (BOOL)isButtonPressed; @end --- end of ButtonPressed.h -- --- ButtonPressed.m -- /* ButtonPressed.m Category method to check button press. */ #import #import "ButtonPressed.h" @implementation Button(ButtonPressed) - (BOOL)isButtonPressed /* * This is a category method that adds a (abort) button for querying button press * during a lengthy loop operation (like some numerical computation). * You give the button object's id to the computation engine, which should * then call this method periodically to see if the user pressed the button. * If the method returns YES, it breaks the computation loop, returning the * control to GUI. * It can be used to do other things, e.g., to elicit status reporting from * a long computational loop. */ { NXEvent *e = [NXApp getNextEvent:NX_MOUSEDOWNMASK waitFor:0.0 threshold:NX_MODALRESPTHRESHOLD]; if (e) { /* if there is a mouse down event waiting for us */ NXPoint p = e->location; [self convertPoint:&p fromView:nil]; if(NXMouseInRect(&p, &bounds, NO)) // if the click is within the bounds of button return YES; } return NO; } @end ---- end of ButtonPressed.m --- #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.mindspring.com!markeaton_ From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 21:32:11 -0800 Organization: MindSpring Enterprises Lines: 19 Message-ID: References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ip178.santa-clara6.ca.pub-ip.psi.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Server-Date: 22 Feb 1997 05:30:31 GMT X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191374 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20966 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15332 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58525 comp.sys.next.programmer:23013 comp.sys.next.misc:25166 comp.unix.machten:4123 comp.unix.osf.misc:4172 comp.os.mach:4120 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:54034 In article <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) wrote: > > Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before > a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for certain, > "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. Whats really a crock of sh*t is when you make an off the cuff statement like that without really knowing whether its true or not. When you do that, you're no better than Lawson English... (FYI- NuKernel does not extend memory protection just to certain, "special" processes...) -Mark ---> markeaton_@_mindspring_._com #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.nacamar.de!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.184.165.2!news.interport.net!joshua From: joshua@precipice-mp.com (Joshua Whalen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 04:48:41 -0500 Organization: Precipice Multimedia Productions Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts1port13.port.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62296 comp.sys.mac.system:201385 comp.sys.next.programmer:23014 > Furthermore, let's consider exactly how transparent things really are. > What happens when you do have this commercial Mac NFS client software. > If I save a document like plain old ASCII text file or some common WP > format like MS-Word from a Mac onto the NFS server, do I get (a) a file > that I can walk over to a non-Mac system and be able to use as-is, or do > I get (b) an AppleSingle or AppleDouble file that I can't use as-is? You get exactly what you saved to disk. Apple Double and Apple Single are only applied to files which contain resource forks. Since files (except for things like unflattened Quicktme movies or unflattened MacroMedia projectors) don't have resource forks, they aren't encoded. Joshua #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!bingnews.binghamton.edu!rebecca!rpi!usenet From: Garance A Drosehn Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: New Information Date: 17 Feb 1997 22:52:50 GMT Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA Lines: 18 Message-ID: <5eang2$c6r@usenet.rpi.edu> References: <5e55u8$7td@news.bu.edu> <5eacjo$f6o@news.next.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: mlor.its.rpi.edu X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82) MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) wrote: > John Siracusa writes > > From MacWeek: > > > > Sources in the boiler room report that Rhapsody will weigh in > > at about 110 Mbytes of pure chewing satisfaction and come with > > three levels of Install: EZ, Minimal and Custom. > > Wow. I wonder how the folks at MacWeek know how much disk space > Rhapsody is going to use, when it hasn't even been built yet? MacWeek knows everything. Don't you remember all of it's articles about Apple buying Be? --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer (MIME & NeXTmail capable) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute; Troy NY USA #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!uunet!in3.uu.net!199.184.165.2!news.interport.net!joshua From: joshua@precipice-mp.com (Joshua Whalen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 04:48:06 -0500 Organization: Precipice Multimedia Productions Lines: 15 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5ddtq2$ier@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <5e9ral$jfu@horus.ecmwf.int> NNTP-Posting-Host: ts1port13.port.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.4.0 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62297 comp.sys.mac.system:201387 comp.sys.next.programmer:23016 > Furthermore, let's consider exactly how transparent things really are. > What happens when you do have this commercial Mac NFS client software. > If I save a document like plain old ASCII text file or some common WP > format like MS-Word from a Mac onto the NFS server, do I get (a) a file > that I can walk over to a non-Mac system and be able to use as-is, or do > I get (b) an AppleSingle or AppleDouble file that I can't use as-is? You get exactly what you saved to disk. Apple Double and Apple Single are only applied to files which contain resource forks. Since files (except for things like unflattened Quicktme movies or unflattened MacroMedia projectors) don't have resource forks, they aren't encoded. Joshua #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!theisen From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:00:45 +0100 Organization: University of Bonn, Germany Lines: 26 Message-ID: <1997022211004522664@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62301 comp.sys.mac.system:201392 comp.sys.next.programmer:23017 Hi, Joel! Joel Klecker : > I think a file system that stores meta-data in the filename (file > extensions) is a huge step backwards. What does it matter if I don't see it? Treat the extension as a "system part" of the directory entry, not directly editable by users. One problem I see is that this could lead to different files with the same name (but different type). This may by confusing (or wonderful). Bug or feature? I don't know. I would probably like converting a file and have two versions with the same name afterwards. Greetings Dirk -- The TriMedia chip used by Apple will handle several times what MMX can. Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-regensburg.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!news-koe1.dfn.de!news.ruhr-uni-bochum.de!news.rhrz.uni-bonn.de!theisen From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:00:34 +0100 Organization: University of Bonn, Germany Lines: 23 Message-ID: <1997022211003422003@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> References: <1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> <19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net> <5ej0nn$6t6@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> <5eka0c$98d@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23018 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62302 comp.sys.mac.system:201395 Hello Frank! Frank M. Siegert : > the next release will > be using the CAP (Appletalk) file name scheme for resource and finderinfo > data, so you can directly use a network mounted Appleshare'ed volume. BTW: netatalk has a much nicer scheme of storing the resource forks etc. It is hidden in a folder (.AppleDouble ?) that is normally not shown on the unix side (because of the "."). What about using this for FontConvert? Netatalk is faster anyway... :-) Greeting Dirk -- The TriMedia chip used by Apple will handle several times what MMX can. Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/ #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!ux8.cso.uiuc.edu!tokarek From: Ryan Tokarek Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 23:37:34 -0600 Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana Lines: 46 Message-ID: References: <5em9qk$3eu@news.platinum.com> <5eodgh$ors@lynx.dac.neu.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ux8.cso.uiuc.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Sender: tokarek@ux8.cso.uiuc.edu In-Reply-To: <5eodgh$ors@lynx.dac.neu.edu> Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191439 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20968 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15340 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58545 comp.sys.next.programmer:23019 comp.sys.next.misc:25173 comp.unix.machten:4124 comp.unix.osf.misc:4173 comp.os.mach:4122 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:54071 On 22 Feb 1997, Michael Kagalenko wrote: > Ryan Tokarek (tokarek@students.uiuc.edu) wrote > ] > ]> <> Open Transport > ] > ]What's wrong with OpenTransport? Do you understand its primary purpose? > > I don't. Perhpas, you could explain ? Is it yet another proprietary > standard ? As I understand it (and I do not know the details so people with more knowledge of OT step in here), OpenTransport provides a network-neutral API. Programs can use the various OT APIs to deal with networking, and they won't need to know which networking standard is being used (TCP/IP, IPX, AppleTalk, whatever). It adds a layer of abstraction that can be used to send infromation over any network with the app having to know the nature or details of the network. You can use OpenTransport to deal with specific details of a certain network protocol, but OpenTransport provides the tools to deal with any network (that OpenTransport is configured for) without the app having to know which one. Taking a look at the info on TCP for OpenTransport (in the Control Panel), it appears to be based on "Mentat Portable Streams" and "Mentat TCP"... if that's meaningful to you (it isn't to me). I don't know whether there is an equivalent in NeXTStep, but that's roughly what OpenTransport does. I don't know whether it would be advantageous to port it over to Rhapsody, but it it's the Mac's current networking API. > ]> <> The MacOS filesystem > ] > ]Only to retain backward compatibility. I don't mind if Rhapsody uses some > ]other file system, but I want to be able to see my HFS formated > ]partitions and disks as well. > > OPENSTEP/Mach 4.1 for intel can access Apple fs, so it seems that > Rhapsody will do it by default. Great! That's what I thought, but Gary's post seemed to imply otherwise. Ryan Tokarek #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!feed1.news.erols.com!newsfeeds.sol.net!uwm.edu!fnnews.fnal.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!news From: Shimpei Yamashita Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 22 Feb 1997 23:48:58 -0800 Organization: Hummingbird Heaven Lines: 52 Message-ID: <7fafow55ed.thoron@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> <5enmc3$bra@news.platinum.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: argo.patnet.caltech.edu X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191446 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20969 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15343 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58547 comp.sys.next.programmer:23020 comp.sys.next.misc:25174 comp.unix.machten:4125 comp.unix.osf.misc:4174 comp.os.mach:4123 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:54073 gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) writes: > > In it appeared > that Mark Eaton wrote: > > In article <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary > > W. Longsine) wrote: > > > > > > > > Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before > > > a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for > certain, > > > "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. > > > > Whats really a crock of sh*t is when you make an off the cuff statement > > like that without really knowing whether its true or not. When you do that, > > you're no better than Lawson English... > > That's a pretty low blow, especially since I've provided some pretty clear > documentation, from Copland-friendly sources, to back up my claim. It doesn't help when you misread documentations. You didn't read the white paper on the *microkernel*, did you? I have. > > (FYI- NuKernel does not extend memory protection just to certain, "special" > > processes...) > > Wrong. Plainly, clearly, demonstrably, incontestably wrong. Ordinary > Copland applications, even brand new ones written for the Copeland OS, are > to share the same memory pool -- not just the legacy System 7 apps > (as is the case with the new Blue Box.) Yes, and irrelevant. What the Copland OS was or was not supposed to be capable of is not directly applicable to what NuKernel (which is just the *microkernel* handling process creation and scheduling; Copland was to be a lot more than just that!). NuKernel was perfectly capable of hosting a completely protected, preemmptively multitasking OS; indeed, Gershwin (the "advanced" version of Copland that never happened) was supposed to use NuKernel. Copland was not capable of protecting all processes, but that isn't the microkernel's problem. Ragging NuKernel for Copland's problem is like implementing MS-DOS on top of Mach and blaming Mach for the horrible attributes of DOS.... I'm inclined to agree, actually, that Copland's OS design was fundamentally flawed. I was willing to live with it for a while as a stopgap measure, but never as a semipermanent solution. Again, irrelevant for deciding on the merits of NuKernel. -- Shimpei Yamashita (Note: Currently experimenting with a new newsreader (gnus). Apologies in advance for malformed or spurious posts or replies.) #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.nacamar.de!uunet!in1.uu.net!199.86.32.9!skypoint.com!gandreas From: gandreas@mirage.skypoint.com (Glenn Andreas) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:55:16 -0600 Organization: GAndreas Software Lines: 38 Message-ID: References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> <1997022211004522664@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: mirage.skypoint.com X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.2.0b7 Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62311 comp.sys.mac.system:201430 comp.sys.next.programmer:23021 In article <1997022211004522664@rhrz-ts2-p1.rhrz.uni-bonn.de>, theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) wrote: > Hi, Joel! > > Joel Klecker : > > I think a file system that stores meta-data in the filename (file > > extensions) is a huge step backwards. > > What does it matter if I don't see it? > Treat the extension as a "system part" of the directory entry, not > directly editable by users. Well, in the context of Rhapsody, isn't probably needed. Assuming they go with a BSD 4.4 (or even 4.3) style file system, it is trivial to add creator and type information to the file system. There are several long fields in the inode that are unused, so using the for creator and type is a no-brainer. Of course, getting and setting these values is a bit trickier, since a POSIX stat call won't work (the struct you pass in doesn't have any unused fields). This isn't hypothetical either - I've actually done it several years ago to add a form of manditory access control (Type Enforcement) to a BSD kernel for making a commercial firewall. There is something satisfying about doing an "ls" and seeing things like: /bsd kern:bbox /tmp/ temp:diry (directories, since they are also files, also got a creator and type). -- Glenn Andreas Author of Macintosh games: gandreas@skypoint.com Theldrow 2.3 http://www.skypoint.com/members/gandreas Blobbo 1.0.2 ftp://ftp.skypoint.com/pub/members/g/gandreas Unsolicited bulk email will be proofread for a US$500/k, min $1000 #################################################################### From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System Date: Fri, 21 Feb 1997 00:44:35 -0500 Organization: phenix@interpath.com Lines: 38 Message-ID: <19970221004435207619@roxboro-184.interpath.net> References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <5dts78$bot$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> <5ecund$rcn$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: roxboro-186.interpath.net X-Newsreader: MacSOUP 2.2 Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!visi.com!news.IAEhv.nl!news.oru.edu!nntp.mid-ga.com!gonzo.mylink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!interpath!news.interpath.net!news.interpath.net!phenix Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23022 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62315 comp.sys.mac.system:201441 John Rudd wrote: ] In <1997021716472829510259@roxboro-170.interpath.net> John Moreno wrote: ] > John Rudd wrote: ] > ] The reason this is a problem on a Mac isn't because it's stored in ] > ] a central location.. it's because the Mac doesn't allow you to ] > ] pick file type over file creator for its launching heuristic, and ] > ] then give a seperate file-type <-> application binding for ] > ] different "profiles" (even if its' just swapping a file at ] > ] runtime). If it did allow this (even the crude run time swapping ] > ] of the binding file), then it wouldn't be a problem. ] > ] > It DOES allow you to override the launching application but ONLY if ] > the creating application is not available. It's called Macintosh ] > Easy Open and it could be extended to work properly (override even ] > application which ARE available) in the current system, let alone in ] > the next. ] ] ] That's kind of what I meant.. You can't choose to open by file type ] _OVER_ file creator. If the file creator data is there, and the file ] creator app exists on that machine, you MUST use it. You cannot ] choose a file type application OVER that creator app. I didn't say ] you can't open by file type at all. I simply said the Mac doesn't ] give you a choice between the two -- if creator exists you use it, ] otherwise you use type... no choice. That's true, and I consider it a defect in MEO. OTOH for 90% of the people it's a problem that occurs between almost never and never. The reason I consider it a defect is that you shouldn't design a system based exclusively on what most people are doing most of the time, you do the basics then you extend the functionality to the less often used functions. Often the average user doesn't know that something would be beneficial until after they seen it in action. -- John Moreno #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!ix.netcom.com!news.platinum.com!news From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 22 Feb 1997 20:53:23 GMT Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation Lines: 101 Message-ID: <5enmc3$bra@news.platinum.com> References: <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com> Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.168.105.80 X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.10 Beta(n) Cc: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191475 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20970 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15347 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58555 comp.sys.next.programmer:23023 comp.sys.next.misc:25175 comp.unix.machten:4126 comp.unix.osf.misc:4175 comp.os.mach:4124 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:54098 In it appeared that Mark Eaton wrote: > In article <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary > W. Longsine) wrote: > > > > > Then you haven't got a clue. NuKernel should have been scrapped before > > a single line of code was written. Protected memory, but only for certain, > > "special" processes? What a crock of sh*t. > > Whats really a crock of sh*t is when you make an off the cuff statement > like that without really knowing whether its true or not. When you do that, > you're no better than Lawson English... That's a pretty low blow, especially since I've provided some pretty clear documentation, from Copland-friendly sources, to back up my claim. > (FYI- NuKernel does not extend memory protection just to certain, "special" > processes...) Wrong. Plainly, clearly, demonstrably, incontestably wrong. Ordinary Copland applications, even brand new ones written for the Copeland OS, are to share the same memory pool -- not just the legacy System 7 apps (as is the case with the new Blue Box.) COMEDY BREAK: Tai-Kwon-Leap Master: Who disrupts our meditation as a pebble disturbs the pond? Tai-Kwon-Leap Student: Ooh! ooh! Me! Ed Gruberman! I'm so shocked at the tremendous waste of resources that went into the backward architecture of Copland that I tend to emote on the topic -- sorry. I just don't understand why anyone would spend almost half a billion dollars, and over 5 years on OS research (Pink, Taligent, Copland) and fail to grok something so basic as a rational protected memory scheme. (I also don't understand why people are so infatuated with a research kernel (Copland's NuKernel) that's never seen the production light of day and doesn't offer an improvement over kernels that I've been using for years... but that's another topic.) Again, I suggest that you check out the Apple Press book on Copland. It was written by folks friendly to the Copland project, and states in clear, matter-of-fact language how the OS was to work. "MacOS 8 Revealed: A Technical Tour of the New Mac OS", Tony Francis, ISBN 0-201-47955-9, Apple Press, August 1996. In the strictest technical sense, perhaps I was too harsh on the poor, defenseless little NuKernel, which is after all, only a sequence of ones and zeros on a plastic platter. The NuKernel itself might (in theory) allow protected memory for any process, if you worked out the Copland-specific stuff. -- but using NuKernel as the core of the NeXT OS would take rather a lot of work, for really zero gain. Anyway, nobody has yet offered proof that my general claim is incorrect. The designers of Copland wandered very far down an expensive and pointless track. They should have had their leashes jerked back long, long ago. If they had presented me with such a kludge two years ago, after hundreds of millions of dollars and three years wasted on Pink and Taligent, I would have fired them as being fundamentally incompetent. Period. Copland + NuKernel = No protected memory for ordinary applications. Under Copland, developers must take special steps to arrange for protected memory for "applications that could benefit" from it. The first, and very, very special, step is that one must hack the user interface out of the app. That means that all the problems Mac users have with the average user apps taking down other apps would still exist in Copland, with the minor enhancement that your kernel would still be running after your entire workspace crashes. As a user of a UNIX based OS, I don't have this problem. If I'm mistaken about this, then I apologize, I've been misled by the Apple documentation on their own project. However, the literature and discussion seems to leave little room for doubt (I'm not the only person supporting this claim). So the NuKernel was better than anything ever to run on a Mac before. Big deal. It's really no better than several kernels which have been running for several years: NeXT MachOS, Solaris, AIX, Linux, Windows NT. All of those production operating systems have kernels which are at least as good as NuKernel, and some are probably better in certain respects. They all have the advantage of having been actually in production environments, and survived through several new versions. Now what about kernels that are much better than NuKernel? I'd say you have to go look at other research kernels, probably the real-time ones like RTMach, and BeOS. Maybe the distributed things like Plan9 and Inferno. Copland is dead. Long live the new MacOS (MachOS). /gary -- Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS, PLATINUM Technologies, Inc. | \ o.O| Objective-C: l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail | =(_)= (Can i have his spam?) & MIME) |. U Elegance is Relevant. #################################################################### Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news-ber1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-mue1.dfn.de!news-stu1.dfn.de!news-kar1.dfn.de!news.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!news.maxwell.syr.edu!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!gail.ripco.com!nntp.neu.edu!not-for-mail From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!! Date: 22 Feb 1997 22:28:17 -0500 Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA Lines: 26 Message-ID: <5eodgh$ors@lynx.dac.neu.edu> References: <5em9qk$3eu@news.platinum.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lynx.dac.neu.edu Content-Type: text/html X-No-Archive: yes Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:191483 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:20971 comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy:15350 comp.sys.next.advocacy:58559 comp.sys.next.programmer:23024 comp.sys.next.misc:25176 comp.unix.machten:4127 comp.unix.osf.misc:4176 comp.os.mach:4125 comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy:54103 Ryan Tokarek (tokarek@students.uiuc.edu) wrote in article 

]
]> <> Open Transport
]
]What's wrong with OpenTransport? Do you understand its primary purpose?

 I don't. Perhpas, you could explain ? Is it yet another proprietary 
 standard ?


]
]> <> The MacOS filesystem
]
]Only to retain backward compatibility. I don't mind if Rhapsody uses some 
]other file system, but I want to be able to see my HFS formated 
]partitions and disks as well.

 OPENSTEP/Mach 4.1 for intel can access Apple fs, so it seems that
 Rhapsody will do it by default.


-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: Jonathan Hendry 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 02:52:04 -0500
Organization: Steel Driving Software, Inc.
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Gary W. Longsine wrote:

> Anyway, nobody has yet offered proof that my general claim is incorrect.  The
> designers of Copland wandered very far down an expensive and pointless track.
>  They should have had their leashes jerked back long, long ago.  If they had
> presented me with such a kludge two years ago, after hundreds of millions of
> dollars and three years wasted on Pink and Taligent, I would have fired them
> as being fundamentally incompetent.  Period.
> 
> Copland + NuKernel = No protected memory for ordinary applications.

I think it's more like

Copland GUI = No protected memory for ordinary applications.

My understanding is that non-GUI processes would run with
all the benefits of a modern OS. Daemon-style things, 
drivers, etc. would be fine. That's a pretty tiny minority
of the software though.

The limiting factor there was apparently the GUI.

If the GUI had been separated out into its own process,
like NeXT's WindowServer, this probably wouldn't be a problem.

Warning: Bad analogy ahead.

Copland sounds like a combination of WorkspaceManager.app and
the WindowServer. Copland applications with GUIs would be
like threads spawned off of this mutant Workspace - no
protected memory. Since only one WindowServer can run at
a time, only one instance of this mutant app could run at
a time. Non-GUI programs wouldn't be affected by this limitation.
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From: Pohl Longsine 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: cancel <330F33DC.79FD284E@screaming.org>
Control: cancel <330F33DC.79FD284E@screaming.org>
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:37:44 -0600
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From: rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Robert F Tobler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 23 Feb 1997 13:49:51 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
Lines: 25
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In <5ejud7$2pk@crl9.crl.com> Van C. Bagnol wrote:
>    To have _multiple_ users _each_ with a different mapping preference for 
>    individual files looks like it's a many-to-one correspondence. Seems 
>    that can get unwieldy to manage, or at least one that begins to parallel
>    the filesystem for _each user_. (Everyone gets a Desktop database). I 
>    suppose they can inherit the global mapping and simply override.
> 

Is it really that unwiedly to manage?  You only need one database per user,
that is managed by the Workspace/Finder and opened when the user logs in.
It contains one entry for each file for which the user has overridden the
default mapping according to filetype.  Since only a fraction of the files
of a user need such an entry, and each entry will be on the order of less
than 100 bytes (this is an estimate), the overhead for such a database
is negligible.

Under Nextstep the database already exists for per application+user
preferences.  It should be trivial to add the mapping tha maps files
to their opening application.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Robert F. Tobler                 -  tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932
  Institute of Computer Graphics   -  mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at
  Vienna University of Technology  -  http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/

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From: gsupport@mttam.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Attention Apple, Sun and NeXT developers
Date: 23 Feb 1997 15:15:58 GMT
Organization: VVI Data Control Specialists
Lines: 86
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NNTP-Posting-Host: mttam.com
Originator: gsupport@

Attention Apple, Sun and NeXT developers. Start your participation in the
OpenGraph Gamma Program now and receive ...

1. Proven OpenGraph technology used now by the largest OpenStep customers to
   monitor billions of dollars worth of products.
2. No-fee technical support via e-mail, no-fee use of the OpenGraph
   gamma version during the gamma program, and no entrance fee (its free).
3. Free commercial copies of the GraphBuilder** application for ALL computers
   in participant's company, and one copy of OpenGraph-Developer** and
   OpenGraph-User*** sent to participants at the end of the gamma program.

OpenGraph is successful because we make it a win-win situation for everybody
involved. This gamma program is yet another example of that approach. To take
advantage of this offer act now by contact VVI-DCS at gsupport@mttam.com.

_________________________________

PRESS RELEASE:

OpenGraph/OpenStep Gamma Program

VVI Data Control Specialists (VVI-DCS)
311 Adams Ave.
State College, PA 16803
Attn: OpenGraph Coordinator
814-234-9613 ; 888-DCS-OPEN
gsupport@mttam.com

State College, PA, 20 January 1997: VVI-DCS announced an expansion of its
OpenGraph on OpenStep gamma program. If your business is interested in gamma
testing OpenGraph please contact VVI-DCS at gsupport@mttam.com.

"We've been working on the OpenGraph/OpenStep port for about a year now." said
John Brilhart, Chief Technical Officer at VVI-DCS. "Our customers are reporting
complex data sets from global real-time data feeds up to 500 events per second.
That type of data reporting requires reliable and optimized report software.
The gamma program is an important final part of our total quality control of
the OpenGraph port." John adds, "The improvements and new features accompanying
that port ensures our commanding lead in the high-end data reporting markets.
With OpenStep and OpenGraph we provide compelling and unique solutions which
have market advantages for our customers. For that reason we've always been
fully committed to OpenStep on all platforms and have been working with NeXT
and Sun for quite a while. We expect to apply the same level of commitment to
the Apple version of OpenStep when it becomes available."

About VVI-DCS: VVI-DCS, founded in 1989, builds custom OpenStep based data
report and acquisition systems for the financial service, manufacturing,
pharmaceutical and biotech industries and is the leading supplier of high-end
data report software for the OpenStep market.

About OpenGraph: OpenGraph is a framework of Objective-C and C++ objects for
reporting data in graph and textual formats and consists of a graph building
application and pre-built objects. OpenGraph accepts real-time feeds from any
source and serves as a graphing front-end for real-time financial analysis,
transaction, production and inventory analysis, database systems, and
instrumentation. OpenGraph is fully object-oriented and is well suited to
systems which require reliability, exacting specifications and performance.

OpenGraph Status (OpenStep Versions): OpenGraph V3.3a is running in gamma mode
in these configurations: (1) Solaris/OpenStep, (2) Mach/OpenStep V4.1 on
SPARC/Intel/NeXT computers, (3) Windows NT V4.0/OpenStep. A non-disclosure
agreement is required for participation in the gamma program. OpenGraph Status
(NEXTSTEP Versions): The OpenGraph V3.2k CD is available for NeXT, HP PA-RISC,
SPARC, and Intel computers running NEXTSTEP V3.2 or V3.3. OpenGraph V3.2m is
available on DAT and a contract basis for NeXT, HP PA-RISC, SPARC, and Intel
computers running NEXTSTEP V3.2 or V3.3.

_________________________________
A non-disclosure agreement is required for participation in the gamma program.

** no-license-fee commercial use license.
***no-license-fee and royalty-free commercial use license.

(C) Copyright 1997 VVimaging, Inc. (VVI-DCS); All rights reserved. OpenGraph,
GraphBuilder, VVI Data Control Specialists, VVI-DCS, and VVimaging are
trademarks of VVimaging, Inc. (VVI-DCS). NeXT, NEXTSTEP and OpenStep are
trademarks of NeXT Software, Inc. Sun Microsystems and Solaris are trademarks
or registered trademarks of Sun Microsystems, Inc. in the United States and
other countries. All SPARC trademarks are used under license and are trademarks
or registered trademarks of SPARC international, Inc. in the United States and
other countries. Intel is a registered trademarks of Intel. Microsoft and
Windows are registered trademarks of Microsoft, Inc. Windows NT is a trademark
of Microsoft, Inc. All other trademarks and service marks belong
to their respective owners.


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From: younghoon KIL 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Looking for display driver for Compaq notebook
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 00:30:51 +0900
Organization: KORNET
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.hardware:27412 comp.sys.next.programmer:23028 comp.sys.next.software:28224

Please visit http://www.deepspacetech.com/ or
http://www.bifrostworks.com



younghoon KIL 
ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr 
http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~ppai 
(NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP Q&A & Info Board written by Korean)
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From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: kaffe redeux
Date: 23 Feb 1997 20:57:54 GMT
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
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On 19 Feb 1997 21:55:54 GMT, David Young  wrote:
>Okay, after rattling on, I figured it was time to sit down and
>compile the damn thing.
>
>That was the easy part. Then I figured I'd get cool and fix the
>broken shared library support. I modified the Makefiles to build
>Mach-O relocatables instead of .a's, and poked around in the VM
>core to get rld_* to search the path defined in $KAFFE_LIBRARY_PATH
>(which I set to *Library/Kaffe) for code objects named foo.native.
>
>The resulting new version runs HelloWorldApp from the test suite,
>but the compiler (javac) throws an internal NullPointerException
>when I try to compile the other test programs.

Hi David,

I took your posting as motivation to take another attempt at shared libs
and kaffe, this time successfully (the fragements in the current kaffe
are reminiscents of my first try, but then, kaffe wasn't mature enough
so I stopped).

I'm confident that the upcoming 0.8.2 release will contain working shared
libs support for NEXTSTEP.

The main problem is that NEXTSTEP doesn't support development of custom
shared libs; what's possible are dynamically loadable object files,
which can mimick some aspects of shlibs. Anyway, it's not reasonable to 
install all of the libs used in kaffe as dynamically loadable modules,
it only makes sense for optional libs (biss, sawt, net).
kaffe's current setup makes it difficult to support this configuration,
I'm working with Tim on fixing this for 0.8.2.

	Gregor


PS: BTW, the only real problem with shared libs support was that kaffe
sometimes tries to load a library twice or more. NEXTSTEP's rld_load
isn't too glad about this.

-- 
| Gregor Hoffleit                        Mathematisches Institut, Uni HD |
| flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de      INF 288, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany |
| (NeXTmail, MIME)                      (49)6221 54-5771    fax  54-8312 |
| PGP Key fingerprint = 23 8F B3 38 A3 39 A6 01  5B 99 91 D6 F2 AC CD C7 |
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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 23 Feb 1997 21:10:42 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <5eqboi$pfr@news.platinum.com>
References:   
	<5em9qk$3eu@news.platinum.com>  
	<5eodgh$ors@lynx.dac.neu.edu> 
Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
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In  it appeared 
that Ryan Tokarek wrote:
> On 22 Feb 1997, Michael Kagalenko wrote:

[much]

> > ]> <> The MacOS filesystem
> > ]
> > ]Only to retain backward compatibility. I don't mind if Rhapsody uses 
some 
> > ]other file system, but I want to be able to see my HFS formated 
> > ]partitions and disks as well.
> > 
> >  OPENSTEP/Mach 4.1 for intel can access Apple fs, so it seems that
> >  Rhapsody will do it by default.
> 
> Great! That's what I thought, but Gary's post seemed to imply otherwise.

I did mention something about this.. I think it was in another thread... 
where I said:

||> The MacOS filesystem will be supported by Rhapsody for dual-boot systems, 
but 
||> it will not be the primary filesystem.  The MacOS filesystem will, in 
time, 
||> go the way of the Dodo.

I didn't mention that NeXTSTEP already supports read/write/format of DOS and 
MacIntosh floppies, and read/write for DOS filesystems, so Rhapsody will 
probably offer something similar for PowerMac users.

There area also third-party utilities which support several (over a dozen) 
filesystem types under NeXTSTEP/OpenStep.  I think there is a free one (still 
being developed?) based on work done originally for Linux, and  called 
"vmount" but I may be mistaken on the details here.  This utility will 
probably be maintained, and I would expect that eventually you'll be able to 
read/write to Linux, MacOS, and BeOS filesystems from Rhapsody, on your 
quad-boot PowerMac... (MacOS support will be built-in, the others will 
probably be available from a free or inexpensive utility).  pretty cool, eh?  
Intel users should be able to read/write to Linux, BeOS, NT, OS/2, and 
possibly other filesystem types as well, with a third-party utility of this 
type.

Anyway, continued support for the MacOS filesystem will be a part of Rhapsody 
-- when running Rhapsody you will be able to read/write to your MacOS 
filesytem on a dual-boot machine.  (Probably not the other way around, 
though.)

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: bchin@us.net (Bill Chin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: help: dissolving image
Date: 23 Feb 1997 21:27:26 GMT
Organization: US Net - MD,DC,VA ISP - info@us.net
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Hi,

I'm trying to get an image to dissolve in over another view
under OPENSTEP/Mach 4.0. It was originally NEXTSTEP code,
and I've mutated it to this point:

(inside of - (void)drawRect:(NSRect)aRect)

NSDPSContext *currentContext = [NSDPSContext currentContext];
int i;

for (i=1; i<=20; i++) {
	[theImage dissolveToPoint:(aRect.origin) fromRect:aRect
		fraction:((float)i/30.0)];
	[infoPanel flushWindow];
	[currentContext flush];
	[currentContext wait];	// for NXPing()
}

Unfortunately, I still only get the final result.
The other view is a NSBox, so it's opaque and the image
should use it to dissolve in. The window is buffered.
I know it's doing something since it takes a while to
finish. Any advice?

Thanks in advance,

..Bill Chin
bchin@us.net
s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu
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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 23 Feb 1997 22:13:28 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
Lines: 74
Message-ID: <5eqfe8$pfr@news.platinum.com>
References:  <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> 
	 <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> 
	  
	<5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>  
	<5enmc3$bra@news.platinum.com> <7fafow55ed.thoron@argo.patnet.caltech.edu>
Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
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In <7fafow55ed.thoron@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> it appeared that Shimpei 
Yamashita wrote:
> gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) writes:

[StuffGaryWrote munch];

In this week's exciting continuation of our story, Gary will say, 
"...NuKernel is the be-all and end-all of kernel design".  And now, let's 
rejoin our story, already in progress...

> It doesn't help when you misread documentations. You didn't read the
> white paper on the *microkernel*, did you? I have.

OK.  I concede.  

And I'd love to read one, by the way.  You wouldn't happen to have a URL 
handy, would you? 

The work I did read was oriented to the Copland MacOS8 as a whole, and so it 
seems likely that I incorrectly interpreted the ability of the bare NuKernel, 
due to excessive extrapolation from limited information.

> Yes, and irrelevant. What the Copland OS was or was not supposed to be
> capable of is not directly applicable to what NuKernel (which is just the
> *microkernel* handling process creation and scheduling; Copland was to be
> a lot more than just that!). NuKernel was perfectly capable of hosting a
> completely protected, preemmptively multitasking OS; indeed, Gershwin (the
> "advanced" version of Copland that never happened) was supposed to use
> NuKernel. Copland was not capable of protecting all processes, but that
> isn't the microkernel's problem. Ragging NuKernel for Copland's problem is
> like implementing MS-DOS on top of Mach and blaming Mach for the horrible
> attributes of DOS....

 It also seems, given the years-long, never-ending research nature of the 
Apple OS project, almost  as likely that the Gershwin version of the NuKernel 
(a gleam on a whiteboard?) would have required significant development beyond 
the Copland version of the kernel, in order to actually and for real, support 
a modern OS.  NuKernel's suitability for a modern OS really is very dependant 
on how it was implemented, and how far along that implementation really was.  
I doubt that NuKernel is the be-all and end-all of kernel design, and I 
really doubt if the implementation was ready from prime-time.  Did they cut 
any corners, because they knew it would be years before the hosted OS  
actually tried to use certain features?  Probably not, from what you say.

> I'm inclined to agree, actually, that Copland's OS design was
> fundamentally flawed. I was willing to live with it for a while as
> a stopgap measure, but never as a semipermanent solution. Again,
> irrelevant for deciding on the merits of NuKernel.

Now for the 5-year, 1/2 billion dollar question:  If NuKernel design was 
abstracted correctly, and it was implemented well enough to host a modern OS 
complete with protected memory, etc., why, then, is the architecture of 
Copland so horribly broken that it can't offer protected memory to GUI 
applications, even though the kernel would allow it?  

Is it, as someone previously suggested, because of the "non-reentrant" 
MacOS-descended GUI?    Hmm... if that really is the case, why is everyone so 
hot to have this GUI ported over to Rhapsody?  To cripple Rhapsody, and drive 
the final nail in Apple's coffin?

You see, I'm sure, that I'll be wearing an asbestos suit for quite a while, 
regardless of whether (as seems likely) new information will cause me to 
change my mind about exactly which parts of Copland were responsible for its 
horrible brokenness.  

8^)

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: help: dissolving image
Date: 23 Feb 1997 22:21:48 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins
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Cc: bchin@us.net

You only get one flushWindow per call to drawRect:
This is because -display calls windows -disableFlushWindow: method
You need to implement your drawRect: method to be called 20 times rather than 
looping 
20 times within drawRect:

Use NSTimer to get the effect you want.

In <5eqcnu$nio@news.us.net> Bill Chin wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to get an image to dissolve in over another view
> under OPENSTEP/Mach 4.0. It was originally NEXTSTEP code,
> and I've mutated it to this point:
> 
> (inside of - (void)drawRect:(NSRect)aRect)
> 
> NSDPSContext *currentContext = [NSDPSContext currentContext];
> int i;
> 
> for (i=1; i<=20; i++) {
> 	[theImage dissolveToPoint:(aRect.origin) fromRect:aRect
> 		fraction:((float)i/30.0)];
> 	[infoPanel flushWindow];
> 	[currentContext flush];
> 	[currentContext wait];	// for NXPing()
> }
> 
> Unfortunately, I still only get the final result.
> The other view is a NSBox, so it's opaque and the image
> should use it to dissolve in. The window is buffered.
> I know it's doing something since it takes a while to
> finish. Any advice?
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> ..Bill Chin
> bchin@us.net
> s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu
> 

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From: boshons@seanet .com(Boshon Sprague)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 23 Feb 1997 22:43:30 GMT
Organization: Seanet Online Services, Seattle WA
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Let me step out on a limb here and comment on the fact that we apparently 
have a large number of unemployed microkernel designers posting. I was at one 
of many next PR sessions where a (somewhat) noted OO jornalist tried to nail 
down a OS point with the Nexter doing the session, something like this:

Press : I dont see the benfits in your presentation of the (mach) OS 
perfomace issue with object communication.

Nexter : This is the best overall solution for 99% of the performance issuse.

Press : You don't really understand what OS issues exist (outside of next  
(M$))

Next : What is your background in OS design?

Press : None....

Nexter : I personnaly hold over 25 specific patents in OS design in my 
careeer before next, and i feel this is THE BEST system overall ever.

Press : But how?....

Nexter : Must be the pretzels.


once again, Listen to my words, dont worry we are going to get ALL of the 
good technology That can be stuffed into this new apple pie.

Boshon 
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From: ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu (Noah M. Daniels)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Looking for display driver for Compaq notebook
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 18:14:54 -0500
Organization: Noah's Ark
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In article <331062A4.2A19@soback.kornet.nm.kr>, ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr wrote:

> Please visit http://www.deepspacetech.com/ or
> http://www.bifrostworks.com


Hmm.. the former has some drivers though I don't think they're the right
ones. However, the bifrostworks link doesn't work... the domain does not
exist. I also tried bitfrostworks.com, in case you made a typo, but that
didn't work either. Any ideas?

Thanks,

-- 
-- Noah M. Daniels    
    ndaniel1@swarthmore.edu
   http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/~ndaniel1/
    "He was a brave man who first ate an oyster"
      - Jonathan Swift

"Wonder is the feeling of a philosopher, and philosophy begins in wonder" - Socrates
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 15:18:51 -0800
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In article <5eqfe8$pfr@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org
(Gary W. Longsine) wrote:

> 
> And I'd love to read one, by the way.  You wouldn't happen to have a URL 
> handy, would you? 

Hmm. I looked around on the OS Home page, ,
but I couldn't find it. (That is where I have read the white paper in the
past.)

>  It also seems, given the years-long, never-ending research nature of the 
> Apple OS project, almost  as likely that the Gershwin version of the NuKernel 
> (a gleam on a whiteboard?) would have required significant development beyond 
> the Copland version of the kernel, in order to actually and for real, support 
> a modern OS.  NuKernel's suitability for a modern OS really is very dependant 
> on how it was implemented, and how far along that implementation really was.  
> I doubt that NuKernel is the be-all and end-all of kernel design, and I 
> really doubt if the implementation was ready from prime-time.  Did they cut 
> any corners, because they knew it would be years before the hosted OS  
> actually tried to use certain features?  Probably not, from what you say.
> 

Gary, its maddening trying to carry on an amicable conversation with
someone when they go out of their way to be adversarial. Thats the main
reason Lawson is in my killfile. 

> Now for the 5-year, 1/2 billion dollar question:  If NuKernel design was 
> abstracted correctly, and it was implemented well enough to host a modern OS 
> complete with protected memory, etc., why, then, is the architecture of 
> Copland so horribly broken that it can't offer protected memory to GUI 
> applications, even though the kernel would allow it?  

Because there exist companies like Microsoft. That base their top-selling
Office software on OLE for Macintosh. OLE peeks into the heaps of other
processes. It does stuff like walk the (private) window lists of those
processes. It modifies the (private, read-only) visible and clipping
structures of those processes. It pokes holes in their clipping
structures. All so OLE client processes can draw content that looks
'embedded' in the fore-process. 

And Copland's goal was to run all that crap and provade as many buzz-word
OS features as possible to those apps. Thats the main reason it failed.

> Is it, as someone previously suggested, because of the "non-reentrant" 
> MacOS-descended GUI?    Hmm... if that really is the case, why is everyone so 
> hot to have this GUI ported over to Rhapsody?  To cripple Rhapsody, and drive 
> the final nail in Apple's coffin?

Copland failed for a number of reasons. None of them related to NuKernel. 

As far as the GUI goes, you can't really be so naiive, can you? A GUI is
just a pattern of bits on-screen. 'Porting' the Mac GUI really means using
whatever graphics API Rhapsody ends up using to draw windows, controls,
etc. according the the Apple advanced look-n-feel. Or, hopefully,
abstracting the look-n-feel into an Appearance Manager so that it is more
flexible. In either case, the look of the GUI has nothing to do with the
kernel, the re-entrancy of the graphics system, memory protection, or
anything else brought up in this thread.

And a nail in Apple's coffin? Oh please...
Get a clue and cut the FUD...

> 
> You see, I'm sure, that I'll be wearing an asbestos suit for quite a while, 
> regardless of whether (as seems likely) new information will cause me to 
> change my mind about exactly which parts of Copland were responsible for its 
> horrible brokenness.  

Uhh huh. You wouldn't get flamed so much if you toned your attitude down a
notch...

-Mark

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 17:27:33 -0600
Organization: Northwestern University
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In article <5eqfe8$pfr@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org
(Gary W. Longsine) wrote:

> Is it, as someone previously suggested, because of the "non-reentrant" 
> MacOS-descended GUI?    Hmm... if that really is the case, why is everyone so 
> hot to have this GUI ported over to Rhapsody?  To cripple Rhapsody, and drive 
> the final nail in Apple's coffin?

In Rhapsody, the old non-reentrant MacOS GUI API and window drawing and
display management architecture will only live in the "blue box"
compatibilty part of the system, where unmodified old System 7
applications will run.

In the "yellow box" part of Rhapsody, there will be an entirely different
reentrant GUI API and window and display management architecture - NeXT's
OpenStep application kit framework classes and display postcript.

In Rhapsody, preemptively scheduled memory protected apps running in the
yellow box will be able to draw on the screen and interact with the user.
This wasn't the case in Copland. This is the big difference.

The look and feel of Rhapsody's GUI is reportedly supposed to be Mac-like,
with many improvements, including perhaps some from NeXTSTEP. This will
all be based on top of the new OpenStep and display postcript model,
however, not on top of the old System 7 APIs.

None of this has anything do with the Mach vs. NuKernel issue.

Make sense now?

-- 
John Norstad


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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 24 Feb 1997 00:22:04 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
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	 <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> 
	  
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In  it 
appeared that Mark Eaton wrote:

> > And I'd love to read one, by the way.  You wouldn't happen to have a URL 
> > handy, would you? 
> 
> Hmm. I looked around on the OS Home page, ,
> but I couldn't find it. (That is where I have read the white paper in the
> past.)

Thanks for looking. 

> Gary, its maddening trying to carry on an amicable conversation with
> someone when they go out of their way to be adversarial. Thats the main
> reason Lawson is in my killfile. 

And thanks for being patient with me, Mark, I'll try to behave.

I'm really *not* trying to compete with Lawson.  I am simply flabbergasted at 
the sheer volume of anti-Mach FUD that gets spread here, much of it in the 
guise of, "The NuKernel was perfect, Apple is stupid for going with a ten 
year old kernel like Mach."

As I'm sure you know, I've been patiently posting non-inflammatory, accurate, 
and helpful information, since the day of the merger, as to the merits of 
Mach (and other NeXT bits), and why Apple should adopt OpenStep, "lock, 
stock, and MachOS", as I've said several times, and they have now done.

Last week, as an experiment, I decided to attack Copland and NuKernel 
head-on, in an effort to shake up the debate a little, and try to gain some 
ground.  I read up in the best source I could find, and opened fire.  The 
only bit I regret is the "crock of sh*t" line.  That one really upset people, 
and I hereby apologize for the inflammatory nature of that remark.  

By and large, the remainder of my contributions on this topic have been 
civil, honest, and display a willingness to learn from the views expressed by 
others (like you) who are able to support their opinions with rational 
analysis and credible sources.

And just in case you've misinterpreted my posts today as sarcasm, let me 
re-iterate that I have in fact conceded on the fundamental point of 
contention:  

It seems that the NuKernel itself probably isn't fundamentally flawed with 
respect to its handling of protected memory, as I originally claimed.  This 
defect seems to have been introduced by other elements of Copland which lie 
outside NuKernel.  

Now, can't I have a little fun with the concession, too?  I mean, it really 
doesn't change the fact that Copland's design is horribly broken...
 
> > Now for the 5-year, 1/2 billion dollar question:  If NuKernel design was 
> > abstracted correctly, and it was implemented well enough to host a modern 
OS 
> > complete with protected memory, etc., why, then, is the architecture of 
> > Copland so horribly broken that it can't offer protected memory to GUI 
> > applications, even though the kernel would allow it?  
 
> Because there exist companies like Microsoft. That base their top-selling
> Office software on OLE for Macintosh. OLE peeks into the heaps of other
> processes. It does stuff like walk the (private) window lists of those
> processes. It modifies the (private, read-only) visible and clipping
> structures of those processes. It pokes holes in their clipping
> structures. All so OLE client processes can draw content that looks
> 'embedded' in the fore-process. 

This really is a bummer, and I hadn't thought of the implications of the 
Office suite on the OS design.  You are right, of course.   Micro$oft, of 
course, could always decline to migrate the popular Office applications to a 
new MacOS which had a different architecture and didn't allow these awful 
things to happen to a process.  That would be somewhat bad for Apple, 
possibly so bad even that Apple might have feared it would be world-ending.

OpenStep has changed all that, though.  Rhapsody might wind up producing 
applications that are so cool that nobody *cares* if Office is available on 
the PowerMac or not. 

And that, I'm sure, we all agree on.

> > Is it, as someone previously suggested, because of the "non-reentrant" 
> > MacOS-descended GUI?    Hmm... if that really is the case, why is 
everyone so 
> > hot to have this GUI ported over to Rhapsody?  To cripple Rhapsody, and 
drive 
> > the final nail in Apple's coffin?
> 
> Copland failed for a number of reasons. None of them related to NuKernel. 
 
> As far as the GUI goes, you can't really be so naive, can you? 

No, I'm not.  I was just having fun with that one.  Probably too much fun.  
Sorry.

> A GUI is
> just a pattern of bits on-screen. 'Porting' the Mac GUI really means using
> whatever graphics API Rhapsody ends up using to draw windows, controls,
> etc. according the the Apple advanced look-n-feel. Or, hopefully,
> abstracting the look-n-feel into an Appearance Manager so that it is more
> flexible. In either case, the look of the GUI has nothing to do with the
> kernel, the re-entrancy of the graphics system, memory protection, or
> anything else brought up in this thread.

Yes, I think it's most likely that many of the advanced features from NeXT, 
Copland, and other Apple and NeXT research will be incorporated into a new 
Rhapsody GUI that is wonderful and happy.  It will have so many compelling 
cool things that it will be attractive to MacOS, NeXTSTEP, OS/2, Windows and 
Windows95 users.  That is the cool part of all this.  We all get a modern OS 
with lots of cool new toys that isn't crushed under the M$ hegemony.

I'm already planning to buy a PowerMac to run it on.  I believe that Apple 
should be rewarded for doing the right thing (and mostly I loathe PCs.)

Peace,

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

####################################################################
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From: Ian Joyner 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 10:40:18 +1100
Organization: Unisys
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If you are bored of seeing the same thing go round and round, please
skip this now. Charles really has nothing new to say, but in the
interests of trying to give him an answer, here we go again...

Charles William Swiger wrote:
> 
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 18-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
> Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org
> [ ... ]
> >>> Not exactly. The OS should ask the user/an operator what to do, locate
> >>> the file, kill the process, ignore the file and continue. You have
> >>> quite a few options.
> >>
> >> The operating system does not have the decision-making powers of a
> >> human, and it cannot make a decision between the alternatives you've
> >> listed-- it will only do what it's programmed to do.  Therefore, you've
> >> either got to pick _one_ of the alternatives, or else provide a
> >> deterministic and decidable algorithm that the OS can use to select an
> >> alternative.
> >
> > I think we are saying the same thing now. That is exactly what I am
> > saying, to OS should in many situations consult a human.
> 
> I completely disagree.  With the exception of severe errors due to
> external reasons like hardware failure, the OS should never have to
> consult a human when an error condition occurs; instead, the OS should
> report the error to the process, and let the process decide for itself
> whether human intervention is required.

Let's go back to one of the original examples. You are writing a modest
amount of information to a file, and some other process is chewing up
disk space so that you run out of disk. Quite a few processes could get
hung up on this, so are you going to return an exception to them all?
This is an operations problem, so should be dealt with at that level.
Let's see "operations" ---> "operating system"... get it!

> This allows processes to continue running if the process determines for
> itself that it knows how to proceed after encountering whatever error
> condition happened, instead of always blocking.

You have already solved this problem by suggesting non-blocking
operation.
In the above case a non-blocking write. In that case the application has
told the OS to "go do this, I'm going onto other things." So in this
case
it makes more sense if the disk runs out of space for the OS to get
operators involved to solve the space problem. This saves a lot of
effort in applications programming.

> The OS should report severe errors when they occur, and the OS may
> require human intervention in the face of hardware failure or other
> exceptional conditions, but it is completely inappropriate for the OS to
> require human intervention when an open() call fails because the file
> wasn't found.

Absolutely wrong! It is not "completely inappropriate." As I have said
the file might not be present because of some operations error. Or
the program might have used some file name that is not the right
one. So the operators should be able to make the file present, or
redirect input. Your assertion is "completely inappropriate", I
have disproved your assertion by counter-example.

> Your design suggestion that the OS should always consult a human
> operator even when minor, correctable error conditions occur instead of
> passing errors to the process is completely flawed.

No, I did not say "always." In this case you design into an application
what you want to do. However, by default the OS should handle these
error conditions. What I am saying is make the system calls handle
95% of cases. More advanced applications or system software such as
databases, etc may be coded for concurrency. I don't see how what
I am suggesting can be "completely flawed" as a large class of machines
works this way. When are you going to stop your huffing and puffing?
 
> If an exceptional condition like a drive failure happens, either:
> 
> (a) you've got a RAID system and redundancy already built in and open()
> will be successful because the RAID system provided the needed fault
> tolerance, or
> 
> (b) the drive failure means that the file is gone, and there is nothing
> that can be done to get the file back short of replacing the drive and
> restoring from backups.  Asking the human what to do is futile; 

Wrong again. Humans will get involved in replacing the drive. The
customer will get very annoyed if their process gets suspended
waiting for engineers to arrive, or it gets killed. Humans might
say, "OK I'll copy the backup file to another unit, and redirect
input from there." Or if the backup is on tape perhaps redirect
input from tape. This certainly isn't futile. Unless of course
you are suggesting that providing a better and more robust service
is futile.

Simply put, it is the job of the OS and the operators to keep the
system running.

It should not be the task of an application to have to cater for
myriads of possible exceptions. This greatly complicates applications
development, and the maintenance problem. Applications should address
the problem they are supposed to solve, not systems problems.

> either
> the process can continue without the file, in which case having the OS
> report the error without waiting for the human is superior, or else the
> process cannot continue until the drive is replaced, and again it won't
> matter what the human says to do.

As I said, it does!

> Proof by induction:
> 
> I can design a simple program which does some operation (like an open())
> and is capabable of handling one error which might occur before the
> process decides to give up and terminate.
> 
> Assuming I have a program which handles n error conditions, I can write
> a program which handles n+1 error conditions by adding one operation
> surrounded by an error handler before the program code for the program
> which handles n error conditions.
> 
> If you really want, I can even demonstrate C code for the above, but it
> should be obvious how to implement that.

This proves nothing! (except that you are full of bluster).
 
> > ...but even assuming that it is, that does not mean that OSs should not
> > have better facilities for picking up the many common situations that we
> > are interested in.  OSs that don't handle these situations, and many don't,
> > do not provide an adequate level of robustness.
> 
> So you've been claiming.  Your attempts to demonstrate why this is true
> so far have come down to the suggestion that the OS block waiting on
> human intervention.  Try again.

You have completely misunderstood what I have said. At no point
have I said that the OS blocks. In the case of blocking IO, all this
runs on the application process, so it is only the application that
blocks. That is the OS provides the services, but the services are
actually running on user processes.

> > > (B) even if it was possible, why would you want to bloat the OS with all
> > > of that code when it's simpler and easier to design processes that
> > > perform the error handling that they need?
> >
> > "Bloat", well Unix has already got bloated,
> 
> Do you remember what I told you about provocative comments?
> 
> We've already concluded that you are from Unisys and have certain biases
> for the Unisys operating system, and you are doing a great job of
> displaying a strong bigotry against Unix.

"We've"? Yes it's you and the rest of the world. I think not. Your
form of argument comes down to accusing others of bigotry and
biases, strawman arguments, accusing other of doing exactly what
you are doing. Your argument process is extremely Socratic and
in many cases offensive. I suggest you read "Parallel Thinking"
by Edward De Bono.

I am not bigoted against Unix, but I do not accept that it is the
most modern or useful OS in the world, nor that the rest of the
world should be forced to swallow Unix, because it is not that
good. This is not bigotry only fact.

> Your bigotry is leading you to make patently false claims-- the Unix
> aspects of NEXTSTEP require less disk space than some GUI applications,
> and an order of magnitude less disk space than Microsoft's latest office
> suite.

"False claims"? Where did I say that Nextstep requires more disk space
than some GUI applications and Microsoft's office suite? Stop making
things up. I have made absolutely no false claims. You are very
tiresome,
but I won't be bullied off the topic, and other people shouldn't
be either.

> Because application programs should decide for themselves how to handle
> those problems, because they may decide to do different things depending
> on complex state behavior that is not readily available to the operating
> system itself.

In fact it is the other way around. The OS can in most cases decide
better how to handle most of these errors. That's what an OS is
for. Let the OS handle the system, so that applications can
handle their specific problem.
 
> > That adds to the code that a programmer must produce; means you have
> > maintenance problems to handle all the cases; means you have testing
> > problems to test all the cases; means you have just made every project
> > much more expensive to complete (well most projects get killed anyway);
> > and means you have missed the fundamentals of reuse.
> 
> Don't try to tell me about code reuse and designing error handling systems.

Judging from the above, that's exactly what you need to be taught! Go
back 
to your class and open your mind up, and learn some lessons. Perhaps you 
need to think about what is the difference between applications and
systems programming.

> I was the primary author of a popular NEXTSTEP product called
> CrashCatcher, which only required the addition of one line to the
> original source code in order to augment an Objective-C program with
> quite sophisticated error handling functionality.  Of course, the
> developer could add a little more code and be able to perform
> arbitrarily complex error handling behavior within a framework that was
> well-debugged, modular, and extensible.

So does this mean you have biases?

> > To explain the interface is still the same. The open call remains the
> > same. What I suggest is to reevaluate the contract of the call, and
> > determine that much of what needs to be done is common, and
> > therefore should not be on the calling side of the interface. In fact
> > if you think about it many errors cannot be handled by the application,
> > they have to be handled between the OS and the operator.
> 
> Nonsense.  The only errors that must be handled between the OS and the
> operator are severe errors like hardware failure, and they generally
> require human intervention for the simple and practical reason that
> there is no way for any layer of software (whether it be the process or
> the kernel) to recover.

You are yet again repeating yourself. You say "only errors are hardware
errors". I have said that file not present is an operational error, 
depending on how the application has asked for it. Operational
errors should clearly be handled between OS, and operator. However,
the OS in this case IS an extension of the application process, a point
which you have clearly missed. If resources such as disk become
full, it is an operations problem, not an exception that applications
should in general have to code around.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joyner       | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are
Internet email:  |  for a kingdom, the gentler       | personal and are
i.joyner@acm.org |  gamester is the soonest winner"  | not Unisys
                 |       William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 23 Feb 1997 23:42:30 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <5eqkl6$pfr@news.platinum.com>
References:  <5ebg1m$1en@news3.digex.net> 
	 <5eeu62$76s@qnx.com> 
	  
	<5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>  
	<5enmc3$bra@news.platinum.com> <7fafow55ed.thoron@argo.patnet.caltech.edu> 
	<5eqfe8$pfr@news.platinum.com> <5eqh6i$bf7@q.seanet.com>
Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
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Must be the pretzels...
I'll have to remember that...

;^)

/gary

In <5eqh6i$bf7@q.seanet.com> it appeared that Boshon Sprague wrote:
> Let me step out on a limb here and comment on the fact that we apparently 
> have a large number of unemployed microkernel designers posting. I was at 
one 
> of many next PR sessions where a (somewhat) noted OO jornalist tried to 
nail 
> down a OS point with the Nexter doing the session, something like this:
> 
> Press : I dont see the benfits in your presentation of the (mach) OS 
> perfomace issue with object communication.
> 
> Nexter : This is the best overall solution for 99% of the performance 
issuse.
> 
> Press : You don't really understand what OS issues exist (outside of next  
> (M$))
> 
> Next : What is your background in OS design?
> 
> Press : None....
> 
> Nexter : I personnaly hold over 25 specific patents in OS design in my 
> careeer before next, and i feel this is THE BEST system overall ever.
> 
> Press : But how?....
> 
> Nexter : Must be the pretzels.
> 
> 
> once again, Listen to my words, dont worry we are going to get ALL of the 
> good technology That can be stuffed into this new apple pie.
> 
> Boshon 
> 


--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

####################################################################
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 22 Feb 97 21:24:56
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In article <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>,
	gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) writes:
   > In article ,
   >	shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
   > > Unless I've _greatly_ misread a variety of papers, microkernels
   > > are coming into their own because we are asking entirely too
   > > much of our monolithic kernels.  The amount of effort it takes
   > > to add something new to your monolithic kernel is often so
   > > great that you never get around to it - and thus a microkernel
   > > can be more efficient in the end.  In essence, using a
   > > microkernel lets you get to a better design for the system
   > > faster than a monolithic kernel, so it wins in the end.

   Which says nothing about the  of the kernel.  What everyone
   seems to forget is that  isn't everything.  Microkernels are
   best defined in terms of how the kernel design is abstracted -- not
   the size of the binary.

   If several different parts, properly abstracted, are compiled into
   the same binary, you really have a hybrid micro-monolith kernel --
   which is what damned near every vendor is shipping today.  Like
   NeXT, they are all using dynamically loaded device drivers, but the
   core OS server is compiled into the same binary with the
   microkernel.

Actually, I'd argue size comes into play, too, if only indirectly.  If
the vendor does things in microkernel terms internally, but turns
around and compiles everything into a monolithic kernel for the
outside world, most of the functionality is lost, at least to the
outside world.  The power of a microkernel isn't so much that it lets
the _vendor_ make changes easily, though that's nice.  The power of
microkernels should be that it lets outside programmers add their own
pagers, filesystems, and whatnot, without having to do High And Mighty
Black Magic to accomplish it.

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:20:38 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
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References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>  <5eo65r$53l@lal.interserv.com> 
 <856715712.25573@dejanews.com>
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In <<856715712.25573@dejanews.com>>, 
mark@oaai.com wrote:

>[Redirected to comp.sys.*.programmer]

>Just wanted to point out two things:

>* Direct access to member variables (instance variables) under Objective
>C is allowed, but is rarely used in practice:


>{
>  MyFoo *f = [[MyFoo alloc] init];
>  f->bar = 6.0;
>}

	So does C++, but it's use  too, is not encouraged.  And, with inline
functions, is rarely needed, ie,
inline MyFoo::SetBar(float b) { bar = b;}
	:
	MyFoo *f = new MyFoo;
	f.SetBar(6.0);

will produced object code identical to what yours would.



>* For operations that are performed repeatedly, in a tight loop for
>instance, Objective C provides a mechanism for retrieving the function
>pointer corresponding to a method. This is more commonly used when an
>application is being tuned:

>{
>  int i;
>  IMP setIMethod;
>  MyFoo *f = [[MyFoo alloc] init];

>  // retreive the function pointer corresp. to -[MyFoo setI:]
>  setIMethod = [f methodForSelector:@selector(setI:)];

>  for (i = 0; i < 100000; i++) {
>   // call the function. In ObjC, methods take "self" from the first
>   // argument and _cmd from the second.
>    setIMethod(f, @selector(setI:), i);
>  }
>}


	Which is just foisting off on to the programmer, things that the
compiler should be able to do, but can't do to requirement of the
language spec.

	Now, let us assume that f is actually an array of MyFoos.  Hence the
equilvant c++ code is just:

	int	i;
	MyFoo	*f = new MyFoo[100000];
	for (i=0; i < 10000; i++)
		f[i].setl(i);		// equilavent to MyFoo_setl(f[i], i);
				// as efficent as any simply
				// function call.

	Next, let us assume that f is an array of objects of various classes
all derived from MyFoo, each with a different setl member function.
Here all I'd have to do is  declare the setl function in the MyFoo
class definition as "virtual".  The code example above stays the same 

	int	i;
	MyFoo	*f = GetArrayOfMyFooObject();
	for (i=0; i < 10000; i++)
		f[i].setl(i);		// equilavent to (f[i].setl)(f[i], i);
				// as efficent as any function-through-
				// point call.

In effeciency, this is the same as your first example, (which wouldn't
work in this example).  It also has a much cleaner syntax..

       Truth,
       James

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From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 24 Feb 1997 01:48:30 GMT
Organization: MHPCC
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Message-ID: <5eqs1e$3rb@kaopala.mhpcc.edu>
References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> 
	<32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com>  
	  
	  
	<1997021700592626089546@roxboro-177.interpath.net> <0n2_gV200iV7I5aJdw@andrew.cmu.edu> 
	<19970220100923348851@roxboro-169.interpath.net>  
	<5ej0nn$6t6@kaopala.mhpcc.edu> <5eka0c$98d@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de>
Reply-To: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg)
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In <5eka0c$98d@bias.ipc.uni-tuebingen.de> Frank M. Siegert wrote:
> Copy your Sonata font on a Macintosh HFS Disk 1.44 MByte as plain file (it 
> should have the 'Shaded A' icon for a PS font), get my FontConvert.app from 
> peanuts.leo.org or next-ftp.peak.org, install and start in on your NeXT 
> (Running NS 3.x or OS 4.x). Insert and mount your Mac Disk, show FontConvert 
> the font, it should be able to convert it painlessly and will calculate a 
> suitable AFM file in the process... 
> 
> BTW FontConvert.app is 
> freeware/send-me-some-money-if-you-really-like-it-ware, the next release will 
> be using the CAP (Appletalk) file name scheme for resource and finderinfo 
> data, so you can directly use a network mounted Appleshare'ed volume.
> 
> 

I had tried FontConvert.app before on a converted *.rsrc file, and it crashes my 
Window Server.  Using FontConvert.app on the file on the Mac HFS disk did the 
trick.  A kind soul sent me the properly converted files.  But I still don't 
have the converted bitmap files that came with the Adobe distribution.
Thanks.
--

=======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.

Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office:	Maui High Performance Computing Center
	550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100
	Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone:	(808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu 
Web:	http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
=======================================================================

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From: akac@mail.utexas.edu (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 21:13:42 -0600
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In article <5enmc3$bra@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary
W. Longsine) wrote:

: In  it appeared 
: that Mark Eaton wrote:
: > In article <5eldq2$kj@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary
: > W. Longsine) wrote:
: > 
: > > 
: > > Then you haven't got a clue.  NuKernel should have been scrapped before
: > > a single line of code was written.  Protected memory, but only for 
: certain, 
: > > "special" processes?  What a crock of sh*t.  
: > 
: > Whats really a crock of sh*t is when you make an off the cuff statement
: > like that without really knowing whether its true or not. When you do that,
: > you're no better than Lawson English...
: 
: That's a pretty low blow, especially since I've provided some pretty clear 
: documentation, from Copland-friendly sources, to back up my claim.
:  
: > (FYI- NuKernel does not extend memory protection just to certain, "special"
: > processes...)
: 
: Wrong.  Plainly, clearly, demonstrably, incontestably wrong.  Ordinary 
: Copland applications, even brand new ones written for the Copeland OS, are 
:  to share the same memory pool -- not just the legacy System 7 apps 
: (as is the case with the new Blue Box.)
: 
: COMEDY BREAK:  
: Tai-Kwon-Leap Master:  Who disrupts our meditation as a pebble disturbs the 
: pond?  
: Tai-Kwon-Leap Student:  Ooh! ooh! Me!  Ed Gruberman!
: 
: I'm so shocked at the tremendous waste of resources that went into the 
: backward architecture of Copland that I tend to emote on the topic -- sorry.  
: 
: I just don't understand why anyone would spend almost half a billion dollars, 
: and over 5 years on OS research (Pink, Taligent, Copland) and fail to grok 
: something so basic as a rational protected memory scheme.  (I also don't 
: understand why people are so infatuated with a research kernel (Copland's 
: NuKernel) that's never seen the production light of day and doesn't offer an 
: improvement over kernels that I've been using for years... but that's another 
: topic.)
: 
: Again, I suggest that you check out the Apple Press book on Copland.  It was 
: written by folks friendly to the Copland project, and states in clear, 
: matter-of-fact language how the OS was to work.
: 
: "MacOS 8 Revealed:  A Technical Tour of the New Mac OS", Tony Francis, ISBN 
: 0-201-47955-9, Apple Press, August 1996.  
: 

Sir, this book and ALL the claims about are about the OS in general. After
reading all of your posts, you obviously do not know a kernel based OS
works. The NuKernal supported protected memory, SMP, threads, and
pre-emptive multitasking. That is the kernel. Now how the actual OS (it
sits atop the kernel) uses that kernel is a different matter. Apple could
have used the AIX kernel and still had the same problem. The reason?
Because the actual OS only used what it needed from the kernel. It told the
kernel, I am setting up a protected memory partition for ALL apps, one for
servers, and one for networking/OS things. The kernel obeyed. 

It is like have a whole yard of wood, nails, metal girders, construction
workers, and all the supplies to build a skyscraper and only using what you
need to build a small house.

The kernel did provide full protected memory to weild however the OS asked
it to. It just so happened that the Copland OS was going to give
applications no protection.
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From: nspace@cts.com (Jerry Stratton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 19:28:39 -0800
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In article <19970221004435207619@roxboro-184.interpath.net>,
phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
>] That's kind of what I meant..  You can't choose to open by file type
>] _OVER_ file creator.  If the file creator data is there, and the file
>] creator app exists on that machine, you MUST use it.  You cannot
>] choose a file type application OVER that creator app.  I didn't say
>] you can't open by file type at all.  I simply said the Mac doesn't
>] give you a choice between the two -- if creator exists you use it,
>] otherwise you use type... no choice.

Well, it does give you a choice. If the application you want is visible,
and that application tells the operating system it can handle that file
type, you can drag & drop onto that application. This works regardless of
whether or not the owning application exists.

Perhaps it would be nice to have an additional "File" menu item which
forces Easy Open to query the operating system for all apps that claim to
handle the file type. On the other hand, I can't honestly think of a time
when I wanted to open a file by other than the creator when e desired app
wasn't already visible, generally in the launcher.

Jerry
jerry@hoboes.com   
http://www.hoboes.com/                   e-mail help@hoboes.com
      What Your Children Are Doing: http://www.hoboes.com/Children/
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 10:41:09 -0600
From: mark@oaai.com
Subject: Re: Objective C?
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[Redirected to comp.sys.*.programmer]

Just wanted to point out two things:

* Direct access to member variables (instance variables) under Objective
C is allowed, but is rarely used in practice:


{
  MyFoo *f = [[MyFoo alloc] init];
  f->bar = 6.0;
}

* For operations that are performed repeatedly, in a tight loop for
instance, Objective C provides a mechanism for retrieving the function
pointer corresponding to a method. This is more commonly used when an
application is being tuned:

{
  int i;
  IMP setIMethod;
  MyFoo *f = [[MyFoo alloc] init];

  // retreive the function pointer corresp. to -[MyFoo setI:]
  setIMethod = [f methodForSelector:@selector(setI:)];

  for (i = 0; i < 100000; i++) {
   // call the function. In ObjC, methods take "self" from the first
   // argument and _cmd from the second.
    setIMethod(f, @selector(setI:), i);
  }
}

Regards,
Mark

---
M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Software Systems for the U.S. and Canadian Financial Industries.
15 La Rose Ave. Suite 702, Weston Ontario M9P 1A7 (416)241-3076

In article ,
  petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
>
> In article <5eo65r$53l@lal.interserv.com>,
> James M. Curran  wrote:
> >	To carry your example a bit further, since all the functions are
> >defined inline, the machine code generated for this how be EXACTLY the
> >same as it would be if you had written it was:
>
> >petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:
> >[I modified this a bit to make it a better example]
>
> >>for (int i=0; i >>	B.val(i) = Complex(A.val(i) + A.val(i+1), 0);
>
> Or:
>
> for (int i=0; i 	B.val(i).real = A.val(i) + A.val(i+1);
> 	B.val(i).imag = 0;
> }
>
> 	[C translation deleted -- it was not nearly as elegant]
>
> >	It allows for remarkable control of the generate code, which is why C
> >and now C++ is the defacto standard in systems programming.
>
> 	I may add that I started out programming with Fortran, which has
> built-in arrays (also a feature of Java), so that's why constructing a
> good array class has been critical for me.
>
> 	[Objective C version...]
>
> >-(id) val:(int) index
> >{
> >	return(Contents[index]);
> >}
>
> >void set:(int) index, (id) value;
> >{
> >	Contents[index] = value;
> >}
> >....
>
> 	What is especially interesting here is that one cannot do
> call-by-reference in Objective C, as one can on C++, thus requiring both
> separate functions for transmitting and receiving values (val, set).
> OTOH, with C++, one can imitate Fortran/Java arrays much more successfully
> ("val" both transmits and receives values, thanx to its call by
> reference), and be able to have such constructs as CntList.val(i)++ .
>
> 	[confusing Objective C syntax...]
>
> 	I agree that C++'s
>
> object.method(arg)
>
> is a more natural extension of plain C than ObjC's
>
> [object method: arg]
>
> -- the C++ approach treats classes as an extension of structs, and methods
> as a kind of function.
>
> >	And, in constrast to the C++, which require NO function calls in the
> >loop, the Objective C require at least 6, plus three table look-ups,
> >per iteration!
>
> 	This means that ObjC objects will not be very good for *anything*
> that has to be done a large number of times.
>
> >	So, for the advantage of run-time object binding (a requirement of
> >"pure" OOP, but unnecessary in 99.999999% of all OOP programs), you
> >must put up with a contorted syntax, barely any type safety at all and
> >significant run-time speed & space penalties.   (C++'s syntax grew
> >naturally out of C, is incredibly strict about type safety, and design
> >to have absolutely NO speed or space penalty over C or even
> >assembler).
>
> 	However, runtime method resolution is OK if one does not have to
> do it very often, and it also helps get around the Fragile Base Class
> problem. Thus, it could be useful for implementing some OS services --
> creating a window or a dialog box or a network connection or a thread is
> not something that happens very frequently by computer-chip standards.
>
> 	The Fragile Base Class problem is a serious one for implementing
> OS services, since these will generally need to be upgraded to add
> features, fix bugs, speed them up, etc. -- Be, Inc. has been
> much-criticized for implementing the bulk of the BeOS's API in C++.
>
> 	IMO, the best possibility would be to have Objective C++ -- so it
> will be possible to use whichever sort of construct is appropriate for
> the problem at hand.
> --
> Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
> petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
> My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
> Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype!
Date: 23 Feb 1997 17:52:47 GMT
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> I've put a fair amount of time into scoping the amount of work
> involved in porting some real applications onto OpenStep only
> to find that the common classes List, HashTable etc all gone
> from the OpenStep spec.
> 
> Arrrrgh!
List and HashTable could be re-implemented or borrowed from GNUStep.  The 
issue that probably sealed their fate was reference counting.  I think the 
HashTable functions are still in OpenStep.
You will need to manage your own reference counts.
 
> These where useful, tightly written classes that surely would
> not have been to much effort to port to OpenStep (even inheriting
> from NSObject( but no, we are told we must use the impossible to 
> subclass NSMutableDictionary and NSArray class clusters.
They are not exacly impossible to subclass.

> While I'm at it lets keep strings as a data type rather than a class.
> A char * can go along using dodgy features like a reference count at
> (char *)string[-1]. EOF would be a good deal simpler and faster if
> NSString hadn't been invented. Dates have loads of complex behaviour
> and justify being a class strings are better kept as a datatype.

Strings have loads of complex behavior and justify being a class.  Of course, 
feel free to use char *s as much as you want.  OpenStep is happy to accept 
char *s via [NSString stringWithCString:].
Just remember that OpenStep is based on reference counting.  In NeXTstep, 
most of the string related methods HAD to copy their data to prevent memory 
errors.  For example: when you used the -setTitle: method, you were often 
unnecessarily duplicating a string.  Furthermore, when the string was 
something dynamic (like a file system path), more and more memory management 
issues came into play.  If the string was distributed via DO, there were 
problems.  The NSString class nicely encapsulates all of these issued and 
nearly eliminates all string related memory issues.  NSStrings also provide 
an opportunity to use less overall memory by safely allowing immutable string 
sharing.

Objective-C still has its roots in C.  Nothing stops you from using char * or 
casting ints as pointers etc.  It is just considered bad style (error 
prone!).

Also "using dodgy features like a reference count at (char *)string[-1]" is 
extremely "dodgy!".  This kind of game is exactly what encapsulation is meant 
to hide.  How much memory should I allocate for a string intended for use by 
another object given your "spotty" reference count scheme ?  What if I don't 
have access to the source code for the other objects ?

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From: Norbert Heger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype!
Date: 24 Feb 1997 08:22:37 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
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Erik M. Buck  wrote:
> -performWith:afterDelay:cancelPrevious: can be simulated with
> NSTimer and NSNotification

What's wrong about using NSObject's:

- (void)performSelector:(SEL)aSelector 
	object:(id)anArgument 
	afterDelay:(NSTimeInterval)delay;

+ (void)cancelPreviousPerformRequestsWithTarget:(id)aTarget
	selector:(SEL)aSelector
	object:(id)anArgument

- N.C.
_________________________________________________________________
Norbert C. Heger 
NEXTSTEP / OpenStep Software Development

NeXTmail preferred, MIME is welcome
Please finger for PGP public key
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From: van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
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Julien Jalon (Julien Jalon (jalon@drakkar.ens.fr)) wrote:
: In article , Peter Moller  wrote:
: >jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) writes:
: [...problem with a NeXT...]
: >"Checking System Resources" came up and then nothing. A manual told me to
: >press ctrl-alt-q (or something) the get a shelltool and see what was happening.
: >It was waiting for a DNS-server. And it waited and it waited. Very intuitive.
: >Very non-unix.
:
: If this happen on a Mac (and it happens often) : the system doesn't
: boot and you can't do almost anything, even if you are an advanced user, and
: sometimes you have to reinstall the system.

Actually I boot from the CD and run Disk First Aid to fix it. Did so last 
night for the first time on my home machine.

(Another thing is to carve a small partition with a minimal system and
disk repair software. If your main partition volume doesn't boot, it finds 
the next one and you're all set to run diagnostics.)

Van
-- 
Van Bagnol / van@crl.com / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing / Parachuting
Hawksbill Capital Management / (707) 575-7077 / (707) 575-8334 fax
"Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" 
"An Error is not a Mistake...until you refuse to correct it."
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From: piers@ilink.de (Piers Uso Walter)
Subject: Q: How to load submenus from nibs
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Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 01:55:27 GMT
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I'm working on an old 3.3 application that has not yet been converted  
to Openstep and would like to dynamically attach submenus loaded from a  
nib file. I've experimented with Menu's setSubmenu:forItem: method  
which seems to work OK if I programmatically create the new submenu.

I want to create the submenu in InterfaceBuilder and load it from a nib  
file, however. I thought of two ways how to try to do this:
 - use a "second" menu from the main nib file
 - use the "main" menu of a second nib file

I cannot get the first way to work as there seems to be no way to  
create a "second" menu in InterfaceBuilder.

While trying the second way I run into a different problem: apparently  
loading the second nib file (containing a "main" menu) will set this  
nib file's menu to be the main menu of my application (which I don't  
want). Is there a way to prevent this?

If anybody knows of a way to do this (dynamically attach an  
IB-generated submenu), please let me know.

Piers

--
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
"I think people are happy using Windows, and that's an
 extremely depressing thought."
                                       -= Steve Jobs, 1/96 =-
Piers Uso Walter
ilink GmbH
piers@ilink.de
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From: piers@ilink.de (Piers Uso Walter)
Subject: Re: Q: How to load submenus from nibs
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References: 
Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 04:08:42 GMT
Lines: 41

In article  I wrote:
> 
> I'm working on an old 3.3 application that has not yet been converted  
> to Openstep and would like to dynamically attach submenus loaded from
> a nib file. I've experimented with Menu's setSubmenu:forItem: method  
> which seems to work OK if I programmatically create the new submenu.
> 
> I want to create the submenu in InterfaceBuilder and load it from a
> nib file, however. I thought of two ways how to try to do this:
>  - use a "second" menu from the main nib file
>  - use the "main" menu of a second nib file
> 
> I cannot get the first way to work as there seems to be no way to  
> create a "second" menu in InterfaceBuilder.
> 
> While trying the second way I run into a different problem:
> apparently loading the second nib file (containing a "main" menu)
> will set this nib file's menu to be the main menu of my application
> (which I don't want). Is there a way to prevent this?
> 
> If anybody knows of a way to do this (dynamically attach an  
> IB-generated submenu), please let me know.

I found a working solution (albeit a very clumsy one):

In IB I set up the new menu A as a submenu of an existing submenu B  
(effectively hiding menu A upon startup). Now I can do all menu  
shuffling that I want without having to create menu A in Objective-C.

As long as I make sure that menu A is removed from menu B before menu B  
is opened, no harm is done by "temporarily storing" menu A in menu B.

Piers

--
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
"I think people are happy using Windows, and that's an
 extremely depressing thought."
                                       -= Steve Jobs, 1/96 =-
piers@iqweb.de
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From: Erik Doernenburg 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Bring back List, HashTable classes and string datatype!
Date: 24 Feb 1997 10:15:36 GMT
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embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> > [...]
> > While I'm at it lets keep strings as a data type rather than a class.
> > A char * can go along using dodgy features like a reference count at
> > (char *)string[-1]. EOF would be a good deal simpler and faster if
> > NSString hadn't been invented. Dates have loads of complex behaviour
> > and justify being a class strings are better kept as a datatype.
> 
> Strings have loads of complex behavior and justify being a class.  

I can only second that. Just a simple example: Suppose you have a string 
which contains 50k characters. Say you want to insert 10 characters in the 
middle. How effeciently can you do that using C-Strings? Using a string class 
and some clever memory management you can do that in O(1) whithout even 
having to copy anything!

Okay, this is just an example, but I can say that I've used NeXT's String and 
Data classes in a couple of projects involving biggish amounts of data and I 
was always positively suprised about the speed and the amount of optimisation 
that takes place behind the scenes. 

regards,
erik


-- 
Erik Drnenburg   
OBJECT FACTORY Gesellschaft fr Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
http://www.object-factory.com 

		    
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From: doug@qnx.com (Doug Santry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 24 Feb 1997 09:23:30 -0500
Organization: QNX Software Systems
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In article ,
Ryan Tokarek   wrote:
>On 22 Feb 1997, Michael Kagalenko wrote:
>
>> Ryan Tokarek  (tokarek@students.uiuc.edu) wrote 
>> ]
>> ]> <> Open Transport
>> ]
>> ]What's wrong with OpenTransport? Do you understand its primary purpose?
>> 
>>  I don't. Perhpas, you could explain ? Is it yet another proprietary 
>>  standard ?
>
>As I understand it (and I do not know the details so people with more 
>knowledge of OT step in here), OpenTransport provides a network-neutral 
>API. Programs can use the various OT APIs to deal with networking, and 
>they won't need to know which networking standard is being used (TCP/IP, 
>IPX, AppleTalk, whatever). It adds a layer of abstraction that can be 
>used to send infromation over any network with the app having to know 
>the nature or details of the network. 
>
>You can use OpenTransport to deal with specific details of a certain 
>network protocol, but OpenTransport provides the tools to deal with any 
>network (that OpenTransport is configured for) without the app having to 
>know which one. 
>
>Taking a look at the info on TCP for OpenTransport (in the Control 
>Panel), it appears to be based on "Mentat Portable Streams" and 
>"Mentat TCP"... if that's meaningful to you (it isn't to me).
>
>I don't know whether there is an equivalent in NeXTStep, but that's 
>roughly what OpenTransport does. I don't know whether it would be 
>advantageous to port it over to Rhapsody, but it it's the Mac's current 
>networking API.

Why not the socket API?  Would make porting lots 'o stuff easier and it
is well known/documented.

DJS
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From: cb@guinan.mm.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: File System - a thought
Date: 24 Feb 1997 14:38:58 GMT
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Lines: 103
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On the subject of File Systems.

I am an owner/user of a 25MHz 68040 NeXTcube, and a sometime-user of a
variety of different Macintoshen (plus an assortment of different
unices, Linux, etc). I Have looked with great interest upon the BeBox,
but decided that one piece of obsolete hardware was enough for me :)

Now, in Unix, and thus in the Unix-based NEXTSTEP and OpenStep, a file
is a file, with only one 'fork', which simply contains the data of the
file. In order to group several different, distinct, chunks of data
together, we place all these chunks in a directory, which is presented
to the user as if it were in fact a single file -- this is what is
known as a 'Wrapper'. Macintoshen on the other hand let each file
contain two different forks: one for that data of the file itself, and
one for 'resources' -- i.e., other chunks of data which are not the
_main_ data of the file, but still somehow connected _to_ the
file. One thing that is put here is the Creator / Type information --
where Creator and Type are 'codes' of 32 bits each.

Problems with the Mac approach:

* The Creator and Type codes are limited in range, and incompatible
with the NIME type system that is getting more and more accepted with
the spreading of the WWW.

* Accessing resources ('data chunks' in the resource fork) requires an
API beyond that of 'normal' file manipulation; this also means that
Creator and Type information are only accessible through specialized
software (which is, admittedly, extremely prevalent)

* storing a file that has a resource fork on a file system that does
not support such, requires interesting convolutions, such as
AppleSingle or AppleDouble. They work, though.

Problems with the NeXT approach:

* File type information is stored in the name of the file -- which is
the wrong place to store filetype information. Also, this info is,
again, not compatible with MIME types.

* If I want to add out-of-band information to a file which is not
already in a wrapper, I have to _create_ a wrapper, move the file into
it, and add the additional o-o-b info there. This means that I must
transform a file into a directory -- not _really_ an intuitive thing
to do.


Now, I must confess that my bias makes me lean towards the 'Wrapper'
approach, as it has less problems, and is more extensible, and uses
fewer different API:s, than the 'multiple fork' approach.

But what still bugs me is that, unlike on Macintoshen, there is no
easy way to add metadata or whatever to a file, without rather
violently modifying the way that file is stored.

Basically, I think that the Unix:y distinction between Files and
Directories should go away.

In this way, a file would indeed have two 'forks' -- one 'data' fork,
and one 'directory' fork. The 'data' part gets accessed with the usual
file API -- open(), lseek(), read(), write(), close(). The 'directory'
part has its own, pre-existing API -- opendir(), readdir(), seekdir(),
closedir(). All Unix:y programs that deal with files & directories
still work _almost_ the same way; except those that differentiate
between files and directories would have to be rewritten to take into
account the case where a file is _both_.

This gets rid of the problem of adding o-o-b data to a file -- each
file is, in this scheme, its own wrapper. The UI would store any
information it feels like in a pre-determined file inside the wrapper
-- like it is done today under NEXTSTEP.

However, we gain the problem of backwards-compatibility with standard
Unix filesystems, that most certainly do _not_ implement this. Here,
we would have to go through much smaller convolutions than for
AppleSingle or AppleDouble, however: we 'simply' put the 'data fork'
inside the wrapper, with some reserved name -- the way we already do
today under NEXTSTEP when we put a file in a wrapper, so this would
actually be backwards-compatible.

File type / creator / whatever information would now be placed where
it should be, in a 'resource' inside the wrapper for each file. Those
files that don't _need_ such information, also don't have to carry it
around with them. And each resource is quite accessible through the
usual File / Directory API:s, and quite obviously the usual File
System browsing techniques as well -- be they a Browser, a bunch of
windows, a CLI, or whatever. Also, this way, resources can be
symlinked -- so we can save space by sharing resources between
different files.

I'm afraid my ramblings will bring down the wrath of Those Who
Know(TM) upon me, and I am sorry my mind is such a mess and my writing
so bad, but I hope this can be, at least, an inspiration for
continuing constructive discussion :)

Best regards,

// Christian Brunschen


-- 
--
Christian Brunschen                                                    cb@mm.se
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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOModeler 2.0 ....
Date: 24 Feb 1997 15:44:04 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
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Hi all,

I try to use EOMOdeler with EOF2.0.
Lots of thing have been modified (compare with EOF1.0) but i can't find how,
to do actions than i did before with EOF1.0 !!

1. I don't see the synonyms and views ?
2. If i remove a table of my model, how can i import it back in my model ?

Thanks for your help


YANNICK

-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy, comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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[ ...followups redirected, some programming groups snipped... ]


Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 24-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org 
> If you are bored of seeing the same thing go round and round, please
> skip this now. Charles really has nothing new to say, but in the
> interests of trying to give him an answer, here we go again...

"Crude and slow, clansman.  Your attack was no better than that of a
clumsy child...."

Do you really think that you're going to fool anyone with this kind of
stuff, Ian?  Even if you refuse to grant me any credit at all, don't you
think the other readers on these newsgroups can see through this gauche
little ploy of yours?  C'mon.
  
[ ... ]
>>>> The operating system does not have the decision-making powers of a
>>>> human, and it cannot make a decision between the alternatives you've
>>>> listed-- it will only do what it's programmed to do.  Therefore, you've
>>>> either got to pick _one_ of the alternatives, or else provide a
>>>> deterministic and decidable algorithm that the OS can use to select an
>>>> alternative.
>>>
>>> I think we are saying the same thing now. That is exactly what I am
>>> saying, to OS should in many situations consult a human.
>> 
>> I completely disagree.  With the exception of severe errors due to
>> external reasons like hardware failure, the OS should never have to
>> consult a human when an error condition occurs; instead, the OS should
>> report the error to the process, and let the process decide for itself
>> whether human intervention is required.
>  
> Let's go back to one of the original examples. You are writing a modest
> amount of information to a file, and some other process is chewing up
> disk space so that you run out of disk. Quite a few processes could get
> hung up on this, so are you going to return an exception to them all?

Yes.

> This is an operations problem, so should be dealt with at that level.
> Let's see "operations" ---> "operating system"... get it!

I hate to break up such a nice connection, but it refers to a period
back in the 60's and 70's where computers required full-time operators
in order to keep feeding them Hollerith punched cards.  The majority of
computers have been designed to run without continuous human attendence
for almost 20 years now.

Your whole theory is based off of the assumption that a human will
always be around to tell the machine what to do when it encounters a
problem.  Current operating systems are designed to not require human
intervention for normal processing and minor errors.  There are lots of
machines running unattended nowadays, and any general purpose operating
system has to be able to run such an unattended system.

>> This allows processes to continue running if the process determines for
>> itself that it knows how to proceed after encountering whatever error
>> condition happened, instead of always blocking.
>  
> You have already solved this problem by suggesting non-blocking
> operation.

So you do acknowledge that I was the first to bring up the issue of
non-blocking I/O.  

> In the above case a non-blocking write. In that case the application has
> told the OS to "go do this, I'm going onto other things." So in this
> case it makes more sense if the disk runs out of space for the OS to get
> operators involved to solve the space problem. This saves a lot of
> effort in applications programming.

There's that false assumption that 'there will always be an operator' again.
  
>> The OS should report severe errors when they occur, and the OS may
>> require human intervention in the face of hardware failure or other
>> exceptional conditions, but it is completely inappropriate for the OS to
>> require human intervention when an open() call fails because the file
>> wasn't found.
>  
> Absolutely wrong! It is not "completely inappropriate." As I have said
> the file might not be present because of some operations error. Or
> the program might have used some file name that is not the right
> one. So the operators should be able to make the file present, or
> redirect input. Your assertion is "completely inappropriate", I
> have disproved your assertion by counter-example.

No, you have proved that you didn't understand my assertion.

Read what I said again, and pay close attention to the word "require". 
I did _not_ say that having the OS ask for human intervention is
inappropriate for all circumstances.

However, the example of an unattended server machine is one example
where where the OS should never ask for human intervention because an
open() call failed.  Having the OS be _required_ to ask for human
intervention is completely inappropriate in the case of an unattended
server.

Furthermore, I assert that general purpose operating systems should be
designed to not perform completely inappropriate responses to common
situations.

>> Your design suggestion that the OS should always consult a human
>> operator even when minor, correctable error conditions occur instead of
>> passing errors to the process is completely flawed.
>  
> No, I did not say "always."

The operating system does not have judgement.  Either it's programmed to
ask for human intervention, or it's not.  Regardless of how complex an
error handling behavior you design into the OS, there will still exist
applications which will want different behavior from what the OS will
do, and will therefore have to implement their own error handling
themselves.

Rather than design an error handling mechanism into an OS which is
completely inappropriate for some common tasks, modern operating systems
are designed to perform the greatest common subset of error handling
behavior which is appropriate for all tasks.

For an example, the OS should be designed to retry I/O operations
several times when a "soft" drive error occurs without raising an error,
since this is appropriate for all tasks.

[ ... ]
> Simply put, it is the job of the OS and the operators to keep the
> system running.

Unattended machines do not have operators!  An OS which is required to
rely on the availability of a human operator is not a general-purpose OS.

>> Proof by induction:
>> 
>> I can design a simple program which does some operation (like an open())
>> and is capabable of handling one error which might occur before the
>> process decides to give up and terminate.
>> 
>> Assuming I have a program which handles n error conditions, I can write
>> a program which handles n+1 error conditions by adding one operation
>> surrounded by an error handler before the program code for the program
>> which handles n error conditions.
>> 
>> If you really want, I can even demonstrate C code for the above, but it
>> should be obvious how to implement that.
>  
> This proves nothing! (except that you are full of bluster).

This _is_ rich.  First, you make a claim without providing any shred of
justification-- "proof by assertion" again, and then you claim that
_I'm_ "full of bluster".

Sorry, but you're wrong on both counts.

I just proved that I can design a process which will require a form of
error handling which the OS cannot possibly perform by itself.  There
will be always be tasks which have to perform their own error handling
because it is impossible to write an OS in finite time or space that
could handle all error conditions without interacting with the process
which encountered the error.

>> So you've been claiming.  Your attempts to demonstrate why this is true
>> so far have come down to the suggestion that the OS block waiting on
>> human intervention.  Try again.
>  
> You have completely misunderstood what I have said.  At no point
> have I said that the OS blocks.

How quickly you've managed to forget my real world example of how having
the OS ask for user input can lead to deadlock!  Remember the case of
DPS encountering an error, and therefore being unable to display the
alert panel required to obtain user feedback.

No doubt you've love to forget anything and everything that could
possibly contradict your precious assertions, but you're not going to
win any arguments that way.....

>> Your bigotry is leading you to make patently false claims-- the Unix
>> aspects of NEXTSTEP require less disk space than some GUI applications,
>> and an order of magnitude less disk space than Microsoft's latest office
>> suite.
>  
> "False claims"? Where did I say that Nextstep requires more disk space
> than some GUI applications and Microsoft's office suite?

You said "Unix is bloated".  That is a false claim.

In order to refute your false claim, I showed the actual size that Unix
takes up, and I compared that size with the size of various common GUI
applications, and that of M$'s office suite.  I didn't say that you said
anything about the size of GUI applications or M$'s office suite.  

> Stop making things up. I have made absolutely no false claims.

Except for claiming that "Unix is bloated"?  Are you now going to
retract this false claim in the face of real-world evidence?

I haven't seen you state that "I was wrong to claim that Unix is
bloated", so it appears that not only did you make a false claim, that
you continue to assert it, too.

[ ... ]
>> Because application programs should decide for themselves how to handle
>> those problems, because they may decide to do different things depending
>> on complex state behavior that is not readily available to the operating
>> system itself.
>  
> In fact it is the other way around.

That depends on the application, now doesn't it?

>> I was the primary author of a popular NEXTSTEP product called
>> CrashCatcher, which only required the addition of one line to the
>> original source code in order to augment an Objective-C program with
>> quite sophisticated error handling functionality.  Of course, the
>> developer could add a little more code and be able to perform
>> arbitrarily complex error handling behavior within a framework that was
>> well-debugged, modular, and extensible.
>  
> So does this mean you have biases?

Yep-- for example, I'm biased about CrashCatcher.  It would be
impossible for me to provide a completely unbiased description of
CrashCatcher's merits.

I can describe a lot of good things about the product, and I can try to
give an honest description of it's problems; other people can look at
how I describe CrashCatcher, and being aware of the fact that I wrote
much of it, can form their own opinions.

C> Nonsense.  The only errors that must be handled between the OS and the
C> operator are severe errors like hardware failure, and they generally
C> require human intervention for the simple and practical reason that
C> there is no way for any layer of software (whether it be the process or
C> the kernel) to recover.
>  
> You are yet again repeating yourself. You say "only errors are hardware
> errors".

I do not see that phrase of 5 words anywhere in the paragraph quoted by
"C>".  Why are you misattributing that phrase to me when I didn't write
those words?

> I have said that file not present is an operational error, 
> depending on how the application has asked for it. Operational
> errors should clearly be handled between OS, and operator.

There's your assumption that 'there will always be an operator' again.

Your assertions fail to be true when you consider an unattended machine
like a web server.  A "file-not-found" error is not an operational
error, nor should that error be handled "between OS, and operator". 

There aren't any operators available to an unattended machine!

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Konstantin Wiesel 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Return-key image in IB of OS4.1?
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:52:18 +0000
Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany)
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Does the Return key image no longer exist in OS4.1 Interface Builder?

Also i would like to know if it is the normal procedure of the new PB to
build two nib one beginning with NextStep_... and the ohter with
Windows_...

---
Konstantin Wiesel
Email:kwiesel@jura.uni-bonn.de


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From: tgritton@sprynet.com (Terry Gritton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NS 3.0
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 08:52:52 -0800
Organization: ^self -> (CompSci/MolBiol)
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In article ,
engelhar@dreamscape-solutions.com (Michael Engelhart) wrote:

>Hello all-
>
>I'm thinking of buying an old 33MhZ NeXT Station turbo for pretty cheap. 
>It comes with NS 3.0 user/developer installed.  Is this worth learning
>NeXT development on?  I currently develop for the Mac and couldn't find
>any info about versions of NS previous to 3.3 on their site.   Also, can
>you upgrade relatively easily to 3.3?  I'm just trying to get a head start
>on Rhapsody. 

I will be interested in answers to your question as I am in a similar
situation. I have an 25Mhz slab and NS3.0 User&Developer which I am using
to learn Objective-C.  It would be nice to have clear and concise diffs for
3.0->3.3 and 3.3->4.x.

You have probably seen at the Next site

>>>>
OpenStep Journal, Spring 1995 (Volume 1, Issue 1).

The Same, Yet Different:
NEXTSTEP and OpenStep

Written by Jean Ostrem
<<<<

> Also, are there any good tech references out in publication
>on NeXTStep?....any info would be greatly appreciated. 

NextStep 3.0 Developer has lots of good documentation and a nice system for
accessing it ( Digital Librarian and HeaderViewer apps).

For learning NS3.0 here is what somebody else posted to the net and so far
I agree ( except that the Mahoney book really should have had more info on
using the debugger).

>>>>>>
The Garfinkel/Mahoney book was very good.  The title is
NeXSTEP Programming: STEP ONE: Object-Oriented Applications
 Springer-Verlag (TELOS imprint)
 ISBN 0-387-97884-4    or  ISBN 3-540-97884-4
As Greg says, it is for an older version of NeXTSTEP.  The ideas
are useful, but the newer OpenStep API is a bit different, and even
the InterfaceBuilder looks a bit different than is shown in this
book.  Still, it is a very good book for anyone who just decided
to dusting off a NeXTSTEP 3.x system after hearing this news.
Certainly learning NeXTSTEP 3.x would be more informative than
sitting around reading usenet articles from everyone...
>>>>
-- 
-- 
Terry Gritton        "Glycobiology - the new frontier of biosemiotics"
tgritton@sprynet.com 
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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 24 Feb 1997 17:19:24 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
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On 17 Feb 1997 20:29:15 GMT, John R. Campbell  wrote:
> 	Your correction is understood, but remember the context.  The ctime
> 	isn't changed all that often;  It's changed when the inode *itself*
> 	has been manipulated rather than the file it refers to.
> 
> 	For instance, once a file's created, how often do *you* think the
> 	permission bits need to be manipulated, hmmm???

from the man page for stat(2):
     st_ctime    Time when file status was last changed.  It is
                 set both both by writing and changing the i-
                 node.  Changed by the following system calls:
                 chmod(2) chown(2), link(2), mknod(2), rename(2),
                 unlink(2), utimes(2), write(2).

the ctime field is actually remarkably useless (apart from the fact
that the modified time may be set arbitrarily by the user, but doing so
updates this field, and so prevents a user from hiding all record of a
change to a file)

  rog.

(a superuser can of course trivially change the ctime *and* the mtime of
a file however)

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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 24 Feb 1997 18:28:45 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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"Lawson English"  wrote:
> John Kheit  said:
> [on my citing Webster's 3rd International]

> >In the states, the authority is likely to be the 9th or newer
> >version.

> yar, but I picked up the entire 3 volume set for $25, so I'm
> willing to put up with a few obsolete definitions...

:)  Good enough reason for me :)

--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...

monoChrome, Inc.          | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer   | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School       | Ja tallar ente svenska )^>  %^)  =^)
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
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Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 13:06:10 -0500
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In article <5eqmvc$pfr@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org
(Gary W. Longsine) wrote:

> This really is a bummer, and I hadn't thought of the implications of the 
> Office suite on the OS design.  You are right, of course.   Micro$oft, of 
> course, could always decline to migrate the popular Office applications to a 
> new MacOS

  Mmm, I dunno.  Contrary to what people seem to believe here, MS is
indeed a customer driven company.  They would have done office for a new
Mac OS, they'd have to or face the screams of every Mac owner, and the
feds along with them.  Apple does have some power to wield here, in the
form of "MS isn't support changes to our OS in an attempt to drive people
off of it".

> OpenStep has changed all that, though.  Rhapsody might wind up producing 
> applications that are so cool that nobody *cares* if Office is available on 
> the PowerMac or not.

  The ones to convince are the MIS types who are completely convinced that
if they load the same software onto the same machines and allow no others
on their entire network, everything will just magically work and they'll
know how to fix it when it breaks.

  This is of course a flawed theory, because OS's and applications are so
immense today that it's impossible to learn everything there is to know
about _two_ items in a lifetime, let alone the lifetime of the
software/hardware which continues to shrink.  So magnifying the issue with
multiple platforms does basically nothing to the problem, but not doing so
has serious repercussions on user efficiency (I believe it to be a truism
that people should use the machine they get the most work done on) and
flexibility (evolutionary theory).
 
> Yes, I think it's most likely that many of the advanced features from NeXT, 
> Copland, and other Apple and NeXT research will be incorporated into a new 
> Rhapsody GUI that is wonderful and happy.  It will have so many compelling 
> cool things that it will be attractive to MacOS, NeXTSTEP, OS/2, Windows and 
> Windows95 users.  That is the cool part of all this.  We all get a modern OS 
> with lots of cool new toys that isn't crushed under the M$ hegemony.

  And one that is already in use.  Let us not forget the BeOS people, they
are trying hard and I wish them the best of luck and fortunes.

Maury
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From: Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 -- printf %g still broken (possible solution)
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Organization: Fabien Roy Consultant.
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Openstep 4.1 for Mach uses gcc 2.5.8
and 
Openstep 4.1 for NT uses gcc 2.7.2

-- 
Fabien Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted)
Fabien Roy Consultant
NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA
10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France 
Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23  Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90
GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83

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From: Koplien@vnet.IBM.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: cc++ question
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 97 13:05:44
Organization: IBM Zurich Research Laboratory
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I edited the cc++ script and add -lg++. BTW, the error disappear if you have any "cout" code
in your main program, too.
Henry
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From: aa056@chebucto.ns.ca (George White)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q] How to control which f.p. errors signal on black NS 3.0?
Date: 24 Feb 1997 21:13:43 GMT
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I would like to have some f.p. exceptions that currently generate NaN's
raise SIG_FPE.  I would also like to be able to produce an error message
that provides some indication of the type of error (e.g., division by
zero).  This needs to work on black hardware with NS 3.0, using C.

--
--
George White  
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Dynamic flag in 4.0 and 4.1
Date: 24 Feb 1997 21:12:07 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> In article <5els0h$agc@newsread.onramp.net> Jim_Miller@suite.com writes:
> > mpaque@next.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> > 
> > >The assorted DYLD environment variables are strictly for debugging  
> > >purposes.  They aren't available to apps running from the Workspace, 
> > >or when running as the superuser (root) for obvious reasons.
> > 
> > This is bad.  We sell a product that consists of a bunch of 
> > executables (that run in the background), a couple of OpenStep 
> > applications (launched from the Workspace), and a dynamic library.  
> > The executables and OpenStep applications are linked with the dynamic 
> > library, and our customers will link their OpenStep apps with the 
> > dynamic library.
> 
> Non-NeXT frameworks that third parties are expected to link with should be  
> installed in /LocalLibrary/Frameworks in the current Mach based products.

[...]

> -- 
> I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me.
> mpaque@next.com		Official business only		NeXT Mail OK
> mpaque@wco.com		Non-business or personal mail	NeXT mail OK
> 

I agree with Jim Miller. It's ridiculous that frameworks can't be dynamically located 
like bundles can.

Here at Orca we have augmented the system makefiles so that a .o file is created in 
every framework and when we link our app, the framework's .o's get linked in and 
their resources copied (we have to be careful with names to ensure that resources 
don't clobber each other). During development we use frameworks in the typical 
fashion, but then upon delivery we set a flag so that this static linking and 
resource copying occurs.

As far as requiring users to install frameworks in /LocalLibrary/Frameworks goes, 
there are two problems. One is that not all users have permission to put files there. 
Another is that my application's frameworks might clobber yours.

Jim, I suggest you either modify the system to let you "absorb" the frameworks into 
your application (you could write a separate shell script or modify the makefiles) or 
switch to using bundles which can be located anywhere.

Good luck.

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: EOModeler 2.0 ....
Date: 24 Feb 1997 21:31:38 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 02/24/97, universit de La Rochelle wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I try to use EOMOdeler with EOF2.0.
>Lots of thing have been modified (compare with EOF1.0) but i can't find 
how,
>to do actions than i did before with EOF1.0 !!
>
>1. I don't see the synonyms and views ?

	I'm not sure what you mean here.

>2. If i remove a table of my model, how can i import it back in my model ?
>
>Thanks for your help
>

	In this case, this is something that was left out of EOModeler 2.0 
in error (so it has been said on the EOF mailing list) and will be put back 
in for EOF 2.1.

	
-- 
Scott Anguish               DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS
sanguish@digifix.com        Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: C++ Syntax Highlighting
Message-ID: <1997Feb24.144238.26278@roper.uwyo.edu>
From: nor@panoramix.uwyo.edu (norbert pirzkal)
Date: 24 Feb 97 14:42:38 MST
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Is there a freeware editor for NeXTSTEP that supports syntax highlighting?

					Thanks


--
Norbert Pirzkal                           
http://faraday.uwyo.edu/grads/npirzkal
P.O. Box 3905
Physics & Astronomy Department
University Station
Laramie, WY, 82071

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From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Re: Return-key image in IB of OS4.1?
Sender: news@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Mr. News)
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Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 22:38:59 GMT
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In article ,
Konstantin Wiesel   wrote:
>
>Does the Return key image no longer exist in OS4.1 Interface Builder?
>

  It is apparently gone.  The New Way(TM) is to use a heavy line, just like
they do in Windows.
  I've never see OS/Mach, so I can't comment on how well this works.  To me it
sounds ugly.

-- 
David Evans              (NeXTMail OK)              dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
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From: jimmord@mindspring.com (John Immordino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: SVGA display drivers and Vertical refresh interrupts...
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 01:22:44 GMT
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On Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:33:48 -0700, Ed Vanwieren
 wrote:

>I'm hoping someone has written a display driver before... here is what
>I'd like to "IDEALLY" accomplish:
>
>Write a special display driver that handles "standard" SVGA allowing
>access to the vertical refresh interrupt for synchronizing video
>display. I think a common low resolution display [e.g. 640x480 @ 60hz,
>256 colors] would work for most [if not all] graphics cards.
>

Possibly so, but in this card the card is not the limiting factor.
NEXT's display architecture is designed around a linear frame buffer,
ie. if your display adaptor has 2M of memory the operating system
presents this memory to NEXT's window server as a contiguous block.

The SVGA standard is an extension of VGA, which is limited to a very
small memory buffer.  To work around the limit, SVGA uses this VGA
buffer as a "window" into a larger memory buffer, mapping  segments of
that larger buffer into the VGA memory area as they're needed.  The
gain is higher resolution and pixel depth at the cost of performance.

NEXT had to jump through hoops to make SVGA work at a depth of 2 bits
per pixel.  I vaguely recall discusions of the window server
implementing an exception handler to deal with page faults by calling
the SVGA driver routine to map in the correct segment and making the
proper OS calls to fix up the physical-to-virtual memory mapping -
makes me shudder just thinking about it.

Anyway, my point is that if 8-bit (256 color) pixel depth performed
adequately NEXT would have included it in their SVGA implementation.
Of course, this decision was made before Intel clean room technicians
started dancing to "Play That Funky Music" and "installing" MMX (more
money extracted)  technology in their chips.  Maybe today's Pentium
can handle the load, but I'd bet against being able to implement 8-bit
depth in a subclass of IOSVGADisplay.

>Reading the IOSVGA and IOFrameBuffer classes, it would appear that I
>need a fair bit of register addresses and constants to allow me to do
>this.
>

Yep.  You need a working knowledge of VGA and SVGA.

>So.... What is the 'standard' SVGA that would work with most graphics
>card? Where can this 'standard' be found? 

Try "The Programmer's Guide to EGA, VGA, and Super VGA Cards"
by Ferraro (Addison-Wesley, ISBN 0201624907)

>Is the vertical refresh
>interrupt already accessable within the existing NeXT drivers?

The current crop of drivers do not make use of the vertical refresh
interrupt.  You can write a driver which configures the adapter
hardware to interrupt, but it's likely that configuration is
vendor-specific.  You might be able to write a driver that configures
and handles the vertical refresh interrupt for a given adaptor and
co-exists with the NEXTSTEP display driver, but I wouldn't recommend
it.

>Where can
>I get specific chipset information if I had to implement a driver for a
>specific card(s)???

From the vendor, if they choose to give it to you.  Sometimes this
requires a non-disclosure agreement, in which case you need to
convince them that there's money in it for them.  Sometimes they'll
just give you the spec.  It always takes several phone calls to find
the right contact (try marketing rather than technical support) and
several phone calls after that to get the spec.

I haven't painted a very bright picture, but I can't categorically
rule out the possibility of success, either.  Take a look at the
Ferraro book to get an idea of the hardware and SVGA programming
involved.  If that doesn't intimidate you, see if you can subclass
IOSVGA display and implement 8-bit depth.  Also, find out if SVGA
includes a standard access mechanism to map and enable the vertical
refresh interrupt.  If you can get there, you're halfway home.  The
other half is efficiently notifying whichever process is looking for
that interrupt, but that's another story.

- John

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From: Ed Vanwieren 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: SVGA display drivers and Vertical refresh interrupts...
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 1997 16:33:48 -0700
Organization: Zokero Inc.
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I'm hoping someone has written a display driver before... here is what
I'd like to "IDEALLY" accomplish:

Write a special display driver that handles "standard" SVGA allowing
access to the vertical refresh interrupt for synchronizing video
display. I think a common low resolution display [e.g. 640x480 @ 60hz,
256 colors] would work for most [if not all] graphics cards.

Reading the IOSVGA and IOFrameBuffer classes, it would appear that I
need a fair bit of register addresses and constants to allow me to do
this.

So.... What is the 'standard' SVGA that would work with most graphics
card? Where can this 'standard' be found? Is the vertical refresh
interrupt already accessable within the existing NeXT drivers? Where can
I get specific chipset information if I had to implement a driver for a
specific card(s)???

Ed Vanwieren
vanwiere@cadvision.com
Nexar Research Inc.
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 21 Feb 1997 00:24:40 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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syy@ecmwf.int (Mike Connally) wrote:
> 
> There's a tendency in the NeXT community not to grok the utility
> of MacOS features like file type & creator codes, Macintosh Easy
> Open, and full drag-and-drop capability.

There is a tendency in the MacOS advocate community to make the
assumption that NeXTSTEP advocates don't know what a Mac is.

However, the fact that I am quite happy with the NeXTSTEP user
interface does not change the fact that my main job responsibility
here at RPI has been Macintosh support.  This has been true for
several years now, and I'm pretty damn close to the top Macintosh
expert on campus.  I'm regularly at Apple Support Coordinator
meetings (put on by apple, including non-disclosure information at
times).  Chances are mighty good that I've "groked" MacOS features
before you even heard about them.

It is annoying to see Mac advocates who are so puffed up with their
own system that they are convinced that anyone who disagrees with
them must "not understand" what is going on.

> NeXTfreaks might say:
> |> > Among the data stored in the application segments ... are the
> |> > information on which kind of document (file extension) one given
> |> > app can open. For example, PhotoShop.app could open ".tiff",
> |> > ".eps", ".gif"..., IconBuilder.app could open ".tiff" documents
> |> > only. The user can choose a default application (among those
> |> > able) to open a given kind of document.  This is a user's
> |> > preference.
> 
> This is a Mac user's preference too.  The file TYPE code is
> analogous to a filename extension (but unintrusive).  An app
> knows which file types it can handle.  The file CREATOR code
> simply indicates which app created the file.  Double-clicking a
> file tries to launch that app.  If the app isn't found, Macintosh
> Easy Open launches to ask the user to nominate a substitute app
> which can handle that file type.  Easy.  From then on, that app
> becomes that user's preferred launch.

This is not the same as what NeXTSTEP advocates are talking
about.  It is not flexible in the same way that NeXTSTEP is.

Note that Macintosh Easy Open only gives you this option if you do
not have the application which a given document was created in.
If you *have* the application, but happen to prefer to use some
other application for a given file type, then Macintosh Easy Open
does not even come into play.  The Mac user, in this situation,
will have no option to set a preference.  Futhermore, when you do
*not* have the application which created the document, Macintosh
Easy Open only lets you set the preference once.  You have no easy
way to change that preference.

Thus, your statement that "This is a Mac user's preference" shows
that you don't understand what the NeXTSTEP user has for preferences.
Now, one can argue whether the Macintosh method is better or worse
than the NeXTSTEP method, and that is a merely stupid religious war.
In your case you are stating that the Macintosh user has the *same*
options, and in fact they do not.  You only think they do because
you are not familiar with NeXTSTEP.

I work on a daily basis with *both* NeXTSTEP and MacOS, but I guess
that's irrelevent when it comes to comparing the features of both.
It's much better to have someone who only knows one system do the
comparison of two systems.  It saves so much time.

> And for further user flexibility, there's drag-and-drop.

Guess what.  NeXTSTEP has pretty much the same feature, and has
had it for many years.  The Mac implementation is a little nicer,
but all of the differences are just minor design decisions which
could be easily changed.  Those differences were based on some
historical baggage of earlier NeXTSTEP applications, and certainly
I'd prefer that drag-and-drop in Rhapsody be exactly like MacOS.
Note that drag-and-drop in the NeXTSTEP file viewer is so similar
to drag-and-drop in the MacOS that I'd expect the changes (at the
coding level) would be extremely trivial to do.

(I'm not sure if MacOS had this drag-and-drop feature in the finder
before NeXTSTEP had it in the file viewer, or if NeXTSTEP had it
first.  In any case, you're not talking about anything that will
impress a NeXTSTEP advocate)

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Return-key image in IB of OS4.1?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 02:52:24 GMT
Organization: MHPCC
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In  David Evans wrote:
> In article ,
> Konstantin Wiesel   wrote:
> >
> >Does the Return key image no longer exist in OS4.1 Interface Builder?
> >
> 
>   It is apparently gone.  The New Way(TM) is to use a heavy line, just like
> they do in Windows.
>   I've never see OS/Mach, so I can't comment on how well this works.  To me it
> sounds ugly.
> 
> 

The demise of the Return key icon was evidence that severe "Windows Envy" had 
taken over NeXT.  Other signs were the window setup of the OpenStep 4.0 pre 
release GUI, where the miniaturize button was placed on the right, next to the 
close button, JUST LIKE WINDOWS95.  And NeXT had reportedly shifted internally 
to running NT.   I hope that the Apple purchase has stanched this slide into 
perversity and depravity within the NeXT team.  Maybe the return of Jobs will 
presage the Return of the Return!
--

=======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.

Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office:	Maui High Performance Computing Center
	550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100
	Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone:	(808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu 
Web:	http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
=======================================================================

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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 21 Feb 1997 01:16:32 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
> John Hornkvist writes:
>    Resource forks is only a way to reimplement directories
>    inside a file.
> 
> Which brings up an interesting question ... can anyone tell me
> if there's a limit on the number of files you can have on HFS?
> It just occurred to me that perhaps forks are a means of effectively
> doubling the number of files without requiring more metadata
> overhead.

Close, but you're misunderstanding where the savings is.  For all
practical purposes, the two forks of a Macintosh file are a two
separate files.  So, the savings is not because the resource fork
is somehow not a file.  You are not effectively doubling the
number of files.

The savings is that everything *inside* the resource fork is *not*
another file.  A resource fork can hold multiple icons, just like
an appwrapper can.  However, in an app wrapper each one of those
icons is another file (another inode, etc).  All of the icons, plus
all the other resources for a file, are only a single file ("the
resource fork file") on a Mac.  Note that this means your savings
is much more than merely doubling the number of files.

> [I'm making two assumptions, here.  One is that Way Back When,
> Mac had small disks, and for every file which needed a resource
> fork, you'd have needed twice as much metadata overhead.

If a file has both a data fork and a resource fork, then I'm pretty
sure it will have twice as much metadata overhead as if it only
has one fork (note that a Mac file can also be *just* a resource
fork, with no data fork).  However, I believe that metadata is
basically stored as if it were two files, so I don't think there's
any particular savings there.

> Furthermore, files may have been referred to with small integers
> to save space in the metadata.]
> 
>    Now, in Unix a directory is a file. A file with names and
>    pointers to other files. Making the OS aware that some
>    directories are not really directories but a special sort
>    of file should be simple enough. This could be done using
>    extensions, or by modifying the file system to add a "bundle"
>    bit. However, I think things work well the way they are...
> 
> They do work reasonably the way they are, but I think it would
> be perfectly appropriate to have a bundle bit.  OTOH, I'm not
> sure quite where it could go without conflicting with directory
> handling code.  For instance, you could use the sticky bit (but
> it's already used for directories), or a setuid/setgid bit to
> indicate something special about a directory.

I'm not a fan of the bundle bit in the MacOS, mainly because it
screws everything up when it's set wrong...  :-)

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: michal@gortel.phys.ualberta.ca (Michal Jaegermann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP/MACH 4.1 -- printf %g still broken (possible solution)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs
Date: 25 Feb 1997 04:17:13 GMT
Organization: Disorganized Bits
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Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org wrote:
: Openstep 4.1 for Mach uses gcc 2.5.8
: and 
: Openstep 4.1 for NT uses gcc 2.7.2

So what??? This is not a compiler bug but a library bug.
These do not have very much in common.

  --mj
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From: stefanos@Vir.com (Stefanos Kiakas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WebObjects and access control.
Date: 24 Feb 1997 15:50:00 -0500
Organization: Hookup Montreal, Internet Access Montreal.
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Hello all,

	What is the best way to implement user authentication with 
WebObjects lite and Apache?

	I tried using .htaccess with Apache, but the Web script got 
executed anyway. Is it possible to use just .htaccess or do I have to 
create a separate access control method for WebObjects?

	Thank you for any help,
stef
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 21 Feb 1997 06:56:16 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
> It's the latency that's important.  If an inode has 96 bytes of
> information, you can fit 10 inodes in a 1k fragment.  If an inode
> has 128 bytes, you can only fit 8, if it has 160 bytes, you can
> only fit 6.

I do not buy the argument that there will be a significant
(obvious-to-the-user) performance penalty if someone decided that
the catalog information of a file should hold a few more bytes of
information.  There are other reasons to shy away from such a
proposal, but I can not believe that performance is going to take
a nose-dive due to the proposed additions.

The overhead should only come when opening files, and it isn't
going to be all *that* much different.  The current Unix file system
was designed for processors (and disks) which were much slower than
the systems we have now.  It's a bit much to wring our hands over
the awful overhead of a few more bytes in the catalog information.

Perhaps I'm a bit biased because I worked on a mainframe OS that
*did* keep this kind of information (and we did it on 1970-era
computers), and somehow we managed quite well (performance-wise)
despite that "massive drain" of having a few extra bytes of catalog
information around.  And yes, we had lots of files on the system,
and lots of simultaneous users (it was a timesharing system, after
all).  By "lots" I mean over two hundred simultaneous users.  Based
on that, I find it preposerous that a single user system is going
to suffer serious performance degradation if someone were to have
the audacity to add a few extra bytes to the catalog information.
I just do not believe it.

> In essence, that's what this thread is about - the creation
> timestamp is one more bit of info helpful to the user.  I'm
> arguing that this bit is very seldom used, and though it might
> be useful periodically, it's not useful frequently enough to be
> worth hazarding throughput.  If you make the things the user does
> hundreds of times a day fast, it's not too painful if you make
> the things they do once a week a bit slower.

Note that if one uses a resource-fork approach to storing little
bits of info, then you have fewer catalog lookups to do (which is
to say, the application is doing fewer file-open operations).  I
think it would be inconsistent to wail and moan about adding a tiny
bit of overhead to a file-open, but then be quite comfortable and
gung-ho about organizing information in such a way that greatly
increases the number of file-open's which are done every time an
application is launched or a document is opened.  If file opens
are so expensive in the first case, then we should not be so
calm about them in the second case.

At the end of the day, I probably wind up with many of the same
conclusions as Scott does, but for entirely different reasons.  To
me the most important issue for Rhapsody is getting it available
to end users.  I am uneasy about any big projects to "make things
better", the key work there being "big".  If some project delays
the release of Rhapsody by six months, then it should be avoided
unless it is a *great* idea.  Playing around with the invention
of some new file system (along with the work to rewrite all utilities
to behave well in that new system) sounds to me like too much of
a delay for too little of a payback.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 21 Feb 1997 00:32:09 GMT
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Mike.Connally@dial.pipex.com (Mike Connally) wrote:
> jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:   [about the Mac]
> > 
> > That's kind of what I meant..  You can't choose to open by file
> > type _OVER_ file creator.  If the file creator data is there,
> > and the file creator app exists on that machine, you MUST use
> > it.  You cannot choose a file type application OVER that creator
> > app.  I didn't say you can't open by file type at all.  I simply
> > said the Mac doesn't give you a choice between the two if
> > creator exists you use it, otherwise you use type... no choice.
> 
> Wrong.  You can either drag-and-drop any file of a compatible
> type onto any app (easy) or you can launch the app and the use
> the File Open dialog to open any document of a compatible type
> (fiddly, but Windows people seem to like it).

He is not wrong.  You are changing the question, and thus pretending
that your answer is correct.

You can drag-and-drop on NeXTSTEP too.  You can use the "open" menu
item on NeXTSTEP too.  However, that is not what he's talking about.
It's also not what you were talking about, when you brought up
Macintosh Easy Open.  Certainly that has nothing to do with
drag-and-drop or the "open" menu item.  The topic here is discussing
what action takes place when you double-click on a document.

If you have a lot of applications on a Mac, then using drag-and-drop
to open a document is certainly less convenient than double-clicking
on the document.  You either waste time trying to open up the folder
which has the document you want, or you end up with all kinds of
aliases somewhere (probably on the desktop) just so you can use
drag-and-drop.  The first one is not convenient, and the second
one is somewhat silly.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.powerpc.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.unix.machten,comp.unix.osf.misc,comp.os.mach,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Apple Mach IS NOT a microkernel!!!!!
Date: 25 Feb 1997 06:24:10 GMT
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gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine) wrote:
> I just don't understand why anyone would spend almost half a
> billion dollars, and over 5 years on OS research (Pink, Taligent,
> Copland) and fail to grok something so basic as a rational
> protected memory scheme.

A few details you are overlooking.

Pink = Taligent = a brand new system from the ground up.  You
can do things in a new system which you might shy away from in
a current production system.  From all I've ever seen about
Taligent, it understands protected memory quite well.  That
understanding is irrelevent to the work done for Copland, as
they are projects with completely different constraints.

> (I also don't understand why people are so infatuated with a
> research kernel (Copland's NuKernel) that's never seen the
> production light of day and doesn't offer an improvement over
> kernels that I've been using for years...  but that's another
> topic.)

It does offer some improvements.

> In the strictest technical sense, perhaps I was too harsh on the
> poor, defenseless little NuKernel,

Yes, you were.  Not that it's defenseless, but you made a number
of assumptions which are not correct.

> Anyway, nobody has yet offered proof that my general claim is
> incorrect.  The designers of Copland wandered very far down an
> expensive and pointless track.  They should have had their leashes
> jerked back long, long ago.  If they had presented me with such
> a kludge two years ago, after hundreds of millions of dollars
> and three years wasted on Pink and Taligent, I would have fired
> them as being fundamentally incompetent.  Period.
> 
> Copland + NuKernel = No protected memory for ordinary applications.   

Forget the NuKernel in this equation.  It's

Copland = No protected memory for ordinary (GUI) applications

I would say your general claim is correct, but I understand how it
could have happened from Apple's side.  The main problem with
Copland is that it took much too long to do.  If they could have
done Copland in a year, then it probably would have been a perfectly
reasonable idea.

The real goal was Gershwin, which was intended to be the follow-on
to Copland.  Nobody nowhere at no time said that Copland was going
to be the nirvana of operating systems.  It was only meant to be
an interim transition between MacOS and a new, modern, and heavy-duty
operating system.

Also, completely forget about Pink/Taligent for this discussion.
Completely.  Don't even mention it.  It is not relevent to the
decisions made for Copland/Gershwin, and given the size of Taligent
this is probably just as well.  Even with the recent dramatic
decrease in RAM prices, Taligent could have required more RAM than
Mac users would want to buy for a PowerMac.  Besides, the people
who worked on Taligent *moved* to the company named Taligent.  They
are not the people at Apple who worked on Copland/Gershwin ideas.

> Under Copland, developers must take special steps to arrange for
> protected memory for "applications that could benefit" from it.
> The first, and very, very special, step is that one must hack
> the user interface out of the app.
> 
> That means that all the problems Mac users have with the average
> user apps taking down other apps would still exist in Copland,
> with the minor enhancement that your kernel would still be running
> after your entire workspace crashes.  As a user of a UNIX based
> OS, I don't have this problem.

And as a developer for Unix, you have hardly any customers compared
to the MacOS.  You don't have to worry about disrupting millions
of customers, because you don't have them.  Your operating system
started on hardware which cost tens of thousands of dollars at the
time, and thus it could afford the overhead of doing things right.
The Mac was targetted for normal people with relatively normal
budgets, and as such the initial hardware was fairly toyish.
However, the Mac (and PC) brought computing to the masses, a claim
which Unix can certainly never make in it's wildest dreams.

Once Apple had made the transition to beefier hardware, it had to
come up with a smooth transition of it's operating system.  The
Copland/Gershwin combination looked good on paper, and I don't see
why you're so worked up about it.  What good is done by all your
ranting and raving about it?  Apple greatly underestimated the
difficulty of making this major a switch, and that is hardly news
in the computer industry.  In the lofty world of Unix, ask Sun how
long it took to make their transition from BSD to SysV unix.  I
don't think Apple could afford a transition as painful (or as
drawn-out) as that one has been.

Now, as good as Copland/Gershwin may have initially looked, I do
agree that Apple should have woken up to the problems a bit sooner
than they did.  Personally I think the problem was that upper
management at the time was too busy trying to get someone like Sun
to buy Apple (thus setting themselves up for big paydays), and were
not paying attention to Apple itself.  Either they didn't know or
didn't care that this plan was dragging on much longer than it
should have, or maybe they didn't think the changes were all that
important.  They might have thought, "sure this is late, but so
what?".  In any case, whatever the problem was, I do agree that
Apple should have noticed it much sooner than they did.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 21 Feb 1997 05:38:44 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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peterm@dna.lth.se (Peter Moller) wrote:
> >: While the Mac users abhorance of file extensions is largely
> >: religious, it will probably need to be honored for the sake
> >: of a smooth migration path.
>
> I wouldn't call it religous, it's practical, logical etc.

Most proponents of a given religion will say that their religion
is practical, logical, etc.  I do for mine.  That doesn't change
the nature of debates over it...   :-)

> WHY should the user have to spend mental time and energy trying
> to remember extensions?? WHY? It's stupid. The application knows
> it and that suffices.

There is no good reason that the user would spend any time or energy
remembering extensions.  And, in fact, they don't under NeXTSTEP.
The operating system knows the mapping from extensions to applications,
it isn't something that the user has to "remember".  All the user has
to do is leave the extension alone.  This is not a hard task.

When creating a new document, the application itself selects the
extension that's appropriate.

> An example: the extension "DOC" in the WIntel world meand "Micro$oft
> Word Document" and only that. It does not tell you what version
> of messy word it is.

And the exact same thing is true under the MacOS.  The creator/type
pair just tell you want application to launch.  It doesn't tell you
what version of an application created the document.

> And the named word processor can handle a lot of other file types
> (from the BNDL-resource of Word 5.1):  TEXT, WDBN, GLOS, WHLP,
> WPRD, sDBN, edtt, WDIC, WDEC, WDPC, SITD - and this is just one
> application!!

Wow.  Are we impressed.  Such a studly application.

Just how stupid are you?  Do you think NeXTSTEP applications are
limited to a single file type?  Let's see, almost every application
I have on my NeXT opens more than one file type, and some of them
open a dozen or more.  What a silly topic to bring up.

> One difference of the typical Macintosh user and users of other
> computer systems is that the Mac user generaly uses more
> applications than other users.

This comment is based on studies of Mac users vs Windows users.
The same kind of studies have not been done for Mac vs NeXTSTEP
users.  Since I'm not aware of any such studies, I can't say
what the results would be.  My guess is that you can't say either.

> Having to know information which there is no rational reason
> whatsoever to know would, I'm sure, stifle that using habit. Give
> me one rational reason to remember extensions!

I won't.  I don't think you should.  What's you're point?

> With the Mac scheme of creator/file type, I can easily have both
> FreeHand 5.5 and FreeHand 7.0 on my hard disk at the same time
> and use the newer application until I know I really want to have
> it. And when I throw the old one out, the new one knows directly
> when I open an old document exactly what kind of document it is
> and how it should treat it - all without looking at the content
> of the file (which takes time - at least more time than to look
> at the file type).

The same thing could happen on NeXTSTEP.  There isn't a single
thing preventing it.

And if you're opening the file to *READ* it, then it's pretty damn
silly to talk about the "overhead" of looking at the content.  The
application has to read the content anyway, so who cares if the
information is in the document?  (however, note that NeXTSTEP does
not *require* version information to be handled as part of the
content of the file, I am merely commenting on how stupid it is
to brag about not having to look at the content of a file when
the application is opening the stupid file anyway).

> And to have extensions but hide it in the Finder - sweeet jesus...

Well, I do agree with you that I'm not much of a fan of that idea.
If an operating system uses a filename extension, then I'd like
the file viewer to show those extensions.

For that matter, I'm inclined to think it is better to have the
type information in a separate field (instead of the filename),
instead as an extension to the filename.  I've always thought that,
but even with this bias I must admit that the way NeXTSTEP handles
extensions has not in fact been a problem for me.

I don't think the creator field is as important as some Mac people
might suspect.  It is somewhat useful to have a second field in
addition to the type, but I wouldn't implement it quite the way
that the MacOS implements it.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Views and Synonyms
Date: 25 Feb 1997 09:30:32 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
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Hi all,

Is there a specific dwrite for EOF2.0 on OpenStep4.0 to work
with synonyms and views in EOMOdeler.
For EOF1.0 you need to have a dwrite whiwh owner was Oracle7Adaptor !

Is there the same thing for EOF2.0 ??

Thanks for your answer

YANNICK
-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: fetch and qualifier with EOF2.0 and OpenStep 4.0
Date: 25 Feb 1997 09:32:11 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
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Hi all,

just a little question about fetch and qualifier with EOF2.0 !
Can someone give me an example where i can find a qualifier and
a fetch !!!

Thanks for your help

YANNICK

-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: (Izidor Jerebic)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to make documentation for custom frameworks visible in PB?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 10:23:26 GMT
Organization: Select Technology
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Keywords: documentation, frameworks, ProjectBuilder


The documentation for NeXT frameworks can be accessed from within  
ProjectBuilder with Cmd-9 (find definitions). The result panel shows lines  
with little book icons and by double click-ing on the book icon the  
documentation file is opened.

Now, what about custom frameworks? When trying to find the definition of  
one of classes from our custom framework, the following messages are seen  
on the console: 

Feb 25 11:12:15 ProjectBuilder[8319] No documentation index found for:  
/UserDisk/Users/izidor/Library/Frameworks/STFoundation.framework/Documenta 
tion/Reference/.PB.index
Feb 25 11:12:15 ProjectBuilder[8319] Starting documentation indexer on:  
/UserDisk/Users/izidor/Library/Frameworks/STFoundation.framework/Documenta 
tion/Reference

So, I have created the Documentation/Reference/Classes folder within the  
framework folder, and put there all the documentation files (with names  
.rtf). Everything writable for world (just in case).

Nothing happened, at least no change in the result panel - no book icon. I  
only get to see header file...

What am I doing wrong? How should the documentation folders/files be  
set-up for the project builder to recognize and use them?

TIA,
izidor
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From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 25 Feb 1997 15:09:19 GMT
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On 24 Feb 1997 17:19:24 GMT, Roger Peppe  wrote:
>On 17 Feb 1997 20:29:15 GMT, John R. Campbell  wrote:
>> 	Your correction is understood, but remember the context.  The ctime
>> 	isn't changed all that often;  It's changed when the inode *itself*
>> 	has been manipulated rather than the file it refers to.
>> 
>> 	For instance, once a file's created, how often do *you* think the
>> 	permission bits need to be manipulated, hmmm???
>
>from the man page for stat(2):
>     st_ctime    Time when file status was last changed.  It is
>                 set both both by writing and changing the i-
>                 node.  Changed by the following system calls:
>                 chmod(2) chown(2), link(2), mknod(2), rename(2),
>                 unlink(2), utimes(2), write(2).
>
>the ctime field is actually remarkably useless (apart from the fact
>that the modified time may be set arbitrarily by the user, but doing so
>updates this field, and so prevents a user from hiding all record of a
>change to a file)
>

	chmod	changes permissions-  not that common
	chown	changes the file's ownership- uncommon on single abuser box
	link	changes the use (reference) count in the i-node
		- OK, this is *much* more common
	mknod	*is* a creation event;  You're making an inode that refers
		to a device (via the major/minor numbers;  the permissions
		specify whether it's a chardev, blkdev, a FIFO or whatever)
	rename	this used to be done via a link and unlink but some Unix
		systems like to have a direct call that does this.  It
		could've been done by just altering the name within the
		directory, you know...
	unlink	Well, if the use count > 1, this *does* change the inode's
		use counter
	utimes	*THIS* is an explicit effort to modify these fields within
		the inode;  Usually used by touch(1).  Somehow I don't see
		folks doing this by hand...

	write	Whoops--  I did some digging on this one, and, yes, it
		*does* render st_ctime unusable.  Of course, does anybody
		know if this *always* happens or when the file's length
		is changed?

	I suspect an open() w/ O_TRUNC will change the ctime as well...

	*SIGH*

	Sounds to me like we need enhnancements to inode structures.

	I've thought, BTW, that the first 512bytes of the file could be
	invisible (all lseek() calls assume an offset unless a fcntl()
	flag get set to maximize visibility).  With an extra 1/2K of
	control information, all kinds of stuff can be hidden out-of-
	band to all the "normal" utilities...

	This'd have to apply to devices and directories...

	Is 512 bytes enough?

>(a superuser can of course trivially change the ctime *and* the mtime of
>a file however)

	Using the "touch" command which calls utimes().

	Boy, was *I* an opimist.

-- 
 John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler          soup@jtan.com
  "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me
   Disclaimer:	I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so,
		if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must
		have more lawyers than sense.

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From: edream@mailbag.com (Edward K. Ream)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Outline classes in OpenStep?
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:33:48 -0600
Organization: Berbee Information Networks Corporation
Lines: 17
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Hi,

I'm a Mac programmer who is busy studing the OpenStep development environment.

Are there a set of generally available classes that implement outline views,
such as the outline view of a finder window on the Mac?

I'm a bit surprised that something so fundamental and useful for a user
interface
isn't in the App Toolkit.

Thanks.

-- 
Edward K. Ream
edream@mailbag.com
Owner, Sherlock Software
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From: edream@mailbag.com (Edward K. Ream)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:35:37 -0600
Organization: Berbee Information Networks Corporation
Lines: 15
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Hi,

I'm confused by the term "OpenStep" (or OPENSTEP).

Does it mean the (Next?) OS or the development environment
(Foundation kit and App kit) or both?

Thanks.

Edward

-- 
Edward K. Ream
edream@mailbag.com
Owner, Sherlock Software
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Outline classes in OpenStep?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 16:49:25 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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edream@mailbag.com (Edward K. Ream) wrote:
> Are there a set of generally available classes that
> implement outline views,
> such as the outline view of a finder window on the Mac?

There's one under development in the MiscKit.  The look mimics that of the 
outline views in OmniWeb's bookmarks, or in the Class inspector of the "new" 
InterfaceBuilder (new as of 3.3, that is).

> I'm a bit surprised that something so fundamental and useful for a user
> interface
> isn't in the App Toolkit.

So are we.  That's why we're writing one.  :-)

The MiscKit has a long history of this; many of the things we've created have 
eventually found their way into the Foundation or App Kits...so I suppose 
that means the main reason they aren't in the environment yet boils down to 
(a) NeXT doesn't have enough manpower to do everything, so the "less 
important" things were left by the wayside or (b) they just didn't think of 
it yet.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: dave@siqin.feinberg.nwu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NoteBook.app, how can I get a license?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 17:50:22 GMT
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US
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I tried NoteBook.app and I like it.  I'd like to purchase a license but I haven't been able to contact the authors.  Here is what I know (from there info panel), it is written by

Millennium Software Labs, Inc.
1010 El Camino Real, Suite 300    Menlo Park, CA 94025    USA
(415) 321-3720    (415) 321-3650 Fax    info@millennium.com

Call (415) 321-3720 to order products

But there phone is disconnected and has no forwarding information.

Can anyone tell me now to contact them?



Thank's in advance,

David A. Johnson
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 18:56:38 GMT
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On 02/25/97, David Herren wrote:
>edream@mailbag.com,UseNet writes:
>
>>I'm confused by the term "OpenStep" (or OPENSTEP).
>
>
>>Does it mean the (Next?) OS or the development environment
>
>>(Foundation kit and App kit) or both?
>
>
>OPENSTEP is the abstracted API which runs on multiple OSs. OpenStep is
>the operating system itself. Confusing, isn't it?

Actually, I believe that's backwards.   From NeXT's web site:

-------

OpenStep is a public standard for an API used to develop and deploy 
dynamic multi-tier applications across diverse operating systems. 
Products currently exist for deploying applications on Windows NT, 
Solaris, and Mach.

The OpenStep API includes a set of object frameworks and a dynamic 
object runtime that makes applications easy to scale and customize. It 
includes:

+ Application framework with GUI controls and support for event 
management

+ Foundation framework that provides standard low-level services such 
as internationalization

+ Distributed objects framework, providing support for communication 
between local and remote objects

+ Display PostScript

+ Dynamic object runtime, where objects communicate dynamically at run 
time rather than being hardwired beforehand

--------

"OPENSTEP" is used to refer to one of NeXT's implementations of the 
OpenStep API, such as OPENSTEP Enterprise or OPENSTEP/Mach.

Development tools such as Interface Builder and Project Builder aren't 
defined by the OpenStep specification AFAIK.

-Ken



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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:46:37 -0500
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edream@mailbag.com,UseNet writes:

>I'm confused by the term "OpenStep" (or OPENSTEP).


>Does it mean the (Next?) OS or the development environment

>(Foundation kit and App kit) or both?


OPENSTEP is the abstracted API which runs on multiple OSs. OpenStep is
the operating system itself. Confusing, isn't it?



-- 

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Outline classes in OpenStep?
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:45:22 -0500
Organization: Language Schools of Middlebury College
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edream@mailbag.com,UseNet writes:

>Are there a set of generally available classes that implement outline
>views,

>such as the outline view of a finder window on the Mac?


>I'm a bit surprised that something so fundamental and useful for a user

>interface

>isn't in the App Toolkit.


Isn't the browser view essentially what you want? Remember that this is
the Openstep interface and not the Mac--the browser view is how one
would navigate an "outline" view of the file system.



-- 

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 25 Feb 97 12:55:00
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In-reply-to: Garance A Drosehn's message of 21 Feb 1997 06:56:16 GMT
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23091 comp.sys.mac.system:201999 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62508

In article <5ejgug$oij@usenet.rpi.edu>,
	Garance A Drosehn  writes:
   shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
   > It's the latency that's important.  If an inode has 96 bytes of
   > information, you can fit 10 inodes in a 1k fragment.  If an inode
   > has 128 bytes, you can only fit 8, if it has 160 bytes, you can
   > only fit 6.

   I do not buy the argument that there will be a significant
   (obvious-to-the-user) performance penalty ...

   The overhead should only come when opening files, and it isn't
   going to be all *that* much different.

Well, I'm not really arguing that adding a couple bits to the
structures is going to affect anything in a truly user-visible
fashion.  I'm concerned with the drawing of the line - if we're going
to add such-and-such bits, well, lets also add these other bits, too.
Also, I'm arguing that there are trivial bits and there are important
bits.  If we fill out the filesystem structures with trivial bits, we
might restrict later addition of important bits.

   > In essence, that's what this thread is about - the creation
   > timestamp is one more bit of info helpful to the user.  I'm
   > arguing that this bit is very seldom used, and though it might be
   > useful periodically, it's not useful frequently enough to be
   > worth hazarding throughput.  If you make the things the user does
   > hundreds of times a day fast, it's not too painful if you make
   > the things they do once a week a bit slower.

   Note that if one uses a resource-fork approach to storing little
   bits of info, then you have fewer catalog lookups to do (which is
   to say, the application is doing fewer file-open operations).  I
   think it would be inconsistent to wail and moan about adding a tiny
   bit of overhead to a file-open, but then be quite comfortable and
   gung-ho about organizing information in such a way that greatly
   increases the number of file-open's which are done every time an
   application is launched or a document is opened.  If file opens are
   so expensive in the first case, then we should not be so calm about
   them in the second case.

Hold on!  If you make the arbitrary assumption that _all_ files have
two forks, then indeed introducing a wrapper is problematic.  Now
you've got an additional level of manipulation, without any gain.
But, in my experience with NeXTSTEP (and also personal computers in
general), files as wrappers tend to be the minority.  Most files tend
to be just what they appear, a plain old file.  [I'll easily grant
that these may be files you aren't very interested in, though.  Of
course, you usually aren't interested in the vast majority of files on
your filesystem, or at least you hope not :-).]

Furthermore, my experience indicates that files with more than one
fork generally tend to want an arbitrary number of forks.  The number
of files with exactly two forks would be in a very small minority.
Granted, you can add a structured file format of some sort which
overlays file structure to allow condensing multiple forks into fewer
forks.  But if you're going to do that, why stop at two forks?  Why
not condense it all the way down to one fork?

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Outline classes in OpenStep?
Message-ID: <33135072.48D0@running-start.com>
From: Ralph Zazula 
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:49:54 -0800
Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com
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Hi -

edream@mailbag.com (Edward K. Ream) wrote:
> Are there a set of generally available classes that
> implement outline views,
> such as the outline view of a finder window on the Mac?
> 

Running Start has developed a framework for doing outline views.  An
interesting thing about it is that the UI layer has been abstracted such
that we can display both AppKit and WebObjects visualizations of the
same underlying data.

Let me know if you are interested in evaluating the framework...

Ralph
-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Return-key image in IB of OS4.1?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 20:09:58 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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Lee Altenberg writes
> The demise of the Return key icon was evidence that severe "Windows 
> Envy" had taken over NeXT.
..
> I hope that the Apple purchase has stanched this slide into 
> perversity and depravity within the NeXT team.  Maybe the return of Jobs 
> will presage the Return of the Return!

I hate to point this out, but...The MacOS uses a heavy border around the  
default button, as well. The arrow icon wouldn't make much sense since  
Apple's keyboards don't have arrows on the return key (or the tab key, for  
that matter).
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 20:04:25 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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David Herren writes
> OPENSTEP is the abstracted API which runs on multiple OSs. OpenStep is
> the operating system itself. Confusing, isn't it?

Apparently confusing enough for you to get that exactly wrong :-)

OPENSTEP (all caps) is Apple's name for their implementation of the  
OpenStep specification. More specifically, Apple sells:
	OPENSTEP for Mach
	OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT
Which both implement the OpenStep API on different operating systems.  
OPENSTEP for Mach also includes our Mach operating system for NeXT  
computers, Intel PC's, and Sparc workstations. 

(I just noticed that the "OpenStep compliant" logo uses the wrong  
capitalization, though. I guess even we don't get it right every time.)
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: 25 Feb 1997 19:07:19 GMT
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On 02/23/97, Ian Joyner wrote:
> If you are bored of seeing the same thing go round and round, please
> skip this now. Charles really has nothing new to say, but in the
> interests of trying to give him an answer, here we go again...
> 
One of the things I *am* fed up of seeing is ad hominem attacks from you... 
Chuck is not known for "bluster", and whilst sometimes rather direct, 
generally refrains from gratuitous insult.

You do not further your arguments by making false assertions that he is 
simply being rude.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: Ian Joyner 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:36:13 +1100
Organization: Unisys
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Here we go again. Sorry this is so repetetive and boring....

Charles William Swiger wrote:
> 
> [ ...followups redirected out of the programmer groups... ]
> 
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 21-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
> Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org
> > Well, unfortunately because of the way you have pursued the argument of
> > this thing, this would become a you're dodging the question... no you're
> > dodging the question match.
> 
> Respond to the original comment which I've placed below quoted by "C>"
> and explain how I misread your comments:
> 
> C> Blocking a process because the kernel is waiting for an operator to tell
> C> it how to proceed when some form of error occurs is the opposite of
> C> robust!  You can easily deadlock every runnable process if some crucial
> C> system resource like inetd (*), named, lookupd, or the swapper
> C> encounters a minor problem and must block until a human informs the OS
> C> of what to do when that error condition could otherwise be handled
> C> within the process.
> 
> ...with specific examples, or do not respond.

You are going around in circles. I already addressed where you were
wrong
in the above. (Hint: robustness)

> > To get a more reasonable line, you should stop accusing others in these
> > groups of doing exactly what it is that you are doing.
> 
> Precisely what is it that I am doing that I have accused other of doing?

This has also been addressed time and again.

> Be sure to provide specific examples that include direct and uneditted
> quotes from me that also include adequate context.

No you didn't get it the first time, second time, or nth time. By
mathematical
induction restating for the n+1 time is not going to enlighten you any
better.

> > From your first response to what I said, you jumped straight in and
> > responded as if I was some kind of biased idiot.
> 
> If you wish to demonstrate that you are actually not, in own your words,
>  a 'biased idiot':

The bias accusation you made, and it is just plain wrong, and shows bad
manners
along with an inability to argue your point.

> Address the issue of whether "Unix is bloated" by reconciling your
> statement with the demonstrable facts of the size of Unix as provided by
> the 'du' command.

You are setting false rules here. Why the du command? Unix has now got
very big and complex. Even the inventors of Unix think that: they are
doing Plan 9.

> [ ... ]
> >> If the OS itself blocks the process which asked for some service and
> >> waits for the user to tell it what to do when an error occurs, then
> >> neither the process being blocked nor any other process which depend on
> >> that blocked process to make progress will be able to do anything.
> >
> > The process is blocked because the OS has not been able to service its
> > request for a resource.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> > That is it.
> 
> Incorrect.
> 
> That single process may hold other resources which cannot be released
> while it's blocked, or that single process may generate information
> which other processes require.  Blocking one process may impact many
> other processes, or even the entire operating system.

This statement is not false, but you still need to go back to class on
deadlock, because this is not deadlock. Deadlock occurs when two or
more processes mutually lock each other out.

> > If the programmer does not want the process to block on a currently
> > unavailable resource, I have already told you how to cater for that
> > situation.
> 
> This claim is untrue.  

How can that be untrue? I have already told you how to deal with that
situation.

> I was the first person to bring up the concept of
> non-blocking I/O into this argument, as a scan through prior articles
> will demonstrate.

Yes you were, but the solution did not have to do with non-blocking IO.
You
are getting more and more confused.

> > Processes do not block on each other.
> 
> Processes most certainly can block on each other.  The producer-consumer
> paradigm is one of the most basic examples of using remote procedure
> calls for IPC.

No they do not block on each other, they block on resources. In the
producer-consumer paradigm, one process is producing a resource that the
consumer is using. The consumer is not blocking on the producer process.
You also get something else very mixed up here. Producer-consumer is
not an example of RPC. These are separate concepts.

> > Processes block on resources.  Deadlock occurs because one process locks a
> > resource, and a second process locks another resource. Then both processes
> > try to lock the resource that the other process already has locked.
> 
> That's the simplest example of the necessary conditions for deadlock.
> There are many, mnay other ways of creating deadlock.

Again, you must go back to class on this one, and learn the definition.

> > Your previous example was if one resource is unavailable, then all
> > processes will block on it.
> 
> There were two resources in my example-- the feedback from the user is
> also a resource, albeit one that is not part of the computer and
> therefore is not under the control of the operating system.
> 
> _That_ is the primary reason why having the OS block a process and wait
> for the user to tell it what to do is such a bad idea!  The OS cannot
> determine or control when it will actually get a response, because it
> involves a resource which the OS does not control.

Carrying this to its logical conclusion, we should not have human
input at all. Any dialog which asks the human for something will block
a process, and this might block other processes, so the whole system
might lock up. It makes no difference whether the dialog comes 
from the process asking for an input, or from the OS asking for
some system resource that the OS manages and the process has
requested.

> > What I am saying is if resources under the control of a resource
> > manager are unavailable, it is the resource managers responsibility
> > to ensure availability, and to resolve contention on the resource.
> 
> Deadlock prevention, and/or deadlock detection and resolution are very
> difficult issues that do not have graceful solutions.  Either you
> require processes to request all of the resources they will need before
> reserving any resources (which is hard to do especially when the process
> may not be able to figure out what it will need), or you have to do
> antisocial things like killing off lots of processes when they do become
> deadlocked.  Both solutions impose a lot of overhead and generally make
> the system less efficient because resources will be used less
> efficiently.
> 
> It's why most operating systems ignore the issue of deadlock entirely
> and simply try to make sure they can provide enough resources so that
> deadlock doesn't happen very often.

But OSs can detect deadlock, and this is exactly where they should ask
an operator for help in arbitrating, unless some automatic policy
gives the OS some heuristic to go forward on. The last part of your
statement is wrong. Providing extra resources is not going to prevent
deadlock. 

> > It is bad policy for a resource manager just to hand an error back
> > to a running process.
> 
> That is incorrect.  There are plenty of circumstances where having the
> resource manager just hand errors back is the best policy that could be
> followed.

No, you are just being contradictory. Your position has been that you
believe that application programs should be responsible for exceptions
and that resource problems that the OS manages should not be taken care
of by the OS but passed onto the application. You program that way,
so everybody else has to program that way. This is a very Procrustean
attitude. Although I am convinced by the mathematical induction on
your thought processes that stating something for the n+1th time won't
make any difference: passing back exceptions to applications
considerably
complicates application code with systems level problems, when
applications
are written to implement end user problems.

> While you've claimed to understand non-blocking I/O, Ian, you obviously
> don't understand that when the data isn't available yet, the OS "just
> hand[s] an error back to a running process"-- namely, EWOULDBLOCK.

You are talking implementation specifics. In abstract terms, the IO
buffer
is a resource. If it is a write operation, the buffer is locked until
the IO handler has completed the write. If the process does some
processing
and then is ready to put the data in the buffer, it must then wait
until the buffer is available. It could use alternative buffers of
course. On a read, you have a similar situation, the application can
invoke the read operation do some other things and then return for the
buffer. This is producer consumer, again nothing to do with RPC, as
you said above. So what is so obvious that I don't understand?

> If you actually understood non-blocking I/O then you would realize that
> the central concept represents a direct contradiction of your assertion
> that it's "a bad policy for a resource manager...."
> 
> I'm not going to bother with the rest of this noise-- somehow, I simply
> don't feel a need to refute more of Ian's assertions that I don't
> understand deadlock.

No you don't need to refute the claims, because from what you say
you don't understand deadlock. I requote you from above:

> It's why most operating systems ignore the issue of deadlock entirely
> and simply try to make sure they can provide enough resources so that
> deadlock doesn't happen very often.

Deadlock has nothing to do with providing enough resources. That is
why when you brought up deadlock it was irrelevant in the first place,
but you thought you were  being very clever. Similar thing about
your argument by mathematical induction, clever, but irrelevant.

But then mathematical induction does show, you will probably not
want to listen or understand for the n+1th time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joyner       | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are
Internet email:  |  for a kingdom, the gentler       | personal and are
i.joyner@acm.org |  gamester is the soonest winner"  | not Unisys
                 |       William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: allman@pat.mdc.com (Mark Allman )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Anybody tried building Perl using OpenStep 4.1?
Date: 26 Feb 1997 00:23:54 GMT
Organization: McDonnell Douglas, Houston Division
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If you succeeded, please drop me a line.
 
-- Mark Allman
-- Sr. Engineer, McDonnell Douglas Aerospace,  allman@pat.mdc.com
-- Software consulting (Perl, C, Python, ...), ghost@ghost.neosoft.com
-- (see: http://pup.princeton.edu/titles/5857.html)
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 24 Feb 1997 06:26:17 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol) wrote:
> Hmmm...Let's say I want to change the preferences for several
> applications, each having a disparate set of preference parameters.
> Who/what knows which file goes to which application? Every one
> of the files is of type 'pref'.

For this particular example, you wouldn't.  Under NeXTSTEP, most
application preferences are kept in something called the "defaults
database".  It's one database for all defaults for the user.  You
don't have lots of "prefs" files.  Due to this, you *can* write
one application which manipulated the preferences of many other
applications.

Not sure how this effects your point, but as an aside I do think
the "defaults database" of NeXTSTEP works better than having every
application have it's own preference file...

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 24 Feb 1997 06:45:18 GMT
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nspace@cts.com (Jerry Stratton) wrote:
> phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno) wrote:
> >] That's kind of what I meant..  You can't choose to open by
> >] file type _OVER_ file creator.  If the file creator data is
> >] there, and the file creator app exists on that machine, you
> >] MUST use it.
> 
> Well, it does give you a choice. If the application you want is
> visible, and that application tells the operating system it can
> handle that file type, you can drag & drop onto that application.
> This works regardless of whether or not the owning application
> exists.

We're all aware of drag-and-drop to open a file, which exists on
both operating systems (it's in a slightly different form on
NeXTSTEP, but it's there).  For purposes of this discussion, "open
by file type" should be thought of as "change the behavior seen
when double-clicking on a document of a given type".

As has been noted elsewhere in this thread, you can also go into
the application and select "Open...".  This is also available on
both platforms.

The main difference between the two platforms is the way that a
document is opened when you double-click on it.  Yes, I can drag-
and-drop to "open by file type", but when I am opening a document
I'm not always eager to go hunting for the application I want to
use (particularly since there are many different places that I get
applications from, when I'm on my Mac.  File servers, etc).

> Perhaps it would be nice to have an additional "File" menu item
> which forces Easy Open to query the operating system for all apps
> that claim to handle the file type.

I'm not sure that would work well (I'm having trouble envisioning
how it would work).  I think I'd rather have something like "AppSizer"
(a control panel available for the Mac), except that it'd list the
applications matching the document (instead of showing the memory
size) based on some special command-key at launch.

Hmm.  That paragraph might not make sense unless you know what I
mean by AppSizer...

> On the other hand, I can't honestly think of a time when I wanted
> to open a file by other than the creator when the desired app
> wasn't already visible, generally in the launcher.

Happens to me fairly often on my Macs, but then I have no desire
to setup the launcher.  Some of the appleshare servers I use are
not under my control, and I don't want to spend time trying to
recreate the filesystem in some launcher setup.  Using the launcher
would probably work fine on my Mac at home, but it would not work
well on the Mac in my office, or for the Macs in public labs.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Ian Joyner 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 12:00:21 +1100
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Charles William Swiger wrote:
> 
> [ ...Followups redirected out of the programmer groups... ]
> 
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 21-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
> Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org
> >> If you understand the difference, why did you claim that "your process
> >> would probably suspend..." when a process using non-blocking I/O will
> >> not suspend?
> >>
> >> Contradiction detected.
> >
> > Do you understand the meaning of the word probably?
> 
> Yes.  In this context it would mean that some task has non-deterministic
> behavior which is being described by probabilities as to whether the
> process would block or not.

No, the use of probably had nothing to do with non-deterministic
behaviour. You're just throwing in another red herring. Probably
referred to most applications will "probably" use blocking IO.
There is a "possibility: that they might want more control over
concurrency and therefore non-block. Neither this nor
concurrency has to do with determinism.

> However, whether a process will suspend or not is deterministic-- either
> it will or it won't depending on whether it used blocking or
> non-blocking I/O.
> 
> Therefore, "probably" is an inappropriate term to use.
> 
> [ ... ]
> >> According to what you've said, if I find Unix a better solution for some
> >> task, then I can't be a "real user of computers"?
> >>
> >> What nonsense....
> >
> > You are correct, your previous statement was nonsense. Please stop
> > putting words in my mouth, and then arguing as if I said them.
> 
> Isn't it odd how you deleted your words which I was responding to?
> Here's what you said:
> 
> > Good, but my exact point is that there is still much progress to be made
> > in the OS area. And certainly if you talk to real users of computers,
> > they find other non-Unix solutions better alternatives

More boring bandying about of words. Sorry I'm not going to waste more
time on this.

> My comment was fully justified by this statement of yours, which in your
> own words was "real users of computers" "find other non-Unix solutions
> better alternatives".
> 
> I have good reason to question both this overgeneralization and the
> reason why you would make an association between "real computer users"
> and "non-Unix solutions".
> 
> > And you are the first to accuse others of the strawman tactic!
> 
> A strawman argument is an attempt to distort someone's argument until it
> says something untrue and then refute this untruth as if you were
> responding to the original argument.
> 
> I didn't distort your words in the above exchange-- the question I asked
> was an obvious way of refuting your overgeneralized claim.  Futhermore,
> I made sure that I quoted everything you'd said instead of snipping off
> the relevant context the way you did.  You cannot accuse me of
> distorting your words when I quoted exactly what you said.

Gee.. distortions on distortions...
 
> I don't resort to strawman arguments.  I don't need to.
> 
> On the other hand, it's a fact that you did resort to strawman arguments
> when you repeatedly claimed that I haven't used other operating systems
> aside from Unix sufficiently.  It's also a fact that you were wrong to
> claim that "Unix is bloated".

And your opening response to me accused me of bias. You have
consistently
been incorrect and fairly rude with it. You are quick to accuse others
of not understanding things when it is you who do not understand.

> I believe you were lying when you claimed that you wanted to have a
> technical discussion, Ian.  I challenge you to disprove my belief by
> addressing the technical points that I have made.  Start by addressing
> your claims about the size of Unix as compared to on the observable
> facts from using the 'du' command.
> 
> Judging from your past and current behavior, however, you'll snip this
> whole section instead of responding to it or admitting the truth.

OK, I won't snip it, but it is off the point, and wasting time. There
are
many other metrics apart from du. Don't start me on that, I'm
not interested.

> >>>> That's why people write software layers on top of the OS, such as
> >>>> OPENSTEP, which provide higher level abstractions which use the more
> >>>> primitive functionality provided by the OS.  And that's where those
> >>>> high-level abstractions belong-- not in the kernel....
> >>>
> >>> Right, but as far as an application is concerned that is the OS.
> >>
> >> You have one of the most bizzare viewpoints I've ever seen.
> >
> > Not at all. From the applications viewpoint, when it calls a system
> > level service for a resource, it is calling the OS.
> 
> That's a tautology-- if you're calling a "SYSTEM level service",
> obviously you're involving the "operating SYSTEM".  However, you can do
> lots of things with OPENSTEP that do not involve system level resources
> and the OS at all.

Tautology? No its abstraction. Really, it doesn't matter whether the
application programmer thinks they are calling the OS or not, or
whether the request is serviced by the OS or not. The applications
programmer wants to know what to provide the service and what they
will get in return. This comes back to design-by-contract, and the
original point that services should be better designed. But you
still haven't got that point.

> >> OPENSTEP is not an operating system; it's an software layer that
> >> provides an abstraction _away_ from the specific OS that the application
> >> runs on, so that the app can do useful things without having to be
> >> written using non-portable, operating-system-specific functionality.
> >
> > Well, I think we're actually saying the same thing here,
> > so I can't see why you were picking an argument above.
> 
> No, we're not-- I'm saying there is a distinction between an OS and
> software components not in the OS which provide useful functionality to
> application.

Well you are throwing in irrelevancies again. You are thinking about
how this is implemented. As I said an application calls a service.
It should not be able to tell at what level of the OS, or in a user
library that service is implemented. That is abstraction to the
program.

> > As I said, to the application, that abstraction you are talking about is
> > the OS. If the application can tell any different, then it's not an
> > abstraction!
> 
> But OPENSTEP provides functionality which does not have any analogue at
> the operating-system level.  It can't possibly provide an abstraction
> for something which does not exist!

Your confused again, thinking of how things are implemented,
rather than the abstraction at an interface.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joyner       | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are
Internet email:  |  for a kingdom, the gentler       | personal and are
i.joyner@acm.org |  gamester is the soonest winner"  | not Unisys
                 |       William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment
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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 21:16:08 -0500
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MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM,UseNet writes:

>> OPENSTEP is the abstracted API which runs on multiple OSs.
OpenStep is

>> the operating system itself. Confusing, isn't it?


>Apparently confusing enough for you to get that exactly wrong :-)


Blushingly, I stand corrected. I did have it exactly backwards.


>OPENSTEP (all caps) is Apple's name for their implementation of the  

>OpenStep specification. More specifically, Apple sells:

>	OPENSTEP for Mach

>	OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT

>Which both implement the OpenStep API on different operating systems.  

>OPENSTEP for Mach also includes our Mach operating system for NeXT  

>computers, Intel PC's, and Sparc workstations. 


>(I just noticed that the "OpenStep compliant" logo uses the wrong  

>capitalization, though. I guess even we don't get it right every time.)


It's interesting the the manuals that come with the developer kit have
OPENSTEP (all caps) on the cover when they refer not the the OS but to
programming the API...



-- 

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

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From: no.spam@no.where (Pascal Bourguignon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: SVGA display drivers and Vertical refresh interrupts...
Date: 26 Feb 1997 03:03:32 GMT
Organization: ImagiNET
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In comp.sys.next.programmer article <331231e0.277699468@news.mindspring.com>  
you wrote:
[...]
> Possibly so, but in this card the card is not the limiting factor.
> NEXT's display architecture is designed around a linear frame buffer,
> ie. if your display adaptor has 2M of memory the operating system
> presents this memory to NEXT's window server as a contiguous block.
>
> The SVGA standard is an extension of VGA, which is limited to a very
> small memory buffer.  To work around the limit, SVGA uses this VGA
> buffer as a "window" into a larger memory buffer, mapping  segments of
> that larger buffer into the VGA memory area as they're needed.  The
> gain is higher resolution and pixel depth at the cost of performance.
>
> NEXT had to jump through hoops to make SVGA work at a depth of 2 bits
> per pixel.  I vaguely recall discusions of the window server
> implementing an exception handler to deal with page faults by calling
> the SVGA driver routine to map in the correct segment and making the
> proper OS calls to fix up the physical-to-virtual memory mapping -
> makes me shudder just thinking about it.
>
> NEXT had to jump through hoops to make SVGA work at a depth of 2 bits
> per pixel.  I vaguely recall discusions of the window server
> implementing an exception handler to deal with page faults by calling
> the SVGA driver routine to map in the correct segment and making the
> proper OS calls to fix up the physical-to-virtual memory mapping -
> makes me shudder just thinking about it.
>
> Anyway, my point is that if 8-bit (256 color) pixel depth performed
> adequately NEXT would have included it in their SVGA implementation.
> Of course, this decision was made before Intel clean room technicians
> started dancing to "Play That Funky Music" and "installing" MMX (more
> money extracted)  technology in their chips.  Maybe today's Pentium
> can handle the load, but I'd bet against being able to implement 8-bit
> depth in a subclass of IOSVGADisplay.
[...]


I'm in the process of adapting the CirrusLogicGD542X driver to  
CirrusLogicGD754X to manager at least 800*600*2 and indeed I have some  
problems: The display is correctly set to 800*600, and in the inialization  
code, I can access all the video memory to set it to some pattern. But DPS does  
not seem to access the lower part of the screen; it displays only 800*512. But  
when I do a screen grab, I get the full 800*600 (it must maintain some back  
store for the screen memory).

I have the documentation of the CL-GD7548, and it seems that I could map the  
video memory linerarly to a continuous range of memory. I intend to implement  
also 800*600*BW:8 and 800*600*RGB:555.

Would you say that I should forget the IOSVGADisplay super class, and implement  
my driver as a mere IODisplay subclass?

Do you have any idea about why it displays only on 800*512?


__Pascal Bourguignon__


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Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:21:13 -0600
From: mark@oaai.com
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
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In article <5etptl$2tb@lal.interserv.com>,
  JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:

>This part interests me, since so far I've only been able to come up
>with a couple pathological/textbook examples where the Objective C
>method would be better than the C++ way.
>
>Could you (briefly) describe a example real-world problem where you
>would choice Objective C over C++???

A few come to mind immediately:

I'd use Objective C over C++ in implementing business object models in,
say, a custom trading application (which represents most of my business
these days).

The reason here is that while ideally you enter into these sorts of
projects with a complete analysis and design in hand, in reality it's
hard to get the model right the first time - traders are interested in
trading, and completely disinterested in participating in system design
sessions :-)

So building such a system means frequent updates to the object model.
Frequent changes mean frequent recompiles, which under C++ because of the
fragile base-class problem often means all too frequent recompiles of the
world, or if you're not careful, mysterious crashes at unexpected points
in the program. This can slow software development substantially.

C++ is not an ideal language for applications that call for iterative
design.

On the other hand [and to illustrate my point that each language has its
strengths] I wouldn't hesitate a second to make use of C++-based
financial calc. libraries *within the same trading system*. Here you need
the speed, your problem domain is well-defined, and the added
expressivity of operator overloading simplifies code and makes it more
readable.

Another area I'd use Objective C over C++ is in the design of graphical
user interfaces and related reusable components. I can think of two
projects where this course of action saved months of work and tens of
thousands of lines of mostly uninteresting and error-prone code.

The first project was one I'd engaged in with a prominent U.S.
telecommunications firm  [which shall remain nameless]. They had spend
two years working on a system implemented in C++. Their interface,
factored in the Model-View-Controller style, was full of code like this:

FooController::populateInterface()
{
  textfield1.setValue(myObject.attrib1);
  slider2.setValue(myObject.attrib2);
 ....
}

FooController::depopulateInterface()
{
  myObject.getAttrib1(textfield1.value());
  myObject.getAttrib2(textfield2.value());
 ....
}

So despite the factoring, the interface and objects were completely
coupled. If the business object model changed and an attribute was added,
removed, or moved from one class to another, developers would have to dig
around reams of controller code to remove all references to said object's
attribute.

When we implemented our interface for a related system, I proposed that
business objects should be wrapped in Objective C object wrappers and
that we should take advantage of the Objective C runtime to create
generic controller objects which would map arbitrary objects to arbitrary
UI elements.

The end result was that we spent a month developing an automatic wrapper
generator in Perl, and an object framework which would visually allow a
developer to drag-and-drop links between UI widgets and a business object
"container" which would perform our UI mapping. Taking advantage of the
built-in Objective C runtime and its introspection facilities allowed us
to build a robust system in virtually no time.

The same framework has been used now in several projects spanning several
industries - it is imminently reusable because it makes no assumptions
whatsoever about the objects it is meant to work with - *any* Objective C
object will do. You just drop it in and it works.

So these are a few specific examples. But perhaps approaching the
question from a slightly different angle might elucidate things further.

As I say, I've worked in mixed environments of Objective C and C++, and
have worked with exceptionally strong developers in both environments.
For many C++ developers, these projects are the first in which they're
exposed to Objective C largely through a database access product called
the Enterprise Objects Framework - a tool which presents standard
relational databases as though they were OODBMSes.

A common exercise I see a lot of C++ developers engage in after working
in the environment for a month or so is to start to explore how the same
framework would be written in C++.

Often they can come up with one mechanism or another in C++ to perform a
particular function of the Objective C -based framework. For instance:

* in Objective C, relationships are "faulted" so that they fill memory in
a "just-in-time" fashion. This behaviour is trivially implemented in
Objective C through the built in message forwarding mechanism. In C++
something similar can be accomplished through the clever use of
smart-pointers.

* in Objective C, qualifiers can be performed in-memory on arbitrary
objects as well as on the database. This behaviour is again trivially
implemented in Objective C through object reflection. In C++ a runtime
can be invented for objects to provide this functionality.

* In Objective C, the framework provides in-memory support for
transactions as well as transparent undo and redo of all business object
operations (ie. no extra coding required). In C++, a combination of a
hand-rolled runtime and notification mechanism can provide this
functionality.

 ....and the list goes on. Ultimately however as the feature list grows,
the developers come to realize that the whole package as implemented in
C++ becomes hoplelessly complex. The language requires you to write too
many lines of code to get the job done.

I summed it up once when discussing my philosophy of programming with a
colleague at a US brokerage [again, nameless :-)]  who seemed to focus on
all the wrong things in software development:

"The software crisis isn't that we can't write programs that run fast
enough, rather it's that we can't write programs quickly enough to
satisfy the ever-increasing demand."

I'd say that there exists a large class of problems where Objective C
more properly addresses this "software crisis" than does C++, and its for
these problems that I'd sooner use Objective C as a solution than C++.


Cheers,
Mark

ps. [phew! thanks for hanging in and reading this far - I guess I wasn't
as brief as I'd hoped to be!]

---
M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Software Systems for the U.S. and Canadian Financial Industries.
15 La Rose Ave. Suite 702, Weston Ontario M9P 1A7 (416)241-3076

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 23:54:20 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 26-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
Unix: You're.. by Ian Joyner@acm.org 
>> I believe you were lying when you claimed that you wanted to have a
>> technical discussion, Ian.  I challenge you to disprove my belief by
>> addressing the technical points that I have made.  Start by addressing
>> your claims about the size of Unix as compared to on the observable
>> facts from using the 'du' command.
>> 
>> Judging from your past and current behavior, however, you'll snip this
>> whole section instead of responding to it or admitting the truth.
>  
> OK, I won't snip it, but it is off the point, and wasting time.

The fact that you were wrong and refuse to acknowledge it is most
certainly relevant.  When I demand that you prove your claims with
specific responses, you dodge the question again and again.

When I make a point, you claim that I'm wrong without providing any
shred of evidence to back up your assertions-- and then when I then
prove that point, you then claim that it somehow wasn't relevant.

> There are many other metrics apart from du.

What precisely does _that_ mean?  Sure, there are lots of tools that
compute the size of a set of files, and all of them would report the
same value for the disk space being used.

This is a red herring of the first order.

> Don't start me on that, I'm not interested.

You have demonstrated that you are completely unable to hold a rational
discussion.  I don't see any point to discussing this further.

-Chuck



         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Tom Johnstone 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:26:57 +0800
Organization: University of Geneva
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To: Garance A Drosehn 
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23105 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:62546 comp.sys.mac.system:202140

Garance A Drosehn wrote:

> There is no good reason that the user would spend any time or energy
> remembering extensions.  And, in fact, they don't under NeXTSTEP.
> The operating system knows the mapping from extensions to applications,
> it isn't something that the user has to "remember".  All the user has
> to do is leave the extension alone.  This is not a hard task.
> 

Not a hard task, but one that many many users can't (or don't) master.
People make mistakes, mess around with things, and just generally stuff
things up all the time. It has to be idiot proof - don't let users
change the type information unless they know what they're doing (i.e.
use a special manu item/dialog box to do this).

Just 5c worth from someone who spends many hours fixing other users'
stuff-ups.

Tom Johnstone
University of Geneva
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From: wef@ct2.nai.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 06:32:44 GMT
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Hello,

I am interested in knowing what the unbiased opinion it out there...
I am considering pouring alot of my resources into a programming
education and career.  In order to maximize the world of programming
these days, one must weigh the difference between C++ and Java.
Please choose you pick and tell me why you think it is the way to go.

Thanks in advance, 
Bill
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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 25 Feb 1997 23:34:48 -0800
Organization: home
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In article <856930544.19004@dejanews.com> mark@oaai.com writes:

   [lots of good points about how Objective C and languages like
   it allow rapid, iterative design and why this is often the
   better approach for real-world applications]

   Often [C++ developers exposed to Objective-C] can come up with one
   mechanism or another in C++ to perform a particular function of the
   Objective C -based framework.  [...] Ultimately however as the
   feature list grows, the developers come to realize that the whole
   package as implemented in C++ becomes hoplelessly complex.

I think this is what we are seeing with COM/OLE/ActiveX.  It is an
attempt to provide in C++ dynamic features as found in Objective-C and
Java.

The irony is that the IDL specifications for ActiveX themselves are
already more complicated than the complete set of extensions
Objective-C makes to C.  Maybe Objective-C would gain wider acceptance
if it were marketed not as a new programming language but simply as an
IDL for C and C++.

On that note, do people know of any packages that interface
Objective-C to COM/OLE/ActiveX?

Thomas.
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Date: 26 Feb 1997 08:48:56 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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wef@ct2.nai.net wrote:
> I am interested in knowing what the unbiased opinion it out there...
> I am considering pouring alot of my resources into a programming
> education and career.  In order to maximize the world of programming
> these days, one must weigh the difference between C++ and Java.
> Please choose you pick and tell me why you think it is the way to go.

Boy will this start a holy war...

Well, here's my $0.02, all IMHO of course:

First, since you posted to a NeXT group, I'd say "learn Objective-C".  :-)

If you must pick between those other two, learn Java first.  There are enough 
similaries between the languages that you can actually jump from one to the 
other pretty easily once you've mastered the underlying concepts.

So, to master OOP, IMHO go with Objective-C, Java, and C++ is the order of 
ease--with C++ it is too easy to get bogged down in details and lose the OO 
perspective.  Java is pretty much middle ground.  (Oversimplified, it is C++ 
syntax with Objective-C semantics underneath)  I think that you'll find that 
same order is also easiest->hardest for learning the syntax and getting a 
grip on the class libraries used in the respective environments.

But, politically, the "hot" order would be Java, C++, and Objective-C, though 
a conservative person would go C++, Java, Objective-C since C++ is so 
entrenched...and is likely to live a long time, as the Cobol of the 90s.  
Then again, it is pretty easy right now to get a job doing Java or 
Objective-C because so few people know the technologies.  :-)

So I guess you have to decide what factors matter most to you--value of the 
skill, conservative security, "hot" factor, ease of learning, etc.

My skills went Basic -> Assembly (6502)-> Pascal -> C -> Objective-C -> C++ 
-> Java (with 680x0 and x86 assembly thrown in for good measure somewhere)  
The biggest jumps conceptually were to assembly and Objective-C, as far as 
the underlying concepts go.  I glad I did the OO jump with Objective-C and 
not C++, or I would have not learned OO very well, I suspect.  Syntax wise, 
C++ is still a bitch and I hate using it.  Java is a cakewalk with the others 
as a background.

I don't see any reason why you should have to limit yourself to a single 
language, though.  Grab a few good books and just dive on in.  The more 
languages you know, the more marketable you are, because your ability won't 
be tied to a single language's quirks; you'll understand the "big picture" 
better and be a better programmer for it.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: kluev@macsimum.gamma.ru (Michael Kluev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:19:00 +0300
Organization: MACsimum Ltd.
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In article , shess@one.net (Scott
Hess) wrote:

>In article <5ejgug$oij@usenet.rpi.edu>,
>        Garance A Drosehn  writes:
>   shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
>   > It's the latency that's important.  If an inode has 96 bytes of
>   > information, you can fit 10 inodes in a 1k fragment.  If an inode
>   > has 128 bytes, you can only fit 8, if it has 160 bytes, you can
>   > only fit 6.
>
>   I do not buy the argument that there will be a significant
>   (obvious-to-the-user) performance penalty ...
>
>   The overhead should only come when opening files, and it isn't
>   going to be all *that* much different.
>
>Well, I'm not really arguing that adding a couple bits to the
>structures is going to affect anything in a truly user-visible
>fashion.  I'm concerned with the drawing of the line - if we're going
>to add such-and-such bits, well, lets also add these other bits, too.
>Also, I'm arguing that there are trivial bits and there are important
>bits.  If we fill out the filesystem structures with trivial bits, we
>might restrict later addition of important bits.
>
>   > In essence, that's what this thread is about - the creation
>   > timestamp is one more bit of info helpful to the user.  I'm
>   > arguing that this bit is very seldom used, and though it might be
>   > useful periodically, it's not useful frequently enough to be
>   > worth hazarding throughput.  If you make the things the user does
>   > hundreds of times a day fast, it's not too painful if you make
>   > the things they do once a week a bit slower.
>
>   Note that if one uses a resource-fork approach to storing little
>   bits of info, then you have fewer catalog lookups to do (which is
>   to say, the application is doing fewer file-open operations).  I
>   think it would be inconsistent to wail and moan about adding a tiny
>   bit of overhead to a file-open, but then be quite comfortable and
>   gung-ho about organizing information in such a way that greatly
>   increases the number of file-open's which are done every time an
>   application is launched or a document is opened.  If file opens are
>   so expensive in the first case, then we should not be so calm about
>   them in the second case.
>
>Hold on!  If you make the arbitrary assumption that _all_ files have
....

Finder Information.

People, remember, that HFS maintains other useful information
(called user or Finder info). I am talking about current scroll
position for directories, icon position for items, etc. If there
are methods to hide this information in wrappers w/o speed penalty,
I'll go for it. But, I really doubt, that showing window full of
icons that will do openfile operations on each file (to get icon
position) would be comparably fast with showing window full of
icons that will do GetCatInfo/stat operation to get icon position.
(This is about generic, not custom icons. (Exercise: why?))

The same reasoning (speed penalty) is applied as well to things
like color labels, file types, etc.

Last access time.

Speaking about "... doesn't work well in multiuser environment".
If you buy this argument (and I do to some extent), than you
should buy the following: the field that holds "last access time"
in the file information doesn't work well on read only media.
(In fact it doesn't work at all on read only media.) Current
(future?) Mac users do encounter "read only media" much often
than "multiuser environment". Thus this field should be stripped.

Symbolic links.

Traditional symbolic links don't work for Mac users. Mac users
are creatures that like to drag things around as paper clips on
their desk, screwing up paths in symbolic links. BTW, HFS aliases
include path information as a subset. Parent IDs in aliases make
it possible to find files even if they were moved.

Some questions.

1. What file/directory management API is there in the Next?
   Is it path based? Is it like:
"open("dir/subdir1/subdir2/subdir3/subdir4/file"?
   Or more like HFS way:
"open(parID, "file")"
   where parID is the id of "subdir4"?

2. Is Next File system crash-safe? (Crash = turning power off here.)

PS. "comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior" was removed from
this article's header.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Kluev                            kluev@macsimum.gamma.ru
Macintosh Programmer                           Physics Grad, MSU
MACsimum Ltd.                                     Moscow, Russia
----------------------------------------------------------------
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From: spamwall~mouser@zercom.net (Martiin-Gilles Lavoie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Librarian book on Display PostScript?
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:27:02 -0500
Organization: Internet-Login
Lines: 14
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.191.6.123

I have recently aquired a NeXT Station Color system in order to get ahead
for Apple's upcomming Rhapsody.

I have found the Librarian tool quite helpfull, and it's documentation
next to being complete (pin-outs included).  However, I was wondering is a
Librarian book on Display PostScript (and PostScript in general) is
available?

MGL

(And I _do_ have the Reg, Green and blue books, among others...I'm just
looking for an on-line version).

Please reply my e-mail as well. 
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From: phenix@interpath.com (John Moreno)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:13:31 -0500
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Garance A Drosehn  wrote:

-snip-
] 
] The main difference between the two platforms is the way that a
] document is opened when you double-click on it.  Yes, I can drag-
] and-drop to "open by file type", but when I am opening a document
] I'm not always eager to go hunting for the application I want to
] use (particularly since there are many different places that I get
] applications from, when I'm on my Mac.  File servers, etc).
] 
] > Perhaps it would be nice to have an additional "File" menu item
] > which forces Easy Open to query the operating system for all apps
] > that claim to handle the file type.
] 
] I'm not sure that would work well (I'm having trouble envisioning
] how it would work).  I think I'd rather have something like "AppSizer"
] (a control panel available for the Mac), except that it'd list the
] applications matching the document (instead of showing the memory
] size) based on some special command-key at launch.

I'm fairly sure that what he means is that they should add a "Open Via
MEO..." menu in the finders File Menu, a bad idea in my opinion -
although doing the same thing with a command-click does seem viable.
Which is strange since I usually object to having "hidden" commands.

] Hmm.  That paragraph might not make sense unless you know what I
] mean by AppSizer...
] 
] > On the other hand, I can't honestly think of a time when I wanted
] > to open a file by other than the creator when the desired app
] > wasn't already visible, generally in the launcher.
] 
] Happens to me fairly often on my Macs, but then I have no desire
] to setup the launcher.  Some of the appleshare servers I use are
] not under my control, and I don't want to spend time trying to
] recreate the filesystem in some launcher setup.  Using the launcher
] would probably work fine on my Mac at home, but it would not work
] well on the Mac in my office, or for the Macs in public labs.

If this happens to you fairly often I'd recommend that you get a
shareware program called "The Tilery".  The default action of the
program is to put a tile - a shadowed box with the file/applications
name in it - along the left edge.  I have mine configured to put the
tiles at the right and moving left.  You can drag and drop any file on
any application that supports that file type.

-- 
John Moreno
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From: tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:16:23 -0600
Organization: The Wandering Powerbook...
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In article <5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu>,
nurban@csugrad.cs.vt.edu (Nathan M. Urban) wrote:

>In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis Butler)
>wrote:
>
>> I'm blathering on about this because it seems like a large number of the
>> arguments by NeXT partisans boil down to 'it has to be this way if you're
>> on a multiuser system.' Well, as I said, I don't WANT a multiuser system;
>
>Well I'm sorry, but too bad.  Apple is not going to redesign the entire
>filesystem to make single users a little happier when it means
>sacrificing multiuser capability and returning to 80's technology.  

Really. My congratulations on your 'inside source,' then, because nothing
I've seen anywhere else suggests that Apple has made such a decision, or
even made a decision at all yet. 

Many NeXT partisans keep speaking as if the MacOS isn't a valid OS in its
own right, and any use of MacOS features or system design in Rhapsody
constitutes a 'redesign' or 'crippling' of NeXTStep. This is REALLY
beginning to irritate me. Well, let me give them a clue: while Apple is
still vague on many technical details of Rhapsody, they have stated from
the beginning that Rhapsody is going to be a *merger* of the best elements
of MacOS and NeXTStep, not NeXTStep thinly papered over. NeXTStep is going
to be redesigned to some degree, just as MacOS will be redesigned to some
degree. Get used to it.

And if we're going to talk about '80's technology', then what about the
antiquated directory hierarchy of Unix's *1970's* technology? Technology
should move forward, not back, and I think the Mac made some real
innovations in the way files were handled -- handicapped in later years by
implementation decisions that weren't forward-thinking enough, like the
allocation block limit.

IMHO, the resource fork was a major innovation -- a method that allowed
customizable elements of an application to be seperated out for easy
editing, or attatching meta-data (like high-level formatting or
window-positioning information) to a straight datafile -- while still
keeping the file as one coherent unit in the filesystem, that can be easily
moved from location to location without worrying about losing any of the
bits. That's the major objection I have to the 'wrapper' concept: it forces
the filesystem* to deal with organizing all the various parts of an
application or datafile with meta-data -- when IMHO this should be handled
at a higher level of the OS, the part that actually runs the application or
uses the meta-data. The filesystem shouldn't have to keep track of these
issues -- that should be the responsibility of the code that actually uses
all the different parts.

*(And, by extension, any operation that deals with the *real* filesystem at
the file-by-file level, instead of the abstraction of the wrapper level --
such as duplicating applications or files, running applications over a
network, or transmitting files to a remote location. Not to mention file
searching utilities, utilities for measuring and managing disk usage...)

Separating file Type information from the filename, and adding Creator
information, was another beneficial innovation. There are literally dozens
of utilities that can be used to access and change them, but they're
protected from accidental change. Also, removing extensions from the
filename give users more freedom in naming files. I don't like the idea
some suggest of leaving extensions in place but hiding them from the user:
while I want some details abstracted from users, I *also* want the file
browser (whether it's the Finder or the NeXTStep browser) to reflect the
true state of the filesystem. (Another reason why I dislike the wrapper
concept, by the by.) I also like the concept and general operation of the
Finder's Desktop Database, based in large part on Type/Creator information,
though the execution is not up to the concept.

>You can go on all you want about Apple's targeted market, 

More on this below.

>but it's a step backwards and Apple's not going to take it.  

Really. Again, moving from the 80's MacOS filesystem to the 70's Unix
filesystem is a step forward in technology? Granted, the 80's technology
has problems -- but the answer is to fix them, not go back to a more
limiting concept.

I find it interesting that one of the touted features of BeOS -- one of
only a couple of 'designed-from-the-ground-up' personal computer OS's in
this decade -- is an OS-level 'file database'. I haven't seen many details
on it, but what I've heard sounds like something that moves even further in
the direction pointed by the items I like about the MacOS.

>HFS is one reason why Macs
>are not considered seriously in server environments.

Perhaps, but what *part* of HFS? I agree some of the underlying structural
elements of HFS are crippling the MacOS filesystem, as I state above, and
those things I want to see fixed. But I don't want to remove the good
elements of the MacOS filesystem in the process.

>> and in my experience, this holds true for the vast majority of machines
>> outside of a lab environment.
>
>Actually, I know of quite a few machines both in work and home
>environments which more than one person uses. 

I know a few used by multiple people in homes, granted -- but I only know
of one who *wanted* multiuser login and security features, and his needs
were handled by At Ease. In fact, that's exactly the model I think *should*
be used for multiple users on a *personal* computer: make the OS optimized
for individual users, who in my experience make up the majority of personal
computer users, and make multiuser login/security features an OPTIONAL
add-in for those who need it.

In the places I've worked at (see below), with the exception of the
computer labs -- once in a while someone will need to use someone else's
machine, and trainees worked alongside their 'mentors' on their machines,
but by and large everyone has their own computer.

>And there are still good
>reasons for having a multiuser machine even if only one person uses it.

Why? Again, why cripple a single user's experience for multiuser support
that is never used?

>> I don't mind having things in there for the
>> benefit of multiuser setups, as long as they don't get in the way of
>> ordinary single-user operation; but if there's a conflict, I think
>> multiuser features have to take a back seat to convenience features for
>> single users.
>
>There really are not very many instances where having a multiuser
>filesystem seriously inconveniences single users, your opinions
>notwithstanding.

Then why does your side of the argument keep bringing up reasons that
things can't be done the 'Mac way' because they interfere with multiuser
operation?

>> To the point at hand: I think it makes a lot more sense for the default to
>> be the application that created a file.
>
>I don't.  I've used Macs and I've used NEXTSTEP and I like the NEXTSTEP
>way far better.  I don't want to get a file from somebody and have it
>open in whatever _they_ like to use.  I want all GIFs to open in my
>preferred GIF viewer, etc.

Your preference -- and the Mac system doesn't preclude this, as there are
utilities that make the Mac operate the way you want things to work. (Not
to mention the drag-and-drop method, which is actually simpler on a Mac as
there's no need to hold down a modifier key.) But while the Mac way doesn't
preclude *your* preferred operation style, NeXTStep's system *does*
preclude *my* preferred style. I want to associate certain documents of a
type with one application, and other documents of that type with another
application, and from everything I've seen in these threads, NeXTStep won't
let you do that. If your style of operation is still possible, why do you
object to the possibility of my style of operation?

>> Again based on my experience,
>> people generally create a file with the application they want to use to
>> work with it.
>
>They may create it with one application, and then prefer to view it
>from then on using another.  

Fine. Create it in the first application, then open it in the second
application and do a Save As. But again, from a common-sense standpoint:
Why create it in one application instead of a second, unless the first has
options the second doesn't that apply to that particular file? And in that
case, doesn't it make more sense to keep opening it in the application with
those options, as long as you actually keep editing that file? Or you might
start primarily needing options in the second app, in which case you're
probably going to want the default to be the second app, and you'd do a
Save As from that app. Or you need to use options from both programs, in
which case you're better off using drag-and-drop under either OS.

Note that I'm talking about files that you *work* with, not files intended
primarily for viewing, which IMHO are a special case.

>Or they may prefer to view a document
>someone sends them with one viewer application rather than a full-blown
>editor.  

Files intended primarily for viewing are the other major exception (besides
data acquisition) that I can think of to the rule above. But I don't find
this exception justifies the use of a single-app-for-all-files utility 
(which, as I said, are available for the Mac). 90%+ of these view-only
files that I see come off the Internet or other on-line services; and
InternetConfig allows you to assign default type/creator information for
incoming files, via MIME type or file extension, so that isn't a problem.
Using drag-and-drop on the few remaining files is not any particular hassle
for me.

>But that's the point you just made below.  

Not at all. I was talking about data acquisition, which is a completely
different kettle of fish from file viewing. In data acquisition, you use a
program to get data from a specialized source -- like LabView, or an OCR
program, or a custom scanner application for scanners that don't use a
Photoshop plug-in. But once you've acquired the data, you're not going to
use the acquisition program to do further editing, so it makes sense to
change the creator app for that file by using Save As from within your
editing app. 

The case of pulling up a file in a quick viewer app is completely
different. In this case, you're using a viewer to pull up a file for a
quick look, but it's not what you'd use to edit a file; here, setting the
default to the editing app, and using drag-and-drop to open it in the
viewer, makes more sense. Unless the file is intended primarily for
viewing, which I cover above.

>There are a _lot_
>of exceptions though, at least with the files I typically work with.

Obviously, we have different working environments and different working
styles, which is fine. However, one thing that keeps getting me to post in
this thread is the way NeXT users seem to think it's fine if Mac users get
forced into their way of doing things, even if it's not vice-versa. Take
this example - the Mac lets you do things your preferred way *and* mine,
NeXTStep only lets you do things your way, yet you seem to feel opening up
both possibilities is an imposition on you. Or take the OS directory
structure: Macs let you organize your applications any way you want,
including a Unix-style application tree; NeXTStep locks you into the Unix
directory straightjacket. Yet someone I responded to a couple of weeks ago
was saying that Mac users should not be allowed to organize things their
way, even if it didn't keep him from organizing things his way. 

>And the documents that I both create and view with the same application
>are usually with an application that has its own document format, so
>opening by type doesn't make any difference anyway.

I think part of this gets back to the idea of meta-data and a resource
fork. On the Mac, it's quite possible to create files in a standard file
format where another platform might require a custom file format, because
the application's custom data can be stored in the resource fork. Nisus
Writer is an example of this. It's a full-fledged word processor, with
extensive formatting options; but it stores its files in plain ASCII format
in the data fork, because all the formatting information is stored in the
resource fork. Obviously, you'd prefer to edit and view the file in Nisus
Writer; however, if you need to get at just the text data in the file, you
can view and access it from any application that can read text files.
Wouldn't you say this is a better solution than using a custom word
processing file format? 

A different example is TIFF files; they can be recognized and edited by
both Photoshop and Fractal Design Painter, but each program can do *very*
different things with those files.

Or take some 'custom' formats that have been around long enough, and are
prevalent enough, that many different programs can read them: WKS files
from 1-2-3, for example, or MacWrite documents. 

All of these are examples of files that can be opened and even edited in
multiple applications, but where there can be distinct advantages in
opening some files of that type in one application, and some in another.

>> The exceptions I see are usually data-acquisition situations
>> (including working with scanned images), where you use one program to get
>> the file, and a second program to manipulate it.
>
>> In this situation, it
>> makes far more sense to have a file-by-file preference, allowing styled
>> text files to open in SimpleText by default, and other text files in
>> BBEdit. 
>
>In practice, I think Apple will probably add something like this,
>probably in the form of a user-level database of file->app associations.

A user-level database that *makes* a user specify preferences file-by-file,
instead of letting the Type/Creator system handle it automatically? A
system-level database that maintains an entire file-by-file list of
exceptions, *on top of* the filesystem? Gaaaah. A Creator field would be
much simpler, IMHO.

>> >It's very easy for a multiuser OS to act like a single-user OS, as
>> >NEXTSTEP did with the default 'me' user.  The reverse is not true, and
>
>> I'm afraid it's your premise that's not true, as you and other NeXT users
>> prove every time you use 'it can't be done that way on a multiuser OS' as
>> an argument -- as you just did above.
>
>It's easy to do, within _reasonable_ constraints.  The 'me' account is
>quite good at fooling people into thinking the machine is a single-user
>one.  But once you start doing idiotic things like writing
>information about which application should open a document directly into
>the filesystem, 

Again, I think your prejudices towards a multiuser system are showing. It's
only 'idiotic' -- not that I think it's even that -- in a multiuser
setting, and IMHO makes a heckuva lot of sense in a single-user setting.
This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about, where a multiuser
capacity that few will use should take second fiddle to making it better
for single users.

And really, it isn't even doing much to the *filesystem* -- just adding an
extra field to a file record for holding creator information, which can
then be used by the higher-level OS for anything you want.

>then there's no hope of a multiuser system remaining a
>multiuser system.  If you put that kind of information in a _per-user_
>database, where it belongs, then things work perfectly fine and the user
>is none the wiser.

I see that as adding additional layers of complexity, which isn't even
necessary for those people in a single-user situation. 

>> If many of the conveniences and
>> operating methods that Mac users are used to can't be done on a multiuser
>> OS, then it's obvious that a multiuser OS can't act like the Mac
>> single-user OS.
>
>It's all a matter of efficiency.  A multiuser OS can emulate a
>single-user one just fine.

Perhaps 'a' single-user one. But again, your own statements say that some
things that I, at least, find beneficial in a single-user system can't be
done in a multiuser system. You're sidestepping the issue: Can you do
everything in a multiuser OS that Mac users can currently do in its
single-user OS, without adding Byzantine levels of complexity? From what
I'm seeing, the answer appears to be No.

>> Not if it compromises Apple's traditional ease of use, and especially not
>> if it's for a minority of users.
>
>And another thing.  Stop pretending you speak for the majority.  

OK, this really annoys me. I'm not trying to get into a credentials duel
here, but let me state where I'm coming from. I've been using Macs since
1984, and helped found the Kansas City Mac user's group. I worked for three
years in the CS labs when I was going to college. After graduation, I spent
two years doing computer graphics at a sillkscreening shop; after that, two
years working phone tech support at APS Technologies, the hard drive
company, which involved working with a *lot* of users from all across the
board. I'm currently the computer specialist for a small Midwestern
distributor, and do some part-time Mac support for a local ISP. I've worked
with Macs a lot, obviously; I've also worked some with Windows machines,
Unix machines, and even with a NeXT cube around 1990-91. I'd like to think
that gives me a fairly broad base of experience, with the exception of
large corporate settings; though I know it also brings in its own set of
biases. 

Apologies for being blunt: The ONLY place I've seen prevalent attitudes
similar to yours and other Unix/NeXT partisans was at the university, and
among the technical staff at the ISP. They may be present in the corporate
environments that I've had little experience with. But I have yet to see
them held commonly, let alone as a majority, among individual/small
business users or among the users I've done support for over the years. I'm
not trying to be insulting, but how much experience have *you* had working
with average users -- not in a university environment, and not computer
specialists?

>Mac users probably prefer the Mac way because it's the only thing they
>know.  

Obviously false in my case, though admittedly I haven't used later versions
of NeXTStep.

>NEXTSTEP users generally have used NEXTSTEP _and_ Macs (or
>something else).  The fact that they still prefer the NEXTSETP way says
>something.

I don't have a very broad base to draw on, admittedly, because there is
little or no NeXTStep presence in this region.  However, in response
to a post a few weeks ago, I talked to someone who's as you describe. He
said much the same thing, and that he picked up using the NeXT as a novice
user -- but he also said that he was interested in the inner workings of
the OS and in learning Unix when he started.

My suspicion (based, I admit, mainly on the attitudes of NeXT partisans in
these threads) is that the average NeXTStep user is technically proficient
or is willing to become so, has an interest in computers beyond what it
takes to get his job done (or has a job where interest in computers is the
primary factor ), does not mind (or even prefers) using the CLI for some
operations, and often runs high-end networking and/or server operations.
How many of the people who "generally have used NEXTSTEP _and_ Macs" and
prefer NeXTStep fit this profile? As I said above, the only places I've
really seen this profile are in the university environment and in the tech
staff at the ISP; it certainly doesn't fit the majority of users I've
worked with on the support line. 

While I'm trying to keep an open mind, I'm afraid the technical bent of the
NeXT proponents may be blinding them to the issues of working with Joe
Average User. I've spent years doing support for Joe Average User, and I'm
afraid he'll balk at some of the things NeXTStep users take for granted;
moreover, I don't like the ideas of simply hiding the complexities of Unix
under a GUI hood that have been tossed around, because my fear (fueled,
admittedly, by occasional experiences in supporting Windows users) is that
you can't hide them forever, and at some point Joe Average User is going to
have to deal with them. 



Travis Butler
(The Professor, formerly of Myth and Magick!, Lawrence, KS;
 tbutler@tfs.net, now from the Wandering Powerbook;
 ;
 Mac page )

...Cats are the proof of a higher purpose to the universe.
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From: younghoon KIL 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: bifrostworks link doesn't work...
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:57:33 +0900
Organization: KORNET
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <33145CF4.58C9@soback.kornet.nm.kr>
References:  <331062A4.2A19@soback.kornet.nm.kr> 
Reply-To: ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr
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To: "Noah M. Daniels" 
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.hardware:27476 comp.sys.next.programmer:23113 comp.sys.next.software:28267

Noah M. Daniels wrote:
>However, the bifrostworks link doesn't work... the domain does not
> exist. I also tried bitfrostworks.com, in case you made a typo, but that
> didn't work either. Any ideas?

http://www.bifrostworks.com/

Now, They work.
Please vist their web-site.



younghoon KIL 
ppai@soback.kornet.nm.kr 
http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~ppai 
(NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP Q&A & Info Board written in Korean)
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From: TH Fanning 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:31:52 -0600
Organization: Argonne National Laboratory
Message-ID: <33145768.42D7@ra.anl.gov>
References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <32FAB1C7.3AE4@pharmacology.unimelb.edu.au> <5dqhrc$pm8@news.bu.edu> <3300D85D.2DC9@subsequent.com> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu> <33029F59.5E8D@subsequent.com> <330324FB.E67@cygnus.com> <3302E06E.8D@subsequent.com> <5ek5is$3d9@crl9.crl.com> <5erca9$m2@usenet.rpi.edu>
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Garance A Drosehn wrote:
> 
[...]
> Not sure how this effects your point, but as an aside I do think
> the "defaults database" of NeXTSTEP works better than having every
> application have it's own preference file...

I completely disagree with this.  What if I try tons of
software, each one adding to my "defaults database", but
then I delete these apps from my system.  Wouldn't the
database slowly grow over time?  How do I "clean" it
out?  With separate files, I can just trash them.

-- 
Tom Fanning
mailto:fanning@ra.anl.gov
-------------------------------------------------------------
Money can't buy happiness -- then again, neither can poverty.
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From: melissab@shamu.mtn.ncahec.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: objective c
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:50:13 -0500
Organization: Mountain AHEC
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I am a student researching object oriented languages, specifically
objective c.  I need some input from real world users!  How you use
objective c , which compiler, your opinion of the languages
(like,dislike) , ease of use, and what application you are using it for
etc...Per your permission I will use your name and affiliation in my
paper plus your opinion of the product.  Much thanks in advance! Melissa
Boring
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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 09:58:26 -0500
Organization: Disney Online
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mark@oaai.com wrote:

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  In article <5etptl$2tb@lal.interserv.com>,
    JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:

  >This part interests me, since so far I've only been able to come up

  >with a couple pathological/textbook examples where the Objective C
  >method would be better than the C++ way.
  >
  >Could you (briefly) describe a example real-world problem where you

  >would choice Objective C over C++???

        http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet


I have a commercial c++framework that handles and manipulates business
objects. It passes and receives these objects in some type of container
class that comes with the framework, let's call it Array. I want to
customize the behaviour of that array with special types of sorting that
are not supported out-of-the-box. I can't subclass Array, because it's
already embedded in the framework and there are no hooks for telling the
framework classes whiich container to use. Sooo... in c++ Ihave to
perform the sorting external to the array. In other words, instead of

myArray.elementsSortedByAlpha()

I have to ask the array for all of its elements and then, somewhere in a
controller like class, sort the array. So now I have code that operates
on the state of the Array class living outside the Array class! How
object oriented. Even better, when, in another app, I decide I need that
same sorting behaviour on Array, since the sorting code didn't get added
directly to Array, I now have to copy the sorting code into my next app.
Reuse through cut-and-paste.

In Obj-C, I can add methods to *existing* classes without subclassing.
It's called Categories. I simply add the elementsSortedByAlpha method to
the Array class, and then:

[myArray elementsSortedByAlpha].

The sorting code is where it belongs, attached to the state on which it
operates. Any time i use the the Array class Ihave access to it. This
feature is very powerfull (and dangerous). By applying Categories to the
root class, you can extend the behaviour of *all*objects in your
system. In practice, this turns out to be immensely usefull (hardly
pathological) and has allowed Next to cleanly and elegantly implement
things that would be very messy in c++.
Obj-C supports, IMHO, better design than c++.

There are many other features of Obj-C that one could argue are superior
to c++(varying not only the receiver, but also the message, at
run-time: dynamic method invocation/ a deep sense of introspection).
Iused Categories because it is the one extremely usefull feature that
Obj-C has but Java is missing (though in the balance, Ithink Java
wins). I wouldn't be inclined  to compare a dynamic language like
Obj-Cto c++-- it's a difficult comparison. Compare it with other
dynamic languages like Java.
--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:05:02 -0500
Organization: Disney Online
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Don Yacktman wrote:

  wef@ct2.nai.net wrote:
  > I am interested in knowing what the unbiased opinion it out
  there...
  > I am considering pouring alot of my resources into a programming
  > education and career.  In order to maximize the world of
  programming
  > these days, one must weigh the difference between C++ and Java.
  > Please choose you pick and tell me why you think it is the way to
  go.

  Boy will this start a holy war...

  Well, here's my $0.02, all IMHO of course:

  First, since you posted to a NeXT group, I'd say "learn
  Objective-C".  :-)

  If you must pick between those other two, learn Java first.  There
  are enough
  similaries between the languages that you can actually jump from one
  to the
  other pretty easily once you've mastered the underlying concepts.

  So, to master OOP, IMHO go with Objective-C, Java, and C++ is the
  order of
  ease--with C++ it is too easy to get bogged down in details and lose
  the OO
  perspective.  Java is pretty much middle ground.  (Oversimplified,
  it is C++
  syntax with Objective-C semantics underneath)  I think that you'll
  find that
  same order is also easiest->hardest for learning the syntax and
  getting a
  grip on the class libraries used in the respective environments.

  But, politically, the "hot" order would be Java, C++, and
  Objective-C, though
  a conservative person would go C++, Java, Objective-C since C++ is
  so
  entrenched...and is likely to live a long time, as the Cobol of the
  90s.
  Then again, it is pretty easy right now to get a job doing Java or
  Objective-C because so few people know the technologies.  :-)

  So I guess you have to decide what factors matter most to you--value
  of the
  skill, conservative security, "hot" factor, ease of learning, etc.

  My skills went Basic -> Assembly (6502)-> Pascal -> C -> Objective-C
  -> C++
  -> Java (with 680x0 and x86 assembly thrown in for good measure
  somewhere)
  The biggest jumps conceptually were to assembly and Objective-C, as
  far as
  the underlying concepts go.  I glad I did the OO jump with
  Objective-C and
  not C++, or I would have not learned OO very well, I suspect.
  Syntax wise,
  C++ is still a bitch and I hate using it.  Java is a cakewalk with
  the others
  as a background.

  I don't see any reason why you should have to limit yourself to a
  single
  language, though.  Grab a few good books and just dive on in.  The
  more
  languages you know, the more marketable you are, because your
  ability won't
  be tied to a single language's quirks; you'll understand the "big
  picture"
  better and be a better programmer for it.

  --
  Later,

  -Don Yacktman
  don@misckit.com
  My home page

 Explicit memory management (malloc,free,lack of gc,), non object
structures (structs, unions, etc), pointers, name-space collisions. Don,
I'm not sure why Obj-C would be a better paragon of OOP. I would
certainly agree that Obj-C does a number of things better than Java, but
one could easily argue that there are a larger number of things that
Java does better than Obj-C.

Of course, I fully agree with your primary assertion-- you shouldn't
even bother comparing c++ with dynamic languages like Obj-C and Java.
c++ isn't in that league.

--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: Steve Barnet <"mailer-daemon"@[127.0.0.1]>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:09:34 -0600
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Travis Butler wrote:
> 

[snip]

> 
> I know a few used by multiple people in homes, granted -- but I only know
> of one who *wanted* multiuser login and security features, and his needs
> were handled by At Ease. In fact, that's exactly the model I think *should*
> be used for multiple users on a *personal* computer: make the OS optimized
> for individual users, who in my experience make up the majority of personal
> computer users, and make multiuser login/security features an OPTIONAL
> add-in for those who need it.
> 
> In the places I've worked at (see below), with the exception of the
> computer labs -- once in a while someone will need to use someone else's
> machine, and trainees worked alongside their 'mentors' on their machines,
> but by and large everyone has their own computer.
> 
> >And there are still good
> >reasons for having a multiuser machine even if only one person uses it.
> 
> Why? Again, why cripple a single user's experience for multiuser support
> that is never used?
> 

[snip]

It may be time to draw the distinction between multi-user and multi-tasker 
systems. I suspect that Travis is correct in his assupmtion that for most 
Mac users a multiple-user system is not a requirement or a necessity. I 
also suspect that if you ask the average Mac user whether they need 
preemptive multi-tasking they'll say no (after looking a bit confused). 
Same with memory protection.

However, if you ask them whether they'd whether they'd like a more stable 
system with fewer chances of extensions conflicting or apps not playing 
nicely with each other they'd say yes. They don't particularly care that 
the mechanisms are PMT and memory protection. 

[snip]

> Perhaps 'a' single-user one. But again, your own statements say that some
> things that I, at least, find beneficial in a single-user system can't be
> done in a multiuser system. You're sidestepping the issue: Can you do
> everything in a multiuser OS that Mac users can currently do in its
> single-user OS, without adding Byzantine levels of complexity? From what
> I'm seeing, the answer appears to be No.
> 
[snip]

I don't think it's necessarily impossible, but it will be necessary to 
change some of the underlying assumptions in the system design. In some 
cases this may result in changes that are visible to the user. This is 
not necessarily a bad thing. If the advantages outweigh the disadvantages 
(in the eyes of the average user), such changes can be accepted with 
relatively little outcry.

It seems to me that the real issues that must be addressed are related 
to interoperability. This is really the root of the ongoing filesystem 
flame war. If Apple is willing to relegate itself to the home user and 
nothing else, the file structure is irrelevant. They have only to remain 
consistent with themselves.

If, on the other hand, they would like to penetrate corporate environments 
and grab an appreciable chunk of the server market, they will have to make 
some hard choices. UNIXish systems dominate the server market and Wintel 
pretty well has a hammer lock on the desktop. If they want to gain market 
share in those markets, they will have to play nicely with others even 
if the Mac offers superior solutions in certain places.

In some cases, playing nicely may mean nothing more than a lot more work 
for Apple engineers (ie they have to write code to integrate the Mac way 
with that of the heathen unbelievers). Everyone's happy. In other cases, 
however, it may be necessary to change some fundamentals (ie two fork 
files may have to go the way of the dinosaur). Now the longtime Mac users 
are not happy because things changed visibly.

So if you're Apple, what do you do? If you want to stay alive as a 
company you preserve as much as you can of your superior technology, 
but sacrifice where you have to to make interoperability painless. 
Those choices are not easy and it can be difficult to tell into which 
category a particular choice falls, but that is what it will boil down 
to in the end.

My .02 monetary units

Best,

---Steve

-- 
Steve Barnet--System Administrator   steve.barnet@ssec.wisc.edu
UW-Madison Space Science and Engineering Center
I'm not a rocket scientist, but I play one on TV
(608)263-2268
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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: access adaptor
Date: 26 Feb 1997 17:19:47 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
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Hi all,

Just a little question about access adaptor ..

With OpenStep, we have the possibility to make our applications running on NT.
Does someone work on an access adaptor ?

Does someone have any informations about that ?

thanks for your answers ...

YANNICK

-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 26 Feb 1997 12:39:09 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article <3313D7B1.639F@fapse.unige.ch>, johnston@fapse.unige.ch wrote:

> Garance A Drosehn wrote:

> > There is no good reason that the user would spend any time or energy
> > remembering extensions.

> Not a hard task, but one that many many users can't (or don't) master.

I think someone else may have already suggested this, but it shouldn't
be hard to modify the File Viewer so that if you select a filename in
order to change it, it only selects the non-extension portion and won't
allow you to select any part of the extension.  (Allowing you to change
the extension could be lumped in the "Unix Expert" mode in Preferences
or something.)
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: PAScrollViewDeLuxe
Date: 26 Feb 1997 17:26:41 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Message-ID: <5f1roh$fsn@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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Hi,

I am looking for the PAScrollViewDeLuxe palette.

Does someone know where i can find it ??
Or can some send it to me by mail ...

thanks for your help

YANNICK

-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:50:03 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
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In article <33145768.42D7@ra.anl.gov> TH Fanning   
writes:
> Garance A Drosehn wrote:
> > 
> [...]
> > Not sure how this effects your point, but as an aside I do think
> > the "defaults database" of NeXTSTEP works better than having every
> > application have it's own preference file...
> 
> I completely disagree with this.  What if I try tons of
> software, each one adding to my "defaults database", but
> then I delete these apps from my system.  Wouldn't the
> database slowly grow over time?  How do I "clean" it
> out?  With separate files, I can just trash them.

In practise this isn't a problem, as the entries that go in the defaults  
database are small (larger amounts of data tend to get created in  
~/Library). They can be deleted (or edited) using Defaults.app.

However thats not to say that the database couldn't or shouldn't be  
organised as a series of files - infact thats probably a good way of doing  
it.

The important thing is the programmer api which manipulates the db. How  
the db s stored is not important. The trick is that theres a neat easy to  
use interface which stores the preferences in a manner which is standard,  
and largely hidden from the user (but available for manipulation by  
experiences users). As such it IS better than the Mac system where apps  
create files in system/Preferences, but not because of the file format it  
uses.

$an
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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 26 Feb 1997 10:18:23 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
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[Much ado about inode changes deleted]

Just a reminder.  If you modify the Unix FS used on the local disk to add  
type/creator information to the inode, it's guaranteed that this  
information will not be expressed or preserved over industry standard   
networking mechanisms without inserting Mac-specific mechanisms.

In effect, you would reproduce the current situation.  While this might be  
OK for standalone use, network interoperability would require the use of  
Mac-specific tools and some 'special education' of IS staff to export and  
share Mac documents over the network, just as with the current Mac  
products.  While Macintosh advocates can and do point out that such tools  
exist, IS management sees this as an additional support burden in  
hetrogenous networks, and may resist adaptation of the Macintosh platform.

It's up to Apple's Engineering team to design a solution which preserves  
and enhances the Macintosh experience, while removing the perceived  
barriers to using the Mac in hetrogenous networks.  

-- 
I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me.
mpaque@next.com		Official business only		NeXT Mail OK
mpaque@wco.com		Non-business or personal mail	NeXT mail OK

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 26 Feb 1997 12:50:09 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article , kluev@macsimum.gamma.ru (Michael Kluev) wrote:

> People, remember, that HFS maintains other useful information
> (called user or Finder info). I am talking about current scroll
> position for directories, icon position for items, etc.

The NEXTSTEP Workspace maintains this information in a user database,
as they are not things that should really be directly associated with the
files right in the filesystem -- they pertain to _visual representations_
of the files.

> Speaking about "... doesn't work well in multiuser environment".
> If you buy this argument (and I do to some extent), than you
> should buy the following: the field that holds "last access time"
> in the file information doesn't work well on read only media.
> (In fact it doesn't work at all on read only media.) Current
> (future?) Mac users do encounter "read only media" much often
> than "multiuser environment". Thus this field should be stripped.

No, that's silly.  Then it wouldn't exist for nonremovable media,
either.  With removable media, the field can either be ignored, or you
can use a different filesystem without that field.

The point is that it is a bad idea to store information about which
application with which to open a file directly in the filesystem with
the file, as different users will have different preferences.  However,
the creator of a file is an absolute and does not depend on the user, so
there is nothing intrinsically wrong with placing that information in
the filesystem, even with in multiuser environment.  What people are
really objecting to, and may not be expressing themselves clearly over,
is the restriction of opening files by creator, no matter what the
user's individual preference is.  I _don't_ want to open my JPEGs with
whatever app someone used to create them, I want to use my JPEG viewer.

> Traditional symbolic links don't work for Mac users. Mac users
> are creatures that like to drag things around as paper clips on
> their desk, screwing up paths in symbolic links.

It wouldn't be hard to modify the move operation so that if you moved a
file, it would leave a symbolic link to the new location in the old
location.  If you were so inclined.  I happen to not like HFS's
file-by-reference technique, I think that the filesystem has a namespace
precisely as a mechanism for identifying files.  The preferences of
others may differ.

> 1. What file/directory management API is there in the Next?
>    Is it path based? Is it like:
> "open("dir/subdir1/subdir2/subdir3/subdir4/file"?

Yes.

> 2. Is Next File system crash-safe? (Crash = turning power off here.)

No, thankfully.  Unix caches a lot of file information in memory and
gets much better effective I/O performance that way.  If power is
interrupted, it will fsck the disk at the next boot time and try to
recover things, but some information may be lost.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
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From: Gary Zhang 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Kaffe Compile Problem
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 11:59:59 -0500
Organization: Bankers Trust Company
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Has anyone successfully compiled Kaffe 0.8.1 on a 68K NeXT Station
running User 3.3/ Developer 3.2? I already compiled the latest "gcc" but
even with that I'm still getting an error during the build of Kaffe.
Specifically it says can not find file called "external_native.h". I
modified the make file and disabled the "NOSHARED_LIBRARY" (can't
remember the exact name) so the compiler no longer looks for that header
file. That fixed the problem but I later got tons of other error
messages! I'd really appreciate any help on this one. Thanks.

Oh, by the way, I downloaded a compiled version of Kaffe but it truns
out to be the Intel version. Does any one have a version for the 68K?
Thanks again.
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Date: 26 Feb 1997 19:14:44 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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Joseph Panico  wrote:
>  Explicit memory management (malloc,free,lack of gc,), non object
> structures (structs, unions, etc), pointers, name-space collisions.

But how much of those do you use if you are using OPENSTEP?
You have -retain/-release instead of GC, and there are arguments
either way as to which is better; I prefer true GC myself.  But
the rest isn't touched _too_ often.  And you're trading pure OO
for efficiency/speed in most cases.  If you just concentrate on
the OO side, though, you do stand a good chance of learning good
OO practices.

> Don,
> I'm not sure why Obj-C would be a better paragon of OOP. I would
> certainly agree that Obj-C does a number of things better than Java, but
> one could easily argue that there are a larger number of things that
> Java does better than Obj-C.

I think I feel this way because of the literature out there.  I you want to 
learn about Obj-C you pretty much have to read the NeXT book.  It teaches the 
OOP concepts in a good way, IMHO, and teaches you the benefits and uses of 
dynamism, so that you can use OOP _right_, right from the start.

On the other hand, nearly all the books I've seen on Java take a static 
approach--obviously written by people entrenched in C++ that don't understand 
dynamism.  The "examples" I've seen in the books--and I've read a LOT of them 
by know--for the most part are the crappiest examples of OOA/OOD that I've 
ever seen.  The small amount of literature on Obj-C puts these books to 
shame.

So, if you try to learn Java, you'll miss most of the beauty of the language 
because your "teacher" won't be qualified to do the job.  If you go the Obj-C 
route, you'll learn OO right since the only teachers out there (few though 
they may be) will do the job right.

We see the good in Java because we come from the dynamic point of 
view--people coming from C++ really miss half the beauty of that language 
because of a poor foundation.  A "newbie" coming in and reading the Java 
books out there will get the (inferior) C++ point of view.  Sure you can use 
the language as if it were static, but you lose half the elegance if you do.

If there are any actually good Java books out there, then perhaps it could do 
better to start a person off on the OO path than Obj-C.  The two languages 
have such similar semantics that which is better is probably shades of 
difference and opinion more than anything else.

I guess if you *really* want to get OO concepts down right, though, you 
should go with SmallTalk.  Going from there to Obj-C or Java shouldn't be 
hard at all, except for syntax differences, which can be learned quickly 
anyway.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 14:17:56 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 26-Feb-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
Unix: File S.. by TH Fanning@ra.anl.gov 
> > Not sure how this effects your point, but as an aside I do think
> > the "defaults database" of NeXTSTEP works better than having every
> > application have it's own preference file...
>  
> I completely disagree with this.  What if I try tons of
> software, each one adding to my "defaults database", but
> then I delete these apps from my system.  Wouldn't the
> database slowly grow over time?

Yes, it does.  After about 5 years of owning a NeXT, my defaults
database has roughly 1000 items in it.  The entries are comprised of
three elements: owner (ie, the application name), property, and value.

> How do I "clean" it out?  With separate files, I can just trash them.

There are GUI tools like DefaultsMgr which allow you to easily remove
all properties associated with a particular app.

Most NeXT users never notice or care that there are unused entries.  You
don't have to worry about cleaning it out if you don't want to.  There
isn't enough information in the defaults DB that it's significant.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Coty Rosenblath 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: access adaptor
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:00:28 -0500
Organization: Solutions by Design
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To: universit de La Rochelle <"\"yannick buisson\""@pobox.com>
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universit de La Rochelle wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Just a little question about access adaptor ..
> 
> With OpenStep, we have the possibility to make our applications running on NT.
> Does someone work on an access adaptor ?
> 
> Does someone have any informations about that ?
> 
> thanks for your answers ...
> 

I use the ODBC adaptor to connect to Access databases under NT with some
success.

Cheers,
--
Coty Rosenblath
Solutions by Design
Atlanta, GA

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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 15:34:30 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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wef@ct2.nai.net wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I am interested in knowing what the unbiased opinion it out there...
> I am considering pouring alot of my resources into a programming
> education and career.  In order to maximize the world of programming
> these days, one must weigh the difference between C++ and Java.
> Please choose you pick and tell me why you think it is the way to go.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Bill

As a student in computer science myself I would suggest that you learn
C++ first. I am not saying that C++ is better than Java (or, since you
have posted to a NeXT programming group, Objective-C) but that, as a
student, you will find that C++ is the language of choice for most
courses in colleges today. What it all comes down to, for me, is that
the school I attend requires that I learn C++ in order to get the
degree. Further, almost all universities and junior colleges offer
courses in C++ but very few offer courses in Java or Objective-C.
As a student you will find it very easy to enrol in a course on C++
while finding courses on the other languages will be much harder.

As a final note, once you have learned C++ you should have a pretty
reasonable grasp of C and Object-Oriented Programming (OOP) so that
picking up Java or Objective-C (which are both based on C syntax)
will be MUCH easier.

-Jeff Dutky
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 26 Feb 1997 21:46:37 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 59
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maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> In article , petrich@netcom.com (Loren
> Petrich) wrote:
> 
> >         Easier programming: the NeXT API makes it *very* easy to do GUI 
> > stuff; with the Interface Builder, one can attach GUI elements to various 
> > object methods -- for example, one can attach a button to calling some 
> > function or other by simply dragging and dropping.
> 
>   What exactly happens when you do this though?  Does it do something like
> put a function pointer into a field in the button object?  Or is there a
> layer of indirection between the two?

Control classes have two instance variables, "target" and "selector", which 
are being affected in this case.  The target is of type "id" and can point to 
any object.  The selector is of type "SEL" and can sort of be thought of as 
analogous to a function pointer--but that isn't quite what it is.  You can 
get a selector several ways; the most common is to use the compiler directive 
@selector like this:

SEL aSel = @selector(makeKeyAndOrderFront:);

Which sets it to the "makeKeyAndOrderFront:" method.  When the button is 
clicked, it uses the -perform:with: method to send a message to the target, 
like this:

[target perform:selector with:self];

Note that because of the runtime, the selector is NOT a function pointer 
because the function that will be called depends upon the class of the target 
of the message.

Of course, InterfaeBuilder is allowing, via the connection mechanism, the 
editing of the selector and target instance variables.  Because selectors are 
based on hashed unique strings within the runtime, it is possible to assign 
selectors to the button objects even if there is currently no object in the 
runtime that responds to that particular selector!  This is what allows you 
to short-circuit the compile process with InterfaceBuilder.

It also becomes incredibly useful when loading bundles, etc.  The button 
class doesn't have to know *anything* at all about the target in order to 
send the message, and you can configure it to send any sort of message 
whatsoever.  The only real way to approach this sort of ability in C++ is to 
either add your own runtime to it or use the Command pattern (which requires 
compilation of a special class for nearly every selector / target pair you 
plan to use).

By the way, while target/action is nice for some things, it has a lot of 
limitations, too.  MVC is much more general and IMHO is a better approach.  
Where Obj-C shines is in both simplifying and generalizing the "C" 
(controller) part of "MVC".  EOF is a great practical example of this.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:18:14 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article , petrich@netcom.com (Loren
Petrich) wrote:

>         Easier programming: the NeXT API makes it *very* easy to do GUI 
> stuff; with the Interface Builder, one can attach GUI elements to various 
> object methods -- for example, one can attach a button to calling some 
> function or other by simply dragging and dropping.

  What exactly happens when you do this though?  Does it do something like
put a function pointer into a field in the button object?  Or is there a
layer of indirection between the two?

Maury
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From: "zarf" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Yes Steve, I will have some Koolaid, thank you!
Date: 26 Feb 1997 21:31:24 GMT
Organization: zarfism
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So - what hurdles do I have to jump to be able to get the Rhapsody
developer releaser coming this summer? I realize you must join some Apple
developer program - but aren't there different levels - is it known who is
entitled to get their hands on the Rhapsody developer release?  And is that
an additional cost - or does the developer registration cover that?

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From: Eric_Noyau@next.com (Eric Noyau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: fetch and qualifier with EOF2.0 and OpenStep 4.0
Date: 26 Feb 1997 21:47:25 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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In article <5eubir$hok@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr> yannick buisson (universit  de  
La Rochelle) writes:
> 
> just a little question about fetch and qualifier with EOF2.0 !
> Can someone give me an example where i can find a qualifier and
> a fetch !!!
> 
/NextDeveloper/Examples/EnterpriseObjects

-- Eric
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 26 Feb 1997 15:32:01 -0700
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Don Yacktman  said:

>The only real way to approach this sort of ability in C++ is to 
>either add your own runtime to it or use the Command pattern (which
requires 
>compilation of a special class for nearly every selector / target pair you

>plan to use).

Where do you get this last?

The whole idea of a Command pattern would be to avoid needing a special
class. In fact, such patterns are used extensively in PowerPlant, via a
generic mix-in.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Windows: Tumor-causing, teeth-staining, smelly, puking habit.
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From: "Carl A. Carlson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Required reading for Mac programmer?
Date: 26 Feb 1997 15:12:03 -0700
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Hi:

I'm a Mac programmer.  My NeXT station with OpenStep is due any day.  I
won't be getting any hard copy documentation.  I understand there is
lots of online doc.  What should I read, and in what order should I read
it to get up to speed on using the operating system and programming in
OpenStep?  Any recommended books?

Thanks,
Carl Carlson
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From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Date: 26 Feb 1997 22:58:53 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
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In <33149E1A.6D4A@wam.umd.edu> "Jeffrey S. Dutky" wrote:
> ...
> As a final note, once you have learned C++ you should have a pretty
> reasonable grasp of C and Object-Oriented Programming (OOP) so that
> picking up Java or Objective-C (which are both based on C syntax)
> will be MUCH easier.
> 

I don't think so.

Go with Java is my advice. Much cleaner, a much better way to understand the 
foundation.

--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net
* NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy
* C++ is to C as lung cancer is to lung

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From: Ian Joyner 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 08:38:48 +1100
Organization: Unisys
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Charles William Swiger wrote:
> I don't see any point to discussing this further.

The first sensible thing you have said in a long time. The reasons are
though that you will never change your mind, you will keep
introducing irrelevancies, you just keep arguing round in
circles. You have brought internet exchanges to a new low.

My suggestion that OS interfaces should be re-evaluated so that the
OS was contracted to manage and provide resources, and rectify
problems with the said resources before just handing exceptions
back to applications, because this vastly simplifies application
development, and that Unix does not generally do this, but I know
a practical OS that does, was responded by you attacking me
of being biased, bigoted and stupid.

You then introduced many irrelevancies, like deadlock, showed you
did not really understand these. You confused producer/consumer
with RPC, introduced some very spurious mathematical induction,
then threw in non-determinacy, and continued your insults at a very 
personal level, persisted in raw contradition. You inserted your
own mistaken interpretation of my words and then saying my suggestions
were flawed is completely obnoxious. For example: "Your design
suggestion 
that the OS should always consult a human operator even when minor..."
you gratuitously introduced "always". If you read what I was suggesting
carefully, you would realise your interpretation was wrong, but
then you argue against me on the basis of your mistaken interpretation.

This has not been a pleasant internet exchange. But for all of it,
you have failed to show that my original insight was wrong.

End of thread.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joyner       | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are
Internet email:  |  for a kingdom, the gentler       | personal and are
i.joyner@acm.org |  gamester is the soonest winner"  | not Unisys
                 |       William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 18:36:21 -0500
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In article <5f2avt$fge$2@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote:

> Note that because of the runtime, the selector is NOT a function pointer 
> because the function that will be called depends upon the class of the target 
> of the message.

  I think my next question comes in at this point or close to it: where
does one wire in OSA to record these messages?  It appears easy enough for
OSA to send out events to the objects by maintaining a record of OSA
keywords (like "Window") and the object methods to call, I'm sure OpenStep
already has something like this for direct invocations in the programs
themselves.  But OSA also allows for the reverse, for applications to
capture these events back out where they can be looked at as a script in
any OSA scripting language (Perl or AppleScript for instance).  Is this
something the OpenStep system currently includes?

Maury
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 26 Feb 1997 23:09:50 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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"Lawson English"  wrote:
> Don Yacktman  said:
> >The only real way to approach this sort of ability in C++ is to 
> >either add your own runtime to it or use the Command pattern (which
> requires 
> >compilation of a special class for nearly every selector / target pair you
> 
> >plan to use).
> 
> Where do you get this last?
> 
> The whole idea of a Command pattern would be to avoid needing a special
> class. In fact, such patterns are used extensively in PowerPlant, via a
> generic mix-in.

When you're statically bound, you have to create a custom binding in code for 
each function you plan to call or else the linker will complain.  They way 
around that is with a runtime.  Most of the tools for C++ implement, to some 
degree, a primitive runtime.  Without a runtime, you simply don't get the 
same mix of simplicity and flexibility. 

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Required reading for Mac programmer?
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:28:52 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 26-Feb-97 Required
reading for Mac pr.. by "Carl A. Carlson"@primen 
> I'm a Mac programmer.  My NeXT station with OpenStep is due any day.  I
> won't be getting any hard copy documentation.  I understand there is
> lots of online doc.  What should I read, and in what order should I read
> it to get up to speed on using the operating system and programming in
> OpenStep?  Any recommended books?

The tool of choice is NeXT's Librarian.app.  It has a variety of default
bookshelves for various user types including developers and sysadmins. 
You'll probably want to read most of what's in the Concepts target
(don't bother with the DatabaseKit until later, though) and Foundation. 
After that, the Developer Release Notes are good to scan through, and
the User Interface guidelines might give you another perspective on how
to design good user interfaces that should combine with your knowledge
of the Mac style guidelines.

Run through the IB tutorials, take a look at the various examples in
/NextDeveloper/Examples, and use the General Reference target while
searching to see what various object classes are.  Definitely read the
docs for Object and NSObject.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: font@MCS.COM (Font)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Kaffe Compile Problem
Date: 26 Feb 1997 18:50:48 -0600
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Gary Zhang  writes:

>Has anyone successfully compiled Kaffe 0.8.1 on a 68K NeXT Station
>running User 3.3/ Developer 3.2? I already compiled the latest "gcc" but
>even with that I'm still getting an error during the build of Kaffe.
>Specifically it says can not find file called "external_native.h". I
>modified the make file and disabled the "NOSHARED_LIBRARY" (can't
>remember the exact name) so the compiler no longer looks for that header
>file. That fixed the problem but I later got tons of other error
>messages! I'd really appreciate any help on this one. Thanks.

>Oh, by the way, I downloaded a compiled version of Kaffe but it truns
>out to be the Intel version. Does any one have a version for the 68K?
>Thanks again.

An identical error message results from attempts to compile kaffe out
of the box on i386 as well.  Some discussion of this (with no
solutions) appeared in comp.sys.next.software recently with "Java" in
the subject line.  In sum, kaffe's NEXTSTEP support is broken, but
it's probably the case that the author doesn't have a machine to test
things out on.
-- 
font@mcs.net                              Wishes are like dishes.
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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 26 Feb 1997 14:56:42 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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Thomas (nouser@nohost.nodomain) wrote in article  

]On that note, do people know of any packages that interface
]Objective-C to COM/OLE/ActiveX?

 
  D'OLE comes with OPENSTEP 4.1
-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 26 Feb 1997 15:03:14 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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Nathan Urban (nurban@vt.edu) wrote in article <5f1bi1$105@sps1.phys.vt.edu> 

]In article , kluev@macsimum.gamma.ru (Michael Kluev) wrote:
]
]> 2. Is Next File system crash-safe? (Crash = turning power off here.)
]
]No, thankfully.

 I don't think "thankfully" is the appropriate word here.

]  Unix caches a lot of file information in memory and
]gets much better effective I/O performance that way.  If power is
]interrupted, it will fsck the disk at the next boot time and try to
]recover things, but some information may be lost.

 It is incorrect to state this as true for all flavours of UNIX
 filesystems.




-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Followup-To: comp.lang.objective-c
Date: 26 Feb 1997 20:33:16 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article <33149E1A.6D4A@wam.umd.edu>, dutky@wam.umd.edu wrote:

> As a final note, once you have learned C++ you should have a pretty
> reasonable grasp of C and Object-Oriented Programming (OOP) so that
> picking up Java or Objective-C (which are both based on C syntax)
> will be MUCH easier.

I disagree.  Learning C++ doesn't tend to give you a wonderful grasp
of OOP.  It just gives you a lot of bad habits.  Object-oriented design is
a lot cleaner and simpler in dynamic languages like Java and Objective-C.
Things like dynamic messaging, categories, protocols, forwarding; those
are the things that really make object-oriented design shine.  In C++
you spend lots of time worrying about virtual member functions and
templates and unnecessary junk like that.

My recommendation:  Learn Objective-C or Java (or Smalltalk) first, and
then try learning C++.  (Though as Don Yactkman has recently pointed out,
if you try to learn Java you'll probably pick up all the wrong practices
because the books tend to have a limited C++ viewpoint and do not show
half the power of the language.)  Then you'll see how many hoops you
have to jump through to get things done in the latter.

Followups to comp.lang.objective-c, as I don't really feel like waging a
religious war on this.  :)
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 26 Feb 97 17:57:54
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In-reply-to: ians@cam-ani.co.uk's message of Wed, 26 Feb 1997 16:50:03 GMT

In article ,
	ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) writes:
   In article <33145768.42D7@ra.anl.gov>,
	TH Fanning  writes:
   > Garance A Drosehn wrote:
   > > 
   > [...]
   > > Not sure how this effects your point, but as an aside I do
   > > think the "defaults database" of NeXTSTEP works better than
   > > having every application have it's own preference file...
   > 
   > I completely disagree with this.  What if I try tons of software,
   > each one adding to my "defaults database", but then I delete
   > these apps from my system.  Wouldn't the database slowly grow
   > over time?  How do I "clean" it out?  With separate files, I can
   > just trash them.

How can you guarantee that you found them all?

   In practise this isn't a problem, as the entries that go in the
   defaults database are small (larger amounts of data tend to get
   created in ~/Library). They can be deleted (or edited) using
   Defaults.app.

And don't forget the command-line utilities!  You can easily enough
write a little script to checkpoint the defaults database, or to
insert/remove defaults for an arbitrary set of apps or names.

Later,

--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Sender: news@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Mr. News)
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:31:36 GMT
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In article ,
Maury Markowitz  wrote:
>In article , petrich@netcom.com (Loren
>Petrich) wrote:
>
>>         Easier programming: the NeXT API makes it *very* easy to do GUI 
>> stuff; with the Interface Builder, one can attach GUI elements to various 
>> object methods -- for example, one can attach a button to calling some 
>> function or other by simply dragging and dropping.
>
>  What exactly happens when you do this though?  Does it do something like
>put a function pointer into a field in the button object?  Or is there a
>layer of indirection between the two?
>

  There's a layer of indirection--the Objective C runtime system.  Too long to
go through here, but you should be able for find sone juicy stuff on Deja News.

-- 
David Evans              (NeXTMail OK)              dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
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From: deniseh@nntp.best.com (Denise Howard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Dragging files onto app icon?
Date: 27 Feb 1997 02:56:58 GMT
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In pre-3.0 days if you wanted to be able to drage files onto your running
app's icon, you did something like this in your controller:

- appDidInit:sender 
{
	unsigned int wn;
	id s = [NXApp appSpeaker];
	
	NXConvertWinNumToGlobal([[NXApp appIcon] windowNum], &wn);
	[s setSendPort:NXPortFromName(NX_WORKSPACEREQUEST, NULL)];
	[s registerWindow:wn toPort:[[NXApp appListener] listenPort]];
	return self;
}

This is all considered obsolete now thanks to the dragging protocol that
was introduced in NS 3.0.  I'm trying to convert the above code to be
post-3.0 style, but it seems as if the app icon is a second-class window
which can't have a delegate!  Here's the code I have in my controller now: 

- appDidInit:sender;
{	
	Window* appIconWindow = [NXApp appIcon];

	[appIconWindow setDelegate:self];
	[appIconWindow registerForDraggedTypes:&NXFilenamePboardType
count:1];
	return self;
}

Does anybody know how to make this work?  I've also tried fiddling with
the View which is the appIconWindow's contentView, but you can't set a
delegate for a View.  When I run with the above, my app totally ignores
anything I drop onto it.

BTW, my protocol methods are fine.  I tested this by creating a separate
window and making my controller _its_ delegate; worked like a charm.

Apps like Edit allow dropping of files onto their icons so I know this is
possible.  But I don't have access to Edit's source as an example.  :-)

Denise

--
Denise Howard     | PROGRAM, tr. v., An activity similar to
Mountain View, CA | banging one's head against a wall, but
deniseh@best.com  | with fewer opportunities for reward.
NeXTMail welcome! |      http://www.best.com/~deniseh
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Required reading for Mac programmer?
Date: 27 Feb 1997 03:26:05 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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"Carl A. Carlson"  writes
> I'm a Mac programmer.  My NeXT station with OpenStep is due any day.  I
> won't be getting any hard copy documentation.  I understand there is
> lots of online doc.  What should I read, and in what order should I read
> it to get up to speed on using the operating system and programming in
> OpenStep?  Any recommended books?
If you have OPENSTEP 4.1 or later, check out the Developer Tutorial, in  
/NextLibrary/Documentation/NetDev/TasksAndConcepts/DeveloperTutorial. It's  
also available on the www.next.com webpage. 

The tutorial goes step-by-step through creating a simple OPENSTEP  
application. That's a great place to start.
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Sender: news@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Mr. News)
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 01:30:43 GMT
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In article ,
Charles William Swiger   wrote:
>
>Yes, it does.  After about 5 years of owning a NeXT, my defaults
>database has roughly 1000 items in it.  The entries are comprised of
>three elements: owner (ie, the application name), property, and value.
>

  Just for some concrete numbers, on my main account which has lived on this
machine for about 3.5 years:

gallifrey:/Users/dfevans> dread -l | wc
	 733    3082   27443
skonos:/Users/dfevans> ls -l .NeXT/defaults*
-rw-r--r--  1 dfevans      315 Sep 12 13:12 .NeXT/defaults.nibd
-r--r--r--  1 dfevans      138 Apr  3  1992 .NeXT/defaults3_0.wmd
-rw-r--r--  1 dfevans     2292 Feb 19 22:24 .NeXT/defaults3_1.wmd

So, I have 733 defaults entries and they take up less than 3K of disk space.
I'm not worried.  And I never have to look at this database--the applications
manage it themselves, although there are programs for mucking with it as others
have mentioned.

-- 
David Evans              (NeXTMail OK)              dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
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From: blob@ricochet.NOSPAM.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yes Steve, I will have some Koolaid, thank you!
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 19:29:16 -0800
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In article <01bc242c$6ae6c1c0$a67797cd@metnews.hip.cam.org>, "zarf"
 wrote:

> So - what hurdles do I have to jump to be able to get the Rhapsody
> developer releaser coming this summer? I realize you must join some Apple
> developer program - but aren't there different levels - is it known who is
> entitled to get their hands on the Rhapsody developer release?  And is that
> an additional cost - or does the developer registration cover that?

Apple hasn't released details, but I would strongly suspect that you'll be
getting a copy of Rhapsody DR0 at any developer support level.  For details
of what the various programs are, see .

Typically, seeding is covered by the cost of joining the developer program.

-- 
(Pointers to other Mac programming web sites at
)

To reply personally, remove the anti-spam "NOSPAM." from the email address
in the header.
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Required reading for Mac programmer?
Date: 27 Feb 1997 04:31:23 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 02/26/97, "Carl A. Carlson" wrote:
>Hi:
>
>I'm a Mac programmer.  My NeXT station with OpenStep is due any day.  I
>won't be getting any hard copy documentation.  I understand there is
>lots of online doc.  What should I read, and in what order should I read
>it to get up to speed on using the operating system and programming in
>OpenStep?  Any recommended books?
>

	If you are looking for books, check out 

http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books 

	citations for pretty much every OpenStep/NEXTSTEP book worth getting

	If you're looking for a ground-up in-a-nutshell book to start with, 
grab Designing Business Applications with OpenStep by Pete Clark and Nik 
Gervae.  Excellent book on many levels, covers everything (although not in 
as much depth as the NeXT docs) and even points out shortcomings where 
appropriate.


as well as http://www.next.com/OPENSTEP for their downloadable OpenStep 
docs..






-- 
Scott Anguish               DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS
sanguish@digifix.com        Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com

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From: alanf@izzy.net (Alan Frabutt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: IB: cannot open nib...
Date: 26 Feb 1997 23:45:26 -0500
Organization: Isthmus Corporation
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I'm hoping this is an easy one...
When I move my source (3.2 dev env) from one machine to another, 
I can't open the nib from IB.  The message panel gives me a useless
"cannot open" message; if I open the nib as a folder, and try to open
the sub-nib(!?) I get a more specific error indicating it can't load
a class.  I can duplicate this situation by trying to open an arbitrary
nib in a MiscKit example.  

Please cc: responses to alanf@izzy.net. 

TIA, 
Alan Frabutt
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From: alanf@izzy.net (Alan Frabutt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: MiscSubprocess question
Date: 26 Feb 1997 23:52:39 -0500
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Greetings ethereal composite mind. 
I'm trying to use MiscSubprocess (from MiscKit) to launch a shell script, 
and connect the stdin/out to text objects.  I'm apparently botching 
something... is there an example laying around somewhere I might use? 
Please cc: responses to alanf@izzy.net. 
Regards, 
Alan Frabutt
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From: goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu (Lloyd Goldwasser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Clipping path around a rotated image from an eps file
Date: 27 Feb 1997 00:33:37 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
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I'm trying to look at a rotated image from an eps file, and I'm
encountering some clipping path behavior that's puzzling (and
undesirable).

The following

      id epsImageRep=[topImage bestRepresentation];

    [self rotate:topAngleInDegrees];
    [epsImageRep draw];
    [self rotate:-topAngleInDegrees];

draws the image with the specified rotation, but, for some reason,
the clipping path doesn't seem to be aware of the rotation of this
image.  The upper wedge of the rotated image lops out of its view
onto the rest of its window, which isn't, um, attractive behavior.

Explicitly specifying a rectangular (horizontal) clipping path with
something like

    PSnewpath();
    PSmoveto(0.,0.);
    PSlineto(50.,0.);
    PSlineto(50.,20.);
    PSlineto(0.,20.);
    PSclosepath();
    PSclip();

either before or after rotating, doesn't change things at all.
PSviewclip() does very strange things that suggest that there's
a missing lockFocus -- although putting one in doesn't help.

This is with 3.2 on Black.

I presume I'm just being ignorant of some simple way to do
something that's not very esoteric -- but nothing further seems
to leap out of the documentation.

Anyone have any information or ideas?


Thanks in advance!

Lloyd Goldwasser
goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: 26 Feb 1997 20:53:39 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article <3314AD68.5B51@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote:

> Charles William Swiger wrote:

> > I don't see any point to discussing this further.

> The first sensible thing you have said in a long time. The reasons are
> though that you will never change your mind, you will keep
> introducing irrelevancies, you just keep arguing round in
> circles.

No, the main reason is that your original suggestion was moronic.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 26 Feb 1997 19:13:05 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) writes:

> David Herren writes
> > OPENSTEP is the abstracted API which runs on multiple OSs. OpenStep is
> > the operating system itself. Confusing, isn't it?
> 
> Apparently confusing enough for you to get that exactly wrong :-)
> 
> OPENSTEP (all caps) is Apple's name for their implementation of the  
> OpenStep specification. More specifically, Apple sells:
> 	OPENSTEP for Mach
> 	OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT
> Which both implement the OpenStep API on different operating systems.  
> OPENSTEP for Mach also includes our Mach operating system for NeXT  
> computers, Intel PC's, and Sparc workstations. 

Once upon a time, NeXT had a problem with capitalization.  They had
one product, which was spelled, at various times from various sources,
NeXTSTEP, NextStep, NeXTstep, Nextstep, NEXTSTEP, and I'm sure others
that I've missed.  This generated a small amount of confusion, but
luckily you always knew what people were talking about, since it was
all the same thing.

NeXT (Apple) appears to have learned from this mistake.  Now, they
have two possible capitalizations of OpenStep (OPENSTEP?), but they've
been very careful to make sure that they mean *different* things.
That should avoid the confusion nicely.

Oh, and just ignore that thumping sound.  It's just me banging my head
on the desk.

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: Stefano Pagiola 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:54:40 -0500
Organization: World Bank
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Travis Butler wrote:
> My suspicion (based, I admit, mainly on the attitudes of NeXT partisans in
> these threads) is that the average NeXTStep user is technically proficient
> or is willing to become so, has an interest in computers beyond what it
> takes to get his job done (or has a job where interest in computers is the
> primary factor ), does not mind (or even prefers) using the CLI for some
> operations, and often runs high-end networking and/or server operations.
> How many of the people who "generally have used NEXTSTEP _and_ Macs" and
> prefer NeXTStep fit this profile? 

Well, here's one counter-example.  I've used a NeXT as my primary computer
since 1991, and use a PowerBook on the road (which is quite a lot).  So I'm
quite familiar with both.  But: (i) I do not code; (ii) in 5 years, i've used
the Unix CLI in NeXTSTEP maybe a dozen times; (iii) I certainly do not run 
any high-end networking operation; in fact, my NeXT isn't even on the net.
Oh, and I'm not in a university (though I used to be :-).
I'm also pretty much completely ignorant of all the technical aspects of the
increasingly abstruse discussions of filesystems I find here.

Having said all that, and again speaking as someone who is a regular USER of
both NeXTSTEP and MacOS, I far prefer NeXTSTEP.  Not that it's perfect.  But 
if I had to pick one it would undoubtedly be NeXTSTEP.

Resource forks vs extensions?  I don't care how the OS keeps track of which
app to use when I double-click a file.  But as someone who transfers files across
multiple OSs all the time, I can testify that resource forks have proven an
incredible pain in the a**.  I cannot comment on whether resource forks are 
somehow technically superior (in the sense that Beta is supposed to be superior
to VHS) but in a world where only MacOS knows how to handle resource forks, they
are a royal pain.  I want to be able to drag a file off a PC floppy onto my
NeXT or Mac and be able to double-click on it.  On NeXTSTEP, I generally can, and 
if I can't, fixing it is a simple matter of adding the correct extension.  On
my Mac, I usually have to go to the app, open the file, and save it.  Which is
easier? 



-- 
Stefano Pagiola
850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA
All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer
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From: stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: SQL*Net and EOF
Date: 27 Feb 97 15:10:33 GMT
Organization: Lysis SA
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <3315a3e9.0@news.planet.ch>
References: <3308FEBA.538E@us.oracle.com>
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Cc: jlincoln@us.oracle.com

In <3308FEBA.538E@us.oracle.com> Jason Lincoln wrote:
> I am trying to connect my NeXTstation to a test Oracle database using 
> SQL*Net v2.   I have created a tnsnames.ora  file with a description of 
> the database I am trying to connect to.  When I try to connect in 
> EOModeler I get a ORA-6152 error.  Is there a HOWTO which explains the 
> steps necessary to accomplish the SQL*Net connect from EOF?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jason
> 

Hi,

I think you've got the same problem as we had. We resolved it like this (I 
don't remember who gave us the solution, thank you, whoever you are ;-))

In the Oracle login panel (or in the EOModel), enter (with Copy/Paste):

ServerID: 
(DESCRIPTION=(ADDRESS=(PROTOCOL=tcp)(HOST=myOracleServerName)(PORT=1521))(CONNECT_DATA=(SID=myOracleServerID)))

with your own parameters. Sounds strange but it works.

Stphane

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:12:09 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article , dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
(David Evans) wrote:

>   There's a layer of indirection--the Objective C runtime system.  Too long to
> go through here, but you should be able for find sone juicy stuff on Deja

   Cool.

Maury
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From: Mike Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 11:11:09 -0600
Organization: Alliance Benefit Group
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Stefano Pagiola wrote:
> I want to be able to drag a file off a PC floppy onto my
> NeXT or Mac and be able to double-click on it.  On NeXTSTEP, I generally can, and
> if I can't, fixing it is a simple matter of adding the correct extension.  On
> my Mac, I usually have to go to the app, open the file, and save it.  Which is
> easier?
> 
> --
> Stefano Pagiola
> 850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA
> All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
> those of my employer


On a Mac you can use PC Exchange to relate a PC Extension to a Mac
program.  Isn't this what you are doing on your NeXt machine?
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Dragging files onto app icon?
Date: 27 Feb 97 10:32:39
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In-reply-to: deniseh@nntp.best.com's message of 27 Feb 1997 02:56:58 GMT

In article <5f2t5q$2bd$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>,
	deniseh@nntp.best.com (Denise Howard) writes:
   This is all considered obsolete now thanks to the dragging protocol
   that was introduced in NS 3.0.  I'm trying to convert the above
   code to be post-3.0 style, but it seems as if the app icon is a
   second-class window which can't have a delegate!  Here's the code I
   have in my controller now:

Note that appIcon is pretty special - if launched from Workspace, it's
not really your window, if launched from a shell, it _is_ really your
window.  This doesn't really affect whether it has a delegate (or
shouldn't), but it _does_ affect whether you ever see events for it.

   Apps like Edit allow dropping of files onto their icons so I know
   this is possible.  But I don't have access to Edit's source as an
   example.  :-)

Nowadays you just provide the open-related stuff, when someone does a
Command-drop over your appIcon, it gets sent to
-appAcceptsAnotherFile:, -app:openFile:type: and related methods, as
if you double-clicked on it.  With the advantage that you don't have
to register as the app for that filetype.

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: van@crl.com (Van C. Bagnol)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Date: 27 Feb 1997 09:33:28 -0800
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Robert F Tobler (Robert F Tobler (rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at)) wrote:
: In <5ejud7$2pk@crl9.crl.com> Van C. Bagnol wrote:
: >    To have _multiple_ users _each_ with a different mapping preference for 
: >    individual files looks like it's a many-to-one correspondence. Seems 
: >    that can get unwieldy to manage, or at least one that begins to parallel
: >    the filesystem for _each user_. (Everyone gets a Desktop database). I 
: >    suppose they can inherit the global mapping and simply override.
: > 

: Is it really that unwiedly to manage?  You only need one database per user,
: that is managed by the Workspace/Finder and opened when the user logs in.
: It contains one entry for each file for which the user has overridden the
: default mapping according to filetype.  Since only a fraction of the files
: of a user need such an entry, and each entry will be on the order of less
: than 100 bytes (this is an estimate), the overhead for such a database
: is negligible.
:
: Under Nextstep the database already exists for per application+user
: preferences.  It should be trivial to add the mapping tha maps files
: to their opening application.

As I said, I suppose the user would inherit a default mapping from some
global (group?) setting and probably have an personal mapping to over-
ride it.

The potential problem is that the current NeXTSTEP user mapping
goes by filename extension ("type") and to expand this scheme to 
individual files will increase the mapping by an order of magnitude;
to expand out to a network or to the number of users on the network 
it increases by another order of magnitude, which increases the 
management of it all.

What I'm not sure happens is when files are moved around the filesystem
or network, or if the files or directories in the path to the file are
renamed.

Keeping a parallel structure of file entries synchronized with a 
filesystem is a lot more work than maintaining a list of just the 
files' types. Let alone keeping several such parallel structures.

Van
-- 
Van Bagnol / van@crl.com / Teatro ng Tanan / Windsurfing / Parachuting
Hawksbill Capital Management / (707) 575-7077 / (707) 575-8334 fax
"Parang lumalakad ako sa loob ng panaginip" 
"An Error is not a Mistake...until you refuse to correct it."
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: Re: C++ Syntax Highlighting
Message-ID: 
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nor@panoramix.uwyo.edu (norbert pirzkal) wrote:
> Is there a freeware editor for NeXTSTEP that supports syntax highlighting?
> 
> 					Thanks
> 

Hmm. not really.

Emacs might have a modul.
Eval.app has some highlightinh 
and ClassEditor.app (which reuses Evals text object) does the same in a very 
basic fashion.

Reportedly ProjectBuilder 4.2 (due to ship in the near future) will have 
syntax highlighting for C, ObjC, C++, and Java code.

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: Re: Return-key image in IB of OS4.1?
Message-ID: 
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Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 00:37:42 GMT
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altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) wrote:

> The demise of the Return key icon was evidence that severe "Windows Envy" 
had 
> taken over NeXT.  Other signs were the window setup of the OpenStep 4.0 pre 
> release GUI, where the miniaturize button was placed on the right, next to 
the 

Sorry...but this is wrong IMHO.
The "Return Sign" definitly had to leave with the advent of the keyboard UI 
control.
You can argue if keyboard UI is nice looking or what...but it definitly is 
very useful for a lot of problems. Having a keyboard UI is good (while I 
would have loved to see it being an option one could turn off/on)

The "return-sign" is bad from the UI design point of view once pressing 
"return" can cause a different button to get pressed. Which now is the case.


> close button, JUST LIKE WINDOWS95.  And NeXT had reportedly shifted 
internally 
> to running NT.   I hope that the Apple purchase has stanched this slide 
into 
> perversity and depravity within the NeXT team.  Maybe the return of Jobs 
will 
> presage the Return of the Return!
> --
> 

As far as the window goes the story is a little tricky. Moving the closer and 
minimizer together is a bad thing since you can accidently click the wrong 
one.
But keeping them where they are _and_ add the really great 
"drag-me-docu-icon" inside the titlebar causes some esthetical conflicts. It 
really looks a lot better if the doc icon is on the one side...and the 
buttons are on the other side.

Apple has the icon and text centered...but this does not work once your try 
to put in the whole text of the docuemnts path...which absically will 
left-align your docu icon again.

Hmm.can't have it all.

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: MiscSubprocess question
Date: 27 Feb 1997 20:19:29 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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alanf@izzy.net (Alan Frabutt) wrote:
> I'm trying to use MiscSubprocess (from MiscKit) to launch a shell script, 
> and connect the stdin/out to text objects.  I'm apparently botching 
> something... is there an example laying around somewhere I might use? 

Have you looked at the MiscShell source code?  It uses
MiscSubprocess underneath to implement its magic...

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Howard Berkey 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ Syntax Highlighting
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 14:28:28 -0800
Organization: Total Entertainment Network
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Message-ID: <33160A8C.2867@tenetwork.com>
References: <1997Feb24.144238.26278@roper.uwyo.edu> 
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Emacs does quite nicely with the hilit-19 module.

-H-
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From: Jason Lincoln 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: SQL*Net and EOF
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 04:01:28 +0000
Organization: Oracle Corp.
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Stephane Corthesy wrote:
> 
> In <3308FEBA.538E@us.oracle.com> Jason Lincoln wrote:
> > I am trying to connect my NeXTstation to a test Oracle database using
> > SQL*Net v2.   I have created a tnsnames.ora  file with a description of
> > the database I am trying to connect to.  When I try to connect in
> > EOModeler I get a ORA-6152 error.  Is there a HOWTO which explains the
> > steps necessary to accomplish the SQL*Net connect from EOF?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jason
> >
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I think you've got the same problem as we had. We resolved it like this (I
> don't remember who gave us the solution, thank you, whoever you are ;-))
> 
> In the Oracle login panel (or in the EOModel), enter (with Copy/Paste):
> 
> ServerID:
> (DESCRIPTION=(ADDRESS=(PROTOCOL=tcp)(HOST=myOracleServerName)(PORT=1521))(CONNECT_DATA=(SID=myOracleServerID)))
> 
> with your own parameters. Sounds strange but it works.
> 
> StphaneI got EOF to connect after I placed a good tnsnames.ora file into /etc.

Thanks,

Jason
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From: tkimpton@mail2.maned.com (Thomas R. Kimpton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:45:26 -0500
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Perhaps I've missed someone mentioning this, but: The only
place where the file *name* (which is how a file is referenced
in an open call) is associated with an inode, is the directory
structure(entry).  I think we could probably leave the inode
structure alone, and put any (reasonable) amount of information in
the directory table.  After all, a directory is *actually* a file
that contains directory entries.  Thus in the directory structure
you could point to any number of inodes:

(This is from Solaris 2.5, /usr/include/sys/dirent.h, ymmv :-)
-=-=-=-=-=- BEFORE -=-=-=-=-=-

struct dirent {
    ino_t       d_ino;      /* "inode number" of entry */
    off_t       d_off;      /* offset of disk directory entry */
    unsigned short  d_reclen;   /* length of this record */
    char        d_name[1];  /* name of file */
};

-=-=-=-=-=- AFTER -=-=-=-=-=-

#ifdef mac
#define NFORKS  2
#else
#error Hey you need to define how many forks to a file!
#endif

typedef struct {
    ino_t        d_ino;      /* "inode number" of this fork of the entry */
    ForkType     type;
    ForkCreator  creator;
} fileFork;

struct dirent {
    fileFork        d_forks[NFORKS];
    off_t           d_off;      /* offset of disk directory entry */
    unsigned short  d_reclen;   /* length of this record */
    char            d_name[1];  /* name of file */
};


-=-=-=-=-=- MORE COMMENTS :-) -=-=-=-=-=-

I thought it would be more flexible if you put the type/creator
information in the fileFork struct, than have only one type/creator
for the "file".  At the cost of more complexity, the d_forks could
be a pointer to an area after the name, and add a d_forkoffset
(to create the pointer), and a d_numforks, so you could have
any (reasonable) number of forks.

The current calls to manipulate files would use the 'DATA'
fork.  Additional calls could be added to access alternate
forks:

int forkopen(char *name, int oflag, int forkNum);
int forkTypeToID(char *name, ForkType type);
// returns the fork number of file name that has ForkType type :-)

If we allowed arbitrary numbers of forks per file:
int forkCreate(char *name, ForkType type,ForkCreator creator);

For forks that have formatted data (resource for example)
you would pass the refNum returned by forkopen to appropriate
calls...

Network exporting of this file system would involve some
translation for folks not using this type of file system,
but then, don't most machines' file systems require some
translation to get them into NFS? (I'm pretty sure that
BSD, SYSV4, SYSV<4, Linux and other unix variants all
use incompatible dirent structures, haven't seen them
in a long time, however.)

Anyway, did someone already talk about this and I missed it,
or, what do you think?

Tom.

-- 
This address may *not* be used for unsolicited commercial mailings.
Help stamp out SPAM in this thread's lifetime.
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From: campbejr@phu989.mms.sbphrd.com (John R. Campbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 28 Feb 1997 15:49:03 GMT
Organization: SmithKline Beecham Pharmaceuticals Research & Development
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On Thu, 27 Feb 1997 17:45:26 -0500, Thomas R. Kimpton  wrote:
>Perhaps I've missed someone mentioning this, but: The only
>place where the file *name* (which is how a file is referenced
>in an open call) is associated with an inode, is the directory
>structure(entry).  I think we could probably leave the inode
>structure alone, and put any (reasonable) amount of information in
>the directory table.  After all, a directory is *actually* a file
>that contains directory entries.

	Somewhat more logical than some of my thoughts about
	placing the information within the inode and providing
	a hidden file prefix.

	As long as the directory is *always* handled by the
	library routines so that access can be "invisible"
	this can work;  The main difficulty will be installing
	additional syscall()s to provide the directory entry
	manipulation (only the OS can manipulate the contents
	of a directory directly;  You *can* read the contents,
	but you ain't allowed to *write* into a directory).

>                                  Thus in the directory structure
>you could point to any number of inodes:
>
>(This is from Solaris 2.5, /usr/include/sys/dirent.h, ymmv :-)
>-=-=-=-=-=- BEFORE -=-=-=-=-=-
>
>struct dirent {
>    ino_t       d_ino;      /* "inode number" of entry */
>    off_t       d_off;      /* offset of disk directory entry */
>    unsigned short  d_reclen;   /* length of this record */
>    char        d_name[1];  /* name of file */
>};
>
>-=-=-=-=-=- AFTER -=-=-=-=-=-
>
>#ifdef mac
>#define NFORKS  2
>#else
>#error Hey you need to define how many forks to a file!
>#endif
>
>typedef struct {
>    ino_t        d_ino;      /* "inode number" of this fork of the entry */
>    ForkType     type;
>    ForkCreator  creator;
>} fileFork;
>
>struct dirent {
>    fileFork        d_forks[NFORKS];
>    off_t           d_off;      /* offset of disk directory entry */
>    unsigned short  d_reclen;   /* length of this record */
>    char            d_name[1];  /* name of file */
>};
>
>-=-=-=-=-=- MORE COMMENTS :-) -=-=-=-=-=-

	As I mentioned above, a set of calls will be needed to manipulate
	the directory entry since it can't be modified from user space.

	There are few calls existing now for such manipulation.

	Additionally, each of these additional inodes could contain
	the extra information directly-  as in the file type and
	creator information.

	Additionally, we need to provide an "open" for a fork so we
	can perform read/write on the information.  Right now an
	open() call navigates the directory tree and attaches the
	file to a process, opening up access to it's contents.  With
	the enhanced directory structure scheme, how do you select a
	fork?

	While this is incredibly clever, we need a new API (some
	of which can't be a simple layer but must drill down to
	the OS itself) to support this type of a file system.  The
	number of programs and libraries that need to be modified is
	awesome.

	Another downside is that the information isn't automatically
	linked when multiple names have been given to a file;  Each
	name for the same file will often have the fork information
	left behind.

	It'd also help if the number of forks available is variable,
	by the way...

>I thought it would be more flexible if you put the type/creator
>information in the fileFork struct, than have only one type/creator
>for the "file".  At the cost of more complexity, the d_forks could
>be a pointer to an area after the name, and add a d_forkoffset
>(to create the pointer), and a d_numforks, so you could have
>any (reasonable) number of forks.

	A reasonable approach;  The ability to have multiple resource
	forks opens up a new paradigm of file access.  In an object
	oriented system w/ inheritance, each fork would work it's
	way *up* the chain of inheritance until a function that can
	manipulate this file can be found.

>The current calls to manipulate files would use the 'DATA'
>fork.  Additional calls could be added to access alternate
>forks:
>
>int forkopen(char *name, int oflag, int forkNum);

		or	fkopen()

>int forkTypeToID(char *name, ForkType type);
>// returns the fork number of file name that has ForkType type :-)

	Why?

	This' be more logical as:

			fkstat()

	and what would be the return of the normal "stat" call.

	Additionally, this information must be replicated when
	a link() call is performed, unless we do it via fklink().

>If we allowed arbitrary numbers of forks per file:
>int forkCreate(char *name, ForkType type,ForkCreator creator);

		no,	fkcreat()
		or	fkappend()

	Now is the information within a fork an actual file,
	with it's own name?  If it has an inode, it will
	probably need to have it's own top-level file name...

>For forks that have formatted data (resource for example)
>you would pass the refNum returned by forkopen to appropriate
>calls...

	Once you have an fd it's associated to an open i-node;
	there's no need to be concerned with the name once this
	has been completed.  The name space exists to make the
	open() phase easier...

>Network exporting of this file system would involve some
>translation for folks not using this type of file system,
>but then, don't most machines' file systems require some
>translation to get them into NFS? (I'm pretty sure that
>BSD, SYSV4, SYSV<4, Linux and other unix variants all
>use incompatible dirent structures, haven't seen them
>in a long time, however.)

	Well, you can export a mounted MS-DOS filesystem from
	Linux but Linux (and FreeBSD, I am certain) will
	handle the translation to/from this structure for NFS
	(though you're not likely to like the limitations).

>Anyway, did someone already talk about this and I missed it,
>or, what do you think?

	While at first blush this is a hot idea, there are
	problems I'm having with it;  I've focussed on enhancing
	the i-node since it's the ultimate single point of maintenance
	for a file system;  Additions made at that level can be pretty
	well hidden from all but a few existing Unix utilities (though
	the criticism that we shouldn't have to open the file to see
	which icon needs to be displayed is a good one).

	Some have suggested adding type/creator codes and new
	timestamps (like a *real* creation time) directly to the
	inode would balloon the structure but would not require
	opening it (so you can suck in the information w/ a stat()
	call);  The cost would be a reduction in capacity for a
	file system and imposes limits on what can be expressed.

	Hmmmm...

	Maybe we can insert inode indices within an inode so it
	can be treated as a cross reference.  This moves the
	fork information down to the inode again, placing a single
	point of maintenance back at the actual file object and not
	within the namespace.

	While that's clunky, it certainly reduces overhead and drops
	the number of changes needed to the Unix system;  Extra ioctl()
	and fcntl() calls could handle the file out-of-band information.

	Heck, creators/etc can have inodes and some information
	in the /proc filesystem while the system is running...

	Hmmmm...

	We'd still have a limit to the number of forks a file could
	have, but it's a compromise that allows Apple-like files to
	coexist with the existing Unix utility suite-  Which is the
	primary thrust of this exercise...

-- 
 John R. Campbell, Speaker to Machines, Resident Heckler          soup@jtan.com
  "As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!"-me
   Disclaimer:	I'm just a consultant at the bottom of the food chain, so,
		if you're thinking I speak for anyone but myself, you must
		have more lawyers than sense.

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: MiscTableMatrix Palette !!
Date: 28 Feb 1997 16:15:47 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 30
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References: <5f6rl6$nb4@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle) wrote:
> I have the MiscKit 2.0.2 version.
> 
> I try to compile the few available palettes ....
> But i just manage to compile the MiscSwitchView palette !
> 
> Does someone manage to compile the MiscTabMatrix palette
> under OpenStep 4.1 ??
> When i try to compile MiscTabMatrix, i have an error like
> NEXT_ROOT = variable undefined !!!
>  
> If yes, i am interessting to get a good version 

So am I!  :-)

Seriously, I'm working on getting things working more smoothly,
but there is still a lot of work to do.  Help is certainly wanted
and welcome...

I do hope to be making some new releases soon, but please remember
that the OPENSTEP stuff is, right now, pretty gamey and needs a
lot of work before it has the maturity of the NEXTSTEP kit.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: 28 Feb 1997 05:34:56 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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Ian Joyner  wrote:
> Charles William Swiger wrote:
> > I don't see any point to discussing this further.
> 
> The first sensible thing you have said in a long time.

It's interesting that you start out this way, and then go on with
another 27 lines of self-serving rubbish.  If there isn't any point
in discussing it further, then shut up.

> This has not been a pleasant internet exchange. But for all of
> it, you have failed to show that my original insight was wrong.

My guess is that you have failed to convince anyone other than
yourself that you have any insight, or that your comments were
right.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
ng.  I do think the defaults-database (in
NeXTSTEP) works better than having *every* application have it's
own preference file.  However, that does not mean that I think all
applications should have their "preferences" (loosely speaking) in
the defaults database.  Loosely speaking, one could consider the
list of usenet newsgroups you are in as a preference setting on
your newsreader.  However, I would not want a single application
dumping that much information into the defaults database.

If a single application has a lot of information to keep around,
then it's perfectly reasonable to create a separate file for that
info.  But for those applications which only have a few settings,
it's better (in my opinion) to have those few settings in the
default database than to have a preference file created to hold
100 bytes of info.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 28 Feb 1997 06:00:01 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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Stephen Peters  wrote:
> Once upon a time, NeXT had a problem with capitalization.  They
> had one product, which was spelled, at various times from various
> sources, NeXTSTEP, NextStep, NeXTstep, Nextstep, NEXTSTEP, and
> I'm sure others that I've missed.  This generated a small amount
> of confusion, but luckily you always knew what people were talking
> about, since it was all the same thing.

Actually, that's not true either.

Originally (meaning release 1.0), "NeXTstep" was the name given to
the code which was sold to IBM as a user-interface (etc) to add on
top of AIX.  Thus, NeXTstep was *originally* the set of API's &
stuff that we would now call OpenStep.  It explicitly did not
include the Mach OS, or the BSD layer & utilities that came with
NeXT hardware, because it was going to be put on top of AIX.

That IBM/AIX project fizzled out at the release of NeXTstep 2.0.

From that point until release 3.1 of NeXTSTEP, no one focused too
much on what the term meant, because whatever it was it was still
tied to NeXT hardware.  With release 3.1, NeXT had a product for
hardware that NeXT did not build.  That was called NeXTSTEP, but
now that explicitly *included* the MachOS and BSD-layer.

Then came the deal with Sun, which swirled around OpenStep (the
generic specification).  This defined an explicit set of API's,
and was explicitly divorced from a connection to any particular
operating system.  As I understand it, this isn't exactly the same
distinction made with the early NeXTstep product (for IBM), because
(I *think*) the earlier product was supposed to look & feel the
same at the user interface layer.  OpenStep does not define what
the user sees, just the API's a programmer would use to create a
program.

And indeed, NeXT itself came out with OPENSTEP for WindowsNT, which
caused something of a fuss in the NeXTSTEP community as applications
written with this looked more like Windows applications (to the
user), compared to NeXTSTEP applications.

Now with release 4.0 (or was it 4.1?), NeXT decided it didn't want
the name NEXTSTEP around at all, no matter what the capitalization,
so they called that product "OPENSTEP for MachOS".  Now, if you
compare that to the name "OPENSTEP for WindowsNT", you would think
this was a product for someone else's operating system.  However,
"OPENSTEP for MachOS" explicitly includes the MachOS from NeXT,
while "OPENSTEP for WindowsNT" explicitly excludes it (and excludes
WindowsNT, for that matter -- you buy WindowsNT from Microsoft and
get "OPENSTEP for WindowsNT" from NeXT as something to run on top
of a copy of WindowsNT that you already own).

People who are just joining this adventure now might think that
I'm making all of the above up just to be funny, but I'm reasonably
sure that I have all the facts straight there.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DEBUGGER INFO NEEDED
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:19:21 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 43
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 28-Feb-97 DEBUGGER INFO
NEEDED by amando@gcomm.com 
> I am a newbie in the nextstep programming enviroment and I need to learn
> a bit more about Next's GDB. The info offered by Next is very
> complicated for me, since I am just beginning. Could anybody please tell
> me where can I find more info or a book that explains with more detail
> GDB and the art of debugging programs? I will thank you very much all
> the info...

Well, there are two paths you can take towards learning how to use GDB,
depending on your needs and what you want to do.  If you want to do
things the NeXT way, and are dealing with NeXT-specific or
OPENSTEP-specific applications, you'll we working in a project managed
by ProjectBuilder.app.  This provides a nice GUI display of the project
and any errors encountered while compiling, and lets you easly run a
debuggable version.

This'll start up your project under GDB, and you can type 'view' to
bring up project source files in Edit.app.  There's a GUI control panel
which is available which will let you browse the data structures and
procedure call stack, let you single-step, set breakpoints, etc.  This
is pretty easy to understand and learn, but it hides some of what's
going on and doesn't really teach you how to use GDB by itself.  But it
might qualify as a good introduction to using GDB at a simpler level.

Alternatively, you can view the GDB Info documentation, which should be
available within the Emacs editor via 'M-x info m GDB'.  This will
provide a very different viewpoint on GDB, but it will also teach you
how to use it better.  It's also much easier to work with just GDB for
non-NEXTSTEP specific code since you don't have to convert a generic
Unix source code tree into a ProjectBuilder.app project before debugging
whatever it is.

(By the way, some of the above is a matter of opinion; add "IMHO's" when
needed.  :-)

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Return-key image in IB of OS4.1?
Date: 28 Feb 1997 06:09:07 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote:
> altenber@acpub.duke.edu (Lee Altenberg) wrote:
> > close button, JUST LIKE WINDOWS95.  And NeXT had reportedly
> > shifted internally to running NT.   I hope that the Apple
> > purchase has stanched this slide into perversity and depravity
> > within the NeXT team.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that they'll have a few
PowerMacs running Rhapsody, instead of sliding further into
WindowsNT.  Just a wild guess, of course.

> > Maybe the return of Jobs will presage the Return of the Return!
> > --

> As far as the window goes the story is a little tricky. Moving
> the closer and minimizer together is a bad thing since you can
> accidently click the wrong one.  But keeping them where they are
> _and_ add the really great "drag-me-docu-icon" inside the titlebar
> causes some esthetical conflicts. It really looks a lot better
> if the doc icon is on the one side...and the buttons are on the
> other side.
> 
> Apple has the icon and text centered...but this does not work
> once your try to put in the whole text of the docuemnts path...which
> basically will left-align your document icon again.
> 
> Hmm.can't have it all.

I'll agree with Tomi on this.  On the one hand I don't like moving
closer and minimizer to the same side, but I can see why it makes
sense once the document icon is added.  And I do think that the
document icon was worth adding.

My guess is that Rhapsody will look more like the MacOS than the
GUI initially planned for NeXTSTEP 4.0, even though I liked the
look of that new NeXTSTEP interface.  I could go with either one
myself, and I imagine it's to Apple's advantage to stick with the
look they were trotting out for Copland.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:11:09 -0600
From: dashlangan@hotmail.com
Subject: The Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.programming,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
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For the quickest, dirtiest Y2K solution check
out the following web site:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

Dash Langan

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From: deniseh@nntp.best.com (Denise Howard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.soft-sys.nextstep
Subject: Re: Q:Reporting tool
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Date: 28 Feb 1997 19:11:42 GMT
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Juergen Moellenhoff (jurgen@oic.de) wrote:

: Hi,

: I'm looking for reporting tools, but I don't know which report writers are  
: available for OPENSTEP 4.x/Mach and EOF? Can someone give me an 
: advice which tools are available (and usable)?

If you mean database reporting tools, check out CompleteAccess by Ocean
Software (info@oceansoft.com) or DaTASMITH by BLaCKSMITH
(info@blacksmith.com).  They are both outstanding.  I don't know what
their availability is for OPENSTEP (as opposed to NEXTSTEP), though.

Denise
--
Denise Howard     | PROGRAM, tr. v., An activity similar to
Mountain View, CA | banging one's head against a wall, but
deniseh@best.com  | with fewer opportunities for reward.
NeXTMail welcome! |      http://www.best.com/~deniseh
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From: tkimpton@mail2.maned.com (Thomas R. Kimpton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 19:31:07 -0500
Organization: Managing Editor, Inc.
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In article , soup@jtan.com
wrote:

[stuff deleted]
> >int forkopen(char *name, int oflag, int forkNum);
> 
>                 or      fkopen()
> 
> >int forkTypeToID(char *name, ForkType type);
> >// returns the fork number of file name that has ForkType type :-)
> 
>         Why?

I was thinking in terms of:

    int whichFork = forkTypeToIndex(name, 'RSRC');
    if(whichFork != kNoSuchFork)
        fd = forkopen(name, O_RDWR,whichFork);

> 
>         This' be more logical as:
> 
>                         fkstat()
> 
>         and what would be the return of the normal "stat" call.
> 
>         Additionally, this information must be replicated when
>         a link() call is performed, unless we do it via fklink().
> 

See below about links...

> >If we allowed arbitrary numbers of forks per file:
> >int forkCreate(char *name, ForkType type,ForkCreator creator);
> 
>                 no,     fkcreat()
>                 or      fkappend()
> 
>         Now is the information within a fork an actual file,
>         with it's own name?  If it has an inode, it will
>         probably need to have it's own top-level file name...
>

In unix file systems 1 file == 1 fork (inode), in this file system
1 file == n forks (inodes). There would be no "unadorned" inodes.
It has the same "name" as the 'DATA' fork, or the 'DBAS' fork, or
the ...

[stuff deleted]
> 
>         While at first blush this is a hot idea, there are
>         problems I'm having with it;  I've focussed on enhancing
>         the i-node since it's the ultimate single point of maintenance
>         for a file system;  Additions made at that level can be pretty
>         well hidden from all but a few existing Unix utilities (though
>         the criticism that we shouldn't have to open the file to see
>         which icon needs to be displayed is a good one).
> 

One thing that I didn't mention was:  with the addition of a define
to dirent.h (direct.h or whatever):
    #define d_ino d_forks[0].d_ino

you *should* be able to recompile the kernel, any utilities that
depend on dirent.h (direct.h or whatever), use the newly compiled
newfs to create new file systems, load the new kernel and utilities
and run.  Everything would ignore the superfluous fork information
until new syscalls were added and utilities were modified to
take advantage of multiple forks.  (Additional work would probably
be necessary to take advantage of arbitrary numbers of forks,
however.)  Any Linux gurus want to give this a try :-)?

>         Some have suggested adding type/creator codes and new
>         timestamps (like a *real* creation time) directly to the
>         inode would balloon the structure but would not require
>         opening it (so you can suck in the information w/ a stat()
>         call);  The cost would be a reduction in capacity for a
>         file system and imposes limits on what can be expressed.
> 

In unix, the inode contains (again, this is from Solaris 2.5)
3 timestamp fields ic_atime, ic_mtime, ic_ctime that are supposed
to be last access time (should be anything that accesses the inode,
whether for reading, writing, mode changing), modify time (anything
that changes the inode: writing, mode changing) and creation date.
Both mod and access times are settable, however, I don't believe
the creation date is (except via resetting the clock, copying the
file and removing the original :-).

>         Hmmmm...
> 
>         Maybe we can insert inode indices within an inode so it
>         can be treated as a cross reference.  This moves the
>         fork information down to the inode again, placing a single
>         point of maintenance back at the actual file object and not
>         within the namespace.
> 

Well with the inode refs coming from the directory structure, there's
no intrusion in the name space: you have the original calls that
access d_fork[0].d_ino in the open(name), and fkopen(name,forkIndex)
accessing d_fork[forkIndex].d_ino still using the *same* name.

A utility like cp (copies a file) wouldn't have to know anything
about the contents of the file, just iterate over the number of
forks to a file, and use ordinary read/write calls:

    numForks = GetNumForks(name);
    for(i=0,i < numForks, i++){
        forkType = getForkType(name,i);
        forkCreator = getForkCreator(name,i);
        fkCreate(name2,forkType,forkCreator);
        fd = fkopen(name,0_RDONLY,i);
        fd2 = fkopen(name2,0_WRONLY,i);
        copy(fd,fd2);
    }
    
    copy(fd,fd2)
    {
        while(read(fd,buf,&bufSize))
            write(fd2,buf,bufSize);
    }

>         While that's clunky, it certainly reduces overhead and drops
>         the number of changes needed to the Unix system;  Extra ioctl()
>         and fcntl() calls could handle the file out-of-band information.
> 
>         Heck, creators/etc can have inodes and some information
>         in the /proc filesystem while the system is running...
> 
>         Hmmmm...
> 
>         We'd still have a limit to the number of forks a file could
>         have, but it's a compromise that allows Apple-like files to
>         coexist with the existing Unix utility suite-  Which is the
>         primary thrust of this exercise...
> 
[stuff deleted]


Hard links would be a problem: they were created to allow a speed
up of file access by duplicating directory entries (that
contain the inode number, with only the name being changed)*, however,
because the mac allows you to delete the forks of a file you could
have inconsistent views of the file.  With a file == inode system,
when you remove a file you decrement the link count on the inode,
remove the inode if link count == 0, then remove the directory
entry.  With file == n forks, you could remove a fork from file1
(actually you'd decrement the link count on the inode of that
fork of the file) and remove it's inode reference from the directory
entry, and file2 (that was a hard link to file1) would still contain
that fork.  This *may* not be a bad thing, but, I suspect this was a
major reason why Apple only has Aliases (apple file structure analogous
to soft links).

* soft links are files that have the link bit set in the mode
bits, they contain the name of the file, at the time the soft
link was created. Thus accessing a soft linked file has an
extra layer of lookup to get to the file, though it has the
benefit that soft links can extend across file systems (volumes)
while hard links cannot.



I guess I just want to have the fork abstraction at a higher
level than inside the inode :-).

-- 
This address may *not* be used for unsolicited commercial mailings.
Help stamp out SPAM in this thread's lifetime.
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From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 1 Mar 1997 00:24:05 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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In  Thomas wrote:
> 
> On that note, do people know of any packages that interface
> Objective-C to COM/OLE/ActiveX?
> 
> Thomas.
> 

I'm not sure about COM and ActiveX, but NeXT did develop D'OLE, a
distributed OLE via PDO... so it does interface with Objective-C.

--
John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design
C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick.

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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 28 Feb 1997 20:16:41 -0500
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John Rudd (jrudd@cygnus.com) wrote in article <5f7sv5$4sa$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> 

]In  Thomas wrote:
]> 
]> On that note, do people know of any packages that interface
]> Objective-C to COM/OLE/ActiveX?
]> 
]> Thomas.
]> 
]
]I'm not sure about COM and ActiveX, 

 It does, according to the statement on the NeXT web site. Just
 search it for "ole"


]but NeXT did develop D'OLE, a
]distributed OLE via PDO... so it does interface with Objective-C.
-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 1 Mar 1997 05:46:28 GMT
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Another in the "nice interview" series; this one is with Gil Amelio
(Actually, the ones with Avie and Ellen were a little better IMHO).  Once
again, the Intel issue is raised, and I am further convinced that Rhapsody
will be a dual-hardware solution (only the blue box capability will be
missing from the Intel release).

Apple Of His Eye
By Eric Nee
March 01, 1997

http://www.upside.com/texis/columns/qa

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From: polyex@mail.netsrq.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 28 Feb 1997 16:31:00 GMT
Organization: Intelligence Network Online, Inc.
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In <5f5s91$14s@usenet.rpi.edu>, Garance A Drosehn  writes:
>Stephen Peters  wrote:
>> Once upon a time, NeXT had a problem with capitalization.  They
>> had one product, which was spelled, at various times from various
>> sources, NeXTSTEP, NextStep, NeXTstep, Nextstep, NEXTSTEP, and
>> I'm sure others that I've missed.  This generated a small amount
>> of confusion, but luckily you always knew what people were talking
>> about, since it was all the same thing.
>
>Actually, that's not true either.
>
>Originally (meaning release 1.0), "NeXTstep" was the name given to
>the code which was sold to IBM as a user-interface (etc) to add on
>top of AIX.  Thus, NeXTstep was *originally* the set of API's &

What you are saying about AIX is probably true, but I also remember
the NeXT interface was supposed to go on top of OS/2 instead
of Presentation Manager, I can remember Bill Gates saying
that OS/2 would be better with PM because NeXT did not support 
color at that time. 

================================================================================
Adam Hall
PolyEx Software
Makers of the Wordup Graphics Toolkit for OS/2
Come check out our code at http://www.netsrq.com/~polyex

"Remember when we first landed on this planet? It was a really beautiful garden"
                                       -Baron  (Rainbow Bridge- Maui 07/1970 AD)
================================================================================

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Original Subject: The Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
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From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Kaffe Compile Problem
Date: 1 Mar 1997 11:41:17 GMT
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
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On 26 Feb 1997 18:50:48 -0600, Font  wrote:
>An identical error message results from attempts to compile kaffe out
>of the box on i386 as well.  Some discussion of this (with no
>solutions) appeared in comp.sys.next.software recently with "Java" in
>the subject line.  In sum, kaffe's NEXTSTEP support is broken, but
>it's probably the case that the author doesn't have a machine to test
>things out on.

Nope. This wasn't a NEXTSTEP specific problem. The problem is just that 
the mentioned file, package/external_wrappers.h, is by accident 
missing from the distribution and this affects all ports without support 
for shared libraries.

BTW, the next release of kaffe should contain support for shared libs
with NEXTSTEP.

	Gregor


-- 
| Gregor Hoffleit                        Mathematisches Institut, Uni HD |
| flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de      INF 288, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany |
| (NeXTmail, MIME)                      (49)6221 54-5771    fax  54-8312 |
| PGP Key fingerprint = 23 8F B3 38 A3 39 A6 01  5B 99 91 D6 F2 AC CD C7 |
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 1 Mar 1997 20:30:38 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford 
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On 02/26/97, Travis Butler wrote:
> Many NeXT partisans keep speaking as if the MacOS isn't a valid OS in its
> own right, and any use of MacOS features or system design in Rhapsody
> constitutes a 'redesign' or 'crippling' of NeXTStep. This is REALLY
> beginning to irritate me. Well, let me give them a clue: while Apple is
> still vague on many technical details of Rhapsody, they have stated from
> the beginning that Rhapsody is going to be a *merger* of the best elements
> of MacOS and NeXTStep, not NeXTStep thinly papered over. NeXTStep is going
> to be redesigned to some degree, just as MacOS will be redesigned to some
> degree. Get used to it.
> 
I'm not sure where you get your ideas from...

I think most NeXT-users are keen to welcome augmentation of NEXTSTEP by input 
from AppLE, where (a) AppLE technology is better, and (b) it fits within the 
constraints of the timescale AppLE has outlined for delivery.

Re your assertion that Rhapsody is not going to be "NeXTStep thinly papered 
over", let us examine what we know about DR1: It will be based on NeXT's Mach 
kernel, will be OpenStep-compliant, using Display PostScript for the GUI and 
NetInfo for networking.  And it should have elements of the Mac GUI.  I'm not 
sure how different my definition of "thinly papered over" can be from yours, 
however at this stage DR1 fits my definition reasonably well...

This is *not* to say that I have a closed mind -- as I stated up front, I 
welcome the resources and expertise from AppLE that will lead to further 
redesign of NEXTSTEP (OPENSTEP OS), and look forward to the folding in of 
existing and future AppLE technologies which will make using my computer an 
even greater pleasure than it is now.

[...]

> While I'm trying to keep an open mind, I'm afraid the technical bent of the
> NeXT proponents may be blinding them to the issues of working with Joe
> Average User. I've spent years doing support for Joe Average User, and I'm
> afraid he'll balk at some of the things NeXTStep users take for granted;
>
There will always be some users for whom computers are a mystery, however 
evidence suggests that non-technical NeXT-users, ranging from young children, 
through secretaries, to grandmothers have no more, and maybe even fewer, 
problems using NEXTSTEP than they would using MacOS.  Remember that the NeXT 
was designed originally as an "Interpersonal computer"; 8 years on, with the 
advent of the Net, its pedigree is now beginning to show.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Clipping path around a rotated image from an eps file
Date: 1 Mar 1997 21:20:44 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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On 02/27/97, Lloyd Goldwasser wrote:
> I'm trying to look at a rotated image from an eps file, and I'm
> encountering some clipping path behavior that's puzzling (and
> undesirable).
> 
> The following
> 
>       id epsImageRep=[topImage bestRepresentation];
> 
>     [self rotate:topAngleInDegrees];
>     [epsImageRep draw];
>     [self rotate:-topAngleInDegrees];
> 
> draws the image with the specified rotation, but, for some reason,
> the clipping path doesn't seem to be aware of the rotation of this
> image.  The upper wedge of the rotated image lops out of its view
> onto the rest of its window, which isn't, um, attractive behavior.
> 
I'm afraid I don't quite understand your problem, so I may be way off here;

is there any reason that the View should know in advance that its coordinate 
system will be changed so that it should allow "extra space"...

Have any of the View's superclasses been sent a setClipping:NO message?

Best wishes,

mmalc.




-- 

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From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 1 Mar 1997 21:47:03 GMT
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In article <01bc25fa$c628b6e0$5c2168cf@test1>
"L. Todd Heberlein"  writes:

> Another in the "nice interview" series; this one is with Gil Amelio
> (Actually, the ones with Avie and Ellen were a little better IMHO).  Once
> again, the Intel issue is raised, and I am further convinced that Rhapsody
> will be a dual-hardware solution (only the blue box capability will be
> missing from the Intel release).
> 
> Apple Of His Eye
> By Eric Nee
> March 01, 1997
> 
> http://www.upside.com/texis/columns/qa

What's with all these interviews, Apple?  Stop interviewing so much and
get back to work!  ;-)


--
Eric Bennett ( ericb@pobox.com ; http://www.pobox.com/~ericb )

I take much of what [Bill Gates] says with a grain of salt because Bill
would like to be ... the center of gravity for the whole world. He's
totally dedicated to his work and will do virtually anything to kill
the rest of us.
-Robert Allen, Chairman, AT&T
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From: gupta@tlctest.mt.att.com. (Arun Gupta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 1 Mar 1997 22:07:50 GMT
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>> Apple Of His Eye
>> By Eric Nee
>> March 01, 1997
>> 
>> http://www.upside.com/texis/columns/qa

Remember JdH gleefully (mis) quoting an article to claim that
Gil Amelio said that the MacOS is a mess.  Well, here is
another quote :

Amelio :

I do not think, as good as Windows 95 is, that it's as good as System 
7. There's only one real measure, and that is productivity. What 
you want out of an operating system is for it to be transparent. 
To the extent that the computer is not invisible, that you have to 
tend to its care and feeding, the management of it and so forth, 
that's a distraction from what you're trying to create. We come closer 
to the ideal model of making the computer more transparent than the 
other guy. Will we always have that advantage? I don't know. They've 
come a long way in the last decade. I don't think they're there yet. 
We have to challenge ourselves to try to keep putting some distance 
between us and them.

End quote

-arun gupta
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 22:58:21 GMT
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gupta@tlctest.mt.att.com. (Arun Gupta) said:

>
>Remember JdH gleefully (mis) quoting an article to claim that
>Gil Amelio said that the MacOS is a mess.  Well, here is
>another quote :
>
>Amelio :
>
>I do not think, as good as Windows 95 is, that it's as good as System 
>7. There's only one real measure, and that is productivity. What 
>you want out of an operating system is for it to be transparent. 
>To the extent that the computer is not invisible, that you have to 
>tend to its care and feeding, the management of it and so forth, 
>that's a distraction from what you're trying to create. We come closer 
>to the ideal model of making the computer more transparent than the 
>other guy. Will we always have that advantage? I don't know. They've 
>come a long way in the last decade. I don't think they're there yet. 
>We have to challenge ourselves to try to keep putting some distance 
>between us and them.
>
>End quote

Who do you think has spent more time actually using both System 7 and
Win95 for real work on a daily basis, Gil Amelio or John De Hoog?

Gil may know the MacOS is a mess, but he doesn't grasp the depth of
the mess. 
------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 1 Mar 1997 22:11:52 GMT
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L. Todd Heberlein  wrote in article

> Apple Of His Eye
> By Eric Nee
> March 01, 1997
> 
> http://www.upside.com/texis/columns/qa

Oops.  This was supposed to go to comp.sys.next.ADVOCACY, not .programmer. 
Mia Culpa.

Todd

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From: ericb@pobox.com (Eric Bennett)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 2 Mar 1997 00:38:08 GMT
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In article <3318b3b1.259720578@library.airnews.net>
dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) writes:

> Who do you think has spent more time actually using both System 7 and
> Win95 for real work on a daily basis, Gil Amelio or John De Hoog?
> 
> Gil may know the MacOS is a mess, but he doesn't grasp the depth of
> the mess. 

Win95 is a mess too, it's just messy in different ways.  It's not
necessarily true that I don't grasp the messiness of MacOS or that you
don't grasp the messiness off Win95; it could simply be that Win95's
flaws bug me more than MacOS's flaws and the reverse is true for you.

--
Eric Bennett ( ericb@pobox.com ; http://www.pobox.com/~ericb )

I take much of what [Bill Gates] says with a grain of salt because Bill
would like to be ... the center of gravity for the whole world. He's
totally dedicated to his work and will do virtually anything to kill
the rest of us.
-Robert Allen, Chairman, AT&T
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:55:20 GMT
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In <<33144F92.4095@online.disney.com>>, 
Joseph Panico  wrote:

>I have a commercial c++framework that handles and manipulates business
>objects. It passes and receives these objects in some type of container
>class that comes with the framework, let's call it Array. I want to
>customize the behaviour of that array with special types of sorting that
>are not supported out-of-the-box. I can't subclass Array, because it's
>already embedded in the framework and there are no hooks for telling the
>framework classes whiich container to use. Sooo... in c++ Ihave to
>perform the sorting external to the array. In other words, instead of
	[snip]

>In Obj-C, I can add methods to *existing* classes without subclassing.
>It's called Categories. I simply add the elementsSortedByAlpha method to
>the Array class, and then:

>[myArray elementsSortedByAlpha].


	It's also interesting that you choose a sort algorithm in your example
of where Obj-C is an improvement of C++.  The essence of a sort (worse
than O(n) running time, no UI, several operating specific to the
object being sorted (notably comparison & copying) ) would probably
mean it'll would take the nastiest hit from Obj-C's run-time
ineffeciencies.  OTOH, it's also a great example of the benefits of
C++'s templates.

	Array MyArray;

	sort(MyArray.start(), MyArray.end());

	"sort" is part of (soon-to-be) Standard C++ library, and is provided
as a template.  Which means that from just the lines I gave above, the
compile will build an sort function customized to the needs of MyArray
(which I've defined here as an array of Thingee's).  The cool thing
here is that if Thingee has on inline operator< (comparison function),
and operator= (copy function)  (most object have the first, many the
second), the generated sort function is remarkable effeicent since
it's build as if those functions were coded right there.  It has been
show to be up to 50% faster than C qsort() function, (which must make
a call through a function pointer for comparisons, and use memcpy()
for copies).  Since Obj-C's function calls are even more costly, the
difference here between C++ and Obj-C could probably be a full order
of magnitute.

       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 04:20:12 GMT
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In <<5f2avt$fge$2@news.xmission.com>>, 
don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:

>Of course, InterfaeBuilder is allowing, via the connection mechanism, the 
>editing of the selector and target instance variables.  Because selectors are 
>based on hashed unique strings within the runtime, it is possible to assign 
>selectors to the button objects even if there is currently no object in the 
>runtime that responds to that particular selector!  This is what allows you 
>to short-circuit the compile process with InterfaceBuilder.

	By "short-circuit the compile process" you mean "delay until run-time"
which mean instead of waiting just once, you have to wait for this
process to be done every time you run it.

>It also becomes incredibly useful when loading bundles, etc.  The button 
>class doesn't have to know *anything* at all about the target in order to 
>send the message, and you can configure it to send any sort of message 
>whatsoever.  The only real way to approach this sort of ability in C++ is to 
>either add your own runtime to it or use the Command pattern (which requires 
>compilation of a special class for nearly every selector / target pair you 
>plan to use).

	But that ability is rarely needed in real world applications.  In
almost all real cases, your button class would know, within a limited
range, what kinds of targets it will be sending messages to.  And that
can be handled in C++ with virtual functions through a common base
class.

       Truth,
       James

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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:53:19 -0800
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In article <5f5kn3$ndq@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:

> In <<33144F92.4095@online.disney.com>>, 
> Joseph Panico  wrote:
> >In Obj-C, I can add methods to *existing* classes without subclassing.
> >It's called Categories. I simply add the elementsSortedByAlpha method to
> >the Array class, and then:
> 
> >[myArray elementsSortedByAlpha].
> 
> 
>         It's also interesting that you choose a sort algorithm in your example
> of where Obj-C is an improvement of C++.  The essence of a sort (worse
> than O(n) running time, no UI, several operating specific to the
> object being sorted (notably comparison & copying) ) would probably
> mean it'll would take the nastiest hit from Obj-C's run-time
> ineffeciencies.  OTOH, it's also a great example of the benefits of
> C++'s templates.

You went off on a tangent to the original issue. ObjC is dynamic, C++ is
static. The algorithm is irrelavent. If you have a on object in ObjC that
doesn't implement a necessary method, you can easily add one with a
Category - even without source code. In C++ you are SOL.

> 
>         Array MyArray;
> 
>         sort(MyArray.start(), MyArray.end());
> 
>         "sort" is part of (soon-to-be) Standard C++ library, and is provided
> as a template.  Which means that from just the lines I gave above, the
> compile will build an sort function customized to the needs of MyArray

It will not be customized. It will create a copy of the sort function
which uses appropriately typed interfaces. No other optimization occurs.


> (which I've defined here as an array of Thingee's).  The cool thing
> here is that if Thingee has on inline operator< (comparison function),
> and operator= (copy function)  (most object have the first, many the
> second), the generated sort function is remarkable effeicent since

and if it doesn't? And you don't have the source code? Or if you aren't
sure it implements operator= and you just call it anyway (the compiler
will automatically generate a bitwise copy, hope your class didn't contain
any pointers!)

> it's build as if those functions were coded right there.  It has been
> show to be up to 50% faster than C qsort() function, (which must make
> a call through a function pointer for comparisons, and use memcpy()
> for copies).  Since Obj-C's function calls are even more costly, the
> difference here between C++ and Obj-C could probably be a full order
> of magnitute.

Code that truly is speed sensitive should not be written in either. If you
are willing to pay an abstraction penalty, ObjC (or more specifically a
dynamic runtime) is better. 

Not to mention the fact that since templates and template functions
generate an entire copy of the class or function each time you use it,
code bloat goes way up. So in a real life application liberal use of
templates will probably backfire due to cache overflow and excessive VM
paging.

I'm agnostic on the language issue, but templates are an evil abomination.

-Mark

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 05:16:09 GMT
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On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:55:20 GMT, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:
>
>	It's also interesting that you choose a sort algorithm in your example
>of where Obj-C is an improvement of C++
>

Interesting example of cluelessness. The use of sorting was 
*incidental* to the main point. 

>[discussion of speed differences omitted]

Let's make this clear. C++ can make method invocations 
faster. Compile-time binding buys you that one and NOBODY 
denies it (or, at the very least, nobody competent denies it).
So, in any serious discussion of language benefits, we can 
acknowledge that one and move on. 

Because, really, it's irrelevant.  Because it's *local* optimization.
And bad performance, in almost every piece of code I've ever seen,
has been an *achitectural* issue. 

And it's at the architectural level that Objective-C is almost 
obscenely beautiful. It's a language that supports programmers
over an application lifecycle.

In a recent paper (_Acyclic Visitor_), Robert Martin (editor of
C++ Report), said the following: 

	"When recompiles take too much time, developers begin to 
	take shortcuts. They may hack a change in the 'wrong' place,
	 rather than engineer a change in the right place; simply
	 because the 'right' place will force a huge recompilation."

[NB: he's arguing that dynamic_cast<>, a dynamic extension to C++,
is a good thing].

I would take his argument a step further. We need to to make
refactoring, restructuring, and extending classes as painless as
possible. Otherwise, over the course of an application's lifetime, 
large-scale crap is going to happen and --guess what-- all the local
optimizations in the world won't prevent the program from flat out
sucking. 

And, to quote RM again (he's not an idol of mine, but quoting the 
editor of C++ Report seems tactically sound)

	"Our goal is to build software that is easy to maintain. That
	is easily changeable. That does not cause lots of rework when 
	simple changes are made."

Rephrased: "Our goal is to support the programmer."

Does C++ support the programmer at all ? Of course not. It wasn't
a goal of Stroustrup's (cf: _The Design and Evolution of C++_, section
1.1 and chapter 2) and it hasn't been a major concern of the ANSI
committee. 

Objective-C, while far from perfect, makes for much more habitable 
code. 


Cheers,

Andy
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ or JAVA which is best???
Date: 2 Mar 1997 10:50:21 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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On 02/26/97, "Jeffrey S. Dutky" wrote:
> As a student in computer science myself I would suggest that you learn
> C++ first. I am not saying that C++ is better than Java (or, since you
> have posted to a NeXT programming group, Objective-C) but that, as a
> student, you will find that C++ is the language of choice for most
> courses in colleges today. 
>
I think you'll find that many colleges and Universities are now seriously 
evaluating Java as an alternative to C as a teaching language -- C is 
particularly poor as a first language as it does little or nothing to 
encourage good programming style, and has a number of "complications" which 
tend to confuse newcomers (pointers...).

> What it all comes down to, for me, is that
> the school I attend requires that I learn C++ in order to get the
> degree.
>
A shame, really, that most schools seem to be swayed by market forces -- as I 
suggested above, C/C++ really is an unpleasant way to introduce students to 
programming; there is a good argument that schools should use the best 
language available to teach relevant aspects of computer science which will 
stand them in good stead whatever environment they use thereafter.

> Further, almost all universities and junior colleges offer
> courses in C++ but very few offer courses in Java or Objective-C.
> As a student you will find it very easy to enrol in a course on C++
> while finding courses on the other languages will be much harder.
> 
This is *not* an argument for not trying -- this is a poor attitude, I'm 
afraid.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 2 Mar 1997 10:53:44 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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On 03/01/97, John De Hoog wrote:
> Who do you think has spent more time actually using both System 7 and
> Win95 for real work on a daily basis, Gil Amelio or John De Hoog?
> 
Umm, who cares?

> Gil may know the MacOS is a mess, but he doesn't grasp the depth of
> the mess. 
>
I think he does -- that's why he took the extreme measure of buying NeXT.  
Which leapfrogs the competition.  Unless you 'd like to argue that Win95 or 
WinNT are better than OpenStep/Mach?!

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 11:41:35 GMT
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mmalcolm crawford  said:

>On 03/01/97, John De Hoog wrote:
>> Who do you think has spent more time actually using both System 7 and
>> Win95 for real work on a daily basis, Gil Amelio or John De Hoog?
>> 
>Umm, who cares?
>
>> Gil may know the MacOS is a mess, but he doesn't grasp the depth of
>> the mess. 
>>
>I think he does -- that's why he took the extreme measure of buying NeXT.  
>Which leapfrogs the competition.  Unless you 'd like to argue that Win95 or 
>WinNT are better than OpenStep/Mach?!

Gil was not talking about OpenStep/Mach, but about the present Mac
system. I am not prepared to argue that Win95 is technically superior
to OpenStep, but they don't even serve the same audience. I will argue
that Win95 has tons more applications for the average end user (as
opposed to developers), and that WinNT not only has more application
support but is technically on a level that can compete with most
Unix-based systems out there, including NeXTStep. (Rhapsody doesn't
exist, so we'll have to wait until it does and until it has a full
stable of applications before we can talk about its merits.)

The original question was about productivity. It would be pretty hard
for anyone but a developer or a vertical-application user to be very
productive on today's NeXT system, in today's application context.
Some time ago I asked a question in the next.advocacy group about
everyday-use applications available for NeXTStep, and it turned out
there were precious few of the kind I have grown used to on Windows.
In particular, there were few applications geared to people using a
dial-up Internet account. It seems the typical NeXTStep user works in
an environment with a dedicated network connection. There are
apparently no offline Web browsers like Tierra Highlights, no good
offline news readers like Forte Agent, and no email clients of the
caliber of Becky! Internet Mail 1.20. The equivalent of Office 97 for
NeXT does not exist. 

You can talk all you want about technical superiority, but
productivity requires applications first of all. And you can talk all
you want about how easy it is to develop applications on NeXTStep, but
as far as I know, developers develop applications not for other
developers, but for end users. The more the better. So if end users
don't adopt a system, it doesn't grow. Period.

------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: Diana McPartlin 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:17:49 +0000
Organization: HKNet Co Ltd.
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Luc Dubois wrote:
> 
 
> This is still going to confuse the market (simple folks like current
> Macintosh users/developers, but especially Fortune Magazine editors,
> Wall Street Journal reporters...

I'm still confused. 

This is how I understand it so far:

OpenStep is a set of APIs (application programming interfaces) this
means it is a standard or set of specifications upon which OSs and
applications can be developed.

OPENSTEP is an implementation of the OpenStep standard.  We have
OPENSTEP for Mach and OPENSTEP for Windows NT. So OPENSTEP is a
framework that looks like an OS, but which is actually an implementation
of OpenStep API on top of other OSs (even though Mach isn't exactly an
OS but let's just say it is to avoid getting even more complicated). 

NeXTSTEP, NextStep, NEXTSTEP etc are all versions of the same thing and
I will hereafter refer to them all as NEXTSTEP.  

NEXTSTEP was orignally a set of APIs similar to OpenStep and which
preceded OpenStep. At first these APIs could be run on non-NeXT machines
(I don't understand if it was an OS at this point or not). After
NEXTSTEP 2.0 it was an OS as well as a set of APIs and it only ran on
NeXT computers until version 3.1. After 3.1 it was adapted to run on
Mach OS. At this point it wasn't the same as OPENSTEP for Mach (but I
have no idea what the difference was). Then NeXT decided to dump the
name NEXTSTEP altogether. NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP were then merged and
what would have been NEXTSTEP 4.0 - was named OPENSTEP 4.0 and was now
an OS that could run both on Next machines and on top of other OSs (esp
Windows NT and Mach). 

I know this isn't right probably because I'm confused about some basic
terms. Could someone plese explain it to me like I'm a Fortune Magazine
editor.


Diana
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 2 Mar 1997 10:39:05 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
> In <<5f2avt$fge$2@news.xmission.com>>, 
> don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
> 
> >Of course, InterfaeBuilder is allowing, via the connection 
> >mechanism, the editing of the selector and target instance
> >variables.  Because selectors are based on hashed unique
> >strings within the runtime, it is possible to assign selectors
> >to the button objects even if there is currently no object in 
> >the runtime that responds to that particular selector!  This
> >is what allows you to short-circuit the compile process with
> >InterfaceBuilder.
> 
> 	By "short-circuit the compile process" you mean "delay
> until run-time" which means instead of waiting just once, you
> have to wait for this process to be done every time you run it.

Um, the "wait" is on the order of microseconds...if not nanoseconds.  It 
isn't like you are recompiling or anything.  You're assigning two pointers, 
one for the target object and one for the message to send.  Even in C++ 
you're going to have to at least assign a pointer to the target.  If you use 
the command pattern, you have to instantiate an object that in Objective-C 
would be redundant.

And part of the point is that IB, rather than spitting out source files that 
need to be rebuilt (as do most visual environments) is simply assembling 
generic objects at runtime, no code compiling is involved at any point of the 
process.  The advantages to the developer--modification and removal of the 
compile-test-debug cycle--pay off big.  IMHO this is a very valuable trade.  
You really have to use it to understand just how big of a win this really is.

My main point, though, is that it is possible to construct messages on the 
fly, enabling you to construct interfaces that send messages which didn't 
exist when InterfaceBuilder was originally compiled.  No big deal for a code 
generator that is just spitting out strings into code templates, but it is a 
big deal for an object editor which is actually manipulating _live_ objects.  
When you load a palette into InterfaceBuilder, you're adding new, live, 
objects to the system, plus new possible messages.  Objective-C makes this 
easy to do.

And since programs built with IB are also in Objective-C, they can exhibit 
the same flexibility.  You could actually create a message and send it, based 
upon a method name typed in by a user--even if the method exists in a 
late-linked bundle loaded after the app started and never existed when the 
app was compiled.  Why you'd do this, I don't know, but I have seen it done.

I guess one example could be in building a "math interpreter".  The user 
types in "sin" and instead of having to parse and interpret the string, you 
send it to the runtime and ask it to perform the -sin: method.  Do you 
realize how _easy_ it makes it to write an interpreter?  To catch syntax 
errors, you just trap the exception of an unrecognized message and you're 
done.  And the beauty is that your interpreter could understand new commands 
that you loaded in a bundle containing an Objective-C category and you 
wouldn't have to modify the parser at all to deal with it...meaning that 
without any particular effort on the part of the parser's programmer, an 
extensible parser has been created.  And the person extending the parser 
doesn't need to understand much about how the parser works, and they don't 
have to register new commands or anything.  Build it, load it, and go.  Nice 
and easy.

But in a similar vein--this is a real application--I created a template 
merging technology which is dynamically extensible.  To make an extension, 
you compile a class with a specific name and link it into the program--at 
compile time, or later via a bundle.  You do NOT have to register it or 
anything--just write the class and link it in.  When the user uses the merge 
command, the Objective-C runtime will find the class and use it 
automatically.  For a developer using my engine, that automation means that 
it is easier to work with, which in turns means less code to write, which 
means shorter development cycles and fewer bugs.  Given what programmer time 
is worth these days, a few "small" wins like this and you've paid for the 
NeXT tools many times over in increased productivity.  (Note that this merge 
language interpreter, unlike the math one above, allows for commands with a 
variable syntax, so the Strategy pattern is being used in place of Command.)

> >It also becomes incredibly useful when loading bundles, etc.  The button 
> >class doesn't have to know *anything* at all about the target in order to 
> >send the message, and you can configure it to send any sort of message 
> >whatsoever.  The only real way to approach this sort of ability in C++ is 
> >to either add your own runtime to it or use the Command pattern (which
> >requires compilation of a special class for nearly every selector /
> >target pair you plan to use).

[Note:  usually your visual tool would do this automatically for you,
but the fact remains that you have the overhead of another class in
the program...an overhead that is better placed into a runtime, since
a runtime would actually be more efficient in this case.]

> 	But that ability is rarely needed in real world applications.

As long as they don't use a GUI, I agree.  With GUIs, flexibility is 
paramount.

It's like a guy who has been living in a strait jacket all his life and is 
getting along fine.  You tell him about how if he leaves the jacket he can 
move his arms and legs.  He says, "I'm doing fine, so why would I possibly 
want to do that?"  You and I know that moving our arms and legs is a freedom 
that we don't want to give up.  It allows us to do a lot of things the guy in 
the jacket can't do, and it lets us do a lot of things with much less fuss.  
But to someone who has NEVER experienced that freedom, it is nigh unto 
impossible to convince them that the freedom is worthwhile.

With the freedom comes dangers, too.  Every time you take a step, you could 
do something like step off a cliff and kill yourself.  Obviously, we don't 
make a habit of such practice, but the guy in the strait jacket can't 
understand why on earth anyone would want to risk falling off a cliff when 
they can stay safe inside the jacket.  Yet, to us, the danger is minor 
because we, by convention, don't walk off cliffs.

Well, when I am doing GUI programming--and I've done a lot of it--and I go 
from Objective-C to C++, I find that it is like forcing me to sit on my 
hands.  I can get by, but I'm not going to like the loss of freedom.  But it 
is difficult at best to explain why I feel that way because unless you have 
actually used Objective-C and IB enough, you don't have the necessary 
experience to understand what on earth I'm talking about.  It's like me 
trying to explain how salt tastes to someone who has never tasted it.

> In
> almost all real cases, your button class would know, within a limited
> range, what kinds of targets it will be sending messages to.  And that
> can be handled in C++ with virtual functions through a common base
> class.

But that means that if your target wants to be a target for multiple
objects, it must inherit multiple interfaces.  That is a gross
misuse of inheritance and leads to some of the most garbled class
"hierarchies" I've ever seen.

Also, the flexibility of target/action means that the message sent
to the target can change (ie, which method gets called is alterable).
Believe me, this flexibility can be used to very good effect.  One
example is simply that the interface internals are "self documenting".
When you inspect an InterfaceBuilder connection, there is typically
no question what it is doing.

An oversimplified example would be sending -cut: and -paste messages to 
different objects instead of a -genericPerform: message to both--in which 
case the target would have to look at the sender in order to determine what 
is supposed to be done.  If you use the command pattern, you are adding the 
instantiation of an extra object to provide exactly this flexibility.  The 
setup/overhad is _more_ than what it would be in Objective-C.  Enough more 
that it would probably allow Objective-C to be faster than C++ in this case.

Also, the "Objective-C way" makes it easier to decouple the interface from 
the underlying code since neither has to know anything special about the 
other.  You don't have to check to see which button sent the message to know 
what to do, for example.  (Sometimes Obj-C programmers do this, though.  Not 
the best design since it introduces extra coupling between the interface and 
the underlying objects, something which usually you want to avoid.)

I have yet to see anything for C++ or Java that even approaches what 
InterfaceBuilder can do.  In Java, at least, it would be possible to create 
something like IB.  In C++, you can only create a "Cargo Cult" emulation that 
is the "same" in appearance only, and not function.

(By the way, I believe C++ has its uses, but frankly, Objective-C and 
InterfaceBuilder have a HUGE advantage when it comes to interfaces and GUIs.  
C++ is better suited to tight computational engines, for example.  Mixing 
both languages can be a very effective way to build a system.  Like using 
hammers and screwdrivers--you can use a hammer to drive a screw, but the 
screwdriver gives a more elegant result.  In this case, C++ is the hammer, 
Objective-C the screwdriver, and GUIs are screws.  OK, crappy analogy, but 
you get the idea...)

Oh, and while we're at it, it should be noted that IB and WebObjects Builder 
are an interesting duo because you can use the same underlying application 
objects and then use each respective tool to generate interfaces, and you end 
up writing applications which can use the same object model in both the 
native and web version.  Sure, you can do it in C++ or other languages, but 
can it be done so easily?  I have yet to see a competiting technology that is 
both as powerful and as easy to use.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 2 Mar 1997 10:44:50 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
> >In Obj-C, I can add methods to *existing* classes without subclassing.
> >It's called Categories. I simply add the elementsSortedByAlpha method to
> >the Array class, and then:
> 
> >[myArray elementsSortedByAlpha].
> 
> 
> It's also interesting that you choose a sort algorithm in your example
> of where Obj-C is an improvement of C++.  The essence of a sort [...]
> would probably mean it'll would take the nastiest hit from Obj-C's
> run-time ineffeciencies.  [...].
> [...C++ sorting...] It has been
> show to be up to 50% faster than C qsort() function, (which must make
> a call through a function pointer for comparisons, and use memcpy()
> for copies).  Since Obj-C's function calls are even more costly, the
> difference here between C++ and Obj-C could probably be a full order
> of magnitute.

This would only be true if the Objective-C programmer were an idiot.
You use the runtime to attach the custom sort method to the object
and then you write your sorting algorithm in a way which bypasses
the runtime (trivial to do--search Dejanews for examples).  The only
time you have to take a runtime hit is the initial call to the sort
function, which is probably only called once.  Let the runtime do
the flexible binding and then optimize your internal code, and you
can actually do quite well.  At least as good as qsort, anyway...
and maybe better if you're clever.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Sun,  2 Mar 1997 11:37:12 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 2-Mar-97 Re: Nice
interview with Amelio by John De Hoog@experts.com 
> The original question was about productivity. It would be pretty hard
> for anyone but a developer or a vertical-application user to be very
> productive on today's NeXT system, in today's application context.

That's demonstrably untrue.  There are people who are perfectly happy
and productive using NEXTSTEP who are not developers and who are not
vertical-market customers running MCCA apps.

> Some time ago I asked a question in the next.advocacy group about
> everyday-use applications available for NeXTStep, and it turned out
> there were precious few of the kind I have grown used to on Windows.

You're right.  There are fewer applications available, but they tend to
work better and interoperate better than what you get with other systems.

> In particular, there were few applications geared to people using a
> dial-up Internet account. It seems the typical NeXTStep user works in
> an environment with a dedicated network connection.

That's a reasonable generalization-- NeXT's primary market involved
corperate clients with their own networks.  Dial-up users represent(ed)
a small portion of the total user population.

> There are apparently no offline Web browsers like Tierra Highlights,

An "offline Web browser" is an oxymoron.  It's also IMHO a really stupid
idea, and the lack of such is no loss.

However, if you really want to browse while your network connection is
down, you could set up a Harvest web cache and point your local web
browser to use that as it's proxy.  

> no offline news readers like Forte Agent, 

You can read news offline easily enough by setting up a local caching
newsserver.  There's a precompiled "PersonalINN" package on the NeXT FTP
archives which will let you read news offline.

> and no email clients of the caliber of Becky! Internet Mail 1.20.

Never heard of it.  Most people seem pretty happy with Mail.app, but
there are other GUI news/mail readers available, like Eloquent.  What
did you want to do with email that Mail.app is inadequate for?

> The equivalent of Office 97 for NeXT does not exist.

Sure it does.  Lighthouse offers an office suite and a whole range of
productivity applications-- Diagram, Concurrence, OmniWeb, OmniWrite,
Quantrix, WetPaint, TaskMaster, etc.  .

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 2 Mar 1997 10:38:07 -0700
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Don Yacktman  said:
[snipt]
>And part of the point is that IB, rather than spitting out source files
that 
>need to be rebuilt (as do most visual environments) is simply assembling 
>generic objects at runtime, no code compiling is involved at any point of
the 
>process.  The advantages to the developer--modification and removal of the

>compile-test-debug cycle--pay off big.  IMHO this is a very valuable
trade.  
>You really have to use it to understand just how big of a win this really
is.
>

TCL, MacApp and PowerPlant all have visual GUI applications/utilities that
produce template resources that contain no code, but merely allow the
respective OOP frameworks to parse those resources for instructions on what
GUI elements to load and what parameters to give them. While not as elegant
as IB's solution, you could tweak the GUI using the original template
builder, even if you had no source code, as long as you didn't delete
elements but merely substituted other elements with the same functionality
available.
[snipt]

>But that means that if your target wants to be a target for multiple
>objects, it must inherit multiple interfaces.  That is a gross
>misuse of inheritance and leads to some of the most garbled class
>"hierarchies" I've ever seen.
>

Does it? Greg Dow implemented both the TCL and PowerPlant frameworks
(version 1 and version 2, as it were). He's gotten recognition in _Design
Patterns_ for his work, and he doesn't have to do this.

For that matter, a "universal" message passing routine involves passing an
*object* to the target, and the object methods are evoked to handle the
details of what message is being passed.

>Also, the flexibility of target/action means that the message sent
>to the target can change (ie, which method gets called is alterable).
>Believe me, this flexibility can be used to very good effect.  One
>example is simply that the interface internals are "self documenting".
>When you inspect an InterfaceBuilder connection, there is typically
>no question what it is doing.
>

That's possible using both the "universal" messaging passing scheme and the
scheme used in PowerPlant. Again, neither is as easy as nore as efficient
as what Obj-C appears to be doing, but it is certainly doable using other
OOP languages, including C++.


---------------------------------------------------
"Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the 
original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we 
should all go home." -Me
---------------------------------------------------



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From: s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu (Weiyuan W Chin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 2 Mar 1997 12:31:51 -0500
Organization: Virginia Commonwealth University
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Stephen Peters  writes:

>MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) writes:
>> OPENSTEP (all caps) is Apple's name for their implementation of the  
>> OpenStep specification. More specifically, Apple sells:
>> 	OPENSTEP for Mach
>> 	OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT
>> Which both implement the OpenStep API on different operating systems.  
>> OPENSTEP for Mach also includes our Mach operating system for NeXT  
>> computers, Intel PC's, and Sparc workstations. 

>Once upon a time, NeXT had a problem with capitalization.  They had
>one product, which was spelled, at various times from various sources,
>NeXTSTEP, NextStep, NeXTstep, Nextstep, NEXTSTEP, and I'm sure others
>that I've missed.  This generated a small amount of confusion, but
>luckily you always knew what people were talking about, since it was
>all the same thing.

Various degrees of shouting...
Nextstep -> NextStep -> NeXTstep -> NeXTSTEP -> NEXTSTEP.

And you'd think that the industry would finally know what
NeXT was. :-)

Personally, I've always been partial to NeXTstep, which
is exactly what Rhapsody is to Mac users (the next step).

..Bill Chin
s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu


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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 15:01:59 -0500
Organization: Disney Online
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Mark Eaton wrote:

  In article <5f5kn3$ndq@lal.interserv.com>,
  JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
  (James M. Curran) wrote:

  > In <<33144F92.4095@online.disney.com>>,
  > Joseph Panico  wrote:
  > >In Obj-C, I can add methods to *existing* classes without
  subclassing.
  > >It's called Categories. I simply add the elementsSortedByAlpha
  method to
  > >the Array class, and then:
  >
  > >[myArray elementsSortedByAlpha].
  >
  >
  >         It's also interesting that you choose a sort algorithm in
  your example
  > of where Obj-C is an improvement of C++.  The essence of a sort
  (worse
  > than O(n) running time, no UI, several operating specific to the
  > object being sorted (notably comparison & copying) ) would
  probably
  > mean it'll would take the nastiest hit from Obj-C's run-time
  > ineffeciencies.  OTOH, it's also a great example of the benefits
  of
  > C++'s templates.

Apparently, choosing a sort method to illustrate my point was a little
unfortunate, as it allowed some people to focus on the wrong thing. The
point has nothing to do with implementation-- the point was *design*.

Incidentally, in Obj-C I could write the actual sort implementation in c
or even assembler, if I were worried about performance, so the idea that
you must take a hit using Obj-C is bogus.

The biggest problem with business applications (short of olap or
modelling) is definitely not performance. The biggest issue is
manageability, specifically managing complexity.  That's what OOPis all
about-- providing mechanisms for managing complexity. That's why design
is so important. Business programmers dont' spend most of their timke
optimizing loops. They spend most of their time trying to figure out
where the code for such-and-such is, or what the hell the person who
came before them was thinking. That's where the big hit comes from.

--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 2 Mar 1997 21:04:30 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
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In article ,
Charles William Swiger   wrote:
>An "offline Web browser" is an oxymoron.  It's also IMHO a really stupid
>idea, and the lack of such is no loss.

I believe this concept is carried over from BBS/Fidonet days where
people don't want to rack up connect time charges/limits imposed by
the phone company or the BBS service. Personally, I feel it's not very
effective--i.e. why do online stuff offline. There are definitely a
lot of people using offline browsers, readers, etc; but one may as
well subscribe to digest mailing lists instead.

In the past, I've tried these offline readers, and it just doesn't
feel right to me. Interaction isn't very good, especially if a thread
is very active. By the time one has uploaded his response, there
could be many others that make it irrelevant. So, there's more
potential for more wasted bandwidth. Great for lurkers, but like I
said, a digest mailing list is much more effective in this regard.
Offline apps will go by the wayside within 5 years. Heck, I don't
even use my serial ports anymore. Using a router/bridge at home will
be the way to go, if not already.


As for other apps, all I can say is with all the choices Windows has,
how many people exercise those choices? Well, there are many word
processors; but when it really comes down to it, people choose from
maybe 3 or 4. All other choices are like noise.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue
General Systems Division          Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team   1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 2 Mar 1997 22:34:23 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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"Lawson English"  wrote:
> TCL, MacApp and PowerPlant all have visual GUI applications/utilities that
> produce template resources that contain no code, but merely allow the
> respective OOP frameworks to parse those resources for instructions on what
> GUI elements to load and what parameters to give them. While not as elegant
> as IB's solution, you could tweak the GUI using the original template
> builder, even if you had no source code, as long as you didn't delete
> elements but merely substituted other elements with the same functionality
> available.
> [snipt]

Point being that IB is still more flexible in that you can add and
delete components at will as well as modify them.  I'm not trying
to tear down these other tools--they are good for what they do--but
IB is an improvement.  I think it is interesting to realize that
all these tools are newer than IB and yet they still aren't quite
as powerful.  That's a tribute to OBjective-C because the people
writing these new tools are very clever.  And they've done some
things very well--there's a few lessons that IMHO NeXT could learn
to improve IB.  IB isn't perfect, you know.  :-)

> >But that means that if your target wants to be a target for multiple
> >objects, it must inherit multiple interfaces.  That is a gross
> >misuse of inheritance and leads to some of the most garbled class
> >"hierarchies" I've ever seen.
> 
> Does it? Greg Dow implemented both the TCL and PowerPlant frameworks
> (version 1 and version 2, as it were). He's gotten recognition in _Design
> Patterns_ for his work, and he doesn't have to do this.
> 
> For that matter, a "universal" message passing routine involves passing an
> *object* to the target, and the object methods are evoked to handle the
> details of what message is being passed.

The trouble is that you have that extra object.  I understand
what they are doing.  While clever, I don't find it to be the
most elegant solution to the problem.

> That's possible using both the "universal" messaging passing scheme and the
> scheme used in PowerPlant. Again, neither is as easy as nore as efficient
> as what Obj-C appears to be doing, but it is certainly doable using other
> OOP languages, including C++.

Sure--they're both Turing complete, so you can do anything in
either one.  The question is which one is more convenient to
use as a developer?  I've found that to do GUIs in C++ you have
to build up extra code to simulate the runtime built into Obj-C,
so there's extra work and complexity.  Which is why I still hold
that C++ is NOT the right tool to use for building GUIs.  Just
like I don't think Objective-C is currently the best tool for
building tight computational cores (3D rendering, complex math,
etc. all do better written in C++, from what I've seen), due to
overhead constraints.  In a GUI the convenience vs. overhead
swings hard toward favoring Objective-C, especially when a tool
like InterfaceBuilder is available.  A good developer will look
for the strengths in the tools available and apply the right
tool for each job--and which one is "right" whill change
depending upon the task at hand (as well as the developer's
experience, oopinion, and comfort level with the tools).

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Ian Joyner 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 09:18:43 +1000
Organization: Unisys
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Nathan Urban wrote:

> No, the main reason is that your original suggestion was moronic.

Let's be scientific about this: that is see if the theory makes sense,
and then if observations done in experiments support the theory.
(Order of presentation is from more general to more specific).

1) OBSERVATIONS: are based on a real OS - it works!

2) Applications programming and maintenance is greatly simplified, reducing
cost, the whole point of software engineering research.

3) OBSERVATION: operations interface is consistent making operations
considerably easier. Operators know what to do, even if they are not
familiar with an application. Another observation is that in
fact you need less operators to run these systems. Well running systems
are coded and tested for a minimum of operator intervention.

4) DEADLOCK: THEORY: Definition of deadlock from Tanenbaum "Modern
Operating Systems" Prentice Hall 1992: "A set of processes is
deadlocked if each process in the set is waiting for an event
that only another process in the set can cause."

Further both Tanenbaum and Lister and Eager in "Fundamentals of
Operating Systems" Macmillan Press 1993 quote Coffman, Elphick and
Shoshani "System Deadlocks" Computing Surveys vol 3 June 1971,
which showed (in the words of Tanenbaum):

"Four conditions must hold for there to be a deadlock:

1. Mutual exclusion condition. Each resource is either currently 
assigned to exactly one process or is available.

2. Hold and wait condition. Processes currently holding resources
granted earlier can request new resources.

3. No preemption condition. Resources previously granted cannot be
forcibly taken away from a process. They must be explicitly released
by the process holding them.

4. Circular wait condition. There must be a circular chain of two or
more processes each of which is waiting for a resource held by
the next member of the chain.

All of these conditions must be present for a deadlock to occur.
If one of them is absent, no deadlock is possible."

THEORY: Number 4 cannot occur, as there is no circular wait condition
that can occur in what I suggested.

OBSERVATION: The real systems that have this feature do not deadlock
on these conditions.

THEORY: From Tanenbaum's first definition that the processes must
be in a set mutually waiting on events from other processes in the
set, the process controlling the resource cannot be in the set
of application processes, as it is at the system level, not the 
application level. Hence deadlock is in fact LESS likely!

OBSERVATION: The real systems that have this feature do not deadlock
on these conditions.

THEORY: Deadlock is only possible because of concurrency.

5) CONCURRENCY: THEORY: processes can run until some resource they
depend on is not available because it is locked, eg., being produced
by another process. In general, it is undesirable for concurrent
operations to be non-deterministic.

OBSERVATION: On observed systems, processes waiting on coarse grained
system level resources such as files, memory, etc., enter the "Waiting
Entries" list. This is managed by the OS process scheduler. The
process scheduler will move processes from the waiting entries
list to the ready queue when the waited on resource becomes available,
without operator intervention. For the resource to become available
might require operator intervention, but it could also be automatic from
some other process. As in any automatic system, potential for deadlock
exists, so processes must be carefully coded to not form dependency
cycles, but only dependency trees. However, this can occur in any system
and is independent of the original suggestion, where management of the 
resources is moved out of the application process set. Hence, deadlock
is less likely, where the system is partitioned into levels, where
the lower levels (system levels) do not form cyclic dependencies
back on the higher levels (application levels).

This is coarse grained concurrency, but concurrency in general should
not be explicitly coded into applications.

6) RELIABILITY: THEORY: Reliability is the combination of correctness
and robustness.

7) CORRECTNESS: THEORY: "Correctness is the ability of software
products to exactly perform their tasks, as defined by the
requirements and the specification." Bertrand Meyer Object-Oriented
Software Construction (first edition) (2nd edition will be available
any time now.)

OBSERVATION: The larger and more complex an application is, the more
likely it is to fail the correctness criteria. Having applications
programmers code for a plethora of exceptions that they should not
have to worry about, because they belong to the environment,
increases the risk that failure will occur in the application. 
Applications programmers become focussed on system requirements, 
rather than problem requirements.

8) ROBUSTNESS: THEORY: "Robustness is the ability of software systems
to function even in abnormal conditions." Also OOSC 1st ed. In my
suggestion, abnormal conditions are filtered from applications
by the resource managers. This does not remove the possibility that
an application may opt to handle specific exceptions, subject of
course to security constraints. Hence systems are more likely to be
robust and furthermore secure.

OBSERVATION: The systems I observe have an excellent reputation
for robustness. Abnormal conditions that are in the purview of
a resource manager should be by default handled by that resource
manager. Having applications code for this level of robustness means 
that application programmers must have a deep understanding of all
exceptions that can occur in a system. Applications programmers may
be concerned with certain exceptions if they so desire. But having
to code around all exceptions greatly increases the complexity of
writing software systems.

As for concurrency, the amount of explicit coding that an application
programmer should need to do to ensure robustness should be minimised. 

CONSISTENCY: THEORY: Consistency provides users, operators and
programmers a uniform view of their environment. Consistency abstracts
away the complexity of systems. The benefits of
this are not having to cope with unfamiliarity of different
environments, contributing to the cost effectiveness and less
frustration for users, operators and programmers.

OBSERVATION: As far as the original suggestion goes, these systems
are very consistent (I could criticise them for other aspects 
of consistency, but this is not one of them).

CONCLUSION: Original suggestion is perfectly sensible.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joyner       | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are
Internet email:  |  for a kingdom, the gentler       | personal and are
i.joyner@acm.org |  gamester is the soonest winner"  | not Unisys
                 |       William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 23:48:36 GMT
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>Charles William Swiger    (Mt. Pleasant?) wrote:
>>An "offline Web browser" is an oxymoron.  It's also IMHO a really stupid
>>idea, and the lack of such is no loss.

Then klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) said:
>
>I believe this concept is carried over from BBS/Fidonet days where
>people don't want to rack up connect time charges/limits imposed by
>the phone company or the BBS service. Personally, I feel it's not very
>effective--i.e. why do online stuff offline. There are definitely a
>lot of people using offline browsers, readers, etc; but one may as
>well subscribe to digest mailing lists instead.
>
>In the past, I've tried these offline readers, and it just doesn't
>feel right to me. Interaction isn't very good, especially if a thread
>is very active. By the time one has uploaded his response, there
>could be many others that make it irrelevant. So, there's more
>potential for more wasted bandwidth. Great for lurkers, but like I
>said, a digest mailing list is much more effective in this regard.
>Offline apps will go by the wayside within 5 years. Heck, I don't
>even use my serial ports anymore. Using a router/bridge at home will
>be the way to go, if not already.

I disagree with the above points of view. Here are some reasons, which
I hope you'll consider.

In May, I expect to get a dedicated Internet connection to my home.
Right now, however, I pay $400/month in phone bills for dialup
service, since all service in Japan is metered. Even with a dedicated
connection, however, I expect to continue using offline browsers like
Tierra Highlights and offline readers like Agent. Why? Let me explain,
since these concepts seem so foreign to NeXTStep users.

Tierra Highlights is used to monitor lots of Web sites at regular
intervals (set separately for each site), and to highlight any changes
at those sites since the last time you looked at them. Even with a
dedicated connection, this is still a very systematic and efficient
way to keep track of the latest developments. Right now I have over 50
sites being monitored. They are arranged into "topics," such as News,
Business, Computers, and smaller topics devoted to single sites such
as Upside, so I can check on various pages in detail. A scheduler
dials up, updates and marks the sites, then disconnects. Later I can
view the sites, with all changes marked, offline. With a dedicated
connection I will just turn off the scheduler and have the sites
monitored on their own schedules, so I can spot changes efficiently.
(A mark shows up on the icon when a site has been updated, and a check
mark appears at the topic heading and at the site title. The changed
text is color-coded.)

As for an offline newsreader -- I am responding to this at my office,
after first reading it at home. I have the entire thread on an MO
disk, along with archived threads from way back when. An offline
reader in the land of metered phone calls is essential; even with a
dedicated line, though, I like the ability to go back and check
earlier parts of a thread before responding, and to refer to other
threads as necessary. Not to mention the luxury of composing a
measured response, rather than jumping in like in a chat group.

The point is, however, this is an individual choice. You may choose a
different approach, but a strong computer platform -- like Windows --
gives each user a wide range of choices. As soon as someone says,
"Well, I don't need that feature," I know they are using an
under-supported platform. Now the question is, will Rhaspody be well
supported or under-supported? I guess that remains to be seen. It will
also make all the difference in the world when I decide whether to buy
it or go with Window NT 5 (light or enterprise). 
------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 00:02:00 GMT
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Charles William Swiger  said:

>> Some time ago I asked a question in the next.advocacy group about
>> everyday-use applications available for NeXTStep, and it turned out
>> there were precious few of the kind I have grown used to on Windows.
>
>You're right.  There are fewer applications available, but they tend to
>work better and interoperate better than what you get with other systems.

That's marvelously vague, so I guess we'll have to take your word for
it.

>> There are apparently no offline Web browsers like Tierra Highlights,
>
>An "offline Web browser" is an oxymoron.  It's also IMHO a really stupid
>idea, and the lack of such is no loss.

Not at all. You've just given the typical "when in a corner, say you
don't really care" response. See my reply to Ken Lui in this thread.

>> no offline news readers like Forte Agent, 
>
>You can read news offline easily enough by setting up a local caching
>newsserver.  There's a precompiled "PersonalINN" package on the NeXT FTP
>archives which will let you read news offline.

Like I said, no offline news readers like Forte Agent. 
>
>> and no email clients of the caliber of Becky! Internet Mail 1.20.
>
>Never heard of it.  Most people seem pretty happy with Mail.app, but
>there are other GUI news/mail readers available, like Eloquent.  What
>did you want to do with email that Mail.app is inadequate for?

Thanks for asking. Let me take advantage of my offline news reader to
quote from a couple of other threads in another group on this issue.

======= [quote]

Becky! Internet Mail is a multimedia mail client that supports sound
and html.

For example, I use it in place of Netscape Navigator to receive the
Netscape Inbox Direct mailings, which show up as html (Java images and
all) in the message pane.

Becky! is as close to the perfect email client as any I've tried,
including the highly touted ones like Eudora Pro. It supports multiple
email addresses, multiple users (with password protection), up to ten
visible signatures, filtering to multi-level folders, templates, all
the usual attachment encoding, clickable links, management of mail on
server without downloading, threaded viewing, spell-checking, and lots
more.

The latest version, Becky 1.20, is  available at:

http://www.bekkoame.or.jp/~carty/becky-e/beck120.zip
http://www.eis.or.jp/muse/rim-arts/becky-e/beck120.zip
http://www.tt.rim.or.jp/~satoko/becky-e/beck120.zip

====== [end of quote]

>> The equivalent of Office 97 for NeXT does not exist.
>
>Sure it does.  Lighthouse offers an office suite and a whole range of
>productivity applications-- Diagram, Concurrence, OmniWeb, OmniWrite,
>Quantrix, WetPaint, TaskMaster, etc.  .
>
Now let my turn your question around. What advantages does the
Lighthouse suite offer over Office 97?

------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 3 Mar 1997 00:36:29 GMT
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On Sat, 01 Mar 1997 19:53:19 -0800, Mark Eaton  wrote:
:Not to mention the fact that since templates and template functions
:generate an entire copy of the class or function each time you use it,
:code bloat goes way up. So in a real life application liberal use of
:templates will probably backfire due to cache overflow and excessive VM
:paging.

Although there are advantages for dynamic vs. static languages, attributing
the faults of C++ implementations to all static generic languages is
quite unfair.

Firstly, compilers for real languages can see whole programs at once,
and can finely generate only those implementations of those routines
for those particular generic parameters which will actually be called,
and in fact, elide multiple implementations into one "generalized" 
implementation of some routines to save code size, at some expense in
run-time.    In C++, all implementations for all routines for 
Generic for every T used anywhere, are typically emitted.  That really
sucks raw rhubarb. 

There can be some *advantages* to static type constraints in reducing
code size, as it is provably possible to eliminate various routines as
"will never be called".  In a fully dynamic system, this can't be
done, as the identity of 'method selectors' can change depending on run-time
data input and calculation.  Sure, if you make everything a huge lisp-style
dynamic library and don't include its size as being part of the program,
then dynamic programs can look very small.  This is somewhat misleading,
as I think you can see. 

Also, it's usually the case that only one specific implementation is
used at any particular call in the program, so cache issues will likely
be similar to dynamic and static langauges, and finally, few programs
page due to code size compared to data size.   (Excluding C++ template
bloat, which is NOT characteristic of all static langauges with
genericity).

:I'm agnostic on the language issue, but templates are an evil abomination.

No they're not, if you use Eiffel or Sather or other good OO languages.

:-Mark

:markeaton_@_mindspring_._com

-- 
Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD/
       Where do you want to go today? 
''Don't bother answering.  We're abducting you.''
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 2 Mar 1997 17:34:01 -0700
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Don Yacktman  said:

>In a GUI the convenience vs. overhead
>swings hard toward favoring Objective-C, especially when a tool
>like InterfaceBuilder is available.  A good developer will look
>for the strengths in the tools available and apply the right
>tool for each job--and which one is "right" whill change
>depending upon the task at hand (as well as the developer's
>experience, oopinion, and comfort level with the tools).

Sounds reasonable.

---------------------------------------------------
"Without a new GUI that is as innovative and ground-breaking as the 
original was in its time, the Macintosh will cease to matter, and we 
should all go home." -Me
---------------------------------------------------



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From: kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 3 Mar 1997 00:46:04 GMT
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On Sun, 02 Mar 1997 05:16:09 GMT, William Grosso  wrote:
:Let's make this clear. C++ can make method invocations 
:faster. Compile-time binding buys you that one and NOBODY 
:denies it (or, at the very least, nobody competent denies it).
:So, in any serious discussion of language benefits, we can 
:acknowledge that one and move on. 
:
:Because, really, it's irrelevant.  Because it's *local* optimization.
:And bad performance, in almost every piece of code I've ever seen,
:has been an *achitectural* issue.

Except sometimes when it isn't.  Compile-time binding does
make method invocations faster in some circumstance, but that
is not the real win.  

The real win being the increased opportunities for cascading
inlining of small methods, and subsequent elision of needless
code. 

This really is important for mathematical libraries. 

:And it's at the architectural level that Objective-C is almost 
:obscenely beautiful. It's a language that supports programmers
:over an application lifecycle.

'obscenely beautiful'??? Just sort of OK, in my opinion. 

:Does C++ support the programmer at all ? Of course not. It wasn't
:a goal of Stroustrup's (cf: _The Design and Evolution of C++_, section
:1.1 and chapter 2) and it hasn't been a major concern of the ANSI
:committee. 
:
:Objective-C, while far from perfect, makes for much more habitable 
:code. 

And what about something like Eiffel, perhaps substantially closer to
"perfect"?

ISE Eiffel has 'melting ice' dynamic recompilation tecnology, despite
being a statically type constrained OO language. 

:Cheers,
:
:Andy


-- 
Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD/
       Where do you want to go today? 
''Don't bother answering.  We're abducting you.''
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 16:52:59 -0800
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In article ,
kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu () wrote:

[snipped: interesting discussion of templates as used in static oo
languages other than C++]

> 
> :I'm agnostic on the language issue, but templates are an evil abomination.
> 
> No they're not, if you use Eiffel or Sather or other good OO languages.

Thanks for the info. I don't have a lot of experience with either of those
languages, so I'll take your word for it. But the person I was responding
to was advocating C++ over ObjC...

-Mark

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 3 Mar 1997 00:42:56 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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Diana McPartlin  writes
> I'm still confused. 
> 
> This is how I understand it so far:
> 
> OpenStep is a set of APIs (application programming interfaces) this
> means it is a standard or set of specifications upon which OSs and
> applications can be developed.

Right.

> OPENSTEP is an implementation of the OpenStep standard.  We have
> OPENSTEP for Mach and OPENSTEP for Windows NT. 

Right. These are Apple (formerly NeXT) product names.

> So OPENSTEP is a framework that looks like an OS, but which is actually 
> an implementation of OpenStep API on top of other OSs (even though Mach 
> isn't exactly an OS but let's just say it is to avoid getting even more 
> complicated). 

Not exactly. OPENSTEP is either: "The complete Mach/BSD operating system,  
and the OpenStep API libraries and runtime environment" or "A set of  
OpenStep libraries and runtime environment for Windows", depending on  
which product you're referring to. You get a lot more software with  
OPENSTEP for Mach than with OPENSTEP for Windows.
 
> NeXTSTEP, NextStep, NEXTSTEP etc are all versions of the same thing and
> I will hereafter refer to them all as NEXTSTEP.  
> 
> NEXTSTEP was orignally a set of APIs similar to OpenStep and which
> preceded OpenStep. At first these APIs could be run on non-NeXT machines
> (I don't understand if it was an OS at this point or not). After
> NEXTSTEP 2.0 it was an OS as well as a set of APIs and it only ran on
> NeXT computers until version 3.1. After 3.1 it was adapted to run on
> Mach OS.

Actually, NEXTSTEP was originally "all the software that comes with a NeXT  
computer". Ignoring the IBM "NextStep on AIX" deal (that product was never  
available to consumers), the only way to get NEXTSTEP before version 3.1  
was to run it on a NeXT computer. NEXTSTEP version 3.1 was the first  
version to run on (a very few!) PC compatibles from Dell, Compaq, etc.

As NEXTSTEP 3.3 was being developed and ported to HP and Sun workstations,  
NeXT's engineers were also working on a "next generation" API, which would  
fix some of the rough edges in NEXTSTEP's API, and was designed to be  
portable to other operating systems.

Around the time of the release of NEXTSTEP 3.3, Sun and NeXT announced the  
OpenStep specification. This is the final form of the "next generation"  
API mentioned above. NeXT developed an OpenStep implementation for it's  
own NEXTSTEP operating system, as well as one for Windows NT. Sun  
implemented the OpenStep API on top of Solaris.

NEXTSTEP 4.0 was the first OPENSTEP-compliant version of NEXTSTEP. At this  
point, the NEXTSTEP name was dropped, and the product became known as  
"OPENSTEP for Mach 4.0".

> I know this isn't right probably because I'm confused about some basic
> terms. Could someone plese explain it to me like I'm a Fortune Magazine
> editor.

I hope this helped a little bit. I don't think you'd want it explained in  
the words I'd use for a Fortune editor, though :-) Those guys are really  
starting to irritate the hell out of me lately...

-Mark 
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: dke@san.rr.com (David Every)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 16:50:54 -0800
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In article <5fcv9f$c80$1@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote:

> "Lawson English"  wrote:
> > TCL, MacApp and PowerPlant all have visual GUI applications/utilities that
> > produce template resources that contain no code, but merely allow the
> > respective OOP frameworks to parse those resources for instructions on what
> > GUI elements to load and what parameters to give them. While not as elegant
> > as IB's solution, you could tweak the GUI using the original template
> > builder, even if you had no source code, as long as you didn't delete
> > elements but merely substituted other elements with the same functionality
> > available.
> > [snipt]
> 
> Point being that IB is still more flexible in that you can add and
> delete components at will as well as modify them.  I'm not trying
> to tear down these other tools--they are good for what they do--but
> IB is an improvement.  I think it is interesting to realize that
> all these tools are newer than IB and yet they still aren't quite
> as powerful. 

You are incorrect... MacApp is older than IB. So is the resource manager.
Both are the forerunners to IB (in concept). That is not to say that IB is
not an improvement... but it is certainly not first at what it does. (I
beleive smalltalk had some similar functionality, but I am not sure)... it
just may have taken the concepts farther.


> That's a tribute to OBjective-C because the people
> writing these new tools are very clever.  And they've done some
> things very well--there's a few lessons that IMHO NeXT could learn
> to improve IB.  IB isn't perfect, you know.  :-)

Agreed... both ways. IB is a very impressive tool... but Component
Workshop, DYLAN, and other tools were pretty dynamic and integrated as
well. We can definitely bring in the best of all worlds.

-- 
--
David K. Every 
Try MacKiDo Temple - 
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 3 Mar 1997 02:43:02 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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dke@san.rr.com (David Every) wrote:
> In article <5fcv9f$c80$1@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote:
> > Point being that IB is still more flexible in that you can add and
> > delete components at will as well as modify them.  I'm not trying
> > to tear down these other tools--they are good for what they do--but
> > IB is an improvement.  I think it is interesting to realize that
> > all these tools are newer than IB and yet they still aren't quite
> > as powerful. 
> 
> You are incorrect... MacApp is older than IB. So is the resource manager.
> Both are the forerunners to IB (in concept). That is not to say that IB is
> not an improvement... but it is certainly not first at what it does. (I
> beleive smalltalk had some similar functionality, but I am not sure)... it
> just may have taken the concepts farther.

You're right--when I said that, I had in mind some newer environments which 
are clearly inferior to IB and were created after IB.  (And in the context of 
this duscussion, I should have been more clear on that because MacApp, for 
example, is clearly a predecessor.)

I do realize that IB had forerunners (it didn't just appear out of a 
vaccuum).  And SmallTalk did and does, I believe, have similar functionality.  
It's dynamic runtime, in fact, means that it has the same flexibility as 
Objective-C with the added benefit (to developers) of an interpreted 
environment.  It's been a while since I've played with it, but I remember 
some things about SmallTalk that are definitely better than what NeXT offers.  
Given the recent changes to ProjectBuilder, I'd say that they are definitely 
learning some of those needed lessons.  :-)  Now if NeXT would get the fix+go 
technology into the environment...then the gap would be shrunk between  
NeXT's Objective-C environment and Smalltalk's advantage of the interpreter.

> > That's a tribute to OBjective-C because the people
> > writing these new tools are very clever.  And they've done some
> > things very well--there's a few lessons that IMHO NeXT could learn
> > to improve IB.  IB isn't perfect, you know.  :-)
> 
> Agreed... both ways. IB is a very impressive tool... but Component
> Workshop, DYLAN, and other tools were pretty dynamic and integrated as
> well. We can definitely bring in the best of all worlds.

Yeah, I'd like to see ProjectBuilder and InterfaceBuilder do more to 
integrate with other languages.  Objective-C, C++, and Java is a good start, 
but let's add stuff for Dylan, Sather, Python, and more...

There is always room for improvement, no matter how good it is.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 06:01:38 GMT
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On 3 Mar 1997 00:46:04 GMT, kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu () wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Mar 1997 05:16:09 GMT, William Grosso  wrote:
>
>:Because, really, it's irrelevant.  Because it's *local* optimization.
>:And bad performance, in almost every piece of code I've ever seen,
>:has been an *achitectural* issue.
>
>[counterexample snipped]

This is the sort of silliness that plagues language discussions. I 
said "almost every" and I meant "almost every."

Sure there are counterexamples. That's why  I didn't say "every."

>And what about something like Eiffel, perhaps substantially closer to
>"perfect"?
>
>ISE Eiffel has 'melting ice' dynamic recompilation tecnology, despite
>being a statically type constrained OO language. 
>

Not sure why any of these features are germane. I was talking about 
support for the programmer over the application lifecycle. Why do
you think Eiffel does any better than C++ in this regard ? 


Cheers,

Andy




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From: Stefano Pagiola 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 1997 09:15:45 -0500
Organization: World Bank
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Mike Johnson wrote:
> > I want to be able to drag a file off a PC floppy onto my
> > NeXT or Mac and be able to double-click on it.  On NeXTSTEP, I generally can, and
> > if I can't, fixing it is a simple matter of adding the correct extension.  On
> > my Mac, I usually have to go to the app, open the file, and save it.  Which is
> > easier?
> 
> On a Mac you can use PC Exchange to relate a PC Extension to a Mac
> program.  Isn't this what you are doing on your NeXt machine?

On the NeXT, I don't need to use anything.  Once I insert the DOS (or Mac) floppy,
i can usually just double-click on a file directly to open it, or drag-and-drop
a file into the NeXT's filesystem, at which point its ready to go without further
intervention.  (Note that for this to work with Mac-origin files, I do need to
add the proper extension -- eg .doc to a Word doc -- when I save it on the Mac.)

-- 
Stefano Pagiola
850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA
All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 3 Mar 1997 12:29:58 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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On 03/02/97, John De Hoog wrote:

> Gil was not talking about OpenStep/Mach, but about the present Mac
> system. I am not prepared to argue that Win95 is technically superior
> to OpenStep, but they don't even serve the same audience.
>
As Rhapsody, OpenStep will serve the same audience as Win95 -- only better.

> WinNT not only has more application
> support but is technically on a level that can compete with most
> Unix-based systems out there, including NeXTStep. (Rhapsody doesn't
> exist, so we'll have to wait until it does and until it has a full
> stable of applications before we can talk about its merits.)
> 
For the purposes of debate, given what we know so far, it's reasonable to 
talk about OpenStep/Mac as if it were Rhapsody.  I do not believe NT is in 
the same league as Unix.

> The original question was about productivity. It would be pretty hard
> for anyone but a developer or a vertical-application user to be very
> productive on today's NeXT system, in today's application context.
>
This is drivel.  I, and many others, use NEXTSTEP as a productivity 
environment.  Indeed, one of the primary reasons I use NEXTSTEP is because I 
find ti to be a much more productive environment than Windows.  

> Some time ago I asked a question in the next.advocacy group about
> everyday-use applications available for NeXTStep, and it turned out
> there were precious few of the kind I have grown used to on Windows.
>
Try asking again.  I'm certainly not going to claim that every niche is 
filled, however, as I just said, I get my daily work done fine in NEXTSTEP.  
More easily, in fact, than my colleagues using Windows.

> In particular, there were few applications geared to people using a
> dial-up Internet account.
>
How many duplicat applications do you need?  Provided there is at least one 
solution, and there is at least one, then the requirement is satisfied.

> It seems the typical NeXTStep user works in
> an environment with a dedicated network connection. There are
> apparently no offline Web browsers like Tierra Highlights, no good
> offline news readers like Forte Agent, and no email clients of the
> caliber of Becky! Internet Mail 1.20.
>
I'll defere to Chuck's comments about offline browsing etc.

> The equivalent of Office 97 for NeXT does not exist. 
> 
I'd say this was a *feature*.  As far as I am aware, all the component apps 
exist -- although in much more slimline form (they collectively take up 
probably as much disk space as a single app from M$'s bloatware) -- indeed 
there are *alternatives*.  The strength of NEXTSTEP's integration is such 
that you're not forced to buy all your apps from one vendor just to get them 
to work together effectively.

> You can talk all you want about technical superiority, but
> productivity requires applications first of all. And you can talk all
> you want about how easy it is to develop applications on NeXTStep, but
> as far as I know
>
You've shown you don't know enough.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: thomas@gamelan.shnet.org._NO_SPAM (Thomas Funke)
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Message-ID: <1997Mar1.101245.513@gamelan.shnet.org>
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In <33145768.42D7@ra.anl.gov> TH Fanning wrote:

> I completely disagree with this.  What if I try tons of
> software, each one adding to my "defaults database", but
> then I delete these apps from my system.  Wouldn't the
> database slowly grow over time?  How do I "clean" it
> out?  With separate files, I can just trash them.

And as with any database, you an trash entries in the default database as 
well. This is not PC-world :-)


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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 13:53:16 GMT
Organization: Experts, Inc.
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mmalcolm crawford  said:

>As Rhapsody, OpenStep will serve the same audience as Win95 -- only better.

Be specific, please. People want applications, not just pretty
technology.

>> 
>For the purposes of debate, given what we know so far, it's reasonable to 
>talk about OpenStep/Mac as if it were Rhapsody.  I do not believe NT is in 
>the same league as Unix.

Since Rhapsody isn't available and NT is, you'll have to compare
Rhapsody with the future NT. When Rhapsody ships, NT will be all that
more mature, while Rhapsody will still be in diapers. By the time a
stable release is out, and it has full application support, what year
or what century do you suppose we'll be in? Where will NT be at that
time? These are the relevant considerations. If you want to talk about
NeXT, then answer my application concerns.

>> Some time ago I asked a question in the next.advocacy group about
>> everyday-use applications available for NeXTStep, and it turned out
>> there were precious few of the kind I have grown used to on Windows.
>>
>Try asking again.  I'm certainly not going to claim that every niche is 
>filled, however, as I just said, I get my daily work done fine in NEXTSTEP.  
>More easily, in fact, than my colleagues using Windows.

It depends on what work you and they are doing. Your arguments are
singularly lacking in specifics, whereas I have been quite specific in
my answers to Chuck and Ken.

>How many duplicat applications do you need?  Provided there is at least one 
>solution, and there is at least one, then the requirement is satisfied.

So where are the offline tools? The agents that search the Web for
you? Where is the equivalent of my email client that I described
elsewhere in this thread?

>I'll defere to Chuck's comments about offline browsing etc.

And please read my responses as well. 
>
>> The equivalent of Office 97 for NeXT does not exist. 
>> 
>I'd say this was a *feature*.  As far as I am aware, all the component apps 
>exist -- although in much more slimline form (they collectively take up 
>probably as much disk space as a single app from M$'s bloatware) -- indeed 
>there are *alternatives*.  The strength of NEXTSTEP's integration is such 
>that you're not forced to buy all your apps from one vendor just to get them 
>to work together effectively.

 50% of the Office 97 code is shared. What do you mean by slimline
form? How do you define bloatware? Not everyone is content with the
bare minimum of features.

>You've shown you don't know enough.

So answer my specific questions about specific application areas.
Look, I'm genuinely interested in a user-friendly Unix. Instead of
trying to pretend NeXT (and by extension Rhapsody) is something it's
not, why not be honest about its weaknesses? Then your audience might
be more open to its potential. 

------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: MiscTableMatrix Palette !!
Date: 3 Mar 97 14:22:07 GMT
Organization: Lysis SA
Message-ID: <331ade8f.0@news.planet.ch>
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In <5f70bj$6b6$1@news.xmission.com> Don Yacktman wrote:
> yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle) wrote:
> > I have the MiscKit 2.0.2 version.
> > 
> > I try to compile the few available palettes ....
> > But i just manage to compile the MiscSwitchView palette !
> > 
> > Does someone manage to compile the MiscTabMatrix palette
> > under OpenStep 4.1 ??
> > When i try to compile MiscTabMatrix, i have an error like
> > NEXT_ROOT = variable undefined !!!
> >  
> > If yes, i am interessting to get a good version 
> 
> So am I!  :-)
> 
> Seriously, I'm working on getting things working more smoothly,
> but there is still a lot of work to do.  Help is certainly wanted
> and welcome...
> 
> I do hope to be making some new releases soon, but please remember
> that the OPENSTEP stuff is, right now, pretty gamey and needs a
> lot of work before it has the maturity of the NEXTSTEP kit.
> 

I've tried to port MiscTabMatrix.palette to 4.1, with a few enhancements like 
using NSButtonCells; I've nearly finished now, I just have some nasty 
graphical bugs to zap, and I hope it will be OK at end of March (I'm fairly 
busy now). As soon as I have a good version, I will submit it to Sean 
(shill@iphysiol.unil.ch) and MiscKit, if it's not too late...

Stephane

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From: Jason Lincoln 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Q: NeXTSTEP and RPC
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 22:12:54 +0000
Organization: Oracle Corp.
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Hi All,

I would like to create a NeXTSTEP frontend to Oracle Office.  I have the programmers book on Oracle Office
which describes the API to Oracle Office.  This API is built in C functions.  I had hoped that I would beable 
to use EOF and connect to the Office database but it doesn't look like Oracle Office works that way.  My 
question pertains to calling the Oracle Office API C functions.  I have the appropriate header files but do 
not know how to enable my NeXTSTEP application to call these functions which reside on another box.  I believe 
I can do this using Remote Procedural Calls but I am not sure.  Also, should I beable to take the object files 
and link them into my NeXTSTEP executable?  Any suggestions, observations, or links to information is 
appreciated.

Thanks,

Jason
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From: rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at (Robert F Tobler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 3 Mar 1997 17:10:33 GMT
Organization: Vienna University of Technology, Austria
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In <5f4gh8$7f4@crl.crl.com> Van C. Bagnol wrote:
> The potential problem is that the current NeXTSTEP user mapping
> goes by filename extension ("type") and to expand this scheme to 
> individual files will increase the mapping by an order of magnitude;
> to expand out to a network or to the number of users on the network 
> it increases by another order of magnitude, which increases the 
> management of it all.
> 

As soon as one user logs in, the database for his preferences are loaded.
Thus, also there are databases for all other users in their respective home 
directories, they are not needed at that time.  So I don't think it very
hard to maintain.
Even for a larger network this is not hard, since the user needs to do the 
mapping change on the files himeself, and therefore it cannot happen that
there are thousands of mappings autmatically created when a network 
filesystem bcomes available.
Now it would even be possible to make the per-user settings rule based. e.g.:

~/PhotoshopTIFFs/*.tiff	-> Photoshop
~/TIFFanyTIFFs/*.tiff		-> TIFFany
/Net/*.tiff			-> FASTview

This way the amount of mapping information is reduced to a small number of 
rules, and maybe some exceptions for individual files.

> What I'm not sure happens is when files are moved around the filesystem
> or network, or if the files or directories in the path to the file are
> renamed.

The application that maintains the database is the Workspace Manager.
All the file operations from the GUI are also done via the Worksapce Manager,
so it can easily track the information and update the database.

Now if you use the commandline, this information cannot be as easily 
maintained.  But I don't think it would be hard to add some additional
commands to the commandline that maintain the information. e.g.:
	gui-cp		cp which maintains the extension mapping
	gui-mv		mv which maintains the extension mapping
I do not think it would be too much of a burden to give the command line user 
the choice between the raw unix copy and the command that maintain the 
mapping database.  The CLI user even has the choice to hide the 'gui-*' 
commands behind aliases, so that even his mv and cp track the database.  

> 
> Keeping a parallel structure of file entries synchronized with a 
> filesystem is a lot more work than maintaining a list of just the 
> files' types. Let alone keeping several such parallel structures.
> 

As I said:  Only one databse needs to be maintained for each user, thus this 
does not add to the complexityof the database engine; it only adds to the 
used disk space. And the diskspace is also negligible.  Suppose a user has 
made 10000 mappings (this is a lot, on a standalone PC about 1000 mappings is 
a much better estimate) at about 50 bytes per mapping (a bit optimized here) 
it costs 500KBytes. 

So in a big network of PC's you might need about 500kbyte more per user.
I think its worth it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Robert F. Tobler                 -  tel:+43(1)58801-4585,fax:5874932
  Institute of Computer Graphics   -  mailto:rft@cg.tuwien.ac.at
  Vienna University of Technology  -  http://www.cg.tuwien.ac.at/~rft/

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: MiscTableMatrix Palette !!
Date: 3 Mar 1997 18:02:39 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <5ff3nv$1do$1@news.xmission.com>
References: <5f6rl6$nb4@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr> <5f70bj$6b6$1@news.xmission.com> <331ade8f.0@news.planet.ch>
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stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy) wrote:
> I've tried to port MiscTabMatrix.palette to 4.1, with a few
> enhancements like using NSButtonCells; I've nearly finished now,
> I just have some nasty graphical bugs to zap, and I hope it will
> be OK at end of March (I'm fairly busy now).  As soon as I have
> a good version, I will submit it to Sean 
> (shill@iphysiol.unil.ch) and MiscKit, if it's not too late...

Please do.  Even if you don't have all the bugs out, submit it
anyway and we'll put it in the Temp area.  That way, someone
else, in the meantime, might be able to help you zap the bugs...
you don't have to do it all yourself.  :-)

That goes for any MiscKit submission--it doesn't have to be
complete to be of value.  There are over 200 people reading
the MiscKit developer list, so in theory there should always
be someone available to take up a little slack if help is needed
to complete a particular submission.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: 3 Mar 1997 13:10:03 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 120
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In article <331A0AD3.A0D@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote:

> Let's be scientific about this: that is see if the theory makes sense,
> and then if observations done in experiments support the theory.

Okay, and while you're at it, be sure to give plenty of "observations"
without supporting or opposing references.

> 2) Applications programming and maintenance is greatly simplified, reducing
> cost, the whole point of software engineering research.

At the expense of the operating system making assumptions about how to
handle errors that are potentially inappropriate to the application at
hand.

> 3) OBSERVATION: operations interface is consistent making operations
> considerably easier. Operators know what to do, even if they are not
> familiar with an application. Another observation is that in
> fact you need less operators to run these systems.

Give specific examples, especially of ones where operators know what to do
without being familiar with an application, where they would also _not_
know what to do with a similar unfamiliar application on a system such
as Unix.

> [Deadlock stuff]

I will grant that limiting application processes and giving well-defined
restricted actions to the OS will reduce deadlock.  I also don't think
that it's worth the restrictions being imposed, for anything but the
utmost of high reliability systems.  I've been using Unix for nearly 8
years now and can count the instances which the machine _might_ have
deadlocked (I don't know for sure) on the fingers of one hand.  Most
operating systems don't bother trying to produce deadlock-free systems,
for that reason.

> 5) CONCURRENCY: THEORY: processes can run until some resource they
> depend on is not available because it is locked, eg., being produced
> by another process. In general, it is undesirable for concurrent
> operations to be non-deterministic.

> The process scheduler will move processes from the waiting entries
> list to the ready queue when the waited on resource becomes available,
> without operator intervention. For the resource to become available
> might require operator intervention, but it could also be automatic from
> some other process
> [...]
> However, this can occur in any system
> and is independent of the original suggestion, where management of the 
> resources is moved out of the application process set.

I'm not sure we're clear on what the original suggestion I was objecting
to was.  I wasn't objecting to having the OS handle management of
resources.  I was objecting to the OS trying to handle error conditions
that the application should really handle itself, and especially the
idea of operating systems _requiring_ user intervention in order to
handle errors.  And especially, a fixed kind of user intervention, such
as a system-standard dialog box.  You think this is a good thing because
it promotes consistency.  I think it limits the application's choice in
how to handle errors.

> 7) CORRECTNESS: THEORY: "Correctness is the ability of software
> products to exactly perform their tasks, as defined by the
> requirements and the specification." Bertrand Meyer Object-Oriented
> Software Construction (first edition) (2nd edition will be available
> any time now.)

> OBSERVATION: The larger and more complex an application is, the more
> likely it is to fail the correctness criteria. Having applications
> programmers code for a plethora of exceptions that they should not
> have to worry about, because they belong to the environment,
> increases the risk that failure will occur in the application. 

I agree that programmers should have a stock of basic error-handling
machines from which to draw, I don't like coding exception handlers any
more than you do, but I think that applications programmers should have
the choice of handling errors in any way they desire, including ignoring
them.  This does not preclude the possibility of having a library of
error handlers.

> 8) ROBUSTNESS: THEORY: "Robustness is the ability of software systems
> to function even in abnormal conditions." Also OOSC 1st ed. In my
> suggestion, abnormal conditions are filtered from applications
> by the resource managers. This does not remove the possibility that
> an application may opt to handle specific exceptions, subject of
> course to security constraints.

If you want the OS to handle more exceptions by default, that's fine.
But if the OS is going to be doing that sort of thing, it needs
to follow a policy of _minimal_ intervention, rather than maximal.
Throwing up an interactive dialog box every time a file cannot be found
can be _wildly_ inappropriate for many applications.  The OS does _not_
"always know best".  Rather than forcing programmers to override the OS's
exception hanlding constantly (which is the whole reason you purport to
like this scheme, as it's supposed to keep the programmer from constantly
worrying about exceptional conditions), the OS should take the minimum
action necessary to prevent fatal errors, and allow the application to
layer on additional error handling if desired.

I'm not against handling exceptions on a global, OS-wide level.  I just
think that the OS should attempt to handle exceptions by default in a
minimal way that is appropriate for all processes (which often means
very little exception handling, just enough to keep a process from
dying), and allow application processes to register their own exception
handlers (including null handlers), subject to OS security constraints,
etc. as you say.  And especially, an OS should never require user
intervention, except in cases where it _only_ makes sense for a user to
make a decision.  The only example I can think of is an error that is
known to be in response to a user-invoked action (as opposed to a
programmatically invoked one), where the error affects the operation of
the entire system.  For example, if the user initiated a reboot from
the console, and something went wrong, _then_ it would be appropriate to
send a dialog to the console requesting intervention.  But in precious
few other cases is requiring human intervention a universally
appropriate action.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 3 Mar 1997 18:10:42 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Lines: 12
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> So answer my specific questions about specific application areas.
> Look, I'm genuinely interested in a user-friendly Unix. Instead of
> trying to pretend NeXT (and by extension Rhapsody) is something it's
> not, why not be honest about its weaknesses? Then your audience might
> be more open to its potential. 
> 
Where have I not been honest?  What applications are you looking for which 
NEXTSTEP lacks?

-- 

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From: zizi zhao 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 15:01:22 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> 
> > So answer my specific questions about specific application areas.
> > Look, I'm genuinely interested in a user-friendly Unix. Instead of
> > trying to pretend NeXT (and by extension Rhapsody) is something it's
> > not, why not be honest about its weaknesses? Then your audience might
> > be more open to its potential.
> >
> Where have I not been honest?  What applications are you looking for which
> NEXTSTEP lacks?
> 

Apps from microsoft.

ZZ ;~/
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 3 Mar 1997 18:24:35 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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On 03/03/97, John De Hoog wrote:
> Like I said, no offline news readers like Forte Agent.
>
Wrong: HHNews.app allows you to read news offline.

> Now let my turn your question around. What advantages does the
> Lighthouse suite offer over Office 97?
> 
They take up a lot less disk space than Office97 (150MB?!)

To turn your question around: what advantages does Office97 offer over 
numerous applications NEXTSTEP offers which adequately cover the same 
functionality?

Best wishes,

mmalc.


-- 

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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Finding return type in forward:: ?
Date: 3 Mar 1997 20:17:34 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <5ffbku$qul@news.next.com>
References: <5f94ku$dih@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: bananajr.next.com

Gregor Hoffleit writes
> In forward::, is it possible to find out what return type the forwarded
> selector is expected to return to the caller ?
> 
> AFAIK, for methods known to the runtime you could request that by
> class_getInstanceMethod() and method_getArgumentInfo(), but it seems
> to be possible for a `unknown' and therefore forwarded method.
> 
> 	Gregor

This is not generally possible with forward::, which is part of the  
"everything's an id" heritage of Objective-C. You can do it with  
forwardInvocation: and methodSignatureForSelector: in Foundation-based  
code.

Except that really you can't :-) The problem is that the return type is  
"known" at two different places: the calling site and the method  
implementation. Unfortunately, the return type of the message isn't  
encoded in the selector. Too bad, since that would allow overloading  
return type in objective-C methods, which would be an interesting feature  
to play around with.

You can only find out the "expected" return type if you know which  
class&method the piece of code calling you thinks it is messaging. It just  
gets more complicated from here though, so I'll just quit while I'm  
ahead...

Moral of the story: if you're going to use forward::, only forward methods  
that return type id, or a compatible type (pointer types and int).

So, what are you trying to do that got you into this mess, anyway?

--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 21:58:28 GMT
Organization: Experts, Inc.
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mmalcolm crawford  said:

>
>> So answer my specific questions about specific application areas.
>> Look, I'm genuinely interested in a user-friendly Unix. Instead of
>> trying to pretend NeXT (and by extension Rhapsody) is something it's
>> not, why not be honest about its weaknesses? Then your audience might
>> be more open to its potential. 
>> 
>Where have I not been honest?  What applications are you looking for which 
>NEXTSTEP lacks?

No one has responded to my replies to Chuck and Ken, in which I laid
out some specific application functionality that, apparently, NeXTStep
does not offer. All three examples I gave relate to the Internet,
obviously a key computer application area and not a "niche". 
------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 21:59:27 GMT
Organization: Experts, Inc.
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mmalcolm crawford  said:

>On 03/03/97, John De Hoog wrote:
>> Like I said, no offline news readers like Forte Agent.
>>
>Wrong: HHNews.app allows you to read news offline.

That does not make it the equal of Forte Agent. Tell me what else it
can do. How does it handle multi-part binaries? Does it have threaded
viewing? Filtering? What kind of email support? In other words, to
what extent have they gone beyond the bare-bones Unix tool to provide
a truly convenient offline reader?
>
>> Now let my turn your question around. What advantages does the
>> Lighthouse suite offer over Office 97?
>> 
>They take up a lot less disk space than Office97 (150MB?!)

Let's compare like to like. Few people need to install all the Office
97 templates, samples, illustrations and other extras, most of which
can be left on the CD-ROM. The functional parts of the programs
themselves take up much less space. 
>
>To turn your question around: what advantages does Office97 offer over 
>numerous applications NEXTSTEP offers which adequately cover the same 
>functionality?

I don't know, because you haven't told me anything about those
applications. I'm sure there are some very good ones, but when I ask
for specifics, both this time and a couple of months ago, NeXTSteppers
seem reluctant to present any of the details.



------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 03 Mar 1997 14:17:29 -0800
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dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) writes:
> mmalcolm crawford  said:

> No one has responded to my replies to Chuck and Ken, in which I laid
> out some specific application functionality that, apparently, NeXTStep
> does not offer. All three examples I gave relate to the Internet,
> obviously a key computer application area and not a "niche". 

`Relating to the Internet' doesn't automatically mean that the
application is a `key computer application'.  The Internet itself *is*
important, and NeXTSTEP handles it pretty well.  Things like browsing
the Internet when you're not connected to the Internet can be
considered another matter.

You're attempting to state that NeXTSTEP productivity is sorely
lacking, due to an absence of important applications.  Although an
offline browser may be important to *you*, it does not appear to be
important to over 95% of the browsing public.  I, for one, find it
very hard to get hot and bothered about its absence.  I suspect there
are several must-have apps on my dock that you would find totally
unimportant.

If we're going to argue about the death of productivity on NeXT boxes,
can we at least find areas that most people *agree* is important?

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: gupta@tlctest.mt.att.com. (Arun Gupta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 3 Mar 1997 03:44:22 GMT
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John De Hoog  wrote:
>
>Who do you think has spent more time actually using both System 7 and
>Win95 for real work on a daily basis, Gil Amelio or John De Hoog?
>
>Gil may know the MacOS is a mess, but he doesn't grasp the depth of
>the mess. 

Once again, you make your false claim that Gil Amelio said that the
MacOS is a mess. Surely you are more creative.

-arun gupta
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Followup-To: comp.sys.next..advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 3 Mar 1997 23:49:31 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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On 03/03/97, zizi zhao wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford wrote:
> > Where have I not been honest?  What applications are you looking for
> > which NEXTSTEP lacks?
> > 
> 
> Apps from microsoft.
> 
OK, touche'.

What do you actually need, though -- I suspect that there is likely to be a 
NEXTSTEP app available which will meet your needs.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

(followups directed to advocacy groups)

-- 

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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 28 Feb 1997 09:59:19 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
> Garance A Drosehn  writes:
>    shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
>    > It's the latency that's important.  If an inode has 96 bytes of
>    > information, you can fit 10 inodes in a 1k fragment.  If an inode
>    > has 128 bytes, you can only fit 8, if it has 160 bytes, you can
>    > only fit 6.
> 
>    I do not buy the argument that there will be a significant
>    (obvious-to-the-user) performance penalty ...
> 
>    The overhead should only come when opening files, and it isn't
>    going to be all *that* much different.
> 
> Well, I'm not really arguing that adding a couple bits to the
> structures is going to affect anything in a truly user-visible
> fashion.  I'm concerned with the drawing of the line - if we're
> going to add such-and-such bits, well, lets also add these other
> bits, too.

My thought would be to draw the line at the things already supported
by the MacOS, assuming we were willing to go with any changes to
the inode structure.  Offhand I can't think of much more which that
would add other than the creation-date timestamp.  Now, having said
that I'll just turn around and argue against any major inode/catalog
changes, but the reason would not be anything to do with system
performance.


>    > In essence, that's what this thread is about - the creation
>    > timestamp is one more bit of info helpful to the user.  I'm
>    > arguing that this bit is very seldom used, and though it
>    > might be useful periodically, it's not useful frequently
>    > enough to be worth hazarding throughput.  If you make the
>    > things the user does hundreds of times a day fast, it's not
>    > too painful if you make the things they do once a week a
>    > bit slower.
> 
>    Note that if one uses a resource-fork approach to storing
>    little bits of info, then you have fewer catalog lookups to
>    do (which is to say, the application is doing fewer file-open
>    operations).  I think it would be inconsistent to wail and
>    moan about adding a tiny bit of overhead to a file-open, but
>    then be quite comfortable and gung-ho about organizing
>    information in such a way that greatly increases the number
>    of file-open's which are done every time an application is
>    launched or a document is opened.  If file opens are so
>    expensive in the first case, then we should not be so calm
>    about them in the second case.
> 
> Hold on!  If you make the arbitrary assumption that _all_ files
> have two forks, then indeed introducing a wrapper is problematic.

It isn't that all files have two forks.  It's that the resource
fork is a mini-database of small things.  Ignore the data fork.
If a file has a resource fork, then that fork is *one* file.  If
you split that into a wrapper, that same information will (most
likely) be stored in multiple files.  This is good for pieces
of info which are large (such as a tiff image for a document),
and not so great if the pieces are little tiny things.

It is also nice to have a simpleton's database system handy, where
you can index some information based on a 4-byte key.  It's better
to have that data in a single file, instead of spread out over
lots of little files.

Note, for instance, that this is exactly the thinking behind
the defaults database on NeXTSTEP.  You have one file with a
simple database interface, instead of spreading things over
lots of files.

> Now you've got an additional level of manipulation, without any
> gain.  But, in my experience with NeXTSTEP (and also personal
> computers in general), files as wrappers tend to be the minority.

My experience with Macs suggests that it happens more on a Mac,
because the system makes it convenient to do.  Particularly when
some piece of information is for the benefit of the system, instead
of being for the application.  Think of version-information, for
instance, or custom icons for documents.  The *system* needs to
know how to access that information for *any* document.  The mac
can do this, due to the resource fork.

> Most files tend to be just what they appear, a plain old file.

This is because most other operating systems can not do the same
thing, not as conveniently at least.  I'd love it if I could find
out the version of *every* NeXTSTEP application without having to
start the application up, for instance.  This should be information
available at the file-viewer level, but NeXT has no standard way
of doing this.  If it did have a standard way, it would either be:

   1) some new file in the app wrapper
   2) a piece of data in some mini-database file in the app
      wrapper (a Mach-O segment?  A nib?).  In essense, this
      file would be mighty similar to the resource fork of
      a Mac.

> Furthermore, my experience indicates that files with more than
> one fork generally tend to want an arbitrary number of forks.

This is my experience too.

> The number of files with exactly two forks would be in a very
> small minority.

The MacOS started with two, and has long been making noises
about having more...

I think one way to do this is to have some kind of "resource type"
of file ("type" in same sense that "tiff" is a type of file).  An
app wrapper might have one of these, with a specific name, for
system-level information (information that the system would like
to see from all applications or documents, such as "version"
information).

Apps could then have other files of the same type.  You could have
some application which would know how to inspect and set values in
a "resource file".  Maybe even call it ResEdit.  Each of these
files could be thought of as a fork, but it wouldn't be quite as
much of a cross-platform pain as the single resource fork is on
a Mac.

Well, I've been awake too long for me to make this sound as brilliant
as I'd like it to sound, and in any case all of this is unrelated
to the point I was making in my earlier article.  My point was that
for every file where a NeXTSTEP advocate might say "It's OK to take
the single resource fork of this file and turn it into multiple
files inside an app-wraper", you are asking people to put up with
the overhead of doing multiple file-opens.  That performance penalty
is, I suspect, larger than the *performance* penalty from adding
the creation-date field to the inode information.  This is especially
true if, as others have stated, there is already some spare room
in the layout of an inode.

I do agree that the performance penalty of app-wrappers is (usually)
not going to be significant enough to care about, but at the same
time I'm not going to agree with the performance-related argument
against adding a little bit more information to the inode.  There
are *other* good reasons not to do that, but performance isn't one
of them.  As I said earlier, I end up coming to the same conclusion
as Scott, but for different (and I think more defendable) reasons.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 00:24:36 GMT
Organization: Experts, Inc.
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David Young  said:

>In comp.sys.next.programmer John De Hoog  wrote:
>: That does not make it the equal of Forte Agent. Tell me what else it
>: can do. How does it handle multi-part binaries? Does it have threaded
>: viewing? Filtering? What kind of email support? In other words, to
>: what extent have they gone beyond the bare-bones Unix tool to provide
>: a truly convenient offline reader?
>
>You're an idiot. We're not here to justify the quality of our applications.
>Curious? Try NEXTSTEP. Find out. We say it's good because it does everything
>we need. Your mileage may vary. Agent sucks. I've seen it do nothing but
>crash on the 95 boxes at the office. There are at least five NEXTSTEP
>native news readers, *plus* whatever UNIX newsreaders there are.

Thanks for the insults, and thanks most of all for side-stepping the
specific questions. I now realize, from your answers and from the lack
of answers to my questions about automatic Web agents, html email
clients, etc., and from the fact that most of you don't even
understand the features I've described (e.g., don't understand the
need of a SOHO user with a dial-up Internet connection and multiple
providers), that Apple has bought a company with very little chance of
bringing it into the mainstream.

Happy niche-playing!


------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: Patrick Schulz 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 13:26:42 +0100
Organization: Institute of Computer Engineering, CS department, University of Technology Dresden, Germany
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Garance A Drosehn wrote:
>
[ a lot of true stuff, but deleted ]
> People who are just joining this adventure now might think that
> I'm making all of the above up just to be funny, but I'm reasonably
> sure that I have all the facts straight there.

The thing what makes this term a real advanture is how NeXT and Sun
deals with.

NeXT defined:
OPENSTEP for [any OS]  - Product, Implementation and extension (!!!)
                         of the Standard 
OpenStep               - The standard (API) itself as defined with Sun		

Sun defined:
OpenStep Solaris   - Product, Implementation and a few extensions
                     of the Standard and some Applications
                     (WorkSpace...) to run under Solaris
Workshop OpenStep  - Product, Programming Tools for developing 
                     applications for OpenStep Solaris (requires in-
                     stalled OpenStep Solaris Product)
OpenStep           - The standard (API) itself as defined with NeXT

OK, this seems understandable. But here are some examples
for the confusing usage of the term by NeXT and Sun itself:

http://www.next.com/OPENSTEP/Initiative.html 
Here you can see the "OPENSTEP compliant" logo, which by logic
should be spelled "OpenStep compliant" It just makes no sense to
be compliant to a product.

here "OpenStep" is used for both, standard and implementation
http://www.next.com/NeXTanswers/HTMLFiles/1989.htmld/1989.html

here you'll find different capitalization in header and text ...
http://www.eu.sun.com/sunsoft/solaris/press/openstep.html
http://www.next.com/AboutNeXT/PressKit/PressReleases/1996/Solarisv2.html
    
BTW: Apple often uses the term "OPENSTEP based API". For me this 
     sounds like adoping all OpenStep API plus all NeXT extensions
     for the new MacOS. This could make Rhapsody programs to be 
     NOT compliant to the OpenStep Standard, when they use the 
     NeXT extensions.

Summary: Don't care about how "openstep" is written, just try to
         imagine what could be meant by using it :-)   
--
Patrick Schulz; Alaunstrasse 21a D-01099 Dresden; Germany
email: schulz@freia.inf.tu-dresden.de (MIME & NeXTmail welcome)
http://www.inf.tu-dresden.de/~ps3/
-
 vmunix: panic - no coffee detected, user halted.
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 3 Mar 1997 23:31:08 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.programmer John De Hoog  wrote:
: That does not make it the equal of Forte Agent. Tell me what else it
: can do. How does it handle multi-part binaries? Does it have threaded
: viewing? Filtering? What kind of email support? In other words, to
: what extent have they gone beyond the bare-bones Unix tool to provide
: a truly convenient offline reader?

You're an idiot. We're not here to justify the quality of our applications.
Curious? Try NEXTSTEP. Find out. We say it's good because it does everything
we need. Your mileage may vary. Agent sucks. I've seen it do nothing but
crash on the 95 boxes at the office. There are at least five NEXTSTEP
native news readers, *plus* whatever UNIX newsreaders there are.

You're also obviously lacking in the clue deparment when you assume that
UNIX tools are bare bones. nn and tin are extraordinarily powerful and
easy to use, despite being text based. 

: Let's compare like to like. Few people need to install all the Office
: 97 templates, samples, illustrations and other extras, most of which
: can be left on the CD-ROM. The functional parts of the programs
: themselves take up much less space. 

Bullshit, you choose typical install and you get 210MB of shit.
Very few people pick through the custom installation.

: I don't know, because you haven't told me anything about those
: applications. I'm sure there are some very good ones, but when I ask
: for specifics, both this time and a couple of months ago, NeXTSteppers
: seem reluctant to present any of the details.

Here's what you've done:
1. You make a statement like "NEXTSTEP doesn't have ApplicationX", without
   being a NEXTSTEP user.
2. We say, "yes, it does."
3. You say, "Yeah, but it's not as good", again, without being a NEXTSTEP
   user.
4. You ask us to justify it with features.

Besides, how can you describe how driving a Lotus Esprit is better than
a Ford Pinto to someone who's only driven the lemon?

"It feels better."
"Explain?"
"It handles better."
"Huh?"

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 3 Mar 1997 23:47:02 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5ffntm$qt7@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
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On 03/03/97, John De Hoog wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford  said:
> That does not make it the equal of Forte Agent. Tell me what else it
> can do. How does it handle multi-part binaries? Does it have threaded
> viewing? Filtering? What kind of email support? In other words, to
> what extent have they gone beyond the bare-bones Unix tool to provide
> a truly convenient offline reader?
> >
Ah, having satisfied your initial requirements, the old changing the 
goalposts manouevre...

Yes; yes; it allows you to follow-up by email, news, or both; don't 
understand the question; far enough.


> >To turn your question around: what advantages does Office97 offer over 
> >numerous applications NEXTSTEP offers which adequately cover the same 
> >functionality?
> 
> I don't know, because you haven't told me anything about those
> applications. I'm sure there are some very good ones, but when I ask
> for specifics, both this time and a couple of months ago, NeXTSteppers
> seem reluctant to present any of the details.
> 
What details do you want?  Never mind, let me put it this way -- what 
compelling advantage does Office97 offer that makes it essential for me to 
use?

Rhetorical -- the answer it none: you claimed, in effect, that NEXTSTEP does 
not support "productivity users"; I represent existence proof that it does.

Indeed, for the most part, I seem able to achieve more using NEXTSTEP than my 
colleagues using Windows "solutions".

Does Windows offer a WYSIWYG PostScript-editing tool?  (Even a text editor 
that could happily cope with files greater than about a megabyte would be 
good, then I might have a chance at hand-editing it; sadly Windows seems 
unable even to offer that.)

Best wishes,

mmalc.

(followups directed to advocacy groups)

-- 

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From: frank@ali.bc.ca (Frank Pang)
Subject: Memory leaks when unarchiving?
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Reply-To: frank@ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 00:10:07 GMT
Lines: 73

I have a problem which has nagged me for too long.  I get memory leaks
and had MallocDebug trace the source of the leaks to a call to
[NSUnarchiver unarchiveObjectWithFile:@"foo"].  The sample code compiles
and runs fine except that it will generate a memory leak on the second
iteration below.  I use MallocDebug library to trace the leak.  Am I
missing something here?   I am compiling this with the standard cc, using 
NeXTStep 3.3 with EOF 1.1 so I have the Foundation libraries dated Feb 27
1995.  Do cc flags matter here?  Yes I do link -lFoundation_s and 
-lMallocDebug.

here's a snippet of a simple class:
definition:
@interface Asset : NSObject 
{
    NSString *name;
}

snips of the implementation:
- (id)initWithCoder:(NSCoder *)coder
{
    NSString *newName;

    newName = [coder decodeObject];
    [self setName:newName];
    return self;
}

- (void)encodeWithCoder:(NSCoder *)coder
{
    [coder encodeObject:name];
}


*** this code causes leaks on the second iteration of the for loop.
#import 
#import 
#import 
#import 
#import 
#import 

int main (void)
{
    Asset *ass, *anAsset;
    int i;
    NSAutoreleasePool *aPool;
    
    ass = [[Asset alloc] init];
    
    [ass setName:@"foo"];
    
    for (i = 0; i < 3; i++)
    {
    aPool = [[NSAutoreleasePool alloc] init];
    // save test
    [NSArchiver archiveRootObject:ass toFile:@"foo"];
    printf ("archived, press a key.\n");
    getchar ();
    
    // unarchive
    anAsset = [NSUnarchiver unarchiveObjectWithFile:@"foo"];
    printf ("unarchived, press a key.\n");
    getchar ();
    [aPool release];
    }
}

--
Frank Pang,                              frank@ali.bc.ca
Software Developer
A.L.I. Technologies Ltd.,                (NeXT & MIME accepted here)
95-10551 Shellbridge Way, Richmond, BC,  279-5422 (ext. 366)
Canada V6X 2W9
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From: "Andrew McPherson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: 4 Mar 97 01:56:23 GMT
Organization: Central Institute of Technology
Lines: 12
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Ok, so UNIX is robust.
Like wow! 
I suppose the users will really care about that more than the interface!
Let's face it folks, UNIX sucks!
Not from a technical point, but from a end-user point.
You know that UNIX is just not an option for the vast home/small business
market, because the interface is even worse than MS-DOG.

We'll take the best from the UNIX systems, put the mac interface on it and
blow away the Wintel market with better marketing.
And that's how apple came up with MacOS8...

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 01:03:10 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 80
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dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) wrote:
> I now realize, from your answers and from the lack
> of answers to my questions [...]

We don't even pay attention to our own *ssholes except when
cleaning up after certain business...so why should we pay
attention to some other *sshole?

> about automatic Web agents, html email
> clients, etc., and from the fact that most of you don't even
> understand the features I've described (e.g., don't understand the
> need of a SOHO user with a dial-up Internet connection and multiple
> providers), 

You don't honestly believe that we're all a bunch of rich
twits with dedicated T1's to connect us to the net, do you?
I, and most other NeXT users, understand the features you
want and why they are important.  They exist, for the most
part, in OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP, but not necessarily in the
form you are used to.  To do offline browsing or newsreading,
as per one of your examples, we use the Harvest WWW cache
and INN (or other alternatives that do the same thing).  The
beauty of that approach is that they turn every browser and
news reader into an offline browser/reader.  They aren't too
bad to set up, either, since some people have been nice enough
to create Installer.app packages that put it together for you.

Intelligent agents don't seem to be in abundance (as far as web
spiders go) but that is probably because of lack of market right
now.  I know of two spiders for NEXTSTEP, though neither is
publically available.  One was the, ahem, "little-known"
WebCrawler.  Under OPENSTEP spiders are so easy to create that
you need have no fear that they will exist for Rhapsody.

What's left?  Mail readers?  Well, if you're into user hostile
there is what I have been using (as well as most of us) which
is Mail.app+procmal.  It is an amazingly powerful combo.  If
procmail is too nasty for you, there were specific NEXTSTEP apps
for that call MailBaCK and LightMail.  I think the former still
exists, and the latter was swallowed up by ITS.  The latter was
a work of art, though.  (Cheers, Bill!  :-)  )  Imagine an
InterfaceBuilder for mail routing and scripting that can do
procmail sorts of things.  Then you have Mail.app or Eloquent.app,
or Mynah.app, or... so there are plenty of email readers out
there.  There are at least four news readers.  There are three
decent web browsers I can think of.  It isn't as if we don't
have choices, it isn't as if there aren't any apps, and, hey,
these apps _are_ feature rich.


The reason you don't get "answers" is, as mmalcolm suggested,
your moving goalpost manouveur.  When we answer your question,
you either ignore it or you say "that's not what I wanted" and
proceed to ask a new question.  We can't answer a question
before it is asked.  Because your questioning method is, by its
very nature, impossible to answer completely, we've pretty much
thrown our hands in the air and said, "why don't you just try
it for yourself, then."  Try it and see if this stuff isn't
there.  It all works fine for us, so it is damn irritating to
have you tell us it isn't.

> [...] Apple has bought a company with very little chance of
> bringing it into the mainstream.
> 
> Happy niche-playing!

And this is why you are an *sshole.

This is bullsh** pure and simple.  FUD for the sake of making
waves--non-productive, false, and sensational.  Please keep this
pedantic whining out of comp.sys.next.programmer and go play in
.advocacy, where you fit right in.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 01:04:35 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) wrote:
> Thanks for the insults, and thanks most of all for side-stepping
> the specific questions. I now realize, from your answers and from
> the lack of answers to my questions about automatic Web agents,
> html email clients, etc., and from the fact that most of you
> don't even understand the features I've described (e.g., don't
> understand the need of a SOHO user with a dial-up Internet
> connection and multiple providers), that Apple has bought a
> company with very little chance of bringing it into the mainstream.

Try these for lighthouse:
http://wof.lighthouse.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/FAQServer
http://www.lighthouse.com/ProductInfo/Academic.html

News apps:
Radical News   http://www.radical.com/
HNNews    http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~hnalgae/
NewsFlash    http://www.wolfware.com

Alexandra is for free (don't know if there is a web address for info)
Then there is also, Kiwi, Eloquent, NewsGrazer, NewsBase (pretty sure it 
does MIME)...and likely others I'm not aware of.  If anyone knows of 
addresses to the above news apps that I didn't have addresses to...please 
post them...  
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...

monoChrome, Inc.          | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer   | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School       | Jag talar inte svenska )^>  %^)  =^)
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From: zizi zhao 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 19:09:53 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 35
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> 
> dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) wrote:
> > mmalcolm crawford  said:
> 
> > >To turn your question around: what advantages does Office97 offer over
> > >numerous applications NEXTSTEP offers which adequately cover the same
> > >functionality?
> >
> > I don't know, because you haven't told me anything about those
> > applications. I'm sure there are some very good ones, but when I ask
> > for specifics, both this time and a couple of months ago, NeXTSteppers
> > seem reluctant to present any of the details.
> 
> Because we don't have the time or inclination to write up laundry lists of
> features which you could dig up yourself if you were to take the time to do a
> little research yourself.  You can't expect us to spoon feed you
> *everything*, for crying out loud!  (That can also be read:  "We're just as
> lazy as you are.")
> 
> Try one of these:
> 
> http://www.stone.com
> http://www.lighthouse.com/ProductInfo/Academic.html
> 
> for starters.  (There are many more, someone else can make a list.  I'm
> feeling lazy right now.)  Or email the company for more info about the apps.
> These companies make the apps, so why not see what they claim for their apps?
> Last time I was there there were screen shots and feature laundry lists for
> everything.
> 

also try

http://www2.stepwise.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/Stepwise/ISVs.woa
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 03 Mar 1997 17:03:03 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Lines: 18
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dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) writes:

> I now realize, from your answers and from the lack of answers to my
> questions about automatic Web agents, html email clients, etc., and
> from the fact that most of you don't even understand the features
> I've described [...] that Apple has bought a company with very
> little chance of bringing it into the mainstream.

That's right, John.  Because you can't do a capable job of describing
what you want, and because some random person on the net not even
affiliated with Apple or NeXT flamed you, Apple is doomed.

Your logic leaves me (and I'm sure others) awestruck.

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 3 Mar 1997 23:05:58 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 42
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dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) wrote:
> mmalcolm crawford  said:

> >To turn your question around: what advantages does Office97 offer over 
> >numerous applications NEXTSTEP offers which adequately cover the same 
> >functionality?
> 
> I don't know, because you haven't told me anything about those
> applications. I'm sure there are some very good ones, but when I ask
> for specifics, both this time and a couple of months ago, NeXTSteppers
> seem reluctant to present any of the details.

Because we don't have the time or inclination to write up laundry lists of 
features which you could dig up yourself if you were to take the time to do a 
little research yourself.  You can't expect us to spoon feed you 
*everything*, for crying out loud!  (That can also be read:  "We're just as 
lazy as you are.")

Try one of these:

http://www.stone.com
http://www.lighthouse.com/ProductInfo/Academic.html

for starters.  (There are many more, someone else can make a list.  I'm 
feeling lazy right now.)  Or email the company for more info about the apps.  
These companies make the apps, so why not see what they claim for their apps?  
Last time I was there there were screen shots and feature laundry lists for 
everything.

After you do your own research, ask us if the apps live up to what the 
developer's claims.  Or tell us what you think the weak areas are.  Those of 
us using these apps are quite happy with them.  Tell us why we should be 
missing MS Office, since we're quite happy with what we have and don't 
exactly find ourselves pining for Office...

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: MiscTableMatrix Palette !!
Date: 28 Feb 1997 14:55:34 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5f6rl6$nb4@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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Hi all,

I have the MiscKit 2.0.2 version.

I try to compile the few available palettes ....
But i just manage to compile the MiscSwitchView palette !

Does someone manage to compile the MiscTabMatrix palette under OpenStep 4.1 ??
When i try to compile MiscTabMatrix, i have an error like NEXT_ROOT = variable undefined !!!
 
If yes, i am interessting to get a good version 

thanks for your help

YANNICK


-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: amando@gcomm.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: DEBUGGER INFO NEEDED
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:05:02 +0200
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
Message-ID: <3316E60E.5BCC@gcomm.com>
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I am a newbie in the nextstep programming enviroment and I need to learn
a bit more about Next's GDB. The info offered by Next is very
complicated for me, since I am just beginning. Could anybody please tell
me where can I find more info or a book that explains with more detail
GDB and the art of debugging programs? I will thank you very much all
the info...

TIA
Amando Blasco
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From: amando@gcomm.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: objective c
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 16:13:55 +0200
Organization: CompuServe Incorporated
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melissab@shamu.mtn.ncahec.org wrote:
> 
> I am a student researching object oriented languages, specifically
> objective c.  I need some input from real world users!  How you use
> objective c , which compiler, your opinion of the languages
> (like,dislike) , ease of use, and what application you are using it for
> etc...Per your permission I will use your name and affiliation in my
> paper plus your opinion of the product.  Much thanks in advance! Melissa
> Boring

Hi Melissa! I am learning about Objetive C (and English :) too. I found
an electronic book titled "NextStep Advantage" that covers from the
fundamentals of OOP to the Objetive-C and details about the usefull
Classes available in the nextstep enviroment. NeXT also has written an
Objetive-C book that is included inside NeXT's computers that explains
all the Objetive-C set of commands and an introduction of the OOP. In
www.stepwise.com you can also find a lists of books published that might
help to learn this art!

I hope this will help you!
Amando Blasco
amando@gcomm.com
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From: "Andrew McPherson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 4 Mar 97 02:02:55 GMT
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Scott Hess  wrote in article
...
> In article <5ejgug$oij@usenet.rpi.edu>,
> 	Garance A Drosehn  writes:
>    shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote (somewhere towards the end...):
 
> Furthermore, my experience indicates that files with more than one
> fork generally tend to want an arbitrary number of forks.  The number
> of files with exactly two forks would be in a very small minority.
> Granted, you can add a structured file format of some sort which
> overlays file structure to allow condensing multiple forks into fewer
> forks.  But if you're going to do that, why stop at two forks?  Why
> not condense it all the way down to one fork?

Because you'll end up with the windoze 95/NT curse, you'd have to rely on a
database of file associations...
And guess what happens if the database gets corrupted?
(mac) You rebuild the desktop file, and all those associations remain in
order.
(DOS-box) Well, you just have to jump in and do a text-edit on the database
yourself, until you've corrected it your files don't know what program to
use...

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From: edream@mailbag.com (Edward K. Ream)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: More OpenStep Questions
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:01:59 -0600
Organization: Berbee Information Networks Corporation
Lines: 49
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: msn-4-14.binc.net

Hello again,

Now that we are all up to speed on the difference between
OPENSTEP and OpenStep :-) I'd like to ask the questions
that I _really_ meant to ask!

1.  Are the Foundation Toolkit and App Toolkit an integral
part of the Next OS?  That is, are they part of the "official"
API's of the OS?  Or are they simply libraries supplied
by compiler vendors?  Or maybe something in between?

Comment:  I'm trying to understand what, exactly,
the Mac "Yellow Box" will contain.

2.  Are Objective-C objects an integral part of the Next OS?
That is, do the OS API's imply a specific structure for objects
(for instance, the isa pointer)?  If so, then
a) do all C++ compilers ultimately produce objective C calls?
b) is there a public ABI (app binary interface) that describes
this interface?

Comment:  I'm trying to understand what the fundamental
performance characteristics of the Yellow Box will be.

3.  Is it possible to call objective-c methods from C code?
Is this the purpose of objc_sendm?   If it is possible,
how easy is it for the C code to use the results?
(The objective-C headers will not, e.g., contain an explicit
reference to the isa pointer, so how could C code use
those headers?)

Comment 1:  I'm trying to understand the process of porting C code
(or C++ code) to an objective-C world.  If we are stuck with
only calls _from_ objective-C to C, then porting code would
probably involve using an (old) C layer below a new objective-C layer,
and the C layer could _not_ call code in the higher layer.

Comment 2: This kind of port could be very significant in merging
Mac OS 7.x and Copeland code into the Next OS code.

Cheers,
Edward
Edward

-- 
Edward K. Ream
(608) 231-0766
edream@mailbag.com
Owner, Sherlock Software
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From: gandreas@mirage.skypoint.com (Glenn Andreas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 09:10:25 -0600
Organization: GAndreas Software
Lines: 20
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In article ,
tkimpton@mail2.maned.com (Thomas R. Kimpton) wrote:

> Perhaps I've missed someone mentioning this, but: The only
> place where the file *name* (which is how a file is referenced
> in an open call) is associated with an inode, is the directory
> structure(entry).

Cool idea, but this doesn't quite work, since it fails for hard-links
(i.e., two different directory entries point to the same i-node). 
However, since Mac alias are more like soft-links than hard links, this
might not be an issue, though there are probably some stuff in the unix
layer that pretty much assumes that hard links work "correctly".

-- 
Glenn Andreas                                 Author of Macintosh games:
gandreas@skypoint.com                               Theldrow 2.3
http://www.skypoint.com/members/gandreas            Blobbo 1.0.2
ftp://ftp.skypoint.com/pub/members/g/gandreas
Unsolicited bulk email will be proofread for a US$500/k, min $1000
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From: Mircea Oancea 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ANNOUNCE libFoundation-0.7
Date: 28 Feb 1997 01:31:59 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
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Hi to all Objective-C programmers,

We are pleased to announce you the availability of libFoundation, a
free and almost complete implementation of Foundation Kit as defined
in the OpenStep specifications, plus more classes that come with the
newest releases of OpenStep 4.x. It has completely or almost
completely implemented the following classes: 

NSObject
NSString, NSMutable
NSArray, NSMutableArray
NSDictionary, NSMutableDictionary
NSSet, NSMutableSet
NSData, NSMutableData
NSValue, NSNumber
NSDate, NSCalendarDate, NSTimeZone
NSCharacterSet
NSEnumerator
NSAutoreleasePool
NSException
NSNotification, NSNotificationCenter
NSCoder, NSArchiver, NSUnarchiver
NSScanner
NSInvocation, NSMethodSignature
NSFileManager
NSBundle
NSProcessInfo
NSAccount
NSDistributedLock
NSPosixFileDescriptor
NSTimer
NSRunLoop
NSThread
NSUserDefaults

Some extensions to the OpenStep specification are also present. They
include an extended exception handling mechanism, a garbage collector
based on reference counting and a printf-like formatting class. The
exception handling mechanism is very similar with those found in Java
and C++ and requires support for nested functions from the compiler.
The garbage collector adds the benefits of automatic garbage
collecting to the OpenStep programs and it is fully integrated with
OpenStep classes. The printf-like formatting class is a general
purpose class that can be used to do various operations that require
parsing of format strings like in printf(). This class is used for
example to do all the formatting jobs from NSString class in
libFoundation.

These extensions are also available in a separate library for other
OpenStep Foundation implementations; the current supported Foundation
libraries are gnustep-base and the Foundation library in NeXTStep
3.3. Support for 4.x OpenStep Foundation library is planned.

The library requires the 2.7.2.1 GNU Objective-C compiler with the
Objective-C patches from Scott Christley .
On NeXTStep machines the library can also be compiled with NeXT
Objective-C runtime besides the GNU runtime. 

The library was ported on the following platforms:

- m68k-next-nextstep3
- i386-next-nextstep3
- i386-unknown-linux

Preliminary support has been done for Sparc Solaris 2.4 and HPUX 9.x.
The library also runs with GNU runtime on OpenStep 4.x for Mach with
the GNU compiler (not the native one).

Distributed Objects and Unicode support in NSString are planned. 

You can download the source code from

> ftp://ftp.logicnet.ro:/pub/users/ovidiu/libFoundation-0.7.tgz
> 
ftp://koala.NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE:/pub/next/OpenStep/GNUstep/Sources/libFoun
dation-0.7.tgz
> ftp://ftp.net-community.com/pub/Free/libFoundation-0.7.tgz


Happy hacking,

Ovidiu Predescu 
Mircea Oancea 

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From: jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff)
Subject: Q:Reporting tool
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: nexus
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@oic.de
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Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:30:35 GMT
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Hi,

I'm looking for reporting tools, but I don't know which report writers are  
available for OPENSTEP 4.x/Mach and EOF? Can someone give me an advice which  
tools are available (and usable)?

Thank you in advance,

	Juergen Moellenhoff
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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 4 Mar 1997 04:38:20 GMT
Organization: mother.com Internet Services
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FYI, I got the following information back from Apple regarding getting
access to the Rhapsody Developers Release:

------------------------
To receive the Rhapsody Developer Release you need to join the Apple 
Developer Program  and make sure all the forms you 
need to receive prototype software are complete, in order to receive 
developer releases. The Apple Developer mailings only have released 
software in them, not developer releases or other prototype software.
------------------------

I found additional information at
	http://17.126.23.20/dev/macdevprogram.html

Cheers,

Todd

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From: morbius@killspam.net (Morbius)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 21:02:10 -0800
Organization: Mind's I Inc.
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In article <5ffsce$1do$4@news.xmission.com>, don@globalobjects.com wrote:

> dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) wrote:
> > I now realize, from your answers and from the lack
> > of answers to my questions [...]
> 
> We don't even pay attention to our own *ssholes except when
> cleaning up after certain business...so why should we pay
> attention to some other *sshole?

{DELETED}

> > [...] Apple has bought a company with very little chance of
> > bringing it into the mainstream.
> > 
> > Happy niche-playing!
> 
> And this is why you are an *sshole.
> 
> This is bullsh** pure and simple.  FUD for the sake of making
> waves--non-productive, false, and sensational.  Please keep this
> pedantic whining out of comp.sys.next.programmer and go play in
> .advocacy, where you fit right in.


  You, sir, have just squashed a young and innocent mind, in search of
knowledge. He was merely making an innocent inquiry and you had to slap
him down...:) Who knows what will happen now. You might have given him a
complex...;)

Morbius

-- 
"Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck!..."  Curly

 e-mail: morbius@sure.net
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon,  3 Mar 1997 02:52:30 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 3-Mar-97 Re: Nice
interview with Amelio by John De Hoog@experts.com 
> >You're right.  There are fewer applications available, but they tend to
> >work better and interoperate better than what you get with other systems.
>  
> That's marvelously vague, so I guess we'll have to take your word for
> it.

Nope-- please feel free to ask for someone to give you a demo of
NEXTSTEP.  If you're anywhere near Pittsburgh, PA, I'll be happy to show
you what I mean.
  
>>> There are apparently no offline Web browsers like Tierra Highlights,
>>
>> An "offline Web browser" is an oxymoron.  It's also IMHO a really stupid
>> idea, and the lack of such is no loss.
>  
> Not at all.

You mean I'm not free to have the opinion that I only want to browse the
web when I actually have my network connection up?

> You've just given the typical "when in a corner, say you
> don't really care" response. See my reply to Ken Lui in this thread.

It's known as making a decision that certain so-called functionality is
worthless for any practical usage.  In particular, I think off-line web
browsers are useless.  If you don't, that's your concern.

You aren't going to convince me that NEXTSTEP's lack of offline web
browsers has any importance whatsoever.  As I already said, you can get
the functionality of offline web browsing by setting up a Harvest cache.

>>> no offline news readers like Forte Agent, 
>>
>> You can read news offline easily enough by setting up a local caching
>> newsserver.  There's a precompiled "PersonalINN" package on the NeXT FTP
>> archives which will let you read news offline.
>  
> Like I said, no offline news readers like Forte Agent.

If you refuse to consider any alternatives besides Forte Agent as valid,
you're right.  Forte Agent does not exist for NEXTSTEP.

However, you can get the functionality offered by an offline news reader
which is what you claimed did not exist in the section above quoted by
'>>>'.

>>> and no email clients of the caliber of Becky! Internet Mail 1.20.
>>
>> Never heard of it.  Most people seem pretty happy with Mail.app, but
> >there are other GUI news/mail readers available, like Eloquent.  What
> >did you want to do with email that Mail.app is inadequate for?
>  
> Thanks for asking. Let me take advantage of my offline news reader to
> quote from a couple of other threads in another group on this issue.
>  
> ======= [quote]
>  
> Becky! Internet Mail is a multimedia mail client that supports sound
> and html.
>  
> For example, I use it in place of Netscape Navigator to receive the
> Netscape Inbox Direct mailings, which show up as html (Java images and
> all) in the message pane.

I don't know of any email clients for NEXTSTEP which support HTML.  Of
course, NeXT's Mail.app supports an RTF(D) format that allows more
precise message formatting and layout than HTML does, since HTML is a
markup language and RTF(D) and/or EPS attachments allow you to have
precise control over what is displayed.

>>> The equivalent of Office 97 for NeXT does not exist.
>>
>> Sure it does.  Lighthouse offers an office suite and a whole range of
>> productivity applications-- Diagram, Concurrence, OmniWeb, OmniWrite,
>> Quantrix, WetPaint, TaskMaster, etc.  .
>
> Now let my turn your question around. What advantages does the
> Lighthouse suite offer over Office 97?

It wasn't written by Microsoft, and it runs under NEXTSTEP.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 03:49:30 GMT
Organization: mother.com Internet Services
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> What's a SOHO user?

Small Office, Home Office.

Just to weigh in (I am a NeXT, Mac, and NT user), I think the NEXTSTEP (an
by extension OpenStep) is a wonderful environment, but it does not have the
breadth and depth of applications/capabilities that the Mac or Windows
platforms do.

First, it is largely a matter of numbers.  For years I used Jason's
NewsGrazer on my NeXTstation.  I thought it was great, but it could use
additional features and/or capabilities.  Indeed, Jason (sp?) was planning
on a "Pro" version, but shelved it for various reasons.  Since then, there
have been several other news readers, and I even wrote my own prototype
with features I thought were important (but which I am sure many others
would think were silly).

When Rhapsody (and OpenStep in general) becomes available on millions of
machines, there will be suddenly thousands of users with various needs
which might seem silly to me (but not to them).  When this happens, I bet
there will be an explosion of new programs with different features,
capabilities, and approaches to doing something as basic as "reading news".

Second, I suspect many applications I use on my NeXT will NOT be available
on Rhapsody.  Many NeXT programs are NEXTSTEP and not OpenStep compliant. 
Work will have to be done to move these applications to Rhapsody -- it will
be more work than a simple "recompile".  Unfortunately, many of the
companies and original programmers of these programs are no longer around.

Third, I do not have a lot of confidence that the NEXTSTEP Lighthouse
applications will make it over to Rhapsody.  Since Sun purchased
Lighthouse, Lighthouse's wonderful suite of NEXTSTEP applications have been
essentially buried.  To understand my concern, try finding these
applications from Lighthouse's home page, www.lighthouse.com.  :-(

Fourth, in no way, shape, or form do I want developers (Mac or otherwise)
to think Rhapsody will already have all the applications users will ever
need.  I want the thousands of Mac developers to start bringing their
creative imaginations and their talents to the OpenStep environment.

Well, those are my opinions.  Cheers,

Todd

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 05:48:56 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <5fgd48$1do$6@news.xmission.com>
References: <01bc25fa$c628b6e0$5c2168cf@test1> <5fa84n$l1a@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <5fa9bm$pv6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3318b3b1.259720578@library.airnews.net> <5fbm7o$18u@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <331b6372.304713214@library.airnews.net>  <331b125f.1680238@library.airnews.net> <5ff513$ini@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <331b4654.45811233@library.airnews.net> <5ffmvs$ku3$1@darla.visi.com> <331b6a1a.54969011@library.airnews.net> <5ffsce$1do$4@news.xmission.com> 
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morbius@killspam.net (Morbius) wrote:
>   You, sir, have just squashed a young and innocent mind,
> in search of knowledge.  He was merely making an innocent
> inquiry and you had to slap him down...:)

The "innocent" part is, IMHO debatable.  :-)

If he wanted knowledge, his questioning should be more honest
and less sensationalistic.  The moving goal post technique is
particularly irritating, but even claiming falsely OPENSTEP
lacks certain functionality _after_ counter examples have been
given smacks of FUD--or a really thick skull.

> Who knows what will happen now. You might have given him a
> complex...;)

Well, it is probably a good moment to say that I shouldn't
have vented that way in public--it isn't my normal course
of action.  (The only excuse I've got is that it's been a
bad day...and I didn't have time to do my normal venting
activity, which is to pound the heck out of my piano. :-)  )

I think Todd's post is worth noting, too, though.  What we
know about apps on NEXTSTEP will probably not at all be true
for Rhapsody.  There will be some of the same apps, of course,
but there will be a lot of new apps, too.  I hope a lot of
the old ones survive, because I like them, but if something
equally as elegant and equally as functional appears to
replace ones that die, I won't shed tears.  So I guess the
whole thread really doesn't matter anyway, given how much the
landscape is likely to change in the future.

The conclusions that I draw follow this sort of thought:

1.  Good apps exist for NEXTSTEP--and don't leave me wanting.

2.  They were put together rapidly by small teams and there's
    an astounding variety given the small size of the market.

3.  NEXTSTEP's developer environment was a catalyst toward
    creating all the productivity tools that are needed.

4.  OPENSTEP is better than NEXTSTEP, and Rhapsody is expected
    to be better yet.

5.  As long as Apple doesn't botch it, the same catalyst should
    exist, meaning that the needed apps will appear on Rhapsody.
    Some may be ported NeXT apps, many will be completely new.

6.  Some may be available almost as soon as DR1, thanks to ported
    NEXTSTEP apps or Mac folks grabbing and using OPENSTEP now.

7.  Based on past history (#2) by the time the public release is
    out, there should be plenty of apps for Rhapsody...with more
    to come as time passes.

Yeah, much of that isn't a sure thing, but looking at the past
and extrapolating the trends leads me to believe that most of us
will be quite happy with Rhapsody and the apps available for it.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Ian Joyner 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 14:03:35 +1000
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(Nathan, please read you personal mail before responding to this.)

This exchange starts out a little rough, but it gets better on
the way down. So I gave Nathan the benefit of my thoughts in response
to his, and actually it is worth reading. This thread has become
interesting
again.

Thank you Nathan...

Nathan Urban wrote:
> 
> In article <331A0AD3.A0D@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote:
> 
> > Let's be scientific about this: that is see if the theory makes sense,
> > and then if observations done in experiments support the theory.
> 
> Okay, and while you're at it, be sure to give plenty of "observations"
> without supporting or opposing references.

You will find references in there...

> > 2) Applications programming and maintenance is greatly simplified, reducing
> > cost, the whole point of software engineering research.
> 
> At the expense of the operating system making assumptions about how to
> handle errors that are potentially inappropriate to the application at
> hand.

This is not a case of the OS making assumptions. It is also not what
I said, you are extrapolating inappropriately. But we are being very
general here...
Read further down in my previous post, and you will realise that I 
allow for the fact that if an application wants to handle an exception 
in its own way, then there are mechanisms for it to do that.

> > 3) OBSERVATION: operations interface is consistent making operations
> > considerably easier. Operators know what to do, even if they are not
> > familiar with an application. Another observation is that in
> > fact you need less operators to run these systems.
> 
> Give specific examples, especially of ones where operators know what to do
> without being familiar with an application, where they would also _not_
> know what to do with a similar unfamiliar application on a system such
> as Unix.

I have given specific examples... more follow.

> > [Deadlock stuff]
> 
> I will grant that limiting application processes and giving well-defined
> restricted actions to the OS will reduce deadlock.  I also don't think
> that it's worth the restrictions being imposed, for anything but the
> utmost of high reliability systems.  I've been using Unix for nearly 8
> years now and can count the instances which the machine _might_ have
> deadlocked (I don't know for sure) on the fingers of one hand.  Most
> operating systems don't bother trying to produce deadlock-free systems,
> for that reason.

Correct. Deadlock doesn't happen much in practice.
Explain why Chuck Swiger made such a huge issue of it?
In fact it is impossible to prevent deadlock up front, where 
processes grab two or more common resources. There are ways
to code to minimise the possibility, and then to detect it.
There is simply nothing in what I have suggested that increases
the potential for deadlock, and as you agree it will likely
lessen the potential :-)

> > 5) CONCURRENCY: THEORY: processes can run until some resource they
> > depend on is not available because it is locked, eg., being produced
> > by another process. In general, it is undesirable for concurrent
> > operations to be non-deterministic.
> 
> > The process scheduler will move processes from the waiting entries
> > list to the ready queue when the waited on resource becomes available,
> > without operator intervention. For the resource to become available
> > might require operator intervention, but it could also be automatic from
> > some other process
> > [...]
> > However, this can occur in any system
> > and is independent of the original suggestion, where management of the
> > resources is moved out of the application process set.
> 
> I'm not sure we're clear on what the original suggestion I was objecting
> to was. I wasn't objecting to having the OS handle management of
> resources.  I was objecting to the OS trying to handle error conditions
> that the application should really handle itself, and especially the
> idea of operating systems _requiring_ user intervention in order to
> handle errors.

This does not contradict what I said. Clearly the application should
handle application exceptions. There will then be a class of error
that the OS handles, without operator or engineer interaction. But there
is that class that _requires_ operator handling. I think we have seen
enough examples of those: they occur on any system! However, if you
read my comments on concurrency carefully, you will realise that
many conditions can arise where a process becomes blocked on waiting
for some resource, like a file, to be made available. In the concurrent
world, this should not be handed back to the process as an exception,
but handled by the OS scheduler. If the file is produced automatically,
then the blocked process will become ready without human intervention.
However, human intervention might be required in order to start the
process that will produce the file. If a production system relies on
this kind of interaction, it is not a good thing, but it is the
nature of highly concurrent systems.

Example:
This is an example where things are operationally easier, because the
system is more forgiving. Most systems require an operator to do
'step 1, wait to complete, step 2, wait to complete....' But in a
system where processes will automatically wait for resources, the
operator can run things in any order. If they forget the steps,
the system will prompt them for missing resources. Hence the system
becomes self documenting, and you do not rely on some written process
that some process officer/quality wally insists should be typed
up and three hole punched and put in a binder ;-). Once an operator
does this a few times, they will soon get the message to write a
job to do it automatically (work flow language or WFL on the systems 
in consideration, and no you don't need a JCL or shell script expert,
the
syntax is quite natural).
end example;

In fact, this all started in the comp.lang.eiffel newsgroup where we
talked about exception raising vs wait conditions. In a non-concurrent
process, no other process will produce the desired conditions expressed
in a predicate, so an exception is raised. In a concurrent system
though,
a predicate can mean that the process must wait for the condition to
be satisfied. Now Bertrand Meyer said it took him six months to actually
like this idea, so I guess I can understand the shock waves that have
arisen in this group.

The point is that exception handling is different in concurrent
situations.
If a process becomes blocked on a condition, then it might need human
intervention in order to realise the condition can never be fulfilled,
and in that case to cause an exception (maybe by termination) to really
be handed back to the process. It is better for system resilience for
an OS to request permission to do this, rather than just go ahead and
do it, as the OS should not "assume" what to do in these abnormal
situations. (Abnormal situations being outside the set of situations
which are the intersection of the set of situations that the application
and the set of situations that the OS have been written to handle.)

>  And especially, a fixed kind of user intervention, such
> as a system-standard dialog box.

No, you are designing implementations here that I never suggested,
except maybe as an example of one of many ways.
It might be a dialog box, but this would not be very convenient for
large systems. In large systems this is more likely a list of
processes currently blocked, what the condition is, and if and how
the operator can help out. Remember this is for coarse grained
resources.

>  You think this is a good thing because
> it promotes consistency.  I think it limits the application's choice in
> how to handle errors.

Actually it doesn't limit the applications choice in any way: as I said
the application can still choose from the
entire range of exceptions that it wants to handle. The only
consideration
that does limit the applications choice is security considerations. But
otherwise the applications programmer is not forced to handle the
bewlidering number of exceptions that could arise. In fact most
operating systems do precisely this.

> > 7) CORRECTNESS: THEORY: "Correctness is the ability of software
> > products to exactly perform their tasks, as defined by the
> > requirements and the specification." Bertrand Meyer Object-Oriented
> > Software Construction (first edition) (2nd edition will be available
> > any time now.)
> 
> > OBSERVATION: The larger and more complex an application is, the more
> > likely it is to fail the correctness criteria. Having applications
> > programmers code for a plethora of exceptions that they should not
> > have to worry about, because they belong to the environment,
> > increases the risk that failure will occur in the application.
> 
> I agree that programmers should have a stock of basic error-handling
> machines from which to draw, I don't like coding exception handlers any
> more than you do, but I think that applications programmers should have
> the choice of handling errors in any way they desire, including ignoring
> them.  This does not preclude the possibility of having a library of
> error handlers.

Good, we agree here. And I actually think we are having a de Bono
exchange
rather than a Socratic one, as we have arrived at the same point!

> > 8) ROBUSTNESS: THEORY: "Robustness is the ability of software systems
> > to function even in abnormal conditions." Also OOSC 1st ed. In my
> > suggestion, abnormal conditions are filtered from applications
> > by the resource managers. This does not remove the possibility that
> > an application may opt to handle specific exceptions, subject of
> > course to security constraints.
> 
> If you want the OS to handle more exceptions by default, that's fine.

Thank you.

> But if the OS is going to be doing that sort of thing, it needs
> to follow a policy of _minimal_ intervention, rather than maximal.

Well, the whole thing needs analyzing to work out what the OS
should do, and what applications should do. If you are writing systems
level programs, games, real-time systems, debuggers (Charles' pride and
joy) then sure you want to handle more exceptions. Now the way this
is done on the machines I am talking about is that the application
enables exceptions with an ON statement, for example:

ON DIVIDEBYZERO
ON ANYFAULT   -- gets anything

etc, and attaches the exception to an interrupt handler, which is also
in the
application.

This way the OS is told exactly what to do. As you say just below, the
"OS does not always know best." (In fact if it did there would be no
need for applications programming at all.)

> Throwing up an interactive dialog box every time a file cannot be found
> can be _wildly_ inappropriate for many applications.

In fact that is not the way that it happens. Again, you have used as an 
example a dialog box. That interface as I have said is most probably
not appropriate. Rather, the process is
put in the waiting entries. You should also remove emotive adverbs from
your posts. I would rephrase that as "can be inappropriate for a certain
class of applications," which I agree with.

>  The OS does _not_
> "always know best".

True, and the application tells the OS where the application knows best.
However, if I am paying good money for an OS, I do expect it to do
its contracted job.

>  Rather than forcing programmers to override the OS's
> exception hanlding constantly (which is the whole reason you purport to
> like this scheme, as it's supposed to keep the programmer from constantly
> worrying about exceptional conditions), the OS should take the minimum
> action necessary to prevent fatal errors, and allow the application to
> layer on additional error handling if desired.

"Fatal errors" are by definition those that will terminate a process.
The OS is contracted to provide a consistent environment for
applications
to run in. Thus the OS should do its utmost to shield applications
from environmental failures, not its "minimum". If the OS cannot
deal with certain failures then in order to ensure system resilience,
it should enlist the help of the system operators. The OS doing the
minimum does not sound like it is providing a very robust system,
does it? If the applications programmer 'expects' to see certain
exceptions, they will have told the OS to ignore them, and pass them
back to the application.

You will find this might be a different programming paradigm
to what you are used to. But it vastly simplifies applications
development.
For myself, I am a systems programmer, and it is my job to provide
this kind of systematic support for the applications that will run on
top of my software. In that case if I am to write good "middleware",
then I should handle exceptions that have to do with the resources that
I manage. It is sloppy design to hand these back to my caller.

> I'm not against handling exceptions on a global, OS-wide level.  I just
> think that the OS should attempt to handle exceptions by default in a
> minimal way that is appropriate for all processes (which often means
> very little exception handling, just enough to keep a process from
> dying), and allow application processes to register their own exception
> handlers (including null handlers), subject to OS security constraints,
> etc. as you say.

I think your use of the term minimal is an inappropriate heuristic,
as it is too vague:
The OS should do what the OS should do, and the application what the
application should do. Then you can have design-by-contract over
OS interfaces.

>  And especially, an OS should never require user
> intervention, except in cases where it _only_ makes sense for a user to
> make a decision.

Correct, and that can be quite a large number of exceptions.
That is what I am saying, give the user/operator conditions to 
handle where it makes sense. For example "Disk full" I do not want
the OS to start deleting files, nor an application. I want the choice.
However, if you don't want a stop, you might have an automatic handler,
which the OS starts up to remove known temporary files, or perhaps start
an archive to tape. In this case the OS handles the exception. Some OSs
provide automatic system assistents in the form of scripts:

ON DISKFULL RUN TEMP_FILE_DELETER;

If there is no such handling of the disk full condition, ask the
operator,
don't hand it back as an exception to the program. That is the very
opposite of robust.

>  The only example I can think of is an error that is
> known to be in response to a user-invoked action (as opposed to a
> programmatically invoked one), where the error affects the operation of
> the entire system.

OK, but I have shown that in order to automate actions, you need to do
some programming. Let's hope that everything that is done on a
computer is in response to some user-invoked action. A typical
example is that a batch program is invoked by an operator/user.
If the program finds a file missing, then it might be because the
operator has forgotten this step in the process, and will be
prompted (not necessarily via a dialog box!) to make the file
present. This is definately in response to a user-invoked action.

This is a matter of the user being in control of the computer,
not the computer in control of the user. People are the important
resource. Computers are just lumps of glorified sand! (Somewhat
rephrased from the cover of a recent ACM Computing Reviews).

>  For example, if the user initiated a reboot from
> the console, and something went wrong, _then_ it would be appropriate to
> send a dialog to the console requesting intervention.  But in precious
> few other cases is requiring human intervention a universally
> appropriate action.

And since you say "universally appropriate action," I don't disagree.
But that is never what I said. What I have been saying is give the 
user/operator the chance to intervene "when appropriate." 
This is particularly important in concurrent, mission critical systems 
that must provide 24x365 operations.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
> nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you Nathan. I hope that clears up some of the confusion. I know
it's a different paradigm to Unix, but is that a bad thing?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joyner       | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are
Internet email:  |  for a kingdom, the gentler       | personal and are
i.joyner@acm.org |  gamester is the soonest winner"  | not Unisys
                 |       William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: crobato@kuentos.guam.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 07:20:52 GMT
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In <331b4654.45811233@library.airnews.net>, dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) writes:
>mmalcolm crawford  said:
>
>>On 03/03/97, John De Hoog wrote:
>>> Like I said, no offline news readers like Forte Agent.
>>>
>>Wrong: HHNews.app allows you to read news offline.
>
>That does not make it the equal of Forte Agent. Tell me what else it
>can do. How does it handle multi-part binaries? Does it have threaded
>viewing? Filtering? What kind of email support? In other words, to
>what extent have they gone beyond the bare-bones Unix tool to provide
>a truly convenient offline reader?

I have Agent, but I could have gone and explored it more if I didn't 
hate that interface.  I can't stand a three panel design with windows 
that are limited by the larger application window, and I can't freely 
float my editing and reading windows and be free to resize them 
independently of each other.  What's the use of all these features if it
does not make it easier for me to read and to edit?

Rgds,

Chris

Famous People on the Day Windows 95 is Launched---
Neil Armstrong---"One Small Fortune for Bill Gates, 
One Giant Leap backward for Mankind."
President Roosevelt---"This date shall live in infamy."
*** crobato@kuentos.guam.net *** TKS for the Contributions.

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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 01:42:25 GMT
Organization: Experts, Inc.
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John Kheit  said:

>Try these for lighthouse:
>http://wof.lighthouse.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/FAQServer
>http://www.lighthouse.com/ProductInfo/Academic.html
>
>News apps:
>Radical News   http://www.radical.com/
>HNNews    http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~hnalgae/
>NewsFlash    http://www.wolfware.com
>
>Alexandra is for free (don't know if there is a web address for info)
>Then there is also, Kiwi, Eloquent, NewsGrazer, NewsBase (pretty sure it 
>does MIME)...and likely others I'm not aware of.  If anyone knows of 
>addresses to the above news apps that I didn't have addresses to...please 
>post them...  

Thank you, John, for the above information, and my apologies for not
removing the "comp.sys.next.programmer" cross-post from the headers.
(I believe it was put there by mistake by the person who initiated
this thread.)
------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us (Robert Braver)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
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Stephen Peters  said:
>
>You're attempting to state that NeXTSTEP productivity is sorely
>lacking, due to an absence of important applications.  Although an
>offline browser may be important to *you*, it does not appear to be
>important to over 95% of the browsing public.  I, for one, find it
>very hard to get hot and bothered about its absence.  I suspect there
>are several must-have apps on my dock that you would find totally
>unimportant.

Agents that do your Web surfing for you in the background, finding
just the places that have changed since you last looked, are not of
major importance? Take a look at Stroud's or other shareware sites and
you'll find a veritable explosion of applications in this area, from
Net Attache and Teleport Pro to Surfbot, Web Whacker, Tierra
Highlights and many more. 
>
>If we're going to argue about the death of productivity on NeXT boxes,
>can we at least find areas that most people *agree* is important?

I'm sure there are some very productive applications, and very
productive people, on the NeXT platform. But what about breadth of
application support? I prefer a computer platform that has all sorts
of applications for all sorts of needs to one that limits me to a few
choices, many of them getting long in the tooth, and others whose
developers have stopped supporting them.

[Followup-To advocacy groups only]

------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: alexdn@globalobjects.com (Alex Duong Nghiem)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer,misc.jobs.offered,nyc.jobs.contract,nyc.jobs.offered,us.jobs.contract,us.jobs.offered
Subject: Java opps in NYC and CO (client provides training) - C++ opp in Germany
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Folks:

Global Objects specializes in providing quality solutions through object 
and web technologies.

Positions:
	- 10 Java developers - the client will provide the training. You 
need a strong background in C++ (4 or more years), strong OO, good RDBMS 
skills, and a good background in various business domains - the client 
provides the Java training if necessary.

In addition, we need a C++ developer in Germany. This candidate needs 5+ 
years of C++ development experience along with strong OO modeling skills.

All the positions are contract positions and will last 6 months to 1 
year. These positions start immediately.

For immediate consideration, pls email your resume (in RTF or Word 
format) to jobs@globalobjects.com. You can also fax it to 770.457.7333. 
We process electronic resumes on the same day and may take up to a week 
to process faxed resumes.

Thanks,

- Alex -
-- 
************************************************************
* Global Objects Inc.                     770.457.7333 (F) *
* http://www.globalobjects.com      jobs@globalobjects.com *
*                                                          *
* ==>      Specializing in web/object technologies     <== *
* ==>      Play Java games and take our OO quiz !      <== *
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PS Check out our latest Java game at www.globalobjects.com/Winvaders!
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 4 Mar 1997 10:08:19 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5fgsaj$cvr@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
References: <01bc25fa$c628b6e0$5c2168cf@test1> <5fbm7o$18u@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <331b6372.304713214@library.airnews.net>  <5fcq0u$5ih@hpax.cup.hp.com> <331a0cf6.295444@library.airnews.net>
Reply-To: mmalcolm crawford 
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On 03/02/97, John De Hoog wrote:
> In May, I expect to get a dedicated Internet connection to my home.
> Right now, however, I pay $400/month in phone bills for dialup
> service, since all service in Japan is metered. Even with a dedicated
> connection, however, I expect to continue using offline browsers like
> Tierra Highlights and offline readers like Agent. Why? Let me explain,
> since these concepts seem so foreign to NeXTStep users.
> 
> Tierra Highlights is used to monitor lots of Web sites at regular
> intervals (set separately for each site), and to highlight any
> changes at those sites since the last time you looked at them.
>
This feature is included in the Bookmarks of OmniWeb (you are actually 
allowed to create as many bookmarks pages as you want, each with a 
collapsable hierarchical view under separate headings, which makes organising 
your index much easier than on, say, Netscape).

For each individual URL you are able to specify the frequency of checking, 
and an inspector tells you when the URL was last accessed, checked, updated 
etc.

Time to move the goalposts again?

Best wishes,

mmalc.

[follow-ups to advocacy groups]

-- 

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sysnext.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 4 Mar 1997 10:13:13 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5fgsjp$d1h@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
References: <01bc25fa$c628b6e0$5c2168cf@test1> <5fa84n$l1a@r02n01.cac.psu.edu> <5fa9bm$pv6@newsb.netnews.att.com> <3318b3b1.259720578@library.airnews.net> <5fbm7o$18u@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <331b6372.304713214@library.airnews.net> <5feg86$7hd@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <331ad3ed.16524100@library.airnews.net> <5ff472$ies@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <331c487e.46365279@library.airnews.net>
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On 03/03/97, John De Hoog wrote:
> No one has responded to my replies to Chuck and Ken, in which I laid
> out some specific application functionality that, apparently, NeXTStep
> does not offer.
>
Yes they have.

Your original assertions have, I believe, been disproven.
Maybe you'd care to move the goalposts again?

Best wishes,

mmalc.

"If Office97 is the answer, you're asking the wrong question."
mmalc -- 4march97



[followups to advocacy groups]

-- 

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Clipping path around a rotated image from an eps file
Date: 4 Mar 1997 10:28:04 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Lines: 38
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On 03/03/97, Lloyd Goldwasser wrote:

> I do resize the view according to the angle of rotation, so the view
> is large enough to hold the image.  The view itself is within a
> ScrollView, since the whole shebang may be too large for the screen.
>
Ah, I wondered about that...

So your View is actually the document view of a ClipView, which is itself the 
content view of a ScrollView.

There's a note in the docs about ClipViews:

---

rotate:

- rotate:(NXCoord)angle

Disables rotation of the ClipView's coordinate system.  You also should not 
rotate the ClipView's document view, nor should you install a ClipView as a 
subview of a rotated view.  The proper way to rotate objects in the document 
view is to perform the rotation in your document view's drawSelf:: method.  
Returns self.

---

I guess you should call a PSrotate() somewhere instead of using the rotate: 
method?

I hope this helps?

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Finding return type in forward:: ?
Date: 04 Mar 1997 12:36:12 +0100
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology
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In-reply-to: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM's message of 3 Mar 1997 20:17:34 GMT
To: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
X-Newsreader: (ding) Gnus v0.99.18

In article <5ffbku$qul@news.next.com> MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) writes:

   Unfortunately, the return type of the message isn't encoded in the
   selector. Too bad, since that would allow overloading return type in
   objective-C methods, which would be an interesting feature to play
   around with.

It indeed is interesting; it is done in TOM (which, in this context, I
shall call `an Objective-C derivative').  More information is on
http://tom.ics.ele.tue.nl:8080.  --Tiggr
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From: zizi zhao 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 09:06:22 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:194286 comp.sys.next.programmer:23271

John Kheit wrote:
> 
> dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) wrote:
> > Thanks for the insults, and thanks most of all for side-stepping
> > the specific questions. I now realize, from your answers and from
> > the lack of answers to my questions about automatic Web agents,
> > html email clients, etc., and from the fact that most of you
> > don't even understand the features I've described (e.g., don't
> > understand the need of a SOHO user with a dial-up Internet
> > connection and multiple providers), that Apple has bought a
> > company with very little chance of bringing it into the mainstream.
> 
> Try these for lighthouse:
> http://wof.lighthouse.com/cgi-bin/WebObjects/FAQServer
> http://www.lighthouse.com/ProductInfo/Academic.html
> 
> News apps:
> Radical News   http://www.radical.com/
> HNNews    http://soback.kornet.nm.kr/~hnalgae/
> NewsFlash    http://www.wolfware.com
> 
> Alexandra is for free (don't know if there is a web address for info)
> Then there is also, Kiwi, Eloquent, NewsGrazer, NewsBase (pretty sure it
> does MIME)...and likely others I'm not aware of.  If anyone knows of
> addresses to the above news apps that I didn't have addresses to...please
> post them...

I guess  what J.D.H. wanted is a basket containing email, news agent, 
browser, ... like IE and Navigator. However, in NEXTSTEP you have
"SERVICES"
for every App, which links related Apps together. For example, if there
are
 http://www.j.d.h/ in your email messages, clicking the URL, you would
have
Netsurfer or OmniWeb or other broswers to dispaly the web-page for you. 

ZZ
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From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us (Robert Braver)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5fhaaf$9g0@bolivia.earthlink.net>
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Spam cancelled.  Autocancel spam type: NUDECELEBS
Original Subject: Want 10000 nude celebrities!!?
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From: joerd@mail.wsu.edu
Subject: templates
Sender: news@serval.net.wsu.edu (News)
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Hello:
I need some help with templates. Basically, I can't seem to get them to work
when I seperate the definition (in a .h or .cc) file from the construction.
For example, if I have a Main.cc like that below I get link errors with
unrecognized methods Matrix::Print() and Matrix::Set(int num).

I had read in Practical C++ Programming that putting the command
	typedef Matrix MatrixInts;
at the start of Matrix.cc would solve the problem for the GNU compiler but
it doesn't seem to work.

I can make it work by putting the method definitions in the header file
(Matrix.h)

I have put the files below in case someone can tell me how to make this
system work.

Thanks in advance,

Wayne Joerding
Professor of Economics				Ofc: 509-335-6468
Washington State University			FAX: 509-335-4362
PO Box 644741
http://cbeunix.cbe.wsu.edu/~joerd/
Pullman WA 99164				email: joerd@mail.wsu.edu

"Stupidity always has the chance of being a capital offense."

--------------- Main.cc -----------------------
#include 
#include "Matrix.h"

main()
{	cout << "Hello World!\n";
        Matrix aMatrix1;

        aMatrix1.Set(5);
        aMatrix1.Print();

        cout << "Ending Hello World!\n";
	return(0);
}
-------------------------------------------------

--------------- Matrix.h -----------------------
#include	

template < class D> class Matrix
{
protected:
   D cell;

public:
   void Print();

   void Set(D num);
};
-------------------------------------------------

--------------- Matrix.cc -----------------------
#include 
#include "Matrix.h"

typedef Matrix MatrixInts;

template 
void Matrix ::Print(void)
{
   cout << cell << "\n";
}

template 
void Matrix ::Set(D num)
{
   cell = num;
}
-------------------------------------------------
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From: "Georg Tuparev" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 4 Mar 1997 16:43:16 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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In article  kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu ()  
writes:
> The real win being the increased opportunities for cascading
> inlining of small methods, and subsequent elision of needless
> code. 
> 
> This really is important for mathematical libraries. 

I have to disagree here. Being the author of the fastest method for comparing huge  
protein and DNA structures and using for its implementation methods normally used in  
the quantum mechanics and the hydrodynamics I learned that the most important think  
(TM) is to have simple and clean design. And the best way to do it is to use ObjC. 

If you are hoping that static function calls will solve the big unification theory  
you are on a wrong track.

Just my $0.00

-- georg --

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:13:38 +0100
Organization: Syndetics Research
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MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) writes:
 
> David Herren writes
> > OPENSTEP is the abstracted API which runs on multiple OSs. OpenStep is
> > the operating system itself. Confusing, isn't it?
> 
> Apparently confusing enough for you to get that exactly wrong :-)
> 
> OPENSTEP (all caps) is Apple's name for their implementation of the  
> OpenStep specification. More specifically, Apple sells:
>       OPENSTEP for Mach
>       OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT
> Which both implement the OpenStep API on different operating systems.
> OPENSTEP for Mach also includes our Mach operating system for NeXT  
> computers, Intel PC's, and Sparc workstations. 

OK, thank you guys, the picture is becoming a bit clearer now (but not
completely). We have:

- OpenStep = the specification of an abstract API
- OPENSTEP for Mach = an OS
- OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT = the implementation of a framework
           based on the specification of an abstract API

Now, Mach, as I've learned from lurking in the c.s.n.* newsgroups is not
an OS in its own right. Then, "OPENSTEP" (all caps) is both 
   - an OS (on top of the Mach kernel) *and* 
   - a framework-cum-library on top of a host OS? 

This is still going to confuse the market (simple folks like current
Macintosh users/developers, but especially Fortune Magazine editors,
Wall Street Journal reporters, and someone-help-us-over-the-bridge
financial "analists" etc.). Hopefully Apple will deal with this. I think
it's important.

Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More OpenStep Questions
Date: Tue,  4 Mar 1997 13:10:05 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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In-Reply-To: 

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 28-Feb-97 More OpenStep
Questions by Edward K. Ream@mailbag.c 
> 1.  Are the Foundation Toolkit and App Toolkit an integral
> part of the Next OS?  That is, are they part of the "official"
> API's of the OS?

Yes.

[ ... ]
> Comment:  I'm trying to understand what, exactly,
> the Mac "Yellow Box" will contain.

http://www.next.com:80/Pubs/Documents/Download/apple.html

...would be a good place to start.

> 2.  Are Objective-C objects an integral part of the Next OS?

Obj-C is an integral part of NeXT's software.  The kernel itself, and
many of the Unix CLI utilities are not written in Obj-C.

> That is, do the OS API's imply a specific structure for objects
> (for instance, the isa pointer)? 

Yes.

> If so, then a) do all C++ compilers ultimately produce objective C calls?

No.  C++ compilers and C++ objects are different from Obj-C objects. 
However, NeXT ships a modified version of the GNU C compiler which can
compile Obj-C++ code-- code that contains both Objective-C and C++
syntax and objects.

> b) is there a public ABI (app binary interface) that describes
> this interface?

I believe you can find the GNU BFD (binary file description) used to
build gdb, if that's what you're asking about.

> Comment:  I'm trying to understand what the fundamental
> performance characteristics of the Yellow Box will be.

Obj-C method invocations have roughly twice the overhead of a C function
call.  They are similar in performance to the overhead of C++ virtual
methods.

Note that you can ask the runtime for the functional implementation
which is normally performed dynamicly by the runtime's objc_msgSend
routine, so in a tight loop you can get the performance of pure C
functions if it matters.

> 3.  Is it possible to call objective-c methods from C code?

Yes.

> Is this the purpose of objc_sendm?

No-- that's the routine that the compiler inserts whenever it sees the

    [anObject method:arg]

...syntax.  From the NeXT docs:

"The compiler converts every message expression into a call on one of
the first two of these three functions.  Messages to super are converted
to calls on objc_msgSendSuper(); all others are converted to calls on
objc_msgSend().

Both functions find the implementation of the theSelector method that's
appropriate for the receiver of the message.  For objc_msgSend(),
theReceiver is passed explicitly as an argument.  For
objc_msgSendSuper(), superContext defines the context in which the
message was sent, including who the receiver is.

Arguments that are included in the aSelector message are passed directly
as additional arguments to both functions.

Calls to objc_msgSend() and objc_msgSendSuper() should be generated only
by the compiler.  You shouldn't call them directly in the Objective C
code you write.  You can however use the Object instance method
performv:: to send an arbitrary message to an object."

> If it is possible, how easy is it for the C code to use the results?
> (The objective-C headers will not, e.g., contain an explicit
> reference to the isa pointer, so how could C code use
> those headers?)

Example, again from NeXT's docs (may be slightly out-of-date, too--
OPENSTEP is based off of NSObject instead of Object):

"The only way to circumvent dynamic binding is to get the address of a
method and call it directly as if it were a function.  This might be
appropriate on the rare occasions when a particular method will be
performed many times in succession and you want to avoid the overhead of
messaging each time the method is performed.

With a method defined in the Object class, methodFor:, you can ask for a
pointer to the procedure that implements a method, then use the pointer
to call the procedure.  The pointer that methodFor: returns must be
carefully cast to the proper function type.  Both return and argument
types should be included in the cast.

The example below shows how the procedure that implements the setTag:
method might be called:

id (*setter)(id, SEL, int);
int  i;

setter = (id (*)(id, SEL, int))[target methodFor:@selector(setTag:)];
for ( i = 0; i < 1000, i++ )
    setter(targetList[i], @selector(setTag:), i);

The first two arguments passed to the procedure are the receiving object
(self) and the method selector (_cmd).  These arguments are hidden in
method syntax but must be made explicit when the method is called as a
function.

Using methodFor: to circumvent dynamic binding saves most of the time
required by messaging.  However, the savings will be significant only
where a particular message will be repeated many times, as in the for
loop shown above."

> Comment 1:  I'm trying to understand the process of porting C code
> (or C++ code) to an objective-C world.  If we are stuck with
> only calls _from_ objective-C to C, then porting code would
> probably involve using an (old) C layer below a new objective-C layer,
> and the C layer could _not_ call code in the higher layer.

You're not stuck.  You can use the @defs() directive which will insert
the structure representation of a Obj-C object within a plain C
structure.  Alternatively, there are standard C functions which allow
you to access the instance variables, arguments, and and so forth
directly.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: jabi@acsu.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: QUESTION: OPENSTEP/NT Apps
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 14:33:55 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
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Hi:

I have a dumb question: I have OPENSTEP 4.1 for
Windows NT. I use Project Builder to build
a simple application. Now I have MyApp.app
which has MyApp.exe and Resources

Can I just give this to a friend who runs NT but doesn't have
OPENSTEP??? How do I "deploy" my applications?

Please e-mail me at wjabi@arch.buffalo.edu

Thanks/

-- 

w a s s i m   j a b i  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Dept. of Architecture    http://libra.arch.buffalo.edu/www/
University at Buffalo   EMail:       wjabi@arch.buffalo.edu
3435 Main St. - Hayes     Tel:            +1 (716) 829-3483
Buffalo, NY 14214 USA     Fax:            +1 (716) 829-3256
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Tue,  4 Mar 1997 12:44:55 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 2-Mar-97 Re: Nice
interview with Amelio by John De Hoog@experts.com 
>> In the past, I've tried these offline readers, and it just doesn't
>> feel right to me. Interaction isn't very good, especially if a thread
>> is very active. By the time one has uploaded his response, there
>> could be many others that make it irrelevant. So, there's more
>> potential for more wasted bandwidth. Great for lurkers, but like I
>> said, a digest mailing list is much more effective in this regard.
>> Offline apps will go by the wayside within 5 years. Heck, I don't
>> even use my serial ports anymore. Using a router/bridge at home will
>> be the way to go, if not already.
> 
> I disagree with the above points of view. Here are some reasons, which
> I hope you'll consider.
>  
> In May, I expect to get a dedicated Internet connection to my home.
> Right now, however, I pay $400/month in phone bills for dialup
> service, since all service in Japan is metered.

Like a lot of things, networking costs are relative and the cost of
living varies from place to place similar to the way average salary
varies from location to location.

Your company might pay part or even all of the costs associated with
Internet connectivity from one's home as a part of normal business
expenses.  There are lots of other alternatives-- for example, I've
gotten free Internet connectivity from an ISP by doing a few hours of
consulting work to help them out.

> Even with a dedicated
> connection, however, I expect to continue using offline browsers like
> Tierra Highlights and offline readers like Agent. Why? Let me explain,
> since these concepts seem so foreign to NeXTStep users.

Those concepts aren't foreign ones; they just strike me as fairly useless.  
  
> Tierra Highlights is used to monitor lots of Web sites at regular
> intervals (set separately for each site), and to highlight any changes
> at those sites since the last time you looked at them. Even with a
> dedicated connection, this is still a very systematic and efficient
> way to keep track of the latest developments. Right now I have over 50
> sites being monitored. They are arranged into "topics," such as News,
> Business, Computers, and smaller topics devoted to single sites such
> as Upside, so I can check on various pages in detail.

That's nice functionality, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with
offline web browsing.  OmniWeb provides the check & mark changed sites
capabilities, and NetSurfer provides a tabbed shelf with categories to
arrange web sites; I like both features.

[ ... ]
> As for an offline newsreader -- I am responding to this at my office,
> after first reading it at home. I have the entire thread on an MO
> disk, along with archived threads from way back when. An offline
> reader in the land of metered phone calls is essential; 

Under NEXTSTEP, you could set up INN and have your service provider feed
you compressed news batches via a UUCP feed over TCP/IP in the form of
your SLIP or PPP connection, and you could have this sent at cheaper
times.

> even with a
> dedicated line, though, I like the ability to go back and check
> earlier parts of a thread before responding, and to refer to other
> threads as necessary. Not to mention the luxury of composing a
> measured response, rather than jumping in like in a chat group.

Again, you could do so right now under NEXTSTEP.  You just have to use
other mechanisms than the specific applications you've mentioned,
because those specific ones don't exist.

[ ... ]

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 17:53:30 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
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In article <331b6a1a.54969011@library.airnews.net>,
John De Hoog  wrote:
>Happy niche-playing!

I find this comment interesting, because in the U.S., where computer
technology is driven, offline readers are niche markets.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue
General Systems Division          Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team   1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200
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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 18:33:03 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
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In article <331c487e.46365279@library.airnews.net>,
John De Hoog  wrote:
>No one has responded to my replies to Chuck and Ken, in which I laid
>out some specific application functionality that, apparently, NeXTStep
>does not offer. All three examples I gave relate to the Internet,
>obviously a key computer application area and not a "niche". 

RE: offline readers, etc because you live in a country with metered
phone service.

I'm glad I don't live in Japan. Does metered service mean all calls
are toll? Well, my ISDN service is toll, too; but it's much more
convenient and efficient for me to do things online. I let my servers
store important things so I don't have to worry about backup, data
recovery, etc. So, offline apps are a nonissue--and a niche--for me.

It's certainly a personal preference, so I can see why you would
need to use it. I probably won't.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue
General Systems Division          Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team   1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
From: shane@cs.toronto.edu (Shane Ruman)
Subject: Question about WebObjects and JavaScript
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: dvp.cs.toronto.edu
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Hello,
	I'm wondering if anyone ouyt there has eve used WebObjects pro 2.0
(I'm trying to get them to upgrade but ) and Javascript in an html
page.  When I try to access a Web-Objects generated page element from 
javascript the interpreter complains that the name of the element is not
known.  I'm using the name as defined in the .wod file, name attribute (and
have tried the name value in the .html file as well) but its no go from 
Javascript's end.  Viewing the source of the html page generated by WO
reveals that the name value of the element is being set to what I thought
it should be.  Is it possible to access WebObjects generated elements in 
a javascript?  I also came across some really strange problems with 
conditional expressions but found away around that eventually.
					Any help is greatly appreciated,
							Shane

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: 4 Mar 1997 22:38:07 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
Message-ID: <5fi88f$35g@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <5dbfr3$g10@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>   <33011DDB.4B1A@acm.org> <0n0OxoO00iWp023GQ0@andrew.cmu.edu> <33026799.D07@acm.org> <5e04nv$eqt@spool.cs.wisc.edu> <33079938.783E@acm.org> <5ean3v$3l5@spool.cs.wisc.edu><33091DD2.61FA@acm.org> <0n2TR_y00iWk05nyQ0@andrew.cmu.edu><330A8B29.1D5A@acm.org> <8n2mO2O00iWl05_J00@andrew.cmu.edu> <330B8D60.74C1@acm.org> <01bc2837$08c87b00$26193b9c@A413-04.cit.ac.nz>
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On 03/04/97, "Andrew McPherson" wrote:
> We'll take the best from the UNIX systems, put the mac interface on it and
> blow away the Wintel market with better marketing.
> And that's how apple came up with MacOS8...
> 
Umm, actually that's how NeXT came up with NeXTstep.

I believe that conditions are now such that, with AppLE behind it, Rhapsody 
(child of NeXTstep) will now be in a postition to stand up in the Wintel 
market.  I won't predict it'll "blow it away" (except technically), however 
it will do well enough.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: jspool@uie.com (Jared M. Spool)
Subject: Reprint: Integrating Other Applications
Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself)
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Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 22:49:28 GMT
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Next Developers:

People have recently shown interest in developing new applications
that leverage the functionality built-in to existing applications. The
following is a reprint of an article that was printed in the
November/December 1996 issue of Eye For Design.  I thought you might
find this of interest.

(There is information on how to get a sample issue of Eye For Design
at the end of this message.)

     - o - o - o -

Integrating Other Applications
by Will Schroeder

Problem:  Your application or web site needs some functionality. 
There's another product or site (either third-party or from your
company) which already does what you need.  Should you just integrate
it with your application, or spend the effort to "reinvent the wheel?"
 Integration is a tempting solution, but we've learned that it can
cause problems of its own. 

Recently, we tested three applications (a chemical compound database,
a financial analysis package, and a process modeller) that extended
their functionality by launching Microsoft Excel.  We observed that
users had some interesting problems users had with the integration of
the two products.   

__________
A Drink from a Fire Hydrant 

Complementing your application with another feature-rich application
is like getting a drink of water from a fire hydrant.  Beware of
creating learning hurdles when you integrate an application.  In our
tests, the users were familiar with Excel, and we still observed some
Excel-related usability issues.  If your users aren't proficient in
the other application, or you just need a few of its functions,
attempting to integrate it might place an undue burden on users.   

__________
Two Applications or One? 

As a designer, you must decide how tightly to integrate with the other
application.  Do you want the user to perceive the boundaries between
the applications or to treat them as one?  Most of the usability
problems we saw pertained to the users' mental models of how the two
products worked together.   

__________
Breaking the Mental Model 

Over time, users develop a mental model of how a product or site
works.  If any aspect of the integration changes the way the familiar
product works, this can disrupt users' mental model.   

One product added a formula to the Excel Function Wizard to calculate
and display a mathematical curve (in Excel, functions result in a
number in a spreadsheet cell).  After users completed this function,
we asked them what they expected and they all said, "I'll get a number
in a cell."  When they got a 3D graph instead, they were surprised -
the integration had broken their mental model.   

__________
Crossing the Boundaries 

In switching from one application or web site to another, the user
crosses a boundary.  Even if users are familiar with the place they're
going, they can become temporarily disoriented if they don't realize
where they are or how they got there.  When we tested applications
that put users into Excel, some users took a while to realize that
they were in Excel, and a few even thought they had gotten into Excel
by mistake! 

We've seen similar problems when applications use object linking and
embedding (OLE) technology to provide in-place editing, or when web
pages link to other sites.  Even though parts of the screen change,
users often don't realize that they are suddenly in a different
context. 

__________
Methods of Switching 

One development team wanted the two integrated applications to look
like one.  They added commands to Excel's Window menu so that users
could switch among the open windows in the two applications.  This
didn't work; users didn't look there.  The team revised their design
by adding a palette of icons for switching, and this worked better. 
We also saw that users who knew Excel would notice the addition of an
icon to Excel's toolbar, but only if it was flagrant (in this case,
large and red!). 

__________
Incompatible Data Types 

If functions in the other application don't work on all your types of
data, you're likely to see problems.  We saw many examples of users
attempting to apply familiar functionality in ways that didn't make
sense with the integrated product. One developer had added a feature
to display chemical diagrams in Excel spreadsheet cells.  In the
usability test, he grinned ruefully when users tried to sort on a
column full of pictures.   

Another example comes from Goldmine (a contact manager), which uses
the Crystal Report Writer to provide its reports.  The filtering
syntax in the two applications are different - a filter written within
Goldmine won't work in the report writer. 

Sometimes problems like this can be avoided by integrating an
application behind the scenes.  For example, a VBX called Formula One
acts like an invisible spreadsheet, so developers can add spreadsheet
capabilities to their application without making users learn another
interface. 

We did see a pattern in users' expectations in a couple areas. 
Uniformly, users expected automatic data updating (where changes in
the Excel data are reflected in the calling application, and vice
versa).  However, when we asked users whether they could load an Excel
file directly into the calling application, users weren't sure whether
the file formats were directly compatible.    

__________
Duplication of Functionality 

In some cases, it may make sense to duplicate some functionality from
the other application if it avoids confusion.  We tested a product
which relied on Excel for printing, and therefore omitted a Print
command from the product's File menu.  Several users could not
complete a printout task.  Even though they knew that Excel was
available, using it to print did not occur to them.  We have also seen
instances where users looked in Help in the "wrong" application,
searching for functionality that was in the other application.  But
not all users searched in Help, so some simply concluded that the
functionality didn't exist.

         - o - o - o -

Eye For Design is published six times a year with articles on a 
variety of product design and usability issues.

If you would like a complimentary issue mailed to you, just send
your postal address to efd@uie.com.  (Sorry, we do not have an email
version available, yet.)

Or, you can check out our website at http://www.uie.com.

Hope you found this to be of interest.

Jared

p.s. We'll ship your complimentary issue anywhere in the world,
as long as you tell us what country your from.


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From: "Jay Riley" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 4 Mar 97 17:13:50 -0600
Organization: Texas Networking, Inc.
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On Mon, Mar 3, 1997 10:38 PM, L. Todd Heberlein 
wrote: 
>FYI, I got the following information back from Apple regarding getting
>access to the Rhapsody Developers Release:
>
>------------------------
>To receive the Rhapsody Developer Release you need to join the Apple 
>Developer Program  and make sure all the forms you 
>need to receive prototype software are complete, in order to receive 
>developer releases. The Apple Developer mailings only have released 
>software in them, not developer releases or other prototype software.
>------------------------
>
>I found additional information at
>	http://17.126.23.20/dev/macdevprogram.html
>

Plus I understand Rhapsody will run NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP applications with a
simple re-compile. I understand you can get NeXTSTEP today in achedemic
version (for Intel based machines) for around $300. Try
 for more info.

Regards,

Jay Riley/Owner, DATAMAGIK

 *****************************************************************
 DATAMAGIK  Systems, Software & Design Engineering  1-888-369-5741
 Brownlee Circle   Austin, Texas   
 *****************************************************************
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 16:39:01 -0700
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>RE: offline readers, etc because you live in a country with metered
>phone service.

When I lived in England, some homes still had coin-operated electric-power
meters...

Mine still had one installed, but they had bypassed it for the more
"new-fangled" kind.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Windows: Tumor-causing, teeth-staining, smelly, puking habit.
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 00:58:42 GMT
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klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) said:

>
>I find this comment interesting, because in the U.S., where computer
>technology is driven, offline readers are niche markets.

Japan is 25% of Apple's market. Do you call that a niche?

Offline readers are a bigger niche than the entire NeXTStep user base.
Consider all the users of Forte Agent and Free Agent, MP Gravity, MS
Internet News, not to mention NewsHopper and MacSoup on the Apple
side, and tell me again what a niche looks like.
------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 19:32:15 -0600
From: frankf@endo.com
Subject: fast semaphore implementation and shared memory
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <857523499.13676@dejanews.com>
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I'm looking for a fast semaphore/lock implementation for a single write
process and multiple (but constant number of) consumer-processes shared
memory situation
on SGI Indigo platform. The processes are unix processes.

It is for a highly time critical application and therefore
I don't want to use the OS semaphores (unless I really have to).

Are there any fast software and/or hardware solutions to implement
 such a buffer access protection mechanism? (C or assembler)


Frank Franssen

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 01:20:50 GMT
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On 4 Mar 1997 16:43:16 GMT, "Georg Tuparev"  wrote:
>
>If you are hoping that static function calls will solve the big unification theory  
>you are on a wrong track.
>

Just to qualify this a little-- Georg is absolutely right when it
comes to large and complex things. 

But, for well-understood things (like, say, inverting a matrix), 
C++ can give you a gain over Objective-C. 

Of course, you really ought to be using FORTRAN for that 
sort of thing anyway ....


Cheers,

Andy
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From: Webboy 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 1997 18:49:13 -0700
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John De Hoog wrote:
> 
> klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) said:
> 
> >
> >I find this comment interesting, because in the U.S., where computer
> >technology is driven, offline readers are niche markets.
> 
> Japan is 25% of Apple's market. Do you call that a niche?
> 
What the hell are you talking about here John? He's talking offline
news, you are talking Apple.


___________________________________
webboy@super.zippo.com
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 23:52:03 -0700
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>Offline readers are a bigger niche than the entire NeXTStep user base.
>Consider all the users of Forte Agent and Free Agent, MP Gravity, MS
>Internet News, not to mention NewsHopper and MacSoup on the Apple
>side, and tell me again what a niche looks like.

People that pooh-pooh Apple's size should recall that Cyberdog has as much
as 1% (up to 5% during "sweep week" at the various browser counter sites)
of the browser market. This is pretty hefty, considering that Apple doesn't
promote CD save by encouraging magazine articles.

-- 
Customer:      "I'm running Windows '95."
Tech Support:  "Yes."
Customer:      "My computer isn't working now."
Tech Support:  "Yes, you said that."
--
english@primenet.com





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From: remove-excess@verbiage.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 07:09:20 GMT
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Now we have Jason Sterne  saying,

>> klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) said:
>> 
>> >
>> >I find this comment interesting, because in the U.S., where computer
>> >technology is driven, offline readers are niche markets.
>> 
>> Japan is 25% of Apple's market. Do you call that a niche?
>> 
>What the hell are you talking about here John? He's talking offline
>news, you are talking Apple.

Try to follow the logic, Webboy. 

(1) He says offline readers are a niche in the U.S.
(2) However, offline readers are not a niche in Japan.
(3) Japan is not a niche for Apple, but is Apple's second largest
market.
(4) Ergo, offline readers are (potentially, at least) not a niche
product in the Apple market.

Besides, I made that clear in the rest of my post, which you
snippered.

How's your budding law career coming, "Webboy"?
-------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
(remove-)excess@verbiage.com
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From: webboy@webname.com (Webboy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 01:00:20 -0700
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In article <331d1ae6.26578860@news.alt.net>, remove-excess@verbiage.com wrote:

>Now we have Jason Sterne  saying,
>
>>> klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) said:
>>> 
>>> >
>>> >I find this comment interesting, because in the U.S., where computer
>>> >technology is driven, offline readers are niche markets.
>>> 
>>> Japan is 25% of Apple's market. Do you call that a niche?
>>> 
>>What the hell are you talking about here John? He's talking offline
>>news, you are talking Apple.
>
>Try to follow the logic, Webboy. 
>
>(1) He says offline readers are a niche in the U.S.
>(2) However, offline readers are not a niche in Japan.
>(3) Japan is not a niche for Apple, but is Apple's second largest
>market.
>(4) Ergo, offline readers are (potentially, at least) not a niche
>product in the Apple market.
>
>Besides, I made that clear in the rest of my post, which you
>snippered.
>
>How's your budding law career coming, "Webboy"?
>-------
>John De Hoog, Tokyo
>(remove-)excess@verbiage.com


With circular logic like that, a lot further than yours.

-- 
webboy@webname.com

Made on a Power Macintosh 7300/180
Semper Mac!
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From: bayleyp@dnc.net (bayleyp)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Run NeXT on SOM?
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 00:24:53 -0800
Organization: http://www.orst.edu/~bayleyp/
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   Any news if Apple will use System Object Model in NeXT? I can already
compile SOM objects using Obj-C, but I can also choose any other language
with SOM bindings.
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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 5 Mar 1997 04:58:12 GMT
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In article <331cbed6.3007201@library.airnews.net>,
John De Hoog  wrote:
>klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) said:
>>I find this comment interesting, because in the U.S., where computer
>>technology is driven, offline readers are niche markets.
>
>Japan is 25% of Apple's market. Do you call that a niche?

I was referring to offline readers. Your above sentence implies that
everyone in Japan uses offline readers, which isn't true. My apologies
if I wasn't clear.

>Offline readers are a bigger niche than the entire NeXTStep user base.

I'd like to see the source for this info. And I would speculate
that even if this were so, their roles will be reversed in the
future.

>Consider all the users of Forte Agent and Free Agent, MP Gravity, MS
>Internet News, not to mention NewsHopper and MacSoup on the Apple
>side, and tell me again what a niche looks like.

Again, I'd like to see a source regarding how many users use the
above programs. I still feel offline readers are dwindling in the
U.S. I have no proof but BBSes aren't very common these days and
offline readers were mainly used for their message bases. And I
almost never read about someone who wants help with an offline
reader. Just for the heck of it, I searched for offline and news
in dejanews and there were 2875 entries. Most are from either
fido subdomains or countries such as France, Italy, Korea, and
so forth--countries with metered phone service, I presume.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue
General Systems Division          Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team   1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 11:18:00 GMT
Organization: Experts, Inc.
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klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) said:

>>Offline readers are a bigger niche than the entire NeXTStep user base.
>
>I'd like to see the source for this info. And I would speculate
>that even if this were so, their roles will be reversed in the
>future.
>
>>Consider all the users of Forte Agent and Free Agent, MP Gravity, MS
>>Internet News, not to mention NewsHopper and MacSoup on the Apple
>>side, and tell me again what a niche looks like.
>
>Again, I'd like to see a source regarding how many users use the
>above programs. I still feel offline readers are dwindling in the
>U.S. I have no proof but BBSes aren't very common these days and
>offline readers were mainly used for their message bases. And I
>almost never read about someone who wants help with an offline
>reader. Just for the heck of it, I searched for offline and news
>in dejanews and there were 2875 entries. Most are from either
>fido subdomains or countries such as France, Italy, Korea, and
>so forth--countries with metered phone service, I presume.

There is a Usenet group called alt.usenet.offline-reader, and another
devoted just to forte-agent. The latter has especially high traffic,
and most of the people who post there do so from U.S. addresses. 

BBSs have nothing to do with it. Many of us just find it easier to
deal with news on our own drive, so we can easily go back through
threads, watch threads, ignore threads and so on. Anyway, accept the
fact that it is a legitimate application area that needs to be well
supported on any platform that expects to have a broad, worldwide
following.
------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: nevin@CS.Arizona.EDU (Nevin ":-]" Liber)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 06:47:13 -0700
Organization: University of Arizona CS Department, Tucson "It's A *DRY* Heat!" Arizona
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In article <5fcq0u$5ih@hpax.cup.hp.com>, klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui) wrote:

> In article ,
> Charles William Swiger   wrote:
> >An "offline Web browser" is an oxymoron.  It's also IMHO a really stupid
> >idea, and the lack of such is no loss.

> I believe this concept is carried over from BBS/Fidonet days where
> people don't want to rack up connect time charges/limits imposed by
> the phone company or the BBS service. Personally, I feel it's not very
> effective--i.e. why do online stuff offline. There are definitely a
> lot of people using offline browsers, readers, etc; but one may as
> well subscribe to digest mailing lists instead.

I don't think Charles was as clear on his offline browsing as he could
have been (and was on his offline newsreading statement).

It isn't that doing these types of things while not connected to the
Internet is a bad idea, the Bad Idea comes when a specific browser or
newsreader has to specifically differentiate between offline and online
connections.  It is much, much better to put those things at a lower level
or layer (the two Charles mentioned were a Harvest web cache for offline
browsing, and a PersonalINN package for offline newsreading); then *every*
browser and newsreader gets this benefit automatically.  If the point of
view is of the browser or newsreader, it shouldn't matter whether the
underlying http/nntp request is sent out over a network or intercepted by
another piece of software and handled offline.

Adding system services to allow any browser or newsreader to perform its
functions offline is a Good Idea; hardcoding that functionality into a
specific browser or newsreader instead of putting that functionality at a
lower layer is a Bad Idea.
-- 
 Nevin ":-)" Liber                (520) 293-2799
                          
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From: jlimpert@pathfinder.com (john limpert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: renderman help.
Date: 5 Mar 1997 15:31:24 GMT
Organization: Time Warner Pathfinder	
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:28403 comp.sys.next.programmer:23296

If I click on a .rib file in nextstep 3.3 it brings up a program called 3view
which lets me move around a wireframe or shaded object.  

How do I render a rib in photorealistic renderman?

thanks!
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From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Drs G. C. Th. Wierda)
Subject: GNU regex for NEXTSTEP?
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Hi,

	I am looking for GNU regex for NEXTSTEP, preferably something that I 
can install as libregex.a and that comes with iregex.c (the interactive front 
end for testing). I tried looking on FSF sites, but without any luck so far.

	Can anybody help?

-- 
Gerben Wierda,

Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, 's-Gravenhage, The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922	Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/

"One foolish wise man can state more
	than a thousand wise fools can question."
"Doubters need to understand believes.
	Believers need not understand doubt."
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From: Petr Novak 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Launching Perl script ?
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 17:56:56 +0100
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Hallo !

 How can be an Perl script executed from Openstep on NT ?
 I made some trials with NSTask, but without success.

 Petr Novak
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 5 Mar 1997 17:11:13 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <5fk9fh$8b9$3@darla.visi.com>
References: <01bc25fa$c628b6e0$5c2168cf@test1> <331b4654.45811233@library.airnews.net> <5ffmvs$ku3$1@darla.visi.com> <331b6a1a.54969011@library.airnews.net> <5fhniq$gu4$1@hpax.cup.hp.com> <331cbed6.3007201@library.airnews.net> <331CD115.362@super.zippo.com> <331d1ae6.26578860@news.alt.net>
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:194812 comp.sys.next.programmer:23299

In comp.sys.next.programmer John De Hoog  wrote:
: Try to follow the logic, Webboy. 

Ouch.

: (3) Japan is not a niche for Apple, but is Apple's second largest
: market.
: (4) Ergo, offline readers are (potentially, at least) not a niche
: product in the Apple market.

NEXTSTEP was a major success in Japan, especially with Canon.
Japan was a major market for NEXTSTEP. Yet, the offline readers
available for NEXTSTEP don't meet with your needs. I suspect
you don't speak for all of Japan when you say that offline readers
are crucial.

: How's your budding law career coming, "Webboy"?

This is just plain flame action, whcih doesn't belong on a .programmer
newsgroup. I've redirected responses to csn.advocacy; please do the same.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Run NeXT on SOM?
Date: 5 Mar 1997 17:15:51 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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bayleyp  wrote:
:    Any news if Apple will use System Object Model in NeXT? I can already
: compile SOM objects using Obj-C, but I can also choose any other language
: with SOM bindings.

Man, I hope not.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 5 Mar 1997 17:20:52 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.programmer John De Hoog  wrote:
: BBSs have nothing to do with it. Many of us just find it easier to
: deal with news on our own drive, so we can easily go back through
: threads, watch threads, ignore threads and so on. Anyway, accept the
: fact that it is a legitimate application area that needs to be well
: supported on any platform that expects to have a broad, worldwide
: following.

I think you're totally overlooking INN. You can run an entire newsfeed
to your home machine on NEXTSTEP, which means that the spool is saved
locally to your hard drive. Imagine this scenario:

You only read news once daily, so you set up INN to open a feed connection
to your provider nightly at 3AM, when phone bills are low. pppd picks up
on the network request and automatically dials up your ISP, and after
the transfer is finished, hangs up after a few minutes idle time.
The next morning you read news over breakfast from the local spool.
Because you're so cool, you've set up an autodecoder for alt.binaries.fonts,
which passes the AFM fonts on to a conversion utility by way of a shell
script, and copies them to /LocalLibrary/Fonts.

If this isn't solution enough for you, I don't know what would be.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: frank@ali.bc.ca (Frank Pang)
Subject: NSUnarchiver leaks memory!
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Reply-To: frank@ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:43:44 GMT
Lines: 58

Thanks to Ivo Boehme for providing the solution there.  Whew, and all
along I thought I was doing something wrong.  His observations are
consistent with mine...

--- begin forwarded message
X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 1.1)
From: Ivo Boehme 
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:14:35 -0800
To: frank@cetus.ali.bc.ca
Subject: Memory leak


Frank,

> I have a problem which has nagged me for too long.  I get memory leaks
> and had MallocDebug trace the source of the leaks to a call to
> [NSUnarchiver unarchiveObjectWithFile:@"foo"].  The sample code compiles


`+ unarchiveObjectWithData:(NSData *)data' always creates a mem leak.
Link this category to your code and call `- deallocData' before releasing
a NSUnarchiver object. Gee, this bug really gave us a huge swap space ...


%----------------------------------------
#import 

@interface NSUnarchiver (antibug)

- deallocData;

@end

@implementation NSUnarchiver (antibug)
- deallocData
{
  free((void*)[data bytes]);
  return self;
}
%----------------------------------------

Hope it helps,

Ivo


P.S.

Unfortunately I am currently not able to post messages. That's why
PM. (You may post it for me, if you like ...)

--- end forwarded message
--
Frank Pang,                              frank@ali.bc.ca
Software Developer
A.L.I. Technologies Ltd.,                (NeXT & MIME accepted here)
95-10551 Shellbridge Way, Richmond, BC,  279-5422 (ext. 366)
Canada V6X 2W9
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From: "Georg Tuparev" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 5 Mar 1997 18:51:08 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 22
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Hey guys! This is comp.sys.next.programming and not alt.stupid.logic

-- georg --

In article   
webboy@webname.com (Webboy) writes:
> >(1) He says offline readers are a niche in the U.S.
> >(2) However, offline readers are not a niche in Japan.
> >(3) Japan is not a niche for Apple, but is Apple's second largest
> >market.
> >(4) Ergo, offline readers are (potentially, at least) not a niche
> >product in the Apple market.
> >
> With circular logic like that, a lot further than yours.

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Wed,  5 Mar 1997 14:09:00 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 5-Mar-97 Re: Nice
interview with Amelio by Nevin ":-]" Liber@CS.Ari 
> I don't think Charles was as clear on his offline browsing as he could
> have been (and was on his offline newsreading statement).

Well, your mileage may vary.

All I really wanted to do was demonstrate that one could achieve
off-line web browsing or news reading under NEXTSTEP.  I also mentioned
that web browsers or news readers which were specificly designed to work
offline seem silly to me.

> It isn't that doing these types of things while not connected to the
> Internet is a bad idea, the Bad Idea comes when a specific browser or
> newsreader has to specifically differentiate between offline and online
> connections.

And you seem to agree.  Cool!

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GNU regex for NEXTSTEP?
Date: Wed,  5 Mar 1997 14:15:37 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.software: 5-Mar-97 GNU regex for
NEXTSTEP? by Drs G. C. Th. Wierda@AWT 
>       I am looking for GNU regex for NEXTSTEP, preferably something that I 
> can install as libregex.a and that comes with iregex.c (the interactive
> front end for testing). I tried looking on FSF sites, but without any luck
> so far.

How about ?
It doesn't seem to have iregex.c, but it does come with a series of tests.

You might try asking on the gnu.* groups, too-- this is a generic
question about GNU software, and is not NEXTSTEP-specific.  Unless
you're looking for a precompiled version, that is....

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: sschaper@inlink.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 19:21:33 GMT
Organization: InLink
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On 4 Mar 97 17:13:50 -0600, "Jay Riley" 
wrote:

>>
>>------------------------
>>To receive the Rhapsody Developer Release you need to join the Apple 
>>Developer Program  and make sure all the forms you 
>>need to receive prototype software are complete, in order to receive 
>>developer releases. The Apple Developer mailings only have released 
>>software in them, not developer releases or other prototype software.

That sounds fairly expensive to do. You'd think Apple would want
as many beta testers and early adopters as possible. This is
dissappointing, to say the least.






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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 5 Mar 1997 19:37:15 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
Message-ID: <5fki1c$p7d@netty.york.ac.uk>
References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5de4gb$np2@news.bu.edu> <32FB7FCA.4D15@mcs.com>  <5esiis$ck4@netty.york.ac.uk> 
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> On 24 Feb 1997 17:19:24 GMT, Roger Peppe <_rog@ohm.york.ac.uk_> wrote:
> I've thought, BTW, that the first 512bytes of the file could be
> invisible (all lseek() calls assume an offset unless a fcntl()
> flag get set to maximize visibility).  With an extra 1/2K of
> control information, all kinds of stuff can be hidden out-of-
> band to all the "normal" utilities...
> This'd have to apply to devices and directories...
> Is 512 bytes enough?

i think the basic problem with this approach is that
	a) it makes the system call interface that much more complex,
	   and therefore harder to document, debug and maintain.
	   (especially if you have several rival implementations...)

	b) it doesn't go far enough! as you say "is 512 bytes enough" ?
	   obviously not in all circumstances. some people have been
	   talking about the use of the resource fork to store markup
	   information for a text editor; in this case 512 bytes is
	   certainly not enough.

if you do it this way, then all this data suddenly becomes accessible
only to programs that know about it. one of the great sources of
computer power is that it is possible to process data without
understanding the nature of that data.

descending into unix parlance for a moment (because that's the system
i'm most familiar with), "compress" can compress a text document, a
graphical image, or the output from a device.  "encrypt" similarly.
the concept of a pipeline of processes is dependent on this concept.

if all files are divided into two halves, one of which is
conventionally accessible, and the other concealed, then this is
essentially an _a priori_ judgement on the suitability of the data in
the concealed half for use with any particular program.

the question is: what does this gain you ?

i don't think very much - the only advantage being concealment of the
existence of these ghostly bits of data from the user.

but the user never has to see the "normal" utilities.  and the apps in
such a system don't have to see the "normal" system calls, either.  one
can imagine a system where all apps used the same file access library,
substantially similar to the unix system call interface, apart from
that the open call recognises a particular attribute of directories
(the old "sticky" bit might be subverted to this end; it's been through
worse) and opens a file "contents" in the directory; the other files in
the directory are only accessible to those programs that need to know.

if a filesystem is made simple enough then it can become an extremely
useful form of abstraction for all kinds of things, completely
unrelated to actual datafiles.

for an example of what can be done when a filesystem is made really
simple, check out Lucent Technologies' Inferno

  http://www.lucent.com/inferno/

this system incorporates the most advanced OS technology i've
seen (it's from the originators of Unix, having refined and
reinvented those concepts for the last 30 years, while the rest
of the world has just "added features").

> > (a superuser can of course trivially change the ctime *and* the mtime of
> > a file however)

> Using the "touch" command which calls utimes().

actually, this won't work, because utimes() updates the ctime also.
no, the only way to do this is to call settimeofday, touch the file
and settimeofday back again. ugh! (i have done it in the past, though :-] )

  cheers,
    rog.

P.S. if anyone replies to this and expects me to see the reply
it's best to email it to me, because
  a) this news server only seems to get around 30% of all articles
  b) the average time taken to reach here seems to be about half
     a month!

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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 5 Mar 1997 17:14:40 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
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In article ,
Nevin ":-]" Liber  wrote:
>It isn't that doing these types of things while not connected to the
>Internet is a bad idea, the Bad Idea comes when a specific browser or
>newsreader has to specifically differentiate between offline and online
>connections.

Your example is a good one. As long as everything is transparent
to the apps I can accept.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue
General Systems Division          Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team   1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200
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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 13:51:27 -0600
From: pas@filoli.com
Subject: Job:US-CA-Palo Alto:NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Object Oriented Developer
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.offered,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.marketplace
Message-ID: <857590785.19289@dejanews.com>
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*** The Filoli Information Systems, Co. ***

Filoli Information Systems, Inc. has an immediate need for Senior
and Entry Level OO software developers with NEXTSTEP and Objective-C
experience. Filoli is a startup with over 100 employees currently
developing a large paperless distributed claims processing system
for clients in the Workers Compensation insurance market.

Filoli's mission is to use advanced information technology including
imaging, networking, and workflow management to to improve the
capability and economic performance of the front office in markets
such as insurance and health care.


*** Job Description ***

Location:
    Palo Alto CA

Title:
    Senior/Junior Software Engineer

Responsibilities:
    Develop GUI, application or framework components for a Workers
    Compensation claims processing and medical management system.

    Requirements Analysis
    Application and Framework Component Design
    Software Implementation
    Software Unit, Integration and Sytem Testing
    Software and System Documentation

Preferred Requirements (Senior Level):
    Excellent teamwork and communication capabilities, especially
    good writing skills
    Experience with OO analysis and design methodologies
    2+ yrs C++, Java, Objective-C or Smalltalk programming experience
    2+ yrs UNIX Operating System experience
    4+ yrs professional software development experience
    A BS degree in Computer Science or a related field

Preferred Requirements (Entry Level/Junior):
    Excellent teamwork and communication capabilities, especially
    good writing skills
    Experience with OO programming
    C++, Java, Objective-C or Smalltalk programming experience
    UNIX Operating System experience
    A BS degree in Computer Science or a related field

Other desirable qualifications:
    NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Windows NT Operating System experience
    Knowledge of databases (Sybase preferred)
    Experience developing reusable framework components
    Experience with tcl


*** Contact Information ***

Please contact Dawn Deir at (415)856-3100 Ext 272, or send your
resume to jobs@filoli.com or fax to (415) 856-3137.


*** What Others Are Saying ***

Robertson Stephens & Company, one of the most respected West Coast
investment banks, has just completed (Feb. 24, 1997) a report on:

The Workers' Compensation Industry: Slaying the Long-Tailed Cost
Dragon

This report looks at the desirability of investing in the Workers'
Compensation market (principallly looking at the risks/rewards of
investing in carriers, and health care providers).  They believe
the Comp market is poised for  potential financial growth, primarily
due to disability management and related medical cost containment
practices. On page 22 of the report we read:

"We believe another interesting niche opportunity within the
specialty service provider space will be the rise of  information
systems companies focused on the workers' compensation market. For
example, Filoli Information Systems, in California's Silicon Valley,
develops and markets an integrated claims management system, called
CompAIDE, for workers' compensation carriers and self-insureds.
Using the latest scanning technology, CompAIDE reduces claims and
administrative costs by providing paperless automation of the claims
process."

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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 5 Mar 1997 17:40:45 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
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In article <331d5534.8186601@library.airnews.net>,
John De Hoog  wrote:
>There is a Usenet group called alt.usenet.offline-reader, and another
>devoted just to forte-agent. The latter has especially high traffic,

Actually, the forte-agent alt newsgroup contains 6K messages while
the reader newsgroup contains 9K messages in dejanews.

>                                                  Anyway, accept the
>fact that it is a legitimate application area that needs to be well
>supported on any platform

I accept that it's legitimate, but I question the effectiveness of its
implementation where it assumes one's offline. In another thread, Niven
Liber made an excellent point where if some lower-level subsystem actually
controls how news articles are siphoned to/from the real feed, any
"online" newsreader can be used as an "offline" reader. I hadn't thought
about that before. Similarly, my systems at home are physically "offline,"
but their configurations think they're online all the time--the under-
lying network hardware makes it transparent so I don't have to worry
about rigging the configuration on my machines once my bridge has been
configured--the bridge monitors net traffic and if it senses a packet
wanting to go outside of my "subnet," it makes a connection, and when
traffic remains idle after a threshold, the line(s) are dropped.

Does Forte-Agent use its own news database format or is it compatible
with b news or c news? If it does, or some other agent uses its own
proprietary format, then that's an additional level of overhead that's
not really needed. "Support" can be interpreted in different ways, and
I find the approach outlined by Niven more simpler and elegant.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue
General Systems Division          Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open/Intelligent Warehouse Team   1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.7200
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From: s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu (Weiyuan W Chin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 5 Mar 1997 17:06:50 -0500
Organization: Virginia Commonwealth University
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It has occured to me that there isn't a rush by Mac developers
to develop under the OPENSTEP API's.  Reading over the press
releases, I get the sense that one could avoid the re-write
to OPENSTEP API's and just recompile an app written in
Codewarrior for OPENSTEP. Now, would that result in an app that
basically translates API calls to OPENSTEP calls?  Would this
result in an app that runs as fast as a fully native OPENSTEP
app?  Are developers just going ahead with their current
development plans and a) hope that the compability for developers
is as complete as the user environment b) hoping that the OPENSTEP
portion of Rhapsody will fail so that they can do things the way
they always have c) hoping that Rhapsody will fail so that they
can write Be apps d) something else??

Not knowing PowerPlant, MacApp, or CodeWarrior, can someone
point out how they compare to ProjectBuilder, IB, AppKit,
FoundationKit, etc.?

I just don't see the rush of newbie OPENSTEP programming
questions that I had expected.  Maybe it's just that most Mac
developers don't have access to a NeXT/Intel/SPARC to do OPENSTEP
development yet.

BTW, has Macromedia figured out that they own the source code to
Virtuoso which is basically Freehand for NEXTSTEP?  A couple of
months of development and then some QA and viola - they can have
an OPENSTEP - Rhapsody app ready before Rhapsody is. 

Things are just too quiet.

..Bill Chin
s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu (NeXTmail/MIME accepted)

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From: jlimpert@pathfinder.com (john limpert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: help me with ppp
Date: 5 Mar 1997 22:29:09 GMT
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i have nextstep 3.3 for intel and a pc w/ 28.8 modem.

how do I get a ppp connection to the internet established??

any help would be appreciated.

jlimpert@pathfinder.com
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From: edwinl1@ix.netcom.com(MO & Associates)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Sugestion Box/New Ideas Administrator Software
Date: 6 Mar 1997 01:24:32 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Mar 05  5:24:32 PM PST 1997

THE NEW IDEAS ADMINISTRATOR   Version 2.01

The best "NEW IDEAS ADMINISTRATOR" in the market.  Use e-Mail
(optional).  Intuitive way for 
employees to have access to a tool in order to make suggestions to
Supervisors.  Can be done using 
computer or filling the new idea form.  Can be e-mailed (optional) to
his/her supervisor, director, vice-
president, etc.   The supervisor evaluates the idea and sends back the
evaluation, asking for more info or 
with the final evaluation.  Awards might be implemented depending the
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has different level of access, employee, supervisor, director,
administrator, etc.   Your Company can save 
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twice a year.  Also help available through Internet.

It's a simple but Powerful Tool for just:  $139.99


Send Check or Money Order - $139.99  to:

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Ask for more info to: edwinL1@ix.netcom.com
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: 5 Mar 1997 20:36:10 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 301
Message-ID: <5fklfq$bhp@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
References: <5d8qta$6np@news.bu.edu> <331A0AD3.A0D@acm.org> <5feijb$257@sps1.phys.vt.edu> <331B9F17.4C30@acm.org>
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In article <331B9F17.4C30@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote:

> Nathan Urban wrote:

> > In article <331A0AD3.A0D@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote:

> Read further down in my previous post, and you will realise that I 
> allow for the fact that if an application wants to handle an exception 
> in its own way, then there are mechanisms for it to do that.

I know that, but there is also the important matter of the operating
system having intelligent default handlers, so you don't have to
override the OS all the time.  That makes you lose the main advantage of
registered handlers, which is convenience.

> > I'm not sure we're clear on what the original suggestion I was objecting
> > to was. I wasn't objecting to having the OS handle management of
> > resources.  I was objecting to the OS trying to handle error conditions
> > that the application should really handle itself, and especially the
> > idea of operating systems _requiring_ user intervention in order to
> > handle errors.

> This does not contradict what I said. Clearly the application should
> handle application exceptions. There will then be a class of error
> that the OS handles, without operator or engineer interaction. But there
> is that class that _requires_ operator handling. I think we have seen
> enough examples of those: they occur on any system! However, if you
> read my comments on concurrency carefully, you will realise that
> many conditions can arise where a process becomes blocked on waiting
> for some resource, like a file, to be made available. In the concurrent
> world, this should not be handed back to the process as an exception,
> but handled by the OS scheduler.

This is where I think we disagree.  From a concurrency point of view,
this may be more desirable, but I think that it is the process's
responsibility to handle something like a resource-not-available error,
up to and including asking for human intervention by whatever means _it_
deems appropriate.

> Example:
> This is an example where things are operationally easier, because the
> system is more forgiving. Most systems require an operator to do
> 'step 1, wait to complete, step 2, wait to complete....' But in a
> system where processes will automatically wait for resources, the
> operator can run things in any order. If they forget the steps,
> the system will prompt them for missing resources. Hence the system
> becomes self documenting, and you do not rely on some written process
> that some process officer/quality wally insists should be typed
> up and three hole punched and put in a binder ;-).

I agree that this would be a good example of where your proposal would
be beneficial.  However, in this example, I think that most of the
tasks would be of the nature where the process would block waiting for
human interaction anyway, so it wouldn't matter whether or not the OS
handled it or the application.  There are many other cases, such as
batch-processing type operations, where it would be more appropriate to
just move on.  I think the question here is what the default action
should be.  You could have two possibilities:

(1) The OS blocks the processes automatically for resources, and prompts
for the resource.  Other processes that don't want this behavior can
override the handler.

(2) The OS hands the process a resource-not-available exception by
default, and nothing else.  The process registers a default exception
handler, and can choose among stock handlers such as "prompt for
resource" or "null handler" (just move on).

I like (2) better..  you seem to be advocating (1).

> The point is that exception handling is different in concurrent
> situations.

> If a process becomes blocked on a condition, then it might need human
> intervention in order to realise the condition can never be fulfilled,
> and in that case to cause an exception (maybe by termination) to really
> be handed back to the process. It is better for system resilience for
> an OS to request permission to do this, rather than just go ahead and
> do it, as the OS should not "assume" what to do in these abnormal
> situations.

Is this different from what Unix does?  Unix doesn't typically go and
kill processes anytime something goes wrong, only when things are screwed
up so badly that it deems the error unrecoverable.  Even then, processes
usually get a SIGHUP that allows them to recover gracefully if trapped
(they can even refuse to die if they find they don't have to).

> >  And especially, a fixed kind of user intervention, such
> > as a system-standard dialog box.

> No, you are designing implementations here that I never suggested,
> except maybe as an example of one of many ways.

You _did_ suggest that, and that's why I fixated on your suggestion as a
Really Bad Idea.  I didn't like some of your other suggestions of
default behaviors either, though I can't quite remember what they were
now.

The capability of providing default error handlers is a good one, my
main problem is that the defaults used when a process does not register
its own handler need to be carefully chosen to do as little as possible,
and in particular should almost never require human intervention.

> It might be a dialog box, but this would not be very convenient for
> large systems. In large systems this is more likely a list of
> processes currently blocked, what the condition is, and if and how
> the operator can help out. Remember this is for coarse grained
> resources.

Okay.  I like that much better.  Perhaps you could have an ErrorDetector
panel, that sets some flag (under Rhapsody, maybe a little marker on the
Workspace icon) that notifies you of processes it was forced to block.
Then you can pull up that panel, displaying the information you
described.

However, again, I think the OS should tend to avoid blocking processes,
though perhaps it would be good to give processes the ability to ask
the OS to block them under specified classes of exceptional conditions.

> > I agree that programmers should have a stock of basic error-handling
> > machines from which to draw, I don't like coding exception handlers any
> > more than you do, but I think that applications programmers should have
> > the choice of handling errors in any way they desire, including ignoring
> > them.  This does not preclude the possibility of having a library of
> > error handlers.

> Good, we agree here. And I actually think we are having a de Bono
> exchange rather than a Socratic one, as we have arrived at the same point!

My objections were really always toward the implementation rather than
the concept, though that may not have been clear at first.

> Now the way this
> is done on the machines I am talking about is that the application
> enables exceptions with an ON statement, for example:

> ON DIVIDEBYZERO
> ON ANYFAULT   -- gets anything

> etc, and attaches the exception to an interrupt handler, which is also
> in the application.

So what you are really advocating is just a unified way for applications
to register handlers for standard OS-generated exceptions, in the form
of an exception-handling API right at the system-call level, correct?

> > Throwing up an interactive dialog box every time a file cannot be found
> > can be _wildly_ inappropriate for many applications.

> In fact that is not the way that it happens. Again, you have used as an 
> example a dialog box. That interface as I have said is most probably
> not appropriate. Rather, the process is put in the waiting entries.

Okay.  See my previous comment on this issue.

> You should also remove emotive adverbs from
> your posts. I would rephrase that as "can be inappropriate for a certain
> class of applications," which I agree with.

Well, I'll stick with my original assertion, as that particular example
_would_ be wildly inappropriate for many applications.  I'm glad you're
not advocating it as the default action for a resource-not-available
exception, as I had thought.

> >  Rather than forcing programmers to override the OS's
> > exception hanlding constantly (which is the whole reason you purport to
> > like this scheme, as it's supposed to keep the programmer from constantly
> > worrying about exceptional conditions), the OS should take the minimum
> > action necessary to prevent fatal errors, and allow the application to
> > layer on additional error handling if desired.

> "Fatal errors" are by definition those that will terminate a process.
> The OS is contracted to provide a consistent environment for
> applications to run in. Thus the OS should do its utmost to shield
> applications from environmental failures, not its "minimum".

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  I wasn't saying that the
OS should barely try to prevent fatal errors.  I was saying that the OS
should do whatever is necessary to prevent _fatal_ errors, but little
more.  I believe that nonfatal errors should be handed to the
application to deal with itself, though it should certainly have the
capability of registering a handler for such an error, so it doesn't
have to constantly check for an error condition.

> If the applications programmer 'expects' to see certain
> exceptions, they will have told the OS to ignore them, and pass them
> back to the application.

Okay, I see your perspective here.  I just want to say that the OS has
to be very careful in handling errors that the application didn't expect
and ask the OS to ignore, so that it does not try to take an action that
may be inappropriate to that application.

> For myself, I am a systems programmer, and it is my job to provide
> this kind of systematic support for the applications that will run on
> top of my software. In that case if I am to write good "middleware",
> then I should handle exceptions that have to do with the resources that
> I manage. It is sloppy design to hand these back to my caller.

Well, I don't know about that.  Going back to the file-not-found
example..  sure, the OS manages file resources.  But that doesn't
necessarily mean that it should attempt to handle exceptions that have
to do with file resources.  The ways in which different callers will
choose to deal with such an exception vary quite a bit, so in this case
the best action may truly be to hand the exception back to the caller,
as the OS simply does not have the knowledge to provide a really general
solution.

> > I'm not against handling exceptions on a global, OS-wide level.  I just
> > think that the OS should attempt to handle exceptions by default in a
> > minimal way that is appropriate for all processes

> I think your use of the term minimal is an inappropriate heuristic,
> as it is too vague:

> The OS should do what the OS should do, and the application what the
> application should do. Then you can have design-by-contract over
> OS interfaces.

I don't think that's really any less vague, as people disagree over
which things the OS and the application should do.

> > And especially, an OS should never require user
> > intervention, except in cases where it _only_ makes sense for a user to
> > make a decision.

> Correct, and that can be quite a large number of exceptions.
> That is what I am saying, give the user/operator conditions to 
> handle where it makes sense. For example "Disk full" I do not want
> the OS to start deleting files, nor an application. I want the choice.
> However, if you don't want a stop, you might have an automatic handler,
> which the OS starts up to remove known temporary files, or perhaps start
> an archive to tape. In this case the OS handles the exception. Some OSs
> provide automatic system assistents in the form of scripts:

> ON DISKFULL RUN TEMP_FILE_DELETER;

> If there is no such handling of the disk full condition, ask the
> operator, don't hand it back as an exception to the program. That is the very
> opposite of robust.

It depends on the class of exception, of course.  "Disk full" is an
exceptional condition which affects _all_ applications, so is most
appropriately handled by the OS.  Most applications wouldn't even have
the access privileges necessary to do anything intelligent in a case
like that, except for maybe something like backing up their data over a
network in the expectation of imminent system failure.  However, "File
not found" generally only applies to the applications which request the
use of that file, and so is best handled by the application.

> >  The only example I can think of is an error that is
> > known to be in response to a user-invoked action (as opposed to a
> > programmatically invoked one), where the error affects the operation of
> > the entire system.

> OK, but I have shown that in order to automate actions, you need to do
> some programming. Let's hope that everything that is done on a
> computer is in response to some user-invoked action. A typical
> example is that a batch program is invoked by an operator/user.
> If the program finds a file missing, then it might be because the
> operator has forgotten this step in the process, and will be
> prompted (not necessarily via a dialog box!) to make the file
> present. This is definately in response to a user-invoked action.

Well, yes.  Though a GUI application and a batch program are both
user-invoked when you get down to it, their modes of interaction with a
user are totally different.  Thus, I think the correct action to take
in many cases would be to simply notify the process of the exception,
so that it may request user assistance (if necessary) through means
commensurate with its mode of operation.

> > For example, if the user initiated a reboot from
> > the console, and something went wrong, _then_ it would be appropriate to
> > send a dialog to the console requesting intervention.  But in precious
> > few other cases is requiring human intervention a universally
> > appropriate action.

> And since you say "universally appropriate action," I don't disagree.
> But that is never what I said. What I have been saying is give the 
> user/operator the chance to intervene "when appropriate." 
> This is particularly important in concurrent, mission critical systems 
> that must provide 24x365 operations.

In concurrent, mission-critical systems your suggestion has greater
weight.  It is more important that all errors are handled in some way,
even possibly inappropriate ways, and that certains classes of errors are
always immediately brought to the attention of an operator.  However,
I think that greater flexibility for PC- and workstation-class usage.
Servers also operate under conditions where operators are often not
available at all times, and must be capable of a high degree of autonomy.
That is where is may be best to have applications deal with errors, as
they have the greatest capability to make intelligent decisions about
error-handling without the need for human intervention.  Of course,
the user/operator _should_ be given the chance to intervene "when
appropriate", as you say; I'm just questioning whether the OS should
decide "when appropriate".
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 03:56:53 GMT
Organization: Experts, Inc.
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David Young  said:

 John De Hoo wrote:
>: BBSs have nothing to do with it. Many of us just find it easier to
>: deal with news on our own drive, so we can easily go back through
>: threads, watch threads, ignore threads and so on. Anyway, accept the
>: fact that it is a legitimate application area that needs to be well
>: supported on any platform that expects to have a broad, worldwide
>: following.
>
>I think you're totally overlooking INN. You can run an entire newsfeed
>to your home machine on NEXTSTEP, which means that the spool is saved
>locally to your hard drive. Imagine this scenario:
>
>You only read news once daily, so you set up INN to open a feed connection
>to your provider nightly at 3AM, when phone bills are low. pppd picks up
>on the network request and automatically dials up your ISP, and after
>the transfer is finished, hangs up after a few minutes idle time.
>The next morning you read news over breakfast from the local spool.
>Because you're so cool, you've set up an autodecoder for alt.binaries.fonts,
>which passes the AFM fonts on to a conversion utility by way of a shell
>script, and copies them to /LocalLibrary/Fonts.
>
>If this isn't solution enough for you, I don't know what would be.

Many of us who use offline readers, you will notice, respond to posts
frequently throughout the day. We don't simply dump an entire news
feed into a hard drive and use that.  Here's my own scenario:

I have a bunch of groups that I "subscribe" to. Whenever I feel like
taking a break from translating, I do a "Get new headers in subscribed
groups" with Forte Agent.

Agent dials up my provider in Japan, logs on to a news server in the
U.S. and updates the headers. At the same time, it marks articles
using its filters. If a thread is marked "Watch," all its bodies are
downloaded. (Other filters decide which threads to ignore, which
authors to skip, which authors or key words to mark for downloading
later, and which ones to download immediately.) After it downloads
everything it is supposed to, it disconnects.

I can then proceed through the downloaded articles in various ways. If
I just want to see the downloaded bodies, I press the space bar or
"B". If I want to see the new headers as well, I press "N"
progressively. If I see a topic that interests me, I mark the header
and download it next time.

So this is a process that can be repeated any number of times during
the day. I don't have to download a lot of bodies I'm not interested
in, and I can keep up with the latest additions to threads just as you
do.

The main advantage of this over online reading is that it minimizes
online time (and thus expensive phone bills), but it still gives me
the same flexibility as someone reading on line. 

How is your INN setup for the above scenario?


------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 6 Mar 1997 05:02:45 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.programmer John De Hoog  wrote:
: Many of us who use offline readers, you will notice, respond to posts
: frequently throughout the day. We don't simply dump an entire news
: feed into a hard drive and use that.  Here's my own scenario:

I haven't noticed. However, you could have INN update much more 
frequently if you liked, or on command. What you basically are doing
is dumping an entire feed to a hard drive; you're picking certain
groups (a feed doesn't have to be large) and spooling them for download.

: I have a bunch of groups that I "subscribe" to. Whenever I feel like
: taking a break from translating, I do a "Get new headers in subscribed
: groups" with Forte Agent.

Okay, so you have your active file set to the groups you pay attention to.
You invoke your update command manually. Same thing.

: Agent dials up my provider in Japan, logs on to a news server in the
: U.S. and updates the headers. At the same time, it marks articles
: using its filters. If a thread is marked "Watch," all its bodies are
: downloaded. (Other filters decide which threads to ignore, which
: authors to skip, which authors or key words to mark for downloading
: later, and which ones to download immediately.) After it downloads
: everything it is supposed to, it disconnects.

INN doesn't pick thread by thread, as far as I know. You could probably 
modify the script to do this. Outside of binaries groups, though,
it's not entirely a huge deal. Articles compress very well.

[relatively simple client side features deleted]

: So this is a process that can be repeated any number of times during
: the day. I don't have to download a lot of bodies I'm not interested
: in, and I can keep up with the latest additions to threads just as you
: do.

Well, your Agent is doing a lot of the picking for you. On high traffic
groups, this is probably okay, but I don't really trust overcomplicated
AI outside of "ignore all messages from Lawson English".

: The main advantage of this over online reading is that it minimizes
: online time (and thus expensive phone bills), but it still gives me
: the same flexibility as someone reading on line. 

*shrug* Works for you, I guess. I put a higher value on interactivity.

: How is your INN setup for the above scenario?

It's not my setup, like I've said before; I read news from home by
slogin'ing to my workstation at the office and running tin. It's a
possible setup with the freely available tools for UNIX.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: scrmac@uslink.net (Andy Griffin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 21:14:34 -0600
Organization: TDS Telecom - Madison, WI
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 wrote:

> On 4 Mar 97 17:13:50 -0600, "Jay Riley" 
> wrote:
> 
> >>
> >>------------------------
> >>To receive the Rhapsody Developer Release you need to join the Apple
> >>Developer Program  and make sure all the forms you
> >>need to receive prototype software are complete, in order to receive
> >>developer releases. The Apple Developer mailings only have released
> >>software in them, not developer releases or other prototype software.
> 
> That sounds fairly expensive to do. You'd think Apple would want
> as many beta testers and early adopters as possible. This is
> dissappointing, to say the least.


It seems to me that the Apple Developer's Associates Program costs
US$250/year. I don't know what your resource situation is like but is
sounds reasonable to me.

--
Andy Griffin          scrmac@uslink.net
Lead Programmer       Any opinions expressed are not necessarily my own.
Rabid Rhino Software  Proud owner of a crappy web page
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From: "Eric A. Dubiel" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 23:28:28 -0600
Organization: Instructional Technology Services & Smith NET-Illinois State University
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L. Todd Heberlein wrote:
> 
> FYI, I got the following information back from Apple regarding getting
> access to the Rhapsody Developers Release:
...

You've got to wish they'd provide this developer/alpha/beta versions for
FREE to Educational users!!!!  But that'd make too much sense.
-- 
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
mailto:eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu  
ytalk eadubie@138.87.201.11  MIME, SUN, NeXT, PGP Mail ok 
R&D---Instructional Technology Services----Illinois State University
"NEXTSTEP is probably the most respected software on the planet" 
- Byte Magazine
ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED REPRESENT MYSELF ONLY
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From: jjens@primenet.com (John Jensen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 5 Mar 1997 18:26:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
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sschaper@inlink.com wrote:

>On 4 Mar 97 17:13:50 -0600, "Jay Riley" 
>wrote:

>>>
>>>------------------------
>>>To receive the Rhapsody Developer Release you need to join the Apple 
>>>Developer Program  and make sure all the forms you 
>>>need to receive prototype software are complete, in order to receive 
>>>developer releases. The Apple Developer mailings only have released 
>>>software in them, not developer releases or other prototype software.

>That sounds fairly expensive to do. You'd think Apple would want
>as many beta testers and early adopters as possible. This is
>dissappointing, to say the least.

Why not an 800 number and twenty bucks to cover media cost?  Is there
any way that could hurt Apple?

We're only talking the beta version after all, and just about everyone
would buy in on the final release.

John

BTW, if you'd like a free copy of the SCO Unix development system (for
non-commercial use) just web over to www.sco.com and they'll send it
out.  (They charge $19 dollars to cover media cost.)

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From: goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu (Lloyd Goldwasser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Clipping path around a rotated image from an eps file
Date: 3 Mar 1997 19:46:59 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
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mmalcolm crawford  wrote:
> On 02/27/97, Lloyd Goldwasser wrote:
> > I'm trying to look at a rotated image from an eps file, and I'm
> > encountering some clipping path behavior that's puzzling (and
> > undesirable).
> > 
> > The following
> > 
> >       id epsImageRep=[topImage bestRepresentation];
> > 
> >     [self rotate:topAngleInDegrees];
> >     [epsImageRep draw];
> >     [self rotate:-topAngleInDegrees];
> > 
> > draws the image with the specified rotation, but, for some reason,
> > the clipping path doesn't seem to be aware of the rotation of this
> > image.  The upper wedge of the rotated image lops out of its view
> > onto the rest of its window, which isn't, um, attractive behavior.
> > 
> I'm afraid I don't quite understand your problem, so I may be way off here;
> 
> is there any reason that the View should know in advance that its
> coordinate 
> system will be changed so that it should allow "extra space"...
> 
> Have any of the View's superclasses been sent a setClipping:NO message?
> 

Thanks for your reply; sorry for not being clearer.  Maybe this will
help...

I'm rotating an eps image relative to horizontal, say, about 10
degrees; the above lines do the rotation OK.  However, the rotated
image doesn't respect the clipping path of the view, but goes out
onto the rest of its window.  I get something like this:

                                     ____--\
the top of the               ____----       \
eps image --->      ____----                 \
                  --------------------------------
                  |                              |
the view --->	  |                              |
                  |                              |
                  |                              |
                  --------------------------------.

Yet the image shouldn't go out of its view at all!

I do resize the view according to the angle of rotation, so the view
is large enough to hold the image.  The view itself is within a
ScrollView, since the whole shebang may be too large for the screen.
The ScrollView handles the resizing of the view without any problems,
adjusting the scrollers and so forth.  Interestingly, the rotated
image _does_ know something about the scrollview's edge, since the
_left_ side of the image always respects the left side of the top of
the view, even when part of it is scrolled out of view.  It's only
the right side of the image that flops out.

I've tried specifying a different clipping path during this drawing,
for instance, rotating it in the opposite direction to compensate.
What I've found is that changing the right side of the path doesn't
have _any_ effect, while changing the left side does affect the
amount that gets displayed.  Lowering the top of the clipping path on
the left shaves off a bit of the top the image all the way across.

In other words, only a subset of the image may be drawn, but that
subset is _always_ a (rotated) rectangle.  By changing the left side
of the clipping path, I can change the height of that rectangle, but
I can't stop it from flopping out of the view unless I make the
rectangle so short that it leaves blank spaces within the view.

I haven't send any  setClipping:NO  messages; is there any reason to
think that something would be doing so behind my back?  I've tried
inserting  setClipping:YES  both when this object is initialized and
right before this bit of drawing, but neither had any effect.
Similarly for such messages sent to the superviews.

Any insights...?

Thanks,

Lloyd Goldwasser
goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu
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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 07:41:54 GMT
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On Wed, 05 Mar 1997 23:28:28 -0600, "Eric A. Dubiel"
 wrote:
>
>You've got to wish they'd provide this developer/alpha/beta versions for
>FREE to Educational users!!!!  But that'd make too much sense.
>

Why ?

Please. I'd like somebody to explain why Apple should give free 
development tools to students IN PREFERENCE to other groups
of people. 

Myself, I think they should buy the list of recent attendees from
Rational's courses (or Lockheed's ACC courses or call up Software
Development '97 and get the names of people who will be attending 
the advanced developers track or...)  and send *those* people free
copies. Experienced developers who are designing software and 
have budgets to spend on training and development tools are 
the people they should be targeting.

Not the kiddies who, if they get lucky, will someday be entry-level
coders. 


Cheers,

Andy
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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:01:59 +0100
Organization: Syndetics Research
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Mark Bessey  wrote:

> Diana McPartlin  writes
> > So OPENSTEP is a framework that looks like an OS, but which is actually
> > an implementation of OpenStep API on top of other OSs (even though Mach
> > isn't exactly an OS but let's just say it is to avoid getting even more
> > complicated). 
> 
> Not exactly. OPENSTEP is either: "The complete Mach/BSD operating system,
> and the OpenStep API libraries and runtime environment" or "A set of
> OpenStep libraries and runtime environment for Windows", depending on
> which product you're referring to. You get a lot more software with  
> OPENSTEP for Mach than with OPENSTEP for Windows.

Mark,

I'm glad someone from Apple/NeXT jumped in. 

"OPENSTEP is either".

This is a real problem and is exactly what I was saying and which
i.m.h.o. is confusing. OPENSTEP for Mach *is* the OS, while OPENSTEP for
Windows NT is a framework (delivered in the form of libaries and a set
of APIs) on top of an "host" OS (or should that be a "client" OS ;-)).

> I hope this helped a little bit. I don't think you'd want it explained in
> the words I'd use for a Fortune editor, though :-) Those guys are really
> starting to irritate the hell out of me lately...

As I said before, exactly for the benefit of simple folks like current
Macintosh users/developers ;-), but especially Fortune Magazine editors,
Wall Street Journal reporters, and someone-help-us-over-the-bridge
financial "analists" etc., the distinction between these two need to be
phrased in a simple unambiguous way asap. Hopefully Apple will deal with
this. I think it's important.

Luc

P.S. I think the whole concept of the OPENSTEPLIB (I call it that in
wait for a better name) is a stroke of genius, one that few people seem
to grasp the potential of. We wouldn't even need a OpenStep/Intel. If
Apple can continue this (keeping the lib and api in sync with the real
OPENSTEP OS) and maybe (hopefully) porting it to every other OS in the
world, Apple developers gain an enormous competitive advantage. I am
really excited about this! We could deploy all our software on all
platforms, just by using the new Apple development environment. If that
doesn't leverage more sales of Apple computers as the preferred
development solution, I don't know what will. I don't even dare to
imagine how this could evolve over time, when most computers out there
will be equipped with this OPENSTEPLIB...! Can you? 
Now, if only Apple would turn this ugly ULTRA-FAT-Binary technology into
"Slim-Binaries" by utilising Semantic Dictionary Encoding, they could at
the same time and in one fell swoop pull control over the internet from
under Microsoft as well (OK, Microsoft doesn't yet control the Internet,
but they have every intention of trying to get it).

What an exciting year we have ahead of us!

Luc 
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:26:38 GMT
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In <<33190835.19824536@nntp.ix.netcom.com>>, 
apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Feb 1997 03:55:20 GMT, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
>(James M. Curran) wrote:
>>
>>	It's also interesting that you choose a sort algorithm in your example
>>of where Obj-C is an improvement of C++
>>

>Interesting example of cluelessness. The use of sorting was 
>*incidental* to the main point. 

	I was aware it was incidental to the mainpoint, which is why I dealt
with it in a separate message than the one where I discussed that
other matters a the main point.

	However, you will recall that I asked for a "real-world" example of
where ObjC is better than C++, and that was his immediate reply.
Hence, it can be assumed that he is using ObjC to do the sort in eral
code, which makes my comments relevant.

>>[discussion of speed differences omitted]

>Let's make this clear. C++ can make method invocations 
>faster. Compile-time binding buys you that one and NOBODY 
>denies it (or, at the very least, nobody competent denies it).
>So, in any serious discussion of language benefits, we can 
>acknowledge that one and move on. 

>Because, really, it's irrelevant.  Because it's *local* optimization.
>And bad performance, in almost every piece of code I've ever seen,
>has been an *achitectural* issue. 

	True enough for the most part, ANd it would be completely true, *if*
there were just a few instances of localized bad optimization.  But
with ObjC these ineffeciency are pandemic.  It becomes an
architectural issue.

>And it's at the architectural level that Objective-C is almost 
>obscenely beautiful. It's a language that supports programmers
>over an application lifecycle.

	But, only if you are willing to put up with widespread ineffeciency.
I doubt most programming will.  I suspect that for the major of ObjC
code, classes are used for only the most heavyweight object -- just
the places where it's advantages outweigh it's shortcoming -- and fall
back on straight C for the rest.  This would be an architectural
problem.

	I can't see ObjC programmers writing "light-weight" objects in the
manner C++ programmers do:  For example, a C++ program will often have
one or more class with NO memeber data, and all its methods inline --
technically, it doesn't exist -- but it does model a concept, and is
useful.

>In a recent paper (_Acyclic Visitor_), Robert Martin (editor of
>C++ Report), said the following: 

>	"When recompiles take too much time, developers begin to 
>	take shortcuts. They may hack a change in the 'wrong' place,
>	 rather than engineer a change in the right place; simply
>	 because the 'right' place will force a huge recompilation."

>[NB: he's arguing that dynamic_cast<>, a dynamic extension to C++,
>is a good thing].

>I would take his argument a step further. We need to to make
>refactoring, restructuring, and extending classes as painless as
>possible. Otherwise, over the course of an application's lifetime, 
>large-scale crap is going to happen and --guess what-- all the local
>optimizations in the world won't prevent the program from flat out
>sucking. 

	No we don't need to make "refactoring, restructuring, and extending
classes as painless as possible"  for exactly the reason you state.
If you can change the properties of a class willy-nilly, you destroy
type safety, and lead to programmers making the quick hack in the
wrong place which is what you are tryng to prevent.   If anyone can
change a class, then suddenly it's internal implementation must be
frozen.  Otherwise, changing the original could break any of the local
extenstions.  With C++, changes to the class must be made in one
place, so that all users of the class are using the exact same class,
and any change to the internal implementation will be able to include
ALL the methods of the class.

	Then we have the ObjC method of defining things as "id" and then
casting them to what they really are.  This is exactly the type of
"quick hack" that leads to architectural failure.

	So, basically, you have the right goal; you're just on the completely
wrong path toward it.

>And, to quote RM again (he's not an idol of mine, but quoting the 
>editor of C++ Report seems tactically sound)

>	"Our goal is to build software that is easy to maintain. That
>	is easily changeable. That does not cause lots of rework when 
>	simple changes are made."

>Rephrased: "Our goal is to support the programmer."

>Does C++ support the programmer at all ? Of course not. It wasn't
>a goal of Stroustrup's (cf: _The Design and Evolution of C++_, section
>1.1 and chapter 2) and it hasn't been a major concern of the ANSI
>committee. 

	Funny you should mention D&E, since I was just about to recommend it
to you. I assume you got passed the second chapter.  If so, you'll
recall such statements as "Maintainability.. of systems written in C++
is most important than keeping the language definition short" (section
4.2)  and "Had design decision systematically favored simplicity and
elegance over compatibility, C++ would today have been much smaller &
cleaner.  It would also have been an unimportant cult language."
("Unimportant cult language" pretty much describes ObjC, doesn't it?
And, I suspect, three years from now, it will also describe Java(tm))

>Objective-C, while far from perfect, makes for much more habitable 
>code. 
	Then how do you explain my previous example (full version earlier in
this thread):
	C++:
	for (int i=0; i
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In <<5fa9bm$pv6@newsb.netnews.att.com>>, 
gupta@tlctest.mt.att.com. (Arun Gupta) wrote:

>>> Apple Of His Eye
>>> By Eric Nee
>>> March 01, 1997
>>> 
>>> http://www.upside.com/texis/columns/qa

>Remember JdH gleefully (mis) quoting an article to claim that
>Gil Amelio said that the MacOS is a mess.  Well, here is
>another quote :

>Amelio :

>I do not think, as good as Windows 95 is, that it's as good as System 
>7. There's only one real measure, and that is productivity. What 
>you want out of an operating system is for it to be transparent. 
>To the extent that the computer is not invisible, that you have to 
>tend to its care and feeding, the management of it and so forth, 
>that's a distraction from what you're trying to create. We come closer 
>to the ideal model of making the computer more transparent than the 
>other guy. Will we always have that advantage? I don't know. They've 
>come a long way in the last decade. I don't think they're there yet. 
>We have to challenge ourselves to try to keep putting some distance 
>between us and them.

>End quote


	At this point it should be noted that MS has studies which show that
people who haven't used either system before, become productive faster
on Win95 than on a Mac.

	Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
Win95 upon first seeing it.


       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:26:31 GMT
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In
<>, 
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) wrote:

>You went off on a tangent to the original issue. ObjC is dynamic, C++ is
>static. The algorithm is irrelavent. If you have a on object in ObjC that
>doesn't implement a necessary method, you can easily add one with a
>Category - even without source code. In C++ you are SOL.

	There is no technical reason adding new methods to existing code
couldn't be done in C++ -- except that the designers of C++ realized
that this is a violation of type safety, and specifically disallowed
it.  What is the point of declaring a data member or method of a class
"private" (or "@private" in Obj-C), if any function can declare itself
part of the class and gain access to it?   It is particularly
important to restrict yourself to the public interface of a class when
that class is defined in a third-party framework (as is the case in
the example we were discussing), because it's quite possible that the
private interface would change upon the next release (in which case,
you'll be the one SOL)


>> 
>>         Array MyArray;
>> 
>>         sort(MyArray.start(), MyArray.end());
>> 
>>         "sort" is part of (soon-to-be) Standard C++ library, and is provided
>> as a template.  Which means that from just the lines I gave above, the
>> compile will build an sort function customized to the needs of MyArray

>It will not be customized. It will create a copy of the sort function
>which uses appropriately typed interfaces. No other optimization occurs.

	Yes, they do, particularly when inline functions are used. (In C++,
most member access & comparison functions are defined as inline).  For
example, given the following silly code:

#include 
class A
{
	int	x;
public:
	A(int y) { x = y;}
	int Minus5() {return (x - 5);}
};
template  void DoIt(T x)
{
	if ((x.Minus5() - 10) == 0)
		printf("It was 15\n");
	else
		printf("It was not 15\n");
}
void main()
{
	A	a1(15);
	A	a2(20);
	DoIt(a1);
	DoIt(a2);
}

	the code generated would be EXACTLY as if I had written it as:
void main()
{
	printf("It was 15\n");
	printf("It was not 15\n");
}

	with ALL other processing optimized away, for a total of 27 bytes of
code.  (Yyes, I just wrote and compiled that using Microsoft's Visual
C++, and if you'd like, I'll email the assembler output of it)

>> (which I've defined here as an array of Thingee's).  The cool thing
>> here is that if Thingee has on inline operator< (comparison function),
>> and operator= (copy function)  (most object have the first, many the
>> second), the generated sort function is remarkable effeicent since

>and if it doesn't? And you don't have the source code? Or if you aren't
>sure it implements operator= and you just call it anyway (the compiler
>will automatically generate a bitwise copy, hope your class didn't contain
>any pointers!)

	If the class doesn't have an oper= and oper<, you can't use the
standard library sort() function, so you have to write you own--which
is what you'd have to do in ObjC anyway.  (And, BTW, how are you
planning to do that -- if you don't have the source code???)

	As for the rest of your worries...(no oper= when the class uses a
pointer).  If the class does use a pointer, the class designer should
have included a oper= (and a virtual destructor) -- this is
Programming 101 stuff.  If he didn't, he's an idiot, and you shouldn't
be using his class -- there are probably many more bugs in it.
OTOH, if he did design it properly, but for some reason, just doesn't
want objects copied, he should have declared the oper= private, which
would prevent you from using it (and prevent the compiler from
creating a bitwise copy function), so again, no problem.

>> it's build as if those functions were coded right there.  It has been
>> show to be up to 50% faster than C qsort() function, (which must make
>> a call through a function pointer for comparisons, and use memcpy()
>> for copies).  Since Obj-C's function calls are even more costly, the
>> difference here between C++ and Obj-C could probably be a full order
>> of magnitute.

>Code that truly is speed sensitive should not be written in either. If you
>are willing to pay an abstraction penalty, ObjC (or more specifically a
>dynamic runtime) is better. 

	Wait -- you're saying that if I want it fast, I should code the sort
routine for a array of C++/ObjC objects, for which I do not have the
source code --- in ASSEMBLER???? That's crazy.  Besides taking months
(instead of the 30 seconds it would take to write the one line in
C++),  it would certainly fail the next time the framework was
updated.

	And beside, there's no reason to.  In C++, the generated sort routine
would be as fast as the assembler.

>Not to mention the fact that since templates and template functions
>generate an entire copy of the class or function each time you use it,
>code bloat goes way up. So in a real life application liberal use of
>templates will probably backfire due to cache overflow and excessive VM
>paging.

	This is not quite accurate.  The template generated code is included
once per executable, not once per use (ie, if you sort an array in
five different spots in your program, only one copy of the sort
function is produced). It would generate separate functions if you
used it on different object.   But in your example, you would have to
write separate functions for each class anyway, so what's the
difference?  (Other than C++ passing the work on to the compiler
instead of the programmer)

>I'm agnostic on the language issue, but templates are an evil abomination.

	Templates allow you to do truly amzing things in programs, giving you
all the design speed & ease of the latest RAD development system,
without the code bloat and interpetive layers they add.   I suggest
that you attend an advanced level course (or at least a seminar) on
the use of C++ templates.  You'll realize that they are the future of
programming.....


       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 21:58:02 GMT
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In <<5fbln2$31e$3@news.xmission.com>>, 
don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:

>This would only be true if the Objective-C programmer were an idiot.
>You use the runtime to attach the custom sort method to the object
>and then you write your sorting algorithm in a way which bypasses
>the runtime (trivial to do--search Dejanews for examples).  The only
>time you have to take a runtime hit is the initial call to the sort
>function, which is probably only called once.  Let the runtime do
>the flexible binding and then optimize your internal code, and you
>can actually do quite well.  At least as good as qsort, anyway...
>and maybe better if you're clever.


	I'm not exactly sure what you are refering to here, but I think we are
talking about two different things. So, let me give an example of what
I'm talking about, and let's see if we're on the same page:

	At the core of any sort function, there's a line which looks like
this: (psuedo-code)

	if x < y then swap x & y

in C++, this could be written as (T is the data type of x & y)

	if (x < y)
	{
	      T	t = x;
	      x = y;
	     y = t;
	}	

This assumes that Class T has operator< and operatror= defined.
inwhich case it would be the same as:

	if (operator<(x,y)
	{
	     T  t(x);	// ctor call
	    operator=(x,y);
	    operator=(y,t);
	}

I believe the equilvant ObjC code (in it's simple, obvious form) would
be something along the lines of:
	if ( [x lessthan: y] )
	{
	   T t;
	      [t init:x];
	      [x copyfrom:y]
	      [y copyfrom:t]
	}
	   
(I've just started learning ObjC, so feel free to correct that)
Now, I believe you are saying that, one can optimize that by looking
up and storing the addresses of the methods lessthan, init, &
copyfrom, and calling them through, essentially, function pointers.
This will naturally be faster than looking them up each time, as would
be the normal case with ObjC, but still (slightly) slower that calling
the functions directly, as would be the normal case with C++.   Also,
I'm pretty sure it'll wreak hell with your syntax, making this fairly
simple function a nightmare for some future maintence programmer to
read.  (I would REALLY like to see the optimizer ObjC code doing the
above the way you suggest)

	But, anyway, it still doesn't address my point about C++. If we had
those defined the class as:
class T { 
	int 	realval;
	char	uselessgarbage[100];
public:
	T(int x) {realval = x;}
	operator=(const T& rhs) { realval = rhs.realval;}
};
inline T operaror<(T&lhs, T& rhs) { return(lhs.realval < rhs.realval)

then the above code is compiled as if it had been written:

	if (x.realval < y.realval)	// inline integer comparison
	{
	      int t = x.realval;		// integer moves
	      y.realval = x.realval;
	     y.realval = t.realval;
	}
with NO function calls at all, and the value of t probably
automatically moved to a register.  IOW, it would do the four
operations shown in less time and space than it would take ObjC just
to pass the operands to the comparison function, regardless of how
that function is than called.

	Next, we have to deal with templates.  With a templatized array sort
function, one can sort ANY type of arrays, including those of built-in
types, with each optimized to the needs of the specific type:

	#include 
	vector	IntArray;
	vector	DoubleArray;
	vector	MyObjArray;
	vector YourObjArray;

	sort(IntArray.begin(), IntArray.end());
	sort(DoubleArray.begin(), DoubleArray.end());
	sort(MyObjArray.begin(), MyObjArray.end());
	sort(YourObjArray.begin(), YourObjArray.end());

  ObjC would need at least three different sort functions, and four if
you needed to specifically optimize for MyClass's vs YourClass's.
With templates, you just create the one templatized sort function
(actually part of the soon-to-be Standard C++ library), and the
compiler will produce the four sort functions, each optimized to the
needs of the class being sorted.

       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 1997 23:13:11 GMT
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In <<5fblc9$31e$2@news.xmission.com>>, 
don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:

>JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
>> In <<5f2avt$fge$2@news.xmission.com>>, 
>> don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
>> 
>> >Of course, InterfaeBuilder is allowing, via the connection 
>> >mechanism, the editing of the selector and target instance
>> >variables.  Because selectors are based on hashed unique
>> >strings within the runtime, it is possible to assign selectors
>> >to the button objects even if there is currently no object in 
>> >the runtime that responds to that particular selector!  This
>> >is what allows you to short-circuit the compile process with
>> >InterfaceBuilder.
>> 
>> 	By "short-circuit the compile process" you mean "delay
>> until run-time" which means instead of waiting just once, you
>> have to wait for this process to be done every time you run it.

>Um, the "wait" is on the order of microseconds...if not nanoseconds.  It 
>isn't like you are recompiling or anything.  You're assigning two pointers, 
>one for the target object and one for the message to send.  Even in C++ 
>you're going to have to at least assign a pointer to the target.  If you use 
>the command pattern, you have to instantiate an object that in Objective-C 
>would be redundant.

	But they will still have to look up the address of the method based on
the hashed selector, before you assign the pointer.  If you know you
will be calling the same method over & over (as with the sort example
we're discussing elsewhere) where the ratio of use to look-up is 20:1
or so, than the lookup time fades to insignificance.  But, for most
methods the ratio is closer to 1:1 inwhich case that time has to be
factored in.

>> 	But that ability is rarely needed in real world applications.

>As long as they don't use a GUI, I agree.  With GUIs, flexibility is 
>paramount.

	Hold it.... You talk for a long time about how this ability is useful
in writing an interpreter -- I usage I already knew about.  And as I
seen very few real world applications that need an extendably
interpreter, I stated " that ability is rarely needed in real world
applications." ie, I refuted your argument before you even made it.
You responded, by stating that this is useful in working with GUIs,
but instead if justifying that statement, you just rambled on with a
pointless and obvious straitjacket metaphor.  So, let us be specific:
What have you done in a GUI, that an average developer or user might
feel the need to do, with IB (or ObjC) that would have been difficult
to do in C++. 


>> In
>> almost all real cases, your button class would know, within a limited
>> range, what kinds of targets it will be sending messages to.  And that
>> can be handled in C++ with virtual functions through a common base
>> class.

>But that means that if your target wants to be a target for multiple
>objects, it must inherit multiple interfaces.  That is a gross
>misuse of inheritance and leads to some of the most garbled class
>"hierarchies" I've ever seen.

	No it wouldn't... That's what the "would know, within a limited range"
part comes in.  All the potential targets would need to be inherited
from a single common base class, which is not an unreason limitation
in a well-designed system.    One could argue it's a REQUIREMENT of a
well-designed system.  (It seems everytime someone argues has ObjC or
in this case, IB, allows you to wrote better system, their arguments
only show how it allows you to hack a bad desigh into a worse design)

>Also, the flexibility of target/action means that the message sent
>to the target can change (ie, which method gets called is alterable).
>Believe me, this flexibility can be used to very good effect.  One
>example is simply that the interface internals are "self documenting".
>When you inspect an InterfaceBuilder connection, there is typically
>no question what it is doing.

>An oversimplified example would be sending -cut: and -paste messages to 
>different objects instead of a -genericPerform: message to both--in which 
>case the target would have to look at the sender in order to determine what 
>is supposed to be done.  If you use the command pattern, you are adding the 
>instantiation of an extra object to provide exactly this flexibility.  The 
>setup/overhad is _more_ than what it would be in Objective-C.  Enough more 
>that it would probably allow Objective-C to be faster than C++ in this case.

	I doubt that... The PasteCommand object as defined in "Design
Patterns" is particularly lightweight -- just a single pointer.  The
"setup" for it is just a single copy -- it could be hard-coded by the
compiler.  Using it would be just a function call through a pointer
(with a single pointer as a parameter).   ObjC would be very hard
pressed to match that in efficency.


       Truth,
       James

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From: igerard@ina.fr (Gerard Iglesias)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 6 Mar 1997 13:39:19 GMT
Organization: INA, Institut National de l'Audiovisuel, Bry-sur-Marne, France
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In <5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com> James M. Curran wrote:
> 	C++:
> 	for (int i=0; i 		B.val(i) = Complex(A.val(i) + A.val(i+1), 0);
> 
> 	ObjC:
> 	for (int i =0; i < bs; i++)
> 		[B set:i :(double)((int)[A val:i] + (int)[A val:(i+1)])];
> 
> 

It's an example where ObjC shows that is not designed to make algorithmic 
computing, that's true. But I think that it's possible to make a better 
version in ObjC of this example :

  for (int i =0; i < bs; i++)
    [[B val:i]  set:[A complexAverageAt:i];

for example, I don't know all the details of your needs.

I work on a project with C++ since 4 years(and before 5 years with Ada), and 
I am responsible of the global architecture of the software (making cartoon 
with computer), in an other side I have a well knowledge of ObjC under NeXT, 
and I make somme works with it. 

What I can say now is that it's very difficult to make simple, powerfull and 
elegant design with C++, in comparison with ObjC. For an example, try to make 
Interface Builder with C++, you can't do that without an automatic generation 
of code(a pre compiler), and even you make this, you will not be able to use 
the full power of the dynamic binding.

The proof of the superiority of ObjC in this area : 8 years after the the 
discovering of IB, you can't see an interface builder in C++ which well 
compares with the original. And the C++ community is very big in comparison 
of the small ObjC community.

In conclusion, If you want to make good object design use ObjectiveC, and if 
you want absolutely use C++ for computation you can because the NeXT compiler 
is an ObjectiveC++ compiler where you can mix the best of the two worlds.

Best regard.

PS: Excuse me but I am a french guy and I don't write very well in English 
language.
--
Gerard Iglesias
Email : igerard@ina.fr
Computer Graphics researcher INA.

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Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 23:21:09 -0600
From: deniseh@filoli.com
Subject: Question about app:openFile:type:
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <857625164.10023@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: deniseh@filoli.com
Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
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It seems that app:openFile:type: is invoked whether I double-click on a
file which my app recognizes or cmd-drop the file onto my app icon.  Does
anybody know if there's a way within app:openFile:type for me to
determine which occurred?  This is important because I need to provide
different behavior depending upon which occurred.

Thanks in advance--

Denise Howard

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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From: "Kevin-Neil Klop" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: STDIN/OUT not working?
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 07:55:30 +0000
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 28
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I've been having a problem with OpenStep/Mach 4.1 as well... it seems like
the stdio-based functions do NOT work correctly.  As an example, a C program
of the form:

void main( int argc, char *argv[])
{
 while( !feof( stdin ) )
 {
    .
    .
    .
  }
}

never gets inside of the "while" loop (i.e. stdin always has an end of file
queued to it).  In addition, ignoring feof(), and just using fgetc( stdin )
and fgets( stdin ), neiother of them seem to ever return a character from
the keyboard.

I compile with a very simple command line:

cc test.c -o test

ARRRGGGGHHHH!  Anyone tell me if this is a common problem or am I just doing
something stupid (and, if the latter, can you tell me what stupid thing I'm
doing? ::grin::)

       -- Kevin --
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From: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Problems with N3DShader class
Date: 6 Mar 1997 16:20:30 GMT
Organization: Ecole des Mines de Nantes
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5fmqse$rd1@wfn.emn.fr>
Reply-To: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
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Keywords: N3DShader

Hi,

I have some problems using the N3DShader class. I work on NS3.3 - SPARC.

My first problem is with archiving N3DShader objects. When I read an  
archived N3DShader object from file, I don t get back the shader name, so  
[aShader shader] replies with NULL !

My question is : can I write to a file an N3DShader object, can I allocate  
and init a new N3DShader object and then read it from the file ? If so, is  
the object usable at once or not ? It seems that it is not so simple !


What I do for reading an archived N3DShader object :

As method -read does not give me back the shader name :
1) I allocate and init a new N3DShader object.
2) I set the shader name with -setShader:name
3) I read the stream

Then, all instance variables of the N3DShader object are there (its name  
too) but it seems that the shader is unusable ! In other words, the shader  
does not look like as it should !

Tired... Are there any undocumented things about N3DShader I should know ?

One more thing, when I free an N3DShader object, my app crashes :-(

Any experience near here with N3DShader ? I will appreciate any help.


Laurent.
 

--
=======================================================
Laurent Champciaux
Departement Informatique - Ecole des Mines de Nantes
4, rue A.Kastler - BP 20722 - 44307 Nantes Cedex 03
Tel: 33 2 51 85 82 18 (B220)	email: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Fax : 33 2 51 85 82 49
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 4 Mar 1997 01:32:17 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.programmer John De Hoog  wrote:
: Thanks for the insults, and thanks most of all for side-stepping the
: specific questions. I now realize, from your answers and from the lack
: of answers to my questions about automatic Web agents, html email
: clients, etc., and from the fact that most of you don't even
: understand the features I've described (e.g., don't understand the
: need of a SOHO user with a dial-up Internet connection and multiple
: providers), that Apple has bought a company with very little chance of
: bringing it into the mainstream.

What's a SOHO user?

I run a NeXT as my home machine as well, which uses PPP to connect to
the Internet, a POP mail transfer agent in conjunction with NeXT's
*fabulous* Mail.app, read news, browse web sites, etc.

You're asking for a specific program. Does NeXT have Eudora? No, but it has
other programs which perform similar tasks, often better, sometimes worse.
If you think that because NEXTSTEP doesn't Forte Agent, it'll never be
a success, then you really are all those names I called you.

: Happy niche-playing!

I'd like to think of myself as an individual. Therefore, my needs are a 
niche; I need to be able to do UNIX systems programming on an OS that's
comfortable to use. There's no better system for be than NEXTSTEP.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: Don Ryan 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 17:06:02 +0000
Organization: Dublin Institute of Technology
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <331EF97A.3C4A@dit.ie>
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Jeffrey S. Dutky wrote:
> I only aquired my NeXT box and got it set up two weeks ago. In those
> two weeks I have made it about 300 pages into the Garfinkel/Mahoney
> book. 

A quick question for anyone who is familiar with this book. As I
understand, it was published sometime around 1993. There's been several
posts about the fact that porting an application written using the
NeXTSTEP API over to the OPENSTEP API is non-trivial. To what extent is
the book based on the older API. A brief response would suffice, as in
one of either:

1. Still worth reading. Some things are different now but the book
doesn't rely on these things too much.

or

2. Contains a lot of stuff you'd have to unlearn. Better off going with
the docs on NeXT's site or one of the new OPENSTEP books.

Thanks a lot.
Don Ryan.
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From: John Jensen 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 6 Mar 1997 07:51:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet (602)416-7000
Lines: 29
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Regarding the cost of the developer program, which will recive the
Rhapsody beta, Andy Griffin  wrote:
: It seems to me that the Apple Developer's Associates Program costs
: US$250/year. I don't know what your resource situation is like but is
: sounds reasonable to me.

I don't know, you might be right, but I've always thought it was a mistake
for OS vendors to treat devleopment tools as a profit center.  I'm sure
there is a component to develper tools that are "extra" and should be
charged for, but I think there is also a component that is pure marketing. 

As an example, I spent last night getting FileReader objects working using
the (free) JDK1.1 from Sun on Win95.  (So I'm already developing Rhapsody
code.)  Where would Java be without the free JDK?

If Rhapsody goes to developers at $250 (plus paperwork), only committed
developers will buy it.  If Apple can build Rhapsody as a platform with
that core group, great. 

If Rhapsody were to go to developers at some "impulse purchase" price, you
would get more applications written and build a better buzz for the final
release. 

When I think about it, treating developers as a profit center _now_ would
be the _final_ stupidity.  Nothing exists in a vacuum, to win Apple has to
first pull developers and then pull users from other platforms.

John

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu,  6 Mar 1997 13:13:59 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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[ ...apologies for quoting a lot, but I need to leave the context in... ]

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 2-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
>         At the core of any sort function, there's a line which looks like
> this: (psuedo-code)
>  
>         if x < y then swap x & y
>  
> in C++, this could be written as (T is the data type of x & y)
>  
>         if (x < y)
>         {
>               T t = x;
>               x = y;
>              y = t;
>         }       
[ ... ]
> I believe the equilvant ObjC code (in it's simple, obvious form) would
> be something along the lines of:
>         if ( [x lessthan: y] )
>         {
>            T t;
>               [t init:x];
>               [x copyfrom:y]
>               [y copyfrom:t]
>         }
>            
> (I've just started learning ObjC, so feel free to correct that)

It would be closer to

    if ([x compare:y] == NSOrderedAscending) {
        T t;
        t = [x copy];
        x = [y copy];
        y = t;
    }

Depending on what T is, -copy might perform a shallow or deep copy, or,
in the case of immutable objects (like a constant string), might not do
anything but return a pointer to the same structure in memory.

However, normally one doesn't have to perform the key-value comparision
and swap items yourself.  For instance, let's say I have an array of
objects, and I want to get a sorted array that I'm going to iterate over
and do something with.  If these are standard objects provided by NeXT,
like NSString, or NSNumber (which provides an object wrapper around
primitive C types), they implement the -compare method already.

If I'm working with my own objects, all I need to do is implement the
-compare method myself and have it take a look at whatever state within
the two objects and return NSOrderedAscending, NSOrderedDescending, or
NSOrderedSame.

From NeXT's docs:

]"- (NSArray *)sortedArrayUsingSelector:(SEL)comparator
]
]Returns an array object that lists the receiver's elements in ascending
order, ]as determined by the comparison method specified by the selector
comparator.  ]The new array contains references to the receiver's
elements, not copies of ]them. The retain count is incremented for each
element in the receiving array.
]
]The comparator message is sent to each object in the array, and has as
its ]single argument another object in the array. The comparator method
is used to ]compare two elements at a time and should return
NSOrderedAscending if the ]receiver is smaller than the argument,
NSOrderedDescending if the receiver is ]larger than the argument, and
NSOrderedSame if they are equal. Sorting using ]this method guarantees
no more than N log N comparisons.
]
]For example, an array of NSString objects can be sorted by using the
compare: ]method declared in the NSString class.  Assuming anArray
exists, a sorted ]version of the array can be created in this way:
]
]NSArray *sortedArray;
]sortedArray = [anArray sortedArrayUsingSelector:@selector(compare:)];"

Note that NSObjects implement reference counting; if you actually wanted
to make deep copies of the objects, you'd do:

sortedArray = [[anArray sortedArrayUsingSelector:@selector(compare:)] copy];

[ ... ]
> Also, I'm pretty sure it'll wreak hell with your syntax, making this fairly
> simple function a nightmare for some future maintence programmer to
> read.  (I would REALLY like to see the optimizer ObjC code doing the
> above the way you suggest)

All you have to do is implement -compare.  You don't have to worry about
looking up the function pointers, or doing anything else, since you can
rely on the basic classes provided with OPENSTEP to implement an n-log-n
implementation that's fast enough for most purposes.

If you wanted to, you could override their implementation with your own
sort implementation if you felt that you had a faster version for the
specific objects you were working with, but you could always fall back
on the one provided with the system if your custom sort doesn't work
right in the future because someone changed the details.

Obj-C code is therefore easier to maintain than C++ code, because you
never have to worry about changing the sorting implementation-- all you
have to do is maintain the code that compares the two objects.

>         But, anyway, it still doesn't address my point about C++. If we had
> those defined the class as:
>
> class T { 
>         int     realval;
>         char    uselessgarbage[100];
> public:
>         T(int x) {realval = x;}
>         operator=(const T& rhs) { realval = rhs.realval;}
> };
> inline T operaror<(T&lhs, T& rhs) { return(lhs.realval < rhs.realval)
>  
> then the above code is compiled as if it had been written:
>  
>         if (x.realval < y.realval)      // inline integer comparison
>         {
>               int t = x.realval;                // integer moves
>               y.realval = x.realval;
>              y.realval = t.realval;
>         }
> with NO function calls at all, and the value of t probably
> automatically moved to a register.

But you haven't actually swapped x and y with that code!  You've just
swapped one instance variable, not the whole objects x and y.

> IOW, it would do the four operations shown in less time and space than it
> would take ObjC just to pass the operands to the comparison function,
> regardless of how that function is than called.

That's because you cheated.  Hell, you could write the same code you did
in Obj-C without using any function calls, either:

If you had this:

@interface T : Object {
    int realval;
    char blah[100];
    // more stuff
}
@end

...and you had some code somewhere, you could do:

    if (x->realval < y->realval) {
        int t = x->realval;
        y->realval = x->realval;
        y->realval = t->realval;
    }

...and get exactly the same behavior and performance of the C++ version.
 After all, Obj-C objects are implemented as C structures, and you can
refer to instance variables directly via the '->' operator instead of
via dynamic messaging if the compiler knows what the object type is or
if you cast the object appropriately.

Assuming you don't cheat and you have to use C++ virtual functions to
access instance variables and perform a real copy, you'll get very
nearly the same overhead that you would using Obj-C methods to access
ivars and do a real copy.

The code for -compare would look like this if you cheat:

-compare:(T) y
{
    return (realval - y->realval);
}


...or like this if you don't:

-compare:(T) y
{
    int result = [self realval] - [y realval];
    if (result > 0) return NSOrderedDescending;   // which returns 1
    if (result < 0) return NSOrderedAscending;    // which returns -1
    return NSOrderedSame;                         // which returns 0
}

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problems with N3DShader class
Date: 6 Mar 1997 18:41:36 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 76
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Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr wrote:
> I have some problems using the N3DShader class. I work on NS3.3 - SPARC.
> 
> My first problem is with archiving N3DShader objects. When I read an  
> archived N3DShader object from file, I don t get back the shader name, so  
> [aShader shader] replies with NULL !

That is strange.  Looking at the source (:-) ) it writes the name to the 
archive.  When it is read back, though, it _is_ read into a temporary 
(different) variable and then in the -awake method a call to -setShader: is 
done.  (-setShader: does a lot of work--you can't just set the string value 
of the shader without doing that work and have the object function 
correctly.)

So, the problem you describe would seem to be possible if you subclassed 
N3DShader and overrode -awake and then forgot to call [super awake].  
Otherwise, I'm not sure you you could get that problem...as long as -awake is 
being called upon unarchiving everything should be OK.

> My question is : can I write to a file an N3DShader object, can I allocate  
> and init a new N3DShader object and then read it from the file ? If so, is  
> the object usable at once or not ? It seems that it is not so simple !

Well, it seems it should be, but I'm not (yet) a complete 3DKit guru.  
Someone with more kit experience may be able to shed some light (ie, if 
someone's done it, they could post a code snippet or describe what they did).

> What I do for reading an archived N3DShader object :
> 
> As method -read does not give me back the shader name :
> 1) I allocate and init a new N3DShader object.
> 2) I set the shader name with -setShader:name
> 3) I read the stream
> 
> Then, all instance variables of the N3DShader object are there (its name  
> too) but it seems that the shader is unusable ! In other words, the shader  
> does not look like as it should !

Try doing the -setShader last.  I don't think explicity calling -awake is a 
good idea, but it does look like calling -awake is where the final setup is 
done--there's a lot going on there.

In fact, how are you trying to archive the object to a file?  Are you using 
stuff like NXWriteRootObject() (I think that's the right spelling. :-)  ) or 
are you directly calling -write:?  The latter is, of course, a no-no.  The 
object writing functions will make sure -awake is being called properly.  
Given the problems you are describing, it really sounds like -awake isn't 
getting called.  (It does a lot more than just the -setShader, which would 
explain why the object was still unusable for you.)

> Tired... Are there any undocumented things about N3DShader I should know ?

There probably are...but I'm not well enough versed in this to be able to 
give details.  Hopefully the MiscKit project will be able to make some good 
enhancements to the documentation.  Since we can't release source, the least 
we can do is try to make the docs crystal clear!

> One more thing, when I free an N3DShader object, my app crashes :-(

I don't see any reason why that should happen...but is this the shader that 
unardhived incorrectly, or just any shader?  The former would be troublesome, 
but the latter should be freeable without any troubles, unless I'm misreading 
the source.  (Which is possible, since I'm not completely intimate with it 
yet--there's a lot there.)

> Any experience near here with N3DShader ? I will appreciate any help.

Well, as I said, I lack experience, but hopefully I was helpful anyway.  :-)

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 6 Mar 1997 13:46:15 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <5fmhr7$ekp@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
References: <01bc284c$b8a07400$882168cf@test1> <331E55D6.71AB@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> <331e71c0.23090973@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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In article <331e71c0.23090973@nntp.ix.netcom.com>, apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) wrote:

> Why ?

> Please. I'd like somebody to explain why Apple should give free 
> development tools to students IN PREFERENCE to other groups
> of people. 

Because students are the ones who can't afford to buy the tools
themselves.

> Myself, I think they should buy the list of recent attendees from
> Rational's courses (or Lockheed's ACC courses or call up Software
> Development '97 and get the names of people who will be attending 
> the advanced developers track or...)  and send *those* people free
> copies. Experienced developers who are designing software and 
> have budgets to spend on training and development tools are 
> the people they should be targeting.

Uh, hello?  "Experienced developers who ... have budgets to spend on ...
development tools"?  Let them buy it then!  Rule #1 of economics:
charge money to the people who can afford to pay it.

Apple does need to get the tools in the hands of as many developers as
possible.  It doesn't really want to give them away to everyone, though.
So if it's going to give something away free, give it to people who
would use the tools but would certaintly not buy the tools otherwise.

Besides, if students can't afford Rhapsody development tools, then where
are companies going to hire new programmers from?  Microsoft makes its
tools quite affordable to students (though not free).  NeXT has always
maintained a strong commitment to academic users, and now all of a
sudden, there are a bunch of Mac programmers who don't know anything
about OpenStep, and a bunch of students who do.  (Students are precisely
the sort of people who will fool around with a new system on a whim, as
they have no engrained commitments to any one platform.)

> Not the kiddies who, if they get lucky, will someday be entry-level
> coders. 

Don't be insulting.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 12:34:55 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 57
Message-ID: 
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In article <5fcnhe$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:

> In <<5fa9bm$pv6@newsb.netnews.att.com>>, 
> gupta@tlctest.mt.att.com. (Arun Gupta) wrote:
> 
> >>> Apple Of His Eye
> >>> By Eric Nee
> >>> March 01, 1997
> >>> 
> >>> http://www.upside.com/texis/columns/qa
> 
> >Remember JdH gleefully (mis) quoting an article to claim that
> >Gil Amelio said that the MacOS is a mess.  Well, here is
> >another quote :
> 
> >Amelio :
> 
> >I do not think, as good as Windows 95 is, that it's as good as System 
> >7. There's only one real measure, and that is productivity. What 
> >you want out of an operating system is for it to be transparent. 
> >To the extent that the computer is not invisible, that you have to 
> >tend to its care and feeding, the management of it and so forth, 
> >that's a distraction from what you're trying to create. We come closer 
> >to the ideal model of making the computer more transparent than the 
> >other guy. Will we always have that advantage? I don't know. They've 
> >come a long way in the last decade. I don't think they're there yet. 
> >We have to challenge ourselves to try to keep putting some distance 
> >between us and them.
> 
> >End quote
> 
> 
>         At this point it should be noted that MS has studies which show that
> people who haven't used either system before, become productive faster
> on Win95 than on a Mac.
> 
>         Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
> used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
> Win95 upon first seeing it.
> 
> 
>        Truth,
>        James

Still waiting for proof on this last point, James.....

The fact that you keep repeating it doesn't make it so. 

Cheers,

-- 
Phil Brewster  

".... if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet". 

-- Scott Adams, The Dilbert Principle [1996], p. 174 
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From: sschaper@inlink.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 20:40:56 GMT
Organization: InLink
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On 5 Mar 1997 18:26:03 -0700, jjens@primenet.com (John Jensen)
wrote:


>Why not an 800 number and twenty bucks to cover media cost?  Is there
>any way that could hurt Apple?
>
>We're only talking the beta version after all, and just about everyone
>would buy in on the final release.

I would definitely do that if available. 

>John
>
>BTW, if you'd like a free copy of the SCO Unix development system (for
>non-commercial use) just web over to www.sco.com and they'll send it
>out.  (They charge $19 dollars to cover media cost.)
>
Doesn't run on PCI PowerMacs, though, does it? I'm already
plannning on getting MKLinux and AfterStep to get used to both
the kernal, UNIX and the other parent of the Rhapsody GUI.
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 06 Mar 1997 12:13:18 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Lines: 28
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pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster) writes:

> In article <5fcnhe$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
> (James M. Curran) wrote:

> > Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
> > used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
> > Win95 upon first seeing it.
> 
> Still waiting for proof on this last point, James.....
> 
> The fact that you keep repeating it doesn't make it so. 

To be honest, even without the proof, I'd find it hard to dispute as
written above.  People who have used a Mac for years are more
comfortable using Macs than if you throw them into a new environment.
That's a far from surprising result, similar to any claim that people
who've been using Win95 since its release are more productive on Win95
than they are on the Mac when first thrown into it.

Do you honestly think that people who have used one system for years
won't be more productive on that system than if you suddenly throw
them onto something else?

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <22496856059808@digifix.com>
Date: 6 Mar 1997 20:42:14 GMT
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.

 Archives are available by ftp at

 ftp://ftp.stepwise.com/pub/Next_Announce_Archives

 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
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 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

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These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
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  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
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                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: STDIN/OUT not working?
Date: 6 Mar 1997 20:51:02 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <5fnanm$m26@news.next.com>
References: 
Reply-To: mark_bessey@next.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: bananajr.next.com

"Kevin-Neil Klop"  writes
> I've been having a problem with OpenStep/Mach 4.1 as well... it seems 
> like the stdio-based functions do NOT work correctly.  As an example, a 
> C program of the form:
> 
> void main( int argc, char *argv[])
> {
>  while( !feof( stdin ) )
>  {
>     .
>     .
>     .
>   }
> }
> 
> never gets inside of the "while" loop (i.e. stdin always has an end of 
> file queued to it).  In addition, ignoring feof(), and just using fgetc( 
> stdin ) and fgets( stdin ), neiother of them seem to ever return a 
> character from the keyboard.
> 
> I compile with a very simple command line:
> 
> cc test.c -o test
> 
> ARRRGGGGHHHH!  Anyone tell me if this is a common problem or am I just 
> doing something stupid (and, if the latter, can you tell me what stupid 
> thing I'm doing? ::grin::)
> 
>        -- Kevin --

Well, I see three problems with your example:
1. The return type of main cannot be void (see the ANSI C spec.)
2. You didn't include stdio.h
3. Your output program is named test, which is the same name as a builtin  
bourne shell command

Since you claim your actual program compiles, we can eliminate #2. And #1  
won't cause any real problems, so...

You aren't REALLY calling your program test, are you? Can you give a  
compilable example? This works fine for me under 4.2, and i've no reason  
to  believe it won't work on 4.1...
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: webboy@webname.com (David)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 13:59:54 -0700
Organization: Webboy Productions
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In article <5fcnhe$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:


>
>        Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
>used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
>Win95 upon first seeing it.
>
>
>       Truth,
>       James

This is complete un-truth James, and you know it. The studies Apple touts
are of cross-platform users. Quit making things up.

-- 
webboy@webname.com
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From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 6 Mar 1997 21:15:30 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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In <331f2b7d.20505173@news.inlink.com> sschaper@inlink.com wrote:
> On 5 Mar 1997 18:26:03 -0700, jjens@primenet.com (John Jensen)
> wrote:
> >BTW, if you'd like a free copy of the SCO Unix development system (for
> >non-commercial use) just web over to www.sco.com and they'll send it
> >out.  (They charge $19 dollars to cover media cost.)
> >
> Doesn't run on PCI PowerMacs, though, does it? I'm already
> plannning on getting MKLinux and AfterStep to get used to both
> the kernal, UNIX and the other parent of the Rhapsody GUI.
> 

No, but it's a good model for Apple to investigate...

If you're a non-commercial user who only needs 1 license, or a single-user
system, why not give it away for evaluation?  If not forever, then what about 
for the first year? or just the first (pre-unified) release?

--
John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design
C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick.

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From: stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: templates
Date: 6 Mar 1997 22:19:11 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
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In <970304072854.198AAFgH.wayne@pareto> joerd@mail.wsu.edu wrote:
> Hello:
> I need some help with templates. Basically, I can't seem to get
> them to work when I seperate the definition (in a .h or .cc) file
> from the construction.  For example, if I have a Main.cc like
> that below I get link errors with unrecognized methods
> Matrix::Print() and Matrix::Set(int num).
> 
> I had read in Practical C++ Programming that putting the command
> 	typedef Matrix MatrixInts;
> at the start of Matrix.cc would solve the problem for the GNU
> compiler but it doesn't seem to work.
> 
> I can make it work by putting the method definitions in the header file
> (Matrix.h)
> 
> I have put the files below in case someone can tell me how to make this
> system work.

Wayne,

the problem you have is not so much with G++ but with templates. The 
templates are a compile-time construct and hence must all be visible in a .h 
file at compile time. Alternatively, you can include the .cc file, too. This 
is a reason why people can't distribute template libraries as .o files -- you 
have to give away the source.

Also, you better use GCC 2.7.2, which you can get from the archives. It works 
fine under my 3.3 system, but I didn't get it to compile & work on 4.1. The 
new GCC will be a part of 4.2 (I have it on 4.2 NT).

Hope it helps,
- Stan
---

Nature photography:   http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~stanj
NeXTmail and MIME:    stanj@cs.stanford.edu

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From: jlimpert@pathfinder.com (john limpert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: web applications
Date: 6 Mar 1997 23:58:08 GMT
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Help.

Where do I get shareware web applications for

email

http

ftp

etc.

newsreader.

thanks
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From: Ian Joyner 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: You're all NUTS!
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 11:00:24 +1000
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Right, we are pretty much on the right track now, so I'll just clarify
a few points:

Nathan Urban wrote:
> 
> In article <331B9F17.4C30@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote:
> 
> > Nathan Urban wrote:
> 
> > > In article <331A0AD3.A0D@acm.org>, i.joyner@acm.org wrote:
> > However, if you
> > read my comments on concurrency carefully, you will realise that
> > many conditions can arise where a process becomes blocked on waiting
> > for some resource, like a file, to be made available. In the concurrent
> > world, this should not be handed back to the process as an exception,
> > but handled by the OS scheduler.
> 
> This is where I think we disagree.  From a concurrency point of view,
> this may be more desirable, but I think that it is the process's
> responsibility to handle something like a resource-not-available error,
> up to and including asking for human intervention by whatever means _it_
> deems appropriate.

In a sense you are correct. This OS code runs as part of the process, so
you get default handling. But then if the application programmer expects
the resource not to be there, they should tell the OS to let it be
their responsibility. But if the application does not handle this,
then the OS scheduler must be able to do something with the process,
and put it in the waiting state. After all the fact that a resource is
not available is not a desirable condition, it halts processing!
The sense that you are correct is that the application can decide 
if it can cope with the absence of the resource or not. 
If not, let then let the OS scheduler
put the process into wait state, until the resource is available.
It is concurrency that has complicated the picture, but concurrency
also provides the elegant solution that applications do not explicitly
have to code for.

> There are many other cases, such as
> batch-processing type operations, where it would be more appropriate to
> just move on.  I think the question here is what the default action
> should be.  You could have two possibilities:
> 
> (1) The OS blocks the processes automatically for resources, and prompts
> for the resource.  Other processes that don't want this behavior can
> override the handler.
> 
> (2) The OS hands the process a resource-not-available exception by
> default, and nothing else.  The process registers a default exception
> handler, and can choose among stock handlers such as "prompt for
> resource" or "null handler" (just move on).
> 
> I like (2) better..  you seem to be advocating (1).

(1) is the concurrent solution. When a process asks for a resource,
and it is not present yet, because it is being produced by another
process, the first process must wait. I like (1) better because
it is the more general solution. In (1) if the resource is non-critical
to the progress of the process, then the process tells the OS about
this, and then it gets the exception back.

Nothing happens by magic, but this is a case of requiring applications
programmers to do less work.

> > >  And especially, a fixed kind of user intervention, such
> > > as a system-standard dialog box.
> 
> > No, you are designing implementations here that I never suggested,
> > except maybe as an example of one of many ways.
> 
> You _did_ suggest that, and that's why I fixated on your suggestion as a
> Really Bad Idea.  I didn't like some of your other suggestions of
> default behaviors either, though I can't quite remember what they were
> now.

OK, I apologise for the misleading example, but it was to give people
who are more used to desktop style operations a feel for what might
happen in their environment. The exact implementation of the user/
operator interface will be different in different environments.

> The capability of providing default error handlers is a good one, my
> main problem is that the defaults used when a process does not register
> its own handler need to be carefully chosen to do as little as possible,
> and in particular should almost never require human intervention.

Right, but as I was pointing out, if you want to set up an operator
free environment, that does not come for free. You have to think
in advance about all the situations that might occur, and provide 
some guideline to the OS of how you want the situation handled.
As I said, operations staff might set up some script which the
OS (or whatever system component) processes to help in decide.
Now this means that your system is handling things that otherwise
you would require each applications programmer to think about, which
they probably won't.

> > It might be a dialog box, but this would not be very convenient for
> > large systems. In large systems this is more likely a list of
> > processes currently blocked, what the condition is, and if and how
> > the operator can help out. Remember this is for coarse grained
> > resources.
> 
> Okay.  I like that much better.  Perhaps you could have an ErrorDetector
> panel, that sets some flag (under Rhapsody, maybe a little marker on the
> Workspace icon) that notifies you of processes it was forced to block.
> Then you can pull up that panel, displaying the information you
> described.
> 
> However, again, I think the OS should tend to avoid blocking processes,
> though perhaps it would be good to give processes the ability to ask
> the OS to block them under specified classes of exceptional conditions.

And this is what a request for a resource from the OS is asking the
OS to do. In concurrent programming, I just want to say: "I need
this resource now," and then the right operation like waiting for
the resource happens without further coding. This is different to
the request: "Is this resource ready, so that I can process it?"
Now you could also program your application to process resources
as they become ready, so you have a loop with a guarded case in
it that picks up an processes whatever resources are ready. Djkstra
proposed non-deterministic constructs to do this a long time ago.
If none of the resources are ready, then the application must go
into wait state. However, the fact that no resources are ready does
not indicate an error that results in an exception in the concurrent
world.

But note that in this case where one process handles several
resources, the opportunity for concurrency is reduced, as the
application can only handle one thing at a time. It is therefore
better to break the application up into smaller units. This simplifies
programming, enhances reliability, as there are less interdependencies,
and maximises opportunities for concurrency.

> My objections were really always toward the implementation rather than
> the concept, though that may not have been clear at first.

OK, I was advocating the concept, giving a few implementation specific
examples, which have turned out to be misunderstood. Sorry to not
have more cleanly separated concept from implementation.

> > Now the way this
> > is done on the machines I am talking about is that the application
> > enables exceptions with an ON statement, for example:
> 
> > ON DIVIDEBYZERO
> > ON ANYFAULT   -- gets anything
> 
> > etc, and attaches the exception to an interrupt handler, which is also
> > in the application.
> 
> So what you are really advocating is just a unified way for applications
> to register handlers for standard OS-generated exceptions, in the form
> of an exception-handling API right at the system-call level, correct?

That is part of the mechanism. If an application does not register it
wants to handle an exception, then it could be a defect in the program.
For example, errors like divide by zero or array index out of bounds
will usually terminate an application. But the application might be
coded to save time by not checking, and letting the underlying run-time
system check. In this case it must register that it wants to handle
the exception, and then recover, or else divide by zero, or bad
array index is a defect.

> > >  Rather than forcing programmers to override the OS's
> > > exception hanlding constantly (which is the whole reason you purport to
> > > like this scheme, as it's supposed to keep the programmer from constantly
> > > worrying about exceptional conditions), the OS should take the minimum
> > > action necessary to prevent fatal errors, and allow the application to
> > > layer on additional error handling if desired.
> 
> > "Fatal errors" are by definition those that will terminate a process.
> > The OS is contracted to provide a consistent environment for
> > applications to run in. Thus the OS should do its utmost to shield
> > applications from environmental failures, not its "minimum".
> 
> I think you misunderstood what I was saying.  I wasn't saying that the
> OS should barely try to prevent fatal errors.  I was saying that the OS
> should do whatever is necessary to prevent _fatal_ errors, but little
> more.  I believe that nonfatal errors should be handed to the
> application to deal with itself, though it should certainly have the
> capability of registering a handler for such an error, so it doesn't
> have to constantly check for an error condition.

OK, I might have misunderstood what you were saying. However, in the
concurrent world, a resource that is not available is not an error,
it is merely a condition, that will at some time be satisfied. An
application should not have to be explicitly coded for concurrency,
that should be the job of the supporting environment.

> > If the applications programmer 'expects' to see certain
> > exceptions, they will have told the OS to ignore them, and pass them
> > back to the application.
> 
> Okay, I see your perspective here.  I just want to say that the OS has
> to be very careful in handling errors that the application didn't expect
> and ask the OS to ignore, so that it does not try to take an action that
> may be inappropriate to that application.

Precisely. And the application will decide and state if waiting on a
resource 
is inappropriate, otherwise implicitly, it will have to wait for the
resource. Actually, we should generalise here and say that the
application
asks for a set of resources, and processes whatever is available or
becomes available first. If the application does not want to lock
forever, but get back to their user with some reassuring message, or
tell them a joke to keep them amused, then the application could
indicate a timeout, and do some default processing there.

> > For myself, I am a systems programmer, and it is my job to provide
> > this kind of systematic support for the applications that will run on
> > top of my software. In that case if I am to write good "middleware",
> > then I should handle exceptions that have to do with the resources that
> > I manage. It is sloppy design to hand these back to my caller.
> 
> Well, I don't know about that.  Going back to the file-not-found
> example..  sure, the OS manages file resources.  But that doesn't
> necessarily mean that it should attempt to handle exceptions that have
> to do with file resources.  The ways in which different callers will
> choose to deal with such an exception vary quite a bit, so in this case
> the best action may truly be to hand the exception back to the caller,
> as the OS simply does not have the knowledge to provide a really general
> solution.

But again, the programming paradigm must be consistent, that is handle
a missing file the same as any other resource. Programming in a
concurrent manner becomes much more complicated if each different
resource is handled in a different manner.

> > > I'm not against handling exceptions on a global, OS-wide level.  I just
> > > think that the OS should attempt to handle exceptions by default in a
> > > minimal way that is appropriate for all processes
> 
> > I think your use of the term minimal is an inappropriate heuristic,
> > as it is too vague:
> 
> > The OS should do what the OS should do, and the application what the
> > application should do. Then you can have design-by-contract over
> > OS interfaces.
> 
> I don't think that's really any less vague, as people disagree over
> which things the OS and the application should do.

You're right: what I said is more vague, but more appropriate!

> > If there is no such handling of the disk full condition, ask the
> > operator, don't hand it back as an exception to the program. That is the very
> > opposite of robust.
> 
> It depends on the class of exception, of course.  "Disk full" is an
> exceptional condition which affects _all_ applications, so is most
> appropriately handled by the OS.  Most applications wouldn't even have
> the access privileges necessary to do anything intelligent in a case
> like that, except for maybe something like backing up their data over a
> network in the expectation of imminent system failure.  However, "File
> not found" generally only applies to the applications which request the
> use of that file, and so is best handled by the application.

Well, there are a whole lot of reasons why a file is not found. In
the concurrent world, it probably means that it is just not there 'yet'.
However, of course the file might be an initialisation file, which if
it is not there the application will use defaults, or maybe create
the file. So in that case the application, says "non-critical resource,
let me keep processing if you don't find it." But the concurrent case
is the general case, the non-blocking case is the special case. It is
simpler for applications to only have to code for special cases. That
is what applications programming is all about!

> > > For example, if the user initiated a reboot from
> > > the console, and something went wrong, _then_ it would be appropriate to
> > > send a dialog to the console requesting intervention.  But in precious
> > > few other cases is requiring human intervention a universally
> > > appropriate action.
> 
> > And since you say "universally appropriate action," I don't disagree.
> > But that is never what I said. What I have been saying is give the
> > user/operator the chance to intervene "when appropriate."
> > This is particularly important in concurrent, mission critical systems
> > that must provide 24x365 operations.
> 
> In concurrent, mission-critical systems your suggestion has greater
> weight.

Well, the concurrent and mission-critical attributes are becoming
desirable at the low end now. In fact that is what Apple buying
NeXT is all about, users want more stability in their systems (while
not sacrificing the famed Mac ease of use. That in fact raises the
natural questions about Unix: is it really robust enough? and 
will Apple retain the ease of use (Unix requires to many guru
mode interactions)?)

>  It is more important that all errors are handled in some way,
> even possibly inappropriate ways, and that certains classes of errors are
> always immediately brought to the attention of an operator.  However,
> I think that greater flexibility for PC- and workstation-class usage.

What I am suggesting, (although this has worked out to be a far more
complex subject than I first thought) is about flexibility. You get
greater flexibility by handling the general (concurrent) cases in
a general way, so that applications programmers can focus on their
special cases. This is much better design.

> Servers also operate under conditions where operators are often not
> available at all times, and must be capable of a high degree of autonomy.

Right, but autonomy does not come for free. You have to work very hard
to work out all the conditions to keep a system going. The OS
passing such conditions back to the program does not help. It is
better that the OS at least logs problems, so that the operations
staff can go back and explicitly handle the problem in their scripts.

> That is where is may be best to have applications deal with errors, as
> they have the greatest capability to make intelligent decisions about
> error-handling without the need for human intervention.

Again, if it is an application problem, hand it to the application,
but as far as overall system operations goes, applications programming
should not be concerned with this complexity.

>  Of course,
> the user/operator _should_ be given the chance to intervene "when
> appropriate", as you say; I'm just questioning whether the OS should
> decide "when appropriate".

By default it has to manually ask for intervention. Automating
these decisions does not come for free, you have to tell the OS
what plug in handler it is going to invoke to handle the
situation. But this comes about by having correctly modularised
systems, and expecting applications to handle such problems
is distinctly unmodular.

I seem to have repeated myself quite a few times in this post, but
I think that is because everything is getting back to the same
general solution, which is good :-)

Thanks again Nathan for a good exchange :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian Joyner       | "for when lenity and cruelty play | All opinions are
Internet email:  |  for a kingdom, the gentler       | personal and are
i.joyner@acm.org |  gamester is the soonest winner"  | not Unisys
                 |       William Shakespeare Henry V | official comment
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 02:05:17 GMT
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On 6 Mar 1997 13:46:15 -0000, nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
wrote:
>
>Uh, hello?  "Experienced developers who ... have budgets to spend on ...
>development tools"?  Let them buy it then!  Rule #1 of economics:
>charge money to the people who can afford to pay it.
>

Rule number 1 of successful marketing: get your secondary products
into the hands of people who can help you sell your main product.

Apple wants to sell computers. Apple wants to Macintoshes. Apple
wants to be a player in the Enterprise market. 

Apple needs to get real world developers using their tools. Apple
needs to seed the market. I can talk til I'm blue in the face about 
how wonderful EOF is, but that's a hill of beans next to having
an architecture person from a potential client to play with the tool. 
Ditto for Objective-C and DO and the AppKit and IB and ........

Gotta get the product into the hands of people who'll be making
the decisions. 

>
>Besides, if students can't afford Rhapsody development tools, then where
>are companies going to hire new programmers from?  
>

If you're a bright student who learned how to program, the rest is
lagniappe for a company. You'll get hired, you'll learn the tools 
being used, you'll learn how to design applications (instead of "write
algorithms," which is the focus of CS degrees). 

This especially true with OpenStep. It's so much easier to use, and 
developers are so much mroe productive in it, that the learning 
curve is simply not a significant issue for entry-level programmers. 

>> Not the kiddies who, if they get lucky, will someday be entry-level
>> coders. 
>
>Don't be insulting.
>

You respect all your cohorts ? How strange. 


Cheers,

Andy
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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
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In article  markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) writes:

   I'm agnostic on the language issue, but templates are an evil abomination.

The semantics of templates in C++ may not be perfect, but the
functionality is very important for many applications.  Maybe you
don't need them in your applications; I do, and, regrettably, while
Objective-C has a better object model than C++, its lack of templates
or similar constructs is a limitation in some applications.

Thomas.

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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 06 Mar 1997 11:27:44 -0800
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In article <5fcngf$7dd@lal.interserv.com> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) writes:

	   There is no technical reason adding new methods to existing code
   couldn't be done in C++ -- except that the designers of C++ realized
   that this is a violation of type safety, and specifically disallowed
   it.

I know the designers of C++ were smarter than that.  It is perfectly
type-safe to add methods to existing classes, which is why you can
actually replace substitute instances of a derived class for instances
of a base class in C++ in the first place.

The technical reason for why it is difficult to add new methods to
existing code in C++ is how method dispatch is commonly implemented
in C++.

The C++ object model made particular tradeoffs between flexibility and
performance, different from Objective-C.  Which tradeoff is "better"
depends on the application.  I think the development of systems like
ActiveX, SOM, and Corba shows that people want more flexibility for
the applications that C++ is being used for, and Lippman in "Inside
the C++ Object Model" also has second thoughts.

Thomas.
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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 01:53:37 GMT
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On Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:26:38 GMT, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:
>
>	But, only if you are willing to put up with widespread ineffeciency.
>I doubt most programming will.  I suspect that for the major of ObjC
>code, classes are used for only the most heavyweight object -- just
>the places where it's advantages outweigh it's shortcoming -- and fall
>back on straight C for the rest.  
>

I certainly don't do that. I doubt anyone else does either. Sometimes
I do write a chunk (say, <100 lines) of "optimized" C-code.  I'd say
that happens once per 20 K or so lines of code. 

The worst reasonable estimate I've ever seen for Objective-C put the
performance penalites at roughly 1.5 times the speed of C++. A more
likely estimate is probably on the order of 1.25 or so.

On the other hand, Microsoft Word (written in C and C++) has an
architectural performance hit that goes off the Richter scale (gotta 
love the dancing paperclip though). 

It goes like this: if we can refactor and restructure our objects and
applications over the application lifecycle, then we get more object
reuse and can avoid the architectural performance hit. Most of the
time, it's worth the 1.25 hit. 

>
>	I can't see ObjC programmers writing "light-weight" objects in the
>manner C++ programmers do:  For example, a C++ program will often have
>one or more class with NO member data, and all its methods inline --
>technically, it doesn't exist -- but it does model a concept, and is
>useful.

Well, go work for an Objective-C shop and learn to write code then. 
Hell, I learned C++ (and wrote a fair amount of C++ code) before I 
ventured opinions on usenet about it. 

I've written stateless objects plenty of times. They're stunningly
useful, especially when they actually exist (rather than just as 
collections of functions).

Rather than get into your prejudices, let me just summarize: 

	Yes, there is a local performance hit.
	No, it's nowhere near as bad as you think. 
	Yes, we do all sorts of cool OO things, including 
		stateless objects and all 23 of the GOF Design
		patterns (and all the patterns from POSA as well). 
	In fact, we can, thanks to the runtime and dynamic language,
		follow OO even more strictly and do things like
		object serialization (e.g. information hiding even
		when making objects persistence). 
	And, even more truly, things like EOF are possible in 
		dynamic languages and not in C++ (trust me--
		going to ODBC and DAO after EOF is more 
		than a little painful). 
	
>
>	No we don't need to make "refactoring, restructuring, and extending
>classes as painless as possible"  for exactly the reason you state.
>If you can change the properties of a class willy-nilly, you destroy
>type safety, and lead to programmers making the quick hack in the
>wrong place which is what you are tryng to prevent.  

This is a religious issue. As opposed to the above, where you are 
misinformed about the cost of the run-time and about standard
practices. 

You like strong typing. C'est la vie. Different strokes for different
folks. It takes all kinds.  Still, I would  refer you to  _Static
Typing and Other Mysteries of  Life_ by Bertrand Meyer (available 
from the ISE web site) . From the paper: 

	"The C++ approach, where you can still 'cast' -- that is to 
	say convert-- a value into just about any type, defeats in
	my view the principle of static typing."

Rather an interesting read. Should be required for those who think 
C++ protects programmers from type errors. 

The flat out truth is that as long as C++ has old-style casts, it 
is *less* safe than Objective-C (which allows for arbitrary
conversion, but also supports object reflection). 

>	Then we have the ObjC method of defining things as "id" and then
>casting them to what they really are.  This is exactly the type of
>"quick hack" that leads to architectural failure.
>

Again, a complete misunderstanding of common practice. Bad
code can be written in any language. Good Objective-C code doesn't
go around, willy-nilly converting types. We use weak typing where
it's beneficial, and strong typing where it's appropriate. 

As to C++'s support for the application lifecycle, I refer you to
Richard Gabriel's recent collection of essays (_Patterns of
Software_).  Let me just add that I have never seen a C++ 
application age gracefully. 


Cheers,

Andy
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 20:10:55 -0800
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In article <5fcngf$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:

> In
> <>, 
> markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> 
> >You went off on a tangent to the original issue. ObjC is dynamic, C++ is
> >static. The algorithm is irrelavent. If you have a on object in ObjC that
> >doesn't implement a necessary method, you can easily add one with a
> >Category - even without source code. In C++ you are SOL.
> 
>         There is no technical reason adding new methods to existing code
> couldn't be done in C++ -- except that the designers of C++ realized
> that this is a violation of type safety, and specifically disallowed

You just said 'there is no technical reason you can't other than the fact
that it is specifically disallowed'. Nice bit o' logic there...

> >> 
> >>         Array MyArray;
> >> 
> >>         sort(MyArray.start(), MyArray.end());
> >> 
> >>         "sort" is part of (soon-to-be) Standard C++ library, and is
provided
> >> as a template.  Which means that from just the lines I gave above, the
> >> compile will build an sort function customized to the needs of MyArray
> 
> >It will not be customized. It will create a copy of the sort function
> >which uses appropriately typed interfaces. No other optimization occurs.
> 
>         Yes, they do, particularly when inline functions are used. (In C++,
> most member access & comparison functions are defined as inline).  For
> example, given the following silly code:
> 

[code example munched]

you can't attribute the benefits of inlining to templates. Other than
inlining, which is an orthogonal language feature to templates, no
optimizations are performed.

>         As for the rest of your worries...(no oper= when the class uses a
> pointer).  If the class does use a pointer, the class designer should
> have included a oper= (and a virtual destructor) -- this is
> Programming 101 stuff.  If he didn't, he's an idiot, and you shouldn't
> be using his class -- there are probably many more bugs in it.
> OTOH, if he did design it properly, but for some reason, just doesn't
> want objects copied, he should have declared the oper= private, which
> would prevent you from using it (and prevent the compiler from
> creating a bitwise copy function), so again, no problem.

Calling the original author all the names in the book isn't going to help you. 

> >Code that truly is speed sensitive should not be written in either. If you
> >are willing to pay an abstraction penalty, ObjC (or more specifically a
> >dynamic runtime) is better. 
> 
>         Wait -- you're saying that if I want it fast, I should code the sort
> routine for a array of C++/ObjC objects, for which I do not have the
> source code --- in ASSEMBLER???? That's crazy.  Besides taking months
> (instead of the 30 seconds it would take to write the one line in
> C++),  it would certainly fail the next time the framework was
> updated.

Is that what I said? Did I mention assembler AT ALL? No. I said if _you_
are _willing_ to pay an abstraction penalty for an *object* *oriented*
sort function, you will be better off with a dynamic version (which can
sort on objects that it didn't even know about at compile time). 

> >Not to mention the fact that since templates and template functions
> >generate an entire copy of the class or function each time you use it,
> >code bloat goes way up. So in a real life application liberal use of
> >templates will probably backfire due to cache overflow and excessive VM
> >paging.
> 
>         This is not quite accurate.  The template generated code is included
> once per executable, not once per use (ie, if you sort an array in
> five different spots in your program, only one copy of the sort
> function is produced). It would generate separate functions if you
> used it on different object.   But in your example, you would have to

But if I want to sort five different types of things, I get five copies of
the same function, which differ only in their type. Talk about efficient.
(not to mention the fact that the spec for templates leaves it up to the
implementor to determine exactly where that code is stored. most
implementations will just shove it right after the section it is first
called from. which means you won't be able to tune your code for cache
usage)

> 
> >I'm agnostic on the language issue, but templates are an evil abomination.
> 
>         Templates allow you to do truly amzing things in programs, giving you
> all the design speed & ease of the latest RAD development system,
> without the code bloat and interpetive layers they add.   I suggest
> that you attend an advanced level course (or at least a seminar) on
> the use of C++ templates.  You'll realize that they are the future of
> programming.....

Oh now this is rich. Does Java have templates? Of course not. Why would
you need them in a dynamic language? Gee, and I thought there was a lot of
momentum building behind that language. Guess all those Jave programmers
really wanted the 90s equivalent of macros...

P.S. I program in C++ professionally, and have done so for many years now.
I thankfully look forward to earning a living writing in a dynamic
language like Java or ObjC.

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 7 Mar 1997 07:21:10 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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Luc Dubois writes
> "OPENSTEP is either".
> 
> This is a real problem and is exactly what I was saying and which
> i.m.h.o. is confusing. OPENSTEP for Mach *is* the OS, while OPENSTEP for
> Windows NT is a framework (delivered in the form of libaries and a set
> of APIs) on top of an "host" OS (or should that be a "client" OS ;-)).

I fully expect that this will be much less confusing in the new world. The  
OPENSTEP for NT product and the Rhapsody OS will have different names, I  
bet.

> If Apple can continue this (keeping the lib and api in sync with the 
> real OPENSTEP OS) and maybe (hopefully) porting it to every other OS in 
> the world, Apple developers gain an enormous competitive advantage. I am
> really excited about this! We could deploy all our software on all
> platforms, just by using the new Apple development environment. If that
> doesn't leverage more sales of Apple computers as the preferred
> development solution, I don't know what will. I don't even dare to
> imagine how this could evolve over time, when most computers out there
> will be equipped with this OPENSTEPLIB...! Can you?

Hey, that's why I'm (still) here. NeXT had some truly great, world-beating  
technology (Objective-C, PDO, EOF, for instance), but they never really  
got the word out. Just the thought of what thousands of creative Mac  
developers will come up with is mind boggling...

> Now, if only Apple would turn this ugly ULTRA-FAT-Binary technology into
> "Slim-Binaries" by utilising Semantic Dictionary Encoding, they could at
> the same time and in one fell swoop pull control over the internet from
> under Microsoft as well (OK, Microsoft doesn't yet control the Internet,
> but they have every intention of trying to get it).

That's an interesting idea, but we'd be swimming against the tide. How  
about this: If we have the OpenStep library on a large % of desktops, and  
an OpenStep-to-Java interface, we can leverage the platform-independence  
of Java with our kick-butt native-code class library...

> What an exciting year we have ahead of us!

Now, *THAT'S* an understatement...

-Mark
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: raise exception !!
Date: 7 Mar 1997 09:09:24 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
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Hi ,

i want to intercept an error that is generated by a raise exception in
an oracle stored procedure !!

In NextStep, the willreport:error: delegate method do that but how can i do 
in OpensStep 4.1 EOF2.0 ???

thanks for your help

YANNICK

-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 02:49:02 -0700
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In article , Stephen Peters
 wrote:

> pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster) writes:
> 
> > In article <5fcnhe$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
> > (James M. Curran) wrote:
> 
> > > Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
> > > used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
> > > Win95 upon first seeing it.
> > 
> > Still waiting for proof on this last point, James.....
> > 
> > The fact that you keep repeating it doesn't make it so. 
> 
> To be honest, even without the proof, I'd find it hard to dispute as
> written above.  People who have used a Mac for years are more
> comfortable using Macs than if you throw them into a new environment.
> That's a far from surprising result, similar to any claim that people
> who've been using Win95 since its release are more productive on Win95
> than they are on the Mac when first thrown into it.
> 
> Do you honestly think that people who have used one system for years
> won't be more productive on that system than if you suddenly throw
> them onto something else?
> 
> -- 
> Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
>       PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
>         "What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K

As a general statement such as you have formulated it in your final
question, it is of course true. 

As a statement about the computer satisfaction study that Evans conducted,
it is false, though James keeps claiming that it is true anyway. 

The study was based on random samplings from dual-platform companies and
from users who had experience on both Mac and Win95. James believes that
since the study was conducted in March-April 1996, these users did not
have a chance to become sufficiently familiar with Win95 to feel
comfortable with it or judge it fairly, which is at least a possibility
(though it is not exactly a compelling argument in favor of Win95 for
productivity or ease of use if it takes that long to get used to,
IMHO....). Yet he further believes for no apparent reason except to prop
up his pseudo-argument that they all used Macs and nothing else for years
before then, discounting for no reason except stubborn blindness all those
dual users who had used Win3.x along with Mac as well as all those who had
used Windows as their primary platform of choice at these companies in the
years before the release of Win95 and before the study was conducted.

In other words, he is falsely generalizing from approximately one-third of
a randomly selected dual-user pool to explain away the results of the
study: results which favored the Mac across the board. 

Of course, if I were a Windows advocate I would probably want to repress
the memory of Win3.x too..... 

In brief: I have shown his generalization to be false in at least two
detailed  posts since January to which James has never responded, though
he has kept repeating his misleading claim about the Evans study once
every month or so since then, typically in the form of brief asides such
as this most recent one and outside the framework of the original thread,
which has been dormant since  January 14 and one of my posts in response
to his claims. Now for all I know, I've been relaxing comfortably in his
'killfile' all this time or his news server 'ate his homework' or he's
been too busy to read everything in this NG on a regular basis, so maybe
none of this has been getting through.....

In any event, thanks for posting, Mr. Peters. Search AltaVista or DejaNews
under 'Evans Research' and you'll probably find the thread leading up to
this from January 11-14 if you're interested. You can also check under
'Evans Study Arguments' for my more recent summary from about a month ago
the last time this happened, but the key points are contained in the
summary paragraph above.  

IMO, the most objective 'ease-of-use' comparison between MacOS and Win95
was conducted by "PC World" in Feb. 1996 (p. 147), since it was a
'blind-folded user' test, which neither the Evans study for Apple nor the
study that Microsoft sponsored in November 1995 were. It's something of a
truism that an experienced user will rate even a Unix-based system as
'easy to use' and/or be able to perform productivity tasks very quickly
even with a <*mock shudder*> CLI, so the fact that the "PC World" test had
users accomplishing the same types of tasks on platforms they had not
previously used made it a more accurate overall test of usability, in my
view, than either the Apple- or the Microsoft-sponsored studies. In all
cases, the people involved in the tests were using one of the other OS'es
as their 'real-world' OS of choice (MacOS, Win95, NT, or OS/2), but were
only asked to evaluate the one they tested on. 

The MacOS was rated more highly by a slight margin than Win95, with both
being  rated more highly than NT or OS/2 -- and  it was experienced
Win95, NT and/or OS/2 users who rated the MacOS thus. 

Of course, the spoiled Mac users too inept to handle a 'technically
sophisticated OS' must have sabotaged the 'ease-of-use' rankings of the
other OS'es out of sheer fanatical hatred of Microsoft and IBM, right,
Wintel and OS/2 advocates?..... ;-) 

Cheers,

-- 
Phil Brewster  

".... if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet". 

-- Scott Adams, The Dilbert Principle [1996], p. 174 
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From: wretched-excess@verbiage.com (John De Hoog)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 10:36:32 GMT
Organization: Look, Mom, I'm On the Internet!
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 Charles William Swiger  earlier said:
>
>An "offline Web browser" is an oxymoron.  It's also IMHO a really stupid
>idea, and the lack of such is no loss.

That may be your opinion, but it is hardly universal. Read this:

April Issue of Internet World Magazine Reviews Offline Web Browsers 

Source: Business Wire 

WESTPORT, Conn.--(BUSINESS WIRE) via Individual Inc. -- As the
popularity of the Internet continues to grow, bandwidth and instant
access have become pressing issues facing users of the Internet.
Internet World magazine looks at the "offline" browsers that offer
access to information, even when someone is not actively on the
Internet.

"Professionals and other users are going to rely heavily on the
Internet in the near future for up-to-the-minute information and other
Web-related business," said Alan M. Meckler, chairman and CEO of
Mecklermedia (NASDAQ: MECK). "These software packages provide a wide
variety of information directly to your PC eliminating the need to
search for URL's."

Internet World's "Speed Browsing" article provides a critical review
of 10 popular offline browsers that work in concert with the two
market-dominating online browsers, Netscape Navigator 3.0 and
Microsoft Explorer. Many of these programs allow users to package Web
pages collected and to export them to another computer for office
presentations or home viewing.

"When you begin to use an offline browser, you also may find that you
are collecting far more material than you need," said Ted Stevenson,
senior editor, Internet World who wrote the article. "An offline
browser will eat up some of your time at first, but in the long run,
it will help you see more of the Web in less time."


-------
John De Hoog, Tokyo
(remove-)excess@verbiage.com
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From: Christian Neuss 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: help me with ppp
Date: 7 Mar 1997 14:24:10 GMT
Organization: Technische Hochschule Darmstadt
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jlimpert@pathfinder.com (john limpert) wrote:
>i have nextstep 3.3 for intel and a pc w/ 28.8 modem.
>
>how do I get a ppp connection to the internet established??

Open Digital Librarian and load /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextAdmin.
Then search for PPP. The manual describes step by step what you
need to do to get connected.

Chris
-- 
//  Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
//  http://www.informatik.th-darmstadt.de/~neuss/
//  fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
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From: droleary@alpha.temporal.org (Doc O'Leary)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 7 Mar 1997 16:16:53 GMT
Organization: University of Minnesota
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On 6 Mar 1997 07:51:01 -0700, John Jensen  wrote:

>I don't know, you might be right, but I've always thought it was a mistake
>for OS vendors to treat devleopment tools as a profit center.  I'm sure
>there is a component to develper tools that are "extra" and should be
>charged for, but I think there is also a component that is pure marketing. 

I feel the same way.  One of the reasons I gave up on the Mac and passed
on NeXT was that I couldn't get cheap development tools.  I am amazed that
developers, who do their part by supporting a platform, are not treated
better.  I'll pay for extras like Interface Builder, but give every user
the chance to program by keeping the compiler free.

>If Rhapsody goes to developers at $250 (plus paperwork), only committed
>developers will buy it.  If Apple can build Rhapsody as a platform with
>that core group, great. 

It wouldn't be so bad if that were the only cost, but if I get back into
Macs I'm going to have to drop an order of magnitude more than that on
new hardware.  It would be nice if Apple worked out some free Developer
+ Final release with the purchase of a new PPC.  Extra points if the
machine is supported by Mklinux (so I can ditch my PC completely).

>When I think about it, treating developers as a profit center _now_ would
>be the _final_ stupidity.  Nothing exists in a vacuum, to win Apple has to
>first pull developers and then pull users from other platforms.

Absolutely.  Every devloper they bring in now gives them more leverage not
only over their new OS, but over every system that OpenStep is on.  If
they play their cards right, Apple can turn NT to their advantage.

         ---------   Doc

-- 
Copyright 1997 by Doc O'Leary.
Author of the wildly unsuccessful "DOS and Windows for People Who
Still Have a Clue"

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From: marc@doublon.unice.fr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Preview PS
Date: 7 Mar 1997 16:29:57 GMT
Organization: University of Nice Sophia-Antipolis
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Hi,
where I can find an example of programmation make the same thing like  
preview with PS multipages (backward, forward between the page of a PS  
document). 

Thanks...
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From: giddings@animas.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Compiling individual component of aggregate project?
Date: 7 Mar 1997 16:51:11 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison
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Using OS/4.1 (both NT and mach) I have a project that consists of a group of 
bundles which I generally want compiled and installed as a group, so I used 
the aggregate feature of Project Builder to group them together.

The one problem with this is I can no longer compile an individual bundle by 
itself.  This is a hassle if, for example, I am making a lot of changes to 
only one bundle and re-compiling it a lot.  Or if I want to change the build 
type of a single bundle to "debug" for use with GDB.  Currently if I change 
build-type, it re-builds ALL the bundles no matter what I do. 

If I go into the directory and double-click the PB.project for an individual 
bundle, it just brings up the aggregate project again.  It even does this if 
I remove the aggregate project's PB.project and makefiles.

Anyone else have experience with this?   I'd like a way to selectively build 
just one sub-project within an aggregate.

I didn't see it in the documentation but maybe I missed it. 

Thanks!


--
Michael Giddings
giddings@chem.wisc.edu 
giddings@barbarian.com
(608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851
http://smithlab.chem.wisc.edu/PersonalPages/giddings/giddings.html
http://www.barbarian.com

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From: sschaper@inlink.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 17:01:52 GMT
Organization: InLink
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On 6 Mar 1997 21:15:30 GMT, jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd) wrote:

>No, but it's a good model for Apple to investigate...
>
>If you're a non-commercial user who only needs 1 license, or a single-user
>system, why not give it away for evaluation?  If not forever, then what about 
>for the first year? or just the first (pre-unified) release?
>
 
Exactly, Apple is up against MacOS and BEOS and needs to do all
it can to get the vast majority of present Mac users to convert.
I think that the developers releases and the first public
release with a solid Blue Box should be free, plus costs,
shipping and handling, like the BSD release you referred to.

Possibly even putting it in magazines.

I would even do this with the Win95 version of OpenStep. For a
limited time only.

Then, future releases, that encorporate QTML and other
technologies into Yellow Box, charge the usual Apple System
upgrade prices for it.

Use the Microsoft plan of grabbing the market with free
products.

Apple has _got_ to get market share for NeXTStep, at least as
much as it presently has with MacOS.


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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:28:50 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5f1qoe$8dp@spool.cs.wisc.edu>, Steve Barnet
<"mailer-daemon"@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

> I don't think it's necessarily impossible, but it will be necessary to 
> change some of the underlying assumptions in the system design. In some 
> cases this may result in changes that are visible to the user. This is 
> not necessarily a bad thing. If the advantages outweigh the disadvantages 
> (in the eyes of the average user), such changes can be accepted with 
> relatively little outcry.

  I doubt the later.  On my Mac a double click opens the correct
application about 80% of the time.  On my NT box it's about 40%.

> If, on the other hand, they would like to penetrate corporate environments 
> and grab an appreciable chunk of the server market, they will have to make 
> some hard choices.

  Agreed.  Who's journaled file system to use?  NeXT doesn't have one. 
Who's system should we use to make Mac files invisible to the OS?  NeXT
doesn't have one.  Who's system to support ACL's?  NeXT doesn't have one. 
Who's system to give guaranteed throughput for multimedia applications? 
NeXT doesn't have one.

  Looks to me like it's a tough choice regardless.

> UNIXish systems dominate the server market 

  The server market is small though, judging by sales of NT server (about
3 million a year).  Even Apple's tiny market share sells about the same. 
They have to please both camps, and FFS isn't the solution.  NTFS may be. 
XFS may be.  I would suggest that the time to choose is soon though.

Maury
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 7 Mar 97 10:19:14
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In article <331f6ea2.1358032@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
	apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) writes:
   On Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:26:38 GMT,
	JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
   >But, only if you are willing to put up with widespread
   >ineffeciency.  I doubt most programming will.

   The worst reasonable estimate I've ever seen for Objective-C put
   the performance penalites at roughly 1.5 times the speed of C++. A
   more likely estimate is probably on the order of 1.25 or so.

   On the other hand, Microsoft Word (written in C and C++) has an
   architectural performance hit that goes off the Richter scale (gotta 
   love the dancing paperclip though). 

   It goes like this: if we can refactor and restructure our objects
   and applications over the application lifecycle, then we get more
   object reuse and can avoid the architectural performance hit. Most
   of the time, it's worth the 1.25 hit.

Rhetorical questions: If you can easily restructure your object
hierarchy, will you?  If a 50% performance improvement requires that
you restructure your object hierarchy, would you rather have a
language which makes such restructuring easy?  Would you rather have a
language which gives you 100% of the theoretical performance on a
given algorithm, at the expense of the flexibility to change to a
faster algorithm?

There are certainly many areas where C++ wins over Objective-C due to
message dispatch overhead.  OTOH, the _vast_ majority of programmers
aren't working in those areas, and this issue is mostly a religious
thing, with no basis in fact.  The message dispatch overhead only is a
factor when you compare identical algorithms.

Objective-C has distinct advantages over C++ in terms of restructuring
your code.  One of the simplest advantages, which C++ advocates claim
is a disadvantage, is the loose binding.  You can make even fairly
radical changes in structure in stages - you don't have to make the
_complete_ changeover from the get-go.  This often allows you to start
the changeover, then measure the advantage, and make the decision
about whether to go forward without much time lost.

I know that (at least in my case) this can make for programmers who
are somewhat more willing to disrupt the current system to get to the
desired system.  I also know that (at least in my case), it _works_.
On one project, it got to be sort of a joke that every six months we
found a 50% performance gain.  While admitting that this was in part
due to excellent design, which allowed us to make big changes in one
part of the code with little effect on other parts, it's also
substantially related to the language designed in.

_Now_ I'd have no problems porting to C++ from Objective-C.  The
project has become very stable, and everything has been optimized
pretty close to perfection.  But during development, Objective-C was
essential, and we couldn't have done it with C++.  [I'll also grant
Smalltalk could have done it with ease, and _perhaps_ Java.]

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: 07 Mar 1997 09:59:56 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster) writes:
> In article , Stephen Peters
>  wrote:
> > Do you honestly think that people who have used one system for years
> > won't be more productive on that system than if you suddenly throw
> > them onto something else?
> 
> As a general statement such as you have formulated it in your final
> question, it is of course true. 
> 
> As a statement about the computer satisfaction study that Evans conducted,
> it is false, though James keeps claiming that it is true anyway. 

Ah.  I misunderstood what was being argued.  Mea culpa.

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 7 Mar 1997 16:27:06 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins
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I1. Still worth reading. Some things are different now but the book
doesn't rely on these things too much.

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Run NeXT on SOM?
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:38:13 -0500
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In article ,
bayleyp@dnc.net (bayleyp) wrote:

>    Any news if Apple will use System Object Model in NeXT? I can already
> compile SOM objects using Obj-C, but I can also choose any other language
> with SOM bindings.

  SOM's a great solution if your current object model only runs on one
machines and you have to talk to others.  In other words it's a good idea
for the current Mac OS.

  SOM's not so handy if your object model already runs on multiple
machines and is shared.  In other words, it's not such a great idea under
NeXT.

Maury
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 7 Mar 97 11:30:23
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In article <5fd190$a7f@lal.interserv.com>,
	JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) writes:
   In <<5fblc9$31e$2@news.xmission.com>>,
	don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:
   >JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
   >> By "short-circuit the compile process" you mean "delay until
   >> run-time" which means instead of waiting just once, you have to
   >> wait for this process to be done every time you run it.
   >
   >Um, the "wait" is on the order of microseconds...if not
   >nanoseconds.  It isn't like you are recompiling or anything.
   >You're assigning two pointers, one for the target object and one
   >for the message to send.  Even in C++ you're going to have to at
   >least assign a pointer to the target.  If you use the command
   >pattern, you have to instantiate an object that in Objective-C
   >would be redundant.

   But they will still have to look up the address of the method based
   on the hashed selector, before you assign the pointer.  If you know
   you will be calling the same method over & over (as with the sort
   example we're discussing elsewhere) where the ratio of use to
   look-up is 20:1 or so, than the lookup time fades to
   insignificance.  But, for most methods the ratio is closer to 1:1
   inwhich case that time has to be factored in.

Measured overhead due to Objective-C message dispatch tends to be
around 10%.  I've measured this in my own programs, other people
measured it in theirs, various research has demonstrated it.  It's not
a big deal.  10% does not make or break a program.

[And as I've posted elsewhere, you can generally make up that 10% due
to the ease of restructuring your program to take advantage of
algorithmic improvements.  If Objective-C allows you to revise your
structure 30% more quickly than C++, you can restructure in
Objective-C three times for every two times in C++.  Most larger
modules go through many more than three generations.]

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:23:08 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
Lines: 84
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In article , tbutler@tfs.net (Travis
Butler) wrote:

> >It's easy to do, within _reasonable_ constraints.  The 'me' account is
> >quite good at fooling people into thinking the machine is a single-user
> >one.  But once you start doing idiotic things like writing
> >information about which application should open a document directly into
> >the filesystem, 
> 
> Again, I think your prejudices towards a multiuser system are showing. It's
> only 'idiotic' -- not that I think it's even that -- in a multiuser
> setting, and IMHO makes a heckuva lot of sense in a single-user setting.
> This is exactly the sort of thing I was talking about, where a multiuser
> capacity that few will use should take second fiddle to making it better
> for single users.

  The argument fails when you consider that the current Mac system which
"forces it to be single user" is simply an implementation flaw and could
be fixed,most likely trivially.

  The solution for multi-user operations under Copeland was to have a
login system which overrode the Folder Manager (for the NeXTen, the Folder
Manager returns file handles to "special" folders like the System folder,
no matter where it is, what it's called or which one you ask for.  This
allows the Mac OS to be moved about, copied whereever, and renamed into
local languages as you see fit without it effecting system software) and
returned handles that pointed to different Preferences folders for each
user.  The solution to the "single user problem" is to simply move the
Desktop Database folder into the Preferences folders as well, or return
personal handles directly from the Folder Manager "blessing" these
folders.  Either way allows for each user to have their own desktop
database, which they can feel free to edit with MEO as they see fit. 
Trivial.

  The arguement that the Mac solution can't be made multi-user is void.

> And really, it isn't even doing much to the *filesystem* -- just adding an
> extra field to a file record for holding creator information, which can
> then be used by the higher-level OS for anything you want.

  A lot of the more "experimental" file systems for Unix (not that there's
any real "standard") add the concept of tagging (al-a OS/2's HPFS) which
would deal with this problem nicely and remove the need for wrappers
entirely.  Why NeXTSTEP currently uses one of the most basic file system,
building on top one of the most advanced application systems, is something
of a quandary.

  We have file systems with ACL security and centralized control like
AFS.  We have file systems with guaranteed throughput and automatic
journalling (data protection) like XFS.  We have file systems with forks
or arbitrary tagging like the Mac FS, HPFS and some Unix variants.  We
have systems with version control like VMS.  Then we have the NeXT, with
none of these.

  I think the file system is definitely one of the things that should be
standardized on a higher level for Rhapsody.  If there's file systems for
Unix _right now_ that would support both Mac like features (tagging solves
both extended info and resource forks) and more NeXT-like features
(tagging is a far better solution than wrappers) I can't see much of a
reason not to select one, notably if it makes another vendor happy.  For
instance, I'm sure SGI would be rather happy if Apple suddenly placed XFS
on 5 million machines.

> >multiuser system.  If you put that kind of information in a _per-user_
> >database, where it belongs, then things work perfectly fine and the user
> >is none the wiser.

  With small changes to the current Mac OS, this is indeed possible - if
not trivial.

> >Mac users probably prefer the Mac way because it's the only thing they
> >know.  
> 
> Obviously false in my case, though admittedly I haven't used later versions
> of NeXTStep.

  And it's bogus for most Mac users as well I'd say.  I'm a Mac user (and
owner), but I spend 8 hours or more a day on a NT 4.0 box.  Let me assure
you, this file tagging issue is indeed an issue.

  Notice there's only two lines typically.  It's either "NeXT does this
better" (when valid of course) or "no one needs that" (when it's not).

Maury
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From: (Izidor Jerebic)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ObjC advantages (was Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.)
Date: 7 Mar 1997 12:14:56 GMT
Organization: Select Technology
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <5fp0s0$46s@lazar.select-tech.si>
References: <5fd190$a7f@lal.interserv.com>
Reply-To: izidor.jerebic@select-tech.si
NNTP-Posting-Host: blisk.select-tech.si

In article <5fd190$a7f@lal.interserv.com> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com  
(James M. Curran) writes:
> 	Hold it.... You talk for a long time about how this ability is  
useful
> in writing an interpreter -- I usage I already knew about.  And as I
> seen very few real world applications that need an extendably
> interpreter, I stated " that ability is rarely needed in real world
> applications." ie, I refuted your argument before you even made it.
> You responded, by stating that this is useful in working with GUIs,
> but instead if justifying that statement, you just rambled on with a
> pointless and obvious straitjacket metaphor.  So, let us be specific:
> What have you done in a GUI, that an average developer or user might
> feel the need to do, with IB (or ObjC) that would have been difficult
> to do in C++. 
> 

For start: writing the application InterfaceBuilder in C++ is impossible  
:-)

Now seriously:
Well, one example of extremely productive usage of dynamicity is ability  
of dynamic loading of classes. The loaded class becomes part of the  
application name space and can use other classes and be used by  
application classes. In this way an application can a) consume less memory  
and b) be customized by third-party extensions. The following example  
loads the drawing classes only when user requests the graph display of  
data.

- showGraph:(id)data
{
  static Class graphClass ;

  if( graphClass == nil ) {
    NSBundle *bundle ;

    bundle = [NSBundle bundleWithPath:@"Graph.bundle"] ;
    graphClass = [bundle principalClass] ;
  }
  graph = [[graphClass alloc] init] ;
  [graph showData:data] ;
}

The main point is again convenience - Graph bundle is just a compiled (not  
linked) program, containing one or more classes. There is no additional  
effort involved in creating loadable modules, and almost negligible effort  
for applications which dynamically load classes.

I would say that you can do this in other languages, but the effort is  
definitely not negligible.

Almost every successful application has its own proprietary system of  
extensions, so this is obviously much needed feature. Unfortunately,  
everybody is reinventing the wheel (except objc programmers :)

izidor
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From: (Izidor Jerebic)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 7 Mar 1997 12:30:33 GMT
Organization: Select Technology
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <5fp1p9$4a3@lazar.select-tech.si>
References: <5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com>
Reply-To: izidor.jerebic@select-tech.si
NNTP-Posting-Host: blisk.select-tech.si

In article <5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com  
(James M. Curran) writes:
> 
> 	But, only if you are willing to put up with widespread  
ineffeciency.
> I doubt most programming will.  I suspect that for the major of ObjC
> code, classes are used for only the most heavyweight object -- just
> the places where it's advantages outweigh it's shortcoming -- and fall
> back on straight C for the rest.  This would be an architectural
> problem.
> 
> 	I can't see ObjC programmers writing "light-weight" objects in the
> manner C++ programmers do:  For example, a C++ program will often have
> one or more class with NO memeber data, and all its methods inline --
> technically, it doesn't exist -- but it does model a concept, and is
> useful.
> 

What you say is about focusing on coding level. Almost any class worth  
mentioning in a design of a complex application containing several  
hundreds of classes is (by your definition) heavy-weight. Classes were  
invented to describe real-life concepts, not numbers or arrays (we had  
these concepts before OO), and most of them are heavy-weight. If you need  
to program numerical analysis, you can consult your local physics gurus,  
what is the language for that - Fortran (even C++ is too hevy-weight for  
that).

izidor
####################################################################
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 19:26:56 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
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In article <5fcnhe$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:

> 
>         At this point it should be noted that MS has studies which show that
> people who haven't used either system before, become productive faster
> on Win95 than on a Mac.
> 
>         Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
> used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
> Win95 upon first seeing it.
> 
> 
>        Truth,
>        James

It's too bad that I have to waste time with your crap. But there's an
outside chance that someone will believe it.

Apple and MANY, MANY third parties have compared MacOS to Windows and
overwhelmingly determined that MacOS is superior. Rather than repeat
everything _again_, I'll just refer you to my web site.

Microsoft, OTOH, had a SINGLE study which purported to show that Windows
was easier to use than a Mac. The instructions were so clearly biased that
the trade magazines laughed the study to death. Even Microsoft doesn't use
that study any more.

-- 
Regards,

Joe Ragosta
joe.ragosta@dol.net
Visit the Complete Macintosh Web Site
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/ComplMac.htm
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Preview PS
Date: Fri,  7 Mar 1997 15:35:42 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 16
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 7-Mar-97 Preview PS by
marc@doublon.unice.fr 
> where I can find an example of programmation make the same thing like  
> preview with PS multipages (backward, forward between the page of a PS  
> document). 

How about /NextDeveloper/Examples/AppKit/Yap?
Or, you could consult the NeXT FTP archives for BYAP ("Better YAP")...

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: jason@fisher.psych.uh.edu (Jason L. Asbahr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.dsp
Subject: NeXT 56001 DSP for image processing?
Date: 7 Mar 97 14:45:53
Organization: C.R.A.S.H.  The Computers, Robotics, and Artists Society of
	Houston
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Hi!

Forgive this basic question, but is anyone aware of image processing
applications of the 56001 DSP -- papers, examples, source?  I'm
particularly interested in NeXT/56001 combinations, but examples
from other domains are certainly welcome.

Thanks!

Jason Asbahr                    808 Sul Ross  Suite 7
C.R.A.S.H.                      Houston, Texas  77006
jason@crash.org                 (713) 942-7937  voice
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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: newbie question
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:05:06 -0500
Organization: Language Schools of Middlebury College
Lines: 88
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I'm attempting to do the tutorials in Gene Backlin's book, "Developing Nextstep Applications." However, I am attempting this under Openstep 4.1 so I have had to make some changes to his suggested code. Here's his suggested code in a cheasy application
that is to get the rect of a window:


#import "WindowController.h"


@implementation WindowController


- getTheFrame:sender

{

    NXRect theFrame;


    [window getFrame:&theFrame];


    [originX setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.x];

    [originY setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.y];

    [sizeWidth setFloatValue:theFrame.size.width];

    [sizeHeight setFloatValue:theFrame.size.height];


    return self:

}


@end


I know that at least the following changes must be made under openstep:


#import "WindowController.h"


@implementation WindowController


- (void)getTheFrame:(id)sender

{

    NSRect theFrame;


    [window getFrame:&theFrame];


    [originX setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.x];

    [originY setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.y];

    [sizeWidth setFloatValue:theFrame.size.width];

    [sizeHeight setFloatValue:theFrame.size.height];


}


@end


When I attempt to compile this I get the error "cannot find method ... return type for "getFrame' defaults to id


What other changes do I need to make here?



-- 

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

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From: jhoekman@ccrma.stanford.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: need help w/ DPSDoUserPath and user paths
Date: 7 Mar 1997 23:04:41 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
Lines: 70
Message-ID: <5fq6u9$mcu@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
Reply-To: jhoekman@ccrma.stanford.edu
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Keywords: DPSDoUserPath user path

Can anyone take a look at the following code, and find anything  
immediately wrong?  I'm following the example in the documentation pretty  
close, and this causes my program to crash:

- animateSpec2
{
	static int n, ci=0, oi=0;
	static float coords[4*LENGTH2]; // could be up to 1024
	static float bbox[4];
	static char ops[2*LENGTH2+2];

	NXEraseRect(&r2); // erase drawing area
	PSsetgray(NX_BLACK);
	
	bbox[0] = 0;
	bbox[1] = 0;
	bbox[2] = r2.size.width;
	bbox[3] = r2.size.height;

	ops[oi++] = dps_ucache;
	ops[oi++] = dps_setbbox;

	for ( n=0; n
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Run NeXT on SOM?
Date: 7 Mar 97 17:42:00 -0500
Organization: Internet MCI
Lines: 76
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--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00020172
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On Fri, Mar 7, 1997 12:38 PM,

--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00020172
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bWFpbHRvOm1hdXJ5QHNvZnRhcmMuY29t
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 wrote: 

>  SOM's a great
solution if your current object model only runs on one

>machines and you have to talk to others.  In other words it's a good
idea

>for the current Mac OS.

>

>  SOM's not so handy if your object model already runs on multiple

>machines and is shared.  In other words, it's not such a great idea
under

>NeXT.

>

>Maury

>



This is not really true if you have DSOM support on your machine.


Or, am I missing somethin?





Disclaimer:  Views expressed here are mine, no one can claim it as
theirs!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---

Baskaran Subramaniam                   2503 Harbor Landing

Baskaran Consulting                    Roswell, GA 30076

                                       e-mail:
baskaran@internetMCI.com

-----------------------------------------------------------------------=
---


--Cyberdog-MixedBoundary-00020172--

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From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSThread and NSConnection problem
Date: 8 Mar 1997 00:23:56 GMT
Organization: Institut fuer Informatik der Universitaet Muenchen
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <5fqbis$er@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de>
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Hi OPENSTEP programmers out there.

I have to get used to the DO paradigms and thread concepts of OPENSTEP.
First I tried out a very simple application based on the interthread 
communication given in the NSConnection documentation.

Refering to this docuementation I created an object 'subThread' (docu named 
it 'Calculator') with the method:

+ (void)connectWithPorts:(NSArray *)portArray

(please read the NSConnection documentation, because I don't want to quote 
the whole code).

The applications delegate implements the other mentioned methods:
-applicationDidFinishedLaunching and -setServer

Ok, Everything runs fine, a second thread is spawned, and whenever I message 
the proxy object (subThread) from the applications controller object, this is 
performed in the concurrent thread.

Now... How do I stop this thread? I can't:
- release the NSConnection (referring to NSRunLoop this should break the 
  NSRunLoop but it doesn't)
- of course releasing the proxy object doesn't help either (just wanted to 
  test, but the threads remain)
- sending a message to the thread via the NSConnection which performs 
  [NSThread exit] locks the application.

Ok, all these are very much beginner questions, but some key questions do 
remain:

1) How do I stop a thread (1) from thread (2) if the only way to call -exit 
   is to use the current thread! Do I really need to program a loop or check 
   for an NSLock?
2) How do wire down a NSConnection?

The problem:
I do want to write an application where objects can be added and removed 
dynamically and each does run it's own thread. Sharing data should be 
implemented using DO.

Greetings,

  Bernhard.

-- 
Bernhard Scholz				http://www.leo.org/~scholz/
Peanuts FTP Admin 			http://peanuts.leo.org/
scholz@leo.org, (StuSta ONLY: boerny@xenia.stusta.mhn.de)
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From: goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu (Lloyd Goldwasser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.postscript
Subject: more: Re: Clipping path around a rotated image from an eps file
Date: 8 Mar 1997 00:25:46 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
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References: <5f2kp1$a04@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu> <5fa6jc$dci@bignews.shef.ac.uk> <5ff9rj$ms2@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu> <5fgtfk$da4@bignews.shef.ac.uk>
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[note the crossposting]

I wrote:
> > I'm rotating an eps image relative to horizontal [...]
> > However, the rotated
> > image doesn't respect the clipping path of the view, but goes out
> > onto the rest of its window.  I get something like this:
> >
> >                                      ____--\
> > the top of the               ____----       \
> > eps image --->      ____----                 \
> >                   --------------------------------
> >                   |                              |
> > the view --->     |                              |
> >                   |                              |
> >                   |                              |
> >                   --------------------------------.


> > I do resize the view according to the angle of rotation, so the view
> > is large enough to hold the image.  The view itself is within a
> > ScrollView, since the whole shebang may be too large for the screen.
> >

mmalcolm crawford  responded:
> Ah, I wondered about that...
> 
> So your View is actually the document view of a ClipView, which is
> itself the content view of a ScrollView.
>
> There's a note in the docs about ClipViews:
>[snipped]
>
> I guess you should call a PSrotate() somewhere instead of using the
> rotate: method?
>

I've now tried quite a few permutations of PSrotate(), rotate:, rotateBy:, 
rotateTo:, and setDrawRotation: and lots of ways of specifying the clipping 
path, yet the solution to this problem still eludes me.

As far as I can figure out, NXImages and subsets of them _always_ get
drawn as rectangles.  Whatever the current clipping path may be, the
NXImage determines its bounding rectangle from the clipping path's
min and max, and then draws the part of itself in that rectangle.  On
the screen, that rectangle may be rotated if one has used PSrotate()
before drawing, but the rotation and screen drawing occur _after_ the
clipping rectangle is determined; the clipping rectangle gets rotated
along with the image.  The consequence is that the rotated image
flops out of its scrollview no matter what.

On the other hand, no part of the the rotated image _ever_ goes out
of its window: it is clipped at the edge of the window instead.  At
_some_ point there must be clipping that non-rectangular with respect
to the image -- I'm just not sure where it occurs, or whether I can
get access to it.

I can't believe that I'm the only person who has ever tried to put
a rotated image into a scrollview . . . .

Thanks,

Lloyd Goldwasser
goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Real Audio <-> .snd ?
Message-ID: <1997Mar7.173012.95359@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 7 Mar 97 17:30:12 MDT
Reply-To: edx@cc.usu.edu
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Are there any tools to convert a Real Audio file (or stream) to
something that can be played on NEXT/OPENSTEP?

Any information that might be useful would be appreciated.

TIA

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From: marcel@sysyem.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: more: Re: Clipping path around a rotated image from an eps file
Date: 8 Mar 1997 03:57:54 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 20
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5fqo42$khi$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <5fqbmb$eum@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu>
Reply-To: marcel@sysyem.de
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In article <5fqbmb$eum@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu> goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu  
(Lloyd Goldwasser) writes:
In comp.sys.next.programmer article <5fqbmb$eum@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu> you  
wrote:

[problems with rotated NXImages]

Try using the NXEPSImageRep class directly.  The problem is that the EPS  
is drawn into an off-screen cache by NXImage (where it knows nothing about  
the current scale/rotation) and then composited to the screen.   
Compositing respects clipping paths, but not the transformation matrix  
except for translation.

Of course, that way you lose the performance advantages of NXImage, but  
you can either implement your own caching, or subclass NXEPSImageRep to  
cache a rotated version.

Regards,

Marcel
####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: help me with ppp
References: 
From: Darren Reely 
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)
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Message-ID: <3320de27.0@scipio.cyberstore.ca>
Date: 8 Mar 97 03:33:59 GMT
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:28468 comp.sys.next.programmer:23381

jlimpert@pathfinder.com (john limpert) wrote:
>i have nextstep 3.3 for intel and a pc w/ 28.8 modem.
>
>how do I get a ppp connection to the internet established??
>
>any help would be appreciated.
>
>jlimpert@pathfinder.com

For NS 3.3 check out http://www.thoughtport.com:8080/PPP/ for a good PPP 
software package.  NS 3.3 did not come with PPP so you won't find it in the 
documentation.

Darren

	http://www.bcog.org/~dreely
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From: alexdn@globalobjects.com (Alex Duong Nghiem)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.java.misc,comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer,misc.jobs.contract,misc.jobs.offered,nyc.jobs,us.jobs.contract,us.jobs.offered
Subject: NYC and CO Springs - Senior OO devs for Java projs (client provides training)
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 01:17:54 -0500
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 34
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Global Objects specializes in providing quality solutions through object 
and web technologies. We are currently staffing for the following Java 
projects for Fortune 500 clients.

Positions:
	- 10 Java developers (in NYC and Colorado Springs) - the client 
will provide the training. You need a strong background in an OO language 
(4 or more years of experience in one of the following languages: 
Smalltalk, C++, Objective-C, Delphi, etc.), strong OO, good RDBMS skills, 
and a good background in various business domains - the client provides 
the Java training if necessary.

In addition, we need a senior C++ developer in Germany. This candidate 
needs 5+ years of C++ development experience along with strong OO 
modeling skills. Telecomm experience is a plus.

All the positions are contract positions and will last 6 months to 1 
year. These positions start immediately.

For immediate consideration, pls email your resume to 
jobs@globalobjects.com. Pls state your rate (as a 1099 consultant) and 
availability. All candidates are requested to take our OO quiz at 
www.globalobjects.com.

We process email within 24 hours but process faxes in a week.

Thanks,

- Alex -

* ================>  Global Objects Inc  <================ *
* 770.457.4144(P)     800.492.6371(US)    770.457.7333(F)  *
* http://www.globalobjects.com      jobs@globalobjects.com *
* ==========> Play Java games at our web site! <========== *
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 8 Mar 1997 01:51:05 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <5fqgm9$l4i@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
References: <199703061301591275778@pool011-119.innet.be> <5fofl6$pis@news.next.com>
Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sps1.phys.vt.edu

In article <5fofl6$pis@news.next.com>, mark_bessey@next.com wrote:

> That's an interesting idea, but we'd be swimming against the tide. How  
> about this: If we have the OpenStep library on a large % of desktops, and  
> an OpenStep-to-Java interface, we can leverage the platform-independence  
> of Java with our kick-butt native-code class library...

Now _that's_ the strategy I want to see Apple take.  The Java thing is key
because people seem to be afraid of Objective-C as a dead-end has-been,
which is as much an act of ignorance as the tons of programmers blindly
jumping on the Java bandwagon.  But that's where the market is going..

(Though people unhappy with Microsoft putting in native extensions to
Java are probably going to be unhappy with Apple for similar reasons..
it's not "truly" cross-platform, as it is limited to OpenStep platforms
rather than all Java ones.  However, if the OpenStep library is in
fact on a large percentage of desktops, and more to the point, is an
open standard like Java and is available for (nearly) every platform,
that won't make a difference.)

However, this strategy depends on Apple getting the OpenStep library
on a large percentage of desktops, and the key to that is making the
Windows runtime as inexpensive as possible.  (Free is desirable, but
probably isn't possible because of licensing fees.)  And then advertise
the heck out of it..  ship CDs in magazines, make it downloadable over
the net, etc.  (This won't annoy the Mac users who paid for their OS,
because the runtime wouldn't ship with all the apps and the Workspace
and the other things that Rhapsody would come with.)  I hope Apple is
intelligent enough to do this.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Yi Zhao 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Fri, 07 Mar 1997 22:51:53 -0800
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <33210C89.4073@ix.netcom.com>
References: <01bc284c$b8a07400$882168cf@test1>   <331dc772.73186408@news.inlink.com> <5fl6fc$8mu@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>  <331f2b7d.20505173@news.inlink.com> <5fnc5i$k0p$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> <33204896.6745840@news.inlink.com>
Reply-To: yzhao@ix.netcom.com
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:196011 comp.sys.next.advocacy:59852 comp.sys.next.programmer:23384

So what stuff are included in the Rhapsody DR? Does it include the
OpenStep for Intel developer version? If so, I think it might well worth
the $250 price tag.

BTW, does anyone know whether Apple/NeXT have any plan to reprice
OpenStep and WebObjects? They need to attract developers to the OpenStep
environment.
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 8 Mar 1997 01:57:06 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5fqh1i$l5k@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
References:  <5fblc9$31e$2@news.xmission.com> <5fd190$a7f@lal.interserv.com> 
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:196012 comp.sys.next.programmer:23385

In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:

> Measured overhead due to Objective-C message dispatch tends to be
> around 10%.

Is that overhead compared to virtual method calls in C++, or static
method calls?
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: *THIS* Y2K Solution + Offshore = Successful Conversion!
Date: 8 Mar 1997 12:03:37 +0100
Organization: Posting Service
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <199703081103.MAA10169@basement.replay.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: basement.replay.com
X-XS4ALL-Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 12:36:37 CET
X-To: mail2news@basement.replay.com
X-Mail2News-Info-Url: http://www.replay.com/mail2news/
X-Mail2News-Errors-To: postmaster@replay.com
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de alt.comp.shareware.programmer:4624 comp.databases.adabas:972 comp.databases.sybase:46970 comp.lang.cobol:17305 comp.os.os2.misc:212385 comp.os.os2.programmer.misc:51557 comp.sys.mac.misc:139000 comp.sys.next.programmer:23386 comp.unix.misc:25383 comp.unix.programmer:48177

The following Y2K solution is so simple and
easy that you can confidently send your century-
end conversion work overseas.

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

For further information on offshore programming
alternatives, see:

http://www.param.com

Dash Langan

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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Headhunter is apamming posters to c.s.n.p!
Date: 8 Mar 1997 05:39:35 -0800
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Lines: 44
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com
Summary: If this ass-wipe sends you e-mail, mail-bomb his ass.
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV)

Fellow NeXT hackers,

If you see the following message in your mail queue, give the
arsehole a call! Tell him why you'll never consider working with
a headhunter who's so hard up that he has to resort to unauthorised
use of other people's property to get a candidate.

-jcr

BEGIN IMCLUDED SPAM:

From masyiek@andovercg.com Wed Mar  5 16:20:13 1997
X-Sender: masyiek@megspo.megsinet.net
Message-Id: 
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:19:54 -0600
To: jcr@idiom.com
From: masyiek@andovercg.com (masyiek)
Subject: Seeking C++ Programmer

We haven't spoken before nor have you read any e-mails from me, but I
thought just from your note in usenet group that you may be able to help me.

I am seeking a very talented C++ programmer (32 bit) interested in working
in the Chicago financial industry and may be from the Chicago area or be
willing to relocate to Chicago.  If you don't know anyone that could help
me, can you forward my e-mail to someone that could?

thanks,

mike syiek
"boris"
andover consulting group, inc.
chicago, il
312.222.9777



--===========================_ _= 8671875(116)--


--===========================_ _= 314025(175)--

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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 7 Mar 1997 21:15:14 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <5fqi3i$7hl@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
References: <5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com> <5fp1p9$4a3@lazar.select-tech.si>
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Izidor Jerebic (izidor.jerebic@select-tech.si) wrote in article <5fp1p9$4a3@lazar.select-tech.si> 

]. If you need  
]to program numerical analysis, you can consult your local physics gurus,  
]what is the language for that - Fortran (even C++ is too hevy-weight for  
]that).


 Exactly. No one in his right mind (currently) uses C++ for number-
 crunching. C comes close second to FORTRAN.




-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: newbie question
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 11:13:06 -0500
Organization: Disney Online
Lines: 48
Message-ID: <33219012.4A25@online.disney.com>
References: 
Reply-To: jpanico@online.disney.com
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David Herren wrote:

  #import "WindowController.h"

  @implementation WindowController

  - (void)getTheFrame:(id)sender
  {
  NSRect theFrame;

  [window getFrame:&theFrame];

  [originX setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.x];
  [originY setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.y];
  [sizeWidth setFloatValue:theFrame.size.width];
  [sizeHeight setFloatValue:theFrame.size.height];

  }

  @end

  When I attempt to compile this I get the error "cannot find method
  ...
  return type for "getFrame' defaults to id

  What other changes do I need to make here?

  --
  David Herren --------------------------------------------------
  Web: http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/
  General: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu
  NeXTMail only: herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

  David,

Look at the 4.x documentation for the AppKit *framework*. The APIfor
the NSWindow class has changed. It no longer has a -getFrame method. The
new method is

-(NSRect)frame.

Good luck.

--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 11:24:06 -0500
Organization: Disney Online
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <332192A6.313D@online.disney.com>
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>  <5eo65r$53l@lal.interserv.com>  <856715712.25573@dejanews.com> <5eqq6n$s7s@lal.interserv.com> <856776663.22260@dejanews.com> <5etptl$2tb@lal.interserv.com> <856930544.19004@dejanews.com> <33144F92.4095@online.disney.com> <5f5kn3$ndq@lal.interserv.com> <33190835.19824536@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com>
Reply-To: jpanico@online.disney.com
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:196147 comp.sys.next.advocacy:59880 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:21195 comp.sys.next.programmer:23390 comp.lang.objective-c:5351

James M. Curran wrote:

          But, only if you are willing to put up with widespread
  ineffeciency.
  I doubt most programming will.
         Truth,
         James

I have to disagree. Java, without JIT, is probably an order of magnitude
slower than ObjC. With a top of the line JIT, it's probably on par with
ObjC. And yet, c++ programmers are abandoning c++ for Java at an
astounding pace?
Why is this?
--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!blackbush.xlink.net!ka.sub.net!nextone!nitezki
From: Nitezki@NiDat.sub.org (Peter Nitezki)
Subject: This used to be c.s.n.programmer not c.s.n.advocacy
Message-ID: 
Sender: nitezki@nidat.sub.org (Peter Nitezki)
Reply-To: Peter.Nitezki@bku.db.de
Organization: private site of Peter Nitezki, Kraichtal, Germany
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:32:43 GMT
Lines: 20
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23391 comp.sys.next.advocacy:59884

Hey fellas,

What's happening to this newsgroup?

Lots of advocacy threads are clogging c.s.n.programmer drowning the real  
signal with loud humming noise.

I really appreciate MacOS programmers rejuvenating our dying community but  
I'd rather like to see the revival of our high (in Usenet standards, at  
least ;-) posting discipline of former days.

PLEASE, let this newsgroup be a place of technical discussion of hands on  
problems.  And switch all threads to c.s.n.advocacy as soon as they stray  
off to philosophical questions and matters of taste.

--
Peter Nitezki      | Nitezki@NiDat.sub.org # Blessed art thou who knoweth
Staarenbergstr. 44 | Tel.:  +49 7251 62495 # not about the pleasure and
D-76703 Kraichtal  | Fax :  +49 7251 69215 # delight of being hooked
GERMANY            | E-mail defunct, sorry # up to the Net. Peter 1,3-5
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: idle time in Workspace?
Date: 8 Mar 1997 13:40:45 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <5frq8t$n63@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sps1.phys.vt.edu

Is there any programmatic way to determine how long a user has been idle
(i.e., no mouse or keyboard events) in the Workspace?  I can use the
standard Unix trick for getting idle times, but it only works if they've
got a terminal open.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 8 Mar 1997 19:39:16 GMT
Organization: mother.com Internet Services
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Message-ID: <01bc2bef$3a8a94f0$612168cf@test1>
References: <01bc284c$b8a07400$882168cf@test1>   <331dc772.73186408@news.inlink.com> <5fl6fc$8mu@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>  <331f2b7d.20505173@news.inlink.com> <5fnc5i$k0p$2@majipoor.cygnus.com> <33204896.6745840@news.inlink.com> <33210C89.4073@ix.netcom.com>
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Yi Zhao  wrote in article
<33210C89.4073@ix.netcom.com>...
> So what stuff are included in the Rhapsody DR? Does it include the
> OpenStep for Intel developer version? If so, I think it might well worth
> the $250 price tag.

I asked, but the response was "watch our web pages":

--------------------------------------
Many specific details of Rhapsody are currently unannounced and we plan 
to let everyone know as they become available. We are continually 
updating our Frequently Asked Questions 
, so 
continue to check their to find the answers to additional questions you 
may have.
----------------------------------------


Todd
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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 08 Mar 1997 14:42:53 -0800
Organization: home
Lines: 14
Message-ID: 
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> 
	<5eo65r$53l@lal.interserv.com> 
	<856715712.25573@dejanews.com> <5eqq6n$s7s@lal.interserv.com>
	<856776663.22260@dejanews.com> <5etptl$2tb@lal.interserv.com>
	<856930544.19004@dejanews.com> <33144F92.4095@online.disney.com>
	<5f5kn3$ndq@lal.interserv.com> <33190835.19824536@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
	<5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com> <332192A6.313D@online.disney.com>
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In-reply-to: Joseph Panico's message of Sat, 08 Mar 1997 11:24:06 -0500
Fcc: /u6/users/tmb/mail/x-nout
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In article <332192A6.313D@online.disney.com> Joseph Panico  writes:

   I have to disagree. Java, without JIT, is probably an order of magnitude
   slower than ObjC. With a top of the line JIT, it's probably on par with
   ObjC.

I benchmarked method dispatch in Kaffe (the free JIT for Java) to be the
the same speed as C++, taking about half the time of GNU Objective-C
method dispatch.

I don't think this makes a big difference in practice, but I thought
I'd inject some data...

Thomas.
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From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 14:41:20 -0800
Organization: Bridge Family
Lines: 33
Message-ID: 
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In article <332192A6.313D@online.disney.com>, jpanico@online.disney.com wrote:

>James M. Curran wrote:
>
>          But, only if you are willing to put up with widespread
>  ineffeciency.
>  I doubt most programming will.
>         Truth,
>         James
>
>I have to disagree. Java, without JIT, is probably an order of magnitude
>slower than ObjC. With a top of the line JIT, it's probably on par with
>ObjC. And yet, c++ programmers are abandoning c++ for Java at an
>astounding pace?
>Why is this?
>--


Probably because, in many applications, speed isn't of the essence.  Who
cares if after a user presses a button it takes .1 seconds or .01 seconds?

All of this is making me even happier to develop in Smalltalk and I'm
praying that QKS delivers a Rhapsody version of Smalltalk Agents after the
OS is stable.

But in the meantime I know that I can prototype in STA, immediately apply
what I know into learning Objective-C, and I will never have to write C++,
a language that  leaves me utterly cold.

Adam Bridge

-- 
Adam Bridge
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <5437857680935@digifix.com>
Date: 9 Mar 1997 05:25:33 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 347
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.

 Archives are available by ftp at

 ftp://ftp.stepwise.com/pub/Next_Announce_Archives

 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 9 Mar 97 00:05:17
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:  <5fblc9$31e$2@news.xmission.com>
	<5fd190$a7f@lal.interserv.com> 
	<5fqh1i$l5k@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port-10-4.access.one.net
In-reply-to: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu's message of 8 Mar 1997 01:57:06 -0000
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:196379 comp.sys.next.programmer:23397

In article <5fqh1i$l5k@sps1.phys.vt.edu>,
	nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban) writes:
   In article ,
	shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
   > Measured overhead due to Objective-C message dispatch tends to be
   > around 10%.

   Is that overhead compared to virtual method calls in C++, or static
   method calls?

Static.  It's something like twice as slow as VTBL dispatch, depending
on what dispatch method your ObjC runtime is using.

I've been reading some research papers indicating that Objective-C
style dynamic dispatch can potentially be brought within a small
fraction of VTBL dispatch, and can sometimes improve on it in certain
cases.  This is somewhat non-intuitive.  The loophole is that VTBL
requires a set of instructions which have a great deal of
interdependency (start at the object pointer, add a delta, get the
VTBL pointer, add a delta, etc) which don't pipeline very well.
Meanwhile, more dynamic dispatch methods pipeline reasonably, and in
the end it's somewhat of a wash.

[The best papers I've seen were by Karen Driesen.  I probably murdered
that spelling.]

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 9 Mar 97 00:14:31
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 60
Message-ID: 
References: <5ddp66$jpc@news.bu.edu> <5dtpb5$h4t@news.bu.edu>
	 
	<5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> 
	<5f1qoe$8dp@spool.cs.wisc.edu> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: port-10-4.access.one.net
In-reply-to: maury@softarc.com's message of Fri, 07 Mar 1997 12:28:50 -0500
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:63312 comp.sys.mac.system:204605 comp.sys.next.programmer:23398

In article ,
	maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes:
   In article <5f1qoe$8dp@spool.cs.wisc.edu>,
	Steve Barnet <"mailer-daemon"@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:
   > If, on the other hand, they would like to penetrate corporate
   > environments and grab an appreciable chunk of the server market,
   > they will have to make some hard choices.

   Agreed.  Who's journaled file system to use?  NeXT doesn't have
   one.

FreeBSD either has one already, or has one in the works.  NeXT's OS is
BSD based, so it's unlikely to be a giant project to integrate.  [The
big problem here is that Apple/NeXT is unlikely to want to outsource
their filesystem, so they _have_ to bring it inhouse.]

   Who's system should we use to make Mac files invisible to the
   OS?  NeXT doesn't have one.

Sure they do.  I have all sorts of invisible files on my filesystem.
A simple toggle lets me see them if I want to.

   Who's system to support ACL's?  NeXT doesn't have one.

AFS was ported to NeXT _long_ ago, and it had ACLs (didn't it?).

   Who's system to give guaranteed throughput for multimedia
   applications?  NeXT doesn't have one.

   Looks to me like it's a tough choice regardless.

This one would be easy to let pass - if it were a common feature in
the market.  All of the popular operating systems suck in this regard
_today_, SGI XFS non-withstanding.

   > UNIXish systems dominate the server market 

   The server market is small though, judging by sales of NT server
   (about 3 million a year).  Even Apple's tiny market share sells
   about the same.  They have to please both camps, and FFS isn't the
   solution.  NTFS may be.  XFS may be.  I would suggest that the time
   to choose is soon though.

The problem, here, seems to be one of ambiguous assertions.  Both NTFS
and XFS owe a tremendous dept to FFS.  Regardless of what you call it,
whatever the future filesystem Apple/NeXT uses, an old FFS hack will
probably understand much more than half of what's going on - because
that half will effectively _be_ FFS.

The main problems with NeXT's FFS are almost entirely related to lack
of resources on NeXT's part to fix them, not to intrinsic failings.
If there is a good reason for Apple/NeXT to make it work, they've got
the engineering talent to fix it.

Later,

--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: "Michael Makhlouf" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 01:32:12 -0500
Organization: Medical University of South Carolina
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
References: <5fkqpq$1nhm@atlas.vcu.edu> <331E6D78.4784@wam.umd.edu>
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:Weiyuan W Chin wrote:
:> 
:> It has occured to me that there isn't a rush by Mac developers
:> to develop under the OPENSTEP API's. :> I just don't see the rush of
newbie OPENSTEP programming
:> questions that I had expected.  Maybe it's just that most Mac
:> developers don't have access to a NeXT/Intel/SPARC to do OPENSTEP
:> development yet.

I would be asking a lot of questions if I could run OPENSTEP on my Mac. I
read parts of the Nextstep tutorial on the Web, but since I don't own an
Intel and definitely can't afford the developer edition of OPENSTEP, I can't
do any meaningful work. Although I am not a "real" developer (shareware
only), I believe that my viewpoint applies to most Mac programmers. As long
as there is nothing of OPENSTEP on the Mac, Mac developers will keep working
on their current projects using system 7 API's. It very hard for us to
believe that OPENSTEP programs would just need a recompile (or slight source
code modification) to run under Rhapsody. I hope that when Rhapsody DR is
released we will see a TON of questions. (make sure you check
c.s.m.programmer.* though). 

Tony "waiting to do cool stuff with OPENSTEP on the Mac" Makhlouf

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From: "Michael Makhlouf" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 01:40:38 -0500
Organization: Medical University of South Carolina
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In article <33210C89.4073@ix.netcom.com>, Yi Zhao 
wrote:

:So what stuff are included in the Rhapsody DR? Does it include the
:OpenStep for Intel developer version? If so, I think it might well worth
:the $250 price tag.
:

I wonder what would Metrowerks think of this. 250 US$ is less than what
Codewarrior costs. I wonder if Apple and metrowerks have made some secret
deal in exchange for Metrowerks supporting Rhapsody. Although I sincerely
hope, for my sake and Apple's, that the 250 $ developer program will include
Developer tools, I am afraid that this won't be the case.I think they will
include it with ETO (for around $1000). Of course this is just speculation. 
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 9 Mar 1997 03:08:45 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article , "Michael Makhlouf"  wrote:

> It very hard for us to
> believe that OPENSTEP programs would just need a recompile (or slight source
> code modification) to run under Rhapsody.

Why?  Rhapsody is a port of the existing OPENSTEP for Mach to the PowerPC.
Sure, Apple is going to be adding things to the API to provide more
Mac-like features, but I really doubt they're going to make any major
changes to OpenStep.  I fully expect that existing OpenStep programs will
be immediately portable to Rhapsody, perhaps with some slight source code
modifications if Apple finds it necessary to modify the API in places.
But all the main aspects should remain the same.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: "zarf" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 9 Mar 1997 07:40:32 GMT
Organization: zarfism
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As a current Mac user I'm concerned that some of my fellow Mac
users/cry-babies could torpedo the availability of the NeXT HI under
Rhapsody. Though they are vocal, I know I'm not the only Mac user who,
though  amazed ten years ago by the Mac look and feel, now feels confined
by its age and backwardness.

Do you foresee any technical hitches for Apple-Next,  or third-party if
necessary, to provide the following arrangement:

* make the Mac global horizontal menubar the default under Rhapsody for
those who afraid to leave the single-tasking look

* yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style for those of us who want
to  graduate to the NeXT level

I know a bit about NIB files but I'm still worried. I just want to know for
sure that there is no technical reason that the above arrangement is not
possible and hopefully some reassuring details to that end.

Please.
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From: "zarf" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Travis, Travis, Travis. It's over.
Date: 9 Mar 1997 09:50:53 GMT
Organization: zarfism
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Travis Butler  wrote in article
...
> >> I'm blathering on about this because it seems like a large number of
the
> >> arguments by NeXT partisans boil down to 'it has to be this way if
you're
> >> on a multiuser system.' Well, as I said, I don't WANT a multiuser
system;

The irony here, is that Copland was going to pretend to be a multi-user
system.
  
> Many NeXT partisans keep speaking as if the MacOS isn't a valid OS in its
> own right, 

Well, duh, why do you think we're dumping it lock, stock and barrel? The
whole OS is an outdated, antequated kludge! The only thing that's going to
be preserved is a facsimile of its appearance!!! What does that tell you?
It's over! And it's also some of us "recovering" Mac partisans who realize
it's not a state-of-the-art OS. (Never was - but back then what desktop
system was? Although I think perhaps the Lisa had pre-emptive
multi-tasking.)

What seemed so stunning 10 years ago is looking and acting pretty old,
wrinkled, and feeble. Especially when competing OSes have been modernizing
themselves - all while our Mac has been standing still for six years. Now
it's design weaknesses have become glaring.

If you want a quick glimpse (and a laugh)  into the current broken-down
state of the MacOS take a look at:



It's over...  LONG LIVE RHAPSODY!


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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 02:08:50 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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Weiyuan W Chin wrote:
> 
> It has occured to me that there isn't a rush by Mac developers
> to develop under the OPENSTEP API's.  Reading over the press
> releases, I get the sense that one could avoid the re-write
> to OPENSTEP API's and just recompile an app written in
> Codewarrior for OPENSTEP. Now, would that result in an app that
> basically translates API calls to OPENSTEP calls?  Would this
> result in an app that runs as fast as a fully native OPENSTEP
> app?  Are developers just going ahead with their current
> development plans and a) hope that the compability for developers
> is as complete as the user environment b) hoping that the OPENSTEP
> portion of Rhapsody will fail so that they can do things the way
> they always have c) hoping that Rhapsody will fail so that they
> can write Be apps d) something else??
> 

I seriously doubt that many Mac developers are hoping for Rhapsody
or OPENSTEP to fail since they are the brightest hope for the future
of Mac development. Most of the big Mac developers have been pretty
willing to make the big leaps when Apple has provided new platforms
(look at the jump from 68k to PPC or the jump from System 6 to 7).
The only thing that they ask, I think, is that there be reasonable
support for their old style products during the transition and that
reasonable devolopment tools be made available.

> Not knowing PowerPlant, MacApp, or CodeWarrior, can someone
> point out how they compare to ProjectBuilder, IB, AppKit,
> FoundationKit, etc.?
> 
> I just don't see the rush of newbie OPENSTEP programming
> questions that I had expected.  Maybe it's just that most Mac
> developers don't have access to a NeXT/Intel/SPARC to do OPENSTEP
> development yet.
> 

I think the main reason that you don't see a rush of newbie questions
is that Mac developers are not newbies. These people are experienced
programmers and a new OS is just not that difficult to them. Further,
OPENSTEP is not "new" in the sense that BeOS is new. OPENSTEP has been
around for many years. There are plenty of programmers out there who
have used OPENSTEP on one platform or another. There are a fair number
of quality books out there on the subject of OPENSTEP programming.

When you are trying to learn to write code for an embrionic OS you
need to get out and ask all kinds of stupid questions to other folx
also struggling along with the new baby. Noone knows quite what works,
not even the folx who wrote the thing, so there are lots of "newbie"
questions being asked. With OPENSTEP, however, there is a large body
of established lore to which a neophyte can refer and there are a fair
number of experienced programmers that companies can hire to train
their staffs or do the programming for them.

Another point is that it has only been a few months since Apple
bought NeXT and many developers who need to get their feet wet with
OPENSTEP are probably still just getting aquainted with the system.

I only aquired my NeXT box and got it set up two weeks ago. In those
two weeks I have made it about 300 pages into the Garfinkel/Mahoney
book. In a couple more weeks you should have a fair crop of former
Mac developers who have gotten just enough of a taste of OPENSTEP
to know what questions they need to ask.

When you consider that a neophyte OPENSTEP programmer could need to
learn 1) the NeXTSTEP GUI, 2) Objective-C, and 3) the OPENSTEP API
and programming tools, I don't think its too much of a suprise that
it is taking a few months to see their responses flooding the NGs.

-Jeff Dutky
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From: "zarf" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 9 Mar 1997 08:43:00 GMT
Organization: zarfism
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Michael Makhlouf  wrote in article
...
> 
> :Weiyuan W Chin wrote:
> :> 
> :> It has occured to me that there isn't a rush by Mac developers
> :> to develop under the OPENSTEP API's. :> I just don't see the rush of
> newbie OPENSTEP programming
> :> questions that I had expected.  Maybe it's just that most Mac
> :> developers don't have access to a NeXT/Intel/SPARC to do OPENSTEP
> :> development yet.
> 
> I would be asking a lot of questions if I could run OPENSTEP on my Mac. I
> read parts of the Nextstep tutorial on the Web, but since I don't own an
> Intel and definitely can't afford the developer edition of OPENSTEP, I
can't
> do any meaningful work. Although I am not a "real" developer (shareware
> only), I believe that my viewpoint applies to most Mac programmers. As
long
> as there is nothing of OPENSTEP on the Mac, Mac developers will keep
working
> on their current projects using system 7 API's. It very hard for us to
> believe that OPENSTEP programs would just need a recompile (or slight
source
> code modification) to run under Rhapsody. I hope that when Rhapsody DR is
> released we will see a TON of questions. (make sure you check
> c.s.m.programmer.* though). 
> 
> Tony "waiting to do cool stuff with OPENSTEP on the Mac" Makhlouf

Hyuk! There may be a ton of questions on c.s.M.p but to get answers you and
me will have to go to c.s.N.p!! Duh.

- embarrassed by my fellow mac-bigots
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From: clafey@buncombe.main.nc.us (Cicada La Fey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problems with N3DShader class
Date: 9 Mar 1997 14:23:27 GMT
Organization: Mountain Area Information Network
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This is not a direct reply, just that I ran into a bug in the N3DShader
in my 3.1 system (which may be fixed in later versions). If I setShader:
to some value like "matte", and then later set it to "none", setting it
to none causes free() to be called on some unmalloc'd memory, setting
the stage for unpredictiable things to happen, but usually an attempt
to access memory through a pointer that has been trashed.


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From: clafey@buncombe.main.nc.us (Cicada La Fey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help me get Photreal Renderman working
Date: 9 Mar 1997 14:42:58 GMT
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If anyone knows how to get Photorealistic Renderman
working on the NeXT, please enlighten me!

Cicada LaFey
clafey@main.nc.us

I have a NeXT Dimension system and am running 
NeXTStep Developer 3.1

I am attempting to use photorealistic renderman.
I have created a scene using the 3DKit which I
have rendered on the screen. This uses the interactive
renderman. Now I want to use the photoreal renderman
so I call the N3DCamera's renderAsTiff method.
The renderpanel comes up with a single server listed:
"localhost". I press the OK button and the following
message is printed:

clnt_create: RPC: Unknown host

And the method renderAsTiff returns a tag of zero.
The delegate method which is supposed to be called
when the rendering is complete never is called. I
presume that this is because the rendering job was
not successfully submitted.

I used the application RenderManager.app to look at
the render queue and it was indeed empty. I tried
reconfiguring the renderer by setting it to be public
instead of private. That ended up creating another
server named the name of my machine (coyote). Now both
localhost and coyote come up as servers in the render
panel, but selecting either of them still results in
the same response as before.

I have been unable to find any documentation on how
the render servers are supposed to be set up, etc...

/usr/prman has three executables in it. The program
shader has a manual page, but the program prman does not.
The third program rpc.renderd I assume is a daemon which
perhaps I need to have running on my machine in order
for the renderer to work.

So I try just putting the following line in my rc.local
(A long shot since there is no documentation)

/usr/prman/rpc.renderd >/dev/console

This results in the following message being printed on my
console and still no rendering:

Mar  9 08:55:14 coyote syslog: svcudp_create - cannot getsockname: Socket
operation on non-socket

If anyone knows how to get Photorealistic Renderman
working on the NeXT, please enlighten me!

Cicada LaFey
clafey@main.nc.us

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: Sun,  9 Mar 1997 12:11:30 -0500
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	<5eb9r5$iv2@csugrad.cs.vt.edu> 
	<5f1qoe$8dp@spool.cs.wisc.edu> 
	
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[ ...followups redirected out of the programming newsgroups... ]

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 9-Mar-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
Unix: File S.. by Scott Hess@one.net 
>    Agreed.  Who's journaled file system to use?  NeXT doesn't have
>    one.
>  
> FreeBSD either has one already, or has one in the works.  NeXT's OS is
> BSD based, so it's unlikely to be a giant project to integrate.  [The
> big problem here is that Apple/NeXT is unlikely to want to outsource
> their filesystem, so they _have_ to bring it inhouse.]

Of course, we've got to ask what the value of a journaled file system is
to users.  It provides the ability for a filesystem to update itself
atomically, which means that you can crash and not have to fsck
(filesystem check) the disk drives, and that you won't lose files due to
metainformation corruption.

However, I haven't had my system crash in nearly a year-- journaled
filesystems are nice but purely optional.  We can wait until later
releases of Rhapsody, assuming Rhapsody is stable enough that people
don't end up fsck'ing their drives every day.

>    Who's system should we use to make Mac files invisible to the
>    OS?  NeXT doesn't have one.
>  
> Sure they do.  I have all sorts of invisible files on my filesystem.
> A simple toggle lets me see them if I want to.

Agreed.
  
>    Who's system to support ACL's?  NeXT doesn't have one.
>  
> AFS was ported to NeXT _long_ ago, and it had ACLs (didn't it?).

Yes, AFS was ported to NEXTSTEP on black hardware, and I'd think
TransARC is virtually certain to port AFS or DFS to Rhapsody.  ACL's
only become a significant improvement over the Unix permissions and
groups when you've got a large number of networked users (at least in
the 100's).  

[ ... ]
>    The server market is small though, judging by sales of NT server
>    (about 3 million a year).  Even Apple's tiny market share sells
>    about the same.  They have to please both camps, and FFS isn't the
>    solution.  NTFS may be.  XFS may be.  I would suggest that the time
>    to choose is soon though.
>  
> The problem, here, seems to be one of ambiguous assertions.  Both NTFS
> and XFS owe a tremendous dept to FFS.  Regardless of what you call it,
> whatever the future filesystem Apple/NeXT uses, an old FFS hack will
> probably understand much more than half of what's going on - because
> that half will effectively _be_ FFS.
>  
> The main problems with NeXT's FFS are almost entirely related to lack
> of resources on NeXT's part to fix them, not to intrinsic failings.
> If there is a good reason for Apple/NeXT to make it work, they've got
> the engineering talent to fix it.

Question: what are the "main problems" with the Berkeley FFS as a user
filesystem?  Why isn't the FFS a solution?

ACL's are nice, journalling is nice, guaranteed throughput is nice-- but
they not only aren't essential, they aren't even _important_ to the
majority of users.  I'm not opposed to the idea of Rhapsody switching to
a better filesystem if there is adequate reason for the change, but I'd
rather see Apple focus on more important issues, otherwise.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: jbf_see_signature@frazer.com (James B. Frazer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help me get Photreal Renderman working
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 13:39:04 -0500
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In article <5fui9i$ec6@mainsrv.main.nc.us>, clafey@buncombe.main.nc.us
(Cicada La Fey) wrote:

> If anyone knows how to get Photorealistic Renderman
> working on the NeXT, please enlighten me!

snip

> The renderpanel comes up with a single server listed:
> "localhost". I press the OK button and the following
> message is printed:

> clnt_create: RPC: Unknown host

snip

I had the same problem on one NeXT (at work) in which
/etc/hostconfig identified the machine name and IP address,
with a single level netinfo.

I did not have this problem with a second NeXT (at home)
with a similar /etc/hostconfig but a two level netinfo.
In this setup, the machine names and IPs appear in the
"network" directory, while the "local" directory includes
only broadcasthost and localhost.

(I can't say what I would find in the local directory on
the machine at work, since I'm not there, but I suspect
it was modified by HostManager.app to include the machine
name and IP address, and that that was the cause of the
trouble.)

Since this occurred in using Stone Design's 3D app, I
called them, and this seems to be a common problem.
They suggested I add the machine name to /locations/renderers
in local (I think?), and that did the trick (I guess?)

It seems to me that in the early PPP days there were all
sorts of warnings against configuring the host name in
/etc/hostconfig because this caused netinfo hangs. This
seems like it might be a related problem - but I've never
had it with a two level netinfo. OTOH, I've never been able
to get a NeXT to execute print requests over the Ethernet.
(It claims the connection was lost, or something like that.)

Any netinfo experts out there able to clarify this?

Barney (delete that _see_signature to email me)
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From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 9 Mar 1997 17:15:29 GMT
Organization: Integrity Solutions, Inc.
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In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org> "zarf"  writes:
> Do you foresee any technical hitches for Apple-Next,  or third-party if
> necessary, to provide the following arrangement:
> 
> * make the Mac global horizontal menubar the default under Rhapsody for
> those who afraid to leave the single-tasking look
> 
> * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style for those of us who want
> to  graduate to the NeXT level

It is entirely possible -- even relatively easy -- however the easiest way of supporting it would be that the NEXTSTEP  
style menus would have the same heirarchy as the Mac ones.  The second easiest way would be to do what NeXT does for  
supporting OPENSTEP on Windows -- have two nib files with the different menu styles in them.

Mike Barthelemy
msb@plexare.com
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From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 9 Mar 1997 17:15:57 GMT
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In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org> "zarf"  writes:
> Do you foresee any technical hitches for Apple-Next,  or third-party if
> necessary, to provide the following arrangement:
> 
> * make the Mac global horizontal menubar the default under Rhapsody for
> those who afraid to leave the single-tasking look
> 
> * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style for those of us who want
> to  graduate to the NeXT level

It is entirely possible -- even relatively easy -- however the easiest way of supporting it would be that the NEXTSTEP  
style menus would have the same heirarchy as the Mac ones.  The second easiest way would be to do what NeXT does for  
supporting OPENSTEP on Windows -- have two nib files with the different menu styles in them.

Mike Barthelemy
msb@plexare.com
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From: dickrp@wckn.dorm.clarkson.edu (Rob)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 9 Mar 97 19:43:25 GMT
Organization: Clarkson University
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shess@one.net (Scott Hess) writes:

>_Now_ I'd have no problems porting to C++ from Objective-C.  The

I used to think that a port from Objective-C to C++ would be
relatively easy compared to the initial design.  This wasn't
the case in a project I recently ported.  Compared to Objective-C,
C++ inheritance is broken.  Genericity is accomplished with templates
instead.  It does sort of work but it totally changes the way design
is done. 

If you do decide to port your project, please share your experiences
with me.  I was amazed by the difficulty I had simulating message
passing in C++.  I finally gave up and significantly modified my
design to fit C++'s more restricted view of objects.

-Robert Dick (dickrp@wckn.dorm.clarkson.edu)-
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 15:50:43 -0500
Organization: Atria Software
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In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org>, "zarf"
 wrote:

> * make the Mac global horizontal menubar the default under Rhapsody for
> those who afraid to leave the single-tasking look

  I think it's pretty safe to say that both will be supported at some
point.  Regardless, the menu bars under NeXT and Mac are similar.  NeXT's
are movable and not always at the top of the screen, but the concepts are
similar and quite the opposite of the menus-in-windows used under systems
like Windows or X.

> * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style for those of us who want
> to  graduate to the NeXT level
> 
> I know a bit about NIB files but I'm still worried. I just want to know for
> sure that there is no technical reason that the above arrangement is not
> possible and hopefully some reassuring details to that end.

  Appearance Manager should handle all of this.

Maury
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:02:10 -0500
Organization: Atria Software
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In article , shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
wrote:

> FreeBSD either has one already, or has one in the works.  NeXT's OS is
> BSD based, so it's unlikely to be a giant project to integrate.  [The
> big problem here is that Apple/NeXT is unlikely to want to outsource
> their filesystem, so they _have_ to bring it inhouse.]

  I don't think any of these files systems would be difficult to add
considering how easy they seem to be added to other flavours of Unix in
the past.  The issue, as I see it, is picking one, picking it now, and
making it the "standard" under Rhapsody.  Again it strikes me as one of
those things that should not be left to post-1.0 time frames.

> Sure they do.  I have all sorts of invisible files on my filesystem.
> A simple toggle lets me see them if I want to.

  Sorry, I worded that badly. I was referring to supporting Mac files
invisibly under the file system.  The current NeXT solution does not do
this, and Mac files will likely become wrappers.  Not that that's a bad
solution, but other file systems like HPFS support unlimited tagging which
is a much better solution (it also allows for things like ACL's and
comments to be added as additional tag fields).  I did not mean to refer
to invisible files, althoguh rereading the post I seemed to imply that -
sorry.

> AFS was ported to NeXT _long_ ago, and it had ACLs (didn't it?).

  AFS?  Sorry, I'm not too sure what you refer to (Apple File Sharing? -
it doesn't).  The point here is that it's not only possible, but done, the
issue is to make one of these standard so we can rely on having these
features as opposed to having lots of case code depending on what features
we have or don't have.

> This one would be easy to let pass - if it were a common feature in
> the market.  All of the popular operating systems suck in this regard
> _today_, SGI XFS non-withstanding.

  Oh I agree.  Not even Be has this as far as I am aware.  So if we were
to use XFS (still reading the docs) this would be one more feature that
the system could boast that few others would have.  For instance, the BeOS
has some real time functionality which the current Mach kernels don't, but
it would certainly be nice if this were backed up in the file system as
well.  Even the file system alone, when used with something like
QuickTime, would certianly be a "bonus" feature.

> The problem, here, seems to be one of ambiguous assertions.  Both NTFS
> and XFS owe a tremendous dept to FFS.  Regardless of what you call it,
> whatever the future filesystem Apple/NeXT uses, an old FFS hack will
> probably understand much more than half of what's going on - because
> that half will effectively _be_ FFS.

  Absolutely, one more reason why code changes to the storage operators in
OpenStep would not have to be modified to _work_ under such a system. 
Future versions could use the added functionality, but only if such a
system is standardized.

> The main problems with NeXT's FFS are almost entirely related to lack
> of resources on NeXT's part to fix them, not to intrinsic failings.
> If there is a good reason for Apple/NeXT to make it work, they've got
> the engineering talent to fix it.

  I certainly hope so!  Regardless of Copeland's overall failure, it did
have a lot of good ideas, and it's object based view of the file system
universe was, IMHO, one of them.  Apple did not go so far as to introduce
a new file system to go with it (a problem the people at the day job
[myself included] went out of our way to communicate to Apple as often as
we could).  So here we are at the same cross roads once again.

Maury
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From: jbf_see_signature@frazer.com (James B. Frazer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 16:14:16 -0500
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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> In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org> "zarf"
 writes:

> * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style for those of us who want
> to  graduate to the NeXT level

Or regress? Never liked the waste of screen real estate myself, altho
tear offs and second button popups are nice.

Barney (delete that _see_signature to email me)
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From: lloyddean@earthlink.net (Lloyd D. Ollmann, Jr.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:44:54 -0800
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
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Given that Apple has stated that they are pursuing two OS paths
and that in late December Apple changed the name of it's
developer support program from "Apple Developer Program"
to "Macintosh Developer Program" I wouldn't count on it.

I suspect Apple is likely to treat the two as completly sepearate
support programs, with two very different retail prices.

MacOS 8 will most likely be the consumer OS at less than $300
and Rhapsody as the Enterprise or Professional OS at greater
that $500.

In article , "Michael Makhlouf"
 wrote:

> I wonder what would Metrowerks think of this. 250 US$ is less than what
> Codewarrior costs. I wonder if Apple and metrowerks have made some secret
> deal in exchange for Metrowerks supporting Rhapsody. Although I sincerely
> hope, for my sake and Apple's, that the 250 $ developer program will include
> Developer tools, I am afraid that this won't be the case.I think they will
> include it with ETO (for around $1000). Of course this is just speculation.
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From: stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Alpha app icons on NT
Date: 9 Mar 1997 21:52:14 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
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I was wondering how to achieve partially transparent app icons for your apps 
on NT. It doesn't eat tiffs, and when I convert my TIFF with alpha to BMP 
using pretty much any converter I know of, it just laughs and converts the 
Alpha component to black.

Any clues?

Thanks!
- Stan
---

Nature photography:   http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~stanj
NeXTmail and MIME:    stanj@cs.stanford.edu

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GDB Features In 4.X, As Versus MW?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 9 Mar 1997 19:17:54 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article , Charles William Swiger  wrote:

> What about the "browse stack" buttons in the 'Gdb...' panel of Edit.app?

In 4.1, you don't use Edit.app anymore for source browsing, GDB access
is integrated into ProjectBuilder, and the stack browser appears to
have vanished.  Instead, you select an object to print out in the
source code and click on the Print button to print it out (as text) in
the inferior gdb process window.  And I don't see how you can print out
that object's instance variables very easily.

I'd love to be mistaken about that, though.. the browser was real handy.
Maybe I just don't know how to bring it up in 4.1.

Followups to comp.sys.next.programmer, where this thread should have
started in the first place.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 01:59:17 GMT
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In <<332192A6.313D@online.disney.com>>, 
Joseph Panico  wrote:

>I have to disagree. Java, without JIT, is probably an order of magnitude
>slower than ObjC. With a top of the line JIT, it's probably on par with
>ObjC. And yet, c++ programmers are abandoning c++ for Java at an
>astounding pace?
>Why is this?

	Mainly because it's Hot! & New! and it look good an a resume right
now.  And actually few are "abandoning" C++ for Java.  Mostly they are
just learning & experimenting with Java, while they continue to do
their real work in C++.  And, recent surveys show that many people are
finally realizing tha Java isn't the panacea it was hyped as, and
putting it aside.  My prediction: within two years, Java will be used
strictly for simply web page applications.
       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 01:59:11 GMT
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In <<3319DCB7.6821@online.disney.com>>, 
Joseph Panico  wrote:

>Apparently, choosing a sort method to illustrate my point was a little
>unfortunate, as it allowed some people to focus on the wrong thing. The
>point has nothing to do with implementation-- the point was *design*.

	Yes, which is why I dealt with the two issues separately.  But my
point was, a good design with a bad implementation is no better that a
bad design.	

>Incidentally, in Obj-C I could write the actual sort implementation in c
>or even assembler, if I were worried about performance, so the idea that
>you must take a hit using Obj-C is bogus.

	So, your point is that Obj-C is very effecient as long as you don't
use it?  Heck, I could use C or even assembler it write effecient
rountines for programs I write in BASIC.  But why should I be switch
back & forth between languages?  With C++, I can have near perfect OOP
design and full performance using only one language throughout.


>The biggest problem with business applications (short of olap or
>modelling) is definitely not performance. The biggest issue is
>manageability, specifically managing complexity.  

	I've rarely heard users complain that a program was tough for the
programmers to maintain.   But nearly everyday I hear someone
complaining that a program is "too damn slow".


       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 01:59:23 GMT
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In <<4n7kZb_00iWl070Vg0@andrew.cmu.edu>>, 
Charles William Swiger  wrote:

>[ ...apologies for quoting a lot, but I need to leave the context in... ]

	oooow!  Someone who actually cares about wasted bandwidth....

[a lot of good information about NeXTStep's ObjC implementation
snipped]

	Your points are well-taken, but I see them mostly as NeXT just
providing for it's users a class library it make the unfortunate
aspects of ObjC less onerous.   As we speak, (OK, maybe not as I
write, but probably as you read, since the meeting starts Sunday
9-Mar-97), the ANSI/ISO C++ Standardization Comittee is working on a
class library it make the unfortunate aspects of C++ less onerous,
(and to allow the use to better take advantage of it's strengths).  On
a theortical level, an ISO standard is better since it would be common
to all implementations, but on a practical level, they are about the
same, since the NeXT implementation of ObjC is virtually the entire
ObjC marketplace.

>Obj-C code is therefore easier to maintain than C++ code, because you
>never have to worry about changing the sorting implementation-- all you
>have to do is maintain the code that compares the two objects.

	Well, no.   Remember that ISO standard C++ I just mentioned -- it
includes a sort template.  which mean all I have to do is maintain
the code that compares the two objects.

	[quoteback of my pathological example snipped]

>That's because you cheated.  Hell, you could write the same code you did
>in Obj-C without using any function calls, either:

>If you had this:

>@interface T : Object {
>    int realval;
>    char blah[100];
>    // more stuff
>}
>@end

>...and you had some code somewhere, you could do:

>    if (x->realval < y->realval) {
>        int t = x->realval;
>        y->realval = x->realval;
>        y->realval = t->realval;
>    }

>...and get exactly the same behavior and performance of the C++ version.

	Yes--- But there are important differences.  First of all, realval
would most likely be a private data item, which means you could only
access it from a member function.  But then, this might as well be a
member function, since it must be specifically hand-coded for objects
of this type.

	In my example, I did *NOT* hand-code that section.  All I did was
define a operator<() function and an operator=() function and used the
STANDARD LIBRARY template function, sort().  The process of
customizing the sort() template into a sort function specific to the
needs of the object was handled by the compiler. 

	This allows me to create objects of, say, the Widget class defined by
one third-party vendor, put them into a collection, say BagOWidgets
using a Bag template defined by a different third party vendor, and
sort them using the sort() tempalte function defined in the standard
library, without the two vendors having to know about each other,
without me having to know a single implementation detail of either
vendors' classes, and with me writing only a single line:
	sort(BagOWidgets.begin(), BagOWidget.end());
and nevertheless, the sort function used will be automatically
customized (at compile-time) for the needs of both the collection &
the object (for example, the standard library sort() can automatically
deduce, at compile-time, if the collection allows dynamic access (ie,
an array) or sequential access (ie, a linked-list), and generated the
correct algorithm for it).
(note, if you were sorting lot of collections, you might want to to
define that in a tempalte as well:
template inline sort(T t) {sort(t.start(), t.end());}
and then you can simplify you writing a bit:

	sort(BagOWidgets);
	sort(ArrayOfWhatsits);
	sort(ListOfThingamabobs);

The point of all this is that with ObjC, you can have perfect OOD,
with a single sort() which takes a generic collection of generic
objects, and sorts them, very slowly through run-time binding. Or you
can throw it all away,  and hand code lots of sort functions each of
which sorts a differnent type of collection of different objects
quickly by depending on the application programmer knowing the
internal implementation details of the class.

	With C++,  you must give up some theortic OOD concepts (mainly,
late-binding), but still use a single sort function which takes a
generic collection of generic objects and sorts them very quickly
through compile-time binding, without the application programmer
having to know any of the objects or collections implementation
details.

>Assuming you don't cheat and you have to use C++ virtual functions to
>access instance variables and perform a real copy, you'll get very
>nearly the same overhead that you would using Obj-C methods to access
>ivars and do a real copy.

	Why is using non-virtual functions "cheating"?   Virtual functions are
needed if the class is a base for some inherited class.  But not all
classes are intended to be base classes.  I believe, in the real
world, most classes aren't.  And, even those that are, don't always
use the virtual mechanism.  for example:

	class B
	{  virtual inline void func() { cout << "B::func" << endl;}
	}
	class D: public B
	{  virtual inline void func() { cout << "D::func" << endl;}
	}

	func2(B *pB)
	{
		B	b;
		D	d;

		b.func();	// known B.  Direct call to B::func(), inlined
		d.func();	// known D. Direct call to D::func(), inlined

		pB->func();
		// could be B or D.   Indirect "virtual" call to appropriate 
		// func() used.  not inlined.
	}

       Truth,
       James

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From: "zarf" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 00:48:23 GMT
Organization: zarfism
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Michael S. Barthelemy  wrote in article
<5fur7h$b6u@medusa.is.com>...
> In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org> "zarf"
 writes:
> > Do you foresee any technical hitches for Apple-Next,  or third-party if
> > necessary, to provide the following arrangement:
> > 
> > * make the Mac global horizontal menubar the default under Rhapsody for
> > those who afraid to leave the single-tasking look
> > 
> > * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style for those of us who
want
> > to  graduate to the NeXT level
> 
> It is entirely possible -- even relatively easy -- however the easiest
way of supporting it would be that the NEXTSTEP  
> style menus would have the same heirarchy as the Mac ones.  The second
easiest way would be to do what NeXT does for  
> supporting OPENSTEP on Windows -- have two nib files with the different
menu styles in them.
> 
> Mike Barthelemy
> msb@plexare.com

Yes, but my fear -  b/c I'm not very familiar with the Openstep
architecture -  is that if AppleNext doesn't provide for "nib-switching" on
Rhapsody that the capability for a 3rd-party to do this might not be there.

 I mean, more than the appropriately designed NIB files is required, no? I
thought, they simply describe the layout/order of the menus, not their
appearance and behaviour. In which case, someone would have to tinker with
or over-ride the Openstep code that handles the menu appearance. I'm hoping
for some technical details that would demonstrate that this is not
undocumented or otherwise out of the reach of Next hackers.

Perfect paranoia is perfect awareness.
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 02:01:36 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Thomas  wrote:
: I benchmarked method dispatch in Kaffe (the free JIT for Java) to be the
: the same speed as C++, taking about half the time of GNU Objective-C
: method dispatch.

The way Kaffe implements its method dispatch, the dispatches are not
dynamic! The first usage of a method causes the "lookup", which is then
forever cached and never rechecked.

This would be similar to using ObjC to grab a method pointer, and then
calling it for everything.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: stone@enetis.net (Kevin and Brian Stone)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 9 Mar 1997 20:09:56 -0700
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zarf (zarf@zarfism.com) wrote:
: As a current Mac user I'm concerned that some of my fellow Mac
: users/cry-babies could torpedo the availability of the NeXT HI under
: Rhapsody. Though they are vocal, I know I'm not the only Mac user who,
: though  amazed ten years ago by the Mac look and feel, now feels confined
: by its age and backwardness.
         ^^^     ^^^^^^^^^^^^

Do you really?  Sad.  Seen Windows 95 lately?  Getting around the system 
through lists and menus isn't my idea of advanced.  Even without 
Pre-emptive multitasking, or multi-threaded apps... the MacOS and ONLY 
the MacOS provides the high level of intuitive features combined with a 
powerful interface that allows you to organize and use information on 
your drives as YOU would... not as the system would conform you to.  
Sorry... I'd give up so-called modern features like pre-emptive 
multasking to keep the vastly superior design and interface of the 
MacOS.  That and that alone makes the MacOS more powerful than anything 
the PC has to offer.

But like you, I believe that the NeXTSTEP has something to offer the 
MacOS.  I believe Apple's intent to marry the two is to create something 
unique by combining the good elements of both OS's into one seamless 
environment.  Pull away contextual menus, pre-emptive multtasking, and 
multi-threaded apps can only help the MacOS be better than what is 
today.  Still... I find it rediculous to think that some people think that 
the MacOS is not great just the way it is in terms of it's Human Interface 
and GUI (no insult intended).   

-Kevin Stone
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From: michael@nexus1.tng.oche.de.no.spam (Michael Pieper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: help me with ppp
Date: 6 Mar 1997 16:47:33 GMT
Organization: I.N.-Regionaldomain oche.de, Aachen, Germany
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jlimpert@pathfinder.com (john limpert) wrote:
>i have nextstep 3.3 for intel and a pc w/ 28.8 modem.
>
>how do I get a ppp connection to the internet established??

Take ppp_2_2.0.4.6.s.tar.gz and GateKeeper.2.0.Beta.6.s.tar.gz (or a newer 
version) from the archives.  It shouldn't be to difficult.

Michael
-- 
Michael Pieper,   Bluecherplatz 14,   D-52068 Aachen, 
Tel. : +49 - (0)241 - 902455    Fax: +49 - (0)241 - 902456
Mail : michael@nexus1.tng.oche.de	(NeXTmail and MIME welcome)
PGP : Public Key on demand
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From: Chris Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: newbie question
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 22:25:17 -0500
Organization: ObjectWorks Inc.
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To: David Herren 
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David Herren wrote:

  I'm attempting to do the tutorials in Gene Backlin's book,
  "Developing
  Nextstep Applications." However, I am attempting this under Openstep

  4.1 so I have had to make some changes to his suggested code. Here's

  his suggested code in a cheasy application that is to get the rect
  of
  a window:

  #import "WindowController.h"

  @implementation WindowController

  - getTheFrame:sender
  {
  NXRect theFrame;

  [window getFrame:&theFrame];

  [originX setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.x];
  [originY setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.y];
  [sizeWidth setFloatValue:theFrame.size.width];
  [sizeHeight setFloatValue:theFrame.size.height];

  return self:
  }

  @end

  I know that at least the following changes must be made under
  openstep:

  #import "WindowController.h"

  @implementation WindowController

  - (void)getTheFrame:(id)sender
  {
  NSRect theFrame;

  [window getFrame:&theFrame];

  [originX setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.x];
  [originY setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.y];
  [sizeWidth setFloatValue:theFrame.size.width];
  [sizeHeight setFloatValue:theFrame.size.height];

  }

  @end

  When I attempt to compile this I get the error "cannot find method
  ...
  return type for "getFrame' defaults to id

  What other changes do I need to make here?

  --
  David Herren --------------------------------------------------
  Web: http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/
  General: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu
  NeXTMail only: herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

David,

OpenStep gave methods that returned NSRect, NSSize &NSPoints (
getFrame: and getBounds:) a little more oo look and feel by transforming
them into (NSRect)frame and (NSRect)bounds.  Modifying your code to the
below should fix your compiler warning.  Check out NSView docs and
NSGeometry header in the Foundation framework.

- (void)getTheFrame:(id)sender
{
NSRect theFrame;

theFrame = [window frame];

[originX setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.x];
[originY setFloatValue:theFrame.origin.y];
[sizeWidth setFloatValue:theFrame.size.width];
[sizeHeight setFloatValue:theFrame.size.height];

}

Chris Johnson



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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun,  9 Mar 1997 23:14:03 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 9-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
> >[ ...apologies for quoting a lot, but I need to leave the context in... ]
>  
>         oooow!  Someone who actually cares about wasted bandwidth....

Someone's got to.
  
> [a lot of good information about NeXTStep's ObjC implementation
> snipped]
>  
>         Your points are well-taken, but I see them mostly as NeXT just
> providing for it's users a class library it make the unfortunate
> aspects of ObjC less onerous. 

That's what libraries are supposed to be for, though.  Just like
programming in C is pretty onerous without ANSI-C, Obj-C without any of
the class libraries would be unpleasant.

If we're going to consider the merits of Obj-C and C++ for real world
development, then we need to consider what people actually have and use
when writing code.  People use the common Obj-C classes all the time,
and they would create their own implementations if things like List or
NSArray, HashTbale or NSDictionary, NSString, and so forth did not exist.

[ ... ]
> As we speak, (OK, maybe not as I
> write, but probably as you read, since the meeting starts Sunday
> 9-Mar-97), the ANSI/ISO C++ Standardization Comittee is working on a
> class library it make the unfortunate aspects of C++ less onerous,
> (and to allow the use to better take advantage of it's strengths).  On
> a theortical level, an ISO standard is better since it would be common
> to all implementations, but on a practical level, they are about the
> same, since the NeXT implementation of ObjC is virtually the entire
> ObjC marketplace.

I believe the OPENSTEP standard is being submitted to one of the
industry standards groups like OMG or X/Open.

>> Obj-C code is therefore easier to maintain than C++ code, because you
>> never have to worry about changing the sorting implementation-- all you
>> have to do is maintain the code that compares the two objects.
>  
>         Well, no.   Remember that ISO standard C++ I just mentioned -- it
> includes a sort template.  which mean all I have to do is maintain
> the code that compares the two objects.

You mean the standard that _might_ have been voted on today?  Well, in
that case, up until _VERY_ recently, the C++ version has required more
maintainance effort than the Obj-C version has.

>         [quoteback of my pathological example snipped]
>  
>> That's because you cheated.  Hell, you could write the same code you did
>> in Obj-C without using any function calls, either:
[ ... ]
>>...and get exactly the same behavior and performance of the C++ version.
>  
>         Yes--- But there are important differences.  First of all, realval
> would most likely be a private data item, which means you could only
> access it from a member function.

Okay, so?  If you've got to access the ivar through a member function in
both C++ and Obj-C, we aren't comparing the speed of doing four or so
integer operations with a couple of Obj-C method dispatches, now are we?
 We're comparing the speeds of C++ method dispatches versus Obj-C
dispatches.

[ ... ]
> The point of all this is that with ObjC, you can have perfect OOD,
> with a single sort() which takes a generic collection of generic
> objects, and sorts them, very slowly through run-time binding.

It sorts them in N-log-N time with the same algorithmic worst-case
performance that the C++ sort function provides.  The difference between
even the speed of Obj-C message dispatches compared to even direct
integer operations is a constant factor.

[ ... ]
>         With C++,  you must give up some theortic OOD concepts (mainly,
> late-binding), but still use a single sort function which takes a
> generic collection of generic objects and sorts them very quickly
> through compile-time binding, without the application programmer
> having to know any of the objects or collections implementation
> details.

That's right.  However, my own experience suggests that most of the
time, I'll either require the flexibility of the dynamic dispatch and
late binding of Obj-C, or else I'm dealing with some data structure
which has a critical impact on the performance of the system, and I'll
end up writing a little hand-tuned code anyways.

Obj-C may perform worse than C++ by a constant factor for the
intermediate solution, but that's far less important to me than the
issue of C++ utterly failing to provide a good solution when you require
the functionality of a dynamic runtime with late binding and so forth.

>> Assuming you don't cheat and you have to use C++ virtual functions to
>> access instance variables and perform a real copy, you'll get very
>> nearly the same overhead that you would using Obj-C methods to access
>> ivars and do a real copy.
>  
> Why is using non-virtual functions "cheating"?   Virtual functions are
> needed if the class is a base for some inherited class.

That's right-- I don't believe in designing objects under the assumption
that they will never be subclassed.  Comparing C++ virtual dispatches to
the fully dynamic Obj-C method dispatches is a fair comparison.

> But not all classes are intended to be base classes.  I believe, in the real
> world, most classes aren't.  And, even those that are, don't always
> use the virtual mechanism.  for example:

Sure, but you can achieve the same exact thing with Obj-C by memoizing
the function implementation associated with a method and calling that
directly, or by dereferencing an ivar directly from the structure
instead of using an accessor function.

It's even possible that you could arrange for the compiler to inline the
function implementation directly-- GCC has an optimizer which will
automatically inline functions into their callers, although I don't
believe that it currently tries to do so for Obj-C methods.

However, the specific implementation of the GCC compiler right now does
not imply anything about whether Obj-C as a lnguage can achieve a
similar speed to C++ by inlining code _if_ you're willing to completely
give up dynamic dispatching in favor of inlining everything at compile
time the way C++ does.  C++ simply has better syntactic sugar than Obj-C
for producing efficient code when you've willing to perform binding at
compile time.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun,  9 Mar 1997 23:31:48 -0500
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 9-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
> >Incidentally, in Obj-C I could write the actual sort implementation in c
> >or even assembler, if I were worried about performance, so the idea that
> >you must take a hit using Obj-C is bogus.
>  
>         So, your point is that Obj-C is very effecient as long as you don't
> use it?  Heck, I could use C or even assembler it write effecient
> rountines for programs I write in BASIC.  But why should I be switch
> back & forth between languages?  With C++, I can have near perfect OOP
> design and full performance using only one language throughout.

The claim that a language without dynamic (late) binding provides "near
perfect OOP design" involves a religious issue that we're just never
going to agree on.

I can point to large C++ projects like Taligent which have shown very
little of the supposed merits of OOP such as code reusability, clean and
portable classes, a sensible class hierarchy instead of an overbloated
one, delegation and forwarding ala Smalltalk, etc.  Can you point to a
large C++ project which does exhibit the beneficial properties that OOP
should provide?

>> The biggest problem with business applications (short of olap or
>> modelling) is definitely not performance. The biggest issue is
>> manageability, specifically managing complexity.  
>  
>         I've rarely heard users complain that a program was tough for the
> programmers to maintain.   But nearly everyday I hear someone
> complaining that a program is "too damn slow".

Were any of those programs you refer to as "too damn slow" written in
Obj-C?  Could some of them been written in C++, instead?

I still use a 33 MHz 68040 NeXTstation, and there are few Obj-C programs
that I consider to be slow.  The supposed performance problems you've
claimed must exist with Obj-C don't appear even on real-world machines
that are slower by roughly an order of magnitude than the machines being
sold today.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 9 Mar 1997 23:41:27 -0000
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In article <5fvu24$gvl@enet1.enetis.net>, stone@enetis.net (Kevin and Brian Stone) wrote:

> zarf (zarf@zarfism.com) wrote:

> : As a current Mac user I'm concerned that some of my fellow Mac
> : users/cry-babies could torpedo the availability of the NeXT HI under
> : Rhapsody. Though they are vocal, I know I'm not the only Mac user who,
> : though  amazed ten years ago by the Mac look and feel, now feels confined
> : by its age and backwardness.
>          ^^^     ^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Do you really?  Sad.  Seen Windows 95 lately?  Getting around the system 
> through lists and menus isn't my idea of advanced.

Comparing it to Windows 95 wasn't the point.  Comparing it to NeXT's HI
was.  I think that the poster is correct if you compare the two, though
I agree that the Win95 interface isn't great.

> Even without 
> Pre-emptive multitasking, or multi-threaded apps... the MacOS and ONLY 
> the MacOS provides the high level of intuitive features combined with a 
> powerful interface that allows you to organize and use information on 
> your drives as YOU would... not as the system would conform you to.  

I don't think you've actually used a NEXTSTEP system before.  I agree
that the MacOS interface is good, better than most of its competitors,
but it's not improving as fast as the others are; Windows has already
progressed from awful (Windows 3.1) to bearable enough that I'm willing
to use it (Windows NT 4.0).  And I think the Mac interface still isn't as
good as NEXTSTEP already is.  (Though on the "as the system would conform
you to", NEXTSTEP is sometimes picky about file placement and movement.)
MacOS just hasn't been keeping up with real, useful user-interface
functionality (like NeXT's Dock, menus, Services, shelves, inspectors,
browsers, miniaturized windows, standard color wells, etc.).  It _has_
been improving, and has a few nice features I haven't seen elsewhere,
but most of its latest UI improvements are either things already existing
on NEXTSTEP or things I classify as "eye-candy"; pretty, but nothing
that really helps me get my work done better.  Not that NEXTSTEP doesn't
have its share of UI weaknesses; I have a long list of improvements I'd
like to see.  But pretty much everything on that list isn't available
anywhere else, either.

> Sorry... I'd give up so-called modern features like pre-emptive 
> multasking to keep the vastly superior design and interface of the 
> MacOS.

(Uh, drop the word "design" and keep the word "interface"..)

Personally, having an OS that doesn't crash all the time and lets me do
than more than one thing at once is pretty high on my priority list.
The Mac I use at home crashes far too often (I think System 11 is the
usual error), losing all my work, and I just _love_ the way that
transferring files on the net grinds the system to a halt if I try to do
anything else while downloading.

With NEXTSTEP, I get vastly superior design, vastly superior interface,
_and_ "modern" features (yes, they are only "so-called" modern,
since they've been around in Unix for relative ages) like pre-emptive
multitasking, true protected virtual memory, and multi-threaded apps.

> But like you, I believe that the NeXTSTEP has something to offer the 
> MacOS.  I believe Apple's intent to marry the two is to create something 
> unique by combining the good elements of both OS's into one seamless 
> environment.

Of course both systems have something to bring to the table.
Unfortunately, you seem to think that the elements worth keeping from
NEXTSTEP (except for maybe the menus) only come from the core OS level.
I think that the Mac would stand to gain much from the NEXTSTEP UI
as well.

> Still... I find it rediculous to think that some people think that 
> the MacOS is not great just the way it is in terms of it's Human Interface 
> and GUI (no insult intended).   

I think that it's very good, and used to be great.  But I don't think
it's the ONLY good UI around, and I think that it hasn't kept up with
the times well enough.

Followups to comp.sys.next.advocacy.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5fvhkq$tru@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
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-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: pbrown@ashkhabad.berkeley.edu (Paul R. Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 05:20:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
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In article <5fvu24$gvl@enet1.enetis.net>, Kevin and Brian Stone wrote:
>zarf (zarf@zarfism.com) wrote:
>: As a current Mac user I'm concerned that some of my fellow Mac
>: users/cry-babies could torpedo the availability of the NeXT HI under
>: Rhapsody. Though they are vocal, I know I'm not the only Mac user who,
>: though  amazed ten years ago by the Mac look and feel, now feels confined
>: by its age and backwardness.
>         ^^^     ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Do you really?  Sad.  Seen Windows 95 lately?  Getting around the system 
>through lists and menus isn't my idea of advanced.  Even without 
>Pre-emptive multitasking, or multi-threaded apps... the MacOS and ONLY 
>the MacOS provides the high level of intuitive features combined with a 
>powerful interface that allows you to organize and use information on 
>your drives as YOU would... not as the system would conform you to.  

Since when does organization of the system areas impede the features
of a user interface?

>Sorry... I'd give up so-called modern features like pre-emptive 
>multasking to keep the vastly superior design and interface of the 
>MacOS.  That and that alone makes the MacOS more powerful than anything 
>the PC has to offer.

Trade multi-tasking and multi-threading for being coddled by the
operating system? With all due respect, you want your mommy, not a
computer... It's easy to hide powerful, useful, and incomprehensible
to the usual user features, but it's shortsighted to ask that those
features be left out.

I NEED a computer which can do many things at once. I started using
computers back when a 1MHz Apple II was a decent machine. Some people
still use it, some people miss it, but it's gone. Then, it was an IBM
PC, then a DEC Vax PDP 11/80 through a VT-220, then a Macintosh, and
then a NeXT. My now six year old machine sits on my desk, churns
through long-term computations "nice"'d down so that they don't affect
the responsiveness to my use of the machine (now there's something I
like about Be's ideas; I'm looking forward to Rhapsody running on dual
PPC machines...), runs tens of applications at once, all under a
seamless, uniform UI.

>But like you, I believe that the NeXTSTEP has something to offer the 
>MacOS.  I believe Apple's intent to marry the two is to create something 
>unique by combining the good elements of both OS's into one seamless 
>environment.  Pull away contextual menus, pre-emptive multtasking, and 
>multi-threaded apps can only help the MacOS be better than what is 
>today.  Still... I find it rediculous to think that some people think that 
>the MacOS is not great just the way it is in terms of it's Human Interface 
>and GUI (no insult intended).

The MacOS is a decent operating system, but it's time to move on;
there is SO much more out there...

Have you ever seen a NeXT or used one? Find one, try it. 

You'll see that the NeXT was the answer and the logical successor to
the MacOS *6* years ago if not longer. I appreciate your worry about
losing the features that you've gotten comfortable with, but there is
nothing to worry about. It's always possible to round the rough spots,
but there is no way to get the sharp edges back (witness MacOS's
stagnation)...

	- Paul

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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:20:13 +0100
Organization: Syndetics Research
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Mark Bessey  wrote:

> Luc Dubois writes
> > Now, if only Apple would turn this ugly ULTRA-FAT-Binary technology into
> > "Slim-Binaries" by utilising Semantic Dictionary Encoding, they could at
> > the same time and in one fell swoop pull control over the internet from
> > under Microsoft as well (OK, Microsoft doesn't yet control the Internet,
> > but they have every intention of trying to get it).
> 
> That's an interesting idea, but we'd be swimming against the tide. How
> about this: If we have the OpenStep library on a large % of desktops, and
> an OpenStep-to-Java interface, we can leverage the platform-independence
> of Java with our kick-butt native-code class library...

Equally interesting idea! :-)
But... but... but... Hasn't Apple become what it is, *exactly because*
it wasn't/isn't afraid of swimming against the tide? Now, Java as I see
it is a nice first attempt at platform-independence. There currently
*is* already a better technology available. It's called "Juice" and is
based on the language Oberon (from the school of Niklaus Wirth). Instead
of byte-codes, Juice is based on SDE, producing "slim binaries". It
takes into account the different growth rates of processor power vs. I/O
speed. A comprehensive package of network tools, comprising a WWW
browser, a telnet application (VT100 emulation), POP/SMPT-Mail, News,
Finger, FTP and Gopher application in PowerPC binary code takes 603
kilobytes. Compiled in "slim binary" format, this is just 191 kilobytes!
Loading the complete program (all 7 modules) from PowerPC binaries takes
1.1 second (Macintosh 8100/100) while it requires about 2.1 seconds to
load from "slim binaries". This loading time of slim binaries includes
on-the-fly compilation! I'd like to see byte-code based Java beat that!

Check it out on 

Mind you, I'm not saying that Apple should ignore Java. Obviously, for
better or for worse, it *is* the fad du jour. But I believe that if an
alternative were presented (and backed by a major player) today, there
would be some real interest. Competition is what causes this industry to
make progress, isn't it?

Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: ashley@cs.curtin.edu.au (Ashley Aitken)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 97 05:35:24 GMT
Organization: Curtin University of Technology	
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stone@enetis.net (Kevin and Brian Stone) writes:
>Do you really?  Sad.  Seen Windows 95 lately?  Getting around the system 
>through lists and menus isn't my idea of advanced.  Even without 
>Pre-emptive multitasking, or multi-threaded apps... the MacOS and ONLY 
>the MacOS provides the high level of intuitive features combined with a 
>powerful interface that allows you to organize and use information on 
>your drives as YOU would... not as the system would conform you to.  
>Sorry... I'd give up so-called modern features like pre-emptive 
>multasking to keep the vastly superior design and interface of the 
>MacOS.  That and that alone makes the MacOS more powerful than anything 
>the PC has to offer.

Here! Here! (what does that mean?)

I agree 100%.  The Mac UI provides the most consistent and convincing desktop 
metaphor that I know of (I've played with most).  Others just don't "feel" as
convincing (well, to me at least).   I feel ill at-ease on a Windows 3.1/95, 
or even OS/2 desktop.  It just doesn't feel right.  It's the difference between
"yeah there are some icons on the screen in front of me" and "there are my files
lets do some work" (or something like that).  As with Kevin, I personally would
trade "modern features" for this GUI.  It is too good.

Now, having said that I don't deny that NeXSTEP could be better.  I've played 
with it a little a show - but I must admit it didn't feel as good (give it
time, and I will).  Still, any GUI that focuses on a "file browser" (or what
ever they are called) to navigate the "filing cabinet" sure loses my votes for
GUI of the year.  Don't get me wrong, I am keen to get into Rhapsody - I just
hope I feel as "at home" on the desktop as I do in front of my current Mac.

Cheers,
Ashley.

PS  I also use Unix command line interface a lot, and I manage to construct
    (with quite a bit more effort than on the Mac) a model of my files in 
    the directory hierarchy.  

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From: jbf_see_signature@frazer.com (James B. Frazer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GDB Features In 4.X, As Versus MW?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 02:05:45 -0500
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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In article , Charles William Swiger
 wrote:

> Sorry, but I think your criticism was unfounded-- you can do everything
> you've asked of the combination of GDB, Edit.app, and ProjectBuilder in
> a nice, intuitive, graphical, easy to use, etc fashion.

You're absolutely right. I didn't give it an adequate piece of test
code (the optimizer decided I wasn't doing anything useful and dumped
the variables I was expecting to look at). Gave it a real app and it
worked just fine (in NS 3.3).

Can someone comment about Nathan Urban's post that

> In 4.1 ... the stack browser appears to have vanished.

snip

> Maybe I just don't know how to bring it up in 4.1.

Barney (delete that _see_signature to email me)
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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 06:47:07 GMT
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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>I believe the equilvant ObjC code (in it's simple, obvious form) would
>be something along the lines of:
>	if ( [x lessthan: y] )
>	{
>	   T t;
>	      [t init:x];
>	      [x copyfrom:y]
>	      [y copyfrom:t]
>	}
>
>       Truth,
>       James

Well you'd be wrong.  At least I developed a system in C++ and bothered to 
learn the language and its idioms before I decided it was total shitte.  I'd 
suggest you learn about Objective-C before condemning it.  If I knew as 
little about Objective-C as you seem to, I wouldn't want to use it either.

The Truth is out there, but you definitely don't have a handle on it.
Tony
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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 03:44:35 -0800
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jbf_see_signature@frazer.com (James B. Frazer) writes:

>> In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org> "zarf"
> writes:

>> * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style for those of us who want
>> to  graduate to the NeXT level

>Or regress? Never liked the waste of screen real estate myself, altho
>tear offs and second button popups are nice.

My next menus don't take up any screen real estate, until I hit the 
right mouse button.  You can go into the preferences app, and place the
default menu location *off the screen*.  Other people will sitck them down
at the bottom, so that only the name of the app on the main menu is
visible.  

Mac menus take up the top of the screen all the time, except in those
apps that hide them.  You still can't use the top twenty pixels though,
in most cases, since moving the mouse to the top reveals the menu bar.

-jcr

(What I *really* want, are right-mouse-button-controlled pie menus!)


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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 03:50:41 -0800
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"zarf"  writes:

[mike's stuff about nib files munched]

>Yes, but my fear -  b/c I'm not very familiar with the Openstep
>architecture -  is that if AppleNext doesn't provide for "nib-switching" on
>Rhapsody that the capability for a 3rd-party to do this might not be there.

Trust me, it's *easy*. 

> I mean, more than the appropriately designed NIB files is required, no? I
>thought, they simply describe the layout/order of the menus, not their
>appearance and behaviour. In which case, someone would have to tinker with
>or over-ride the Openstep code that handles the menu appearance. I'm hoping
>for some technical details that would demonstrate that this is not
>undocumented or otherwise out of the reach of Next hackers.

I could knock it out in about a week, including testing.  Mike Barthelemy
or Scott Hess could do this in an overnight hack, since they're keeping
in practice.

The only really tricky part would be patching it back into the shared
library, so that *all* the apps got the new menu styles.  Sticking into
one app is trivial.

-jcr

>Perfect paranoia is perfect awareness.
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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 04:03:57 -0800
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stone@enetis.net (Kevin and Brian Stone) writes:

>zarf (zarf@zarfism.com) wrote:
>: As a current Mac user I'm concerned that some of my fellow Mac
>: users/cry-babies could torpedo the availability of the NeXT HI under
>: Rhapsody. Though they are vocal, I know I'm not the only Mac user who,
>: though  amazed ten years ago by the Mac look and feel, now feels confined
>: by its age and backwardness.
>         ^^^     ^^^^^^^^^^^^

>Do you really?  Sad.  Seen Windows 95 lately?  Getting around the system 
>through lists and menus isn't my idea of advanced.  Even without 
>Pre-emptive multitasking, or multi-threaded apps... the MacOS and ONLY 
>the MacOS provides the high level of intuitive features combined with a 
>powerful interface that allows you to organize and use information on 
>your drives as YOU would... not as the system would conform you to.  
>Sorry... I'd give up so-called modern features like pre-emptive 
>multasking to keep the vastly superior design and interface of the 
>MacOS.  That and that alone makes the MacOS more powerful than anything 
>the PC has to offer.

This statement really highlights one of the major causes of the Mac UI
team's insularity.  The only other GUIs they really looked at were 
windows, (crap) OpenLook (Worse), and CDE (knock-off of Windows 3.x)
SInce they never actually looked at a better GUI, they (falsely) concluded
that nobody but apple ever mad a GUI that wasn't crap.

But, keep in mind who the NeXT designers were: The cream of the apple
crop, that Jobs had taken away from apple.  That's why the NeXT UI
solves so many of the irritating deficiencies of the Mac UI.  

Your remark above, "seen w95 lately?" expresses the false premise that
any deviation from the Mac GUI is worse.  OF COURSE W95's GUI IS CRAP!
So what?  Who's trying to make the Mac emulate it?

>But like you, I believe that the NeXTSTEP has something to offer the 
>MacOS.  I believe Apple's intent to marry the two is to create something 
>unique by combining the good elements of both OS's into one seamless 
>environment.  Pull away contextual menus, pre-emptive multtasking, and 
>multi-threaded apps can only help the MacOS be better than what is 
>today.  Still... I find it rediculous to think that some people think that 
>the MacOS is not great just the way it is in terms of it's Human Interface 
>and GUI (no insult intended).   

There are *many* failings in the Mac UI.  The open and save dialog boxes
are excreble.  File navigation in the finder either shows you that
collapsible outline view, or subjects you to a terrible level of window
clutter.  When I use the miller-column browsers that NeXT provides,
I can always tell where the file I'm clicking on is in the entire
heirarchy of the disk.  Expand a folder in the "name" view of the finder,
and suddenly you're trying to scroll through a list that can be hundreds
of lines long.

The NeXT UI is superior. Try it for a whole week of real work, 
and then tell me if you disagree.

-jcr

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From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr
Subject: Initializing a Text subclass?
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:53:41 GMT
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How would you initialize a Text object subclass with some 
specific think like color, font or rotation?
	For example I've done this method : 
- initFrame:() text:() alignment:() rotation:() fontName:() 
fontSize:() color:()
in which I make :
	super initFrame:&myRect text:myText 
alignment:NX_LEFTALIGNED
	self setTextColor:myColor
	self setFont:(a new Font with my fontName and 
fontSize)
But this doesn't work perfectly for the Font...
So what to do???
--
---------------------------------------
				
			
		 |				  
		O_O				 
						
					 |
					O_O
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Fred Galot								
fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr
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From: jchan@apk.net (Jerome Chan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Newbie Interface Builder Question
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:28:55 -0500
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If I create an instance of a class from the interface builder and then add
elements to it later on, do I have to recreate the file again in the
Interface Builder? Won't this be bad if I have already written bits of
code in the implementation file that will be overwritten when I create
these files? This looks like quite a big flaw in IB but someone told me I
could just reparse the file. 

How do I do that? The Manuals don't always seem to correspond to the screens:)

---
 The Evil Tofu (Only Human)
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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:44:59 GMT
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In article <5ft5bh$kok@lal.interserv.com> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com  
(James M. Curran) writes:
> With C++, I can have near perfect OOP
> design and full performance using only one language throughout.

I hardly need to comment on this, but at the same time I can't let it  
pass. It's almost such a stupid statement that it's beneath argmument, but  
I guess I'll throw in a few points...

C++'s total failure to seperate implementation from usage - it's typing is  
entirly based on HOW THE OBJECT HAS BEEN WRITTEN. Inheritance is an  
implementation issue, and not a suitable basis for typing.

Constructors! Ack - its oftern almost imposible to write an object so that  
it can be used in both its base, and subclassed forms due to the braindead  
special case nature of construtors.

Special cases in general - The behaviour of contructors and destructors  
are the worst cases, where they behave totaly differently to normal member  
functions. However just about every feature of the language has at least  
one trip up clause (made worse by very nasty syntax).

Lack of introspection.

Lack of true dynamic binding, which leads to casts - thereby embedding  
assumptions (oftern implicit) about the implementation of an object into  
code.

C++'s idea of OO comes down to, you can call a function on an object, but  
only if you know exactly what that object is, and how it was implemented.  
Somewhat different from the general idea that objects should be  
interchangable components which provide only behaviour (and to all intents  
an purposes have NO implementation - was it aristotle who said that  
character was irrelevant, only plot mattered? Character only exists by  
virtue of observing behaviour).

C++ may be usefull for some applications. It may even be slightly better  
than C, if used carefully. However I think no one could claim it can used  
to implement "near perfect" OO design. All of the above problems cripple  
all but the most basic designs (which the C++ programmer then writes 10000  
lines of code to patch up).

$an
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From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GDB Features In 4.X, As Versus MW?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 14:17:24 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison
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	<5fv2d2$ssp@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
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In <5fv2d2$ssp@sps1.phys.vt.edu> Nathan Urban wrote:
> In article , Charles William Swiger 
 wrote:
> 
> > What about the "browse stack" buttons in the 'Gdb...' panel of Edit.app?
> 
> In 4.1, you don't use Edit.app anymore for source browsing, GDB access
> is integrated into ProjectBuilder, and the stack browser appears to
> have vanished.  Instead, you select an object to print out in the

It's there.  In the execution window, click the button that looks like a 
sprocket, then use the pull-down menu in the resulting window to select 
"stack".





--
Michael Giddings
giddings@chem.wisc.edu 
giddings@barbarian.com
(608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851
http://smithlab.chem.wisc.edu/PersonalPages/giddings/giddings.html
http://www.barbarian.com

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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:02:02 GMT
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In article  maury@softarc.com  
(Maury Markowitz) writes:
> In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org>, "zarf"
>  wrote:
> 
> > * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style 
>   Appearance Manager should handle all of this.

This worries me...

Everyone seems to think that the only thing that makes a UI are a few  
simple window arangements things, which can be handled by a global switch.

IT AINT GONNA WORK!

Sure you can do some basic things, like moving menus around, or changing  
the look of scroll bars, but this is going to break lots of apps, or make  
them behave oddly. For example terminal app (Ok not the best choice!) uses  
it's own scrolling text object, because the standard one doesn't handle  
continuous text very well (Or so Scott said IIRC). It won't (ok, might  
not) pick up the change if the scroll bars are moved to the other side.

Try using X for a while - its easy to customise things, with the result  
that most text doesn't sit in the boxes quite right, and things oftern  
don't line up as the original designer wanted. Even in the well equipped  
NeXT environment developers need to write new UI components - these can  
never be understood by any global manager. How does the developer write  
these to fit with all possible appearances that a user might come up with?

An appearance manager can change some basic things, but it can't change  
the fundamental behaviour - "Church Windows" has a NeXT option, but it  
doesn't give you a NeXT look and feel, just a NeXT make over.

Given that the price of a few cosmetic changes will be nigling differences  
in behaviour between apps, Apple should make the best UI they can, and  
make users stick with it! Are Mac users really so shallow that their  
biggest worry is what colour the title bar will be?

$an
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From: Petr Novak 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Bug in EODisplayGroup delegate method ?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:48:04 +0100
Organization: Impact GmbH,Cologne, Germany
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I call on Openstep 4.1 for NT the method 

- (void)displayGroup:(EODisplayGroup*)aDisplayGroup
didSetValue:(id)value forObject:(id)anObject key:(NSString*)key

Expected argument types doesn't correspond to declaration and
description in Openstep documentation.

value    - EOGenericRecord* 
anObject - NSString* with the name of changed property
key      - EOAssociation*

Petr Novak
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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:39:23 -0500
Organization: Disney Online
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James M. Curran wrote:

  In <<332192A6.313D@online.disney.com>>,
  Joseph Panico  wrote:

  >I have to disagree. Java, without JIT, is probably an order of
  magnitude
  >slower than ObjC. With a top of the line JIT, it's probably on par
  with
  >ObjC. And yet, c++ programmers are abandoning c++ for Java at an
  >astounding pace?
  >Why is this?

          Mainly because it's Hot! & New! and it look good an a resume
  right
  now.  And actually few are "abandoning" C++ for Java.  Mostly they
  are
         Truth,
         James

  Wow, I'm glad you pointed that out. I almost made the mistake of
thinking that garbage collection, a pure object model, run-time
introspection, object based structured exception handling, compile and
run-time security checks, top-to-bottom Unicode foundations, and machine
portability represented a significant advance over c++.  Now that Iknow
java is just trendy Ican learn visual c++ and visual basic so Ican get
that hot job in a large corporate IT department.
--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: Petr Novak 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Newbie Interface Builder Question
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:55:48 +0100
Organization: Impact GmbH,Cologne, Germany
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To: Jerome Chan 

After changing your header file and implementation , you can 'unparse'
you header file back to Interface Builder and your instances will be
updated.

In Nextstep is this option called 'Unparse', in Openstep 'Read File..'

Petr Novak
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From: Petr Novak 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Bug in EODisplayGroup delegate method ?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:39:54 +0100
Organization: Impact GmbH,Cologne, Germany
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This behaviour happened in two different application. However, after
reboot I cannot duplicate the bug. Everything seems to be O.K. Strange.

Petr Novak
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From: rao@supermod.egr.uh.edu (Dr. Jagannatha  Rao)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Emacs.app for OS4.0/Intel?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 16:40:47 GMT
Organization: University of Houston
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I am running OS4.0 on Intel and as documented before, I cannot
compile the latest beta of Emacs.app in this version. (the 
developer list at Omni site has some helpful hints, but
I do not have access to an NS3.3 machine to try the
remedy suggested there).

Can anybody make a  compiled version of Emacs.app 
available that will run under OS4.0 Intel? Ideally, 
I would like it to have compiled
with --prefix=LocalApps/Emacs.app so that all goodies
are inside the Emacs.app folder. Of course I can live
with the default path locations as well, where various stuff
gets into different places under /usr/local etc. 

Jagannatha
--
Jagannatha Rao				E-mail:rao@uh.edu
Department of Mechanical Engineering    Tel   :(713) 743-4535
University of Houston                   Fax   :(713) 743-4503
Houston, TX 77204-4792

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From: "S.FAHIM" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Programming Video Input with QuickCam
Date: 10 Mar 1997 16:24:06 GMT
Organization: Interpac
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Hello,

Did anybody prgrammed a interface for video input thrue a lpt1 port ?
What I would like to do is using a QuickCam with NEXT 3.3.

Sam
samir@interpac.be
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: This used to be c.s.n.programmer not c.s.n.advocacy
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:38:24 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article , Peter.Nitezki@bku.db.de wrote:

> Hey fellas,
> 
> What's happening to this newsgroup?

  Well I don't know what to say, you posted this to
comp.sys.next.programmer AND comp.sys.next.advocacy.

Maury
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GDB Features In 4.X, As Versus MW?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 13:56:05 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article <5g155k$17si@news.doit.wisc.edu>, giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu wrote:

> In <5fv2d2$ssp@sps1.phys.vt.edu> Nathan Urban wrote:

> > In 4.1, you don't use Edit.app anymore for source browsing, GDB access
> > is integrated into ProjectBuilder, and the stack browser appears to
> > have vanished.  Instead, you select an object to print out in the

> It's there.  In the execution window, click the button that looks like a 
> sprocket, then use the pull-down menu in the resulting window to select 
> "stack".

But that's not the same thing.  I'm talking about the hierarchical
browser that let you view an object's ivars, then click on its object's
ivars, etc, using a browser view.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: see@address.in.signature (Martiin-Gilles Lavoie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:46:53 -0500
Organization: Internet-Login
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In article , "Michael Makhlouf"
 wrote:

> :Weiyuan W Chin wrote:
> :> 
> :> It has occured to me that there isn't a rush by Mac developers
> :> to develop under the OPENSTEP API's. :> I just don't see the rush of
> newbie OPENSTEP programming
> :> questions that I had expected.  Maybe it's just that most Mac
> :> developers don't have access to a NeXT/Intel/SPARC to do OPENSTEP
> :> development yet.
> 
> I would be asking a lot of questions if I could run OPENSTEP on my Mac. I
> read parts of the Nextstep tutorial on the Web, but since I don't own an
> Intel and definitely can't afford the developer edition of OPENSTEP, I can't
> do any meaningful work. Although I am not a "real" developer (shareware
> only), I believe that my viewpoint applies to most Mac programmers. As long
> as there is nothing of OPENSTEP on the Mac, Mac developers will keep working
> on their current projects using system 7 API's. It very hard for us to
> believe that OPENSTEP programs would just need a recompile (or slight source
> code modification) to run under Rhapsody. I hope that when Rhapsody DR is
> released we will see a TON of questions. (make sure you check
> c.s.m.programmer.* though). 
> 
> Tony "waiting to do cool stuff with OPENSTEP on the Mac" Makhlouf

I'm one of those Mac developers with tons of questions to ask.

But before I swamp this newsgroup with silly newbie question, I've bought
myself a NeXT Station Color system to get aquainted with NeXTSTEP (3.3). 
I've also bought (and printed) documentation on OpenStep 4.x, and have
started playing with development tools.  I've had the system for a little
more than a month now and only last week have I discovered that I had the
entire Shakespear material in Librarian format.

When I'm through with exploration, I'll start doing some real experimental
work on it, and before too long, you'll see my name next to a Q topic in
this newsgroup.  ;-)

I've also followed this newsgroup closelly, as I try to find out the
"gotchas" we might find in OPENSTEP.  I think my case is like many Mac
programmers.  We attempt to find out as much as we can by ourselves before
asking silly questions.  (And beleive me, we do see many silly questions
on the mac dev newsgroups--how many times have I answered on "how to hide
menu bar?" is beyong me).

MGL

-- 
 Martin-Gilles Lavoie       |    "No!  Try not.  Do!  or do not
  mouser@zercom.net         |     There is no try."
www.zercom.net/~mouser/     |     --Yoda on error handling
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 97 12:14:38
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In-reply-to: ians@cam-ani.co.uk's message of Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:02:02 GMT

In article ,
	ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson) writes:
   In article ,
	maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes:
   > In article <01bc2c5d$20beff20$3a65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org>,
   >	"zarf"  wrote:
   > 
   > > * yet changeable to the Keith Ohlfs/NeXTSTEP style 
   >   Appearance Manager should handle all of this.

   This worries me...

   Everyone seems to think that the only thing that makes a UI are a
   few simple window arangements things, which can be handled by a
   global switch.

   IT AINT GONNA WORK!

   Sure you can do some basic things, like moving menus around, or
   changing the look of scroll bars, but this is going to break lots
   of apps, or make them behave oddly. For example terminal app (Ok
   not the best choice!) uses it's own scrolling text object, because
   the standard one doesn't handle continuous text very well (Or so
   Scott said IIRC). It won't (ok, might not) pick up the change if
   the scroll bars are moved to the other side.

I gotta agree with your thrust.  This is only partially a problem with
the concept of having "appearances", though.  It's also very much
involved with the "spirit" of the frameworks.  One of the bigger
problems I have with AppKit is that it's very take-it-or-leave-it.  If
your needs match what it provides, you're shipping code in a couple
hours.  If your needs are similar, but you need just this one little
additional thing, you either have to reverse-engineer and use
undocumented interfaces, or roll your own.

This is a pretty general problem.  It's already bitten NeXT with their
Japanese support.  If you're using Text or Text-based objects to
handle your I/O, great, no problem.  If you aren't, you're screwed,
because the magic you have to accomplish isn't well (at all)
documented.  This is beyond the problem of getting NS3.xJ.

The solution?  NeXT's frameworks need to evolve to a somewhat less
blackbox orientation.  For instance, ScrollView could have a variation
which allows for full control over the document view while letting the
scrollview do everything else it does so well.  ScrollView's
"automagic" handling of scrolling is great, _if_ it fits what you need
to do.  The default handling should remain, because the vast majority
of uses will work just fine with the automagic handling.  I'd just
like some sort of "expert" mode where you can get in and muck around
if needed.  Overall, something like how View printing works (where you
can leave it alone, or adjust margins and other layout, or even
control in a fine grained fashion exactly what fits on a given page.
Simple results are easy, more complicated results still fit within the
framework).

[BTW, there were two main problems with using Text as a terminal
emulator.  One was that Text is a mini word processing view.  Address
things by row/column?  Ha!  You were lucky if you could address things
by absolute character offset.  The other problem was that after all of
the reverse engineering and undocumented hacker, Text with row/column
addressing is _abysmally_ slow.  So now you have a fragile object
dependent on some other development group's arbitrary decisions that's
also slow in the bargain.  The same problems apply in many areas.
SoftPC obviously, but also any area where large amounts of text have
to be under the program's full control.  For instance, word processors
and spreadsheets and web browsers _can_ use Text, but it requires
some pretty extensive tradeoffs.]

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Platform independence, Java and Juice (Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?)
Date: 10 Mar 1997 21:15:03 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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Luc Dubois writes
> But... but... but... Hasn't Apple become what it is, *exactly because*
> it wasn't/isn't afraid of swimming against the tide? Now, Java as I see
> it is a nice first attempt at platform-independence. There currently
> *is* already a better technology available. It's called "Juice" and is
> based on the language Oberon (from the school of Niklaus Wirth).

[Note to other readers: you really ought to read up on Juice before  
reading any farther. See: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~juice/ ]

Juice is an interesting idea - too bad Java already has the limelight. Do  
you honestly think that *Oberon* is going to gain mindshare against Java?  
Outside of academic users, who's even heard of Modula 3 or Oberon? 

Actually, Java is a nice (third or fourth) attempt at platform  
independence. It's very similar in concept to the old UCSD p-code system  
(anybody else remember that one?). What I see looking over all the various  
cross-platform attempts over the years is a gradual improvement in the  
depth of support provided.

For instance, while it was possible to write useful applications in UCSD  
Pascal, they were never quite as full-featured as native apps. And the  
UCSD operating environment was very different than the native user  
interface on most of the systems it ran on.

Smalltalk was a bit better in that you could at least make nice GUI  
applications that didn't look totally alien (at least in modern Smalltalk  
variants). 

Java improves on this by providing a more comprehensive set of UI  
features, as well as a (nearly) transparent interface to the native UI.

One thing that still amuses me about these things is that these great  
cross-platform solutions aren't used *to implement themselves*. The UCSD  
p-code machine was coded in assembly for each platform. Smalltalk had many  
"primitive" operations and types. The Java VM is written in C, and the AWT  
(and others) use lots of "native methods"...

The cynic in me wants to shout "if your tool is so great, why don't you  
use it yourself?", but that's too easy. On the other hand, I don't see why  
it isn't possible to define a computer language that is:
	Expressive
	Well-defined
	Portable
	Rapidly compilable to high-performance machine code
In fact, the Java language meets nearly all those requirements. It's just  
this stupid byte-code nonsense that I don't like. I mean, what's the point  
of compiling your Java code into bytecodes, then loading it on the target,  
where it's recompiled into native code, after all the syntax cues have  
been removed? 

What I really want is a Java native-code compiler (or a Java to ObjC  
translator), so I can take advantage of local optimizations, while not  
losing the true advantages of Java, which relate more to reliability and  
security than platform independence. 

And I want a totally separate mechanism for downloading executable content  
off the Net. Something like the Juice idea, but either  
language-independent, or at least based on a language I like :-)

--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 11:58:16 -0000
Organization: I need to put my ORGANIZATION here.
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In article <332192A6.313D@online.disney.com>,
Joseph Panico   wrote:
>James M. Curran wrote:
>
>          But, only if you are willing to put up with widespread
>  ineffeciency.
>  I doubt most programming will.
>         Truth,
>         James
>
>I have to disagree. Java, without JIT, is probably an order of magnitude
>slower than ObjC. With a top of the line JIT, it's probably on par with
>ObjC. And yet, c++ programmers are abandoning c++ for Java at an
>astounding pace?
>Why is this?

The assumption (and, IMHO, it is a valid one) is that Java will not
remain an interpreted language for all time.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Java compilers producing *native*
executable code in the very near future.  So, you see, that would mean
that Java would be both portable, and fast enough.

JIT is nice, but for apps, download it once, compile it to native, and
use the binary on-site 'til the version number changes. . .

John S.
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From: jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 11:55:21 -0000
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In article ,
Scott Hess  wrote:
>In article <331f6ea2.1358032@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
>	apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) writes:
>   On Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:26:38 GMT,
>	JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
>
>_Now_ I'd have no problems porting to C++ from Objective-C.  The
>project has become very stable, and everything has been optimized
>pretty close to perfection.  But during development, Objective-C was
>essential, and we couldn't have done it with C++.  [I'll also grant
>Smalltalk could have done it with ease, and _perhaps_ Java.]

Yah, but why not use *both*?

Use C++ where fast OO is needed, use C for the stuff that has to run
quite literally as fast as possible, and use Objective C where speed
is of little or no importance (distributed objects and GUI work, for
instance. . .).

The nice thing about both C++ and Objective C, is that they can quite
easily be used in conjunction with C.

John S.
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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: changing control layers
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:26:33 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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I have a program whose interface was built in IB. I want to
add some controls that will obscure other controls some of 
the time while, at other times, be obscured by them. Is there
some way that I can change the front to back ordering of IB
controls from my Objective-C code?

I've consulted the online documentation for View, Control and
Matrix classes (the controls are button matrices) and I haven't
found any methods that allow me to directly change the front
to back order of the controls (as in Bring to Front or Send to
Back commands in IB). I've considered that the View hierarchy
might have something to do with the front to back ordering but
haven't found anything that says this explicitly.

-Jeff Dutky
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 21:21:52 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) wrote:
> I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Java compilers producing *native*
> executable code in the very near future.  So, you see, that would mean
> that Java would be both portable, and fast enough.

SuperCede already can--you can compile to bytecodes or to a .exe.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: biesingert@asme.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSReturnSign in Tutorial
Date: 10 Mar 1997 22:06:02 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Hi, just going through the Tutorial for OpenStep 4.0
but 'NSReturnSign' is missing under Images of the IB. 
This occurs in the CurrencyConverter tutorial.
Thanks for your help!

Thomas


---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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From: "Andrew McPherson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 10 Mar 97 23:31:13 GMT
Organization: Central Institute of Technology
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Luc Dubois  wrote in article
<1997022812133841029741@pool011-107.innet.be>...
> MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) writes:
>  
> > David Herren writes
> > > OPENSTEP is the abstracted API which runs on multiple OSs. OpenStep
is
> > > the operating system itself. Confusing, isn't it?
> > 
> > Apparently confusing enough for you to get that exactly wrong :-) 
> - OpenStep = the specification of an abstract API
> - OPENSTEP for Mach = an OS
> - OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT = the implementation of a framework
>            based on the specification of an abstract API

> This is still going to confuse the market (simple folks like current
> Macintosh users/developers, 

Mac developers aren't simple, you fool.
As a software engineer, I develop for the mac first, then I port it over to
windoze 95/NT, then to unix.
(Core code, stupid windoze trick code, then solid code.)
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From: "Andrew McPherson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 11 Mar 97 00:08:13 GMT
Organization: Central Institute of Technology
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <01bc2da8$028a3960$1f193b9c@A413-11.cit.ac.nz>
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Eric A. Dubiel  wrote in article
<331E55D6.71AB@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>...
> L. Todd Heberlein wrote:
> You've got to wish they'd provide this developer/alpha/beta versions for
> FREE to Educational users!!!!  But that'd make too much sense.

Try www.devtools.apple.com or www.devworld.apple.com to get some sample
source code for the Rhapsody component APIs.
You should be able to get most of the Rhapsody DR.
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From: "Andrew McPherson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: idle time in Workspace?
Date: 11 Mar 97 00:03:37 GMT
Organization: Central Institute of Technology
Lines: 12
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Nathan Urban  wrote in article
<5frq8t$n63@sps1.phys.vt.edu>...
> Is there any programmatic way to determine how long a user has been idle
> (i.e., no mouse or keyboard events) in the Workspace?  I can use the
> standard Unix trick for getting idle times, but it only works if they've
> got a terminal open.

You should try to use stdin with the clock, try to see if the buffer has
changed in a period of time.
I think that should work, BTW, I don't know unix well enough to know the
tricks, what is the trick?
(I'm a mac-based software engineer)
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Run NeXT on SOM?
Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 15:47:57 -0500
Organization: Atria Software
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In article , "Baskaran Subramaniam"
 wrote:

> This is not really true if you have DSOM support on your machine.

  True, but the NeXT object model does those sorts of tasks too.  The real
question is how to do object linking.  NeXT already has support for COM,
and while the current Win versions of COM are hardly awe inspiring, I'll
bet the solution on the NeXT isn't so annoying.

Maury
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From: seitzman@netcom.com (Brian H. Seitzman)
Subject: *** NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP EXPERTS NEEDED! ***
Message-ID: 
Organization: Optimum - San Francisco, CA
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We have a number of positions available for people who've done 
significant work on the NeXTSTEP and OpenStep platforms.  If you've got 1 
or more years of experience, Optimum can be of help in finding you your 
next career opportunity!

If you're interested in being considered for positions in engineering, 
administration or QA on the NeXTSTEP or OpenStep platforms, get in touch!
-- 

Best regards,

Brian H. Seitzman
Technical Recruiter, Optimum
Phone:	(415) 863-2700
Fax:	(415) 863-2777
E-mail:	seitzman@netcom.com
URL:	http://www.crl.com/~optimum

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 19:51:34 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article <5g297g$p46$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> SFW. Java's runtime is an order of magnitude more complex than ObjC's.

Really?  I'm not very familiar with Java's runtime.  Do you think you
could say a little about its complexity and differences from Obj-C's?
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Jason Wells 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:12:14 -0800
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Don Yacktman wrote:

  jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) wrote:
  > I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Java compilers producing
  *native*
  > executable code in the very near future.  So, you see, that would
  mean
  > that Java would be both portable, and fast enough.

  SuperCede already can--you can compile to bytecodes or to a .exe.

So can the Microsoft JVM. In fact, all you have to do to make a Java
class 'native' is to include the JVM with the bytecode distribution. In
this sense, it's at least as  'native' as a VB application, with it's
p-code and VBRUNxx.DLL.

But who cares? It executes the same way, regardless if the file ends in
.class or .exe.

Jason

  --
  Later,

  -Don Yacktman
  don@misckit.com
  My home page



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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Newbie Interface Builder Question
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:47:20 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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Petr Novak wrote:
> 
> After changing your header file and implementation , you can 'unparse'
> you header file back to Interface Builder and your instances will be
> updated.
> 
> In Nextstep is this option called 'Unparse', in Openstep 'Read File..'
> 
> Petr Novak


Actually, I think the option in NeXTstep is called 'Parse' rather
than 'Unparse.' Parse causes IB to read the indicated header file
and reform it's notion of what the file says. Unparse causes IB to
take what it thinks a certain class is and create a header file
that represents that notion.

If you make changes to class Foobar that was originally created
by IB and then ask IB to 'Unparse' Foobar IB will create the a
header file based on what it thinks Foobar is, overwriting all
the changes you just made. If instead you ask IB to 'Parse' the
file Foobar.h it will read that file and update it's notion of
the methods contained in the class Foobar with the methods you
have added to the file.

-Jeff Dutky
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 9 Mar 1997 22:33:03 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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"Michael Makhlouf"  wrote:
> I wonder what would Metrowerks think of this. 250 US$ is less
> than what Codewarrior costs. I wonder if Apple and metrowerks
> have made some secret deal in exchange for Metrowerks supporting
> Rhapsody. Although I sincerely hope, for my sake and Apple's,
> that the 250 $ developer program will include Developer tools,
> I am afraid that this won't be the case.I think they will include
> it with ETO (for around $1000). Of course this is just speculation.

Note that ETO doesn't cost $1000 these days.  For awhile there it
was up around $1200, but the current price is much more reasonable.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 9 Mar 1997 22:42:03 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
> shess@one.net (Scott Hess) wrote:
> > AFS was ported to NeXT _long_ ago, and it had ACLs (didn't it?).
> 
>   AFS?  Sorry, I'm not too sure what you refer to (Apple File
> Sharing? - it doesn't).  The point here is that it's not only
> possible, but done, the issue is to make one of these standard
> so we can rely on having these features as opposed to having lots
> of case code depending on what features we have or don't have.

AFS that Scott refers to was at one time known as the Andrew File
System, from Carniege-Mellon.  AFS was then taken up by a company
called Transarc, and Transarc was later bought by IBM.  AFS is
unrelated to Apple File Sharing (and in fact, there is no AFS client
for Macintosh, AFS is mostly implemented on Unix file systems).
Think of it as a grown-up replacement for NFS.

Now there is also DFS, which is meant to be the replacement for
AFS.  We'll see how that goes.  It does have some features AFS
does not have, but it also has higher resource requirements.

In any case, there was an AFS for NeXTSTEP on m68k hardware.  The
last release of AFS was for NeXTSTEP 3.2 -- and it's why eclipse
(my main NeXTstation) is still sitting at NeXTSTEP 3.2.  If I
upgrade NeXTSTEP, I lose AFS support.

When the announcement came out about Apple buying NeXT, I sent a
message to the AFS mailing list to see if they'd resurrect the
AFS support for NeXTSTEP (and get it working on other hardware
platforms, instead of just NS/m68k), but didn't get any response.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 9 Mar 1997 22:48:37 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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"zarf"  wrote:
> 
> Michael Makhlouf  wrote:
> > As long as there is nothing of OPENSTEP on the Mac [hardware],
> > Mac developers will keep working on their current projects
> > using system 7 API's. It very hard for us to believe that
> > OPENSTEP programs would just need a recompile (or slight source
> > code modification) to run under Rhapsody.

It's fairly likely that if you write to the OpenStep (4.x) API,
then what you have will work on Rhapsody with just a recompile.
I know that you'd be skeptical of this based on other packages
which have promised such things, but NeXTSTEP has been running
on multiple platforms for awhile now, and it really does do a
fairly good job at hiding hardware differences.  On the other
hand, for most people it wouldn't be a bad idea to wait for a
developer's release of Rhapsody.

However, it is key that you're writing to the OpenStep (4.x)
API's, and not the older API's that were in NeXTSTEP 3.x...

> > I hope that when Rhapsody DR is released we will see a TON of
> > questions. (make sure you check c.s.m.programmer.* though).
> > 
> > Tony "waiting to do cool stuff with OPENSTEP on the Mac" Makhlouf
> 
> Hyuk! There may be a ton of questions on c.s.M.p but to get
> answers you and me will have to go to c.s.N.p!! Duh.

I think Tony has a legitimate point, one that most of us NeXT
aficionados have been ignoring.  At one point should the cs.next
newsgroups just fold into cs.mac?  I don't think we've thought
that through yet.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 02:55:22 GMT
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On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:12:14 -0800, Jason Wells 
wrote:
>
>So can the Microsoft JVM. In fact, all you have to do to make a Java
>class 'native' is to include the JVM with the bytecode distribution. In
>this sense, it's at least as  'native' as a VB application, with it's
>p-code and VBRUNxx.DLL.
>

This is not what Asymetrix's product does. Packing the JVM in,
while kinda nice, does nothing for the speed problem. 

Supercede compiles to x86 native code. E.g. ain't no JVM 
in there, ain't no .class files that you can then bop on over 
to a mac. 

It's not as fast as some coders hope. Java, as a language, takes
some performance hits because of the amount of validation it
does on method invocations etcetera. 

But most people will still find it acceptable for almost every
application  (James "Truth"  Curran is, of course, free to disagree).


Cheers,

Andy
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 04:02:34 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.programmer Nathan Urban  wrote:
: > SFW. Java's runtime is an order of magnitude more complex than ObjC's.

: Really?  I'm not very familiar with Java's runtime.  Do you think you
: could say a little about its complexity and differences from Obj-C's?

By "runtime" I mean the virtual machine. Were you to run compiled Java, 
you'd still have to duplicate its services, which include some form of
garbage collection and late binding. Even with asynchronous GC, the
performance hit is not negligible.

It is, however, worth it, IMHO, for the level of services it provides.
If only it were loosely typed... :/

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 02:59:11 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
> Joseph Panico  wrote:
> > The biggest problem with business applications (short of olap
> > or modelling) is definitely not performance. The biggest issue
> > is manageability, specifically managing complexity.
> 
> 	I've rarely heard users complain that a program was tough
> for the programmers to maintain.   But nearly everyday I hear
> someone complaining that a program is "too damn slow".

One way to solve performance problems is to restructure your code.
However, if your code is unmanagable then you won't risk a major
restructuring.  So, you'll spend your time on optimizations at the
micro level, instead of the macro level.

It is rather silly to take a user's complaint as if it was an
accurate analysis of the problem at the actual program design level.
The user doesn't know *why* the program is slow they just know that
it is slow.  You're assuming that the only solution to that problem
is the solution you like.  That's fine, I guess, but it's certainly
not proof that your solution is the best one.

There is a strange sense of deja-vu I get from these kinds of
discussions.  Fifteen years ago it was assembler programmers vs
programmers using higher-level languages.  Assembler programmers
would always insist that their code would be faster, and yet now
it's true that very little is written in assembler.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 03:12:53 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
> Joseph Panico  wrote:
> > I have to disagree. Java, without JIT, is probably an order of
> > magnitude slower than ObjC. With a top of the line JIT, it's
> > probably on par with ObjC. And yet, c++ programmers are
> > abandoning c++ for Java at an astounding pace?
> > Why is this?
> 
> 	Mainly because it's Hot! & New! and it look good an a
> resume right now.  And actually few are "abandoning" C++ for
> Java.  Mostly they are just learning & experimenting with Java,
> while they continue to do their real work in C++.  And, recent
> surveys show that many people are finally realizing tha Java
> isn't the panacea it was hyped as, and putting it aside.  My
> prediction:  within two years, Java will be used strictly for
> simply web page applications.

Java is a language.  As a language, my own prediction is that two
years from now there will be more happening in Java than in pure
C++.  I should probably hedge that a bit, and say that there will
be more new things happening with "Java and other OO languages"
then there will be with C++.  While Java 1.0 wasn't all it was
billed to be, new versions of Java are filling in the most glaring
deficiencies.

Web applications use a virtual machine for running Java byte codes.
Some people have a weird notion that there is something about the
Java language which makes it impossible to compile Java into
hardware-native code.  It is odd that such confusion exists.  Now,
I agree that it is quite possible that the JVM will only be used
for web applets within two years, but that's not the same as saying
Java (as a language) will be limited to web applets.

[furthermore, it wouldn't be all that surprising to me if we find
that there is a better intermediate representation than the current
Java byte codes and JVM]

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 10 Mar 1997 03:35:07 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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stone@enetis.net (Kevin and Brian Stone) wrote:
> zarf (zarf@zarfism.com) wrote:
> : As a current Mac user I'm concerned that some of my fellow Mac
> : users/cry-babies could torpedo the availability of the NeXT HI
> : under Rhapsody. Though they are vocal, I know I'm not the only
> : Mac user who, though amazed ten years ago by the Mac look and
> : feel, now feels confined by its age and backwardness.
>                                   ^^^     ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Do you really?  Sad.  Seen Windows 95 lately?

Yes.  So what?

NeXTSTEP is not Windows95.  While Windows95 looks something like
NeXTSTEP (or at least more like it than Windows3.1 did), it is
certainly not the same thing.  If you are making assumptions
about the user-interface of NeXTSTEP based on experience with
Windows95, you're going to draw the wrong conclusions.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
e appropriately designed NIB files is
> required, no? I thought, they simply describe the layout/order
> of the menus, not their appearance and behaviour. In which case,
> someone would have to tinker with or over-ride the Openstep code
> that handles the menu appearance. I'm hoping for some technical
> details that would demonstrate that this is not undocumented or
> otherwise out of the reach of Next hackers.

Strictly speaking, NIB files do not store the layout and order of
menus, windows, etc.  They are much more general than that.  They
store instances of objects, any objects.  There is no need to change
the format of NIB files for what you want to do here.  (there are
other reasons it might be nice to change the NIB format, but the
current format can handle the difference in menus -- because there
isn't really any menu-specific knowledge in the current format).

The trick would be to write classes (objects) such that they can
change from a mac menu-format to a NeXTSTEP menu-format, based on
some user-level preference.  Given the areas where those menu
formats are the same, I imagine this could be done.  Once those
classes are written, they can be stored using the current NIB
format.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: r5622031@cc.ntu.edu.tw (r5)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign in Tutorial
Date: 11 Mar 1997 05:46:44 GMT
Organization: National Taiwan University
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biesingert@asme.org :
: Hi, just going through the Tutorial for OpenStep 4.0
: but 'NSReturnSign' is missing under Images of the IB. 
: This occurs in the CurrencyConverter tutorial.
: Thanks for your help!
: 
: Thomas
ya...I found the same problem..in 4.1

Maybe for the sake of portbility..(My guest is for NT)..
NeXT take it off...

                                                Liu in Taiwan,NTU


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From: aisbell@ix.netcom.com (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GDB Features In 4.X, As Versus MW?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 05:47:52 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban) wrote:
> In article <5g155k$17si@news.doit.wisc.edu>, 
giddings@whitewater.chem.wisc.edu wrote:
> 
> > In <5fv2d2$ssp@sps1.phys.vt.edu> Nathan Urban wrote:
> 
> > > In 4.1, you don't use Edit.app anymore for source browsing, GDB access
> > > is integrated into ProjectBuilder, and the stack browser appears to
> > > have vanished.  Instead, you select an object to print out in the
> 
> > It's there.  In the execution window, click the button that looks like a 
> > sprocket, then use the pull-down menu in the resulting window to select 
> > "stack".
> 
> But that's not the same thing.  I'm talking about the hierarchical
> browser that let you view an object's ivars, then click on its object's
> ivars, etc, using a browser view.

    It's not there :-(  Debugging has regressed under the new PB 
unfortunately.  If you value the hierarchical ivar browser as I did, let NeXT 
know by sending a suggestion to bug_next@next.com.
-- 
Art Isbell                      NeXT/MIME Mail: aisbell@ix.netcom.com
Trego Systems                              Voice/Fax: +1 408 335 2515
OPENSTEP/NT                               Voice Mail: +1 408 335 1154
   managed care solutions              US Mail: Felton, CA 95018-9442
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From:  ralph@ifr.luftfahrt.uni-stuttgart.de (Ralph Paul)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 10:39:48 GMT
Organization: Comp.Center (RUS), U of Stuttgart, FRG
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Garance A Drosehn  wrote:
> Java is a language.  As a language, my own prediction is that two
> years from now there will be more happening in Java than in pure
> C++.  I should probably hedge that a bit, and say that there will
> be more new things happening with "Java and other OO languages"
> then there will be with C++.  While Java 1.0 wasn't all it was
> billed to be, new versions of Java are filling in the most glaring
> deficiencies.
> 
> Web applications use a virtual machine for running Java byte codes.
> Some people have a weird notion that there is something about the
> Java language which makes it impossible to compile Java into
> hardware-native code.  It is odd that such confusion exists.  Now,
> I agree that it is quite possible that the JVM will only be used
> for web applets within two years, but that's not the same as saying
> Java (as a language) will be limited to web applets.
> 
> [furthermore, it wouldn't be all that surprising to me if we find
> that there is a better intermediate representation than the current
> Java byte codes and JVM]

Just to add my $0.02 :
Intermetrics has been selling an Ada95 compiler which generates 
either native or JVM code ( with a few limitations). I think goes
to show that you need to differentiate between Java as a language,
the JVM as an execution environnement and all of those jumping
coffee beans applets.  I am expecting that within this year, software
companies will start to sell so called binary packagers/installer. 
These packagers will be used to package up Java applications (Corel Office) 
and to compile (not just JIT) them to native code. The result should 
be just as fast as C++, if not faster.

Ralph Paul

	ralph@ifr.luftfahrt.uni-stuttgart.de
 

 
compile the Byte code to native code
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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Platform independence, Java and Juice (Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:08:15 +0100
Organization: Syndetics Research
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Mark Bessey  wrote:

> Luc Dubois writes
> > But... but... but... Hasn't Apple become what it is, *exactly because*
> > it wasn't/isn't afraid of swimming against the tide? Now, Java as I see
> > it is a nice first attempt at platform-independence. There currently
> > *is* already a better technology available. It's called "Juice" and is
> > based on the language Oberon (from the school of Niklaus Wirth).
> 
> [Note to other readers: you really ought to read up on Juice before  
> reading any farther. See: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~juice/ ]
> 
> Juice is an interesting idea - too bad Java already has the limelight. Do
> you honestly think that *Oberon* is going to gain mindshare against Java?
> Outside of academic users, who's even heard of Modula 3 or Oberon? 

Well, you struck a very sensitive chord there, Mark. Who indeed? On the
other hand, who had heard of Java 2 years ago? We've come to realize
that no product or technology is going to make it on its technical
merits alone. It's Sun's perfectly orchestrated campaign that put Java
in the limelight. The timing was perfect, anything that had the label
"something to do with the Internet" was bound to get - deserved or
undeserved - attention of the media. 

Could a company like Apple repeat that with a competing technology? I
don't know. It depends on how determined they are, I suppose.
Unfortunately Apple doesn't exactly have a reputation of sticking to
their technologies or actively promoting them. Witness the fate of the
CTB, PowerTalk, Publish-and-Subscribe, Dylan, QuickDraw/GX and now maybe
even OpenDoc (if rumours are to be believed). Even AppleScript isn't
promoted as it should/could have been. Mindshare isn't something that
just comes your way. It requires a sustained effort, a department
Microsoft seems to handle extremely well...

Note that Juice is just the "secure and safe" implementation (subset) of
a much more powerful dynamic environment. Oberon has a few more merits
than just being cross-platform and extremely resource-economic. It
offers an OpenDoc-like anti-bloatware component architecture as well.
 
> One thing that still amuses me about these things is that these great
> cross-platform solutions aren't used *to implement themselves*. The UCSD
> p-code machine was coded in assembly for each platform. Smalltalk had many
> "primitive" operations and types. The Java VM is written in C, and the AWT
> (and others) use lots of "native methods"...
> 
> The cynic in me wants to shout "if your tool is so great, why don't you
> use it yourself?", but that's too easy. On the other hand, I don't see why
> it isn't possible to define a computer language that is:
>       Expressive
>       Well-defined
>       Portable
>       Rapidly compilable to high-performance machine code
> In fact, the Java language meets nearly all those requirements. It's just
> this stupid byte-code nonsense that I don't like. I mean, what's the point
> of compiling your Java code into bytecodes, then loading it on the target,
> where it's recompiled into native code, after all the syntax cues have
> been removed?

I'm glad your brought this up. On my Macintosh, I have a 750-lines
C-coded stub that initialises the runtime environment needed for Oberon
and basically links some primitive routines and a few Toolbox functions
to the Oberon layer above. That's it. The rest of the system, memory
management, task dispatching, garbage collection, dynymic loader
(collectively known as the "inner kernel", sort of Oberon VM), file
system, graphics subsystem, font management, GUI framework and the
compiler itself are all written in Oberon. 


The compiler generates either native object modules or platform
independent "slim binaries". Slim binaries are less than half the size
of equivalent byte-coded modules and more than 3 times smaller than
native PPC601 machine coded modules. There is a nice recent paper from
Michael Franz (who graduated under Niklaus Wirth) on the subject of
"Adaptive Compression of Syntax Trees and Iterative Dynamic Code
Optimization". You can probably find it from the best Oberon starting
page there is: . Look for
"MobileObjects-ics-tr-97-04.ps" in the "papers" section. Or else go to
the "recent news" section, where I think I found it.


The point is: Oberon *is* implemented in itself.

Cheers,
 
Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Platform independence, Java and Juice (Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?)
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:08:25 +0100
Organization: Syndetics Research
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Nathan Urban  wrote:
> In article <5g1tkn$o21@news.next.com>, mark_bessey@next.com wrote:
> > What I really want is a Java native-code compiler (or a Java to ObjC
> > translator), so I can take advantage of local optimizations, while not
> > losing the true advantages of Java, which relate more to reliability and
> > security than platform independence. 
> 
> I'd love to see a Java to Obj-C translator..  but I'd rather see an
> Obj-C to Juice compiler.  Or at the very least, a Java to Juice
> compiler.  Then you can use the separate Juice-to-native compiler either
> at runtime to obtain platform independence, or keep it native.

Note that the platform-independent format of Oberon, and hence Juice, is
called "Slim Binary" (now a trademark of the UC, I think), based on the
underlying technology of "Semantic Dictionary Encoding". I noticed that
Michael Franz (the author of Juice and SDE) more recently calls this
"Adaptive Compression of Syntax Trees". He is driving this further to
Iterative Code Optimization (see the paper I mentioned in the follow-up
to Mark Bessey's posting).

SDE works because of the strong typing in Oberon. I know of at least one
effort at the ETHZ (home of N. Wirth and M. Franz) to do the same thing
for Java. I don't know enough about Objective C to speculate if the same
is possible for that language. There is however some research stuff at
 to achieve something similar for C, so I
suppose we haven't seen the last of the miracles yet . 

Some background: 
Oberon was designed and developed by Niklaus Wirth and Jurg Gutknecht,
both professors at ETH in Zurich. N. Wirth, of course is known for
Pascal, Modula-2, Ceres and Lilith workstations, and a strong advocate
of Einstein's "Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler than that".
From their book "Project Oberon, The Design of an Operating System and
Compiler", I like to quote: "We should merely like to draw the reader's
attention to the correlation between a system's size and its
reliability", and "Also, we do not consider it good engineering practice
to consume a resource lavishly just because it happens to be cheap".

Michael Franz was a graduate student under Wirth and developed SDE/Slim
Binaries in the context of his doctoral thesis while at ETHZ (1994 I
think). He's now at the UC Irvine, where he developed Juice plug-ins for
Navigator (Mac and Windows). Michael Franz has also outlined a new
programming language called Lagoona, based on the original Oberon
language, which implements the equivalent of protocols in Objective C,
or interfaces in Java. He calls the construct "Categories" (not to be
confused with Objective C categories). He's planning on having his
students use that language after this summer. You'll find a paper on
Lagoona also off Guy Laden's excellent Oberon home page at
.

Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:08:32 +0100
Organization: Syndetics Research
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Andrew McPherson  wrote:
> Luc Dubois  wrote:
> > - OpenStep = the specification of an abstract API
> > - OPENSTEP for Mach = an OS
> > - OPENSTEP Enterprise for Windows NT = the implementation of a framework
> >            based on the specification of an abstract API
> 
> > This is still going to confuse the market (simple folks like current
> > Macintosh users/developers, 
> 
> Mac developers aren't simple, you fool.
> As a software engineer, I develop for the mac first, then I port it over to
> windoze 95/NT, then to unix.
> (Core code, stupid windoze trick code, then solid code.)

Charming. Thanks for the warm and carefully chosen words. 
As a Macintosh-only programmer I develop for the *users* first, but
that's another discussion. I probably shouldn't have put Macintosh
users/developers on the same heap as Fortune Magazine editors, Wall
Street Journal reporters, and financial "analists", but the point was
that Apple should remove the confusion of similar names for different
products.

Simple,

Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: Ulf Olsson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 12:52:39 GMT
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In article <5fofl6$pis@news.next.com> Mark Bessey, MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM
writes:

>Luc Dubois writes
>> "OPENSTEP is either".
>> 
>> This is a real problem and is exactly what I was saying and which
>> i.m.h.o. is confusing. OPENSTEP for Mach *is* the OS, while OPENSTEP for
>> Windows NT is a framework (delivered in the form of libaries and a set
>> of APIs) on top of an "host" OS (or should that be a "client" OS ;-)).

>I fully expect that this will be much less confusing in the new world. The  
>OPENSTEP for NT product and the Rhapsody OS will have different names, I  
>bet.

>> If Apple can continue this (keeping the lib and api in sync with the 
>> real OPENSTEP OS) and maybe (hopefully) porting it to every other OS in 
>> the world, Apple developers gain an enormous competitive advantage. I am
>> really excited about this! We could deploy all our software on all
>> platforms, just by using the new Apple development environment. If that
>> doesn't leverage more sales of Apple computers as the preferred
>> development solution, I don't know what will. I don't even dare to
>> imagine how this could evolve over time, when most computers out there
>> will be equipped with this OPENSTEPLIB...! Can you?

>Hey, that's why I'm (still) here. NeXT had some truly great, world-beating  
>technology (Objective-C, PDO, EOF, for instance), but they never really  
>got the word out. Just the thought of what thousands of creative Mac  
>developers will come up with is mind boggling...

>> Now, if only Apple would turn this ugly ULTRA-FAT-Binary technology into
>> "Slim-Binaries" by utilising Semantic Dictionary Encoding, they could at
>> the same time and in one fell swoop pull control over the internet from
>> under Microsoft as well (OK, Microsoft doesn't yet control the Internet,
>> but they have every intention of trying to get it).

>That's an interesting idea, but we'd be swimming against the tide. How  
>about this: If we have the OpenStep library on a large % of desktops, and  
>an OpenStep-to-Java interface, we can leverage the platform-independence  
>of Java with our kick-butt native-code class library...

I have been developing for the Mac for some time (started on Lisa in -84) 
and have been reading this news-group a while now, since about 20
December 96. :-)
Nowadays I mostly do Unix (Sun) and NT & 3.1 Windows, even if I just
started doing a
project (in spare time) on complexity and A-life on the Mac. 

My class libraries experiences are MacApp, OWL, MFC, libg++, database
libraries
and network libraries for TCP/IP, RPC, Sockets, DDE/OLE and serial
communications.

In the above-mentioned project I saw the possibility of writing the UI
code in 
Java and then writing algorithms in C++ using STL (depending on
portability) or
just ANSI C. The target machines was Macs, NT's, SGI's and Sun's.

I started with IFC since it seemed to be (on the surface) a nice class
library
and felt comprehensible, and I downloaded the Constructor to my Mac to do
the
interface. After a few tries I went back to native Java+AWK and wrote
test examples
to look at speed issues for updating the screen and doing algorithms. 3D
libraries
was also tested.

Execution speed of Java was not impressive (Java SDK 1.02) so Java was
put on
ice until SDK 1.1 arrives with the standardized native interface and a
JIT 
available on all platforms.

I took out my Metrowerks CD, unpacked MacApp (Release 12) , and started
doing 
the interface and algorithms. Adlib, GWorld, Palette and classes in C++.
Easy and simple.

Until I have to port it to NT ...  (MFC & Windows API - just work)
and Unix ... (X Forms & X - more work)

A few questions, observations and opinions:

1)	If Rhapsody 2.0 was ready (in 1999? :-) ) could you then 
	a) Do the UI in IB on the Mac.
	b) Do non-critical stuff in Java class libraries (or Obj-C with Java
Interfaces)
	c) write algorithms in C++ and STL, or ANSI C.
	d) move the code to Sun's and SGI for a recompile and run.
	e) move the code to NT for a similar recompile and run.
	f) put the code on a homepage for Netscape 7.0 to run it.

2)	Will there be a standardized 3D library? (OpenGL, QuickDraw 3D,
Renderman etc.)

3)	The developers will be geared towards content and less tools-oriented,
which
	implies higher abstraction levels and higher productivity, but also a
higher
	complexity for the developer. This means more OO libraries, less 4 GL
tools and
	a higher education level.

Rhapsody strategy
-----------------
Using Porter's book Competetive Strategy you have the following forces
driving competition
	
	Potential Entrants
	Substitutes
	Suppliers
	Buyers

and to handle these forces you can have different strategies
	
	High Specialization + High Assembler
	------------------------------------
	high price + high technology + high quality : "Old" Next
	
	Medium Specialization + Medium Assembler
	----------------------------------------
	high service + low quality + low price : Microsoft
	
	Full Line + High Integration
	------------------------------
	Low manufactoring costs + Low service + moderate quality : "Old" Apple

	Narrow Line + High Integration
	------------------------------
	Low price + Low service : Netscape

In innovation terms:

	Run faster -> Innovate quicker and better : Netscape + "new" Apple/Next

"New" Apple have to choose one of the different strategies available,
preferably
the correct one ... :-). Porter warns of the symptom of switching back
and forth between
different strategies during a crisis, or not being aware of your position
in the industry.

If Apple goes the "Old" Next way the price for developers might become
too high and not create
a market. If it is too low money is lost. 

I bought (did not everyone ?) a evaluation copy of NextStep for PC (3.2 I
think), but that
version could not load on my PCI PC. I got it working around New Year by
downloading a lot
of new drivers and stuff. Took a while.

The price was around $300. That is half of what I pay today for being a
MS developer and
about parity with the cost as a Mac Developer (Associate Plus). I then
have to
buy compilers for NT, which is about $500 (subscription), and Mac, which
is about $300.

Unix is free - but a lot of work to update gnu compilers and tcl/tk.

So the money I spend every year is minimum $600 + $300 + $500 + $300 =
$1700 and if
I remember correctly it is double that amount in reality.

Since a Rhapsody developer only needs one OS and one development
environment (does anyone
believe this ? :-) ) the "market value" seems to be around $850 for a OS
with a superior
development environment and high quality delivery on multiple platforms
with yearly updates.
A one-shot price would then be around $300 ($50 OS and $250
dev.environment).

Say you get 30,000 developers buying into this. This would mean 25,5
million dollars in
potential income/year. Compare that to what Metrowerks makes : 4 * 4.7
million = 18.8 million.

So you licence the development environment to Metrowerks for them to sell
and help
enhancing (If you do not think this is part of "New" Apple core business)

Metrowerks could then extend this business into the Intel world, and
increase the 
market by a factor 10 and lower the price. This could be 

To stop ranting here is a guess

	Rhapsody to user:  $79-$99
	Rhapsody + development environment to developer:  $300 (one shot) or
$850 (year)


Sorry for being so long-worded here, but I got carried away ...


Ulf Olsson

--- Expressing the only opinion I have: my own ---
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: idle time in Workspace?
Date: Sat,  8 Mar 1997 20:32:17 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 8-Mar-97 idle time in
Workspace? by Nathan Urban@sps1.phys.v 
> Is there any programmatic way to determine how long a user has been idle
> (i.e., no mouse or keyboard events) in the Workspace?  I can use the
> standard Unix trick for getting idle times, but it only works if they've
> got a terminal open.

Try looking into the EVS driver, which delivers user events to the
Window Server.  The source for Backspace provides an example of how to
use it.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Alexander Lamb 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More OpenStep Questions
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:20:51 -0500
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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Edward K. Ream wrote:
> 
> Hello again,
> 
> Now that we are all up to speed on the difference between
> OPENSTEP and OpenStep :-) I'd like to ask the questions
> that I _really_ meant to ask!
> 
> 1.  Are the Foundation Toolkit and App Toolkit an integral
> part of the Next OS?  That is, are they part of the "official"
> API's of the OS?  Or are they simply libraries supplied
> by compiler vendors?  Or maybe something in between?
> 
> Comment:  I'm trying to understand what, exactly,
> the Mac "Yellow Box" will contain.
> 

Foundation and Appkit are part of OpenStep. This means it is "above" the
NeXT OS. Those libraries (or call them Frameworks to be more precise)
are (oups were) supplied by NeXT as part of the system since most of the
application running on the NeXT system are developped using them. A few
years ago, the development tools were unbundled from the basic system,
and therefore, although you could run OpenStep apps with no additional
libraries, in order to develop you needed the development environment
(which supplied the compiler, interface builder, project builder and the
interfaces to the various frameworks, etc...). All this is true for
OpenStep on MachOS *TODAY*. On Windows NT, the same applies but you need
to purchase an OpenStep runtime (which may be bundled with the app a
vendor is developing, depending upon some licensing agreement with
NeXT).
All the above implies only software from NeXT.
Now, for Rhapsody, well I don't know ! Simply listening to what Avie
said publicly, it would make sense to think that the developer release
will be very close to what OpenStep for MachOS is today (since NeXT is
encouraging you to start looking into the Intel version, while waiting
for the Rhapsody developer release).
Of course, some ISV are supplying some additional frameworks, libraries,
if needed for some specific developments. Additionally, most of the
OpenStep applications have an API which allows additional customization.

> 2.  Are Objective-C objects an integral part of the Next OS?
> That is, do the OS API's imply a specific structure for objects
> (for instance, the isa pointer)?  If so, then
> a) do all C++ compilers ultimately produce objective C calls?
> b) is there a public ABI (app binary interface) that describes
> this interface?
> 
> Comment:  I'm trying to understand what the fundamental
> performance characteristics of the Yellow Box will be.
> 
Well, down in the MachOS layer, meaning the operating system itself, we
are speaking about C function call for obvious performance reasons
(although some pieces may have been written in C++ or Objective-C, I
didn't have a close look because the OpenStep layer helps you avoiding
getting to deep into the OS :-)

Now, when you speak about "all C++ compilers"... which ones ? there are
only two Objective-C++ available on OpenStep systems : the one from NeXT
and the GNU. They are both fairly similar since the one from NeXT is
derived from GNU (now don't ask me about versions and small
differences... I don't know, again, with the OpenStep layer, you can
avoid going to deep into the compiler issues :-)
The two compilers can compile C code, Objective-C code or C++ code, or a
mix of the three.

Therefore the answer to "a" is NO
"b" seems void then...

> 3.  Is it possible to call objective-c methods from C code?
> Is this the purpose of objc_sendm?   If it is possible,
> how easy is it for the C code to use the results?
> (The objective-C headers will not, e.g., contain an explicit
> reference to the isa pointer, so how could C code use
> those headers?)
> 
> Comment 1:  I'm trying to understand the process of porting C code
> (or C++ code) to an objective-C world.  If we are stuck with
> only calls _from_ objective-C to C, then porting code would
> probably involve using an (old) C layer below a new objective-C layer,
> and the C layer could _not_ call code in the higher layer.
> 

Yes it is possible but : in order for this to work, you must be running
the Objective-C runtime, therefore actually compiling Objective-C code.
Usually you use function calls to call directly an Objective-C method in
order to optimize speed in a loop for example.
The way to do this would normally be the other way round. You write a
small Objective-C "wrapper" program which will call you C functions (or
even you C++ classes). This will allow you to port existing code without
to much pain and at the same time you benefit from the OpenStep even
model and UI classes. Calling back an Objective-C method from a C
portion of your code is no problem since, being in the Objective-C
runtime world, you can pass an object pointer to a C function and then
simply message it from within you function.But if you wish, you can also
port a straight C program without even calling Objective-C at all (if
you are writing some non-UI processes for example). All the standart C
libraries are available as well as the standart Unix calls to read and
write from files.

Hope this helps,

Alexander Lamb
Apple Computer Inc, (formerly NeXT software)

standart disclaimer...

> Comment 2: This kind of port could be very significant in merging
> Mac OS 7.x and Copeland code into the Next OS code.
> 
> Cheers,
> Edward
> Edward
> 
> --
> Edward K. Ream
> (608) 231-0766
> edream@mailbag.com
> Owner, Sherlock Software
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From: Aki M Laukkanen 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: MAB specifications
Date: 11 Mar 1997 15:36:32 GMT
Organization: University of Helsinki
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Hello,
	Would someone be so kind that he could send me the includes from
the subdirectory "mach-o"? I have no access to a NeXTStep box but I
still need the MAB (multi architecture binary) specifications, thanks.

-- 
D.
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: need help w/ DPSDoUserPath and user paths
Date: 11 Mar 1997 15:48:41 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins
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See /NextDeveloper/examples/AppKit/Lines/UserPath.m

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 04:42:57 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
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In <>, 
webboy@webname.com (David) wrote:

>In article <5fcnhe$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
>(James M. Curran) wrote:


>>
>>        Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
>>used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
>>Win95 upon first seeing it.

>This is complete un-truth James, and you know it. The studies Apple touts
>are of cross-platform users. Quit making things up.


	OK, I phrased that poorly.  "Apple, on the other hand, has studies
that show that people who have used a Mac for years, and have just
recently been given a Win95 machine, feel that they are more
productive on the machine that they are more familiar with"
       Truth,
       James

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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Marking Text in the ProjectEditor
Date: 11 Mar 1997 16:02:41 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I'm very new to OpenStep-Programming.
I just finished my first demo-project and
was wondering, if I really have to use
the mouse to select some text in the
ProjectEditor for being moved or deleted.
Under OS/2 I used ALT-B to mark the
beginning and the end of a block.
What's the key-sequence here. I found
a paper named "Emacs Key Bindings" in the
online-Docu, but ther's nothing written
about marking text with the keyboard.
Do I have to use another Editor?
Wich one, and where do I get it?
Thanks in advance.

Andreas
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 04:42:53 GMT
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In <>, 
Stephen Peters  wrote:

>To be honest, even without the proof, I'd find it hard to dispute as
>written above.  People who have used a Mac for years are more
>comfortable using Macs than if you throw them into a new environment.
>That's a far from surprising result, similar to any claim that people
>who've been using Win95 since its release are more productive on Win95
>than they are on the Mac when first thrown into it.

	Well, it's nice to see someone who can look at what Apple says, and
draw a reasonable conclusion.  Apparently Phil Brewester won't be
satified unless I show him stole secret documents....

>Do you honestly think that people who have used one system for years
>won't be more productive on that system than if you suddenly throw
>them onto something else?

	But the really important part is that they aren't even trying to show
on which system people are more productive.  On Apple's last study
(The Evans Report, which I've discussed elsewhere on the newsgroup),
they only *asked* people which they *thought* made them more
productive.   And the other questions they asked were even more
subjective ("On which system are you more creative?"  Can you think of
a better way of subtle asking, "Which system are you more familiar
with?")

	I'm sure Microsoft rigs it studies as well, but at least they are more
open about acknowledging that they commisioned the study, and actual
time how long it takes people to do things with the systems...




       Truth,
       James

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From: Jason Wells 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:23:50 -0800
Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc.
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John Jensen wrote:

  Regarding the cost of the developer program, which will recive the
  Rhapsody beta, Andy Griffin  wrote:
  : It seems to me that the Apple Developer's Associates Program costs

  : US$250/year. I don't know what your resource situation is like but
  is
  : sounds reasonable to me.

  I don't know, you might be right, but I've always thought it was a
  mistake
  for OS vendors to treat devleopment tools as a profit center.  I'm
  sure
  there is a component to develper tools that are "extra" and should
  be
  charged for, but I think there is also a component that is pure
  marketing.

  As an example, I spent last night getting FileReader objects working
  using
  the (free) JDK1.1 from Sun on Win95.  (So I'm already developing
  Rhapsody
  code.)  Where would Java be without the free JDK?

No kidding. Java would be nowhere. I certainly wouldn't have paid money
for a new, untried language and environment. Sun has the smarts.

  If Rhapsody goes to developers at $250 (plus paperwork), only
  committed
  developers will buy it.  If Apple can build Rhapsody as a platform
  with
  that core group, great.

  If Rhapsody were to go to developers at some "impulse purchase"
  price, you
  would get more applications written and build a better buzz for the
  final
  release.

  When I think about it, treating developers as a profit center _now_
  would
  be the _final_ stupidity.  Nothing exists in a vacuum, to win Apple
  has to
  first pull developers and then pull users from other platforms.

  John

What Apple oughta do is package an OpenStep Developers Kit (ODK), with
just a minimalist implementation (as in, no IDE, command line compilers,
etc.) but missing no core features, and leave it on their web site as a
free download for users of NextStep (user edition) and Windows. They
should mirror Sun's approach to JDK exactly. If they were doing this,
I'd be writing code for Rhapsody today. Then later, when the really nice
polished tools are ready, I'd be in a position to buy them.

Jason

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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:08:32 GMT
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On 11 Mar 1997 10:39:48 GMT,  ralph@ifr.luftfahrt.uni-stuttgart.de
(Ralph Paul) wrote:
>
>... I am expecting that within this year, software
>companies will start to sell so called binary packagers/installer. 
>These packagers will be used to package up Java applications (Corel Office) 
>and to compile (not just JIT) them to native code. The result should 
>be just as fast as C++, if not faster.
>

No, they should be faster than using a JVM. But in the 
common metrics of faster (implement the same algorithm and time
it), compiled Java should still be a fair stick slower than C++.


Cheers,

Andy
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: changing control layers
Date: 11 Mar 1997 18:55:26 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins
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Position in the subviews list determines layering.  The last view in the list 
is on top of all others.

Layering controls the way you describe is full of human factors problems. 
(not a good idea)
Consider a mode/selection sensitive inspector panel instead.  See 
MiscSwapView (I think that is what it is called)

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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Mar 97 11:33:30
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	<331f6ea2.1358032@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
	
	<5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>
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In-reply-to: jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov's message of 10 Mar 1997 11:55:21 -0000
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In article <5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>,
	jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) writes:
   In article ,
	Scott Hess  wrote:
   >In article <331f6ea2.1358032@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
   >	apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) writes:
   >   On Sun, 02 Mar 1997 20:26:38 GMT,
   >	JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
   >
   >_Now_ I'd have no problems porting to C++ from Objective-C.  The
   >project has become very stable, and everything has been optimized
   >pretty close to perfection.  But during development, Objective-C
   >was essential, and we couldn't have done it with C++.  [I'll also
   >grant Smalltalk could have done it with ease, and _perhaps_ Java.]

   Yah, but why not use *both*?

Too much investment in tools would be required.  We've already been
through the shredder once just to get versions of Objective-C right
for other platforms.  Objective-C++ is essentially a NeXT thing right
now, and though it might eventually work right under gcc, and perhaps
Metrowerks, we needed it _now_.  [Actually, a year or two ago, but
who's counting.]

   Use C++ where fast OO is needed, use C for the stuff that has to
   run quite literally as fast as possible, and use Objective C where
   speed is of little or no importance (distributed objects and GUI
   work, for instance. . .).

Success isn't that precise - there are few projects where success
hinges on the incremental performance improvement of C++ over
Objective-C for a given object hierarchy.  Not when you can achieve
better improvement by spending another $100 on your CPU.

OTOH, success _does_ hinge on the ability of your architecture to
adapt.  Mixing C++ and Objective-C makes good sense if you're
integrating modules from different sources, but for a system which you
started afresh on, it's just asking for trouble.  The gain of coding
segments in C++ is likely to be overwhelmed by the loss due to having
to wrap your mind around a system that's potentially significantly
more complex.  It's bad enough initiating a new developer into a
system using _one_ language ...

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: sanguish@digifix.digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 11 Mar 1997 20:24:41 GMT
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On 03/09/97, Garance A Drosehn wrote:


>I think Tony has a legitimate point, one that most of us NeXT
>aficionados have been ignoring.  At one point should the cs.next
>newsgroups just fold into cs.mac?  I don't think we've thought
>that through yet.

	Probably never.  Fact is that OpenStep for Intel will still be 
a product, and doesn't fit into the mac hierarchy very well.

	I can see some potential overlaps with a 
comp.sys.mac.programmer.rhapsody (or openstep) and this group though..  
But I don't think its enough to amalgamate.




-- 
Scott Anguish               DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS
sanguish@digifix.com        Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com

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From: teb@eng.cam.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: missing NSReturnSig
Date: 11 Mar 1997 20:07:23 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Hi, just going through the Tutorial for OpenStep 4.0
but 'NSReturnSign' is missing under Images of the IB.
This occurs in the CurrencyConverter tutorial.
Thanks for your help and suggestions!

Thomas


---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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From: 100527.1356@compuserve.com (Konstantin Welissariou)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: US company is seeking
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:01:51 GMT
Organization: Five Continents
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American Information Technology Company  providing a wide range of IT
support, software development, systems integration, reengineering,
network technology, and data warehousing is seeking  qualified
personnel in Europe or elsewhere.

We have immediate need for programmers and analysts in one or more of
the following 
with 1 plus years experience:

1) Main frame:

CICS, DB2, COBOL II, IMS, DB/DC, Microfocus COBOL, SP2

2) AS/400:

RPG/400, COBOL/400, SYNON/2e

3) Client Server Environment:

Powerbuilder, OOA/OOD, ORACLE DBA, ORACLE Forms, C/C++, Visual C++.
UNIX, SQL
Windows, SQL*Forms, Open interfaces, SYBASE, SAP R2/R3, Lotus Notes
Development, CASE TOOLS.

4) LAN/WAN administers

5) Basic assemblers

Furthermore, we are looking for the following qualified people :

1.  C, SYBASE, UNIX with 2 year experience.

2.  UNIX, C++

3.  ORACLE, PL/SQL and PRO*C is a plus. 

4.  URGENTLY  qualified people with  Delphi experience with excellent
English communication skills.  
     Location is Chicago, Illinois.	

We  would be able to obtain immigration/work permits for qualified
people in order to enable them to work in U. S. For confidential
consideration, please e-mail your resume as WORD document if possible,
your  time of availability, your salary expectations, phone number and
if possible fax.  

Interested parties  are welcome to  reply to the address
fiveconti@aol.com. 


Best Regards


Konstantin Welissariou     


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From: kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 11 Mar 1997 21:25:35 GMT
Organization: The University of California at San Diego
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On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:23:50 -0800, Jason Wells  wrote:
:John Jensen wrote:
:
:  Regarding the cost of the developer program, which will recive the
:  Rhapsody beta, Andy Griffin  wrote:
:  : It seems to me that the Apple Developer's Associates Program costs
:
:  : US$250/year. I don't know what your resource situation is like but
:  is
:  : sounds reasonable to me.
:
:  I don't know, you might be right, but I've always thought it was a
:  mistake
:  for OS vendors to treat devleopment tools as a profit center.  I'm
:  sure
:  there is a component to develper tools that are "extra" and should
:  be
:  charged for, but I think there is also a component that is pure
:  marketing.
:
:  As an example, I spent last night getting FileReader objects working
:  using
:  the (free) JDK1.1 from Sun on Win95.  (So I'm already developing
:  Rhapsody
:  code.)  Where would Java be without the free JDK?
:
:No kidding. Java would be nowhere. I certainly wouldn't have paid money
:for a new, untried language and environment. Sun has the smarts.

Well only if they've had the snot beaten out of them.  If I remember
the rumours correctly, a large proportion of the original Java team,
including Dr. Gosling, threatened to resign en masse if Sun didn't put their
work out for free. It was a struggle, even with having a founder of Sun
(Joy) on their side.  {Sort of funny that the nerds know how to market
better than the people who are supposed to know about the market.} 

There's no doubt that the Web (esp Java) has saved Sun's ass.  I'm sure
the bean counters are looking for that line in their revenues saying
("Java income") and barely finding it, not realizing of course that that the
really big line called "Hardware revenue" would have been 1/3 smaller and
Microsoft + Compaq's bigger by the corresponding amount. 

:  When I think about it, treating developers as a profit center _now_
:  would
:  be the _final_ stupidity.  Nothing exists in a vacuum, to win Apple
:  has to
:  first pull developers and then pull users from other platforms.
:
:  John

How about this?  Monotarget (Rhapsody for PPC) development kit at
a trivial cost. 

:What Apple oughta do is package an OpenStep Developers Kit (ODK), with
:just a minimalist implementation (as in, no IDE, command line compilers,
:etc.) but missing no core features, and leave it on their web site as a
:free download for users of NextStep (user edition) and Windows. They
:should mirror Sun's approach to JDK exactly. If they were doing this,
:I'd be writing code for Rhapsody today. Then later, when the really nice
:polished tools are ready, I'd be in a position to buy them.

But the polished tools really are ready.  I think there's an essential
distinction between the markets:  with JDK there was *no other way* to
write applets which worked in a web browser, which was a strongly
compelling need.  With Openstep, there already is serious competition for
writing 'ordinary desktop programs', called all the Windows development
tools.  There is not such a burning desire for 'anything which runs on
Openstep', as there was for 'anything which runs under Netscape'.

There was no competition for the JDK--but there is for Openstep development
tools. 

:Jason

-- 
Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD/
Don't blame me, I voted for Emperor Mollari. 
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From: dental@precipice.com (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign in Tutorial
Date: 11 Mar 1997 21:59:24 GMT
Organization: Dental Records[tm]
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In <5g2rk4$989@netnews.ntu.edu.tw> r5 wrote:
> biesingert@asme.org :
> : Hi, just going through the Tutorial for OpenStep 4.0
> : but 'NSReturnSign' is missing under Images of the IB. 
> : This occurs in the CurrencyConverter tutorial.
> : Thanks for your help!
> : 
> : Thomas
> ya...I found the same problem..in 4.1
> 
> Maybe for the sake of portbility..(My guest is for NT)..
> NeXT take it off...
> 
>                                                 Liu in Taiwan,NTU


it was addressed by Mike P, I think, saying roughly that the other target 
platforms didn't have arrows on their return/enter key. Applied to generic 
intel keyboards, NT, and now to Apple as well.
makes sense, but I think the solution (resulting button with heavier outline 
and dotted line when activated) is not as elegent looking UI-wise. I've 
copied over the NXReturnSign.tiff from 3.2, renamed it NSReturnSign.tiff and 
will (try to) use it on in-house development projects (where ALL keyboards 
INCLUDING intel, have lovely arrows on the enter key.) we'll deal with the 
PowerMac keyboard when we buy it.

-Rick

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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 22:52:44 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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Ulf Olsson  writes
> I took out my Metrowerks CD, unpacked MacApp (Release 12) , and started
> doing the interface and algorithms. Adlib, GWorld, Palette and classes 
> in C++. Easy and simple.
> 
> Until I have to port it to NT ...  (MFC & Windows API - just work)
> and Unix ... (X Forms & X - more work)
> 
> A few questions, observations and opinions:
> 
> 1)	If Rhapsody 2.0 was ready (in 1999? :-) ) could you then 
> 	a) Do the UI in IB on the Mac.
> 	b) Do non-critical stuff in Java class libraries (or Obj-C with 
> 	Java Interfaces)
> 	c) write algorithms in C++ and STL, or ANSI C.
> 	d) move the code to Sun's and SGI for a recompile and run.
> 	e) move the code to NT for a similar recompile and run.
> 	f) put the code on a homepage for Netscape 7.0 to run it.

Actually, this is mostly already working today. You can create a set of  
core logic classes in your C-derived language of choice (C++, Java,  
Objective-C), and create an OpenStep-based GUI for them that will run with  
just a recompile on NT, Mach, and Solaris. You can also create a Web-based  
front end with WebObjects (using Java or just HTML) that drives the same  
logic. There are some missing components right now - No Java on Mach (will  
be in Rhapsody, though), and no OpenStep on SGI. 

> 2)	Will there be a standardized 3D library? (OpenGL, QuickDraw 3D,
> Renderman etc.)

QD3D will be in Rhapsody, probably with an OO framework wrapped around it  
(maybe NeXT's old 3DKit?).
 
> 3)	The developers will be geared towards content and less 
> tools-oriented, which implies higher abstraction levels and higher 
> productivity, but also a higher complexity for the developer. This means 
> more OO libraries, less 4 GL tools and a higher education level.

I don't understand what you're trying to say here. 

> If Apple goes the "Old" Next way the price for developers might become
> too high and not create a market. If it is too low money is lost. 

Yes, this is a problem. Fortunately, software is one of the most  
price-elastic products that exists. We could sell Rhapsody for $5000, or  
for $50 just as easily, since it has essentially zero cost of materials.  
The trick is finding the right price to avoid being buried in development  
and support costs.
 
> Since a Rhapsody developer only needs one OS and one development
> environment (does anyone believe this ? :-) ) 

Actually, this isn't currently true for OpenStep developers. You need a  
copy of WindowsNT, a copy of Solaris, and a copy of Mach if you want to  
cover all the possibilities. It wouldn't be impossible for Apple to  
develop cross-compilers for each OS, but it's not clear how much benefit  
that would have, since you'd probably want to test your program on each  
supported OS (at least).

> So you licence the development environment to Metrowerks for them to 
> sell and help enhancing (If you do not think this is part of "New" Apple 
> core business)

I think this is a bad idea. Having development tools in house is good for  
Apple, and having competition is good for our customers. As long as Apple  
doesn't intentionally trip Metrowerks up (but we're not Microsoft), I  
think there's plenty of room for both.

--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Newbie question: grid views with scroll bars?
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:05:39 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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  Well the subject _just_ about says it all.  In most OO systems you have
"fixed" views and a scroller object to move them about in a fixed context
size (like a window).  OpenStep has this too, text fields for instance.

  Ok, so why does the table view have it's own scrollers?  Why isn't there
a "fixed" table (or mutable for that matter) that you put in a scroller,
and then simply fix the scroll bars if anything changes?

  OR... if there is a good reason for this, why not do it for all the
other applicable view fields as well (like text)?  Am I missing something
obvious?

Maury
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From: pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:09:12 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 46
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In article <5g034e$f8r@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:

> In <>, 
> webboy@webname.com (David) wrote:
> 
> >In article <5fcnhe$7dd@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
> >(James M. Curran) wrote:
> 
> 
> >>
> >>        Apple, on the other hand, has studies that show that people who have
> >>used a Mac for years, are more productive on a Mac than they are on
> >>Win95 upon first seeing it.
> 
> >This is complete un-truth James, and you know it. The studies Apple touts
> >are of cross-platform users. Quit making things up.
> 
> 
>         OK, I phrased that poorly.  "Apple, on the other hand, has studies
> that show that people who have used a Mac for years, and have just
> recently been given a Win95 machine, feel that they are more
> productive on the machine that they are more familiar with"
>        Truth,
>        James

Rephrase it however you please, James -- you have still provided
absolutely no evidence that the study was comprised of 'people who have
used a Mac for years' instead of a random sampling of Mac, Windows, and
dual users with equal experience on both, nor have you provided grounds
for your belief that the participants in the study had 'just recently been
given a Win95 machine' -- unless you wish to call 6-8 months 'recent'.

Your claim about the Evans study is therefore false and remains so until
you confront the counterarguments.

Cheers,

-- 
Phil Brewster  

"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I
 have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could
 converse with those people."

 -- Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle
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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 19:15:14 -0800
Organization: home
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In article <3324A35D.6FEC@sequent.com> Jason Wells  writes:

     SuperCede already can--you can compile to bytecodes or to a .exe.

   So can the Microsoft JVM. In fact, all you have to do to make a Java
   class 'native' is to include the JVM with the bytecode distribution. In
   this sense, it's at least as  'native' as a VB application, with it's
   p-code and VBRUNxx.DLL.

   But who cares? It executes the same way, regardless if the file ends in
   .class or .exe.

SuperCede compiles to native code.  For example, for numerical code,
the ".exe" files generated by it run at about 50% of equivalent
optimized C.  In my benchmarks, Microsoft's JVM is at least a factor
of 10 slower.

Thomas.

PS: There have been several other native code compilers for Java.
Some of them generate code that already performs close to native C.
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From: Chris Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Newbie Interface Builder Question
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 22:17:00 -0500
Organization: ObjectWorks Inc.
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <3326202C.572E@object-works.com>
References: 
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To: Jerome Chan 
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Jerome Chan wrote:

  If I create an instance of a class from the interface builder and
  then add
  elements to it later on, do I have to recreate the file again in the

  Interface Builder? Won't this be bad if I have already written bits
  of
  code in the implementation file that will be overwritten when I
  create
  these files? This looks like quite a big flaw in IB but someone told
  me I
  could just reparse the file.

  How do I do that? The Manuals don't always seem to correspond to the
  screens:)

  ---
   The Evil Tofu (Only Human)

 Jerome,

I wouldn't re- Create files once you've written code into the generated
.h and .m.
I would add the outlets and methods to the .h and use the Read file...
menu item to update InterfaceBuilder. One note - If you have changed /
deleted any of the original outlets or methods since your first when I
last looked (in 4.1) InterfaceBuilder did not delete the old ones. You
will have to delete this by hand.

Chris Johnson

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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 11 Mar 97 21:20:51
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In-reply-to: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM's message of 11 Mar 1997 22:52:44 GMT

In article <5g4nns$3o7@news.next.com>,
	MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) writes:
   Ulf Olsson  writes
   > Since a Rhapsody developer only needs one OS and one development
   > environment (does anyone believe this ? :-) )

   Actually, this isn't currently true for OpenStep developers. You
   need a copy of WindowsNT, a copy of Solaris, and a copy of Mach if
   you want to cover all the possibilities. It wouldn't be impossible
   for Apple to develop cross-compilers for each OS, but it's not
   clear how much benefit that would have, since you'd probably want
   to test your program on each supported OS (at least).

Well, after spending some time porting to OS/NT - and worse, _working_
with OS/NT, I can tell you that I would kill for a means by which I
could do editting and debugging on an OS/Mach platform with the app
itself running on OS/NT.  If I could run ProjectBuilder on OS/Mach and
gdb on the OS/NT system with something like set view-host, I'd
purchase a second system for that sole purpose.

Later,

--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 01:41:03 -0600
From: mark@oaai.com
Subject: Re: Newbie question: grid views with scroll bars?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <858152011.11283@dejanews.com>
Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
References: 
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In article ,
  maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) wrote:
>
>   Well the subject _just_ about says it all.  In most OO systems you have
> "fixed" views and a scroller object to move them about in a fixed context
> size (like a window).  OpenStep has this too, text fields for instance.
>
>   Ok, so why does the table view have it's own scrollers?  Why isn't there
> a "fixed" table (or mutable for that matter) that you put in a scroller,
> and then simply fix the scroll bars if anything changes?
>
>   OR... if there is a good reason for this, why not do it for all the
> other applicable view fields as well (like text)?  Am I missing something
> obvious?
>
> Maury

Good question. The answer is that NSTableView takes advantage of its
fixed location in an NSScrollView to optimize drawing of potentially huge
data sets.

Other widgets tend not to be abused by programmers nearly as much as
NSTableView is (but then again, we programmers tend not to be abused by
other widgets nearly as much as we are by TableView - pre-OpenStep anyway
:-), hence they are architected as you'd expect.

Cheers to all,
Mark
---
M. Onyschuk and Associates Inc.
Software Systems for the U.S. and Canadian Financial Industries.
15 La Rose Ave. Suite 702, Weston Ontario M9P 1A7 (416)241-3076

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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From: Don McKinnon 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: I need software suport help in DC
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 08:38:52 -0500
Organization: U.S. House of Representatives
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3326B1EC.7873@mail.house.gov>
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I have no NeXT skills.
	
I have a slab I've been using since 1990 and I need to hire someone to
fix a few bugs that have accumulated:

I can connect to Novell server, but I can't get printer connectivity.

My memory seems to run out and crash everything.

I need to have someone help me set up my modem.

If its possible, I'd like to be able to connect to an NT server and to
determine if I could run NeXT and Windows 95 from the same machine.

If you or someone you know could help, please let me know what your
hourly rate would be.

Thanks and regards,

Don McKinnon
202 225 2770
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From: Balaji Srinivasa 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 10:11:00 -0500
Organization: Organization?
Lines: 11
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References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> <33190835.19824536@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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Thomas wrote:
> 
> 
> PS: There have been several other native code compilers for Java.
> Some of them generate code that already performs close to native C.
Can you mention a few and which platforms they run on?

Balaji
-- 
__________________________________________________________________________
Balaji Srinivasa - Platinvm Tech - POEMS Development - balaji@platinum.com
####################################################################
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Subject: Click here for Extreme Net Toolz
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSReturnSign is missing
Date: 12 Mar 1997 17:13:27 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I've just tried to understand the sample-Project CurrencyConverter
of "Discovering OpenStep  A Developer Tutorial".
On Page 27 they want me to drag the NSReturnSign-Image from the
Images-Page to the Convert-Button on my Interface, but this image is
defenitivly missing. I reinstalled the DevoloperEnvironment two times
(nothing changed). I cannot find this Image that makes a Button being
activated, when the user presses Return, wich is very important, I suppose. 
So is this a bug.? If yes, how do I fix it?
Thanks in advance!

Andreas
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Sun was Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 12 Mar 1997 19:12:23 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Avionics - Collins
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Sun just made a major presentation at our site.  There were at least 20 sales 
people and some Sun executives.  I asked about Openstep and they asked (who 
sells that ?)  When I told them that they sell it, they told me they did not 
think so.

I guess that Sun is not interested in Openstep anymore.

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From: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 12 Mar 1997 19:37:26 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 33
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In article <5g4nns$3o7@news.next.com> MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) writes:
>Ulf Olsson  writes
>
>> So you licence the development environment to Metrowerks for them to 
>> sell and help enhancing (If you do not think this is part of "New" Apple 
>> core business)
>
>I think this is a bad idea. Having development tools in house is good for  
>Apple, and having competition is good for our customers. As long as Apple  
>doesn't intentionally trip Metrowerks up (but we're not Microsoft), I  
>think there's plenty of room for both.


Thank you, thank you.

Although Mark is not speaking officially, this is a strong clue to
what is obvious to long-time NS/OS developers that all of the
developer tools including PB, IB, gcc, will be shipped with Rhapsody,
and that Apple will not try to cripple the dev environment to placate
Metrowerks which currently dominates the Apple dev tools market.  So,
Rhapsody dev environment will be sufficient by itself for developing
commercial grade applications without a need for extra stuff from
third parties.

This means that, by the time the market for MacOS-to-Rhapsody
porting tools dries up (because they will become unnecessary),
Metrowerks will have to have other tools to enhance basic Apple offerings.

So, what really nice extra dev tools will Metrowerks give us?

Izumi Ohzawa


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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 14:03:22 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
Lines: 26
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 199.166.204.230
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  I while back I bemoaned the lack of an integrated document class under
OpenStep.  On most of the systems I've used you have a document that
tracks changes to...

a) a collection of views that display the document on screen
b) the printing system and page layout when printed
c) the file and storage on the disk

  Documents are "known" by the application object, who sends it things
when it gets a New, Save, Quit etc.  Very hand things documents, but they
always seem to have limits.  Most offer nothing to the programmer for
dealing with documents that have multiple data types within them.  Most
application objects don't know what to do if you have more than one
document type the application handles (PowerPlant being an exception). 
Still, handy to have.

  But the more I read the docs, do you even need these things under OS? 
Don't you just make a generic "document" in the controller level, make it
a dependant of the application (I assume you can have any number of
these), then attach all the objects you want to it?  Is it really that
simple?

  And is it reasonable to use Dictonaries and the persistence system for
just about any compound file type?

Maury
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Sun was Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 12 Mar 1997 20:03:59 GMT
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Erik M. Buck writes
> Sun just made a major presentation at our site.  There were at least 20 
> sales people and some Sun executives.  I asked about Openstep and they 
> asked (who sells that ?)  When I told them that they sell it, they told 
> me they did not think so.
> 
> I guess that Sun is not interested in Openstep anymore.

I'd guess this has been true since Bill Joy spilled a mug of coffee on 
Scott McNealy's only copy of the OPENSTEP specification a few years ago.

I mean, seriously, the OPENSTEP initiative was announced in November 1993, 
long before anyone outside of Sun ever heard of Java. Now suppose you're 
Sun, and the Internet starts getting really big, and all everyone wants 
to talk about this exciting Java that will make it manageable. What would 
_you_ do? Cut it off at the knees by talking about alternatives, or hold 
it high as God's Gift To Programming?

Whatever enthusiasm Sun once had for OPENSTEP died as soon as Java hit 
the big time. Too often in the past, Sun made the mistake of supporting 
multiple products for the same task. It just made users confused. Hence 
McNealy's famous phrase "Put all the wood behind one arrow." It's been 
obvious for some time which arrow had the wood. Which is not to suggest 
they aren't still running some "just in case" skunkworks projects that 
will probably never see the light of day.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: see@address.in.signature (Martiin-Gilles Lavoie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 13:46:58 -0500
Organization: Internet-Login
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In article , jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:

[...]
 
> Mac menus take up the top of the screen all the time, except in those
> apps that hide them.  You still can't use the top twenty pixels though,
> in most cases, since moving the mouse to the top reveals the menu bar.

Clarification: hiding the menu bar does not cause it to reappear if you
move the mouse in it's region.  This bahaviour is enforced (mostly) by
game programmers who dont want the user to be distracted by the menu bar
(such as when the game is set on a black background), but want the menus
still accessible.

When the menu bar is hidden on the Mac, it's for good!  You have to do
some extra footwork to put it back and out again in application switches.

For myself, I think a hybrid menu system would be interesting and easilly
acoomplished.  Those who'd rater have NeXT-style main menus versus
Mac-style main menus would simply have to flip a check box somewhere
(being a relativelly new NeXTSTEP user, I'm not sure where this should
be).

MGL

-- 
 Martin-Gilles Lavoie       |    "No!  Try not.  Do!  or do not
  mouser@zercom.net         |     There is no try."
www.zercom.net/~mouser/     |     --Yoda on error handling
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From: Ulf Olsson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 12 Mar 1997 20:37:56 GMT
Organization: Distinct Systems i Sverige AB
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Mark Bessey, MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM
>Ulf Olsson  writes
>> A few questions, observations and opinions:
>> 
>> 1)	If Rhapsody 2.0 was ready (in 1999? :-) ) could you then 
>> 	a) Do the UI in IB on the Mac.
>> 	b) Do non-critical stuff in Java class libraries (or Obj-C with 
>> 	Java Interfaces)
>> 	c) write algorithms in C++ and STL, or ANSI C.
>> 	d) move the code to Sun's and SGI for a recompile and run.
>> 	e) move the code to NT for a similar recompile and run.
>> 	f) put the code on a homepage for Netscape 7.0 to run it.
>
>Actually, this is mostly already working today. You can create a set of  
>core logic classes in your C-derived language of choice (C++, Java,  
>Objective-C), and create an OpenStep-based GUI for them that will run with  
>just a recompile on NT, Mach, and Solaris. You can also create a Web-based  
>front end with WebObjects (using Java or just HTML) that drives the same  
>logic. There are some missing components right now - No Java on Mach (will  
>be in Rhapsody, though), and no OpenStep on SGI. 

Yes, I am kind of mentally adjusting to this reality. :-)

>> 2)	Will there be a standardized 3D library? (OpenGL, QuickDraw 3D,
>> Renderman etc.)
>
>QD3D will be in Rhapsody, probably with an OO framework wrapped around it  
>(maybe NeXT's old 3DKit?).

Nice. Instead of doing it in MacApp R12 which I am currently
contemplating.
But on the other hand, I am kind of more familiar with MacApp. It seems
this old dog
has to relearn a few things here ...

>> 3)	The developers will be geared towards content and less 
>> tools-oriented, which implies higher abstraction levels and higher 
>> productivity, but also a higher complexity for the developer. This means 
>> more OO libraries, less 4 GL tools and a higher education level.
>
>I don't understand what you're trying to say here. 

I was trying to express my experience with 4GL tools where you can do 70%
of what
you want to do, and then have to expand the tool by writing external code
(if it even
is possible) and the result is lower quality and feels glued on.

When you work inside frameworks there is a lot more processes the
developer have to
control, like
	
	Top-down thinking: Class and instance hierarkies, Abstract classes,
References
	bottom-up thinking: Neat solution, can I generalize this? Create a
pattern?
	(I call the above "centralized thinking" since it is active at the same
time)
	Using the framework efficiently: In this framework I do serialization by
Archive,
									in this one I create a stream.
	Exceptions: How can this go wrong, and how do I handle it.
	...
	
but the result after a project is higher quality, a set of classes that
are well integrated
into the famework and can be reused by others.
	
This demands a lot more from the developer in terms of ability to
abstract current activities,
put it in perspective visavi project schedules and possible future use,
and communicate the
result in a efficient manner.

This can to some regard be trained I think, and that is what I mean by
higher education level.
Observe that I do not mean formal education but in a "JIT"-learning way.

This leads to an interesting question (for me, at least):

When I currently write inside frameworks I can access source code how
things REALLY work, and
sometimes that is a great time savior. Also you know how to integrate
your subclass in a 
correct way (from the framework's viewpoint). When you do not have that
possibility, how does it
change your work modus operandi?



Ulf Olsson

--- Expressing the only opinion I have: my own ---
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From: jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 12 Mar 1997 13:08:19 -0000
Organization: I need to put my ORGANIZATION here.
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In article ,
Scott Hess  wrote:
>In article <5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>,
>	jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) writes:
>   Yah, but why not use *both*? [C++ and Objective C]
>
>Too much investment in tools would be required.

Not necesarily.  I can write mixed language programs on a Linux
box using one set of tools: GCC supports C++, Objective C and C.

[Well, of course, it supports other languages as well, but that
is outside the bounds of this discussion.]

>We've already been
>through the shredder once just to get versions of Objective-C right
>for other platforms.  Objective-C++ is essentially a NeXT thing right
>now, and though it might eventually work right under gcc, and perhaps
>Metrowerks, we needed it _now_.  [Actually, a year or two ago, but
>who's counting.]

Ok, so what you are saying is that you couldn't do it back then.

Cool.  You could do it now, with a new project.

>   Use C++ where fast OO is needed, use C for the stuff that has to
>   run quite literally as fast as possible, and use Objective C where
>   speed is of little or no importance (distributed objects and GUI
>   work, for instance. . .).
>
>Success isn't that precise - there are few projects where success
>hinges on the incremental performance improvement of C++ over
>Objective-C for a given object hierarchy.

Depends on your market.  But in general, MS has certainly proven that
poor (not unacceptably poor, just poor) performance doesn't adversely
affect sales of a program.

>Not when you can achieve
>better improvement by spending another $100 on your CPU.

Yah.  And in some respects, the CPU manafacturers owe a debt of
gratitude to programmers for copping that attitude.  If we, as
consumers *OR* producers took a different tack, the fastest CPU
might still only run at 75 MHz.

>OTOH, success _does_ hinge on the ability of your architecture to
>adapt.

True.  But less so than you might think.  It is questionable whether
the performance loss of Objective C will have any impact on sales,
but it is certainly true that the configuration and administration
issues involved in allowing that much flexibility (especially at
the user level) might very well constitute good reason for avoiding
the highest possible level of adaptibility (ie, plugability).

The market will decide that, if it hasn't already (with the NC concept).

>Mixing C++ and Objective-C makes good sense if you're
>integrating modules from different sources, but for a system which you
>started afresh on, it's just asking for trouble.

Not guaranteed.  But certainly likely with a C++, or an Objective C
development team, instead of an OOP trained team.

The ideal solution is to use the appropriate language for the
appropriate task, while the reality is that the language that the
programmer is most experienced/trained/comfortable/has the tools for
is oft times what gets used.

>The gain of coding
>segments in C++ is likely to be overwhelmed by the loss due to having
>to wrap your mind around a system that's potentially significantly
>more complex.  It's bad enough initiating a new developer into a
>system using _one_ language ...

Good points, all good points.  I find it easy to mix 'em, but that
doesn't mean everybody would.

And my scenario *presupposes* people who learned OOP, not people who
learned C, then C++ (as is so often the case), as well as assuming a
careful and reasonably complete design/production scenario.

Which may very well be so unlikely as to constitute a ideology, not
a practical goal.

John S.
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From: aaf@ais.net (Allister Fuchs)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Daryll Anton has equipment that does not belong to him
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:22:46 GMT
Organization: American Information Systems, Inc.
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Daryll Anton still has not returned equipment he promised to return to
me three weeks ago in an email from a Tom Bell at his company.  As you
refuse to return my email I assume this is the only way to get your
attention.

This equipment does NOT belong to you.  You did not pay for the system
($1500), you merely paid the COD charges on the 17" color monitor,
keyboard, mouse and soundbox ($63.00).  The COD charges were split
between the two boxes - $63.00 on the monitor box, the balance on the
CPU box.  The business arrangement was to sell the system to you for
$1500.00.  NOT, pay the COD charges on the Monitor box and leave it at
that.

Tom Bell emailed me three weeks ago and stated that you no longer wish
to purchase the system from me.  He stated that the COD on the CPU had
been refused and consequently it was on its way back RETUN TO SENDER.
It has arrived.  He also stated that the "17 Color NeXT monitor,
keyboard, mouse, soundbox and cable were being shipped back to me the
next day.  It has NOT arrived!!!

I have now emailed daisho@earthlink.net 2x with no response.  I have
requested a phone number or email address for yourself, another member
of your company, or a representative attorney - and no response has
been forthcoming.

Please explain your lack of communication and the status of the
equipment to either myself or this newsgroup as a whole.  My email
address is attached in case you have "forgotten" it.

Allister Fuchs
aaf@ais.net

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From: davem@franklin.com (David T. McWherter)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 21:35:20 GMT
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>>>
 AFS is
unrelated to Apple File Sharing (and in fact, there is no AFS client
for Macintosh, AFS is mostly implemented on Unix file systems).
Think of it as a grown-up replacement for NFS.
<<<

Well, at CMU there's a program called MacMail II, which gives you 
the ability to copy files from an AFS volume over the network, as
well as save files to an AFS volume, all from your Macintosh.
It's not the best tool in the world (it's much more convenient to
use Fetch and go through an FTP server to get at the info on the
volumes), but it exists...

-David McWherter

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From: dental@precipice.com (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign in Tutorial
Date: 12 Mar 1997 17:10:59 GMT
Organization: Dental Records[tm]
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In <5g4kjs$f57@news1-alterdial.uu.net> Rick Sanford wrote:
> In <5g2rk4$989@netnews.ntu.edu.tw> r5 wrote:
> > biesingert@asme.org :
> > : Hi, just going through the Tutorial for OpenStep 4.0
> > : but 'NSReturnSign' is missing under Images of the IB. 
> > : 
> > : Thomas
> > ya...I found the same problem..in 4.1
> > 
> >                                                 Liu in Taiwan,NTU
> 
> it was addressed by Mike P, I think, saying roughly that the other target 
> platforms didn't have arrows on their return/enter key. 
> 
> -Rick
> 


walked by a WIZ store yesterday in Manhattan, they had an IBM Aptiva (PC) in 
the window. It has arrow on the enter/return key (it's also black... but I 
still don't think I'm buying any IBM), so maybe some PCs do have the arrow 
afterall.

-rick










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From: Jason Wells 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 15:50:55 -0800
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kennel@lyapunov.ucsd.edu wrote:

  On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:23:50 -0800, Jason Wells 
  wrote:
  ::What Apple oughta do is package an OpenStep Developers Kit (ODK),
  with

  :just a minimalist implementation (as in, no IDE, command line
  compilers,

  :etc.) but missing no core features, and leave it on their web site
  as a
  :free download for users of NextStep (user edition) and Windows.
  They
  :should mirror Sun's approach to JDK exactly. If they were doing
  this,
  :I'd be writing code for Rhapsody today. Then later, when the really
  nice
  :polished tools are ready, I'd be in a position to buy them.

  But the polished tools really are ready.

But are they downloadable for free?This is essential, in my opinion.

  I think there's an essential
  distinction between the markets:  with JDK there was *no other way*
  to
  write applets which worked in a web browser, which was a strongly
  compelling need.  With Openstep, there already is serious
  competition for
  writing 'ordinary desktop programs', called all the Windows
  development
  tools.  There is not such a burning desire for 'anything which runs
  on
  Openstep', as there was for 'anything which runs under Netscape'.

  There was no competition for the JDK--but there is for Openstep
  development
  tools.

This is precisely why and OpenStep development kit should be given away.
*Because* there is competition. In fact, Java probably could have
survived even if only licensed and not given away, though its
introduction would have been much slower. Apple has an even more urgent
need to generate interest in OpenStep thanSun did with Java.

  :Jason

  --
  Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD/
  Don't blame me, I voted for Emperor Mollari.

Jason

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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Platform independence, Java and Juice (Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?)
Date: 12 Mar 1997 22:46:03 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) wrote:
> Luc Dubois writes
> > But... but... but... Hasn't Apple become what it is, *exactly
> > because* it wasn't/isn't afraid of swimming against the tide?
> > Now, Java as I see it is a nice first attempt at platform-
> > independence.  There currently *is* already a better technology
> > available.  It's called "Juice" and is based on the language
> > Oberon (from the school of Niklaus Wirth).
> 
> [Note to other readers: you really ought to read up on Juice
> before reading farther. See: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~juice/ ]
> 
> Juice is an interesting idea - too bad Java already has the
> limelight. Do you honestly think that *Oberon* is going to gain
> mindshare against Java?  Outside of academic users, who's even
> heard of Modula 3 or Oberon?

DEC has heard of Modula3...   :-)

> And I want a totally separate mechanism for downloading executable
> content off the Net. Something like the Juice idea, but either
> language-independent, or at least based on a language I like :-)

One thing I wondered was if there are things about Juice which
would preclude Java compiling into Juice.  Is it really all that
tied to Oberon?

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: NEW and IMPROVED!  Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
Date: 13 Mar 1997 03:58:10 +0100
Organization: Posting Service
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Web Site Revised 3/12/1997

For the quickest, dirtiest Y2K solution,
check out the following web site:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

Dash Langan

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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign is missing
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:42:10 -0500
Organization: Language Schools of Middlebury College
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andreas@lynet.de,UseNet writes:

>I've just tried to understand the sample-Project CurrencyConverter

>of "Discovering OpenStep  A Developer Tutorial".

>On Page 27 they want me to drag the NSReturnSign-Image from the

>Images-Page to the Convert-Button on my Interface, but this image is

>defenitivly missing. I reinstalled the DevoloperEnvironment two times

>(nothing changed). I cannot find this Image that makes a Button being

>activated, when the user presses Return, wich is very important, I suppose. 

>So is this a bug.? If yes, how do I fix it?

>Thanks in advance!


Not a bug in the software or installer, but rather in the documentation. The documentation was not very effectively updated from nextstep to openstep and there are several places where it is in error. Another example: the tutorials will tell you to select
various things from the "action" menu which the screen shots show as being diretly in one of the Interface builder windows. This menu does NOT exist. To build the files and to instantiate an object you will use the main menu instead and select the correct
commands from the Object menu.


BTW, don't worry about the return icon at all. Your button will still work quite well without it.



-- 

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Platform independence, Java and Juice (Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 04:07:02 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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On 12 Mar 1997 22:46:03 GMT, Garance A Drosehn
 wrote:
>> Juice is an interesting idea - too bad Java already has the
>> limelight. Do you honestly think that *Oberon* is going to gain
>> mindshare against Java?  Outside of academic users, who's even
>> heard of Modula 3 or Oberon?
>
>DEC has heard of Modula3...   :-)
>

Yes, but whenever anyone tells me about a great new DEC
product, I think "Well, that's academic now."


Cheers,

Andy
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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:28:54 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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Martiin-Gilles Lavoie wrote:
> For myself, I think a hybrid menu system would be interesting and
> easilly acoomplished.  Those who'd rater have NeXT-style main menus
> versus Mac-style main menus would simply have to flip a check box
> somewhere (being a relativelly new NeXTSTEP user, I'm not sure where
> this should be).
> 

While a hybrid menu system would be easy to implement (I'll bet I
cound do it on system 7.x with only a few weeks coding) I'm sure
that it would break a bunch of thrid party utilities. While causing
the UI system to display the menus in a variety of different ways
(along the top of the screen, along the top of certain windows, as
a floating panel, etc.) might be fairly simple, allowing third
parties to extend the menu system in all of it's different modes
might be a much larger challenge.

Now I know that support for existing third party utilities is not
much of a priority (I expect all such system level programs to be
completely broken by Rhapsody) it is probably a priority to allow
such system extension to be done in Rhapsody, even if a major
rewrite is required.

I'm all for a far more customizable UI in the upcomming Mac OS. I
would like to see a UI in which I can actually specify the UI's
behavior rather than a few cosmetic details (ala Win95's custom
UI where the user gets to pick different colors and window border
widths). I would like to see menu placement and behavior under
complete user control. I would similarly like to be able to move
window controls to different positions in the window (like swapping
the shrink and close boxes). I would even like to be able to muck
with the binding of UI controls to application actions! (shades of
emacs)

- Jeff Dutky
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From: Xpress2000@xpsoft.com (XPS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.lang.c++,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.novell,comp.sys.powerpc,comp.sys.psion.programmer,comp.sys.sun,comp.sys.sun.apps,comp.sys.sun.misc,comp.sys.tandem,comp.sys.unisys,comp.sys.vms
Subject: FREE Year 2000 full working demo software. Look inside
Date: 12 Mar 1997 21:33:18 GMT
Organization: Xpress Software, Inc
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language independent software. Demo comes with a ANSI  Cobol parser.

   http://www.xpsoft.com/downpage.html



-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
     xPress2000(tm), Inventory2000(tm), Imp2000(tm), Make2000(tm)
     The computer language independent and syntax aware smart parsers
                for year 2000 and European  currency conversion
                          at a 1900 price
                    Conversion Services Also Provided
                                 XPS
                             95 RamsHorn Rd
                             Dudley  MA 01571
                                  USA
                            Tel: (508) 987-1922
                            Fax: (508) 943-2490
                           http://www.xpsoft.com/
                              sales@xpsoft.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Platform independence, Java and Juice (Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?)
Date: 10 Mar 1997 17:17:58 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5g1fo6$2la@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
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In article <5g1tkn$o21@news.next.com>, mark_bessey@next.com wrote:

> [Note to other readers: you really ought to read up on Juice before  
> reading any farther. See: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~juice/ ]

> Juice is an interesting idea - too bad Java already has the limelight. Do  
> you honestly think that *Oberon* is going to gain mindshare against Java?  

I don't, for better or worse.

> In fact, the Java language meets nearly all those requirements. It's just  
> this stupid byte-code nonsense that I don't like. I mean, what's the point  
> of compiling your Java code into bytecodes, then loading it on the target,  
> where it's recompiled into native code, after all the syntax cues have  
> been removed? 

I guess because it's faster to compile bytecodes to native than it is to
compile Java source to native.  But as long as you're compiling native
at some point, Juice is better than bytecodes.

I also get the feeling that Java was originally designed to be a primarily
interpreted language, and all this JIT stuff is an afterthought.  If they
had designed it to be usually compiled, they probably would have gone
with something like Juice instead of bytecodes.

> What I really want is a Java native-code compiler

I think somebody already makes one..  probably for Wintel.

> (or a Java to ObjC  
> translator), so I can take advantage of local optimizations, while not  
> losing the true advantages of Java, which relate more to reliability and  
> security than platform independence. 

I'd love to see a Java to Obj-C translator..  but I'd rather see an
Obj-C to Juice compiler.  Or at the very least, a Java to Juice
compiler.  Then you can use the separate Juice-to-native compiler either
at runtime to obtain platform independence, or keep it native.

I personally like the platform independence of Java (or Juice), and I
think that it will become much more prevalent.  I hate the fat binary
solution.  But that's a matter of preference, of course.
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nathan Urban  | Undergrad {CS,Physics,Math} |        Virginia Tech
nurban@vt.edu |  {NeXT,MIME} mail welcome   | http://nurban.campus.vt.edu/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: erich@powerwareintl.com (Eric Harley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 06:59:15 -0800
Organization: EdgeMedia Networks
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In article <5g7bcs$jfa@hideout.emanon.net>, davem@franklin.com wrote:

> >>>
>  AFS is
> unrelated to Apple File Sharing (and in fact, there is no AFS client
> for Macintosh, AFS is mostly implemented on Unix file systems).
> Think of it as a grown-up replacement for NFS.
> <<<
> 
> Well, at CMU there's a program called MacMail II, which gives you 
> the ability to copy files from an AFS volume over the network, as
> well as save files to an AFS volume, all from your Macintosh.
> It's not the best tool in the world (it's much more convenient to
> use Fetch and go through an FTP server to get at the info on the
> volumes), but it exists...
> 

Where could somebody get a copy? or do you have to be enrolled at CMU to?
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From: "Willi Berger" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Accessing Obj-C Frameworks from Visual Baisc ?
Date: 13 Mar 1997 16:19:27 GMT
Organization: Resource Advisory
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <01bc2fca$ab7f09a0$45ab45cf@apollo>
NNTP-Posting-Host: user-37kbaq5.dialup.mindspring.com
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I was wondering if anyone has run into this problem.  

I have a built a framework that uses EOF to fetch data and perform various
calculations.  I now would like to make this functionality available to a
Visual Basic Front end application.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Under Openstep 4.1   performed the following and it worked fine. On 4.2
Prerelease 1 it doesnt't work properly

In the framework

#ifndef __GNUC__
extern "C" {
#endif
	__declspec(dllexport) int foo1();
	__declspec(dllexport) int foo(char *rptStr);
#ifndef __GNUC__
};
#endif

On the Visual Basic side of things.

Declare Function foo1 Lib "D:\NEXT\Executables\Framework.dll" () As Integer
Declare Function foo Lib "D:\NEXT\Executables\Framework.dll" (rptStr As
String) As Integer

and call the function

Dim intValue As Integer

	intValue = foo1		' This Function gets called and works
	intValue = foo("testRpt") ' This Function Fails
---------------------------------------------------------------

When I execute this code I "foo" fails with the following message

Runtime Error '49' Bad DLL calling convention 

It appears that the functions fail whenever there is an argument regardless
of type

Any help would be very much appreciated and thank you for taking the time
to read this.

- willi

w_berger@mindspring.com



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From: Stefano Pagiola 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:33:18 -0500
Organization: World Bank
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Garance A Drosehn wrote:
> ...  At one point should the cs.next
> newsgroups just fold into cs.mac?  I don't think we've thought
> that through yet.

Well, for programming, at least, it would probably make sense to have a
separate rhapsody group, as opposed to the regular MacOS group.

-- 
Stefano Pagiola
850 N Randolph Str No.817, Arlington VA 22203, USA
All opinions are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of my employer
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Good Introduction to OpenStep-Programming
Date: 13 Mar 1997 17:17:50 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0

Hello,

I'm going to develop software for OpenStep.
I tried the Online-Docu and the printed 
Next-Books, but I find them little hard to get 
through. 
Is there a good introduction to Objective-C
and the Objects Framework from a third party?

Andreas
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign is missing
Date: 13 Mar 1997 17:51:45 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <5g9erh$8c9$1@lynet.de>
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In , herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) writes:
>andreas@lynet.de,UseNet writes:
>
>>I've just tried to understand the sample-Project CurrencyConverter
>
>>of "Discovering OpenStep  A Developer Tutorial".
>
>>On Page 27 they want me to drag the NSReturnSign-Image from the
>
>>Images-Page to the Convert-Button on my Interface, but this image is
>
>>defenitivly missing. I reinstalled the DevoloperEnvironment two times
>
>>(nothing changed). I cannot find this Image that makes a Button being
>
>>activated, when the user presses Return, wich is very important, I suppose. 
>
>>So is this a bug.? If yes, how do I fix it?
>
>>Thanks in advance!
>
>
>Not a bug in the software or installer, but rather in the documentation. The documentation was not very effectively updated from nextstep to openstep and there are several places where it is in error. Another example: the tutorials will tell you to select
>various things from the "action" menu which the screen shots show as being diretly in one of the Interface builder windows. This menu does NOT exist. To build the files and to instantiate an object you will use the main menu instead and select the correct
>commands from the Object menu.
>
>
>BTW, don't worry about the return icon at all. Your button will still work quite well without it.
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>David Herren --------------------------------------------------
>
>                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/
>
>                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu
>
>           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu
>
Nice to hear, but what do I do, if I want the Button to be activated,
when the user presses Return. Is this function currently not available?

Andreas
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From: ehutch@hypnos.norden1.com (E. Hutchinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXT/Career Position/ILL
Date: 13 Mar 1997 19:42:20 GMT
Organization: Norden 1 Communications
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Programmer/analyst/developer
NEXTSTEP--------------------Commercial experience
Objective C-----------------Commercial experience
EOF-------------------------A Plus
Opport8unity----------------Excellent
Must Be---------------------US Citizen or Greencard
To Be Considered------------Fax resume or mail a hard copy.

--
ehutch@norden1.com		(419) 893-6367 [fax]
Omni Search			(419) 893-6334 [voice]
1310 Craig
Maumee, Ohio 43537
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.system
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:38:39 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 27
Message-ID: 
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 13-Mar-97 Re: Mac/NeXT &
Unix: File S.. by Eric Harley@powerwareint 
>> Well, at CMU there's a program called MacMail II, which gives you 
>> the ability to copy files from an AFS volume over the network, as
>> well as save files to an AFS volume, all from your Macintosh.
>> It's not the best tool in the world (it's much more convenient to
>> use Fetch and go through an FTP server to get at the info on the
>> volumes), but it exists...
>  
> Where could somebody get a copy? or do you have to be enrolled at CMU to?

Unless you've got AFS servers around, _and_ you're getting your mail
through AMS (the Andrew Message System, now deprecated in favor of
Cyrus), MacMail doesn't have any use.

That being said, I don't know what the availability of that software
is-- possibly, you could pick up a free copy off of one of the CMU
AppleShare servers or off of AFS, or purchase the software through CMU's
computer store.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: joerd@mail.wsu.edu
Subject: PB and system 4.1
Sender: news@serval.net.wsu.edu (News)
Message-ID: <970313112246.1435AAFgJ.wayne@pareto>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 19:22:46 GMT
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Advice wanted:
I am about to go back to Nextstep 3.3 from Openstep 4.1 because I don't like
ProjectBuilder for my simple generic research programming projects.  I think
I could live with it if I could get gdb to use Edit for the view command, as
with Nextstep 3.3 instead of PB.

Does anybody know of an option to redirect view from PB to Edit under
Openstep 4.1?

Thanks in advance.

Wayne Joerding
Professor of Economics				Ofc: 509-335-6468
Washington State University			FAX: 509-335-4362
PO Box 644741
http://cbeunix.cbe.wsu.edu/~joerd/
Pullman WA 99164				email: joerd@mail.wsu.edu

"Stupidity always has the chance of being a capital offense."
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From: Fred.Hart3@bridge.bst.bls.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Documentation on NSBundle's localizedStringForKey:value:comment
Date: 13 Mar 1997 15:40:29 -0500
Organization: BellSouth ATG lab
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I am looking for information on localizedStringForKey...  In
particular I am looking for information on the default table.  What is
its name? How is it formatted?  The following is all that appears in
the NSBundle doc available online at NeXT.

localizedStringForKey:value:comment: 

- (NSString *)localizedStringForkey:(NSString *)key value:(NSString *)value comment:(NSString *)comment

Returns a localized version of the string designated by key. value and
comment are associated with key in the default table See also:
localizedStringForKey:value:comment:table:

localizedStringForKey:value:comment:table: 
- (NSString *)localizedStringForkey:(NSString *)key value:(NSString *)value comment:(NSString *)comment table:(NSString *)tableName 

Returns a localized version of the string designated by key. value and
comment are associated with key in the table specified by
tableName. If tableName is nil, the default table is used. See also: 
localizedStringForKey:value:comment:

-- Fred Hart
-- Fred.Hart3@bridge.bst.bls.com
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 13 Mar 97 15:05:57
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 108
Message-ID: 
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> 
	<5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>
	
	<5g69s3$eq5@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>
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In-reply-to: jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov's message of 12 Mar 1997 13:08:19 -0000
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In article <5g69s3$eq5@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>,
	jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) writes:
   In article ,
	Scott Hess  wrote:
   >In article <5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>,
   >	jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) writes:
   >   Yah, but why not use *both*? [C++ and Objective C]
   >
   >Too much investment in tools would be required.

   Not necesarily.  I can write mixed language programs on a Linux box
   using one set of tools: GCC supports C++, Objective C and C.

I'd _much_ rather be targetting Linux.  Not going to happen (though I
keep trying).  I'm just happy enough to be able to do most of the
kernel development on NeXT's, leaving just the UI development on the
target ...

   >   Use C++ where fast OO is needed, use C for the stuff that has
   >   to run quite literally as fast as possible, and use Objective C
   >   where speed is of little or no importance (distributed objects
   >   and GUI work, for instance. . .).
   >
   >Success isn't that precise - there are few projects where success
   >hinges on the incremental performance improvement of C++ over
   >Objective-C for a given object hierarchy.

   Depends on your market.

I'd argue that it depends on your team's programming abilities, and
the abilities of the team leaders and managers, along with the quality
of the design.  Most programs are performance losses not because of
anything so simple as a faster message dispatch mechanism.  I'd argue
that the message dispatch overhead is almost always so minor of a
concern as to be irrelevant.  [Well, assuming someone put at least
_half_ a thought into implementing it, of course :-).]

   >Not when you can achieve better improvement by spending another
   >$100 on your CPU.

   Yah.  And in some respects, the CPU manafacturers owe a debt of
   gratitude to programmers for copping that attitude.  If we, as
   consumers *OR* producers took a different tack, the fastest CPU
   might still only run at 75 MHz.

Again, C++ versus Objective-C is not the difference between 75Mhz
Pentiums and 200Mhz Pentiums.  It might be the difference between
66Mhz Pentiums and 75Mhz Pentiums, sure, or 180Mhz and 200Mhz.  We
need 200 Mhz Pentiums to run word processors for reasons other than
the performance characteristics of the language the package is based
on, to a great degree.

Besides, I said $100.  If you have to spend an extra $1000 to hit the
sweet spot, you'd better have a _damn_ good reason why you can't just
make the program more efficient.  Converting from Objective-C to C++
is not going to give you that kind of gain, though, you have to make
algorithmic changes.  In my experience, Objective-C allows me to make
those algorithmic changes more quickly than C++.

   >OTOH, success _does_ hinge on the ability of your architecture to
   >adapt.

   True.  But less so than you might think.  It is questionable
   whether the performance loss of Objective C will have any impact on
   sales, but it is certainly true that the configuration and
   administration issues involved in allowing that much flexibility
   (especially at the user level) might very well constitute good
   reason for avoiding the highest possible level of adaptibility (ie,
   plugability).

Not sure what you're saying, here.  I could care less if third parties
or users can plug into my project.  I'm arguing that _I_ can plug into
my project better with Objective-C than C++, and so can my other
developers.  That _is_ a gain.

   >The gain of coding segments in C++ [along with Objective-C] is
   >likely to be overwhelmed by the loss due to having to wrap your
   >mind around a system that's potentially significantly more
   >complex.  It's bad enough initiating a new developer into a system
   >using _one_ language ...

   Good points, all good points.  I find it easy to mix 'em, but that
   doesn't mean everybody would.

   And my scenario *presupposes* people who learned OOP, not people
   who learned C, then C++ (as is so often the case), as well as
   assuming a careful and reasonably complete design/production
   scenario.

   Which may very well be so unlikely as to constitute a ideology, not
   a practical goal.

My theory on this is that anyone who doesn't say "Can't we just use
Smalltalk" at least _once_ during the planning phases probably doesn't
get OOP :-).  If there's one thing that the "real world" has taught
me, it's that whether it can if you could clone yourself is besides
the point - you have to work with what you've got.  In most cases,
that means that tools that could possibly be used aren't used, because
they'll slow things down because you have to keep explaining things.
If mixing C++ with Objective-C would make a project perform 50%
faster, that's perhaps worth it - but if it makes things only 10%
faster, it's a questionable pursuit.

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 00:32:48 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Stevens  wrote:
: I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Java compilers producing *native*
: executable code in the very near future.  So, you see, that would mean
: that Java would be both portable, and fast enough.

SFW. Java's runtime is an order of magnitude more complex than ObjC's.
Native compilation isn't going to change that. 1.1's dynamic method
dispatch means no cheating and inlining every function. 


-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: scottm@nic.com (Scott)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: NEW and IMPROVED!  Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:04:29 -0500
Organization: PETA (People for the Eating of Tasty Animals)
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In article <199703122344.PAA21362@sirius.infonex.com>,
dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan) wrote:

>Web Site Revised 3/12/1997
>
>For the quickest, dirtiest Y2K solution,
>check out the following web site:
>http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/
>
Why are you posting this in Mac groups? The Mac will handle the year 2000
just fine. It was designed that way.

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Scott Maxwell - scottm (at) nic (dot) com
 "The Mac is plug and play, Windows is plug and pray."
                            David Forte Technology Manager (TIME Magazine)
 "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated" - Mac Twain
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: 14 Mar 1997 01:36:30 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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davem@franklin.com (David T. McWherter) wrote:
> 
> >>> Garance wrote:
> AFS is unrelated to Apple File Sharing (and in fact, there is no
> AFS client for Macintosh, AFS is mostly implemented on Unix file
> systems).  Think of it as a grown-up replacement for NFS.
> <<<
> 
> Well, at CMU there's a program called MacMail II, which gives
> you the ability to copy files from an AFS volume over the network,
> as well as save files to an AFS volume, all from your Macintosh.
> It's not the best tool in the world (it's much more convenient
> to use Fetch and go through an FTP server to get at the info on
> the volumes), but it exists...

I think I need to be a bit more descriptive, to clear up a bit
of confusion here (and in emails that I have received).

There is no AFS client for a Mac.  That is to say, there is no
client for a MacOS which gets it to talk and understand the AFS
protocols, not in the same way that unix workstations implement
the protocols.

That does not mean it is impossible to get at AFS files from a
Mac.  Umich has something called netatalk which you can install
on a unix machine, and it will make any files on that machine
(including AFS files) available to Macs which connect to it.  I
have similar updates to CAP (and I'm sure plenty of other people
have written such updates for CAP).  The thing is, the Mac is
connecting to the unix box as if the unix box was an Appleshare
file server.  The mac does not know about AFS, but the unix box
is translating things so the Mac can get at those files.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Yikes! Nextians: Mac wusses can't cripple Rhapsody, can they?
Date: 14 Mar 1997 02:13:14 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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Message-ID: <5gac7q$kq0@usenet.rpi.edu>
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"Jeffrey S. Dutky"  wrote:
> Martiin-Gilles Lavoie wrote:
> > For myself, I think a hybrid menu system would be interesting
> > and easilly acoomplished.  Those who'd rater have NeXT-style
> > main menus versus Mac-style main menus would simply have to
> > flip a check box somewhere (being a relativelly new NeXTSTEP
> > user, I'm not sure where this should be).
> 
> While a hybrid menu system would be easy to implement (I'll bet
> I cound do it on system 7.x with only a few weeks coding) I'm
> sure that it would break a bunch of third party utilities.

I don't think it would break much of anything if it was in
Rhapsody.  What kind of applications/utilties are there to
consider:
  1) ones for the current MacOS.  It would be quite reasonable
     to say that this option will not effect MacOS ("blue box")
     applications, but only Rhapsody ("openstep api") apps.
  2) ones for NeXTSTEP.  more specifically, ones written to
     the OpenStep API's that are in NeXTSTEP 4.0.  I would
     pretty much bet that there are *very* few third-party
     utilities written to the new API's.  Most NeXTSTEP apps
     and utilities are written for the earlier (NeXTSTEP-3.x)
     API's, and they are already broken due to the newer API's.


> While causing the UI system to display the menus in a variety of
> different ways (along the top of the screen, along the top of
> certain windows, as a floating panel, etc.) might be fairly
> simple, allowing third parties to extend the menu system in all
> of it's different modes might be a much larger challenge.

It could make it harder to write *new* utilities extending menus
or scroll bars in the new operating system, but it still could be
a reasonable idea to do.

On the other hand, I use both Macs and NeXTSTEP on a regular basis,
so I personally am not going to get too worked up about this.
Either "look" is fine with me, although if I did have a choice I
would go with the way NeXTSTEP is done.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign is missing
Date: 14 Mar 1997 08:41:47 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
Message-ID: <5gb30b$58u@leonie.object-factory.com>
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andreas@lynet.de wrote:
> In , 
herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) writes:
> >andreas@lynet.de,UseNet writes:
> >
> >>I've just tried to understand the sample-Project CurrencyConverter
> >
> >>of "Discovering OpenStep  A Developer Tutorial".
> >
> >>On Page 27 they want me to drag the NSReturnSign-Image from the
> >
> >>Images-Page to the Convert-Button on my Interface, but this image is
> >
> >>defenitivly missing. I reinstalled the DevoloperEnvironment two times
> >
> >>(nothing changed). I cannot find this Image that makes a Button being
> >
> >>activated, when the user presses Return, wich is very important, I 
suppose. 
> >
> >>So is this a bug.? If yes, how do I fix it?
> >
> >>Thanks in advance!
> >
> >
> >Not a bug in the software or installer, but rather in the documentation. 
The documentation was not very effectively updated from nextstep to openstep 
and there are several places where it is in error. Another example: the 
tutorials will tell you to select
> >various things from the "action" menu which the screen shots show as being 
diretly in one of the Interface builder windows. This menu does NOT exist. To 
build the files and to instantiate an object you will use the main menu 
instead and select the correct
> >commands from the Object menu.
> >
> >
> >BTW, don't worry about the return icon at all. Your button will still work 
quite well without it.
> >
> >
> Nice to hear, but what do I do, if I want the Button to be activated,
> when the user presses Return. Is this function currently not available?
> 
> Andreas

I don't understand the point in the discussion here. Making a eg. a TextField 
activate a button has nothing to do with the NSReturnSign. Just Control-drag 
from the TextFied to the button, in the Connection Inspector chose 
target->performClick:. That's it.

If you still miss the NSReturnSign image here's what I saved from the net 
some time ago:

Forwarded Article <97Jan31.112239gmt-0100.28679-1@mimer.upnet.se>
Newsgroup factory.ml.next-prog
>From Urban Nilsson 

For the NeXTmail impaired:

Hi,

the NSReturnSign seems to have been lost in OpenStep for Mach 4.1 (It
was in fact lost in the 4.0 beta but I assumed it would find it's way
home in the sharp release). I have been able to locate the image in the
file /usr/lib/NextStep/Resources/SharedGray.tiff, but the problem lies
within InterfaceBuilder, namely the file
InterfaceBuilder.app/Resources/images.table where the NSReturnSign
entry is missing. Just add the entry and everything works as it should.

Just our two cents,
Urban and Malte

---
Urban Nilsson, Oops Art: urban@oops.se, d7urban@dtek.chalmers.se,
un@cd.chalmers.se, d7urban@mdstud.chalmers.se
Hiroshima 45, Tjernobyl 86, Windows 95

Enjoy,

-dirk

---
______________________________________________________________________
Dirk Olmes      OBJECT FACTORY
                Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
                Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany
                Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0
                Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99
                dirk@object-factory.com
                http://www.object-factory.com/
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From: biesingert@asme.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Two-column Menus
Date: 14 Mar 1997 11:07:33 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Does anybody out there know how to handle a
Services Menu that has become too long i.e.
display it in two columns? What else could I do
when the lower part cannot be displayed within 
the screen area?

Much appreciate your comments, thanks!

Thomas


---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:17:59 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
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In article  maury@softarc.com  
(Maury Markowitz) writes:
>   I while back I bemoaned the lack of an integrated document class under
> OpenStep.

mmm documents...

This brings me back to something I haven't talked about for a while, and  
haven't heard mention with respect to Rhapsody:

E O F

EOF has been sadly mistargetted by NeXT. They've done well selling it to  
the corporate sector for big bucks (oftern on the back of web objects),  
but it has the potentiall to be the core of what documents should be under  
OpenStep.

Everyone has talked about the OO filestore - EOF can be that. It can be  
your document class, and so much more. It isn't about accessing an SQL db  
- its about using the power of that DB to support your app.

>   And is it reasonable to use Dictonaries and the persistence system for
> just about any compound file type?
The persistance system is flawed - you can only realy load objects back  
into the same object. Might sound sensible, but different apps may have  
differnt  ideas about how objects relate, different ops, and different  
derived varibles. The persistance system gives you no structure, when  
someone says "whats your file format?". To load it back, you need to use  
the code you used to save it in the first place.

EOF fixes that. It places the data in the DB, and extracts from it the  
objects as they are needed. Different objects can load the same data in  
different ways,  and different apps (by different programmes, without  
sharing code!) can access the data transparently.

The idea of the document is perhaps a poor abstraction. EOF frees you from  
the tight bounds that such a concept imposes - say a document is a list of  
people on a project, it then pulls in the info an all those people. If you  
have  a docuement on a different project it might be a new "document" but  
it shares the same people info. EOF deals with this. A document concept is  
equivalent to the card file database systems - they're long dead. EOF  
gives you relational documents (and its also dead easy!).

The question comes abck to - what are Apple going to do with it? I think  
it should be bundled with Rhapsody, and maybe a lightweight DB bundled as  
well (mSQL?).

$an

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From: dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: NEW and IMPROVED!  Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
Date: 14 Mar 1997 13:38:15 +0100
Organization: Posting Service
Message-ID: <199703141238.NAA06619@basement.replay.com>
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scottm@nic.com (Scott) wrote:

> In article <199703122344.PAA21362@sirius.infonex.com>,
> dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan) wrote:
> 
> >Web Site Revised 3/12/1997
> >
> >For the quickest, dirtiest Y2K solution,
> >check out the following web site:
> >http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/


> Why are you posting this in Mac groups? The Mac will handle the year 2000
> just fine. It was designed that way.


I will bet that there are Mac application programs out there that
accept date input in the format, MM/DD/YY.  Not only that, but these
same programs probably take the system date, convert it to YYMMDD
format, and store it that way thereby discarding the century information.

Dash Langan

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From: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Cannot free copies of an N3DShader object
Date: 14 Mar 1997 14:55:56 GMT
Organization: Ecole des Mines de Nantes
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
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Reply-To: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
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Keywords: N3DShader, free

Hi,

A simple test app crashes when calling the following method several times:

- freeAction:sender
{
	id 		theShader, cop, cop2;
	
	theShader=[[N3DShader alloc] init];
	[(N3DShader *)theShader setShader:"plastic"];
	
	cop = [theShader copy];
	cop2 = [cop copy];

	[cop free];
	[cop2 free];

	return self;
}

Freeing only cop or only cop2 is ok but freeing cop and cop2 causes the  
app to crash after a few number of -freeAction: calls.

Any clue ?


Laurent.

--
=======================================================
Laurent Champciaux
Departement Informatique - Ecole des Mines de Nantes
4, rue A.Kastler - BP 20722 - 44307 Nantes Cedex 03
Tel: 33 2 51 85 82 18 (B220)	email: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Fax : 33 2 51 85 82 49
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From: York Block 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign is missing
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:13:53 -0700
Organization: Maricopa Community Colleges
Lines: 66
Message-ID: 
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On 14 Mar 1997, Dirk Olmes wrote:

> andreas@lynet.de wrote:
> > In , 
> herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren) writes:
> > >andreas@lynet.de,UseNet writes:
> > >
> > >>I've just tried to understand the sample-Project CurrencyConverter
> > >
> > >>of "Discovering OpenStep  A Developer Tutorial".
> > >
> > >>On Page 27 they want me to drag the NSReturnSign-Image from the
> > >
> > >>Images-Page to the Convert-Button on my Interface, but this image is
> > >
> > >>defenitivly missing. I reinstalled the DevoloperEnvironment two times
> > >
> > >>(nothing changed). I cannot find this Image that makes a Button being
> > >
> > >>activated, when the user presses Return, wich is very important, I 
> suppose. 
> > >
> > >>So is this a bug.? If yes, how do I fix it?
> > >
> > >>Thanks in advance!
> > >
> > >
> > >Not a bug in the software or installer, but rather in the documentation. 
> The documentation was not very effectively updated from nextstep to openstep 
> and there are several places where it is in error. Another example: the 
> tutorials will tell you to select
> > >various things from the "action" menu which the screen shots show as being 
> diretly in one of the Interface builder windows. This menu does NOT exist. To 
> build the files and to instantiate an object you will use the main menu 
> instead and select the correct
> > >commands from the Object menu.
> > >
> > >
> > >BTW, don't worry about the return icon at all. Your button will still work 
> quite well without it.
> > >
> > >
> > Nice to hear, but what do I do, if I want the Button to be activated,
> > when the user presses Return. Is this function currently not available?
> > 
> > Andreas
> 
> I don't understand the point in the discussion here. Making a eg. a TextField 
> activate a button has nothing to do with the NSReturnSign. Just Control-drag 
> from the TextFied to the button, in the Connection Inspector chose 
> target->performClick:. That's it.
> 

The problem is not the NSReturnSign, it is the ability to press "Return"
and with that perform a "performClick"  to the button, so I don't have to 
use the mouse. Do you know what I mean?. It actually does not bother me
too much, there are so many things to learn and so many things that one
can do. It is just amazing. 


York 



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From: biesingert@asme.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: TickleServices
Date: 14 Mar 1997 17:46:39 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Trying to get Fiend into the LaunchPath as suggestion in
the manual; unfortunately, the documentation of TickleServices
does not give a hint on how to modify Workspace/Add To LaunchPaths

# Add an entry to the Workspace LaunchPaths default.

set filenames [filenames]
set launchpaths [split [defaults read Workspace LaunchPaths ""] ";"]
foreach filename $filenames {
    lappend launchpaths $filename
}
defaults write Workspace LaunchPaths [join $launchpaths ";"]

Do u know? Thanks.

Thomas


---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:43:01 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article , ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
wrote:

> The persistance system is flawed - you can only realy load objects back  
> into the same object. Might sound sensible, but different apps may have  
> differnt  ideas about how objects relate, different ops, and different  
> derived varibles. The persistance system gives you no structure, when  
> someone says "whats your file format?". To load it back, you need to use  
> the code you used to save it in the first place.

  Hmmm, so you'd have to hand out the nib too?

  In this case though that's not an issue for my application - I'm using a
private data type that I don't expect anyone else to be able to read, and
I'm going provide some simple stuff to write it to a tabbed text file if
that's what people need.

  Ok, I've been told the grid objects are going to have no problem with my
7000x50 item display - but what will the performance of the Dictonaries
with that much data in them be like?  Anyone using them as a simple
database out there?

  Still though, this sounds like the hole that Bento fills under the
OpenDoc system.  It's a text wrapper that describes the object format so
you can rebuild the objects in other programs.

> The idea of the document is perhaps a poor abstraction. EOF frees you from  
> the tight bounds that such a concept imposes - say a document is a list of  
> people on a project, it then pulls in the info an all those people. If you  
> have  a docuement on a different project it might be a new "document" but  
> it shares the same people info. EOF deals with this.

  Huh, that is handy.  I assume it doesn't _have_ to have a database
engine anywhere?

Maury
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From: Chris Marriott 
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: NEW and IMPROVED!  Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:57:07 +0000
Organization: SkyMap Software
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
References: <199703122344.PAA21362@sirius.infonex.com>
 
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In article , Scott
 writes
>Why are you posting this in Mac groups? The Mac will handle the year 2000
>just fine. It was designed that way.

The question is not whether the operating system will handle dates in
the 21st century and beyond (all modern operating systems will - even
DOS works fine up to 2038), but whether applications do. Many
applications store only the last two digits of the year, and they tend
to have problems beyod 1999.

Regards,

Chris

----------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Marriott, SkyMap Software, U.K. e-mail: chris@skymap.com
Creators of fine astronomy software for Windows.
For full details, visit our web site at http://www.skymap.com

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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: idle time in Workspace?
Date: 14 Mar 1997 10:48:45 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Lines: 27
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In article <5frq8t$n63@sps1.phys.vt.edu> nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan  
Urban) writes:
> Is there any programmatic way to determine how long a user has been idle
> (i.e., no mouse or keyboard events) in the Workspace?  I can use the
> standard Unix trick for getting idle times, but it only works if they've
> got a terminal open.

Under NEXTSTEP 3.x and OPENSTEP for Mach, you can use the Event Status  
Driver C API to do this.

#include 

double idleTime()
{
	double idle;
	NXEventHandle eventHandle;
	eventHandle = NXOpenEventStatus();
	idle = NXIdleTime(eventhandle);
	NXCloseEventStatus(eventHandle);
	return idle;
}

-- 
I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me.
mpaque@next.com		Official business only		NeXT Mail OK
mpaque@wco.com		Non-business or personal mail	NeXT mail OK

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From: Farshad Nayeri 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.modula3
Subject: Re: Platform independence, Java and Juice (Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?)
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:14:05 -0500
Organization: Critical Mass, Inc.
Lines: 51
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> >> Outside of academic users, who's even
> >> heard of Modula 3 or Oberon?
> >
> >DEC has heard of Modula3...   :-)
> >
> 
> Yes, but whenever anyone tells me about a great new DEC
> product, I think "Well, that's academic now."

Before this thread gets too far off from reality...

Modula-3 was designed by Digital Systems Research Center
(DEC SRC) and Olivetti Research Center in 1989. The language
definition is only 50 pages, but it includes support
for garbage collection, threads, exceptions, interfaces,
... Despite the fact that the language hasn't changed in 8
years or so, M3 programmer gets the equivalent support
as if they were programming in Java and C++. M3 has been 
used for the pasts 7-8 years for serious systems development 
around the world.

Modula-3 was not made into a product by DEC,
however, DEC SRC has been maitaining a source 
distribution of SRC implementation of Modula-3 
which is available to everyone free of charge. 

SRC Modula-3 is not only a compiler and runtime, but 
also a large collection of well designed, well-documented
tools and libraries for distributed computing, persistence, 
portable OS interfaces, portable windowing systems, ... 
SRC M3 runs on a number of platforms, including Windows, 
most Unix systems, including NeXT. See 

	http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/modula-3/html/

for more information, or post to news:comp.lang.modula3.

Reactor is a commercial distributed development 
environment which uses M3 at its core. It supports 
Windows and a varity of Unix platforms. See:

	http://www.cmass.com/reactor/

for more information about Reactor.

-- 
Farshad Nayeri           farshad@cmass.com
Critical Mass, Inc.      http://www.cmass.com
Cambridge, USA           +1 617 354 6277

Disclaimer: I am biased!
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From: jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 14 Mar 1997 11:37:04 -0000
Organization: I need to put my ORGANIZATION here.
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In article ,
Scott Hess  wrote:
>In article <5g69s3$eq5@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>,
>	jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) writes:
>
>I'd _much_ rather be targetting Linux.  Not going to happen (though I
>keep trying).  I'm just happy enough to be able to do most of the
>kernel development on NeXT's, leaving just the UI development on the
>target ...

In the future, I suspect that GNUStep and OpenStep will allow for
portability across Rhapsody/Windows/Linux.

Not yet, though.  Still, I could easily see where Apple could do well
in the educational market by targetting MkLinux to schools.

Odds are, though, that Apple will find it to expensive to maintain
to separate support streams, and will sell Rhapsody instead.

One nice compromise might be to migrate toward the Linux personality
from the BSD'ish personality.

>   >Success isn't that precise - there are few projects where success
>   >hinges on the incremental performance improvement of C++ over
>   >Objective-C for a given object hierarchy.
>
>   Depends on your market.
>
>I'd argue that it depends on your team's programming abilities, and
>the abilities of the team leaders and managers, along with the quality
>of the design.

That, too.  But it really depends first on your market.  If
your market will pay for the fastest possible, you could easily mix
and match.  If they won't, you are of course correct.

Which seems to be one of the reasons that the shrink wrap consumer stuff
is so slow and bloated. . . consumers aren't willing to pay the extra
for the necesary design/optimization costs.

>Most programs are performance losses not because of
>anything so simple as a faster message dispatch mechanism.  I'd argue
>that the message dispatch overhead is almost always so minor of a
>concern as to be irrelevant.

Message dispatching, so long as it remains secondary to a direct
function call, would be a minor slow down.  But the concern that
seemed to generate the thread was that all "old-style" function calls
would be replaced by the much slower Objective C style method
invocation.

>[Well, assuming someone put at least
>_half_ a thought into implementing it, of course :-).]

Yah.  There are times to send messages, and times to simply call a function
using the old fashioned, standard C way.  Objective C is, after all,
a C extension, not a whole new language.

>   Yah.  And in some respects, the CPU manafacturers owe a debt of
>   gratitude to programmers for copping that attitude.  If we, as
>   consumers *OR* producers took a different tack, the fastest CPU
>   might still only run at 75 MHz.
>
>Again, C++ versus Objective-C is not the difference between 75Mhz
>Pentiums and 200Mhz Pentiums.

Uh, no, that was simply a ramble, off topic, memory dump, what have you.

The combination of poor system design (really, most systems benefit
a lot more from getting a faster HDD subsystem, than a faster processor),
unrestrained featurism, "evolved" instead of designed OS'es (Windows 95
is slower than slow for precisely this reason, *WAY* to much overhead
from backwards compatibility kludges) and poor adherence to standards
are the primary reasons, not language choice.

>Besides, I said $100.  If you have to spend an extra $1000 to hit the
>sweet spot, you'd better have a _damn_ good reason why you can't just
>make the program more efficient.
>Converting from Objective-C to C++
>is not going to give you that kind of gain, though, you have to make
>algorithmic changes.  In my experience, Objective-C allows me to make
>those algorithmic changes more quickly than C++.

But the real issue is how much does it cost the company doing the production?

If using C++ costs you more time as a developer, that may very well have
little, or no impact on the bottom line, especially when you are spreading
development costs out over, say, a sales volume of 10 million units.

At that volume, an extra 100,000 in development costs wouldn't mean that
much.

>Not sure what you're saying, here.

Err, yah.  Ok, I got baroque for a second.  Try it this way: NC's are
the up and coming thing.  GUI's are the big time.  Everybody raves
about "wizards", bubble help and ballon help.  Now there is the MS
zero administration push. . .

All of which indicate that at least two *LARGE* parts of the market
want a lot *less* configurability and control.

>I could care less if third parties
>or users can plug into my project.

But the people who *buy* your product do care.  A *LOT*!

>I'm arguing that _I_ can plug into
>my project better with Objective-C than C++, and so can my other
>developers.  That _is_ a gain.

Yah.  But the implication (and, in fact, this has been illustrated) is
that other people (since Objective C has dynamic typing, binding and
loading support) can muck around with your program quite a bit, if you
let 'em.

That might well generate more support costs than you'd save, unless
you make it a point to control that.

John S.
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From: embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: 14 Mar 1997 21:33:04 GMT
Organization: Another Netscape News Server User
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>   Still though, this sounds like the hole that Bento fills under the
> OpenDoc system.  It's a text wrapper that describes the object format so
> you can rebuild the objects in other programs.
> 
> > The idea of the document is perhaps a poor abstraction. EOF frees you 
from  
> > the tight bounds that such a concept imposes - say a document is a list 
of  
> > people on a project, it then pulls in the info an all those people. If 
you  
> > have  a docuement on a different project it might be a new "document" but 
 
> > it shares the same people info. EOF deals with this.
> 

EOF is a great product, and it can simulate a OO file system.  Unfortunately, 
in order to scale EOF to the performance and reliability needed for a file 
system, $50,000.00 must be spent on an industrial strength database.  
Further, administration/distribution/licensing/support contracts make the 
database unsuitable for anything but a large vertical app.

I will not trust all of my data to OpenBase.  OpenBase is a fine product!  It 
is just not up to the task.
(Openbase is an inexpensive relational database with EOF support)

NSDictionaries start using virtual memory after some point.  As long as your 
data set fits in memory, NSDictionary performace will be great.  After that, 
a virtual memory tuned database will do a better job.  NSDictionary will keep 
working, it just gets slower.  NSDictionary has some maximum number of keys 
supported (I would gues arrounf 4 billion). That may limit some applications.



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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: TickleServices
Date: 14 Mar 97 16:43:39
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In-reply-to: biesingert@asme.org's message of 14 Mar 1997 17:46:39 GMT

In article <5gc2tv$dit@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk> biesingert@asme.org writes:
   Trying to get Fiend into the LaunchPath as suggestion in the
   manual; unfortunately, the documentation of TickleServices does not
   give a hint on how to modify Workspace/Add To LaunchPaths

   Do u know? Thanks.

I know!  I know!

You don't modify TickleServices to do it.  Instead, you install
TickleServices (just run TickleServices.app, it walks you through it),
then select the directory you want to add to the LaunchPaths in
Workspace, and select Services/Workspace/Add To LaunchPaths.  From
there, TickleServices runs that script you quoted:

   # Add an entry to the Workspace LaunchPaths default.

   set filenames [filenames]
   set launchpaths [split [defaults read Workspace LaunchPaths ""] ";"]
   foreach filename $filenames {
       lappend launchpaths $filename
   }
   defaults write Workspace LaunchPaths [join $launchpaths ";"]

Which gets the current LaunchPaths, adds the directories you
specified, and writes it back out.

Simple as pie :-),
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: kwong@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Kai S. Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: TickleServices
Date: 14 Mar 1997 23:06:17 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
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biesingert@asme.org writes:

>Trying to get Fiend into the LaunchPath as suggestion in
>the manual; unfortunately, the documentation of TickleServices
>does not give a hint on how to modify Workspace/Add To LaunchPaths

If you have Tickle Services running, go to Workspace menu:
Services->Workspace->Add To launch Path


that will add your Fiend to your launch path.


kai
-- 

Software Engineer
email:  kwong@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
url:	http://web.cs.mun.ca/~kwong/

PGP fingerprint <1B 67 F5 6C C4 44 4F 87  52 F7 61 C7 8E D0 36 40>
finger kwong@plato.ucs.mun.ca to get PGP public key.
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From: klui@hpcc01.corp.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 18:39:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Message-ID: <41930001@hpcc01.corp.hp.com>
Organization: the HP Corporate notes server
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dehoog@experts.com (John De Hoog) /  3:48 pm  Mar  2, 1997 /
>                                                       An offline
> reader in the land of metered phone calls is essential; even with a
> dedicated line

RE: offline readers, etc because you live in a country with metered
phone service.

Does metered service mean all calls are toll? Well, my ISDN service
is toll, too; but it's much more convenient and efficient for me to
do things online. I let my servers store important things so I don't
have to worry about backup, data recovery, etc. So, offline apps are
a nonissue--and a niche--for me.

It's certainly a personal preference, so I can see why you would
need to use it. I probably won't.


Ken
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From: dingbat@codesmiths.com (Andy Dingley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEW and IMPROVED!  Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 23:54:08 GMT
Organization: Codesmiths Software Development Ltd.
Message-ID: <3329e473.20218170@news.demon.co.uk>
References: <199703122344.PAA21362@sirius.infonex.com> 
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The moving finger of scottm@nic.com (Scott) having written:

>>For the quickest, dirtiest Y2K solution,
>>check out the following web site:

>>
>Why are you posting this in Mac groups? The Mac will handle the year 2000
>just fine. It was designed that way.

Don't you mean because the _NeXT_ was designed that way ?.....


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From: sanjeev@ee.umr.edu (Sanjeev Agarwal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help: (Driver Kit...)
Date: 15 Mar 1997 10:42:05 GMT
Organization: UMR Missouri's Technological University
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Hi,
I was trying to write a Device Driver for EPIX frame grabber
card under NextStep 3.2. My problem is that when ever I try to
open the port, and if the video signal is not present at the 
port (camera is not powered on) the system hangs. Is there any
way I could time this out. I mean if the port is not available
(not powered) just don't open it!! Any pointer on this will be
helpful. 
Thank you very much for your time ...

Sanjeev

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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep on Java and Newton
Date: 14 Mar 1997 18:34:16 GMT
Organization: mother.com Internet Services
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I've been reading Jerry Kaplan's book "Startup" which traces the history of
his GO corporation (I highly recommend it).  The book includes a 1988
e-mail message by Bill Gates to his staff following his trip to GO.  In
Gate's analysis section, he says, "The software layers should be more
compatible with desktop stuff."

Today we see Microsoft with its Windows CE [1] which apparently brings the
windows environment to hand held and embedded systems.  Furthermore,
Microsoft in courting Motorola, Advanced RISC Machines (ARM), and Digital
(StrongARM) to provide systems for Windows CE [2].  Finally, because CE
development is bases on a subset of the Win32 API [3], Microsoft can easily
tap a large pool of experienced Windows programmers.

Having said all this... Should Apple try to move OpenStep (or at least a
subset) to the Newton?  Is it technically feasible?  Would it be
commercially a smart idea?

In a similar line of thought... What are Apple's (NeXT's) plans (if any) to
bring the OpenStep API to Java?

[1] http://www.microsoft.com/windowsce/default.asp
[2] http://www.microsoft.com/corpinfo/PRESS/1996/Dec96/CPULSTPR.htm
[3] http://www.microsoft.com/windowsce/hpc/developer/default.htm
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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Mach, WindowServer, and Sprockets??
Date: 15 Mar 1997 01:29:49 GMT
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Apparently, Apple will be essentially phasing out Game Sprockets.  I guess
they have their reasons, but I do believe games will help Apple move
machines, especially in the home market.  To this end, I was thinking of
GameOS or "Sprockets for Mach."

GameOS would consist of the Sprockets API and code libraries sitting
directly on top of NeXT's Mach kernel.  When booting in GameOS, NeXT's
WindowServer would not be started (a Sprockets window server would be
started instead); however, most of the other kernel features would be
available (file system, networking, multitasking, memory protection, etc.).

If Sprockets is developed in a higher level language (not assembly code)
which can be recompiled for other hardware, GameOS could be available on
Intel hardware as well (Mach is already there).  This would help create a
larger market for game makers: write to the Sprockets API and deliver on
PowerPC and Intel platforms.

Furthermore, by avoiding the full WindowServer and Rhapsody's Yellow Box
code/overhead, the GameOS might be faster than developing games for the
full Rhapsody.  Also, since Mach and Sprockets would be completely native
PowerPC code, the system would appear much faster than the current MacOS.

Would this be technically feasible?

Can NeXT's WindowServer be circumvented?

How much work would be needed for a GameOS-based windows server?

Would there be a market for GameOS?

Thanks,

Todd

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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Cyrillic in OPENSTEP/Mach
Date: 14 Mar 1997 20:08:35 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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  Have anyone managed to display Cyrillic text in KOI-8 encoding
 under NeXT OS ? I installed russian fonts from peanuts, but
 switching them on does not result in correct text display. I
 guess, it is mapping problem.

 Can one convert X fonts into NeXT fonts ?


 Thanks,
 Michael


-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Good Introduction to OpenStep-Programming
Date: 15 Mar 1997 18:41:23 GMT
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> Is there a good introduction to Objective-C
> and the Objects Framework from a third party?

There is a new book titles "Designing Business Applications with OpenStep"
which supposedly covers background material (e.g., objective C) as well. 
For a good description of the book, check out [1].

I have also used "NeXTSTEP Programming.  Step One: Object-Oriented
Applications" by Garfinkel and Mahoney and "Developing NeXTSTEP
Applications" by Gene Backlin.  Both are fine, but they are a little out of
date since many of the API names changed with the conversion to OpenStep
(from NEXTSTEP).  If you only get one, I would recommend the Garfinkel
book.

For Objective C, I have the book "Objective-C. Object-Oriented Programming
Techniques" by Pinson and Wiener.  Unfortunately, I am not all that
thrilled with the book.

Todd

[1] http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books/DBAO_preface.html

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From: dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: 1,500 Job Openings.  Hey, That's Good!  No, That's Bad!
Date: 15 Mar 1997 17:20:33 +0100
Organization: Posting Service
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Don't listen to those stock analysts who are telling you to buy
the stock of companies which are expected to supply labor for the
Y2K effort.

You see, if a consulting firm has 1,500 job openings, as was reported
on the Internet, you can be assured that its competitor across the
street has a similar number of job openings.  Now, nobody is going
to educate himself in computer programming for a job that is
temporarily arising out of the Y2K crisis, so there will be no
increase in the supply of available programmers.  With this being
the case, what can you expect to see?

The first company will have to advertise heavily to stabilize its
staffing level after the competitor across the street raids its
labor pool.  Without this advertising, the first competitor would
see a net DECREASE of 1,500 in its head count NOT any increase.
Hundreds of thousands of dollars will be spent on advertising
just to remain stably in place.

There is yet another dimension to this to consider.  With employers
raiding each other, they will have to bid compensation rates upward.
This will mean smaller profit margins.   With smaller profit margins
and much higher advertising expenses you will see overall lower
profits or even losses.  Many smaller players in the market will
simply go out of business.  Look to the stock of the newspapers which
will profit on the advertising activity if you must look to anything.

The message to consulting firms is this:  "Not to worry.  There is
hope."  All that need be done is to minimize the impact of the Y2K
issue.  This can be accomplished easily by adopting the "Open and
Shut Window Technique" as the primary official Y2K solution.  This
will make your traumatic period of Y2K exposure as short and as
painless as possible.

The url of the "Open and Shut Window Technique is:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

Dash Langan

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Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:51:20 -0600
From: dbriggs@flowserver.stem.com
Subject: Re: Good Introduction to OpenStep-Programming
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <858458642.9226@dejanews.com>
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In article <5g9cru$77n$1@lynet.de>,
  andreas@lynet.de wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm going to develop software for OpenStep.
> I tried the Online-Docu and the printed
> Next-Books, but I find them little hard to get
> through.
> Is there a good introduction to Objective-C
> and the Objects Framework from a third party?
>
> Andreas

Andreas, I can recommend a book:

[1] Developing Business Applications with OpenStep,
    by Nik Gervae and Peter Clark, Springer,
    ISBN 0-387-94852-X (289 pages).

    I've not finished it yet, but I like it so far.
    It has a chapter on the Foundation framework,
    and another on the AppKit. It also has chapters on:
      OpenStep/Solaris, OpenStep/NT,
      PDO, EOF,
      testing, debugging, and performance.
    It devotes just 13 pages to Objective-C, but then
    Next's on-line documentation is only about 30 pages.
    As these authors say, learning OpenStep development
    is less about learning Objective-C than about learning
    the classes of the Foundation and AppKit.
    This book speaks more to the implementer than to
    the analyst or designer.

You might also consider:

[2] OpenStep for Enterprises, by Nancy Craighill,
    Wiley Computer Publishing
    ISBN 0-471-30859-5 (245 pages).

    This book also has only 13 pages on Objective-C,
    but concentrates mostly on OO Analysis & Design
    methodology. It comes with a disk containing
    source code for a client/server pair of small
    demo applications. Whereas many books on OOA/OOD
    seem really to have only C++ in mind, this one
    maps popular notation onto Objective-C.

    The demo apps support a design method called
      "Classes-Responsibilities-Collaborators",
    or CRC, and you might find the example code
    more useful, since it comes with a discussion
    of the analysis and design that motivates it.
    The demo apps work, but I don't use them.

    Good luck,
         Don



-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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From: cavery@dc.net (Christopher Avery)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Perl
Date: 15 Mar 1997 20:52:48 GMT
Organization: Posted via CAIS Internet 
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I downloaded the Perl Package from ftp-next-peak but it wouldn't install.  
Instaed it said not all the programs in the package were in the package and I 
should install from the original floppies.  Can anyone help with this?

Thanks - and please email me the answer.
-- 

    ----  Christopher Avery  -----
 
reply to:cavery@dc.net   (NeXTMail accepted)
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From: embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Sun was Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 15 Mar 1997 23:58:11 GMT
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	<5fd190$a7f@lal.interserv.com>  
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In <5g6v6n$ksp@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck wrote:
> Sun just made a major presentation at our site.  There were at least 20 
sales 
> people and some Sun executives.  I asked about Openstep and they asked (who 
> sells that ?)  When I told them that they sell it, they told me they did 
not 
> think so.
> 
> I guess that Sun is not interested in Openstep anymore.
> 
> 
I have just been notified by a Sun executive that OpenStep is alive and well 
and a new release is planned.

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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <7353857885137@digifix.com>
Date: 16 Mar 1997 05:00:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 347
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
Message-ID: <608858488427@digifix.com>
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.

 Archives are available by ftp at

 ftp://ftp.stepwise.com/pub/Next_Announce_Archives

 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 04:35:39 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <5gd8ve$2um@lal.interserv.com>
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> <33190835.19824536@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com> <332192A6.313D@online.disney.com> <5g0t0o$sb8@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <5g1u1g$q7n$3@news.xmission.com> <3324A35D.6FEC@sequent.com> <3324c889.576749@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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In <<3324c889.576749@nntp.ix.netcom.com>>, 
apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) wrote:


>It's not as fast as some coders hope. Java, as a language, takes
>some performance hits because of the amount of validation it
>does on method invocations etcetera. 

	Also, due to the fact that every object is allocated on the free
store, and must be accessed indirectly.  (ie, Java got rid of
pointers, by making everything a pointer)

>But most people will still find it acceptable for almost every
>application  (James "Truth"  Curran is, of course, free to disagree).

	Hardly "almost every application".  Most like, "almost every
application in the limited range it's been used on so far".  On apps
with heavy user interaction (eg, WWW based apps) the limiting speed
factor is human response time. The processing speed of the program it
self matters little. (*)  However, no one's going to be writing
Mathematica or any other processor heavy app in Java anytime soon.

(*) Side note --- That statement is true now, but will become less so
in the future as NetworkComputers become popular and even less so, as
more codein put  into embedded processors in household appliances.
For NCs, the goal would be to make the machine as cheap as possible,
which means slower CPUs.  For applicances, the same 10X.  Note that if
a manufacturer of a microwave oven (for example) with an 1,000,000
unit production run can shave 5 cents off the cost of each one, that's
$50,000 --- which will pay a programmer for a year as he finds a way
to make the code fast enough as that they can use a 5 cent per unit
cheaper CPU.



	
       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 05:23:56 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <5gdbq0$3p1@lal.interserv.com>
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> <5fcngp$7dd@lal.interserv.com> <331f6ea2.1358032@nntp.ix.netcom.com>  <5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>
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In <<5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov>>, 
jstevens@ftc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Stevens) wrote:


>Use C++ where fast OO is needed, use C for the stuff that has to run
>quite literally as fast as possible, and use Objective C where speed
>is of little or no importance (distributed objects and GUI work, for
>instance. . .).

	First of all, there absolutely no reason why C++ code would be slower
that C code,  and in many cases, (such as the templated sort function
described elsewhere in this thread), the easy C++ solution would be
faster than the easy C solution (qsort()), and no slower then the
difficult C solution (hand coded specific sort function).    So, we
can use C++ where speed is critical, and ObjC  on the GUIs where the
limiting speed factor is human response. OK, so what about the rest...
where program speed is the limiting factor, but it's not really
critical?  C++ or ObjC? 

	The other interesting thing to note is that C++ can simulate the
run-time binding of ObjC.  C++ can overload the [] operator:

	typedef	void * id;
	typdef	id (ObjCmethod)(id, va_list)
	class objCobj
	{
	public:
  		  id operator[](enum selector, ....) 
		{
			va_list	marker;
			va_start(markerm selector);
			 ObjCmethod	f = dispatch(this, selector);
			id ret = f(this, marker);	
			return(ret);
		}
				
		id operator[](string methodname, ...)
		{	enum selector  sel = selector_lookup(methodname);
			(*this)[selector]
		}
	};

	And there after, any object derived from class objCobj could be used
as:

	myRect[setOrigin, 30.0, 50.00];     or
	myRect["setOrigin", 30.0, 50.0];  or even

	doIt(id obj, string meth)
	{
		(*obj)[meth];
	}

	which would be the equilevants of the ObjC:

	[myRect setOrigin:30.0 :50.0];      and

	SEL sel = sel_getUid("setOrigin");
	[myRect perform:sel withObject:30.0 withObject:50.0];	   and

	doIt(id obj, char *meth)
	{
		SEL set = getUid(meth);
		[obj perform:sel];
	}

	And depending on the effeciency of selector_lookup() & dispatch(),
which are essentially the same functions as ObjC provides, these
functions could be performed with roughly the same effeciency as ObjC.
Futher, the same myRect object could also respond to
myRect.setOrigin(30.0, 50.0);  at the full normal C++ speed. 

(OK, it'll need a bit more code to pull this off:  a table for
seletor_lookup to lookup in, an enum of all the selectors, a table
mapping the selectors for a class to the function that handles that
message, and probably a wrapper function which redirects that
parameters:
	ObjCRectSetOrigin(Rect r, va_list l)
	{	double	p1 = va_arg(l, double);
		double	p2 = va_arg(l, double);
		return(r.setOrigin(p1, p2));
	}
BUT -- all of this could be easily be machine generated from standard
C++ code --- It is in fact very much like what the ClassWizard of
Microsoft VisualC++ does)

		
(Sorry about rambling on so long with C++ code, but I wanted to show
that I had thought about this process at length)


       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 06:01:03 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <5gddvj$4f5@lal.interserv.com>
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In <>, 
Charles William Swiger  wrote:


>I believe the OPENSTEP standard is being submitted to one of the
>industry standards groups like OMG or X/Open.

	Not quite the same.  They would just administor the OpenStep version
of ObjC.  The ISO/ANSI committee has been C++ throught a meat grinder,
making sure that it runs at top speed on _EVERY_ conceivable platform,
while retaining strict type safety, 

>You mean the standard that _might_ have been voted on today?  Well, in
>that case, up until _VERY_ recently, the C++ version has required more
>maintainance effort than the Obj-C version has.

	The function has been in the "draft" standard for three years now.
It's part of a package the HP has made freely availabe for about 7
years.

>Okay, so?  If you've got to access the ivar through a member function in
>both C++ and Obj-C, we aren't comparing the speed of doing four or so
>integer operations with a couple of Obj-C method dispatches, now are we?
> We're comparing the speeds of C++ method dispatches versus Obj-C
>dispatches.

	No, we ARE comparing the speed of doing four or so integer operations
with a couple of ObjC method dispatches.  You are missing the point.
In C++ a member function can be inlined.  ie, I can write:
	x = y;
and the compiler will see that as:
	x.realval = y.realval;
and generate the code appropriately.  That is what is possible with
early binding, and what you have to give up if you insist that it's
not real OOP unless it's late-bound.

>It sorts them in N-log-N time with the same algorithmic worst-case
>performance that the C++ sort function provides.  The difference between
>even the speed of Obj-C message dispatches compared to even direct
>integer operations is a constant factor.

	Not exactly..... O(n) here is n log n, as you state.  But, O()
notation states that the time an O(x) function takes is c * x + k.
Given a large enough x, the k becomes irrelevant. But, we aren't
talking about the k here, but the c, which becomes more relevant as x
grows.



>[ ... ]
>>         With C++,  you must give up some theortic OOD concepts (mainly,
>> late-binding), but still use a single sort function which takes a
>> generic collection of generic objects and sorts them very quickly
>> through compile-time binding, without the application programmer
>> having to know any of the objects or collections implementation
>> details.

>That's right.  However, my own experience suggests that most of the
>time, I'll either require the flexibility of the dynamic dispatch and
>late binding of Obj-C, or else I'm dealing with some data structure
>which has a critical impact on the performance of the system, and I'll
>end up writing a little hand-tuned code anyways.

	In my experience, very few places "require" dynamic dispatch, and
those that do can be implemented in C++; and with careful writing (and
inlining) of the basic class operation, the compiler generated
higher-level functions (from templates) are as efficent as completely
hand-tuned code (and much easier to write & mantain)

>That's right-- I don't believe in designing objects under the assumption
>that they will never be subclassed.  Comparing C++ virtual dispatches to
>the fully dynamic Obj-C method dispatches is a fair comparison.

	I think this is where Obj-C shows it that its really sired from
SmallTalk rather that C.  In SmallTalk and ObjC, everything derives
with one top-level object, and that encourages subclass anything that
moves.  I remeber, when I was writing my first SmallTalk program,
deriving "RandomNumber" from "Number".  It seemed to make sense at the
time....   (I stand by my assertion that in the real world, most
non-abstract classes are not subclassed)

>Sure, but you can achieve the same exact thing with Obj-C by memoizing
>the function implementation associated with a method and calling that
>directly, or by dereferencing an ivar directly from the structure
>instead of using an accessor function.
	Yes, but the former method is not a language feature, but an ugly,
burdensome workaround for a language failing, and the latter method
violates encapsulation, and would cause real world problems in the
objects implemention were to change.
	

       Truth,
       James

####################################################################
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 06:05:30 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
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Message-ID: <5gde7t$4f5@lal.interserv.com>
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In <<5g0apb$a@news.ml.com>>, 
necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:

>>I believe the equilvant ObjC code (in it's simple, obvious form) would
>>be something along the lines of:
>>	if ( [x lessthan: y] )
>>	{
>>	   T t;
>>	      [t init:x];
>>	      [x copyfrom:y]
>>	      [y copyfrom:t]
>>	}
>>
>>       Truth,
>>       James

>Well you'd be wrong.  At least I developed a system in C++ and bothered to 
>learn the language and its idioms before I decided it was total shitte.  I'd 
>suggest you learn about Objective-C before condemning it.  If I knew as 
>little about Objective-C as you seem to, I wouldn't want to use it either.

	Touchy, aren't we?  OK, I got it wrong IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE,
where the code would be more like
	if ( [x lessthan: y] )    // or [x compare:y] 
	{
	   id  t; = x;
	       x =y;
	      y = t;
	}

Nevertheless, there are cases where you DO need a deep copy, and WOULD
require a method like the copyfrom I cited above.....



       Truth,
       James

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From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>  <5g0sr9$sak@samoyed.ftc.nrcs.usda.gov> <5gdbq0$3p1@lal.interserv.com>
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In article <5gdbq0$3p1@lal.interserv.com>,
James M. Curran  wrote:

	[Example of C++ implementation of Objective-C runtime dispatch...]	

	Alternative possibility:

        typedef void * id;
        typedef id (ObjCmethod)(id, va_list)

class ObjCObj {

protected:
	// Functions for managing the dispatch table;
	// Give each function to be added some name to refer to it with
	void ClearDispatchTable();
	bool InstallDispatch(char *MethodName, ObjCMethod Method);
	bool RemoveDispatch(char *MethodName);

	// Just in case...
	virtual void UnknownMethodID(int MethodID) {}

public:

	// In case one wants to remember what one had resolved...
	ObjCMethod DispatchMethod(char *MethodName);

	// Imitation of ObjC's use of []
	id operator[](char *MethodName, ) {
		
		ObjCMethod Method = DispatchMethod(MethodName);
		return ObjCMethod(this,);
	}
};
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html


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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 13:01:38 -0500
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 15-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
>> Okay, so?  If you've got to access the ivar through a member function in
>> both C++ and Obj-C, we aren't comparing the speed of doing four or so
>> integer operations with a couple of Obj-C method dispatches, now are we?
>> We're comparing the speeds of C++ method dispatches versus Obj-C
>> dispatches.
>  
>      No, we ARE comparing the speed of doing four or so integer operations
> with a couple of ObjC method dispatches.  You are missing the point.
> In C++ a member function can be inlined.  ie, I can write:
>         x = y;
> and the compiler will see that as:
>         x.realval = y.realval;
> and generate the code appropriately.

Wrong-- you aren't copying the objects x and y by doing that, you're
just exchanging one of their ivars.  And if that's all you want to do,
you can code the exact same thing in Obj-C with the same four or so
integer operations and get the same performance you'd get from C++.

However, if you're not going to break encapsulation, you have to access
ivars through method dispatch instead of directly.  Ie, you have to call
[x realval] or x.realval() to get that value since you have to do some
type of calculation in order to compute the response instead of simply
returning a ivar from a structure.

Under Obj-C, it's common for you to possibly have many implementations
of the -realval method (different subclasses might override it, or you
might add a category or do a poseAs, etc).  You can't inline the method
implementation at compile time if you're going to deal with objects
which interact at runtime.  And, to compare the equivalent under C++,
you're talking about using virtual functions with those templates of
yours you keep advocating, which means you end up creating intermediate
classes.

> That is what is possible with early binding, and what you have to give up
> if you insist that it's not real OOP unless it's late-bound.

That's exactly right.  You're not really doing OOP if you break
encapsulation, now are you?

Let's acknowledge that if you want to break encapsulation, and do
binding at compile time, that it would be faster than dynamic binding. 
However, I already demonstrated that you can break encapsulation under
Obj-C and get the exact same performance you could get from C++, which
was +/- four integer ops for our comparison.

James, you try to keep comparing compile-time binding under C++ to
dynamic binding under Obj-C, and it's simply not a reasonable
comparision because you can do compile-time binding under Obj-C and get
the same exact code as you would from C++.

>>It sorts them in N-log-N time with the same algorithmic worst-case
>>performance that the C++ sort function provides.  The difference between
>>even the speed of Obj-C message dispatches compared to even direct
>>integer operations is a constant factor.
>  
>         Not exactly..... O(n) here is n log n, as you state.  But, O()
> notation states that the time an O(x) function takes is c * x + k.

Right.  c is the constant factor which represents the difference in
speed between the two.  k is the overhead associated with setting up the
algorithm and is independent of x.

> Given a large enough x, the k becomes irrelevant. But, we aren't
> talking about the k here, but the c, which becomes more relevant as x
> grows.

No, it doesn't.  For two O(n-log-n) algorithms, the performance will be
very nearly c1 * ( n * log(n)) + k1 and c2 * (n * log(n)) + k2.  There's
possibly other factors for the partial products of the n-log-n term, but
they would change the algorithmic behavior.

The two algorithms will have approximately a performance differance of
(c1/c2) when n is large enough that k1 and k2 don't matter, but that is
a constant factor-- which is the same algorithmic performance.

>> That's right-- I don't believe in designing objects under the assumption
>> that they will never be subclassed.  Comparing C++ virtual dispatches to
>> the fully dynamic Obj-C method dispatches is a fair comparison.
>  
>         I think this is where Obj-C shows it that its really sired from
> SmallTalk rather that C.  In SmallTalk and ObjC, everything derives
> with one top-level object, and that encourages subclass anything that
> moves.

Isn't it odd how the class hierachies I've seen from C++ tend to be
horribly overbloated with intermediate classes and so forth, whereas
Obj-C class hierachies tend to use categories, protocols, and
forwarding/delegation to avoid creating unnecessary classes.

Just take a look at the Taligent classes (or CommonPoint, or whatever
it's called now)....

>> Sure, but you can achieve the same exact thing with Obj-C by memoizing
>> the function implementation associated with a method and calling that
>> directly, or by dereferencing an ivar directly from the structure
>> instead of using an accessor function.
>
>         Yes, but the former method is not a language feature, but an ugly,
> burdensome workaround for a language failing, and the latter method
> violates encapsulation, and would cause real world problems in the
> objects implemention were to change.

Yep-- it's not graceful, it's not pretty, it violates encapsulation, and
it's much harder to maintain.

Very reminiscent of C++ code, come to think of it....

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: brianw@sounds.wa.com (Brian Willoughby)
Subject: Source code for Mandelbrot.app
Message-ID: 
Organization: Sound Consulting, Bellevue, WA, USA
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:53:30 GMT
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Hello all long time NEXTSTEP programmers:

Could someone package up the Mandelbrot.app source code from NEXTSTEP 2.2
(or later, if there is a more recent version) and send it to me?  I have a
license for NEXTSTEP 2.1 through OPENSTEP 4.2, including all upgrades, but
my earliest CD is NEXTSTEP 3.0, and my NEXTSTEP 2.x optical disks don't
seem to be working at the moment.  The only thing I have left are the
listings of what is on those opticals, so I know that you should be able to
find this in /NextDeveloper/Examples/Mandelbrot, I am particularly looking
for the sources which use the DSP for computational acceleration.

Basically, I would like to try some of the new optimized computations on
the DSP.  While the MandelView.BackModule algorithm is much faster than
other code running on the 68040, it's still no match for the DSP.

Thanks in advance, and I sure hope that someone else who has been around
in the NEXTSTEP arena as long as I have has managed to keep better backups
of the 2.x releases.

Later,
-- 
Brian Willoughby	NEXTSTEP and OpenStep Software Design Engineer
Sound Consulting	Bellevue, WA
BrianW@SoundS.WA.com	NeXTmail welcome
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From: Dave Griffiths 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:08:49 GMT
Organization: Primitive Software Ltd.
Message-ID: <1997Mar16.160849.1568@prim.demon.co.uk>
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>In <<3324c889.576749@nntp.ix.netcom.com>>, 
>apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso) wrote:
>
>>It's not as fast as some coders hope. Java, as a language, takes
>>some performance hits because of the amount of validation it
>>does on method invocations etcetera. 

Don't confuse Java the language with the Java virtual machine. You can write
your programs in Java and then use a Java to C translator and have them run
almost as fast as C programs. As for the Java VM, that validation only needs
to be done the first time the method is executed. At that point you can JIT
compile the bytecodes to native assembler and after that it will run very
fast.

Another thing is that Sun have focussed very much on Java in Web browsers.
They _say_ the Java VM has to do all these bytecode verifier checks, but so
what? If you want to use Java for "normal" development, then you could use an
implementation of the Java VM that only does minimal bytecode verification.

Dave

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From: lph@sei.cmu.edu (Larry Howard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Samba port for NS 3.3?
Date: 16 Mar 1997 20:50:54 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
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Sorry if this is a FAQ.  Thought I'd just check before looking
at the current Samba distribution.  Any porting experiences
welcome.

Thanks.
--
Larry Howard
Software Engineering Institute, Carnegie Mellon University
lph@sei.cmu.edu (NeXTmail/MIME)     (412) 268-6397
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From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> 
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:01:19 GMT
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In article ,
Charles William Swiger   wrote:

>Isn't it odd how the class hierachies I've seen from C++ tend to be
>horribly overbloated with intermediate classes and so forth, whereas
>Obj-C class hierachies tend to use categories, protocols, and
>forwarding/delegation to avoid creating unnecessary classes.

>Just take a look at the Taligent classes (or CommonPoint, or whatever
>it's called now)....

	I note in passing that the BeOS succeeds in having a relatively 
simple set of C++ classes -- and does so by using "BMessages" -- message 
objects that are sort of like AppleEvents made simple. It's all explained 
in the "Be Book", available online at http://www.be.com
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html


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From: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Component Software for Rhapsody
Date: 17 Mar 1997 01:17:08 GMT
Organization: The University of Texas at Austin, Austin, Texas
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Hi All-

    The decision to strand OpenDoc with the current MacOS begs several
questions about the future of component software on the Mac.  Though we
won't have concrete answers to these questions until Apple clarifies
this portion of the Rhapsody plan, I thought I'd seek a few opinions on
the decision and the future.

    First, what is NeXT's current approach to component software?  Since
component software seems a natural extention of the object orientation NeXT
is famous for, I'm surprised we've heard nothing about any NeXT component 
technology.  How does one implement component software and document centered 
computing in OpenStep?

    Second, what reasons prompted Apple to drop OpenDoc from Rhapsody in
favor of JavaBeans?  Besides the obvious cross platform advantages of 
JavaBeans, what would prompt Apple to drop the more mature and better 
supported OpenDoc (whose cross-platform support was admittedly wavering) 
in favor of a nascent technology from another party?  Are there technical 
problems integrating OpenDoc (DSOM?) with OpenStep?  Was Apple sick of
depending on IBM for cross platform support?  Is Apple hoping for better
developer support for JavaBeans after the pitiful support offered by
large developers for OpenDoc?

    Third, can JavaBeans based components hope to compete performance-wise
with native monolithic apps.  Does JavaBeans allow for native, non-Java,
compiled components?  If not, how does one overcome the significant penalties 
in performance which virtual machines and emulation impose?  Even with JITs,
performance of non-native code trails that of compiled binaries significantly.
While this might not matter for UI features or Internet applets, it is a 
significant limitation for computationally intensive tasks.

    Hopefully your answers will shed light on the future of component
software, an area which I think has great promise, even if it has thus
far failed to bear fruit.
						Raph

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 16 Mar 1997 20:15:14 -0800
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	<331f6ea2.1358032@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
	
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In article <5gdbq0$3p1@lal.interserv.com> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) writes:

   The other interesting thing to note is that C++ can simulate the
   run-time binding of ObjC.  C++ can overload the [] operator:
   [... proposal deleted ...]
   BUT -- all of this could be easily be machine generated from standard
   C++ code --- It is in fact very much like what the ClassWizard of
   Microsoft VisualC++ does)

"All of this" could also be easily machine generated "from standard C
code".  In fact, when you do that, you get Objective-C, because that's
what Objective-C used to be: a simple preprocessor together with a
runtime library that added a particularly flexible form of runtime
binding to ANSI C.  As the implementations matured, the new syntax
was then added directly to C compilers.

A lot of success and failure in the software world is determined by
perceptions and marketing.  Objective-C is perceived as a different
language from its base language, while COM and similar systems are
perceived as extensions to an existing language.  But whether you call
it a new language or an extension, the fact remains that both roughly
do the same thing and that Objective-C does it more parsimoniously.

Thomas.
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From: Robert La Ferla 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on Java and Newton
Date: 17 Mar 1997 04:27:40 GMT
Organization: HTI
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <5gih7s$dl6@news2.cais.com>
References: <01bc309d$0f9f0610$612168cf@test1>
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On 03/14/97, "L. Todd Heberlein" wrote:
>Should Apple try to move OpenStep (or at least a
>subset) to the Newton?  Is it technically feasible?  Would it be
>commercially a smart idea?

I definitely think it would be a commercially smart idea to provide 
some degree of compatibility between OPENSTEP and NewtonOS.  I can 
envision many mission critical and shrinkwrap applications that could 
be extended past the desktop to a handheld PDA.  Integrating Java into 
OPENSTEP and NewtonOS would make this all very possible.  In it's 
simplest form, Newton users could use a Java-enabled web browser to 
access OPENSTEP/Java applets.  OPENSTEP/NewtonOS for Windows CE 
systems would also be a good idea.  I don't think Apple wants to 
repeat the mistakes it's made with the proprietary Mac hardware.

BTW - If you are an OPENSTEP user/developer and haven't looked at the 
new Newton MP2000 and Newton OS 2.1, I strongly encourage you to do 
so.  It is an amazing user platform.  For my non-developer tasks, I 
find it indispensible.  The new MP2000 is going to be a very 
successful device.  For more info, be sure to check out 
http://newton.info.apple.com/newton/newton.html

-- 
Robert La Ferla
Registered OPENSTEP/Rhapsody Consultant
HTI
Boston, MA - Washington, DC
+ 1 (617) 252-0088

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From: Robert La Ferla 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mach, WindowServer, and Sprockets??
Date: 17 Mar 1997 04:18:16 GMT
Organization: HTI
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Is this really necessary?  It may be more effective to create object 
frameworks for games.  There is one that already exists called 
GameKit.  BTW - Did you know that Id Software wrote Doom on NEXTSTEP 
first?  Look at http://www.omnigroup.com/Software for details.

-- 
Robert La Ferla
Registered OPENSTEP/Rhapsody Consultant
HTI
Boston, MA - Washington, DC
+ 1 (617) 252-0088

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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mach, WindowServer, and Sprockets??
Date: 16 Mar 1997 22:20:44 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Lines: 38
Sender: mpaque@mpaque
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5ginrs$d1@mpaque.mpaque>
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In article <01bc30d7$2154aab0$452168cf@test1> "L. Todd Heberlein"  
 writes:
> GameOS would consist of the Sprockets API and code libraries sitting
> directly on top of NeXT's Mach kernel.  When booting in GameOS, NeXT's
> WindowServer would not be started (a Sprockets window server would be
> started instead); however, most of the other kernel features would be
> available (file system, networking, multitasking, memory protection,  
etc.).

This is a rather heavyweight switch, analogous to the Win95 'Restart in  
DOS' switching.  Running such a game requires you to quit all other apps  
and effectively reboot.

It also requires game developers to manage initialization, configuration,  
and formatting all possible display hardware directly.  This is a larger  
task than you might think.

Fortunately, there is a better answer.

> 
> Furthermore, by avoiding the full WindowServer and Rhapsody's Yellow Box
> code/overhead, the GameOS might be faster than developing games for the
> full Rhapsody.  Also, since Mach and Sprockets would be completely native
> PowerPC code, the system would appear much faster than the current MacOS.

The code/overhead you are referring to is a very broad, complete, and fast  
set of software that provides device independence, easier programming, and  
a fairly complete set of UI elements.  You can ignore it at the expense of  
doing it yourself, with all the problems that come along with it.

> Can NeXT's WindowServer be circumvented?

There is a better answer.
-- 
I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me.
mpaque@next.com		Official business only		NeXT Mail OK
mpaque@wco.com		Non-business or personal mail	NeXT mail OK

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mach, WindowServer, and Sprockets??
Date: 17 Mar 1997 06:59:22 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 20
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mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> In article <01bc30d7$2154aab0$452168cf@test1> "L. Todd Heberlein"  
>  writes:
> > Can NeXT's WindowServer be circumvented?
> 
> There is a better answer.

I'd agree; the GameKit did pretty well going through DPS and I'd like to 
think that with about 3 more years' worth of NeXT experience under my belt I 
can improve upon a formula that already worked.

I plan to do my best, at any rate.  Let time be the judge of that...

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:45:05 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
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In <>, 
pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster) wrote:

>Rephrase it however you please, James -- you have still provided
>absolutely no evidence that the study was comprised of 'people who have
>used a Mac for years' instead of a random sampling of Mac, Windows, and
>dual users with equal experience on both, 

	Well, that part's easy.  The summary clearly states that it was made
up of dual users ONLY.  It further makes no claims about the amount of
experience they had on either machine.  And I believe that it's
reasonable to presume that a "random sampling" of people who've used
both Macs & Win95 in their daily office routine (as per the report),
taken 6 month after the the release of Win95, would consist mainly of
people who've used Macs longer than they've used Win95.





       Truth,
       James

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From: taustin@ozemail.com.au (T. Austin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep on DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:41:34 +1000
Organization: Swinburne University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: d133-1.cpe.melbourne.aone.net.au

I am a Mac user who wants to learn how to develop for OpenStep. Currently
I have a Macintosh with a 486 66MHz card installed. I need to know the
best way to go about doing this, and indeed if it is possible at all.

I am willing to upgrade hardware to do this.




                                       ...Tristan Austin
                                             taustin@ozemail.com.au
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From: Petr Novak 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Implementing category ?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:20:01 +0100
Organization: Impact GmbH,Cologne, Germany
Lines: 13
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Hallo !

I try to implement a category of NSTableHeaderView. I have overwritten
method mouseUp: but this method is called ONLY if I also overwrite
method mouseDown: Therefore, I get desirable functionality on mouseUp:,
but I lost functionality of mouseDown: (dragging,resizing)
	Is there some explanation for such behaviour ? (Maybe handling of
events in responder chain ?)
	Is there some possibility to implement this method in subclass
ChildNSTableHeaderView and let the compiler replace parent class with
child class in the class hierarchy ?

Petr Novak
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From: ehutch@hypnos.norden1.com (E. Hutchinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,misc.jobs.offered,chi.jobs
Subject: NEXT/NT/Learn Java/Career Position/ILL
Date: 17 Mar 1997 13:41:50 GMT
Organization: Norden 1 Communications
Lines: 15
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Programmer/analyst/developer
NEXT---------Commercial experience
Objective C--Commercial experience
NT-----------Commercial experience
JAVA---------Will be trained in.
Area---------Greater Chicago
Position-----Career position---Full benefits
Must Be -----US Citizen or Greencard
To Be Considered---Fax resume or mail a hard copy.

--
ehutch@norden1.com		(419) 893-6367 [fax]
Omni Search			(419) 893-6334 [voice]
1310 Craig
Maumee, Ohio 43537
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From: Michael.Gentry@m-c-i.com (Michael Gentry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 17 Mar 1997 15:44:48 GMT
Organization: Internet MCI
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On 03/14/97, James M. Curran wrote:
>Nevertheless, there are cases where you DO need a deep copy, and
>WOULD require a method like the copyfrom I cited above.....

Are you suggesting in C++ one NEVER needs to deep copy an object?  And 
if one needs to deep copy a C++ object, that it is just as fast as 
pointer assignment?

If so, I can see where C++ is a definite winner.

- mrg

-- 
If a cat drives by a cow in a field, does it roll down the window
and go "Mooooo!" ???

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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Sun was Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Date: 17 Mar 1997 16:43:37 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 15
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Erik M. Buck writes
> I have just been notified by a Sun executive that OpenStep is alive and 
> well and a new release is planned.

Too bad they don't inform the people in the field who could sell a few 
copies, eh? I wish they would do a better job. This kind of news (your 
original story) tells the tale better than anything about Sun's true 
corporate priorities. I'll bet you can't find a Sun salesman who doesn't 
know that _Java_ is a Sun product.

--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:55:45 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
Lines: 18
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In article <5gcg6g$i2g1@news.mcleodusa.net>, embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik
M. Buck) wrote:

> I will not trust all of my data to OpenBase.  OpenBase is a fine product!  It 
> is just not up to the task.
> (Openbase is an inexpensive relational database with EOF support)

  Does EOF not have it's own internal "simple" one?

> NSDictionaries start using virtual memory after some point.  As long as your 
> data set fits in memory, NSDictionary performace will be great.  After that, 
> a virtual memory tuned database will do a better job.  NSDictionary will keep 
> working, it just gets slower.  NSDictionary has some maximum number of keys 
> supported (I would gues arrounf 4 billion). That may limit some applications.

  Well it's OK for mine, it's only 7800.

Maury
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From: lph@sei.cmu.edu (Larry Howard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: Samba and Rumba and CAPer...Oh My!
Date: 17 Mar 1997 18:02:06 GMT
Organization: Software Engineering Institute
Lines: 44
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My home desktop LAN has three boxes:

  a NeXTstation running NS3.3
  a PowerMac running MacOS 7.5.5
  a Pentium laptop running Windows 95 (w/PC Card Ethernet Adapter)

(I also have a 68030 Mac running MacOS 7.5.5 and Vicom Internet Gateway
 providing routing services to the Internet via a PPP dialup into
 work...but that's another story.)

My mission was for every box to be able to natively browse the files on
every other box for NO money and a MODEST investment of time.

Mac to NeXT was made easy thanks to Frank Siegert, et al., porting the
Columbia Appletalk Package (CAP) to NS.  Cheers to him, and I'll plug
his site (www.this.net/~frank/next_cap.html).  After many travails in
keeping NeXT's Appletalk Pkg functioning through 3.3, I kiss it goodbye.

PC to NeXT was more challenging, but I kept hearing from Linux-folk
about Samba (http://samba.canberra.edu.au/pub/samba/).  Got the latest
version, hacked it, phutzed with it...it works.  So this go me most of
the way there.  The PC was able to browse the NeXT's file system, but
the NeXT had to use a terminal-based, ftp-like program "smbclient".
Not good enough.

Fortunately, Christian Starkjohann had posted the availability of a
Lanmanager client for NS called Rumba, based on smbfs 0.8.  Got it...
it works fine.  Rumba can be obtained from the Peanuts archive.
(peanuts.leo.org)

So mission accomplished.  The Next provides a "nexus" ;') for the file
sharing, such that the PC sees the Mac's files mounted remotely on, and 
exported by, the NeXT, and the Mac sees the PC's files the same way.
Before anyone asks, printing services on my LAN are supported by an HP
JetDirect ethernet print server, so printing wasn't an issue for me in
the use of this software, although printer sharing is addressed by both
Samba and CAP.

Let's hear it for PD software and NeXT's bundling of NFS with NS,
without which none of this would have been possible.
--
Larry Howard
Software Engineering Institute, Carnegie Mellon University
lph@sei.cmu.edu (NeXTmail/MIME)     (412) 268-6397
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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:22:26 -0600
From: pas@filoli.com
Subject: Job:US-CA-Palo Alto:NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/Object Oriented Developer
Newsgroups: ba.jobs.offered,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.marketplace
Message-ID: <858622276.3537@dejanews.com>
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*** The Filoli Information Systems, Co. ***

Filoli Information Systems, Inc. has an immediate need for Senior
and Entry Level OO software developers with NEXTSTEP and Objective-C
experience. Filoli is a startup with over 100 employees currently
developing a large paperless distributed claims processing system
for clients in the Workers Compensation insurance market.

Filoli's mission is to use advanced information technology including
imaging, networking, and workflow management to to improve the
capability and economic performance of the front office in markets
such as insurance and health care.


*** Job Description ***

Location:
    Palo Alto CA

Title:
    Senior/Junior Software Engineer

Responsibilities:
    Develop GUI, application or framework components for a Workers
    Compensation claims processing and medical management system.

    Requirements Analysis
    Application and Framework Component Design
    Software Implementation
    Software Unit, Integration and Sytem Testing
    Software and System Documentation

Preferred Requirements (Senior Level):
    Excellent teamwork and communication capabilities, especially
    good writing skills
    Experience with OO analysis and design methodologies
    2+ yrs C++, Java, Objective-C or Smalltalk programming experience
    2+ yrs UNIX Operating System experience
    4+ yrs professional software development experience
    A BS degree in Computer Science or a related field

Preferred Requirements (Entry Level/Junior):
    Excellent teamwork and communication capabilities, especially
    good writing skills
    Experience with OO programming
    C++, Java, Objective-C or Smalltalk programming experience
    UNIX Operating System experience
    A BS degree in Computer Science or a related field

Other desirable qualifications:
    NEXTSTEP, OPENSTEP, Windows NT Operating System experience
    Knowledge of databases (Sybase preferred)
    Experience developing reusable framework components
    Experience with tcl


*** Contact Information ***

Please contact Dawn Deir at (415)856-3100 Ext 272, or send your
resume to jobs@filoli.com or fax to (415) 856-3137.


*** What Others Are Saying ***

Robertson Stephens & Company, one of the most respected West Coast
investment banks, has just completed (Feb. 24, 1997) a report on:

The Workers' Compensation Industry: Slaying the Long-Tailed Cost
Dragon

This report looks at the desirability of investing in the Workers'
Compensation market (principallly looking at the risks/rewards of
investing in carriers, and health care providers).  They believe
the Comp market is poised for  potential financial growth, primarily
due to disability management and related medical cost containment
practices. On page 22 of the report we read:

"We believe another interesting niche opportunity within the
specialty service provider space will be the rise of  information
systems companies focused on the workers' compensation market. For
example, Filoli Information Systems, in California's Silicon Valley,
develops and markets an integrated claims management system, called
CompAIDE, for workers' compensation carriers and self-insureds.
Using the latest scanning technology, CompAIDE reduces claims and
administrative costs by providing paperless automation of the claims
process."

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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: 17 Mar 1997 18:38:37 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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T. Austin writes
> I am a Mac user who wants to learn how to develop for OpenStep. 
> Currently I have a Macintosh with a 486 66MHz card installed. I need to 
> know the best way to go about doing this, and indeed if it is possible 
> at all.
> 
> I am willing to upgrade hardware to do this.

Unless your 486 card can run Windows NT, you're out of luck. OPENSTEP for  
Mach won't run on Macintosh DOS-compatibility cards. The cards rely on a  
custom BIOS to allow DOS to run. NEXTSTEP doesn't use the BIOS except  
during startup...

-Mark
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mach, WindowServer, and Sprockets??
Date: 17 Mar 1997 18:27:31 GMT
Organization: mother.com Internet Services
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> This is a rather heavyweight switch, analogous to the Win95 'Restart in  
> DOS' switching.  Running such a game requires you to quit all other apps 

> and effectively reboot.

This is the model I was using.  I have two friends who play games on their
PCs, and I am amazed how non-chalantly they do this.  They even have
separate boot disks for many of their games.  While it amazes me and I
think it is silly, there are an awful lot of games in the PC/DOS world.

> It also requires game developers to manage initialization, configuration,
 
> and formatting all possible display hardware directly.  This is a larger 

> task than you might think.

Actually, I was hoping for an API layer which would be supported by
different vendors.  For example, the maker of my Matrox Millinium card
would write their video driver for GameOS.  I was also hoping for a Linux
model, where many programmers contribute to the code.

> Fortunately, there is a better answer.

Tease, tease, tease.

> The code/overhead you are referring to is a very broad, complete, and
fast  
> set of software that provides device independence, easier programming,
and  
> a fairly complete set of UI elements.  You can ignore it at the expense
of  
> doing it yourself, with all the problems that come along with it.

Once again, I notice in the PC/DOS world, they develop their own user
interface components.  For example, Duke Nukem has its own file-save
interface.  Similarly, I notice my son's PlayStation games have all their
own interfaces.

I tried removing the WindowServer from my NeXTstation this weekend, but I
didn't have much luck.  There wasn't much on-line documentation for doing
it. :-)

> There is a better answer.

Tease, tease, tease.

Are you going to let us in on the secret, or are we going to have to wait?

Todd

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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:39:16 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
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In article <5gcg6g$i2g1@news.mcleodusa.net> embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M.  
Buck) writes:
> EOF is a great product, and it can simulate a OO file system.   
Unfortunately, 
> in order to scale EOF to the performance and reliability needed for a  
file 
> system, $50,000.00 must be spent on an industrial strength database.
I think this is an exageration - well kind of. I don't think it needs to  
replace the file system right now, but it is perfect for certain kinds of  
apps, which manimpulate compound/related documents. For these, there are a  
couple of cheaper soloutions for the db backend (to answer Maury's  
question - you don't NEED a DB, but it would be difficult to get started  
without one. mSql is recommended at least for evaluation purposes).

> Further, administration/distribution/licensing/support contracts make  
the 
> database unsuitable for anything but a large vertical app.
This unfortunatly is the case at the moment. Hopefully this will change.  
If Apple bundle EOF (or make it available VERY cheaply), and include a  
server based on Filemaker (v3 is relational - without a UI, this would not  
really hit the current Filemaker market, as users would still pay for the  
front end. Serious users of the DB could upgrade to something more  
powerfull), then that could change. EOF is great technology which  
currently NeXT are holding to ransom. If they get it into the hands of  
more developers then it could be the most exciting thing to happen in a  
long time.

$an

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From: logic@friley253.res.iastate.edu (???)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: SB 16/32 Mixer Settings -- Creating a Driver or something....
Date: 17 Mar 1997 07:20:09 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa, USA
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Keywords: Sound Blaster Mixer Device Driver

Hello all,
	I was wondering if anyone could give me some help here.  I have
a SB 32 AWE PnP, an EtherLink III, and an Adaptec 2940uw adapter.  In
NeXTSTEP, you cannot use all three of these items together (the midi port  
0x300 is used in both the ethernet card AND the SCSI adapter).   
Unfortunately for me, I have my stereo equipment hooked into the "line in" 
jack on the SB (I don't have fancy equipment, but I REALLY enjoy
listening to music while on my computer) and I would like to access the
ports (get them to activate) AND perhaps write or find an app that will
control the volume.  Now, as I understand it, the SB must be "turned on"
in order for the jacks to be "active".  I don't see the harm in writing
a psuedo-driver that will just access these ports.  No interrupts or 
DMA driven interrupts would be made (so the ethernet and SCSI won't
collide).  Any suggestions on how to start?  Is this just impossible, or
is there a way to do this without writing an entire dirver? Thanks!

Matt
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mach, WindowServer, and Sprockets??
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:42:28 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <01bc30d7$2154aab0$452168cf@test1>, "L. Todd Heberlein"
 wrote:

> Apparently, Apple will be essentially phasing out Game Sprockets.  I guess
> they have their reasons, but I do believe games will help Apple move
> machines, especially in the home market.  To this end, I was thinking of
> GameOS or "Sprockets for Mach."

  Good idea.

> GameOS would consist of the Sprockets API and code libraries sitting
> directly on top of NeXT's Mach kernel.

  Bad idea.  Most games need access to a lot of the OS and GUI that a
system offers, everything from networking code at one end, to text fields
and menu bars at the other.  Making some other "sub-OS" to support this is
almost certainly not required, although future expansion into the areas of
real time support in the kernel would help it I guess.

   What is needed is a selection of objects for supporting the needed
Sprockets.  Of the currently created ones (comments to NeXTits in []'s)...

SpeachSprocket - no speach in Rhapsody.  Would be cool, but can't be done
[ SS offered an easy interface to Apple's various speach output API's ]

SoundSprocket  - bad idea all along, this should have been a part of
                 SoundManager/QuickTimeML rather than a sprocket
[ SoundS allowed you to "attach" sounds to objects in a 3D space, as well
  as describe sound producing and modifying objects in the same space.  SS
  would then correctly calculate the resulting sounds in 3D adding
  in filters, dolby stereo effects for 3D sound, and doppler.  VERY VERY
  cool code, but it should be available to everyone IMHO, not a part of the
  game code. ]

QuickDraw3D RAVE - who knows if this was even cut, or who it "belonged" to?

DrawSprocket   - Almost certainly not needed in the same way that it
                 was under the Mac OS, but the _idea_ of this is still
                 vital and should be offered!
[ DS consisted of two "main" parts, one a page flipper that would use any
known custom page flipping hardware or set up screens in VRAm etc., the
other a collection of utilities for doing common things like fading to
black, hiding the menu bar, taking over the whole screen and setting the
resolution and colour depth. ]

InputSproket - needed, but Apple has to provide the support for input
               devices because the device people don't seem to be
               too interested in doing it for them.  Again, this is a
               needed layer.
[ IS was a single API to any input device.  Device vendors provided a list
of inputs, like "fire key" and games developers provided a list of
"commands", the user then linked them together in a standard (but somewhat
poor) interface ]

NetSprocket - Another great one
[ NS provided an interface and protocol for sending game-like datagrams
about independant of protocol ]

  Then there's the one they never built...

MusicSprocket - MS would provide a _really_ thin interface for playing
                music in programs.  It would be able to understand
                "on the fly" changes, as well as various file formats

                QuickDraw offers a music API, but you import basically
                all of QD to get it.  This is because QT uses it's own
                library manager and you need the core to use it.  I believe
                this will almost certainly not be the case on Rhapsody.

  And some they had no interest in...

SpriteSprocket

TerrainSprocket.

> Can NeXT's WindowServer be circumvented?

  Does it need to be?  And if so, to be replaced by what?  DrawSprocket
included no drawing code.

Maury
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Component Software for Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:52:56 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5gi62k$rqt$1@geraldo.cc.utexas.edu>, raph@porter.as.utexas.edu
(William Raphael Hix) wrote:

>     First, what is NeXT's current approach to component software?

  It depends on what you mean by that.  NeXT's approach to component
software itself is stronger than anyone else in the world - you can cut
and paste objects from program to program, link them up using IB, and have
simple programs running without a line of code.  Pretty impressive, it
make you realize why (on other system) OOPS's never turned into the big
timesaver everyone said it would.

  Now if you mean component _documents_ then you have an example of
something they don't support in the current kits.

  The question is how should it work?  One of the major problems with
OpenDoc is that you had to write OpenDoc - you didn't write applications
that people could use without OpenDoc.  You were in, or you were out, you
couldn't be half way.  OLE on the other hand is based on actual
applications - ones that run and feel "normal" even if you don't have or
use OLE.  In addition, (under OWL anyway) the library that builds the
application builds OLE applications as well.  From a development
standpoint, OLE makes a _lot_ more sense under OpenStep than OpenDoc.

  On the other hand OLE maintains the application centric nature of
computing.  You open the Word doc with Word.  This is somewhat different
than the theoretical OpenDoc world in which documents "just open", for all
intents and purposes in the Finder.  The current implementation was rather
flawed (open a second text document, and it _might_ open in the first
one's context, or it might not) it's the idea that's interesting.  Is this
the model that people want to see in the future?  Personally, I like it.

>     Second, what reasons prompted Apple to drop OpenDoc from Rhapsody in
> favor of JavaBeans?

  Free hype.

Maury
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From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr
Subject: How selecting a Cell?
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Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:19:51 GMT
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	I've got a simple TextFieldCell matrix object but I can't 
manage the selection.
	I've made selectCellAt: and many other tries but NO 
WAY?
Thanks for help.
--
---------------------------------------
				
			
		 |				  
		O_O				 
						
					 |
					O_O
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Fred Galot								
fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr
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From: yospe@hawaii.edu (Nathan F. Yospe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:26:45 -1000
Organization: UHM Physics
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Michael.Gentry@m-c-i.com (Michael Gentry) wrote:
:On 03/14/97, James M. Curran wrote:
:>Nevertheless, there are cases where you DO need a deep copy, and
:>WOULD require a method like the copyfrom I cited above.....
:
:Are you suggesting in C++ one NEVER needs to deep copy an object?  And 
:if one needs to deep copy a C++ object, that it is just as fast as 
:pointer assignment?
:
:If so, I can see where C++ is a definite winner.

Well, no, but... out of curiosity, how would one implement a lazy copy in
Objective C? In my experience, 50% of the time when you do a deep copy, it
is never utilized as such until the original goes out of scope, and there
are often deep copy elements never modified. Lazy copies save a lot of cpu
and memory resources. I am not that comfortable with Objective C... never
liked late binding as a general principal, which is just personal
preferences... but I've been learning it, and I can't figure out how the
hell to do a lazy copy.
-- 
Nathan F. Yospe  | There is nothing wrong with being a sociopath. Its
yospe@hawaii.edu | getting caught thats a problem. Be a mad scientist
UH Manoa Physics | Write poetry. Be an artist. Plot world domination.
Biomedical Phys. | Panthers make great pets. Muhahahahahahahahahaha!!
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From: jeff parsons 
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:56:33 -0500
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Hi, anyone got any suggestions on how to write business application
to help someone with a B.A. in CS to get hired as a programmer. I
have some programming skills but not the full stuff everyone wants?

Thanks,

Jeff
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From: fixer1@megsinet.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Custom Drivers avail. for real-time industrial systems! FIX/DMACS, Wonderware, TCP/IP Datapump
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:15:03 GMT
Organization: MegsInet, Inc. - Midwestern Internet Services
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!!! CUSTOM DRIVERS AVAILABLE !!!
Now, from Custom Technology...
for popular MMI systems such as:
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     and many others!

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      -WIZDOM Control Source card
      -ZELLWEGER CM4 & G.D.A.C.S. Multipoint Gas Analyzer
      -Particle Measuring System - PMS 2500 Particle counting system
      -ATI Beta Gauge - Thickness measuring gauge
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       -AEONIC Gauging System - high speed beta gauge for profile
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From: Eric Gindrup 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:24:08 -0800
Organization: Olahoma State University;...;Financial Accounting Systems
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Michael Gentry wrote:
> 
> On 03/14/97, James M. Curran wrote:
> >Nevertheless, there are cases where you DO need a deep copy, and
> >WOULD require a method like the copyfrom I cited above.....
> 
> Are you suggesting in C++ one NEVER needs to deep copy an object?  And
> if one needs to deep copy a C++ object, that it is just as fast as
> pointer assignment?
> 
> If so, I can see where C++ is a definite winner.
> 
> - mrg

Deep copies do frequently occur in C++.  For "real" projects, one
tries to make the copy a lazy copy.  In this case, the copy is
exactly as fast as pointer assignment until someone tries to make
their copy different from everyone else's, in which case the deep
copy overhead is incurred once for each "divergent" copy.

I missed the beginning of this thread and therefore may have missed
the point.  If so, please disregard previous transmission.
		-- Eric Gindrup ! gindrup@okway.okstate.edu
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From: eric@skatter.USask.Ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Excluding files in Digital Librarian
Date: 17 Mar 1997 21:29:52 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
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I'd like to use the Digital Librarian to index a bunch of source files, but I 
can't seem to get indexing to work properly.  I'm running OPENSTEP 4.1/Intel.

I want to exclude:
  - all directories (and all directories and files below) whose names begin 
with the letters o-
  - all directories (and stuff below) whose names begin with RCS
  - All files ending in .sh
  - All files ending in .bash

So, I created a `.index.ftype' file with contents:
obj     -       -       -       o-*
rcs     -       -       -       RCS
sh      -       -       -       *.sh
bash    -       -       -       *.bash

I then added a `.index.itype' file with contents:
obj
rcs
sh
bash

I then run:
ixbuild -s -l -c

This builds the index, but doesn't ignore any of the above files.  Also, when 
I open the target in the digital librarian, many of the file names show up 
with a big directory folder to the left of their names in the bottom of the 
librarian window (when I `list titles', for example).

What am I doing wrong?  This used to work (I think -- maybe I've missed 
something this time).

-- 
Eric Norum                                 eric@skatter.usask.ca
Saskatchewan Accelerator Laboratory        Phone: (306) 966-6308
University of Saskatchewan                 FAX:   (306) 966-6058
Saskatoon, Canada.                         NeXTMail accepted.
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From: 6jim@acb2.cgs.edu (Jim Kieley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Compiling problem
Date: 18 Mar 1997 02:20:50 GMT
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I am trying to compile a couple of PD things using Openstep 4.0 that have  
similar error messages (they compile fine with GNU C on on other platforms).  
Is anyone willing to give me hints at what the problem might be?

> cc  -DSCRIPT_BIN='"/usr/local/etc/httpd/cgi-bin"'  -DNO_QUERY_OK -o uncgi 
> uncgi.c
> /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
> _putenv
> *** Exit 1

> cc -I/jim/qi-3.1B7/include  -L/jim/qi-3.1B7/lib -o apitest apitest.c 
> libqiapi.a -ll
> /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
> _strdup
> *** Exit 1


Jim Kieley
jim@cgs.edu

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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 03:47:57 GMT
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On Mon, 17 Mar 1997 10:26:45 -1000, yospe@hawaii.edu (Nathan F. Yospe)
wrote:
>
>Well, no, but... out of curiosity, how would one implement a lazy copy in
>Objective C? In my experience, 50% of the time when you do a deep copy, it
>is never utilized as such until the original goes out of scope, and there
>are often deep copy elements never modified. 
>

So, if I understand this right, "lazy copy" is being used to denote 
the following: duplicate the pointer to the object *until* either the 
object, or the "copy" is modified in some way. At which time, do a
deep copy. 

Is this right ? 

If so, there seem to be any number of ways to do this. For 
example (off the top of my head and probably overcomplex), 
let A be the class we want to make lazy copies of. We add 
additional functionality to A to implement the observer pattern
and then define a class LazyProxy which does four things
(note-- retain stuff is a NEXTSTEPism): 

	(0) Retains InstanceOfA. 
	(1) Forwards all "get" messages to A
	(2) Listens for notifications from A (for when A is 
		changed)
	(3) When it gets a set message, it sees if it is the 
		only proxy to A. If so, it does a 
			[self autorelease];
			self=instanceOfA;
			//slight problem here with retain counts that
			//	needs to be handled (but no big deal).

			[self setMessage:];
		otherwise, it creates a deep copy of InstanceOfA
		and does 
			[self autorelease];
			self=[instanceOfA deepCopy]; 	
			//slight problem here with retain counts that
			//	needs to be handled (but no big deal).

			[self setMessage:];

Now, we add the method -(A *) lazyCopy to A and have it return a 
freshly allocated copy of LazyProxy. 

If we wanted to be fancier, there is a slight problem here-- calling 
lazyCopy on an instance of LazyProxy doesn't quite do what we'd
expect (we get a proxy to the wrong object and, eventually, things 
can become out of sync faster than we'd want). But this is easy
enough to fix. We just need  LazyProxy's implementation of
 - lazyCopy has to be a little smarter (and not just a direct
forwarding). 

One nice aspect of this is that LazyProxy really doesn't know anything
about A (it simply forwards messages). Which means that we have one 
class for all our lazy copying needs (though we do need to implement
the observer pattern for A-- we don't quite get off scot free). 


Cheers,

Andy	

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From: embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Implementing category ?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 03:34:11 GMT
Organization: Another Netscape News Server User
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In <332D4501.515@microcomp.de> Petr Novak wrote:
> Hallo !
> 
> I try to implement a category of NSTableHeaderView. I have overwritten
> method mouseUp: but this method is called ONLY if I also overwrite
> method mouseDown: Therefore, I get desirable functionality on mouseUp:,
> but I lost functionality of mouseDown: (dragging,resizing)
> 	Is there some explanation for such behaviour ? (Maybe handling of
> events in responder chain ?)
MouseUp events are not in a window's default event mask.  mouseDown is 
probably adding mouseUp to the mask.  Try adding mouseUp to the mask youself 
and see if you statrt getting the event.

> 	Is there some possibility to implement this method in subclass
> ChildNSTableHeaderView and let the compiler replace parent class with
> child class in the class hierarchy ?
> 
> Petr Novak
> 
YES...See +poseAs:

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From: "Bill Keller" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 04:38:30 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK
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Am I the only person out here losing hope for Openstep?  I've been
following the news on stepwise, and it seems to me that Apple is merely
prolonging the inevitable.  I've been playing around with openstep for nt,
and in my opinion, it's pretty bad.  Implementing DPS on top of the Windows
display system seems like a gigantic kludge.  Its slow, the development
tools (in 4.1) seem incomplete and are very crash prone.  All of the nice
nextstep features (sound kit, 3d kit, etc) aren't there, nor is native
support for things like sound and openGL.

I'd like to upgrade my nextstep box from 3.3 to 4.2, but I'm wondering what
the market is going to be for Mach after Rhapsody comes out.  Sure, I can
develop on Mach and port to Rhapsody, but again, I'd lose any of the
platform specific features that Rhapsody offers.

There doesn't seem to be a market for openstep, except for large company
specific programming.  This may change with Rhapsody, but with a dwindling
market share, and a dim future, I'm finding it hard to stay optimistic. 
Any thoughts?

-- 
Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu)	
Is it too much?  Close your eyes.
Care to look inside?  I am I.
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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 04:54:24 GMT
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I wrote: 

>Now, we add the method -(A *) lazyCopy to A and have it return a 
>freshly allocated copy of LazyProxy. 

Duh ! The point was to avoid alloc'ing and initting as much as 
possible.

When I started typing, I meant to throw in a reference to pooling
LazyProxies (ala the MiscRecycler). I just forgot about it by the time
I got to the above. 


Cheers,

Andy

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From: guyo@island.net.NOSPAM.EH (Guy Ren Ouellette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NEW and IMPROVED!  Quickest, Dirtiest Y2K Solution
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:17:27 -0800
Organization: HookUp Communication Corporation, Vancouver, BC, CANADA
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In article <3329e473.20218170@news.demon.co.uk>, dingbat@codesmiths.com wrote:

> The moving finger of scottm@nic.com (Scott) having written:
> 
> >>For the quickest, dirtiest Y2K solution,
> >>check out the following web site:
> 
> >>
> >Why are you posting this in Mac groups? The Mac will handle the year 2000
> >just fine. It was designed that way.
> 
> Don't you mean because the _NeXT_ was designed that way ?.....

Oh, so the _NeXT_ is *also* designed that way! (Actually, that doesn't
surprise me).

-- 
Guy Ren Ouellette
guyo@island.net
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From: embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 04:39:16 GMT
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In <332DD298.327E@okway.okstate.edu> Eric Gindrup wrote:
> Deep copies do frequently occur in C++.  For "real" projects, one
> tries to make the copy a lazy copy.  In this case, the copy is
> exactly as fast as pointer assignment until someone tries to make
> their copy different from everyone else's, in which case the deep
> copy overhead is incurred once for each "divergent" copy.
> 
> I missed the beginning of this thread and therefore may have missed
> the point.  If so, please disregard previous transmission.
> 		-- Eric Gindrup ! gindrup@okway.okstate.edu
> 
It helps to take advantage of the reference counting built into the 
FoundationKit.  When immutable objects are copied, only a pointer assignment 
takes place.  Mutable objects may or may not be deep copied.  Given a large 
tree of mixed mutable and immutable objects, a copy of the tree will at worst 
copy the pointers of immutable nodes and deep copy the others.

Another cool feature comes from Mach.  Mach uses copy-on-write memory 
allocation.  If you just copy the memory image of your data structure, you 
encounter no memory hit until and unless you attempt to modify the copy.

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 05:43:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 47
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On 03/17/97, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In article <5gcg6g$i2g1@news.mcleodusa.net>, embuck@yin.mcleod.net 
(Erik
>M. Buck) wrote:
>
>> I will not trust all of my data to OpenBase.  OpenBase is a fine 
product!  It 
>> is just not up to the task.
>> (Openbase is an inexpensive relational database with EOF support)
>
>  Does EOF not have it's own internal "simple" one?
>

	No.  Thats not to say that you can't implement them fairly 
easily by writing your own adaptor.  I think the demos even have a 
flat file adaptor, although I'm not sure how useful it is..



>> NSDictionaries start using virtual memory after some point.  As 
long as your 
>> data set fits in memory, NSDictionary performace will be great.  
After that, 
>> a virtual memory tuned database will do a better job.  NSDictionary 
will keep 
>> working, it just gets slower.  NSDictionary has some maximum number 
of keys 
>> supported (I would gues arrounf 4 billion). That may limit some 
applications.
>
>  Well it's OK for mine, it's only 7800.
>

	I'm currently running a dictionary that has 30,000 odd keys in 
it (zip codes).  Lookups are fast.  On OpenStep NT it was a drag on 
the system (a 200MHz PPro).  

	I can run fine it fine on my 133MHz OS 4.1/Mach with it and 
loads of other stuff at the same time.  Says something about NT...

	


-- 
Scott Anguish               DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS
sanguish@digifix.com        Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 05:45:17 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 03/17/97, Ian Stephenson wrote:

>> Further, administration/distribution/licensing/support contracts
>> make the
>> database unsuitable for anything but a large vertical app.
>This unfortunatly is the case at the moment. Hopefully this will
>change.   If Apple bundle EOF (or make it available VERY cheaply),
>and include a   server based on Filemaker (v3 is relational -
>without a UI, this would not   really hit the current Filemaker
>market, as users would still pay for the   front end. Serious
>users of the DB could upgrade to something more   powerfull), then
>that could change. EOF is great technology which   currently NeXT
>are holding to ransom. If they get it into the hands of   more
>developers then it could be the most exciting thing to happen in
>a   long time.
>

	Since FileMaker seems to be ODBC compliant according to what 
I've read, the ODBC connector should work fine.

	EOF is a major bargain, and I'd love to see it rolled into the 
base OS...



-- 
Scott Anguish               DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS
sanguish@digifix.com        Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com

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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 06:11:26 GMT
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:

>>Well you'd be wrong.  At least I developed a system in C++ and bothered to 
>>learn the language and its idioms before I decided it was total shitte.  
I'd 
>>suggest you learn about Objective-C before condemning it.  If I knew as 
>>little about Objective-C as you seem to, I wouldn't want to use it either.
>
>	Touchy, aren't we?  OK, I got it wrong IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE,

Maybe a little, I was getting tired of your uninformed attacks on the 
language.  But really, investigate the language before passing on it.  You 
can do things you wouldn't dream about doing in C++.  One of my favorite 
things about Objective-C is the way you can top-load intelligence in a 
hierarchy such that your derived classes don't have to reimplement the same 
generic behavior.  C++ can do this as well, right?  Wrong.  Let me give you a 
specific example, a real business world example and not a pathological text 
book case, I know you hate those.

I've created a hierarchy of Inspector Classes that give you information about 
any graphical object you click on.  The gui objects know nothing about the 
inspectors.  I start off with an abstract Inspector that knows how to load 
its NIB section (this is a nextism that lets you load archived, usually 
graphical, objects with their connections in place).  Each inspector has its 
own NIB which is named the same as the inspector; however, I only have to 
write this NIB loading once as follows:

- (id)init
{
   [super init];
   [NSBundle loadNibNamed:[[self class] description] owner:self];
   return (self);
}

The key here is that [[self class] description] will return the name of the 
class that the object is actually a kind of.  Each subclass will return a 
different value as opposed to what C++ would do.  I don't have to write a 
custom constructor for each Inspector as I would have to in C++.  If you 
couldn't follow that, take a look at the following code samples.

This C++ code:

// ----------------------------------------------------------------------
#include 

class SuperClass {
public:
    SuperClass();
    virtual void describe ();
};

SuperClass::SuperClass () { this->describe ();}

void SuperClass::describe () { printf ("I am a SuperClass\n"); }

class SubClass : SuperClass {
public:
    virtual void describe ();
};

void SubClass::describe () { printf ("I am a SubClass\n"); }

main (int argc, char** argv) {

SuperClass* super = new SuperClass;
SubClass*   sub   = new SubClass;

}
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Generates the following questionable output:

I am a SuperClass
I am a SuperClass

Not very object oriented if you ask me.  The following ObjC code however:

// ----------------------------------------------------------------------
#import 

@interface SuperClass : NSObject {}
- (id)   init;
- (void) describe;
@end

@implementation SuperClass
- (id)   init       { [self describe]; }
- (void) describe   { printf ("I am a SuperClass\n"); }
@end

@interface SubClass : SuperClass {}
- (void) describe;
@end

@implementation SubClass
- (void) describe { printf ("I am a SubClass\n"); }
@end

main (int argc, char** argv) {

id super = [[SuperClass alloc] init];
id sub   = [[SubClass alloc]   init];

}
// ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Generates the much more appropriate output:

I am a SuperClass
I am a SubClass

Gotta love that dynamic messaging.


Want to see some more code that you'd kill yourself to write in C++, checkout 
the following method implementation.  When a gui object receives a mouse down 
it get inspected as follows:
The application is informed of the mouse down and of the individual object 
which received the mouse down.  The app owns a panel in which it displays 
different kinds of inspectors depending on what is being inspected.  It does 
this by implementing the following method:

- (void)inspect:(id)inspectee

{
   Class     inspectorClass;  // This will be the factory inspector object
   id        inspector;       // This will be the correct inspector instance
   NSString *sClass;          // This will be a string representation of
                              // the factory inspector class' name.

   if ([panel isVisible])
      {
      // construct the name of the inspector factory by appending "Inspector"
      // to the inspectee name.  For instance Button becomes ButtonInspector.
      sClass = [[[inspectee class] description]
                  stringByAppendingString:@"Inspector"];
      
      // obtain the factory for the correct Inspector if one exists using
      // this convenient runtime function which actually returns an object
      // factory from a string.
      inspectorClass = NSClassFromString(sClass);
         
      if (inspectorClass)
         // If the factory exists, I get to instantiate a custom
         // ButtonInspector or BrowserInspector or etc.
         inspector = [inspectorClass new];
      else
         // If it doesn't, I instantiate a genericInspector which simply
         // displays the class name of the inspected object.
         inspector = [GenericInspector new];

      [[(NSPanel *)[self panel] contentView] retain];

      // I insert the correct Inspector into my panel
      [(NSPanel *)[self panel] setContentView:[inspector viewInspector]];

      // Set my panels title to the Inspector's name
      [[self panel]            setTitle:[[inspector class] description]];

      // And have the inspector interrogate the inspectee so that it can
      // display the appropriate information about the inspectee to the user
      // subsequently allowing the user to configure the inspected object
      [inspector               inspect:inspectee];
      }
}

Can you grasp the power of what is happening here.  If I create new custom 
inspectors and compile them into my app they will automagically be used.  I 
never have to touch this code again, no case statements, no if this object 
then use that inspector.  This would be a nightmare to implement in C++.  
Someone said that objective-C can be obscenely beautiful, I agree completely, 
you just have to know how to use it.

Verite',
Tony

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From: decoy_id@to_fool_junk_on_the.net (Lee Altenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 06:49:49 GMT
Organization: MHPCC
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References: <01bc3356$5e052210$08254e8b@carcosa>
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Cc: kellerw@okstate.edu

In <01bc3356$5e052210$08254e8b@carcosa> "Bill Keller" wrote:
>  I've been playing around with openstep for nt,
> and in my opinion, it's pretty bad.  Implementing DPS on top of the Windows
> display system seems like a gigantic kludge.  Its slow, the development
> tools (in 4.1) seem incomplete and are very crash prone. 

Very interesting.  This is the first "review" I've seen for OpenStep/NT.  
Doesn't sound encouraging as far as cross platform potential for OpenStep. 
OpenStep/Solaris has been reported to be dog slow too (of course, that's Sun's 
fault).  Anyone else have first hand experience with OpenStep/NT?

--
=======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.

Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office:	Maui High Performance Computing Center
	550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100
	Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone:	(808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
E-mail: altenber@mhpcc.edu 
Web:	http://pueo.mhpcc.edu/~altenber/
=======================================================================

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From: Jon Rosen 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 16:58:19 +0000
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
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Garance A Drosehn wrote:
> 
> Java is a language.  As a language, my own prediction is that two
> years from now there will be more happening in Java than in pure
> C++.  I should probably hedge that a bit, and say that there will
> be more new things happening with "Java and other OO languages"
> then there will be with C++.  While Java 1.0 wasn't all it was
> billed to be, new versions of Java are filling in the most glaring
> deficiencies.
> 
> Web applications use a virtual machine for running Java byte codes.
> Some people have a weird notion that there is something about the
> Java language which makes it impossible to compile Java into
> hardware-native code.  It is odd that such confusion exists.  Now,
> I agree that it is quite possible that the JVM will only be used
> for web applets within two years, but that's not the same as saying
> Java (as a language) will be limited to web applets.
> 
> [furthermore, it wouldn't be all that surprising to me if we find
> that there is a better intermediate representation than the current
> Java byte codes and JVM]
> 
Not to mention the likelihood of seeing silicon-based JVM accelerator 
cards which bring Java performance significantly.  The advantages of 
such a strategy have already been proven in areas such as video 
graphics accelerators where cards are built to accelerate performance 
of graphic primitive and complex operations by intercepting or 
vectoring standard API calls.  It is unfortunate, IMHO, that the 
Windows standard for graphics seems to have been settled on by the 
industry (as opposed to Display Postscript which is superior), but the 
concept is good.

The Java VM poses the same opportunities.  While the Java VM built 
into a browser or a run-time will always be capable of running Java 
bytecodes directly, if there is an accelerator card on the machine, it 
will be able to move much of the work to the accelerator card for 
significant performance gains.  Add to this that Java is inherently 
multithreadable, and you have the opportunity to add multiple 
accelerator cards and actually turn a simple desktop box into a 
powerful multiple processor system.  Watching Java-based apps run 
today can be exasperating, but in the future, both with faster 
principal CPUs, as well as accelerators, Java will provide significant 
advantages over more traditional languages like C, Obj-C and C++, not 
even starting to mention the portability aspects.

Jon Rosen

PS - Hi to some old friends out there.  I have been away a while and I 
am just getting back to the Internet.
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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 02:39:50 -0800
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Lines: 31
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References: <01bc3356$5e052210$08254e8b@carcosa>
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It's been said that OpenStep on NT is like putting lipstick
on a pig.

Sticking to the Windows UI as much as NeXT did, IMHO, amounts
to putting transparent lipstick on a pig.

Before the merger, NeXT really did have to support NT.  Now, for
political reasons, they still have to, but I will *never* go
along with a plan to deploy OpenStep code on a Microsquish
platform.

Consider WebObjects.  Develop the wizziest web site the world
has ever seen, and then put it on an NT box, so that anyone who
can send it a TCP packet can take it down?  I don't *think* so!

Consider any spiffy custom app you've written under OpenStep for
Mach.  Care to deploy it on a Desktop OS that crashes hourly?
No thanks, I'd rather not go *there* today.

NT is crap. NT is unsecure, unsecurable, and it only looks robust
compared to Microsquish's earlier abortions. 

W95 is DOS. 'nuff said.

Let's all make the point, as emphatically as possible, to the
marketing pukes of the world, that OpenStep is a wonderful development
environment, with which we will write apps that deserve to be deployed
on a platform that works.

-jcr

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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 12:54:46 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <5gm3an$hgr@netty.york.ac.uk>
References:  <5evgk9$7m4@news.next.com>  <1997031007201320839001@pool011-146.innet.be>
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On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 07:20:13 +0100, Luc Dubois  wrote:
> Check it out on 

even better, check out http://www.lucent.com/inferno/
Inferno is *not* intended exclusively for web applets - it's
a truly portable OS with a very small footprint (an interesting
system can run in 512K RAM and 512K ROM) and many innovative
ideas that make it extraordinarily networkable and powerful.

from the press release:
> Inferno 1.0 runs as a stand-alone operating system on small devices
> which use Hitachi SH3, DEC StrongArm, Intel Architecture, MIPS,
> Motorola 68030, Power PC, SPARC and ARM processors. The product also
> can be hosted as a virtual system on Sun Solaris, Silicon Graphics
> IRIX, DEC Alpha, HP-UX, Linux and Microsoft NT and Win95.

inferno is from the original developers of unix, at bell labs, (now
part of Lucent technologies) and really does provide a decent solution
to most of the problems of cross platform development, (unlike java,
for instance which tries to solve all security and platform
independence problems in the language itself)

i'm in the process of porting my nextstep app to inferno because i
believe it can offer real benefits to the consumer, and more to the
point, inferno is a dream to develop for...  the language is spartan,
but is an absolute pleasure to use.

and you *know* that once you've written an application once,
it will run *without change* on all other inferno platforms.

you can download the inferno developer's kit for free.

  rog.

p.s. i have no connection with Lucent other than awe-inspired onlooker...

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From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 16:41:39 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <5gmgk3$4hk@news-central.tiac.net>
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On 03/17/97, Lee Altenberg wrote:
>In <01bc3356$5e052210$08254e8b@carcosa> "Bill Keller" wrote:
>>  I've been playing around with openstep for nt,
>> and in my opinion, it's pretty bad.  Implementing DPS on top of the 
Windows
>> display system seems like a gigantic kludge.  Its slow, the 
development
>> tools (in 4.1) seem incomplete and are very crash prone. 
>
>Very interesting.  This is the first "review" I've seen for 
OpenStep/NT.  
>Doesn't sound encouraging as far as cross platform potential for 
OpenStep. 
>OpenStep/Solaris has been reported to be dog slow too (of course, 
that's Sun's 
>fault).  Anyone else have first hand experience with OpenStep/NT?

I do, but the same way OpenStep/Solaris is Sun's fault (DPS on top of 
OpenLook or whatever the name of sun's widget set), OpenStep/NT is 
Micro$oft fault. No matter how bad these two implementations are it 
doesn't prove that OpenStep as a cross-platform solution is bad. It's 
just a poor implementation. Let's wait for GNUstep folks show us the 
true power of OpenStep.

Aleksey
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From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 16:33:03 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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On 03/17/97, "Bill Keller" wrote:
>Am I the only person out here losing hope for Openstep?  I've been
>following the news on stepwise, and it seems to me that Apple is 
merely
>prolonging the inevitable.  I've been playing around with openstep 
for nt,
>and in my opinion, it's pretty bad.  Implementing DPS on top of the 
Windows
>display system seems like a gigantic kludge.  Its slow, the 
development
>tools (in 4.1) seem incomplete and are very crash prone.

Well, but sometimes they are better then similar one under Mach. 
Yesterday my third project stop to run from the debugger under Mach. 
It just hangs, through under NT it runs fine. Am I the only unlucky 
person? It's so darn inconvenient to debug under NT.

Just my 0.002 cents.

Aleksey
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From: jalon@triere.ens.fr (Julien Jalon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:07:40 GMT
Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris
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In article <5glbme$4q7@news.ml.com>,
Tony Necakov <necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com> wrote:
>- (void)inspect:(id)inspectee
>
>{
[... snip snip ...]
>      // construct the name of the inspector factory by appending "Inspector"
>      // to the inspectee name.  For instance Button becomes ButtonInspector.
>      sClass = [[[inspectee class] description]
>                  stringByAppendingString:@"Inspector"];
>      
>      // obtain the factory for the correct Inspector if one exists using
>      // this convenient runtime function which actually returns an object
>      // factory from a string.
>      inspectorClass = NSClassFromString(sClass);
>         
>      if (inspectorClass)
>         // If the factory exists, I get to instantiate a custom
>         // ButtonInspector or BrowserInspector or etc.
>         inspector = [inspectorClass new];
>      else
>         // If it doesn't, I instantiate a genericInspector which simply
>         // displays the class name of the inspected object.
>         inspector = [GenericInspector new];
>
[... snip snip ...]
>}
>
>Can you grasp the power of what is happening here.  If I create new custom 
>inspectors and compile them into my app they will automagically be used.  I 
>never have to touch this code again, no case statements, no if this object 
>then use that inspector.  This would be a nightmare to implement in C++.  
>Someone said that objective-C can be obscenely beautiful, I agree completely, 
>you just have to know how to use it.
And you can be much more powerfull by using categories :

@interface NSObject (Inspectable)

- classInspector;

@end

@implementation NSObject (Inspectable)

- classInspector
{
    return [GenericInspector class];
}

@end

and replace your code above just by :

- (void)inspect:(id)inspectee

{
[... snip snip ...]
	inspectorClass=[inspectee classInspector];
[... snip snip ...]
}

if you want to add an inspector of class MyInspectorClass for a class
(and all the subclass which don't have a specific inspector class), e.g. :
MyClass, you just have to write (of course) the MyInspectorClass and add the
category for the class MyClass :

@implementation MyClass (Inspectable)

- classInspector;

@end

@implementation MyClass (Inspectable)

- classInspector
{
    return [MyInspectorClass class];
}

@end

That's what we use with Interface Builder and it is very powerfull

--Julien
-- 
Julien Jalon					| Ecole normale superieure
jalon@clipper.ens.fr				| 45 rue d'Ulm
http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/	| 75230 Paris Cedex 05
						| FRANCE
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 18:05:47 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 15
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References: 
Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.192

John C. Randolph writes
> Let's all make the point, as emphatically as possible, to the
> marketing pukes of the world, that OpenStep is a wonderful development
> environment, with which we will write apps that deserve to be deployed
> on a platform that works.

OK, but let's remember not to call them "pukes" to their faces. 8^)
That'll be hard, I know, but sales should be stronger that way. As 
the saying goes, "Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it."

--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Why lose "return self" in Openstep?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 18:11:01 GMT
Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc.
Lines: 39
Message-ID: <5gmlrl$5n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com
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I've just started converting an app of mine to Openstep from NS 3.2.  I was 
reading the "Converting Your Code" document in the developer release notes, 
and read the following:

"Previously, methods returned self by convention. Some methods return self to 
indicate success and nil to indicate failure. Returning self to indicate a 
Boolean value or returning self without any associated meaning made the API 
more confusing."

I can live with this convention, but I don't know if I agree with it.  I 
don't think that it made the API anymore confusing, but it did make my code a 
little more elegant.  I remember when I was learning to write NEXTSTEP 
programs, it was emphasized how cool it was that methods returned self, 
because it enabled you to do things like:  

	[[[myObject doSomething] doSomethingElse] doAnotherThing];

A cool thing about that is that if  -doSomething returns nil, the rest of the 
line doesn't get executed.  Perhaps this is bad practice, I don't know...

Instead, now I'll have to do something like:

	if([myObject doSomething]) 
		if([myObject doSomethingElse])
			[myObject doAnotherThing];

I can live with this, its no big deal either way.  But what I'm wondering is, 
was this change made REALLY because it made the API more confusing, or is 
there a better explanation, one that justifies such a change?  And who was 
this confusing to?  C++ programmers?  If anyone out there knows of a better 
reason why returning VOID is better than returning self, please let me 
know...

Just curious,

--
Mark Trombino
  mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (NEXTMail, MIME Mail okay)

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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:51:19 -0600
From: rberber@spin.com.mx
Subject: Re: Perl
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <858710783.12760@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: rberber@spin.com.mx
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To: cavery@dc.net
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Christopher Avery wrote:
>
> I downloaded the Perl Package from ftp-next-peak but it wouldn't
> install. Instaed it said not all the programs in the package were
> in the package and I should install from the original floppies. Can
> anyone help with this?
>

If you have version 5.002 from Peak, there was an error in the
installation which I reported to TipTop (the guys that made the package)
back in january.

I had to change the file Perl.pre_install (inside the package), on line
67 it said:

	compress -c > /tmp/##${packageName}##.tar.Z

the installation doesn't work until you change that line into:

	compress -c > ${packagePath}/${packageName}.tar.Z

Regards,
---
Rene Berber
rberber@spin.com.mx
MIME / NeXT Mail welcomed

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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Two-column Menus
Date: 18 Mar 1997 18:16:25 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
Message-ID: <5gmm5p$p9n@netty.york.ac.uk>
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On 14 Mar 1997 11:07:33 GMT, biesingert@asme.org  wrote:
> Does anybody out there know how to handle a
> Services Menu that has become too long i.e.
> display it in two columns? What else could I do
> when the lower part cannot be displayed within 
> the screen area?

it scrolls automatically when you drag the mouse off the screen. (try
it - click the right mouse button near the bottom of the screen, and
then drag the mouse downwards)

  rog.

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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Implementing category ?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 18:29:59 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
Message-ID: <5gmmv7$p9n@netty.york.ac.uk>
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On 18 Mar 1997 03:34:11 GMT, Erik M. Buck  wrote:
> In <332D4501.515@microcomp.de> Petr Novak wrote:
> > I try to implement a category of NSTableHeaderView. I have overwritten
> > method mouseUp: but this method is called ONLY if I also overwrite
> > method mouseDown: Therefore, I get desirable functionality on mouseUp:,
> > but I lost functionality of mouseDown: (dragging,resizing)
> > 	Is there some explanation for such behaviour ? (Maybe handling of
> > events in responder chain ?)

> MouseUp events are not in a window's default event mask.  mouseDown is 
> probably adding mouseUp to the mask.  Try adding mouseUp to the mask youself 
> and see if you statrt getting the event.

actually, this probably won't work, because a mouseDown event received
by NSTableHeaderView probably initiates an event loop, which gets
events directly from the event queue, so the mouseUp method will not be
called.

the following way might be a reasonable solution:

- (void)mouseDown:(NSEvent *)e
{
  [super mouseDown:e];
  [self myMouseUpCode];
}

this assumes that you always want something to happen on a mouse up
event, and that the native mouseDown method always processes events
until it gets a mouseUp event.

obviously it won't work as a category method, because the call to super
must work correctly in order to retain the old functionality.

if you wanted to hijack a bit of the NSTableView's space for your own
mouse action, you could do something like:

- (void)mouseDown:(NSEvent *)e
{
  if (NSPointInRect([self convertPoint:[e location] fromView:nil], specialRect))
    [self myMouseDownCode:e];
  else
    [super mouseDown:e];
}

where specialRect is the rectangle in the view that you want
special mouse event processing for.

  hope this helps,
    rog.

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From: marcel@sysyem.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Why lose "return self" in Openstep?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 19:13:15 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <5gmlrl$5n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  
(Mark Trombino) writes:

I think one of the main reasons is that returning 'self' over a  
distributed objects connection just for the heck of it is somewhat  
annoying.

Marcel
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From: "Andrew J. Smith" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Why lose "return self" in Openstep?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:11:16 -0600
Organization: KAL Software, LLC
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <332EE8D4.6EDA@tnrealestate.com>
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Mark Trombino wrote:
> 
> I've just started converting an app of mine to Openstep from NS 3.2.  I was
> reading the "Converting Your Code" document in the developer release notes,
> and read the following:
> 
> "Previously, methods returned self by convention. Some methods return self to
> indicate success and nil to indicate failure. Returning self to indicate a
> Boolean value or returning self without any associated meaning made the API
> more confusing."
> 
> I can live with this convention, but I don't know if I agree with it.  I
> don't think that it made the API anymore confusing, but it did make my code a
> little more elegant.  I remember when I was learning to write NEXTSTEP
> programs, it was emphasized how cool it was that methods returned self,
> because it enabled you to do things like:
> 
>         [[[myObject doSomething] doSomethingElse] doAnotherThing];
> 
> A cool thing about that is that if  -doSomething returns nil, the rest of the
> line doesn't get executed.  Perhaps this is bad practice, I don't know...
> 
> Instead, now I'll have to do something like:
> 
>         if([myObject doSomething])
>                 if([myObject doSomethingElse])
>                         [myObject doAnotherThing];
> 
> I can live with this, its no big deal either way.  But what I'm wondering is,
> was this change made REALLY because it made the API more confusing, or is
> there a better explanation, one that justifies such a change?  And who was
> this confusing to?  C++ programmers?  If anyone out there knows of a better
> reason why returning VOID is better than returning self, please let me
> know...
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> --
> Mark Trombino
>   mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (NEXTMail, MIME Mail okay)


While I'm certainly not an Objective-C wizard, I understand that the
reason for this
is to increase performance of DOE (Distributed Objects Everywhere?)
programs.
If "return self" is used in a program that has been segmented over a
network,
then the object is packaged up and returned over the network.  This is
not 
usually necessary and can create a severe performance problem.

Someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong.

Andrew J. Smith
KAL Software, LLC
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From: "Andrew J. Smith" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 13:19:22 -0600
Organization: KAL Software, LLC
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <332EEABA.41A4@tnrealestate.com>
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Mark Bessey wrote:
> 
> T. Austin writes
> > I am a Mac user who wants to learn how to develop for OpenStep.
> > Currently I have a Macintosh with a 486 66MHz card installed. I need to
> > know the best way to go about doing this, and indeed if it is possible
> > at all.
> >
> > I am willing to upgrade hardware to do this.
> 
> Unless your 486 card can run Windows NT, you're out of luck. OPENSTEP for
> Mach won't run on Macintosh DOS-compatibility cards. The cards rely on a
> custom BIOS to allow DOS to run. NEXTSTEP doesn't use the BIOS except
> during startup...
> 
> -Mark
> --
> Mark Bessey
> Apple Computer, Inc.
> -->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--


I saw an OrangePC ad the other day that claims some of their new DOS
cards
for Mac can run NT.  Has anyone out there used one of these?

Andrew J. Smith
KAL Software, LLC
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From: Stefan Zeiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
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Date: 18 Mar 1997 20:01:17 +0100
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Tony Necakov wrote:

> [...] One of my favorite 
> things about Objective-C is the way you can top-load intelligence in a 
> hierarchy such that your derived classes don't have to reimplement the same 
> generic behavior. [...]

I'd like to add a similar example which demonstrates the power of
Objective-C's dynamic OO model.

Many Amiga programs implement an ARexx port. ARexx is a general-purpose script
language which is (in the case of this example) mainly used for interconneting
programs which provide some of their functionality through an ARexx port.

Imagine a class RexxHost which implements a basic ARexx host. You can add
custom ARexx commands by subclassing it:

@interface MyRexx: RexxHost
- rxcVERSION;
@end

@implementation MyRexx

- rxcVERSION
{
  [self replyRexxCmd:"rexxTest for ObjectiveAmiga" rc:RC_OK];
}

@end

Now create an instance of MyRexx, initialize it with an ARexx host name and
run it for example with "[[[[MyRexx alloc] initHost:"REXXTEST"] run] free]".
Note that the above class plus a main() function running "[[[[MyRexx alloc]
initHost:"REXXTEST"] run] free]" make up a fully functional example
program (RexxHost provides a "QUIT" command which makes "run" return; This can
of course be overridden in subclasses because it is implemented as a "rxcQUIT"
method). You do not have to tell RexxHost which commands you implement because
this information is available through the Objective-C runtime.

When the ARexx interpreter encounters an unknown command and the script
specified a host ("ADDRESS REXXTEST") it asks the host to run the command if
possible or return an error (which is handled by the interpreter or an error
handler in the script) if the command is not implemented.

Let's look at what happens when RexxHost is asked to process a command:

- handleRexxMsg
{
  char *p;
  char cmdString[30];
  SEL cmdSel;
  int i,j;

      // [...]

      // p contains an ARexx command (in upper case) plus arguments

      // Now we create the corresponding method name
      strcpy(cmdString,"rxc");
      for(i=3,j=0;(p[j]!=' ')&&(p[j]!=0)&&(i<27);i++,j++) cmdString[i]=p[j];
      cmdString[i++]=0;

      // First part of the Objective-C magic: Get a selector for the method
      cmdSel=sel_get_uid(cmdString);

      // [...]

      // Magic, part 2: Call the selected method if it exists
      if([self respondsTo:cmdSel])
      {
	refused=NO;
	[self perform:cmdSel];
	if(!refused) ReplyMsg((struct Message *)rexxMsg);
      }
      else refused=YES;

      // [...]
}

PS: F'Up2 set to comp.lang.objective-c. This really has nothing to do with
    NeXT or Mac.
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Wait, do I even _need_ documents?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 15:18:56 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5gla2h$icv@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:

>         I can run fine it fine on my 133MHz OS 4.1/Mach with it and 
> loads of other stuff at the same time.  Says something about NT...

  Well let's be fair, OpenStep for NT.  Ok, NT.   :-)

Maury
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From: teb@eng.cam.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: texinfo
Date: 18 Mar 1997 20:39:08 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Do not manage to compile texinfo-3.9 with
cc 2.5.8 for OpenStep 4.0 / Intel. Could
anybody send me one?

Many thanks,

Thomas


---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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Sender: Karsten Heinze 
From: Karsten Heinze 
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 17:52:33 +0800
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Cc: comp-sys-next-programmer@antigone.com
Reply-To: Karsten.Heinze@Informatik.TU-Chemnitz.DE
Lines: 31

In article <5gldud$c0b@kaopala.mhpcc.edu>, you wrote:
> In <01bc3356$5e052210$08254e8b@carcosa> "Bill Keller" wrote:
> >  I've been playing around with openstep for nt,
> > and in my opinion, it's pretty bad.  Implementing DPS on top of =
the Windows
> > display system seems like a gigantic kludge.  Its slow, the =
development
> > tools (in 4.1) seem incomplete and are very crash prone.=20
>=20
> Very interesting.  This is the first "review" I've seen for =
OpenStep/NT. =20
> Doesn't sound encouraging as far as cross platform potential for =
OpenStep.=20
> OpenStep/Solaris has been reported to be dog slow too (of course, =
that's Sun's=20
> fault).  Anyone else have first hand experience with OpenStep/NT?

Same bad experience for me.
I run OpenStep 4.1/Mach on a P100/64MB and OpenStep 4.1/NT on a =
P200/64MB.
It is nice working with NeXTSTEP (i don't like the name =
OpenStep/Mach), but NT is REALLY slow, crashs 2 times daily, no good =
apps, ...
Normally I would never use any M$ "OS", but i must develop on NT, =
because no EOF adaptors for Mach, no Java for NeXTSTEP, ...

- Karsten
---
                 Karsten.Heinze@Informatik.TU-Chemnitz.DE=20
                          Phone / Fax : +86-10-64 94 78 03
                          *** Powered_By_NeXTSTEP ***
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From: william@pdh.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Why lose "return self" in Openstep?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 21:12:37 GMT
Organization: pdh
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Cc: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com

In <5gmlrl$5n@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> Mark Trombino typed:
> I've just started converting an app of mine to Openstep from NS 3.2.  I was 
> reading the "Converting Your Code" document in the developer release notes, 
> and read the following:
> 
>...I can live with this, its no big deal either way.  But what I'm wondering 
is, 
> was this change made REALLY because it made the API more confusing, or is 
> there a better explanation, one that justifies such a change? 
>

There's a general principle here-- return values should be meaningful
(you should only get an object pointer when you request one) and they 
should be checked. 

While "chaining" together method calls like

	[[[myObject doSomething] doSomethingElse] doAnotherThing];

is convenient, it promotes bad practice because programmers tend to 
just assume everything succeeded (sorta like when people don't check
their mallocs). 

From a pragmatic viewpoint: think about DO and RPC for a moment. 
Returning self is just plain yucky there.


Cheers,

Andy

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From: teb@eng.cam.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cc-2.5.8 (OpenStep4.0) and gcc-2.7.2.2
Date: 18 Mar 1997 21:35:28 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Hello gurus,

'make CC=cc bootstrap' results in a bus error
when I try and compile gcc-2.7.2.2 under
OpenStep4.0 / Intel with cc-2.5.8. Any hints
are most appreciated. Thanks!

Thomas


---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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From: Jim Redman 
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 97 10:53:28 -0700
Subject: RE:Component Software for Rhapsody
Cc: raph@porter.as.utexas.edu
Lines: 63

raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) writes:
>    The decision to strand OpenDoc with the current MacOS begs =
several
>questions about the future of component software on the Mac. =20
and:
>    First, what is NeXT's current approach to component software? =
=20
How are we defining component software?  NeXT already supports the =
fairly standard definition of components, which translates to "any =
application complying with CORBA or some similar standard", with =
some caveates.  In manufacturing, my particular area of interest, =
OMG's CORBA and Microsoft's DCOM are the two major standards and =
with the progressing integration of these two standards it's =
reasonable to expect their dominance to continue.  Neither of =
these preclude the creation of document managment tools.  =46rom =
my perspective the demise of OpenDoc and DSOM is no surprise, nor =
a major concern, others may differ.  Neither of these standards =
(CORBA or DCOM), in itself, is sufficient to create hetergenous =
component software, that is, different vendors creating =
applications to these standards is a necessary, but not a =
sufficient, condition for interoperability.  To get =
interoperability requires that the interface to applications, =
essentially the methods a remote object understands, be defined.  =
This is the purpose of CORBAServices and JavaBeans  (is there a =
Microsoft equivalent?).

To me, this leaves a class of component applications undefined.  =
With NS/OS it is possible to load and unload "components" on the =
fly.  That is, you can take objects, functions etc. and run-time =
link them into a running application.  This makes it possible for =
someone with very little knowledge of the application, no =
knowledge of CORBA/DCOM/etc., but with a clear knowledge of what =
they want the application to do, to simply change the application. =
 In our case, for example, to support a new device on the factory =
floor, requires the development of code that pertains only to that =
device, not to how to pass the data over a CORBA compliant =
network.  These "fine grained" components, relatively simple with =
NS/OS, are largely unavailable on other platforms and so don't =
even have a name!

In the latest OS docs there is a hint that frameworks may become =
unloadable.  NeXT's reference counting scheme allows the run-time =
system to know whether any object within a framework in referenced =
and so make unloading feasible and perhaps fairly easy.  Once you =
know that no object within a framework is referenced it is =
possible to unload the whole framework.  C functions and other =
variables within a framework might be a problem, but disallowing =
indirect references to these from outside the framework or making =
these references the responsibility of the developer, would not be =
a huge restriction.  NeXT/Apple could  maintain their substantial =
lead in component development by completing this technology (and =
perhaps they could find a name for it?).

>Since component software seems a natural extention of the object =
orientation NeXT
>is famous for, I'm surprised we've heard nothing about any NeXT =
component=20
>technology. =20
Marketing, a classic weakness of high technology companies that =
has plagued both NeXT and Apple.  Let's hope that the new Apple =
can recognize and correct this deficiency.

Jim=
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From: "Carl A. Carlson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: 18 Mar 1997 14:56:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Message-ID: <332EAE22.445D@primenet.com>
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I was in a similar situation.  I gave up on my Mac and decided to buy a
NeXT Station (b/w) from Spherical
(http://www.orb.com/Inventory/index.html).  I got it  with 16 megs and 1
gigabyte drive for $703 delivered.  It's quite a machine for the money.
####################################################################
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From: dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Send Y2K Work to India w Confidence & This Solution
Date: 18 Mar 1997 23:57:05 +0100
Organization: Posting Service
Message-ID: <199703182257.XAA08372@basement.replay.com>
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The New and Improved "Open and Shut Window Technique" is so
simple that you will be able to send your Y2K requirements
to India with confidence.

Contrary to the erroneous impressions of some, this technique
does not require continual maintenance after the initial
conversion.

The url of the "Open and Shut Window Technique" is:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

(Web site updated on 3/12/1997 to reflect the
newer, improved version of the technique.)

Dash Langan

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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mach, WindowServer, and Sprockets??
Date: 18 Mar 1997 21:43:01 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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"L. Todd Heberlein"  wrote:
> Mike P wrote:
> > The code/overhead you are referring to is a very broad, complete,
> > and fast set of software that provides device independence,
> > easier programming, and a fairly complete set of UI elements.
> > You can ignore it at the expense of doing it yourself, with
> > all the problems that come along with it.
> 
> Once again, I notice in the PC/DOS world, they develop their own
> user interface components.  For example, Duke Nukem has its own
> file-save interface.  Similarly, I notice my son's PlayStation
> games have all their own interfaces.

If we are going to provide something like Game Sprockets, which I
think is a very good idea, then we should set our sights much higher
than what the DOS world is willing to put up with.  We want to be
able to market this ability once it's done.  A marketting message
of:
           "Look, we're just as crappy as DOS!"
is not going to go far.

People put up with the DOS rubbish because they want the games.
They do not buy the games because they want a pathetic operating
system.  If we can give them the games they want without all the
rubbish, everyone will be happier.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 22:21:44 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> John C. Randolph writes
> > Let's all make the point, as emphatically as possible, to the
> > marketing pukes of the world, that OpenStep is a wonderful
> > development environment, with which we will write apps that
> > deserve to be deployed on a platform that works.
> 
> OK, but let's remember not to call them "pukes" to their faces.
> 8^) That'll be hard, I know, but sales should be stronger that
> way. As the saying goes, "Always be sincere, even when you don't
> mean it."

It was the great Joe Franklin who said:

        "Sincerity is critical, so once you can fake
         that you're all set"

(note: he was saying that as a joke in an interview...)

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 18 Mar 1997 23:09:57 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
Lines: 39
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"Bill Keller"  wrote:
> Am I the only person out here losing hope for Openstep?  I've
> been following the news on stepwise, and it seems to me that
> Apple is merely prolonging the inevitable.  I've been playing
> around with openstep for nt, and in my opinion, it's pretty bad.

I have no experience with OpenStep for WindowsNT, and *personally*
I don't have a lot of interest in it now that Rhapsody is coming.

> I'd like to upgrade my nextstep box from 3.3 to 4.2, but I'm
> wondering what the market is going to be for Mach after Rhapsody
> comes out.  Sure, I can develop on Mach and port to Rhapsody,
> but again, I'd lose any of the platform specific features that
> Rhapsody offers.

I think you're misunderstanding what Apple is doing.  The product
you would think of as a followon to NeXTSTEP/Intel *is* the yellow
box of Rhapsody.  All interviews I've seen imply that everything
done for the yellow box of Rhapsody is intended for the Intel-based
product too.  (not necessarily for OpenStep/WinNT, but for the
MachOS-based product).

It won't come with a way to run blue-box (MacOS) applications, but
that's not very surprising.

> There doesn't seem to be a market for openstep, except for large
> company specific programming.  This may change with Rhapsody,
> but with a dwindling market share, and a dim future, I'm finding
> it hard to stay optimistic.  Any thoughts?

You're picking an odd time to be pessimistic for OpenStep.
While there's a number of challenges ahead for Apple, I think
this is easily the most promising time NeXTSTEP/OpenStep has
ever seen.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: Markus Pilzecker 
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: BSD filesystem (ufs/ffs) development?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 03:12:50 +0000
Organization: Technische Hochschule Darmstadt
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Gord Matzigkeit wrote:
> 
> Hi, all!
> 
> I'm finally able to install Linux on my home machine.  I've been
> running NetBSD/i386 1.2 for a long time, and I don't want to give it
> up cold turkey.
> 
> This is especially true, as NetBSD is the only connection I have to
> the Internet (via PPP), and I much prefer working and downloading
> RedHat (no CD-ROM) in my familiar environment.
> 
> So, what I need is a good way to mount my FFS partitions from Linux,
> until I have the time and patience to move all my home directories to
> ext2fs (which I may never do).
> 
> After enabling BSD disklabels in the kernel (2.0.29), I can `see' my
> BSD partitions (which live in hda3):
> 
> hda: hda1 hda2 hda3 
> 
> When I try to mount my BSD root (hda4), I get a lovely message that's
> along the lines of `fucking Sun blows me', then the mount occurs, but
> I can't see any files in the mount directory.
> 
> After investigation of the kernel sources, I discovered to my horror
> that most of the UFS filesystem calls are unimplemented!
> 
> Is there anybody working on UFS support?  If not, I guess I'll just
> have to keep using the GNU Hurd to transfer files back and forht
> between ufs and ext2fs. ;)  Either that, or I'll write the code myself.
> 
As far as I know, there's hardly anybody actually working on ufs for
linux.
If you do only need one direction of transparency, you may use u2fs for
linux, which is an alternative implementation of a [read-only] ufs.
I use it together with Nextstep and it works fine.  I had some mail
exchange
with other users (* as I did a small bug fix, they took me for the
author *)
and they reported much better stability with Gossi Gottlieb's u2fs (*
which, 
as far as I know, is the older ufs, but for curious reasons Adrian
Rodriguez 
implementation found its way into the mainstream kernel, so that Gossi's
had
to be renamed to u2fs *).

I'm very interested in the question, if u2fs is the better one.  So I
ask:
  - Is there anybody out there, who has problems with u2fs, which are
not 
    present in ufs ?
  - Is there anybody out there, who has problems with ufs, which are not 
    present in u2fs ?
If we could find a reliable answer to this question, then we would be
able to
put the right ufs-implementation into the kernel and emphasize our work
on this
one.  

I never understood, why ``switching'' on write access for a partition,
should be
such a great problem.  If somebody having experience with the inner
workings of
filesystems would consult it, and if I could find some other combatands,
then
I'd be highly interested in participating at a project for a full
featured ufs.

If you want to have a look at u2fs in the meantime, then look out for 
ufs-0.4.3.tar.gz on sunsite and mirrors.

Since mounting foreign filesystems has a kind of ``security hole'',
which
originates from the fact that uids and gids are different on different
systems,
it may be a good idea to follow a concept like vmount for Nextstep,
which 
maps a foreign filesystem onto the nfs-``api''.  Anyway -- the uid/gid
mapping
has to be done.


                              Ciao, Markus



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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Two-column Menus
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:04:09 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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Roger Peppe wrote:
> 
> On 14 Mar 1997 11:07:33 GMT, biesingert@asme.org  wrote:
> > Does anybody out there know how to handle a
> > Services Menu that has become too long i.e.
> > display it in two columns? What else could I do
> > when the lower part cannot be displayed within
> > the screen area?
> 
> it scrolls automatically when you drag the mouse off the screen. 
> (try it - click the right mouse button near the bottom of the
> screen, and then drag the mouse downwards)
> 
>   rog.

In what version of the os was this first implemented. I just
tried it on a NS3.0 box and it sure didn't scroll for me.

- Jeff Dutky
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From: wtinternet@aol.com (WTInternet)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 19 Mar 1997 04:24:01 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
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Mr. Chin, in response to the statement of silence regarding OPENSTEP
development, I would like to ask, where would good resources for learning
O-S Dev be?  I am new to programming, a long time Mac and NeXT fan, and
looking to write some code for what I believe an awesome new OS.  I read
that O-S Dev is much easier than on other platforms.

Ron


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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 19 Mar 1997 05:21:27 GMT
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On 03/14/97, James M. Curran wrote:
>
>	The other interesting thing to note is that C++ can simulate 
the
>run-time binding of ObjC.  C++ can overload the [] operator:
>
>	typedef	void * id;
>	typdef	id (ObjCmethod)(id, va_list)
>	class objCobj
>	{
>	public:
>  		  id operator[](enum selector, ....) 
>		{
>			va_list	marker;
>			va_start(markerm selector);
>			 ObjCmethod	f = dispatch(this, selector);
>			id ret = f(this, marker);	
>			return(ret);
>		}
>				
>		id operator[](string methodname, ...)
>		{	enum selector  sel = 
selector_lookup(methodname);
>			(*this)[selector]
>		}
>	};
>
>	And there after, any object derived from class objCobj could be 
used
>as:
>
>	myRect[setOrigin, 30.0, 50.00];     or
>	myRect["setOrigin", 30.0, 50.0];  or even
>
>	doIt(id obj, string meth)
>	{
>		(*obj)[meth];
>	}
>
>	which would be the equilevants of the ObjC:
>
>	[myRect setOrigin:30.0 :50.0];      and
>
>	SEL sel = sel_getUid("setOrigin");
>	[myRect perform:sel withObject:30.0 withObject:50.0];	   and
>
>	doIt(id obj, char *meth)
>	{
>		SEL set = getUid(meth);
>		[obj perform:sel];
>	}

So James,
	Did you actually try compiling that code, or did you just 
assume that it would work?  I hate to break this to you, but you can't
overload the [] operator any way you'd like.  The [] operator only 
accepts a single argument, which must evaluate to an integer.

	If you are going to try to use C++ to bash Objective C, you 
might have slightly better success if you actually knew C++ as well as 
you'd like everyone to believe, and if you knew Objective C at all from 
actually using it, rather than by reading books and coming up with 
horror stories about how "slow" it is.

>	And depending on the effeciency of selector_lookup() & 
dispatch(),
>which are essentially the same functions as ObjC provides, these
>functions could be performed with roughly the same effeciency as ObjC.
>Futher, the same myRect object could also respond to
>myRect.setOrigin(30.0, 50.0);  at the full normal C++ speed. 
>
>(OK, it'll need a bit more code to pull this off:  a table for
>seletor_lookup to lookup in, an enum of all the selectors, a table
>mapping the selectors for a class to the function that handles that
>message, and probably a wrapper function which redirects that
>parameters:
>	ObjCRectSetOrigin(Rect r, va_list l)
>	{	double	p1 = va_arg(l, double);
>		double	p2 = va_arg(l, double);
>		return(r.setOrigin(p1, p2));
>	}
>BUT -- all of this could be easily be machine generated from standard
>C++ code --- It is in fact very much like what the ClassWizard of
>Microsoft VisualC++ does)

I'll just let the Objective C compiler do all that extra work for me, 
thanks.  And I won't have to jump through nasty tricks to use it.

>(Sorry about rambling on so long with C++ code, but I wanted to show
>that I had thought about this process at length)

Which apparently wasn't long enough.

-Ken

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From: jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Hex Calculator
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 00:58:48 -0500
Organization: Columbia University
Lines: 9
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Hi, 
   I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY 
calculator(hardware). (the conversion features in the CASIOs 
are nice but are really cumbersome to use, and those nifty
software version just dont quite cut it). If anyone outta there
knows some company who sells such a thing, would you please
email me? Thanks much in advance.

-Jake 
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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: what does the term mean?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:32:23 +0100
Organization: Syndetics Research
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Roger Peppe  wrote:

> even better, check out http://www.lucent.com/inferno/
> from the press release:
> > Inferno 1.0 runs as a stand-alone operating system on small devices
> > which use Hitachi SH3, DEC StrongArm, Intel Architecture, MIPS,
> > Motorola 68030, Power PC, SPARC and ARM processors. 

Thanks for the pointer. I checked out the site but could find a version
for 680x0 or PPC, even though the form has checkboxes for Macintosh.

Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 19 Mar 1997 05:37:55 GMT
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On 03/18/97, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
>On 03/14/97, James M. Curran wrote:
>>
>>	The other interesting thing to note is that C++ can simulate 
>the
>>run-time binding of ObjC.  C++ can overload the [] operator:
>>
>>	typedef	void * id;
>>	typdef	id (ObjCmethod)(id, va_list)
>>	class objCobj
>>	{
>>	public:
>>  		  id operator[](enum selector, ....) 
>>		{
>>			va_list	marker;
>>			va_start(markerm selector);
>>			 ObjCmethod	f = dispatch(this, selector);
>>			id ret = f(this, marker);	
>>			return(ret);
>>		}
>>				
>>		id operator[](string methodname, ...)
>>		{	enum selector  sel = 
>selector_lookup(methodname);
>>			(*this)[selector]
>>		}
>>	};
>>
>>	And there after, any object derived from class objCobj could be 
>used
>>as:
>>
>>	myRect[setOrigin, 30.0, 50.00];     or
>>	myRect["setOrigin", 30.0, 50.0];  or even
>>
>>	doIt(id obj, string meth)
>>	{
>>		(*obj)[meth];
>>	}
>>
>>	which would be the equilevants of the ObjC:
>>
>>	[myRect setOrigin:30.0 :50.0];      and
>>
>>	SEL sel = sel_getUid("setOrigin");
>>	[myRect perform:sel withObject:30.0 withObject:50.0];	   and
>>
>>	doIt(id obj, char *meth)
>>	{
>>		SEL set = getUid(meth);
>>		[obj perform:sel];
>>	}
>
>So James,
>	Did you actually try compiling that code, or did you just 
>assume that it would work?  I hate to break this to you, but you can't
>overload the [] operator any way you'd like.  The [] operator only 
>accepts a single argument, which must evaluate to an integer.

Actuall, I'm on acid here.  The [] operator's single argument may be
of any type, not just an int.  Also, if you declare the operator[] 
function as a friend it would effectively have two arguments, probably 
an object reference and anything else.  In any case, the varargs stuff
won't work at all, no matter what you do.

-Ken


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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 07:23:31 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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James Curran wrote (among other stuff):
>		 id operator[](enum selector, ....) 
>		{
>			va_list	marker;
>			va_start(markerm selector);
>			 ObjCmethod	f = dispatch(this, selector);
>			id ret = f(this, marker);	
>			return(ret);
>		}
>				
>		id operator[](string methodname, ...)
>....

And Kenneth responded: 

>	Did you actually try compiling that code, or did you just 
>assume that it would work?  I hate to break this to you, but you can't
>overload the [] operator any way you'd like.  The [] operator only 
>accepts a single argument, which must evaluate to an integer.
>

I'm not sure what Kenneth is claiming here, but you can overload
[] to accept non integers. That is, after all, the way associative
arrays work.

For example, from the gray book (page 241)

         #include 

         int& assoc::operator[] (const char * p)
                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^

On the other hand, Kenneth does have a point in that James's code
clearly hasn't been tested, or even compiled in any way. For example, 

>			va_list	marker;
>			va_start(markerm selector);

ought to be

>			va_list	marker;
>			va_start(marker, selector);

and even the most advanced compiler will choke on that particular
typo. . 

Moreover, James's usage of ... in his code is somewhat confusing to me
because

>		 id operator[](enum selector, ....) 
>		{

idoesn't seem quite valid (as Kenneth said, one argument). 


Cheers,

Andy
 
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Alternative ProjectBuilder-Editor
Date: 19 Mar 1997 06:17:36 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hallo,

May be I still have to get used with the inbuild ProjectBuilder-Editor,
because there are obviously some things missing, I know from Software-
Development under OS/2.

The first thing, I would really like to see, is a short keystroke for
duplicating the actual line. Under OS/2, it was Cntrl-Y. And here?
Furthermore I would appreciate multicolor-code, to better distingush
Comments, literal strings and c-keyword.

In Info-Preferences-Misc... of the ProjectBuilder is a GroupBox "External Tools"
and therein an entry for an edito ("emacs" is default). So  what is that field for?
If I put "vi" in this field, obviously nothing happens.

Andreas


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From: taustin@ozemail.com.au (T. Austin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:46:40 +1000
Organization: Swinburne University
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References:  <332EAE22.445D@primenet.com>
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In article <332EAE22.445D@primenet.com>, "Carl A. Carlson"
 wrote:

> I was in a similar situation.  I gave up on my Mac and decided to buy a
> NeXT Station (b/w) from Spherical
> (http://www.orb.com/Inventory/index.html).  I got it  with 16 megs and 1
> gigabyte drive for $703 delivered.  It's quite a machine for the money.

This sounds perfect. Thanks. I'll check out their sight.




                                 Tristan Austin
                                 ...taustin@ozemail.com.au
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From: espel@llaic.univ-bpclermont.fr (Roger Espel Llima)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.development.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: BSD filesystem (ufs/ffs) development?
Date: 19 Mar 1997 10:06:30 GMT
Organization: LLAIC, Univ. Clermont-Ferrand 1, France
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In article <332F59B2.435551E8@rhein-neckar.netsurf.de>,
Markus Pilzecker   wrote:
| As far as I know, there's hardly anybody actually working on ufs for
| linux.
| If you do only need one direction of transparency, you may use u2fs for
| linux, which is an alternative implementation of a [read-only] ufs.
| I use it together with Nextstep and it works fine.  I had some mail
| exchange
| with other users (* as I did a small bug fix, they took me for the
| author *)
| and they reported much better stability with Gossi Gottlieb's u2fs (*
| which, 
| as far as I know, is the older ufs, but for curious reasons Adrian
| Rodriguez 
| implementation found its way into the mainstream kernel, so that Gossi's
| had
| to be renamed to u2fs *).
| 
| I'm very interested in the question, if u2fs is the better one.  So I
| ask:
|   - Is there anybody out there, who has problems with u2fs, which are
| not 
|     present in ufs ?
|   - Is there anybody out there, who has problems with ufs, which are not 
|     present in u2fs ?
| If we could find a reliable answer to this question, then we would be
| able to
| put the right ufs-implementation into the kernel and emphasize our work
| on this
| one.  
| 
| If you want to have a look at u2fs in the meantime, then look out for 
| ufs-0.4.3.tar.gz on sunsite and mirrors.

Do you know if this version of UFS will read {Free,Net,Open}BSD
filesystems on Intel machines?  On others?  The UFS that is currently in
the kernel seems to be there mainly so Linux/SPARC can read SunOS's
partitions; can u2fs do that?  

Since we appear to be at least 3 interested in getting UFS to work
better, how about we setup a mailing list (even if just a
cc-based:thing) and try to work something out?


	Roger
--
e-mail: roger.espel.llima@ens.fr
WWW page & PGP key: http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html
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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 19 Mar 1997 01:55:21 -0800
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Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) writes:

>John C. Randolph writes
>> Let's all make the point, as emphatically as possible, to the
>> marketing pukes of the world, that OpenStep is a wonderful development
>> environment, with which we will write apps that deserve to be deployed
>> on a platform that works.

>OK, but let's remember not to call them "pukes" to their faces. 8^)
>That'll be hard, I know, but sales should be stronger that way. As 
>the saying goes, "Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it."

Well, this being c.s.n.Programmer, I'm making even less effort than
usual at diplomacy.

I'm just getting really bloody sick of people parroting that "we
have to move to NT" line.  NT is not yet acceptable for any real-world
server application that I've seen, and NT for a desktop is just 
pointless.  What does it offer?  Support? Hah! Compatibility? Not even
with itself! Security? NFW! Performance? FreeBSD, NetBSD and Linux
*all* outperform it.  Where's the added value?

-jcr
---
John C. Randolph 
@"Hey, %s! You're a Nazi, and you can't spell!"

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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: changing control layers
Date: 19 Mar 1997 10:22:26 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
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On Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:26:33 -0500, "Jeffrey S. Dutky"  wrote:
> I have a program whose interface was built in IB. I want to
> add some controls that will obscure other controls some of 
> the time while, at other times, be obscured by them. Is there
> some way that I can change the front to back ordering of IB
> controls from my Objective-C code?

subviews are in "bottom first" order.

so you can move a subview v to the front with:

{
  id parent = [v superview];
  [v retain];
  [v removeFromSuperview];
  [parent addSubview:v positioned:NSWindowAbove relativeTo:nil];
  [v release];
}

or to the back by changing the NSWindowAbove to NSWindowBelow.
(if you're using nextstep, not openstep, then the retain and
release is unnecessary)

  cheers,
    rog.

####################################################################
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 08:33:44 -0500
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Nice interview with Amelio
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In article <5gduk7$9bp@lal.interserv.com>, JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com
(James M. Curran) wrote:

> In <>, 
> pjbrew@spam.free.zone--(ix.netcom.com) (Phil Brewster) wrote:
> 
> >Rephrase it however you please, James -- you have still provided
> >absolutely no evidence that the study was comprised of 'people who have
> >used a Mac for years' instead of a random sampling of Mac, Windows, and
> >dual users with equal experience on both, 
> 
>         Well, that part's easy.  The summary clearly states that it was made
> up of dual users ONLY.  It further makes no claims about the amount of
> experience they had on either machine.  And I believe that it's
> reasonable to presume that a "random sampling" of people who've used
> both Macs & Win95 in their daily office routine (as per the report),
> taken 6 month after the the release of Win95, would consist mainly of
> people who've used Macs longer than they've used Win95.

Nonsense. Who were the Win95 early adopters? People who were the biggest
Windows proponents.

You've shown nothing.

-- 
Regards,

Joe Ragosta
joe.ragosta@dol.net
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Site
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSString?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 10:57:13 -0500
Organization: Language Schools of Middlebury College
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Can anyone tell me whether NSString supports right-to-left languages, and in particular, RtL multi-glyph languages (like Arabic)? The trainer here (I am at openstep training even as I write this) is unable to answer the question and the documentation
gives me no indication.


If not, can anyone suggest a way in which Imight sub-class NSString to add this support?



-- 

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

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From: teb@eng.cam.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSReturnSign is missing
Date: 19 Mar 1997 16:38:38 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <5gp4qe$i8b@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
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Here is the authentic answer from ask_next:

From: Rajashekhar Akula 
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 12:31:15 -0500
To: teb@eng.cam.ac.uk
Subject: [107884] missing NSReturnSign
Cc: appendlog@next.com


>Hi, just going through the Tutorial for OpenStep 4.0
>but 'NSReturnSign' is missing under Images of the IB.

Hi Thomas,

The documentation is old. The updated openstep uses
the Windows way of 'Tab' moving.

Thanks,
Raj Akula, NeXT Technical Support - rakula@next.com



---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Adorning?
Date: 19 Mar 1997 18:27:25 GMT
Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc.
Lines: 24
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Cc: maury@softarc.com

In  Maury Markowitz wrote:
>   Maybe I've just not seen an example yet - or perhaps there's something
> like delegation (or perhaps it is delegation) that you use for this, but
> does OpenStep have anything like Adorner's?  These are used in most OOPS
> libs to attach one view (subview really) to another so it's Draw gets
> called when the parent's does.  It's something like the view system
> hierarchy, but the adornment is attached to the parent object directly so
> you can effectively make a subclass (say, window with toolbar) without a
> subclass.
> 
>   Does OS have something similar?  Or can you use delegation to do this in
> a way I haven't figured out yet?
> 
> Maury
> 

Maybe I'm missing the point, but just adding a subview to a view will 
accomplish this.   Perhaps this is just one of the many magic things about 
Openstep that I take for granted...

--
Mark Trombino
  mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (NEXTMail, MIME Mail okay)

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From: "Bill Keller" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 19 Mar 1997 20:02:49 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <01bc34a0$a682c150$07254e8b@carcosa>
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Garance A Drosehn  wrote in article
<5gn7c5$gfd@usenet.rpi.edu>...

> I think you're misunderstanding what Apple is doing.  The product
> you would think of as a followon to NeXTSTEP/Intel *is* the yellow
> box of Rhapsody.  All interviews I've seen imply that everything
> done for the yellow box of Rhapsody is intended for the Intel-based
> product too.  (not necessarily for OpenStep/WinNT, but for the
> MachOS-based product).

So Rhapsody is going to be (essentially) Nextstep with Mac support?  Or are
future versions of Nextstep (openstep for mach, I know) going to be
Rhapsody for Intel?  There has been alot of discussions about which Apple
technologies are going to be included in Rhapsody, and are those going to
be ported to Intel as well?
 
> You're picking an odd time to be pessimistic for OpenStep.
> While there's a number of challenges ahead for Apple, I think
> this is easily the most promising time NeXTSTEP/OpenStep has
> ever seen.

Well, I have to admit that when Apple first made the aquisition, I was a
tad skeptical.  But everyone here was so jazzed by the idea that I started
to feel a little better about it.  It has been recent Apple news that has
caused me to start doubting again.  It doesn't seem as if Amelio can get
Apple turned around, and by the time Rhapsody rolls out, how far will
Apple's market share have slipped?  Apple is going to have a hard enough
time rolling Rhapsody out, it will be something else entirely wooing users
back.  There will have to be applications that are NOT just as good as what
one could get for windows, they have to be a far cry better.


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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Adorning?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:39:12 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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  Maybe I've just not seen an example yet - or perhaps there's something
like delegation (or perhaps it is delegation) that you use for this, but
does OpenStep have anything like Adorner's?  These are used in most OOPS
libs to attach one view (subview really) to another so it's Draw gets
called when the parent's does.  It's something like the view system
hierarchy, but the adornment is attached to the parent object directly so
you can effectively make a subclass (say, window with toolbar) without a
subclass.

  Does OS have something similar?  Or can you use delegation to do this in
a way I haven't figured out yet?

Maury
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From: steve@deltos.com (Steven R. Staton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Limits on virtual IPs using LKS-PS
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 19:27:37 GMT
Organization: Waymark Internet Services Inc.
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <33303c92.14009618@news.waymark.net>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.1/32.230

I've run into a snag using Hideo Morishita's ps-if virtual IP LKS.  It
appears that even though you can all if_attach(...) with a unit number
above 9, ifconfig(8C) treats it as if the only valid unit IDs are
0...9 (ps0...ps9).  This puts a hard limit of ten virtual IPs on a
given host (or should I compile a version that uses as different
device name than 'ps'?).

Any ideas?
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From: "Bill Keller" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 19 Mar 1997 19:50:20 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <01bc349e$e776f020$07254e8b@carcosa>
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Aleksey Sudakov  wrote in article
<5gmgk3$4hk@news-central.tiac.net>...

> I do, but the same way OpenStep/Solaris is Sun's fault (DPS on top of 
> OpenLook or whatever the name of sun's widget set), OpenStep/NT is 
> Micro$oft fault. No matter how bad these two implementations are it 
> doesn't prove that OpenStep as a cross-platform solution is bad. It's 
> just a poor implementation. Let's wait for GNUstep folks show us the 
> true power of OpenStep.
> 
> Aleksey

I don't think that it's necessarily Microsoft's fault that DPS doesn't run
that well under Windows.  DPS is simply a different imaging model, and
implementing one model on top of the other is bound to be problematic. 
Couple this with the fact that NeXT had to build a mach layer that sits on
top of the NT kernel.  I think that this is the same thing Microsoft did in
order to port windows programs over to the Macintosh, they built an
emulation layer.

I was under the (obviously wrong) impression that Openstep would be more of
a defined programatic interface, with the implementation different for each
platform.  That is to say that a NSButton under mach would use DPS, under
Windows would use a HWND, under Solaris would use a Widget, and so on. 
There are other object frameworks (mostly for C++) that already do this.  I
know that this would be a little tough when subclassing existing objects,
but there would be a way to "objectify" DPS to make it portable also.

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Adorning?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 16:15:07 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
Lines: 22
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In article <5gpb6d$g4l@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>, mtrombin@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing the point, but just adding a subview to a view will 
> accomplish this.   Perhaps this is just one of the many magic things about 
> Openstep that I take for granted...

  The issue is that you don't want to change a base class (ie, Window) but
would like to change _it's_ draw behaviour.  For instance, let's say you
want the window's title bar to be drawn in purple (ignoring resources for
now), instead of having to subclass Window into MyPuprleWindow, I just
attach my Adorner object to it and it handles the drawing.

  Sounds silly right?  Why not just use the subclass?  Well a lot of
frameworks are statically bound, and not so good about replacing classes. 
So you subclass window, and your Application refuses to use MyPurpleWindow
and demands a Window (for some dumb reason or other).  I know what you're
thinking - THAT shouldn't break it, but it does.

  The mechanism is then usually also used for general attachment of views
and such.

Maury
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From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Component Software for Rhapsody
Date: 18 Mar 1997 16:53:27 GMT
Organization: Institut fuer Informatik der Universitaet Muenchen
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <5gmha7$mc@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de>
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raph@porter.as.utexas.edu (William Raphael Hix) wrote:
>    First, what is NeXT's current approach to component software?  Since
>component software seems a natural extention of the object orientation NeXT
>is famous for, I'm surprised we've heard nothing about any NeXT component 
>technology.  How does one implement component software and document centered 
>computing in OpenStep?
>
There are two major opinions about the OO approach and component approach.
Personally I believe there is a market for both technologies, and these 
markets won't overlap:
Components: Nice, easy to use, but usual huge not or hard to debug. You are 
depending on the producer. The disadvantages generally prevent big projects 
from using components.
Objects: smaller pieces of software. Usually easily exchangable if buggy. 
Accepted technology. Used normally for building components.

Ok, this was major blabla, but this is my opinion: Components will be used 
where they are already established. Normally to implement a part of a 
project, but project will never use components as key pieces of their 
software.
Objects will get used as keyparts of a software project, because you have a 
much better control over what the object is doing and in emergancy situation 
you normally can do a workaround without breaking your software (components 
need to be replaced).

>    Second, what reasons prompted Apple to drop OpenDoc from Rhapsody in
>favor of JavaBeans?  Besides the obvious cross platform advantages of 
>JavaBeans, what would prompt Apple to drop the more mature and better 
>
Dropping OpenDoc is new to me. I didn't new it befor. I only could think, 
that Apple is focusing on market 'keywords' to keep developers and make their 
system attraktiv to the mainstream. On the other hand, I was thinking that 
OpenDoc was just getting a food into the market share...

NeXT's approach is little bit different:
components: You could e.g. think of big bundles to be a component of your 
software. However bundles are dynamically loaded and objects. However many 
objects could be hidden in a bundle, which is similar to components.
All this technology is very open to new extensions, so I believe technologie 
like JavaBeans etc. could be easily integrated (don't even think about this 
using e.g. C++).

There is a future, and this/next year will be very interesting to watch 
things to come.

Greetings,

  Bernhard.


-- 
Bernhard Scholz				http://www.leo.org/~scholz/
Peanuts FTP Admin 			http://peanuts.leo.org/
scholz@leo.org, (StuSta ONLY: boerny@xenia.stusta.mhn.de)
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From: scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on Java and Newton
Date: 18 Mar 1997 17:05:23 GMT
Organization: Institut fuer Informatik der Universitaet Muenchen
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5gmi0j$mc@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de>
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Robert La Ferla  wrote:
>I definitely think it would be a commercially smart idea to provide 
>some degree of compatibility between OPENSTEP and NewtonOS.  I can 
>envision many mission critical and shrinkwrap applications that could 
>be extended past the desktop to a handheld PDA.  Integrating Java into 
>OPENSTEP and NewtonOS would make this all very possible.  In it's 
>simplest form, Newton users could use a Java-enabled web browser to 
>access OPENSTEP/Java applets.  OPENSTEP/NewtonOS for Windows CE 
>systems would also be a good idea.  I don't think Apple wants to 
>repeat the mistakes it's made with the proprietary Mac hardware.
>
>
Apple is probably going to drop the Newton. See latest press statements in 
MacWeek.

Greetings,

  Bernhard.
-- 
Bernhard Scholz				http://www.leo.org/~scholz/
Peanuts FTP Admin 			http://peanuts.leo.org/
scholz@leo.org, (StuSta ONLY: boerny@xenia.stusta.mhn.de)
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From: mshores@iastate.edu (Matt Shores)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Driver Kit with PnP
Date: 19 Mar 1997 22:50:03 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA
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Summary: Help with Plug and Play using Driver Kit
Keywords: Driver Kit Plug Play
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Hello all,
	If there is anyone out there who knows how to access ANYTHING
with a Plug and Play card, would you please inform me on how I would
do this?  I understand there is some kind of port that one uses,
however, I have no idea what to do.  I noticed that there are a few
PnP drivers that NeXT has already made... are they using their own
library calls (Driver Kit) or do they make completely separate functions
with each driver?  Help!!!

Matt



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From: "Bill Keller" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Command Line Switches
Date: 19 Mar 1997 21:43:05 GMT
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK
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Is there a list anywhere of the command line switches that Openstep handles
itself?  For example, I've seen NSUseRunningCopy and NSOpen.  Any others?

-- 
Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu)
Is it too much?  Close your eyes.
Care to look inside?  I am I.
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Adorning?
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 18:08:28 -0500
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
Lines: 14
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In article <5gpodn$krm$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> In NEXTSTEP 3.3, there's a private WindowFrame class or something like
> that which some programmers have used to change the colors of the
> title bars. There's some source floating around that does this. There is
> no NeXT-sanctioned way to do this.

  Well I used it as an example, and in this case it turned out to be a bad
one because it supports it.  I'll try to think of a better one.

  However, I have a plane at 6AM this morning to Florida for a week of
skydiving, so it'll have to wait!

Maury
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Alternative ProjectBuilder-Editor
Date: 19 Mar 1997 23:20:25 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 03/18/97, andreas@lynet.de wrote:
>Hallo,
>
>May be I still have to get used with the inbuild 
ProjectBuilder-Editor,
>because there are obviously some things missing, I know from 
Software-
>Development under OS/2.
>
>The first thing, I would really like to see, is a short keystroke for
>duplicating the actual line. Under OS/2, it was Cntrl-Y. And here?

	Is there an emacs binding for this?  You could do Cntrl-K, 
Cntrl-Y,Cntrl-Y

>Furthermore I would appreciate multicolor-code, to better distingush
>Comments, literal strings and c-keyword.
>
	4.2 offers all of this according to the release notes on 
NeXT's site.

>In Info-Preferences-Misc... of the ProjectBuilder is a GroupBox 
"External Tools"
>and therein an entry for an edito ("emacs" is default). So  what is 
that field for?
>If I put "vi" in this field, obviously nothing happens.
>

	You can also set up vi style keymappings (across all your apps 
in fact) using the Text binding stuff.



-- 
Scott Anguish               DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS
sanguish@digifix.com        Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com

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From: gary@whistler.instepmobile.com (Gary Quan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Color in DBTableView? (DBKit question)
Date: 20 Mar 1997 00:47:26 GMT
Organization: BCTEL Advanced Communications
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <5gq1eu$615$1@news.bctel.net>
Reply-To: gary@instepmobile.com(Gary Quan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: m136.instepmobile.com

Does anyone know how to set a color to a row (record) in DBTableView?

All I wish to do is color certain rows in DBTableView red.

If anyone can either suggest a solution or even where I 
might be able to find a solution, I would really, really,
really appreciate it.

Thank you.

--
Gary Quan 
Software Developer, InStep Mobile Communications Inc.
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: Re: Sun was Re: Avie confirms Rhapsody on Intel too.
Message-ID: 
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embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> In <5g6v6n$ksp@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck wrote:
> > Sun just made a major presentation at our site.  There were at least 20 
> sales 
> > people and some Sun executives.  I asked about Openstep and they asked 
(who 
> > sells that ?)  When I told them that they sell it, they told me they did 
> not 
> > think so.
> > 
> > I guess that Sun is not interested in Openstep anymore.
> > 
> > 
> I have just been notified by a Sun executive that OpenStep is alive and 
well 
> and a new release is planned.
> 

Sun really should get its message straight. While I really believe that there 
are people at Sun who get paid for doing Openstep work...it is annoying to 
see how badly almost 99% of the Sun employees are informed about 
Openstep/Solaris.

I actively tried to convince some people at a number of places to give 
Solaris/OpenStep a try...

...Sun told them "OpenStep/Solaris is not a strategic product" (would you buy 
something the vendor tells you is not a strategic product ?? This is like 
telling your customer..."we'll I have a part number and prize...the rest is 
up to you".

...while there is an educational discount for OpenStep/Sol. in the US...the 
is none in Germany. Accoridng to the Sun rep.. "we can't give a discount 
since we have to pay licence fees".  Isn't that silly !!  Sun/US can and 
Sun/Germany can't ???

...and more of that sort.

I managed to find someone from Sun Germany who at least knew what OpenStep is 
about...at least he was one of the guys who happened to install it.

Almost nobody knows what Lighthouse is part of Sun...and if they know..they 
have no idea what Lighthouse is doing.

As long as OpenStep/Solaris does not get preinstalled with a major OS 
upgrade...nobody will bother to even install it.  (ok...its useless since all 
you can run in Create...but then...it might be worth even if all you want to 
do is to run Create...Solaris lacks a comparable app anyway)

Someone told me that Solaris 2.6 would include OpenStep right away...I asked 
a Sun guy and he said this ain't true.


It would make so much sense if Sun now would really commit to OpenStep...but 
as Scott McNealy said: "I get paid to bring the most money to Suns 
shareholder" [and not for promotin good ideas]. 

Dumping AWT in favour of OpenStep would seem like a good idea...but thats not 
what Mr Sun get's paid for.

I finally gave up on advocating Solaris/OpenStep.

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:37:28 +0100
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
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Hello!

John Jensen :
> When I think about it, treating developers as a profit center _now_ would
> be the _final_ stupidity.  Nothing exists in a vacuum, to win Apple has to
> first pull developers and then pull users from other platforms.

I cannot agree more!

I think Be did the right thing in posting their DR with a (developer)
magazine.

Apple has to expect to loose some developers on the way to Rhapsody, so
they have to attract even more!

I think developers (here Non-Apple ones) are courious people in general.
If they have a (fairly stable and usable) Rhapsody DR (including DR
tools) on their table they will not be able to resist in trying it out.

If they have to go through a complicated process and pay at least $250,
just to see if the system could be useful for their work, only the fans
and hardliners will even know about it.

Also consider the time it takes for a dev to learn the all new APIs. The
sooner people get hands on Rhapsody the better!

So, Apple, give us the Rhapsody DR for free and we will build the
software You need to survive!

Greetings

   Dirk

-- 
           Site of the Day: http://www.microsnot.com/

    Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany
          http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: No rush of postings from Mac developers was Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 03:37:32 +0100
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
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Michael Makhlouf :
> I would be asking a lot of questions if I could run OPENSTEP on my Mac.
[...]
> Although I am not a "real" developer (shareware
> only), I believe that my viewpoint applies to most Mac programmers. As long
> as there is nothing of OPENSTEP on the Mac, ...

Yes, it does.
I hope, Apple will make it very easy for us to get hand on the Rhapsody
DR.

Dirk


-- 
           Site of the Day: http://www.microsnot.com/

    Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany
          http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting access to Rhapsody DR
Date: 20 Mar 1997 03:05:56 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen) wrote:
> Also consider the time it takes for a dev to learn the all new
> APIs. The sooner people get hands on Rhapsody the better!

> So, Apple, give us the Rhapsody DR for free and we will build
> the software You need to survive!

I can't agree more.  Apple not only needs to give out free "Beta"
DR's so lots of developers can get in on it...but also offer great
developer pricing on new rhapsody capable machines.  I know I will
be in the market for a new PPC machine ONLY to try out the new
Rhapsody Dev tools.  The project I'm working on is currently happily
situated on Intel hardware, and quite frankly, no one at work wants
to move from intel.  I personally would like to try out the PPC
platform and think it will be better for development (particularly
dual and quad processor versions).  Anyway, a developer seed program
could go a long way at making some headway at work...

Though, I don't know how apple is going to know that I'm a dev,
when I can't even disclose much of anything about for who or why
and the particulars of what I'm developing...
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...

monoChrome, Inc.          | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer   | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School       | Jag talar inte svenska )^>  %^)  =^)
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From: halldj@lis.ab.ca (Donald Hall)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 17:45:13 -0700
Organization: none
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In article ,
jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck) wrote:

> Hi, 
>    I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY 
> calculator(hardware). (the conversion features in the CASIOs 
> are nice but are really cumbersome to use, and those nifty
> software version just dont quite cut it). If anyone outta there
> knows some company who sells such a thing, would you please
> email me? Thanks much in advance.
> 
> -Jake 

About 10 years ago Hewlett Packard had an excellent programmer's
calculator. You should check with an HP dealer to see if they still make
them.

Don

-- 
Donald S. Hall, Ph.D.
halldj@lis.ab.ca
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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 02:08:50 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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Weiyuan W Chin wrote:
> 
> It has occured to me that there isn't a rush by Mac developers
> to develop under the OPENSTEP API's.  Reading over the press
> releases, I get the sense that one could avoid the re-write
> to OPENSTEP API's and just recompile an app written in
> Codewarrior for OPENSTEP. Now, would that result in an app that
> basically translates API calls to OPENSTEP calls?  Would this
> result in an app that runs as fast as a fully native OPENSTEP
> app?  Are developers just going ahead with their current
> development plans and a) hope that the compability for developers
> is as complete as the user environment b) hoping that the OPENSTEP
> portion of Rhapsody will fail so that they can do things the way
> they always have c) hoping that Rhapsody will fail so that they
> can write Be apps d) something else??
> 

I seriously doubt that many Mac developers are hoping for Rhapsody
or OPENSTEP to fail since they are the brightest hope for the future
of Mac development. Most of the big Mac developers have been pretty
willing to make the big leaps when Apple has provided new platforms
(look at the jump from 68k to PPC or the jump from System 6 to 7).
The only thing that they ask, I think, is that there be reasonable
support for their old style products during the transition and that
reasonable devolopment tools be made available.

> Not knowing PowerPlant, MacApp, or CodeWarrior, can someone
> point out how they compare to ProjectBuilder, IB, AppKit,
> FoundationKit, etc.?
> 
> I just don't see the rush of newbie OPENSTEP programming
> questions that I had expected.  Maybe it's just that most Mac
> developers don't have access to a NeXT/Intel/SPARC to do OPENSTEP
> development yet.
> 

I think the main reason that you don't see a rush of newbie questions
is that Mac developers are not newbies. These people are experienced
programmers and a new OS is just not that difficult to them. Further,
OPENSTEP is not "new" in the sense that BeOS is new. OPENSTEP has been
around for many years. There are plenty of programmers out there who
have used OPENSTEP on one platform or another. There are a fair number
of quality books out there on the subject of OPENSTEP programming.

When you are trying to learn to write code for an embrionic OS you
need to get out and ask all kinds of stupid questions to other folx
also struggling along with the new baby. Noone knows quite what works,
not even the folx who wrote the thing, so there are lots of "newbie"
questions being asked. With OPENSTEP, however, there is a large body
of established lore to which a neophyte can refer and there are a fair
number of experienced programmers that companies can hire to train
their staffs or do the programming for them.

Another point is that it has only been a few months since Apple
bought NeXT and many developers who need to get their feet wet with
OPENSTEP are probably still just getting aquainted with the system.

I only aquired my NeXT box and got it set up two weeks ago. In those
two weeks I have made it about 300 pages into the Garfinkel/Mahoney
book. In a couple more weeks you should have a fair crop of former
Mac developers who have gotten just enough of a taste of OPENSTEP
to know what questions they need to ask.

When you consider that a neophyte OPENSTEP programmer could need to
learn 1) the NeXTSTEP GUI, 2) Objective-C, and 3) the OPENSTEP API
and programming tools, I don't think its too much of a suprise that
it is taking a few months to see their responses flooding the NGs.

-Jeff Dutky
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From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References:  <5gmlhr$g1v@shelob.afs.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 06:02:06 GMT
Lines: 21
Sender: cdouty@netcom18.netcom.com

In article <5gmlhr$g1v@shelob.afs.com>,
Gregory H. Anderson  wrote:
>John C. Randolph writes
>> Let's all make the point, as emphatically as possible, to the
>> marketing pukes of the world, that OpenStep is a wonderful development
>> environment, with which we will write apps that deserve to be deployed
>> on a platform that works.
>
>OK, but let's remember not to call them "pukes" to their faces. 8^)
>That'll be hard, I know, but sales should be stronger that way. As 
>the saying goes, "Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it."

I'd make that "_especially_ when you don't mean it." :-)

	-Chris

-- 
Christopher Douty -  Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
	cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities.  These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
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From: wolfgang@amadeus.m.eunet.de (Wolfgang Keller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Component Software for Rhapsody
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.system
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 1997 21:07:27 +0100
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Maury Markowitz  wrote:

> From a development
> standpoint, OLE makes a _lot_ more sense under OpenStep than OpenDoc.
> 
>   On the other hand OLE maintains the application centric nature of
> computing.  

*snip*

>  The current implementation was rather
> flawed 

Imho this is a *very* polite way to express that OLE is *rather*
unusable for almost all productive work.

>(open a second text document, and it _might_ open in the first
> one's context, or it might not) it's the idea that's interesting.  Is this
> the model that people want to see in the future?  

Personally, I think that OLE is mis-designed (crap).

It does not allow the user to get rid of those office monsters, it only
allows to implement little 'plug-ins' like equation editors and such, as
it doesn't support anything that's longer than one single page.

Have you ever tried to use OLE to integrate Excel tables and charts,
equations etc. into a real-world document that's longer than those
ridiculous three-page demoes at exhibitions? Let's say, 50 OLE 'objects'
in a 100-page document? I've tried it and found out it is impossible.
And then I had to re-do almost all the work with Framemaker.

F'up2 comp.sys.mac.system

-- 
Wolfgang Keller               

Zu Risiken und Nebenwirkungen von Junkmail lesen Sie 
de.admin.net-abuse.mail und fragen sie Ihren Postmaster oder Provider
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From: taustin@ozemail.com.au (T. Austin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on a DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:52:30 +1000
Organization: Swinburne University
Lines: 20
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Since hearing about 'Spherical' 



where they sell cheap NeXT cubes. I've been looking down that avenue
rather than trying to run it on the Mac, which so far sounds unlikely to
happen.

If I were to fork out the money for a NeXT cube, does anyone know if these
machines are going to be able to run Rhpsody when it's released? If I'm
going to buy a machine, I'd rather it didn't have a useful lifetime of a
few months. I'd be better off buying a cheap PC.

Any thoughts?




                                          Tristan Austin
                                             ...taustin@ozemail.com.au
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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Why lose "return self" in Openstep?
Date: 20 Mar 1997 09:01:34 GMT
Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc.
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	<5gphah$80i$1@sys10.cambridge.uk.psi.net>
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Cc: richard@brainstorm.co.uk.

In <5gphah$80i$1@sys10.cambridge.uk.psi.net> Richard Frith-Macdonald wrote:
> "Andrew J. Smith"  wrote:
> >Mark Trombino wrote:
> >> "Previously, methods returned self by convention. Some methods return 
self to
> >> indicate success and nil to indicate failure. Returning self to indicate 
a
> >> Boolean value or returning self without any associated meaning made the 
API
> >> more confusing."
> >> 
> >> I can live with this convention, but I don't know if I agree with it.  I
> >> don't think that it made the API anymore confusing, but it did make my 
code a
> >> little more elegant.
> >
> >While I'm certainly not an Objective-C wizard, I understand that the 
reason for this
> >is to increase performance of DOE (Distributed Objects Everywhere?)
> >programs.
> >If "return self" is used in a program that has been segmented over a 
network,
> >then the object is packaged up and returned over the network.  This is
> >not usually necessary and can create a severe performance problem.
> >
> >Someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong.
> >
> 
> I think this is probably wrong -
> When a method returns self, it would return a Proxy, not a copy of the 
object,
> and the amount of data sent over the network would be minimal.  And with 
the
> retain-release conventions used, the Proxy should be auto-released unless 
your
> code retains it, so you don't even need to worry about getting loads of 
local
> Proxy objects hanging around.
> Perhaps the Openstep release notes are actually telling the truth, and the
> people at next really did just think that the old convention was confusing.
> Perhaps they have had customer feedback to that effect?
> 

Someone mentioned that methods that are expecting a return value need to wait 
for that value to be returned before they can continue.  Methods that don't 
can just continue.  So, its a performance issue, mostly in regards to P/DO. 
...

--
Mark Trombino
  mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (NEXTMail, MIME Mail okay)

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 19:57:54 GMT
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In <>, 
petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:

>In article <5gdbq0$3p1@lal.interserv.com>,
>James M. Curran  wrote:

>	[Example of C++ implementation of Objective-C runtime dispatch...]	

>	Alternative possibility:
>	[snipped]

	That's good too, however, we'd really need the enum selector, because
doing a full text string lookup for each dispatch would move this from
"sluggish" to "incredible slow".  My version mainly implements it the
way it is handled in ObjC.



       Truth,
       James

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From: Timur Alavidze 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Loading bundles?
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:16:04 +0300
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Hello,

I have a class (say NSMyBaseClass) that I have made into a bundle. 
I try to implement a subclass of the NSMyBaseClass and include it in
other bundle.
When I try to load these two bundles, the second one produces a load
error. 
How can I have this class and its subclass exist in DIFFERENT bundles?

Timur Alavidze
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From: smolny@pankow.mpiib-berlin.mpg.de (Bertram Smolny)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.misc,comp.protocols.smb
Subject: SAMBA and faxing
Date: 20 Mar 1997 14:33:42 GMT
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Hi,
is there a way to send faxes from i.e. W95 via SAMBA by NeXTSTEP ?
(NXFAX or JollyFax).
This can be a good way to use a powerfull tool from NeXTSTEP.
Have anyone experiences with the HYLAFAX-Client for W$$95 and SAMBA ?

please send e-mail

reagrds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bertram Smolny			Fon: ++49 30/2802-6154
MPI f. Infektionsbiologie	Fax: ++49 30/2802-6406
Monbijoustr.2  D-10117 Berlin	e-mail: smolny@mpiib-berlin.mpg.de
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Two-column Menus
Date: 20 Mar 1997 18:12:08 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
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On Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:04:09 -0500, "Jeffrey S. Dutky"  wrote:
> > it scrolls automatically when you drag the mouse off the screen. 
> > (try it - click the right mouse button near the bottom of the
> > screen, and then drag the mouse downwards)

> In what version of the os was this first implemented. I just
> tried it on a NS3.0 box and it sure didn't scroll for me.

i think this feature was probably introduced in 3.2

i've just checked it and it works under openstep 4.0 and nextstep 3.3

  rog.

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From: jimg@abacus.com (Jim Gagnon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: AppKit and Undo
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 10:38:15 -0800
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I've noticed a bit of talk about lack of built-in support for Undo in
the NeXT AppKit and I was wondering if a third party built a subclass of
NSObject that supported full undo and history documents, and allowed
full transaction/nested transaction support, would developers find this
attractive enough to license?  I have built this technology before for
other dynamic object systems, and feel it could be brought to the
NeXT/Rhapsody platform.  Would developers be willing to pay a modest
license fee for it? (say $1000/year for a commercial product).

Lemme know.  If I hear enough interest, I'll gladly drop the Windows
project I'm working on and build an undo system that'll beat the pants
off of the ones Taligent, OpenDoc and Cairo used.

Jim Gagnon
####################################################################
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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Rejoice! BSD 4.4 is coming
Date: 20 Mar 1997 14:16:24 -0800
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
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Well, I just heard it from the fourth source inside NeXT's engineering
groups, and what I'm hearing is that the BSD code in Rhapsody is
*finally* getting upgraded to BSD 4.4!

This means we get: append-only files and filesystems, the LFS, 64-bit
filesystems (i.e, no more 2 gig partition limit!)

NOw we just need an aoutfit to make Rhapsody-based servers.  
Think about a company that relates to Apple like Auspex relates to 
Sun.

Would be nice..

-jcr

####################################################################
From: "Arne Hrseth" 
Subject: WO, ActiveX and MS Visual InterDev
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <01bc3580$fb44b000$816e13c2@terra.internet.no>
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Date: 20 Mar 97 22:47:46 GMT
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How do you communicate with an ActiveX component in WO? Through a
COM-interface?

How do you convince a fanatic MS worshipper that WO is better than MS
Visual InterDev? (Must be very convincing considering the redicoulous price
difference in favour of MS Visual InterDev).

Please cc reply to arneha@internet.no


Arne Hrseth
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 04:34:19 GMT
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In <>, 
Charles William Swiger  wrote:

>Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 15-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
>by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
>>> Okay, so?  If you've got to access the ivar through a member function in
>>> both C++ and Obj-C, we aren't comparing the speed of doing four or so
>>> integer operations with a couple of Obj-C method dispatches, now are we?
>>> We're comparing the speeds of C++ method dispatches versus Obj-C
>>> dispatches.
>>  
>>      No, we ARE comparing the speed of doing four or so integer operations
>> with a couple of ObjC method dispatches.  You are missing the point.
>> In C++ a member function can be inlined.  ie, I can write:
>>         x = y;
>> and the compiler will see that as:
>>         x.realval = y.realval;
>> and generate the code appropriately.

>Wrong-- you aren't copying the objects x and y by doing that, you're
>just exchanging one of their ivars.  And if that's all you want to do,
>you can code the exact same thing in Obj-C with the same four or so
>integer operations and get the same performance you'd get from C++.

	No... You keep missing the point.  In my (admittedly pathological)
example, "realval" is the only irrelevant part of the object. (The
rest could be padding for alignment or a scratchpad area).  Hence by
copying that one member variable, I've effectively copied the value of
the object.

>However, if you're not going to break encapsulation, you have to access
>ivars through method dispatch instead of directly.  Ie, you have to call
>[x realval] or x.realval() to get that value since you have to do some
>type of calculation in order to compute the response instead of simply
>returning a ivar from a structure.

	But, I'm not breaking encapsulation!!  All I'm doing in my code is
writing "x = y;"  (english translation - "copy object y into object x
-- all implementation details left up to class designer")  And if the
class designer were to change the implementation (eg, made the essense
of the object contained in two variables, realval1 & realval2 for
instance, instead of one), my code would not change.  (The assembler
code output by the compiler would to:
	x.realval1 = y.realval2;
	x.realval2 = y.realval2;
but that's not my concern -- all thoses details are encapsulated
inside the class definition.

	I think part of what you're missing, is you don't fully understand
C++'s operator overloading.  In C++, I can define what = means for a
object.  Hence, as the designer of a class, I can specify exactly what
members need to be copied and how they should be copied.  But, as a
user of a class, all I need to know is that saying "x = y;" handles it
all. THAT'S the true essense of OOP, and ObjC can only approximate
that....


>Under Obj-C, it's common for you to possibly have many implementations
>of the -realval method (different subclasses might override it, or you
>might add a category or do a poseAs, etc).  You can't inline the method
>implementation at compile time if you're going to deal with objects
>which interact at runtime. 
	No, you can't inline method for object that mutate at run time. As I
demonstrated elsewhere:
	class B { virtual void print() {cout << "B::print(); << endl;} };
	class D: public B 
		{ virtual void print() {cout << "D::print(); << endl;} };

	func(B *pB)
	{	B     b;
		D     d;
		b.print(); // known B, inlined
		d.print(); // known D, inlined
		pB->print(); // could be B or D
			     // uses virtual call.
	}

> And, to compare the equivalent under C++,
>you're talking about using virtual functions with those templates of
>yours you keep advocating, which means you end up creating intermediate
>classes.

	Actually, virtual function -OR- templates, depending on the situation
(its very rare to need both at once).  And, I have no idea how you are
connecting these to "intermediate classes". 

>> That is what is possible with early binding, and what you have to give up
>> if you insist that it's not real OOP unless it's late-bound.

>That's exactly right.  You're not really doing OOP if you break
>encapsulation, now are you?

	But I'm not the one advacating breaking encapsolation!

>Let's acknowledge that if you want to break encapsulation, and do
>binding at compile time, that it would be faster than dynamic binding. 
>However, I already demonstrated that you can break encapsulation under
>Obj-C and get the exact same performance you could get from C++, which
>was +/- four integer ops for our comparison.

	Yes, but I did it WITHOUT breaking encapsulation.

>James, you try to keep comparing compile-time binding under C++ to
>dynamic binding under Obj-C, and it's simply not a reasonable
>comparision because you can do compile-time binding under Obj-C and get
>the same exact code as you would from C++.

	Yes, but I did it WITHOUT breaking encapsulation.

	[O(n) analysis snipped]

>The two algorithms will have approximately a performance differance of
>(c1/c2) when n is large enough that k1 and k2 don't matter, but that is
>a constant factor-- which is the same algorithmic performance.
	You misunderstood what I meant by "more relevant". I meant if n is
small, c1 is one second and c2 is two seconds, and the difference is
not particularly relevant. If n is bigger, c1 is 30 seconds, and c2 is
one minute, ie more relevant...

>Isn't it odd how the class hierachies I've seen from C++ tend to be
>horribly overbloated with intermediate classes and so forth, whereas
>Obj-C class hierachies tend to use categories, protocols, and
>forwarding/delegation to avoid creating unnecessary classes.

	Well, I don't know much about categories, protocols and forwarding
etc, so I can't comment on that, but a class models a concept. Why do
we need several different methods to handle the same idea? (And I'll
still not sure what you mean be "unnecessary classes")

>>> Sure, but you can achieve the same exact thing with Obj-C by memoizing
>>> the function implementation associated with a method and calling that
>>> directly, or by dereferencing an ivar directly from the structure
>>> instead of using an accessor function.
>>
>>         Yes, but the former method is not a language feature, but an ugly,
>> burdensome workaround for a language failing, and the latter method
>> violates encapsulation, and would cause real world problems in the
>> objects implemention were to change.

>Yep-- it's not graceful, it's not pretty, it violates encapsulation, and
>it's much harder to maintain.
>Very reminiscent of C++ code, come to think of it....

	HA! One would think that such a cheap (and unaccurate) shot would be
beneath you.  OK, Given the class:
	class Point
	{	int	x;
		int	y;
	public:
		Point(int X, int Y) { x= X; y=Y;};
		operator=(Point rhs) {x=rhs.x; y=rhs.y;}
		virtual print() {cout << "(" << x << "," << y << ")" }
	};

	[comparable ObjC class omitted]

	Now let's see what you can do with it.
Creation on automatic object (on stack):
C++:	Point Pt(10,20);
ObjC:	Can't be done.
(advantage C++)

Creation in Free store:
C++	Point	*pPt = new Point(10,20);
ObjC:	Point	*Pt = [[Point alloc] init:10,20];
(I kinda prefer the C++ syntax, but that's a matter of taste; we'll
call it a draw)

Shallow copy:
C++:	pPt1 = pPt2;
ObjC:	Pt1 = Pt2;
(draw)

Deep Copy:
C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;
ObJC:	Pt1 = [[Point alloc] init:Pt2];
(Again I prefer the C++ syntax, but, this time I think it's clear
enough to say advantage C++)

effecient deep copy:
C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;	// inlining handled by compiler
			// encapsolation maintained
ObjC:	Pt1->x = Pt2->x; // inlining handled by programmer
	Pt1->y = Pt2->y; // encapsolation violated.
(advantage C++)

polymorphic method call:
C++:	pPt->print();
ObjC:	[Pt print];
(draw)

effecient polymorphic call:
C++:	pPt->print();
ObjC:	func	f;
	f = sel_getMethod(Point, @selector(print));
	f();
(OK, I made that ObjC syntax up, since I don't know the actual syntax,
but I'm pretty sure it's close, and unless the real one is actually
very different, I'd say we'd have to call this advantage C++)

very effecient method call when run-time polymorphism isn't needed
(ie, object actual type is known)
C++:	Pt.print();
Obj:	can't be done.
(advantage C++)

	
	In other words, the C++ code is always graceful, pretty, encapsolated,
and easier to maintain.

       Truth,
       James

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 20 Mar 1997 20:06:40 GMT
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The ignorance of C++ advocates is stunning!
The example below is just simple polymorphisim as described.  Note that all 
of the methods MUST be virtual for the example to work.

Several comments were implied.  
First that the absence of "constructors" is somehow a problem.  Constructors 
are one of the worst mis-features of C++.  All kinds of special rules about 
what can and can not be done in constructors greatly complicates the 
language.  Objective-C does not need any of that.  If you want to control 
memory allocation, overload +allocWithZone: or +alloc.  That is seldom 
necessary or desired.  Overload -init to do most useful class initialization.

C++ suffers from the fragile base class syndrome.  Note the following code:
class Node {
  protected:
    Node		*nextNode;
  public:
    Node();
    Node *nextNode();
    void setNextNode(Node *aNode = NULL);
};

class TwoWayNode : public Node {
  protected:
    TwoWayNode		*previousNode;
  public:
    TwoWayNode ();
    TwoWayNode *previousNode();
    void setPreviousNode(TwoWayNode *aNode = NULL);
};

Assume reasonable implementations for the above classes.

TwoWayNode A;
TwoWayNode B
TwoWayNode C
A.setNextNode(B);					// This works 
C.setPreviousNode(A.nextNode());	// This does not! (fragile base class)

Of course, countless people including Stroustrup (sp) are aware of the 
problems of C++.  Refer to the mountains of criticism by other parties.  I 
have managed and participated in large C++ projects.  Useful applications can 
be built with C++ obviously.  It is just harder to do and produces fragile 
results.

In <332FE836.1567@claris.com> Richard Cave wrote:
> Tony, you're comparing Apples and Oranges.  A more appropriate C++
> example might be:
> 
> class SuperClass {
> public:
> 	SuperClass();				//Note ObjC does not have this at all
> 	virtual void init();		// You can do this in ObjC
> 	virtual void describe();	
> };
> 
> SuperClass::SuperClass(){
> // do initialization stuff
> // note that ObjC has no concept of a constructor
> }
> 
> void SuperClass::init(){this->describe();}
> 
> void SuperClass::describe() { printf("I am Super"); }
> 
> ////////////////////////////////////
> 
> class SubClass : public SuperClass{
> 	SubClass()
> 	virtual void describe();
> };
> 
> SubClass::SubClass(){
> // do SubClass specific initialization
> }
> 
> void SubClass::describe() { printf("I am Sub"); }
> 
> main (int argc, char** argv) {
> 
> SuperClass* super;
> SubClass*   sub;
> 
> (super = new SuperClass)->init();
> (sub   = new SubClass)->init();
> }
> //
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> This will generate the output you expect.  There is no dynamic messaging
> in the ObjC sense going on here.  This is simple polymorphism and any OO
> language can do it.
> 
> As for your glorious factory example, this is used all the time in C++.
> It is not ugly, and it is not painful.  You don't need ObjC to do object
> factories.  I can even do this in straight C.
> 
> Richard Cave
> Claris
> 

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 04:34:30 GMT
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In <<5gjotg$h8j$1@news.internetmci.com>>, 
Michael.Gentry@m-c-i.com (Michael Gentry) wrote:

>On 03/14/97, James M. Curran wrote:
>>Nevertheless, there are cases where you DO need a deep copy, and
>>WOULD require a method like the copyfrom I cited above.....

>Are you suggesting in C++ one NEVER needs to deep copy an object?  And 
>if one needs to deep copy a C++ object, that it is just as fast as 
>pointer assignment?

	Since in C++,  most objects are directly accessed instead of
indirectly (through pointers) most copies are deep copies. And since
C++ objects tend to be small, and their assignment operators often
inlined, the speed inwhich a C++ object can be deep copied is close to
the speed of a pointer assignment.


       Truth,
       James

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From: ga@ed4u.com (G. Gordon Apple, PhD)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:22:03 -0800
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In article <5gs5cg$ja21@castor.cca.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:

> C++ suffers from the fragile base class syndrome.  Note the following code:
> class Node {
>   protected:
>     Node                *nextNode;
>   public:
>     Node();
>     Node *nextNode();
>     void setNextNode(Node *aNode = NULL);
> };
> 
> class TwoWayNode : public Node {
>   protected:
>     TwoWayNode          *previousNode;
>   public:
>     TwoWayNode ();
>     TwoWayNode *previousNode();
>     void setPreviousNode(TwoWayNode *aNode = NULL);
> };
> 
> Assume reasonable implementations for the above classes.
> 
> TwoWayNode A;
> TwoWayNode B
> TwoWayNode C
> A.setNextNode(B);                                       // This works 
> C.setPreviousNode(A.nextNode());        // This does not! (fragile base class)
> 

   What does this have to do with the fragile base class problem?  You
simply made a mistake in your declarations.  "previousNode" probably
should have been declared a Node*, not  a TwoWayNode*, depending on what
you really wanted to do. I certainly don't see that as a fault in the
language.

  You are right that ctors are fraught with traps for the unwary. 
However, many of us consider them to be one of the best features of the
language.

-- 
G. Gordon Apple, PhD
The Ed4U Project
Advanced Communications Engineering, Inc.
Redondo Beach, CA
ga@ed4u.com
www.ed4u.com
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: An actual NEXTSTEP programming post
Date: 21 Mar 1997 07:13:34 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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Recently I've been working on a project which uses DO in order to
handle threads vs. the AppKit. Basically, I vend my application
subclass object over a port, and a thread connects to it, and sends
a message when a condition occurs.

This works great. However, I'm also using 3.3 FoundationKit, and
using some autorelease methods of the Foundation's classes within
the method that's invoked over DO. Even though the *very* first
line in the method is:

	NSAutoreleasePool *localPool = [NSAutoreleasePool new];

and the last is

	[localPool release];

I see on the console:

Mar 21 02:06:56 [4912] *** autorelease for dwy [0x28a5f0]: No pool in place

among other similar messages of varying string values. What's up?

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:59:15 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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In article <5gs5cg$ja21@castor.cca.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:

> The ignorance of C++ advocates is stunning!

Uhh, ok. nice way to start things...

> The example below is just simple polymorphisim as described.  Note that all 
> of the methods MUST be virtual for the example to work.

are you referring to the quoted example, which you didn't address, or your
own example?

> 
> Several comments were implied.  
> First that the absence of "constructors" is somehow a problem.  Constructors 
> are one of the worst mis-features of C++.  All kinds of special rules about 
> what can and can not be done in constructors greatly complicates the 
> language.  Objective-C does not need any of that.  If you want to control 
> memory allocation, overload +allocWithZone: or +alloc.  That is seldom 
> necessary or desired.  Overload -init to do most useful class initialization.

Constructors are nice syntactic sugar. They are handy for some things like
locks, etc. but not necessary for OO design...

> 
> C++ suffers from the fragile base class syndrome.  Note the following code:

erm, the following code doesn't demonstrate the fragile base class
syndrome at all. 'Fragile base class' refers to the fact that subclasses
of a class need to be recompiled if the memory layout of the base class
changes. Your code demonstrates that you can't down-cast a pointer.

> class Node {
>   protected:
>     Node                *nextNode;
>   public:
>     Node();
>     Node *nextNode();
>     void setNextNode(Node *aNode = NULL);
> };
> 
> class TwoWayNode : public Node {
>   protected:
>     TwoWayNode          *previousNode;
>   public:
>     TwoWayNode ();
>     TwoWayNode *previousNode();
>     void setPreviousNode(TwoWayNode *aNode = NULL);
> };
> 
> Assume reasonable implementations for the above classes.
> 
> TwoWayNode A;
> TwoWayNode B
> TwoWayNode C
> A.setNextNode(B);                                       // This works 
> C.setPreviousNode(A.nextNode());        // This does not! (fragile base class)

you're right, it doesn't work, but it has nothing to do with the fragile
base class problem. 

Why should it work? You're trying to pass a Node* to something that only
works with TwoWayNode*s. (and, BTW, it won't compile since
A.setNextNode(B); is trying to pass an object by reference instead of
passing a Node*)

> 
> Of course, countless people including Stroustrup (sp) are aware of the 
> problems of C++.  Refer to the mountains of criticism by other parties.  I 
> have managed and participated in large C++ projects.  Useful applications can 
> be built with C++ obviously.  It is just harder to do and produces fragile 
> results.

especially when you don't know what you are talking about...

[original poster's example snipped. it was apparently quoted for no reason]

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on a DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:02:34 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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T. Austin wrote:
> 
> Since hearing about 'Spherical'
> 
> 
> 
> where they sell cheap NeXT cubes. I've been looking down that
> avenue rather than trying to run it on the Mac, which so far
> sounds unlikely to happen.
> 
> If I were to fork out the money for a NeXT cube, does anyone know
> if these machines are going to be able to run Rhpsody when it's
> released? If I'm going to buy a machine, I'd rather it didn't have
> a useful lifetime of a few months. I'd be better off buying a
> cheap PC.
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 

I bought a NeXTcube and NeXTstation that were being surplussed
by my school and I'm rather happily developing on the NeXTstation
at this moment. I figured that I could get up and running faster
by buying one of these systems than by trying to put together
an Intel box that would run OPENSTEP.

For the money I spent ($650 for two computers and a printer) I
might have been able to throw together a low end clone box but
it wouldn't have included two monitors (17" megapixel) and it
wouldn't have looked as cool sitting on my desk. Further it
could have been A LOT more trouble getting OPENSTEP to run on
bargain basement PC parts than it has been on the original
black hardware.

Nonetheless, I figured that I could afford to blow $650 on a
system that was little more than a learning aid and would be
discarded in a year or less. If you want something that will
last awhile I'd buy a middle to high end PC, fully configured,
that NeXT will guarantee will work with OPENSTEP (I think that
they have a hardware compatability list just like WinNT). If
you got a P166 or P200 with a spiff monitor it should be a
sweet machine for a couple of years, at least.

I guess that I'm advising you to buy a PC, but not the bargain
basement variety. If it's longevity you are concerned with then
you will have to shell out the bucks, PC or otherwise. And, I
stress, you cannot be certain that a bargain basement PC will
be compatible with OPENSTEP.

If it is price, however, that concerns you then I would suggest
that you get one of the old NeXT machines. You might have to
discard it shortly, but in the meantime you will have a problem
free machine to play and learn with.

As a last note: I have been so pleased by the stability of my
NeXTstation that I am considering buying a compatible PC laptop
on which to run OPENSTEP for Mach for Intel. The NeXTstation
just doesn't crash! I can code and test and code and test and
code and play games and code and netsurf and test and code and
the thing won't even hickup. That's not something I can say for
my Mac. (which I still love dearly, but the NeXT is turning my
head...)

- Jeff Dutky
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From: taustin@ozemail.com.au (T. Austin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on a DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:02:50 +1000
Organization: Swinburne University
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> I bought a NeXTcube and NeXTstation that were being surplussed
> by my school and I'm rather happily developing on the NeXTstation
> at this moment. I figured that I could get up and running faster
> by buying one of these systems than by trying to put together
> an Intel box that would run OPENSTEP.
> 
> For the money I spent ($650 for two computers and a printer) I
> might have been able to throw together a low end clone box but
> it wouldn't have included two monitors (17" megapixel) and it
> wouldn't have looked as cool sitting on my desk. Further it
> could have been A LOT more trouble getting OPENSTEP to run on
> bargain basement PC parts than it has been on the original
> black hardware.
> 
> Nonetheless, I figured that I could afford to blow $650 on a
> system that was little more than a learning aid and would be
> discarded in a year or less. If you want something that will
> last awhile I'd buy a middle to high end PC, fully configured,
> that NeXT will guarantee will work with OPENSTEP (I think that
> they have a hardware compatability list just like WinNT). If
> you got a P166 or P200 with a spiff monitor it should be a
> sweet machine for a couple of years, at least.
> 
> I guess that I'm advising you to buy a PC, but not the bargain
> basement variety. If it's longevity you are concerned with then
> you will have to shell out the bucks, PC or otherwise. And, I
> stress, you cannot be certain that a bargain basement PC will
> be compatible with OPENSTEP.
> 
> If it is price, however, that concerns you then I would suggest
> that you get one of the old NeXT machines. You might have to
> discard it shortly, but in the meantime you will have a problem
> free machine to play and learn with.
> 
> As a last note: I have been so pleased by the stability of my
> NeXTstation that I am considering buying a compatible PC laptop
> on which to run OPENSTEP for Mach for Intel. The NeXTstation
> just doesn't crash! I can code and test and code and test and
> code and play games and code and netsurf and test and code and
> the thing won't even hickup. That's not something I can say for
> my Mac. (which I still love dearly, but the NeXT is turning my
> head...)
> 
> - Jeff Dutky

It certainly sounds pretty good.

I've heard of companies running OpenStep wanting to stick with Rhapsody on
Intel machines when it is released. Is this just because they don't want
to upgrade their hardware to the PowerPC platform due to cost? I just
can't see why they would want to stick with an obviously less superior
platform when they can upgrade to the latest in technology that still has
a lot of head room for improvement.

When you say the NeXT is turning your head, what are you implying? I mean,
in some form or another, OpenStep is going to be running on the Mac soon
anyway.

Anyway, I'm still not sure what I'm going to get. I've been getting so
many varied reports on NeXT cubes and their useful life time that I'm not
sure exactly what the situation is.




                                          Tristan Austin
                                          ...taustin@ozemail.com.au
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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 21 Mar 1997 12:38:36 GMT
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
>	In other words, the C++ code is always graceful, pretty, encapsolated,
>and easier to maintain.

alertArea->displayTextColorBlinkInterval("Connection dropped", RED, YES, FAST);

[alertArea displayText:"Connection dropped" color:RED blink:YES interval:FAST];

Which is easier to follow?

Tony
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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 21 Mar 1997 12:17:38 GMT
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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Richard Cave wrote:
> As for your glorious factory example, this is used all the time in C++.
> It is not ugly, and it is not painful.  You don't need ObjC to do object
> factories.  I can even do this in straight C.

I was alluding to the fact that I could refer to a factory object from a 
string representation of it and then have the factory instantiate an instance 
for me at runtime without knowing which particular class I was instantiating.
There is little to nothing that can be done in one language verses another, 
its just the added number of hoops you have to jump through in order to get 
there.

Tony
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From: igerard@ina.fr (Gerard Iglesias)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 21 Mar 1997 14:09:22 GMT
Organization: INA, Institut National de l'Audiovisuel, Bry-sur-Marne, France
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> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
> >	In other words, the C++ code is always graceful, pretty, encapsolated,
> >and easier to maintain.
> 

It's a joke ???

PS: I work on an industrial project in C++ since 4 years.

--
Gerard Iglesias
Email : igerard@ina.fr
Computer Graphics researcher INA.

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From: smolny@pankow.mpiib-berlin.mpg.de (Bertram Smolny)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Q: Hylafax ?
Date: 21 Mar 1997 13:41:36 GMT
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
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-- 

Hi,
is there somebody who compiled "hylafax" for NS 3.3 ?

please send e-mail 

regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Bertram Smolny			Fon: ++49 30/2802-6154
MPI f. Infektionsbiologie	Fax: ++49 30/2802-6406
Monbijoustr.2  D-10117 Berlin	e-mail: smolny@mpiib-berlin.mpg.de
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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From: dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Good News for Corps: Drive Down Rates as Desired w This Y2K Solution
Date: 21 Mar 1997 17:05:33 +0100
Organization: Posting Service
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With the "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K solution, employers
of programmers can actually *layoff* programmers, not need more!

If, perchance, competitors foolishly raid your staff, and you find
yourself in need of programmers, then you can send the work
overseas to India with confidence with the "Open and Shut Window
Technique" because it is so simple.  It relies heavily on existing
code, so it needs little testing, and contrary to someone's
mistaken belief, it needs no continual maintenance beyond the
initial program modifications.

In any case, you can continue with your corporate objectives, that
is, to drive down compensation rates for labor, particularly
expensive labor, particularly programmers.  Sock it to those
indolent and privileged prima donnas!


The "Open and Shut Window Technique," the quickest, simplest
Y2K solution follows!


Please read this document to the end.  Some important content
is near the end.

This approach will

    1.) eliminate the need for file conversions
    2.) allow you to move individual programs into
        production as they are converted indepen-
        dently of the status of other programs
        (great from an standpoint of keeping things
        organized)
    3.) work for all languages and all data access
        methods and databases
    4.) work for batch and on-line systems
    5.) work for subsequent turns of century
        (as far as 2100 not being a leap year, you
        are on your own with this minor glitch)
    5.) not involve the reformatting of input
        screens unless desired
    6.) not involve the reformatting of output
        reports unless desired

This approach will work for systems whose active
two-digit years do not span more than 50 years,
such as motor vehicle systems (aside from birth-
dates which should already be carried with 4
digit years), manufacturing systems, payroll
systems, order processing systems, and many, many
others.  (Note:  you can also use this approach
partially to buy you more time for a different
permanent solution if the range of active dates
in your system is greater than 50 years but less
than app. 90 years,)

Where you will primarily run into problems in a
program is in date comparisons, however, the
problem exists ONLY when the two dates are in
different centuries, otherwise the existing code
is adequate.  You make the distinction by having
a convention whereby all two digit years less
than n are new century years and all other years
are old century years.  n may be 10 or 50 or
whatever works for your particular system and
whatever you feel comfortable with.

Here is the logic for date comparisons:

If both dates are in the same century, execute
existing logic as is, otherwise, if year1 < year2,
then GOTO the existing GREATER-than logic for
date1 being greater than date2, else GOTO the
existing LESS-than logic for date1 being less
than date2.  Don't expand the years by prefixing
them with 19 or 20; there is no need to do so.

If you are looking for more, there isn't much
more to it than that.  When you are well into
the new century and all the active dates in the
system are new century dates, then go into your
programs and comment out the logic above and
recompile.  Then as you approach the next turn
of the century, uncomment out the comments making
the code active again!  (Save your screams.  Wait
to see what's below.)

You will also have to insert some correcting
code where you calculate the number of days
between two dates.  Here, if both dates are in
the same century just execute the existing code.
Otherwise expand the the new century year to
three digits by prefixing it with a 1 and
expand the old century year by prefixing it
with a 0.  Find the difference between the two
years, and GOTO the appropriate point in the
existing code beyond the point where the dif-
ference was calculated originally.

Again, at an appropriate time in the future,
comment out the code, recompile, and at the next
turn of century uncomment out the code and reuse
it.

You may have a situation where you are browsing
a KSDS VSAM file which is in key sequence accord-
ing to dates.  You are going to have to insert
modification code to end the browse at the end of
the records for year 99 and then restart the
browse for the records for year 00.

There may be situations where dates are used in
arithmetic calculations to come up with a VSAM
RRDS record number.  Depending on how the situ-
ation is handled, you may not need any correcting
code.  If you do, it should be as simple as the
other correcting code described herein.

With this approach, two digits years will always
be interpreted by humans as usual when they input
dates or when they read reports.  However, if you
so desire, you can modify your input programs and
output programs to use 4 digits years, but to
avoid file conversions, you will still carry the
dates in two digits in the files.  (Actually, having
the century prefixed to input and report output
dates will necessitate extra logic for keeping it
working into the 2100's, so it is recommended to
dispense with this for simplicity's sake.)

Remember to keep your correcting code well
contained for the convenience of commenting and
uncommenting it out in the future.  And be sure to
put liberal **** asterisk blocked **** documenting
comments to this effect.

Well, maybe you don't want to comment and uncomment
the code.  A convenient way to determine if your
two dates are in the different centuries is to check
the absolute value of their differences.

So now your correction code for date comparisons
will look something like the following.  (Remember,
all dates to be compared must not span more than
50 years, otherwise the following will not work
properly!)

* Note:  vertical lines: "| |" surrounding "year1 - year2" below
* indicate absolute value of the difference of year1 and year2.
IF |year1 - year2| is greater than 49
   IF year1 is less than year2 
      GOTO date1-is-greater-so-goto-existing-greater-than-logic
   ELSE GOTO date1-is-lower-so-goto-existing-lower-logic.
* Continue with next program instruction as it was originally.

Some reports will be printed with the data for
the new century dates preceding the old century
dates.  But this is just a minor inconvenience
which will go away when all dates in the system
are in the new century.  Also, it is my under-
standing that if you put your data through
Syncsort, you can specify sort parameters which
will eliminate this problem.


Comments to:  dashlangan@hotmail.com

Dash Langan

####################################################################
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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Q: i56 Card.
Date: 21 Mar 1997 17:37:49 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
Lines: 28
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Hi All,

I've been long suffering with this :)  I got an i56 card, and iLink
sent me their SoundAPI for it.  All I want to do is an incredibly
simple app that can record and play from the card.  A two second
IB.app with NeXT's soundkit, and SoundView.  Now the i56SoundAPI
has a i56SoundView.  It has all the same methods that the NeXT
SoundView has.  But when I substitute the i56SoundView with NeXT's,
the app quits when I try to record or play.  If I substitute NeXT's
SoundView back, everything works fine (but not through the i56 DSP
card).

So, I was wondering if anyone who has this card has managed to get
it to do this basic thing.  It comes with a modified SoundEditor.app,
and it seems to just be using the i56SoundView instead of the NeXT
SoundView.  I'm not sure where the "magic" is happening that I'm
missing.

I've tried sending mail for months to iLink, but no one has responded.
Has anyone had either better luck getting play and record working,
or contacting iLink?  Thanks for any help :)
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...

monoChrome, Inc.          | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer   | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School       | Jag talar inte svenska )^>  %^)  =^)
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From: tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.misc,comp.object,comp.sys.hp.hpux,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: RELEASE: The TOM Programming Language, version 0.03
Followup-To: comp.lang.misc
Date: 21 Mar 1997 18:36:35 +0100
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology
Lines: 70
Sender: tiggr@tom.ics.ele.tue.nl
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tom.ics.ele.tue.nl
cc: tom
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.misc:15969 comp.object:52954 comp.sys.hp.hpux:62609 comp.sys.next.programmer:23704

Version 0.03 of TOM has been released.  For more information, and the
distribution, visit http://tom.ics.ele.tue.nl:8080/.  --Tiggr

From the README:

        TOM is an object oriented programming language.  It is dynamic;
        instances as well as classes are true objects; they can be
        extended and modified at run time and at compile time; objects are
        managed by a non-atomic garbage collector; TOM provides very
        simple multiple inheritance; methods are overloaded on argument
        and return types; returns are multi-valued; method pre- and
        postconditions inherit, and the exception mechanism, like every
        part of the language, is an attempt at the right balance between
        arcane, baroque, simple, elegant and, foremost, usable.  (This
        balance is, of course, subject to the objectivity of the
        designers).

Changes in version 0.03 (Fri Mar 21 1997)

    New targets:

	hppa1.1-hp-hpux10.20
	i386-next-nextstep3
	i386-next-nextstep4 (untested)

    Language changes:

      - thread-local static class variables (new qualifier: `local'),
      - methods can have preconditions and postconditions.  Conditions are
	inherited by overriding methods.  Code for condition checking is
	compiled in by default; it can be omitted by `-fno-pre-checks' and
	`-fno-post-checks'.  Condition checking at run time is off by
	default; it can be enabled by `:cc-pre' and `:cc-post',
      - unary operator, `old', for use in postconditions,
      - literal C code can be included between  and  tags,
      - the semicolon is now a terminator instead of a separator, making
	TOM code look more like C code (and C-x C-t useful again).

    New features:

      - multi threading on some targets (classes: tom.Thread, tom.Lock,
	tom.RecursiveLock, and tom.Semaphore),
      - copying and mutable copying of objects (new class: Copying),
      - archiving objects onto a stream, and retrieving them (new or
	modified classes: All, State, Coder, BinaryCoder, StreamCoder,
	BinaryStreamCoder, TextStreamCoder, and their encoding/decoding
	subclasses),
      - invocation building, currying, and execution (new classes:
	Invocation, InvocationResult, Selector, TypeDescription),
      - an _initial_ implementation of Distributed Objects (new classes:
	Connection, PortCoder, Proxy, and various subclasses),
      - Unicode support.  The unicode example program is now a necessary
	tool for creating the conversion and predicate tables.  Tables for
	unicode and iso8859-* encodings are included in the distribution.
	(new or modified classes: ByteString, CharString, CharEncoding,
	USASCIIEncoding),
      - some new collections (new classes: IntDictionary, EqDictionary,
	PointerDictionary, EqSet, IntArray, Trie, Heap),
      - primitive implementation of bundles (new class: Bundle),
      - tom.C class providing malloc, memcpy and the like,
      - new class tom.Constants containing all definitions of constants
	for the tom unit, instead of the previous classes FileUser,
	TrieUser, etc (which have been removed),
      - the new class Extension provides access to an object's extensions,
	including the ability of having a particular method of said
	extension be executed.

    Other changes:

      - numerous bug fixes.
####################################################################
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Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:01:13 -0600
From: rberber@spin.com.mx
Subject: Re: Color in DBTableView? (DBKit question)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <858966682.3440@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: rberber@spin.com.mx
Organization: Deja News USENET Posting Service
To: gary@instepmobile.com
X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri Mar 21 17:51:23 1997 GMT
X-Originating-IP-Addr: 200.12.165.44 (orion12.spin.com.mx)
X-Http-User-Agent: OmniWeb/2.5-beta-2 OWF/1.0
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Gary Quan wrote:
>
> Does anyone know how to set a color to a row (record) in
> DBTableView?
>

Look into the BooleanFormater example from NeXT
(http://www.next.com/NeXTanswers/HTMLFiles/1239.htmld/1239.html);
changing the line that says:

	PSsetgray(NX_BLACK);

into something like:

	PSsetrgbcolor(1.0, 0.0, 0.0);

should give you "red boolean columns".

Anyway, that's the general idea.

--------------
Rene Berber
rberber@spin.com.mx
MIME / NeXT Mail welcomed

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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From: seanl@carmi.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: I need software suport help in DC
Date: 21 Mar 1997 18:56:22 GMT
Organization: U Maryland at College Park
Lines: 7
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

I just posted to here instead of hitting the "reply" button.  Very embarassed
(though not much embarassing in the message itself. :-) Mea Culpa!

_____________________________________________________________________________
Sean Luke                   "I've discovered that P==NP, but the proof is too
U Maryland at College Park   large to fit in the margins of this signature."
seanl@cs.umd.edu             URL: http://www.cs.umd.edu/~seanl/
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From: deniseh@best.com (Denise Howard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Followup-To: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Date: 21 Mar 1997 20:20:46 GMT
Lines: 29
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Donald Hall (halldj@lis.ab.ca) wrote:
: In article ,
: jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck) wrote:

: > Hi, 
: >    I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY 
: > calculator(hardware). (the conversion features in the CASIOs 
: > are nice but are really cumbersome to use, and those nifty
: > software version just dont quite cut it). If anyone outta there
: > knows some company who sells such a thing, would you please
: > email me? Thanks much in advance.
: > 
: > -Jake 

: About 10 years ago Hewlett Packard had an excellent programmer's
: calculator. You should check with an HP dealer to see if they still make
: them.

Texas Instruments made one, too--I still have mine.  It's called a
"Programmer II".  Not only can you change number systems at the touch of a
button but you can perform logic operations (and, or, xor) on your
entries.

Denise
--
Denise Howard     | PROGRAM, tr. v., An activity similar to
Mountain View, CA | banging one's head against a wall, but
deniseh@best.com  | with fewer opportunities for reward.
NeXTMail welcome! |      http://www.best.com/~deniseh
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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: AppKit and Undo
Date: 21 Mar 1997 12:13:13 -0800
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Lines: 317
Sender: mpaque@mpaque
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5guq4p$r7@mpaque.mpaque>
References: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: serpens184.wco.com

In article  jimg@abacus.com (Jim  
Gagnon) writes:
> I've noticed a bit of talk about lack of built-in support for Undo in
> the NeXT AppKit and I was wondering if a third party built a subclass of
> NSObject that supported full undo and history documents, and allowed
> full transaction/nested transaction support, would developers find this
> attractive enough to license?  I have built this technology before for
> other dynamic object systems, and feel it could be brought to the
> NeXT/Rhapsody platform.  Would developers be willing to pay a modest
> license fee for it? (say $1000/year for a commercial product).
> 
> Lemme know.  If I hear enough interest, I'll gladly drop the Windows
> project I'm working on and build an undo system that'll beat the pants
> off of the ones Taligent, OpenDoc and Cairo used.

A good place for you (and other developers) to start would be the Undo  
sample code in /NextDeveloper/Examples/AppKit/Draw.  There is an undo  
subproject there that nicely abstracts change, undo, and redo.

From the documentation:

Statement of Purpose

The purpose of this chapter is to explain how the undo feature was added to  
the Draw example application. Our goal is to enable you, an experienced  
NeXT application developer, to use the ideas presented here to add Undo to  
your own application. We've designed the Undo code so that the parts not  
directly concerned with Draw can be easily incorporated into your  
application.

What is Undo?

Undo enables a user to reverse or rollback the effects of previous and  
potentially destructive operations. This feature is most often used to undo  
an unintended or unexpected action, but it also lets users experiment with  
different commands to see how they work. Users can also re-issue an action  
that was previously undone. This is called  redo. 

The most obvious manifestation of undo capability in Draw are two new menu  
items in the Edit menu. These menu items contain the name of actions that  
can be undone and redone. In this case, actions are things like moving a  
Graphic, deleting a Graphic, or creating a new Graphic. In the version of  
Draw that we've compiled for you, two menu items implement multiple-undo.  
Later on we'll show you how to easily implement single-level undo.

Change Objects

Before we go on, we should formalize the notion of a user action. There are  
many different kinds of user actions, but we're only interested in the ones  
that cause the state of a document or an important part of the application  
to change. If your application uses documents like Draw, then any operation  
which would normally cause the document to become  dirty  should be  
undoable. Even if your application doesn't use documents, you can still  
make the editing in your text fields undoable.

From now on, instead of talking about user actions, we'll refer to undoable  
user actions as  changes.  In fact, there's a class called Change that is  
used to represent changes. Each time the user does something that's  
undoable, the application will create an instance of a subclass of Change,  
which we'll call a  change object. 

Each change object encapsulates all the information necessary to undo and  
redo its corresponding user action. A simple example is a change that  
represents a modification to the floating point value of a control. The  
change object for this action would need to record which view got modified,  
the value before the change, and the new value after the change. Undoing  
the change is a simple matter of copying the old value back into the  
control, while undoing the undo (redo) requires that you re-copy the new  
value into the control.

Implementing a Change Class

To see how this works, lets implement a simple Change class called  
FloatValueChange. Here's the interface:

@interface FloatValueChange : Change
{
	id myView;
	float oldValue;
	float newValue;
}

- initView:changedView;
- saveBeforeChange;
- saveAfterChange;
- undoChange;
- redoChange;
- (const char *)changeName;

@end

As described above, the instance variables record the view which will be  
modified, the original value and the new value. The initView: method is the  
designated initializer for our class, and the following four methods  
override standard methods found in the Change class. The last method  
returns a name string that appears in the undo/redo menu items.

The saveBeforeChange method is used to set the oldValue variable, while  
saveAfterChange sets the newValue. When the user wants to undo this  
operation, undoChange will be called to restore the oldValue. Similarly,  
redoChange copies newValue into myView. Here are the implementations:

@implementation FloatValueChange

- initView:changedView
{
	[super init];
	myView = changedView;
	return self;
}

- saveBeforeChange
{
	oldValue = [myView floatValue];
	return self;
}

- saveAfterChange
{
	newValue = [myView floatValue];
	return self;
}

- undoChange
{
	[myView setFloatValue:oldValue];
	return self;
}

- redoChange
{
	[myView setFloatValue:newValue];
	return self;
}

- (const char *)changeName
{
	return("Float");
}

@end

All change classes follow the same pattern as the simple one we just  
created. The change object is responsible for saving the state of the  
document, view, or whatever object is about to be modified, before and  
after the modification. It also needs to be able to restore the state to  
the way it was either before or after the modification.

You might have noticed that FloatValueChange doesn't know what the actual  
change is. The reason for this is that if the change was a complicated  
calculation, it could be too expensive or even impossible to duplicate the  
same calculation twice. So, in general, change objects have no knowledge  
about how changes are made in the first place, but do understand how to  
save and restore state information.

Using Change Objects

Obviously, things do change in a running application, so let's examine how  
modifications are made using change objects. The only method of our  
undoable control that we need to modify is the one that sets the  
floatValue. Here it is:

@implementation MyUndoControl

- setFloatValue:(float)value
{
	id change;

	change = [[FloatValueChange alloc] initView:self];
	[change startChange];
		floatValue = value;
	[change endChange];

	return self;
}

@end

When setFloatValue: is called, we know that some other part of the  
application wants to update the value of the control. The implementation  
above first allocates a blank change object and then initializes it. The  
call to startChange lets the change object know that the control is about  
to modify itself. The call to startChange will eventually result in a call  
to saveBeforeChange. We didn't have to implement startChange in our change  
class above because it was inherited from the generic Change class.

The next step is to update the internal data structures, with an assignment  
statement in this case. Finally, we let the change know that we're done by  
calling endChange which ends up calling saveAfterChange. This is the basic  
pattern for any modification to a data structure that should be undoable.  
Simply create an instance of the appropriate kind of change object and give  
it control before and after the modification is to be made.

You can write your own classes to know about change objects from the start,  
but it is often more convenient to create a subclass that adds the change  
object code. This makes it very easy to add undo functionality to an  
application that already exists, because you only have to think about undo  
when everything else already works.

Change Manager

Change objects do most of the work for you in terms of implementing undo.  
However, there's another part to the story. Whenever the startChange method  
of a change object is called, a search is made up the responder chain to  
find the nearest change manager.

A change manager is an object that collects the individual change objects  
and makes them available to the user via the undo/redo menu items. The  
change manager is also responsible for freeing change objects when they're  
no longer needed.

As an application runs, its change managers wait for changes to be passed  
to them via the responder chain. Typically, a view deep in the view  
hierarchy for a window will create a change object and then call  
startChange. The change object then broadcasts the changeInProgress: method  
on the responder chain. The search up the chain eventually reaches a change  
manager which replies with a saveBeforeChange message.

In document oriented applications, like Draw, it is very easy to derive  
your document class from the ChangeManager class. Since document objects  
are typically installed as the delegate of their window, the ChangeManager  
will govern all changes that occur within that particular document.

If you would rather implement application-wide undo, simply install a  
ChangeManager as the delegate of your application, so that all change  
objects are governed by the same ChangeManager. You can also add  
ChangeManagers in other places in the responder chain if you need to.  
However, it might be difficult to determine which ChangeManager should  
control the undo and redo menu items.

The Undo/Redo Menu Items

The ChangeManager class implements three target-action methods that can be  
connected to menu items. The first, undoOrRedoChange: implements  
single-level undo. This means that only the last change will be undoable,  
and after it is undone, the menu shows Redo with the same change. For most  
applications, its just as easy to implement multiple-undo as it is  
single-undo. 

You might consider using single-level undo if it greatly simplifies the  
user interface of your application. Also, if you choose not to make the  
creation and deletion of objects undoable, then you should consider using  
single-level undo. The reason for this is if you try to redo a modification  
to an object that doesn't exist (because it couldn't be re-created), either  
your application or the user could become very confused.

The other two methods, undoChange: and redoChange: work as a pair. Together  
these implement multiple-undo. This means that every change going back in  
time is either undoable or redoable, and there are separate menu items for  
undo and redo. Connect the undo menu item to undoChange: and the redo menu  
item to redoChange:.

Multiple-undo is much nicer for the user, and you should implement it if  
you can. You'll need to make the creation and deletion of objects undoable  
for the reasons mentioned above. You should also make sure that none of  
your change objects depend on global variables that might be modified  
between the time the change object was created than the time the user wants  
to undo or redo a change.

The file ChangeManager.m defines a constant N_LEVEL_UNDO which tells the  
ChangeManager how many levels of changes to keep track of. To get  
single-level undo simply set this constant to 1. For multiple-undo set it  
to any number you like, but give some thought to how large your change  
objects are likely to be and how much memory you can afford to spend on  
your undo history.

Updating the Menu Items

The ChangeManager class supports the validateMenuItem: method to  
automatically update the undo menu items after each change. This method is  
passed the id of the menu item to be validate. It examines the action field  
of the menu item to determine which menu item is being validated and will  
update the title of the menu item to reflect the name of the change to be  
undone or redone.

The title of the menu cells are calculated from the changeName method of  
the change objects. The ChangeManager prepends either  Undo  or  Redo  as  
appropriate.

Making your Application Undoable

Once you understand how the undo mechanism works, it's straightforward to  
make your application undoable. Here are the steps involved:

	1) Examine your application and determine which modifications  
should be undoable. Then create your subclasses of Change to represent  
these changes.

	2) Decide where your ChangeManagers should be located. For  
document-level undo, make them delegates of your document objects or derive  
your document class from ChangeManager. For application-wide undo, put a  
ChangeManager behind the application object. The important thing is to make  
sure each ChangeManager is located on the responder chain above any views  
where change objects will be created.

	3) Modify your existing code to create change objects for each user  
action to be undoable. The easiest way to do this may be to create an  
undoable subclass of each view that causes changes. Then you can simply  
override the methods that update data structures to be like setFloatValue:  
above. Another option is to add change code directly to each view class,  
which is what we did with GraphicView in the Draw example. 

	4) Decide whether you want single-level undo or multiple-undo. For  
single-level, add one new menu item and connect it to your ChangeManager  
with the undoOrRedoChange: method. Do this in Interface Builder. If you  
want multiple-undo, create two new menu items that are connected to the  
undoChange: and redoChange: methods. Make sure that the update actions of  
these menu items are set to validateMenuItem:.

	5) Make sure that the Change and ChangeManager classes along with  
all your new change classes are linked into the application. After you  
recompile, you application will have undo!
-- 
I don't speak for my employer, whoever it is, and they don't speak for me.
mpaque@next.com		Official business only		NeXT Mail OK
mpaque@wco.com		Non-business or personal mail	NeXT mail OK

####################################################################
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From: seanl@carmi.cs.umd.edu (Sean Luke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: I need software suport help in DC
Date: 21 Mar 1997 18:54:31 GMT
Organization: U Maryland at College Park
Lines: 52
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Don McKinnon (Don.McKinnon@mail.house.gov) wrote:
>I have no NeXT skills.
>	
>I have a slab I've been using since 1990 and I need to hire someone to
>fix a few bugs that have accumulated:

Well, I can help friendly-wise (i.e., free) a little, I suppose.  I'm a
grad student at Maryland.  If the job looks messy, sure, I imagine we
could work something out. 


>I can connect to Novell server, but I can't get printer connectivity.

This I may not be able to help much, since my familiarity with
NeXTSTEP-Novell connections is hazy, and NeXT doesn't support it strongly.
You *might* try contacting Kris Magnusson, a former big-NeXT guy in Utah
who now works out at Novell (though not with NeXTSTEP), and would love to
hear from actual House people. :-)  try kris@xmission.com.

Don Yacktman might also have some contacts at Novell as he lives next
door to the company.  Try don_yacktman@misckit.com (I think).


>My memory seems to run out and crash everything.

Well, this I can help with.

>I need to have someone help me set up my modem.

This I too can help with, assuming you're trying to connect with, say, PPP.

>If its possible, I'd like to be able to connect to an NT server 

You'll probably be out of luck here as...well, it depends on how the NT
server is set up, but it's most likely not possible.

>and to
>determine if I could run NeXT and Windows 95 from the same machine.

You *can* run NeXTSTEP and Windows95 from the same machine, assuming it's
a PC, and you've set up dual-booting.  I'm not all that familiar with
doing this, and I have been told you have to be careful that Win95 doesn't
mess up your NeXTSTEP partition (NeXTSTEP won't touch the Win95 partition,
so you're okay that direction).

If you're looking for running Win95 from a *NeXTstation*, expect it to be
phenominally slow--your only option is to use SoftWindows for NeXTSTEP.

_____________________________________________________________________________
Sean Luke                   "I've discovered that P==NP, but the proof is too
U Maryland at College Park   large to fit in the margins of this signature."
seanl@cs.umd.edu             URL: http://www.cs.umd.edu/~seanl/
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From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: An actual NEXTSTEP programming post
Date: 21 Mar 1997 11:13:38 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
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David Young  wrote:
> Recently I've been working on a project which uses DO in order to
> handle threads vs. the AppKit. Basically, I vend my application
         ^^^^^^^

This is the point. Every thread has to have its own autorelease pool if you 
don't want go get these messages. Try to set up one in the message you 
disconect as thread and it should be fine.

-dirk

---
______________________________________________________________________
Dirk Olmes      OBJECT FACTORY
                Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
                Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany
                Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0
                Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99
                dirk@object-factory.com
                http://www.object-factory.com/

Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: Re: OpenStep on Java and Newton
Message-ID: 
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Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:34:23 GMT
Lines: 67

scholz@leo.org (Bernhard Scholz) wrote:
> Robert La Ferla  wrote:
> >I definitely think it would be a commercially smart idea to provide 
> >some degree of compatibility between OPENSTEP and NewtonOS.  I can 
> >envision many mission critical and shrinkwrap applications that could 
> >be extended past the desktop to a handheld PDA.  Integrating Java into 
> >OPENSTEP and NewtonOS would make this all very possible.  In it's 
> >simplest form, Newton users could use a Java-enabled web browser to 
> >access OPENSTEP/Java applets.  OPENSTEP/NewtonOS for Windows CE 
> >systems would also be a good idea.  I don't think Apple wants to 
> >repeat the mistakes it's made with the proprietary Mac hardware.
> >
> >
> Apple is probably going to drop the Newton. See latest press statements in 
> MacWeek.
> 

Apple would be really dumb if they would drop the Newton.
But t also would be really dumb to move Openstep to the Newton. Apple should 
be smarter then M$ and not try to put a desktop OS on a PDA.

While PDAs and Desktop machines nopefully will get closer together in the 
years to come...it is way too early to make that move now (be it WinCE or 
OpenStep)

The Newton is a great product which really solves some existing problems. 
Voice annotation like in the new Newton 2000 makes it even more intersting.

The mayor mistake was that Sculley tried to sell it to the masses. This can't 
work.
Using a similar approach like NeXTs used for its MCCA should offer more 
potential customers. Newton needs to offer "solutions" not just being a 
"PDA".
I know a bunch of customers who are using Newtons for data collection and 
then use regular PCs networks to process the data.
One company had to install Win NT at the client since the MacOS just couldn't 
privde the necessary security...and Openstep had no Newton or MSWord support 
to offer.
Boy would they love to go with EOF, Rhapsody and Newton.

With Rhapsody Apple could really be in the unique position to have a product 
line which could offer solutions for a entire business (PDA to Server)...and 
Rhapsody and NewtonOS are definitly cutting edge products with a high 
reputation.

IMHO they shouldn't try to move OpenStep to Newton but Newton into OpenStep.
OpenStep lacks a truely global address book, notepad and similar things which 
the Newton solves quite nicely (NeXTSTEPs address book handling is a shame 
IMHO. The folks at NeXt can do a lot better stuff then that).

The handwriting technology of the Newton could be a really nice "input 
manager" for Openstep.

There are many fields where you want a "desktop" system without a keyboard.
It could be a nice addition for handicapped people  (if might be easie for 
some people to use graphity like textinput on a art-pad then typing on a 
keyboard).

So its not really necessary to provide sourcecode compatibility with OpeNStep 
/ Newton...but a perfect integration would be very nice.  (Ok..with Java for 
the Newton and some Java-mappings for OpenStep frameworks...there could be 
some sort of better integration between the two worlds)

But then...this is c.s.n.programmer...and I am about to enter advocacy...

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: 
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Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:43:18 GMT
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markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) wrote:
> In article <5gs5cg$ja21@castor.cca.rockwell.com>,
> embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:
> > Several comments were implied.  
> > First that the absence of "constructors" is somehow a problem.  
Constructors 
> > are one of the worst mis-features of C++.  All kinds of special rules 
about 
> > what can and can not be done in constructors greatly complicates the 
> > language.  Objective-C does not need any of that.  If you want to control 
> > memory allocation, overload +allocWithZone: or +alloc.  That is seldom 
> > necessary or desired.  Overload -init to do most useful class 
initialization.
> 
> Constructors are nice syntactic sugar. They are handy for some things like
> locks, etc. but not necessary for OO design...
> 

Not necessarily for OO design on a local system. But using special keywords 
to generate a new instance is truely a bad design language wise.

The "new" constructor is just a silly malloc and not an OO message under C++. 
Java still uses the same silly syntax (which is one of the truely ugly parts 
of Java).

Why is "new" bad ?

In a distributed OO system you just can make a "malloc" on a foreign 
computer. Almost every C++ based programming language for distributed 
environment "invented" class methods in order to generate new instances.
Constructores make this process a lot more controlable since you can redirect 
the request...you can put in some custom knowledge to generate some proxy 
objects on the fly...and other necessary things.

So C++ lack of class methods really is nasty when it comes to distributed 
programming.

Ok... C++ is barely usable for distributed programming anyway. You have no 
runtime  to redirect messages and need systems like CORBA to get the runtime 
feautres at some metalevel. You can't create proxis on the fly o forward 
invocations.
While it is possible to design a system which "looks" like C++ and provides 
advanced distribution feautres...this has nothing to do with 99.99999% of the 
regular C++ compilers  and enviorments.


But then...pick the language you like.. and if it's C++ .. fine. You have to 
live with it...not me.

Aloha
	Tomi

P.S. Try building a system with C++ which you want to update....but which you 
are not allowed to stop for a restart (running 24hours a day.. 365days a 
year). This is where the fun begins...and this is where Lisp and Smalltalk 
still will have some things to offer that even ObjC or Java can't solve 
really well.
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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on Java and Newton
Date: 21 Mar 1997 22:05:01 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote:
> IMHO they shouldn't try to move OpenStep to Newton but Newton
> into OpenStep. OpenStep lacks a truely global address book,
> notepad and similar things which the Newton solves quite nicely
> (NeXTSTEPs address book handling is a shame IMHO. The folks at
> NeXt can do a lot better stuff then that).

Well, Netinfo, I guess technically part of OPENSTEP and not OpenStep,
does have a global address book.  Go into your ~/Library/Addresses
directory, and select whatever *.addresses file you have there.
Then open it as a folder (note this is a flat file).  When the mini
browser opens up, select any rolodex file, and open the content
inspector (Cmnd-2).  You'll see that you do in fact have a system
wide mini database/address system...
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...

monoChrome, Inc.          | ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer   | mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming... | http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School       | Jag talar inte svenska )^>  %^)  =^)
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 21 Mar 1997 14:17:18 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) writes:

> Deep Copy:
> C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;
> ObJC:	Pt1 = [[Point alloc] init:Pt2];
> (Again I prefer the C++ syntax, but, this time I think it's clear
> enough to say advantage C++)

More like

	Pt1 = [Pt2 deepen];
or
	Pt1 = [Pt2 copy];

...and I'd say the readability of the code offsets the minor
syntactical advantage of C++, since it's far easier to tell the
difference between a shallow and deep copy than having to figure out
whether Pt1 and Pt2 were pointers or not.

> effecient deep copy:
> C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;	// inlining handled by compiler
> 			// encapsolation maintained
> ObjC:	Pt1->x = Pt2->x; // inlining handled by programmer
> 	Pt1->y = Pt2->y; // encapsolation violated.
> (advantage C++)

What's your definition of efficient here?  It seems to be "the copy
must be performed in only two instructions, come hell or high water".
I'll grant you that you have to break encapsulation in order to do it
right in Objective-C, but if your code's survival is steeped in this
kind of instruction bumming, you probably could use a complete code
review so you decide where you need to use ObjC and where you don't.

I note that your examples seem to present efficient deep copies as
something that the class user needs to think about, but the C++
example doesn't actually have the class user dealing with efficiency
considerations.  Instead, the person who wrote the class must be the
one thinking of efficiency.  If the class writer isn't thinking about
it (heck, maybe he needed a virtual operator=), then your `efficient
deep copy' fails miserably.

> effecient polymorphic call:
> C++:	pPt->print();
> ObjC:	func	f;
> 	f = sel_getMethod(Point, @selector(print));
> 	f();
> (OK, I made that ObjC syntax up, since I don't know the actual syntax,
> but I'm pretty sure it's close, and unless the real one is actually
> very different, I'd say we'd have to call this advantage C++)

How is that more efficient than `[Pt print];'?  All you've done is
write out exactly what Obj-C does during a method call.  That's not
more efficient, that's just plain stupid.

I grant you that if you're printing the object many times in a tight
loop, you may want to grab the method and then call f(pPt) many times.
Of course, you'd want to do the same thing if print() is a C++ virtual
function (which, since you decided to go to all the trouble of talking
about a `really efficient' non-runtime version in another section, I
assume that it is).

> In other words, the C++ code is always graceful, pretty,
> encapsolated, and easier to maintain.

Whoops, sorry, didn't realize you were on medication. :-)

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: Eric_Noyau@next.com (Eric Noyau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: AppKit and Undo
Date: 22 Mar 1997 00:51:15 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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In article <5guq4p$r7@mpaque.mpaque> mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)  
writes:
> In article  jimg@abacus.com (Jim  
> Gagnon) writes:
> > I've noticed a bit of talk about lack of built-in support for Undo in
> > the NeXT AppKit [...]
> 
> A good place for you (and other developers) to start would be the Undo  
> sample code in /NextDeveloper/Examples/AppKit/Draw.  There is an undo  
> subproject there that nicely abstracts change, undo, and redo.
> [...]
>
Well, I'm sorry Mike, but if you call the Undo in Draw "nicely abstract"  
I'm going to disagree! Take a look at the undo manager in EOF... It's way  
better than the one in Draw: You don't have to write a class for every  
possible undo event.

Here is a simple example:

- (void)setColor:(NSColor *)aColor
{
   [[myUndoManager prepareWithInvocationTarget:self] setColor:_color];
   [_color autorelease];
   _color = [aColor retain];
}

By doing setColor: on this object you register the method needed to revert  
the change. If you send -undo to the undo manager, it's going to replay  
this method, storing the necessary information to perform the redo...

Of course, if you are using EOF, you don't even need to do any of that:  
EOF is doing it for you.

-- Eric
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From: yospe@hawaii.remove.this.edu (Nathan F. Yospe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:38:41 -1000
Organization: UHM Physics
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necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:

:alertArea->displayTextColorBlinkInterval("Connection dropped", RED, YES, FAST);
alertArea->displayText("Connection dropped", 
                       /*Color*/ RED, /*Blink*/ YES, /*Interval*/ FAST);
Your point?

:[alertArea displayText:"Connection dropped" color:RED blink:YES interval:FAST];

Ugh. Unwanted baggage. I don't really want to be doing all of that every
time. Especially because, in the class of which alertArea is an instance,
I would certainly have created the Color, Blink, and Interal enumerated
types, so the prototype of the function would be
WindowThingie::displayText(char *const text, Color c, Blink b, Interval i);
or better yet:
WindowThingie::displayText(const String& text, Color c, Blink b, Interval i);

:Which is easier to follow?

The C++. You know, this thread might get a little more interesting if a
copy were forwarded to comp.lang.c++.... nah, too mean. Tell you what...
I'm 
learning objective C, why don't you go learn C++, as you seem to have a 
little trouble with it.
-- 
Nathan F. Yospe  | There is nothing wrong with being a sociopath. Its
yospe@hawaii.edu | getting caught thats a problem. Be a mad scientist
UH Manoa Physics | Write poetry. Be an artist. Plot world domination.
Biomedical Phys. | Panthers make great pets. Muhahahahahahahahahaha!!
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: AppKit and Undo
Date: 21 Mar 1997 23:43:55 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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Also see the RZUndo (sp?) stuff for an alternate/better approach to 
Undo/Redo.
This approach uses the built in forwardInvocation: method to make any 
operation undoable withou needing to creat lots of "change" instances.

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From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rejoice! BSD 4.4 is coming
Date: 21 Mar 1997 18:16:46 -0500
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In article , John C. Randolph  wrote:
>Well, I just heard it from the fourth source inside NeXT's engineering
>groups, and what I'm hearing is that the BSD code in Rhapsody is
>*finally* getting upgraded to BSD 4.4!

Smileys don't even come close 8^) but there are no ascii emoticons
for ticker tape, noise makers, or wild parties in the streets.

This is wonderful news!
-- 
  ___ ___ | James E. Quick                     jq@quick.com 
   / /  / | Quick & Associates                 NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/  |    Apple, we know the song's not written yet,
       )  |    but could you at least hum a few more bars? 
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:44:02 GMT
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In <<5gnu3j$mdt$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>>, 
kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:


>Actuall, I'm on acid here.  The [] operator's single argument may be
>of any type, not just an int.  Also, if you declare the operator[] 
>function as a friend it would effectively have two arguments, probably 
>an object reference and anything else.  In any case, the varargs stuff
>won't work at all, no matter what you do.


	Ok, I didn't actually compile it.  Big deal... Replace the operator[]
with operator() and the code I posted compiles, variable args and
all... We just vary a bit more from the ObjC syntax..
       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 07:59:13 GMT
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In <<5glbme$4q7@news.ml.com>>, 
necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:

> Let me give you a 
>specific example, a real business world example and not a pathological text 
>book case, I know you hate those.
	[ etc snipped]

>This C++ code:

>// ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>#include 

>class SuperClass {
>public:
>    SuperClass();
>    virtual void describe ();
>};

>SuperClass::SuperClass () { this->describe ();}
	[ etc snipped]

   If we're not going to use pathological example... why did you use
one? You exploited a difference between ObjC and C++ -- (ie, object
costruction is a one step process in C++	and a two step process in
ObjC) and build an example around that.  As the example Richard Cave
posted, if we make this a two step process in C++ also, we get the
expected result. 


       Truth,
       James

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From: "Ian P. McCullough" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.system,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Mac/NeXT & Unix: File System
Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:40:08 +0000
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> AFS that Scott refers to was at one time known as the Andrew File
> System, from Carniege-Mellon. 

As far as I know, its still known as Andrew File System.  The statement:

> unrelated to Apple File Sharing (and in fact, there is no AFS client
> for Macintosh, AFS is mostly implemented on Unix file systems).

is a tad misleading.  Yes.  AFS is mostly implemented on Unix systems. 
This does not mean that there is not an AFS client for macintosh.  I
believe there was a "direct" client written for the Mac, but for lack of
a reference, I'll throw in the following, too.  When I was at CMU they
additionally had an AppleShare/AFS gateway whose performance was
actually quite good.  Just want to prevent anyone making the blanket
assumption that AFS and the Mac are incompatible.

> When the announcement came out about Apple buying NeXT, I sent a
> message to the AFS mailing list to see if they'd resurrect the
> AFS support for NeXTSTEP (and get it working on other hardware
> platforms, instead of just NS/m68k), but didn't get any response.

Not surprising.  I myself am very aware of Apple's habit of talking and
talking and talking and never doing anything (*cough*copland*cough).  If
I were working on anything like AFS I would be taking a wait and see
attitude.

Ian
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From: sheldon@atlcom.net (Sheldon Simms)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:57:40 -0500
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In article <5guqiu$emg$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, deniseh@best.com (Denise
Howard) wrote:

> Texas Instruments made one, too--I still have mine.  It's called a
> "Programmer II".  Not only can you change number systems at the touch of a
> button but you can perform logic operations (and, or, xor) on your
> entries.

The original poster complained about hard-to-use Casios, but my Casio
(which is at around 10 years old) allows you to switch number systems
and perform arithmetic and logical operations in decimal, octal, hex,
and binary. Converting a number from one radix to another is a matter
of typing it in and switching to the radix you want.

It's a Casio fx-451M fwiw.

-- 
W. Sheldon Simms III   |   2000 is *still* the 20th century
sheldon@atlcom.net     |
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:30:43 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 18-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
>>>      No, we ARE comparing the speed of doing four or so integer operations
>>> with a couple of ObjC method dispatches.  You are missing the point.
>>> In C++ a member function can be inlined.  ie, I can write:
>>>         x = y;
>>> and the compiler will see that as:
>>>         x.realval = y.realval;
>>> and generate the code appropriately.
>>  
>> Wrong-- you aren't copying the objects x and y by doing that, you're
>> just exchanging one of their ivars.  And if that's all you want to do,
>> you can code the exact same thing in Obj-C with the same four or so
>> integer operations and get the same performance you'd get from C++.
>  
>         No... You keep missing the point.  In my (admittedly pathological)
> example, "realval" is the only irrelevant part of the object.

"relevant", you mean?

> (The rest could be padding for alignment or a scratchpad area).  Hence by
> copying that one member variable, I've effectively copied the value of
> the object.

James, we were considering the inner comparision test for a
general-purpose sort of an array or list of objects based on a key
value.  If you know at compile time that you've only got objects of that
type where you can overload '=' to just copy one ivar, okay-- but you're
trading a performance gain by reducing the flexibility and generality of
the sort.

For example, what happens when you don't have the same type of object in
the array?  What happens when you've got subclasses of that object, or
even completely different classes which share an interface in terms of
method names but do not have the same ivars in the exact same place in
the structure underlying the objects?

(We're back to comparing virtual C++ dispatches to Obj-C's method
invocations, again.....)

> >However, if you're not going to break encapsulation, you have to access
> >ivars through method dispatch instead of directly.  Ie, you have to call
> >[x realval] or x.realval() to get that value since you have to do some
> >type of calculation in order to compute the response instead of simply
> >returning a ivar from a structure.
>  
>         But, I'm not breaking encapsulation!!  All I'm doing in my code is
> writing "x = y;"  (english translation - "copy object y into object x
> -- all implementation details left up to class designer")

That implementation of assignment does not actually perform even a
shallow copy of the object (ie, pointer manipulation maybe plus
referencing counting).  Anyone expecting '=' to perform a copy of the
complete state of an object is not going to get the behavior they expect.

IMHO, designing code which uses operator overloading in such an
inconsistant fashion is one of the greatest flaws of C++.  Instead of
being able to rely on the behavior of '=', you now have to worry about
the specific implementation of that class since it might do something
other than what you wanted.

[ ... ]
>         I think part of what you're missing, is you don't fully understand
> C++'s operator overloading.  In C++, I can define what = means for a
> object.  Hence, as the designer of a class, I can specify exactly what
> members need to be copied and how they should be copied.

Oh, I understand ad-hoc polymorphism (aka operator overloading) fine-- I
just dislike it strongly.

Instead of encouraging people to develop flexible code that's dynamicly
bound and can truly interact with any other object which shares a common
interface, the use of operator overloading in the way you've
demonstrated involves objects which are staticly bound, must share
knowledge of each other's implementation, and the resulting code is much
more difficult to maintain since someone else working on your code has
to verify the implementation details of all of the overloaded operators
to ensure that they actually do what you expect them to.

And that hampers code reusability.

> But, as a user of a class, all I need to know is that saying "x = y;"
> handles it all.

But Joe class user cannot know that "x = y;" handles it the way he expects 
'=' to behave without actually verifying the implemention of '='.

> THAT'S the true essense of OOP, and ObjC can only approximate that....

It's rather odd that the supposed "true essence of OOP" involves static
binding, knowledge of implementation rather than interface, and results
in code that does not work correctly with subclasses of the original
class without the programmer having to worry about whether the original
classes' reimplements operators in unexpected ways.

[ ... ]
>>> That is what is possible with early binding, and what you have to give up
>>> if you insist that it's not real OOP unless it's late-bound.
>  
>> That's exactly right.  You're not really doing OOP if you break
>> encapsulation, now are you?
>  
>         But I'm not the one advacating breaking encapsolation!

But that is the result from using static binding instead of dynamic
binding.  Let's say you wrote a sort routine using the class you defined
above, and you've got your overloaded '=' inlined which only exchanges
one ivar instead of the entire class.

Now then, what happens when you write a subclass which depends on some
other state being copied than just the one ivar?  Your subclasses break
if you simply try to pass them into the sort routine unless you change
the superclass implementation of '=' and recompile the class.   That is
one of the classic example of C++'s weak superclass problem, correct?

And what happens if this occurs with some class that's in a library that
you don't have source for?  How do you alter the superclasses'
implementation of '=' then?  The dynamic runtime of Obj-C lets you
replace method implementations even for classes that you don't have the
source for.

I was going to respond to your in-depth comparsion of various C++ and
Obj implemenations for the Point class, but Steven beat me to it.

[ ... ]

By the way, what does C++ have in terms of integrated reference counting?

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: mckelvey@fafnir.com (James W. McKelvey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: C++ Mystery
Date: 22 Mar 1997 06:35:17 GMT
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The program below fails to compile on 3.3 and 4.1. It compiles on gcc/NeXT 
and on Sun sparc.

class X
{
    public:
    X(void)
    {
        try
        {
            throw 1;
        }

        catch(int n)
        {
        }
    };
};

fafnir:temp>cc++ -c -Wall x.C
x.C: In method `X::X()':
x.C:7: warning: `catch', `throw', and `try' are all C++ reserved words
x.C:8: `try' undeclared (first use this function)
x.C:8: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
x.C:8: for each function it appears in.)
x.C:8: parse error before `{'
x.C:9: warning: `catch', `throw', and `try' are all C++ reserved words
x.C: At top level:
x.C:12: warning: `catch', `throw', and `try' are all C++ reserved words
x.C:12: parse error at end of saved function text
x.C:12: confused by earlier errors, bailing out



--
Where diesel guitars from faraway bars, blast out the
best songs from our holy wars. Coyote carnival catches
on fire, all the cops in the world pick us up on radar.
Jim McKelvey  mckelvey@fafnir.com

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From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> <5gdbq0$3p1@lal.interserv.com>  <5ghjc4$d92@lal.interserv.com>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:58:17 GMT
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In article <5ghjc4$d92@lal.interserv.com>,
James M. Curran  wrote:
>In <>, 
>petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich) wrote:

>	That's good too, however, we'd really need the enum selector, because
>doing a full text string lookup for each dispatch would move this from
>"sluggish" to "incredible slow".  My version mainly implements it the
>way it is handled in ObjC.

	I may have been too literal-minded in assuming that every dispatch
uses a string rather than an enum; if the ObjC compiler is smart enough, 
it might do something like translate

	[obj M: arg1]
	[obj M: arg2]
	[obj M: argc]

	into

	M_enum = StrToEnum(objType,"M");
	Dispatch(obj,M_enum,arg1);
	Dispatch(obj,M_enum,arg2);
	Dispatch(obj,M_enum,arg3);

	However, I provided the opportunity of returning a pointer to a 
method, so as to get additional speed; Objective C also does that.
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html


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From: Brad Howes 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Date: 21 Mar 1997 09:30:23 -0700
Organization: Motorola Corporate Computer Services
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>>>> Thus spake 'Donald Hall (halldj@lis.ab.ca)':
[snip]
 DH> About 10 years ago Hewlett Packard had an excellent programmer's
 DH> calculator. You should check with an HP dealer to see if they still make
 DH> them.

They don't. I had one, loved it, lost it, miss it.

-- 
Brad Howes                          Motorola E-Mail ID: XBH001
EMT Development                     SMTP E-Mail: bhowes@cssun3.corp.mot.com
Motorola Corporate - MD H1780       Voice: 602 441 1522  Fax: 602 441 5455
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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on a DOS compatible Mac. Possible?
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:00:29 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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T. Austin wrote:
> It certainly sounds pretty good.
> 
> I've heard of companies running OpenStep wanting to stick with
> Rhapsody on Intel machines when it is released. Is this just
> because they don't want to upgrade their hardware to the PowerPC
> platform due to cost? I just can't see why they would want to
> stick with an obviously less superior platform when they can
> upgrade to the latest in technology that still has a lot of head
> room for improvement.

Well, if you are a company that has spent $3000 - $5000 per
employee on platform A and it is getting the job done then you
would not want to throw away that investment until you had
depreciated it fully (computers depreciate over 5 years). Further,
if you are developing software that will be running on platform
A you would not want to do your development on platform B since
you would then have nowhere to test your code on the target
platform. Other parts of the company might also be using platform A
and it would be a big headache if the IS department had to support
both platforms A and B. Also, if the entire company is buying
platform A then it might be getting quantity discounts. Performance
is not the only metric. Probability of future performance is
almost NEVER a metric.

When the Mac far outstrips the PC in performance those companies
that are using PC's to develop for OPENSTEP will likely switch.
That day has not yet arrived.

> When you say the NeXT is turning your head, what are you implying?
> I mean, in some form or another, OpenStep is going to be running
> on the Mac soon anyway.

I'm saying that I would be willing to give up my PowerComputing
PowerWave 604/132 (same motherboard as a PM9500/132) and do
all my work and play on the NeXTstation, with a little support
from my Linux box (I need something that can run Netscape). I
would even be willing to run OPENSTEP on an intel box as my
only system. There is no other OS, except for MacOS, that I have
liked enough to say that I would use it exclusively.

- Jeff Dutky
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:57:07 -0700
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In article <5gs5cg$ja21@castor.cca.rockwell.com>,
embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) wrote:

> The ignorance of C++ advocates is stunning!
> The example below is just simple polymorphisim as described.  Note that all 
> of the methods MUST be virtual for the example to work.
> 
> Several comments were implied.  
> First that the absence of "constructors" is somehow a problem.  Constructors 
> are one of the worst mis-features of C++.  All kinds of special rules about 
> what can and can not be done in constructors greatly complicates the 
> language.  Objective-C does not need any of that.  If you want to control 
> memory allocation, overload +allocWithZone: or +alloc.  That is seldom 
> necessary or desired.  Overload -init to do most useful class initialization.

Constructors have nothing to do with memory allocation. If you want to
control how objects are allocated you can override (and, if need be,
overload) the global operator new. Constructors were added to the language
so that objects could be automatically initialized to a good state before
they're used. OTOH Objective-C seems to handle this through the convention
of calling init() immediately after creating a new object. Maintaining an
object's invariant is such an important part of OOP that it seems silly to
rely on the hazards of programming by convention.

> C++ suffers from the fragile base class syndrome.  Note the following code:
> class Node {
>   protected:
>     Node                *nextNode;
>   public:
>     Node();
>     Node *nextNode();
>     void setNextNode(Node *aNode = NULL);
> };
> 
> class TwoWayNode : public Node {
>   protected:
>     TwoWayNode          *previousNode;
>   public:
>     TwoWayNode ();
>     TwoWayNode *previousNode();
>     void setPreviousNode(TwoWayNode *aNode = NULL);
> };
> 
> Assume reasonable implementations for the above classes.
> 
> TwoWayNode A;
> TwoWayNode B
> TwoWayNode C
> A.setNextNode(B);                                       // This works 
> C.setPreviousNode(A.nextNode());        // This does not! (fragile base class)

As others have pointed out this is not the fragile base class problem.
However it is a nice illustration of the different philosophies between C++
and Objective-C. My guess is that you're complaining about the fact that
you cannot assign a Node* to a TwoWayNode* in C++ and that you would handle
this in Objective-C by using the id type. What this says to me is that you
can quickly slap together some code in Objective-C by sacrificing type
checking. OTOH C++ almost forces you to spend more time on design time up
front. This will take longer but I'd argue that you'll usually come up with
a better design and the strong type checking will make any piece of code
using your class more reliable.

For the record I do see the value in languages with more dynamism than C++.
However I strongly suspect that in the majority of the places it's used in
Objective-C programs it would be possible to come up with a staticly typed
solution in C++ that's as good or better.

  --Jesse
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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 24 Mar 1997 08:53:48 GMT
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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yospe@hawaii.remove.this.edu (Nathan F. Yospe) wrote:
>necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:
>
>:alertArea->displayTextColorBlinkInterval("Connection dropped", RED, YES, FAST);
>alertArea->displayText("Connection dropped", 
>                       /*Color*/ RED, /*Blink*/ YES, /*Interval*/ FAST);

Oh, that's so much prettier, you have a real aesthetic sense about you.

>Your point?

Is just beyond your grasp.

>:[alertArea displayText:"Connection dropped" color:RED blink:YES interval:FAST];
>
>Ugh. Unwanted baggage. I don't really want to be doing all of that every
>time. Especially because, in the class of which alertArea is an instance,
>I would certainly have created the Color, Blink, and Interal enumerated
>types, so the prototype of the function would be
>WindowThingie::displayText(char *const text, Color c, Blink b, Interval i);
>or better yet:
>WindowThingie::displayText(const String& text, Color c, Blink b, Interval i);

What does the prototype have to do with the readability of the invocation?

>:Which is easier to follow?
>
>The C++. You know, this thread might get a little more interesting if a
>copy were forwarded to comp.lang.c++.... nah, too mean. Tell you what...
>I'm learning objective C, why don't you go learn C++, as you seem to have a 
>little trouble with it.

I'll try as soon as you give up smoking crack.


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From: Stephen Keegan 
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
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Donald Hall wrote:
> 
> In article ,
> jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck) wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >    I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY
> > calculator(hardware). (the conversion features in the CASIOs
> > are nice but are really cumbersome to use, and those nifty
> > software version just dont quite cut it). If anyone outta there
> > knows some company who sells such a thing, would you please
> > email me? Thanks much in advance.
> >
> > -Jake 
> 
> About 10 years ago Hewlett Packard had an excellent programmer's
> calculator. You should check with an HP dealer to see if they still make
> them.

HP-16C, don't know if they still make them.

Stephen Keegan
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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 23 Mar 1997 23:33:36 -0800
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In article <5h45ac$fn9$2@news.xmission.com> don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) writes:

   Well, if NeXT ever finishes the link+go or whatever is was that they
   were calling it (which was supposed to be in 3.3 and then got pushed
   to 4.0 and then got pushed to ???) you'd have the ability to swap
   newly compiled code in and out while the app was running.  You can
   already do this with the Asymetrix Supercede Java IDE, by the way.

And you have been able to do what with CommonLisp and some C
environments for years.  It's not like it's new technology or
something.

Thomas.
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From: Robert Lutwak 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Date: 22 Mar 1997 13:45:31 GMT
Organization: Erol's Internet Services
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In <33333A3A.AF9@perkin-elmer.com> Stephen Keegan wrote:
> 
> > In article ,
> > jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck) wrote:
> > 
> > >    I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY
> > > calculator(hardware).> HP-16C, don't know if they still make them.
> 

My HP28C (also the 28S) does a pretty good job of conversions, as well as 
providing all of the standard arithmetic and bitwise operations (AND, XOR, 
etc.) in at least 4 bases (decimal, octal, hex, and binary).


--
Robert Lutwak                       robert@amo.mit.edu

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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 24 Mar 1997 11:04:03 -0800
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yospe@hawaii.remove.this.edu (Nathan F. Yospe) writes:
> necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:
> 
> :alertArea->displayTextColorBlinkInterval("Connection dropped", RED,
>					     YES, FAST);
> alertArea->displayText("Connection dropped", 
>                        /*Color*/ RED, /*Blink*/ YES, /*Interval*/ FAST);
> Your point?

Fair enough.  I still find the ObjC version cleaner, and better due to
its self-documenting nature.

> :[alertArea displayText:"Connection dropped" color:RED 
>                   blink:YES interval:FAST];
> 
> Ugh. Unwanted baggage. I don't really want to be doing all of that every
> time. 

So don't.  For most well-designed classes, the designer's probably
also included a simple displayText: method which uses the default
values for color, blink, and interval.

I'd expect the same from any C++ class designer worth his salt.

> Especially because, in the class of which alertArea is an instance,
> I would certainly have created the Color, Blink, and Interal enumerated
> types, so the prototype of the function would be
> WindowThingie::displayText(char *const text, Color c, Blink b, Interval i);
> or better yet:
> WindowThingie::displayText(const String& text, Color c, Blink b, Interval i);

So?  To be honest, I don't care about the prototypes -- the class
designer should only have to type them in once, and the people using
the class should only have to look at them occasionally for reference.
I'd rather see more information on the code that *uses* the class.  If
I have to go to a header file to figure out what the code is doing,
I'm wasting time which would be better spent fixing the problem.

> :Which is easier to follow?
> 
> The C++. You know, this thread might get a little more interesting if a
> copy were forwarded to comp.lang.c++.... nah, too mean. 

Sigh.  Perhaps your typing time would be better spent actually saying
_why_ it's easier to follow.  So far your entire argument is based in
two words: `unwanted baggage'.  I'm interested to know why you think
that it's unwanted; your arguments thus far are less than compelling.

> Tell you what...  I'm learning objective C, why don't you go learn
> C++, as you seem to have a little trouble with it.

To the contrary, many of us have known and programmed in C++ for most
of the past decade, and Objective-C for a good chunk of that time as
well.  We find Objective-C to suit us better, and believe that the
code written in it is often cleaner, more resuable, and more readable
than its C++ counterparts.
-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: boudra@cimac-res.univ-lyon1.fr (Abdel BOUDRAA)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help:display of an image using NXImage class
Date: 24 Mar 1997 20:13:20 GMT
Organization: UCBL
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Dear colleague:

I'd like to find source to display a simple gray level image (not a ps 
or eps..) using NXImage class.

Thanks in advance
--------------------
boudra@cimac-res.univ-lyon1.fr

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From: neuss@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nospam (Christian Neuss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: WO, ActiveX and MS Visual InterDev
Date: 24 Mar 1997 19:52:01 GMT
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Arne Herseth (arneha@internet.no) wrote:
> How do you communicate with an ActiveX component in WO? Through a
> COM-interface?
Via HTTP, nothing else will get past the Firewall. For the *vast*
majority of applications, this is perfectly sufficient. 

> How do you convince a fanatic MS worshipper that WO is better than MS
> Visual InterDev? (Must be very convincing considering the redicoulous price
> difference in favour of MS Visual InterDev).
Make him or her implement a stateful CGI application with a slightly
complex application logic. Everything that's more complex then a multi
user shopping cart implementation with a remote database backend should 
do. It's a one day job with WO, but a complete nightmare with any other 
system.

Regards, Chris
--
//  Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
//  http://www.informatik.th-darmstadt.de/~neuss/
//  fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Mar 1997 00:32:48 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy John Stevens  wrote:
: I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Java compilers producing *native*
: executable code in the very near future.  So, you see, that would mean
: that Java would be both portable, and fast enough.

SFW. Java's runtime is an order of magnitude more complex than ObjC's.
Native compilation isn't going to change that. 1.1's dynamic method
dispatch means no cheating and inlining every function. 


-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
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Message-ID: <199703241742.AA25113@ergotech.com>
From: Drake Woodring 
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 10:48:55 -0700
Subject: problems with frameworks.
Lines: 16

*This message was sent using a trial version of CommuniGate(tm) UUCPGate*
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  I have just converted all the bundles in a project into frameworks.  The  
problems I am having is that I can't tell project builder all of the  
frameworks that will be loaded (they will not be know until runtime).  I  
heard that there is a way of getting a framework just by knowing a class  
inside of it (as long as they are in the framework path).  the objc_getclass  
doesn't work unless the framework is loading into project builder.
  The next problem.  How do you get access to a nib file in a framework that  
is already loaded.  NSBundles bundleForClass returns the mainbundle, not the  
framework.  So I can only hardcode the directory that the nib file resides  
in.
  The last thing is...Where do you read about frameworks.  The only info I  
could find was in NSBundle.  And that isn't specific enough.

  Well, I will apreciate any suggestions.  Thanks.
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From: andydunn@op.net (Andy Dunn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to create MPEG movies?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 00:10:05 GMT
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In <5h49n8$1le2@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck wrote:
> I have done a lot of searching on the net.  I have not found a reasonably 
low 
> tech way of making mpeg or quicktime movies.
> 
> I have a lot of original art work.  I want to create movies with simple 
> transitions from frame to frame.  How can I do this ?
> 
[ snipped ]
> 
> I am desperate and I have a large budget.  Can someone help ?
> 
> 
> 

You can make MPEGs on a NeXT fairly easily.  I ported the Berkeley MPEG 
encoder
several years ago, and the executable (black, NS 2.1 or later) was still at 
their FTP site 
the last time I checked.


Hope that helps.
_andy

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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Why lose "return self" in Openstep?
Date: 24 Mar 97 14:09:41
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In-reply-to: richard@brainstorm.co.uk.'s message of 19 Mar 1997 20:12:01 GMT

In article <5gphah$80i$1@sys10.cambridge.uk.psi.net>,
	richard@brainstorm.co.uk. (Richard Frith-Macdonald) writes:
   "Andrew J. Smith"  wrote:
   >Mark Trombino wrote:
   >> "Previously, methods returned self by convention. Some methods
   >> return self to indicate success and nil to indicate failure.
   >> Returning self to indicate a Boolean value or returning self
   >> without any associated meaning made the API more confusing."
   >> 
   >> I can live with this convention, but I don't know if I agree
   >> with it.  I don't think that it made the API anymore confusing,
   >> but it did make my code a little more elegant.
   >
   >While I'm certainly not an Objective-C wizard, I understand that
   >the reason for this is to increase performance of DOE (Distributed
   >Objects Everywhere?)  programs.  If "return self" is used in a
   >program that has been segmented over a network, then the object is
   >packaged up and returned over the network.  This is not usually
   >necessary and can create a severe performance problem.
   >
   >Someone feel free to correct me if this is wrong.
   >

   I think this is probably wrong -
   When a method returns self, it would return a Proxy, not a copy of
   the object, and the amount of data sent over the network would be
   minimal.  And with the retain-release conventions used, the Proxy
   should be auto-released unless your code retains it, so you don't
   even need to worry about getting loads of local Proxy objects
   hanging around.  Perhaps the Openstep release notes are actually
   telling the truth, and the people at next really did just think
   that the old convention was confusing.  Perhaps they have had
   customer feedback to that effect?

In the context of PDO, if the method looks like:

    -(void)doSomething;

Then the message can be sent without waiting for a reply - just throw
it to the wind.  If you have a set of those to send, not having to
wait for the round trip is a _significant_ win.  Also,

    -(BOOL)doSomething;

will clearly take much less work than:

    -(id)doSomething;

In the second case, the PDO stuff has to hash the return value to a
unique identifier to send across the network, which then used as an
index into a table of proxies in the caller's space.  Not all _that_
big of a time sink, but if you are indeed only interested in
true/false, then BOOL is much more streamlined.

There was also probably some element of "make a clean break".  NeXT's
first version of DO had a fatal flaw in the reference counting - for
unknown reason, someone decided to have -free return nil if the object
really was freed (ref-count went to zero) or self if it wasn't (still
outstanding references).  This sometimes made it impossible to free a
vended object.  They _could_ have fixed it by making -free always
return nil (as it should have in the first place), but someone no
doubt realized that the problem was in the ambiguity of using
conventions like this.

I have to say, I do overall like the newer interfaces.  Some
conveniences, like method chaining, are lost.  But harsh, painful
experience has taught me that it's very important to say exactly what
you mean when programming, and the new interfaces are somewhat better
that way.  The main thing I don't like is the lack of a psuedo-atomic
free method.  I always coded free like:

    anObject=[anObject free];

So that anObject went atomically from a valid object to nil, with no
possibility of sending a method to a freed object.  Now you have to do:

    [anObject release];
    anObject=nil;

or use a macro-helper (which loses the Obj-C-ness).  Sigh.  I'd have
been happy with:

    anObject=[anObject release];

with -release defined to return "A replacement object to be stored in
the released object's slot."  -release as a conversion to nil.

--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: thomas@gamelan.shnet.org.NOSPAM (Thomas Funke)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: <1997Mar22.093356.420@gamelan.shnet.org>
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In <5gl602$nbl@lal.interserv.com> James M. Curran wrote:

> 	In other words, the C++ code is always graceful, pretty, encapsolated,
> and easier to maintain.

Good joke :-)


After several years experience with C++ projects, I have to agree with 
Bertrand Meyer:

	"C++ is the only language which even makes Cobol look good"


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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling problem
Date: 25 Mar 1997 02:17:59 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
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In <5gku62$nu7@epcot.pomona.edu> it appeared that Jim Kieley wrote:
> I am trying to compile a couple of PD things using Openstep 4.0 that have  
> similar error messages (they compile fine with GNU C on on other 
platforms).  
> Is anyone willing to give me hints at what the problem might be?
> 
> > cc  -DSCRIPT_BIN='"/usr/local/etc/httpd/cgi-bin"'  -DNO_QUERY_OK -o uncgi 
> > uncgi.c
> > /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
> > _putenv
> > *** Exit 1
> 
> > cc -I/jim/qi-3.1B7/include  -L/jim/qi-3.1B7/lib -o apitest apitest.c 
> > libqiapi.a -ll
> > /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
> > _strdup
> > *** Exit 1

I've seen this problem when trying to compile various things under OpenStep 
4.1  I have a NeXTSTEP 3.3 box, and usually the same thing chokes and dies in 
the same way.

I'm pretty certain that, in the stuff where I've had problems, these 
undefined symbol errors are the result of poor C++ support in the older gcc 
that ships with current OpenStep.  (I can't get a newer gcc to compile, 
either, which is a bummer.)

 Unless I can figure out how to compile gcc-2.7.2.x on OpenStep/NeXTSTEP, 
I'll have to wait for OpenStep 4.2 (which has basically been re-scoped to 
become Rhapsody DR1).  That will have an updated gcc in it (according to the 
4.2 release notes -- I'm pretty certain that it will be there because 
OpenStep/NT 4.1 already has the updated compiler.)

I thought about bootstrapping by first compiling a *slightly* newer gcc, and 
moving up one or two revs at a time, until I get to something modern, but I 
really don't have the time for that, if I can avoid it (and whos to say that 
it would work anyway -- its just a theory.)

i know that *somebody* has got this to work, because i've seen references to 
it in release notes in some pd app or another -- but i can't remember which 
one.

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: kwong@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Kai S. Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Ticker tape palette?
Date: 22 Mar 1997 18:57:33 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
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Hello,
	Is there a ticker tape like palette where I connect to a data
source?  Thanks


kai 
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 16:31:23 -0700
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In article <3335967D.32A4AC5C@nilenet.com>, Valient Gough 
wrote:

> I haven't seen any complaints yet, so I'm leaving the newsgroups list
> as-is.
> 
> Jesse Jones wrote:
> > Constructors have nothing to do with memory allocation. If you want to
> > control how objects are allocated you can override (and, if need be,
> > overload) the global operator new. Constructors were added to the language
> > so that objects could be automatically initialized to a good state before
> > they're used. OTOH Objective-C seems to handle this through the convention
> > of calling init() immediately after creating a new object. Maintaining an
> > object's invariant is such an important part of OOP that it seems silly to
> > rely on the hazards of programming by convention.
> 
> In C++ you'd override a global function (new), in ObjC you'd override
> +alloc. In C++ you have one or more constructors (aka initializers)
> denoted by the same name as the class, in ObjC, those initializers are
> often called -init*.
> 
> Every object has an interface, if you can't be bothered to adhere to the
> "convention" of using that object's interface... well, that would
> certainly qualify you as a hazard.  Seriously, in ObjC, creating an
> object is not fundamentally different from using one.  This is nice if
> you want to make use of the dynamic features of ObjC.  You could, for
> instance, create a new class from something given to you externally
> without ever knowing what type it was.

But some interfaces are better than others. I'm sure you'd agree that a
class that required you to follow a rigid five step process to initialize
an object to a valid state would be a poorly designed class. Objective-C
has the same problem (although not to the same degree). Whenever you
require people to follow a certain procedure to get correct results you're
leaving an opening for bugs to creep in. Ideally it should be impossible
for clients to wind up with an object whoose invariant doesn't hold. In C++
this is often possible. In Objective-C it is not because anyone can forget
to call the init method.

> [fragile base class stuff]
> > As others have pointed out this is not the fragile base class problem.
> > However it is a nice illustration of the different philosophies between C++
> > and Objective-C. My guess is that you're complaining about the fact that
> > you cannot assign a Node* to a TwoWayNode* in C++ and that you would handle
> > this in Objective-C by using the id type. What this says to me is that you
> > can quickly slap together some code in Objective-C by sacrificing type
> > checking. OTOH C++ almost forces you to spend more time on design time up
> > front. This will take longer but I'd argue that you'll usually come up with
> > a better design and the strong type checking will make any piece of code
> > using your class more reliable.
> 
> This appears to be turning into an argument of how to define "fragile". 
> Strong type checking != better design..  If you want to make such an
> argument, you should define what 'better design' means to you.  Maybe
> you haven't used a dynamic language before, but strong type checking and
> 'better design' can be very contradictory ideas at times.  OTOH, if your
> definition of 'better design' includes Strong type checking, then, I'd
> have to agree, C++ is better for you.

There is no question in my mind that strong type checking is a good thing
(and apparently the NeXT engineers agree with me since I hear they have
moved away from the indiscriminate use of the id type). I view dynamic
language features as I do multiple inheritance in C++: a useful tool that
is easy to abuse.

  --Jesse
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 14:07:40 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 22-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by Loren Petrich@netcom.com 
>         I may have been too literal-minded in assuming that every dispatch
> uses a string rather than an enum;

You were wrong in assuming that _any_ ObjC dispatch uses a string.

At compile time, the compiler associates the Method string with a
selector.  You can also do that directly yourself via the @selector()
syntax, which is often used to forward messages, as an example from
NeXT's docs illustrates:

"Even if your class can't inherit the negotiate method, you can still
'borrow' it by implementing a version of the method that simply passes
the message on to an instance of the other class:

- negotiate
{
    if ( [someOtherObject respondsTo:@selector(negotiate)] )
        return [someOtherObject negotiate];
    return self;
}"


Code like:

> if the ObjC compiler is smart enough, 
> it might do something like translate
>  
>         [obj M: arg1]
>         [obj M: arg2]
>         [obj M: argc]

...is transformed into:

 objC_msgSend(obj, (SEL) some_int, arg1)

....where some_int == @selector(M).  This is also resolved at compile
time, and the struct objc_selector * (typedef'ed as SEL), is effectively
just a 4-byte hashed value associated by the runtime system with the
full C string of the method name.  Obj-C message dispatch therefore
involves a hashtable lookup of the function implementation for a given
selector; it does not involve C strings.

However, if you want to deal with method names which are not known at
compile time, you use various runtime functions like:

   SEL sel_getUid(const char *aName)

...which will convert a method name into a selector at runtime, and you
can then use the selector returned to perform method dispatches
assuming, of course, that string corresponds to a valid selector.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 02:41:27 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Stephen Peters  wrote:
: Is this a problem in theory?  Yes -- even if the hash algorithm is
: perfect, there are only 65,536 possible method names (I'm using the
: GNU ObjC runtime as a reference, which uses integers as the hash
: codes).  Get an object with enough methods, and you can guarantee a
: collision. :-)

32 bit ints. 4294967296 methods. That's one bad ass class.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 24 Mar 1997 17:34:39 -0800
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kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) writes:

> On 03/22/97, Loren Petrich wrote:
> >That raises certain questions of uniqueness, since several
> >different text strings can map onto the same hash value.
> 
> All Objective C methods with the same name share the same method 
> selector, so this isn't a problem.

Um, the problem Loren is raising is one in which two different
methods, with two different names, could share the hash.  In other
words, when performing the lookup, there could be a collision in which
it's looking for one method, but because another method has the same
hash, it gets a completely different one.

Is this a problem in theory?  Yes -- even if the hash algorithm is
perfect, there are only 65,536 possible method names (I'm using the
GNU ObjC runtime as a reference, which uses integers as the hash
codes).  Get an object with enough methods, and you can guarantee a
collision. :-)

Has this become a problem in reality?  I don't know.  Anyone care to
say if they've had any weird errors that only went away when they
renamed their method?

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling problem
Date: 25 Mar 1997 02:44:07 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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Gary W. Longsine  wrote:
: > > /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
: > > _putenv
: > > /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
: > > _strdup

: i know that *somebody* has got this to work, because i've seen references to 
: it in release notes in some pd app or another -- but i can't remember which 
: one.

Uh, what? These are linker errors. Using -l44bsd (from sendmail) or
the putenv in NeXTanswers, or writing your own strdup() (malloc/strcpy),
should work fine.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 02:48:45 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
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In <332DA1F1.41A4@hom.net> it appeared that jeff parsons wrote:
> Hi, anyone got any suggestions on how to write business application
> to help someone with a B.A. in CS to get hired as a programmer. I
> have some programming skills but not the full stuff everyone wants?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff

Hi Jeff, 

There are lots of variables that go into picking your path.

How desperately do you need a job?  
How much time are you willing to put into it?  
How much can you spend on hardware/software before you get a job?  
Do you want to be a god, and learn cool stuff, or just be a Visual Basic 
programmer for the next 20 years?  

Here's my advice:

If you want to be *really* good, then learn to program in C, under UNIX.  If 
you start on UNIX, and start in C, you will likely master the skills required 
to quickly learn any new development environment, OS, or programming language 
that you will ever encounter.  (of course many of them you'll not like at 
that point, but it won't bother you much.)  After a couple of years, you'll 
get to the point where you can pick up a new language in about a week, if 
you're motivated to do so.

If you are still a student, get a copy of the OPENSTEP for MachOS 4.1 
Academic Kit 
OpenStep runs on intel PCs, but not just *any* pc -- check out the NeXT web 
site to make sure  hardware is supported BEFORE you buy hardware.  (same goes 
for any UNIX on intel).  Alternatively, you could buy a used NeXTstation Mono 
fairly cheap (get 32MB of RAM at least and a nice new 2gig disk put in it).  
check out:

	Spherical Solutions   http://www.orb.com/
	DeepSpace Technologies   http://www.deepspacetech.com/

Both of these companies have good reputations for dealing in used NeXT 
hardware.  

($300 through your campus bookstore, if they don't have a clue, call NeXT and 
they'll help you help them figure it out).  

http://www.next.com
(800) TRY-NEXT
http://www.stepwise.com
http://www.misckit.com
ftp://next-ftp.peak.org

this will get you started.  buy the following books:

Teach Yourself C in 21 days
Using C on the UNIX System  (O'Reilly & Associates http://www.ora.com)

Now, TYCin21Days used to be a really decent self-education book, there may be 
better ones now, i don't know.  I'm sure it's still OK.   UsingC is great, 
once you get the C basics.

Once you get up to speed in C, start right away with Objective-C under 
OpenStep's way cool IDE (integrated development environment).  NeXT is a 
niche player right now, but they were bought out by Apple in December, and 
are providing the foundation of Rhapsody - a new OS from Apple which will run 
on PowerMac and Intel based hardware.  It will be fun, cool, sexy, and you 
will enjoy programming in that environment (if you like programming.)

When you get to this point, (after you're up to speed in C, not before) call 
up Springer-Verlag (publisher) and get "NeXTSTEP Programming" by Garfinkek & 
Mahoney -- it's a bit out of date with respect to the NeXT programming 
environment, but it's still an excellent introduction in most respects (it's 
very well written.)

If you're not a student, and don't know any, get a Linux box and start in C, 
then move to Java when you're up to speed in C.

Expect to work 2-3 hours a night, 5-6 nights a week (assuming you're FT 
employed) and more if you can, for about 3 months before you're feeling your 
oats.  Don't be frustrated if nobody wants to hire you at that point.  You'll 
have a better understanding of what things you'll need to teach yourself to 
become valuable.  At that point you can start learning more about source code 
control systems, networking, other stuff.  Take some public domain apps with 
source code and modify them to make them do something you want.  

At some point you will have built up enough skills and confidence that you 
get hired as an entry level programmer and put through the grind.  

Best of Luck.

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Could somebody with 4.2PR do me a favour ?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 03:06:22 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
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Cc: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de

In <5h6j0n$hqs$1@news.belwue.de> it appeared that Gregor Hoffleit wrote:
> It seems that OpenStep/MachOS 4.2 (finally) has gcc-2.7.x. Provided
> this is true for the PR too, could somebody with the PR please do me a
> favour and compile a piece of code with the new cc ?
> 
> The piece of code are two assembler fragments from the kaffe Java VM
> package, that won't compile with the old, 2.5.8 based cc. I hope that
> this will work with the new one. Oh, yes, the interesting part if
> HP-PA asm... you know ,-) ?

does  actually  this pre-release?

as i understand it, this pre-release has never been pre-released, on MachOS 
anyway, due to the urgency of the PowerPC port and Rhapsody.

i'd love to find out that i'm mistaken, since I need the new compiler, too.  
(right now, i'm waiting.)

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: forwarding and  "super"
Date: 25 Mar 1997 03:19:53 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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NeXT manual "Object - Oriented Programming and Objective C Language" is 
very good.  Kudos to NeXT for producing high-quality docs (why there
 aren't author's name on in, BTW ?) I have a question, though.

Manual gives the following example of over-riding  respondsToSelector method
to account for forwarding:

- (BOOL) respondsToSelector: (SEL)aSelector
{
	if([super respondsToSelector:aSelector])
		return YES;
	else {
		/* test whether message can be forwarded */
	}
	return NO;
}

 It seems to me, that this method would return NO, if
 aSelector specifies method that is not defined either in
 superclass of a current class or in object it forwards to, but
 which is defined in the current class. Manual says that
 super starts searching for the method in the class 1 level
 higher in the hierarchy. That seems to tell to me, that it won't find
 methods of the current class.




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From: michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael)
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 03:08:45 GMT
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On 03/24/97, Gary W. Longsine wrote:
]If you are still a student, get a copy of the OPENSTEP for MachOS 4.1 
]Academic Kit 
]OpenStep runs on intel PCs, but not just *any* pc -- check out the NeXT web 
]site to make sure  hardware is supported BEFORE you buy hardware. 

 Openstep/Mach would work on pretty much any PC out there, although the
 suggestion to check NeXT site is a good one ( one may have
 problems getting OPENSTEP/Mach for Intel to recognize CD-ROM if it's not
 SCSI. I managed to install OPENSTEP, but it still does not see my Sony
 CD-ROM - I booted Linux from 2 floppies and used dd to copy image
 of OPENSTEP CD to hard drive, and installed from there)

] (same goes 
]for any UNIX on intel). 

 I don't think that's really correct, free Unixes (especially Linux) would run on
 pretty much any PC. The box has to be seriously weird not to run Linux.

] Alternatively, you could buy a used NeXTstation Mono 
]fairly cheap (get 32MB of RAM at least and a nice new 2gig disk put in it).  
]check out:
]
]	Spherical Solutions   http://www.orb.com/
]	DeepSpace Technologies   http://www.deepspacetech.com/

 How the speed  of those compares with OPENSTEP for Mach Intel on, say, 
Pentium/75mHz with 16MB memory ?


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From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Could somebody with 4.2PR do me a favour ?
Date: 24 Mar 1997 19:00:39 GMT
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It seems that OpenStep/MachOS 4.2 (finally) has gcc-2.7.x. Provided
this is true for the PR too, could somebody with the PR please do me a
favour and compile a piece of code with the new cc ?

The piece of code are two assembler fragments from the kaffe Java VM
package, that won't compile with the old, 2.5.8 based cc. I hope that
this will work with the new one. Oh, yes, the interesting part if
HP-PA asm... you know ,-) ?

	Gregor


--
| Gregor Hoffleit                        Mathematisches Institut, Uni HD |
| flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de      INF 288, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany |
| (NeXTmail, MIME)                      (49)6221 54-5771    fax  54-8312 |
| PGP Key fingerprint = 23 8F B3 38 A3 39 A6 01  5B 99 91 D6 F2 AC CD C7 |
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 00:26:26 -0000
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article <5h7fjt$52j@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael) wrote:

>  How the speed  of those compares with OPENSTEP for Mach Intel on, say, 
> Pentium/75mHz with 16MB memory ?

If you try to run OPENSTEP for Mach in only 16 MB of RAM, you're in for
a world of hurt.  Get 24 MB _at least_ (though I wouldn't want to run
it in 24), preferably 32 MB or more.  It runs decently in 32, I've got
64 and it's fine.  (Well, if OmniWeb weren't leaking all over the
place..)
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From: paul@pth.com (Paul Haddad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSUnarchiver Memory Leak
Date: 24 Mar 1997 21:07:39 GMT
Organization: Internet MCI
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Hi,

I'm trying to get rid of all the memory leaks caused by NSUnarchiver.  Here's 
the code that causes the leak.

[NSUnarchiver unarchiveObjectWithData:someData];  //someData = Archived 
NSMutableDictionary

Now looking back through some archives I saw a posting that talks about 
calling the following code to eliminate memory leaks.

- deallocData
{
  free((void*)[data bytes]);
  return self;
}

This does a good job of getting rid of most of the leaks, but I still have 
the following two leaks everytime I read in an object.

 default  0x07b1d564      2     NXCopyStringBufferFromZone, -[NSUnarchiver 
_decodeValueOfObjCType:at:], -[NSUnarchiver decodeValueOfObjCType:at:], 
-[NSValueDecoder initWithCoder:], -[NSUnarchiver _decodeObject], 
-[NSUnarchiver _decodeValueOfObjCType:at:], -[NSUnarchiver 
decodeValueOfObjCType:at:], -[NSDictionary initWithCoder:]
 default  0x07b1cd84      4     NSAllocateObject, +[NSObject allocWithZone:], 
-[NSUnarchiver _decodeObject], -[NSUnarchiver _decodeValueOfObjCType:at:], 
-[NSUnarchiver decodeValueOfObjCType:at:], -[NSDictionary initWithCoder:], 
-[NSUnarchiver _decodeObject], -[NSUnarchiver decodeObject]

I know that they are only 2 & 4 bytes leaks, but I still would like to 
somehow get rid of them...

See ya,
--
Paul Haddad 0765

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From: dbsi@datacorp.com (DBSI)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: *** FREE career planning guide ****
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:58:28 GMT
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		RECEIVE A FREE CAREER PLANNING GUIDE AT URL :
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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep on Java and Newton
Date: 21 Mar 1997 22:15:45 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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Bernhard Scholz (scholz@leo.org) wrote in article <5gmi0j$mc@xenia.informatik.uni-muenchen.de> 

]>
]Apple is probably going to drop the Newton. See latest press statements in 
]MacWeek.


 That's supremely bogus statement. Perhaps, we are reading different
 MacWeeks ? The one that _I_ read says nothing of a kind. In fact,
 the latest copy of mine "MacWeek" says that Newton division is untouched
 by the recent major layoffs.


-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM (Holger Hoffstaette)
Subject: Re: WO, ActiveX and MS Visual InterDev
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 Chriz Neuz wrote:
> Arne Herseth (arneha@internet.no) wrote:
> > How do you communicate with an ActiveX component in WO? Through a
> > COM-interface?
> Via HTTP, nothing else will get past the Firewall. For the *vast*
> majority of applications, this is perfectly sufficient. 

And for the rest you use D'OL, if you're on NT. The real solution
is, of course, to ignore the Active X part.

> > How do you convince a fanatic MS worshipper that WO is better than MS
> > Visual InterDev? (Must be very convincing considering the redicoulous
> > price difference in favour of MS Visual InterDev).
> Make him or her implement a stateful CGI application with a slightly
> complex application logic. Everything that's more complex then a multi
> user shopping cart implementation with a remote database backend should 
> do. It's a one day job with WO, but a complete nightmare with any other 
> system.

Either that, or just talk about dynamic metaprogramming in distributed,
cross-platform, scalable, fail-safe multi-tier architectures. That should
do the trick. If the victim is still showing signs of life after that,
make the M$ worshipper port his app to some big SMP iron running
Solaris, with average client RTT of < 1 sec, with every page dynamically
laid out with text coming out of a database.

If Perl is a swiss army knife, WebObjects is a katana, a sledge hammer
and a scalpel all in one.

Holger
--
hhoff@schwaben.de.NOSPAM                            LOAD "MACH_KERNEL",8,1

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From: marcel@sysyem.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help:display of an image using NXImage class
Date: 25 Mar 1997 08:10:09 GMT
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In article <5h6n90$5ui@tempo.univ-lyon1.fr> boudra@cimac-res.univ-lyon1.fr  
(Abdel BOUDRAA) writes:
 
> I'd like to find source to display a simple gray level image (not a ps 
> or eps..) using NXImage class.

Don't use NXImage.  Use NXBitmapImageRep.

Marcel
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: forwarding and  "super"
Date: 25 Mar 1997 07:54:32 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 34
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Michael writes
> NeXT manual "Object - Oriented Programming and Objective C Language" is 
> very good.  Kudos to NeXT for producing high-quality docs (why there
>  aren't author's name on in, BTW ?) I have a question, though.
> 
> Manual gives the following example of over-riding  respondsToSelector 
> method to account for forwarding:
> 
> - (BOOL) respondsToSelector: (SEL)aSelector
> {
> 	if([super respondsToSelector:aSelector])
> 		return YES;
> 	else {
> 		/* test whether message can be forwarded */
> 	}
> 	return NO;
> }
> 
>  It seems to me, that this method would return NO, if
>  aSelector specifies method that is not defined either in
>  superclass of a current class or in object it forwards to, but
>  which is defined in the current class. Manual says that
>  super starts searching for the method in the class 1 level
>  higher in the hierarchy. That seems to tell to me, that it won't find
>  methods of the current class.

Well, yes. This is an example of forwarding, remember? If this class is  
going to forward that message, then it must not have an implementation of  
the method (otherwise, forward: would never get called). This is the  
definition of what forwarding is. 
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: "Timothy J. Luoma" 
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 97 09:58:53 -0500
Subject: Ping "app"
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[ I put "app" in quotes because it isn't an "app" but just an
	executable file, in the old NeXT fashion]

I've been using 'Ping.app' quite a bit, and like it.

It has a 'choose host' option, but no hosts appear (perhaps due to  
my NetInfo setup, I'm not on a LAN).

The biggest frustration is that it doesn't allow me to 'paste' a  
hostname into its panel.

I was wondering if there was a way to add this to the program, but  
I don't know word one about programming.... I've manipulated apps  
before with InterfaceBuilder, but I can't do that with a single  
executable.

There's full source code available

ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/apps/internet/misc/Ping.2.0.NIHS.bs.tar.gz

If anyone is interested.

Thanks

TjL

ps -- please CC me if possible, as my Usenet access is.... frustrating.

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From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
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Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 08:23:14 GMT
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:21477 comp.sys.next.programmer:23763 comp.lang.objective-c:5458 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:202392 comp.sys.next.advocacy:61667

It is my experience that what many people describe as 'unwanted baggage' 
actually is a big time saver in the longer run.

E.g. I code with really long identifiers in C and my code has a lot of 
'unwanted baggage' especially during the development cycle. OTOH, I see 
almost no bugs and I still don't know much about debuggers (and that is my 
time saver). After working with Objective-C, my C code started to look like:

declaration: 

SomeObject_pt createSomeObjectWithFoo_AndBar_AndJoJoPtr(
	Foo_tp foo, Bar_tp bar, JoJo_pt joJoPt);

call
	SomeObject_pt newSomeObj = createSomeObjectWithFoo_AndBar_AndJoJoPtr( 
aFoo, aBar, aJoJoPt);

I use _ as the character that tells me the 'place' of arguments (like : in 
Obj-C). All my objects have create and destroy methods. Essentially, I can do 
a lot in C (except inheritance). When programming in C I am restridted to 
has-a relationships, but otherwise I prefer C to C++ (I have done extensive 
coding in both). And yes I type those long identifiers often by hand, the 
extra typing cost is negligable compared to the time lost when reading your 
own code after some time or when your code is read by others.

Objective-C however, is more supportive of such a style. Just MHO.

-- 
Gerben Wierda,

Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, 's-Gravenhage, The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922	Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/

"One foolish wise man can state more
	than a thousand wise fools can question."
"Doubters need to understand believes.
	Believers need not understand doubt."
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: Global addresses for Rhapsody Re: OpenStep on Java and Newton
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Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:25:53 GMT
Lines: 50

John Kheit  wrote:
> tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote:
> > IMHO they shouldn't try to move OpenStep to Newton but Newton
> > into OpenStep. OpenStep lacks a truely global address book,
> > notepad and similar things which the Newton solves quite nicely
> > (NeXTSTEPs address book handling is a shame IMHO. The folks at
> > NeXt can do a lot better stuff then that).
> 
> Well, Netinfo, I guess technically part of OPENSTEP and not OpenStep,
> does have a global address book.  Go into your ~/Library/Addresses
> directory, and select whatever *.addresses file you have there.
> Then open it as a folder (note this is a flat file).  When the mini
> browser opens up, select any rolodex file, and open the content
> inspector (Cmnd-2).  You'll see that you do in fact have a system
> wide mini database/address system...

Ok...now lets be honest. .address is a fast hack and not really a system 
feature.

As far as I know NeXTs French research team played with "property list 
archiving" a long time ago (the archiving mechanism is basically what 
NSArray/NSDictionary/andCompany are using under OpenStep) and since NeXT 
needed a way to feed the fax panel with data they took their code and 
included it. But .address was an "accident" and not an "OS feature".


Why is Mail.app not able to read .addresses ? Why has .addresses never been 
documented and was never enhanced ? Why is it such a pain to generate network 
wide .addresses (each user could generate his info and there could be some 
funky way via NetInfo to distribute them...if its there...NeXT really managed 
to hide it perfectly) ? Why is there no framework to deal with addresses etc. 
pp.
I could go on and on. I raved against this .addresses stuff quite ften in the 
last couple of years.

The Newton _really_ knows about addresses...knows how to dial a number based 
on your current geographic location...etc. pp. 
Taligents "People-Things and Places" was a nice concept and it really doesn't 
take a lot of "brain-power" to implement something like that. IMHO addresses 
are such a central concept that there should be a documented, supported, 
systemwide concept for them right from the start.

Most of the things which are "broken" or "ugly" in OPENSTEP from the user 
perspective could be fix so easily...but NeXT (for understnadable reasons) 
never payed much attention to that.
But IMHO Apple really must spend money in these areas...and the Newton has 
some really nice concepts which would fit quite nicely into Rhapsody.

AlohA
	Tomi 
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From: embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: C++ Mystery
Date: 22 Mar 1997 21:23:04 GMT
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Use extern "Objective-C" and use a c++ compiler.

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From: embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Loading bundles?
Date: 22 Mar 1997 21:46:02 GMT
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In <33313894.CC4@rrg.msk.su> Timur Alavidze wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I have a class (say NSMyBaseClass) that I have made into a bundle. 
> I try to implement a subclass of the NSMyBaseClass and include it in
> other bundle.
> When I try to load these two bundles, the second one produces a load
> error. 
> How can I have this class and its subclass exist in DIFFERENT bundles?
> 
> Timur Alavidze
> 
Hello Timur.

The order of bundle loading is important.  See the EBBundle class in the 
VIVID source that you have.  For those of you who do not have that source, 
see RZBundle from your favorite archive site.

In Openstep, frameworks eliminate this problem in most cases.

 to left or top to bottom or whatever.  Look at the 
capabilities of the NSText sub-framework.  If that does not do what you want, 
you will probably need to write some code.

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From: s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu (Weiyuan W Chin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developing for Rhapsody
Date: 22 Mar 1997 23:02:54 -0500
Organization: Virginia Commonwealth University
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wtinternet@aol.com (WTInternet) writes:

>Mr. Chin, in response to the statement of silence regarding OPENSTEP
>development, I would like to ask, where would good resources for learning
>O-S Dev be?  I am new to programming, a long time Mac and NeXT fan, and
>looking to write some code for what I believe an awesome new OS.  I read
>that O-S Dev is much easier than on other platforms.

First, I am sorry I haven't been able to respond to you in
e-mail... the hazards of an overloaded schedule.

Anyways...

First, the assertion that O-S Dev is _much easier than on other
platforms_ needs to be addressed. I believe that while the native
OPENSTEP development environment does make it much easier for a
well trained programmer to create complex enterprise level
software with a high degree of code re-use and maintainability as
well as increasing the ability for a smaller team to produce more
capable software, I cannot say that OPENSTEP _categorically_ makes
it much easier to develop software than other platforms. 

Understanding the reasons behind 3 tier object development and
then translating that into clean, efficient and maintainable
design and implementation from a clean sheet and often convoluted
client specifications still requires a degree of expertise that
is far beyond the ability to understand particular esoterics of
language structure (insert nasty C++ thing here).

Since you are just starting, decide what *kind* of programmer you want
to be (at least a first). Do you just want to pound out some
code? Are you looking to be a high priced consultant working on
enterprise level mission critical applications? Do you want to
work at the kernel or device driver level? This will determine
the level of education required in computer science and object
design. Read up on object design (ie. the Booch books) and Brad
Cox's work (Object-Oriented Programming 2nd Edition which covers
Objective-C - it's not OPENSTEP, but will provide a basis in
object development). Be sure to get good books on algorithms
(Ie. Sedgwick's Algorithms in C) and of course, a K&R C book as a
reference. If you just want to pound out some code or experiment
with OPENSTEP, then skipping them for now would be okay-but it
may haunt you later on.

As for learning OPENSTEP, there are several must haves. First,
the material that NeXT offers on-line on their web site is first
rate... their Object-Oriented Programming and the Objective-C
Language book is terrific. So is the Developer Tutorial.
Also, *definitely* go through the examples that NeXT provides.
Even the older, non-OPENSTEP examples can provide enlightenment
in object and application design, as long as there isn't
something later that superseded. it. :-)  There have also been 
some posts recently about books that have just come out.
Older NEXTSTEP books that are good include Pinson & Weiner's 
Objective-C Object-Oriented Programming Techniques and one
by Garfinkel (sp?). Unfortunately I've loaned mine out and
can't look up the exact reference. Note that books on software
patterns and OO development in general may apply - those that are
too deeply centered in C++ (especially those with C++ in the
title) probably are not good references. 

One way to learn OPENSTEP is to read as much about objects as you
possibly (the dynamic kind, not C++) and then go through the
Developer Tutorial to actually get your hand's dirty. Then read
more or re-read about objects again, then then dissect one or
more examples. Extend an example to do something else. Read
more about objects to learn why things are done a certain way.
Dissect a harder example. Then try your hand a building some
stuff by ripping objects out of examples and other available
source code and building a few new objects. Wherever you get
stuck and can't seem to make heads or tails, post to
comp.sys.next.programmer. <- that's why I was wondering why there
were relatively few newbie posts in csnp. Accelerate this process
by going to Dev Camp ($$$) _after_ some time trying to do this on
your own. 

Finally, since you are just starting to learn how to program, a
structured programming course or a tutorial on C is probably in
order. You will probably need it before you get too far immersed
in OPENSTEP... unfortunately (and fortunately for some)
Objective-C and therefore the current OPENSTEP has much to do
with C and therefore being proficient in C would help.

Good luck!

..Bill Chin
s0wwchin@atlas.vcu.edu
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From: marcel@sysyem.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: forwarding and  "super"
Date: 25 Mar 1997 13:41:50 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <5h80bo$3vv@news.next.com> MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)  
writes:
> Michael writes
> > NeXT manual "Object - Oriented Programming and Objective C Language"  
is 
> > very good.  Kudos to NeXT for producing high-quality docs (why there
> >  aren't author's name on in, BTW ?) I have a question, though.
> > 
> > Manual gives the following example of over-riding  respondsToSelector 
> > method to account for forwarding:
> > 
> > - (BOOL) respondsToSelector: (SEL)aSelector
> > {
> > 	if([super respondsToSelector:aSelector])
> > 		return YES;
> > 	else {
> > 		/* test whether message can be forwarded */
> > 	}
> > 	return NO;
> > }
> > 
> >  It seems to me, that this method would return NO, if
> >  aSelector specifies method that is not defined either in
> >  superclass of a current class or in object it forwards to, but
> >  which is defined in the current class. Manual says that
> >  super starts searching for the method in the class 1 level
> >  higher in the hierarchy. That seems to tell to me, that it won't find
> >  methods of the current class.
> 
> Well, yes. This is an example of forwarding, remember? If this class is  
> going to forward that message, then it must not have an implementation  
of  
> the method (otherwise, forward: would never get called). This is the  
> definition of what forwarding is. 

Not quite.  After all, this is 'respondsToSelector'.  As most classes  
won't implement this method, it will probably use NSObject's version.   
Does this mean that only NSObject's methods are considered when resolving  
'resondsToSelector:'?  

Well let's check the documentation:

'Returns YES if the receiver implements or inherits a method that can  
respond to aSelector messages,  NO otherwise.  The application is  
responsible for determining whether a NO response should be considered an  
error.'

It says '...the receiver implements...'.  So the fact that super is called  
is quite irrelevant, because even though the method search is started with  
the superclass of the class defining this method, the receiver (and thus  
the receiver's class) stays the same.  


Marcel
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <608858488427@digifix.com>
Date: 23 Mar 1997 05:00:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 347
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
Message-ID: <3027859093225@digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.

 Archives are available by ftp at

 ftp://ftp.stepwise.com/pub/Next_Announce_Archives

 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: mateev@ifor.math.ethz.ch
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Help: NextStep -> Openstep
Date: 25 Mar 1997 14:31:51 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETHZ)
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <5h8nkn$o1o$2@elna.ethz.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ifor19.ethz.ch
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23771 comp.sys.next.software:28777

Hi,

We just got Openstep for WindowsNT in our institute and I'd like to convert 
some Next code into Openstep. So far I know there exist tool for that, but I 
cannot find them. 
Can anybody help me ?


Thanks,
Bojidar
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: forwarding and  "super"
Date: 25 Mar 97 09:24:10
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 73
Message-ID: 
References: <5h7g8p$6ic@chaos.dac.neu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: port-18-10.access.one.net
In-reply-to: michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu's message of 25 Mar 1997 03:19:53 GMT
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:23772 comp.lang.objective-c:5459

In article <5h7g8p$6ic@chaos.dac.neu.edu>,
	michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael) writes:
   NeXT manual "Object - Oriented Programming and Objective C
   Language" is very good.  Kudos to NeXT for producing high-quality
   docs (why there aren't author's name on in, BTW ?) I have a
   question, though.

   Manual gives the following example of over-riding
   respondsToSelector method to account for forwarding:

   - (BOOL) respondsToSelector: (SEL)aSelector
   {
	   if([super respondsToSelector:aSelector])
		   return YES;
	   else {
		   /* test whether message can be forwarded */
	   }
	   return NO;
   }

    It seems to me, that this method would return NO, if aSelector
    specifies method that is not defined either in superclass of a
    current class or in object it forwards to, but which is defined in
    the current class. Manual says that super starts searching for the
    method in the class 1 level higher in the hierarchy. That seems to
    tell to me, that it won't find methods of the current class.

Close.  "super" is a special case that most people never question, and
many who do get confused ...

In general, messages to super start searching in the parent class for
the method you are calling - _but_, the receiver will still be self.
It just modifies where the method search starts.  Take the following
three lines:

    [super doSomething];
    [super performSelector:@selector( doSomething)];
    [self doSomething];

The middle line is actually the same as the third line (assuming that
the current class doesn't override -performSelector: to do something
weirder than normal).  It's calling the first -performSelector: method
found by searching from the superclass towards Object.  But
-performSelector: is then doing a search for -doSomething
implementation based on _self_, which is the same as self in the
caller.  So you end up with [self doSomething].

Translated to the code fragment you list, it means that you're calling
a superclass -respondsToSelector:, which is then going to base it's
search for aSelector on self, which is the same as self in the caller.

Hmm, I can even put it another way.  NeXT's Objective-C dispatches
messages using objc_msgSend( self, _cmd, ...).  objc_msgSend() looks
at information in self->isa to find the implementation for _cmd, and
executes it with all of the provided parameters (methods have "hidden"
parameters of self and _cmd).  Calls to super use objc_msgSendSuper(
super, _cmd, ...), where super is a special structure which contains a
receiver (self) and a class defining where to start the search.  You
potentially _could_ implement objc_msgSend() somewhat as follows:

    objc_msgSend( self, _cmd, ...) {
        struct objc_super super={ self, self->isa};
        return objc_msgSendSuper( super, _cmd, ...);
    }

Note that it defines the "where to start searching" in terms of self.
objc_msgSend() is somewhat of a special case of objc_msgSendSuper().

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://w3.one.net/~shess/

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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Finding leaky memory...
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:54:26 -0800
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
Lines: 23
Message-ID: 
Reply-To: Tim Luoma 
NNTP-Posting-Host: peak.org
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
X-Sender: luomat@kira
X-FTP: ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/
X-URL: http://www.next.peak.org/~luomat


I think one of the apps I'm running may have a memory leak.

I say that because my swapfile will continue to grow even when nothing is
happening or has happened for quite some time.

What are some telltale signs of leaky apps, or how can I run apps under
some program that will report memory leaks?

This is probably a very basic question, perhaps even an FAQ... is there a
programmer's FAQ?  (Usenet feed expires quickly...)

Thanks
TjL

--
TjL   New Submissions Coordinator for PEAK
META-URL: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NOTE: If you are having problems uploading to PEAK, tell me
Computer humor: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/humor



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From: paul@pth.com (Paul Haddad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Project Builder/Framework Problems
Date: 25 Mar 1997 15:07:03 GMT
Organization: Internet MCI
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5h8pmn$o65$2@news.internetmci.com>
Reply-To: paul@pth.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 166.44.57.158
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.8.11 Beta(i)

Hi,

I've trying to create an Aggregate project under OPENSTEP/NT 4.0.  I have 
three subprojects Framework, Tool and Application.  Now the Framework is used 
in both the Tool and the Application, so I need to have it compiled first.  
Unfortunately I see no way of getting the Framework to compile before the 
Application.  Any ideas on how to do this?

I took out the Application just to see if the rest of the project would 
compile and the Framework compiles fine, but my Tool subproj doesn't find any 
of the headers in the Framework, even though I've set them to be public.  Is 
this a bug in 4.0 or am I doing something incorrectly?


--
Paul Haddad

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From: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: N3DCamera question
Date: 25 Mar 1997 14:40:15 GMT
Organization: Ecole des Mines de Nantes
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5h8o4f$fkn@wfn.emn.fr>
Reply-To: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
NNTP-Posting-Host: buzz.info.emn.fr

Hi,

Is it possible to get a copy of the image that is displayed by an  
N3DCamera. I mean I want to do something like -copyPSCodeInside:to: So, I  
want the image of the interactive renderer, I don t want to have to render  
it with renderAsTIFF or renderAsEPS. My only way to have a TIFF image of  
the camera is to grab it with Grab.app. I have tried using N3DRIBImageRep  
and NXImage with no successes...

Any clue ?


Laurent.


--
=======================================================
Laurent Champciaux
Departement Informatique - Ecole des Mines de Nantes
4, rue A.Kastler - BP 20722 - 44307 Nantes Cedex 03
Tel: 33 2 51 85 82 18 (B220)	email: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Fax : 33 2 51 85 82 49
####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ix.netcom.com!petrich
From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> <5ghjc4$d92@lal.interserv.com>  
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:27:12 GMT
Lines: 15
Sender: petrich@netcom4.netcom.com
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:202596 comp.sys.next.advocacy:61716 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:21493 comp.lang.objective-c:5460 comp.sys.next.programmer:23776

In article ,
Charles William Swiger   wrote:

... Obj-C message dispatch therefore
>involves a hashtable lookup of the function implementation for a given
>selector; it does not involve C strings.

	That raises certain questions of uniqueness, since several
different text strings can map onto the same hash value. 

-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html


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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:46:39 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> <5ghjc4$d92@lal.interserv.com>    <5h4l9o$3m3$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
	
NNTP-Posting-Host: andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: 
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:202617 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:21494 comp.lang.objective-c:5461 comp.sys.next.programmer:23777 comp.sys.next.advocacy:61726

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 24-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by Stephen Peters@cygnus.co 
>> All Objective C methods with the same name share the same method 
>> selector, so this isn't a problem.
>  
> Um, the problem Loren is raising is one in which two different
> methods, with two different names, could share the hash.  In other
> words, when performing the lookup, there could be a collision in which
> it's looking for one method, but because another method has the same
> hash, it gets a completely different one.
>  
> Is this a problem in theory?  Yes -- even if the hash algorithm is
> perfect, there are only 65,536 possible method names (I'm using the
> GNU ObjC runtime as a reference, which uses integers as the hash
> codes).  Get an object with enough methods, and you can guarantee a
> collision. :-)

SEL's are 4-byte values, which are really just a pointer to a string
which is the name of the method-- ie, SEL's are guaranteed to be unique.

When I was talking about hash lookups, I was talking about looking up
the method implementation for a given class associated with a particular
selector, not about looking up a selector for a method name.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:06:51 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 24-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com 
>> Every object has an interface, if you can't be bothered to adhere to the
>> "convention" of using that object's interface... well, that would
>> certainly qualify you as a hazard.  Seriously, in ObjC, creating an
>> object is not fundamentally different from using one.  This is nice if
>> you want to make use of the dynamic features of ObjC.  You could, for
>> instance, create a new class from something given to you externally
>> without ever knowing what type it was.
>  
> But some interfaces are better than others. I'm sure you'd agree that a
> class that required you to follow a rigid five step process to initialize
> an object to a valid state would be a poorly designed class. Objective-C
> has the same problem (although not to the same degree).

No, it doesn't.

[object new] is usually a synonym for [[object alloc] init].  And
[object init] is usually a synonym for some more complex initialization,
lets call it [[object alloc] initWith: arg1] where you simply provide a
default value for arg1 (which was unspecified).

[ ... ]
> In Objective-C it is not because anyone can forget to call the init method.

This error happens to beginners learning the language.  Anyone who isn't
a complete novice doesn't have a problem with it-- either you get into
the habit of doing alloc followed by init, or else you use new instead.

[ ... ]
>> This appears to be turning into an argument of how to define "fragile". 
>> Strong type checking != better design..  If you want to make such an
>> argument, you should define what 'better design' means to you.  Maybe
>> you haven't used a dynamic language before, but strong type checking and
>> 'better design' can be very contradictory ideas at times.  OTOH, if your
>> definition of 'better design' includes Strong type checking, then, I'd
>> have to agree, C++ is better for you.
>  
> There is no question in my mind that strong type checking is a good thing
> (and apparently the NeXT engineers agree with me since I hear they have
> moved away from the indiscriminate use of the id type).

I don't believe NeXT's engineers indiscriminantly overused the generic
id type, although many of NeXT's classes like List, Hashtable, NSArray,
etc are intended to work with generic classes and hence must use id.  I
believe this situation is exactly equivalent to the usage of the (void
*) type.

>  I view dynamic language features as I do multiple inheritance in C++: a
> useful tool that is easy to abuse.

That's a perfectly reasonable way to view them, although a dynamic
language is more than that-- it can prevent the fragile base class
problem from ever happening, for instance.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 10:58:31 -0800
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David Young  writes:

> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Stephen Peters  wrote:
> : Is this a problem in theory?  Yes -- even if the hash algorithm is
> : perfect, there are only 65,536 possible method names (I'm using the
> : GNU ObjC runtime as a reference, which uses integers as the hash
> : codes).  Get an object with enough methods, and you can guarantee a
> : collision. :-)
> 
> 32 bit ints. 4294967296 methods. That's one bad ass class.

Oops.  Apparently, my brain dropped half the integer.  (For my next
trick, I will start using 4-bit characters.  The hard part is avoiding
punctuation, capitals, and any letter above `p'.)

In any event, the idea behind what I'm saying is still true.  It is
just that, as David rightly points out, you can only guarantee the
collision with a seriously bad-ass class.

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: giammarc@cs.unibo.it (Mario Giammarco)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ET6000 driver
Date: 25 Mar 1997 19:05:03 GMT
Organization: Cineca
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I have an ET6000. Because Next does not provide a ET6000 driver I would  
like to do it my own. The ET6000 has a BIOS VESA 2.0 compliant; so it can  
enable high resolutions and linear mode. I have seen that the s3 Virge  
driver uses the virge bios to change resolutions, but I do not know how  
use the bios in a display driver for nextstep.
Can I see the source of VIRGE display driver?
If not, somebody knows how to access BIOS?
Is anybody making a display driver so I can cooperate with him?
HELP!

Please reply me to giammarc@cs.unibo.it because I cannot read frequently  
news.

Thank You in advance for your replies!



--
Mario Giammarco               |           Tel/FAX +39-545-22965
Via Calamandrei,5             |            giammarc@cs.unibo.it
48022 Lugo (RA) -- ITALY      |       rac0043@racine.ravenna.it

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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 13:54:41 -0800
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Stephen Peters  writes:

>kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) writes:

>> On 03/22/97, Loren Petrich wrote:
>> >That raises certain questions of uniqueness, since several
>> >different text strings can map onto the same hash value.
>> 
>> All Objective C methods with the same name share the same method 
>> selector, so this isn't a problem.

>Um, the problem Loren is raising is one in which two different
>methods, with two different names, could share the hash.  In other
>words, when performing the lookup, there could be a collision in which
>it's looking for one method, but because another method has the same
>hash, it gets a completely different one.

First thing: I' not at all sure that the hash value is only 16 bits.
I believe, (but I haven't checked) that the hash value in a SEL
struct is 32 bits.  This makes the chances of a hash collision much
lower, and even if you do have methods whose names hash to the same 
bucket, whenever I've implemented a hash lookup, there is eventually
a string comparison.

>Is this a problem in theory?  Yes -- even if the hash algorithm is
>perfect, there are only 65,536 possible method names (I'm using the
>GNU ObjC runtime as a reference, which uses integers as the hash
>codes).  Get an object with enough methods, and you can guarantee a
>collision. :-)

Secondly, there is a seperate method table for *each* class.  You'd
have to have 65K methods in one class (not in the whole app!) for this
scenario to occur.  If you're writing an class with that many mehtods,
you really need to re-think your design.

BTW, the Application Framework in 4.1 has 3,070 methods. Quite a bit less
than 64K.

-jcr

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: forwarding and  "super"
Date: 25 Mar 1997 23:25:50 GMT
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In <5h7g8p$6ic@chaos.dac.neu.edu> Michael wrote:
> 
>  It seems to me, that this method would return NO, if
>  aSelector specifies method that is not defined either in
>  superclass of a current class or in object it forwards to, but
>  which is defined in the current class. Manual says that
>  super starts searching for the method in the class 1 level
>  higher in the hierarchy. That seems to tell to me, that it won't find
>  methods of the current class.
> 
It starts searching for the implementation of respondsToSelector: in the 
superclass.  The implementation of respondsToSelector: will still have the 
same self from which to look for other methods.

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From: brianw@sounds.wa.com (Brian Willoughby)
Subject: OPENSTEP 4.0 PR1 CD-ROM
Message-ID: 
Organization: Sound Consulting, Bellevue, WA, USA
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 21:44:39 GMT
Lines: 14

I missed the 4.0 release, jumping directly from 3.3 to 4.1
Do any of you out there still have a copy of the OPENSTEP 4.0 PRE-RELEASE
CD-ROM for Mach (Motorola) that you could loan to me for a short period?
My company, Sound Consulting, is doing some research into User Interface
options, and we would like to take a look at this.  As an active member of
NeXT's Enterprise Alliance Partners program, we have signed a non-disclosure
agreement with NeXT, and are therefore able to use this software without
breaking any agreements.

Please respond to Sound_Consulting@Sounds.wa.com, and I thank you in advance!
-- 
Brian Willoughby	NEXTSTEP and OpenStep Software Design Engineer
Sound Consulting	Bellevue, WA
BrianW@SoundS.WA.com	NeXTmail welcome
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:15:22 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 27
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 23-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by Loren Petrich@netcom.com 
>> ... Obj-C message dispatch therefore
>> involves a hashtable lookup of the function implementation for a given
>> selector; it does not involve C strings.
>  
>         That raises certain questions of uniqueness, since several
> different text strings can map onto the same hash value. 

The hash table being refered to is for mapping selectors into methods,
not for mapping method names (char *'s) into selectors.  The latter
mapping is done by keeping each selector string around in memory for the
life of the process, and the SEL is just a pointer to that string. 
Therefore each selector is unique.

Within the method implementation table, they presumably use a resizable
hash table with chaining with a size constrainted to be a power of two
(2 ^ n), and they use a hash function which masks off all but the n low
bits to determine which chain bucket the SEL refers to.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 03:47:57 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 65
Message-ID: <332e0c62.8006793@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>  <5eo65r$53l@lal.interserv.com>  <856715712.25573@dejanews.com> <5eqq6n$s7s@lal.interserv.com> <856776663.22260@dejanews.com> <5etptl$2tb@lal.interserv.com> <856930544.19004@dejanews.com> <33144F92.4095@online.disney.com> <5f5kn3$ndq@lal.interserv.com> <5fbln2$31e$3@news.xmission.com> <5fcss2$93i@lal.interserv.com> <5g0apb$a@news.ml.com> <5gde7t$4f5@lal.interserv.com> <5gjotg$h8j$1@news.internetmci.com> 
>Well, no, but... out of curiosity, how would one implement a lazy copy in
>Objective C? In my experience, 50% of the time when you do a deep copy, it
>is never utilized as such until the original goes out of scope, and there
>are often deep copy elements never modified. 
>

So, if I understand this right, "lazy copy" is being used to denote 
the following: duplicate the pointer to the object *until* either the 
object, or the "copy" is modified in some way. At which time, do a
deep copy. 

Is this right ? 

If so, there seem to be any number of ways to do this. For 
example (off the top of my head and probably overcomplex), 
let A be the class we want to make lazy copies of. We add 
additional functionality to A to implement the observer pattern
and then define a class LazyProxy which does four things
(note-- retain stuff is a NEXTSTEPism): 

	(0) Retains InstanceOfA. 
	(1) Forwards all "get" messages to A
	(2) Listens for notifications from A (for when A is 
		changed)
	(3) When it gets a set message, it sees if it is the 
		only proxy to A. If so, it does a 
			[self autorelease];
			self=instanceOfA;
			//slight problem here with retain counts that
			//	needs to be handled (but no big deal).

			[self setMessage:];
		otherwise, it creates a deep copy of InstanceOfA
		and does 
			[self autorelease];
			self=[instanceOfA deepCopy]; 	
			//slight problem here with retain counts that
			//	needs to be handled (but no big deal).

			[self setMessage:];

Now, we add the method -(A *) lazyCopy to A and have it return a 
freshly allocated copy of LazyProxy. 

If we wanted to be fancier, there is a slight problem here-- calling 
lazyCopy on an instance of LazyProxy doesn't quite do what we'd
expect (we get a proxy to the wrong object and, eventually, things 
can become out of sync faster than we'd want). But this is easy
enough to fix. We just need  LazyProxy's implementation of
 - lazyCopy has to be a little smarter (and not just a direct
forwarding). 

One nice aspect of this is that LazyProxy really doesn't know anything
about A (it simply forwards messages). Which means that we have one 
class for all our lazy copying needs (though we do need to implement
the observer pattern for A-- we don't quite get off scot free). 


Cheers,

Andy	

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From: Valient Gough 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:45:49 -0700
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I haven't seen any complaints yet, so I'm leaving the newsgroups list
as-is.

Jesse Jones wrote:
> Constructors have nothing to do with memory allocation. If you want to
> control how objects are allocated you can override (and, if need be,
> overload) the global operator new. Constructors were added to the language
> so that objects could be automatically initialized to a good state before
> they're used. OTOH Objective-C seems to handle this through the convention
> of calling init() immediately after creating a new object. Maintaining an
> object's invariant is such an important part of OOP that it seems silly to
> rely on the hazards of programming by convention.

In C++ you'd override a global function (new), in ObjC you'd override
+alloc. In C++ you have one or more constructors (aka initializers)
denoted by the same name as the class, in ObjC, those initializers are
often called -init*.

Every object has an interface, if you can't be bothered to adhere to the
"convention" of using that object's interface... well, that would
certainly qualify you as a hazard.  Seriously, in ObjC, creating an
object is not fundamentally different from using one.  This is nice if
you want to make use of the dynamic features of ObjC.  You could, for
instance, create a new class from something given to you externally
without ever knowing what type it was.


[fragile base class stuff]
> As others have pointed out this is not the fragile base class problem.
> However it is a nice illustration of the different philosophies between C++
> and Objective-C. My guess is that you're complaining about the fact that
> you cannot assign a Node* to a TwoWayNode* in C++ and that you would handle
> this in Objective-C by using the id type. What this says to me is that you
> can quickly slap together some code in Objective-C by sacrificing type
> checking. OTOH C++ almost forces you to spend more time on design time up
> front. This will take longer but I'd argue that you'll usually come up with
> a better design and the strong type checking will make any piece of code
> using your class more reliable.

This appears to be turning into an argument of how to define "fragile". 
Strong type checking != better design..  If you want to make such an
argument, you should define what 'better design' means to you.  Maybe
you haven't used a dynamic language before, but strong type checking and
'better design' can be very contradictory ideas at times.  OTOH, if your
definition of 'better design' includes Strong type checking, then, I'd
have to agree, C++ is better for you.

It is usually fairly easy to convert a C++ program to ObjC.  ObjC
doesn't force you to use run-time checking.  You don't *have* to use the
type 'id'.  You can do everything using a class-type, or a Protocol
(similar to a virtual base class), always have strong-type checking. 
OTOH, it can be *very* difficult to convert an ObjC program to C++,
because ObjC's dynamic features are not easily implemented in C++.

For example, take a stupid, simple ObjC method:

-somemethod: obj1  with: obj2
{
   id value = [obj1 getValue];
   [obj2 setValue: value];
   return self;
}

Now, this example is simple enough.. But what if it was a networked app,
those obj1 and obj2 id's could actually be just a generic network pipe
to a class instance on another processor, another machine, another
operating system type, etc.  There is one place where having dynamic
features is very convienent (and I might add, is a very good design).  

A message forwarder simply grabs all messages it doesn't understand,
encodes the message along with the arguments and sends them over to the
other end, which decodes and passes the message to the object it's
impersonating.  This code could have been written long before networking
was even considered, but it won't need to be changed to make use of it. 
It's been used for years on NeXT systems, you can pass generic C types,
or id's (which may cause the forwarder to create a new forwarding pipe
for that id).  Look in ObjC documentation or the gnu objc base classes
for more info / examples...

That forwarder only had to be written once to handle any class.. You
don't have to know how it works, you just have to use it's interface. 
You're apps don't have to know that the object they are talking to is
really on another system.  To me, that is a good design - reusable code,
clean interface...

There are, of course, many other places where ObjC -> C++ translation is
clumsy, but that's all the time I have for today. :)

regards,
Val
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 23 Mar 1997 20:54:36 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 26
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tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote:
> P.S. Try building a system with C++ which you want to update....but
> which you are not allowed to stop for a restart (running 24hours a
> day.. 365days a year). This is where the fun begins...and this is
> where Lisp and Smalltalk still will have some things to offer that
> even ObjC or Java can't solve really well.

Well, if NeXT ever finishes the link+go or whatever is was that they
were calling it (which was supposed to be in 3.3 and then got pushed
to 4.0 and then got pushed to ???) you'd have the ability to swap
newly compiled code in and out while the app was running.  You can
already do this with the Asymetrix Supercede Java IDE, by the way.
Of course, in both situations, you are doing it via the development
environment; in NeXT's case I think there were actually APIs so
that you'd be able to do this in other situations--the dynamic
linker's header files hint at this...and you really want that API.
Smalltalk and Lisp will probably always be easier to modify in this
way, however.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: jpalmer@be.com (Joseph Palmer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 19:34:23 -0800
Organization: Be, Incorporated
Lines: 28
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In article <5h0npr$sgb@boursy.news.erols.com>, Robert Lutwak
 wrote:

> In <33333A3A.AF9@perkin-elmer.com> Stephen Keegan wrote:
> > 
> > > In article ,
> > > jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck) wrote:
> > > 
> > > >    I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY
> > > > calculator(hardware).> HP-16C, don't know if they still make them.
> > 
> 
> My HP28C (also the 28S) does a pretty good job of conversions, as well as 
> providing all of the standard arithmetic and bitwise operations (AND, XOR, 
> etc.) in at least 4 bases (decimal, octal, hex, and binary).
> 

The 20S will also do conversions. I have yet to find a calculator
with a binary point though, it would have been really useful when
I was designing a floating point unit some years ago. 

J.

______________________________________________________________
Joseph Palmer             | Never join a titanic battle unless
CEO                       | you get to be the iceberg.  -- J.
VideoS2                   | Personal web site:
http://www.videos2.com    | http://www.best.com/~jpalmer
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From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Finding leaky memory...
Date: 23 Mar 1997 21:37:07 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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>What are some telltale signs of leaky apps, or how can I run apps 
under
>some program that will report memory leaks?

Under Mach I use leaks (I'm not sure where I get it). Under NT there's 
ObjectAlloc.app (or something like this)

Hope this will help.
Aleksey
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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 23:32:10 -0500
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Nathan Urban (nurban@vt.edu) wrote in article <5h763i$3k5@sps1.phys.vt.edu> 

]In article <5h7fjt$52j@chaos.dac.neu.edu>, michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael) wrote:
]
]>  How the speed  of those compares with OPENSTEP for Mach Intel on, say, 
]> Pentium/75mHz with 16MB memory ?
]
]If you try to run OPENSTEP for Mach in only 16 MB of RAM, you're in for
]a world of hurt. 

 Well, it's actually not too bad, although may be a bit slow with few large
 apps, like OmniWeb


] Get 24 MB _at least_ (though I wouldn't want to run
]it in 24), preferably 32 MB or more.  It runs decently in 32, I've got
]64 and it's fine.  (Well, if OmniWeb weren't leaking all over the
]place..)

 What those guys were thinking when they implemented ftp client
 in OmniWeb ? It always opens downloaded binaries in text editor
 (and I couldn't figure out the way to disable this behaviour)
 Mighty braindamaged way to do things.


-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: ehutch@hypnos.norden1.com (E. Hutchinson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXT/Career Position/ILL
Date: 13 Mar 1997 19:42:20 GMT
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Programmer/analyst/developer
NEXTSTEP--------------------Commercial experience
Objective C-----------------Commercial experience
EOF-------------------------A Plus
Opport8unity----------------Excellent
Must Be---------------------US Citizen or Greencard
To Be Considered------------Fax resume or mail a hard copy.

--
ehutch@norden1.com		(419) 893-6367 [fax]
Omni Search			(419) 893-6334 [voice]
1310 Craig
Maumee, Ohio 43537
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to create MPEG movies?
Date: 23 Mar 1997 22:09:44 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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I have done a lot of searching on the net.  I have not found a reasonably low 
tech way of making mpeg or quicktime movies.

I have a lot of original art work.  I want to create movies with simple 
transitions from frame to frame.  How can I do this ?

I will use any reasonable combination of computer systems to succeed.  I have 
evaluated Adobe Premeir and I think it is useless.  I looked into Macromedia 
explorer until I was told you have to use their player to play the movies 
back.  I want to be able to distribute movies as widely as possible (hence 
mpeg).

I am desperate and I have a large budget.  Can someone help ?


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From: biesingert@asme.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: TickleServices
Date: 14 Mar 1997 17:46:39 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Trying to get Fiend into the LaunchPath as suggestion in
the manual; unfortunately, the documentation of TickleServices
does not give a hint on how to modify Workspace/Add To LaunchPaths

# Add an entry to the Workspace LaunchPaths default.

set filenames [filenames]
set launchpaths [split [defaults read Workspace LaunchPaths ""] ";"]
foreach filename $filenames {
    lappend launchpaths $filename
}
defaults write Workspace LaunchPaths [join $launchpaths ";"]

Do u know? Thanks.

Thomas


---
Thomas E Biesinger, Engineering Department,
University of Cambridge, Trumpington Street,
Cambridge CB2 1PZ, UK, em: biesingert@asme.org,
vc: +44 1223 3 32869, fx: +44 1223 3 32662.
NeXT-Mail welcome, PGP-2.6.i key available.
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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 26 Mar 1997 13:23:17 GMT
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:

>   If we're not going to use pathological example... why did you use
>one? You exploited a difference between ObjC and C++ -- (ie, object
>costruction is a one step process in C++	and a two step process in
>ObjC) and build an example around that.  As the example Richard Cave
>posted, if we make this a two step process in C++ also, we get the
>expected result. 

When you allocate on the heap, it is a two step process (memory allocation - 
new, and initialization - constructor invocation).  Additionally, it is a 
real world example because when you subclass things in C++ where you don't 
have the source, you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in things done in 
the constructor.

TN
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From: tfrey@.next.com (Tony Frey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP 4.0 PR1 CD-ROM
Date: 26 Mar 1997 21:58:51 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 30
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	There's no difference in the UI between 4.0 and 4.1


In article  brianw@sounds.wa.com (Brian  
Willoughby) writes:
> I missed the 4.0 release, jumping directly from 3.3 to 4.1
> Do any of you out there still have a copy of the OPENSTEP 4.0  
PRE-RELEASE
> CD-ROM for Mach (Motorola) that you could loan to me for a short period?
> My company, Sound Consulting, is doing some research into User Interface
> options, and we would like to take a look at this.  As an active member  
of
> NeXT's Enterprise Alliance Partners program, we have signed a  
non-disclosure
> agreement with NeXT, and are therefore able to use this software without
> breaking any agreements.
> 
> Please respond to Sound_Consulting@Sounds.wa.com, and I thank you in  
advance!
> -- 
> Brian Willoughby	NEXTSTEP and OpenStep Software Design Engineer
> Sound Consulting	Bellevue, WA
> BrianW@SoundS.WA.com	NeXTmail welcome

--

----------------------------------------------
 Tony Frey                     tfrey@next.com
 NeXT Premium Support     http://www.next.com
----------------------------------------------
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From: Tom Hageman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Why lose "return self" in Openstep?
Date: 26 Mar 1997 23:03:16 +0100
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Lines: 34
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In article , you wrote:
> [...]  The main thing I don't like is the lack of a psuedo-atomic
> free method.  I always coded free like:
>
>     anObject=[anObject free];
>
> So that anObject went atomically from a valid object to nil, with no
> possibility of sending a method to a freed object.  Now you have to do:
>
>     [anObject release];
>     anObject=nil;
>
> or use a macro-helper (which loses the Obj-C-ness).  Sigh.  I'd have
> been happy with:
>
>     anObject=[anObject release];
>
> with -release defined to return "A replacement object to be stored in
> the released object's slot."  -release as a conversion to nil.

How about:

	anObject=([anObject release],nil);

It's clumsier than anObject=[anObject release]; would have been, but  
least it's all on a single line, and it kinda reads like your existing  
practice...

--
__/__/__/__/  Tom Hageman     [NeXTmail/Mime OK]
  __/ __/_/      IC Group   (work)
 __/__/__/        "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable
__/  _/_/                    from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: looking for: mmap() or equivalence
Message-ID: <1997Mar26.144638.47446@yogi.urz.unibas.ch>
From: frank@ifi.unibas.ch
Date: 26 Mar 97 14:46:38 MET
Reply-To: frank@ifi.unibas.ch
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Hello,

I wanted to install the msql data base on our OPENSTEP4.0 for mach system, but  
this requires the presence of the mmap library. BSD4.3 (or is it mach?) don't 
seem to have this. Is there any way out of this delemma?

Has anybody successfully compiled the older msql data base under OPENSTEP?

Many thanks for any hints.

Robert
-- 
Institut fuer Informatik           tel  +41 (0)61 321 99 67
Universitaet Basel                 fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15
Robert Frank                                        
Mittlere Strasse 142    rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail ok)  
CH-4056 Basel       X400: S=frank;OU=ifi;O=unibas;P=switch;A=arcom;C=ch
Switzerland  
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: searching for lockd and statd
Message-ID: <1997Mar26.171203.47447@yogi.urz.unibas.ch>
From: frank@ifi.unibas.ch
Date: 26 Mar 97 17:12:03 MET
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Hello,

I'm on the lookout for the sources of lockd and statd. I guess, from the 
information that I have found upto now, that these may not be publicly 
available. Niether the linux nor the FreeBSD source trees show anything alike.


The reason I need these, is that I am nfs mounting mail directories exported 
from an OPENSTEP4.0 for mach machine. The SOLARIS mail utility (mailx, and 
possibly also the OPENSTEOP mail application) will try to lock the files before 
making changes. As OPENSTEP for mach doesn't have these daemons, the processes 
will hang for ever, blocking the machines.

The NeXT FAQ doesn't reveal any information when searching for locks or statd 
(although there is a statd, but that isn't the 'full' version).

Many thanks for any help,

Robert
-- 
Institut fuer Informatik           tel  +41 (0)61 321 99 67
Universitaet Basel                 fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15
Robert Frank                                        
Mittlere Strasse 142    rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail ok)  
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From: lhow@ecr.mu.oz.au (Luke HOWARD)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling problem
Date: 27 Mar 1997 01:01:35 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, University of Melbourne
Lines: 12
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:  Unless I can figure out how to compile gcc-2.7.2.x on OpenStep/NeXTSTEP, 
: I'll have to wait for OpenStep 4.2 (which has basically been re-scoped to 
: become Rhapsody DR1).  That will have an updated gcc in it (according to the 

Are you sure about this?

I thought 4.2 was frozen, and Rhapsody DR1 was going to be for the
PowerMac only. But I'm just guessing.


-- luke

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP 4.0 PR1 CD-ROM
Date: 27 Mar 1997 02:31:04 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5hcm58$fds$1@news.xmission.com>
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tfrey@.next.com (Tony Frey) wrote:
> 	There's no difference in the UI between 4.0 and 4.1

But there is between 4.0 PR1 (which is what Brian wants) and all other 
releases of OPENSTEP or NEXTSTEP.  A big difference.

And sorry Brian, but I'm keeping my disk--it is a collector's item by now I'm 
sure.  :-)  Well, a curiosity, anyway.

Actually, fact is, the license for that release also includes a stipulation 
that we can't run the software after October 31, 1995.  (I think that's the 
date.  Fall '95 sometime, anyway.)  So even if you get a hold of a disk, if 
you install it and/or run the stuff on it you're violating the license.  
Happy thought, eh?  [Even as unpolished as that UI was, it really had some 
good points over the current UI.  I hope we see some of the nicer parts in 
Rhapsody.]

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: marcel@star.ali.bc.ca (Marcel Sutanto)
Subject: Mach name server problem on netname_lookup () (NS 3.3)
Keywords: netname_lookup, name server
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 00:47:06 GMT
Lines: 61

Has anyone seen this problem before with MACH name server on NS 3.3 with  
Intel3.3 Patch installed?

Here is the problem:


Platform:
	NS 3.3 with INTEL 3.3 Patch (which was supposed to fix this  
problem, but not quite)

	
We discovered that if the Mach name server is looking for a process X on  
another host B which happened to be down, the name server will block for  
10 seconds. Not only that, all  LOCAL interprocess communications will  
cease until the name server is unblocked. This typically takes 10 seconds.  
I can replicate this every time by running 3 processes. The local process  
X will not be able to communicate with local process Y while the local  
process Z is calling this function below:

ali_public bool  pm_check_proc_exists (const char *remote_process_name,  
const char *remote_host_name)
{
    kern_return_t	ret;
    port_t		dst_port;


//  THIS CALL will block MACH name server for 10 seconds and stop all  
local inter message communication
// if the remote host is DOWN.


    ret = netname_look_up (name_server_port, 
			   	remote_host_name, 
			   	remote_process_name, 
			   	&dst_port);

    if (ret EQ KERN_SUCCESS) {
	 return (TRUE);
    }
    else {
	return (FALSE);
    }


} 









--
Marcel Sutanto, 		marcel@ali.bc.ca
A.L.I. Technologies Ltd.,	(NeXT Mail accepted here)
95-10551 Shellbridge Way, Richmond, BC, 
Canada V6X 2W9
Phone: (604) 279-5422  ext 316
Fax:   (604) 279-5468
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From: michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 27 Mar 1997 02:41:34 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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On 03/26/97, Richard Cave wrote:
]While we're on the subject of polymorphism, can I get someone to post an
]example of polymorphism using ObjectiveC.  All the examples I've seen so
]far demonstrate dynamic messaging, not polymorphism. 

 What's the difference ?


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From: Chris Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling problem
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:34:47 -0500
Organization: ObjectWorks Inc.
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Luke HOWARD wrote:

  :  Unless I can figure out how to compile gcc-2.7.2.x on
  OpenStep/NeXTSTEP,
  : I'll have to wait for OpenStep 4.2 (which has basically been
  re-scoped to
  : become Rhapsody DR1).  That will have an updated gcc in it
  (according to the

  Are you sure about this?

  I thought 4.2 was frozen, and Rhapsody DR1 was going to be for the
  PowerMac only. But I'm just guessing.

  -- luke

 We are running a "refresh version" (not called pr2 but a version beyond
pr1) of 4.2 for NT  that was going to fix many of the problems (not
recognizing _debug.dlls, bundle loading, even perhaps precompiled
headers and debugging those constantly relocating dlls in an OpenStep NT
app without forcing the load address in your makefiles.  However, other
than some added stability most of the problems still seem to be present
in our new version, especially the huge memory footprint of running an
app in gdb a couple of times.  At least once a day a warning indicating
that the 125M virtual memory setting has been reached.

4.2 FCSship date is supposedly 25 April for NT and a month later for
Mach.

Chris Johnson

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From: jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff)
Subject: Re: forwarding and  "super"
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: nexus
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Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:42:19 GMT
Lines: 25

In article <5hbnsa$925$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> marcel@sysyem.de writes:

> > > In general, messages to super start searching in the parent class for
> > > the method you are calling - _but_, the receiver will still be self.
> > > It just modifies where the method search starts.  Take the following
> > > three lines:
> > > 
> > >     [super doSomething];
> > >     [super performSelector:@selector( doSomething)];
> > >     [self doSomething];
> > > 
> > > The middle line is actually the same as the third line (assuming that
> > > the current class doesn't override -performSelector: to do something
> > > weirder than normal).  
> > 
> > But this implies that self doesn't implement the method doSomething.
> > You can  get a different behavior if super AND self implement the
> > method. Right?
> 
> Wrong, assuming you're talking about the second and third line.

Yes, you are right :-), the second and third line are the same.... my  
mistake... sorry...

	Juergen
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Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 12:51:19 -0600
From: rberber@spin.com.mx
Subject: Re: Perl
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <858710783.12760@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: rberber@spin.com.mx
Organization: Deja News USENET Posting Service
To: cavery@dc.net
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Christopher Avery wrote:
>
> I downloaded the Perl Package from ftp-next-peak but it wouldn't
> install. Instaed it said not all the programs in the package were
> in the package and I should install from the original floppies. Can
> anyone help with this?
>

If you have version 5.002 from Peak, there was an error in the
installation which I reported to TipTop (the guys that made the package)
back in january.

I had to change the file Perl.pre_install (inside the package), on line
67 it said:

	compress -c > /tmp/##${packageName}##.tar.Z

the installation doesn't work until you change that line into:

	compress -c > ${packagePath}/${packageName}.tar.Z

Regards,
---
Rene Berber
rberber@spin.com.mx
MIME / NeXT Mail welcomed

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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From: "Jim Powers" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: 28 Mar 1997 03:47:16 GMT
Organization: None
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>Same bad experience for me.
>I run OpenStep 4.1/Mach on a P100/64MB and OpenStep 4.1/NT on a P200/64MB.
>It is nice working with NeXTSTEP (i don't like the name OpenStep/Mach),
but NT is REALLY slow, crashs 2 times daily, no >good apps, ...

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say there are NO good apps for NT.  Also,
there is probably something wrong with your setup, we have had nearly 50
machines running NT (3.5, 3.51, and 4.0 most recently) for years, we get
about 1 crash about every 10 to 12 months.  This usually happens after
trying to config new hardware.

Yes, NT is far, far too slow for what it does, very annoying.

As you can see, I am an NT user and developer, however, I am very NeXT
sympathetic, and want desperatly to get a copy of NeXTSTEP (I too hate this
OPENSTEP BS), but can't afford it.  Ah well, I can always dream....


Jim Powers



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From: "Tony \"Chow\" Chow" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Create NeXTSTEP Interface on Windows with Delphi!
Date: 28 Mar 1997 06:15:34 GMT
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
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Yes, that's what I'm working on--a set of Delphi custom controls that pays
tribute to and faithfully mimic the NeXTSTEP interface.  If anyone's
interested you can download a showcase application that use
these controls at:

http:/home1.gte.net/everblue/demo.zip

This is a complete application so those who don't program
in Delphi are also welcomed to check it out.  In this showcase you'll find:

NeXTSTEP-style...

-Sliders; both standard and gradient
-GroupBox; that centers the caption!
-Checkboxes
-Popuplists
-DropDownLists
-Plus a half-baked, preliminary NeXTSTEP-like window in which all of these
controls reside.

And more is being planned while these undergo priming.  Mail me with any
questions.

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From: michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael)
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 28 Mar 1997 05:34:57 GMT
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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On 03/26/97, Michael Gentry wrote:
]On 03/25/97, Michael Kagalenko wrote:
]> What those guys were thinking when they implemented ftp client
]> in OmniWeb ? It always opens downloaded binaries in text editor
]> (and I couldn't figure out the way to disable this behaviour)
]> Mighty braindamaged way to do things.
]
]OmniWeb is working just fine.  It is brain damaged about some things 
](for example, memory usage), but not about that.
]
]Assumption: The binaries you are downloading are .tar or .tar.gz types 
]of file.
]
]Download and install Opener.app from the archives and you won't have 
]that problem anymore.  The problem is that Workspace (not OmniWeb) 
]doesn't know what to do with your binaries and the default application 
]for any file which Workspace doesn't understand is Edit.  Once you 
]install Opener and Workspace recognizes it's supported file types, the 
]files will automatically be unarchived and opened in the file system 
]for you.
]
]Opener is a really cool app.

 I disagree. The default behaviour for ftp client should be saving
 file, and doing nothing else. Doing otherwise is security risk.
 This behaviour should be controlled from preferences. 

 As for memory,  "leaks" shows that OmniWeb has a lot of
 memory leaks. Does the memory get cleaned after leaking
 application quits ? Could swapping confuse "leaks" ?

  BTW, "leaks" claims that some of NeXT programs have
 memory leaks, like Preferences.




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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP 4.0 PR1 CD-ROM
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 05:09:00 GMT
Organization: Netcom
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On 26 Mar 1997 21:58:51 GMT, tfrey@.next.com (Tony Frey) wrote:

>	There's no difference in the UI between 4.0 and 4.1
>

Nope. 4.0PR1 was a much different GUI. By FCS, it had reverted
to something recognizably NEXTish. But PR1 was quite different. 


Cheers,

Andy


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From: Sangwon Chung 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Why do my function("perform") forget return self
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 19:53:55 +0900
Organization: NEXON
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Hi.
I programmed a game server under solaris 2.5 (pentium) with
GCC 2.7.2.1 
I found some problem in my program.
I programmed under Multi thread. and my timer thread
cannot return self rarely. just one time a day.
I found that 'perform'(objective-c built in) cannot return.
Can I use nested perform under Multi thread safely?

Thanks in advance
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From: hans@icgned.nl
Subject: Re: Rejoice! BSD 4.4 is coming
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jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:

>Well, I just heard it from the fourth source inside NeXT's engineering
>groups, and what I'm hearing is that the BSD code in Rhapsody is
>*finally* getting upgraded to BSD 4.4!

That's good news.

>This means we get: append-only files and filesystems, the LFS, 64-bit
>filesystems (i.e, no more 2 gig partition limit!)

In NeXTstep 4.x, the partition limit is 4 gig.

-- HansM
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From: Constantin Szallies 
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 28 Mar 1997 13:12:24 GMT
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michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu (Michael) wrote:
>On 03/26/97, Michael Gentry wrote:
>]On 03/25/97, Michael Kagalenko wrote:
>]> What those guys were thinking when they implemented ftp client
>]> in OmniWeb ? It always opens downloaded binaries in text editor
>]> (and I couldn't figure out the way to disable this behaviour)
>]> Mighty braindamaged way to do things.

[snip]

> As for memory,  "leaks" shows that OmniWeb has a lot of
> memory leaks. Does the memory get cleaned after leaking
> application quits ? Could swapping confuse "leaks" ?
>
>  BTW, "leaks" claims that some of NeXT programs have
> memory leaks, like Preferences.

A question I always wanted to ask:
Where to get this "leak". I always use MallocDebug.app.

-- 
O---------------------------------------O
|  Constantin Szallies, Energotec GmbH  | \
|         szallies@energotec.de         |  O
|             49211-9144018             |  |
O---------------------------------------O  |
 \                                       \ |
  O----------------------------------------O
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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rejoice! BSD 4.4 is coming
Date: 28 Mar 1997 16:28:28 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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hans@icgned.nl wrote:
> In NeXTstep 4.x, the partition limit is 4 gig.

Huh?!?  Since when?  Can anyone confirm this?
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc.            ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer     mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming...   http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School         You're dangerous because you're honest
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From: "Jeffrey S. Dutky" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:50:49 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland Student Body
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Stephen Peters wrote:
> 
> kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) writes:
> 
> > On 03/22/97, Loren Petrich wrote:
> > >That raises certain questions of uniqueness, since several
> > >different text strings can map onto the same hash value.
> >
> > All Objective C methods with the same name share the same method
> > selector, so this isn't a problem.
> 
> Um, the problem Loren is raising is one in which two different
> methods, with two different names, could share the hash.  In other
> words, when performing the lookup, there could be a collision in which
> it's looking for one method, but because another method has the same
> hash, it gets a completely different one.
> 
> Is this a problem in theory?  Yes -- even if the hash algorithm is
> perfect, there are only 65,536 possible method names (I'm using the
> GNU ObjC runtime as a reference, which uses integers as the hash
> codes).  Get an object with enough methods, and you can guarantee a
> collision. :-)
> 
> Has this become a problem in reality?  I don't know.  Anyone care to
> say if they've had any weird errors that only went away when they
> renamed their method?

This should NEVER be a problem, even when two method names produce
the same hash code. Under normal implementations of hash tables the
hash entries either point to a list of name:value pairs or values
are stored in successive entires when a hash code crashes.

In the first case (and array or lists of name:value structs) when
a lookup lands on an entry with more than one value assigned to it
the lookup proceeds to search the associated list linearly comparing
the original name to the names in the pair structs. Since crashes
should happen infrequently no list should be very long and the
linear search will not be much of a performance hit.

In the second case either a crash flag must be set in the hash table
entry or the lookup routine must ALWAYS check the original name with
the entry's name. If comparison fails the lookup routine steps through
the hash table comparing the original name with the names in the table
entries until it finds a match.

The second method has the advantage of a simpler data structure than
the first but will break when the number of names exceeds the number
of hash table entries. The first method is more complex but also more
general.

In either case, however, we will return the correct value for any
given name lookup, even with the hash code for the name crashes
with the hash code of another name in the table.

- Jeff Dutky
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: forwarding and  "super"
Date: 26 Mar 1997 11:23:04 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff) writes:

> In article  shess@one.net (Scott Hess)  
> writes:
> 
> > In general, messages to super start searching in the parent class
> > for the method you are calling - _but_, the receiver will still be
> > self.  It just modifies where the method search starts.  Take the
> > following three lines:
> > 
> >     [super doSomething];
> >     [super performSelector:@selector( doSomething)];
> >     [self doSomething];
> > 
> > The middle line is actually the same as the third line (assuming
> > that the current class doesn't override -performSelector: to do
> > something weirder than normal).
> 
> But this implies that self doesn't implement the method
> doSomething. You can get a different behavior if super AND self
> implement the method. Right?

No.  Think of it this way.  Using super says "don't use this class's
code for this method, but instead run the superclass's method on
self."  [super performSelector: ... ] will run the superclass _code_
for performSelector, but it passes the selector to "self" as normal.
So, if the current class overrides doSomething, using the second line
up there will use the overriding method.

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: Michael.Gentry@m-c-i.com (Michael Gentry)
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 26 Mar 1997 20:04:20 GMT
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On 03/25/97, Michael Kagalenko wrote:
> What those guys were thinking when they implemented ftp client
> in OmniWeb ? It always opens downloaded binaries in text editor
> (and I couldn't figure out the way to disable this behaviour)
> Mighty braindamaged way to do things.

OmniWeb is working just fine.  It is brain damaged about some things 
(for example, memory usage), but not about that.

Assumption: The binaries you are downloading are .tar or .tar.gz types 
of file.

Download and install Opener.app from the archives and you won't have 
that problem anymore.  The problem is that Workspace (not OmniWeb) 
doesn't know what to do with your binaries and the default application 
for any file which Workspace doesn't understand is Edit.  Once you 
install Opener and Workspace recognizes it's supported file types, the 
files will automatically be unarchived and opened in the file system 
for you.

Opener is a really cool app.

- mrg

-- 
Veruca Salt wails!

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 28 Mar 1997 13:22:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
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>Well, if NeXT ever finishes the link+go or whatever is was that they
>were calling it (which was supposed to be in 3.3 and then got pushed
>to 4.0 and then got pushed to ???) you'd have the ability to swap
>newly compiled code in and out while the app was running.  You can
>already do this with the Asymetrix Supercede Java IDE, by the way.
>Of course, in both situations, you are doing it via the development
>environment; in NeXT's case I think there were actually APIs so
>that you'd be able to do this in other situations--the dynamic
>linker's header files hint at this...and you really want that API.
>Smalltalk and Lisp will probably always be easier to modify in this
>way, however.

Jeeze. You can do this with SOM right now. Even the CFM offers a way to do
this if you really want to be daring.

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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Help: NextStep -> Openstep
Date: 28 Mar 1997 23:28:13 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
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In <5h8nkn$o1o$2@elna.ethz.ch> it appeared that mateev@ifor.math.ethz.ch 
wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> We just got Openstep for WindowsNT in our institute and I'd like to convert 
> some Next code into Openstep. So far I know there exist tool for that, but 
I 
> cannot find them. 
> Can anybody help me ?

On OPENSTEP 4.1 for MachOS, they are in 
myhost:/NextDeveloper/OpenStepConversion/foo

Where "foo" is a set of directories with different related stuff.

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: steffi@dgs.dgsys.com (Robert Nicholson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP 4.0 PR1 CD-ROM
Date: 27 Mar 1997 18:56:26 -0500
Organization: Digital Gateway Systems
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Brian, mentioned Pre Release! He's looking for the different "blue"
workspace.


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From: Eric_Noyau@next.com (Eric Noyau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: AppKit and Undo
Date: 29 Mar 1997 03:18:33 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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In article  jimg@abacus.com (Jim  
Gagnon) writes:
> 
>   I have to admit that I have no familiarity with EOF [...].  I'm
> proposing a scheme where NSObject handles all the stuff necessary for an
> undo/redo.  As a bonus, my scheme provides for transactions and nested
> transactions, full object persistence and a complete object dependency
> net. [...]
>   Thus, if an application writer wished to add undo to their app, they
> need only use my categorized NSObject, declare a document that objects
> belong to, and insert a simple method call (ie. [myObject change])
> whenever an object's state changes.  That's it!
>
Sounds a lot like EOF control layer to me... Except that we use  
-willChange to add some more lazyness to the snapshots. Of course, EOF is  
doing a lot more than that, but you should check it out: it's usefull in a  
lot of contexts, not only for undos.

-- Eric
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From: "Dale Madill" 
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Good News for Corps: Drive Down Rates as Desired w This Y2K Solution
Date: 27 Mar 1997 13:14:02 GMT
Organization: ITeam Computer Services
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Dash Langan  wrote in article
<199703211605.RAA19840@basement.replay.com>...
> With the "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K solution, employers
> of programmers can actually *layoff* programmers, not need more!

Dash,
   Stop trying to beat the horse... its dead Jim. I'm a Doctor not a "Open
and Shut Window Technique" programmer they died out during the massive
business failures around the year 2000 I think.... Just before Dash Langan
was sued into the ground by Corporate America.


How much of a markup do you make on your programmers from India Dash?

Dale Madill
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 27 Mar 1997 19:00:10 GMT
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On 03/17/97, James M. Curran wrote:
>
>	But, I'm not breaking encapsulation!!  All I'm doing in my code 
is
>writing "x = y;"  (english translation - "copy object y into object x
>-- all implementation details left up to class designer")  And if the
>class designer were to change the implementation (eg, made the essense
>of the object contained in two variables, realval1 & realval2 for
>instance, instead of one), my code would not change.  (The assembler
>code output by the compiler would to:
>	x.realval1 = y.realval2;
>	x.realval2 = y.realval2;
>but that's not my concern -- all thoses details are encapsulated
>inside the class definition.

Semantically you are right.  In real life your code is not at all 
isolated from changes to the class.  If the class changes, you 
recompile.  So if someone finds a nasty bug in their class, it's 
now hardcoded into your software, and shipping a new library won't fix 
it.

>	I think part of what you're missing, is you don't fully 
understand
>C++'s operator overloading.  In C++, I can define what = means for a
>object.  Hence, as the designer of a class, I can specify exactly what
>members need to be copied and how they should be copied.  But, as a
>user of a class, all I need to know is that saying "x = y;" handles it
>all. THAT'S the true essense of OOP, and ObjC can only approximate
>that....

Bullshit.  You are equating syntactic sugar with OO functianality.

>	No, you can't inline method for object that mutate at run time. 
>As I demonstrated elsewhere:
>	class B { virtual void print() {cout << "B::print(); << endl;} 
};
>	class D: public B 
>		{ virtual void print() {cout << "D::print(); << endl;} 
};
>
>	func(B *pB)
>	{	B     b;
>		D     d;
>		b.print(); // known B, inlined
>		d.print(); // known D, inlined
>		pB->print(); // could be B or D
>			     // uses virtual call.
>	}

Yep, and if B ever changes...

>>> That is what is possible with early binding, and what you have to 
give up
>>> if you insist that it's not real OOP unless it's late-bound.
>
>>That's exactly right.  You're not really doing OOP if you break
>>encapsulation, now are you?
>
>	But I'm not the one advacating breaking encapsolation!

No, but in a sense the compiler is.    Or from another perspective, 
the class designer is.   Either way your code is not isolated from
changes in the definition of the class.

>>James, you try to keep comparing compile-time binding under C++ to
>>dynamic binding under Obj-C, and it's simply not a reasonable
>>comparision because you can do compile-time binding under Obj-C and 
get
>>the same exact code as you would from C++.
>
>	Yes, but I did it WITHOUT breaking encapsulation.

See above.  In both cases you ARE depending on implementation details
of the class involved, whether you like it or not.  The only thing C++
buys you is that fixing your code may just be a recompile.  That is
not always practical, however. 

>	HA! One would think that such a cheap (and unaccurate) shot 
would be
>beneath you.  OK, Given the class:
>	class Point
>	{	int	x;
>		int	y;
>	public:
>		Point(int X, int Y) { x= X; y=Y;};
>		operator=(Point rhs) {x=rhs.x; y=rhs.y;}
>		virtual print() {cout << "(" << x << "," << y << ")" }
>	};
>
>	[comparable ObjC class omitted]
>
>	Now let's see what you can do with it.
>Creation on automatic object (on stack):
>C++:	Point Pt(10,20);
>ObjC:	Can't be done.
>(advantage C++)

Sure it can be done.  Don't make something as rediculously simple as a 
Point into a class, especially if there aren't going to be any virtual
member functions in it.   Objective C programmers tend not to try to 
turn every concept into a class.   

>Creation in Free store:
>C++	Point	*pPt = new Point(10,20);
>ObjC:	Point	*Pt = [[Point alloc] init:10,20];
>(I kinda prefer the C++ syntax, but that's a matter of taste; we'll
>call it a draw)
>
>Shallow copy:
>C++:	pPt1 = pPt2;
>ObjC:	Pt1 = Pt2;
>(draw)

That's a pointer assignment, it's not making a copy of either object.

>Deep Copy:
>C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;
>ObJC:	Pt1 = [[Point alloc] init:Pt2];
>(Again I prefer the C++ syntax, but, this time I think it's clear
>enough to say advantage C++)

Try:    Pt1 = [Pt2 copy];

At least in the objective c case you know from looking at the code
what is going on.  In C++ you have to go and track down the 
declarations of the variables involved to figure out what's going on.

>effecient deep copy:
>C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;	// inlining handled by compiler
>			// encapsolation maintained

Only if the assignment operator isn't virtual.

>ObjC:	Pt1->x = Pt2->x; // inlining handled by programmer
>	Pt1->y = Pt2->y; // encapsolation violated.

That may be 'efficient' for some cases, but I seriously doubt you'll
ever find many Objective C programmers that write code like that.

>(advantage C++)
>
>polymorphic method call:
>C++:	pPt->print();
>ObjC:	[Pt print];
>(draw)
>
>effecient polymorphic call:
>C++:	pPt->print();
>ObjC:	func	f;
>	f = sel_getMethod(Point, @selector(print));
>	f();
>(OK, I made that ObjC syntax up, since I don't know the actual syntax,
>but I'm pretty sure it's close, and unless the real one is actually
>very different, I'd say we'd have to call this advantage C++)

And once again you are totally hung up on the assumed poor performance
of Objective C method dispatching, without taking a serious look at
the benefits it has.

>very effecient method call when run-time polymorphism isn't needed
>(ie, object actual type is known)
>C++:	Pt.print();
>Obj:	can't be done.

In cases where run-time polymorphism aren't needed, I don't use a 
class.  I see almost no reason to do so in cases where the 'objects'
involved are so simple as to not require OO features, other than
for syntactical reasons.  I've seen what happens when C++ programmers
go apeshit and make EVERYHING a class right down to 'Points'.  They
wind up with massively complex code with poor performance.

>	In other words, the C++ code is always graceful,
> pretty, encapsolated, and easier to maintain.

If you like C's syntax and don't mind that you have to recompile
when the class designer sneezes, then maybe that's true. ;)  I happen
to LIKE the fact that the syntax for dealing with objects in Objective
C is DIFFERENT than the syntax for dealing with structures -- because
they work differently.  Consider the following line of C++ code:

	x = y->foo(z);

From reading just that code, you can not tell if y is a struct or a 
class, whether foo is virtual or not, or whether z could be modififed.  

In the Objective C case:

	x = [y foo:z];

I know that y is an object, that foo is 'virtual', and that z is passed
by value.  Granted, in both cases if z is a pointer of any kind, it's
possible that whatever z points to could be modified, but z itself 
won't be.  

Both of those examples are extremely simplistic, but if the simple 
stuff isn't easy and unambiguous, then what happens when things really
get complicated?   Go read the C++ ARM sometime and read all of the 
entire _SECTIONS_ on ambiguity, and the myriad of rules C++ requires
to deal with it.  I would much rather deal with a language that doesn't
require me to grab the reference manual -- ever.

-Ken
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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: soc.penpals,alt.msdos.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.questions,atl.resumes
Subject: Re: Learning to Program to get hired?
Date: 29 Mar 1997 23:24:35 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <5hk8bj$cjk$1@news.platinum.com>
References: <332DA1F1.41A4@hom.net> <5h7eed$ntq$1@news.platinum.com> 
	<5h7fjt$52j@chaos.dac.neu.edu> <5h763i$3k5@sps1.phys.vt.edu> 
	<5ha8sa$r0f@lynx.dac.neu.edu> <5hbvg4$6j4$1@news.internetmci.com> 
	<5hfla1$n9m@chaos.dac.neu.edu>
Reply-To: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
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In <5hfla1$n9m@chaos.dac.neu.edu> it appeared that Michael wrote:
>  As for memory,  "leaks" shows that OmniWeb has a lot of
>  memory leaks. Does the memory get cleaned after leaking
>  application quits ? Could swapping confuse "leaks" ?

I dunno "leaks" but it might be confused by shared libraries, more likely 
than swapping.  However, under normal conditions applications which "leak" 
memory are forced by the OS to free that memory when the application is 
killed.  I've never observed NeXTSTEP (or OPENSTEP) fail to free memory when 
an application exists or is killed.

I have observed occasions on Solaris where shared memory buffers seem not to 
be freed when a bogus (hung or whatever) shared-memory application is killed, 
rather than terminating normally.  Presumably there must be the need for a 
signal hander to cover this event for certain uses of shared memory.  
Presumably this is also a potential issue with other UNIX flavors which have 
shared memory.  The shared memory pool can be freed with a reboot in this 
case.  Keep in mind that this type of shared memory is implemented by the 
user program at a lower level, and does not speak to the behavior of shared 
libraries on Solaris, which do not exhibit such lame behavior.

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: jabi@acsu.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep declining
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 20:40:57 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <333DC4A9.53AD@arch.buffalo.edu>
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Jim Powers wrote:
> 
> >Same bad experience for me.
> >I run OpenStep 4.1/Mach on a P100/64MB and OpenStep 4.1/NT on a P200/64MB.
> >It is nice working with NeXTSTEP (i don't like the name OpenStep/Mach),
> but NT is REALLY slow, crashs 2 times daily, no >good apps, ...
> 
> Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say there are NO good apps for NT.  Also,
> there is probably something wrong with your setup, we have had nearly 50
> machines running NT (3.5, 3.51, and 4.0 most recently) for years, we get
> about 1 crash about every 10 to 12 months.  This usually happens after
> trying to config new hardware.
> 
> Yes, NT is far, far too slow for what it does, very annoying.
> 
> As you can see, I am an NT user and developer, however, I am very NeXT
> sympathetic, and want desperatly to get a copy of NeXTSTEP (I too hate this
> OPENSTEP BS), but can't afford it.  Ah well, I can always dream....
> 
> Jim Powers

I have a dual booted Pentium Pro 200MHz with OPENSTEP/Mach
and Windows NT 4.0 with OPENSTEP Enterprise. I am
dying to have more applications so that I can run
it exclusively in OPENSTEP/Mach mode, but now
I can't do without Netscape, Java, Word, Excel
PhotoShop, PageMaker, Illustrator.

But I love ProjectBuilder, Interface Builder,
Preview (that one alone is worth the money)
and Create.app... Did you know you can create
a complicated EPS in Create.app and just drag
and drop it into PageMaker.. way cool :-)

Check out my environment setup at:
http://aquarius.arch.buffalo.edu/openstep.html

-- 

w a s s i m   j a b i  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Dept. of Architecture    http://libra.arch.buffalo.edu/www/
University at Buffalo   EMail:       wjabi@arch.buffalo.edu
3435 Main St. - Hayes     Tel:            +1 (716) 829-3483
Buffalo, NY 14214 USA     Fax:            +1 (716) 829-3256
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From: "Jim Powers" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OPENSTEP Support SMP???
Date: 30 Mar 1997 03:08:48 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 4
Message-ID: <01bc3cb7$52845fe0$297e0e26@godsearth>
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

Does OPENSTEP Intel (NeXTSTEP) support symmetric multiprocessing?  If so
waht chipsets are supported?

Jim Powers
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <3027859093225@digifix.com>
Date: 30 Mar 1997 05:00:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 344
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

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From: marcelor@acs.bu.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Date: 30 Mar 1997 05:50:33 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Lines: 34
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5hkuv9$3ls@news.bu.edu>
References: 
Reply-To: marcelor@acs.bu.edu  (Marcelo Rodrigues)
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-76-3.bu.edu
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In , jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck) writes:
>Hi, 
>   I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY 
>calculator(hardware). (the conversion features in the CASIOs 
>are nice but are really cumbersome to use, and those nifty
>software version just dont quite cut it). If anyone outta there
>knows some company who sells such a thing, would you please
>email me? Thanks much in advance.
>
>-Jake 

Hello,

  I've got just the thing for you. Actually it is much
more than you asked for but I highly recommend it.
First, the HP-16 which was a really great calculator has
already been mentioned. Unfortunately they are discontinued
and very hard to find in the used calculator market. Now,
my suggestion is that you get an HP-48GX which
handles number systems really nicely. What is
really nice is that on top of this, you can get an HP-16
Emulator for it which is a *superb* piece of software in
its own right.  The emulator is not free, I think it is about $30
from the author ( Jake Schwartz,  write me if you
need his email address which I don't have handy) and is
well worth the money in my opinion.  You may be able to
save money by buying a used HP-48SX which is the older
version of the GX. This would be better for any one using the
emulator because the emulator comes with a plastic overlay
that works only with the lay-out of the SX keyboard. With
the emulator you can do just about anything to do with
computer arithmetic, period.

Marcelo
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:49:07 GMT
Organization: InterServ News Service
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Message-ID: <5hl98v$2nm@lal.interserv.com>
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In <>, 
Charles William Swiger  wrote:
>That implementation of assignment does not actually perform even a
>shallow copy of the object (ie, pointer manipulation maybe plus
>referencing counting).  Anyone expecting '=' to perform a copy of the
>complete state of an object is not going to get the behavior they expect.

	Aha!  Now I finally understand the locus of your confusion about my
example.  When I said that "realval" is the only relevant (typo-free
this time) member of the class, I meant exactly that. It _is_ _the_
_only_ relevant member.  Not "the only member relevant to this
application", but "the ONLY relevant member".  Got that?

	Hence the assignment operator I gave for it is defined by the original
class designer and is the only one used by the class.  The
applications programmer needs not ever know any of the implementation
details to use it.

>James, we were considering the inner comparision test for a
>general-purpose sort of an array or list of objects based on a key
>value.  If you know at compile time that you've only got objects of that
>type where you can overload '=' to just copy one ivar, okay-- but you're
>trading a performance gain by reducing the flexibility and generality of
>the sort.

>For example, what happens when you don't have the same type of object in
>the array?  What happens when you've got subclasses of that object, or
>even completely different classes which share an interface in terms of
>method names but do not have the same ivars in the exact same place in
>the structure underlying the objects?

	Here is where templates come in.  All I need is a generic sort()
function template.  Then, depending on what are the data types of it's
parameters, the compiler will build a sort function customized to that
data type.  So, if I sort arrays of objects of two different classes,
the compiler will create two different sort functions, each optimized
to the needs of it's particular class.

>(We're back to comparing virtual C++ dispatches to Obj-C's method
>invocations, again.....)

	No we're not.  Everything I've described can be completely inline by
the compiler.

>Oh, I understand ad-hoc polymorphism (aka operator overloading) fine-- I
>just dislike it strongly.

	I have absolutely no idea what "ad-hoc polymorphism" has to do with
operator overloading.

>Instead of encouraging people to develop flexible code that's dynamicly
>bound and can truly interact with any other object which shares a common
>interface, the use of operator overloading in the way you've
>demonstrated involves objects which are staticly bound, must share
>knowledge of each other's implementation, and the resulting code is much
>more difficult to maintain since someone else working on your code has
>to verify the implementation details of all of the overloaded operators
>to ensure that they actually do what you expect them to.

	And again I must repeat that you obviously do not understand what I'm
saying, should using operator overloading in the way I've demostrated
allow objects to interact with a common interface, requires no
knowledge of each others implementations,  has only one method per
operator , and makes code much easier to maintain.


>And that hampers code reusability.

>> But, as a user of a class, all I need to know is that saying "x = y;"
>> handles it all.

>But Joe class user cannot know that "x = y;" handles it the way he expects 
>'=' to behave without actually verifying the implemention of '='.

	Of course he can, since he knows it makes x the functional equilavent
of y.  What more does he need to know?

>> THAT'S the true essense of OOP, and ObjC can only approximate that....

>It's rather odd that the supposed "true essence of OOP" involves static
>binding, knowledge of implementation rather than interface, and results
>in code that does not work correctly with subclasses of the original
>class without the programmer having to worry about whether the original
>classes' reimplements operators in unexpected ways.
	It is the true essence off OOP, because the method I described does
NOT require knowledge of implementation, only interface; and results
in code that works not only from subclasses, but also for completely
unreleated classes.

>Now then, what happens when you write a subclass which depends on some
>other state being copied than just the one ivar?  Your subclasses break
>if you simply try to pass them into the sort routine unless you change
>the superclass implementation of '=' and recompile the class.   That is
>one of the classic example of C++'s weak superclass problem, correct?

	Template solve the problem completely.  Even without them, you can
have an inlined virtual function, which is compiler would inline when
it knows it's safe, and call indirectly when the exact type of the
variable is in question.

>And what happens if this occurs with some class that's in a library that
>you don't have source for?  How do you alter the superclasses'
>implementation of '=' then?  The dynamic runtime of Obj-C lets you
>replace method implementations even for classes that you don't have the
>source for.
	Hold it! -- Didn't you just, a few paragraphs ago, say that was a BAD
thing?  The quote was : " the resulting code is much more difficult to
maintain since someone else working on your code has to verify the
implementation details of all of the overloaded operators to ensure
that they actually do what you expect them to."

	Now you are advocating changing the implementation of methods of
classes you don't even have the source for.  Can you say "Maintence
nightmare"?

>By the way, what does C++ have in terms of integrated reference counting?

	Define "integrated".  C++ keeps C minimalistic approach, and lets you
build whatever you need.  Defining a RefCount base class, and
inheriting for that is a trivial matter.

       Truth,
       James

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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 08:49:14 GMT
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In <<5hb805$fo6@news.ml.com>>, 
necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:

>  Additionally, it is a 
>real world example because when you subclass things in C++ where you don't 
>have the source, you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in things done in 
>the constructor.

	But in ObjC, "you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in things
done in the constructor" either because YOU DON'T HAVE A CONSTRUCTOR!

	In ObjC, after an object is created (using alloc), you can
polymorphically initialize it (using init).

	In C++, after an object is created (using the ctor), you can
polymorphically initialize it (using a member function which you can
can init() if you like).


       Truth,
       James

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:55:58 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 30-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
>> That implementation of assignment does not actually perform even a
>> shallow copy of the object (ie, pointer manipulation maybe plus
>> referencing counting).  Anyone expecting '=' to perform a copy of the
>> complete state of an object is not going to get the behavior they expect.
>  
>         Aha!  Now I finally understand the locus of your confusion about my
> example.  When I said that "realval" is the only relevant (typo-free
> this time) member of the class, I meant exactly that. It _is_ _the_
> _only_ relevant member.  Not "the only member relevant to this
> application", but "the ONLY relevant member".  Got that?

I understand what you're saying, yes.  The problem is, I do not agree
with it.  Why should I have to study the detailed implementation of '='
for a specific class to realize what ivars the class designer considered
important and which ivars weren't considered important?

There is no reason at all that I would know or assume that '=' doesn't
copy the whole state of the object unless I checked the implementation
details.  I shouldn't have to worry about this type of problem.

>  Hence the assignment operator I gave for it is defined by the original
> class designer and is the only one used by the class.  The
> applications programmer needs not ever know any of the implementation
> details to use it.

Wrong.  What happens if I put interesting information into the other
ivars that aren't copied by the class designer's implementation of '='? 
It's not going to be copied, and I'm not going to get the results I'd
expected when calling the sort.

[ ... ]
> >For example, what happens when you don't have the same type of object in
> >the array?  What happens when you've got subclasses of that object, or
> >even completely different classes which share an interface in terms of
> >method names but do not have the same ivars in the exact same place in
> >the structure underlying the objects?
>  
>         Here is where templates come in.  All I need is a generic sort()
> function template.  Then, depending on what are the data types of it's
> parameters, the compiler will build a sort function customized to that
> data type.

What happens when you cannot determine the data types of the parameters
at compile time?

[ ... ]
>> Oh, I understand ad-hoc polymorphism (aka operator overloading) fine-- I
>> just dislike it strongly.
>  
>         I have absolutely no idea what "ad-hoc polymorphism" has to do with
> operator overloading.

That's easy-- they are two different names for the same concept.
Feel free to look it up in a textbook on computer languages....

>> Instead of encouraging people to develop flexible code that's dynamicly
>> bound and can truly interact with any other object which shares a common
>> interface, the use of operator overloading in the way you've
>> demonstrated involves objects which are staticly bound, must share
>> knowledge of each other's implementation, and the resulting code is much
>> more difficult to maintain since someone else working on your code has
>> to verify the implementation details of all of the overloaded operators
>> to ensure that they actually do what you expect them to.
>  
>         And again I must repeat that you obviously do not understand what I'm
> saying, should using operator overloading in the way I've demostrated
> allow objects to interact with a common interface, requires no
> knowledge of each others implementations,  has only one method per
> operator , and makes code much easier to maintain.

No, it doesn't. The precise example you've provided relies explicitly on
the class designer making assumptions about what parts of a class (which
ivars) matter and hence will be copied.

The user of the class has to be aware (or beware) that this class
implements '=' in a way that does not mean "the entire state of this
object is assigned".

>>> But, as a user of a class, all I need to know is that saying "x = y;"
>>> handles it all.
>  
>> But Joe class user cannot know that "x = y;" handles it the way he expects 
>> '=' to behave without actually verifying the implemention of '='.
>  
>         Of course he can, since he knows it makes x the functional equilavent
> of y.  What more does he need to know?

False.  Let's say I put data I wanted to have sorted into one of ivars
that the implementation of '=' doesn't copy.  I'm not going to have my
data sorted with the keys, which was my expectation.

[ ... ]
>> And what happens if this occurs with some class that's in a library that
>> you don't have source for?  How do you alter the superclasses'
>> implementation of '=' then?  The dynamic runtime of Obj-C lets you
>> replace method implementations even for classes that you don't have the
>> source for.
>
>         Hold it! -- Didn't you just, a few paragraphs ago, say that was a BAD
> thing?  The quote was : " the resulting code is much more difficult to
> maintain since someone else working on your code has to verify the
> implementation details of all of the overloaded operators to ensure
> that they actually do what you expect them to."

You generally use this technique to either monitor method invocations,
to add some additional functionality that you wished the method
implementation would have done, or to fix bugs in the classes'
implementation.  Generally, you do your custom behavior and then call
the original implementation.

>         Now you are advocating changing the implementation of methods of
> classes you don't even have the source for.  Can you say "Maintence
> nightmare"?

It's a technique that has appropriate usages; replacing methods for no
good reason would be a "maintenance nightmare".  However, this ability
has some really nifty capabilities when used for precise reasons by
people who know what they're doing.

>> By the way, what does C++ have in terms of integrated reference counting?
>  
>         Define "integrated".  C++ keeps C minimalistic approach, and lets you
> build whatever you need.  Defining a RefCount base class, and
> inheriting for that is a trivial matter.

"integrated" == ships with the standard class libraries and can
reasonably be expected to be available with the same interface
regardless of which platform and C++ compiler you have.

Reference counting is part of the OpenStep spec, and every OpenStep app
is free to use reference counting on their objects with garbage
collection instead of having to explicitly worry about disposing of the
memory used by objects no longer in use.

-Chuck



         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: ltinguely@pobox.com (Lionel Tinguely)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WHERE to find AppKit DOC ??
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 14:54:21 GMT
Organization: WorldCom
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Hi There!


Who knows where I could fine a downloadable version of FoundationKit
and  AppKit documentation ?  I could only fine a "online viewable"
version at next.com

Thanks

LiONEL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
name  : Lionel Tinguely (MiMe & NeXT mail ok)
e-mail: ltinguely@pobox.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be 
regarded as a criminal offence
					E.W. Dijkstra

Teaching C++ should be sentenced to life imprisonment

 					Me 

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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 30 Mar 1997 23:12:34 GMT
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On 03/29/97, James M. Curran wrote:
>In <>, 
>Charles William Swiger  wrote:
>
>>For example, what happens when you don't have the same type of object
>>in the array?  What happens when you've got subclasses of that 
>>object, or even completely different classes which share an interface 
>>in terms of method names but do not have the same ivars in the exact 
>>same place in the structure underlying the objects?
>
>	Here is where templates come in.  All I need is a generic 
sort()
>function template.  Then, depending on what are the data types of it's
>parameters, the compiler will build a sort function customized to that
>data type.  So, if I sort arrays of objects of two different classes,
>the compiler will create two different sort functions, each optimized
>to the needs of it's particular class.

That still does not answer what Charles asked, which was: What happens 
when you want to sort an array of objects that all adhere to a common
interface but do not share the same data layout?  In that case, a C++
compiler must use virtual calls because it does not know exactly what
kinds of objects it's dealing with.  And if the person implementing
the base class didn't declare his copy operator virtual, you are 
basically screwed.

>>(We're back to comparing virtual C++ dispatches to Obj-C's method
>>invocations, again.....)
>
>	No we're not.  Everything I've described can be completely 
>inline by the compiler.

Only in cases where you know exactly what kind of objects you are 
dealing with, and this precludes being able to sort an array containing 
more than one kind of object.

>	It is the true essence off OOP, because the method I described 
does
>NOT require knowledge of implementation, only interface; and results
>in code that works not only from subclasses, but also for completely
>unreleated classes.
 
In order for you to get the performance that you keep rambling on 
about, the compiler MUST know the implementation details of the classes 
you are dealing with, regardless of whether YAU do or not.  And once
your code is compiled, it is 100% tied to the implementation of those
classes.  You can scream 'interface' all you want, but the fact remains
that if anything important changes you will have to recompile. And in
some cases you may have to recompile even if you DON'T use any inline
member funtions.  See BeOS for an example of this.

Here's a note on the "true essence of OOP":

	"The basic support a programmer needs to write object-oriented
	programs consists of a class mechanism with inheritance and a
	mechanism that allows calls of member functions to depend on
	the actual type of an object (in cases where the actual type is
	unknown at compile time)."  
		- The C++ Programming Language, 2nd Ed.  B. Stroustrup

Note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not you can 
just say "x = y" in your code, or what kind of performance you're going 
to get from doing so.   Your comment that Objective C can only 
approximate the 'true essence of OOP' is patently wrong.  You are
far too hung up on syntactic sugar and efficiency issues.

And since you like templates so much, I offer this:

	"The need to type check virtual function calls can be
	constraining for library designers.  For example, it could be
	nice to provide a class "stack of anything" for general use.
	C++ doesn't allow this, but the combinations of templates and
	inheritance approach the flexibility, ease of design, and ease
	of use of libraries in languages that rely on dynamic
	(run-time) type checking, such as Smalltalk, where a "stack of
	anything" can be expressed."
		- The C++ Programming Language, 2nd Ed.  B. Stroustrup
	
Even Stroustrup says C++ isn't as flexible or easy to use as the 
Smalltalk (and Objective C) method for creating generic classes.  I 
certainly won't argue with him on that. 

-Ken


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From: email@end.of.post (Raymond Lutz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WO Pro limitation: single woa instance?
Date: 29 Mar 1997 20:01:16 GMT
Organization: SPC
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Salut a tous!

I read in WOF docs[1] that

"With the Enterprise product, you can deploy WebObjects application
servers on multiple hardware servers. You can also run multiple
instances of an application on each server. In contrast, WebObjects
Pro limits your deployment to running a single instance of each
WebObjects application on a single hardware server"

Does that mean that with WO Pro, no more than ONE user at a time
can browse a given web object application ?

Thanks,
Ray

[1] http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/WebObjects/EnterpriseVsPro.html
-- 
Raymond Lutz - lutzray-at-9bit.qc.ca - www.9bit.qc.ca/~lutzray - "Les 400 plus fortunes individus de la planete possedent autant que 2.3 MILLIARDS des plus pauvres reunis"

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From: embuck@yin.mcleod.net (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 30 Mar 1997 21:49:14 GMT
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In  "Lawson English" wrote:
> 
> 
> >Well, if NeXT ever finishes the link+go or whatever is was that they
...

> 
> Jeeze. You can do this with SOM right now. Even the CFM offers a way to do
> this if you really want to be daring.
> 
You can do this now with PDO/DO (with separately compiled code) on nextstep.  
The technology being described above related to just in time 
compiling/linking which is a different issue.  Next wanted to be able to 
recompile just the line you changed in the text editor and immediately run 
with the change thus short circuiting the edit compile link cycle.

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: WO Pro limitation: single woa instance?
Date: 31 Mar 1997 04:51:28 GMT
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On 03/29/97, Raymond Lutz wrote:
>Salut a tous!
>
>I read in WOF docs[1] that
>
>"With the Enterprise product, you can deploy WebObjects application
>servers on multiple hardware servers. You can also run multiple
>instances of an application on each server. In contrast, WebObjects
>Pro limits your deployment to running a single instance of each
>WebObjects application on a single hardware server"
>
>Does that mean that with WO Pro, no more than ONE user at a time
>can browse a given web object application ?
>


	Not exactly no.

	More than one user can access your WOF application at a time, 
but its a sharing system... that is, WOApplication is not 
multithreaded.  One users page is generated, then the next, then the 
next.

	In most cases this isn't a big deal because you don't have to 
do massive calculations.  Once the page that UserA is looking at has 
been generated, UserB's will be generated.  It only becomes a major 
hassle if UserA is doing some lookup or something that takes time.

	IN WOF Enterprise... if you have multiple instances deployed, 
then the load balancing stuff would be used, and there wouldn't be a 
wait.

	


-- 
Scott Anguish               DBS Online - http://www.dbs-online.com/DBS
sanguish@digifix.com        Stepwise OpenStep WWW - http://www.stepwise.com

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an someone help with this question
I have to write a program parent.c that spawns execution of child.c
parent will append file1...filen to a destination-file.
destination-file is a shared resource between parent and child
and is opened for appending in the parent before the spawns
and closed in parent after all files have been appended
the destination-file ,translated to to string format is passed to child
as argv[2] have to use the fileno function in parent and fdopen() in
child but can't find any info on fileno() have tried to man it
but no manuel exists.
Can any help with info on fileno(), am a student in operating systems
Thanks, Bob
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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 31 Mar 1997 05:38:32 GMT
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:

>	But in ObjC, "you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in things
>done in the constructor" either because YOU DON'T HAVE A CONSTRUCTOR!

And the down-side here is?

>	In ObjC, after an object is created (using alloc), you can
>polymorphically initialize it (using init).

But I already do this by convention,

>	In C++, after an object is created (using the ctor), you can
>polymorphically initialize it (using a member function which you can
>can init() if you like).

you don't.

Justice and the American Way,
TN
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 11:41:04 -0600
From: curranj@mskcc.org
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
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In article <5hniko$ao0@news.ml.com>,
  necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:
>
> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
>
> >	But in ObjC, "you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in things
> >done in the constructor" either because YOU DON'T HAVE A CONSTRUCTOR!
>
> And the down-side here is?

  The downside is that you don't have a constructor .  Constructors
are one of C++'s most useful and powerful features.  To suggest that we
are better off without them just because of one failing in a pathological
example is foolish.

>
> >	In ObjC, after an object is created (using alloc), you can
> >polymorphically initialize it (using init).
>
> But I already do this by convention,
>
> >	In C++, after an object is created (using the ctor), you can
> >polymorphically initialize it (using a member function which you can
> >can init() if you like).
>
> you don't.
>

Actually, we do -- the derived class can (and should) have it's own
constructor, and with it's own constructor, the object is correctly
initially -- based on a feature that is actually part of the language, 
not a convention dreamed up by users to get around a language's lack of a
specific feature (as ObjC's alloc/init convention is)

  The code you posted is a bad example for many reasons.  Basically, it
requires the user of the class who wil be creating a subclass of it, to
KNOW that the describe() method will be called from the constructor.  But
that is an implementation detail.  The class users should NOT be required
(or even allowed) to know that.  Hence you are showing that ObjC is a
better OO language, IF you plan on violating OO design.

  Further, the whole idea of "polymorphism in things done in the
constructor" is illogically.  Polymorphism means that a message send to
object Y might behavior differently depending on whether Y is of type X
or of type SonOfX.  But, during the constructor, Y ain't neither yet. 
You want to treat the constructor as if it were just another member
function (probably because ObjC's init methods are just like other
methods).  But constructors are different, and that's where their power
lies.

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From: jabi@acsu.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: WHERE to find AppKit DOC ??
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:28:42 -0500
Organization: University at Buffalo
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To: ltinguely@pobox.com

Lionel Tinguely wrote:
> 
> Hi There!
> 
> Who knows where I could fine a downloadable version of FoundationKit
> and  AppKit documentation ?  I could only fine a "online viewable"
> version at next.com
> 
> Thanks
> 
> LiONEL
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> name  : Lionel Tinguely (MiMe & NeXT mail ok)
> e-mail: ltinguely@pobox.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be
> regarded as a criminal offence
>                                         E.W. Dijkstra
> 
> Teaching C++ should be sentenced to life imprisonment
> 
>                                         Me

The best thing is to use a Macintosh Computer and
download all the files from:
http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/Download/apple.html

If you are using Black Hardware:
http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/Download/mach.html
But Only the Foundation Kit is available for download.

If you are using Windows NT, you can still download
tar program and download the files. Check:
http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/Download/winnt.html

-- 

w a s s i m   j a b i  ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Dept. of Architecture    http://libra.arch.buffalo.edu/www/
University at Buffalo   EMail:       wjabi@arch.buffalo.edu
3435 Main St. - Hayes     Tel:            +1 (716) 829-3483
Buffalo, NY 14214 USA     Fax:            +1 (716) 829-3256
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Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 12:21:18 -0600
From: curranj@mskcc.org
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
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In article <5heg3q$a4a$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>,
  kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
>
> Semantically you are right.  In real life your code is not at all
> isolated from changes to the class.  If the class changes, you
> recompile.  So if someone finds a nasty bug in their class, it's
> now hardcoded into your software, and shipping a new library won't fix
> it.
       True enough.  That's one of the trade-offs involved.

> Bullshit.  You are equating syntactic sugar with OO functianality.

  I'd argue that 90% of OO functionality *IS* syntactic sugar, but that's
a debate for a diferent time.

>
> >beneath you.  OK, Given the class:
> >	class Point
> >	{	int	x;
> >		int	y;
> >	public:
> >		Point(int X, int Y) { x= X; y=Y;};
> >		operator=(Point rhs) {x=rhs.x; y=rhs.y;}
> >		virtual print() {cout << "(" << x << "," << y << ")" }
> >	};
> >
> >	[comparable ObjC class omitted]
> >
> >	Now let's see what you can do with it.
> >Creation on automatic object (on stack):
> >C++:	Point Pt(10,20);
> >ObjC:	Can't be done.
> >(advantage C++)
>
> Sure it can be done.  Don't make something as rediculously simple as a
> Point into a class, especially if there aren't going to be any virtual
> member functions in it.   Objective C programmers tend not to try to
> turn every concept into a class.

  Which bring us back I point previously --- You seem to be arguing that
ObjC is a great language as long as you don't use it.  Point might be
"ridiculously simple" but is a perfect concept to be made into a class.
Every class library I've worked with (C++ or SmallTalk) had one. 
Treating a point as one object instead of two separate coordinate numbers
makes handling it much easier. (for instance, how do you return one from
a function?)

> >Shallow copy:
> >C++:	pPt1 = pPt2;
> >ObjC:	Pt1 = Pt2;
> >(draw)
>
> That's a pointer assignment, it's not making a copy of either object.

   But that's what a shallow copy is........

>
> >Deep Copy:
> >C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;
> >ObJC:	Pt1 = [[Point alloc] init:Pt2];
> >(Again I prefer the C++ syntax, but, this time I think it's clear
> >enough to say advantage C++)
>
> Try:    Pt1 = [Pt2 copy];
>
> At least in the objective c case you know from looking at the code
> what is going on.  In C++ you have to go and track down the
> declarations of the variables involved to figure out what's going on.
>

  Well, that depends on there being a "copy" method defined for that
class.	I'm not sure how widespread that convention is.  I assumed an
init method using an object of that type would be more common.

  And how confusing can "Pt1=Pt2;" be?	It treats Pt1 & Pt2 exactly the
same if they are ints, floats or Points.

> >effecient deep copy:
> >C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;	// inlining handled by compiler
> >			// encapsolation maintained
>
> Only if the assignment operator isn't virtual.

  No.  Since Pt1 & Pt2 are actual object and not pointers to objects,
they can only be Points, and not some subclass of Point, hence they could
be inlined.

>
> >ObjC:	Pt1->x = Pt2->x; // inlining handled by programmer
> >	Pt1->y = Pt2->y; // encapsolation violated.
>
> That may be 'efficient' for some cases, but I seriously doubt you'll
> ever find many Objective C programmers that write code like that.
>
> >effecient polymorphic call:
> >C++:	pPt->print();
> >ObjC:	func	f;
> >	f = sel_getMethod(Point, @selector(print));
> >	f();

> And once again you are totally hung up on the assumed poor performance
> of Objective C method dispatching, without taking a serious look at
> the benefits it has.

  I admit that it has benefits -- but only in rare circumstances ----
Places where I could generally write a C++ code that allows it (prototype
version posted elsewhere in this thread).  The point is I'd like to be
able to turn it off for the 99% of the time where I don't need it.

>
> >very effecient method call when run-time polymorphism isn't needed
> >(ie, object actual type is known)
> >C++:	Pt.print();
> >Obj:	can't be done.
>
> In cases where run-time polymorphism aren't needed, I don't use a
> class.  I see almost no reason to do so in cases where the 'objects'
> involved are so simple as to not require OO features, other than
> for syntactical reasons.  I've seen what happens when C++ programmers
> go apeshit and make EVERYHING a class right down to 'Points'.  They
> wind up with massively complex code with poor performance.

  Nonsense --- You're just rationalizing.  You language of choice isn't
good for trivial classes, so you've just declare that making trivia class
isn't good OOP, and throwing in an unsupported specter of complex code
and poor performance.  Elsewhere, I countered an ObjC example of:
[alertArea text: "Danger" color:red blink:ON] with a C++ example of
alertArea << blinking << red << "Danger"; I have infact coded up an
example for that which works.  It involves several trival class and some
very complex code --- ALL of which is hidden away in a header file, where
NO ONE has to be concerned with it-- leaving just the simple syntax
above....

>
> >	In other words, the C++ code is always graceful,
> > pretty, encapsolated, and easier to maintain.
>
  I happen
> to LIKE the fact that the syntax for dealing with objects in Objective
> C is DIFFERENT than the syntax for dealing with structures -- because
> they work differently.  Consider the following line of C++ code:
>
> 	x = y->foo(z);
>
> From reading just that code, you can not tell if y is a struct or a
> class, whether foo is virtual or not, or whether z could be modififed.

  True -- because NONE of that is supposed to matter!  In fact, C++
acknowledges no difference between a class & a struct (OK, one
difference: members of structs are public by default, while members of
classes are private by default; otherwise they can be used
interchangibly)

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From: fahl@dataton.se (Mike Fahl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:41:25 +0100
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Charles William Swiger  wrote:

> SEL's are 4-byte values, which are really just a pointer to a string
> which is the name of the method-- ie, SEL's are guaranteed to be unique.
> 
> When I was talking about hash lookups, I was talking about looking up
> the method implementation for a given class associated with a particular
> selector, not about looking up a selector for a method name.

Let's see if I got this straight:

1. A "SEL" is used to identify a method name.

2. The "SEL" is typically a 32 bit pointer to a string, which is the
method name.

3. All methods with the same name use the same "SEL", regardless of the
class to which the various methods belong.

4. For each class, theres a table that associates SELs to the actual
function for the implementations of all methods related to the class.

5. A hash is produced from the "SEL" to speed up the lookup of the
function in the class' SEL-to-function table.

Assuming the above is correct, how are the following two cases handled:

I. Assume that the two classes A and B both have a function named f, but
which takes different paremeters. How are the two distiguished? Or am I
not allowed to use the same function name in different classes?

II. How can objects living in different address spaces talk to each
other? The "SEL" - being a pointer to to a string (ie, and address) is
address-space specific, and wouldn't make sense outside the process.
OTOH, passing the function name as a string and do a full string lookup
seems rather expensive.

Mike Fahl
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Mike Fahl  wrote:
> Assuming the above is correct, how are the following two cases handled:

> I. Assume that the two classes A and B both have a function named f, but
> which takes different paremeters. How are the two distiguished? Or am I
> not allowed to use the same function name in different classes?

Since ObjC is dynamically typed, there's no C++ style draw(Object), 
draw(String), draw(Triangle) as different methods. ObjC uses the 
smalltalk convention of:

- foo:param;
- foo:param withBar:param2;

.. and the selectors look like foo:, foo:withBar:, so they don't collide.

> II. How can objects living in different address spaces talk to each
> other? The "SEL" - being a pointer to to a string (ie, and address) is
> address-space specific, and wouldn't make sense outside the process.
> OTOH, passing the function name as a string and do a full string lookup
> seems rather expensive.

Objects living in different address spaces would be different processes.
They have totally separate runtimes.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: jan@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca (Jan Sacharuk)
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Newer version of Emacs for Open/NeXTStep?
Date: 31 Mar 1997 21:39:49 GMT
Organization: University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada
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The version of emacs that shipped with Openstep is hopelessly old. Is
there a newer version that'll run under Openstep/Nextstep?

Thanks
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 17:11:53 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 31-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by Mike Fahl@dataton.se 
> > When I was talking about hash lookups, I was talking about looking up
> > the method implementation for a given class associated with a particular
> > selector, not about looking up a selector for a method name.
>  
> Let's see if I got this straight:
>  
> 1. A "SEL" is used to identify a method name.
>  
> 2. The "SEL" is typically a 32 bit pointer to a string, which is the
> method name.
>  
> 3. All methods with the same name use the same "SEL", regardless of the
> class to which the various methods belong.
>  
> 4. For each class, theres a table that associates SELs to the actual
> function for the implementations of all methods related to the class.
>  
> 5. A hash is produced from the "SEL" to speed up the lookup of the
> function in the class' SEL-to-function table.

Yes, I think everything you've said above is right.

> Assuming the above is correct, how are the following two cases handled:
>  
> I. Assume that the two classes A and B both have a function named f, but
> which takes different paremeters. How are the two distiguished? Or am I
> not allowed to use the same function name in different classes?

The method string includes the argument specifiers, and you usually
specify method names which are descriptive of what the arguments are. 
For example, if you want to create a new NSNumber which is an int or a
float, you'd use


    [[NSNumber alloc] initWithInt:123];
    [[NSNumber alloc] initWithFloat:123.0];

...and these would have different names.

However, you can use the same name for different argument types if you
really wanted to.  You'd probably not want to have the header files
defining the two classes included at the same time unless you've
explicitly typed the all of the uses of that function by class name so
that the compiler can figure out which one is which.

The compiler and runtime system keeps track of what the type of the
arguments should be, so any of the automatic type conversions are
normally done for you.  If you don't specify enough information, the
compiler will provide a warning and/or error, and if you deliberately
miscast an argument, you're probably going to get wrong results.

In other words, if you try to deliberately confuse the compiler, you'll
probably succeed.  :-)

> II. How can objects living in different address spaces talk to each
> other? The "SEL" - being a pointer to to a string (ie, and address) is
> address-space specific, and wouldn't make sense outside the process.
> OTOH, passing the function name as a string and do a full string lookup
> seems rather expensive.

I don't know for certain but I'd assume they just do the full-string
lookup once and cache the SEL value for doing any more remote method
invocations with that method name.  The overhead associated with network
transmissions is probably more significant than the one-time cost of
doing such a lookup per method name.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: I need software suport help in DC
Date: 31 Mar 1997 22:30:57 GMT
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In <5gulh7$od9@mimsy.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke wrote:
> >I can connect to Novell server, but I can't get printer connectivity.
> 
...some good advices by Sean Luke ommited...

If your Novell server runs Appletalk (AFP printer server) the upcoming 
release of CAPer (not the V4 currently available on the archives) can do the 
trick.

> >If its possible, I'd like to be able to connect to an NT server 

To import a NT SMB volume use 'rumba' as available on the archives. It works 
fine. For printing see above plug for CAPer (if your NT server runs the 
Appletalk protocol) or simply use samba.

--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net
* NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy

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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 31 Mar 1997 16:04:43 -0500
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Mike Fahl (fahl@dataton.se) wrote in article <1997033120412571610@du86-96.ppp.algonet.se> 

]Charles William Swiger  wrote:
]
]> SEL's are 4-byte values, which are really just a pointer to a string
]> which is the name of the method-- ie, SEL's are guaranteed to be unique.
]> 
]> When I was talking about hash lookups, I was talking about looking up
]> the method implementation for a given class associated with a particular
]> selector, not about looking up a selector for a method name.
]
]Let's see if I got this straight:
]
]1. A "SEL" is used to identify a method name.
]
]2. The "SEL" is typically a 32 bit pointer to a string, which is the
]method name.

 I am not sure that SEL is really a pointer. NeXT manual says
 merely that it is the identifier of method name, and
 it's uniqueness is guaraneed by the run-time. I am sure that
 trying to get method's name by dereferencing selector is
 the recipe for disaster.

]3. All methods with the same name use the same "SEL", regardless of the
]class to which the various methods belong.

 Yep.


]4. For each class, theres a table that associates SELs to the actual
]function for the implementations of all methods related to the class.

 Yep, a "class dispatch table"

]5. A hash is produced from the "SEL" to speed up the lookup of the
]function in the class' SEL-to-function table.

 No, SEL _is_ such a hash.

]Assuming the above is correct, how are the following two cases handled:
]
]I. Assume that the two classes A and B both have a function named f, but
]which takes different paremeters. How are the two distiguished? Or am I
]not allowed to use the same function name in different classes?

 You are not allowed to use the same method name to call functions
 with different return types and arguments (unless you
 statically type the receivers for the message). Dynamic
 binding demands that.

]II. How can objects living in different address spaces talk to each
]other? 

 Why, by sending messages to each other, of course.

]The "SEL" - being a pointer to to a string (ie, and address) is
]address-space specific, and wouldn't make sense outside the process.

 If you are talking about messaging within application, 
 each SEL is unique. The method it invokes is determined by the object
 it is sent to.

]OTOH, passing the function name as a string and do a full string lookup
]seems rather expensive.

 That's what SEL data type is for. It is NOT pointer for the string.
-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: planetary 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: I need software suport help in DC
Date: 31 Mar 1997 17:46:34 -0700
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Frank M. Siegert  wrote:
: In <5gulh7$od9@mimsy.cs.umd.edu> Sean Luke wrote:
: > >I can connect to Novell server, but I can't get printer connectivity.
: > 
: ...some good advices by Sean Luke ommited...

: If your Novell server runs Appletalk (AFP printer server) the upcoming 
: release of CAPer (not the V4 currently available on the archives) can do the 
: trick.

You can also run Samba on the NetWare server, allowing you to mount
NetWare volumes using the same mechanism you use to mount NT resources.

But connecting to NetWare from 3.3 should Just Work. You shouldn't have to
run a nonnative protocol on a NetWare server just to access bindery
resources under NEXTSTEP.

............kris
-- 
Kristopher Magnusson                kris@xmission.com (no NeXTmail, please)
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.help,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Newer version of Emacs for Open/NeXTStep?
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checkout  http://nice.ethz.ch/~chris

TjL

--
TjL      http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
"NEXTSTEP computers come with a set of uncomplicated yet powerful
networking app lications, ... which reside in the /NextAdmin directory." 
-- NeXT online docs (01_Planning.rtf) 




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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 23:39:44 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 31-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
by Michael Kagalenko@lynx.d 
>]2. The "SEL" is typically a 32 bit pointer to a string, which is the
>]method name.
>  
>  I am not sure that SEL is really a pointer. NeXT manual says
>  merely that it is the identifier of method name, and
>  it's uniqueness is guaraneed by the run-time. I am sure that
>  trying to get method's name by dereferencing selector is
>  the recipe for disaster.

From the CalculatorLab demo:

[ ... ]
Breakpoint 1, -[SimpleCalc init] (self=0xbf488, _cmd=0x617f035) at
SimpleCalc.m:32
(gdb) p _cmd
$1 = (struct objc_selector *) 0x617f035
(gdb) p (char *) _cmd
$2 = 0x617f035 "init"

Of course, nothing about the runtime has ever stated or guaranteed that
you can deference a SEL as a (char *) to a string which is the method
name for that selector, but it does work.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: SEL and all that (Re: Objective C?)
Date: 01 Apr 1997 05:25:34 -0800
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In article <1997033120412571610@du86-96.ppp.algonet.se> fahl@dataton.se (Mike Fahl) writes:

   1. A "SEL" is used to identify a method name.

   2. The "SEL" is typically a 32 bit pointer to a string, which is the
   method name.

I don't think that the Objective-C language guarantees this.  The GNU
runtime, for example, allows for multiple values of SEL to represent
the same method; in particular, in the GNU runtime, you must use
"sel_eq", not "==", for comparing two selectors.

   I. Assume that the two classes A and B both have a function named f, but
   which takes different paremeters. How are the two distiguished? Or am I
   not allowed to use the same function name in different classes?

Objective-C has no overloading or name mangling, so you should
generally not use the same method name with different static argument
types in different classes.  The compiler will generally check
interface definitions for consistency in this regard.  If you manage
to evade that check (unless you play unconventional tricks with trying
to hide methods from interfaces, that's pretty difficult) you get
undefined behavior.  In principle, the runtime could also verify that
such type errors are not present, since methods are registered with
the runtime and type information is available, but AFAIK no runtime
does (and some Objective-C programs might actually depend on this).

Because methods are most frequently used with objects as arguments,
the static argument types are usually "id", and satisfying this
requirement is not that hard.

   II. How can objects living in different address spaces talk to each
   other? The "SEL" - being a pointer to to a string (ie, and address) is
   address-space specific, and wouldn't make sense outside the process.
   OTOH, passing the function name as a string and do a full string lookup
   seems rather expensive.

Well, the method implementation itself is a function pointer and hence
address space specific.  FWIW, if anything, Objective-C is a little
more flexible in this regard than C++, since unlike C++, method
selectors do have a well-defined address-space independent
representation.

Thomas.
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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
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Charles William Swiger  writes:

>Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 31-Mar-97 Re: Objective C?
>by Michael Kagalenko@lynx.d 
>>]2. The "SEL" is typically a 32 bit pointer to a string, which is the
>>]method name.
>>  
>>  I am not sure that SEL is really a pointer. NeXT manual says
>>  merely that it is the identifier of method name, and
>>  it's uniqueness is guaraneed by the run-time. I am sure that
>>  trying to get method's name by dereferencing selector is
>>  the recipe for disaster.

>From the CalculatorLab demo:

>[ ... ]
>Breakpoint 1, -[SimpleCalc init] (self=0xbf488, _cmd=0x617f035) at
>SimpleCalc.m:32
>(gdb) p _cmd
>$1 = (struct objc_selector *) 0x617f035
>(gdb) p (char *) _cmd
>$2 = 0x617f035 "init"

>Of course, nothing about the runtime has ever stated or guaranteed that
>you can deference a SEL as a (char *) to a string which is the method
>name for that selector, but it does work.

That works, *BUT*:

according to "objc.h":

typedef struct objc_selector 	*SEL;    

It's kind oflike getting to your superclass with **self.  The first item
in that struct is a pointer, but *boy* is that breaking rules.

-jcr

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: SEL and all that (Re: Objective C?)
Date: Tue,  1 Apr 1997 12:32:33 -0500
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 1-Apr-97 SEL and all that
(Re: Objec.. by Thomas@nohost.nodomain 
>    2. The "SEL" is typically a 32 bit pointer to a string, which is the
>    method name.
>  
> I don't think that the Objective-C language guarantees this.

Not at all-- all you know is that a SEL is a (struct objc_selector *). 
But it is the case, at least for NeXT's implementation of the Obj-C
runtime, that this happens to be equivalent to a (char *) to the method
name.

> The GNU runtime, for example, allows for multiple values of SEL to
> represent the same method; in particular, in the GNU runtime, you must use
> "sel_eq", not "==", for comparing two selectors.

Right.  I was simply trying to give an accurate description of how
method invocations and selectors work by explaining what was really
going on.  When writing code, you'll use compiler constructs like
@selector() or runtime functions like sel_getUid() or the sel_eq()
function you'd mentioned above, and you'll never deal with selectors as
anything but anonymous typed items.

However, I'm of the opinion that having the mapping of method names to
selectors be 1-to-1 is (at least, sometimes) a useful invariant, and I
wonder why the GNU runtime didn't want to guarantee this.  It's probably
not a big deal either way, though.  You _can_ use any of the multiple
SEL values and the GNU runtime will find the same function
implementation within objc_msgSend, right...?

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: dashlangan@hotmail.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: A Y2K Solution So Simple That Even a Child Can Do It
Date: 1 Apr 1997 19:49:10 +0200
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The "Open and Shut Window Technique" is so simple a Y2K solution
that even a child can do it.  (Now, don't get me wrong.  I do not
endorse child labor.  I fully support the enforcement of child
labor laws in India, the Philippines, El Salvador, and elsewhere.)

See url:  http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

Dash Langan
--
Keep India in mind - where super children grow up to be super
programmers.

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From: neuss@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nospam (Christian Neuss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Finding leaky memory...
Date: 1 Apr 1997 17:13:14 GMT
Organization: Technische Hochschule Darmstadt
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Timothy Luoma (luomat@peak.org) wrote:

> I say that because my swapfile will continue to grow even when nothing is
> happening or has happened for quite some time.

> What are some telltale signs of leaky apps, or how can I run apps under
> some program that will report memory leaks?

ps -axe | grep OmniWeb

:-) sorry, couldn't resist..
(actually, it's not that bad once you change the cache settings)

Chris
--
//  Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
//  http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
//  fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
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From: "Michael Allen Latta" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Checking on an old issue in the newer releases
Date: 1 Apr 1997 17:41:48 GMT
Organization: SuperNet Inc. +1.303.296.8202 Denver Colorado
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I have been out of touch with NeXT since 3.2 developer days.  Have they
fixed the problems related to dynamically loading a NIB file and needing to
release the objects tonained therein?  I remember great contortions to have
to release the objects in the NIB.  There was some hope that the reference
counting of OpenStep would resolve this when the NIB owner was released.

Please reply by e-mail I am not reading this group on a regular basis.

Mike Latta
mlatta@hologisys.com
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 1 Apr 1997 20:04:16 GMT
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On 03/31/97, curranj@mskcc.org wrote:
>In article <5heg3q$a4a$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>,
>  kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
>>
>> Sure it can be done.  Don't make something as rediculously simple as
>>a Point into a class, especially if there aren't going to be any 
>> virtual member functions in it.   Objective C programmers tend not
>> to try to turn every concept into a class.
>
>  Which bring us back I point previously --- You seem to be arguing
> that ObjC is a great language as long as you don't use it.  Point
> might be "ridiculously simple" but is a perfect concept to be made 
> into a class.

Do me a favor and don't put words into my mouth.  That is not what I
said.

>Every class library I've worked with (C++ or SmallTalk) had one. 

In C++, people do it because C++ is good at allowing you to define
concrete data types such as points as a class.  In SmallTalk everything 
is an object, so that's a pretty dumb argument. 

>Treating a point as one object instead of two separate coordinate 
>numbers makes handling it much easier. (for instance, how do you 
>return one from a function?)

Gee James, like this?

NSPoint doSomethingWithPoint(NSPoint point)
{
	// Do something with point.
	return point;
}

>> >Shallow copy:
>> >C++:	pPt1 = pPt2;
>> >ObjC:	Pt1 = Pt2;
>> >(draw)
>>
>> That's a pointer assignment, it's not making a copy of either 
object.
>
>   But that's what a shallow copy is........

No, it's not.  A shallow copy is defined in every book I've ever seen
as copying all of the members of an object, but not all of the objects
that it may point to, which is a deep copy.  See page 218 in tha C++ 
Reference Manual, for example.

>>
>> >Deep Copy:
>> >C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;
>> >ObJC:	Pt1 = [[Point alloc] init:Pt2];
>> >(Again I prefer the C++ syntax, but, this time I think it's clear
>> >enough to say advantage C++)
>>
>> Try:    Pt1 = [Pt2 copy];
>>
>> At least in the objective c case you know from looking at the code
>> what is going on.  In C++ you have to go and track down the
>> declarations of the variables involved to figure out what's going 
on.
>>
>
>  Well, that depends on there being a "copy" method defined for that
>class.	I'm not sure how widespread that convention is.  I assumed an
>init method using an object of that type would be more common.

It's generally defined in those places where it actually makes sense to
have a copy operation on an object.   The compiler won't try to be 
'smart' and generate one for you automatically, and thus make 
assumptions about how the object works.  That's a good thing, IMHO.

>  And how confusing can "Pt1=Pt2;" be?	It treats Pt1 & Pt2 exactly the
>same if they are ints, floats or Points.

Except that ints, floats or points don't usually have pointers to other 
objects contained with them.  They are basically just 'dumb' storage 
classes.  

>> >effecient deep copy:
>> >C++:	Pt1 = Pt2;	// inlining handled by compiler
>> >			// encapsolation maintained
>>
>> Only if the assignment operator isn't virtual.
>
>  No.  Since Pt1 & Pt2 are actual object and not pointers to objects,
>they can only be Points, and not some subclass of Point, hence they 
>could be inlined.

True enough.  Although amazingly enough I don't need C++ to do that.

>> And once again you are totally hung up on the assumed poor 
performance
>> of Objective C method dispatching, without taking a serious look at
>> the benefits it has.
>
>  I admit that it has benefits -- but only in rare circumstances ----
>Places where I could generally write a C++ code that allows it 
(prototype
>version posted elsewhere in this thread).  The point is I'd like to be
>able to turn it off for the 99% of the time where I don't need it.

It seems to me like you spend 99% of your time writing a lot of 
concrete data types, rather than high level objects, so this is 
probably true for you.   A lot of the code I write could probably be 
done in C++, maybe even 90% of it.  But getting that last 10% to work 
the way it does now, and as easy and simply as it does would be a major 
pain in the ass.  And no one is complaining about the performance of 
the application I've written.  In fact everyone is praising how fast 
it's been written and how well it works.   To many people, THAT is the 
key issue at hand.  All of the runtime 'efficiency' in the world isn't 
going to help you a damned bit if you can't write your code in a timely 
manner because you're spending most of your time trying to wrap your 
head and design around how C++ works.

>> >very effecient method call when run-time polymorphism isn't needed
>> >(ie, object actual type is known)
>> >C++:	Pt.print();
>> >Obj:	can't be done.
>>
>> In cases where run-time polymorphism aren't needed, I don't use a
>> class.  I see almost no reason to do so in cases where the 'objects'
>> involved are so simple as to not require OO features, other than
>> for syntactical reasons.  I've seen what happens when C++ 
programmers
>> go apeshit and make EVERYHING a class right down to 'Points'.  They
>> wind up with massively complex code with poor performance.
>
>  Nonsense --- You're just rationalizing.  You language of choice 
isn't
>good for trivial classes, so you've just declare that making trivia 
class
>isn't good OOP, and throwing in an unsupported specter of complex code
>and poor performance.  Elsewhere, I countered an ObjC example of:
>[alertArea text: "Danger" color:red blink:ON] with a C++ example of
>alertArea << blinking << red << "Danger"; I have infact coded up an
>example for that which works.  It involves several trival class and 
some
>very complex code --- ALL of which is hidden away in a header file, 
where
>NO ONE has to be concerned with it-- leaving just the simple syntax
>above....

I am not just rationalizing.  I have seen bad C++ code, lots of it 
unfortunately.   When you see game code that has abstracted EVERYTHING, 
all the way down to using point classes and such for 3D operations, and 
have seen how it actually performed, you wonder.  It's easy to slap 
together a really simple point class that lets you encapsulate math for 
dealing with points and such.  But I wonder how many people actually go 
and look at the code being generated to see if it's really as efficient 
as they think it is.  Yeah, it makes your source code nice and pretty.  
You can add points, multiply them, etc. to your hearts content.  But 
how many C++ programmers stop and take a look at the code being 
generated?  A lot of them might be suprised by what they find.

>> they work differently.  Consider the following line of C++ code:
>>
>> 	x = y->foo(z);
>>
>> From reading just that code, you can not tell if y is a struct or a
>> class, whether foo is virtual or not, or whether z could be 
modififed.
>
>  True -- because NONE of that is supposed to matter!  In fact, C++
>acknowledges no difference between a class & a struct (OK, one
>difference: members of structs are public by default, while members of
>classes are private by default; otherwise they can be used
>interchangibly)

But it ought to matter when there are semantic differences between 
different kinds of operations.  If people looking at your code can't
tell (unambiguously) what it's doing without looking up a lot of stuff 
elsewhere in the code, then you have a maintenance problem.   Why are 
there 26 entries under the heading of "ambiguity" in the C++ ARM index?
The C++ Reference manual has 15. The _vast_ majority of them are C++ 
and not C related (such as the if-else thing).  

-Ken

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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 1 Apr 1997 20:45:45 GMT
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On 03/29/97, James M. Curran wrote:
>In <<5hb805$fo6@news.ml.com>>, 
>necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:
>
>>  Additionally, it is a 
>>real world example because when you subclass things in C++ where you 
don't 
>>have the source, you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in things 
done in 
>>the constructor.
>
>	But in ObjC, "you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in 
things
>done in the constructor" either because YOU DON'T HAVE A CONSTRUCTOR!

Yes we do, it's called 'init', or whatever initXXX method the class 
designer designated for initializing that object. What we don't have is 
an unorthogonal language feature for doing object instantiation.  And 
unlike C++, Objective C doesn't have this problem of how do deal with 
an instantiation that fails.  We don't need to set special state in the 
object or throw exceptions to deal with it.

>	In ObjC, after an object is created (using alloc), you can
>polymorphically initialize it (using init).

Yep.  Or you can just do...

myObj = [MyClass new];

... which does both.   And by the way, +alloc is a message just like 
anything else.  It just happens to be one used for allocating an 
object.   Many Objective C kits provide other methods for creating 
objects that don't use the alloc/init or new convention.  For example:

myString = [NSString stringWithCString:"C++ ru|_|3z!"];

>	In C++, after an object is created (using the ctor), you can
>polymorphically initialize it (using a member function which you can
>can init() if you like).

Which may mean up to 3 steps are invovled.  First the allocation 
(possibly on the stack), then the constructor, then the polymorphic 
init routine.  Why should you need the extra step?

-Ken

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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 1 Apr 1997 21:04:49 GMT
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On 03/31/97, curranj@mskcc.org wrote:
>In article <5hniko$ao0@news.ml.com>,
>  necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov) wrote:
>>
>> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
>>
>> >	But in ObjC, "you don't have the benefit of polymorphism in 
things
>> >done in the constructor" either because YOU DON'T HAVE A 
CONSTRUCTOR!
>>
>> And the down-side here is?
>
>  The downside is that you don't have a constructor .

Right, because they aren't necessary in Objective C, at least not in 
the C++ sense where there is a special language feature required to 
support object instantiation.  Hence, there is no downside.

>Constructors are one of C++'s most useful and powerful features.  To 
>suggest that we are better off without them just because of one
>failing in a pathological example is foolish.

Actually, C++ pretty much requires constructors, so of course they are 
useful.

>> >	In ObjC, after an object is created (using alloc), you can
>> >polymorphically initialize it (using init).
>>
>> But I already do this by convention,
>>
>> >	In C++, after an object is created (using the ctor), you can
>> >polymorphically initialize it (using a member function which you 
can
>> >can init() if you like).
>>
>> you don't.
>>
>
>Actually, we do -- the derived class can (and should) have it's own
>constructor, and with it's own constructor, the object is correctly
>initially -- based on a feature that is actually part of the language, 
>not a convention dreamed up by users to get around a language's lack 
of a
>specific feature (as ObjC's alloc/init convention is)

Oh jeeze.  So your best argument against the Objective C object 
instantian mechanism is that it's 'a convention dreamed up by users'?
Give us a break, please.  

>  The code you posted is a bad example for many reasons.  Basically, 
it
>requires the user of the class who wil be creating a subclass of it, 
to
>KNOW that the describe() method will be called from the constructor.  
But
>that is an implementation detail.  The class users should NOT be 
required
>(or even allowed) to know that.  Hence you are showing that ObjC is a
>better OO language, IF you plan on violating OO design.

There is nothing about making method calls during object initialization 
that violates OO design in Objective C, and in fact it's quite common 
to do so.

>  Further, the whole idea of "polymorphism in things done in the
>constructor" is illogically.  Polymorphism means that a message send 
to
>object Y might behavior differently depending on whether Y is of type 
X
>or of type SonOfX.  But, during the constructor, Y ain't neither yet. 

That may be true in C++ because the vptr changes as each constructor is 
called in sequence.  Thus, the effictive class of the object can change
during instantiation. This is why you can't really use any polymorphic 
init code in C++ until AFTER the constructor.

In Objective C, an object's isa pointer is set up _once_ by the +alloc
routine in NSObject.  Thus, it is safe to call init routines that may 
be overridden by a subclass.  There are examples of this sort of thing 
in the Objective C manual from NeXT.  Maybe you should read it 
sometime.

>You want to treat the constructor as if it were just another member
>function (probably because ObjC's init methods are just like other
>methods).  But constructors are different, and that's where their
>power lies.

So what is this 'power' that C++ constructors have over Objective C?  
The way I see it, they are less general and more error prone than 
having a clean, orthogonal method of creating objects.

-Ken


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From: jin@merrimac.rutgers.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 1 Apr 1997 16:07:59 -0500
Organization: Rutgers University
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JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) writes:

>         I think part of what you're missing, is you don't fully understand
>C++'s operator overloading.  In C++, I can define what = means for a
>object.  Hence, as the designer of a class, I can specify exactly what
>members need to be copied and how they should be copied.  But, as a
>user of a class, all I need to know is that saying "x = y;" handles it
>all. THAT'S the true essense of OOP, and ObjC can only approximate
>that....


Apparently you are the one who don't understand the true essense of OOP.
Here is why, by the words of Bertand Meyer in his book "Objected-oriented
Software Construction":

when he discusses overloading and genericity, he says:
 
"Overloading appears to be an attact on issue 2 (accounting for variations in 
data structure and algorithms), and 4 (enabling clients to request an
operation without knowing its implementation). One close look, however,
the result is disappointing."
 
"First, we have not made any progress towards solving issue 5: 
capturing fine grains of commonality among groups of implementations of the 
same general data structure. Overloading does not help..."
 
"Overloading, on the other hand, is no more than a syntactic facility which
relieves programmers from having to invent different names for different
implementations of an operation and, in essence, places that burden on the 
compiler. But this does not solve issue 2 and 4. Each invocation of an
overloaded operation name - say search (x,t) - refers to just one version of
the operation: the client programmer who writes the invocation knows
exactly ( as does the compiler which analyzes it) which version is being
invoked. "
 
"Note that the client programmers do not actually need to know how each
version is implemented, since in most languages with generic packages (
such as Ada) modules may be used through an interface describing the 
available routines independent of their implementation. But they do need
to decide explicitly in each case which version is used. In other words, if 
your modules use various kinds of tables, you do not need to know how
to implement binaries trees, indexes sequential files and the like,
but you must say which one of these representations you want each time 
you use a table operation".
 
 
 
 
 
--------- end of quotes
 
 
 
When you use operation overloading in C++ like the example you used: "x = y;",
you don't achieve anything in OOP. The only thing it does is now the compiler
has to pick the right version of the code.
 
 
Gavin 
 
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Openstep NT dev tools (bugs ?)
Date: 1 Apr 1997 23:22:41 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
Lines: 27
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I am having trouble with the Windows NT Openstep 4.1 dev tools.

First: (Symbols defined in subprojects do not get exported from DLLs)
A NextAnswer provided a makefile-patch that supposedly fixed this.  
Unfortunately, the makefile patch is also broken.  It is not even correct 
make syntax.  Has anyone resolved this ?  Could you help me fix it ?

Second: (Debugging frameworks is very very hard)
NextAnswers suggests specifying a fixed location for the framework DLL in 
order to facilitate debugging.  This is not working for us.  Has anyone 
resolved this.

Third:  (the second problem wouldn't be)
The second problem wouldn't be a problem if Openstep 4.1 NT worked like 
Openstep 4.1 Mach.  I have a large Openstep project converted from a 3.3 
project.  It compiles without warnings and works fine under Openstep 4.1 
Mach.  I have to re-arrange the code (no subprojects) under NT to compile at 
all, and then I get warnings (mostly about NSString) that I don't get under 
Mach.  Finally, when I run the App under NT, I get  segmentation violations.  
The faults always occur in the same places, but I can not debug them (See 
second) and there is no problem on Mach.

Our "Platinum" NeXT support has been relatively helpful in the past.  NeXT 
says they can not help further without our source code, and we can not give 
them that.  Before pushing harder on NeXT, I was hoping someone here had the 
answers.

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From: necakov@mljsdi9.dev.japan.ml.com (Tony Necakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 2 Apr 1997 01:36:16 GMT
Organization: Merrill Lynch
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curranj@mskcc.org wrote:

>  The downside is that you don't have a constructor .  Constructors
>are one of C++'s most useful and powerful features.  To suggest that we
>are better off without them just because of one failing in a pathological
>example is foolish.

Relax, take a tranquilizer, I was merely pointing out that they do have 
failings.

>> >	In ObjC, after an object is created (using alloc), you can
>> >polymorphically initialize it (using init).
>>
>> But I already do this by convention,
>>
>> >	In C++, after an object is created (using the ctor), you can
>> >polymorphically initialize it (using a member function which you can
>> >can init() if you like).
>>
>> you don't.
>
>Actually, we do -- the derived class can (and should) have it's own
>constructor, and with it's own constructor, the object is correctly
[snipped]

I was refering to the invocation of a method that is not polymorphically 
challenged.  I do see the advantages to constructors, by the way.  At least 
they guarantee the state of the object at construction.  Its not enough to 
make me enjoy coding C++.

>  The code you posted is a bad example for many reasons.  Basically, it
>requires the user of the class who wil be creating a subclass of it, to
>KNOW that the describe() method will be called from the constructor.  But
>that is an implementation detail.  The class users should NOT be required
>(or even allowed) to know that.  Hence you are showing that ObjC is a
>better OO language, IF you plan on violating OO design.

What?  If, for example, I design a method that tells me something about the 
behaviour of an object such as
- Boolean isResizable
it becomes part of the interface to that object and I should be able to 
override that in subclasses that I wish never to be resizable such that it 
always returns No.  Now I don't care if its called or not in my 
initialization method or any other method, all I care is that I've redefined 
the behaviour of my subclass and any methods that take this into account 
should be able to, including the initialization.  How does that violate OO 
design?

TN
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 20:23:29 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article <5hrt9h$6s2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:

> That may be true in C++ because the vptr changes as each constructor is 
> called in sequence.  Thus, the effictive class of the object can change
> during instantiation. This is why you can't really use any polymorphic 
> init code in C++ until AFTER the constructor.
> 
> In Objective C, an object's isa pointer is set up _once_ by the +alloc
> routine in NSObject.  Thus, it is safe to call init routines that may 
> be overridden by a subclass.  There are examples of this sort of thing 
> in the Objective C manual from NeXT.  Maybe you should read it 
> sometime.

How can it be safe to call a virtual function in a init method? If the
first thing the init method does is call it's parent's init method you'll
wind up calling a function for an object that isn't fully inited. On the
other hand, if the init method first initializes itself and then calls the
parent classes init method the parent class can change your custom
initializations which is certainly not the way subclassing is supposed to
work.

  --Jesse
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 21:14:40 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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In article <5hrpo0$3ek$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:

> I am not just rationalizing.  I have seen bad C++ code, lots of it 
> unfortunately.   When you see game code that has abstracted EVERYTHING, 
> all the way down to using point classes and such for 3D operations, and 
> have seen how it actually performed, you wonder.  It's easy to slap 
> together a really simple point class that lets you encapsulate math for 
> dealing with points and such.  But I wonder how many people actually go 
> and look at the code being generated to see if it's really as efficient 
> as they think it is.  Yeah, it makes your source code nice and pretty.  
> You can add points, multiply them, etc. to your hearts content.  But 
> how many C++ programmers stop and take a look at the code being 
> generated?  A lot of them might be suprised by what they find.

Not that I want to interrupt the Holy Jihad or anything, but in C++ it's
perfectly valid to give structs methods, including constructors, and to
use them as base classes:

struct CPoint
{
   int x, y;
   CPoint() { x=0; y=0; }
   CPoint& operator+( const CPoint& anotherPt );
};

class ComplexSubClass : public CPoint
{
   ...
};

no performance penalty or code bloat...

A problem I've observed in this thread is that, while advocates of each
language are passingly familiar with the other language, neither is
intimately familiar with both. Indeed, I think that James "Truth" Curran
is guilty of using ObjC examples which are purposefully mal-written, but
then thats why he is in my killfile. 

Seriously, people, both languages are just tools. Both are usefull when
wielded by an experienced engineer. But neither is the be all and end all
of computer languages. Since both are already available to OpenStep
programmers, and will probably be given even more access in Rhapsody, I'm
not sure why this war can't move to lang.c++ or something...

-mark

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Adorning?
Date: 19 Mar 1997 14:41:37 -0800
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Lines: 37
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maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz) writes:
> The issue is that you don't want to change a base class (ie, Window)
> but would like to change _it's_ draw behaviour.  For instance, let's
> say you want the window's title bar to be drawn in purple (ignoring
> resources for now), instead of having to subclass Window into
> MyPuprleWindow, I just attach my Adorner object to it and it handles
> the drawing.

In Objective-C, you can either use a subclass of Window, define a
category of Window which overrides the drawing method, or (probably
most appropriate in this case) make a subclass of Window which does
the right thing, and have the subclass pretend that it's a Window.
This usually ends up looking something like:

@implementation MyPurpleWindow: Window
+ load
{
  [self poseAsClass: [Window class]];
  return self;
}

- draw
{
  [super draw];
  /* new code to do purple titles */
}
@end

The end result is that any application which loads your MyPurpleWindow
class will use MyPurpleWindow wherever it would normally use a Window.

Ah, dynamic runtimes...

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: SEL and all that (Re: Objective C?)
Followup-To: comp.lang.objective-c
Date: 02 Apr 1997 13:44:43 +0200
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology
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	<856715712.25573@dejanews.com> <5eqq6n$s7s@lal.interserv.com>
	
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In article  Charles William Swiger  writes:

   However, I'm of the opinion that having the mapping of method names to
   selectors be 1-to-1 is (at least, sometimes) a useful invariant, and I
   wonder why the GNU runtime didn't want to guarantee this.

When doing dynamic loading, with a possibly changing main program, the
invariant breaks unless your dynamic linker (and object file format) can
do some extra wizardry.  This is _probably_ why NeXT's object file format
has all these objective-c specific segments.

   You _can_ use any of the multiple SEL values and the GNU runtime will
   find the same function implementation within objc_msgSend, right...?

Of course: It's not SEL that counts, but *SEL.  (*SEL).sel_id to be
precise.  --Tiggr
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Two Q: re 'HideOnAutoLaunch'
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:49:46 -0800
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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How do I fool an app into thinking it was autolaunched (ie so it will hide
itself on startup)?  I know there is a way but I can't remember/find it.

Not all apps seem to respond to HideOnAutoLaunch dwrite, evne if they are
autolaunched.

If I have the source code, can I add this functionality easily?  (if so,
how??)

Thanks again
TjL


-- 
TjL      http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/ 
"Give a man a piece of working code and you solve his problem.
 Teach a man to write code and you give him a 
 lifetime of new problems"	-- me
 
 




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From: Hkan Jonsson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Q: PS drawing performance (newbie question)
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 09:11:19 +0100
Organization: Volvo Truck Corporation
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Hi!

I am trying to set individual points in a subclass of View using the PS 
operator PSrectfill. However, this is extremely slow.

Is it the rectfill operator that is slow or am I doing some conceptual 
error?

I could not find any operator for setting individual points, so I am not 
sure how this is usually done. Perhaps PSmoveto(x,y),PSlineto(x,y)?

Any other tips on improving drawing performance?

Perhaps these pixelwise manipulations are better done using something 
else than PS?

/Hakan
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From: Steve 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.apple2.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Hex Calculator
Date: 3 Apr 1997 01:58:01 -0700
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marcelor@acs.bu.edu wrote:
> 
> In , jake@timewarp.net (Jake Luck) writes:
> >Hi,
> >   I am in search for a  hex-dec-oct-bin conversion ONLY
> >calculator(hardware). (the conversion features in the CASIOs
> >are nice but are really cumbersome to use, and those nifty
> >software version just dont quite cut it). If anyone outta there
> >knows some company who sells such a thing, would you please
> >email me? Thanks much in advance.
> >
> >-Jake 
> 


If you dont' care to spend a lot of money, the TI-35 does conversions
fairly easily.  Also has some other nice features, and it is easy to
find and less than $20
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From: mshores@iastate.edu (Matt Shores)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Driver Kit Question
Date: 3 Apr 1997 08:02:52 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa USA
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Summary: Question concerning driver kit and drivers...
Keywords: drivers driver kit
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Hello all,
	I have a question for the experts:  I am trying to write a
device driver (using the Driver Kit) that will utilize the Connectix
QuickCam.  There is some nice code already out there for Linux.  Porting
the code is no problem, however, there are some functions that cause my
entire system to crash.  In fact, most of the time I do not even get the
panic window.  I read somewhere that power-management can get in the way
of paralell port drivers, and I DO see my power light flashing when a 
crash happens (I don't know if that means the power saving is on or
not), does anyone know if there is a strange problem with this
particular device and NeXTSTEP?  Also, when I DO get a panic window,
it names some frames with "arguments" (I assume the functions that are
on those addresses and their parameters) and then it says "Arithmetic
Exception (3, 0, 0)".  Is this a normal programming error?  I have check
all of the divisions.  I believe the problem code comes down to this:
...
	qc_command(CMD_SetBrightness);
	qc_command(thisCam->brightness);

	val = thisCam->height;	// or = thisCam->transfer_scale;
	qc_command(CMD_SetNumV);
	qc_command(thisCam->height);

	if ((thisCam->port_mode & QC_MODE_MASK) == QC_UNIDIR &&
thisCam->bpp == 6) {
		val = thisCam->width;
		val2 = thisCam->transfer_scale * 4;
	}

	else {
		val = thisCam->width * thisCam->bpp;
		val2 = (((thisCam->port_mode & QC_MODE_MASK) ==
QC_BIDIR) ? 24 : 8) * thisCam->transfer_scale;
	}

	// UPDATE:
	if (val2)
		val = (val + val2 - 1) / val2;
	else
		IOLog("QuickCam: db0 - val2\n");

	// UPDATE:
	if (thisCam->transfer_scale)
		val = thisCam->width / thisCam->transfer_scale / 2;
	else
		IOLog("QuickCam: db0 - thisCam->transfer_scale\n");
	//qc_command(CMD_SetNumH);
	qc_command(val);

	qc_command(CMD_SetNumH);
	qc_command(thisCam->width / 2);

	qc_command(CMD_SetTop);
	qc_command(thisCam->top);
	qc_command(CMD_SetLeft);
	qc_command(thisCam->left / 2);

	if (thisCam->cam_version == BW_QUICKCAM) {
		qc_command(CMD_BW_Contrast);
		qc_command(thisCam->contrast);
		qc_command(CMD_BW_SetOffset);
		qc_command(thisCam->whitebal);
	}

	else if (thisCam->cam_version == COLOR_QUICKCAM) {
		qc_command(CMD_COLOR_SetSpeed);
		qc_command(thisCam->speed);
		qc_command(CMD_COLOR_SetHue);
		qc_command(thisCam->hue);
		qc_command(CMD_COLOR_SetSaturation);
		qc_command(thisCam->saturation);
		qc_command(CMD_COLOR_SetContrast);
		qc_command(thisCam->contrast);
		qc_command(CMD_COLOR_SetWhite);
		qc_command(thisCam->whitebal);
	}

	else
		IOLog("QuickCam: (qc_set) Unknown QuickCam Version!\n");
...

You get the idea... it occurs somewhere in there.  I have no way of 
really debugging the program (I cannot see any debug messages because
the kernel version of printf will only print to the console, and IOLog
goes to the file /adm/messages, which is no good when one crashes).  Can
anyone help me at all?  I am tired of not being able to find out what
the heck is wrong!!

Matt



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From: Malcolm Crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Q: PS drawing performance (newbie question)
Date: 3 Apr 1997 09:17:50 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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On 04/03/97, Hkan Jonsson wrote:
>I am trying to set individual points in a subclass of View using the PS 
>operator PSrectfill. However, this is extremely slow.
>
>Is it the rectfill operator that is slow or am I doing some conceptual 
>error?
>
>I could not find any operator for setting individual points, so I am not 
>sure how this is usually done. Perhaps PSmoveto(x,y),PSlineto(x,y)?
>
I'm not quite sure what you mena by "setting individual points" -- could 
you elaborate?

>Any other tips on improving drawing performance?
>
The best reference is probably the Adobe Purple Book "Programming Display 
PostScript with NeXTstep" (ISBN 0-201-58135-3); one of the recommended tips 
is to use user paths.  If you are able to draw a large number of objects in 
one go then you can combine them into one big call to the windowserver, 
which is very eficient.  I used this to draw around 17,000 rectangles in 
one app -- on a 25MHz NeXTstation it took a second or two.

You should also consider using an offscreen buffer if you are not already.

>Perhaps these pixelwise manipulations are better done using something 
>else than PS?
>
If *all* you are doing is manipulating pixels you could draw direct to an 
NXImage and blit that across.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

-- 
Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: SEL and all that (Re: Objective C?)
Date: Thu,  3 Apr 1997 01:05:39 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 33
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 2-Apr-97 Re: SEL and all
that (Re: O.. by Pieter Schoenmakers@es.e 
>    However, I'm of the opinion that having the mapping of method names to
>    selectors be 1-to-1 is (at least, sometimes) a useful invariant, and I
>    wonder why the GNU runtime didn't want to guarantee this.
>  
> When doing dynamic loading, with a possibly changing main program, the
> invariant breaks unless your dynamic linker (and object file format) can
> do some extra wizardry.  This is _probably_ why NeXT's object file format
> has all these objective-c specific segments.

That makes a lot of since.

However, while the multi-segement and -section aspects of the Mach-O
executable format are convenient, you could always place additional info
for the Obj-C runtime within the traditional "initialized data" segment
and refer to it using a symbol name that the dynamic linker (and Obj-C
runtime, etc) pays attention to.

>    You _can_ use any of the multiple SEL values and the GNU runtime will
>    find the same function implementation within objc_msgSend, right...?
>  
> Of course: It's not SEL that counts, but *SEL.

Okay, thanks-- just wanted to be sure.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep NT dev tools (bugs ?)
Date: 2 Apr 1997 16:01:50 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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On 04/01/97, Erik M. Buck wrote:
>I am having trouble with the Windows NT Openstep 4.1 dev tools.
>
>First: (Symbols defined in subprojects do not get exported from DLLs)
>A NextAnswer provided a makefile-patch that supposedly fixed this.  
>Unfortunately, the makefile patch is also broken.  It is not even 
correct 
>make syntax.  Has anyone resolved this ?  Could you help me fix it ?
>
>Second: (Debugging frameworks is very very hard)
>NextAnswers suggests specifying a fixed location for the framework 
DLL in 
>order to facilitate debugging.  This is not working for us.  Has 
anyone 
>resolved this.

Well, if you'll have no reallocations due to collisions and put 
non-striped version of .dll debuging ain't a problem if one could say 
that using NT ain't a problem in the 1st place.

As far as subproject problem we have our own script to generate 
exports, but it doesn't work 100%, so if you'll find a solution, 
please let me know.

Regards,
Aleksey
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From: tiggr@es.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: SEL and all that (Re: Objective C?)
Followup-To: comp.lang.objective-c
Date: 03 Apr 1997 12:54:51 +0200
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology
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In article  Charles William Swiger  writes:

   That makes a lot of since.

A lot of what?

   However, while the multi-segement and -section aspects of the Mach-O
   executable format are convenient, you could always place additional info
   for the Obj-C runtime within the traditional "initialized data" segment
   and refer to it using a symbol name that the dynamic linker (and Obj-C
   runtime, etc) pays attention to.

Not if you want to maintain the invariant in the context of dynamic
loading with independently changing main program and loaded code: The
loaded code must provide a definition of every selector is uses, both in
method definitions and method invocations, but a definition in the main
program overrides a definition by the loaded code; every reference to the
loaded code's version must be replaced by a reference to the definition by
the main program.  Thus: if you want to maintain the invariant you need
wizardry in your dynamic linker and file format.  --Tiggr
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: new Ping.app: hitting 'Return' doesn't work after 'choose host'
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:47:33 -0800
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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This may be a simple Q, but I don't have any idea.

The 'choose host' panel now works in Ping.app, thanks to a member of this
group.  However, after you choose a host with the panel, you cannot hit
'Return' to have ping-ing start.  It does work if you enter the host some
other way.

Anyone know of a fix?

Thanks

TjL


-- 
TjL      http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/ 
"Give a man a piece of working code and you solve his problem.
 Teach a man to write code and you give him a 
 lifetime of new problems"	-- me
 
 



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From: cb@guinan.mm.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 3 Apr 1997 10:45:21 GMT
Organization: I need to put my ORGANIZATION here.
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In article ,
Mark Eaton  wrote:
 >In article , cb@guinan.mm.se (Christian
 >Brunschen) wrote:
 >
 > > In article , 
 > > Mark Eaton wrote:
 > >
 > > >in C++ it's
 > > >perfectly valid to give structs methods, including constructors, and to
 > > >use them as base classes:
 > > >
 > > 
 > > Um, that is because in C++, a 'struct' is in fact a _class_, with the
 > > default protection level of 'public' for its member. If you read a C++
 > > reference, you will find that
 > > 
 > > struct x {
 > >   ...
 > > };
 > > 
 > > is identically equivalent, and in fact synonymous, to
 > > 
 > > class x {
 > > public:
 > >   ...
 > > };
 > > 
 >
 >...with the further restriction that no access levels other than public are
 >supported for structs, and that a struct cannot have virtual methods. Whats
 >your point?

Um, false. The _only_ difference between 'class' and 'struct' is the default
protection for members. Thus, my statement above is entirely correct, and
the 'class x' and 'struct x' definitions are synonymous.

My point is, that your statement which is quoted above and again here:

 > > >in C++ it's
 > > >perfectly valid to give structs methods, including constructors, and to
 > > >use them as base classes:

could lead people without C++ experience to beleive that a 'struct' is in
some way distinct from a 'class', offering some sort of more 'light-weight'
objects, which have less overhead than a 'class' declaration. Thus my
explanation that 'struct' and 'class' are in fact equivalent.


>
>-- 
>Mark Eaton
>Apple Computer

// Christian Brunschen

-- 
--
Christian Brunschen                                                    cb@mm.se
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 2 Apr 1997 17:46:38 GMT
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On 04/01/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
>In article <5hrt9h$6s2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
>(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
>
>> That may be true in C++ because the vptr changes as each constructor 
>> is called in sequence.  Thus, the effictive class of the object can 
>> change during instantiation. This is why you can't really use any 
>> polymorphic init code in C++ until AFTER the constructor.
>> 
>> In Objective C, an object's isa pointer is set up _once_ by the 
>> +alloc routine in NSObject.  Thus, it is safe to call init routines 
>> that may be overridden by a subclass.  There are examples of this 
>> sort of thing in the Objective C manual from NeXT.  Maybe you should
>> read it sometime.
>
>How can it be safe to call a virtual function in a init method? If the
>first thing the init method does is call it's parent's init method 
>you'll wind up calling a function for an object that isn't fully 
>inited. On the other hand, if the init method first initializes itself 
>and then calls the parent classes init method the parent class can 
>change your custom initializations which is certainly not the way 
>subclassing is supposed to work.

The deal is that the init methods themselves are all virtual, hence you
can add functionality to an existing init method.  This is far more 
useful when you have class objects because you can pass a class object 
to some already existing library code (either to a function or more 
commonly to another class) that will then ask the class to instantiate 
a bunch of instances of the class you passed in.   The library code 
will have some code in it like:

	newThing = [[thingClass alloc] initThingFromFile:file];

Now what you can do in your subclass of Thing is override 
initThingFromFile: to do something interesting above and beyond what 
the standard version does.  For example, you could take the file 
argument, treat it as a URL, fetch some data off of a server, then 
write that data to a local file and then call the superclass 
initThingFromFile: with the local filename.  Or, you could simply
call the superclass method right away and then do something like spell 
check the object (if Thing is some kind of text object) before 
returning it to the library.

For another (better?) explanation of this, read the NeXT Objective C 
documentation about initialization.  The URL you should look at is:

http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/OPENSTEP/ObjectiveC/runtime.htm#926

That section walks you through a relatively simple example that 
demonstrates that not only is it safe, but that it is also very useful.
I do wish that their example was a bit more concrete, though.  In any 
case, if I can think of a better concrete example I'll try to write 
something up.

-Ken

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From: Dave Coyle 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: projectServer.exe
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 17:57:52 +0200
Organization: CTP
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Hi all!

Could someone please tell me what projectServer.exe does?

And while you're at it, tell me why it consumes 97% of my CPU, even when
ProjectBuilder is no longer running? (!!)

thanks in advance!

FYI I'm using OStep on NT...(if you haven't guessed that)

Dave

Dave_coyle@ctp.com
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu,  3 Apr 1997 09:51:49 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 2-Apr-97 Re: Objective C?
by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com 
> Derived object = new Derived;
> object->Init();
>  
> With C++ this will result in a crash because Base::Init is calling a
> virtual function before the object is fully constructed. This, of course,
> is the reason you can't call a virtual function in a constructor
> polymorphicly.

Obj-C does not have that limitation because all of the Obj-C method
information (equivalent to C++ virtual functions) is stored with the
class or "factory" object, and not with instantiations (or instances) of
that class.

> From what everyone has said this sort of thing will also
> cause a crash in Objective-C. Is this really true?

No, it's not true.  Furthermore, I highly doubt anyone familiar with
Obj-C would have said that.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: SEL and all that (Re: Objective C?)
Date: Thu,  3 Apr 1997 10:30:19 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 3-Apr-97 Re: SEL and all
that (Re: O.. by Pieter Schoenmakers@es.e 
>    That makes a lot of since.
>  
> A lot of what?

Sorry-- "sense".

>    However, while the multi-segement and -section aspects of the Mach-O
>    executable format are convenient, you could always place additional info
>    for the Obj-C runtime within the traditional "initialized data" segment
>    and refer to it using a symbol name that the dynamic linker (and Obj-C
>    runtime, etc) pays attention to.
>  
> Not if you want to maintain the invariant in the context of dynamic
> loading with independently changing main program and loaded code: The
> loaded code must provide a definition of every selector is uses, both in
> method definitions and method invocations, but a definition in the main
> program overrides a definition by the loaded code; every reference to the
> loaded code's version must be replaced by a reference to the definition by
> the main program.

I agree with you so far.

>  Thus: if you want to maintain the invariant you need
> wizardry in your dynamic linker and file format.

If by "wizardry" this means that you do the above, okay-- yes.  It
requires the dynamic linker to integrate the currently valid selectors
with the ones being dynamicly loaded.

If by "wizardry", you mean you need to extend the a.out format (or
whatever executable format model you like) with additional sections,
then I disagree.  The file format is not especially relevant to whether
you maintain the (proposed) invariant for selectors being unique.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 2 Apr 1997 20:30:20 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Richard Cave  wrote:
> I know it sounds sick, but that's how it works.  The init method _is_
> the constructor.  The alloc method gives you back essentially
> uninitialized memory.  The purpose of the init method is to give some
> initial state to the object.  

This is correct.

> Much of what the ObjectiveC proponents
> claim is the language is actually a tradition of conventions handed down
> by word of mouth from generation to generation. 

This is a rant. The alloc/init combination has been around since the
beginnings of the language, long before NeXT or .next.advocacy.

+ alloc and - init are just methods. Like any other method in ObjC,
you can forward it to super, which is how ObjC implements inheritance.

Treating a constructor differently from other methods is ridiculous
for a true object oriented language like ObjC. To get a new instance
of an object, you send a message to a class - which is also an object.
"alloc" means allocate and "init" means initialize. You give the
instance user the option of initializing the object in different ways.
Aren't more flexible objects a good thing? I think so. 

> I think the convention
> in this case is to call super init first, then carry on with your
> method.  FWIW, Java has some of the same "conventions".  You're right
> that calling a virtual method in this environment is full of danger,
> don't try an invariant in an init method.

Full of danger, indeed, for those unwilling to grasp the most basic
of programming concepts. I suppose the language should prevent you
from using unmalloc'd pointers, too? Wait, let's add in array size
checking while we're at it.

The flexibility is there for those who want to use it. If you're
afraid of it, stay away. Maybe you should all be Pascal advocates.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: e9226558@stud1.tuwien.ac.at (Johannes Friedrich Thoma)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: forwarding and  "super"
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
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Michael (michael@lanczos.cer.neu.edu) wrote:


: NeXT manual "Object - Oriented Programming and Objective C Language" is 
: very good.  Kudos to NeXT for producing high-quality docs (why there
:  aren't author's name on in, BTW ?) I have a question, though.

: Manual gives the following example of over-riding  respondsToSelector method
: to account for forwarding:

: - (BOOL) respondsToSelector: (SEL)aSelector
: {
: 	if([super respondsToSelector:aSelector])
: 		return YES;
: 	else {
: 		/* test whether message can be forwarded */
: 	}
: 	return NO;
: }

:  It seems to me, that this method would return NO, if
:  aSelector specifies method that is not defined either in
:  superclass of a current class or in object it forwards to, but
:  which is defined in the current class. Manual says that
:  super starts searching for the method in the class 1 level
:  higher in the hierarchy. That seems to tell to me, that it won't find
:  methods of the current class.

Right. But NSObjects - respondsToSelector method searches from the
bottommost class again. So, even methods defined in any subclass will be
found. 
	joe. 



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From: Dave Anderson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 12:52:15 -0500
Organization: LEXIS-NEXIS, Dayton OH
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Don Yacktman wrote:
> 
> David Young  wrote:
> > This is a rant. The alloc/init combination has been around since the
> > beginnings of the language, long before NeXT or .next.advocacy.
> 
> Ummm, actually NeXT, with NEXTSTEP 2.0, began the alloc/init thing.
> Before then it was +new for everything.

Wow. flashbacks. I think this even survives in a few places.

> I personally prefer the alloc/init way of doing things, though.
> It makes a *lot* more sense, once you truly understand it.

I agree, Don. It's really useful when you have one workhorse init and
a bunch of lesser inits that build some arguments first and then call
it. It just makes sense to ask the class for an instance (alloc), and
then initialize it in whatever way is appropriate. Ever put an init in
a category contained in a file you ship separately? A great way to
progressively release features...

- Dave (by day, dja3@lexis-nexis.com -- by night, monkey@one.net)
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From: Konstantin Wiesel 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rejoice! BSD 4.4 is coming
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 1997 22:39:09 +0000
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On 28 Mar 1997, John Kheit wrote:

> hans@icgned.nl wrote:
> > In NeXTstep 4.x, the partition limit is 4 gig.
> 
> Huh?!?  Since when?  Can anyone confirm this?

OS4.1 Intel did split our 3GB drive into two partitions so
i would say there still exists the 2GB limit.

Regards
Konstantin Wiesel
Email:kwiesel@mailhost.jura.uni-bonn.de


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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 3 Apr 1997 18:22:17 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> Evidently Richard and I haven't been clear enough in communicating the
> problem. Perhaps an example will help. (I'll do this in C++ since I don't
> know Objective-C well enough).

[snip]

I see what you're saying; you're saying if [self foo] is called from
- init and I override - foo to make use of some variable that's initialized
after [super init], and init calls foo, yes your program will crash.

This is what I commonly refer to as a bug. This would be a problem in
any language that's bound the same way ObjC (and Java) are bound. 

This hadn't even occured to me before, since I'd never even think
of doing this. Oh well. There's nothing that stops you from doing

mdata = malloc(sizeof(long));
[super init];

> No need for (attempted) slurs; we're just trying to further our
> understanding of Objective-C. 

Referring to a language's concepts as "handed down by word of mouth"
isn't trying to further one's understanding.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 3 Apr 1997 18:30:30 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Charles William Swiger  wrote:
> Obj-C does not have that limitation because all of the Obj-C method
> information (equivalent to C++ virtual functions) is stored with the
> class or "factory" object, and not with instantiations (or instances) of
> that class.

Yeah, but isn't he writing to an unitialized pointer anyway?
When init calls foo, and you've overridden foo, he deferences his
pointer which isn't yet initialized and assigns a value to it. He's
not going to trash the method table, but he'll trash something.

Maybe I just misread that awful C++ syntax. Whatever.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 3 Apr 1997 18:44:42 GMT
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On 04/02/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
>In article <5hufks$pip$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young  
wrote:
>
>> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Richard Cave  
wrote:
>> > I know it sounds sick, but that's how it works.  The init method 
_is_
>> > the constructor.  The alloc method gives you back essentially
>> > uninitialized memory.  The purpose of the init method is to give 
some
>> > initial state to the object.  
>
>[snip]
>
>> + alloc and - init are just methods. Like any other method in ObjC,
>> you can forward it to super, which is how ObjC implements 
inheritance.
>> 
>> Treating a constructor differently from other methods is ridiculous
>> for a true object oriented language like ObjC. To get a new instance
>> of an object, you send a message to a class - which is also an 
object.
>> "alloc" means allocate and "init" means initialize. You give the
>> instance user the option of initializing the object in different 
ways.
>> Aren't more flexible objects a good thing? I think so. 
>
>Evidently Richard and I haven't been clear enough in communicating the
>problem. Perhaps an example will help. (I'll do this in C++ since I 
don't
>know Objective-C well enough).
>
>class Base {
>
>public:
>//   Base();
>       // No ctor since we're using Obj-C style initialization.
>
>   virtual void Init()                {Foo();}
>
>   virtual void Foo()     {}
>};
>
>class Derived : public Base {
>
>   typedef Base Inherited;
>
>public:
> //   Derived();
>       // No ctor since we're using Obj-C style initialization.
>
>  virtual void Init()     {Inherited::Init(); mData = new long;}
>
>   virtual void Foo()     {*mData = 100;}
>
>protected:
>   long* mData;
>};
>
>Derived object = new Derived;
>object->Init();
>
>With C++ this will result in a crash because Base::Init is calling a
>virtual function before the object is fully constructed. This, of 
course,
>is the reason you can't call a virtual function in a constructor
>polymorphicly. From what everyone has said this sort of thing will 
>also cause a crash in Objective-C. Is this really true?

That exact code if directly translated to Objective C would cause a 
crash.  That's because it has a bug in the derived Init() routine.  
Code it like this instead:

  virtual void Init()     {mData = new long; Inherited::Init();}

There is no reason why the first thing you do in your derived Init() 
function has to be a call to the base Init().  However, in C++ you do 
not have that kind of control with constructors, so it would be a 
problem if virtual member functions were allowed.  This may explain the 
confusion as to why it's safe in Objective C and not in C++.  

However, must init code in Objective C (that I have seen, anyway), 
does't invoke any non-initialization code during init.  If anything, 
the -init method will simply call the most general -initXX:XX: routine 
with default parameters. This still leaves you with the flexibility you 
need in order to override various stages of object initialization.

-Ken


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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 2 Apr 1997 21:04:13 GMT
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David Young  wrote:
> This is a rant. The alloc/init combination has been around since the
> beginnings of the language, long before NeXT or .next.advocacy.

Ummm, actually NeXT, with NEXTSTEP 2.0, began the alloc/init thing.  Before 
then it was +new for everything.

I personally prefer the alloc/init way of doing things, though.  It makes a 
*lot* more sense, once you truly understand it.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov)
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Subject: Re: Openstep NT dev tools (bugs ?)
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On 04/03/97, Mr. Jeremy Bettis wrote:
>embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) writes:
>Also you can't set break points until the library is loaded, but you
>can break in main() and then set your break points or use the 
future-break
>gdb command (in 4.2 prerelease only).

Could someone confirm/deny that OpenStep Mach 4.1 gdb support 
future-break as well? I forgot when was the last time I was lucky 
enough for debuger to start under Mach and I bet I used future-breaks, 
but they are definitely doesn't recognised by gdb on OpenStep NT 4.1. 
Was it a dream or what?

>That is life.  I do all my development under Windows NT now, so that 
I 
>don't have any suprises like this.  Mach is more tolerant of things.

Not that I admire NT, rather the opposite, but sometimes OpenStep NT 
is better then OpenStep Mach. Take multithreaded app debuging for 
instance. Under NT you could actually collect more information then 
under Mach...

Aleksey

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From: Richard Cave 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 11:27:19 -0800
Organization: Claris
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Jesse Jones wrote:
> 
> In article <5hrt9h$6s2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
> (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
> 
> > That may be true in C++ because the vptr changes as each constructor is
> > called in sequence.  Thus, the effictive class of the object can change
> > during instantiation. This is why you can't really use any polymorphic
> > init code in C++ until AFTER the constructor.
> >
> > In Objective C, an object's isa pointer is set up _once_ by the +alloc
> > routine in NSObject.  Thus, it is safe to call init routines that may
> > be overridden by a subclass.  There are examples of this sort of thing
> > in the Objective C manual from NeXT.  Maybe you should read it
> > sometime.
> 
> How can it be safe to call a virtual function in a init method? If the
> first thing the init method does is call it's parent's init method you'll
> wind up calling a function for an object that isn't fully inited. On the
> other hand, if the init method first initializes itself and then calls the
> parent classes init method the parent class can change your custom
> initializations which is certainly not the way subclassing is supposed to
> work.
> 
>   --Jesse

I know it sounds sick, but that's how it works.  The init method _is_
the constructor.  The alloc method gives you back essentially
uninitialized memory.  The purpose of the init method is to give some
initial state to the object.  Much of what the ObjectiveC proponents
claim is the language is actually a tradition of conventions handed down
by word of mouth from generation to generation.  I think the convention
in this case is to call super init first, then carry on with your
method.  FWIW, Java has some of the same "conventions".  You're right
that calling a virtual method in this environment is full of danger,
don't try an invariant in an init method.

Richard Cave
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From: marke@apple.com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 13:39:25 -0800
Organization: Apple Computer
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In article , cb@guinan.mm.se (Christian
Brunschen) wrote:

> In article , 
> Mark Eaton wrote:
> 
> >in C++ it's
> >perfectly valid to give structs methods, including constructors, and to
> >use them as base classes:
> >
> 
> Um, that is because in C++, a 'struct' is in fact a _class_, with the
> default protection level of 'public' for its member. If you read a C++
> reference, you will find that
> 
> struct x {
>   ...
> };
> 
> is identically equivalent, and in fact synonymous, to
> 
> class x {
> public:
>   ...
> };
> 

...with the further restriction that no access levels other than public are
supported for structs, and that a struct cannot have virtual methods. Whats
your point?

-- 
Mark Eaton
Apple Computer
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From: zizi zhao 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: how to debug mouse-moving
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 17:30:16 -0500
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
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the subject is my question. 

i want to run gdb to see what is going on with my mouse-moving event
in a view frame step by step. but, the mouse has to leave the frame 
to click the  button on the [gdb panel]. 

is it possible to debug mouse-moving in NEXTSTEP 3.3?

Thanks,

ZiZi
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From: wellman@students.uiuc.edu (Dan Wellman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Simple String/Text Question
Date: 3 Apr 1997 23:21:23 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
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Hello folks, I'm just getting into working with OpenStep and Objective C 
and I have a question about text output.

In my program I would like to have a "console" window which contains 
a Scrollable Text window, and I'd like my application to generate text
strings to send to this window.  These strings would be compromised of
static text and a variable or two, i.e. "Cost: $32.98"

This all is fairly straightforward in C -- printf would be one choice.
However, now it looks like I need to create an NSString Object or some 
other messy process of allocation of an object, then pass that object to
the TextField?  (with message of some sort?)

1) What type of object am I looking to use here - right now I'm using the
   object from the Text Palette in IB with the scroll bar on the left.

2) What's a simple and quick way to simply pass a custom made string
   (i.e. includes static text and variables, i.e. floats, etc.)
   to be displayed by the text object from #1)?

Many thanks for your help.  It's funny how printing things out to a windowed
environment becomes a much different task than using good old printf() to a 
text-based one. :)

Thanks in advance,

Dan
-- 
  Dan Wellman  <>  wellman@uiuc.edu  <>  http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~wellman/
     "A million thoughts in one night can't be wrong" - Cause & Effect
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From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep NT dev tools (bugs ?)
Date: 3 Apr 1997 15:14:02 -0600
Organization: Internet Nebraska
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embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) writes:
>Second: (Debugging frameworks is very very hard)
>NextAnswers suggests specifying a fixed location for the framework DLL in 
>order to facilitate debugging.  This is not working for us.  Has anyone 
>resolved this.

Works for me.  add -base 0x1650000 or something to the link line and it debugs
like a charm, you have to be sure that you are using an unstripped dll of
course. Also you can't set break points until the library is loaded, but you
can break in main() and then set your break points or use the future-break
gdb command (in 4.2 prerelease only).

>Third:  (the second problem wouldn't be)
>The second problem wouldn't be a problem if Openstep 4.1 NT worked like 
>Openstep 4.1 Mach.  I have a large Openstep project converted from a 3.3 
>project.  It compiles without warnings and works fine under Openstep 4.1 
>Mach.  I have to re-arrange the code (no subprojects) under NT to compile at 
>all, and then I get warnings (mostly about NSString) that I don't get under 
>Mach.  Finally, when I run the App under NT, I get  segmentation violations.  
>The faults always occur in the same places, but I can not debug them (See 
>second) and there is no problem on Mach.
That is life.  I do all my development under Windows NT now, so that I 
don't have any suprises like this.  Mach is more tolerant of things.

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From: az736@freenet.uchsc.edu (Marvin L. Jones)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: A Y2K Solution So Simple That Even a Child Can Do It
Followup-To: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Date: 2 Apr 1997 18:52:09 GMT
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Dash Langan (dashlangan@hotmail.com) wrote:

---snip---

: --
: Keep India in mind - where super children grow up to be super
: programmers.

Unless they are unfortunate enough to be girls -- where they
risk being killed by their 'arranged' husbands for their dowry.

--
Jonesy
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From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs
Subject: Bugs in NeXTstep's SCSI support? (12 byte scsi reads failing with I/O error)
Date: 3 Apr 1997 04:11:40 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
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In my never-ending quest to improve OmniCD (ok, ok, you'll get an
updated beta very soon), I'm running into a problem with 12-byte SCSI
reads. Interestingly, it works on black hardware, but not on white.
(I've been unable to test green or yellow due to certain circumstances.)

The problem hits me when trying to read CDDA data from cdrom drives.
Many drives, such as Sony & Plextor, use a 12-byte command to read the
data - this works fine on black but fails with an I/O error on white.
Other drives, such as Toshiba, use a 10-byte command to read CDDA data
- this works fine on all platforms.

Anyone know anything about this? Any workaround ideas? (It's not a
byte-ordering issue - I've checked that meticulously and had someone
sanity check my checks.) For what it's worth, this is a 3.3 app. I
haven't had the opportunity to try on 4.x, though my immediate thought
is that this stuff is the same, considering that we're talking about
ioctls. 

-- 
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com  -  NeXTmail & MIME ok
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 20:40:49 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article ,
marke@apple.com (Mark Eaton) wrote:

> ...with the further restriction that no access levels other than public are
> supported for structs, and that a struct cannot have virtual methods. Whats
> your point?

The original poster was correct: the only difference between a class and a
struct is the default access level.

  --Jesse
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From: marcel@sysyem.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Bugs in NeXTstep's SCSI support? (12 byte scsi reads failing with I/O error)
Date: 3 Apr 1997 06:57:21 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <5hvals$rft$2@gaea.omnigroup.com>  
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com writes:

[problems with 12-byte CDBs on NS/White]

> Anyone know anything about this? Any workaround ideas? (It's not a
> byte-ordering issue - I've checked that meticulously and had someone
> sanity check my checks.) For what it's worth, this is a 3.3 app. I
> haven't had the opportunity to try on 4.x, though my immediate thought
> is that this stuff is the same, considering that we're talking about
> ioctls. 

What SCSI adapter are you using?  Back when Intel came out, we had  
problems with 12 byte CDB support simply not being implemented properly  
(or at all) in some drivers.  Adaptec was one of the offenders, DPT was  
fine.  Next said that they'd fixed it, though.

Marcel
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From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:25:54 -0800
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In article <5i01o1$7vt@mn5.swip.net>, cb@guinan.mm.se (Christian
Brunschen) wrote:

>  >...with the further restriction that no access levels other than public are
>  >supported for structs, and that a struct cannot have virtual methods. Whats
>  >your point?
> 
> Um, false. The _only_ difference between 'class' and 'struct' is the default
> protection for members. Thus, my statement above is entirely correct, and
> the 'class x' and 'struct x' definitions are synonymous.

yeah, I was wrong. The ANSI C++ standard treats them exactly the same.
I've used compilers in the past that _didn't_ treat them the same, but
that was awhile ago.

> My point is, that your statement which is quoted above and again here:
> 
>  > > >in C++ it's
>  > > >perfectly valid to give structs methods, including constructors, and to
>  > > >use them as base classes:
> 
> could lead people without C++ experience to beleive that a 'struct' is in
> some way distinct from a 'class', offering some sort of more 'light-weight'
> objects, which have less overhead than a 'class' declaration. Thus my
> explanation that 'struct' and 'class' are in fact equivalent.

My intent was quite the opposite. Some people are claiming that making
trivial data types like Point or Rect classes was somehow inefficient. In
fact, making them a class is no less efficient than making them a struct,
in C++. In other languages, like ObjC, they may be right. 

-Mark

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:23:56 -0700
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In article <5i0sgp$10l$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> > Evidently Richard and I haven't been clear enough in communicating the
> > problem. Perhaps an example will help. (I'll do this in C++ since I don't
> > know Objective-C well enough).
> 
> [snip]
> 
> I see what you're saying; you're saying if [self foo] is called from
> - init and I override - foo to make use of some variable that's initialized
> after [super init], and init calls foo, yes your program will crash.
> 
> This is what I commonly refer to as a bug. This would be a problem in
> any language that's bound the same way ObjC (and Java) are bound. 
> 
> This hadn't even occured to me before, since I'd never even think
> of doing this. 

Seems more like a nasty pitfall in the language to me: I shouldn't have to
dig around in a classes internals to figure out if it's safe to override a
method. The way C++ handles ctors and virtual functions may not be
palatable to some people, but at least the language makes it impossible to
call a method on an object that hasn't been initialized.

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 21:46:30 -0700
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In article <5i0tqq$qcg$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:

> On 04/02/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
> >With C++ this will result in a crash because Base::Init is calling a
> >virtual function before the object is fully constructed. This, of 
> course,
> >is the reason you can't call a virtual function in a constructor
> >polymorphicly. From what everyone has said this sort of thing will 
> >also cause a crash in Objective-C. Is this really true?
> 
> That exact code if directly translated to Objective C would cause a 
> crash.  That's because it has a bug in the derived Init() routine.  
> Code it like this instead:
> 
>   virtual void Init()     {mData = new long; Inherited::Init();}

So now we're back to writing our Init methods in two different ways: the
way recommended by the NeXT Objective-C manual where you initialize the
base class first and the second where you initialize the base class after
doing your own initialization. Of course the only reason you'd use the
second option would be if you knew the internals of the base class and
realized there could be a problem. 

However as we all know relying on the internals of a class is dangerous.
For example, what if the base classes init method changes and now starts
calling methods that are overriden in a derived class? All of a sudden
we're calling methods on an uninitialized object. *This* is the opposite of
OOP: you should be able to change the internals of a base class without
knowing anything about derived classes.

> There is no reason why the first thing you do in your derived Init() 
> function has to be a call to the base Init().  However, in C++ you do 
> not have that kind of control with constructors, so it would be a 
> problem if virtual member functions were allowed.  This may explain the 
> confusion as to why it's safe in Objective C and not in C++.  

It is safe in C++ (provided you use ctors to initialize objects). It is
*not* safe in Objective-C unless you have initimate knowledge of the
classes hierachy now and in the future.

  --Jesse
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 22:15:41 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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In article ,
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:

> In article <5i0sgp$10l$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:
> 
> > I see what you're saying; you're saying if [self foo] is called from
> > - init and I override - foo to make use of some variable that's initialized
> > after [super init], and init calls foo, yes your program will crash.
> > 
> > This is what I commonly refer to as a bug. This would be a problem in
> > any language that's bound the same way ObjC (and Java) are bound. 
> > 
> > This hadn't even occured to me before, since I'd never even think
> > of doing this. 
> 
> Seems more like a nasty pitfall in the language to me: I shouldn't have to
> dig around in a classes internals to figure out if it's safe to override a
> method. The way C++ handles ctors and virtual functions may not be
> palatable to some people, but at least the language makes it impossible to
> call a method on an object that hasn't been initialized.

I don't think that that is exactly fair. 

If you override a virtual method, you have to deal with the fact that it
may get called at times when you don't expect it. 

If you write a class which has member pointers, its your responsibility to
properly manage them. 

If you dereference member pointers from an overriden virt method, its
*your* responsibility to safeguard against an invalid pointer. This is
true in any language, at any time during the object's lifecycle, not just
at init/constructor time.

-Mark

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rejoice! BSD 4.4 is coming
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:47:07 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
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John C. Randolph :

> Well, I just heard it from the fourth source inside NeXT's engineering
> groups, and what I'm hearing is that the BSD code in Rhapsody is
> *finally* getting upgraded to BSD 4.4!
> 
> This means we get: append-only files and filesystems, the LFS, 64-bit
> filesystems (i.e, no more 2 gig partition limit!)

I really hope this is true...

Dirk


-- 
           Site of the Day: http://www.microsnot.com/

    Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany
          http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Buttons...
Date: 4 Apr 1997 06:56:40 GMT
Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc.
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Q:  If you mouse down on a button, but move the mouse off of it (while still 
holding the mouse button down) so that the button raises, and then let go, 
shouldn't the button NOT send a performClick: message?  Isn't this standard 
button behavior?  

I have some buttons that don't perform this way and its bugging me.  When you 
let go of the mouse after moving off of the button, the button sends its 
target its action message anyway.   Visually the button doesn't get pressed 
(its up when you let go of the mouse).  

Anyone have any ideas why my buttons behave the way they do?   BTW, the 
method that gets called when you press of of my buttons starts up a timed 
entry.  Could this have something to do with it?  (Its a NS 3.3 app).

Thanks in advance!

--
Mark Trombino
  mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (NEXTMail, MIME Mail okay)

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From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>  <5i01o1$7vt@mn5.swip.net> 
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 07:02:13 GMT
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In article ,
Mark Eaton  wrote:

>My intent was quite the opposite. Some people are claiming that making
>trivial data types like Point or Rect classes was somehow inefficient. In
>fact, making them a class is no less efficient than making them a struct,
>in C++. In other languages, like ObjC, they may be right. 

	And the nice thing about classes like that is that if you put the 
implementation of their methods inside the class definition, you get 
automatic inlining. Thus here is an implementation of complex numbers as 
a C++ class -- with automatic inlining, there ought to be *no* function 
calls in the compiled version of it, making possible superspeed.


class Complex {
// Nothing needs to be hidden
public:

double Re, Im; // Real and Imaginary Parts

Complex() {Re = Im = 0;} // Blank complex number
Complex(double r) {Re = r; Im = 0;} // Real to complex
Complex(double r, double i) {Re = r; Im = i;} // Two reals to complex
// The default copy constructor and implementation of operator =
// are presumably OK here, as is the default destructor

// Set to real
void operator = (double r) {Re = r; Im = 0;}

Complex &operator +(Complex &z) {
	Complex zres;
	zres.Re = Re + z.Re;
	zres.Im = Im + z.Im;
	return zres;
}

Complex &operator -(Complex &z) {
	Complex zres;
	zres.Re = Re - z.Re;
	zres.Im = Im - z.Im;
	return zres;
}

Complex &operator -() {
	Complex zres;
	zres.Re = - Re;
	zres.Im = - Im;
	return zres;
}

Complex &operator +=(Complex &z) {
	Re += z.Re;
	Im += z.Im;
	return *this;
}

Complex &operator -=(Complex &z) {
	Re -= z.Re;
	Im -= z.Im;
	return *this;
}

Complex &operator *(Complex &z) {
	Complex zres;
	zres.Re = Re*z.Re - Im*z.Im;
	zres.Im = Im*z.Re + Re*z.Im;
	return zres;
}


Complex &operator /(Complex &z) {
	Complex zres;
	// Trick to avoid possible overflows
	double denom;
	if (fabs(z.Re) >= fabs(z.Im)) {
		denom = z.Re + (z.Im*z.Im)/z.Re;
		zres.Re = (Re + Im*z.Im/z.Re)/denom;
		zres.Im = (Im - Re*z.Im/z.Re)/denom;
	} else {
		denom = z.Im + (z.Re*z.Re)/z.Im;
		zres.Re = (Im + Re*z.Re/z.Im)/denom;
		zres.Im = (-Re + Im*z.Re/z.Im)/denom;
	}
	return zres;
}
};

I'm not adding anything on complex versions of various functions, but 
that ought to be easy:

Complex &sin(Complex &z) {
	Complex zres;
	zres.Re = sin(z.Re)*cosh(z.Im);
	zres.Im = cos(z.Re)*sinh(z.Im);
	return zres;
}

Complex &exp(Complex &z) {
	Complex zres;
	zres.Re = exp(z.Re)*cos(z.Im);
	zres.Im = exp(z.Re)*sin(z.Im);
	return zres;
}

etc. (be careful to avoid cancellations, however; square roots can be tricky)
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html


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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 4 Apr 1997 08:09:53 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> Seems more like a nasty pitfall in the language to me: I shouldn't have to
> dig around in a classes internals to figure out if it's safe to override a
> method. The way C++ handles ctors and virtual functions may not be
> palatable to some people, but at least the language makes it impossible to
> call a method on an object that hasn't been initialized.

As someone else posted, you can allocate space before calling [super init].
Of course, you don't know that [super init] calls -foo, right? Well, it
might not be a bad idea to initialize *all* your variables before calling
[super init], especially if you're overriding a method to make use of one
of them. Or, you could break it up if you needed to call some methods
during the initialization. 

Either way, this is a hypothetical example with little bearing on
actual practice; - init generally does not call methods other than
setSomeValue type methods, which one wouldn't override for functionality
anyway. Personally, I'd prefer not to have special rules governing
special methods, and have every method behave in a standard way, rather
than have the language try to isolate me from myself. Bugs I can fix;
the language I cannot.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 4 Apr 1997 08:20:34 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> So now we're back to writing our Init methods in two different ways: the
> way recommended by the NeXT Objective-C manual where you initialize the
> base class first and the second where you initialize the base class after
> doing your own initialization.

- init methods are just methods. You're free to write the any way you
please. Not all of them would neccesarily be good code, but this is
true of any language.

> Of course the only reason you'd use the
> second option would be if you knew the internals of the base class and
> realized there could be a problem. 

Dereferencing and assigning pointers without some kind of sanity
checking is poor practice for any code you ever intend to re-use.

> However as we all know relying on the internals of a class is dangerous.
> For example, what if the base classes init method changes and now starts
> calling methods that are overriden in a derived class? All of a sudden
> we're calling methods on an uninitialized object.

Again, the meaning of - init is "initialize your object", not
"call a shitload of methods in your class". While you can, you're
supposed to be assigning default values.

> *This* is the opposite of
> OOP: you should be able to change the internals of a base class without
> knowing anything about derived classes.

... says the advocate of the language with the biggest base class problem
of all time...

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Buttons...
Date: 4 Apr 1997 08:18:01 GMT
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Reply-To: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
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In article <5i28n8$d72@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  
(Mark Trombino) writes:
> Q:  If you mouse down on a button, but move the mouse off of it (while  
still 
> holding the mouse button down) so that the button raises, and then let  
go, 
> shouldn't the button NOT send a performClick: message?  Isn't this  
standard 
> button behavior?  
> 
> I have some buttons that don't perform this way and its bugging me.   
When you 
> let go of the mouse after moving off of the button, the button sends its 
> target its action message anyway.   Visually the button doesn't get  
pressed 
> (its up when you let go of the mouse).  

> Thanks in advance!
> 
> --
> Mark Trombino
>   mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (NEXTMail, MIME Mail okay)

Hi,

Well, maybe the non-wysiwyg buttons have their continuous attribute set to  
YES ? 

From doc :

setContinuous:

- setContinuous:(BOOL)flag

Sets whether the Control will continuously send its action message to its  
target as the mouse is tracked.  Returns self.

See also:  - setContinuous: (ButtonCell, SliderCell), - sendActionOn:


Laurent.

--
=======================================================
Laurent Champciaux
Departement Informatique - Ecole des Mines de Nantes
4, rue A.Kastler - BP 20722 - 44307 Nantes Cedex 03
Tel: 33 2 51 85 82 18 (B220)	email: Laurent.Champciaux@emn.fr
Fax : 33 2 51 85 82 49
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed,  2 Apr 1997 18:51:23 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 2-Apr-97 Re: Objective
C? by Richard Cave@claris.com 
> I know it sounds sick, but that's how it works.  The init method _is_
> the constructor.  The alloc method gives you back essentially
> uninitialized memory.

Except that the object's isa pointer is initialized to refer to the
class of this particular instantiation.  The rest of the ivars are not
set to any particular state until init is called.

> The purpose of the init method is to give some initial state to the object. 

Correct.

> Much of what the ObjectiveC proponents claim is the language is actually a
> tradition of conventions handed down by word of mouth from generation to
> generation.

False.  Obj-C's alloc/init paradigm is quite thoroughly documented in
the documentation provided with the system.  Those methods, along with
the default root object (Object or NSObject), are as much a part of the
Obj-C language as malloc() and free() are a part of ANSI-C language.

> I think the convention in this case is to call super init first, then carry
> on with your method.

Right-- you generally let each superclass up the hierarchy call its
[super init] until you get to the root class; as you return, each level
usually initalizes whatever instance variables were added for that
particular subclass.

> FWIW, Java has some of the same "conventions".  You're right
> that calling a virtual method in this environment is full of danger,

Pure nonsense.

> don't try an invariant in an init method.

What are you talking about?  After [super init] returns, you can depend
on any invariants created in your superclasses to hold true.  After
you've initialized the current classes' state, you can depend on any
invariants set up at the current level, as well.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu,  3 Apr 1997 11:56:42 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 2-Apr-97 Re: Objective C?
by James M. Curran@CIS.Comp 
>> Wrong.  What happens if I put interesting information into the other
>> ivars that aren't copied by the class designer's implementation of '='? 
>> It's not going to be copied, and I'm not going to get the results I'd
>> expected when calling the sort.
>
>         The ivars that are not copied are implementation details of the base
> class.  Therefore, you, as someone who is not the base class
> implementor, have no knowledge of the existence of those variables.
> Then *HOW* are you going to put something interesting in them?

James, rather than continue a repetition of this same exchange, let's
consider the original problem.  We were talking about sorting an array
or list of objects.

You defined an object which had a key named "realval" and other ivar. 
That was something like char foo[100] or some such, but it could be
anything-- the details don't matter.

The code you've provided does _not_ sort the objects.  It only sorts the
keys-- the realval ivar in each object.  From the context of the
original problem of "sorting an array of objects", we aren't talking
about simply sorting the realvals-- we have to be talking about sorting
objects as a whole, including the other ivars besides realval.

(See the discussion of "state" and "essential state" below.)

Within the context of this comparision of C++ and Obj-C, I'm not
interested in discussing anything but the original problem because I
refuse to deal with the shifting goalpost syndrome.

>         Again you are arguing the point that ObjC is a better OOP language --
> if you plan on violating the rules of OOP.

That is neither what I've said nor true.

This whole exchange, you have tried explicitly to come up with
circumstances where C++ outperforms Obj-C by relying on static binding
which allows inlining of code such as "x = y" being transformed into
"x.realval = y.realval".

My whole point has been that such static binding and inlining violates
true OO programming because it inherently involves a dependancy on the
specific implementation details-- and such code fails to work when
someone who does not verify the implementation of the '=' operator for
your class who tries to sort a bunch of these objects discovers that the
objects themselves have not been sorted-- just the realval ivars.

Not only does your code fail to solve the original problem you yourself
specified, but sorting just the realval ivars and not the entire objects
breaks the encapsulation of the realval ivar (which is the key value
used in the comparisions of the sorting algorithm) with the other ivars
in the objects being sorted.

[ ... ]
>>The user of the class has to be aware (or beware) that this class
>>implements '=' in a way that does not mean "the entire state of this
>>object is assigned".
>  
>  But the entire state of the object *IS* assigned.  As I've said, (over
> & over) in that example, the part not copied IS NOT RELEVANT to the
> state of the class.

James, the "state" of an object is the contents of every ivar.  

The "essential state" is the minimal subset of the total state of an
object (ie, a subset of the ivars) which allows the object to recreate
the state of the rest of the ivars through the use of invariant
relationships between the ivars.

If realval was truly the only essential state (what you call relevant
above), you would still have to recompute the state of the rest of the
ivars in our class after you were finished with the sort, but it would
be a perfectly valid way of solving the original problem.

In which case, I'd invite you to compare the real-world performance of
sorting the objects using such a mechanism to a real-world Obj-C
implementation (which would probably exchanges pointers to the objects
instead of copying their state or recomputing anything).

Perhaps you'll argue: suppose the other ivars really don't matter ever,
and thus you don't have to recompute them, ever-- they were just
padding.  I claim that such an argument explicitly changes the context
and _meaning_ of what the code is doing from "sorting objects" to
"sorting realvals which referenced by pointers".  That's the shifting
goalpost syndrome.

[ ... ]
>> "integrated" == ships with the standard class libraries and can
>> reasonably be expected to be available with the same interface
>> regardless of which platform and C++ compiler you have.
>>  
>> Reference counting is part of the OpenStep spec, and every OpenStep app
>> is free to use reference counting on their objects with garbage
>> collection instead of having to explicitly worry about disposing of the
>> memory used by objects no longer in use.
>  
>         whew!  Had me worried there a minute. That's not how I'd define
> "integrated".   Problem here is that it ships with ONE vendor's class
> library.  Admittedly that one vendor has close to 100% of the market,
> but it's still a technically a proprietary solution.

Completely false.

Reference counting is part of the NeXT/Apple OpenStep implementation. 
It's also a part of Sun's OpenStep implementation.  It's also a part of
the GNUStep implementation which is in the process being written under
the terms of the GPL by yet a third group of people.

OpenStep is not proprietary, and reference counting is available within
several OpenStep implementations (not just one vendor's).

>       Truth,
>       James

I wish you would avoid the hypocracy of associating your name with that virtue.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: "Dale Madill" 
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: A Y2K Solution So Simple That Even a Child Can Do It
Date: 3 Apr 1997 03:24:48 GMT
Organization: MBnet - Manitoba's Connection To The Internet
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Dash Langan  wrote in article
<199704011749.TAA24541@basement.replay.com>...
> The "Open and Shut Window Technique" is so simple a Y2K solution
> that even a child can do it.  (Now, don't get me wrong.  I do not


Dash,
You have got to be the dumbest person I've seen in a long time. Not only do
you get the crap beat out of you by almost everybody in the NG but you keep
coming back for more.

Please stop your ridiculous claims that 98% of programmers do nothing, and
that CIO should fire 50% of their staff so productivity will go up, etc and
attempt to contribute something of value. Your windowing technique is not a
be all end all solution but simply a patch that may work in some
situations. It is not a complete solution, nor will it ever be.

Stop beating the dead horse!

By the way, what do you pay YOUR 10 year old programmers in India Dash?
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From: rsrodger@wam.umd.edu (Rob Rodgers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 3 Apr 1997 13:06:57 -0500
Organization: University of Maryland, College Park
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In article <5i01o1$7vt@mn5.swip.net>,
Christian Brunschen  wrote:
>could lead people without C++ experience to beleive that a 'struct' is in
>some way distinct from a 'class', offering some sort of more 'light-weight'
>objects, which have less overhead than a 'class' declaration. Thus my
>explanation that 'struct' and 'class' are in fact equivalent.

Actually, this is a benefit of Oc (and in fact, just about any language).
Not classes, but the quality of available documentation and the degree to
which widely held beliefs actually match reality (in C/C++, the
correspondence is actually pretty low).

Never has a language been taught and written about as badly as C++, and
this struct vs. class "distinction" which you are trying to dispell is a
perfect example.  

I mean, the "difference" between struct and class (default protection
*only*) is only on the FIRST PARAGRAPH of the FIRST PAGE of the section on
classes in the draft standard.   Yet teachers in CS programs don't know
this, books write that "structs" are "lighter weight" than classes and
treat them as distinct, &c.  

Makes you wonder if the people who teach and write about C++ have ever
even browsed the standard (if so, they'd have noticed that most of the
class examples use the struct keyword, or at least they used to..)

Oh well, I suppose if the "masses" moved to Oc or Lisp we'd see the same
thing..

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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 04 Apr 1997 06:11:46 -0800
Organization: home
Lines: 20
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References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>
	
	<5i01o1$7vt@mn5.swip.net>
	
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In article  markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) writes:

   My intent was quite the opposite. Some people are claiming that making
   trivial data types like Point or Rect classes was somehow inefficient. In
   fact, making them a class is no less efficient than making them a struct,
   in C++.

Method resolution for C++ is not much more efficient than
in other object oriented languages, and as soon as you define
a single virtual function, C++ classes also add a virtual
function table pointer to each instance of the class.

The only reason why it doesn't cost you anything to make a trivial
data type like Point a "class" in C++ is because C++ changes the
meaning of the word "class".  Data types without virtual
functions also exist in ANSI C and Objective-C; they simply
aren't called "classes".

Thomas.

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From: ploeger@pedcard.uni-kiel.de (Andreas Ploeger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Compatibility NXWriteTypes and decodeValuesOfObjCTypes
Date: 4 Apr 1997 14:29:06 GMT
Organization: Rechenzentrum der Universitaet Kiel, Germany
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Hi,

I've got hundreds of files that were written using NXWriteTypes within the 
'write:' method of each class.

Can I change these classes to be subclasses of NsObject instead of Object and 
read the old files using decodeValuesOfObjCTypes? 


--
Dr. Andreas Ploeger                  E-Mail: ploeger@toppoint.de
Kiel University                       Phone: +49 431 597 1757
Clinic for Pediatric Cardiology         FAX: +49 431 597 1745 or 1831
Schwanenweg 20, 24105 Kiel, Germany    *** NeXT & MIME Mail welcome ***

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From: "Michael Allen Latta" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Compatability Question
Date: 4 Apr 1997 14:52:26 GMT
Organization: SuperNet Inc. +1.303.296.8202 Denver Colorado
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Please answer by e-mail.

Do NeXTStep 3.2 binarys run under NT Enterprise?  I expect not but had to
ask.

Are the Lighthouse Design apps being ported to NT?  Their web site no
longer advertises their NS apps after being bought by Sun.

Thanks,
Michael Latta
mlatta@hologisys.com
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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep NT dev tools (bugs ?)
Date: 4 Apr 1997 04:06:09 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
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In <5hs5c1$ss4@castor.cca.rockwell.com> Erik M. Buck wrote:
> I am having trouble with the Windows NT Openstep 4.1 dev tools.

> First: (Symbols defined in subprojects do not get exported from DLLs)
> A NextAnswer provided a makefile-patch that supposedly fixed this.  

We avoided the problem by creating class methods that exported any symbols
from frameworks. (classes and methods are exported, just not other symbols
like functions, and global variables)  In our case, the work around 
made the design a little more OO anyway. 

> I have to re-arrange the code (no subprojects) under NT to compile

That seems strange, I haven't had any problems with subprojects (bundles perhaps,
but not other kinds of subprojects) - and we even got bundles to work on NT.

--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: rraman@site.gmu.edu (Ravishankar Ramanathan (CSI))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Compiling gcc (version 2.7.2) under NS3.3/ Dev3.2
Date: 3 Apr 1997 19:58:05 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
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[ Article crossposted from comp.sys.next.software ]
[ Author was Ravishankar Ramanathan (CSI) ]
[ Posted on 3 Apr 1997 19:47:17 GMT ]

Hello all:

I was trying to get gcc compile under NS 3.3User/ 3.2Dev and am running
into trouble with move-if-change. There is a warning in the makefile about
move-if-change and how it could cause problems in Sun. I looked into the
compiled version of gcc2.7.2.1 available from the next archives - frankly
I have no idea where the directories go :-( I believe some should go into
/usr/bin but I have no way of knowing where all the files should go. (It
would be nice if the author of the precompiled version included a map of
where the binaries should be!) 

Anyways, could some one please tell me if there is a way to compile the
gcc and if I need any additional piece of software to do it. Here is what
I have:

	NeXT Turbo 32MB RAM
	3.3 User w/ 3.2 Developer Installed
	1.1 EOF User/ Developer with all patches installed
	gnu package (from NextCD/gnu in 3.2 developer) installed
	bison 1.25 installed (that went through without a problem!)

Additionally, anyone succeded in compiling mSQL 2.0.B5 on the above
machine? (It quits saying mmap and uint/ uint_32 not present - is there a
place where they can be found?)

Thanks for all the patience...

-Ravi

--
-Ravi
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From: JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 18:47:59 GMT
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In <<0nDgJCG00iWWM1rU50@andrew.cmu.edu>>, 
Charles William Swiger  wrote:

>Wrong.  What happens if I put interesting information into the other
>ivars that aren't copied by the class designer's implementation of '='? 
>It's not going to be copied, and I'm not going to get the results I'd
>expected when calling the sort.
	The ivars that are not copied are implementation details of the base
class.  Therefore, you, as someone who is not the base class
implementor, have no knowledge of the existence of those variables.
Then *HOW* are you going to put something interesting in them?

	Again you are arguing the point that ObjC is a better OOP language --
if you plan on violating the rules of OOP.

>No, it doesn't. The precise example you've provided relies explicitly on
>the class designer making assumptions about what parts of a class (which
>ivars) matter and hence will be copied.

>The user of the class has to be aware (or beware) that this class
>implements '=' in a way that does not mean "the entire state of this
>object is assigned".

	But the entire state of the object *IS* assigned.  As I've said, (over
& over) in that example, the part not copied IS NOT RELEVANT to the
state of the class.   
	Now let us look at you're argument.  You're saying, that if you take
an existing class.  After studying it's implementation to discover an
exist member variable which isn't being fully used, and hijack that
ivar to perform a completely new task --- you are worry that you might
have to also change the assignment operator.  


>>> By the way, what does C++ have in terms of integrated reference counting?
>>  
>>         Define "integrated".  C++ keeps C minimalistic approach, and lets you
>> build whatever you need.  Defining a RefCount base class, and
>> inheriting for that is a trivial matter.

>"integrated" == ships with the standard class libraries and can
>reasonably be expected to be available with the same interface
>regardless of which platform and C++ compiler you have.

>Reference counting is part of the OpenStep spec, and every OpenStep app
>is free to use reference counting on their objects with garbage
>collection instead of having to explicitly worry about disposing of the
>memory used by objects no longer in use.

	whew!  Had me worried there a minute. That's not how I'd define
"integrated".   Problem here is that it ships with ONE vendor's class
library.  Admittedly that one vendor has close to 100% of the market,
but it's still a technically a proprietary solution.

	The draft of the ANSI/ISO C++ standard library included a refernce
counted string class.  I'm not sure if a reference count base class is
defined in it though...

       Truth,
       James

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Checking on an old issue in the newer releases
Date: 2 Apr 1997 15:25:42 GMT
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In <01bc3ec3$9e3eec80$1f6085cc@dialup.hologisys.com> "Michael Allen Latta" 
wrote:
> I have been out of touch with NeXT since 3.2 developer days.  Have they
> fixed the problems related to dynamically loading a NIB file and needing to
> release the objects tonained therein?  I remember great contortions to have
> to release the objects in the NIB.  There was some hope that the reference
> counting of OpenStep would resolve this when the NIB owner was released.
> 
> Please reply by e-mail I am not reading this group on a regular basis.
> 
> Mike Latta
> mlatta@hologisys.com
> 

SAutoreleasePool that leaks 4 bytes.  It may be fixed in 4.2. 

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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 4 Apr 1997 10:37:48 -0500
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Loren Petrich (petrich@netcom.com) wrote in article  

]In article ,
]Mark Eaton  wrote:
]
]>My intent was quite the opposite. Some people are claiming that making
]>trivial data types like Point or Rect classes was somehow inefficient. In
]>fact, making them a class is no less efficient than making them a struct,
]>in C++. In other languages, like ObjC, they may be right. 
]
]	And the nice thing about classes like that is that if you put the 
]implementation of their methods inside the class definition, you get 
]automatic inlining. Thus here is an implementation of complex numbers as 
]a C++ class -- with automatic inlining, there ought to be *no* function 
]calls in the compiled version of it, making possible superspeed.
]
]
]class Complex {
]// Nothing needs to be hidden
]public:
]
]double Re, Im; // Real and Imaginary Parts
]
]Complex() {Re = Im = 0;} // Blank complex number
]Complex(double r) {Re = r; Im = 0;} // Real to complex
]Complex(double r, double i) {Re = r; Im = i;} // Two reals to complex
]// The default copy constructor and implementation of operator =
]// are presumably OK here, as is the default destructor
]
]// Set to real
]void operator = (double r) {Re = r; Im = 0;}
]
]Complex &operator +(Complex &z) {
]... snip


 Umm, just to keep things in perspective - C++ is NOT good language
 for numerical work (well, ObjC may be no better, but you brought 
 numerical stuff up, so...).

 See: S.W.Haney "Is C++ Fast Enough for Scientific Computing ?"
 Computers in Physics, vol.8, no.6, nov/dec 1994

 On complex and matrix operations C++ code is horribly slow compared
 with Fortran and C.


-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: pete@ohm.york.ac.uk (-bat.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Posix support post 4.0
Date: 4 Apr 1997 16:58:13 GMT
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Hmmm, having noticed that things were starting to get removed with the last
few releases of NS - notably the posix support between 3.3 and 4.0 I was
wondering if they have started to creep back in in 4.1 or 4.2. With the
advent of Rhapsody surely the OS should be made more up-to-date and not less ?
I know the posix support was a bit grim - but it was better than nothing
and I find it frustrating to have to still compile new code under 3.3
rather than 4.0 due to this.

any comments ?

-bat.
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From: jobs@globalobjects.com (Jobs)
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Subject: US GA - OO Developer for WWW project
Date: 4 Apr 1997 19:13:50 GMT
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web project. This project is currently being done in WebObjects
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  All work is done on the server side (no cute pages!)
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* 6 months to 1 year of Java building business applications
  (web pages don't count!)
* Exposure to other web development environment such as ColdFusion, etc
* All work MUST be done ONSITE (pls don't ask us about telecommuting)

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All candiates are requested to take our OO quiz at www.globalobjects.com.
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Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 12:51:15 -0600
From: curranj@mskcc.org
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
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In article <5hrt9h$6s2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>,
  kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
>
> On 03/31/97,
> JamesCurran@CIS.CompuServe.com (James M. Curran) wrote:
> >  The downside is that you don't have a constructor .
>
> Right, because they aren't necessary in Objective C, at least not in
> the C++ sense where there is a special language feature required to
> support object instantiation.  Hence, there is no downside.
>
> Actually, C++ pretty much requires constructors, so of course they are
> useful.

  This is nonsense.  C++ does not "require" constructors many more that
ObjC does.  Objects require initialization before that can be used.  C++
builds recognition of this fact into the language, while ObjC does not.


> There is nothing about making method calls during object initialization
> that violates OO design in Objective C, and in fact it's quite common
> to do so.

  I didn't say it did.	I said having a method of a base class depend
upon the actions of a method in a derived class does.

>
> That may be true in C++ because the vptr changes as each constructor is
> called in sequence.  Thus, the effictive class of the object can change
> during instantiation. This is why you can't really use any polymorphic
> init code in C++ until AFTER the constructor.

  No, this is why each class in C++ can have it's own constructor,
allowing each object to be constructed as to it's needs (ie, polymorphic
init code).

>
> In Objective C, an object's isa pointer is set up _once_ by the +alloc
> routine in NSObject.  Thus, it is safe to call init routines that may
> be overridden by a subclass.  There are examples of this sort of thing
> in the Objective C manual from NeXT.  Maybe you should read it
> sometime.

  You seem to be ignoring the point here.  In C++,  I can safely call any
method of an object after it is constructed. In ObjC, you can safely call
any method of an object after it is alloc'ed.  What the hell's the
difference??  How is one any better than the other?  (Other than the
fact, that if I'm careful to avoid a few obscure procedures, I can also
safely call almost any method of an object during it's construction).

> Oh jeeze.  So your best argument against the Objective C object
> instantian mechanism is that it's 'a convention dreamed up by users'?
> Give us a break, please.

  No, my best argument against the Objective C object instantiation
mechanism is that it's error-prone and not orthogonal.

>
> >You want to treat the constructor as if it were just another member
> >function (probably because ObjC's init methods are just like other
> >methods).  But constructors are different, and that's where their
> >power lies.
>
> So what is this 'power' that C++ constructors have over Objective C?
> The way I see it, they are less general and more error prone than
> having a clean, orthogonal method of creating objects.

  You must be joking, right?  Let's say we have a class called "BigNum":

      int   x = 5;             // same C++, ObjC and  C
     long y = 5;

     BigNum z = 5;         // C++
    BigNum w = [BigNum alloc] init:5];    // ObjC
    BigNum v = [BigNum init:5];             // ObjC runtime error.

This shows off one of the tenents of C++, that all objects whether they
are built-in types or user defined classes, should be treated the same. 
ObjC likes making a big deal out of this artifical separation.	Also,
ObjC separates that acts of allocation and initialization, which should
be inseparable. (C++ does allow you to separate them, if you really want
to, but it doesn't make it easy, because separating them shouldn't be
easy).	ObjC makes the user define a new method to keep them together. 
And if you do one without the other, disaster will result.

  Hence, C++ constructors are the actual clean orthogonal method of
creating objects, while Objective C's alloc/init method is the one that's
less general and more error prone.

  To continue on the "orthogonal" angle -- How do you "de-initialization"
something in ObjC?  You have garabage collection, but that assumes that
the only resource any object will ever use is memory.  If you need any
other form of shutdown procedure (closing a file, releasing a semphore),
the user must explictly call a method, and for this, we don't even have a
standard name.	For this, C++ has destructors, which allow us to easily
perform some powerful tasks, like closing a file or releasing a
semiphore.  In fact, if you were to also put the accessing of the
semiphore into the ctor,  the whole process of serializing access on a
multitasking system can be reduced to defining a variable.  For another
example, I've written a class called "FuncTrace" which is used like this:
main() {  FuncTrace  m("Main");  // some stuff	SomeFunc();  // some more
stuff }

SomeFunc()
{
    FuncTrace   sf("SomeFunc");
   // yet more stuff
}
This will print out in my trace log:

--Main started 4-Apr-1997 3:02:25PM
    -- SomeFunc started 4-Apr-1997 3:02:45PM
    -- SomeFunc ended  4-Apr-1997 3:03:10PM  - elapsed 00:00:25
-- Main ended  4-Apr-1997 3:03:20PM  - elapsed 00:00:55

with all the worked handled by the ctor & dtor.  All I have to do use it
is to declare a variable (and I never have to even refer to it again)

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From: brucecra@mindspring.com (Bruce)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Openstep Developer needed in New York City
Date: 4 Apr 1997 20:25:44 GMT
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We are the Premier search and recruiting firm for NeXT Professionals in
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If you have experience developing within the NeXT environment and are
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Please call us at:

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Fax 800-814-3100
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 4 Apr 1997 19:14:24 -0000
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In article <860179413.22852@dejanews.com>, curranj@mskcc.org wrote:

>   No, my best argument against the Objective C object instantiation
> mechanism is that it's error-prone

Funny, I've never made any errors with it.

> and not orthogonal.

How's that?  I think that doing object allocation and instantiation using
the same mechanism as telling any other object to do something, namely
message passing via class and instance methods, is rather orthogonal..
+alloc and -init are methods just like any other operations on objects.
C++ introduces a new mechanism and syntax for this specific purpose.
Though it does have the advantage of looking the same as a primitive
data type assignment.  Obj-C's philosophy is to have only messages act
on objects, and to have only one syntax for message passing.  I call
that orthogonal.

>   You must be joking, right?  Let's say we have a class called "BigNum":

>     int   x = 5;             // same C++, ObjC and  C
>     long  y = 5;

>     BigNum z = 5;         // C++
>     BigNum w = [BigNum alloc] init:5];    // ObjC
>     BigNum v = [BigNum init:5];             // ObjC runtime error.

Slight syntax correction on the last two lines:

      // w and v are dynamically allocated this way, need to be BigNum *
      BigNum* w = [[BigNum alloc] init:5];    // forgot a bracket
      BigNum* v = [BigNum init:5];

You apparently have never actually written a line of working Obj-C code
before.  [BigNum init:5] doesn't generate a runtime error, it generates
a _compile-time_ error..  that code fragment will refuse to compile.

-init: is an instance method, not a class method.  It makes no sense
to try to send it to the BigNum class object.  There is no +init:
class method.  +alloc hands back an instance upon which -init: may act.
Without an instance as the receiver, sending -init: is meaningless and
will be rejected by the compiler.

> This shows off one of the tenents of C++, that all objects whether they
> are built-in types or user defined classes, should be treated the same. 
> ObjC likes making a big deal out of this artifical separation.

I wouldn't call it a "big deal".  You treat primitive C types like
primitive C types, and objects like objects.  I don't see how this is an
artificial separation, since C types are not objects.

> Also, ObjC separates that acts of allocation and initialization, which should
> be inseparable.

I disagree.

> (C++ does allow you to separate them, if you really want
> to, but it doesn't make it easy, because separating them shouldn't be
> easy).	ObjC makes the user define a new method to keep them together. 
> And if you do one without the other, disaster will result.

You may not want to initialize an object immediately after it is
allocated.  I think someone else on this thread posted an example of
when you might want to do that.

> Hence, C++ constructors are the actual clean orthogonal method of
> creating objects, while Objective C's alloc/init method is the one that's
> less general and more error prone.

Yeah, whatever.

>   To continue on the "orthogonal" angle -- How do you "de-initialization"
> something in ObjC?  You have garabage collection,

Actually, Obj-C traditionally hasn't used garbage collection.
OpenStep's NSObject currently uses reference counting.

> but that assumes that
> the only resource any object will ever use is memory.  If you need any
> other form of shutdown procedure (closing a file, releasing a semphore),
> the user must explictly call a method, and for this, we don't even have a
> standard name.

In OpenStep, you override -dealloc to include all that custom stuff.
-dealloc is automatically called called by -release when the reference
count goes to zero.  If you had GC, then -release would get called
automatically too.  Otherwise, you call -release when you're done using
the object.  It will then call -dealloc to perform a shutdown procedure.

.  Really, can't you have a discussion of the tradeoffs between C++
and Objective-C without posting disinformation about the latter?
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From: howlett@netcom.com (Scott Howlett)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
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mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) wrote:

>  On complex and matrix operations C++ code is horribly slow compared
>  with Fortran and C.

Actually, the Blitz++ numerical environment

http://monet.uwaterloo.ca/blitz/

compares quite favorably to FORTRAN and achieves an elegance that C
could not hope to match.

Do not make the mistake of generalizing the results obtained from
one or two particular implementations to say something about the
language itself.

And there is no reason why C++ should ever need to be slower than C. Period.
Statically bound member functions are no different than C function calls,
and if you choose to use virtual functions in speed-critical code, you
should just be smart and only use them in places where you would be using
function pointers in C.

Of course, Evil programmers can cook up a horribly slow implementation
of something in any language.

- Scott

-- 
Scott Howlett, howlett@netcom.com
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them 
down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason."
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep NT dev tools (bugs ?)
Date: 4 Apr 1997 15:32:57 GMT
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zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov) wrote:
> On 04/03/97, Mr. Jeremy Bettis wrote:
> >embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck) writes:
> >Also you can't set break points until the library is loaded, but you
> >can break in main() and then set your break points or use the 
> future-break
> >gdb command (in 4.2 prerelease only).
> 
> Could someone confirm/deny that OpenStep Mach 4.1 gdb support 
> future-break as well? I forgot when was the last time I was lucky 
> enough for debuger to start under Mach and I bet I used future-breaks, 
> but they are definitely doesn't recognised by gdb on OpenStep NT 4.1. 
> Was it a dream or what?
> 
> >That is life.  I do all my development under Windows NT now, so that 
> I 
> >don't have any suprises like this.  Mach is more tolerant of things.
> 
> Not that I admire NT, rather the opposite, but sometimes OpenStep NT 
> is better then OpenStep Mach. Take multithreaded app debuging for 
> instance. Under NT you could actually collect more information then 
> under Mach...
> 
> Aleksey
> 

Speaking of NT vs. Mach do you notice that "gcc -precomp" on NT causes the 
compiler to crash or exit with an error? I also couldn't find a Foundation.p 
or AppKit.p. Via timing tests I have found that building my projects under NT 
is twice as slow as under Mach. 17.5 minutes on Mach vs. 39 minutes for NT 
for a complete build.

ProjectBuilder also crashes more often under NT than Mach.

I also have problems in NT with window sizes, positions and resizing acting 
strangely.

I also have problems with the fonts. I installed OPENSTEP Enterprise, then 
switch my NT system from "Small Fonts" to "Large Fonts". Now there are 
certain portions of text in my OPENSTEP apps where the kerning is all messed 
up. But it's not consistent with the font name and size. I think some of 
NeXT's programmers are aware of the NSFont-screenFont method and others are 
not.

Overall I have found OPENSTEP for NT to be an immature and overly buggy 
product. I do as much development under Mach as possible and then 
periodically take my code to NT to wrinkle out NT specific bugs in my app.

Let's pray that they do the right thing with Rhapsody and that it takes over 
the world...

-Chuck 
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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 4 Apr 1997 21:26:36 -0500
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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Scott Howlett (howlett@netcom.com) wrote in article  

]mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) wrote:
]
]>  On complex and matrix operations C++ code is horribly slow compared
]>  with Fortran and C.
]
]Actually, the Blitz++ numerical environment
]
]http://monet.uwaterloo.ca/blitz/
]
]compares quite favorably to FORTRAN and achieves an elegance that C
]could not hope to match.

 Alas, it relies on features of the language implemented, so far, by
 1(one) compiler from particular vendor. I would love to check
 those claims on my code, but don't have $$$ for KAI compiler.


]Do not make the mistake of generalizing the results obtained from
]one or two particular implementations to say something about the
]language itself.

 Even compiler from reknown KAI Associates requires special carefully
 designed class library to achieve performance comparable to FORTRAN
 (as readily revealed by the page you suggest). If you know of compiler
 that would beat ones tested in the article without special class
 library, please, by all means, name it.

]And there is no reason why C++ should ever need to be slower than C. Period.

 Somehow, this claim rings hollow, given drastic speed differences in
 C and C++ code.

]Statically bound member functions are no different than C function calls,
]and if you choose to use virtual functions in speed-critical code, you
]should just be smart and only use them in places where you would be using
]function pointers in C.
]
]Of course, Evil programmers can cook up a horribly slow implementation
]of something in any language.

 The fact is that straightforward coding of very simple matrix operations
 in C++ produces dreadful performance penalties. One has to jump hoops
 in order to alleviate that, getting rid of whatever little 
 OO functionality C++ has along the way.

-- 
ABILITY,n. The natural equipment to accomplish some small part of the meaner
           ambitions distinguishing able men from dead ones.
                -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"

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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 22:05:30 -0700
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In article
,
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) wrote:

> In article ,
> jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:
> 
> > In article <5i0sgp$10l$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:
> > 
> > > I see what you're saying; you're saying if [self foo] is called from
> > > - init and I override - foo to make use of some variable that's
initialized
> > > after [super init], and init calls foo, yes your program will crash.
> > > 
> > > This is what I commonly refer to as a bug. This would be a problem in
> > > any language that's bound the same way ObjC (and Java) are bound. 
> > > 
> > > This hadn't even occured to me before, since I'd never even think
> > > of doing this. 
> > 
> > Seems more like a nasty pitfall in the language to me: I shouldn't have to
> > dig around in a classes internals to figure out if it's safe to override a
> > method. The way C++ handles ctors and virtual functions may not be
> > palatable to some people, but at least the language makes it impossible to
> > call a method on an object that hasn't been initialized.
> 
> I don't think that that is exactly fair. 
> 
> If you override a virtual method, you have to deal with the fact that it
> may get called at times when you don't expect it. 

Getting called when you don't expect it is one thing. Getting called when
none of the subclasses member data is initialized is altogether different.
This *is* a pitfall in the language and it is a nasty one (especially
considering that all Objective-C methods are virtual).

> If you write a class which has member pointers, its your responsibility to
> properly manage them. 

Which you can do in C++ because ctors allow you to establish an objects
invariants before any other methods are called. Because Objective-C does
not have ctors it is impossible to "properly manage" member data in a
subclass: give me an absolutely correct non-trivial subclass and I can
break it by calling one of the overriden methods in the base classes init
method.

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 22:19:59 -0700
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In article <5i2d0h$nvb$2@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> > Seems more like a nasty pitfall in the language to me: I shouldn't have to
> > dig around in a classes internals to figure out if it's safe to override a
> > method. The way C++ handles ctors and virtual functions may not be
> > palatable to some people, but at least the language makes it impossible to
> > call a method on an object that hasn't been initialized.
> 
> As someone else posted, you can allocate space before calling [super init].
> Of course, you don't know that [super init] calls -foo, right? Well, it
> might not be a bad idea to initialize *all* your variables before calling
> [super init], especially if you're overriding a method to make use of one
> of them. Or, you could break it up if you needed to call some methods
> during the initialization. 

The NeXT Objective-C manual recommends calling [super init] before doing
your own initialization. Am I wrong in assuming that pretty much everyone
does this?

> Either way, this is a hypothetical example with little bearing on
> actual practice; - init generally does not call methods other than
> setSomeValue type methods, which one wouldn't override for functionality
> anyway. Personally, I'd prefer not to have special rules governing
> special methods, and have every method behave in a standard way, rather
> than have the language try to isolate me from myself. Bugs I can fix;
> the language I cannot.

So you object to C++ because it has a special rule outlawing polymorphism
in ctors, but you like Objective-C where you can call an overriden method
of a derived class that hasn't been inited? How can *anyone* prefer this?
Even if this happens to work you're leaving yourself open for a real
maintenance headache.

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 22:42:26 -0700
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In article <5i2dki$nvb$3@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> > So now we're back to writing our Init methods in two different ways: the
> > way recommended by the NeXT Objective-C manual where you initialize the
> > base class first and the second where you initialize the base class after
> > doing your own initialization.
> 
> - init methods are just methods. You're free to write the any way you
> please. Not all of them would neccesarily be good code, but this is
> true of any language.

Init methods are not like any other method and you cannot write them
however you please if you care about the quality of your code. So, what is
the canonical way to write an init method? Something like this maybe?

void Foo::Init()
{
   // init my member data, but don't call any methods!
   // call [super init]
   // object is now constructed so can call methods
}

It seems like this might be safe iff all the derived classes follow the
same protocol (which I'd guess pretty much no one does).

> > However as we all know relying on the internals of a class is dangerous.
> > For example, what if the base classes init method changes and now starts
> > calling methods that are overriden in a derived class? All of a sudden
> > we're calling methods on an uninitialized object.
> 
> Again, the meaning of - init is "initialize your object", not
> "call a shitload of methods in your class". While you can, you're
> supposed to be assigning default values.
> 
> > *This* is the opposite of
> > OOP: you should be able to change the internals of a base class without
> > knowing anything about derived classes.
> 
> ... says the advocate of the language with the biggest base class problem
> of all time...

And why do you think I'm an advocate of C++? Because it does some things
better than Objective-C? In fact I think C++ sucks, it just sucks less than
any other language I've used. 

  --Jesse
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From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom
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	"ctor"?

	Is that short for "constructor"?
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html


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From: cppc@objex.com (Christopher Caserio)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 20:20:04 GMT
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don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman) wrote:

>David Young  wrote:
>> This is a rant. The alloc/init combination has been around since the
>> beginnings of the language, long before NeXT or .next.advocacy.
>
>Ummm, actually NeXT, with NEXTSTEP 2.0, began the alloc/init thing.  Before 
>then it was +new for everything.
>

Actually, init/alloc came from a rewrite of the Stepstone Foundation
class library, coincident with the release of Stepstone's ObjC 4.0
compiler. Prior to this, the Object class in the Foundation
class library provided only a "new" method. Object::new called the
allocator, and subclasses first did [super new] then did local
initialization. The addition of "static binding" (actually early
binding, which allowed declarations like "String myString"), made
it possible for objects to be allocated globally or on the stack.

Because of this, and because the "+new" model was
clunky and less reusable, allocation and initialization needed
to be separated.

Which brings me to another point. These conventions are adopted
in the context of a class library, not the languge, not tradtiion or
word of mouth. Objective-C does not care how you allocate,
initialize, or otherwise diddle your objects. In fact, it would be
possible (since classes are objects) to implement a C++ style
allocation and initialization model in an ObjC class library. I
doubt that the converse would be a very enjoyable exercise, even
if it may be possible (I'm not sure).

>I personally prefer the alloc/init way of doing things, though.  It makes a 
>*lot* more sense, once you truly understand it.
>

Of course I agree. Seemed completely obvious to me...

cppc
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Simple String/Text Question
Date: 6 Apr 1997 18:39:03 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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Cc: wellman@students.uiuc.edu

In <5i1e1j$o8c@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu> Dan Wellman wrote:
> Many thanks for your help.  It's funny how printing things out to a 
windowed
> environment becomes a much different task than using good old printf() to a 
> text-based one. :)
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Dan
> 
NSString's -stringWithFormat: method  works just like printf with the added 
advantage of avoiding memory allocation issues.

For pre-openstep Text objects, the following code appends printf sytle 
output:
@implementation Text(Printf)

- appendText:(const char *)aString
{
    int e;

    if ((e=[self textLength])<=0) [self setText:aString];
    else [[self setSel:e:e] replaceSel:aString];
    [self scrollSelToVisible];
    return self;
}

- printf:(const char *)format,...
{
    NXStream *s;
    char *streambuf;
    int len, maxlen;
    va_list ap;

    va_start(ap, format);
    s=NXOpenMemory(NULL, 0, NX_WRITEONLY);
    NXVPrintf(s, format, ap);
    (void)NXPutc(s, '\0');
    NXFlush(s);
    NXGetMemoryBuffer(s, &streambuf, &len, &maxlen);
    [self appendText:streambuf];
    NXCloseMemory(s, NX_FREEBUFFER);      
    va_end(ap);
    return 0;
}

- (char *)stringValue;
{
    char *buf;
    buf = NXZoneMalloc([NXApp zone], [self textLength]+1);
    [self getSubstring:buf start:0 length:[self textLength]+1];
    return buf;
}

- (void)setStringValue:(char *)string;
{
    [self setText:string];
    return;
}


@end


Something similar is built into NSText.

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From: Constantin Szallies 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compatibility NXWriteTypes and decodeValuesOfObjCTypes
Date: 6 Apr 1997 19:03:29 GMT
Organization: Technet GmbH
Lines: 18
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ploeger@pedcard.uni-kiel.de (Andreas Ploeger) wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I've got hundreds of files that were written using NXWriteTypes within the 
>'write:' method of each class.
>
>Can I change these classes to be subclasses of NsObject instead of Object 
and 
>read the old files using decodeValuesOfObjCTypes? 

As far as I know, there's no automatic solution to convert old typed streams 
to new "typed streams", you have to write converion methods to do this.

Greetings 
-- 
# Constantin Szallies, Energotec GmbH
# szallies@energotec.de
# 49211-9144018
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From: Juergen Albertsen 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: projectServer.exe
Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 18:43:06 +0100
Organization: Private
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <3347E0AA.F09@flensburg.netsurf.de>
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To: dave_coyle@ctp.com
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Dave Coyle wrote:
> 
> Hi all!
> 
> Could someone please tell me what projectServer.exe does?
> 
> And while you're at it, tell me why it consumes 97% of my CPU, even when
> ProjectBuilder is no longer running? (!!)
> 
> thanks in advance!
> 
> FYI I'm using OStep on NT...(if you haven't guessed that)
> 
> Dave
> 
> Dave_coyle@ctp.com

Hi,

as far as I know (and guess) the project server is responsible for such
features like adding an EOModel from within the EOModeler.  You
certainly
experienced this: When you save vour eomodeld to a directory where you
project resides it asks you whether you want to add teh eomodeld to that
project.

In general, the project server is the coordinator between the several
development tools.

Jrgen
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From: duboisj@gondolin.is.com (Josh DuBois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: DPSAddFD() in OpenStep 4.x????
Date: 6 Apr 1997 22:59:01 GMT
Organization: Integrity Solutions, Inc.
Lines: 21
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	Hey, All - 

		I found an old post in an archive of this list posing the  
following question : how do you port code that uses the DPSAddFD()  
function from 3.3 to 4.x?  The conversion documentation is insonsistant,  
claiming at one point that a NSPosixFileDescriptor object must be created  
and sent a 'monitorActivity' message, then passed to NSRunLoop's  
addPosixFileDescriptor: method.  Elsewhere in the docs, however, it is  
claimed that NSPosixFileDescriptor has been replaced by NSFileHandle.   
Unfortunately, NSFileHandle does not seem to have an API for doing  
anything like 'monitorActivity' - but I can't find docs on this method so  
I'm not sure what it does/did anyhow.

	Anyone know how to handle this - where to read to find out more?   
Anyone from NeXT listening?

		Thanks a lot, 

			Josh.

(p.s.) the archived post hadn't recieved any responses.
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From: Jim Redman 
Date: Thu,  3 Apr 97 13:13:15 -0700
Subject: worryAboutPortInvalidation
Lines: 7

Has anyone seen the problem where NS 3.3's NXPort method =
+worryAboutPortInvalidation consumes a huge amount of  CPU time?  =
It seems that the thread that is created by this method runs =
constantly and will consume as much CPU time as available.=20

Jim

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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C? (Long)
Date: 5 Apr 1997 08:42:52 GMT
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On 04/03/97, Loren Petrich wrote:
>	And the nice thing about classes like that is that if you put 
>the implementation of their methods inside the class definition, you 
>get automatic inlining. Thus here is an implementation of complex 
>numbes as a C++ class -- with automatic inlining, there ought to be 
>*no* function calls in the compiled version of it, making possible 
>superspeed.
>
>class Complex {
>// Nothing needs to be hidden
>public:
>
>double Re, Im; // Real and Imaginary Parts
>
>Complex() {Re = Im = 0;} // Blank complex number
>Complex(double r) {Re = r; Im = 0;} // Real to complex
>Complex(double r, double i) {Re = r; Im = i;} // Two reals to complex
>// The default copy constructor and implementation of operator =
>// are presumably OK here, as is the default destructor
>
>// Set to real
>void operator = (double r) {Re = r; Im = 0;}
>
>Complex &operator +(Complex &z) {
>	Complex zres;
>	zres.Re = Re + z.Re;
>	zres.Im = Im + z.Im;
>	return zres;
>}
>
>Complex &operator -(Complex &z) {
>	Complex zres;
>	zres.Re = Re - z.Re;
>	zres.Im = Im - z.Im;
>	return zres;
>}
>
>Complex &operator -() {
>	Complex zres;
>	zres.Re = - Re;
>	zres.Im = - Im;
>	return zres;
>}

Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't the above 3 routines return 
references to things on the stack which will be invalid after the
function returns?  Gcc gives a warning for the above code.

>Complex &operator +=(Complex &z) {
>	Re += z.Re;
>	Im += z.Im;
>	return *this;
>}
>
>Complex &operator -=(Complex &z) {
>	Re -= z.Re;
>	Im -= z.Im;
>	return *this;
>}
>
>Complex &operator *(Complex &z) {
>	Complex zres;
>	zres.Re = Re*z.Re - Im*z.Im;
>	zres.Im = Im*z.Re + Re*z.Im;
>	return zres;
>}

And again....

>Complex &operator /(Complex &z) {
>	Complex zres;
>	// Trick to avoid possible overflows
>	double denom;
>	if (fabs(z.Re) >= fabs(z.Im)) {
>		denom = z.Re + (z.Im*z.Im)/z.Re;
>		zres.Re = (Re + Im*z.Im/z.Re)/denom;
>		zres.Im = (Im - Re*z.Im/z.Re)/denom;
>	} else {
>		denom = z.Im + (z.Re*z.Re)/z.Im;
>		zres.Re = (Im + Re*z.Re/z.Im)/denom;
>		zres.Im = (-Re + Im*z.Re/z.Im)/denom;
>	}
>	return zres;
>}

One more time....

>};
>
>I'm not adding anything on complex versions of various functions, but 
>that ought to be easy:
>
>Complex &sin(Complex &z) {
>	Complex zres;
>	zres.Re = sin(z.Re)*cosh(z.Im);
>	zres.Im = cos(z.Re)*sinh(z.Im);
>	return zres;
>}
>
>Complex &exp(Complex &z) {
>	Complex zres;
>	zres.Re = exp(z.Re)*cos(z.Im);
>	zres.Im = exp(z.Re)*sin(z.Im);
>	return zres;
>}
>
Twice more even.

To fix that code, you could easily just remove the & on the result 
types.  That will of course imply extra copies for any simple 
operations that most compilers won't optimize away because they can't 
make assumptions about the semantics of the operations or how they are 
going to be used.  I've been spending the past week messing around with 
operator overloading, trying various different ways of declaring 
operators, etc.  Frankly, I'm not that impressed with the code I've 
seen generated.  It seems like no matter what I do, I can't eliminate 
extra code.

Here's my current test-bed code:

---------
#include 

typedef struct
{
	int x;
	int y;
	int z;
} Vec;

inline Vec *vec3muladd(Vec *a, Vec *b, Vec *c, Vec *result)
{
	result->x = a->x * b->x + c->x;
	result->y = a->y * b->y + c->y;
	result->z = a->z * b->z + c->z;
	return result;
}

class Vector
{
	int x;
	int y;
	int z;
public:
	Vector()
	{	
		x = y = z = 0;
	}
	Vector(int a, int b, int c)
	{
		x = a; y = b; z = c; 
	}
	Vector(Vector &vec)
	{      
		x = vec.x; y = vec.y; z = vec.z; 
	}
	Vector operator+(const Vector &a)
	{
		Vector res;
		res.x = x + a.x;
		res.y = y + a.y;
		res.z = z + a.z;
		return res;
	}
	Vector operator*(const Vector &a)
	{
		Vector res;
		res.x = x * a.x;
		res.y = y * a.y;
		res.z = z * a.z;
		return res;
	}
	Vector &operator+=(const Vector &a)
	{
		x += a.x;
		y += a.y;
		z += a.z;
		return *this;
	}
	Vector operator=(const Vector &vec)
	{
		x = vec.x;
		y = vec.y;
		z = vec.z;
		return *this;
	}
	friend Vector operator*(const Vector &a, const Vector &b)
	{
		return Vector(a.x * b.x, a.y * b.y, a.z * b.z);
	}
	friend Vector operator+(const Vector &a, const Vector &b)
	{
		return Vector(a.x + b.x, a.y + b.y, a.z + b.z);
	}
};


void doit(const Vector &a, const Vector &b, const Vector &c, Vector 
&d);
void doit2(Vec *a, Vec *b, Vec *c, Vec *d);

int main(int argc, char *argv)
{
	Vector a(1,2,3), b(4,5,6), c(7,8,9), d;
	Vec av = {1, 2, 3}, bv = {4, 5, 6}, cv = {7, 8, 9}, dv;
	
	doit(a,b,c,d);
	doit2(&av,&bv,&cv,&dv);
	
	return 0;
}

void doit(const Vector &a, const Vector &b, const Vector &c, Vector &d)
{
	d = a + b * c;
}

void doit2(Vec *a, Vec *b, Vec *c, Vec *d)
{
	vec3muladd(b,c,a,d);
}
--------------

It is interesting to compare the assembly output of the compiler for 
the two test functions.  This code was generated using gcc 2.5.8, with 
-O2 and -fomit-frame pointer.  The code was generated for m68k, mainly 
because the code is easy to follow:

First, doit:

	addw #-40,sp			// allocate some stack space
	moveml #0x3030,sp@-		// save registers 
	movel sp@(60),a3		// a3 = &a
	movel sp@(64),a1		// a1 = &b
	movel sp@(68),a0		// a0 = &c
	movel sp@(72),a2		// a2 = &d
	movel a1@(4),d0			// d0 = b.y
	mulsl a0@(4),d0			// d0 = b.y * c.y
	movel a1@(8),d1			// d1 = b.z
	mulsl a0@(8),d1			// d1 = b.z * c.z
	movel a1@,d3			// d3 = b.x
	mulsl a0@,d3			// d3 = b.x * c.x
	movel d3,sp@(16)		// temp.x = b.x
	movel d0,sp@(20)		// temp.y = b.y
	movel d1,sp@(24)		// temp.z = b.z
	movel a3@,d2			// d2 = a.x
	addl sp@(16),d2			// d2 = a.x + temp.x
	movel a3@(4),d0			// d0 = a.y 
	addl sp@(20),d0			// d0 = a.y + temp.y
	movel a3@(8),d1			// d1 = a.z
	addl sp@(24),d1			// d1 = a.z + temp.z
	movel d2,sp@(28)		// temp2.x = d2
	movel d0,sp@(32)		// temp2.y = d0
	movel d1,sp@(36)		// temp2.z = d1
	movel d2,a2@			// temp3.x = d2 (temp2.x)
	movel sp@(32),a2@(4)		// temp3.y = temp2.y
	movel sp@(36),a2@(8)		// temp3.z = temp3.z
	movel a2@,sp@(40)		// d.x = temp3.x
	movel a2@(4),sp@(44)		// d.y = temp3.y
	movel a2@(8),sp@(48)		// d.z = temp3.z
	moveml sp@+,#0xc0c		// restore registers
	addw #40,sp			// restore stack
	rts				// return


Next, doit2:

.globl _doit2__FP3VecN30
_doit2__FP3VecN30:
	movel a3,sp@-		// Save a3
	movel a2,sp@-		// Save a2
	movel sp@(12),a3	// a3 = pointer to a
	movel sp@(16),a2	// a2 = pointer to b
	movel sp@(20),a0	// a0 = pointer to c
	movel sp@(24),a1	// a1 = pointer to d
	movel a2@,d0		// d0 = b->x
	mulsl a0@,d0		// d0 = b->x * c->x
	addl a3@,d0		// d0 = a->x + b->x * c->x
	movel d0,a1@		// d->x = d0
	movel a2@(4),d0		// d0 = b->y
	mulsl a0@(4),d0		// d0 = b->y * c->y
	addl a3@(4),d0		// d0 = a->y + b->y * c->y
	movel d0,a1@(4)		// d->y = d0
	movel a2@(8),d0		// d0 = b->y
	mulsl a0@(8),d0		// d0 = b->y * c-y
	addl a3@(8),d0		// d0 = a->y + b->y * c->y
	movel d0,a1@(8)		// d->z = d0
	movel sp@+,a2		// restore a2
	movel sp@+,a3		// restore a3
	rts

In my opinion, the "C" code generated the most efficient and desired 
result, with no extra copying.   The C++ code had many more copies than 
necessary to complete the operation.  It seems (at least with this 
example) that in order to get "C" performance, you have to resort to 
"C" code, because doing things the 'efficient' way in C++ isn't quite 
so effecient.  Is the C++ code really THAT much slower on modern CPUS?  
Maybe not.  But it will add up.
 
Now, I will be happy to eat my words if someone can show me a) how to 
write the C++ vector routines that use operator overloading to generate 
the 'efficient' code, or b) someone can show me a compiler that is 
smart enough to 'figure it out' on it's own somehow.

I don't have the time to try it right now, but I wonder or not whether 
it's possible to achieve the full potential of FPUs like those in a 
PowerPC 604e using C++, such as what could be done with the 
multiply-accumulate instructions that it has.  Could a C++ compiler 
optimize the combination of the multiply and add operations above 
(assuming I used floats instead of ints).  Somehow I doubt it, which 
means you will have to resort back to writing a C funnction that a 
compiler can optimize easily.

Actually, I was curious, so I changed the code to use floats and 
compiled it with gcc 2.6.3 for PowerPC.  The generated assembly code 
was:

doit2:
        lfs 0,0(4)
        lfs 12,0(5)
        lfs 13,0(3)
        fmadds 0,0,12,13
        stfs 0,0(6)
        lfs 0,4(4)
        lfs 12,4(5)
        lfs 13,4(3)
        fmadds 0,0,12,13
        stfs 0,4(6)
        lfs 0,8(4)
        lfs 12,8(5)
        lfs 13,8(3)
        fmadds 0,0,12,13
        stfs 0,8(6)
        blr

Are there any C++ compilers that will generate code like that using 
operator overloading?  If not, what's the damned point?  I don't think 
pretty syntax is a worthy tradeoff for inefficient code.

-Ken


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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C? (Long)
Date: 7 Apr 1997 00:43:35 GMT
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On 04/05/97, Loren Petrich wrote:
>In article <19970405150443877417@dialup100-3-16.swipnet.se>,
>Lars Farm  wrote:
>
>>> Now, I will be happy to eat my words if someone can show me a) how 
to
>>> write the C++ vector routines that use operator overloading to 
generate
>>> the 'efficient' code, or b) someone can show me a compiler that is 
>>> smart enough to 'figure it out' on it's own somehow.
>
>>You satisfied case (a) yourself and Apple's MrC[pp] deals with case 
(b).
>>See below.
>
>	I wonder if it is possible to extract assembly-language 
>listings from Metrowerks CodeWarrior; it may be some option somewhere.

Lars was kind enough to send me the output of the floating point code, 
which is really the interesting case.  It was less inspiring, and 
pretty much the same as every other C++ compiler I have tried in the 
past few days.  I've tried the code on SGI's C++ compiler (CC), GCC 
2.7.2.2, Watcom 10.5 C++ and MSVC++ 4.2.  They all generated 
similarly inefficient code.  Thus far only one compiler (MrC) has 
generated C++ code that was equal to the C code in performance. That's 
one out of six.  So while it seems that it's _possible_ to achive high 
performance with operator overloading and inlining, it doesn't seem to 
happen that often. :(  Perhaps if C++ wasn't so complicated from a 
compiler standpoint, compiler vendors could spend more time actually 
working on code optimization instead of implementing the latest C++ 
feature of the month.

>>> Are there any C++ compilers that will generate code like that using 
>>> operator overloading?  If not, what's the damned point?  I don't 
think
>>> pretty syntax is a worthy tradeoff for inefficient code.
>
>	Actually, "pretty syntax" helps in making a program readable, 
>because code that is write-only is also difficult to debug.

Perhaps, but I have seen plenty of write-only C++ code, and operator 
overloading would not have helped any.

-Ken


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From: jkeenan@next.com (Joe Keenan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DPSAddFD() in OpenStep 4.x????
Date: 7 Apr 1997 00:52:34 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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In article <5i99rl$79d@medusa.is.com> duboisj@gondolin.is.com (Josh DuBois)  
writes:

> Unfortunately, NSFileHandle does not seem to have an API for doing  
> anything like 'monitorActivity' - but I can't find docs on this method so  
> I'm not sure what it does/did anyhow.

I think you want to open a file handle for your data source, then send the  
NSFileHandle object a readInBackgroundAndNotify (or variant) message.  The  
object that's interested in "monitoring" the file handle registers to get  
NSFileHandleReadCompletionNotification messages from the default  
NotificationCenter.

Or something like that.  I've never actually done this.

joe
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From: "Georg Tuparev" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 09:19:29 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Message-ID: <5i55f1$4at@concorde.ctp.com>
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In article   
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) writes:
> My intent was quite the opposite. Some people are claiming that making
> trivial data types like Point or Rect classes was somehow inefficient. In
> fact, making them a class is no less efficient than making them a struct,
> in C++. In other languages, like ObjC, they may be right. 

Here a comment that has nothing to do with the C-- vs. ObjC flame war.

Making trivial data types classes is a wrong thing (tm) because leads to a Object  
lasagne, and also someone (the developer) has to learn them. To learn more on this  
subject refer back to the glorious history of Taligent. It's one of my best lessons  
when I'm teaching OO ;-)

Flame and enjoy

-- georg --

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: "Georg Tuparev" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 09:37:13 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <5i56g9$52u@concorde.ctp.com>
References: <860182383.24911@dejanews.com>
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In article <860182383.24911@dejanews.com> curranj@mskcc.org writes:
> In article
>   The point of all this, is the common (but wrong) belief here that ObjC
> is some quantuum leap over C++ (helping Apple/Next leap to the forefront
> on computers).	It's isn't and won't.

This is a religion, not an argument. All the ObjC supporters and some of the C--  
ones are just arguing that one can write good and bad source in both languages.  
Taking into consideration the strong relationship between ObjC and Smalltalk (a pure  
OO language) and the horrible complexity of C--, its is just easier to write good  
source in ObjC. But of course there are good C-- examples .... my favorite one is  
ET++ - the framework that initiated the design patterns issue.

BTW, the first C-- book I read a decade earlier was claiming that C-- is a better C  
and not that it is an OO language, but some people obviously tend to forget this  
minor fact.

Continue flaming

-- georg --

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: "Georg Tuparev" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 09:53:10 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 33
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In article   
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> In article <5i2dki$nvb$3@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:
> void Foo::Init()
> {
>    // init my member data, but don't call any methods!
>    // call [super init]
>    // object is now constructed so can call methods
> }
> 
> It seems like this might be safe iff all the derived classes follow the
> same protocol (which I'd guess pretty much no one does).

Obviously you should at least read the manuals ....

- init
{
	[super init];
	
	// Do what you like
	return self;
}

Everyone does it, and there is no way to make mistakes. Basta!

-- georg --
--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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From: "Georg Tuparev" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 09:47:55 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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In article   
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> Getting called when you don't expect it is one thing. Getting called when
> none of the subclasses member data is initialized is altogether different.
> This *is* a pitfall in the language and it is a nasty one (especially
> considering that all Objective-C methods are virtual).

During the last 7 years I produced about half a million lines of ObjC code, and I  
reviewed at least another 2 million lines. During this time I've seen not a single  
mistake of calling alloc  and init (or in a very early days - new). But I've seen  
1000s of mistakes of using/implementing all these horrible constructors and  
destructors in C--. 

We obviously have very different definitions on what a pitfall means....

-- georg --

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 20:06:26 -0700
From: Jim Redman 
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Lines: 19


From: petrich@netcom.com 
>class Complex {
>  .... rest of class delete

Finally an example worthy of a C++ implementation, and a fine piece of code
to include in any Objective-C program.  

Why does this discussion continue?  If one or other language was superior in
all situations then the choice would be clear.  By arbitrarily discounting
one or the other you deny the advantages of it.  The GNU (and therefore
NeXT's) implemention of Objective-C does a fairly good job of compiling C++
and the two can be intermixed fairly easily.  Now if the discussion were to
include Visual Basic .....


Jim


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From: "Timothy J. Luoma" 
Date: Sat,  5 Apr 97 10:45:22 -0500
Subject: Help needed to add functionality to 'PPPMeter'
Reply-To: luomat@peak.org
Organization: Princeton Theological Seminary
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Greetings one and all!

PPPMeter is a simple app that controls bringing the PPP link up and  
down.  It also has a nice little timer that I would like to  
enhance, but have no idea how to do so.

Right now the timer is controlled by a mach-o executable called  
"pppstatus" (not to be confused with "pppstats").


pppstatus takes 1 of 2 arguments:

1	= start the timer from 0:0:0 (hours/minutes/seconds)
0	= stop the timer (but do not reset the clock)

I would like very much to have another argument such as "2" which  
would start the timer from the time that it stopped.

As it stands now, 'pppstatus' only keeps track of the time for the  
current session.  I would like for it to keep track of multiple  
sessions (note: there is a way to do this with the 'meter' but there  
is no way to reset that from the commandline, and I am trying to  
make this process automatic with the ip-up/ip-down scripts.

If there are any programmer-types out there would would be willing  
to take a look at the app, it can be found here:

ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/apps/internet/ppp/PPPMeter.v1.5.NIHS.bs.tar.gz

and here

ftp://peanuts.leo.org/pub/next/Unix/communication/PPPMeter.1.5.s.tar.gz

Thanks for your time

TjL

--
TjL      http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
"Give a man a piece of working code and you solve his problem.
 Teach a man to write code and you give him a
 lifetime of new problems"	-- me



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From: nouser@nohost.nodomain (Thomas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 06 Apr 1997 20:27:35 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 23
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References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com> <5i01o1$7vt@mn5.swip.net>
	
	 <5i378c$lhc@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
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In article <5i378c$lhc@lynx.dac.neu.edu> mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:

    Umm, just to keep things in perspective - C++ is NOT good language
    for numerical work (well, ObjC may be no better, but you brought 
    numerical stuff up, so...).

    See: S.W.Haney "Is C++ Fast Enough for Scientific Computing ?"
    Computers in Physics, vol.8, no.6, nov/dec 1994

    On complex and matrix operations C++ code is horribly slow compared
    with Fortran and C.

That's nonsense.  C++ imposes no additional overhead on existing C
code, so whatever you implement in C, you can implement in C++ in
exactly the same way, and you can still take advantage of many
syntactic conveniences C++ offers for numerical code.  Fortran 77 and
90 give you a little more performance by making unsafe assumptions;
you can enable similar optimizations in many C/C++ compilers if
you want to; however, you are probably better off using optimized
standardized inner loops like BLAS anyway.

Thomas.

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From: croehrig@cs.ubc.ca (Chris Roehrig)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs
Subject: Remote kernel debugging broken under 3.3?
Date: 3 Apr 1997 00:54:56 GMT
Organization: Computer Science, University of B.C., Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Is remote kernel debugging broken under NS3.3?   I've read all the docs, called  
NeXT tech. support, and they claim it *should* work, but it doesn't.  

I'm doing:

1.  make sure master can do a "ping slave", and that arp -a lists slave's  
ethernet address.
2.  On master: cd /; gdb mach
3.  On slave:  bring up NEXTSTEP minimonitor (L-alt, R-alt, numlock)
4.  On master: kattach slave

I end up getting console messages: KDB: Can't connect to target.

I isolated slave and master from my LAN, made sure all network operations  
worked, and tried it again.  This time I got a gdb error message:
	Couldn't find kernel kdb port, gdb_slave
which from the gdb source code fails earlier (during netname lookups) instead  
of during execution of /usr/lib/kdb itself.

Other info:
No other gdb sessions are running.
The machines are identical ASUS 430VX P133 boxes with Matrox Milleniums, and  
3Com EtherLinkIII in ISA mode.   The latest NeXTanswers drivers are used for  
all devices.  I've installed the 3.3Developer and User patches (which contain  
an updated gdb).  

Any suggestions?


--
Chris Roehrig                                               croehrig@House.ORG
Neuroscience and Computer Science at University of British Columbia, Vancouver
http://www.House.ORG/chris                      http://www.sns.cs.ubc.ca/chris
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From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Posix support post 4.0
Date: 5 Apr 1997 08:20:43 -0500
Organization: Quick and Associates
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In article <5i3bv5$csh$1@netty.york.ac.uk>, -bat.  wrote:
>Hmmm, having noticed that things were starting to get removed with the last
>few releases of NS - notably the posix support between 3.3 and 4.0 I was
>wondering if they have started to creep back in in 4.1 or 4.2. With the
>advent of Rhapsody surely the OS should be made more up-to-date and not less ?
>I know the posix support was a bit grim - but it was better than nothing
>and I find it frustrating to have to still compile new code under 3.3
>rather than 4.0 due to this.

#ifdef RUMOR_MODE

I have not heard this confirmed from any official source so take it
for what its worth.

I've heard that Rhapsody is likely to be a fully 4.4 BSD compliant
implementation.  If that is true, then we won't need any separate 
posix support.  The 4.4 terminal handling is already POSIX compliant
as are most other libraries and utilities.

#endif RUMOR_MODE

As far as the 4.x compatibility in 4.0 and 4.1 goes, no.  They have
not improved POSIX support.  Since 4.2 is primarily a bug fix
release 4.2 will not focus much on that either.  I would expect
that by year end, the OpenStep Mach code base will be using the
Yellow Box code tree from Rhapsody anyway, the kernel and base OS
environment will thus be better.

-- 
  ___ ___ | James E. Quick                     jq@quick.com 
   / /  / | Quick & Associates                 NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/  |    Apple, we know the song's not written yet,
       )  |    but could you at least hum a few more bars? 
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From: pete@ohm.york.ac.uk (-bat.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Posix support post 4.0
Date: 5 Apr 1997 14:10:48 GMT
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jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick) writes:
> I've heard that Rhapsody is likely to be a fully 4.4 BSD compliant
> implementation.  If that is true, then we won't need any separate 
> posix support.  The 4.4 terminal handling is already POSIX compliant
> as are most other libraries and utilities.

Now that would be nice... assuming we get Rhapsody on Intel.

> release 4.2 will not focus much on that either.  I would expect
> that by year end, the OpenStep Mach code base will be using the
> Yellow Box code tree from Rhapsody anyway, the kernel and base OS
> environment will thus be better.

Well, I shall look forward to it - assuming that I'm still using OpenStep by
the end of the year ! It's getting harder to hang onto - theres only 2 of
us left here and my colleague would much rather move to inferno development.

sigh...

-bat.
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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compatibility NXWriteTypes and decodeValuesOfObjCTypes
Date: 6 Apr 1997 22:25:58 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
Lines: 12
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In <5i337i$fc8$1@infosrv.rz.uni-kiel.de> Andreas Ploeger wrote:
> I've got hundreds of files that were written using NXWriteTypes within the 
> 'write:' method of each class.
> Can I change these classes to be subclasses of NsObject instead of Object and 
> read the old files using decodeValuesOfObjCTypes? 

Yes

--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 18:07:47 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> The NeXT Objective-C manual recommends calling [super init] before doing
> your own initialization. Am I wrong in assuming that pretty much everyone
> does this?

You're not wrong. Pretty much everyone does this. However, if you're
planning on carelessly using your pointers throughout the object and
in methods you override, maybe you'd want to allocate space first and
call [super init] second. Technically, you can call [super init]
pretty much anywhere. It's up to the programmer to decide when it's
appropriate. Most of the time, the appropriate time is the first step
in - init, since the rest of your init code might need to call some
accessor metthods.

> So you object to C++ because it has a special rule outlawing polymorphism
> in ctors, but you like Objective-C where you can call an overriden method
> of a derived class that hasn't been inited? How can *anyone* prefer this?
> Even if this happens to work you're leaving yourself open for a real
> maintenance headache.

If the difference were that simple, I probably wouldn't mind. I can't
stand constructors, but I can tolerate Java. It's the lack of dynamic
binding that really makes me vomit. It's the virtual/nonvirtual method
concept that makes me ill. It's the half-assed dynamic typing and
introspection support that makes me run for the toilet.

The reason you're going insane about this is because you're trying to
program in Objective-C using C++ concepts. It doesn't model well for the
same reasons that I can't program in C++ and use concepts of dynamic
binding. To make assumptions about pointers in an overridden method is
poor programming practice, plain and simple.

I suppose you're arguing that the language a programmer programs in
should be more restrictive in order to keep the programmer from
making mistakes. This is the same issue as the static vs. dynamic typing
argument, and somehow I think neither side will ever be swayed to the other.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 18:25:26 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> Init methods are not like any other method and you cannot write them
> however you please if you care about the quality of your code. So, what is
> the canonical way to write an init method? Something like this maybe?

[snip]

This argument is stale. To write your example is a bug. Objective-C
doesn't try to artificially protect you from them. C++ makes a stab
at it with a sacrifice in flexibility.

> And why do you think I'm an advocate of C++? Because it does some things
> better than Objective-C? In fact I think C++ sucks, it just sucks less than
> any other language I've used. 

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: dashlangan@geocities.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: This Y2K Solution w/o Testing is Better Than Nothing
Date: 7 Apr 1997 12:50:37 +0200
Organization: Posting Service
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The "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K solution is so simple
that if you are really pressed for time, you can just insert
this windowing technique correction code where needed, do a
batch compilation, and then move all your load modules right
into production.

After all, with time constraints and considering the state of
affairs in most installations, you better not waste your time
with testing.  The "Open and Shut Window Technique" without
testing is very much recommended over no modifications at all.

(Yeah, I know that I am reversing my prior stance, but hey,
whadda ya gonna do?)

See url:  http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/  
for the "Open and Shut Window Technique."

Dash Langan
--
Please note my new email address, dashlangan@geocities.com

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From: apuleius@ix.netcom.com (William Grosso)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 18:50:32 GMT
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On 5 Apr 1997 09:19:29 GMT, "Georg Tuparev"  wrote:
>
>Making trivial data types classes is a wrong thing (tm) because leads to a Object  
>lasagne, and also someone (the developer) has to learn them. To learn more on this  
>subject refer back to the glorious history of Taligent. It's one of my best lessons  
>when I'm teaching OO ;-)
>

Depends. I've worked on projects where we had a whole "variable" class
hierachy (e.g. FloatVariable and IntegerVariable inherited from
NumberVariable). 

Why ? To enable publish subscribe on key data values (the variables 
had behavior), to make persistence simpler, to provide easy hooks for
validation, and to allow for "undefined" to be a value (can't do that
with an ordinary float-- every value is a number). 

Maybe we were wrong to do what we did. But somehow, Taligent
doesn't seem like all that potent a refutation.


Cheers,

Andy

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat,  5 Apr 1997 10:42:57 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 4-Apr-97 Re: Objective
C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com 
>> If you override a virtual method, you have to deal with the fact that it
>> may get called at times when you don't expect it. 
>  
> Getting called when you don't expect it is one thing. Getting called when
> none of the subclasses member data is initialized is altogether different.
> This *is* a pitfall in the language and it is a nasty one (especially
> considering that all Objective-C methods are virtual).

It's pretty simple.  If you override method -foo, you are taking
responsibility that your new implementation still works whenever one of
your superclasses calls foo.  I agree that you should not have to change
any of your superclasses; I agree that you should not especially have to
deal with anything except the data "at your level" when writing -foo
(unless you want to), before calling [super foo] to invoke the
superclasses implementation.

Therefore, if the superclass -init calls foo, you have the
responsibility to ensure that the "at your level" data and invariants
your classes -foo method depends on are set up before you call [super
init] in your -init implementation.

>> If you write a class which has member pointers, its your responsibility to
>> properly manage them. 
>  
> Which you can do in C++ because ctors allow you to establish an objects
> invariants before any other methods are called. Because Objective-C does
> not have ctors it is impossible to "properly manage" member data in a
> subclass: give me an absolutely correct non-trivial subclass and I can
> break it by calling one of the overriden methods in the base classes init
> method.

So what?  Any fool can write code which breaks.  Trying to demonstrate
that Obj-C is flawed from the standpoint of a OO language requires
substantially more than that.

The way that objects are allocated and initialized is implemented within
Obj-C uses normal method invocation rather than being explicitly
mandated by the language the way it is in C++.  This means that you have
more flexibility to work with if you want to take advantage of it.

Normally, people don't call other methods in the implementation of
-init, but Obj-C lets you do so if you wish.  You also can write
subclasses where you override the implementation of a method called from
your superclasses -init.  This means your class can break if you fail to
write your overridden method correctly.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat,  5 Apr 1997 11:15:38 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 4-Apr-97 Re: Objective
C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com 
> The NeXT Objective-C manual recommends calling [super init] before doing
> your own initialization. Am I wrong in assuming that pretty much everyone
> does this?

Nope.  That's what pretty much everyone does.

However, in the hypothetical situation where you override a method
called from a super's -init, you will need to initialize whatever local
variables are used in the overridden implementation before calling
[super init] within the local -init.

> > Either way, this is a hypothetical example with little bearing on
> > actual practice; - init generally does not call methods other than
> > setSomeValue type methods, which one wouldn't override for functionality
> > anyway. Personally, I'd prefer not to have special rules governing
> > special methods, and have every method behave in a standard way, rather
> > than have the language try to isolate me from myself. Bugs I can fix;
> > the language I cannot.
>  
> So you object to C++ because it has a special rule outlawing polymorphism
> in ctors, but you like Objective-C where you can call an overriden method
> of a derived class that hasn't been inited?

That's right.

> How can *anyone* prefer this?

Because the hypothetical situation that you're making such a big deal
about (almost) never happens in real-world code.  People don't call
methods which might be overridden within the implementation of -init--
see below about "hidden" methods.

And if it did happen, it would probably be very obvious what was going
on-- doing a 'bt' in gdb and seeing -foo crashed after being called from
a super's -init.  It's possible to fix very easily within your class
without changing the implementation of any of the superclasses.

> Even if this happens to work you're leaving yourself open for a real
> maintenance headache.

This is complete and unadulterated nonsense.  This issue has had _zero_
impact upon any real-world project that I'm familiar with.  And I've
been developing products using Obj-C for about 5 years now, including a
software debugging and error handling tool called CrashCatcher which
many Obj-C developers have used-- I'm thoroughly familiar with the types
of errors that developers make with Obj-C.  Off-hand, I can't recall
even a single instance where this problem occurred.

You are aware that you can not publish the interface for a particular
method?  One convention I'm familiar with is to give such a "hidden"
method a name which starts with "_" to move it out of the standard
method namespace.

That's what I do if I want to call a method within -init.  Anyone who
overrides my private and "hidden" method is taking it upon themselves to
figure out how to do so without breaking anything.  (*)

-Chuck

--------------
(*) As can be seen by anyone who plays around with class-dump and CC
2.x-- they'd discover a couple of unpublished methods which begin with
"_"....

         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 01:16:55 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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curranj@mskcc.org wrote:
> The point of all this, is the common (but wrong) belief here that
> ObjC is some quantuum leap over C++ (helping Apple/Next leap to
> the forefront on computers).        It's isn't and won't.

I would not say that ObjC is a quantum leap over C++.
I would just say ObjC sucks less.  Any step forward is
worth taking, even if it isn't some giant leap.

And, just out of curiousity, has anyone gotten anything useful out
of this (yet another) thread on C++ vs  comparisons?

Does anyone think that posting 15-line examples of anything in
either language is going to prove anything to anyone?  Anyone
advocating one of these languages has probably written a few thousand
lines in the language of their choice.  It's pretty much irrelevent
how well the language works for 15-line programs, it's how it works
in the real-world of large projects.

Unfortunately it's painful enough to write one large project, few
people get around to writing the same kind of large project in two
different languages.  And if they do, no one will believe the
results they come up with anyway.  What a pathetic industry we're
in, where we can't even figure out what a good language is.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C? (Long)
Date: 5 Apr 1997 20:10:24 GMT
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On 04/04/97, Lars Farm wrote:
>Kenneth C. Dyke  wrote:
>
>> Here's my current test-bed code:
>
>  [ ... ]
>
>> It is interesting to compare the assembly output of the compiler for 
>> the two test functions.
>
>Indeed!
>
>> Now, I will be happy to eat my words if someone can show me a) how 
>> to write the C++ vector routines that use operator overloading to 
>> generate the 'efficient' code, or b) someone can show me a compiler 
>> that is smart enough to 'figure it out' on it's own somehow.
>
>You satisfied case (a) yourself and Apple's MrC[pp] deals with case 
>(b). See below.

[optimal PPC code snipped]

Well I'll be damned.  Impressive.  All the more reason to get a PowerPC 
box later this year.  Now if only Apple or Motorola will add Objective 
C to that compiler too... (ducks)

I'm grabbing the latest gcc (2.7.2.2) to see if it does any better.  
You wouldn't happen to have Codewarrior for PPC and could send me the 
code it generates would you?  It seems as if that's a fairly reasonable
test case for code generation, at least on PowerPC systems.  On systems 
without multiply-accumulate instructions it may not matter quite as 
much.

-Ken

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From: mgiammarco@racine.ra.it
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: interrupts in a display driver
Date: 5 Apr 1997 21:30:35 GMT
Organization: Cineca
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Reply-To: giammarc@cs.unibo.it
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Hello,
in a display driver how can I call the bios of an svga vesa compliant?
Can I use the int instruction to call a software interrupt?
Please reply to giammarc@cs.unibo.it

--
Mario Giammarco               |           Tel/FAX +39-545-22965
Via Calamandrei,5             |            giammarc@cs.unibo.it
48022 Lugo (RA) -- ITALY      |       rac0043@racine.ravenna.it

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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 15:27:26 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
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In article <5i4967$b4b@usenet.rpi.edu> Garance A Drosehn  
 writes:
> I would not say that ObjC is a quantum leap over C++.
I'd sugguest that a quantum leap is EXACTLY the right term to use for  
ObjC, at least in relation to C if not C++. This is unusual because the  
term is rarely used correctly.

A quantum leap is an almost infinitesimally small movement - the smallest  
possible move infact. A move so small that it cannot be broken down any  
further. What makes this special is that because it cannot be broken down  
the effect is a qualatitive change rather than a quantative one.

> I would just say ObjC sucks less.  Any step forward is
> worth taking, even if it isn't some giant leap.
You clearly imply that a quantum leap is a giant one, which is not true.

Objective C changes C by an almost trivial ammount - a change so small  
that it is triflingly simple to explain, and for programmers to adopt.  
That change however fundamentally changes the nature of the language.  
Quantativly the change is small, Qualativly the change is large.

In comparson C++ changes much and achives little. Quantativly the change  
is large, Qualativly the change is small.

$an

P.S. I do not want to get into a flame war about the exact behaviour of  
sub-atomic particles. There are generalities in the above I do not want to  
discuss in detail!

$
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From: "Georg Tuparev" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Converting ObjC headers to C++ headers
Date: 7 Apr 1997 16:38:38 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Hey Folks!

For all who know me -- I'm not getting crazy and I'm still with ObjC ;-)

I'm using Select OMT as an OO design / Documentation tool. To include the Foundation  
and AppKit classes, I need to convert the headers to C++ headers (the only language  
that currently is properly supported by Select). Does anyone know a tool that does  
this job? (I will promise to delete them as far as I port them to Select ;-)

Thanks 

-- georg --

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff)
Subject: Q:Hang while looking up connection after fork (PDO 4.1/Solaris and EOF 2.0)
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Hi,

I found this in the release notes of PDO 4.1/Solaris:

-----
Reference:	68675
  
Problem:	Hang while looking up connection after fork
  
Description:	If you have a DO client which tries to look up a connection  
using NSConnection's connectionWithRegisteredName:host:, then forks a process,  
and then either exits or tries to look up the connection again, the client  
will hang. If the fork is omitted, the client won't hang.
  
Workaround:	None.
-----

Exactly this is now my problem, but I need a workaround. Is this bug fixed in  
PDO 4.2?

I try to fork a process with the NSTask class (but it is the same when I use  
simply fork() and execv()) and every time the DO client will hang, when I  
remove all the DO stuff from my process the the fork works. It it the same  
when a DO server try to fork a DO client. 
It is no possible to use threads instead of own processes for my project.   I  
need really a workaround for this problem or I can't go on with the project.

Is there someone who knows a solution for this problem?

Thank you in advance.

	Juergen Moellenhoff
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From: eric@skatter.USask.Ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DPSAddFD() in OpenStep 4.x????
Date: 7 Apr 1997 16:57:08 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <5ib914$ls0@tribune.usask.ca>
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duboisj@gondolin.is.com (Josh DuBois) wrote:
>	Hey, All - 
>
>		I found an old post in an archive of this list posing the  
>following question : how do you port code that uses the DPSAddFD()  
>function from 3.3 to 4.x?  The conversion documentation is insonsistant,  
>claiming at one point that a NSPosixFileDescriptor object must be created  
>and sent a 'monitorActivity' message, then passed to NSRunLoop's  
>addPosixFileDescriptor: method.  Elsewhere in the docs, however, it is  
>claimed that NSPosixFileDescriptor has been replaced by NSFileHandle.   
>Unfortunately, NSFileHandle does not seem to have an API for doing  
>anything like 'monitorActivity' - but I can't find docs on this method so  
>I'm not sure what it does/did anyhow.
>
>	Anyone know how to handle this - where to read to find out more?   
>Anyone from NeXT listening?

I had to work through this to get the OpenStep version of MiscSerialPort and
MiscXmodem working.

I used NSFileHandle and the readInBackgroundAndNotify method.  This sends a
NSFileHandleReadCompletionNotification when data arrive.  It all seems quite
clumsy when compared to DPSAddFd, but it does seem to work.

I've sent the code to the MiscKit maintainers and put it on an ftp site here:
	ftp://skatter.usask.ca/pub/eric/MiscKit/

Have a look and let me know what you think.
-- 
Eric Norum                                 eric@skatter.usask.ca
Saskatchewan Accelerator Laboratory        Phone: (306) 966-6308
University of Saskatchewan                 FAX:   (306) 966-6058
Saskatoon, Canada.                         NeXTMail accepted.
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From: markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat, 05 Apr 1997 14:10:14 -0800
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
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In article ,
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:

> > If you override a virtual method, you have to deal with the fact that it
> > may get called at times when you don't expect it. 
> 
> Getting called when you don't expect it is one thing. Getting called when
> none of the subclasses member data is initialized is altogether different.
> This *is* a pitfall in the language and it is a nasty one (especially
> considering that all Objective-C methods are virtual).

If you're that worried about it set a hasBeenInited member variable and
set it at the end of your init routine. Don't do anything dumb in your
overrides if that flag hasn't been set. Or simply avoid doing stupid
things in *overrides*.  Do all the dumb things in private methods.

But I think you know you are arguing from a philosophical standpoint. In
practice I think it is probably seldom a problem. (as seldom - or less so
- as any of the potential pitfalls in C++)

> > If you write a class which has member pointers, its your responsibility to
> > properly manage them. 
> 
> Which you can do in C++ because ctors allow you to establish an objects
> invariants before any other methods are called. Because Objective-C does
> not have ctors it is impossible to "properly manage" member data in a
> subclass: give me an absolutely correct non-trivial subclass and I can
> break it by calling one of the overriden methods in the base classes init
> method.

Really, you can shoot yourself in the foot in Objective-C? Boy, that
really sucks. Give me an absolutely correct C++ class and I can break it
in any number of ways, too.

--->
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Sat,  5 Apr 1997 16:54:18 -0500
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 35
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	<33469e14.4329205@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 5-Apr-97 Re: Objective
C? by William Grosso@ix.netcom 
> Why ? To enable publish subscribe on key data values (the variables 
> had behavior), to make persistence simpler, to provide easy hooks for
> validation, and to allow for "undefined" to be a value (can't do that
> with an ordinary float-- every value is a number). 

You can't do that with integers, but all IEEE 754 standard floating
point numbers have not a number representation...from "man math" about
the double format:

"          Reserved operands:
               there are 2**53-2 of them, all called NaN (Not a
               Number).  Some, called Signaling NaNs, trap any
               floating-point operation performed upon them; they
               are used to mark missing or uninitialized values,
               or nonexistent elements of arrays.  The rest are
               Quiet NaNs; they are the default results of
               Invalid Operations, and propagate through subse-
               quent arithmetic operations.  If x != x then x is
               NaN; every other predicate (x > y, x = y, x < y,
               ...) is FALSE if NaN is involved.
               NOTE: Trichotomy is violated by NaN.
                    Besides being FALSE, predicates that entail
                    ordered comparison, rather than mere
                    (in)equality, signal Invalid Operation when
                    NaN is involved."

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Andrew Gierth 
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Followup-To: alt.dev.null
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>>>>> "Dash" == Dash Langan  writes:

 Dash> (Yeah, I know that I am reversing my prior stance, but hey,
 Dash> whadda ya gonna do?)

Report you to abuse@geocities.com, of course, for spamming to promote a
webpage, which is against their terms of service.

-- 
Andrew.

comp.unix.programmer FAQ: see 
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ErrorMessage "NSString stringWithCString: NULL cString" at DataBaseFetch
Date: 7 Apr 1997 17:39:03 GMT
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Hello,

I'm a newbie to EOF-Development. In fact, I'm just working
through the first Chapter of 

   Enterprise Objects FrameWork Developer's Guide

I've done all steps described to create the Studios Application
and in TestMode, the application works very well.

But when I build the application and start the corresponding
studios.app I get the ErrorMessage

	NSString stringWithCString: NULL cString

while fetching data from the DataBase (OpenBase). I suppose, there's
an NSString constructed from a zero-length-string, but because I do
not have any selfwritten-sourcecode, I do not know where to find the
mistake. Can anyone help me with that?
Thanks in advance!

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 7 Apr 1997 15:04:34 -0400
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <5ibgg3$7po@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
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Thomas (nouser@nohost.nodomain) wrote in article  

]In article <5i378c$lhc@lynx.dac.neu.edu> mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko) writes:
]
]    Umm, just to keep things in perspective - C++ is NOT good language
]    for numerical work (well, ObjC may be no better, but you brought 
]    numerical stuff up, so...).
]
]    See: S.W.Haney "Is C++ Fast Enough for Scientific Computing ?"
]    Computers in Physics, vol.8, no.6, nov/dec 1994
]
]    On complex and matrix operations C++ code is horribly slow compared
]    with Fortran and C.
]
]That's nonsense.  C++ imposes no additional overhead on existing C
]code, so whatever you implement in C, you can implement in C++ in
]exactly the same way, and you can still take advantage of many
]syntactic conveniences C++ offers for numerical code. 

 However, as soon as you try to write numerical routines in OO
 way (i.e., define matrix or vector class, and so on)
 the performance penalty kicks in.

] Fortran 77 and
]90 give you a little more performance by making unsafe assumptions;

 That is nonsence, all right.

]you can enable similar optimizations in many C/C++ compilers if
]you want to;

 It is not possible to optimize C program as well as FORTRAN.

] however, you are probably better off using optimized
]standardized inner loops like BLAS anyway.

 
-- 


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From: Drake Woodring 
Date: Sun,  6 Apr 97 12:22:40 -0600
Subject: Memory problems
Reply-To: drake@ergotech.com
Lines: 7

  I have just upgraded my OpenStep for Mach computer with 64mg of ram.  It
works great in NT, but as soon as the login screen should appear, the
screen goes blank.  I have done memory swapping with other machines, and I
know that the memory is good.  I have also swapped motherboard and
processor.  The most I can get on a Mach system is 50mg.  Is there any
memory requirements for Mach?  Will I have the same problems with the NT
version?  
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Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 14:55:44 -0600
From: Jim Redman 
Subject: Re:Buttons
Cc: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com
Lines: 14

From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
>Anyone have any ideas why my buttons behave the way they do?   BTW, the 
>method that gets called when you press of of my buttons starts up a timed 
>entry.  Could this have something to do with it?  (Its a NS 3.3 app).
Not sure I understand the whole situation or if this is the same issue.
There seems also to be a problem if you open a modal panel with a button
push then quit modal on a DO method (or a timed entry?).  The button that
created the panel will still remain pushed in.  If you run the event loop
manually and continually push in timer events, then you can get around the
problem.  

Jim


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From: "Andrew McPherson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C? (Long)
Date: 7 Apr 97 21:56:23 GMT
Organization: Central Institute of Technology
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> I'm grabbing the latest gcc (2.7.2.2) to see if it does any better.  
> You wouldn't happen to have Codewarrior for PPC and could send me the 
> code it generates would you?  It seems as if that's a fairly reasonable
> test case for code generation, at least on PowerPC systems.  On systems 
> without multiply-accumulate instructions it may not matter quite as 
> much.

I've got Codewarrior gold 9, what will you swap me for it?
(I'd like Pirates or civilization)
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From: jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff)
Subject: Hang while looking up connection after fork (PDO 4.1/Solaris and EOF 2.0)
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Hi,

I found this in the release notes of PDO 4.1/Solaris:


Reference:	68675
  
Problem:	Hang while looking up connection after fork
  
Description:	If you have a DO client which tries to look up a connection  
using NSConnection's connectionWithRegisteredName:host:, then forks a process,  
and then either exits or tries to look up the connection again, the client  
will hang. If the fork is omitted, the client won't hang.
  
Workaround:	None.


Exactly this is now my problem, but I need a workaround. Is this bug fixed in  
PDO 4.2?

I try to fork a process with the NSTask class (but it is the same when I use  
simply fork() and execv()) and every time the DO client will hang, when I  
remove all the DO stuff from my process the fork works. It is the same when a  
DO server try to fork a DO client. 
It is not possible to use threads instead of own processes for my project.

Is there someone who knows a solution for this problem?

Thank you in advance.

	Juergen Moellenhoff
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From: garage@wave.net (Village Idiot)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Game programming page
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:05:01 -0800
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I maintain a macintosh game programming page that can be found at
.

Because Apple's upcoming operating system is going to be based on NeXT I
wanted to provide some information about some of the things that they may
need to know.

Please send anything that you may feel can be used, example games, examples
of Objective C or other info, to garage@wave.net

Thank you for any help.

Kyle Ellrott
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From: Dan_Mandutianu@suite.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: C++ exceptions
Date: 7 Apr 1997 23:22:33 GMT
Organization: QuickNet ICG Inc.
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Could anybody tell me if the NeXTSTEP cc compiler handles the C++
exceptions? 

>compile test.cc
test.cc:7: warning: `catch', `throw', and `try' are all C++ reserved words
test.cc:7: parse error in method specification before `('
test.cc:9: parse error before `('
test.cc:18: confused by earlier errors, bailing out

I couldn't see any option which would cause the compiler accept
the exception syntax.

Thanks for any help.

Dan
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From: Alexandre Gonthier 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WebObjects developers wanted
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 16:36:39 +0000
Organization: terreActive LLC
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Hi there,

I am looking for freelancers potentially interested in helping us out
with developing some webobjects-based sites. I am based in the San
Francisco Bay area, with business relationships in the US, France and
Switzerland. If you're interested, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Thanks a lot,

Alex Gonthier
Vice President
terreActive LLC
####################################################################
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <7486859698032@digifix.com>
Date: 6 Apr 1997 05:00:24 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 21:16:40 -0700
Organization: Edmark
Lines: 36
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References:  <5i57e6$596@concorde.ctp.com>
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In article <5i57e6$596@concorde.ctp.com>, gtupar@ctp.com wrote:

> In article   
> jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> > In article <5i2dki$nvb$3@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:
> > void Foo::Init()
> > {
> >    // init my member data, but don't call any methods!
> >    // call [super init]
> >    // object is now constructed so can call methods
> > }
> > 
> > It seems like this might be safe iff all the derived classes follow the
> > same protocol (which I'd guess pretty much no one does).
> 
> Obviously you should at least read the manuals ....
> 
> - init
> {
>         [super init];
>         
>         // Do what you like
>         return self;
> }
> 
> Everyone does it, and there is no way to make mistakes. Basta!

Obviously you should pay more attention to the thread: after I posted a C++
example I was finally able to show Swiger and Young that there can be
problems with init methods written like this. I find it interesting to see
how difficult it is to persuade Ob-C users that there really can be
problems with init methods.

On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init methods?

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Mon, 07 Apr 1997 20:59:21 -0700
Organization: Edmark
Lines: 28
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In article
,
markeaton_@_mindspring_._com (Mark Eaton) wrote:

> > > If you write a class which has member pointers, its your responsibility to
> > > properly manage them. 
> > 

> In article ,
> jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:

> > Which you can do in C++ because ctors allow you to establish an objects
> > invariants before any other methods are called. Because Objective-C does
> > not have ctors it is impossible to "properly manage" member data in a
> > subclass: give me an absolutely correct non-trivial subclass and I can
> > break it by calling one of the overriden methods in the base classes init
> > method.
> 
> Really, you can shoot yourself in the foot in Objective-C? Boy, that
> really sucks. Give me an absolutely correct C++ class and I can break it
> in any number of ways, too.

But it's much harder for a C++ base class to break derived classes.
Assuming the base class interface doesn't change I can only think of only
one fairly esoteric way for a base class to break derived classes. OTOH
this is trivial in Obj-C.

  --Jesse
####################################################################
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From: petrich@netcom.com (Loren Petrich)
Subject: Re: Objective C? (Long)
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom
References: <5eo65r$53l@lal.interserv.com> <5gddvj$4f5@lal.interserv.com> 
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 06:48:06 GMT
Lines: 25
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In article <19970405150443877417@dialup100-3-16.swipnet.se>,
Lars Farm  wrote:

>> Now, I will be happy to eat my words if someone can show me a) how to
>> write the C++ vector routines that use operator overloading to generate
>> the 'efficient' code, or b) someone can show me a compiler that is 
>> smart enough to 'figure it out' on it's own somehow.

>You satisfied case (a) yourself and Apple's MrC[pp] deals with case (b).
>See below.

	I wonder if it is possible to extract assembly-language listings 
from Metrowerks CodeWarrior; it may be some option somewhere.

>> Are there any C++ compilers that will generate code like that using 
>> operator overloading?  If not, what's the damned point?  I don't think
>> pretty syntax is a worthy tradeoff for inefficient code.

	Actually, "pretty syntax" helps in making a program readable, 
because code that is write-only is also difficult to debug.
-- 
Loren Petrich				Happiness is a fast Macintosh
petrich@netcom.com			And a fast train
My home page: http://www.webcom.com/petrich/home.html
Mirrored at: ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/pe/petrich/home.html


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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: ErrorMessage "NSString stringWithCString: NULL cString" at DataBaseFetch
Date: 8 Apr 1997 09:42:45 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <5id3ul$450$1@news.nacamar.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: abm08.abm.de
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

> But when I build the application and start the corresponding studios.app I get the ErrorMessage

> 	NSString stringWithCString: NULL cString

> while fetching data from the DataBase (OpenBase). I suppose, there's an NSString constructed from a
> zero-length-string, but because I do not have any selfwritten-sourcecode, I do not know where to find the
> mistake. Can anyone help me with that?

Tried to set a breakpoint in gdb at stringWithCString: and then issue the `where' command?

Cheers, Ivo
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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C? (Long)
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 13:28:54 +0200
Organization: pv
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Loren Petrich  wrote:

>       I wonder if it is possible to extract assembly-language listings
> from Metrowerks CodeWarrior; it may be some option somewhere.

Project menu - "Disassemble"


-- 
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se  -  Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: C++ exceptions
Date: 8 Apr 1997 09:45:05 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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Dan,

> Could anybody tell me if the NeXTSTEP cc compiler handles the C++ exceptions? 

2.5.8 is not able to deal with exceptions.

Ivo
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From: erick@sfu.ca (Erick Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 20:52:16 -0800
Organization: Simon Fraser University
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jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph) wrote:
>Stephen Peters  writes:
>Secondly, there is a seperate method table for *each* class.  You'd
>have to have 65K methods in one class (not in the whole app!) for this
>scenario to occur.  If you're writing an class with that many mehtods,
>you really need to re-think your design.

Actually, this sort of reasoning is misleading.  While you can't guarantee a
collision without a large number of classes, you can get a dangerously high
probability of collision with remarkably few!  If the hash value is only a
16-bit quantity, and we assume the hash values are reasonably
well-randomized,
there's a 50% chance of a collision with just 300 strings.  A 32-bit
quantity fares a bit better, with the 50% mark at around 77,000.

In any case, such a collision in a sparse table would probably not be hard
to work around.  I understand from the rest of this thread that the 32-bit
hash value isn't random but a unique identifier, so the point is moot :).

 -- Erick
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C
Date: 8 Apr 1997 10:23:09 -0400
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article <5id4ls$79j$1@news.nacamar.de>, iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme) wrote:

> > I find it interesting to see how difficult it is to persuade
> > Ob-C users that there really can be problems with init methods.

> Move over to c++ if you are seeking for applause ;-)

Maybe it's because said Ob-C users haven ever actually _had_ any
problems with init methods.  There's a world of difference between
something that's theoretically possible to do, and something you
actually do in practice (even if by mistake).
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From: royalta@jenike.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Converting ObjC headers to C++ headers
Date: 8 Apr 1997 15:04:30 GMT
Organization: Shore.Net/Eco Software, Inc; (info@shore.net)
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Cc: gtupar@ctp.com

Try using JavaPlan from Lighthouse.  It understands ObjC and Java.

In <5ib7ue$34g@concorde.ctp.com> "Georg Tuparev" wrote:
> Hey Folks!
> 
> For all who know me -- I'm not getting crazy and I'm still with ObjC ;-)
> 
> I'm using Select OMT as an OO design / Documentation tool. To include the 
Foundation  
> and AppKit classes, I need to convert the headers to C++ headers (the only 
language  
> that currently is properly supported by Select). Does anyone know a tool 
that does  
> this job? (I will promise to delete them as far as I port them to Select 
;-)
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> -- georg --
> 
> 

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From: dirk@kalium.physik.TU-Berlin.DE (Dirk Schwarzhans)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help needed with gcc asm command and outb!
Date: 8 Apr 1997 15:21:59 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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Hello,

the following code is taken from an example driver:

>static inline void outb(unsigned short port, unsigned char data)
>{
>    static int	xxx;
>
>    asm volatile("outb %2,%1; lock; incl %0":
>                 "=m" (xxx):
>                 "d" (port), "a" (data), "0" (xxx):
>                 "cc");
>}

Until NS 4.0 it worked well.
But now the compiler complains about "inconsistent operand constraints 
in an `asm'". Because I don't really know how the asm directive works 
even after reading the documentation I don't know how to avoid the 
error.

Does anyone know how this code works and why the "lock" and "incl" 
statements are needed?

Any hints appreciated,

Dirk 

-- 

------------------------------------------------------------------
Dirk Schwarzhans
Email: dirk@kalium.physik.TU-Berlin.DE (MIME and NeXTMail welcome)
WWW: http://pl.physik.TU-Berlin.DE/DZ/Dirk/
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 8 Apr 1997 16:18:36 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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Jesse Jones  wrote:
> > In article   
> > jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> > > In article <5i2dki$nvb$3@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

Watch your attributions. Please don't associate me with C++ code.

> Obviously you should pay more attention to the thread: after I posted a C++
> example I was finally able to show Swiger and Young that there can be
> problems with init methods written like this. I find it interesting to see
> how difficult it is to persuade Ob-C users that there really can be
> problems with init methods.

At least in my case, I had no idea what you were talking about because:

1. You ranted about "danger" and general C++ superiority;
2. You posted C++ code, which I have real problems reading.

Now, once we figured out what you were trying to do, we realized where
your error was. Keep in mind that your code has a flaw in implementation,
and the software's failure would be due to that flaw, *not* a flaw in
the language's design. It's likely that you ran into it because it's not
your native language.

Also remeber that this is a hypothetical example which I've never run into
in n lines of ObjC code. *shrug*

> On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init methods?

ObjC exceptions are based on setjmp/longjmp. They work exactly identically
in every method or function. Actually, these exceptions are provided in
NeXT's class library, and aren't part of the language proper. They're
fairly straightforward, but do have some limitations:

NS_DURING
	[someObject methodThatProducesException];
NS_HANDLER
	printf("Crap. %s\n", [[exception exceptionReason] cString]);
NS_ENDHANDLER

"exception" is a symbol that's automatically defined by the NS_HANDLER
macro. These are fully nestable, and work across method/class/etc boundaries.
There's also NS_VOIDRETURN and NS_VALRETURN, which are macros that return
from the body of an exception handler, but I don't use them that often.

IMHO, this works pretty well, and it's pretty flexible. It's really not
designed for *anything* but error handling, which is really what the
domain of exceptions is. I've seen some C++ code that uses throw to break
out of nested loops and such.. ugh. The NeXT system isn't perfect, though,
and I'd love to hear another idea for exceptions that wouldn't require
compiler or runtime modifications.


-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: Dru Nelson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help needed with gcc asm command and outb!
Date: 8 Apr 1997 16:49:42 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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 I don't know why it no longer works (I don't have 4.0)
 However, the lock is necessary if you ever go to 
 an SMP environment (which will soon be the case)

 Dru Nelson

Dirk Schwarzhans  wrote:
> Hello,

> the following code is taken from an example driver:

> >static inline void outb(unsigned short port, unsigned char data)
> >{
> >    static int	xxx;
> >
> >    asm volatile("outb %2,%1; lock; incl %0":
> >                 "=m" (xxx):
> >                 "d" (port), "a" (data), "0" (xxx):
> >                 "cc");
> >}

> Until NS 4.0 it worked well.
> But now the compiler complains about "inconsistent operand constraints 
> in an `asm'". Because I don't really know how the asm directive works 
> even after reading the documentation I don't know how to avoid the 
> error.

> Does anyone know how this code works and why the "lock" and "incl" 
> statements are needed?

> Any hints appreciated,

> Dirk 

> -- 

> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dirk Schwarzhans
> Email: dirk@kalium.physik.TU-Berlin.DE (MIME and NeXTMail welcome)
> WWW: http://pl.physik.TU-Berlin.DE/DZ/Dirk/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Exceptions (was: Objective-C?)
Date: 8 Apr 1997 17:58:26 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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David,

you stated ...

> NS_DURING
>       [someObject methodThatProducesException];
> NS_HANDLER
>       printf("Crap. %s\n", [[exception exceptionReason] cString]);
> NS_ENDHANDLER
>
> "exception" is a symbol that's automatically defined by the NS_HANDLER
> macro. These are fully nestable, and work across method/class/etc boundaries.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

is it? I.e. can I write:

- any
{
    NS_DURING           //  1

        ....

        NS_DURING       //  2

            ....
       
        NS_HANDLER      //  2

        ....

        NS_ENDHANDLER   //  2


    NS_HANDLER          //  1

    ....

    NS_ENDHANLDER       //  1

}

I experienced problems with *that* way of nesting.


--- Ivo
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From: giammarc@provincia.ravenna.it (Mario Giammarco)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ET6000 driver for nextstep: HELP!
Date: 8 Apr 1997 17:54:36 GMT
Organization: Cineca
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Hello,
I would like to make a driver for ET6000 which is a very good graphic card 
for NeXTSTep. I would like to use the bios on the ET6000 because it is very 
good and it is vesa 2.0 compliant. I have also seen that the Virge driver 
made by Next call the s3 virge bios to setup video modes; so I have asked the 
source code to Next which replied negatively.

Have You an example of how to call vga bios routines from a nextstep class?
Have You the Virge source code?

Please reply me to giammarc@cs.unibo.it
Thank You in advance for your interest!
-- 
Mario Giammarco               |           Tel/FAX +39-545-22965
Via Calamandrei,5             |            giammarc@cs.unibo.it
48022 Lugo (RA) -- ITALY      |       rac0043@racine.ravenna.it

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue,  8 Apr 1997 15:42:24 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 35
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References:  <5i57e6$596@concorde.ctp.com>
	
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In-Reply-To: 

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 7-Apr-97 Re: Objective
C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com 
> Obviously you should pay more attention to the thread: after I posted a C++
> example I was finally able to show Swiger and Young that there can be
> problems with init methods written like this.

Your C++ example has nothing to do with the potential problem in Obj-C
from overriding a method called by a superclasses' init.

> I find it interesting to see how difficult it is to persuade Ob-C users
> that there really can be problems with init methods.

There's a reason for it: Obj-C programmers generally never, ever have
problems with the init methods.  You've come up with a possibility for
problems to occur, agreed, but it requires the programmer to override a
method without verifying that the new implementation doesn't break.

And what does this illustrate?  It shows that a programmer can write
buggy code if they screw up.  It does not show that this issue causes
maintainability problems, that Obj-C is flawed, or any of the other
conclusions you've tried to claim must follow from the existence of the
problem described above.

> On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init methods?

The same as they are everywhere else, of course.  There aren't special
cases and exceptions to the rules the way there are in C++.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Anders Bertelrud 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Q: PS drawing performance (newbie question)
Date: 8 Apr 1997 19:45:10 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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Hkan Jonsson  wrote:
>I am trying to set individual points in a subclass of View using the PS 
>operator PSrectfill. However, this is extremely slow.
>
>Is it the rectfill operator that is slow or am I doing some conceptual 
>error?
>
>I could not find any operator for setting individual points, so I am not 
>sure how this is usually done. Perhaps PSmoveto(x,y),PSlineto(x,y)?
>
>Any other tips on improving drawing performance?
>
>Perhaps these pixelwise manipulations are better done using something 
>else than PS?

When using PostScript operators such as moveto, lineto, and rectfill there is no notion of a "pixel". Rather, 
PostScript uses a floating-point coordinate system that permits easy scaling and rotating. Operations such as 
rectfill are therefore not optimized for quickly drawing individual pixels.

By default, the scale of an NSView's coordinate system is set up so that one PostScript unit is exactly equal 
to one screen pixel.

One option is to allocate an NSBitmapImageRep object and draw into its pixel buffer. You could then use the 
bitmap's drawAtPoint: method to copy the image to the view. A drawback with this approach is that you have to 
set bitmap memory values yourself, so you would need to take things like bits-per-pixel and bytes-per-row into 
account. You can "hide away" these details, though, by subclassing NSBitmapImageRep and implementing a method 
to set an individual pixel to a particular color.

If you do decide to use PostScript to draw many individual rectangles (instead of creating a bitmap), it is 
better to do so using a single NSRectFillList call than using many PSrectfill calls. NSRectFillList takes an 
array of rectangles and draws them all at once. Generally this is still slower than using a bitmap if you are 
plotting many pixels.

(These comments assume you are using OPENSTEP. If you're using NeXTSTEP 3.3 or earlier, the concepts are the 
same but the names are slightly different. In particular the prefix NS is "NX" in NeXTSTEP 3.3 and earlier).

Hope this helps,

Anders Bertelrud
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: how to debug mouse-moving
Date: Tue,  8 Apr 1997 16:10:17 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 3-Apr-97 how to debug
mouse-moving by zizi zhao@worldnet.att.n 
> i want to run gdb to see what is going on with my mouse-moving event
> in a view frame step by step. but, the mouse has to leave the frame 
> to click the  button on the [gdb panel]. 
>  
> is it possible to debug mouse-moving in NEXTSTEP 3.3?

You can't easily do so since you end up moving the mouse, as you've
discovered.  Probably, the easiest thing would be to add printf's within
your code to display any variables you're interested in to see what is
going on.

It's a little more primitive, but then, your mind is the best debugging
tool you have, not gdb or anything else.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue,  8 Apr 1997 19:58:57 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 3-Apr-97 Re: Objective C?
by David Young@ace.net 
> > Obj-C does not have that limitation because all of the Obj-C method
> > information (equivalent to C++ virtual functions) is stored with the
> > class or "factory" object, and not with instantiations (or instances) of
> > that class.
>  
> Yeah, but isn't he writing to an unitialized pointer anyway?
> When init calls foo, and you've overridden foo, he deferences his
> pointer which isn't yet initialized and assigns a value to it. He's
> not going to trash the method table, but he'll trash something.

If you've got an ivar which is a pointer, and you haven't initialized
that pointer yet before calling [super init], and one of the superclass
implementations of -init calls [self foo], and you've overridden -foo to
use that pointer ivar, and you don't check to see whether the ivar
hasn't been initialized, then yes, that's going to be a problem.

-Chuck
 

         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: mshores@iastate.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: DriverKit Problem - intr (again)
Date: 8 Apr 1997 19:50:49 GMT
Organization: Iowa State University, Ames, Iowa, USA
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Summary: DriverKit problem - getting an intr: 126 message unexpectedly...
Keywords: driver kit interrupt programming kernel
X-Newsreader: Kiwi [version .11]

Hello all,
	Now that I have had time to look more carefully at the driver
I am writing, I figured out that the "Unexpected Arithmetic
Exception (3, 0, 0)" was occuring only when I was successfully 
able to register the driver (no detection errors etc).  Now,
the error has changed slightly.  It now claims that there is some
sort of interrupt occuring "intr 168", and it keeps repeating that
message.  Considering the fact that I am not using any interrupt
lines (but I AM using the paralell port drivers), this might
indicate that NeXT is excepting some sort of interupt handler.
Perhaps it is setting a default (IODirectDevice or IOEISADirect
Device classes)???  Any suggestions?  Is there any way to insure
that the kernel will NOT expect an int handler or something?


Matt

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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 20:35:14 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article <5idr4s$bo$2@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> At least in my case, I had no idea what you were talking about because:
> 
> 1. You ranted about "danger" and general C++ superiority;
> 2. You posted C++ code, which I have real problems reading.

I did not rant and nowhere in this thread have I claimed that C++ is
superior to Obj-C. Sorry about the C++, but it was very basic and I don't
know what else I could have done.

> Now, once we figured out what you were trying to do, we realized where
> your error was. Keep in mind that your code has a flaw in implementation,
> and the software's failure would be due to that flaw, *not* a flaw in
> the language's design. It's likely that you ran into it because it's not
> your native language.

I did not actually run into this problem writing code: I deduced it from my
limited knowledge of how Ob-C works. 

> Also remeber that this is a hypothetical example which I've never run into
> in n lines of ObjC code. *shrug*

OK

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 20:54:45 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article , Charles William Swiger
 wrote:

> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 7-Apr-97 Re: Objective
> C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com 

> > I find it interesting to see how difficult it is to persuade Ob-C users
> > that there really can be problems with init methods.
> 
> There's a reason for it: Obj-C programmers generally never, ever have
> problems with the init methods.  You've come up with a possibility for
> problems to occur, agreed, but it requires the programmer to override a
> method without verifying that the new implementation doesn't break.

No, it requires anyone adding a method call to an init method to verify
that no subclasses override that method. This is (theoretically at least)
horrible since there can be a huge number of subclasses. Of course the
answer, as you pointed out, is to hide any functions you call from init
method and educate Ob-C users about this pitfall.

> And what does this illustrate?  It shows that a programmer can write
> buggy code if they screw up.  It does not show that this issue causes
> maintainability problems, that Obj-C is flawed, or any of the other
> conclusions you've tried to claim must follow from the existence of the
> problem described above.

The only point I'm trying to make is that constructors provide more safety
than Obj-C init methods and I think I've demonstrated that.

> > On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init methods?
> 
> The same as they are everywhere else, of course.  There aren't special
> cases and exceptions to the rules the way there are in C++.

How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init methods?

  --Jesse
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From: rjgamin@ix.netcom.com   (Ron Gemeinhardt)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: This Y2K Solution w/o Testing is Better Than Nothing
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 04:46:28 GMT
Organization: Not much, but I work well that way
Lines: 19
Sender: rjgamin@skizilla.nj.fake
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In <199704071050.MAA09633@basement.replay.com>, dashlangan@geocities.com (Dash Langan) writes:
>
>After all, with time constraints and considering the state of
>affairs in most installations, you better not waste your time
>with testing.

Considering the state of affairs in most installations, you'd better
well remember:  if you haven't SEEN it work, it DOESN'T work.

Everyone's free to make their own decisions, but if your statement reflects
your business practices I can guarantee you'll get none of my business, nor
any I might recommend.

____________________________________________________________
Ron Gemeinhardt             com.netcom.ix@rjgamin -- get it?
                          Only junk mail goes to "Occupant!"
Kitman's Law, updated:
Pure drivel tends to drive off the Internet ordinary drivel.

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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective-C?
Date: 9 Apr 1997 08:03:42 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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> How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init methods?

This indeed seems a problem. If -init fails for some reason, it cannot
easily free the memory it occupies. (Ofcourse it can release memory
contained objects are using by freeing this objects.)

Say, if oo= [[MyClass alloc] init] fails, you are usually left with
a oo variable set to nil and a memory leak.

Again, that's not a problem in practice ;-)

--- Cheers, Ivo



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From: Yoo Chul Chung 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Exceptions (was: Objective-C?)
Date: 09 Apr 1997 17:13:17 +0900
Organization: Seoul National University, Republic of Korea
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iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme) writes:
> is it? I.e. can I write:
> 
> - any
> {
>     NS_DURING           //  1
>         ....
>         NS_DURING       //  2
>             ....
>         NS_HANDLER      //  2
>         ....
>         NS_ENDHANDLER   //  2
>     NS_HANDLER          //  1
>     ....
>     NS_ENDHANLDER       //  1
> }
> 
> I experienced problems with *that* way of nesting.


It apparently works with the GNUstep Base Library, and I find it
difficult to believe that OpenStep's Foundation Kit (which should be
mature code) might be buggy.

-- 
Yoo C. Chung 
School of Electrical Engineering, Seoul National University
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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Exceptions (was: Objective-C?)
Date: 9 Apr 1997 08:33:30 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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Yoo Chul Chung  wrote:
>iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme) writes:
>> is it? I.e. can I write:
>> 
>> - any
>> {
>>     NS_DURING           //  1
>>         ....
>>         NS_DURING       //  2
>>             ....
>>         NS_HANDLER      //  2
>>         ....
>>         NS_ENDHANDLER   //  2
>>     NS_HANDLER          //  1
>>     ....
>>     NS_ENDHANLDER       //  1
>> }
>> 
>> I experienced problems with *that* way of nesting.
>
>
>It apparently works with the GNUstep Base Library, and I find it
>difficult to believe that OpenStep's Foundation Kit (which should be
>mature code) might be buggy.
>

Thanks. I'll give it a try again. Actually we use the FoundationLib
of NS 3.3. If you find it hard to believe that OpenStep's Foundation Kit
is buggy, take a look at archiving/unarchiving objects (FK 3.3).
Boy, does that leak ...

--- Ivo



####################################################################
From: fukuda@dma.epfl.ch (Komei Fukuda)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling gcc (version 2.7.2) under NS3.3/ Dev3.2
References: <5i124d$eh1@portal.gmu.edu>
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Date: 9 Apr 97 09:55:49 GMT
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In article <5i124d$eh1@portal.gmu.edu> rraman@site.gmu.edu (Ravishankar  
Ramanathan (CSI)) writes:
> [ Article crossposted from comp.sys.next.software ]
> [ Author was Ravishankar Ramanathan (CSI) ]
> [ Posted on 3 Apr 1997 19:47:17 GMT ]
> 
> Hello all:
> 
> I was trying to get gcc compile under NS 3.3User/ 3.2Dev and am running
> into trouble with move-if-change. There is a warning in the makefile  
about
> move-if-change and how it could cause problems in Sun. 

Do you have the current directory "." in your default path?
If not, the executable "move-if-change" won't be found
and you will get an error message.  I encountered this innocent
error when I used the default user setting of freshly
installed NEXTSTEP3.3: check the file .cshrc

set path=(/etc /usr/etc /usr/ucb /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin  
/usr/sybase/bin /LocalApps /NextApps /NextAdmin /NextDeveloper/Demos)

At least you need to add "." as

set path=(. /etc /usr/etc /usr/ucb /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin  
/usr/sybase/bin /LocalApps /NextApps /NextAdmin /NextDeveloper/Demos)

Cheers, Komei
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From: oschirr@abm12.abm.de (Oliver Schirrmeister)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling gcc (version 2.7.2) under NS3.3/ Dev3.2
Date: 9 Apr 1997 11:55:04 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
Lines: 35
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fukuda@dma.epfl.ch (Komei Fukuda) wrote:
>In article <5i124d$eh1@portal.gmu.edu> rraman@site.gmu.edu (Ravishankar  
>Ramanathan (CSI)) writes:
>> [ Article crossposted from comp.sys.next.software ]
>> [ Author was Ravishankar Ramanathan (CSI) ]
>> [ Posted on 3 Apr 1997 19:47:17 GMT ]
>> 
>> Hello all:
>> 
>> I was trying to get gcc compile under NS 3.3User/ 3.2Dev and am running
>> into trouble with move-if-change. There is a warning in the makefile  
>about
>> move-if-change and how it could cause problems in Sun. 
>
>Do you have the current directory "." in your default path?
>If not, the executable "move-if-change" won't be found
>and you will get an error message.  I encountered this innocent
>error when I used the default user setting of freshly
>installed NEXTSTEP3.3: check the file .cshrc
>
>set path=(/etc /usr/etc /usr/ucb /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin  
>/usr/sybase/bin /LocalApps /NextApps /NextAdmin /NextDeveloper/Demos)
>
>At least you need to add "." as
>
>set path=(. /etc /usr/etc /usr/ucb /bin /usr/bin /usr/local/bin  
>/usr/sybase/bin /LocalApps /NextApps /NextAdmin /NextDeveloper/Demos)
>
>Cheers, Komei


binaries of gcc-2.7.2.2 are in
ftp.cs.TU-Berlin.De/pub/NeXT/developer/languages

Oliver
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From: oschirr@abm12.abm.de (Oliver Schirrmeister)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: memory leak DO/foundation
Date: 9 Apr 1997 11:56:30 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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Hi,

I'm trying to send an NSData-Object with Distributed Objects to
a remote server (I'm using NextStep 3.3 with the foundation-kit).
The server implements the following procedure:

- (oneway void) processDataWithNSData: (in NSData *) any;


The client uses the following procedure to send some data (the
procedure is called from the menu bar):


- callServerNSData:sender
{

    NSData          *data=nil;
    NSString        *string;
    NSString        *fn        = @"/tmp/toBeSend";


    data = [NSData dataWithContentsOfFile: fn];


    if (!data)
    {
        string= @"Put file with name `toBeSend\' in /tmp folder";
        data= [NSArchiver archivedDataWithRootObject: string];
    }

    [server processDataWithNSData: data];

    return self;
}

Calling the method results in a memory leak (on client side). The size
seems to be the size of the file in /tmp/toBeSend.
data and string will be autoreleased because I call callServerNSData
from the menu and the main event loop will release the autoreleasepool.

How can I avoid the memory leak?

Thanks

Oliver
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From: izumi@pinoko.berkeley.edu (Izumi Ohzawa)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DPSAddFD() in OpenStep 4.x????
Date: 7 Apr 1997 18:31:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5ibeh5$65d@agate.berkeley.edu>
References: <5i99rl$79d@medusa.is.com>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: moica.berkeley.edu

In article <5i99rl$79d@medusa.is.com> duboisj@gondolin.is.com (Josh DuBois) writes:

>How do you port code that uses the DPSAddFD()  
>function from 3.3 to 4.x?  
 ....
>Unfortunately, NSFileHandle does not seem to have an API for doing  
>anything like 'monitorActivity' - but I can't find docs on this method so  
>I'm not sure what it does/did anyhow.

> Anyone know how to handle this - where to read to find out more?   

You should take a look at:

http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/OpenStep_Examples

In there, you will find ToolHandle by Steve Nygard.
It uses NSFileHandle to talk to various inet ports.  It talks to  
date, echo and will even retrieve a file from a web site using http.

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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Q: PS drawing performance (newbie question)
Date: 9 Apr 1997 12:26:51 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
Sender: rp9@talisker.ohm.york.ac.uk
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On 8 Apr 1997 19:45:10 GMT, Anders Bertelrud  wrote:
> Hekan Jonsson  wrote:
> >I am trying to set individual points in a subclass of View using the PS 
> >operator PSrectfill. However, this is extremely slow.
> >
> >Is it the rectfill operator that is slow or am I doing some conceptual 
> >error?
> >
> >I could not find any operator for setting individual points, so I am not 
> >sure how this is usually done. Perhaps PSmoveto(x,y),PSlineto(x,y)?
> >
> >Any other tips on improving drawing performance?
> >
> >Perhaps these pixelwise manipulations are better done using something 
> >else than PS?

the method recommended by the nextstep display postscript book
is to use the postscript font machinery to do the work.
i found this method to be quite complex, but it does work, and
it is fast.

i used the following PSW file to set up the context:

>defineps PSWxyshow(float X, Y; char *str; float numstring XYCoords[j]; int j)
>  X Y moveto
>  (str) XYCoords xyshow
>endps
>
>defineps PSWctlpointset(char *fontname; float size)
>  /fontname size selectfont
>endps
>
>defineps PSWmakectlpoints(char *fontname)
>  8 dict dup begin
>  /FontName /fontname def
>  /FontType 3 def
>  /FontMatrix [.001 0 0 .001 0 0] def		% standard font matrix
>
>  /FontBBox [-500 -500 500 500] def
>
>  % create the encoding array and fill it up
>  % with undefined characters
>  /Encoding 256 array def
>    0 1 255 {Encoding exch /.notdef put} for
>
>  % set up the encoding for the control point font:
>  % 'a' is a filled in point
>  % 'b' is the interior of 'a' (for erasing the centre)
>  Encoding
>    dup (a) 0 get /FilledPoint put
>    (b) 0 get /Interior put
>
>  /CharProcs 3 dict def
>  CharProcs begin
>    /.notdef {} def
>    /FilledPoint
>    {
>      -400 -400 moveto
>      0 800 rlineto
>      800 0 rlineto
>      0 -800 rlineto
>      closepath
>      fill
>    } def
>    /Interior
>    {
>      -200 -200 moveto
>      0 400 rlineto
>      400 0 rlineto
>      0 -400 rlineto
>      closepath
>      fill
>    } def
>  end
>
>  /BuildChar	% font dict, char code
>  {
>    500 0 -500 -500 500 500 setcachedevice
>    exch begin
>      %true setstrokeadjust
>      Encoding exch get
>      CharProcs exch get
>      exec
>    end
>  } def
>  end
>  /fontname exch definefont pop
>endps

this defines two characters - a filled point, and a hollow
point, so that i can have blinking points.

to initialise the postscript context, call the following:

>#define FONTNAME "ControlPoint"
>
>static void ctldraw_init(void)
>{
>  PSWmakectlpoints(FONTNAME);
>}

then to print a load of points, first call setptbuf with all the
points to be plotted:

>#define OUTSIDE_CHR 'a'
>#define INSIDE_CHR 'b'
>
>static NXPoint startpt;
>
>static int buffer_len = 0;      /* length of the following buffers */
>static float *ptbuf = 0;
>static int ptbufsz;
>static int numpoints;
>static char *chrs = 0;
>
>static void setptbuf(NXPoint *pts, int npts)
>{
>  int idx;
>  NXPoint last;
>
>  numpoints = npts;
>  if (buffer_len < numpoints)
>  {
>    buffer_len = numpoints + 10;
>    ptbuf = realloc(ptbuf, buffer_len * sizeof(*ptbuf) * 2);
>    chrs = realloc(chrs, buffer_len + 1);
>  }
>
>  last = startpt = pts[0];
>
>  idx = 0;
>  for (i = 1; i < numpoints; i++) {
>  {
>    NXPoint curr = pts[i];
>    ptbuf[idx++] = curr.x - last.x;
>    ptbuf[idx++] = curr.y - last.y;
>    last = curr;
>  }
>  /* dummy last move */
>  ptbuf[idx++] = 0;
>  ptbuf[idx++] = 0;
>  ptbufsz = idx;
>}

then call the following with the character to be plotted:

>static void doplot(int ch)
>{
>  memset(chrs, ch, numpoints);
>  chrs[numpoints] = 0;
>  PSWxyshow(startpt.x, startpt.y, chrs, ptbuf, ptbufsz);
>}

the above has been modified from my original source slightly,
so it'll probably have some errors in, but the gist is there.

yes, it's hideously over complex for the functionality it provides,
but this is one of display postscript's weakest areas, and
the above is quite fast.

  cheers.
    rog.

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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling gcc (version 2.7.2) under NS3.3/ Dev3.2
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 07:44:49 -0700
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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X-FTP: ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/
X-URL: http://www.next.peak.org/~luomat


Intel and NeXT binaries can also be found here, with cross-compiling
compatibilities:

ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/apps/devtools/gcc.2.7.2.2.I.b.tar.gz

ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/apps/devtools/gcc.2.7.2.2.N.b.tar.gz        

TjL

-- 
Timothy J. Luoma   Submissions Coordinator for PEAK
Personal NeXT Page: 	http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
PEAK NeXT FTP:		ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/
PEAK Web Access:	http://www.peak.org/next/



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From: (Robert Worne) rworne@primenet.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Converting ObjC headers to C++ headers
Date: 9 Apr 1997 04:11:01 -0700
Organization: I'm not organized!
Lines: 24
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X-Posted-By: @198.68.36.156 (rworne)
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

"Georg Tuparev"  wrote:
>Hey Folks!
>
>For all who know me -- I'm not getting crazy and I'm still with ObjC ;-)
>
>I'm using Select OMT as an OO design / Documentation tool. To include the 
Foundation  
>and AppKit classes, I need to convert the headers to C++ headers (the only 
language  
>that currently is properly supported by Select). Does anyone know a tool 
that does  
>this job? (I will promise to delete them as far as I port them to Select ;-)
>

This brings up an interesting question... I need to convert C++ headers to 
ObjC.  Any help for me?  Or is banging my head on the desk the only solution? 
:)

-- 
Robert Worne NeXT-OS/2-MacOS 26-52-78-CV-O2-Vec-MV-TI-C64-TG16-SMS-Jag
//------------------------------------------------------------------//
Starving CS Undergrad: "Sorry, I don't do Windows! I'd rather starve!"
//------------------------------------------------------------------//
Visit my videogame collecting site!   http://www.primenet.com/~rworne/
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From: dashlangan@geocities.com (Dash Langan)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Date: 9 Apr 1997 20:39:21 +0200
Organization: Posting Service
Message-ID: <199704091839.UAA06438@basement.replay.com>
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Now, pay attention:  I said that Y2K is rapidly becoming an
untouchable problem; I did not say that Y2K is becoming an
unsolvable problem.

The reason I am characterizing Y2K thus is because too much
time is passing.  Capable programmers have enough intelligence
to turn down all Y2K job offers no matter how much green is
waved under their noses.  This is because they are savvy enough
to deduce that any installation which has waited this long to
address Y2K is probably plagued with untenable human resource
problems, particularly in management.

What capable programmer is going to be willing to leave his
current job to take the big risk of walking into a pit of an
environment where there is inept management, gross incompetence,
and the prospect of having to face 20,000,000 lines of code
that have to be converted yesterday?  I have witnessed situations
which were not to the liking of programmers who walked within
short order, sometimes in less than a day, and capable programmers
are the ones most likely to do so.

Now where will this leave installations that are pits of
environments?  Up the creek, that's where.  But there is
an alternative.

The work can be sent to India where people are very well
experienced with things of an untouchable nature.

We can have the "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K correction
code inserted into your programs with or w/o testing as desired!
No problem!  Reasonable rates!

The "Open and Shut Window Technique" can be found at url:
http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

If you have not seen the latest version of this web page which
includes the absolute value function in the sample code snippet,
then you are advised to pay a revisit.

Comments to: dashlangan@geocities.com

Dash Langan
--
We're not yellow.  We go anywhere.

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From: chris@wise-04.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Christian Kluge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to get and interpret events before they are translated by Application?
Date: 9 Apr 1997 16:18:23 GMT
Organization: TU Dresden (URZ)
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Hi!

I#m just programming NeXTSTEP by around a week. Now I have to create a 
project, which is able to encode and display the contents of the incoming 
NXEvent.But I have no idea, where to place the new event loop, which enables 
me to interpret NXEvent before Application will do this. The implementation 
of the event loop, with the help of getNextEvent itself is almost clear.
If could help me please awnser this letter.

Thanks
Christian  
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 9 Apr 1997 17:18:05 GMT
Lines: 30
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On 04/08/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
>
>The only point I'm trying to make is that constructors provide more 
>safety than Obj-C init methods and I think I've demonstrated that.

Probably true, but they are also far less flexible, as I pointed out in 
previous posts.  I'd rather have the flexibility than 'safety' in this 
case.

>> > On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init 
methods?
>> 
>> The same as they are everywhere else, of course.  There aren't 
special
>> cases and exceptions to the rules the way there are in C++.
>
>How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init methods?

Well that depends.  In practice there isn't really a big need to throw 
exceptions in init methods simply because there isn't a problem of not 
having a return value.  If something goes wrong, you typically just 
free the object and return nil.  If you need to throw an exception then 
you could also free the object before throwing the exception.  However,  
if some method that you call in your init method throws an exception 
and you don't catch it in your init, it's very likely that you may wind 
up with a partially initialized object and/or a memory leak.  I have no 
idea how often that problem actually occurs in Objective C, if ever.

-Ken

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From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Subject: Re: How to get and interpret events before they are translated by Application?
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Reply-To: allan@cetus.ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Cc: chris@wise-04.wiwi.tu-dresden.de
Organization: ALI Technologies
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:21:32 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.programmer Christian Kluge wrote:
> I'm just programming NeXTSTEP by around a week. Now I have to create a 
> project, which is able to encode and display the contents of the incoming 
> NXEvent.But I have no idea, where to place the new event loop, which 
enables 
> me to interpret NXEvent before Application will do this. The implementation 
> of the event loop, with the help of getNextEvent itself is almost clear.

(Note this information is for NeXTSTEP not OPENSTEP)

The best way to intercept an event before the application can act
on it is to subclass the Application object and override the 
sendEvent: method.

For example the following hack will make pressing the Escape 
key look like it the command-button is also being held down
(I did this in one of my apps to handle a special case where
the UI didn't work quite right otherwise).

@implementation HackedApplication

- sendEvent:(NXEvent *)theEvent
{
    // If the event is a key-down event and it is the Escape key...
    if (theEvent->type EQ NX_KEYDOWN AND 
	theEvent->data.key.charCode EQ ESCAPE_KEY_CODE)
    {
	// Change the flags so it looks like the command-key is also down.
	// We do this so that we can have greedy views like TextFields
	// not eat the Escape key and then do nothing useful with it.
	
	theEvent->flags = (theEvent->flags) | NX_COMMANDMASK;
    }

    // Pass the possibly modified event onto the usual method.
    [super sendEvent:theEvent];

} // sendEvent:

@end

Once you have done this and added HackedApplication to your
Project, just go to the Project's Attributes screen in PB and
change the application type to HackedApplication from Application.
Recompile and you should be ready to rock.

--
Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan        e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca
ALI Technologies                        Voice: 604.279.5422 x 317
Richmond, Canada                        Fax:   604.279.5468
                       * NeXT and MIME mail welcome *
		       
     "Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine."

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From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Subject: Re: How to get and interpret events before they are translated by Application?
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
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Cc: allan@ali.bc.ca
Organization: ALI Technologies
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 19:33:31 GMT
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Hi,

I'm following up my own post to correct a cut & paste induced
typo.  My sendEvent: example should have a 'return' infront
of the super sendEvent: call, as in:

    // Pass the possibly modified event onto the usual method.
    return [super sendEvent:theEvent];

ciao
---
Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan        e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca
ALI Technologies                        Voice: 604.279.5422 x 317
Richmond, Canada                        Fax:   604.279.5468
                       * NeXT and MIME mail welcome *
		       
     "Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine."

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From: Tom Hageman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Apr 1997 01:05:24 +0200
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Lines: 68
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In article ,  
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:
> In article , Charles William Swiger
>  wrote:
> > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 7-Apr-97 Re: Objective
> > C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com
[...]
> > > On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init methods?
> >
> > The same as they are everywhere else, of course.  There aren't special
> > cases and exceptions to the rules the way there are in C++.
>
> How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init methods?

One way is to explicitly intercept exceptions, and handle the
cleanup in the exception handler, like this:

(example assumes OPENSTEP FoundationKit):

- initWithFoo:(id)aFoo
{
	if (self = [super init])
	{
		NS_DURING
		{
			[self doSomethingThatMayGenerateAnException:aFoo];
			// ...
		}
		NS_HANDLER
		{
			// cleanup ourselves.
			[self release];
			// re-raise the exception.
			[localException raise];
		}
		NS_ENDHANDLER		
	}
	return self;
}

An alternative is to use the autorelease mechanism to have the
object kind of ``conditionally allocated'' while it is initializing,
like this:

- initWithFoo:(id)aFoo
{
	if (self = [super init])
	{
		[self autorelease];	// deferred release.
		
		[self doSomethingThatMayGenerateAnException:aFoo];
		//...
		
		// initialization was successful, so cancel (auto)release:
		[self retain];
	}
	return self;
}

If the initialization fails due to an exception, the object will
be deallocated by the autorelease mechanism.

--
__/__/__/__/  Tom Hageman     [NeXTmail/Mime OK]
  __/ __/_/      IC Group   (work)
 __/__/__/        "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable
__/  _/_/                    from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled

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From: robert@visgen.com (Robert Osborne)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DPSAddFD() in OpenStep 4.x????
Date: 9 Apr 1997 18:05:27 -0400
Organization: Visible Genetics Inc.
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In article <5i9ggi$of6@news.next.com>, Joe Keenan  wrote:
#In article <5i99rl$79d@medusa.is.com> duboisj@gondolin.is.com (Josh DuBois)  
#writes:
#> Unfortunately, NSFileHandle does not seem to have an API for doing  
#> anything like 'monitorActivity' - but I can't find docs on this method so  
#> I'm not sure what it does/did anyhow.
#
#I think you want to open a file handle for your data source, then send the  
#NSFileHandle object a readInBackgroundAndNotify (or variant) message.  The  
#object that's interested in "monitoring" the file handle registers to get  
#NSFileHandleReadCompletionNotification messages from the default  
#NotificationCenter.

Concidently enough I started working on exactly this problem today.
You solution is how I'm doing it.  Remember that readInBackgroundAndNotify
is a one shot deal,  if you're monitoring a continous data flow or
any data that's bigger than the system buffer size you'll have to
chain the notifies (ie.  call readInBackgroundAndNotify again in the
observer method). 

Rob.
-- 
Robert A. Osborne,  robert@visgen.com
"It's now safe to turn off your computer."
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From: rraman@site.gmu.edu (Ravishankar Ramanathan (CSI))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling gcc (version 2.7.2) under NS3.3/ Dev3.2
Date: 10 Apr 1997 00:17:19 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA
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Thanks every one!!

-Ravi
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From: steve wolfe 
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 20:29:49 -0400
Organization: epix Internet Services
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Dash Langan wrote:
> 
> Now, pay attention:  I said that Y2K is rapidly becoming an
> untouchable problem; I did not say that Y2K is becoming an
> unsolvable problem.
> 
> The reason I am characterizing Y2K thus is because too much
> time is passing.  Capable programmers have enough intelligence
> to turn down all Y2K job offers no matter how much green is
> waved under their noses.  This is because they are savvy enough
> to deduce that any installation which has waited this long to
> address Y2K is probably plagued with untenable human resource
> problems, particularly in management.
> 
> What capable programmer is going to be willing to leave his
> current job to take the big risk of walking into a pit of an
> environment where there is inept management, gross incompetence,
> and the prospect of having to face 20,000,000 lines of code
> that have to be converted yesterday?  I have witnessed situations
> which were not to the liking of programmers who walked within
> short order, sometimes in less than a day, and capable programmers
> are the ones most likely to do so.
> 
> Now where will this leave installations that are pits of
> environments?  Up the creek, that's where.  But there is
> an alternative.
> 
> The work can be sent to India where people are very well
> experienced with things of an untouchable nature.
> 
> We can have the "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K correction
> code inserted into your programs with or w/o testing as desired!
> No problem!  Reasonable rates!
> 
> The "Open and Shut Window Technique" can be found at url:
> http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/
> 
> If you have not seen the latest version of this web page which
> includes the absolute value function in the sample code snippet,
> then you are advised to pay a revisit.
> 
> Comments to: dashlangan@geocities.com
> 
> Dash Langan
> --
> We're not yellow.  We go anywhere.

Dash, 

I really don't have any problem with you advertising via news groups for
your programming endevours, but many have said before, and I'll say
again: COBOL programmers are the predominant readers of this newsgroup.
Headhunters post here frequently, but do they read? Mostly I'd say no.
Why not take an add out in CIO and advertise your wares? This is
probably not the appropriate forum. 

Steve

-- 
****************************************************************************
email  : prgsdw@epix.net
url    : http://www.epix.net/~prgsdw
****************************************************************************
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From: shaffer@durer.phyast.pitt.edu (C. David Shaffer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOF1.x and mSQL question
Date: 27 Mar 1997 16:21:21 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 46
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: durer.phyast.pitt.edu

Hello,

I decided to play around with EOF a little since it came with my NS3.3
academic bundle.  I created a simple mSQL database with a few tables
and filled the tables with data.  I also wired a simple app (just
NXTableViews) in IB using an EOmodel which involved a direct map from
the DB to the default Enterprise Objects plus a couple of simple
Associations.  Now the problem...

If I view a row (in test mode in IB) and then make changes to the row
via the msql monitor, I can't seem to get my EO's to update.  Even
quiting IB and starting again gives me the "old data".  The only way
to get the modified data seems to be to kill msqld and start it again.
I tracked down the problem by using the error logging capabilities in
mSQL but I don't understand my results.  A query formed by EOF looks
as follows:

[msqld] Query = SELECT t0.ClassName, t0.EntryNumber, t0.Score,
t0.StudentSSN, t0.UnitDesc FROM Scores t0 WHERE t0.ClassName =
'MAT116-971' AND t0.StudentSSN = 111111111

If I duplicate the query in the mSQL monitor I get the same
(erroneous) results as EOF does.  If, however, I form the query

select ClassName, EntryNumber, Score, StudentSSN, UnitDesc from Scores
where ClassName='MAT116-971' and StudentSSN=111111111

then I get the correct "updated" record from the DB.  The problem
seems to be in the "t0" part of the query.  So my questions: Is the
behavior correct?  Is there some internal mechanism that I must use in
EOF (besides fetch:) to get it to recall the current snapshow of the
DB?

Please pardon these beginner questions but I did read all of the docs
(well, almost all of the docs)... Thanks for any suggestions or info!

David Shaffer

-- 
David Shaffer
Department of Physics
Wayne State College
Wayne, NE  68787
shaffer@phyast.pitt.edu


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From: Yoo Chul Chung 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Exceptions (was: Objective-C?)
Date: 10 Apr 1997 13:22:01 +0900
Organization: Seoul National University, Republic of Korea
Lines: 17
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	<5ifk8q$ng5$1@news.nacamar.de>
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iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme) writes:

> 
> Thanks. I'll give it a try again. Actually we use the FoundationLib
> of NS 3.3. If you find it hard to believe that OpenStep's Foundation Kit
> is buggy, take a look at archiving/unarchiving objects (FK 3.3).
> Boy, does that leak ...
> 

Actually, I was saying that it was hard to believe that OpenStep's
implementation could be buggy in respect with nested exceptions, which
probably are used a lot.  I should have been a little more specific.
But then again, who knows with code from a commercial vendor? ;)

-- 
Yoo C. Chung 
School of Electrical Engineering, Seoul National University
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 21:22:13 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article <5igj0d$t7i$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:

> On 04/08/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
> >
> >The only point I'm trying to make is that constructors provide more 
> >safety than Obj-C init methods and I think I've demonstrated that.
> 
> Probably true, but they are also far less flexible, as I pointed out in 
> previous posts.  I'd rather have the flexibility than 'safety' in this 
> case.

But in this specific case Obj-C's extra flexibility gives you nothing but
an opportunity to shoot yourself in the foot. Is there ever a case where
you want to call a subclasses method before it's had a chance to initialize
itself?

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 21:26:53 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article <9704092226.AA02800@basil.icce.rug.nl>, tom@basil.icce.rug.nl wrote:

> In article ,  
> jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:
> > In article , Charles William Swiger
> >  wrote:
> > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 7-Apr-97 Re: Objective
> > > C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com
> [...]
> > > > On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init methods?
> > >
> > > The same as they are everywhere else, of course.  There aren't special
> > > cases and exceptions to the rules the way there are in C++.
> >
> > How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init methods?
> 
> One way is to explicitly intercept exceptions, and handle the
> cleanup in the exception handler, like this:
> 
> (example assumes OPENSTEP FoundationKit):
> 
> - initWithFoo:(id)aFoo
> {
>         if (self = [super init])
>         {
>                 NS_DURING
>                 {
>                         [self doSomethingThatMayGenerateAnException:aFoo];
>                         // ...
>                 }
>                 NS_HANDLER
>                 {
>                         // cleanup ourselves.
>                         [self release];
>                         // re-raise the exception.
>                         [localException raise];
>                 }
>                 NS_ENDHANDLER           
>         }
>         return self;
> }

Won't the release method wind up calling free? If this is true we're back
to calling subclass methods without first initializing the subclass. Is it
possible to specify which free method to call and then deallocate the
object?

> An alternative is to use the autorelease mechanism to have the
> object kind of ``conditionally allocated'' while it is initializing,
> like this:
> 
> - initWithFoo:(id)aFoo
> {
>         if (self = [super init])
>         {
>                 [self autorelease];     // deferred release.
>                 
>                 [self doSomethingThatMayGenerateAnException:aFoo];
>                 //...
>                 
>                 // initialization was successful, so cancel (auto)release:
>                 [self retain];
>         }
>         return self;
> }

This is clever, but it seems to have the same problems as your previous example.

  --Jesse
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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: TCL & interface definitions (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl lost the plot with latest paper)
Date: 10 Apr 1997 00:02:10 -0400
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Lines: 19
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Scott Draves  (spot@cs.cmu.edu) wrote in article <33493144.392C859E@cs.cmu.edu> 

] said
]> the one thing that gives continuous headaches is the lack of interface
]> definitions. Whenever you change an interface it is very very
]> difficult to check that you haven't inadvertantly broken something.
]
] said
]> This what the regression testing is for, isn't it ?
]
]sure, but it's a lot faster and much less work
]to have the compiler type-check your program.

 There seems to be a bit of confusion here. Dynamic typing !=
 no interface declaration/checking. See ObjC as an example.

-- 


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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Apr 1997 04:50:17 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
Lines: 19
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Jesse Jones  wrote:
> But in this specific case Obj-C's extra flexibility gives you nothing but
> an opportunity to shoot yourself in the foot. Is there ever a case where
> you want to call a subclasses method before it's had a chance to initialize
> itself?

The key words here are "in this specific case". Having multiple, flexible
initializers is a good thing. If you're accustomed to writing lousy
pointer code, then you're going to find a way to shoot yourself in the
foot any way you can.

In the grander scale of things, it's much much easier to shoot yourself
in the foot by declaring a class non-virtual and then not having the
source. Oops! I'll take true dynamic dispatch, thank you.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Apr 1997 04:51:54 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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Jesse Jones  wrote:
[let's try to trim *some* of a quote message.. ]
> Won't the release method wind up calling free? If this is true we're back
> to calling subclass methods without first initializing the subclass. Is it
> possible to specify which free method to call and then deallocate the
> object?

No. - release does not call free.

> This is clever, but it seems to have the same problems as your previous 
> example.

.. which isn't a problem.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: jimg@abacus.com (Jim Gagnon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: AppKit and Undo
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:51:53 -0800
Organization: Abacus Concepts, Inc.
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In article <5gvae3$m70@news.next.com>, Eric_Noyau@next.com (Eric Noyau) wrote:
> Well, I'm sorry Mike, but if you call the Undo in Draw "nicely abstract"  
> I'm going to disagree! Take a look at the undo manager in EOF... It's way  
> better than the one in Draw: You don't have to write a class for every  
> possible undo event.
> 
> Here is a simple example:
> 
> - (void)setColor:(NSColor *)aColor
> {
>    [[myUndoManager prepareWithInvocationTarget:self] setColor:_color];
>    [_color autorelease];
>    _color = [aColor retain];
> }
> 
> By doing setColor: on this object you register the method needed to revert  
> the change. If you send -undo to the undo manager, it's going to replay  
> this method, storing the necessary information to perform the redo...
> 
> Of course, if you are using EOF, you don't even need to do any of that:  
> EOF is doing it for you.
> 
> -- Eric

  I have to admit that I have no familiarity with EOF, but for a complex
operation that causes changes in multiple objects this scheme strikes me
as requiring a lot of knowledge about a whole slew of objects to be
embodied into the method you register with the Undo Manager.  I'm
proposing a scheme where NSObject handles all the stuff necessary for an
undo/redo.  As a bonus, my scheme provides for transactions and nested
transactions, full object persistence and a complete object dependency
net.  Any portion can be subclassed if more sophisticated change handling
is required, and any custom change code can be embodied in the object
class requiring the customizations - not in some other class far away from
the object.
  Thus, if an application writer wished to add undo to their app, they
need only use my categorized NSObject, declare a document that objects
belong to, and insert a simple method call (ie. [myObject change])
whenever an object's state changes.  That's it!
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From: gary@whistler.instepmobile.com (Gary Quan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: DBTableView (in DBKit) display nothing even when there is data?
Date: 9 Apr 1997 20:08:27 GMT
Organization: BCTEL Advanced Communications
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Reply-To: gary@instepmobile.com(Gary Quan)
NNTP-Posting-Host: m136.instepmobile.com

Has anyone run into the problem with DBTableView where the
view would display nothing even when there are records
in the underlaying datasource?

DBTableView actually will display the rows (i.e. 10
records in datasource = 10 rows), but the rows are
all empty!

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
--
Gary Quan 
Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.scheme.scsh,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl ...)
Date: 10 Apr 1997 00:31:59 -0400
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
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Paul Wilson (wilson@cs.utexas.edu) wrote in article <5iafs1$fh4@roar.cs.utexas.edu> 

]
]The main benefits that the Tcl hackers I know get form Tcl are an
]interactive command loop, and a standard way of gluing together code
]in other languages, and a standard, fairly functional graphics toolkit.
]Those are great things, and you're to be applauded for realizing they're
]crucial for writing glue code before most other people did!  (It certainly
]should embarrass the hell out of the programming languages community, of
]which I'm a part.)
]
]An interactive command loop is incredibly valuable for increasing
]productivity over the usual compile-link-run-crash cycle.  What's
]sad is how many Tcl programmers there are now who've never used
]any other interactive language, and think Tcl is great because it
]has that huge advantage over C++.

 I think you'll excuse me for another mention of NeXT programming 
 environment, based on dynamically-typed language. Interface
 builder allows you to create, change and test interface without
 compiling it. I do not know of any analog of this tool.


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From: mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.scheme.scsh,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Ousterhout and Tcl lost the plot with latest paper
Date: 10 Apr 1997 00:21:25 -0400
Organization: Northeastern University, Boston, MA. 02115, USA
Lines: 35
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Richard A. O'Keefe (ok@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au) wrote in article <5iacot$sd7$1@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> 

]ouster@tcl.eng.sun.com (John Ousterhout) writes:
]
]>     - It is possible to make languages with execution speeds like C or C++,
]>    that use dynamic typing successfully, whilst being high-level enough
]>    in the creation of abstractions to "glue" things together quite
]>    nicely and easily.
]
]>Can you point to a specific language and identify a large community of
]>users who agree with this assessment?
]
]But restricting it to a large community smuggles in another criterion:
]marketing.  SELF, for example, has dynamic typing, and published benchmarks
]show it close to C or C++.  I imagine people at Sun would understand more
]about SELF than I do.  I've certainly had Scheme code perform close to C
](with the aid of comilers that do a fair amount of type inference, admitted.)
]
]I would also expect someone from Sun to be aware of the awesome ease of
]interoperability with C/C++ offered by ESH.
]
]>Either you have a strongly typed language, which gives high
]>speed and manageability but makes gluing hard, or you have a weakly
]>typed language with the opposite properties.
]
]This is clearly false.  You can have a language with *optional* 
]declarations which can be checked and relied on if they are there.

 ObjC is one such language. In objective C you have to declare
 class interfaces, and you _can_ enable type-checking by 
 statically typing your variables. ( I think function prototypes
 are optional, though, I think)




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From: Sven Droll
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: question about backspace bundles
Date: 10 Apr 1997 06:52:15 GMT
Organization: University of Wuerzburg, Germany
Lines: 15
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Hi

The folder should be BackSpaceViews (with Space not space). Also did you 
rename the .bundle to .BackModule?

ciao
-- 
Sven Droll                                             __
______________________________________________________/ / ______ __
sdroll@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de                   / /_/  ___/
                                                    /_ _/  _/
                                                   =====\_/=======
                                                   LOGOUT FASCISM!
___________________________________________________________________
NeXT-mail, MIME-mail welcome ;-))
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From: bueckle@schelling.dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM (Martin Bckle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Framegrabber under NS 3.3/Intel
Date: 10 Apr 1997 07:08:08 GMT
Organization: debis Network Services GmbH
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Hello,

I'm looking for a framegrabber solution under NS 3.3/Intel. The main
criteria is the ability to transfer image sequences to main memory in
real time. AFAIK there are NS 3.3 drivers for the Movie Machine and
Screen Machine cards by FAST Multimedia. But due to the limited transfer
rate on the ISA bus this solution seems to be inappropriate.

Does anybody know about PCI framegrabbers working together with NS 3.3?

There are FreeBSD and Linux drivers for the Matrox Meteor framegrabber card.
Is it possible to port one of them to NS 3.3? Does anybody working on that?

Any help will be appreciated.

Sincerely,
  Martin Bueckle



Martin Bueckle, Daimler-Benz AG, Research Center Ulm
Institute of Information Technology
Department of Pattern Recognition/Text Understanding
P.O. Box 2360, 89013 Ulm, Germany

Phone: +49 731 505 2399
Fax:   +49 731 505 4113
Email: bueckle@dbag.ulm.daimlerbenz.com

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From: tgogolin@macconnect.com (Timothy Gogolin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 16:11:13 -0500
Organization: Stat-Ease, Inc
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> > Yeah, but isn't he writing to an unitialized pointer anyway?
> > When init calls foo, and you've overridden foo, he deferences his
> > pointer which isn't yet initialized and assigns a value to it. He's
> > not going to trash the method table, but he'll trash something.
> 
> If you've got an ivar which is a pointer, and you haven't initialized
> that pointer yet before calling [super init], and one of the superclass
> implementations of -init calls [self foo], and you've overridden -foo to
> use that pointer ivar, and you don't check to see whether the ivar
> hasn't been initialized, then yes, that's going to be a problem.
> 


Speaking as someone whole actually *likes* some aspects of C++ but is
looking forward to learning the advantages of more dynamic dispatch...

This whole argument over wether C++ is better than ObjC because it
prevents this particular example overlooks the fact that a very similar
example can be written to fail in C++

CMyClass::CMyClass()
: myObjectMember(this)
{
myIntPointerMember = NULL;
}

CMyObjectMember::CMyObjectMember(CMyClass* inOwner)
{
   mOwner = inOwner;
   int i = *(mOwner->GetIntPointerMember());
}

This will fail in C++ for pretty much the same reasons. C++'s constructors
do not prevent the use of unintialized pointers.

If this example seems hopelessly contrived to the C++ fans, I imagine the
ObjC advocates must have felt the same way about the previous example...

By the way, this example generates a warning in MSVC 4.0
but not for Borland 4.5 or CodeWarrior.  We use this passing of
"parent/owner" pointer to child idea several places in our code
but MS was the first to raise a warning flag which got me to thinking
about its general safety... :-)


Tim Gogolin
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From: oschirr@abm12.abm.de (Oliver Schirrmeister)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [q] PDO exception
Date: 10 Apr 1997 11:12:17 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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Does anybodoy know what's the meaning of the PDO exception 

	NX_objectNotAvailableException = 11007   ?
What is it's reason and how do I have to react?

Thanks 

Oliver




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From: oschirr@abm12.abm.de (Oliver Schirrmeister)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Converting ObjC headers to C++ headers
Date: 10 Apr 1997 11:19:03 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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(Robert Worne) rworne@primenet.com wrote:
>"Georg Tuparev"  wrote:
>>Hey Folks!
>>
>>For all who know me -- I'm not getting crazy and I'm still with ObjC ;-)
>>
>>I'm using Select OMT as an OO design / Documentation tool. To include the 
>Foundation  
>>and AppKit classes, I need to convert the headers to C++ headers (the only 
>language  
>>that currently is properly supported by Select). Does anyone know a tool 
>that does  
>>this job? (I will promise to delete them as far as I port them to Select 
;-)
>>
>
>This brings up an interesting question... I need to convert C++ headers to 
>ObjC.  Any help for me?  Or is banging my head on the desk the only 
solution? 
>:)

You can include you C++ -Code into ObjC. 
See Concepts/ObjectiveC/5_Programming/Programming.rtfd in the
librarian.
I hope this helps, too.

Oliver

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From: jkeenan@next.com (Joe Keenan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: how to debug mouse-moving
Date: 8 Apr 1997 21:55:33 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5ieesl$grf@news.next.com>
References: 
Reply-To: joe_keenan@next.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: stout.next.com

In article  Charles William Swiger  
 writes:
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 3-Apr-97 how to debug
> mouse-moving by zizi zhao@worldnet.att.n 
> > i want to run gdb to see what is going on with my mouse-moving event
> > in a view frame step by step. but, the mouse has to leave the frame 
> > to click the  button on the [gdb panel]. 
> >  
> > is it possible to debug mouse-moving in NEXTSTEP 3.3?
> 
> You can't easily do so since you end up moving the mouse, as you've
> discovered.  Probably, the easiest thing would be to add printf's within
> your code to display any variables you're interested in to see what is
> going on.

You could also run gdb in a telnet session from another host, so you don't  
have the gdb UI interfering with the app you're debugging.

joe
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From: "Michael D. Kersey" 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Warning: Michael Kagalenko post has imbedded JavaScript SPAM bomb!
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:37:46 -0400
Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <334CD10A.2208@hal-pc.org>
References:   <01bc42ae$4fc84940$6b91aac6@odessa.bmc.com> <33493144.392C859E@cs.cmu.edu> <5ihoo2$vvd@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
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Michael Kagalenko wrote:
> 
Warning to Netscape users!!

The above poster, Michael Kagalenko, has inserted the following
JavaScript code in his e-mail:



This will open windows in your browser until memory is exhausted and/or
your system hangs.
The .gif file is of a can of Spam(very humorous) and the .wav file is a
ludicrous imitation of Tweety Bird saying "Spam!".

I REALLY wish you wouldn't do this sort of thing, Michael Kagalenko.

Michael D. Kersey
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From: "Michael D. Kersey" 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Warning! E-mail bombs posted by Michael Kagalenko
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 07:59:37 -0400
Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <334CD629.5094@hal-pc.org>
Reply-To: mdkersey@hal-pc.org
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Mime-Version: 1.0
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The poster identified as

mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Michael Kagalenko)

has posted a missive with a JavaScript bomb that will attempt to open
100 windows displaying a can of Spam( and creating the sound "Spam" ) if
you have JavaScript enabled. You may safely read his/her posts provided
you first disable JavaScript. 

However, there may also be a need to disable Java, since the archives
indicate that this same poster has caused similar problems in another
newsgroup,
rec.arts.books

where (s)he has apparently posted similar messages. Visit the Dejanews
archives at
http://www.dejanews.com/
and look up 
mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu
for details.

Good Luck,
Michael D. Kersey
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:29:02 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <8nHDYi600iWX833Nsz@andrew.cmu.edu>
References:  <5i57e6$596@concorde.ctp.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po7.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: 

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 8-Apr-97 Re: Objective
C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com 
>> There's a reason for it: Obj-C programmers generally never, ever have
>> problems with the init methods.  You've come up with a possibility for
>> problems to occur, agreed, but it requires the programmer to override a
>> method without verifying that the new implementation doesn't break.
>  
> No, it requires anyone adding a method call to an init method to verify
> that no subclasses override that method.

I was describing what the problem was; you're describing one way to prevent it.

> This is (theoretically at least) horrible since there can be a huge number
> of subclasses.

It's not very tough to do-- just don't publish the method in your
interface files or documentation, and move it out of the standard method
namespace by prefixing an "_".  (Prefixing an underscore is how the
compiler system itself deals with namespaces.)

[ ... ]
>> And what does this illustrate?  It shows that a programmer can write
>> buggy code if they screw up.  It does not show that this issue causes
>> maintainability problems, that Obj-C is flawed, or any of the other
>> conclusions you've tried to claim must follow from the existence of the
>> problem described above.
>  
> The only point I'm trying to make is that constructors provide more safety
> than Obj-C init methods and I think I've demonstrated that.

You've demonstrated the potential for a bug to occur when initializing
an object in Obj-C.

You have not demonstrated that C++ constructors are "safer" than Obj-C's
alloc/init.  In order to do that, you need to consider the frequency
that "unsafe" things happen under C++ and Obj-C.  Since you apparently
don't have any experience with Obj-C beyond Usenet descriptions, you'll
have to take our word for it that developers don't encounter problems
with Obj-C's alloc/init.

>>> On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init methods?
>> 
>> The same as they are everywhere else, of course.  There aren't special
>> cases and exceptions to the rules the way there are in C++.
>  
> How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init methods?

That depends on where the exception is caught, of course.

You might bail and release the object so that the garbage collection
deals with cleaning up, or you might do something more intelligent like
handling the exception somehow and proceding with initializing the
object.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to get and interpret events before they are translated by Application?
Date: 10 Apr 1997 15:34:30 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <5ij1a6$23h$2@news.nacamar.de>
References: <5igfgf$svo$1@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>
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chris@wise-04.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Christian Kluge) wrote:
>Hi!
>
>I#m just programming NeXTSTEP by around a week. Now I have to create a 
>project, which is able to encode and display the contents of the incoming 
>NXEvent.But I have no idea, where to place the new event loop, which enables 
>me to interpret NXEvent before Application will do this. The implementation 
>of the event loop, with the help of getNextEvent itself is almost clear.
>If could help me please awnser this letter.


Subclass `Application' and overload `- sendEvent: (NXEvent const *)'.

--- Ivo
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From: rrl@pobox.com (R Ross-Langley)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 97 17:00:00 GMT
Organization: MoI Ltd (computer consultancy)
Message-ID: <860605333snz@minfo.demon.co.uk>
References: <199704091839.UAA06438@basement.replay.com> <334C347D.482C@epix.net>
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In article <334C347D.482C@epix.net> prgsdw@epix.net "steve wolfe" writes:
> Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,
> comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,
> comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,
> comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
>> Dash Langan wrote: [and not even to the Y2K newsgroup!]
>> [snip]
> Dash, I really don't have any problem with you advertising via
> news groups for your programming endevours,

Some of us do - a single announcement about a new programming 
language product is welcome, but not repeated adverts please.

> COBOL programmers are the predominant readers of this newsgroup.
> Headhunters post here frequently, but do they read? Mostly I'd say no.

Headhunters were grudgingly accepted on comp.lang.cobol provided 
they stuck to the guidelines that were issued monthly (Pieter?).  
Others have noticed the job ads and thought it was OK to start 
wide ranging discussions about jobs and money and how to get rich.  
It isn't!

I want to see discussions about the programming language itself, 
as the newsgroup charter says, *not* stuff about jobs or idle chat 
about the year 2000.

Maybe we should stop ALL job ads/chat here?  Other newsgroups, 
those concerned with jobs and commerce, can be used instead.

-- 
Richard Ross-Langley

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From: joswig@lavielle.com (Rainer Joswig)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.scheme.scsh,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Reply to Ousterhout's reply (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl ...)
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:54:59 +0200
Organization: Lavielle EDV Systemberatung GmbH & Co.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References:  <334412fb.7359993@news.demon.co.uk> <5i7euq$cmg@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> <5iafs1$fh4@roar.cs.utexas.edu> <5ihqfv$fof@lynx.dac.neu.edu>
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In article <5ihqfv$fof@lynx.dac.neu.edu>, mkagalen@lynx.dac.neu.edu
(Michael Kagalenko) wrote:

>  I think you'll excuse me for another mention of NeXT programming 
>  environment, based on dynamically-typed language. Interface
>  builder allows you to create, change and test interface without
>  compiling it. I do not know of any analog of this tool.

Why not compile it? Don't you guys have incremental compilation?
Even the ideas for the Interface Builder was once a Mac program
written in Lisp (ExperLisp?).

For a newer user- and object-oriented scripting language with strong
capabilities in user interface programming (multimedia) see the
SK8 project from Apple (http://sk8.research.apple.com/).
Btw., written in MCL.

-- 
http://www.lavielle.com/~joswig/
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From: bvaleria 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: TCL & interface definitions (was Re: Ousterhout and Tcl lost the plot with latest paper)
Date: 10 Apr 1997 14:35:15 GMT
Organization: Moderately organized, thanks for asking...
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What's with the JavaScript bomb and the flashing text - you discover a
few new script commands and you have to show your new-found knowledge to
everyone??

Spamming jerk.... will you grow up and get a life, you reject....
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From: mark@no.such.host (Mark Williams)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: This Y2K Solution w/o Testing is Better Than Nothing
Date: 9 Apr 1997 11:30:04 +0100
Organization: Tech OP Ltd
Message-ID: <5ifr3c$bpr@holly.demon.co.uk>
References: <199704071050.MAA09633@basement.replay.com> 
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In article ,
Ron Gemeinhardt  wrote:
>In <199704071050.MAA09633@basement.replay.com>, dashlangan@geocities.com (Dash Langan) writes:
>>
>>After all, with time constraints and considering the state of
>>affairs in most installations, you better not waste your time
>>with testing.

WHAT, NOT DO ANY TESTING!!! Testing is NEVER a waste of time.

The testing phase of a project is as important as the programming stage.
The risks of releasing untested software to the end user is too horrible
to contemplate. If you don't do any testing how do you know that the
software will not damage you data costing you lots of money, law suits
etc.... Need I say more?

>Considering the state of affairs in most installations, you'd better
>well remember:  if you haven't SEEN it work, it DOESN'T work.
I agree.

>Everyone's free to make their own decisions, but if your statement reflects
>your business practices I can guarantee you'll get none of my business, nor
>any I might recommend.
Me too.

-- 
| Mark Williams, Tech OP Ltd       | Have a look at our new web pages
| Principal Engineer               | for jobs, contracts, and consultancy ...
| email: mark@techop.co.uk         | http://www.techop.demon.co.uk/
####################################################################
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From: sjh@idm.com (Steven J Haworth)
Subject: Re: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Sender: news@idm.com (The News User)
Message-ID: 
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 18:46:55 GMT
References: <199704091839.UAA06438@basement.replay.com>
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Dash Langan (dashlangan@geocities.com) wrote:
> The work can be sent to India where people are very well
> experienced with things of an untouchable nature.

> We can have the "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K correction
> code inserted into your programs with or w/o testing as desired!
> No problem!  Reasonable rates!

Without testing.  What a novel idea.
Now there's a sure-fire way to develop solid code.


- Steven
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven Haworth (sjh@idm.com)     Software Quality Assurance Specialist
Information Data Mgmt,  Inc        
Rosemont, IL            USA      My opinions are just mine ...
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From: georgel@yuma.Princeton.EDU (George R. Lewycky)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Followup-To: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Date: 10 Apr 1997 14:18:29 GMT
Organization: Princeton University
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I agree. Its like work (slave labor) that no one else
wants to do. Plus with all the coding and TESTING needed
for this fiasco they're is no real way of testing this
scenario until D-Day.

Also this problem has become alot of hype and just a money
machine for many where just a few lines of code are needed
to handle this problem. I was programming for this 6 years
ago when I turning over new and modified programs dealing
with dates.



Dash Langan (dashlangan@geocities.com) wrote:
: Now, pay attention:  I said that Y2K is rapidly becoming an
: untouchable problem; I did not say that Y2K is becoming an
: unsolvable problem.

: The reason I am characterizing Y2K thus is because too much
: time is passing.  Capable programmers have enough intelligence
: to turn down all Y2K job offers no matter how much green is
: waved under their noses.  This is because they are savvy enough
: to deduce that any installation which has waited this long to
: address Y2K is probably plagued with untenable human resource
: problems, particularly in management.

: What capable programmer is going to be willing to leave his
: current job to take the big risk of walking into a pit of an
: environment where there is inept management, gross incompetence,
: and the prospect of having to face 20,000,000 lines of code
: that have to be converted yesterday?  I have witnessed situations
: which were not to the liking of programmers who walked within
: short order, sometimes in less than a day, and capable programmers
: are the ones most likely to do so.

: Now where will this leave installations that are pits of
: environments?  Up the creek, that's where.  But there is
: an alternative.

: The work can be sent to India where people are very well
: experienced with things of an untouchable nature.

: We can have the "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K correction
: code inserted into your programs with or w/o testing as desired!
: No problem!  Reasonable rates!

: The "Open and Shut Window Technique" can be found at url:
: http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/3462/

: If you have not seen the latest version of this web page which
: includes the absolute value function in the sample code snippet,
: then you are advised to pay a revisit.

: Comments to: dashlangan@geocities.com

: Dash Langan
: --
: We're not yellow.  We go anywhere.


--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From the mind of:
             George R Lewycky
georgel@princeton.edu or lewycky@soho.ios.com

TRY ME:  http://www.princeton.edu/~georgel/
         http://soho.ios.com/~lewycky/
      *    Index of my web pages    *
  http://www.princeton.edu/~georgel/toc.html
*********************************************
      An APPLE a day keeps Bill away
        "I'd rather be on Titan !!"
  [ look at my page and you'll see why ]
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From: zizi zhao 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ?? alloc kills connection
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 19:30:18 -0400
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 42
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I am learning NEXTSTEP programming (NEXTSTEP-3.3/intel) and hoping 
someone could help me to make this work.  

What I want to do is that 
	open & display an image file and show mouse-tracking in the 
	image frame on an inspector panel for multi-opened images.

What I have in my program are an ImageView w/ MyWindow, a Controller 
and a Panel/inspector.

The Form cells 'currentXY' on inspector panel are connected to ImageView 
frame in IB.  

In Controller.m, I have 
	newViewer = [[ImageView alloc] initFrame:&imgRect];
to generate new frames for repeatedly opened image files.  

I wish the mouse-tracking in all image frames could be shown on  
the inspector, but it wouldn't except if I move the mouse in the 
original ImageView frame. The track isn't lost. The only problem 
is that the connection from alloc-generated view-frames to Form 
cells, i.e. from new ImageView to currentXY, seems to be lost.

Then, I change my strategy to put display methods in Controller.m
and connect  currentXY to Controller in IB.  

In ImageView.m, I have
	[controller displayXY:trackPointXY];
and 
	[window setdelegate:controller];
,in Controller.m
	- displayXY: (NXPoint) aPoint

However, the result is the same, though, I set all possible delegates 
and connections between Controller, ImageView, My Window, Panel, 
Form-cells and First-owner.  

Does 'alloc' break connections built in IB? 

Regards,

ZiZi
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From: Ovidiu Predescu 
Date: Wed,  9 Apr 97 22:43:52 +0300
Subject: Re: Objective C? - exception handling
Reply-To: Ovidiu Predescu 
Lines: 50

On 8 Apr 1997 16:18:36 GMT, David Young  wrote:

> ObjC exceptions are based on setjmp/longjmp. They work exactly
> identically in every method or function. Actually, these exceptions
> are provided in NeXT's class library, and aren't part of the
> language proper. They're fairly straightforward, but do have some
> limitations:
>
> NS_DURING
> [someObject methodThatProducesException];
> NS_HANDLER
> printf("Crap. %s\n", [[exception exceptionReason] cString]);
> NS_ENDHANDLER
>
> "exception" is a symbol that's automatically defined by the
> NS_HANDLER macro. These are fully nestable, and work across
> method/class/etc boundaries. There's also NS_VOIDRETURN and
> NS_VALRETURN, which are macros that return from the body of an
> exception handler, but I don't use them that often.
>
> IMHO, this works pretty well, and it's pretty flexible. It's really
> not designed for *anything* but error handling, which is really
> what the domain of exceptions is. I've seen some C++ code that uses
> throw to break out of nested loops and such.. ugh. The NeXT system
> isn't perfect, though, and I'd love to hear another idea for
> exceptions that wouldn't require compiler or runtime modifications.

Take a look to libFoundation-0.7, a better mechanism is implemented  
there. It resembles the exception mechanism from C++ and Java but  
it doesn't require any compiler specific support and is downward  
compatible with OpenStep exception handling mechanism. The only  
required support is for nested functions, GCC supports this, I don't  
know other ObjC compilers.

The exceptions are grouped based on their class (actually you can  
change this behavior by just implementing a method). You have new  
constructs like THROW, TRY, CATCH, OTHERWISE, FINALLY and CLEANUP.  
The exception handlers are called as functions so by putting a  
breakpoint inside an exception handler when the debugger stops you  
will see the whole stack up to the instruction that generated the  
exception. This behavior works well only with the GNU runtime, on  
NeXT runtime the handlers are not called as functions but the effect  
is the same.

You can find libFoundation at the following sites:

ftp://ftp.logicnet.ro:/pub/users/ovidiu/libFoundation-0.7.tgz
ftp://koala.NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE:/pub/next/OpenStep/GNUstep/Sources/libFoundation-0.7.tgz
ftp://ftp.net-community.com/pub/Free/libFoundation-0.7.tgz

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From: wellman@students.uiuc.edu (Dan Wellman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Appending text in NSText objects
Date: 11 Apr 1997 02:06:56 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 13
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I'm using a scroll view object with an NSText object encapsulated and
I want to send text messages to be appended to the displayed text.

I know that NSText has a method "setString" but I can't find a
method which will append text to the currently showing string.

What's the simplest way to append text to the currently showing text
in an NSText object? (Does this mean including NSRange and stuff?)

dan
-- 
  Dan Wellman  <>  wellman@uiuc.edu  <>  http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/~wellman/
     "A million thoughts in one night can't be wrong" - Cause & Effect
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: how to debug mouse-moving
Message-ID: <334D1D73.3850@running-start.com>
From: Ralph Zazula 
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 10:03:47 -0700
Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com
References: <33442F78.13E3@worldnet.att.net> 
Organization: Running Start, Inc.
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Charles William Swiger wrote:
> 
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 3-Apr-97 how to debug
> mouse-moving by zizi zhao@worldnet.att.n
> > i want to run gdb to see what is going on with my mouse-moving event
> > in a view frame step by step. but, the mouse has to leave the frame
> > to click the  button on the [gdb panel].
> >
> > is it possible to debug mouse-moving in NEXTSTEP 3.3?
> 
> You can't easily do so since you end up moving the mouse, as you've
> discovered.  Probably, the easiest thing would be to add printf's within
> your code to display any variables you're interested in to see what is
> going on.
> 
> It's a little more primitive, but then, your mind is the best debugging
> tool you have, not gdb or anything else.
> 

You can debug events by logging in remotely (telnet, rlogin) and running
GDB on the target machine from another terminal.  Hopefully, they aren't
too far apart...

-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 10 Apr 1997 06:02:05 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 29
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References: 
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In article   
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> In article <5igj0d$t7i$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
> (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:

[ prefers flexibility over safety ]
 
> But in this specific case Obj-C's extra flexibility gives you nothing  
but
> an opportunity to shoot yourself in the foot. Is there ever a case where
> you want to call a subclasses method before it's had a chance to  
initialize
> itself?

Quite often, as a matter of fact.  One very common idiom is to have
several init methods that offer various levels of convenience or
flexibility.  They all call one special init method, the 'designated 
initializer', often the one with the most options.   If you need some
additional initialization in you subclass, you just have to override
this single method, all the convenience methods will still work
because they now call the correct, subclassed version of the
designated initializer.

It also makes it very easy to leave parameters used in object init-
ialization open to subclass overriding, for example the classes
of component objects.

Marcel

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Appending text in NSText objects
Date: 11 Apr 1997 03:53:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 32
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On 04/10/97, Dan Wellman wrote:
>I'm using a scroll view object with an NSText object encapsulated and
>I want to send text messages to be appended to the displayed text.
>
>I know that NSText has a method "setString" but I can't find a
>method which will append text to the currently showing string.
>
>What's the simplest way to append text to the currently showing text
>in an NSText object? (Does this mean including NSRange and stuff?)
>


add this in a category on NSTextView  (you likely have an NSTextView, 
not an NSText object.


- (void)appendString:(NSString *)value
{
    NSRange selected;

    [self selectAll:nil];
    selected = [self selectedRange];
    selected.location = selected.length;
    selected.length = 0;
    [self setSelectedRange:selected];
    [self replaceCharactersInRange:selected withString: value];
    [self scrollRangeToVisible:selected];
}
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:01:10 -0700
Organization: Edmark
Lines: 40
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In article ,
tgogolin@macconnect.com (Timothy Gogolin) wrote:

> This whole argument over wether C++ is better than ObjC because it
> prevents this particular example overlooks the fact that a very similar
> example can be written to fail in C++

Every language has its strengths and weaknesses. I happen to think that
it's a good thing C++ doesn't allow you to call a method on an
uninitialized object. But saying C++ is better than Obj-C is just silly
without some notion of how and where the language is to be used.

> CMyClass::CMyClass()
> : myObjectMember(this)
> {
> myIntPointerMember = NULL;
> }
> 
> CMyObjectMember::CMyObjectMember(CMyClass* inOwner)
> {
>    mOwner = inOwner;
>    int i = *(mOwner->GetIntPointerMember());
> }
> 
> This will fail in C++ for pretty much the same reasons. C++'s constructors
> do not prevent the use of unintialized pointers.

It is *not* the same as the original example: C++ gave you a chance to
initialize your object to a good state but the ctor failed to do so. In the
Obj-C case your member function can be called without giving the subclass
an opportunity to initialize itself. Conceptually this is a huge
distinction: the bedrock of OOP is creating objects in a valid state and
then ensuring they remain in a valid state. IMO any language that allows
method calls on uninitialized objects is flawed. (I just found out that
Java shares this problem with Obj-C).

The book _Object Oriented Software Construction_ does a great job
discussing object state and other OOP issues.

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:18:31 -0700
Organization: Edmark
Lines: 16
Message-ID: 
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In article <5ihrla$30m$2@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> Jesse Jones  wrote:
> [let's try to trim *some* of a quote message.. ]
> > Won't the release method wind up calling free? If this is true we're back
> > to calling subclass methods without first initializing the subclass. Is it
> > possible to specify which free method to call and then deallocate the
> > object?
> 
> No. - release does not call free.

Well this is even worse: none of the resources acquired by the super class
init methods are going to be released. Is it even possible to write an
exception safe init method?

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 21:23:14 -0700
Organization: Edmark
Lines: 30
Distribution: world
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In article <5ihvou$447$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, marcel@system.de wrote:

> In article   
> jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> > In article <5igj0d$t7i$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
> > (Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
> 
> [ prefers flexibility over safety ]
>  
> > But in this specific case Obj-C's extra flexibility gives you nothing  
> but
> > an opportunity to shoot yourself in the foot. Is there ever a case where
> > you want to call a subclasses method before it's had a chance to  
> initialize
> > itself?
> 
> Quite often, as a matter of fact.  One very common idiom is to have
> several init methods that offer various levels of convenience or
> flexibility.  They all call one special init method, the 'designated 
> initializer', often the one with the most options.   If you need some
> additional initialization in you subclass, you just have to override
> this single method, all the convenience methods will still work
> because they now call the correct, subclassed version of the
> designated initializer.

I'm talking about calling a method before the object has had a chance to
fully initialize itself. The init method is the mechanism objects use to
initialize themselves so it's hardly the example I was looking for.

  --Jesse
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 05:16:00 GMT
Organization: THINK New Ideas, Inc.
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Jesse Jones  wrote:
> In article <5ihrla$30m$2@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:
> > 
> > No. - release does not call free.
> Well this is even worse: none of the resources acquired by the super class
> init methods are going to be released. Is it even possible to write an
> exception safe init method?

I'll have to admit that my last post was a test to see if you'd make
an uninformed judgement about the language again. You did. You get a
stale cigar.

- release is the extenal deallocator, used to first do reference count
checking (or any other object tracking mechanism you wish), which
then calls dealloc. dealloc is the internal deallocator which releases
the resources used by the object when the reference count hits zero.
The examples posted before are exception safe (and pretty cool. :)

NSExceptions, retain/release, and reference counting are Foundation
concepts, which can be confusing when working on 3.3. You, of course,
are working in your own dreamed up environment where everything sucks
except C++, though.

-- 
.............david.young...senior.developer...think.new.ideas.inc...
....work:.http://www.thinkinc.com...net:.david_young@thinkinc.com...
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 05:19:59 GMT
Organization: THINK New Ideas, Inc.
Lines: 23
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5ikhlv$kjk$2@darla.visi.com>
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Jesse Jones  wrote:
> > > But in this specific case Obj-C's extra flexibility gives you nothing  
> > but
> > > an opportunity to shoot yourself in the foot. Is there ever a case where
> > > you want to call a subclasses method before it's had a chance to  
> > initialize
> > > itself?

> I'm talking about calling a method before the object has had a chance to
> fully initialize itself. The init method is the mechanism objects use to
> initialize themselves so it's hardly the example I was looking for.

See above. You say that you can only shoot yourself in the foot. We
say you *can* shoot yourself in the foot if you try, but you can also
do some pretty cool things. We've demonstrated that.

All you've demonstrated is that unless a language provides the *exact*
same constructor mechanism as C++, it's no good to you. That's fine,
but really, let it go. Go write a Windows application or something.

-- 
.............david.young...senior.developer...think.new.ideas.inc...
....work:.http://www.thinkinc.com...net:.david_young@thinkinc.com...
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 05:23:22 GMT
Organization: THINK New Ideas, Inc.
Lines: 16
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In comp.sys.next.programmer Jesse Jones  wrote:
> an opportunity to initialize itself. Conceptually this is a huge
> distinction: the bedrock of OOP is creating objects in a valid state and
> then ensuring they remain in a valid state. IMO any language that allows
> method calls on uninitialized objects is flawed. (I just found out that
> Java shares this problem with Obj-C).

The bedrock of solid programming, OO or not, is checking your assumptions.

Arianne-5? What?

It's not the language's fault when the programmer writes lousy code.

-- 
.............david.young...senior.developer...think.new.ideas.inc...
....work:.http://www.thinkinc.com...net:.david_young@thinkinc.com...
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From: adam@cnation.com (Adam Pisoni)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Seeking WebObjects / Objective C Developer to work on large project for 2 months.
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 22:29:10 -0700
Organization: CyberNation
Lines: 13
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.117.107.22

CyberNation is seeking a WebObjects / Objective C developer who can aid in
upgrading a large intranet web site built with Web Objects and Objective
C.  The WebObjects application currently at the site also integrates with
a Sybase database so DB experience is required.  Competitive Pay.  If you
are local it is preferred.

CyberNation
225 Santa Monica Blvd. Suite 1102
Santa Monica, CA 90401

Adam Pisoni
adam@cnation.com
310-656-3450
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 06:33:36 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 66
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5ikm00$t0a$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: 
Reply-To: marcel@system.de
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In article   
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> In article <5ihvou$447$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, marcel@system.de  
wrote:

[calling a subclass method before the object has had the chance
 to initialize itself]

> > Quite often, as a matter of fact.  One very common idiom is to have
> > several init methods that offer various levels of convenience or
> > flexibility.  They all call one special init method, the 'designated 
> > initializer', often the one with the most options.   If you need some
> > additional initialization in you subclass, you just have to override
> > this single method, all the convenience methods will still work
> > because they now call the correct, subclassed version of the
> > designated initializer.
> 
> I'm talking about calling a method before the object has had a chance to
> fully initialize itself. The init method is the mechanism objects use to
> initialize themselves so it's hardly the example I was looking for.

It may not have been what you were _looking_ for, but it _is_ what 
you were asking for:  a useful case of polymorphic dispatch / call
of a subclass method before the object has been initialized.

Maybe the example wasn't clear, so here's some (Objective-C) code:


@implementation SuperClass 

-initWithArgument:(int)argument
{
    [super init];
    instanceVar = argument;
    return self;
}
-initAnswer
{
    return [self initWithArgument:42];
}
-initBeast
{
    return [self initWithArgument:666];
}
-init
@end

@implementation SubClass

-initWithArgument:(int)argument
{
    [super initWithArgument:argument];
    -- more initialization --
    return self;
}
@end

Due to polymorphic dispatch, the initAnswer and initBeast methods
(which typically would be doing some more complex and potentially
private computations) can be easily used with SubClass.

If you are looking for examples of normal object functionality
that relies on the state of the object being used before the 
object is initialized, I'm afraid you won't find it.

Marcel
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From: "Stphan Mertz" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to catch exception?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 07:15:16 GMT
Organization: Improve SA
Lines: 10
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Hi,

I want to catch exceptions not generate by my code (e.g. when i can't use
NS_DURING).
Does someone have a way of doing this?

---
Stephan Mertz, Improve SA
OpenStep Developer

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From: no-reply@sundialservices.com (Sundial Services)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Date: 10 Apr 1997 18:01:03 -0700
Organization: Primenet
Lines: 60
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References: <199704091839.UAA06438@basement.replay.com> <5iisrl$q9t$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU>
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In article <5iisrl$q9t$1@cnn.Princeton.EDU> georgel@yuma.Princeton.EDU (George R. Lewycky) writes:

>I agree. Its like work (slave labor) that no one else
>wants to do. Plus with all the coding and TESTING needed
>for this fiasco they're is no real way of testing this
>scenario until D-Day.

>Also this problem has become alot of hype and just a money
>machine for many where just a few lines of code are needed
>to handle this problem. I was programming for this 6 years
>ago when I turning over new and modified programs dealing
>with dates.


To me, Y2K is a wonderful cash-cow for a few tools developers (whose product, 
frankly, is their stock) and not a whole lot more.  The wonderful thing about 
it, from a marketing standpoint, is that no one can precisely put a finger on 
how large the problem might be.  But in 1997, the problem seems wonderfully 
(ahem) timely and ... therefore, nothing else matters.  Crank out some 25-cent 
options for yourself, watch your stock zoom to $100 a share, and buddy-boy you 
can *retire.*  Just be sure to not be the last one to sell your shares.  You 
didn't want to have to work the rest of your life anyway.

Anyhow...  for the unwashed rest-of-us, I think the reality is that we were 
dealing with the Year 2000 thirty years ago.  After all, if you worked for a 
bank with millions of dollars' worth of 30-year mortgages in your portfolio 
then the year-2000 problem hit home for you in 1970.  Your programs had to 
handle the turn of the century correctly.  

Certainly every single COBOL shop I ever worked for had a date/time subroutine 
package written in assembler.  Either you used TOD-clock values (which are 
good for many more centuries) or you used, in all probability, 4-digit years 
to begin with.  The format was 'YYYYMMDD' and that was the end of it.  You 
lumped it all in together with "dammit, is this a leap-year or not," or "how 
many days are between X and Y?"  The Century was simply a part of this problem.

Databases from dBase onward (and earlier, of course) handled dates correctly 
too.  It was a subroutine package, dammit.  We all used it.  It was a part of 
any reasonable standard in the Universe that you not only had to handle the 
Y2000 correctly, you had to know if it was a leap-year or not!  :-)

Meanwhile, we come back to marketing.  The wonderful world where reality 
doesn't matter but perceptions do.  Marketing always pivots on being at the 
right place at the right time and a few hundred or so people are and the rest 
of us are not.  There is a small fortune to be made capitalizing on the 
Year-2000, and most of it has been made already.

The sad thing about it, really, is that for the unwashed rest-of-us there's 
really going to be hell to pay for all this, because there's absolutely no way 
that we can come clean.  Either the Y2K pundits are right or they're wrong.  
If they're right then we're idiots.  If they're wrong then how much *other* 
advice has the DP industry been spewing out that's equally unreliable?  For 
those of us who plan to be working and not cruising the Arctic in the year 
2000, it matters that we don't lead our employers and customers astray for 
short-term fun and profit.

But, if you bought  corp. at the right time or you are part of the company 
that got the Nice Fat Government Contract then you're "in" otherwise you're 
"out."  'Dem's the ropes.

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From: Yoo Chul Chung 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to catch exception?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 17:40:14 +0900
Organization: Seoul National University, Republic of Korea
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"St=E9phan Mertz"  writes:

> I want to catch exceptions not generate by my code (e.g. when i
> can't use NS_DURING).  Does someone have a way of doing this?

Why can't you use NS_DURING?  If there's a function foo() which you
have no source for, then what's wrong with doing

=09NS_DURING
=09=09foo();
=09NS_HANDLER
=09=09/* Whatever */
=09NS_ENDHANDLER

Unless I misunderstood your question, I don't see why this won't work.

-- 
Yoo C. Chung 
School of Electrical Engineering, Seoul National University
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 08:27:21 GMT
Lines: 68
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On 04/09/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
>In article <5igj0d$t7i$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
>(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:
>
>> On 04/08/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
>> >
>> >The only point I'm trying to make is that constructors provide more 
>> >safety than Obj-C init methods and I think I've demonstrated that.
>> 
>> Probably true, but they are also far less flexible, as I pointed out 
in 
>> previous posts.  I'd rather have the flexibility than 'safety' in 
this 
>> case.
>
>But in this specific case Obj-C's extra flexibility gives you nothing 
but
>an opportunity to shoot yourself in the foot. Is there ever a case 
where
>you want to call a subclasses method before it's had a chance to 
initialize
>itself?

Sure.  That's exactly what happens when you override an init method in 
a superclass. The advantage that Objective C has is that you can do 
something interesting with the input parameters to the init method 
BEFORE the superclass sees them.  This is not possible with C++ 
constructors.

As an example, consider a hypothetical bitmap image class with the 
following init method:

- (id)initWithContentsOfFile:(NSString *)fileName;

Now lets say that I want to write a custom subclass that will attempt 
to treat the fileName argument as a URL.  I can do this in my subclass:

- (id)initWithContentsOfFile:(NSString *)fileName
{
	NSData *fileData;
	
	// Attempt to fetch the file from a remote http server:
	if(fileData = [MySubclass dataForURL:fileName])
	{
		// Write file to disk under some temp name.
		[fileData writeToFile:@"tempname.raw" atomically:NO];
		
		// Let superclass continue as normal.  fileData
		// will be autoreleased.
		return [super initWithContentsOfFile:@"tempname.raw"];
	}
	// Apparently not a valid URL, let superclass try it as 
	// a plain file.
	return [super initWithContentsOfFile:fileName];
}

As you can see, this method is 100% safe, even though I'm calling a 
subclass method in my class before the class is initialized.  Since in 
your own words it is trivial for a base class to break a derived class, 
show me how to break the above code.  You claim it is "unsafe" to allow 
methods to be invoked on unititialized objects, and yet that is exactly 
what the above does, with 100% safety.   I claim it's only as unsafe as 
the programmer writing the code.  I don't need Father Stroustrup 
holding my hand every step of the way.

-Ken


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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 08:40:05 GMT
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <5iktd5$7v$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <9704092226.AA02800@basil.icce.rug.nl> 
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On 04/09/97, Jesse Jones wrote:
>In article <9704092226.AA02800@basil.icce.rug.nl>, 
tom@basil.icce.rug.nl wrote:
>
>> In article ,  
>> jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:
>> > In article , Charles William 
Swiger
>> >  wrote:
>> > > Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 7-Apr-97 Re: 
Objective
>> > > C? by Jesse Jones@halcyon.com
>> [...]
>> > > > On a related vein how are exceptions handled from within init 
methods?
>> > >
>> > > The same as they are everywhere else, of course.  There aren't 
special
>> > > cases and exceptions to the rules the way there are in C++.
>> >
>> > How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init 
methods?
>> 
>> One way is to explicitly intercept exceptions, and handle the
>> cleanup in the exception handler, like this:
>> 
>> (example assumes OPENSTEP FoundationKit):
>> 
>> - initWithFoo:(id)aFoo
>> {
>>         if (self = [super init])
>>         {
>>                 NS_DURING
>>                 {
>>                         [self 
doSomethingThatMayGenerateAnException:aFoo];
>>                         // ...
>>                 }
>>                 NS_HANDLER
>>                 {
>>                         // cleanup ourselves.
>>                         [self release];
>>                         // re-raise the exception.
>>                         [localException raise];
>>                 }
>>                 NS_ENDHANDLER           
>>         }
>>         return self;
>> }
>
>Won't the release method wind up calling free? If this is true we're 
>bac to calling subclass methods without first initializing the 
>subclass. Is it possible to specify which free method to call and then 
>deallocate the object?

Actually, what will be called is dealloc.  And if you know that your 
init method may throw an exception partway through, then you simply 
have to code your dealloc method to be able to free any resources that 
had been allocated up to the point where the exception was raised.  
This is not rocket science.  In fact, this is one case where Objective 
C's convention of making method calls to nil object pointers doing 
nothing comes in handy:

- (void)dealloc
{
	[myObj release];
	[someOtherObj release];
	[super dealloc];
}

If eithor myObj or someOtherObj are nil, nothing happens in those 
cases.  Then the superclass is allowed to free up any objects or memory 
that it may have allocated before the exception was raised.  Yes, I'm 
sure if you sat and thought about it you could write some code that 
would probably crash.   

Arguing that because it's possible to write code that crashes due to 
language design is exetremely dumb.  People can write software in 
assembly that never crashes.  People can _definitely_ write software in 
C++ that crashes no matter how much they might think that static typing 
and other special language 'features' try to prevent them from doing 
so.  And yes, people write software in Objective C that crashes, 
although from my experience writing code with Objective C, none of my 
bugs have been related at all to the nightmares you seem to have about 
Objective C's 'unsafety'.

-Ken

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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Appending text in NSText objects
Date: 11 Apr 1997 03:08:11 -0700
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
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wellman@students.uiuc.edu (Dan Wellman) writes:

>I'm using a scroll view object with an NSText object encapsulated and
>I want to send text messages to be appended to the displayed text.

>I know that NSText has a method "setString" but I can't find a
>method which will append text to the currently showing string.

>What's the simplest way to append text to the currently showing text
>in an NSText object? (Does this mean including NSRange and stuff?)

I would think that since NSText has both a -string and a -setString:
method, you could just do something like this:

[myTextObject setString:[[myTextObject string] 
              stringByAppendingString:@"Append me! Append Me!"]];

This may not be the most efficient way, but it should work.

-jcr

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From: LeraillezB@netinfo.fr (Benoit Leraillez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Tips concerning NSText
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 12:50:58 +0200
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I'm no programmer but a partner of a French software company editor of a
French spelling and grammar checker. The recent turmoils at Apple for
the last year or two have forced us to start porting our product to
Windows.

I would like to convince our developpers, which happen to be members of
the board, to spend some ressources on porting our product NOW to the
OpenStep environment. I know spell checking is standard on the platform
but grammar means more than words.

I'd like some help at proving this can easily be done and that our
product could be seen as a service to text editors (today on the MacOs
we use AppleScripts or AppleEvents and the Word Services Suite).

One last comment about grammar checking: we need to get the full text or
at least complete paragraphs, and we must be able to add or remove
punctuation.

Thanks in advance for your comments and precious time,

Benoit Leraillez
www.bcdl.com
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Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 07:01:43 -0600
From: David Stes 
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Message-ID: <860759817.26749@dejanews.com>
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In article <3346b0b9.698848521@snews.zippo.com>
  cppc@objex.com wrote:
>
> Actually, init/alloc came from a rewrite of the Stepstone Foundation
> class library, coincident with the release of Stepstone's ObjC 4.0
> ...
> it possible for objects to be allocated globally or on the stack.
 .
You have -initialize in mind.  For objects allocated on the stack,
Stepstone has -initialize (not -init).
 .
+new has always been used for objects that are created on the "heap".
There's no +alloc.
 .
There are, in the IBM RS/6000 Stepstone compiler, stubs for alloc
& init stuff.  IBM used the Stepstone objcc for NextStep AIX, so
work-arounds were added to get the NXZone's methods to compile.
 .
In any case, Don is right : alloc/allocFromZone/init and copyFromZone:
are NeXT creations.  These 2.x zone allocation methods trade in 1.0
simplicity for a measure of performance (at the expense of a more
complex API for the user).

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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From: jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: bugs in OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.1 for NT
Date: 11 Apr 1997 13:48:45 GMT
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We recently have become the proud owners of a copy of OPENSTEP
Enterprise Release 4.1 for Windows NT, and have begun to try to compile
our software, that we have been porting to the OpenStep specifications
(on our Mach machines with OPENSTEP 4.0) for the past few months. 

We would like your comments (and commiserations) on the following bugs:

* One nasty surprise was that the compiler does not grok RTF formatted
source code. (Why does ProjectBuilder have a Format menu then?) 

* The compiler considers single, unbalanced quotes an error, even when
they occur in comment lines or preprocessor statements (like #warning). 

* pswrap does not automatically create the intermediate subdirectory
with name of the subproject, inside the derived_src directory. I have
to do it by hand. 


So far, for the rest it seems to compile OK. Although we have found
some UNIX specific things in our code, like popen, crypt. And 'struct
tm' from  is not the same, but these can all be worked around. 

Oh, one thing: maybe somebody has a pointer to a yacc/lex replacement
for Windows NT, that can be called from within the Makefiles? 


Thanks in advance for your comments,

Jan-Willem

-- 
Jan-Willem de Bruijn  -   F   Y   G   I   R    logistic information systems
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From: ploeger@pedcard.uni-kiel.de (Andreas Ploeger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: openFile:withApplication: requires public window server?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 16:06:07 GMT
Organization: Rechenzentrum der Universitaet Kiel, Germany
Lines: 22
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Hi,

I was surprised to see my [[Application workspace] openFile: 
withApplication:] call fail for some users. I then tried 'open -a Edit' from 
a shell which also failed for the same users.

I finally found out that I had to turn on the public window server to avoid 
these problems:
  dwrite System PublicWindowServer Yes

Is there something wrong with my system's configuration or is this the 
normal?

Thanks & greetings,

A. Ploeger
--
Dr. Andreas Ploeger                  E-Mail: ploeger@toppoint.de
Kiel University                       Phone: +49 431 597 1757
Clinic for Pediatric Cardiology         FAX: +49 431 597 1745 or 1831
Schwanenweg 20, 24105 Kiel, Germany

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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Seeking a DataBAseServer fo EOFrameWork
Date: 11 Apr 1997 16:05:29 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I'm just doing my first steps with the EOModeler
of OpenStep Developer 4.1 but have some trouble
in finding a suitable DataBaseServer for it.
The great vendors (Oracle, Sybase,...) obviously
does not support OpenStep, so I downloaded a
TrialVersion of OracleWorkGroupServer 7 for OS/2.
After spending hours by hours in reading manuals
and trying to get this server up (without any success),
I finally cancel this approach.

A second one was to download the TrialVersion of
OpenBase (Gamma) for OpenSTep from the peanutsarchiv,
but this version seams to have some problems with it's 
adaptor. 

I would really appreciate to hear about a configuration,
that's easy to install and working very well. I didn't plan
to spend weeks only for installing a database to be able to
do the first steps with EOModeler.
Thanks in advance!

Andreas Hoeschler

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From: jkeenan@next.com (Joe Keenan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Appending text in NSText objects
Date: 11 Apr 1997 16:39:49 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5ilpgl$fvi@news.next.com>
References: 
Reply-To: joe_keenan@next.com
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In article  jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)  
writes:
> wellman@students.uiuc.edu (Dan Wellman) writes:
> 
> >I'm using a scroll view object with an NSText object encapsulated and
> >I want to send text messages to be appended to the displayed text.
> 
> >I know that NSText has a method "setString" but I can't find a
> >method which will append text to the currently showing string.
> 
> >What's the simplest way to append text to the currently showing text
> >in an NSText object? (Does this mean including NSRange and stuff?)
> 
> I would think that since NSText has both a -string and a -setString:
> method, you could just do something like this:
> 
> [myTextObject setString:[[myTextObject string] 
>               stringByAppendingString:@"Append me! Append Me!"]];

I don't understand why this isn't obvious.  NSMutableString has the  
method:

appendString:

- (void)appendString:(NSString *)aString

Adds the characters of aString to end of the receiver.


joe
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From: Fauzia Burke 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Book: Objects on the Web
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 11:57:41 -0500
Organization: SuperNet Inc. (908) 828-8988
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There's a new book from McGraw-Hill: Objects on the Web. You can find
the TOC and an excerpt at:

http://www.smartbooks.com/bw704objweb.htm

Hope this is useful.

fburke@fsb.superlink.net
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From: bobc@edmark.com (Bob Clark)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:16:15 -0800
Organization: Edmark Corporation
Lines: 22
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David Young  said:

> Jesse Jones  wrote:
> > In article <5ihrla$30m$2@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:
> > > 
> > > No. - release does not call free.
> > Well this is even worse: none of the resources acquired by the super class
> > init methods are going to be released. Is it even possible to write an
> > exception safe init method?
> 
> I'll have to admit that my last post was a test to see if you'd make
> an uninformed judgement about the language again. You did. You get a
> stale cigar.

Step 1: Someone learning about Ob-C asks a question.
Step 2: Ob-C advocate gives a deliberately deceptive answer.
Step 3: Ob-C student accepts the deceptive answer and has a followup question.
Step 4: Ob-C advocate leaps out from behind a tree, yelling "Gotcha!"

Does anyone else feel hollow inside?

--Bob
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From: jkeenan@next.com (Joe Keenan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Appending text in NSText objects
Date: 11 Apr 1997 17:39:54 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5ilt1a$i6m@news.next.com>
References: <5ilpgl$fvi@news.next.com>
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In article <5ilpgl$fvi@news.next.com> jkeenan@next.com (Joe Keenan)  
writes:
> 
> I don't understand why this isn't obvious.  NSMutableString has the  
> method:
> 
> appendString:
> 
> - (void)appendString:(NSString *)aString
> 
> Adds the characters of aString to end of the receiver.

Oops.  I was thinking NSString, not NSText.  For NSText, I think you want  
to use something like:

replaceCharactersInRange:withString:

- (void)replaceCharactersInRange:(NSRange)aRange withString:(NSString  
*)aString

Replaces the characters in aRange with aString. For a rich text object,  
the text of aString is assigned the formatting attributes of the first  
character of the text it replaces, or of the character immediately before  
aRange if the range's length is zero. If the range's location is zero, the  
formatting attributes of the first character in the receiver are used.


Where the range points to the end of the text.  Not sure how you do that,  
but it shouldn't be too hard.

joe
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 11 Apr 1997 18:40:14 GMT
Organization: THINK New Ideas, Inc., New York City
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5im0ie$de3$1@darla.visi.com>
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Bob Clark  wrote:
> Step 1: Someone learning about Ob-C asks a question.

Uh, there's a thick line between asking genuine questions and continually
pointing to things and yelling "FLAW! FLAW!". He's crossed, if not jumped
on and smeared out, this line.

Calling Mr. Jones a student of ObjC is a tremendous exaggeration. It's
also an insult to anyone who genuinely is trying to learn the language.

> Does anyone else feel hollow inside?

Eat something.

-- 
.............david.young...senior.developer...think.new.ideas.inc...
....work:.http://www.thinkinc.com...net:.david_young@thinkinc.com...
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From: Rich Markle 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Java with NeXTStep/OPENSTEP?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 00:02:30 -0700
Organization: Code Monkeys of America
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I am interested in Java programming and would like to develop in the
NeXT environment.  Is there an implementation for the NeXT? 
Alternatively, if there is a hack for another UNIX, which one and how do
I do it?  
	The reason I am asking is, I have not heard of developing Java on NS/OS
but Lighthouse Design markets Javaplan and doesn't that run under
OPENSTEP?

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

--- 
Rich Markle >> rmarkle@earthlink.net (310)442-8086
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From: zander@conextions.com (Aleksey Sudakov)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Java with NeXTStep/OPENSTEP?
Date: 12 Apr 1997 00:59:52 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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On 04/10/97, Rich Markle wrote:
>I am interested in Java programming and would like to develop in the
>NeXT environment.  Is there an implementation for the NeXT? 
>Alternatively, if there is a hack for another UNIX, which one and how 
do
>I do it?

There is no need to hack another UNIX. You could do Java under 
NeXTSTEP. Look at kaffe or NeXT Java port.

>	The reason I am asking is, I have not heard of developing Java 
on NS/OS
>but Lighthouse Design markets Javaplan and doesn't that run under
>OPENSTEP?

I doubt that. At least I haven't heard it does. When it comes to Java 
for NeXTSTEP you gotta be either have very big $$$ or turn to free 
projects...

Aleksey.

P.S. I almost done with JStep (JavaStep or whatever the name would be) 
website.

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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 20:48:05 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article <5ikhlv$kjk$2@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> All you've demonstrated is that unless a language provides the *exact*
> same constructor mechanism as C++, it's no good to you. That's fine,
> but really, let it go. Go write a Windows application or something.

Stop putting words in my mouth. All I've said is that Obj-C's init methods
are flawed. This does not make Obj-C unusable. C++, for example, has more
flaws and pitfalls than most languages, but it's quite usable once you've
surmounted the learning curve.

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:12:27 -0700
Organization: Edmark
Lines: 35
Distribution: world
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In article <5ikm00$t0a$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, marcel@system.de wrote:

> In article   
> jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:
> > In article <5ihvou$447$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>, marcel@system.de  
> wrote:
> 
> [calling a subclass method before the object has had the chance
>  to initialize itself]
> 
> > > Quite often, as a matter of fact.  One very common idiom is to have
> > > several init methods that offer various levels of convenience or
> > > flexibility.  They all call one special init method, the 'designated 
> > > initializer', often the one with the most options.   If you need some
> > > additional initialization in you subclass, you just have to override
> > > this single method, all the convenience methods will still work
> > > because they now call the correct, subclassed version of the
> > > designated initializer.
> > 
> > I'm talking about calling a method before the object has had a chance to
> > fully initialize itself. The init method is the mechanism objects use to
> > initialize themselves so it's hardly the example I was looking for.
> 
> It may not have been what you were _looking_ for, but it _is_ what 
> you were asking for:  a useful case of polymorphic dispatch / call
> of a subclass method before the object has been initialized.

I have a mental model of an init method as being equivalent to a C++ ctor.
After considering your example it's apparent that my model was misleading
and I agree that polymorphic dispatch can be useful from within an init
method. However this, like many other Obj-C features, introduces additional
possibilities for run time errors. To a C++ programmer this is a big deal.
To a Smalltalk programmer it's, I guess, standard operating procedure.

  --Jesse
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 21:49:55 -0700
Organization: Edmark
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In article <5iktd5$7v$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>, kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com
(Kenneth C. Dyke) wrote:

> Actually, what will be called is dealloc.  And if you know that your 
> init method may throw an exception partway through, then you simply 
> have to code your dealloc method to be able to free any resources that 
> had been allocated up to the point where the exception was raised.  
> This is not rocket science.  In fact, this is one case where Objective 
> C's convention of making method calls to nil object pointers doing 
> nothing comes in handy:
> 
> - (void)dealloc
> {
>         [myObj release];
>         [someOtherObj release];
>         [super dealloc];
> }

So, it works like the following:
   1) alloc is called which allocates enough space for the object and zero
fills the memory.
   2) init is called to initialize the object. If this may throw an
exception you should catch the exception, call release, and re-throw the
exception.
   3) When an object is freed dealloc is called. Since this may have been
called as the result of an exception any or all of the member data may be
nil.

It seems like this would work pretty well.

  --Jesse
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 12 Apr 1997 08:57:46 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 33
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In article   
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) writes:

> 
> I have a mental model of an init method as being equivalent to 
> a C++ ctor. After considering your example it's apparent that 
> my model was misleading and I agree that polymorphic dispatch
> can be useful from within an init  method. However this, like
> many other Obj-C features, introduces additional possibilities
> for run time errors. To a C++ programmer this is a big deal. To
> a Smalltalk programmer it's, I guess, standard operating procedure.
> 
>   --Jesse

Yes, trying to transpose from one language to another is almost 
always error prone.  I still disagree with your final assessment
that this introduces 'additional' possibilities for errors at
run-time, because these are the _same_ possibilities you _always_
have when dealing with inheritance, be it in C++ or Smalltalk.

Forbidding the use of inheritance means going back to 
object-based programming, which may be necessary for some
systems.  Forbidding inheritance in some situations but not
others is simply inconsistent:  it gives up power and simplicity
for just the illusion of safety.

Apart from preferring power and simplicity, I also think that both
this illusion of safety and inconsistency in general are far
more significant error sources than the subclassing problems.

Programming is a human activity.

Marcel
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From: stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: bugs in OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.1 for NT
Date: 12 Apr 97 12:11:15 GMT
Organization: Lysis SA
Lines: 17
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In <5ilfft$ph3$1@news1.xs4all.nl> Jan-Willem de Bruijn wrote:
> 
>.... 
> * pswrap does not automatically create the intermediate subdirectory
> with name of the subproject, inside the derived_src directory. I have
> to do it by hand. 
>... 

I had the same problem: I created a project on 4.0, then used 4.1 and added a 
pswrap, and the same error occured. All you need to do is to recreate a dummy 
project on 4.1 and compare the Makefiles (3) et PB.project files; you will 
see that there are some "minor" modifications that you need to report to your 
project's files. After that,everything will work correctly with the pswrap. 
No need anymore to create the subdirectories by hand.

Stephane

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From: js@euler.han.de (Juergen Sell)
Subject: Re: how to debug mouse-moving
Message-ID: 
Sender: js@euler.han.de (Juergen Sell)
Organization: Ink Unknown
References: <33442F78.13E3@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 16:22:30 GMT
Lines: 26

zizi zhao  writes
> the subject is my question. 
> 
> i want to run gdb to see what is going on with my mouse-moving event
> in a view frame step by step. but, the mouse has to leave the frame 
> to click the  button on the [gdb panel]. 
> 
> is it possible to debug mouse-moving in NEXTSTEP 3.3?

I had the same problem once and not a second machine at hand.
What did it for me was to implement a category for class Object which  
implements -printf: by initially creating a window with scrolled text view and  
printing into that. Consecutive method invocations use the same window, of  
course. The window itself is not made key nor ordered front, so your mouse  
input & movement gets not disturbed.
This thingy gets switched on and off via dwrites, so the debug-code could  
remain in your productive code.
Mail me if you are interested.

Juergen
---
AnsweringMachine +49 511 92455-50     Fon -51     Fax -52     NeXTMail welcome
 = What time do we live in when revolution reminds us of soap powder,
 = when spontaneity and freedom get associated with instant coffee,
 = when a politician's idea of social change is changing names
 = when a country posing as super know-how factory cuts expenses on education?
####################################################################
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From: Patrick Miller 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Thank GOD Nieman Marcus doesn't use this registration incentive!
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 18:44:35 -0400
Organization: Regi$ter Online!
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <33501052.890@registerline.com>
Reply-To: support@registerline.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip137.saint-louis.mo.pub-ip.psi.net
Mime-Version: 1.0
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My wife would never get off the phone!

:: New web site folks... see what I'm talking about::
-- 
REGI$TER ONLINE! http://registerline.com
Download the shareware version of Mega Bites 
http://www.wipd.com/mega/cooking/megabite.shtml
[A FREE promotion for Regi$ter Online! Shareware Authors]
####################################################################
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From: "Eric A. Dubiel" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Java with NeXTStep/OPENSTEP?
Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 21:57:15 -0600
Organization: Instructional Technology Services & Smith Net-Illinois State University
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <33505995.105B@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
References: <334DE206.11D1@earthlink.net> <5immq8$76p@news-central.tiac.net>
Reply-To: eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: h0010111.smith.ilstu.edu
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Aleksey Sudakov wrote:
> P.S. I almost done with JStep (JavaStep or whatever the name would be)
> website.

How about a URL?  :)
-- 
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
mailto:eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu  
ytalk eadubie@138.87.201.11 --- MIME, SUN, NeXT, PGP Mail ok 
R&D --- Instructional Technology Services --- Illinois State University
"I first saw NEXTSTEP in 1990 and I was blown away."- Eric Schmidt,
Novell Inc. CEO
ALL VIEWS EXPRESSED REPRESENT MYSELF ONLY
####################################################################
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <28108860302827@digifix.com>
Date: 13 Apr 1997 04:00:07 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 344
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
Message-ID: <15479860904022@digifix.com>
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X-Mailer: Perl5 Mail::Internet v1.23
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:63543 comp.sys.next.announce:4139 comp.sys.next.hardware:28278 comp.sys.next.software:29046 comp.sys.next.misc:25559 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:26284 comp.sys.next.bugs:4256 comp.sys.next.programmer:24088


Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!sprint!ix.netcom.com!cdouty
From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Memory problems
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <199704061816.AA10614@ergotech.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 16:29:07 GMT
Lines: 28
Sender: cdouty@netcom13.netcom.com

In article <199704061816.AA10614@ergotech.com>,
Drake Woodring   wrote:
>  I have just upgraded my OpenStep for Mach computer with 64mg of ram.  It
>works great in NT, but as soon as the login screen should appear, the
>screen goes blank.  I have done memory swapping with other machines, and I
>know that the memory is good.  I have also swapped motherboard and
>processor.  The most I can get on a Mach system is 50mg.  Is there any
>memory requirements for Mach?  Will I have the same problems with the NT
>version?  

Let me guess, you have a Diamond Stealth64 video card.   There is a 
mostly well-known problem with the memory mapping of the stealth card in 
NeXT's driver.  You should be able to boot with "config=Default" to use 
the default VGA driver.  Then run Configure.app, go to the display driver 
section, and change the 8192K mapped memmory to some really high value.  
The problem is that your physical RAM and the memory map are overlapping 
because NeXT foolishly placed the map at a location where you can easily 
HAVE RAM.

I don't know if any other video cards have a similar problem, but it's 
possible.  Good luck.

	-Chris
-- 
Christopher Douty -  Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
	cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities.  These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
####################################################################
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From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Memory problems
Date: 13 Apr 1997 09:16:28 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <5iqmbc$me0@papoose.quick.com>
References: <199704061816.AA10614@ergotech.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: papoose.quick.com

In article <199704061816.AA10614@ergotech.com>,
Drake Woodring   wrote:
>  I have just upgraded my OpenStep for Mach computer with 64mg of ram.  It
>works great in NT, but as soon as the login screen should appear, the
>screen goes blank.  I have done memory swapping with other machines, and I
>know that the memory is good.  I have also swapped motherboard and
>processor.  The most I can get on a Mach system is 50mg.  Is there any
>memory requirements for Mach?  Will I have the same problems with the NT
>version?  

Some video card drivers map the video card frame buffer to an address which
is less than 64MB.  This will obviously cause problems.  If your card
and driver support it, you can change this value in the Expert Settings
panel of Configure.app.

You will, of course, have to remove some memory first to try this out.
Also, make a backup of the Config settings before you play with this
so that you can restore working settings from single user mode rather
than booting with config=Default.  This will save you time if you
need to play.
-- 
  ___ ___ | James E. Quick                     jq@quick.com 
   / /  / | Quick & Associates                 NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/  |    Apple, we know the song's not written yet,
       )  |    but could you at least hum a few more bars? 
####################################################################
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From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Proposed change to config.guess
Date: 13 Apr 1997 20:17:59 GMT
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <5irf1n$62i@sun0.urz.uni-heidelberg.de>
Reply-To: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: thefly.mathi.uni-heidelberg.de
X-Newsreader: slrn (0.9.3.2 UNIX)

I don't know if there's somebody left who cares about this, but I'd like
to submit a patch to gnu-utils-bug that changes autoconfig's config.guess
so that it works on NEXTSTEP and MachOS systems without a compiler
installed.

Since MachOS has no "uname" command, config.guess currently relies on
compiling a short program. Therefore, on MachOS systems without a cc,
it has no clue.

I'd like to include the following piece of code in config.guess. Could
you perhaps try to run it on some strange/oldish/newish MachOS systems,
and tell me if it doesn't report the expected result (should be e.g.
hppa-nextstep-next3). I'm especially interested in the output of
hostinfo on pre-3.x systems.

Umm, config.guess currently returns ARCH-nextstep-next3 even for 4.x
systems. Wouldn't it be reasonable to change this into next4 ?

	Gregor


-- 
| Gregor Hoffleit                        Mathematisches Institut, Uni HD |
| flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de      INF 288, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany |
| (NeXTmail, MIME)                      (49)6221 54-5771    fax  54-8312 |
| PGP Key fingerprint = 23 8F B3 38 A3 39 A6 01  5B 99 91 D6 F2 AC CD C7 |
####################################################################
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From: wotmp@rhodes.edu (Mike Wottle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: gcc for NeXT
Date: 13 Apr 97 20:10:21 GMT
Organization: The University of Memphis
Lines: 5
Sender: -Not-Authenticated-[3400]
Message-ID: <33513dad.0@ALPHA.RHODES.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: alpha.rhodes.edu
X-Posted-From: InterNews 1.0.8@wotmp.wh.rhodes.edu
Xdisclaimer: No attempt was made to authenticate the sender's name.

I bought a used NeXTstation and I assumed it would come with gcc
already on it, but it turns out that the computer came with no
developer tools... Is there anywhere I can get a copy of gcc for NeXT,
and all of the files I'll need to start programming in C on my NeXT? 
Please respond to .  Thanks.
####################################################################
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From: Bob Hathaway 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.oberon,comp.object.logic,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.beta
Subject: Object Magazine Online - ANNOUNCEMENT/CALL FOR PAPERS- Free New Journal
Followup-To: comp.object
Date: 13 Apr 1997 20:05:45 -0500
Organization: Object Magazine Online
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <5irvt9$gs6@shoga.wwa.com>
Reply-To: Bob Hathaway 
NNTP-Posting-Host: shoga.wwa.com
Summary: Object Magazine Online - FREE NEW JOURNAL
Keywords: Free WWW OO Object-Oriented Journal
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24093 comp.lang.oberon:8212 comp.object.logic:1070 comp.lang.scheme:13774 comp.lang.beta:1023

                       OBJECT MAGAZINE ONLINE
                       ======================
               OBJECT MAGAZINE ONLINE HYPERTEXT JOURNAL             
                FREE NEW MONTHLY OBJECT-ORIENTED FORUM
                      FORMERLY: OBJECT CURRENTS

    Location:        http://www.sigs.com/omo/
    Editor-In-Chief: Bob Hathaway 
    Issues:          January 1996 (OCJ) thru April 1997
    Next Issue:      May 1
    Publisher:       SIGS: C++ Report, JOOP/ROAD, Object Magazine,
                          Object Expert, Smalltalk Report, X Journal, 
                          Java Report, Object Buyer's Guide, ...

This is an invitation to join us at Object Magazine Online and view, engage
in, and participate in the latest in object-oriented technology using the
newest in information technology, the WWW.  Object Magazine Online is a
complete new free monthly journal with original Feature Articles, Columns,
and Departments along with several *new* articles from Object Magazine.

  OMO ARTICLES

We are accepting original Articles to present in OMO which include honorarium
and the opportunity to publish.

Our World Class Columnists have included:
  Watts Humphrey:         SEI Process Director, CMM & PSP Inventor
  Bertrand Meyer:         Eiffel, OO Design and Software Engineering
  Francois Bancilhon:     President, O2 Technology, Leading ODBMS Expert
  Michael Jesse Chonoles: Chief of Methodology, Advanced Concepts Center of
                          Lockheed Martin
  David Shang:            OO Programming Language Designer, Motorola Labs
  Michael Spertus:        President, Geodesic Systems, Program Automation
  Prof. Brain Henderson-Sellers: Director, Centre for Object Technology
                         Applications and Research (Victoria)
  Ian Mitchell:		 Heads of Rapid Prototyping Laboratory:
		   http://osiris.sund.ac.uk/research/canopus/mitchell/rpl.html
  
Interviews (including OCJ):
  January:  Grady Booch
  February: James Rumbaugh
  March:    Ivar Jacobson  (Part I)  - Get the latest on the UML
  June:     Steve Mellor,  Plus Jacobson (Part II)
  Soon:     Sally Shlaer

Newsgroup Dialog:  - Monthly "Best Thread" from comp.object
  Robert Martin, Tim Ottinger

Week in OT: Jane Grau  - Late breaking news on object technology
  4 times/month

Feature Articles:
  Too many to repeat here, OCJ has presented many original features
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From: "Greg Shaw" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to catch exception?
Date: 14 Apr 1997 02:30:00 GMT
Organization: Decisionware
Lines: 40
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Stephan,
The solution am about to describe works in this situation:

Once an exception has been thrown I want to know who threw it and how my
code caused it to be thrown.  I do not normally know which region of code
is throwing and therefore cannot put an NS_DURING around it.  Is this what
you are trying to catch?  If so read on.

Start up the debugger.
When all the symbols are loaded type 'info functions raise'.
This will display all functions with the text 'raise' in their names.  You
can also do this with 'exception'.
Towards the bottom of the 'raise' list there should be an entry for
NXRaise.
Set a breakpoint at this address eg. break *0xf0f0f0f0.
Run your program until the exception is raised.
The break point will occur just before control is passed to the throw
system.
Check you stack frames and locate the point in your code that ultimately
caused the exception.  Then try and work out how you managed to do it.
If you waited until after the throw had occurred then the stack will be
lost and you will not know how you got to be in the exception.
Hope this helps.

Cheers, Greg Shaw.

Stphan Mertz  wrote in article
<01bc4647$ee5a5110$b4becec2@neuteu>...
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I want to catch exceptions not generate by my code (e.g. when i can't use
> NS_DURING).
> Does someone have a way of doing this?
> 
> ---
> Stephan Mertz, Improve SA
> OpenStep Developer
> 
> 
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From: "Stphan Mertz" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to catch exception? (more clearly)
Date: 14 Apr 1997 07:30:02 GMT
Organization: Improve SA
Lines: 23
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Hi,

I'm trying to explain more clearly my problem with an example:
In an application i develop with 4.1 and EOF 2.0, sometimes my interface
becomes unstable because of exceptions like [NSArray arrayWithObject:nil].
I debug my code, and i realize that the EOInterface layer is responsible:
the exception is generate after my code, in a later NSApp event by a class
like NSDelayedObserver. Impossible to catch the exception because not
planned.
In this example, it is a bug in EODisplayGroup caused by a EOEditingContext
revert (Reference: 64084).

That i want (for future or uncovered bugs) is to prevent the user to save
his work and to relaunch, because the app is in an unstable state.

Thanks for your help,

Stef

---
Stephan Mertz, Improve SA
OpenStep Developer

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: bugs in OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.1 for NT
Date: 14 Apr 1997 14:37:44 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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In <5ilfft$ph3$1@news1.xs4all.nl> Jan-Willem de Bruijn wrote:
> 
> * pswrap does not automatically create the intermediate subdirectory
> with name of the subproject, inside the derived_src directory. I have
> to do it by hand. 
> 
     Dit it ever ?  I would like to know how to use that feature.

> 
> So far, for the rest it seems to compile OK. Although we have found
> some UNIX specific things in our code, like popen, crypt. And 'struct
> tm' from  is not the same, but these can all be worked around. 
> 
> Oh, one thing: maybe somebody has a pointer to a yacc/lex replacement
> for Windows NT, that can be called from within the Makefiles? 
> 
     MKS LEX/YACC are good products.

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From: Tom Hageman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 14 Apr 1997 19:05:39 +0200
Organization: Warty Wolfs
Message-ID: <9704132211.AA05714@basil.icce.rug.nl>
Reply-To: tom@basil.icce.rug.nl
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In article ,  
jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:
> In article <9704092226.AA02800@basil.icce.rug.nl>,  
tom@basil.icce.rug.nl wrote:
> > In article ,
> > jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones) wrote:
> > > How do you cleanup an object that throws from one of its init
> > > methods?
> >
> > One way is to explicitly intercept exceptions, and handle the
> > cleanup in the exception handler, like this:
[my examples snipped]
>
> Won't the release method wind up calling free? If this is true
> we're back to calling subclass methods without first initializing
> the subclass. Is it possible to specify which free method to call
> and then deallocate the object?

Yes, the release method ultimately calls the object's -dealloc
method when the object's retain count reaches zero.  In theory this
may cause problems in -dealloc if the object is partially initialized.
In practice, the problem is minimized since -alloc zeroes out the
object's memory.  So pointer instance variables are  in effect
initialized to nil (or NULL) even if -init is never invoked (assuming
the conventional representation of nil/NULL as all-zero bits of
course.)  Since methods sent to nil are ignored, and free(NULL) is
also a no-op as per ANSI C, a straightforward implementation of
-dealloc usually suffices:

@interface Foo : ASuperClass
{
	id myObject;
	void *myChunkOfMemory;
	// ...
}
// ...
- (void)dealloc;
@end

@implementation Foo
// ...
- (void)dealloc
{
	[myObject release];
	free(myChunkOfMemory);
	// ...
	[super dealloc];
}
@end

--
__/__/__/__/  Tom Hageman     [NeXTmail/Mime OK]
  __/ __/_/      IC Group   (work)
 __/__/__/        "Any magic sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable
__/  _/_/                    from a perl script" -- Larry Wall, mangled

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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Controls and Cells (was Re: Berkeley Sockets vs. STREAMS)
Date: 14 Apr 1997 17:07:21 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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Dave Griffiths  writes
> Does anyone know why the Cell classes exist? It's very curious 'cos
> there's a lot of repetition between View and Cell. It would seem cleaner
> to only have View sublasses. The only reason I can think of that NeXT
> created Cell and all it's subclasses is to avoid the DPS overhead of
> creating Views. Bit of a kludge, but justified by performance criteria.

The theory of operation is that Controls (which descend from View) are 
responsible for events and drawing; while Cells are responsible for 
maintaining, validating, and formatting the _contents_ of Controls. Yes, 
many Controls have a one-to-one relationship with Cells, but that is not 
the case with Matrixes and their descendents. For those classes, a set 
of lighter-weight objects handle all the different contents, but there 
is only one object to coordinate drawing and event handling.

The other nice thing about Control/Cell interactions is that you can 
change the "internal" behavior of Controls just by writing new Cell 
subclasses and installing them with +setCellClass: "factory" methods. 
This is _very_ convenient for custom Matrixes, or TextFields with 
special validations. It's almost like doing a poseAs:.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: adpark.com
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Subject: coupons,contests,$ and more
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Coupons, contests, Free chance at $100,000.
 Earn $$ passing out isp diskettes almost anywhere in the country.
All this and more see: http://www.adpark.com
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From: sef@kithrup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5ilrej$bi2@taurus.adnc.com>
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From: arti@address.in.signature (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: bugs in OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.1 for NT
Date: 15 Apr 1997 04:19:54 GMT
Organization: LavaNet, Inc.
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jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn) wrote:

> Oh, one thing: maybe somebody has a pointer to a yacc/lex replacement
> for Windows NT, that can be called from within the Makefiles? 

    flex and bison are included with OS/NT and are more capable than the old 
BSD lex and yacc included with NS.  Support for flex and bison is included in 
OS/NT's Makefiles, although some changes from lex and yacc source will 
probably be required.
-- 
Art Isbell                       NeXT/MIME Mail: arti at lava dot net
Trego Systems (for whom I don't speak)     Voice/Fax: +1 808 394 0511
OPENSTEP/NT                               Voice Mail: +1 808 394 0495
   managed care solutions            US Mail: Honolulu, HI 96825-2638
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From: u8021804@cc.nctu.edu.tw ()
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOF and Oracle workgroup server
Date: 15 Apr 1997 04:00:58 GMT
Organization: National Chiao-Tung University, Taiwan
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Hi,
  When I select Oracle Adapter in EOModeler.app (in WOF 3.0 for NT) to
Connect to Oracle Workgroup Server 7.1 on NT, I get an error that
" ORA72.dll is not in the path........". I can only find ORA71win.dll or
ORA71dis.dll in ORAWIN/BIN folder of my system. Is it possible to connect EOF
to Oracle Workgroup Server? Is the adaptor come with EOF 2.0 is only for
Universal Server?

  Any helps are welcome.

  Thanks a lot!

TC

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From: S.P., Woodring
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Save money!!!
Date: 15 Apr 1997 01:13:58 GMT
Organization: DATAMAX
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From: sc@netcom.com
Subject: US-CA-Cupertino Mac/NeXT port
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Location: Cupertino
Start Date: NOW
Pay Rate: Open
Len: 3-6 months or fulltime

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contact:
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Ph: 408-338-1464
fx: 408-338-0211


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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Compiling and using msql
Message-ID: <1997Apr15.110849.47471@yogi.urz.unibas.ch>
From: frank@ifi.unibas.ch
Date: 15 Apr 97 11:08:49 MET
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Hello everybody,

I've been trying to compile and use the 2.0beta relase of the msql 
database available on the network on an OPENSTEP4.0 system running on an 
intel machine.

Thanks to the kind help of Fabien Roy, who sent me a working mmap(), and 
some hacking of linux sources to provide a missing strptime() function, 
I've been able to compile and install a version.

However, when trying to install the w3 stuff, I get lots of erorrs 
reporting that this or that is already present (it's the first 
installation on this machine!). By commenting out these commands, I 
finally get to the point at which the client successfully connects to the 
(running) server and tries to configure some tables. From that point on, 
the machine hangs and nothing goes anymore, not even an interrup!

Has anybody had any success with the 2.0 beta version under OPENSTEP4.0 
for mach?

Are there any other simple (and PD) data bases for OPENSTEP?

Thanks for any info. 
-Robert
-- 
Institut fuer Informatik           tel  +41 (0)61 321 99 67
Universitaet Basel                 fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15
Robert Frank                                        
Mittlere Strasse 142    rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail ok)  
CH-4056 Basel       X400: S=frank;OU=ifi;O=unibas;P=switch;A=arcom;C=ch
Switzerland  
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From: Valient Gough 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 02:40:39 -0700
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curranj@mskcc.org wrote:
[how to build a better Point]

>   I admit that it [ObjC] has benefits -- but only in rare circumstances ----
> Places where I could generally write a C++ code that allows it (prototype
> version posted elsewhere in this thread).  The point is I'd like to be
> able to turn it off for the 99% of the time where I don't need it.

[I inserted "[ObjC]" above]


The "prototype" code to give you ObjC benefits floating around in this
thread do not really give you the full benefits of ObjC.  It is true,
you can emulate the faculties of ObjC in C (or C++) - after all, ObjC's
runtime is written in C (gnu version at least).

The real problem isn't always with your own code.  It would be nice to
have such a large personal library that you never have to use external
code for GUI's, 3d rendering, network comm, etc... but that usually
isn't the case.  Most of the time, after a sufficiently large app,
either you'll have to use someone else's library, or someone else may
even be using yours.

If you get a library, and that person didn't compile in this run-time
binding emulator, or make the appropriate class members "virtual",
you're ability to reuse their code (ie compiled code, binary only) can
be significantly impared.

I know, without posting an example, this point will likely be
misunderstood.  So, at the risk of posting a misunderstood example,
consider again a Point, and an actor on a Point, defined in an external
library.  I will leave out the boring details of the internal
implementation, since no-one should care outside of the Point.

class Point
{
public:
   Point();
   int x();
   int y();
   set(int x, int y);
};

Now, say you had another *external* class (no source), that took a
Point, this could be a class member, it doesn't really matter.

void actOnPoint(Point *pnt);

Suppose, I then, in my own source, decided to create a type of Point,
say a PointOnLine that forced the point to always be on a line.

class PointOnLine : public Point
{
public:
   PointOnLine(const Line &line);
   int x();
   int y();
   set(int x, int y);
};

At this point, maybe you see what I'm getting at.  I've, in my *own*
source, defined PointOnLine.  Point and actOnPoint(Point*) are from an
external library.  Even though I can pass my PointOnLine type to
actOnPoint, it will not be able to use it correctly without breaking one
or more libraries.  Either I could make the Point methods virtual, which
require that I'm *able* to compile any other libs that use Point, or I
could try putting in a Point cast method in PointOnLine - which would
still likely break actOnPoint because you'd only have a snapshot of what
PointOnLine looked like at the time of the cast, but you can't assume
actOnPoint will not modify and re-use it.

In order to have truely resuable/extendable libraries in C++, you'd
probably need to define all members as virtual... otherwise you're
placing a limit on what another person could later override without
breaking other libraries or classes.  That still won't give you all the
functionality of ObjC, look back in this thread where I briefly talked
about automatically forwarding generic class types in ObjC, or look in
gnustep-base or NeXTStep examples...

This example is not what I'd call a "rare circumstance", it happens all
the time when trying to use existing third party libraries for new
purposes.

regards,
Val
####################################################################
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Subject: Re: bincancel:9 large binaries:AR1078:@@NCM
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References: 
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 08:21:12 GMT
From: red@redpoll.mrfs.oh.us (Richard E. Depew)
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Date: 15 Apr 1997 09:32:53 EST
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: Max Silberztein 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: problems with Openstep for Windows NT
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:30:14 +0100
Organization: LADL
Lines: 55
Message-ID: <3353AD16.2058@ladl.jussieu.fr>
Reply-To: silberz@ladl.jussieu.fr
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Hi,

I have had several problems with OpenStep 4.1 for Windows NT:

1. I could not install OpenStep 4.1 on a French Windows NT (the
installation program runs, and then says 'installation error', no
explanation).

2. After having bought an English Windows NT, the installation was
completed succesfully, but then:

2.1 It looks like the 'project server' (the indexer) doesn't run, even
if I click on Project->Indexing->Index Project. When I search for a
definition, I get the message 'project not indexed'. Nothing seems to
happen when I click on the 'i' buttons on the Project->Indexing->Show
Panel, and the status field is desperatly empty...

Is it possible that the PATH is not set properly, or the project server
is not where it should be, etc.? it is not a protection problem, since i
have the same problems if i run ProjectBuilder under Administrator. BTW,
here is what I get on the console when I launch Project builder:

Apr 01 14:42:06 ProjectBuilder[204] Lost connection to pbs object
"RulebookServer"
system error 38 (Reached end of file.): WriteFile(228, 28)
Apr 01 18:32:16 ProjectBuilder[131] Lost connection to pbs object
"RulebookServer"
Apr 01 18:32:17 ProjectBuilder[131] caught exception, stopping modal!
Apr 07 09:38:56 ProjectBuilder[160] CoLockObjectExternal failed on drop
target
Apr 07 09:38:56 ProjectBuilder[160] AppKit error: Error messaging drag
service
Apr 07 16:23:44 ProjectBuilder[188] Lost connection to pbs object
"RulebookServer"
Apr 07 16:23:44 ProjectBuilder[188] caught exception, stopping modal!
system error 38 (Reached end of file.): WriteFile(260, 28)
Apr 07 16:30:47 ProjectBuilder[195] Could not find image named
`__nilImage-0'.
Apr 07 16:31:11 InterfaceBuilder[74] PB removed Controller.m from
 for key IBProjectSourcesFileKey

2.2 I cannot set the Tools->Preferences->Miscalleneous->Editor to the
TextEdit application...

2.3 my Tools->Preferences->Key bindings gives a choice about tabs
(insert tab, ident only at beginning of line, ident always), but nothing
about Emacs keys... How do I set the keyboard so that ctrl-e goes to the
end of the line, ctrl-a at the beginning, etc.

To my surprise, I have seen nothing in the documentations, in
NextAnswers, nor in the news that speek about installation errors... Am
i the only one experiencing problems?

--Max Silberztein,
silberz@ladl.jussieu.fr
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From: brown@bibliotech.com (Robert E. Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Emacs 19.34 and OpenStep 4.x
Date: 03 Apr 1997 00:53:40 -0500
Organization: Bibliotech, Inc.
Lines: 8
Sender: brown@grettir
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X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34


Where can I find patches that will allow me to compile and install Emacs
version 19.34 on OpenStep 4.1?  I am not really interested in a NextStep
aware version of Emacs, just in getting the text only version working.

Thanks!

				bob
####################################################################
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From: Jessica Severin 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSSavePanel problems in Openstep/NT
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 20:29:00 -0500
Organization: University of WI - Madison, Dept. Chemistry
Lines: 101
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Hello,

I've tried everything I can think of and I can't get the SavePanel to
correctly display the active save type in Openstep/NT 4.1 with 
Windows NT 4.0.

  Our application can save out to 7 different formats.  On NextStep we
originally implemented this as a popuplist of types in an accessory view
to the SavePanel.  This still works fine in Openstep/Mach.  When the
user selects a different item in the popuplist it executes the method
-switchSaveFormat.  Note this is all occurring during the savePanels
runModal loop. (savePanel and saveFormat are object level variables).

this is part of the setup of the NSSavePanel when the user selects
saveAs from the menu
  savePanel = [[NSSavePanel savePanel] retain];
  [savePanel setAccessoryView:savePanelExtn];
  [savePanel setDelegate:self];
  extn = [self activeSaveExtension];
  [savePanel setRequiredFileType:extn];
  [savePanel validateVisibleColumns];
  dirName = [NSString stringWithCString:currentFileName];
  fileName = [dirName lastPathComponent];
  fileName = [fileName stringByDeletingPathExtension];
  dirName = [dirName stringByDeletingLastPathComponent];
  if([savePanel runModalForDirectory:dirName file:fileName]) {
    //stuff
  }

- (void)switchSaveFormat:sender
{
  //sender is a NSPopUpButton
  NSString   *extn;
  
  saveFormat = [sender indexOfSelectedItem];
  extn = [self activeSaveExtension];
  [savePanel setRequiredFileType:extn];
  NSLog(@"switch savetype to %@", extn);
  [savePanel validateVisibleColumns];
}

- (NSString*)activeSaveExtension
{
  NSString     *extn;
  switch(saveFormat) {
    case 0: extn = @"lanes"; break;
    case 1: extn = @"seqd"; break;
    case 2: extn = @"dat"; break;
    case 3: extn = @"bfd"; break;
    case 4: extn = @"seq"; break;
    case 5: extn = @"scf"; break;
    case 6: extn = @"scfd"; break;
    case 7: extn = @"fasta"; break;
    default: extn = [NSString string]; break;
  }
  return [[extn copy] autorelease];
}

- (BOOL)panel:(id)sender shouldShowFilename:(NSString *)filename
{
  NSString     *extn;
  NSLog(@"validate file %@", filename);
  extn = [self activeSaveExtension];
  if([extn isEqualToString:[filename pathExtension]]) return YES;
  else return NO;
}

According to the 4.1 release notes.....

NSSavePanel now inherits from NSObject in the OpenStep specification to
gain greater portability. This means that although on Mach NSSavePanel
is implemented as a subclass of NSPanel, methods inherited from NSPanel
and NSWindow are not considered part of the spec. In fact, on Windows
NSSavePanel is implemented as subclass of NSObject since we are using
the native UI.

A new method has been added to the SavePanel to validate the visible
columns. For instance, say your filtering criteria have changed. Call
this method to get the correct files displayed:

- (void)validateVisibleColumns;

And the NT oneline documentation for NSSavePanel added this note to the
description of -validateVisibleColumns:

One situation in which this method would find use is whey you want the
browser show only files with certain extensions based on the selection
made in an accessory-view pop-up list.

This is exactly what I'm doing.

THIS CODE DOES NOTHING TO UPDATE THE SAVEPANEL TO THE CURRENT
REQUIREDFILETYPE OR CHANGE THE PANEL IN ANYWAY.  My program doesn't even
appear to be executing the -panel:shouldShowFilename: method after it
called -validateVisibleColumn

Is this a BUG in Openstep or am I coding this wrong?

Thanks for any help.

Jessica Severin
####################################################################
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From: jesjones@halcyon.com (Jesse Jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 21:02:06 -0700
Organization: Edmark
Lines: 78
Message-ID: 
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>   <33144F92.4095@online.disney.com> <5f5kn3$ndq@lal.interserv.com> <5fbln2$31e$3@news.xmission.com> <5fcss2$93i@lal.interserv.com> <5g0apb$a@news.ml.com> <5gde7t$4f5@lal.interserv.com> <5glbme$4q7@news.ml.com> <5gtf7v$2j@lal.interserv.com> <5hb805$fo6@news.ml.com> <5hl994$2nm@lal.interserv.com> <5hniko$ao0@news.ml.com> <859829717.6893@dejanews.com> <5hrt9h$6s2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>  <3342B315.1B07@claris.com> <5hufks$pip$1@darla.visi.com>
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:210224 comp.sys.next.advocacy:63972 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:21938 comp.sys.next.programmer:24110 comp.lang.objective-c:5612

In article <5hufks$pip$1@darla.visi.com>, David Young  wrote:

> In comp.sys.next.advocacy Richard Cave  wrote:
> > I know it sounds sick, but that's how it works.  The init method _is_
> > the constructor.  The alloc method gives you back essentially
> > uninitialized memory.  The purpose of the init method is to give some
> > initial state to the object.  

[snip]

> + alloc and - init are just methods. Like any other method in ObjC,
> you can forward it to super, which is how ObjC implements inheritance.
> 
> Treating a constructor differently from other methods is ridiculous
> for a true object oriented language like ObjC. To get a new instance
> of an object, you send a message to a class - which is also an object.
> "alloc" means allocate and "init" means initialize. You give the
> instance user the option of initializing the object in different ways.
> Aren't more flexible objects a good thing? I think so. 

Evidently Richard and I haven't been clear enough in communicating the
problem. Perhaps an example will help. (I'll do this in C++ since I don't
know Objective-C well enough).

class Base {

public:
//   Base();
       // No ctor since we're using Obj-C style initialization.

   virtual void Init()                {Foo();}

   virtual void Foo()     {}
};

class Derived : public Base {

   typedef Base Inherited;

public:
 //   Derived();
       // No ctor since we're using Obj-C style initialization.

  virtual void Init()     {Inherited::Init(); mData = new long;}

   virtual void Foo()     {*mData = 100;}

protected:
   long* mData;
};

Derived object = new Derived;
object->Init();

With C++ this will result in a crash because Base::Init is calling a
virtual function before the object is fully constructed. This, of course,
is the reason you can't call a virtual function in a constructor
polymorphicly. From what everyone has said this sort of thing will also
cause a crash in Objective-C. Is this really true?

> > I think the convention
> > in this case is to call super init first, then carry on with your
> > method.  FWIW, Java has some of the same "conventions".  You're right
> > that calling a virtual method in this environment is full of danger,
> > don't try an invariant in an init method.
> 
> Full of danger, indeed, for those unwilling to grasp the most basic
> of programming concepts. I suppose the language should prevent you
> from using unmalloc'd pointers, too? Wait, let's add in array size
> checking while we're at it.
> 
> The flexibility is there for those who want to use it. If you're
> afraid of it, stay away. Maybe you should all be Pascal advocates.

No need for (attempted) slurs; we're just trying to further our
understanding of Objective-C. 

  --Jesse
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From: red@redpoll.mrfs.oh.us (Richard E. Depew)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ignore: Fix and Go subproject - source (40kb)
Control: cancel <5j0ver$nc4$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk>
Sender: johnh@madcow.dircon.co.uk (John Holdsworth)
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 97 01:01:04 GMT
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Canceling large binary file posted to unmoderated discussion group
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From: Joachim F. Kainz 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: JOB OFFER: OpenStep Software Engineer
Date: 17 Apr 1997 00:07:57 GMT
Organization: HoloNet National Internet Access System: 510-704-1058/modem
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5j3pkt$fbc@colossus.holonet.net>
Reply-To: Joachim F. Kainz 
NNTP-Posting-Host: cerebeus.esystem.com

Software production company, specializing in the development of  
object-oriented software for the marine terminal industry, offers  
immediate positions for OpenStep software developers.

You should have a B.Sc. in computer sciences or equivalent work experience  
and more than three years in NeXTStep and OPENSTEP environment. EOF  
experience a big plus.

Located in Alameda, CA on "Silicon Island", this mid-sized company offers  
a competitive salary, benefits, and pension package along with a casual  
and flexible working environment. Only self-starters who seek a  
challenging, career-expanding project need apply. Send your resume to

	Embarcadero Systems Corporation
	Attention: Joachim F. Kainz
	1255 Harbor Bay Parkway
	Alameda, CA 94502
	
	Fax: (510) 749 3800
	E-Mail: Joachim.Kainz@esystem.com (NeXTmail welcome)
####################################################################
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From: Luke Blanshard 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,gnu.gcc.help,gnu.gcc.bugs
Subject: Re: Hole in preprocessor support of Obj-C?
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 1997 19:47:22 -0500
Organization: VNP Software, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <3355731A.24A@vnp.com>
References: <5j117u$oe6@medusa.is.com>
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I submitted a bug report to Next maybe a year and a half ago about
this.  I haven't tried it again lately, but I doubt if it's fixed.  The
real issue, I think, is that no one wants to mess with the preprocessor
because it's not ObjC-specific.

The workaround is to surround your NSString constructor with
parentheses.  The preprocessor treats parenthesized expressions as
indivisible chunks, but not expressions surrounded by square brackets.


Josh DuBois wrote:
> 
>         Hey, there -
> 
>                 someone here just noticed what looks to me like a hole in
> gcc's preprocesor support for Obj-C.  We're trying to implement a macro
> for exception raising...
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: gcc for NeXT
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 17:58:19 -0700
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
Lines: 20
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If you did not purchase the developer tools, then you will have to get
them.  Since you are an edu-folk, you can get the edu price of $300.00.

You cannot just get gcc because you need all the libraries, etc that only
come with the developer set.

TjL


-- 
TjL      http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/ 
"Give a man a piece of working code and you solve his problem.
 Teach a man to write code and you give him a 
 lifetime of new problems"	-- me
 
 



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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rejoice! BSD 4.4 is coming
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:47:07 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
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John C. Randolph :

> Well, I just heard it from the fourth source inside NeXT's engineering
> groups, and what I'm hearing is that the BSD code in Rhapsody is
> *finally* getting upgraded to BSD 4.4!
> 
> This means we get: append-only files and filesystems, the LFS, 64-bit
> filesystems (i.e, no more 2 gig partition limit!)

I really hope this is true...

Dirk


-- 
           Site of the Day: http://www.microsnot.com/

    Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany
          http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
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From: Kresten Krab Thorup 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,gnu.gcc.help,gnu.gcc.bugs
Subject: Re: Hole in preprocessor support of Obj-C?
Date: 17 Apr 1997 16:18:28 +0200
Organization: DAIMI, Computer Science Dept. of Aarhus Univ.
Lines: 30
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	and errorString is an NSString*.  The problem is that sometimes  
        I'd like to say

		ERROR(ERRORTYPE1, [NSString stringWithFormat:@"foo : %@",  
          [self bar]])

	so I can pass a string generated with printf-style formatting.   
        The problem is that the preprocessor chokes with something like :

       /CashierPayment.m:209: macro `ISLogError' used with too many (3) args

	apperantly concerned about the two commas, despite the fact that  
        one of them is, in reality, part of an expression that should (IMHO) be  
        treated as a single macro argument.

You can probably work around this problem by enclosing the second
argument to ERROR with a pair of parentheses:

	ERROR(ERRORTYPE1, ( [NSString ... , ... ] ));

-- Kresten

  _            _    ___    _      _       _                     _ _    
 | | _ _ _ __ | |_ / _ \ _| | __ (_)_ _ _(_)   __   __  _ _   _| | | _ 
 | |/ | '_|_ \|   ' / _ / ` ||_ \| | ' ' | |  |_ \ |_ \| | | / ` | |/ |
 |   <| | / . | | | \__( (| / _  | | | | | |_/ _  / _  | | |( (| |   < 
 |_|\_|_| \_,_|_,_/\___/\_,_\__,_|_|_|_|_|_(_)__,_\__,_\_,_(_)_,_|_|\_|



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From: markfr@markfr .cse.tek.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Makefile.dependencies for C++
Date: 17 Apr 1997 17:25:12 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR USA
Lines: 8
Distribution: USA
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NNTP-Posting-Host: markfr.cse.tek.com

Does anyone know how I can get Project Builder
to generate the correct dependencies for a project
I am building with C++ integrated with Objective C.
At the present time, it just ignores the C++ files
in 'Other Sources' when I do a build with 'depend'
as the target.
- Thanks for your help, Mark
markfr@markfr.cse.tek.com
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From: duboisj@gondolin.is.com (Josh DuBois)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,gnu.gcc.help,gnu.gcc.bugs
Subject: Hole in preprocessor support of Obj-C?
Date: 15 Apr 1997 22:59:10 GMT
Organization: Integrity Solutions, Inc.
Lines: 43
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5615 comp.sys.next.programmer:24117 gnu.gcc.help:18582

	Hey, there -

		someone here just noticed what looks to me like a hole in  
gcc's preprocesor support for Obj-C.  We're trying to implement a macro  
for exception raising - we'd like to do something like :


#define ERROR(errorType, errorString) \
[NSException raise:errorType\
			format:[NSString stringWithFormat:@"%@ at %s :  
%d", \
				errorString, __FILE__, __LINE__]]


	where errorType is one of something like

#define ERRORTYPE1 @"ErrorTypeOne"

	and errorString is an NSString*.  The problem is that sometimes  
I'd like to say

		ERROR(ERRORTYPE1, [NSString stringWithFormat:@"foo : %@",  
[self bar]])

	so I can pass a string generated with printf-style formatting.   
The problem is that the preprocessor chokes with something like :

/CashierPayment.m:209: macro `ISLogError' used with too many (3) args

	apperantly concerned about the two commas, despite the fact that  
one of them is, in reality, part of an expression that should (IMHO) be  
treated as a single macro argument.

	part of my problem may be that I'm using gcc 2.5.8  - does anyone  
know if this problem has been fixed in more recent versions?  (also, as  
may be clear from my examples, I'm on a NeXT).  Am I missing something in  
wanting this feature - i.e., is this not a *bug,* but a necessity for some  
reason?

		Thanks for any help,

				Josh.

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From: Matthew.Healy@yale.edu (Matthew D. Healy)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 1997 13:49:18 -0500
Organization: Yale Center For Medical Informatics
Lines: 35
Message-ID: 
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In article , sjh@idm.com (Steven J Haworth) wrote:

...
> > We can have the "Open and Shut Window Technique" Y2K correction
> > code inserted into your programs with or w/o testing as desired!
> > No problem!  Reasonable rates!
> 
> Without testing.  What a novel idea.
> Now there's a sure-fire way to develop solid code.

A friend who works for a utility company that is nearing the end of
their Y2K project recently told me that well over half of their
project cost was the cost of exhuastive testing.  They had to
rent mucho hours time on somebody else's mainframe to run all
their mission-critical programs in a realistic simulation of their
actual environment on future dates beginning in late 1999.

They found lots of things they missed with such end-to-end testing
of the entire system.  Expensive, yes, but the cost of *not* testing
could well have been enormous.

They are still worried about things like departmental spreadsheets
that never got documented so MIS has no record of them.

In 988 days we shall all find out which organizations did *not* 
test sufficiently...

Big fun.  I can understand why some famous database guru (I forget who)
told an interviewer that he planned to spend the entire month of January
2000 in a place where there were neither computers nor telephones!
---------
As of 17 Apr 1997, 988 days till Y2K....
Matthew.Healy@yale.edu
http://paella.med.yale.edu/~healy
"But I thought it was pointed at the rabbit *between* my feet!"
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From: ovidiu@bx.logicnet.ro (Ovidiu Predescu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Hole in preprocessor support of Obj-C?
Date: 17 Apr 1997 12:45:17 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 60
Sender: ovidiu@bx.logicnet.ro
Message-ID: <199704171933.WAA00417@m45>
Reply-To: Ovidiu Predescu 
MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 15 Apr 1997 22:59:10 GMT, Josh DuBois wrote:

> Hey, there -
>
> someone here just noticed what looks to me like a hole in
> gcc's preprocesor support for Obj-C. We're trying to implement a
> macro for exception raising - we'd like to do something like :
>
>
> #define ERROR(errorType, errorString) \
> [NSException raise:errorType\
> format:[NSString stringWithFormat:@"%@ at %s :
> %d", \
> errorString, __FILE__, __LINE__]]
>
>
> where errorType is one of something like
>
> #define ERRORTYPE1 @"ErrorTypeOne"
>
> and errorString is an NSString*.  The problem is that sometimes
> I'd like to say
>
> ERROR(ERRORTYPE1, [NSString stringWithFormat:@"foo : %@",
> [self bar]])
>
> so I can pass a string generated with printf-style formatting.
> The problem is that the preprocessor chokes with something like :
>
> /CashierPayment.m:209: macro `ISLogError' used with too many (3)
> args
>
> apperantly concerned about the two commas, despite the fact that  
> one of them is, in reality, part of an expression that should
> (IMHO) be treated as a single macro argument.
>
> part of my problem may be that I'm using gcc 2.5.8  - does anyone  
> know if this problem has been fixed in more recent versions?  
(also,
> as may be clear from my examples, I'm on a NeXT). Am I missing
> something in wanting this feature - i.e., is this not a *bug,* but
> a necessity for some reason?
>
> Thanks for any help,
>
> Josh.

What you need is macros with variable number of arguments. You can  
define your macro like this:

#define ERROR(errorType, errorString...) \
  [NSException raise:errorType \
    format:[NSString stringWithFormat:@"%@ at %s : %d", \
		##errorString, __FILE__, __LINE__]]

But attention, this a relatively new feature, I don't think NeXT's  
cc supports it. It works for sure in the 2.7.x compilers and I think  
in 2.6.x.

Ovidiu
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From: andreas@lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Experiences about  EOF & OpenBase 5.0
Date: 18 Apr 1997 07:49:30 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
Lines: 13
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Hello,

I've just started to do my first steps with EOF using OpenBase 5.0. They 
provide their own adaptor and the thing seems to work somehow, but I'm not 
getting further anymore. I studied the ENTERPRISE OBJECT'S FRAMEWORK 
DEVELOPER'S GUIDE delivered with OpenStep, but this one is only a very rough 
introduction to the matter.
Does anyone has expierences developing software with this combination and is 
inclined to share it, or at least can give me a book-recommendation to get 
any further?

Andreas Hoeschler

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From: Jelske.Kloppenburg@gmd.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: PSDoUserPath & dps_inufill
Date: 18 Apr 1997 08:47:49 GMT
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
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I don't know how to use PSDoUserPath with dps_inufill.
Could anybody e-mail me a short example, please.

Thanks j.k.

-- 
  Jelske Kloppenburg, +49 2241 14-2433, 
  GMD - German National Research Center for Information Technology
                    "Don't kill the Winners!"   Dennis Tsichritzis

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From: wam@zoo.bt.co.uk (Wayne Morrison)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: History keys ^P, ^N, ^B, ^F
Date: 18 Apr 1997 09:39:46 GMT
Organization: BT Labs, Martlesham Heath, Ipswich, UK
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How do I set up Terminal.app so that I can shuffle through the command 
history list with the Cursor keys (or at least with a Ctrl-Cursor modifier) 
as opposed to using:
^P move up through history
^N move down through history
^B move left along the current command
^F move right along the current command

I saw something on the FAQ that used emacs macros but was unable to get it to 
work. I've also set up my keymapping for the cursors but Terminal.app refuses 
to recognise the cursor press.

Thanks for any help,

	Wayne
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From: rdogra@nowhere.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: History keys ^P, ^N, ^B, ^F
Date: 18 Apr 1997 12:53:21 GMT
Organization: Internet MCI
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wam@zoo.bt.co.uk (Wayne Morrison) wrote:
>
>
>How do I set up Terminal.app so that I can shuffle through the 
command 
>history list with the Cursor keys (or at least with a Ctrl-Cursor 
modifier) 
>as opposed to using:
>^P move up through history
>^N move down through history
>^B move left along the current command
>^F move right along the current command
>
>I saw something on the FAQ that used emacs macros but was unable to 
get it to 
>work. I've also set up my keymapping for the cursors but 
Terminal.app refuses 
>to recognise the cursor press.
>
>Thanks for any help,
>
>	Wayne


Hi

From man page of csh:

		.
		.
		.

HOW TO ENABLE THE EXTENDED C-SHELL FEATURES
     To enable the extended C-Shell features, put the line:

               set editmode = emacs

     in the .cshrc file in your home directory.  If you don't
     have such a file, create one and add the line to the end.
     Log out and log in again and you will be using the new
     shell.

		.
		.
		.

Rajnish
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From: giddings@menominee.chem.wisc.edu (Michael Giddings)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: History keys ^P, ^N, ^B, ^F
Date: 18 Apr 1997 19:23:27 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison
Lines: 28
Message-ID: <5j8hnf$4ns4@news.doit.wisc.edu>
References: <5j7fh2$o45@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk> <5j7qs1$87l$1@news.internetmci.com>
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In <5j7qs1$87l$1@news.internetmci.com> rdogra@nowhere.com wrote:
> HOW TO ENABLE THE EXTENDED C-SHELL FEATURES
>      To enable the extended C-Shell features, put the line:
> 
>                set editmode = emacs
> 
>      in the .cshrc file in your home directory.  If you don't
>      have such a file, create one and add the line to the end.
>      Log out and log in again and you will be using the new
>      shell.
>
> Rajnish
> 

This doesn't enable the arrow keys (or at least I've never been able to get 
it to do so).  The easiest way I've found to get arrow keys (and lot's of 
other neat features) is intsalling Bash.  There is a pre-compiled binary for 
it  at ftp.next.peak.org.

Good luck.
--
Michael Giddings
giddings@chem.wisc.edu 
giddings@barbarian.com
(608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851
http://smithlab.chem.wisc.edu/PersonalPages/giddings/giddings.html
http://www.barbarian.com

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From: jan@obed-le0.cs.ualberta.ca (Jan Sacharuk)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,gnu.emacs.help
Subject: emacs meta-key on NeXT..
Date: 18 Apr 1997 12:52:45 -0600
Organization: U of Eh?
Lines: 7
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Is there any way to set the meta key to be anything but the escape
key? It's usually not to bad, but it gets tiring to scroll up and hit
the alternate key (which I'm used to), and getting weird garbage.

Thanks. 

Jan Sacharuk
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From: goldman@visi.com (Matthew Goldman)
Newsgroups: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Subject: Re: Y2K Is Rapidly Becoming an Untouchable Problem
Followup-To: alt.comp.shareware.programmer,comp.databases.adabas,comp.databases.sybase,comp.lang.cobol,comp.os.os2.misc,comp.os.os2.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.misc,comp.unix.programmer
Date: 18 Apr 1997 20:23:44 GMT
Organization: Vector Internet Services, Inc.
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Matthew D. Healy (Matthew.Healy@yale.edu) wrote:
: In 988 days we shall all find out which organizations did *not* 
: test sufficiently...
: 
: Big fun.  I can understand why some famous database guru (I forget who)
: told an interviewer that he planned to spend the entire month of January
: 2000 in a place where there were neither computers nor telephones!

Isn't that going to be anywhere in the known world?

:-)

Matt

-- 
  O      O            __ |     \|                             O       O    
 /|\   -/-   _ __\ O    _\O     |/      (/              O/    /\-    /|\
 / \   / )    /   \       |    /O    _ O/_   _ O_ ^_   / \^_   )\    / \
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Goldman       E-mail: goldman@visi.com Home: (612) 535-5220
                                               Work: (612) 883-6640
My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone, 
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: bugs in OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.1 for NT
Date: 18 Apr 1997 21:13:10 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Lines: 28
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jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn) wrote:
> 
> We recently have become the proud owners of a copy of OPENSTEP
> Enterprise Release 4.1 for Windows NT, and have begun to try to compile
> our software, that we have been porting to the OpenStep specifications
> (on our Mach machines with OPENSTEP 4.0) for the past few months. 
> 
> We would like your comments (and commiserations) on the following bugs:
> 
> * One nasty surprise was that the compiler does not grok RTF formatted
> source code. (Why does ProjectBuilder have a Format menu then?) 

I've heard that 4.2 does support RTF source code. Maybe you should hold 
out...

Also, the Format menu is still useful for documentation and resources that 
are RTF.

If you have further problems, I have found that in general, ProjectBuilder 
crashes less often when indexing is turned off.

You may not have noticed this, but gcc crashes when trying to build 
precompilation files and there is no precompiled header for Foundation or 
AppKit. I find building projects to be much slower under NT.

Good luck.

-Chuck
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From: woll@msc.cornell.edu (Arthur Woll)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,gnu.emacs.help
Subject: Re: emacs meta-key on NeXT..
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,gnu.emacs.help
Date: 18 Apr 1997 21:17:27 GMT
Organization: Cornell-Materials-Science-Center
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: 
: Is there any way to set the meta key to be anything but the escape
: key? It's usually not to bad, but it gets tiring to scroll up and hit
: the alternate key (which I'm used to), and getting weird garbage.
: 
: Thanks. 
: 

xmodmap is an X program which can bind keys in the X-environment, and
can be used to set up meta-keys. I use xev (another client) to find
the "keycode" for a key and the bind it using xmodmap.  Actually,
xmodmap is run automacially, (from within my .cshrc I think) and I've
got the following lines in my .xmodmaprc file:

keycode 64 = Meta_L
keycode 113 = Meta_R

keycodes 64 and 113 are what my left and right alt keys generate.
Meta_L and Meta_R are referred to as keysyms.  These keysyms can (at
least I think this is how it works) then be bound to modifier keys.
Typing xmodmap with no arguments will show you what keysyms  (with
keycodes in octal in parens) are bound to what modifier keys.  For me,
the above lines were all that were necessary
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From: steve.trainoff@wyatt.com (Steven Trainoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Openstep Plotting palette
Date: 18 Apr 1997 14:11:49 GMT
Organization: A client of: Silicon Beach - Business Internet Services
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Does anyone have a recommendation for a good plotting palette for openstep; 
preferable with source?   I am interested in anything that I could get 
working quickly, whether PD, shareware, or commercial.

--
...STeve
steve.trainoff@wyatt.com	(NeXT and MIME mail welcome)

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From: "Prince Akim" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Over- Clocking cpu
Date: 19 Apr 1997 01:08:33 GMT
Organization: Anderson & Sons
Lines: 4
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I have a P166 w/ Endeavor M.B.....how do I over-clock and to what is my
limit?
thank you...
prnz@ix.netcom.com
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From: kwong@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Kai S. Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NeXT Mail Spec?
Date: 19 Apr 1997 02:32:00 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <5j9ar1$3u7@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>
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Hello all,
	Anyone know where can i find the spec. for NeXT Mail?  Info.
appreciated.

kai
kwong@comnetix.com
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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Objective C? (Long)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 1997 15:04:43 +0200
Organization: pv
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Kenneth C. Dyke  wrote:

> Here's my current test-bed code:

  [ ... ]

> It is interesting to compare the assembly output of the compiler for 
> the two test functions.

Indeed!

> Now, I will be happy to eat my words if someone can show me a) how to
> write the C++ vector routines that use operator overloading to generate
> the 'efficient' code, or b) someone can show me a compiler that is 
> smart enough to 'figure it out' on it's own somehow.

You satisfied case (a) yourself and Apple's MrC[pp] deals with case (b).
See below.

> Are there any C++ compilers that will generate code like that using 
> operator overloading?  If not, what's the damned point?  I don't think
> pretty syntax is a worthy tradeoff for inefficient code.

This is what Apple's MrC[pp] does:

1) the vector class straight from your posting:

void doit(const Vector &a, const Vector &b, const Vector &c, Vector &d)
{
        d = a + b * c;
}
Name=".doit__FRC6VectorT1T1R6Vector"(3)  Size=76
00000000: 81840000  lwz      r12,0(r4)
00000004: 80E50008  lwz      r7,8(r5)
00000008: 81440004  lwz      r10,4(r4)
0000000C: 81640008  lwz      r11,8(r4)
00000010: 80050000  lwz      r0,0(r5)
00000014: 81250004  lwz      r9,4(r5)
00000018: 7D6B39D6  mullw    r11,r11,r7
0000001C: 7C0C01D6  mullw    r0,r12,r0
00000020: 81830008  lwz      r12,8(r3)
00000024: 7D4A49D6  mullw    r10,r10,r9
00000028: 81230000  lwz      r9,0(r3)
0000002C: 81030004  lwz      r8,4(r3)
00000030: 7D8B6214  add      r12,r11,r12
00000034: 91860008  stw      r12,8(r6)
00000038: 7C004A14  add      r0,r0,r9
0000003C: 90060000  stw      r0,0(r6)
00000040: 7C0A4214  add      r0,r10,r8
00000044: 90060004  stw      r0,4(r6)
00000048: 4E800020  blr

void doit2(Vec *a, Vec *b, Vec *c, Vec *d)
{
        vec3muladd(b,c,a,d);
}
Name=".doit2__FP3VecT1T1T1"(4)  Size=76
00000000: 80040000  lwz      r0,0(r4)
00000004: 80E50000  lwz      r7,0(r5)
00000008: 7D0039D6  mullw    r8,r0,r7
0000000C: 81230000  lwz      r9,0(r3)
00000010: 7D484A14  add      r10,r8,r9
00000014: 91460000  stw      r10,0(r6)
00000018: 81640004  lwz      r11,4(r4)
0000001C: 81850004  lwz      r12,4(r5)
00000020: 7C0B61D6  mullw    r0,r11,r12
00000024: 81830004  lwz      r12,4(r3)
00000028: 7C006214  add      r0,r0,r12
0000002C: 90060004  stw      r0,4(r6)
00000030: 80040008  lwz      r0,8(r4)
00000034: 81850008  lwz      r12,8(r5)
00000038: 7C0061D6  mullw    r0,r0,r12
0000003C: 81830008  lwz      r12,8(r3)
00000040: 7C006214  add      r0,r0,r12
00000044: 90060008  stw      r0,8(r6)
00000048: 4E800020  blr


2) The vector class with float instead of int, as you suggested:

void doit(const Vector &a, const Vector &b, const Vector &c, Vector &d)
{
        d = a + b * c;
}
Name=".doit__FRC6VectorT1T1R6Vector"(4)  Size=64
00000000: C0A40000  lfs      fp5,0(r4)
00000004: C0E30000  lfs      fp7,0(r3)
00000008: C0640004  lfs      fp3,4(r4)
0000000C: C0C50000  lfs      fp6,0(r5)
00000010: C0840008  lfs      fp4,8(r4)
00000014: C0050008  lfs      fp0,8(r5)
00000018: C1A50004  lfs      fp13,4(r5)
0000001C: ED0539BA  fmadds   fp8,fp5,fp6,fp7
00000020: C0430008  lfs      fp2,8(r3)
00000024: C0230004  lfs      fp1,4(r3)
00000028: D1060000  stfs     fp8,0(r6)
0000002C: ED44103A  fmadds   fp10,fp4,fp0,fp2
00000030: D1460008  stfs     fp10,8(r6)
00000034: ED230B7A  fmadds   fp9,fp3,fp13,fp1
00000038: D1260004  stfs     fp9,4(r6)
0000003C: 4E800020  blr

void doit2(Vec *a, Vec *b, Vec *c, Vec *d)
{
        vec3muladd(b,c,a,d);
}
Name=".doit2__FP3VecT1T1T1"(5)  Size=64
00000000: C0230000  lfs      fp1,0(r3)
00000004: C0050000  lfs      fp0,0(r5)
00000008: C1A40000  lfs      fp13,0(r4)
0000000C: EC4D083A  fmadds   fp2,fp13,fp0,fp1
00000010: D0460000  stfs     fp2,0(r6)
00000014: C0640004  lfs      fp3,4(r4)
00000018: C0850004  lfs      fp4,4(r5)
0000001C: C0A30004  lfs      fp5,4(r3)
00000020: ECC3293A  fmadds   fp6,fp3,fp4,fp5
00000024: D0C60004  stfs     fp6,4(r6)
00000028: C0E40008  lfs      fp7,8(r4)
0000002C: C1050008  lfs      fp8,8(r5)
00000030: C1230008  lfs      fp9,8(r3)
00000034: ED474A3A  fmadds   fp10,fp7,fp8,fp9
00000038: D1460008  stfs     fp10,8(r6)
0000003C: 4E800020  blr


-- 
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se  -  Limt: lars.farm@limt.se
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 18:07:47 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <5i64dj$ii4$1@darla.visi.com>
References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>   <5hl994$2nm@lal.interserv.com> <5hniko$ao0@news.ml.com> <859829717.6893@dejanews.com> <5hrt9h$6s2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>  <3342B315.1B07@claris.com> <5hufks$pip$1@darla.visi.com>  <5i0sgp$10l$1@darla.visi.com>  <5i2d0h$nvb$2@darla.visi.com> 
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> The NeXT Objective-C manual recommends calling [super init] before doing
> your own initialization. Am I wrong in assuming that pretty much everyone
> does this?

You're not wrong. Pretty much everyone does this. However, if you're
planning on carelessly using your pointers throughout the object and
in methods you override, maybe you'd want to allocate space first and
call [super init] second. Technically, you can call [super init]
pretty much anywhere. It's up to the programmer to decide when it's
appropriate. Most of the time, the appropriate time is the first step
in - init, since the rest of your init code might need to call some
accessor metthods.

> So you object to C++ because it has a special rule outlawing polymorphism
> in ctors, but you like Objective-C where you can call an overriden method
> of a derived class that hasn't been inited? How can *anyone* prefer this?
> Even if this happens to work you're leaving yourself open for a real
> maintenance headache.

If the difference were that simple, I probably wouldn't mind. I can't
stand constructors, but I can tolerate Java. It's the lack of dynamic
binding that really makes me vomit. It's the virtual/nonvirtual method
concept that makes me ill. It's the half-assed dynamic typing and
introspection support that makes me run for the toilet.

The reason you're going insane about this is because you're trying to
program in Objective-C using C++ concepts. It doesn't model well for the
same reasons that I can't program in C++ and use concepts of dynamic
binding. To make assumptions about pointers in an overridden method is
poor programming practice, plain and simple.

I suppose you're arguing that the language a programmer programs in
should be more restrictive in order to keep the programmer from
making mistakes. This is the same issue as the static vs. dynamic typing
argument, and somehow I think neither side will ever be swayed to the other.

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: Objective C?
Date: 5 Apr 1997 18:25:26 GMT
Organization: ace dot net internet technologies
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References: <330E54AC.167E@innosys.com>   <5hl994$2nm@lal.interserv.com> <5hniko$ao0@news.ml.com> <859829717.6893@dejanews.com> <5hrt9h$6s2$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>  <3342B315.1B07@claris.com> <5hufks$pip$1@darla.visi.com>  <5i0tqq$qcg$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>  <5i2dki$nvb$3@darla.visi.com> 
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy Jesse Jones  wrote:
> Init methods are not like any other method and you cannot write them
> however you please if you care about the quality of your code. So, what is
> the canonical way to write an init method? Something like this maybe?

[snip]

This argument is stale. To write your example is a bug. Objective-C
doesn't try to artificially protect you from them. C++ makes a stab
at it with a sacrifice in flexibility.

> And why do you think I'm an advocate of C++? Because it does some things
> better than Objective-C? In fact I think C++ sucks, it just sucks less than
> any other language I've used. 

-- 
# david young: oo developer, think new ideas east/onramp
# vox: 212.629.6800 x170  phax: 212.629.6850
# net: david_young@thinkinc.com (MIME ok, NeXTmail better)
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From: steffi@dgs.dgsys.com (Robert Nicholson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep Developer needed in New York City
Date: 5 Apr 1997 13:30:02 -0500
Organization: Digital Gateway Systems
Lines: 7
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References: 
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What makes you the "Premier" recruiter?

I mean you don't even have your own domain name.

Q. How many people have you placed in the last 6 months?


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From: Joe Franklin
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Save over 50%
Date: 18 Apr 1997 17:35:12 GMT
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Lines: 14
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NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup20.ds1.livenet.net

I found some great deals that saved me over 50% on some products.
Some deals are better than others.  Just browse around and see if you
find something you like at the virtual Mall.
at http://members.aol.com/Jfrank1069
Happy bargain hunting!!!





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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT Mail Spec?
Date: 19 Apr 1997 07:18:22 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5j9rju$o07$2@news.xmission.com>
References: <5j9ar1$3u7@coranto.ucs.mun.ca>
Reply-To: don@ globalobjects.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: brain.misckit.com
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

kwong@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Kai S. Wong) wrote:
> 	Anyone know where can i find the spec. for NeXT Mail?  Info.
> appreciated.

There never was one published.  However, if you are having too hard a time 
figuring it out, look for a program called tnextmail on the NeXT archives.  
It is a portable command line program that can be built on just about any 
UNIX and allows you to send NeXTMail from the command line.

If that isn't help enough, I have some code, eventually destined for the 
MiscKit once it has been cleaned up enough, that will bundle up NeXTMail that 
I could email to you.  It's really ugly though...

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Joe Franklin
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5j8bcg$8pv$5631@PaperBoy.LiveNet.Net>
Control: cancel <5j8bcg$8pv$5631@PaperBoy.LiveNet.Net>
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 12:56:02 +0100
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Lines: 3
Approved: hweede@berlin.snafu.de
Message-ID: 
References: <5j8bcg$8pv$5631@PaperBoy.LiveNet.Net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: berlin.snafu.de
X-Cancelled-By: hweede@berlin.snafu.de
X-No-Archive: yes

EMP spam cancelled by hweede@berlin.snafu.de. The Breidbart index was 1809.
See report "members.aol.com/Jfrank1069" in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.
Subject was: Save over 50%.
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: emacs meta-key on NeXT..
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 1997 11:14:29 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 16
Message-ID: 
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: po9.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: 
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:29138 comp.sys.next.programmer:24138

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.software: 18-Apr-97 emacs meta-key
on NeXT.. by Jan Sacharuk@obed-le0.cs 
> Is there any way to set the meta key to be anything but the escape
> key?

Take a look at Terminal's Info->Preferences->VT100 Emulation panel; it
has three choices for the alternate key's behavior (generates escape
sequences, special characters, or sets the high bit).

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: qpw9urfl@908u5r.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: *Teen Deepthroat Cocksuckers !!! teencock.jpg
Date: 19 Apr 1997 23:49:06 GMT
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <5jblli$eju@bolivia.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.217.19.44


Check out this site, it has tons of young teens fucking and sucking cock !!!


http://www.sexy-girls.com
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Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!unlisys!news.mcs.de!cyberspam!usenet
From: qpw9urfl@908u5r.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5jblli$eju@bolivia.earthlink.net>
Control: cancel <5jblli$eju@bolivia.earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 1997 03:39:19 +1
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
Lines: 5
Approved: hweede@berlin.snafu.de
Message-ID: 
References: <5jblli$eju@bolivia.earthlink.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: berlin.snafu.de
X-Cancelled-By: hweede@berlin.snafu.de
X-No-Archive: yes

EMP/ECP spam cancelled by hweede@berlin.snafu.de. This is an ongoing spam
whose Breidbart index already is above 20.
See my report "sexy-girls.com"
or "summary of auto-cancellations" in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.
Subject was: *Teen Deepthroat Cocksuckers !!! teencock.jpg.
####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!news-nue1.dfn.de!news-lei1.dfn.de!news-ber1.dfn.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!newsfeed2!news.netusa1.net!usenet
From: 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: START a FREE Online Business TODAY
Date: 20 Apr 1997 00:34:22 GMT
Organization: NetUSA1 Inc.	
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5jboae$8p1@news.netusa1.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: kok-83.netusa1.net

*FREE* TURNKEY ONLINE BUSINESS

Build a residual income from time you spend on the Internet placing FREE 
advertisements.

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online. Place FREE advertisements and get paid residual commissions on
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and all you have to do is place pre-written ads online in your sparetime.
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your own "sales organization" where you can even earn commissions from the
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of your sales ONLINE!

PLEASE WRITE THIS DOWN:  GD2854


You will need the above code to join this FREE program.

For more information, retrieve an auto-reply from OVERVIEW@NETOPP.COM,
or visit: http://www.netopp.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
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online marketing tool to explode your business easier and faster. For more 
information please visit our web site at : http://www.australia.net.au/~apexpi/dynamail.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------

####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!nntp.uio.no!news.maxwell.syr.edu!ott.istar!news.istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!digifix!not-for-mail
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <15479860904022@digifix.com>
Date: 20 Apr 1997 03:59:34 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 344
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
Message-ID: <26385861508830@digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com
X-Mailer: Perl5 Mail::Internet v1.23
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:64546 comp.sys.next.announce:4152 comp.sys.next.hardware:28405 comp.sys.next.software:29151 comp.sys.next.misc:25642 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:26402 comp.sys.next.bugs:4274 comp.sys.next.programmer:24141


Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

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Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!howland.erols.net!feed1.news.erols.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news.Stanford.EDU!kithrup.com!cyberspam!not-for-mail
From: sef@kithrup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5jboae$8p1@news.netusa1.net>
Date: 20 Apr 1997 03:37:07 GMT
Control: cancel <5jboae$8p1@news.netusa1.net>
Message-ID: 
Sender: 
X-Cancelled-By: sef@kithrup.com
Approved: sef@kithrup.com
Lines: 1


Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com
####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-feed4.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.slip.net!news.slip.net!slip.net!not-for-mail
From: emclean@slip.net (Emmett McLean)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Seek work on when OS 4.2 will be released. New features
Date: 20 Apr 1997 00:43:31 -0700
Organization: Slip.Net
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5jchf3$24q@slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: slip-3.slip.net

Hi,

Has there been any word about when OS 4.2 will be
released. There is nothing about it at www.next.com.

What new features (especially for Mach) is it expected
to have?

I'm wondering because I getting tired of waiting for
it to come out.

Thanks,

Emmett

####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dircon!not-for-mail
From: johnh@madcow.dircon.co.uk (John Holdsworth)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Very simple subproject to Fix ang Go... (30kb)
Date: 20 Apr 1997 12:21:17 GMT
Organization: via Direct Connection News service
Lines: 409
Message-ID: <5jd1nt$536$1@newsserver.dircon.co.uk>
Reply-To: holdswj@gb.swissbank.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: madcow.dircon.co.uk


This is a subproject and some scripts that allow you to
develop Objective-C classes incrementally without having
to rebuild or even re-run your application project. Paste the
following into a file and pipe it into uudecode to get the
gzipped file. The idea is a simple one. Objective-C methods
in a category will overload those in the main class so
ClassBuilder simply turns the class into a category while
you work on it and run-time loads it into the application
rather than relinking the entire application.

I'm afraid I can't offer much support though it should be
easy enough to puzzle out any problems you may have from
the ReadMe.rtf file or the source. There isn't allot to it.

Happy Hacking.

JH.



begin 644 ClassBuilder.0.9.s.gnutar.gz
M'XL("&`#6C,``T-L87-S0G5I;&1E#P5P)E"R0(270I@B5(QJFCL@?@`)P-X#"X
M`RG&]BAL0<7C+VY5Q1.Y49WQQ!Y;[5B>3C]EFEII_:'?TN_YD';&^9!Q9^(/
MFDD[0QM];^\O@,,?PA#TQ_=`$'M[;W_[=M_NVW=[>[?1/"_+LQ4QGQ;*+KF2
M+)6EY]Q,?XGX/:%0B#"$$,[OI[^$\ZJ_*GD("?J\_E#(ZPT$X:3/'P@Q)-!G
M.6RI(BM\F1#F.2E7S+7A`[9,9A`"#9:B=OIWI<6R2Q'[55[.XPEJ>K?1/^?W
M>/RJ_@->GQ\8"!?P!H,,\?0G^_;T!=?__/PD\_)(Z_-#JP9%AFI`_W<`_S,8
M_BQ:,\(?G=;#GW[VMS4]_-GWXGIX]U]_RWBB3&D,XY__::IM\;^
M][V5N=MS9VL,>_72T"-7;GEJ^VK,\-+IW=@[_WRV]F$-&GMM]]"C!!(`_L'(
MBY$SU1?C'U+Y=P\>^IO3-'[7\V)\Y)T7#VCQ8[]XU*W&1T[%F3,O__LM+7[W
MT!4UGCD5/SWRS@YL<1/;[V"X$8X=LC+QOAW:$E(UP;N3ID:/W0'UB:0,32
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MS-S0Z>:GS,.Z"?GV;JMV\E5H7-#:(816?\@2'H;P,/["9Y\6C]\O6<*'H&$B
MS^1^AGE8B\?CPUJ\%^+_<&@_C0]#^#$M/`OA/[+P'[6$ERWX3Q]FF"_#[SDX
M$=&^W]]EF:]_R_Q],&AUO?^?>OQ:%W3C)J0:8\:ZX08^MGM\';D;*2SX^[O!
M!VQI;]B=\?7CUS]XY>;:I;UB=\;'^@#TFZ]0V?>.W@J?<:])*KZ*OH8UXU8_
M>+9]N!OYUZ0;-W7T7F7O++]:[R!]@ZQ6J7O!QU]L+VL2?G]=ZZY?=(NOHM,Z
M'UN37H=:^B7$-B%;Z@YO#WVVMC'ZZ^-)<:O
MJ3F\H7[K>3'.%A]RL+>1F`)S2(PGQ]4]4.7<_5'E^W[DVM&+%>Q7.)
M\<2X7H:).,;3\Y:^K/*VPF^4W"@S1:(YC-$R4#UXXR92(V\[?$L/?563Z54M
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Seek work on when OS 4.2 will be released. New features
Date: 20 Apr 1997 18:04:24 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Message-ID: <5jdlr8$ivb$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <5jchf3$24q@slip.net>
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On 04/20/97, Emmett McLean wrote:
>What new features (especially for Mach) is it expected
>to have?
>
I'd expect it to be a lot more robust, and a lot faster than 4.1.
The developer version should support options for deployment on W95.

Documentation etc. is likely to have suitably altered copyright notices.  
;-)

>I'm wondering because I getting tired of waiting for
>it to come out.
>
I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.  Particularly if prices come down.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 
Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm


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From: cjs@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Miles Standish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Apple Dev Conference -- when where howe much
Date: 20 Apr 1997 19:32:13 GMT
Organization: Oberlin College
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I'd like to attend the upcoming Apple Developer's conference, when is it

where is it

how much is it

discounts for stduents?

Thanks in advance!


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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple Dev Conference -- when where howe much
Date: 20 Apr 1997 22:04:21 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 04/20/97, Miles Standish wrote:
>
>I'd like to attend the upcoming Apple Developer's conference, when is 
it
>
>where is it
>
	San Jose, CA

>how much is it

	$995
>
>discounts for stduents?
>
	Nope.


check out devworld.apple.com for more information



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: akki@sic.co.jp (KAWAMATSU Akira)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q]fetch problem in EOF1.1
Date: 19 Apr 1997 09:23:19 GMT
Organization: Software Industrial Co., Ltd. Tokyo Japan.
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Hi all. I have a problem about 
using EOController's Fetch in EOF1.1.

When I tried to fetch, fetch progress SOMETIMES failed
with error messages. Not ALWAYS.
The message like this...

	"DBPROCESS is dead or not enabled"

my writing code that's all.
	[eocontroller fetch:self];

Does anyone knows why my fetch progress failed.
Please e-mail to me!!

thanks.
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From: pwoqiue@as;dlfj.com
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Subject: -Teen Masterbation * teen69.jpg
Date: 20 Apr 1997 22:15:06 GMT
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Check out this site, it has tons of young teens fucking and sucking cock !!!


http://www.sexy-girls.com
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Original Subject: -Teen Masterbation * teen69.jpg
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From: lhow@ecr.mu.oz.au (Luke HOWARD)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Seek work on when OS 4.2 will be released. New features
Date: 21 Apr 1997 02:58:28 GMT
Organization: Comp Sci, University of Melbourne
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Emmett McLean (emclean@slip.net) wrote:
: Hi,

: Has there been any word about when OS 4.2 will be
: released. There is nothing about it at www.next.com.

: What new features (especially for Mach) is it expected
: to have?

According to the release notes (I know nothing else), NetInfo
is somewhat improved.





-- Luke

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From: stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Image Filters w/o NSApplication
Date: 21 Apr 1997 10:07:18 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
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Hello all,

I wonder whether someone also has run into this problem: I have a small 
applet where I need to load images which happen not to be tiffs. Nothing 
works - in 3.3, I just had to create an instance of Application, and its mere 
presence fixed the problem. Under 4.2, this doesn't help. It loads TIFFs just 
fine.

Any suggestions are welcome. The only condition is that I can't call 

	[[NSApplication sharedApplication] run]

The "no run" condition is important :-)

Thanks for any suggestions you may have!
- Stan
---

Nature photography:   http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~stanj
NeXTmail and MIME:    stanj@cs.stanford.edu

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Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 16:42:57 +0200
From: Sean Hill 
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I'm trying to use D'OLE (Doh!) and I do something very simple, i.e:

   id  olebridge;
    id  matlabApp;

    olebridge = (id )[[NSConnection
    rootProxyForConnectionWithRegisteredName:@"NEXTORB.NSDO" host:@"*"]
    retain];

    if (!olebridge) {
                NSLog (@"Did not get connected...");
                return 0;
    } else {
        NSLog (@"Connected to NEXTORB");
        [olebridge setProtocolForProxy:@protocol(NEXTORB)];
    }

    matlabApp = [[olebridge
            objectWithRegisteredName:@"Matlab.Application"
            protocol:@"OLE" host:nil] retain];

And it connects fine to the ORB starts Matlab and crashes with the
following output.  I've tried with other OLE registered apps and it
crashes in the same manner.  Anybody have any ideas!?  BTW This is on
4.2pr1.

Thanks!
Sean
shill@iphysiol.unil.ch

Apr 21 16:35:36 MyApp[186] Connected to NEXTORB
Apr 21 16:35:47 MyApp[186] *** Uncaught exception:
 deserializeObjectAt: class
"NSDistantIDispatchProxy" not loaded
stack: 0x3203fa36 0x3203feb2 0x310119bd 0x31011a8f 0x3203fb04 0x3202db87
0x3202ebf5 0x32040100 0x310177b7 0x40121c 0x77f1afc1
exiting!

####################################################################
Message-ID: <335B5750.E03DAC9C@iphysiol.unil.ch>
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 14:02:24 +0200
From: Sean Hill 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: using Windows DLLs with OpenStep/NT
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)
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Does anyone know how to link an OpenStep/NT (4.1 or 4.2pr1) project so
that it can use functions in a regular Windows DLL?

I've tried adding it as a library or framework but that doesn't work.
I've tried linking it by hand.  Perhaps I have a fundamental
misunderstanding of what to do.

Thanks very much!
shill@iphysiol.unil.ch

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From: jth9904@chenext1.tamu.edu (Jeromy Hollenshead)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Executable Size vs Machine Specs
Date: 21 Apr 1997 18:34:14 GMT
Organization: Texas A&M University, College Station, Texas
Lines: 26
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Problem: We currently have 2 machines running NeXT/OpenStep.
         We are compiling fortran software (using the same version
         of f2c).  When we increase the size of given arrays, the   
         ld (link) fails on Machine 2, but not on Machine 1.
         The linker messages complain about crossing segment 	
	  boundaries.

         The 2 major differences between the 2 machines are the 
version
         of the compiler and the amount of RAM.  Can anyone tell me 
which
         is giving me the problem, and why?
         

Machine 1.
  PentiumPro, 64Mb RAM, running OpenStep 4.0 with
  cc Compiler version 475 with gcc version 2.5.8
  
Machine 2.
  Pentium, 40Mb RAM, running NeXTStep 3.3 with
  cc Compiler version 432.2.6 with gcc version 2.5.8
  

-- 

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From: alanf@izzy.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Addressbook format?
Date: 21 Apr 1997 20:22:45 GMT
Organization: "Comshare, Inc."
Lines: 11
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greetings etherial composite mind,
Can someone point me an example of how  a browser is populated by a 
"standard"  .addresses file?  The contact:group M:M relationship would be 
handled nicely by a SQL engine, but I don't think there's a working Public 
Domain one. 

Any help is greatly appreciated. 

Regards, 
Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net) 

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From: Paul Dorrell 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q]fetch problem in EOF1.1
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 23:14:05 +0200
Organization: Joanne CVCB
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <335BD89D.BCC@atinternet.com>
References: <5ja2u7$t5v$1@inetserv.sic.co.jp>
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To: KAWAMATSU Akira 

KAWAMATSU Akira wrote:
> 
> Hi all. I have a problem about
> using EOController's Fetch in EOF1.1.
> 
> When I tried to fetch, fetch progress SOMETIMES failed
> with error messages. Not ALWAYS.
> The message like this...
> 
>         "DBPROCESS is dead or not enabled"
> 
> my writing code that's all.
>         [eocontroller fetch:self];
> 
> Does anyone knows why my fetch progress failed.
> Please e-mail to me!!
> 
> thanks.

Yes, for some reason, you have been disconnected from sybase.
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From: icardena@sumter.cso.uiuc.edu (Ian Patrick Cardenas)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Image Filters w/o NSApplication
Date: 21 Apr 1997 21:46:22 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <5jgn7e$203@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>
References: <5jfe8m$5oh$1@nntp.Stanford.EDU>
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stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman) writes:

>I wonder whether someone also has run into this problem: I have a small 
>applet where I need to load images which happen not to be tiffs. Nothing 
>works - in 3.3, I just had to create an instance of Application, and its mere 
>presence fixed the problem. Under 4.2, this doesn't help. It loads TIFFs just 
>fine.
>
	Are you using NSImages to do the rendering?  The AppKit classes
assume the existance of a DPSContext to draw in which is provided by
creating an instance of NSApplication.  I had a similiar problem and
solved it with the following category to NSImage...it basically walks
through the TIFFRepresentations and returns the first one that can
provide the data (NSImageReps don't use a DPSContext for the
rendering).  A simple solution, but I knew that my images only
contatined one rep...you'd have to do a little more work to select a
specific representation.

Hope this helps....
-------------------------------NSImage.ICNoDPSContext.h------------------
// NSImage requires a DPS context in order to make a TIFFRepresentation
// Rather that create a dummy NSApplication (I just don't like that solution)
// I added a category that iterates through NSImage's NSImageRepresentations 
// and asks if they can give us a TIFF representation.  The first that can 
// is the one we return.
// -Ian P. Cardenas (icardena@uiuc.edu)

#import 

@interface NSImage (ICNoDPSContext)

-(NSData *) firstTIFFRepresentation;

@end

-------------------------------NSImage.ICNoDPSContext.m------------------
/* NSImage.NoDPSContext.m created by icardena on Sat 10-Aug-1996 */

#import "NSImage.ICNoDPSContext.h"
#import 

@implementation NSImage (ICNoDPSContext)

-(NSData *) firstTIFFRepresentation {
  NSArray *allReps = [self representations];
  NSEnumerator *repIterator = [allReps objectEnumerator];
  NSImageRep *aRepresentation;

  while(aRepresentation = [repIterator nextObject]) {
    if ([aRepresentation respondsToSelector:@selector(TIFFRepresentation)]) { 
      return [aRepresentation performSelector:@selector(TIFFRepresentation)];
    }
  }
  return nil;
}

@end


--
                       Ian P. Cardenas (icardena@uiuc.edu)
                          CCSO Sites Technical Support
      "I am of the opinion that pizza and beer together are far superior
       to either in isolation." -James E. Quick on the Apple/NeXT merger
####################################################################
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From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Unicode] Looking for text editor
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 15:14:47 -0700
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Lines: 11
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   I'm looking for a plain text editor that understands Unicode. I am new
to the NeXT OS, is it generally considered to be Unicode or ASCII based? 
Are there tools for the NeXT environment that can edit 16-bit Unicode text
directly?

Thanks for any help.

Rob Barris
Quicksilver Software Inc.
rbarris@quicksilver.com
* Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer *
####################################################################
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Unicode] Looking for text editor
Date: 22 Apr 1997 03:41:07 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5jhc0j$4nd$1@news.digifix.com>
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On 04/21/97, Rob Barris wrote:
>   I'm looking for a plain text editor that understands Unicode. I am 
new
>to the NeXT OS, is it generally considered to be Unicode or ASCII 
based? 
>Are there tools for the NeXT environment that can edit 16-bit Unicode 
text
>directly?
>
>Thanks for any help.
>


	TextEdit.app appears to be able to load a number of different 
encodings, including Unicode.

	Although I don't have a Unicode file to try..



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: paul maddox 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:50:16 -0700
Organization: RidgeNET
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Message-ID: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>
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Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
  They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
over the competition.
  To run this great hardware, they have a superior OS on the way -- 
Rhapsody, which will bring new meaning to the word
modern and its associated buzzwords, and give some already impressive 
hardware a large performance boost.
  What Apple does not seem to have, however, is the crucial third piece 
of the computer puzzle-- applications. In order to
make their new strategy compelling to the average consumer, Apple needs 
the support of developers to make office tools,
games, and other applications that take advantage of this great hardware 
and OS. Without this support, and a large measure of
it, Apple will go nowhere.
  Enter the Developer1s Coalition, a well-researched, hard-thought 
answer to this problem, and one that should put all support
for Be and other alternatives out of the picture for good.

  Picture:
* A new organization in which the various, usually competing, Mac 
hardware vendors *all* come together to encourage and
fund development for the Mac OS-- a group composed of not just the AIM 
triad (Apple, IBM, Motorola), but also the 12 or so
cloners, both large and small.
* The stability and harmony such a group will bring the platform with 
its 3we1re all in the same boat2 message.
* The reaction of developers to an organization with this breadth and 
resource level.
* This same forum taking on many of the other platform-wide duties, such 
as evangelism and advertising-- like that PowerPC
commercial everyone is longing for...
* The tremendous boost in public confidence that will result from this 
move.

  Sound good?
  Then I need your help.
  The above organization exists only on paper. However, a group of 
enterprising people have hatched a plan to publicize the
idea, hoping to create two reactions: one, let the press and developers 
know that there is a huge cadre of 3average Joe2 Mac
users out there eager to see more programs developed for the Mac; and 
two, to get the different hardware vendors to either
form such a group, or start contributing to an Apple-led effort to 
provide these benefits.
  This plan entails a massive e-mail campaign targeting all the Mac 
hardware vendors with cc's to all the Mac software
developers. Address lists for these will be posted on the eve of the 
campaign. Following is the form letter. Pleae help us out by
sending it to the provided mailing lists on or between the dates of 
*Sunday, April 20th* and *Saturday, April 27*.
  Thank you.

* DC Home:   http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/2633/dc.html
* Complete Mac   http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/dev.htm
* MacMarines   http://www.macmarines.com/dcnews/dcnews.html

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From: stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: D'OLE problems
Date: 22 Apr 97 07:36:41 GMT
Organization: Lysis S.A.
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <335c6a89.0@news.planet.ch>
References: <335B7CF1.BCAEB16D@iphysiol.unil.ch>
Reply-To: stephane@lysis.ch
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Cc: shill@iphysiol.unil.ch

In <335B7CF1.BCAEB16D@iphysiol.unil.ch> Sean Hill wrote:
> I'm trying to use D'OLE (Doh!) and I do something very simple, i.e:
> 
>    id  olebridge;
>     id  matlabApp;
> 
>     olebridge = (id )[[NSConnection
>     rootProxyForConnectionWithRegisteredName:@"NEXTORB.NSDO" host:@"*"]
>     retain];
> 
>     if (!olebridge) {
>                 NSLog (@"Did not get connected...");
>                 return 0;
>     } else {
>         NSLog (@"Connected to NEXTORB");
>         [olebridge setProtocolForProxy:@protocol(NEXTORB)];
>     }
> 
>     matlabApp = [[olebridge
>             objectWithRegisteredName:@"Matlab.Application"
>             protocol:@"OLE" host:nil] retain];
> 
> And it connects fine to the ORB starts Matlab and crashes with the
> following output.  I've tried with other OLE registered apps and it
> crashes in the same manner.  Anybody have any ideas!?  BTW This is on
> 4.2pr1.
> 
> Thanks!
> Sean
> shill@iphysiol.unil.ch
> 
> Apr 21 16:35:36 MyApp[186] Connected to NEXTORB
> Apr 21 16:35:47 MyApp[186] *** Uncaught exception:
>  deserializeObjectAt: class
> "NSDistantIDispatchProxy" not loaded
> stack: 0x3203fa36 0x3203feb2 0x310119bd 0x31011a8f 0x3203fb04 0x3202db87
> 0x3202ebf5 0x32040100 0x310177b7 0x40121c 0x77f1afc1
> exiting!
> 
> 

Extract from NeXTanswer 2501:

Reference: 68449

Releases: OPENSTEP 4.0, 4.1, 4.2

Platforms: Windows

Disposition: None

Problem: Cannot get a proxy for a distributed OLE object using OPENSTEP D.O.

Description: When trying to get a proxy for an OLE object, you may get the 
following error: "deserializeObjectAt: class `NSDistantIDispatchProxy' not 
loaded".

Workaround: Include nxorb.m (from NextDeveloper/Libraries) in your client. 
Although the D'OLE Developer's Guide states that nxorb.m is only needed for 
use with NXConnections, it's needed in some circumstances for NSConnections 
as well.

Workaround: None

Hope this helps.

Stphane

--

"L'ordinateur n'a pas l'intelligence qu'on lui prete, mais celle qu'on lui 
donne."

Stephane Corthesy
Lysis S.A.
Rue des Cotes de Montbenon 8
CH-1003 Lausanne
Switzerland
Tel. +41.21.312.91.91          Fax +41.21.312.93.43
E-mail: stephane@lysis.ch (NeXTMail welcome)

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From: stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: using Windows DLLs with OpenStep/NT
Date: 22 Apr 97 07:38:19 GMT
Organization: Lysis S.A.
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <335c6aeb.0@news.planet.ch>
References: <335B5750.E03DAC9C@iphysiol.unil.ch>
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Cc: shill@iphysiol.unil.ch

In <335B5750.E03DAC9C@iphysiol.unil.ch> Sean Hill wrote:
> Does anyone know how to link an OpenStep/NT (4.1 or 4.2pr1) project so
> that it can use functions in a regular Windows DLL?
> 
> I've tried adding it as a library or framework but that doesn't work.
> I've tried linking it by hand.  Perhaps I have a fundamental
> misunderstanding of what to do.
> 
> Thanks very much!
> shill@iphysiol.unil.ch
> 
> 

Hi Sean,

I think you need to do the link with a .LIB file, not a .DLL. You can make a 
static library from the .DLL with some utility programs (IMPLIB.EXE in 
Borland C++ distribution files), and then link your Project with that static 
library. This library contains code which will link dynamically to the .DLL 
during runtime.
I didn't test it yet :-)

Stphane

--

"L'ordinateur n'a pas l'intelligence qu'on lui prete, mais celle qu'on lui 
donne."

Stephane Corthesy						Lysis S.A.
										Rue des Cotes de Montbenon 8
E-mail: stephane@lysis.ch 					CH-1003 Lausanne
(NeXTMail welcome)						Switzerland
Tel. +41.21.312.91.91          					Fax +41.21.312.93.43

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From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Unicode] Looking for text editor
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:05:02 -0700
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
References:  <5jhc0j$4nd$1@news.digifix.com>
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In article <5jhc0j$4nd$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:

> On 04/21/97, Rob Barris wrote:
> >   I'm looking for a plain text editor that understands Unicode. I am 
> new
> >to the NeXT OS, is it generally considered to be Unicode or ASCII 
> based? 
> >Are there tools for the NeXT environment that can edit 16-bit Unicode 
> text
> >directly?
> >
> >Thanks for any help.
> >
> 
>         TextEdit.app appears to be able to load a number of different 
> encodings, including Unicode.
> 
>         Although I don't have a Unicode file to try..

   I got one reply in e-mail that indicated [ paraphrased ] "The Text
object is Unicode based as of OpenStep 4.1, but there is no standard
text-entry method for other languages."  True?

   ( It could be a tad difficult to create Chinese text in Unicode if
there's no way to enter those characters :) )

Rob Barris
Quicksilver Software Inc.
rbarris@quicksilver.com
* Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer *
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From: sc@netcom.com
Subject: FS - wwdc ticket
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services 
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Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:43:06 GMT
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Sender: sc@netcom11.netcom.com
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World wide dev conference ticket for the week. $900.

SC@netcom.com

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From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Unicode] Looking for text editor
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:25:41 -0700
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
Lines: 11
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>    I got one reply in e-mail that indicated [ paraphrased ] "The Text
> object is Unicode based as of OpenStep 4.1, but there is no standard
> text-entry method for other languages."  True?

   I actually meant to say "NSString" and not Text object above. (The same
thing? Still learning...)

Rob Barris
Quicksilver Software Inc.
rbarris@quicksilver.com
* Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer *
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From: paoiuroaiue@;lkajdfalksj.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Mariah Carey car.jpg
Date: 22 Apr 1997 21:56:03 GMT
Organization: Earthlink Network, Inc.
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Check out this site that I found, it has tons of Nude Celebrity Pictures.  


http://www.sexy-stars.com




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From: cberry@cinenet.net (Craig Berry)
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Subject: Re: Warning: Michael Kagalenko post has imbedded JavaScript SPAM bomb!
Followup-To: comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.lisp,comp.lang.tcl,comp.lang.functional,comp.lang.c++,comp.lang.perl.misc,comp.lang.python,comp.lang.eiffel,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 22 Apr 1997 23:55:40 GMT
Organization: Cinenet Communications,Internet Access,Los Angeles;310-301-4500
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Michael D. Kersey (mdkersey@hal-pc.org) wrote:
: Michael Kagalenko wrote:
: > 
: Warning to Netscape users!!
: 
: The above poster, Michael Kagalenko, has inserted the following
: JavaScript code in his e-mail:
[script snipped]
: This will open windows in your browser until memory is exhausted and/or
: your system hangs.

This is annoying and rude behavior on MK's part -- but I must admit that 
I also see it as a loud "Get another newsreader!" wake-up call to 
Netscape users.  Any newsreader which allows *message content* to crash 
your machine is fundamentally and perhaps irreparably broken.  You should 
abandon it with all due speed -- the next fun little trick somebody finds 
may do far more than simply cost you a reboot.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."
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CELEBRITY spam cancelled by clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
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From: chrisp@sax.sax.de (Christoph Pfisterer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 22:10:03 +0200
Organization: private site, Dresden, Germany
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References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>
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paul maddox  wrote:

[intro - Apple needs the developers]
>  Enter the Developer1s Coalition, a well-researched, hard-thought 
>answer to this problem, and one that should put all support
>for Be and other alternatives out of the picture for good.
>
>  Picture:
>* A new organization in which the various, usually competing, Mac 
>hardware vendors *all* come together to encourage and
>fund development for the Mac OS-- a group composed of not just the AIM 
>triad (Apple, IBM, Motorola), but also the 12 or so
>cloners, both large and small.
>* The stability and harmony such a group will bring the platform with 
>its 3we1re all in the same boat2 message.
>* The reaction of developers to an organization with this breadth and 
>resource level.
>* This same forum taking on many of the other platform-wide duties, such 
>as evangelism and advertising-- like that PowerPC
>commercial everyone is longing for...
>* The tremendous boost in public confidence that will result from this 
>move.
>
>  Sound good?

Yea, real good. I wish we'd already have such an organization - we'd
finally get the PowerPC ads we've been longing for so long. What do you
guys think?

-- 
Christoph "bIQHurgh" Pfisterer   "Now the world has gone to bed,
chrisp@sax.sax.de                 Darkness won't engulf my head,
http://www.sax.de/~chrisp/        I can see by infra-red,
PGP key available                 How I hate the night." -Marvin
####################################################################
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From: Patrick Miller 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ANNOUNCE - DESIGN yourWARE
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 02:22:56 -0400
Organization: Regi$ter Online!
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <335DAABF.21E6@registerline.com>
Reply-To: support@registerline.com
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Regi$ter Online! has implemented a terrific new type of "software"
concept called, "Design-YOURware."

"Design-YOURware" is a unique programming proposal and creativity tool
for software users and software developers alike. 

Using "Design-YOURware," a software user may design his or her software
anyway desired while submitting several personal choices to a
programmer, who will in turn consider developing the user's "creation"
upon a private Work-For-Hire Contract between user and developer.

Software developers may use "Design-YOURware" as a creativity tool,
reviewing all options for creating unique programs. In particular,
software developers may especially enjoy using what we have named, "What
the @#$!?"  

This tool (What the @%$!?) is a random idea developer, spitting out
random concepts unique to the developing environment geared to jar new
ideas. All credit for this random idea developer goes to Javascript
editor Don. 

You may experience this new concept, "Design-YOURware," at
www.registerline.com

All comments, criticisms, and questions are welcome.

Thank you
Patrick Miller
-- 
REGI$TER ONLINE! http://registerline.com
Download the shareware version of AutoText TXT EXE Compiler 
http://www.demon.co.uk/hubbard
[A FREE promotion for Regi$ter Online! Shareware Authors]
####################################################################
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From: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 12:01:02 -0700
Organization: Wolfe Internet Access, L.L.C.
Lines: 41
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References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>
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In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
 wrote:

:  Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
:    They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
:  300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
:  over the competition.
:    To run this great hardware, they have a superior OS on the way -- 
:  Rhapsody, which will bring new meaning to the word
:  modern and its associated buzzwords, and give some already impressive 
:  hardware a large performance boost.
:    What Apple does not seem to have, however, is the crucial third piece 
:  of the computer puzzle-- applications. In order to
:  make their new strategy compelling to the average consumer, Apple needs 
:  the support of developers to make office tools,
:  games, and other applications that take advantage of this great hardware 
:  and OS. Without this support, and a large measure of
:  it, Apple will go nowhere.
:    Enter the Developer1s Coalition, a well-researched, hard-thought 
:  answer to this problem, and one that should put all support
:  for Be and other alternatives out of the picture for good.
:  

Someone already beat you to that idea.  Check out AIMED, the Association
of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers.  The group was formed
over a year ago, but I haven't heard much from them lately.  Their home
page is located at:

http://mcf.com/aimed/

Don

-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \ | /    Don Arbow, Partner, CTO |  don_arb@wolfenet.com
  -- EDO --  EveryDay Objects, Inc.  |     ^ delete underscore
    / | \    Seattle, WA             |   http://www.edo-inc.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
  My Prographing web page:   http://www.wolfe.net/~donarb/Dataflow.html
        "The fix is only temporary, unless it works" - Red Green
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G)
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Sender: news@ucl.ac.uk (Usenet News System)
Message-ID: <1997Apr23.132544.68046@ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 13:25:44 GMT
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In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, 
		paul maddox  writes:

|>  What Apple does not seem to have, however, is the crucial third piece 
|>of the computer puzzle-- applications. In order to
|>make their new strategy compelling to the average consumer, Apple needs 
|>the support of developers to make office tools,
|>games, and other applications that take advantage of this great hardware 
|>and OS. Without this support, and a large measure of
|>it, Apple will go nowhere.

Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a corporate
image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming strategy.

-- 
/**	Java G 
  *	Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
  *	http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
  *     You broke the light, and now... it's dark.	*/

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From: andreas@lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 23 Apr 1997 10:53:41 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I'm going to develop software for OpenStep and therefore seek some good books 
about this matter. I tried to get through DISCOVERING OPENSTEP: A DEVELOPER 
TUTORIAL, but this book is quite hard stuff and I quickly lost the overview. 
I would appreciate literature with more smaller steps, to be easily 
introduced to OpenStep-Programming. I already have DEVELOPING BUSINESS 
APPLICATIONS WITH OPENSTEP, but this one is rather a rough introduction to 
the matter and not enough detailed to really get it working. Any suggestions?
 

####################################################################
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From: nagle@netcom.com (John Nagle)
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 CURRENT #9
References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us> 
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:26:38 GMT
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don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) writes:
>In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
> wrote:
>:  Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
>:    They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
>:  300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
>:  over the competition.

     The Alpha is faster and still isn't selling.  See the Business
week article on it.

>:    To run this great hardware, they have a superior OS on the way -- 
>:  Rhapsody, which will bring new meaning to the word
>:  modern and its associated buzzwords, and give some already impressive 
>:  hardware a large performance boost.

     But it's vaporware.  Last year at this time, we had Copland,
which was also vaporware, and more compatible.

     Realistically, nothing is going to happen on the application front
until Rhapsody ships to developers.  That may or may not happen;
Ellison may succeed in his hostile takeover of Apple, the Saudi
prince may buy a controlling interest, or Apple may just screw up
again.

					John Nagle
####################################################################
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 23 Apr 1997 18:06:24 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <5jlj30$guk$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>  
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On 04/23/97, John Nagle wrote:
>     But it's vaporware.  Last year at this time, we had Copland,
>which was also vaporware, and more compatible.
>
Hardly vaporware -- it's built on the solid foundtion of OpenStep / Mach.

>     Realistically, nothing is going to happen on the application front
>until Rhapsody ships to developers.
>
Wrong.  We're porting applications at the moment (including Mesa, the 
leading spreadsheet for NEXTSTEP), and so are others.  We might even have 
stuff to show at WWDC (a bit of a tall order, but a possibility).

Best wishes,

mmalc.

Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

-- 
Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

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From: Great Opportunity
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Earn Upwards of $10000 per month
Date: 23 Apr 1997 22:59:51 GMT
Organization: Successful People R Us
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From: J.C.Highfield@lboro.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 23 Apr 1997 23:19:32 GMT
Organization: Loughborough University, UK.
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In article <5jlj30$guk$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
mmalcolm crawford   wrote:
>On 04/23/97, John Nagle wrote:
>>     Realistically, nothing is going to happen on the application front
>>until Rhapsody ships to developers.
>>
>Wrong.  We're porting applications at the moment (including Mesa, the 
>leading spreadsheet for NEXTSTEP), and so are others.  We might even have 
>stuff to show at WWDC (a bit of a tall order, but a possibility).

Um, what exactly are you porting to - OpenStep?

Regards,
        Julian.

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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Date: 24 Apr 1997 02:43:26 GMT
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John Nagle (nagle@netcom.com) wrote:
: don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) writes:
: >In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
: > wrote:
: >:  Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
: >:    They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
: >:  300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
: >:  over the competition.

:      The Alpha is faster and still isn't selling.  See the Business
: week article on it.

The Alpha doesn't run anything worth having. That Businessweek
article can be summed up with "Software sells hardware".
All that speed won't help me if it doesn't run the software
I want to run.

(Yes, it runs linux. Yes it runs a smattering of NT software.
In neither case is there a compelling reason to buy an
Alpha over some other platform. At least not compelling
enough for a lot of people to buy it.)

The Mac runs software that a lot of people like to run. Therefore,
speed matters.


--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: "m.kangas" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 00:19:54 -0400
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On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Java G wrote:

> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a corporate
> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming strategy.

Hmm, I've got two comments here... one, an improved "corporate image" in
itself is definitely NOT a bad thing. I've personally worked at a fortune
500 firm that effectively outlawed Macs because they were "such a pain in
the corporate environment". It's rubbish, of course, but it's the action
they took is what's important. Also, most of the Macs were in use IMO by
sales-types and secretaries, groups that'd be hard-pressed to fight back
at accusations of technical inferiority. (ahh, victimization)

Secondly, wrt. "dumping GameSprockets"... I don't know the low-level
details, but I'm guessing that making GameSprockets work on Mach would be
extremely non-trivial. Perhaps by not commiting to delivering
GameSprockets, they've simply allowed themselves to bring Rhapsody to
market sooner (and on a more solid shipping schedule). They can always
slip it in later. Strategically, to "compete with MS's win95 gaming
strategy" (which NOBODY, imo, gives a hoot about) would amount to
shadowboxing and Apple knows it.

--
 \7\3\d\e\k\b\8\u\o\x\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
\m\a\t\t\.\k\a\n\g\a\s\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
m\g\k\3\@\c\o\r\n\e\l\l\.\e\d\u\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 24 Apr 1997 04:24:22 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 04/23/97, Andreas Hoeschler wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm going to develop software for OpenStep and therefore seek some
>good books  about this matter. I tried to get through DISCOVERING
>OPENSTEP: A DEVELOPER  TUTORIAL, but this book is quite hard stuff
>and I quickly lost the overview.  I would appreciate literature
>with more smaller steps, to be easily  introduced to 
OpenStep-Programming.
>I already have DEVELOPING BUSINESS  APPLICATIONS WITH OPENSTEP,
>but this one is rather a rough introduction to  the matter and not
>enough detailed to really get it working. Any suggestions?
> 


	There is a list of available OpenStep books at

	http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

####################################################################
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From: nejeh@gdi.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ADVERTISE TO OVER 100 MILLION PEOPLE FOR FREE!!!
Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 20:43:48
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From: novinger@eecs.ukans.edu (Nantes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:04:26 -0600
Organization: University of Kansas Computing Services
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In article <5jlj30$guk$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
 wrote:

> On 04/23/97, John Nagle wrote:
> >     But it's vaporware.  Last year at this time, we had Copland,
> >which was also vaporware, and more compatible.
> >
> Hardly vaporware -- it's built on the solid foundtion of OpenStep / Mach.
> 
> >     Realistically, nothing is going to happen on the application front
> >until Rhapsody ships to developers.
> >
> Wrong.  We're porting applications at the moment (including Mesa, the 
> leading spreadsheet for NEXTSTEP), and so are others.  We might even have 
> stuff to show at WWDC (a bit of a tall order, but a possibility).
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> mmalc.
> 
> Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
> Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm
> 
> -- 
> Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
> Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
> Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

Guys this is all well and good to debate, but what about this Developer's
Coalition idea?  What do you think?

I think we as Mac programmers should be very interested.  Just my $.02

Nantes

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From: novinger@eecs.ukans.edu (Nantes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:23:27 -0600
Organization: University of Kansas Computing Services
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In article <1997Apr23.132544.68046@ucl.ac.uk>,
hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G) wrote:

> In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, 
>                 paul maddox  writes:
> 
> |>  What Apple does not seem to have, however, is the crucial third piece 
> |>of the computer puzzle-- applications. In order to
> |>make their new strategy compelling to the average consumer, Apple needs 
> |>the support of developers to make office tools,
> |>games, and other applications that take advantage of this great hardware 
> |>and OS. Without this support, and a large measure of
> |>it, Apple will go nowhere.
> 
> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a corporate
> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming strategy.
> 
> -- 
> /**     Java G 
>   *     Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
>   *     http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
>   *     You broke the light, and now... it's dark.      */

While i share the feelings about game Sprockets, Apple has commented that
they are not being dropped from macos, and could make it into rhapsody. 
However, they've also said that the openstep environment already has
comparable APIs.

But back to the point, let's all get this coalition rolling.  Despite all
of Apple's faults, they still make the best damn computer in the world! 
Let's help 'em by telling the world.

Check out http://www.macmarines.com/dcnews.html for Developers Coalition
news and an e-mail campaign packet.

nantes

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From: novinger@eecs.ukans.edu (Nantes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:36:27 -0600
Organization: University of Kansas Computing Services
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In article ,
don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) wrote:

> In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
>  wrote:
> 
> :  Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
> :    They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
> :  300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
> :  over the competition.
> :    To run this great hardware, they have a superior OS on the way -- 
> :  Rhapsody, which will bring new meaning to the word
> :  modern and its associated buzzwords, and give some already impressive 
> :  hardware a large performance boost.
> :    What Apple does not seem to have, however, is the crucial third piece 
> :  of the computer puzzle-- applications. In order to
> :  make their new strategy compelling to the average consumer, Apple needs 
> :  the support of developers to make office tools,
> :  games, and other applications that take advantage of this great hardware 
> :  and OS. Without this support, and a large measure of
> :  it, Apple will go nowhere.
> :    Enter the Developer1s Coalition, a well-researched, hard-thought 
> :  answer to this problem, and one that should put all support
> :  for Be and other alternatives out of the picture for good.
> :  
> 
> Someone already beat you to that idea.  Check out AIMED, the Association
> of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers.  The group was formed
> over a year ago, but I haven't heard much from them lately.  Their home
> page is located at:
> 
> http://mcf.com/aimed/
> 
> Don
> 
> -- 
 While I like to see groups like AIMED, they are not the saem thing as the
Developers Coalition.  From what I unbderstand, the DC would be an
outspoken pro-mac force.  they would not only help developers with
resources, amrketing, job recruting, but would also evangelise the Mac in
general.

The idea is that the coalition be funded by the Mac powers that be (Apple,
Motorola, UMAX, Power, APS, etc.).  They would advertise the platform as
well as the superior PowerPC processor.

Nantes

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From: Mark Cruver 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NeXTStep Opportunity
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:51:27 -0400
Organization: OBJECTGems
Lines: 33
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CC: mcruver@objectgems.com

OBJECTGems, a leader in applying Object-Oriented Technologies to solve 
problems in Business and Industry, is searching for software 
engineers.   We will consider both permanent employees as well as
independent contractors.  

Immediate openings for:

1-   NeXTStep:  Development
2-   NeXTStep:  Testing
3-   NeXTStep:  Architecture    

These are long term (6 month plus) opportunities located in Washington,
D.C. metropolitan area. The Development and Testing opportunities are
available immediately; Architecture after June '97.

We offer excellent compensation and benefits, whether independent
contractor or employee, and the opportunity to work at the leading 
edge of technology.

Visit our Web Site:http://www.objectgems.com
for further information, profile of the Company
and additional employment opportunities.

For consideration, please send your resume in text format to:

     mailto:resumes@objectgems.com

or call:

     Office: 703-917-6625
     Fax:  703-893-8283

Ask for Dennis Laibson or Mark Cruver
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 24 Apr 1997 06:43:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 04/23/97, "m.kangas" wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Java G wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a 
corporate
>> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming 
strategy.


>Secondly, wrt. "dumping GameSprockets"... I don't know the low-level
>details, but I'm guessing that making GameSprockets work on Mach
>would be extremely non-trivial. Perhaps by not commiting to
>delivering GameSprockets, they've simply allowed themselves to
>bring Rhapsody to market sooner (and on a more solid shipping
>schedule). They can always slip it in later. Strategically, to
>"compete with MS's win95 gaming strategy" (which NOBODY, imo, gives
>a hoot about) would amount to shadowboxing and Apple knows it.


	Actually, GameSprockets capabilities are being built into 
Rhapsody according to the sprockets guy..

	You'll be able to do everything you can with Sprockets from 
Rhapsody..


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: chrisp@sax.sax.de (Christoph Pfisterer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 19:55:34 +0200
Organization: private site, Dresden, Germany
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don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) wrote:

>In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
> wrote:
>
>:  Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
>:    They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
>:  300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
>:  over the competition.
>:    To run this great hardware, they have a superior OS on the way -- 
>:  Rhapsody, which will bring new meaning to the word
>:  modern and its associated buzzwords, and give some already impressive 
>:  hardware a large performance boost.
>:    What Apple does not seem to have, however, is the crucial third piece 
>:  of the computer puzzle-- applications. In order to
>:  make their new strategy compelling to the average consumer, Apple needs 
>:  the support of developers to make office tools,
>:  games, and other applications that take advantage of this great hardware 
>:  and OS. Without this support, and a large measure of
>:  it, Apple will go nowhere.
>:    Enter the Developer1s Coalition, a well-researched, hard-thought 
>:  answer to this problem, and one that should put all support
>:  for Be and other alternatives out of the picture for good.
>:  
>
>Someone already beat you to that idea.  Check out AIMED, the Association
>of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers.  The group was formed
>over a year ago, but I haven't heard much from them lately.  Their home
>page is located at:

Well, AIMED is just an association of developers and AFAIK it's not backed
up by any bigger company. The idea with this "Developers Coalition" is that
_Apple itself_ and the clone makers launch a joint effort to support
software developers, especially small, innovative start-ups and the like.
Get the picture?

-- 
Christoph "bIQHurgh" Pfisterer   "Now the world has gone to bed,
chrisp@sax.sax.de                 Darkness won't engulf my head,
http://www.sax.de/~chrisp/        I can see by infra-red,
PGP key available                 How I hate the night." -Marvin
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From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools
Subject: Re: DISCUSS: Changes to Objective C syntax by NeXT (Java)?
Date: 24 Apr 1997 19:33:19 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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For those who were concerned that Apple was going to destroy the grace and 
beauty of Nextstep/Openstep, you may find the discussion with this subject on 
comp.lang.objective-c to be worth reading.

Apple wants Objective-C to have a more C++ like syntax.



--
John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design
C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick.

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From: andylee@ucla.edu (Andy Lee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NXBrowser: How to resize column dynamically?
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 07:31:47 GMT
Organization: University of California, Los Angeles
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Hello All,

Time for a real programming question.  :-)

How do I dynamically set a  NXBrowser's visible column?  I have an
inspector panel with a 2 column NXBrowser that is sufficient half of
the time.   So I would like to make it 3 columns only when it is
needed.  I have experimented with  [NXBrowser setMaxVisibleColumns:3]
and [NXBrowser setMinColumnWidth:] without success...

Any help or suggestion is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Andy Lee
andylee@netcom.com
andylee@ucla.edu
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From: kolbjorn.aambo@ub.uio.no (Kolbjrn Aamb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 09:48:07 +0100
Organization: UBO
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In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
 wrote:

> Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
>   They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
> 300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
> over the competition.
>   To run this great hardware, they have a superior OS on the way -- 
> Rhapsody, which will bring new meaning to the word
> modern and its associated buzzwords, and give some already impressive 
> hardware a large performance boost.

:
>   Picture:
> * A new organization in which the various, usually competing, Mac 
> hardware vendors *all* come together to encourage and
> fund development for the Mac OS-- a group composed of not just the AIM 
> triad (Apple, IBM, Motorola), but also the 12 or so
> cloners, both large and small.

That Idea is allready taken by 100%Pure Java. I think Apple should rather
cooperate with 100%Pure Java and make a Operating System that are
implementing threading as well between application processes as it seems
to be able to do within Application Processes now. If the Mac in a year is
not the best Java Machine to develop on and to use I guess a lot of people
will look for something else. At least my impression of things like Java2D
is just as well as that of NextSteps Display PostScript. In a year I think
that will be obvious to more people. As many other people I am angry
because apple is playing catch-up on Java because it had all it brains
emerged in OpenDoc and or Copeland. May be Apple should hire more women
since they seems more able to have more than one thought in their head
simultaneously.
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From: gerald@kurt.in-berlin.de (Gerald Erdmann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 23 Apr 1997 21:10:05 GMT
Organization: Private NEXTSTEP site, Germany
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <5jltrd$u1l@mimi.in-berlin.de>
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In <5jkpnl$rt@merkur.lynet.de> Andreas Hoeschler wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm going to develop software for OpenStep and therefore seek some good 
books 
> about this matter. I tried to get through DISCOVERING OPENSTEP: A DEVELOPER 
> TUTORIAL, but this book is quite hard stuff and I quickly lost the 
overview. 
> I would appreciate literature with more smaller steps, to be easily 
> introduced to OpenStep-Programming. I already have DEVELOPING BUSINESS 
> APPLICATIONS WITH OPENSTEP, but this one is rather a rough introduction to 
> the matter and not enough detailed to really get it working. Any 
suggestions?

Hi Andreas!

The next release of the NEXTTOYOU magazine (http://www.nexttoyou.de) will 
cover almost all books about NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP which are available at 
this time. This issue will be available in two month.

During this time take a look at Backlin: Developing NeXTSTEP Applications, 
ISBN 0-672-30658-1.

Gerald

--

   ---------------------------------------------------------------------
  |  GERALD ERDMANN
  |     email:  gerald @ kurt.in-berlin.de     (NeXTmail welcome)
  |     voice:  +49 30  397 31 400             (Germany - Berlin)
  |     crypt:  pgp2 public key available
  |

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From: devon@onyx-tech.com (Devon Hubbard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 11:25:20 -0700
Organization: Onyx Technology, Inc.
Lines: 28
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References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>  
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In article ,
novinger@eecs.ukans.edu (Nantes) wrote:

> While I like to see groups like AIMED, they are not the saem thing as the
>Developers Coalition.  From what I unbderstand, the DC would be an
>outspoken pro-mac force.  they would not only help developers with
>resources, amrketing, job recruting, but would also evangelise the Mac in
>general.

This is exactly what AIMED was created for.  AIMED needs to grow into a
outspoken pro-Mac force with a large body of developers behind it.

>The idea is that the coalition be funded by the Mac powers that be (Apple,
>Motorola, UMAX, Power, APS, etc.).  They would advertise the platform as
>well as the superior PowerPC processor.

In order to successfully achieve aforementioned goal, it'd be pretty hard
to be out-spoken if the Mac powers we may criticize at times are paying
the bills.  This is the same reason we didn't want to be directly
sponsored by a large vendor or publication.  You can't truly remain
independent when your hand is in someone else's pocket.

Let's continue this thread on the  mailing list. 
Subscription is possible through the web site at .

Cheers,
dEVoN Hubbard
Onyx Technology, Inc.
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From: devon@onyx-tech.com (Devon Hubbard)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Thu, 24 Apr 1997 10:50:26 -0700
Organization: Onyx Technology, Inc.
Lines: 22
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In article ,
novinger@eecs.ukans.edu (Nantes) wrote:


>Guys this is all well and good to debate, but what about this Developer's
>Coalition idea?  What do you think?
>
>I think we as Mac programmers should be very interested.  Just my $.02

Well said.  Since this thread seems to be of interest to a few folks I'd
really like to suggest discussion like this continue on the
aimed-talk@aimed.org mailing list.  There you can discuss the coalition
topic with a group of people already working toward a similar goal and
discuss other topics as well in a more realtime environment (a losely used
term considering newsgroup postings aren't as timely as a mailing list).

Subscription information for AIMED mailing lists can be found on the web
site at .

Cheers,
dEVoN Hubbard
Onyx Technology, Inc.
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From: andreas@lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 25 Apr 1997 07:43:46 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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> 	There is a list of available OpenStep books at
> 
> 	http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books
> 
Most of these books are a few years old! (1991-1993)
Is this a problem or are they still valid and uptodate with
OpenStep 4.1 Mach ?

 

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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NXBrowser: How to resize column dynamically?
Date: 25 Apr 1997 11:33:45 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
Lines: 34
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Andy,

I experienced the same behavior. However, it was ok for me
to drag the NXBrowser (in Interface Builder) to the desired column size.

I'd be interested too in a dynamic solution.

>Time for a real programming question.  :-)

Absolutely true. Just state that you prefer C++ Syntax over
ObjC's and this group becomes unreadable for month ;-)

Cheers, Ivo


andylee@ucla.edu (Andy Lee) wrote:

>Hello All,
>
>Time for a real programming question.  :-)
>
>How do I dynamically set a  NXBrowser's visible column?  I have an
>inspector panel with a 2 column NXBrowser that is sufficient half of
>the time.   So I would like to make it 3 columns only when it is
>needed.  I have experimented with  [NXBrowser setMaxVisibleColumns:3]
>and [NXBrowser setMinColumnWidth:] without success...
>
>Any help or suggestion is greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Andy Lee
>andylee@netcom.com
>andylee@ucla.edu
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 25 Apr 1997 11:19:21 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <5jq3vp$4vp$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>   <5jlj30$guk$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> <5jm5e4$g54@sun-cc204.lboro.ac.uk>
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On 04/24/97, J.C.Highfield@lboro.ac.uk wrote:
>In article <5jlj30$guk$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>,
>mmalcolm crawford   wrote:
>>Wrong.  We're porting applications at the moment (including Mesa, the 
>>leading spreadsheet for NEXTSTEP), and so are others.  We might even have 
>>stuff to show at WWDC (a bit of a tall order, but a possibility).
>
>Um, what exactly are you porting to - OpenStep?
>
Yes, which should give a good basis for Rhapsody.  As soon as we have a 
copy of Rhapsody we will ensure it runs on it.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 
Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

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From: johns@efn.org (John Selhorst)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 05:37:19 -0700
Organization: himself
Lines: 19
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In article <5jlj30$guk$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
 wrote:

>On 04/23/97, John Nagle wrote:
>>     Realistically, nothing is going to happen on the application front
>>until Rhapsody ships to developers.
>>
>Wrong.  We're porting applications at the moment (including Mesa, the 
>leading spreadsheet for NEXTSTEP), and so are others.  We might even have 
>stuff to show at WWDC (a bit of a tall order, but a possibility).

This is rather interesting.  Are you porting from NextStep (sp?) to
OpenStep?  It seems that porting to the PowerPC is rather trivial, if the
tools are ready.  What hardware/software are you using to port Mesa, which
I assumed was already OpenStep compatible.

I hope Apple is actively supporting your efforts. 

Johnny
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From: andreas@lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Dynamically loading a DialogWindow from a Bundle
Date: 25 Apr 1997 14:19:22 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

in the file CreatingDynamicallyLoadableBundles.rtfd of the OnlineDocu is 
described, how I can store resources in a bundle. I first gave the pricipal 
class of the bundle a method like

	(NSString *)getAString;

and tried to call it from the main-project like it is described in the 
document mentioned above. It worked very fine and I could print the String on 
the screen.
Next I defined a Window in the nibFile of the bundle and wanted to open and 
close the window with the following methods of the principal class.

- (void)showWindow:(id)sender
{
    [myWin makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
 }

- (void)closeWindow:(id)sender
{
    [myWin close];
 }

I have made the definition 'id  myWin; '  in the headerfile of the principal 
class and connected this outlet to the window in InterfaceBuilder, but when I 
call showWindow: from the mainProject (this shall be my loadPanel-method) 
nothing happens. Why that?
Can anyone give me an example of the  loadPanel-method mentioned in the 
Document

	CreatingDynamicallyLoadableBundles.rtfd

of the Online-Docu? I do not get any further on my own. Thank you in advance!





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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Libraries and Framework with OpenStep
Date: 24 Apr 1997 17:40:10 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 31
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yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle) wrote:
> [...]
> I manage to compile my project but when i try to run it, i have this 
followinf error !!
> 
> -- Task 'PERSONNEL.app' started on 1997-04-24 15:38:08 +0200 --
> Apr 24 15:38:25 PERSONNEL[3963] *** Uncaught exception:  
 *** class error for 
> 'SwapController': class not loaded

That error typically appears if the app wasn't linked right.  Remember to do 
this with the linker:

a -L flag to point to where the library is installed
use the -ObjC flag so everything in the library gets linked
add the library to the project

The new PB should be able to help you manage all that stuff...

This is a FAQ, BTW.  Very common problem and those three things above are 
almost always the solution to the problem.  See also:

http://www.misckit.com/faq/using.html

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 25 Apr 1997 19:47:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 04/24/97, Andreas Hoeschler wrote:
>> 	There is a list of available OpenStep books at
>> 
>> 	http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books
>> 
>Most of these books are a few years old! (1991-1993)
>Is this a problem or are they still valid and uptodate with
>OpenStep 4.1 Mach ?
>


	The language based books are probably still very useful..  The 
new OpenStep specific books are both VERY good.

	The older stuff doesn't cover the current APIs, but does give 
you a good sense of the overall environment for development.

	

-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: mem@jhu.edu (Mel Martinez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 10:57:52 -0400
Organization: horse and dog
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In article <1997Apr23.132544.68046@ucl.ac.uk>,
hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G) wrote:
> 
> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a corporate
> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming strategy.
> 

According to information reported on MacInTouch (http://www.macintouch.com
and other sources, the GameSprockets team is still pretty much intact and
GS is still alive at least on MacOS 7/8 & Rhapsody Blue Box for the next
few years.  The only unknown is whether they will port GS to Rhapsody
Yellow Box - the comment on this from one of the team members was
essentially that even _they_ don't know if that is worth doing or not.  If
it seems viable and worthwhile (developer demand and no worthy alternative)
then they will probably be steered towards doing so.  Otherwise not.

I am beginning to believe this is the case with several of the Apple
Technologies that have been supposedly 'dropped'.  Most are actually simply
going into maintenance mode.  While this is aggravating in several
particular instances and seems to pull the rug on many developers (okay, it
IS pulling the rug on many OpenDoc developers) it does allow Apple to keep
their promises to a minimum and hopefully ensure a quicker native delivery
of Rhapsody.  Later, Apple could pull a change a heart on any one or more
of these items as circumstances dictate.

I just hope they do a full and robust implementation of AppleScript that
allows strong communication between the Yellow and Blue boxes.

But we are off-topic.  A strong pro-mac/rhapsodyOS developer coalition
would certainly not be a bad thing, but the devil is in the details.

Gotta go.

Mel Martinez
The Johns Hopkins University
Dept. of Physics
mem@jhu.edu
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 25 Apr 1997 21:36:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 04/25/97, Mel Martinez wrote:
>
>In article <1997Apr23.132544.68046@ucl.ac.uk>,
>hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G) wrote:
>> 
>> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a 
corporate
>> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming 
strategy.
>> 
>
>According to information reported on MacInTouch 
(http://www.macintouch.com
>and other sources, the GameSprockets team is still pretty much
>intact and GS is still alive at least on MacOS 7/8 & Rhapsody Blue
>Box for the next few years.  The only unknown is whether they will
>port GS to Rhapsody Yellow Box - the comment on this from one of
>the team members was essentially that even _they_ don't know if
>that is worth doing or not.


	This is pretty much right from the sprockets-mouth

	While Game Sprockets on its own isn't necessarily an easy 
sell, the capabilities it offers are coming to Rhapsody...

	When it comes right down to it, thats what is important.

From http://www.stepwise.com

Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997
From: Chris De Salvo
To: mac-games-dev@solutions.apple.com
Subject: The state of Sprockets

I don't know where the rumors start about the fate/state of Sprockets, 
but let me set the record straight...

Nothing is dying, nothing is being cut, nothing is being omitted. 
Period.

All of the Sprockets will continue to exist in the Mac OS world. Mac 
OS will continue to exist for at LEAST another two years, probably 
more.

As far as Rhapsody goes, there is no guarantee that the Sprockets API 
set will be present. However, ALL of the FUNCTIONALITY will be 
present, it just might be part of a different API. For instance, the 
new OpenStep NSDirectScreen class provides all of the context and CLUT 
operations that DrawSprocket provides. It will soon provide the 
double-buffering functionality we need as well.


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: Alessandro Sforza 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NextStep Developer 3.x
Date: Sat, 26 Apr 1997 01:23:57 +0200
Organization: MC-link The World On Line
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Just a question: is NeXTStep Developer 3.3 POSIXcompliant ?
If not, which is the version number I should buy to have all the POSIX
stuff ?

Incidentally, I use NS 3.3 for Intel.

Thanks.

Mario.

P.S.
Please, reply to mc6983@mclink.it

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From: Jonathan Hendry 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:13:14 -0700
Organization: CTS Network Services
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> 
> On 04/25/97, Mel Martinez wrote:
> >
> >In article <1997Apr23.132544.68046@ucl.ac.uk>,
> >hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G) wrote:
> >>
> >> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a
> corporate
> >> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming
> strategy.
> >>
> >
> >According to information reported on MacInTouch
> (http://www.macintouch.com
> >and other sources, the GameSprockets team is still pretty much
> >intact and GS is still alive at least on MacOS 7/8 & Rhapsody Blue
> >Box for the next few years.  The only unknown is whether they will
> >port GS to Rhapsody Yellow Box - the comment on this from one of
> >the team members was essentially that even _they_ don't know if
> >that is worth doing or not.
> 
>         This is pretty much right from the sprockets-mouth
> 
>         While Game Sprockets on its own isn't necessarily an easy
> sell, the capabilities it offers are coming to Rhapsody...
> 
>         When it comes right down to it, thats what is important.
> 

Exactly.

If all Apple did was directly port the old technologies
over, it would be as bad as Microsoft's Mac software.
Microsoft's Mac apps are Windows at the core, with only
the slightest accomodation of the Mac way of doing things.
And you can tell.

Apple has to look at the old Mac OS technologies, and figure
out how they would best be implemented in the new OS. Things
like Game Sprockets should be redesigned to take the most
advantage of the capabilities of Rhapsody. MacOS didn't
have Mach messages, or distributed objects, or a dynamic
OOP language as the preferred implementation language. 
Rhapsody does, and Apple should rearchitect their 
technologies to take advantage of them.

- Jon
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From: "Margaret" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NeXTSTEP Consultants NEEDED
Date: 26 Apr 1997 17:38:14 GMT
Organization: OnRamp Technologies, Inc.; ISP
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NeXTSTEP MENTORS AND DEVELOPERS

Object Systems Group is a OO technology-based consultancy that provides
assistance to Global 1000 corporations. These clients have already made the
commitment to move to objects. That means that we can offer you the
opportunity to build robust infrastructures, develop good designs, and
direct state of the art implementations for large scale OO projects.

Our Chief Technical Officer is Bruce Webster who has been involved
in software engineering for 20 years and in commercial Object
Oriented Development since 1989.  Bruce has written numerous articles
in technical publications and has also contributed to more than a
dozen commerical software products.  His most recent books are The
Art of Ware and The Pitfalls of Object-Oriented Development.

Because OSG has a proven successful OO process and a reputation for
excellence, we can keep you progressing in OO technology while you are
making contractors wages.  OSG pays well, offers good benefits, and
requires a minimum one year commitment.  Please visit our Web Site at
http://www.osgcorp.com

PROCESS MENTORS
Minimum five years total experience with one year NeXTStep or
OpenStep. You will participate in the development of Object Models
and will perform all the analysis and design functions for your
team as well as educate team members in process, methods, and
techniques.

TECHNICAL MENTORS
Minimum three years experience in NeXTSTEP with at least one of those in a
Mentoring role.  Also must have strong knowledge or experience with one or
more OO Methodologies.

NeXTSTEP and or OpenStep Developers
If you have a minimum of 2 years experience in a NeXTSTEP environment at
any level, we want to talk to you. The project is a new development (no
legacy issues).

All work must be done on-site. 

Email resume(No NeXTMAIL accepted) and current salary info in Word,
TEXT, or ASCII to: margaret@osgcorp.com




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From: maharaj@CSLAB.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU (Pradeep Bashyal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 26 Apr 1997 22:45:08 GMT
Organization: BEMIDJI STATE UNIVERSITY
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Mmultimedia evangelist for Apple Developer relainos, Tony Tamas,
concerning Game Sprockets :

GCS Cys: Tony, what is Apple looking towards to replace the
GCS Cys: Game Sprockets Developement Package?
TonyT: First of all...
TonyT: Game Sprocket development continues so we have no
TonyT: immediate need to replace Game Sprockets. As far
TonyT: as high performance bit mapped graphics for the
TonyT: yellow box in Rhapsody, there currently exists an API
TonyT: called Interceptor which allows for direct access to
TonyT: the frame buffer for high performance drawing which,
TonyT: for example, is how ID delivered Quake for
OpenStep

For full interview, check out..
http://www.devworld.apple.com:80/mkt/WWDC/chat_424transcript.html

Pradeep
maharaj@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu
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From: Mark Purdy
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: 2 Million E-Mail Addresses $35.95
Date: 26 Apr 1997 23:03:47 GMT
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <26385861508830@digifix.com>
Date: 27 Apr 1997 03:59:44 GMT
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
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 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
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 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
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news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
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 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
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news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
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news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
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 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
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news:comp.sys.next.software

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news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: Me
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: COME SEE THE HOTTEST SITES ON THE WEB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: 27 Apr 1997 12:19:54 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 20
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Apr 27  7:19:54 AM CDT 1997

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####################################################################
Date: 27 Apr 1997 12:33:50 GMT
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From: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca (Chris Lewis)
Approved: clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
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SEXROUL spam cancelled by clewis@ferret.ocunix.on.ca
Original Subject: COME SEE THE HOTTEST SITES ON THE WEB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Total spams this type to date: 1908
Total this spam type for this user to date: 1739
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From: hugues@precipice.fdn.fr (Hugues RICHARD)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Unicode] Looking for text editor
Date: 27 Apr 1997 10:05:03 GMT
Organization: Individual - France
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <5jv8cf$lv2@precipice.fdn.fr>
References:  <5jhc0j$4nd$1@news.digifix.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: precipice.fdn.fr
X-No-Archive: yes
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.81)

rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris) wrote:
>
>   I got one reply in e-mail that indicated [ paraphrased ] "The Text
>object is Unicode based as of OpenStep 4.1, but there is no standard
>text-entry method for other languages."  True?
>
>   ( It could be a tad difficult to create Chinese text in Unicode if
>there's no way to enter those characters :) )

There's one standard text-entry method : for Japanese (but you have to buy 
NS-J...).

Otherwise, you could do you own text-entry method (ala NS-J input manager) by 
using NSText notifications :

- (void)textDidBeginEditing:(NSNotification *)aNotification
- (void)textDidChange:(NSNotification *)aNotification
- (void)textDidEndEditing:(NSNotification *)aNotification

with notifications sent data being NSStrings.

Hugues.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
hugues@precipice.fdn.fr - French, English, Italian and a few JP ->OK
------------ NS3.2 ------------ NS3.0J ------------ :-) ------------
####################################################################
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From: planetary 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOF question
Date: 27 Apr 1997 20:20:15 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5k11gv$dr0@xmission.xmission.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: xmission.xmission.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970327; sun4m SunOS 5.5.1]

I want to connect an RTF text object to an attribute in an EODisplayGroup.
Ctrl-dragging a connection doesn't work. 

I know I don't have to do it programmatically, because the Movies example
application, which has an RTF text object connected to an attribute in an
EODisplayGroup,  doesn't have any custom code. 

But the Movies application doesn't contain a connection from a text object
to an EODisplayGroup--if it did, I could just select the connection in the
connections inspector.

How can I do this?

......................kris

-- 
Kristopher Magnusson                kris@xmission.com (no NeXTmail, please)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
               Contains freshness saver packet. DO NOT EAT.
####################################################################
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From: "Steve Loranz" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: BIND 4.9.5-P1 on OPENSTEP 4.x
Date: 28 Apr 1997 06:29:03 GMT
Organization: Kiwi InterNet Group, Inc.
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <01bc5395$03ddc7b0$09b429ce@fisher>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.41.180.9
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24211 comp.sys.next.software:29295 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:26515

Has anybody built BIND 4.9.5-P1 on OPENSTEP 4.x?  I running into problems
while building the named binary.  It was complaining about _inet_aton being
defined multiple times so I put -m in the ldflags to get it to use the
symbol defined in libresolv.a within the bind source tree.  Apparently,
NeXT's cc doesn't understand -m as a linker option.  I commented out the cc
line in the named makefile and replaced it with a call to ld but then I had
a number of undefined symbols.  ld should look in the standard lib and
include directories, no?  I'm including all of the object files and
libraries that the cc line had...  I'd be happy to get any insight from
people who have gotten this package to build.  

Thanks in advance.
-steve

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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSTableView and her subclasses
Date: 28 Apr 1997 10:05:44 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <5k1spo$8r0@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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Hi all,

I'm trying to do a subclass of the NSTableView class.
I believe lots of things have been changed, so i can't find
the initFrame method ...

So can someone tell me, the allocation methods that have changed ?

When i try to run my app, using this new subclass of NSTableView,
i get the followinf message :

Apr 28 12:02:18 Swap[1414] *** Assertion failure in -[MagicTableView 
rectOfColumn:], NSTableView.m:207
Apr 28 12:02:18 Swap[1414] *** Uncaught exception: 
 Invalid parameter not satisfying: (column 
>= 0) && (column < [self numberOfColumns])

Any help would be appreciated !!

Best regards,

YANNICK
-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 05 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 05 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
####################################################################
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From: Jelske.Kloppenburg@gmd.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Addressbook format?
Date: 28 Apr 1997 10:13:03 GMT
Organization: GMD, Sankt Augustin, Germany
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <5k1t7f$sm1@omega.gmd.de>
References: <5jgial$5ot$1@inet-prime.comshare.com>
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In-Reply-To: <5jgial$5ot$1@inet-prime.comshare.com>
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01

On 04/22/97, alanf@izzy.net wrote:
>greetings etherial composite mind,
>Can someone point me an example of how  a browser is populated 
by a 
>"standard"  .addresses file?  The contact:group M:M 
relationship would be 
>handled nicely by a SQL engine, but I don't think there's a 
working Public 
>Domain one. 
>
>Any help is greatly appreciated. 
>
>Regards, 
>Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net) 
>
>
If you want to program, I have made me an Application with a 
browser
for searching a name in my "Addresses" and then to call the
telefone number whith the ISDN telefone.
If you enclose the content of the .addresses file in curly 
brackets
NSString propertyList makes a NSDictionary of it!
The elements concerning the .addresses files are:

    NSString *addressbookDir;
    NSDictionary *bookContent;
===
    addressbookDir = [[[NSHomeDirectory()
                         stringByAppendingPathComponent:@"Libra
ry"]
                             stringByAppendingPathComponent:@"A
ddresses"]
                                 retain];
===
- (void)getBookNames
    (get names using NSDirectoryEnumerator)
===
    bookContent = [[[[[NSArray arrayWithObjects:@"{", 
                              [NSString 
stringWithContentsOfFile:fullPathName],
                                                @"}", nil]
                          componentsJoinedByString:@"\n"]
                      propertyList]
		  objectForKey:@"Contents"] retain];
===
Regards j.k.


-- 
  Jelske Kloppenburg, +49 2241 14-2433, 
  GMD - German National Research Center for Information Technology
                    "Don't kill the Winners!"   Dennis Tsichritzis

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: bugs in OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.1 for NT
Date: 14 Apr 1997 14:37:44 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <5itffo$2qm2@castor.cca.rockwell.com>
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Cc: jwdb@fygir.nl

In <5ilfft$ph3$1@news1.xs4all.nl> Jan-Willem de Bruijn wrote:
> 
> * pswrap does not automatically create the intermediate subdirectory
> with name of the subproject, inside the derived_src directory. I have
> to do it by hand. 
> 
     Dit it ever ?  I would like to know how to use that feature.

> 
> So far, for the rest it seems to compile OK. Although we have found
> some UNIX specific things in our code, like popen, crypt. And 'struct
> tm' from  is not the same, but these can all be worked around. 
> 
> Oh, one thing: maybe somebody has a pointer to a yacc/lex replacement
> for Windows NT, that can be called from within the Makefiles? 
> 
     MKS LEX/YACC are good products.

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From: josh hoge 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: HELP!  C++ problems/questions NS3.2
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 1997 20:02:15 -0400
Organization: The University of Georgia
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <3352C587.18C3@coe.uga.edu>
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Hi. I have a simple question concerning programming in C++ in NS3.2: 
Are there any C++ header libraries (i.e.= iostream.h) in NS 3.2?  If
not, how do I go about getting/installing them?  Any information/help
would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

--Josh
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From: *NOSPAM~jbk~@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kane)
Subject: Re: Seek work on when OS 4.2 will be released. New features
Sender: news@world.std.com (Mr Usenet Himself)
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Any idea on a projected release date (i.e. are they doing final candidates yet)?
We've been putting off ordering waiting for the new release (our supplier
didn't even reorder, as they were waiting for 4.2 and didn't want 4.1 excess
in stock).

               Jeffrey
####################################################################
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From: sc@netcom.com
Subject: FS: World wide dev conference ticket
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 17:59:46 GMT
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Apple World wide Dev conference ticket for the week. $900.

SC@netcom.com


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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 28 Apr 1997 17:24:05 GMT
Organization: mother.com Internet Services
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <01bc53e8$066f8060$042168cf@test1>
References: <5jkpnl$rt@merkur.lynet.de> <5jmn9m$2j5$1@news.digifix.com> <5jpnbi$e5@merkur.lynet.de>
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1155

> > 	http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books
> > 
> Most of these books are a few years old! (1991-1993)
> Is this a problem or are they still valid and uptodate with
> OpenStep 4.1 Mach ?

I think it is a problem, especially as Apple tries to move developers to
its next generation OS.  Conceptually many of the ideas are the same, and
many programmers will do fine with a NEXTSTEP book and an OpenStep API
document.  However, many [most?] will have problems.

Last November I asked Simson Garfinkel about a new OpenStep book and
received the following reply.  I also spoke to him at a workshop, and he
was down about NeXT's future.

> On the record, I plan to rewrite my
> NeXTSTEP book into OpenSTEP. However, I plan to wait for a stable version
> of OpenStep to ship. I do not know if the book will ever be written.

Since the Apple purchase of NeXT changed the equation, I thought I would
ping him to see if he changed his mind.  I received this automatic reply:

> Unfortuantely, I'm really busy right now working on a book which is
> deadlined at my publisher early this summer. Until then, I am absolutely
> not taking on any new projects.

Does anyone know what the book is?


Todd
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From: Stephen Peters 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 28 Apr 1997 13:37:36 -0700
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: blues.cygnus.com
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"L. Todd Heberlein"  writes:

[re: Simson Garfinkel]
> Since the Apple purchase of NeXT changed the equation, I thought I would
> ping him to see if he changed his mind.  I received this automatic reply:
> 
> > Unfortuantely, I'm really busy right now working on a book which is
> > deadlined at my publisher early this summer. Until then, I am absolutely
> > not taking on any new projects.
> 
> Does anyone know what the book is?

His `Web Security and Commerce' is due out real soon now from
O'Reilly, but I doubt that that's the book he's talking about.

-- 
Stephen L. Peters                                   speters@cygnus.com
      PGP fingerprint: BFA4 D0CF 8925 08AE  0CA5 CCDD 343D 6AC6
	"What, do you think soup is a biped?" -- Crow, MST3K
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From: eike@cs.tu-berlin.de (Eike Dierks)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: kaffe-0.8.4-m68k-nextstep3.patch
Date: 29 Apr 1997 05:20:28 GMT
Organization: Technical University of Berlin, Germany
Lines: 43
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This is a patch for kaffe-0.8.4 so that it runs on black NeXT HW.
By appyling this patch I was able to run javac on HelloWorldApp.java
and to run the resulting .class file --No other cases tested.

This bug may also apply to other kaffe configurations.

Maintainer: Please check if there are still more initializations missing in
thread.c:startDaemon() and related places -- looks like ...



*** kaffe-0.8.4/kaffe/kaffevm/thread.c  Fri Apr 18 09:41:55 1997
--- /Users/eike/src/kaffe-0.8.4/kaffe/kaffevm/thread.c  Tue Apr 29 06:39:02 1997
***************
*** 945,950 ****
--- 945,954 ----
        tid->priority = MAX_THREAD_PRIO;
        TCTX(tid)->priority = (uint8)tid->priority;
        tid->next = 0;
+ 
+       TCTX(tid)->nextalarm = 0;       /* eike@ilink.de, 970429 */
+       TCTX(tid)->blockqueue = 0;      /* eike@ilink.de, 970429 */
+ 
        TCTX(tid)->status = THREAD_SUSPENDED;
        TCTX(tid)->nextlive = liveThreads;
        liveThreads = tid;
***************
*** 1009,1015 ****
  {
        ctx *ct;
  
!       ct = checked_malloc(sizeof(ctx) + stackSize);
        ct->stackBase = (uint8*)(ct + 1);
        ct->stackEnd = ct->stackBase + stackSize;
        ct->restorePoint = ct->stackEnd;
--- 1013,1019 ----
  {
        ctx *ct;
  
!       ct = checked_calloc(sizeof(ctx) + stackSize, 1);        /* eike@ilink.de, 970429 */
        ct->stackBase = (uint8*)(ct + 1);
        ct->stackEnd = ct->stackBase + stackSize;
        ct->restorePoint = ct->stackEnd;
####################################################################
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Seek work on when OS 4.2 will be released. New features
Date: 28 Apr 1997 22:09:51 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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References: <5jchf3$24q@slip.net> <5jel4k$3ve@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU> <*NOSPAM~jbk~-ya02408000R2804971108070001@news.std.com>
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*NOSPAM~jbk~@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kane) wrote:
> 
> Any idea on a projected release date (i.e. are they doing final
> candidates yet)?  We've been putting off ordering waiting for
> the new release (our supplier didn't even reorder, as they were
> waiting for 4.2 and didn't want 4.1 excess in stock).

Current guess is "May/June" timeframe.  Probably shortly after
the WWDC.  This guess is on my part, and not based on any
insider info...

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: yannick buisson (universit de La Rochelle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: return and nextKeyView
Date: 29 Apr 1997 10:18:02 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
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Hi all,

Just a little question about nextKeyView.
When 2 fields are linked with the nextKeyView attribute
you can go from one to another by pressing the tab key.

How can i do if i want to do the same thing with the return key ??
(like the nextText in NextStep)

thanks for your help

YANNICK
-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 05 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 05 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Books about OpenStep-Programming
Date: 29 Apr 1997 11:18:16 GMT
Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center
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"L. Todd Heberlein"  wrote:
> Last November I asked Simson Garfinkel about a new OpenStep book and
> received the following reply.  I also spoke to him at a workshop, and he
> was down about NeXT's future.
[...]
> > Unfortuantely, I'm really busy right now working on a book which is
> > deadlined at my publisher early this summer. Until then, I am absolutely
> > not taking on any new projects.
> 
> Does anyone know what the book is?

Springer announced OPENSTEP Programming Part II for August this year. I'm not 
sure, though, if Garfinkel is still involved, or if it's just Mahoney.

                Bye
                        Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________

Uli Zappe               E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
                                (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5      WWW:    -
D-60489 Frankfurt       Fon:    +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany                 Fax:    +49 (69) 9784 0042

staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine 
_____________________________________________________________________
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From: G.C.Th.Wierda@AWT.nl (Gerben Wierda)
Subject: Re: BIND 4.9.5-P1 on OPENSTEP 4.x
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"Steve Loranz"  wrote:
>Has anybody built BIND 4.9.5-P1 on OPENSTEP 4.x?  I running into problems

There is a BIND-4.9.5 installer package which I created in directory:

	ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next/Internet

Note, that this is a binary-only package and it only replaces named, nslookup 
and such, it does not install a new libresolv.a or header files. The new 
named and nslookup do use the BIND 4.9.5 libresolv.a (if I recall correctly).

The reason is as follows:

	NeXT's resolver functions (gethostbyname() and such) are 
Netinfo-aware, but they still keep the BIND names. Which means that 
installing (and using) a libresolv.a from BIND would make Netinfo unavailable 
for programs linked with libresolv.a.

	NeXT's BIND installation is special, they have renamed all functions 
to something like _res_gethostbyname(), and the Netinfo-aware functions (like 
gethostbyname()) call these functions.

	If I had enough time, I would probably create a way to make a NeXT 
MachOS compatible libresolv.a that would give you a way to upgrade to BIND 
4.9.5 seamlessly. But I do not know what all the naming conventions for 
NeXT's adaptation of BIND are, so thus far I have kept that project on hold.

	If someone can give me a reliable mapping between BIND names (like 
gethostbyname()) and NeXT names for BIND functions (like 
_res_gethostbyname()), I'll create a complete installer package, also for 
Developer installations.

	And don't forget, NeXT's istallation is multiple-architecture (with 
several endiannesses), so it is quite a bit of work to get the stuff 
transparantly working.

	If I only had the time to do it, I would. So far, let's keep it at 
named and nslookup, that at least gives you the extra security of running 
BIND 4.9.5.

-- 
Gerben Wierda,

Stafmedewerker Adviesraad voor het Wetenschaps- en Technologiebeleid.
Staff member Advisory Council for Science and Technology Policy
Javastraat 42, 2585 AP, 's-Gravenhage, The Hague, The Netherlands
Tel (+31) 70 3639922	Fax (+31) 70 3608992
http://www.AWT.nl/

"One foolish wise man can state more
	than a thousand wise fools can question."
"Doubters need to understand believes.
	Believers need not understand doubt."
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: [NSView subviews] is evil
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@shinto.nbg.sub.org
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Date: Sun, 27 Apr 1997 18:25:29 GMT
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Hi,

I just ran into this silly problem and want to share my headache with you.
Beware...[NSView subviews] is evil because it is badly documented.

In order to remove all your subviews one usually would do:

	mySubviews = [self subviews]
	for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
		[[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];


Having done so you will realize that only some views get removed while others 
get not.

The problem here is that -subviews returns a reference to the internal 
NSArray which really holds the NSViews subviews. It does not return a copy!
While we could argue if this is good or bad...the documentation of this 
method is really evil since under OpenStep/NeXTSTEP it used to be common that 
methods which return object which are dangerous to mess around are documented 
to be that way.

This is a potential problem with OpenStep as a standard for crossplatform 
issues. So while the code shown above might work under GNUstep (which might 
return a true copy of the internal array) under NeXTs OpenStep you must do a:

	mySubviews = [self subviews]
	while( [mySubviews count]>0 )
		[[mySubviews objectAtIndex:0] removeFromSuperview];


in order to remove the subviews. But this code might not work under GNUstep.

I hope that I could save someone out there from the same head scratching I 
had to go through.
Are there more known "documentation-pitfalls" of this type ? Could someone at 
Apple please fix this for 4.2.

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Subject: Re: [NSView subviews] is evil
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Reply-To: allan@cetus.ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Cc: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org
Organization: ALI Technologies
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 15:49:15 GMT
References:  
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Lines: 52

In comp.sys.next.programmer Thomas Engel wrote:
> I just ran into this silly problem and want to share my headache with you.
> Beware...[NSView subviews] is evil because it is badly documented.
> ...
> In order to remove all your subviews one usually would do:
> 
> 	mySubviews = [self subviews]
> 	for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
> 		[[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
> ...
> Having done so you will realize that only some views get removed while 
others 
> get not. ... under NeXTs OpenStep you must do a:
> 
> 	mySubviews = [self subviews]
> 	while( [mySubviews count]>0 )
> 		[[mySubviews objectAtIndex:0] removeFromSuperview];
> 
> in order to remove the subviews. But this code might not work under 
GNUstep.

Perhaps a better version is one I frequently use when I don't know
(or can't trust) whether a copy or an original of an array is
going to be returned:

  mySubviews = [self subviews];
  for( i = [mySubviewsCount]-1; i >= 0; i-- )
  {
	[[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
  }

Since you iterate through the array backwards it won't matter if
the items are actually being removed from it while you do so.
The removed item will be "behind" you and the remaining items
will still be in their original locations in the array.

It is also more efficient to remove items from the end of an array
than the beginning, given NSArray's current implementation.

There are still some circumstances where you are forced to
make your own copy of the returned array, but these are few.

--
Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan        e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca
ALI Technologies                        Voice: 604.279.5422 x 317
Richmond, Canada                        Fax:   604.279.5468
                       * NeXT and MIME mail welcome *
		       
"A distributed system is one in which the failure of a computer you 
didn't even know existed can render your own computer unusable."
  --- Les Lamport

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From: johns@efn.org (John Selhorst)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [NSView subviews] is evil
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 09:42:57 -0700
Organization: himself
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In article , tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org
(Thomas Engel) wrote:

>Hi,
>
>I just ran into this silly problem and want to share my headache with you.
>Beware...[NSView subviews] is evil because it is badly documented.
>
>In order to remove all your subviews one usually would do:
>
>        mySubviews = [self subviews]
>        for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
>                [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
>
>
>Having done so you will realize that only some views get removed while others 
>get not.
>
>The problem here is that -subviews returns a reference to the internal 
>NSArray which really holds the NSViews subviews. It does not return a copy!
>While we could argue if this is good or bad...the documentation of this 
>method is really evil since under OpenStep/NeXTSTEP it used to be common that 
>methods which return object which are dangerous to mess around are documented 
>to be that way.
>
>This is a potential problem with OpenStep as a standard for crossplatform 
>issues. So while the code shown above might work under GNUstep (which might 
>return a true copy of the internal array) under NeXTs OpenStep you must do a:
>
>        mySubviews = [self subviews]
>        while( [mySubviews count]>0 )
>                [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:0] removeFromSuperview];
>
>
>in order to remove the subviews. But this code might not work under GNUstep.

A better workaround would be:

        mySubviews = [self subviews]
        for( i=[mySubviews count]-1; i>=0; i-- )
                [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];

This usage is more consistent with the meaning of objectAtIndex.

As for [self subviews] yielding a copy of the subviews:  That could be
just as confusing as the way it is.  Would the subviews list contain
copies of the views?  That wouldn't be very useful in this instance.

Johnny
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From: jrd@deltanet.com (John Deubert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Position Available: PostScript trainer, Acquired Knowledge, Inc.
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 10:12:48 -0700
Organization: Acquired Knowledge, Inc.
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Position Available: PostScript Trainer.

Acquired Knowledge, Inc., an award-winning training and software company
specializing in PostScript, needs a bright, energetic, motivated person
with a good technical background and excellent people skills to teach
week-long classes in PostScript programming and troubleshooting throughout
the United States.

Requirements: B.S. Computer Science or equivalent. One to two years of
professional programming experience in C or C++ required. Knowledge of
PostScript preferred but not necessary. Must like to travel. Sense of humor
recommended. We will contribute significantly to the cost of relocating to
San Diego.

This is an ideal job for a successful programmer who would like a technical
job with more people contact than a programmer position can provide.

For more information regarding this position, go to
    
    http://www.acquiredknowledge.com/HelpWanted.html

For more information regarding Acquired Knowledge, please go to

    http://www.acquiredknowledge.com

-- 
John Deubert

Acquired Knowledge, Inc.             PostScript training and software
San Diego, CA                         1-800-482-1252 / 1-619-587-4668
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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: 29 Apr 1997 18:13:42 GMT
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Sorry for the cross posting.

Apple will be giving away OPENSTEP and WebObjects development tools at this
year's World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC).  Included in the bundle are

o OPENSTEP User 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2 
o OPENSTEP Developer 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2
o OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 for Windows NT and Win95
o WebObjects Developer 3.1 Associated on-line docs
o Printed copy of 'Discovering OPENSTEP: A Developer Tutorial'

For the press release, see
http://product.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1997/q3/970429.pr.rel.wwdc.h
tml

For information on the WWDC, see
http://devworld.apple.com/mkt/WWDC/index.html

Cheers,

Todd

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From: andreas@merkur.lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Remote-Build is not working
Date: 29 Apr 1997 23:10:28 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I've a small LAN here (2 PC'S connected via Ethernet).
Working on one PC, I tried to build a Project with PB on the second
PC. Therefore I entered the name of the remote host (venus) in the
appropriate field, but the only thing I got is:

 Build failed! Couldn't connect to host venus

I can ping venus in Terminal.app. Moreover I can execute
application via OpenSesame on the remote hist.
Why is the corresponding PB-facility not working?
Any ideas?

Andreas Hoeschler

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From: andreas@merkur.lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: MultiThreadedDO-Example  -- need help
Date: 29 Apr 1997 13:20:02 GMT
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Hello,

I'm new too OpenStep-Programming and urgently need more
information (StepByStep-Introduction).
I've managed to write some simple applications using multiple
nib-files, showing some dialog-windows,... , but I hardly get any further 
now.
The Online-Docu is confusing me and I seldom find what I look for.

For example in ImplementingASubClassOfNSView.rtf they recommend to
look for DPSClientLibrary Reference for programming with PostScript,
but where is this File. I searched the whole disk in FileViewer and did not 
find it.

Second I would like to learn something about multithread-programming, but the
only thing I found about it is the MultiThreadedDO-Example withot any 
explanations.

Any hints?



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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Remote-Build is not working
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 23:31:21 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 29-Apr-97 Remote-Build
is not working by Andreas Hoeschler@merkur 
>  Build failed! Couldn't connect to host venus
>  
> I can ping venus in Terminal.app. Moreover I can execute
> application via OpenSesame on the remote hist.
> Why is the corresponding PB-facility not working?
> Any ideas?

Remote building requires the rexec daemon to be enabled; unfortunately,
rexecd is insecure, and is typically disabled many sysadmins....

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: "Kurt E. Huhner" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSConcreteArray?
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 22:47:45 -0500
Organization: NCS, Inc; http://www.ncs-ssc.com
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I am using the following line to sort what I tought was a
NSMutableArray:

            [address sortUsingFunction:SortAddress context: (void
*)sortBy];

When I faked creation (at compile time) of the receiver "address" this
line worked fine.  When I implemented Archive/Unarchive methods
and removed the compile time creation of "address", with no other
changes, the above line when executed yields:

*** -[NSConcreteArray sortUsingFunction:context:]: selector not
recognized

How did my "address" variable end up being of NSConcreteArray type?
Any suggestions?

Kurt
khuhner@communique.net

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From: jalon@drakkar.ens.fr (Julien Jalon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSConcreteArray?
Date: 30 Apr 1997 04:23:32 GMT
Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris
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The problem is not that your array is a NSConcreteArray (to know
why it is so, you can look at the concept of class cluster
in :
http://www.next.com/Pubs/Documents/OPENSTEP/ProgrammingTopics/IntroFoundation.pdf 
)
but that your array is an immutable array.
You must have a mutable array if you want to modify (here : sort) it.
you can sort [address mutableCopy] but not address
(or initialize directly address as a NSMutableArray

--Julien
-- 
Julien Jalon					| Ecole normale superieure
jalon@clipper.ens.fr				| 45 rue d'Ulm
http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/	| 75230 Paris Cedex 05
						| FRANCE
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: MultiThreadedDO-Example  -- need help
Date: 30 Apr 1997 07:46:28 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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Andreas Hoeschler writes
> The Online-Docu is confusing me and I seldom find what I look for.
> 
> For example in ImplementingASubClassOfNSView.rtf they recommend to
> look for DPSClientLibrary Reference for programming with PostScript,
> but where is this File. I searched the whole disk in FileViewer and did 
> not find it.

This is OPENSTEP 4.1 (or 4.0), right? The files you're looking for are  
supposed to be in  
/NextLibrary/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/Resources/English.lproj/Documenta 
tion/Reference/Functions
but they got omitted from the release accidentally. They're back in  
OPENSTEP 4.2, which should be out soon.  
 
> Second I would like to learn something about multithread-programming, 
> but the only thing I found about it is the MultiThreadedDO-Example 
> withot any explanations.
> 
> Any hints?

I think there's a better example on NeXTanswers somewhere, but I can't  
find it right now. The documentation for NSThread might be helpful.
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [NSView subviews] is evil
Date: 30 Apr 1997 08:12:51 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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This message ended up being a lot longer than I originally intended. Sorry  
if I lose any of you along the way...

tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote:
>The problem here is that -subviews returns a reference to the internal 
>NSArray which really holds the NSViews subviews. It does not return a 
>copy!
>While we could argue if this is good or bad...the documentation of this 
>method is really evil since under OpenStep/NeXTSTEP it used to be 
>common that methods which return object which are dangerous to mess 
>around are documented to be that way.

I can't speak for what was common under NEXTSTEP, but under OPENSTEP, you  
should always assume that if you don't want the value of a kit-supplied  
object changing out from under you, you'll need to copy it (except for  
those methods documented as returning a newly-created object).

This is "hinted at" in zillions of places in the documentation, but we  
never really come out and say it (not that I could find, anyway). For  
instance:
/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/TasksAndConcepts/ProgrammingTopics/Obje 
ctOwnership.rtf...
	...Ideally a body of code should never be concerned with releasing 
	something it didn't create. The Foundation Framework therefore sets 
	this policy: If you create an object you alone are responsible for 
	releasing it. If you didn't create the object, you don't own it and 
	shouldn't release it.

/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/Foundation.rtf...
	More on Autoreleasing and Retaining 
	The following statements are false: 
	Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid for the scope of the 
		current method. 
	Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the current 
		autorelease pool is released. 
	Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the end of the 
		current event loop. 

These are talking about objects getting released out from under you, but  
the principle is the same. 

Given the statements above, accessor methods for Foundation and Appkit  
classes could be implemented as either:

	//SAFE accessor method
	-(NSArray *)subviews
	{
		return [[_private_mutable_array copy]autorelease];
	}
or 
	//FAST accessor method
	-(NSArray *)subviews
	{
		return _private_mutable_array;
	}

In practice (i.e. NeXT's implementation), something like the second  
construct is almost always used. This is primarily an efficiency issue -  
creating lots of short-lived objects would have an adverse impact on  
performance.

However, you can't depend on the implementation being one way or the other  
if you want to make sure that your code will work with any implementation  
of OPENSTEP, present or future. 

You can really only depend on an object returned from a kit method staying  
valid through the execution of the message expression that returned it.  
After that, it might be dealloced, or modified, or replaced inline with a  
different object...

Take Thomas' original code fragment, for instance:
>In order to remove all your subviews one usually would do:
>
>        mySubviews = [self subviews]
>        for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
>                [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];

It's entirely possible that mySubviews could get released before you even  
enter the loop. Turns out that it isn't, but you'd better not depend on  
that behavior. If you can't even assume that the object still *exists*  
inside the loop, you certainly can't assume that it's unchanged in value,  
right?

The general rule is: If you don't want an object to disappear mysteriously  
on you, you have to retain it. If you don't want the contents to change,  
you need to make a deep copy of it.

So, the "always right, never fail" version of the above code looks like:
        mySubviews = [[self subviews] copy];
        for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
                [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
	[mySubViews release];

Yes, this is ugly. Do you always have to do it this way? No, you can  
usually get away with making certain assumptions about the implementation  
(like that the programmer wasn't totally insane). The "good" news is that  
the copy message is probably very fast on immutable classes, so if an  
implementation uses the "safe" method above, the extra copy is probably  
not much overhead.

It might seem more elegant to just use 
   [[self subviews] makeObjectsPerform: @selector(removeFromSuperview)]
but that isn't guaranteed to work, either - you're not allowed to perform  
a method that has the side effect of modifying the array...Of course, you  
can't possibly know that removeFromSuperView does that, except by the  
principle of "any method you call can invalidate previously returned  
values".

Here's my best attempt at a clear, correct implementation:
        mySubviews = [[self subviews] copy];
   	[mySubViews makeObjectsPerform: @selector(removeFromSuperview)]
	[mySubViews release];

Alternatively, you could use:
        mySubviews = [NSArray arrayWithArray: [self subviews]];
   	[mySubViews makeObjectsPerform: @selector(removeFromSuperview)]

Which creates an autoreleased mySubViews, which will disappear when the  
current autorelease pool gets released.

--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: Maf Vosburgh 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: 30 Apr 1997 13:16:11 GMT
Organization: MultiMedia Corporation
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In article <01bc54b8$2119dcf0$0e2168cf@test1> L. Todd Heberlein,
heberlei@NetSQ.com writes:
>Apple will be giving away OPENSTEP and WebObjects development tools at this
>year's World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC).

Yeah, but it's the PC version. 
Is this really the right time for Apple to be encouraging Mac programmers
to buy PC's? 


Maf
ppleTalk, HFS, Objective-C,
and a large suite of UNIX-style commands.

Information on the release is available on Apple's MkLinux Web site:

   www.mklinux.apple.com

In addition, an Apple-sponsored reference release is available, containing
extensive reference material on Linux, Mach, NeXT, and the Power Macintosh:

   MkLinux: Microkernel Linux for the Power Macintosh
   Rich Morin, Editor
   Prime Time Freeware, 1997
   ISBN 1-881957-24-1; $50

Visit www.ptf.com or send email to info@ptf.com for more information.

-r
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From: peiliw@ross.ncmi-gsl.com (Peili Wang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Seek work on when OS 4.2 will be released. New features
Date: 30 Apr 1997 13:29:51 GMT
Organization: NationBanc Capital Markets,Inc.(NY)
Lines: 25
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In article <5k377f$3mq@usenet.rpi.edu> Garance A Drosehn  
 writes:
> *NOSPAM~jbk~@world.std.com (Jeffrey Kane) wrote:
> > 
> > Any idea on a projected release date (i.e. are they doing final
> > candidates yet)?  We've been putting off ordering waiting for
> > the new release (our supplier didn't even reorder, as they were
> > waiting for 4.2 and didn't want 4.1 excess in stock).
> 
> Current guess is "May/June" timeframe.  Probably shortly after
> the WWDC.  This guess is on my part, and not based on any
> insider info...
> 
> ---
> Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
> Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
> Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA


Here is info from NeXT on the availability of OPENSTEP Enterprise  and  
OPENSTEP for MACH 4.2 

FCS OSE 4.2 for NT : End of April

FCS OPENSTEP 4.2 for Mach User and Developer: End of May
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From: andreas@merkur.lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: What's [NSString stringWithCharacters:...] doing?
Date: 30 Apr 1997 13:21:17 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I'm a little new to Objective-C and can't unserstand the following method of 
an example in the documentation.

- (NSString *)rotateLettersInString:(NSString *)aString
{

    NSString *newString;
    unsigned length;
    unichar *buf;
    unsigned i;


    length = [aString length];
    buf = malloc( (length + 1) * sizeof(unichar) );
    [aString getCharacters:buf];
    buf[length] = (unichar)0;  // not really needed....



    for (i = 0; i < length; i++) {
        if (buf[i] >= (unichar)'a' && buf[i] <= (unichar) 'z') {
            buf[i] += 13;
            if (buf[i] > 'z') buf[i] -= 26;
        }

         else if (buf[i] >= (unichar)'A' && 

			buf[i] <= (unichar) 'Z') {
            buf[i] += 13;
            if (buf[i] > 'Z') buf[i] -= 26;
        }
    }



    newString = [NSString stringWithCharacters:buf length:length];
    free(buf);



    return newString;
}

The problem is the construction of newString. What's stringWithCharacters 
doing and when is newString deallocated? The procedure I know is the pair

	newString = [[Class alloc] init];
	...
	[newString release];

Thank you in advance!

Andreas Hoeschler

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 11:39:41 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5k7gmr$hqc@argon.btinternet.com>, Maf Vosburgh
 wrote:

> Is this really the right time for Apple to be encouraging Mac programmers
> to buy PC's? 

  It's exactly the right time.

Maury
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From: abridge@wheel.dcn.davis.ca.us (Adam Bridge)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 08:15:11 -0700
Organization: Bridge Family
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In article <5k7gmr$hqc@argon.btinternet.com>, Maf Vosburgh
 wrote:

>In article <01bc54b8$2119dcf0$0e2168cf@test1> L. Todd Heberlein,
>heberlei@NetSQ.com writes:
>>Apple will be giving away OPENSTEP and WebObjects development tools at this
>>year's World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC).
>
>Yeah, but it's the PC version. 
>Is this really the right time for Apple to be encouraging Mac programmers
>to buy PC's? 
>
>
>Maf

It's what we've been CRYING for Maf.  Most of us want the OPENSTEP
experience but find the zillion bucks to acquire it a bit out of our
league.  This gives us TWO platforms rightaway to work with plus, when
Rhapsody is released we can check cross-platform immediately.

Apple is giving out a currently deployed technology!  They are doing what
their current developers need them to do in order to get a product to
market quickly!  Rhapsody products should be designed for both worlds --
to encourage cross-platform development -- maybe more people will look at
Apple solutions and look away from Micro$oft.

-- 
Adam Bridge
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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: 30 Apr 1997 10:10:06 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
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In article <5k7gmr$hqc@argon.btinternet.com> Maf Vosburgh   
writes:
> In article <01bc54b8$2119dcf0$0e2168cf@test1> L. Todd Heberlein,
> heberlei@NetSQ.com writes:
> >Apple will be giving away OPENSTEP and WebObjects development tools at  
this
> >year's World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC).
> 
> Yeah, but it's the PC version. 
> Is this really the right time for Apple to be encouraging Mac programmers
> to buy PC's? 


Considering that:
	1) The PowerPC OPENSTEP products doesn't exist yet
	2) Many Mac developers are also PC developers, or have easy access
	   to a PC, or have recently purchased old NeXT hardware.
	3) Apple has OPENSTEP User and Developer for Mach, OPENSTEP
	   Enterprise for Windows NT/95, and WebObjects products ready
	   for delivery NOW.

This lets Apple give the developers something to use NOW rather than  
promises of something soon.  Tangible receivables generally have more  
impact than promises and press releases.

-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque@wco.com)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: bueckle@schelling.dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM (Martin Bckle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: DriverKit
Date: 30 Apr 1997 12:57:41 GMT
Organization: debis Network Services GmbH
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Hello, Driverkit gurus!

I'm currently working on a kernel level driver for NEXTSTEP 3.3. I use the 
UNIX-style
entry points (open, close, read, write, ioctl, etc.) for communication with 
user programs.
The usage of open, close, read, write, ioctl is well documented, at least in 
the Driverkit
examples. But how to use the mmap function? Does anybody know a driver, which 
is
available in source code and uses the mmap function?

Any help will be appreciated.

Sincerely,

  Martin Bueckle

============================================
Martin Bueckle, Daimler-Benz AG, Research Center Ulm
Institute of Information Technology
Department of Pattern Recognition/Text Understanding
P.O. Box 2360, 89013 Ulm, Germany

Phone: +49 731 505 2399
Fax:   +49 731 505 4113
Email: bueckle@dbag.ulm.daimlerbenz.com
============================================

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From: Shapiro@AOL.com (Eric Shapiro)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Apple Dev Conference -- when where howe much
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 13:10:01 -0400
Organization: Relium Corp.
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In article <5jdqvt$9gu@news.cc.oberlin.edu>, cjs@occs.cs.oberlin.edu
(Miles Standish) wrote:

> I'd like to attend the upcoming Apple Developer's conference, when is it
> 
> where is it
> 
> how much is it
> 
> discounts for stduents?
 
May 13-16th
San Jose Convention Center
$995
No
 
See: 
 
There is an internet simulcast for about 20 hours worth of
sessions for $100. The web page has more info on this.

 -Eric

-- 
Eric Shapiro
Relium Corp.
shapiro@aol.com
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From: mcgredo@crl.com (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: 30 Apr 1997 12:48:51 -0700
Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics
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>> >Apple will be giving away OPENSTEP and WebObjects development tools at  
>this
>> >year's World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC).

Anyone know if java will be included in the 4.2 release? It might
be worth heading up there for a day if so, otherwise I'll probably
skip it.

-- 
Don McGregor    | Whenever anyone says, "theoretically", they really mean, 
mcgredo@crl.com | "not really". 
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: What's [NSString stringWithCharacters:...] doing?
Date: 30 Apr 1997 20:58:53 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 22
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Andreas Hoeschler writes
> Hello,
> 
> I'm a little new to Objective-C and can't unserstand the following 
> method of an example in the documentation.
> 
>     newString = [NSString stringWithCharacters:buf length:length];
> The problem is the construction of newString. What's 
> stringWithCharacters doing and when is newString deallocated?

The method [NSString stringWithCharacters: length:] produces an  
autoreleased NSString object, which will get deallocated when the current  
autorelease pool is released (typically, at the end of the current event  
cycle).

Almost every OPENSTEP method that returns an object returns an  
autoreleased object. If you want the object to stay around, you need to  
retain it, then release it when you're done with it.
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: mike@home.telepool.com (Mike Selner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ATX power off program wanted
Date: 30 Apr 1997 20:58:31 GMT
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I would like to write a program to "power" off my ATX (NS 3.3) system.
Does anyone have specs on this or know a way to do it?

Thanks!

Mike Selner
Mike@tela.com
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [NSView subviews] is evil
Date: 30 Apr 1997 21:15:18 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Lines: 92
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MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) wrote:
> This message ended up being a lot longer than I originally intended. Sorry  
> if I lose any of you along the way...

My messaage is also quite long. Sorry, but I had some important things to say and to ask.


> tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote:
> >The problem here is that -subviews returns a reference to the internal 
> >NSArray which really holds the NSViews subviews. It does not return a 
> >copy!
> >While we could argue if this is good or bad...the documentation of this 
> >method is really evil since under OpenStep/NeXTSTEP it used to be 
> >common that methods which return object which are dangerous to mess 
> >around are documented to be that way.
> 
> I can't speak for what was common under NEXTSTEP, but under OPENSTEP, you  
> should always assume that if you don't want the value of a kit-supplied  
> object changing out from under you, you'll need to copy it (except for  
> those methods documented as returning a newly-created object).
> 
[big snip]
> The general rule is: If you don't want an object to disappear mysteriously  
> on you, you have to retain it. If you don't want the contents to change,  
> you need to make a deep copy of it.
> 
> So, the "always right, never fail" version of the above code looks like:
>         mySubviews = [[self subviews] copy];
>         for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
>                 [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
> 	[mySubViews release];


Isn't that a "shallow" copy rather than a "deep"? If it was "deep" then the views would be copied as well and the entire 
peice of code would be rather pointless.

I do agree with the original poster that there is some rigor lacking in policies about the Foundation and AppKit 
frameworks. Yes, we can always work around them by writing ultra-paranoid code, but that slows down both our programs and 
our progress. In practice I doubt that everyone writes every method such that the principe of:

> "any method you call can invalidate previously returned values".

cannot affect them.


Going back and forth from NT and Mach doesn't seem to be too bad (although there are plenty of pitfalls) because the ObjC 
source is mostly the same. However, there are lots of subtle issues and seemingly arbitrary bug fixes. Often I discover 
that the behavior of a method is more complex that what the docs say. A large program is going to depend on many of these 
complexities--you can't avoid it because it will just happen.

The bottom line is that under the current scheme I seriously doubt that you will ever take a large project from Apple's 
domain to GNUstep or Sun and get it working quickly. You will be bogged down is subtle differences between API 
implementation and behavior.

Hell I even had that going from Mach to Windows. Most of my app's windows wouldn't update under NT rendering the app 
useless! You can't click on the right browser cell if it's not there!

The problem was that under Windows an -update message is not always sent to the windows after an event is handled. Under 
Mach it is. I use this mechanism for keeping the display correct, but it's broken under Windows. As far as I can tell, I 
should be able to use that mechanism according to the docs. In fact, I thought that was the whole point of it. My fix, 
which was quite ugly, was to post a dummy event whenever an object gets modified (all my objects say [self changed] when 
appropriate), which is less efficient, but at least now my program is usable! Of course, I have it #ifdef WIN32 #endif. I 
have quite a few of those, in fact...

That problem took several hours to nail down and then to fix. And that's going from one vendor's Mach OPENSTEP to the 
*same* vendor's NT OPENSTEP. What would happen if I went to Sun's OPENSTEP or GNUstep? I dare not imagine...

Getting back to biz, I do the following, as Mark suggests, whenever I know that the data structure is going to be 
modified.

> Here's my best attempt at a clear, correct implementation:
>         mySubviews = [[self subviews] copy];
>    	[mySubViews makeObjectsPerform: @selector(removeFromSuperview)]
> 	[mySubViews release];

BTW Mark, I think the reason that OPENSTEP/NT doesn't always send -update immediately after the event is that when the 
current event is basically finished, the app sometimes sits inside of NSApp-sendEvent: polling for the next one (I got 
this idea by breaking in gdb in showing the stack). This doesn't always happen. Just often enough to be a problem.

It might be related to modal sessions and/or pop up menus. Because the app was waiting in NSApp-sendEvent: I couldn't even 
override it to fix it by doing my own [NSApp updateWindows] which I'm sure is already in the NT code anyway.

This should be fixed by someone, as it decreases the portability of OPENSTEP code and makes a very nice mechanism very 
crippled in NT. Do you recommend that I fill out a bug_next report, or will you take it, or forward it, from here?

Thanks,

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: andreas@merkur.lynet.de (Andreas Hoeschler)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Programmitically create a NSTextView - does not work
Date: 30 Apr 1997 22:46:50 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I'm just studying the file TextOverview.rtfd of the 
FoundationFrameworkDocumentation.
Therein is described how to programmatically create a NSTextView and set it 
as the new contents of a NSWindow.
I dragged a new Window from the Palette to my nibFile, connected the outlet 
aWindow of my MainController-Class to this window and put the following code 
in an action-method of the controller-class.

- (void)createMyTextView:(id)sender
{
    NSRect contentRect;

    contentRect = [[aWindow contentView] frame];

    theTextView = [[NSTextView alloc] initWithFrame:NSMakeRect(0, 0, 
contentRect.size.width, 	contentRect.size.height)];

    [aWindow SetContentView:theTextView];
    [aWindow makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
    [aWindow makeFirstResponder:theTextView];
}

But, when I press the button, wich is connected to this action-method, 
nothing happens (no window is displayed). When I modify this method to the 
following, the Window is displayed, but the root-view was obviously not 
replaced, because a test-button, previously added to this window in 
InterfaceBuilder is still visible.

- (void)createMyTextView:(id)sender
{
    NSRect contentRect;

    contentRect = [[aWindow contentView] frame];

    theTextView = [[NSTextView alloc] initWithFrame:NSMakeRect(0, 0, 
contentRect.size.width, 	contentRect.size.height)];

    [aWindow makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
    [aWindow SetContentView:theTextView];
    [aWindow makeFirstResponder:theTextView];
}

Is this a bug, or did I do something wrong? Thanks for help in advance.

Andreas Hoeschler

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From: hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G)
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Sender: news@ucl.ac.uk (Usenet News System)
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In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, 
		paul maddox  writes:

|>  What Apple does not seem to have, however, is the crucial third piece 
|>of the computer puzzle-- applications. In order to
|>make their new strategy compelling to the average consumer, Apple needs 
|>the support of developers to make office tools,
|>games, and other applications that take advantage of this great hardware 
|>and OS. Without this support, and a large measure of
|>it, Apple will go nowhere.

Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a corporate
image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming strategy.

-- 
/**	Java G 
  *	Virtual Reality ROV Docking Planner
  *	http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~zcemm23
  *     You broke the light, and now... it's dark.	*/

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From: ctm@ardi.com (Clifford T. Matthews)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 30 Apr 1997 19:58:53 -0600
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>>>>> "Maury" == Maury Markowitz  writes:

 Maury> In article <5k7gmr$hqc@argon.btinternet.com>, Maf Vosburgh
 Maury>  wrote:

 >> Is this really the right time for Apple to be encouraging Mac
 >> programmers to buy PC's?

 Maury>   It's exactly the right time.

Only because we don't have time travel.  Exactly the right time was
when Apple switched from Motoroloa 680x0 based systems to a new
processor.  They could have switched to PPC *and* 80x86 at the same
time for only slightly more development cost and then headed off some
of the defection to Windows 95.  But, assuming it's impossible to go
backward in time, now is indeed the right time.

 Maury> Maury

--Cliff
ctm@ardi.com
http://www.ardi.com/
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From: Rich@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: All writers seeking publication
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 1997 22:59:28
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Now*accepting  and  writers for publication. 
We are a NEW=YORK based international literary agency with three 
offices: 2 in NEW=YORK and one in 

For ALL fiction, including screenplays for TV & Movies: Send us a ,
the  first chapter, and include a self-addressed, stamped envelope=S.A.S.E.
Short Stories: Send brief synopsis, 3 pages, S.A.S.E.
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Do not send complete manuscript unless invited.




<(Tel)=={718}=651=8145>


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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: What's [NSString stringWithCharacters:...] doing?
Date: 30 Apr 1997 21:54:17 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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In <5k7h0d$34h@merkur.lynet.de> Andreas Hoeschler wrote:
> The problem is the construction of newString. What's stringWithCharacters 
> doing and when is newString deallocated? The procedure I know is the pair
> 
> 	newString = [[Class alloc] init];
> 	...
> 	[newString release];
> 
> Thank you in advance!
> 
> Andreas Hoeschler
> 
> 
All methods with names like classnameWith... return autoreleased instances.
-stringWithCString: and all similar methods return autoreleased instances of 
NSString.

See documentation about release, autorelease, retain

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From: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (A. Guyt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Application Kit as a replacement to AWT in Java ?
Date: 1 May 1997 12:17:30 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology
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Hello,

I'd like to you use Java, but I hate some parts of the AWT conceptual  
structure. Since we have GNUstep, it should be possible to have the  
application kit ported to the java environment.

Does anybody know of initiatives in this direction (apart from Apple's  
announcements to javatize openstep in the long run) ?


Abraham Guyt.

P.S. i know java doesn't offer DPS, but gnustep doesn't either.
_____________________________________________________________________
Abraham Guyt					P.O.Box 356
Department of Information Systems		2600 AJ  Delft
Faculty Technical Mathematics & Informatics	The Netherlands
Delft University of Technology			tel: +31 15 78 5969
E-mail: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl			NeXT-mail welcome
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Application Kit as a replacement to AWT in Java ?
Date: 1 May 1997 17:03:41 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
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A. Guyt writes
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I'd like to you use Java, but I hate some parts of the AWT conceptual  
> structure. Since we have GNUstep, it should be possible to have the  
> application kit ported to the java environment.
> 
> Does anybody know of initiatives in this direction (apart from Apple's  
> announcements to javatize openstep in the long run) ?
> 
> 
> Abraham Guyt.

Netscape's IFC uses a similar model to the NeXT AppKit (gee, I wonder  
why...). And of course, Apple's going to be supporting OpenStep under Java  
(but only on the platforms OPENSTEP is available).
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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  Please cancel this posting
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From: "Bill Keller" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ProjectBuilder Question
Date: Thu, 1 May 1997 18:54:11 -0500
Organization: Oklahoma State University, Stillwater OK
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When I first installed ProjectBuilder, it would open nib files when I
clicked on them.  Now when I click, it opens up an explorer window with the
contents of the nib (directory), and I then have to select objects.nib from
there.  What happened, and how can I fix it?

Jeez, I hope Rhapsody has file wrappers......

Thanks,
Bill Keller (kellerw@okstate.edu)




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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 24 Apr 1997 06:43:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 30
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References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us> <1997Apr23.132544.68046@ucl.ac.uk> 
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On 04/23/97, "m.kangas" wrote:
>On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Java G wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a 
corporate
>> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming 
strategy.


>Secondly, wrt. "dumping GameSprockets"... I don't know the low-level
>details, but I'm guessing that making GameSprockets work on Mach
>would be extremely non-trivial. Perhaps by not commiting to
>delivering GameSprockets, they've simply allowed themselves to
>bring Rhapsody to market sooner (and on a more solid shipping
>schedule). They can always slip it in later. Strategically, to
>"compete with MS's win95 gaming strategy" (which NOBODY, imo, gives
>a hoot about) would amount to shadowboxing and Apple knows it.


	Actually, GameSprockets capabilities are being built into 
Rhapsody according to the sprockets guy..

	You'll be able to do everything you can with Sprockets from 
Rhapsody..


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to save contents of a NSScrollView (NSTextView)
Date: 1 May 1997 23:29:42 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I've composed a window in InterfaceBuilder using the NSScrollView of the 
Palette for a little TextEditor. I now want to save the text in the 
ScrollView but I don't get it working with the online-documentation. From the 
file TextOverview.rtfd I have the following code-fragmnet:

- (void)saveFile:(id)sender
{
    NSSavePanel *panel = [NSSavePanel savePanel];

    switch (theFormat)
	{
      case PlainText:
        [panel setRequiredFileType:@""];
        if ([panel runModal] == NSOKButton) {
            [[theTextView text] writeToFile:[panel filename]
                atomically:YES];
        }
.

where theTextView was declared as "NSTextView *theTextView", but I can't find 
any object with a method called "text" in the docu. Shall that be a joke?
I would really appreciate to see some sample-code showing me, how to get the 
contents from a NSScrollView-Object. Thanks in advance!
 
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From: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl (A. Guyt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Application Kit as a replacement to AWT in Java ?
Date: 2 May 1997 08:55:31 GMT
Organization: Delft University of Technology
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <5kca63$9ag$1@news.tudelft.nl>
References: <5kaidd$2ni@news.next.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dutifb.twi.tudelft.nl

Mark Bessey writes
> A. Guyt writes
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I'd like to you use Java, but I hate some parts of the AWT conceptual  
> > structure. Since we have GNUstep, it should be possible to have the  
> > application kit ported to the java environment.
> > 
> > Does anybody know of initiatives in this direction (apart from Apple's  
> > announcements to javatize openstep in the long run) ?
> > 
> > 
> > Abraham Guyt.
> 
> Netscape's IFC uses a similar model to the NeXT AppKit (gee, I wonder  
> why...). And of course, Apple's going to be supporting OpenStep under  
Java  
> (but only on the platforms OPENSTEP is available).
> --
> Mark Bessey
> Apple Computer, Inc.
> -->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--

This really is very good news. I am looking forward to any releases of  
Apple and Netscape (they converted IFC to JFC yesterday).

Weren't you a former Next employee ?

Abraham Guyt.

_____________________________________________________________________
Abraham Guyt					P.O.Box 356
Department of Information Systems		2600 AJ  Delft
Faculty Technical Mathematics & Informatics	The Netherlands
Delft University of Technology			tel: +31 15 78 5969
E-mail: guyt@is.twi.tudelft.nl			NeXT-mail welcome
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From: hinda ann kolansky
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Date: 2 May 1997 16:40:01 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Services Corp
Lines: 86
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****Make up to $50,000 in 4 weeks! 100% leagal**** NO SCAM!!! 




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3208 21st 
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Glendale Ca. 91208 apt.202 
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Good luck! 





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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to save contents of a NSScrollView (NSTextView)
Date: 2 May 1997 08:18:14 GMT
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <5kc806$baj$1@nntp2.ba.best.com>
References: <5kb916$1h6@merkur.lynet.de>
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On 05/01/97, andreas@lynet.de wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I've composed a window in InterfaceBuilder using the NSScrollView of 
the 
>Palette for a little TextEditor. I now want to save the text in the 
>ScrollView but I don't get it working with the online-documentation. 
From the 
>file TextOverview.rtfd I have the following code-fragmnet:
>
>- (void)saveFile:(id)sender
>{
>    NSSavePanel *panel = [NSSavePanel savePanel];
>
>    switch (theFormat)
>	{
>      case PlainText:
>        [panel setRequiredFileType:@""];
>        if ([panel runModal] == NSOKButton) {
>            [[theTextView text] writeToFile:[panel filename]
>                atomically:YES];
>        }

Assuming that 'theTextView' is connected to the embedded NSTextView 
object and not the enclosing NSScrollView, the method you want to use 
is 'string', which will return an NSString that you can write to a file 
as show above.  Like this:

	[[theTextView string] writeToFile:[panel filename]
			       atomically:YES];

-Ken


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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 18:19:51 GMT
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ignore
Make Money Fast post canceled by J. Porter Clark.
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From: Vladimir Mirochnikov 
Subject: NT client for OpenStep server
Message-ID: <336A233C.4C49@ali.bc.ca>
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
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Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 17:24:12 GMT
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Hi, I'm a beginner in OpenStep and
I'm wondering if someone knows how to make
a remote COM client on NT sending messages
(just plain strings) to a DO server running 
on OpenStep 4.1

Any advises and/or references to documentation
will be greatly appreciated

Thanks
--------------------------
Vladimir Mirochnikov (vladimir@ali.bc.ca)
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From: "H. Blakely Williford" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:13:39 -0500
Organization: The Fuller Brush Company
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <3369F693.104805B4@fuller.com>
References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>  
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John Nagle wrote:
> 
> don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) writes:
> >In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
> > wrote:
> >:  Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
> >:    They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit
> >:  300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
> >:  over the competition.
> 
>      The Alpha is faster and still isn't selling.  See the Business
> week article on it.
> 

com'on -- dec's stealth advertising is going to work  
Palmer is betting the whole existance of the Co. on it.

-- 
H. Blakely Williford          Men never do evil so completely and
Systems Administrator         cheerfully as when they do it from 
The Fuller Brush Company      religious conviction. (Pascal)
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From: "H. Blakely Williford" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Fri, 02 May 1997 09:10:47 -0500
Organization: The Fuller Brush Company
Lines: 14
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paul maddox wrote:
> 
> Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
>   They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit
> 300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
> over the competition.

no not realy dec past that a long time ago with the Alpha 21164PC
at 533Mhz.

-- 
H. Blakely Williford          Men never do evil so completely and
Systems Administrator         cheerfully as when they do it from 
The Fuller Brush Company      religious conviction. (Pascal)
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From: alanf@izzy.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: 2 May 1997 21:56:22 GMT
Organization: "Comshare, Inc."
Lines: 15
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5kdnu6$7pr$1@inet-prime.comshare.com>
References: <5k7gmr$hqc@argon.btinternet.com> <5k7ude$12v@mpaque.mpaque>
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com

In <5k7ude$12v@mpaque.mpaque> Mike Paquette wrote:

> 
> Considering that:
> 	1) The PowerPC OPENSTEP products doesn't exist yet
> 	2) Many Mac developers are also PC developers, or have easy access
> 	   to a PC, or have recently purchased old NeXT hardware.
                                                                              
        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I thought the prelude developer giveaway was Intel _only_ :(

-Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net)
disclaimer: my opinions...

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Bidirectional Parallel Port Driver?
Message-ID: <1997May2.161807.97746@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 2 May 97 16:18:07 MDT
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Are there any parallel port drivers for NS/OS which
support bidirectional data transfer?

Any pointers or useful suggestions appreciated.

TIA,

Ernest

 main application will need
to communicate with.  I need to call the
setStandardInput and setStandardOutput to set up the
communications channels.  However, whenever I
execute my program, I get run-time errors when
calling these methods in the form:

setStandardInput: only defined for abstract class

The application then seems to jump back into its
main event loop without ever reaching the code
that launches the subprocess.

Does anyone else have, or conversely, not have this
problem when using NSTask's?  I'm using OPENSTEP
4.0 for Mach.

Jean-Paul Samson
jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca


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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Introduction to the Extended TextHandling-System of OpenStep
Date: 2 May 1997 18:24:56 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <5kdbho$26t@merkur.lynet.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm-hl222.lynet.de
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

Hello,

does anyone know a good introduction to the extended text-handling system of 
OpenStep 4.1 Mach? The file TextOverview.rtf of the online-docu did not do it 
and I haven't found anything else yet. Is their even a book available, 
wherein this is described?

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: Michael Simpson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.netx.software,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 23 Apr 1997 18:36:54 GMT
Organization: None
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5jlks6$l5g$1@thefuture.qualcomm.com>
References: <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us> <5jlj30$guk$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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In article  John Nagle, nagle@netcom.com
writes:
>Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
>From: John Nagle, nagle@netcom.com
>Date: Wed, 23 Apr 1997 16:26:38 GMT
>>
>don_arb@wolfenet.com (Don Arbow) writes:
>>In article <335C1958.CE3@ridgecrest.ca.us>, paul maddox
>> wrote:
>>:  Apple's strategy for the future seems solid.
>>:    They have superior hardware, the PowerMac, which just this week hit 
>>:  300 MHz-- a clear win for the PowerPC Platform
>>:  over the competition.
>
>     The Alpha is faster and still isn't selling.  See the Business
>week article on it.
>
>>:    To run this great hardware, they have a superior OS on the way -- 
>>:  Rhapsody, which will bring new meaning to the word
>>:  modern and its associated buzzwords, and give some already impressive 
>>:  hardware a large performance boost.
>
>     But it's vaporware.  Last year at this time, we had Copland,
>which was also vaporware, and more compatible.
>
>     Realistically, nothing is going to happen on the application front
>until Rhapsody ships to developers.  That may or may not happen;
>Ellison may succeed in his hostile takeover of Apple, the Saudi
>prince may buy a controlling interest, or Apple may just screw up
>again.
>
>					John Nagle

John,
One of our developers just came back from Apple.  The future is bright. 
I've been a Mac devotee for years.  I've also done programming on Windows
NT.  There was some wishfulness on my part that the Mac had some of the
features of NT.  No more.  Rhapsody is very cool.  Our developer saw it
running and was able to program for it now.

Apple will disclose all at WWDC and I think you will be pleased.

Michael
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From: Chris Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [NSView subviews] is evil
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:28:06 -0400
Organization: ObjectWorks Inc.
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To: Thomas Engel 
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Thomas Engel wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I just ran into this silly problem and want to share my headache with you.
> Beware...[NSView subviews] is evil because it is badly documented.
> 
> In order to remove all your subviews one usually would do:
> 
>         mySubviews = [self subviews]
>         for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
>                 [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
> 
> Having done so you will realize that only some views get removed while others
> get not.
> 
> The problem here is that -subviews returns a reference to the internal
> NSArray which really holds the NSViews subviews. It does not return a copy!
> While we could argue if this is good or bad...the documentation of this
> method is really evil since under OpenStep/NeXTSTEP it used to be common that
> methods which return object which are dangerous to mess around are documented
> to be that way.
> 
> This is a potential problem with OpenStep as a standard for crossplatform
> issues. So while the code shown above might work under GNUstep (which might
> return a true copy of the internal array) under NeXTs OpenStep you must do a:
> 
>         mySubviews = [self subviews]
>         while( [mySubviews count]>0 )
>                 [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:0] removeFromSuperview];
> 
> in order to remove the subviews. But this code might not work under GNUstep.
> 
> I hope that I could save someone out there from the same head scratching I
> had to go through.
> Are there more known "documentation-pitfalls" of this type ? Could someone at
> Apple please fix this for 4.2.
> 
> Aloha
>         Tomi

This would probably work as well:
	mySubviews = [NSArray arrayWithArray:[self subviews]];
	[mySubviews makeObjectsPerform:@selector(removeFromSuperview)]

This will send removeFromSuperview from last to first object.  The
reason I made a copy of subviews was to lessen the likelihood that the
altering of subviews by removeFromSuperview would mess things up.

Chris Johnson
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From: Chris Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Programmitically create a NSTextView - does not work
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 00:42:02 -0400
Organization: ObjectWorks Inc.
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To: Andreas Hoeschler 
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Andreas Hoeschler wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I'm just studying the file TextOverview.rtfd of the
> FoundationFrameworkDocumentation.
> Therein is described how to programmatically create a NSTextView and set it
> as the new contents of a NSWindow.
> I dragged a new Window from the Palette to my nibFile, connected the outlet
> aWindow of my MainController-Class to this window and put the following code
> in an action-method of the controller-class.
> 
> - (void)createMyTextView:(id)sender
> {
>     NSRect contentRect;
> 
>     contentRect = [[aWindow contentView] frame];
> 
>     theTextView = [[NSTextView alloc] initWithFrame:NSMakeRect(0, 0,
> contentRect.size.width,         contentRect.size.height)];
> 
>     [aWindow SetContentView:theTextView];
>     [aWindow makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
>     [aWindow makeFirstResponder:theTextView];
> }
> 
> But, when I press the button, wich is connected to this action-method,
> nothing happens (no window is displayed). When I modify this method to the
> following, the Window is displayed, but the root-view was obviously not
> replaced, because a test-button, previously added to this window in
> InterfaceBuilder is still visible.
> 
> - (void)createMyTextView:(id)sender
> {
>     NSRect contentRect;
> 
>     contentRect = [[aWindow contentView] frame];
> 
>     theTextView = [[NSTextView alloc] initWithFrame:NSMakeRect(0, 0,
> contentRect.size.width,         contentRect.size.height)];
> 
>     [aWindow makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
>     [aWindow SetContentView:theTextView];
>     [aWindow makeFirstResponder:theTextView];
> }
> 
> Is this a bug, or did I do something wrong? Thanks for help in advance.
> 
> Andreas Hoeschler

Andreas,

I just took a quick look at this and SetContentView: should be
setContentView: and should have given you a warning on compile.

Chris
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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: 3 May 1997 00:10:16 GMT
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alanf@izzy.net wrote:

: In <5k7ude$12v@mpaque.mpaque> Mike Paquette wrote:
: 
: > 
: > Considering that:
: > 	1) The PowerPC OPENSTEP products doesn't exist yet
: > 	2) Many Mac developers are also PC developers, or have easy access
: > 	   to a PC, or have recently purchased old NeXT hardware.
:                                                                               
:         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: I thought the prelude developer giveaway was Intel _only_ :(

Apparently not. The boot-disk is Intel only. You don't need
the boot disk if you're already running OpenStep/Mach.


--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Static Libs on OS-NT 4.2
Date: 3 May 1997 07:18:32 GMT
Organization: Stanford University
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Well, I think I tried pretty much everything. How do I build a static library 
with PB under OS-NT 4.2? I know to change the makefile, but still the 
compiler complains about no "public header path" (very well set) and also 
does not produce a library. I don't want DLLs, I need a static lib...

Insights? Someone tweaked the makefiles?

Thanks in advance,
- Stan
---

Nature photography:   http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~stanj
NeXTmail and MIME:    stanj@cs.stanford.edu

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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude to Rhapsody at WWDC
Date: Sat, 3 May 1997 10:53:49 +0200
Organization: Syndetics Research
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Donald R. McGregor  wrote:

> >Apple will be giving away OPENSTEP and WebObjects development tools at
> >this year's World Wide Developers Conference (WWDC).
> 
> Anyone know if java will be included in the 4.2 release? It might
> be worth heading up there for a day if so, otherwise I'll probably
> skip it.

Smart thinking, but it won't work: "Apple is providing all WWDC
attendees who register for *full-conference registration* a free
"Prelude to Rhapsody" software bundle, which includes the latest
versions of OPENSTEP and WebObjects development tools."

The operative words are "full-conference registration". That's US$1000.

Each WWDC attendee will receive a free "Prelude to Rhapsody" shrink-wrap
package which includes:

- OPENSTEP User 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2
- OPENSTEP Developer 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2
- OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 for Windows NT and Windows 95 Prerelease
- WebObjects Developer 3.1
- Associated on-line documentation
- Printed copy of 'Discovering OpenStep: A Developer Tutorial'

Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
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From: Fred Hart 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Debugging framework code
Date: 02 May 1997 17:48:40 -0400
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I have a framework that I would like to be able to setp through using
gdb.  However, gdb does not seem to be able to see the line number
information in the frame work.  I know the object files have the line
number info in them, but when I link the app with the framework (or a
'.a' lib produced from the same .o files) gdb does not see the line
number info.  Any ideas out there? Thanks in advance.

-- Fred Hart Fred.Hart3@bridge.bst.bls.com

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From: "Jean-Paul C. Samson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problems using NSTask's
Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 09:18:33 -0700
Organization: The University of Alberta, Dept. of Computing Science
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Jean-Paul C. Samson wrote:
> I have been trying to use an NSTask object to start
> up a subprocess that my main application will need
> to communicate with.  I need to call the
> setStandardInput and setStandardOutput to set up the
> communications channels.  However, whenever I
> execute my program, I get run-time errors when
> calling these methods in the form:
> 
> setStandardInput: only defined for abstract class

Oh, yeah.  I forgot to mention I've built a class
derived from NSTask in which I'm calling the
setStandardInput method in the superclass NSTask.

Jean-Paul Samson
jeanpaul@cs.ualberta.ca
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From: tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel)
Subject: Re: [NSView subviews] is evil
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MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey) wrote:
> I can't speak for what was common under NEXTSTEP, but under OPENSTEP, you  
> should always assume that if you don't want the value of a kit-supplied  
> object changing out from under you, you'll need to copy it (except for  
> those methods documented as returning a newly-created object).
> 
> This is "hinted at" in zillions of places in the documentation, but we  
> never really come out and say it (not that I could find, anyway). For  
> instance:
...
> These are talking about objects getting released out from under you, but  
> the principle is the same. 
...

I am aware of the rules for autoreleasing..these have been clearly 
documented...and yes..my example lacked my "retain-release" clycle for 
mySubviews. Sorry for any confusion.

> The general rule is: If you don't want an object to disappear mysteriously  
> on you, you have to retain it. If you don't want the contents to change,  
> you need to make a deep copy of it.
> 
> So, the "always right, never fail" version of the above code looks like:
>         mySubviews = [[self subviews] copy];
>         for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
>                 [[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
> 	[mySubViews release];
> 
> Yes, this is ugly. Do you always have to do it this way? No, you can  
> usually get away with making certain assumptions about the implementation  
> (like that the programmer wasn't totally insane). The "good" news is that  
> the copy message is probably very fast on immutable classes, so if an  
> implementation uses the "safe" method above, the extra copy is probably  
> not much overhead.

Now this is not only ugly but propably won't work in this case. If you really 
make a _deep_ copy this would require that the NSArray has to copy its 
encloseds subviews too..and they you can't free the original ones.

> 
> Here's my best attempt at a clear, correct implementation:
>         mySubviews = [[self subviews] copy];
>    	[mySubViews makeObjectsPerform: @selector(removeFromSuperview)]
> 	[mySubViews release];
> 

Now this is something I initially tried to do and then the app barfed out 
with an error like [NSConcereteTralalaArray does not respond to selector 
copy]
I check twice..recompiled twice...nope...I have not mistyped it..and it just 
didn't run.
Don't ask me why...all theory speaks against what reality forced me to 
believe... in this particular case copy just was not willing to work. (I also 
had some wierd memeory exception...and I suspect that gdb under 4.1 is still 
quite buggy...deferring breakpoints at will and such )

Copying a clean solution to the problem while retaining the array won't have 
any benefits since it the array which is changing right under me.

> Alternatively, you could use:
>         mySubviews = [NSArray arrayWithArray: [self subviews]];
>    	[mySubViews makeObjectsPerform: @selector(removeFromSuperview)]
> 

Yes..this really is an elegant solution. I agree.
If I get back to the code I'll give it another try and see if copy still is 
playing tricks on me or if it finally has cooled down a little.

Aloha
	Tomi
_________________________________________________________
Tomi Engel,   tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (NeXTMail welcome)         
Apple & NeXT...check: 
http://asterix.geog.uni-heidelberg.de/TheMerger/
   
     
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Debugging framework code
Date: 3 May 1997 20:22:52 GMT
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Cc: Fred.Hart3@bridge.bst.bls.com

In  Fred 
Hart wrote:
> I have a framework that I would like to be able to setp through using
> gdb.  However, gdb does not seem to be able to see the line number
> information in the frame work.  I know the object files have the line
> number info in them, but when I link the app with the framework (or a
> '.a' lib produced from the same .o files) gdb does not see the line
> number info.  Any ideas out there? Thanks in advance.
> 
> -- Fred Hart Fred.Hart3@bridge.bst.bls.com
> 
> 
The last step when installing frameworks or executables is to strip them.  
This process removes all of the debugging information including line numbers. 
 Use the non-striped frameworks for debugging.

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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How do I get the character | for an logical OR on a German KeyBoard (Intel)
Date: 3 May 1997 14:14:27 GMT
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Hello,

I'm desparately trying to enter a logical OR in my C-source but I do not find 
the corresponding keystroke. I have the German KeyBoard configured in 
Preferences, but the KeyStroke working under Dos/Warp/... does not work under 
OpenStep. Instead the Cursor jumps to the beginning of the file.
Any hints?

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: Jonathan Hendry 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.scitech,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.oop.macapp3
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 19:13:14 -0700
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Scott Anguish wrote:
> 
> On 04/25/97, Mel Martinez wrote:
> >
> >In article <1997Apr23.132544.68046@ucl.ac.uk>,
> >hammond_g@drkclu.meng.ucl.ac.uk (Java G) wrote:
> >>
> >> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a
> corporate
> >> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming
> strategy.
> >>
> >
> >According to information reported on MacInTouch
> (http://www.macintouch.com
> >and other sources, the GameSprockets team is still pretty much
> >intact and GS is still alive at least on MacOS 7/8 & Rhapsody Blue
> >Box for the next few years.  The only unknown is whether they will
> >port GS to Rhapsody Yellow Box - the comment on this from one of
> >the team members was essentially that even _they_ don't know if
> >that is worth doing or not.
> 
>         This is pretty much right from the sprockets-mouth
> 
>         While Game Sprockets on its own isn't necessarily an easy
> sell, the capabilities it offers are coming to Rhapsody...
> 
>         When it comes right down to it, thats what is important.
> 

Exactly.

If all Apple did was directly port the old technologies
over, it would be as bad as Microsoft's Mac software.
Microsoft's Mac apps are Windows at the core, with only
the slightest accomodation of the Mac way of doing things.
And you can tell.

Apple has to look at the old Mac OS technologies, and figure
out how they would best be implemented in the new OS. Things
like Game Sprockets should be redesigned to take the most
advantage of the capabilities of Rhapsody. MacOS didn't
have Mach messages, or distributed objects, or a dynamic
OOP language as the preferred implementation language. 
Rhapsody does, and Apple should rearchitect their 
technologies to take advantage of them.

- Jon
####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news-feed.inet.tele.dk!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!zdc!super.zippo.com!news.onramp.net!news.serv.net!gaea.omnigroup.com!digifix!not-for-mail
From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <25195862113623@digifix.com>
Date: 4 May 1997 03:59:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 344
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
Message-ID: <851862718425@digifix.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: digifix.digifix.com
X-Mailer: Perl5 Mail::Internet v1.23
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:66610 comp.sys.next.announce:4172 comp.sys.next.hardware:28647 comp.sys.next.software:29380 comp.sys.next.misc:25763 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:26596 comp.sys.next.bugs:4290 comp.sys.next.programmer:24282


Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!not-for-mail
From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Debugging framework code
Date: 4 May 1997 02:26:02 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <5kgs3q$830$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
References:  <5kg6qs$8461@castor.cca.rockwell.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cwolf.vip.best.com
In-Reply-To: <5kg6qs$8461@castor.cca.rockwell.com>
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 05/03/97, Erik M. Buck wrote:
>In  Fred 
>Hart wrote:
>> I have a framework that I would like to be able to setp through using
>> gdb.  However, gdb does not seem to be able to see the line number
>> information in the frame work.  I know the object files have the line
>> number info in them, but when I link the app with the framework (or a
>> '.a' lib produced from the same .o files) gdb does not see the line
>> number info.  Any ideas out there? Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> -- Fred Hart Fred.Hart3@bridge.bst.bls.com
>> 
>The last step when installing frameworks or executables is to strip them.  
>This process removes all of the debugging information including line numbers. 
> Use the non-striped frameworks for debugging.

Here's a nifty little trick I use to get around this for OpenStep 4.1 and later.  
Add the following target to your framework's Makefile.postamble:

installDebug::
	$(MAKE) install STRIP="" DEBUG=YES PROFILE=NO OPTIMIZE=NO

Build the installDebug target from ProjectBuilder when you're debugging and you 
want your apps to load a non-optimized, non-stripped version of the framework.  
Build the regular install target when you're ready to build a production release.

The above will only work on OpenStep 4.1 and greater - it won't work on 4.0 due 
to changes in makefiles between 4.0 and 4.1.   (Also has only been tested on 
OpenStep/Mach but don't see why it shouldn't work for OpenStep/NT as well.)

- Chris





-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!zrz.TU-Berlin.DE!news.tu-chemnitz.de!not-for-mail
From: Mario Illgen 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How do I get the character | for an logical OR on a German KeyBoard (Intel)
Date: 4 May 1997 11:50:05 GMT
Organization: University of Technology Chemnitz, FRG
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5kht5d$jav$1@narses.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de>
References: <5kfh83$2bt@merkur.lynet.de>
Reply-To: Mario.Illgen@Informatik.TU-Chemnitz.DE
NNTP-Posting-Host: gormenghast.csn.tu-chemnitz.de
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

Hi Andreas,

andreas@lynet.de wrote:
>I'm desparately trying to enter a logical OR in my C-source but I do not find 
>the corresponding keystroke. I have the German KeyBoard configured in 
>Preferences, but the KeyStroke working under Dos/Warp/... does not work under 
>OpenStep. Instead the Cursor jumps to the beginning of the file.
>Any hints?
>
It's <6>

Ciao, Mario
-- 
Mario Illgen, TU Chemnitz-Zwickau

"I laughed in the mirror for the first time in a year..."

####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!newsfeed.nacamar.de!news.apfel.de!news-fra1.dfn.de!zeus.rbi.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de!grapool30.rz.uni-frankfurt.de!tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de!newsmaster
From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How do I get the character | for an logical OR on a German KeyBoard (Intel)
Date: 4 May 1997 11:45:27 GMT
Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <5khssn$io@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de>
References: <5kfh83$2bt@merkur.lynet.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin095.rz.uni-frankfurt.de
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

andreas@lynet.de wrote:
> I'm desparately trying to enter a logical OR in my C-source but
> I do not find the corresponding keystroke. I have the German
> KeyBoard configured in Preferences, but the KeyStroke working
> under Dos/Warp/... does not work under OpenStep.

Just have a look at the .keymapping file you use (via Keyboard.app) and 
you'll see (and may change as well) the keymapping you use.

On German Intel keyboards, it's usually ALT or CONTROL and the key next to 
the left SHIFT key.


                Bye
                        Uli

_____________________________________________________________________

Uli Zappe               E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
                                (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5      WWW:    -
D-60489 Frankfurt       Fon:    +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany                 Fax:    +49 (69) 9784 0042

staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine 
_____________________________________________________________________
####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.apfel.de!news.maxwell.syr.edu!spring.edu.tw!news.edu.tw!news.nctu.edu.tw!news.csie.nctu.edu.tw!not-for-mail
From: jjhuang@cm.nctu.edu.tw (Jiunn-jye Huang)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How if I want to write drivers for OpenStep without NeXTSTEP?
Date: 4 May 1997 13:36:58 GMT
Organization: National Chiao-Tung University, Taiwan, R.O.C.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <5ki3dq$50v@news.csie.nctu.edu.tw>
NNTP-Posting-Host: jjhuang@server.cm.nctu.edu.tw
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 950824BETA PL0]

Hello,
    I saw the online document bundled with OpenStep 4.1, and it said
that if you want to write drivers, you should develop them in NeXTSTEP 3.3.
But if I don't have NeXTSTEP 3.3, I have only OpenStep 4.1, how should I
do? Just write drivers in UNIX-style? 
    BTW, does anyone know how to write
drivers for Fax modems? Is there any document on how to write drivers for
receiving FAX in NeXTSTEP/OpenStep?
-- 
T = Jiunn-jye Huang
Administrator of Taiwan main NeXT ftp site, ftp://ftp.cm.nctu.edu.tw/
===============================#=========================================
Dept. of Communication Eng.    #  mailto:jjhuang@cm.nctu.edu.tw
National Chiao Tung University #  NeXTMail,PGP,MIME are welcome!
1001 Rd. University            #  URL http://www.cm.nctu.edu.tw/~jjhuang
Hsin Chu City                  #  Phone: +886-3-5726111 x82408/x54592
300 Taiwan                     #  PGP Key ID=0xC40BC8B5 on Key Server
===============================#=========================================
####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!blackbush.xlink.net!gaertner.de!oker.escape.de!orest!olaf
From: olaf@orest.escape.de
Subject: adressBooks - how to access by program?
Message-ID: 
Sender: olaf@orest.escape.de (Olaf Mueller)
Reply-To: olaf@orest.escape.de
Organization: Objective Methods, Inc.
Date: Sun, 4 May 1997 12:13:34 GMT
Lines: 9

Hello,

does anyone know how to communicate with the WorkSpace to read/manipulate
the adressBooks ".addresses" using objC?

A documentation and/or example would be fine.

Regards
Olaf
####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!thor.cmp.ilstu.edu!news
From: "Eric A. Dubiel" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Display GhostScript on GNUstep Was:Re: Application Kit as a replacement to AWT in Java ?
Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 19:00:22 -0600
Organization: Instructional Technology Development - Illinois State University, Bloomington-Normal, USA
Lines: 138
Message-ID: <336D3115.33CA@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu>
References: <5ka1kq$c1a$1@news.tudelft.nl>
Reply-To: eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: h0010111.smith.ilstu.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; PPC)
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24288 comp.sys.next.advocacy:66717 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:216785 comp.sys.next.software:29387

A. Guyt wrote:
> I'd like to you use Java, but I hate some parts of the AWT conceptual
> structure. Since we have GNUstep, it should be possible to have the
> application kit ported to the java environment.
> 
> Does anybody know of initiatives in this direction (apart from Apple's
> announcements to javatize openstep in the long run) ?
> 
> Abraham Guyt.
> 
> P.S. i know java doesn't offer DPS, but gnustep doesn't either.

GNUstep WILL :)  

Also see http://www.openstepnews.com
----------
OPENSTEP NewsFlash

1. DISPLAY GHOSTSCRIPT ON GNUSTEP
2. ANALYSIS
3. NEXTSTEP / JAVA GURU SOUGHT
4. SUBSCRIPTIONS NOW AVAILABLE

1. DISPLAY GHOSTSCRIPT ON GNUSTEP
The GNUstep project has contracted with L. Peter Deutsch, the author of
Ghostscript, to enhance Ghostscript by adding the full set of Display
PostScript operators, the alpha channel and compositing facilities of
NeXT's
Display PostScript system, basic multi-threading capabilities, and other
relevant improvements.  This will complete the work that the GNUstep
project
has already started, and allow "Display Ghostscript" to serve as a
plug-compatible replacement for NeXT's Display PostScript system in the
context of GNUstep.

The enhancements, like the rest of Ghostscript, will be owned by Aladdin
Enterprises (Deutsch's consulting business).  They will be included in
all
future versions of Aladdin Ghostscript under the Aladdin Free Public
License
(a license very similar to the GNU License, with some added restrictions
on
for-profit distribution).  Aladdin Ghostscript versions are re-released
under the GNU License as GNU Ghostscript versions approximately 18
months
after the Aladdin release.  However, in order to avoid delaying the
GNUstep
project, Deutsch has agreed to release the Display Ghostscript
enhancements
under the GNU License immediately, on a one-time basis.  This does not
include the work of retrofitting them to the current GNU Ghostscript,
which
presumably will be done by GNUstep project members.

Aladdin's work on Display Ghostscript has already started, and is
scheduled
to be completed in September 1997, with several identified milestones
before
then.
www.gnustep.org
www.net-community.com

2. ANALYSIS
This announcement is representative of the rapid growth of the GNUStep
project.      Web Browsers and JAVA make this the age of diversity in
operating systems, and development environments.   We are witnessing the
diversity brought about by the internet.

3. NEXTSTEP / JAVA GURU SOUGHT
This client is willing to pay any price for the best NeXTStep / JAVA
Consultant.  They want someone with many many years of NeXTStep design
experience, and enough JAVA experience to know how to use the tools, and
understand the class libraries.   The client is a famous person in the
Objective-C community, and I respect him hugely.  I have had many
resumes
come through here, but I have not seen any that meet the client's
requirements.   That means that the client needs to pay more to find
what
they are looking for.  The position is in the San Francisco Bay Area,
initially for about 110 days.

4. SUBSCRIPTIONS NOW AVAILABLE
This newsletter is now available as ascii email, NeXTMAil, and Mime
mail.
Send your subscription and cancellation requests to the email address
corresponding to the verion that you want or do not want:

	Ascii version   		newsletter-request@lists.best.com

	NeXTMAIL version 	nextletter-request@lists.best.com
	MIME version			newsletter-mime-
request@lists.best.com

The body of the message should contain the keyword 'subsingle' alone or,
if
you want to subscribe a third-party address, the subsingle keyword may
be
followed by an email address.
subsingle
or
subsingle email-address

You will then get an authentication message.  Reply to it appropriately
and
you will then be subscribed. (Note: Do not use the 'subscribe' keyword,
or
you will get the digest version of the newsletter once a year).   You
can
also subscribe multiple people in a single email message, one per line.

Since this newsletter targets OpenStep Developers, I prefer if you
subscribe
to the NeXTMAIL version.  If you are able to do that, then please tell
me a
little about how you are using NeXTStep or what you would like to see
happen. To make my job easier, please left justify your name and e-mail
address, one line each, as follows:

Christopher Lozinski
BPG
35032 Maidstone Court
Newark, CA 94560
lozinski@OpenStepNews.com

Copyright 1997 Berkeley Productivity Group. All rights reserved.
Non-profit, non-commercial publications and web sites may reprint or
link to
articles if full credit is given. Others please contact us. We do not
guarantee accuracy of articles. Caveat lector. Publication, product, and
company names may be registered trademarks of their companies.
-- 
Eric A. Dubiel; http://www.ilstu.edu/~eadubie
mailto:eadubie@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu  
ytalk eadubie@138.87.201.11--MIME, SUN, NeXT, PGP Mail ok 
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From: jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff)
Subject: Re: How do I get the character | for an logical OR on a German KeyBoard (Intel)
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In article <5kht5d$jav$1@narses.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de> Mario Illgen  
 writes:

> Hi Andreas,
> 
> andreas@lynet.de wrote:
> >I'm desparately trying to enter a logical OR in my C-source 
> >but I do not find 
> >the corresponding keystroke. I have the German KeyBoard configured in 
> >Preferences, but the KeyStroke working under Dos/Warp/... 
> >does not work under 
> >OpenStep. Instead the Cursor jumps to the beginning of the file.
> >Any hints?
> >
> It's <6>

Yes, but why has the ProjectBuilder another keyboard layout like the rest of  
the applications?

	Juergen
next to 
> the left SHIFT key.

No, not in the ProjectBuilder :-). In the PB it is AltGr 6...

	Juergen
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From: Great Sites 
Subject: Metrics
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Date: Sat, 03 May 1997 02:55:57 GMT
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Great Site URL:http://www.psrinc.com/metsys.htm


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We are accepting new and previously published writers for publication.
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From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How do I get the character | for an logical OR on a German KeyBoard (Intel)
Date: 5 May 1997 07:30:22 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
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jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff) wrote:
> 
> In article <5kht5d$jav$1@narses.hrz.tu-chemnitz.de> Mario Illgen  
>  writes:
> 
> > Hi Andreas,
> > 
> > andreas@lynet.de wrote:
> > >I'm desparately trying to enter a logical OR in my C-source 
> > >but I do not find 
> > >the corresponding keystroke. I have the German KeyBoard configured in 
> > >Preferences, but the KeyStroke working under Dos/Warp/... 
> > >does not work under 
> > >OpenStep. Instead the Cursor jumps to the beginning of the file.
> > >Any hints?
> > >
> > It's <6>
> 
> Yes, but why has the ProjectBuilder another keyboard layout like
> the rest of   the applications?

While we're at it:
Why is it impossible to reassign certain key-combinations using the new Text 
system?
I successfully managed to remap the Pos1 and End keys of the PC Keyboard in 
Project Builder so that Pos1 takes you to the beginning of the line, not the 
text.
What I wanted to do now is to remap CTRL-cursor-left and CTRL-cursor-right to 
jump wordwise forward or backward. I tried to redefine the Keys from the 
AppKit plist and found that none of the Apps using the new Text system 
recognizes them.

Does anybody have any hints for that?

-dirk

---
______________________________________________________________________
Dirk Olmes      OBJECT FACTORY
                Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
                Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany
                Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0
                Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99
                dirk@object-factory.com
                http://www.object-factory.com/

Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95
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From: andreas@wb-net.de
Subject: What's NSLog () doing?
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Hello,

in the NextExamples I often encounter the function NSLog (...), but if I do a 
search for it, I only find the declaration. What's this function doing (where 
is the string written to, if I use it in my application)? Thanks in advance!

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: bresink@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Marcel Bresink)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: What's NSLog () doing?
Date: 5 May 1997 13:55:34 GMT
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andreas@wb-net.de wrote:
> in the NextExamples I often encounter the function NSLog (...), but if I 
> do a search for it, I only find the declaration.

This function is documented in the Foundation Kit Reference 
"Functions/FoundationFunctions". It simply sends an NSString (given in printf 
format) to stderr. If you use this function in a standard application, the 
string will appear with application ID, date and time on the console (that 
is, the Console Window of the Workspace Manager on Mach, or the Console 
application on Windows).

Marcel

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From: szallies@energotec.de (Constantin Szallies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [NSView subviews] is evil
Date: 5 May 1997 15:50:38 GMT
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tomi@shinto.nbg.sub.org (Thomas Engel) wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I just ran into this silly problem and want to share my headache with you.
>Beware...[NSView subviews] is evil because it is badly documented.
>
>In order to remove all your subviews one usually would do:
>
>	mySubviews = [self subviews]
>	for( i=0; i<[mySubviews count]; i++ )
>		[[mySubviews objectAtIndex:i] removeFromSuperview];
>
>
>Having done so you will realize that only some views get removed while 
others 
>get not.
>
>The problem here is that -subviews returns a reference to the internal 
>NSArray which really holds the NSViews subviews. It does not return a copy!
[snip]

There has been already a lengthy discussion about this point. The key to 
understanding is that NSMutableArray is a subclass of NSArray, this means the 
following: 

If a method returns a pointer to an NSArray, you get a reference to some 
object of class NSArray or any subclass of NSArray. Therefore you get an 
object container that you can't change. But someone else might change it, 
because the real class of the object might be NSMutableArray (or any subclass 
of it).  

Consider this (public) class hierarchy:

         /--- NSMutableArray
NSArray <
         \--- NSImmutableArray

Were NSArray's and NSMutableArray's interface is defined as in Openstep and 
NSImmutableArray is a subclass of NSArray that does not add any new method 
declaration.

Now consider the difference in the method signature:
- (NSArray *)subviews;
- (NSMutableArray *)subviews;
- (NSImmutableArray *)subviews;

The first method returns a container that you can't change, but might be 
changed by someone else.
The second method returns a container that you can change and might be 
changed by someone else.
The third method returns a container that you can't change and can't be 
changed by someone else.

But in Openstep there is no (public) subclass of NSArray that explicitly 
defines an immutable array!

The semantics of a class is NOT completely described by the set of method 
signatures. It's not enough for a subclass to just implement all methods, the 
expected behavior, defined by the superclass, must also match.

Check how the Java AWT handles this problem. There's one class for a mutable 
string and one class for an immutable string and they don't subclass from 
each other!

Also note that the semantics of "to change a container" brings you to the 
deep vs. shallow copy problem, a problem that has nothing to do with the 
problem you described. Also garbage collection is a separate problem as well. 
I just mentioned this because other people in this thread started discussing 
about this.

Have a nice day,
-- 
# Constantin Szallies, Energotec GmbH
# szallies@energotec.de
# 49211-9144018
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to debug [autorelease of freed object]
Date: 5 May 1997 16:57:53 GMT
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I turned on autorelease checking and much to my dismay, I am getting an 
[autorelease of freed object] error message.  Ho do I find out what object is 
causing the problem ?  The autorelease pool does not even tell be the address 
of the freed object.

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From: alanf@izzy.net
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Subject: Desktop Components
Date: 5 May 1997 21:03:48 GMT
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I'm using a combination of Digital Librarian and Chronographer (currently 
free) to track information about the developers and end-users I support as a 
Sysadmin/DBA.  In many ways this simple arrangement rivals (or surpasses) the 
custom software used on the PeeCees here, which makes me wonder: is it 
plausible to create an application by extending desktop "objects"?  When does 
an application become so specialized that you'd have to destroy the 
general-purpose nature of a "Calendar" or a "Phone" desktop object to 
integrate it?   

-Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net)

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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
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Subject: How to get the range of a line in a string?
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I'd like an NSString-rangeForLine:(unsigned)lineNumber method, but I don't 
see one. There are these methods:

- (void)getLineStart:(unsigned *)startPtr end:(unsigned *)lineEndPtr
	contentsEnd:(unsigned *)contentsEndPtr forRange:(NSRange)range;
- (NSRange)lineRangeForRange:(NSRange)range;

but they only expand a range to line boundaries. I suppose I could start with 
a range of (0,0), use lineRangeForRange:, move the range up one character and 
keep looping until I've counted so many lines.

But is there an easier way?

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Message-ID: <336469B7.69FF0CE8@iphysiol.unil.ch>
Date: Mon, 28 Apr 1997 11:11:20 +0200
From: Sean Hill 
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Thank you for the previous responses and solutions.  I'm continuing on
my quest to make D'OLE work with Matlab.

The arguments of two of the methods for the Matlab engine require
SAFEARRAYs.  This is a structure defined by microsoft which defines the
dimensions and bounds of an array.  Does D'OLE handle SAFEARRAYs?  And
if not how can I implement it myself?  Can I wrap this up in my own
custom object for transport?  How would it then be decoded for the OLE
side?  Is it possible?  The SAFEARRAY contains a pointer to the data
which I wouldn't be able to wrap up in an NSValue.

Any info on how to make this work would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks-
Sean
shill@iphysiol.unil.ch

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From: rex@mit.edu (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: DPS & GX benchmarks and GXUnionShape
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 17:27:59 -0500
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:
)"If the current clipping path is the result of application of the "clip" or
)"eoclip" operator, the path set by clippath is generally suitable only for
)filling or clipping. It is not suitable for stroking because it may contain
)interior segments or disconnected subpaths produced by the clipping
)process." Red Book, 2nd ed, p 374.
)
)
)
)
)OTOH,
)
)"GXUnionShape function finds the union of the target shape and the operand
)shape, reduces and simplifies the result, and stores it in the target
)shape.
)
)This function considers the shape fill, the style modifications and the
)transform mapping of the target and operand shape. Only areas that are
)drawn are considered when calculating the union."
)
)Er, can we say "overkill" in comparison to what the DPS clip operator is
)doing?

   I wouldn't call it overkill but rather something that actually produces
output that is useful for someone writing an illustration app. Those
interior points should be eliminated in a true union operator. Leaving
them around just means more work for the developer. Of course in this case
this is just a clip operator not a union operator.

)So, we're left with an exceedingly inefficient way of creating new clips
)from old on the GX side, and STILL (as far as I can tell from reading the
)PS Red Book) no way of creating a union of two paths on the DPS side.

   I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't one. PS doesn't seem like it was
designed with this sort of thing in mind. 

)I came up with the idea of using GXSetShapeParts to append the geometric
)points of the text-string to the old clip-shape. This SHOULD be very fast,
)since it basically means that I'm moving a few dozen bytes of data around.
)It's also very memory-intensive, since 100 iterations would mean 100x as
)many points.

   There's a subtle problem with this method, in that you have to be
careful how you add and order your control points. With the wrong
fill-style you could conceivably introduce holes or unwanted filled
sections in your composite clip shape. The GXUnionShape call handles these
gotchas and other weird special cases, but it's not a trivial process. (As
its performance shows...) If you just stuck with a winding fill for your
text drawing you're putting up a limitation that wouldn't be there in the
offscreen buffer method. 

)Eric King suggested creating an off-screen 1-bit-deep bitmap, associate it
)with a ViewDevice, and render the old clip-shape and the text string into
)an off-screen viewport and set the clip-shape to be the bitmap.
)
)This would be cumbersome, 

   Cumbersome's a bit strong. You have to make a few extra setup calls,
but during the actual loop where you add the text you'll have roughly the
same amount of code as your existing example.

-Eric
-- 
Excerpt from Marianne Moore's 'The Pangolin'
This near artichoke with head and legs and grit-equipped gizzard,
the night miniature artist engineer is, yes, Leonardo da Vinci's replica-
impressive animal and toiler for whom we seldom hear.
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From: yannick buisson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSView ans subview
Date: 5 May 1997 14:56:59 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5kksfr$5mm@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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Hi all,

I'm using NSView add try to switch the contentView from the main window.
When i do a click on a button, i switch on another contentView that
replace the old (that contain the trigger button).

The problem is that the button (that is in the old contentView) still
redraw over the new contentView !!

Why ??

any suggestions ??

thnaks for your help

Best regards,
YANNICK
-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 05 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 05 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: ullius@abraxas.ethz.ch (Markus Ullius)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to determine which applications are launched
Date: 6 May 1997 06:16:08 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETHZ)
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <5kmib8$oct$1@elna.ethz.ch>
NNTP-Posting-Host: abraxas.ethz.ch

How can I determine in my application which applications are currently
running?
Is there a simple way to invoke methods of such a running application?

Thanks
Markus
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From: John LaViola 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Driver debugging
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 22:10:30 -0400
Organization: i-conn
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <33713616.28D2@iconn.net>
References: <336F7728.62C1@iconn.net>
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If anyone cares, I found out the following:

You need to run: arp -f target_name ethernet_address 
to establish the network connect for remote debug.  

Not in any documentation I've ever seen!
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From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [ANN] WWDC Preview of CW Latitude
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 19:14:24 -0400
Organization: Metrowerks
Lines: 31
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: aumi0-a09.ccm.tds.net
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:66859 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4984 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:11475 comp.sys.next.programmer:24306

CodeWarriors,

If you are planning to attend WWDC in San Jose, please stop by the
CodeWarrior Lounge (Room J-3).  See the new 2.0 IDE, learn how CodeWarrior
Latitude will make the transition to Rhapsody easier, and meet our
engineers, who will be available to answer any questions you may have.
CodeWarrior Latitude DR1 will be available next week and purchases can be
made at WWDC, by calling our customer service department, and by
contacting resellers.


CodeWarrior Latitude:

-Is a porting tool which allows you to quickly move existing Mac OS 7.X
applications to UNIX, and soon Rhapsody.

-Contains a set of shared libraries which perfom the functions of the
Macintosh API.

-Allows you to identify which portions of your code will port smoothly and
which Mac Toolbox traps are not implemented, by compiling and linking your
CodeWarrior project with the special Latitiude test libraries.

CodeWarrior Latitude also includes:
-Two free updates
-Free technical support
-Sun Solaris and SGI IRIX porting tools.

-- 
     METROWERKS                                   Ron Liechty
 http://www.metrowerks.com     MWRon@metrowerks.com
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From: Jay Swan 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: help with tableview
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 14:26:23 -0400
Organization: Middlebury College
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <3370C94F.D4C19C2C@flannet.middlebury.edu>
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I'm new to OpenStep and pretty new to programming in general, so this
may be a Real Stupid Question.

I'm trying to get data into a simple table view, and my app keeps
raising fatal exceptions with the following message in the debugger:

objc: FREED(id): message objectAtIndex: send to freed

This occurs in the tableView:objectValueForTableColumn:row method
whenever I send

[tableView reloadData];

My implementation of the method is pretty simple--I'm trying to follow
the example in the tutorial pretty closely:

- (id)tableView:(NSTableView *)theTableView
objectValueForTableColumn:(NSTableColumn *)theColumn row:(int)rowIndex
{
if ([[theColumn identifier] isEqualToString:@"wordColumn"])
        return [glossaryKeys objectAtIndex:rowIndex];
    else if ([[theColumn identifier] isEqualToString:@"glossColumn"])
        return [glossary objectForKey:[glossaryKeys
objectAtIndex:rowIndex]];
    else
        return nil;
}

glossary is an NSMutableArray, glossaryKeys is an NSArray.

What am I doing wrong?

Jay Swan

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From: Chris Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: help with tableview
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 22:49:09 -0400
Organization: ObjectWorks Inc.
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <33713F25.B34D3BAC@object-works.com>
References: <3370C94F.D4C19C2C@flannet.middlebury.edu>
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To: Jay_Swan@flannet.middlebury.edu
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Jay Swan wrote:
> 
> I'm new to OpenStep and pretty new to programming in general, so this
> may be a Real Stupid Question.
> 
> I'm trying to get data into a simple table view, and my app keeps
> raising fatal exceptions with the following message in the debugger:
> 
> objc: FREED(id): message objectAtIndex: send to freed
> 
> This occurs in the tableView:objectValueForTableColumn:row method
> whenever I send
> 
> [tableView reloadData];
> 
> My implementation of the method is pretty simple--I'm trying to follow
> the example in the tutorial pretty closely:
> 
> - (id)tableView:(NSTableView *)theTableView
> objectValueForTableColumn:(NSTableColumn *)theColumn row:(int)rowIndex
> {
> if ([[theColumn identifier] isEqualToString:@"wordColumn"])
>         return [glossaryKeys objectAtIndex:rowIndex];
>     else if ([[theColumn identifier] isEqualToString:@"glossColumn"])
>         return [glossary objectForKey:[glossaryKeys
> objectAtIndex:rowIndex]];
>     else
>         return nil;
> }
> 
> glossary is an NSMutableArray, glossaryKeys is an NSArray.
> 
> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> Jay Swan

Looks as if glossaryKeys might have been created as an autoreleased
NSArray as your error occurs when you send a message to it.  Check the
retainCount of glossaryKeys and what your doing to it before and after
this method gets called.

Chris Johnson.
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: DPS & GX benchmarks and GXUnionShape
Date: 7 May 1997 11:37:02 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Lines: 129
Message-ID: 
X-Posted-By: @206.165.44.18 (english)
To: "Marcel Weiher" 
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Since my server is apparently VERY messed up, I never saw many of the
messages about Display PostScript and GX, including a message (I guess)
from Marcel Weiher  about a snippet of code that he wrote
in Display PostScript to implement a union-shape-like function. He very
kindly sent me a copy in e-mail.


Background: I wrote a snippet of code in HyperCard using my GX glue XFCN
that obtained the clip-shape of a viewport, did a GXUnionShape with a
text-string and reset the clip-shape, enlarged the text-string by one
point, and repeated the process 100 times. This took an agonizingly long
100 seconds.

Marcel Weiher implemented a similar algorithm in PostScript that was over
14 times faster on his 040 NeXT machine than it was on my 7100/66 PowerMac
with 1MB L2 cache. 

OOPS.


Maybe it's all the fault of the Mixed-Mode Manager and my 68K glue in my
XFCN?

Implementing the same algorithm in C brought the time down to 26 seconds.
Still 4x slower than the 040 DPS code.


I was naturally very upset with this finding and couldn't figure out why it
was so. Then, about the same time that Eric King made the observation to
me, I noted this line about the "clippath" operator in PostSCript:


"If the current clipping path is the result of application of the "clip" or
"eoclip" operator, the path set by clippath is generally suitable only for
filling or clipping. It is not suitable for stroking because it may contain
interior segments or disconnected subpaths produced by the clipping
process." Red Book, 2nd ed, p 374.




OTOH,

"GXUnionShape function finds the union of the target shape and the operand
shape, reduces and simplifies the result, and stores it in the target
shape.

This function considers the shape fill, the style modifications and the
transform mapping of the target and operand shape. Only areas that are
drawn are considered when calculating the union."

Er, can we say "overkill" in comparison to what the DPS clip operator is
doing?


So, we're left with an exceedingly inefficient way of creating new clips
from old on the GX side, and STILL (as far as I can tell from reading the
PS Red Book) no way of creating a union of two paths on the DPS side.

I came up with the idea of using GXSetShapeParts to append the geometric
points of the text-string to the old clip-shape. This SHOULD be very fast,
since it basically means that I'm moving a few dozen bytes of data around.
It's also very memory-intensive, since 100 iterations would mean 100x as
many points.

Eric King suggested creating an off-screen 1-bit-deep bitmap, associate it
with a ViewDevice, and render the old clip-shape and the text string into
an off-screen viewport and set the clip-shape to be the bitmap.

This would be cumbersome, but each iteration would merely mean that one
draws the larger text-string into the bitmap and set it to be the
clip-shape. Almost as fast as the GXSetShapeParts method and MUCH more
efficient as a clip-shape since you're using the bitmap as a mask.
Resolution-dependent, unfortunately. Level 3 PostScript is supposed to
allow the use of 1-bit bitmaps for clipping, I believe.



Sooo, to complete our "benchmark" of GX vs DPS concerning union-clipping
and GXUnionShape, I'll finish the glue for the OffScreen Bitmap library and
time my method and Eric's method in HyperCard and C.

Marcel or someone else on the DPS side will need to better-understand what
GXUnionShape does and implement something like GXUnionShape that is
"suitable for stroking" using DPS. We can then compare notes.


Basically, when GXUnionShape is dealing with solid fills, it eliminates
interior points and curves/paths. If the solid rectangle and the
text-string were super-imposed, drawing the result of GXUnionShape using a
solid fill would give you a shape as you would expect. If that same shape
were then drawn using a frame-fill, you would see the outline of the text
*outside* the rectangle, but nothing inside the rectangle. The points that
defined that section of text were eliminated ("reduced and simplified")
because they are not part of the union of the two full shapes. Ditto with
the side of the rectangle taken up by the text-string. 


If one of the shapes has a transform, such as skew, rotate or 3D, THAT is
what the union is performed on, not the untransformed version. The manual
appears to imply that any clip-shapes associated with the shapes are
applied as well: "only areas that are drawn are considered" so a
GXUnionShape of a rectangle and a bit of text might have text missing from
the other end as well, if  the text-shape has a non-full clip-shape.


Implementing all of the above options using DPS should prove an interesting
challenge...



Now that I better understand what GXUnionShape does, and what the PS clip
and clippath operators do, I believe that I can implement a pretty speedy
equivalent to Marcel's DPS clipping algorithm using GX.

What will the DPS-equivalent of GXUnionShape be like, I wonder...

-- 
Customer:      "I'm running Windows '95."
Tech Support:  "Yes."
Customer:      "My computer isn't working now."
Tech Support:  "Yes, you said that."
--
english@primenet.com





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From: Chris Johnson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to debug [autorelease of freed object]
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 22:54:30 -0400
Organization: ObjectWorks Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <33714066.36960F1B@object-works.com>
References: <5kl3ih$ab72@castor.cca.rockwell.com>
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To: "Erik M. Buck" 
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Erik M. Buck wrote:
> 
> I turned on autorelease checking and much to my dismay, I am getting an
> [autorelease of freed object] error message.  Ho do I find out what object is
> causing the problem ?  The autorelease pool does not even tell be the address
> of the freed object.

Check out the NSDebug header and create zombies of your autoreleased
objects and set the breakpoint about double autoreleasing that is
discussed.  For more help Email alex@genoa.com ... he has done a lot of
debugging using the NSDebug methods and cleaned up lots of sticky memory
issues.  If your lucky he might give you his loadable debug panel that
will set all set this up for you graphically.

Tell him Chris Johnson sent you.

Chris
####################################################################
Message-ID: <336EE371.244C2479@iphysiol.unil.ch>
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 09:53:21 +0200
From: Sean Hill 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (WinNT; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Persistent property list with custom objects
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I would like to add my own objects to a NSPPL.  What I've done is added
some methods for adding my objects which archive them into an NSData and
then add them to the PPL.  Then they perform the reverse on retrieving
the objects.

I've seen NSSerializer and it looks good, however what is frustrating is
that I can't (as far as I understand) implement a NSSerialization
protocol and have my custom object serializable.  I have to go via a
call back object.  What is the reasoning here?  It makes things
awkward.  How could I use this in any event with NSPPL?

Thanks for any info.
Sean
shill@iphysiol.unil.ch

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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Code navigation
Date: 7 May 1997 23:30:33 -0700
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: idiom.com
X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.0 #1 (NOV)

I don't mean to get off on a rant here, but...

I've had my hands on OpenStep/Developer for quite a while now, and
I've looked at CodeWarrior, and I used to use Think C, MPW-C, and
a whole bunch of other things in my time.

Tools for navigation in the source files are all very well and
good, but isn't it about time we QUIT KEEPING OUR CODE IN FLAT
FILES?

What I want, whether from Apple, NeXT, MetroWerks, Symantec, or
hell, even microsquish, is a database of my code, with full versioning
at the method level!

I want to browse my classes, pick a method, pop open an editing
window (or pane) for just that method, split the window to show me
that method and another method at the same time, and let me page
back and forth through the versions of each method!  

When a class needs to get compiled, the class should be able to
see which methods have changed since the last build,  and only
compile and link those in.

Aren't there enough people writing code now, that it's worth writing
specialized tools for managing code?  NeXTSTEP is getting really
long in the tooth.  It's better than everything else I've seen,
but dammit, that's NOT GOOD ENOUGH!



-jcr

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From: etienne@jupiter.univ-lr.fr (Etienne Gourdon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Link error on OpenStep/Windows NT : fatal error LNK1120
Date: 6 May 1997 10:03:13 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Message-ID: <5kmvl1$gng@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: jupiter.univ-lr.fr
Keywords: OpenStep Windows NT
Lines: 40
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24313 comp.sys.next.software:29427


Hi all,

I've the following link error on OpenStep Windows NT :
fatal error LNK1120

Thanks for any help .


/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Executables/gcc 
-LC:/Etienne/Situation/obj-i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5-opt  -win     -arch
i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5 -o C:/Etienne/Situation/Situation.app/Situation.exe 
C:/Etienne/Situation/obj-i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5-opt/Situation_main.o    
C:/Etienne/Situation/obj-i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5-opt/appResources.o     
-framework AppKit -framework CompleteAccess -framework CompleteAccessAppKit
-framework CompleteAccessEditor -framework Foundation
/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/libNSWinMain.a     
LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
"NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/libNSWinMain.a"; ignored
LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/AppKit.lib"; ignored
LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/CompleteAccess.framework/CompleteAccess.lib";
ignored
LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/CompleteAccessAppKit.framework/CompleteAccessAp
pKit.lib"; ignored
LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/CompleteAccessEditor.framework/CompleteAccessEd
itor.lib"; ignored
LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Foundation.lib"; ignored
Situation_main.o : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol
__imp__NSApplicationMain
msvcrt.lib(crtexew.obj) : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol
_WinMain@16
C:/Etienne/Situation/Situation.app/Situation.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 2
unresolved externals
gcc: Internal compiler error: program ld got fatal signal 127
make: *** [C:/Etienne/Situation/Situation.app/Situation.exe] Error 1
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From: igerard@ina.fr (Gerard Iglesias)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [HELP] Perl and DB_File
Date: 6 May 1997 10:00:42 GMT
Organization: INA, Institut National de l'Audiovisuel, Bry-sur-Marne, France
Lines: 13
Message-ID: <5kmvga$c75$1@wolfy.ina.fr>
Reply-To: igerard@ina.fr(Gerard Iglesias)
NNTP-Posting-Host: shadok.ina.fr
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9 Beta(i)

What is the way to use DB_File with perl 5.002 on NeXT?

The package is not in the distribution.

Wher can I found Berkeley DB for NeXT?

Thanks you in advance.

--
Gerard Iglesias
Email : igerard@ina.fr
Computer Graphics researcher INA.

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: tony.campbell@fidonet.org
Subject: The Shotgun BBS Secret Is Finally Out!!!
Message-ID: <577cd$143a9.304@NEWS>
Date: Thu, 08 May 1997 02:58:09 GMT
X-Everything: Shotgun v2.00
Lines: 1882



This archive was created to show you how the proprietary graphics protocol
used by Shotgun BBS actually works. Yes people, the secret is out, no more
trying to hide Shotgun's limitations, you can now see why there are no SVGA
doors written for Shotgun. It is simply because of the lack of forethought
and good planning by the author. Everything in this archive is written for
Borland/Turbo Pascal v7.0

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The BBSLIST.PAS is the main program source code for an example BBS
listing door for Shotgun. Its simple, and shows you exactly what a
person can actually do with SVGA doors and Shotgun. That is "Very
Little", sad, but true. The chances of Shotgun's graphics protocol
ever becoming adopted as a standard are slim to absolutely none.

The YAPPKIT.PAS is the unit file that shows how Shotgun BBS handles
screens and parses keypresses. If you don't use Async Professional,
you will no doubt have to make major modifications to this file!

To recompile the SG screens to GIP screens, use the -REALNAME switch
at the end of the command line for PAKGIP.EXE or it won't work! You
_can't_ just renmame the file!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tony Campbell, SysOp
TheLitterBox(r) BBS
   
   717-765-8995
1:270/1001@Fidonet


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ML*I:^@(6BK29VD').*0#SQ.8/9BR@#$#$
MEH0K8@LY0%)%M*-?Q@DJ.OWNR`1PG2KFE5RRT7I>CXM)G=PYN9FOQ#]]T^\'
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M;;#XK.*I=LDLO5G\<654$=5031IG?%"CU"]NBX,U#PL(1@G^JW',-I8L![V*
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MFDZ_I)\\SJ#@3TC1YL>!Y:..HH$K#QRNJW&*LLG4`S+F^SZCU"5[HXX?\0Y'>4[G61;_V8]?B;.0'Q-=`"`*0`Q`0``2`8```#AWAVA8!/;
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M"M*K>@BX]PT\\H5^B"L#R(UF(ZAI#0,!]^CG5._,QDC6B<=H
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John C. Randolph wrote:
> I don't mean to get off on a rant here, but...

Don't hold back the feeling! Let it all out! :)

> (rant about dev tools that are NOT GOOD ENOUGH)

It won't help you with NEXTSTEP/ObjC development, and some
people might start throwing stones at me for suggesting this
in csnp, but I would advise you to take a deep breath and
look at (gulp) IBM's VisualAge family for (heresy!) NT/95.
If there's something that any OPENSTEP developers should look at
while 'checking out the other side of the fence', this is it.
See http://www.software.hosting.ibm.com/ad/
It's one hell of a monster dev environment, and it's getting
rave reviews left and right.

Now all we need is a port to OPENSTEP/Rhapsody.
If any Rhapsody evangelists are reading this: please call your
friendly IBM representative now and ask for a port.
Oh, and don't forget to mention OS/Mach/x86 :-)

Holger

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [ANN] WWDC Preview of CW Latitude
Message-ID: <2946063863@hoult.actrix.gen.nz>
From: spambait@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult NOT FOR EMAIL)
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 23:04:23 +1200
References: 
Lines: 12
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:66898 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:4986 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:11486 comp.sys.next.programmer:24317

MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) writes:
> CodeWarrior Latitude:
>
> -Is a porting tool which allows you to quickly move existing Mac OS 7.X
> applications to UNIX, and soon Rhapsody.

Will it work with MkLinux?

-- Bruce

--
s/spambait/bruce/ to email
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From: andreas@wb-net.de
Subject: Being notified when an new item in NSPopUpButton is selected
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)
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Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 13:29:02 GMT

Hello,

I want to to display employees {name, firstname} in a NSTableView that match 
a specific creteria (departmentId = ?). Assume the class employee has an 
attribute departementId and there's a table {departmentId, departmenName} in 
the database. I've connected a NSPopUpButton to the displayGroup of this 
table and selected departmentName to be displayed. Everytime I select a 
department in the NSPopUpButton I want to refresh the data displayed in the 
NSTableView to show only those employees who's departmentId matches that of 
the selected department.
However, I don't know wich notification or so I have to connect to the 
method, that reads out the selected departmentname, looks for the 
corresponding departmentId and sends a qualifier to the 
Employee-DisplayGroup. How do I find out when the user has selected a new 
item in the NSPopUpButton?

Andreas Hoeschler




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From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: fcntl/flock/lockf file locking in NS/OS?
Date: 9 May 1997 12:12:21 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
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Howdy!

I'd like to use file locking in NS (for the CAP implementation which at the 
moment completly ignores file locking), however it seems quite broken even in 
3.3. There is a NeXTAnswer that states fcntl() locking is broken and only 
returns EINVAL, using flock or lockf doesn't seem to work either. 

Now the man page of fcntl tells me something about the fcntl is POSIX 
specific. What should I do if my application cannot use POSIX and I need this 
functionality? (Please don't tell me I should compile using -posix, this 
produces binaries that seem to work but have very strange effects during 
runtime *~:])

- Frank

---
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net
* NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy
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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg |Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: CVS bundle for PB/Mach
Date: 6 May 1997 14:39:09 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 30
Message-ID: <5knfqd$9rt@concorde.ctp.com>
Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dhcppc99.dublin.ctp.com

Hey Folks!

I'm trying to start using the CVS bundle for PB/Mach. I set all defaults,  
environments etc, but still getting the message:
"SCM Error: Create New Work Area: SCMCommandErrorException: cvs checkout: No  
CVSROOT specified!  Please use the `-d' option
cvs [checkout aborted]: or set the CVSROOT environment variable."

Here the comment from the release notes:
"With the CVS Adaptor, you must have the CVSROOT environment variable set for  
Project Builder to inherit.  The repository path you specify when creating a  
new CVS work area (which is currently necessary to use the integration) must be  
relative to the CVSROOT path - it cannot be absolute."

I tried everything but nothing helps.

Any ideas?

Thanks 

-- georg --


--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev  
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:01:55 -0600
From: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com
Subject: [Q] Resources under next step
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <863189903.11075@dejanews.com>
Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
X-Article-Creation-Date: Fri May 09 14:58:24 1997 GMT
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On the MacOS applications have a resource fork to store predefined
data such as pictures, icons, strings and so on. I am told that
Openstep has something similar, if this is true could someone explain
to me how it works?

Also, can you take a tool, equivalent to ResEdit on the Mac, to an
application so that you can easily modify included data?

Thanks - Please email me a copy of your reply

Andre

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Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:01:29 -0600
From: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com
Subject: [Q] Is it possible to write a plug in object
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <863189617.10676@dejanews.com>
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I am wanting to create a program that can make use of plug-ins.
At the moment my plug-ins are in the form:

    function ( message : longint; data : ptr ) : result

Message contains the value of the operation that I want to perform and
the data is a pointer to a data structure containing the parameters.

What I would like to do ideally is to be able to have a class with
a number of methods, compile it and then let my program call the
appropriate methods. I might not be thinking about it the right way.
Any help on how to approach plug-ins in Openstep would be very much
appreciated.

Thanks - Please email me a copy of your reply

Andre

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From: boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: adressBooks - how to access by program?
Date: 6 May 1997 17:34:18 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
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hello olaf,

updating an entry in a WM addressbook goes by this:
(Example below appends a space character to the name of the address "Dupont, 
Jeanne")

void main(void)
{	id		speaker;
	int		rc,tst;

    [Application new];
	 speaker= [Speaker new];
	[speaker setSendPort: NXPortFromName("WM", NULL)];


	[speaker 
selectorRPC:"updateAddressOf:old:new:attributes:changeCount:"
                 			  paramTypes: "ccccI",
							  "/home/boehring/Lib
rary/Addresses/Example.addresses","Dupont, Jeanne","Dupont, Jeanne ","\"Full 
Name\" = \"Dr1 Jeanne Dupont\";\nEMail = \"jdupont@foo.com\";\n\"Home Phone\" 
= \"+33 (1) 12 34 56 03\";\n",&tst];
    [NXApp free];
    exit(0);
}

daniel
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From: juergen.albertsen@flensburg.netsurf.de (Juergen Albertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Link error on OpenStep/Windows NT : fatal error LNK1120
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 17:54:57 GMT
Organization: Private
Lines: 51
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On 6 May 1997 10:03:13 GMT, etienne@jupiter.univ-lr.fr (Etienne
Gourdon) wrote:

There's an error in the coammnd line used for linking:

>/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Executables/gcc 
>-LC:/Etienne/Situation/obj-i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5-opt  -win     -arch
>i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5 -o C:/Etienne/Situation/Situation.app/Situation.exe 
>C:/Etienne/Situation/obj-i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5-opt/Situation_main.o    
>C:/Etienne/Situation/obj-i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5-opt/appResources.o     
>-framework AppKit -framework CompleteAccess -framework CompleteAccessAppKit
>-framework CompleteAccessEditor -framework Foundation
>/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/libNSWinMain.a     

It should read -l/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/libNSWinMain.a, same
with the following errors after trying to link against *.lib files.

>LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
>"NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/libNSWinMain.a"; ignored
>LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
>"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/AppKit.framework/AppKit.lib"; ignored
>LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
>"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/CompleteAccess.framework/CompleteAccess.lib";
>ignored
>LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
>"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/CompleteAccessAppKit.framework/CompleteAccessAp
>pKit.lib"; ignored
>LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
>"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/CompleteAccessEditor.framework/CompleteAccessEd
>itor.lib"; ignored
>LINK : warning LNK4044: unrecognized option
>"NeXT/NextLibrary/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Foundation.lib"; ignored
>Situation_main.o : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol
>__imp__NSApplicationMain
>msvcrt.lib(crtexew.obj) : error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol
>_WinMain@16
>C:/Etienne/Situation/Situation.app/Situation.exe : fatal error LNK1120: 2
>unresolved externals
>gcc: Internal compiler error: program ld got fatal signal 127
>make: *** [C:/Etienne/Situation/Situation.app/Situation.exe] Error 1

Perhaps you modified some of the standard makefiles? Modifcations are
to made only in Makefile.preamble and Makefile.postable. You might
have to take a look at the makefiles in
/Next/NextDeveloper/Makefiles/pb_makefiles. There's a README or
something like that.

Hope that helps!

Juergen

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From: Dru Nelson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: fcntl/flock/lockf file locking in NS/OS?
Date: 9 May 1997 19:59:13 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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The last time I looked at this, I came away with the belief
that there was a problem doing record level locking
not file level locking.

Dru


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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSView ans subview
Date: 6 May 1997 19:14:02 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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Cc: yannick buisson

In <5kksfr$5mm@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr> yannick buisson wrote:

The button still has the DPS focus in its mouseDown: method.
Call your view switching code with performWithAfterDelay...

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From: John LaViola 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Driver debugging
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 14:23:36 -0400
Organization: Cardiopulmonary Corporation
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I'm having a problem debugging a 3.3 driver.  Can't get kattach to
connect master to slave.  Pinging the slave from the master works.  I've
read all the appropriate docs and seemingly followed all the proper
steps. 

Any ideas??

-- 
John LaViola

jlaviola@iconn.net
jlav@venturi.com
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From: Marcus -Sebastian Martens 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Q:ESS-1788 technical references?
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 02:36:54 +0200
Organization: Uni-Hamburg
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would like to programm this 16 bit soundcard directly so that I can get
a 16 bit output in dos! Who may help?
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From: jbader@neteffects.com (Jack Bader)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: *** Need NeXT developer in Minneapolis ***
Date: 10 May 1997 01:04:25 GMT
Organization: NetEffects Inc.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <5l0hip$8db$1@news1.inlink.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: iits02220.inlink.com
X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.92.6+

NetEffects Inc. has an immediate consulting position with its
telecommunications client in Minneapolis.  You will join a team of
Objective C developers developing and enhancing customer service 
applications.

Please contact us immediately for consideration.

Jack Bader
jbader@neteffects.com
314-727-1107
314-444-6866 fax
####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.portal.ca!news.bc.net!ali.bc.ca!nobody
From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: "performSelector: withObject: afterDelay:" method in NSObject
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 00:42:07 GMT
Lines: 8

Hi everybody,
Is there anyone who has ever successfully used the NSObject's method  
"performSelector: withObject: afterDelay:" in OS 4.1 for Mach?

It doesn't seem to perform anything in my case. I would be interested in  
any small code exapmle that successfully makes use of this method (in  
other words, tested.) Thanks a lot.
---gabriel
####################################################################
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Driver won't load at boot?
Message-ID: <1997May6.151000.97843@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 6 May 97 15:09:59 MDT
Reply-To: edx@cc.usu.edu
Distribution: world
Nntp-Posting-Host: asy28.xy1.usu.edu
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9 Beta(i)
Lines: 18

I've written a parallel port driver which supports bi-directional
data transfer.  It works wonderfully if I load it by hand using
"driverLoader d=Parallel".

However, I've used Configure.app to add it to my boot
drivers, and it doesn't load.  No errors, none of my debug
messages which should print out (and which -are- printed
if loaded by hand as described above) are getting into the
log file.  Aack!

Why isn't the system even trying to load my driver at
boot time, even though it's in /usr/Devices, and listed
in Configure.app?

HELP!

- Ernest

####################################################################
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From: inet97@ameritech.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: A GUARANTEED MONEY MAKER!!
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 04:55:03 PDT
Organization: Internet Communications Inc.
Lines: 173
Message-ID: <5l19n1$sck$4726@nntp0.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-max4-159.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net

                    E-Mail Your Way To Riches!

Dear Friend,

We all know E-mail is here to stay.  It's fun, easy and exciting! Would you be
interested if we could show you a way to make well over $1,000 per week doing it?

This is not a  joke. You may have seen many people trying to tell you that you
can make money by joining this or that scheme! Guess what, you decide to
go for it and then you get nothing but frustration and disappointment! We
are here to take your frustration and disappointment into an Electrifying
Adventure!

We have been marketing on-line for almost 2 years now! We have never spent
one red penny on advertising and made nothing but profits. We can show you
how to make money every day of the year. Many people may think this is untrue
or it just can't be done. We are here to tell you that it is absolutely not true. The
biggest mistake people make about marketing on-line is that they sit and wait
for people to contact them.  You will never make it if this is your approach and
we'll tell you why. There are over 60 MILLION people on-line right now, and
seven new people logging on every minute of the day world-wide and everyone
is offering something. So how do you get a potential client or a new customer
before your competition does? The answer is simply " Creative E-mailing" and
it WORKS! I'll tell you why.  You're taking your product, service or idea directly
to the market instead of waiting for the market to come to you!

Here are a few testimonials we'd like to share with you  ( They're all 100% TRUE! ):

Internet Communications, my wife and I owe you so much.  We ordered your
Creative E-mail System and within the first week we received over $1,150 in
orders for my Internet Consulting business!
                                        --Charles -- California

I have bought two so-called E-mail programs that cost me over $600.00 when
I received them.  They were extremely difficult to operate and it took me about
two weeks to figure them out.  Once I did, they were so time consuming it just
wasn't worth my time. When I received your course it took me about four
minutes to install and I was in business! Within the first 24 hours of my first
E-mailing I received over $580.00 in sales over the phone.  That first week I
grossed over $2,000.00!  I really can't believe how easy you made this,
anyone can do it! Thanks!
                                       --Dennis -- Illinios

Hello, I'm a divorced mother of two children. I wanted to thank you for helping
me out. This was my first time buying anything on the Internet. I was skeptical
at first but I figured I'd take a chance. This was the best chance I've ever took!
My part-time business is now a full-time home-business, thanks to your
Creative E-mail System. I had to hire my two family members to help me out!
This is GREAT, thanks so much! I'd recommend this for anyone!
                                       --Ellen -- Florida

You may have seen other people offering products "E-mail Programs, E-mail
Addresses, Extractors, Etc." The vast majority of these products are very
over-priced and very difficult to even use. None of them even supply you
with current, up-to-date, FRESH & RESPONSIVE E-mail addresses! Our
Creative E-mail System puts everything into one package to make your
profits soar immediately! Even if you do not have a product or service to offer,
we are going to give you over 500 how-to reports that you will have full reprint
rights to! What makes our course different from anything else being offered
anywhere is that we're dedicated to your success! We do not succeed unless
you succeed! All of our E-mail Address Databases are created in house. We
do not trade our databases with anyone because people are selling extremely
bad lists on the Internet. Many of other people's databases are filled with
duplicate addresses and many of them are undeliverable. We keep our own
database so we know exactly what we have and we keep nothing but the best.
There's no other way. We believe in producing high quality products that
should be priced reasonably for your success! Read on to see the special
bonuses you will receive. 

                   ******** SPECIAL 10 DAY BONUS ********

If you order within the next 10 days we will include:

1) 500 How-To Reports   ( You may resell these at any price )

2) Your Personal Complete Guide To The Internet -- This 175 page e-book covers
every single aspect of the internet. You will never have to buy another internet
book! When you complete this book, you will know more about the internet
than 90% of the people online right now.

3) When you purchase our 8 MILLION SUPER responsive E-mail list we will
include Mega-Mailer.  It sends 250,000 E-mails per hour! All other orders will
receive Pegasus Mail.  It mails about 30,000 per hour.

Here's how to get the Creative E-Mail System: 

All orders are delivered on CD-ROM or 100mb Zip Disk ( Iomega ).

               ============> E-Mail Databases <================

                2 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $ 99.95 
                4 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $179.95 
                6 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $249.95 
                8 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $299.95 

You will be sending your Marketing Letter to 2, 4, 6 or 8 MILLION People!  To
mail to 2 MILLION People by U.S. Mail at $.32 per stamp would cost
$640,000.00, not including envelopes or paper! The price of 2 MILLION E-mail
Addresses isn't even a fraction of the cost. And the great thing is that if you
have 10 products, you can E-mail to your list as many times as you want to!
Your profits will never stop soaring! Don't pay someone else to send your
advertisement out, do it yourself and save big money! The average cost right
now to send your ad one time to ONE MILLION people is $1,400.00. You can
send it 100 times to EIGHT MILLION people for only $299.95 and that
includes Mega-Mailer that sends 250,000 per hour!

               ===============> Order Form <===============

Yes, Internet Communications Inc., I wish to take you up on your SPECIAL
10 DAY OFFER FOR YOUR CREATIVE E-MAIL SYSTEM, INCLUDING
THE TWO SPECIAL BONUSES: "Complete Internet Guide Book" and "500
How-To-Reports".  I understand I have to completely fill out the order form
so you can fulfill my order. 


Name:______________________________________

Address:____________________________________

City:_______________________________________

State:_______________________________________

Zip Code:____________________________________

Country:____________________________________

E-mail Address:_______________________________

Phone Number:_______________________________

I wish to pay by:      ( Check One )

Check:____ Money Order:_____

( Check One )

2 Million______ 4 Million______ 6 Million______ 8 Million_______
*Remember the 8 MILLION Includes Mega-Mailer!

Zip Disk:______ CD-ROM:______Total:_______________

Pegasus Mail  ( WIN 3.1 )  ( WIN 95 )  ( MAC )  (Circle One )

=============================================================



          We Accept Checks By Fax Simply Tape Your Check Here With
          The Above Order Form And Fax It To: 1-216-895-1930

   If you have any questions please call customer service at: 1-216-895-1919

                  Fax: 1-216-895-1930    Phone: 1-216-895-1919

=============================================================

Make check or money order payable to:  Internet Communications

                 Mail check or Money Order to: 

                 Internet Communications 
              30628 Detroit Ave.  Suite 295
                  Westlake, Ohio 44145 

The entire contents of this message are copyrighted and protected by both
United States copyright laws and international treaty provisions. None of
the text in this message may ever be reproduced, in original or modified
form, for commercial purposes, without express written permission by Internet
Communications Inc.. We do authorize and encourage the forwarding of
this message to interested parties, for the purpose of informing them of
Internet Communications Inc. services.

####################################################################
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From: "Jean R. Moreau, Jr." 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: financial software
Date: Wed, 07 May 1997 00:58:01 -0400
Organization: Harvard University
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <33700BD8.EAB9723C@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: moreau@fas.harvard.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: moreau.student.harvard.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
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X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b3 [en] (Win95; I)
X-Priority: 3 (Normal)

Can anyone steer me to any references that focus on programming
financially oriented applications? In particular, I'd like to develop
some intuition about how to deal with financial products as objects.

Thanks!

Jean

####################################################################
From: tripod@camera
Subject: sun photo
Organization: color,enlargement,print,lab
Message-ID: 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 05:18:31 -0400
Lines: 27
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!news-peer.sprintlink.net!Sprint!news-pull.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!graylady.usa1.com


Hi, we'll get right to the point. We operate one of the finest 
quality custom color labs in the USA. To introduce you to our 
service we're offering the following Internet enlargement special:

Your color negatives hand printed on Kodak Supra Professional 
16x20 inch paper. All negatives printed full frame. 
Exhibition quality and color corrected---send us any size color 
negative (35mm up to 4x5 inches).

*     *     *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *
16 x 20 inch color enlargement special
  5 identical prints from same negative-------$79
10 identical prints from same negative------$129
*     *     *      *      *      *      *      *      *      *   

Most orders 1 to 2 days in the lab. Add $6 priority mail shipping; 
international add $10. We accept Visa and Mastercharge.

Mail your negative(s) and payment to:

TSP CUSTOM LAB
P.O. Box 248
Lake Village, IN 46349 USA
phone 219-992-2413   fax 219-992-2644

visit our website http://www.centralcontrolsystems.com/saylordesign/photo/prolab.htm






####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CVS bundle for PB/Mach
Message-ID: <1997May6.172720.604@tennis.opus1.com>
From: dkoski@gorgatron.running-start.com (David Koski)
Date: 6 May 97 17:27:20 -0700
References: <5knfqd$9rt@concorde.ctp.com>
Organization: Running Start, Inc.
Nntp-Posting-Host: gorgatron.running-start.com
Lines: 31
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!news.muc.de!news.space.net!news.touch.net!news.infostar.de!news2.planetc.com!news.planetc.com!newsfeed2!gryphon.phoenix.net!insync!news.io.com!smartdna!news.radio.cz!europa.clark.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!rtd.com!opus1.com!gorgatron!dkoski

In article <5knfqd$9rt@concorde.ctp.com>,
Georg |Tuparev  wrote:
>I'm trying to start using the CVS bundle for PB/Mach. I set all defaults,  
>environments etc, but still getting the message:
>"SCM Error: Create New Work Area: SCMCommandErrorException: cvs checkout: No  
>CVSROOT specified!  Please use the `-d' option
>cvs [checkout aborted]: or set the CVSROOT environment variable."

The trick is to run it from the command line:

/NextDeveloper/Apps/ProjectBuilder.app/ProjectBuilder &

This way it inherits the CVSROOT environment variable from your shell
(where you presumably have it set).  The release notes are talking about
NT where there is a panel that you can use to set system wide environment
variables.

Hope this helps,

dk

----
David Koski
Running Start, Inc.
dkoski@running-start.com
http://www.running-start.com
-- 
David Koski
Running Start, Inc.
dkoski@running-start.com
http://www.running-start.com
####################################################################
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From: inet97@ameritech.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 04:55:03 PDT
Message-ID: 
Subject: cmsg cancel <5l19n1$sck$4726@nntp0.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net>
Control: cancel <5l19n1$sck$4726@nntp0.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net>
Organization: Usenet Canal Historique
Approved: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr
X-Cancelled-By: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
X-Newsposter: cancel-spam version 1.22
X-No-Archive: yes
Lines: 9

ECP/EMP aka SPAM or pyramidal scheme (MMF) cancelled by bofh@keltia.freenix.fr
It may also be an image too small for newsbot to be activated.
See report in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

Date: Sat May 10 15:07:34 1997

Original subject was:
A GUARANTEED MONEY MAKER!!

####################################################################
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From: stefan@ping.at (Stefan Schneider)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help: 2-byte fonts in NS 3.3
Date: 10 May 1997 16:52:33 GMT
Organization: Customer of EUnet/PING Austria
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <5l294h$dc3$1@news.Austria.EU.net>
Reply-To: stefan@ping.at
NNTP-Posting-Host: a018.dynamic.vienna.at.eu.net
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00121-01

What does it take an app to process documents with 2-byte fonts
like Kanji or Kai-Su?

Specifically, I'm reading in an RTF doc using an object of the
NEXTSTEP 3.3 Text class, then evaluate the doc by taking that
Text object apart, and convert the doc's contents to HTML.

What will I have to do in order to read and evaluate docs with
2-byte fonts as well? Is there some library I can link my app
against? Any URL on that subject that is a good starting point?

Thanks,

- Stefan


-- 
Stefan Schneider Software
Dipl.Ing. Stefan Schneider
Lerchenfelder St. 85/6
A-1070 Vienna, Austria, Europe
voice/fax: +43-1-523-5834
e-mail: stefan@ping.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME welcome)
web: http://members.ping.at/stefan/

####################################################################
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From: stefan@ping.at (Stefan Schneider)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Private to Todd Nathan
Date: 10 May 1997 17:10:27 GMT
Organization: Customer of EUnet/PING Austria
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5l2a63$e4c$1@news.Austria.EU.net>
References: <5kt26q$2gl@shelob.afs.com>
Reply-To: stefan@ping.at
NNTP-Posting-Host: a018.dynamic.vienna.at.eu.net
In-Reply-To: <5kt26q$2gl@shelob.afs.com>
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00121-01
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24337 comp.sys.next.software:29461

On 05/08/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>Todd, you contacted AFS about beta testing, but your email return 
address 
> is unreachable. Please contact me 
with 
>another alternative. Thanks.

Me too, please, concerning LBII promotion issues.

Thanks,

- Stefan


-- 
Stefan Schneider Software
Dipl.Ing. Stefan Schneider
Lerchenfelder St. 85/6
A-1070 Vienna, Austria, Europe
voice/fax: +43-1-523-5834
e-mail: stefan@ping.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME welcome)
web: http://members.ping.at/stefan/

####################################################################
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From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [ANN] WWDC Preview of CW Latitude
Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 13:28:43 -0400
Organization: Metrowerks
Lines: 13
Message-ID: 
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: aumi3-a08.ccm.tds.net
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:67004 comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant:5004 comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools:11499 comp.sys.next.programmer:24338

In article ,
fraktus@arkaos.be (FraKtus) wrote:
 
>Will this include a compliler targeting SGI processors ? Which ones ?
 
All I have notes on is SGI IRIX.  Drop me a note with specifics after next
week and I'll know more or be able to say more.

Ron

-- 
     METROWERKS                                   Ron Liechty
 http://www.metrowerks.com     MWRon@metrowerks.com
####################################################################
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From: inet97@ameritech.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Make Money With Your Computer!
Date: Mon, 05 May 1997 17:09:50 PDT
Organization: Internet Communications Inc.
Lines: 173
Message-ID: <5l2koi$ipl$4739@nntp0.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: dyn-max4-159.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net

                    E-Mail Your Way To Riches!

Dear Friend,

We all know E-mail is here to stay.  It's fun, easy and exciting! Would you be
interested if we could show you a way to make well over $1,000 per week doing it?

This is not a  joke. You may have seen many people trying to tell you that you
can make money by joining this or that scheme! Guess what, you decide to
go for it and then you get nothing but frustration and disappointment! We
are here to take your frustration and disappointment into an Electrifying
Adventure!

We have been marketing on-line for almost 2 years now! We have never spent
one red penny on advertising and made nothing but profits. We can show you
how to make money every day of the year. Many people may think this is untrue
or it just can't be done. We are here to tell you that it is absolutely not true. The
biggest mistake people make about marketing on-line is that they sit and wait
for people to contact them.  You will never make it if this is your approach and
we'll tell you why. There are over 60 MILLION people on-line right now, and
seven new people logging on every minute of the day world-wide and everyone
is offering something. So how do you get a potential client or a new customer
before your competition does? The answer is simply " Creative E-mailing" and
it WORKS! I'll tell you why.  You're taking your product, service or idea directly
to the market instead of waiting for the market to come to you!

Here are a few testimonials we'd like to share with you  ( They're all 100% TRUE! ):

Internet Communications, my wife and I owe you so much.  We ordered your
Creative E-mail System and within the first week we received over $1,150 in
orders for my Internet Consulting business!
                                        --Charles -- California

I have bought two so-called E-mail programs that cost me over $600.00 when
I received them.  They were extremely difficult to operate and it took me about
two weeks to figure them out.  Once I did, they were so time consuming it just
wasn't worth my time. When I received your course it took me about four
minutes to install and I was in business! Within the first 24 hours of my first
E-mailing I received over $580.00 in sales over the phone.  That first week I
grossed over $2,000.00!  I really can't believe how easy you made this,
anyone can do it! Thanks!
                                       --Dennis -- Illinios

Hello, I'm a divorced mother of two children. I wanted to thank you for helping
me out. This was my first time buying anything on the Internet. I was skeptical
at first but I figured I'd take a chance. This was the best chance I've ever took!
My part-time business is now a full-time home-business, thanks to your
Creative E-mail System. I had to hire my two family members to help me out!
This is GREAT, thanks so much! I'd recommend this for anyone!
                                       --Ellen -- Florida

You may have seen other people offering products "E-mail Programs, E-mail
Addresses, Extractors, Etc." The vast majority of these products are very
over-priced and very difficult to even use. None of them even supply you
with current, up-to-date, FRESH & RESPONSIVE E-mail addresses! Our
Creative E-mail System puts everything into one package to make your
profits soar immediately! Even if you do not have a product or service to offer,
we are going to give you over 500 how-to reports that you will have full reprint
rights to! What makes our course different from anything else being offered
anywhere is that we're dedicated to your success! We do not succeed unless
you succeed! All of our E-mail Address Databases are created in house. We
do not trade our databases with anyone because people are selling extremely
bad lists on the Internet. Many of other people's databases are filled with
duplicate addresses and many of them are undeliverable. We keep our own
database so we know exactly what we have and we keep nothing but the best.
There's no other way. We believe in producing high quality products that
should be priced reasonably for your success! Read on to see the special
bonuses you will receive. 

                   ******** SPECIAL 10 DAY BONUS ********

If you order within the next 10 days we will include:

1) 500 How-To Reports   ( You may resell these at any price )

2) Your Personal Complete Guide To The Internet -- This 175 page e-book covers
every single aspect of the internet. You will never have to buy another internet
book! When you complete this book, you will know more about the internet
than 90% of the people online right now.

3) When you purchase our 8 MILLION SUPER responsive E-mail list we will
include Mega-Mailer.  It sends 250,000 E-mails per hour! All other orders will
receive Pegasus Mail.  It mails about 30,000 per hour.

Here's how to get the Creative E-Mail System: 

All orders are delivered on CD-ROM or 100mb Zip Disk ( Iomega ).

               ============> E-Mail Databases <================

                2 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $ 99.95 
                4 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $179.95 
                6 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $249.95 
                8 Million FRESH E-mail Addresses only $299.95 

You will be sending your Marketing Letter to 2, 4, 6 or 8 MILLION People!  To
mail to 2 MILLION People by U.S. Mail at $.32 per stamp would cost
$640,000.00, not including envelopes or paper! The price of 2 MILLION E-mail
Addresses isn't even a fraction of the cost. And the great thing is that if you
have 10 products, you can E-mail to your list as many times as you want to!
Your profits will never stop soaring! Don't pay someone else to send your
advertisement out, do it yourself and save big money! The average cost right
now to send your ad one time to ONE MILLION people is $1,400.00. You can
send it 100 times to EIGHT MILLION people for only $299.95 and that
includes Mega-Mailer that sends 250,000 per hour!

               ===============> Order Form <===============

Yes, Internet Communications Inc., I wish to take you up on your SPECIAL
10 DAY OFFER FOR YOUR CREATIVE E-MAIL SYSTEM, INCLUDING
THE TWO SPECIAL BONUSES: "Complete Internet Guide Book" and "500
How-To-Reports".  I understand I have to completely fill out the order form
so you can fulfill my order. 


Name:______________________________________

Address:____________________________________

City:_______________________________________

State:_______________________________________

Zip Code:____________________________________

Country:____________________________________

E-mail Address:_______________________________

Phone Number:_______________________________

I wish to pay by:      ( Check One )

Check:____ Money Order:_____

( Check One )

2 Million______ 4 Million______ 6 Million______ 8 Million_______
*Remember the 8 MILLION Includes Mega-Mailer!

Zip Disk:______ CD-ROM:______Total:_______________

Pegasus Mail  ( WIN 3.1 )  ( WIN 95 )  ( MAC )  (Circle One )

=============================================================



          We Accept Checks By Fax Simply Tape Your Check Here With
          The Above Order Form And Fax It To: 1-216-895-1930

   If you have any questions please call customer service at: 1-216-895-1919

                  Fax: 1-216-895-1930    Phone: 1-216-895-1919

=============================================================

Make check or money order payable to:  Internet Communications

                 Mail check or Money Order to: 

                 Internet Communications 
              30628 Detroit Ave.  Suite 295
                  Westlake, Ohio 44145 

The entire contents of this message are copyrighted and protected by both
United States copyright laws and international treaty provisions. None of
the text in this message may ever be reproduced, in original or modified
form, for commercial purposes, without express written permission by Internet
Communications Inc.. We do authorize and encourage the forwarding of
this message to interested parties, for the purpose of informing them of
Internet Communications Inc. services.

####################################################################
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From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel 
Date: 10 May 1997 19:31:40 GMT
Control: cancel 
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5l2koi$ipl$4739@nntp0.cleveland.oh.ameritech.net>
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From: Duncan
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: FREE at home bussiness
Date: 10 May 1997 21:10:13 GMT
Organization: FCI
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <5l2o7l$sjq@lal.interserv.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hdn109-014.hil.compuserve.com

This is truly a great opportunity. With a little work, you can make a LOT of money!!!!
http://freedomstarr.com/?GR9021010
for details. Just do it!!!

**********************************************************************
This message has been sent using DYNAMIC MAIL.  For more Information 
and Free Demo: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/concorde/index.html 
**********************************************************************

####################################################################
Date: 11 May 1997 01:03:30 GMT
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <851862718425@digifix.com>
Date: 11 May 1997 03:58:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:67523 comp.sys.next.announce:4186 comp.sys.next.hardware:28743 comp.sys.next.software:29470 comp.sys.next.misc:25796 comp.sys.next.sysadmin:26656 comp.sys.next.bugs:4305 comp.sys.next.programmer:24341


Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news-paris.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!globalip.ch!news.worldcom.ch!usenet
From: dschoen (D.Schoenenberger)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: how to compile GNU gcc on next 68040 ?
Date: 10 May 1997 11:26:10 GMT
Organization: WorldCom
Lines: 22
Distribution: worldwide
Message-ID: <5l1m0i$jp5@news.worldcom.ch>
Reply-To: dschoen@worldcom.ch
NNTP-Posting-Host: portls23.worldcom.ch
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9 Beta(n)

Does anybody already sucessed in compiling gnu gcc on black hardware ?
(I have Openstep 4.1)
These first command were successfully done:
./configure
gnumake 
gnumake stage1

but the following command give me the following error:

gnumake CC="stage1/xgcc -Bstage1/" CFLAGS="-g -O2"
.
.
stage1/xgcc -Bstage1/ -c  -DIN_GCC   -g -O2      -I. -I. -I./config rtl.c
stage1/xgcc -Bstage1/  -DIN_GCC   -g -O2    -o genattr \
 genattr.o rtl.o ` case "obstack.o" in ?*) echo obstack.o ;; esac ` ` case "" 
in ?*) echo  ;; esac ` ` case "" in ?*) echo  ;; esac ` 
/bin/ld: warning archive library: stage1/libgcc.a appears after reference to 
dynamic shared library and will be searched as a dynamic shared library 
./genattr ./config/m68k/m68k.md > tmp-attr.h
/bin/sh: 8961 Bus error
gnumake: *** [stamp-attr] Error 138

####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!newsfeed.nacamar.de!blackbush.xlink.net!ka.sub.net!nextone!nitezki
From: Nitezki@NiDat.sub.org (Peter Nitezki)
Subject: Re: Help: 2-byte fonts in NS 3.3
Message-ID: 
Sender: nitezki@nidat.sub.org (Peter Nitezki)
Reply-To: Peter.Nitezki@bku.db.de
Organization: private site of Peter Nitezki, Kraichtal, Germany
References: <5l294h$dc3$1@news.Austria.EU.net>
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:22:00 GMT
Lines: 32

In article <5l294h$dc3$1@news.Austria.EU.net> stefan@ping.at (Stefan  
Schneider) writes:
> What does it take an app to process documents with 2-byte fonts
> like Kanji or Kai-Su?
> 
> Specifically, I'm reading in an RTF doc using an object of the
> NEXTSTEP 3.3 Text class, then evaluate the doc by taking that
> Text object apart, and convert the doc's contents to HTML.
> 
> What will I have to do in order to read and evaluate docs with
> 2-byte fonts as well? Is there some library I can link my app
> against? Any URL on that subject that is a good starting point?
> 
The only code I know using KaiSu is PinJinEdit.app.  Since it is on the  
Net, the source code could be a starter...

-- 
Stefan Schneider Software
Dipl.Ing. Stefan Schneider
Lerchenfelder St. 85/6
A-1070 Vienna, Austria, Europe
voice/fax: +43-1-523-5834
e-mail: stefan@ping.at (NeXTMail preferred, MIME welcome)
web: http://members.ping.at/stefan/



--
Peter Nitezki      | Nitezki@NiDat.sub.org # Blessed art thou who knoweth
Staarenbergstr. 44 | Tel.:  +49 7251 62495 # not about the pleasure and
D-76703 Kraichtal  | Fax :  +49 7251 69215 # delight of being hooked
GERMANY            | E-mail defunct, sorry # up to the Net. Peter 1,3-5
####################################################################
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From: Koplien@vnet.IBM.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Driver won't load at boot?
Date: Wed, 07 May 97 08:14:14
Organization: IBM Development Lab. Boeblingen, Germany
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <5kp6jn$p0u$1@lds36.hw.boeblingen.ibm.com>
References: <1997May6.151000.97843@cc.usu.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fritz.hw.boeblingen.ibm.com
X-Newsreader: IBM-WebExplorer-DLL

Really  no output?
I have a simliar problem with the original driver. (All goes fine if the printer is present
at boot time) It may depends on the availability of the device behind the parallel port at
boot time.
Henry
####################################################################
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: DPS & GX benchmarks and GXUnionShape
Date: 8 May 1997 16:34:43 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5ksvb3$f8u1@castor.cca.rockwell.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: palmer.cca.rockwell.com
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9 Beta(s)
Cc: english@primenet.com
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:67581 comp.sys.next.programmer:24345 comp.sys.mac.advocacy:218694 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:22352

>"If the current clipping path is the result of application of the "clip" or
>"eoclip" operator, the path set by clippath is generally suitable only for
>filling or clipping. It is not suitable for stroking because it may contain
>interior segments or disconnected subpaths produced by the clipping
>process." Red Book, 2nd ed, p 374.
>

There is some misunderstanding.  DPS is doing what you want it to do.  The 
key is "the path set by clippath" is unsuitable for stroking.  The other 
paths that are stroked work exactly correctly.  All this is saying is that 
you do not want to 1) save a path 2) clip to the path followed by 3) stroke 
the same path.  1) clip to a path 2) stroke some other (even identical) path 
is ok.


Look at the output from the DPS test case.  It should look correct.

I would also add that we are still comparing APIs that exist at different 
levels.  DPS is to AppKit as assembly language is to ADA.  There are not that 
many assembly programmers and there are not that many DPS programmers.  GX 
exists to help compensate for the lack of a consistent object model in Apple 
legacy systems.  GX is more appropriately compared to the AppKit.


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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Driver debugging
Message-ID: <1997May8.085044.97938@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 8 May 97 08:50:44 MDT
Reply-To: edx@cc.usu.edu
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In <33713616.28D2@iconn.net> John LaViola wrote:
> If anyone cares, I found out the following:
> 
> You need to run: arp -f target_name ethernet_address 
> to establish the network connect for remote debug.  
> 
> Not in any documentation I've ever seen!
> 

Actually this is documented.  Not exactly where I would 
expect to find it though.  You can find this information in
the file:

/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/Examples/DriverKit/TestDriver/README.rtf
under the "Troubleshooting" section at the end.

Here's the relevant excerpt:

> GDB won't attach to the slave computer.
> 	The network entry for the slave has expired.  To update the network 
> entry, exit GDB as described below, and use the ping command as
> described in step 3 of the debugging section.  You can retain the network
> entry until the master reboots by using the arp command, as follows:
>
> master# arp slave
> slave (129.18.2.98) at 0:aa:0:18:5c:3d
> master# arp -s slave 0:aa:0:18:5c:3d


It would be nice to have these things in more visible places.

Good luck with your driver.  It's good to see someone still actually doing some
programming on this platform.



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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Private to Todd Nathan
Date: 8 May 1997 17:23:38 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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Todd, you contacted AFS about beta testing, but your email return address 
 is unreachable. Please contact me with 
another alternative. Thanks.

--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: DPS & GX benchmarks and GXUnionShape
Date: 8 May 1997 12:56:01 -0700
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Erik M. Buck  said:
> 
> >"If the current clipping path is the result of application of the "clip"
or
> >"eoclip" operator, the path set by clippath is generally suitable only
for
> >filling or clipping. It is not suitable for stroking because it may
contain
> >interior segments or disconnected subpaths produced by the clipping
> >process." Red Book, 2nd ed, p 374.
> >
> 
> There is some misunderstanding.  DPS is doing what you want it to do. 
The 
> key is "the path set by clippath" is unsuitable for stroking.  The other 
> paths that are stroked work exactly correctly.  All this is saying is
that 
> you do not want to 1) save a path 2) clip to the path followed by 3)
stroke 
> the same path.  1) clip to a path 2) stroke some other (even identical)
path 
> is ok.
> 
> 
> Look at the output from the DPS test case.  It should look correct.
> 

No doubt. However, both Marcel and I were doing a clip derrived from
combining successively larger instances of the same string of text. My
method, using GXUnionShape, was too slow for what I wanted to do, which was
real-time graphics. Marcel's solution was FAR speedier than mine. I wanted
to know why. 

THe answer is simple: GXUnionSHape on two solid-fill shapes does a LOT more
work than what I needed. Eric King's answer was to create a bitmap shape,
render into it, and use it as the clip shape. My alternative solution
(append the geometry to the original clip) would be less useful  because
I'd have to worry about odd-even fills and so on if I just appended a
series of geometric points to the original clip-shape.


> I would also add that we are still comparing APIs that exist at different

> levels.  DPS is to AppKit as assembly language is to ADA.  There are not
> that 
> many assembly programmers and there are not that many DPS
> programmers.  GX 
> exists to help compensate for the lack of a consistent object model in
> Apple 
> legacy systems.  GX is more appropriately compared to the AppKit.


People keep on saying this and it just isn't true. The AppKit lacks at
least two things that GX has:

1) no retained mode database of graphical objects.

2) no set of graphic primitives that can take advantage of all the
retained-mode geographic info stored in the GX database.

Even if you implemented a shape-database in the APpKit, it would still lack
(2) because DPS doesn't know about anything but user-paths and
dictionairies, neither of which store things like calculations used in
performing clips/transforms/etc, and which certainly don't store compressed
bitmap images unless we're talking about text. GX can store bitmaps for ANY
kind of shape -point, line, rect, polygon, curve, path, bitmap (obviously)
or even picture (combination of other shapes, including other pictures).


And, as it stands right now, the AppKit + DPS combo still lacks a
"GXUnionShape" function suitable for *drawing* instead of just clipping.

With GX, I take two shapes of any arbitrary complexity (except
bitmap-shapes and picture-shapes) with solid fills and can perform the
following geometric operations:

Union -will produce a single shape whose geometry defines the combined
drawn areas of the two original shapes. If I change its fill to close-frame
and redraw, there will be no extraneous interior
points/paths/curves/whatevers.

What's the DPS+ AppKit or DPS-only equivalent?

Intersection -Will produce a single shape whose geometry defines the
intersection of both original shapes. If you redraw using a frame-fill,
you'll find no extraneous interior points.

Difference -Will produce a single shape whose geometry defines the result
of subtracting the area of the second from the area of the first. Redrawn
with frame-fill, there's no extraneous points.

ReverseDifference -As above but reverse the order of the two shapes. No
extraneous points.

Exclude -does an exclusive-OR on the geometries of the two shapes. Unless
the Reduce & Simplify operations affect things, the geometries of the two
original shapes are still present.

Invert -Creates a new geometry whose area is the area not covered by the
original shape. I have not idea what this looks like, geometry-data-wise.


This last is very useful in the GX HyperCard stack. It means that I can
create a shape which is the union of all card fields and button fields of a
given card, invert it, and use THAT as the clip-shape for the default
ViewPort.

This means that anything drawn into the HC card window via GX appears to be
*behind* all the buttons and fields, and makes it seem that the drawing is
part of the background layer of HyperCard.

Since you can play a QuickTime movie into a GX bitmap shape, this means
that HyperCard windows can have live backgrounds. Cool, huh? 

I'm sure that HC 3.0 will have far more than this, QuickTIme-wise, since
HyperTalk has been extended in 3.0 to be the control language for
QuickTime, but I'm talking about 2.x, which is what everyone in the world
is using and will be using for a while yet. 


Getting back to the original point, GXUnionShape and its brethren are NOT
duplicated in teh AppKit, and while Marcel's clip-example worked better for
what I was doing than GXUnionShape, I have other options to try (timings
will be reported).

I've yet to see anyone give a credible equivalent of GXUnionShape, letalone
GXExcludeShape, using DPS. I'm sure that they're possible, but just not as
trivial as everyone wants us non-DPS-programmers to believe.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Windows: Tumor-causing, teeth-staining, smelly, puking habit.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------




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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Anyone use NuMega BoundsChecker on NT with OPENSTEP apps?
Date: 8 May 1997 20:42:21 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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I'd be interested to hear about anyone who has attempted to use NuMega 
BoundsChecker to error check OpenStep applications.

Thanks,

Chuck

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Wolf's WWDC Report - Day 0
Date: 12 May 1997 08:22:50 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 107
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I'm attending Apple's WWDC this year so I figured I'd try to write up a 
day-by-day show report when I get home each evening.

The convention hasn't started yet but I was able to stop by the Convention Center 
today and complete the registration process before the rush next week.  I heard 
one of the show staff say they had about 3000 people pre-registered and were 
expecting a fair amount of walk-in registrations.

In addition to the show badge ("Any developer losing their badge will be charged 
full conference registration fees for a replacement" - ouch!) and t-shirt 
registrants received a clear plastic back-pack stuffed full of goodies:

1) Prelude to Rhapsody including:
	a) OpenStep Enterprise CD 4.2PR2 (for Windows)
	b) OpenStep Mach User CD 4.2PR2
	c) OpenStep Mach Developer CD 4.2PR2
	d) A certificate for the WebObjects 3.1 CD available on Wed.
	d) Discovering OpenStep: A Tutorial book
	e) Installing and Configuring OpenStep book
	f) OpenStep User Interface Tips: A Prelude to Rhapsody book
	g) Getting Started with WebObjects book
	h) OpenStep 4.2 for Mach device driver and boot floppies

The copyright notices on the CDs and books all say Apple computer and the books 
all have Prelude to Rhapsody stickers on their cover.  The NeXT logo still 
appears on the books and CD's.  

There's an interesting cover-sheet explaining why Apple is distributing OpenStep 
4.2 as the Prelude to Rhapsody.  They mention the comp.sys.next groups as a good 
source of help and urge NeXT and Apple developers to cooperate.   They also 
stress that this is a development license, not a deployment license.

I used the Upgrader.app to upgrade my development machine from 4.1 to 4.2 and it 
all went smoothly.  Haven't played with it much yet but the color syntax 
highlighting in Project Builder is pretty nice (although the default color scheme  
was a bit too gaudy for my tastes - tweaking prefs fixed that pretty quickly.)   
Indexing seems a faster.  Haven't used it enough to assess stability.  

There's new release notes about the Configuration Management bundles which can be 
added to PB and it ships with a bundle which provides a GUI interface to the PD 
CVS tools.  I need to grab the CVS command line tools off the net before I can 
try it though but if it works as advertised should be neat.  I wish VNP or Sun 
would do a bundle providing an interface to their DevMan product.

Hmm enough about that for now... on to the rest of the contents of the magic 
sack:

2) The Apple WWDC Conference Guide 

Mostly the same info about schedules and such that has been available on the web 
for a while.   One interesting thing which caught my eye - there was an ad from 
PowerComputing who will be exhibiting at the show implying that they offered 
special developer pricing.  I've been taking a close look at their PowerCenter 
and PowerTower machines so plan on stopping by their booth and getting the scoop 
on that.  Motorola also had info about their developer discount program for their 
StarMax series of Mac compatibles.

3) The WWDC CD

Haven't taken a look at this yet but it claims to include Rhapsody (OpenStep) 
documentation.

4) MacTech magazine May 1997 issue

This seems like a decent magazine - not  too much fluff, lots of content.  They 
had a LOT of OpenStep information - it seemed about 50% of the mag was deveoted 
to OpenStep tutorials.   Needs a bit better editing since just glancing through I 
spotted a couple of mistakes in the Obj-C examples.  

5) A Press Release from Stone Design announcing Create HTML 

"Stone Design, a longtime leader in the NeXT/OpenStep marketplace, announced 
Create HTML for Rhapsody today.  Create is a full featured DTP and Web 
Pubvlishing application that has been shipping for 8 years.  The HTML version of 
Create will run on Apple's new operating system code named "Rhapsody" as well as 
OpenStep for Windows 95 and NT, OpenStep for Mach and Openstep for SOLARIS...."   
More details at www.stone.com - I don't feel like typing the whole press release 
right now :-)

6) A free evaluation license key for the OpenBase SQL database which runs on 
OpenStep.  (You need to download the actual software from their web site.)  This 
sounds like an excellent option for developers who need an inexpensive database 
backend to explore EOF and WebObjects.

7) A bunch of other promotional material for hardware, software and services most 
related to MacOS and of little interest to me and a bunch of free software for 
the MacOS including:

Adobe SDK Sampler
Internet Developer Resource Kit CD
Java Solutions for the MacOS CD
FileCrypt floppy

Anyways, it looks like it should be an exciting week.  Will attempt to write more 
on Tuesday (I won't be attending the marketting sessions on Monday.)   

- Chris

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: fraktus@arkaos.be (FraKtus)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.oop.powerplant,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [ANN] WWDC Preview of CW Latitude
Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 10:01:21 +0100
Organization: ArKaos
Lines: 20
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In article ,
MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote:


> 
> CodeWarrior Latitude:
> 

Could we have more informations about prices ?

Will this include a compliler targeting SGI processors ? Which ones ?

Thank you,

-----------------------------------------------
Marco Hinic (fraktus@arkaos.be)
     ArKaos engine architect
          The world's first visual synthesizer
               http://www.arkaos.be
-----------------------------------------------
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From: oschirr@abm12.abm.de (Oliver Schirrmeister)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: matrix problem
Date: 12 May 1997 12:37:08 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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Hi,

I want to override the textDidEnd:endChar method of Matrix because I want to
interpret more characters than just Return and Tab. 
The problem is that the changes in the TextFieldCell (that was currently 
selected)
 are lost when I select a new cell. My textDidEnd:endChar method looks like 
this:

- textDidEnd:textObject endChar:(unsigned short)whyEnd
 {
     id    theCell;

    theCell = [self selectedCell];
    [theCell endEditing:textObject]; 

    ... code to determine the next cell (sets nextRow and nextCol)

    [self selectCellAt: nextRow: nextCol];

    return self;
}    

I think that I forget to send some message to the cell, matrix or another 
object to
keep the changes.

If I call 
[super textDidEnd: textObject endChar: whyEnd];
at the beginning of the method and then select my next cell the changes are
not lost. But then the cursor first jumps to the cell 'super ' selected 
and then to the cell I selected.

Can anybody help me?

Thanks

Oliver

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From: tone@wildfire.com (Tone )
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developers Coalition idea
Date: 12 May 1997 16:19:31 GMT
Organization: Wildfire Communications, Inc.
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In article   
"m.kangas"  writes:
>On Wed, 23 Apr 1997, Java G wrote:
>
>> Interestingly, Apple are dumping GameSprockets and going for a  
corporate
>> image when they really should be competing with MS's w95 gaming  
strategy.
>
>Hmm, I've got two comments here... one, an improved "corporate image" in
>itself is definitely NOT a bad thing. I've personally worked at a fortune
>500 firm that effectively outlawed Macs because they were "such a pain in
>the corporate environment". It's rubbish, of course, but it's the action
>they took is what's important. Also, most of the Macs were in use IMO by
>sales-types and secretaries, groups that'd be hard-pressed to fight back
>at accusations of technical inferiority. (ahh, victimization)


Well, I deplore MS stuff, but I have to disagree that Macs fit in well in  
a mixed computing environment.  They make even basic operation difficult  
since they do not support NFS right out of the box.  Their resource forks  
are similarly broken when viewed from another platform.

A Mac only seems to look its best when Macs are the dominant player in the  
LAN you're looking at.  Otherwise, they pose aggravation to the community.

My opinion is that since almost everyone has PC investments, Macs  
complicate the picture most people are looking at when they're considering  
new equipment purchases.

tone
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From: "bebeto.slip.wg.saar.de" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: (no subject)
Date: 12 May 1997 13:23:10 GMT
Organization: Yoyodyne Posting Systems, INN Lab.
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hi,

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From: "bebeto.slip.wg.saar.de" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Mach-O file
Date: 12 May 1997 13:29:46 GMT
Organization: Yoyodyne Posting Systems, INN Lab.
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Hi, I have problems during compiling a c-program. "cc myprog.c -o myfile 
-lribout -lm" results in the following message: "libribout.a is not a 
Mach-O file" during linking. My questions: what are Mach-o files, how can 
 I solve my problem.  Thanx Mathias

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From: andreas@wb-net.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOQualifier: Show only Employees instead of all Persons
Date: 12 May 1997 18:21:11 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I've connected a tableview to an EODisplayGroup representing a set of persons. I now 
want to restrict the view to only show Employees, where Employee is a subclass of 
Person. I tried the following, wich did not work:

- (void)setAQualifier:(id)sender
{
    EOQualifier *qual = [EOQualifier 
	qualifierWithQualifierFormat:@"self isKindOfClass: klasse"];
    
    [personDisplayGroup setQualifier:qual];
    [personDisplayGroup updateDisplayedObjects];
}


Person.m:
=========
- (Class)klasse
{
    return [Employee class];
}

When I set the qualifier, I get the following error-message:

	[Freelancer valueForKey:]: attempt get value for unknown key: 'klasse'

Any ideas? Thank you in advance!

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: penrose@elvis.sfc.keio.ac.jp (Christopher Penrose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSScrollView documentView woes
Date: 12 May 1997 14:48:58 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Fujisawa Japan
Lines: 36
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Reply-To: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
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Keywords: NSScrollView, setDocumentView


Howdy Folks:

I have a multi document application in the works.  Each "document"
is a nib file containing a subclass of NSScrollView.  This subclass
has a SoundView as a document view.  The application can handle one
document beautifully.  However, if I attempt to open more than one,
I get this complaint:

May 12 22:58:24 MrSpectrogram[512] NSRunLoop: ignoring exception  
'NSInternalInconsistencyException' (reason 'lockFocus sent to a view which  
is not in a window') that raised during delayed perform of target 1383324  
and selector '_handleWindowNeedsDisplay:'

GDB tells me that this is the offense:

76        [self setDocumentView:view];
(gdb) n
May 12 23:50:53 MrSpectrogram[674] *** Assertion failure in -[SoundView  
lockFocus], NSView.m:1849
May 12 23:50:53 MrSpectrogram[674] lockFocus sent to a view which is not  
in a window

This is ironic.  I thought by performing setDocumentView:view
(where view is the SoundView) that this is THE act of relating the
SoundView to the window, by its relationship to the subclassed
NSScrollView.

Have I missed something?  Why does this work for the first window,
and fail for the second?

Thanks for any input, email response is preferred if possible.

Chris Penrose
Keio University Shonan-Fujisawa
penrose@sfc.ac.keio.jp
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Resources under next step
Date: 12 May 1997 17:15:51 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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References: <863189903.11075@dejanews.com>
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X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9 Beta(s)
Cc: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com

See "App Wrappers" in the documentation.  Files with certain extensions are 
actually directories (with unlimited resourecs) even though they appear to be 
files.  See File->Open As Folder menu in Workspace.

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Is it possible to write a plug in object
Date: 12 May 1997 17:16:33 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
Lines: 2
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X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9 Beta(s)
Cc: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com

See the NSBundle class and the BackSpace example program.

####################################################################
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From: piers@ilink.de (Piers Uso Walter)
Subject: Problem accessing Sybase with OS 4.1/EOF2.0
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: elmo.iqweb.de
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@mediahaus.de (News System)
Reply-To: piers@ilink.de
Organization: Mediahaus Stroebel in Duesseldorf (Germany)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:05:59 GMT
Lines: 33


I installed OPENSTEP 4.1/Mach and EOF 2.0 (including Sybase adaptor) on  
an Intel machine.

Now, trying to create a new model in EOModeler.app, the Sybase adaptor  
panel opens up. Here I enter the required info (database name, database  
server, user name, password).

Now an alert panel pops up:

Sybase: ct_connect(): network packet layer: internal net library error:  
Could not find addressing dictionary
	Operating System Error - 84673864

To me, this does not look like a problem of wrong input to the adaptor  
panel fields, or does it? Maybe I should set the port number somewhere  
(as I used to have to do in the Sybase interfaces file). But where and  
how?

I have no problem connecting to the database using the old sybase isql  
from NEXTSTEP 3.0.

Does anybody have an idea what the cause of the problem might be?

--
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
"I think people are happy using Windows, and that's an
 extremely depressing thought."
                                       -= Steve Jobs, 1/96 =-
Piers Uso Walter
ilink GmbH
piers@ilink.de
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
####################################################################
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From: pparker@zilker.net (Patrick D. Parker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: OpenStep/Windows development
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:39:41 -0600
Organization: The Magellan Group
Lines: 24
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: kuddp38.zilker.net
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:67855 comp.sys.next.programmer:24361 comp.sys.next.software:29503

I am looking into cross-platform development options using 
Open Step.  If I want to deploy on Windows 95/NT today, as 
well as Mac OS/Rhapsody/Others in the future, what are my 
development options?  

Specifically:

What hardware/software combinations can I use for 
development?

What is involved in deploying an Open Step application on 
Windows?  

     Open Step runtime libraries?
     Additional fees?
     Performance hits?
     Memory penalties?

Currently I am supporting Windows/Mac OS using Visix Galaxy, 
and I'm looking at other alternatives.

Thanks for any help.

Patrick Parker
####################################################################
From: Grant Passmore
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: Infusion
Subject: Infusion BBS Software
NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.139.152.211
Message-ID: <33765d9f.1@data.wt.net>
Date: 12 May 97 00:00:31 GMT
Lines: 32
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I just thought I'd let everyone know....

There is finally a BBS Software with all of the great features of OBV/2 and Iniquity, but without the bugs and bad 
support.  Infusion BBS Software is a new generation in BBS Software, modeled after OBV/2 and Iniquity with everything
that the sysop can imagine..and more.

Some basic features are:

o Multi-node upto 255 concurrent users
o Light-bar support [arrow keys]
o Requires NO Fossil Driver [selectable FOSSIL, ASYNC, and Digiboard for each node]
o Online Configuration [menu editor, string editor, evemt editor, node editor, system editor, etc]
o Pipe Color Codes
o MCI Codes
o Powerful scripting language
o Internal One-Liners, Blacklist, voting booth, etc
o Internal Z-Modem, X-Modem, Y-Modem, Y-modem-g [no limit to external protocols]
o Internal COMM Program with internal protocols, Auto Up/DL 
o Great support
o Basically all of the great features of OBV/2 and Iniquity combined

Infusion has been picked up by fuEl [international art group], and Infusion 1.0th will be released June 10th.

Come to the Infusion Home-Page at http://web.wt.net/~sparky/ibbs/ and jump into the JAVA Based Chatroom,
or come to the ANNEX, the official Infusion IRC Server [irc.annex.net] #infusion / #bbs

send the author skaboy101 [Grant Passmore] E-mail at skaboy@usa.net

-lata
skaboy101


####################################################################
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From: sef@kithrup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <33765d9f.1@data.wt.net>
Date: 13 May 1997 06:26:00 GMT
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Message-ID: 
Sender: Grant Passmore
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Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com
####################################################################
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From: "̺ȣ" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q]Is there any Class for Array addition
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:55:08 -0000
Organization: Hansol Telecom
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5la634$ceq@news.hansol.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 210.127.167.1
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.0544.0
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE Engine V4.71.0544.0

Hi all, I have a  problem in implementing addition.

I'm using WO3, NT4.0, Oracle7.3.

In stead of using "For loop" in array addition, I'm looking for any
related-class or method..

Probably, there's any ...

Thanks for any help.

Lee Byeong-ho
YuHan C&T, Korea
bhlee@cnt.co.kr



under /usr/local/sybase/interfaces.

I did not notice this using isql because I always called that with the  
"-I /usr/local/sybase/interfaces" parameter specifying the location of  
the interfaces file.

Creating a link from /usr/sybase/interfaces to  
/usr/local/sybase/interfaces solved my problem, I'm now able to access  
the database using the Sybase adaptor as well.


In comp.sys.next.programmer article  I wrote:
> 
> I installed OPENSTEP 4.1/Mach and EOF 2.0 (including Sybase adaptor)
> on an Intel machine.
> 
> Now, trying to create a new model in EOModeler.app, the Sybase
> adaptor panel opens up. Here I enter the required info (database
> name, database server, user name, password).
> 
> Now an alert panel pops up:
> 
> Sybase: ct_connect(): network packet layer: internal net library
> error:  
> Could not find addressing dictionary
> 	Operating System Error - 84673864
> 
> To me, this does not look like a problem of wrong input to the
> adaptor panel fields, or does it? Maybe I should set the port number
> somewhere (as I used to have to do in the Sybase interfaces file).
> But where and how?
> 
> I have no problem connecting to the database using the old sybase
> isql from NEXTSTEP 3.0.
> 
> Does anybody have an idea what the cause of the problem might be?

--
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
"I think people are happy using Windows, and that's an
 extremely depressing thought."
                                       -= Steve Jobs, 1/96 =-
piers@iqweb.de
-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
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From: "̺ȣ" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q:WO]GROUP BY, OR Qualifier
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:44:10 -0000
Organization: Hansol Telecom
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5la8v3$ceq@news.hansol.net>
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Hi, 

I can't found any qualifier about GROUP BY, OR operation in WOClass.

If there are any ways for implementing that, please drop me a line.

 Thank you.


Lee Byeong-ho
YuHan C&T, Korea
bhlee@cnt.co.kr



####################################################################
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From: yannick buisson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: USER ID et OpenStep4.1
Date: 13 May 1997 12:35:19 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5l9n67$kst@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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Hi all,

I try to have the user id of the user.
In NextStep i was using getuid() but it's not very clean !!!
In OpenStep i do the same thing but i find it not clean at all !

How can i do in a different way ???

Thanks for your help,

best regards,

YANNICK
-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 05 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 05 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: William.Clocksin@CL.cam.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSAttributedString: what is the overhead?
Date: 13 May 1997 14:13:19 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
Message-ID: <5l9stv$rdu@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
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I am writing an application in which I will have about one hundred short 
(say up to 5 characters each) strings scattered around the display that I 
would like to encode and render as RichText. Efficiency is important, as 
these little strings are being mutated and rearranged everytime the user 
types a key or clicks the mouse. Previously (under NS 3.3) I tried this 
with Text objects, but performance suffered, so I made up my own class with 
only the functionality I needed (just fonts). I see that under OpenStep 4.1 
there is the class NSAttributedString, which might be more suitable for 
this purpose. Is this true? Or is NSAttributedString going to have about 
the same efficiency as using NSText? I note that NSAttributedStrings 
contain an NSDictionary, so is there a lot of hash table overhead for each 
one of my little strings?

William Clocksin
Computer Laboratory
University of Cambridge
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From: martin@wise-02.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Martin Rose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: formal protocols & protocol objects
Date: 13 May 1997 15:09:45 GMT
Organization: TU Dresden (URZ)
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Hello NeXTSTEP-experts,

During our latest project, we had some problems with embedding protocols. We 
managed it to check wether a certain method is implemented in the protocol or 
not: [object confirmsTo:@protocol(Name)].

But unfortunately, our solution to use these methods by a protocol object 
failed:

protocol    *myprot = @protocol(Name);
...
[myprot Methodname];



Although the projectbuilder finishes the buildingprocess, the message "cannot 
respond to Messagename." appears.

Does anybody know something more about using protocols and especially use the 
methods provided by these protocols??

Thank you in advance,
Martin Rose
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From: Michael.Gentry@m-c-i.com (Michael Gentry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Resources under next step
Date: 13 May 1997 16:39:48 GMT
Organization: Internet MCI
Lines: 64
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00120-01

On 05/09/97, amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com wrote:
>On the MacOS applications have a resource fork to store predefined
>data such as pictures, icons, strings and so on. I am told that
>Openstep has something similar, if this is true could someone explain
>to me how it works?
>
>Also, can you take a tool, equivalent to ResEdit on the Mac, to an
>application so that you can easily modify included data?

NeXTstep (and OpenStep) uses a technique called a "wrapper".  A 
wrapper is a directory with a special purpose.  It is still a normal 
directory in all senses of the filesystem, but the Workspace Manager 
(similar to the Macintosh Finder) treats them differently.  Double 
clicking an application's wrapper runs the application instead of 
opening the directory.

Here is a partial listing of the NeXT Terminal application (and is 
typical of all NeXTstep applications):

~> ls -R /NextApps/Terminal.app/
DefaultServices.svcs    PrintSelection.tiff     Terminal
English.lproj/          PrintVisible.tiff       WindowTop.tiff
PrintAll.tiff           ScrollingMach.tiff      icon.tiff
PrintAttributes.tiff    ScrollingOutput.tiff
PrintNoAttributes.tiff  TIbeam.tiff

/NextApps/Terminal.app/English.lproj:
Find.nib/            Preferences.nib/     Services.nib/
Info.nib/            PrintAccessory.nib/  Services.strings
Localizable.strings  ServicePrompt.nib/   Terminal.nib/

The directory "Terminal.app" contains the executable "Terminal" plus 
all resources needed by the application (graphics, interfaces, data 
files, etc).

If you want to edit the graphics, just load the TIFF file up into any 
graphic/TIFF editor and modify it.  Of course, you'll have to be the 
"root" user to edit the Terminal application, but it is easy to access 
all the resources since they are simply files in the wrapper.  
Likewise, if you want to copy one on the icons in the wrapper, this is 
easy to do -- just copy the file.

The "English.lproj" directory is another wrapper.  It contains the 
localized interfaces and data files for the application.  If you 
wanted a French version, you could copy this directory to 
"French.lproj" and edit the interfaces to use the French language.  
The application would automatically pick this up (if you have set your 
default language in Preferences to be French).  I suspect NeXT 
provides a French version, but our installation doesn't include it.  
If not, it is still easy to add.

I found the wrapper technique to be much nicer (personal opinion) than 
the ResEdit/resource fork of the Macintosh.  For the average 
point-and-click user, they'll never know they are dealing with a 
directory of files since the Workspace Manager insulates them.  For 
developers, we have easy and convenient access to the resources.

- mrg

-- 
"Java's fame is due to the massive public relations campaign,
 and not to any eminent technical merits."
    - Niklaus Wirth

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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOF-Problem with vertical Inheritance
Date: 13 May 1997 17:31:09 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <5la8gt$7u6@merkur.lynet.de>
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Hello,

I've modeled something like this.

	   	 Person
		/      \
	       /        \
	Employee	Freelancer

When Person is set to be abstract, everything works very fine. I can add 
Employees and Freelancers, and when I open a window with a tableview 
connected to a PERSON-displaygroup, I can see all the persons (Employees and 
Freelancer). When I now make Person not abstract in order to being able to 
add pure Persons I see all Persons twice in the person-tableview. The tables 
in the database seem to be ok. What's going on here? (OpenStep 4.1 ; EOF 2.0)

Andreas Hoeschler
	
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOF-Problem: Promoting a Person to an Employee
Date: 13 May 1997 18:36:33 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5lacbh$8t8@merkur.lynet.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm-hl223.lynet.de
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

Hello,

I've modeled something like this.

	   	 Person
		/      \
	       /        \		(vertical Inheritance)
	Employee	Freelancer

Assume, I have some Person-Instances displayed in a tableView. I now want to 
promote the selected person to be an employee. What's the best way to do 
that? Do I have to create an empty Employee-instance, then copy the 
attributes from the person-instance, that I want to promote, and then delete 
the old person-instance, or is there a possibility to just add a row to the 
Employee-Table, without having to delete the old person-instance? Any hints?

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 13 May 1997 18:07:02 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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I'm typing this from the WWDC show floor - just got done listening
to Gil and Avie speak and they had some GREAT things to say.

Apple will be deploying the following:

Rhapsody for PPC
Rhapsody for Intel (full look-n-feel running on native Intel HW)
Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for Win95 and NT
Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for MacOS

Best of all the Yellow-Box runtimes for Windows will be distributed
for FREE - -no- licensing fees.

They also showed some neat demos:

Saw Rhapsody running on Intel running a QuickDraw 3D app written in JAVA.
Apple has promised 100% access to the OpenStep APIs and functionality
through java.

Also saw Mac OS 8 running on the Blue Box on Rhapsody for PPC.

Overall some very exciting news from Apple particularly the iconfirmation
that there will be a "native" Rhapsody for Intel and the news about no
licensing fees.

Hope the formatting of this came OK - had to telnet directly to my
news server to get this out from here.

- Chris
cwolf@wolfware.com

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From: brown@bibliotech.com (Robert E. Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: downloading PS code to window server
Date: 13 May 1997 14:35:13 -0400
Organization: Bibliotech, Inc.
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I am working on an OPENSTEP program with a substantial amount of PostScript
code.  Instead of implementing a "PSInit()" wrap, as the Draw example does,
to define a bunch of PostScript functions, I'd like to load a file of code
into the display server.  This will make debugging easier for me, since I
won't have to recompile my application to change the PostScript code.

A very old version of the program used the PostScript "run" function to load
code.  That technique doesn't seem to work anymore.  Functions defined in a
file that was "run" do not seem to be accessible to PostScript wraps.

Any suggestions?  Maybe "run" really does work, but I'm doing something else
wrong.

				bob
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: formal protocols & protocol objects
Date: 13 May 1997 18:39:00 GMT
Organization: NeXT Software, Inc.
Lines: 30
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Martin Rose writes
> Hello NeXTSTEP-experts,
> 
> During our latest project, we had some problems with embedding 
> protocols. We managed it to check wether a certain method is implemented 
> in the protocol or not: [object confirmsTo:@protocol(Name)].
> 
> But unfortunately, our solution to use these methods by a protocol 
> object failed:
> 
> protocol    *myprot = @protocol(Name);
> ...
> [myprot Methodname];
> 
> 
> 
> Although the projectbuilder finishes the buildingprocess, the message 
> "cannot respond to Messagename." appears.
> 
> Does anybody know something more about using protocols and especially 
> use the methods provided by these protocols??

Protocols do not provide method implementations, just an interface  
definition. If you want to call one of the methods declared in a protocol,  
you need to message an object that responds to that protocol.

--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: brown@bibliotech.com (Robert E. Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Debugging PostScript
Date: 13 May 1997 16:51:50 -0400
Organization: Bibliotech, Inc.
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Does anyone have nice PostScript debugging tools for OPENTSTEP?  I'm looking
for code that will print the operand stack or the contents of dictionaries --
basically anything that might be of use for doing PostScript debugging.
Maybe something to make nice backtraces or allow single stepping ...

Also, is Displaytalk still available for the Next?  Years ago it was handy
for debugging PostScript code.

				bob
ening
> to Gil and Avie speak and they had some GREAT things to say.
> 
> Apple will be deploying the following:
> 
> Rhapsody for PPC
> Rhapsody for Intel (full look-n-feel running on native Intel HW)
> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for Win95 and NT
> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for MacOS
> 
> Best of all the Yellow-Box runtimes for Windows will be distributed
> for FREE - -no- licensing fees.
> 
> They also showed some neat demos:
> 
> Saw Rhapsody running on Intel running a QuickDraw 3D app written in JAVA.
> Apple has promised 100% access to the OpenStep APIs and functionality
> through java.
> 
> Also saw Mac OS 8 running on the Blue Box on Rhapsody for PPC.
> 
> Overall some very exciting news from Apple particularly the iconfirmation
> that there will be a "native" Rhapsody for Intel and the news about no
> licensing fees.
> 
> Hope the formatting of this came OK - had to telnet directly to my
> news server to get this out from here.
> 
> - Chris
> cwolf@wolfware.com
> 
> 

*drool*

Wow.

*drool some more*

_WOW._

*tear comes to eye*

Pardon me while I just sit here in awe for a while.  The only thing I'd like 
more than this is for the Openstep Developer to have a Java -> native 
compiler, as well as Obj-C++ -> Java bytecode compiler, so that you can pick 
any of the 4 languages (C, C++, Obj-C, Java) and deploy for native Win95, NT, 
Rhapsody Intel, Rhapsody PPC, or as an Applet, all with the same rich 
programming model.  (well, that, and to have them document how 3rd parties 
can develop their own OS personalities to run alongside Rhapsody and the Blue 
Box, as well as announce more hardware platforms (esp Sparc... I really want 
to be able to upgrade my Sparcstation from Openstep 4.1 to Rhapsody :-}  )

But so far they're heading in exactly the right direction.  I'm quite happy 
with the way things are going, and I plan to continue backing them as a 
customer.


--
John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design
C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick.

####################################################################
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From: Tim Triemstra 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:58:17 -0400
Organization: Alpha Star International
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cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:
> Overall some very exciting news from Apple particularly the iconfirmation
> that there will be a "native" Rhapsody for Intel and the news about no
> licensing fees.

Yes, very exciting news indeed.  Also, on their web site today, Apple
stated that they will be reducing the OpenStep Enterprise (for NT) price
to ~$1500.  Good news, but why is the OpenStep for Mach/Intel developer
still selling for $5000?  Doesn't really make alot of sense since there
is no PPC version readily available and the only reason I can see for
lowering the NT price was to encourage development.  Would development
be MUCH more encouraged if users were running the Mach/Intel version
since it is much more stable and speedy than the OS for NT product?  I
like the OS for NT product just fine, but the Mach is what developers
need to see running to be truly encouraged about the platform (IMO)

Also, how about some Java JDK releases (1.1 please) for OpenStep? 
Please!!!! I'd buy the OS for Mach for even $5000 if project manager and
the GUI were made usable with Java :)

Tim.
IG.SYS; installs 
self-extracting EXE, ZIP files, and /or copy files.

PUBLIC DOMAIN
Shareware License Example (TEXT - 6.41KB)
Example of how to create a Shareware License file.

FREEWARE
Copy Protection Example (TEXT - SIZE: 4.76)
THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF A SECURITY TYPE PROGRAM. IT RANDOMLY 
PICKS A CODE THAT MUST BE ENTERED BY THE USER. IF THE CODE 
IS WRONG, IT WILL GIVE AN ERROR MESSAGE.


REGI$TER ONLINE! http://registerline.com
Charge shareware registration fees to your Phone Bill!
No credit cards, checks, or money orders needed!
Home of Design-YOURware Programming Proposal and Creativity Tool
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From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Debugging PostScript
Date: 13 May 1997 22:13:31 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
Lines: 18
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brown@bibliotech.com (Robert E. Brown) wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have nice PostScript debugging tools for OPENTSTEP?  I'm 
looking
> for code that will print the operand stack or the contents of dictionaries 
--
> basically anything that might be of use for doing PostScript debugging.
> Maybe something to make nice backtraces or allow single stepping ...
> 
> Also, is Displaytalk still available for the Next?  Years ago it was handy
> for debugging PostScript code.
> 

You can try my BeYap application as available on the archives.

---
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net
* NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:48:02 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5laak6$i4o$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>, cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:

> Rhapsody for PPC

  We knew that, no surprise.

> Rhapsody for Intel (full look-n-feel running on native Intel HW)

  Wow.

> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for Win95 and NT

  Good.

> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for MacOS

  WOWOWOWOWOW!!!

> Best of all the Yellow-Box runtimes for Windows will be distributed
> for FREE - -no- licensing fees.

  YOUCH!

Maury
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Example for vertical Inheritance
Date: 13 May 1997 23:11:30 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I'm desparetly trying to get a simple model like

	   	 Person
		/      \
	       /        \		(vertical Inheritance)
	Employee	Freelancer

to work. The Entities have the following attributes:

Person: lastname, firstname
Freelancer: quality

I have defined a ToOne-RelationShip from Freelancer/Employee to Person and 
set Person as the Parent in the Inspector for the two subclasses.
When I now try to save the Model, EOF-Modeler complains, that I have 
attributes lastname and firstname in Person but not in Freelancer and in 
Employee, so I simply flatten the both attributes from person.
Now I can save the model without complain.
When I now enter some Employees or Freelancer in the corresponding tableViews 
and after that open the window with the tableView connected to 
personDisplayGroup, I see all Employees/Freelancer twice in this view, 
although in the table, they only apper once.
When I now remove the flattening of the two attributes lastname and firstname 
from the model, I have the wanted effect, but of course I can't see 
lastname/firstname now in the Employee/Freelancer-tables.

Does anyone managed to do something like that with vertical inheritance or 
has an idea, why one row in the PersonTable appears twice in the TableView?
This affect only appears, when Person is set to be not abstract. If I set it 
abstract, everything works fine. Thanks in advance!

Andreas Hoeschler

 
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: 13 May 1997 22:08:02 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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Just got back from another gerat WWDC session - Technical Overview of
Rhapsody.

The most interesting info:

1) Unix will be completely hidden by unified release BUT still available
to developers and power-users who want it.

2) We saw the "work-in-progress" on the New UI

- horizontal menu bars (no word on pop-up or tear-off menus yet)
- Mac style window frames (including window shade functionality)
- NeXT style icons
- files/folders can be placed on desktop background - dock will go awat
- scroll bars on right, proportional, arrows grouped (NeXT style)
- resize windows from any corner or side
- Services will exist on Rhapsody and were demoed
- DPS is 30% faster on PPC than Pentium

All this is prelimninary and ubject to change.

3) Finder

- port of Mac OS 8 finder
- has NeXTSTEP style browser mode and NS "copy engine" whatever that is
- finder is just another app -extensible, replacable
- had toolbar across top for common functions (jump to home, root, check
for disks, etc.)
- didn't see any shelf (probably not necessary with desktop being 1 big shelf)

4) NeXTMail has been ported to Rhapsody

5) More UI notes
- help will be HTML based allowing mix of local and web based content
- window drags are live and solid, scrolling is live, animated icons will
be supported

6) Java =
- Java 1.1 Virtual Machine ported
- AWT toolkits will be available
- 100% access to OpenStep frameworks from within Java

7) Blue Box
- will run all apps except those banging the hardware or doing system
level universal extensions (i.e. file compression)

8) Emphasis on PNP for both hardware and software components

9) Rhapsody for Intel - same user experience as Rhapsody for PPC except
no Blue Box for MacOS compat.

10) FAT Binaries will be supported for Rhapsody for Intel and PPC!!!!

11) Yellow Box for Windows - seemless integration with Windows environment
and look and feel - idea is user won't even know they're running an OpenStep
app.  As I said in my earlier report - Windows OpenStep runtime will be
FREE!!

12) Yellow Box for MacOS - will have MacOS look and feel, may not support
fuiill functionality (i.e. might not have threads)


Some interesting hsitory:

2/4 - Integration of Mac/NeXT teams
2/24 - PPC kernel compiled and linked
4/9 - Unix prompt in single user mode
4/14 - Blue Box runs MacsBug
4/16 - DPS on screen
4/28 - Blue Box runs finder and some apps
4/30 - Java VM port runs
5/2 - Rhapsody boots to multi-user mode
5/2 - 1st yellow box 3rd part app ported to PPC (Create from Stone)

We saw a demo of Create running on PPC Rhapsody.  


Developer Release 1 - Summer 97
- Will be seeded to all developers
- Stable enough to use as a development environment
- Will ONLY run on PowerMac 8500 and 8600
- Will not ship with Driver developmentt tools
- No blue box

Premiere Release - early 98
- aimed at all developers and very early adopters
- will have final APIS for everything including device driver kit and Java
- Blue Box should be good enough for running productiivity apps
- will run on Modern PPC machines, PowerBooks
- UI polish will be "at least as good as NeXTSTEP"  (i.e. there may still
be some Unix exposed to end-user.)

Unified Release - mid 98
- aimed at general (high-end) Mac User
- drivers available for most PPC/PCI devices
- I/O performance will be highly tuned
- Java VM will be highly tuned - goal to have the FASTEST Java VM on
any machine!
- Goal is to have the BEST User Experience/UI ever
- full Blue Box compatibility

Oh well that's it for now... if you saw a couple other garbled copies
of this post please forgive me.  I'm telnetting directly to a NNTP
server in order to bring you the most timely news from the show floor.

- Chris
cwolf@wolfware.com
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From: "FJ van Wingerde" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 13 May 97 18:50:21 +0000
Organization: Harvard University University Information Systems
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On Tue, May 13, 1997 6:07 PM, cwolf@wolfware.com
 wrote:
> Apple will be deploying the following:
> 
> Rhapsody for PPC
> Rhapsody for Intel (full look-n-feel running on native Intel HW)
> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for Win95 and NT
> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for MacOS

The URL is at
http://macos.apple.com/macos/releases/rhapsody/yellowbox.html

It leaves me with a thought though: according to this
URL, somewhere in '98 we can get green (= yellow + blue)
hosted on MacOS as well as Mach technology. In the latter
case, the ole OpenStep/Mach/PPC is providing yellow while
having blue grafted on to it, in the first case MacOS 8 blue
has yellow grafted on to it, and both end up with same
API's. Based on what is the consumer supposed to make a choice,
i.e. what is supposed to make a consumer buy the more expensive
one?

 I can already see in related releases that Apple is trying
to position Rhaposdy as a high end OS. In the case of Microsoft
with Win32 hosted on both NT and '95, Microsoft's message is
that the consumer can choose NT for stability, performance (ha!),
and future-proofing, as'95 is going to be fazed out. Is Apple
going to do the same, or does Apple have a more compelling idea
to differentiate these two OSs?

Also, I've been watching Ellen over RealVideo for the last hour pound
it in: JAVA JAVA JAVA.

> Hope the formatting of this came OK - 

Just fine.
						FJ!!


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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:31:22 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5lak3u$bmh$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:

> Pardon me while I just sit here in awe for a while.  The only thing I'd like 
> more than this is for the Openstep Developer to have a Java -> native 
> compiler, as well as Obj-C++ -> Java bytecode compiler, so that you can pick 
> any of the 4 languages (C, C++, Obj-C, Java) and deploy for native Win95, NT, 
> Rhapsody Intel, Rhapsody PPC, or as an Applet, all with the same rich 
> programming model.

  Sorry too late, they just talked about that about 10 minutes ago.  At
least this is what I understood them to be saying.

Maury
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From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: This time is performSelector:target:argument:order:modes:
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 00:08:30 GMT
Lines: 13

Hi
I have a modal loop that I try to abort using NSLoop's  
performSelector:target:argument:order:modes: and then having the  
selector call abortModal. The modal loop aborts only after another event  
is retrieved from the queue.

So if I implement my own alert panel for example and press OK then I  
have to generate an event (clicking the mouse or pressing a key) to have  
the panel finish its modal state.

Any ideas how to make this work properly?
Thanks a lot
gb
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From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: 14 May 1997 00:25:00 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Lines: 80
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Reply-To: jrudd@cygnus.com
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In <5laoo2$l1k$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:
> Just got back from another gerat WWDC session - Technical Overview of
> Rhapsody.
> 
> The most interesting info:
> 
> 1) Unix will be completely hidden by unified release BUT still available
> to developers and power-users who want it.
> 

Excellent.  But that's what we NeXT users expexted.

> 2) We saw the "work-in-progress" on the New UI
> 
> - horizontal menu bars (no word on pop-up or tear-off menus yet)
> - Mac style window frames (including window shade functionality)
> - NeXT style icons
> - files/folders can be placed on desktop background - dock will go awat
> - scroll bars on right, proportional, arrows grouped (NeXT style)
> - resize windows from any corner or side
> - Services will exist on Rhapsody and were demoed
> - DPS is 30% faster on PPC than Pentium
> 
> All this is prelimninary and ubject to change.
> 
> 3) Finder
> 
> - port of Mac OS 8 finder
> - has NeXTSTEP style browser mode and NS "copy engine" whatever that is
> - finder is just another app -extensible, replacable
> - had toolbar across top for common functions (jump to home, root, check
> for disks, etc.)
> - didn't see any shelf (probably not necessary with desktop being 1 big 
shelf)
> 
> 4) NeXTMail has been ported to Rhapsody
> 
> 5) More UI notes
> - help will be HTML based allowing mix of local and web based content
> - window drags are live and solid, scrolling is live, animated icons will
> be supported
> 

I guess the tool bar was what I thought was a tiled shelf.  That makes sense, 
though..  a toolbar might be useful there.  I wonder if they'll have a 
bookmarks like selection though, for rapid jumping to a folder -- that's what 
most of my shelf is used for (when I have anything on it.. most of it is 
empty)

> 10) FAT Binaries will be supported for Rhapsody for Intel and PPC!!!!
> 

Yeah, the guy doing the Kernel talk is telling them about Mach-O files right 
now.   I wonder if he read all of the headaches we had on the newsgroups 
trying to explain them to everyone :-)

> 12) Yellow Box for MacOS - will have MacOS look and feel, may not support
> fuiill functionality (i.e. might not have threads)
> 

That'll be cool.  

> Oh well that's it for now... if you saw a couple other garbled copies
> of this post please forgive me.  I'm telnetting directly to a NNTP
> server in order to bring you the most timely news from the show floor.
> 
> - Chris
> cwolf@wolfware.com
> 

Thank you very much Chris.  I, and I'm sure others, greatly appreciate your 
leaking info to those of us who aren't at the show :-)


--
John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design
C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick.

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From: kwong@morgan.ucs.mun.ca (Kai S. Wong)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 14 May 1997 01:34:53 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland
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cwolf@wolfware.com writes:

>I'm typing this from the WWDC show floor - just got done listening
>to Gil and Avie speak and they had some GREAT things to say.

>Apple will be deploying the following:

>Rhapsody for PPC
>Rhapsody for Intel (full look-n-feel running on native Intel HW)
>Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for Win95 and NT
>Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for MacOS

>Best of all the Yellow-Box runtimes for Windows will be distributed
>for FREE - -no- licensing fees.

>They also showed some neat demos:

>Saw Rhapsody running on Intel running a QuickDraw 3D app written in JAVA.
>Apple has promised 100% access to the OpenStep APIs and functionality
>through java.

>Also saw Mac OS 8 running on the Blue Box on Rhapsody for PPC.

>Overall some very exciting news from Apple particularly the iconfirmation
>that there will be a "native" Rhapsody for Intel and the news about no
>licensing fees.

>Hope the formatting of this came OK - had to telnet directly to my
>news server to get this out from here.

>- Chris
>cwolf@wolfware.com

Hurray!!! Finally they are on the right track!


kai

-- 

Software Engineer
email:  kwong@morgan.ucs.mun.ca
url:	http://web.cs.mun.ca/~kwong/

PGP fingerprint <1B 67 F5 6C C4 44 4F 87  52 F7 61 C7 8E D0 36 40>
finger kwong@plato.ucs.mun.ca to get PGP public key.
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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Mac developer programs...
Date: 14 May 1997 01:18:52 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
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X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

So I sent off my Mac developer 'associate' application 
today.

Any guesses how long till I hear something? Do they
respond quickly?

Thanks,

Jon

--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: 3.3 loginwindow
Date: 14 May 1997 02:11:41 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
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Does any documentation exist for the loginwindow UI
bundle API in 3.3? 

- Jon

--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 14 May 1997 02:47:49 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <5lb94l$onm$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
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On 05/13/97, "FJ van Wingerde" wrote:
>On Tue, May 13, 1997 6:07 PM, cwolf@wolfware.com
> wrote:
>> Apple will be deploying the following:
>> 
>> Rhapsody for PPC
>> Rhapsody for Intel (full look-n-feel running on native Intel HW)
>> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for Win95 and NT
>> Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for MacOS
>
>The URL is at
>http://macos.apple.com/macos/releases/rhapsody/yellowbox.html
>
>It leaves me with a thought though: according to this
>URL, somewhere in '98 we can get green (= yellow + blue)
>hosted on MacOS as well as Mach technology. In the latter
>case, the ole OpenStep/Mach/PPC is providing yellow while
>having blue grafted on to it, in the first case MacOS 8 blue
>has yellow grafted on to it, and both end up with same
>API's. Based on what is the consumer supposed to make a choice,
>i.e. what is supposed to make a consumer buy the more expensive
>one?

The idea of hosting Yellow Box APIs on MacOS is apparently so that developers can 
freely migrate to the new API without having to leave behind customers who have 
not yet upgraded.  It was repeatedly stressed that Rhapsody would provide the 
best user experience and was the premiere platform for deploying OpenStep apps.

> I can already see in related releases that Apple is trying
>to position Rhaposdy as a high end OS. In the case of Microsoft
>with Win32 hosted on both NT and '95, Microsoft's message is
>that the consumer can choose NT for stability, performance (ha!),
>and future-proofing, as'95 is going to be fazed out. Is Apple
>going to do the same, or does Apple have a more compelling idea
>to differentiate these two OSs?

They also mentioned that there will be both Server and Client versions of 
Rhapsody.   The difference between them in either price or features was
not explicitly mentioned.

>Also, I've been watching Ellen over RealVideo for the last hour pound
>it in: JAVA JAVA JAVA.
>
>> Hope the formatting of this came OK - 
>
>Just fine.
>						FJ!!
>
>
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 14 May 1997 02:54:19 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <5lb9gr$ort$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
References: <5laak6$i4o$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5lak3u$bmh$1@majipoor.cygnus.com> 
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On 05/13/97, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In article <5lak3u$bmh$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:
>
>> Pardon me while I just sit here in awe for a while.  The only thing I'd like 
>> more than this is for the Openstep Developer to have a Java -> native 
>> compiler, as well as Obj-C++ -> Java bytecode compiler, so that you can pick 
>> any of the 4 languages (C, C++, Obj-C, Java) and deploy for native Win95, NT, 
>> Rhapsody Intel, Rhapsody PPC, or as an Applet, all with the same rich 
>> programming model.
>
>  Sorry too late, they just talked about that about 10 minutes ago.  At
>least this is what I understood them to be saying.
>
>Maury

Maury,

Hmmm...

The situation with Java, AS I UNDERSTAND IT (disclaimer :-) is:

You can write 100% Pure Java code which can run on any Java capable platform 
including running on Rhapsody's Java Virtual Machine and Rhapsody's Java AWT kit.

Or you can write Java Code which mixes standard Java AWT toolbox calls with calls 
to ANY of the OpenStep frameworks - but this code will only work on Yellow-Box 
(OpenStep) platforms.  

I didn't hear any talk about compiling Yellow-Box code to Java Byte code or 
compiling Java.

The CodeWarrior Lattitude people were talking about compiling to Java byte-code 
UI believe - but then you're using MacOS APIs not Yellow-Box APIs.  Ugh.

- Chris

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,advocacy
Subject: WWDC Core OS News
Date: 14 May 1997 03:14:59 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 91
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cwolf.vip.best.com
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

finally home after a long but exciting day at WWDC (and able to post from a 
real newsreader again :-)

The final sessions of the day were about the "Core OS" layer - and at these 
sessions we (including yours truly) finally got the chance to ask some questions.  
Apple did seem to take everyone's feedback seriously.

Here's th interesting scoop from these sessions:

Mach Kernel is the 2.5+ version which has been used in NeXTSTEP & OpenStep/Mach 
all along.  In the future it may be upgraded to something more modern but not for 
a while.

BSD layer is confirmed to be 4.4 - including full Posix support.

I asked whether the new kernel/BSD layer had solved the unshrinkable swap-file 
problem yet (judging from the scattered applause apparently quite a few people 
wanted to know :-) and the answer was "Not yet but they'd sure like to."

I spoke to one of their engineers in charge of compiler technologies and asked 
about the rumoured Objective-C syntax changes.  He assured me that the 
"traditional" syntax would be supported "forever."

The filesystem news was a little bit less exciting from a NeXTSTEP perspective.   

File system support is based on a vfs (Virtual File System I think) layer within 
the kernel allowing a large number of differnet volume formats to be supported 
transparently.  Vfs layers can be stacked to allow insertion of stuff such as 
encryption or compression layers.  Vfs layers will take care of storing 
meta-dater (such as type/creator info) using whatever mechanism the volume 
formats provide in a transparent fashion.

The "native" volume format for the publci release will be HFS-Plus.  Allows for 
muti-terabyte volumes and 64 bit files.   Filenames can be up to 255 Unicode 
characters.  Provides small allocation blocks even for large partitions.   Will 
have the concept of file permissions, hard-links, creation/access dates.   The 
HFS-Plus volume format will not be avaialble until the Premier release.   The 
initial developer release will use BSD 4.4 UFS.  "Aliases" for tracking files 
even when their location changes will be supported.

The volume format will be transparent with the vfs layer taking care of meta-data 
storage and name-mangling (within reason... you won't be able to boot from a FAT 
volume for instance.)  Type/Creator data will apparently be provided by vfs.  How 
this will be used by the UI was not specifically addressed although ti sounds 
like it will be Mac-like.

Yellow-Box API will have a new(?) URL based file management API in addition to 
the current NSFileHandle and other file handling APIs.

The filesystem will be psuedo-case insensitive.  If you have a file named 
"MyFile" you will be able to access it using "myfile" or "MYFILE" or any other 
case-variant.  HOWEVER, if two files exist in the same director i.e. "~/MyFile" 
and "~/myfile" then case WILL be honored and you will get the file which matches 
the case you asked for.  (This supports legacy situations and access to 
filesystems where case is important.)

The Blue Box will have 3 different f/s options:

1) You can access a HFS volume directly from the blue box using the existing Mac 
OS code with bug-for-bug compatibility.  Such a volume will not be simultaneously 
accessible from the Yellow box.

2) You can create a disk-image file on the yellow-box which will look like a HFS 
volume to the blue-box.

3) You can mount any filesystem supported by the vfs by both the Blue Box and the 
Yellow Box simultaneously and both boxes will access the volume through the vfs 
core... gives greatest flexibility but less compatibility perhaps.

Take care,
Chris

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

####################################################################
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WWDC Core OS News
Date: 14 May 1997 03:13:39 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 81
Message-ID: <5lbal3$p4a$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cwolf.vip.best.com
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

I'm finally home after a long but exciting day at WWDC (and able to post from a 
real newsreader again :-)

The final sessions of the day were about the "Core OS" layer - and at these 
sessions we (including yours truly) finally got the chance to ask some questions.  
Apple did seem to take everyone's feedback seriously.

Here's th interesting scoop from these sessions:

Mach Kernel is the 2.5+ version which has been used in NeXTSTEP & OpenStep/Mach 
all along.  In the future it may be upgraded to something more modern but not for 
a while.

BSD layer is confirmed to be 4.4 - including full Posix support.

I asked whether the new kernel/BSD layer had solved the unshrinkable swap-file 
problem yet (judging from the scattered applause apparently quite a few people 
wanted to know :-) and the answer was "Not yet but they'd sure like to."

I spoke to one of their engineers in charge of compiler technologies and asked 
about the rumoured Objective-C syntax changes.  He assured me that the 
"traditional" syntax would be supported "forever."

The filesystem news was a little bit less exciting from a NeXTSTEP perspective.   

File system support is based on a vfs (Virtual File System I think) layer within 
the kernel allowing a large number of differnet volume formats to be supported 
transparently.  Vfs layers can be stacked to allow insertion of stuff such as 
encryption or compression layers.  Vfs layers will take care of storing 
meta-dater (such as type/creator info) using whatever mechanism the volume 
formats provide in a transparent fashion.

The "native" volume format for the publci release will be HFS-Plus.  Allows for 
muti-terabyte volumes and 64 bit files.   Filenames can be up to 255 Unicode 
characters.  Provides small allocation blocks even for large partitions.   Will 
have the concept of file permissions, hard-links, creation/access dates.   The 
HFS-Plus volume format will not be avaialble until the Premier release.   The 
initial developer release will use BSD 4.4 UFS.  "Aliases" for tracking files 
even when their location changes will be supported.

The volume format will be transparent with the vfs layer taking care of meta-data 
storage and name-mangling (within reason... you won't be able to boot from a FAT 
volume for instance.)  Type/Creator data will apparently be provided by vfs.  How 
this will be used by the UI was not specifically addressed although ti sounds 
like it will be Mac-like.

Yellow-Box API will have a new(?) URL based file management API in addition to 
the current NSFileHandle and other file handling APIs.

The filesystem will be psuedo-case insensitive.  If you have a file named 
"MyFile" you will be able to access it using "myfile" or "MYFILE" or any other 
case-variant.  HOWEVER, if two files exist in the same director i.e. "~/MyFile" 
and "~/myfile" then case WILL be honored and you will get the file which matches 
the case you asked for.  (This supports legacy situations and access to 
filesystems where case is important.)

The Blue Box will have 3 different f/s options:

1) You can access a HFS volume directly from the blue box using the existing Mac 
OS code with bug-for-bug compatibility.  Such a volume will not be simultaneously 
accessible from the Yellow box.

2) You can create a disk-image file on the yellow-box which will look like a HFS 
volume to the blue-box.

3) You can mount any filesystem supported by the vfs by both the Blue Box and the 
Yellow Box simultaneously and both boxes will access the volume through the vfs 
core... gives greatest flexibility but less compatibility perhaps.

Take care,
Chris

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

####################################################################
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From: Hkan Jonsson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Bug in NXRectFillListWithGrays?
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:39:25 +0200
Organization: Volvo Truck Corporation
Lines: 105
Message-ID: <33795E1D.51A9@vtc.volvo.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bd1162.got.vtc.volvo.se
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win95; I)

Hi!

I encountered a problem when using NXRectFillListWithGrays with more than 50 rects. A 
little test program (code below) managed to draw 50 rects fine, but when I used 51 rects 
nothing at all was drawn. When run with -NXShowPS YES the following differences were 
produced in the output:

============================================================
/* no_rects > 50: */

% *** Debug *** Object:532384 Class:View Method:lockFocus
7 execuserobject setgstate
1 1 400 400 rectclip
1 1 translate
50
flushgraphics

-------------------------------------------------------------
/* no_rects <=50: */

% *** Debug *** Object:533304 Class:View Method:lockFocus
7 execuserobject setgstate
1 1 400 400 rectclip
1 1 translate
49 49 1 1 48 48 1 1 47 47 1 1 46 46 1 1 45 45 1 1 44 44 1 1 43 43 1 1 42 42 1 1 41 41 1 
1 40 40 1 1 39 39 1 1 38 38 1 1 37 37 1 1 36 36 1 1 35 35 1 1 34 34 1 1 33 33 1 1 32 32 
1 1 31 31 1 1 30 30 1 1 29 29 1 1 28 28 1 1 27 27 1 1 26 26 1 1 25 25 1 1 24 24 1 1 23 
23 1 1 22 22 1 1 21 21 1 1 20 20 1 1 19 19 1 1 18 18 1 1 17 17 1 1 16 16 1 1 15 15 1 1 
14 14 1 1 13 13 1 1 12 12 1 1 11 11 1 1 10 10 1 1 9 9 1 1 8 8 1 1 7 7 1 1 6 6 1 1 5 5 1 
1 4 4 1 1 3 3 1 1 2 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 setgray rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill 
rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill 
rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill 
rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill 
rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill 
rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill rectfill 
rectfill
flushgraphics

===================================================================

As you can see there is only one line that differs, the line where all the drawing is 
done. This was the only difference between the two outputs. Does anyone know what is 
going on? Am I doing something wrong?

/Hakan Jonsson

The code follows:

#import 
#import 
#import 
#import 
#import 
#import 

void demo(void)
{
    const int no_rects = 51; /* #### This is the number of rects #### */
    id myWindow, myView;
    NXRect graphicsRect;
    NXRect myRects[no_rects];
    float myGrays[no_rects];
    int i;

    NXSetRect(&graphicsRect, 100.0, 350.0, 400.0, 400.0);
    myWindow = [[Window alloc]
		initContent:&graphicsRect
		style:NX_TITLEDSTYLE
		backing:NX_BUFFERED
		buttonMask:NX_MINIATURIZEBUTTONMASK
		defer:NO];

    [myWindow display];

    myView = [[View alloc] initFrame:&graphicsRect];
    [myView setOpaque:YES];

    [myWindow setContentView:myView];
    [myWindow makeKeyAndOrderFront:nil];
    [myView lockFocus];

    /* #### Setup rects #### */
    for(i = 0; i < no_rects; i++)
    {
        myRects[i].origin.x = i;
	myRects[i].origin.y = i;
	myRects[i].size.width = 1;
	myRects[i].size.height = 1;
	myGrays[i] = 0.0;	
    }

    /* #### Draw rects #### */
    NXRectFillListWithGrays( &myRects[0],  &myGrays[0],no_rects);

    [myWindow flushWindow];
    [myView unlockFocus];
}

void main(void)
{
    NXApp = [Application new];
    demo();
    [NXApp run];
    [NXApp free];
}
####################################################################
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From: Axel.Rau@fr.bosch.de (Axel Rau - QI/RZS1 - Bosch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ssh-1.2.17
Date: 14 May 1997 07:58:13 GMT
Organization: Robert Bosch GmbH
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <5lbral$hlh@sioux.fr.internet.bosch.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: turbo.fr.internet.bosch.de

Anyone out there who successfully compiled the Secure Shell client under
OPENSTEP 4.1 or NEXTSTEP 3.3 ?

--
Gruesse / regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------
Axel Rau - Bosch - QI/RZS1 - Internetdienste Boschweit - Germany
Bosch Telecom QI/RZS31; P.O.Box; D-60277 Frankfurt
Street:        Kleyerstrasse 94; D-60326 Frankfurt
Phone: +49-69-7505-6069;  Fax: -2169;
####################################################################
Subject: Re: EOF-Problem: Promoting a Person to an Employee
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <5lacbh$8t8@merkur.lynet.de>
In-Reply-To: <5lacbh$8t8@merkur.lynet.de>
From:  marco@nospam.sente.ch (Marco Scheurer (remove nospam to reply))
X-Url: http://www.sente.ch/
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01
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Message-ID: <3379867e.0@epflnews.epfl.ch>
Date: 14 May 97 09:31:42 GMT
Lines: 36
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On 05/13/97, andreas@lynet.de wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I've modeled something like this.
>
>	   	 Person
>		/      \
>	       /        \		(vertical Inheritance)
>	Employee	Freelancer
>
[...]

"An employee is a person" is the canonical example of inheritance, but 
it is wrong. An employee is not a kind of person. Employee is a role 
played by a person. Someone is (always) a person, can be employee on 
Wednesday, a freelancer on Thursday, and many other "things". Roles 
represent dynamic classification.

Since there is, at this time, no language or tool support for roles, 
you have to implement them using classes. There is a many-to-many 
relationship between persons and roles. For instance, in a (small) 
project you could have the roles "Project Manager", "Developer" and 
"Technical Writer", and persons John, Mary, and Peter. All of them 
"are developers" (play the role of developer), John also plays the 
role of Technical Writer, and Mary the role of Project Manager.

This may not be the answer you expected, but you'll notice that it is 
a solution your problem, since you don't have to "promote" (really 
change the class) of any object. As an added benefit, the resulting 
model will be more reusable.


-- 
Marco Scheurer (marco@sente.ch)
Sen:te

####################################################################
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From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Sender: news@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Mr. News)
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:41:05 GMT
References: <5laoo2$l1k$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
Nntp-Posting-Host: bcr.uwaterloo.ca
Organization: University of Waterloo
Lines: 49
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:67982 comp.sys.next.programmer:24398

In article <5laoo2$l1k$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>,   wrote:
>Just got back from another gerat WWDC session - Technical Overview of
>Rhapsody.
>

...

>- has NeXTSTEP style browser mode and NS "copy engine" whatever that is

  Maybe it's the copy/move/link thing?

>10) FAT Binaries will be supported for Rhapsody for Intel and PPC!!!!
>

  !!! indeed!

>Some interesting hsitory:
>
>2/4 - Integration of Mac/NeXT teams
>2/24 - PPC kernel compiled and linked
>4/9 - Unix prompt in single user mode
>4/14 - Blue Box runs MacsBug
>4/16 - DPS on screen
>4/28 - Blue Box runs finder and some apps
>4/30 - Java VM port runs
>5/2 - Rhapsody boots to multi-user mode

  That's what I call some smokin work!

>5/2 - 1st yellow box 3rd part app ported to PPC (Create from Stone)
>
>We saw a demo of Create running on PPC Rhapsody.  
>

  Congrats to Andrew and friends--it's great to see such a nice company thrust
into the limelight like this.

>Oh well that's it for now... if you saw a couple other garbled copies
>of this post please forgive me.  I'm telnetting directly to a NNTP
>server in order to bring you the most timely news from the show floor.
>

  Thanks for all the info, Chris.  BTW, did you see Steve Sarich there?  ;-)

-- 
David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
####################################################################
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From: rainer@wmax71.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Rainer Frohnhfer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!
Date: 14 May 1997 10:02:36 GMT
Organization: University of Wuerzburg, Germany
Lines: 19
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Reply-To: rainer@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de
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 Just came across this on the Apple WWDC site an thought I should share the 
experience with you ... not that it is a nice one :(

> OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 for Windows NT--at around U.S.$1,500, per developer 
> version OPENSTEP Enterprise Deployment starts at around U.S.$12,899 per 
> server pack OPENSTEP Developer for Mach--U.S. $5,000 per developer version 
> OPENSTEP User for Mach--at around U.S. $800 per seat Enterprise Object 
> Frameworks (EOF) 2.1 for Mach--U.S. $500 per seat

  The only environment to develop on, and they price it out of the market!
 Do they really believe I will buy NT for this?
--
-------------------------------------
"Um Energie zu sparen, 
   wird das Licht am Ende des Tunnels
      vorlaeufig abgeschaltet." rainer@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de
                    (finger rainer@cip.mathematik for public key ...)			

####################################################################
Subject: Re: financial software
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <33700BD8.EAB9723C@fas.harvard.edu>
In-Reply-To: <33700BD8.EAB9723C@fas.harvard.edu>
From: marco@sente.nospam.ch (Marco Scheurer (remove nospam to reply))
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Date: 14 May 97 10:13:46 GMT
Lines: 23
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On 05/07/97, "Jean R. Moreau, Jr." wrote:
>Can anyone steer me to any references that focus on programming
>financially oriented applications? In particular, I'd like to develop
>some intuition about how to deal with financial products as objects.
[...]

In Reusable Object Models by Martin Fowler (Addison Wesley, 1997), you 
may find insight in: 
Chapter 9. Trading
Chapter 10. Derivative Contracts
Chapter 11. Trading Packages

Another reference is Visual Objects, Edited by D. Tsichritzis (Centre 
Universitaire d'Informatique, Universite de Geneve, 1993, 
http://cuiwww.unige.ch/):
Chapter 7. Building an Object-oriented Financial Framework

Hope this helps

-- 
Marco Scheurer (marco@sente.ch)
Sen:te

####################################################################
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From: RLG
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: US-N. VA/ DC => NeXT/ WebObjects
Date: 13 May 1997 20:00:15 -0700
Organization: Client/Server Resources
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <5lb9rv$14h@drn.zippo.com>

Client/Server Resources has cutting edge opportunities in the Washington DC Metro Area for:

NeXTStep Developers

Responsibilities include design and development of the common object model.

Work with other project teams to solidify the design of the common object model through the following development cycles:

	Requirement Analysis
	Functional Design
	Technical Design
	Construction
	Application Testing

Qualifications:

Application of OO design techniques and methodologies
3+ yrs C++ and/or Objective C programming experience

1+ yr UNIX Operating System experience - Sun Solaris 2.5 is ideal
NeXTStep, OpenStep Solaris, and Windows NT Operating System 
experience a plus

Knowledge of major RDBMS (Sybase & ORACLE)

Enterprise Objects Modeler (EOModeler), Enterprise Objects Framework* 2.0/3.0(EOF*),  WebObjects 3.0*

e-mail your resume TODAY!  clientserver@msn.com

* "Perhaps the heart of WebObjects is Enterprise Objects Framework (EOF).  The EOF is used to manipulate data as it passes between your database, your Enterprise Objects, and the HTML interface in your WebObjects application.  The framework provides a valuable layer of abstraction for business logic.  Your code talks to the framework, so that an applications interface or backend database can be changed without having to alter business logic.

WebObjects has a very open architecture that is becoming even more open and is suitable for any large or sophisticated Web site." - Joshua Kerievsky		< http://www.next.com >

e-mail your resume TODAY!!! ====>  clientserver@msn.com

Fax=====>  (301) 983-4728

Snail mail to:

Client/Server Resources
P.O. Box 61351
Potomac, Maryland  20859-1351
Tel: (301) 983-6942
Fax: (301) 983-4728
e-mail: clientserver@msn.com
####################################################################
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:11:07 -0600
From: David Stes 
Subject: Re: ssh-1.2.17
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <863607862.15675@dejanews.com>
Organization: Wolfram Research, Inc.
References: <5lbral$hlh@sioux.fr.internet.bosch.de
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In article <5lbral$hlh@sioux.fr.internet.bosch.de>,
Axel.Rau@fr.bosch.de (Axel Rau - QI/RZS1 - Bosch) wrote:
>
> Anyone out there who successfully compiled the Secure Shell client under
> OPENSTEP 4.1 or NEXTSTEP 3.3 ?
>

Yeah, ssh-1.2.19 on NextStep 3.0. Works fine.
I had to compile it with gcc2.7.1.

I also had to make some changes to get the ssh-agent working
on NeXT. (& submitted the changes to the authors).

David.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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From: Etienne_Klein@lca.u-nancy.fr (Etienne Klein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Please help with rld_load and rld_lookup !
Date: 14 May 1997 11:14:12 GMT
Organization: CIRIL, Nancy, France
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <5lc6q4$6er$1@arcturus.ciril.fr>
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Hi,

I am trying to port a code wich use dynamic loading of C library.
I can easily load the file (at least rld_load retuns 1) but then I am stuck 
with the call to rld_lookup !

Any help will be greatly appreciated !
Thank you.


Etienne Klein
Laboratoire de Chimie Analytique
Faculte de Pharmacie de Nancy
France

Here is my test code:

#import 
#import 

static NXStream *str;
static char *buf;

/* I found that rld_error is already defined but I can't find the doc nor its 
definition in the headers files !? */
static void rld_str_error(char *msg){
	int len,maxlen;
	NXGetMemoryBuffer(str,&buf,&len,&maxlen);
	printf("%s : %s\n",msg,buf);
}


void main(int argc,char **argv){
  str=NXOpenMemory(NULL,0,NX_READWRITE);
  if(argv[1]&&(*argv[1])){
    struct mach_header *header;
    const char *path[]={argv[1],NULL};
    int status=rld_load(str, &header,path,NULL);
		
    if(status){
      if((argv[2])&&(*argv[2])){
        unsigned long fn;
	char symbolName[100];
	void (*fct)(void);
	int funcStatus;
			
	sprintf(symbolName,"_%s",argv[2]); // I have also tryed without the _
	funcStatus=rld_lookup( str, symbolName, &fn ); // Here it fails :-(
	if(funcStatus){
	  fct=(void (*)(void))fn; // Did I understand correctly the doc ?
	  fct();
	}else{
	  rld_str_error("Symbol non trouve");
	}
      }else{
	printf("Donner un nom de fonction en 2 ieme argument\n");
      }
    }else{
      rld_str_error("Impossible de charger le module");
    }
      NXCloseMemory(str,NX_FREEBUFFER);
    }else{
      printf("Donner un nom de module en 1 er argument\n");
    }
  exit(0);
}
####################################################################
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From: Tim Triemstra 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:29:03 -0400
Organization: Alpha Star International
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cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:
> Some interesting hsitory:
> 
> 2/4 - Integration of Mac/NeXT teams
> 2/24 - PPC kernel compiled and linked
> 4/9 - Unix prompt in single user mode
> 4/14 - Blue Box runs MacsBug
> 4/16 - DPS on screen
> 4/28 - Blue Box runs finder and some apps
> 4/30 - Java VM port runs

Hey, if they can get the JDK 1.1 VM running so quickly, when do we NeXT
people get to have a JDK 1.1 port for our own work?  Anyone know if 4.2
is supposed to have a real 1.1 port?  Thanks!

> 5/2 - Rhapsody boots to multi-user mode
> 5/2 - 1st yellow box 3rd part app ported to PPC (Create from Stone)
 
> Developer Release 1 - Summer 97
> - Will be seeded to all developers
> - Stable enough to use as a development environment
> - Will ONLY run on PowerMac 8500 and 8600
> - Will not ship with Driver developmentt tools
> - No blue box

Again, no mention of Java in that release.  I don't currently own any
Macs (a bunch of black NeXT hardware though.)  I'd go out and buy a
PowerMac when the developers release comes out if they include Java on
the box.  All I'm programming now is Java anyway, I 'd prefer a more
stable box than the NT (and hopefully faster.)

Tim.
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From: "Salvador" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Necesito ayuda en Visual Basic 4
Date: 10 May 97 08:51:19 GMT
Organization: Unisource Espana NEWS SERVER
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <01bc5d1e$db1acce0$2a4b05c3@hola.arrakis.es>
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X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161

Ayuda!

Programo un poco en Visual Basic 4 y desde hace unos 3 meses
estoy realizando una aplicacin, es un programa educativo, de 
momento no he tenido ningn problema hasta que se me ha pasado por la
cabeza la idea de meterle un exmen.
Me gustaria que despus de hacer el exmen (Tipo test) me dijera la nota.
(Alguien me puede decir como puedo hacer esto?) y que las preguntas se 
eligieran al azar entre unas 100 que tengo ya escritas (Alguien me puede 
decir como puedo hacer esto?).

Porfavor Si alguien sabe la respuesta a alguna de estas 2 preguntas que
envie un E-Mail a la direccin Sbellver@arrakis.es

Gracias.
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From: andre@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Andre Schaefer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,de.comp.sys.next,comp.sys.next.software,comp.soft-sys.nextstep,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: miniSQL 2.0 and EOF 1.1 on Nextstep 3.3 ?
Date: 14 May 1997 14:16:14 GMT
Organization: University Koblenz / Germany
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5lchfe$htf$1@newshost.uni-koblenz.de>
Reply-To: andre@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Andre Schaefer)
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Keywords: miniSQL, EOF, Nextstep
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Hello everybody,

who knows, or has tried, if the miniSQL Adapter for the EOF 1.1  
will work with the latest miniSQL Server by Hughes Software?

I build an EOF Applikation for my thesis in university. I have  
until now used the msql 1.0.16 distribution, which worked but  
lacked a lot of features I needed.
My University does not own an Oracle Server or a Sybase one (just  
INFORMIX), so msql seems to be the only affordable option.

msql 2.0 adresses many of the experienced problems, such as  
indexing of tables and textfields with variable length. So I'd  
like to use it.

How can I integrate it in the Applikation without too much  
restructuring?

ANY help will be useful.

Please answer also by email, if possible...

Cheers,
	Andre' Schaefer
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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Question about [EOEditingContext setDefaultParentObjectStore]
Date: 14 May 1997 10:21:25 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <5lc3n5$2s6@merkur.lynet.de>
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Hello,

I want to show some important attributes of Employee in a TableView and allow 
the user to invoke a more detailed View (another NibFile) by pressing a 
button. Therefore I want to work with nested EOEditingContexts:


DetailView (NibFile2)	EditingContext2
				|
				|
ListView (NibFile1)	EOEditingContext1
				|
			       ...
In the Documentation of EOEditingContext I found the following:

=============================================================
+ (void)setDefaultParentObjectStore:(EOObjectStore *)store 

Sets to store an EOEditingContext's default parent EOObjectStore. You use 
this method before loading a nib file to change the default parent 
EOObjectStores of the EOEditingContexts in the nib file. The object you 
supply for store can be a different EOObjectStoreCoordinator or another 
EOEditingContext (if you're using a nested EOEditingContext).

See also:	 +defaultParentObjectStore 
===============================================================
The question is, how can I send the EditingContext in NibFile2 a message 
(setDefaultParentObjectStore) before it has been loaded (instantiated), or 
are only the Window's with a nibfile loaded by calling [NSBundle 
loadNibNamed:...] and all other classes already at applicationstart?
I suppose, ther's something I haven't understood yet. May you help me up?

Andreas Hoeschler

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From: "FJ van Wingerde" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 14 May 97 11:12:35 +0000
Organization: Harvard University University Information Systems
Lines: 24
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On Wed, May 14, 1997 2:47 AM, Christopher Wolf 
wrote:
> The idea of hosting Yellow Box APIs on MacOS is apparently so that
developers can 
> freely migrate to the new API without having to leave behind customers
who have 
> not yet upgraded.  It was repeatedly stressed that Rhapsody would provide
the 
> best user experience and was the premiere platform for deploying OpenStep
apps.

Ok, that makes sense.

Thing is, knowing what I know about OpenStep, I wonder how
well MacOS 8 can actually host Yellow. I mean, multi-threaded
finders, fine, nice, thank you Apple, but that doesn't suddenly
make that OS a rich and fast message passing environment
with solid threads and speddy file work. Correct me if I am wrong, 
but it seems to me like before we hit Allegro, Mac OS will 
need so much iinternal work that it might end u internally
resembling Rhapsody lot.
						FJ!!


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From: "tech" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 14 May 1997 15:43:26 GMT
Organization: InLink
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> case, the ole OpenStep/Mach/PPC is providing yellow while
> having blue grafted on to it, in the first case MacOS 8 blue
> has yellow grafted on to it, and both end up with same
> API's. Based on what is the consumer supposed to make a choice,
> i.e. what is supposed to make a consumer buy the more expensive
> one? 
 
I have a suspicion that the MacOS priced version will be the new Allegra,
which is Blue Box running on Mach on Macs, without the full Rhapsody
development environment, which may be sold at WinNT prices. Bummer, as I
want the latter, not the former.


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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!
Date: 14 May 1997 16:16:33 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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Rainer Frohnher writes
> [NT developer pricing down, Mach pricing still very high]
> The only environment to develop on, and they price it out of the market!
>  Do they really believe I will buy NT for this?

You might want to try developing under OPENSTEP/NT before making a final 
judgment. It's not as bad as you think. And my experience is that writing 
for NT gives you the greatest portability; i.e., some code that runs on 
Mach still needs to be tweaked on NT, whereas NT-developed code almost 
always compiles clean on Mach.

Now, as to the programmer's _user_ experience with the rest of the things 
surrounding the developer environment, I agree: give me OS/Mach anyday. 
And I do agree that the pricing differential is extreme. Seems to me that 
Apple is either trying to push people away from Mach, or they are trying 
to capture the value of the "total" OPENSTEP experience.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:15:39 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5lb9gr$ort$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>, cwolf@wolfware.com
(Christopher Wolf) wrote:

> I didn't hear any talk about compiling Yellow-Box code to Java Byte code or 
> compiling Java.

  Ahhhhh, sorry.

Maury
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:14:59 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article , "FJ van Wingerde"
 wrote:

> API's. Based on what is the consumer supposed to make a choice,
> i.e. what is supposed to make a consumer buy the more expensive
> one?

a) Why would it be more expensive?
b) Speed and stability?

> and future-proofing, as'95 is going to be fazed out. Is Apple
> going to do the same, or does Apple have a more compelling idea
> to differentiate these two OSs?

  I get the feeling they will indeed go the Win95->NT route.

Maury
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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:12:39 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5laoo2$l1k$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>, cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:

> - Mac style window frames (including window shade functionality)

  gag.  WindowShade sucks.

> - port of Mac OS 8 finder
> - has NeXTSTEP style browser mode and NS "copy engine" whatever that is

  Cool.  The later is likely the engine that copies files (ie, a shell
command that's forked).

Maury
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Debugging PostScript
Date: 14 May 1997 15:52:37 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
Lines: 7
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In <87sozrdrix.fsf@bibliotech.com> Robert E. Brown wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have nice PostScript debugging tools for OPENTSTEP?  I'm 
looking

Yap in the examples directory

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: downloading PS code to window server
Date: 14 May 1997 15:54:08 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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In <87wwp3qkym.fsf@bibliotech.com> Robert E. Brown wrote:
> I am working on an OPENSTEP program with a substantial amount of PostScript
> code.  Instead of implementing a "PSInit()" wrap, as the Draw example does,

See the Yap example program

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From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: 14 May 1997 17:01:35 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
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In <01bc607d$347cbda0$1978c4ce@mercury.inlink.com> "tech" wrote:
> 
> Only on 8500 and 8600, but not the 7500 and 7600 which have the same
> motherboards???
> 
> 

Maybe it's a case of "only supported on 8500 and 8600, other systems used at 
your own risk, no guarantee of anything working/porting".  Or maybe the 7500 
and 7600 have peripherals that aren't going to have driver support (I'm not 
that familiar with the line) in the developers release?

What other systems _ought_ be transparently compatible with the 8500 and
8600, except for their peripherals?

--
John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design
C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick.

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From: tcondon@isp.net (Tom Condon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:49:08 -0700
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Don't forget to mention Yellow-Box for MacOS.  Yes its true!! Develop for
Yellow-Box and your app will run everywhere!!!!!! 

Apple is back!!!

In article <5lak3u$bmh$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:

> In <5laak6$i4o$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:
> > I'm typing this from the WWDC show floor - just got done listening
> > to Gil and Avie speak and they had some GREAT things to say.
> > 
> > Apple will be deploying the following:
> > 
> > Rhapsody for PPC
> > Rhapsody for Intel (full look-n-feel running on native Intel HW)
> > Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for Win95 and NT
> > Yellow-Box (OpenStep) for MacOS
> > 
> > Best of all the Yellow-Box runtimes for Windows will be distributed
> > for FREE - -no- licensing fees.
> > 
> > They also showed some neat demos:
> > 
> > Saw Rhapsody running on Intel running a QuickDraw 3D app written in JAVA.
> > Apple has promised 100% access to the OpenStep APIs and functionality
> > through java.
> > 
> > Also saw Mac OS 8 running on the Blue Box on Rhapsody for PPC.
> > 
> > Overall some very exciting news from Apple particularly the iconfirmation
> > that there will be a "native" Rhapsody for Intel and the news about no
> > licensing fees.
> > 
> > Hope the formatting of this came OK - had to telnet directly to my
> > news server to get this out from here.
> > 
> > - Chris
> > cwolf@wolfware.com
> > 
> > 
> 
> *drool*
> 
> Wow.
> 
> *drool some more*
> 
> _WOW._
> 
> *tear comes to eye*
> 
> Pardon me while I just sit here in awe for a while.  The only thing I'd like 
> more than this is for the Openstep Developer to have a Java -> native 
> compiler, as well as Obj-C++ -> Java bytecode compiler, so that you can pick 
> any of the 4 languages (C, C++, Obj-C, Java) and deploy for native Win95, NT, 
> Rhapsody Intel, Rhapsody PPC, or as an Applet, all with the same rich 
> programming model.  (well, that, and to have them document how 3rd parties 
> can develop their own OS personalities to run alongside Rhapsody and the Blue 
> Box, as well as announce more hardware platforms (esp Sparc... I really want 
> to be able to upgrade my Sparcstation from Openstep 4.1 to Rhapsody :-}  )
> 
> But so far they're heading in exactly the right direction.  I'm quite happy 
> with the way things are going, and I plan to continue backing them as a 
> customer.
> 
> 
> --
> John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
> =========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
> Smalltalk == Astronaut's tools. Awkward at first, but exceptional design
> C++ == A hammer. A SLEDGEHAMMER. Not cast metal, a big rock on a stick.

-- 
Tom Condon
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From: "Stephen R. Anderson" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:07:41 +0100
Organization: Dept. of Linguistics, Yale University
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I didn't notice any mention of "academic bundle" pricing in Apple's
press release about OS 4.2. Does anyone know if this policy will
continue for 4.2 (and any future pre-rhapsody versions)?

--Steve Anderson
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From: Eric Levenez 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 14 May 1997 19:15:10 GMT
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tcondon@isp.net (Tom Condon) wrote:
>Don't forget to mention Yellow-Box for MacOS.  Yes its true!! Develop for
>Yellow-Box and your app will run everywhere!!!!!! 
>
>Apple is back!!!

No, NeXT is there !

-- 

--------------------------------------------------------------------
ric Lvnez              "Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas"
mailto:levenez@club-internet.fr              Publius Vergilius Maro,
(NeXTMail, MIME)                                   Georgica, II-489
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From: jklein@freon.artificial.com (jon klein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help with NXStream/Text
Date: 14 May 97 15:34:04 GMT
Organization: University of Massachusetts, Amherst
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I must really be missing something, but I cannot find this in the 
docs, and I cannot find anything in the appkit header files that 
could help me with this. 

Quite simply, I've got a ScrollView with a Text object, and I need 
to get it in to a generic char array.  The only way I can see to 
do this is to get an NXStream with the stream: method.  

My problem now is that I cannot for the life of me find how to write
from an NXStream or NXTextStream to a char array.

Can anybody give me the solution to this?  I'm sure it's simple,
I just can't find it!

On a slightly related topic, I'd really just like to have a Text 
object by itself -- without the scroll bar area.  The application
will never need more than the space I've made for the object already,
but a TextField is too small.  Just aesthetically speaking, is there 
anything I can do?

Thanks in advance!

--

-jon klein, 
jklein@freon.artificial.com
NeXTmail welcome
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 14 May 1997 20:35:23 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>ric Lvnez              "Felix qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas"
>mailto:levenez@club-internet.fr              Publius Vergilius Maro,
>(NeXTMail, MIME)                                   Georgica, II-489
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>


"Happy is he who is able to know the cause of things" or somesuch?

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 
Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help with NXStream/Text
Date: 14 May 1997 20:48:51 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 14
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jon klein writes
> Quite simply, I've got a ScrollView with a Text object, and I need 
> to get it in to a generic char array.

You have a grudge against the getSubstring: method? 8^)

Seriously, ask the Text for its textLength, malloc(textLength + 1), 
then pass the malloc'ed area to getSubstring, with start = 0 and 
length = textLength.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:35:28 +0200
Organization: University of Bonn, Germany
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Hello Christopher!

Christopher Wolf :
> They also mentioned that there will be both Server and Client versions of
> Rhapsody.   The difference between them in either price or features was
> not explicitly mentioned.

There was this Q&A session and one question was about that.
The Answer was that the details will still be worked out, but that there
might be foreign network-protocol support (SMB?), remote admin stuff and
the like in the server version...

Dirk

-- 
         Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany
              http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
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From: "Charles F. Waltrip" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:57:53 -0400
Organization: The Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory
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cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:
> 
> I'm typing this from the WWDC show floor - just got done listening
> to Gil and Avie speak and they had some GREAT things to say.
> 
	[...]
> 
> They also showed some neat demos:
> 
> Saw Rhapsody running on Intel running a QuickDraw 3D app written in 
> JAVA.  Apple has promised 100% access to the OpenStep APIs and 
> functionality through java.
> 
This is OK (access to the APIs from Java) but is only analogous to
Microsoft offering access to ActiveX from Java.  I *suspect* it will
work for Java applications but not for Java applets.

What's really needed is for the OpenStep APIs to become full-fledged
Java classes whose bytecode may be executed within any JavaVM.  Then
OpenStep becomes the peerless environment for developing Java
applications or applets that can run on any platform's JavaVM.

Now I'm not saying that they're not planning on doing this; just that I
haven't seen anything that unambiguously says they ARE planning to do
it.  (And, of course, I'm saying it's needed.)

Chuck
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Annnounce: GX-TALK
Date: 14 May 1997 15:17:10 -0700
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[if this is a repeat, sorry. My server has yet to show that it has been
posted]


The folks at AIMED (Association for Independent Macintosh Engineers and
Developers) have very kindly set up a new GX discussion list:

GX-TALK.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO GX-TALK?
---------------------------------

To subscribe to GX-TALK proceed as follows:

     Send E-mail to:

           

     with anything in the subject line and the following command as the
     first (and only) line of the message body:

          SUBSCRIBE
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++












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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!
Date: 14 May 1997 22:59:04 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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rainer@wmax71.mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de (Rainer Frohnhfer) wrote:
>  Just came across this on the Apple WWDC site an thought I should
>  share the experience with you ... not that it is a nice one :(

> > OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 for Windows NT--at around U.S.$1,500,
> > per developer version OPENSTEP Enterprise Deployment starts at
> > around U.S.$12,899 per server pack OPENSTEP Developer for
> > Mach--U.S. $5,000 per developer version OPENSTEP User for
> > Mach--at around U.S. $800 per seat Enterprise Object Frameworks
> > (EOF) 2.1 for Mach--U.S. $500 per seat

>   The only environment to develop on, and they price it out of
>   the market!
>  Do they really believe I will buy NT for this?

What amazes me is...that I still get amazed by next/apple's CONSTANT
ability to make the most MORONIC marketing decisions of all time.
It's just shocking that I haven't been numbed by the constant
shocks...
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc.            ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer     mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming...   http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School         You're dangerous because you're honest
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From: Garance A Drosehn 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: WWDC Core OS News
Date: 14 May 1997 21:51:14 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
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cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
> I'm finally home after a long but exciting day at WWDC (and able
> to post from a real newsreader again :-)

I just wanted to mention that I appreciate these bulletins of
what's going on at the WWDC.  Thanks.

---
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: 15 May 1997 02:45:52 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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On 05/14/97, "tech" wrote:
>
>Only on 8500 and 8600, but not the 7500 and 7600 which have the same
>motherboards???

The statement was only on the 8500 and 8600.  I am not familiar with what the 
differences are between the 7500/7600 and the 8500/8600 so I can't speculate on 
what the reasons for not supporting the 7500/7600 are.  I do notice however that 
7500/7600 series does not even seem to be listed on Apple's web site which leads 
me to believe it's a discontinued product series which may be why Apple didn't 
mention it.

Many Mac develoipers are agitating for them to support the 9500/9600 series in 
the initial release.   Apple's position seems to be that it's feasible but would 
probably delay that release.

I asked whether the intial developer release would also be available for Intel 
since the drivers are already available and the answer (from a *NON-AUTHORATIVE* 
source) was a tentative yes.


- Chris



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

tp://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 15 May 1997 02:49:17 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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On 05/14/97, Dirk Theisen wrote:
>Hello Christopher!
>
>Christopher Wolf :
>> They also mentioned that there will be both Server and Client versions of
>> Rhapsody.   The difference between them in either price or features was
>> not explicitly mentioned.
>
>There was this Q&A session and one question was about that.
>The Answer was that the details will still be worked out, but that there
>might be foreign network-protocol support (SMB?), remote admin stuff and
>the like in the server version...
>
>Dirk

Another thing mentioned at a differnet session was that the server version MIGHT 
have additional file system options such as striping, mirroring and journaling.

>-- 
>         Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany
>              http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: Steven_Woolgar@Claris.com (Steven Woolgar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: ProjectBuilder Question
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 03:53:29 GMT
Organization: Claris Corporation
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5le199$csu$3@news.apple.com>
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"Bill Keller"  wrote:


>When I first installed ProjectBuilder, it would open nib files when I
>clicked on them.  Now when I click, it opens up an explorer window with the
>contents of the nib (directory), and I then have to select objects.nib from
>there.  What happened, and how can I fix it?

>Jeez, I hope Rhapsody has file wrappers......

You have associated .nib with IExplorer.  The easiest way to fix this
is to open up regedit.exe and find the .nib entry.  Delete it, exit
regedit.  Double click on a little nib file and you will be prompted
to find the app that knows about nib files.  Selected project builder.


Woolie
Claris


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From: alex@_nospam_EagleChair.com (Aleksei M. Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:13:45 -0500
Organization: Web Information Solutions
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In article <5lcr5f$87i$1@majipoor.cygnus.com>, jrudd@cygnus.com wrote:

: In <01bc607d$347cbda0$1978c4ce@mercury.inlink.com> "tech" wrote:
: > 
: > Only on 8500 and 8600, but not the 7500 and 7600 which have the same
: > motherboards???
: > 
: > 
: 
: Maybe it's a case of "only supported on 8500 and 8600, other systems used at 
: your own risk, no guarantee of anything working/porting".  Or maybe the 7500 
: and 7600 have peripherals that aren't going to have driver support (I'm not 
: that familiar with the line) in the developers release?
: 
: What other systems _ought_ be transparently compatible with the 8500 and
: 8600, except for their peripherals?
: 

Well, I am VERY dissapointed that my 9500 won't work...but I know why: no
on board video. It requires a PCI card for video.

-- 
Web Information Solutions  

Just take the _spam_ out of my email to reply...
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From: yannick buisson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help with NXStream/Text
Date: 15 May 1997 06:05:29 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <5le939$bnh@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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+ I must really be missing something, but I cannot find this in the 
+ docs, and I cannot find anything in the appkit header files that 
+ could help me with this. 

+ Quite simply, I've got a ScrollView with a Text object, and I need 
+ to get it in to a generic char array.  The only way I can see to 
+ do this is to get an NXStream with the stream: method.  

+ My problem now is that I cannot for the life of me find how to write
+ from an NXStream or NXTextStream to a char array.

+ Can anybody give me the solution to this?  I'm sure it's simple,
+ I just can't find it!

Instaed of working with NXStream, you can simply use a char array.
Look at the intuitive example below :

int 	length;
Text	*desc;
char *buffer;

length = [desc textLength];
if( length != 0 )
{
	buffer = (char *)calloc(1000,sizeof(char));
	[(Text *)desc getSubstring:buffer start:0 length: length];
	strcat(buffer,"\0");
	[new 	setObject:[NSString stringWithCString:buffer] \
			forKey:@"ART_DESC"];
}

In fact you ask the Text Object for its text length. After that, you just 
get a string corresponding to the leght of your text.

+ On a slightly related topic, I'd really just like to have a Text 
+ object by itself -- without the scroll bar area.  The application
+ will never need more than the space I've made for the object already,
+ but a TextField is too small.  Just aesthetically speaking, is there 
+ anything I can do?

In the Text Class, there are some methods that allow you to put or remove
the scroller .... See the setHorizResizable

I hope this will help you ...


YANNICK


----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 05 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 05 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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Subject: Re: financial software
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <33700BD8.EAB9723C@fas.harvard.edu> <3379905a.0@epflnews.epfl.ch>
In-Reply-To: <3379905a.0@epflnews.epfl.ch>
From: marco@sente.nospam.ch (Marco Scheurer)
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Date: 15 May 97 08:17:28 GMT
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On 05/14/97, I wrote:
[...]
>
>In Reusable Object Models by Martin Fowler (Addison Wesley, 1997), 
[...]

Sorry to follow-up on my own post, but the reference I gave to 
Fowler's book is wrong. The title of the book is Analysis Patterns 
(Reusable Object Models is a subtitle).
-- 
Marco Scheurer (marco@sente.ch)
Sen:te

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From: decoy_id@stop_junk_on_the.net (Lee Altenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!
Date: 15 May 1997 10:12:55 GMT
Organization: MHPCC
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In <5lcoh1$3k1@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> Rainer Frohnher writes
> > [NT developer pricing down, Mach pricing still very high]
> > The only environment to develop on, and they price it out of the market!
> >  Do they really believe I will buy NT for this?
> 

Apple needs to be aware of the economies of increasing returns that operate in 
the technical sector, i.e. market share is everything.  Increasing market share 
is the only means for survival.  Which means that Apple needs to count revenue 
losses due to INSANELY LOW PRICES for OpenStep 4.2/Mach as capitalization costs. 
 By "insanely low prices" I mean
$299	for OpenStep 4.2/Mach User/Developer Commercial
$99		for OpenStep 4.2/Mach User Commercial
$99		for OpenStep 4.2/Mach User/Developer Academic bundle

Generating EXCITEMENT is more important now than immediate revenues.  And these 
prices would generate excitement.  Because Rhapsody will soon make 4.2 obsolete 
with its additional integrated Macintosh technology, there will be substantial 
upgrade revenue once Rhapsody comes out.  The larger number of users/developers 
that were seeded with cheap 4.2 will, I aver, generate more revenue than the 
foolish NeXT, Inc.ish prices we see now.
--
=======================================================================
Lee Altenberg

Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office:	Maui High Performance Computing Center
		550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
Phone:	(808) 879-5077 x 296 (work), (808) 879-5018 (fax)
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From: brouwer@minnie.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klaus Brouwer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: 15 May 1997 10:59:03 GMT
Organization: Informatik, Uni Stuttgart, Germany
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In <5laoo2$l1k$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> cwolf@wolfware.com writes:

>Just got back from another gerat WWDC session - Technical Overview of
>Rhapsody.

>The most interesting info:

>2) We saw the "work-in-progress" on the New UI
>- horizontal menu bars (no word on pop-up or tear-off menus yet)

Oh no! Please stick with the vertical menues! NeXTstep is the only system I 
know, where "Quit" and "Hide" are not part of the "File"-Menu - because these
commands have nothing to do with files.
More generally: the NeXT-style allow commands (and not only submenus) to be 
part of the top level menu hierarchy. This is a feature, not a bug!
Besides: what happens if you have to access a subsubmenu on a Mac/Windows/X?
You have to drag to the right! 
Why not doing this right from the start?


Think about it.
		Klaus

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From: julian @ whitetower.demon.co.uk (Julian Regel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:33:52 GMT
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cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:

>- horizontal menu bars (no word on pop-up or tear-off menus yet)
>- Mac style window frames (including window shade functionality)

I can imagine these being configurable with the Appearance Manager so
NeXT users can get a more "traditional" look.

>- NeXT style icons

This is the biggy, and it suggests to me that Apple will allow users
to go completely NeXT (or at least allow for third party software to
do the same). Can you imagine trying to create a NeXT look when you
had nasty little Mac icons? (I'm calling Mac icons nasty when compared
with NeXT icons).

>- files/folders can be placed on desktop background - dock will go awat

But you can load your own dock? It's already written!

>- scroll bars on right, proportional, arrows grouped (NeXT style)

How difficult is it to specify at runtime which side the scroll bars
are?

>- finder is just another app -extensible, replacable

That's good. UNIX doesn't force a user to do it one way, and it
appears that Rhapsody doesn't either.

>9) Rhapsody for Intel - same user experience as Rhapsody for PPC except
>no Blue Box for MacOS compat.

Yay!!!! :-)

>- Chris
>cwolf@wolfware.com

Thanks Chris! I know I've been waiting a long time to hear about the
UI, and I bet I'm not the only one! :-)

Julian
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From: Tim Triemstra 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:34:23 -0400
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Charles F. Waltrip wrote:
> What's really needed is for the OpenStep APIs to become full-fledged
> Java classes whose bytecode may be executed within any JavaVM.  Then
> OpenStep becomes the peerless environment for developing Java
> applications or applets that can run on any platform's JavaVM.

Actually, the idea of making the base Java distribution bigger is not
something that gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling (all I want is the JFC and
bug fixes :)

However, I think it may be best to look at Apple's "exposing the
Rhapsody API to Java" as a good substitute to JNI.  I think the same
rules of cross platform Java apply - lowest common denominator (oops,
sorry, meant to say 100% pure :)  The only real thing that I see Java
API's for the yellow-box bringing to the table is an interface to allow
existing Java apps to be run as part of a more complex system which may
require native code.  Games written in Java for instance may be
distributed with native to yellow-box calls along with their pure-Java
counterparts.  Perhaps that is (as you aluded to) a goal of Apple
eventually.  However, making these yellow-box API's pure Java as
distributed with the JDK is not a good goal because it bloats the base
for no good reason.

Also, for things like speed intensive apps, it would be nice to simply
be able to code in Java and produce a system dependant, optimized
executable.  One day that code may be portable but for now, something
like the OpenStep model requires that the API's be brought all the way
out to Java (as opposed to something like SuperCede which links binary
.DLL files which wouldn't work on Intel, Windows and PowerPC.)

Nice thoughts, I just want OpenStep for Mach/Intel to sell for less than
$5000 so I can get started.  Also, a release of that JDK might be nice
:)

Tim Triemstra
TimT@asiatlanta.com
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From: see@address.in.signature (Martin-Gilles Lavoie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:20:56 -0500
Organization: Internet-Login
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In article <5lcoh1$3k1@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:

> Rainer Frohnher writes
> > [NT developer pricing down, Mach pricing still very high]
> > The only environment to develop on, and they price it out of the market!
> >  Do they really believe I will buy NT for this?
> 
> You might want to try developing under OPENSTEP/NT before making a final 
> judgment. It's not as bad as you think. And my experience is that writing 
> for NT gives you the greatest portability; i.e., some code that runs on 
> Mach still needs to be tweaked on NT, whereas NT-developed code almost 
> always compiles clean on Mach.

And for a lot less money, you can get yourself a used NeXT computer w/
NeXTSTEP 3.2 installed, start developing, and then migrate to Rhapsody as
it becomes available.  You might actually find a used NeXT station w/
NeXTSTEP/Mach 4.x on it.  If you're lucky enough to have gone to WWDC,
then you'll have the software for free.

-- 
 Martin-Gilles Lavoie       |    "No!  Try not.  Do!  or do not
  mouser@zercom.net         |     There is no try."
www.zercom.net/~mouser/     |     --Yoda on error handling
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From: steven_woolgar@claris.com (Steven Woolgar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [ANN] WWDC Preview of CW Latitude
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:11:15 GMT
Organization: Claris Corporation
Lines: 16
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fraktus@arkaos.be (FraKtus) wrote:

>In article ,
>MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) wrote:
>> CodeWarrior Latitude:
>Could we have more informations about prices ?

The information presented in the latest MacTech magazine suggests that
$399 will be the price.  They say that there will be no licencing
fees.



Woolie
Claris

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From: steven_woolgar@claris.com (Steven Woolgar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [ANN] WWDC Preview of CW Latitude
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:12:46 GMT
Organization: Claris Corporation
Lines: 19
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spambait@hoult.actrix.gen.nz (Bruce Hoult NOT FOR EMAIL) wrote:

>MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron) writes:
>> CodeWarrior Latitude:
>>
>> -Is a porting tool which allows you to quickly move existing Mac OS 7.X
>> applications to UNIX, and soon Rhapsody.
>
>Will it work with MkLinux?

From what I read on their website () they
do not support Linux.

Hey, but maybe you should make a request.  They are very open to
suggestions.


Woolie
Claris
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From: steven_woolgar@claris.com (Steven Woolgar)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep for NT and the Win32 logo...
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:15:40 GMT
Organization: Claris Corporation
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Steven_Woolgar@Claris.com (Steven Woolgar) wrote:

>I am looking into a few issues for some of my future openstep
>development.  One of the promises of Rhapsody is that it provides a
>good cross-platform object framework.
>
>I've been playing with the demos that come with 4.2 Enterprise and
>have found that none of the demos handle the core Win32 dynamic
>appearances (like dynamic scrollbar sizing and colour changes to any
>part of the OS).
>
>Is there something that can be done to respond to system changes like
>those described?

After a brief note from Greg, I would like to clarify my question.  I
would like to know if OSNT handles DYNAMIC appearance changes.  That
means without restarting the app.

Things like chaning the size of the scrollbar while the app is
running.

Another question I had is:

  Does OSNT support real floating palette windows?




Woolie
Claris

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:40:39 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <337A3561.A5B57AC9@aurora.jhuapl.edu>,
waltrip@aurora.jhuapl.edu wrote:

> This is OK (access to the APIs from Java) but is only analogous to
> Microsoft offering access to ActiveX from Java.  I *suspect* it will
> work for Java applications but not for Java applets.

  Actually I think it's a boon!  Let's say you're targeting the PPC
platform and have to weight bloating the code with other platform exe's,
or leave them out and have to support custom versions.

  Well with Java calls to the OS libs, I simply put in a PPC compile, and
a Java bytecode compile.  End of problem.

> What's really needed is for the OpenStep APIs to become full-fledged
> Java classes whose bytecode may be executed within any JavaVM.

  To do this you'd need to sell the 100% Java crew on OS, and have them
licence it.  Good luck.

> Now I'm not saying that they're not planning on doing this; just that I
> haven't seen anything that unambiguously says they ARE planning to do
> it.  (And, of course, I'm saying it's needed.)

  I would agree, mostly because the current classes for Java just SUCK SO BAD.

Maury
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Academic Pricing Has _NOT_ changed for 4.2 (was Re: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!)
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:55:29 -0700
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Sorry for the xpost, but I don't know where this thread has spawned

---->FOLLOWUPS set to csn.misc<----

I called the number on 

http://product.info.apple.com/pr/press.releases/1997/q3/970513.pr.rel.openstep.html#OPENSTEP 

"The OPENSTEP family of products are available direct from Apple Computer,
Inc. For sales information call 1-800-879-6398." (aka "try-next")

I went through their little voicemail hoops for find out about the
academic bundle only to get a message to call Object Technologies (which
doesn't exist).  So I called back and stayed "on the line for further
information" (pressed #4) and talked with a woman who I told about the
wrong 800# and then she put me over to the telemarketing folks.

The woman I talked with there (whose name I did not get) said that I
should contact my bookstore.  When I informed her that my bookstore had
never heard of NeXT or OpenStep, she said that it would all go through
NACS corp (www.nacscorp.com).  OpenStep 4.2 was officially released
Tuesday, but she did not know how long it would take to get through to the
academic sources. (It is not yet listed on NACS' web pages)

She confirmed that the academic pricing has not changed, it is still $299
for user & dev.

I called NACS-corp (1-800-622-7498 x2573 for inbound sales) and they said
it will take "a few weeks" before it gets to them.  She said that as far
as she knew the pricing had not changed but (she also said) that doesn't
mean much as it could change when it arrives.

So there we have it folks, the pricing for OpenStep/Academic seems to have
remained the same, but (for the overly cynical) it will be a few weeks
before anyone can say for sure. 

TjL, your friendly neighborhood 800# dialing, horse's-mouth seeking,
OpenStep likin' Usenet reader...

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From: andreas@lynet.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How many levels are possible for auxilary NibFile-Loading
Date: 15 May 1997 19:10:05 GMT
Organization: Offenes Netz Luebeck e.V.
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Hello,

I have implemented a PersonController in my MainNibFile. It has a method 
showMainWin wich looks like the following:

- (void)showMainWin:(id)sender
{
    if (!mainWin) [NSBundle loadNibNamed:@"Person" owner:self];
    [mainWin makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
}

In the NibFile Person.nib, I have set PersonController as the Files Owner, 
Everything worked as expected.
Then I defined a class PersonAddController and instantiated it in Person.Nib. 
I gave this second controller a method like the above too and created a new 
NibFile PersonAddController.nib in wich I set PersonAddController as the 
FileOwner and created a Window in it for entering some attributes for a new 
person.
This PersonAddNibFile should be loaded with the same procedure as the first, 
when I press on the AddButton in the Window of Person.nib but this didn't 
work. I do not get an errormessage or so, it just does not work and I have no 
idea why.
Must all ControllerObjects for auxilary Nibfiles be in the MainNibFile?

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: 15 May 1997 13:47:45 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 60
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There are several more sessions specifically on the "Rhapsody User Experience" 
scheduled for later today and tomorrow and I hope to get some more info and the 
opportunity to ask some questions.   Will keep you posted on as much as I can 
find out....

On 05/14/97, Julian Regel wrote:
>cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:
>
>>- horizontal menu bars (no word on pop-up or tear-off menus yet)
>>- Mac style window frames (including window shade functionality)
>
>I can imagine these being configurable with the Appearance Manager so
>NeXT users can get a more "traditional" look.
>
>>- NeXT style icons
>
>This is the biggy, and it suggests to me that Apple will allow users
>to go completely NeXT (or at least allow for third party software to
>do the same). Can you imagine trying to create a NeXT look when you
>had nasty little Mac icons? (I'm calling Mac icons nasty when compared
>with NeXT icons).
>
>>- files/folders can be placed on desktop background - dock will go awat
>
>But you can load your own dock? It's already written!
>
>>- scroll bars on right, proportional, arrows grouped (NeXT style)
>
>How difficult is it to specify at runtime which side the scroll bars
>are?
>
>>- finder is just another app -extensible, replacable
>
>That's good. UNIX doesn't force a user to do it one way, and it
>appears that Rhapsody doesn't either.
>
>>9) Rhapsody for Intel - same user experience as Rhapsody for PPC except
>>no Blue Box for MacOS compat.
>
>Yay!!!! :-)
>
>>- Chris
>>cwolf@wolfware.com
>
>Thanks Chris! I know I've been waiting a long time to hear about the
>UI, and I bet I'm not the only one! :-)
>
>Julian
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: kennel@nospam.lyapunov.ucsd.edu (Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply))
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: News from WWDC - free OpenStep runtime for Windows
Date: 15 May 1997 20:20:59 GMT
Organization: University of California at San Diego
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On 14 May 97 11:12:35 +0000, FJ van Wingerde  wrote:
:
:Thing is, knowing what I know about OpenStep, I wonder how
:well MacOS 8 can actually host Yellow. I mean, multi-threaded
:finders, fine, nice, thank you Apple, but that doesn't suddenly
:make that OS a rich and fast message passing environment
:with solid threads and speddy file work. Correct me if I am wrong, 
:but it seems to me like before we hit Allegro, Mac OS will 
:need so much iinternal work that it might end u internally
:resembling Rhapsody lot.

I suspect that "Allegro" may merely be the Mach kernel and blue box.

Same product as a stripped down Rhapsody, different marketing. 

-- 
Matthew B. Kennel/Institute for Nonlinear Science, UCSD/
Don't blame me, I voted for Emperor Mollari. 
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help with NXStream/Text
Date: 15 May 1997 21:10:44 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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In <3379db6c.0@192.33.12.30> jon klein wrote:
> On a slightly related topic, I'd really just like to have a Text 
> object by itself -- without the scroll bar area.  The application
> will never need more than the space I've made for the object already,
> but a TextField is too small.  Just aesthetically speaking, is there 
> anything I can do?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
Just drag a custom view from the palette and set its class to Text.

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From: ahoesch@on-luebeck.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Creating Nested NibFiles - multiple levels
Date: 15 May 1997 23:38:19 GMT
Organization: LyNet Kommunikation und Netzwerkdienste GmbH
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Hello,

I have implemented a PersonController in my MainNibFile. It has a method 
showMainWin wich looks like the following:

- (void)showMainWin:(id)sender
{
    if (!mainWin) [NSBundle loadNibNamed:@"Person" owner:self];
    [mainWin makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
}

In the NibFile Person.nib, I have set PersonController as the Files Owner, 
Everything worked as expected.
Then I defined a class PersonAddController and instantiated it in Person.Nib. 
I gave this second controller a method like the above too and created a new 
NibFile PersonAddController.nib in wich I set PersonAddController as the 
FileOwner and created a Window in it for entering some attributes for a new 
person.
This PersonAddNibFile should be loaded with the same procedure as the first, 
when I press on the AddButton in the Window of Person.nib but this didn't 
work. I do not get an errormessage or so, it just does not work and I have no 
idea why.
Must all ControllerObjects for auxilary Nibfiles be in the MainNibFile?

Andreas Hoeschler
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From: ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:26:04 +0200
Organization: Syndetics Research
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tech  wrote:

> Only on 8500 and 8600, but not the 7500 and 7600 which have the same
> motherboards???

I'm pretty sure that it is the processor which is the critical factor.
The motherboards are indeed identical (I had the two of them lying in
front of me just the other week (7500/8500)). So, you just upgrade your
PPC601 on the 7500 to a PPC604(e), upgrades starting at US$199 I
believe, and you're all set.

Luc
-- 
Syndetics Research     | Authors of Synema(tm) Director (c) 1992-1996.
Herderstraat 1         | Thesaurus construction software for the 
3740 Bilzen - Belgium  | Information Retrieval industry. 
####################################################################
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From: "Bruce J. Dolby" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Looking for: tiff to gif / ps to gif
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:15:55 +0200
Organization: Alcatel SEL
Lines: 7
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I'm looking for a command line converter that can convert
either tiff or ps to gif format.
Does anyone know where I might find such a converter?

MegaThanks

BJD
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From: interbbs@hotmail.com (Inter-BBS)
Subject: FreeNetAccessWorldwide
Message-ID: <337b32e6.3194273@bang-olufsen.dk>
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:07:55 GMT
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Free internet connection worldwide via our BBS.
Please visit as much as possible our sponsor pages,
its how we are paid...
Follow the  link and enjoy...

http://www.cybercity.hko.net/LA/interbbs/index.htm

aababcabcd1121231234

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Free internet connection worldwide via our BBS.
Please visit as much as possible our sponsor pages,
its how we are paid...
Follow the  link and enjoy...

http://www.cybercity.hko.net/LA/interbbs/index.htm

aababcabcd1121231234

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Creating Nested NibFiles - multiple levels
Date: 16 May 1997 02:02:56 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 05/15/97, ahoesch@on-luebeck.de wrote:
>
>Hello,
>
>I have implemented a PersonController in my MainNibFile. It has a method 
>showMainWin wich looks like the following:
>
>- (void)showMainWin:(id)sender
>{
>    if (!mainWin) [NSBundle loadNibNamed:@"Person" owner:self];
>    [mainWin makeKeyAndOrderFront:sender];
>}
>
>In the NibFile Person.nib, I have set PersonController as the Files Owner, 
>Everything worked as expected.
>Then I defined a class PersonAddController and instantiated it in Person.Nib. 
>I gave this second controller a method like the above too and created a new 
>NibFile PersonAddController.nib in wich I set PersonAddController as the 
>FileOwner and created a Window in it for entering some attributes for a new 
>person.
>This PersonAddNibFile should be loaded with the same procedure as the first, 
>when I press on the AddButton in the Window of Person.nib but this didn't 
>work. I do not get an errormessage or so, it just does not work and I have no 
>idea why.
>Must all ControllerObjects for auxilary Nibfiles be in the MainNibFile?

No.  What you describe should work just fine.  There's a bug in your 
implementation someplace.  (Perhaps something simple like you forgot to hook up 
the Add button to the PersonController or something..)

- Chris

>Andreas Hoeschler
-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: benh@hotmail.com (Future-NET)
Subject: Spy people on the Net
Message-ID: <337b9606.3508114@bang-olufsen.dk>
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Organization: Future-NET
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 23:36:33 GMT
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I present here my two most recent software which I hope they interest you.
they are progammed by Turbo C++ and run under Windows(3.11 and 95).
here is a short description of these two software.

1-Robot Spy 1.0
at my knowledge, this software is the first and the unique of its kind. 
This software allow you to spy your friends who are on the net at the same time
of you, it permits to see exactly what they do on their screen, pixel by pixel,
anywhere, in the world, at the condition they are connected to the internet.
how does-it work?
its simple, you send a file to the person you want to spy telling to him its a 
game or everythings else, the objectif is this person run the file. from this time,
a batch file is installed on his computor, and everytime this person use internet,
this batch connects him secretly on our server.
on your side, you , after the installation of the other part of the software every time
you want, you can connect on our server with your password and have the list of all the 
persons who received your batch and who are connected at this time. 
the only thing you have to do is to click on the name of the person you want to spy.
a window opens containing exactly the screen of the person spied, you can have
ten pictures per second with 256 colors, if you switch to balck and white mode you can
onbtain a real time sequence, approximatly 30 pictures by second.

Robot Mailer 1.1
The message you are reading presently  is sent to more then 20,000 newsgroups with 
this software. This program automates FreeAgent, and reach with a connection of 28,8 Kbauds
5,000 news per hours. It can also find a maximum of 50,000 e-mail adresses from  internet and
send a message in 4 or 5 hours.  You can obtain with this sofware the most powerful tool of
mass transmittion on the internet.

Robot Spy 1.0..................20 US$
Robot Mailer 1.1..............20 US$
Both..................................30 US$

Im sorry i cant accept credit card, but you can send an international money order to:

Ben Hedi Nassef
1481 Ste-Catherine est #7
Montreal, PQ, H2L-2H9
Canada

Dont forget to include your e-mail on a paper, you receice the software ordered in your
e-mail the day we receive the money order.

####################################################################
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Date: Fri May 16 12:05:31 1997

Original subject was:
Spy people on the Net

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Date: Fri May 16 12:22:59 1997

Original subject was:
FreeNetAccessWorldwide

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EMP spam cancelled by hweede@berlin.snafu.de. The Breidbart index was 2557.
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Subject was: FreeNetAccessWorldwide!.
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Message-ID: <337C4751.49F5@nice.ch>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:38:57 +0200
From: Philippe Robert 
Organization: Dept. of CS, University of Berne, Switzerland
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David Evans wrote:

> >10) FAT Binaries will be supported for Rhapsody for Intel and PPC!!!!
> >
> 
>   !!! indeed!
>

That is no surprise sincer this is a feature of Mach

sweet dreams, Philippe
-- 
Philippe C.D. Robert CS Student @ Uni Bern
Member of NiCE - Swiss NeXT User Group
NeXTmail & MIME are welcome...
http://www.stonesoft.ch/h_phil.html
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: SuperDebugger on OS4.0
Message-ID: <1997May16.102522.47506@yogi.urz.unibas.ch>
From: frank@ifi.unibas.ch
Date: 16 May 97 10:25:22 MET
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Hi everybody,

I'm having trouble with the SuperDebugger application version 3.9 under 
OPENSTEP4.0 on all supported platforms!

When I load an executable, I receive the following error message:

set view-prog SDClient19364
view
GDB is free software and you are welcome to distribute copies of it
 under certain conditions; type "show copying" to see the conditions.
There is absolutely no warranty for GDB; type "show warranty" for details.
GDB 4.14  (NEXTSTEP 4.0 --target m68k), Copyright 1995 Free Software 
Foundation, Inc...
Reading symbols from /www/utils/GenPage...done.

(gdb) show dir
Source directories searched: /www/utils:$cdir:$cwd
(gdb) set view-prog SDClient19364
(gdb) view
Could not connect to view_program SDClient19364.
You may need to start the view_program.
(gdb) 


It tells me that it can't connect to the view_program. 
Great. Which view programm should it connect to (the one given is 
obviously wrong!)?
According to Impact (the makers/marketers of SuperDebugger), this version 
is supposed to run under OS4.0! Efforts to get them to comment the error 
have failed. I hope someone out there has a solution to this.

Thanks for any help,

-Robert

-- 
Institut fuer Informatik           tel  +41 (0)61 321 99 67
Universitaet Basel                 fax. +41 (0)61 321 99 15
Robert Frank                                        
Mittlere Strasse 142    rfc822: frank@ifi.unibas.ch (NeXT,MIME mail ok)  
CH-4056 Basel       X400: S=frank;OU=ifi;O=unibas;P=switch;A=arcom;C=ch
Switzerland  
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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:12:50 +0200
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Luc Dubois :

> I'm pretty sure that it is the processor which is the critical factor.

So, a 7600/132 (with 604) will probably work?!
Why don't they tell?

Dirk

-- 
         Student of computer science, University of Bonn, Germany
              http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
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From: johns@efn.org (John Selhorst)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:09:24 -0700
Organization: himself
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In article <3379B00F.A8E4BD3A@asiatlanta.killspam.com>, Tim Triemstra
 wrote:

>cwolf@wolfware.com wrote:
>> Developer Release 1 - Summer 97
>> - Will be seeded to all developers
>> - Stable enough to use as a development environment
>> - Will ONLY run on PowerMac 8500 and 8600
>> - Will not ship with Driver developmentt tools
>> - No blue box
>
>Again, no mention of Java in that release.  I don't currently own any
>Macs (a bunch of black NeXT hardware though.)  I'd go out and buy a
>PowerMac when the developers release comes out if they include Java on
>the box.  All I'm programming now is Java anyway, I 'd prefer a more
>stable box than the NT (and hopefully faster.)

I am pretty sure JDK 1.1 will be on the developer release, I think it is
already done, but they are working on optimizations and adding Apple's JIT
compiler.  There were a couple of different sessions on Java in yellow
box.  I don't think they will have the Java<->Objective-C bridge done
until next year, though.

Johnny
-- 
Would the Clinton administration ease up on encryption export if I donated $100 to the DNC?
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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Windoze-style Tree Control (bleech!)
Date: 16 May 1997 15:38:02 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 23
Message-ID: <5lhv0q$cgt@concorde.ctp.com>
Reply-To: dcoyle@ctp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.44.75.195

Hi all.

I need to get my hands on a Windoze-style tree control for an OpenStep/NT  
projects (client requires it).

NeXT have their NSTreeView / NSTreeCell and NSTreeItem (see the latest  
EOModeller), but these aren't available to the public.

I suppose the best approach would be to convert & customize RZBrowserCell  
and put them into a NiftyMatrix, then make an EOAssociation object to go  
with it....  I'm just wondering if anyone has started down the same path  
first...

thanks in advance

 Dave

-------
 /\/\   Dave Coyle   dcoyle@ctp.com
/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / /  118/119 Lower Baggot Street
 \/\/   Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
        Tel: +353 1 607 9008    WWW:  http://www.ctp.com
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help with NXStream/Text
Date: 16 May 1997 10:21:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Lines: 43
Message-ID: 
References: <5le939$bnh@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
X-Posted-By: @206.165.44.46 (english)
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yannick said:

[question about text]

> length = [desc textLength];
> if( length != 0 )
> {
> 	buffer = (char *)calloc(1000,sizeof(char));
> 	[(Text *)desc getSubstring:buffer start:0 length: length];
> 	strcat(buffer,"\0");
> 	[new 	setObject:[NSString stringWithCString:buffer] \
> 			forKey:@"ART_DESC"];
> }
> 
> In fact you ask the Text Object for its text length. After that, you just

> get a string corresponding to the leght of your text.

One subtle point that is currently biting me with GX in HyperCard: Unicode
text allows a valid character encoding of '\0', so if your text-string
contains Unicode, the standard C string may be prematurely terminated by a
valid character.

For international string handling, don't use C strings for text, use the
{count,  char*} strategy instead.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO GX-TALK?
---------------------------------

To subscribe to GX-TALK proceed as follows:

     Send E-mail to:

           

     with anything in the subject line and the following command as the
     first (and only) line of the message body:

          SUBSCRIBE
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Saving to Other Formats
Message-ID: <1997May16.075500.98222@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 16 May 97 07:55:00 MDT
Reply-To: edx@cc.usu.edu
Distribution: world
Nntp-Posting-Host: asy33.xy1.usu.edu
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9 Beta(i)
Lines: 21

I'm writing an application (NXCam) which extracts
frames from a Connectix QuickCam and displays
them.  This is up and running fine.  However, now
I would like to save these frames away to disk.  Saving
to TIFF is a piece of cake.  Just use the writeTiff: method
in the NXBitmapImageRep, and you're off to the races.

However, someone wants to use this as a source for
timed Web-page scenes (like a Web-cam), and JPEG
is a more commonly used format in Web pages than
TIFF.  So, my question is this: if I have another application
which can convert between TIFF and JPEG (like PixelMagician
or TIFFany), is there an easy way to use them to save
my scans to JPEG format ?

I'd appreciate any help or comments about this.

Thanks In Advance.



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From: Titus Wilke 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Visual Basic 5 PRO
Date: 16 May 1997 18:39:44 GMT
Organization: Oregon Technology Centers, Harbor OR, US
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <5li9lg$9o4@news.harborside.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: p04.br0.harborside.com

If anybody wants the source code for a program that I 
wrote in VB5PRO, and or the .EXE file, send $10 to:
Titus Wilke
#1 Ulrich Rd.
Prospect, OR  97536

The program is a timer that keeps track of how much time
you spend on the computer and you can log comments on 
what you did during that time.
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for: tiff to gif / ps to gif
Message-ID: <337CB19C.6C7@running-start.com>
From: Ralph Zazula 
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:12:28 -0700
Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com
References: <337C09AB.573C@pfh.sel.alcatel.de>
Organization: Running Start, Inc.
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Hi -

Check out 'epstotiff' on our web site http://www.running-start.com
(Products->Free Software).  It converts various formats to GIF, JPEG,
etc.


Bruce J. Dolby wrote:
> 
> I'm looking for a command line converter that can convert
> either tiff or ps to gif format.
> Does anyone know where I might find such a converter?
> 
> MegaThanks
> 
> BJD

-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com
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From: jalon@allege.ens.fr (Julien Jalon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for: tiff to gif / ps to gif
Date: 16 May 1997 20:39:14 GMT
Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris
Lines: 92
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In article <337C09AB.573C@pfh.sel.alcatel.de>,
Bruce J. Dolby  wrote:
>I'm looking for a command line converter that can convert
>either tiff or ps to gif format.
>Does anyone know where I might find such a converter?
>
>MegaThanks
>
>BJD

I wrote, just as a test (it's very bad source) a "generic" converter
using the facilities of NeXT filter :

--- genfilter.m ---
#import 
#import 
 
void main(int argc, char *argv[])
{
    id myPb;
    const NXAtom *list;
    NXStream *stream;
    const char *selectedType;
    char *data;
    int length;
    if(argc!=4)
    {
        printf("Usage: %s FILE NEWFORMAT OUTFILE\n",argv[0]);
        exit(0);
    }
    [Application new];
    myPb=[Pasteboard newByFilteringFile:argv[1]];
    list=[myPb types];
    if(!list) {
        printf("No filter available");
        [myPb free];
        [NXApp free];
        exit(0);
    }
    printf("available types :\n");
    while(*list) {
        printf("%s\n",*list);
        if(!strcmp(argv[2],*list))
        {
            selectedType=*list;
        }
        list++;
    }
    if(!selectedType)
    {
        printf("%s is not a goot type\n",argv[2]);
        [myPb free];
        [NXApp free];
        exit(0);
    }
    printf("selected type : \"%s\"\n",selectedType);
    printf("opening stream...\n");
    stream=[myPb readTypeToStream:selectedType];
    if(!stream)
    {
        printf("nothing read on stream\n");
        [myPb free];
        [NXApp free];
        exit(0);
    }
    printf("writing to \"%s\"\n",argv[3]);
    if(NXSaveToFile(stream,argv[3]))
    {
        printf("unable to save to \"%s\"\n",argv[3]);
        exit(0);
    }
    NXCloseMemory(stream,NX_FREEBUFFER);
    [myPb free];
    [NXApp free];
    exit(0);
}
--- enf of file ---

with this, you can do something like :
 ./genfilter foo.tiff "image format gif" foo.gif
if you have a filter tiff->gif (e.g. OmniImageFilter), it will work.
This is not the good answer to your question (the good answer is the
package pbmplus which have generic filter for pictures like tifftopnm,
ppmtogif, pstopnm,...) but I think the "NeXT" method is funnier and, of
course, more elegant :-)

--Julien
-- 
Julien Jalon					| Ecole normale superieure
jalon@clipper.ens.fr				| 45 rue d'Ulm
http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/	| 75230 Paris Cedex 05
						| FRANCE
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Please help with rld_load and rld_lookup !
Message-ID: <337CB632.5C4B@running-start.com>
From: Ralph Zazula 
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:32:02 -0700
Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com
References: <5lc6q4$6er$1@arcturus.ciril.fr>
Organization: Running Start, Inc.
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Etienne Klein wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am trying to port a code wich use dynamic loading of C library.
> I can easily load the file (at least rld_load retuns 1) but then I am stuck
> with the call to rld_lookup !
> 

I just looked through some code we use to load C libraries into TCL.  It
looks roughly like this (and seems to work):

    char *files[2];
    NXStream *s;

    files[0] = fileName;
    files[1] = NULL;

    s = NXOpenMemory(NULL, 0, NX_READWRITE);

    if(rld_load(s, NULL, files, NULL)) {
        char *buf;

        buf = malloc(strlen(sym1)+2);
        sprintf(buf, "_%s", sym1);
        rld_lookup(NULL, buf, (unsigned long *)proc1Ptr);

	...

        free(buf);
    }

    NXCloseMemory(s, NX_FREEBUFFER);

    return ...;
}
-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com
####################################################################
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From: Information
Subject: Metrics
Message-ID: <5107cd$121c9.9a@news.psrinc.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:28:09 GMT
Reply-To: Great Site
Lines: 2

Great Site URL:http://www.psrinc.com/metsys.htm


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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5107cd$121c9.9a@news.psrinc.com>
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From: "Margaret" 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,dc.jobs
Subject: NeXTSTEP Consultant Openings
Date: 17 May 1997 05:51:00 GMT
Organization: OnRamp Technologies, Inc.; ISP
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5752 comp.sys.next.misc:25868 comp.sys.next.programmer:24474

NeXTSTEP MENTORS AND DEVELOPERS

Object Systems Group is a OO technology-based consultancy that provides
 assistance to Global 1000 corporations. These clients have already made
the
 commitment to move to objects. That means that we can offer you the
opportunity to build robust infrastructures, develop good designs, and
 direct state of the art implementations for large scale OO projects.

Our Chief Technical Officer is Bruce Webster who has been involved
 in software engineering for 20 years and in commercial Object
Oriented Development since 1989.  Bruce has written numerous articles
 in technical publications and has also contributed to more than a
 dozen commerical software products.  His most recent books are The
 Art of Ware and The Pitfalls of Object-Oriented Development.
 
 Because OSG has a proven successful OO process and a reputation for
 excellence, we can keep you progressing in OO technology while you are
 making contractors wages.  OSG pays well, offers good benefits, and
 requires a minimum one year commitment.  Please visit our Web Site at
http://www.osgcorp.com

 PROCESS MENTORS
 Minimum five years total experience with one year NeXTStep or
 OpenStep. You will participate in the development of Object Models
 and will perform all the analysis and design functions for your
 team as well as educate team members in process, methods, and
 techniques.
 
 TECHNICAL MENTORS
 Minimum three years experience in NeXTSTEP with at least one of those in
a Mentoring role.  Also must have strong knowledge or experience with one
or more OO Methodologies.
 
 NeXTSTEP and or OpenStep Developers
 If you have a minimum of 2 years experience in a NeXTSTEP environment at
 any level, we want to talk to you. The project is a new development (no
 legacy issues).

 All work must be done on-site. 

 Email resume(No NeXTMAIL accepted) and current salary info in Word,
 TEXT, or ASCII to: margaret@osgcorp.com
 


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From: "bebeto.slip.wg.saar.de" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: boot-problems
Date: 17 May 1997 10:46:30 GMT
Organization: Yoyodyne Posting Systems, INN Lab.
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hi, my NeXT dont boot, he sends the message: ... loginwindow: could not 
find WindowServer. can anybody helps me.   Thanx Bebeto

####################################################################
From: enery@snap
Subject: high spirits
Organization: vl0-r
Message-ID: 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:08:56 -0700
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x-no-archive:yes

For who use pictures to communicate:

please click on


http://www.webcom.com/h49tld20/photo/prolab.html
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <8856863323226@digifix.com>
Date: 18 May 1997 03:57:15 GMT
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
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 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
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 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
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news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
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The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
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Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: RLG
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NeXT Developers => N. VA
Date: 15 May 1997 08:54:20 -0700
Organization: Princeton Information - N. VA
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <5lfbjc$p3s@drn.zippo.com>

Princeton Information, a Nationwide firm with over 500 consultants has cutting edge opportunities in Northern Virginia for:

NeXTStep Developers

Responsibilities include design and development of the common object model.

Work with other project teams to solidify the design of the common object model through the following development cycles:

	Requirement Analysis
	Functional Design
	Technical Design
	Construction
	Application Testing

Qualifications:

Application of OO design techniques and methodologies
3+ years C++ and/or Objective C programming experience
1+ Year UNIX/MACH Operating System experience
NeXTStep, OpenStep and Windows NT Operating System experience

Knowledge of major RDBMS (ORACLE)
Enterprise Objects Modeler (EOModeler), Enterprise Objects Framework* 2.0/3.0(EOF*), 
WebObjects 2.0/3.0*

e-mail your resume TODAY!

* "Perhaps the heart of WebObjects is Enterprise Objects Framework (EOF).  The EOF is used to manipulate data as it passes between your database, your Enterprise Objects, and the HTML interface in your WebObjects application.  The framework provides a valuable layer of abstraction for business logic.  Your code talks to the framework, so that an applications interface or back end database can be changed without having to alter business logic.

WebObjects has a very open architecture that is becoming even more open and is suitable for any large or sophisticated Web site." - Joshua Kerievsky
< http://www.next.com >

e-mail your resume TODAY!!! ====>  richg.princeton@internetmci.com

Fax=====>  (703) 556-9414
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From: jonasw@lysator.liu.se (Jonas Wallden)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: More news from WWDC - including UI info
Date: 18 May 1997 16:16:46 GMT
Organization: Linkping University, Sweden
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <5lna1e$m2q$1@newsy.ifm.liu.se>
References: <5laoo2$l1k$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <01bc607d$347cbda0$1978c4ce@mercury.inlink.com> <199705160726049219161@pool011-143.innet.be>
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.advocacy:68505 comp.sys.next.programmer:24480

ldubois@syndetics.be (Luc Dubois) writes:

>tech  wrote:
>
>> Only on 8500 and 8600, but not the 7500 and 7600 which have the same
>> motherboards???
>
>I'm pretty sure that it is the processor which is the critical factor.
>The motherboards are indeed identical (I had the two of them lying in
>front of me just the other week (7500/8500)).

You didn't look closely then. :-) The 8500 motherboard has some additional
circuits for PAL/NTSC video output, but apart from that they should be
identical. Don't know if the Apple ROMs are the same, but I doubt that
would make any difference to the Core OS.

My guess is that 7500/7600 wasn't mentioned because they are no longer
sold. The 9500/9600 uses a PCI video card and is therefore a different
design. The 7300 is also pretty close to the 7500/7600 although it lacks
the video input functionality.

>So, you just upgrade your PPC601 on the 7500 to a PPC604(e), upgrades
>starting at US$199 I believe, and you're all set.

Check out MacWorks, , for 604 processor cards
starting at US$79. Phase5, , also has a number of
competitively priced cards (e.g. US$550 for a 604e/180 and US$750 for a
604e/200) that should be easy to get here in Europe. On the other hand,
Gil Amelio says there will be low- and medium-priced Macs outperforming
today's fastest models in less than a year, so maybe it's better to start
saving for a new Mac.

...............  .......................  ...................................
 jonas wallden       internet e-mail            world wide web home page
   mac hacker     jonasw@lysator.liu.se    http://www.lysator.liu.se/~jonasw
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From: gvandyk@icon.co.za
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Memory Leaks using NSUnarchiver
Date: 19 May 1997 12:12:55 GMT
Organization: E.S. Systems cc (Financial Systems Development)
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <5lpg47$nd1$1@hermes.is.co.za>
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-10001-01

I am getting huge memory leaks using NSUnarchiver to decode NSData's.
I am using NextStep 3.3 with foundation and EOF.

Attached please find an example of how to reintroduce the problem. 
My Application class in this application is EOApplication so that I 
can
have the top level NSAutoreleasePool. I am linking against MallocDebug 
to
monitor the leaks and I have a simple panel that only has a button to
trigger the go: method the first time.

sArray,data and rArray are being autoreleased but NSUnarchiver still 
has
memory leaks.

Has somebody experienced the same type of problem, or am I missing
something somewhere?

It is very concerning to us, as a lot of our objects use NSUnarchiver 
to
store some of their data and to send data from one app to another 
using
NSData's. Our Memory leaks are huge and the only things that are still
leaking according to MallocDebug is "NSUnarchivers".

Could someone please give me some pointers on how to solve this 
problem?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.


Thanks in advance
Gerrit van Dyk
email: gvandyk@icon.co.za


Code to explain the problem:

H:
--

#import 

@class NSArray,NSData;

@interface Controller:Object
{
   NSArray      *sArray;
   NSArray      *rArray;
   NSData       *data;
   int          count;
}

- go:sender;

@end

M:
--

#import "Controller.h"
#import 

@implementation Controller

- init
{
   [super init];
   count = 0;
   return self;
}

- go:sender
{
   sArray = [NSArray arrayWithObjects:@"GVD",@"AL",@"ES",nil];
   data = [NSArchiver archivedDataWithRootObject:sArray];
   rArray = [NSUnarchiver unarchiveObjectWithData:data];
   if (count <= 1000)
   {
      [self perform: @selector(go:) with:self
            afterDelay:1 cancelPrevious:YES];
      count = 0;
   }
   return self;
}

@end

-- 
Regards,
Gerrit van Dyk
email: gvandyk@icon.co.za (NeXTMail welcome)
E.S. Systems cc  
The OBJECT is the ADVANTAGE

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Debugging PostScript
Date: 19 May 1997 17:01:48 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5lq11s$msl$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <87sozrdrix.fsf@bibliotech.com> <5lcn45$pok3@castor.cca.rockwell.com>
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On 05/14/97, Erik M. Buck wrote:
>In <87sozrdrix.fsf@bibliotech.com> Robert E. Brown wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone have nice PostScript debugging tools for OPENTSTEP?  I'm 
>looking
>
>Yap in the examples directory
>
Better still, Frank Siegert's BeYap.app

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 
Malcolm Crawford              (NeXTmail) malcolm@plsys.co.uk
Tel: +44 (0)1494 432422                        P & L Systems
Fax: +44 (0)1494 432478      http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Slider dilemma
Message-ID: <1997May19.081336.98290@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 19 May 97 08:13:35 MDT
Reply-To: edx@cc.usu.edu
Distribution: world
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I have a slider connected to an object Foo which
controls the value of one of Foo's parameters.  Now,
when I move the slider, it updates a text field with the
new value and messages Foo to change the value
of the parameter.  However, changing Foo's parameter
is a time consuming process.  So I would like to change
only the value in the text field as the slider is moved
until a mouseUp event.  At that point, I would like to
message Foo to change its value.

Is there a way to do this without having to subclass
the slider?  I'd rather not have to subclass the slider
because then I can't drag one in from the IB Palette
unless I go to the additional trouble of palettizing my
subclass.  Seems like a lot of trouble just to get a
different message sent for a mouse up than a slider
drag.

Thanks for any suggestions.

- EDX -

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From: brown@bibliotech.com (Robert E. Brown)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: menu mouse down events
Date: 19 May 1997 14:50:39 -0400
Organization: Bibliotech, Inc.
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In the old days under NextStep it was possible to get mouse down and mouse up
events for menus.  I have some code that relies on this behavior, but getting
these events under OPENSTEP seems to be impossible, given the methods of
NSMenu and NSMenuItem.

Is there another way of getting control when a user presses and when he
releases the mouse button when the mouse is over a menu entry?

				bob
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From: Information
Subject: Metrics
Message-ID: <5137cd$c75.121@news.psrinc.com>
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 20:07:05 GMT
Reply-To: Great Site
Lines: 2

Great Site URL:http://www.psrinc.com/metsys.htm


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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: menu mouse down events
Date: 19 May 1997 19:08:25 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <5lq8f9$sh8@shelob.afs.com>
References: <87wwov47pc.fsf@bibliotech.com>
Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.192

Robert E. Brown writes
> In the old days under NextStep it was possible to get mouse down and
> mouse up events for menus.  I have some code that relies on this
> behavior, but getting these events under OPENSTEP seems to be
> impossible, given the methods of NSMenu and NSMenuItem.
> 
> Is there another way of getting control when a user presses and when he
> releases the mouse button when the mouse is over a menu entry?

Don't think so. Remember, unlike OPENSTEP/Mach, in Windows you can trigger 
menu cells with just the keyboard. So your code would probably have to be 
aware of such events, too. I'd try to figure out a more cross-platform 
strategy, if I were you.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
####################################################################
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Static Libs on OS-NT 4.2
Date: 19 May 1997 19:40:48 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <5lqac0$skt@shelob.afs.com>
References: <5le1cc$csu$4@news.apple.com>
Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.192

Steven Woolgar writes
> stanj@cs.stanford.edu (Stan Jirman) wrote:
> 
> > Well, I think I tried pretty much everything. How do I build a static 
> > library with PB under OS-NT 4.2? I know to change the makefile, but 
> > still the compiler complains about no "public header path" (very well 
> > set) and also does not produce a library. I don't want DLLs, I need a
> > static lib...
> 
> If someone decides to answer you could you pop the answer in an email
> to Steven_Woolgar@Claris.com?

I've been working with Stan on this one privately, but I thought I'd post 
the answer for everyone's benefit since it's not at all obvious.

To build a static library in OS/NT for later inclusion in other projects, 
you must add this line to your project's Makefile.preamble:

	LIBRARY_STYLE=STATIC

The other requirement is that you may not specify any dynamic libs or 
Frameworks as part of a static project; this does not cause a problem on 
Mach, but it definitely confuses the NT linker. By definition, a static 
lib does not need to resolve all its references at the time it is 
constructed, so this is OK. Now build the project. There is a bogus link 
warning about an unsupported option, but that is ignorable. The result is 
a file named [project].lib.

The ultimate app project that uses the static lib is the ONLY place 
you should specify dynamic libs or Frameworks as part of the build. In 
addition, be warned that the -ObjC and -all_files flags DO NOT WORK ON 
NT. This can cause major headaches if you have classes that are only 
referenced by name in nib files. For example, you may have a Panel 
subclass that is never referenced by name outside of its own module. 
In Mach, you could tell the linker to include the entires contents of 
libraries, whether or not all of the modules/symbols are apparently 
needed. Not so in NT: you must find a module that will definitely be 
included in the link image (like your app delegate), and include no-op 
code like [MyPanel class] somewhere in your source to force the link 
reference to the orphaned classes. +initialize is as good a place as any.

If you've been relying on -ObjC or -all_files in your Mach projects to get 
around this whole messy issue, a quick way to find out what's not forcibly 
resolved is to build your Mach project both with and without the -ObjC 
flag. Then after each link pass, do this in a Terminal window:

	nm -g YourExecutable | bm -e "A .objc"

which will give you a list of all your classes and categories that are 
actually linked into the file in each case. Diff the lists to figure out 
what classes and categories are not being forced into the link image by a 
real reference, then use my no-op trick above.

Categories are a problem on NT, because there's no way to force the 
modules in which they appear, except by (1) appending them to a class 
module that you know will be included; or (2) referencing a function (NOT 
a method) or global that lives in their module. Code is included at the 
module level, so anything that forces part of a module will force it all.

This message was brought to you courtesy of the alpha releases of WriteUp 
and PasteUp, the letters N and T, and the number 4.  8^)

--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
####################################################################
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From: mshores@iastate.edu (Matt Shores)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NeXTSTEP Driverkit Questions
Date: 19 May 1997 20:52:15 GMT
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Summary: DriverKit Questions (again) - Plug and PLay - Mach Messages
Keywords: Driver DriverKit NeXTSTE Plug and PLay Mach
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]

Hello all,
	Does anyone know how to access the Plug and Play routines that
come with the new EISA driver?  THere are a number of drivers that use
this interface (along with that PnPdump program).  It would be nice to
make my own little Sound Blaster 32/64 AWE Plug and Play driver.  Why?
Because 1).  Next did not turn up the volume on the Lin-in and CD
outputs - that is really ANNOYING!!!  It takes two mixer ports writes to
do this!  Arrrrg!!  2).  I want to write drivers for other PnP devices.
Yes, I know how LITTLE PnP helps hardware confiuguration, but the damn
hardware makers are making all the new hardware with this "feature".
So, if anyone knows HOW one gets to these "hooks" in the driverkit,
PLEASE tell me!!!

	Second problem - I have a few drivers in the making right now,
but I am stuck on how exactly one sets up loadable kernel server/nice
mach messaging interface.  I understand mach messages and loadable
kernel servers etc., but evertime I try to add one into the driver
project, "kl_add_com" fails.  It will not load my extra server (beyond
the actual driver).  I notice that audio drivers use the name audio0 -
now, how do I make my own?????  Nothing seems to want to load... help!

Matt



####################################################################
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From: wave@pixar.com (Michael B. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Slider dilemma
Date: 20 May 1997 02:24:44 GMT
Organization: Pixar Animation Studios (Eastern Office)
Lines: 19
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edx@cc.usu.edu wrote:
>
>Is there a way to do this without having to subclass
>the slider?  I'd rather not have to subclass the slider
>because then I can't drag one in from the IB Palette
>unless I go to the additional trouble of palettizing my
>subclass. 

That's what the "Continous" option on the standard (at least on my ancient 
3.3 version of IB) Slider Inspector is for...  Hook it up to a text field and 
see in test interface mode.


-- 
-->  Michael B. Johnson, SMVS, Ph.D. -- wave@pixar.com|wave@media.mit.edu
-->  Media Arts Technologist, Pixar Animation Studios (Eastern Office)
-->  alumnus, MIT Media Lab, Computer Graphics & Animation Group
-->  http://wave.www.media.mit.edu/people/wave/

####################################################################
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From: 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ------SEX TOYS AND KINKY STUFF-------
Date: 20 May 1997 04:24:48 GMT
Organization: CyberGate, Inc.
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Fantazma has the best in sex toys and adult videos!   come visit our site!!!! Full of hot chicks and great picks!!!!
http://www.fantazma.com

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From: wave@pixar.com (Michael B. Johnson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Slider dilemma
Date: 20 May 1997 07:28:49 GMT
Organization: Pixar Animation Studios (Eastern Office)
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wave@pixar.com (Michael B. Johnson) wrote:
>edx@cc.usu.edu wrote:
>>
>>Is there a way to do this without having to subclass
>>the slider?  I'd rather not have to subclass the slider
>>because then I can't drag one in from the IB Palette
>>unless I go to the additional trouble of palettizing my
>>subclass. 
>
>That's what the "Continous" option on the standard (at least on my ancient 
>3.3 version of IB) Slider Inspector is for...  Hook it up to a text field 
and 
>see in test interface mode.

err, never mind.  I obviously (see, I can spell "ous" words) didn't read the 
question carefully...

-- 
-->  Michael B. Johnson, SMVS, Ph.D. -- wave@pixar.com|wave@media.mit.edu
-->  Media Arts Technologist, Pixar Animation Studios (Eastern Office)
-->  alumnus, MIT Media Lab, Computer Graphics & Animation Group
-->  http://wave.www.media.mit.edu/people/wave/

####################################################################
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From: yannick buisson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSTableView and NXImage
Date: 20 May 1997 10:00:06 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
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Hi all,

I'm trying to include a column in my tableView to display an image.

In nextStep, i had just to set an NXImageFormatter for my column
and update the array returned after the fetch to set an NXImage in
the right records 

But how can i do that under OpenStep 4.1 and EOF2.0 ??

thanks for your help

YANNICK


-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 05 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 05 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
####################################################################
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From: michael@hesta.com (Michael Verruto)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Cannon GP200 Driver?
Date: 20 May 1997 16:23:40 GMT
Organization: HPI Capital, LLC
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5lsj6c$7th@corporate.hesta.com>
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We are thinking of buying a multifunction (copy and print) machine from 
Cannon called a GP200 and attatching it to our network via ethernet.  It has 
full postscript and PCL functionality - is there a driver for this? They have 
a Mac and Windows driver (no NT yet...) 
Can I get documents to print to it simply (no duplexing etc...) with a 
differnt driver ?  What might the likelihood be that a driver would become 
available under Rhapsody?

--
"A measure of a man is what he will do for
 someone who can offer but nothing in return." 
			-Unattributed.
MIME & NeXTMAIL accepted
Michael Styles Verruto - michael@hesta.com

####################################################################
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From: bueckle@schelling.dbag.ulm.DaimlerBenz.COM (Martin Bckle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Physically contiguous memory in DriverKit drivers
Date: 20 May 1997 13:04:30 GMT
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Hi to all DriverKit gurus,

Does anybody know how to alloc large pieces (for instance 16MB)
of physically contiguous memory within a driver? In priciple,
IOMallocLow can be used for the job. But this function only
works in the low 16MB of the memory, therefore it is not
possible to alloc whole 16MB areas.

Any idea?

Any help will be appreciated.

Best regards,

  Martin Bueckle

====================================================
Martin Bueckle, Daimler-Benz AG, Research Center Ulm
Institute of Information Technology
Department of Pattern Recognition/Text Understanding
P.O. Box 2360, 89013 Ulm, Germany

Phone: +49 731 505 2399
Fax:   +49 731 505 4113
Email: bueckle@dbag.ulm.daimlerbenz.com
====================================================

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From: erik@square.nl (Erik Hommersom)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: JOB: Netherlands - OpenStep Developers
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 20:59:34 +0100
Organization: Square BV
Lines: 41
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.220.212.54
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+



      Open Positions for OpenStep Developers

The Square Development Team are looking for OpenStep Developers on
temporary or permanent contract. Your area of software development at
Square may become Document Management Solutions, with emphasis on paper to
electronic document conversions, involving fully-automated press clipping
software, image enhancement and optical character recognition for turn-key
projects.

Square is a Dutch company, located in Roermond, in the southern part of
The Netherlands, at less than 60 kms distance from Maastricht, Eindhoven,
Aachen and Dusseldorf. We have a tight and enthusiastic crew that
specialise in developing software for Document Management Solutions as
well as Service Management Solutions. Currently, the Square team consists
of approximately 50 members. 

Do you have an object-oriented bias towards design and programming? Do you
enjoy working in small teams in direct contact with customers? 
Do you have experiences using object-oriented tools, possibly under OpenStep? 
Are you interested in cross-platform developments based on OpenStep?
Do you want to grow in and along with our company?

If you are good at your job and feel triggered by the above, please send
us your resume, an email message or give us a ring. We will be happy to
provide you with all the details you want! 

Erik Hommersom

Square BV 
Software Development


tel 00-31-475-355-100 daytime 
tel 00-31-77-354-1156 evening
fax 00-31-475-355-199

Buitenop 5
6041 LA  Roermond
The Netherlands
####################################################################
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From: erik@square.nl (Erik Hommersom)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: JOB: Netherlands - OpenStep Developers
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:00:20 +0100
Organization: Square BV
Lines: 40
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 145.220.212.54
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b27.1+


      Open Positions for OpenStep Developers

The Square Development Team are looking for OpenStep Developers on
temporary or permanent contract. Your area of software development at
Square may become Document Management Solutions, with emphasis on paper to
electronic document conversions, involving fully-automated press clipping
software, image enhancement and optical character recognition for turn-key
projects.

Square is a Dutch company, located in Roermond, in the southern part of
The Netherlands, at less than 60 kms distance from Maastricht, Eindhoven,
Aachen and Dusseldorf. We have a tight and enthusiastic crew that
specialise in developing software for Document Management Solutions as
well as Service Management Solutions. Currently, the Square team consists
of approximately 50 members. 

Do you have an object-oriented bias towards design and programming? Do you
enjoy working in small teams in direct contact with customers? 
Do you have experiences using object-oriented tools, possibly under OpenStep? 
Are you interested in cross-platform developments based on OpenStep?
Do you want to grow in and along with our company?

If you are good at your job and feel triggered by the above, please send
us your resume, an email message or give us a ring. We will be happy to
provide you with all the details you want! 

Erik Hommersom

Square BV 
Software Development


tel 00-31-475-355-100 daytime 
tel 00-31-77-354-1156 evening
fax 00-31-475-355-199

Buitenop 5
6041 LA  Roermond
The Netherlands
####################################################################
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Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!uni-erlangen.de!uniol!fu-berlin.de!news.mathworks.com!EU.net!news.eunet.cz!hurka!tom
From: tom@hukatronic.cz (Tomas Hurka)
Subject: Re: Memory Leaks using NSUnarchiver
Message-ID: 
Keywords: NSUnarchiver memory leaks
Sender: tom@hurka.UUCP (Tomas Hurka)
Reply-To: tom@hukatronic.cz (Tomas Hurka)
Organization: Hukatronic (H.C.C.)
References: <5lpg47$nd1$1@hermes.is.co.za>
Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 21:05:22 GMT
Lines: 57

Hi Gerrit,
In article <5lpg47$nd1$1@hermes.is.co.za> gvandyk@icon.co.za writes:
> I am getting huge memory leaks using NSUnarchiver to decode NSData's.
> I am using NextStep 3.3 with foundation and EOF.
> 
[..]
> 
> Has somebody experienced the same type of problem, or am I missing
> something somewhere?
This is a known problem and it was discussed in this group before. Based  
on the response from Ivo Boehme , we use the  
following category to NSUnarchiver to avoid this huge memory leaks.

%----------------------------------------
#import 

@interface NSUnarchiver (antibug)

+ unarchiveObjectWithData:(NSData *)data;
- deallocData;

@end

@implementation NSUnarchiver (antibug)

+ unarchiveObjectWithData:(NSData *)aData
{ NSUnarchiver *unarchiver=[[NSUnarchiver alloc]  
initForReadingWithDatan:aData];
  id object=[unarchiver decodeObject];
	
  if (![unarchiver isAtEnd])
  { NSLog(@"*** +[NSUnarchiver unarchiveObjectWithData:]: extra data  
discarded");
  }
  [unarchiver deallocData];
  [unarchiver release];
  return object;
}

- deallocData
{
  free((void*)[data bytes]);
  return self;
}

@end

%----------------------------------------

I hope it helps you.

Best regards,

-- 
Tomas Hurka
tom@hukatronic.cz
NeXTMAIL and MIME OK (international mail <50 KB accepted)
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From: "L. Todd Heberlein" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Power Computing using WebObjects
Date: 21 May 1997 00:14:12 GMT
Organization: mother.com Internet Services
Lines: 16
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I noticed Power Computing Corp, the leading Apple clone direct seller(?),
now is using Apple's WebObjecs to run its Web site.  Dell, I believe one of
the top two PC clone direct sellers, also uses WebObjects.

It would be nice for the news media to pick this story up.  Instead of
reading "Apple's market share slips to 4%", it would be nice to read "Apple
software manages 15% of all computer sales".  Oh well, I can hope...

http://www.powercc.com/

http://www.dell.com/
(select "Buy a Dell" box, and then select a base configuration)


Todd

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From: Bob Hathaway 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.oberon,comp.object.logic,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.beta
Subject: Object Magazine Online - ANNOUNCEMENT/CALL FOR PAPERS - Free New Journal
Followup-To: comp.object
Date: 20 May 1997 19:43:36 -0500
Organization: Object Magazine Online
Lines: 80
Message-ID: <5ltgfo$s75@shoga.wwa.com>
Reply-To: Bob Hathaway 
NNTP-Posting-Host: shoga.wwa.com
Summary: Object Magazine Online - FREE NEW JOURNAL
Keywords: Free WWW OO Object-Oriented Journal
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24499 comp.lang.oberon:8368 comp.object.logic:1131 comp.lang.scheme:15050 comp.lang.beta:1081

                       OBJECT MAGAZINE ONLINE
                       ======================
               OBJECT MAGAZINE ONLINE HYPERTEXT JOURNAL             
                FREE NEW MONTHLY OBJECT-ORIENTED FORUM
                      FORMERLY: OBJECT CURRENTS

    Location:        http://www.sigs.com/omo/
    Editor-In-Chief: Bob Hathaway 
    Issues:          January 1996 (OCJ) thru May 1997
    New Issue:       May  1
    Next Issue:      June 1
    Publisher:       SIGS: Web Apps, C++ Report, JOOP/ROAD, Object Magazine,
                          Object Expert, Smalltalk Report, X Journal, 
                          Java Report, Object Buyer's Guide, ...

This is an invitation to join us at Object Magazine Online and view, engage
in, and participate in the latest in object-oriented technology using the
newest in information technology, the WWW.  Object Magazine Online is a
complete new free monthly journal with original Feature Articles, Columns,
and Departments along with several *new* articles from Object Magazine.

  OMO ARTICLES

We are accepting original Articles to present in OMO which include honorarium
and the opportunity to publish.

Our World Class Columnists have included:
  Watts Humphrey:         SEI Process Director, CMM & PSP Inventor
  Bertrand Meyer:         Eiffel, OO Design and Software Engineering
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From: jhlee@softmagic.co.kr
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOF2.0 NSNumber memory leak
Date: 21 May 1997 08:44:14 GMT
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Reply-To: jhlee@softmagic.co.kr
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Keywords: EOF NSNumber leak

Hello,

I am writing an EOF application on OpenStep4.1J for Mach using EOF 2.0 and  
Oracle as DB engine.
One of the template object(.m and .h) contains integer instance varible  
and it seems that it is causing the memory leak.
There is an OracleAdaptorPatch for NT which fixes this problem, memory  
leak with NSNumber.
But I could not find the patch for Mach.
Is there a solution or workaround to this problem?

Please Help!!!!

Thank You

Jaeho Lee
jhlee@softmagic.co.kr

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From: martin@wise-02.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Martin Rose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Categories and their integration
Date: 21 May 1997 14:11:43 GMT
Organization: TU Dresden (URZ)
Lines: 113
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Hi NeXTSTEP Developpers,

I tried to use categories to seperate methods that are necessary for the 
program but which are not the "heart" of the program. But unfortunately, the 
projectbuilder did not accept these extern method interfaces and 
implementations as "actions" to be connected with buttons etc.:


****************************************************************
"Main" Header File   (MyController.h)
****************************************************************
  #import 
  #import 

  @interface MeinController:Object
  {
   id 			 textFeld;
   id			 radios;
   id			 browser;
   int			 i;
   NSMutableArray		*array;
   NSComparisonResult	 sortOrder;
   NSMutableArray		*stringArray;
  }

  - sortList:sender;
  // manually copied from Cat.h !!
  - addValue:sender;
  - clearList:sender;
  - setSortOrder:sender;
@end



****************************************************************
"Main" Implemenation File  (MyController.m)
****************************************************************
  #import "MyController.h"
  #import "foundation/NSString.h"
  #import "foundation/NSValue.h"
  
  #import "Cat.h"  	

  @implementation MyController
  // The heart method of my program...
  - sortList:sender
     {...}
  @end



****************************************************************
Category Header File (Cat.h)
****************************************************************
  #import 

  @interface MyController(Cat)
  - addValue:sender;
  - showList;
  - clearList:sender;
  - setSortOrder:sender;
  - reload:(NSArray*)array;

  // Delegate - Methods of the Browser
  - (int)browser:sender fillMatrix:matrix	inColumn:(int)column;
  - browser:sender loadCell:cell atRow:(int)row inColumn:(int)column;
@end



****************************************************************
Category Implementation File (Cat.m)
****************************************************************
  #import "Cat.h"
  #import "foundation/NSString.h"
  #import "foundation/NSValue.h"


  @implementation MyController(Cat)
  - init
    {...}
  - addValue:sender
    {...} 
  - showList
    {...}
  - clearList:sender
    {...}
  - setSortOrder:sender
    {...}
  - reload:(NSArray*)localarray
    {...}
  - ... // (some delegates!)

  @end





So I copied manually just the method-interfaces from the category header file 
to the "main" header file - and it worked! (See the comment in the last part 
of MyController.h)

But in my eyes, it cannot be the true sense of using categories if every 
method implemented externally must be copied into the "main" header file!


Are there any ideas to use categories in a better way or did I do anything 
wrong?

Please give me a hint! Thank you in advance!


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From: martin@wise-02.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Martin Rose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: e-mail address for answers to "Categories"
Date: 21 May 1997 14:24:10 GMT
Organization: TU Dresden (URZ)
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Hello again,

Sorry, I forgot to give you my e-mail address:


mrose@rcs.urz.tu-dresden.de


Thank you,
Martin Rose
####################################################################
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From: csong@tip.com.sg (Chuang Shyne Song)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.asm.x86
Subject: jmp with relative addressing on NextStep 3.3/gcc 2.7.2- How?
Date: 21 May 1997 14:47:26 GMT
Organization: Tip CyberCommune
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Hi guys,

I'm trying to compile some assembly code on NextStep 3.3 with gcc 2.7.2.

I find that my jmp instructions with relative addressing keep getting 
compiled as 5 byte jmpl instructions in the absolute addressing mode. I 
checked this by disassembling with gdb. Can someone tell me what I'm missing?

The same code (below) compiles correctly on a Pentium running Linux and I'm 
very curious why NextStep would be any different.

void main() {
__asm__("
...
        jmp 0x39
...
")
}

Rgds, Song
####################################################################
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From: NoSpa.Mgustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: MacTech: Prelude to Rhapsody Tools Available to ADP Members
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 12:22:18 -0400
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
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This is the same set of tools handed out at WWDC.

full text at this URL:
http://web.xplain.com:80/mactech.com/news/97-05/970520Rhapsody.html

-----------

Bicycle Crash Test Dummy for Hire
gustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
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From: Ravi Mendis 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Power Computing using WebObjects
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 17:55:58 +0100
Organization: Oxford University
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On 21 May 1997, L. Todd Heberlein wrote:
> I noticed Power Computing Corp, the leading Apple clone direct seller(?),
> now is using Apple's WebObjecs to run its Web site.  Dell, I believe one of
> the top two PC clone direct sellers, also uses WebObjects.
> 
> http://www.powercc.com/
> 
> http://www.dell.com/
> (select "Buy a Dell" box, and then select a base configuration)

That's ironic in some sense.

'Cos even Apple doesn't use WebObjects for AppleDirect sales?
:)

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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Perl 5.01 available?
Date: 21 May 97 13:36:17 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
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  Is Perl 5.01 available for OpenStep 4.2? Can someone point me to it?


rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: Matthew_Seaman@plsys.co.uk (Matthew Seaman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Perl 5.01 available?
Date: 21 May 1997 17:57:22 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Message-ID: <5lvd22$in6$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: 
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In  "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
> 
>   Is Perl 5.01 available for OpenStep 4.2? Can someone point me to it?

eagle:~:% /usr/bin/perl -v

This is perl, version 5.001

        Unofficial patchlevel 1m.

Copyright 1987-1994, Larry Wall

Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the
GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5.0 source kit.

It's bundled.

	Matthew

--
Matthew Seaman
P&L Systems, 12 The Broadway, Amersham, Bucks., HP7 0HP, England
Tel: +44 1494 432422  Fax: +44 1494 432478


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From: NoSpa.Mgustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.tools
Subject: Apple's Prelude to Rhapsody Support Site
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 13:18:21 -0400
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the URL to the site is: http://www.devworld.apple.com:80/dev/prelude.html

-----------

Bicycle Crash Test Dummy for Hire
gustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Power Computing using WebObjects
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 21 May 1997 20:23:31 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
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L. Todd Heberlein (heberlei@NetSQ.com) wrote:

: It would be nice for the news media to pick this story up.  Instead of
: reading "Apple's market share slips to 4%", it would be nice to read "Apple
: software manages 15% of all computer sales".  Oh well, I can hope...

It's annoying that Dell's page doesn't mention WebObjects, but is
instead plastered with BackOffice icons. Apple should push more
to get WebObjects credit. A small discount, or some free tech support,
in return for a WO icon might be nice.


--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: jinyu@eagle.pa.dec.com (Jin Yu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Rhapsody features?
Date: 21 May 1997 20:49:25 GMT
Organization: DEC Systems Research Center
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I missed the WWDC, and I am not able to find answers to the following
questions on Apple's web sites. Maybe someone can fulfill my curiosity.

Specifically, will Rhapsody have these important features offered by
Nextstep:

1. Will Rhapsody support multi-user / time-sharing ?
     Nextstep does, ie. many users can login and work on one machine
     simultaneous.

2. Will Rhapsody support a network-transparent window system?
     Nextstep does, ie. a user may login to a remote Next, and run a graphical
     application with the -NSHost (or -NXHost) switch, and have the
     application displayed at his/her local Next. (how to integrate DPS and
     QuickDraw to support remote display?) This remote display feature is a
     common sense in the Unix/X world too.

3. Will Rhapsody have a Unix-like shell and various Unix utilities?
     Nextstep does, ie. 4.3BSD on top of Mach, and it has all the standard
     Unix utilities under /bin and /usr/bin.

Please reply by email. Thanks!

Jin
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From: jack@ecta.com (Jack Brasch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Power Computing using WebObjects
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 20:41:08 GMT
Organization: Voicenet - Internet Access - (215)674-9290
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What is even more annoying is that Microsoft list Dell as a featured
site using Active Server Pages.

jack

jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry) wrote:

>L. Todd Heberlein (heberlei@NetSQ.com) wrote:

>: It would be nice for the news media to pick this story up.  Instead of
>: reading "Apple's market share slips to 4%", it would be nice to read "Apple
>: software manages 15% of all computer sales".  Oh well, I can hope...

>It's annoying that Dell's page doesn't mention WebObjects, but is
>instead plastered with BackOffice icons. Apple should push more
>to get WebObjects credit. A small discount, or some free tech support,
>in return for a WO icon might be nice.


>--
>Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com


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From: htreetrunk@hotmail.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: helpful new florida website
Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 19:25:10
Organization: Netline Communications, Inc.
Lines: 4
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organizations or business trips, meetings plans, family vacations, etc. in Florida
are well handled by the people at    www.floridatime.com    check out and bookmark
this site for future reference.

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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Spam cancelled by sef@kithrup.com
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From: davisson@barnacle (Leslie Davisson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: enableExternal message
Date: 21 May 1997 19:13:59 GMT
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Hello,
I am trying to find out what class(es) are supposed to respond to the following message 
that appears in the console:

objc: FREED(id): message enableExternal sent to freed object=0x2cdec4

The developer seeing this says it is difficult to say what the circumstances are when this 
error occurs, b/c many processes are being called.  The error does not appear to be fatal, 
at least not right away.

His code is written in objective C, and he is not using EOF or Foundation or any other 
tools.  It is a simple app w/no GUI.  It is just a server broadcasting calls.


Has anyone ever seen this message before, and or know where this message comes 
from?  I have contacted NeXT tech support, but they have been unable to give me an 
answer other than it is coming from the DO (Distributed Objects) system, and it's reporting 
a message being sent to a freed DO object.  This is a NeXTStep 3.3 system.

Thanks for any help in advance,
Leslie Davisson
davisson@laa.com
Lynn-Arthur Associates, Inc.


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From: yannick buisson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep 4.2
Date: 22 May 1997 06:04:33 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Lines: 22
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Hi all,

Is OpenStep 4.2 available ?
Where can i get it ?

Thanks for your answers

YANNICK
-- 


	 ////
	(. .)                                
----oOO--(_)--OOo--------------------------------------------

Yannick BUISSON
	Centre de Ressources Informatiques
	Universit de La Rochelle
	tel  prof. : 05 46 45 82 14.
	fax prof.  : 05 46 45 82 45.
	
	yannick@cri.univ-lr.fr
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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ObjC++ under 4.X
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:30:38 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
Sender: news@cam-ani.co.uk
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Has anyone tested C++ under OpenStep 4.X?

I last looked at this last year, when there was a horrendous bug in the OS  
for MachOs C++ compiler, and ObjC++ was not supported (ie just didn't  
work) on OS/NT.

I hate C++ but the situation is that we have lost of C++. Is a move to  
OpenStep possible for C++ programmers in 4.2?

$an
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From: gsupport@mttam.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenGraph/OpenStep Gamma Number 3 CD Ships
Date: 22 May 1997 11:23:35 GMT
Organization: VVI Data Control Specialists
Lines: 73
Message-ID: <5m1abn$559$1@news2.digex.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mttam.com
Originator: gsupport@

PRESS RELEASE:

OpenGraph/OpenStep Gamma Number 3 CD Ships

VVI Data Control Specialists (VVI-DCS)
311 Adams Ave.; State College, PA 16803 USA
888-DCS-OPEN ; 814-234-9613
gsupport@mttam.com

State College, PA USA, 22 May 1997: Showing its continued commitment to the
OpenStep/Rhapsody marketplace, VVI-DCS ships third gamma version of OpenGraph
to major OpenStep customers worldwide, including OpenStep customers in
financial service, manufacturing, pharmaceutical and biotech industries with
combined assets of billions of dollars.

Join those premier OpenStep customers in the OpenGraph Gamma Program and
receive:

1. Proven OpenGraph technology used now by the largest OpenStep customers to
   monitor billions of dollars worth of products.
2. No-fee technical support via e-mail, no-fee use of the OpenGraph
   gamma version during the gamma program, and no entrance fee (its free).
3. Free commercial copies of the GraphBuilder** application for ALL computers
   in participant's company, and one copy of OpenGraph-Developer** and
   OpenGraph-User*** sent to participants at the end of the gamma program.

To take advantage of this offer contact VVI-DCS at gsupport@mttam.com.

_________________________________

PREMIER PRESS RELEASE:

State College, PA, 20 January 1997: VVI-DCS announced an expansion of its
OpenGraph on OpenStep gamma program. If your business is interested in gamma
testing OpenGraph please contact VVI-DCS at gsupport@mttam.com.

"We've been working on the OpenGraph/OpenStep port for about a year now." said
John Brilhart, Chief Technical Officer at VVI-DCS. "Our customers are reporting
complex data sets from global real-time data feeds up to 500 events per second.
That type of data reporting requires reliable and optimized report software.
The gamma program is an important final part of our total quality control of
the OpenGraph port." John adds, "The improvements and new features accompanying
that port ensures our commanding lead in the high-end data reporting markets.
With OpenStep and OpenGraph we provide compelling and unique solutions which
have market advantages for our customers. For that reason we've always been
fully committed to OpenStep on all platforms and have been working with NeXT
and Sun for quite a while. We expect to apply the same level of commitment to
the Apple version of OpenStep when it becomes available."

About VVI-DCS: VVI-DCS, founded in 1989, builds custom OpenStep based data
report and acquisition systems for the financial service, manufacturing,
pharmaceutical and biotech industries and is the leading supplier of high-end
data report software for the OpenStep marketplace.

About OpenGraph: OpenGraph is a framework of Objective-C and C++ objects for
reporting data in graph and textual formats and consists of a graph building
application and pre-built objects. OpenGraph accepts real-time feeds from any
source and serves as a graphing front-end for real-time financial analysis,
transaction, production and inventory analysis, database systems, and
instrumentation. OpenGraph is fully object-oriented and is well suited to
systems which require reliability, exacting specifications and performance.

_________________________________
A non-disclosure agreement is required for participation in the gamma program.

** no-license-fee commercial use license.
***no-license-fee and royalty-free commercial use license.

(C) Copyright 1997 VVimaging, Inc. (VVI-DCS); All rights reserved. OpenGraph,
GraphBuilder, VVI Data Control Specialists, VVI-DCS, and VVimaging are
trademarks of VVimaging, Inc. (VVI-DCS). NeXT, NEXTSTEP and OpenStep are
trademarks of NeXT Software, Inc. All other trademarks and service marks belong
to their respective owners.
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for: tiff to gif / ps to gif
Date: 22 May 1997 12:25:51 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5m1e0f$aud$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <337C09AB.573C@pfh.sel.alcatel.de>
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00083

On 05/16/97, "Bruce J. Dolby" wrote:
>I'm looking for a command line converter that can convert
>either tiff or ps to gif format.
>Does anyone know where I might find such a converter?
>
Install the imagetools suite, cf:

	http://www.plsys.co.uk/~malcolm/NEXTSTEP/WWW/

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: msoori@*genetics.bio-rad.com (msoori)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Open Step - how to?
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 10:27:15 +0100
Organization: Bio-Rad Laboratories
Lines: 20
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ms.genetics.bio-rad.com

I am a beginer to OpenStep from the Mac Side.  Is there any way to put the
scroll bars on openstep on the right hand side?  Also, I discovered that
you can set the right mouse to pop up the menus...  Now, is it possible to
get rid of the menu that comes up when you lanuch an app/workspace and
just use the pop up menu from right clicking?

Please reply by e-mail.

Thanks.
Mahesh.

No spam for me!  Remove * from e-mail address to reply.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Mahesh P. Sooriarachchi.                                               ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Work:      msoori@genetics.bio-rad.com        |                        ~
~ Personal:  mahesh@value.net                   |  This space for rent!  ~
~ Home Page: http://value.net/~mahesh/work.html |                        ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep 4.2
Date: 22 May 97 14:47:47 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
Lines: 23
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On Thu, May 22, 1997 2:04 AM, 
	nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/yannick
 wrote:
>Is OpenStep 4.2 available ?
>Where can i get it ?
>


  I believe you have to be a registered Apple developer to get it at this
point because it's pre-release at this point.

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: NSString and extended characters
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 18:17:09 GMT
Lines: 8

Hi all,
Can someone please tell me how to make NSString's comparing methods work  
with extended characters? For example, comparing "gr  er" to "GR SSER"  
("bigger" in German) using caseInsensitiveCompare: doesn't yield  
equality even if uppercaseString: returns the latter from the former.

Same result comparing "gr er" to "GR ER" but "grer" to "GRER" works.
Thanks.
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From: Kevin Birch 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q] Good Smalltalk-like class browser avail?
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 17:35:53 -0500
Organization: Silicon Grahpics, Inc
Lines: 6
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CC: kbirch@pobox.com

Does anyone know of a good class browser for 3.3 on HPPA?
Something akin to a Smalltalk-type class browser, that you
can edit code in.

Kevin
kbirch@pobox.com
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From: Melissa O'Neill 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.lang.java.setup
Subject: Problems w/ Kaffe 0.9 [next-m68k] (undef'd syms _java_util_zip_*)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 23 May 1997 00:03:13 GMT
Organization: Simon Fraser University
Lines: 66
Message-ID: <5m2ms1$t35$1@morgoth.sfu.ca>
NNTP-Posting-Host: beaufort.sfu.ca
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24524 comp.sys.next.misc:25940 comp.lang.java.setup:3748

I succeeded in compiling Kaffe 0.9, now I just have the little problem of
actually getting it to run. Right now, it seems to have problems loading
its native library, which appear to be due to undefined symbols blocking
the dynamic load process.

I added some diagnostic code to its ``shared libary'' loader, so I'd
actually see what the problem was, and it seems that there are `stubs'
defined for java_lang_reflect_Field_ and java_util_zip_
but no definitions anywhere.

Any help would certainly be appreciated, enclosed is the error report.

    Melissa.

P.S. If you want to reply by e-mail, you'll have to remove `N O S P A M'
from my e-mail address. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Enc.

next_mach_3.3% ./kaffe/kaffe/kaffe test/HelloWorldApp.java   
rld(): can't open: /usr/lib/libkaffe_native.o (No such file or directory, 
errno = 2)
Library load of /usr/lib/libkaffe_native.o failed: (see above)
rld(): Undefined symbols:
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getBoolean
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getByte
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getChar
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getDouble
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getFloat
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getInt
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getLong
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getModifiers
_java_lang_reflect_Field_getShort
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setBoolean
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setByte
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setChar
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setDouble
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setFloat
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setInt
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setLong
_java_lang_reflect_Field_setShort
_java_util_zip_Adler32_update
_java_util_zip_Adler32_update1
_java_util_zip_CRC32_update
_java_util_zip_CRC32_update1
_java_util_zip_Deflater_deflate
_java_util_zip_Deflater_end
_java_util_zip_Deflater_getAdler
_java_util_zip_Deflater_getTotalIn
_java_util_zip_Deflater_getTotalOut
_java_util_zip_Deflater_init
_java_util_zip_Deflater_reset
_java_util_zip_Deflater_setDictionary
_java_util_zip_Inflater_end
_java_util_zip_Inflater_getAdler
_java_util_zip_Inflater_getTotalIn
_java_util_zip_Inflater_getTotalOut
_java_util_zip_Inflater_inflate
_java_util_zip_Inflater_init
_java_util_zip_Inflater_reset
_java_util_zip_Inflater_setDictionary
Library load of /usr/local/lib/libkaffe_native.o failed: (See above)
Failed to locate native library in path:
        /usr/lib:/usr/local/lib
Aborting.

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From: Preston Holmes 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody package
Date: 23 May 1997 02:07:15 GMT
Organization: UCSD Scripps Inst. of Oceanography
Lines: 7
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5m2u4j$2b5$3@news1.ucsd.edu>
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24525 comp.sys.next.advocacy:69235 comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior:67897 comp.sys.mac.programmer.help:48174

I'm trying to find someone who attended WWDC but isn't interested in the
"Prelude to Rhapsody" package of CDs they were given.  I wasn't able to
attend WWDC but would love the CDs to learn about OpenStep.

Please contact me by mail if you are interested in selling these to me.

-Preston 
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From: David Wilson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: GCC Available for Next???
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 22:37:30 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Lines: 7
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Is there a version of the Gnu C or C++ compiler available for NextStep
3.2
on the original black hardware??

david_wilson@crd.lotus.com

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From: John Kuszewski 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: newbie Qs
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 20:58:26 -0400
Organization: Nat'l Insts of Health
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <3384EBB2.2AEF@spork.niddk.nih.gov>
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Hi,

I'm a Smalltalk programmer, and I'm thinking of 
jumping ship to Rhapsody.  I have a few questions
first, and I'd appreciate it if y'all could help
me out:

1.  What's the OpenStep class library like?  How
similar is it to a "standard" Smalltalk library?

2.  I understand that the GC mechanism isn't as
global as a Smalltalk GC.  How much memory management
would I have to do myself?

3.  What are the learning curves like for IB/PB/etc?

4.  What's the performance like for programs written
in a very OO way?

5.  What's EOF like?  How much time will I have to 
spend thinking in terms of SQL records instead of 
objects?  Are there any cheap/free database engines
that can talk to EOF?

6.  [obviously more specific]  Are there tools for 
building parsers for simple user-interaction languages?
I'm thinking of something like a simple selection 
language for a database app to be used by very 
non-technical users.  Has anyone tried building something
like a simple "flowchart-oriented language" (ie., user
draws something like a flowchart using a MacDraw-like 
toolset and the program uses it to select various 
records from a database)?  If anyone has done this,
I'd *really* like to hear how it was done and how 
painful it was to implement in NeXTSTEP/OpenStep.

Thanks for any help you can offer!

-- 
                                   _____________
                                   |        ___/_
                                   |        |/  /
                                   --  /\  //  /--
                                   ||  ||  /  /||
                                   ||  || /  / ||
                                   ||  ||/  /  ||
John Kuszewski                     ||  |/  /|  ||      
johnk@spasm.niddk.nih.gov          ||  /  /||  ||
                                   \/ /  / ||  \/
that's MISTER protein G to you!     |/__/|      |
                                      /_________|

My parents went to Zaire and all I got 
was this lousy retrovirus.
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep 4.2
Date: 23 May 1997 03:22:18 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5m32ha$48g$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <5m0nlh$naj@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr> 
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On 05/22/97, "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
>On Thu, May 22, 1997 2:04 AM, 
>	nntp://news.itd.umich.edu/yannick
> wrote:
>>Is OpenStep 4.2 available ?
>>Where can i get it ?
>>
>
>
>  I believe you have to be a registered Apple developer to get it at 
this
>point because it's pre-release at this point.
>

	Yes, but OpenStep 4.2 is supposed to actually ship shortly in 
its commercial form.


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: gmark@grayfox.svs.com (G. Mark Stewart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Date: 23 May 1997 03:46:52 GMT
Organization: Sun Valley SoftWare
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Jin Yu (jinyu@eagle.pa.dec.com) wrote:

: I missed the WWDC, and I am not able to find answers to the following
: questions on Apple's web sites. Maybe someone can fulfill my curiosity.

: Specifically, will Rhapsody have these important features offered by
: Nextstep:

[...]


: Please reply by email. Thanks!


If you know or have a guess, DON'T reply by e-mail -- post it.


GMS
http://www.svs.com/users/gmark
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From: Yi Zhao 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody package
Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 23:40:11 -0700
Organization: Netcom
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Preston Holmes wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to find someone who attended WWDC but isn't interested in the
> "Prelude to Rhapsody" package of CDs they were given.  I wasn't able to
> attend WWDC but would love the CDs to learn about OpenStep.
> 
> Please contact me by mail if you are interested in selling these to me.
> 
> -Preston 

 I am interested too.

- Yi 

yzhao@ix.netcom.com
(415)842-6536
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From: jinyu@eagle.pa.dec.com (Jin Yu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: NXHost protocol?
Date: 23 May 1997 07:34:11 GMT
Organization: DEC Systems Research Center
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I am interested in the protocol behind NeXT's remote display mechanism, ie.
how does a NeXT app display to a remote WindowServer using -NXHost? What is
the communication channel? using TCP/IP like X protocol? Mach port? ...
Is the protocol public? Any docs?

I assume an app sends a stream of binary PS 2 to the remote WindowServer. But
I would like to know the detailed mechanism...

Please reply by email, thanks...

Jin
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From: "Bruce J. Dolby" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How do I rotate a ps picture?
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 10:36:49 +0100
Organization: Alcatel SEL
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Hello NeXT people,

I would like to rotate a ps picture (90 degrees). Normally this
would be no problem, but I would like to do this from the command
line.

Any hints?

BJD

PS.: I like doing things the hard way.
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From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: gcc in Prelude/OS4.2 ?
Date: 23 May 1997 09:03:02 GMT
Organization: University of Heidelberg, Germany
Lines: 17
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Hi,

OPENSTEP 4.2 was announced to contain a compiler based on gcc 2.7.2.
Can somebody comment on this ? Is it included in the Prelude package ?
Then, could somebody put the sources of the compiler (the GNU package
I suppose) on an ftp server ? I'd love to try and get gcc 2.7.2
working with NS/SPARC and NS/HP-PA and therefore am hoping that the
changes for OS 4.2 can be ported to NS 3.3.

	Gregor


-- 
| Gregor Hoffleit                        Mathematisches Institut, Uni HD |
| flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de      INF 288, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany |
| (NeXTmail, MIME)                      (49)6221 54-5771    fax  54-8312 |
| PGP Key fingerprint = 23 8F B3 38 A3 39 A6 01  5B 99 91 D6 F2 AC CD C7 |
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From: dietzsch@wise.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Andreas Dietzsch)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Problem with compiling using Workshop Openstep for Solaris
Date: 23 May 1997 09:02:43 GMT
Organization: TU Dresden (URZ)
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After I installed (and licensed) the Openstep Workshop for Solaris on a Sun 
Ultra I try to compile a simple project. But the process stopped with the 
Message:

CC    -O -Isym -mt -I/usr/openstep/include  -I/usr/openwin/include 
-I/usr/openwin/include/X11 -c HelloWorld_main.m -o 
sparc_obj/HelloWorld_main.o
sh: CC: not found
*** Error code 1
make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `sparc_obj/HelloWorld_main.o'

Does anybody knows what the caused this problem?

Thanx for your help

Andreas

dietzsch@wise.wiwi.tu-dresden.de
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From: "Andreas Wuertz" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody package
Date: 23 May 97 13:45:44 +0100
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETHZ)
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If you two are Apple Partners or Associates, you should have an offer in
the mail by now.

Cheers Andy




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From: "teek" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: faking connection to window server
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 11:00:38 -0400
Organization: Cyantic Systems.
Lines: 23
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We have been using a 3.3 command line utility called rtf2ps which faked a
connection to the window server.

We'd like to apply a similar trick in 4.1/4.2, but haven't figured it out
yet.

Essentially we have a background process that is notified when it should
print an rtf document.  It uses rtf2ps to generate the .ps, and then issues
the required lpr command.  This process is run remotely - so it is not
attached to the window server.

Does anyone have a hack, or any suggestions, for this one?


Thanks,
teek

---
teek (Prateek Dwivedi)
 --- teek@cyantic.com
Cyantic Systems Corporation


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From: acurylo@inmediapresents.nospam.com (Alex Curylo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody package
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 09:29:58 -0700
Organization: InMedia Presentations
Lines: 19
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In article <5m2u4j$2b5$3@news1.ucsd.edu>, Preston Holmes
 wrote:

> I'm trying to find someone who attended WWDC but isn't interested in the
> "Prelude to Rhapsody" package of CDs they were given.  I wasn't able to
> attend WWDC but would love the CDs to learn about OpenStep.
> 
> Please contact me by mail if you are interested in selling these to me.

Any certified developer can call up Apple and sign up to get the same
package sans WebObjects delivered for free, pretty cool huh? Tuesday
morning they told me it'd ship in two weeks.

OpenStep documentation is also on the last Developer CD, plus you can get
it off Apple's website.

----
Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com

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From: markfr@markfr .cse.tek.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Detecting double clicks
Date: 23 May 1997 17:00:38 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR USA
Lines: 13
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Can anyone help me with what I need to do to
detect a mouse double click in an application?
I assume I need to put the code in the
mouseDown: method, but when I look at event
types, I see NX_MOUSEDOWN, NX_MOUSEDRAGGED,
etc., but no NX_MOUSEDOUBLECLICK.  Do I have
to implement this myself?
- Thanks for any help,
Mark

--
Mark Frank
markfr@markfr.cse.tek.com
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From: cnyap@dcs.shef.ac.uk (Chih Nam Yap)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Save - how to ?
Date: 23 May 1997 17:10:04 GMT
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of Sheffield
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Hi there,

I am seeking helps on saving view objects for my application.

I have a list of views which has been created during run time by users.
I wanted to save these views, so I write a "write" method in the view's class
 

- write:(NXTypedStream *)stream
{
   [super write:stream];
   NXWriteRect(stream, &frame);
   NXWriteObject(stream, font);
   NXWriteObjectReference(stream, superview);
   NXWriteObjectRegerence(stream, window);
   return self;
}


The reason I use NXWriteObjectReference for both superview and window id is
because these two ids are not considered intrinsic to the view class.

My question is when I saved the application and then re-open it again, how
should I inform all these views where to look for the superview and the window
ids ?

Thank you.




C.yap
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From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: faking connection to window server
Date: 23 May 1997 17:17:01 GMT
Organization: Frank's Area 51
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Cc: teek@cyantic.com

In <5m4be0$lo2$1@alexandria.cyantic.com> "teek" wrote:
> We have been using a 3.3 command line utility called rtf2ps which faked a
> connection to the window server.
> 
> We'd like to apply a similar trick in 4.1/4.2, but haven't figured it out
> yet.
> 
> Essentially we have a background process that is notified when it should
> print an rtf document.  It uses rtf2ps to generate the .ps, and then issues
> the required lpr command.  This process is run remotely - so it is not
> attached to the window server.
> 
> Does anyone have a hack, or any suggestions, for this one?
> 

I remember a dirty hack from the good ol' days that changes the kernel 
process tables to force a given process to be a child of Loginwindow.app. I 
can try to dig it out, it must be on a OD here...

Don't know if this works for OS... but one can always try.

--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net
* NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy

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From: jalon@allege.ens.fr (Julien Jalon)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How do I rotate a ps picture?
Date: 23 May 1997 18:13:29 GMT
Organization: Ecole Normale Superieure, Paris
Lines: 32
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References: <33856531.64CE@pfh.sel.alcatel.de>
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In article <33856531.64CE@pfh.sel.alcatel.de>,
Bruce J. Dolby  wrote:
>Hello NeXT people,
>
>I would like to rotate a ps picture (90 degrees). Normally this
>would be no problem, but I would like to do this from the command
>line.
>
>Any hints?
>
>BJD
% vi foo.eps

Edit the line "%%BoundinBox: xl yd xr yu" (if the line is
"%%BoundingBox: (attend)", there is the real "BoundingBox" line
at the end of the file)
replace this line by : "%%BoundingBox: -yu xl -yd xr"

just after the header, add the line :
"gsave 90 rotate"

at the end of the file (just before "%%EOF") :
"grestore"

You can do a perl script to do that :-)

--Julien
-- 
Julien Jalon					| Ecole normale superieure
jalon@clipper.ens.fr				| 45 rue d'Ulm
http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/jalon/	| 75230 Paris Cedex 05
						| FRANCE
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From: schack@skyler.arc.ab.ca (Brian Schack)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problem with compiling using Workshop Openstep for Solaris
Date: 23 May 1997 12:05:31 -0600
Organization: Alberta Research Council, Calgary Alberta, Canada
Lines: 29
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In-reply-to: dietzsch@wise.wiwi.tu-dresden.de's message of 23 May 1997
	09:02:43 GMT
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1

>>>>> "Andreas" == Andreas Dietzsch  writes:

    Andreas> After I installed (and licensed) the Openstep Workshop
    Andreas> for Solaris on a Sun Ultra I try to compile a simple
    Andreas> project. But the process stopped with the Message:

	CC    -O -Isym -mt -I/usr/openstep/include  -I/usr/openwin/include 
	-I/usr/openwin/include/X11 -c HelloWorld_main.m -o 
	sparc_obj/HelloWorld_main.o
	sh: CC: not found
	*** Error code 1
	make: Fatal error: Command failed for target `sparc_obj/HelloWorld_main.o'


    Andreas> Does anybody knows what the caused this problem?
 
You probably don't have CC in your path.  It gets installed in:

/opt/SUNWspro/bin/CC

Brian
-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Schack		 |mailto:schack@arc.ab.ca | "I don't want to achieve
Alberta Research Council |http://www.arc.ab.ca    |  immortality through my
6815 8th St NE           |		          |  work ... I want to achieve
Calgary, Alberta	 |ph:  (403) 297-7564     |  it through not dying."
Canada	T2E 7H7		 |fax: (403) 297-2339     |  - Woody Allen
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Colin Hanson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NeXT in Wisconsin?
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 14:50:35 +0000
Organization: Exec-PC BBS Internet - Milwaukee, WI
Lines: 2
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Does anybody here know of any NeXT/Openstep development groups based in
Wisconsin (reasonably close to Milwaukee)?
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From: Jim Gagnon 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 13:13:51 -0700
Organization: Abacus Concepts, Inc.
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Jin Yu wrote:
> I missed the WWDC, and I am not able to find answers to the following
> questions on Apple's web sites. Maybe someone can fulfill my curiosity.
> 
> Specifically, will Rhapsody have these important features offered by
> Nextstep:
> 
> 1. Will Rhapsody support multi-user / time-sharing ?
>      Nextstep does, ie. many users can login and work on one machine
>      simultaneous.

Yes.  Long term, a Rhapsody will be Apple's server solutions, although I
understand that the server line is sticking with AIX for the time
being.  I believe it's due to the fact that OpenStep doesn't scale well
when you have lots of simultaneous users.

> 2. Will Rhapsody support a network-transparent window system?
>      Nextstep does, ie. a user may login to a remote Next, and run a graphical
>      application with the -NSHost (or -NXHost) switch, and have the
>      application displayed at his/her local Next. (how to integrate DPS and
>      QuickDraw to support remote display?) This remote display feature is a
>      common sense in the Unix/X world too.

Yes, although I imagine that QuickDraw 3D and QuickTime might not work
remotely.

> 3. Will Rhapsody have a Unix-like shell and various Unix utilities?
>      Nextstep does, ie. 4.3BSD on top of Mach, and it has all the standard
>      Unix utilities under /bin and /usr/bin.

Yes, although Apple will make every effort to hide this stuff from
people who don't want to see it.
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From: lespaul@shell1.tiac.net (David Wilson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WTB: NextDeveloper for NexStation.
Date: 24 May 97 00:15:07 GMT
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
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WTB: NextDeveloper for NexStation.

Looking for a copy of NextDeveloper for NexStation.

-Dave

email david_wilson@crd.lotus.com
email lespaul@shell1.tiac.net


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From: *jc@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Fri, 23 May 1997 22:43:28 +0100
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In article <3385FA0F.5439@abacus.com>, Jim Gagnon  wrote:

> Yes.  Long term, a Rhapsody will be Apple's server solutions, although I
> understand that the server line is sticking with AIX for the time
> being.  I believe it's due to the fact that OpenStep doesn't scale well
> when you have lots of simultaneous users.

   The very next OS to be produced for Apple's 500 and 700 series servers
is Rhapsody.  They are not waiting for any other reason than it ain't
ready.  thye already cancelled updates to AIX.

-- 
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.

Remove "*" to reply via email
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From: juergen.albertsen@flensburg.netsurf.de (Juergen Albertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: newbie Qs
Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 10:23:58 GMT
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On Thu, 22 May 1997 20:58:26 -0400, John Kuszewski
 wrote:

Hello John!

>Hi,
>
>I'm a Smalltalk programmer, and I'm thinking of 
>jumping ship to Rhapsody.  I have a few questions
>first, and I'd appreciate it if y'all could help
>me out:

Okay, I will do my best -- although I have to admit
that my Smalltalk experiences are not too numerous.

>1.  What's the OpenStep class library like?  How
>similar is it to a "standard" Smalltalk library?

I would say that the richness of functionality is similar
to the class library in Smalltalk systems. There are, however,
some differences in structure. OpenStep very often uses
a concept they call "class clusters". For example,
instantiating NSArray will give an instances of one of
the private subclasses NSArray, based upon the elements
you whant to store in that array. Unfortunateley, you cannot
browse the source code of the classes, so you have to
stick to the documenttation -- which, however, is very well
done.

One of the highlights of OpenStep is the ApplicationKit
to build UIs. In conjunction with the IB you can very rapidly
develop even sophisticate frontends (no, I'm not a staff member
of Apple :-).


>2.  I understand that the GC mechanism isn't as
>global as a Smalltalk GC.  How much memory management
>would I have to do myself?

Fortunately, in OpenStep they got rid of the malloc/free stuff
that drives you crazy when you program in C. They use a
reference counter mechanism and have  very consistent
conventions when to increase/decrease the counter 
(i.e. in updater methods). A singleton class keeps track of the
reference counters and in every event loop he looks whether one
fo the objects has a ref count of zero. Then it will be freed.

From my experience, I'd say there are very little problems with
this conecpt. Of course, a garbage collection is a 100 % smarter.
Problems occur when you have reference circles. An object
that retains another relases this (i.e. decrease its counter) when
it is freed itself (in a method called "dealloc"). At least this is
what the guidelines propose. But if it is never freed because it is
retained by the object it holds itself you are in trouble. So you have
to keep this in mind of it when you design your model.

>
>3.  What are the learning curves like for IB/PB/etc?

Coming from Smalltalk you might find the PB a bit clumsy, and you're
right. Based upon files and not upon a consistant image the tools
are not that integrated as they are in Smalltalk (at least in VW,
which is my only experience). From 4.0 on you can search for
implementors of a method etc. but this feature was quite buggy
and slow, so I didn't use it. Maybe it will beoce better.

The IB, however, did not gain its fame without a reason. It is not
only a tool to paint your UI, but you also model the controller layer
of your application. Reading through the documentaion you should be
able to use it effiently after a very short time.

>4.  What's the performance like for programs written
>in a very OO way?

Performance is similar to Smalltalk, I would say. One the annoying
things is that you have to link together your application. Like in any
other compiled language you have to build all your classes and then
the resulting object files have to be lnked together. As they are
quite large because of the dynamic binding this can take some time.

Runtime performance is as good as in Smalltalk and is becoming
better. OpenStep 4.0 was very slow, but in 4.1 they did a lot of
optimizations, and I think in 4.2 it will be even  faster.

>5.  What's EOF like?  How much time will I have to 
>spend thinking in terms of SQL records instead of 
>objects?  Are there any cheap/free database engines
>that can talk to EOF?

EOF is a very abstact persistency layer for relational databases. You
forunately don't have to deal wirth SQL (unless you want to do some
tricky stuff). Apart from some bugs (that may be gone in version 2.1)
it is very nice to work with EOF because it is almost like working
with an object oriented database. You can design your domain model
and than map it to tables in a database. You get your objects from the
storage by describing them with qualifiers. You can traverse
through your object graph and the objects you send messages to
are fetched on demand (like in ODBMS). Of course, when developing
a very large and complex application you have to keep in mind that
you're using an RDBMS. Someone with a lot of experience with
the VW object lense told me that EOF beats this. I don't know whether
this is right.

You can try OpenBase (http://www.openbase.com) where there's
a trial version of their database. For a database you need an
adaptor to connect to it which generates SQL for managing the DB.
I don't know whether someone wrote an adaptor for freeware DBs like
Postgres etc. Sorry.

>6.  [obviously more specific]  Are there tools for 
>building parsers for simple user-interaction languages?
>I'm thinking of something like a simple selection 
>language for a database app to be used by very 
>non-technical users.  Has anyone tried building something
>like a simple "flowchart-oriented language" (ie., user
>draws something like a flowchart using a MacDraw-like 
>toolset and the program uses it to select various 
>records from a database)?  If anyone has done this,
>I'd *really* like to hear how it was done and how 
>painful it was to implement in NeXTSTEP/OpenStep.

Okay, that's beyond my scope. 

>Thanks for any help you can offer!

I hope that helps and you can cope with my clumsy English

Have fun!

Jrgen

---
Jrgen Albertsen
juergen.albertsen@flensburg.netsurf.de
Face the facts -- forget euphoria!
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Prelude won't install DeveloperLibs
Date: 24 May 97 23:17:51 -0400
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  When I try to install the DeveloperLibs from the Prelude Openstep
Developer CD (on Mach) the installer seems to crash (it just disapears
without doing anything).

  If I open the installer app and then open the DeveloperLibs package
through that I can install it. However, I had problems the last time I did
it. I had to reboot for a different reason, and during the reboot some
errors came up when loading some libraries (something about an invalid CPU
type) and wouldn't let me go any further. I had to reinstall.

  Anyone else get around this?

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
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Date: 25 May 1997 03:57:50 GMT
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
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Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
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news:comp.lang.objective-c

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news:comp.object

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Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
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simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

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  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
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  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

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  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
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For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

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From: 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cable T.V & EQUIPMENT
Date: 25 May 1997 11:14:22 GMT
Organization: land of jesus
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you need cable T.V call us.
we can help you wite CONVERTERS & EQUIPMENT.
30 - days MONEY BACK**  1 YEAR WARRANTY.
e-mail me to: lavy@gate.net
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From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 07:04:14 -0600
Organization: Northwestern University
Lines: 35
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References: <5lvn4l$tje@src-news.pa.dec.com>
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In article <5lvn4l$tje@src-news.pa.dec.com>, jinyu@eagle.pa.dec.com (Jin
Yu) wrote:

> I missed the WWDC

I went and did the Rhapsody track. I'll try to answer your questions.

> 1. Will Rhapsody support multi-user / time-sharing ?
>      Nextstep does, ie. many users can login and work on one machine
>      simultaneous.

Yes. You can set up multiple UNIX usernames and passwords. You can telnet
to your Rhapsody box. Rhapsody will have the usual UNIX file system
permissions.

> 2. Will Rhapsody support a network-transparent window system?
>      Nextstep does, ie. a user may login to a remote Next, and run a graphical
>      application with the -NSHost (or -NXHost) switch, and have the
>      application displayed at his/her local Next. (how to integrate DPS and
>      QuickDraw to support remote display?) This remote display feature is a
>      common sense in the Unix/X world too.

Sorry, I don't know about this one.

> 3. Will Rhapsody have a Unix-like shell and various Unix utilities?
>      Nextstep does, ie. 4.3BSD on top of Mach, and it has all the standard
>      Unix utilities under /bin and /usr/bin.

Yes. Rhapsody will have the full BSD 4.4 distribution as an
optional-install item.

-- 
John Norstad


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From: brianw@sounds.wa.com (Brian Willoughby)
Subject: Re: Private to Todd Nathan
Message-ID: 
Organization: Sound Consulting, Bellevue, WA, USA
References: <5kt26q$2gl@shelob.afs.com> <5l2a63$e4c$1@news.Austria.EU.net>
Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 19:19:35 GMT
Lines: 20
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24553 comp.sys.next.software:29679

In article <5l2a63$e4c$1@news.Austria.EU.net>,
Stefan Schneider  wrote:
>
>On 05/08/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>>Todd, you contacted AFS about beta testing, but your email return 
>>address  is unreachable. Please
>>contact me with another alternative. Thanks.
>
>Me too, please, concerning LBII promotion issues.

Me too, regarding licensing of my MPEG_Play source code.

(gee, this Todd Nathan gets around quite a bit for someone without
a functional return email address :-)

-- 
Brian Willoughby	NEXTSTEP, OpenStep, Rhapsody Software Design
Sound Consulting	Bellevue, WA, U.S.A.
Registered NeXT/Apple Enterprise Alliance Partner
BrianW@SoundS.WA.com	NeXTmail welcome
####################################################################
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See report "www.cutting-edge.co.uk" in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.
Subject was: We have another WINNER.
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From: shaffer@durer.phyast.pitt.edu (C. David Shaffer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Application.rtf contains ActionCell.rtf...
Date: 26 May 1997 05:41:12 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: durer.phyast.pitt.edu

Hello,

I just discovered that my Application.rtf file in
/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/GeneralRef/02_ApplicationKit/Classes
is an exact duplicate of the ActionCell.rtf file in the same
directory.  This is in NS 3.3 developer (I bought the acadeic bundle
if it makes any differences).  Could someone send me the
Application.rtf file or tell me where to get it?  Many thanks in
advance!

David

-- 
David Shaffer
Department of Physics
Wayne State College
Wayne, NE  68787
shaffer@phyast.pitt.edu
NeXTMail/MIME welcome
####################################################################
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Application.rtf contains ActionCell.rtf...
Date: 26 May 1997 05:52:41 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 23
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In-Reply-To: 
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079

On 05/25/97, C. David Shaffer wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I just discovered that my Application.rtf file in
>/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/GeneralRef/02_ApplicationKit/Class
es
>is an exact duplicate of the ActionCell.rtf file in the same
>directory.  This is in NS 3.3 developer (I bought the acadeic bundle
>if it makes any differences).  Could someone send me the
>Application.rtf file or tell me where to get it?  Many thanks in
>advance!
>

	This is a known 'bug'..

	The file you are looking for is on www.next.com in the 
NeXTanswers..


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: Sven Droll
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GCC Available for Next???
Date: 26 May 1997 07:26:28 GMT
Organization: University of Wuerzburg, Germany
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5mbdv4$uuu@winx03.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de>
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X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

try
	ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de
under
	/next/Developer/languages/c/gcc.2.7.2.2.I.b.tar.gz

or search in 

	http://peanuts.leo.org/peanuts/


ciao
-- 
Sven Droll                                             __
______________________________________________________/ / ______ __
sdroll@mathematik.uni-wuerzburg.de                   / /_/  ___/
                                                    /_ _/  _/
                                                   =====\_/=======
                                                   LOGOUT FASCISM!
___________________________________________________________________
NeXT-mail, MIME-mail welcome ;-))
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From: Konstantin Wiesel 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: gcc compile under OS4.1?
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 11:38:06 +0000
Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany)
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I tried to compile Gcc 2.7.2.2 under OS4.1. It compile the stage1 compiler
but compiling stage 2 with stage 1 fails. The getattr programm bus errors
and make stops the compiling process. Does anybody had mor luck with this
one?



Regards
Konstantin Wiesel
Email:kwiesel@mailhost.jura.uni-bonn.de


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From: bruehl@oscar.met.FU-Berlin.DE (Ruediger Bruehl)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NXUserAborted replacement in OpenStep ?
Date: 26 May 1997 13:07:10 GMT
Organization: Freie Universitaet Berlin
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In NextStep a program can check if the user has pressed Command-dot by 
calling  "NXUserAborted()". This function isn't part of OpenStep 
anymore. What can I do to give the user the ability to interrupt the 
application?

Thanks,
Ruediger Bruehl

bruehl@kalium.physik.tu-berlin.de
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From: bungi@omnigroup.com (Timothy J. Wood)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: gcc compile under OS4.1?
Date: 26 May 1997 13:39:07 -0700
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Lines: 22
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References: 
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  There appears to be some interaction between the shared library support
added for 4.0 and gcc 2.7.2.x.  One alternative would be to use the
GNUSource.pkg available from OS4.2.  This contains a modified version of 
2.7.2.1.  You may be able to apply the patches between 2.7.2.1 and 2.7.2.2
to this version and get something that will build on OS 4.1.

  You shouldn't have to buy OS4.2 in order to get the GNUSource.pkg,
of course.  I don't know if Apple makes it available on their web site or
if you'll just need to find someone with a copy that you can ftp.

Konstantin Wiesel  writes:
>I tried to compile Gcc 2.7.2.2 under OS4.1. It compile the stage1 compiler
>but compiling stage 2 with stage 1 fails. The getattr programm bus errors
>and make stops the compiling process. Does anybody had mor luck with this
>one?

>Regards
>Konstantin Wiesel
>Email:kwiesel@mailhost.jura.uni-bonn.de

-tim
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From: "Robert Norman" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Tab to buttons?
Date: Mon, 26 May 1997 15:09:15 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
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I'm a WWDC convert trying to get in step with OpenStep. I'm working through
the tutorials and making some progress however -- when I use IB to work on a
view,  I'm having trouble controlling the tabbing.  For example, in Currency
Converter with two selectable NSTextFields and a button, after I make the
nextKeyView connections between the two NSTextFields, which I confirm using
the inspector the tabbing order goes from the textFields through the button
and back to the first TextField.  This tabbing order problem has cropped up
in the other tutorials as well including out of order elements and -- again
-- buttons!

This is a low level question, I know, but can anyone help? 
(I assume that other facilities will be created for us newbies soon). 

Robert Norman
rob@neurodata.com
rjnorman@earthlink.net
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Private to Todd Nathan
Date: 27 May 1997 00:25:20 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <5md9lg$5h1@shelob.afs.com>
References: 
Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.203

Brian Willoughby writes
> Stefan Schneider  wrote:
> >On 05/08/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> >>Todd, you contacted AFS about beta testing, but your email return 
> >>address  is unreachable. Please
> >>contact me with another alternative. Thanks.
> >
> >Me too, please, concerning LBII promotion issues.
> 
> Me too, regarding licensing of my MPEG_Play source code.

Todd's working address is .

--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: shaffer@durer.phyast.pitt.edu (C. David Shaffer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OOE client library and docs?
Date: 27 May 1997 03:13:55 GMT
Organization: University of Pittsburgh
Lines: 15
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: durer.phyast.pitt.edu


I'd like to build an OOE client (a document which can contain OOE
documents) but everything I've read says that the OOE client libs and
docs must be licensed from Xanthus (LightHouse?).  Is this true?
Maybe I'll have to live with Object Links.

David

-- 
David Shaffer
Department of Physics
Wayne State College
Wayne, NE  68787
shaffer@phyast.pitt.edu
NeXTMail/MIME welcome
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From: weesh@mindspring.com (Kenneth H. Wieschhoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody package
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:10:45 +0100
Organization: Siren Enterprises
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---------------------------------------------------
 
To members of the Apple Developer Programs:

You've asked for it, and here it is. If you are a program member and are 
signed up for our seeding program, you too can get Prelude to Rhapsody. 
Due to licensing restrictions this is a limited offer and you'll need to 
request it, but if you want it and will use it, you should be able to get 
it. Note the special addition of WebObjects (which was provided as a 
bonus to WWDC attendees) is not included in this package, but all of the 
rest of the software you need to get started is.

Regards,

Mark B. Johnson
mjohnson@apple.com
Director, Rhapsody Developer Team

------------------------------------------------------------------
Prelude to Rhapsody for Apple Developer Program Members

Due to the phenomenal success of the Prelude to Rhapsody bundle that was 
given to all attendees of last week's Worldwide Developers Conference, 
Apple Developer Relations has obtained a limited supply of Prelude to 
Rhapsody development tools and is very pleased to be able to offer these 
to members of Apple's Developer Programs.

Apple is making these OpenStep development tools available free of charge 
to qualified program members on a first-come, first-served basis. The set 
of tools includes OPENSTEP User 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2, OPENSTEP 
Developer 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2, OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 for Windows 
NT and Windows 95 Prerelease, and associated online documentation.

We want to make sure you are ready for Rhapsody, which is why we are 
providing you with this early opportunity to gain hands-on experience 
with OpenStep tools and APIs. The tools are Intel-based, but they will 
allow you to start learning the OpenStep programming environment, which 
will evolve to form the basis of the Rhapsody platform and the Yellow 
Box. Apple remains on schedule to deliver a Rhapsody Developer Release 
later this year, in preparation for the introduction of customer releases 
in 1998.

You must act quickly if you want to take advantage of this terrific 
offer. Supplies are limited and we want to make sure that you have the 
opportunity to spend some quality time working with the OpenStep tools 
prior to the Rhapsody Developer Release.

Who qualifies for this offer?

ALL levels of Macintosh Developer Program and Apple Media Program members 
worldwide:

- who have signed non-disclosure agreements
- who did not already receive the OpenStep tools as part of their WWDC 
bundle

Note that this offer is limited to one set of tools per program 
membership.

Additional information on the WWDC Prelude to Rhapsody package may be 
found at 
. To request your free OpenStep tools (Part Number R0724ZA) today, 
contact us in one of the following ways:

Phone
1-800-282-2732 Toll Free (US)
1-800-637-0029 Toll Free (Canada)
1-716-871-6555 International

Email
order.adc@apple.com

FAX
716-871-6511
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From: weesh@mindspring.com (Kenneth H. Wieschhoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q] TravelAdvisor : Prelude To Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 08:13:33 +0100
Organization: Siren Enterprises
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I'm going through the Prelude To Rhapsody tutorial and have encountered
some inconsistencies.

In the Travel Advisor application, I connected an NSTextField to an NSForm
in the tab order.  When I test the interface with the cursor in the
NSTExtField, I expect it to go directly into the first text field in the
NSForm but I loose the cursor "somewhere" for one tab.  How do I track
down what's happening?


Also, is there an Undo mechanism available in the framework?

->Ken
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From: weesh@mindspring.com (Kenneth H. Wieschhoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q] Prelude to Rhapsody
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 11:29:38 +0100
Organization: Siren Enterprises
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I'm going through the Prelude To Rhapsody tutorial and have encountered
some inconsistencies.

Page 69 talks about re-using the Converter class defined in the
CurrencyConverter project.  When I copy the class from IB's classes tab
and attempt to paste it into the TravelAdvisor .nib I get the following
message:

"An unexpected error has occurred which may cause InterfaceBuilder to
malfunction. You may want to save your documents and quite
InterfaceBuilder."

"Error ***-[IBClassDescriptor initWithDictionary:] selector not recognized."

What the hell does this mean?  There's a warning icon which would indicate
to mostsentient beings this is not a volatile situation, but I'm unable to
continue.

.....

Upon further investigation it looks like I needed to copy the Converter
Instance (not the class).  When I closed and reopened the nib file
magically the Converter class now exists.......

This is becoming increasingly confusing.

Is anyone from Apple/NeXT paying attention here?
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From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: gcc in Prelude/OS4.2 ?
Date: 27 May 1997 13:00:30 -0500
Organization: Internet Nebraska
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flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit) writes:
>OPENSTEP 4.2 was announced to contain a compiler based on gcc 2.7.2.
>Can somebody comment on this ? Is it included in the Prelude package ?
>Then, could somebody put the sources of the compiler (the GNU package
>I suppose) on an ftp server ? I'd love to try and get gcc 2.7.2
>working with NS/SPARC and NS/HP-PA and therefore am hoping that the
>changes for OS 4.2 can be ported to NS 3.3.

Reading specs from /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/m68k-next-nextstep3/2.7.2/specs
gcc version 2.7.2

Reading specs from
C:/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/gcc-lib/i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5\2.7.2.1\specs
gcc version 2.7.2.1 for NeXT PDO
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] TravelAdvisor : Prelude To Rhapsody
Date: 27 May 1997 18:05:41 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 05/26/97, Kenneth H. Wieschhoff wrote:
>I'm going through the Prelude To Rhapsody tutorial and have encountered
>some inconsistencies.
>
>In the Travel Advisor application, I connected an NSTextField to an NSForm
>in the tab order.  When I test the interface with the cursor in the
>NSTExtField, I expect it to go directly into the first text field in the
>NSForm but I loose the cursor "somewhere" for one tab.  How do I track
>down what's happening?

There seem to be several people having problems with getting Tab Ordering 
working using Prelude.... here's a copy of a question I answered for 
someone else in e-mail which may also help some others:

--------------------

> My problem is with nextKeyView - I hook up fields as it says in the
> tutorial, but it doesn't appear to affect the tab order.  I tested it
> with a window that had just four simple textfields.  I ctl-drag from
> field #1 to field #3 - go to the inspector and click on the nextKeyView
> and then on connect. The little line is drawn as in the tutorial.  The
> connection appears down at the bottom.  But when I save the changes and
> test the interface, the tab order is still field #1 to field #2.  I've
> run into very few bugs with NeXT software, so I'm assuming there's
> something I'm missing here.  Since you appear to be a seasoned
> developer, I was wondering if you ran into this with "Prelude....", and
> what the story might be.

You also need to connect the initialFirstResponder outlet from the window 
to the first textfield.   i.e. Ctl-Drag a connection from the Window object 
containing the textfields to TextField #1 and then select 
"initialFirstResponder" in the connection Inspector and select connect.    
The initialFirstResponder connection determines which textfield will 
contain the cursor when the window is initially displayed.  Not sure why 
this is necessary - it doesn't seem as if it should be and I don't remember 
it being like that in earlier releases.

--------------------



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: markfr@markfr .cse.tek.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: 27 May 1997 17:51:26 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR USA
Lines: 13
Distribution: USA
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.software:29710 comp.sys.next.programmer:24568

I have looked at Apple's web sites, but I just want to double
check.  Does anyone know if I develop an Openstep app using
Enterprise on NT, will other users using NT be able to run
the app without having openstep on their machines.  Will the
same be true for Windows 95?  How easy is the integration with
windows' DLLs?

- Thanks for any help,
Mark

--
Mark Frank
markfr@markfr.cse.tek.com
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Private to Todd Nathan
Date: 27 May 1997 20:11:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <5mff4k$lou$1@news.digifix.com>
References:  <5md9lg$5h1@shelob.afs.com>
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On 05/26/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>Brian Willoughby writes
>> Stefan Schneider  wrote:
>> >On 05/08/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>> >>Todd, you contacted AFS about beta testing, but your email return 
>> >>address  is unreachable. Please
>> >>contact me with another alternative. Thanks.
>> >
>> >Me too, please, concerning LBII promotion issues.
>> 
>> Me too, regarding licensing of my MPEG_Play source code.
>
>Todd's working address is .

	Its important to note that this might not work for people.

	Many sites have disabled the % relaying hack, since spammers 
are notorious for abusing it, and there is very little need for it now 
anyways.


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Private to Todd Nathan
Date: 27 May 1997 20:11:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 25
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References:  <5md9lg$5h1@shelob.afs.com>
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In-Reply-To: <5md9lg$5h1@shelob.afs.com>
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-U-00079

On 05/26/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>Brian Willoughby writes
>> Stefan Schneider  wrote:
>> >On 05/08/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>> >>Todd, you contacted AFS about beta testing, but your email return 
>> >>address  is unreachable. Please
>> >>contact me with another alternative. Thanks.
>> >
>> >Me too, please, concerning LBII promotion issues.
>> 
>> Me too, regarding licensing of my MPEG_Play source code.
>
>Todd's working address is .

	Its important to note that this might not work for people.

	Many sites have disabled the % relaying hack, since spammers 
are notorious for abusing it, and there is very little need for it now 
anyways.


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: pretzl@pobox.com (Allan Peretz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 23:14:10 GMT
Organization: Planet Digital Network Technologies
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On 23 May 1997 02:07:15 GMT, Preston Holmes  wrote:

>I'm trying to find someone who attended WWDC but isn't interested in the
>"Prelude to Rhapsody" package of CDs they were given.  I wasn't able to
>attend WWDC but would love the CDs to learn about OpenStep.

Yeah!

What kind of crap is this?  I can't find a reasonably priced copy of
OpenStep 4.2 for Mach Intel Developer.  Finally Apple has something
that has piqued my interest and I can't get it without spending 1/5 of
my annual salary.  This is not the way to get me to buy into Rhapsody.
As a computer consultant with a reasonably large firm, getting my
interest could mean significant revenue for Apple later.

Why not rename OpenStep 4.2 to "Rhapsody Beta 0.1a" and give copies
away to all interested parties? 
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From: Steve Kellener 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:24:30 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Lines: 6
Message-ID: <338B8919.6351@earthlink.net>
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To: Allan Peretz 
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Apple's decision to not lower the price of Openstep for Mach is "one of
the worst ideas in the history of bad ideas"!!!!


STEVE K.

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From: Steve Kellener 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Tue, 27 May 1997 18:48:13 -0700
Organization: EarthLink Network, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <338B8EA4.1D57@earthlink.net>
References: <5m2u4j$2b5$3@news1.ucsd.edu> <338b6960.76768104@news.pdnt.com> <338B8919.6351@earthlink.net>
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Got this from MacInsider
http://www.macinsider.com/

>If you're a member of Apple's Developer Programs and you didn't go 
>to WWDC, you can still get Prelude to Rhapsody free. It's available 
>on a first-come, first-serve basis, and it doesn't come with 
>WebObjects, but all the other stuff (OPENSTEP User 4.2 for Mach 
>Prerelease 2, OPENSTEP Developer 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2, 
>OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 for Windows NT and Windows 95 
>Prerelease, and online documentation) is there. 

>To get it, ask apple...
>order.adc@apple.com


Hope this helps,

STEVE K.

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From: "Mike Shields" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: 27 May 97 09:58:55 -0600
Organization: Internet Connect, Inc. -- http://www.inconnect.com	
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On Tue, May 27, 1997 5:14 PM, Allan Peretz  wrote:
>On 23 May 1997 02:07:15 GMT, Preston Holmes  wrote:
>
>>I'm trying to find someone who attended WWDC but isn't interested in the
>>"Prelude to Rhapsody" package of CDs they were given.  I wasn't able to
>>attend WWDC but would love the CDs to learn about OpenStep.
>
>Yeah!
>
>What kind of crap is this?  I can't find a reasonably priced copy of
>OpenStep 4.2 for Mach Intel Developer.  Finally Apple has something
>that has piqued my interest and I can't get it without spending 1/5 of
>my annual salary.  This is not the way to get me to buy into Rhapsody.
>As a computer consultant with a reasonably large firm, getting my
>interest could mean significant revenue for Apple later.
>
>Why not rename OpenStep 4.2 to "Rhapsody Beta 0.1a" and give copies
>away to all interested parties? 
>

Are you a developer registered with Apple's Developer Program? Have you
signed the Seed Agreement? If so:

>Additional information on the WWDC Prelude to Rhapsody package may be 
>found at

>..html>. To request your free OpenStep tools (Part Number R0724ZA) today, 
>contact us in one of the following ways:
>
>Phone
>1-800-282-2732 Toll Free (US)
>1-800-637-0029 Toll Free (Canada)
>1-716-871-6555 International
>
>Email
>order.adc@apple.com
>
>FAX
>716-871-6511
>

So there... it is free!

Mike


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From: Blake LeBaron 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 00:47:33 -0700
Organization: University of Wisconsin
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> 
> I have looked at Apple's web sites, but I just want to double
> check.  Does anyone know if I develop an Openstep app using
> Enterprise on NT, will other users using NT be able to run
> the app without having openstep on their machines.  Will the
> same be true for Windows 95?  How easy is the integration with
> windows' DLLs?
> 

This is a very good question which I'm curious about too.  Please
post the reply if you get one.

Blake
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From: AlvinKoh@WriteMe.COM (Al)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 16:04:50 +0800
Organization: Motorola Cellular Infrastructure Group
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <5m2u4j$2b5$3@news1.ucsd.edu> <338b6960.76768104@news.pdnt.com> <338B8919.6351@earthlink.net> <338B8EA4.1D57@earthlink.net>
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Like it says, "IF".

How about those of us interested hobbists (read "Potential Shareware
Developers")? How do we get a copy?

Alvin

In article <338B8EA4.1D57@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:

>Got this from MacInsider
>http://www.macinsider.com/
>
>>If you're a member of Apple's Developer Programs and you didn't go 
>>to WWDC, you can still get Prelude to Rhapsody free. It's available 
>>on a first-come, first-serve basis, and it doesn't come with 
>>WebObjects, but all the other stuff (OPENSTEP User 4.2 for Mach 
>>Prerelease 2, OPENSTEP Developer 4.2 for Mach Prerelease 2, 
>>OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 for Windows NT and Windows 95 
>>Prerelease, and online documentation) is there. 
>
>>To get it, ask apple...
>>order.adc@apple.com
>
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>STEVE K.

-- 

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
  Alvin Koh       

 ...Today's dreamers are tomorrow's achievers....ZZZZZZZZZZZ....

($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)                                   
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From: "Bruce J. Dolby" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Resize a gif (the hard way)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 10:11:44 +0100
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Hi gif experts,

I have a gif picture and I would like to resize it.
My problems is that want to do this from the command line.
Are there any tools out there and where can I find them?


Thanks

BJD
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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Forcing IB to (really) load a palette
Date: 28 May 1997 12:54:14 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Hi all!

I created an IB palette, to preserve my CVS info the cheap way (this time  
using notifications) but have discovered that IB is too smart, and doesn't  
actually load the palette until it's selected in the palettes panel.

This presents a little problem, if I forget to load the palette before  
saving my nibs.

So, can I force IB to load the palette (I know that if it's the selected  
palette when I quit, it's selected when I restart), or must I just be very  
careful? Or must I roll up my sleeves and write a proper bundle?

Thanks,

Dave

-------
 /\/\   Dave Coyle   
/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / /  118/119 Lower Baggot Street
 \/\/   Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
        Tel: +353 1 607 9008    WWW:  http://www.ctp.com>
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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: SOLVED: Forcing IB to (really) load a palette
Date: 28 May 1997 16:18:30 GMT
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In article <5mh9tm$i2g@concorde.ctp.com> dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)  
writes:

The solution is to catch the appWillTerminate: notification, and examine  
the defaults for loaded palettes, see where I am, and then set the active  
palette default to this value.

Thanks to Georg (sitting next to me here!) who reminded me of  
NSApplication's notifications....

Dave
-------
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/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Resize a gif (the hard way)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 12:57:01 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 28-May-97 Resize a gif
(the hard way) by "Bruce J. Dolby"@pfh.sel 
> I have a gif picture and I would like to resize it.
> My problems is that want to do this from the command line.
> Are there any tools out there and where can I find them?

Search for the 'pbmplus' utilities.  They'll let you do many wondrous
things with images from the command line.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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Subject: Re: Perl 5.01 available?
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Matthew_Seaman@plsys.co.uk (Matthew Seaman) wrote:
>In  "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
 
>>   Is Perl 5.01 available for OpenStep 4.2? Can someone point me to it?

>eagle:~:% /usr/bin/perl -v

>This is perl, version 5.001

>        Unofficial patchlevel 1m.

>Copyright 1987-1994, Larry Wall

>Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or 
the
>GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5.0 source kit.

>It's bundled.

Can you compile the perl source that should be included (per the GNU
Public License) with the compiler included in openStep 4.2 ???

I've tried to do that on OpenStep 4.1 and it doesn't work.
Presumably, the Perl binary bundled with 4.1 was compiled on 3.3.

Did NeXT fix this problem in 4.2?

Incidentally, perl version 5.004 was released two weaks ago.
It compiles out of the box on OpenStep 4.1.  Unlike 5.001, version
5.004 compiles to a fat binary by default (only if you have that
compiler option installed, of course).

-- HansM
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From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: 28 May 1997 14:18:15 -0500
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markfr@markfr .cse.tek.com writes:
>I have looked at Apple's web sites, but I just want to double
>check.  Does anyone know if I develop an Openstep app using
>Enterprise on NT, will other users using NT be able to run
>the app without having openstep on their machines.  Will the
>same be true for Windows 95?  How easy is the integration with
>windows' DLLs?

Nope.  All OpenStep Enterprise for Windows NT programs require the 
OpenStep runtime.

I have not seen a price list for this but it was $799 retail before the
WWDC.  I heard it was lowered some.
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From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: gcc in Prelude/OS4.2 ?
Date: 28 May 1997 14:21:39 -0500
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bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis) writes:
>Reading specs from /usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/m68k-next-nextstep3/2.7.2/specs
>gcc version 2.7.2

>Reading specs from
>C:/NeXT/NextDeveloper/Libraries/gcc-lib/i386-nextpdo-winnt3.5\2.7.2.1\specs
>gcc version 2.7.2.1 for NeXT PDO

Oh what a moron I am.  I listed the wrong version.

Here is the correct version from OS Mach (m68k) 4.2 beta.
Reading specs from /lib/m68k/specs
NeXT Software, Inc. version cc-744.12, gcc version 2.7.2.1

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: 28 May 1997 19:02:23 GMT
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On 05/28/97, Al wrote:
>Like it says, "IF".
>
>How about those of us interested hobbists (read "Potential Shareware
>Developers")? How do we get a copy?
>

	Either pay the $250 to join the Apple Developer program at the 
lowest level (which gets you loads of material in a timely fashion) or 
wait for Premier.

	Thats not unreasonable.  



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
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On 05/28/97, Mr. Jeremy Bettis wrote:
>markfr@markfr .cse.tek.com writes:
>>I have looked at Apple's web sites, but I just want to double
>>check.  Does anyone know if I develop an Openstep app using
>>Enterprise on NT, will other users using NT be able to run
>>the app without having openstep on their machines.  Will the
>>same be true for Windows 95?  How easy is the integration with
>>windows' DLLs?
>
>Nope.  All OpenStep Enterprise for Windows NT programs require the 
>OpenStep runtime.
>
>I have not seen a price list for this but it was $799 retail before 
the
>WWDC.  I heard it was lowered some.
>

	Its important to note also that when Rhapsody ships the 
Runtime costs drop to ZERO.


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: George Pipkin 
Subject: EOM - master/detail
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I've been playing around with the "Prelude to Rhapsody" that was passed
out at the WWDC. One problem I've been running into involves dragging
master/detail relationships from Enterprise Objects Modeler into the
Interface Builder.  According to the Getting Started manual, if you drag
a *relationship* from the modeler onto a window, a master-detail
interface should appear on the window involving two table view objects -
one for the master entity, and the other for the detail entity.  But
when I try this, only one table view object appears, and it represents
the master entity.  Is there some trick to this ?

                             - George Pipkin
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From: pretzl@pobox.com (Allan Peretz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
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On 28 May 1997 19:02:23 GMT, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
wrote:

>
>	Either pay the $250 to join the Apple Developer program at the 
>lowest level (which gets you loads of material in a timely fashion) or 
>wait for Premier.
>
>	Thats not unreasonable.  
>
Scott:

I'm one step ahead of you... Unfortunately, as I was told by an Apple
employee, the prelude packages will probably be long gone before my
membership in the developer program gets processed.  Sigh... 

So once again, it looks like a potential advocate for an intriguing
new product is getting the door slammed in his face.  And all I wanted
to do was learn this product so I could find better ways for my
clients to use it in their businesses.  Your loss, Apple.

Allan Peretz

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
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In article <5mhvfv$k1i$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>On 05/28/97, Al wrote:
>>Like it says, "IF".

>>How about those of us interested hobbists (read "Potential Shareware
>>Developers")? How do we get a copy?

>        Either pay the $250 to join the Apple Developer program at the 
>lowest level (which gets you loads of material in a timely fashion) or 
>wait for Premier.
>
>        Thats not unreasonable.  

Let me second that.  If you are a hobbyist, and find $250 out of line, then 
you likely do not need Rhapsody as yet.  From the people I have talked with, 
it is still a tad scary in terms of eventual stability and functionality.  If 
you do need it, then the cost is fairly minimal compared with the other pro 
tour tools you need..

As an example, I bought QC for personal projects, but I have not acquirred 
spotlight.  When work next does a serious Mac project, I will suggest it.

I suspect, based on Apple's previous behavior, that prices will drop 
precipitously once release nears.  They are aware that they have to get the OS 
out to people, and they seem to have enough clue today (though possibly not 
tomorrow) to do so.

I was one of the many who could not afford the price of admission at Next when 
I was a student.  I am glad that times have changed.

Scott

Scott Ellsworth          scott@eviews.com
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams
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From: mat0001@jove.acs.unt.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 19:26:48 -0600
Organization: University of North Texas
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Sounds like you should have signed up sooner. OpenStep as been around for
a while and NeXTStep on Intel even longer.  Why didn't you try with NeXT
sooner? just wondering....  

Michael

In article <338cc67d.166154550@news.pdnt.com>, pretzl@pobox.com (Allan
Peretz) wrote:

> On 28 May 1997 19:02:23 GMT, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >       Either pay the $250 to join the Apple Developer program at the 
> >lowest level (which gets you loads of material in a timely fashion) or 
> >wait for Premier.
> >
> >       Thats not unreasonable.  
> >
> Scott:
> 
> I'm one step ahead of you... Unfortunately, as I was told by an Apple
> employee, the prelude packages will probably be long gone before my
> membership in the developer program gets processed.  Sigh... 
> 
> So once again, it looks like a potential advocate for an intriguing
> new product is getting the door slammed in his face.  And all I wanted
> to do was learn this product so I could find better ways for my
> clients to use it in their businesses.  Your loss, Apple.
> 
> Allan Peretz
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From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>	Its important to note also that when Rhapsody ships the 
>Runtime costs drop to ZERO.

On WinNT?   Deploying  a product on Rapsody is going to be just as hard as
NeXTSTEP was.  No one will want it unless they can run all of their favorite
Winders programs on the same computer.
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From: George Lurker 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Technical Recruiters
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:45:39 -0700
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To anyone living in the San Francisco Bayarea:

Complimate Technical Staffing (Sunnyvale, CA) is seeking people with
programming and other Software backgrounds who wish to work as Technical
recruiters.

If you are interested please call 408-733-8994
Or e-mail: CareerDesk@complimate.com
Or fax: 408-733-0968
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From: AlvinKoh@WriteMe.COM (Al)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:51:41 +0800
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I agree that $250 is not unreasonable. Just that since Rhapsody is the new
direction, giving away Prelude will be helpful in increasing the developer
base.

Al

In article <5mih41$459$1@news01.deltanet.com>, scott@eviews.com (Scott
Ellsworth) wrote:

>In article <5mhvfv$k1i$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:
>>On 05/28/97, Al wrote:
>>>Like it says, "IF".
>
>>>How about those of us interested hobbists (read "Potential Shareware
>>>Developers")? How do we get a copy?
>
>>        Either pay the $250 to join the Apple Developer program at the 
>>lowest level (which gets you loads of material in a timely fashion) or 
>>wait for Premier.
>>
>>        Thats not unreasonable.  
>
>Let me second that.  If you are a hobbyist, and find $250 out of line, then 
>you likely do not need Rhapsody as yet.  From the people I have talked with, 
>it is still a tad scary in terms of eventual stability and functionality.  If 
>you do need it, then the cost is fairly minimal compared with the other pro 
>tour tools you need..
>
>As an example, I bought QC for personal projects, but I have not acquirred 
>spotlight.  When work next does a serious Mac project, I will suggest it.
>
>I suspect, based on Apple's previous behavior, that prices will drop 
>precipitously once release nears.  They are aware that they have to get the OS 
>out to people, and they seem to have enough clue today (though possibly not 
>tomorrow) to do so.
>
>I was one of the many who could not afford the price of admission at Next when 
>I was a student.  I am glad that times have changed.
>
>Scott
>
>Scott Ellsworth          scott@eviews.com
>"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
>results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
>"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

-- 

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
  Alvin Koh       

 ...Today's dreamers are tomorrow's achievers....ZZZZZZZZZZZ....

($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)-($$$)                                   
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: 29 May 1997 03:42:53 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/28/97, Al wrote:
>I agree that $250 is not unreasonable. Just that since Rhapsody is 
the new
>direction, giving away Prelude will be helpful in increasing the 
developer
>base.
>

	Apple did give it away to developers who were serious enough 
to attend WWDC.

	Apple is giving it away to existing Apple Developers as long 
as they have supply.

	Apple SHOULD make it affordable for Developers to buy NOW.  At 
the very most the same as the $299 Edu price, with the same -no 
deploy- license that Educational users get.

	I sympathize, but there are still licensing costs associated 
with OpenStep Mach that won't be with Rhapsody...

-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: 29 May 1997 03:31:46 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/28/97, Allan Peretz wrote:
>On 28 May 1997 19:02:23 GMT, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
>wrote:
>
>>
>>	Either pay the $250 to join the Apple Developer program at the 
>>lowest level (which gets you loads of material in a timely fashion) 
or 
>>wait for Premier.
>>
>>	Thats not unreasonable.  
>>
>Scott:
>
>I'm one step ahead of you... Unfortunately, as I was told by an Apple
>employee, the prelude packages will probably be long gone before my
>membership in the developer program gets processed.  Sigh... 
>
>So once again, it looks like a potential advocate for an intriguing
>new product is getting the door slammed in his face.  And all I 
wanted
>to do was learn this product so I could find better ways for my
>clients to use it in their businesses.  Your loss, Apple.
>

	Signing up will get you DR of Rhapsody sometime in the next 
2-3 months... and again, you'll have a head start...

	You could buy a used copy of 4.x on the Net....

	Or find a student and get them to buy you a copy through the 
edu discount.

	COMMENT: Apple should make the Developer Program pricing for 
OpenStep/Intel the same as the Educational EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.... 
this would get those who didn't get the free version up and running..



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: 29 May 1997 03:44:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/28/97, Mr. Jeremy Bettis wrote:
>sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>>	Its important to note also that when Rhapsody ships the 
>>Runtime costs drop to ZERO.
>
>On WinNT?   Deploying  a product on Rapsody is going to be just
>as hard as NeXTSTEP was.  No one will want it unless they can run
>all of their favorite Winders programs on the same computer.
>

	I question this assertion...  but I believe this is only made 
because you don't understand what the Runtime is...

	First off, the Runtime costs I was discussing are for NT.

	Secondly, they can run whatever app they want beside it since 
OpenStep/NT  is the OpenStep/APIs on the NT Operating System.




-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Anyone using Ping.app under 4.x?
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.software
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:04:06 -0700
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Ping.app crashes immediately on launch under OS/mach 4.1

gdb reports this:

GDB 4.14  (NEXTSTEP 4.0 --target i386), Copyright 1995 Free Software
Foundation, Inc...
Reading symbols from /LocalApps/Ping.app/Ping...(no debugging symbols
found)...done.
Reading symbols from /usr/shlib/libni_s.A.shlib...(no debugging symbols
found)...done.
Reading symbols from /usr/shlib/libMedia_s.A.shlib...done.
Reading symbols from /usr/shlib/libNeXT_s.C.shlib...done.
Reading symbols from /usr/shlib/libsys_s.B.shlib...done.

(gdb) run
Starting program: /LocalApps/Ping.app/Ping 

Program exited normally.
No stack.
(gdb) q

has anyone else been able to use it under 4.1?

Thanks
TjL

-- 
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/ 
"The best things in life are made into inferior 
 versions and bundled with the latest Microsoft systems"
NS/OS users: My 'other sites' page has been entirely reworked



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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: nevermind -- Re: Anyone using Ping.app under 4.x?
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:43:29 -0700
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One of the nibs wasn't readable.... fixed...

TjL


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From: stephlise@telco.com (Steph & Lise)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Cum visit our free BBS
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 22:38:17 GMT
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Free Adult Internet Connection Worldwid- Via Our Bbs.
Follow the link and enjoy...
http://cybercity.hko.net/la/interbbs/freenet/free.htm



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It may also be an image too small for newsbot to be activated.
See report in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

Date: Thu May 29 11:25:13 1997

Original subject was:
Cum visit our free BBS

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From: juergen.albertsen@flensburg.netsurf.de (Juergen Albertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: Wed, 28 May 1997 18:22:54 GMT
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>I have looked at Apple's web sites, but I just want to double
>check.  Does anyone know if I develop an Openstep app using
>Enterprise on NT, will other users using NT be able to run
>the app without having openstep on their machines.  [...]

Anyone who wants to be able to run an OpenStep application on its box
has to install the OpenStep deployment version (on the same CD as your
development version). 

>     [..] Will the
>same be true for Windows 95?  How easy is the integration with
>windows' DLLs?

Starting with OpenStep 4.2 you will also be able to run your apps
on Win95 (but not to develop them). OpenStep DLLs don't intefer with
Win DLLs. Personally, I like the fact that they reside in a sparate
directory, rather than in the depths of the windows directories.

Regards,

Jrgen


---
Jrgen Albertsen
juergen.albertsen@flensburg.netsurf.de
Face the facts -- forget euphoria!
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From: "Frank Alviani" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Intel Hardware Configuration Question
Date: 29 May 97 08:53:25 -0500
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Hello, All!

This may not be quite the right newsgroup for this question, so I ask for
your patience in advance....

I am a Mac programmer who is trying to assemble an inexpensive Intel system
for my home, out of my own pocket, so I can start working with the Prelude
To Rhapsody material provided at WWDC (my company doesn't have any spare
machines to lend me). Not being intimate with the Intel world, I've found
the configuration guide slightly obscure. It seems that (apart from
performance questions) there is no problem with using an EIDE hard disk in
the system, as long as there is a SCSI CD-ROM to install from. In some of
the other material (such as some of the NextAnswers) that ATAPI CD-ROMs
(which, if I understand correctly, attach to an EIDE controller but appear
to be SCSI drives) are supported. My questions are:

1) Is it possible to get by with an ATAPI CD-ROM, and avoid the additional
expense of a SCSI controller and CD-ROM? If so, are there any tricks to
getting the system set up that way so that I can install OpenStep from the
CD-ROMs?
2) I am planning on putting 64M of EDO RAM in the system. Is this adequate?

I realize that this is not going to be a screaming performer, but I have
severe budget limitations to work within.

Thanks in advance for all of your help.

Frank Alviani


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Date: 29 May 1997 10:06:22 EST
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From: bestor@dpls.dacc.wisc.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT in Wisconsin?
Date: 27 May 1997 17:29:05 GMT
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Colin Hanson  wrote:
>Does anybody here know of any NeXT/Openstep development groups based in
>Wisconsin (reasonably close to Milwaukee)?

There's a bunch of NeXT users in Madison, in addition to a user group MadNUG 
that meets once a month. There's also still a few NeXT's actively being used 
on campus, at least I'm aware of some in Chemistry, Mathematics and Social 
Sciences (having worked in all three). Perhaps there's more. I'm not aware of 
any companies in Madison developing focusing solely on NEXTSTEP development 
though.

- Gareth
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From: Jim Gagnon 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 09:54:19 -0700
Organization: Abacus Concepts, Inc.
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John Christie wrote:
> In article <3385FA0F.5439@abacus.com>, Jim Gagnon  wrote:
> 
>> Yes.  Long term, a Rhapsody will be Apple's server solutions, although I
>> understand that the server line is sticking with AIX for the time
>> being.  I believe it's due to the fact that OpenStep doesn't scale well
>> when you have lots of simultaneous users.
> 
>    The very next OS to be produced for Apple's 500 and 700 series servers
> is Rhapsody.  They are not waiting for any other reason than it ain't
> ready.  thye already cancelled updates to AIX.

Interesting.  The long-time NeXT guys tell me that NeXTStep has real
issues as a server OS.  Apparently, if you put more than twelve-or-so
users on it at a time, it really bogs down.  Also, there's a limit of
200 processes in NeXTStep, which is actually pretty low for even a
client-side OS.  To top it off, a NeXTStep system really needs the
protection of a firewall -- security is definitely behind the levels
defined by Solaris and AIX.
  Apple may have cancelled updates to AIX (and who can blame them), but
they've got some work before Rhapsody is up to snuff as a standalone
Server.
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From: mwyner@apple.com (Michelle Wyner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] TravelAdvisor : Prelude To Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 11:42:01 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer
Lines: 12
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References: 
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In article ,
weesh@mindspring.com (Kenneth H. Wieschhoff) wrote:

> Also, is there an Undo mechanism available in the framework?

No, there currently is no Undo mechanism in Interface Builder (and note: I
am not the person to talk to about putting it in.  The engineers know this
is a feature that is wanted).

-- Michelle Wyner
   Apple Developer Tech Support
   Rhapsody Sample Code Flunkie
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From: cord@concentric.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Thu, 29 May 97 20:27:42 GMT
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In article <338B8919.6351@earthlink.net>, skellener@earthlink.net wrote:
>Apple's decision to not lower the price of Openstep for Mach is "one of
>the worst ideas in the history of bad ideas"!!!!
>
>
>STEVE K.
>

        Oh sure. First it's ooh and ahhh, but later there's running and 
screaming.

____
cord
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From: "Robert Fisher" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: 29 May 1997 23:12:44 GMT
Organization: Renegade Software
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mat0001@jove.acs.unt.edu wrote in article
...
> Sounds like you should have signed up sooner. OpenStep as been around for
> a while and NeXTStep on Intel even longer.  Why didn't you try with NeXT
> sooner? just wondering....  

Couldn't have had anything to do with the high cost of entry, could it? =)

Did not Apple just "cut" the cost of OpenStep for NT to $1500? Isn't
OPENSTEP still $5000? (At least for development systems.)

Yeah, I wish I'd gotten into OPENSTEP long ago. But it seems I could've
never started programming OPENSTEP for as little as it cost me to get
started programming for the Mac OS.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I always got whenever I dropped
by NeXT's web site to look into OPENSTEP.
--
Robert Fisher
Renegade Software
rfisher@onr.com


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From: mwyner@apple.com (Michelle Wyner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: sample code for Rhapsody
Date: Thu, 29 May 1997 16:20:00 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer
Lines: 23
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Hi all,

For those who don't know me, my name is Michelle Wyner and I'm in Apple
DTS working on sample code for Rhapsody.

We want to write sample code that will be useful to Rhapsody developers,
so if any of you have a minute, please answer the questions below, and
send them to mwyner@apple.com with a subject of SAMPLE CODE IDEAS.

1) Which OpenStep/NeXTStep samples have been most useful to you in the
past (assuming you've programmed in OpenStep/NeXTStep before)?

2) What kind of samples would you like to see for the Rhapsody Developer
Release (and beyond?).

Also, please include your company name (this is just for our reference to
see who we're getting responses from).

Thanks!

-- Michelle Wyner
   Apple Developer Tech Support
   Rhapsody Sample Code Flunkie
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From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: OS 4.1 and TextEdit app - tab stop bug?
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Hi all,
The TextEdit application from OS4.1 seems to have a bug where the tab stops 
get out of alignment with the rest of the text, for certain sizes of a fixed 
pitch font (including the default Courier 12).

Anybody knows what causes this and how to fix it?

Thanks
----gabriel

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From: Rich Markle 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
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cord@concentric.net wrote:
> 
	I must say, I am a little non-plussed.  Apple (and by extension NeXT)
have their backs against the wall in the marketplace by any account and
yet they still aren't giving any of the developer tools away free. 
	OS/Mach for Enterprise is still $4999 for the cheap "starter pack",
"Web Objects Pro 3.0" is $3499, and now has...pay attention...Java
support!!!  Wow, doesn't Java support Java?  What do you need to add
another layer of software for?  And for $8500?!!!!
	What I am trying to say is if this software truly has the revolutionary
tools developers need, at these prices nobody but nerds who have too
much money to spend are going to find out.   If Apple doesn't drop the
prices (i.e., spread the Gospel by giving the dev tools away) then they
are already dead.
	I payed $489 for Visual Cafe Pro 1.0 for Java Development.  It hits
Sybase, Oracle, Ms SQL Server ODBC, and includes dbAnywhere as
middle-ware.  It runs on better than 80% of the PC's on the planet.  All
this for $8000 dollars less than the equivalent Apple Setup.

	APPLE/NEXT WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU THINKING??!!!!!

	In case you were wondering, I develop Java for a living and have an ND
Turbo Cube at home.  I love the tech, I just hate to see people run the
companies into the ground.

Just my $.02

-- 
Rich Markle >> rmarkle@earthlink.net (310)442-8086
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From: drelson@ic.net (David Relson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Good Smalltalk-like class browser avail?
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 03:02:54 GMT
Organization: ICNET... Your Link To The Internet... +1.313.998.0090
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I have heard interesting reports on OOBR, the Object Oriented Browser,
which is an emacs add-on.  Unfortunately I have not yet had time to
investigate it.  I think OOBR can be found on the InfoDock web page.
If not there, then use a search engine to find it.

Good luck ( and please let me know how it goes).

On Thu, 22 May 1997 17:35:53 -0500, Kevin Birch 
wrote:

>Does anyone know of a good class browser for 3.3 on HPPA?
>Something akin to a Smalltalk-type class browser, that you
>can edit code in.
>
>Kevin
>kbirch@pobox.com

David Relson                   drelson@ic.net
D & R Associates
Ann Arbor, MI
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From: jurgen@oic.de (Juergen Moellenhoff)
Subject: How can I display icons or images in a NSComboBox object?
Message-ID: 
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Hi,

the subject is the question :-). How can I display icons or images in a  
NSComboBox object? I noticed that NSComboBox is a subclass of NSTextField and  
the NSComboBoxCell a subclass of NSTextFieldCell and so I assume that  
NSComboBox can display only text and not text and images or only images. Is  
this correct?

Thank you in advance.

	Juergen Moellenhoff
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From: weesh@mindspring.com (Kenneth H. Wieschhoff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSTabView?
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 06:58:03 +0100
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Is there a tabbed view of some sort available?

->Ken
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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Intel Hardware Configuration Question
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 10:45:44 -0400
Organization: Disney Online
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> the configuration guide slightly obscure. It seems that (apart from
> performance questions) there is no problem with using an EIDE hard
> disk in
> the system, as long as there is a SCSI CD-ROM to install from. In some
>
> of
> the other material (such as some of the NextAnswers) that ATAPI
> CD-ROMs
> (which, if I understand correctly, attach to an EIDE controller but
> appear
> to be SCSI drives) are supported. My questions are:

> 1) Is it possible to get by with an ATAPI CD-ROM, and avoid the
> additional
> expense of a SCSI controller and CD-ROM? If so, are there any tricks
> to
> getting the system set up that way so that I can install OpenStep from
>
> the
> CD-ROMs?

I advise you to go all SCSI. In my experience, most pure SCSI
configurations (using a Adaptec or DPT adaptor) will work with little or
no fussing. Any flavor of IDE can be problematic. Sure, you can find IDE
configs that work (we have some here) but it's much more of a crapshoot
than using all SCSI (HD and CD-ROM). If you attempt to use IDE
components, the odds of pain and suffering rise dramatically.

> 2) I am planning on putting 64M of EDO RAM in the system. Is this
> adequate?

Plenty, I run with 32 MB RAM and get great performance.

> Frank Alviani



--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: mcgredo@crl.crl.com (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Intel Hardware Configuration Question
Date: 30 May 1997 09:04:39 -0700
Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics
Lines: 21
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References: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: crl.com

In article ,
Frank Alviani  wrote:
>My questions are:
>
>1) Is it possible to get by with an ATAPI CD-ROM, and avoid the additional
>expense of a SCSI controller and CD-ROM? If so, are there any tricks to
>getting the system set up that way so that I can install OpenStep from the
>CD-ROMs?

Yep, works fine. The install program has a "pick source device"
and "install to device" option. Just pick the IDE device for both 
of 'em.

>2) I am planning on putting 64M of EDO RAM in the system. Is this adequate?

Completely adequate. You can probably get by with 32 if that's a 
big deal in your budget.

-- 
Don McGregor     | I did it for the children.
mcgredo@crl.com  | 
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From: mcgredo@crl.crl.com (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 30 May 1997 09:09:49 -0700
Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics
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In article <338DB457.2579@abacus.com>, Jim Gagnon   wrote:
>Interesting.  The long-time NeXT guys tell me that NeXTStep has real
>issues as a server OS.  Apparently, if you put more than twelve-or-so
>users on it at a time, it really bogs down.  Also, there's a limit of
>200 processes in NeXTStep, which is actually pretty low for even a
>client-side OS.  To top it off, a NeXTStep system really needs the
>protection of a firewall -- security is definitely behind the levels
>defined by Solaris and AIX.

The NeXT OS was tuned as a client machine. It's not all that big of
a deal for Apple to tweak some kernel parameters in a way that would
hurt interactive performance but increase server performance; not
unlike the "differences" between NT Workstation and NT Server.

The Unix tools in the old release were a bit behind the times. I
suspect the 4.4 BSD upgrade will fix a lot of that.

-- 
Don McGregor     | I did it for the children.
mcgredo@crl.com  | 
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 11:06:01 -0700
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Someone said:

> >>   Compare this to the AppKit where ALL applications are
> AUTOMATICALLY not
> >> only localizable but can run in mutliple languages AT THE SAME TIME. 
> The
> >> result is that EVERY application under has more international support
> than
> >> ANY on the Macintosh.
> >> 
> >>   And don't say this isn't so Lawson, because as I've also pointed out
on
> >> many occasions, I DO THIS FOR A LIVING.  I can't _wait_ for Rhapsody!
> 

According to what I have read, heard and on Scott Anguish's WWDC page, NeXT
does NOT support bi-directionality.

That means pasting a date into a Hebew text-string will NOT work properly.

Additionally, vertical text is not currently supported in NeXT.

GX, on the other hand, DOES support bi-directional text, even in the
simplest of its text-shapes. The layout shape supports multiple levels of
text running in different directions, including vertical, and will
automatically support hit-testing of a string which contains nested
mono-directional, bi-directional and vertical text. I'm not sure what
happens if horizontal text has *embedded* vertical text...

The creation of an OOP wrapper for GX Layout/Glyph/Text shapes is likely
far, FAR easier than creating a version of DPS + AppKit that handles the
same level of textual support as the layout shape.

How do I know this? Because the layout shape already exists and the API
includes functions for breaking a single string into smaller chunks when it
gets too long, geometrically (on screen/paper). 

Now, for DPS + AppKit to incorporate GX Typography, they'll have to grab
all the capabilities of GX and put them into an OOP format in Obj-C and
make them fast when calling the DPS font renderer.

Now, for a GX OOP library to do what DPS + AppKit does for mono-languages,
one will have to create a paragraph-level library (already mostly done in
the TX text library that ships with the SDK) and instead of breaking and
moving to the next line, breaking and moving over to the other side of any
embedded graphics and eventually moving to the next available line as
needed.

BIg whoop. HOrribly complex change that would take FOREVER to implement...

[not]

Here's my bet: the GX programming community can take the GX text-handling
services and wrap them in class libraries that provides the functionality
of GX Typography AND the international text-handling functionality of DPS +
AppKit well before the equivalent ships in Rhapsody DRxx.

To be fair to both sides, things that NeXT provides that System 7.xx
doesn't (e.g. hierarchical localization of languages) don't count.
Similarly, GX transparency options, individual orientation of lines, 3D
perspective, and other GX-only graphical abilities that will be essentially
freebies on the GX side don't count either.

Obj-C's superior abilities to create new programming objects CAN count, as
long as they contribute specifically to the functionality in question, but
only if we can't fudge it on the MacOS side. In other words, IB's ability
to link menu-selection to class actions is a big win for
ease-of-develoment, but as long as we can fudge the same behavior using the
more primitive MacOS development tools, it doesn't make a difference to the
outcome of the contest. (I'd be more clear on this point if I better
understood IB and OBJ-C, obviously).

 
The goal is to implement AppKit + DPS functionality for word-processing
using GX classes BEFORE AppKit + DPS incorporate GX layout stuff and to
provide as much of GX's Typography in the GX classes as possible with the
expectation that Rhapsody's implementation will have everything also.


The GX developers need to have a description of the AppKit classes, methods
and so on that currently exist and those that were described in the WWDC on
the future of Rhapsody graphics.

Given that, I'm claiming that those class libraries can be implemented
FASTER using GX than using the already existing libraries under OpenStep +
GX Typography because it will take MUCH longer to implement GX Typography
in Rhapsody than it will to implement current and announced AppKit
text-handling classes using GX and something like CodeWarrior C++.

There's enough geeks who like GX that would be willing to work on this to
make it happen, I think 

The language and environment of choice should be COdeWarrior 9+, I think.
I'm using CW 11 right now, but I don't expect big enough differences
between CW9 and CW12 that would make the classes unusable/undevelopable
using any of those releases.

The classes would be available to the public for use in any CW project on
MacOS.

Takers?

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From: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Apple announces new pricing for OS - This is insane !!!!!!!!!
Date: 30 May 1997 18:32:40 GMT
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References: <5lc2ju$det@winx03.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de> <5lcoh1$3k1@shelob.afs.com> <3379B914.887@sapir.ling.yale.edu>
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In article <3379B914.887@sapir.ling.yale.edu>,
Stephen R. Anderson  wrote:

>I didn't notice any mention of "academic bundle" pricing in Apple's
>press release about OS 4.2. Does anyone know if this policy will
>continue for 4.2 (and any future pre-rhapsody versions)?

I asked them (by email) about the academic version, and the answer
is: the 4.2 academic bundle (user+developer) is at $299. Sounds like
a great deal compared to the regular $5000.

--
Franois Pottier
Francois.Pottier@inria.fr
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~fpottier/
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From: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep 4.2
Date: 30 May 1997 18:36:48 GMT
Organization: INRIA Rocquencourt, BP 105, 78153 Le Chesnay Cedex, France
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In article <5m32ha$48g$1@news.digifix.com>,
Scott Anguish  wrote:

>	Yes, but OpenStep 4.2 is supposed to actually ship shortly in 
>its commercial form.

I'm considering purchasing OpenStep/Mach 4.2. As a Mac developer, I'd
like to give OpenStep development a try. However, I have been told
that its Unix layer is not "standard" or "modern", meaning mostly that
it is not Posix-compliant and that I would have trouble compiling
off-the-shelf "Unix" sources. Is this true? Any comments?

Thanks!

--
Franois Pottier
Francois.Pottier@inria.fr
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~fpottier/
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 19:08:25 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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"Lawson English"  writes
>The goal is to implement AppKit + DPS functionality for word-processing
>using GX classes BEFORE AppKit + DPS incorporate GX layout stuff and to
>provide as much of GX's Typography in the GX classes as possible with the
>expectation that Rhapsody's implementation will have everything also.

>There's enough geeks who like GX that would be willing to work on this to
>make it happen, I think.

Too bad all the NeXT programmers who know enough about DPS have plenty 
of real, paying work to do, huh? Go challenge someone who gives a damn.
God, I feel like a total luser just for responding to you. Must remember 
not to do _that_ again. 
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "I wander'd off by myself, In the
Crystal Ball/Star Gazer    |  mystical moist night-air, and from
Anderson Financial Systems |  time to time, Look'd up in perfect
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  silence at the stars." Walt Whitman
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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: diff, rcs, cvs  -- URGENT
Date: 30 May 1997 19:35:08 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.44.75.199

Hey Folks!

I have trouble to compile the GNU diffutils on OS-Mach/Intel/v.4.2

Don't ask me why -- it's a long story, but I need very urgently all the diff,  
rcs and cvs utils (should be compiled with --prefix pointing to /usr/local)

Could any kind soul (NeXT/MIME)mail me the executables (best compiled on NS 3.x  
-- I know they ware working).

Thanks

-- georg --

P.S. The flaw is in a function called nxzonefreenolock () ... but I really have  
no time to play with it now ... the project is very near to the deadline :-(

It seams a mem bug introduced in System.framework in OS4.0 is killing a lot of  
stuff ... 

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street 
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSTabView?
Date: 30 May 1997 19:38:18 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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MiscTabView in MiscKit2.x

In article   
weesh@mindspring.com (Kenneth H. Wieschhoff) writes:
> Is there a tabbed view of some sort available?
> 
> ->Ken

--
-------
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\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 13:09:00 -0700
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Gregory H. Anderson  said:
Lawson English  said:

[proposal to create GX class library ala Rhapsody text-handling]


> >There's enough geeks who like GX that would be willing to work on this
to
> >make it happen, I think.
> 
> Too bad all the NeXT programmers who know enough about DPS have plenty 
> of real, paying work to do, huh? Go challenge someone who gives a damn.
> 

DPS doesn't implement what GX does. Nor does the AppKit. You're confusing
the issues. And despite the present problems with MacOS marketshare,
there's far, FAR more Mac developers with real paying work than NeXT
developers.


> God, I feel like a total luser just for responding to you. Must remember 
> not to do _that_ again. 




Hmmm...

Do you believe that the GNU tools provided for free by GNU developers are
developed by losers? Do you believe that developing a class library to
provide DTP-functionality to any CodeWarrior developer who's willing to use
GX graphics is automatically an unworthy cause?

Do you believe that my suggesting that we GX-using MacOS developers provide
such a set of classes to the rest of MacOS developers so that they in turn
can provide such services far, FAR cheaper than otherwise to their current
MacOS customers is worthy of such a cheap shot?


Lurkers can decide relative merit of posters based on relative value and
tone of content, I think.



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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 16:20:22 -0400
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> According to what I have read, heard and on Scott Anguish's WWDC page, NeXT
> does NOT support bi-directionality.

  Neither does our app, nor the majority of apps.  Only a very very small
minority do.

> That means pasting a date into a Hebew text-string will NOT work properly.

  So?

> Additionally, vertical text is not currently supported in NeXT.

  So?

> GX, on the other hand, DOES support bi-directional text

  And GX Text will be in Rhapsody.

> The creation of an OOP wrapper for GX Layout/Glyph/Text shapes is likely
> far, FAR easier than creating a version of DPS + AppKit that handles the
> same level of textual support as the layout shape.

  So?  The guys at Apple who wrote it are likely FAR better at it than you
are.  If they say they're adding it, they're adding it.

Maury
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From: "tech" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
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Rich Markle  wrote in article
<338E2A2A.1C63@earthlink.net>...
> Just my $.02
 
I quite agree. And the GNUStep people need your help getting it matured.

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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Intel Hardware Configuration Question
Date: 30 May 1997 20:15:28 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
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"Frank Alviani"  writes
> 1) Is it possible to get by with an ATAPI CD-ROM, and avoid the 
> additional expense of a SCSI controller and CD-ROM? If so, are there any 
> tricks to getting the system set up that way so that I can install 
> OpenStep from the CD-ROMs?
Yes, most any ATAPI CD-ROM will work. In order to install successfully,  
you need the CD-ROM to be on the primary IDE channel along with your hard  
drive.

> 2) I am planning on putting 64M of EDO RAM in the system. Is this 
> adequate?
64 Megs is plenty.
 
> I realize that this is not going to be a screaming performer, but I have
> severe budget limitations to work within.
If you're on a budget, spend your money on RAM before anything else. I  
really didn't notice all that much speed difference between my Pentium-166  
with 64M and a Pentium-Pro 200 with 32M.
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS 4.1 and TextEdit app - tab stop bug?
Date: 30 May 1997 20:21:19 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
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Gabriel Musatescu writes
> Hi all,
> The TextEdit application from OS4.1 seems to have a bug where the tab 
> stops get out of alignment with the rest of the text, for certain sizes 
> of a fixed pitch font (including the default Courier 12).
> 
> Anybody knows what causes this and how to fix it?

Could you maybe give a better description of the problem? I can't find  
anything wrong on OPENSTEP 4.2. What do you mean by "tab stops get out of  
alignment with the rest of the text"?

--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 20:28:21 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Someone said:
>
>> >>   Compare this to the AppKit where ALL applications are
>> AUTOMATICALLY not
>> >> only localizable but can run in mutliple languages AT THE SAME 
TIME. 
>> The
>> >> result is that EVERY application under has more international 
support
>> than
>> >> ANY on the Macintosh.
>> >> 
>> >>   And don't say this isn't so Lawson, because as I've also 
pointed out
>on
>> >> many occasions, I DO THIS FOR A LIVING.  I can't _wait_ for 
Rhapsody!
>> 
>
>According to what I have read, heard and on Scott Anguish's WWDC
>page, NeXT does NOT support bi-directionality.
>

	NeXT does not support it _CURRENTLY_.  
	
	Of course since Lawson decided to _selectively_ read (as 
usual) I'll be glad to provide the rest of the paragraph for him...

	Input managers for alternate languages were discussed. Apple
	currently has European and Japanese input managers, and
	apparently Arabic is high on the list to be added. Although
	the version of NSText on the DR release will not support
	it, Ali said that they are aware of the need for 
	bi-directional and vertical layout, and that the current
	NSText object was designed with that type of functionality
	in mind, so adding them should not be exceedingly difficult.

	So that means that they are aware of the problem, and I'd 
expect it to be resolved in the near future.  

	Now, Ali is a long-time NeXT person, who knows the Text stuff 
inside out, and what is required.  He's intimately familiar with the 
AppKit and what is involved to do the integration.

	Lawson is an amateur who tends to shoot his mouth of about GX 
to the point of having no credibility.  He has no clue what the Text 
object provides, or what Apple/NeXT intends to do with it.  This is 
clearly evident in his selective memory demonstrated above.




>Now, for DPS + AppKit to incorporate GX Typography, they'll have
>to grab all the capabilities of GX and put them into an OOP format
>in Obj-C and make them fast when calling the DPS font renderer.
>

	Hardly...  

	And all they really need to do is take the algorithms and use 
them. That is where the value lies in the GX Typography at this point.



	Lawson, GX is dead.  Get over it.




-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 30 May 1997 20:33:39 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 23
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NNTP-Posting-Host: bananajr.next.com

Jim Gagnon  writes
> Interesting.  The long-time NeXT guys tell me that NeXTStep has real
> issues as a server OS.  Apparently, if you put more than twelve-or-so
> users on it at a time, it really bogs down.  Also, there's a limit of
> 200 processes in NeXTStep, which is actually pretty low for even a
> client-side OS.  To top it off, a NeXTStep system really needs the
> protection of a firewall -- security is definitely behind the levels
> defined by Solaris and AIX.
Rhapsody is not NEXTSTEP. NEXTSTEP's UNIX underpinnings were a bit aged  
and creaky. With Rhapsody, we've got a new UNIX layer (BSD 4.4), which  
will solve some of our problems with security, as well as improving  
performance.
 
>   Apple may have cancelled updates to AIX (and who can blame them), but
> they've got some work before Rhapsody is up to snuff as a standalone
> Server.
Fortunately, we have a whole team of people dedicated to producing the  
Rhapsody Server version. You can bet they'll be working their butts off  
turning Rhapsody into a world-class server OS.
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 20:34:02 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Gregory H. Anderson  said:
>Lawson English  said:
>
>[proposal to create GX class library ala Rhapsody text-handling]
>
>
>> >There's enough geeks who like GX that would be willing to work on 
this
>to
>> >make it happen, I think.
>> 
>> Too bad all the NeXT programmers who know enough about DPS have 
plenty 
>> of real, paying work to do, huh? Go challenge someone who gives a 
damn.
>> 
>
>DPS doesn't implement what GX does. Nor does the AppKit. You're
>confusing the issues. And despite the present problems with MacOS
>marketshare, there's far, FAR more Mac developers with real paying
>work than NeXT developers.
>

	Shift that goal-post again there Lawson..

	His point was that the NeXT programmers have better things to 
do and much, much work to tend to.  We don't have time to take up 
challenges from ranting losers such as yourself.

	Then again, Mac developers who are going to deploy on Rhapsody 
are likely busy learning the system and designing killer apps instead 
of obsessing on writing APIs around a dead imaging system.

>
>> God, I feel like a total luser just for responding to you. Must
>> remember  not to do _that_ again.
>
>
>
>
>Hmmm...
>
>Do you believe that the GNU tools provided for free by GNU developers
>are developed by losers?

	Certainly not.  However Lawson's GX Jihad is hardly GNU.  GNU 
has some credibility, and even Stallman isn't as wacko as you.

>Do you believe that developing a class
>library to provide DTP-functionality to any CodeWarrior developer
>who's willing to use GX graphics is automatically an unworthy
>cause?
>

	Yes.  GX is Dead.  

>Do you believe that my suggesting that we GX-using MacOS developers
>provide such a set of classes to the rest of MacOS developers so
>that they in turn can provide such services far, FAR cheaper than
>otherwise to their current MacOS customers is worthy of such a
>cheap shot?
>
	Its unlikely that many additional developers are going to be 
creating frameworks for a rarely installed graphics sub-system that is 
DEAD.

>
>Lurkers can decide relative merit of posters based on relative
>value and tone of content, I think.
>

-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: jrkF95@hamp.hampshire.edu (nobody   nogroup)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: running dynamically loaded object files
Date: 30 May 97 15:54:04 GMT
Organization: Hampshire College, Amherst MA
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Can anybody point me to some example code to run dynamically loaded 
object files?

Specifically I've got a program which generates assembly code and uses
as to assemble object files.  How can my program load these object
files and run functions?

Any help appreciated.  Thanks!

--
   "What Lassie?  A kernel panic?!@!  Go get the sysadmin... go on girl!!"
				
jklein@artificial.com	     		              The Artificial Society
jklein@hampshire.edu				      http://www.artificial.com
		
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSTabView?
Date: 30 May 1997 20:42:45 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/29/97, Kenneth H. Wieschhoff wrote:
>Is there a tabbed view of some sort available?
>
>->Ken
>

	There is a version in the MiscKit (www.misckit.com)

	There is also a version that is promised in the Rhapsody DR 
release...

	So Yes, and an official one is around the corner..


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: terry@arcane.com (Terry Wilcox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 20:57:19 GMT
Organization: Arcane Systems Ltd.
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On 30 May 1997 13:09:00 -0700, Lawson English  wrote:
>Gregory H. Anderson  said:

>> God, I feel like a total luser just for responding to you. Must remember 
>> not to do _that_ again. 

>Lurkers can decide relative merit of posters based on relative value and
>tone of content, I think.

As way of explanation for my upcoming lack of tact, duty dragged me off a
sunny patio where I was enjoying cold beer and attractive women. I find
myself in a windowless office, on a sunny Friday, after a couple of pints.
That may not mean much to some people, but we had snow on the ground until
Tuesday. It's not an excuse, but my tolerance is way down.

Lawson, if we did a study on intentional misrepresentation of the facts in
the the comp.sys.mac and comp.sys.next hierarchies, your name would be in
the title.

You're the only person I've ever seen to post an untruth one day, admit it
wasn't true the next, then continue on expecting people to believe your
every word. It's inconceivable (it means what I think it means) to me that
you believe you have any credibility left.

You've probably done more to tarnish QuickDraw GX than any number of
printing problems ever have. Your facts are based on rumor and your truths
stem from ignorance.

Rhapsody can't run on Nubus Macs because DPS is too slow, right? Wrong,
but that didn't stop you from posting it as the truth and using it to
promote GX.

It no longer matters if GX is better than DPS. People will take an anti-GX
stance just because you promote it. You're GX's worst enemy.

GX won't be part of Rhapsody, but it is still part of the MacOS. So go
right ahead and torment those poor comp.sys.mac souls with your message.
But please get out of comp.sys.next.

We've done nothing to deserve you.

Terry Wilcox
 
-- 
Terry Wilcox
Arcane Systems Ltd.
terry@arcane.com
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep 4.2
Date: 30 May 1997 20:44:17 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <5mne71$lbr$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <5m0nlh$naj@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>  <5m32ha$48g$1@news.digifix.com> <5mn6o0$q5e@news-rocq.inria.fr>
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On 05/30/97, Francois Pottier wrote:
>In article <5m32ha$48g$1@news.digifix.com>,
>Scott Anguish  wrote:
>
>>	Yes, but OpenStep 4.2 is supposed to actually ship shortly in 
>>its commercial form.
>
>I'm considering purchasing OpenStep/Mach 4.2. As a Mac developer, I'd
>like to give OpenStep development a try. However, I have been told
>that its Unix layer is not "standard" or "modern", meaning mostly 
that
>it is not Posix-compliant and that I would have trouble compiling
>off-the-shelf "Unix" sources. Is this true? Any comments?
>
	
	I'm not sure who told you that...

	I've got many off-the-shelf UNIX sources compiled and running 
on my machine...

	stuff like INN, Sendmail, PGP, PERL, NCFTP, etc...

	

	
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 21:22:29 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 27
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Lawson English  wrote:
>>Gregory H. Anderson  said:
> 
>> God, I feel like a total luser just for responding to you. Must 
>> remember not to do _that_ again. 
> 
>Lurkers can decide relative merit of posters based on relative value and
>tone of content, I think.

You really don't know who you're talking to, do you? I'm sorry. It really 
is _my_ fault for not introducing myself properly.  Greg 
Anderson, Rush Chairmain. Damn glad to meet ya.

Oh, you were looking for relative value. AFS is getting ready to beta test
PasteUp and WriteUp, the only fully native DTP and WP applications likely 
to ship on Rhapsody for quite some time. I personally wrote most of these 
apps, and I did all the OPENSTEP porting work this spring while you were 
busy wasting everyone else's time in c.s.n|m.advocacy. I can pretty much 
guarantee that demo versions will ship on the DR1 CDROM in July, and final 
versions will be demoed to the public at MacWorld/Boston in August.

What did you say _you_ do again?
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 14:26:00 -0700
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> > The creation of an OOP wrapper for GX Layout/Glyph/Text shapes is
likely
> > far, FAR easier than creating a version of DPS + AppKit that handles
the
> > same level of textual support as the layout shape.
> 
>   So?  The guys at Apple who wrote it are likely FAR better at it than
you
> are.  If they say they're adding it, they're adding it.



What does "they're adding it" mean?

It doesn't (at least not currently) mean adding GX-style plug-in font
renderers to support 3rd party font formats such as FontWorks' compressed
Japanese fonts.

Does it support GX typefaces? Unknown.


DOes it support any of the typographical features that are virtually
impossible to achieve in realtime using DPS? Unknown.

What has been said on GX-TALK is that the GX LineLayout stuff is being
worked on and that they intend to make Rhapsody's text handling as powerful
as what is found in the layout shape API. 

That's the most complicated and powerful of the 3 text shapes, but there's
a lot of useful functionality found in the Glyph shape and a lot of generic
GX functionality in GX graphics that can apply to GX Typography that is
impossible to do with DPS text in realtime (e.g. applying 3D perspective to
individual glyphs in a typeface or GX's transparency modes and so on).


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO GX-TALK?
---------------------------------

To subscribe to GX-TALK proceed as follows:

     Send E-mail to:

           

     with anything in the subject line and the following command as the
     first (and only) line of the message body:

          SUBSCRIBE
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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From: markfr@markfr .cse.tek.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: MallocDebug with C++ Complex?
Date: 30 May 1997 21:28:39 GMT
Organization: Tektronix, Inc., Beaverton, OR USA
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Has anyone had any problems using MallocDebug
with GNU's Complex class?  It seems like when
ever I new a Complex array, MallocDebug shows
it as a leak.  I am pretty sure there isn't a
real leak, so is MallocDebug getting fooled?

--
Mark Frank
markfr@markfr.cse.tek.com
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Prelude WebObjects serial number?
Date: 30 May 97 17:53:10 -0400
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  I just finished installing the Prelude WebObjects stuff (on Mach) and
it's now asking me for a serial number. It's making reference to a
registration card. I've looked through the 'Getting Started on WebObjects'
book and the 'Installation Guide' booklet, but I can't find a reference to
the serial number. I also looked at the CD. 
  This seems to be everything I received at WWDC that has anything to do
with WebObjects. Has anyone else gotten around this?


rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 14:53:01 -0700
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Scott Anguish  said:

> >Now, for DPS + AppKit to incorporate GX Typography, they'll have
> >to grab all the capabilities of GX and put them into an OOP format
> >in Obj-C and make them fast when calling the DPS font renderer.
> >
> 
> 	Hardly...  
> 
> 	And all they really need to do is take the algorithms and use 
> them. That is where the value lies in the GX Typography at this point.
> 



Oh really?

 After many, MANY attempts at trying to remind you and your friends what
your own manuals implicitly say about the joys of retained mode graphics,
you still fail to grasp an important point explicitly mentioned in the NeXT
DPS manual: making lots of calls via the DPS communications channel is
inefficient.

Specifically, as benchmarked in the NeXT DPS manual, changing color state
info constantly can result in drawing inefficiency. The manual suggests
that one draw objects of like color consecutively, rather than at random to
avoid this potential slowdown.

GX, on the other hand, caches the color info internally within each object
(or group of objects) so that there is no slowdown inherent in drawing
objects of different colors in any order.

Likewise, GX Layout shapes cache info about which fonts, languages,
typefaces, styles, etc., etc., etc., etc., are used in a given shape. This
means that no global state info need be changed to render a GXLayout shape.


In other words, algorithms that are quite fast using a retained mode
graphics engine like as GX may well be totally unsuitable, speed-wise, if
plopped directly into the AppKit.

To suggest otherwise, is well, here's your words about moi:

"Lawson is an amateur who tends to shoot his mouth of about GX 
to the point of having no credibility.  He has no clue what the Text 
object provides, or what Apple/NeXT intends to do with it.  This is 
clearly evident in his selective memory demonstrated above."



And why does my suggestion [that MacOS developers familiar with GX should
get together to implement (faster, I'm confident) what Rhapsody graphics
will someday have, and make it available NOW for MacOS developers] threaten
you so much?

If my proposed contest/challenge is so immature and childish and
amateurish, I'd expect that no MacOS/GX developer would bother to
participate (save the "immature and childish and amateurish" ones), so your
comments and personal attacks are rather strange -unless you DO feel
threatened in some way by such a proposal...

BTW, "will soon" and "not currently" doesn't mean "already does."

The bi-directional support of Hebrew in the AppKit is non-existent, from
what you say. That means that RIGHT NOW, GX is a better fit for Israel than
NeXT, even though NeXT's Internationalization is far superior to MacOS's
and GX's from what NeXT developers are constantly claiming.

Does anyone but me fail to note the logic-error in the above assertion
about NeXT's superior Internationalization support?

Ditto with vertical text?

Contextual text?

Etc., etc., etc., etc.?


"DPS is a superior solution to GX."

Blah.

Ranks with "Java is superior technology to OpenDoc."

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     Send E-mail to:

           

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Prelude WebObjects serial number?
Date: 30 May 1997 22:08:08 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/30/97, "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
>
>  I just finished installing the Prelude WebObjects stuff (on Mach) 
and
>it's now asking me for a serial number. It's making reference to a
>registration card. I've looked through the 'Getting Started on 
WebObjects'
>book and the 'Installation Guide' booklet, but I can't find a 
reference to
>the serial number. I also looked at the CD. 
>  This seems to be everything I received at WWDC that has anything to 
do
>with WebObjects. Has anyone else gotten around this?
>

	I believe its on the back of the envelope that the CD came 
in..

	I'd suggest immediately transferring it to the CD using a 
Sharpie magic marker..


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 22:07:19 GMT
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish  said:
>
>> >Now, for DPS + AppKit to incorporate GX Typography, they'll have
>> >to grab all the capabilities of GX and put them into an OOP format
>> >in Obj-C and make them fast when calling the DPS font renderer.
>> >
>> 
>> 	Hardly...  
>> 
>> 	And all they really need to do is take the algorithms and use 
>> them. That is where the value lies in the GX Typography at this 
point.
>> 
>
>
>
>Oh really?
>
> After many, MANY attempts at trying to remind you and your friends
>what your own manuals implicitly say about the joys of retained mode
>graphics, you still fail to grasp an important point explicitly
>mentioned in the NeXT DPS manual: making lots of calls via the DPS
>communications channel is inefficient.
>
>Specifically, as benchmarked in the NeXT DPS manual, changing color
>state info constantly can result in drawing inefficiency. The
>manual suggests that one draw objects of like color consecutively,
>rather than at random to avoid this potential slowdown.
>

>In other words, algorithms that are quite fast using a retained mode
>graphics engine like as GX may well be totally unsuitable, 
speed-wise, if plopped directly into the AppKit.

	Common sense would dictate that much of this layout could be 
done at the AppKit side, without traversing the DPS layer.

	Drawing parallels to color modes aren't very useful in this 
case.

>
>To suggest otherwise, is well, here's your words about moi:
>
>"Lawson is an amateur who tends to shoot his mouth of about GX 
>to the point of having no credibility.  He has no clue what the Text 
>object provides, or what Apple/NeXT intends to do with it.  This is 
>clearly evident in his selective memory demonstrated above."
>

	Yep, those are my words.  And I stand by them..


>And why does my suggestion [that MacOS developers familiar with
>GX should get together to implement (faster, I'm confident) what
>Rhapsody graphics will someday have, and make it available NOW for
>MacOS developers] threaten you so much?
>

	It doesn't at all.  However you should realize that because 
you get no takers on the NEXT side doesn't mean a damn thing.


>If my proposed contest/challenge is so immature and childish and
>amateurish, I'd expect that no MacOS/GX developer would bother to
>participate (save the "immature and childish and amateurish" ones),
>so your comments and personal attacks are rather strange -unless
>you DO feel threatened in some way by such a proposal...

	I'm attempting to point out to you that you won't be likely to 
bait any NEXT developers into this little contest, since you will then 
try and worm around to claim that this means it can't be done on the 
NeXT side...

>
>BTW, "will soon" and "not currently" doesn't mean "already does."
>

	Yeah, well Rhapsody isn't shipping yet.  And GX isn't part of 
Rhapsody, so its rather moot.

>The bi-directional support of Hebrew in the AppKit is non-existent,
>from what you say. That means that RIGHT NOW, GX is a better fit
>for Israel than NeXT,

	Fine.. sell GX RIGHT NOW.  But that has absolutely no bearing 
on what is going to happen with Rhapsody ships and GX isn't in there..

> even though NeXT's Internationalization is
>far superior to MacOS's and GX's from what NeXT developers are
>constantly claiming.

	Ugh....  
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
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Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: Scott Anguish  said:

: > 
: > 	Yes.  GX is Dead.  
: > 

: I've forwarded this to the GX-talk mailing list. Those folks who make a
: living developing and shipping GX-based products will be unhappy to hear
: that they can't do this anymore.

Great. The five of you can get together and commiserate over a beer.

: > >Do you believe that my suggesting that we GX-using MacOS developers
: > >provide such a set of classes to the rest of MacOS developers so
: > >that they in turn can provide such services far, FAR cheaper than
: > >otherwise to their current MacOS customers is worthy of such a
: > >cheap shot?
: > >
: > 	Its unlikely that many additional developers are going to be 
: > creating frameworks for a rarely installed graphics sub-system that is 
: > DEAD.
: > 

: Eh. Time will tell. Remember: HyperCard is used by millions of folks, and
: 100,000 people bought Danny Goodman's first _HyperCard Handbook_...

I find it awfully hard to believe that Hypercard is used by 'million'
of folks. Maybe in its heyday, but now?

--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 15:16:02 -0700
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Scott Anguish  said:

> On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
> >Gregory H. Anderson  said:
> >Lawson English  said:
> >
> >[proposal to create GX class library ala Rhapsody text-handling]
> >
> >
> >> >There's enough geeks who like GX that would be willing to work on 
> this
> >to
> >> >make it happen, I think.
> >> 
> >> Too bad all the NeXT programmers who know enough about DPS have 
> plenty 
> >> of real, paying work to do, huh? Go challenge someone who gives a 
> damn.
> >> 
> >
> >DPS doesn't implement what GX does. Nor does the AppKit. You're
> >confusing the issues. And despite the present problems with MacOS
> >marketshare, there's far, FAR more Mac developers with real paying
> >work than NeXT developers.
> >
> 
> 	Shift that goal-post again there Lawson..
> 
> 	His point was that the NeXT programmers have better things to 
> do and much, much work to tend to.  We don't have time to take up 
> challenges from ranting losers such as yourself.
> 

The only "challenge" is for WE GX developers to implement the functionality
of the current and proposed OpenStep/Rhapsody text-handling classes using
GX as the foundation rather than DPS.

You NeXT/OpenStep developers need only sit back and laugh at our pitiable
efforts...

> 	Then again, Mac developers who are going to deploy on Rhapsody 
> are likely busy learning the system and designing killer apps instead 
> of obsessing on writing APIs around a dead imaging system.
> 
> >
> >> God, I feel like a total luser just for responding to you. Must
> >> remember  not to do _that_ again.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Hmmm...
> >
> >Do you believe that the GNU tools provided for free by GNU developers
> >are developed by losers?
> 
> 	Certainly not.  However Lawson's GX Jihad is hardly GNU.  GNU 
> has some credibility, and even Stallman isn't as wacko as you.
> 

Is it wacko to believe that a retained mode interface is superior to an
immediate-mode graphics engine?

Is it wacko to believe that Apple has made a BIG mistake in embracing DPS
over GX/Taligent?

Is it wacko to believe that calling for like-minded individuals to work on
providing a GX-based text-handling class library useable for 20,000,000
end-users is a worthwhile thing to do?

> >Do you believe that developing a class
> >library to provide DTP-functionality to any CodeWarrior developer
> >who's willing to use GX graphics is automatically an unworthy
> >cause?
> >
> 
> 	Yes.  GX is Dead.  
> 

I've forwarded this to the GX-talk mailing list. Those folks who make a
living developing and shipping GX-based products will be unhappy to hear
that they can't do this anymore.

> >Do you believe that my suggesting that we GX-using MacOS developers
> >provide such a set of classes to the rest of MacOS developers so
> >that they in turn can provide such services far, FAR cheaper than
> >otherwise to their current MacOS customers is worthy of such a
> >cheap shot?
> >
> 	Its unlikely that many additional developers are going to be 
> creating frameworks for a rarely installed graphics sub-system that is 
> DEAD.
> 

Eh. Time will tell. Remember: HyperCard is used by millions of folks, and
100,000 people bought Danny Goodman's first _HyperCard Handbook_...

> >
> >Lurkers can decide relative merit of posters based on relative
> >value and tone of content, I think.
> >
> 
> -- 
> Scott Anguish  
> NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 
> 
> 



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 22:50:56 GMT
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish  said:


>> >Hmmm...
>> >
>> >Do you believe that the GNU tools provided for free by GNU 
developers
>> >are developed by losers?
>> 
>> 	Certainly not.  However Lawson's GX Jihad is hardly GNU.  GNU 
>> has some credibility, and even Stallman isn't as wacko as you.
>> 
>
>Is it wacko to believe that a retained mode interface is superior
>to an immediate-mode graphics engine?
>
>Is it wacko to believe that Apple has made a BIG mistake in
>embracing DPS over GX/Taligent?
>

	Yes.

	- GX would have cost them time to market... this would kill 
Apple

	- GX wouldn't have raised _ANY_ interest in the DTP field.  
This would Kill Apple.

	- Taligent would have caused most MEDIA, and many developers 
to say "WHAT???!?!?"  Taligent is by and large a joke at this point.

	This would have killed Apple..

	You go on and on and on about DPS being useless, inferior, 
incapable, etc... but its being demonstrated DAILY by Apple and other 
developers that it is capable.

>Is it wacko to believe that calling for like-minded individuals
>to work on providing a GX-based text-handling class library useable
>for 20,000,000 end-users is a worthwhile thing to do?
>
	
	No.  But its wacko for you to act the way that you do about 
the situation.

	And its a flat out LIE on your part that there are 20,000,000 
GX end-users out there.
	

>> >Do you believe that developing a class
>> >library to provide DTP-functionality to any CodeWarrior developer
>> >who's willing to use GX graphics is automatically an unworthy
>> >cause?
>> >
>> 
>> 	Yes.  GX is Dead.  
>> 
>
>I've forwarded this to the GX-talk mailing list. Those folks who
>make a living developing and shipping GX-based products will be
>unhappy to hear that they can't do this anymore.

	Certainly nice of you to do that without my permission...  I 
believe that most of those people have probably already come to terms 
with the status of GX.  I doubt that ANY of them are deluding 
themselves as much as you seem to be about the future of GX outside 
the blue box.

	As far as Rhapsody is concerned, GX is dead.  Its a dead issue 
Lawson.  Dead....  
	
	You need to come to terms with that.  If you want to continue 
to promote GX, use GX, develop for GX or whatever, fine.  But its not 
appropriate for a NEXT forum, or for a Rhapsody forum.  The issue is 
dead as far as Rhapsody goes... 

	Frankly I am (and I'm sure most here are) sick of your GX 
rants.  The only reason you still get responses is that you continue 
to mis-represent, and in some cases flat out LIE about GX vs DPS, and 
you may influence people here who simply do not know any better that 
what you say is true.

	

>
>> >Do you believe that my suggesting that we GX-using MacOS 
developers
>> >provide such a set of classes to the rest of MacOS developers so
>> >that they in turn can provide such services far, FAR cheaper than
>> >otherwise to their current MacOS customers is worthy of such a
>> >cheap shot?
>> >
>> 	Its unlikely that many additional developers are going to be 
>> creating frameworks for a rarely installed graphics sub-system that 
is 
>> DEAD.
>> 
>
>Eh. Time will tell. Remember: HyperCard is used by millions of folks, 
and
>100,000 people bought Danny Goodman's first _HyperCard Handbook_...
>

	What the HELL does Hypercard have to do with this?

	Hypercard was, at that time, innovative, neat, new, and 
powerful.  Further, from DAY ONE it was EMBRACED BY MANY IF NOT ALL.

	Comparing a failed-to-be-accepted technology like GX to 
Hypercard is stupid.



---
DPS is beautiful in color....
- lead engineer for a MacOS CADD developer who saw DPS in color for 
the first time this week.  
---


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 23:10:30 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <5mnj2n$n2b$1@news.digifix.com> sanguish@digifix.com (Scott  
Anguish) writes:
> On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
> >To suggest otherwise, is well, here's your words about moi:
> >
> >"Lawson is an amateur who tends to shoot his mouth of about GX 
> >to the point of having no credibility.  He has no clue what the Text 
> >object provides, or what Apple/NeXT intends to do with it.  This is 
> >clearly evident in his selective memory demonstrated above."
>
> 	Yep, those are my words.  And I stand by them..

Actually, it's worse.  He is also clueless about the very
technology he's advocating.  Pretty funny, that, actually.

Marcel

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From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: Re: OS 4.1 and TextEdit app - tab stop bug?
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Cc: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Fri, 30 May 1997 22:38:26 GMT
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Mark Bessey wrote:
> Gabriel Musatescu writes
> > Hi all,
> > The TextEdit application from OS4.1 seems to have a bug where the tab 
> > stops get out of alignment with the rest of the text, for certain sizes 
> > of a fixed pitch font (including the default Courier 12).
> > 
> > Anybody knows what causes this and how to fix it?
> 
> Could you maybe give a better description of the problem? I can't find  
> anything wrong on OPENSTEP 4.2. What do you mean by "tab stops get out of  
> alignment with the rest of the text"?
> 
> 

I'm glad someone from Apple responded. Thanks.

For a fixed pitch font all the characters look aligned in columns. But 
pressing  will move the "insertion point" somewhere in between columns, 
so the columns will become "crooked". The tab width is not calculated 
properly. This was noticed by the author too (Ali Ozer) who notes "Added 
plain text tabs (but they're semi broken)". For some reason he didn't fix it. 
Probably the trouble lies at a lower level.

Some more details:
According to documentation the default paragraph style comes with 12 tab 
stops positioned at 28.0 points from each other, which for the default font 
(Courier 12) will make the insertion point jump every 4 columns. That looks 
OK. TextEdit uses 8-column tabs.  That means tab stops should be 56.0 points 
apart for Courier 12, right?. They are 57.6 apart.

Take a look at -tabs in Document.m. To calculate tab widths, the NSFont's 
-maximumAdvancement method is used. The following table is an example of the 
values it returns:

Font: Courier
Size:			11	12	14	16	18
Returned Value:	6.6	7.2	8.4	9.6	10.8
Tabs work:		yes	no	no	yes	 no

The returned values are the font size times the "unscaled" width of any glyph 
(0.6 as returned by NSFont's -widths.)  -advancementForGlyph: returns the 
same values. -boundingRectForGlyph: returns smaller values for the rect width 
than the advancement.

I have no solution so far than to hard code the above values. Otherwise any 
application that I try to implement based on the OpenStep 4.1 text system 
will not be able to offer text tab "capabilities" because of this problem. 
Solutions?

Thanks
---gabriel


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From: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: services call from the commandline?
Date: 30 May 1997 22:31:10 GMT
Organization: Frankfurt University Computing Center
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Hi,

is there a way to call an application's services in a shell script?

Thanks for any hints!

                Bye
                        Uli
--
_____________________________________________________________________

Uli Zappe               E-Mail: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de
                                (NeXTMail,Mime,ASCII) PGP on request
Lorscher Strasse 5      WWW:    -
D-60489 Frankfurt       Fon:    +49 (69) 9784 0007
Germany                 Fax:    +49 (69) 9784 0042

staff member of NEXTTOYOU - the German NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP magazine 
_____________________________________________________________________
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 18:21:00 -0700
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Terry Wilcox  said:

> Rhapsody can't run on Nubus Macs because DPS is too slow, right? Wrong,
> but that didn't stop you from posting it as the truth and using it to
> promote GX.
> 

As I said in an article with a *seperate title*, I've been told by Those
Who Should Know, that DPS being too slow on NuBus Macs is NOT an issue, as
far as why Apple may or may not be supporting NuBus PowerMacs.

My previous source was e-mail from  an engineer with a next e-mail address,
so I assumed that they knew what they were talking about. My NEW source is
as reliable as any private e-mail can ever be, I believe.

> It no longer matters if GX is better than DPS. People will take an
anti-GX
> stance just because you promote it. You're GX's worst enemy.



Only people that allow personality to creep into professional evaluation of
products and technologies. Truely professional people will ignore my
statements and evaluate the technology on its OWN merits, not mine.

>GX won't be part of Rhapsody, but it is still part of the MacOS. So go
>right ahead and torment those poor comp.sys.mac souls with your message.
>But please get out of comp.sys.next.

>We've done nothing to deserve you.

Sorry about that. You have ALREADY set the appropriate followups, I'm
sure...

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
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> 
> >Is it wacko to believe that calling for like-minded individuals
> >to work on providing a GX-based text-handling class library useable
> >for 20,000,000 end-users is a worthwhile thing to do?
> >
> 	
> 	No.  But its wacko for you to act the way that you do about 
> the situation.
> 
> 	And its a flat out LIE on your part that there are 20,000,000 
> GX end-users out there.

Ummm... There aren't 20,000,000 System 7.x users, so you're correct, this
was an out and out lie.

OTOH, most System 7.x users have never had any reason to install GX.
There's been no widely disseminated/advertised freeware/shareware that used
GX for them to experiment with...

Until now (real soon now, that is).

[...] 

>What the HELL does Hypercard have to do with this?

>Hypercard was, at that time, innovative, neat, new, and 
>powerful.  Further, from DAY ONE it was EMBRACED BY MANY IF NOT ALL.

>Comparing a failed-to-be-accepted technology like GX to 
>Hypercard is stupid.

Unless, of course, I actually suceed in making most of the GX API
accessable and useable to HyperCard developers...

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 06:01:52 GMT
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish  said:
>Lawson English  said:


>> 
>> 	Didn't think so..
>> 
>> 
>
>Talk about silly questions. Rhapsody doesn't give MacOS users
>ANYTHING except (maybe) an upgrade path sometime in the NeXT 18-24
>months to obtain these oh-so-important buzzwords that were the
>reason why they bought a Mac in the first place.

	GX isn't playing any major role in most Mac users lives for 
the next 18-24 months.

>NeXT's purchase may or may not save the company, but for the
>immediate-term, MacOS users lost:
>

	Hardly.  Their software still runs.  There have been quite a 
number of changes and enhancements added and will be added for MacOS 
8.  Developers are still actively writing for it.

> OpenDoc, the world's most powerful compound document architecture
>(designed explicitly to replace ActiveX/OLE on MacOS, where it is
>known to crash computers that do NOT have installed if they are
>on the same network as those that do have it installed);
>

	OpenDoc wasn't widely adopted by developers.  IBM and everyone 
else involved abandoned in the joint effort.

	Apple alone couldn't support a cross-platform thing like 
OpenDoc and hope that it will be accepted.


>GX Printing, the world's most powerful printing architecture;
>

	That screwed up non-GX software's abilty to print.

>OpenTransport (well sorta, enough high-end potential Rhapsody
>customers have been screaming about this one for Amelio to make
>placating noises);
>

	If by OpenTransport you mean a STREAMS access to TCP/IP...

>Janus, the ability to for two or more OpenDoc users to collaborate
>over a network while using virtually ANY OD parts;
>
>ANd so on.
>
>


>
>What has Rhapsody graphics done for you or anyone else in the world?
>

	Given developers faith that Apple can and will ship a new OS 
before the end of the Century?





-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: "Frank Alviani" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Intel Hardware Configuration Question
Date: 30 May 97 19:45:02 -0500
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Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. I am almost through
selecting the components and hope to start assembling the system shortly.

Onwards to Rhapsody!

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
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Gregory H. Anderson  said:

> Oh, you were looking for relative value. AFS is getting ready to beta
test
> PasteUp and WriteUp, the only fully native DTP and WP applications likely

> to ship on Rhapsody for quite some time. I personally wrote most of these

> apps, and I did all the OPENSTEP porting work this spring while you were 
> busy wasting everyone else's time in c.s.n|m.advocacy. I can pretty much 
> guarantee that demo versions will ship on the DR1 CDROM in July, and
final 
> versions will be demoed to the public at MacWorld/Boston in August.
> 

And how well does it handle bi-directional text? Arabic? Vertical Chinese?
Vertical English (for that matter)?

And your product is expected to do well in Apple's fastest growing market
(China) and 2nd largest market (Japan)?

Has Apple pledged to ship it with every Rhapsody machine sold in China, as
they do with Ready, Set, Go, GX?


And my _bona fides_ include getting you to post yet again after you said
that you wouldn't bother because it made you such a luser...

oops.


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
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Jonathan Hendry  said:
Lawson English  said:

> : Eh. Time will tell. Remember: HyperCard is used by millions of folks,
and
> : 100,000 people bought Danny Goodman's first _HyperCard Handbook_...
> 
> I find it awfully hard to believe that Hypercard is used by 'million'
> of folks. Maybe in its heyday, but now?



Well, NEXT year (pun noted, not intended), HyperCard will be part of
QuickTime. This year, HyperCard is used in lots of K-12 settings and in
lots of homes of lots of hobbyists. Even without the GX vs DPS debate, the
Hypercard newsgroup looks to be about as busy as the next.programmer
newsgroup...

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
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> >If my proposed contest/challenge is so immature and childish and
> >amateurish, I'd expect that no MacOS/GX developer would bother to
> >participate (save the "immature and childish and amateurish" ones),
> >so your comments and personal attacks are rather strange -unless
> >you DO feel threatened in some way by such a proposal...
> 
> 	I'm attempting to point out to you that you won't be likely to 
> bait any NEXT developers into this little contest, since you will then 
> try and worm around to claim that this means it can't be done on the 
> NeXT side...
> 

Excuse? My challenge is for MACINTOSH DEVELOPERS familiar with GX to
implement class libraries using GX that do what Rhapsody class libraries
are projected to do. The only NeXT developers being baited appear to be
those that don't understand the challenge. 

Here it is aGAIN: I believe that if furnished with a list of
methods/classes/capabilities for what Rhapsody text-handling is supposed to
do, DTP and International-wise, that GX developers ON THE MACINTOSH SIDE,
can implement the MacOS equivalent to Rhapsody's international text
handling libraries via GX sooner than the Rhapsody engineers can via the
AppKit, DPS, and GX Typography algorithms lifted from GX.

The ONLY participation from any NeXT developer would be the list of
methods/description of classes/capabilities/etc.

This is a MacOS challenge to MacOS developers to do what Rhapsody-OpenStep
Typography is supposed to do, do it first, and like as not, do it better.

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 03:13:06 GMT
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>


>The ONLY participation from any NeXT developer would be the list of
>methods/description of classes/capabilities/etc.

	Then why are you dumping your crap in the next newsgroups?
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 03:16:09 GMT
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>
>> 
>> >Is it wacko to believe that calling for like-minded individuals
>> >to work on providing a GX-based text-handling class library 
useable
>> >for 20,000,000 end-users is a worthwhile thing to do?
>> >
>> 	
>> 	No.  But its wacko for you to act the way that you do about 
>> the situation.
>> 
>> 	And its a flat out LIE on your part that there are 20,000,000 
>> GX end-users out there.
>
>Ummm... There aren't 20,000,000 System 7.x users, so you're correct,
>this was an out and out lie.
>

	Wow, Lawson admits a lie almost immediately after saying it.

>OTOH, most System 7.x users have never had any reason to install
>GX.  There's been no widely disseminated/advertised 
freeware/shareware
>that used GX for them to experiment with...
>

	No, I think the biggest reasons are they don't have the 
memory, or they would rather keep their current software running and 
printing..
	

>Until now (real soon now, that is).
>
>[...] 
>
>>What the HELL does Hypercard have to do with this?
>
>>Hypercard was, at that time, innovative, neat, new, and 
>>powerful.  Further, from DAY ONE it was EMBRACED BY MANY IF NOT ALL.
>
>>Comparing a failed-to-be-accepted technology like GX to 
>>Hypercard is stupid.
>
>Unless, of course, I actually suceed in making most of the GX API
>accessable and useable to HyperCard developers...


	And even still it has almost NO relevance to this.

	GX hasn't had adopters largely due to its not being wanted by 
most people.

	I hardly think your little stack interface programming deal 
will save GX.



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 03:23:23 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish  said:
>
>> On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>> >Gregory H. Anderson  said:
>> >Lawson English  said:
>> >
>> >[proposal to create GX class library ala Rhapsody text-handling]
>> >
>> >
>> >> >There's enough geeks who like GX that would be willing to work 
on 
>> this
>> >to
>> >> >make it happen, I think.
>> >> 
>> >> Too bad all the NeXT programmers who know enough about DPS have 
>> plenty 
>> >> of real, paying work to do, huh? Go challenge someone who gives 
a 
>> damn.
>> >> 
>> >
>> >DPS doesn't implement what GX does. Nor does the AppKit. You're
>> >confusing the issues. And despite the present problems with MacOS
>> >marketshare, there's far, FAR more Mac developers with real paying
>> >work than NeXT developers.
>> >
>> 
>> 	Shift that goal-post again there Lawson..
>> 
>> 	His point was that the NeXT programmers have better things to 
>> do and much, much work to tend to.  We don't have time to take up 
>> challenges from ranting losers such as yourself.
>> 
>
>The only "challenge" is for WE GX developers to implement the
>functionality of the current and proposed OpenStep/Rhapsody
>text-handling classes using GX as the foundation rather than DPS.
>
>You NeXT/OpenStep developers need only sit back and laugh at our
>pitiable efforts...

	I went back an re-read your challenge/contest.... You're 
right, you aren't bothering any of us with this contest..

	So why are you crapping this here?

	Whatever you manage to due to GX as far as creating a wrapper 
around it (and I question how you intend to get an industrial strength 
set of REALLY USEABLE API's out of this effort, but none-the-less), 
its pointless.

	Apple has picked a new OS.  Apple needs this new OS to grow.  
GX, in its current state as a whole, is not part of this new OS.  Your 
putting wrappers around GX will not change that.

	Will your GX wrappers give MacOS PMT?  Protected memory?  Any 
credibility in the Enterprise Market?  blah blah

	Didn't think so..




-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 21:37:01 -0700
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Scott Anguish  said:
Lawson English  said:
> >
> >Unless, of course, I actually suceed in making most of the GX API
> >accessable and useable to HyperCard developers...
> 
> 
> 	And even still it has almost NO relevance to this.
> 
> 	GX hasn't had adopters largely due to its not being wanted by 
> most people.
> 
> 	I hardly think your little stack interface programming deal 
> will save GX.




It's all in how something is marketed, you know...


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 30 May 1997 21:56:00 -0700
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Scott Anguish  said:
Lawson English  said:

> >You NeXT/OpenStep developers need only sit back and laugh at our
> >pitiable efforts...
> 
> 	I went back an re-read your challenge/contest.... You're 
> right, you aren't bothering any of us with this contest..
> 
> 	So why are you crapping this here?
> 

So why havent' you set suitable followups?

> 	Whatever you manage to due to GX as far as creating a wrapper 
> around it (and I question how you intend to get an industrial strength 
> set of REALLY USEABLE API's out of this effort, but none-the-less), 
> its pointless.

For a rather large base of users who have System 7.x installed on their
systems, anything that enhances their system is NOT pointless, don't you
agree?

> 
> 	Apple has picked a new OS.  Apple needs this new OS to grow.  
> GX, in its current state as a whole, is not part of this new OS.  Your 
> putting wrappers around GX will not change that.
> 

And so?

> 	Will your GX wrappers give MacOS PMT?  Protected memory?  Any 
> credibility in the Enterprise Market?  blah blah

Does Rhapsody give MacOS PMT? Protected memory? Any credibility in the
Enterprise Market? blah blah...

Nope

> 
> 	Didn't think so..
> 
> 

Talk about silly questions. Rhapsody doesn't give MacOS users ANYTHING
except (maybe) an upgrade path sometime in the NeXT 18-24 months to obtain
these oh-so-important buzzwords that were the reason why they bought a Mac
in the first place.

NeXT's purchase may or may not save the company, but for the
immediate-term, MacOS users lost:

 OpenDoc, the world's most powerful compound document architecture
(designed explicitly to replace ActiveX/OLE on MacOS, where it is known to
crash computers that do NOT have installed if they are on the same network
as those that do have it installed);

GX Printing, the world's most powerful printing architecture;

OpenTransport (well sorta, enough high-end potential Rhapsody customers
have been screaming about this one for Amelio to make placating noises);

Janus, the ability to for two or more OpenDoc users to collaborate over a
network while using virtually ANY OD parts;

ANd so on.


GX on HyperCard provides non-professional and shareware programmers to
create stunning end-user (hopefully printable) graphics and animations in
color with professional-level look and feel for all of $5.

In fact, given that NeXT's purchase offers no immediate benefit to ANY
MacOS user, and in fact, was part of the reason why some very useful
projects were cancelled or curtailed on MacOS, I'd say that my $5
shareware/opinionware HyperCard XFCN will add far, FAR more value to
current end-user's machines.

What has Rhapsody graphics done for you or anyone else in the world?


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From: ovidiu@bx.logicnet.ro (Ovidiu Predescu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ANNOUNCE: libFoundation 0.7.1
Date: 30 May 1997 12:28:54 -0700
Organization: None
Lines: 117
Message-ID: <199705301927.WAA00550@m45>
Reply-To: Ovidiu Predescu 
MIME-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2)
Content-Type: text/plain

We are pleased to announce you the availability of libFoundation  
0.7.1, a free and almost complete implementation of Foundation Kit  
as defined by the OpenStep specifications, plus more classes that  
come with the newest releases of OpenStep 4.x. It has completely or  
almost completely implemented the following classes:

NSObject
NSString, NSMutableString
NSArray, NSMutableArray
NSDictionary, NSMutableDictionary
NSSet, NSMutableSet
NSData, NSMutableData
NSValue, NSNumber
NSDate, NSCalendarDate, NSTimeZone
NSCharacterSet
NSEnumerator
NSAutoreleasePool
NSException
NSNotification, NSNotificationCenter
NSCoder, NSArchiver, NSUnarchiver
NSScanner
NSInvocation, NSMethodSignature
NSFileManager
NSBundle
NSProcessInfo
NSAccount
NSDistributedLock
NSPosixFileDescriptor
NSTimer
NSRunLoop
NSThread
NSUserDefaults

Some extensions to the OpenStep specification are also present.  
They include an extended exception handling mechanism, a garbage  
collector based on reference counting and a printf-like formatting  
class. The exception handling mechanism is very similar with those  
found in Java and C++ and requires support for nested functions from  
the compiler. The garbage collector adds the benefits of automatic  
garbage collecting to the OpenStep programs and it is fully  
integrated with OpenStep classes. The printf-like formatting class  
is a general purpose class that can be used to do various operations  
that require parsing of format strings like in printf(). This class  
is used for example to do all the formatting jobs from NSString  
class in libFoundation.

These extensions are also available in a separate library for other  
OpenStep Foundation implementations; the current supported  
Foundation libraries are gnustep-base and the Foundation library in  
NeXTStep 3.3. Support for 4.x OpenStep Foundation library is  
planned.

The library requires the 2.7.2.1 GNU Objective-C compiler with the  
Objective-C patches from Scott Christley .  
On NeXTStep machines the library can also be compiled with NeXT  
Objective-C runtime besides the GNU runtime.

The library was ported on the following platforms:

- m68k-next-nextstep3
- i386-next-nextstep3
- i386-unknown-linux-gnu
- i386-pc-cygwin32 (Windows NT)
- sparc-sun-solaris2.5

Preliminary support has been done for HPUX 9.x. The library also  
runs with GNU runtime on OpenStep 4.x for Mach with the GNU compiler  
(not the native one).

Distributed Objects and Unicode support in NSString are planned.


Changes since version 0.7:
=========================

* The port to Solaris has been completed thanks to Aleksandr
  Savostyanov .

* libFoundation was ported to Windows NT; thanks to Jeremy R. Bettis
  .

* Shared library support has been added. New makefile targets exist
  on systems that support shared libraries (`shared' and
  `install_shared'). The currently supported systems are Linux ELF,
  Solaris and OPENSTEP 4.x.

* NSRunLoop and NSPosixFileDescriptor classes has been finished. The
  NSRunLoop API has been changed to work with NSPosixFileDescriptor
  objects instead of Unix file descriptors.

* Delayed execution of methods in NSObject is now working.

* The library now works with both 960906 and 970318 Objective-C
  runtime patches. (You must have either one of these patches applied
  to the compiler before compiling libFoundation; see the INSTALL
  file for more info.)

* Many bug fixes and improvements in NSInvocation, NSTimer, exception
  handling without nested functions support, NSString, geometry
  functions, NSDistributedLock, NSFileManager and NSRunLoop. See the
  ChangeLog file for a complete list of the changes.


Where you can get it?
=====================

You can download the source code from

ftp://ftp.logicnet.ro:/pub/users/ovidiu/libFoundation-0.7.1.tgz
ftp://ftp.net-community.com/pub/Free/libFoundation-0.7.1.tgz
ftp://koala.NMR.EMBL-Heidelberg.DE:/pub/next/OpenStep/GNUstep/Sources/libFoundation-0.7.1.tgz


Happy hacking,

Ovidiu Predescu 
Mircea Oancea 
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From: "Ed Deans" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 02:52:21 -0700
Organization: Road Runner
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 Scott Anguish wrote in article <5moesg$36b$1@news.digifix.com>...
>On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>Scott Anguish  said:
>>Lawson English  said:
>>
>>Talk about silly questions. Rhapsody doesn't give MacOS users
>>ANYTHING except (maybe) an upgrade path sometime in the NeXT 18-24
>>months to obtain these oh-so-important buzzwords that were the
>>reason why they bought a Mac in the first place.

You're pretty much right from what we know about Rhapsody.  Where's the
innovation that will push Rhapsody into the fore of the market's mind so
Apple will survive?

>> OpenDoc, the world's most powerful compound document architecture
>>(designed explicitly to replace ActiveX/OLE on MacOS, where it is
>>known to crash computers that do NOT have installed if they are
>>on the same network as those that do have it installed);
>>
> OpenDoc wasn't widely adopted by developers.  IBM and everyone
>else involved abandoned in the joint effort.

Novell dumped OpenDoc for Windows into IBM's hands.  IBM did not "abandon"
OpenDoc before Apple did--get your facts straight.  Without Apple's support
there's little IBM could do to further OpenDoc.  

IBM shipped OpenDoc integrated into its OS before Apple did.  For example,
in Warp 4.0 (shipped 9/96; no MacOS has *ever* integrated OpenDoc but it
doesn't install as default with 7.6, shipped 1/97) you can right click on a
graphic document and select Convert ->  and the OS will
handle that for you.  Also, thanks to the OpenDoc multimedia integration in
Warp 4.0 you can double-click to open virtually any image without needing a
separate app.  Movies and Sounds are also supported the OpenDoc multimedia
integration.  These are the facts.  So, now tell me who didn't do support
OpenDoc enough.  Let me help you: A-P-P-L-E, that's who.

> Apple alone couldn't support a cross-platform thing like
>OpenDoc and hope that it will be accepted.

See above.

>>GX Printing, the world's most powerful printing architecture;
>>
>
> That screwed up non-GX software's abilty to print.

Sure it does but you should remember that BOTH were supported.  GX was
supposed to be the future so developers were supposedly fixing their apps
to support it.  Apple let GX die.  Even with GX not have been wild adopted,
developers had been told since its debut to plan for it--now it's plan for
DPS, which is lacking in places that GX was not.

>>
>>What has Rhapsody graphics done for you or anyone else in the world?
>>
>
> Given developers faith that Apple can and will ship a new OS
>before the end of the Century?

Even on its deathbed, the worst case for Copland was a ship date before Jan
1, 2000.



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From: Konstantin Wiesel 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep 4.2
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:37:41 +0000
Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany)
Lines: 32
Message-ID: 
References: <5m0nlh$naj@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>  <5m32ha$48g$1@news.digifix.com> <5mn6o0$q5e@news-rocq.inria.fr> <5mne71$lbr$1@news.digifix.com>
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On 30 May 1997, Scott Anguish wrote:

> On 05/30/97, Francois Pottier wrote:
> >In article <5m32ha$48g$1@news.digifix.com>,
> >Scott Anguish  wrote:

> >like to give OpenStep development a try. However, I have been told
> >that its Unix layer is not "standard" or "modern", meaning mostly 
> that
> >it is not Posix-compliant and that I would have trouble compiling
> >off-the-shelf "Unix" sources. Is this true? Any comments?
> >
> 	I'm not sure who told you that...
> 
> 	I've got many off-the-shelf UNIX sources compiled and running 
> on my machine...
> 
> 	stuff like INN, Sendmail, PGP, PERL, NCFTP, etc...

The latest of PGP and NCFTP dont compile off the shelf just by running a
configure script and make, especially not on the OpenStep OS. I am not
saying that it is impossible to compile them but most unix programms
DO NOT compile that easy. NCFTP for instance  needs a curses library
update because the ones installed are outdated and if i remeber right i
was unable to compile it under OS4.1. The same holds true for PGP, it also
has to be modified in order to compile.

Regards
Konstantin Wiesel
Email:kwiesel@mailhost.jura.uni-bonn.de


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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 13:00:42 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 29
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In article  the mad chick "Lawson English"  
 writes:
>  After many, MANY attempts at trying to remind you and your friends what
> your own manuals implicitly say about the joys of retained mode graphics,
> you still fail to grasp an important point explicitly mentioned in the NeXT
> DPS manual: making lots of calls via the DPS communications channel is
> inefficient.

This is true for any graphics library and even OpenGL's manual has similar  
comments (or now you probably will start claiming that GX is faster than GL --  
this is the next logical stage in your paranoid development). The reason is not  
the library per se, but the graphics hardware...

> GX, on the other hand, caches the color info internally within each object
> (or group of objects) so that there is no slowdown inherent in drawing
> objects of different colors in any order.

And do you really believe that this caching is for free and does not coasts CPU  
cycles? If yes, you need immediate medical treatment...


 
--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street 
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude WebObjects serial number?
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 09:53:28 -0400
Organization: Language Schools of Middlebury College
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comrade@umich.edu,UseNet writes:

>  I just finished installing the Prelude WebObjects stuff (on Mach) and

>it's now asking me for a serial number. It's making reference to a

>registration card. I've looked through the 'Getting Started on WebObject=
s'

>book and the 'Installation Guide' booklet, but I can't find a reference =
to

>the serial number. I also looked at the CD. =

>  This seems to be everything I received at WWDC that has anything to do=


>with WebObjects. Has anyone else gotten around this?


The serial number is on the plastic sleeve that the WebObjects disc was d=
istributed in. Recall that WebObjects was distributed later during the WW=
DC in a separate sleeve from the rest of 4.2.



-- =

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.middlebury.edu

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From: jcr@idiom.com (John C. Randolph)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 07:06:39 -0700
Organization: Idiom Consulting - ISP, http://www.idiom.com
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Lawson asked:

>Is it wacko to believe that a retained mode interface is superior to an
>immediate-mode graphics engine?

This is an academic argument.  The question at hand is whether a
particular graphics system that is based on a database of shape
objects (GX) is superior to another particular graphics system
based on a programming language (DPS).

FYI, there was a Postscript-based display system that kept objects
in the server as the normal modus operandi (NeWS), and NeXT was
entirely aware of it when they designed the AppKit and the window
server.  NeXT chose to keep the objects in the Obj-C code, and let
DPS deal with the drawing.  

NeWS was a good idea, and it worked.  The AppKit + DPS is a good
idea, and it works, too.  Whether displayable entities should live
in the App or the display engine is *not* the question.  Either
approach is possible under NEXTSTEP.  Some people implemented
objects on the server side (like me, for the exercise) but most
didn't.


>Is it wacko to believe that Apple has made a BIG mistake in embracing DPS
>over GX/Taligent?

Yes.  Get some counseling.

>Is it wacko to believe that calling for like-minded individuals to work on
>providing a GX-based text-handling class library useable for 20,000,000
>end-users is a worthwhile thing to do?

Okay, you've convinced me.  I'll start helping you with this task,
Lawson, as soon as I finish re-implementing the Foundation Kit in
APL, and re-writing the AppKit in simscript.

-jcr

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From: crobato@kuentos.guam.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 14:11:54 GMT
Organization: Kuentos Communications Inc.
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In <5mosb1$9v6@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans"  writes:
> Scott Anguish wrote in article <5moesg$36b$1@news.digifix.com>...
>>On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>>>Scott Anguish  said:
>>>Lawson English  said:
>>>
>>>Talk about silly questions. Rhapsody doesn't give MacOS users
>>>ANYTHING except (maybe) an upgrade path sometime in the NeXT 18-24
>>>months to obtain these oh-so-important buzzwords that were the
>>>reason why they bought a Mac in the first place.
>
>You're pretty much right from what we know about Rhapsody.  Where's the
>innovation that will push Rhapsody into the fore of the market's mind so
>Apple will survive?

How about being a true Object Oriented OS from just above the kernel 
right into the interface?  Can you count in your fingers how many 
OO-OSes are there in the world?   There is BeOS, which also runs in 
Power Macs.  There is Newton OS, which does not run in Power Macs but is
also owned by Apple.  

Right now OpenStep has a good claim to being the most robust and proven 
object framework in the world as well as being among the most portable. 
It is clearly the most developed.   Compared to OpenDOC, SOM, Cairo,
OLE/ActiveX, Be, Appware, Taligent, and even Java, OpenStep can be 
described as being ahead in terms of years.  

>>> OpenDoc, the world's most powerful compound document architecture
>>>(designed explicitly to replace ActiveX/OLE on MacOS, where it is
>>>known to crash computers that do NOT have installed if they are
>>>on the same network as those that do have it installed);
>>>
>> OpenDoc wasn't widely adopted by developers.  IBM and everyone
>>else involved abandoned in the joint effort.
>
>Novell dumped OpenDoc for Windows into IBM's hands.  IBM did not "abandon"
>OpenDoc before Apple did--get your facts straight.  Without Apple's support
>there's little IBM could do to further OpenDoc.  
>
>IBM shipped OpenDoc integrated into its OS before Apple did.  For example,
>in Warp 4.0 (shipped 9/96; no MacOS has *ever* integrated OpenDoc but it
>doesn't install as default with 7.6, shipped 1/97) you can right click on a
>graphic document and select Convert ->  and the OS will
>handle that for you.  Also, thanks to the OpenDoc multimedia integration in
>Warp 4.0 you can double-click to open virtually any image without needing a
>separate app.  Movies and Sounds are also supported the OpenDoc multimedia
>integration.  These are the facts.  So, now tell me who didn't do support
>OpenDoc enough.  Let me help you: A-P-P-L-E, that's who.

This is strange.  Apple, not IBM, was the one that came close in 
delivering a truly usable OpenDOC app---Cyberdog.   Apple had Cyberdog 
as early in the first quarter of 1996.  OpenDOC on Warp v4
didn't even make  a good demo.  It was particularly memory hungry and it
dragged the OS with it that no one really installed it.  In contrast, 
OpenDOC on the Macintosh was fast, stable and considerably memory 
thrifty---OpenDOC+Cyberdog ate much less than Netscape 3.0 as an 
application did and was praised for its stability.   For that matter, 
Macs had the first truly commerical OpenDOC  application, the WAV word 
processor.

It was also in my impression that IBM gave up on OpenDOC first to 
concentrate on Java.



>> Apple alone couldn't support a cross-platform thing like
>>OpenDoc and hope that it will be accepted.
>
>See above.
>
>>>GX Printing, the world's most powerful printing architecture;
>>>
>>
>> That screwed up non-GX software's abilty to print.
>
>Sure it does but you should remember that BOTH were supported.  GX was
>supposed to be the future so developers were supposedly fixing their apps
>to support it.  Apple let GX die.  Even with GX not have been wild adopted,
>developers had been told since its debut to plan for it--now it's plan for
>DPS, which is lacking in places that GX was not.
>

This GX dying thing is a big clique by now.   GX printing had little 
support when everyone is standardizing on Display Postscript.  GX 
graphics routines however, are rolled into the Rhapsody graphics engine.  


>>>
>>>What has Rhapsody graphics done for you or anyone else in the world?
>>>
>>
>> Given developers faith that Apple can and will ship a new OS
>>before the end of the Century?
>
>Even on its deathbed, the worst case for Copland was a ship date before Jan
>1, 2000.

In the end Copland proved to be rather an unwieldy and cluttered 
design---too many diversified technologies crammed into a single ball 
already burdened by legacy compatibility considerations.  Hancock felt 
she could not release the developer's version of Copland to Apple 
developers and still look straight into the mirror.  I would liken 
Copland to Windows 95---a mess underneath combining both Win32 and 
Win16 routines into an interdependent spagetti without a real firewall. 
Rhapsody would be more akin closer to OS/2, where you have a distinct 
firewall seperation of what is native OS/2 to legacy DOS and Windows.


Rgds,

Chris



*** The Windows Guide to Impotence ***
Abort, Retry, Fail???
Abort, Retry, Fail???
Abort, Retry, Fail???
>>>crobato@kuentos.guam.net<<<



####################################################################
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From: Markus Gloede 
Subject: Re: services call from the commandline?
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Message-ID: <7x206nu1ev.fsf@burrow.muc.de>
To: uli@tallowcross.uni-frankfurt.de (Uli Zappe)
Lines: 11
Sender: tm@burrow.muc.de (the mole)
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Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:06:00 GMT

>>>>> "UZ" == Uli Zappe  writes:

    UZ> Hi, is there a way to call an application's services in a
    UZ> shell script?

A (possibly dirty) workaround might be to use Emacs in batch mode
which is able to use services. Some elisp knowledge is necessary,
though.


Markus "n.s" Gloede
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: running dynamically loaded object files
Date: 31 May 1997 17:04:07 GMT
Organization: Geeks Organizations
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nobody   nogroup  wrote:
> Specifically I've got a program which generates assembly code and uses
> as to assemble object files.  How can my program load these object
> files and run functions?

Use rld_load to load the object file. See NeXTSTEP Developer for details.
When the object is loaded, use rld_lookup to obtain a function pointer.
Hope this helps.

-- 
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 ::
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 15:11:03 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 30-May-97 Re: GX OOP class
proposal &.. by "Lawson English"@primene 
>>       And all they really need to do is take the algorithms and use 
>> them. That is where the value lies in the GX Typography at this point.
>  
> Oh really?
>  
>  After many, MANY attempts at trying to remind you and your friends what
> your own manuals implicitly say about the joys of retained mode graphics,
> you still fail to grasp an important point explicitly mentioned in the NeXT
> DPS manual: making lots of calls via the DPS communications channel is
> inefficient.

That's not especially true.  What is inefficient is making round trips,
ie, doing some operation that returns a value back from DPS to your app
which you need to get before you can proceed futher.  This is
inefficient because of the context switch overhead to go back and forth
between your process and the WindowServer, and has nothing to do with
DPS itself per se.

Any graphics system which uses an IPC mechanism (ie, client-server
communications) exhibits the same behavior for the same reasons; their
advantage is that an IPC model supports remotabiblity and explicitly
imposes a serialization mechanism which makes the graphics system
thread-safe without imposing overhead for protecting shared resources.

How does one remotely display a GX application?  Is GX thread-safe?

> Specifically, as benchmarked in the NeXT DPS manual, changing color state
> info constantly can result in drawing inefficiency. The manual suggests
> that one draw objects of like color consecutively, rather than at random to
> avoid this potential slowdown.

That's correct-- drawing things grouped by color is somewhat more
efficient than randomly changing colors.

This is a relatively minor optimization issue, and it's bizzare that you
keep bringing this up as if it were a telling point.  Going over the
details of how you optimize DPS drawing doesn't seem to have much
relevance.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: oklahoma special effects
Message-ID: <5mm1v2$l8o@news2.cais.com>
From: steve edwards
Date: 30 May 1997 08:09:06 GMT
Organization: tulsa stage lighting
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thanks for your intrest.  as many of you know we supply fog, smoke, bubble, snow, strobe. black light, and other 
equipment to millitary, government, stage, and theatrical productions. if i can help you with any special effect
let me know... we also stock high power lamps from 500w to 20,000w ( new meaning to night lights) thanx steve
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From: "Joseph A. Woo" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 13:51:17 -0700
Organization: Wootech Corporation
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>         Either pay the $250 to join the Apple Developer program at the 
> lowest level (which gets you loads of material in a timely fashion) or 
> wait for Premier.
> 
>         Thats not unreasonable.  
> 

I have to agree with the above statement.  It is ONLY $250.00 to become
an Apple Developer program member and is well worth the cost.  You get
loads of stuff from Apple and OpenStep(minus WebObjects) for free.

What are all of you complaining about??  GO PAY YOUR $250 AND STOP
COMPLAINING.  Geez, those of you who want everything for free are being
rediculous.  If you can't pay $250 now, save it and then pay if it is
that important to you.  BTW:  If you join the Apple Developer Program
now, then you will get Rhapsody Developer release and all other
pre-release software(as long as you sign the Apple NDA).

Again, Apple is not being unreasonable and they have done a great job
with their new dual OS strategy and I can say that OpenStep is a dream
to use.  Anyhow, if you develop for the Mac, serious or not, you should
be a developer program member.
-- 
Joseph A.  Woo
Wootech Corporation
Voice: (415)631-8212
Fax: (415)631-0414
Web: http://www.wootech.com
Wootech Corporation will bring you the future of internet
publishing, coming soon to a desktop near you...
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From: NoSpa.Mgustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Rhapsody DR to also support 9500 and 9600 PowerMacs
Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 17:57:08 -0400
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
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this is in addition to the earlier announced support for the 8500/8600 systems

full text at this URL: 

-----------

Bicycle Crash Test Dummy for Hire
gustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
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 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
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 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


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 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
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 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


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 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
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news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
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news:comp.sys.next.software

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 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
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Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
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     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Sun,  1 Jun 1997 00:57:56 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 30-May-97 Re: GX OOP class
proposal &.. by "Lawson English"@primene 
>>       Certainly not.  However Lawson's GX Jihad is hardly GNU.  GNU 
>> has some credibility, and even Stallman isn't as wacko as you.
>  
> Is it wacko to believe that a retained mode interface is superior to an
> immediate-mode graphics engine?

Yes.  Both models have advantages and disadvantages, and you can easily
think of common circumstances where one is better suited for a
particular role than the other.

> Is it wacko to believe that Apple has made a BIG mistake in embracing DPS
> over GX/Taligent?

Yes.  DPS works really well, and there are a large number of successful,
best-of-breed applications which were written using DPS.

Going by the standard of "are there any successful, best-of-breed apps
available?", both GX and Taligent failed to deliver.

> Is it wacko to believe that calling for like-minded individuals to work on
> providing a GX-based text-handling class library useable for 20,000,000
> end-users is a worthwhile thing to do?

Yes.  GX, while it had some interesting ideas, was flawed in many
respects to the point that essential functionality like printing didn't
work.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 23:26:00 -0700
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Charles William Swiger  said:

[color state grouping for optimization]

> This is a relatively minor optimization issue, and it's bizzare that you
> keep bringing this up as if it were a telling point.  Going over the
> details of how you optimize DPS drawing doesn't seem to have much
> relevance.



In the context of saying that one can simply lift algorithms used in a
retained graphics engine and plunk them into an immediate mode engine that
renders by making calls over a communications channel and expect equivalent
performance automatically, I think it is *quite* relevant.

There's a LOT of state-changes that can occur during the rendering of a GX
layout shape and I doubt that algorithms that are fast using the
retained-state info of GX are going to be fast when used  in the APpKit.

It goes both ways, of course. People have pointed out that the structure of
the data found in the GX Layout shape may not be a good fit for the data
structures used in  text-oriented apps. OTOH, I know that
DTP/word-processing apps using GX have been implemented and are shipping in
various countries around the world, so it obviously isn't impossible.

++++++++++++++++++++
YAS [Yet Another Sig]


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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 1 Jun 1997 06:38:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 05/31/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Charles William Swiger  said:
>
>[color state grouping for optimization]
>
>> This is a relatively minor optimization issue, and it's bizzare 
that you
>> keep bringing this up as if it were a telling point.  Going over 
the
>> details of how you optimize DPS drawing doesn't seem to have much
>> relevance.
>
>In the context of saying that one can simply lift algorithms used
>in a retained graphics engine and plunk them into an immediate
>mode engine that renders by making calls over a communications
>channel and expect equivalent performance automatically, I think
>it is *quite* relevant.
>

	You're wrong.

	The GX stuff we are talking about here is line-layout, 
specifically the positioning of various glyphs and such..

	All that information is available on the AppKit side of the 
equation.... all of that positioning can be handled without traversing 
the communication channel to the DPS server.



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 31 May 1997 10:41:01 -0700
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crobato@kuentos.guam.net said:
In <5mosb1$9v6@proxye1.san.rr.com>, "Ed Deans"  writes:

> >
> >Sure it does but you should remember that BOTH were supported.  GX was
> >supposed to be the future so developers were supposedly fixing their
apps
> >to support it.  Apple let GX die.  Even with GX not have been wild
adopted,
> >developers had been told since its debut to plan for it--now it's plan
for
> >DPS, which is lacking in places that GX was not.
> >
> 
> This GX dying thing is a big clique by now.   GX printing had little 
> support when everyone is standardizing on Display Postscript.  GX 
> graphics routines however, are rolled into the Rhapsody graphics engine. 

> 
> 

"Everyone is standardizing on Display PostScript..."

What everyone? Under the current Rhapsody graphics model, unless you need
to do something unusually fast, you use the C wrappers to code to a
QuickDraw-like model with floating point coordinates. There's also a Bezier
curve class, but that is also a non-PS model.

Where's the "standarizing on DPS" there?

Also, what "everyone?"

Unless you've committed to developing for Rhapsody-only, you're still using
QuickDraw or GX on the MacOS side. (unless you happen to have a spare
Display GhostScript-like interpreter lying around for use on the MacOS like
Adobe, MacroMedia and a few other companies may).


The point of the contest is two-fold:

1) to provide Rhapsody-text functionality (maybe even using the same
class/method structure) to MacOS developers

2) to point out that implementing Rhapsody-text functionality using GX is
easier than implementing GX-like typographical features using DPS + APpKit.


  Dr. Amelio...



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Apple is handcuffed to a burning building and has started to
chew off its right leg to survive." - David Brady
referring to rumored Apple cuts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: pretzl@pobox.com (Allan Peretz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 13:44:08 GMT
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On Sat, 31 May 1997 13:51:17 -0700, "Joseph A. Woo" 
wrote:

>I have to agree with the above statement.  It is ONLY $250.00 to become
>an Apple Developer program member and is well worth the cost.  You get
>loads of stuff from Apple and OpenStep(minus WebObjects) for free.
>
>What are all of you complaining about??  GO PAY YOUR $250 AND STOP
>COMPLAINING.  Geez, those of you who want everything for free are being
>rediculous.  If you can't pay $250 now, save it and then pay if it is
>that important to you.  BTW:  If you join the Apple Developer Program
>now, then you will get Rhapsody Developer release and all other
>pre-release software(as long as you sign the Apple NDA).

Mr. Woo:

You are incorrect.  Joining the Dev. Program now will probably *not*
get you a copy of the prelude.  The supplies are extremely limited and
are not anticipated to last as long as the 10 day wait for a Dev.
Program membership.  Also, I'm not a developer (unless you consider
providing database and accounting system solutions to the business
community development) so I don't see why I should have to join this
program just to buy a reasonably priced copy of OS 4.2.

Allan Peretz
Information Technology Specialist
Clifton Gunderson, L.L.C.

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From: George Pipkin 
Subject: Master/Detail in Rhapsody Prelude: an update
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   Like many other people, I have been playing around with the Rhapsody
Prelude disks.  I set up a simple database, and used the EO Modeler and
the Interface Builderto create a simple application.  Last week I
noticed that the software didn't work as I anticipated - in particular,
when I dragged a relationship from EO Modeler to a window, it didn't
create a table object for the detail entity.  Moreover, then I attempted
to do this "manually" as described in the manual, the relationship
didn't appear to be available in the Inspector to make the appropriate
connection.

   Since then I have continued fooling around with in in odd hours, and
I discovered that this phenemon appears to take place only when the
databases you are working with are already populated with data.  I have
tested this on two different installations of the disk, and with trwo
different adaptors: the Sybase adaptor, and the ODBC adaptor going to
SQL anywhere.  If the databases are non populoated with test daa, all
appears to work as adveretised.

   I am surprised that I have not seen much mention of this on the
various mailing lists since it would appear that this problem would
prevent anyone from successfully going through the tutorials provided in
the documentaion - particularly te Movie/Studio database if they had
loaded the data before trying the tutorial as the documentation
instructs them to.  I would be interested to know if anybody had
successfully done this.  What I am attempting to determine is if this is
a problem related to Sybase or adaptors going against Sybase or if this
is something more general.  Does this happen with Oracle users ?


- George Pipkin

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------------------>>>>> FREE GIFTS!!

-------------------->>>>>>>> FREE GIFTS!!!

Come visit our WEB SITE & Receive $99.00 worth of FREE GIFTS!

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 1 Jun 1997 16:13:11 GMT
Organization: University of Sheffield, UK
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On 05/31/97, "Ed Deans" wrote:
> >>Lawson English  said:
> >>
> >>Talk about silly questions. Rhapsody doesn't give MacOS users
> >>ANYTHING except (maybe) an upgrade path sometime in the NeXT 18-24
> >>months to obtain these oh-so-important buzzwords that were the
> >>reason why they bought a Mac in the first place.
> 
> You're pretty much right from what we know about Rhapsody.  Where's the
> innovation that will push Rhapsody into the fore of the market's mind so
> Apple will survive?
> 
Umm, was this rhetorical sarcasm?  In case it wasn't, how about:

(Innovation as far as MacOS goes):
Preemptive multitasking; multi-threading; multi-user capability...

Unified imaging model; OO development environment; unequalled cross-platform 
compatibility...

and so on.

> > Given developers faith that Apple can and will ship a new OS
> >before the end of the Century?
> 
> Even on its deathbed, the worst case for Copland was a ship date before Jan
> 1, 2000.
> 
Again it's not clear what you're implying here -- in case you're suggesting 
Rhapsody won't ship until then, I'm prepared to lay a bet that it will ship 
to the general public prior to end of 1998 (developers will get their hands 
on it by end Q3 this year) -- and this is a conservative estimate.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 1 Jun 1997 10:50:01 -0700
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Charles William Swiger  said:
Lawson English  said:

> > Is it wacko to believe that a retained mode interface is superior to an
> > immediate-mode graphics engine?
> 
> Yes.  Both models have advantages and disadvantages, and you can easily
> think of common circumstances where one is better suited for a
> particular role than the other.
> 

Fair enough. The solution is to implement a hybrid that uses the best of
both worlds. The current implementation of DPS does NOT look like it would
be a good basis for such a hybrid engine.

> > Is it wacko to believe that Apple has made a BIG mistake in embracing
> DPS
> > over GX/Taligent?
> 
> Yes.  DPS works really well, and there are a large number of successful,
> best-of-breed applications which were written using DPS.
> 
> Going by the standard of "are there any successful, best-of-breed apps
> available?", both GX and Taligent failed to deliver.

Ready, Set, Go, GX consistently gets high marks in reviews and is the only
Chinese DTP system for the Mac that I'm aware of. The Arabic-localized
version will be out shortly, I've heard. Tailor GX was implemented using
GX. Typistry was implemented using GX. LightningDraw GX gets high marks in
its price-range. Electrifier has been named one of the top 32 Netscape
plug-ins, I understand (a GX-based plug-in). Others exist, I'm sure...

> 
> > Is it wacko to believe that calling for like-minded individuals to work
on
> > providing a GX-based text-handling class library useable for 20,000,000
> > end-users is a worthwhile thing to do?
> 
> Yes.  GX, while it had some interesting ideas, was flawed in many
> respects to the point that essential functionality like printing didn't
> work.

Well, in fact, I've got GX installed on my system. Some non-GX apps require
me to temporarily disable GX Printing before they'll print. Others will
attempt to patch "Classic Printing" and will crash the system if I attempt
to print from them (these I tend to avoid using whenever possible). Others
will convert QuickDraw constructs into GX shapes and print just fine.

Never had a problem with a GX-specific app printing.

Which means that all one needs to do to "fix" GX printing is convert it to
shared libraries that provide a standardized interface to "Classic
Printing" for GX-savvy apps rather than trying to replace Classic Printing
with GX.

Once that is done, the problems with GX Printing automatically go away
because only those apps designed to look for it will interact with it in
any way. That means that both GX and NON-GX apps that can print to the GX
Printing model can still gain benefits from doing so.

One could even provide *auxilliary* info as a set of resources in a given
Classic Print driver that could be used to provide many of the current GX
Printing services, again, without interfering in any way with those apps
that aren't happy with GX Printing.


Those problems that exist with GX Printing are completely fixable using my
suggestion above and would provide great benefit to any System 7.x users
with enough RAM to handle GX Printing (which is quite a few, these days). 

The vast majority of users will be using MacOS for many, MANY years. To
cripple the current capabilities rather than fixing them suggests that
Apple management is wearing blinders because enhancements to the CURRENTLY
SHIPPING OS are what is going to save Apple long enough for Rhapsody to
even ship.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguishable from technology
-my corollary to Clarke's Law 
(AFAIK Mercedes Lackey got it from me at a World Fantasy Convention)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 1 Jun 1997 11:01:00 -0700
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Scott Anguish  said:
Lawson English  said:

> >In the context of saying that one can simply lift algorithms used
> >in a retained graphics engine and plunk them into an immediate
> >mode engine that renders by making calls over a communications
> >channel and expect equivalent performance automatically, I think
> >it is *quite* relevant.
> >
> 
> 	You're wrong.
> 
> 	The GX stuff we are talking about here is line-layout, 
> specifically the positioning of various glyphs and such..
> 
> 	All that information is available on the AppKit side of the 
> equation.... all of that positioning can be handled without traversing 
> the communication channel to the DPS server.

This doesn't address the question: what is a GX glyph?

GX text shapes can apply typefaces, which include *layers* of predefined
variations of a given glyph, applied on a glyph-by-glyph basis to the
formatted text of the GX Layout shape. The resultant hybrid glyph info is
almost certainly stored as bitmaps within the layout shape. While you could
create a new PS font for each style-run that uses typefaces in the layout
shape, that would be a bit time-consuming, I suspect, although it might
save space in the long run if a single style-run were used for every glyph.

Then there's the issue of constantly changing faces, fonts, languages,
sytles,  etc. In the most pathological case, that info could change with
every glyph, making the communications latency a major issue instead of a
minor one.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ImagineAsig (tm)


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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Prelude WebObjects serial number?
Date: 1 Jun 97 14:36:11 -0400
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On Fri, May 30, 1997 6:08 PM, Scott Anguish 
wrote:
>	I believe its on the back of the envelope that the CD came 
>in..
>	I'd suggest immediately transferring it to the CD using a 
>Sharpie magic marker..

  I, and a coworker that was at the conference with me, made the mistake of
immediately transferring the WebObjects cd to the plastic carrying case
that the other Prelude cds were in. Does anyone know if the serial numbers
are unique to each cd? There were a couple other people from the U of MI
that were at the conference. I could try to use their number.

  

rob
--


Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #2: "Has anyone seen Chris? I have some last minute
instructions for the scene where he wrestles the evil monkey." -Get a Life


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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 1 Jun 1997 19:33:32 GMT
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>GX, on the other hand, DOES support bi-directional text, even in the
>simplest of its text-shapes.

This feature isn't specific to GX, because GX isn't required to
do bidirectional text handling available via hebrew language kit.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue  M/S 44UR
Enterprise Systems Division       Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open Warehouse Team               1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.1053
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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 1 Jun 1997 19:51:18 GMT
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>And how well does it handle bi-directional text? Arabic? Vertical Chinese?
>Vertical English (for that matter)?

The wonderful thing with objects is once Rhapsody supports bi-directional
and vertical text, all apps will have 'em. That capability shouldn't be
a concern for AFS because Apple has said they will roll much of Mac's
int'l capabilities into Rhapsody.

I would welcome vertical text, but it's not a prerequisite unless one's
doing traditional manuscripts. A lot of data is done right-to-left, top-
to-bottom these days, in China and Japan. Though it would be good to
have top-to-bottom, right-to-left as well as right-to-left, top-to-bottom.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue  M/S 44UR
Enterprise Systems Division       Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 1 Jun 1997 19:59:21 GMT
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>                  NeXT's Internationalization is far superior to MacOS's
>and GX's from what NeXT developers are constantly claiming.
>
>Does anyone but me fail to note the logic-error in the above assertion
>about NeXT's superior Internationalization support?

I'd say NeXT's foundation for achieving i18n is superior to that
available on Macintosh today. Feature-wise, the Mac is ahead, but
these features are available without GX.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue  M/S 44UR
Enterprise Systems Division       Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open Warehouse Team               1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.1053
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From: cstory@research.canon.com.au
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 07:56:11 +1000
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> You are incorrect.  Joining the Dev. Program now will probably *not*
> get you a copy of the prelude.  The supplies are extremely limited and
> are not anticipated to last as long as the 10 day wait for a Dev.
> Program membership.  Also, I'm not a developer (unless you consider
> providing database and accounting system solutions to the business
> community development) so I don't see why I should have to join this
> program just to buy a reasonably priced copy of OS 4.2.

If you're not a developer, you don't need it.  The point of the
Prelude is to introduce developers to the tools that will be
included in Rhapsody DR (Developer's Release).  It's to encourage
software development for Rhapsody.  If you're not a developer, you
don't really fit in.  Apple isn't pushing NextStep.

BTW, the notice I got about the Prelude was that it was limited
to members of the seed program, a subset of the developer program
(although I suspect a dense subset).

Cliff
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Books?
Date: 1 Jun 97 19:33:44 -0400
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  Can anyone recommend some good Objective C and OpenStep programming
books? I couldn't find any at the Addison Wesley web site, but I would like
books of their quality (It's gotten to the point where I really don't trust
anyone but AW).

  I would like an Objective C programming language reference book.

  I would also like some OpenStep books. I would particularly like to have
a book that has all the classes in alphabetical order and a brief
description of their methods and with tons of sample code (a perfect
example of this is the AW book called 'Java Class Libraries - an Annotated
Reference').

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: alex@WebIS.net (Alex Kac)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 20:44:04 -0600
Organization: Web Information Solutions---Interactive and database web design studio
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

: Charles William Swiger  said:
: Lawson English  said:
: > Yes.  DPS works really well, and there are a large number of successful,
: > best-of-breed applications which were written using DPS.
: > 
: > Going by the standard of "are there any successful, best-of-breed apps
: > available?", both GX and Taligent failed to deliver.
: 
: Ready, Set, Go, GX consistently gets high marks in reviews and is the only
: Chinese DTP system for the Mac that I'm aware of. The Arabic-localized
: version will be out shortly, I've heard. Tailor GX was implemented using
: GX. Typistry was implemented using GX. LightningDraw GX gets high marks in
: its price-range. Electrifier has been named one of the top 32 Netscape
: plug-ins, I understand (a GX-based plug-in). Others exist, I'm sure...

None of those are best of breed. 
*I cannot use Read, Set Go in any form (GX or not) to do any of my work
well. PageMaker or Quark please. 
*Tailor first came out on NeXT and had many problems with GX...
*LightningDraw again does not have the feature set of either Illustrator
or Freehand. Definately NOT best of breed, though it DID have nice
features related to transparency. 
*I hate electrifier. It is a horrible little plugin that does nothing good
on the web. I have not seen one web site that uses it that I have
remarked, wow, that looks cool. I refuse to go to any site that asks me to
use it.

: 
: Well, in fact, I've got GX installed on my system. Some non-GX apps require
: me to temporarily disable GX Printing before they'll print. Others will
: attempt to patch "Classic Printing" and will crash the system if I attempt
: to print from them (these I tend to avoid using whenever possible). Others
: will convert QuickDraw constructs into GX shapes and print just fine.
: 
: Never had a problem with a GX-specific app printing.

You know, that means nothing. Of course apps written for GX will work
fine, but 99% of programs aren't. And there are definately NO programs
written that use GX that are worth using when quality is on the line.

-- 
Web Information Solutions develops interactive and database driven websites. For more information, go to 
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Books?
Date: 2 Jun 1997 04:00:19 GMT
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On 06/01/97, "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
>
>  Can anyone recommend some good Objective C and OpenStep programming
>books? I couldn't find any at the Addison Wesley web site, but I 
would like
>books of their quality (It's gotten to the point where I really don't 
trust
>anyone but AW).
>
>  I would like an Objective C programming language reference book.
>
>  I would also like some OpenStep books. I would particularly like to 
have
>a book that has all the classes in alphabetical order and a brief
>description of their methods and with tons of sample code (a
>perfect example of this is the AW book called 'Java Class Libraries
>- an Annotated Reference').
>

	There is a list of the available reading materials at 

	http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books

	The quality of the two OpenStep books that are currently out 
there is very high, Developing Business Apps on OpenStep from Nik 
Gervae and Pete Clark... and Openstep for Enterprises by Nancy 
Craighill.

	The Preface of the first is on Stepwise at that location..

	Other than those references, get the PDF documents from 
www.next.com , the quality of NeXT's documentation is good to 
excellent, especially on Obj-C..



	
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 04:07:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 06/01/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Charles William Swiger  said:
>Lawson English  said:
>
>> > Is it wacko to believe that a retained mode interface is superior 
to an
>> > immediate-mode graphics engine?
>> 
>> Yes.  Both models have advantages and disadvantages, and you can 
easily
>> think of common circumstances where one is better suited for a
>> particular role than the other.
>> 
>
>Fair enough. The solution is to implement a hybrid that uses the
>best of both worlds. The current implementation of DPS does NOT
>look like it would be a good basis for such a hybrid engine.
>

	Then kiss Apple goodbye... They don't have the extra time for 
this.  Especially when the returns would be little if any.

>> > Is it wacko to believe that Apple has made a BIG mistake in 
embracing
>> DPS
>> > over GX/Taligent?
>> 
>> Yes.  DPS works really well, and there are a large number of 
successful,
>> best-of-breed applications which were written using DPS.
>> 
>> Going by the standard of "are there any successful, best-of-breed 
apps
>> available?", both GX and Taligent failed to deliver.
>
>Ready, Set, Go, GX consistently gets high marks in reviews and is
>the only Chinese DTP system for the Mac that I'm aware of. The
>Arabic-localized version will be out shortly, I've heard. Tailor
>GX was implemented using GX. Typistry was implemented using GX.
>LightningDraw GX gets high marks in its price-range. Electrifier
>has been named one of the top 32 Netscape plug-ins, I understand
>(a GX-based plug-in). Others exist, I'm sure...
>

	FreeHand.. Illustrator... PageMaker... PhotoShop... 

	Canvas.... PowerCadd... 

	All best of breed apps, the first four are MUST HAVE apps for 
DTP... none require GX.  The list of high-quality visual apps that 
DON'T use GX is long and distinguished...

	That doesn't mean the others aren't good apps, but it does 
mean that the Mac can succeed without GX...




	
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 2 Jun 1997 04:13:34 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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Note that I've adjusted the followups to remove the next..programmer 
group..  Its safe to assume that they don't want to hear more of 
Lawson's GX rant....

On 06/01/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>
>Scott Anguish  said:
>Lawson English  said:
>
>> >In the context of saying that one can simply lift algorithms used
>> >in a retained graphics engine and plunk them into an immediate
>> >mode engine that renders by making calls over a communications
>> >channel and expect equivalent performance automatically, I think
>> >it is *quite* relevant.
>> >
>> 
>> 	You're wrong.
>> 
>> 	The GX stuff we are talking about here is line-layout, 
>> specifically the positioning of various glyphs and such..
>> 
>> 	All that information is available on the AppKit side of the 
>> equation.... all of that positioning can be handled without 
traversing 
>> the communication channel to the DPS server.
>
>This doesn't address the question: what is a GX glyph?
>

	Who gives a Rat's Ass(TM)?  

>GX text shapes can apply typefaces, which include *layers* of
>predefined variations of a given glyph, applied on a glyph-by-glyph
>basis to the formatted text of the GX Layout shape. The resultant
>hybrid glyph info is almost certainly stored as bitmaps within
>the layout shape. While you could create a new PS font for each
>style-run that uses typefaces in the layout shape, that would be
>a bit time-consuming, I suspect, although it might save space in
>the long run if a single style-run were used for every glyph.
>
	You are making wild assumptions on how GX is implementing its 
workings, absolutely NONE of which has any basis of how they actually 
decide to position the various components..

>Then there's the issue of constantly changing faces, fonts,
>languages, sytles,  etc. In the most pathological case, that info
>could change with every glyph, making the communications latency
>a major issue instead of a minor one.
>

	No it doesn't....   To position the glyphs does NOT 
necessarily require round trips to the windowserver... 


	
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Dual dev 3.3 & 4.1
Followup-To: poster
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 20:38:18 -0700
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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Has anyone here setup a dual-developer system where they can develop 3.3 &
4.1?

I used the 'dual developer' setup by Christian Starkjohann
 but it didn't seem to quite work -- under 3.3 I
get weird message that Christian thought might indicate cc thought it was
being debugged rather than used as a compiler...

Next token is 59 (';')
Reducing via rule 162 (line 998),  -> maybe_attribute
state stack now 0 1 3 29 73 190 321 304 324
Entering state 444
Next token is 59 (';')
Reducing via rule 158 (line 975), declarator maybeasm maybe_attribute  ->
initdcl
state stack now 0 1 3 29 73 190 321
Entering state 442
Reducing via rule 151 (line 948), initdecls ',' initdcl  -> initdecls
state stack now 0 1 3 29 73
Entering state 190
Next token is 59 (';')
Shifting token 59 (';'), Entering state 320
Reducing via rule 13 (line 274), typed_declspecs setspecs initdecls ';'
-> datadef
state stack now 0 1 3
Entering state 26


and they just go on and on and on.... 

I am also getting weird files such as these:

asroot.c.combine
asroot.c.cse
asroot.c.cse2
asroot.c.dbr
asroot.c.flow
asroot.c.fppc
asroot.c.greg
asroot.c.jump
asroot.c.jump2
asroot.c.loop
asroot.c.lreg
asroot.c.rtl
asroot.c.sched
asroot.c.sched2
asroot.c.stack

Compiling under 4.1 works fine....

Anyone got a good guess?

Replies via email especially appreciated, will post solution once I figure
it out (with attribs to those who guide the process, of course)

TjL

-- 
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/ 
"The best things in life are made into inferior 
 versions and bundled with the latest Microsoft systems"
NS/OS users: My 'other sites' page has been entirely reworked




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From: leonvs@occam.com (Leon von Stauber)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Books?
Date: 2 Jun 1997 05:22:11 GMT
Organization: Occam's Razor
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In  "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
>
>  Can anyone recommend some good Objective C and OpenStep programming
>books? I couldn't find any at the Addison Wesley web site, but I would like
>books of their quality (It's gotten to the point where I really don't trust
>anyone but AW).

An excellent place to start is

	http://www.stepwise.com/Resources/Books/

>  I would like an Objective C programming language reference book.

Good luck. The only dedicated Obj-C book I've used is one by Pinson &
Weiner (published by Addison/Wesley), but I wouldn't recommend it.

____________________________________________________________________
Leon von Stauber			http://www.occam.com/leonvs/
Occam's Razor, Game Designer			
PSW Technologies, System Administrator		
MIDS, Web Developer				
"We have not come to save you, but you will not die in vain!"

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From: rex@mit.edu (Eric King)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 00:37:44 -0500
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In article <5mndjq$l7d$1@news.digifix.com>, sanguish@digifix.com (Scott
Anguish) wrote:

)        Then again, Mac developers who are going to deploy on Rhapsody 
)are likely busy learning the system and designing killer apps instead 
)of obsessing on writing APIs around a dead imaging system.

   Suppose a developer wants to create a killer multimedia app for
Rhapsody. Obviously they should consider QTML, but chances are Apple's
going to be providing a different (and probably much cleaner) OO interface
to Quicktime 3.0 for Rhapsody. Sure they could rough out the interface
with the existing OpenStep tools, but without QTML, it's going to be hard
to proceed at the moment.
   The situation worsens if the developer wants to use QT 3.0's nifty new
vector animation track. It supports antialiasing, transparency, and other
neat stuff but requires its data to be in a certain format. Unfortunately,
popular graphics apps like Illustrator and Freehand don't currently
support this format and no announcements have been made as to whether
they'll support it in the future; its quite a bit removed from their own
PS-based formats. The 'preferred' way of producing vector shapes in this
format is by using a translator for shapes in that accursed GX format.
Furthermore there isn't an API for creating or manipulating these shapes
either. Just the data format. 
   Since, in your words, GX is 'Dead,' how is a developer supposed to
create a killer app using this latest bit of nifty Apple tech?  I'm sure
there are all sorts of nifty 'killer' apps that could be made with this
system. Ranging from low-bandwidth Web page animators to  After
Effects-like compositing apps to games. There's a lot of potential here.  
   Unfortunately, DPS and OpenStep are amazingly useless in this instance.
It's *far* easier to convert a gx-like shape to Postscript than the other
way around. Further there isn't a high-level 2D graphics framework in
OpenStep. There isn't even the simple  abstraction of a shape. Since GX
graphics isn't being integrated and apparently neither are the Taligent
classes (though they're now going to be included with Java) an app
developer is faced with the rather daunting task of rolling their own
graphics library. That's a few months of extra coding and debugging which
could otherwise be spent adding more features or shortening the time until
release. 
   If a developer wants to develop an insanely great graphics app for
Rhapsody, they're probably going to have to wait a while. There's not
enough to work with at the moment. 

)        Yes.  GX is Dead.  

   Ironically, the only apps that have announced support for Quicktime's
new vector media layer are dependent on GX Graphics. I guess other
developers shouldn't bother trying to support the new API because one of
the best tools available for working with it is 'Dead' How long until
Apple develops something to fill the void left by GX Graphics? 1 year? 2?
3?

)        Its unlikely that many additional developers are going to be 
)creating frameworks for a rarely installed graphics sub-system that is 
)DEAD.

    The beauty of GX, is that to do what Lawson asked wouldn't require
*many* only a handful working part time. (And there are certainly more
than a handful hanging out on the gxlist) Apple's done the vast majority
of work that needs to be done already. If you consider the Taligent's
stuff, Apple's already written a better system than what they're planning
for Rhapsody. Personally, I think it's very telling that Sun, a long-time
OpenStep and DPS proponent chose to license Taligent's 2D Graphics and
Text frameworks for Java. I guess they felt that their OpenStep
implementation and the PS-like Bravo code from Adobe didn't contribute
enough functionality in those areas.

-Eric
-- 
Excerpt from Marianne Moore's 'The Pangolin'
This near artichoke with head and legs and grit-equipped gizzard,
the night miniature artist engineer is, yes, Leonardo da Vinci's replica-
impressive animal and toiler for whom we seldom hear.
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 00:41:00 -0700
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Scott Anguish  said:

> 
> 	FreeHand.. Illustrator... PageMaker... PhotoShop... 
> 
> 	Canvas.... PowerCadd... 
> 
> 	All best of breed apps, the first four are MUST HAVE apps for 
> DTP... none require GX.  The list of high-quality visual apps that 
> DON'T use GX is long and distinguished...
> 
> 	That doesn't mean the others aren't good apps, but it does 
> mean that the Mac can succeed without GX...

I understand that Jobs suggested that Adobe's lack of commitment to
Rhapsody was a "3rd party opportunity." If GX *facilitates* the creation of
such apps (and it does), wouldn't it make sense for Apple to put a LEETLE
more work into a retained mode engine for Rhapsody (not to mention MacOS)?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO GX-TALK?
---------------------------------

To subscribe to GX-TALK proceed as follows:

     Send E-mail to:

           

     with anything in the subject line and the following command as the
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 00:43:01 -0700
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Scott Anguish  said:

> 
> >Then there's the issue of constantly changing faces, fonts,
> >languages, sytles,  etc. In the most pathological case, that info
> >could change with every glyph, making the communications latency
> >a major issue instead of a minor one.
> >
> 
> 	No it doesn't....   To position the glyphs does NOT 
> necessarily require round trips to the windowserver... 

But if the one-way trip is made many, MANY times in a document, as can
happen with multi-lingual, multi-etc text, then even that "trivial"
optimization issue becomes less-than-trivial.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguishable from technology
-my corollary to Clarke's Law 
(AFAIK Mercedes Lackey got it from me at a World Fantasy Convention)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 10:22:32 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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On 06/02/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish  said:
>> 	FreeHand.. Illustrator... PageMaker... PhotoShop... 
>> 
>> 	All best of breed apps, the first four are MUST HAVE apps for 
>> DTP... none require GX.  The list of high-quality visual apps that 
>> DON'T use GX is long and distinguished...
>> 
>I understand that Jobs suggested that Adobe's lack of commitment to
>Rhapsody was a "3rd party opportunity." If GX *facilitates* the creation of
>such apps (and it does)
>
Maybe it doesn't, or isn't necessary on OpenStep, cf

	Create... PasteUp... TIFFany...

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Books?
Date: 2 Jun 1997 13:01:37 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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On 06/02/97, "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
>
>  Can anyone recommend some good Objective C and OpenStep programming
>books?
>
Others have already given places to look; I'd just like to put in a word for 
NeXT's documentation, which is freely available (online at least, you could 
also buy hard copy, cf www.next.com) and *very* good.  Read through that 
first before going to the bookshop -- the other references available are 
probably not quite what you want as a "beginner".

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSTabView?
Date: 2 Jun 97 14:41:51 GMT
Organization: Lysis S.A.
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In  Kenneth H. 
Wieschhoff wrote:
> Is there a tabbed view of some sort available?
> 
> ->Ken
> 

I made a brand new version, following the work done in the MiscKit. I've sent 
it to misckit, but it seems it will not appear in the next release. I will 
resend it to Don.
If you want the new palette, send me an email.

Stephane

--

"L'ordinateur n'a pas l'intelligence qu'on lui prete, mais celle qu'on lui 
donne."

Stephane Corthesy
Lysis S.A.
Rue des Cotes de Montbenon 8
CH-1003 Lausanne
Switzerland
Tel. +41.21.312.91.91          Fax +41.21.312.93.43
E-mail: stephane@lysis.ch (NeXTMail welcome)

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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 15:30:35 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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Scott Anguish writes
> Note that I've adjusted the followups to remove the next..programmer 
> group.  Its safe to assume that they don't want to hear more of 
> Lawson's GX rant....

Sorry Scott, I restored it because I'm about to make a programming point.

The One Whose Name I Cannot Type wrote:
> >Then there's the issue of constantly changing faces, fonts,
> >languages, sytles,  etc. In the most pathological case, that info
> >could change with every glyph, making the communications latency
> >a major issue instead of a minor one.

and Scott replied:
> 	No it doesn't....   To position the glyphs does NOT 
> necessarily require round trips to the windowserver... 

You can take out the "necessarily", because it just DOESN'T. Font info 
is cached locally in the AppKit, so determining character bounding boxes, 
glyph advancement, and kerning adjustments does NOT ping the windowserver 
during the course of text layout. To draw, you moveto a starting location, 
then just send a succession of xyshow operators, with setcolor or setfont 
operations mixed in when some characteristic of the run changes. None of 
these operations require a round trip.

I mention xyshow because it raises an interesting point that has been 
overlooked by the Agent Provocateur. PostScript is entirely neutral on 
the topic of text direction. EVERY text handling operation accepts and/or 
returns x AND y offsets, which may be position or negative. As far as PS 
is concerned, text may run in ANY direction, even diagonally! From the 
standpoint of font metrics, when you ask how far the current point moves 
for a given glyph, Western fonts return positive x's and 0 y's. Hebrew 
fonts return negative x's. Chinese fonts return 0 x's, but positive y's.

What's important is whether a particular text engine is prepared to adjust 
for these factors, and can translate other paragraph layout attributes --  
like tracking and inter-line spacing -- for reasonable usage in alternate 
geometries. But now we're into the domain of "did the author care about 
non-Western cases". It has NOTHING to do with PostScript itself.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Date: 2 Jun 97 14:49:01 -0400
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  I understand that we don't receive support for our Rhapsody cd's. Can you
forward this to the rhapsody evangelist if you can't help me?

  I've been trying to get WebObjects (which I received at WWDC) running.
However, it appears that some libraries aren't installed. I've reinstalled
webobjects, openstep user, and openstep developer and the libraries still
aren't present. Here's the errors in console that I get:

Software Version OPENSTEP 4.2 for Mach (Lantern5V)
probing for DOS
dyld: /NextDeveloper/Apps/WebObjectsBuilder.app/WebObjectsBulder can't open
the library: /NextLibrary/Frameworks/EOAccess.framework/Versions/B/EOAccess
 (No such file or directory. errno = 2)
dyld: /NextDeveloper/Apps/WebObjectsBuilder.app/WebObjectsBulder can't open
the library: /NextLibrary/Frameworks/EOAccess.framework/Versions/B/EOAccess
 (No such file or directory. errno = 2)
dyld: /NextDeveloper/Apps/WebObjectsBuilder.app/WebObjectsBulder can't open
the library: /NextLibrary/Frameworks/EOAccess.framework/Versions/B/EOAccess
 (No such file or directory. errno = 2)
dyld: /NextDeveloper/Apps/WebObjectsBuilder.app/WebObjectsBulder can't open
the library: /NextLibrary/Frameworks/EOAccess.framework/Versions/B/EOAccess
 (No such file or directory. errno = 2)

  I have no directory named 'EOAccess.framework'. Where should this have
been installed from?

thanks,
rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: bettis@inetnebr.com (Mr. Jeremy Bettis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: 2 Jun 1997 14:19:52 -0500
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>On 05/28/97, Mr. Jeremy Bettis wrote:
>>sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) writes:
>>>	Its important to note also that when Rhapsody ships the 
>>>Runtime costs drop to ZERO.
>>
>>On WinNT?   Deploying  a product on Rapsody is going to be just
>>as hard as NeXTSTEP was.  No one will want it unless they can run
>>all of their favorite Winders programs on the same computer.
>>

>	I question this assertion...  but I believe this is only made 
>because you don't understand what the Runtime is...
This may only be an issue of nominclature, but I do understand what the
runtime is. I am not sure I understand what Rapsody is.

Correct me if this is wrong.
OpenStep Enterprise is a runtime/development kit under Windows NT.
Rapsody is an operating system that will run on PowerPC and i386 computers,
be based on some MACH/BSD 4.something kernel.

>	First off, the Runtime costs I was discussing are for NT.
Good, I did not relalise that you were saying that the OpenStep Enterprise
runtimes go to $0 when Rapsody ships.

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 13:45:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
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mmalcolm crawford  said:
Lawson English  said:

> >I understand that Jobs suggested that Adobe's lack of commitment to
> >Rhapsody was a "3rd party opportunity." If GX *facilitates* the creation
> of
> >such apps (and it does)
> >
> Maybe it doesn't, or isn't necessary on OpenStep, cf
> 
> 	Create... PasteUp... TIFFany...
> 

Have those been reviewed in a Mac-oriented magazine or mainstream DTP
magazine? How were they received by the reviewer?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguishable from technology
-my corollary to Clarke's Law 
(AFAIK Mercedes Lackey got it from me at a World Fantasy Convention)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 21:06:51 GMT
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On 06/01/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish  said:
>
>> 
>> 	FreeHand.. Illustrator... PageMaker... PhotoShop... 
>> 
>> 	Canvas.... PowerCadd... 
>> 
>> 	All best of breed apps, the first four are MUST HAVE apps for 
>> DTP... none require GX.  The list of high-quality visual apps that 
>> DON'T use GX is long and distinguished...
>> 
>> 	That doesn't mean the others aren't good apps, but it does 
>> mean that the Mac can succeed without GX...
>
>I understand that Jobs suggested that Adobe's lack of commitment
>to Rhapsody was a "3rd party opportunity."

	Yep, thats what it said.

> If GX *facilitates* the
>creation of such apps (and it does), wouldn't it make sense for
>Apple to put a LEETLE more work into a retained mode engine for
>Rhapsody (not to mention MacOS)?


	No.  Because apps that offer that functionality can easily be 
available for Unified without it.

	GX is not required to do any of this stuff.



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 21:09:28 GMT
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On 06/02/97, Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
>Scott Anguish writes
>> Note that I've adjusted the followups to remove the 
next..programmer 
>> group.  Its safe to assume that they don't want to hear more of 
>> Lawson's GX rant....
>
>Sorry Scott, I restored it because I'm about to make a programming 
point.
>
	Fair enough...

>The One Whose Name I Cannot Type wrote:
>> >Then there's the issue of constantly changing faces, fonts,
>> >languages, sytles,  etc. In the most pathological case, that info
>> >could change with every glyph, making the communications latency
>> >a major issue instead of a minor one.
>
>and Scott replied:
>> 	No it doesn't....   To position the glyphs does NOT 
>> necessarily require round trips to the windowserver... 
>
>You can take out the "necessarily", because it just DOESN'T. Font
>info  is cached locally in the AppKit, so determining character
>bounding boxes,  glyph advancement, and kerning adjustments does
>NOT ping the windowserver  during the course of text layout. 

	Of course *I* knew this.  There is nothing to prevent some 
idiot trying to malign DPS to say that it does though...

-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 14:35:01 -0700
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Gregory H. Anderson  said:

[not necessarily requiring round-trips to DPS]

> You can take out the "necessarily", because it just DOESN'T. Font info 
> is cached locally in the AppKit, so determining character bounding boxes,

> glyph advancement, and kerning adjustments does NOT ping the
> windowserver 
> during the course of text layout. To draw, you moveto a starting
location, 
> then just send a succession of xyshow operators, with setcolor or setfont

> operations mixed in when some characteristic of the run changes. None of 
> these operations require a round trip.
> 

Never said that they did. However, they require one trip per setting. GX's
retained mode design requires one trip per LINE OF TEXT (although a font
renderer is likely called more frequently -one or more times per glyph).

> I mention xyshow because it raises an interesting point that has been 
> overlooked by the Agent Provocateur. PostScript is entirely neutral on 
> the topic of text direction. EVERY text handling operation accepts and/or

> returns x AND y offsets, which may be position or negative. As far as PS 
> is concerned, text may run in ANY direction, even diagonally!

Great, but each direction-setting requires sending that offset through the
DPS channel. 

 From the 
> standpoint of font metrics, when you ask how far the current point moves 
> for a given glyph, Western fonts return positive x's and 0 y's. Hebrew 
> fonts return negative x's. Chinese fonts return 0 x's, but positive y's.
> 

And? GX retains that info within the shape. There's a single API call to
handle ALL the kerning and so on. The communications between the font
renderer and the internal GX cache can be made as optimal as you like
because all of the info is available on a per-string basis.

> What's important is whether a particular text engine is prepared to
adjust 
> for these factors, and can translate other paragraph layout attributes --
 
> like tracking and inter-line spacing -- for reasonable usage in alternate

> geometries. But now we're into the domain of "did the author care about 
> non-Western cases". It has NOTHING to do with PostScript itself.

Excuse? What about English fonts like GX Hoefler Italic (GX fonts are going
to be useable in Rhapsody, remember?) where one of the alternative feature
sets for capital letters has a cursive "Q" with a tail that goes all the
way to the end of the next letter or where the "X" in "GX" might wrap
around an touch or almost touch the "!" to the right, FROM the right?

How does one handle the situation where you do NOT want overlapping glyphs
and are willing to sacrifice ornamentation without the need for custom
kerning?

GX allows one to set a flag to prevent ornamental glyphs from touching each
other by reverting to a less ornmented version of the glyph, when
available.

How would you handle this using PS?


This is a standard-issue Roman-script MacOS font, BTW, that ships with
every Macintosh, even if APple forgot to ship any demonstration of its
appearance. 

Sounds like a bit of round trip communication needed, even for the simple
case of deciding which alternative capital "Q" or "X" to use. And let's not
forget about contextual glyphs that might need auto-tweeking for much the
same reason. Are you going to keep a version of DPS hit-testing on the
AppKit side, now?


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From: untulis@ng.netgate.net (Jason Untulis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Date: 3 Jun 1997 00:32:53 GMT
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Lawson English (english@primenet.com) wrote:
: Lurkers can decide relative merit of posters based on relative value and
: tone of content, I think.

And by reputation as well... If you've never seen Lawson before, make sure
to visit dejanews and the semper.fi archives for some of Lawson's "tone",
since Lawson is the de facto reason why semper.fi became a moderated
list...

And Lawson, make sure you come back here in a year with your
download/usage stats for your GX XFCN. I'm sure by then they'll be in the
hundreds...
--
Jason Untulis, Ravenous Media Consumer    /\    /        untulis@netgate.net
    \  /==\  /          untulis@netcom.com
protected by spamgard[tm]              \/v2.4\/  untulis@leland.stanford.edu
PGP key soon            (C) 
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From: Dennis Munsie 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody package
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 20:12:18 -0600
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> 
> Who qualifies for this offer?
> 
> ALL levels of Macintosh Developer Program and Apple Media Program members
> worldwide:
> 
> - who have signed non-disclosure agreements
> - who did not already receive the OpenStep tools as part of their WWDC
> bundle
> 
Okay, here's my question.  What is so 'secret' about OpenStep 4 that we
need a NDA to get a hold of it?  I have no real intrest in getting a
copy of an OS that runs only on Intel, but if I did, why wouldn't
something like this be available to anyone who is on Apple's Developer
Mailings?

BTW, what exactly does the extra $100 a year get compared to the basic
mailing at $150?  All that I could find was that it would get you access
to their testing labs, access to their developer question line (with a
per question fee), and hardware discounts, something that really doesn't
help the small time developers (like me) that bought their Mac first,
and then decided to develop for it.

Dennis
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From: planetary 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Books?
Date: 2 Jun 1997 16:24:33 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900)
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In comp.sys.next.advocacy mmalcolm crawford  wrote:
: On 06/02/97, "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
: >
: >  Can anyone recommend some good Objective C and OpenStep programming
: >books?
: >
: Others have already given places to look; I'd just like to put in a word for 
: NeXT's documentation, which is freely available (online at least, you could 
: also buy hard copy, cf www.next.com) and *very* good.  Read through that 
: first before going to the bookshop -- the other references available are 
: probably not quite what you want as a "beginner".

I've written some prototype "use case" doc for EOF programming. It is
designed for beginners who are climbing the learning curve of EOF. It is
task-based and provides links to conceptual material that intermediate
programmers will wind useful.

If there's a huge demand for it, I might make the prototype available, and
even finish a chunk of it. Send me some email if you're interested.

...................kris
-- 
Kristopher Magnusson                kris@xmission.com (no NeXTmail, please)
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From: frank@ali.bc.ca (Frank Pang)
Subject: DO question: trapping client deaths
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Reply-To: frank@ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:23:09 GMT
Lines: 16

In NS3.3:
I have a program using DO where a client can send messages for the server  
to do some fetching and processing.  In the meantime, there's a  
possibility that the client dies before the server is able to send a reply  
to the client.  In this scenario, the server will try to send a message to  
a dead client, causing [myNXConnection run] to exit.  Is this an exception  
condition?  It doesn't seem to raise exceptions.  What's a clean way to  
handle client deaths / invalid connections?  And where can I get some  
sample code for this?  Thanks.

--
Frank Pang,                              frank@ali.bc.ca
Software Developer
A.L.I. Technologies Ltd.,                (NeXT & MIME accepted)
95-10551 Shellbridge Way, Richmond, BC,  279-5422 (ext. 366)
Canada V6X 2W9
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
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> >Integration with QuickTime. Etc.
> >
> 	In Rhapsody?  QuickTime 3D is expected to be one of the first 
> Apple APIs on Rhapsody...



How's that DPS interaction with QT proceeding? I can play QT movies into a
GX offscreen viewport and manipulate each frame as just another bitmap
shape, using any and all GX transparency, clipping and 3D effects, before
sending it onscreen.


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From: beauvois@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Strangeness...
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 02:31:11 -0500
Organization: University of Tennessee
Lines: 99
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I'm having a real bad day with this one.

It deals with this statement:

   if (dictionary2) [dictionary2 release];

The original code, up to this point:

- (NSMutableDictionary *)createDictionaryForView:(id)aView 
hasSubviews:(BOOL)sub
{
   NSMutableDictionary *dictionary2;
   NSString *aString2;
   NSMutableArray *newArray4;

   if (dictionary2) [dictionary2 release];

...
}

The error from the debugger is as follows:

-[testView createDictionaryForView:hasSubviews:] (self=0xfb608, 
_cmd=0x8c92, aView=0xf74e8, sub=1 '\001') at testView.m:279
Program generated(1): Memory access exception on address 0x1 (protection 
failure).
0x50069c8 in objc_msgSend ()

The testView class is a subclass of  View, and "dictionary2" is a pointer to an 
as of yet unallocated NSMutableDictionary. The compiler gives me the 
following list of warnings, one of which deals with the above "dictionary2" :

testView.m: In method `windowSubviews:'
testView.m:48: warning: `swapArray' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m: In method `viewSubviews:forDictionary:andArray:'
testView.m:136: warning: `moreSubs' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m:138: warning: `refer' may be used uninitialized in this function
testView.m:139: warning: `subs2' may be used uninitialized in this function
testView.m:140: warning: `newArray2' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m:140: warning: `swapArray2' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m:141: warning: `newDictionary' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m:142: warning: `loopFlag' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m: In method `createDictionaryForView:hasSubviews:'
testView.m:272: warning: `dictionary2' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m: In method `createMutableArrayCase:'
testView.m:302: warning: `newArray2' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m: In method `shadowView:'
testView.m:368: warning: `ref' may be used uninitialized in this function
testView.m:370: warning: `previousArray2' may be used uninitialized in this 
function
testView.m:370: warning: `newArray3' may be used uninitialized in this 
function


(btw, NONE of these are global; All are defined within actual methods. )

For the record, here are their types. Note that not all are objects (see 
loopFlag), yet the warning is the same for each:

swapArray  (NSMutableArray *)
moreSubs  (List *)
refer (NSString *)
subs2  (NSNumber *)
newArray2 (NSMutableArray *)
swapArray (NSMutableArray *)
newDictionary (NSMutableDictionary *)
loopFlag (BOOL)
dictionary2 (NSMutableDictionary *)
newArray2 (NSMutableArray *)
ref (NSString *)
previousArray2 (NSMutableArray *)
newArray3 (NSMutableArray *)

Also, the compiler seems to discriminate without symmetry: Some of the 
above warnings are called while several other variables are declared on the 
same line as the one being cited. There are also a great many variables 
(objects included) that it doesn't complain about, and the above list includes 
only those w/warnings. I don't know if I compiled using optimization (I'll 
check - I used whatever PB defaults to ), but even so - why wouldn't ALL 
uninitialized vars be flagged then ?

I guess this boils down to two problems, both of which I am clueless about. 
Is there some connection between the two ? Has anyone generated this same 
error ?

Please help !


Regards --

CB
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 3 Jun 1997 03:50:25 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 06/02/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>Scott Anguish  said:
>Lawson English  said:
>
>> > If GX *facilitates* the
>> >creation of such apps (and it does), wouldn't it make sense for
>> >Apple to put a LEETLE more work into a retained mode engine for
>> >Rhapsody (not to mention MacOS)?
>> 
>> 
>> 	No.  Because apps that offer that functionality can easily be 
>> available for Unified without it.
>> 
>> 	GX is not required to do any of this stuff.
>
>Never said that it was. Nor is DPS. Nor is anything more powerful 
than
>SMallTalk's Pen class.
>
>The question is time-to-market for such apps.
>

	Yes it is.... Including the OS... Attempting to integrate a GX 
or Taligent imaging model would delay the OS.  

	I don't hold any of your delusions that GX makes 
time-to-market for Apps that much quicker.  If it did, there would 
have been better adoption on the Mac OS to date.



>GX provides functionality that DPS + AppKit doesn't and won't for 
quite
>some time.
>

	That is not something thats worthy of debate at this point.  
GX isn't well adopted on MacOS.  That isn't changing.  

>E.G. full implementation of GX Typography.

>Full implementation of GX
>Printing. 

	Which gives the user what in practical terms?

>Full implementation of GX transparency. 3D perspective.

	Yeah... gotta have that 3D perspective in the imaging model.  
Geez Lawson... thats just foolish.

>Integration with QuickTime. Etc.
>
	In Rhapsody?  QuickTime 3D is expected to be one of the first 
Apple APIs on Rhapsody...



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: 2 Jun 1997 13:04:37 GMT
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> >
> 
> 	Its important to note also that when Rhapsody ships the 
> Runtime costs drop to ZERO.
> 

Why don't they drop the runtime costs to ZERO right now? I've got software to 
ship for 4.2 NT and that would certainly help.

Also, how are they going to handle Display PostScript? I believe they 
currently pay Adobe a license fee.

Just curious if anyone has some info about these things.

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
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Scott Anguish  said:
Lawson English  said:

> > If GX *facilitates* the
> >creation of such apps (and it does), wouldn't it make sense for
> >Apple to put a LEETLE more work into a retained mode engine for
> >Rhapsody (not to mention MacOS)?
> 
> 
> 	No.  Because apps that offer that functionality can easily be 
> available for Unified without it.
> 
> 	GX is not required to do any of this stuff.

Never said that it was. Nor is DPS. Nor is anything more powerful than
SMallTalk's Pen class.

The question is time-to-market for such apps.

GX provides functionality that DPS + AppKit doesn't and won't for quite
some time.

E.G. full implementation of GX Typography. Full implementation of GX
Printing. Full implementation of GX transparency. 3D perspective.
Integration with QuickTime. Etc.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 15:27:01 -0700
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Those whose named won't be mentioned because that's what they called me,
said:

> >
> >You can take out the "necessarily", because it just DOESN'T. Font
> >info  is cached locally in the AppKit, so determining character
> >bounding boxes,  glyph advancement, and kerning adjustments does
> >NOT ping the windowserver  during the course of text layout. 
> 
> 	Of course *I* knew this.  There is nothing to prevent some 
> idiot trying to malign DPS to say that it does though...

But as I pointed out, GX typography includes such complicated glyphs that
hit-testing may be required to decide which version of a glyph to use.

Idiots (whose names won't be mentioned) that don't bother to read the f-ing
manual when debating topics that they know nothing about generally make
even more mistakes than those (whose names won't be mentioned) that DO
bother to read the manual, but merely misunderstood those big two- and
three-syllable words...

I mean, there are *illustrations* available in HTML format online that
demonstrate this graphically.

One need not be able to read -only observe that a version of a glyph might
overlap with another in many common circumstances.

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From: dental@precipice.com (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Date: 2 Jun 1997 22:49:52 GMT
Organization: Dental Records (R)
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In  "Robert A. Decker" wrote:

>   I've been trying to get WebObjects (which I received at WWDC) running.
> However, it appears that some libraries aren't installed. I've reinstalled
> webobjects, openstep user, and openstep developer and the libraries still
> aren't present. Here's the errors in console that I get:
> 
> Software Version OPENSTEP 4.2 for Mach (Lantern5V)
> probing for DOS
> dyld: /NextDeveloper/Apps/WebObjectsBuilder.app/WebObjectsBulder can't open
> the library: /NextLibrary/Frameworks/EOAccess.framework/Versions/B/EOAccess
>  (No such file or directory. errno = 2)
> 
>   I have no directory named 'EOAccess.framework'. Where should this have
> been installed from?
> 
> thanks,
> rob
> 

you'll likely need to install EOF in addition to the webobjects, openstep 
user, and openstep developer you have now.



--

Rick Sanford

Dental Records(R)
dental@precipice.com    NeXTMAIL welcome
http://www.dentalrecords.com
					
	

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 2 Jun 1997 22:52:18 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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On 06/03/97, "Lawson English" wrote:

>GX provides functionality that DPS + AppKit doesn't and won't for quite
>some time.
>
Not on Rhapsody.

>E.G. full implementation of GX Typography. Full implementation of GX
>Printing. Full implementation of GX transparency. 3D perspective.
>Integration with QuickTime. Etc.
>

With the exception of typography, which we are told is to be folded into 
Rahpsody anyway, I'm not convinced that any of these features is essential 
to a good word processor capable of multi-language support.  YMMV.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: dental@precipice.com (Rick Sanford)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Books?
Date: 2 Jun 1997 23:10:25 GMT
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In <5mtla3$go8$2@hackberry.zilker.net> Leon von Stauber wrote:
> In  "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
> >

> >  I would like an Objective C programming language reference book.
> 
> Good luck. The only dedicated Obj-C book I've used is one by Pinson &
> Weiner (published by Addison/Wesley), but I wouldn't recommend it.
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Leon von Stauber
> 

yeah, did anyone actualy build the Swamp Runner application? I've never seen 
it anywhere and I sure couldn't finish it...
--

Rick Sanford

Dental Records(R)
dental@precipice.com    NeXTMAIL welcome
http://www.dentalrecords.com
					










	

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From: John Kuszewski 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: widgets for visual pipes?
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 04:45:13 -0400
Organization: Nat'l Insts of Health
Lines: 54
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Hi,

I seem to remember an old NeXTSTEP program that
let users build C-shell scripts visually.  IIRC,
it let you draw something that looked like

   +-------------+     +-------------+
   |    ls -l    |     |  cat bar    |
   +-------------+     +-------------+
          |                 |
          |    -------------+
          |    |
   +-------------+
   |    cat      |
   +-------------+
          |
          |
          |
   +-------------+
   |   grep foo  |
   +-------------+
          |
          |
          |
   +-------------------+
   | nawk -f linecount |
   +-------------------+
 
My question is actually about the widgets used to 
create this sort of interface.  Could anyone describe
how painful this sort of thing is to build in 
NeXTSTEP/Rhapsody?  I'd like to build a program 
that uses a similar "visual" approach to allow 
nontechnical users to build simple database queries.

Thanks for any advice/observations y'all can 
offer me!

-- 
                                   _____________
                                   |        ___/_
                                   |        |/  /
                                   --  /\  //  /--
                                   ||  ||  /  /||
                                   ||  || /  / ||
                                   ||  ||/  /  ||
John Kuszewski                     ||  |/  /|  ||      
johnk@spasm.niddk.nih.gov          ||  /  /||  ||
                                   \/ /  / ||  \/
that's MISTER protein G to you!     |/__/|      |
                                      /_________|

My parents went to Zaire and all I got 
was this lousy retrovirus.
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From: Bob Hathaway 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.oberon,comp.object.logic,comp.lang.scheme,comp.lang.beta
Subject: Object Magazine Online - New June Issue - FREE NEW ONLINE WEB JOURNAL
Followup-To: comp.object
Date: 2 Jun 1997 21:31:23 -0500
Organization: Object Magazine Online
Lines: 85
Message-ID: <5mvvlr$ngk@shoga.wwa.com>
Reply-To: Bob Hathaway 
NNTP-Posting-Host: shoga.wwa.com
Summary: Object Magazine Online - FREE NEW WEB JOURNAL
Keywords: Free WWW OO Object-Oriented Journal
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:24726 comp.lang.oberon:8421 comp.object.logic:1160 comp.lang.scheme:15668 comp.lang.beta:1109

                       OBJECT MAGAZINE ONLINE
                       ======================
               OBJECT MAGAZINE ONLINE HYPERTEXT JOURNAL             
                FREE NEW MONTHLY OBJECT-ORIENTED FORUM
                      FORMERLY: OBJECT CURRENTS

    Location:        http://www.sigs.com/omo
      Formerly:        http://www.sigs.com/objectcurrents (Archive Site)
    Editor-In-Chief: Bob Hathaway 
    Issues:          January 1996 (OCJ) thru May 1997
    New Issue:       June 1 (Now Available)
    Next Issue:      July 1
    Publisher:       SIGS: Web Apps (NEW), Object Magazine, C++ Report,
                           JOOP/ROAD, Object Expert, Smalltalk Report,
                           X Journal, Java Report, Object Buyer's Guide, ...
                           CONFERENCES: Object Expo/Java Expo/Web Apps
                           Solutions, C++ World, OOP, Smalltalk Solutions, ...

This is an invitation to join us at Object Magazine Online and view, engage
in, and participate in the latest in object-oriented technology using the
newest in information technology, the WWW.  Object Magazine Online is a
complete new free monthly journal with original Feature Articles, Columns,
and Departments along with several *new* articles from Object Magazine and
the various SIGS journals.

  OBJECT MAGAZINE ONLINE ARTICLES

We are accepting original Articles to present in OMO which include honorarium
and the opportunity to publish.

Our World Class Columnists include:
  Watts Humphrey:         SEI Process Director, CMM & PSP Inventor
  Bertrand Meyer:         Eiffel, OO Design and Software Engineering
  Francois Bancilhon:     President, O2 Technology, Leading ODBMS Expert
  Michael Jesse Chonoles: Chief of Methodology, Advanced Concepts Center of
                          Lockheed Martin
  David Shang:            OO Programming Language Designer, Motorola Labs
  Michael Spertus:        President, Geodesic Systems, Program Automation
  Prof. Brain Henderson-Sellers: Director, Centre for Object Technology
                         Applications and Research (Victoria)
  Ian Mitchell:		 Vigor Technology.  Heads Rapid Prototyping Laboratory:
		   http://osiris.sund.ac.uk/research/canopus/mitchell/rpl.html
  
Interviews (including OCJ):
  January:  Grady Booch
  February: James Rumbaugh
  March:    Ivar Jacobson  (Part I)  - Get the latest on the UML
  June:     Steve Mellor,  Plus Jacobson (Part II)
  Soon:     Sally Shlaer

Newsgroup Dialog:  - Monthly "Best Thread" from comp.object
  Robert Martin, Tim Ottinger

Week in OT: Jane Grau  - Late breaking news on object technology
  4 times/month

Feature Articles:
  Too many to repeat here, OCJ has presented many original features on object
  technology and OMO continues to present many more.
  
Best new articles every month from SIGS Journals including Web Apps, Object
Magazine, C++ Report, JOOP/ROAD, Object Expert, Smalltalk Report, X Journal,
Java Report, Object Buyer's Guide, and etc.

Thanks to our readership for patronage, praise, and feedback.  Please keep
visiting or give us a try soon.  Please also feel free to inform friends and
colleagues of this free new medium.

From the OCJ Guidelines:

  Object Currents' unique hypertext media provides for advances over earlier
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  pages, video, virtual reality and chat sessions.  While all of these may
  not have appeared in these first issues, they will appear in the future.

Check it out!

Best Regards,
Bob Hathaway

Robert John Hathaway III
Editor in Chief
Object Magazine Online
Email: bhathaway@sigs.com - Correspondence, Submissions
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody package
Date: 3 Jun 1997 04:04:55 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 44
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On 06/02/97, Dennis Munsie wrote:
>> 
>> Who qualifies for this offer?
>> 
>> ALL levels of Macintosh Developer Program and Apple Media Program 
members
>> worldwide:
>> 
>> - who have signed non-disclosure agreements
>> - who did not already receive the OpenStep tools as part of their 
WWDC
>> bundle
>> 
>Okay, here's my question.  What is so 'secret' about OpenStep 4
>that we need a NDA to get a hold of it?  I have no real intrest
>in getting a copy of an OS that runs only on Intel, but if I did,
>why wouldn't something like this be available to anyone who is on
>Apple's Developer Mailings?
>

	You have to have signed the beta seed agreement.

	My guess is that Apple doesn't have to pay the License fees on 
beta shipped versions.

>BTW, what exactly does the extra $100 a year get compared to the
>basic mailing at $150?  All that I could find was that it would
>get you access to their testing labs, access to their developer
>question line (with a per question fee), and hardware discounts,
>something that really doesn't help the small time developers (like
>me) that bought their Mac first, and then decided to develop for
>it.
>

	From what I've read, the $250 is the lowest support level at 
this point.

	But it would get you the DR release which  the $150 apparently 
doesn't..

-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: services call from the commandline?
Date: 3 Jun 1997 10:12:57 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
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just write the commandline program yourself:

sort of pseudocode:

@implementation MiscString(PasteboardExtension)

- toPasteboard:(Pasteboard *) pboard
{	NXAtom pasteTypes[] = {NXAsciiPboardType};
	[pboard declareTypes:pasteTypes num:1 owner:NXApp];		
	[pboard  writeType: pasteTypes[0]  data:buffer length:[self length]+1];
	return self;
}
@end

void main()
{	MiscString *str=[[MiscString alloc] initString:argv[2]];
	Pasteboard *pb=[Pasteboard new];
	[str toPasteboard:pb];

	NXPerformService(argv[1],pb);
}
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From: hhoff@ragnarok.en.eunet.de.NOSPAM (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Tab to buttons?
Date: 27 May 1997 23:36:18 GMT
Organization: Far Out Labs, Inc.
Lines: 21
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(posted & mailed)

 "Robert Norman" wrote:
> I'm a WWDC convert trying to get in step with OpenStep. I'm working through
> the tutorials and making some progress however -- when I use IB to work on a
> view,  I'm having trouble controlling the tabbing.  For example, in Currency
> Converter with two selectable NSTextFields and a button, after I make the
> nextKeyView connections between the two NSTextFields, which I confirm using
> the inspector the tabbing order goes from the textFields through the button
> and back to the first TextField.  This tabbing order problem has cropped up
> in the other tutorials as well including out of order elements and -- again
> -- buttons!

This is common first-time pitfall. If the window's initialFirstResponder
outlet is not set, IB tries to outsmart you and ignores the nextKeyView
chain, using the built-in left-to-right/top-down tabbing.

Holger
--
hhoff@ragnarok.en.eunet.de.NOSPAM                   LOAD "MACH_KERNEL",8,1

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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Beginner question... Moveable text box?
Date: 3 Jun 97 10:54:00 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
Lines: 25
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  I'm just starting out and so this may be a basic question. I've done the
tutorials.

  I want to have a window that can have scrollable text boxes dropped onto
it. However, I want the scrollable text boxes to be selectable and moveable
within the window. 
  I was wondering if anyone has extended NSScrollView to give these
features (preferably with a title bar, resize handle, and button to iconize
it). Is there something else I should be looking at?

thanks,

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


sub=1 '\001') at testView.m:279
> Program generated(1): Memory access exception on address 0x1 (protection
> failure).
> 0x50069c8 in objc_msgSend ()
> 


-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com
####################################################################
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DO question: trapping client deaths
Message-ID: <339443DA.7E5@running-start.com>
From: Ralph Zazula 
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 09:18:34 -0700
Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com
References: 
Organization: Running Start, Inc.
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Hi -

You need to catch these conditions with an exception handler.  Something
like this:

- updateClients
{
	// foreach client...

	NX_DURING
	// try to update a client
	[aClient update:...];
	NX_HANDLER
	// ignore failures and catch in the 
	// invalidation notifier
	NX_ENDHANDLER
}


- senderIsInvalid:sender
{
	List *remoteList;
	int i,c;
	
	// get the list of objects from the invalid connection
	remoteList = [sender remoteObjects];
	for(i=0, c=[remoteList count]; i 
> In NS3.3:
> I have a program using DO where a client can send messages for the server
> to do some fetching and processing.  In the meantime, there's a
> possibility that the client dies before the server is able to send a reply
> to the client.  In this scenario, the server will try to send a message to
> a dead client, causing [myNXConnection run] to exit.  Is this an exception
> condition?  It doesn't seem to raise exceptions.  What's a clean way to
> handle client deaths / invalid connections?  And where can I get some
> sample code for this?  Thanks.
> 


-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com
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From: "Suhail M. Ahmed" 
Newsgroups: comp.lang.objective-c,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Books?
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 14:50:02 +0200
Organization: EUnet Belgium, Leuven, Belgium
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.objective-c:5827 comp.sys.next.programmer:24733 comp.sys.next.advocacy:70916

Hi,

Check out www.cbooks.com, they carry 13 books on NeXTSTEP.

Cheers!
Suhail

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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Date: 3 Jun 1997 03:28:01 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
Lines: 48
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In  it appeared that "Robert A. Decker" 
wrote:

>   I've been trying to get WebObjects (which I received at WWDC) running.
> However, it appears that some libraries aren't installed. I've reinstalled
> webobjects, openstep user, and openstep developer and the libraries still
> aren't present. Here's the errors in console that I get:
> 
> Software Version OPENSTEP 4.2 for Mach (Lantern5V)
> probing for DOS
> dyld: /NextDeveloper/Apps/WebObjectsBuilder.app/WebObjectsBulder can't open
> the library: /NextLibrary/Frameworks/EOAccess.framework/Versions/B/EOAccess
>  (No such file or directory. errno = 2)

I have not seen this problem, but I also have not seen 4.2 PR2 (which I think 
is the version from WWDC).

I do know that for the developer tools, the installation order is somewhat 
important (doh!) on some of the developer software.  If you install the 
developer packages out-of-order, missing files might be one result 
(incompatible files might be another).

In general, for the developer tools, the install order is:

tools
libs
docs  (docs are not really so order dependant, but that's the way it's listed 
on the little install guide that comes with the CD)

I think the way the EOF stuff is packaged is being changed, too, so I'm not 
sure where you would expect these specific libraries to come from in 4.2...   
in the older 4.1 release, the EO stuff was part of a separate product, 
"Enterprise Object Framework" which came on a separate CD.  The EOF CD had 
user & developer components.  You may or may not need both for Web Objects 
development (i'd guess you need both).  

If you have an EOF CD-ROM in your kit, install that software and your problem 
will be fixed.  If you don't, then maybe someone else with this kit will know 
if the EOF bits are now (4.2 release) located  on the user/devel cds, or if 
perhaps your kit was missing the EOF cd.

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep  MachOS
PLATINUM technology, inc.          | \ o.O|   Objective-C
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=     the Dock
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: fox@jeans.fokus.gmd.de (Oliver Fox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: EOModeler to Database
Date: 3 Jun 1997 13:31:44 GMT
Organization: GMD-FOKUS
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <5n16c0$6ru@stern.fokus.gmd.de>
NNTP-Posting-Host: jeans.fokus.gmd.de


I have EOF and a sybase database-server running on my black next
so far - so good

now I want to access to the sybase database-server from another  
next-machine in the network (for example: make a new EOModel from an  
existing database with EOModeler)
HOW to do this ?

Is there a way to type in the path in the database-login-panel off the  
EOModeler ?
or another easy way to do that?

thanks

oliver
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From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: Re: Strangeness...
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:32:13 GMT
References: 
Lines: 16

In article  beauvois@usa.net  
writes:
> 
> The original code, up to this point:
> 
> - (NSMutableDictionary *)createDictionaryForView:(id)aView 
> hasSubviews:(BOOL)sub
> {
>    NSMutableDictionary *dictionary2;
>    NSString *aString2;
>    NSMutableArray *newArray4;
> 
>    if (dictionary2) [dictionary2 release];
> 
You got what you deserve. Don't expect an unallocated object to be nil.  
dictionary2 holds an invalid object address at this point.
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Date: 3 Jun 97 15:26:45 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
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  I hope I'm not breaking an NDA or anything, but we don't get support for
our Prelude stuff so I wanted to post what the problem was so others don't
go through it.

  It looks like they forgot to include the EOF stuff for Mach on Intel.
They included it for solaris and NT, but I really don't have a desire to
use NT.

  They're deciding what they'll do to fix this.

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: gutier@unixg.ubc.ca (Gerald Gutierrez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Date: 1 Jun 1997 05:21:58 GMT
Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada
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Let's see ... for someone to be able to have a look at Rapsody for "free", 
and thus potentially gain Apple many more Rhapsody supporters who may 
previously not have connections with Apple or even NeXT, that someone has 
to be already registered with Apple's Developer Program.

Either : 

1) being a member of Apple's Developer Program is free ( which I don't 
believe so ), or

2) the word "free" is being used incredibly loosely, or

3) this is one big huge lie.

: Are you a developer registered with Apple's Developer Program? Have you
: signed the Seed Agreement? If so:

: >Additional information on the WWDC Prelude to Rhapsody package may be 
: >found at

: >..html>. To request your free OpenStep tools (Part Number R0724ZA) today, 
: >contact us in one of the following ways:
: >
: >Phone
: >1-800-282-2732 Toll Free (US)
: >1-800-637-0029 Toll Free (Canada)
: >1-716-871-6555 International
: >
: >Email
: >order.adc@apple.com
: >
: >FAX
: >716-871-6511
: >

: So there... it is free!

: Mike



--

   `'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'

               Gerald Gutierrez                Computer Engineering
                                            Faculty of Applied Science
             gutier@unixg.ubc.ca          University of British Columbia
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From: michael@ninebits.com (Michael Balle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Tabview
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:20:50 +0200
Organization: Nine Bits
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Hi,

I have been playing a little bit with the Prelude to Rhapsody on Windows
NT. In the interface builder they use a tab view to move between Object
instances, Classes etc. Is this tab view available as a palette that can
be used from IB in you own interface?

regards
Michael
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From: sboker@calliope.psych.nd.edu (Steven M. Boker)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Serial port sgtty line control?
Date: 3 Jun 1997 20:33:51 GMT
Organization: University of Notre Dame
Lines: 40
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NNTP-Posting-Host: clio.psych.nd.edu


I've a problem in serial communications.  I'm running OpenStep 4.0
on a Pentium 166 with an Intel ATX style motherboard.  I'm using
the Serial Port 4.00 and TTY Port Server 4.00 drivers.

I'm trying to communicate with a slightly idiosyncratic serial
device -- a Flock of Birds magnetic coil position tracker.  I've
gotten this device to respond by booting to DOS and using RTS/CTS
hardware flow control.  I can also talk to the device using OpenStep
and XON/XOFF handshaking using the ttyda device.  But I'm having
trouble getting it to use RTS/CTS hardware flow control in OpenStep
with ttydfa.

The trouble is that if RTS is set while DTR is clear, the external
device holds itself in a reset/standby mode.  OS holds DTR clear
as a default.  As soon as I open the device,  RTS is set and DTR
is clear and the external device goes into standby.  I can set DTR
with ioctl(comhandle,TIOCSDTR,NULL), but the device stays in standby
waiting for RTS to be cleared.  Anyone know how to clear RTS?

The following _almost_ works.  I'm viewing the results using a
breakout box to make sure I know what the signals are actually
doing.  This one has been driving me nuts!

#define OPENPARAMS O_RDWR 
char * sys_com_port[2] ={"/dev/ttyfa","/dev/ttyfb"};

   comport = 1;
   comhandle = open(sys_com_port[comport], OPENPARAMS);
   ioctl(comhandle,TIOCSDTR,NULL);

Thanks for any helping hands!

Steve

-- 
 Dr. Steven M. Boker                             219-631-4941 (voice)    
 sboker@nd.edu                                   219-631-8883 (fax)
 http://www.nd.edu/~sboker/                      219-257-2956 (home)
 Dept. of Psychology, University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, IN 46556
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Tabview
Date: 3 Jun 1997 20:31:09 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 06/03/97, Michael Balle wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have been playing a little bit with the Prelude to Rhapsody on 
Windows
>NT. In the interface builder they use a tab view to move between 
Object
>instances, Classes etc. Is this tab view available as a palette that 
can
>be used from IB in you own interface?
>


	Currently... no.

	It will be in DR and Rhapsody, along with the Outline view 
that is used in IB (or something like it)




-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OS Enterprise for NT?
Date: 3 Jun 1997 20:29:32 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 06/02/97, Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com wrote:
>sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>> >
>> 
>> 	Its important to note also that when Rhapsody ships the 
>> Runtime costs drop to ZERO.
>> 
>
>Why don't they drop the runtime costs to ZERO right now? I've got
>software to  ship for 4.2 NT and that would certainly help.
>

	Presumably because they can't rework those license agreements.

>Also, how are they going to handle Display PostScript? I believe
>they  currently pay Adobe a license fee.
>
>Just curious if anyone has some info about these things.
>

	I doubt we'll ever know the details of the deal Adobe made 
with Apple... 




-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Tabview
Date: 3 Jun 1997 21:21:57 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> On 06/03/97, Michael Balle wrote:
> > I have been playing a little bit with the Prelude to Rhapsody
> > on Windows NT. In the interface builder they use a tab view to
> > move between Object instances, Classes etc. Is this tab view
> > available as a palette that can be used from IB in you own
> > interface?
> 
> 	Currently... no.
> 
> 	It will be in DR and Rhapsody, along with the Outline view 
> that is used in IB (or something like it)

Well, the OPENSTEP MiscKit has some early cuts at it in the Temp area.  I 
plan to have this object moved into the kit proper for the next release.  The 
gotcha right now is that I have three(!) different versions of it, and I need 
to try and merge them into a superset without making the API ugly...

There is a version in the NEXTSTEP MiscKit which works fine--for NEXTSTEP 
apps, anyway.  It also has the outline view (more or less), which you can 
connect to a MiscTree and bingo...

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: mann@nautilus.weblab.rest.tasc.com (John Mann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Date: 3 Jun 1997 22:17:14 GMT
Organization: TASC
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I'm having the same problem, except I already own a developer version of  
OPENSTEP with EOF.

EOF for Mach was not distributed with the WWDC Prelude to Rhapsody.  It is  
included only in the OPENSTEP Enterprise CD.  If you want to use things  
like  
the report Wizard in this version of WebObjects, you'll have to buy a copy  
of EOF  
(presumably version 2.0) from Apple, or convince them that it should have  
been part of the handout.

WWDC Prelude to Rhapsody.  It is  
included only in the OPENSTEP Enterprise CD.  If you want to use things  
like  
the report Wizard in this version of WebObjects, you'll have to buy a copy  
of EOF  
(presumably version 2.0) from Apple, or convince them that it should have  
been part of the handout.

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From: mann@nautilus.weblab.rest.tasc.com (John Mann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Date: 3 Jun 1997 22:16:54 GMT
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I'm having the same problem, except I already own a developer version of  
OPENSTEP with EOF.

EOF for Mach was not distributed with the WWDC Prelude to Rhapsody.  It is  
included only in the OPENSTEP Enterprise CD.  If you want to use things  
like  
the report Wizard in this version of WebObjects, you'll have to buy a copy  
of EOF  
(presumably version 2.0) from Apple, or convince them that it should have  
been part of the handout.

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From: guenther@onevision.de (Guenther Fuerthaller)
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: renoir
Message-ID: 
Sender: news@onevision.de
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Organization: OneVision Vertriebs-GmbH, Regensburg, Germany
References: 
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:41:19 GMT
Lines: 80

In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:
> Never said that they did. However, they require one trip per setting.  
GX's
> retained mode design requires one trip per LINE OF TEXT (although a font
> renderer is likely called more frequently -one or more times per glyph).
> 
> > I mention xyshow because it raises an interesting point that has been 
> > overlooked by the Agent Provocateur. PostScript is entirely neutral on 
> > the topic of text direction. EVERY text handling operation accepts  
and/or
> 
> > returns x AND y offsets, which may be position or negative. As far as  
PS 
> > is concerned, text may run in ANY direction, even diagonally!
> 
> Great, but each direction-setting requires sending that offset through  
the
> DPS channel. 

You obviously have no idea how the DPS client library works.
Let me try to give you some pointers.
First of all you finally have to realize, what has already
been mentioned by others, that the possible problems
with DPS communication are general problems of inter
process communication in a multi tasking environment.
The bad case mentioned in the documentation is a typical
bad case in IPC when two processes perform a very
synchronizing communication (A sends to B and waits for
response). However this case is rarely given when you
simply draw with DPS.
Second:
As long as you are drawing/redrawing a view content you
send ps code to something that can be thought as a pipe
(you know what a pipe is?), thus you perform something like
buffered writing to a file. Therefore multiple single operator
calls may be sent together/en block to the window server.
Third:
Additionally the Mach OS supports a feature called memory
mapping. This enables the pseudo pipe from above to avoid
copying of data during transmission to the window server.
For example on Openstep for Mach i am able to render images
of 30 MB or more using the standard image operator and
sending the image data with DPSWriteData. In contrast this
doesn't work on Openstep for NT.

> And? GX retains that info within the shape. There's a single API call to
> handle ALL the kerning and so on. The communications between the font
> renderer and the internal GX cache can be made as optimal as you like
> because all of the info is available on a per-string basis.

Are you aware of the possibilities of DPS?
The list of possible optimizations is too long and your statements
too narrow.

> Excuse? What about English fonts like GX Hoefler Italic (GX fonts are  
going
> to be useable in Rhapsody, remember?) where one of the alternative  
feature
> sets for capital letters has a cursive "Q" with a tail that goes all the
> way to the end of the next letter or where the "X" in "GX" might wrap
> around an touch or almost touch the "!" to the right, FROM the right?
> 
> How does one handle the situation where you do NOT want overlapping  
glyphs
> and are willing to sacrifice ornamentation without the need for custom
> kerning?
> 
> GX allows one to set a flag to prevent ornamental glyphs from touching  
each
> other by reverting to a less ornmented version of the glyph, when
> available.
> 
> How would you handle this using PS?

I agree that there should be an instance in Openstep that handles
such issues but i strictly disagree that this should be done by DPS.
Note that DPS is completely stupid about such issues and this is good.

Guenther
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From: "Ed Deans" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:03:19 -0700
Organization: Road Runner
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 mmalcolm crawford wrote in article <5ms72n$49$1@bignews.shef.ac.uk>...
>On 05/31/97, "Ed Deans" wrote:
>> >>Lawson English  said:
>> >>
>> >>Talk about silly questions. Rhapsody doesn't give MacOS users
>> >>ANYTHING except (maybe) an upgrade path sometime in the NeXT 18-24
>> >>months to obtain these oh-so-important buzzwords that were the
>> >>reason why they bought a Mac in the first place.
>>
>> You're pretty much right from what we know about Rhapsody.  Where's the
>> innovation that will push Rhapsody into the fore of the market's mind
so
>> Apple will survive?
>>
>Umm, was this rhetorical sarcasm?  In case it wasn't, how about:
>
>(Innovation as far as MacOS goes):

                  That's the problem: "as far as MacOS goes"...

>Preemptive multitasking; multi-threading; multi-user capability...
>
>Unified imaging model; OO development environment; unequalled
cross-platform
>compatibility...

Unified imaging model?  It remains to be seen how important this will be in
the real world.  OO development environment?  Pick one, there are plenty of
others or varied quality including Visual Studio, Visual Age and
CommonPoint.

Cross-platform unequalled? That's tough to say. Yellow Box looks like it's
only Rhapsody and Win95/NT right? There are development systems such as the
one from Star Division (http://www.stardivision.com for English; German
pages have much more info) that support more platforms. In fact, Star
Division's Office suite deploys on MacOS, NT, Win95, OS/2 and Linux. I know
that it isn't exactly equal to OpenStep but the issue is cross-platform
compatibility.

>and so on.

I'm still trying to understand how Rhapsody will draw user from MacOS &
Windows NT/98 and developers from MacOS & NT/98 as well.  Mac people see
gains but have you seen what's been talked about regarding future MacOS
versions?  We're hearing Yellow Box (partial), perhaps Mach or NuKernel,
preemptive threads, etc.  Sounds like Copland to me.  No ones going to run
to Rhapsody if they know that in a year or so longer they can get a virtual
identical user / develop experience on MacOS.

What does Rhapsody offer to NT people?  Apple not even defined what this OS
will be yet--end user? workstation? server? so developers like Netscape
aren't signing up in droves with their end-user apps.

>> > Given developers faith that Apple can and will ship a new OS
>> >before the end of the Century?
>>
>> Even on its deathbed, the worst case for Copland was a ship date before
Jan
>> 1, 2000.
>>
>Again it's not clear what you're implying here -- in case you're
suggesting
>Rhapsody won't ship until then, I'm prepared to lay a bet that it will
ship
>to the general public prior to end of 1998 (developers will get their
hands
>on it by end Q3 this year) -- and this is a conservative estimate.

I didn't imply that.  I was simply saying that Rhapsody isn't scheduled to
be any later than the last estimate for Copland.  I'm sure Rhapsody will
ship (if Apple's still in business) but I've still see ZERO evidence that
it will be anything more than a niche system.  We're only a year out from
the Unified version now.  It's about six months or less from the Premier
edition and things are still sketchy as to what this NeXT Generation
"NT-killer" will offer that will make it live up to its name.

--Ed.

>Best wishes,
>
>mmalc.
>
>--
>
> 


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Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 21:12:02 -0600
From: Tracla@aol.com
Subject: NeXT People Question
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
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Hello - my name is Tracey.. I am working with AT&T in HR as a partner.
We are looking for NeXT System Administrators..

But my question is, since this is a new software product for
me is:

Do people outside of NeXT software have these skills?
Are there any dedicated websites where we can post job opportunities
What are the salaries of people with this skill set?

Thank you for any assistance you can provide

Tracey Claybrooke
813-685-6004
Tampa, Florida

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Tabview
Date: 3 Jun 1997 22:22:04 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <5n25ec$km2$1@news.digifix.com>
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On 06/03/97, Don Yacktman wrote:
>sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
>> On 06/03/97, Michael Balle wrote:
>> > I have been playing a little bit with the Prelude to Rhapsody
>> > on Windows NT. In the interface builder they use a tab view to
>> > move between Object instances, Classes etc. Is this tab view
>> > available as a palette that can be used from IB in you own
>> > interface?
>> 
>> 	Currently... no.
>> 
>> 	It will be in DR and Rhapsody, along with the Outline view 
>> that is used in IB (or something like it)
>
>Well, the OPENSTEP MiscKit has some early cuts at it in the Temp
>area.  I  plan to have this object moved into the kit proper for
>the next release.  The  gotcha right now is that I have three(!)
>different versions of it, and I need  to try and merge them into
>a superset without making the API ugly...
>

	It sure sould be nice if someone at Apple/Next could slip us 
the API that they are going to be using....

	... compatibility with that would be cool..

>There is a version in the NEXTSTEP MiscKit which works fine--for
>NEXTSTEP  apps, anyway.  It also has the outline view (more or
>less), which you can  connect to a MiscTree and bingo...
>>


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 


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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Tabview
Date: 4 Jun 1997 05:41:53 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> On 06/03/97, Don Yacktman wrote:
> >Well, the OPENSTEP MiscKit has some early cuts at it in the Temp
> >area.  I  plan to have this object moved into the kit proper for
> >the next release.  The  gotcha right now is that I have three(!)
> >different versions of it, and I need  to try and merge them into
> >a superset without making the API ugly...
> >
> 
> 	It sure sould be nice if someone at Apple/Next could slip us 
> the API that they are going to be using....
> 
> 	... compatibility with that would be cool..

I agree.  Failing that, I may attempt a class-dump to see what the NS 4.2 API 
is and go from there.  Trouble is, I know they'll change it, so...

Any idea who I should talk to to get the API?  I suspect I could get it and 
model the MiscKit object off it if I can get in touch with the right person.

I'm an EAP, so I'll ask my contact tomorrow, but you never know how effective 
that will be...they can be pretty busy guys... :-)

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Friedrich HAEUPL 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Serial port under Rhapsody/Open/NextStep
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:05:27 -0700
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Is there a certain API for the serial interfaces under OpenStep/NextStep
and Rhapsody? Is there any sourcecode available, that shows how to
access the serial ports. With the powerful tools provided it show be
easy to write a programm that gets data via the serial ports.
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From: Friedrich HAEUPL 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Serial interface in OpenStep NextStep Rhapsody
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 13:04:48 -0700
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Is there a certain API for the serial interfaces under OpenStep/NextStep
and Rhapsody? Is there any sourcecode available, that shows how to
access the serial ports. With the powerful tools provided it show be
easy to write a programm that gets data via the serial ports.
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From: pretzl@pobox.com (Allan Peretz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:30:47 GMT
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On Mon, 02 Jun 1997 07:56:11 +1000, cstory@research.canon.com.au
wrote:

>If you're not a developer, you don't need it.  The point of the
>Prelude is to introduce developers to the tools that will be
>included in Rhapsody DR (Developer's Release).  It's to encourage
>software development for Rhapsody.  If you're not a developer, you
>don't really fit in.  Apple isn't pushing NextStep.

Excuse me!?  How do you know what I need?  I need some time to
evaluate, test, and learn this product early so I can determine how it
may benefit my clients.  As I said in my earlier post, it is clearly
in Apple's advantage to allow me this opportunity.

Allan Peretz

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From: neuss@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nospam (Christian Neuss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 4 Jun 1997 11:15:11 GMT
Organization: Technische Hochschule Darmstadt
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Gary W. Longsine (gary-nospam-@screaming.org) wrote:
> I have not seen this problem, but I also have not seen 4.2 PR2 (which I think 
> is the version from WWDC).

Same here.. but the problem is definitely the missing EOF libs.

> I think the way the EOF stuff is packaged is being changed, too, so I'm not 
> sure where you would expect these specific libraries to come from in 4.2...   
> in the older 4.1 release, the EO stuff was part of a separate product, 
> "Enterprise Object Framework" which came on a separate CD.  The EOF CD had 
> user & developer components.  You may or may not need both for Web Objects 
> development (i'd guess you need both).  

For general WebObjects programming, all you need is EOF user.
Of course, for EOF development you need the complete kit.

Regards, Chris
--
//  Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
//  http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
//  fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
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From: neuss@informatik.th-darmstadt.de.nospam (Christian Neuss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Serial port sgtty line control?
Date: 4 Jun 1997 12:14:45 GMT
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Steven M. Boker (sboker@calliope.psych.nd.edu) wrote:

> The trouble is that if RTS is set while DTR is clear, the external
> device holds itself in a reset/standby mode.  OS holds DTR clear
> as a default.  As soon as I open the device,  RTS is set and DTR
> is clear and the external device goes into standby.  I can set DTR
> with ioctl(comhandle,TIOCSDTR,NULL), but the device stays in standby
> waiting for RTS to be cleared.  Anyone know how to clear RTS?

Sorry that I can't help with the programming, I haven't programmed
the bare metal under OPENSTEP yet :-) .. but couldn't you simply wire
a cable that fakes RTS? After all, the hardware handshake is somewhat
redundant.

Rgds, Chris
--
//  Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
//  http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
//  fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Strangeness...
Date: 4 Jun 1997 04:31:07 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
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In  Gabriel Musatescu wrote:
> Don't expect an unallocated object to be nil.  

true enough when speaking of _automatic_ variables,
(those defined local to a method or block)

but just to be pedantic, it is safe to assume that instance variables
are initialized to nil - that is defined by the language.
so code in the "init" method that sets ivars to zero or nil is redundant,
unless of course you expect init to be sent more than once to the same object.

--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: mcgredo@crl.crl.com (Donald R. McGregor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: 4 Jun 1997 08:37:43 -0700
Organization: Miskatonic University Department of Classics
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In article <865389689.23631@dejanews.com>,   wrote:
>Hello - my name is Tracey.. I am working with AT&T in HR as a partner.
>We are looking for NeXT System Administrators..
>
>But my question is, since this is a new software product for
>me is:
>
>Do people outside of NeXT software have these skills?

Since NeXT is BSD Unix under the skin, anyone with a Unix
background should be able to pick it up fairly quickly. There's
some flashy NeXT sysadmin tools that make life easier, but
anyone who's competent should be able to pick that up quickly
enough. 

Rhapsody might have enough flashy sysadmin tools for a non-
unix type to get by, but that remains to be seen.

>What are the salaries of people with this skill set?

Uh, $500,000/yr. Yeah, that's the ticket. :-)

-- 
Don McGregor     | I did it for the children.
mcgredo@crl.com  | 
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From: NoSpa.Mgustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: MacOS Rumors: PowerComputing offering Developer Disounts?
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:30:06 -0500
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
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third hand anecdote of PowerCC offering a PowerCenter Pro 210 for US$1800
to a developer (they did check for developer status)

full text at this URL: ; article is dated 06/04/97

-----------

Bicycle Crash Test Dummy for Hire
gustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
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Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 11:52:27 -0600
From: Tracla@aol.com
Subject: FL/NPB/ NeXT  Systems Administrators (3) needed
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.programmer
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AT&T is seeking (3) NeXT  Systems Programmers in North Palm Beach,
Florida.

PURPOSE:

Ensure the availability of NeXT hardware and sofware services
including configuration, installation and tuning.

QUALIFICATIONS:

Bachelors degree or equivalent
6 months with NeXT specific administration
1 year with UNIX administration
Excellent project management skills

Please send resume and salary history to:

Tracey Claybrooke
Tracla@aol.com
813-685-6004  phone

Thank you

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From: riley@dellirium.uwlax.edu (David Riley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: AWT library port status?
Date: 4 Jun 1997 17:18:26 GMT
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I understand that someone is doing a native NEXTSTEP port of the Java AWT 
library.  Can anyone tell me the current status, or put me in touch with 
someone who can?

Please accept my apologies if I am asking something that is common knowledge 
to regular readers of this newgroup.

 
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
  David D. Riley, Chair                         riley@cs.uwlax.edu
  Computer Science Department              [NeXTMail or MIME okay]
  University of WI - La Crosse
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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 4 Jun 1997 10:56:23 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
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In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:
[On text layout, and round trips to the DPS engine]
> Never said that they did. However, they require one trip per setting.  
GX's
> retained mode design requires one trip per LINE OF TEXT (although a font
> renderer is likely called more frequently -one or more times per glyph).

At some level, any text system will require the association of position  
information with a glyph, even if only a default position. That is, the  
output device needs to know where to put the ink or pixels. It happens that  
the decomposition used in OPENSTEP permits this information to be exposed  
in the public APIs.

It is also worth noting that the design of the communication channel with  
the DPS engine under OPENSTEP is such that NO round trips are required.   
All the commands generated by the text system are encoded in a compact  
binary format as part of a buffered stream.  The stream buffers are  
asynchronously flushed to the DPS engine when full, or when the application  
returns to the main event loop, or very infrequently by an explicit flush  
command.  The text system does not have to wait for a reply from the DPS  
engine.  There is no round trip overhead, and there is a substantial  
performance advantage on multiprocessor platforms.
 
-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque@wco.com)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Beginner question... Moveable text box?
Date: 4 Jun 1997 17:53:33 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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In  "Robert A. Decker" wrote:
> 
>   I'm just starting out and so this may be a basic question. I've done the
> tutorials.
> 
>   I want to have a window that can have scrollable text boxes dropped onto
> it. However, I want the scrollable text boxes to be selectable and moveable
> within the window. 
>   I was wondering if anyone has extended NSScrollView to give these
> features (preferably with a title bar, resize handle, and button to iconize
> it). Is there something else I should be looking at?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> rob
> 
This is a VERY bad user interface idea.  I do not know of any implementations 
like that.  (Except in obsolete  Windows versions!)

What you are describing is multiple windows with scolling text for content.  
Why limit the "extended NSScrollView ...  (preferably with a title bar, 
resize handle, and button to iconize it)" to the inside of another window ?  

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From: juergen.albertsen@flensburg.netsurf.de (Juergen Albertsen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: Rhapsody webobjects problem
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 16:49:41 GMT
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Hi Robert!

>  I understand that we don't receive support for our Rhapsody cd's. Can you
>forward this to the rhapsody evangelist if you can't help me?
>
>  I've been trying to get WebObjects (which I received at WWDC) running.
>However, it appears that some libraries aren't installed. I've reinstalled
>webobjects, openstep user, and openstep developer and the libraries still
>aren't present. Here's the errors in console that I get:

For some very strange reasons that I don't understand NeXT (or Apple)
has decided to ship WebObjects and the Enterprise Objects Framework
(EOF) as different products for the Mach platform. Unfortuntaley, you
need EOF to run WebObjects. I don't know how the giveaways at the WWDC
were packed, but maybe there's some CD at bottom of your box? If not,
it seems rather pointless to me to freely distribute a product without

fullfilling all requirements to run it!

Jrgen

---
Jrgen Albertsen
juergen.albertsen@flensburg.netsurf.de
Face the facts -- forget euphoria!
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Wed,  4 Jun 1997 15:38:43 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 3-Jun-97 Re: GX OOP class
proposal &.. by "Ed Deans"@ibm.net 
>> Unified imaging model; OO development environment; unequalled
>> cross-platform compatibility...
>  
> Unified imaging model?  It remains to be seen how important this will
> be in the real world.

Just because you refuse to look doesn't mean that you can't see what the
effects are in the real world.

Try taking a look at how well the lack of a unified imaging model
hampers the development of X applications which want to print, and
compare that to NEXTSTEP, where the unified imaging model makes that
headache disappear.

> OO development environment?  Pick one, there are plenty of
> others or varied quality including Visual Studio, Visual Age and
> CommonPoint.

Go read DejaNews for previous commentary on exactly how CommonPoint has
done in terms of providing a OO development environment as compared to
NEXTSTEP.

Specificly, where are the best-of-breed apps and revoluationary
improvements from other OO development environments?

> Cross-platform unequalled? That's tough to say.

Try using NEXTSTEP sometime.  Just using one machine, I can
cross-compile for 4 different architectures simply by clicking on
checkboxes in ProjectBuilder.  Name another commercial development
environment that provides better cross-compilation support....?
.
> Yellow Box looks like it's only Rhapsody and Win95/NT right? 

We're talking about OpenStep.  OpenStep is available for the m68k black
hardware; Intel hardware running Mach, Win 95, and NT; SPARC hardware
running Mach or Solaris; and NEXTSTEP used to be available for the HPPA
architecture as well.

Furthermore, parts of OpenStep like PDO/EOF are available for a broader
range of Unix operating systems but including all of the above
configurations as well.  There's also the GNUStep project which will
provide a portable and free implementation of OpenStep for Linux which
presumably could easily be ported to any other Unix-like or
POSIX-compliant environment.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Beginner question... Moveable text box?
Date: 4 Jun 97 16:13:44 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
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On Wed, Jun 4, 1997 1:52 PM, Erik M. Buck
 wrote:
>Why limit the "extended NSScrollView ...  (preferably with a title bar, 
>resize handle, and button to iconize it)" to the inside of another window
? 

  It's for a survey builder application. We want to have a text box that
can be moved around on the screen and that can be iconized. The text box
will be linked to other text boxes to give a visual representation of the
path that may be taken through the survey. The surveys are dynamic, so
multiple paths can be followed based how the questions are answered
(therefore some boxes can have multiple links coming off).
  The box will contain the Question, which will either be text, or
something representing a picture, or sound clip, or movie). For now I just
want to be able to move a text box around, and to be able to iconize it.
  Right now I just want to the most basic thing.

  It will build a survey that can used with our Newton survey engine, a
paper survey engine we have, and the web (webobjects would be great for
this. Right now we're using Intelliweb from Micromass).

thanks,

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: frank@ali.bc.ca (Frank Pang)
Subject: Re: DO question: trapping client deaths
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Reply-To: frank@ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:28:41 GMT
References: 
Lines: 23

In article  frank@ali.bc.ca (Frank Pang)  
writes:
Yes I am replying to my own question.  After reading the replies and the  
manuals I got my server to trap client deaths.  HOWEVER, there is also  
another piece of info that helped make this work:
From nextanswers:
* In some circumstances (to be discussed in a future article),  
NXConnection objects can be created for your application implicitly by the  
DO system as objects are vended to processes other than the one that you  
originally connected to. If this happens, you won't be notified 
automatically of port deaths for the new NXConnection instances. Your  
application must become the delegate of the first NXConnection instance  
that you create and respond to the connection:didConnect: delegate  
message. The new NXConnection is passed to this routine, which gives you  
an opportunity to register for invalidation notification with 
that connection.

--
Frank Pang,                              frank@ali.bc.ca
Software Developer
A.L.I. Technologies Ltd.,                (NeXT & MIME accepted)
95-10551 Shellbridge Way, Richmond, BC,  279-5422 (ext. 366)
Canada V6X 2W9
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to insert an icon into an NSTextView?
Date: 4 Jun 1997 21:47:31 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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Anyone know how to insert an icon into an NSTextView? I see there is a 
feature for attachments, but my icons aren't attachments: they're just 
content/decore.

A direct reply to chuck@orcacomputer.com would be appreciated. Any info or 
pointers are appreciated. Thanks.

-Chuck
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 4 Jun 1997 22:20:56 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <0nZQF3_00UhWQ23iFZ@andrew.cmu.edu> Charles William Swiger  
 writes:
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 3-Jun-97 Re: GX OOP class
> proposal &.. by "Ed Deans"@ibm.net 
> > Cross-platform unequalled? That's tough to say.
> 
> Try using NEXTSTEP sometime.  Just using one machine, I can
> cross-compile for 4 different architectures simply by clicking on
> checkboxes in ProjectBuilder.  Name another commercial development
> environment that provides better cross-compilation support....?

Or name any other cross-platform environment where a 'port' has been
delivered accidentally!

At least that's the rumor on 4.x Developer/HP.

Marcel
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From: cstory@research.canon.com.au
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 09:44:44 +1000
Organization: Canon Information Systems Research Australia
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Allan Peretz wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 02 Jun 1997 07:56:11 +1000, cstory@research.canon.com.au
> wrote:
> 
> >If you're not a developer, you don't need it.  The point of the
> >Prelude is to introduce developers to the tools that will be
> >included in Rhapsody DR (Developer's Release).  It's to encourage
> >software development for Rhapsody.  If you're not a developer, you
> >don't really fit in.  Apple isn't pushing NextStep.
> 
> Excuse me!?  How do you know what I need?  I need some time to
> evaluate, test, and learn this product early so I can determine how it
> may benefit my clients.  As I said in my earlier post, it is clearly
> in Apple's advantage to allow me this opportunity.
> 
> Allan Peretz

Your clients are developers?  If so, ok, I agree, but then they're
probably in the developer program, right?  If they aren't developers,
why do you need to evaluate development tools for them?  Give me a
break.  If you were a developer, you would know better than to expect fair
treatment from Apple anyway...

Aloha,
    Cliff
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From: "Robert Norman" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Driver for Parallel Port?
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 15:52:08 -0700
Organization: NEURODATA
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Hi opensteppers!

I'm prototyping a data acquisition program that will use custom drivers
later but for now, I'd just like to talk to the outside world through the
parallel port.  Are there generic drivers out there?  (The 4.2 documentation
states that it is not possible to develop drivers with 4.2 --you need 3.? )



Rob Norman
rjnorman@earthlink.net

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From: John Zachary 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:26:18 -0500
Organization: LSU Robotics Research Laboratory
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cstory@research.canon.com.au wrote:
> If you were a developer, you would know better than to expect fair
> treatment from Apple anyway...
> 

This is the best comment I've read all day!

-- 
John Zachary
LSU Robotics Research Laboratory
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From: mwyner@apple.com (Michelle Wyner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: thanks for the feedback!
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 17:54:35 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer
Lines: 13
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was: rhapsody sample code ideas

Thanks to all those who sent me feedback on what they think would be
useful sample code to write for Rhapsody, and what sample code
(OpenStep/NEXTSTEP) has been useful in the past.

As always, if you have any more comments/ideas on what would be good
sample code to write for Rhapsody, feel free to email me at
mwyner@apple.com.

-- Michelle Wyner
   Apple Developer Tech Support
   Rhapsody Sample Code Warrior
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: quadfat 'finger'
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:49:01 -0700
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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trying to compile finger.1.04 under ns3.3 or 4.1 I get this same message:

cc -arch m68k -arch i386 -arch sparc -pipe -O -DLOGGING -DAUTHUSER -c
finger.c
cc -arch m68k -arch i386 -arch sparc -pipe -O -DLOGGING -DAUTHUSER -c
lprint.c
For architecture m68k:
lprint.c: In function `show_text':
lprint.c:284: `errno' undeclared (first use this function)
lprint.c:284: (Each undeclared identifier is reported only once
lprint.c:284: for each function it appears in.)
*** Exit 1
Stop.


Any clues as to how to get around this?

Thanks
TjL

-- 
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/ 
"The best things in life are made into inferior 
 versions and bundled with the latest Microsoft systems"
Bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html


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From: rob@neurodata.com (Robert Norman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Parallel port driver use?
Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 19:50:51 -0700
Organization: NEURODATA
Lines: 14
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OK...

I previously asked about the availability of a driver for the parallel
port under OpenStep 4.2 (WWDC).  Now I see in Configure.app that there
seems to be a driver installed "On-Board ParallelPort (v4.00)" but how is
it used?  Where do I find the documentation?  I'm sure it's in there
somewhere but....

Hope you-all can help.

-- 
Rob Norman

rjnorman@earthlink.net
osition and all the other rows adjust. Is
NSTableView an appropriate place to do this and where would I start. 

Thanks for the support. This is just a great system!

-- 
Rob Norman

rjnorman@earthlink.net
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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Looking for Frameworks in all the wrong places...
Date: 5 Jun 1997 08:44:21 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Reply-To: dcoyle@ctp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.44.75.195

Hi all:

I'm having a problem that, while not serious, is proving a major  
productivity killer.
Yesterday, I had changed the Install In: target for two frameworks I'm  
working on to be some directory
(/LocalDeveloper/Frameworks from $(HOME)/Library/Frameworks).
Cleaned 'em, made install, etc.
And then recompiled an app that uses the frameworks.
No luck: although I changed all the framework search orders, even removed  
and re-added the frameworks (in PB) at the new locations, the app would  
compile fine, but when I ran it, it would exit, saying it was unable to  
load the dynamic library at the *old location*.
grepping through the project directory yielded absolutely no reference to  
that old location, however. (!)

So, end of the day, I bit the bullet and moved the frameworks back to  
$(HOME)Library/Frameworks. Ditto for changing the search orders, etc.
Scrubbed all references to /LocalDeveloper/Frameworks
Everything builds fine (looks in the right places, too)

So what happens when I try to _run_ the app now? It looks in  
/LocalDeveloper/Frameworks!
I spent half of yesterday trying to get it to look there, without avail,  
and now it does, just when I no longer want it to?!?!?!

What the heck is going on????

Dave

-------
 /\/\   Dave Coyle   
/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / /  118/119 Lower Baggot Street
 \/\/   Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
        Tel: +353 1 607 9008    WWW:  http://www.ctp.com>
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From: michael@ninebits.com (Michael Balle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Vertical SplitView
Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 12:44:31 +0200
Organization: Nine Bits
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <19970605124431743973@[222.223.224.4]>
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Hi,

the release notes that comes with the "Prelude to Rhapsody" states that
the NSSplitView has been enhanced to support vertical splitting. How do
you create a vertical splitter from IB?. I was quite easy to do the
horizontal split view, but the NSSplitView does not have a property
indicating whether it is splitting vertical or horizontally.

regards
Michael
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From: wendling@next.univ-rennes1.fr (Fabrice Wendling)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: DISPLAYING ON MULTIPLE COMPUTERS
Date: 5 Jun 1997 12:07:32 GMT
Organization: Universite de Rennes 1, France
Lines: 13
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Keywords: DISPLAY

Hello,

I'm looking for an application that would be able to broadcast the display  
of one NeXTSTEP computer to one or more other computers on the same  
network.

I found an application called ScreenCast, by Otherwise Co. However, it was  
a demo version. I tried to join Otherwise by mail, without success.

Does anybody have some hints about an application or a easy way to display  
a computer screen on other computers ?

Thanks,
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From: Keith Jacob 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 17:50:27 +2910
Organization: The University of Adelaide
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Lawson English wrote:
> 
> Scott Anguish  said:
> Lawson English  said:
> > >
> > >Unless, of course, I actually suceed in making most of the GX API
> > >accessable and useable to HyperCard developers...
> >
> >
> >       And even still it has almost NO relevance to this.
> >
> >       GX hasn't had adopters largely due to its not being wanted by
> > most people.

Not to mention they haven't heard about it! Bad marketing?

> >
> >       I hardly think your little stack interface programming deal
> > will save GX.
> 
> It's all in how something is marketed, you know...

No, he probably doesn't know...almost every contributor [I have read] to these 
newsgroups conveniently forgets this point. Maybe it is ignorance, but more 
likely it is because they are idealists.

Good marketing could have saved Apple from their current problems, even WITH 
the "Resting on Laurels". Bad marketing and terrible lapses in quality control 
COMBINED with a lack of foresight have almost sunk them.

BTW, I AM an Apple supporter...I just don't see how ignoring reality helps 
anyone...except idealists!

Keith

-- 

Spammers will need to remove their worth from my address.
Everyone else, remove none.
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From: "Jurriaan van der Lingen" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Loading bundles in Windows NT
Date: 5 Jun 1997 15:37:36 GMT
Organization: XS4ALL, networking for the masses
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Does anyone have experience with dynamic bundles in windows NT.
I have bundles included as "bproj" in the project.
This runs fine with dynamic bundles  on mach (OPENSTEP 4.0)
Also it runs fine on Windows NT when I use the very same code in "subproj"
instead of "bproj"

However, when I use bundles in Windows NT (OPENSTEP 4.1), it crashes:

10000000:\RESOURCES\.BUNDLE\.DLL
Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
0x31008a4c in objc_msgSend ()


Help appreciated, Thanks!
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Window redrawing? Beginner question.
Date: 5 Jun 97 12:18:25 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
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  I have a slider that controls a text box. As I slide the slider the text
box grows and rotates (stop laughing - this is my very first Openstep
program).
  However, the background window doesn't redraw itself. I end up with a
white spirograph like thing on a gray window. This is even when I try to
force the redraw of the window (but from reading the classes it sounds like
this should be automatic).

  Here's my code that does everything. As you can see I'm just screwing
aronud:

- (void)scroller:(id)sender
{
   int val;
   float fval;
   NSRect textViewBounds;
   NSSize sizeOfTextField;
   NSWindow *theMainWindow;

   val = [sender intValue];
   fval = [sender floatValue];
   textViewBounds = [textBox bounds];
   
   sizeOfTextField.width = fval/10;
   sizeOfTextField.height = fval/10;

   [textBox setIntValue:val];
   [textBox rotateByAngle:fval];
   [textBox setBoundsRotation:fval];
   [textBox setFrameRotation:fval];
   [textBox setFrameSize:sizeOfTextField];

   theMainWindow = [NSApp mainWindow];
   [theMainWindow setAutodisplay:YES];
   [theMainWindow flushWindow];
   [theMainWindow update];
   [NSApp updateWindows];
}


rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Driver for Parallel Port?
Message-ID: <1997Jun5.094807.98962@cc.usu.edu>
From: edx@cc.usu.edu
Date: 5 Jun 97 09:48:06 MDT
Reply-To: edx@cc.usu.edu
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In <5n4rm6$43@chile.earthlink.net> "Robert Norman" wrote:
> Hi opensteppers!
> 
> I'm prototyping a data acquisition program that will use custom drivers
> later but for now, I'd just like to talk to the outside world through the
> parallel port.  Are there generic drivers out there?  (The 4.2 documentation
> states that it is not possible to develop drivers with 4.2 --you need 3.? )
> 

The version 1.0 release of NXCam which I recently put on Peanuts
and Peak comes with a parallel port driver which is customized for
developers needing to program the parallel port.  It allows you to
access all port registers from user-level code.

And it's free.

If you need the developer docs with sample test code, give me
a shout at edx at cc dot usu dot edu



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From: rob@neurodata.com (Robert Norman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Expand view bounds in scroller?
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 09:54:02 -0700
Organization: NEURODATA
Lines: 22
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Hi again...

I'm trying to put together a demo for a prospective client and need to get
one more feature locked down...

I have a waveform view -- say it's a sound file -- and I'd like to expand
the view in horizontal direction to expand the wave.  I've tried expanding
my view's bound.size.width to no effect.  I've tried various kinds
messaging to the views clipview and scrollview using 
"reflectScrolledClipView" etc.  

My view does not draw longer nor does the scroller reflect the change in
size by changing the scroll control size.  

I've examined the some of the other examples but can't find out how to
change my views length and have it reflected in the scroller.  Help
please!

-- 
Rob Norman

rjnorman@earthlink.net
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From: sd;ljfs;@lassdjfsl.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Use What the Pros Use: Mailloop
Date: 5 Jun 1997 20:12:44 GMT
Organization: Sprint Internet Passport
Lines: 63
Message-ID: <5n76js$v@newsfep3.sprintmail.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: sdn-ts-001caglenp14.dialsprint.net


Mailloop v3.0 is an industrial strength bulk mailer.

Mailloop v3.0 is a bulk mailing program for the internet. It can take a single message and
broadcast it to either a listing of e-mail addresses or to a listing of newsgroups. 
Creates custom newsgroup lists by filtering NNTP servers. Creates custom e-mail lists by 
extracting them from newsgroups. Can also extract e-mail addresses or newsgroup names from
other protocols. Built-in NNTP, SMTP, POP, FTP, HTTP, EXEC, CGI, WHOIS and FINGER clients. 
Anti-cancelbot feature. Automatically processes remove requests. Includes extensive on-line help. 
The most powerful bulk mailer available. Requires Windows 95 or NT 3.51+ and internet access.

The "Program" Mailloop is only available in English.



For more info goto:  http://205.199.4.219
 		     
		     http://205.199.4.219


Using it is easy:

1) Create a message ( http://205.199.4.219/editor.htm ) 
...by using the pull down menus or
...by using any editor

2) Create a newsgroups list ( http://205.199.4.219/news3.htm )
...by filtering an NNTP server or 
...by importing from any text file or 
...by manually creating with any editor or
...by extracting from any FTP file or 
...by extracting from any HTTP file 

3) Create an e-mail list ( http://205.199.4.219/em3.htm )
...by extracting from newsgroups or
...by importing from any text file or
...by manually creating with any editor or
...by extracting from a WHOIS response or
...by extracting from a fingering response or
...by extracting from a UNIX  response or
...by extracting from any FTP file or
...by extracting from any HTTP file or

4) Broadcast the message 
...to the e-mail list or ( http://205.199.4.219/embc.htm )
...to the newsgroup list ( http://205.199.4.219/ngbc.htm ) 

5) Then process the remove requests
...by using the mailbox processor ( http://205.199.4.219/pop.htm )

6) If you want you can use the Newsletter Sever
...The Newsletter Sever will allow you to have an topic-specific newsletter that other can subscribe
   and unsubscribe to.
...Customizing this server response files ( http://205.199.4.219/response.htm )
...Creating a new newsletter ( http://205.199.4.219/create.htm )
...Creating and Updating a newsletter the actual newsletter ( http://205.199.4.219/update.htm )


For more info visit http://205.199.4.219
		 
		    http://205.199.4.219

	
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From: Michael.Gentry@m-c-i.com (Michael Gentry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 5 Jun 1997 21:38:19 GMT
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On 05/31/97, "Ed Deans" wrote:
> Scott Anguish wrote in article <5moesg$36b$1@news.digifix.com>...
>>On 05/30/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>> Given developers faith that Apple can and will ship a new OS
>>before the end of the Century?
>
>Even on its deathbed, the worst case for Copland was a ship date 
before Jan
>1, 2000.

I thought the end of the century was December 31, 2000?

- mrg

-- 
"Java's fame is due to the massive public relations campaign,
 and not to any eminent technical merits."
    - Niklaus Wirth

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From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Physically contiguous memory in DriverKit drivers
Date: 5 Jun 1997 15:21:30 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
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In article <5ls7gu$ga5@news.sns-felb.debis.de>,
Martin Bvckle  wrote:
>Hi to all DriverKit gurus,
>
>Does anybody know how to alloc large pieces (for instance 16MB)
>of physically contiguous memory within a driver? In priciple,
>IOMallocLow can be used for the job. But this function only
>works in the low 16MB of the memory, therefore it is not
>possible to alloc whole 16MB areas.

16MB, that's pretty steep.  Make sure you really need this much
memory.

If you are sure that the allocation will not occur during
interrupt handling you could use kalloc().  Note that this
returns memory which is wired down (cannot be paged out).

Is this a driver for a real device, or is it a pseudo driver?
Will it recieve any hardware interrupts?  If it won't you
might want to unwire much of the memory you allocate to
ensure that it doesn't cause other performance problems.


-- 
  ___ ___ | James E. Quick                     jq@quick.com 
   / /  / | Quick & Associates                 NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/  |    Apple, we know the song's not written yet,
       )  |    but could you at least hum a few more bars? 
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From: mwyner@apple.com (Michelle Wyner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Vertical SplitView
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 16:27:14 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer
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In article <19970605124431743973@[222.223.224.4]>, michael@ninebits.com
(Michael Balle) wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> the release notes that comes with the "Prelude to Rhapsody" states that
> the NSSplitView has been enhanced to support vertical splitting. How do
> you create a vertical splitter from IB?. I was quite easy to do the
> horizontal split view, but the NSSplitView does not have a property
> indicating whether it is splitting vertical or horizontally.
> 
> regards
> Michael

Michael,

It's not something you do from Interface Builder.  If you read a little
bit farther down in the Release Notes, it mentions 2 new methods for the
NSSplitView class:

- (BOOL)isVertical;
- (void)setVertical:(BOOL)flag;

So if you pass in YES to "setVertical", it'll flip the split view to a
vertical one.

-- Michelle Wyner
   Apple Developer Tech Support
   Rhapsody Sample Code Warrior
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From: Matt Watson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for Frameworks in all the wrong places...
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 17:33:40 -0700
Organization: Thaumaturge, Inc.
Lines: 11
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When you link against a framework, which has its "install in" location
embedded in it, this location gets embedded in the executable as well.
If you do an "otool -L" on the framework and binary, you'll see the
install name of the framework, and the location at which the binary
expects to find the framework. These locations are somewhat separate
from the framework search paths you can enter in the ProjectBuilder
inspector.

Hope this helps,

matt.
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From: stephlise@telco.com (Steph&Lise.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: jabi@acsu.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Outline Object
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 22:02:41 -0400
Organization: University At Buffalo
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Hello:
Does anyone have a Tree or an Outline object for OPENSTEP?
Thanks.

- Wassim Jabi
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From: edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew)
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Message-ID: 
Sender: edew@netcom2.netcom.com
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References: <865389689.23631@dejanews.com> <5n4247$odp@crl.crl.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:22:37 GMT
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In article <5n4247$odp@crl.crl.com> mcgredo@nospam.crl.com writes:
>In article <865389689.23631@dejanews.com>,   wrote:
>>Hello - my name is Tracey.. I am working with AT&T in HR as a partner.
>>We are looking for NeXT System Administrators..
>>
>>But my question is, since this is a new software product for
>>me is:
>>
>>Do people outside of NeXT software have these skills?
>
>Since NeXT is BSD Unix under the skin, anyone with a Unix
>background should be able to pick it up fairly quickly. There's
>some flashy NeXT sysadmin tools that make life easier, but
>anyone who's competent should be able to pick that up quickly
>enough. 
>
And NeXTs are easier to administer than PCs (running NT, for example)
or Macs or Solarises or HP-UXes.  You can get two NeXT sys admins to
manage up to 200 machines with little problems.

>Rhapsody might have enough flashy sysadmin tools for a non-
>unix type to get by, but that remains to be seen.
>
>>What are the salaries of people with this skill set?
>
>Uh, $500,000/yr. Yeah, that's the ticket. :-)
>
It depends on the region.  In the Silicon Valley, $500K is a little on the
low side :-)

EDEW
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From: com@com.com (com@com.com)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 05:15:26 GMT
Organization: com@com.com
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On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:22:37 GMT, edew@netcom.com (Eric Dew) wrote:

>>>What are the salaries of people with this skill set?
>>
>>Uh, $500,000/yr. Yeah, that's the ticket. :-)
>>
>It depends on the region.  In the Silicon Valley, $500K is a little on the
>low side :-)

Eric, I would be curious (and other lurkers) to know what a NextStep
programmer makes? In particular, those many & several programmers
I see that post here. The ones that do work "off location" (i.e. their
home or office) (vs. i.e. working for a traditional "company").
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: 6 Jun 1997 06:01:18 GMT
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com@com.com (com@com.com) wrote:
> Eric, I would be curious (and other lurkers) to know what a NextStep
> programmer makes? In particular, those many & several programmers
> I see that post here. The ones that do work "off location" (i.e. their
> home or office) (vs. i.e. working for a traditional "company").

Well, to inject some tiny hint of reality into this, the
consultants charge what they can get, and that will vary
greatly from one project to the next for most of them.  If
they are popular and well known, like Omni, they can get
$250/hour on some contracts.  If they don't have those sorts
of credentials, they may be as cheap as, say a student who
scrapes out code by night and goes for $15/hour.  And there's
a whole spectrum in between.  So you could say that the NeXT
developers are making something between $30k to $500k per
year...though I _strongly_ suspect that most are nearer to the
60-100k range (depending upon skill) than either extreme.

This is somewhat conjecture, somewhat based on what I know of
others in the same field, but should be pretty close to the truth.
I won't tell you what I make or charge, though, in any terms more
precise than the above. :-)

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: Rene Berber <_rberber@spin.com.mx_>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Outline Object
Date: 6 Jun 1997 05:44:06 GMT
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Cc: jabi@acsu.buffalo.edu

In <33976FC1.35D3@arch.buffalo.edu> jabi@acsu.buffalo.edu wrote:
> Hello:
> Does anyone have a Tree or an Outline object for OPENSTEP?
> Thanks.
> 

The MiscKit 1.9 does have an outline view, look into the  MiscTreeBrowser 
class and in the examples for MiscTreeBrowserTest, perhaps is what you are 
looking for.

--
Rene Berber
rberber@spin.com.mx
(MIME/NeXTMail welcomed)

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: Fri,  6 Jun 1997 11:31:19 -0400
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 6-Jun-97 Re: NeXT People
Question by com@com.com@com.com 
> Eric, I would be curious (and other lurkers) to know what a NextStep
> programmer makes? In particular, those many & several programmers
> I see that post here. The ones that do work "off location" (i.e. their
> home or office) (vs. i.e. working for a traditional "company").

It depends on whether you choose to be a salaried employee or whether
you want to play the consulting game.  Consultants can make anywhere up
to $250 an hour, but somewhere in the region of $125-$150 is going to be
a lot more typical.  Of course, a consultant has to find new work on a
regular basis, and they can end up not working for a while if the market
slows down.

The low-end for salaried employees is about $30,000 - $35,000, and
really good NEXTSTEP programmers can see over $100K, with $50K being a
reasonable guestimate for the average salary for an experienced
programmer.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: "Ross K. Leonard" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: Prelude WebObjects serial number?
Date: 4 Jun 1997 21:26:46 GMT
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Robert A. Decker  wrote in article
...
> 
>   I just finished installing the Prelude WebObjects stuff (on Mach) and
> it's now asking me for a serial number. It's making reference to a
> registration card. I've looked through the 'Getting Started on
WebObjects'
> book and the 'Installation Guide' booklet, but I can't find a reference
to
> the serial number. I also looked at the CD. 
>   This seems to be everything I received at WWDC that has anything to do
> with WebObjects. Has anyone else gotten around this?
> 
> 
> rob


I'm just working through the same install, and I believe the serial # is on
the sticker on the Tyvek CD sleeve. However, when I use that serial number,
I get an error while running serial.app (can't write to license.table). I
don't know if they are related or not.

-Ross-




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From: Fabien_Roy@no.spam.free.fdn.fr
Subject: Re: EOModeler to Database
Message-ID: 
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Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 21:20:01 GMT
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In article <5n16c0$6ru@stern.fokus.gmd.de>, you wrote:
> 
> I have EOF and a sybase database-server running on my black next
> so far - so good
> 
> now I want to access to the sybase database-server from another  
> next-machine in the network (for example: make a new EOModel from an  
> existing database with EOModeler)
> HOW to do this ?
> 
> Is there a way to type in the path in the database-login-panel off the  
> EOModeler ?
> or another easy way to do that?
> 
> thanks
> 
> oliver
0) Shutdown the SQL server.
1) Edit the file /usr/sybase/interfaces
2) Replace al instances of "localhost" by the name of your host.
3) Copy the modified file in the client (/usr/sybase/interfaces)
4) Restart server.
5) Test from client

Hope that helps.

---
Fabien Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted)
Fabien Roy Consultant
NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA
10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France 
Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23  Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90
GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83

 advance for any insights,

Lloyd Goldwasser
goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu



A side problem: NAN seems no longer to be working, either.  I get the
compiler warning

  ediv invalid operation error

although all of my NAN code worked fine before, and I'm #including
 and everything else that I was #including before.  It's not
that it doesn't recognize NAN, it's that it suddenly doesn't like it.
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From: doyle@wrq.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Prelude WO won't launch - serial number required?
Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 21:42:06 -0700
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After installing all three Prelude WebObjects packages under Intel Mach
(apparently successfully in the installer's opinion), I can't get
WebObjectsBuilder to launch. On double-click, the app icon appears
(dimmed) in the lower right corner of the screen for about a second,
then just silently goes away. The http server is running and responding;
virgin install of the whole Prelude package on a 1GB partition on a
plain old 166 Pentium from WebObjects customer Dell Computer seems
otherwise to work fine.

I had no serial number to give the installer, which said I would be
missing "significant functionality" without a serial number. This would
certainly qualify as "significant!" Did others get a demo serial number?
Did I lose a card or something?

Any clue what would cause this behavior? I'd kinda like to try this
stuff, but I'm flummoxed.

 dm

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From: thompson@filoli.com (Peter Thompson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Looking for a good game framework...
Date: 6 Jun 1997 23:41:28 GMT
Organization: Relax, don't worry!  Have a homebrew!
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Hi folks,

I'm looking for a framework that I can write a game or two around.  Is 
there such a beast for OpenStep?  I ran across an old copy of GameKit 
for NeXT, but I'm not sure I'm up to the porting task (it doesn't 
really work with NeXT3.3 tools either).

Thanks for any leads,
	Peter Thompson.
-- 
**************************************************************************
Peter Thompson ---- thompson@filoli.com ---- Filoli Information Systems.
**************************************************************************

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try -all_load option of cc

excerpt from ReleaseNotes/CompilerTools.rtf

*	The new -all_load flag provides a way to link in all the members of 
the specified libraries.  When this flag is present all library members for 
the specified libraries are always loaded from the library.  This solves 
problems with respect to the use of rld(3), objc_loadModules(3) and NXBundles 
where the application wants to make available all of the library routines to 
the code it dynamically loads.  This provides a more general solution that 
which is provided with the "-u libsys_s" like flags with respect to the NeXT 
supplied shared libraries.  This solution  works for all types of libraries 
including those not supplied by NeXT.
 
-- 
Fabien Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted)
Fabien Roy Consultant
NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA
10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France 
Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23  Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90
GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83

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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problems with compiling after OpenStep conversion
Date: 6 Jun 1997 18:38:25 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
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In article <5n7cjb$osr@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu> goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu  
(Lloyd Goldwasser) writes:
> All of my files now compile with nothing worse than warnings, and
> then the compiler moves on to this file:
> 
>   /NextLibrary/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Headers/NSObjCRuntime.h
> 
> which gives me several parse errors ("before '@'", "before '*'").
> Then I find that the above file has been automatically added to the
> project as a Non Project File (it wasn't there before).

That's perfectly normal.  It's not in your project, but now Project Builder  
can display the 'errant' lines in it's editor.

> The error
> message also says
> 
>   possible Objective-C token in C input.  Use -ObjC
> 
> which I take to be a suggestion to add it as an argument among the
> build options.  When I do so, /bin/gnumake complains that it's an
> invalid option and stops.

-ObjC is an option to be passed to the compiler, not as a build option  
(which passes it to gnumake, which complains...).  You can add this to the  
OTHER_CFLAGS line in your project's Makefile.preamble:

# Flags passed to compiler (in addition to -g, -O, etc)
OTHER_CFLAGS = -ObjC

The problem is almost certainly a header file containing Obj-C constructs,  
such as NSObjCRuntime.h, being included in a file ending with a .c suffix.   
The compiler front end sees that .c suffix and decides that it is looking  
at a vanilla C file, rather than an Obj-C file, and uses the vanilla C back  
end.  The vanilla C back end sees the Obj-C constructs and complains.


-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque@wco.com)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: stephane@lysis.ch (Stephane Corthesy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Loading bundles in Windows NT
Date: 6 Jun 97 10:12:57 GMT
Organization: Lysis S.A.
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In <01bc71c6$5bd39ef0$77c4e5c2@tatra> "Jurriaan van der Lingen" wrote:
> Does anyone have experience with dynamic bundles in windows NT.
> I have bundles included as "bproj" in the project.
> This runs fine with dynamic bundles  on mach (OPENSTEP 4.0)
> Also it runs fine on Windows NT when I use the very same code in "subproj"
> instead of "bproj"
> 
> However, when I use bundles in Windows NT (OPENSTEP 4.1), it crashes:
> 
> 10000000:\RESOURCES\.BUNDLE\.DLL
> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
> 0x31008a4c in objc_msgSend ()
> 
> 
> Help appreciated, Thanks!
> 

In NeXTanswer  ??? (I don't remember which one...), you can find the answer 
to this problem with NT: you need to add the frameworks you use into the 
bundles too, not only into the main project.
You wouldn't need it if you don't use ANY functions or external variables 
from the frameworks, like NSApp, or NSLog().

Stphane

--

"L'ordinateur n'a pas l'intelligence qu'on lui prete, mais celle qu'on lui 
donne."

Stephane Corthesy
Lysis S.A.
Rue des Cotes de Montbenon 8
CH-1003 Lausanne
Switzerland
Tel. +41.21.312.91.91          Fax +41.21.312.93.43
E-mail: stephane@lysis.ch (NeXTMail welcome)

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From: schack@skyler.arc.ab.ca (Brian Schack)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Loading bundles in Windows NT
Date: 06 Jun 1997 08:39:17 -0600
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In-reply-to: "Jurriaan van der Lingen"'s message of 5 Jun 1997 15:37:36 GMT
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>>>>> "Jurriaan" == "Jurriaan van der Lingen"  writes:

    Jurriaan> Does anyone have experience with dynamic bundles in
    Jurriaan> windows NT.  I have bundles included as "bproj" in the
    Jurriaan> project.  This runs fine with dynamic bundles on mach
    Jurriaan> (OPENSTEP 4.0) Also it runs fine on Windows NT when I
    Jurriaan> use the very same code in "subproj" instead of "bproj"

    Jurriaan> However, when I use bundles in Windows NT (OPENSTEP
    Jurriaan> 4.1), it crashes:

    Jurriaan> 10000000:\RESOURCES\.BUNDLE\.DLL
    Jurriaan> Program received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault.
    Jurriaan> 0x31008a4c in objc_msgSend ()

Does the bundle try to reference a variable or function declared in
the main program?  If so, then you'll have to jump through some hoops
(courtesy of the WindowsNT linker).  Basically, all variables and
functions that are need to be global to the bundles and the main
program should be put into a framework (read "DLL").

I can give you details if this is in fact the problem.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brian Schack		 |mailto:schack@arc.ab.ca | "I don't want to achieve
Alberta Research Council |http://www.arc.ab.ca    |  immortality through my
6815 8th St NE           |		          |  work ... I want to achieve
Calgary, Alberta	 |ph:  (403) 297-7564     |  it through not dying."
Canada	T2E 7H7		 |fax: (403) 297-2339     |  - Woody Allen
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From: com@com.com (com@com.com)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 05:30:21 GMT
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On 6 Jun 1997 06:01:18 GMT, don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
wrote:

>com@com.com (com@com.com) wrote:
>> Eric, I would be curious (and other lurkers) to know what a NextStep
>> programmer makes? In particular, those many & several programmers
>> I see that post here. The ones that do work "off location" (i.e. their
>> home or office) (vs. i.e. working for a traditional "company").
>
>Well, to inject some tiny hint of reality into this, the

would the above, working off 'location', be in line with reality, in
your opinion?

>consultants charge what they can get, and that will vary
>greatly from one project to the next for most of them.  If
>they are popular and well known, like Omni, they can get
>$250/hour on some contracts.  If they don't have those sorts

I guess I was talking about what the individual takes home. 
I seem to remember reading somewhere. .that the "company"
will bill (i.e.) $200./hour
the programmer will get about 1/2 this. . 

which is still about 50% above what someone on salary gets
(with the trade off, being. . salary=job protection, more benefits,
more stable life, etc.)

>of credentials, they may be as cheap as, say a student who
>scrapes out code by night and goes for $15/hour.  And there's

I would be curious to know if such animals do exist? (in NextStep
that is).


>a whole spectrum in between.  So you could say that the NeXT
>developers are making something between $30k to $500k per
>year...though I _strongly_ suspect that most are nearer to the
>60-100k range (depending upon skill) 

Skill. . . .
and location. . . a person making a $100k/year in the People's
Republic of California. .  or the Worker's Paradise of New York
City, would probably not be living as well as someone that has left
those type locales. .and relocated to the backwoods of wherever.
Hence the question about working "off location". Even the most remote
parts of the nation are connected now.


>This is somewhat conjecture, somewhat based on what I know of
>others in the same field, but should be pretty close to the truth.
>I won't tell you what I make or charge, though, in any terms more
>precise than the above. :-)

And I wouldn't want you too! I'm looking more for "general" terms.
I guess you have the 'low' and the 'high'---and most people probably
fall into that bell curve in the middle.  On the other hand, how many
people that use NextStep are mediocre enough to be described as
average? hmmm...

Thanks for the input.



>
>-- 
>Later,
>
>-Don Yacktman
>don@misckit.com
>My home page
>

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From: com@com.com (com@com.com)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: Sat, 07 Jun 1997 05:31:22 GMT
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On 6 Jun 1997 20:04:26 GMT, John Kheit  wrote:

>I think it being a highly demanded, but short supplied market has
>a lot to do with the higher rates....  All that will change in the
>upcoming years (so live it up while you can :).

This is a most interesting statement!
Would you care to guess as to the figures?
I know that NextStep was never a "wild" success in terms
of lots of people using it, but WAS a success in terms of
programmers making money. 
Are you talking 20% off the figures above? ---or something
more drastic, like "80%"?

Also, can you give a time frame? (lets assume Rhapsody ships
on time etc.). When would the above figure(s) start to influence the
market?





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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: 7 Jun 1997 05:42:29 GMT
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com@com.com (com@com.com) wrote:
> On 6 Jun 1997 20:04:26 GMT, John Kheit 
> wrote:
> This is a most interesting statement!  Would you care to guess
> as to the figures? I know that NextStep was never a "wild" success
> in terms of lots of people using it, but WAS a success in terms
> of programmers making money.  Are you talking 20% off the figures
> above? ---or something more drastic, like "80%"?

> Also, can you give a time frame? (lets assume Rhapsody ships on
> time etc.). When would the above figure(s) start to influence
> the market?

Well, my best guestimate would be for those figures to asymtotically
approach the industry average...The rate of change would depend
upon how quickly and in what numbers people will go to the environment.
I image w/in 3 years that OPENSTEP salaries get inline with the
rest of the industry...  Then again, it's pretty much speculation
on my part :)

--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc.            ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer     mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming...   http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School         You're dangerous because you're honest
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Why is setFrameOrigin: in NSView appear to be off 9 pixels?
Date: 7 Jun 97 01:55:30 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
Lines: 74
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  (This is kind of embarrassing. The first time I sent this out I
accidently sent it to comp.lang.java.programmer)

  I have an object subclassed from NSBox. I can drag the box object around
the window and resize it, but things seem to be off 9 pixels. Here's the
relevant stuff in my header:

@interface MyNSBox : NSBox
{
   NSPoint boxClickLocation;
   BOOL resizeOnDrag;
}
- (void) mouseDown:(NSEvent *) theEvent;
- (void) mouseDragged:(NSEvent *) theEvent;
- (BOOL) isPointInResizeArea:(NSPoint) thePoint;
@end

and here's the relative functions in my code:

- (void) mouseDown:(NSEvent *) theEvent
{
   NSPoint windowClickLocation = [theEvent locationInWindow];
   
   boxClickLocation = [self convertPoint:windowClickLocation fromView:nil];

   if ([self isPointInResizeArea:boxClickLocation]) {
      resizeOnDrag = YES;
   } else {
      resizeOnDrag = NO;
   }
}

- (void) mouseDragged:(NSEvent *) theEvent
{
   NSPoint mouseLocation = [theEvent locationInWindow];

   if (resizeOnDrag) {
      // bunch of stuff
   } else {
      NSPoint finalLocation;

      finalLocation.x = (mouseLocation.x - delta.x);
      finalLocation.y = (mouseLocation.y - delta.y - 9);

      [self setFrameOrigin:finalLocation]
   }
   [self setNeedsDisplay:YES];
   [[self superview] setNeedsDisplay:YES];
}

  In the mouseDragged function you can see that when I set finalLocation.y
variable I have to subtract 9 from the y value of the mouse. If I don't the
box jumps up 9 pixels when I start to drag it. This also happens when I
resize the box (except in this case the resize is 9 pixels higher than
where the mouse is).
  I can do this little hack to fix it, but I'd like to know why it's
happening. 

thanks,

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott




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From: atze@aspohr.dart.de (Alexander Spohr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WO: You backtracked too far
Date: 6 Jun 1997 11:34:23 GMT
Organization: InterShop Communications
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ideas and help needed!

we are developing a WO-application which uses frames.
at the top there is a frame with a menu-bar which is build at the start of 
the session.
if the user clicks around in the lower frames for a while and then uses the 
menu-bar we just get "You backtracked too far".
to avoid this backtrack-buffer overrun in the lower frames we started to  
recycle pages by using them again and again (subclassed pageWithName:). but 
the problem will still be there if we have more than X different pages or 
some we can't recycle this way.

so the question: how can we avoid this without updating the menu-bar every 
time? has anyone solved this problem?

	Atze

------------------------
|       menu-bar       |
------------------------
|          |           |
|          |           |
| frame1   |   frame2  |
|          |           |
|          |           |
------------------------
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From: michael@ninebits.com (Michael Balle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Vertical SplitView
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 09:59:52 +0200
Organization: Nine Bits
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Michelle Wyner  wrote:

Michelle,

thanks for the answer. Are you going to add support to IB to control
this behavior?.

Michael

> It's not something you do from Interface Builder.  If you read a little
> bit farther down in the Release Notes, it mentions 2 new methods for the
> NSSplitView class:
> 
> - (BOOL)isVertical;
> - (void)setVertical:(BOOL)flag;
> 
> So if you pass in YES to "setVertical", it'll flip the split view to a
> vertical one.
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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: 6 Jun 1997 20:04:26 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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Charles William Swiger  wrote:
> It depends on whether you choose to be a salaried employee or
> whether you want to play the consulting game.  Consultants can
> make anywhere up to $250 an hour, but somewhere in the region of
> $125-$150 is going to be a lot more typical.  Of course, a
> consultant has to find new work on a regular basis, and they can
> end up not working for a while if the market slows down.

> The low-end for salaried employees is about $30,000 - $35,000,
> and really good NEXTSTEP programmers can see over $100K, with
> $50K being a reasonable guestimate for the average salary for an
> experienced programmer.

Boy, I think it depends on region, b/c here in NY the salaries I've
heard of are a LOT higher.

I've heard consultants getting round $350/hr (sheesh as bad as
lawyers :) but on average $175-225, and full time work for a decently
experienced NeXT programmer (3+ years) is in the 80-100k on average,
and 130k on up for the super duper guys...

I think it being a highly demanded, but short supplied market has
a lot to do with the higher rates....  All that will change in the
upcoming years (so live it up while you can :).
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc.            ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer     mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming...   http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School         You're dangerous because you're honest
####################################################################
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From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp (Penrose Christopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSScrollView won't scroll NSMatrix
Date: 07 Jun 1997 16:52:48 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Kanagawa Japan
Lines: 43
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Hi Folks!

I have created an NSMatrix inside of an NSScrollview:

  [self setHasVerticalScroller:YES];
  [self setScrollsDynamically:YES];
  [self setAutoresizesSubviews:YES];
  [self setAutoresizingMask:NSViewWidthSizable|NSViewHeightSizable];
  
  tempRect.size = [NSScrollView contentSizeForFrameSize:theFrame.size
                hasHorizontalScroller:YES
                hasVerticalScroller:NO
                borderType:borderType];

  matrix = [[NSMatrix alloc] initWithFrame:tempRect];

  [self addSubview:matrix];
  [self setDocumentView:matrix];

  [matrix setAutoresizingMask:NSViewWidthSizable|NSViewHeightSizable];
  [matrix setAutoscroll:YES]; /* YES, please scroll damnit!! */
  [[matrix superview] setAutoresizesSubviews:YES];


In the application, the NSScrollView never produces scroll handles
even though the NSMatrix document view expands beyond the frame
of the NSScrollView's content view.

I use:

[theMatrix addRow];
[theMatrix setNeedsDisplay:YES];

to add new rows to the NSMatrix.  I first tried to save time and I
initially used interface builder.  I achieved identical results:
the NSScrollView never updates.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Chris Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
penrose@music.princeton.edu
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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for a good game framework...
Date: 7 Jun 1997 17:28:54 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
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thompson@filoli.com (Peter Thompson) wrote:
> Hi folks,
> 
> I'm looking for a framework that I can write a game or two around.  Is 
> there such a beast for OpenStep?  I ran across an old copy of GameKit 
> for NeXT, but I'm not sure I'm up to the porting task (it doesn't 
> really work with NeXT3.3 tools either).

I'm the original author of that kit.  I will be doing the porting and, 
actually, a complete overhaul of the kit.  I don't know *when* it will be 
ready, but announcements will be made as soon as I begin to release parts of 
it.  The plan is to release it as various parts become available, rather than 
waiting for the whole kit to be finished so that people can start using at 
least those parts.

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: brianw@sounds.wa.com (Brian Willoughby)
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Message-ID: 
Organization: Sound Consulting, Bellevue, WA, USA
References: <865389689.23631@dejanews.com> <5n9qga$cnu$4@news2.digex.net> <3398ef04.3120517@news.voyageronline.net> <5nasc5$fva$1@news2.digex.net>
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 1997 17:55:14 GMT
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In article <5nasc5$fva$1@news2.digex.net>,
John Kheit   wrote:
>Well, my best guestimate would be for those figures to asymtotically
>approach the industry average...The rate of change would depend
>upon how quickly and in what numbers people will go to the environment.
>I image w/in 3 years that OPENSTEP salaries get inline with the
>rest of the industry...  Then again, it's pretty much speculation
>on my part :)

I would be curious to know what the industry average is for programmers
in the markets that are most similar to OPENSTEP now.  I have a couple
of figures for the Seattle area, but I don't know if they're reliable or
more wishful thinking.  In other words, what are Object Oriented software
developers making on contract in various parts of the US, or the world.
My impression is that talented OO programmers command reasonably high
rates which wouldn't upset a long-term NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP professional.
-- 
Brian Willoughby	NEXTSTEP, OpenStep, Rhapsody Software Design
Sound Consulting	Bellevue, WA, U.S.A.
Registered NeXT/Apple Enterprise Alliance Partner
BrianW@SoundS.WA.com	NeXTmail welcome
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for a good game framework...
Date: 7 Jun 1997 15:37:02 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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On 06/07/97, Peter Thompson wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>I'm looking for a framework that I can write a game or two around.  Is 
>there such a beast for OpenStep?  I ran across an old copy of GameKit 
>for NeXT, but I'm not sure I'm up to the porting task (it doesn't 
>really work with NeXT3.3 tools either).
>
I believe Don Yacktman is porting this as part of the OpenStep MiscKit.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 


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From: don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Looking for a good game framework...
Date: 7 Jun 1997 19:13:54 GMT
Organization: Global Objects Inc.
Lines: 39
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mmalcolm crawford  wrote:
> On 06/07/97, Peter Thompson wrote:
> >[... GameKit ...]
> I believe Don Yacktman is porting this as part of the OpenStep MiscKit.

As noted in my other post, I am porting it.  It will NOT be part of the 
MiscKit, however.  It will be a seperate framework.  It _will_ depend upon 
the MiscKit however.  Several MiscKit objects are generalizations of objects 
that originated in the GameKit...which also means that you should be looking 
at the MiscKit, too.

By the way, I've not yet decided what licensing terms will be for the 
GameKit.  You can pretty much count on something different than the terms of 
the old kit, but I don't know what the new terms will be.  What I'm fighting 
against here is that (a) if people were paying for it, I could devote more 
time to making it great, which I would really like to do but (b) I suspect 
few will be willing to pay for it.  I could open it up for collaboration like 
the MiscKit, and that may or may not solve the problem.  I'd also like to (c) 
make sure that if any license fees are reequired that the cost of entry to 
students and shareware programmers is very low.  (Ie, charge fees, say, for 
commercial users but not for people writing freeware?)  Another possibility 
is to make it free, but allow people to buy support or even just send in 
voluntary donations.  All support and donated funds would then be fed into 
future development of the kit in a non-profit sort of way.  This is sort of 
what I'm leaning towards, but I don't know if it will be good enough to 
support the kind of development time I'd like to devote to the project...

Past experience tells me the kit will be most successful as a MiscKit-like 
scheme, but the market is about to change radically, so that may or may not 
be the best model for the future.  Any comments on this--here or in private 
email--would be welcome, of course.  :^)

-- 
Later,

-Don Yacktman
don@misckit.com
My home page

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Expand view bounds in scroller?
Date: 7 Jun 1997 18:29:59 GMT
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In  
Robert Norman wrote:
> Hi again...
> I have a waveform view -- say it's a sound file -- and I'd like to expand
> the view in horizontal direction to expand the wave.  I've tried expanding
> my view's bound.size.width to no effect.  I've tried various kinds
> messaging to the views clipview and scrollview using 
> "reflectScrolledClipView" etc.  
> 
> My view does not draw longer nor does the scroller reflect the change in
> size by changing the scroll control size.  
> 
The -setBounds: method will do what you want and it even sends a notification 
to the scroller if any to reflect the new bounds.  (This works under 3.3... I 
have not tried with 4.2)

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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: 7 Jun 1997 20:31:56 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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References: <865389689.23631@dejanews.com> <5n9qga$cnu$4@news2.digex.net> <3398ef04.3120517@news.voyageronline.net> <5nasc5$fva$1@news2.digex.net> 
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brianw@sounds.wa.com (Brian Willoughby) wrote:
> In article <5nasc5$fva$1@news2.digex.net>, John Kheit
>  wrote:
> >Well, my best guestimate would be for those figures to asymtotically
> >approach the industry average...The rate of change would depend
> >upon how quickly and in what numbers people will go to the
> >environment.  I image w/in 3 years that OPENSTEP salaries get
> >inline with the rest of the industry...  Then again, it's pretty
> >much speculation on my part :)

> I would be curious to know what the industry average is for
> programmers in the markets that are most similar to OPENSTEP now.
> I have a couple of figures for the Seattle area, but I don't know
> if they're reliable or more wishful thinking.  In other words,
> what are Object Oriented software developers making on contract
> in various parts of the US, or the world. My impression is that
> talented OO programmers command reasonably high rates which
> wouldn't upset a long-term NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP professional.

Well, I don't know the national figures.  And the NYC figures I
have are a combination of hearsay, and anecdotal experience.

And of course it depends on experience...

But if graduating student can expect a 30k/yr salary for doing
basic C type coding, I'd say you would be in the 40k/yr doing OO
work of import and significance (i.e. where the C++ project relied
on the ++ in some significant way)...  I would think that salary
boost would apply throughout, but don't know for sure...

And a graduating student with a fair bit of NeXT experience (say
1 yr) can usually land in at 50-60k/yr...
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc.            ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer     mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming...   http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School         You're dangerous because you're honest
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NeXT People Question
Date: 7 Jun 1997 18:47:58 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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	 <33979c83.1360723@news.voyageronline.net>
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In <33979c83.1360723@news.voyageronline.net> com@com.com wrote:

EXPERT nextstep programmers who ALSO have some knowledge of one of the many 
application fields using NeXTstep earn low 6 figures from remote offices and 
mid 6 figures for on-site work.  Add 25% for New York City and some other 
expensive areas.

NOVICE nextstep programmers earn about standard fees 50-75k / year

One reason fees are high (apart from supply and demand) is that expert 
nextstep programmers are capable of creating apps for vertical or horizontal 
markets very rapidly and inexpensively.  Employers are pay a premium for the 
"opportunity costs" of distracting the programmers from building and selling 
their own apps.  For instance, my company earns 7 figures for selling apps 
but only six figures for contract work.  With nextstep, the risks of building 
apps without a paying customer are low.  It is an extremely good business to 
be in right now.

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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Plotting points in a view
Date: 8 Jun 1997 13:18:15 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Message-ID: <5neben$7om$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <5nd81d$hsp@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
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On 06/08/97, Nathan Urban wrote:
>I'm trying to create a view subclass that can plot colored points.  The
>workhorse method is -plotX:(int)x andY:(int)y withColor:(NSColor *)aColor.
>The main intent is to have a view where every pixel has a color, and to
>be able to change a pixel's color.  How should I implement this class?
>I've been looking at making it a subclass of NSImageView, and plotting
>points by modifying the data held by an NSBitmapImageRep and then
>compositing the NSImage.  Is this the best way to do it?  It seems
>unnecessarily complicated, what with having to convert the NSColor to
>bit planes and then writing into the data array (I'm not even sure how
>to do that), etc.  I bet there's some DPS operator for plotting points
>that I can use in an NSView's -drawRect:.  What are the tradeoffs between
>doing that and using an NSImageView?
>
Speed; there is no way plotting individual points will be as quick as an 
NSBitmapImageRep. 

Is this View going to be a constant size, or could the user resize it?

>I guess in the former case, I'd have to subclass NSView and maintain my
>own array of colors, which is basically what NSImageView is doing anyway..
>(Or maybe not..  I only need to plot..  so maybe I could just plot to a
>view, and it would buffer it for me so I wouldn't have to know what I've
>plotted in order to redraw.)
>
Well, you should really create a Model of what you want to draw, with its 
own data and plotting routine, and have this display in a View, its action 
mediated by a Controller object...

If you just draw the new points into a buffered View and composite that onto 
screen it should be fairly quick *when you're adding new points*; for 
redraws of the whole thing, though, especially if you print it, it may get a 
bit unwieldy. If you do decide to use PostScript, however, it is better to 
use a single NSRectFillList call (which takes an array of rectangles and 
draws them all at once) rather than using many PSrectfill calls.


>If I do go the NSImageView route, I guess I'd have to
>modify the NSBitmapImageRep's bitmap data and then invoke
>-compositeToPoint:operation: on its image in my -plotX:... method.
>
You could subclass NSBitmapImageRep and define your own 
colourPoint:(NSPoint) p withColour:(NSColor) colour method...

This would access the NSBitmapImageRep's data directly -- you'd have a 
relatively simple method to work out which bits to twiddle based on the 
width and height of the image...

You would probably use the drawAtPoint method rather than composite...

>(Or instead of using an NSBitmapImageRep, should I subclass NSImageRep
>or NSCustomImageRep and use a simple array of static NSColor instances
>and override its -draw method to plot them all to a view?  How would I
>do that efficiently?)
>
I don't think you would!  :-)

>I suppose the disadvantage of using an
>NSImageView is that I could only use it as a grid of colored pixels..
>that _is_ the main intent, but I might also want to draw text into it
>later or something..  then again, I might put another view on top of it
>with alpha transparency and draw into that..
>
Yes, that would probably be better.


For really fast work with bitmaps, note the observations Don Yacktman made a 
while back...

Subject:      Re: drawing bitmap to screen quickly
From:         don@globalobjects.com (Don Yacktman)
Date:         1997/02/03
Message-Id:   <5d5d4r$t2l@news.xmission.com>
Newsgroups:   comp.sys.next.programmer

For the best speed, read the DPS release notes and performance
notes that come with the NEXTSTEP documentation.  What you want
to do is to *exactly* match the buffer's layout to the screen
RAM's layout  (meshed vs. planar, bits per pixel, etc.) and then,
on slabs, if your buffer is the right *width* (there's a complex
formula in one of the performance notes) you'll get an extra
boost.  This is all very hardware dependent, but it is the same
thing you'd have to do with Interceptor.  (So you may want to
make different drawing routines to deal with various buffer
geometries to match different hardware platforms, for example.)
In fact, because of the width thing (DPS notices an "optimal"
width and does a special machine instruction for a wider copy
when it sees it) it is harder to beat DPS when using Interceptor
on color slabs without dropping into asm code yourself...

I hope this helps,

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 


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From: theisen@akaMail.com (Dirk Theisen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior
Subject: Re: Rhapsody DR to also support 9500 and 9600 PowerMacs
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 02:04:11 +0200
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, University of Bonn, Germany
Lines: 17
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Hi!

 wrote:
> full text at this URL: 

I really cannot understand why is should delay the shipment of DR1 when
they would qualify PM7600 systems.
These have essentially the same motherboard as the 8500's and are only
missing the video-out circuits (which will probably not supported).

Can anyone explain this, PLEASE!?

Dirk

-- 
               Computer Science, University of Bonn, Germany
               http://titan.informatik.uni-bonn.de/~theisen/
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OOE client library and docs?
Date: 8 Jun 1997 12:35:18 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Message-ID: <5ne8u6$730$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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On 05/27/97, C. David Shaffer wrote:
>
>I'd like to build an OOE client (a document which can contain OOE
>documents) but everything I've read says that the OOE client libs and
>docs must be licensed from Xanthus (LightHouse?).  Is this true?
>Maybe I'll have to live with Object Links.
>
I think (unless anyone cares to contradict?) we can regard OOE as being 
effectively obselete; certainly if you're looking to the future I can't see 
it working on Rhapsody, so unless you have a compelling reason to use it for 
an app which will run "as is" for several years, I'd choose another method.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 


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From: kc@ignem.omnigroup.com (Ken Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Project Header in 4.x PB?
Date: 8 Jun 1997 19:38:55 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Lines: 11
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Christopher Wolf (cwolf@wolfware.com) wrote:
: Has anyone ever figured out what the "Project Header" check-box in
: OpenStep 4.x Project Builder File Attributes inspector does?  I've
: never seen it documented anywhere. 

That publishes the header to all subprojects within the project (so
that other subprojects can import it with just the name, not a path),
but not to other projects (as "Public Header" does).
--
Ken Case			kc@omnigroup.com
Omni Development, Inc.		http://www.omnigroup.com
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
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Date: 8 Jun 1997 03:57:17 GMT
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

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     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Plotting points in a view
Date: 7 Jun 1997 23:13:49 -0400
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 36
Message-ID: <5nd81d$hsp@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
Reply-To: nurban@vt.edu
NNTP-Posting-Host: sps1.phys.vt.edu

I'm trying to create a view subclass that can plot colored points.  The
workhorse method is -plotX:(int)x andY:(int)y withColor:(NSColor *)aColor.
The main intent is to have a view where every pixel has a color, and to
be able to change a pixel's color.  How should I implement this class?
I've been looking at making it a subclass of NSImageView, and plotting
points by modifying the data held by an NSBitmapImageRep and then
compositing the NSImage.  Is this the best way to do it?  It seems
unnecessarily complicated, what with having to convert the NSColor to
bit planes and then writing into the data array (I'm not even sure how
to do that), etc.  I bet there's some DPS operator for plotting points
that I can use in an NSView's -drawRect:.  What are the tradeoffs between
doing that and using an NSImageView?

I guess in the former case, I'd have to subclass NSView and maintain my
own array of colors, which is basically what NSImageView is doing anyway..
(Or maybe not..  I only need to plot..  so maybe I could just plot to a
view, and it would buffer it for me so I wouldn't have to know what I've
plotted in order to redraw.)

If I do go the NSImageView route, I guess I'd have to
modify the NSBitmapImageRep's bitmap data and then invoke
-compositeToPoint:operation: on its image in my -plotX:... method.
(Or instead of using an NSBitmapImageRep, should I subclass NSImageRep
or NSCustomImageRep and use a simple array of static NSColor instances
and override its -draw method to plot them all to a view?  How would I
do that efficiently?)  I suppose the disadvantage of using an
NSImageView is that I could only use it as a grid of colored pixels..
that _is_ the main intent, but I might also want to draw text into it
later or something..  then again, I might put another view on top of it
with alpha transparency and draw into that..

I'm also not quite sure how the NSImage caching works.  If I change the
NSImageRep's data, do I need to inform the NSImage so it can update its
cache, or what?

As you can tell, I really have no idea what I'm doing here..  :)
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Project Header in 4.x PB?
Date: 8 Jun 1997 06:38:53 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5ndk1t$p6l$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: cwolf.vip.best.com
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

Has anyone ever figured out what the "Project Header" check-box in OpenStep 4.x 
Project Builder File Attributes inspector does?  I've never seen it documented 
anywhere. 

- Chris

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: "Robert Norman" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Expand view bounds in scroller?
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 14:08:51 -0700
Organization: NEURODATA
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5nf74c$lev@argentina.earthlink.net>
References: 
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet Mail & News for Macintosh - 3.0

I previously had problems implementing what should have been -- and is -- a
simple operation.  Change the scale of a view expanding or contracting the
horizontal scale with the scroll view properly reflecting the change.  My
mistake was in focusing on the views bounds rather than the frame.  I was
thinking of the frame as the space occupied on the screen, but that is the
job of the scrolled views superviews .  Changing the bounds seems to expand
the postscript scale so that, for example, vertical lines got thicker as I
expanded the bounds - that can be useful where you're zooming a view but not
what I wanted.  The solution is simple:

-(void)changeSpeed: (id) sender
{
    theFrame = [self frame];

    if([sender tag])	 // I'm using two buttons to expand and contract the
view.
        theFrame.size.width *= 2;
    else
        theFrame.size.width /=2;

    [self setFrame: newFrame];
    [self setNeedsDisplay:YES];
}

and voila -- "it  just works" .

The view posts notification by default.  

Thanks to Tom Hageman for pointing me in the right direction.  Hope this
helps,

(Perhaps there should be a channel for us WWDC  newbies so that this channel
is not tied up with mundane programming problems? )

Rob Norman

Wave Master

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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: StabsToCodeView
Date: 9 Jun 1997 12:58:25 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <5ngulh$iu9$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: shark.orcacomputer.com.blacksburg.va.us
X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)


Does anyone know how to use StabsToCodeView.exe which comes with OPENSTEP 4.x 
for NT?

I couldn't find any docs under NT, Mach or NeXTanswers.

Thanks,

Chuck@OrcaComputer.com
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From: emclean@slip.net (Emmett McLean)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 8 Jun 1997 00:49:44 -0700
Organization: Slip.Net
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <5ndo6o$d4n@slip.net>
References: <5lvn4l$tje@src-news.pa.dec.com> <3385FA0F.5439@abacus.com> <*jc-2305972243290001@192.0.2.1> <338DB457.2579@abacus.com>
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In article <338DB457.2579@abacus.com>, Jim Gagnon   wrote:
>
>Interesting.  The long-time NeXT guys tell me that NeXTStep has real
>issues as a server OS.

 I don't believe it.

>  Apparently, if you put more than twelve-or-so
>users on it at a time, it really bogs down.

  Depends on the machine, an 030 running NS 3.0 with 16 Megs of RAM
  will slow up once there are about 15+ users.

  An 040/33 machine running NS 3.3 with 64 Megs of RAM will handle
  25+ users nicely.

  That's my experience based upon my programming expericnce with 
  NS 3.0 and NS 3.1 at San Francisco State.

>   Also, there's a limit of 200 processes in NeXTStep, which is 
>actually pretty low for even a client-side OS.

  The limit is more like 400. I know this because in the graduate
  Operating Systems each year there is a project on creating threads
  and almost every year someone forgets to put a time out wrapper
  on the threads he creates and brings down the entire system by
  creating hundreds of new processes. We've been able to watch
  the number of processes as the machine slows to death. 400
  based upon this experience is the limit. After about 300 the
  the machine is effectively useless.

>  To top it off, a NeXTStep system really needs the
>protection of a firewall -- security is definitely behind the levels
>defined by Solaris and AIX.

 Well, I'd take NS over NT anyday.

 Are you comparing a sparc to a cube? Not a fair comparison since
 a sparc costs about 20 times more.

 Or are you refering to NS running under Solaris?

>  Apple may have cancelled updates to AIX (and who can blame them), but
>they've got some work before Rhapsody is up to snuff as a standalone
>Server.

 They could have done a lot worse than NS.

 I don't expect Rhapsody compete with Sun in the 100,000$+ market.

 But expect Rhapsody will be terrific, much better than it is now,
 in its areas of strength. Like DTP and video/audio stuff.
 NS is pretty good in these areas now - even without Apple.

 Emmett

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From: jroepcke@compusmart.ab.ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Hair Pulling with my first stab at IB! (please help :-))
Date: 8 Jun 1997 18:54:53 GMT
Organization: Roepcke Computing Solutions
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <5nev5t$bqg$1@news.sas.ab.ca>
Reply-To: jroepcke@compusmart.ab.ca
NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.209.44.243
X-Newsreader: IBM NewsReader/2 2.0

Hi Folks,

First off, I'm a real OpenStep developer newbie... but I'm
very pumped about shedding that status ASAP!

I'm also a bit stubborn... here's an example:


In the book "Discovering OpenStep: A Developer Tutorial",
on page 27, it says:

"Select the Images display of the nib file window.

Drag the NSReturnSign image to the main window and drop it
over the button.

If you check the attributes of the button in the Inspector
panel, you'll notice two things have been added: 
NSReturnSign is now listed as [...]"...


Well friends, I don't have a NSReturnSign icon in the
images display! (OpenStep 4.1 Intel, User+Dev+EOF 2.0)

The picture shows:

NSHighlighted
NSHighlighted...
NSRadioButton
NSReturnSign
NSSwitch

I've got:

NSHighlighted
NSHighlighted...
NSRadioButton
NSSwitch

This sucks! ;-)  Where is it?  I looked everywhere, and
I can't find it... if I load the project
/NextDeveloper/Examples/AppKit/CurrencyConverter/PB.project
(or whatever it's called) and open the nib file, the
button in the window shows the NSReturnSign icon, and the
button's inspector lists it, but the images display
doesn't have the icon in it!  (I've tried resizing and
scrolling the window -- it's not there...)

Does anyone know what the problem is?  Installing
OpenStep Developer went fine, I think....

So, I'm stubborn because I don't want to continue until I
know what's up with IB and this NSReturnSign.  Now, I'm
pretty sure that the book is at OpenStep 4.0 level, but I
still want to know why I don't have that icon.

My thinking is, "if that's missing, what else might be?".

Can people please check their IB's image displays and
tell me if they have that (on OS 4.1).

And if possible, explain what's going on, and ensure me
that I can/should continue on :-)

I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks a bunch,

Jim Roepcke

PS: If you could cc: your reply to my e-mail address, I'd really
appreciate it... with all the e-mail I read nowadays (mailing
lists), I rarely get time to read usenet :-(  This is the first
time in a long time, unfortunately.

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From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp (Penrose Christopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSSplitView AddSubview: gives lockFocus assertion error
Date: 08 Jun 1997 12:04:08 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Kanagawa Japan
Lines: 25
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ccs00.sfc.keio.ac.jp


Hi Folks!

I am trying to add more than one SoundView to an NSSplitView.

The code:

	aSoundView = [[SoundView alloc] initWithFrame:newFrame];
	[aSoundView setSound:aSound];
        [aSplitView addSubview:aSoundView];

The above code gives this error when a second view is added:

Jun  8 20:34:31 Mr.MixUp[1671] *** Assertion failure in -[MrSoundView
lockFocus], NSView.m:1849
Jun  8 20:34:31 Mr.MixUp[1671] lockFocus sent to a view which is not
in a window

lockFocus complains that the view isn't in a window, but addSubview
should associate the SoundView with a window.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Christopher Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
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From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp (Penrose Christopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Detail: NSSplitView addSubview: lockFocus assertion failure
Date: 08 Jun 1997 12:58:03 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Kanagawa Japan
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ccs01.sfc.keio.ac.jp


Greetings NeXTpatriots:

I must indicate that this scenario is occuring in Openstep 4.1.

In my last post, I indicated that I was receiving lockFocus assertion
failures when I attempted to add more than one SoundView to an
NSSplitView:

	aSoundView = [[SoundView alloc] initWithFrame:newFrame];
        [aSoundView setSound:aSound];
        [aSplitView addSubview:aSoundView];

Jun  8 20:34:31 Mr.MixUp[1671] *** Assertion failure in -[MrSoundView
lockFocus], NSView.m:1849
Jun  8 20:34:31 Mr.MixUp[1671] lockFocus sent to a view which is not
in a window


Using identical code, I created NSTextViews inside the NSSplitView
with no problem at all.  I can make as many as I like.

Is this another never to be fixed SoundView bug?  Does any one have
any information regarding a possible workaround?  I had this identical
problem with another application I just wrote, my fix was to
resignMain from the current window while I attached a new SoundView.
This allows me to add the first SoundView (I only use one per window
in my other application), but not subsequent SoundViews in my current
application.

Again, if anyone has any information regarding a possible work around
(or better yet, source code for SoundView) please don't hesitate to
contact me.  Email preferred:

Chris Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
penrose@music.princeton.edu
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From: j-ochs@nwu.edu (Joshua Ochs)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Sun, 08 Jun 1997 20:44:48 -0600
Organization: Northwestern University, Evanston, IL, US
Lines: 70
Message-ID: 
References: <338b6960.76768104@news.pdnt.com>  <5mr0tm$opq$3@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>
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It's in the details. When you order, you need your customer number, which
you get as part of the developer program. The program is worth paying the
$250 for - not only do you get teh developer mailing, you'll get MacOS 8,
betas of 9, Rhapsody Dev release, Premeir release, and betas of Unified.
The reason I only list betas of unified and Mac OS 9 is that your
membership would run out in June 98 - just before they ship. It's worth
it.

On another note, for those that are in Apple Dev programs and ordered the
OpenStep tools, did anyone get them? I ordered before they announced it to
developers (thank you EvangeList), but never received a confirmation or
anything. I am desperate to get started with this.


 - Joshua Ochs
Diamond Software


In article <5mr0tm$opq$3@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, gutier@unixg.ubc.ca (Gerald
Gutierrez) wrote:

>Let's see ... for someone to be able to have a look at Rapsody for "free", 
>and thus potentially gain Apple many more Rhapsody supporters who may 
>previously not have connections with Apple or even NeXT, that someone has 
>to be already registered with Apple's Developer Program.
>
>Either : 
>
>1) being a member of Apple's Developer Program is free ( which I don't 
>believe so ), or
>
>2) the word "free" is being used incredibly loosely, or
>
>3) this is one big huge lie.
>
>: Are you a developer registered with Apple's Developer Program? Have you
>: signed the Seed Agreement? If so:
>
>: >Additional information on the WWDC Prelude to Rhapsody package may be 
>: >found at
>
>: >: >..html>. To request your free OpenStep tools (Part Number R0724ZA) today, 
>: >contact us in one of the following ways:
>: >
>: >Phone
>: >1-800-282-2732 Toll Free (US)
>: >1-800-637-0029 Toll Free (Canada)
>: >1-716-871-6555 International
>: >
>: >Email
>: >order.adc@apple.com
>: >
>: >FAX
>: >716-871-6511
>: >
>
>: So there... it is free!
>
>: Mike
>
>
>
>--
>
>   `'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'`'
>
>               Gerald Gutierrez                Computer Engineering
>                                            Faculty of Applied Science
>             gutier@unixg.ubc.ca          University of British Columbia
####################################################################
Message-ID: <33942496.52A0@gcomm.com>
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 16:05:10 +0200
From: ablasco@gcomm.com
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: gcc compile under OS4.1?
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Timothy J. Wood wrote:
> 
>   There appears to be some interaction between the shared library support
> added for 4.0 and gcc 2.7.2.x.  One alternative would be to use the
> GNUSource.pkg available from OS4.2.  This contains a modified version of
> 2.7.2.1.  You may be able to apply the patches between 2.7.2.1 and 2.7.2.2
> to this version and get something that will build on OS 4.1.
> 
>   You shouldn't have to buy OS4.2 in order to get the GNUSource.pkg,
> of course.  I don't know if Apple makes it available on their web site or
> if you'll just need to find someone with a copy that you can ftp.
> 
> Konstantin Wiesel  writes:
> >I tried to compile Gcc 2.7.2.2 under OS4.1. It compile the stage1 compiler
> >but compiling stage 2 with stage 1 fails. The getattr programm bus errors
> >and make stops the compiling process. Does anybody had mor luck with this
> >one?
> 
> >Regards
> >Konstantin Wiesel
> >Email:kwiesel@mailhost.jura.uni-bonn.de
> 
> -tim

Sorry for this question, but why do you need this version of the
compiler? What advantages has over the compiler that comes with my 3.3
dev version? Sorry for this stupid question, but I am virtually lost in
the Next/Openstep world.

P.S Where can I get that version of the compiler and Perl?

TIA
Amando Blasco
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From: msb@plexare.com (Michael S. Barthelemy)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Finding intersection point of two paths in PostScript
Date: 9 Jun 1997 17:53:42 GMT
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I need to be able to find where two paths intersect in PostScript.  If the  
paths intersect multiple times, I need to be able to figure out which point is  
the first intersection given a point on one of the paths which will be  
considered the starting point of that path.

Any pointers (no pun intended) on how to accomplish this would be greatly  
appreciated. 

Thanks,

Mike Barthelemy
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Beginner question... Moveable text box?
Date: 8 Jun 1997 12:28:34 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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On 06/04/97, Erik M. Buck wrote:
> This is a VERY bad user interface idea.  I do not know of any 
> implementations like that.  (Except in obsolete  Windows versions!)
>
>What you are describing is multiple windows with scolling text for content.  
>Why limit the "extended NSScrollView ...  (preferably with a title bar, 
>resize handle, and button to iconize it)" to the inside of another window ?  
>
I agree that it sounds poor in UI terms.. it would be good if you could come 
up with a metaphor analagous to the (NeXT) Window UI rather than *exactly* 
the same, since this would give an inconsistent interface (Windows within 
Windows don't feature anywhere else); furthermore you may face a problem if 
you port to another version of OpenStep (say you want to deploy on 
Rhapsody/NT)... what UI do you use?

Assuming you sort this out, though, rather than "extending" the 
NSScrollView, I'd have thought the better approach would be to create a new 
compound Object, based around a View; it will comprise a number of elements 
-- subviews -- including a title bar (which itself will have an iconise 
button), resize Buttons, and the NSScrollView itself..?

Best wishes,

mmalc.



-- 


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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Impressed
Date: 8 Jun 97 17:01:59 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
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  I've been programming using the Prelude for Rhapsody stuff for about two
weeks now (actually less than that because a lot of time was spent just
getting the stuff installed correctly). I went through the three sample
programs that were in the books that came with the cds.
  This weekend I decided I would start working on something of my own. In
two days I've created a subclass of NSBox that can be dragged around a
window when grabbed on its edges, can be resized if grabbed in the lower
right corner, and contains an NSTextView with a horizontal ruler and the
attributes menu and scrollbars.

  I'm mirroring on NeXT a project we're doing in Java. In just a few hours
work on the weekend I've done more than we've done in a month of Java work.
(Hell, in Java 1.0.2 not even something as basic as scrolling is free!).

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: bozack@zobak.org (Daft.)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: compiling gcc 2.7.2.2 under openstep 4.1
Date: 9 Jun 1997 17:17:41 GMT
Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 
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I've compiled and installed gcc 2.7.2.2 under openstep 4.1, but execution
of any binary compiled with gcc results in a bus error.

Is there anything special I should be doing when compiling/installing
gcc?  I get not so much as a warning during compilation.

Thanks,
Dan
tform
medical signal processing application -- this based on reading the next docs
and absorbing the general hype about openstep development.   

When I returned home, my potential client supplied me with a PC that did not
have SCSI etc, and used some non-standard sound boards.  I purchased my own
SCSI controller and disk, got the stuff installed with a minimum of fuss,
and then started out on the Tutorials...  again just a few glitches that
were solved in this newsgroup.

Now I've produced a demonstration package for my client that builds a signal
(sin wave, square wave) dyamically in one view. You move sliders to change
the amplitude, frequency, noise content, and phase of the waveform and the
wave updates as you drag the sliders.  This was to test the graphics and the
results were impressive.  The waveforms update very fast with no disturbing
screen update garbage.  I'm just using PSxxxx calls to do the graphics.

I then connected a duplicate of that view to an FFT buffer and connected the
waveform to the FFT controller.  The second waveform view displays the FFT
analysis also dynamically.  

I'm impressed with the speed of the code, the speed of coding, and the fact
that during all the development I never -- never-- crashed the system even
though I'm using pointers to data arrays!  There is still a lot to learn but
this seems to be a great system both from the point of view of the
programmer, but also and more important from the user perspective.  I love
the display postscript screen envirionment.

Looking forward to working with this package --and to the necessary support
of this group.

Rob


Robert Norman
Wave Master Software
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From: matt@colorpar.com (Matt Gieselman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 13:42:32 -0800
Organization: The Color Partnership
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In article ,
j-ochs@nwu.edu (Joshua Ochs) wrote:

 
> On another note, for those that are in Apple Dev programs and ordered the
> OpenStep tools, did anyone get them? I ordered before they announced it to
> developers (thank you EvangeList), but never received a confirmation or
> anything. I am desperate to get started with this.

Joshua,

We just got the bundle today, we did send in a request for it and
we are on the Technology Seeding program.  I don't know which got
us the bundle.

Regards,
Matt

--------------------------------------------------------------
Matt Gieselman  
Software Engineer and Juggler                      
The Color Partnership
matt@colorpar.com
www.colorpar.com
-------------------------------------------------------------
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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Date: 9 Jun 1997 21:39:31 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
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Joshua Ochs (j-ochs@nwu.edu) wrote:
: It's in the details. When you order, you need your customer number, which
: you get as part of the developer program. The program is worth paying the
: $250 for - not only do you get teh developer mailing, you'll get MacOS 8,
: betas of 9, Rhapsody Dev release, Premeir release, and betas of Unified.
: The reason I only list betas of unified and Mac OS 9 is that your
: membership would run out in June 98 - just before they ship. It's worth
: it.

Speaking of the developer program, I joined, but I've no idea what my
identification number is. I received my big brown box o'stuff. No sign
of an id #, as far as I could see. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Jon
--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: "Robert A. Decker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Beginner question... Moveable text box?
Date: 8 Jun 97 22:45:12 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan ITD News Server
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On Sun, Jun 8, 1997 8:28 AM, mmalcolm crawford
 wrote:
>I'd have thought the better approach would be to create a new 
>compound Object, based around a View; it will comprise a number of
elements 
>-- subviews -- including a title bar (which itself will have an iconise 
>button), resize Buttons, and the NSScrollView itself..?

  So far I've come up with something simpler, but I love how it turned out.
It's a subclass of NSBox, with the contentview set to an NSScrollview which
contains a text view. I'm able to grab the box on any of its four edges and
drag it around. I'm also able to grab it at the lower right corner to
resize it (thereby resizing all the views it contains).
  The content of the box has scrollers, and one of those ruler dealies.
It's excellent! (I still have to come up with the way I'll iconize it
though).

rob
--

Listen to my Realaudio
playlist:
Programmer Analyst - Health Media Research Lab
University of Michigan Comprehensive Cancer Center 

"Get A Life" quote #10: "Wow. I'm a genius too. I think. BEEP." 
-Chris Elliott


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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: 9 Jun 1997 23:52:42 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.programmer Jonathan Hendry  wrote:
> Speaking of the developer program, I joined, but I've no idea what my
> identification number is. I received my big brown box o'stuff. No sign
> of an id #, as far as I could see. Any ideas?

How long did it take? I haven't gotten my stuff yet. 

-- 
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 ::
ut only to those who have signed the NDA.
Plenty of time to get that done before it ships, though.
-- 

                            Cliff

                        =============
                        Maui no ka oi
                        =============
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From: eric@skatter.USask.Ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Appending to text object
Date: 9 Jun 1997 19:42:38 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
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When debugging software I find it handy to have a scrollable text display to show 
diagnostic messages. Here's the method I'm now using:

- (void)displayf:(NSString *)format, ...
{
    va_list argList;
    NSString *text;

    va_start (argList, format);
    text = [[NSString alloc] initWithFormat:format arguments:argList];
    [displayText replaceCharactersInRange:(NSRange){[[displayText string] length],0}
                                                                   withString:text];
    [displayText scrollRangeToVisible:(NSRange){[[displayText string] length],0}];
    [text release];
    va_end (format);
}

This seems like an awful lot of effort, though.  I'm also a litle concerned about the 
amount of work that has to get done by the two [[displayText string] length] calls, too.

So, are there any Appkit/Foundatation kit experts out there that can suggest a better way 
of handling this?
-- 
Eric Norum                                 eric@skatter.usask.ca
Saskatchewan Accelerator Laboratory        Phone: (306) 966-6308
University of Saskatchewan                 FAX:   (306) 966-6058
Saskatoon, Canada.                         NeXTMail accepted.
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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Loading bundles in Windows NT
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 06:24:49 -0600
Organization: ErgoTech
Lines: 53
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Brian Schack wrote:
> Does the bundle try to reference a variable or function declared in
> the main program?  If so, then you'll have to jump through some hoops
> (courtesy of the WindowsNT linker).  Basically, all variables and
> functions that are need to be global to the bundles and the main
> program should be put into a framework (read "DLL").
There's actually a linker option, which is memory serves correctly is
something like "-ignore undefined" that will allow the bundle to be
built and reference some things in the main program.  I haven't
exhaustively tested this, in my case the only reference I needed was the
superclass of the object in the bundle.  You _do_ still need to link
with any frameworks.  One side effect is that the bundle actually seems
to load.  

On NT both frameworks and bundles are .dll files, which, I believe, are
always shared.  Does anyone know if bundles under Mach 4.0 are shared? 
Frameworks are almost useless on NT unless you know the classes in the
frameworks before you start to run the application (i.e. you could have
coded the whole thing in C++ without a real runtime).  Since bundles are
shared they seem an acceptable alternative.  On Mach 4.0 frameworks
dynamically load correctly, that is, you can get the principle class
etc. etc.  Bundles would be acceptable, if they are shared.  I'd hate to
have to build different stuctures on different operating systems.

I still don't have a solution to the problem of DO not decoding and
object passed by-copy when that object is linked to the application in a
framework.  There seems to be no mechanism to cause the framework to
load other than hard coding a reference to something in the framework
within the main application.  Anyone have any more insight into this. 
Sharing a framework between a client and a server so that objects can be
copied from one to the other would seem to be a fairly common design. 
Choosing the framework at run-time is a logical extension.

Finally, the real strength of NS3.3 for ISV's was a great component
architecture.  The ability to load, and unload components _easily_ was a
feature used by us and others in building applications that were
sufficiently far ahead of the curve to stay in business.  Proving that
NeXT/Apple entirely missed this point and really hurt some of the few
remaining ISV's on NS, the unloading mechanism is TOTALLY broken on
4.x.  Some of this _may_ return in Rhaposody, eventually.

At WWDC the demise of Lighthouse was lamented not because their products
were necessarily better than the alternatives, but because they were
open, component architecture.  Many people had added features to
Lighthouse applications that were unique to their business.  It is
Lighthouse's task to recreate this same functionality in Java, and that
would appear to be, in part, is why Sun bought them.  At the same time
that Sun is busy promoting JavaBeans and an open component architecture,
NeXT/Apple is busy breaking the architecture that they had.

Is anyone else frustrated by this and the time waste that surrounds it?

Jim
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From: John Zachary 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 16:04:35 -0500
Organization: LSU Robotics Research Laboratory
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Matt Gieselman wrote:
> 
> In article ,
> j-ochs@nwu.edu (Joshua Ochs) wrote:
> 
> 
> > On another note, for those that are in Apple Dev programs and ordered the
> > OpenStep tools, did anyone get them? I ordered before they announced it to
> > developers (thank you EvangeList), but never received a confirmation or
> > anything. I am desperate to get started with this.
> 
> Joshua,
> 
> We just got the bundle today, we did send in a request for it and
> we are on the Technology Seeding program.  I don't know which got
> us the bundle.
> 
> Regards,
> Matt
> 


If this is OpenStep 4.2 you are looking for, I ordered an edu copy
last week (W). The Apple rep told me that OS4.2 was made available
that day. Perhaps this is the reason for your delay.



-- 
John Zachary
LSU Robotics Research Laboratory
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From: Susan Hovde 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: kernel loader inactive - Rhapsody
Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 14:21:58 -0600
Organization: NOAA Aeronomy Lab
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After installing the first round of Prelude to Rhapsody installation,
the instructions on the screen said to make sure there was no diskette
in the floppy drive and press RETURN to continue.  I ejected the drivers
diskette and pressed RETURN.  The system started to reboot. At the boot:
prompt I typed -v and pressed RETURN.  The screen now shows a window
with the title "NeXT Mach Operating System" and a lot of lines referring
to registering devices, checking disks, and using default tables.  The
last line is:

kernel loader inactive, pausing

What should I do now?  This seems to indicate an error.  This is the
third time I have tried to install this system.  The first time, I got
it installed all the way, but when using the screen control panel, I
somehow caused the screen to go blank and I could not figure out how to
get it back, so I decided to reinstall.  Then the system hung while
copying files from the CD.  This time, the copying went ok but now I'm
stuck with this inactive kernel loader!  ;-)

Thanks for any help.

Susan
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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
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David Young (daver@jacobs.Geeks.ORG) wrote:
: In comp.sys.next.programmer Jonathan Hendry  wrote:
: > Speaking of the developer program, I joined, but I've no idea what my
: > identification number is. I received my big brown box o'stuff. No sign
: > of an id #, as far as I could see. Any ideas?

: How long did it take? I haven't gotten my stuff yet. 

The box came quite soon, sooner than I'd expected. I believe
I mailed my application on May 12. (The check is dated May 11, which
was a Sunday, so I assume I mailed the app. on Monday.) I got it a
couple of weeks later. 

--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: "Jurriaan van der Lingen" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Loading bundles in Windows NT
Date: 10 Jun 1997 09:17:56 GMT
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Jurriaan van der Lingen (me)  wrote in article 
> Does anyone have experience with dynamic bundles in windows NT.
> I have bundles included as "bproj" in the project.
> This runs fine with dynamic bundles  on mach (OPENSTEP 4.0)
> Also it runs fine on Windows NT when I use the very same code in
"subproj"
> instead of "bproj"
> 
> Help appreciated, Thanks!
>

Stephane Corthesy wrote:
> In NeXTanswer  ??? (I don't remember which one...), you can find the
answer 
> to this problem with NT: you need to add the frameworks you use into the 
> bundles too, not only into the main project.

This was NeXTanswer 2462, including these was necessary but not sufficient.

Brian Scheck wrote:
> Does the bundle try to reference a variable or function declared in
> the main program?  If so, then you'll have to jump through some hoops
> (courtesy of the WindowsNT linker).  Basically, all variables and
> functions that are need to be global to the bundles and the main
> program should be put into a framework (read "DLL").

That turned out to be the problem. However, instead of going through the
bother of converting my app into a framework, I decided to wrap these
functions and global variables into a class: The NT linker / DLL loader has
no problem knitting classes together.

For other people it may be interesting to know how to find out exactly
which cross-calls you make in your bproj before you get the crash in some
remote corner of the bundle that only end users seem to find.

Jim Redman wrote:
> There's actually a linker option, which is memory serves correctly is
> something like "-ignore undefined" that will allow the bundle to be
> built and reference some things in the main program.  I haven't
> exhaustively tested this, in my case the only reference I needed was the
> superclass of the object in the bundle.  You _do_ still need to link
> with any frameworks.  One side effect is that the bundle actually seems
> to load.  

I looked up the option, which is "-undefined error" or "-undefined
warning". The problem is that with this options the unresolved ObjC
references prevent linking, while they are resolved correctly in run time.

The output of the default linker option gives you clues. It says like:
MyFile.o:error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol __MyGlobalFunction
MyFile.o:error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol .objc_class_name_MyClass

The class references, are no problem. The function references and global
variables will crash. So with the linker output, I tracked down these
globals, wrapped them in a class and my problem was solved.

Thanks everybody!

Jurriaan van der Lingen




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From: cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
References: <5lvn4l$tje@src-news.pa.dec.com> <*jc-2305972243290001@192.0.2.1> <338DB457.2579@abacus.com> <5ndo6o$d4n@slip.net>
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In article <5ndo6o$d4n@slip.net>, Emmett McLean  wrote:
>In article <338DB457.2579@abacus.com>, Jim Gagnon   wrote:
>>
>>Interesting.  The long-time NeXT guys tell me that NeXTStep has real
>>issues as a server OS.
>
> I don't believe it.

Believe it.  I love my cube (twin ND's) and intel box, but MachOS is not 
quite up to snuff as an application server.  I don't know about hosting 
multiple users and shell activity, etc. but there are some definite bugs 
and limitations in the OS and object layer wrt network applications.

There is a hard limit on the number of active TCP sockets, a limit run into 
by people serving http.  It also affects DO traffic quite severely.  DO 
uses two TCP sockets per object connection. (Well, at least two per 
machine are used. nmserver may multiplex its connections for all 
programs on a given machine.)  The network and other I/O drivers are quite 
slow compared to Solaris or linux or BSD.

I support a true DO application which brings down a random machine at 
least once a day.  Now, much of this instability is probably due to poor 
program design, but a user level program does manage to panic a PPro 200 
w/ 256MB of RAM running either NS 3.3 or OS 4.1.

Yeah, I'd say there are some issues for NeXTstep as a server OS _today_.  
Rhapsody can be better and very likely will be.

> Well, I'd take NS over NT anyday.

Amen to that.

	-Chris

-- 
Christopher Douty -  Rogue Engineer trapped in a land of software
	cdouty@netcom.com
"Frequently the messages have meaning; that is they refer to or are correlated
according to some system with physical or conceptual entities.  These semantic
aspects of communication are irrelevant to the engineering problem." -Shannon
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Appending to text object
Date: 10 Jun 1997 05:34:08 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <5nhmbe$42v@tribune.usask.ca> eric@skatter.USask.Ca writes:
> When debugging software I find it handy to have a scrollable text display  
to show 
> diagnostic messages. Here's the method I'm now using:

What's wrong with 'fprintf( stderr , ... )'?  You can either start
the app manually and have the output go to the local terminal window,
or view it in another terminal window with 'tail -f /tmp/console.log'.
(The workspace console is too slow).

Marcel
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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Loading bundles in Windows NT
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 06:11:06 -0600
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Jurriaan van der Lingen wrote:

> 
> Jim Redman wrote:
> > There's actually a linker option, which is memory serves correctly is
> > something like "-ignore undefined" that will allow the bundle to be
> > built and reference some things in the main program.  I haven't
> > exhaustively tested this, in my case the only reference I needed was the
> > superclass of the object in the bundle.  You _do_ still need to link
> > with any frameworks.  One side effect is that the bundle actually seems
> > to load.
> 
> I looked up the option, which is "-undefined error" or "-undefined
> warning". The problem is that with this options the unresolved ObjC
> references prevent linking, while they are resolved correctly in run time.
> 
> The output of the default linker option gives you clues. It says like:
> MyFile.o:error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol __MyGlobalFunction
> MyFile.o:error LNK2001: unresolved external symbol .objc_class_name_MyClass
> 
> The class references, are no problem. The function references and global
> variables will crash. So with the linker output, I tracked down these
> globals, wrapped them in a class and my problem was solved.
> 
My apologies, I should do my homework before posting.  The option I've
been using is "-undefined suppress".  This allows you to build the
executable with the superclass of the class (or presumably classes) of
the objects in the bundle undefined and a part of the main application,
not a framework.  I agree with you that this solution is limited to this
one specific case.  I've just tested variables and functions with
"supress" and one or the other, or both doesn't work, that is the
application will crash.  You can still reference variables and, I
assume, functions loaded in Frameworks so long as you link against the
framework.

Jim
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Impressed
Date: 10 Jun 1997 15:07:19 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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"Robert Norman"  writes
> 
> Now I've produced a demonstration package for my client that builds a
> signal (sin wave, square wave) dyamically in one view. You move sliders
> to change the amplitude, frequency, noise content, and phase of the
> waveform and the wave updates as you drag the sliders.  This was to test
> the graphics and the results were impressive.  The waveforms update very
> fast with no disturbing screen update garbage.  I'm just using PSxxxx 
> calls to do the graphics.

Yes, but can you draw 3D perspective text along the waves in six different 
transfer modes and three different languages with different orientations?
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT

PS: Ain't I a stinker? 8^) 8^) 8^)
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From: "Travis Griggs" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Physical Memory Driver
Date: 9 Jun 1997 17:37:46 GMT
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Does NeXT/Rhapsody support/have a physical memory driver? In days gone by,
we could (using HP-UX) lock down a chunk of kernel memory and read directly
from it. This makes for quick transfers from external devices (e.g. machine
vision cameras :) ). We have been *sorely* dissapointed with NT in this
regard because it will not allow this. It does a buffered copy (i.e. read,
write, read) from kernel space to user space, unless one wants to fork over
huge dough for a HAL development kit. Given such, we have had to compromise
by only getting a sampling of data.

Thanks...

-- 
Travis Griggs
Key Technology
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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Physical Memory Driver
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 12:25:33 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
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In article <01bc74fb$ac4de290$74c728c0@tgriggs4> "Travis Griggs"  
 writes:
> Does NeXT/Rhapsody support/have a physical memory driver? In days gone  
by,
> we could (using HP-UX) lock down a chunk of kernel memory and read  
directly
> from it. This makes for quick transfers from external devices (e.g.  
machine
> vision cameras :) ). We have been *sorely* dissapointed with NT in this
> regard because it will not allow this. It does a buffered copy 

There are pretty good facilities for doing this...

Basically (to loop over the buzzwords):You would need to write a suitable  
driver for your hardware using Driver kit. This uses MiG to generate a  
user api. Mach messaging is used for the transfer of data, such that (if  
you're carefull) you get a copy on write version of the data - ie there's  
no overhead to the copy, but you can't change the kernel version (best of  
both worlds).

One problem I have had doing this is that there are problems allocating  
LARGE blocks of memory inside the kernel. kalloc CAN fail (depite what the  
manual tells you) - you just need to push it hard enough (about 30Meg is  
enough). Alocating such big chunks sounds silly, but if you've got a fast  
device delivering Hires images it's about the only option! (workaround is  
to wire the memory at boot time! The machines have 256Meg anyway, so  
they're not going to miss it)

$an
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From: "Mathias M. Lang" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: bootproblems
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 14:40:39 +0200
Organization: Yoyodyne Posting Systems, INN Lab.
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Hi, 
my cube want not boot, and gives me the messagees:
localhost: loginwindow: could not find WindowServer port
localhost: kern_loader: server fbw running up waiting for executable
/mach
localhost: kern_loader: server midi running up waiting for executable
/mach and so on.
can anybody helps me
bebeto
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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 10 Jun 1997 17:55:01 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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In comp.sys.next.programmer Jim Gagnon  wrote:
> John Christie wrote:
> Interesting.  The long-time NeXT guys tell me that NeXTStep has real
> issues as a server OS.  Apparently, if you put more than twelve-or-so
> users on it at a time, it really bogs down.  Also, there's a limit of
> 200 processes in NeXTStep, which is actually pretty low for even a
> client-side OS.  To top it off, a NeXTStep system really needs the
> protection of a firewall -- security is definitely behind the levels
> defined by Solaris and AIX.

I think your info may be based on 6-8 year old NeXT black hardware running 
an equally old version of the OS.

Steve

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From: logi27@imaginet.fr (Logi27 Development Team)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Openstep and Sofware installation (installer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 18:00:54 +0200
Organization: LOGI 27
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Hello everybody,

I am new to OpenSetp world (comming from mac one ! suprising isn't it ?)

My Concern is about software installation.

Is there any software installer in the Openstep tool chest ?
And if yes how it is ?
Does it provide a tool to make its configuration easier ?
Can it be used for our sofware installation ?

What about the insatllation above Windows NT/95 ? (in the same mind)

thanks a lot,
a Macintosh Developper
a+
Paul Plaquette

-- 
LOGi 27 a Small Macintosh First Deveopment Compagny
email : LOGi27@Imaginet.fr
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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep and Sofware installation (installer)
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 17:06:12 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
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In article   
logi27@imaginet.fr (Logi27 Development Team) writes:
> Is there any software installer in the Openstep tool chest ?
/NextAdmin/Installer.app.

> And if yes how it is ?
It's used universally by all commercial software, and has been around for  
five years in a stable from.

> Does it provide a tool to make its configuration easier ?
> Can it be used for our sofware installation ?
Yes, though how you set it up is not widly known. I did it a few yeras  
back, but don't remember the detail. There are commandline tools hidden  
inside the app to generate packages.

Interestingly I also discovered, it has a mode to install via ftp. No idea  
how to trigger it though.

> What about the insatllation above Windows NT/95 ? (in the same mind)
Same app. Haven't used it though.

$an
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From: msoori@*genetics.bio-rad.com (msoori)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs
Subject: Monitor problems with NeXT
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 09:56:50 +0100
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I am new to OpenStep from the Mac...  I have installed Prelude to Rapsody
on an intel box with and using a generic s3 video card.  It works fine on
my 21" Apple multi sync monitor and another pc monitor, but it dosent work
on the radius Two Page Display/21gs gray scale monitor (which is fixed
resolution at 1152x870 at 75hz)  I cant find any display modes on the Next
that displays at this resolution.  The closest one listed is 1152x864. 
I'd like to use the color monitor for work and keep the gray scale one
hooked to the next box so I can learn about OpenStep.  What gives?  Please
respond by e-mail.

Thanks,
Mahesh.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No spam for me mam!  Remove * from e-mail address to reply.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Mahesh P. Sooriarachchi.                                               ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ Work:      msoori@*genetics.bio-rad.com       |                        ~
~ Personal:  mahesh@*value.net                  |  This space for rent!  ~
~ Home Page: http://value.net/~mahesh/work.html |                        ~
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From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 21:30:31 -0300
Organization: ISINet, Nova Scotia
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In article <5nk4dl$q7d$1@owl>, Steve Dekorte  wrote:

> In comp.sys.next.programmer Jim Gagnon  wrote:
> > John Christie wrote:
> > Interesting.  The long-time NeXT guys tell me that NeXTStep has real
> > issues as a server OS.  Apparently, if you put more than twelve-or-so
> > users on it at a time, it really bogs down.  Also, there's a limit of
> > 200 processes in NeXTStep, which is actually pretty low for even a
> > client-side OS.  To top it off, a NeXTStep system really needs the
> > protection of a firewall -- security is definitely behind the levels
> > defined by Solaris and AIX.
> 
> I think your info may be based on 6-8 year old NeXT black hardware running 
> an equally old version of the OS.
> 
> Steve

I never wrote any of this.  Please quote correctly.

thankyou

-- 
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.

Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
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From: REMOVE.TO.REPLY.drg@biomath.mdacc.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 23:43:57 -0500
Organization: Univ. Texas M.D. Anderson Cancer Center
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In article , cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty) wrote:

> Yeah, I'd say there are some issues for NeXTstep as a server OS _today_.  
> Rhapsody can be better and very likely will be.

They're certainly going to try. Plans are to eventually port a server
version of Rhapsody to the Apple Network Server 500 and 700 (the big AIX
boxes), as well as offering server configurations in the cases that
succeed the 9600/8600.

-- 
David Gutierrez
REMOVE.TO.REPLY.drg@biomath.mdacc.tmc.edu     Remove everything before the "drg" to send mail to me. Some junk e-mailers scan .sig files, as well as From: lines, to get addresses.

"Only fools are positive." - Moe Howard
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From: Photoagent@ibm.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Attention All Photographers
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 02:37:55
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                            PHOTO PHOENIX INTERNATIONAL

We are an international New York based agency representing 
professional and amateur photographers in the following areas: Galleries, 
Business and Organizations, Book Publishers, Paper Products, Consumer 
Publication, Newspapers & Newsletters Publication, Special Interest Publication, 
and Trade Publication.

The images we are seeking are some of the following:
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Outdoors/People/Political/Portraits/Still Lifes/Religious/Science/
Sports/Travel.

Whether your work portrays conservative, experimental, stylish, or innovative
themes, your project proposal should be well thought out before submitting to
us.
For first contact, please submit a query letter, and samples of your work.
Please include SASE. 
Do not send entire portfolio unless we ask for it. If we are not interested,
you may not hear from us because of time limitations, so please submit what 
does not need to be returned. If we think your work is sellable we
will respond as quickly as possible.

Send to:
Photo Phoenix International
33-29 58 Street
Woodside, New York  11377
Tele: Florida Branch-(941) 642-660







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From: michael@ninebits.com (Michael Balle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: DO NT/MACH
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 09:37:08 +0200
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Hi,

can distributed objects communicate across platform, ie. can objects in
an OPENSTEP application running on WinNT communicate with and OPENSTEP
application running on a MACH kernel?.

The reason I ask is that the documentation mentions that MACH kernel
messages are used for PDO communication.

regards
Michael
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From: Christian Neuss 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Impressed
Date: 11 Jun 1997 08:56:20 GMT
Organization: Technische Hochschule Darmstadt
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Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
>Yes, but can you draw 3D perspective text along the waves in six different 
>transfer modes and three different languages with different orientations?

ROTFL :-)

Chris
-- 
//  Christian Neuss "static typing? how quaint.."
//  http://www.nexttoyou.de/~neuss/
//  fax: (+49) 6151 16 5472
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From: j-norstad@nwu.edu (John Norstad)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:17:05 -0600
Organization: Northwestern University
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In article ,
REMOVE.TO.REPLY.drg@biomath.mdacc.tmc.edu (David Gutierrez) wrote:

> In article , cdouty@netcom.com (Chris Douty)
wrote:
> 
> > Yeah, I'd say there are some issues for NeXTstep as a server OS _today_.  
> > Rhapsody can be better and very likely will be.
> 
> They're certainly going to try. Plans are to eventually port a server
> version of Rhapsody to the Apple Network Server 500 and 700 (the big AIX
> boxes), as well as offering server configurations in the cases that
> succeed the 9600/8600.

I understand that Apple has a server engineering team devoted to solving
the problems in NeXTStep for server use. There will be separate server and
workstation versions of Rhapsody, like Windows NT. Servers are definitely
one of their target markets for the initial versions of Rhapsody. For
example, the server version will support spanning, striping, and mirroring
file systems, and the core OS will be tuned for server use.

-- 
John Norstad


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From: Patrick Schulz 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DO NT/MACH
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 08:42:26 -0500
Organization: AMD Fab30
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Hi Michael,

Michael Balle wrote:
> can distributed objects communicate across platform, ie. can objects in
> an OPENSTEP application running on WinNT communicate with and OPENSTEP
> application running on a MACH kernel?.

The answer is: YES. All OpenStep compliant DO implementations can
communicate
to each other. That includes OPENSTEP on Mach, NT, PDO for
Solaris/HP-sUX 
AND even Sun's OpenStep Implementation (but not the GNUstep DO system 
[not OS compliant yet]).

The Mach messages system is emulated on non Mach platforms. So it works
the same way, whatever operating system you use.  I recall some articles
in
german magazines about DO/PDO but they are in german ;-)

hope that helps,
Patrick.

-- 

Patrick Schulz; 1704 Nelms Dr. #2025; Austin, TX 78744
email: pschulz@symphony.amd.com (MIME welcome)
-
Microsoft is not the answer, Microsoft is the question 
and the answer is: NO.
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Hair Pulling with my first stab at IB! (please help :-))
Date: 11 Jun 1997 14:41:41 GMT
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In an vain attempt to play to the masses, NeXT removed the return sign 
paradigm and replaced it with the windows like "black bordered" default 
selection indication.  Just proceed without the return sign.

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From: "Timothy J. Luoma" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: compiling new syslog
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:11:11 -0400
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
Lines: 39
Message-ID: 
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I got the new syslog from:

http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/progs/newlog-1.0.4.tar.gz

and tried to make it (it is supposedly setup for NeXT already)

however when I tried to compile, I got this:

cc -g -O -I. -DBad_float_h -arch m68k -arch hppa -arch i386 -arch sparc -c
strtod.c
cc -g -O -I. -DBad_float_h -arch m68k -arch hppa -arch i386 -arch sparc -c
vfprintf.c
libtool -o libnewlog.a snprintf.o vsnprintf.o syslog.o fvwrite.o
strerror.o strtod.o vfprintf.o
ranlib libnewlog.a || true
 -o syslogerr syslogerr.c
Make: Cannot load -o.  Stop.
*** Exit 1
Stop.


Now I think that line that begins ' -o' is supposed to have something
there before it, but by some mistake it is an empty variable.

Can anyone explain this or how to fix?


TjL

BTW: isn't it true that -arch m68k should be the first of the -archs, for
some backwards compatibility reason I can't quite recall (probably
outdated, I think it was something to do with 3.0 or 3.1....)

--
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NeXT bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html
sed 's/End\ of\ sig/pithy\ quotation/g'

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From: "Timothy J. Luoma" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NS3.3: gcc 2.7.2.2 error??
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 12:01:42 -0400
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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I just installed gcc yesterday, so I am trying to compile a lot of
software today....

During said efforts, I came across this


In file included from inet.c:58:
/usr/local/lib/gcc-lib/i386-next-nextstep3/2.7.2.2/include/bsd/memory.h:22:
unterminated `#else' conditional

(when making libpcap-0.2.1)

This looks like a generally bad error, one that might effect more than
just this compilation attempt....

Clues/explanations appreciated...

TjL

--
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NeXT bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html
sed 's/End\ of\ sig/pithy\ quotation/g'


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From: tph@longhorn.uucp (Tom Harrington)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Date: 11 Jun 1997 15:18:21 GMT
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John Norstad (j-norstad@nwu.edu) wrote:
: example, the server version will support spanning, striping, and mirroring

You know you've been on Usenet too long when you misread the above
as "...will support spamming...".

--
Tom Harrington ------- tph@rmii.com ------- http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph
                    "Somebody shoot me!" -Animaniacs
-> Fractal Kit:  http://rainbow.rmii.com/~tph/fractalkit/fractal.html <-
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DO NT/MACH
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:23:59 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 11-Jun-97 DO NT/MACH by
Michael Balle@ninebits.c 
> can distributed objects communicate across platform, ie. can objects in
> an OPENSTEP application running on WinNT communicate with and OPENSTEP
> application running on a MACH kernel?

Yes.  (P)DO and OpenStep distributed object messaging works across
platforms including non-Mach systems because those other operating
systems run a process named 'machd' (or some similar name).

'Machd' handles Mach messages for such operating systems in lieu of the
Mach kernel and 'nmserver', which is the network message server, which
is "responsible for forwarding Mach IPC over the network".

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 13:36:21 -0600
From: beauvois@usa.net
Subject: nib/InterfaceBuilder.h
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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I'm trying to port some code from NS 2.0/1 to 3.3 but can't figure out
what to replace the old  header file with.

Anyone know ?

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From: schwarz@physik.tu-berlin.de (Georg Schwarz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 21:23:35 +0200
Organization: Institut f. Theoretische Physik, TU Berlin
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John Norstad  wrote:


> I understand that Apple has a server engineering team devoted to solving
> the problems in NeXTStep for server use. There will be separate server and
> workstation versions of Rhapsody, like Windows NT. Servers are definitely
> one of their target markets for the initial versions of Rhapsody. For
> example, the server version will support spanning, striping, and mirroring
> file systems, and the core OS will be tuned for server use.

I suscept that the "core OS" will the identical for both the "server"
and "desktop" version though, won't it?

-- 
Georg Schwarz     schwarz@physik.tu-berlin.de, kuroi@cs.tu-berlin.de
Institut fr Theoretische Physik       +49 30 314-24254, FAX -21130
Technische Universitt Berlin        http://home.pages.de/~schwarz/
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From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Prelude2Rhapsody on black hardware!
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:49:27 -0700
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   I finally got around to trying the Prelude OpenStep 4.2 CDROM on my
68040 NextStation Turbo.  After mounting the disc, running Upgrader.app and
then clearing off some disk space by its advice, the install worked!

   After having heard from any number of people "nahhh, it's an Intel only
release" it was a pleasant surprise indeed to see that the discs from WWDC
were actually fat builds for both Intel and "black" NeXT hardware. (So far
I've only installed the User side FWIW)

   However I only have a 240MB HD in that machine, and now it's full. Looks
like I need to swap in a 1GB drive or something before I continue with
installing the "Developer" disc.

Thanks guys!

Rob Barris      Quicksilver Software Inc.  rbarris@quicksilver.com
   * Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer *
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From: goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu (Lloyd Goldwasser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problems compiling after OpenStep conversion
Date: 11 Jun 1997 00:27:56 GMT
Organization: University of California, Santa Barbara
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mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette) wrote:
> (Lloyd Goldwasser) writes:
> > [problems]
> [solutions]

Thanks, Mike.  For a duffer like me, it's an honor to have a problem
that you help solve...

Now I'm pulling my hair out over two other problems that have
arisen since converting.


First is yet another header problem.  When I try to compile, I get
link errors due to undefined symbols:

  /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
  .objc_class_name_NSArray
  .objc_class_name_NSBundle
  ...

although, for instance, every file that has NSArrays definitely
#imports .  The list of undefined symbols
encompasses even things like _SNDAlloc, although I never go near
anything to do with sound.  (1) Why should it have trouble with
Arrays, which I think I'm treating properly; and (2) Why is it
having trouble with stuff that I'm not touching?  I suppose that
I'm #importing something that #imports something that #imports
this stuff, but I'm not doing anything that I didn't do before
converting to 4.1.


Second, the NAN problem that I mentioned still persists.
NAN used to work fine with 3.2; now the compiler gives me

  ediv invalid operation error

although I've #imported  (and tried whatever variants
I can think of).  The #define in math.h _looks_ the same; why
should it be behaving differently?

(I notice also that the sparc header file contains a comment that
this #define needs to be fixed.  I presume that it shouldn't be a
problem for me: I'm compiling for black and sparc, but I'm doing
so on black.  Or _do_ I need to worry?)


Thanks,

Lloyd Goldwasser
goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu
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From: Dru Nelson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSDictionary grammar?
Date: 11 Jun 1997 20:52:04 GMT
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 What is the grammar for an OpenStep NSDictionary object?
 (or where is the documentation)

 Are the initFromFile:/writeToFile:atomically: methods the best
 way of storing little configurations in an ascii format or is
 there a better serializer/persistence methodology? 
 I think Project Builder uses the same method in it's PB.project
 file.

Dru Nelson - dnelson@slip.net - Redwood City, California

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From: decoy_id@no_junk_on_the.net (L e e Altenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 12 Jun 1997 03:46:36 GMT
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In <19970611212335461585@marconi.physik.tu-berlin.de> Georg Schwarz 
wrote:
> John Norstad  wrote:
> 
> 
> > I understand that Apple has a server engineering team devoted to 
solving
> > the problems in NeXTStep for server use. There will be separate 
server and
> > workstation versions of Rhapsody, like Windows NT. Servers are 
definitely
> > one of their target markets for the initial versions of Rhapsody. For
> > example, the server version will support spanning, striping, and 
mirroring
> > file systems, and the core OS will be tuned for server use.
> 
> I suscept that the "core OS" will the identical for both the "server"
> and "desktop" version though, won't it?
> 

Could anyone explain why an OS optimized for use as a server would not 
also be optimal for a workstation?

--
=======================================================================
Lee Altenberg, Ph.D.

Research Affiliate, University of Hawai`i at Manoa
Office:	Maui High Performance Computing Center
		550 Lipoa Parkway, Suite 100, Kihei, Maui HI 96753
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=======================================================================

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From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr
Subject: [Q]Using devices
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	-Which device  (/dev/????) should I use to communicate whith my serial port?
	-How configuring a device?
	-How configuring a port for lauching an executable automatically.
(example : a user connect himself on a port via a modem et man launch a BBS program).

Thanks for help.
--
---------------------------------------
				
			
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					O_O
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From: "Quang Ngo" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Install NeXTSTEP 3.3 on a Pentium 90Mhz w/o Floppy
Date: 12 Jun 1997 04:42:28 GMT
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Something went wrong with my motherboard - everything works fine except the
floppy drive.  The floppy drive and controller card work fine on a
different system.  Anyway, is it possible to install NeXTSTEP 3.3 without a
floppy drive?  The image files (boot and drivers) are on www.next.com.  But
looks like they're no help without a floppy drive.  Any ideas?

-Quang
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From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Re: Openstep and Sofware installation (installer)
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In article ,
Ian Stephenson  wrote:
>In article   
>logi27@imaginet.fr (Logi27 Development Team) writes:
>
>> Does it provide a tool to make its configuration easier ?
>> Can it be used for our sofware installation ?
>Yes, though how you set it up is not widly known. I did it a few yeras  
>back, but don't remember the detail. There are commandline tools hidden  
>inside the app to generate packages.
>

  There's something called "PackageBuilder" that should be on Peak, Peanuts,
etc.  It was for the 3.x Installer but it might work now, too.  At least you
could contact the author and see about getting the source.

>Interestingly I also discovered, it has a mode to install via ftp. No idea  
>how to trigger it though.
>

  I think the PackageBuilder gizmo can handle this.

-- 
David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
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From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Hair Pulling with my first stab at IB! (please help :-))
Date: 9 Jun 1997 06:03:10 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
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jroepcke@compusmart.ab.ca wrote:
> Hi Folks,

Hi,

> Well friends, I don't have a NSReturnSign icon in the
> images display! (OpenStep 4.1 Intel, User+Dev+EOF 2.0)

...  well, this is a known "bug" in the new developer releases.

> This sucks! ;-)  Where is it?  I looked everywhere, and
> I can't find it... if I load the project
> /NextDeveloper/Examples/AppKit/CurrencyConverter/PB.project
> (or whatever it's called) and open the nib file, the
> button in the window shows the NSReturnSign icon, and the
> button's inspector lists it, but the images display
> doesn't have the icon in it!  (I've tried resizing and
> scrolling the window -- it's not there...)

No, it is definitely missing. Well, not really. Here's what I found some 
months ago:

------------------------ schnipp ---------------------------------------
Hi,

the NSReturnSign seems to have been lost in OpenStep for Mach 4.1 (It
was in fact lost in the 4.0 beta but I assumed it would find it's way
home in the sharp release). I have been able to locate the image in the
file /usr/lib/NextStep/Resources/SharedGray.tiff, but the problem lies
within InterfaceBuilder, namely the file
InterfaceBuilder.app/Resources/images.table where the NSReturnSign
entry is missing. Just add the entry and everything works as it should.

Just our two cents,
Urban and Malte


---
Urban Nilsson, Oops Art: urban@oops.se, d7urban@dtek.chalmers.se,
un@cd.chalmers.se, d7urban@mdstud.chalmers.se
Hiroshima 45, Tjernobyl 86, Windows 95
------------------------ schnapp ---------------------------------------

So you just have to edit 
/NextDeveloper/Apps/InterfaceBuilder.app/Resources/images.table and add 
NSReturnSign. Restart IB and everything should be fine.

BTW:
The image has nothing to to with the functionality: you can still wire an 
NSTextField with an NSButton and select the -performClick: method to get the 
desired effect.

Hope it helps,

-dirk

---
______________________________________________________________________
Dirk Olmes      OBJECT FACTORY
                Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
                Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany
                Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0
                Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99
                dirk@object-factory.com
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From: snyers@yosemite.enst-bretagne.fr (Dominique SNYERS)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: unarchiving NSmutableArray
Date: 12 Jun 1997 08:43:44 GMT
Organization: ENST de Bretagne, Brest FRANCE
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Keywords: unarchiving, Coder

I am having some problems with unarchiving a list of objects.
Unarchiving is done in the following way:

   displayList = [NSUnarchiver unarchiveObjectWithFile:aFile];

where dispayList is a NSMutableArray.

The unarchiving process go through all the initWithCoder: with the correct
instantiation of variables for all the objects from archived displayList  
but when I want to use displaylist afterward its count value shows the  
correct number of objects but the objects are all nil pointers.

I am puzzled.

Can someone send me an example of archiving and unarchiving  
NSMutableArray?

Thanks for the help.

Dom Snyers

--

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From: poeiru@eqqs.org
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Look what I found
Date: 12 Jun 1997 07:10:09 GMT
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Hey, just thought i'd share with everyone,
I found a site with loads of nude CHEERLEADERs. The
address is:

        http://www.mid-night.com/cheer.htm

--Jason--

(Sorry for the intrusion, everyone needs some short skirts in their life)

P.S. They also have a few thounsand celebrities but im not into that.
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From: michael@ninebits.com (Michael Balle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DO NT/MACH
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:12:55 +0200
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Patrick Schulz  wrote:

> The answer is: YES. All OpenStep compliant DO implementations can
> communicate
> to each other. That includes OPENSTEP on Mach, NT, PDO for
> Solaris/HP-sUX 
> AND even Sun's OpenStep Implementation (but not the GNUstep DO system
> [not OS compliant yet]).
> 
> The Mach messages system is emulated on non Mach platforms. So it works
> the same way, whatever operating system you use.  I recall some articles
> in
> german magazines about DO/PDO but they are in german ;-)
> 
> hope that helps,
Well, this OpenStep thing just sounds better and better.

You answer open up another question. I'm new to OpenStep, though I have
been reading some magazines and a book about NextStep in the past years,
so I'm a little pussled about what parts of OpenStep are supported on
Solaris/HP-UX.

I guess they have Obj-C compilers, the OpenStep Obj-C runtime
environment and the foundation classes, but I'm not quite sure about the
latter.

Would it be possible to take some existing data-model, "engine", written
entirely in C++, wrap it with some PDO, and get a userinterface-less
server process, accessible using PDO from any OpenStep application
(Mach/NT)?

Michael

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It may also be an image too small for newsbot to be activated.
See report in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

Date: Thu Jun 12 13:34:14 1997

Original subject was:
Look what I found

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From: "Peter Geissler" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Question about NXConvertRGBtoHSB
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:13:25 +0200
Organization: InterNetNews at News.BelWue.DE (Stuttgart, Germany)
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Hi everybody,

I am in the need to implement and RGB to HSB conversion
on a non NextStep system and would very much like
to have the same conversion conventions as used
by the NXConvertRGBtoNSB etc. functions.

I have implemented several conversion schemes
found in literature, but none of these give the same
results as the Nextstep built-in conversion does.

Does anybody knows which conversion scheme
is used by these functions ?


Thanks in advance,
Peter Geissler

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter Geissler

Interdisciplinary Center for Scientific Computing

University of Heidelberg

peter.geissler@iwr.uni-heidelberg.de

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-


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From: Evan M Benoit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Network processes when logged out
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 10:34:46 -0400
Organization: Sophomore, Social & Decision Sciences, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Hey Everyone,

  I've run into a snag trying to get this network monitoring application
to work on a NeXT box.  The application is called Big Brother, and what
it does is check the disk space and processes running on the machine it
runs on (a NeXT box) and send the results over the network to the server
(some unix box).  It sends updated information every 5 minutes.

  My problem is, when I'm logged into the NeXT box it works fine, but
when I log out, it stops updating its stats on the server.  The process
is still running on the client, though.  When I log back into the NeXT
box, it resumes updating, like nothing had happened.  It's weird, and it
hasn't happened on any other OS's I've ran this thing on.

  Can anyone out there give me a hand?  Is there some interuption of
network functions when the user logs out?  Any way to work around that? 
Any wild guesses?

  Thanks a lot!
   -ev




                          ---EVAN BENOIT---
                loved by good           feared by evil 
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From: "Timothy J. Luoma" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: wu-ftpd: link statically 'ls' etc ?
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:24:47 -0400
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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wu-ftpd suggests statically linked binaries

Can this be done under NS/OS (3.3/4.1)?

(I was planning on using the GNU versions, since I have source code for
them ;-)

If so, how?

Thank ye kindly

TjL

--
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NeXT bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html
sed 's/End\ of\ sig/pithy\ quotation/g'


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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:21:44 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
Lines: 10
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In article <5nmfjt$9423@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote:

> John Norstad (j-norstad@nwu.edu) wrote:
> : example, the server version will support spanning, striping, and mirroring

  This is interesting (sorry about the reply to the reply guys).  Does
anyone know how this is being offered?  AIX's drive management system
perhaps (it's very good), Veritas maybe?

Maury
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From: Susan Hovde 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: segmentation fault P2R
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:36:44 -0600
Organization: NOAA Aeronomy Lab
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I finally got Prelude To Rhapsody running on my Pentium 120 MHz with 32
MB RAM and it seems to be working well.  However, when I try to run
ProjectBuilder or InterfaceBuilder I get a segmentation fault.  Ideas
anyone?

TIA,

Susan Hovde
NOAA Aeronomy Lab
Boulder, CO
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From: paulmeyers@worldnet.att.net (Paul Meyers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:01:10 -0400
Organization: University of Florida
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I understand the initial Rhapsody developer's release will only work on
8500s, 8600s, 9500s, and 9600s. Does anybody know what kind of time frame
they have in mind for expanding support to other machines, such as
PowerTower Pros or PowerCenter Pros? 

Paul Meyers
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: keyUp Question (simple)
From: apl@kcbbs.gen.nz (Andrew Lindesay)
Date: 12 Jun 97 07:20:27 GMT
Message-ID: <17497162.26427.11828@kcbbs.gen.nz>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 26

I have written a 'keyUp' into a View I'm writing and it's beeping :-( 
Basically I want my View to run keyUp in my View; which isn't doing very
nicely, but it's then going on (or before?) to produce a 'beep'.  Here
is my code:

- keyUp:(NXEvent *)theEvent
{
switch(theEvent->data.key.charCode)
{
case 0x7f:// DELETE KEY
[self cut:self];
return self;
break;
default:// don't have a handler.
[nextResponder keyDown:theEvent];
return nil;
break;
}
}

Can anybody suggest a solution for this little problem?  Thanks!

____

Andrew Lindesay (apl@kcbbs.gen.nz) NeXTmail ok.
Computers, like coffee are best taken black.
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From: Patrick Schulz 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DO NT/MACH
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:52:56 -0500
Organization: AMD Fab30
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <33A02968.BFC@symphony.amd.com>
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Michael Balle wrote:

> so I'm a little pussled about what parts of OpenStep are supported on
> Solaris/HP-UX.
> 
> I guess they have Obj-C compilers, the OpenStep Obj-C runtime
> environment and the foundation classes, but I'm not quite sure about the
> latter.

AFAIK the following products are out or announced:

PDO4.x for HP-sUX and Solaris 2.5 from NeXT(Apple)
(contains gcc for Obj-C, Objc++, C, C++; gdb; Objc-Runtime;
 all Foundation classes)

EOF for PDO from NeXT(Apple)
(contains all non GUI elements of EOF2.x)

OpenStep for Solaris 1.0 (is 1.1 released? 2/97 it was in beta) from Sun
User - 	  Runtime System and Applications (like NeXTSTEP User 3.2)
Workshop - IB, ProjectBuilder, Sun ObjC++ compiler, all STANDARD (!)
           OpenStep classes (none of NeXT's extensions, only what's
	  in the '94 Spec)

EOF for OpenStep Solaris from NeXT(Apple)
There's an announcement which is not very clear formulated. But since 
there's an EOF for PDO out since mid last year this EOF is for use with
Sun's OpenStep implementation. I've never seen more than this
announcement. So, if it exists it should look like EOF for
OPENSTEP-Mach.
Here's the link:
http://www.next.com/AboutNeXT/PressKit/PressReleases/1996/Solarisv2.html


Some comments on Sun's OpenStep: I don't know what strategy Sun has 
regarding OpenStep for Solaris I'd assume that they don't have one at 
all. There are no activities visible from the outside, the last version
I tested needs some major improvements (speed!), there should be a 
unification of the different OpenStep implementations (you can't deploy
a program wich uses NeXT's nice extensions [text system] to Sun's 
implementation :-(
OTOH the UI of OpenStep (workpace manager) is by far the best user
environment for a workstation (IMHO), Sun delivers CDE...

So folks at Sun, what's the deal with Solaris OpenStep? 


> Would it be possible to take some existing data-model, "engine", written
> entirely in C++, wrap it with some PDO, and get a userinterface-less
> server process, accessible using PDO from any OpenStep application
> (Mach/NT)?
> 
> Michael

Radio Erivan says: as a matter of principle, YES.  :-)

If your C++ engine can be compiled (or at least linked) with gcc for PDO
this should be possible. There are even ways to "talk" from c++ objects
to Obj-C objects, C-style functions should work without problems.
I've never done such a project, so these are assumptions based on the
product specifications and documentation. Can somebody validate this?

Yepp, there are promising capabilities in OpenStep...

Patrick.
-- 

Patrick Schulz; 1704 Nelms Dr. #2025; Austin, TX 78744
email: pschulz@symphony.amd.com (MIME welcome)
-
 vmunix: panic - no coffee detected, user halted.
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 12 Jun 1997 17:14:30 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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On 06/12/97, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In article <5nmfjt$9423@eccws1.dearborn.ford.com>, tph@rmi.net wrote:
>
>> John Norstad (j-norstad@nwu.edu) wrote:
>> : example, the server version will support spanning, striping, and mirroring
>
>  This is interesting (sorry about the reply to the reply guys).  Does
>anyone know how this is being offered?  AIX's drive management system
>perhaps (it's very good), Veritas maybe?
>
>Maury

I don't think anyone knows yet (even at Apple).  At WWDC these were listed as 
features that they thought were important for the server version but they 
emphasized that they had not yet begun even looking at how they were actually 
going to be implemented.

- Chris



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:54:24 -0400
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	<5ndo6o$d4n@slip.net>  
	  
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[ ...newsgroups trimmed... ]

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.misc: 12-Jun-97 Re: Rhapsody
features? by L e e Altenberg@no_junk_ 
> Could anyone explain why an OS optimized for use as a server would not 
> also be optimal for a workstation?

Because the two roles are different?

Let's consider just one tunable parameter for the sake of example-- the
scheduler quantum.  Longer quantums result in more throughput due to
reduced context-switching overhead.  Shorter quantums have more context
switching overhead, but they make the machine feel more responsive to
user input, since more processes get timeslices over a given interval.

There are lots of similar tradeoffs available depending on how one
wishes to tune the system-- the size of the buffer cache, the size of
the inode cache, the size of the process table (although hopefully, that
will not be static but dynamicly allocated), tweaking the scheduling
algorithm, et cetera.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Susan Hovde 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: tabbing in Currency Converter
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:05:24 -0600
Organization: NOAA Aeronomy Lab
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In the Prelude To Rhapsody Currency Converter developer tutorial, I have
set and verified the nextKeyView connections so that the tab key should
shift only between the first two fields.  However, running the interface
both under Interface Builder and as the full-blown app shows that the
tabbing connections are not working.  With the third field set as not
selectable, tabbing from the second field causes the Convert button to
be highlighted, rather than causing the insertion point to move to the
first field as it should.  (If I make the third field selectable,
tabbing from the second field causes the insertion point to move to the
third field.)  It seems that the nextKeyView connections are being
totally ignored.

Has anyone else had this problem?  Am I missing something?

TIA,

Susan Hovde
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From: "Amanda Walker" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 11:07:49 -0400
Organization: A poorly-installed InterNetNews site
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 Lawson English wrote ...

>GX provides functionality that DPS + AppKit doesn't and won't for quite

>some time.


True but not necessarily relevant. DPS+AppKit provides functionality that
GX doesn't and won't for some time. The question is which set is more
relevant to the actual marketplace, and this is not a question that can be
answered by looking at a manual.

For example, I would much rather use DPS for multilingual text rendering
than GX, if only because there are more supporting resources (example:
Morisawa's unequaled Japanese typeface library is available for PostScript,
but not for GX (aside from a couple fonts that Apple has converted to
TrueType GX); similarly for most other non-Roman typefaces). PostScript,
warts and all, is a more mature and field-proven techology base than GX.

>E.G. full implementation of GX Typography. Full implementation of GX

>Printing.

GX Printing is dead, according to Apple. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics
for the screen but not for printers. And if I have to generate PostScript
anyway, might as well pipe it to the screen instead of having two rendering
methods for everything.

I also like the ability of DPS to support user-defined PostScript
procedures that are loaded into the window server (close enough to
"retained mode" as not to matter for 2-D, IMNSHO). This allows the PS
interpreter to deal with hardware acceleration and such, one of GX's big
blind spots.


Amanda Walker
Senior Software Engineer
Ascend Communications, Inc., Client Software Group



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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: tabbing in Currency Converter
Date: 12 Jun 1997 22:43:18 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 22
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Susan Hovde  writes
> In the Prelude To Rhapsody Currency Converter developer tutorial, I have
> set and verified the nextKeyView connections so that the tab key should
> shift only between the first two fields.  However, running the interface
> both under Interface Builder and as the full-blown app shows that the
> tabbing connections are not working.

You need to set the "initialFirstResponder" outlet of the window to point  
at the first text field. If the initialFirstResponder isn't set, then the  
Appkit ignores the nextKeyView connections.

A related issue you might run into later is that the initialFirstResponder  
must be an NSView, not an NSCell. If you want to hook up  
initialFirstResponder to a matrix of cells (for instance, an NSForm), make  
sure that you connect in to the containing view, rather than one of the  
cells inside.

-Mark
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
 until the WWDC that they realized
they should support the 9500 and 9600.  Like developers interested in leading-
edge software wouldn't buy top-of-the-line hardware.  Sheesh...

Not that this affects me and my Performa 580.

                            Cliff

                        =============
                        Maui no ka oi
                        =============
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From: quinlan@intergate.bc.ca (Brian Quinlan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:43:17 -0700
Organization: Internet Gateway Corporation
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In article <5nnres$390$2@kaopala.mhpcc.edu>, decoy_id@no_junk_on_the.net
(L e e Altenberg) wrote:

> Could anyone explain why an OS optimized for use as a server would not 
> also be optimal for a workstation?

The schedualer might need to be different to give priority to interactive
processes. Server processes tend to block on IO frequently but a lot of
GUI applications do not. Probably other stuff.

-- 
Brian Quinlan
quinlan@intergate.bc.ca
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From: dnelson@slip.net (Dru Nelson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Date: 12 Jun 1997 23:41:19 GMT
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IBM doesn't use veritas, and yes it is good. sun is going to use
veritas, but who knows what NeXT will use....

Maury Markowitz (maury@softarc.com) wrote:
>   This is interesting (sorry about the reply to the reply guys).  Does
> anyone know how this is being offered?  AIX's drive management system
> perhaps (it's very good), Veritas maybe?

> Maury
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From: gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu (Garance A. Drosehn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 12 Jun 1997 23:43:36 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY, USA
Lines: 19
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Lee Altenberg writes:
> Could anyone explain why an OS optimized for use as a server
> would not also be optimal for a workstation?

Because they will see different workloads.  They will also
have different criteria for what "acceptable performance"
means.

It is also reasonable to assume that servers are going to be
higher-end configurations than user workstations would be
(more RAM, etc), and you might change tuning parameters based
on that difference.

There can be a lot of reasons.

--
Garance Alistair Drosehn     =     gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer        (MIME & NeXTmail capable)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute;           Troy NY    USA
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From: goldsmith@apple.com (David Goldsmith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:52:09 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
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In article <5nmf6e$ffg$1@news.intercon.com>, "Amanda Walker"
 wrote:
>GX Printing is dead, according to Apple. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics
>for the screen but not for printers.

No, not quite. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics for printers, just through
the classic printing architecture.

-- 
David Goldsmith
Architect
International, Text, and Graphics Department
Apple Computer, Inc.
goldsmith@apple.com
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: 4.2 incompatibilities
Date: 13 Jun 1997 01:12:39 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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4.2 incompatibilities

Has anyone else noticed the following ?  Is it just me ?

4.2 can load 4.1 bundles but not visa-versa (Was this in the release notes ?)

debugging of autorelease pools has changed and is less powerful in 4.2  See 
rant below

object files are sometimes MUCH larger in 4.2

the semantics of NSClassNamed() have changed.  It did not used to call the 
unknown class handler under any circumstances and now does.

It is now impossible to break on _freedhandler()

The makefiles changed again in some incompatible ways.  Variables that used 
to have relative paths now have absolute paths.  This interfears with 
frameworks that are shared over a network because paths are sometimes stored 
in the framework.  Does anybody know when or why ?

The after_install:: target is not always called after install...It is 
sometimes called before install due to line 172 in common.make (I am writing 
this from memory and may have the line number or file name slightly wrong)

finally, the BIG one:

NSAutorelease pools now ALWAYS call _objc_error and abort  WITHOUT raising an 
exception if a freed object is in the pool.  The various NSDebug.h tricks to 
prevent this and debug this DO NOT WORK.  This makes it extremely difficult 
to debug these things!  The environment variables controlling this stuff do 
not work either.


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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSDictionary grammar?
Date: 11 Jun 1997 21:18:09 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 06/11/97, Dru Nelson wrote:
> What is the grammar for an OpenStep NSDictionary object?
> (or where is the documentation)
>
> Are the initFromFile:/writeToFile:atomically: methods the best
> way of storing little configurations in an ascii format or is
> there a better serializer/persistence methodology? 
> I think Project Builder uses the same method in it's PB.project
> file.
>
>Dru Nelson - dnelson@slip.net - Redwood City, California
>
>

	Actually, you want the Persistent Property List grammar..

PropertyList(5)     UNIX Programmer's Manual      PropertyList(5)

NAME
     PropertyList - ASCII Property List format

DESCRIPTION
     A property list organizes data into named values and lists
     of values.  Property lists are used by the NEXTSTEP user
     defaults system (among other things).  This man page pro-
     vides a brief and incomplete overview for casual users; see
     <> for a detailed description of the ASCII property
     list format.

     In simple terms, a property list contains strings, binary
     data, arrays of items, and dictionaries.  These four kinds
     of items can be combined in various ways, as described
     below.

     A string is enclosed in double quotation marks; for example,
     "This is a string." (The period is included in this string.)
     The quotation marks can be omitted if the string is composed
     strictly of alphanumeric characters and contains no white
     space (numbers are handled as strings in property lists).
     Though the property list format uses ASCII for strings, note
     that NEXTSTEP uses Unicode.  You may see strings containing
     unreadable sequences of ASCII characters; these are used to
     represent Unicode characters.  <>

     Binary data is enclosed in angle brackets and encoded in
     hexadecimal ASCII; for example, <0fbd777 1c2735ae>.  Spaces
     are ignored.

     An array is enclosed in parentheses, with the elements
     separated by commas; for example, ("San Francisco", "New
     York", "London").  The items don't all have to be of the
     same type (for example, all strings) - but they normally
     should be.  Arrays can contain strings, binary data, other
     arrays, or dictionaries.

     A dictionary is enclosed in curly braces, and contains a
     list of keys with their values.  Each key-value pair ends
     with a semicolon.  Here's a sample dictionary: { user =
     maryg; "error string" = "core dump"; code = ; }.
     (Note the omission of quotation marks for single-word
     alphanumeric strings.) Values don't all have to be the same
     type, since their types are usually defined by whatever pro-
     gram uses them (in this example, the program using the dic-
     tionary knows that user is a string and code is binary
     data).  Dictionaries can contain strings, binary data,
     arrays, and other dictionaries.

     Below is a sample of a more complex property list, taken
     from a user's defaults system (see defaults(1)).  The pro-
     perty list itself is a dictionary with keys "Clock,"
     "NSGlobalDomain," and so on; each value is also a diction-
     ary, which contains the individual defaults.

     {
         Clock = {ClockStyle = 3; };
         NSGlobalDomain = {24HourClock = Yes; Language = English; };
         NeXT1 = {Keymap = /NextLibrary/Keyboards/NeXTUSA; };
         Viewer = {NSBrowserColumnWidth = 145; "NSWindow Frame 
Preferences" = "5 197 395 309 "; };
         Workspace = {SelectedTabIndex = 0; WindowOrigin = 
"-75.000000"; };
         pbs = {};
     }

SEE ALSO
     defaults(1)

     <>



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 

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From: arti@address.in.signature (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Hair Pulling with my first stab at IB! (please help :-))
Date: 13 Jun 1997 04:37:13 GMT
Organization: LavaNet, Inc.
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dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes) wrote:

> the NSReturnSign seems to have been lost in OpenStep for Mach 4.1 (It
> was in fact lost in the 4.0 beta but I assumed it would find it's way
> home in the sharp release). I have been able to locate the image in the
> file /usr/lib/NextStep/Resources/SharedGray.tiff, but the problem lies
> within InterfaceBuilder, namely the file
> InterfaceBuilder.app/Resources/images.table where the NSReturnSign
> entry is missing. Just add the entry and everything works as it should.
> 
> Just our two cents,
> Urban and Malte
> 
> 
> ---
> Urban Nilsson, Oops Art: urban@oops.se, d7urban@dtek.chalmers.se,
> un@cd.chalmers.se, d7urban@mdstud.chalmers.se
> Hiroshima 45, Tjernobyl 86, Windows 95
> ------------------------ schnapp ---------------------------------------
> 
> So you just have to edit 
> /NextDeveloper/Apps/InterfaceBuilder.app/Resources/images.table and add 
> NSReturnSign. Restart IB and everything should be fine.

    No, no, no!!!  Don't recommend this sort of hack to new developers.  The 
NSReturnSign is no longer used to signify the default button - the one that 
will be pressed when the RETURN/ENTER key is pressed.  Forget about 
NSReturnSign.

    Instead, enter "\r" as the button's or buttonCell's key in its Attributes 
Inspector.  At runtime, this will result in a dark border around this button.
-- 
Art Isbell                       NeXT/MIME Mail: arti at lava dot net
Trego Systems (for whom I don't speak)     Voice/Fax: +1 808 394 0511
OPENSTEP/NT                               Voice Mail: +1 808 394 0495
   managed care solutions            US Mail: Honolulu, HI 96825-2638
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From: Don McGregor 
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
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Brian Quinlan wrote:
> 
> In article <5nnres$390$2@kaopala.mhpcc.edu>, decoy_id@no_junk_on_the.net
> (L e e Altenberg) wrote:
> 
> > Could anyone explain why an OS optimized for use as a server would not
> > also be optimal for a workstation?
> 
> The schedualer might need to be different to give priority to interactive
> processes. Server processes tend to block on IO frequently but a lot of
> GUI applications do not. Probably other stuff.

In most flavors of Unix there are a bunch of tables in the kernel 
for things like process table slots and filesystem buffers. The
tables are constant size; you can set them small at boot time, and 
take up less memory, or set them big, so they can handle anything you 
throw at them, but also suck up memory. What a "reasonable" table size
is differs for personal workstations and servers, since they have
vastly different usage profiles.  A workstation usually won't be
serving up some high-traffic NFS mounts or dealing with a big
news feed, so configuring a workstation as if it will handle 
these tasks is a waste of hardware.

Usually it's no big deal to change
the kernel parameters; many unices have kernel directories that let
users
recompile and relink the kernel with modified parameters. 

Mach isn't quite Unix, but I presume the ideas are the same.

Microsoft famously ships NT "Workstation" and NT "Server", the
difference
in the kernels consisting only of a couple modifications to kernel
tuning
parameters and several hundred dollars in retail price. With a little
smoke and mirrors (aka "market segementation"), Microsoft is able to
add a few megabucks to Bill's bank account.

-- 
Don McGregor
mcgredo@stl.nps.navy.mil
http://www.stl.nps.navy.mil/~mcgredo
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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: tabbing in Currency Converter
Date: 13 Jun 1997 01:43:37 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
Lines: 15
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Cc: hovde@al.noaa.gov, mwyner@apple.com

In <33A06476.7606@al.noaa.gov> Susan Hovde wrote:
> In the Prelude To Rhapsody Currency Converter developer tutorial, I have
> set and verified the nextKeyView connections ...
> However, running the interface both under Interface Builder and as the
> full-blown app shows that the  tabbing connections are not working. ...
> It seems that the nextKeyView connections are being  totally ignored.

you must set the connection for initialFirstResponder 
(or something named similar from the window to the first field)
it would be nice if the tutorial mentioned this.

--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 03:51:04 -0600
From: amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com
Subject: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <866191282.19621@dejanews.com>
Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
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Maybe I am not using the right terminology (correct me where you can),
though that should not be a problem. When the main executable is placed
in the application's folder, how does the system know which it is, is
there a special name or something.  Also, if I wish to make the main code
say a Perl script or csh script does Open Step support the possibility
and if it does, how does it know which execution environment to start?

If this is not currently a possiblity, would anyone see this as an idea
for future implementations - especially with Java coming along.

Thanks - Please CC me your reply

Andre

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From: tzs@halcyon.com (Tim Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.codewarrior,comp.sys.mac.programmer.help
Subject: Re: Looking for Prelude to Rhapsody (It should be free!)
Date: 13 Jun 1997 02:38:59 -0700
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.
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 wrote:
>What's amazing about this is that it wasn't until the WWDC that they realized
>they should support the 9500 and 9600.  Like developers interested in leading-
>edge software wouldn't buy top-of-the-line hardware.  Sheesh...

Well, one problem with buying top-of-the-line hardware for development is that
you might find that the tools you want to use don't quite work yet.  With
each new Mac, Apple likes to do things that break The Debugger, and if you
are too eager, you may end up getting your top-of-the-line Mac before Steve
Jasik gets one and comes up with an update to support it.

--Tim Smith
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From: jak@asu.edu (John Kestner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: 3.3 or 4.x?
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 02:34:35 -0700
Organization: Arizona State University
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Apologies for the newbie question:

I'm planning to get a mono turbo slab, and I'll be using it for some light
web/ftp serving, print serving (to a small Mac network), and hopefully for
developing.

But I'm wondering: What version of NS should I get? What are the
differences between 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, (which I guess is the minimum I
should get) and 4.x?
Rhapsody is supposed to be a superset of NS, so I can develop now on black
hardware and recompiling will be all that's necessary, right? Will stuff I
develop in 3.3 carry over, or would I have to have 4.x?

I've been looking through the www resources for OS version comparisons,
but haven't found anything. If someone could point me to a resource with
the answer, or just tell me, I'd appreciate it.

Oh yeah, and cost is a factor. If you have NS Developer (or even User) to
sell, I'll consider buying it.

thanks
john

-- 
--- - ------- -------
The real in us is silent; the acquired is talkative. - Kahlil Gibran

jak@asu.edu
http://www.public.asu.edu/~jkestner/
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From: Susan Hovde 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: tabbing in CC -- THANKS!
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:57:50 -0600
Organization: NOAA Aeronomy Lab
Lines: 4
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Thanks to Mark Bessey and Alex Blakemore for clueing me in to
initialFirstResponder; Currency Converter works great now.  Onward!

Susan Hovde
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Date: 13 Jun 1997 16:54:02 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 34
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 06/12/97, amas@lhr-sys.dhl.com wrote:
>Maybe I am not using the right terminology (correct me where you can),
>though that should not be a problem. When the main executable is placed
>in the application's folder, how does the system know which it is, is
>there a special name or something.  

The name of the executable must be the same as the name of the application 
wrapper (folder) minus the app extension.  I.E. If you have Foo.app the main 
executable is named Foo.

>Also, if I wish to make the main code
>say a Perl script or csh script does Open Step support the possibility

Alas, no.  The main code has to be an executable not a script file.  You can 
kludge it of course by writing a very simple executable which calls 
system("myScriptFile") as it's only code to get it to run your script though.

>Thanks - Please CC me your reply
>
>Andre
>
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
>      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: John Eric Ivancich 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 13 Jun 1997 13:00:04 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan EECS Department
Lines: 29
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Don McGregor  writes:

> In most flavors of Unix there are a bunch of tables in the kernel 
> for things like process table slots and filesystem buffers. The
> tables are constant size; you can set them small at boot time, and 
> take up less memory, or set them big, so they can handle anything you 
> throw at them, but also suck up memory. What a "reasonable" table size
> is differs for personal workstations and servers, since they have
> vastly different usage profiles.  A workstation usually won't be
> serving up some high-traffic NFS mounts or dealing with a big
> news feed, so configuring a workstation as if it will handle 
> these tasks is a waste of hardware.
> 
> Usually it's no big deal to change
> the kernel parameters; many unices have kernel directories that let
> users
> recompile and relink the kernel with modified parameters. 

What about an adaptive scheme?  As the OS runs, the kernel makes note
of the typical useage of various tables (e.g., on average the process
table is 30% full), along with maximum usage, minimum usage etc.  The
kernel then figures out a good size for these tables to take effect on
the next boot.  Obviously if this were done, the tables would have to
be allocated dynamically at boot to circumvent the need for a
recompile/relink.

Eric

P.S. I hate spam.
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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: HELP:  WMInspector changed in 4.1?
Date: 13 Jun 1997 17:40:10 GMT
Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc.
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 13 12:40:10 PM CDT 1997
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Hello,

I would like to write a Workspace Manager inspector, but am unable to follow 
the directions given in the NeXT docs.  The file describing this procedure 
doesn't seem to be up to date.  It claims that my inspector must inherit from 
a class named WMInspector.  I've combed my entire filesystem and was unable 
to locate any reference to a WMInspector class.  Has this class been renamed 
or something?  

I've searched NeXTAnswers but was unable to find any info there.  I hope 
someone here can help!  Please?  

BTW, I'm running 4.1 for mach.


--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Mark Trombino             |  J A M S o f t                             |
|    mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  |  Audio DSP Tools for Openstep & Rhapsody   | 
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

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From: eric@skatter.USask.Ca
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: 12 Jun 1997 21:07:49 GMT
Organization: University of Saskatchewan
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Would someone out there running OPENSTEP 4.2 try my famous printf test program? 

For those of you coming in late, this program tests for a bug that has been 
present since NeXTstep version 1.0 and which I first reported in December, 1989.

I even have the NeXT bug tracking  reference numbers [60697, 98369] and an e-mail 
message from NeXT (September 1994)  indicating that, ``it looks like it will 
finally be fixed in NEXTSTEP release 4.0.''

================================================================
#include 

int main (int argc, char **argv)
{
        printf ("Expect 0.00123: %.3g\n", 0.001234567);
        printf ("Expect 123: %.3g\n", 123.4567);
        printf ("Expect 123.5: %.4g\n", 123.4567);
        printf ("Expect 1e+03: %.3g\n", 999.6);
        return 0;
}
=================================================================

To forestall the usual flurry of responses that I get about this, please read the 
following before sending me a message that my test program is incorrect:

The ANSI standard (X3.159-1989) says (Section 4.9.6.1, page 134, line 33):

g,G     The double argument is converted in style f or e (or in style E in the
        case of a G conversion specifier), with the precision specifying the
        number of significant digits.  If the precision is zero, it is taken
        as 1.  The style used depends on the value converted; style e (or E)
        will be use only if the exponent resulting from the conversion is less
        than -4 or greater than or equal to the precision.  Trailing zeros are
        removed from the fractional portion of the result;  a decimal-point
        character appears only if it is followed by a digit.

*** NOTE THE WORDS `precision specifying the number of significant digits'. ***

Let's have a look at some examples from the test program:
   
    format "%.3g" .001234567
   
    ==== Result was:
    0.001
    ---- Result should have been:
    0.00123
The zero's in 0.00123 are *not* significant. Score 1 against NeXT.

   
    format "%.3g" 999.6
   
    ==== Result was:
    999.6
    ---- Result should have been:
    1e+03
   
The format calls for 3 SIGNIFICANT DIGITS.  Rounding 999.6 to three significant
digits leaves 1000, which has an exponent equal to the precision and therefore
should be printed in e format.  Score 2 against NeXT.

Also,
        - This is a LIBRARY issue, not a compiler issue.  It doesn't matter
          *what* version of cc/gcc I use on the NeXT, the problem is in the
          library supplied by NeXT
        - K&R II does *not* conflict with the ANSI standard -- it just
          doesn't `tell the *whole* truth and nothing but the truth'.
          It mentions when to switch between e and f, but it doesn't say
          *anything* else.  In particular, it *doesn't* say that
                %.3g
          should be rendered as
                %.3e        or        %.3f
          it just says when %e or %f style should be used.
          The appendix at the end of K&R II is, ``a summary of the library
          defined by the ANSI standard''.  As such, it leaves the
          authors/publisher off the hook when they omit (for space reasons,
          I presume) parts of the standard.
        - The ANSI standard isn't that expensive, and isn't that hard to read.
          I can't figure why more people don't just go out and buy it.


Here are some results from the machines I have access to at our lab:
On a SUN 4/380 (SUNOS 4.1.1):
        Expect 0.00123: 0.00123
        Expect 123: 123
        Expect 123.5: 123.5
        Expect 1e+03: 1e+03
So it would appear that at least *one* vendor can get it right!

On an HP-715 (HP-UX V8 -- I think):
        Expect 0.00123: 0.00123
        Expect 123: 123
        Expect 123.5: 123.5
        Expect 1e+03: 1e+03
Hmmm...looks like there are at least *two* vendors that can get it right.

On a DEC MicroVAX II (Ultrix version 2.2):
        Expect 0.00123: 0.00123
        Expect 123: 123
        Expect 123.5: 123.5
        Expect 1e+03: 1e+03
Wow, even an antique computer can do this properly!

-- 
Eric Norum                                 eric@skatter.usask.ca
Saskatchewan Accelerator Laboratory        Phone: (306) 966-6308
University of Saskatchewan                 FAX:   (306) 966-6058
Saskatoon, Canada.                         NeXTMail accepted.
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:45:28 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 35
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[ ...newsgroups snipped... ]
Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.misc: 13-Jun-97 Re: Rhapsody
features? by John Eric Ivancich@quip. 
>> Usually it's no big deal to change the kernel parameters; many unices have
>> kernel directories that let users recompile and relink the kernel with
>> modified parameters. 
>  
> What about an adaptive scheme?  As the OS runs, the kernel makes note
> of the typical useage of various tables (e.g., on average the process
> table is 30% full), along with maximum usage, minimum usage etc.  The
> kernel then figures out a good size for these tables to take effect on
> the next boot.

If the kernel can dynamicly allocate its' internal tables, there would
be no need to reboot, and yes, it is generally desirable to have the
kernel do this as much as possible.

The problem comes in that it's difficult to get dynamic kernel table
allocation working perfectly, and staticly-sized arrays tend to be
faster to work with than linked lists or similar dynamic data
structures.  Being able to access and manipulate process table entries
_fast_ is important, although the CPU speed of modern machines makes a
little additional overhead less important than it used to be.

Then again, supporting an unlimited number of processes can be
important, too-- especially for a server; this is another area where
tradeoffs can be made depending on the intended usage of the machine.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: wu-ftpd: link statically 'ls' etc ?
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:54:39 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 31
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In-Reply-To: 

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Jun-97 wu-ftpd: link
statically 'l.. by "Timothy J. Luoma"@peak. 
> wu-ftpd suggests statically linked binaries
>  
> Can this be done under NS/OS (3.3/4.1)?

Yes, but most likely you're going to have to do a lot more work than you
really want to.
  
> (I was planning on using the GNU versions, since I have source code for
> them ;-)
>  
> If so, how?

If NeXT/Apple made static versions of their shared libraries publicly
available [hint, hint], or released the tools they use to manage shared
libraries [ditto on the "hint"s], you'd have no problem.

Unfortunately, neither is the case, so the next solution is to build
yourself the GNU C library and/or libiberty.a, which will give you with
a staticly-linkable standard C library in place of NeXT's shared
libraries.  Unfortunately (again), building libgcc.a under NEXTSTEP was
a major pain in the posterior the last time I tried.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: hit test in postscript
Date: 13 Jun 1997 20:50:07 GMT
Organization: IMAG, Grenoble, France
Lines: 23
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Reply-To: Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)
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Hi.
I'm developping a program in OS4.1/intel, and it has to test
for cursor hits in some displayed figures. I'm using postscript's infill
operator to test for the hit, but am having some problems when the
figures are too big. For example, the code below fails for a hit test inside
a triangle (the triangle is drawn in the screen with the same code, with a 
fill
instead of the infill).
If the values 10000 are changed to 1000, for example, the hit succeeds.
Is this a documented bug? Is it present in 4.2? Is it a limitation of the 
infill op?
Does anybody have pointers for a good code for testing a hit in a line?

newpath
10000 34 moveto
-2 6 rlineto
4 0 rlineto
closepath
10000 38 infill

Thanks,
Benhur

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From: luomat@peak.org (Timothy J. Luoma)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5ns28e$88n$2@bashir.peak.org>
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 13 Jun 1997 18:56:00 -0700
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This reply was sent to me from Joel Breckinridge, who doesn't have
newsgroup access:

Joel Breckinridge  said:

> 
> Amanda wrote:
> > For example, I would much rather use DPS for multilingual text
rendering
> > than GX, if only because there are more supporting resources (example:
> > Morisawa's unequaled Japanese typeface library is available for
> > PostScript,
> > but not for GX (aside from a couple fonts that Apple has converted to
> > TrueType GX); similarly for most other non-Roman typefaces).
> PostScript,
> > warts and all, is a more mature and field-proven techology base than
GX.
> 
> While this is true, it does not answer the fact that PostScript (I'm not 
> talking DPS here) is insufficient for Japanese DTP needs or any 2 byte 
> needs. I have been with it since the start in 1989 and Japanese PS is 
> difficult to kern, mutiple weights are large, unweildy and take up too 
> much memory, this is just for starters. As I said earlier on the GX list:
> 
> 'If anybody cares to know, there are no Mutiple Master Japanese fonts, 
> (or any 2 byte MM fonts, but there are some GX Japanese fonts) and there 
> is no way to embed most Japanese type 1 fonts in the recently released 
> Acrobat 3.0 J (the first to support 2 byte characters). Outside of GX, 2 
> byte PDA is a kludge and sucks, to put it mildly.'
> 
> Torsten Buck of FontWorks Inc. (the largest Japanese font vendor next to 
> Morisawa with many quality and popular typefaces) answered this post
> most 
> perceptively, giving us some compelling reasons for GX Typography:
> 
> >Now we are talking. We at Fontworks invested heavily over the last
> couple 
> >of years in GX technology because it is/was addressing exactly the
issues 
> >which were/are hindering DTP in Japan to take off as it did in the
United 
> >States. 
> >
> >There is for example the big file size of Japanese fonts (not to mention

> >Chinese fonts); we are talking of 3 to 6 MB per weight. That means 30MB 
> >of hard disk space for one family in six weights.
> >
> >Or there is the need to be able to make up characters which are not in 
> >the standard character set. If you come across an "unusual" character 
> >when giving a document to be printed in a typesetting bureau they will 
> >make up this characters as they go; and simply charge you for the extra 
> >work. This is expensive but at least you get your job done. In the DTP 
> >world however the user is stuck. 
> >
> >GX with the OTA gives a font vendor the possibility to address these 
> >issues. I'm not just talking about taking a PostScript or TrueType font 
> >and wrapping it up is a GX wrapper to give it some more features. We can

> >(and will) do that with an ordinary 'sfnt' now as well.
> >
> >I'm talking about innovative font data structures. In order to get the 
> >file size down you have to find a way to avoid storing full outlines for

> >every single of the over 6000 glyphs.
> >We can now store one weight in about 1.5 MB without loosing any design 
> >detail compared with our "standard" PostScript font. This loss-less 
> >compression is extremely (I repeat: extremely) important in the so
overly 
> >quality oriented Japanese market.
> >
> >But what's the point having a small data structure if the operation 
> >system doesn't know what to do with it. And this is where I see the 
> >biggest advantage of GX. It allows us to develop a scaler (i.e. a 
> >rasterizer with runs side by side with the build in TT or PS
rasterizers) 
> >which knows how to extract the outlines from our compact data format.
> And 
> >it goes even much further. I can produce weight variations within the 
> >scaler as well. A whole font family with weights anywhere between Light 
> >and UltraBold (not just the six default weight instances but ANY weight,

> >like for example 35% between Light and Medium) can now fit in a suitcase

> >of roughly 9 MB.
> >
> >This compact data structure happens to be a result of the way we 
> >construct characters in our production process. What's the benefit for 
> >the user? Well, we take a stripped down version of our in-house 
> >production software and, swupp, we have a Gaiji-editor. The DTP user can

> >create it's own characters with such ease, you will have to see it to 
> >believe it. It's a real Macintosh user interface gem, I would say. All 
> >the technical details are hidden and the user can concentrate on the 
> >design process.
> 
> Joel Breckinridge
> Tact Graphic KK
> Shizuoka, Japan
> joel@tactgraphic.co.jp
> 
> 



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Dru Nelson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Version control in 4.2prerelease?
Date: 14 Jun 1997 08:04:04 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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How can one add RCS/whatever so project builder uses version
control?

Dru Nelson - Redwood City - California


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From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Sender: news@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Mr. News)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:54:20 GMT
References: <866191282.19621@dejanews.com>
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In article <866191282.19621@dejanews.com>,   wrote:
>Maybe I am not using the right terminology (correct me where you can),
>though that should not be a problem. When the main executable is placed
>in the application's folder, how does the system know which it is, is
>there a special name or something.

  Yes.  If you have an app wrapper called "Blah.app" then "Blah.app/Blah" will
be run.

>Also, if I wish to make the main code
>say a Perl script or csh script does Open Step support the possibility
>and if it does, how does it know which execution environment to start?
>

  That should work fine, provided your script starts with the "#!/bin/csh" (or
whatever) magic cookie.  The kernel understands such things.  However, the
utility of this inside an app wrapper is questionable, since stdout will go to
the console and there's no stdin (as far as I know).

-- 
David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
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From: dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Subject: Re: 3.3 or 4.x?
Sender: news@novice.uwaterloo.ca (Mr. News)
Message-ID: 
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:14:48 GMT
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In article ,
John Kestner  wrote:
>
>But I'm wondering: What version of NS should I get? What are the
>differences between 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3, (which I guess is the minimum I
>should get) and 4.x?

  3.2 is the bare minimum you should get, with 3.3 perferable.  4.x (4.2
preferably) should be OK on a Turbo machine as long as you put 64MB or more
RAM in it.

>Rhapsody is supposed to be a superset of NS, so I can develop now on black
>hardware and recompiling will be all that's necessary, right? Will stuff I
>develop in 3.3 carry over, or would I have to have 4.x?
>

  Well, it's hard to say exactly what will be required in addition to a
recompile.  But, at a minimum, your code must be OPENSTEP-based, not
NeXTSTEP-based.  In that case 4.x is the only way to go.

-- 
David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 05:25:41 -0600
Organization: ErgoTech
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <33A27FB5.6635@ergotech.com>
References: <5npof5$jlf@tribune.usask.ca>
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To: eric@skatter.USask.Ca

eric@skatter.USask.Ca wrote:
> 
> Would someone out there running OPENSTEP 4.2 try my famous printf test program?
> ================================================================
> #include 
> 
> int main (int argc, char **argv)
> {
>         printf ("Expect 0.00123: %.3g\n", 0.001234567);
>         printf ("Expect 123: %.3g\n", 123.4567);
>         printf ("Expect 123.5: %.4g\n", 123.4567);
>         printf ("Expect 1e+03: %.3g\n", 999.6);
>         return 0;
> }
> =================================================================

Since 4.2 is still prerelease and still under NDA, I would just tell
Eric to port any 3.3 patches he has for printf to 4.2.

What surprises me is that NeXT/Apple consider this bug unimportant. 
This is not just Eric and a particular broken example.  We get
complaints from users about the appearance of numbers formatted with %g.

Jim
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: hit test in postscript
Date: 14 Jun 1997 12:55:40 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 17
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In article <5nsbpv$qgq$1@imag.imag.fr> Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)  
writes:

[Hit testing on OS 4.1/Intel fails]
 
> newpath
> 10000 34 moveto
> -2 6 rlineto
> 4 0 rlineto
> closepath
> 10000 38 infill

This infil succeeds on my 4.0/Intel system.  Maybe I shouldn't have
ordered 4.2 yesterday?

Marcel

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From: davep@nospam.com (Dave Polaschek)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:16:33 -0500
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In article ,
goldsmith@apple.com (David Goldsmith) wrote:

> In article <5nmf6e$ffg$1@news.intercon.com>, "Amanda Walker"
>  wrote:
> >GX Printing is dead, according to Apple. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics
> >for the screen but not for printers.
> 
> No, not quite. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics for printers, just through
> the classic printing architecture.

David,

You need to be VERY careful about raising people's expectations here.
MacOS 8 will support GX graphics for printers, but only as bitmaps.
Support for PostScript generation will not be in 8.0.

-DaveP

-- 
THE "REPLY TO" BUTTOM WILL NOT WORK WITH THIS POSTING
The reply-to address has been altered to thwart junk e-mailers.
Dave Polaschek - davep@best.com
PGP key and other spiffy things at 
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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Version control in 4.2prerelease?
Date: 14 Jun 1997 14:57:27 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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By adding CVS or PVCS, making some hacks to IB and PB (mine will be submitted  
one day), and cross your fingers. Being religios might also help especially if  
you pray very hard before start using the SCM module ;-)
 
In article <5ntj9k$ajg$1@owl> Dru Nelson  writes:
> 
> 
> How can one add RCS/whatever so project builder uses version
> control?


--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street 
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: hit test in postscript
Date: 14 Jun 1997 14:50:43 GMT
Organization: IMAG, Grenoble, France
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Cc: marcel@system.de

In <5nu4cc$qte$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> marcel@system.de wrote:
> In article <5nsbpv$qgq$1@imag.imag.fr> Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)  
> writes:
> 
> [Hit testing on OS 4.1/Intel fails]
>  
> > newpath
> > 10000 34 moveto
> > -2 6 rlineto
> > 4 0 rlineto
> > closepath
> > 10000 38 infill
> 
> This infil succeeds on my 4.0/Intel system.  Maybe I shouldn't have
> ordered 4.2 yesterday?
Well, I was testing with BeYap; with Yap it works. But changing 10000 with 
30000, it
doesn't work (that was my original problem, I simplified to 10000 to have 
more
beautiful numbers..)

thanks, benhur

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From: Tony Scott
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Distributors Wanted NOW!!
Date: 14 Jun 1997 15:07:02 GMT
Organization: World  Wide Pants Promotion
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <5nuc2m$84p$7662@cadmium.aware.nl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: breda-45.svpop.tip.nl

Hi,

This is a Solicitation Email, we are looking for new TUFF'97 DISTRIBUTORS.
TUFF'97 is a promotional concept for a prospect follow-up system called
"Simple Track". Software designed for Windows 95, 3.11 and NT
machines. (Macintosh users read the NOTE below(*))

Concept:

The TUFF'97 software includes a copy of Simple Track, so you can use this
for your own personal administration (free). However, the TUFF'97 software
is designed to give you BIG TIME credits for just taking the efforts to
PROMOTE it.

How do I get those credits?. Easy, just distribute/promote it. How?
(Give away the software for free, put it on your website/homepage
and let everyone download it. Give it to your friends, attach it by
email etc). With a one time $40.00 (USD) validation code purchase,
YOUR name becomes part of all sofware you sent out to your customers.
When your TUFF'97 software gets validated, all your personal information is
automatically integrated in the software, so everyone knows how to reach
you by phone/fax or email and where to sent the check/money or cash orders.

Basically this is the concept. Offcourse you need the software to grasp
the whole thing. Believe it, there is absolutely no marketing knowledge
required, just ask for the software package, join and start promoting your
own TUFF'97 line. The only thing you DO need is a PC or Mac(*) and Internet.

(*) TUFF'97 is only available for MacOS users running Connectix VirtualPC
or Insignia's Sofwindows 95/3.11. A true MacOS version is not available.
 
When you're interested in becoming a TUFF'97 distributor and create your own
distribution line, sent a mailto:FiReStArTeR@frodo.com and ask for your
copy of the TUFF software (We'll sent you a download location and install
instructions). This is a serious opportunity, so only serious responses
are processed. If you're not interested,  have a nice day.
Best Regards,
Tony Scott
Worldwide Pants Promotions
24H Support/Download requests,
mailto:FiReStArTeR@frodo.com
voice:(+01)779 698 4655
Fax  :(+01)779 698 4555
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From: rbraver@ohww.norman.ok.us
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <5nuc2m$84p$7662@cadmium.aware.nl>
Date: 14 Jun 1997 17:40:06 GMT
Control: cancel <5nuc2m$84p$7662@cadmium.aware.nl>
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Spam cancelled.  Notice ID: 19970614.03.  See news.admin.net-abuse.announce or
http://spam.ohww.norman.ok.us/spam_notices/19970614.03.html for complete report.
Original Subject: Distributors Wanted NOW!!
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From: mpaque@wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problems compiling after OpenStep conversion
Date: 14 Jun 1997 11:37:32 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Sender: mpaque@mpaque
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5nuodc$kr@mpaque.mpaque>
References: <5nkred$llc@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu>
Reply-To: mpaque@apple.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: volans96.wco.com
Lines: 57

In article <5nkred$llc@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu> goldwass@lifesci.lscf.ucsb.edu  
(Lloyd Goldwasser) writes:
> First is yet another header problem.  When I try to compile, I get
> link errors due to undefined symbols:
> 
>   /bin/ld: Undefined symbols:
>   .objc_class_name_NSArray
>   .objc_class_name_NSBundle
>   ...
> 
> although, for instance, every file that has NSArrays definitely
> #imports .


The #import brings in the declarations for your source code, but not the  
implementations.  To get the implementations, you'll need to get your app  
to link with the appropriate frameworks.

In ProjectBuilder you can double-click on the 'Frameworks' line in the  
project browser, and use the resulting 'Open' panel to add the Foundation  
framework (where NSArray and NSBundle are implemented).

Alternatively, you can manually put the needed frameworks on the OTHER_LIBS  
variable in your Makefile.preamble:

  # Additional libs to link apps against ('app' target)
  OTHER_LIBS = -framework Foundation


If you ar using home-grown makefiles, or just typing on the commandline:

  cc -o Foo -O -arch m68k -arch sparc Foo.m -framework Foundation


> The list of undefined symbols
> encompasses even things like _SNDAlloc, although I never go near
> anything to do with sound.

Something you are doing might be indirectly referencing sound code.  Use  
the following frameworks to bring in sound support along with everything  
else.

-framework SoundKit -framework AppKit -framework Foundation

> Second, the NAN problem that I mentioned still persists.

Sorry , but I don't have any cluse on this one.

-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque@wco.com)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: hit test in postscript
Date: 14 Jun 1997 19:02:40 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5nupsg$ep4$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE>
References: <5nub43$k0t$1@imag.imag.fr>
Reply-To: marcel@system.de
NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de

In article <5nub43$k0t$1@imag.imag.fr> Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)  
writes:
> In <5nu4cc$qte$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> marcel@system.de wrote:
> > In article <5nsbpv$qgq$1@imag.imag.fr> Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur  
Stein)  
> > writes:
> > 
> > [Hit testing on OS 4.1/Intel fails]
> >  
> > > newpath
> > > 10000 34 moveto
> > > -2 6 rlineto
> > > 4 0 rlineto
> > > closepath
> > > 10000 38 infill
> > 
> > This infil succeeds on my 4.0/Intel system.  Maybe I shouldn't have
> > ordered 4.2 yesterday?
> Well, I was testing with BeYap; with Yap it works. But changing 10000  
with 
> 30000, it
> doesn't work (that was my original problem, I simplified to 10000 to have 
> more
> beautiful numbers..)

OK, I did some more tests and the cross-over is between 16001 and 16002.

Strange.

Also, it seems to depend on the absolute device coordinate.  The only
thing I can think of is that 16000 is near the maximum size for windows,
so maybe the rationale (or bug) is that the point cannot possibly be
filled if it is outside the window's bounds.

Still seems strange.

Marcel
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From: goldsmith@apple.com (David Goldsmith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:25:28 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 36
Message-ID: 
References: <5mvclb$jb2$1@news.digifix.com>  <5nmf6e$ffg$1@news.intercon.com>  
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In article ,
davep@nospam.com (Dave Polaschek) wrote:
>In article ,
>goldsmith@apple.com (David Goldsmith) wrote:
>> In article <5nmf6e$ffg$1@news.intercon.com>, "Amanda Walker"
>>  wrote:
>> >GX Printing is dead, according to Apple. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics
>> >for the screen but not for printers.
>> No, not quite. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics for printers, just through
>> the classic printing architecture.
>
>David,
>
>You need to be VERY careful about raising people's expectations here.
>MacOS 8 will support GX graphics for printers, but only as bitmaps.
>Support for PostScript generation will not be in 8.0.
>
>-DaveP

Yes, that's correct. Unfortunately, the LaserWriter 8 driver that ships
with Mac OS 8 will send GX data to Postscript printers as
printer-resolution images (slow, but the output will appear correct). There
wasn't time for a better solution. We are planning to move the
GX-to-Postscript code that was in the LaserWriter GX driver into a library
that can be used by the LaserWriter 8 driver, so that GX data gets sent as
Postscript. Unfortunately, I can't say when that will be delivered; I hope
it will be soon. Apple is kind of resource-constrained right now. We're
trying. Really.

-- 
David Goldsmith
Architect
International, Text, and Graphics Group
Apple Computer, Inc.
goldsmith@apple.com

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From: "Dhani Nugraha" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: I need help
Date: 15 Jun 1997 00:37:08 GMT
Organization: Voice Underground Daily
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Please help me,i need a IBM Aptiva.Where is the place to buy it?
Please reply.
-- 
Dhani Nugraha
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Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:51:41 -0600
From: Rene Berber 
Subject: Re: nib/InterfaceBuilder.h
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <866335365.8210@dejanews.com>
Reply-To: rberber@spin.com.mx
Organization: Deja News USENET Posting Service
X-Article-Creation-Date: Sun Jun 15 00:42:45 1997 GMT
X-Originating-IP-Addr: 200.12.165.51 (verbum03.spin.com.mx)
X-Http-User-Agent: OmniWeb/2.5-beta-6 OWF/1.0
X-Authenticated-Sender: Rene Berber 
Lines: 17

beauvois@usa.net wrote:
>
> I'm trying to port some code from NS 2.0/1 to 3.3 but can't figure
> out what to replace the old  header file
> with.
>
> Anyone know ?

Try #import 

---
Rene Berber
rberber@spin.com.mx
MIME / NeXT Mail welcomed

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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From: luomat@peak.org (Timothy J. Luoma)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: wu-ftpd: link statically 'ls' etc ?
Date: 14 Jun 1997 17:39:07 GMT
Organization: The PEAK FTP Archive for NEXTSTEP/OpenStep
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5nukvr$asn$1@bashir.peak.org>
References:  
Reply-To: luomat@peak.org
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In  Charles William Swiger wrote:
> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 12-Jun-97 wu-ftpd: link
> statically 'l.. by "Timothy J. Luoma"@peak. 
> > wu-ftpd suggests statically linked binaries
> >  
> > Can this be done under NS/OS (3.3/4.1)?
> 
> Yes, but most likely you're going to have to do a lot more work than you
> really want to.


Ok.... it sounds like the alternative is to make the shlib's available on the 
ftp site itself.....

For some systems this is not considered a safe plan.   I hate to ask but any 
chance that OS4.1 is a safe one?

Thanks

TjL


--
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NeXT bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html
sed 's/End\ of\ sig/pithy\ quotation/g'

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From: luomat@peak.org (Timothy J. Luoma)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: 14 Jun 1997 18:03:37 GMT
Organization: The PEAK FTP Archive for NEXTSTEP/OpenStep
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5numdp$asn$3@bashir.peak.org>
References: <5npof5$jlf@tribune.usask.ca> <33A27FB5.6635@ergotech.com>
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Cc: jim@ergotech.com

In <33A27FB5.6635@ergotech.com> Jim Redman wrote:

> Since 4.2 is still prerelease and still under NDA

I was told (by NeXT) that 4.2 was publically available as of 13 May 1997.

This message seems to have appeared at my news server in 14 June, but they 
have had some old posts come back from time to time, so I may just be behind 
on when this thread was around....

TjL

--
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NeXT bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html
sed 's/End\ of\ sig/pithy\ quotation/g'

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Date: 15 Jun 1997 01:45:21 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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NNTP-Posting-Host: cwolf.vip.best.com
In-Reply-To: 
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 06/13/97, David Evans wrote:

>>Also, if I wish to make the main code
>>say a Perl script or csh script does Open Step support the possibility
>>and if it does, how does it know which execution environment to start?
>
>  That should work fine, provided your script starts with the "#!/bin/csh" (or
>whatever) magic cookie.  The kernel understands such things.  However, the
>utility of this inside an app wrapper is questionable, since stdout will go to
>the console and there's no stdin (as far as I know).

I thought it would work fine too -- until I tried it.  It didn't work under 
NeXTSTEP 3.3 for me.  

- Chris

>
>-- 
>David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
>Computer/Synth Junkie                      http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
>University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
>Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Version control in 4.2prerelease?
Date: 15 Jun 1997 01:48:34 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 38
Message-ID: <5nvhli$5jr$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 06/14/97, Georg Tuparev wrote:
>By adding CVS or PVCS, making some hacks to IB and PB (mine will be submitted  
>one day), and cross your fingers. Being religios might also help especially if  
>you pray very hard before start using the SCM module ;-)
> 
>In article <5ntj9k$ajg$1@owl> Dru Nelson  writes:
>> 
>> 
>> How can one add RCS/whatever so project builder uses version
>> control?

Another option you may want to look into is DevMan from VNP (www.vnp.com) 
(although Devman was recently bought by Sun.)  It doesn't offer full integration 
with DevMan but it's a very robust and nice to use GUI front-end for RCS under 
NeXTSTEP and OpenStep.

- Chris

>
>--
>-------
> /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
>/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street 
>\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
> \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
>       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Version control in 4.2prerelease?
Date: 15 Jun 1997 03:37:10 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5nvo16$6ub$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 06/14/97, Christopher Wolf wrote:
>On 06/14/97, Georg Tuparev wrote:
>>By adding CVS or PVCS, making some hacks to IB and PB (mine will be submitted  
>>one day), and cross your fingers. Being religios might also help especially if  
>>you pray very hard before start using the SCM module ;-)
>> 
>>In article <5ntj9k$ajg$1@owl> Dru Nelson  writes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> How can one add RCS/whatever so project builder uses version
>>> control?
>
>Another option you may want to look into is DevMan from VNP (www.vnp.com) 
>(although Devman was recently bought by Sun.)  It doesn't offer full 
>integration with DevMan but it's a very robust and nice to use GUI 
                  ^^^^^^ d'oh I meant Project Builder here of course

>front-end for RCS under NeXTSTEP and OpenStep.
>



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <14012865742421@digifix.com>
Date: 15 Jun 1997 03:57:19 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Lines: 344
Approved: sanguish@digifix.com
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Topics include:
        Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
        eduSTEP WWW site
        NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
        comp.sys.next newsgroups
        related newsgroups
        comp.sys.next newsgroups mailing list
        ftp sites
        NeXTanswers


Stepwise NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information WWW site
===============================================

This online community resource includes
        - ISV company pages
        - ISV product descriptions
        - NEXTSTEP Developer Directory
        - NEXTSTEP Community WhitePages
        - Mailing List archives and information

You can connect via the world wide web at:

        http://www.stepwise.com/

Suggestions or comments can be directed to me at sanguish@digifix.com

If you would like to get your company and product information on
Stepwise, please contact me at sanguish@digifix.com.


eduSTEP WWW site
================

        http://www.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/eduStep/

eduStep aims to provide up-to-date information on:

- NextStep tools and projects for scientists.
- Third-party products interesting for the educational and scientific
  community (with educational discounts noted, where they exist).
- A listing of resellers and shops interested in working with
  customers in the educational community.
- Conferences, meetings, workshops
- Major projects, such as SciTools, EMBL's project to develop a
  NextStep scientific work environment
- Status reports on GNUStep, a freely-available implementation
  of OpenStep now being developed


NeXT Computer, Inc. WWW site
============================

        http://www.next.com

        


comp.sys.next.* newsgroups
==========================

news:comp.sys.next.advocacy

 This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything else in
 the known universe" forum. It was created specifically to divert lengthy
 flame wars from .misc.


news:comp.sys.next.announce

 Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new products,
 FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial announcements etc.)

 This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post to it
 directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to next-announce@digifix.com
 where the moderator (Scott Anguish) will screen them for suitability.


 Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
 to any other comp.sys.next groups.

news:comp.sys.next.bugs

 A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software. Material
 e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so this is a place for
 the net community find out about problems when they're discovered. This
 newsgroup has a very poor signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post
 stuff here that really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense
 to crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but individual
 reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT- specific groups as well.


news:comp.sys.next.hardware

 Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
 and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible with
 NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware are better
 asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about SCSI devices
 belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place to buy or sell used
 NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.


news:comp.sys.next.marketplace

 NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
 crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be crossposted to
 misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate regional newsgroups.


news:comp.sys.next.misc

 For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post here
 by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e. no
 crossposting!!!


news:comp.sys.next.programmer

 Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers. This is
 primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

 Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions), although
 specific questions about NeXT's implementation or porting issues are
 appropriate here. Note that there are several other more "horizontal"
 newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c, comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach,
 comp.protocols.tcp-ip, etc.) that may also be of interest.


news:comp.sys.next.software

 This is a place to talk about [third party] software products that run
 on NEXTSTEP systems.


news:comp.sys.next.sysadmin

 Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare cases this
 will spill over into .programmer or .software.



Related Newsgroups
==================

news:comp.soft-sys.nextstep

 Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined. Exists
 because NeXT is a software-only company now, and comp.soft-sys is for
 discussion of software systems with scope similar to NEXTSTEP.

        
news:comp.lang.objective-c

 Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations discussed
 include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.


news:comp.object

 Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion, but NeXT
 and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At times gets almost
 philosophical about objects, but then again OOP allows one to be a
 programmer/philosopher.
        
(The original comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to
 post to it.)

Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements of usenet RFDs
or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups moderator, may be
simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.* newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================
Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups are
 now available as a mailing list digest as well.

        next-nextstep
        next-advocacy
        next-announce
        next-bugs
        next-hardware
        next-marketplace
        next-misc
        next-programmer
        next-software
        next-sysadmin
        object
        lang-objective-c

(For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).

The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.

To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:

        subscribe

where * is the name of the list
e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



The ftp sites
=============
ftp://ftp.next.peak.org                   - The main site for North 
                                            American submissions
                                            formerly ftp.cs.orst.edu
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:     - (Peanuts) Located in Germany.
ftp://ftp.dn.net/pub/next                 - Peanuts mirror in the US
ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl              - (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it                - (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next - eduStep
ftp://ftp.next.com:                       - See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 14 Jun 1997 19:30:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Lines: 46
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References: 
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To: "David Goldsmith" 
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David Goldsmith  said:

> Yes, that's correct. Unfortunately, the LaserWriter 8 driver that ships
> with Mac OS 8 will send GX data to Postscript printers as
> printer-resolution images (slow, but the output will appear correct).
There
> wasn't time for a better solution. We are planning to move the
> GX-to-Postscript code that was in the LaserWriter GX driver into a
library
> that can be used by the LaserWriter 8 driver, so that GX data gets sent
as
> Postscript. Unfortunately, I can't say when that will be delivered; I
hope
> it will be soon. Apple is kind of resource-constrained right now. We're
> trying. Really.

This is good to hear. Keep in mind the possibility for at  least SOME GX
Printing like functinality by providing a pipeline with hooks for 3rd
parties to add GX Display List editing and so on.

The ideal solution would be to add GX Print driver information to the
classic drivers that only the GX print library routines would know about.
This would give GX applications at least some of the functionality that
they are loosing.

Don't make this a private revision closed to the public. Let the GX
developers and wannabe developers and users provide feedback and input on
GX-Talk about what kind of functionality *could* be preserved and how.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO GX-TALK?
---------------------------------

To subscribe to GX-TALK proceed as follows:

     Send E-mail to:

           

     with anything in the subject line and the following command as the
     first (and only) line of the message body:

          SUBSCRIBE
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: 15 Jun 1997 04:06:02 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <5nvpna$hro$1@news.digifix.com>
References: <5npof5$jlf@tribune.usask.ca> <33A27FB5.6635@ergotech.com> <5numdp$asn$3@bashir.peak.org>
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On 06/14/97, Timothy J. Luoma wrote:
>In <33A27FB5.6635@ergotech.com> Jim Redman wrote:
>
>> Since 4.2 is still prerelease and still under NDA
>
>I was told (by NeXT) that 4.2 was publically available as of 13 May 
1997.
>
>This message seems to have appeared at my news server in 14 June, but 
they 
>have had some old posts come back from time to time, so I may just be 
behind 
>on when this thread was around....
>

	4.2 was 'released' the first week of June according to 
something that was mailed to EAPs..


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 


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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Version control in 4.2prerelease?
Date: 15 Jun 1997 04:07:28 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <5nvpq0$hrq$1@news.digifix.com>
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On 06/14/97, Christopher Wolf wrote:
>On 06/14/97, Georg Tuparev wrote:
>>By adding CVS or PVCS, making some hacks to IB and PB (mine will be 
submitted  
>>one day), and cross your fingers. Being religios might also help 
especially if  
>>you pray very hard before start using the SCM module ;-)
>> 
>>In article <5ntj9k$ajg$1@owl> Dru Nelson  writes:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> How can one add RCS/whatever so project builder uses version
>>> control?
>
>Another option you may want to look into is DevMan from VNP
>(www.vnp.com)  (although Devman was recently bought by Sun.)  It
>doesn't offer full integration  with DevMan but it's a very robust
>and nice to use GUI front-end for RCS under  NeXTSTEP and OpenStep.
>

	I'd be surprised if Sun is still selling DevMan on OpenStep... 

	After all, OpenStep isn't Java..


-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 


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From: beatty@netcom.com (Derek Lee Beatty)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.graphics,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.comm,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.mac.misc,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Re: Rhapsody features?
Date: 14 Jun 1997 04:40:16 GMT
Organization: none
Lines: 13
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References: <5lvn4l$tje@src-news.pa.dec.com> <3385FA0F.5439@abacus.com>  <5nnres$390$2@kaopala.mhpcc.edu>
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decoy_id@no_junk_on_the.net (L e e Altenberg) wrote:
>Could anyone explain why an OS optimized for use as a server would not 
>also be optimal for a workstation?

To be concise but rather general:
 - On a workstation, you want to respond to the user with low latency.
 - On a server, you want to maximize overall throughput.

-- 
Derek Lee Beatty          _                       Death
beatty@netcom.com       _| ~-,                    Taxes
Austin, Texas           \, * }                     C++
                          \_(
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 14 Jun 1997 13:17:06 -0700
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Dave Polaschek  said:
goldsmith@apple.com (David Goldsmith) wrote:

> > No, not quite. MacOS 8 will support GX graphics for printers, just
through
> > the classic printing architecture.
> 
> David,
> 
> You need to be VERY careful about raising people's expectations here.
> MacOS 8 will support GX graphics for printers, but only as bitmaps.
> Support for PostScript generation will not be in 8.0.

Which is just plain stupid. The GX => PS translation algorithms already
exist. In fact, a substantial portion of the functionality of GX Printing
could be re-implemented as a set of shared libraries and components that
printed to the Classic Printing model rather than to individual drivers.

WIll Apple do this?

No.

Why?

A combination of money and politics. GX Printing is far, FAR more useful
than what Rhapsody will provide for the forseeable future. It isn't good
for Gil Amelio's career if non-RHapsody printing offers more power than
Rhapsody printing.

Apple has essentially crippled its "Windows 95" OS in order to make its
"Windows 95" OS look good in comparison.

Not so impressive, Dr. Gil.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


####################################################################
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 06:51:42 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> This reply was sent to me from Joel Breckinridge, who doesn't have
> newsgroup access:
> 
> Joel Breckinridge  said:
> 
> > 
> > While this is true, it does not answer the fact that PostScript (I'm not 
> > talking DPS here) is insufficient for Japanese DTP needs or any 2 byte 
> > needs. I have been with it since the start in 1989 and Japanese PS is 
> > difficult to kern, mutiple weights are large, unweildy and take up too 
> > much memory, this is just for starters. As I said earlier on the GX list:
> > 
> > 'If anybody cares to know, there are no Mutiple Master Japanese fonts, 
> > (or any 2 byte MM fonts, but there are some GX Japanese fonts) and there 
> > is no way to embed most Japanese type 1 fonts in the recently released 
> > Acrobat 3.0 J (the first to support 2 byte characters). Outside of GX, 2 
> > byte PDA is a kludge and sucks, to put it mildly.'

Snip, snip, snip.

But isn't this all just another red herring since Apple has announced that
GX typography will make it to Tempo?

-- 
Regards,

Joe Ragosta
joe.ragosta@dol.net
Visit the Complete Macintosh Web Site
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
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From: 38433@ix93384.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Cheerleaders are so sweet...!
Date: 15 Jun 1997 08:58:38 GMT
Organization: Pinnacle Online
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <5o0aru$go1$152@nw001.infi.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pm9-179.orf.infi.net


Hey, just thought i'd share with everyone,
I found a site with loads of nude CHEERLEADERs. The
address is:

            http://www.mid-night.com

--Jason--

(Sorry for the intrusion, everyone needs some short skirts in their life)

P.S. They also a have spanish / latina women archive
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From: 38433@ix93384.net
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X-No-Archive: yes

EMP/ECP spam cancelled by hweede@berlin.snafu.de. This is an ongoing spam
whose Breidbart index already is above 20.
See my report "www.mid-night.com" 
or "summary of auto-cancellations" in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.
Subject was: Cheerleaders are so sweet...!.
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From: szallies@gehirnbrei.energotec.de (Constantin Szallies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: DO question: trapping client deaths
Date: 9 Jun 1997 16:12:45 GMT
Organization: Technet GmbH
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frank@ali.bc.ca (Frank Pang) wrote:
>In NS3.3:
>I have a program using DO where a client can send messages for the server  
>to do some fetching and processing.  In the meantime, there's a  
>possibility that the client dies before the server is able to send a reply  
>to the client.  In this scenario, the server will try to send a message to  
>a dead client, causing [myNXConnection run] to exit.  Is this an exception  
>condition?  It doesn't seem to raise exceptions.  What's a clean way to  
>handle client deaths / invalid connections?  And where can I get some  
>sample code for this?  Thanks.

What do you mean by "sending a reply" to the client?
There are two possibilities:
1) The client calls a remove method on the server. The client dies before the 
invokation is completed. In this case the connection should not exit! The 
reply is just thrown away.
1) The client calls a remove method on the server, the server does a callback 
to the client and the cleint dies. The server receives an exception which 
must be caught by the server.

Greetings
CS
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 15 Jun 1997 11:57:00 -0700
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Joe Ragosta  said:

[discussion of GX font features that make them superior to PostSCript]

> 
> Snip, snip, snip.
> 
> But isn't this all just another red herring since Apple has announced
that
> GX typography will make it to Tempo?

But FontWorks won't be able to use its compressed Japanese fonts because
Rhapsody's implementation of GX Typography won't allow plug-in renderers in
[at least] the first release, and no time-table has been set to include
this feature (not surprising -why should Adobe allow anyone to compete with
them on type fonts?).

Since Japanese fonts can take up to 6 MB, whereas FOntWork's custom
Japanese fonts only take up 1.6 MB, this means that Rhapsody will require
nearly 4x the space for Japanese fonts that GX would since FontWorks has a
custom GX rendering engine for displaying these fonts.

When you add to the equation the fact that GX allows one to parse the
actual characters used in a print job and download to a printer ONLY those
characters that are actually used on a page whereas Rhapsody apparently
won't support  GX-like functionality in this area (since it requires a
GX-like display list to be the standard way in which print jobs are
created), this means that Rhapsody printing of Japanese won't be as
efficient or as fast as GX printing.

WHich means that Amanda's claim that GX wasn't as worthwhile for Japanese
DTP makes no sense in this context.

-Especially since Apple ships Ready, Set, Go GX as THE desktop publishing
app bundled with every Macintosh sold in China, which I'm willing to be has
much of the same  requirements for DTP apps as Japan. Obviously Apple felt
that GX offered a distinct advantage for Chinese DTP or they would have
bundled a PostSCript-using DTP app, right?

Face it, Joe, as Tom Bayly said on Carpe.Diem: there's no doubt which is a
better graphics system.

And it is NOT Display PostScript.

Or, as Steve Wozniak said in an interview: "They may think that they've got
the better technology, but they don't."

And the Woz's official job at Apple right now is to seek out the best
technologies available, so he is speaking directly to his official
"expertise" at Apple (of course, you can argue that Steve Wozniak really
isn't competent to evaluate Apple vs Other technologies, but that's what
they say that they're using him for, so they appear to be ignoring the
advice of their own in-house expert about technologies, which I'm guessing
includes GX/Taligent vs Display PostSCript, since it is so obviously the
case).

Don't worry, Joe. Very shortly, you too can become totally incensed at the
lack of willingness to use  superior Apple technologies over NeXT
technologies.

You're going to love the abilities of GX printing that Apple is giving up
with MacOS 8 that will be IMPOSSIBLE to implement in Rhapsody without
decreeing and enforcing some kind of GX-like shape-type strategy.

You may even be inspired to write a letter to Apple complaining about your
loss.

If you've ever been able to express disapproval of anything that ANY
current Apple management team has ever done, of course.


BTW, Joe, GX Typography includes the ability to assign a custom layer to a
type font that may include a 3D perspective. Since Display PostSCript
doesn't support 3D perspectives, how is it possible for RHapsody Graphics
to implement ALL of GX Typography?

ANd if it isn't possible, how can you automatically assume that any
specific (and possibly valueable) feature of GX Typography will make it
into Rhapsody Graphics?

Blind loyalty is, well, blind...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: attainment 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer
Subject: Free online pubication - Attainment adding Software Developers' column
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 12:27:58 -0700
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Subject: Free online pubication - Attainment adding Software Developers' column


I thought programmers who are software entrepreneurs would appreciate
knowing that we've added a column to our free online publication that will
deal with software issues, and how to build a business selling software
online and off.

It's located at

     http://www.abiogenesis.com/attainment

Look for the article labelled Selling Your Software.  The first
installment is written by Julie Benson, who has a decidedly 'individual'
take on these things.  More are in the works, and if you're interested in
contributing, writers' guidelines are listed there, as well.


Attainment Editor

===========================================================================
                     ATTAINMENT Business Startup Journal(tm)
              A N   A B I O G E N E S I S   P U B L I C A T I O N

A practical, how-to resource for business owners and entrepreneurs who are
seeking day-to-day financing, production and marketing resources for
establishing and running their startup businesses.
                      http://www.abiogenesis.com/attainment


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From: Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: hit test in postscript
Date: 15 Jun 1997 19:07:02 GMT
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Cc: marcel@system.de

In <5nupsg$ep4$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> marcel@system.de wrote:
> In article <5nub43$k0t$1@imag.imag.fr> Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur Stein)  
> writes:
> > In <5nu4cc$qte$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> marcel@system.de wrote:
> > > In article <5nsbpv$qgq$1@imag.imag.fr> Benhur.Stein@imag.fr (Benhur  
> Stein)  
> > > writes:
> > > 
> > > [Hit testing on OS 4.1/Intel fails]
> > >  
> > > > newpath
> > > > 30000 34 moveto
> > > > -2 6 rlineto
> > > > 4 0 rlineto
> > > > closepath
> > > > 30000 38 infill
> OK, I did some more tests and the cross-over is between 16001 and 16002.
> 
> [...]
> Still seems strange.
>
What I think is the most strange is that it actually draws to the screen with 
these same
values!

Benhur

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From: bchin@NOSPAM.richmond.freedomnet.com (Bill Chin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: 16 Jun 1997 04:25:28 GMT
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eric@skatter.USask.Ca wrote:
>Would someone out there running OPENSTEP 4.2 try my famous printf
>test program? 

With the released version of OPENSTEP 4.2/Mach for Intel:

nikita> cc -v
Reading specs from /lib/i386/specs
NeXT Software, Inc. version cc-744.13, gcc version 2.7.2.1
nikita> a.out
Expect 0.00123: 0.001
Expect 123: 123.457
Expect 123.5: 123.4567
Expect 1e+03: 999.6

This is with a fresh install.

-- 
Bill Chin - bchin@richmond.freedomnet.com - NeXTmail/MIME welcomed
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From: taustin@ozemail.com.au (T. Austin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Australian OpenStep commercial developers
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:04:39 +1100
Organization: Swinburne University
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If there are any Australian developers out there. I'd like to hear from you.
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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude2Rhapsody on black hardware!
Date: 16 Jun 1997 15:43:32 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
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In  it appeared that 
Rob Barris wrote:
>    I finally got around to trying the Prelude OpenStep 4.2 CDROM on my
> 68040 NextStation Turbo.  After mounting the disc, running Upgrader.app and
> then clearing off some disk space by its advice, the install worked!
> 
>    After having heard from any number of people "nahhh, it's an Intel only
> release" it was a pleasant surprise indeed to see that the discs from WWDC
> were actually fat builds for both Intel and "black" NeXT hardware. (So far
> I've only installed the User side FWIW)
> 
>    However I only have a 240MB HD in that machine, and now it's full. Looks
> like I need to swap in a 1GB drive or something before I continue with
> installing the "Developer" disc.

Hi Rob,

You may know this already, but when slipping a new disk into a NeXTstation, 
remember to stay away from the newest (7200RPM) disks like the SeaGate 
Baracuda.  It's an excellent disk, but it's too hot for the machine.  If you 
keep the room temperature very cool (less than 70 or so) it would  be fine, 
but if the room temp gets up to about 80, you'll probably start to see kernel 
panics which result from an overheated CPU.

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep  MachOS
PLATINUM technology, inc.          | \ o.O|   Objective-C
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=     the Dock
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

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From: droege@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Detlev Droege)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Version control in 4.2prerelease?
Date: 16 Jun 1997 17:19:58 GMT
Organization: University Koblenz / Germany
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Distribution: world
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References: <5ntj9k$ajg$1@owl>
NNTP-Posting-Host: nifty.uni-koblenz.de

In article <5ntj9k$ajg$1@owl> Dru Nelson  writes:
> 
> 
> How can one add RCS/whatever so project builder uses version
> control?

Have a look in
  /NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/ProjectBuilderSCM.rtfd


	Detlev
--
Detlev Droege, Uni Koblenz, FB Informatik, Rheinau 1, D-56075 Koblenz, Germany
Tel:+49 261 9119-421,Fax:-497,NeXT/MIME/Emil: droege@informatik.uni-koblenz.de

  C++ is the only current language making COBOL look good. --Bertrand Meyer
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From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude2Rhapsody on black hardware!
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 10:56:06 -0700
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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In article <5o3mv4$rh7$1@news.platinum.com>, gary-nospam-@screaming.org
(Gary W. Longsine) wrote:

> In  it appeared that 
> Rob Barris wrote:
> >    I finally got around to trying the Prelude OpenStep 4.2 CDROM on my
> > 68040 NextStation Turbo.  After mounting the disc, running Upgrader.app and
> > then clearing off some disk space by its advice, the install worked!
> > 
> >    After having heard from any number of people "nahhh, it's an Intel only
> > release" it was a pleasant surprise indeed to see that the discs from WWDC
> > were actually fat builds for both Intel and "black" NeXT hardware. (So far
> > I've only installed the User side FWIW)
> > 
> >    However I only have a 240MB HD in that machine, and now it's full. Looks
> > like I need to swap in a 1GB drive or something before I continue with
> > installing the "Developer" disc.
> 
> Hi Rob,
> 
> You may know this already, but when slipping a new disk into a NeXTstation, 
> remember to stay away from the newest (7200RPM) disks like the SeaGate 
> Baracuda.  It's an excellent disk, but it's too hot for the machine.  If you 
> keep the room temperature very cool (less than 70 or so) it would  be fine, 
> but if the room temp gets up to about 80, you'll probably start to see kernel 
> panics which result from an overheated CPU.
> 
   Thanks Gary - yes, looking inside the NeXT machine I was reminded of the
Power Mac 6100 in terms of "close quarters" spacing and airflow, definitely
not the best place for one of those scorcher drives.

   BTW I have a Conner 1080S; it came out of my 8500 and it doesn't play
friendly when attached to the external NeXT bus (parity errors on boot,
system can't talk to the primary internal drive, etc). I found the Conner
PDF file for this drive but there do not appear to be any jumpers for
parity or anything else besides SCSI ID... any ideas?  The next thing I
will try is pulling the terminating resistor packs off of the Conner and
see if that makes any difference.

   (I only paid $450 for the NextStation-Turbo-mono, something about paying
$200 for a new 1GB drive to go with it rubs me the wrong way, but if I
can't get this old drive working with it I might just give up and do it)

Rob Barris      Quicksilver Software Inc.  rbarris@quicksilver.com
   * Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer *
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 16 Jun 1997 13:23:42 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Message-ID: <5o3eou$rkt$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
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On 06/14/97, "Lawson English" wrote:

>A combination of money and politics. GX Printing is far, FAR more useful
>than what Rhapsody will provide for the forseeable future. It isn't good
>for Gil Amelio's career if non-RHapsody printing offers more power than
>Rhapsody printing.
>
What drivel.

We have discussed ad nauseum why it makes sense for Rhapsody to use DPS; 
you've conceded yourself (unless I misunderstood) that it would not be in 
AppLE's interests to delay Rhapsody's release until GX is debugged and 
shoehorned in.

I look forward to seeing enhanced GX-like/derived capabilities in Rhapsody 
*in the fullness of time*.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 16 Jun 1997 13:35:00 -0700
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mmalcolm crawford  said:

> We have discussed ad nauseum why it makes sense for Rhapsody to use
> DPS; 
> you've conceded yourself (unless I misunderstood) that it would not be in

> AppLE's interests to delay Rhapsody's release until GX is debugged and 
> shoehorned in.
> 
> I look forward to seeing enhanced GX-like/derived capabilities in
Rhapsody 
> *in the fullness of time*.


But when? And in the meantime, GX is being crippled on MacOS as of MacOS 8.

Here's a [partial] list of what you will NOT see with Rhapsody graphics in
the near future, as far as I can tell:

3D perspective for shapes, collections of shapes and views.

3D perspective for individual glyphs in a line of text.

Transparency modes using Porter-Duff compositing on a PER COLOR CHANNEL
basis.

Retained mode interface for both text and graphics without using a kludgey,
disorganized, pseudo-object-oriented class design that doesn't acknowledge
that a bitmap is a first class graphical shape, but instead implements it
in an entirely different part of the framework. Ditto with text.

No text-oriented hit-testing that makes use of a shape's transform matrix
automatically. No auto-hit-testing of glyphs during font rendering to make
sure that Hoefler Italic's more complicated glyphs aren't overlapping with
the rest of a text-string and allowing for simplified font-substitution
when such a case occurs.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

Now, on the MacOS side, MacOS 8 loses ALL of GX Printing. That means that
an application can no longer grab the print job before it is  spooled to
disk and make further modifications. That means that GX Printing extensions
can't grab the job AFTER it is spooled to disk and make automatic
modifications to the display-list-based GX Print job. There are over 100
messages defined that applications and extensions can override to modify
the print stream. Since there is a well-defined, *SIMPLE TO EDIT*,
universally available display-list for GX printing used in all GX Printing,
one can do just about anything that one desires to that print stream. As
long as it can be automated using GX graphics/typography calls, it can be
accomplished.

If GX Extensions can send/receive AppleSCript messages, you can even alter
the contents of a print job, IN THE PRINT STREAM, from within my HyperCard
stack (not sure if this last is possible -depends on the AE-ability of GX
printing extensions -HyperCard can certainly handle it).

The irony of all this is that OpenStep's dynamic messaging would make all
of this MUCH easier than the kludgey System 7.x way of doing things. You
could take GX drivers and make the info available to Rhapsody graphics to
allow for a much more flexable printing system that what is currently
possible using GX.

But you need a well-defined display list that stays constant throughout the
entire print process. You can't do GX-like things automatically using EPS
and Display PostScript. Presumably they are aware of this and are working
on it, but given statements from Apple management like "Java does what
OpenDoc does" and so on, I'm not convinced that they have a clue. Like as
not, they'll use PDF and call the resultant subset of GX Printing
capabilities "a miracle of Rhapsody engineering."

And regardless of what Rhapsody can do, that doesn't help ANY current MacOS
user for the next 12-18 months. GX, until MacOS 8, can do things like print
to  etching machines. Print transparency to pen plotters. Redirect print
output from one page type to another as needed. Embedd multiple layers of
transparent water marks in different layers of the graphics/text on the
page. Apply 3D perspective to designated elements of the page. Print to
level 1 PostScript printers using Level 2-type features. Apply multiple
printing extensions in a user-sequenced cascade to a single print job.
Print to any device resolution up to 20" on -a-side with 1 million DPI.

Etc.

As I said:

>A combination of money and politics [killing GX Printing]. GX Printing is
far, 
>FAR more useful
>than what Rhapsody will provide for the forseeable future. It isn't good
>for Gil Amelio's career if non-RHapsody printing offers more power than
>Rhapsody printing.

And so they cripple GX Printing to make Rhapsody look better.

Sorry Gil, but it ain't going to work. 


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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To subscribe to GX-TALK proceed as follows:

     Send E-mail to:

           

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From: alvin@cse.ucsc.edu (Alvin Jee)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: hit test in postscript
Date: 16 Jun 1997 20:15:07 GMT
Organization: UC Santa Cruz CS/CE
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5o46sb$jvk@darkstar.ucsc.edu>
References: <5nsbpv$qgq$1@imag.imag.fr> <5nu4cc$qte$1@brachio.zrz.TU-Berlin.DE> <5nub43$k0t$1@imag.imag.fr>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ren.cse.ucsc.edu

In article <5nub43$k0t$1@imag.imag.fr>,
Benhur Stein  wrote:
>Well, I was testing with BeYap; with Yap it works. But changing 10000 with 
>30000, it
>doesn't work (that was my original problem, I simplified to 10000 to have 
>more
>beautiful numbers..)

  Ahhh.. there's the problem. I ran into this problem also. I found this
note in the PSOperators man page (GeneralRef/05_DisplayPS/Operators):

Repositions and resizes the specified window, effectively allowing it
to be resized from any corner or point.  x, y, width, and height are
given in the screen coordinate system.  No portion of the repositioned
window can have an x or y coordinate with an absolute value greater
than 16000; width and height must be in the range from 0 to 10000. 
The four operands can be integer or real numbers; however, they
are converted to integers in the Window Server by rounding toward 0.  

This was from the "placewindow" operator.


-- 
Alvin Jee
alvin@neander.com
http://www.neander.com
NeXTMail gleefully accepted!
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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Date: 16 Jun 1997 23:18:20 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <5o4hjs$h6q$1@concorde.ctp.com>
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In article <5nul7q$asn$2@bashir.peak.org> luomat@peak.org (Timothy J. Luoma)  
writes:
> 
> Am I nutty in the head or do I have some vague recollection of something in 
> 4.x that allowed a script to be wrapped as an app?

Probably you've read the stuff about how to wrap a script or any other (Unix)  
utility in a service?!?! This is really nifty.

later 

-- georg --


--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street 
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: "Robert H. Mann" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Device Driver Dilemma
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:38:09 +0000
Organization: All USENET -- http://www.Supernews.com
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I would like to run  OS 4.2 on my PowerMac 6100 that has a 486DX
processor in it but the right SCSI drivers don't exist to my knowledge.

Any tips on making these beasts.  I can run OS entreprise on Win95 if I
have to but that sounds pretty disgusting.

Thanks so much
Robert H. Mann
Director of Technology
Nevada Wallboards
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 16 Jun 1997 22:12:21 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
Message-ID: <5o4do5$77s$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>
References: <5o3eou$rkt$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> 
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On 06/16/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>But when? And in the meantime, GX is being crippled on MacOS as of MacOS 8.
>
Are you sure?

>Here's a [partial] list of what you will NOT see with Rhapsody graphics in
>the near future, as far as I can tell:
>
GOOD!

This means that AppLE will be concentrating on what they should be doing -- 
getting Rhapsody out of the door as quickly as possible to address the 
market sector to which it is relevant.  It has clearly escaped your 
attention that this is, primarily, *not* AppLE's traditional marketplace, 
it's the enterprise market, which in general cares little about the 
multimedia aspects of their system, and more about stability and 
productivity.

Really, get a grip.  Get a clue.  And get out of csna.  Please.

mmalc.


-- 


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From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Date: 17 Jun 1997 06:08:29 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
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cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
> On 06/13/97, David Evans wrote:
> 
> >>Also, if I wish to make the main code
> >>say a Perl script or csh script does Open Step support the possibility
> >>and if it does, how does it know which execution environment to start?
> >
> >  That should work fine, provided your script starts with the
> >  "#!/bin/csh" (or
> >whatever) magic cookie.  The kernel understands such things.
> >However, the utility of this inside an app wrapper is questionable,
> >since stdout will go to the console and there's no stdin (as far
> >as I know).
> 
> I thought it would work fine too -- until I tried it.  It didn't work under 
> NeXTSTEP 3.3 for me.  

It never worked for me. Neither does it in 4.1. If I double click the "app" 
the console shows

Jun 17 08:06:30 Workspace: Cannot exec /tmp/foo.app: (not a valid program)

:-(

I would have loved to have such a scripted app.

-dirk

---
______________________________________________________________________
Dirk Olmes      OBJECT FACTORY
                Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
                Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany
                Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0
                Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99
                dirk@object-factory.com
                http://www.object-factory.com/

Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95
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From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Hair Pulling with my first stab at IB! (please help :-))
Date: 17 Jun 1997 06:17:32 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
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arti@address.in.signature (Art Isbell) wrote:
> > 
> > So you just have to edit 
> > /NextDeveloper/Apps/InterfaceBuilder.app/Resources/images.table and add 
> > NSReturnSign. Restart IB and everything should be fine.
> 
>     No, no, no!!!  Don't recommend this sort of hack to new
>     developers.  The
> NSReturnSign is no longer used to signify the default button -
> the one that  will be pressed when the RETURN/ENTER key is pressed.
> Forget about  NSReturnSign.

Since I don't care too much about the windows-like new style I will continue 
to use good old NSReturnSign.
The last time we had this question here it was quite hard to explain that 
everything will work just fine without the NSReturnSign. So give'em the 
answer and everything is fine.

>     Instead, enter "\r" as the button's or buttonCell's key in
>     its Attributes
> Inspector.  At runtime, this will result in a dark border around
> this button.

Yes, but this isn't by far as intuitive as the NSReturnSign. BTW: What if you 
enter '\r' in more than one button's key attribute?

-dirk

---
______________________________________________________________________
Dirk Olmes      OBJECT FACTORY
                Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
                Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany
                Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0
                Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99
                dirk@object-factory.com
                http://www.object-factory.com/

Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95
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From: csaldanh@mae.carleton.ca (Chris Saldanha)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Sending "terminate" to an app
Date: 16 Jun 1997 22:14:36 GMT
Organization: Carleton University, Ottawa, Canada
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I have a system running 3.3 but we've replaced the workspace with another
restricted shell (essentially a button bar which launches only a select
set of apps). We run it by changing the "loginwindow Workspace" default.

I'm trying to figure out how to send a terminate: message to the various
running apps in the way that the workspace does upon logout, so that I can
cleanly shutdown all the apps, even though I don't have source for the
third-party ones.

Any ideas? I couldn't find any documentation on this one...

--Chris
Chris Saldanha                        | DAR HARM FISH EM LIVE ROSY
Carleton University (Comp. Sci)       | 
csaldanh@mae.carleton.ca  (NeXT/MIME) |        -Another knee-slapper
http://www.mae.carleton.ca/~csaldanh  |         from S/Key 
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From: d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 17 Jun 1997 08:54:08 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>mmalcolm crawford  said:
>
>> We have discussed ad nauseum why it makes sense for Rhapsody to use
>> DPS; 
>> you've conceded yourself (unless I misunderstood) that it would not be in
>
>> AppLE's interests to delay Rhapsody's release until GX is debugged and 
>> shoehorned in.
>> 
>> I look forward to seeing enhanced GX-like/derived capabilities in
>Rhapsody 
>> *in the fullness of time*.
>
>
>But when? And in the meantime, GX is being crippled on MacOS as of MacOS 8.
>
>Here's a [partial] list of what you will NOT see with Rhapsody graphics in
>the near future, as far as I can tell:
>
>3D perspective for shapes, collections of shapes and views.
>
>3D perspective for individual glyphs in a line of text.

Neither of which GX supplies either. GX, while using a full 3x3
transform matrix, which allows a number of funny transforms other than
the affine transforms available with the 3x2 matrix which PostScript
uses, still only does 2D. For 3D, you need at least a 4x3 matrix (or
4x4 -- like the difference between the 2D 3x2 and 3x3 cases).

GX does _2D_. Some of the trapezoid transforms that a 3x2 matrix
allows may look _vaguely_ like 3D, but they're still _2D_.

>
>Transparency modes using Porter-Duff compositing on a PER COLOR CHANNEL
>basis.

I would characterize this as marginally useful, since it

>
>Retained mode interface for both text and graphics without using a kludgey,
>disorganized, pseudo-object-oriented 

The AppKit is not object-oriented ? Wow. All those classes I took on
Object-oriented programming must have fooled me completely.

Also, the NSBezier class, which has been announced, looks suspiciously
similar to what you claim Rhapsody won't have ....

Even further, a retained-mode interface gets really useless when you
are displaying over a network rather than just blitting to a
locally-connected screen. Where shall we put the database ? In the
application ? Then the graphics subsystem has to talk to the display
somehow -- either by blitting large images (which will suck up
bandwidth, be highly sensitive to latency, and generally suck), or by
sending some sort of commands to a display server -- you know, like X
or DPS already do it .. ie, no gain over an immediate-mode interface,
but rather a loss, since retained-mode has to be emulated over
immediate-mode.  
Or should we put the database in the display ? That way, whenever we
want to change something in the database, we have to transmit
whatever changes we make to the database, across the network, making
all database changes susceptible to network bandwidth limitations, and
latency.
Or perhaps we should have a copy of the database in the application,
and one in the display .. ? Thus cutting the apllication some away
from the latency and bandwidth limits in the previous case, but
wasting memory for two identical databases ... and we still have to
keep them synchronized, resulting in lots of fun network traffic.

>class design that doesn't acknowledge
>that a bitmap is a first class graphical shape, but instead implements it
>in an entirely different part of the framework. 

Since when can NSImage not be trated like any other graphical object
in OpenStep ?

>Ditto with text.
>
>No text-oriented hit-testing that makes use of a shape's transform matrix
>automatically. No auto-hit-testing of glyphs during font rendering to make
>sure that Hoefler Italic's more complicated glyphs aren't overlapping with
>the rest of a text-string and allowing for simplified font-substitution
>when such a case occurs.

Um, in case you hadn't noticed, Apple has said that GX' typography
features will be added to DPS. 

>
>Etc.
>
>Etc.
>
>Etc.



>
>Now, on the MacOS side, MacOS 8 loses ALL of GX Printing. That means that
>an application can no longer grab the print job before it is  spooled to
>disk and make further modifications. That means that GX Printing extensions
>can't grab the job AFTER it is spooled to disk and make automatic
>modifications to the display-list-based GX Print job. There are over 100
>messages defined that applications and extensions can override to modify
>the print stream. Since there is a well-defined, *SIMPLE TO EDIT*,
>universally available display-list for GX printing used in all GX Printing,
>one can do just about anything that one desires to that print stream. As
>long as it can be automated using GX graphics/typography calls, it can be
>accomplished.
>
>If GX Extensions can send/receive AppleSCript messages, you can even alter
>the contents of a print job, IN THE PRINT STREAM, from within my HyperCard
>stack (not sure if this last is possible -depends on the AE-ability of GX
>printing extensions -HyperCard can certainly handle it).

well, since GX was never adopted by the grat majority of Mac users /
developers, apparently those features were not in such high demand
.. ?

Furthermore, in publishing, 'WYSIWYG' is usually a Good
Thing(TM). Having the print engine go around rearranging things for
you behind your back is rather unwanted.
Also, if you want certain things to be done to your printjob, there is
a more general way of doing it than inserting 'filters' in the print
queue: namely, performing whatever modifications you want, on the
original document. Because then you can either view it on-screen,
print it, email it .... whatever.

Your example of translating Japanese text to some sort of English in
the print queue is cute, even useful ... but it might just as easily
be done _in the application_, before I send the job to the printer at
all. In fact, that is where it _should_ be done, because then I don't
have to _print_ the document to get the pseudo-translation.

So, putting lots of fun filters in the printing pipeline is arguably
_wrong_, conceptually.

>
>The irony of all this is that OpenStep's dynamic messaging would make all
>of this MUCH easier than the kludgey System 7.x way of doing things. You
>could take GX drivers and make the info available to Rhapsody graphics to
>allow for a much more flexable printing system that what is currently
>possible using GX.
>
>But you need a well-defined display list that stays constant throughout the
>entire print process. You can't do GX-like things automatically using EPS
>and Display PostScript. Presumably they are aware of this and are working
>on it, but given statements from Apple management like "Java does what
>OpenDoc does" and so on, I'm not convinced that they have a clue. Like as
>not, they'll use PDF and call the resultant subset of GX Printing
>capabilities "a miracle of Rhapsody engineering."

From your persistent misinformation, misunderstandings, and outright
_lies_, one is left to wonder if _you_ have a clue.

>
>And regardless of what Rhapsody can do, that doesn't help ANY current MacOS
>user for the next 12-18 months. GX, until MacOS 8, can do things like print
>to  etching machines. Print transparency to pen plotters. Redirect print
>output from one page type to another as needed. Embedd multiple layers of
>transparent water marks in different layers of the graphics/text on the
>page. Apply 3D perspective to designated elements of the page. Print to
>level 1 PostScript printers using Level 2-type features. Apply multiple
>printing extensions in a user-sequenced cascade to a single print job.
>Print to any device resolution up to 20" on -a-side with 1 million DPI.
>
>Etc.
>
>As I said:
>
>>A combination of money and politics [killing GX Printing]. GX Printing is
>far, 
>>FAR more useful
>>than what Rhapsody will provide for the forseeable future. It isn't good
>>for Gil Amelio's career if non-RHapsody printing offers more power than
>>Rhapsody printing.
>
>And so they cripple GX Printing to make Rhapsody look better.

Um, no. They _get rid of_ GX, and use those things in it that are
_useful_ to make Rhapsody indeed _better_.

>
>Sorry Gil, but it ain't going to work. 

ALso, there is this: PostScript is _the_ graphics engine in the DTP
world. GX is not, was not, going to change that (as could be seen from
the number of users using, and developers developing for, GX). 

Now, instead of trying to 'topple' DPS, Apple and Adobe are going to
'merge' the good parts of GX and PostScript, giving us all something
that is _better_ than either was before.

Except, of course, for you -- since onle 'pure' GX is good enough for you.

(hideously long signature deleted)

// Christian Brunschen


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From: Konstantin Wiesel 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: gcc 2.7.2.1 for OS 4.1?
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 12:36:19 +0000
Organization: RHRZ - University of Bonn (Germany)
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I just tried to compile the gcc source that comes with os4.2 on OS 4.1
but without success. Configure detects a Ns 3 machine and it cant compile
the first stage compiler.

Did anybody have more luck?


Regards
Konstantin Wiesel
Email:kwiesel@mailhost.jura.uni-bonn.de


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From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: ftp source code
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Hi
Does anyone know where I could find ftp source code on the Internet?  
Ideally if it was on OPENSTEP but anything would do.
thanks.

--gabriel
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 17 Jun 1997 15:40:02 -0700
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Christian Brunschen  said:

> 
> Um, in case you hadn't noticed, Apple has said that GX' typography
> features will be added to DPS. 



Some of those typographical features use the 3x3 matrix transform. Others
require hit-testing to be done for every glyph drawn on the screen, causing
a round-trip from the AppKit to DPS and back with every glyph drawn unless
you implement hit-testing of glyphs on the AppKit side (or eliminate this
from the port of GX typography).

And if NSImage is a first class graphical object, howcome there's no
display list mechanism ala a GX picture shape?

Or is there, and does it include bitmap images?

BTW, having 3D perspective available for vector shapes and text is
considered a big plus for high-end DTP apps, even though it isn't "real"
3D, or so the reviewers of the latest Adobe apps have indicated.

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From: robertg@trg.saic.com (Robert Gottlieb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: PB.project file format
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Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:53:37 GMT
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Hi all,

I searched the archives to see if this has been asked before and as far
as I can tell it hasn't:

I'm trying to parse a PB.project file (NS 3.3) and I want to put the results 
in a
dictionary.  Ultimately I just need the PROJECTTYPE and PROJECTNAME
attributes.  I know I could get both of those via grep or some other shell
utility, but I really want to try to make this work in ObjC.   I've also 
heard that
NS 4.?  changes it to be a true property list, but I'm not upgrading just 
yet.

Anyway, if anyone knows of a way of reading the PB.project file into an
NSDictionary or some similiar structure, I'd love to hear your ideas.

Thanks,

Robert



--
robertg@trg.saic.com 		NeXTMail preferred, others accepted
"I believe that what I'm feeling Changes how the world appears" - Neil Peart 
(Rush)
"The above comments/opinions are not that of SAIC"


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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 18 Jun 1997 06:45:27 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:

> And if NSImage is a first class graphical object, howcome there's no
> display list mechanism ala a GX picture shape?

Because the two have nothing to do with each other?  Because you
don't need to have a display list mechanism to have 1st class
graphical objects?  

@implementation NSArray(DisplayList)

-(void)draw
{
	[self contentsPerformSelector:@selector(draw) withObject:nil];
}

@end

Now arrays can draw themselves.  Whew, that was hard!  And don't
bother pointing out that this is not a GX picture shape.  It doesn't
need to be, and isn't trying either.

> Or is there, and does it include bitmap images?

You obviously don't understand dynamic OO if you even ask that
question.

Marcel

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From: "Lee Byeong-ho" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Q: Creating a Compiled Application in WO
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:24:37 -0000
Organization: Hansol Telecom
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Hi all my friends,

I searched the WO Enterprise samples created with Objective-C (or C, C++,
Perl) compiled code.

I saw 'Register Now' samples. But it didn't help me not so much ,so If you
have any concerned samples or code, Please send me some tips, I'd love to
hear your ideas.

Thanks.

----------------------
Lee, Byeong-ho.
Yuhan C&T Korea, R&D
mail: bhlee@cnt.co.kr
----------------------


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From: droege@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Detlev Droege)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: ftp source code
Date: 18 Jun 1997 11:32:55 GMT
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In article  gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel  
Musatescu) writes:
> Hi
> Does anyone know where I could find ftp source code on the Internet?  
> Ideally if it was on OPENSTEP but anything would do.
> thanks.

Binaries come with every NS/OS system:
	/usr/ucb/ftp

If you really need some source, try e.g. the GNU Internet Utilities
	inetutils-1.3a.tar.gz
from your nearest GNU archive

	Detlev
--
Detlev Droege, Uni Koblenz, FB Informatik, Rheinau 1, D-56075 Koblenz, Germany
Tel:+49 261 9119-421,Fax:-497,NeXT/MIME/Emil: droege@informatik.uni-koblenz.de

  C++ is the only current language making COBOL look good. --Bertrand Meyer
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From: Timothy J Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: ftp source code
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:13:51 -0400
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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To: Gabriel Musatescu 
In-Reply-To: 
X-FTP: ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/
X-URL: http://www.next.peak.org/~luomat

On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Gabriel Musatescu wrote:

> Does anyone know where I could find ftp source code on the Internet?  
> Ideally if it was on OPENSTEP but anything would do.
> thanks.

I just uploaded the newest beta release (with most up to date security
patches) of wu-ftp to

ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/apps/internet/ftp/wu-ftpd.2.4.2-beta-13.NIHS.bs
.tar.gz

ftp://ftp.next.peak.org/pub/next/apps/internet/ftp/wu-ftpd.2.4.2-beta-13.README

That is source code and compiled (under NS 3.3) binaries.  This is
probably the most up to date ftp stuff you are going to find.  Here's a
new wu-ftp link I just found also:

http://www.landfield.com/wu-ftpd/

That has the wu-ftp FAQ etc.....

TjL

ps -- I've made cursory efforts of actually getting this working (ie
config files, etc) but have not yet succeeded.  If you do, please drop me
a note ;-)


-- 
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NeXT bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html
"Everything is easy when you know what you are doing."
	- Dr Robert Cupper, Department of CS, Allegheny College


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From: d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 18 Jun 1997 13:41:30 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>Christian Brunschen  said:
>
>> 
>> Um, in case you hadn't noticed, Apple has said that GX' typography
>> features will be added to DPS. 
>
>
>
>Some of those typographical features use the 3x3 matrix transform. 

Which _typography_ features require non-affine tranforms ? I am not
talking about the ability to apply arbitrary 3x3 transform matrices to
everythin, including text -- that has nothing to do with
_typography_.

>Others
>require hit-testing to be done for every glyph drawn on the screen, causing
>a round-trip from the AppKit to DPS and back with every glyph drawn unless
>you implement hit-testing of glyphs on the AppKit side (or eliminate this
>from the port of GX typography).

Firstly, since the AppKit is the OO API that shields programmers from
bare-bones PostScript programming, I would suggest that this is indeed
a rather good place to put the typography functionality.

Secondly, even if it is implemented on the server side, hit-testing
would not have to include a round-trip for every glyph drawn, since
hit-tests for multiple shapes could be easily coalesced, thus
generating a round-trip for every hit-testing done, not one for every
glyph. 

Thirdly, you seem to be determined to think that, since Apple decided
not to go with Pure GX, they must have lost their brains completely. I
am quite confident that 

>
>And if NSImage is a first class graphical object, howcome there's no
>display list mechanism ala a GX picture shape?

Um, because DPS isn't a retained-mode graphics engine ... ? 

>Or is there, and does it include bitmap images?

Bitmap images can be told to draw themselves to a PostScript view with
one (1) Objective-C method call. This will typically be done inside
the view's '- drawSelf:' method, which is called when the view needs
updating. So far, programmers under NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP have managed
to keep track of whatever objects, or PostScript calls, they need to
for this to happen, without the help of a Display List ala GX.

Immediate-mode graphics work _very well_, and in a networked context
they avoid a _number_ of problems that retained-mode graphics systems
have when the machine which composes the image, and the machine that
blits the pixels to the screen, are not the same.

Giving explicits commands that are executed one-at-a-time is always
going to be simpler, and more efficient, to implement _correctly_ than
any solution where a database has to be transported, or two databases
have to be synchronized, over a network.


Besides, if you want to have an explicit display list API, noone is
going to stop you from writing a 'DisplayListView' which holds a
display list, and in its 'drawSelf' method draws each item in the
display list to the screen. You could then make all _your_ views
subclasses of DisplayListView, and you'd never have to touch a
PostScript operator again. Remeber, Rhapsody is going to include
classes for Bezier paths, Graphics contexts, etc. No need for you to
touch those disgusting PostScript operators.

>
>BTW, having 3D perspective available for vector shapes and text

2D is 2D, 3D is 3D. GX offers 2D. Saying '3D perspective' is spreading
a _falsehood_.

>is
>considered a big plus for high-end DTP apps, even though it isn't "real"
>3D, or so the reviewers of the latest Adobe apps have indicated.

Perhaps you would care to include some pointers to these reviews so
that we might read them for ourselves, rather than hearing your
interpretation ?

(same hideously long advertising .sig snipped)


Best regards

// Christian Brunschen

/* Disclaimer: Everything I write is my own opinion, which is based on my
interpretation of those facts to which I have access. Errors may obviously
creep in, but I do try to avoid them; however, feel free to correct me. */



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From: Timothy J Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: ftp source code
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:43:29 -0400
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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To: Gabriel Musatescu 
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X-URL: http://www.next.peak.org/~luomat

On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Gabriel Musatescu wrote:

> Does anyone know where I could find ftp source code on the Internet?  

Oh!  Did you mean 'ftp' or 'ftpd' ?  If you meant source code for ftp-ing
OUT from your machine, you want ftp.  If you meant for ftp-ing INTO your
machine, then you want wu-ftp.

Source code could be found for ftp in the GNU stuff as someone else
already suggested, or you could try ncftp at ftp.probe.net which is a much
nicer commandline ftp program...

TjL

-- 
TjL    / http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/
NeXT bookmarks: http://www.peak.org/~luomat/next/bookmarks.html
"Everything is easy when you know what you are doing."
	- Dr Robert Cupper, Department of CS, Allegheny College


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From: kevinc@netcom.com (kevinc)
Subject: GNU binutils-2.8.1
Message-ID: 
Organization: Netcom On-Line Services
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:01:38 GMT
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Hi guys,

Has anyone compiled 2.8.1 for NextStep 3.3? configure complains
thjat Intel 3.3 is not supported by BFD.

Any assistance will be most appreciated.

Rgds,
Kevin
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From: shess@one.net (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Strangeness...
Date: 18 Jun 1997 14:13:51 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References:  
	<5n2r2b$l6@saturn.genoa.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: doubleu.com
In-reply-to: Alex Blakemore's message of 4 Jun 1997 04:31:07 GMT

In article <5n2r2b$l6@saturn.genoa.com> Alex Blakemore  writes:
   In  Gabriel Musatescu wrote:
   > Don't expect an unallocated object to be nil.  

   true enough when speaking of _automatic_ variables,
   (those defined local to a method or block)

   but just to be pedantic, it is safe to assume that instance variables
   are initialized to nil - that is defined by the language.
   so code in the "init" method that sets ivars to zero or nil is redundant,
   unless of course you expect init to be sent more than once to the same object.

On the other hand, explicitely setting instance variables to nil is a
form of implicit documentation,

--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 18 Jun 1997 07:26:01 -0700
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Christian Brunschen  said:

> Also, the NSBezier class, which has been announced, looks suspiciously
> similar to what you claim Rhapsody won't have ....
> 

Are you so familiar with GX's capabilities, as described in about 1500
pages of manuals that you can make that claim?

With GX, I can do a "GXSImplifyShape(myBitmapShape)", and if myBitmapShape
is only one color, it will turn it into a GXRectangleShape. Will NSImage
and NSBezier support such a thing?

With GX, I can turn off dithering/halftoning on a per-shape basis. How's
NSImage and NSBezier do for that level of coordination?

There is a LOT of stuff you can do with GX. A NeXT developer told me that
GX is "over-engineered" but a NeXTStep hobbyist programmer who was hoping
to use GX in Rhapsody snorted at that and commented that it was "powerful,
not 'over-engineered.'"




> Even further, a retained-mode interface gets really useless when you
> are displaying over a network rather than just blitting to a
> locally-connected screen. 

Who says?

Where shall we put the database ?

Where it has always been: in the GX Graphics Heap.

 In the
> application ?

No. Where it has always been: in the GX Graphics Heap.

 Then the graphics subsystem has to talk to the display
> somehow -- either by blitting large images (which will suck up
> bandwidth, be highly sensitive to latency, and generally suck), or by
> sending some sort of commands to a display server -- you know, like X
> or DPS already do it .. ie, no gain over an immediate-mode interface,
> but rather a loss, since retained-mode has to be emulated over
> immediate-mode.  

Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.


> Or should we put the database in the display ? 

Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.

That way, whenever we
> want to change something in the database, we have to transmit
> whatever changes we make to the database, across the network, making
> all database changes susceptible to network bandwidth limitations, and
> latency.

Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.

> Or perhaps we should have a copy of the database in the application,
> and one in the display .. ? Thus cutting the apllication some away
> from the latency and bandwidth limits in the previous case, but
> wasting memory for two identical databases ... and we still have to
> keep them synchronized, resulting in lots of fun network traffic.
> 

Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.


If you want to draw into an application's window over a network by using
GX, you need to do a few things:

1) Establish some kind of communications channel over the network to send
function calls to the copy of GX that exists on that MacOS machine.
2) procure the appropriate GX Graphics Heap reference from an existing
application.
3) procure the appropriate GX viewport
4) set the remote GX heap to the appropriate heap
5) make the calls via the communications channel to the copy of the GX
library on the other machine, with reference to the window's viewport
object, when needed (which might be only once -to set the default viewport,
if it isn't already set).




The communications channel would be AppleSCript  for convenience' sake.

Any app that wanted to allow remote drawing would simply respond to the
query for the appropriate graphics heap, windows viewport, etc.

The reason why I say that you don't know squat about GX is that GX
*ALREADY* maintains the database in its own private segment of memory that
no application has access to (leaving aside MacOS's non-protected memory
space, of course).

Any modifications made to the retained-mode shapes would be made in the
private memory space created by GX on the remote machine.

In fact, it is funny that you should mention this remote drawing issue.
ONce I get the GXFCN debugged and shipping, my NeXT project is to create a
GX OSA that uses FaceSpan for the windows. Developers can actually create
faceless apps that draw via FaceSpan, or they can create quick and dirty, 
drawing scripts, or pictures, or whatevers from within any app that can
attach an AppleScript and print them out using GX Printing (or whatever
kludge Apple comes up with). 

Since AppleScript is already networkable, this would make my OSA a
network-server for GX.

[thanks for the idea, Eric King!]

Of course, since AppleScript is slow, this solution would be slow, but
obviously the same principle could be used for a speedier communications
channel...

... like the one used in Rhapsody, maybe?

And of course, one could always replace DPS's forth-like language with Java
and use Java to call GX or Taligent graphics...

[thanks to my brother for this idea!!!]

Hey! What an idea: make Rhapsody the premier internet graphics system by
making its main graphics engine the same 2D graphics engine that will be
used in Java applets starting in Java 2.0...

Call it Apple Internet Graphics, or some such...


BTW, I don't know how Taligent handles allowing other graphics systems to
draw directly to the screen, but GX allows one to specify a clip shape for
a view device, which means that an app that wanted to draw directly to the
screen could reserve a section of the screen for its own use by supplying a
clip-shape, and not even window-frames drawn using GX would obscure it. 
Huh! Sounds like Interceptor, but better since it would never interfere
with anything GX does and could still track the cursor and so on...

But you can do all of this using Rhapsody graphics based on DPS, despite
the kludgeyness of it all, so therefore DPS + AppKit is "just as good" as
GX...

Yeparoonies, them folks at Apple shore know what they're doing with this GX
vs DPS vs Taligent vs whatever issue...


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 18 Jun 1997 08:10:01 -0700
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> In article ,
> Lawson English  wrote:
> >Christian Brunschen  said:
> >
> >> 
> >> Um, in case you hadn't noticed, Apple has said that GX' typography
> >> features will be added to DPS. 
> >
> >
> >
> >Some of those typographical features use the 3x3 matrix transform. 
> 
> Which _typography_ features require non-affine tranforms ? I am not
> talking about the ability to apply arbitrary 3x3 transform matrices to
> everythin, including text -- that has nothing to do with
> _typography_.
> 

The ability to apply a 3x3 transform matrix to each glyph in a text shape
in layers called a "textface."


> >Others
> >require hit-testing to be done for every glyph drawn on the screen,
> causing
> >a round-trip from the AppKit to DPS and back with every glyph drawn
> unless
> >you implement hit-testing of glyphs on the AppKit side (or eliminate
this
> >from the port of GX typography).
> 
> Firstly, since the AppKit is the OO API that shields programmers from
> bare-bones PostScript programming, I would suggest that this is indeed
> a rather good place to put the typography functionality.
> 
> Secondly, even if it is implemented on the server side, hit-testing
> would not have to include a round-trip for every glyph drawn, since
> hit-tests for multiple shapes could be easily coalesced, thus
> generating a round-trip for every hit-testing done, not one for every
> glyph. 
> 

OK, so how do you do this with text? Every adjacent character might be
overlapping, so how do you manage to reduce the number of round trips?


> Thirdly, you seem to be determined to think that, since Apple decided
> not to go with Pure GX, they must have lost their brains completely. I
> am quite confident that 
> 

You keep on trailing off...

And yes, given remarks that Hancock and AMelio have made (e.g. Java can
replace OpenDoc's functionality, we don't need no stinkin' TV ads -they
cost too much, etc), I generally agree with your characterization about
Apple management having lost their brains.

Or do you think that their performance in overseeing the fall of Apple has
been an example of *competence*?

> >
> >And if NSImage is a first class graphical object, howcome there's no
> >display list mechanism ala a GX picture shape?
> 
> Um, because DPS isn't a retained-mode graphics engine ... ? 
> 
> >Or is there, and does it include bitmap images?
> 
> Bitmap images can be told to draw themselves to a PostScript view with
> one (1) Objective-C method call. This will typically be done inside
> the view's '- drawSelf:' method, which is called when the view needs
> updating. So far, programmers under NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP have managed
> to keep track of whatever objects, or PostScript calls, they need to
> for this to happen, without the help of a Display List ala GX.
> 
> Immediate-mode graphics work _very well_, and in a networked context
> they avoid a _number_ of problems that retained-mode graphics systems
> have when the machine which composes the image, and the machine that
> blits the pixels to the screen, are not the same.
> 

Who said that this was necessary?


> Giving explicits commands that are executed one-at-a-time is always
> going to be simpler, and more efficient, to implement _correctly_ than
> any solution where a database has to be transported, or two databases
> have to be synchronized, over a network.
> 

Who said that this was necessary?

> 
> Besides, if you want to have an explicit display list API, noone is
> going to stop you from writing a 'DisplayListView' which holds a
> display list, and in its 'drawSelf' method draws each item in the
> display list to the screen. You could then make all _your_ views
> subclasses of DisplayListView, and you'd never have to touch a
> PostScript operator again. Remeber, Rhapsody is going to include
> classes for Bezier paths, Graphics contexts, etc. No need for you to
> touch those disgusting PostScript operators.
> 

But for some of the more interesting features of GX Printing to be
workable, you need to have some kind of display-list mechanism that is
universally defined.

> >
> >BTW, having 3D perspective available for vector shapes and text
> 
> 2D is 2D, 3D is 3D. GX offers 2D. Saying '3D perspective' is spreading
> a _falsehood_.
> 

Calling me a liar? Please explain why Loren Petrich's analysis of GX's 3D
perspective mapping is invalid. GX implements a 3x3 matrix that allows one
to apply a 3D perspective to 2D textures such as vector graphics, bitmaps
and text.


> >is
> >considered a big plus for high-end DTP apps, even though it isn't "real"
> >3D, or so the reviewers of the latest Adobe apps have indicated.
> 
> Perhaps you would care to include some pointers to these reviews so
> that we might read them for ourselves, rather than hearing your
> interpretation ?

Every high-end DTP person that *I* know wants 3D perspective capabilties.

In fact, Level 3 PostScript supports "3D effects," so obviously Adobe felt
that this was important to support. BTW, is it a _falsehood_ for Adobe to
call 3D perspective "3D effects?"

> 
> (same hideously long advertising .sig snipped)
> 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: Tim Pugh 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: 18 Jun 1997 17:12:25 GMT
Organization: Oregon State University
Lines: 53
Message-ID: <5o94tp$atk@news.orst.edu>
References: <5npof5$jlf@tribune.usask.ca>
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Cc: eric@skatter.USask.Ca

In <5npof5$jlf@tribune.usask.ca> eric@skatter.USask.Ca wrote:
> Would someone out there running OPENSTEP 4.2 try my famous printf test 
program? 
> 
> For those of you coming in late, this program tests for a bug that has been 
> present since NeXTstep version 1.0 and which I first reported in December, 
1989.
> 
> I even have the NeXT bug tracking  reference numbers [60697, 98369] and an 
e-mail 
> message from NeXT (September 1994)  indicating that, ``it looks like it 
will 
> finally be fixed in NEXTSTEP release 4.0.''
> 
> ================================================================
> #include 
> 
> int main (int argc, char **argv)
> {
>         printf ("Expect 0.00123: %.3g\n", 0.001234567);
>         printf ("Expect 123: %.3g\n", 123.4567);
>         printf ("Expect 123.5: %.4g\n", 123.4567);
>         printf ("Expect 1e+03: %.3g\n", 999.6);
>         return 0;
> }
> =================================================================
> 

rarebear> a.out
Expect 0.00123: 0.001
Expect 123: 123.457
Expect 123.5: 123.4567
Expect 1e+03: 999.6


rarebear> hostinfo
Mach kernel version:
         NeXT Mach 4.2: Wed Apr 16 13:44:57 PDT 1997; 
root(rcbuilder):Objects/mk-183.34.obj~2/RELEASE_I386

Kernel configured for a single processor only.
1 processor is physically available.
Processor type: I386 (Intel 486)
Processor active: 0
Primary memory available: 64.00 megabytes.
Default processor set: 64 tasks, 150 threads, 1 processors
Load average: 0.34, Mach factor: 0.76


The answer is NO.  I guess we'll have to wait until Rhapsody and BSD4.4 .

	- Tim -

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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 18 Jun 1997 16:24:26 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 41
Distribution: world
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References: 
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NNTP-Posting-Host: marcel.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de

In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:
> > Which _typography_ features require non-affine tranforms ? I am not
> > talking about the ability to apply arbitrary 3x3 transform matrices to
> > everythin, including text -- that has nothing to do with
> > _typography_.
> 
> The ability to apply a 3x3 transform matrix to each glyph in a text shape
> in layers called a "textface."

The question was not:  what can GX do to typgraphy, but which typgraphic
features require 3x3 transforms?  Typography != GX feature-list.

> OK, so how do you do this with text? Every adjacent character might be
> overlapping, so how do you manage to reduce the number of round trips?

How many characters can actually surround one point on the screen?
 
> Or do you think that their performance in overseeing the fall of Apple  
has
> been an example of *competence*?

They are cleaning up the mess that was created before they were on 
board.  (Lawson probably also shoots messengers for bad news...)
 
> > >BTW, having 3D perspective available for vector shapes and text
> > 
> > 2D is 2D, 3D is 3D. GX offers 2D. Saying '3D perspective' is spreading
> > a _falsehood_.
> > 
> 
> Calling me a liar? Please explain why Loren Petrich's analysis of GX's 3D
> perspective mapping is invalid.

Because 2D effects that look a little 3D-ish are not 3D.  And if we're
going to argue from authority, instead of simple logic, I'd rather put
my lot in with what every computer-graphics textbook says on the subject,
instead of with what Loren Petrich says.

Marcel

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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 18 Jun 1997 17:05:34 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 32
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In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:

> > Even further, a retained-mode interface gets really useless when you
> > are displaying over a network rather than just blitting to a
> > locally-connected screen. 
> 
> Who says?

Foley van Dam, Computer Graphics, 2nd Edition.  
 
> Where shall we put the database ?
> 
> Where it has always been: in the GX Graphics Heap.

That isn't answering the question.  Where is the GX graphics heap?

> The reason why I say that you don't know squat about GX is that GX
> *ALREADY* maintains the database in its own private segment of memory  
that
> no application has access to (leaving aside MacOS's non-protected memory
> space, of course).

So they chose one of the options Christian described, and thus have
the problems that Christian described (inefficient access to shape-DB,
which is inacceptable for most programs, or duplication, which is 
also problematic).

So much ignorance in one package...

Marcel

 to do with anything?  Adobe is a software  
vendor.  They do not determine what features are or are not in the core  
operating system and frameworks.  Features such as font support and font  
architectures are determined by Apple, to meed the needs of the developer  
and end user community.

NeXT had a long relationship with Adobe.  At no time did Adobe try to block  
the use or development of other technologies, or prevent NeXT from  
integrating these technologies into their system.  I would expect this to  
continue with Apple.

> Since Japanese fonts can take up to 6 MB, whereas FOntWork's custom
> Japanese fonts only take up 1.6 MB, this means that Rhapsody will require
> nearly 4x the space for Japanese fonts that GX would since FontWorks has  
a
> custom GX rendering engine for displaying these fonts.

I sure hope they did this as an OFA plug-in...

> When you add to the equation the fact that GX allows one to parse the
> actual characters used in a print job and download to a printer ONLY  
those
> characters that are actually used on a page whereas Rhapsody apparently
> won't support  GX-like functionality in this area [munch]

You don't know what you are talking about.

Really.

[munch]

> Face it, Joe, as Tom Bayly said on Carpe.Diem: there's no doubt which is  
a
> better graphics system.
> 
> And it is NOT Display PostScript.

Duh.  Display PostScript is just one small part (the 2D vector graphics  
bit) of the Rhapsody Graphics Architecture.  There's a heck of a lot more  
there than you seem to realize, covering fonts, typography, raster  
graphics, and imaging, along with a whole slew of new technologies.

[munch]
> BTW, Joe, GX Typography includes the ability to assign a custom layer to  
a
> type font that may include a 3D perspective. Since Display PostSCript
> doesn't support 3D perspectives, how is it possible for RHapsody Graphics
> to implement ALL of GX Typography?

Alas, what GX supports is just a 3x3 transform matrix, permitting some  
obscure distortion effects in addition to the usual affine transforms.   
Even the fluffy marketing papers never referred to this as anything more  
than "2 1/2 D" graphics.  Unfortunately, some people are easily confused by  
all these threes...

True 3D requires a minimum of a 4x3 transform operation, and a means of  
specifying three coordinate dimensions.

[munch]
> Blind loyalty is, well, blind...

..and ignorance is strength, eh?
-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque@wco.com)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: jrudd@cygnus.com (John Rudd)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Loading Elements into NSPopUpButton
Date: 18 Jun 1997 17:44:34 GMT
Organization: Cygnus Solutions
Lines: 72
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Ok, so I've been a Nextstep User and Admin for close to 6  years now, and I 
even bought several of the books (I even have a copy of the NeXT Bible, and 2 
copies of the Garfinkle Step One book, and the entire black & gold NeXT 
reference set (and even a few copies of the white & black cover versions of 
those books) for NS 3.x) to learn how to do NS programming, but I haven't 
actaully gotten around to it until now.

So, the other day I threw together a quick and dirty calculator -- it had 3 
text fields and 5 buttons.  I used my own "MyCalcObj" (which became 
MyCalc2Obj in one iteration of the design) to control things -- 2 of the text 
fields would send operands to it, and then it would send an answer to the 
third when you pushed one of the buttons (which had integer math operators + 
- * / % ).  That worked fine.  I even have it set up so that the answer says 
"Error" if you try to devide/modulo by zero.  I didn't line up the GUI 
elements too well, or anything -- but this is just my practice at the 
programming side of things.

I decided to redo it using a NSPopUpButton for the operator selection.  
Everything works EXCEPT the contents of the pop up button are wrong (ie. 
"Item 1" does add, but there's only 3 items, not 5)  I double-clicked on the 
button in Interface builder, and it reveals all of the button elements, but 
if I entered "-" for a button title it disappeared -- but when I went to run 
the finished app, all of those "-" buttons were there, but in a weird order 
compared to the other buttons.  And not all of the correct button titles show 
up -- just the initial +, several -'s, and one /.  The first 5 buttons 
perform as expected, but it just doesn't look the way its supposed to.

So I tried to fix it programatically -- when MyCalc2Obj init's, I tried to 
have it send messages to its Operation outlet, which is the NSPopUpButton.  
That didn't do anything.  I tried making the NSPopUpButton be a subclass and 
I modified its init to do those same messages (only to self this time).  
Still no dice.  So then I had the NSPopUpButton target a method in 
MyCalcObject, and if it doesn't have the right number of elements, it tells 
the popup button to remove all of its items, and then inserts the correct 
list of elements.  This one lets me pop up the list once (with all of the 
wrong elements), and then the pop up becomes either a) empty or b) 
unresponsive -- I can't tell which because when I click on it nothing shows 
other than the lead item, so I can't tell if it is in fact responding, or 
just empty.  But it still works (ie. when I change the values in the two 
operands, the answer still comes out right).  

I assume that the reason the init's didn't work has to do with a) the order 
in which things are extracted from the .nib file (when MyCalcObject extracts 
itself, and I try to use init to send messages to Operation, Operation is 
later overwritten   when it gets pulled out of the .nib file), or that init 
isn't invoked because objects extracted from the .nib file aren't being 
created, they're being unarchived.  But that doesn't explain the strange 
behavior of the last case.

You can look at the entire project at:

http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd/MyCalc3

I haven't done any commenting, but there is very little code, too.  If it's 
hard to read, let me know and I'll pretty it up.  I'm using Openstep 4.1/Mach 
on a Sparcstation 4/110MHz (technically not supported, but the only problem 
I've encountered so far is sound -- this model doesn't come with a built in 
sound card).



So, what is the right way to specify the fields of the NSPopUpButton?  Either 
staticly through IB or programatically is fine (though the static/IB 
mechanism is really more appriate to this program).

--
John "kzin" Rudd        jrudd@cygnus.com    http://www.cygnus.com/~jrudd
=========Intel: Putting the backward in backward compatible.============
Thought for the day: According to the supreme court, proof of innocence 
   isn't enough to avoid execution if you've exhausted your appeals.

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From: mpaque@yummyspam.wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 18 Jun 1997 12:12:00 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Lines: 41
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Distribution: world
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In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:
> Some of those typographical features use the 3x3 matrix transform. Others
> require hit-testing to be done for every glyph drawn on the screen,  
causing
> a round-trip from the AppKit to DPS and back with every glyph drawn 

No.

> And if NSImage is a first class graphical object, howcome there's no
> display list mechanism ala a GX picture shape?

OPENSTEP doesn't use a display list architecture.  This is generally  
considered a feature.

> Or is there, and does it include bitmap images?

The OPENSTEP API provides a rich set of classes supporting both vector and  
raster based images.  The NSImage superclass supports a number of built-in  
image representations, including in OPENSTEP 4.2 support for EPS files,  
TIFF images (including a variety of TIFF compression formats), and raw  
bitmaps.  Applications ma register additional representations with the  
system.

> BTW, having 3D perspective available for vector shapes and text is
> considered a big plus for high-end DTP apps, even though it isn't "real"
> 3D, or so the reviewers of the latest Adobe apps have indicated.

Yes.  In the past, NeXT shipped a full 3D Kit and both Interactive and  
Photorealistic Renderman from PIXAR.  I expect that the excellent 3D  
technologies developed within Apple will be integrated into Rhapsody by the  
Unified release, so developers can continue to take advantage of 3D.
-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque AT wco.com ; Yank that yummyspam to reply.)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
####################################################################
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Computer Users of the World, Share Your Dreams for Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1997 19:45:50 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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Dear (potential) members of the Rhapsody Community,

Hi, my name is Ernie Prabhakar, and on Monday June 9th I will become
the Product Marketing Manager for Rhapsody, Apple's NeXT Generation
Operating System.   I am only filling in for two months while the
"real" Product Manager is on sabbatical, after which I intend to
resume my normal life of management consultant by day, computer
groupie by night.  However, before I disappear behind the Silicon
Curtain, before I am an Official Apple Employee, I just wanted to
share with you my vision of the world I would like to help create.
Or rather, a world that I would like you to help create.

I am not a professional programmer or computer scientist.  I am
just a guy who believes computers can be a powerful tool which
people can use to change the world.   And I want to do what I can
to help computers reach their potential, primarily by helping
computer -users- reach their potential.   Computers are amazing
devices in their ability to perform a wide variety of tasks, but
all too often this comes at the expense of failing to perform a
single task very well - the task that you want it to do!

There are many reasons for this mismatch between technology and
user needs, but let me focus on one key area where I hope that I -
and you - can make a difference.  Software development has traditionally
been such an expensive, arduous and time consuming process that

  a) developers had to be experts on technology, not on human
     problems
  b) products were designed to satisfy static requirements, not
     dynamic communities
  c)  the development process largely excluded user involvement

Rhapsody, as the only mass-market operating system designed from
the ground-up to support object-oriented software development, has
the potential to break these compromises and change the rules of
software development.  If it succeeds, it should provide incredible
power and ease of use to end users, developers, and system
administrators.

I believe Apple has assembled one of the greatest teams of engineers,
scientists, and design specialists ever seen in the software
industry.   I believe they have the tools, support, and vision to
pull it off.   However, they lack one thing, the one thing that
makes the crucial difference between a product that revolutionizes
the world and one that merely looks impressive.  It is the one
thing I most want to give to Apple:  You.

You, the guy who fights with his mail application, or labors over
updating web pages, or dreams of writing a "killer app" that crushes
the Big Guys, or merely wants to transform her little corner of
the world.   I want Rhapsody, along with the tools, programs, and
community it engenders, to be the vehicle for making your dreams
come true. Not just a dream of how a computer should work, but
dreams of community, freedom, learning, love - the stuff people
live and die for all over the world.

Apple has always been about helping people realize their dreams,
and it has made many dreams come true.  But in all honesty, Apple
was hampered both by its technology, and its culture.   Like most
great insitutions, it lost sight of its original focus - you, the
ultimate consumer - and got caught up in esoteric dreams of greatness.

That's changed.  Apple has been humbled, and it is reaching out.
The acquisition of NeXT, and Apple's commitment to Java and open
systems are the signs of a sea change.   In a tiny way, bringing
in an outsider like myself to work alongside marketing is also a
sign of that change.

I am no Silicon Valley insider, or hot shot programmer.  I'm just
like you.   I use a computer to balance my checkbook, write love
letters, and send email.   I've written games for my friends,
technical analyses as a student, and mission critical custom apps
for a multinational corporation.   I've lugged notebooks across
the world to share presentations and datafiles with clients, and
I've setup PPP and Ethernet networks in my home.

And all along, I've often thought:  there has to be a better way.

If I could, I'd love to sit down with each and every one of you,
to hear your dreams for your life and the world, and figure out
what small part a computer might play in helping you realize them.
But I can't.   Even if I had the time, my loyalty is to Apple, to
be part of their Voice.  I can't be your voice.

But, what I can do, what I hope to do, is help you find your voice.
To bring people together, where they can fight through the tradeoffs
and priorities that are an inevitable part of any democratic
community.   And then, to be Apple's Eyes and Ears, to see your
concerns, hear what you're saying, feel your pain.  And then to do
whatever I can within Apple, to make sure your voices are heard.

To do this, I have asked some friends of mine to setup two mail aliases  


For developers, 
	devideas@stepwise.com  by Don Yacktman, of The Object Foundation

For users,
	userideas@nula.com by Tim Byars of NeXT Users Los Angeles

These two have committed to sorting through all the mail that is
sent to these lists, and identifying the biggest concerns in those
communities.   Whether it is a matter of technology, communication,
or business.  And I have gauranteed them my time and attention to
understand those concerns, and my passion and energy to communicate
those to the Apple community.

I have to be honest with you.   Product Managers have no real
authority, and as a short-termer and outsider I could very well
have less than usual.   I am also a realist and a capitalist:
Apple has to make money, and soon, and that means shipping a product
as quickly as possible, not catering to everyone's hopes and dreams.
However, I am enough of an idealist to believe that a company like
Apple can only survive if it succeeds in truly understanding its
customers.

More than almost any other American company, Apple isn't about
products, it is about people.  It is about changing the world.  It
did it once with the Apple II, then again with the Macintosh.
WIth your help, I believe it may yet have one more revolution in
it.  I don't know for sure if I can do anything, or even if you can
do anything.   But I know I have to try.

Will you join me?

Sincerely,

Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
Rhapsody Product Manager Designee
####################################################################
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From: adrissmn@gopher.science.wayne.edu (Avi Drissman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Date: 18 Jun 1997 20:35:53 GMT
Organization: Wayne State University
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David Evans (dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
:   Yes.  If you have an app wrapper called "Blah.app" then "Blah.app/Blah" will
: be run.

Does that mean that if I rename an app it stops working?

(Um, that would be bad.)

Avi

--
Avi Drissman                      Preferred address: drissman@acm.org
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
              http://www.science.wayne.edu/~adrissmn/
And we'll have fun, fun, fun till my daddy takes the keyboard away...
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From: Timothy J Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: What needs to be FAT to compile FAT?
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:29:43 -0400
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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All the binaries in /usr/ucb are 3-fat on my 4.1 install!

Why?

Is this an general installation bug or did I select something wrong?

I want to be able to compile things MAB, but don't need MAB binaries
myself.  What can I thin and what can't I?  I'm afraid of will-nilly
'lipo'-ing files that will mean I can't compile MAB, but also don't want
to have 3-fat around when I don't need it.

Please help me reclaim lost diskspace.... 

Thanks!

TjL


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From: sanguish@digifix.com
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Subject: cmsg cancel <5o9dte$1lv$1@news.digifix.com>
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sanguish@digifix.com



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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.mac.programmer,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Computer Users of the World, Share Your Dreams for Rhapsody
Date: 18 Jun 1997 20:46:48 GMT
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Dear (potential) members of the Rhapsody Community,

Hi, my name is Ernie Prabhakar, and on Monday June 9th I will become
the Product Marketing Manager for Rhapsody, Apple's NeXT Generation
Operating System.   I am only filling in for two months while the
"real" Product Manager is on sabbatical, after which I intend to
resume my normal life of management consultant by day, computer
groupie by night.  However, before I disappear behind the Silicon
Curtain, before I am an Official Apple Employee, I just wanted to
share with you my vision of the world I would like to help create.
Or rather, a world that I would like you to help create.

I am not a professional programmer or computer scientist.  I am
just a guy who believes computers can be a powerful tool which
people can use to change the world.   And I want to do what I can
to help computers reach their potential, primarily by helping
computer -users- reach their potential.   Computers are amazing
devices in their ability to perform a wide variety of tasks, but
all too often this comes at the expense of failing to perform a
single task very well - the task that you want it to do!

There are many reasons for this mismatch between technology and
user needs, but let me focus on one key area where I hope that I -
and you - can make a difference.  Software development has traditionally
been such an expensive, arduous and time consuming process that

  a) developers had to be experts on technology, not on human
     problems
  b) products were designed to satisfy static requirements, not
     dynamic communities
  c)  the development process largely excluded user involvement

Rhapsody, as the only mass-market operating system designed from
the ground-up to support object-oriented software development, has
the potential to break these compromises and change the rules of
software development.  If it succeeds, it should provide incredible
power and ease of use to end users, developers, and system
administrators.

I believe Apple has assembled one of the greatest teams of engineers,
scientists, and design specialists ever seen in the software
industry.   I believe they have the tools, support, and vision to
pull it off.   However, they lack one thing, the one thing that
makes the crucial difference between a product that revolutionizes
the world and one that merely looks impressive.  It is the one
thing I most want to give to Apple:  You.

You, the guy who fights with his mail application, or labors over
updating web pages, or dreams of writing a "killer app" that crushes
the Big Guys, or merely wants to transform her little corner of
the world.   I want Rhapsody, along with the tools, programs, and
community it engenders, to be the vehicle for making your dreams
come true. Not just a dream of how a computer should work, but
dreams of community, freedom, learning, love - the stuff people
live and die for all over the world.

Apple has always been about helping people realize their dreams,
and it has made many dreams come true.  But in all honesty, Apple
was hampered both by its technology, and its culture.   Like most
great insitutions, it lost sight of its original focus - you, the
ultimate consumer - and got caught up in esoteric dreams of greatness.

That's changed.  Apple has been humbled, and it is reaching out.
The acquisition of NeXT, and Apple's commitment to Java and open
systems are the signs of a sea change.   In a tiny way, bringing
in an outsider like myself to work alongside marketing is also a
sign of that change.

I am no Silicon Valley insider, or hot shot programmer.  I'm just
like you.   I use a computer to balance my checkbook, write love
letters, and send email.   I've written games for my friends,
technical analyses as a student, and mission critical custom apps
for a multinational corporation.   I've lugged notebooks across
the world to share presentations and datafiles with clients, and
I've setup PPP and Ethernet networks in my home.

And all along, I've often thought:  there has to be a better way.

If I could, I'd love to sit down with each and every one of you,
to hear your dreams for your life and the world, and figure out
what small part a computer might play in helping you realize them.
But I can't.   Even if I had the time, my loyalty is to Apple, to
be part of their Voice.  I can't be your voice.

But, what I can do, what I hope to do, is help you find your voice.
To bring people together, where they can fight through the tradeoffs
and priorities that are an inevitable part of any democratic
community.   And then, to be Apple's Eyes and Ears, to see your
concerns, hear what you're saying, feel your pain.  And then to do
whatever I can within Apple, to make sure your voices are heard.

To do this, I have asked some friends of mine to setup two mail aliases


For developers,
	devideas@stepwise.com  by Don Yacktman, of The Object Foundation

For users,
	userideas@nula.org by Tim Byars of NeXT Users Los Angeles

These two have committed to sorting through all the mail that is
sent to these lists, and identifying the biggest concerns in those
communities.   Whether it is a matter of technology, communication,
or business.  And I have gauranteed them my time and attention to
understand those concerns, and my passion and energy to communicate
those to the Apple community.

I have to be honest with you.   Product Managers have no real
authority, and as a short-termer and outsider I could very well
have less than usual.   I am also a realist and a capitalist:
Apple has to make money, and soon, and that means shipping a product
as quickly as possible, not catering to everyone's hopes and dreams.
However, I am enough of an idealist to believe that a company like
Apple can only survive if it succeeds in truly understanding its
customers.

More than almost any other American company, Apple isn't about
products, it is about people.  It is about changing the world.  It
did it once with the Apple II, then again with the Macintosh.
WIth your help, I believe it may yet have one more revolution in
it.  I don't know for sure if I can do anything, or even if you can
do anything.   But I know I have to try.

Will you join me?

Sincerely,

Dr. Ernie Prabhakar
Rhapsody Product Manager Designee
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From: mpaque@yummyspam.wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 18 Jun 1997 14:07:52 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Lines: 27
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In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:
[marcel's explanation of immediate mode graphics deleted]
> 
> Who said that this was necessary?

I did.

> But for some of the more interesting features of GX Printing to be
> workable, you need to have some kind of display-list mechanism that is
> universally defined.


Actually' what's needed is a machine parsable description of the output.  A  
display list is just one approach to this.
 
(Be very careful what you say.  This is a public forum.  The folks posting  
here are not public figures.  Libel and slander laws do apply!)
-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque AT wco.com ; Yank that yummyspam to reply.)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: Fam.Moser@t-online.de (Familie Moser)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: glib++ for NextStep 3.0
Date: 17 Jun 1997 10:50:05 GMT
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Hi everybody,

I am looking for a port of glib++ on NS 3.0.  At had a look at the
sources of glib2.0, but I am afraid that the effort in porting it is too
much for me.  So I was wondering if there is somebody out there who has
a port available.  It need not be the latest version, I am just
interested in hacking a little bit C++.

Any kind of advice or pointer is welcome.  Please mail to either
martin@shiratori.riec.tohoku.ac.jp or fam.moser@t-online.de.

Thanks in advance for your kindness,


Martin
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From: David Young 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: IBFramework Documentation?
Date: 18 Jun 1997 22:13:05 GMT
Organization: Geeks Organizations
Lines: 14
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After install of 4.2PR2 Developer, I've noticed that it looks like
the InterfaceBuilder.framework Resources directory doesn't have any
documentation. Did I miss something, or is this normal?

The reason I ask is that I have a custom subclass of NSBox on a 
palette, and I can't seem to get IB to want to drop other objects
into it.

advTHANKSance
Dave

-- 
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 ::
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 18 Jun 1997 19:28:00 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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On 06/18/97, marcel@system.de wrote:
>In article  "Lawson English"  
> writes:
>
>> > Even further, a retained-mode interface gets really useless when 
you
>> > are displaying over a network rather than just blitting to a
>> > locally-connected screen. 
>> 
>> Who says?
>
>Foley van Dam, Computer Graphics, 2nd Edition.  


	Anyone want to take bets that Lawson hasn't read this bible?

	
-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 


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From: mpaque@yummyspam.wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy
Date: 18 Jun 1997 16:18:39 -0700
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In article <5o9cs0$1ah$1@news.digifix.com> sanguish@digifix.com (Scott  
Anguish) writes:
> On 06/18/97, marcel@system.de wrote:
> >In article  "Lawson English"  
> > writes:
> >> Who says?
> >
> >Foley van Dam, Computer Graphics, 2nd Edition.  
> 
> 
> 	Anyone want to take bets that Lawson hasn't read this bible?

Oh, heck. All bets are off on that one.


If Foley and van Dam really knew what they were doing, they'd have just  
implemented all those examples as GX code, rather than fob off their own  
incomplete examples as a standard for the world to follow.  None of their  
wimpy code can  draw 3D perspective text along arbitrary n-dimensional  
curves in six different transfer modes and three different languages with  
different orientations?

Remember, Lawson has achieved Oneness with all 1500 pages of GX  
documentation.  He is Beyond such trivialities as a computer graphics  
primer.


-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque AT wco.com ; Yank that yummyspam to reply.)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
####################################################################
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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: What needs to be FAT to compile FAT?
Date: 18 Jun 1997 23:46:35 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
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Timothy J Luoma  writes
> 
> All the binaries in /usr/ucb are 3-fat on my 4.1 install!
> 
> Why?
> 
> Is this an general installation bug or did I select something wrong?
> 
> I want to be able to compile things MAB, but don't need MAB binaries
> myself.  What can I thin and what can't I?  I'm afraid of will-nilly
> 'lipo'-ing files that will mean I can't compile MAB, but also don't want
> to have 3-fat around when I don't need it.

I think you maybe did something wrong along the way, though I'm not sure  
what. The installation process should lipo those files automatically.

The only fat files you should need to do fat compiles are the libraries  
and precompiled headers. On my 4.2 system, the only diectories with fat  
files in them are /lib, /usr/lib, NextLibrary/Frameworks, and  
/NextDeveloper/Headers.

--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: goldsmith@apple.com (David Goldsmith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:36:13 -0700
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:
>Some of those typographical features use the 3x3 matrix transform. Others
>require hit-testing to be done for every glyph drawn on the screen, causing
>a round-trip from the AppKit to DPS and back with every glyph drawn unless
>you implement hit-testing of glyphs on the AppKit side (or eliminate this
>from the port of GX typography).

Hit testing is implemented on the AppKit side in OpenStep today, and we're
not planning to change that. The Window/DPS server is only involved once,
to pass the mouse click in to the correct window.

The AppKit is responsible for all glyph layout. DPS is just used as a glyph
rendering engine.

-- 
David Goldsmith
Architect
International, Text, and Graphics Department
Apple Computer, Inc.
goldsmith@apple.com
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From: "Lee Byeong-ho" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Creating a Compiled Application in WO
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 10:06:32 -0000
Organization: Hansol Telecom
Lines: 26
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 Lee Byeong-ho () <5o9fot$345$1@news.hansol.net> 翡 ۼ߽ϴ...
>Hi all my friends,
>
>I searched the WO Enterprise samples created with Objective-C (or C, C++,
>Perl) compiled code.
>
>I saw 'Register Now' samples. But it didn't help me not so much ,so If
you
>have any concerned samples or code, Please send me some tips, I'd love to
>hear your ideas.
>
>Thanks.
>
>----------------------
>Lee, Byeong-ho.
>Yuhan C&T Korea, R&D
>mail: bhlee@cnt.co.kr
>----------------------
>
>
> 

Oh... Is there any help....


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From: jon@clarke.exnext.com (Jonathan Hendry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Date: 19 Jun 1997 02:24:22 GMT
Organization: Internet Access Cincinnati 513-887-8877
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Avi Drissman (adrissmn@gopher.science.wayne.edu) wrote:
: David Evans (dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca) wrote:
: :   Yes.  If you have an app wrapper called "Blah.app" then "Blah.app/Blah" will
: : be run.

: Does that mean that if I rename an app it stops working?

No, just that 'renaming an app' means renaming the appwrapper and the
binary contained withing. If you change Foo.app/Foo to Bar.app/Bar,
it should work.

: (Um, that would be bad.)

Um, why?

--
Jonathan W. Hendry	jon@exnext.com
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From: yuyilkhj@trefseewy.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: All New Service for your "Pager"....
Date: 19 Jun 1997 03:05:35 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 43
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.202.228


ONLY AVAILABLE IN THE: 
U.S.A, CANADA VIRGIN ISLANDS, AND PUERTO RICO


BE SURE TO GO TO OUR SITE AND CHECK OUT OUR FREE TRIAL.


Call everyone and tell them to throw away all of your old home, office, fax, 
pager, voice-mail, and cellular numbers and give them your New "Virtual Office" 
800/888 number! The only number any one will ever need.

Are you tired of giving out all of your different phone numbers to everyone?
Wouldnt it be nice to be able to give everyone just ONE phone number that
will find you anywhere you are? Even out of town, or in a restaurant, or even 
on the golf course.

Now you can.

We have the answer to all your communication needs. Its called the "Virtual Office".

And this new service is loaded. It comes with features like:

An automated Call Attendant, Live Call Connect (in real time), Fax Sending, Fax Receiving, 
Even without a fax machine! E-Mail Notification and Delivery, Without a PC!, 
Outbound calling, Low Cost Long Distance Service, Inbound/Outbound 800/888
Number, Worldwide Call Transfer, Call Forwarding, Call Screening, Full Service Voice
Mail, Nation Wide Pager Notification, Conference Calling, Speed Dialing, Auto Dial,
Auto Messaging, Temporary Greeting, Unavailable Greeting, Password Protection,
Pager Notification, and No Equipment or Software to buy, "Ever".     
      
Priced from $9.95* per month, Plus 10.9 cents per minute per event.

Thats less than one phone line would cost per month.

For more information please visit our web sight:
http://www.mynumber.com

* Based on our best priced plan.      




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From: chris@polaris.scicntr.ortn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs
Subject: IB: Missing Main Menu
Date: 19 Jun 1997 02:59:37 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee
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I've been working on an app; Its a rather large app and of course has a
Main Menu. But the strangest thing is going on:

In the app's main nib, there is the icon for the mainMenu. The weird thing
is that I can't seem to find this actual menu anywhere, i.e I double-click
on the icon, the Inspector switches to Menu Inspector, the name of the
app/menu title appears in the 'Title' text field, but the 'physical' list
of menu cells appears nowhere. 

I compile/run the app and it shows up as the app's main menu, just as you'd
expect; I switch back to IB and it's still gone.

(It's been missing for days, and frankly I'm worried.)

Has anyone seen this before ?


CB
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From: chris@polaris.scicntr.ortn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: IBDid/Will errors
Date: 19 Jun 1997 03:17:37 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee
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I'm trying to get an NS 2.1 palette to work on 3.3, and I run into an
'implicit declaration of function ...' error for two IB functions.
Consequently the palette gets built but doesn't work. The code and errors
are as follows:

(The class being compiled is a subclass of IBInspector. There are only
these two methods in it.)


+ finishLoading:(struct mach_header *)header
{  
   NIBDidLoadClass(self, header);
   return nil;
}

+ startUnloading 
{   
   NIBWillUnloadClass(self);
  return nil;
}



(The errors: ) 

warning: implicit declaration of function `NIBDidLoadClass'
warning: implicit declaration of function `NIBWillUnloadClass'



 I am not familiar with what is going on here, and haven't found any
documentation on these functions.

 Anyone ?


Thanks  --

CB
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From: d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 19 Jun 1997 08:44:50 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>
>
>> In article ,
>> Lawson English  wrote:
>> >Christian Brunschen  said:
>> >
>> >> 
>> >> Um, in case you hadn't noticed, Apple has said that GX' typography
>> >> features will be added to DPS. 
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Some of those typographical features use the 3x3 matrix transform. 
>> 
>> Which _typography_ features require non-affine tranforms ? I am not
>> talking about the ability to apply arbitrary 3x3 transform matrices to
>> everythin, including text -- that has nothing to do with
>> _typography_.
>> 
>
>The ability to apply a 3x3 transform matrix to each glyph in a text shape
>in layers called a "textface."

Which will be _neede_ for what typographic purposes ... ?

>> >Others
>> >require hit-testing to be done for every glyph drawn on the screen,
>> causing
>> >a round-trip from the AppKit to DPS and back with every glyph drawn
>> unless
>> >you implement hit-testing of glyphs on the AppKit side (or eliminate
>this
>> >from the port of GX typography).
>> 
>> Firstly, since the AppKit is the OO API that shields programmers from
>> bare-bones PostScript programming, I would suggest that this is indeed
>> a rather good place to put the typography functionality.
>> 
>> Secondly, even if it is implemented on the server side, hit-testing
>> would not have to include a round-trip for every glyph drawn, since
>> hit-tests for multiple shapes could be easily coalesced, thus
>> generating a round-trip for every hit-testing done, not one for every
>> glyph. 
>> 
>
>OK, so how do you do this with text? Every adjacent character might be
>overlapping, so how do you manage to reduce the number of round
>> trips?

Um, by sending the server a) a bunch of chapes, b) a bunch of
coordinates to test for, and then tell it 'ok, give me, for each pair
of coordinates, the possible hit(s), and which shapes they're in'
... ? Sending data + (possibly lots of) work in the server + receiving
results. One round trip.

>
>
>> Thirdly, you seem to be determined to think that, since Apple decided
>> not to go with Pure GX, they must have lost their brains completely. I
>> am quite confident that 
>> 
>
>You keep on trailing off...
>
>And yes, given remarks that Hancock and AMelio have made (e.g. Java can
>replace OpenDoc's functionality, we don't need no stinkin' TV ads -they
>cost too much, etc), I generally agree with your characterization about
>Apple management having lost their brains.

I on the other hand beleive that

>Or do you think that their performance in overseeing the fall of Apple has
>been an example of *competence*?

'The fall of Apple' ? In case you hadn't noticed, Apple is slowly but
certainly climbing back out of the red and into the black. MacOS,
which had been more or less mothballed due to the promise of Copland,
is now once more being developed -- and in its new version is more
stable than ever. Also, Rhapsody will give Apple an OS that is both
modern, stable, and widely deployed. Yes, _widely_ -- not as widely as
MacOS, or Miscrosoft's various OSes, but widely nonetheless. And

>> >And if NSImage is a first class graphical object, howcome there's no
>> >display list mechanism ala a GX picture shape?
>> 
>> Um, because DPS isn't a retained-mode graphics engine ... ? 
>> 
>> >Or is there, and does it include bitmap images?
>> 
>> Bitmap images can be told to draw themselves to a PostScript view with
>> one (1) Objective-C method call. This will typically be done inside
>> the view's '- drawSelf:' method, which is called when the view needs
>> updating. So far, programmers under NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP have managed
>> to keep track of whatever objects, or PostScript calls, they need to
>> for this to happen, without the help of a Display List ala GX.
>> 
>> Immediate-mode graphics work _very well_, and in a networked context
>> they avoid a _number_ of problems that retained-mode graphics systems
>> have when the machine which composes the image, and the machine that
>> blits the pixels to the screen, are not the same.
>> 
>
>Who said that this was necessary?

Who said what was necessary -- being able to run an application and
its display on different machines ?

Excuse me, but are you completely out of synch with reality ?
Microsoft is working on what they call 'Windows Terminals' --
like an X terminal, only using Windows' graphics and GUI
APIs. Such products as NTrigue, which allows you to run a Windows NT
application on one machine, and use another machine for display,
already provide some of that functionality. 

X has always had it, and that is one of the reasons why some products
have traditionally been available only in Unix environments -- where
you could have a _large_ server in the middle, which could cope with
running the application ... and a bunch of inexpensive X-terminals --
which might simply be now-obsolete workstations which have been
relegated to this simpler, less taxing task -- in front of which the
users would sit and do their work.

DPS, under NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP, has always done this as well,
transparently to both user, application, and display server.

Are you advocating that this functionality be removed ?

>
>
>> Giving explicits commands that are executed one-at-a-time is always
>> going to be simpler, and more efficient, to implement _correctly_ than
>> any solution where a database has to be transported, or two databases
>> have to be synchronized, over a network.
>> 
>
>Who said that this was necessary?

In a retained-mode graphics environment, the application builds a
database of things it wants to be drawn on-screen, and the display
server draws things from that database on-screen. _Iff_ both
application and display server are on the same machine, this can be
done by _sharing_ the database between application and discplay
server. If this is _not_ the case, then we can either store the
database _once_, in the aplplication or in the display server; in
either case, the party which does _not_ have the database will need to
access the database through the network. Or we can keep a copy of the
database in both the application and in the server, in which case we
need to keep both copies synchronized with each other, lest the
display server draw things that are not what the application intended.

>
>> 
>> Besides, if you want to have an explicit display list API, noone is
>> going to stop you from writing a 'DisplayListView' which holds a
>> display list, and in its 'drawSelf' method draws each item in the
>> display list to the screen. You could then make all _your_ views
>> subclasses of DisplayListView, and you'd never have to touch a
>> PostScript operator again. Remeber, Rhapsody is going to include
>> classes for Bezier paths, Graphics contexts, etc. No need for you to
>> touch those disgusting PostScript operators.
>> 
>
>But for some of the more interesting features of GX Printing to be
>workable, you need to have some kind of display-list mechanism that is
>universally defined.

Which more interesting features would that be ?

I have already made what I beleive to be a rather good argument
against placing functionality to modify the printing output on its way
from the application, to the printer, arguing that this functionality
would be better offered in the application itself.

>
>> >
>> >BTW, having 3D perspective available for vector shapes and text
>> 
>> 2D is 2D, 3D is 3D. GX offers 2D. Saying '3D perspective' is spreading
>> a _falsehood_.
>> 
>
>Calling me a liar? Please explain why Loren Petrich's analysis of GX's 3D
>perspective mapping is invalid.

Please give me a pointer to this analysis, then.

>GX implements a 3x3 matrix that allows one
>to apply a 3D perspective to 2D textures such as vector graphics, bitmaps
>and text.

Perhaps you would explain, or even better give an example (ie, images)
of, exactly what you mean by this '3D perspective' ?

>
>
>> >is
>> >considered a big plus for high-end DTP apps, even though it isn't "real"
>> >3D, or so the reviewers of the latest Adobe apps have indicated.
>> 
>> Perhaps you would care to include some pointers to these reviews so
>> that we might read them for ourselves, rather than hearing your
>> interpretation ?
>
>Every high-end DTP person that *I* know wants 3D perspective capabilties.

I asked for pointers, not assertations.

>
>In fact, Level 3 PostScript supports "3D effects," so obviously Adobe felt
>that this was important to support. BTW, is it a _falsehood_ for Adobe to
>call 3D perspective "3D effects?"

You are making the mistake of assuming that Adobe will be using the
same techniques used by GX.

>
>> 
>> (same hideously long advertising .sig snipped)
>> 
>

(quite nice .sig, left in place :)

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of
>
>catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

Best regards,

// Christian Brunschen

####################################################################
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From: d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 19 Jun 1997 09:32:11 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>Christian Brunschen  said:
>
>> Also, the NSBezier class, which has been announced, looks suspiciously
>> similar to what you claim Rhapsody won't have ....
>> 
>
>Are you so familiar with GX's capabilities, as described in about 1500
>pages of manuals that you can make that claim?

Note that I didn't claim that NSBezier would do everything that GX
does. It will, however, provide some of the functionality you have
condemned AppKit for not having.

>
>With GX, I can do a "GXSImplifyShape(myBitmapShape)", and if myBitmapShape
>is only one color, it will turn it into a GXRectangleShape. Will NSImage
>and NSBezier support such a thing?

I don't know. Ask Apple. Lobby them, even. 

>
>With GX, I can turn off dithering/halftoning on a per-shape basis. How's
>NSImage and NSBezier do for that level of coordination?

With DPS, you can change the dithering/halftoning behaviour as you see
fit ... 

>There is a LOT of stuff you can do with GX. A NeXT developer told me that
>GX is "over-engineered" but a NeXTStep hobbyist programmer who was hoping
>to use GX in Rhapsody snorted at that and commented that it was "powerful,
>not 'over-engineered.'"



>> Even further, a retained-mode interface gets really useless when you
>> are displaying over a network rather than just blitting to a
>> locally-connected screen. 
>
>Who says?
>
>Where shall we put the database ?
>
>Where it has always been: in the GX Graphics Heap.

And where, pray tell, is 'the GX Graphics Heap' in a networked
environment where Application and Display are on physically different
machines, connected through a network ?

>
> In the
>> application ?
>
>No. Where it has always been: in the GX Graphics Heap.

And where, pray tell, is 'the GX Graphics Heap' in a networked
environment where Application and Display are on physically different
machines, connected through a network ?

>
> Then the graphics subsystem has to talk to the display
>> somehow -- either by blitting large images (which will suck up
>> bandwidth, be highly sensitive to latency, and generally suck), or by
>> sending some sort of commands to a display server -- you know, like X
>> or DPS already do it .. ie, no gain over an immediate-mode interface,
>> but rather a loss, since retained-mode has to be emulated over
>> immediate-mode.  
>
>Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.

Actually, this is a quite correct statement. But it still doesn't
address my question. My questions are not, as you might think,
rhethorical. If you have a good answer, I am more than willing to
listen. 

>
>> Or should we put the database in the display ? 
>
>Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.

Obviously, you're not interested in a debate, but only in getting your
own way.

>
>That way, whenever we
>> want to change something in the database, we have to transmit
>> whatever changes we make to the database, across the network, making
>> all database changes susceptible to network bandwidth limitations, and
>> latency.
>
>Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.

Well, your not knowing anything about PostScript didn't stop you from
making comments about its performance. 

>
>> Or perhaps we should have a copy of the database in the application,
>> and one in the display .. ? Thus cutting the apllication some away
>> from the latency and bandwidth limits in the previous case, but
>> wasting memory for two identical databases ... and we still have to
>> keep them synchronized, resulting in lots of fun network traffic.
>> 
>
>Obviously, you don't know squat about GX.

I beleive your record is broken.

>
>
>If you want to draw into an application's window over a network by using
>GX, you need to do a few things:
>
>1) Establish some kind of communications channel over the network to send
>function calls to the copy of GX that exists on that MacOS machine.
>2) procure the appropriate GX Graphics Heap reference from an existing
>application.
>3) procure the appropriate GX viewport
>4) set the remote GX heap to the appropriate heap
>5) make the calls via the communications channel to the copy of the GX
>library on the other machine, with reference to the window's viewport
>object, when needed (which might be only once -to set the default viewport,
>if it isn't already set).
>

Basically, you would place the database in the display server,
then. _Say so_ instead of insulting me needlessly.

All my comments apply: The application needs to talk to the database
(as managed by GX), over the network (through the communications
channel) for everything it wanted to do to the database. Thus incuring
the usual penalty for talking over a network. Same way as commands to
the DPS server are sent over the network.

>
>The communications channel would be AppleSCript  for convenience' sake.

Probably there would be an alternate, binary streamed format, much
like the X protocol ... or the DPS stream (but affecting the GX
Shape database, rather than being immediate-mode-drawing
instructions). 


>
>Any app that wanted to allow remote drawing would simply respond to the
>query for the appropriate graphics heap, windows viewport, etc.

Or, even better, we can make _all_ graphics go through a given
communications channel; that way, we need just point that
communications channel at whatever display server we want to draw on,
and everything will work transparently. Like in X, or DPS.

>The reason why I say that you don't know squat about GX is that GX
>*ALREADY* maintains the database in its own private segment of memory that
>no application has access to (leaving aside MacOS's non-protected memory
>space, of course).

Well, that is what I was _asking_. You just, apparently, didn't read
my question.

Which says more about you than it does about me.

>
>Any modifications made to the retained-mode shapes would be made in the
>private memory space created by GX on the remote machine.

This is what I meant by 'accessingn the database', yes.

>
>In fact, it is funny that you should mention this remote drawing issue.
>ONce I get the GXFCN debugged and shipping, my NeXT project is to create a
>GX OSA that uses FaceSpan

What is this ? sounds interesting. Please do elaborate.

>for the windows. Developers can actually create
>faceless apps that draw via FaceSpan, or they can create quick and dirty, 
>drawing scripts, or pictures, or whatevers from within any app that can
>attach an AppleScript and print them out using GX Printing (or whatever
>kludge Apple comes up with). 

Sounds interesting, but without a pointer to some more info this is,
unfortunately, just a bunch of buzzwords tow me.

>
>Since AppleScript is already networkable, this would make my OSA a
>network-server for GX.
>
>[thanks for the idea, Eric King!]
>
>Of course, since AppleScript is slow, this solution would be slow, but
>obviously the same principle could be used for a speedier communications
>channel...
>
>... like the one used in Rhapsody, maybe?
>
>And of course, one could always replace DPS's forth-like language with Java
>and use Java to call GX or Taligent graphics...
>
>[thanks to my brother for this idea!!!]

Or you could write the 'network server' for it so that it accepts
commands via NeXT^H^H^H^HApple's Distributed Objects and/or CORBA, so
that your server could be used from all manners of languages. Yes,
very nice. Go ahead and do it, noone is trying to stop you. 

If you are so _extremely_ attached to GX, why don't you try to scratch
together some cash and _buy_ it from Apple ? You could then add a
whole View Subclass hierarchy to Rhapsody. Remember, there's going to
be a nice and easy way to draw directly to the screen, or to a window,
bypassing DPS -- NSDirectScreen (NeXT's Interceptor
technology). Within this 'GXKit' you could do _whatever_ you wanted --
including on the printing side, as long as what comes out on the end
is PostScript.

However, Apple has to get a product to market, _fast_. DPS is a fast,
well-integrated graphics engine that delivers WYSYWIG from screen to
printer, something that people in the graphics and publishing
businesses appear to find useful. Yes, I know GX can generate fine
PostScript, but if a large part of your input is (encapsulated)
PostScript, and your ourput is PostScript, then having PostScript in
the middle, too, makes an awful lot of sense.

Insisting that Apple dump DPS in favor of GX is not going to change
anything. 

>
>Hey! What an idea: make Rhapsody the premier internet graphics system by
>making its main graphics engine the same 2D graphics engine that will be
>used in Java applets starting in Java 2.0...

To quote again from Sun's press release:

--- snip ---

Mountain View, Calif. - May 27, 1997 - - Sun Microsystems, Inc. today
announced that it has licensed technologies from Taligent, Inc., a
wholly-owned subsidiary of IBM Corporation. These technologies include
bi-directional line layout for internationalization of text and
high-level graphic capabilities for combining and manipulating
geometric shapes. Both will be incorporated into Sun's implementation
of the Javatm 2D API.

--- snip ---

Sun has licensed a few important technologies from Taligent, but that
most certainly does _not_ make the Java(TM) 2D API use Taligent's
graphics engine. Sorry to burst your bubble.

While Sun has also said they will not be using Adobe's Bravo, I
beleive they are more likely to go with a graphics rendering engine of
their own.

>
>Call it Apple Internet Graphics, or some such...
>
>BTW, I don't know how Taligent handles allowing other graphics systems to
>draw directly to the screen, but GX allows one to specify a clip shape for
>a view device, which means that an app that wanted to draw directly to the
>screen could reserve a section of the screen for its own use by supplying a
>clip-shape, and not even window-frames drawn using GX would obscure it. 
>Huh! Sounds like Interceptor, but better since it would never interfere
>with anything GX does and could still track the cursor and so on...

In what way would Interceptor interfere with what DPS does ? How would
it stop the cursor from tracking ? Remember, events are handled in
their own separate way. They are _not_ lumped in with DPS the way you
seem to think they are.

>
>But you can do all of this using Rhapsody graphics based on DPS, despite
>the kludgeyness of it all, so therefore DPS + AppKit is "just as good" as
>GX...

Yes, you _can_, and it's not even a kludge like you try to make it
look.

Furthermore, not all of Rhapsody's graphics will be based on
DPS. Interceptor isn't part of DPS, for instance. Neither is
QuickDraw3D, nor QuickTime.

>
>Yeparoonies, them folks at Apple shore know what they're doing with this GX
>vs DPS vs Taligent vs whatever issue...

Actually, they do. They are using a mature product with wide industry
aceptance, which also happens to be somewhat of a de-facto standard in
the publishing industry (PostScript); rather than choosing one of two
largely unproven graphics systems (GX and Taligent).

(hideously long signature once more snipped)

Best regards 

// Christian Brunschen

####################################################################
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From: martin@wise-02.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Martin Rose)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Date: 19 Jun 1997 12:43:41 GMT
Organization: TU Dresden (URZ)
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Hi NeXTSTEP-Experts,

Does anybody know how to find out whether a directory-entry is a subdirectory 
or a "real" file?? There would be a solution to check if a dot '.' appears in 
the filename, but this criteria would not be enough, because there might be 
filenames without any extension...

Do directory-entries own a certain flag that determines being a directory XOR 
a file?

I'd be glad to hear from you soon & much thanks in advance!

Martin Rose


martin@wise.wiwi.tu-dresden.de
mrose@rcs.urz.tu-dresden.de
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From: michael@rumah.pc.my (Michael Olan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: gcc.2.7.2 & PB
Date: 19 Jun 1997 13:01:21 GMT
Organization: Personal
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I've had gcc.2.7.2 installed in the usual /usr/local for quite awhile. I have 
quite a few template classes I'd like to use in some PB projects, but the 
Next gcc is from the pre-template days. What's the most painless way to make 
this work? Replace the old gcc, muck around with makefiles, or what? If I use 
gcc-2.7.2 in PB it doesn't know where all the Next libraries are. Ok, so I'm 
pretty ignorant about makefiles & all, so maybe I just need to tell it where 
they all are located?

TIA,
Mike
####################################################################
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 19 Jun 1997 09:19:00 -0700
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Christian Brunschen  said:

> >But for some of the more interesting features of GX Printing to be
> >workable, you need to have some kind of display-list mechanism that is
> >universally defined.
> 
> Which more interesting features would that be ?
> 
> I have already made what I beleive to be a rather good argument
> against placing functionality to modify the printing output on its way
> from the application, to the printer, arguing that this functionality
> would be better offered in the application itself.
> 
And I would argue that you are wrong. At least my DTP-ing friends like the
design of GX, where you can pass the output through GX extensions and
modify a print job automatically in ways that the developers of the
original application never intended.

Or are you an advocate of one-size-fits-all apps?

Most NeXT-advocates appear to me, which is why OpenDoc doesn't appeal to
them, I guess.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 19 Jun 1997 09:41:01 -0700
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Christian Brunschen  said:

> Basically, you would place the database in the display server,
> then. _Say so_ instead of insulting me needlessly.
> 

*I* wouldn't place the database anywhere. The GX graphics heap resides
where it always does, in a private memory area that reveals itself to the
rest of the world as a database. You don't use pointers to access things
with GX, you use object references, like "1" or "2" -pointers to "1" or "2"
actually.


> All my comments apply: The application needs to talk to the database
> (as managed by GX), over the network (through the communications
> channel) for everything it wanted to do to the database. Thus incuring
> the usual penalty for talking over a network. Same way as commands to
> the DPS server are sent over the network.
> 

And the whole idea of a retained mode engine, whether it is evoked via a
communications channel or via a standard function call, is to *reduce* the
number of times that the engine needs to be evoked per shape drawn.

A GX shape encapsulates info about color, transfer mode, transform, view
destination, etc. Once these are set, a single call, GXDrawShape(myShape),
will draw that shape, whether it be a rectangle or curve or bitmap.

You can even construct an arbitrarily complex list of shapes called a
"picture shape," and draw ALL of those, regardless of which monitor,
off-screen destination, window, or combination thereof, that this picture
is to be drawn to, merely by saying "GXDrawShape(myPicture)"

Lessee...

A picture might include shapes with myriad colors, transformations,
transfer modes (composite modes), and so on. Under the DPS model, each
component of each shape would need to be created on one machine and the
individual elements of the shape would need to be sent over the
communications channel, one-at-a-time...

You can "retain" SOME information via dictionaries and so on, but the DPS
model says that you can't store global-state-modifying information this
way, which means that colors, transforms, transfer modes, dithering
options, clip shapes, etc., all need to be sent, one-at-a-time over the
communications channel.

The reason why I was "insulting" you was that THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A
RETAINED MODE graphics engine: reduce the number of times the system is
evoked by the user, whether via an API or via a communications channel.

If you are going to use the term, at least make some pretense of
understanding it.

Or read a book.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguishable from technology
-my corollary to Clarke's Law 
(AFAIK Mercedes Lackey got it from me at a World Fantasy Convention)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Date: 19 Jun 1997 17:17:24 GMT
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Cc: martin@wise-02.wiwi.tu-dresden.de

In <5ob9ht$cs3$1@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de> Martin Rose wrote:
> Does anybody know how to find out whether a directory-entry is a 
subdirectory 
> or a "real" file?? There would be a solution to check if a dot '.' appears 
in 
> the filename, but this criteria would not be enough, because there might be 
> filenames without any extension...

If you're on UNIX and not using OpenStep, see the stat(2) system call. 
man stat from a shell prompt.

If you are using OpenStep, see the NSFileManager class.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX OOP class proposal & contest (was Re: GX game graphics
Date: 19 Jun 1997 18:01:35 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>Christian Brunschen  said:
>
>> >But for some of the more interesting features of GX Printing to be
>> >workable, you need to have some kind of display-list mechanism that is
>> >universally defined.
>> 
>> Which more interesting features would that be ?
>> 
>> I have already made what I beleive to be a rather good argument
>> against placing functionality to modify the printing output on its way
>> from the application, to the printer, arguing that this functionality
>> would be better offered in the application itself.
>> 
>And I would argue that you are wrong.

Of course you would.

>At least my DTP-ing friends like the
>design of GX, where you can pass the output through GX extensions and
>modify a print job automatically in ways that the developers of the
>original application never intended.

One word: Services.

If you have a) your data in a format that can be copied&pasted to/from
the pasteboard, and b) an application that supports Services for that
type of data, you can write services which do exactly _anything_ with
your data, in ways the developers of the original application never
intended or thought possible.

Of course, the application writer wouldn't actually have to write any code
for this -- the hypothetical GXKit would simply define the necessary
Pasteboard data type, and the GXView class would implement the necessary
methods for providing and/or receiving data from services.

This is obviously much more flexible than putting filters on the way to
the printer, because I can now perform whatever transformations I want on 
my data not only when it goes to the printer, but also if I just want to
view the result on-screen. Or if I want to email the result to a co-worker.
To pick up your 'translate japanese glyphs to english words' example again,
why would I want to limit that translation to be made only on the way to
the printer ? Perhaps I am sinply providing the conversion as a favour to
my friend, Alex, who wrote the original document and wants to proof-read.
But, alas, he only has access to a PC running Windows where he currently is,
so he mails me the document, I convert it for him, and mail him the result
back ... not a single printer in sight.

>
>Or are you an advocate of one-size-fits-all apps?


Never. A bunch of applications that provide services to each other, that are
scriptable, will work _wonders_ together in ways that no monolithic app
could.

You keep making the rather large mistake that you consider everyone who
doesn't advocate your particular technology, to be anti-cool-technology,
or not having any grasp on what is useful. Services, which NeXT has had for
_years_, is a more general, more flexible, solution than GX's ability to 
insert filters on the way from application to printer. 

>
>Most NeXT-advocates appear to me, which is why OpenDoc doesn't appeal to
>them, I guess.

No, OpenDoc doesn't appear to most NeXT advocates because they already _have_
a system that works very well for making applications work _together_, without
the need for embedding them within each other: Services.

Personally, I think OpenDoc sounded cool -- idea-wise. However, the fact that
the implementation was C++-based immediately gave me a headache, for an Open-
Doc like system could not possibly work without a highly dynamic runtime
system to support it -- like Objective-C has .. or Java.

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of
>
>catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>


Best regards

// Christian Brunschen

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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Date: 19 Jun 1997 18:17:08 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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Martin Rose <martin@wise-02.wiwi.tu-dresden.de> wrote:
> Hi NeXTSTEP-Experts,

> Does anybody know how to find out whether a directory-entry is a subdirectory 
> or a "real" file?? There would be a solution to check if a dot '.' appears in 
> the filename, but this criteria would not be enough, because there might be 
> filenames without any extension...

> Do directory-entries own a certain flag that determines being a directory XOR 
> a file?

> I'd be glad to hear from you soon & much thanks in advance!

This is OS specific. See your OS's man pages.
I think it stat() or dir() or something under BSD.

-- 
Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
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From: d89cb@efd.lth.se (Christian Brunschen)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 19 Jun 1997 18:20:40 GMT
Organization: Lund Institute of Technology, Sweden
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>Christian Brunschen  said:
>
>> Basically, you would place the database in the display server,
>> then. _Say so_ instead of insulting me needlessly.
>> 
>
>*I* wouldn't place the database anywhere. The GX graphics heap resides
>where it always does, in a private memory area that reveals itself to the
>rest of the world as a database. You don't use pointers to access things
>with GX, you use object references, like "1" or "2" -pointers to "1" or "2"
>actually.

Who mentioned pointers ?

>
>
>> All my comments apply: The application needs to talk to the database
>> (as managed by GX), over the network (through the communications
>> channel) for everything it wanted to do to the database. Thus incuring
>> the usual penalty for talking over a network. Same way as commands to
>> the DPS server are sent over the network.
>> 
>
>And the whole idea of a retained mode engine, whether it is evoked via a
>communications channel or via a standard function call, is to *reduce* the
>number of times that the engine needs to be evoked per shape drawn.
>
>A GX shape encapsulates info about color, transfer mode, transform, view
>destination, etc. Once these are set, a single call, GXDrawShape(myShape),
>will draw that shape, whether it be a rectangle or curve or bitmap.
>
>You can even construct an arbitrarily complex list of shapes called a
>"picture shape," and draw ALL of those, regardless of which monitor,
>off-screen destination, window, or combination thereof, that this picture
>is to be drawn to, merely by saying "GXDrawShape(myPicture)"

Yes, but first you have to _construct_ your database. And then, if you are
changing anything, you have to modify the contents of your database. Yes,
the 'GX Heap'. Which means communicating with the server over the wire.

>
>Lessee...
>
>A picture might include shapes with myriad colors, transformations,
>transfer modes (composite modes), and so on. Under the DPS model, each
>component of each shape would need to be created on one machine and the
>individual elements of the shape would need to be sent over the
>communications channel, one-at-a-time...
>
>You can "retain" SOME information via dictionaries and so on, but the DPS
>model says that you can't store global-state-modifying information this
>way, which means that colors, transforms, transfer modes, dithering
>options, clip shapes, etc., all need to be sent, one-at-a-time over the
>communications channel.

You can 'retain' any kind of information you like in PostScript dictionaries.
A Path in itself doesn't store the global-state-modifying-info, no, but that's
because the same path can be reused with different global state info. In a
PostScript dictionary -- or any other kind of PostScript variable -- I can
store any kind of data PostScript can handle. Want to store line width,
dashing, transformation matrix, dithering options ? Yes, you can. Easily.

Fact is, you can write a full-blown retained graphics system _in PostScript_
if you want to. 

Furthermore, yes, there are cases when a retained-mode graphics system will
generate less network traffic then an immediate-mode system. However, the
inverse is _also_ true. A restructuring of your database, which might hardly
affect the on-screen display at all, will generate more traffic than if 
an immediate-mode system were used.

You see, in an immediate-mode system noone tries to second-guess the
application programmer's needs of possible storage of graphics.

>
>The reason why I was "insulting" you was that THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A
>RETAINED MODE graphics engine: reduce the number of times the system is
>evoked by the user, whether via an API or via a communications channel.
>

And of course, this WHOLE POINT is not appropriate in all cases.

>If you are going to use the term, at least make some pretense of
>understanding it.
>
>Or read a book.

*shaking my head* Your factual arguments really must be running out for you
to have to stoop to insults. 

>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Any sufficiently advanced magic will be indistinguishable from technology
>-my corollary to Clarke's Law 
>(AFAIK Mercedes Lackey got it from me at a World Fantasy Convention)
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

When would this event have taken place ... ?


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From: boehring@biomed.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Daniel Boehringer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Date: 19 Jun 1997 17:50:30 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
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hi martin,


try:


str=[[MiscString alloc] initString:"/der/pfad/der/datei"]


isDir=[str isFileOfType: Misc_Directory];

if you have the misckit installed, though :-)
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From: rbarris@quicksilver.com (Rob Barris)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prelude2Rhapsody on black hardware!
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 11:52:53 -0700
Organization: Quicksilver Software, Inc.
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:233704 comp.sys.next.programmer:25019


   Finally got to the point where I can install and boot "Prelude To
Rhapsody" OpenStep 4.2 from my Mac's old Conner 1GB hard drive, on the
NextStation-Turbo.

The successful sequence (I'll spare you the un-successful attempts)

a. detach internal Seagate 240MB drive
b. re-attach termination resistors, and install Conner 1080S at ID#0
c. attach CDROM drive at ID#1
d. insert NextStep 3.3 User CD (only bootable CD, it seems)
e. power on machine, enter low level monitor (command-backquote)
f. type "bsd(1,0,0)rootdev=sd1a" as in the "installing NextStep" book
g. boot from CD and install NS3.3
h. reboot from HD
i. insert OpenStep 4.2 CDROM and run installer
   (but make sure you are logged in as root first, not as 'me')

Whew!

The main hurdles that I ran into were

   0) the Prelude 4.2 CD is not bootable on black hardware it seems.

   1) the Conner wouldn't play friendly on the SCSI bus when cabled up
externally. Getting the old Seagate off the bus and hooking the Conner up
internally made all the difference.

   2) RTFM, it is crucial when doing this to have the CDROM at a higher
SCSI ID, and to issue the bsd command as above (from memory, pretty sure
that is the correct syntax for my example of HD=0, CD=1)

   Now that I have 4.2 User installed (and still several hundred MB's left
on this drive) I can go ahead with installing 4.2 Developer and write some
programs!
   Thanks to all who responded and helped out.

Rob Barris      Quicksilver Software Inc.  rbarris@quicksilver.com
   * Opinions expressed not necessarily those of my employer *
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:04:51 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 77
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.advocacy: 19-Jun-97 Re: GX remote
drawing (Was .. by "Lawson English"@primene 
>> All my comments apply: The application needs to talk to the database
>> (as managed by GX), over the network (through the communications
>> channel) for everything it wanted to do to the database. Thus incuring
>> the usual penalty for talking over a network. Same way as commands to
>> the DPS server are sent over the network.
>  
> And the whole idea of a retained mode engine, whether it is evoked via a
> communications channel or via a standard function call, is to *reduce* the
> number of times that the engine needs to be evoked per shape drawn.

They have nothing particularly to do with each other.  Reducing
communications latency by eliminating unnecessary round-trips between a
client process which wants drawing to be done on it's behalf and the
server process which performs the drawing is a good idea in general, and
you can find both immediate-mode and retained-mode graphic engines which
try to optimize communications.

Of course, the problem is that retained-mode graphic engines run into
problems trying to run in a distributed fashion due to the reasons
already explained.

[ ... ]
> A picture might include shapes with myriad colors, transformations,
> transfer modes (composite modes), and so on. Under the DPS model, each
> component of each shape would need to be created on one machine and the
> individual elements of the shape would need to be sent over the
> communications channel, one-at-a-time...
>  
> You can "retain" SOME information via dictionaries and so on, but the DPS
> model says that you can't store global-state-modifying information this
> way, which means that colors, transforms, transfer modes, dithering
> options, clip shapes, etc., all need to be sent, one-at-a-time over the
> communications channel.

You completely don't get it, do you?

The whole reason DPS _doesn't_ put that kind of information in the
drawing engine itself is to avoid round-trip communication latency
between the client and server.  That information (or much of it, away)
is kept in the client as state within various AppKit objects like
(NS)Views, and (NS)Text objects, and so forth.  That means your client
application can access that information directly without having to get a
response back from DPS.

In the event that GX ever becomes network remoteable (ie, capable of
drawing to other machines on the network), the fact that most of the
"interesting" information is kept by GX means that you will have _more_
communication latency when your client wants to access things like
clipping regions, glyph characteristics, colors, and so forth.

> The reason why I was "insulting" you was that THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF A
> RETAINED MODE graphics engine: reduce the number of times the system is
> evoked by the user, whether via an API or via a communications channel.

And you're mistaken if you believe that a retained mode graphic engine
does a better job of reducing communications latency when remotely
displaying graphics than an immediate mode graphic engine in the event
that the client wishes to examine and/or manipulate the state of the
various graphic objects present in the system.

> If you are going to use the term, at least make some pretense of
> understanding it.
>  
> Or read a book.

"Do as I say, not as I do?", huh?
Gods, what hypocracy....

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 16:23:27 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 25
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References: <5ob9ht$cs3$1@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>
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In-Reply-To: <5ob9ht$cs3$1@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 19-Jun-97 Identifying
Directories wit.. by Martin Rose) 
> Does anybody know how to find out whether a directory-entry is a 
> subdirectory or a "real" file??

Take a look at 'man stat' for the stat() and/or fstat() functions, and
the S_IFDIR bit of st_mode field of a (struct stat *), at least under
Unix and/or the POSIX environment of Windows NT.

> There would be a solution to check if a dot '.' appears in the filename, but
> this criteria would not be enough, because there might be filenames
> without any extension...

Hint: the special entries '.' and '..' have periods in them, and those
are directories.  Looking at a filename in order to guess whether it's a
directory is the wrong approach, and is guaranteed to be non-portable.

-Chuck



         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: bozack@blkbox.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: posix libraries
Date: 19 Jun 1997 21:48:50 GMT
Organization: The Black Box, Houston, Tx (713) 480-2686 
Lines: 25
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I noticed OPENSTEP 4.1 comes with no uname binary, so I thought I'd write 
one.

So I looked at the man page for the uname() system call and slapped out some 
code that would theoretically work .. until I found that the uname() isn't 
present in the libraries that are linked automatically.

I also tried compiling tcl-7.6p2 (so I could compile eggdrop).  the tcl 
library is archived fine, but tclsh fails during linkage since it can't find 
mkfifo() .. fine, I say.  I didn't need tcslsh ANYWAY.  All I needed was the 
library.  So I go to compile eggdrop, but it fails during linkage because 
references to the mkifo() call are present in the library, but the call 
itself is nowhere to be found.  I could theoretically remove all references 
to mkfifo() in tcl (it's only referenced twice), but you never know when a 
tcl app will pop up that needs to use fifos!

Both of these (uname and mkfifo) are posix only system calls.  OPENSTEP 4.1 
doesn't come with a posix library, and simply feeding the compiler a -posix 
flag isn't going to do much good.

So where do I go from here to find these magic system calls?

Thanks in advance!
Dan

####################################################################
From: robertg@trg.saic.com (Robert Gottlieb)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: PB.project parsing solved
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Message-ID: <12722230@NEWS.SAIC.COM>
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 22:08:08 GMT
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Hi ya'all,

I figured out how to parse the PB.project in NS 3.3.  

Read the file into an NSString.
Ask NSString for propertyListFromStringsFileFormat.
This will return an NSDictionary.  You're done!

L8r,

Robert


--
robertg@trg.saic.com 		NeXTMail preferred, others accepted
"I believe that what I'm feeling Changes how the world appears" - Neil Peart 
(Rush)
"The above comments/opinions are not that of SAIC"


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From: macintsh@bu.edu (John Siracusa)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSClassNames -> ??ClassNames
Date: 19 Jun 1997 23:30:12 GMT
Organization: Boston University
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I was told by a former NeXT (now Apple) employee at
PC Expo this week that all the class names in
OpenStep like NSButton, etc.  are going to be renamed
now that "NS" no longer has any bearing on the OS
(Rhapsody).  My question is, what nomenclature will
they use?  "CClassName" like Microsoft?  Class names
based on libararies like the EOF classes seem to
have?

-----------------+----------------------------------------
  John Siracusa  | If you only have a hammer, you tend to
 macintsh@bu.edu | see every problem as a nail. -- Maslow

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 20 Jun 1997 00:13:00 -0700
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Charles William Swiger  said:

> 
> And you're mistaken if you believe that a retained mode graphic engine
> does a better job of reducing communications latency when remotely
> displaying graphics than an immediate mode graphic engine in the event
> that the client wishes to examine and/or manipulate the state of the
> various graphic objects present in the system.

If the client app has to examine and/or manipulate the state of various
graphics objects present in the system often enough to make this an issue,
than the retained graphics model isn't a very good fit for that purpose,
even if running on the same system.

How often do you need to examine the color of a rectangle?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: chris@polaris.scicntr.ortn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.bugs
Subject: Re: IB: Missing Main Menu
Date: 20 Jun 1997 08:31:24 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee
Lines: 27
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In article ,
chris@polaris.scicntr.ortn.edu wrote:

> I've been working on an app; Its a rather large app and of course has a
> Main Menu. But the strangest thing is going on:
> 
> In the app's main nib, there is the icon for the mainMenu. The weird thing
> is that I can't seem to find this actual menu anywhere, i.e I double-click
> on the icon, the Inspector switches to Menu Inspector, the name of the
> app/menu title appears in the 'Title' text field, but the 'physical' list
> of menu cells appears nowhere. 
> 
> I compile/run the app and it shows up as the app's main menu, just as you'd
> expect; I switch back to IB and it's still gone.
> 
> (It's been missing for days, and frankly I'm worried.)
> 
> Has anyone seen this before ?
> 
> 
> CB

Sorry... New e-mail address : beauvois@usa.net

Regards --

CB
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From: dirk@object-factory.com (Dirk Olmes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: no genstrings on Solaris
Date: 20 Jun 1997 07:53:05 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
Lines: 25
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Hi,

I just tried to port a small WebObjects test to Solaris. 

Unfortunately it uses the MOKit. So I built a version of MOKit on Solaris 
(without the AppKit Stuff, of course) and tried to install the Framework. 
Unfortunately, MOKit wants to run a utility named "genstrings" when 
installing the framework.

On Intel it is located in /usr/bin but I can't find it on Solaris. Am I 
missing something?

-dirk

---
______________________________________________________________________
Dirk Olmes      OBJECT FACTORY
                Gesellschaft fuer Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
                Otto-Hahn Str. 18, 44227 Dortmund, Germany
                Telephon +49 (0) 231 975 137 0
                Telefax +49 (0) 231 975 137 99
                dirk@object-factory.com
                http://www.object-factory.com/

Hiroshima 45, Tschernobyl 86, Windows 95
####################################################################
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From: beauvois@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: IB Did/Will
Date: 20 Jun 1997 08:52:34 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee
Lines: 42
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Sorry... I posted this earlier but left my old e-mail address.

 I'm trying to get an NS 2.1 palette to work on 3.3, and I run into an
 'implicit declaration of function ...' error for two IB functions.
 Consequently the palette gets built but doesn't work. The code and errors
 are as follows:
 
 (The class being compiled is a subclass of IBInspector. There are only
 these two methods in it.)
 
 
 + finishLoading:(struct mach_header *)header
 {  
    NIBDidLoadClass(self, header);
    return nil;
 }
 
 + startUnloading 
 {   
    NIBWillUnloadClass(self);
   return nil;
 }
 
 
 
 (The errors: ) 
 
 warning: implicit declaration of function `NIBDidLoadClass'
 warning: implicit declaration of function `NIBWillUnloadClass'
 
 
 
  I am not familiar with what is going on here, and haven't found any
 documentation on these functions.
 
  Anyone ?
 
 
 Thanks  --
 
 CB
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From: far@ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: posix libraries
Date: 20 Jun 1997 08:55:33 GMT
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <5odgi5$8qd@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>
References: <5oc9g2$ca0@news.blkbox.com>
Reply-To: far@ix.netcom.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: whx-ca5-20.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Jun 20  1:55:33 AM PDT 1997

In article <5oc9g2$ca0@news.blkbox.com> bozack@blkbox.com writes:
 >I noticed OPENSTEP 4.1 comes with no uname binary, so I thought I'd write 
 >one.
 >
 >So I looked at the man page for the uname() system call and slapped out some 
 >code that would theoretically work .. until I found that the uname() isn't 
 >present in the libraries that are linked automatically.
 >
 >I also tried compiling tcl-7.6p2 (so I could compile eggdrop).  the tcl 
 >library is archived fine, but tclsh fails during linkage since it can't find 
 >mkfifo() .. fine, I say.  I didn't need tcslsh ANYWAY.  All I needed was the 
 >library.  So I go to compile eggdrop, but it fails during linkage because 
 >references to the mkifo() call are present in the library, but the call 
 >itself is nowhere to be found.  I could theoretically remove all references 
 >to mkfifo() in tcl (it's only referenced twice), but you never know when a 
 >tcl app will pop up that needs to use fifos!
 >
 >Both of these (uname and mkfifo) are posix only system calls.  OPENSTEP 4.1 
 >doesn't come with a posix library, and simply feeding the compiler a -posix 
 >flag isn't going to do much good.
 >
 >So where do I go from here to find these magic system calls?
 >
 >Thanks in advance!
 >Dan


For mkfifo you can just add the following to your code:

int mkfifo (const char *path, mode_t mode)
{
	return mknod (path, mode | S_IFIFO, 0);
}

You should be able to do the same for uname by extracting the
necessary info using BSD system calls.




--
Felipe A. Rodriguez    #  Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
Agoura Hills, CA       #  being a private citizen because he was
                       #  armed; his successors, since they avoided 
far@ix.netcom.com      #  the inconveniences of arms, became private    
(NeXTmail preferred)   #  citizens after having been dukes.
(MIMEmail welcome)     #                     --Nicolo Machiavelli
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From: flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de (Gregor Hoffleit)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GNU binutils-2.8.1
Date: 20 Jun 1997 13:02:23 GMT
Organization: InterNetNews at News.BelWue.DE (Stuttgart, Germany)
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kevinc (kevinc@netcom.com) wrote:
: Has anyone compiled 2.8.1 for NextStep 3.3? configure complains
: thjat Intel 3.3 is not supported by BFD.

: Any assistance will be most appreciated.

You'll have to implement support for the mach-o format for the BFD
package. It's certainly non-trivial.

	Gregor


--
|                Gregor Hoffleit   Mathematisches Institut, Uni HD    |
| flight@mathi.uni-heidelberg.de   INF 288, 69120 Heidelberg, Germany |
|               (NeXTmail, MIME)   (49)6221 54-5771    fax  54-8312   |
|                  "We will make windows invisible"                   |
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From: alanf@izzy.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q]Using devices
Date: 20 Jun 1997 14:34:33 GMT
Organization: "Comshare, Inc."
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5oe4dp$dr6$1@inet-prime.comshare.com>
References: 
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Cc: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr

In  fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr wrote:
> 	-Which device  (/dev/????) should I use to communicate whith my serial 
port?
> 	-How configuring a device?
> 	-How configuring a port for lauching an executable automatically.
> (example : a user connect himself on a port via a modem et man launch a BBS 
program).
> 
> Thanks for help.
> 
You may want to look at the MiscSerialPort object in MiscKit. 

Regards, 
Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net) 

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From: bruno@gruick.univ-lr.fr (Bruno Garnier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Problem EOF procedure
Date: 20 Jun 1997 14:54:54 GMT
Organization: Universite de La Rochelle
Lines: 44
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Hi All,

I work on OpenStep4.1 and EOF 2.0 and Oracle 7.3

I try to use a stored procedure that have 100 parameters
BUt I can't retrieve it on EOModeler
SO I insert manually this stored procedure into my model 
but when i try to execute this procedure in my project  
I've got always the same error message : 
*** -[OracleNumberColumn setColumnLengthAndClientTypeForAttribute:] unknown 
number type: "*nil*"

after verification i can only retrieve stored procedures with 20 parameters 
or less

Can you give me some help please

thank you and sorry for my poor english
-- 

Bruno Garnier
Centre de Ressources Informatique
Universite de La Rochelle
Avenue Marillac
17042 LA ROCHELLE CEDEX 01
Tel : 46 45 82 14
Fax : 46 45 82 45
http://www.univ-lr.fr/

bruno@cri.univ-lr.fr     (NeXTMail, MIME Mail)

           |~~~|
           |~~~|D    Guinness
          C|. :|D       is
           |: .|D  good for you !
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From: alanf@izzy.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Impressed
Date: 20 Jun 1997 15:12:38 GMT
Organization: "Comshare, Inc."
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5oe6l6$ecc$1@inet-prime.comshare.com>
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Cc: Greg_Anderson@afs.com

In <5njqj7$jqi@shelob.afs.com> Gregory H. Anderson wrote:
> "Robert Norman"  writes
> > 
> > Now I've produced a demonstration package for my client that builds a
> > signal (sin wave, square wave) dyamically in one view. You move sliders
> > to change the amplitude, frequency, noise content, and phase of the
> > waveform and the wave updates as you drag the sliders.  This was to test
> > the graphics and the results were impressive.  The waveforms update very
> > fast with no disturbing screen update garbage.  I'm just using PSxxxx 
> > calls to do the graphics.
> 
> Yes, but can you draw 3D perspective text along the waves in six different 
> transfer modes and three different languages with different orientations?
> 
Geez... what's really scary is we all know exactly which mock-persona would 
have wrote that!

Regards, 
Alan Frabutt (alanf@izzy.net) 

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From: mpaque@yummyspam.wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Date: 20 Jun 1997 09:04:47 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
Lines: 56
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Distribution: world
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NNTP-Posting-Host: serpens194.wco.com

In article <5ob9ht$cs3$1@rks1.urz.tu-dresden.de>   
martin@wise-02.wiwi.tu-dresden.de (Martin Rose) writes:
> Hi NeXTSTEP-Experts,
> 
> Does anybody know how to find out whether a directory-entry is a  
subdirectory 
> or a "real" file?? There would be a solution to check if a dot '.'  
appears in 
> the filename, but this criteria would not be enough, because there might  
be 
> filenames without any extension...

The proper, portable way to do this under OPENSTEP is to use NSFileManager  
to ask if a particular file object is a directory.  (Note that hard-coded  
paths are bad.  They are used here only for brevity.  Use the NSOpen panel  
or other UI for user settable paths, the NSDefaults system for preferences,  
and NSBundle for code related paths.)

The fileExistsAtPath:isDirectory: method will tell you if a file exists,  
and if it is a directory  This example gets an NSArray that identifies the  
fonts in /NextLibrary/Fonts:

	NSArray *subpaths;
	BOOL isDir=NO;
	NSString *fontPath = @"/NextLibrary/Fonts";
	NSFileManager *manager = [NSFileManager defaultManager];
	if ([manager fileExistsAtPath:fontPath isDirectory:&isDir] 
		&& isDir)
	    subpaths = [manager subpathsAtPath:fontPath];


You can easily enumerate the subpaths or entries in a directory using the  
NSDirectoryEnumerator class.  The following example enumerates the contents  
of a directory and processes files; if, however, it comes across RTFD file  
packages, it skips recursion into them:

	NSDirectoryEnumerator *direnum = [[NSFileManager defaultManager]
		enumeratorWithPath:@ /Sales/Reports ];
	NSString *pname;
	while (pname = [direnum nextObject]) {
		if ([[pname pathExtension] isEqualToString:@ rtfd ]) {
			[direnum skipDescendents]; /* don't enumerate this  
							directory */
		} else {
		/* ...process file here... */
		}

-- 
	Mike Paquette	(mpaque AT wco.com ; Yank that yummyspam to reply.)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: kcd@babylon5.jumpgate.com (Kenneth C. Dyke)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSClassNames -> ??ClassNames
Date: 20 Jun 1997 16:41:24 GMT
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On 06/19/97, John Siracusa wrote:
>I was told by a former NeXT (now Apple) employee at
>PC Expo this week that all the class names in
>OpenStep like NSButton, etc.  are going to be renamed
>now that "NS" no longer has any bearing on the OS
>(Rhapsody).  My question is, what nomenclature will
>they use?  "CClassName" like Microsoft?  Class names
>based on libararies like the EOF classes seem to
>have?

Hmm... this seems like a really dumb idea if true.  I can't
see any real practical value in changing the class prefix 
on already existing OpenStep classes.  I can certainly see
the value in using different prefixes for NEW classes, like
QTxxxx for QuickTime classes, etc.   Changing the AppKit and
Foundation class names just for the sake of changing the
class names seems like it would be far more trouble than it
would be worth, would do nothing (IMHO) to help new 
programmers, and would only be a pain in the ass for people
that already have OpenStep code written or in progress.

-Ken

-- 
Kenneth Dyke, kcd@jumpgate.com (personal), kdyke@ea.com (work)
 Nuclear Strike and OPENSTEP Tools Engineer, Electronic Arts
  C++: The power, elegance and simplicity of a hand grenade.
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From: jabi@acsu.buffalo.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:45:44 -0400
Organization: University At Buffalo
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eric@skatter.USask.Ca wrote:
> 
> Would someone out there running OPENSTEP 4.2 try my famous printf test program?

Using gcc from OPENSTEP 4.2 Enterprise on Windows NT 4.0:

$ a.out
Expect 0.00123: 0.00123
Expect 123: 123
Expect 123.5: 123.5
Expect 1e+03: 1e+003
$

-- 
Wassim Jabi, Assistant Professor  Department of Architecture
wjabi@arch.buffalo.edu            State University of New York at
Buffalo
Tel: +1 716.829.3485 Ext. 323     3435 Main St. - Hayes Hall
Fax: +1 716.829.3256              Buffalo, NY 14214-3087
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From: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Date: 20 Jun 1997 17:53:32 GMT
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Cc: 

In article <5obrh6$pvv$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,
Daniel Boehringer  wrote:

>if you have the misckit installed, though :-)

What is it and where can we find it? Is it portable across OPENSTEP
platforms? (Right now I thought the only portable kits were basically
FoundationKit and AppKit).

Thanks!


--
Franois Pottier
Francois.Pottier@inria.fr
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~fpottier/
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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: 19 Jun 1997 14:14:29 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
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In-reply-to: Tim Pugh's message of 18 Jun 1997 17:12:25 GMT

In article <5o94tp$atk@news.orst.edu> Tim Pugh  writes:
   In <5npof5$jlf@tribune.usask.ca> eric@skatter.USask.Ca wrote:
   > Would someone out there running OPENSTEP 4.2 try my famous printf
   > test program?
   > 
   > For those of you coming in late, this program tests for a bug
   > that has been present since NeXTstep version 1.0 and which I
   > first reported in December, 1989.
<...tries it...>
   The answer is NO.  I guess we'll have to wait until Rhapsody and
   BSD4.4 .

What if they are actively supporting the broken behaviour?  I can't
imagine it would be more than a couple line change, no need to go to
BSD4.4.  Perhaps some large NeXT-loyal corporation has been using the
broken behaviour for something, and every time NeXT fixes it, all
their programs break.  Hopefully that corporation isn't NeXT (in the
depths of FoundationKit or somesuch).

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: PB.project file format
Date: 19 Jun 1997 14:16:09 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 29
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In-reply-to: robertg@trg.saic.com's message of Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:53:37 GMT

In article <12342024@NEWS.SAIC.COM> robertg@trg.saic.com (Robert Gottlieb) writes:
   I'm trying to parse a PB.project file (NS 3.3) and I want to put
   the results in a dictionary.  Ultimately I just need the
   PROJECTTYPE and PROJECTNAME attributes.  I know I could get both of
   those via grep or some other shell utility, but I really want to
   try to make this work in ObjC.  I've also heard that NS 4.?
   changes it to be a true property list, but I'm not upgrading just
   yet.

   Anyway, if anyone knows of a way of reading the PB.project file
   into an NSDictionary or some similiar structure, I'd love to hear
   your ideas.

Something like this should work:

void main( void) {
    NSString *file=[[NSString alloc] initWithContentsOfFile:@"PB.project"];
    id dict=[file propertyListFromStringsFileFormat];
    printf( "dict==%s/%p\n", [[[dict class] description] cString], dict);
    printf( "contents==%s\n", [[dict description] cString]);
}

Change propertyListFromStringsFileFormat to propertyList to read an
NS4.0-style PB.project,

--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

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From: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 20 Jun 1997 18:03:06 GMT
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Hi,

I'm discovering OpenStep and have a question which I hope might be
answered here...

I have read about OpenStep's convention for retaining and releasing
objects, using reference counts. When an object's reference count
drops to zero, it becomes eligible for collecting. The question is,
when will it be collected?

OpenStep's documentation says "at the end of the current event loop".
This explanation sounds a little too simplistic and I'd like to have
a better understanding. The way I figure, the object is collected 
when its NSAutoreleasePool dies. OpenStep creates such a pool at the
beginning of the event cycle and kills it at the end, hence the
above sentence. Is this correct?

Now, on to the next question: what happens in a multi-threaded
application? Suppose I have a function which creates an object,
autoreleases it and returns it to its caller, and the function is
executed in a secondary thread. When the function exits, the
object's reference count is 0. Obviously, we don't want it to be
collected right now, because the caller is going to retain it. So,
the object must not be collected "at the end of the current event
cycle", because that might happen at any moment. Rather, we need
the object to live as long as the thread lives, because we can't
determine when it will no longer be necessary, can we? So, my
conclusion is, each thread needs to have its own NSReleasePool
which has the same life duration as the thread; and objects
allocated in a thread shall be released only when the thread dies.

Is all this correct? Or did I miss something altogether? To sum up,
the basic question, can I follow the retain/autorelease rules blindly
even in a multi-threaded application?

By the way, while I'm here, I have another question about threads.
OpenStep's documentation says that the AppKit is not reentrant. So,
in a multi-threaded application, I guess I need to either: - allow
calling the AppKit only from the main thread or: - create a lock
and acquire it every time I call the AppKit. (The first method sounds
simpler). What do you guys do about this?

Thanks a lot for reading up to this point!

--
Franois Pottier
Francois.Pottier@inria.fr
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~fpottier/
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: nuke.c
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 1997 13:06:37 -0700
Organization: The PEAK FTP site for OpenStep & NeXTStep
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Remember the 'nuke' program that was supposed to kill unkillable
processes?

This is the code:

        #include 
        #include 

        main(int argc, char *argv[]){
          if(argc != 2){
            fprintf(stderr, "Usage: %s pid\n", argv[0]);
            exit(1);
          } else{
            task_t task;
            task_by_unix_pid(task_self(), atoi(argv[1]), &task);
            task_terminate(task);
            exit(0);
          }
        }

It caused my 3.3 m68k machine to panic after working fine with 3.2....

Just wanted to mention that it works fine with OS4.1/mach/Intel

TjL


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From: sams@best.com (Samuel G. Streeper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 20 Jun 1997 16:58:10 -0700
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These were fine questions, mon ami!  Before I 
begin let me say that the ref-counting system
invites problems with under-freeing (leaking) and
over-freeing (invalid pointers and smashers)
due to programming bugs, incomplete documentation
or design knowlege, and even design necessities,
and when these problems occur they will be
very tricky to track.  This info is just so you 
know what you're in for.  I understand the rationales 
behind the design of the freeing system, but the 
design is inherently flawed and unwieldy.

I believe that there is by default 1 autorelease
pool per thread.  I don't think this is documented
but I have faith that this works because I've
seen no evidence to the contrary and I think the
merde would quickly and very apparently show
evidence of its encounter with the proverbial fan
if its function were otherwise.

> To sum up, the basic question, can I follow 
> the retain/autorelease rules blindly
> even in a multi-threaded application?

Similarly summarily, I suspect you shall not
see memory anomalies from mixing threads
and release pool stuff, though I would expect
you to see them for other reasons.  I
could be wrong...

-sam

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Date: Sat, 21 Jun 1997 11:41:35 -0600
From: e1@biogate.com
Subject: Free sex site password
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Hi, I paid $24 dollars for this password, and then for some strange reason
my check bounced, so I ended up paying almost $50 bucks. For that much
money I think I should be able to share it with people in my newsgroups.
username is - tom25
passcode is - dodge

the site is at;

http://204.191.136.6/~kiervinl/s.html

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 21 Jun 1997 13:45:18 GMT
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On 06/20/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>How often do you need to examine the color of a rectangle?
>
Probably about as often as you have to translate every third blue word in 
every other paragraph into a 3D Japananese character.

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 


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From: MWRon@metrowerks.com (MW Ron)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.tools.mfc,comp.sys.next.misc
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Metrowerks Current Job Openings
Metrowerks is the creator of CodeWarrior, a suite of software development
tools used by programmers around the world. This fast-growing,
Austin-based company is currently seeking candidates to fill a number of
positions:

RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT
Four-year college degrees required; computer science, computer engineering
and electrical engineering degrees preferred.

A. Libraries/Performance Analysis Engineer, C/C++/Pascal/Java
Some experience with FORTRAN, C, C++ or Java required. Duties will include
various subsets of the following:

* measuring compiler performance across various x86, PowerPC, 68K, MIPS
implementations
* analysis of object code for codgen flaws, possible areas of improvement
* analysis via automated suites to determine optimal library designs,
evaluating new sources
* testing C/C++ libraries for conformance to ISO and emerging standards,
fixing singularities
* writing example code, writing technical documentation, providing
high-end support for STL users

 B. Rapid Application Development (RAD) Tools
(Both junior and senior level positions available)
These positions will include the design and implementation of core
technology and user interface for tools to assist in the development of
object-oriented applications. Candidates should have strong Windows or
Macintosh experience (experience with both Windows and Macintosh
preferred) and a proven track record delivering major applications in C++.
Candidates should also have played a key role in contributing to projects
involving extensive user interface and core code.

Preference will be given to candidates with experience with the following:
previous development tool implementation experience, Java, Visual C++,
MFC, ActiveX or NextStep.

C. Software Engineer for CodeWarrior Latitude
This person will develop portable implementations of Macintosh Toolbox
functionality for CodeWarrior Latitude. Will write code in C, C++, & ObjC
on non-Mac platforms including Solaris, IRIX, HP-UX and Rhapsody. UNIX
experience, however, is not essential. Will develop testing suites for
quality assurance.

Candidates are required to have at least three years of solid Mac
programming experience. Also, candidates with strengths in interprocess
communications such as AppleTalk and AppleEvents, AppleScript and
OpenTransport are desired. Experience with WorldScript & other
Internationalization features, such as multi-byte character handling, is a
bonus.

D. UNIX Programmer
Metrowerks is looking for a junior to intermediate level programmer for
its UNIX group. Candidates must know C and C++ and have at least two years
programming experience. Previous experience programming on UNIX is a must;
experience in UNIX programming with gcc preferred.

E. Quality Assurance Engineers
Metrowerks is looking for people with strong cross platform skills and
some programming and testing experience. Quality assurance engineers will
work in a rapidly changing environment and will enjoy the benefits of
working with state-of-the-art (bleeding edge) technologies such as Java,
BeOS, PalmOS (Pilot), MacOS 8 and others.

Macintosh and/or Microsoft Windows programming experience is required.
Must be familiar with one or more of the following programming languages:
C, C++, Java, Pascal and one or more of the following platforms:
Macintosh, Microsoft Windows 95/NT or UNIX.



Medical, dental, life, disability and 401K plans are available to
employees. For more information, see the Metrowerks web page
.

Please send resumes by email to hr@metrowerks.com, or by fax to Recruiting
Coordinator at 512/873-4900.

-- 
     METROWERKS                                   Ron Liechty
 http://www.metrowerks.com     MWRon@metrowerks.com
####################################################################
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <3108866347221@digifix.com>
Date: 22 Jun 1997 03:57:06 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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Topics include:
        Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
        OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
        Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
        NeXTanswers



Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================

  The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
  sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
  
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
  http://www.stepwise.com
      Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
      since March 1993.  Some of the many resources on the site
      include:  OpenStep Third Party Software guide, Developer
      Directory, Mailing List information, extensive listing of
      FTP and WWW sites related to OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep
      related Frequently Asked Questions.
      
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
  http://www.peak.org/next
  http://www.peak.org/openstep
      PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
      America.

NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
  http://www.peak.org/next
  http://www.peak.org/openstep
      PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
      America.  This is the World Wide Web interace to the FTP 
      site.

Apple Enterprise Software Group 
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
  http://www.next.com
      Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
      information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
      patches.
     
Apple Computer's 'Prelude to Rhapsody' Self Support Site
  http://devworld.apple.com/dev/prelude.html
      This site has been constructed to help you help yourself to
      learn as much as possible about the foundation for Rhapsody,
      today's OPENSTEP. The site provides an informal collection
      of pointers, references, and starting points for developers
      who are using the Prelude to Rhapsody bundle, distributed at
      this year's Worldwide Developer Conference.



OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
  
      This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
      else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
      to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
      Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
      products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
      announcements etc.)

      This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
      to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
      next-announce@digifix.com  where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
      will screen them for suitability.

      Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
      to any other comp.sys.next groups.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
      A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
      Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
      this is a place for the net community find out about problems
      when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
      signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
      really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
      crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
      individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
      groups as well.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
      Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
      and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
      with  NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
      are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
      SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
      to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
      NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
      crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
      crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
      regional newsgroups.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
      For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
      here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
      no crossposting!!!

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
      Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
      This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

      Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
      although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
      porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
      several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
      comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
      etc.) that may also be of interest.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
      This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
      that run on NEXTSTEP systems.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
      Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
      cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.

** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
 
   COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
      Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
      Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
      comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
      similar to NEXTSTEP.

   COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
      Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
      discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.

   COMP.OBJECT
      Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
      but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
      times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
      OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
      comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
      it.)

      Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
      of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
      moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
      newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================

    Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
    are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
    
	    next-nextstep
	    next-advocacy
	    next-announce
	    next-bugs
	    next-hardware
	    next-marketplace
	    next-misc
	    next-programmer
	    next-software
	    next-sysadmin
	    object
	    lang-objective-c
    
    (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
    
    The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
    
    To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
    
	    subscribe
    
    where * is the name of the list
    e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================

   ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
       The main site for North American submissions formerly
       ftp.cs.orst.edu
   ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-muenchen.de:
       (Peanuts) Located in Germany.  Comprehensive archive site.
       Very well maintained.
   ftp://terra.stack.urc.tue.nl
       (Dutch NEXTSTEP User Group)
   ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
       (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
   ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
       eduStep
   ftp://ftp.next.com:
       See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
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From: jbf_see_sig@frazer.com (James B. Frazer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: posix libraries
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 1997 06:36:36 -0400
Organization: The Internet Access Company, Inc.
Lines: 11
Message-ID: 
References: <5oc9g2$ca0@news.blkbox.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: frazer.com
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5

In article <5oc9g2$ca0@news.blkbox.com>, bozack@blkbox.com wrote:

> Both of these (uname and mkfifo) are posix only system calls.  OPENSTEP 4.1 
> doesn't come with a posix library, and simply feeding the compiler a -posix 
> flag isn't going to do much good.
> 
> So where do I go from here to find these magic system calls?

Back to 3.3?

Barney (delete that _see_sig to email me)
a Zip) only to have the Mac OS refuse to open them.

Thanks in advance for any advice!!

--------------------------------------------------------------
chuck@cmich.slip.netcom.com
NeXT Mail and MIME Mail gladly accepted
--------------------------------------------------------------
####################################################################
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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OS/NT with Citrix/WinFrame
Date: 23 Jun 1997 12:59:47 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5ols03$agj$1@concorde.ctp.com>
Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dub099.dublin.ctp.com

Hey Folks!

The client asked us if our system will work on top of NT product, called  
WinFrame (from Citrix). It seams to provide a sort of functionality similar to  
NXHosing (I was told so...).

Any ideas, rumors, experience? 

Thanks

G.T.

--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street 
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
####################################################################
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From: "Richard Oesterreicher" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.amiga.programmer,comp.sys.be.programmer
Subject: Re: Free online pubication - Attainment adding Software Developers' column
Date: 22 Jun 1997 18:32:15 GMT
Organization: ro design
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <01bc7f3a$575a7cf0$020a0a64@batman>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 38.28.41.229
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Internet News 4.70.1161
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:25052 comp.sys.amiga.programmer:91018 comp.sys.be.programmer:819

attainment  wrote in article
...
> 
> Subject: Free online pubication - Attainment adding Software Developers'
column
> 
> 
> I thought programmers who are software entrepreneurs would appreciate
> knowing that we've added a column to our free online publication that
will
> deal with software issues, and how to build a business selling software
> online and off.
> 
> It's located at
> 
>      http://www.abiogenesis.com/attainment
> 


Why does almost every page say Issue #1 - February '97?
I can't help but notice that is around the same time (End of January) the
Northwest Firebug Be User's group site (also at www.abiogenesis.com) dried
up and stopped updating its site with the tag, "Under construction, Great
things to come!"

How often do you plan to update your business resources site with new
articles?

Thanks,
Richard Oesterreicher
ROester@rodesign.com

"If you don't make time to do it right, when will you have time to do it
over."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+  Your life is HARD, your software should be EASY!
+  Now it can be     http://www.rodesign.com
+  ro design, Inc.        (425) 844-2921
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


####################################################################
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From: "Lee Byeong-ho" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q]How can I save in database?
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:06:07 -0000
Organization: Hansol Telecom
Lines: 20
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Hi All, 

I'm using WOF3.1, EOF2.1, and Oracle 7.3 and have problem creating records
using Oracle. I'm going to make some BBS and it's necessary for me to save
some contents in DB. 

How can I do this? Someone talked me to use 'saveObject:'method.
 
I'm novice. Please tell me about those in Detail... 
Thanks in advance for any comments!!! 

---------------------- 
Lee, Byeong-ho 
Yuhan C&T, Seoul, Korea 
mailto:bhlee@cnt.co.kr 

---- God is Love-------


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From: "Lee Byeong-ho" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q]How can I save in database?
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:06:07 -0000
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Hi All, 

I'm using WOF3.1, EOF2.1, and Oracle 7.3 and have problem creating records
using Oracle. I'm going to make some BBS and it's necessary for me to save
some contents in DB. 

How can I do this? Someone talked me to use 'saveObject:'method.
 
I'm novice. Please tell me about those in Detail... 
Thanks in advance for any comments!!! 

---------------------- 
Lee, Byeong-ho 
Yuhan C&T, Seoul, Korea 
mailto:bhlee@cnt.co.kr 

---- God is Love-------


####################################################################
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From: dob@mrd3.mmm.ucar.edu (David Blanchard,,,)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Fortran compiler
Date: 22 Jun 1997 16:40:21 GMT
Organization: NOAA/NSSL, Boulder, Colorado
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I've scanned the FAQs and looked through the newsgroups but cannot
find the information I seek.  I'm interested in a Fortran compiler for
NeXTstep v3.3 running on a Sun Sparcstation.  I've found information
for compilers running on Motorola and Intel, but not Sparc.  Are there
any?

Thanks.

-db-
-- 
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| David Blanchard      NOAA/NSSL & OU/CIMMS          Boulder, Colorado |
| blanch@ucar.edu      http://mrd3.mmm.ucar.edu/~dob/www/              |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: Lars Immisch 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Saving in Mac Format Question
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 15:17:15 +0200
Organization: Immisch, Becker & Partner
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chuck@cmich.slip.netcom.com wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to save .snd files into a Macintosh format (So I can open them
> in Sound Designer II).  I can do conversions (sample rate, etc), but even
> though the data is in the right format, the Mac doesn't recognize these as
> SDII files, so I can't open them on the Mac.
> 
> I've heard there is some type of "Mac Header" either in the file or
> perhaps in the directory entry itself.  Is there any way to duplicate this
> header info on the NeXT?  It seems kind of useless to save files in Mac
> format (on a Zip) only to have the Mac OS refuse to open them.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any advice!!

The "Mac Header" you talk about is called resource fork. You cannot
create it on the NeXT because it's part of the Mac File system.

Off the top of my head, there are three way to create the necessary Type
and Creator information: you use ResEdit, the "Get Info" menu (or
similar) and set Type and Creator to the values of a Sound Designer II
document you peeked at before.

Or you use AutoTyper, a very useful utility for exactly that. There you
can can clone Type and Creator from an existing document.

Or you copy the file to a DOS disk and tell PC exchange to map the
ending .snd to the desired application and have it set when you copy the
file from the DOS disk to the Mac.

This is probably a frequently asked question in the Mac forums.

Cheers,

Lars
-- 
mailto:immisch@pobox.com
http://pobox.com/~immisch

Yesterdays yellow yoyo can make you yawn today
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From: eskimo1@apple.com (Quinn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:39:47 -0700
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In article <5oegkq$sf@news-rocq.inria.fr>, fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr
(Francois Pottier) wrote:

>Now, on to the next question: what happens in a multi-threaded
>application? Suppose I have a function which creates an object,
>autoreleases it and returns it to its caller, and the function is
>executed in a secondary thread. When the function exits, the
>object's reference count is 0. Obviously, we don't want it to be
>collected right now, because the caller is going to retain it. So,
>the object must not be collected "at the end of the current event
>cycle", because that might happen at any moment. Rather, we need
>the object to live as long as the thread lives, because we can't
>determine when it will no longer be necessary, can we? So, my
>conclusion is, each thread needs to have its own NSReleasePool
>which has the same life duration as the thread; and objects
>allocated in a thread shall be released only when the thread dies.
>
>Is all this correct?  [...]

Pretty much.  Each thread *does* have its own autorelease pool.  When that
pool is released depends on the design of your thread.  If your thread is
modelled on some sort of periodic action, you could have your thread
release the autorelease the pool at the end of that periodic action, much
like the AppKit does.  This is most probably a good idea.  Alternatively,
releasing the autorelease pool at the end of the thread is the default
behaviour.

For more information on this, take a look at the class documentation for
NSConnection.

S+E

--
Quinn "The Eskimo!"            
Apple Developer Technical Support * Rhapsody Networking & Low-Level Stuff

  ps Good to have you on board Francois (-:
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From: hugob@tamtam.xs4all (Hugo Burm)
Subject: Re: Want to program in C++
Message-ID: 
Sender: hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl (Hugo Burm)
Reply-To: hugob@tamtam.xs4all (Hugo Burm)
Organization: datagram
References: 
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 10:26:29 GMT
Lines: 27

In article   
Adrian Silveanu  writes:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 	I have NS v3.2 and the developer kit running on an Intel
> computer. Would somebody please tell me how or where to find information
> to setup the developer kit so that I can program in C++?
> 
> 	Thanks in advance for any help!
> 
> 	Adrian
> 	silveanu@purdue.edu
> 

Go to the docs and find the Concepts manual. There is a chapter about  
programming in C++.
On my system the info is in:
"/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/Concepts/ObjectiveC/5_Programming/Prog 
ramming.rtfd". (If you did not install the manuals, you will find it on  
your NextStep Developer CD).

Or have a look at the mixed Obj-C/C++ demo:
"/NextDeveloper/Examples/AppKit/CalculatorLab++"

hugob@tamtam.xs4all.nl

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From: paul@oneclick.com (Paul Collins)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Saving in Mac Format Question
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 09:16:33 -0700
Organization: One Click Systems
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In article <1997Jun22.033358.340@cmich.slip.netcom.com>,
chuck@cmich.slip.netcom.com wrote:

> I'm trying to save .snd files into a Macintosh format (So I can open them  
> in Sound Designer II).  I can do conversions (sample rate, etc), but even  
> though the data is in the right format, the Mac doesn't recognize these as  
> SDII files, so I can't open them on the Mac.
> 
> I've heard there is some type of "Mac Header" either in the file or  
> perhaps in the directory entry itself.  Is there any way to duplicate this  
> header info on the NeXT?  It seems kind of useless to save files in Mac  
> format (on a Zip) only to have the Mac OS refuse to open them.


Chuck, it's not really a header. Mac files are stored in 2 or 3 pieces on
the hard disk (invisible to the user). This format can be stored on
foreign file systems (as AppleSingle or AppleDouble), but still has to be
converted when put on the Mac (everything in a foreign file gets put into
the Mac "data fork" when copying, unless you have a program translating
the file).

But I'm surprised that you're sound app can't open the file. Did you run
the program and use the Open command? (as opposed to double-clicking the
Finder, which doesn't know what to do with the file). Doesn't the
documentation cover this?

You could try a shareware sound program that can read files from other
systems. Look here:

http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive.html

Good luck!

-- Paul Collins, Owner/Developer            One Click Systems --
-- paul@oneclick.com                 http://www.oneclick.com/ --
-- Now shipping! ClickMail 1.1 Internet gateway for QuickMail --
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From: Fabien_Roy@no.spam.free.fdn.fr (Remove no.spam to reply)
Subject: Re: posix libraries
Message-ID: 
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Lines: 118

far@ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez) wrote:
> In article <5oc9g2$ca0@news.blkbox.com> bozack@blkbox.com writes:
>  >I noticed OPENSTEP 4.1 comes with no uname binary, so I thought I'd write 
>  >one.
>  >
>  >So I looked at the man page for the uname() system call and slapped out 
some 
>  >code that would theoretically work .. until I found that the uname() 
isn't 
>  >present in the libraries that are linked automatically.
>  >
>  >I also tried compiling tcl-7.6p2 (so I could compile eggdrop).  the tcl 
>  >library is archived fine, but tclsh fails during linkage since it can't 
find 
>  >mkfifo() .. fine, I say.  I didn't need tcslsh ANYWAY.  All I needed was 
the 
>  >library.  So I go to compile eggdrop, but it fails during linkage because 
>  >references to the mkifo() call are present in the library, but the call 
>  >itself is nowhere to be found.  I could theoretically remove all 
references 
>  >to mkfifo() in tcl (it's only referenced twice), but you never know when 
a 
>  >tcl app will pop up that needs to use fifos!
>  >
>  >Both of these (uname and mkfifo) are posix only system calls.  OPENSTEP 
4.1 
>  >doesn't come with a posix library, and simply feeding the compiler a 
-posix 
>  >flag isn't going to do much good.
>  >
>  >So where do I go from here to find these magic system calls?
>  >
>  >Thanks in advance!
>  >Dan
> 
> 
> For mkfifo you can just add the following to your code:
> 
> int mkfifo (const char *path, mode_t mode)
> {
> 	return mknod (path, mode | S_IFIFO, 0);
> }
> 
> You should be able to do the same for uname by extracting the
> necessary info using BSD system calls.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Felipe A. Rodriguez    #  Francesco Sforza became Duke of Milan from
> Agoura Hills, CA       #  being a private citizen because he was
>                        #  armed; his successors, since they avoided 
> far@ix.netcom.com      #  the inconveniences of arms, became private    
> (NeXTmail preferred)   #  citizens after having been dukes.
> (MIMEmail welcome)     #                     --Nicolo Machiavelli

FYI a shell equiv of uname

fabien@p133> cat /etc/uname
#!/bin/sh
#
# uname
#
# Author: Jim Vlcek, ByteWare Consulting (uunet!molly!vlcek) 3 Dec 1993
# Tweaked-By: Larry Blische (lkba!lkb@uunet.uu.net)
# Warped-By: Tom Hageman (tom@basil.icce.rug.nl) 8 Dec 1993
#
# An attempt to implement a SysV-ish "uname" under NeXTStep 3.x
#
# Options
#
# -s    Print the operating system name
# -n    Print the node name (essentially, the hostname)
# -v    Print the operating system version
# -r    Print the operating system release
# -p    Print the host machine's processor type
# -m    Print the machine hardware name
# -a    Print all the above information
#
# Non-SysV options
#
# -i    Print the host identification number (hostid)
#

case "$*" in
 "")    set - -s ;;
 *-a*)  set - -s -n -v -r -p -m ;;
esac

for arg
do
  case $arg in
   -s)  system="NEXTSTEP" ;;
   -n)  node="`uuname -l`" ;;
   -r)  release="`hostinfo | sed -n 's/.*NeXT Mach \([0-9\.]*\).*/\1/p'`" ;;
   -m)  mach="`hostinfo | sed -n 's/.*Processor type: \([^ ]*\).*/\1/p'`" ;;
   -p)  processor="`hostinfo | \
                   sed -n 's/.*Processor type: [^ ]* (\([^)]*\).*/\1/p'`" ;;
   -v)  version="`tail -1 /usr/lib/NextStep/software_version`" ;;
   -i)  hostid="`hostid`" ;;
   *)   echo $0: Usage: $0 [-asnvrpmi] >&2 ; exit 1 ;;
  esac
done

echo $system $node $version $release $processor $mach $hostid
fabien@p133> 

-- 
Fabien Roy
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Fabien_Roy@free.fdn.org (NextMail/MIME accepted)
Fabien Roy Consultant
NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP/EOF Consultant, SYBASE DBA
10 rue de la DEFENSE 93100 MONTREUIL, France 
Tel: 33 (0)1 45 28 32 23  Fax: 33 (0)1 48 55 09 90
GSM: 33 (0)6 60 46 36 83

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From: valerie@mizar (Moukdarath Valerie)
Subject: (PB) EOF NLS_LANG
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Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 12:08:09 GMT
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I work on NeXTstep 3.2 and EOF 1.1 and Oracle 7.1

My oracle NLS_LANG is american_america.we8dec

I don't know what NLS_LANG to use on EOF to read correctely my date

ex : "Boite de crme  t" in my database is not the same when I read it with EOF.


 may be replace by "Y" or "" it depends on what caracter set i use.

valrie
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From: silveanu@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Adrian Silveanu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: I want to program in C++ - Follow Up
Date: 23 Jun 1997 19:44:49 GMT
Organization: Purdue University Computing Center
Lines: 54
Message-ID: <5omjnh$jqv@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: expert.cc.purdue.edu

Hello,

        I posted earlier that I wanted to program in C++. I now realize that
I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that I tried to program in C++ on
NS and it didn't work.
        I am running NS v3.2 w/ Dev Kit on an Intel computer. This is the
simple code that I am trying to compile:

#include 

void main()
{
        cout << "Coolness!" << endl;
}

Those of you who program in C++ will agree that this code should work. I know
it works, because I have tried it on a SUN with a GNU C++ compiler and on OS/2 
with a GNU C++ compiler. What I can't figure out is how to get it to compile
on NS.
        Here are some details. I know that NS v3.2 can do C++. This info is
in the documentation /NextLibrary/Documentation/GNU-libg++/Intro.rtf and 
/NextLibrary/Documentation/NextDev/ReleaseNotes/C++.rtf.
I checked the compiler version:
        cc -v
        Reading specs from /lib/i386/specs
        NeXT Computer, Inc. version cc-216.obj~13, gcc version 2.2.2
And the version agrees with the documentation.
        The above C++ code I saved into a file called test.cc. In the
documentation it says that the compiler should figure out, from the file
extension, that it is a C++ file. It doesn't and this is what happens:
        cc test.cc
        test.cc:4: warning: return type for `main' changed to integer type
        ld: Undefined symbols:
        _endl__FR7ostream
        _cout
        ___ls__7ostreamPCc
        ___ls__7ostreamPFR7ostream_R7ostream

So I have no idea what is wrong. I tried using the -lstdcpp option on the
cc compiler like I do on GNU's OS/2 version of the compiler, but that option
doesn't exist.
        By now you may be thinking why not just program C++ in OS/2. 
Well, I can, but NS is getting digital dust (if that is possible). I use OS/2
for WP, Inet surfing, games, and programming. When I was programming in just C
I always used NS. I would like to continue using NS for programming in C++.
My programming, at the moment, is for my Computer Science courses, so it isn't 
NS specific. If any of you can help me get the cc compiler to compile C++
code I would greatly appreciate it!

        Thank you,

        Adrian Silveanu
        silveanu@purdue.edu

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From: ftouhi@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Majid Ftouhi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: LEDA for NextStep/Intel?
Date: 24 Jun 1997 00:15:26 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal
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Hi:
	I need to install LEDA for NextStep Intel. If someone had done the 
instalation, please tell me what i need for it.

	Thanks in advance

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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: I want to program in C++ - Follow Up
Date: 24 Jun 1997 07:50:11 GMT
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silveanu@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Adrian Silveanu) wrote:

> 
> #include 
> 
> void main()
> {
>         cout << "Coolness!" << endl;
> }
> 
> [ ... ]
>         The above C++ code I saved into a file called test.cc. In the
> documentation it says that the compiler should figure out, from the file
> extension, that it is a C++ file. It doesn't and this is what happens:
>         cc test.cc
>         test.cc:4: warning: return type for `main' changed to integer type
>         ld: Undefined symbols:
>         _endl__FR7ostream
>         _cout
>         ___ls__7ostreamPCc
>         ___ls__7ostreamPFR7ostream_R7ostream
> 
> So I have no idea what is wrong. I tried using the -lstdcpp option on the
> cc compiler like I do on GNU's OS/2 version of the compiler, but that option
> doesn't exist.

The compiler complains that you didn't start the training with the `hello world' sample
... sorry -- just kidding :-)) No, no, seems you lack the c++ library (What do you think `ld: 
Undefined symbols' mean, BTW ;-))

Well then, try

    localhost> cc -Wall test.cc -lg++ -o test++

If the compiler complains about a missing g++ lib. Go and install it. After all, Install gcc 
>= 2.5.8 if you want to do more that three-liners, install the lastest-you-can-find-gcc, if 
you want to be serious.

Regards, Ivo
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From: huerlima@ivt.baum.ethz.ch (Daniel Huerlimann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSTableView: Problem with Editing
Date: 24 Jun 1997 12:23:00 GMT
Organization: Swiss Federal Institute of Technology (ETHZ)
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I tried to end manually the editing of a tableView (NSTableView), but there 
was no success.  After one cell  has been edited, my tableView should be 
without a selection and without an edited cell. 

Has anyone an advice ?
Thanks .

Dani.

=============================================
| Dani Huerlimann                                          
| ETH Zurich
| Inst. of Transp., Traffic, Highway & Railway Engineering 
| CH - 8093 Zuerich, SWITZERLAND 
| Phone:  + 41 1 633 27 38
| Fax: + 41 1 633 10 57
| E-Mail: huerlimann@ivt.baum.ethz.ch
| WWW: http://www.ivt.baum.ethz.ch
=============================================

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From: gabriel@trigger.ali.bc.ca (Gabriel Musatescu)
Subject: Re: Identifying Directories with Objective C
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
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Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 16:31:21 GMT
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In article <5oeg2s$ka@news-rocq.inria.fr> fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr  
(Francois Pottier) writes:
> In article <5obrh6$pvv$1@sun579.rz.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>,
> Daniel Boehringer  wrote:
> 
> >if you have the misckit installed, though :-)
> 
> What is it and where can we find it? Is it portable across OPENSTEP
> platforms? (Right now I thought the only portable kits were basically
> FoundationKit and AppKit).
> 
> Thanks!
> 

MiscKit is a collection of useful objects that most of them you don't  
find in FoundationKit or AppKit. Check out http://www.misckit.com. It is  
functional on NeXTSTEP 3.3 and they just ported it to OS4.1 but as they  
say in the README file, the OS version is "useless". That's because the  
porting it's still not complete.

However, if you want to identify if a file is a directory from within  
OPENSTEP then you better use NSFileManager from the FoundationKit.

I hope this helps.


--
Gabriel Musatescu, A.L.I. Technologies, gabriel@ali.bc.ca

"Too much analysis leads to paralysis"
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: NSClassNames -> ??ClassNames
Date: 24 Jun 1997 18:53:11 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish) wrote:
> On 06/20/97, Kenneth C. Dyke wrote:
> >On 06/19/97, John Siracusa wrote:
> >>I was told by a former NeXT (now Apple) employee at
> >>PC Expo this week that all the class names in
> >>OpenStep like NSButton, etc.  are going to be renamed
> >>now that "NS" no longer has any bearing on the OS
> >>(Rhapsody).  My question is, what nomenclature will
> >>they use?  "CClassName" like Microsoft?  Class names
> >>based on libararies like the EOF classes seem to
> >>have?
> >

What I heard is that when accessing ObjC classes from Java, the prefixes 
won't be there because Java doesn't need prefixes (each package has a 
namespace).

This sounds more reasonable.

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 24 Jun 1997 19:01:49 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
> On 06/20/97, Francois Pottier wrote:
> >
> >Hi,
> >
> >I'm discovering OpenStep and have a question which I hope might be
> >answered here...
> >
> >I have read about OpenStep's convention for retaining and releasing
> >objects, using reference counts. When an object's reference count
> >drops to zero, it becomes eligible for collecting. The question is,
> >when will it be collected?
> >

> Here's the simple rules I use when explaining memory management under 
OpenStep 
> to someone:
> 
.
.
.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Don't forget this very important excerpt from the Foundation release notes. 
This should really be in the main docs for Foundation. I do agree with Sam 
that retain-release is unwieldy. Its works most of the time, but when it 
doesn't its a real bitch.

"More on Autoreleasing and Retaining 

The following statements are FALSE: 

 * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid for the scope of
   the current method. 

 * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the current
   autorelease pool is released. 

 * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the end of
   the current event loop. 

The Foundation's retain count mechanism operates via -retain and -release. A 
code fragment such as: 

	id object = [collection returnObject]; 

creates a reference (in object) to the returned object, but does not 
increment the retain count of object. If you don't let the system know about 
your reference, by incrementing the retain count with -retain, the system 
can't ensure that your reference remains valid for any length of time. In 
practice, you can get away with such "weak references" most of the time. But 
the safest approach formalizes your reference to the object: 

	id object = [[collection returnObject] retain]; 
	/* Do operations, some of which may be on 'object' */ 
	... 
	/* Don't need object any longer */ 
	[object release]; 
	object = nil; "

-- end of excerpt --

So in other words the only way to *guarantee* that you've got the object for 
the duration of your method (let alone the event loop!) is to retain every 
return value that you use further in the method. Of course, almost no one 
does this. We all gamble most of the time because it's too much of a pain to 
do otherwise.

I wish they would just add GC.

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: posix libraries
Date: 24 Jun 1997 21:00:20 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 38
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In-reply-to: far@ix.netcom.com's message of 20 Jun 1997 08:55:33 GMT

In article <5odgi5$8qd@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>,
	far@ix.netcom.com(Felipe A. Rodriguez) writes:
   In article <5oc9g2$ca0@news.blkbox.com> bozack@blkbox.com writes:

    >I noticed OPENSTEP 4.1 comes with no uname binary, so I thought
    >I'd write one.
    >
    >So I looked at the man page for the uname() system call and
    >slapped out some code that would theoretically work .. until I
    >found that the uname() isn't present in the libraries that are
    >linked automatically.
    >
    >I also tried compiling tcl-7.6p2 (so I could compile eggdrop).
    >the tcl library is archived fine, but tclsh fails during linkage
    >since it can't find mkfifo() .. fine, I say.  I didn't need
    >tcslsh ANYWAY.  All I needed was the library.

   For mkfifo you can just add the following to your code:

   int mkfifo (const char *path, mode_t mode)
   {
	   return mknod (path, mode | S_IFIFO, 0);
   }

   You should be able to do the same for uname by extracting the
   necessary info using BSD system calls.

The version of Tcl at my web site has a uname simulation.  Perhaps I
should apply the above mkfifo() call, too.  [For now, it's just
compiled out, as I've not run across many packages which _absolutely__
need fifo's.  Due to various imcompatibilities, most can optionally
use them.]

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

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From: "Jean R. Moreau, Jr." 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: tutorial
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:01:47 -0400
Organization: Harvard University
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Hi,

I'm using the tutorials meant for Openstep to help guide me through
NextStep Dev 3.2. I have successfully compiled the application, but when
I hit the convert button, CurrencyConverter just shuts down. Any
suggestions?

BTW, I'm running User 3.3 on a TurboStation

Jean Moreau



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From: jbf_see_sig@frazer.com (James B. Frazer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Fortran compiler
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 02:20:48 -0400
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In article <5ojkhl$lll$1@ncar.ucar.edu>, dob@mrd3.mmm.ucar.edu (David
Blanchard,,,) wrote:

> I've scanned the FAQs and looked through the newsgroups but cannot
> find the information I seek.  I'm interested in a Fortran compiler for
> NeXTstep v3.3 running on a Sun Sparcstation.  I've found information
> for compilers running on Motorola and Intel, but not Sparc.  Are there
> any?

I've had no problem on Moto using f2c from netlib. You have to get
the command line library flags right, or combine them. And of course,
it won't be as efficient as a commercial Fortran compiler, but it
gets you going. There's also a missing function or two, but they are
easy to work around.

Barney (delete that _see_sig to email me)
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From: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 25 Jun 1997 12:07:31 GMT
Organization: INRIA Rocquencourt, BP 105, 78153 Le Chesnay Cedex, France
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Cc: 

In article <5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
  wrote:

>Don't forget this very important excerpt from the Foundation release notes. 
>This should really be in the main docs for Foundation.

Thanks for posting. Can you tell me where these release notes are? I
didn't know they existed.

>The following statements are FALSE: 
>
> * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid for the scope of
>   the current method. 
>
> * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the current
>   autorelease pool is released. 
>
> * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the end of
>   the current event loop. 

What? I thought the second statement here was true! If an object has
been autoreleased, it will be actually dealloc'ed when its autorelease
pool dies, right? So it should be valid until the current autorelease
pool goes away. (I assume that the object's autorelease pool is the
current autorelease pool - I guess one could set things up so that
they're different, but it shouldn't happen in a reasonable program,
should it?)

I'm confused now.

>practice, you can get away with such "weak references" most of the time. But 
>the safest approach formalizes your reference to the object: 
>
>	id object = [[collection returnObject] retain]; 
>	/* Do operations, some of which may be on 'object' */ 

Hah, but this is no safer, since the object might be released
immediately after the returnObject message completes and before you
have time to call retain. (I agree the odds are smaller, but in theory
it's the same problem, and it will make the bug even harder to track).

Unless we are guaranteed that the object lives as long as the current
pool, and that the current pool won't die before the end of the method,
we're screwed. Calling retain like above won't help (again, in theory).

Can anyone shed some light on the subject?

>I wish they would just add GC.

So do I! (especially since I'm used to working with one, and it allows
things you wouldn't have thought possible).

--
Franois Pottier
Francois.Pottier@inria.fr
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~fpottier/
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From: "Frank Alviani" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help with TravelAdvisor Tutorial? (Prelude2Rhapsody)
Date: 25 Jun 97 11:47:55 -0500
Organization: Netcom
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Hello all,

Warning: I'm an experienced Mac programmer, but a novice OS programmer, so
this may be an FAQ...

I am working through the Travel Advisor tutorial in the Prelude to Rhapsody
package, and cannot get the tabbing order to function correctly, even
though examining the project with both the Inspector panel and the
list-view of the NIB window show everything is connected correctly. It
fails both in the test interface mode and during actual execution.It seems
to be tabbing in (approximately) spatial order rather than in the linked
order.

What is the secret to having the next field linkages work correctly?

In addition to the documentation that came with the system, are there other
sources for hints about debugging techniques?

Thanks in advance,

Frank Alviani



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From: oloft@hegel1.cs.chalmers.se.cs.chalmers.se (Olof Torgersson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help Needed: Threads in OPENSTEP
Date: 25 Jun 1997 18:46:51 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology
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Hi,

I need some help on threads in OPENSTEP (Mach and NT).

I am about to write an application where the main should provide an interface
to compose and edit querys to an evaluator running in its own thread.

The user of the application should be able to provide a query to the 
evaluator, get the answer from the evaluator, interrupt the evaluator, and 
ask the evaluator for its current state.

All kinds of hints and examples on how this should be done would be greatly
appreciated

Olof Torgersson
---


Olof Torgersson			                oloft@cs.chalmers.se
Department of Computing Science                 +46 31 772 54 06
Gteborg University & Chalmers University of Technology
S-412 96 GTEBORG, SWEDEN
http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~oloft/
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From: thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Rhapsody UI, Lets go translucent
Followup-To: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Date: 26 Jun 1997 00:55:02 GMT
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I agree that this is a pretty darn good idea.
There is a performance hit in rendering transparently and as well a problem
with some implementations of transparency in 256 color systems.

Still it's probably worth doing.

Hey has anyone ever made a round window in NeXTStep/Rhapsody?
It seems perfectly doable but I never got around to actually implementing it.
My only question is can you open a postscript context and either _not_ associate
a color with the context so that parts of it are clear or set the backing
color to be a transparent color?

I did an IB palette suite that rendered themselvs as 20% transparent
so that you could see what was behind them in IB.  That made things
very convenient in terms of laying out app interfaces.

If any one has and wants to talk about it, please post a thread in 
comp.sys.next.programmer!

Thomas
----


Dennis (dennis.scp@multiweb.nl) wrote:
: John Kheit  wrote:

: > > > Then I could hide the top of the window off the edge of the
: > > > screen,
: > 
: > >   Which is exactly what you're doing.
: > 
: > No it's not, your hiding it under the menu bar, so you're getting
: > say 16 extra pixels...but you could hide the window off the edge
: > of the screen, which would give you 16 extra pixels plus the 21
: > extra pixels of the menubar.  The menubar takes up space, period.

: Here is an idea. Let's make the menubar and the menu's translucent, This
: way you can clearly see trough it and still read it. As you move the
: pointer over the menubar it becomes less translucent so you can clearly
: read it (hey MetaTools does it quite nice).

: Menu's should also be a bit translucent so you can see what is going on
: underneeth them (gues, read, remember what your doing)

--
               <>+<>                 //////      __v__        __\/__
   `\|||/      /---\     """""""    | _ - |     (_____)   .  / ^  _ \  .
    (q p)     | o o |   <^-@-@-^>  (| o O |)   .( O O ),  |\| (o)(o) |/|
_ooO_<_>_Ooo_ooO_U_Ooo_ooO__v__Ooo_ooO_u_Ooo_ooO__(_)__Ooa__oOO_()_OOo___
[_____}_____!____.}_____{_____|_____}_____i____.}_____!_____{_____}_____]
__.}____.|_____{_____!____.}_____|_____{.____}_____|_____}_____|_____!___
[_____{_____}_____|_____}_____i_____}_____|_____}_____i_____{_____}_____]
Thomas Poff
1308 Michele Ct.
Rohnert Park, CA  94928
(707)664-1867

To see some interesting software for the Newton, please try:

http://www.cs.sonoma.edu/Newton
ftp://ftp.cs.sonoma.edu/pub/Newton

####################################################################
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From: klui@cup.hp.com (Ken Lui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX remote drawing (Was Re: GX OOP class
Date: 18 Jun 1997 18:56:41 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5o9b19$qi7$1@hpax.cup.hp.com>
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>There is a LOT of stuff you can do with GX.

I wonder if all this functionality cause GX to be slower than
something like DPS. Does anyone out there have benchmarks? Maybe
PS with its interpreted nature and GX's large featureset overhead
would come out the same.

Maintenance, codewise, would be more difficult because of excess
functionality.


Ken
-- 
Ken Lui, klui@cup.hp.com          19111 Pruneridge Avenue  M/S 44UR
Enterprise Systems Division       Cupertino, CA  95014-0795     USA
Open Warehouse Team               1.408.447.3230 FAX 1.408.447.1053
Views within this message may not be those of the Hewlett-Packard Company
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From: Al Sheehan 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: WOApps & Sessions
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:35:58 +0100
Organization: Cambridige Technology Partners
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Hi all,

I'm doing a project in which there are a number of WOApp's. Now, form
the login screen you choose which WOApp you want to start.
I am wondering is there a way of forcing the session number to be what
ever one you generate, and is there a way  that the WOApp's
can capture this session number before fully launching, in order to
authenticate.
Any ideas, thoughts or Six foot blondes looking for a good time ??

Al ...

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From: neil@pobox.com (Neil Rhodes)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Help with TravelAdvisor Tutorial? (Prelude2Rhapsody)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:49:00 -0700
Organization: Calliope Enterprises, Inc.
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In article , "Frank Alviani"
 wrote:

>
>I am working through the Travel Advisor tutorial in the Prelude to Rhapsody
>package, and cannot get the tabbing order to function correctly, even
>though examining the project with both the Inspector panel and the
>list-view of the NIB window show everything is connected correctly. It
>fails both in the test interface mode and during actual execution.It seems
>to be tabbing in (approximately) spatial order rather than in the linked
>order.
>
>What is the secret to having the next field linkages work correctly?
>
>In addition to the documentation that came with the system, are there other
>sources for hints about debugging techniques?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>Frank Alviani

A FAQ is maintained on Rhapsody development issues at:



Currently, the one and only question is the one you raise.

The simple answer is "You need to connect the "initialFirstResponder"
outlet from your Window 
to the first field that you want selected."

Apparently the documentation is out of date.

-- 
Neil Rhodes                             Author of Programming for the Newton          
neil@pobox.com                               Newton Programming and Training
Newton Essentials class June 9-13 
####################################################################
From: "Jim L. Morris" 
Subject: Openings  Florida/Alabama
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: SILCO Software Technology,Inc
Message-ID: <01bc8243$83a0bb60$2bf58bd0@ws03.silcoinc.com>
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Date: 26 Jun 97 15:17:48 GMT
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Sorry to bother you guys, but I wanted to pass a message along to your user
group.

A client of ours located in Birmingham, Alabama has several permanent
openings for Smalltalk Developers. Company is a solutions
provider/integrator that specializes in Object-Oriented Systems. Salary is
up to 80K plus full benefits. Basic requirements are a minimum of 1 year of
Smalltalk experience. H-1 Visa candidates are welcome to apply!!!!!! If
someone is not interested in relocating to Birmingham, then they will
consider paying for your living expenses in Birmingham Mon-Fri and
commuting expenses on the weekends back to Atlanta. 

We also have openings in Tampa, Florida for Object-Oriented Architects &
Developers experienced in some of the following skills: Visual C++, JAVA,
CORBA, Versant, ORBIX, BONGO, Rational Rose, ObjectStore, etc Salaries
50K-150K based on experience. Feel free to pass my name and number around
to anyone who might be interested. 


Thanks,

Jim Morris
SILCO Software Technology, Inc.
813-939-0603
888-745-2646 (Toll Free)
813-939-0703 (Fax)
jmorris@silcoinc.com


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From: dix.lorenz@hamburg.netsurf.de (Dix Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep/NT problem
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:16:58 +0200
Organization: EDV - Beratung
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Hi,
I have just received my Prelude to Rhapsody and installed OpenStep
Enterprise for NT. That works and I can compile and run "pure" Obj-C
programs. When I try to mix C++ into it, it doesn't. The problem is in
one of the systemheaders: 

/Next/NextLibrary/FrameWorks/System.framework/Headers/redist/NEW.H

the compiler complains in the line which says:
#include 

rightly so, because it doesn't exist. where can i get it and what went
wrong in the first place? BTW: just deleting the line doesn't help...
:-(

As it is a MS-file, I also tried replacing it with new.h from my
VC++-package, but that didn't work either....

Greetings,
Dix
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From: asdljf@;asldjf.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Hot Young Cock Sucking Teens *cock.jpg
Date: 26 Jun 1997 18:26:49 GMT
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From: fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr
Subject: [Q]Character conversion
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Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 13:59:35 GMT
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	I'm working with EOF1.1 on NeXT3.3 and I've a character set problem. In the EOF 
release notes they say you've got to implement a subclass of NSString which will perform 
the necessary conversion to and from the NextEncoding.
	Has anybody ever made it ?
	I manage to read or insert the data with my subclass. But I am in big troubles for the 
update.
	Do you have some examples or tips?
Thanks for help. 
--
---------------------------------------
				
			
		 |				  
		O_O				 
						
					 |
					O_O
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Fred Galot								
fgalot@x-lan.alienor.fr
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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OS4.x, pulldown menus, and FirstResponder
Date: 26 Jun 1997 23:00:32 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 21
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: doubleu.com

When I connect a pulldown menu's entry to First Responder, it doesn't
call the appropriate action.  Instead, I get a console message about
"[NSPopupButton methodName:]: selector not recognized".  Fun, fun.

I've already tried -setRefusesFirstResponder:, which works well for
all of the other buttons on the toolbar.  [Yes, toolbar, sigh.]  I can
think of about three reasons for how this is happening in the AppKit,
but I can't think of a reason which allows for me to _fix_ it.

For now, I've just hardwired the connections.  That should_ suffice
for now.  But long-term, that precludes leveraging off the
firstResponder chain.  The solution I know will work but am leery of
is to create a throw-away object with the actions necessary, and have
it forward them to the appropriate responder chain.  But that's an
_ugly_ solution (this is Objective-C, _not_ C++!).

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

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From: jayg@fuga.com (J. Goyal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: JOBS: program managers/UI leads -- handheld device - fuga corp.
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 16:08:09 +1000
Organization: Stanford University
Lines: 49
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Keywords: prgram managers, UI, software
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.sysadmin:27279 comp.sys.next.programmer:25084

Fuga Corporation (www.fuga.com), a  Palo-Alto startup in consumer products,
is looking for   Software Engineers. Working with NexT/UNIX is a plus.
If you have the following credentials, please contact 
Jay at jayg@fuga.com or 415 691 9424.


see link-->  www.fuga.com\www\jobs.html

Job Role 1 - Program Manager (Software Engineering)

Requires Project Leadership. Responsible for the entire product-line. 
Requirements/Roles (Experience in shipped "consumer retail" products a
     plus) 
          -Product Architect (includes product strategy; prioritizing
          features/enhancements) 
          -Leading debugging sessions 
          -Defining processes (Design, Code reviews, Doc. guidelines) 
          -Release Coordination (Development,Testing, Bug Tracking, Backups) 
          -C programming (solid experience required) 
          -BS or MS. 


Job Roles 2 & 3 - User Interface Project Leads
     (Software Engineering)

Should have the potential to take on major responsibility, especially
project leadership (includes defining product architecture & leading
debugging/testing sessions) for a product-line. 

     Requirements (Experience in shipped "consumer retail" products a plus) 
          -C programming (LINUX/UNIX or DOS; solid experience) 
          -UI experience (a plus) 
          -BS or MS. 

These are very important job roles where the engineer is involved
in programming & testing & being an integral part of a "start-up team" to
release a globally available mass consumer product. 
The product, an exciting consumer handheld device, will be available in
retail stores (circuit city, office depot, fry's).

You get an opportunity to exercise creativity and to apply technology such
that it solves problems of an everyday mass consumer.

We are looking for exceptionally bright and driven people.
Company offers very attractive compensation and stock-options. 

**********  End of Message ***************** 


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From: Jason
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Don't read this message!
Date: 27 Jun 1997 02:43:17 GMT
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X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Jun 26  9:43:17 PM CDT 1997

CALLING ALL LITERARY MINDS!

I am trying to compose a coffee table book on the topic of EXCUSES. To add an original flavor to my project
I am attempting to derive my research entirely from people I come in contact with on the Net.
If you have, or know of, any interesting, unique, or even bizarre excuses, and would like to participate in this experiment 
in creative literature, please reply to this message with your excuse. Any excuse that is used in the published version will 
receive full literary credit. Thank you in advance for helping a fellow netizen.
Long live free speech!

 
                                                                 Sincerely yours,

 Jason

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From: "Eric K. Ringger" 
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "17 Jun 1997 06:08:29 GMT."
             <5o59kt$brt$1@leonie.object-factory.com> 
Message-ID: <199706270154.VAA21741@milli.cs.rochester.edu>
Sender: ringger@cs.rochester.edu (Eric K. Ringger)
Cc: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: University of Rochester Computer Science Dept
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 21:54:11 -0400
Lines: 59

Somebody asked:
> Also, if I wish to make the main code say a Perl script or csh
> script does Open Step support the possibility and if it does, how
> does it know which execution environment to start?

David Evans hoped:
> That should work fine, provided your script starts with the
> "#!/bin/csh" (or whatever) magic cookie.  The kernel understands
> such things.  However, the utility of this inside an app wrapper is
> questionable, since stdout will go to the console and there's no
> stdin (as far as I know).

Christopher Wolf replied:
> I thought it would work fine too -- until I tried it.  It didn't
> work under NeXTSTEP 3.3 for me.

Dirk Olmes wrote:
> It never worked for me. Neither does it in 4.1. If I double click
> the "app" the console shows
>
> Jun 17 08:06:30 Workspace: Cannot exec /tmp/foo.app: (not a valid program)
[...]
> I would have loved to have such a scripted app.

As far as I can tell, Workspace.app expects a true Mach-O format
executable file with the right name to inhabit the app wrapper.
Workspace actually examines the segments of that Mach-O and finds the
app icon, the icons and extensions for supported document types,
services, etc. when it builds its database at login time.  A Perl
script (or any other script) just doesn't fit the bill, unfortunately.

It would certainly seem feasible (for Apple) to change this: *all*
resources could live outside the executable (but still within the app
wrapper) as separate files, as most resources do nowadays.  For
example, even now the declaration of services provided by the app
doesn't have to be stored in the Mach-O but can be saved in the app
wrapper as a separate file.  I'm not on my NeXTstation right now, so I
can't get at the exact name of that file -- look in Webster.app to see
an example.  The same could be done for the icons, document
extensions, etc.  Perhaps that's already possible for *every* resource
and I just haven't noticed.

Right now, I suppose you could build a simple app that has no other
purpose but to fork(2), exec(2) the desired script, and perhaps even
pass a few arguments on the sly to the script (e.g., the -NXOpen
args).  That simple app would itself be a Mach-O with icon, etc.  Does
this fill the bill of the person who originally posed the question?
If such a thing exists, I'd like to try it out.  If this wouldn't
work, I'd be interested in hearing the reasons.

Have fun.
--Eric

---
Eric K. Ringger              mailto:ringger@cs.rochester.edu
Dept. of Computer Science    Office: +1-716-275-0922; Lab: +1-716-275-1083
University of Rochester      Fax: +1-716-461-2018
Rochester, NY 14627-0226     http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/ringger/
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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Shipping Frameworks
Date: 27 Jun 1997 05:41:40 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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I have an app that I'd like to distribute but it uses a number
of frameworks which I don't want the end user to have to install.

Is there a way to statically link selected frameworks or to 
stick them in the app wrapper like bundles?

-- 
Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
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From: erich@powerwareintl.com (Eric Harley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: NeXT Newbie Questions
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 22:51:15 -0800
Organization: EdgeMedia Networks
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Hello NeXT Developers,
I was wondering if anybody out there could answer some questions for me.

1) If I develop a program under OpenStep for Mach on Intel, can I run that
application on Windows NT/95 without installing OpenStep on the Windows
machine?
2) Does anybody know about an OpenStep API for the Macintosh? I dont mean
Rhapsody.
3) Will OpenStep 4.2 run on a Turbo Slab?

Thanks alot for any and all help!
erich@powerwareintl.com
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From: ulkjhlk@poikjge.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: New Service for your "Pager"......
Date: 27 Jun 1997 09:03:51 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <5ovvln$h4k@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.147.201.236


ONLY AVAILABLE IN THE: 
U.S.A, VIRGIN ISLANDS, AND PUERTO RICO CANADA*


BE SURE TO GO TO OUR SITE AND CHECK OUT OUR FREE TRIAL.


Call everyone and tell them to throw away all of your old home, office, fax, 
pager, voice-mail, and cellular numbers and give them your New "Virtual Office" 
800/888 number! The only number any one will ever need.

Are you tired of giving out all of your different phone numbers to everyone?
Wouldnt it be nice to be able to give everyone just ONE phone number that
will find you anywhere you are? Even out of town, or in a restaurant, or even 
on the golf course.

Now you can.

We have the answer to all your communication needs. Its called the "Virtual Office".

And this new service is loaded. It comes with features like:

An automated Call Attendant, Live Call Connect (in real time), Fax Sending, Fax Receiving, 
Even without a fax machine! E-Mail Notification and Delivery, Without a PC!, 
Outbound calling, Low Cost Long Distance Service, Inbound/Outbound 800/888
Number, Worldwide Call Transfer, Call Forwarding, Call Screening, Full Service Voice
Mail, Nation Wide Pager Notification, Conference Calling, Speed Dialing, Auto Dial,
Auto Messaging, Temporary Greeting, Unavailable Greeting, Password Protection,
Pager Notification, and No Equipment or Software to buy, "Ever".     
      
Priced from $9.95* per month, Plus 10.9 cents per minute per event.

Thats less than one phone line would cost per month.

For more information please visit our web site:
http://www.mynumber.com

* Based on our best priced plan.
* Canada has a higher per minute rate.      




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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
From: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert)
Sender: ulkjhlk@poikjge.com
Message-ID: 
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Control: cancel <5ovvln$h4k@mtinsc04.worldnet.att.net>
Organization: Usenet Canal Historique
Approved: bofh@keltia.freenix.fr
Date: 27 Jun 1997 09:03:51 GMT
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ECP/EMP aka SPAM or pyramidal scheme (MMF) cancelled by bofh@keltia.freenix.fr.
It may also be an image too small for newsbot to be activated.
See report in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

Date: Fri Jun 27 11:53:52 1997

Original subject was:
New Service for your "Pager"......

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From: beauvois@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Accessing web page data
Date: 27 Jun 1997 10:51:54 GMT
Organization: University of Tennessee
Lines: 16
Message-ID: 
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.3.5


 I'm working on an app and would like to include a feature that would
access a web site and strip it of some of its available data for use in
updating parts of my app. Here's an example: 

 I'd like my app to periodically check with a site that maintains a local
weather report, grab this weather data (text/images) and have use it as a
reference.

 I have a few ideas on how to do this, but would greatly welcome any others
and/or known existing examples of anything similar.


Thanks for your help --

CB
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From: Barry Leslie 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: exeutable path name from file viewer on OIpenStep 4.2
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:42:10 +0200
Organization: snap.de
Message-ID: <33B3A6FD.6727@snap.de>
Reply-To: Barry.Leslie@snap.de
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Can any body help me or direct me to where I can find help for the
following problem.

I have a standard unix type executable that when started looks for
certain files in its current directory. I would like this application to
work correctly when started from the File Viewer but to do this it needs
to know the location of the executable. Normally this is easy because
you can use the current working directory and the path name used to
execute the file from argv[0]. But when started from the File Viewer the
current directory is always the HOME directory and the full path name is
not in 
argv[0].

Someone told me this is a known problem and that there is a way to get
around it put they didn't know what it was.

The executable can be moved around or there may be multiple copies of it
on the machine so storing the installation info some where will not
work.

Thanks for your time,

Barry
-- 
Barry Leslie
Software Engineer
SNAP Innovation
Grosse Elbstrasse 39
22767 Hamburg
Germany

E-mail barry.leslie@snap.de
Phone 040/306 36 403
Fax   040/306 36 333
http://www.snap.de
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From: rtr@user.transit.ru (transit shell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: CVS and .nib files
Date: 27 Jun 1997 13:44:57 GMT
Organization: Transit Newsgate
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:25092 comp.sys.next.software:30118

Hi,

Could anybody suggest me how to wrap/unwrap .nib files to store them into cvs
repository?

Thank you in advance.

Vladimir
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From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
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Reply-To: allan@cetus.ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Cc: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr, software
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Organization: ALI Technologies
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:43:22 GMT
References: <5oegkq$sf@news-rocq.inria.fr> <5ofmco$2jr$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> 
	<5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu> <5or1m3$1pr@news-rocq.inria.fr> 
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.1 Beta(i)
Lines: 135

In comp.sys.next.programmer Francois Pottier wrote:
> In article <5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
>   wrote:
> > ...
> >The following statements are FALSE: 
> >
> > * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid for the scope of
> >   the current method. 
> >
> > * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the current
> >   autorelease pool is released. 
> >
> > * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the end of
> >   the current event loop. 
> 
> What? I thought the second statement here was true! If an object has
> been autoreleased, it will be actually dealloc'ed when its autorelease
> pool dies, right? So it should be valid until the current autorelease
> pool goes away. (I assume that the object's autorelease pool is the
> current autorelease pool - I guess one could set things up so that
> they're different, but it shouldn't happen in a reasonable program,
> should it?)

The reason is that *release* not *autorelease* might be used
within the code which is returning the object.

For example say I have a class Randomizer with the following
methods:

@implementation Randomizer

- number
{
	return myNumber;
}

- (void)rollTheBones
{
	// Release the old number and get a new one.
	[myNumber release];
	myNumber = [[NSNumber numberWithInt:random_func()] retain];
}

@end

Now say that you have code somewhere else which does this:

	NSNumber
		*firstRoll,
		*secondRoll;

	[myRandomizer rollTheBones];
	firstRoll = [myRandomizer number];
	[myRandomizer rollTheBones];
	secondRoll = [myRandomizer number];
	printf( "Roll 1 = %d, Roll 2 = %d", 
		 [firstRoll intValue], [secondRoll intValue] );

This code will crash in the printf statement under most circumstances
due to the fact that the Randomizer class uses release not autorelease
in its rollTheBones method.  The object pointed to by firstRoll
will be deallocated during the second call to rollTheBones unless
some object other than aRandomizer has retained it.

That is why changing the calling code to:

	NSNumber
		*firstRoll,
		*secondRoll;

	[myRandomizer rollTheBones];
	firstRoll = [[myRandomizer number] retain];
	[myRandomizer rollTheBones];
	secondRoll = [[myRandomizer number] retain];
	printf( "Roll 1 = %d, Roll 2 = %d", 
		 [firstRoll intValue], [secondRoll intValue] );
	[firstRoll release];
	[secondRoll release];

will fix the problem.  You could also modify the Randomizer class
to use autorelease instead of release, but you have no guarantee
that this might not be changed in the future.  Furthermore,
if you do not have source to the Randomizer class (eg. if it
were a NeXT or 3rd party library) you don't have that option.

Thus a returned object is safe for immediate use, but may legally
be deallocated by subsequent actions.  In complex systems it may
not be obvious what actions may cause deallocation (eg. object A
calls object B to get object C, object A then calls object D which
calls object B and causes the release of object C, causing C to be
deallocated, A calls object C ... crash).  Therefore, if you are
retaining a reference to the object (even temporarily) you should
retain it during your use.

Note that we could have also written the calling code to
use autorelease instead of release, eg.

	NSNumber
		*firstRoll,
		*secondRoll;

	[myRandomizer rollTheBones];
	firstRoll = [[[myRandomizer number] retain] autorelease];
	[myRandomizer rollTheBones];
	secondRoll = [[[myRandomizer number] retain] autorelease];
	printf( "Roll 1 = %d, Roll 2 = %d", 
		 [firstRoll intValue], [secondRoll intValue] );

This is useful if there are a number of distinct exit points
from the routine and we don't want to have to remember to
call the release methods of your temporary objects at each
juncture.

Using autorelease has the downside that your temporary objects
may hang around in the current autorelease pool longer than absolutely
necessary, thus causing unnecessary memory bloat.  This can usually
be managed through the strategic use of local autorelease pools,
however.

There are also certain situations where it makes sense to use copy
instead of simply retaining the returned object.  For  example if
an object returns an NSString, you actually have no guarantee that
it isn't really an instance of the NSMutableString subclass and
thus may be changed later on without your knowledge.  If your code
depends on the returned object being immutable, then you should use
the copy method to ensure that you have your own copy.  If the
object is an immutable object it will implement the copy method as
a simple call to retain anyhow, so it has no extra memory overhead.

--
Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan        e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca
ALI Technologies                        Voice: 604.821.6317
Richmond, Canada                        Fax:   604.279.5468
                       * NeXT and MIME mail welcome *

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From: Laurent Vinet 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep 4.2 debugging ? and  NEXTIME ?
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:28:49 +0200
Organization: INA - France
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <33B3CE21.41C6@ina.fr>
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From a new programmer with 4.2 

2 questions :

- where is the browser of the class under gdb 
(like under the 3.3 "Gdb..." menu of edit) ?

- how I can make a NSImage of the current frame of a NTMovieDocument
(how build a NSBitmapImageRep) ? 
	

Any ideas?

-- 
                   Laurent VINET
         INA                Phone (33) 01.49.83.22.63            
  4 avenue de l'Europe      Fax   (33) 01.49.83.25.82
94366 Bry sur Marne Cedex      Mailto:vinet@ina.fr
        France        http://www.ina.fr/People/Laurent.VINET/
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] Main executable in application folder
Date: 27 Jun 1997 17:49:03 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 31
Message-ID: <5p0uef$7f4$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
References: <199706270154.VAA21741@milli.cs.rochester.edu>
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In-Reply-To: <199706270154.VAA21741@milli.cs.rochester.edu>
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

>Christopher Wolf replied:
>> I thought it would work fine too -- until I tried it.  It didn't
>> work under NeXTSTEP 3.3 for me.
>
>Right now, I suppose you could build a simple app that has no other
>purpose but to fork(2), exec(2) the desired script, and perhaps even
>pass a few arguments on the sly to the script (e.g., the -NXOpen
>args).  That simple app would itself be a Mach-O with icon, etc.  Does
>this fill the bill of the person who originally posed the question?
>If such a thing exists, I'd like to try it out.  If this wouldn't
>work, I'd be interested in hearing the reasons.

This works fine - I actually resorted to doing this.   The requirement was that 
the customer wanted a distinct icon to launch a script.  So I built an app 
(including the icon) which had basically one line of code which was 
system("scriptname") to launch a script which lived within the app wrapper.  An 
awful kludge but it worked just fine.

- Chris



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 27 Jun 1997 17:00:45 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 62
Message-ID: 
References: <5oegkq$sf@news-rocq.inria.fr> <5ofmco$2jr$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
	<5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: doubleu.com
In-reply-to: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com's message of 24 Jun 1997 19:01:49 GMT

In article <5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
	Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com writes:

   Don't forget this very important excerpt from the Foundation
   release notes.  This should really be in the main docs for
   Foundation. I do agree with Sam that retain-release is unwieldy.
   Its works most of the time, but when it doesn't its a real bitch.

   "More on Autoreleasing and Retaining 

   The following statements are FALSE: 

    * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid for the scope of
      the current method. 

    * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the current
      autorelease pool is released. 

    * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the end of
      the current event loop. 

   So in other words the only way to *guarantee* that you've got the
   object for the duration of your method (let alone the event loop!)
   is to retain every return value that you use further in the method.
   Of course, almost no one does this. We all gamble most of the time
   because it's too much of a pain to do otherwise.

It's easier to just do:

   id object = [[collection returnObject] autorelease];

That way the object _will_ exist for the scope of the current method
(unless you're doing odd autorelease pool stuff).

Even cooler, say you have a -dealloc method like:

    -(void)dealloc
    {
        [oneObject release];
        [otherObject release];
        [super dealloc];
    }

You can change the -release calls to -autorelease, and they will still
be released during the current pool's release.  On the one hand, this
means that objects might live longer than otherwise (for instance, if
the -dealloc is from a non-autorelease -release call), on the other
hand it means that you can continue to reference the object throughout
the -dealloc method with no averse consequences.

Of course, if you generally use -autorelease instead of -release, the
object's longer lifespan isn't really a problem, because it will
always be released soon after the owner was deallocated.  Personally,
I tend to use -retain only when I want to take ownership of an object
(put it in an instance variable), and -autorelease to release
ownership, rather than -release.

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 27 Jun 1997 17:00:43 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References: <5oegkq$sf@news-rocq.inria.fr> <5ofmco$2jr$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
	<5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: doubleu.com
In-reply-to: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com's message of 24 Jun 1997 19:01:49 GMT

In article <5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>,
	Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com writes:

   Don't forget this very important excerpt from the Foundation
   release notes.  This should really be in the main docs for
   Foundation. I do agree with Sam that retain-release is unwieldy.
   Its works most of the time, but when it doesn't its a real bitch.

   "More on Autoreleasing and Retaining 

   The following statements are FALSE: 

    * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid for the scope of
      the current method. 

    * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the current
      autorelease pool is released. 

    * Returned objects are guaranteed to be valid until the end of
      the current event loop. 

   So in other words the only way to *guarantee* that you've got the
   object for the duration of your method (let alone the event loop!)
   is to retain every return value that you use further in the method.
   Of course, almost no one does this. We all gamble most of the time
   because it's too much of a pain to do otherwise.

It's easier to just do:

   id object = [[collection returnObject] autorelease];

That way the object _will_ exist for the scope of the current method
(unless you're doing odd autorelease pool stuff).

Even cooler, say you have a -dealloc method like:

    -(void)dealloc
    {
        [oneObject release];
        [otherObject release];
        [super dealloc];
    }

You can change the -release calls to -autorelease, and they will still
be released during the current pool's release.  On the one hand, this
means that objects might live longer than otherwise (for instance, if
the -dealloc is from a non-autorelease -release call), on the other
hand it means that you can continue to reference the object throughout
the -dealloc method with no averse consequences.

Of course, if you generally use -autorelease instead of -release, the
object's longer lifespan isn't really a problem, because it will
always be released soon after the owner was deallocated.

Later,
--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

####################################################################
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Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 13:53:04 -0600
From: idis-info@idiscorp.com
Subject: Re: OS/NT with Citrix/WinFrame
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <867436811.27373@dejanews.com>
Organization: Deja News Usenet Posting Service
To: gtupar@ctp.com
References: <5ols03$agj$1@concorde.ctp.com>
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Yup! We sell(distribution), install (for Turnkey solutions) and support
Citrix WinFrame, as well as use it here in our shop.  The standard answer
to the "Will WinFrame support a {specific} application?" is - if the app
works on NT 3.51 it will work on WinFrame.  After that come the Caveats:
1) If the app is a DOS app and the client machines (Citrix is Thin
Client, remote control) are Windows, you may not get a full screen window
when running that app across Citrix. 2) A DOS application that uses
keyboard polling may use up the entire resources of your WinFrame machine
for one or two users (Citrix comes with a 15 user base liscense).  3)  If
the App uses graphics other than standad windows GUI format (like FoxPro
for Windows) it may be excruciatingly slow across Citrix.  Other than
that I am unaware of any bugabears with WinFrame.  If you have more
questions or need any help, email us at idis-info@idiscorp.com or call us
at 1-800-232-5322

In article <5ols03$agj$1@concorde.ctp.com>,
  gtupar@ctp.com wrote:
>
> Hey Folks!
>
> The client asked us if our system will work on top of NT product, called
> WinFrame (from Citrix). It seams to provide a sort of functionality similar to

> NXHosing (I was told so...).
>
> Any ideas, rumors, experience?
>
> Thanks
>
> G.T.
>
> --
> -------
>  /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
> / /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street
> \  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
>  \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
>        Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com

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From: a;dslfj@a;slkdf.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Hot New Teenage Site young4.jpg
Date: 27 Jun 1997 10:02:06 GMT
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Come visit the hottest new sex site on the internet Sexy-Girls  

Are you ready to visit the hottest teen slut wonderland? 

The come visit..   http://www.sexy-girls.com






All Models represented on Sexy-Girls are 18 years of age or older.

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From: thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Developer UI
Date: 27 Jun 1997 18:56:16 GMT
Organization: Information Resources and Technology
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Perhaps I can't really whine too much about it but I am wondering
if anyone misses the simpler, arguably more elegant version of Project
Builder?

It would be great if we could eventually get it back, either via Apple
or a third-party development toolmaker.  

The old environment was simple and people did used to complain about that
but the flipside was that it used very little screen real-estate and was
in _very_ easy to use.

Thomas

--
               <>+<>                 //////      __v__        __\/__
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    (q p)     | o o |   <^-@-@-^>  (| o O |)   .( O O ),  |\| (o)(o) |/|
_ooO_<_>_Ooo_ooO_U_Ooo_ooO__v__Ooo_ooO_u_Ooo_ooO__(_)__Ooa__oOO_()_OOo___
[_____}_____!____.}_____{_____|_____}_____i____.}_____!_____{_____}_____]
__.}____.|_____{_____!____.}_____|_____{.____}_____|_____}_____|_____!___
[_____{_____}_____|_____}_____i_____}_____|_____}_____i_____{_____}_____]
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From: Matthew_Seaman@plsys.co.uk (Matthew Seaman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NeXT Newbie Questions
Date: 27 Jun 1997 12:55:40 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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In  Eric Harley 
wrote:
> Hello NeXT Developers,
> I was wondering if anybody out there could answer some questions for me.
> 
> 1) If I develop a program under OpenStep for Mach on Intel, can I run that
> application on Windows NT/95 without installing OpenStep on the Windows
> machine?

Yes, but:

i) You will have to program strictly to the OpenStep api --- avoiding having 
a few unix-isms creeping in can be tricky.

ii) You will need to recompile your app for WinNT/95.  Once Yellow Box is 
released, you will be able to program in Java, and so run without any need 
for recompilation.

iii) You will need to supply the OpenStep runtime dll's with your app if it's 
the first OpenStep app to be installed on the WinNT/95 machine.  Apple lets 
you do this for free.

> 2) Does anybody know about an OpenStep API for the Macintosh? I dont mean
> Rhapsody.

Apple has announced a "90% compatible" version of the yellow box to run under 
MacOS 8, which should start becoming available sometime in '98.

> 3) Will OpenStep 4.2 run on a Turbo Slab?

Yes.
 
> Thanks alot for any and all help!

You're welcome.

	Matthew

[Posted and Mailed]

--
           Certe, Toto, sentio nos in Kansate nin iam adesse.

Matthew Seaman P&L Systems, 12 The Broadway, Amersham, Bucks., HP7 0HP, UK
Tel: +44 1494 432422  Fax: +44 1494 432478


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From: thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Sun Sparc TOO!  (was  Re: Prelude2Rhapsody on black hardware!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 27 Jun 1997 18:46:39 GMT
Organization: Information Resources and Technology
Lines: 56
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Prelude installed on a friend's Sparc trivially.  No muss no fuss.
It was a trivial installation.

Thomas

Gary W. Longsine (gary-nospam-@screaming.org) wrote:
: In  it appeared that 
: Rob Barris wrote:
: >    I finally got around to trying the Prelude OpenStep 4.2 CDROM on my
: > 68040 NextStation Turbo.  After mounting the disc, running Upgrader.app and
: > then clearing off some disk space by its advice, the install worked!
: > 
: >    After having heard from any number of people "nahhh, it's an Intel only
: > release" it was a pleasant surprise indeed to see that the discs from WWDC
: > were actually fat builds for both Intel and "black" NeXT hardware. (So far
: > I've only installed the User side FWIW)
: > 
: >    However I only have a 240MB HD in that machine, and now it's full. Looks
: > like I need to swap in a 1GB drive or something before I continue with
: > installing the "Developer" disc.

: Hi Rob,

: You may know this already, but when slipping a new disk into a NeXTstation, 
: remember to stay away from the newest (7200RPM) disks like the SeaGate 
: Baracuda.  It's an excellent disk, but it's too hot for the machine.  If you 
: keep the room temperature very cool (less than 70 or so) it would  be fine, 
: but if the room temp gets up to about 80, you'll probably start to see kernel 
: panics which result from an overheated CPU.

: /gary
: --
: Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep  MachOS
: PLATINUM technology, inc.          | \ o.O|   Objective-C
: l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=     the Dock
: (Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.


--
               <>+<>                 //////      __v__        __\/__
   `\|||/      /---\     """""""    | _ - |     (_____)   .  / ^  _ \  .
    (q p)     | o o |   <^-@-@-^>  (| o O |)   .( O O ),  |\| (o)(o) |/|
_ooO_<_>_Ooo_ooO_U_Ooo_ooO__v__Ooo_ooO_u_Ooo_ooO__(_)__Ooa__oOO_()_OOo___
[_____}_____!____.}_____{_____|_____}_____i____.}_____!_____{_____}_____]
__.}____.|_____{_____!____.}_____|_____{.____}_____|_____}_____|_____!___
[_____{_____}_____|_____}_____i_____}_____|_____}_____i_____{_____}_____]
Thomas Poff
1308 Michele Ct.
Rohnert Park, CA  94928
(707)664-1867

To see some interesting software for the Newton, please try:

http://www.cs.sonoma.edu/Newton
ftp://ftp.cs.sonoma.edu/pub/Newton

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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Accessing web page data
Date: 27 Jun 1997 21:02:58 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <5p19q2$k88$1@news.digifix.com>
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On 06/27/97, beauvois@usa.net wrote:
>
> I'm working on an app and would like to include a feature that would
>access a web site and strip it of some of its available data for use 
in
>updating parts of my app. Here's an example: 
>
> I'd like my app to periodically check with a site that maintains a 
local
>weather report, grab this weather data (text/images) and have use it 
as a
>reference.
>
> I have a few ideas on how to do this, but would greatly welcome any 
others
>and/or known existing examples of anything similar.
>

	There is an example of how you can do this type of thing using 
the NSFileHandle to grab data from http servers.

	Its on Stepwise in the FactBase...

	http://www2.stepwise.com/FactBase

	Look under Rhapsody Development FAQs at the ToolHandle 
Example..



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 


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From: MaRK_BeSSeY@NeXT.CoM (Mark Bessey)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 27 Jun 1997 23:29:08 GMT
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Thomas Poff writes
> Perhaps I can't really whine too much about it but I am wondering
> if anyone misses the simpler, arguably more elegant version of Project
> Builder?

If you think the 4.2 version is complicated, wait'll you see the *NEW*  
Project Builder...

-Mark
--
Mark Bessey
Apple Computer, Inc.
-->I DON'T SPEAK FOR APPLE<--
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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 28 Jun 1997 00:06:37 GMT
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Thomas Poff  wrote:
> Perhaps I can't really whine too much about it but I am wondering
> if anyone misses the simpler, arguably more elegant version of Project
> Builder?

This is exactly how I felt until I started using frameworks.
I would prefer it if they eliminated the text view beneath the
priject file browser and made an open spec for taking to 3rd party
class editors.

-- 
Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
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From: droleary@alpha.temporal.org (Doc O'Leary)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Accessing web page data
Date: 28 Jun 1997 04:16:27 GMT
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On 27 Jun 1997 10:51:54 GMT, beauvois@usa.net  
asked about extracting data from HTML...

I have a framework started that does this.  What it actually does is 
convert SGML into ObjC objects and then allows you to access the hierarchy
of elements with SQL-like methods.  Unfortunately, it is only used internally
and not complete enough to license as a commercial product.  If this isn't
an immediate need, I should have something more usable in a few month.
Anyone with an interest should let me know; I currently have other projects
at a higher priority.

         ---------   Doc

-- 
Copyright 1997 by Doc O'Leary.
Author of the wildly unsuccessful "DOS and Windows for People Who
Still Have a Clue"
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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: IbInspector..hwo to deactive color wells
Date: 28 Jun 1997 22:54:44 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
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Cc: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de

In <5p3506$oo9$1@concorde.ctp.com> Thomas Engel wrote:
> P.S. Why isn't there any docu for that important class (its not in the 
> framework :-( )  and why is there no docu for a ton of other features.
> PB in 4.2 (and the release in general) looks really good...but that lacking 
> docu is a niightmare  (can you say what NSeraserect does without digging 
out  
> the 3.x docu ?.. ect..etc..pp.)

I agree. I would totally kill for updated docs for the IB framework. It seems 
like palettizing stuff is a lot easier now, it's just a lot of guesswork 
since you have to judged from:

- the headers
- 3.3 docs
- the "Other Kits" conversion guide

What would be really helpful here would be for NeXT to update the TTools 
example to 4.x. The ProgressViewPalette example is okay, but it's too 
simplistic..

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: herren@flannet.middlebury.edu (David Herren)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help! Openstep on trial
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 17:15:32 -0400
Organization: Language Schools of Middlebury College
Lines: 54
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(my apologies for this cross post. I've stopped reading advocacy myself a=
nd yet there are likely some individuals who read it but aren't programme=
rs, and yet might be able to help us)


My organization is a recent, but enthusiastic adopter of Openstep develop=
ment technology. With the acquisition, and the promise of maintaining one=
 set of source code and delivering our academic software across many plat=
forms, we feel we've made the right
choice, particularly since all of our applications must be Unicode capabl=
e (we develop primarily language learning tools).


Recently however we have come under attack by microsoft apologists on cam=
pus who, for no reason other than old boy politics--certainly not experti=
se--have more influence than they warrant. At our busiest time of year, j=
ust a few weeks after moving our
entire operation to a newly renovated building, and days before our summe=
r programs begin, we are being called upon to prepare a presentation whic=
h will justify our decision to go with openstep development. Can you help=
 us? In preparation for the
presentation, we would love to include the following:


- a list of large corporations who use openstep or nextstep for mission c=
ritical applications


- a list of academic institutions using openstep or nextstep


- the _exact_ citation from Byte magazine in which I have heard they said=
 "Openstep is probably the most respected software on the planet."


- a quotation from the gentlemen who invented the Web at Cern using Nexts=
tep as his development platform (and a citation for verification). I reca=
ll seeing that he had been quoted as saying that the tools allowed him to=
 create the Web much faster than
anything else.


For stupid reasons it's just possible that our vice president will try to=
 tell us what compiler we can use unless we can present compelling and la=
y person understandable information about Openstep. Otherwise we may be t=
old we have to use Visual C++. (any
information about Visual C++ capabilities/limitations with respect to Uni=
code would also be welcome--it's cross platform capabilities would be int=
eresting to note too)


If you have done any programming, contract or otherwise, for a big corpor=
ation and are not prevented from telling us so (no details necessary, jus=
t the company name and the nature of the project), please respond to me d=
irectly. Any other information which
you may be able to provide that we can include in our presentation would =
be welcomed as well. If you have chosen openstep development and would ca=
re to share information about your own decision making process, we'd love=
 to hear about that too. =


We intend to prepare the presentation in html for posting on the web and =
I will gladly make the URL available to these newsgroups--perhaps someone=
 else may be able to use the information we prepare.


Many thanks in advance. Please respond directly to:


herren@flannet.middlebury.edu




-- =

David Herren --------------------------------------------------

                     Web:  http://www.middlebury.edu/~herren/

                 General:  herren@flannet.middlebury.edu

           NeXTMail only:  herren@barcelona.cet.middlebury.edu

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From: andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 29 Jun 1997 02:40:03 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Lines: 31
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References: <5p12cg$ar2$3@nuke.csu.net> 
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lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn) wrote:
> In article <5p12cg$ar2$3@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas  
> Poff) writes:
> > Perhaps I can't really whine too much about it but I am wondering
> > if anyone misses the simpler, arguably more elegant version of Project
> > Builder?
> > 
> Yes! NS 3.3 was the last good one. The original visionaries are long gone  
> and it shows in the tools.

I disagree in the case of ProjectBuilder. While I do agree that it
could (and should) be more flexible for people who want to use multiple
apps for the different functionality that PB covers, I personally find
the new PB _far_ superior to the old PB, and it's excruciating to go
back nowadays when I have to do some 3.3 development. I know a number
of others who feel the same way. The new PB makes keeping the open
files organized _much_ easier, it's far easier to see who's been
modified, switch between files, do global finds/replaces, debug, and a
host of other things. I sympathize with those who don't appreciate the
new PB - no one environment fits all. But I resent the blanket
statement that the new PB is inferior - that's a far from global
opinion.

Note that there are some tricks you can pull to make PB more to your
liking if you don't want the project browser attached to the files,
etc. Experiment with it, and you can probably gain back most of what
you've lost based on your preferences, while taking advantage of the
many improvements. 

-- 
andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com  -  NeXTmail & MIME ok
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: IbInspector..hwo to deactive color wells
Date: 28 Jun 1997 13:53:10 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Hi,

while working on an Openstep aplette I have the same "trouble" like usual... 
I need to to deactivete the color well when I get swapped out.

Sadly the headers inside teh InterfaceBuidler Framework don't contain alot of 
docu strings.

So which is the proper method to subclass from IbInspector to deactive the 
color well ?

Do I get an ok:  or touch:  ? or revert ?
I would suspect it is an ok..but maybe some knwos this from the top of his 
head. Thanxs.

Aloha
	Tomi

P.S. Why isn't there any docu for that important class (its not in the 
framework :-( )  and why is there no docu for a ton of other features.
PB in 4.2 (and the release in general) looks really good...but that lacking 
docu is a niightmare  (can you say what NSeraserect does without digging out  
the 3.x docu ?.. ect..etc..pp.)
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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: NeXT Newbie Questions
Date: 29 Jun 1997 03:36:55 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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In comp.sys.next.programmer Eric Harley  wrote:
> 1) If I develop a program under OpenStep for Mach on Intel, can I run that
> application on Windows NT/95 without installing OpenStep on the Windows
> machine?

No.

> 2) Does anybody know about an OpenStep API for the Macintosh? I dont mean
> Rhapsody.

(I'm assuming you mean MacOS)
Someone may be working on GNUstep for Mac.
There was also something in Macweek about an OpenStep for MacOS.

> 3) Will OpenStep 4.2 run on a Turbo Slab?

Yes.


-- 
Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
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From: sanguish@digifix.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.announce,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Resources on the Net
Supersedes: <10436866952022@digifix.com>
Date: 29 Jun 1997 03:56:52 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
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Topics include:
        Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
        OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
        Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
        NeXTanswers



Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP World Wide Web Sites
============================================

  The following sites are a sample of the OpenStep related WWW
  sites available. A comprehensive list is available on Stepwise.
  
Stepwise OpenStep/Rhapsody Information Server
  http://www.stepwise.com
      Stepwise has been serving the OpenStep/NEXTSTEP community
      since March 1993.  Some of the many resources on the site
      include:  OpenStep Third Party Software guide, Developer
      Directory, Mailing List information, extensive listing of
      FTP and WWW sites related to OpenStep and NEXTSTEP, OpenStep
      related Frequently Asked Questions.
      
NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
  http://www.peak.org/next
  http://www.peak.org/openstep
      PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
      America.

NeXT Software Archives @ Peak.org
  http://www.peak.org/next
  http://www.peak.org/openstep
      PEAK is the premier NeXTStep/OpenStep FTP site in North
      America.  This is the World Wide Web interace to the FTP 
      site.

Apple Enterprise Software Group 
(formerly NeXT Computer, Inc.)
  http://www.next.com
      Here is where you'll find the NeXTanswers archive, with
      information on OpenStep installation, drivers and software
      patches.
     
Apple Computer's 'Prelude to Rhapsody' Self Support Site
  http://devworld.apple.com/dev/prelude.html
      This site has been constructed to help you help yourself to
      learn as much as possible about the foundation for Rhapsody,
      today's OPENSTEP. The site provides an informal collection
      of pointers, references, and starting points for developers
      who are using the Prelude to Rhapsody bundle, distributed at
      this year's Worldwide Developer Conference.



OpenStep/NEXTSTEP/Rhapsody Related Usenet Newsgroups
====================================================

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.ADVOCACY
  
      This is the "why NEXTSTEP is better (or worse) than anything
      else in the known universe" forum. It was created specifically
      to divert lengthy flame wars from .misc.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.ANNOUNCE
      Announcements of general interest to the NeXT community (new
      products, FTP submissions, user group meetings, commercial
      announcements etc.)

      This is a moderated newsgroup, meaning that you can't post
      to it directly. Submissions should be e-mailed to
      next-announce@digifix.com  where the moderator (Scott Anguish)
      will screen them for suitability.

      Messages posted to announce should NOT be posted or crossposted
      to any other comp.sys.next groups.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.BUGS
      A place to report verifiable bugs in NeXT-supplied software.
      Material e-mailed to Bug_NeXT@NeXT.COM is not published, so
      this is a place for the net community find out about problems
      when they're discovered. This newsgroup has a very poor
      signal/noise ratio--all too often bozos post stuff here that
      really belongs someplace else. It rarely makes sense to
      crosspost between this and other c.s.n.* newsgroups, but
      individual reports may be germane to certain non-NeXT-specific
      groups as well.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.HARDWARE
      Discussions about NeXT-label hardware and compatible peripherals,
      and non-NeXT-produced hardware (e.g. Intel) that is compatible
      with  NEXTSTEP. In most cases, questions about Intel hardware
      are better asked in comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware. Questions about
      SCSI devices belong in comp.periphs.scsi. This isn't the place
      to buy or sell used NeXTs--that's what .marketplace is for.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.MARKETPLACE
      NeXT stuff for sale/wanted. Material posted here must not be
      crossposted to any other c.s.n.* newsgroup, but may be
      crossposted to misc.forsale.computers.workstation or appropriate
      regional newsgroups.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.MISC
      For stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Anything you post
      here by definition doesn't belong anywhere else in c.s.n.*--i.e.
      no crossposting!!!

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.PROGRAMMER
      Questions and discussions of interest to NEXTSTEP programmers.
      This is primarily a forum for advanced technical material.

      Generic UNIX questions belong elsewhere (comp.unix.questions),
      although specific questions about NeXT's implementation or
      porting issues are appropriate here. Note that there are
      several other more "horizontal" newsgroups (comp.lang.objective-c,
      comp.lang.postscript, comp.os.mach, comp.protocols.tcp-ip,
      etc.) that may also be of interest.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.SOFTWARE
      This is a place to talk about [third party] software products
      that run on NEXTSTEP systems.

   COMP.SYS.NEXT.SYSADMIN
      Stuff relating to NeXT system administration issues; in rare
      cases this will spill over into .programmer or .software.

** RELATED NEWSGROUPS **
 
   COMP.SOFT-SYS.NEXTSTEP
      Like comp.sys.next.software and comp.sys.next.misc combined.
      Exists because NeXT is a software-only company now, and
      comp.soft-sys is for discussion of software systems with scope
      similar to NEXTSTEP.

   COMP.LANG.OBJECTIVE-C
      Technical talk about the Objective-C language. Implemetations
      discussed include NeXT, Gnu, Stepstone, etc.

   COMP.OBJECT
      Technical talk about OOP in general. Lots of C++ discussion,
      but NeXT and Objective-C get quite a bit of attention. At
      times gets almost philosophical about objects, but then again
      OOP allows one to be a programmer/philosopher. (The original
      comp.sys.next no longer exists--do not attempt to post to
      it.)

      Exception to the crossposting restrictions: announcements
      of usenet RFDs or CFVs, when made by the news.announce.newgroups
      moderator, may be simultaneously crossposted to all c.s.n.*
      newsgroups.



Getting the Newsgroups without getting News
===========================================

    Thanks to Michael Ross at antigone.com, the main NEXTSTEP groups
    are now available as a mailing list digest as well.
    
	    next-nextstep
	    next-advocacy
	    next-announce
	    next-bugs
	    next-hardware
	    next-marketplace
	    next-misc
	    next-programmer
	    next-software
	    next-sysadmin
	    object
	    lang-objective-c
    
    (For a full description, send mail to listserv@antigone.com).
    
    The subscription syntax is essentially the same as Majordomo's.
    
    To subscribe, send a message to *-request@lists.best.com saying:
    
	    subscribe
    
    where * is the name of the list
    e.g. next-programmer-request@lists.best.com



Major OpenStep/NEXTSTEP FTP sites
=================================

   ftp://ftp.next.peak.org
       The main site for North American submissions formerly
       ftp.cs.orst.edu
   ftp://ftp.peanuts.org:
       (Peanuts) Located in Germany.  Comprehensive archive site.
       Very well maintained.
   ftp://ftp.nluug.nl/pub/comp/next
       NeGeN/NiNe (NEXTSTEP Gebruikers Nederland/NeXTSTEP in the Netherlands)
   ftp://cube.sm.dsi.unimi.it
       (Italian NEXTSTEP User Group)
   ftp://ftp.nmr.embl-heidelberg.de/pub/next
       eduStep
   ftp://ftp.next.com:
       See below


ftp.next.com and NextAnswers@next.com
=====================================
[from the document ftp://ftp.next.com/pub/NeXTanswers/1000_Help]



          Welcome to the NeXTanswers information retrieval system!

This system allows you to request online technical documents, drivers, and
other software, which are then sent to you automatically.  You can request
documents by fax or Internet electronic mail, read them on the world-wide
web, transfer them by anonymous ftp, or download them from the BBS.

NeXTanswers is an automated retrieval system.  Requests sent to it are
answered electronically, and are not read or handled by a human being.
NeXTanswers does not answer your questions or forward your requests.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY E-MAIL

To use NeXTanswers by Internet e-mail, send requests to
nextanswers@next.com.  Files are sent as NeXTmail attachments by
default; you can request they be sent as ASCII text files instead.

To request a file, include that file's ID number in the Subject line or the
body of the message.  You can request several files in a single message.

You can also include commands in the Subject line or the body of the message.
These commands affect the way that files you request are sent:

  ASCII            causes the requested files to be sent as ASCII text
  SPLIT            splits large files into 95KB chunks, using the MIME
                   Message/Partial specification
  REPLY-TO address sets the e-mail address NeXTanswers uses

These commands return information about the NeXTanswers system:

  HELP             returns this help file
  INDEX            returns the list of all available files
  INDEX BY DATE    returns the list of files, sorted newest to oldest
  SEARCH keywords  lists all files that contain all the keywords you list
                   (ignoring capitalization)

For example, a message with the following Subject line requests
three files:

  Subject:  2101 2234 1109

A message with this body requests the same three files be
sent as ASCII text files:

  2101 2234 1109 ascii

This message requests two lists of files, one for each search:

  Subject:

  SEARCH Dell SCSI
  SEARCH NetInfo domain

NeXTanswers will reply to the address in your From: line.  To use a different
address either set your Reply-To: line, or use the NeXTanswers command
REPLY-TO

If you have any problem with the system or suggestions for improvement,
please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY FAX

To use NeXTanswers by fax, call (415) 780-3990 from a touch-tone phone and
follow the instructions.  You'll be asked for your fax number, a number to
identify your fax (like your phone extension or office number), and the ID
numbers of the files you want.  You can also request a list of available
files.  When you finish entering the file numbers, end the call and the
files will be faxed to you.

If you have problems using this fax system, please call Technical Support
at 1-800-848-6398. You cannot use the fax system outside the U.S & Canada.


USING NEXTANSWERS VIA THE WORLD-WIDE WEB

To use NeXTanswers via the Internet World-Wide Web connect to NeXT's web
server at URL http://www.next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY ANONYMOUS FTP

To use NeXTanswers by Internet anonymous FTP, connect to FTP.NEXT.COM
and read the help file pub/NeXTanswers/README.  If you have problems using
this, please send mail to nextanswers-request@next.com.


USING NEXTANSWERS BY MODEM

To use NeXTanswers via modem call the NeXTanswers BBS at (415) 780-2965.
Log in as the user "guest", and enter the Files section.  From there you
can download NeXTanswers documents.


FOR MORE HELP...

If you need technical support for NEXTSTEP beyond the information available
from NeXTanswers, call the Support Hotline at 1-800-955-NeXT (outside the U.S.
call +1-415-424-8500) to speak to a NEXTSTEP Technical Support Technician.
If your site has a NeXT support contract, your site's support contact must
make this call to the hotline.  Otherwise, hotline support is on a
pay-per-call basis.


Thanks for using NeXTanswers!


     _________________________________________________________________
                                      
   
Written by:
        Eric P. Scott ( eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU ) and
        Scott Anguish ( sanguish@digifix.com )
        
Additions from:
        Greg Anderson ( Greg_Anderson@afs.com )
        Michael Pizolato ( alf@epix.net )
        Dan Grillo ( dan_grillo@next.com )

####################################################################
From: kc@ignem.omnigroup.com (Ken Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 29 Jun 1997 04:30:24 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Lines: 17
Message-ID: <5p4od0$63j$2@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <5oegkq$sf@news-rocq.inria.fr> <5ofmco$2jr$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>  <5op5it$lpo$2@solaris.cc.vt.edu>  <5p23cm$fcr$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ignem.omnigroup.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
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Christopher Wolf (cwolf@wolfware.com) wrote:
: For these reasons and others my personal preference is to always use
: explicit releases unless I have specific reason to use autorelease
: (i.e. it's a value which I need to return from the method.)

And for those reasons and others that's our policy on using -release
vs. -autorelease here at Omni.

One of the other not-yet-stated reasons to avoid -autorelease is that
-release is MUCH more efficient than -autorelease (particularly in
subclasses of our OmniFoundation root class OFObject, where we
override -retain, -release, and -retainCount to manage an inline
retain count for faster access than the default -retain/-release
implementation).
--
Ken Case			kc@omnigroup.com
Omni Development, Inc.		http://www.omnigroup.com
####################################################################
From: kc@ignem.omnigroup.com (Ken Case)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Does OS4.2 finally fix the printf %g bug?
Date: 29 Jun 1997 04:15:13 GMT
Organization: Omni Development, Inc.
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <5p4ngh$63j$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
References: <5npof5$jlf@tribune.usask.ca> <5o94tp$atk@news.orst.edu> 
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Scott Hess (scott@doubleu.com) wrote:
: What if they are actively supporting the broken behaviour?  I can't
: imagine it would be more than a couple line change, no need to go to
: BSD4.4.

Certainly there are programs that rely on the current behavior, but I
suppose it's reasonable to break that old code in favor of matching
every other vendor's implementation.  (But it is quite possible that
some of the BSD 4.3 stuff relies on that behavior.)

Note that the current %g behavior is exactly the behavior that was in
BSD 4.3, BSD 4.2, and most other C libraries with which I was familiar
(other UNIX, VMS, etc.) before the new "standard" behavior was
documented.  In fact, since it seems that every vendor had to fix
their libraries to conform to the new %g standard, I'm suspicious that
it was a documentation error in the standard in the first place: that
they meant to document the existing behavior, but stated it
imprecisely (using "significant figures" when that wasn't really the
right term), and thus when people reading the standard pressed the
issue everyone was forced to change their libraries to match the
misstated standard.  (Of course, this is complete speculation.)

Oh, well!  It's certainly time to conform, whether that phrasing in
the standard was intended or not: it's certainly not likely anyone
will go back and change the wording of the standard at this point
(though I did have hope for a year or two).
--
Ken Case			kc@omnigroup.com
Omni Development, Inc.		http://www.omnigroup.com
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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: ttakeo@camel.oasis.tcp-ip.or.jp (Tetuya Takeo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: lookupd bug is fixed?
Date: 28 Jun 1997 17:51:46 GMT
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Hi,

There is a fatal bug on OPENSTEP4.1's lookupd (at least on OPENSTEP4.1J).  
The bug is that a connection from IP address which NetInfo does not know 
makes system panic.  This bug prevents me from introducing OPENSTEP to my 
customers.  So, I wonder whether the bug is fixed on release 4.2.

Thanks in advance.

---
Tetuya TAKEO
ttakeo@tcp-ip.or.jp     (NeXTmail welcomed!)

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From: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Message-ID: 
Sender: lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn)
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Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 16:41:15 GMT
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In article <5p12cg$ar2$3@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas  
Poff) writes:
> Perhaps I can't really whine too much about it but I am wondering
> if anyone misses the simpler, arguably more elegant version of Project
> Builder?
> 
Yes! NS 3.3 was the last good one. The original visionaries are long gone  
and it shows in the tools.
-- 
Lyle Parkyn                                 
ProSoft Solutions Inc. 	(http://www.prosoft.com)
lparkyn@prosoft.com  	(NeXTmail, text or MIME formats welcome)
Bus:(604)324-3311 Fax:(604)538-7694
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 29 Jun 1997 08:26:32 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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On 06/28/97, andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com wrote:
>lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn) wrote:
>> In article <5p12cg$ar2$3@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas  
>> Poff) writes:
>> > Perhaps I can't really whine too much about it but I am wondering
>> > if anyone misses the simpler, arguably more elegant version of Project
>> > Builder?
>> > 
>> Yes! NS 3.3 was the last good one. The original visionaries are long gone  
>> and it shows in the tools.
>
>I disagree in the case of ProjectBuilder. While I do agree that it
>could (and should) be more flexible for people who want to use multiple
>apps for the different functionality that PB covers, I personally find
>the new PB _far_ superior to the old PB, and it's excruciating to go
>back nowadays when I have to do some 3.3 development. I know a number
>of others who feel the same way. The new PB makes keeping the open
>files organized _much_ easier, it's far easier to see who's been
>modified, switch between files, do global finds/replaces, debug, and a
>host of other things. I sympathize with those who don't appreciate the
>new PB - no one environment fits all. But I resent the blanket
>statement that the new PB is inferior - that's a far from global
>opinion.

It took me a while to get used to the new Project Builder and the instabilities 
in the 4.1 release made it frustrating to use.  The 4.2 version is a pleasure to 
use though now that I've gotten used to it.  I'm forced to use 3.3 PB at work 
and continually find myself frustrated by the lack of many of the 4.2 features.  
I'd advise the original poster to give it a honest chance -- you may be 
surprised at it's functionality.   

I still wish they'd make the auto-indentation a bit more smarter or flexible and 
if I double click on a particular file in the workspace I really wish PB would 
bring that project and file to the front but other than that I don't find PB 
getting in my way at all.


>Note that there are some tricks you can pull to make PB more to your
>liking if you don't want the project browser attached to the files,
>etc. Experiment with it, and you can probably gain back most of what
>you've lost based on your preferences, while taking advantage of the
>many improvements. 
>
>-- 
>andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com  -  NeXTmail & MIME ok
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: 29 Jun 1997 08:39:00 GMT
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On 06/28/97, Ken Case wrote:
>Christopher Wolf (cwolf@wolfware.com) wrote:
>: For these reasons and others my personal preference is to always use
>: explicit releases unless I have specific reason to use autorelease
>: (i.e. it's a value which I need to return from the method.)
>
>And for those reasons and others that's our policy on using -release
>vs. -autorelease here at Omni.
>
>One of the other not-yet-stated reasons to avoid -autorelease is that
>-release is MUCH more efficient than -autorelease (particularly in
>subclasses of our OmniFoundation root class OFObject, where we
>override -retain, -release, and -retainCount to manage an inline
>retain count for faster access than the default -retain/-release
>implementation).

Another tip from the trenches for anyone who's listening and maybe learning:

If you're going to create an object which you want to stick around it's more 
efficient to use the alloc/init pair to create the object then to use one of the 
class factory methods which returns an autoreleased object and then issue an 
additional retain:

i.e. I suggest using this:

[[NSMutableArray alloc] initWithCapacity: 16];

rather than this:

[[NSMutableArray arrayWithCapacity: 16] retain];

Both statements have the same net result but the first one avoids the overhead 
of ever adding the object to the autorelease pool.

In this cases when you really do want an autoreleased object then use the 
factory class methods.

Making this distinction not only is more efficient but if it's consistently 
applied helps indicate the author's intent for the scope of the object's life.

>--
>Ken Case			kc@omnigroup.com
>Omni Development, Inc.		http://www.omnigroup.com
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 29 Jun 1997 11:40:24 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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andrew_abernathy@omnigroup.com wrote:
>lparkyn@prosoft.com (Lyle Parkyn) wrote:
>> Yes! NS 3.3 was the last good one. The original visionaries are long gone  
>> and it shows in the tools.
>
>I disagree in the case of ProjectBuilder. ... I personally find
>the new PB _far_ superior to the old PB, and it's excruciating to go
>back nowadays when I have to do some 3.3 development. I know a number
>of others who feel the same way. 

PB 4.2 for President!

4.2 is really stable and by far a more productive environment then 3.3 ever 
was. PB 4.2 is a lot more fun...looks better and does not flood my screen 
with windows.

I still have a "ton" of suggestions that I could make to make it even better 
(esp. integration of PB-Ib and how docu is being handled)...but give that 
rhapsody will be different once more I think we'll just wait and see.

Aloha
	Tomi

P.S... I can only dream and prey that they will redesign PB to become the 
Talignet/Dylan dynamic browser system. Boy would that be great...with plugins 
and such....yess..yes..yes
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Printing on Non-PostScript Printers
Date: 29 Jun 1997 12:39:13 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <5p3isq$sag@martini.tcp-net.ad.jp>  
ttakeo@camel.oasis.tcp-ip.or.jp (Tetuya Takeo) writes:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm seeking for the third party products which print on OPENSTEP  
Enterprise's 
> PostScript code to non-PostScript printer, Since OPENSTEP Enterprise does  
not 
> have such an ability (Although it can rasterize PS code on a screen).   
Anyone 
> knows?

Our OpenStep printer drivers are coming along nicely, and a test port
to NT has also been successful.

Marcel Weiher
System & Project GmbH
Berlin
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From: beauvois@usa.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Round Windows
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:55:02 -0500
Organization: University of Tennessee
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Following Thomas Poff's idea, I think round windows would be a very
interesting addition.

But how would one implement such a thing ?
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From: asdfjsdlk@;okajsflsd.com
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Subject: -Hot Anal Teen Pics * teen59.jpg
Date: 28 Jun 1997 13:09:45 GMT
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Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.  A report will be
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Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep: threads vs garbage collection
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:29:08 -0600
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
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Quinn wrote:

> Pretty much.  Each thread *does* have its own autorelease pool.  When that
> pool is released depends on the design of your thread.  If your thread is
> modelled on some sort of periodic action, you could have your thread
> release the autorelease the pool at the end of that periodic action, much
> like the AppKit does.  This is most probably a good idea.  Alternatively,
> releasing the autorelease pool at the end of the thread is the default
> behaviour.
> 
Unless you are creating and destroying threads pretty quickly, or create
almost no objects within the threads, this essentially means that you
should manage the autorelease pools yourself.  If you don't the memory
usage of your application will tend to grow pretty fast.  This worst
case of this is creating a thread when you start the application that is
supposed to run forever.  Memory usage will increase forever until your
system runs out of swap space.

It used to be true, under 3.3, that timed procedures used some sort of
default autorelease pool that was not freed until the application
ended.  I don't know whether this is true under OpenStep or not (anyone
know?). If so, unless you're writing a service or some other short lived
application, you need to manage the autorelease pools again.

Jim
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From: u8222015@cc.nctu.edu.tw (Spencer Yu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Prolog for NeXTStation?
Date: 29 Jun 1997 15:52:13 GMT
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Hi I am looking for a Prolog interpreter for my NeXTStaion...where
can I find a free one? I would prefer one with GUI but anything will do
thanx!
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From: Richard Cave 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 09:40:45 -0700
Organization: Claris
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Mark Bessey wrote:
> If you think the 4.2 version is complicated, wait'll you see the *NEW*
> Project Builder...

What does that mean?

Richard Cave

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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:37:45 -0600
Organization: Southwest Cyberport
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One thing that, at least to me, is a major interface flaw is the
launcher window.  The buttons on the top mean that you need enough
screen real estate to see the whole window.  With the buttons at the
bottom, you need only enough for the buttons and the last couple of
lines of text.  Of course, thanks to the marvels of Interface Builder,
you can edit the launcher nib and make this change.  I highly recommend
it.

Jim
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting OpenStep/Mach program to run on Windows 95
Date: 30 Jun 1997 14:27:21 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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Eric Harley writes
> Okay, I have an OpenStep application that I just wrote and would like to
> get it on Windows 95 without buying OpenStep for NT. Where and how do I
> get the shared libraries for doing this?

(1) The runtime is still not officially "free," so what you propose 
    to do is illegal on its face.

(2) If you don't have OS/NT, then you don't have a binary executable 
    capable of running under Windows, so you're screwed either way. 
    Code compiled with the OS/Mach release will only run under Mach.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
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From: erich@powerwareintl.com (Eric Harley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Getting OpenStep/Mach program to run on Windows 95
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 06:46:15 -0800
Organization: EdgeMedia Networks
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Okay, I have an OpenStep application that I just wrote and would like to
get it on Windows 95 without buying OpenStep for NT. Where and how do I
get the shared libraries for doing this?

-Eric
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From: Stefan Ried 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: lookupd bug is fixed?
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:02:11 +0200
Organization: Max Plank Institut for Polymer Research
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Tetuya Takeo wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> There is a fatal bug on OPENSTEP4.1's lookupd (at least on OPENSTEP4.1J).
> The bug is that a connection from IP address which NetInfo does not know
> makes system panic.  This bug prevents me from introducing OPENSTEP to my
> customers.  So, I wonder whether the bug is fixed on release 4.2.
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> ---
> Tetuya TAKEO
> ttakeo@tcp-ip.or.jp     (NeXTmail welcomed!)

4.2 has a new lookupd. 
There was a bug conserning netgroups which is fixed. I can't say
something something about your behavior.

stefan



-- 
 ______________________________________________________________________
/Stefan Ried, MPI f. Polymerforschung, Postf.3148, 55021 Mainz, F.R.G. \
|                                       ... openstep, the biggest step |
| E-Mail  ried@mpip-mainz.mpg.de (MIME welcome) ...since the invention | 
| Telefon ++49 6131 379 267  Fax:++49 6131 379 340   ...of the __/___/ |
| Project working on pattern-formation in liquid crystals     /./\__/\\|
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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 30 Jun 1997 18:37:18 GMT
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I believe that I finally have a handle on how/when to properly retain objects 
in OpenStep:  

Using the combination of +(id)alloc and -(id)init increments the object ref 
count to 1. So does creating an object by copying another. Using special 
creater methods such as +(NSArray *)array or +(NSDictionary *)dictionary do 
not, so you need to retain them explicitly if you need them to hang around.

Is this correct?  If so, then WHY is it this way?  It seems to me that it 
would make more sense if you retained every object you wanted to keep.  I'm 
sure, however, that there is some reason why it isn't that way.  Can someone 
fill me in?

Thanks!

--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Mark Trombino             |  J A M S o f t                             |
|    mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  |  Audio DSP Tools for Openstep & Rhapsody   | 
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

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From: ftouhi@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Majid Ftouhi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Compiling LEDA for NextStep
Date: 30 Jun 1997 19:29:37 GMT
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Hi there:
	I'm trying to compile LEDA for NextStep on Intel. I get this errors

g++ -DLEDA_INSTALL -I../../incl -O -I/usr/X11R6/include -c _x_basic.c
_x_basic.c:56: X11/X.h: No such file or directory
_x_basic.c:57: X11/Xlib.h: No such file or directory
_x_basic.c:58: X11/Xutil.h: No such file or directory
_x_basic.c:59: X11/keysym.h: No such file or directory
*** Exit 1 (ignored)

Any one can tell me where are the equivalente files: X.h, Xlib.h, Xutil.h and 
keysym.h in X11R6?

THANKS IN ADVANCE

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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 30 Jun 1997 19:10:50 GMT
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In <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> Mark Trombino wrote:
> I believe that I finally have a handle on how/when to properly retain 
objects 
> in OpenStep:  

Almost. :)

> Using the combination of +(id)alloc and -(id)init increments the object ref 
> count to 1. So does creating an object by copying another. Using special 
> creater methods such as +(NSArray *)array or +(NSDictionary *)dictionary do 
> not, so you need to retain them explicitly if you need them to hang around.

That's not quite right. the +array and +dictionary and +stringWith (etc) 
methods also create objects with a retainCount of 1; however, these objects 
are added to the current NSAutoreleasePool, which means at the end of the 
pool's lifetime, they will receive a -release, decrementing their retainCount 
(and freeing them).

In desktop applications, the current pool has a lifetime which ends at the 
end of the current event. In other applications, you could put a pool around, 
say, I/O processing from a socket, or some such. If you want to keep these 
objects around, you need to explicitly -retain them, so that they will have a 
retainCount of 2 (or more) before the NSAutoreleasePool dies and sends its 
-release message. IMHO, this system usually works pretty well, and I do 
prefer this to actual garbage collection as you can get away with simple 
assignments in places you need to.

I generally follow a policy where in all instance setFooBar:(NSObject 
*)sender methods I retain (or copy) the incoming object (and release the 
previous value). In methods that return a value, I usually do return 
[[someValue copy] autorelease], unless there's a specific reason not to.

See NeXT's documentation for NSObject and NSAutoreleasePool. It's been very 
helpful, at least to me.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Compiling LEDA for NextStep
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 18:16:02 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 30-Jun-97 Compiling LEDA
for NextStep by Majid Ftouhi@IRO.UMontre 
> Any one can tell me where are the equivalente files: X.h, Xlib.h, Xutil.h
> and keysym.h in X11R6?

By default, they don't exist under NEXTSTEP since NEXTSTEP doesn't ship
with X-Windows.  You need to get some version of X that comes with the X
development environment (headers and libraries)-- your choices include
commercial products like co-Xist and freeware like Xnext.

-Chuck




         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: frank@this.NO_SPAM.net (Frank M. Siegert)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Prolog for NeXTStation?
Date: 29 Jun 1997 20:22:12 GMT
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In <5p60bd$30k$1@news2.nctu.edu.tw> Spencer Yu wrote:
> Hi I am looking for a Prolog interpreter for my NeXTStaion...where
> can I find a free one? I would prefer one with GUI but anything will do
> thanx!

See the NeXT archives on peak and peanuts, there is an sbprolog on 

ftp://ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de/pub/NeXT/developer/languages

I cannot comment about its quality as I am not a prolog guy... :-)

--
* Frank M. Siegert [frank@this.net] - Home http://www.this.net
* NeXTSTEP, Linux, BeOS & PostScript Guy

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From: dbriggs@stem.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: CVS and .nib files
Date: 27 Jun 1997 17:14:38 GMT
Organization: Systemix, Inc.
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Hello, Vladimir -- & others who use CVS on NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP

rtr@user.transit.ru (transit shell) wrote:
>Hi,
>
>Could anybody suggest me how to wrap/unwrap .nib files to store them into cvs
>repository?
>
>Thank you in advance.
>
>Vladimir

THE PROBLEM:
GNU's CVS (Concurrent Version System) is useful for archiving source
code and documentation. It has trouble with InterfaceBuilder, though. 
InterfaceBuilder destroys the CVS information inside the *.nib files 
(directories) when it modifies a *.nib. (Actually, it fails to 
copy the CVS stuff from the old version of the *.nib into the new.) 
Consequently, one can archive a *.lproj directory with CVS, but if 
one checks out a version, then modifies its *.nib files, and then 
tries to archive the new version, -- frustration! 

A SOLUTION:
Bob Vadnais wrote a Palette for InterfaceBuilder, called CVSPalette.
CVSPalette attaches to InterfaceBuilder and fixes the problem;
it copies the CVS stuff when saving a *.nib document.
Christopher Lane recently updated it for InterfaceBuilder 4.2.

Those who use NEXTSTEP 3.x and CVS can get CVSPalette from Bob's
archive submission:
 ftp://next-ftp.peak.org/pub/next/sourcelibrary/palettes/ 
    CVS.NIHS.bs.tar.gz
    CVS.ReadMe

Those who use OPENSTEP 4.2 are invited to e-mail me; I'll send you 
this work by Bob and Christopher. (I've not tested it in 4.0 or 4.1,
and this does not apply to OPENSTEP/NT -- CVS is UNIX.) If Bob Vadnais 
reads this, -- Hey, thanks, Bob! -- he might want to submit this update. 
Unfortunately, I was unable to contact him at PDH and NeXT.

	Don Briggs
	dbriggs@stem.com
        

Of course, fixing InterfaceBuilder itself would be preferable, 
but the NeXT folks are probably all pretty busy, right now ...


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From: "Mark" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer,comp.unix.questions
Subject: Are these entry-level-job handicaps show-stoppers?"
Date: 30 Jun 1997 22:07:59 GMT
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A few months back Gary Longsine posted a thoughtful, detailed response
(quoted at the bottom of this post) in reply to somebody wondering about
getting an entry-level programming job. 

I'm wondering  if he or anyone else would like to comment on my situation -
it's similar but with a difference:  I don't have the CS degree.

I lack no confidence that with some diligent work I can become competent in
Unix programming, Objective-C, the OpenStep API, and fundamental OOP
principles.

However I'm not confident that I can land an entry-level programming job of
some kind because

	* I'm in my mid-thirties

	* never finished my CS university degree

	* and I have no workplace programming experience.

I fear that even if follow Longsine's prescription to the letter, I'll be
shut out of the marketplace.   (It could be though that I have an
unrealistic
and unnecessarily intimidating image of that marketplace.)

So - are the handicaps I've listed show-stoppers? Or I am blowing these
problems out of proportion? Does it amount to doing something unheard of --
or merely unconventional?

I'm kind of in a Catch-22 where I can't afford to go back to finish the
degree without getting a good job first and I can't get a decent job
without getting that degree.

Or is this a self-imposed Catch-22?

What's your _hard-headed_ take on this?

 -- Mark

PS  Naturally, I do understand that even if the entry-level job was
feasible without the degree, that longer-term career considerations are
hindered by the lack of it. 


= - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - = - =

Gary W. Longsine  wrote in article
<5h7eed$ntq$1@news.platinum.com>...
> In <332DA1F1.41A4@hom.net> it appeared that jeff parsons wrote:
> > Hi, anyone got any suggestions on how to write business application
> > to help someone with a B.A. in CS to get hired as a programmer. I
> > have some programming skills but not the full stuff everyone wants?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Jeff
> 
> Hi Jeff, 
> 
> There are lots of variables that go into picking your path.
> 
> How desperately do you need a job?  
> How much time are you willing to put into it?  
> How much can you spend on hardware/software before you get a job?  
> Do you want to be a god, and learn cool stuff, or just be a Visual Basic 
> programmer for the next 20 years?  
> 
> Here's my advice:
> 
> If you want to be *really* good, then learn to program in C, under UNIX. 
If 
> you start on UNIX, and start in C, you will likely master the skills
required 
> to quickly learn any new development environment, OS, or programming
language 
> that you will ever encounter.  (of course many of them you'll not like at

> that point, but it won't bother you much.)  After a couple of years,
you'll 
> get to the point where you can pick up a new language in about a week, if

> you're motivated to do so.
> 
> If you are still a student, get a copy of the OPENSTEP for MachOS 4.1 
> Academic Kit 
> OpenStep runs on intel PCs, but not just *any* pc -- check out the NeXT
web 
> site to make sure  hardware is supported BEFORE you buy hardware.  (same
goes 
> for any UNIX on intel).  Alternatively, you could buy a used NeXTstation
Mono 
> fairly cheap (get 32MB of RAM at least and a nice new 2gig disk put in
it).  
> check out:
> 
> 	Spherical Solutions   http://www.orb.com/
> 	DeepSpace Technologies   http://www.deepspacetech.com/
> 
> Both of these companies have good reputations for dealing in used NeXT 
> hardware.  
> 
> ($300 through your campus bookstore, if they don't have a clue, call NeXT
and 
> they'll help you help them figure it out).  
> 
> http://www.next.com
> (800) TRY-NEXT
> http://www.stepwise.com
> http://www.misckit.com
> ftp://next-ftp.peak.org
> 
> this will get you started.  buy the following books:
> 
> Teach Yourself C in 21 days
> Using C on the UNIX System  (O'Reilly & Associates http://www.ora.com)
> 
> Now, TYCin21Days used to be a really decent self-education book, there
may be 
> better ones now, i don't know.  I'm sure it's still OK.   UsingC is
great, 
> once you get the C basics.
> 
> Once you get up to speed in C, start right away with Objective-C under 
> OpenStep's way cool IDE (integrated development environment).  NeXT is a 
> niche player right now, but they were bought out by Apple in December,
and 
> are providing the foundation of Rhapsody - a new OS from Apple which will
run 
> on PowerMac and Intel based hardware.  It will be fun, cool, sexy, and
you 
> will enjoy programming in that environment (if you like programming.)
> 
> When you get to this point, (after you're up to speed in C, not before)
call 
> up Springer-Verlag (publisher) and get "NeXTSTEP Programming" by
Garfinkek & 
> Mahoney -- it's a bit out of date with respect to the NeXT programming 
> environment, but it's still an excellent introduction in most respects
(it's 
> very well written.)
> 
> If you're not a student, and don't know any, get a Linux box and start in
C, 
> then move to Java when you're up to speed in C.
> 
> Expect to work 2-3 hours a night, 5-6 nights a week (assuming you're FT 
> employed) and more if you can, for about 3 months before you're feeling
your 
> oats.  Don't be frustrated if nobody wants to hire you at that point. 
You'll 
> have a better understanding of what things you'll need to teach yourself
to 
> become valuable.  At that point you can start learning more about source
code 
> control systems, networking, other stuff.  Take some public domain apps
with 
> source code and modify them to make them do something you want.  
> 
> At some point you will have built up enough skills and confidence that
you 
> get hired as an entry level programmer and put through the grind.  
> 
> Best of Luck.
> 
> /gary
> --
> Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep, MachOS,
> PLATINUM Technologies, Inc.        | \ o.O|   Objective-C:
> l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=  
> (Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.
> 
> 
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From: Stefan Ried 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: mmap via vm_* ???
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 15:06:49 +0200
Organization: Max Plank Institut for Polymer Research
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Hi,


I'd like to compile mSQL 2.0 for my Next 4.2 System.

But there is no mmap included in mach. 

NeXTAnswer 1567 explains the corresponding vm_ routines to simulate
mmap.

Has anybody written a mmap for NeXT using the vm_ routines already ?

Thanks.


stefan


 ______________________________________________________________________
/Stefan Ried, MPI f. Polymerforschung, Postf.3148, 55021 Mainz, F.R.G. \
|                                       ... openstep, the biggest step |
| E-Mail  ried@mpip-mainz.mpg.de (MIME welcome) ...since the invention | 
| Telefon ++49 6131 379 267  Fax:++49 6131 379 340   ...of the __/___/ |
| Project working on pattern-formation in liquid crystals     /./\__/\\|
| WWW     http://www-theory.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/~ried   ...wheel\_/   \_/|
\______________________________________________________________________/
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From: sanguish@digifix.com (Scott Anguish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Getting OpenStep/Mach program to run on Windows 95
Date: 1 Jul 1997 03:41:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Fix Development
Message-ID: <5p9ua2$lku$1@news.digifix.com>
References:  <5p8fo9$scq@shelob.afs.com> 
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On 06/30/97, Eric Harley wrote:
>In article <5p8fo9$scq@shelob.afs.com>, Greg_Anderson@afs.com wrote:
>
>> Eric Harley writes
>> > Okay, I have an OpenStep application that I just wrote and would 
like to
>> > get it on Windows 95 without buying OpenStep for NT. Where and 
how do I
>> > get the shared libraries for doing this?
>> 
>> (1) The runtime is still not officially "free," so what you propose 
>>     to do is illegal on its face.
>
>What kind of time frame are the runtimes on?
>

	The release of the premier of Rhapsody from what I've been 
able to get out of various people at Apple.

>> (2) If you don't have OS/NT, then you don't have a binary 
executable 
>>     capable of running under Windows, so you're screwed either way. 
>>     Code compiled with the OS/Mach release will only run under 
Mach.
>
>But if I did have OS/NT then I could run the program under NT and 95?
>

	Only if you compile it under OS/NT



-- 
Scott Anguish  
NEXTSTEP/OpenStep Information 


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From: gvandyk@icon.co.za
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 1 Jul 1997 05:02:00 GMT
Organization: E.S. Systems cc (Financial Systems Development)
Lines: 25
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On 06/29/97, Christopher Wolf wrote:
>> I personally find the new PB _far_ superior to the old PB, and it's 
>> excruciating to go back nowadays when I have to do some 3.3 
>> development. I know a number of others who feel the same way. The 
>> new PB makes keeping the open files organized _much_ easier.

I couldn't agree with you more, however the editing capabilities has a 
lot to be desired. I agree it is much better that 3.3's PB but if 
you're used to Emacs or something similar then it is a real pain.

Then again PB is not an editor but a project management tool. I just 
wish they can extend PB to have the same type of integration to 
external editors that 3.3's PB had.

In particular when you highlight an error it should highlight the line 
in your editor of choice and not only in PB. It does however open the 
file in your editor of choice if you double click on the file.

-- 
Regards,
Gerrit van Dyk
email: gvandyk@icon.co.za (NeXTMail welcome)
E.S. Systems cc  
The OBJECT is the ADVANTAGE

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 1 Jul 1997 06:28:05 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 42
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On 06/30/97, gvandyk@icon.co.za wrote:
>On 06/29/97, Christopher Wolf wrote:
>>> I personally find the new PB _far_ superior to the old PB, and it's 
>>> excruciating to go back nowadays when I have to do some 3.3 
>>> development. I know a number of others who feel the same way. The 
>>> new PB makes keeping the open files organized _much_ easier.

I didn't write the above, just agreed with it.

>I couldn't agree with you more, however the editing capabilities has a 
>lot to be desired. I agree it is much better that 3.3's PB but if 
>you're used to Emacs or something similar then it is a real pain.

I'm actually pretty happy with the editor now although I agree it's nowhere near 
as powerful/flexible as emacs.  The things that I always missed horribly in 
Edit.app under 3.3 were the ability to select ranges of text using the keyboard 
and the ability to use Page-Up/Page-Down keys to page through the text.   Having 
to resort to the mouse to do these things always bugged me but the new 4.2 PB 
editor lets you do both from the kb so I don't have to take my hands away from 
it.

>Then again PB is not an editor but a project management tool. 

Then again Emacs isn't an editor but rather an operating system :-)

>I just 
>wish they can extend PB to have the same type of integration to 
>external editors that 3.3's PB had.

Yup, more flexibility like this would certainly be nice.



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: sockets in 3.3
From: apl@kcbbs.gen.nz (Andrew Lindesay)
Date: 1 Jul 97 04:52:09 GMT
Message-ID: <17497181.17529.22036@kcbbs.gen.nz>
Organization: Kappa Crucis Unix BBS, Auckland, New Zealand
Lines: 28

I'm writing a little program that listens on one socket and connects to
the same socket.  So both the client & server are in the same executable
NeXTSTEP app.  This means:

   (A)SERVER  <---connect--- (A)CLIENT

or

   (A)SERVER  <---CONNECT--- (B)CLIENT

or

   (A)SERVER  <---connect--- (A)CLIENT
              <---connect--- (B)CLIENT

Now the second scenario works; and I haven't tested multiple connections
yet.  Oh yer (A) and (B) are running processes of the executable.  This
program uses Mach threads so in my mind, a process _should_ be able to
connect a socket to itself!

Am I wrong in assuming this?

I suppose if I can't get it to work, I'll have to make a seperate Server
application which would make it a bit confusing for some users in a
single-use situation.

Andrew
(apl@kcbbs.gen.nz)
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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 1 Jul 1997 06:58:42 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
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In <5pa81l$n6q$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> Christopher Wolf wrote:
> Yup, more flexibility like this would certainly be nice.

Just to add my two cents, 4.x is definitely better (and it looks like it was 
going to be even more powerful; poke around in PB's nibs and you'll see all 
sorts of interesting panels.. hmmm) but I would really appreciate more 
integrated documentation support. AutoDoc comments are workable, but having a 
rtf.template and an indexed documentation editor would really be great.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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Organization: Internet MCI
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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EMP/ECP spam cancelled by hweede@berlin.snafu.de. This is an ongoing spam
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Shipping Frameworks
Message-ID: <33B7E8DE.7072@running-start.com>
From: Ralph Zazula 
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 10:11:58 -0700
Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com
References: <5ovjqk$75f$1@owl.slip.net>
Organization: Running Start, Inc.
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Hi -

You can include the .dll files for the frameworks inside of the app
wrapper.  If you have resources that need to be found, you would place
them in .app/Resources since the framework now thinks its wrapper is the
.app folder.

The potential gotcha here is frameworks that have the same name for a
resource...

Ralph
-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com

Steve Dekorte wrote:
> 
> I have an app that I'd like to distribute but it uses a number
> of frameworks which I don't want the end user to have to install.
> 
> Is there a way to statically link selected frameworks or to
> stick them in the app wrapper like bundles?
>
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From: sanjeev@ee.umr.edu (Sanjeev Agarwal)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Help: NXImage....
Date: 1 Jul 1997 10:32:03 GMT
Organization: UMR Missouri's Technological University
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Hi,
I have a problem. 
I am working on a image processing application on NextStep 3.2.
I am using NXImage class with NXBitmapImageRep to specify the
bitmap for the image. For this I provide the image data as
a unsigned char array to the "initData: pixelsWide: pixelsHigh:....
procedure of NXBitmapImageRep. Now I make some changes to the 
image data (by changing pixel value in the array)!! How do I
make it visible on the window. I mean when I say display 
should the changes not show up on the window???
Please help...
If I need to take some other path to composite the NXImage
please let me know...
Thanx in advance ...

Sanjeev
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 1 Jul 1997 14:10:53 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <5pb35d$6ui2@castor.cca.rockwell.com>
References: <5p12cg$ar2$3@nuke.csu.net>  
	<5p4hu3$4j0$1@gaea.omnigroup.com>
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The 4.2 Project Builder is still not all that reliable.  It crashes every few 
hours.  At least once a day, the debugger and Project Builder stop 
communicating and Project Builder must be restarted.  The colored syntax 
stuff occasionally gets it wrong.  I spent several minutes looking for a 
missing close quote because the syntax coloring told me my entire document 
was quoted.  Of course it was not.  The coloring was just wrong.


I really really miss the 3.3 debugger.  The 4.2 debugger is much less 
powerful.  Watch points no longer work.  future-break works unreliable.  
There is no browse mode.  When a program dies, there is no post-mortem (sp?). 
 The stack is lost and all symbol table info is lost.  (Are the frameworks 
unloaded ?)

Nevertheless, 4.2 Project Builder is still very productive and it crashes 
less that VC++.  I still get good work done.  I just miss some features.

By the way, has anyone else noticed that NeXT lost their polish somewhere 
between 3.3 and 4.0 ?  Everything used to be so well though out.  I feel like 
I am using an experimental system now.

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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Round Windows
Date: 1 Jul 1997 13:57:40 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
Lines: 11
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Cc: beauvois@usa.net

In  beauvois@usa.net wrote:
> 
> Following Thomas Poff's idea, I think round windows would be a very
> interesting addition.
> 
> But how would one implement such a thing ?
> 
Implement it as a transparent rectangular window and a clipping path.  You 
can have arbitrary shaped windows.  My personal favorite window is an eight 
pointed star.

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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 1 Jul 1997 18:19:36 GMT
Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc.
Lines: 18
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In <5p90bq$r1u$1@darla.visi.com> David Young wrote:
> I generally follow a policy where in all instance setFooBar:(NSObject 
> *)sender methods I retain (or copy) the incoming object (and release the 
> previous value). In methods that return a value, I usually do return 
> [[someValue copy] autorelease], unless there's a specific reason not to.

This was another question of mine and I'm glad that you brought it up!  I was 
wondering what guidelines there were (if any) for when to return an object, 
or when to return a copy of an object.  In general, is it always preferred to 
return a copy?  I know it is when working with distributed objects...


--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Mark Trombino             |  J A M S o f t                             |
|    mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  |  Audio DSP Tools for Openstep & Rhapsody   | 
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

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From: Dru Nelson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer,comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: Are these entry-level-job handicaps show-stoppers?"
Date: 1 Jul 1997 18:52:01 GMT
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I understand your situation (all too well I'm afraid.)

Anyhow, I think Mr. Longsine's advice is good. If you follow it you
will have much greater chances of getting a job. Also, you might
want to mention your location. This can be important sometimes when
looking for a future job.

Just keep learning, there is enough need out there for people who
can do things. The openstep market for programmers is starting
to pick up, so in 6 months it will be very healthy.

dnelson@slip.net

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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 1 Jul 1997 19:13:57 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
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In <5pbhno$cf4@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> Mark Trombino wrote:
> This was another question of mine and I'm glad that you brought it up!  I 
was 
> wondering what guidelines there were (if any) for when to return an object, 
> or when to return a copy of an object.  In general, is it always preferred 
to 
> return a copy?  I know it is when working with distributed objects...

If your instance variable is mutable then I would return a copy simply to 
avoid the having the return value changed (even though it might be cast as an 
immutable object on return, anything could happen...). In the case of 
immutable objects, they often implement -copy as -retain anyway, so it's not 
as though you'd incur a huge performance loss from "return [foo copy]" versus 
"return foo". If you return a copy, and then the calling method forgets to 
release, you're still a lot better off than if you had returned the original 
and the calling method released it.

The autorelease on return is just a policy I follow and is totally optional. 
Just be consistent with your policy and you should be fine.

Note that this doesn't make sense in all situations. There will be 
exceptions, like -[NSView subviews] and such.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Round Windows
Date: 1 Jul 1997 20:50:35 GMT
Organization: Information Resources and Technology
Lines: 34
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Hi,

So how do you start making a clear window?  Can you still use appkit and
use window type "plain_type" and take over it's drawing functions?

Or do you have to go _totally_ down to the postscript level?

Mainly I'm curious tho' if I get a good hint or too I'll build something
some weekend and post it to the peanuts site.

Thomas


Erik M. Buck (embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com) wrote:
: In  beauvois@usa.net wrote:
: > 
: > Following Thomas Poff's idea, I think round windows would be a very
: > interesting addition.
: > 
: > But how would one implement such a thing ?
: > 
: Implement it as a transparent rectangular window and a clipping path.  You 
: can have arbitrary shaped windows.  My personal favorite window is an eight 
: pointed star.


--
               <>+<>                 //////      __v__        __\/__
   `\|||/      /---\     """""""    | _ - |     (_____)   .  / ^  _ \  .
    (q p)     | o o |   <^-@-@-^>  (| o O |)   .( O O ),  |\| (o)(o) |/|
_ooO_<_>_Ooo_ooO_U_Ooo_ooO__v__Ooo_ooO_u_Ooo_ooO__(_)__Ooa__oOO_()_OOo___
[_____}_____!____.}_____{_____|_____}_____i____.}_____!_____{_____}_____]
__.}____.|_____{_____!____.}_____|_____{.____}_____|_____}_____|_____!___
[_____{_____}_____|_____}_____i_____}_____|_____}_____i_____{_____}_____]
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Source to ObjectAlloc.app .?.. and how to extend it
Date: 1 Jul 1997 23:10:54 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Hi,

What I was just wondering right now if there wouldn't be a way to make 
ObjectAlloc smarter and even better at tracking down these alloc problems 
that are coming up every now and then.

ObjectAlloc already traces all "alloc" method...so I am ondering what if the 
could be coupled with GDB and then if would somehow record which obejct did 
send the alloc/release/autorelease messages...and then in an then allow you 
to trace down a badly release object if you have zombies enabled.

In really hard cases it could even record some kind of stackframe or calling 
hierarchy so that could actually see which methods have been envolved in 
release and retaining that specific instance.

I am not able to find the source for ObejctAlloc...and I'm wondering I 
"Apple" would be willingto release if via NeXTanswers so that we could try to 
put that in on our own...our even better...if they find the time they could 
add something similar themself.

Or is there a public source for an app which does the same thing..actually it 
seems to be fairly trivial at first glance.

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: noyau*NOSPAM*@*NOSPAM*apple.com (Eric Noyau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Source to ObjectAlloc.app .?.. and how to extend it
Date: 2 Jul 1997 00:47:30 GMT
Organization: Apple Computer, Inc.
Lines: 19
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In article <5pc2pu$ni7$1@concorde.ctp.com>  
tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel) writes:
> Hi,
> 
> [...]
> ObjectAlloc already traces all "alloc" method...so I am ondering what if
> the could be coupled with GDB and then if would somehow record which 
> obejct did send the alloc/release/autorelease messages...and then in an 
> then allow you to trace down a badly release object if you have zombies 
> enabled.
> 
> In really hard cases it could even record some kind of stackframe or 
> calling hierarchy so that could actually see which methods have been 
> envolved in release and retaining that specific instance.
> [...]

The command line tool 'oh' is doing exactly that. Try 'man oh'.

-- Eric
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Article cancelled as EMP/ECP, exceeding a BI of 20.  A report will be
published shortly on news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

Sick-O-Spam, Spam-B-Gon!
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From: iboehme@abm08.abm.de (Ivo Boehme)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 2 Jul 1997 07:50:41 GMT
Organization: Nacamar Data Communications
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References: <5p12cg$ar2$3@nuke.csu.net>  <5p4hu3$4j0$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <5p567o$7m4$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5pa308$2on$1@hermes.is.co.za> <5pa81l$n6q$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
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cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
> On 06/30/97, gvandyk@icon.co.za wrote:
> >On 06/29/97, Christopher Wolf wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> I'm actually pretty happy with the editor now although I agree it's nowhere near 
> as powerful/flexible as emacs.  The things that I always missed horribly in 
> Edit.app under 3.3 were the ability to select ranges of text using the keyboard 
> and the ability to use Page-Up/Page-Down keys to page through the text.   Having 
                                 ^^^^^^^^^
Page-Down was present in 3.3 (Control-v). Page-Up was possible in 3.2 or maybe 3.1,
I think (Alternate-v). Line-Selection is Command-1 in 3.3, which I use frequently
(both 3.3 and line-selection ;-)) Just to mention it. 

> to resort to the mouse to do these things always bugged me but the new 4.2 PB 
> editor lets you do both from the kb so I don't have to take my hands away from 
> it.
> 



--- Ivo
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From: ians@cam-ani.co.uk (Ian Stephenson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Round Windows
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 10:09:10 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Animation Systems Ltd
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In article <5pbqir$cfp$1@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas  
Poff) writes:
> Hi,
> 
> So how do you start making a clear window?  Can you still use appkit and
> use window type "plain_type" and take over it's drawing functions?

NeXTAnswers says you can't do it. (it goes on to say it could be added,  
but they've just got far better things to do).

The recommended workaround is to grab the background off the screen, and  
draw it inside a square window, then draw your contents over the top.

$an
####################################################################
Subject: Re: CVS and .nib files
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
References: <5p0g4q$dlh@fido.transit.ru> <5p0sdu$nea@iserver.stem.com>
In-Reply-To: <5p0sdu$nea@iserver.stem.com>
From:  vincent@sente.ch (Vincent Kohler)
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Date: 2 Jul 97 13:27:40 GMT
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.next.programmer:25158 comp.sys.next.software:30157

On 06/27/97, dbriggs@stem.com wrote:
>
>Hello, Vladimir -- & others who use CVS on NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP
>
>rtr@user.transit.ru (transit shell) wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>Could anybody suggest me how to wrap/unwrap .nib files to store them into 
cvs
>>repository?
>>
>>Thank you in advance.
>>
>>Vladimir
>
[..]

>A SOLUTION:
>Bob Vadnais wrote a Palette for InterfaceBuilder, called CVSPalette.

[..]

Another solution is to configure correctly the cvswrappers file within 
$CVSROOT/ in order to have a real wrapped nib. This option works well, 
too. Unfortunately it won't work in client/server because cvswrappers 
are not supported under this mode.

I had some bad experience with CVSPalette which didn't copied the CVS subdir 
in a reliable way, at least with my configuration.

Cvswrappers are very useful for diagram, quantrix and others wrapped files.

Here is an extract of my cvswrappers:

*.nib  -f '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/unwrap %s' -t '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/wrap %s \
%s' -m 'COPY'
*.rtfd -f '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/unwrap %s' -t '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/wrap %s \
%s' 
*.draw -f '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/unwrap %s' -t '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/wrap %s \
%s'
*.quantrix -f '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/unwrap %s' -t '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/wrap \
%s %s' -m 'COPY'
 
Regards

Vincent

-- 
----------------------------------------
Vincent Kohler	vincent@sente.ch	(NextMail welcome)
Sen:te		
Parc Scientifique	- EPFL -	Switzerland

####################################################################
Subject: Re: (PB) EOF NLS_LANG
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
References: 
In-Reply-To: 
From:  vincent@hnw.sente.ch (Vincent Kohler)
X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00000-01
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Date: 2 Jul 97 13:30:24 GMT
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On 06/23/97, Moukdarath Valerie wrote:
>I work on NeXTstep 3.2 and EOF 1.1 and Oracle 7.1
>
>My oracle NLS_LANG is american_america.we8dec
>
>I don't know what NLS_LANG to use on EOF to read correctely my date
>
>ex : "Boite de crme  t" in my database is not the same when I 
read it with EOF.
>
>
> may be replace by "Y" or "" it depends on what caracter set i use.
>
>valrie
>


We used the following option in a project to keep a consistent 
character set

NLS_LANG = AMERICAN_AMERICA.WE8ISO8859P1

BTW, your e-mail was wrong is your post

Regards

Vincent

-- 
----------------------------------------
Vincent Kohler	vincent@sente.ch	(NextMail welcome)
Sen:te		
Parc Scientifique	- EPFL -	Switzerland

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From: sg13@rcs.urz.tu-dresden.de (Steffen Greiffenberg)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Accessing a Selected EObjectValue with Openstep
Date: 2 Jul 1997 14:16:18 GMT
Organization: TU Dresden (URZ)
Lines: 23
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X-Newsreader: Alexandra.app (Version 0.82)

hi,

i'm trying to display a stringvalue from a table with openstep. With NeXT i used the function objectForKey. 
After trying:

	NSRunAlertPanel(@"FULLNAME", [[theTable selectedObject] valueForKey:@"FULLNAME"], 0, 0, 0);

i recieve the following message:

	*** Assertion failure in -[NSTextFieldCell _objectValue:forString:], NSCell.m:864
	Invalid parameter not satisfying: aString != nil

the key "FULLNAME" is an attribute. The id "theTable" is connected with the EOModel where FULLNAME is defined 
as an VARCHAR2(100) an connected with NSString.

What goes wrong here? Can anybody help? 


TIA
Steffen


Please replay directly to sg13@rcs.urz.tu-dresden.de
####################################################################
Subject: Looking for an expert system shell
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
From: marco@sente.ch (Marco Scheurer)
X-Url: http://www.sente.ch/
Organization: Sen:te
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Date: 2 Jul 97 14:49:50 GMT
Lines: 15
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Hi,

I'm looking for an expert system shell I could easily use with 
NEXTSTEP 3.3. More specifically, I am looking for a forward chaining 
inference engine.

Any reference to available systems, source code, commercial or not 
would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

-- 
Marco Scheurer (marco@sente.ch)
Sen:te

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From: ftouhi@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Majid Ftouhi)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: file bool.h
Date: 2 Jul 1997 16:56:58 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal
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hi there:

	if you have the file:
	
	/usr/local/lib/g++-include/bool.h

send it to me please

Thanks in advance

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From: robdoss@nvc.cc.ca.us (Robert C. Doss)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: Converitng Mach-O to S-Records
Date: 2 Jul 1997 18:18:25 GMT
Organization: Napa Valley College
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I'm looking for a utility which would convert the Mach-O object files
produced by /bin/as into Motorola S-Record format. I intend to program
my embedded MC680xx processor on my NeXT using Motorola /bin/as but I
need to have the object file be an S-Record so I can burn the ROMs on
my embedded system. Let me make this clear: I do not intend to run the
program under NEXTSTEP, instead I want to run it on an embedded system
with software developed ubder NEXTSTEP.
-- 
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
|Robert C. Doss Jr. |Internet:RobDoss@nvc.cc.ca.us|NeXT mail & MIME ok|
|Napa Valley College|Fax: (707) 253-3063          |MIME mail preferred|
*---------------------------------------------------------------------*
k that .spa-am and nospam to reply.)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: HDDL9@VSEZD.V7G0X
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Get rich on the net
Date: 21 JUN 1997 22:51:03 +0200
Organization: Unisource Espana NEWS SERVER
Lines: 228
Message-ID: <5ohevu$1h2$39@talia.mad.ibernet.es>
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: FreeMail Beta 1.145

Dear Friend,



Greetings!  I am a retired Attorney, and about two years ago a man came
to me with a letter.  The letter he brought me is basically the letter
in your hands.  He asked me to verify the fact that this letter was
legal.  I told him that I would review it and get back to him.  When I
first read the letter my client brought me I thought it was some
off-the-wall idea to make money.  However, a week and-a-half later we
met in my office to discuss the issue.  I told him the letter he
originally brouht to me was not 100% legal.  I suggested a few changes
with which the letter would be 100% legal.


I was curious about this letter, and my client told me how this plan
works and suggested that I give it a try.  I thought it was a long shot
and would be a wast of time, so I decided against participating.
However, before my client left, I asked him to keep me updated of his
results.  About two months later he called me to tell me he had received
over $800,000 in cash!!  I didn't believe him, so he suggested that I
try this idea and find out for myself.  I thought about it for a couple
of days and decided that I didn't really have anything to lose, so I
asked my client for a copy of the letter.  I followed the instructions
exactly, sent out 200 copies, and sure enough, the money started
arriving!  It came slowly at first, but after 3 weeks, I was getting
more mail than I could open in a day!  The money stopped coming after
about three months.  I kept a precise record of my earnings, and they
totaled $968,498.00!!


I was earning a good living as a lawyer, but anyone in the legal
profession, or even anyone who owns their own business will tell you,
there is a lot of stress that comes with the job.  I told myself that if
things worked out, I would retire from my job and travel.  I decided to
try the letter again, but this time I sent out 500 letters.  Well ,
three months later, my earnings totaled $2,344,178.00!!!  I just could
not believe it.  I met with my former client (and now my friend) for
lunch to find out how it worked.  He told me there are quite a few
similar letters going around.  What made THIS ONE DIFFERENT WAS THE FACT
THAT 6 ADDRESSES APPEAR ON THE LIST, AND NOT 5 LIKE MOST OF THE OTHERS.
This fact alone results in your name being on far more returns.  Of
course I was thankful that he had shown this plan to me, but he was just
as thankful that I had suggested the changes to ensure that this plan
was legal since most people don't want to risk doing something illegal.


I'll bet that by now you are curious to know the little change I
suggested in my friend's original letter.  Well, if you send a letter
like this out, to be legal you must actually sell a product or service
if you expect to receive a dollar.  I told my friend that anyone sending
a dollar back to him must receive something in return.  You have
received this letter due to the participation of each of the 6 persons
given below.  This letter and the plan given within this letter are a
"product" that you have received.  Thus, you will be sending $1.00 to
each of the 6 persons given below in exchange for receiving this letter
and for asking them to provide the "service" of adding you on their
mailing list.


THIS IS A SERVICE AND IS 100% LEGAL BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY WHICH IS
COVERED IN TITLE 18, SECTION 1302 AND 1342 OF THE POSTAL AND LOTTERY
LAWS.



NOW, PLEASE FOLLOW THESE TRIED AND TRUE STEPS TO OBTAIN THE AMOUNT YOU
DESIRE:


1) Immediately send a $1 dollar bill to each of the 6 people on the list
below. Wrap this dollar in a note with the words: "Please put me on your
mailing list." (Remember, in this way, you're not just sending a dollar
to someone; you're paying for a legitimate service.)  Include your
address.  You do not need to include your name.  This is the key to the
program! Also, let each person know what number they are in the letter
so he/she knows which cycle he is receiving the $1.00 from.  Make sure
that you retain EVERY name and or address sent to you, either on
computer or hard copy, but do not discard the names and notes that
people send to you.  This is PROOF that you are truly providing a
service, and should the I.R.S. or some other government agency question
you, you can provide them with this proof!  Therefore you will start a
list of all the people who send you a dollar requesting to be added on a
mailing list.  Actually, you will want to safeguard this list because it
can generate even better responses and much more money later!  See step
#4 below.


2) Remove the name next to the #1 on the list, and move the rest of the
names up one position.  Then place your name in the #6 spot.  Thus, #6
becomes #5, #4 becomes #3, etc., and YOU will be #6 on the list. DO NOT
EDIT THIS LETTER ANYMORE BEYOND THIS POINT.  When you are mailing this
letter, you may edit the references to the internet.


3) Post this letter in at least 250 newsgroups, I do 5 groups per post.
You can simply copy the contents of this letter and past it to the
newsgroups of your choice.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Please pay attention to the newsgroups in which you
post.  If there is an abundance of similar letters, you may want to seek
another newsgroup. Thus, pat respect to the harmony of the newsgroup and
use common sense.  There are plenty of newsgroups on the Internet.  (I
think there are close to 18,000 of them.)  ALSO, PLEASE POST IN
APPROPRIATE GROUPS AND SPREAD YOUR POSTINGS OVER MANY DIFFERENT LOCAL &
INTERNATIONAL AREAS (SPREAD THE WORD)!
For added success, you can also mail this letter as well, in addition to
posting in newsgroups. Order 200 (or more) names from a mailing list
company.  Two that have been most effective for these names are:


         S.E. Mailing List              Advon Distributors
         P.O. Box 15061                 P.O. Box B-11
         Ft. Lauderdale, FL  33318S     Helly, ID  83274
         (954) 742-9519                 (800) 992-3866


4. Keep a copy of this letter so you can use it a second time.  Also
keep EACH AND EVERY NAME AND ADDRESS SENT TO YOU as instructed in #1.
Then, send out more copies in about 6 months, but mail it to the
addresses you receive (your new mailing list) with each dollar!  It will
work again, only much better!


Here are the addresses that you must send a dollar to with your slip of
paper requesting placement on their mailing list, as instructed above:


        1.  Ron van Hoof
                14 Moshier St.
                Greenwich, CT 06831
                USA


        2.  Richard Blanchette
                Pob 455
                Palisade, Colorado
                81520
                USA


        3.  Caroline Mowinckel
                Molnar Utca 21
                2 Em Nr-10
                H-1056 Budapest
                Hungary


        4. Odd Hilsen
                Avda Espana 93
                Sitio de Calahonda
                Mijas Costa - Malaga
                Spain


        5. Peter Kjoge
                Camino de la Condesa 9, 5-A
                E-29640 Fuengirola
                Spain


***THIS PLAN WILL NOT WORK UNLESS YOU SEND $1.00 TO EACH OF THE ABOVE
PERSONS AS DIRECTED.


How do the numbers work for potential income earnings?
Assume for the sake of example that you get a 7.5% return rate.  This is
a very conservative, my first attempt was about 9.5%, and my second was
over 11%.

1.  You send out 250 letters, and 18 people (250 x 7.5% = 18) will send
$1 each.  $18.00


2.  Those 18 send out 250 letters each, and 337 people (18 x 250 =
4,500x 7.5% = 337), send you $1 each.  $337.00


3.  Those 337 send out 250 letters each (337 x 250 = 84,250 x 7.5% =
6,318), and 6,318 people send you $1 each.  $6,318


4.  Those 6,318 send out 250 letters each (6,318 x 250 = 1,579,500 x
7.5% = 118,462), and 118,462 people send you $1 each.  $118,462.00


5.  Those 118,462 send out 250 letters each (118,462 x 250 = 29,615,500
x 7.5% = 2,221,162), and 2,221,162 people send you $1 each.
$2,221,162.00


                ADD 1-5 AND TOTAL AT $2,346,297.50


ALL THIS IS AT A 7.5% RETURN ON YOUR LETTERS.  THAT'S 18 REPLIES ON YOUR
ORIGINAL 250 POSTINGS.


Some valuable, general suggestions:

1.  DO NOT TRY AND CHEAT THIS PROCESS.  IF YOU DO, YOU WILL NOT ACHIEVE
THE DISIRED RESULTS.

2.  The Internet is a very effective medium for exposing this vehicle.
However, pay attention to newsgroups, and avoid posting this letter in
the newsgroups where there are a lot of upset epeople complaining about
"spamming."  In other words, we are asking that you use common sense,
and have courtesy to others on the Internet.  This may be opposite of
what many other similar postings may be saying.  Keep in mind that there
are plenty of people out there who believe and want this as much as you
do.

3.  Keep a positive frame of mind while engaging in this process, and
you will receive the amount of money you desire.

4.  In order to achieve maximum results DO NOT CHANGE THE CONTENTS OF
THIS LETTER.  However, you may edit applicable portions relating to
Internet when sending this letter via regular mail.

5.  When the money begins to arrive, it is a good gesture to give 10% or
more to your church or favorite charity with a joyful spirit.
The Internet has proved to be a very quick and effective means to reach
millions of people with your message.  This message exemplifies a
UNIVERSAL LAW OF ABUNDANCE that there is plenty to go around for
everyone.  You will not be hurting anyone and will be creating the
opportunity for those who read your message to benefit--just as you
will--from the abundance that exists in this universe.


####################################################################
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From: oloft@hegel1.cs.chalmers.se.cs.chalmers.se (Olof Torgersson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: libfl on NT?
Date: 2 Jul 1997 18:36:38 GMT
Organization: Chalmers University of Technology
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5pe73m$eh8$1@nyheter.chalmers.se>
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Hi,

I'm trying to convert a 3.3 project using flex and bison generated files to
OPENSTEP. I managed to do it for mach, but I would also like to port it
to NT.

While flex and bison seems to come with NextDeveloper I can find no libfl
needed to link the resulting programs.

Does such a library exist for NT and if so, where can I find it?

Olof Torgersson

---


Olof Torgersson			                oloft@cs.chalmers.se
Department of Computing Science                 +46 31 772 54 06
Gteborg University & Chalmers University of Technology
S-412 96 GTEBORG, SWEDEN
http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~oloft/

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From: allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)
Subject: Re: Round Windows
Message-ID: 
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Cc: mpaque@wco.com
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Organization: ALI Technologies
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 18:50:23 GMT
References: <5pbqir$cfp$1@nuke.csu.net> <5pe56t$1tp@mpaque.mpaque> 
X-Newsreader: RadicalNews (TM) 0.9.1 Beta(i)
Lines: 32

In comp.sys.next.programmer Mike Paquette wrote:
> In article <5pbqir$cfp$1@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas  
> Poff) writes:
> > So how do you start making a clear window?  Can you still use appkit and
> > use window type "plain_type" and take over it's drawing functions?
> 
> 	/* Checked for 4.2 OPENSTEP for Mach */
> 	NSWindow * funkyWindow;
> 	funkyWindow = [[NSWindow alloc] initWithContentRect:frame
> 				styleMask:NSBorderlessWindowMask
> 				backing:NSBackingStoreNonretained
> 				defer:NO];
> 	PSsetautofill(NO, [funkyWindow windowNumber]);
> 	[funkyWindow makeKeyAndOrderFront:self];
> 	
> 	/* At this point, funkyWindow is on-screen and filled with the
> 	 * contents of the windows beneath it.  You can play with drawing
> 	 * into it's contentView.
> 	 */
> 

Unfortunately, this only works until the user the window is moved.

Snarfing the background as the window is on the hoof is pretty
hard to accomplish.  Of course, if the window can't be moved,
then this isn't a problem.

--
Allan Noordvyk, Software Artisan        e-mail: allan@ali.bc.ca
ALI Technologies                        Voice: 604.821.6317
Richmond, Canada                        Fax:   604.279.5468

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From: SLKUJF@DSOIUFD.COM
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: 800 SERVICE AT 7.9 CENTS PER MINUTE!
Date: 2 Jul 1997 21:30:06 GMT
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From: yuwaraj@ecf.toronto.edu (Murugathas Yuwaraj)
Subject: Q:Java development in NS3.0?
Sender: news@ecf.toronto.edu (News Administrator)
Message-ID: 
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 14:43:29 GMT
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Lines: 8

Hello everyone,

Could someone tell me if JDK is available for NS3.0?

Thank you kindly.

Cheers,
Thas
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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer,comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: Are these entry-level-job handicaps show-stoppers?"
Message-ID: <33B98E02.5859@running-start.com>
From: Ralph Zazula 
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 16:08:50 -0700
Reply-To: zazula@running-start.com
References: <332DA1F1.41A4@hom.net> <5h7eed$ntq$1@news.platinum.com> <01bc85a2$01ec70c0$bc65a8c6@metnews.hip.cam.org>
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Hi -

Mark wrote:
> 
> A few months back Gary Longsine posted a thoughtful, detailed response
> (quoted at the bottom of this post) in reply to somebody wondering about
> getting an entry-level programming job.
> 
> I'm wondering  if he or anyone else would like to comment on my situation -
> it's similar but with a difference:  I don't have the CS degree.
> 
> I lack no confidence that with some diligent work I can become competent in
> Unix programming, Objective-C, the OpenStep API, and fundamental OOP
> principles.
> 
[...]

Here are some thoughts - there are many different roles to be filled in
a large software development organization.  You may find that you can
find a path to becoming a software engineer by starting with a position
in:

	- support
	- testing
	- release control
	- training
	- system installation/setup (e.g., grunt)
	- pre-sales support

If there is a particular company you want to work for, you may want to
search out these types of positions.  The real key is to leverage your
insider position to learn as much as you can about the platform and make
sure you take time to learn new skills.

Chances are, companies will encourage you to move to higher-skilled
positions.  It is up to you to make them notice you.  Once you have
established yourself as a compentent contributor, things like the
lacking degree should become less of a barrier.

Ralph
-- 
Ralph Zazula
Running Start, Inc.
zazula@running-start.com
520/760-4890 (4891 FAX)
http://www.running-start.com
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From: szallies@gehirnbrei.energotec.de (Constantin Szallies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: CVS and .nib files
Date: 1 Jul 1997 15:04:08 GMT
Organization: Technet GmbH
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <5pb698$osk$1@oxygen.technet.net>
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dbriggs@stem.com wrote:
>
>Hello, Vladimir -- & others who use CVS on NEXTSTEP and OPENSTEP
>
>rtr@user.transit.ru (transit shell) wrote:
>>Hi,
>>
>>Could anybody suggest me how to wrap/unwrap .nib files to store them into 
cvs
>>repository?
>>
>>Thank you in advance.
>>
>>Vladimir
>
>THE PROBLEM:
>GNU's CVS (Concurrent Version System) is useful for archiving source
>code and documentation. It has trouble with InterfaceBuilder, though. 
>InterfaceBuilder destroys the CVS information inside the *.nib files 
>(directories) when it modifies a *.nib. (Actually, it fails to 
>copy the CVS stuff from the old version of the *.nib into the new.) 
>Consequently, one can archive a *.lproj directory with CVS, but if 
>one checks out a version, then modifies its *.nib files, and then 
>tries to archive the new version, -- frustration! 
>

SOLUTION 2:

To solve the nib file problem, checkout the file cwswrappers in the 
repository CVSROOT and add the following lines:

*.nib  -f '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/unwrap %s' -t '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/wrap %s %s'
*.rtfd -f '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/unwrap %s' -t '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/wrap %s %s'
*.draw -f '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/unwrap %s' -t '$CVSROOT/CVSROOT/wrap %s %s'
*.tiff -m 'COPY'
*.eps -m  'COPY'
*.snd -m  'COPY'

Then commit.

The binaries wrap and unwrap come with the cvs distribution and go into the 
CVSROOT directory. Works well. We are using local cvs + NFS imported 
repository.

Greetings
-- 
# Constantin Szallies, Energotec GmbH
# szallies@energotec.de
# 49211-9144018
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From: leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (Leigh Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: PB V4.2 continue-after-error preference missing?
Date: 3 Jul 1997 03:08:52 GMT
Organization: The University of Western Australia
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Apologies if this is a FAQ:

I'm on the OS4.2 PR2 (Prelude...) and can't find the ProjectBuilder Continue 
After Error preference that is described in the OpenStep conversion release 
notes as in the Preferences panel under Build. Scoping my question up a 
level: How can I get PB to give me all the errors at once, rather one at a 
time?

Many thanks
--
Leigh                 Computer Science, University of Western Australia
Smith                 +61-9-9380-3778 leigh@cs.uwa.edu.au (NeXTMail/MIME)

"Home pages are the pet rock of the 90s.  We all have them, we all think
 they're very cute.  But in a few years we're going to look back and be
 pretty embarrassed." -- Tony Shepps 
"Why wait?" -- Peter Langston

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 3 Jul 1997 03:33:38 GMT
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 07/01/97, Ivo Boehme wrote:

>Page-Down was present in 3.3 (Control-v). Page-Up was possible in 3.2 or 
>maybe 3.1, I think (Alternate-v). Line-Selection is Command-1 in 3.3, which I 
>use frequently (both 3.3 and line-selection ;-)) Just to mention it. 


Well I guess you learn something new everyday.  Thanks.  Will have to try it 
since I still use 3.3 every day at my day job.

- Chris



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
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From: arti@address.in.signature (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: libfl on NT?
Date: 3 Jul 1997 04:56:28 GMT
Organization: LavaNet, Inc.
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oloft@hegel1.cs.chalmers.se.cs.chalmers.se (Olof Torgersson) wrote:
>
> I'm trying to convert a 3.3 project using flex and bison generated files to
> OPENSTEP. I managed to do it for mach, but I would also like to port it
> to NT.

    flex and bison are included with OS/NT, so no additional libraries are 
needed.  However, we had been using flex 2.5.2 under NS 3.3 because it's so 
much nicer than the old BSD lex included with NS.  To our dismay, when we 
ported to NT, our flex source would no longer compile under the flex included 
with OS/NT.  The reason is that the flex version is VERY OLD and we were 
taking advantage of newer flex features.  It's so old that it doesn't respond 
to the --version flag.  It still uses flex.skel from 1990!

    So you may need to rewrite your flex source somewhat.  Not sure about 
bison because we had been using NS 3.3's yacc.
-- 
Art Isbell                       NeXT/MIME Mail: arti at lava dot net
Trego Systems (for whom I don't speak)     Voice/Fax: +1 808 394 0511
OPENSTEP/NT                               Voice Mail: +1 808 394 0495
   managed care solutions            US Mail: Honolulu, HI 96825-2638
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From: gvandyk@icon.co.za
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Round Windows
Date: 3 Jul 1997 05:33:46 GMT
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In comp.sys.next.programmer Mike Paquette wrote:
> In article <5pbqir$cfp$1@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu 
(Thomas  
> Poff) writes:
> > So how do you start making a clear window?  Can you still use 
appkit and
> > use window type "plain_type" and take over it's drawing functions?
> 
> 	/* Checked for 4.2 OPENSTEP for Mach */
> 	NSWindow * funkyWindow;
> 	funkyWindow = [[NSWindow alloc] initWithContentRect:frame
> 				styleMask:NSBorderlessWindowMask
> 				backing:NSBackingStoreNonretained
> 				defer:NO];
> 	PSsetautofill(NO, [funkyWindow windowNumber]);
> 	[funkyWindow makeKeyAndOrderFront:self];
> 	
> 	/* At this point, funkyWindow is on-screen and filled with the
> 	 * contents of the windows beneath it.  You can play with 
drawing
> 	 * into it's contentView.
> 	 */
> 

Is PSsetautofill() supported under NT. The reason I am asking is that 
I have a window that also needs to be "transparent". I am using 
PSsetautofill() and everything works very well, except that I get a 
warning everytime I compile stating that PSsetautofill is not defined. 
I then looked in the documentation and couldn't find anything either.

I am running OS4.1 for mach
-- 
Regards,
Gerrit van Dyk
email: gvandyk@icon.co.za (NeXTMail welcome)
E.S. Systems cc  
The OBJECT is the ADVANTAGE

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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CVS and .nib files
Date: 3 Jul 1997 08:35:10 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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In article <5pfda8$3hg$1@hermes.is.co.za> gvandyk@icon.co.za writes:
> On 07/02/97, Vincent Kohler wrote:
> 
> I am doing the same and I agree it works very well. I also had a lot 
> of problems with CVSPalette, sometimes it wrote the CVS files and 
> sometimes it didn't, totally iconsistent, so I started using wrappers.

Well, the palette must actually be loaded for it to work.
It seems IB won't actually load a palette until requested (ie: selected).
If you want to do this (and wrappers *really *are *better (most of the  
time(*))) in your CVSIBFixes palette, you could put in something like  
this, which makes your palette the one selected at startup, and therefor  
guaranteed to be loaded:
// NSApp notifications

- (void)applicationWillTerminate:(NSNotification*)aNotification
{
    /* Tasks:
    1) read the defaults and see where I sit in the array of loaded  
palettes
    2) set the active palette to be that index.
       the two keys are: ActivePalette and Palettes
       my name is CVSIBFixes (I could also use [self class]...)
    */
    NSUserDefaults* theDefaults = [NSUserDefaults standardUserDefaults];
    NSArray* palettesArray = [theDefaults arrayForKey:@"Palettes"];
    NSEnumerator* myEnum = [palettesArray reverseObjectEnumerator]; // I'm  
guessing we're likely to be near the end!
    id anObject;

    while (anObject = [myEnum nextObject]) {
        // see if we are contained in that string
        //NSLog(@"Enumerating...current object is: %@", [anObject  
description]);
        if ([anObject rangeOfString:@"CVSIBFixes"].length) { 	// if not  
there, range will be 0
            break;
        }
    }

    [theDefaults setInteger:[palettesArray indexOfObject:anObject]  
forKey:@"ActivePalette"];

    [theDefaults synchronize];
    
    return;
}

Indeed, the whole palette can be done in three notifications (IB's
- (void)docWillSave:(NSNotification *)aNotification
- (void)docDidSave:(NSNotification *)aNotification
and the aforementioned NSApp's:
- (void)applicationWillTerminate:(NSNotification*)aNotification
and an NSFileManager.  The only issue involved is making it run on NT as  
well...and even that's not too hard

(*) footnote if you're paying attention: if you're using the SCM module in  
PB, and you try to check in several nibs at once, some can get screwed up.
We don't know why, but probably some notification/tomeout deal.
Anyway, if you're using SCM, I find it behhoves one to check in each  
modified nib separately.

-------
 /\/\   Dave Coyle   
/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / /  118/119 Lower Baggot Street
 \/\/   Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
        Tel: +353 1 607 9008    WWW:  http://www.ctp.com>
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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Round Windows
Date: 3 Jul 1997 08:39:37 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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In article  allan@ali.bc.ca (Allan Noordvyk)  
writes:
> In comp.sys.next.programmer Mike Paquette wrote:

> > 
> 
> Unfortunately, this only works until the user the window is moved.
> 

Exactly: look at the click-for-help in (e.g.) PB.  When you get the big  
yellow help text, move the window out from under it: watch the shadow on  
the help box carefully...  ;-)

(thanks to Georg who pointed this out)

May the Force be with you!
Dave

-------
 /\/\   Dave Coyle   
/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / /  118/119 Lower Baggot Street
 \/\/   Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
        Tel: +353 1 607 9008    WWW:  http://www.ctp.com>
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From: jwdb@fygir.nl (Jan-Willem de Bruijn)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: [Q] Can a window without a title bar be dragged
Date: 3 Jul 1997 10:47:15 GMT
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In NEXTSTEP 3.3 the Window class had a method dragFrom::eventNum:
allowing windows to be dragged by clicking the mouse somewhere other
than the title bar.
After running the OpenStep conversion scripts the code has somehow
changed to dragFromPoint:eventNumber:, but NSWindow does not recognize
this.
Does anybody know of a way around this?

Thanks in advance,

-- 
Jan-Willem de Bruijn  -   F   Y   G   I   R    logistic information systems
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From: embuck@palmer.cca.rockwell.com (Erik M. Buck)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Round Windows
Date: 3 Jul 1997 14:37:16 GMT
Organization: Rockwell Collins
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To make a transparent window do the following - 

{
  NSImage			*image;
  NSBitmapImageRep		*bitmap;
  NSRect			grabRect;

  [myWindow setFrame:aRect display:NO];

  /* Grab the screen bits into the window. */
  [myWindow orderFrontRegardless];
  PSsetautofill(NO, [myWindow windowNumber]);
  [myWindow orderOut:nil];
  [myWindow orderFrontRegardless];

  /* Read the bits from the window */
  [[myWindow contentView] lockFocus];
  grabRect = [[myWindow contentView] bounds];
  bitmap = [[NSBitmapImageRep alloc] initWithFocusedViewRect:grabRect];
  [[myWindow contentView] unlockFocus];

  image = [[NSImage alloc] initWithSize:grabRect.size];
  [image addRepresentation:bitmap];
  [[myWindow contentView] setImage:image];

  PSsetautofill(YES, [myWindow windowNumber]);
  [myWindow display];
}

myWindow can contain any sub-Views.  If a sub View is not opaque, the 
background will show through.  The Views can have any clipping path including 
spline curves, text etc.

Use - windowWillResize:toSize: -windowWillMove: etc to recapture the 
background when the window changes.

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From: szallies@gehirnbrei.energotec.de (Constantin Szallies)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 1 Jul 1997 13:52:15 GMT
Organization: Technet GmbH
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mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino) wrote:
>I believe that I finally have a handle on how/when to properly retain objects 
>in OpenStep:  

Some people don't consider reference counting as garbage collection (GC) because retain 
cycles are not collected.
And because you have to manually send "retain" and "release", OpenStep's GC is not so 
comfortable and secure as in Java. But well .. you get 80 per cent of the advantages 
for only 20 % of the costs!

>Using the combination of +(id)alloc and -(id)init increments the object ref 
>count to 1. So does creating an object by copying another. Using special 
>creater methods such as +(NSArray *)array or +(NSDictionary *)dictionary do 
>not, so you need to retain them explicitly if you need them to hang around.

Methods like +(NSArray *)array are really alloc/init plus autorelease.
This means that the returned object has a reference count of one and is included in 
some NSAutoReleasePool once. Then the pool is destroyed, the object receives "release" 
once. This makes "autorelease" a deferred "release" -- at least if the pool is 
eventually destroyed.


>Is this correct?  If so, then WHY is it this way?  It seems to me that it 
>would make more sense if you retained every object you wanted to keep.  I'm 
>sure, however, that there is some reason why it isn't that way.  Can someone 
>fill me in?

If you want to keep an array 
  1)   use alloc/init or
  2)   +(NSArray *)array plus retain. 
      This increases the reference count to two and after the pool is destroyed, 
      the count drops to one.

The autorelease pool concept is really a big enhancement for reference counting!

Greetings
-- 
# Constantin Szallies, Energotec GmbH
# szallies@energotec.de
# 49211-9144018
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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Shipping Frameworks
Date: 3 Jul 1997 17:59:05 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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Stil having a problems putting Frameworks into the app wrapper.

Ralph's suggestion didn't work. (Was there bundle loading code that
goes along with this?)

Any help or suggestions would be much appreciated,
-- 
Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Q:Java development in NS3.0?
Date: Thu,  3 Jul 1997 13:54:17 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 2-Jul-97 Q:Java
development in NS3.0? by Murugathas Yuwaraj@ecf.t 
> Could someone tell me if JDK is available for NS3.0?

Yes; the JDK is not available for NS3.0.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 3 Jul 1997 18:40:29 GMT
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Erik M. Buck  wrote:
> By the way, has anyone else noticed that NeXT lost their polish somewhere 
> between 3.3 and 4.0 ?  Everything used to be so well though out.  I feel like 
> I am using an experimental system now.

Yes, I've noticed that. Has NeXT been able to retain it's talent?
(aka show it's engineers the money)

-- 
Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
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From: Bill Perkins 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.unix.programmer,comp.unix.questions
Subject: Re: Are these entry-level-job handicaps show-stoppers?"
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 16:07:57 EDT
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OK, I'll take a crack at this:
  I don't have a degree of any sort; some college, not enough for that
  piece of paper saying that I know what I'm doing, as yet. However,
  about 13 years ago, I got lucky when somebody realized that I knew
  something about computers, so they put me in a position where I could
  really show them.  Since that time, I have not had the very _best_ of
  luck finding jobs, but it hasn't been real terrible, either. Entry
  level (at least, as far as I can tell) means that you know what a
  computer is, you know how to run at least one compiler, you have a
  favorite editor, and you know how to run a debugger effectivly. It
  also means that when the boss says "I need a small program to generate
  a report of statistics from these data files" that you will know at
  least enough 'C' to be able to open files, parse the data in that file
  (if you know the format of the data), and print out some simple
  information as the file is read. If you can pass a simple programming
  test (most companies have them) and not get too self-concious about
  your lack of experience/schooling/whatever, you _might_ be able to get
  a foot in the door. I also recommend the books and procedures outlined
  in the prior message; UNIX (Linux, FreeBSD, etc) is a wonderful
  programming environment. However, to be safe, also be familiar with
  the Wintel programming "environment". As crummy as it is, _most_
  companies out there _really_ want you to be able to deal with Visual C
  and all the other Micro$haft stuff. Given a limited budget, I would
  try and find someone with an unused copy of the Micro$lush compilers
  and have them "transfer" it to you (don't pirate it, please. It's just
  not a good habit to get into, IMHO.) Learn enough about it that you
  know it's limitations. Then get into a _real_ programming environment
  like UNIX, and have a ball. If you can say you've been writing and
  debugging software for 6 months to a year, and maybe have some
  shareware outthere for your prospective boss to look at, it'll help.

  Sorry to ramble, but I hope this helps.

"Mark"  wrote:
>A few months back Gary Longsine posted a thoughtful, detailed response
>(quoted at the bottom of this post) in reply to somebody wondering about
>getting an entry-level programming job. 
>
>I'm wondering  if he or anyone else would like to comment on my situation -
>it's similar but with a difference:  I don't have the CS degree.
>
>I lack no confidence that with some diligent work I can become competent in
>Unix programming, Objective-C, the OpenStep API, and fundamental OOP
>principles.
>
>However I'm not confident that I can land an entry-level programming job of
>some kind because
>
>	* I'm in my mid-thirties
>
>	* never finished my CS university degree
>
>	* and I have no workplace programming experience.
Etc. Sorry for the snip, I've got a flaky new processor here.

---------- huge snip -------------------------------------------------------
-- 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
________				 | Bill Perkins
       /  "Ship Arriving Too Late to     | perk@iag.net
      /    Save a Drowning Witch"	 | programmer-at-large
     /  /\	        F. Zappa	 | ALL assembly languages done here.
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From: Dru Nelson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 3 Jul 1997 22:35:57 GMT
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Ok,

 is a non mutable class copy REALLY just a retain/autorelease ?

Dru



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From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp (Penrose Christopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: HELP!: NSThread severely degrades NSEvent queue access speed
Date: 04 Jul 1997 00:03:36 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Kanagawa Japan
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Howdy Folks:

I am developing an application which is multithreaded.  There is a
single method that is spawned with:

        [NSThread detachNewThreadSelector:@selector(mySelector:)
                  toTarget:self withObject:sender];

In this method (as referenced by mySelector) there are no AppKit
objects manipulated, nor are any messages passed to any AppKit
objects.

Elsewhere, in a custom view, mouseDown: is overridden to implement the
dragging of another view.  The dragging is smooth before the thread is
detached and it is smooth after mySelector: is executed if it is not
executed in a seperate thread.

However, as soon as the application becomes multithreaded, e.g.
mySelector: is executed in a seperate thread, the dragging behavior
degrades drastically: the view stutters when dragged.  A huge
(sometimes as humungous as 500ms) latency is introduced.  This latency
remains in the application ever after, even though the detached thread
has exitted.

Why is this happening?  Are there any ways to alleviate this
unacceptable latency?

I am tempted to use cthread_fork() to see if I can fool the AppKit
into better performance, but I'd prefer this application to be
Openstep compliant.

Thanks for any help!

Christopher Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
penrose@silvertone.princeton.edu
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Great Site URL:http://www.psrinc.com/metsys.htm


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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 4 Jul 1997 03:26:50 GMT
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On 07/03/97, Dru Nelson wrote:
>
>Ok,
>
> is a non mutable class copy REALLY just a retain/autorelease ?
>
>Dru

No.  In many cases it's just a retain though.  (No autorelease.)   Copy 
operations are like init operations - they return an object with a retain count 
of 1 - you have to handle releasing it yourself.

- Chris



-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: WOApps & Sessions
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:30:45 -0400
Organization: Disney Online
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Al Sheehan wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm doing a project in which there are a number of WOApp's. Now, form
> the login screen you choose which WOApp you want to start.
> I am wondering is there a way of forcing the session number to be what
>
> ever one you generate, and is there a way  that the WOApp's
> can capture this session number before fully launching, in order to

When you say session number, are you referring to the SessionIDs that
WOF uses
to track user sessions, or do you also have your own notion of what a
session number
is and how it is tied to a particular persistent user?

I don't think you've given us enough information.

> authenticate.
> Any ideas, thoughts or Six foot blondes looking for a good time ??
>
> Al ...



--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: kevin parks 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: *.wn -> .rtf ?
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:59:01 +0000
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Hi!

I may be having to shut down my old beloved NeXTs for good
soon and I need to make some backups of all my WriteNow
texts and have been converting them to rtf on the NeXT
end of things and porting them
to them MAC and that has worked without a hitch so far.
However I have like 5 years worth of files and this could
take forever.  Is there any way to convert all my WriteNow
files to rtf in batch. instead of opening each individual
file and doing a save as.

like a:

% mkrtf -R *.wn

Claris's open menu has an option for WriteNow NeXT, but
it simply doesn't work.  Probably because any NeXT wn file
is really a folder in wrapper.

any help would be appreciated.  I look in my file viewer at all
my articles and correspondence, etc with all those .wn extensions
and just sigh.


cheers,

kevin parks
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From: "miguel angel gutierrez" 
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Subject: DINERO FACIL LO ASEGURO FUNCIONA
Date: 1 Jul 1997 01:21:35 GMT
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**********************  DINERO FACIL ***********************

Quieres ganar dinero fcil y rpido?. Si es as por favor sigue
leyendo. Esto realmente funciona. Es la manera mas justa y honesta
de poder ganar algun dinero extra sin invertir apenas nada.
Invierte 5 minutos de tu tiempo en leer esto y CAMBIARA tu vida.

El Internet ha crecido enormemente, su tamao se duplica cada 4 meses.
Piensa que si ves cada vez mas este tipo de noticia es por que funciona
y dado que son mas los puntos positivos que los negativos. Piensa que 
puede pasar, quiz funcione adems, solo son 3000 pesetas. 

Muchos escpticos pensarn que es un engao, PINSALO POR UN MOMENTO!!
Hay tantos nuevos suscriptores a Internet de todo el Mundo sin contar 
a los grandes proveedores en EEUU, ellos se interesaran y lo harn 
funcionar por lo simple del sistema.


As es como funciona en 3 sencillos pasos:

PASO NUMERO 1:

Invierte 3000 pesetas, escribiendo tu nombre y direccin en tres 
hojas con la leyenda "Por favor agregeme a su lista de correo", (de 
esta manera no estas regalando un dlar a alguien estas pagando por un 
servicio completamente legal). Envuelve cada billete de 1000 en cada hoja
de 
papel y envalas por correo a estas tres direcciones:

   1. M.Angel Gutierrez.
      C/ Sant Lluis n 49, 12
      37300 Pearanda de bracamonte
            (salamanca)

  2. Susana Lpez  Rodriguez
      C/ Baja de S Idelfonso,6
      18010 -Granada
     
  3. Ernesto Caballero
      C/ San Luis n 49, 21
      08024 Barcelona

PASO NUMERO 2:

Ahora elimina el #1 de la lista y recorre los otros nombre para arriba.
De la manera siguiente el #2 es en #1, el #3 es el #2. Y pon tu 
nombre y direccin en el #3 de la lista. 

PASO NUMERO 3:

Publica este artculo en por lo menos 250 grupos de noticias. Hay por 
lo menos 20000 grupos de noticias en cualquier hora del da. Mientras 
en mas grupos te anuncies, mas gente te vera y te mandara dinero.

PASO NUMERO 4:

Ahora es cuando empieza el negocio para ti, y empezaras a ver resultados
entre los prximos 7 a 14 das. Recuerda que el Internet esta en
crecimiento constante. No hay manera posible de perder.

****************************************************************************



Para cuando ya no veas tu nombre en la lista, tomas el ultimo anuncio y
empiezas de nuevo.

El resultado final depende de TU PERSONA. Debes seguir este articulo y
anunciarlo cuantas veces puedas y donde puedas. Mientras mas te 
anuncies mas dinero te llegara por correo. Es demasiado simple y 
sencillo como para dejar pasar esta oportunidad!!!

Si no estas completamente seguro o piensas que no puede realizarse, no 
lo hagas. Pero por favor imprime este articulo y psalo a alguien que
realmente necesite el dinero y ve que pasa.

PASOS GENERALES PARA AUTOMATIZAR EL PROCESO:

Haz todos los paso necesarios para cambiar este articulo como se explica 
en el PASO NUMERO (2) y cuando ests satisfecho grbalo en formato .txt 
para importarlo en el cuerpo del programa de lector de noticias (ejemplo
Internet News), De esta manera solo tendrs que cambiar el nombre del 
grupo o direccin de correo para distribuirlo.

Consejo Importante:
Es importante para aquellos no muy familiarizados con el email. Por 
todos los medios utilicen un procesador de textos para asegurarse de 
que el articulo lo vean clara y correctamente. Reformatear este articulo 
con un editor simple como "notepad," o "WordPad" si utilizas 
"Windows 95". Procura que el texto sea claramente visible y no se 
necesite mover a la derecha para leerlo. Hacerlo de esta forma asegura 
que el articulo se vera bien en todos los lectores de noticias. Puedes 
checarlo con tu lector antes de conectarse en lnea, leyndolo en tu 
propio lector.   

Enseguida empieza a buscar los grupos de noticias en donde te piensas
anunciar, Netscape 3.0 es un lector muy bueno, por que puedes 
seleccionar varias docenas de grupos a la vez, permitindote distribuir 
tu articulo a miles de lugares en menos de una hora o dos, Selecciona 
todos los grupos a donde quieras mandar el articulo (como sabes se hace 
presionando deteniendo CTRL mientras oprimes el botn izquierdo del 
mouse). De esta manera se pueden seleccionar varios grupos en una 
pasada, quiz una docena cada vez. Despus de eso veras los grupos 
seleccionados en el campo de grupos.

Despus selecciona tu grupo de noticias y oprime "a Noticias" procura 
poner un titulo adecuado en el Tema, luego oprime en agregados donde 
aparecer otra ventana. Localiza el archivo que deseas enviar, oprime 
el archivo y luego brelo, despus de eso envalo y ya esta.

Repite este proceso una y otra vez seleccionando de 10 en 10 los grupos,
selecciona los de mayor afluencia y no anuncies este articulo con 
ttulos muy rimbombantes solo ahuyentara a la gente. Este es una manera 
honesta y legitima de hacer dinero regularmente. Pero solo ser as si 
el mensaje es sincero y claramente entendido por los dems lograras el 
xito deseado.

NOTA DE SOLICITUD:
El sistema se basa en que todos seamos honestos, pero es demasiado 
tentador no molestarse en enviar por correo los sobres con los billetes 
de a dlar adentro. El xito de este programa depende si se lleva a cabo 
y distribuido en un 500%. El sistema tampoco funcionara si la gente toma 
ventaja de ti y no sigue las instrucciones. Puedes sin embargo si deseas 
permanecer en el anonimato, usar un seudnimo, pero asegrate de que tu 
direccin sea correcta.

NOTA FINAL:
Muchas de las ideas para hacer dinero, no importa que tan bien planeadas
e implementadas simplemente no se levantan. Y en muchos de los casos
debido a los costos de publicidad, pero la publicidad conseguida por 
medio de Internet es honestamente muy impresionante. As que por favor 
estudia este articulo minuciosamente y tomate el tiempo que quieras, 
ya que cuando te decidas a participar estars en camino a recibir 
bastante dinero.

Por la misma naturaleza de este sistema no veras los resultados la 
primera semana. PERO AL COMENZAR LA SEGUNDA SEMANA TUS INGRESOS DEL 
CORREO PROVENIENTES DE TODO EL MUNDO VERDADERAMENTE TE SORPRENDERA!!!!!
Por favor piensa esto seriamente, por que es una de las pocas 
oportunidades de hacer dinero rpido que realmente funciona.

BUENA SUERTE!!!


-- MIGUEL

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From: Joseph Panico 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Cross-Platform Applications under NextStep Question
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 08:33:18 -0400
Organization: Disney Online
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Eric Harley wrote:

> Hello,
> I have heard alot of buzz about NextStep being a good development
> platform
> for other machines.
>
> I would like to build a program on NextStep and get it working under
> the
> Macintosh

The MacOS is currently not supported by the OpenStep layer. You'll have
to
wait for apple to port the Yellow box to MacOS.

> and Windows platforms without alot of modifications. Is this
> possible?
>
> I currently own a 486DX4-100Mhz with 17MBs of RAM. Is this adequete
> for
> NextStep on Intel?

Yes, that will work. Performance will probably be acceptable, but not
great.

> Thanks alot!
>
> -Eric Harley
> erich@powerwareintl.com



--
 Joe Panico
 Disney Online
 jpanico@online.disney.com

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From: kevin parks 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: *.wn -> .rtf ?
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 00:05:16 +0000
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Hi!

I may be having to shut down my old beloved NeXTs for good
soon and I need to make some backups of all my WriteNow
texts and have been converting them to rtf on the NeXT
end of things and porting them
to them MAC and that has worked without a hitch so far.
However I have like 5 years worth of files and this could
take forever.  Is there any way to convert all my WriteNow
files to rtf in batch. instead of opening each individual
file and doing a save as.

like a:

% mkrtf -R *.wn

Claris's open menu has an option for WriteNow NeXT, but
it simply doesn't work.  Probably because any NeXT wn file
is really a folder in wrapper.

any help would be appreciated.  I look in my file viewer at all
my articles and correspondence, etc with all those .wn extensions
and just sigh.


cheers,

kevin parks
####################################################################
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From: John Kheit 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 4 Jul 1997 06:42:37 GMT
Organization: monoChrome, Inc., NJ, USA
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cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
> No.  In many cases it's just a retain though.  (No autorelease.)
> Copy operations are like init operations - they return an object
> with a retain count of 1 - you have to handle releasing it
> yourself.

Pardon me if this has been answered before (if so a pointer to the
location would be appreciated...).  But why the heck can't apple/next
just put in a kick but garbage collection scheme that will work
decently the bulk of the time, and offer a more manual option for
those that wish to employ that instead...  Those that are in the
know and want to do it themselves will likely be able to and figure
out any issues, and those not in the know or too lazy or inexperienced
will get the benefits of garbage collection gratis...
--
Thanks, be well, take care, later, John Kheit; Self expressed...
__________________________________________________________________
monoChrome, Inc.            ASCII, MIME, PGP, SUN, & NeXTmail OK
NeXT/OPENSTEP Developer     mailto:jkheit@cnj.digex.net
Telepathy, It's coming...   http://www.cnj.digex.net/~jkheit
New York Law School         You're dangerous because you're honest
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From: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: CVS and .nib files
Date: 4 Jul 1997 07:30:52 GMT
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In article <5pfda8$3hg$1@hermes.is.co.za>,   wrote:
>On 07/02/97, Vincent Kohler wrote:

>The only problem I had with wrappers is that I couldn't find the 
>"wrap" and "unwrap" Utilities and I wrote my own. Was this the right 
>thing to do or did I miss something somewhere

My distribution of cvs didn't have wrap and unwrap either (it's a cvs
1.9 which I found on the RedHat Linux CD). I simply use tar instead
and everything seems to work fine.

--
Franois Pottier
Francois.Pottier@inria.fr
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~fpottier/
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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 4 Jul 1997 07:52:52 GMT
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In <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> Dru Nelson wrote:
>  is a non mutable class copy REALLY just a retain/autorelease ?

No. 

Sometimes it's just a retain. The point is, though, that you shouldn't even 
_know_ it's a retain or not. It has no bearing on the object other than 
performance. Since the object isn't mutable, there's no need to make a new 
object, just make another note of its use. Sort of like shared libraries, or 
copy on write memory.

Autorelease is a separate mechanism. Autorelease just means the object will 
get a release message at some point later, specifically, when the current 
pool is freed.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Java->ObjC Anyone?
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 04:43:50 -0600
Organization: ErgoTech
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Since Apple has embraced java I think it's politically correct to ask
this question.

Java and objective-C use the same object model and are very similar in
many way.  I suspect that it would be possible to pre-compile java into
objective-C source code.  This would provide two things; JIT java and
the ability to link java and objective-C together.  JIT java would allow
java code to be compiled to a real executable, forget bytecode and the
java VM.  The ability to link the two together would allow development
of bundles and application extensions in java and a possible migration
path to java from objective-C.

Is anyone working on this?  Is anyone interested in working on it?  

In my naivet did I miss something that makes this impossible?  It seems
to be such an obvious step that I'm concerned that I totally overlooked
some major obstacle.

Jim
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From: gtupar@ctp.com (Georg Tuparev)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CVS and .nib files
Date: 4 Jul 1997 10:49:20 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 102
Message-ID: <5pikfg$10b$1@concorde.ctp.com>
References: <5pi8rc$a6g@news-rocq.inria.fr>
Reply-To: gtupar@ctp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: dub099.dublin.ctp.com

Hey folks!

Below are my modified versions. Note that this hack does not work in  
client/server mode! After a long conversation with the NeXT technical support I  
decided to write a complete CVS solution that works in client-server mode,  
notifies the PB, IB and EOM and does not fuck my project regularly. When we  
receive our official OS 4.2/MACH and finish the current project (probably beg.  
of august) I'll put everything together and make it public. BTW, I'll also  
submit a patch to the diff. 

With the version below we can work on NT and mach, but it is not fun :-(

Another warning: Better do not use SCM if you are working on UI application or  
your project has an eomodeled directory! Use plane CVS instead....

Have fun

-- georg --


cvswrappers:
...
*.nib -k 'b' -f 'unwrap %s' -t 'wrap %s %s' -m 'COPY'
*.eomodeld -k 'b' -f 'unwrap %s' -t 'wrap %s %s' -m 'COPY'
*.wo   -k 'b' -f 'unwrap %s' -t 'wrap %s %s' -m 'COPY'
*.rtfd -k 'b' -f 'unwrap %s' -t 'wrap %s %s' -m 'COPY'
*.template -m 'COPY'
..

unwrap:
#! /bin/sh
#
#       unwrap - extract the combined package (created with wrap)
#
#ident  "@(#)cvs/examples:$Name:  $:$Id: unwrap,v 1.1 1996/04/18 17:24:07  
tuparev Exp $"

# move the file to a new name with an extension

rm -rf $1.cvswrap
mv $1 $1.cvswrap

# untar the file

if `gzip -t $1.cvswrap > /dev/null 2>&1`
then
        gzcat -d $1.cvswrap | gnutar --preserve --sparse -x -f -
else
        gnutar --preserve --sparse -x -f $1.cvswrap
fi

# remove the original
rm -rf $1.cvswrap




wrap:
#! /bin/sh
#
#       wrap - Combine a directory into a single tar package.
#
#ident  "@(#)cvs/examples:$Name:  $:$Id: wrap,v 1.1 1996/04/18 17:24:07 tuparev  
Exp $"

# This script is always called with the current directory set to
# where the file to be combined exists. but i may get called with a
# path to where cvs first started executing. (this probably should be
# fixed in cvs) so strip out all of the directory information. The
# first sed expression will only work if the path has a leading /
# if it doesn't the one in the if statement will work.

DIRNAME=`echo $1 | sed -e "s|/.*/||g"`
if [ ! -d $DIRNAME ] ; then
      DIRNAME=`echo $1 | sed -e "s|.*/||g"`
fi
#
# Now tar up the directory but we now will only get a relative path
# even if the user did a cvs commit . at the top.
#
gnutar --preserve --sparse -cf - $DIRNAME | gzip --no-name --best -c > $2


In article <5pi8rc$a6g@news-rocq.inria.fr> fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois  
Pottier) writes:
> In article <5pfda8$3hg$1@hermes.is.co.za>,   wrote:
> >On 07/02/97, Vincent Kohler wrote:
> 
> >The only problem I had with wrappers is that I couldn't find the 
> >"wrap" and "unwrap" Utilities and I wrote my own. Was this the right 
> >thing to do or did I miss something somewhere
> 
> My distribution of cvs didn't have wrap and unwrap either (it's a cvs
> 1.9 which I found on the RedHat Linux CD). I simply use tar instead
> and everything seems to work fine.
--
-------
 /\/\  Georg Tuparev   | Currently in Dublin
/ /_ \ Cambridge Technology Partners            118/119 Lower Baggot Street 
\  / / Apollo House, Apollolaan 15              Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
 \/\/  1077 AB Amsterdam, The Netherlands       Tel: +353(1)607-9083
       Tel: +31(20)575-0492  Fax: +31(20)575-0500  WWW: http://www.ctp.com
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSString encoding inside property lists
Date: 4 Jul 1997 11:05:03 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 26
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.44.75.193
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Hi,

What kind of encoding does an NSString use when it writes inself into a ASCII property list (which should be identical 
to what you get when calling -description on an NSDictionary)

I poked around in the documentation and was not really able to find information on that...and NSString supports all 
sorts of wierd encodings.

My best geuss up to now is that NeXT uses escaped octals ("\205") for chars which ar in the NeXT ASCII encoding table 
as defined in Appendix C. For chars which are not included it uses the 7-Bit Unicode encoding (NSUTFStringEncoding..as 
NeXT wrote: <>...and I think : "YES please" )
The Unicode stuff is escaped too ("\U4711")

But then...this is just a guess and since we need to provide our clinet with a spec about how to create NSString 
compatible "ASCII-dicts" I would like to have more then just propable matching guesses.



Any hint ? Reference ?

Aloha
	Tomi


P.S. We don't have the Unicode books yet..they are ordered but not here. So if all this is described in there a simple 
reference is all I need.
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From: atze@aspohr.dart.de (Alexander Spohr)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Problem EOF procedure
Date: 4 Jul 1997 11:26:24 GMT
Organization: INTERSHOP Communications
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <5piml0$kob@linux1.netconx.de>
References: <5oe5ju$asd@hpuniv.univ-lr.fr>
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bruno@gruick.univ-lr.fr (Bruno Garnier) wrote:
> Hi All,

> I work on OpenStep4.1 and EOF 2.0 and Oracle 7.3

> I try to use a stored procedure that have 100 parameters
> BUt I can't retrieve it on EOModeler
> SO I insert manually this stored procedure into my model 
> but when i try to execute this procedure in my project  
> I've got always the same error message : 
> *** -[OracleNumberColumn setColumnLengthAndClientTypeForAttribute:] unknown 
> number type: "*nil*"

we have the same problem using
EODatabaseContext batchFetchRelationship:forSourceObjects:editingContext:
the generated sql is wrong. it contains nil entries.
(t0.*nil* = *nil*  AND  t1.PRODUCT_ID = :productId)
in fact these entries need not to be there to make the query work as supposed:
(t1.PRODUCT_ID = :productId)

if someone knows how to enable the right usage please help.

	Atze

---
       Alexander Spohr, NetMatic GmbH, Hamburg, Germany
Mail: Alexander_Spohr@NetMatic.com            Faces and faces
Fax:  +49 (0) 40 / 492 23 68        See them and complain not
WWW:  http://www.NetMatic.com/        And am content with all
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 4 Jul 1997 14:37:07 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <5pj1qj$4pk$1@concorde.ctp.com>
References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net> <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>
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John Kheit  wrote:
>cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
>> No.  In many cases it's just a retain though.  (No autorelease.)
>> Copy operations are like init operations - they return an object
>> with a retain count of 1 - you have to handle releasing it
>> yourself.
>
>Pardon me if this has been answered before (if so a pointer to the
>location would be appreciated...).  But why the heck can't apple/next
>just put in a kick but garbage collection scheme that will work
>decently the bulk of the time, and offer a more manual option for
>those that wish to employ that instead...  Those that are in the
>know and want to do it themselves will likely be able to and figure
>out any issues, and those not in the know or too lazy or inexperienced
>will get the benefits of garbage collection gratis...

While this has been discussed during the past 2or more years the answer to me 
seems quite simple.

Like someone already mentioned...its the 80%/20% typ of thing. Doing 
distributed garbage collection is not that trivial and NeXT needed a working 
solution to especially solve the DO problems which did really hurt badly 
during 3.x times.


Now what is NeXTpple's solution ? IMHO it is Java.
ObjC shares all the problems that C based languges have (pointers etc.). Java 
doesn't have these problems since it was designed "not to have them".

I personally would be very happy I they would just provide bridges from the 
system frameworks to "smarter" languages so that you can choose if you wnat 
the low level control or smart GC.

That's what Apple is at least heading for with the Java integration in 
Rhapsody.


Aloha
	Tomi

P.S. The sad thing is, that they are providing a Java-C++ like crappy syntax 
for ObjC instead of offering a Smalltalk-ObjC style syntax for Java. Sigh...

####################################################################
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From: pshum@rock.ali.bc.ca (Paul Shum)
Subject: Strange behavior of Text object
Message-ID: 
Sender: nobody@gateway.ali.bc.ca
Organization: A.L.I. Technologies, Inc.
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 14:35:13 GMT
Lines: 60

Hi!

I am using NeXTStep 3.3.  I run into a problem which is really
strange.  I would like people to suggest ways to find out what is
wrong or tell me what I did wrong or even locating the problem area.
As my schedule is beginning to fall behind, I appreciate for any
constructive suggestion.

I am writing a feature bundle (say F) which will be loaded by an
application (say A).  My feature bundle is used to save a view with a
text into an EPS file.  When I was creating the F, I used an old
version of A to test my source.  Everything were fine.  Now, when I
tested F with a new version of A, the EPS file created has the text
inverted (or more accurate is mirror image about the x-axis).  The
view on the screen is perfect.  The text is upright.  But, the created
EPS file has a inverted image.  When I used the old version of A to
load my F, everything went back to normal which is a correct EPS file
is generated.

The above is only a description of the behavior.  The actual
functionality of F is much more complicated.

Additional information:

1.  A is compiled in a different machine.  I just used the executable.
2.  I suspect that the machines to compile A and F are different in
    terms of loading appropriate patch or software environment setup.

Questions:

1.  Who is the killer?  A causes the inverted image or F causes the
    inverted image.  It seemed to me that A causes the problem but
    it does not make sense because F has its own view and it generates
    its own EPS file.  But, if F causes the problem, why does it work
    with the old version of A?  (F has its own window.)

2.  I compared the two EPS source.  There are three differences:
    a. the correct image has one additional set of gsave and grestore.
    b. the ordering is a bit different.
    c. there is one additional EPS command "concat" for the correct
       version.

    The EPS code is generated with F without any change.  Why does it
    generate different code?

3.  Why does it look O.K. on the screen and the generated EPS file image
    is inverted?
	
Your response is very much appreciated.  

If you need any further information, please do let me know.

Thanks!


Paul S. L. Shum
_____________________________________________________________

Are you a Christian who happens to be a computer professional
or a computer professional who happens to be a Christian?
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From: suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de (Ralf Suckow)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 4 Jul 1997 16:30:57 GMT
Organization: Alcatel/Bell
Lines: 37
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5pj8g1$bh0@btmpjg.god.bel.alcatel.be>
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NNTP-Posting-Host: slbwd2.bln.sel.alcatel.de

John Kheit  writes
> cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
> > No.  In many cases it's just a retain though.  (No autorelease.)
> > Copy operations are like init operations - they return an object
> > with a retain count of 1 - you have to handle releasing it
> > yourself.
 
> Pardon me if this has been answered before (if so a pointer to the
> location would be appreciated...).  But why the heck can't apple/next
> just put in a kick but garbage collection scheme that will work
> decently the bulk of the time, and offer a more manual option for
> those that wish to employ that instead...  Those that are in the
> know and want to do it themselves will likely be able to and figure
> out any issues, and those not in the know or too lazy or inexperienced
> will get the benefits of garbage collection gratis...

In general I understand your complaints (esp. after using Java
for almost two years), but in the above case its just not good
style to not autorelease the copied object.

Any object that is given out of a method to the caller should to
be autoreleased at least in the case when the callee may have no reference
to it anymore. This is the case with copy operations.

So, the statement "in many cases it's just a retain though ...
you have to handle releasing it yourself"of Christopher
is simply missing the common practice. Either it is returned
autoreleased, or you don't need to release it anyway.

On the other hand, I like Java where due to interpretation
automatic reference counting is easy and GC is not an 20/80
issue.

Yours,
Ralf
                               ------------------------
Ralf.Suckow@bln.sel.alcatel.de | All opinions are mine.
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OPENSTEP on 95 is several times slower than on NT!
Date: 4 Jul 1997 17:44:51 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
Lines: 37
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We recently received OPENSTEP Enterprise 4.2 and are able to deploy our 
software product on Windows 95.

However, we have discovered a serious problem with OPENSTEP 4.2 on Windows 
95: our application runs 4 to 5 times slower than on Windows NT. This is the 
same executable binary on the same machine.

Our software product, the Visual Simulation Environment, contains a 
discrete-event simulation engine that performs a lot of internal processing. 
It is not multi-threaded, does not use EOF, PDO, or any network features. We 
use only the Foundation Kit, the AppKit, and our own frameworks built on top 
of those two.

I have been trying to identify the bottle-neck. Unfortunately, the Sampler 
application does not work on Windows 95. When I click on the "Start Sampling" 
button, it just beeps at me. Therefore I cannot find which method or function 
takes so long. Sampler works on NT, but it is in 95 that the slow down 
occurs.

1) Have others experienced this 95 slow down problem? If so is there a known 
workaround?

I know that NeXT/Apple is busy with Rhapsody, but if this speed problem is a 
general OPENSTEP/95 problem it makes OPENSTEP almost unusable on Windows 95 
(since there is no chance of competing with native Windows products when the 
speed difference is so enormous).

2) Can others run Sampler?

Thanks,

--

Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 4 Jul 1997 20:05:21 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
Lines: 77
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On 07/04/97, Ralf Suckow wrote:
>John Kheit  writes
>> cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf) wrote:
>> > No.  In many cases it's just a retain though.  (No autorelease.)
>> > Copy operations are like init operations - they return an object
>> > with a retain count of 1 - you have to handle releasing it
>> > yourself.
>
>In general I understand your complaints (esp. after using Java
>for almost two years), but in the above case its just not good
>style to not autorelease the copied object.
>
>Any object that is given out of a method to the caller should to
>be autoreleased at least in the case when the callee may have no reference
>to it anymore. This is the case with copy operations.
>
>So, the statement "in many cases it's just a retain though ...
>you have to handle releasing it yourself"of Christopher
>is simply missing the common practice. Either it is returned
>autoreleased, or you don't need to release it anyway.

Uh no.  Copy is an EXPLICIT exception to this "common practice" that is clearly 
documented by NeXT.  Copy is supposed to behave like alloc/init.

In ProgrammingTopics/ObjectOwnership.rtf:

----- START QUOTE -----
Now that the concepts behind the Foundation Framework's object ownership policy 
have been introduced, they can be expressed as a short list of rules:

If you allocate, copy, or retain an object, you are responsible for releasing 
the newly created object with release or autorelease. Any other time you receive 
an object, you're not responsible for releasing it.
----- END QUOTE ------


And in the NSCopying protocol documentation:

----- START QUOTE -----
The NSCopying protocol declares a method for providing functional copies of an 
object. The exact meaning of copy can vary from class to class, but a copy 
must be a functionally independent object with values identical to the original 
at the time the copy was made. A copy produced with NSCopying is implicitly 
retained by the sender, who is responsible for releasing it. 
----- END QUOTE ------


Note that both of these sources say the SENDER of the copy message is 
responsible for releasing the returned object.


And also from the NSCopying protocol docs:

----- START QUOTE -----
Immutable classes can implement NSCopying very efficiently. Since immutable 
objects don't change, there is no need to duplicate them. Instead, NSCopying can 
be implemented to retain the original. For example, copyWithZone: for an 
immutable string class can be implemented in the following way.

- (id)copyWithZone:(NSZone *)zone
{
    return [self retain];
}
----- END QUOTE ------


- Chris

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: stark@easynet.fr (Frederic Stark)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 4 Jul 1997 23:34:25 GMT
Organization: Self
Lines: 67
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> Steve Dekorte wrote:
> > 
> > Erik M. Buck  wrote:
> > > By the way, has anyone else noticed that NeXT lost their polish somewhere
> > > between 3.3 and 4.0 ?  Everything used to be so well though out.  I feel like
> > > I am using an experimental system now.

There have been huge changes between 3.3 and 4.0, and I think they wanted to
do too much things at once (ie: openstep and new developper tools)

My 0.002$ on PB: I'd like to be able to alway use torn-off windows because
I just hate the way the browser and the text get out-of-sync.
[I mean, select a file in a subproject, tear it of, select a file in another
subproject, click on the torn-off window, the browser get back to the first
subproject, try to click somewhere in the browser (to open a related file),
and the browser changes its selection after it become main, but before it
accepts the event. I want the guy who designed that each time]

[off-topic-on]
Or, in 4.2pre, type the following method:

- (float)
and save here.

Bang, project builder goes away. I would even have reported it if I could have
launch BugNeXT.app
[off-topic-off]

I don't find new ProjectBuilder really easier to manage big projects. I would
really love to have a shelf in it to access frequently used files/subprojects
and to move them around.

And, a way to open the header of a implementation file other than:
* Alt-drag miniaturize button to content of browser text
* Click-on "Headers"
* Alt-T

While we are at it, I hope they loose the source of the integration of gdb
in project builder (hint, hint, guys at apple, "rm -rf"). Terminal does a
much better job at handling text/selections/Alt-k. gdb window in PB is
soooo slooooow. And is often inacurate if a lot of text is dumped on it
(some output is just lost. Nice isn't it?). And when you click on the
middle of the text and type, nothing happends. Ghosh. *Who* did that ?
Or try to use the keyboard in gdb window: type 'n', and this half-dumb
project builder make your source key window, so you can happilly override
your source with gdb commands, Happends to me 3 or 4 times per debugging
session. [Ok at least, now we can undo...]

I understand that NeXT needed to have a OPENSTEP compliant PB, so couldn't
base things on Terminal, but this should have never been released with such
trivial bugs !

I could continue ranting for hours on the subject, and it is not really fair
because I used VC++ a lot (and metrowerks a bit) and those are true crap
compared to PB.

As we says in French:
  "Qui aime bien chatie bien"

Cheers,

-- fred

PS: Btw, new PB have nice features (undo region, auto-save, multi-file replace)
and is a lot better than before.


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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 16:07:42 -0600
Organization: ErgoTech
Lines: 16
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Steve Dekorte wrote:
> 
> Erik M. Buck  wrote:
> > By the way, has anyone else noticed that NeXT lost their polish somewhere
> > between 3.3 and 4.0 ?  Everything used to be so well though out.  I feel like
> > I am using an experimental system now.
> 
> Yes, I've noticed that. Has NeXT been able to retain it's talent?
> (aka show it's engineers the money)
> 
> --
> Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
How's WO?  I've always suspected that to have been so much of a focus at
NeXT that it really hurt the OpenStep development.

Jim
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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 5 Jul 1997 08:39:21 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
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In <5pkv83$bh3$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> Christopher Wolf wrote:
> Is this a really wide-spread misconception that you are supposed to 
autorelease 
> objects returned by the copy method????   See my other post on this thread 
where 
> I explicitly show 3 places in NeXT's documentation where it says that it is 
the 
> SENDER's responsibility to release objects returned by copy.  (Just as it 
is the 
> SENDER's responsibility to release objects returned by alloc/init.)

He's getting confused by a couple posts back where I said I usually do return 
[[something copy] autorelease] in accessor methods. I think. Language is too 
imprecise, I'm going to sleep.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:45:05 +0200
Organization: pv
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Charles William Swiger  wrote:

> Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 4-Jul-97 Re: [Q]
> OpenStep Garbage Co.. by John Kheit@cnj.digex.net 
> > Pardon me if this has been answered before (if so a pointer to the
> > location would be appreciated...).  But why the heck can't apple/next
> > just put in a kick but garbage collection scheme that will work
> > decently the bulk of the time,
> 
> They've already come about as close as they can without encountering
> some fundamental issues-- namely, the fact that under C-derived
> languages, it's possible to create arbitrary pointer references and it's
> possible to do pointer arithmetic.  These two properties make it
> impossible for a garbage collector to be certain whether memory regions
> are in use or not.

This is not correct. A conservative garbage collector will work just
fine with C or C++ and I assume therefor also with Obj-C. You'd have to
work hard to fool the collector. Much harder than with non collecting
allocators (where the collector is you). Arbitrary pointer references (I
suppose you mean block referenced only by a pointer to the interior of
an allocated block(?)) and pointer arithmetic is certainly not a
problem. The things that might make the collector fail - collect and
reuse live data - are things that invokes "undefined behaviour" and
therefor is illegal and will probably fail anyway, with or without GC.
Things like deliberately hiding address bitpatterns by for instance
storing pointers to allocated blocks on disk (only) for later retrieval
or splitting the address word in bytes stored away from each other and
later combining to a proper address or other similarly contrived and
illegal tricks. There are commercial conservative collectors available
and Hans-Juergen Boehms free and excellent conservative collector works
just fine in C or C++ on many systems, including Macintosh (CW and
Symantec), NT, OS2 and various Unixes. Does it work on NeXT? I suppose
so because of its Unix foundation. I'm a Mac programmer and know little
about the NeXT stuff, but will hopefully learn. 

Speed is also often used as an argument against GC, but this is not a
valid argument. Boehms free GC is a substantially faster allocator than
Metrowerks or Symantecs non collecting allocators. Collections can be
configured to be threaded and incremental where the OS permits or if one
prefers as full stop-the-world collections. The latter is what most
people are afraid of. On a Macintosh a full stop collection wont take
longer than perhaps 10 ms and they are far between. With incremental
collection there is no such issue.

Many claim that reference counting is as good as GC and is enough, but
this is not the case. Reference counting wont solve cyclic references
and is not automatic. If you must manually increment/decrement a counter
then where is the difference from saying new/delete? It's a very minor
gain compared to proper garbage collection.


-- 
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se  -  Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: libfl on NT?
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 05:19:36 -0600
Organization: ErgoTech
Lines: 32
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CC: arti@lava.net

Art Isbell wrote:
> 
> oloft@hegel1.cs.chalmers.se.cs.chalmers.se (Olof Torgersson) wrote:
> >
> > I'm trying to convert a 3.3 project using flex and bison generated files to
> > OPENSTEP. I managed to do it for mach, but I would also like to port it
> > to NT.
> 
>     flex and bison are included with OS/NT, so no additional libraries are
> needed.  However, we had been using flex 2.5.2 under NS 3.3 because it's so
> much nicer than the old BSD lex included with NS.  To our dismay, when we
> ported to NT, our flex source would no longer compile under the flex included
> with OS/NT.  The reason is that the flex version is VERY OLD and we were
> taking advantage of newer flex features.  It's so old that it doesn't respond
> to the --version flag.  It still uses flex.skel from 1990!
> 
>     So you may need to rewrite your flex source somewhat.  Not sure about
> bison because we had been using NS 3.3's yacc.
You can convince the latest flex (2.5.4?) to compile on OS/NT and it
seems to work fine although I haven't given it too much of a workout. 
Make links (shortcuts) from gcc.exe to cc.exe and create /bin with sh
and sh.exe.  You also need to create a couple of links during
compilation (parse.XXX to any file that the parser says it can't find). 
You need to use -DYY_NEVER_INTERACTIVE when you compile the flex code to
get rid of linker errors caused by references to isatty.

We do need a replacement for bison on OS/NT.  I believe that the
licensing for bison still requires that you release the grammar under
the gnu license.  This is usually not acceptable for commercial
applications.

Jim
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From: dyoung@vvi.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 5 Jul 1997 14:13:48 GMT
Organization: VVI Data Control Specialists
Lines: 39
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NNTP-Posting-Host: mttam.com
Originator: gsupport@


Erik M. Buck wrote:
> By the way, has anyone else noticed that NeXT lost their polish somewhere 
> between 3.3 and 4.0 ?  Everything used to be so well though out.  I feel
> like I am using an experimental system now.

Art Isbell wrote:
> The NS 3.3 -> OS 4.0 changes were, by far, the most extensive changes 
> NeXT has made to its development environment.  Essentially everything 
> changed.  A small company like NeXT just didn't have the personnel to make 
> such sweeping changes without a degradation in the development environment.  
> NeXT was in a position that its only potentially successful commercial 
> direction was a Windows development environment, and that meant cleaving the 
> BSD UNIX underpinnings from the bottom of the development environment, a 
> major undertaking.

> Apple simply must return the polish to Rhapsody ASAP which includes 
> comprehensive documentation.

From my perspective the NS3.* -> OS4.* change is very positive. All the
development tools are better and the underlying fundamentals of the
NeXT supplied frameworks took a very positive step forward in several areas
like object life times, transporting objects via DO, naming conventions, 
and increased functionality of each object class as well as new object
classes. These changes have nothing to do with needing to support NT,
although it definitely helps. The original NeXT framework was designed
before 1987. The guys at NeXT learned a lot in the following decade and
were building up to a major change in their frameworks. It wasn't a
drastic overnight process, but rather a process that evolved
over 10 years of design thought. The most concrete acknowledgment that
OS4.* is better is in the redesign of third party code, and our code
(about 1/2 million source code lines) definitely benefited in several
substantial ways.


-- David Young
VVI-DCS ; http://www.vvi.com


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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Fri,  4 Jul 1997 20:08:06 -0400
Organization: Fifth yr. senior, Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 26
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References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net> <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 4-Jul-97 Re: [Q]
OpenStep Garbage Co.. by John Kheit@cnj.digex.net 
> Pardon me if this has been answered before (if so a pointer to the
> location would be appreciated...).  But why the heck can't apple/next
> just put in a kick but garbage collection scheme that will work
> decently the bulk of the time,

They've already come about as close as they can without encountering
some fundamental issues-- namely, the fact that under C-derived
languages, it's possible to create arbitrary pointer references and it's
possible to do pointer arithmetic.  These two properties make it
impossible for a garbage collector to be certain whether memory regions
are in use or not.

That is why Java has far more restrictive pointer semantics, since it
permits Javas' GC to know for certain the status of all memory regions,
which means that no explicit memory management (ala -retain/-release and
so forth) is needed.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Dru Nelson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 5 Jul 1997 01:06:01 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
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David Young  wrote:
> In <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> Dru Nelson wrote:
> >  is a non mutable class copy REALLY just a retain/autorelease ?

> No. 

How about sometimes/maybe yes. :-)

Even though everybody is saying that it is just a retain, that is just
for the copy. Before you give it to the caller, you also put an autorelease
on it so the caller doesn't have to worry about releasing it 
(I like free better BTW :) So although copy is just a retain on non
immutable objects, there is usually an autorelease done on it after
it has been copied. (aren't you mind readers? ;)

New question: copy creates an immutable copy for every object immutable
or not (if they are into that immutable/mutable distinction?), if I
copy a Mutable, is it going to create a new object on the copy every 
time. My 99% belief is yes. So when I want to work with objects that
change (it could happen :), I am creating a lot of objects. 

The Bottom line, I, the programmer, still have to consider memory 
allocation for variables when I structure a program, whether there is garbage
collection or not.

BTW, thanks to all the talk on this. It's interesting.

Hopefully, there will be some better general documentation on openstep as
time goes on.


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From: arti@address.in.signature (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: 5 Jul 1997 03:44:12 GMT
Organization: LavaNet, Inc.
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Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5pkfuc$81q@mochi.lava.net>
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Erik M. Buck  wrote:
> By the way, has anyone else noticed that NeXT lost their polish somewhere 
> between 3.3 and 4.0 ?  Everything used to be so well though out.  I feel 
like 
> I am using an experimental system now.

    The NS 3.3 -> OS 4.0 changes were, by far, the most extensive changes 
NeXT has made to its development environment.  Essentially everything 
changed.  A small company like NeXT just didn't have the personnel to make 
such sweeping changes without a degradation in the development environment.  
NeXT was in a position that its only potentially successful commercial 
direction was a Windows development environment, and that meant cleaving the 
BSD UNIX underpinnings from the bottom of the development environment, a 
major undertaking.

    Apple simply must return the polish to Rhapsody ASAP which includes 
comprehensive documentation.

-- 
Art Isbell                       NeXT/MIME Mail: arti at lava dot net
Trego Systems (for whom I don't speak)     Voice/Fax: +1 808 394 0511
OPENSTEP/NT                               Voice Mail: +1 808 394 0495
   managed care solutions            US Mail: Honolulu, HI 96825-2638
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From: psyboyvych@inter-nexus.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Attention CGI/PERL/C++ Elite. Dream Job Offer.
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 05:00:20 GMT
Organization: Uniserve
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <5pkk1n$3tj$16@neptune.uniserve.com>
Reply-To: psyboyvych@inter-nexus.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: abb0323.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

To the CGI/PERL/C++ Elite:
A private organization needs your help to finnish a highly specialized
HTML project called the "Internexus".
The first 75 programmers who submit their name will be interviewed for
the job.
The people chosen will recieve shares in our Web Design company and an
optional position as systems administrator and/or HTML author with the
company.  Approx. $18k to start, part time.
You will not need to relocate as the virtual office works great!

Submit you name & e-mail to the Program Director. He will contact you
to set up an interview time.  Please do not send any of your questions
as we will not be able to reply.  Save them for your interview:)
Reply to texas@uniserve.com

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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 5 Jul 1997 06:59:28 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
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	<5pk6lp$s0v$1@owl.slip.net>
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Cc: dnelson@slip.net

In <5pk6lp$s0v$1@owl.slip.net> Dru Nelson wrote:
> How about sometimes/maybe yes. :-)

Well, from the class implementor's perspective, sometimes yes. But, for the 
developer using the class, the answer is: maybe, but don't count on it, so 
effectively no.

> Even though everybody is saying that it is just a retain, that is just
> for the copy. Before you give it to the caller, you also put an autorelease
> on it so the caller doesn't have to worry about releasing it 
> (I like free better BTW :) So although copy is just a retain on non
> immutable objects, there is usually an autorelease done on it after
> it has been copied. (aren't you mind readers? ;)

Yeah, I see what you mean now. If I return a NSString from a class' accessor 
method, it's [[string copy] autorelease], but what's really happening might 
be [[string retain] autorelease]. Either one is exactly what I want, though; 
I want to give the caller of an accessor method an object guaranteed to exist 
for at least the lifetime of the current autorelease pool, and no longer.

Implementing [object copy] is a separate function from the above. 

> New question: copy creates an immutable copy for every object immutable
> or not (if they are into that immutable/mutable distinction?), if I
> copy a Mutable, is it going to create a new object on the copy every 
> time. My 99% belief is yes. So when I want to work with objects that
> change (it could happen :), I am creating a lot of objects. 

If you copy a mutable instance, you get an instance of that class' immutable 
counterpart. For example, [[NSMutableString string] copy] returns a NSString, 
NOT a NSMutableString. Chances are, yes, you will get a lot of objects.

All this is detailed in Protocols/NS[Mutable]Copying.rtfd in the Foundation 
framework documentation.

> The Bottom line, I, the programmer, still have to consider memory 
> allocation for variables when I structure a program, whether there is 
garbage
> collection or not.

Yep. Except with automatic garbage collection, you often can't change its 
behavior (Java) and it tends to make you forget about what memory usage and 
the overheads of object instantiation and deallocation have on your program.
 
> BTW, thanks to all the talk on this. It's interesting.

Yea.

> Hopefully, there will be some better general documentation on openstep as
> time goes on.

Heh, I don't know, the Foundation Reference is pretty good. It's the last 
word, in almost every case.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 5 Jul 1997 08:05:23 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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On 07/04/97, Dru Nelson wrote:
>David Young  wrote:
>> In <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> Dru Nelson wrote:
>> >  is a non mutable class copy REALLY just a retain/autorelease ?
>
>> No. 
>
>How about sometimes/maybe yes. :-)
>
>Even though everybody is saying that it is just a retain, that is just
>for the copy. Before you give it to the caller, you also put an autorelease
>on it so the caller doesn't have to worry about releasing it 
>(I like free better BTW :) So although copy is just a retain on non
>immutable objects, there is usually an autorelease done on it after
>it has been copied. (aren't you mind readers? ;)

Is this a really wide-spread misconception that you are supposed to autorelease 
objects returned by the copy method????   See my other post on this thread where 
I explicitly show 3 places in NeXT's documentation where it says that it is the 
SENDER's responsibility to release objects returned by copy.  (Just as it is the 
SENDER's responsibility to release objects returned by alloc/init.)

- Chris


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 05:08:16 -0600
Organization: ErgoTech
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <33BE2B20.64CA@ergotech.com>
References: <5p12cg$ar2$3@nuke.csu.net>   <5p4hu3$4j0$1@gaea.omnigroup.com> <5pb35d$6ui2@castor.cca.rockwell.com> <5pgrmt$2ur$1@owl.slip.net> <5pkfuc$81q@mochi.lava.net>
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Art Isbell wrote:
> 
> Erik M. Buck  wrote:
> > By the way, has anyone else noticed that NeXT lost their polish somewhere
> > between 3.3 and 4.0 ?  Everything used to be so well though out.  I feel
> like
> > I am using an experimental system now.

>     Apple simply must return the polish to Rhapsody ASAP which includes
> comprehensive documentation.
Some bug fixes to 4.2 wouldn't hurt.  Are there any plans for this or is
it just not worth reporting them?  Once you get in a groove you can get
PB to crash 3-4 times or more per day.

Jim
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From: "kdevries" 
Subject: PROGRAMMERS- GEAC, DBS, MSA
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Fabulous opportunities exist for programmers with DBS e:series (Geac)
experience.  Opportunities nationwide.  Excellent salary and benefits.  Can
work as a permanent employee or as a contractor.  

Send resume or brief work history to :  KDEVRIES@THEONRAMP.NET

OR contact: 	Karen DeVries
		512-342-0302, phone
		512-342-0305, fax

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From: ftouhi@IRO.UMontreal.CA (Majid Ftouhi)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.c++.leda,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: compilation problem?
Date: 5 Jul 1997 16:59:07 GMT
Organization: Universite de Montreal
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Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.lang.c++.leda:1839 comp.sys.next.programmer:25223

Hi there:
	i have installed LEDA3.5 on NextStep for Intel: And i tried to compile this 
example:
#include
int main()
{
d_array N(0);
string s;
while ( cin >> s ) N[s]++;
forall_defined(s,N) 
	cout << s << " " << N[s] << endl;
return ( 0 );
}

i get this :

>g++  Essai.C -lP -lG -lL -lm
ld: Undefined symbols:
_cuserid



can anyone help please??

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From: Robert Anderson
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: This news group is invited to a Secret online book ! All Ages Welcome!
Date: 5 Jul 1997 17:12:15 GMT
Organization: Anderson Services
Lines: 17
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: <5plv9f$im1@news1.mnsinc.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: bigred.1bigred.com



You are about to learn how ordinary people can simply and easily achieve
the once thought un-achievable. These Secrets will work for anyone. Simply
apply them.  This online book is one to study. Write any ideas or notes down.
Read this one Secret at a time. Taking notes as ideas cross through your
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From: maddog@blkbox.com (Gary Fox)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: RIP for Ultre 3000
Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 15:29:47 +0100
Organization: Mad Dog Productions
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I have heard that NeXT Step can Print to any PostScript Printer at any
resolution, Is this still true. If so I need to find out how I can get it
to RIP to an Imager from a Windows NT Machine.
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Sat,  5 Jul 1997 16:21:01 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 84
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References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net> <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net> 
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 5-Jul-97 Re: [Q]
OpenStep Garbage Co.. by Lars Farm@ite.mh.se 
>> They've already come about as close as they can without encountering
>> some fundamental issues-- namely, the fact that under C-derived
>> languages, it's possible to create arbitrary pointer references and it's
>> possible to do pointer arithmetic.  These two properties make it
>> impossible for a garbage collector to be certain whether memory regions
>> are in use or not.
>  
> This is not correct.

It isn't?  How so?

> A conservative garbage collector will work just fine with C or C++ and I
> assume therefor also with Obj-C.

Why would one have to use a conservative GC in the first place?  It's
because the GC cannot be sure which regions are used or not because of C
pointer semantics, so it _must_ use a conservative strategy.

A Java GC does not have to be conservative because Java's pointer
semantics guarantee that the garbage collector can determine with
certainty whether a region is in use or not.

> You'd have to work hard to fool the collector.

Not very hard at all-- a circularly linked list or other
self-referential data structure is generally sufficient to prevent a
conservative GC from ever freeing the memory.

> Much harder than with non collecting allocators (where the collector is you).
> Arbitrary pointer references (I suppose you mean block referenced only by a
> pointer to the interior of an allocated block(?))

I meant the fact that this type of behavior is permitted:

    #define SOME_INT (12345)    // or pick your own magic number
    void *ptr = (void *) SOME_INT;

> and pointer arithmetic is certainly not a problem.

You are mistaken.  It's perfectly valid for me to take a pointer to a
memory region, and subtract 10000 from it if in the future, I always add
10000 to the pointer before dereferencing it.  Of course, this is a
simple and contrived example to demonstrate the problem.

A non-contrived example would be something like simulating a
base-and-bounds register combination for managing memory regions, where
any pointer references within a particular region explicitly are added
to the base register of that region in order to determine the actual
memory address being referenced.

Doing this type of thing will confuse even a conservative garbage
collector into thinking the memory region is not in use when it is.

> The things that might make the collector fail - collect and
> reuse live data - are things that invokes "undefined behaviour" and
> therefor is illegal and will probably fail anyway, with or without GC.

You are mistaken.  Go read a second edition of the K&R and you will
discover that the ANSI-C language has precisely defined semantics for
pointer arithmetic.

> Things like deliberately hiding address bitpatterns by for instance
> storing pointers to allocated blocks on disk (only) for later retrieval
> or splitting the address word in bytes stored away from each other and
> later combining to a proper address or other similarly contrived and
> illegal tricks.

There is nothing contrived about self-referential data structures or C
pointer arithmetic semantics.  They are a well-defined and legal part of
the language, and it is possible to use such techniques without any
problems under the standard ANSI-C environment.

The fact that garbage collection algorithms break when confronted with
conformant, working ANSI-C code indicates that adding GC was the problem.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: sams@best.com (Samuel G. Streeper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 5 Jul 1997 15:42:17 -0700
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Charles William Swiger  writes:
>Why would one have to use a conservative GC in the first place?  It's
>because the GC cannot be sure which regions are used or not because of C
>pointer semantics, so it _must_ use a conservative strategy.

Also, all the conservative GC's I've seen have to scan the process's
entire variable space, and if you don't tie into the VM system
pretty tightly you will thrash the disk scanning the address space,
hopefully not goofing up the VM's least recently used (or whatever)
algorithm.  This is not a very good solution.  

Also, someone just noted that it's easy for programmers to
misunderstand the refcounting scheme and screw up a program
because they don't understand their responsibilities (ie
autoreleased status of copied objects.)  If there is much
turnover in your programming staff, the learning curve
associated with this fragile system may well decelerate
your deployment.

The king has no clothes and this problem is not being
properly addressed.  It will become a big issue, if obj-c
or at least openstep is ever to become a significant force.

-sam
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From: sef@kithrup.com
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From: behappy@iveshown.com
Subject: Enlow Gives Away Businesses...
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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Pissed of Private Investigator, tells
"the rest of the story." What Mark 
Fraunfelder with Wired forgot to tell... 

http:/michaelenlow.by.net/spamwar.htm


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From: luomat@peak.org (Timothy J. Luoma)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.software,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: *.wn -> .rtf ?
Date: 6 Jul 1997 02:50:17 GMT
Organization: The PEAK FTP Archive for NEXTSTEP/OpenStep
Lines: 34
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In <33BC3E3C.49F5@dartmouth.edu> kevin parks wrote:
> Is there any way to convert all my WriteNow
> files to rtf in batch. instead of opening each individual
> file and doing a save as.

There's a wn2rtf binary at 

ftp://next-ftp.peak.org/pub/next/apps/utils/converters/wn2rtf.1.0.N.b.gz

You can use it like this:

for i in `/bin/ls *.wn`
do

        short=`basename $i .rtf`

        wn2rtf $i > $short.rtf

done

exit 0

I am not sure how well it deals with anything which is not text. YMMV/etc/etc

TjL


ps -- Hebrew started as of 2 July, and ends on 22 August, so
please understand if responses are slow.  I am taking a 2
semester class in 8 weeks for 6 credits

-- 
TjL   

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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 6 Jul 1997 11:32:36 GMT
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sams@best.com (Samuel G. Streeper) wrote:
>The king has no clothes and this problem is not being
>properly addressed.  It will become a big issue, if obj-c
>or at least openstep is ever to become a significant force.
>

Pardon ?

C++ _is_ a significant force and it deals with this issue in an even crappier 
way (by ignoring it)

So OpenStep at least goes 50% of the way.

Java's GC does 98% (since its not very efficient..mark and sweep)


And it sure will take some time until the crowds realize that their king 
needs some really good clothes (Smalltalk, Dylan, etc.) 

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 16:39:24 +0200
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For better explanations than I can give ( and a working free GC ) see:

   http://reality.sgi.com/employees/boehm_mti/gc.html



Charles William Swiger  wrote:

> Why would one have to use a conservative GC in the first place?

One wants GC (well, at least I do;-), one wants it to be entirely
transparent and one wants it to perform well. How this is implemented is
a don't care. It so happens that conservative collectors fills those
requirements and works very well in C/C++ where other garbage collection
techniques fail and that is why one wants to use a conservative
collector. 

Your question might be interpreted to imply that conservative collectors
are bad. I have no reason to beleive they are bad and in my experience
they are not bad. Speed is comparable to or faster than other techniques
and they are safe. So my question to you is: Why would one not want to
use conservative GC?

Perhaps you are asking why one wants GC at all? or why one would prefer
GC over reference counting or fully manual memory management? There are
lots of reasons: Development effort. Reusability. Funcionality. Safety.
Debugging. Space performance. CPU-performance... See for example: 

   http://reality.sgi.com/employees/boehm_mti/issues.html

>  It's
> because the GC cannot be sure which regions are used or not because of C
> pointer semantics, so it _must_ use a conservative strategy.

Yes. This can also be interpreted as if you consider this a problem, but
it is not a problem. Conservative GC works fine.

> A Java GC does not have to be conservative because Java's pointer
> semantics guarantee that the garbage collector can determine with
> certainty whether a region is in use or not.

The only thing this might theoretically buy you is speed and Boehm
claims that his conservative collector is faster than the Java GCs he
has encountered. I don't know Java and am not particularly interested,
but for C++, experience shows that his allocator with conservative
collections beats most manual malloc/free new/delete without collectors
so where is the problem? There is no problem!

> > You'd have to work hard to fool the collector.
> 
> Not very hard at all-- a circularly linked list or other
> self-referential data structure is generally sufficient to prevent a
> conservative GC from ever freeing the memory.

No. If there is no path from a root pointer to a block then it can be
collected even if there are pointers pointing at it from other
unreachable blocks including itself. The key is that there has to be a
path from the root set to the block. Not that there might be pointers
pointing at it. If those other pointers are unreachable then the block
can still be collected.

 root    :  free store
  set    : +---------------------------------------+
         : |  +-------------+      +-------------+ |
 +--+    : +->|             |----->|             | |
 |  |-------->|             |      |             +-+
 +--+    :    |             |<-----|             |  
         :    +-------------+      +-------------+  
  P            A                    B

If you break the link or links between root set (your program variables)
and the free store then there is no way to reach any of the blocks in
the group of blocks on the free store and they are all garbage that can
all be collected. A conservative collector can handle this.

The root set is global + local vars including registers (+ anything that
you might want to manually add to the root set). The root set is
expanded by the dynamically allocated blocks reachable from the roots.
If it is impossible to construct a path from the root set to a block
then it is unreachable by the user and therefor garbage that can be
collected. 

Self-referential data or a circular linked list will certainly not fool
a conservative collector. When no one is holding on to it, it can be
collected. 

Reference counting is unable to cope with this kind of data because,
looking at figure above, there are three references to A and dropping P
wont turn that into zero. It is still referenced by two pointers and A
wont go away unless you manually make it go away. If you must do that
then why bother with reference counts at all? This is manual
deallocation.

> > Much harder than with non collecting allocators (where the collector is
> > you). Arbitrary pointer references (I suppose you mean block referenced
> > only by a pointer to the interior of an allocated block(?))
> 
> I meant the fact that this type of behavior is permitted:
> 
>     #define SOME_INT (12345)    // or pick your own magic number
>     void *ptr = (void *) SOME_INT;

GC operates on dynamically allocated data. Pointers that you've received
from the allocator. There is no way that you can predict the actual
address of a block received from the allocator so that it can be
hardcoded like your example. The above will not fool the collector
because it has nothing to do with the free store. There is a small
possibility that 12345 will be interpreted as a pointer to allocated
data and therefor will prevent collection of that block for a while.
This probability is low and usually quite harmless. The worst that can
happen is that a block of memory is held back from reuse until the false
pointer is gone.

Certainly there are ways to fool the collector, but they all include
strange and wonderful treatment of pointers. Techniques best avoided
anyway and almost always illegal. Things that might happen to work on
this particular version of this particular compiler, but that will break
on another compiler or the next version of the compiler. In this area of
"undefined behaviour" there are things that may fool the collector.
There are always better ways than utilizing "undefined behaviour". By
the way "undefined behaviour" is a term defined in the C++ language
spec. It means illegal, but no diagnostic required. The program may or
may not appear to compile, and anything may happen when the program is
run (including what one expects). It's simply not defined and therefor
not something to rely on. 

Avoiding such techniques should be especially important on
OpenStep/NeXT/Rhapsody or whatever it will be called because of its
portability claims. These programs will run on many different
processors, be compiled with many different compilers and run on many
different core OS. Avoiding "undefined behaviour" ought to be very
important in that context. One way of reducing that problem is to
localize the use of implementation peculiarities to one single module -
the collector. Makes porting easier.

> > and pointer arithmetic is certainly not a problem.
> 
> You are mistaken.  It's perfectly valid for me to take a pointer to a
> memory region, and subtract 10000 from it if in the future, I always add
> 10000 to the pointer before dereferencing it.  Of course, this is a simple
> and contrived example to demonstrate the problem.

No, I'm not misstaken and no, your example is definitely illegal. A
pointer must point at an object otherwise it's not valid and may not be
used. For arrays a pointer must point at one of the elements of the
array or at the imaginary nth+1 element directly after the array. No
other pointers are valid. Using such pointers is illegal and invokes
"undefined behaviour". When reading the sections in the language spec
(5.7/5 and /6) describing pointer arithmetic please note the recurring
phrase "...otherwise, the behavior is undefined." and undefined
behaviour is bad news.

> A non-contrived example would be something like simulating a
> base-and-bounds register combination for managing memory regions, where
> any pointer references within a particular region explicitly are added
> to the base register of that region in order to determine the actual
> memory address being referenced.
> 
> Doing this type of thing will confuse even a conservative garbage
> collector into thinking the memory region is not in use when it is.

For a conservative collector to work there has to be a pointer,
reachable from the roots, to or into, the allocated block. Pointers
derived from that by pointer arithmetic (legal or not) pointing outside
the block has no effect. So all it takes is: Thing* holder = new Thing;
Thing* p = holder; p -= 50000; /* no problem */ (instead of holder -=
50000;) This is illegal anyway and wont work on some segmented
architectures.

> > The things that might make the collector fail - collect and
> > reuse live data - are things that invokes "undefined behaviour" and
> > therefor is illegal and will probably fail anyway, with or without GC.
> 
> You are mistaken.  Go read a second edition of the K&R and you will
> discover that the ANSI-C language has precisely defined semantics for
> pointer arithmetic.

I am still not misstaken and legal pointer arithmetic will not fool a
conservative collector. The pointer arithmetic C++ (I know the C++
language spec but in this area I have no reason to beleive ANSI-C is
different) allows you to do is rather more restricted than most people
expect. For one thing, all arithmetic is constrained by the definition
of a valid pointer. Valid pointers can't point anywhere. They can only
point at, into or directly after an array. If they don't then they by
definition are unusable and using them anyway results in "undefined
behaviour" - a program error.

> The fact that garbage collection algorithms break when confronted with
> conformant, working ANSI-C code indicates that adding GC was the problem.

Conservative garbage collection does not fall apart when confronted with
conformant, working ANSI-C code;-) It may fail with non conformant code
where the programmer plays unportable and illegal tricks with pointers,
like I explained in the first post.

A short quote from Hans Boehm's web page mentioned above:
> Conservative garbage collectors require mild restrictions on both the
> source code and the compiler. The source program must not ``hide'' 
> pointers in such a way that they are invisible to the collector. There
> are very few ways in which a strictly conforming ANSI C program could
> hide pointers. Writing and retrieving them from a file is one way. For
> some collector configurations, using memcpy to copy pointers to 
> unaligned locations is another. Casts tfrom pointers to integers and 
> back to pointers can cause problems. The most common problem is probably
> to refer to an object by pointing to a known offset before the beginning
> of the object. The last one is clearly not legal C code. All are 
> uncommon even in existing code.

Another way to hide pointers that would succeed to fool the collector
taken from Macintosh programming would be to store the *only* reference
to an object in the RefCon field of a WindowRecord. The WindowRecord is
allocated by a system call with memory outside of the collectors reach.
Easily avoided.

 - Lars


-- 
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se  -  Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
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From: dre32d@msn.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: sell/your/photos$$$$$
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:16:36
Organization: Miracle Net Communications, Inc.
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<~Phone: 718-651-8145>

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From: wtetwutqrttirtyjr@kjpttypppstwtthy.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: YOUR VIRTUAL OFFICE CAN DO EVERYTHING!!!
Date: 6 Jul 1997 16:04:18 GMT
Organization: Internet MCI
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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 6 Jul 1997 18:48:34 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
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	<5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> 
	<5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>  
	<19970705124505517300@dialup76-3-36.swipnet.se>  
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Cc: lars.farm@ite.mh.se

In <199707061639241455966@dialup156-4-13.swipnet.se> Lars Farm wrote:
> For better explanations than I can give ( and a working free GC ) see:

This entire point is moot as conservative GC's which scan the data area of a 
process break when using distributed objects. You'd have to combine it with a 
reference counting scheme in order to effectively vend objects to the 
network. I've written Objective-C programs which deal with live data areas of 
256M and greater; while they're not a majority of the code out there, a VM 
scanner would clearly have some ill effects on software of that type.

The OpenStep system works if you follow the policy. The policy is clear and 
well defined. I have no problem with a vendor shipping, say, a third party 
garbage collector for people to use, but making GC part of OpenStep or the 
language proper is uncalled for. With the addition of Java to Rhapsody's 
OpenStep implementation, making GC part of ObjC seems silly.

Dave

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: ftr45r@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: writers=seeking=publication
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 15:36:42
Organization: Miracle Net Communications, Inc.
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From: Sarah Marsden
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: free report
Date: 6 Jul 97 06:12:34 GMT
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Sun,  6 Jul 1997 19:12:05 -0400
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 6-Jul-97 Re: [Q]
OpenStep Garbage Co.. by Lars Farm@ite.mh.se 
>> Why would one have to use a conservative GC in the first place?
[ ... ]
> Your question might be interpreted to imply that conservative collectors
> are bad. I have no reason to beleive they are bad and in my experience
> they are not bad. Speed is comparable to or faster than other techniques
> and they are safe. So my question to you is: Why would one not want to
> use conservative GC?

You are attempting to make a virtue out of necessity.

The point of my question was to demonstrate the fact that one is
required to use a conservative garbage collector with C code because
non-conservative garbage collectors are likely to fail when used with
most non-trivial C programs.

> Perhaps you are asking why one wants GC at all? or why one would prefer
> GC over reference counting or fully manual memory management?

No, I wasn't asking those questions.  I'm not interested in an advocacy
debate over the merits of garbage collection.  Like many other concepts,
GC is an appropriate and efficient solution for some problem domains and
an inappropriate and/or inefficient solution for others.

[ ... ]
>> It's because the GC cannot be sure which regions are used or not because of
>> C pointer semantics, so it _must_ use a conservative strategy.
>  
> Yes.

Well, that was the point of my question above.

> This can also be interpreted as if you consider this a problem, but
> it is not a problem. Conservative GC works fine.

Sometimes.  Sometimes not.
  
>> A Java GC does not have to be conservative because Java's pointer
>> semantics guarantee that the garbage collector can determine with
>> certainty whether a region is in use or not.
>  
> The only thing this might theoretically buy you is speed and Boehm
> claims that his conservative collector is faster than the Java GCs he
> has encountered.

Java's semantics buy you more than that-- the Java GC is guaranteed that
it can always free all unused memory because (for example) it cannot be
fooled by integer aliases that appear to be valid pointers.  A
conservative GC is therefore likely to use more space than a
non-conservative GC.

>>> You'd have to work hard to fool the collector.
>> 
>> Not very hard at all-- a circularly linked list or other
>> self-referential data structure is generally sufficient to prevent a
>> conservative GC from ever freeing the memory.
>  
> No. If there is no path from a root pointer to a block then it can be
> collected even if there are pointers pointing at it from other
> unreachable blocks including itself. The key is that there has to be a
> path from the root set to the block. Not that there might be pointers
> pointing at it. If those other pointers are unreachable then the block
> can still be collected.
>  
>  root    :  free store
>   set    : +---------------------------------------+
>          : |  +-------------+      +-------------+ |
>  +--+    : +->|             |----->|             | |
>  |  |-------->|             |      |             +-+
>  +--+    :    |             |<-----|             |  
>          :    +-------------+      +-------------+  
>   P            A                    B
>  
> If you break the link or links between root set (your program variables)
> and the free store then there is no way to reach any of the blocks in
> the group of blocks on the free store and they are all garbage that can
> all be collected. A conservative collector can handle this.

I understand how a mark-and-sweep or copying collector works.

The problem comes in that unless you explicitly NULL old pointers to
dynamic structures, they will continue to point to them and the GC will
not free that memory.  This means that such structures will stay around
either forever if the pointer variable is global or automatic, or will
stay around until after the call stack has recursed past the frame
containing the local pointer variables.

And if you're going to have to explicitly decide to NULL pointers to
avoid leaking uncollectable memory, then there is no gain in convenience
over something like NeXT's current reference counting scheme where you'd
send a -release message.

And if you use local pointer variables and are willing to let old memory
stay uncollected until the call stack pops back and frees the local
pointers, what's the difference in convenience between that and using
-autorelease?

And, of course, there is the issue of pointer references not present in
the address space of the current process-- such as memory being
referenced via Distributed Objects.

[ ... ]
> Reference counting is unable to cope with this kind of data because,
> looking at figure above, there are three references to A and dropping P
> wont turn that into zero.  It is still referenced by two pointers and A
> wont go away unless you manually make it go away. If you must do that
> then why bother with reference counts at all? This is manual
> deallocation.

That depends entirely upon how smart your reference counting scheme is. 
OPENSTEP/NEXTSTEP uses a system where valid pointers to objects memory
have an implicit reference count of 1, and where the system maintains a
global structure that keeps track of objects which have a higher
reference count number.

Simply assigning pointers around does not change the reference count, so
it is perfectly possible to create self-referential structures which
will be autoreleased later without any manual memory management.

[ ...GC advocacy & "undefined behaviour" snipped.... ]
>> You are mistaken.  It's perfectly valid for me to take a pointer to a
>> memory region, and subtract 10000 from it if in the future, I always add
>> 10000 to the pointer before dereferencing it.  Of course, this is a simple
>> and contrived example to demonstrate the problem.
>  
> No, I'm not misstaken and no, your example is definitely illegal.  A
> pointer must point at an object otherwise it's not valid and may not be
> used. For arrays a pointer must point at one of the elements of the
> array or at the imaginary nth+1 element directly after the array. No
> other pointers are valid. Using such pointers is illegal and invokes
> "undefined behaviour".

If one was using a strictly conforming implementation of the ANSI spec,
I take it back-- you're right.  However, it is also permissible by the
ANSI spec for conforming implementations to define the results for
"undefined" operations, so long as they do not change the meaning of any
strictly conforming program.  Therefore, "undefined behavior according
to ANSI" does not mean the same thing as "illegal" (presumably in the
sense that the results of the operation will not be well defined).

One expectation people have of reasonable implementations is that
pointers can be converted to some available integral type (generally int
or long) and back to a pointer without a loss of representation.

Another is that addition or subtraction on pointers produces a result
which is congruent mod 2**n to the true mathematical result which would
be obtained from doing the operation using unsigned arithmetic on
variables of size n, where n is the number of bits required to represent
the pointer.   [Where the non-pointer variable is multiplied by the size
of the data type being referred to by the pointer in question, of
course.]

My personal preference would be for the ANSI spec to adopt these
expectations given that they are commonly made.  Neither of the above
requires the implementation to provide an integral type which is the
same size in bits as a pointer, nor should they cause problems under a
segmented memory architecture.

Anyway, this is getting off-topic.  Time to stop here....  :-)

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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Date: 6 Jul 1997 22:16:32 GMT
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From: emclean@slip.net (Emmett McLean)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to scroll from keyboard
Date: 6 Jul 1997 20:56:17 -0700
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Hi,

Is there a way to scroll to the bottom
of a terminal session without draging
the scroll-bar-circle-box downward
til it won't move?

I sometimes use Command-F to search
for text and it would be nice if
I could type Command-Something to
return to typing.

Thanks,

Emmett

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From: emclean@slip.net (Emmett McLean)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Seek equivalent to Windows Alt-Tab
Date: 6 Jul 1997 20:59:16 -0700
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Hi,

Is there a NeXT equivalent to Window's Alt-Tab ?

I'd like to switch applications from the command
line sometimes without lifting my hand from the
keyboard.

Thanks,

Emmett

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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to scroll from keyboard
Date: 7 Jul 1997 00:20:36 -0400
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In article <5pppd1$hhr@slip.net>, emclean@slip.net (Emmett McLean) wrote:

> Is there a way to scroll to the bottom
> of a terminal session without draging
> the scroll-bar-circle-box downward
> til it won't move?

Assuming you're using Terminal.app:

Go to Preferences.  Select Display from the pop-up list.  In the Other
Options box, check the "Scroll to the bottom of the window when input is
received" checkbox.  Then click the Set Default button.
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From: webmaster@jpl.nasa.gov
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ncr,comp.sys.newton.misc,comp.sys.newton.programmer,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.marketplace,comp.sys.next.misc,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: !Most Recent Mars Photos&Info!
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 01:45:28 -1200
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Due to the intense pressure on our servers, we have configured our 
software for this site;

http://38.217.84.11/~nasa2/marspath.html

to transfer traffic to the least busy sight available. Hopefully this 
will 
speed up access times. Remember, the pictures at these sites are 
updated 
in real-time. As soon as we get them, you get them. Once again;

http://38.217.84.11/~nasa2/marspath.html

Thanks for your patience, and thank you to the 100 Million visitors 
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From: dix.lorenz@hamburg.netsurf.de (Dix Lorenz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.sysadmin
Subject: PTR: Problems and questions
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 21:42:36 +0200
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Hi,
recently I received the Prelude to Rhapsody package and while it cleared
up some questions for me, it opened up some new ones.
8 weeks ago I bought OpenStep Developer/Mach 4.1 and have been fiddling
around with it, creating small apps, sometimes also using C++. No
problem. What I wanted to know from PTR: How does all this work under
Windows?

Result:
Win 3.51: Developing is just the same. Apps I wrote under Mach I could
just recompile and they would run under Windows, just as promised. Cool.
BUT: Everything that I tried to compile using C++ complained about a
missing header file . I am pretty sure this is not my problem, but
a compiler problem. Question: I know PTR is a prerelease version. Is
this fixed in the final release? Has someone managed to compile
Objective-C++ using PTR?
Win95: Mixed results: Some of the apps which got installed ran, some
didn't. Mine didn't. Again: Is this because it is prerelease?

In other words: how is the current release of OpenStep Developer/NT
different from the one in PTR?

Thanks,
Dix
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From: mpaque.spa-am@nospam.wco.com (Mike Paquette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 6 Jul 1997 23:34:10 -0700
Organization: Electronics Service Unit No. 16
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In article <199707061639281456216@dialup156-4-13.swipnet.se>  
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
> Reference counting is nothing but a very poor implementation of GC.

It has the advantage of working over an allocation pool spread over  
multiple address spaces, or processes.

This discussion reminds me of the tale of the blind men and the  
elephant....


-- 
    Mike Paquette  (mpaque AT wco.com ; Yank that .spa-am and nospam to reply.)

Well, if there *were* anything to say, it would be with the understanding
that the PR/Marketing people want to make the announcements on products,
so anything I have to say wouldn't actually exist until after then, so
what I might have to say now doesn't exist, and what I may say in future
can't be said, so theoretically what exists, doesn't, for the immediate future. 
		(With apologies to Joe Straczynski)
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From: erich@powerwareintl.com (Eric Harley)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Porting NeXTStep App to OpenStep
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 23:23:18 -0800
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How easy is it to port a NeXTStep application under 3.3 to OpenStep for
Mach on Intel 4.2? 
Considering I dont have access to a NeXTStep machine, will I be able to
pull this off?
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From: cdr43a@aol.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: *writers/seeking/publication
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 04:10:28
Organization: Miracle Net Communications, Inc.
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We are a New York based international literary agency with two branch offices, one of 
which is in Florida. We are seeking new and previously published authors, so please 
adhere to the following guidelines.

All fiction: send brief synopsis, first chapter, and include a self addressed, stamped
envelope (SASE).
All nonfiction: brief synopsis, first chapter, SASE.
Short Stories: brief synopsis, 3 pages, SASE.
Poetry: send 3 poems, SASE.
Please do not send complete manuscript unless we ask for it.

Send to: Woodside International Literary Agency
33-29 58 Street>>>>>>>>
Woodside, New York>>>>>>>>
11377>>>>>>>
Phone (main office):
718-651-8145>>>>>>>


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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: Porting NeXTStep App to OpenStep
Date: 7 Jul 1997 08:19:35 GMT
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In  Eric Harley 
wrote:
> How easy is it to port a NeXTStep application under 3.3 to OpenStep for
> Mach on Intel 4.2? 

Depends on the size of the app. It's not very hard, but some things require a 
little different way of wrapping your brain around things.

> Considering I dont have access to a NeXTStep machine, will I be able to
> pull this off?

Well, in this case, it's probably pretty hard.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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Date: Mon Jul  7 11:40:11 1997

Original subject was:
*writers/seeking/publication

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Date: Mon Jul  7 11:57:43 1997

Original subject was:
YOUR VIRTUAL OFFICE CAN DO EVERYTHING!!!

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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:39:01 +0200
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Mike Paquette  wrote:

> In article <199707061639281456216@dialup156-4-13.swipnet.se>  
> lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) writes:
> > Reference counting is nothing but a very poor implementation of GC.
> 
> It has the advantage of working over an allocation pool spread over  
> multiple address spaces, or processes.
> 
> This discussion reminds me of the tale of the blind men and the  
> elephant....

Quite possibly. I started off in the first post by saying I'm a Mac
programmer and that I don't know Obj-C. I do know C++ and I do know
about GC and I do know about the general technique called reference
counting. So tell me what is it about Obj-C or the NeXT frameworks that
makes it less suitable for GC than than C or C++?


-- 
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se  -  Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
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From: Erik Doernenburg 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.software
Subject: Re: CVS and .nib files
Date: 7 Jul 1997 07:37:42 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
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fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier) wrote:
> In article <5pfda8$3hg$1@hermes.is.co.za>,   wrote:
> >On 07/02/97, Vincent Kohler wrote:
> 
> >The only problem I had with wrappers is that I couldn't find the 
> >"wrap" and "unwrap" Utilities and I wrote my own. Was this the right 
> >thing to do or did I miss something somewhere
> 
> My distribution of cvs didn't have wrap and unwrap either (it's a cvs
> 1.9 which I found on the RedHat Linux CD). I simply use tar instead
> and everything seems to work fine.

My colleague who updated our installation to 1.9 said the same. When I 
installed 1.7, however, I found the two utilities in the sample cvsroot. 
Since they are not too long I'll include them below.

There's another problem with wrappers though: When you use the cvs server, 
maybe because you cannot export the cvsroot via NFS, they don't work! The 
directories will be treated like files and all you get is junk. This is a 
known problem (at least since 1.7) and eventhough some people seem to be 
working on it I've never heard of a fix.

enjoy
erik


-------8<---------------------------------------------------------------
#! /bin/sh
#
#	wrap - Combine a directory into a single tar package.
#
#ident	"@(#)cvs/examples:$Name:  $:$Id: wrap,v 1.1 1996/01/17 14:38:58 erik 
Exp $"

# This script is always called with the current directory set to
# where the file to be combined exists. but i may get called with a
# path to where cvs first started executing. (this probably should be
# fixed in cvs) so strip out all of the directory information. The
# first sed expression will only work if the path has a leading /
# if it doesn't the one in the if statement will work.
DIRNAME=`echo $1 | sed -e "s|/.*/||g"`
if [ ! -d $DIRNAME ] ; then
      DIRNAME=`echo $1 | sed -e "s|.*/||g"`
fi
#
# Now tar up the directory but we now will only get a relative path
# even if the user did a cvs commit . at the top.
#
gnutar --preserve --sparse -cf - $DIRNAME | gzip --no-name --best -c > $2
-------8<---------------------------------------------------------------


-------8<---------------------------------------------------------------
#! /bin/sh
#
#	unwrap - extract the combined package (created with wrap)
#
#ident	"@(#)cvs/examples:$Name:  $:$Id: unwrap,v 1.1 1996/01/17 14:38:59 
erik Exp $"

# move the file to a new name with an extension
rm -rf $1.cvswrap
mv $1 $1.cvswrap

# untar the file

if `gzip -t $1.cvswrap > /dev/null 2>&1`
then
	gzcat -d $1.cvswrap | gnutar --preserve --sparse -x -f -
else
	gnutar --preserve --sparse -x -f $1.cvswrap
fi

# remove the original
rm -rf $1.cvswrap
-------8<---------------------------------------------------------------


-- Erik Drnenburg   
-- OBJECT FACTORY
-- Gesellschaft fr Informatik und Datenverarbeitung mbH
-- http://www.object-factory.com/~erik
	    
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From: rog@ohm.york.ac.uk (Roger Peppe)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 7 Jul 1997 11:23:44 GMT
Organization: Department of Electronics, University of York, UK.
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On Sat, 5 Jul 1997 12:45:05 +0200, Lars Farm  wrote:
> Many claim that reference counting is as good as GC and is enough, but
> this is not the case. Reference counting wont solve cyclic references
> and is not automatic. If you must manually increment/decrement a counter
> then where is the difference from saying new/delete? It's a very minor
> gain compared to proper garbage collection.

at least one system does automatic reference counted garbage
collection, while retaining the ability to create self referential
structures.  it's called Inferno (see http://www.lucent.com/inferno/).
(sadly, it doesn't run under openstep)

so it is possible - and once you've seen such an animal, other creature
in the garbage collection zoo seem inadequate.  most data structures
are *not* self-referential, and it seems silly to pay the price, in
unpredictable time and memory overheads, for the few that are.

the openstep implementation of reference counting is however a complete
mess; allocation and deallocation primitives should be the simplest and
best understood primitives in the language. instead, as is evident from
the questions and sometimes hesitant answers seen in this thread, the
openstep scheme has created a half baked mish mash of unclear
obligations and untrusted promises that makes it that much harder to
produce reliable, robust code.

  cheers,
    rog.

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From: wegmann@talisker.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Frank Wegmann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Sun Sparc TOO!  (was  Re: Prelude2Rhapsody on black hardware!)
Followup-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Date: 07 Jul 1997 15:39:48 GMT
Organization: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum, Rechenzentrum
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In-reply-to: thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu's message of 27 Jun 1997 18:46:39 GMT
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:239352 comp.sys.next.programmer:25251

In article <5p11qf$ar2$2@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff) writes:

> Prelude installed on a friend's Sparc trivially.  No muss no fuss.
> It was a trivial installation.

Well, almost.  You cannot boot from the PTR CD (at least on my SS20), so
you need a bootable NS3.3/OS4.x CD-ROM.  Then change disks at the boot prompt
and continue.  From that point, installation is a no-brainer.

Frank
-- 
Frank Wegmann              voice: +49 234 700 7677 / +49 234 700 2461
Sprachwiss. Institut       fax  : +49 234 7094 137
Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum   email: wegmann@linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de,
44780 Bochum                      wegmann@acm.org (NeXTmail, MIME welcome)
Germany                    WWW  : http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de
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From: wegmann@talisker.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de (Frank Wegmann)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: URGENT: How To Access (SCSI) CD-ROM drives under OS/NT?
Date: 07 Jul 1997 15:53:25 GMT
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We are currently porting an application from NEXTSTEP to OPENSTEP,
leading to the usual bunch of problems.  We now got most of it running
under OSNT, even deploying under Windows 95.  However, one part is
(mission) critical: we need to access a CD-ROM drive (for audio CDs)
from the Windows application.  We used SCSI ioctls under NEXTSTEP,
which happen to work under OS/Mach exactly the same way.  But how can
we use ioctls under OS/NT?  We found header files such as winioctl.h,
but without a hint to the appropriate library function.

Do we need another dev environment such as VC++?  How can we link our
OPENSTEP application against Windows DLLs?  If anybody has already any
experience in that field, this would definitely help us a lot, since
we *must* demo the app under Windows RSN.

TIA,

Frank Wegmann

-- 
Frank Wegmann              voice: +49 234 700 7677 / +49 234 700 2461
Sprachwiss. Institut       fax  : +49 234 7094 137
Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum   email: wegmann@linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de,
44780 Bochum                      wegmann@acm.org (NeXTmail, MIME welcome)
Germany                    WWW  : http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de
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From: Iracly 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to split classes hierarhy to bundles
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 18:10:42 +0400
Organization: Radio-MSU NOC, Moscow State University
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Is anybody have idea how to divide class hierarhy to different loadable
bundles. Under Windows I can just declare class as __export/__import and
then link any other DLL (even with derived classes) with import library.
Is some analogues under OPENSTEP? When I just try to compile "derived
bundle" I got UNRESOLVED EXTERNAL ... message from linker, If I make
some dummy implementation of base class in derived bundle, than after I
load derived bundle, the original base class was replased with dummy
implementation from second one!

PS I use OPENSTEP developer v4.2 prerelease 2 for NT 

Regards

Iracly (iracly@com2com.ru or iracly@rat.radio-msu.net)
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From: William.Clocksin@CL.cam.ac.uk
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How to set up Renderman printing?
Date: 7 Jul 1997 14:31:00 GMT
Organization: University of Cambridge, England
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Every time I use a RenderMan-based plotting app, the data displays nicely 
on the screen. But whenever I try to print it, I get a panel asking for a 
renderer host (which the only choice is localhost), and then error panel 
complaining that it can't connect to localhost. What should I do to get 
this working? Thanks.

William Clocksin
wfc@CL.cam.ac.uk
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ECP/EMP aka SPAM or pyramidal scheme (MMF) cancelled by bofh@keltia.freenix.fr.
It may also be an image too small for newsbot to be activated.
See report in news.admin.net-abuse.bulletins.

Date: Mon Jul  7 16:22:31 1997

Original subject was:
free report

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to scroll from keyboard
Date: Mon,  7 Jul 1997 10:27:39 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 6-Jul-97 How to scroll
from keyboard by Emmett McLean@slip.net 
> Is there a way to scroll to the bottom
> of a terminal session without draging
> the scroll-bar-circle-box downward
> til it won't move?

Yes.  If you look in "Info->Preferences/Display" and enable the "Scroll
to the botton of the window...", and you need to do is start typing.

> Is there a NeXT equivalent to Window's Alt-Tab ?

Sort of.  Command-up/down arrow will raise and lower windows from the
keyboard.  This does not change the key window, although I believe you
can do a simple hack to the WindowServer PostScript code to get that
behavior as well.

By the way, these questions probably don't belong in .programmer; .misc
would have been better.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Patrick Schulz 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Developer UI
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 10:05:31 -0500
Organization: AMD Fab30
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Hi out there,

> Erik M. Buck wrote:
[...]
> 
> Art Isbell wrote:
[...]
> 
> dyoung@vvi.com wrote:
[...]

you already discussed a bunch of things I just want to 
add another topic. I don't know the 4.2 released  
version of PB, but I'm afraid it's still missing the 
great variable browser for gdb that PB3.3 (actually
it was an Edit bundle) had. I really wonder why there 
are that less complaints about it.
This browser was THE reason for me to do almost all
my serious debug-work on my NeXT system. If you
have ever worked with large structures (trees/woods) 
you know what a hassle debugging might be, if you can't
dereference your pointers very easily.
OK, ups can do that for X11 but you waste the whole
screen, same for ddd...
But we're talking about OPENSTEP and there's no
substitute at all.
So, please guys in the PB-team, I can live without
a stack view, but give me back that neat variable
browser ! 


Patrick.
-- 

Patrick Schulz; 1704 Nelms Dr. #2025; Austin, TX 78744
email: pschulz@symphony.amd.com (MIME welcome)
-
 vmunix: panic - no coffee detected, user halted.
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From: "Eric K. Ringger" 
Subject: Re: Looking for an expert system shell 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "02 Jul 1997 14:49:50 GMT."
             <33ba6a8e.0@epflnews.epfl.ch> 
Message-ID: <199707071603.MAA13005@micro.cs.rochester.edu>
Sender: ringger@cs.rochester.edu (Eric K. Ringger)
Cc: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: University of Rochester Computer Science Dept
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 12:03:29 -0400
Lines: 22

In comp.sys.next.programmer, Marco Scheurer wrote:
>I'm looking for an expert system shell I could easily use with 
>NEXTSTEP 3.3. More specifically, I am looking for a forward chaining 
>inference engine.
>
>Any reference to available systems, source code, commercial or not 
>would be greatly appreciated.
[...]

CLIPS might meet your requirements.  I suppose you'll need to search
for the distribution, since I don't have a URL on hand.  I seem to
recall that one of the NASA labs developed it, but I could be wrong.

Good Luck.
--Eric

---
Eric K. Ringger              mailto:ringger@cs.rochester.edu
Dept. of Computer Science    Office: +1-716-275-0922; Lab: +1-716-275-1083
University of Rochester      Fax: +1-716-461-2018
Rochester, NY 14627-0226     http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/ringger/
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From: nomoreshit@fromnetcops.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ENLOW WAR ON THE NET
Date: 7 Jul 1997 07:41:25 GMT
Organization: IMT
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tfx-us4-15.ix.netcom.com


Angered Spy/Research Expert and now, Leading
Business Consultant, tells "the rest of the story." 
What the news & Wired forgot to tell... 

Just search the Web - we're now the largest chain 
of WEB SITES on the net for supporting entrepreneurs 
and businesses wishing to grow using his techniques. He gave
them fair warning... But they didn't 
listen...  

CH

http://michaelenlow.by.net/spamwar.html 





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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 18:48:06 +0200
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Charles William Swiger  wrote:

> Java's semantics buy you more than that-- the Java GC is guaranteed that
> it can always free all unused memory because (for example) it cannot be
> fooled by integer aliases that appear to be valid pointers.  A
> conservative GC is therefore likely to use more space than a
> non-conservative GC.

A copying collector needs a heapsize of at least twice the allocated
size for copying. A conservative collector can make do with less. There
are techniques for conservative collectors to deal with false pointers,
so false pointers are more a theoretical problem than a practical
problem. It's not zero, but not a real problem either. As for speed, a
copying collector must touch every allocated byte when copying, but a
conservative collector needs only touch pointers to allocated blocks.
Well written conservative collectors (like Boehms) holds their own
against copying collectors both on memory usage and speed. It is true
that they could become even better with language support, but they are
still very good without. Saying GC is ok, but not if it is conservative
GC simply doesn't make sense to me and I think that is what you're
saying.

> The problem comes in that unless you explicitly NULL old pointers to
> dynamic structures, they will continue to point to them and the GC will
> not free that memory.  This means that such structures will stay around
> either forever if the pointer variable is global or automatic, or will
> stay around until after the call stack has recursed past the frame
> containing the local pointer variables.

So don't use global variables;-) This "problem" is the same with any
kind of GC. It would be the same in Lisp, Smalltalk, Java or Eiffel
regardless of how the GC was implemented. It is also the same for
reference counting. What does that have to do with conservative GC
beeing an inferior kind of GC and therefor not worthy of using? Does
this mean that you're arguing against GC in general, not against
conservative GC?

> And if you're going to have to explicitly decide to NULL pointers to
> avoid leaking uncollectable memory, then there is no gain in convenience
> over something like NeXT's current reference counting scheme where you'd
> send a -release message.

... or say free() in C, delete in C++ or dispose in Pascal. What is your
point?

> And if you use local pointer variables and are willing to let old memory
> stay uncollected until the call stack pops back and frees the local
> pointers, what's the difference in convenience between that and using
> -autorelease?

I don't have to say -autorelease and I don't have to know *when* to say
aoutorelease and I don't have to know *which* of all the pointers
refering to an object to say it to and I don't have to worry about
dangling pointers. (Obviously I don't know what -autorelease is I just
treated it as some kind of free() / delete / decr_counter() or such -
perhaps it is much more capable than I assume - feel free to educate
me:-)

> And, of course, there is the issue of pointer references not present in
> the address space of the current process-- such as memory being
> referenced via Distributed Objects.

Yes, that is a problem. There are always lots of problems to solve when
writing a program. Only one of those problems are addressed by GC. 

Your argument is a variation of one of the standard arguments against
GC, not against conservative GC in particular: - "If it doesn't solve
programming problem X as well as reusing unused memory it's no good".
Well, it doesn't. Garbage refers to dynamically allocated RAM, not to
arbitrary external resource. I think a "Distributed Object" falls in the
second category, as does open files, mutexes, semaphors and such.

One nice feature of GC is that it is very single minded. It solves one
problem and one problem only. A very nasty problem. It solves it almost
completely and it has no effect on anything else (unless you want to).
GC returns unused memory. Nothing more. GC is no silver bullet. It's
merely a very useful tool.

This feature, to solve one single problem and do it almost perfectly, is
in every other aspect of Software Engineering considered a Very Good
Thing. High coherence. 

GC is often combined with 'finalization' and finalization can be used to
release other external resourses. Without pretending to know anything
about NeXT distributed objects I assume finalization could be used for
them. Even if not, that is a different problem that has little to do
with reusing unused RAM.

> Simply assigning pointers around does not change the reference count, so
> it is perfectly possible to create self-referential structures which
> will be autoreleased later without any manual memory management.

Then it isn't reference counting. It doesn't count references. Perhaps
only "important" references and semi-manual counting or perhaps even
manual counting? Doesn't that expose one to the usual pointer related
problems with dangling pointers, etc, etc?

> However, it is also permissible by the
> ANSI spec for conforming implementations to define the results for
> "undefined" operations, so long as they do not change the meaning of any
> strictly conforming program.  Therefore, "undefined behavior according
> to ANSI" does not mean the same thing as "illegal" (presumably in the
> sense that the results of the operation will not be well defined).

More than anything it means "non portable". Yes, vendors may define
whatever they want. This doesn't turn their private definitions for
release X.Y into C or C++. Compiler vendors have been known to change
their mind for the next version. Try to find a pair of vendors that
agree on such private definitions;-) Rhapsody is supposed to actively
support portablility to several processors and OSs so I still think
portability ought to be even more important than otherwise.

 - Lars


-- 
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se  -  Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: POSIX, was Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Mon,  7 Jul 1997 13:20:29 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 6-Jul-97 Re: [Q]
OpenStep Garbage Co.. by Mike Paquette@nospam.wco 
> This discussion reminds me of the tale of the blind men and the  
> elephant....

Ouch!  Since I'd prefer to avoid further comparision along those lines,
clearly it's time to change the subject:

Will OPENSTEP or Rhapsody ever have POSIX.1 support?

-Chuck

PS:  Lest anyone think that I did not first try to answer this for
myself, let me note for the record that a web search for the string
"POSIX" via  results in a
grand total of 6 hits, after also enabling a search through the "Apple
Computer" database.

#1-3: NeXTanswers 1125, 2066, & 2068 make the claim that POSIX support
existed circa NEXTSTEP 3.1 to 3.3p1.

#4: NA-1893 claims that one can compile Satan with "cc -posix" if one
were to use the putenv.c file that NeXT provided in lieu of supplying
putenv() with the standard system libraries.

#5: There was the 8/17/94 press release that the HP_PA version of
NEXTSTEP had shipped.  A pity running into that, considering that I know
people who acquired HP 712 Geckos with the hopes of not using HP/UX, and
I also know of a few comparies who paid a goodly amount of money to
purchase the high-end HP 735-xxx series machines in the hopes of using
them as compile servers for NEXTSTEP.

Finally, #6: the search also revealed that in NA-2501 about the 4.2
release of Foundation, someone mentioned POSIX with regard to the topic
of "Avoid[ing] two-digit years and all uses of the "%y" date format
specifier."  But, other than that hopeful indication that there exists
at least one person at NeXT/Apple who still remembers what POSIX is,
there's _nada_.  

Well, in light of my recent chastisement elegantly (and perhaps aptly)
implied above by Mike Paquette, maybe I shouldn't criticise.  Still,
this was an unfortunate series of documents to come across.  While
putenv(), mkfifo(), setsid(), POSIX signal handling, and the like may
not seem that important, I must say that I too am reminded of a certain
tale.

Something along the lines of: "For want of a nail, the kingdom was lost...."


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: *.wn -> .rtf ?
Date: 7 Jul 1997 13:49:18 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
Lines: 20
Message-ID: <5pqs4u$4t7@shelob.afs.com>
References: <5pn159$pst$2@bashir.peak.org>
Reply-To: Greg_Anderson@afs.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 192.149.42.192

Timothy J. Luoma writes
> In <33BC3E3C.49F5@dartmouth.edu> kevin parks wrote:
> > Is there any way to convert all my WriteNow
> > files to rtf in batch. instead of opening each individual
> > file and doing a save as.
> 
> There's a wn2rtf binary at 
> ftp://next-ftp.peak.org/pub/next/apps/utils/converters/wn2rtf.1.0.N.b.gz
> I am not sure how well it deals with anything which is not text.

It doesn't. It also has several known bugs, especially in line spacing 
commands. We rewrote a portion of it several years ago, adding support 
for files that contain graphics (turns them into RTFDs) and fixing the 
most obvious bugs. This version is contained in the document filters 
that ship with WriteUp and PasteUp.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Porting NeXTStep App to OpenStep
Date: 7 Jul 1997 13:53:24 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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Eric Harley writes
> How easy is it to port a NeXTStep application under 3.3 to OpenStep for
> Mach on Intel 4.2? 

Depends on the application. If it's an MCCA "corporate app" built around 
the AppKit and custom classes, shouldn't be too bad. If it's built with 
an older version of EOF, there may be substantial rewriting.

> Considering I dont have access to a NeXTStep machine, will I be able to
> pull this off?

Sure. 4.2 comes with a set of scripts that perform much -- but certainly 
not all -- of the translations. The 3.3 docs are included in 4.x, so you 
can always look up the old methods and functions to see how they used to 
work. And the old Intel binary should still run fine, so you can observe 
its behavior.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
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From: planetary 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Seek equivalent to Windows Alt-Tab
Date: 7 Jul 1997 13:55:23 -0600
Organization: XMission Internet (801 539 0900)
Lines: 10
Message-ID: <5prhjb$kb3@xmission.xmission.com>
References: <5pppik$hli@slip.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: xmission.xmission.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970327; sun4m SunOS 5.5.1]

Emmett McLean  wrote:
: Is there a NeXT equivalent to Window's Alt-Tab ?

Cmd-[Up arrow|Down arrow]

.......kris
-- 
Kristopher Magnusson                kris@xmission.com (no NeXTmail, please)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
               Contains freshness saver packet. DO NOT EAT.
nguage. instead, as is evident from
> the questions and sometimes hesitant answers seen in this thread, the
> openstep scheme has created a half baked mish mash of unclear
> obligations and untrusted promises that makes it that much harder to
> produce reliable, robust code.


Well, I don't know if its that bad!  Since I was the one who started this 
thread, I've learned two things that have made me feel both good and bad...  
Since it does seem a little unclear to people of how GC works on OpenStep, or 
at least of the proper use of it, I don't feel so bad for not fully 
understanding myself.  However, the fact that a simple question about GC has 
turned into such a long thread should raise a flag somewhere at Apple.

    
But what bothers me is the inconsistancy I see in the API.  From my 
perspective, when I'm creating objects, sometimes I need to retain them and 
sometimes I don't.  When I alloc/init an object, its ref count is 
automatically incremented for me. When I use the dictionary class method 
+dictionary to creat a dictionary, I have to explicitly retain it to keep it. 
 Also, I will have to release objects that I didn't explicitly retain myself. 
 This seems inconsistant to me, and what I was looking for in my original 
post was an explanation of why it is this way.

For instance, I think that whenever you create an object, whether its by 
copy, alloc, or special class methods, and you want to keep it around outside 
the scope of the method its created in, then you should have retain it.  
Then, its a simple matter of always matching a retain with a release.  Its 
seems simple and consistant -- so there's probably a reason why its not this 
way!

What is that reason?


--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Mark Trombino             |  J A M S o f t                             |
|    mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  |  Audio DSP Tools for Openstep & Rhapsody   | 
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 7 Jul 1997 20:08:55 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
Lines: 31
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	<5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> 
	<5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>  
	<19970705124505517300@dialup76-3-36.swipnet.se>  
	<199707061639241455966@dialup156-4-13.swipnet.se> <5popa2$sfp$1@darla.visi.com> 
	<1997070718480867755@dialup103-4-10.swipnet.se>
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Cc: lars.farm@ite.mh.se

In <1997070718480867755@dialup103-4-10.swipnet.se> Lars Farm wrote:
> David Young  wrote:
> > The OpenStep system works if you follow the policy. The policy is clear 
and
> > well defined. I have no problem with a vendor shipping, say, a third 
party
> > garbage collector for people to use, but making GC part of OpenStep or 
the
> > language proper is uncalled for. With the addition of Java to Rhapsody's
> > OpenStep implementation, making GC part of ObjC seems silly.
> 
> How come GC is acceptable for OpenStep in Java but GC is not acceptable
> for OpenStep in other languages?

Because GC is part of the Java language specification, of course. Programmers 
programming in Java don't expect to deal with memory management and would 
undoubtedly goof up royally when confronted with *GASP* having to *THINK* 
about cleaning up their objects. Java has "new" but no "delete" (or release). 
Interesting, isn't it?

I don't work for Apple, so I obviously have no idea how they're going to (or 
already have) reconcile(d) Java GC bridged to ObjC for OPENSTEP, and Java GC 
distributed across processes and networks for (P)DO. Recalling the discussion 
of Apple's changes to the ObjC language in comp.lang.objective-c, I'm 
actually starting to get a bit worried.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 7 Jul 1997 20:42:40 GMT
Organization: 21st Century Software, New York City
Lines: 57
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	<5ph9gd$ <19970705124505517300@dialup76-3-36.swipnet.se> <5pqjk0$ble$1@netty.york.ac.uk> 
	<5prfv6$ck3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>
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Cc: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com

In <5prfv6$ck3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> Mark Trombino wrote:
> But what bothers me is the inconsistancy I see in the API.  From my 
> perspective, when I'm creating objects, sometimes I need to retain them and 
> sometimes I don't.  When I alloc/init an object, its ref count is 
> automatically incremented for me. When I use the dictionary class method 
> +dictionary to creat a dictionary, I have to explicitly retain it to keep 
it. 

alloc init sets the retainCount to 1. This is where the retainCount always 
starts. 

+ dictionary and +array and +string are convenience methods. Generally, class 
methods which return an object "in one shot" (like arrayWithObject and such) 
are convenience methods. I can't think of any exceptions offhand, but Read 
The Manual(TM).

Convenience methods create an object _just like alloc init_ but also adds the 
object to the current autorelease pool. So, in this case, the retainCount 
also starts at 1, but when the current autorelease pool is freed, the object 
will get a -release, which will make it hit 0.

All the convenience methods work this way. It's really not inconsistent.

>  Also, I will have to release objects that I didn't explicitly retain 
myself. 
>  This seems inconsistant to me, and what I was looking for in my original 
> post was an explanation of why it is this way.

Yes, you do. alloc init makes retainCount 1; copy also makes retainCount 1. 
Objects created from these methods do need to be either explicitly released 
or autoreleased. Think of copy as just being alloc initWithThisObject.

This was all pretty confusing to me when I first started. Once you get the 
hang of it, it really does make sense.

I suggest you see 
/NextLibrary/Frameworks/Foundation.framework/Resources/English.lproj/Documentation/Reference/Classes/NSAutoreleasePool.rtf 
for more information.

> For instance, I think that whenever you create an object, whether its by 
> copy, alloc, or special class methods, and you want to keep it around 
outside 
> the scope of the method its created in, then you should have retain it.  
> Then, its a simple matter of always matching a retain with a release.  Its 
> seems simple and consistant -- so there's probably a reason why its not 
this 
> way!

That's not how it is. 

See above. I hope this clears up some of your confusion.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

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Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
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From: holger@object-factory.REMOVETHIS.com (Holger Hoffstaette)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CVSBundle but no source ?
Date: 7 Jul 1997 09:12:25 GMT
Organization: Object Factory GmbH (Germany)
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Thomas Engel wrote:
> PB 4.2 is really cool and works nicely, it's cool to have SCM support and 
all 
> these funky headers in the PB.framework.
> 
> BUT the CVS bundle gives me a hard time. It messes up the Project and slows 
> development down so much that I almost dislike using it as much as I like 
the 
> idea of it.
> 
> Is there a reason why this bundle can not be supplyed in source code ? Some 
> small bugs could be fixed so easily and other useful features added so 
easily 
> (like timed automatic status updates etc.)
> Wouldn't it be a good candidate for the Develper/Examples section ?
> 
> Why not put in on NeXTasnwers orinto the MinExamples ?

while (1)
{
  [self shout: @"YES please!" loudly: YES];
}

Holger
--
holger"at"object-factory.com                          (NeXTMail, MIME)
'Where I come from it's important to develop stuff that doesn't suck.'
                                       -- David Young 

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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 7 Jul 1997 22:26:37 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
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In article <5prfv6$ck3@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark  
Trombino) writes:
> But what bothers me is the inconsistancy I see in the API. 

A 'live' object has a reference count >= 1.  An object is released
when its reference count drops to 0.  Therefore, when an object is
allocated ( +alloc ) its reference count has to be 1.

Conceptually, it is also pretty easy:  if you explictly _create_
an object, with +alloc, you are the owner of the object, and
therefore responsible for releasing it.

If you just get a reference to an object by calling some method,
you have to retain the object.  This includes the +dictionary,
+array, +someObject convenience method.  It helps to think of
all the convenience method as creating temporary objects.

The methods that's a bit strange is -copy.  I _think_ that this
is like +alloc because probably 99% of users would want a retain
here anyhow, so autoreleasing would be a waste.  But that's
just me guessing.  (One more guess:  copy gets used a lot in
EOF, which is what got us this behaviour, as well as the 
immutable/mutable distinction that allows -copy to be
implemented as -retain for immutable objects).

Marcel
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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 8 Jul 1997 02:25:51 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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X-Newsreader: NewsFlash [$Revision: 2.275 $] NF-00127-01

On 07/07/97, David Young wrote:>I don't work for Apple, so I obviously have no 
idea how they're going to (or 
>already have) reconcile(d) Java GC bridged to ObjC for OPENSTEP, and Java GC 
>distributed across processes and networks for (P)DO. Recalling the discussion 
>of Apple's changes to the ObjC language in comp.lang.objective-c, I'm 
>actually starting to get a bit worried.

What they said at WWDC... (working from memory)

Conceptually you have two run-times working in parallel - the Obj-C runtime and 
the Java runtime - with a bridge between them.   

When an object gets vended from the Obc-C side to the Java side it gets 
"retained" by the Obj-C run-time.  When the Java GV cleans up the object on the 
Java side it gets "released" on the Obj-C side.

When an object gets vended from the Java side to the OpenStep side an EXTRA 
reference to that object is created by the Java run-time.   This extra reference 
on the Java side does not go away until the object is dealloced on the Obj-C 
side.

This scheme assures that as long as an object is valid in either side it will 
not be freed by either side.  

-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: Alan Hutson 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: biostatistician/systems admin opening
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 14:12:13 -0400
Organization: University of Florida, Dept. of Statistics
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <33C1317D.33FD@stat.ufl.edu>
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CC: ahutson@stat.ufl.edu

The General Clinical Research Center (GCRC) at the University of Florida
is looking for a Statistical Research Coordinator to handle the
day-to-day
operations of the GCRC's Data Services Laboratory (DSL). 

The Statistical Research Coordinator fills multiple roles in assisting
our
researchers and Center staff. He or she will serve as a systems manager,
data manager, and biostatistician. 

The ideal applicant will have a degree in statistics or its equivalent
(preferably MA/MS) with a very strong UNIX computing background
and have experience with statistical software packages such as SAS or
S+.
The applicant will participate in clinical trial design, carry out
power and sample size calculations, and perform statistical analyses.

The applicant will have the following system responsibilities: planning 
of future systems, integration of new systems with existing systems, 
which include Solaris and NEXTSTEP UNIX, a Mac, and Windows PCs,
upgrading 
the operating systems on all machines and maintaining networked services
to 
all machines including the email system, faxes, printing, etc. 
Technical understanding of  services such as  http, CGI-bin, telnet, 
ftp, TCP/IP, NFS, CAP, NIS (yellow pages), NTP, automount, rdist,
sendmail, 
POP, IMAP, and NetInfo is a plus.

Excellent communication and organizational skills are a must.
The salary range for this job is $31,840 - 57,300 depending upon 
experience.

For more information regarding the University of Florida's GCRC,
see http://www.gcrc.ufl.edu or contact Professor Alan Hutson at 
ahutson@stat.ufl.edu.

Please send a letter of application and resume to:

Diana Stetter
Box 115002
Gainesville, FL 32611-5002
(352) 392-4621




AA/EA/EEO. If accommodation is needed please call (352) 392-4621 or 
TDD (352)  392-7734.
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From: penrose@w09.sfc.keio.ac.jp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.sys.next.misc
Subject: NSThread severely degrades event queue access
Date: 08 Jul 1997 11:32:11 +0900
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Fujisawa Japan
Lines: 43
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Howdy Folks:

I am developing an application, under Openstep 4.1 for intel,
which is multithreaded.  In my application, I have a single solitary
method that is run in a seperate thread.  It is spawned with:

        [NSThread detachNewThreadSelector:@selector(mySelector:)
                  toTarget:self withObject:sender];

In this method (as referenced by mySelector) there are no AppKit
objects manipulated, nor are any messages passed to any AppKit
objects.

Elsewhere in the application, in a custom view, mouseDown: is
overridden to implement the dragging of another view.

When this view is dragged on the screen before the application becomes
mult-threaded (while [NSThread isMultiThreaded] returns NO) the dragging
is smooth and continuous.  

If I execute mySelector: in the same thread as the application, the dragging
performance is also smooth.

However, as soon as the application becomes multithreaded, e.g.
[NSThread isMultiThreaded] returns YES), the dragging behavior
degrades drastically: the view stutters when dragged.  A huge
(sometimes as humungous as 500ms) latency is introduced.  This latency
remains in the application ever after, even though the detached thread
has exitted.

Why is this happening?  Are there any ways to alleviate this
unacceptable latency?

I am tempted to use cthread_fork() to see if I can fool the AppKit
into better performance, but I'd prefer this application to be
Openstep compliant.

Thanks for any help!

Christopher Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
penrose@silvertone.princeton.edu
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From: Timothy Luoma 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Seek equivalent to Windows Alt-Tab
Date: 8 Jul 1997 03:40:17 GMT
Organization: The PEAK ftp site for OpenStep and NEXTSTEP
Lines: 51
Message-ID: <5pscr1$2ck$1@ha2.rdc1.nj.home.com>
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planetary  wrote:
>Emmett McLean  wrote:
>: Is there a NeXT equivalent to Window's Alt-Tab ?
>
>Cmd-[Up arrow|Down arrow]

which isn't exactly the same, because alt-tab actually makes the window 'key'

There is a PS hack floating around to do this.

Oops.... here it is.  Use at your own risk.... I didn't write it but have 
used it under 3.2/3.3/4.1


begin 644 change-key.patch
M(R,@+2TM+2TM+2T@8F5G:6X@=VEN9&]W4&%C:V%G92TS+C,N<&%T8V@@+2TM
M+2TM+2T**BHJ(&]R:6=I;F%L+3,N,R]W:6YD;W=086-K86=E+G!S"5=E9"!$
M96,@,3,@,3&-H("]P;W-T
M0GE#;VYT97AT('=I;F5X96,*("!](%].6$1E9E!R;V,**R`O86-T:79A=&5!
M<'!7:71H5&]P5VEN9&]W('L**R!TPHK(&1U<"!C=7)R96YT=VEN9&]W;&5V96P**R!D
M=7`@+R]M86EN365N=4QE=F5L(&=T(&5X8V@**R`O+V1O8VM,979E;"!L="!O
MPHK
M("]I8V]N(&=E="`Q(&YE('L**R!T"!C=7)R96YT;W=N97(**R`Y(&-O<'D@+W1R86YS
M;6ET179E;G0@=VEN97AE8PHK(#(@.2`Q(')O;&P@+W1R86YS;6ET179E;G0@
M=VEN97AE8PHK('!O<"!P;W`**R!](&EF"BL@+W)E='5R;E=I;F1O=W,@=VEN
M97AE8PHK('T@7TY81&5F4')O8PH@("]?:&%N9&QE0V]M;6%N9"!["B`@;6%R
M:R`Q,"`Q(')O;&P*("`Q(&EN9&5X("TQ-B!B:71S:&EF=`HJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ
M*BHJ*BH**BHJ(#$P.#(L,3`X-R`J*BHJ"BTM+2`Q,3$P+#$Q,3@@+2TM+0H@
M('T@+W)E=D9O&5C"B`@8VQE87)T;VUA&5C"BL@-2!I;F1E>"`O+T%L=&5R;F%T96UAPHK("]A8W1I=F%T94%P<%=I=&A4;W!7:6YD;W<@=VEN97AE8PHK
M('T@:68*("!]>PH@(&1U<"`Q-S4@97$@>PH@('1R=64@,"`O9V5T5VEN9&]W
M&5C"BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*BHJ*@HJ*BH@,3`Y.2PQ,3`T("HJ*BH*
M+2TM(#$Q,S`L,3$S."`M+2TM"B`@?2!F;W)A;&P*("!C;&5A&5C"BL@?2!I9@H@('U["B`@<&]P"B`@86-T:79E07!P('1R=64@+W!O
M4-O;G1E>'0@=VEN97AE8PHC(R`M+2TM+2TM+2!E;F0@=VEN9&]W4&%C
9:V%G92TS+C,N<&%T8V@@+2TM+2TM+2T*"BTM
`
end


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From: bresink@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Marcel Bresink)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.sysadmin,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to set up Renderman printing?
Date: 8 Jul 1997 07:31:26 GMT
Organization: University Koblenz / Germany
Lines: 19
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William.Clocksin@CL.cam.ac.uk wrote:
> [...] I get a panel asking for a 
> renderer host (which the only choice is localhost), and then error panel 
> complaining that it can't connect to localhost. 

This will happen if your computer has never been connected to a network or 
you kept the NetInfo database in its initial state. The initial local NetInfo 
settings for RenderMan don't work in most configurations.

Start /NextDeveloper/Demos/RenderManager.app and configure the real name of 
your machine (or again localhost if you aren't in a network) as public 
renderer. After that, rendering will hopefully work fine.

Marcel

---
Marcel Bresink,  University of Koblenz,  Institute for Computer Science
Rheinau 1, D-56075 Koblenz, Germany, Fon: +49-261-9119-421 Fax: ...-497
MIME/NeXT Mail accepted   ---   WWW: http://www.uni-koblenz.de/~bresink
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From: Laurent_Daudelin@fanniemae.com (Laurent Daudelin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: (PB) EOF NLS_LANG
Date: 1 Jul 1997 12:46:47 GMT
Organization: Fannie Mae
Lines: 29
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valerie@mizar (Moukdarath Valerie) wrote:
>I work on NeXTstep 3.2 and EOF 1.1 and Oracle 7.1
>
>My oracle NLS_LANG is american_america.we8dec
>
>I don't know what NLS_LANG to use on EOF to read correctely my date
>
>ex : "Boite de crme  t" in my database is not the same when I read it with EOF.
>
>
> may be replace by "Y" or "" it depends on what caracter set i use.
>
>valrie

Valrie,

It has nothing to do with EOF. This problem is caused by the fact that, for extended characters 
(e.g. , , etc.), there is no convention like the one we have for ASCII (characters 0 to 127). So, 
we ends up with different value for extended characters, depending on the platform (OS) you're 
using. So, I guess that your Oracle database server is probably running on an NT server, while 
you're developing your application on NeXTStep. There is not much you can do, however...

-Laurent.

======================================================================
Laurent Daudelin          "Risk-Based Pricing"              Fannie Mae
13150 Worldgate Drive, Herndon, VA. USA
Phone: 703-708-1830              EMail: Laurent_Daudelin@fanniemae.com
Fax:   703-708-1857
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Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net>   <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>   <5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>    <19970705124505517300@dialup76-3-36.swipnet.se>    <199707061639241455966@dialup156-4-13.swipnet.se> <5popa2$sfp$1@darla.visi.com>   <1997070718480867755@dialup103-4-10.swipnet.se> <5pricn$i0l$1@darla.visi.com> <5ps8ff$4ju$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
In-Reply-To: <5ps8ff$4ju$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net>
From: marco@sente.nospam.ch (Marco Scheurer (remove nospam to reply))
X-Url: http://www.sente.ch/
Organization: 
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Date: 8 Jul 97 08:29:45 GMT
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On 07/08/97, Christopher Wolf wrote:
>On 07/07/97, David Young wrote:>I don't work for Apple, so I 
obviously have no 
>idea how they're going to (or 
>>already have) reconcile(d) Java GC bridged to ObjC for OPENSTEP, and 
Java GC 
>>distributed across processes and networks for (P)DO. Recalling the 
discussion 
>>of Apple's changes to the ObjC language in comp.lang.objective-c, 
I'm 
>>actually starting to get a bit worried.
>
>What they said at WWDC... (working from memory)
>
>Conceptually you have two run-times working in parallel - the Obj-C 
runtime and 
>the Java runtime - with a bridge between them.   
>

There was a small article about the integration of Java and 
Objective-C that was done for WebObjects in last month's Object 
Magazine.

-- 
Marco Scheurer (marco@sente.ch)
Sen:te

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Subject: Re: Looking for an expert system shell 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <199707071603.MAA13005@micro.cs.rochester.edu>
In-Reply-To: <199707071603.MAA13005@micro.cs.rochester.edu>
From: marco@sente.nospam.ch (Marco Scheurer (remove nospam to reply))
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On 07/07/97, "Eric K. Ringger" wrote:
>In comp.sys.next.programmer, Marco Scheurer wrote:
>>I'm looking for an expert system shell I could easily use with 
>>NEXTSTEP 3.3. More specifically, I am looking for a forward chaining 
>>inference engine.
>>
>>Any reference to available systems, source code, commercial or not 
>>would be greatly appreciated.
>[...]
>
>CLIPS might meet your requirements.  I suppose you'll need to search
>for the distribution, since I don't have a URL on hand.  I seem to
>recall that one of the NASA labs developed it, but I could be wrong.
>

Yes, thank you. CLIPS can be found at:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/areas/expert/sys
tems/clips/0.html

It was developed by NASA, but is now supported by its original 
developers. The new home page for CLIPS is at 

http://www.ghg.net/clips/CLIPS.html

-- 
Marco Scheurer (marco@sente.ch)
Sen:te

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From: bresink@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Marcel Bresink)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP on 95 is several times slower than on NT!
Date: 8 Jul 1997 07:53:15 GMT
Organization: University Koblenz / Germany
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Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com wrote:
> However, we have discovered a serious problem with OPENSTEP 4.2 on Windows 
> 95: our application runs 4 to 5 times slower than on Windows NT. 

Isn't that a general problem of Windows 95? It's a well-known problem that 
Windows applications which use lots of memory generally run much slower on 95 
that on NT. The cause seems to be an ill implementation of the multi-tasking 
scheduler of 95 which counteracts the CPU's caching strategy, leading to a 
bad memory performance. See http://www.heise.de/ct/english/9611015/ for 
further information.

So it's not NeXT to blame...

Marcel

---
Marcel Bresink,  University of Koblenz,  Institute for Computer Science
Rheinau 1, D-56075 Koblenz, Germany, Fon: +49-261-9119-421 Fax: ...-497
MIME/NeXT Mail accepted   ---   WWW: http://www.uni-koblenz.de/~bresink
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Some initial OpenStep notes
Date: 8 Jul 1997 09:48:33 GMT
Organization: P&L Systems
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On 07/07/97, Maury Markowitz wrote:
>In article , allan@cetus.ali.bc.ca (Allan
>Noordvyk) wrote:
>
>> While font and ruler wells would be visually obvious, I would still
>> want the speed of font/ruler copy & paste. 
>
>  By no means do I suggest removing existing functionality, it's just that
>I find the wells system to be rather easy to use, and visually useful
>because they give you a "preview" of the property inside them.
>
Just in case you haven't found it yet, note that you can make the preview in 
the Font Panel persistent by Shift-clicking the Preview button.

We've also extended the Font Panel's functionality in Mesa so that you can 
drag a Font "swatch" out of the preview well to drop on any cell.

*** If other developers want, I think we can give away the (relatively 
straightforward) code to add this to your app -- any takers please get in 
touch. ***



I do wonder, though, how you'd get a Ruler preview in a well?  Unless you 
have a floating Panel like the current Tabs view...

Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP on 95 is several times slower than on NT!
Date: 8 Jul 1997 12:38:18 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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Message-ID: <5ptcbq$l1n$1@solaris.cc.vt.edu>
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bresink@informatik.uni-koblenz.de (Marcel Bresink) wrote:
> Isn't that a general problem of Windows 95? It's a well-known problem that 
> Windows applications which use lots of memory generally run much slower on 95 
> that on NT. The cause seems to be an ill implementation of the multi-tasking 
> scheduler of 95 which counteracts the CPU's caching strategy, leading to a 
> bad memory performance. See http://www.heise.de/ct/english/9611015/ for 
> further information.
> 
> So it's not NeXT to blame...

I'm not sure about that. No other Win32 app I use has such major performance problems 
going from NT to 95. We're talking a slow down of 4 to 5.

I will check out the site you mentioned.

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP on 95 is several times slower than on NT!
Date: 8 Jul 1997 14:48:18 GMT
Organization: Anderson Financial Systems Inc.
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Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com writes
> However, we have discovered a serious problem with OPENSTEP 4.2 on 
> Windows 95: our application runs 4 to 5 times slower than on Windows NT.

As another data point, the beta release of WriteUp/OPENSTEP runs at about 
the same speed on equivalent hardware running 95 and NT (Compaq Presarios 
with Pentium/90mhz CPUs). I have not seen noticeable degradation on 95, 
even on deployment machines with "only" 32MB.

Is it possible this is a network/TCP problem? At first, I couldn't get 
the app to run at all on a standalone machine, and it turned out to be 
the lack of an IP address. The pasteboard server needs to have TCP/IP 
services running and configured properly, or it hangs/crashes. And if 
DNS is not configured properly on a given machine, you can run into some 
hellacious waits for network activity.
--
Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT
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From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp (Penrose Christopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSThread severely degrades event queue access
Date: 08 Jul 1997 16:18:30 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Kanagawa Japan
Lines: 44
Distribution: world
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: ccs01.sfc.keio.ac.jp



Howdy Folks:

I am developing an application, under Openstep 4.1 for intel,
which is multithreaded.  In my application, I have a single solitary
method that is run in a seperate thread.  It is spawned with:

        [NSThread detachNewThreadSelector:@selector(mySelector:)
                  toTarget:self withObject:sender];

In this method (as referenced by mySelector) there are no AppKit
objects manipulated, nor are any messages passed to any AppKit
objects.

Elsewhere in the application, in a custom view, mouseDown: is
overridden to implement the dragging of another view.

When this view is dragged on the screen before the application becomes
mult-threaded (while [NSThread isMultiThreaded] returns NO) the dragging
is smooth and continuous.  

If I execute mySelector: in the same thread as the application, the dragging
performance is also smooth.

However, as soon as the application becomes multithreaded, e.g.
[NSThread isMultiThreaded] returns YES), the dragging behavior
degrades drastically: the view stutters when dragged.  A huge
(sometimes as humungous as 500ms) latency is introduced.  This latency
remains in the application ever after, even though the detached thread
has exitted.

Why is this happening?  Are there any ways to alleviate this
unacceptable latency?

I am tempted to use cthread_fork() to see if I can fool the AppKit
into better performance, but I'd prefer this application to be
Openstep compliant.

Thanks for any help!

Christopher Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
penrose@silvertone.princeton.edu
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From: penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp (Penrose Christopher)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 08 Jul 1997 16:13:55 GMT
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Kanagawa Japan
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In-reply-to: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com's message of 7 Jul 1997 19:27:34 GMT



mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino):
>However, the fact that a simple question about GC has 
>turned into such a long thread should raise a flag somewhere at Apple.

It should raise a flag yes.  However, I think that you know more about
Openstep garbage collection than anyone at Apple outside of the "Apple
Enterpise Software" division (formerly NeXT software inc.)  You have
had more to time to use it than they have.  The lack of an
xxx.next.com or xxx.apple.com in this thread indicates that no flag
has been raised.  Our problem is trivial, insignificant, and is being
ignored in their ostrich eyes.  This is a very bad sign as this thread
is totally huge (50+ messages).

It is very frustrating as a developer to have been given the promise
of consistency yet only receive a voodoo reality.  I have posted
several times to the net with the hope that someone could answer me
regarding multi-threaded applications (spawned with NSThread) and
NSEvent event queue performance degradations.  My problem is trivial
in their (and your) eyes.  In my eyes, my application is completely
useless until I can find some solution.  NSThread was a promise of
redemption from mach c-threads.  Instead it seems to have become a
colossal waste of time and energy.

I just can't wait to see what happens when we get an Openstep that
Apple has monkey-wrenched.  We are discussing garbage collection as
designed by NeXT software.  Who knows what Apple engineers will do
(to) Next.  They couldn't even modernize their kernel despite having
many working os models to analyze and steal from.

As an audio developer, like Mark, I wait in deep fear that the
SoundKit will be replaced with an AIFF or Quicktime "solution",
forcing me to rewrite huge amounts of code in hideously inelegant
ways.  I'll either be running linux at that point or running screaming
off a builing in Tokyo.  Software companies don't operate by tallying
votes from its users or even developers, software companies decide how
you are going to use and interact with their system for you.

Christopher Penrose
Audio DSP Researcher 		Keio University Shonan Fujisawa, Japan
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Tue,  8 Jul 1997 13:26:48 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
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[ ...damned if you respond, damned if you don't... ]

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 7-Jul-97 Re: [Q]
OpenStep Garbage Co.. by Lars Farm@ite.mh.se 
>> Java's semantics buy you more than that-- the Java GC is guaranteed that
>> it can always free all unused memory because (for example) it cannot be
>> fooled by integer aliases that appear to be valid pointers.  A
>> conservative GC is therefore likely to use more space than a
>> non-conservative GC.
>  
> A copying collector needs a heapsize of at least twice the allocated
> size for copying. A conservative collector can make do with less.

What you say is absolutely true for a situation without virtual memory. 
However, to understate the case, the presence of virtual memory
interacts strongly with garbage collection.

[ ... ]
> As for speed, a copying collector must touch every allocated byte when
> copying, but a conservative collector needs only touch pointers to
> allocated blocks.

You're disregarding VM again.  Clever systems can take advantage of
changing the page tables to copy and/or remap memory on a page-by-page
basis very quickly compared to actually copying every byte.

[ ... ]
> Saying GC is ok, but not if it is conservative GC simply doesn't make
> sense to me and I think that is what you're saying.

Well, it's not.

>> The problem comes in that unless you explicitly NULL old pointers to
>> dynamic structures, they will continue to point to them and the GC will
>> not free that memory.  This means that such structures will stay around
>> either forever if the pointer variable is global or automatic, or will
>> stay around until after the call stack has recursed past the frame
>> containing the local pointer variables.
>  
> So don't use global variables;-) This "problem" is the same with any
> kind of GC. It would be the same in Lisp, Smalltalk, Java or Eiffel
> regardless of how the GC was implemented. It is also the same for
> reference counting. What does that have to do with conservative GC
> beeing an inferior kind of GC and therefor not worthy of using?

It has nothing to do with such a claim.

> Does this mean that you're arguing against GC in general, not against
> conservative GC?

No.  I'm not arguing against GC at all, nor am I arguing against
conservative GC.

>> And if you're going to have to explicitly decide to NULL pointers to
>> avoid leaking uncollectable memory, then there is no gain in convenience
>> over something like NeXT's current reference counting scheme where you'd
>> send a -release message.
>  
> ... or say free() in C, delete in C++ or dispose in Pascal. What is your
> point?

I was refuting your claim that implementing a conservative GC for a
C-like language somehow makes the language that much easier to use
because you never have to worry about managing memory anymore.  IMHO, a
conservative GC scheme has about the same level of convenience to use
that a good reference-counting scheme like NeXT's does.

[ ...autorelease... ]

Go look on NeXT's web site for documentation on autorelease.  Since you
didn't know what it is, there's no point in addressing your impression
of what that thought it does.

> Your argument is a variation of one of the standard arguments against
> GC, not against conservative GC in particular: - "If it doesn't solve
> programming problem X as well as reusing unused memory it's no good".

That has not been my argument-- I understand what GC is, and that it can
be very nice under some circumstances.  The problem is that you don't
seem to understand that GC is not a panacea, and that it is not a
solution to all the world's programming ills.

There are tradeoffs involved, but you appear to discount them.  Also,
your analyses (and the ones on the web you cited) claim to apply to the
majority of common cases and thus are generalizable, but the simple fact
that they largely fail to consider the impact of virtual memory, or the
impact of the active working set of pages over a machine running
multiple processes via PMT makes me question the accuracy of the claims
being derived.

A copying collector has the advantage over a mark-sweep collector that
it improves locality by removing empty holes as a result of performing
GC.  NEXTSTEP's memory management system takes an alternate approach via
the concept of memory allocation zones, which can also greatly improve
locality when used correctly.

[ ... ]
> GC is often combined with 'finalization' and finalization can be used to
> release other external resourses. Without pretending to know anything
> about NeXT distributed objects I assume finalization could be used for
> them.

It's possible to implement finalization very easily in Obj-C for any
NSObject classes you desire.

>> Simply assigning pointers around does not change the reference count, so
>> it is perfectly possible to create self-referential structures which
>> will be autoreleased later without any manual memory management.
> 
> Then it isn't reference counting. It doesn't count references. Perhaps
> only "important" references and semi-manual counting or perhaps even
> manual counting?

The reference count involves explicit retain/release combinations, which
are often handled automatically via inherited behavior from various
classes in use.  But yes, there is some level of explicit manual
counting that one encounters, depending on what you're doing.

> Doesn't that expose one to the usual pointer related problems with
> dangling pointers, etc, etc?

Yes.  There are debugging utilities provided with the system and
available as add-ons which allow one to track down dangling pointer
references in an app under development and eliminate them.

The 80-20 rule applies here-- NEXTSTEP's system provides about 80% of
the convenience of full GC at about 20% of the cost.  Trying to do
better means that you run into the aforementioned problems and cost with
full GC.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 8 Jul 1997 20:22:58 GMT
Organization: Egghead Billy, Inc.
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In <5prkc0$i0l$2@darla.visi.com> David Young wrote:
> > For instance, I think that whenever you create an object, whether its by 
> > copy, alloc, or special class methods, and you want to keep it around 
> outside 
> > the scope of the method its created in, then you should have retain it.  
> > Then, its a simple matter of always matching a retain with a release.  
Its 
> > seems simple and consistant -- so there's probably a reason why its not 
> this 
> > way!
> 
> That's not how it is. 

I know!  That's how I think it *should* be though!

> 
> See above. I hope this clears up some of your confusion.
> 
> 

Thanks David, Marcel, Chris, and everyone else who have answered my posts!  I 
will, after this, be quiet.

I understand how it is *now*.  I get it.  But I still think its conceptually 
inconsistent.  It would be consistent if whenever you get an object, whether 
you create it or not, but you get a pointer to it and you want to make sure 
that that object stays around until you are done with it, that you retain it. 
 Then whenever you are through with it, you release it.  Isn't that more 
elegant and simple?  There's nothing to question - I retained it, so I have 
to release it.  I want to keep it for a while, so I must retain it.  That's 
all I'm saying....

Also, and this is very minor :), why don't these "convenience methods" like 
+dictionary or +array also leave the refcount at 1.  Why do they autorelease 
them before returning?  Not as "convenient" as they could be!

What I was looking for was the reason why its not this way now.  For example, 
maybe there's some performance hit by using autorelease.  If every object 
created was added to the autorelease pool, maybe that would be a problem.  I 
don't know this to be the case, I'm just talking out my ass...

And that's it from me.  Thanks for the help!


--
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  Mark Trombino             |  J A M S o f t                             |
|    mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  |  Audio DSP Tools for Openstep & Rhapsody   | 
|-------------------------------------------------------------------------|

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Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 15:40:36 -0600
From: David Stes 
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <868393273.25503@dejanews.com>
Organization: Computer Algebra Netherlands
References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net> <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>  <19970705124505517300@dialup76-3-36.swipnet.se>  <199707061639241455966@dialup156-4-13.swipnet.se> <5popa2$sfp$1@darla.visi.com> <1997070718480867755@dialup103-4-10.swipnet.se>
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In article <1997070718480867755@dialup103-4-10.swipnet.se>,
lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm) wrote:
>
> How come GC is acceptable for OpenStep in Java but GC is not acceptable
> for OpenStep in other languages?

That's a very good question. Your reaction is very much unlike
what, I believe, is common among Apple developers : "Objective-C
has auto-release pools : I hope they convert OpenStep to Java".

It's the _OpenStep_ spec that has auto-release pools ...
(OpenStep encourages you to convert NextStep apps (which don't use
autorelease pools) to use the brand new NeXT Foundation Kit
auto-release pool alternative of the new NSObject class instead of
the +new method of the Object class).

Brad Cox' 86 (!) and 91 books have a discussion, both of mark-and-sweep
gc and refcount (automatic) gc, applied to Objective-C.

In fact the Stepstone Object class has, in addition to the
"isa" field, fields such as "attr" and "objID", which were used
as identifier for double-indirection, for heap compaction,
to fight fragmented memory, or for flags for static allocation etc.

My compiler has a -gc option (using the Boehm package); the following
test results might be of interest.

stes@mix> vi boo.m
"boo.m" 9 lines, 103 characters

#include "Object.h"

void main()
{
int i;
for(i=0;i<10000000;i++) [Object new];
printf("done\n");
}

stes@mix> objc --version
Portable Object Compiler - objc1.4.5 - m68k-next-nextstep3
Copyright (c) 1996,97 by Stes & Lerman. All Rights Reserved.

stes@mix> objc -gc boo.m
stes@mix> /bin/time a.out
done
326.2 real 281.5 user 1.9 sys

During this time I was measuring (with ps -aux) the vm and real memory of
the process; real size was stable at 504 KB, vm size stable at about 1.5
MB.

Then I repeat the test without the -gc flag :

stes@mix> objc boo.m
stes@mix> /bin/time a.out

I was going to save the output of the ps -aux test (which showed something
like 28MB of fastly growing VM), but could not, because of "no space
left on device" at the time I was going to save the results.

I think it's because the swapfile is dynamically growing and was
consuming all space on my disk; I had to reboot my machine.

The same test on my zippy Pentium machine running FreeBSD (BSD 4.4) :

psyche: {1} objc --version
Portable Object Compiler - objc1.4.7 - i686-unknown-freebsd2.1.7
Copyright (c) 1996,97 by Stes & Lerman. All Rights Reserved.

psyche: {5} objc boo.m
psyche: {6} a.out
Out of memory on call to OC_Malloc
psyche: {7} objc -gc boo.m
psyche: {8} /usr/bin/time a.out
done
30.32 real 30.29 user 0.00 sys

I did not have to reboot.

David.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 8 Jul 1997 22:23:30 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
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In article <5pu7j2$egf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> mtrombin@ix.netcom.com  
(Mark Trombino) writes:


> What I was looking for was the reason why its not this way now. 
> For example, maybe there's some performance hit by using autorelease.

Autorelease actually has several performance hits:

1. The object has to be added to the autorelease pool and 
   a release message has to be sent.  
2. Accessing the current autorelease pool means accessing 
   the current thread dictionary, not a fast operation.
3. Increasing the retain count to above 1 (for example 
   when you retain an object that was previously autoreleased)
   is very expensive in the default NSObject implementation,
   the implementation uses an external hash table because there
   are no bits left in the object.  Ugh!
4. Unless you have you manage all your own autorelease pool, you
   have no control over when the object gets released.

So, use alloc/init and explicit release whenever possible, autorlease
only when returning temporary objects from methods/functions.

Marcel

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From: thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Sun Sparc TOO!  (was  Re: Prelude2Rhapsody on black hardware!)
Date: 8 Jul 1997 22:55:38 GMT
Organization: Information Resources and Technology
Lines: 53
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References:  
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Hi.  Actually I just said:

boot cdrom

at that funky BIOS prompt after hitting  and 

awaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I went!

I've been running Prelude on my Sparc 5 for a couple of weeks now.
It was a no-brainer.

I wonder what the hangup was with your Sparc 20.
Did you have a genuine-like Sun CD-ROM player?

Thomas


Frank Wegmann (wegmann@talisker.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de) wrote:
: In article <5p11qf$ar2$2@nuke.csu.net> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu (Thomas Poff) writes:

: > Prelude installed on a friend's Sparc trivially.  No muss no fuss.
: > It was a trivial installation.

: Well, almost.  You cannot boot from the PTR CD (at least on my SS20), so
: you need a bootable NS3.3/OS4.x CD-ROM.  Then change disks at the boot prompt
: and continue.  From that point, installation is a no-brainer.

: Frank
: -- 
: Frank Wegmann              voice: +49 234 700 7677 / +49 234 700 2461
: Sprachwiss. Institut       fax  : +49 234 7094 137
: Ruhr-Universitaet Bochum   email: wegmann@linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de,
: 44780 Bochum                      wegmann@acm.org (NeXTmail, MIME welcome)
: Germany                    WWW  : http://www.linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

--
               <>+<>                 //////      __v__        __\/__
   `\|||/      /---\     """""""    | _ - |     (_____)   .  / ^  _ \  .
    (q p)     | o o |   <^-@-@-^>  (| o O |)   .( O O ),  |\| (o)(o) |/|
_ooO_<_>_Ooo_ooO_U_Ooo_ooO__v__Ooo_ooO_u_Ooo_ooO__(_)__Ooa__oOO_()_OOo___
[_____}_____!____.}_____{_____|_____}_____i____.}_____!_____{_____}_____]
__.}____.|_____{_____!____.}_____|_____{.____}_____|_____}_____|_____!___
[_____{_____}_____|_____}_____i_____}_____|_____}_____i_____{_____}_____]
Thomas Poff
1308 Michele Ct.
Rohnert Park, CA  94928
(707)664-1867

To see some interesting software for the Newton, please try:

http://www.cs.sonoma.edu/Newton
ftp://ftp.cs.sonoma.edu/pub/Newton

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From: rmessner@tolkien.BLaCKSMITH.com (Rick Messner)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Lex/Yacc in 4.1 PB
Date: 8 Jul 1997 22:46:30 GMT
Organization: BLaCKSMITH, Inc.
Lines: 6
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NNTP-Posting-Host: 204.242.144.72

I have lex and yacc files I cannot get to compile in 4.1 PB.  It seems as  
if the extension is not being recognized, but yet it is listed in the  
basicrules.make file.  I have tried .lm, .lm.m, and .l.c and corresponding  
yacc extensions to no avail.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,

Rick Messner, BLaCKSMITH, Inc., rick_messner@blacksmith.com
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From: dwy@ace.net (David Young)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 8 Jul 1997 23:12:43 GMT
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Cc: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com

In <5pu7j2$egf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> Mark Trombino wrote:
> I understand how it is *now*.  I get it.  But I still think its 
conceptually 
> inconsistent.  It would be consistent if whenever you get an object, 
whether 
> you create it or not, but you get a pointer to it and you want to make sure 
> that that object stays around until you are done with it, that you retain 
it. 
>  Then whenever you are through with it, you release it.  Isn't that more 
> elegant and simple?  There's nothing to question - I retained it, so I have 
> to release it.  I want to keep it for a while, so I must retain it.  That's 
> all I'm saying....

In order for this to happen, objects would have to begin their lifetime with 
a retainCount of zero. This doesn't really make any sense as unreferenced 
objects are freed! Also, if you ever _did_ add on mark-sweep GC over the 
retainCount system (there's a package that does this for GNUstep) (not that 
I'm suggesting this), this would be very confusing.

> Also, and this is very minor :), why don't these "convenience methods" like 
> +dictionary or +array also leave the refcount at 1.  Why do they 
autorelease 
> them before returning?  Not as "convenient" as they could be!

They _do_ leave the retainCount at one. They _also_ place the object in the 
current autorelease pool. They retainCount _stays_ at one until the current 
pool is freed. The "convenience" implied is that you don't have to type 
alloc/init and release. They're intended for temporary calculation and 
processing, and for the most part, once you're done with them, you can forget 
about them.

> What I was looking for was the reason why its not this way now.  For 
example, 
> maybe there's some performance hit by using autorelease.  If every object 
> created was added to the autorelease pool, maybe that would be a problem.  
I 
> don't know this to be the case, I'm just talking out my ass...

There is a performance hit. There's the addition of the object to the pool, 
processing involved in the pool, etc. Also, autorelease+retain is slower than 
just alloc/init.

--
:: d a v i d   y o u n g ::::: smtp dwy@ace.net http www.ace.net ::
:: independant software and network guy ::::: new york, new york :: 
:: PGP fingerprint :: 89F5 E75D 4749 3FF4 :: ED92 1B6D 9871 9B93 :: 

####################################################################
Message-ID: <33C2FCE7.942F47D8@neteffects.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 1997 19:52:23 -0700
From: "Jack G. Bader" 
Organization: NetEffects Inc.
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Subject: **** Need Objective-C/OpenStep Programmer in Minneapolis ****
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NetEffects has an immediate opening for a consultant with one of our
Fortune500 clients in Minneapolis.

You will join a small team of NeXtStep/OpenStep developers who are
enhancing large customer service applications.

If you have 1+ years of Objective-C background you are a candidate for
this long-term position.

Please email your resume and availablility as soon as possible.  Thanks
in advance.

Jack Bader
jbader@neteffects.com


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From: scott@doubleu.com (Scott Hess)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 9 Jul 1997 02:00:31 GMT
Organization: Is a sign of weakness
Lines: 59
Message-ID: 
References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net>
	<5ph9gd$ <19970705124505517300@dialup76-3-36.swipnet.se>
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	<5prkc0$i0l$2@darla.visi.com> <5pu7j2$egf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: doubleu.com
In-reply-to: mtrombin@ix.netcom.com's message of 8 Jul 1997 20:22:58 GMT

In article <5pu7j2$egf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>,
	mtrombin@ix.netcom.com (Mark Trombino) writes:
   I understand how it is *now*.  I get it.  But I still think its
   conceptually inconsistent.  It would be consistent if whenever you
   get an object, whether you create it or not, but you get a pointer
   to it and you want to make sure that that object stays around until
   you are done with it, that you retain it.  Then whenever you are
   through with it, you release it.  Isn't that more elegant and
   simple?  There's nothing to question - I retained it, so I have to
   release it.  I want to keep it for a while, so I must retain it.
   That's all I'm saying....

There are two reasons that come immediately to mind.  One is that then
you'd _always_ do -retain on +alloc'ed objects, making the -retain
redundant.  The other is that this would significantly change how
+alloc works, meaning it'd need to change to a different method name,
leaving an +alloc which didn't need the retain for compatibility
reasons...

Actually, I just thought of another reason.  There _must_ be an
implicit -retain for +alloc - otherwise, how does the object manage to
exist with a retainCount of 0?

   Also, and this is very minor :), why don't these "convenience
   methods" like +dictionary or +array also leave the refcount at 1.
   Why do they autorelease them before returning?  Not as "convenient"
   as they could be!

They do leave the refCount at 1 :-).

The real reason is that generally it's expected that you aren't going
to hold onto the returned object.  For instance, you might ask some
other object for a dictionary, which you in turn ask for a particular
value by key, which you in turn pass to some other method.

The real base of the problem is a misunderstanding of what the scope
of an object that some method returned to you.  In the best world, the
object's scope should be through the end of the calling method, and
specifically until the stack is unwound and the autorelease pool is
released.  But sometimes you can get an object which is a direct
reference to some other objects storage area.  For instance, if an
object is storing data "foo" in a string, and you ask for the "foo"
data, it might just return the "foo" instance variable directly.  If
you then send a message to the object which causes the "foo" instance
variable to be changed, then you have a dangling reference to a
potentially deallocated object.

In this particular case, if the method returning "foo" instead of
doing "return foo" had done something like "return [[foo retain]
autorelease]", or perhaps -copy/-autorelease, then you wouldn't have a
problem.  Likewise if the code that changed foo used -autorelease
instead of -release.

There are other more involved problems, but most of them are similar,

--
scott hess  (606) 578-0412 http://www.doubleu.com/

####################################################################
From: Damn Yankee
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: Yankee Inc.
Subject: !!!Hello!!!
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Are you looking for a great place to find interesting things on the WWW??? Than look no more because you have found the right place!!! The place you are looking for is Yankee Inc.!!! A great Web Site full of interesting links to interesting places!!! Everything from Adult to Xzlyaphone it's here!!! There is something for everyone and then some!!!  So give it a try what do you have to lose except some sleep??? Yankee Inc. http://www.kalnet.net/yank714

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If you would like to be removed from my mailing list - hit reply and type "REMOVE" and I will promptly remove you from my list!!! Thank You!!!

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From: cjs@occs.cs.oberlin.edu (Miles Standish)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Academic vs Developer: cheaper?
Date: 9 Jul 1997 03:55:55 GMT
Organization: Oberlin College
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The adacemic bundle is only $319 but becoming an apple developer is only
$250.  Any idea which is a better deal?  Will I get them same (or
bettter) sutff as a develper as I get on the academic CD?  And when is
Rhapsody coming out?  (It is July right?)

Thanks in advance!


####################################################################
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From: "Aaron Smith" 
Subject: AL'S SOFTWARE LOOKING FOR MEMBERS
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***If you are a programmer/artist/composer this is an opportunity you don't
want to miss!***

AL's SoftWare "Programming Group" (which currently has
over 150 members) is now looking for new members!  Go to
http://www.gos.net/alsoft/ProgGroup/ and read all about it!  If you think
this is a "JUNK ADVERTISEMENT", let me tell you that the membership is
free,
and you will get a chance to make money.  This is a real job, not a chain
letter or any other "get rich scheme".  As a member you will get free
webspace, free advertising for your products, all the help/files you need
and much more - all you pay is a super-tiny percentage (tax) of the money
you make (after you make it).

-- 
--
AL's Software

=+= AARON SMITH =+=
=+= Head Recruiter =+=

SEND MAIL TO: 
Alex Libman
president 


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Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 03:42:35 -0600
From: David Stes 
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Message-ID: <868437336.29789@dejanews.com>
Organization: Computer Algebra Netherlands
References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net> <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>  <19970705124505517300@dialup76-3-36.swipnet.se>  <199707061639241455966@dialup156-4-13.swipnet.se> <5popa2$sfp$1@darla.visi.com> <1997070718480867755@dialup103-4-10.swipnet.se> <868393273.25503@dejanews.com>
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Lines: 39

In article <868393273.25503@dejanews.com>,
David Stes  wrote:
>
> ... some facts supporting Lars' claims ...
>

About the program that I posted yesterday,

psyche: {1} less boo.m

#include 

void main()
{
int i;
for(i=0;i<10000000;i++) [Object new];
printf("done\n");
}

I just realized that I missed a fine opportunity to demo the
interesting -inlinecache option.

psyche: {1} setenv OBJCOPT "-q -gc -inlinecache"
psyche: {2} objc boo.m
psyche: {3} /usr/bin/time a.out
done
8.75 real 8.75 user 0.00 sys

On the same Pentium Pro machine running FreeBSD, as yesterday.

What would be most instructive, is to make a timing table of this
simple test, using different memory management strategies. It's not
just "faster" that is "better", I think you also have to take simplicity
of the source code into account (maybe measured by source bulk : 'wc' ?)

DAvid.

-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
      http://www.dejanews.com/     Search, Read, Post to Usenet
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From: Kris Jacobs
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: Jake's Home Brew
Subject: Try Me!
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 I am looking forward to hearing from you soon!!!

Kris Jacobs
Jake's Home (brew) Page
http://www.net-link.net/~jtsnake/
E-Mail To:
jtsnake@net-link.net
jtsnake@serv01.net-link.net
mpinc@SERV01.NET-LINK.NET

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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to scroll from keyboard
Date: 9 Jul 1997 05:15:27 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5pv6pf$f0a@saturn.genoa.com>
References: <5pppd1$hhr@slip.net>
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Cc: emclean@slip.net

In <5pppd1$hhr@slip.net> Emmett McLean wrote:
> Is there a way to scroll to the bottom
> of a terminal session without draging

If you are using Mach, consider getting the shareware app Stuart
to replace Terminal. Its much nicer in several respects.

One of its strengths is that you can do many things from the keyboard,
without using the mouse. scroll up is alt-up arrow. page up is shift-alt up 
arrow.
goto top is control-alt up arrow (down is similar). 
You can also cycle through windows and icons with the keyboard.

These sound small, but they eliminate many interuptions to reach for the mouse,
and thus save time.
--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Lex/Yacc in 4.1 PB
Date: 9 Jul 1997 05:23:50 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <5pv796$f0a@saturn.genoa.com>
References: <5pug06$iml$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com>
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In <5pug06$iml$1@anvil.BLaCKSMITH.com> Rick Messner wrote:
> I have lex and yacc files I cannot get to compile in 4.1 PB.  It seems as  
> if the extension is not being recognized, but yet it is listed in the  
> basicrules.make file.  I have tried .lm, .lm.m, and .l.c and corresponding  
> yacc extensions to no avail.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,

Rick,

  I'm not sure about Project Builder, but the standard Unix extensions for
lex (or flex) files is .l, and the extension for yacc (or bison) files is .y.
Hope this helps.

Alex

--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Some initial OpenStep notes
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 10:41:25 -0400
Organization: SoftArc Inc.
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In article <5pt2dh$pru$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
 wrote:

> Just in case you haven't found it yet, note that you can make the preview in 
> the Font Panel persistent by Shift-clicking the Preview button.

  How is this used?

> We've also extended the Font Panel's functionality in Mesa so that you can 
> drag a Font "swatch" out of the preview well to drop on any cell.

  This is my point, all apps should allow this.

> I do wonder, though, how you'd get a Ruler preview in a well?  Unless you 
> have a floating Panel like the current Tabs view...

  I've been thinking about this.  What you do is use a swatch of "greek"ed
text and changing ruler settings make the picture change.  Then you just
pick up the greeked text and drop it on a paragraph. This preserves the
idea of using the well as a preview area.

Maury
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From: Chuck_Esterbrook@orcacomputer.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OPENSTEP on 95 is several times slower than on NT!
Date: 9 Jul 1997 16:49:44 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech, Blacksburg, Virginia
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Greg_Anderson@afs.com (Gregory H. Anderson) wrote:
> 
> Is it possible this is a network/TCP problem? At first, I couldn't get 
> the app to run at all on a standalone machine, and it turned out to be 
> the lack of an IP address. The pasteboard server needs to have TCP/IP 
> services running and configured properly, or it hangs/crashes. And if 
> DNS is not configured properly on a given machine, you can run into some 
> hellacious waits for network activity.
> --
> Gregory H. Anderson        | "We're in the land of the blind, 
> Visionary Ophthalmologist  |  selling working eyeballs, and they
> Anderson Financial Systems |  balk at the choice of color." -- Tony
> greg@afs.com (NeXTmail OK) |  Lovell, on Mac user reactions to NeXT

I think I would have noticed this in other apps such as Explorer (Network 
Neighborhood), Netscape and FTP. That's not the problem, but thanks for the 
attempt.

I'm guessing that there is some part of OPENSTEP that we are using that 
suffers performance problems on 95. We just can't tell what it is since 
Sampler doesn't work.

-- 
Chuck Esterbrook, Software Eng.    http://www.orcacomputer.com/~chuck
---------------------------------------------------------------------
chuck_esterbrook@orcacomputer.com / vo 540 231-3475 / fx 540 231-3480
Orca Computer, Inc. / 1800 Kraft Dr. Suite 111 / Blacksburg, VA 24060
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From: penrose@w09.sfc.keio.ac.jp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: CONTEST! solve the NSThread event queue performance bug and win!
Date: 10 Jul 1997 02:07:57 +0900
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Fujisawa Japan
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100 Yen goes to the first cogent reply to my earlier inquiries regarding
the use of NSThread and NSEvent queue performance degradation.

Update: I have checked the event queue to compare its contents during
both cases: normal performance (pre-spawning of thread) and degraded
performance (thread spawned AND exited).  The event queue has a
comparable list of mouseDown and mouseUp (1 of each) events during the
modal loop, and a comparable number of dragging events for comparable
drags.  No other NSEvent types are in the queue.  I haven't been able
to trap where the delay occurs yet.  It definitely doesn't seem to be
my code.

Looking at my thread-list in gdb before and after some interesting things
can be seen.

Before I spawn my thread there is only one thread present in the application
(plus gdb's thread):

There are 2 threads.
Thread State Suspend Port       PC         Name            Function
0      S     0       0x1501     0x504ffec  main            _msg_receive_trap   
1      S     0       0x1701     0x1201afc4 gdb dynamic lib debugging thread    


During the thread execution we have 4 threads, including the mysterious
newcomer, Run Loop Worker:

There are 5 threads.
Thread State Suspend Port       PC         Name            Function
0      S     0       0x1501     0x504ffec  main            _msg_receive_trap   
1      S     0       0x1701     0x1201afc4 gdb dynamic lib debugging thread    
2      S     0       0x1b01     0x504ffec  Run Loop Worker _msg_receive_trap   
3      S     0       0x1c01     0x7108     Foundation-created thread
					   -[MixDocument playMixThread:]
4      S     0       0x1d01     0x504ffec  _t4             _msg_receive_trap   


And after my thread exits all four threads are still present:

There are 5 threads.
Thread State Suspend Port       PC         Name            Function
0      S     0       0x1501     0x504ffec  main            _msg_receive_trap   
1      S     0       0x1701     0x1201afc4 gdb dynamic lib debugging thread    
2      S     0       0x1b01     0x504ffec  Run Loop Worker _msg_receive_trap   
3      S     0       0x1c01     0x504ffec  _t3             _msg_receive_trap   
4      S     0       0x1d01     0x504ffec  _t4             _msg_receive_trap   


First of all, Run Loop Worker suggests that the AppKit is the cause
of my problems.  It suggests that certain AppKit functions are being
handled in this thread in a sort of middle stage toward a thread-safe
AppKit release.  It would be really really nice if someone from Apple
could comment on this.  Demystify it just a tad, please?  If you do,
you'll be the winner of 100 yen.  It would be nice if developers had
access to the information that describes, in detail, what exactly
happens when your application becomes multi-threaded with NSThread.
Your silence is deafening.

I have used mach threads just fine in other applications, but they are
cumbersome, inelegant, and the biggest bummer, they are not Openstep
compliant.  I have thought also about implementing this with
distributed objects, but I keep thinking to myself that threads should be
easier than that.  I should be able to run something in a seperate thread,
and when the thread exits, I should be able to drag an object on the screen
with full system performance.  Right now, Openstep doesn't work that way.
I am leaning towards mach-threads, but I must remind you in the community
who actually managed to read this far, mach-threads are scorned all throughout
the Openstep documentation.

Christopher Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
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From: lars.farm@ite.mh.se (Lars Farm)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 23:38:41 +0200
Organization: pv
Lines: 32
Message-ID: <199707092338411585593@dialup96-5-11.swipnet.se>
References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net> <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>  
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Charles William Swiger  wrote:

> > Your argument is a variation of one of the standard arguments against
> > GC, not against conservative GC in particular: - "If it doesn't solve
> > programming problem X as well as reusing unused memory it's no good".
> 
> That has not been my argument-- I understand what GC is, and that it can
> be very nice under some circumstances.  The problem is that you don't
> seem to understand that GC is not a panacea, and that it is not a
> solution to all the world's programming ills.

Interesting quoting technique and similarly interesting deduction. I
said "useful tool, but no silver bullet". From that you deduce that
"useful tool, but no panacea" is beyond my grasp... Hmmm... Please
reread the rest of the quoted paragraph (snipped by you) and the next
paragraph (snipped by you). Compare to what you said above. 

> Also,
> your analyses (and the ones on the web you cited) claim to apply to the
> majority of common cases and thus are generalizable, but the simple fact
> that they largely fail to consider the impact of virtual memory, or the
> impact of the active working set of pages over a machine running
> multiple processes via PMT makes me question the accuracy of the claims
> being derived.

Well if you actually read it and then disregard the experiences of
experts in the field like Hans Boehm, Paul Wilsson, ..., and the others
as easily as that, then your line of argument suddenly makes sense.


-- 
Lars Farm; lars.farm@ite.mh.se  -  Limt/Channelmatic: lars.farm@limt.se
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 9 Jul 1997 15:16:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
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I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
AIMED-TALK 

(AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)

to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.

If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
the press will at least mention this...

Talk about ammo for more FUD...

We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.



++++++++++++++
HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO AIMED-TALK?
-------------------------------------

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     Send E-mail to:

           

     with a blank subject line and the following command as the
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Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 18:30:49 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
> AIMED-TALK 
> 
> (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)
> 
> to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
> need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
> Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.
> 
> If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
> the press will at least mention this...
> 
> Talk about ammo for more FUD...
> 
> We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
> this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
> stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.
> 
> 

What happened? Lawson writing something supportive of Apple? That's bigger
news than Amelio's resignation. Maybe we can get AP and Reuters to carry
that news to put a positive spin on things.

-- 
Regards,

Joe Ragosta
joe.ragosta@dol.net
Visit the Complete Macintosh Web Site
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
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Sender: Jonathan Hendry 
From: jon@txenxe.com
Subject: Re: Academic vs Developer: cheaper?
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
References: <5pv24b$k18@news.cc.oberlin.edu>
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Miles Standish  wrote:
>The adacemic bundle is only $319 but becoming an apple developer is only
>$250.  Any idea which is a better deal?  Will I get them same (or
>bettter) sutff as a develper as I get on the academic CD?  And when is
>Rhapsody coming out?  (It is July right?)

A) You cannot develop commercial applications with academic OpenStep
   liceneses. In other words, you can't sell what you write, even if
   it's just shareware

B) OPENSTEP is probably a dead-end product, to be replaced with Rhapsody.
   (This is my impression, at least.)

The developer program is a much better deal, IMHO, if you're willing
to wait for Rhapdsody.





-- 
"I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because
 I hate plants."
		- A. Whitney Brown
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From: ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 15:31:36 -0700
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
> AIMED-TALK 
> 
> (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)
> 
> to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
> need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
> Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.
> 
> If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
> the press will at least mention this...
> 
> Talk about ammo for more FUD...
> 
> We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
> this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
> stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.
> 
Come on, Lawson, we all know Amelio got canned because he axed QDGX...  



;@>
####################################################################
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From: Michael Giddings 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: PB CVS Adaptor questions
Date: 9 Jul 1997 22:20:34 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison
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I'm having difficulty setting up PB for CVS.  I seem to be most of the way 
there, but the following tidbit from the very brief documentation in 
Librarian and NextAnswers has me confounded:

"With the CVS Adaptor, you must have the CVSROOT environment variable set for 
Project Builder to inherit."

Since ProjectBuilder is typically launched via the Workspace, I can't figure 
out how to do this.  I suppose I could set this environment variable in a 
shell then always launch PB via the Terminal, but that seems kludgey.  Is 
there some other way to inherit environment variables from the Workspace?

Also, I'm wondering how this setup will deal with .nib, .tiff, and other 
non-text files?  I downloaded CVS 1.9 from the archives (thanks Tom Hageman 
for putting these together).  Previously I had used a version of CVS that had 
been modified to deal with such files by uuencoding/decoding them, but that 
was based on 1.3.

Any info appreciated

--
Michael Giddings
nospam: please change "_at_" to "@" to reply, thanks
giddings_at_whitewater.chem.wisc.edu 
giddings_at_barbarian.com
(608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851
http://smithlab.chem.wisc.edu/PersonalPages/giddings/giddings.html
http://www.barbarian.com

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Sender: Jonathan Hendry 
From: jon@txenxe.com
Subject: Re: Some initial OpenStep notes
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
References:   <5pj9cf$nc$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>  <5plifk$o83$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>    <5pt2dh$pru$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk> 
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Maury Markowitz  wrote:
>In article <5pt2dh$pru$1@ironhorse.plsys.co.uk>, mmalcolm crawford
> wrote:

>> I do wonder, though, how you'd get a Ruler preview in a well?  Unless you 
>> have a floating Panel like the current Tabs view...

>  I've been thinking about this.  What you do is use a swatch of "greek"ed
>text and changing ruler settings make the picture change.  Then you just
>pick up the greeked text and drop it on a paragraph. This preserves the
>idea of using the well as a preview area.

Let the user name them, and display a ruler in the well with the name
on it. Use a default name, perhaps a letter. The user could give them
a new name, like 'headline', or 'quoted text'.

Actually, this opens up the possibility of storing them on disk, and
having a palette of persistent rulers. People could create sets of
rulers for their company documents and keep them in /LocalApps.

-- 
"I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because
 I hate plants."
		- A. Whitney Brown
####################################################################
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From: gary-nospam-@screaming.org (Gary W. Longsine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 9 Jul 1997 23:20:57 GMT
Organization: Save the Skeet Foundation
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In  it appeared that "Lawson English" wrote:
> I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
> AIMED-TALK 
> 
> (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)
> 
> to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
> need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
> Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.
>

> If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
> the press will at least mention this...
> 
> We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
> this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
> stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.

> HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO AIMED-TALK?
>      Send E-mail to:
>            
>      with a blank subject line and the following command as the
>      first (and only) line of the message body:
>           SUBSCRIBE

Lawson, I could kiss you... or did you go away and leave yourself logged in 
again?

; )

I personally believe this is the best news since Dec. 21, 1996.

/gary
--
Gary W. Longsine, Systems Engineer | ____/| OpenStep  MachOS
PLATINUM technology, inc.          | \ o.O|   Objective-C
l_o_n_gsine@platinum.com (NeXTmail |  =(_)=     the Dock
(Can i have his spam?)   & MIME)   |.   U   Elegance is Relevant.

####################################################################
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From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 1997 16:08:30 -0800
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In article ,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:

> In article , "Lawson English"
>  wrote:
> 
> > I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
> > AIMED-TALK 
> > 
> > (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)
> > 
> > to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
> > need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
> > Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.
> > 
> > If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
> > the press will at least mention this...
> > 
> > Talk about ammo for more FUD...
> > 
> > We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
> > this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
> > stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.
> > 
> Come on, Lawson, we all know Amelio got canned because he axed QDGX...  
> 
> 
> 
> ;@>

ROTFL!

So cruel. };-> 


Mark

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line seperating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--bit right through every human heart--and all human hearts."

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"

---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: Damn Yankee
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: Yankee Inc.
Subject: I Am Very Sorry!!!
NNTP-Posting-Host: 205.139.183.55
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Date: 8 Jul 97 15:15:09 GMT
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I would like to apologise to this newsgroup and everyone who reads this newsgroup!!! I promise never to post or send spam to this or any other newsgroup that does not pertain to my posting!!! Please accept my humble apology and again I will never post spam here again!!! Thank You!!!

Andrew Schero
yank714@kalnet.net

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 9 Jul 1997 21:33:00 -0700
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Joe Ragosta  said:

> 
> 
> What happened? Lawson writing something supportive of Apple? That's
> bigger
> news than Amelio's resignation. Maybe we can get AP and Reuters to carry
> that news to put a positive spin on things.

When was the last time that I said "Apple Bad." 

I have had *SERIOUS* problems with Gil Amelio, the direction that he took
Apple when he acquired NeXT, the lack of Apple Marketing, etc.

But when did I ever say something bad about Apple?



-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 9 Jul 1997 21:54:01 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
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Craig Koller  said:

> 
> Come on, Lawson, we all know Amelio got canned because he axed QDGX... 

Yes and no. Amelio got canned because he didn't improve Apple's bottom line
and (I suspect) because Q3 results are going to be much worse than the
concensus suggested: $120 million+ losses, I pontificate, maybe more.

As to how this relates to GX?

GX is a MacOS technology that puts everything else in its category (save
possibly Taligent Graphics) to shame. Amelio's decision to not only go with
the inferior Display PostScript in Rhapsody but to ALSO cripple MacOS
graphics by killing GX's ability to print, is as good an example of the
lack of consumer advocacy that has plagued Amelio's (and now, Steve Jobs',
I fear) Apple as you can find.

GX enables small developers to compete with large developers in the 2D
graphics arena. 

OpenDOc does that in a more comprehensive way.

Amelio's decision to embrace the enterprise market over Apple's traditional
home/SOHO/educational markets by stagnating these
home/SOHO/education-oriented technologies is EXACTLY why Apple is in the
position that it is in: Amelio abandoned the customers that made Apple
great and they, in turn, abandoned Apple.

He did nothing to inspire the customers, the engineers, the developers or
the stockholders.

I mean, what can you say about Rhapsody? It is an NT-class OS that has some
really nifty development tools which won't be available to the end-user for
at least 6 months to a year.

What can you say about GX?

It is a PageMaker/FreeHand-level graphics engine that allows MacOS
developers (including HyperCard programmers) to develop cool graphics
solutions for MacOS, including transparently easy printing of ALL of GX
transparency options, even to PS printers that is available NOW.

Given equal marketing dollars, which would sell more MacOS computers and
make more money for Apple?


As I said, GX is a perfect example of Gil Amelio's Way of Doing Things.

It is VERY distressing to hear that Steve Jobs' role is "expanded."


-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: penrose@w09.sfc.keio.ac.jp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: A WINNER!  NSThread event queue performance woes
Date: 10 Jul 1997 14:43:18 +0900
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Fujisawa Japan
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Alex Blakemore is the official winner of 100 yen for helping
solve the NSThread performance riddle.  He asked that the yen
be donated to a worthy charity.

Alex quoted the NeXTstep 3.3 release notes, mentioning that the
objective-c run-time system is made thread-safe by invoking
objc_setMultithreaded(BOOL value).  The release notes indicate
that this safety mechanism incurs a performance penalty for any
objective-c message, increasing the overhead by a factor of 3, as
a lock must be acquired each time a message is sent.

My Openstep 4.1 didn't have these release notes or any mention of
objc_setMultithreaded(BOOL value). 

I have thus solved my performance problems by using cthreads and disabling
the runtime thread protection when the spawned thread exits.

Unfortunately, NSThread has no mechanism for disabling the
thread-safety features in the objective-c runtime once an application
has "become multi-threaded".  There is no equivalent to:
objc_setMultithreaded(BOOL value).  For NSThread to consider an
application as irrevocably multi-threaded is a design flaw in my
estimation, particularly when AppKit performance is so severely
degraded by unnecessary thread protection.

Using cthreads and objc_setMultithreaded(NO) I can disable thread
safety features once my thread has exited.  I have tested this, and it
completely eliminates the performance problems I talked about. The
performance problems persist only while the thread is actually
executing, which is completely reasonable, and these performance
problems are about 80%-90% of what I experienced with NSThread,
suggesting that NSThread has some other overhead as well.

If anyone at Apple cares to comment, it would be great.  I suggest
implementing a method in NSThread such as

setMultiThreaded:(BOOL) aValue

such that multi-threaded applications are not crippled for life once
they use a thread.  There may be reasons that this feature is not
present in Openstep, such as the nature of thread implementations on
other platforms.  At the very least, Apple could add this as a simple
Openstep extension.  It was very easy to implement myself with
cthreads.

Christopher Penrose
Audio DSP Researcher
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp

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From: arti@address.in.signature (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Lex/Yacc in 4.1 PB
Date: 10 Jul 1997 08:44:11 GMT
Organization: LavaNet, Inc.
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
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rmessner@tolkien.BLaCKSMITH.com (Rick Messner) wrote:
> I have lex and yacc files I cannot get to compile in 4.1 PB.  It seems as  
> if the extension is not being recognized, but yet it is listed in the  
> basicrules.make file.  I have tried .lm, .lm.m, and .l.c and corresponding  
> yacc extensions to no avail.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,

    The lex/yacc implicit rules in implicitrules.make are incomplete is OS 
4.1.  They seem to be fixed in OS 4.2.  I added the following to 
$(LOCAL_MAKEFILEDIR)/common.make.postamble:

.SUFFIXES: .ym .lm .h .m

# When both LEX and YACC will be executed and the LEX source imports a header
# file produced by YACC, add a dependencies to Makefile.postamble that force
# YACC to execute before LEX:
# lexer.m: parser.h
# parser.h: parser.m

# If .ym.h is also a target, the rule fires twice.
.ym.m:
	$(CD) $(SFILE_DIR) && $(YACC) $(ALL_YFLAGS) $(shell pwd)/$<
	$(MV) $(SFILE_DIR)/y.tab.h $(SFILE_DIR)/$*.h
	$(MV) $(SFILE_DIR)/y.tab.c $(SFILE_DIR)/$*.m

.lm.m:
	$(CD) $(SFILE_DIR) && $(LEX) $(ALL_LFLAGS) $(shell pwd)/$<
	$(MV) $(SFILE_DIR)/lex.yy.c $(SFILE_DIR)/$*.m

    Also, the 4.1 common.make includes a couple of DOS end-of-line characters 
(extra Carriage Return characters) that prevent LOCAL_MAKEFILEDIR from being 
defined :-(  Open common.make in your favorite binary editor (emacs is a 
great choice) and remove these extraneous Carriage Returns (printed as ^M) to 
make things work properly.
-- 
Art Isbell                       NeXT/MIME Mail: arti at lava dot net
Trego Systems (for whom I don't speak)     Voice/Fax: +1 808 394 0511
OPENSTEP/NT                               Voice Mail: +1 808 394 0495
   managed care solutions            US Mail: Honolulu, HI 96825-2638
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Organization: USENET spam abatement
Sender: Damn Yankee
Date: 10 Jul 97 07:44:58 GMT
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I have cancelled this article which had a BI of more than 20.
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I have cancelled this article which had a BI of more than 20.
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From: izidor.jerebic@select-tech.si
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Openstep examples OO design (was Re: Some initial OpenStep notes)
Date: 10 Jul 1997 08:36:30 GMT
Organization: SELECT Technology
Lines: 27
Message-ID: <5q26ue$ndb$1@lazar.select-tech.si>
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In article <5pmd4m$i21$2@news.xmission.com> don@globalobjects.com (Don  
Yacktman) writes:
> 
> Yes, it has a lot of neat stuff, but there is one very important thing  
it 
> does very BADLY.  It has a terrible OO design, IMHO.  As someone who  
once 
> made *extensive* modifications to build a whole new app, I will say that  
by 
> the time I was done, I had redesigned practically everything.  The  
design in 
> Draw is far too cumbersome to extend easily, so I ended up replacing one 

If you compare Draw in Nextstep 3.x and Draw in 4.x you can see that the  
Draw in 4.x is completely new code and very improved. Actually, it  
conforms to ModelViewController OO design. The original Draw was one big  
hack, really. But the new one is rather good, as are all other new (4.x)  
examples, IMHO.

I must confess I did not do any modification of the example code. I just  
briefly went through the code of examples and it looked OK to me (old  
examples were just plain hacks). I even recommended them to people as nice  
little examples of coding AND design. I'm really interested what are the  
big deficiencies you found in new examples, e.g. Draw? Are there any  
practices advised in there that we should definitely not follow?

izidor
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From: drifterusa@macconnect.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 02:37:52 -0500
Organization: None
Lines: 8
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Gary W. Longsine wrote:

> I personally believe this [Amelio and Hancock's departure] is the best
> news since Dec. 21, 1996.

Could you explain why?

John Bauer
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From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:08:01 -0400
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In article ,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:

> Come on, Lawson, we all know Amelio got canned because he axed QDGX...  

   And I thought it was because Markkula owns a big piece of BBDO.

-- 
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.

Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
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From: mmalcolm crawford 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 10 Jul 1997 13:09:29 GMT
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On 07/10/97, "Lawson English" wrote:
>I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
>AIMED-TALK 
>
>(AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)
>
>to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
>need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
>Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.
>
Yeah, and you're exactly the person to respond in a positive and supportive 
way...


>If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
>the press will at least mention this...
>
Hmm, yes, business as usual:

DPS SUKZ
GX ROOLZ
BRING ME THE HEAD OF GIL AMELIO


>We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
>this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
>stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.
>
Some of us have been being positive for several months.



Best wishes,

mmalc.

-- 

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From: maury@softarc.com (Maury Markowitz)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Some initial OpenStep notes
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:52:47 -0400
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In article <15891368@NEWS.SAIC.COM>, jon@txenxe.com wrote:

> Let the user name them, and display a ruler in the well with the name
> on it. Use a default name, perhaps a letter. The user could give them
> a new name, like 'headline', or 'quoted text'.
> 
> Actually, this opens up the possibility of storing them on disk, and
> having a palette of persistent rulers. People could create sets of
> rulers for their company documents and keep them in /LocalApps.

  Yeah, and better yet they would work in most programs too.  This is what
I hate on the Mac, I've got something like four spell checkers (I only use
one though) and god knows how many programs that have style sheets, yet I
can't share any of it.

  Quoted text might be another issue, unless we adopt a standard like we
use in our product.

Maury
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: GDB and NSProxies... no good friends
Date: 10 Jul 1997 15:09:24 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Hi,

is it a known "goodie" that you can not work with GDB using proxy objects ?

e.g.:

	po [myServer description]

works and reutrns the servers class (while isproxy reutns 1.. so we really 
have a distant object)

but 

	po [myserver doFunkyGeekySound]

does not work since gdb complains the "Target does not respond to method" 
even if it really is implementing it. 
Is there a known workaround ? Since I suspect gdb does just check the mehtdos 
which are really implemented by the local class.

Shouldn't it behave differently for NXProxies ?

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: acurylo@inmediapresents.nospam.com (Alex Curylo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 10 Jul 1997 16:37:55 GMT
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> Yes and no. Amelio got canned because he didn't improve Apple's bottom line
> and (I suspect) because Q3 results are going to be much worse than the
> concensus suggested: $120 million+ losses, I pontificate, maybe more.

Heh. Try $300 million.

#include 

> possibly Taligent Graphics) to shame. Amelio's decision to not only go with
> the inferior Display PostScript in Rhapsody but to ALSO cripple MacOS
> graphics by killing GX's ability to print, is as good an example of the
> lack of consumer advocacy that has plagued Amelio's (and now, Steve Jobs',
> I fear) Apple as you can find.

Didn't we go over this before? The major source of actual dollars for
Apple in the COMPETITIVE marketplace is publishing. Publishers of all
sorts go all glassy-eyed and drooling at the mere thought of being able to
work in Display PostScript, while they scatter screaming at the mere
mention of GX. So a realistic look at Apple's actual marketplace leads one
inescapably to the conclusion that DPS is the truly consumer advocating
position. QED.

> He did nothing to inspire the customers, the engineers, the developers or
> the stockholders.

Hmmmm...I fall into three of those four categories, and Rhapsody inspired me :)

----
Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com

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From: ryno@teleport.com (Mitchell J Laurren-Ring)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:16:46 -0700
Organization: La Cie Limited
Lines: 40
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In article ,
ckoller@worldnet.att.net (Craig Koller) wrote:

> In article , "Lawson English"
>  wrote:
> 
> > I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
> > AIMED-TALK 
> > 
> > (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)
> > 
> > to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
> > need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
> > Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.
> > 
> > If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
> > the press will at least mention this...
> > 
> > Talk about ammo for more FUD...
> > 
> > We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
> > this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
> > stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.
> > 
> Come on, Lawson, we all know Amelio got canned because he axed QDGX...  
> 
> 
> 
> ;@>


Uh oh!

You just gave him a virtual dime...

-Mick

-- 
Mitchell J Laurren-Ring
La Cie Limited
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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: A WINNER!  NSThread event queue performance woes
Date: 10 Jul 1997 13:04:04 -0400
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
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In article , penrose@w09.sfc.keio.ac.jp wrote:

> Alex quoted the NeXTstep 3.3 release notes, mentioning that the
> objective-c run-time system is made thread-safe by invoking
> objc_setMultithreaded(BOOL value).  The release notes indicate
> that this safety mechanism incurs a performance penalty for any
> objective-c message, increasing the overhead by a factor of 3, as
> a lock must be acquired each time a message is sent.

> If anyone at Apple cares to comment, it would be great.  I suggest
> implementing a method in NSThread such as

> setMultiThreaded:(BOOL) aValue

> such that multi-threaded applications are not crippled for life once
> they use a thread.

Or, Apple could use a better thread-safe runtime.  IIRC, the gcc runtime
does not suffer from that 3x performance hit (caused by throwing a mutex
around the whole runtime, basically).

(I also seem to recall that NeXT had fixed this..  but I looked at the
4.x release notes and didn't see anything about it.  Was I hallucinating?)
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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CONTEST! solve the NSThread event queue performance bug and win!
Date: 10 Jul 1997 02:36:33 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
Lines: 25
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References: 
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Cc: penrose@w09.sfc.keio.ac.jp

In  penrose@w09.sfc.keio.ac.jp wrote:
> 100 Yen goes to the first cogent reply to my earlier inquiries regarding
> the use of NSThread and NSEvent queue performance degradation.

here's a hint from the old NS3.3 Objective C release notes.
I don't know how much this applies to NSThread, but it probably still does.

P.S. From experience, if you have mach threads without making the run time
system thread safe, you will get random crashes.

(if by some miracle this is the best answer you get, give the yen to charity 
please)

	Making Objective C Thread Safe

The Objective C run-time system has been made safe for use in multi-threaded 
programs.  Since complete thread-safety requires that a lock be acquired every 
time a message is sent (which increases the time required to send a message by a 
factor of approximately three), the thread safety features must be explicitly 
enabled using the new function objc_setMultithreaded().

--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: dbriggs@stem.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Draw.app (Re: Openstep examples OO design)
Date: 10 Jul 1997 18:06:10 GMT
Organization: Systemix, Inc.
Lines: 47
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Hi, all -- 

About Draw.app as an example of Openstep OO design:

In article <5pmd4m$i21$2@news.xmission.com> don@globalobjects.com (Don  Yacktman) writes:
> ... The  design in Draw is far too cumbersome to extend easily, 

I agree.

And  izidor.jerebic@select-tech.si wrote:
> I'm really interested what are the big deficiencies you found in 
> new examples, e.g. Draw? Are there any  practices advised in there 
> that we should definitely not follow?

Good question -- getting started on the right path is very important.
I've found the examples generally very helpful, especially Draw.app.
However, in my opinion, the developer community would be better served if 
Draw.app were repackaged as an example framework, served up with documentation,
and had some bugs fixed. 

Also, I can identify a practice in Draw.app that does not scale well.
There's a file called "draw.h" that imports "everything". A newbie 
building an application based on Draw.app might be tempted to extend 
draw.h to import all the important additional *.h files. Don't!
You'll lose a kind of modularity. It becomes "cumbersome" rapidly:
instead of
  #import "Banana.h" 
it'll be 
  #import "WholeGorilla.h" 
instead. I recommend that you follow the more typical structure found 
in the other examples.

One last point: Draw.app as it stands fails to "do the right thing" in 
some simple cases. Try this:
 [1] Fire up Draw.app.
 [2] Draw two rectangles; draw a large one, then a smaller one below 
     the first. They shouldn't overlap.
 [3] Move the smaller rectangle inside the bounds of the larger one.
 [4] Drag-select both rectangles.
Draw.app is now confused; try to move the selected rectangles. Pfft!

In order to use Draw.app as a basis, we repackaged it as a framework and 
fixed a few such bugs (J. Renato Galvez). 

	Don Briggs
	
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From: randy97
Subject: http://www.love.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
NNTP-Posting-Host: pgh.nauticom.net
Message-ID: <33c52b4f.1@pgh.nauticom.net>
Date: 10 Jul 97 18:34:55 GMT
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Looking to find people in your area that enjoy the same things
as this newsgroup?

Check out http://www.love.com

It's free, it's new, and it's awesome.

Rand

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From: Charles William Swiger 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:26:43 -0400
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
Lines: 37
Message-ID: <4nlHRna00iWW05apI0@andrew.cmu.edu>
References: <5p8ucu$khl@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <5pb22f$na6$1@oxygen.technet.net> <5ph9gd$5dp$1@owl.slip.net> <5phqhq$ied$1@vader.wolfware.ipc.net> <5pi60t$o16$1@news2.digex.net>  
	<199707092338411585593@dialup96-5-11.swipnet.se>
NNTP-Posting-Host: po8.andrew.cmu.edu
In-Reply-To: <199707092338411585593@dialup96-5-11.swipnet.se>

Excerpts from netnews.comp.sys.next.programmer: 9-Jul-97 Re: [Q]
OpenStep Garbage Co.. by Lars Farm@ite.mh.se 
>> That has not been my argument-- I understand what GC is, and that it can
>> be very nice under some circumstances.  The problem is that you don't
>> seem to understand that GC is not a panacea, and that it is not a
>> solution to all the world's programming ills.
>  
> Interesting quoting technique and similarly interesting deduction. I
> said "useful tool, but no silver bullet". From that you deduce that
> "useful tool, but no panacea" is beyond my grasp... Hmmm... Please
> reread the rest of the quoted paragraph (snipped by you) and the next
> paragraph (snipped by you). Compare to what you said above. 

Oh, I read it.  The problem is, your earlier arguments were explicitly
ignoring issues like VM and you have done a remarkable job of not
discussing substantive issues such as the tradeoffs involved with
conservative GC.

If you were willing to describe your experiences with GC in a
quantitative fashion-- ie, in this project we switched from using
explicit malloc()/free() combinations to using a conservative Boehm GC,
and the running time changed from T1 second to T2 seconds, and the
average memory usage switched from a RSIZE of M1 megabytes to M2
megabytes, then this discussion would be much more productive.

As it stands now, you appear to be determined to misinterpret my
comments as a blanket criticism of GC when instead I am trying to
clearly identify the tradeoffs encountered when using GC, and I don't
see any value to continuing such a debate.

-Chuck


         Charles Swiger | cs4w@andrew.cmu.edu | standard disclaimer
        ----------------+---------------------+---------------------
           I know you're an optimist if you think I'm a pessimist.

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From: Michael Giddings 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: CVS unusable with 4.2 PB/Mach?  Strange path mapping bug . . .
Date: 10 Jul 1997 20:48:31 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Madison
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Has anyone else gotten the SCM module for CVS to work correctly with mach?  
I've run into what seems like a major bug.

In trying to "Create Work Directory" under OS 4.2/mach, Project builder 
converts all pathnames I enter under the field "Project's Local Work 
Directory" and makes them into Windoze style paths, by making the 
substitution "/ -> \".  It actually checks out a directory at root with a 
name such as \joes\garage when I give it /joes/garage, but then, in the last 
phase of creating this work directory, it bombs because it goes back and 
looks for the original /joes/garage to make some modifications, which was 
never created in the first place!   

I haven't yet found a way around this, and it seemingly makes the SCM on PB 
for Mach useless.  Has anyone else seen this?


Please replace "_at_" with @ to respond via e-mail (to help me avoid spam), 
thanks.

--
Michael Giddings
giddings_at_chem.wisc.edu 
giddings_at_barbarian.com
(608)258-1699 or (608) 692-2851
http://smithlab.chem.wisc.edu/PersonalPages/giddings/giddings.html
http://www.barbarian.com

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 10 Jul 1997 17:44:01 -0700
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Alex Curylo  said:

> Didn't we go over this before? The major source of actual dollars for
> Apple in the COMPETITIVE marketplace is publishing. Publishers of all
> sorts go all glassy-eyed and drooling at the mere thought of being able
to
> work in Display PostScript, while they scatter screaming at the mere
> mention of GX. So a realistic look at Apple's actual marketplace leads
one
> inescapably to the conclusion that DPS is the truly consumer advocating
> position. QED.

Could it possibly be because Apple did an absolutely horrible job marketing
GX?

What if GX could be marketed properly?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build a better mousetrap, yes, but then market it like crazy, or instead of

catching mice you'll only collect dust. -David Yeargin
-------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Michael J. Peck" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:16:14 -0500
Organization: Intex.Net (http://www.intex.net/)
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Lawson English wrote:

> > Didn't we go over this before? The major source of actual dollars for
> > Apple in the COMPETITIVE marketplace is publishing. Publishers of all
> > sorts go all glassy-eyed and drooling at the mere thought of being able
> to
> > work in Display PostScript, while they scatter screaming at the mere
> > mention of GX. So a realistic look at Apple's actual marketplace leads
> one
> > inescapably to the conclusion that DPS is the truly consumer advocating
> > position. QED.
> 
> Could it possibly be because Apple did an absolutely horrible job marketing
> GX?
> 
> What if GX could be marketed properly?

I'm inclined to believe that GX was a good technology that was never
given a chance. All exasperation aside over flogging a dead horse, from
what I know (very little) about GX, it was a good technology that,
because of its newness and lack of supporters (Apple is a weak supporter
of anything), was buried in the onslaught of new technologies.

DPS had/has a much stronger market position by far, and no matter how
much better GX was, it never had a real chance to show what it was
worth, especially amid all the snide jeers and jokes about memory
requirements and such.

MJP
--
"Now you see, Lone Star, that evil will always triumph, because good is
dumb."
     - Dark Helmet
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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSTableView doesn't appear to know it's selected row
Date: 10 Jul 1997 23:57:27 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 46
Message-ID: <5q3st7$les$1@concorde.ctp.com>
Reply-To: dcoyle@ctp.com
NNTP-Posting-Host: 149.44.75.195

Hi all:

I'm having real trouble with an NSTableView.

My tableView delegate, which also has an ivar pointing to the NSTV,  
implements the delegate method:
- (void)tableViewSelectionDidChange:(NSNotification*)aNotification

Cool.  Fills with data, looks good...

When I ask the notification's object for the selected row, it returns the  
correct selected row.
HOWEVER
if, anywhere else in this class, I attempt to get the selected row using
[myIvarForTheNSTV selectedRow] I ALWAYS get 0.

but I can, for example, check that my ivar really does point to that same  
NSTV
(via myIvarForTheNSTV == [aNotification object] in aforementioned method)

BUT WAIT!  it gets stranger!.

I create

int myHackIndexIvar;

and do
myHackIndexIvar = [[aNotification object] selectedRow];
in that delegate method, then it is correctly set.

But! when I try to use that ivar anywhere else, it has mysteriously become  
0.

Also, for what it's worth, this is all in a bundle, and thus a real pain  
to debug with gdb...( NSLog()  debugging )

Any ideas?

Dave

-------
 /\/\   Dave Coyle   
/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / /  118/119 Lower Baggot Street
 \/\/   Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
        Tel: +353 1 607 9008    WWW:  http://www.ctp.com>
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From: LTaylor7@ix.netcom.com (Daniel L. Taylor)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:52:59 -0700
Organization: Netcom
Lines: 30
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> > Didn't we go over this before? The major source of actual dollars for
> > Apple in the COMPETITIVE marketplace is publishing. Publishers of all
> > sorts go all glassy-eyed and drooling at the mere thought of being able
> to
> > work in Display PostScript, while they scatter screaming at the mere
> > mention of GX. So a realistic look at Apple's actual marketplace leads
> one
> > inescapably to the conclusion that DPS is the truly consumer advocating
> > position. QED.
> 
> Could it possibly be because Apple did an absolutely horrible job marketing
> GX?
> 
> What if GX could be marketed properly?

Right now Windows and DPS dominate their respective markets. May I suggest
that we focus on competition with WINDOWS and just accept DPS since the
former is our true competitive enemy and the latter could help us fight
the former? Please can we focus? PLEASE?

-- 
Daniel L. Taylor
LTaylor7@ix.netcom.com
=================================================================
The Heritage Foundation            /// Town Hall
http://www.heritage.org/heritage/ ///  http://www.townhall.com/
=================================================================
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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: How can you turn on/off the Windows NT wait cursor?
Date: 11 Jul 1997 00:20:33 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
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Does anyone know how to turn on and off the wait cursor under OS/NT4.2?

It no longer happens automatically, but I heard you could make some function
calls to some Microsoft stuff - say bracketed a long operation.

Thanks in advance for any help.
--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: Ian Russell Ollmann 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 20:12:16 -0700
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA
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On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Joe Ragosta wrote:

> What happened? Lawson writing something supportive of Apple? That's bigger
> news than Amelio's resignation. Maybe we can get AP and Reuters to carry
> that news to put a positive spin on things.

It would only be bigger news if Joe Ragosta wrote something unsupportive
of Apple. :-) That would mean invoking the emergency broadcast system, I
believe. 

				Ian


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From: "Frank Alviani" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Prelude To Rhapsody - ToDo example application complaints
Date: 10 Jul 97 20:43:25 -0500
Organization: Netcom
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Hello All,

I am working through the examples in the P2R tutorial. While I found the
first 2 examples quite adequate, I am pretty upset with the ToDo example.
It seems more an example of bad editorial QA than a usable tutorial
example.

- The installed example code, compiled with no modifications, crashes due
to a rather silly bug; I had already found it in the code I typed in from
the book.

- There are a significant number of differences between the files installed
and the material in the book. Methods are overridden in the installed
files, for one, that aren't even mentioned in the tutorial text.

-Inter-object connections are made in the provided example that I cannot
figure out. The connections, when viewed in IB, seem identical with those I
have manually created. This is more obfuscation than clarification.

Has anyone else run into this sort of thing? I have many years of OO
programming experience in Object Pascal and C++, with and without
frameworks, and consider myself pretty competent. I like Objective-C and
the entire OpenStep system. But this is very bad!

---------------------------------------------------
This message was created and sent using the Cyberdog Mail System
---------------------------------------------------



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From: marcel@system.de
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 11 Jul 1997 06:09:09 GMT
Organization: Technical University Berlin, Germany
Lines: 26
Distribution: world
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References: 
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In article  "Lawson English"  
 writes:
> Alex Curylo  said:
> 
> > Didn't we go over this before? The major source of actual dollars for
> > Apple in the COMPETITIVE marketplace is publishing. Publishers of all
> > sorts go all glassy-eyed and drooling at the mere thought of being able
> to
> > work in Display PostScript, while they scatter screaming at the mere
> > mention of GX. So a realistic look at Apple's actual marketplace leads
> one
> > inescapably to the conclusion that DPS is the truly consumer advocating
> > position. QED.
> 
> Could it possibly be because Apple did an absolutely horrible job  
marketing
> GX?

Nope.

> What if GX could be marketed properly?

Would have had very little impact on the marketplace.  Now it is
certainly too late.  

Marcel
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From: arti@address.in.signature (Art Isbell)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GDB and NSProxies... no good friends
Date: 11 Jul 1997 06:15:45 GMT
Organization: LavaNet, Inc.
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tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel) wrote:

> is it a known "goodie" that you can not work with GDB using proxy objects ?

    Unfortunately, this has been the case since D.O. was introduced.  Maybe 
there's a basic problem making gdb work with proxies.  I reported this as a 
bug to NeXT quite some time ago but nothing has changed (and maybe it's just 
not possible).
-- 
Art Isbell                       NeXT/MIME Mail: arti at lava dot net
Trego Systems (for whom I don't speak)     Voice/Fax: +1 808 394 0511
OPENSTEP/NT                               Voice Mail: +1 808 394 0495
   managed care solutions            US Mail: Honolulu, HI 96825-2638
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From: luomat@peak.org (Timothy J. Luoma)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep command to make appwrapper out of shell script
Date: 11 Jul 1997 06:18:50 GMT
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I'm gonna keep looking for this til I understand what I thought I heard, but 
anyway....

I thought I heard someone say that OpenStep had a command of some kind that 
would take a shell script and make it an app wrapper.  That would be mighty 
handy.  Does anyone know what I am talking about?

TjL

-- 
TjL   

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From: cwolf@wolfware.com (Christopher Wolf)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: OpenStep command to make appwrapper out of shell script
Date: 11 Jul 1997 07:48:41 GMT
Organization: WolfWare
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On 07/10/97, Timothy J. Luoma wrote:
>
>I'm gonna keep looking for this til I understand what I thought I heard, but 
>anyway....
>
>I thought I heard someone say that OpenStep had a command of some kind that 
>would take a shell script and make it an app wrapper.  That would be mighty 
>handy.  Does anyone know what I am talking about?
>

No.  I think what you heard was me saying that I had to manually turn some 
commands (shell scripts) into 1-line-of-code apps in order to wrap them together 
with a unique icon.

Theoretically someone could create a utility to do this without requiring a 
recompile... would require a template app which looked for a shell script of a 
specific (hard-coded) name within the app wrapper.   The utility could use the 
command line tools for manipulating Mach-O to stick an appropriate image in the 
app executable for the icon and then rename the app wrapper and the executable 
appropriately.

>TjL
>
>-- 
>TjL   
>
>


-- 
_______________________________________________________________________

Christopher A. Wolf -- WolfWare -- NeXTSTEP/OpenStep/Rhapsody Developer

    For info about NewsFlash the lightning fast NeXTSTEP news-reader
      visit our newly revised web site at: http://www.wolfware.com
_______________________________________________________________________

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From: penrose@w09.sfc.keio.ac.jp
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: A WINNER!  NSThread event queue performance woes
Date: 11 Jul 1997 17:41:26 +0900
Organization: Keio University Shonan Fujisawa Campus, Fujisawa Japan
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	<5q34m4$b9r$1@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
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nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban) said:
"Or, Apple could use a better thread-safe runtime.  IIRC, the gcc runtime
does not suffer from that 3x performance hit (caused by throwing a mutex
around the whole runtime, basically).

(I also seem to recall that NeXT had fixed this..  but I looked at the
4.x release notes and didn't see anything about it.  Was I hallucinating?)"

Unfortunately, you were probably hallucinating, unless the problem is
fixed for 4.2 as I am developing in 4.1.  I will reiterate for Apple's
sake and hope that redundant discussion will spark a semi-official
statement from Apple: Using NSThread spawned threads caused me a huge
performance hit with the NSEvent queue.  Mouse dragging was
ridiculously slow and sluggish.  The same performance problems exist
with my mach cthread implementation only while
objc_setMultithreaded(YES) is in effect, but the performance seems
degradation is slightly less severe than NSThread (80-90%).  The
performance problems are not present with objc_setMultithreaded(NO).
NSThread does not give similar developer access to the runtime thread
safety as objc_setMultithreaded().  I suggest to Apple that they
should, or as Nathan suggests, they improve the performance of the
run-time thread-safety mechanism.

Christopher Penrose
penrose@sfc.keio.ac.jp
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From: Wolfgang Baron 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CVS unusable with 4.2 PB/Mach?  Strange path mapping bug . . .
Date: 11 Jul 1997 08:58:03 GMT
Organization: iXpoint Informationssysteme GmbH, www.ixpoint.de
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In <5q3hqv$1ifo@news.doit.wisc.edu> Michael Giddings wrote:
> Has anyone else gotten the SCM module for CVS to work correctly with mach?  
> I've run into what seems like a major bug.
> 
> In trying to "Create Work Directory" under OS 4.2/mach, Project builder 
> converts all pathnames I enter under the field "Project's Local Work 
> Directory" and makes them into Windoze style paths, by making the 
> substitution "/ -> \".

I came accross another problem, trying to set the CVSROOT variable for
cvs (as described in the manual) to use under ProjectBuilder.  I have
tried all the startup scripts for users and root.  I do not seem to be
able to set this environment variable for any application, as applications
are run by the workspace, which is run by the loginWindow and has never
used a shell on the way.  How can I avoid this problem?

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Dipl.- Inform. Wolfgang Baron                 +
+ iXpoint Informationssysteme GmbH              +
+ Daimlerstrasse 3,  76275 Ettlingen,   Germany +
+ phone ++49 7243 3775-82 Fax ++49 7243 3775-77 +
+ email: wbaron@ixpoint.de (NeXTmail and MIME)  +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ pConnector - Network Printing for NEXTSTEP    +
+ sca - the static code analyser                +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: tiggr@ics.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,comp.lang.objective-c
Subject: Re: ISO Objective C interface file grammar
Date: 11 Jul 1997 12:27:00 +0200
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology
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In article <5q3ucg$mt@saturn.genoa.com> Alex Blakemore  writes:

   Does anyone no of an available yacc/bison grammar for Objective-C?

If the GPL suits you, GCC comes with one.

   We just need to parse header files.

Is a header file any simpler than a source file?  --Tiggr
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From: renkes@OneVision.de (Frank Renkes)
Subject: Re: How to split classes hierarhy to bundles
X-Nntp-Posting-Host: monet
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Organization: OneVision Vertriebs-GmbH, Regensburg, Germany
References: <33C0F8E2.273C@rtr.transit.ru>
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:18:39 GMT
Lines: 22

If you just export classes in your bundle you can use the
"-suppress undefined" flag for the linker. Then you can
ignore the warning for unresolved classes.

Frank

In article <33C0F8E2.273C@rtr.transit.ru> Iracly   
writes:
> Is anybody have idea how to divide class hierarhy to different loadable
> bundles. Under Windows I can just declare class as __export/__import and
> then link any other DLL (even with derived classes) with import library.
> Is some analogues under OPENSTEP? When I just try to compile "derived
> bundle" I got UNRESOLVED EXTERNAL ... message from linker, If I make
> some dummy implementation of base class in derived bundle, than after I
> load derived bundle, the original base class was replased with dummy
> implementation from second one!
> 
> PS I use OPENSTEP developer v4.2 prerelease 2 for NT 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Iracly (iracly@com2com.ru or iracly@rat.radio-msu.net)
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From: fpottier@pauillac.inria.fr (Francois Pottier)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CONTEST! solve the NSThread event queue performance bug and win!
Date: 11 Jul 1997 13:46:52 GMT
Organization: INRIA Rocquencourt, BP 105, 78153 Le Chesnay Cedex, France
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In article ,
  wrote:
>
>100 Yen goes to the first cogent reply to my earlier inquiries regarding
>the use of NSThread and NSEvent queue performance degradation.

I don't have the answer (though I'm interested, since I'm designing an
OpenStep app which will eventually be multi-threaded), but I'd like to
commend you for this innovative way of getting advice on Usenet!

Cheers,

--
Franois Pottier
Francois.Pottier@inria.fr
http://pauillac.inria.fr/~fpottier/
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From: dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Stupidity solved! Re: NSTableView ...
Date: 11 Jul 1997 13:59:23 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
Lines: 27
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In article <5q3st7$les$1@concorde.ctp.com> dcoyle@ctp.com (David A. Coyle)  
writes:
> Hi all:
> 
> I'm having real trouble with an NSTableView.
<-- 8< --->
> if, anywhere else in this class, I attempt to get the selected row using
> [myIvarForTheNSTV selectedRow] I ALWAYS get 0.

Egad.

I have to apologize to everyone who even wasted a minute reading my post.

As it turned out, I had somehow created TWO instances of my object: one  
was connected to the table view, the other wasn't.  Interestingly, they  
were strangely cross-connected to IB actions...

Moral: ObjectAlloc is a REALLY USEFUL tool!

Dave

-------
 /\/\   Dave Coyle   
/ /_ \  Cambridge Technology Partners
\  / /  118/119 Lower Baggot Street
 \/\/   Dublin 2, Republic of Ireland
        Tel: +353 1 607 9008    WWW:  http://www.ctp.com>
####################################################################
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:07:03 -0400
From: joe.ragosta@dol.net (Joe Ragosta)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
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In article , Ian Russell
Ollmann  wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> 
> > What happened? Lawson writing something supportive of Apple? That's bigger
> > news than Amelio's resignation. Maybe we can get AP and Reuters to carry
> > that news to put a positive spin on things.
> 
> It would only be bigger news if Joe Ragosta wrote something unsupportive
> of Apple. :-) That would mean invoking the emergency broadcast system, I
> believe. 

Which, of course, proves that you don't actually _read_ anything I write.

I have been openly critical of _many_ things Apple has done:

Lack of marketing
Dropping OpenDoc/Cyberdog
Several UI issues
Taking so long to get rid of Spindler
Not correcting the press
Lack of developer support

Granted, I believe that Apple, on the whole, is on the right track. I
suppose you have a problem with that, so you accuse me of being one sided
and blind.

-- 
Regards,

Joe Ragosta
See the Complete Macintosh Advocacy Site
http://www.dol.net/~Ragosta/complmac.htm
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From: Barry 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:47:46 -0700
Organization: Stanford University
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Gary W. Longsine wrote:
> 
> In  it appeared that "Lawson English" wrote:
> > I think that all Mac developers and other interested people should meet on
> > AIMED-TALK
> >
> > (AIMED = Association of Independent Macintosh Engineers and Developers)
> >
> > to discuss how to handle this situation (Amelio and Hancock resigning). We
> > need to act very quickly to respond to this in an
> > Apple/Mac/Rhapsody-supportive way.
> >
> 
> > If we can portray developers as taking a "business as usual" stance, maybe
> > the press will at least mention this...
> >
> > We gotta be as positive (in a non-finger-pointing way) as possible about
> > this situation. And figure out how to convince dealers, customers and
> > stockholders that this is not the end of the world for Apple/Macintosh/etc.
> 
> > HOW DO I SUBSCRIBE TO AIMED-TALK?
> >      Send E-mail to:
> >            
> >      with a blank subject line and the following command as the
> >      first (and only) line of the message body:
> >           SUBSCRIBE
> 
> Lawson, I could kiss you... or did you go away and leave yourself logged in
> again?
> 

Well, it appears Lawson was wrong.  Instead of being positive and
supportive, we should take this turn of events as a new opportunity to
exchange insults and put-downs (in a finger-pointing way).

Barry
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From: "Jane Fabeck" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: OpenStep App not running on Win95
Date: 11 Jul 1997 15:50:56 GMT
Organization: Objects Alive Custom Software
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <01bc8e13$27b49480$02ac2ac0@jane>
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I created an application on WindowsNT and tried to run it on Windows95
without success. When I double-click the executable the application does'nt
do anything. It just returns as if it was finished.
I ran all the demo apps on the Windows95 without any problem.

I only have the deployment part of OpenStep 4.2 installed on the Windows95
machine, Is this a problem? Do I have to recompile my application on the
Windows95 machine?

Are there different build options I have to take when compiling the
application on the WindowsNT machine?

Is there some sort of log file on Windows95 that I may be able to consult
to find out what happened?

Thanks
Bruce Montegani
bmont@telcomplus.com
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From: acurylo@inmediapresents.nospam.com (Alex Curylo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 11 Jul 1997 17:06:50 GMT
Organization: InMedia Presentations
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> Could it possibly be because Apple did an absolutely horrible job marketing
> GX? 
> What if GX could be marketed properly?

Yeah, well, the same could be said about AppleScript, the Telephone
Manager, the Communications Toolbox, the PowerTalk collection, the
Speech/Recognition collection, ScriptX, HyperCard, and I could go on and
on for quite a while here but I'd get really depressed...

What's actually the big missing piece is not the marketing, it's the lack
of effort to integrate new technologies into the core OS and applications.
How many Apple and Claris applications supported GX in any meaningful
fashion? In ANY fashion? And how many were downright incompatible in one
form or another? THERE is the core problem, not the marketing. As with
pretty much everything I listed above.

I personally suspect that GX is going to enjoy far greater success in its
new incarnation of QT Vector Animation then it ever did as itself,
anyway...

----
Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com

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From: jgrass@cs.umass.edu (Joshua Grass)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 11 Jul 1997 17:19:21 GMT
Organization: CMPSCI Dept, UMass Amherst
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In article ,
Lawson English  wrote:
>Craig Koller  said:
>
>> 
>> Come on, Lawson, we all know Amelio got canned because he axed QDGX... 
>
>Yes and no. Amelio got canned because he didn't improve Apple's bottom line
>and (I suspect) because Q3 results are going to be much worse than the
>concensus suggested: $120 million+ losses, I pontificate, maybe more.
>
>As to how this relates to GX?
>
>GX is a MacOS technology that puts everything else in its category (save
>possibly Taligent Graphics) to shame. Amelio's decision to not only go with
>the inferior Display PostScript in Rhapsody but to ALSO cripple MacOS
>graphics by killing GX's ability to print, is as good an example of the
>lack of consumer advocacy that has plagued Amelio's (and now, Steve Jobs',
>I fear) Apple as you can find.
>
>GX enables small developers to compete with large developers in the 2D
>graphics arena. 
>
>OpenDOc does that in a more comprehensive way.
>

I think the real leason here, and the one that Amelio understood, was
that Apple doesn't have the marketing resources to "push" more then
one technology at a time.  And the one they picked was Quicktime, now
everyone knows about quicktime, everyone loves quicktime, and it
doesn't need to be pushed any more.  I'd say that Quicktime is now
pretty close to a standard, and Apple has made it clear what the new
push will be, Rhapsody, and the fact that it will bring the Mac
interface to intel.  Apple doesn't have the resources to "push"
anything else, and against Microsoft, if you don't push it it will
die.  Think about how much press ActiveX and DirectX have gotten, to
name just two Microsoft technologies.  Apple will survive long enough
to make a really good show of Rhapsody, and that's were all of the
resources have to be spent.

Even if Apple dies it will do one good thing before then, it will kill
Windows 95-97(8?) and all the DOS underpinnings it has.  How?  Because
Rhapsody will get enough press that Microsoft will have to shift to
full NT deployment.  It's not the greatest of worlds, everyone using
NT, but at least it's a world I can live in.

Of course, I hope Rhapsody catches on, and as soon as the developer
version is out, I'm going to start writing for it.  But no matter what
happens, windows 97 is a goner...and that makes me happy.

						Joshua
-- 
If you want to know who you are,        | jgrass@cs.umass.edu
it's important to know who you've been. | http://anytime.cs.umass.edu/~jgrass

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From: Alex Blakemore 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep examples OO design (was Re: Some initial OpenStep notes)
Date: 11 Jul 1997 03:35:32 GMT
Organization: Genoa Software Systems
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5q49m4$mt@saturn.genoa.com>
References: <5pmd4m$i21$2@news.xmission.com> <5q26ue$ndb$1@lazar.select-tech.si>
Reply-To: Alex Blakemore 
NNTP-Posting-Host: saturn
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In <5q26ue$ndb$1@lazar.select-tech.si> izidor.jerebic@select-tech.si wrote:
> If you compare Draw in Nextstep 3.x and Draw in 4.x you can see that the  
> Draw in 4.x is completely new code and very improved. Actually, it  
> conforms to ModelViewController OO design. The original Draw was one big  
> hack, really. But the new one is rather good

Are you sure we're looking at the same app?
As far as I can tell, 4.X draw is still one big hack.

I tell you from experience, it is not a good foundation for building a custom app 
:-(

> I must confess I did not do any modification of the example code. I just  
> briefly went through the code of examples and it looked OK to me...
> what are the   big deficiencies you found in new examples, e.g. Draw? Are there 
any  
> practices advised in there that we should definitely not follow?

The undo system is atrocious for one.

--
Alex Blakemore
alex@genoa.com     NeXT, MIME and ASCII mail accepted

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From: Steve Dekorte 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: How to split classes hierarhy to bundles
Date: 11 Jul 1997 18:37:18 GMT
Organization: Slip.Net (http://www.slip.net)
Lines: 9
Message-ID: <5q5ugu$l16$1@owl.slip.net>
References: <33C0F8E2.273C@rtr.transit.ru>
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X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA release 970124]

Iracly  wrote:
> Is anybody have idea how to divide class hierarhy to different loadable
> bundles. 

This works fine for me when using frameworks.
You might try using frameworks instead of bundles.

-- 
Steve Dekorte - OpenStep consultant - San Francisco
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From: drifterusa@macconnect.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:58:45 -0500
Organization: None
Lines: 12
Message-ID: <1997071111584570467@accs-as804-dp09.atln.grid.net>
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John Christie wrote:

> Craig Koller wrote:
> 
> > Come on, Lawson, we all know Amelio got canned because he axed QDGX...
> 
>    And I thought it was because Markkula owns a big piece of BBDO.

Nah, the Board was getting concerned that Apple might actually have a
coherent business strategy in place.

John Bauer 
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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 11 Jul 1997 12:02:00 -0700
Organization: Primenet Services for the Internet
Lines: 30
Message-ID: 
References: 
X-Posted-By: @206.165.44.76 (english)
To: "Alex Curylo" 
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Alex Curylo  said:

> I personally suspect that GX is going to enjoy far greater success in its
> new incarnation of QT Vector Animation then it ever did as itself,
> anyway...



Except that it is NOT QT Vector Animation.

Ironic, isn't it?


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From: tiggr@ics.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection
Date: 12 Jul 1997 00:11:01 +0200
Organization: Eindhoven University of Technology
Sender: tiggr@tom.ics.ele.tue.nl
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	<5pq2l2$11i@mpaque.mpaque>
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In article <5pq2l2$11i@mpaque.mpaque> mpaque.spa-am@nospam.wco.com (Mike Paquette) writes:

   > Reference counting is nothing but a very poor implementation of GC.

   It has the advantage of working over an allocation pool spread over  
   multiple address spaces, or processes.

The two are seperate mechanisms and the local GC can be a real GC while
the distributed GC (which maintains the links across address spaces) can
employ reference counting.  --Tiggr
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From: Wolfgang Baron 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.bugs,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: CVS unusable with 4.2 PB/Mach?  Strange path mapping bug . . .
Date: 11 Jul 1997 13:51:29 GMT
Organization: iXpoint Informationssysteme GmbH, www.ixpoint.de
Lines: 29
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <5q5dp1$2s8$1@ixpoint.de>
References: <5q3hqv$1ifo@news.doit.wisc.edu> <5q4sir$24o$1@ixpoint.de>
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Hi,

In <5q4sir$24o$1@ixpoint.de> Wolfgang Baron wrote:
> In <5q3hqv$1ifo@news.doit.wisc.edu> Michael Giddings wrote:

Apart from the problems seen under Mach, has anyone successfully worked
with cvs under NT? When I checkout a module, only the files and directories
with the generated CVS subdirectories of  the first level directory get
extracted.  The first level directory is named 'cvs'  instead of the module
name.

When I run cvs from a shell, it works as expected.

Has anyone successfully worked with cvs under NT ?  Has anyone seen the
same or other problems ?

--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ Dipl.- Inform. Wolfgang Baron                 +
+ iXpoint Informationssysteme GmbH              +
+ Daimlerstrasse 3,  76275 Ettlingen,   Germany +
+ phone ++49 7243 3775-82 Fax ++49 7243 3775-77 +
+ email: wbaron@ixpoint.de (NeXTmail and MIME)  +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+ pConnector - Network Printing for NEXTSTEP    +
+ sca - the static code analyser                +
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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From: NNTP Component 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer,uswest.test,uswest.test,uswest.test
Subject: Just a test
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997
 15:50:01 PST
Organization: US WEST Advanced Technologies
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <5q69p0$4ec@news.advtech.uswest.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pyramid.advtech.uswest.com

Hey, this is only a test!


About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.
About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes. About 3 kilobytes.


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From: nurban@sps1.phys.vt.edu (Nathan Urban)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Openstep examples OO design (was Re: Some initial OpenStep notes)
Date: 11 Jul 1997 22:11:52 -0400
Organization: Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University
Lines: 11
Message-ID: <5q6p58$uh0$1@sps1.phys.vt.edu>
References: <5pmd4m$i21$2@news.xmission.com> <5q26ue$ndb$1@lazar.select-tech.si> <5q49m4$mt@saturn.genoa.com>
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In article <5q49m4$mt@saturn.genoa.com>, Alex Blakemore  wrote:

> In <5q26ue$ndb$1@lazar.select-tech.si> izidor.jerebic@select-tech.si wrote:

> > what are the   big deficiencies you found in new examples, e.g. Draw?
> > Are there any practices advised in there that we should definitely not
> > follow?

> The undo system is atrocious for one.

How would you implement an undo system?
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From: gtr@cyberbundle.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: >Entrepreneurs Needed
Date: 11 Jul 1997 16:21:30 GMT
Organization: AFE, LLP
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5q5mia$n1r$1@its.hooked.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 1cust35.max32.atlanta.ga.ms.uu.net



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From: Steve Watt 
Organization: USENET spam abatement
Sender: randy97
Date: 12 Jul 97 02:54:03 GMT
Message-ID: 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: cmsg cancel <33c52b4f.1@pgh.nauticom.net>
Control: cancel <33c52b4f.1@pgh.nauticom.net>
Approved: steve@watt.com.nospam
X-Cancelled-By: steve@watt.com.nospam
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The original subject was:
}Subject: http://www.love.com
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From: mcconent@cyberbundle.net
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: ...Free Cash Grants
Date: 11 Jul 1997 18:12:49 GMT
Organization: Abc, LLC
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From: Dan Harley
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Best price on the net CD-R 74 Minute Gold $2.99 Retail package - no rebates no gimmics no surcharges
Date: 11 Jul 1997 12:23:52 GMT
Organization: NetPro Computer Services, Inc.
Lines: 58
Message-ID: <5q58ko$284$6732@picasso.op.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: d7-0f.ppp.op.net

NetPro Computer Services, Inc.
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From: Ian Russell Ollmann 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:08:06 -0700
Organization: The Scripps Research Institute, La Jolla, CA
Lines: 58
Message-ID: 
References:    
Reply-To: Ian Russell Ollmann 
NNTP-Posting-Host: wong.scripps.edu
Mime-Version: 1.0
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X-Sender: iano@wong
To: Joe Ragosta 
In-Reply-To: 
Xref: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de comp.sys.mac.advocacy:242237 comp.sys.mac.programmer.games:6690 comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc:23336 comp.sys.next.advocacy:74393 comp.sys.next.programmer:25365



On Fri, 11 Jul 1997, Joe Ragosta wrote:

> In article , Ian Russell
> Ollmann  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 9 Jul 1997, Joe Ragosta wrote:
> > 
> > > What happened? Lawson writing something supportive of Apple? That's bigger
> > > news than Amelio's resignation. Maybe we can get AP and Reuters to carry
> > > that news to put a positive spin on things.
> > 
> > It would only be bigger news if Joe Ragosta wrote something unsupportive
> > of Apple. :-) That would mean invoking the emergency broadcast system, I
> > believe. 
> 
> Which, of course, proves that you don't actually _read_ anything I write.
> 
> I have been openly critical of _many_ things Apple has done:
> 
> Lack of marketing
> Dropping OpenDoc/Cyberdog
> Several UI issues
> Taking so long to get rid of Spindler
> Not correcting the press
> Lack of developer support
> 
> Granted, I believe that Apple, on the whole, is on the right track. I
> suppose you have a problem with that, so you accuse me of being one sided
> and blind.

No Joe,

	I agree with you 90% of the time. I'm a big Mac fan, but some of
the things you've written to the advocacy groups are past what even I'm
willing to believe...and no I don't read everything you write. Who could
keep up? ;-) It was just a jab in fun in a similar spirit to your poke at
Lawson, who also often has quite reasonable things to say (though once
when I said he was well informed and trustworthy chap in another group, I
was referred to his contributions to this one -- csm.programmer.misc) To
be honest, I think you are often a bit one sided, but certainly not blind.
You understand the mac a hell of a lot better than most. I think Apple was
on pretty much the right track until yesterday. Now? Apple needs more
change like they need another Q2 with a 700 million loss. Actually, it's
funny how these things go hand in hand.  So, sure Apple could do better
marketing, and I'd like to be able to go to WWDC for free (the admission
price is about equal to my disposable income for the year), and they could
certainly put a better spin on negative events rather than hatching crazy
stories about Armelio's political aspirations that no one believes, etc.
I'll take your word that you've written such things and I'd have certainly
agreed with you when you did, if I had read it. I'm sorry for not giving
credit where it was due. 

				Ian Ollmann 



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From: Ian Russell Ollmann 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:57:57 -0700
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On 10 Jul 1997, Lawson English wrote:

> Alex Curylo  said:
> 
> > Didn't we go over this before? The major source of actual dollars for
> > Apple in the COMPETITIVE marketplace is publishing. Publishers of all
> > sorts go all glassy-eyed and drooling at the mere thought of being able
> to
> > work in Display PostScript, while they scatter screaming at the mere
> > mention of GX. So a realistic look at Apple's actual marketplace leads
> one
> > inescapably to the conclusion that DPS is the truly consumer advocating
> > position. QED.
> 
> Could it possibly be because Apple did an absolutely horrible job marketing
> GX?
> 
> What if GX could be marketed properly?

	I think the best way to market it is to just include it as a new
set of features in Sys 8.1 or 8.2, features that cannot be removed. While
a 3 MB larger System RAM footprint was unreasonable a year or two ago,
when Apple still shipped machines with 8 MB total, these days, it is a
little more reasonable, so long as the machine ships with 24-32 MB
minimum. If there is some redundancy between Quickdraw and GX (don't know,
haven't programmed for it) then maybe the old Quickdraw could be pulled
out and calls to it redirected to GX, thereby saving some RAM. I think the
problem was that you can't convince developers to use something if there
is no installed base, and you wont convince users to give up extra RAM for
something that so far as they can tell doesn't do any more than what is
already there. 

	However, I think that so long as it's candy coated, people will
swallow the pill. The new appearance manager might work nicely with GX.
Make the whole thing look really cool with lots of new GX effects, give
the user the option of always running at high screen resolutions using
GX to scale the image so it is not too small, etc.  Backwards
compatability issues aside, it could be really neat.

	It seems standard these days to give big releases a whole new
look. MS does it with every Word release. Apple does it with the System. 
Is OS8 all that much different from the rest of the updates between 7.5
and 7.6.1 that it really needs the new monniker? No, not really. The new
finder is cool and a time saver, but before we got redone error handling
code, a lot more stability, maybe a 20% speed boost overall, faster boot
times, better extensions handling, Open Transport, revamped virtual
memory, PCI support, etc. To me the reason why OS 8 is OS8 and not 7.7 is
that it looks noticeably different. People will pay big money (or big RAM) 
for big updates if they can be sure that they can tell the difference. GX
is great, but also subtle. To sell it you need to use it in a way that
wow's the public.  Use those capabilities to make the mac look like
something it wasn't before.  Then people will want it and developers can
develop for it. 

	The GX implementation has to be impressive and system wide -- i.e. 
don't just ship the new system with Gerbils GX and call it a day. Allow
new mouse pointer types that are transparent. Give the user the ability to
make any window, or at least any modal dialog window
translucent/transparent so that it doesn't obscure important data. Make
the entire desktop scalable so that people with poor vision can make
things three times normal size and people with 17" monitors that go to
1280x1024 can actually use that resolution and still read 12 pt text. Make
windows individually scalable so that you can make a window small and
still see all of its contents. How many times have you been able to fit
one and three quarters pages on your screen, but not two? This could be
fixed with scalable windows.  Look at every standard interface feature and
see if GX can enhance its operation in a way that adds value to the system
and productivity to the user. 

				Ian Ollmann

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From: Jim Redman 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 05:03:42 -0600
Organization: ErgoTech
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Alex Curylo wrote:
> 
> In article , "Lawson English"
>  wrote:
> > He did nothing to inspire the customers, the engineers, the developers or
> > the stockholders.
> 
> Hmmmm...I fall into three of those four categories, and Rhapsody inspired me :)

The man to inspire is Steve Jobs.  His presentations are always great,
with credit going to all the behind the scenes people who pull off the
demos.

From the "Wall Street Journal" interactive edition:
>Apple Computer announced that Gilbert Amelio has resigned as chairman and
>chief executive and that co-founder Steve Jobs will play an expanded
>management role.

Just so long as he isn't put in charge of the marketing department.  The
quality of NeXT and Apple marketing has been remarkable, in, as we all
know, a negative sense.  The one thing that you have to truly admire at
Microsoft is the quality of their marketing.  One way they do this is
pre-annouce just about every feature of a product and generate some
press hype long before the product is released, even the features that
don't ever make it into the product.  Traditionally NeXT's philosophy
has been to keep everything under wraps until the big release day, which
gets you one day of press coverage, instead of 6 months (or a year in
the case of Win95).  I'm intrigued to see what the Rhaposody philosophy
will be.  The pre-releases make me think that they may have learnt
something from the masters, hopefully enough.

Jim
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: initWithEditingContext:classDescription:globalID     question
Date: 12 Jul 1997 15:09:26 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Hi,

I'm quite new in EOF and I am really amazed about the stuff that NeXT has put 
together. It takes some (a lot of ?) time to get used to it and to fully 
understnad what is going on behind the scenes.

One thing that was not really clear form the docu of the EoGenericrecord is:

initWithEditingContext:classDescription:globalID

does that perfomr an [editicoContext insertObject:self] internally ?


I know that I might track that down using the debugger...but my EOF project 
does not use EoGenericRecords and so if some knows the quick YES-NO answer it 
would keep me from setting up some special lines just to track this down.

Thanx a lot.

aloha
	Tomi 
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From: *johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:35:03 -0400
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In article , Ian Russell
Ollmann  wrote:

>         I think the best way to market it is to just include it as a new
> set of features in Sys 8.1 or 8.2, features that cannot be removed. While
> a 3 MB larger System RAM footprint was unreasonable a year or two ago,

   If they just loaded the draw lbraries into the System (and maybe
replaced some of QD in the process) it would only take a few hundred k.

>         However, I think that so long as it's candy coated, people will
> swallow the pill. The new appearance manager might work nicely with GX.
> Make the whole thing look really cool with lots of new GX effects, give
> the user the option of always running at high screen resolutions using
> GX to scale the image so it is not too small, etc.  Backwards
> compatability issues aside, it could be really neat.

   Excellent idea, just make it invisible to all but programmers who want
to use it.  Write as much of the OS as possible in GX.  Port the draw
libraries to run within DPS.  Finish the job.  Make it an option that is
ALWAYS available.

>         The GX implementation has to be impressive and system wide -- i.e. 

   Yes, but not as a replacement.  The current draw libraries could be
incorporated into the system with only a few hundred k of code.  Put the
PC version on the net and tote it as the standard for lightweight internet
vector grphics.  There is no single move that could be done to speed the
internet than reduce graphics sizes by a factor of 10.

-- 
You aren't free if you CAN choose - only if you DO choose.
All you are is the decisions you make.

Remove "*" and ohnny (i.e. jc@) to reply via email
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: NSMutableDictionary dictionaryWithContentsOfFile:aPath     should different.
Date: 12 Jul 1997 16:14:34 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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Hi,

I just ran accross this kind of annoying "feature" in NSMutableDictionary 
dictionaryWithContentsOfFile method.

NSDcits and their ability to store data in ASCII format to disc is really 
nice and handy for tons of things. But the really big problem is that you 
always get in-mutable ionstances when you read the ASCII wil in.

This is a pain since in order to manipulate a stored strucuter you have to 
make a deep copy first (using e.g. MiscKits deepCopy feature)
But this really is a nightmare since it requires you too keep two copie of 
the potentially huge NSDict in memory.

IMHO the NSMutablexxxxx classes should behave differently then they do right 
now.

If I use a NSDict/Array to read in a structure I want it to be immutable.

But fi I use a NSMutableXxxx with xxxxWithContentsOfFile then I want to get a 
entrier strucutre build out of mutable classes.

This would be a lot more "productive" and a lot more useful then the current 
behavior.

Did I miss some hidden feauter or would you agree ?

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: tsengel@immd9.informatik.uni-erlangen.de (Thomas Engel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: [Q] OpenStep Garbage Collection and the distributed aspect
Date: 12 Jul 1997 16:37:34 GMT
Organization: Cambridge Technology Partners, Inc.
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tiggr@ics.ele.tue.nl (Pieter Schoenmakers) wrote:
>In article <5pq2l2$11i@mpaque.mpaque> mpaque.spa-am@nospam.wco.com (Mike 
Paquette) writes:
>
>   > Reference counting is nothing but a very poor implementation of GC.
>
>   It has the advantage of working over an allocation pool spread over  
>   multiple address spaces, or processes.
>
>The two are seperate mechanisms and the local GC can be a real GC while
>the distributed GC (which maintains the links across address spaces) can
>employ reference counting.  --Tiggr


Ok...lets thing about this for a while. What does that imply.

A local app can create object ref cylces since GC will detect them and remove 
them properly.
But if your ref cycles happen to be between different processes over DO..it 
will never go away ? (I can't see a way for the "smart" local GC to fix that 
shortcoming of the "distributed" GC..)

While I sure love the idea of real GC I can fully understand why NeXT went 
with the current solution since there is absolutly no difference between 
local and distributed objects.
You have the same policies and restrictions all over the place which might 
cause less confusion while it always demands the same caution during the 
design of retain/release actions.

I am not questioning the benefits of "real" GC...but I can see benefits of a 
unified "GC" mechanism as used under Openstep.

Aloha
	Tomi
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From: acurylo@inmediapresents.nospam.com (Alex Curylo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 12 Jul 1997 17:27:21 GMT
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In article , "Lawson English"
 wrote:

> Except that it is NOT QT Vector Animation.

Then why was Tom Dowd the one demonstrating it at WWDC? :)

Not to mention why do the Lightning/Draw people export their animations as
QT3 movies? Not because they spent a lot of time writing conversion code
:)

----
Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com

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From: acurylo@inmediapresents.nospam.com (Alex Curylo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 12 Jul 1997 17:33:13 GMT
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In article , Ian Russell
Ollmann  wrote:

>         The GX implementation has to be impressive and system wide -- i.e. 
> don't just ship the new system with Gerbils GX and call it a day. Allow
> new mouse pointer types that are transparent. Give the user the ability to
> make any window, or at least any modal dialog window
> translucent/transparent...

This is PRECISELY the point I was trying to make about why
GX/AppleScript/Telephone Manager/pick your failed technology of choice
went nowhere in particular; Apple didn't integrate its whizzy features
into the core OS in a sustained fashion.

It seems rather unfashionable to say nice things about Amelio these days,
but one thing you do need to give him credit for is doing a lot of good
work towards breaking down the independent fiefdoms at Apple that led
inescapably to this situation...

----
Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com

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From: acurylo@inmediapresents.nospam.com (Alex Curylo)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 12 Jul 1997 17:35:45 GMT
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In article <*johnnyc*-1207971235030001@192.0.2.1>,
*johnnyc*@or.psychology.dal.ca (John Christie) wrote:

> Put the
> PC version on the net and tote it as the standard for lightweight internet
> vector grphics.  There is no single move that could be done to speed the
> internet than reduce graphics sizes by a factor of 10.

 This has actually been done already. Another great coup for Apple
marketing that was, I see.

----
Alex Curylo -- alex@witty.com

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 12 Jul 1997 12:14:00 -0700
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Alex Curylo 

> (A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups:
> comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,
> comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.progr
> ammer)
> 
> In article , "Lawson English"
>  wrote:
> 
> > Except that it is NOT QT Vector Animation.
> 
> Then why was Tom Dowd the one demonstrating it at WWDC? :)
> 

He may have helped write  it, but it is NOT GX, or so we GX-oriented folks
have been told by both QT folk and GX folk.

> Not to mention why do the Lightning/Draw people export their animations
> as
> QT3 movies? Not because they spent a lot of time writing conversion code
> :)

Excuse? They most certainly DID write a converter from GX to QT Vector
Graphics. Want Mihail Lari's email address so that you can confirm what
they already say on their web page?

There is a LOT more to GX than what appears in QT.

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From: "Lawson English" 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: GX on HyperCard (Was Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 12 Jul 1997 12:59:00 -0700
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Ian Russell Ollmann  said:

[GX would have potential if marketed right]

> How many times have you been able to fit
> one and three quarters pages on your screen, but not two? This could be
> fixed with scalable windows.  Look at every standard interface feature
and
> see if GX can enhance its operation in a way that adds value to the
system
> and productivity to the user. 



That's supposed to be a feature with Rhapsody. "GX competes with DPS and
therefore must go" is the attitude that I have picked up. Some have
suggested that this is pure paranoia, and perhaps it is. Not all decisions
are based on greed and shortsightedness.

Afterall, Amelio didn't set out to lose Apple money during Christmas last
year, so the major blame that one can lay at his feet is what he has
readily admitted: he is not a marketing guy.

BTW, the GX HyperCard XFCN is going...

Well, I just crashed the Mac while adding a new library function of my own
to the list of available functions so I'm taking a break...

HOPEFULLY, it is going well. THe current call that I'm working on tracks
the mouse and draws an arbitrary GX shape on and off-screen simultaneously
with the mouse-tracking loop in C for maximum speed.

If it works as planned (I hope!), you will be able to create a
simple-minded GX doodling space in any HyperCard stack merely by pasting a
locked text field into the stack and adding an update routine to refresh
the GX drawing when needed. The GXFCN has to be available, of course.

Kewl, huh?


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From: slur@world.std.com (Scott Lahteine)
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
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In article <5q5pup$hq0@kernighan.cs.umass.edu>, jgrass@cs.umass.edu (Joshua
Grass) wrote:

|>Of course, I hope Rhapsody catches on, and as soon as the developer
|>version is out, I'm going to start writing for it.  But no matter what
|>happens, windows 97 is a goner...and that makes me happy.

   I think you underestimate the power of reality in this matter....

-- 
scott lahteine                    
                                  
"No Universe is perfect which leaves no room for improvement."
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From: NoSpa.Mgustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 00:33:30 -0400
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In article <199707100237521485904@accs-as809-dp07.atln.grid.net>,
drifterusa@macconnect.com (John Bauer) wrote:

> Gary W. Longsine wrote:
> 
> > I personally believe this [Amelio and Hancock's departure] is the best
> > news since Dec. 21, 1996.
> 
> Could you explain why?

Apple bought NeXT?

-----------

Bicycle Crash Test Dummy for Hire
gustilo@mail.med.upenn.edu
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From: drifterusa@macconnect.com (John Bauer)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 02:29:20 -0500
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 wrote:

> I wrote:
> 
> > Gary W. Longsine wrote:
> > 
> > > I personally believe this [Amelio and Hancock's departure] is the best
> > > news since Dec. 21, 1996.
> > 
> > Could you explain why?
> 
> Apple bought NeXT?

This is the second such answer I've gotten (though not from GWL) to my
obviously ambiguous question.  I wanted to know why a NeXT user thought
the departure of Amelio and Hancock was such good news since without
them, the NeXT purchase [apparently approved of above] might never have
happened.  Or is the whole statement sarcastic?

John Bauer
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From: lottery@sade.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Lottery FANS! Read This!!!
Date: 13 Jul 1997 09:40:10 GMT
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Check this program out! Do you want to receive FREE instant scratcher lottery tickets up to the THOUSANDS EVERY month? then go here
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This is a great opportunity for lottery fans!!

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From: jq@papoose.quick.com (James E. Quick)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: mmap via vm_* ???
Date: 13 Jul 1997 06:53:34 -0400
Organization: Quick and Associates
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In article <33B7AF69.167E@mpip-mainz.mpg.de>,
Stefan Ried   wrote:
>Hi,
>
>
>I'd like to compile mSQL 2.0 for my Next 4.2 System.
>
>But there is no mmap included in mach. 
>
>NeXTAnswer 1567 explains the corresponding vm_ routines to simulate
>mmap.
>
>Has anybody written a mmap for NeXT using the vm_ routines already ?

There actually is an mmap in the base system library, but it is
undocumented for a reason.  There is no corresponding munmap.  I've
spent some time working on the mmap problem, and though I was unable
to find a satisfactory solution, I can at least explain the
situation.

The standard mmap allows mapping memory regions of arbitrary size.
The mmap (and likewise the vm_* routines) in NS* and OS* only
operate on memory that is aligned to page boundaries and whose size
is a multiple of the page size.  For many uses this is not a problem.
For other uses (such as in msql) it is a show stopper.

If mSQL wrote pages out as full native pages and implemented an
offset+length reference scheme in its file IO, the current
implementation would work fine.  Unfortunately, when initializing
a new database, msql writes only the header information to a file
then mmaps that file.  Since the total length of the file is less
than 1 page, the mmap request fails.

I think there may also be another problem, but it has been so long
that I forgot.  I am not sure whether a MAP_SHARED will actually
flush pages to disk when information is modified.  The data will
be correctly shared among the participating processses but I forget
whether or not one process will have to explicitly write some pages
to make the new data persistent.

Since mmap was a late addition in 4.3, but a core component of 4.4
I am hopeful that truly compatible versions of both mmap and munmap
will be present in Rhapsody.
-- 
  ___ ___ | James E. Quick                     jq@quick.com 
   / /  / | Quick & Associates                 NeXTMail O.K.
\_/ (_\/  |    Apple, we know the song's not written yet,
       )  |    but could you at least hum a few more bars? 
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From: Alan Dail 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.hardware,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Prelude to Rhapsody on Virtual PC
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 11:07:06 -0400
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Hi,

I bought Virtual PC for the sole purpose of running the Prelude to
Rhapsody release of OpenStep, but after 5 days of trying, I cannot get
it to install.  I created a 350 meg drive, run in a 60 meg partition,
start the installation, after an hour or two I make it to the point
where I eject the installation floppy and reboot so that I can configure
my system and complete the installation.  after annother two hours
(which is MUCH longer than I expected this part to take), I get the
message that the reboot is complete, but never get a login window or the
configuration app.  It just sits there forever saying the reboot is
complete without doing anything else.  Has anyone been able to install
OpenStep with Virtual PC and does anyone have any clue as to what could
be the problem.

I tried calling Connectix and was first told that they don't offer
support for OpenStep and was then told that they would refer my call to
their level 2 support people, but that it will take at least a week for
someone to get back to me.

I would greatly appreciate any help that anyone could offer as I really
need to get this installed before Wednesday.  I have a PowerMac 8500/120
running system 7.6.1 with 80 megs of RAM, a PC Compatibility Card, a DAT
tape drive (I mention this because it appears when I try to boot
OpenStep in verbose mode that it is configuring a tape drive, which I
didn't expect).

Please respond via email as my internet provider loses more news
postings than it recieves, so I will likely never see the reply if y ou
only respond via the newsgroup.

Thanks!

Alan Dail, developer

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From: Ken MacLeod 
Newsgroups: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.programmer.games,comp.sys.mac.programmer.misc,comp.sys.next.advocacy,comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Re: GX on HyperCard (Was Re: Amelio & Hancock Leave Apple
Date: 11 Jul 1997 17:06:43 -0500
Organization: PSINet
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"Lawson English"  writes:

> "GX competes with DPS and
> therefore must go" is the attitude that I have picked up. Some have
> suggested that this is pure paranoia, and perhaps it is. Not all decisions
> are based on greed and shortsightedness.

"GX and DPS overlap in a lot of areas and DPS already exists in
OpenStep/Rhapsody so we'll go with that and merge in features from GX"
is both the attitude and public statement that I've picked up.  And
that makes a lot of sense when you think of the whole framework that
already exists.

It'll be interesting to see how Latitude handles some of the
technologies like GX.  GX, like QuickTime and OpenDoc, was developed
in Apple's period when they were writing for two OSs (MacOS and
Copland) and so isn't intricately tied into the lower level MacOS API
and should be fairly easy to port to Rhapsody.

> Well, I just crashed the Mac while adding a new library function of my own
> to the list of available functions so I'm taking a break...

Funny you should mention that, I was just thinking how much
faster/more convenient writing MacOS programs will be in the Blue Box.
Since you can have multiple Blue Box images, you can create tailored
MacOS systems for use in development, put it to sleep, and then clone
it every time you need to restart.  You'd be recovered from a crash in
seconds.

-- 
  Ken MacLeod
  ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us
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From: jacob
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Subject: Asian Ladies
Date: 13 Jul 1997 19:27:03 GMT
Organization: World Access/Planet Internet
Message-ID: <5qba67$rtk@halley.pi.net>
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I've found the pefect site with nude Asian ladies.
Much more than you can find in any newsgroup.

http://home.pi.net/~sappie/playboy.htm






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Original Headers:

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Subject: Lottery FANS! Read This!!!
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From: a18@a.a
Subject: $$$$$ NEW SYSTEM, BETTER THAN "ADD ME TO YOUR MAILING LIST" $$$$$$
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I have participated in the standard "Please put me on your mailing list" letter and found it to be worth
my time (I get 1 or 2 handfulls or letters every day) but I also found that it's results were nowhere
near what I expected due mainly to people not sending in the money but rather spreading the letter
without paying for it. I participated in that mainly as an experiment and found that there are a
tremendous amount of people willing to do it. I thought about how to, first, eliminate the "non-pay"
problem and, second, to create a monthly income. I came upon the solution and decided to start a new
program. I decided that there were 3 things that this new program needed in order to work for everyone
and they were: 1.) It needed to be very simple and easy for anyone to do, and, 2.) It needed to be
inexpensive enough for even the poorest of people, and, 3.) It needs to be DUPLICATABLE. I think you
will find this program to meet those requirements. I have put lots of thought into it and I ask that you 
PLEASE do NOT modify it. This WILL WORK if you follow it. This system is based on the unconditional
"loaning" of money to people. Simply say, "I am loaning you this $2 as an act of goodwill to help you in 
your financial need, you may pay me back if and when you can." You should find 5 or more people who will 
send $2 to the 5 needy people on this list AND MAINTAIN 5 or more people who will do the same. You
should put your name on postition number 5 and move each of the other names up one position. The name
originally on position number 1 gets removed. You should be able to contact each of your 5 or more
people to see if they are going to be active this month. If not then you need to find one or more people 
to be active in order to maintain at least 5. I am not speaking about the 5 people on the list but
rather the 5 new people you have found. I would highly suggest having more than 5 in any given month.
Now I know that this would be extremely easy to do since I can think of at least 20 people myself who
will do this consistently. The key is to maintain at LEAST 5 active people. If you don't then you can't
expect for the rest of the people to do it either and you can't expect for this system to work. This
system is a no-brainer, and if someone can't afford the $10 + stamps for this then they truly ARE in
need! It is OK to use the internet to find people but I think it would be easier to find them through
people that you know. This way it will be easier for you to contact them every month to ask about their
being active, unless someone is willing to give you their e-mail address. Here are some numbers:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 4 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 4 people = $8,  Total now $8
Level 2:  $2 x 16 people = $32, Total now $8 + $32 = $40
Level 3:  $2 x 64 people = $128, Total now $8 + $32 + $128 = $168
Level 4:  $2 x 256 people = $512, Total now $8 + $32 + $128 + $512 = $680
Level 5:  $2 x 1024 people = $2048, Total now $8 + $32 + $128 + $512 + $2048 = *** $2728 ***

Yearly income: $2728 x 12 months = $32,736
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 5 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 5 people = $10,  Total now $10
Level 2:  $2 x 25 people = $50, Total now $10 + $50 = $60
Level 3:  $2 x 125 people = $250, Total now $10 + $50 + $250 = $310
Level 4:  $2 x 500 people = $1000, Total now $10 + $50 + $250 + $1000 = $1310
Level 5:  $2 x 2500 people = $5000, Total now $10 + $50 + $250 + $1000 + $5000 = *** $6310 ***

Yearly income: $6310 x 12 months = $75,720
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 6 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 6 people = $12,  Total now $12
Level 2:  $2 x 36 people = $72, Total now $12 + $72 = $84
Level 3:  $2 x 216 people = $432, Total now $12 + $72 + $432 = $516
Level 4:  $2 x 1296 people = $2592, Total now $12 + $72 + $432 + $2592 = $3108
Level 5:  $2 x 7776 people = $15552, Total now $12 + $72 + $432 + $2592 + $15552 = *** $18660 ***

Yearly income: $18660 x 12 months = $223,920
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 7 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 7 people = $14,  Total now $14
Level 2:  $2 x 49 people = $98, Total now $14 + $98 = $112
Level 3:  $2 x 343 people = $686, Total now $14 + $98 + $686 = $798
Level 4:  $2 x 2401 people = $4802, Total now $14 + $98 + $686 + $4802 = $5600
Level 5:  $2 x 16807 people = $33614, Total now $14 + $98 + $686 + $4802 + $33614 = *** $39214 ***

Yearly income: $39214 x 12 months = $470,568
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep in mind that it does not matter what day of the month that someone chooses to be active. It DOES
matter that they are active on that day EVERY month. The key to this is DUPLICATION! You must treat this 
as a business. If you treat it like a hobby that is how it will treat you. You could even organize small 
meetings with your people and their prospects and work with your leaders.
Think of how easy this would be for you, how reasonable this is, and of how good the chances are of it
working for you. You may need to hire someone to open all the envelopes.

NOTE: I decided on $2 instead of $1 because it is more feasible and it won't matter much for someone to
send $2 as opposed to $1. Also I was against $5 as that becomes too expensive to duplicate.

Mail $2 every month with a piece of paper saying "I am loaning you this $2 as an act of goodwill to help 
you in your financial need, you may pay me back if and when you can" to the following needy people:


#1 Robert Jezil
   114 Jefferson Ave.
   Slidell, LA 70460

#2 Phil Walther Jr.
   9495 Annapolis Lane North
   Maple Grove, MN 55369

#3 C. E. Burkman
   170 University Ave. W
   Suite 12-129
   Waterloo, Ontario
   N2L 3E9

#4 A. Bailey
   1207 Reeves Road
   Plainfield, IN 46168

#5 J. Martin
   P.O. Box 2292
   Reston, Va. 20195  

####################################################################
From: a16@a.a
Subject: $$$$$ LOAN BUSINESS, EASY MONTHLY INCOME, NO BRAINER $$$$$
Newsgroups: comp.sys.next.programmer
Organization: 9
NNTP-Posting-Host: inselgate-u.unibe.ch
Message-ID: <33c9248e.0@news.unibe.ch>
Date: 13 Jul 97 18:55:10 GMT
Path: news.informatik.uni-muenchen.de!lrz-muenchen.de!informatik.tu-muenchen.de!fu-berlin.de!nntprelay.mathworks.com!europa.clark.net!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!rill.news.pipex.net!pipex!join.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!in2p3.fr!news-ge.switch.ch!swsbe6.switch.ch!news.unibe.ch!inselgate-u.unibe.ch
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I have participated in the standard "Please put me on your mailing list" letter and found it to be worth
my time (I get 1 or 2 handfulls or letters every day) but I also found that it's results were nowhere
near what I expected due mainly to people not sending in the money but rather spreading the letter
without paying for it. I participated in that mainly as an experiment and found that there are a
tremendous amount of people willing to do it. I thought about how to, first, eliminate the "non-pay"
problem and, second, to create a monthly income. I came upon the solution and decided to start a new
program. I decided that there were 3 things that this new program needed in order to work for everyone
and they were: 1.) It needed to be very simple and easy for anyone to do, and, 2.) It needed to be
inexpensive enough for even the poorest of people, and, 3.) It needs to be DUPLICATABLE. I think you
will find this program to meet those requirements. I have put lots of thought into it and I ask that you 
PLEASE do NOT modify it. This WILL WORK if you follow it. This system is based on the unconditional
"loaning" of money to people. Simply say, "I am loaning you this $2 as an act of goodwill to help you in 
your financial need, you may pay me back if and when you can." You should find 5 or more people who will 
send $2 to the 5 needy people on this list AND MAINTAIN 5 or more people who will do the same. You
should put your name on postition number 5 and move each of the other names up one position. The name
originally on position number 1 gets removed. You should be able to contact each of your 5 or more
people to see if they are going to be active this month. If not then you need to find one or more people 
to be active in order to maintain at least 5. I am not speaking about the 5 people on the list but
rather the 5 new people you have found. I would highly suggest having more than 5 in any given month.
Now I know that this would be extremely easy to do since I can think of at least 20 people myself who
will do this consistently. The key is to maintain at LEAST 5 active people. If you don't then you can't
expect for the rest of the people to do it either and you can't expect for this system to work. This
system is a no-brainer, and if someone can't afford the $10 + stamps for this then they truly ARE in
need! It is OK to use the internet to find people but I think it would be easier to find them through
people that you know. This way it will be easier for you to contact them every month to ask about their
being active, unless someone is willing to give you their e-mail address. Here are some numbers:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 4 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 4 people = $8,  Total now $8
Level 2:  $2 x 16 people = $32, Total now $8 + $32 = $40
Level 3:  $2 x 64 people = $128, Total now $8 + $32 + $128 = $168
Level 4:  $2 x 256 people = $512, Total now $8 + $32 + $128 + $512 = $680
Level 5:  $2 x 1024 people = $2048, Total now $8 + $32 + $128 + $512 + $2048 = *** $2728 ***

Yearly income: $2728 x 12 months = $32,736
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 5 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 5 people = $10,  Total now $10
Level 2:  $2 x 25 people = $50, Total now $10 + $50 = $60
Level 3:  $2 x 125 people = $250, Total now $10 + $50 + $250 = $310
Level 4:  $2 x 500 people = $1000, Total now $10 + $50 + $250 + $1000 = $1310
Level 5:  $2 x 2500 people = $5000, Total now $10 + $50 + $250 + $1000 + $5000 = *** $6310 ***

Yearly income: $6310 x 12 months = $75,720
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 6 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 6 people = $12,  Total now $12
Level 2:  $2 x 36 people = $72, Total now $12 + $72 = $84
Level 3:  $2 x 216 people = $432, Total now $12 + $72 + $432 = $516
Level 4:  $2 x 1296 people = $2592, Total now $12 + $72 + $432 + $2592 = $3108
Level 5:  $2 x 7776 people = $15552, Total now $12 + $72 + $432 + $2592 + $15552 = *** $18660 ***

Yearly income: $18660 x 12 months = $223,920
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly income model per level and total for maintaining 7 active members @ $2 each:

Level 1:  $2 x 7 people = $14,  Total now $14
Level 2:  $2 x 49 people = $98, Total now $14 + $98 = $112
Level 3:  $2 x 343 people = $686, Total now $14 + $98 + $686 = $798
Level 4:  $2 x 2401 people = $4802, Total now $14 + $98 + $686 + $4802 = $5600
Level 5:  $2 x 16807 people = $33614, Total now $14 + $98 + $686 + $4802 + $33614 = *** $39214 ***

Yearly income: $39214 x 12 months = $470,568
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep in mind that it does not matter what day of the month that someone chooses to be active. It DOES
matter that they are active on that day EVERY month. The key to this is DUPLICATION! You must treat this 
as a business. If you treat it like a hobby that is how it will treat you. You could even organize small 
meetings with your people and their prospects and work with your leaders.
Think of how easy this would be for you, how reasonable this is, and of how good the chances are of it
working for you. You may need to hire someone to open all the envelopes.

NOTE: I decided on $2 instead of $1 because it is more feasible and it won't matter much for someone to
send $2 as opposed to $1. Also I was against $5 as that becomes too expensive to duplicate.

Mail $2 every month with a piece of paper saying "I am loaning you this $2 as an act of goodwill to help 
you in your financial need, you may pay me back if and when you can" to the following needy people:


#1 Robert Jezil
   114 Jefferson Ave.
   Slidell, LA 70460

#2 Phil Walther Jr.
   9495 Annapolis Lane North
   Maple Grove, MN 55369

#3 C. E. Burkman
   170 University Ave. W
   Suite 12-129
   Waterloo, Ontario
   N2L 3E9

#4 A. Bailey
   1207 Reeves Road
   Plainfield, IN 46168

#5 J. Martin
   P.O. Box 2292
   Reston, Va. 20195