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Date: Sun 07-Apr-1989 19:48:12 From: Unknown Subject: NeXt Performance/Price ************************************************************** Let's be fair here. The NeXt has a real problem when it comes to computing power, but it still is a bargain. If you add up the cost of an optical disk and or tape drive for mass backup (>$3,000), the cost of a 9600baud model (>$600), the cost of Mathematica for a comparable system ($1,500), the cost of a display system (>$1,200), and the cost of a UNIX license (>$400), you will realize (1) that the MIPS, and a lot of other goodies of NeXt is almost free, and (2) that any comparable 88K system costs twice as much. In addition, NeXt's other peripherals are cheap. Still, I find three things unfortunate: - NeXt is EXTREMELY unccoperative with having small developers obtain machines to develop for them. If you aren't a big shot and still have a good idea, better get an 88K - NeXt doesn't speak. They don't tell anybody whether they intend to provide any upgrade paths for people buying the machine now, or whether they will be stuck eternally with machines working at about 1/4 the horsepower of the current RISC Technology. WILL THERE BE UPGRADE PATHS?? - FLP performance is miserable, and prevents competition with even an 80386/7 system. Some relief is on the horizon: Weitek offers an flp chip for use in a 68030. I haven't found out details yet, though. Maybe NeXt should bundle this chip instead of the 68882? In any case, you can always buy NeXt for its few bundled programs, and use it as a server to your computing workstation... :-) /Ivo Welch phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu >From: ajb@cs.brown.edu
Date: Sun 08-Apr-1989 05:49:26 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price In article <2648@tank.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: |Let's be fair here. The NeXt has a real problem when it comes to computing |power, but it still is a bargain. If you add up the cost of an optical disk and |or tape drive for mass backup (>$3,000), the cost of a 9600baud model (>$600), |the cost of Mathematica for a comparable system ($1,500), the cost of a display |system (>$1,200), and the cost of a UNIX license (>$400), you will realize (1) |that the MIPS, and a lot of other goodies of NeXt is almost free, and (2) that |any comparable 88K system costs twice as much. In addition, NeXt's other |peripherals are cheap. I disagree: * There is no reason to buy a backup device for a single system in this day and age. If you amortize the cost across many systems, the cost per workstation goes down considerably. * The NeXT machine does not provide a modem of any sort. Furthermore, many purchasers of Mac/Sun systems don't need or use a modem, so if it had one for cheap, it wouldn't enter into their purchasing decision. * I doubt that most users of the NeXT machine will ever use Mathematica except as a toy. If there were lots of people willing to pay the price you quote, I dare say Wolfram Research would be worth a bundle (and in fact the price would have come down). * Lots of users get by with a $600 display subsystem (university prices) on current Mac II's. I suspect the marginal gain for the NeXT display would be worth much less (in fact, you can look at the SuperMac and such to establish such prices -- but these only apply for those who choose to shell out the money). I predict that a lot of people aren't ever going to get a chance to try a NeXT machine unless the price per node (including disk service from a device with the performance of current technology) reaches $4000-$4500. This is about the cost (university prices) of a MacIIcx. I am sympathetic to the NeXT effort, and their box is certainly better in a number of respects, but MacII's are available today, and the startup costs (especially with an installed base of Mac hardware and software) are considerably lower. Tom >From: phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu
Date: Sun 08-Apr-1989 16:39:38 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price writes > If you amortize the [backup] cost across many systems, > the cost per workstation goes down considerably. True for you, false for me. Fact is, not everyone runs in a network maintained by a high-cost computer department. > * The NeXT machine does not provide a modem of any sort. Furthermore, > many purchasers of Mac/Sun systems don't need or use a modem, so if > it had one for cheap, it wouldn't enter into their purchasing decision. Yes and no. NeXt has hardware in it that allows someone to write a soft modem. For me, I need high-speed remote communications. > * I doubt that most users of the NeXT machine will ever use Mathematica > except as a toy. If there were lots of people willing to pay the price > you quote, I dare say Wolfram Research would be worth a bundle (and > in fact the price would have come down). Again, yes and no. I know lots of people seriously interested in Mathematica. My background in economics tells me that Wolfram's price discrimination practices makes perfect sense when it comes to maximizing revenue. > * Lots of users get by with a $600 display subsystem (university prices) > on current Mac II's. I know of LOTS o' people who would never go back to a small display after having used a big one. Almost all workstations, for example, recommend them. >...This is about the cost (university prices) of a MacIIcx. I am >sympathetic to the NeXT effort, and their box is certainly better in a >number of respects. Add in the price of A/UX, please. Then you get a box 1/2 the speed, a flaky implementation of UNIX, no OD, no nice screen, no Ethernet (just Apple-slow-talk) etc. Yes, Mac-II has more software. But non-DTP publishing software is sparse. Try running SAS, S, Fortran, Emacs, etc. Moreover, no alleviation is on the horizon. The Mac is just TOO difficult to program. At least, I see normal people being able to program NeXt. In sum, you complain about the bundling of many features into NeXt, which certainly does cost money, but also adds value. Sorry, that's personal preference. I am just trying to argue here that NeXt does offer value for money, even though it may be of lesser value to you. ivo >From: BruceH@cup.portal.com (Bruce Robert Henderson)
Date: Sun 09-Apr-1989 06:23:42 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes....... > - NeXt is EXTREMELY unccoperative with having small developers > obtain machines to develop for them. If you aren't a big > shot and still have a good idea, better get an 88K That is entirely UNTRUE!!!!!! I personally feel that NeXT evaluates each and ever application based on the company and the marketing niche. Let's face it... the demand in the beginning was overwhelming and they could only ship a few 0.8 machines, so they tried to put them in the places that they would do the most good. Even so, my former employers became a real live NeXT developer, even though we were not the size of Auto Desk [yes, a CAD company]. So I think that for the first 3 months they are doing just fine.... How hard was it to get an "Angel Fire" 88k system with Unix system V during the first 6 months after the 88k's announcement?? BruceH@cup.portal.com "May the cube be with you" >From: phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu
Date: Sun 09-Apr-1989 18:05:11 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price >> - NeXt is EXTREMELY unccoperative with having small developers >That is entirely UNTRUE!!!!!! I personally feel that NeXT evaluates >each and ever application based on the company and the marketing niche. Well, not being an established company with a product, a friend of mine and I wanted to talk to someone at NeXt about getting one of these cubes for designing a specific program. All we got was a secretary putting down our name. Even after specifically requesting repeatedly to talk to someone, we were informed that this was impossible. That was about 3 months ago. We haven't heard from NeXt yet. Similarly, a message to the only participant of NeXt on this net (Ali O.) was never even replied to with a hint who we should contact. Seems uncooperative to me... I wonder how you even started to talk to them. Are you big enough so that NeXt would contact you? Ivo >From: ali@polya.Stanford.EDU (Ali T. Ozer)
Date: Sun 09-Apr-1989 20:39:56 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price In article <2659@tank.uchicago.edu> phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: >That was about 3 months ago. We haven't heard from NeXt yet. Similarly, a >message to the only participant of NeXt on this net (Ali O.) was never even >replied to with a hint who we should contact. I try to reply to every mail message I get, even if my reply is in the form of "sorry I can't help you." If you've sent me a message and haven't gotten a reply, there are probably two reasons: Either my reply kept on bouncing back or I never got your message (highly likely as I do lose some unread email once in a while, due to a variety of reasons...). So, if you send me mail and I don't get back to you within a few days, feel free to ping me. (Note that there are areas I won't be able to help you with; if so, I'll simply let you know that is the case.) If you are curious about a developer application you sent a while ago, I can at least find out if it was received and/or reviewed. A reply normally goes out soon after an application is reviewed, whether or not the reply is positive or negative. Ali Ozer, NeXT Developer Support >From: isbell@boulder.Colorado.EDU (Art Isbell)
Date: Sun 10-Apr-1989 03:07:47 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price My experience with NeXT does not indicate unresponsiveness to "the little guy". I am merely a CS graduate student with an interest in *future* NeXT development work. CU has been slow to conclude a support contract with NeXT, so I wrote NeXT directly expressing my interest in becoming a NeXT developer (3475 Deer Creek Road, Palo Alto, CA 94304). NeXT returned a Registered Developer Program application relatively promptly which I completed and returned. Although I really don't expect to be accepted in the Registered Developer Program because of my lack of development experience, I am still within the 4-6 week application processing period, so I may yet be pleasantly surprised. So I would suggest that anyone interested in the NeXT Registered Developer Program should write, not call, NeXT. They may just be too busy to handle real time interactive (telephone) information requests, but they do seem to operate well in the batch mode (U.S. mail) at this time. Art Isbell >From: chari@nueces.UUCP (Chris Whatley)
Date: Sun 10-Apr-1989 03:45:08 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price In article <2659@tank.uchicago.edu>, phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes: > >> - NeXt is EXTREMELY unccoperative with having small developers > >That is entirely UNTRUE!!!!!! I personally feel that NeXT evaluates > >each and ever application based on the company and the marketing niche. > Well, not being an established company with a product, a friend of mine and I > wanted to talk to someone at NeXt about getting one of these cubes for > designing a specific program. All we got was a secretary putting down our name. > That was about 3 months ago. We haven't heard from NeXt yet. Similarly, a > message to the only participant of NeXt on this net (Ali O.) was never even > replied to with a hint who we should contact. I wouldn't complain about Ali. One of the Next guys here in Austin told me that he was astonished that Ali could do his job at Next and keep up such a presence on the Net, on BIX and elsewhere. I.E. it's not his job to answer questions on the net. Though, I do agree that Next should have an official "net-questions answer-guy" to help out. I do think that there are other, more proper channels for complaints and questions. I am a nobody as far as Next is concerned and they seem to be treating me rather well. I am not a developer yet, I have a machine now and have had it for almost 3 months. Since then, the people at the regional office here in Austin have not only answered questions for me on the phone but also have called me periodically to see how I like the machine. I am a college student and they know it! Do you call that bad service? The support system at the University of Texas seems to be working rather well too. My OD broke, I took it in and in less than four hours, I walked out with a new drive for free. the software support guys here are not quite up to speed on the Next and its specific quirks and bug/features but they usually find out what you need to know quickly even though they also run all the Unix systems on campus... no easy job. > Seems uncooperative to me... I wonder how you even started to talk to them. > Are you big enough so that NeXt would contact you? I'm not and they did anyway. > Ivo I'm not saying that you don't have anything to complain about. I just wanted to give Next some positive representation. Chris
Date: Sun 10-Apr-1989 05:55:20 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price phd_ivo@gsbacd.uchicago.edu writes....... >Yes, Mac-II has more software. But non-DTP publishing software is sparse. Try >running SAS, S, Fortran, Emacs, etc. Moreover, no alleviation is on the >horizon. The Mac is just TOO difficult to program. At least, I see normal >people being able to program NeXt. Once again, this is not true... The ammount of software available on the Mac is pretty impressive if you go beyond just what "Mac Looser" lists as it's top 10 every month. Does anyone out there on the mac see any need for SAS or EMACS??? NO WAY! because the mac IS NOT A WORKSTATION!!! Remember that.... The NeXT may not want to be a workstation. It may want to be more of a PC... and Every one would agree that the MPW editor or QUED is maybe not as powerful as EMACS, but the people who use it get a lot more done [ie... it's easy to use...] BruceH@cup.portal.com "May the cube be with you" >From: louie@trantor.umd.edu (Louis A. Mamakos)
Date: Sun 10-Apr-1989 13:35:34 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price In article <16964@cup.portal.com> BruceH@cup.portal.com (Bruce Robert Henderson) writes: >NO WAY! because the mac IS NOT A WORKSTATION!!! Remember that.... The NeXT may >not want to be a workstation. It may want to be more of a PC... If this is the case, then you can take mine, and all of the other NeXT machines on our campus back and refund our money. We don't need any more toy computers on this campus. NeXT is trying to compete against the DEC and SUNs of the world too.. And at least I can get source code for our DEC and SUN workstations. (Obigatory source code dead-horse beating). Louis A. Mamakos WA3YMH Internet: louie@TRANTOR.UMD.EDU University of Maryland, Computer Science Center - Systems Programming >From: feldman@umd5.umd.edu (Mark Feldman)
Date: Sun 12-Apr-1989 00:41:04 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price In article <56267@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>, blenko-tom@CS.YALE.EDU (Tom Blenko) writes: > * I doubt that most users of the NeXT machine will ever use Mathematica > except as a toy. If there were lots of people willing to pay the price I believe Tom you are missing the point... The point which was being made was the following: Remember that the items bundled with the NeXT machine came from a host of requirements generated by the Academic community. Please keep that in mind... That if you went to your on campus Apple rep and asked him to generate a price for a MacIICX with megapel display, Ethernet hard ware, 8 (eight) as in 4 times as much memory as comes standard on the Mac, a DSP 56001 board capable of providing 144 decibels of dynamic range, and a processing rate of 10 Mips (for the DSP that is), 256Meg of on line random access storage, and be sure to tell him that in the quote you would also like the following software IF it is available for the MAC at any price: UNIX NFS Objective C C Standard Berkeley Utilities Terminal Emulator Tools for your MAC DSP board Digital Librarian Electronic Mail Jot Write Now Mathematica SQL Database Server Allegro Common Lisp Websters Dictionary Thesaurus Oxford Dicitionary of Quotations Complete Works of Shakespeare Now How much would you pay?? The point I am trying to make, (now lets see what was the point).. oh yes the point is that yes, how much of the above do you absoulutely have to have to surrvive on Earth??? The answer is its up to you... ( I myself would die to get it..) but if you need (read want) to have the above, Apple is not the vendor Sun is not the vendor, and yes folks... DG is NOT the vendor. At 6500 dollars, NeXT is the vendor to fulfill the requirements of the academic community (read not only CS or EE people).. any flames.. well... /dev/null /Carl > > * Lots of users get by with a $600 display subsystem (university prices) Gee thats my goal in life as a user... to "get by"... > > Tom >From: jec@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (James E. Conley)
Date: Sun 15-Apr-1989 00:05:04 From: Unknown Subject: Re: NeXt Performance/Price BruceH@cup.portal.com (Bruce Robert Henderson) writes: >Let's get one thing straight. The concept behind a macintosh and your common workstation >are completely diffrent. The bottom line is ease of use. Unix is for computer geeks >only. [I am one!] The mac was a godsend for the people because it made software intuitive. Unix is for computer geeks only? Enter the '90s, Bruce. I work for a metropolitan newspaper that uses Unix-based Sun workstations, and the people who run them -- scheduling advertising and paginating the classified section -- are most definitely not computer geeks. Before long we'll replace the aging Atex news layout terminals on our news desk with Sun workstations. Of the dozen or so editors who will use them, I'm the only one who understands c=getchar(). A paper down in Texas has is buying a couple of hundred workstations and putting them on reporters' desks. Even before NeXT and the SPARCstation and Open Look, Unix workstations were showing up in stock brokerages. ----------- -or- stag!thelake!steve@pwcs.StPaul.GOV "A member of STdNET -- the ST Developers' Network" >From: wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew)
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